Tuesday Volume 540 21 February 2012 No. 266

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 21 February 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 723 21 FEBRUARY 2012 724

reviewed for potential savings following the Treasury-led House of Commons pilot exercise that I described, which was undertaken at Queen’s hospital, Romford.

Tuesday 21 February 2012 Oliver Colvile: Given that the PFI process has been proven to have flaws in delivering value for money for The House met at half-past Two o’clock taxpayers, what effect does my right hon. Friend feel that that will have on new commissioning boards? PRAYERS Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know from the very good work being done by the developing clinical [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] commissioning groups in Plymouth that they have a responsibility to use their budgets to deliver the best BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS care for the population they serve. It is not their responsibility to manage the finances of their hospitals LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR or other providers; that is the responsibility of the LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) strategic health authorities for NHS trusts and of Monitor for foundation trusts. In the future, it will be made very TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL clear that the providers of health care services will be PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) regulated for their sustainability, viability and continuity Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday of services but will not pass those costs on to the 28 February (Standing Order No. 20). clinical commissioning groups. The clinical commissioning groups should understand that it is their responsibility to ensure that patients get access to good care.

Oral Answers to Questions Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The Secretary of State will recall that he cancelled the new hospital planned for my area shortly after the general election. HEALTH Will he advise the House how many hospitals the Government are building that use models other than The Secretary of State was asked— PFI? Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will recall that his PFI Debt (NHS Hospitals) foundation trust was looking to receive more than £400 million in capital grant from the Department, 1. Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): What steps he is which went completely contrary to the foundation trust taking to address levels of PFI debt in NHS hospitals; model introduced under the previous Government. I and if he will make a statement. [95312] pay credit to North Tees and Hartlepool trust, which is 9. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) developing a better and more practical solution than (Con): What steps he is taking to address levels of PFI that which it pursued before the election—many of the debt in NHS hospitals; and if he will make a statement. projects planned before the election were unviable. The [95320] hon. Gentleman will know that projects are going ahead, and last November, together with the Treasury, we The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): published a comprehensive call for reform of PFI. We The previous Government left 102 hospital projects achieve public-private partnerships and use private sector with £67 billion of PFI debts. We have worked closely expertise and innovation, but on a value-for-money with NHS organisations for which PFI affordability is basis. an issue to identify solutions for them, which have included joint working with the Treasury to reduce the Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): John Appleby of costs of PFI contracts. Despite that, some trusts have the King’s Fund says that PFI represents less than unaffordable PFI obligations. On 3 February I announced 1% of the total annual turnover of £115 billion. Does how each of them could access ongoing Government the Secretary of State agree? support to help meet those costs. Mr Lansley: I gave the hon. Lady the figure: £67 billion Chris Kelly: I thank my right hon. Friend for that of debt. Seven NHS trusts and foundation trusts are answer. Russells Hall hospital was expanded in 2003, clearly unviable because of the debt that was left them but still has £1.8 billion of PFI debt attached to it—debt by the Labour Government. which will not be paid off until 2042. What steps is he taking to help reduce the PFI costs for hospitals such as John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Is the Secretary of mine that have not been completely crippled by Labour’s State confident that subsidising hospitals burdened with PFI and therefore do not qualify for central support, PFI will not be deemed anti-competitive under forthcoming but none the less have high levels of debt? legislation, or state aid under EU legislation? Has he taken appropriate legal advice? Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who illustrates the precise issue with what Labour left. Labour Mr Lansley: I always act on advice, and I am absolutely talked of building new hospitals but left this enormous clear that the support we have set out for NHS trusts mortgage, in effect, of £67 billion. He refers to Russells and foundation trusts will not fall foul of anti-competitive Hall hospital, which, like others, is having its contracts procedures. 725 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 726

NHS Reorganisation services in the NHS right now. Why does the Minister not put patients before his, the Secretary of State’s and 2. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What recent the Prime Minister’s pride, drop this unwanted Bill, and assessment he has made of the potential risks of NHS use some of the money it would save to protect those reorganisation. [95313] 6,000 nursing posts?

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Mr Burns: I have to say that, unfortunately, Burns): The Department monitors risks associated with notwithstanding what the hon. Gentleman thought was the implementation of the health and social care reform a rather clever way of describing my answers, his figures programme on an ongoing basis. are factually incorrect. As Jim Callaghan once said, an David Wright: “An open, transparent NHS is a safer inaccuracy can be halfway round the world before truth NHS”: not my words, but those of the Secretary of gets its boots on. The facts are these: there are 896— State for Health. Is it not amazing that Ministers do not [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman would listen to want to release documentation relating to the reorganisation the answer he asked for, he might learn something and of the NHS? Is it not an absolute scandal that they will stop making misrepresentations. There are 86 more not publish the documentation? Is it not the fact that midwives working in the NHS—[HON.MEMBERS: “86?”]— the reorganisation of the NHS is looking a bit like the 896, which is an increase of 4%. There are 4,175 more Norwegian blue? Should it not shuffle off the perch? doctors working in the NHS: an increase of 4%. There are 15,104 fewer administrators working in the NHS—a Mr Burns: No, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. As he, decrease of 7.4%—and 5,833 fewer managers. There are or certainly the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy more doctors. There are more midwives. There are Burnham), will know, the risk register is an ongoing fewer administrators. document—discussions between Ministers and civil servants on the formulation, implementation and transition of Private Health Care policies—and it would be wrong, in my opinion, for it to be published. That is why my right hon. Friend the 3. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent Secretary of State appealed to the tribunal following assessment he has made of the future of private health the decision of the Information Commissioner, in line care. [95314] with the precedent adopted by Secretaries of State in the Labour Government in both the Department of Health and the Treasury. 6. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the future of private David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the health care. [95317] Minister agree that the risk of not reorganising would be the longer waiting lists, longer waits for ambulances 13. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): and lower access to life-prolonging drugs that we currently What assessment he has made of the involvement of see in socialist-dominated Wales under the Assembly? the private health care sector in the NHS. [95324]

Mr Burns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and of The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon course he speaks from the authority of living in a Burns): The Department has made no assessment of the country that has a Labour Administration, where we future of private health care. This is not the role of the see spending cut, waiting times and lists rising, and Department of Health. The private sector has always utter chaos in the quality of care for patients. provided services to the NHS and the Department Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Minister will know monitors trends where it does so—for example, the that large numbers of people from Wales, particularly number of NHS patients choosing a private provider north Wales, access treatment in England. What assessment under patient choice. has he made of the risks to such treatment if the legislation goes through? Jessica Morden: Given that the Prime Minister said there would be no top-down reorganisation of the Mr Burns: If the hon. Gentleman is trying to tease NHS, the coalition agreement ruled it out and nobody out of me what is in the risk register, I am afraid he will voted for it, what exactly is the Secretary of State’s be unsuccessful, but if it is of any reassurance I can tell mandate for turning the NHS into a “fantastic business”, him that for people living close to the border there have as the Prime Minister has said? been arrangements between Wales and the English NHS and they will continue. Those people will benefit if Mr Burns: I am extremely sorry if the hon. Lady treated in England, because waiting times are falling in really believes the mantra that she has just spewed out. this country, unlike Wales where they are increasing. If she had read pages 45 and 46 of our manifesto, she would have seen that it says that we would introduce Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): What a pleasure it clinical commissioning groups, take away political micro- is to see the Secretary of State here today; he managed management from Whitehall, free up the NHS and cut to make his way in. bureaucracy, as we are doing, which will save £4.5 billion I am afraid I have to describe the Minister of State’s to reinvest in the health service. Our coalition colleagues, answer as codswallop. Let me give him an example of the Liberal Democrats, had in their manifesto the abolition one risk to the NHS that we already know about. of SHAs. So I have to tell the hon. Lady that she is The number of NHS nurses has fallen by 3,500 since the wrong. The test of what is going on and what is a general election, and that figure could be at least 6,000 by success is the fact that if one meets GPs around the the end of this Parliament. The Bill is damaging front-line country, they support commissioning for their patients. 727 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 728

Teresa Pearce: On the BBC’s “Newsnight”, the Minister Mr Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her of State stated that the Health and Social Care Bill question, because it might clarify some of the would turn the NHS into a “genuine market”. How misinformation being bandied around on the Opposition does this belief fit in with the NHS founding principle Benches. Any money generated by private patients or by that access should be based on need, not market forces? the private sector within the NHS must be spent on NHS patients, so it will benefit NHS patients and the Mr Burns: I am sorry—the hon. Lady has obviously NHS, and that is to be welcomed. not listened properly to me. It has been my guiding principle and my core belief from the day I entered Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): politics that we should have a national health service Does my right hon. Friend agree that collaboration free at the point of use for all those eligible to use it. In between the NHS and the independent sector can deliver no shape or form does the Bill, or any actions by this real benefits for both patients and the taxpayer? Government, compromise that core belief of mine. Mr Burns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because we need to drive up the quality of care. What we are Mr Brown: The Minister is aware that funding for the doing with the Health and Social Care Bill is closing a health service in Wales and Scotland is through the Barnett loophole so that there can be no favouritism towards formula. For every pound saved by the Government—in the private sector, so the travesty introduced under the other words, for every pound less spent per person in previous Government, including the right hon. Member England—there is a knock-on consequence for the budgets for Leigh (Andy Burnham), where independent treatment in Wales and Scotland. What assessment has he made centres had an advantage that put the NHS at a of the fact that he will be funding NHS provision from disadvantage in providing care, and were paid more private patient fees, rather than the public purse? than the NHS, will stop, because it is unacceptable.

Mr Burns: As the hon. Gentleman knows better than Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Part 3 of the I do, the running of the NHS in Scotland and Wales is a Health and Social Care Bill will introduce competition matter for the devolved authorities. I speak for the policy to the NHS by law for the first time in its history. English NHS, and I can tell him that that we have Does the Minister think that that is likely to lead to guaranteed that the budget of the NHS in England will more private care in this country or less? be a protected one for this Parliament in which there will be real-terms increases, albeit more modest than in Mr Burns: I am sorry, but the right hon. Gentleman, the past. But we have seen in Wales in particular a fall of who always asks this question, is wrong. We have not just over 8% in funding. That is the decision of a introduced competition into the NHS; it was there Labour Welsh Government. The moneys that are saved under the previous Administration. in the health service in England through cutting out bureaucracy and through greater effectiveness in delivering Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab) indicated dissent. care will be totally reinvested—100%—in the NHS in England. Mr Burns: It is a bit rich for the former Secretary of State to bleat about that. What I want is the finest Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I may have health care for patients so that they are treated more an interest—a remote one—in this question. I expect effectively and quickly and their long-term conditions my right hon. Friend would agree that every patient are managed in a way that enhances the patient experience. who chooses to have private health care rather than national health service care, for whatever reason, is one Hospital Management less case on the national health cost and care bases. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it may be appropriate 4. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North for the Treasury to do a cost-benefit analysis so as to Ipswich) (Con): What steps he is taking to address consider a tax encouragement for individuals, especially underperforming hospital management teams. [95315] those over 65, to take out private health insurance? The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): The performance of hospital management teams is the Mr Burns: I do not want to disappoint my hon. responsibility of their boards. Those are accountable to Friend, but I am afraid I do not agree with that. What strategic health authorities for NHS trusts, and foundation the Government have to concentrate on is giving the trusts are accountable to their governors to ensure that maximum amount of resources within the protected they comply with Monitor’s framework. As part of our budget to the provision of health care in this country, to work to strengthen NHS trusts so that they can reach ensure, enhance and improve the quality of care for foundation trust status, we have published guidance on patients in England. That is the priority, not providing strengthening trust boards, their clinical leadership and tax relief in any shape or form for people who use their management. We are further strengthening accountability choice for private health care. through quality accounts and open reporting so that the public can see the absolute and relative performance Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Professionals of all NHS service providers. working in the NHS told the Health and Social Care Bill Committee that income from private patients was Dr Poulter: I thank my right hon. Friend for that important to the development and improvement of answer. It is absolutely right that managers take NHS services. What steps will my right hon. Friend take responsibility for the decisions that they take at a local to ensure that that income benefits NHS patients? level on behalf of patients and are held accountable for 729 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 730 them. A doctor or nurse who fails in their duty can be Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): struck off, so there is clear accountability, but there Has the Minister seen an article today by the respected appears to be no clear accountability or traceability for journalist Polly Toynbee—[Laughter.] Respected by the decisions of hospital managers. Who will hold those the Prime Minister—[HON.MEMBERS: “Stop laughing.”] people properly to account when they have failed? I am not laughing at all—

Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend knows that the management Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the views of Polly of trusts should be accountable directly to their boards. Toynbee, as enunciated by Dame Joan. As I said, the management of foundation trusts are accountable, through their boards, to their governors. Dame Joan Ruddock: On a very serious issue, a An important point that arose in relation to Mid waiting list clerk of 17 years has just resigned because Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust is that we should she was asked to adopt a range of devious methods to ensure—we are looking at how to fulfil this—that there make sure that people coming up to the 18-week target is also a code of practice to which managers are held for treatment were taken off lists. Does the Minister accountable. He knows, as I do, that management must understand that patients will not always know whether be accountable through their boards. they have had proper treatment, and that it will be far too late to refer them to an ombudsman at some later Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): The Secretary date? of State has part-begun to answer this question, as he recently threatened to sack NHS boards that do not Anne Milton: I thank the right hon. Lady for her meet their financial and waiting time targets. The question question. I am devastated to say that I have not seen the is this: why is he abolishing those powers in the Health article to which she refers, but I am sure that I will. The and Social Care Bill? Is he really saying that governors Department has made it very clear to the NHS that of foundation trust hospitals have the power and clinical priority is and remains the main determinant of wherewithal to sack a board? when patients should be treated. When I was in opposition I made various visits to various hospitals and saw them Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady should know that we fiddling around at the edges, with admin staff forced to intend to enhance the powers of foundation trust governors, do things that they did not want to do, in order to tick but I am simply taking what was her Government’s boxes for the previous Government. policy before the election—that all NHS trusts should become foundation trusts, with the freedoms that go Mr Speaker: Right. Can we now speed up a bit? with that, and the responsibilities and accountability. We have a lot to get through, and I should like to We are putting that into place where her Government accommodate the interests of colleagues, so everybody failed. needs to tighten up.

NHS Constitution NHS Allergy Services

5. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): What 7. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What recourse patients have when denied facilities to which assessment he has made of the effectiveness of NHS they are entitled under the NHS constitution. [95316] allergy services. [95318]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul (Anne Milton): The patient may complain either to the Burstow): A number of reports have highlighted variations local organisation that provides the service or to the primary in NHS allergy services and a lack of integration throughout care trust. If it proves impossible to resolve the complaint primary, secondary and tertiary care. The Department locally, the complainant has the right to ask the health has funded the NHS in north-west England to pilot an service ombudsman to look into their case. They have integrated model of care, and the results of that work the right also to make a claim for judicial review if they have been widely disseminated. The Government expect think that they have been directly affected by an unlawful NHS commissioners to commission services to meet the act or decision of an NHS body. health needs of their local population and to deliver improving outcomes for patients. Penny Mordaunt: In the short time that I have been a Member, I have had to challenge my local trust over its Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for that reply. He policies on cancer drugs, metabolic surgery, IVF and a mentions the recent north-west allergy pilot, and its raft of other issues in order to get my constituents the report contains a number of recommendations, including treatment that their doctors say they need. When will all improved education for commissioners about the impact NHS patients in Portsmouth and elsewhere be able to of allergy on primary care, and the allocation of additional have treatment based on clinical need? specialists allergy training posts. How does he intend to act on those recommendations in order to improve Anne Milton: My hon. Friend’s constituents are fortunate services for millions of allergy sufferers? to have such a vigilant MP who has taken up their individual cases. Patients have the right to expect local Paul Burstow: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who I decisions on the funding of drugs and treatments to be know campaigns on these issues and has a parliamentary made rationally, following proper consideration of the reception on them later this week. She is absolutely evidence. I suggest that she, like many other Government right that we need to ensure that there are improvements Members, will not be going out to march to preserve the in the area, and that is why I can confirm today that PCTs, which often make flawed decisions. discussions are under way with clinical leaders on the 731 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 732 potential development of a tariff to cover allergy services Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman should know and the steps necessary to make that possible. On that the timing of the publication of Robert Francis’s training places, I can confirm also that the joint working public inquiry is a matter for the inquiry, not for me. It group, on which the Department, strategic health is pretty rich for him, who came to this Dispatch Box to authorities, NHS Employers, postgraduate medical deans disclaim all responsibility for what happened at Stafford and professional organisations sit, does look at those hospital, to accuse us of being responsible for something issues and make recommendations about additional like that. Something like that will not happen because places. our plans focus on quality for patients, which he failed to do. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What services is the Secretary of State setting up for professionals who have become allergic to his Health and Social Care Bill and Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): The Secretary of to him? State will be aware of the report today that more than 1.3 million diabetes patients have not been offered vital tests. Does that not re-emphasise the need for a plan Paul Burstow: That was a pretty limp attempt. One of post-2013, when the national service framework for the most striking things about this Question Time is diabetes comes to an end? how many Opposition Members are yet again suffering from another health problem—memory lapses. When it comes to the Labour party’s record in government, Mr Lansley: Yes, indeed. I share my hon. Friend’s £12 billion was wasted on a computer system that did view about the importance of this publication. For the not work, with which 60,000 nurses could have been first time, we are publishing the data so that we are recruited and employed for a decade. absolutely transparent about performance in this and other areas. It is wrong that there are primary care Patient Outcomes trusts that are failing to meet the nine standards of care that are set out. That is why we published the atlas of 8. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): What variation. By focusing on that variation and through progress he has made in improving outcomes for NHS the commissioners’ responsibility to meet the standards, patients. [95319] not least in the publication of the quality standards, we will deliver improving standards across the country. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): Last December, we published data against 30 indicators Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But in the new NHS outcomes framework, which has been the Secretary of State must surely be aware that, for supported enthusiastically by patients, by professionals seven weeks running since the new year, the NHS has and internationally. The data show that for 25 of the missed its target for 95% of patients to be seen within new measures, the NHS improved or maintained four hours at A and E. That is precisely what Labour performance, including MRSA infections being down warned would happen when this Government downgraded by half and C. difficile infections being down by 40% since the waiting times standard. Is it not clear that he has 2008-09. I expect continuing improvement over the lost control over waiting times while he focuses on the coming years, as the focus on outcomes drives change largest top-down reorganisation in the NHS’s history? and improvement. That is why he is losing public trust on the NHS. He should focus on what matters to people and drop the Iain Stewart: Campaigns such as “Be Clear on Cancer” Health and Social Care Bill. are invaluable in ensuring the early detection and treatment of serious conditions. Will the Secretary of State do what he can to ensure that there is proper co-operation Mr Lansley: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that the between charities and local hospitals about the timing average time that in-patients waited for treatment at of such campaigns, to ensure that the spike in referrals the time of the last election was 8.4—[Interruption.] that follows is dealt with as efficiently as possible? The hon. Gentleman asked a question and I am telling him the answer. The average time was 8.4 weeks. That Mr Lansley: I will indeed ensure that that happens. has gone down to 7.7 weeks. For out-patients, the We work closely with the cancer charities. We are working average waiting time was 4.3 weeks at the time of the with them as we roll out the campaign that was piloted election. That has gone down to 3.8 weeks. The number in the east of England to encourage the awareness of of patients waiting for more than 18 weeks at the time symptoms and the earlier diagnosis of bowel cancer. I of the election was— hope that we will ensure that the services, such as endoscopy services, are available to support that. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): A and E. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Is the Secretary of State aware of this week’s report from the distinguished Mr Lansley: I made it very clear after the election health academic at Exeter university, Dr Mike Williams, that, on clinical advice, we would relax the 98% target which states that his NHS upheaval is putting patient to 95%. Patients are being seen within four hours in A safety at risk and making a Mid Staffordshire-style and E far more consistently in England than in Wales, hospital scandal more likely? Given that, will he assure where there is a Labour Government. Let me remind the House that he will publish the findings of the Mid the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Staffordshire public inquiry in time to inform the final Gwynne) that we have more than halved the number of outcome of the Health and Social Care Bill, if it ever patients who wait more than a year for treatment since gets through this place? the election. 733 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 734

Cancer Care weeks or longer for one of the 15 key diagnostic tests, and that just five NHS trusts are responsible for about 10. Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): What 30% of all waits of six weeks or longer. We are working progress he has made on tackling inequalities in cancer specifically with those five trusts to bear down on those care. [95321] waits and ensure that people do not have to wait so long. Of course she is right to make her point about The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul waits, which is why the Government are focused on the Burstow): Through the national cancer equality initiative, issue and have sent in the additional support needed to we are working in partnership with patients, professionals, ensure that trusts deal with it. academics and the voluntary sector to take forward a range of projects, such as working with Macmillan Health and Social Care Bill Cancer Support and Age UK to tackle the under-treatment of older people, our launching of the “Cancer does not discriminate” campaign with black and minority ethnic 11. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): If he will withdraw groups and our funding of work to target lesbian and the Health and Social Care Bill. [95322] bisexual women with cervical screening. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Dan Jarvis: I am sure the Secretary of State and the Burns): No, Sir. Minister will acknowledge that cancer mortality rates are higher in my constituency than in his. Can he Andrew George: I respect the Minister, but massive therefore justify to my constituents why Barnsley primary opposition to the Bill is mounting at the same time as its care trust is being forced to spend £17 million not on meagre support is ebbing away. Any more rational addressing issues surrounding the inequality of cancer process would have resulted in the dignified withdrawal care but on delivering an undemocratic, unwanted and of the Bill long ago. Is there anything that would unnecessary top-down reorganisation of our NHS? persuade the Secretary of State—frankly, he should be answering this question—to change his mind? Paul Burstow: I say two things to the hon. Gentleman: first, that the reforms will actually release resources from back-office costs and put them back into the front Mr Burns: The straightforward answer is no, because line, which I hope all hon. Members want to happen; everyone, including the right hon. Member for Leigh and, secondly, that when it comes to our cancer strategy, (Andy Burnham), accepts that the NHS has to evolve to we committed additional resources in the spending keep up and meet its challenges. What matters to patients review to invest in cancer services. If he wants to raise is not who delivers their care but the quality of the care specific issues with me, I will be only too happy to that they receive, their experience of that care and the address them. dignity and respect with which they are treated at all times. Cutting bureaucracy by a third to reinvest £4.5 billion Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The in front-line services between now and 2015 is the way Minister will fully understand the importance of early forward. Frankly, if one goes and talks to doctors diagnosis in cancer outcomes and tackling cancer around the country, one finds that they wish that Labour’s inequalities. May I therefore urge the Government to party political squabbling would stop so that they can include the one-year outcome measure in the commissioning get on with implementing the modernisation programme. outcome framework, so that we can measure the performance of clinical commissioning groups? Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): The Minister talks about party politics. Is he not Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend, who chairs the all-party aware that not a day goes past without an organisation group on cancer, has been pursuing that issue vigorously. representing doctors and nurses coming out against his We certainly need to ensure that we use both proxy and Bill? Most recently, the Royal College of Physicians is other performance indicators on cancer outcomes, and having to hold an extraordinary general meeting because I will want to continue examining whether that indicator of pressure from its members. The Royal College of is the most appropriate one to tell us what we need to Paediatrics and Child Health is consulting its members. know about improvements in cancer outcomes performance. Why should anyone in this House support a Bill to which the men and women who work in the health Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The hon. Member service are so opposed and which even Tory Cabinet for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) is right that Ministers are briefing against? early diagnosis is crucial for treating cancer, and it is often very worrying for people to wait for their test results. Under the current Government, waiting times Mr Burns: I suspect that the hon. Lady does not get for diagnostic tests have soared. Will the Minister confirm out and about much to meet doctors who are beginning that the number of patients waiting more than six to commission care for their patients. If she did, she weeks for their test has more than doubled since May would know that the mantra she is repeating from 2010, the number waiting more than 13 weeks has more organisations that are not representative of doctors in than trebled and the average wait is up, too, by 28%? It this country—[Interruption.] is a simple question, so will he give us a simple answer—yes or no? Mr Speaker: Order. The Minister of State is such an emollient fellow that I cannot imagine why people are Paul Burstow: It was a somewhat longer question getting so worked up, but they are getting very worked than that, so I hope the hon. Lady will let me go a little up, and they must calm themselves. We are only on further than a yes or no. I tell her that at the end of Tuesday; we have got some time to go. Let us hear the December 2011 only 1.4% of patients were waiting six Minister. 735 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 736

Mr Burns: Very briefly, Mr Speaker, I can say to the £1.5 billion support fund, and we are working with hon. Lady that a number of the organisations that she 16 other trusts to address long-term sustainability. As I mentions are trade unions that do not represent the said, in November last year the Treasury announced views of GPs up and down the country who are actually plans for a complete reform of the current PFI model, engaged in implementing the modernisation by using public-private partnerships, private sector expertise commissioning care for their patients. and innovation, but at a value-for-money price for the taxpayer. Dementia Care Chris Skidmore: I thank the Secretary of State for 12. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What steps he is that answer. The new Southmead hospital in Bristol will taking to improve the standard of dementia care in cost over £400 million, to be funded by PFI, yet it will hospitals. [95323] take over 30 years, at £37 million per year, to pay that off. That cannot be good value for money for the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul taxpayer or for the NHS. What more can the Government Burstow): As many as four out of 10 people in hospital do to ensure that these contracts can be renegotiated in have dementia, and people with dementia stay longer in future? hospital. We know that there is much room for improvement. That is why we have set a new national Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will be aware of the goal for hospitals actively to identify people with dementia. difficulties involved in the contracts that we inherited; that is true for PFI, as well as for the NHS IT contracts Lorely Burt: According to the Royal College of and many others. We have to try to use PFI contracts Psychiatrists’ report on dementia care in hospitals, only more cost-effectively; on average, the Treasury exercise one in three staff said that they felt that their training demonstrated a 5% saving on their costs. Beyond that, and development in dementia was sufficient. What action we have to ensure that from now on the NHS delivers a is the Minister taking better to equip staff to be able to much more value-for-money approach to using private take care of dementia patients in future? sector expertise, including proper transfer of risk. Paul Burstow: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Training is certainly one of the issues highlighted by the Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): PFI enabled the audit. We are taking a number of steps. We are working building of many new hospitals and brought benefits to with the Royal College of Nursing, which has developed millions of patients. However, the Public Accounts an online dementia information resource; we have been Committee has found that lengthy procurement timetables working with Skills for Care and Skills for Health to led to increased costs. What will the Department do to provide a series of training workshops for staff; we have sharpen its capital funding procurement model to get a been working with Oxford Deanery to trial a new good deal for the taxpayer? approach to dementia education and training for GPs; and we are funding another audit to make sure that we Mr Lansley: That is a sensible question, and precisely keep track of the improvements that we expect to see why we are pursuing, as we said in November last year, across the NHS. a new approach to public-private partnership that does not entail the extreme costs, delays and burdens that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What discussions past PFI projects have left. We are working with projects— has the Minister had with universities such as Queen’s for example, one at Alder Hey in Liverpool—to ensure university in Belfast with regard to new treatments and that they demonstrate enhanced value for money compared medication for those suffering from dementia, and when with past PFI projects. will those advances filter through to patients?

Paul Burstow: I have not had such conversations with Health and Social Care Bill the university to which the hon. Gentleman refers. However, this Government, right from their first Budget, have indicated their commitment to prioritising research 15. Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): What recent into dementia—both the basic research that gives us the representations he has received from health care targets for detailed research and the translational research. professionals on the Health and Social Care Bill. We have put in place all the building blocks that will [95326] allow this country not only to maintain its pre-eminence but to accelerate the pace of research. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton): The Government have received a wide PFI Schemes range of representations throughout the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill, including from health care 14. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What professionals, the public and voluntary bodies, and the progress he has made on reducing the costs of PFI trade unions. schemes in the NHS. [95325] Mr Hepburn: The vast majority of people, whether The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): they work for or use the health service, see the Bill for We have made a lot of progress. All PFI schemes are exactly what it is: a Tory plan to privatise the national having their contracts reviewed for potential savings health service. When will the Minister listen to people, following a Treasury-led pilot exercise. We are providing stop trying to pull the wool over their eyes—it is not seven of the worst affected PFI schemes with access to a working—and scrap this tawdry Bill? 737 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 738

Anne Milton: The only bit of the hon. Gentleman’s The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul supplementary question that I recognise is a diatribe Burstow): My hon. Friend is right about the need to from the Labour party that perpetuates a myth about invest in early intervention and prevention. In addition the Bill and fails to understand that the Bill is about the to the £7.2 billion that we will invest this Parliament, public of this country.This is about the people—patients— this January we announced an extra £120 million for the getting the health care that they need and deserve. remainder of the year to support care services. Furthermore, we are funding, jointly with the Local Government Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): May I Association, work to support councils in delivering pass on the representation of a health care professional improved productivity and sharing best practice to ensure in my constituency—one of the general practitioners that they deliver improvements to services, and not just involved in the commissioning group—who said that he cuts. felt the Health and Social Care Bill had been written for GPs, and that it was perfect for improving care in our Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): The Secretary of State community? said that he would listen to doctors and nurses but yesterday shut the door of No. 10 Downing street in Anne Milton: My hon. Friend echoes many of the their faces. But now things take a sinister turn. Let me comments that I have heard as I have gone around the quote from a letter from an NHS director received last country. Without the Bill, we cannot strip out primary week by a respected clinician of many years’ standing: care trusts and strategic authorities, which will save “I understand that you are a signatory to a letter which £4.5 billion over this Parliament. I cannot see anybody highlights your personal concerns about the Health Bill. It is going out on a march to save PCTs and SHAs. The inappropriate for individuals to raise their personal concerns about the proposed Government reforms. You are therefore required public want the outcomes and the quality of care that to attend a meeting with the Chief Executive to explain and they deserve, which they were denied under the previous account for the actions you have recently taken.” Government. Will he confirm that it is now his policy to threaten NHS staff with disciplinary action if they speak out Topical Questions against his reorganisation?

Mr Speaker: I remind Members on both sides of the Mr Lansley: No, it is not my policy. I do not know the House—Back and Front Benchers alike—that topical letter to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, and if questions and answers must be brief. he had shown it to me beforehand I could have investigated it. Yesterday, I and the Prime Minister met doctors and T1. [95337] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): If he will medical professionals and they discussed precisely how make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. to improve services for patients. I went to Queen’s hospital in Romford and met nurses, midwives and The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): doctors working to make the trust one in which their My responsibility is to lead the NHS in delivering public can have confidence and, in due course, a foundation improved outcomes in England; to lead a public health trust. All these things—foundation trusts, clinical service that improves the health of the nation and commissioning, patient choice—used to be things that reduces health inequalities; and to lead the reform of he believed in. They are now things that we are achieving adult social care to support and protect vulnerable but which he has rejected. people. Andy Burnham: It is, it would seem, the Secretary of Nic Dakin: If the argument is that doctors are the State’s new top-down bullying policy, and it is happening best people to commission health and manage finances, right across the NHS. How does he reconcile that with why not listen to doctors themselves, who universally what he used to say about whistleblowing? I remind him reject the Government’s plans? Why not listen to the of what he once said: royal colleges and patients groups and drop the Bill? “The first lines of defence against bad practice are the doctors and nurses”, Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman just does not know who what is happening around the country. All over the “have a responsibility to their patients to raise concerns if they see country doctors taking clinical leadership in foundation risks to patient safety. And when they do, they should be reassured trusts and NHS trusts, and GPs and their nursing and that the Government stands full square behind them.” medical colleagues taking responsibility in the new clinical Full square behind them so that he can plunge the commissioning groups, are demonstrating that they can knife straight into their backs! The truth about his improve the quality of care for the patients they serve. mismanagement of the NHS is coming out: staff bullied They hear what is said by the hon. Gentleman and some into silence, professionals frozen out, crucial information of his colleagues and think they are completely out of in the risk register— touch with the world in which they live. Mr Speaker: Order. We get the gist. T5. [95342] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Mr Lansley: When the right hon. Gentleman has no Poole) (LD): I appreciate that the Government have argument, he resorts to abuse. allocated additional funding for social care, but what more will and can they do in the short term not only to T6. [95343] Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Dentists in address the current crisis in funding and ensure Ipswich are increasingly concerned about having to put that funding is used creatively and efficiently locally, right work done by dentists from outside the UK who but to cater for those with lower-level needs through have received temporary registration from the General preventive measures and early intervention? Dental Council, causing yet more cost to the NHS and 739 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 740 trouble for those receiving care. How will Ministers Mr Lansley: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question, measure the quality of those receiving temporary and I am glad to say that I had a useful meeting with registration? Mark Goldring of Mencap. I have read his report and, in response to what the hon. Lady has said, I would be glad to write to her and put a copy in the Library. Paul Burstow: The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue that we are discussing with the GDC. The council’s T8. [95345] Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): Is my work on revalidation will ensure that the work of those right hon. Friend as concerned as I am that the employment supervising foreign dentists and, where appropriate, tribunal of the former United Lincolnshire Hospitals foreign dentists themselves is properly covered. Trust chief executive Gary Walker ended in secrecy? Does he agree that the NHS should stop using public T2. [95338] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): money to impose gagging orders to suppress information Given that managed clinical networks for neuromuscular that is not only in the public interest, but that impacts conditions can help to reduce the number of unplanned on patient safety? hospital admissions for patients with life-shortening illnesses and save the NHS money, will the Secretary of Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know that it is the State commit to establishing such networks with funding policy of the NHS not to use compensation agreements from the NHS Commissioning Board? in order to suppress information that is in the public interest, and I will certainly write to him about the case that he raises. Mr Lansley: As we have set out clearly, we want to promote clinical networks more widely, not just in T4. [95341] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Before relation to cancer and stroke, as has been the case in the the election, the Conservative party and the then shadow past. I shall write to the hon. Lady about whether it Health Secretary received substantial donations from would be appropriate for neuromuscular conditions the chairman of the private health company Care UK and whether it is embraced in any plans that the NHS and his wife. Does he agree with the then Liberal Commissioning Board and commissioning groups have Democrat health spokesman, the hon. Member for in place already. North Norfolk (Norman Lamb)—who has now been promoted to Minister—when he said: T7. [95344] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): “This is a staggering conflict of interest which completely Northamptonshire residents are rightly concerned that undermines the Tories’ claim that the NHS would be safe in their in the county in the last four months of 2011 the hands”? East Midlands ambulance service reached fewer than 69% of category A calls within eight minutes. The Mr Lansley: If not abuse, then smear. I never received target is 75%. What hope can my right hon. Friend any money personally from the chief executive of Care offer to local residents that this poor performance will UK. The Conservative party solicited and received rapidly improve? donations that were declared in the normal way. They had no influence, and we would never permit any such influence over our party’s policies. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns): I hope that I can give some reassurance to my T9. [95346] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I hon. Friend by telling him that East Midlands ambulance recently met Norwich and District Carers Forum to service is working with commissioners, hospital trusts, hear about the work that it is undertaking, together community health services and social care services in with GP surgeries in Norfolk, to help identify carers in taking measures to address its response time performance. the county. What recent steps have Ministers taken to NHS Milton Keynes and NHS Northamptonshire have help identify and support carers in Norwich and received £1.7 million in additional funding, and NHS elsewhere? Midlands and East advices me that some of that has been used to fund further measures to help improve Paul Burstow: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s EMAS response times, including through the provision question, and I know that a lot of work is being done of additional ambulance crews and the deployment of across the county of Norfolk between the NHS and hospital-ambulance liaison officers in each accident social care. Nationally, the Government are working and emergency department to improve handover and with the Royal College of General Practitioners, Carers turnaround times. UK, the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and Crossroads Care to recruit GP carers champions and volunteer T3. [95340] Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): carers ambassadors, and make them aware of the need The Secretary of State says he acts on advice. May I not just to identify carers, but to ensure that they take advise him to read the horrendous report from Mencap the necessary action to assess and provide appropriate that details the death of 74 people with learning disabilities support, so that carers get a break from their caring due to a lack of basic care and a lack of understanding responsibilities and have the opportunity both to stay in of the health care needs of people with learning disabilities? work, if that is what they want to do, and to have a life, Will he follow the advice of Mencap and ensure that the not just a caring responsibility. undergraduate and postgraduate training of doctors and nurses includes intensive training in the needs of Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): If I was people with learning disabilities, so that there will be no concerned only with the politics of the situation, I further unnecessary deaths of people with learning would be urging the Secretary of State to carry on with disabilities due to neglect in NHS hospitals? the Health and Social Care Bill, in view of the political 741 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 742 fallout. However, does he realise that the strength of provider. Those are the things that his Government opposition throughout country—certainly among the used to believe in, and they are the things that we are medical profession, as well as the public—is based on doing. There is no privatisation, no charging and no the fact that they believe that the national health service break-up of the NHS. There is only supporting the will be seriously undermined if the measure goes through? NHS. Why is he not willing to listen to the voices of people who are so concerned that the institution—which we all Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Ministers will believe is so necessary—will be threatened and damaged be aware of the Centre for Mental Health’s report last as a result of his measure? week, which showed that physical health outcomes are linked to mental health outcomes, and that both need to Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman should go back to be treated at the same time. Can the Minister update the last year and recall that not only did we consult on the House on the Department’s progress on implementing White Paper, but—following the listening exercise last its mental health strategy? year with dozens of independent health professionals, who conducted hundreds of meetings with thousands Paul Burstow: I can indeed. We will shortly be publishing of professionals across the service, who made a substantial a more detailed implementation plan showing the role series of recommendations, and with the Future Forum that the NHS Commissioning Board, the clinical clear that the principles of the Bill were supported, just commissioning groups and others will play, alongside as many organisations continue to say that they support the voluntary sector, in delivering the strategy. More them—we took on board and accepted those importantly, we are also doing work on long-term recommendations. That is why the Bill, which is in conditions that will begin, for the first time, to join up another place, was supported by a majority in this the way in which we commission physical and mental House and was supported by a majority there. health services. We have to do that in order to deliver better outcomes for people. Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): There has been much talk today about improving outcomes of patient care—when Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Every week in my we move beyond the politics—so will the Secretary of surgery, I hear more and more residents complaining State commend the excellent hyper-acute stroke service about having to wait too long for an operation, if they that he saw with me in Winchester just a few weeks ago? can get on to the waiting list at all. This top-down As he knows, the service rightly enjoys the support of reorganisation is clearly exacerbating the problem. Why the emerging care commissioning group. Indeed, he do not the Government just drop the Bill? also met those in the group and saw how positive they are about the changes. Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman is going to have to explain why the NHS’s performance is improving, and Mr Lansley: Yes, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend why it is better than it was at the election. We have cut for the invitation that he extended to me to visit Winchester, mixed-sex accommodation, more people have access to which is now forming part of the Hampshire Hospitals NHS dentistry and hospital infections are at a record NHS Foundation Trust and looking to do so very low. He talks about waiting times. The number of successfully. I share with him the optimism derived people waiting over a year for treatment has halved from a meeting with the members of the West Hampshire since the last election. The total number of people clinical commissioning group. They, like others across waiting beyond 18 weeks is lower than it was at the the country, are demonstrating how they will use the election, and the average wait for patients is lower than responsibilities that they will be given to improve care it was at the election. I am afraid that the premise of his for patients. question is completely wrong. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Following the closure of a Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): As the House specialist ME clinic in Bolton, will the Minister review will know, I have been a regular customer of the NHS the narrow NICE guidelines on the treatment of ME, over the last 12 years, and it hurts me to think of what is so that patients can get the outcomes that work for happening, after all the wonderful treatment that I had them, and so that the doctors providing such treatment for cancer, as well as a bypass and a hip replacement. I are not placed at risk of losing their licence? am still here to tell the story because of the treatment by those nurses and doctors. Please stop this savage attack Mr Lansley: My recollection is that NICE itself is on the NHS, and drop this dreadful Bill. undertaking a review of the guidelines relating to the commissioning and provision of services for ME. I will Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman clearly has no idea check to ensure that that is the case, and if I am wrong I of what is actually in the Bill or the modernisation will of course correct the record. I will write to the hon. process. It is only about simple things. It is about giving Gentleman in any case. It is not for Ministers to write patients information and choice. It is about empowering NICE guidelines; that is a matter for NICE to deal with doctors and nurses and health professionals, and it is independently. about strengthening the ability of the NHS to improve care in the future. That is all that it is about, and it cuts Several hon. Members rose— the cost of bureaucracy in so doing. It will enable us and the NHS to do the things that his Government Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues supported in the past—he might not have supported but, as usual, Health questions have been heavily them, but his friends did—including commissioning by oversubscribed. The House is in high spirits, and it is clinicians, patient choice and using the best qualified only Tuesday afternoon. 743 21 FEBRUARY 2012 Points of Order 744

Points of Order that I am responding on the basis of what I have been advised. I just want to say one other thing to the right hon. Gentleman, which is that I hope that nobody who 3.34 pm works in this House and serves its Members would ever Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): On suppose it is his or her role to dictate, to rule or in any a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wish to raise with you an sense to trump Members. Everybody is here to serve issue that goes to heart of the rights of hon. Members— Members, which should be a matter of pride. I am whether they have been elected here 11 times and are in genuinely saddened if the right hon. Gentleman feels let their 42nd year as an MP or whether they came to this down. I am happy to look into the matter further. I do House for the first time at the last election. The greatest not want him to be unhappy, and I hope he will take it right of hon. Members is freedom of speech within the in the right spirit if I gently add for his benefit and that rules of order. On that basis, I went to the Table Office of the House that I am relieved at least that at the point before questions yesterday to table an early-day motion at which he discovered against his expectations that his relating to the maltreatment and mistreatment of one of motion had not been tabled, I was not myself anywhere my constituents. I discussed it with the Clerk to whom I near him. handed the motion, and he told me that it would be printed today unless I heard from him meanwhile. Sir Gerald Kaufman: Further to my point of order, Mr Speaker. I should point out that my courtesy towards Not having heard from that Clerk meanwhile, I assumed you is maximal in comparison with any that I show to that the early-day motion would be printed, but when I anyone else in the country apart from Her Majesty the looked at the list, I found it was not there. With some Queen. difficulty, I then made further contact with the Table Office, a representative of which told me that the early-day That having been said, anyone reading the 120 words motion was still being examined to see whether it was in of my motion would have had to be hyper-critical to order. The Table Office had seven and a half hours imagine that it related in any way whatsoever to court yesterday and six hours today to look into it. It discussed proceedings or to the sub judice rule, and that being so, with me the basic question that it said needed answering— I hope that in future the Table Office will not take to whether the early-day motion contained any sub judice itself rights over what Members of Parliament themselves elements. It did not. I have found it impossible to get an have the right to say beyond what you yourself, Mr Speaker, answer, 25 hours after I tabled the motion, to whether it would accept. will be printed so that I can air my constituent’s grievance and raise it again. Mr Speaker: The role of the Table Office is to assist I have to say that I regard it as discourteous and the Speaker in upholding the rules of the House. I hope incompetent of the Table Office to have left the situation that that is widely understood. in this way on a matter that is crucial for any Members The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I of Parliament, whose servants the Table Office staff cannot debate this matter further now, and that it would are—they are not in charge of us; they serve us. That not be right to do so, but he has made his point very being the case, Mr Speaker, I ask you first to instruct clear. I have heard it, representatives of the office in the Table Office to print my motion and, secondly, to question have heard it, and I hope that that will suffice investigate why some people working in that Table for now. I will keep the matter under close review, and I Office believe that they have the right to dictate to am sure that the spirit of what the right hon. Gentleman Members of Parliament in carrying out their duties. has said will be respected.

Mr Speaker: I am sorry to learn of the right hon. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On a related Gentleman’s disappointment and of the sequence of point of order, Mr Speaker. events that he has relayed to the House. I hope it will be helpful to him if, on the basis of what I have been Mr Speaker: I will take a point of order from a advised thus far, I respond. Member who first arrived in the House four years I say to the right hon. Gentleman and the House that before the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton I have a duty to uphold the sub judice rule. I note what (Sir Gerald Kaufman). he said about that, but I have something to say. That rule applies equally to written as it does to oral proceedings, Mr Winnick: You have made a point that I was not and I expect the Table Office to support me in upholding going to make, Mr Speaker, except perhaps in passing. the rule by taking precautions to ensure that there is no I have the highest respect for my right hon. Friend the inadvertent breach of the rule. It can sometimes take a Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman). little time to check whether there are active proceedings His point of order illustrated that, having been in the in a particular case. I will take steps to assure myself House for nearly 42 years, he is still always willing on that the right hon. Gentleman’s motion has been treated act on behalf of his constituents, which is highly no differently from how one presented by any other commendable. I do not think that a single Member in Member would be treated in similar circumstances. the House would disagree with that. However, I stress the importance I attach to taking all However, given that my right hon. Friend was highly reasonable steps to ensure that the sub judice resolution critical of the Table Office, I wish to put on record that of the House is abided by at all times. during my years in this place, I have always found those I have been informed by the Table Office that the at the Table Office co-operative and courteous. I have Ministry of Justice has confirmed that there are no never found them rude at any stage. Had I done so, I active proceedings and that the right hon. Gentleman’s should have reported the matter to the Clerk of the early-day motion has been tabled. I hope he will understand House or to the Speaker, as the case might be. I look on 745 Points of Order21 FEBRUARY 2012 Points of Order 746 the Clerks of the House, as on the other Officers, as messages which are intended to disturb people going dedicated servants of the House of Commons who about their lawful occasions, not least the armed security serve the House of Commons, and I think that that guards who have to be on constant readiness in front of should be put on record. the Houses of Parliament?

Mr Speaker: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for has said, and I think that the Clerks who serve the his point of order. Certainly no concept of free speech House will appreciate it too. Perhaps we can leave it should mean that some people have a right to shout at there for today. the tops of their voices through an amplifier at other people irrespective of those other people’s wishes. The Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con) rose— point that the hon. Gentleman has made seems to me to be entirely reasonable; but the Leader of the House is Mr Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman stirring in his seat, and I feel certain that the House will wishes to raise an entirely separate and unrelated point want to hear what he has to say. of order. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I Dr Lewis: On an entirely separate and unrelated point share my hon. Friend’s concern, and I am planning to of order, Mr Speaker. No doubt you will recall the respond to the application to Westminster city council excellent work done by the Leader of the House—whom in terms of which I think he would approve. I am pleased to see sitting on the Front Bench at this moment—in relation to the question of the demonstrations Hon. Members: Hear, hear. in Parliament square. I believe that we have freedom of speech in the House, but that does not mean that we Mr Speaker: It sounds as if the Leader of the House have the freedom to shout and bawl our opinions incessantly may not be the only one, but we are grateful to him for whether people wish to hear them or not. I understand, what he has said. however, that an application has been made to Westminster city council to reinstate permission for amplified noise BILL PRESENTED to be used to broadcast, for hours on end, abusive and hostile political messages at this House, in the way that EUROPEAN CONVENTION ON HUMAN RIGHTS was done—causing maximum disturbance—by the late (TEMPORARY WITHDRAWAL)BILL Brian Haw, notwithstanding his lawyers’ assurances to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Westminster city council when they applied for a licence Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Andrew Turner, Mr that he would not use it to harass people going about Nigel Dodds, Mr William Cash, Mr Philip Hollobone, their normal work in the Chamber. Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Mr Douglas Carswell, May I ask, Mr Speaker, whether you have had any presented a Bill to make provision for the temporary indication of a statement from the Leader of the House withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European on whether he is willing to make representations to the Convention on Human Rights. city council that no requirement of freedom of speech Bill read for the First time; to be read a Second time on enables people to have the right to broadcast at top Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 308 ). volume, when no demonstration is taking place, political 747 21 FEBRUARY 2012 Road Safety (No. 3) 748

Road Safety (No. 3) they were below it. By reducing the limit we would send Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order a strong message to those people that they cannot even No. 23) risk one drink without potentially breaking the law and losing their licence for a minimum of 12 months. Of course this is not going stop the serial offenders who 3.45 pm will exceed the limit regardless—only enforcement will Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I deal with those people who show no regard for their beg to move, own or anyone else’s safety on the roads—but it would That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require drivers to send the message that even a small amount of alcohol is undertake an eye test when renewing a driving licence; to make simply not acceptable, and it would encourage far more provision to reduce the permitted blood alcohol level for drivers drivers not to drink at all when they are driving. from 80 mg per 100 ml of blood to 50 mg; to make the turning It is frightening to hear that 10% of all drivers would back of a vehicle milometer, except in specified circumstances, a fail their driving test if they retook, it simply because of criminal offence; to promote safe walking, cycling and use of public transport by children to and from school; and for connected poor eyesight. More than 50% of the population wear purposes. glasses, and the figure rises dramatically to more than 80% among the over-45s. According to the International My Bill, which is appropriately but rather unimaginatively Glaucoma Association in 2009, a person can lose 40% named the Road Safety (No. 3) Bill, has an overarching of their vision before they realise that they have a aim of improving safety on our roads for the benefit of problem. According to the RAC, one in three Britons all, through a reduction in the number of people drink- has such poor eyesight that they are unable to see driving; through a reduction in the number of people properly when driving, and 20% have had an accident as driving with poor eyesight; by improving the roadworthiness a result of poor vision. of vehicles; and through the promotion of measures to encourage and prioritise walking, cycling and the use of Evidence from the road safety charity Brake showed public transport. In the short time that I have, I will that 75% of drivers support compulsory eye tests for briefly outline the plans for the Bill, and why it would be drivers every five years. My Bill would introduce a important in helping to improve road safety. compulsory eye test on renewal of the 10-year photo The North review of the drink-drive limit recommended licence, with a commitment to review its effectiveness. a reduction in the limit from 80 mg to 50 mg, which Evidence from medical checks in Spain and Holland would bring us into line with most of Europe. This was shows that one driver in 10 aged 50, and one in six aged rejected by the Government, with the argument that we 70, drives with their eyesight not properly corrected. needed to concentrate our resources on tackling those We have all heard tragic individual stories. In 2010, drink-drivers over the 80 mg limit before focusing our two stories were prominent in the media. In one, an attention on those who drink more than 50 mg but almost blind 78-year-old driver killed a pedestrian and below the 80 mg level. The argument was that the in the other a driver of a heavy goods vehicle was Government were winning the battle, but there was still charged with driving with poor eyesight after he killed a work to be done. cyclist in London. A change in the law would help to Unfortunately we are not winning the battle, which is reduce the instances of driving with poor eyesight and why the Government need to look again at this issue. make drivers more sensitive to how serious a problem Recently published figures from the Christmas period poor eyesight can be. Compulsory eye-testing has the show that despite the number of people being tested support of a number of road safety organisations, and I going down, the number of people over the drink-drive am pleased to say that the cycling charity CTC strongly limit went up. In 2010, according to Department for the supports this measure. It has said: Transport figures, 250 people were killed and 1,230 seriously “the current legal framework around eye sight testing for drivers injured by drink-drivers. Statistically, drivers with a is utterly inadequate; ensuring a proper eyesight test at each blood alcohol level between 20 mg and 50 mg have a licence renewal would certainly improve matters.” three times greater risk of dying in a vehicle crash, and Some people might argue that the third element of are at least six times as likely to do so when their blood the Bill is less about road safety and more about tackling alcohol level is between 50 mg and 80 mg. When the fraud, but I would argue that it is about both. It is drink-drive limit was reduced in Australia, there was a estimated that car clocking costs British consumers a significant decrease in fatal accidents, including a massive whopping £580 million each year. The actual scale of 18% drop in Queensland. Assuming that a change in the the problem is difficult to judge because many cars have UK would have similar results, we would see a reduction their mileage reduced shortly before the first MOT at of 144 road deaths and 2,929 serious injuries. If we use three years and therefore do not show up in Government the data from Europe, the evidence suggests that deaths figures, thus masking the true cost. According to the could be reduced by a minimum of 77 a year to a BBC, more than 681,000 cars recorded a lower mileage maximum of 168, and injuries could be reduced by last year than they did in the previous year’s MOT, in between 3,611 and 15,832 in England and Wales. 2010, and HPI estimates that one in eight vehicles that it One of the major problems with the current alcohol checks has a mileage discrepancy. My Bill will make it a limit is that people do not really know what the current criminal offence to reduce the mileage on the clock and limit is. According to confused.com in 2011, 51% of help to bring to an end the deliberate practice of making people admitted that they did not know what the legal a car appear to be worth more than it actually is. alcohol limit was for driving. Even more worrying is According to the insurance company General Accident, that of the people who think they do know the limit, only 9% of people are confident that car clocking is not most do not actually know what amount of a particular a problem and 92% of people thought it should be drink will bring them to that limit. People are regularly treated more seriously by the law. Not only would my found to be over the limit who genuinely believed that Bill do that, but it would have a positive impact on road 749 Road Safety (No. 3) 21 FEBRUARY 2012 750

[Mr John Leech] Welfare Reform Bill Consideration of Lords message safety, because owners of vehicles would have confidence that the mileage on their vehicle was correct and that Mr Speaker: I must draw the attention of the House routine maintenance had been carried out at the appropriate to the fact that financial privilege is involved in all the mileage for the type of vehicle. Lords amendments. If the House agrees to the amendments, Lastly, but by no means least, my Bill seeks to make I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the roads safer for pedestrians and cyclists, putting a particular Journal. emphasis on children travelling to school. I have unashamedly incorporated elements of the Sustrans Clause 11 “Free Range Kids” campaign and The Times “Cities fit for cycling” campaign. My Bill seeks to give extra HOUSING COSTS priority to measures that promote walking and cycling, particularly encouraging children to get on their bikes. Nearly half of all kids want to cycle to school, but only 3.57 pm 2% do so. The Bill would set a target of 2% of the The Minister of State, Department for Work and Highways Agency budget being set aside for cycle Pensions (Chris Grayling): I beg to move, That this infrastructure, putting cycle safety at the heart of the House disagrees with Lords amendment 3B, and Lords driving test and introducing additional safety measures amendment 26B. to trucks and lorries. Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss In the previous Parliament, I introduced a ten-minute the following: rule Bill to reduce the default speed limit on local roads That this House does not insist on its amendment 19A, to 20 mph, but unfortunately it did not become law. and agrees with Lords amendments 17B to 17D and Although this Bill does not go that far, it would introduce 19B. a 20 mph limit on residential streets with no cycle lanes That this House agrees with Lords amendment 73BA. and around all schools. It would also introduce a duty in respect of all new residential streets to incorporate Chris Grayling: If I may, I shall deal first with cycle lanes and 20 mph limits in the design of the new amendments 17B to 17D and 19B, on employment and road. support allowance time-limiting, and amendment 73BA, Road accidents are the single biggest cause of accidental on child maintenance. The Government wish to accept death among five to 14-year-olds, and traffic causes these amendments. 50% of all accidental deaths of young people. About Amendments 17B to 17D and 19B do not change the 5,000 children under the age of 16 are killed or injured Government’s existing policy on the time-limiting of on our streets every year, with about 20% of those contributory ESA. The limit will remain at 365 days for accidents occurring on the way to and from school. those in the work-related activity group and will take People have only a 50% chance of surviving being hit at effect from April 2012. I believe that the limit strikes an 35 mph, but that increases to 97% when speed is reduced appropriate balance between the needs of sick and to 20 mph. Despite claims to the contrary by the self- disabled people and the interests of taxpayers who proclaimed road safety organisation the Association of contribute towards the cost. It will make a significant British Drivers which, in my opinion, does not appear contribution to reducing the fiscal deficit, which I remind to have any interest in road safety, 71% of adults hon. Members once again is the most pressing priority support 20 mph speed limits in residential areas and facing the coalition Government. We estimate that the only 15% of people are against them. one-year time limit will reduce expenditure by £1 billion It is time to put walking and cycling at the heart of a year by 2014-15. our policy making. By putting walking and cycling first, We have listened carefully over the course of the by making our cars safer and by ensuring that all debate, however. The amendments would allow a future drivers are fit to drive, we can make our streets safer and Government, if they could identify an appropriate funding a more welcoming environment to encourage people source, to increase the length of the time limit by order back on their feet and back on their bikes. rather than further primary legislation. We have considered that and decided that it is a sensible and appropriate use Question put and agreed to. of an order-making power and we are happy to accept Ordered, the amendments. That Mr John Leech, Dr Julian Huppert, Caroline Amendment 73BA clarifies some of the powers Lucas, Sir Bob Russell, Tessa Munt, Andrew George introduced by the previous Government under the Child and Julie Hilling present the Bill. Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 and gives examples of the provisions that may be made under Mr John Leech accordingly presented the Bill. regulations. I should stress again that it does not imply Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on any change to our proposed policies on charging. Friday 27 April and to be printed (Bill 307). Specifically, I highlight the fact that we maintain our commitment to a maximum application charge of £20 and to collection charges within the ranges set out in the January 2011 Green Paper. On Report in the Lords, we committed to undertake a review of the charging policy 30 months after the implementation of the powers, to understand their effect and impact. The amendment clarifies that if changes to 751 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 752 our approach are required following that review, we will To be of working age, claimants have to be under the have the ability to make them. Although our core qualifying age for pension credit, which will be 61 and a proposals on charging remain the same, the amendment half in April 2013. Will the Minister clarify whether, on ensures that in future—particularly following our the introduction of the change to occupancy in 2013, a review—we will be able to change the charging regime, couple claiming housing benefit are protected from the with specific reference to apportionment and waivers, if change if one of them has reached pension credit qualifying we deem such changes to be necessary. age, or will both need to do so? I deal now with housing, where I am afraid we do not agree with Lords amendments 3B and 26B. As you Chris Grayling: The approach we are taking across all indicated, Mr Speaker, the amendments infringe the our reforms is that if somebody in a household is of financial privileges of this House, and if they are rejected working age, we expect them to work. All our efforts that will be the reason given to the House of Lords. and the support we are putting in place are designed to ensure that people work and that households benefit Let me first ensure that the House is clear about the from an income from employment rather than otherwise. financial implications of the amendments. We know about the big financial challenges we face. Since we last As I said, the amendments would cost £100 million. debated the Bill, Moody’s has placed the UK’s triple A They are not modest amendments, as suggested in the credit rating on negative outlook and made it clear that other place. In fact, Lord Best, who proposed them, the Government’s strategy is necessary to retain the believed that they might cost even more—£150 million credibility of our nation in the international financial a year. Either way, it would significantly reduce the arena. That is not a context in which we can relax public estimated annual savings of £500 million. We simply do spending. We made it perfectly clear on 1 February, not have a blank cheque that will cover the costs of the when we last considered Lords amendments, that the amendments. earlier amendments, which could cost around £300 million To give their lordships credit, there was at least some a year, were unaffordable. The Government’s response acknowledgement in the other place that £100 million is to amendments costing £100 million, as these new “serious money.” I am glad we can agree on that point; amendments would, is no different. the amendments are certainly not modest. It is incumbent on us to do what we can to drive down the spiralling cost of housing benefit. Left unchecked, expenditure on 4pm housing benefit would reach £26 billion by 2014-15. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) The shadow Secretary of State is always complaining (Lab): When the Minister considers financial implications, about the cost of housing benefit, yet he and his party does he bear in mind the fact that the Government’s have been consistently hostile to measures that bring own calculations indicate that 66% of disabled people the cost under control. will bear the burden of an average loss of £13 a week? Is it any wonder that organisations such as Mencap are Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): appalled that it takes the House of Lords to point out Will my right hon. Friend confirm that foster carers will to us the unfairness of such proposed legislation? not be included in the new under-occupation rules because of the specific discretionary housing payment Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman needs to that will be made available to local authorities to compensate remember what the amendments are about. Large numbers foster carers to ensure that they do not end up unable to of people in our community are under-housed and continue their great work in our community? others are in temporary accommodation. We have formed the view that it is neither good value for the taxpayer Chris Grayling: I give my hon. Friend that assurance nor right for those people that we pay for those in social and pay tribute to him. I know that he has a deep housing to have spare rooms. That is the purpose of our knowledge of the sector. It is very important, but the amendments. approach that we have sought to take is that there should not be a one-size-fits-all solution. Where we can, we should localise and give discretion. There may be Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): If the Minister circumstances in which somebody is still a foster carer is successful and people move from homes that they and has a property that is much too large even for those under-occupy and other people move in, and assuming needs, but we want to make sure that we provide proper that the same proportion of people are on housing protection for those who carry out such a vital role in benefit, there will be no financial saving. Which is his our society. We are making substantial amounts of real argument? money available to local authorities so that they have the discretion to protect the people who are performing Chris Grayling: The hon. Lady simply has not thought that important role. things through properly. At the moment, we are paying expensive temporary accommodation costs, partly because Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): One concern that I the previous Government—her own party—had such a have in my constituency is that many people live in lamentable record in office in building social housing. overcrowded accommodation and have been waiting to When Opposition Members make those claims, they get accommodation with the space that they need. should remember how poorly they performed in that Across the country there are 250,000 people in that regard. position. Meanwhile there are empty-nesters rattling round in houses with spare rooms. Surely we should Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I seek clarification have an incentive for people with excess housing space from the Minister. The new under-occupancy rule will to move out and enable overcrowded families to have only apply to working-age housing benefit claimants. the space that they need. 753 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 754

Mr Speaker: Order. Before the Minister of State stock, there may be no alternative for people to move to. responds, may I remind the House that we have only an When funds are allocated to local authorities, will the hour for Lords amendments? After the Minister, there position of islands and remote communities be taken is another Front-Bench speech. There are Back Benchers into account? who wish to speak, so I exhort colleagues who are intervening to remember that they should do so briefly. Chris Grayling: We will certainly look very carefully at that. I give the hon. Gentleman that assurance, and Chris Grayling: Indeed, Mr Speaker, and I shall try to again we will talk to him in detail about those issues. be as rapid as I can for that reason. This latest amendment looks to protect certain groups It would be all too easy to bow to pressure to backtrack from the size criteria measure where they have one spare on these reforms, but we will not do that precisely for bedroom and no suitable offer of alternative the reasons set out by my hon. Friend the Member for accommodation has been made. However, I remind Dover (Charlie Elphicke). There is a real problem of hon. Members that we have already committed to providing people in temporary accommodation, and we also have extra help—£30 million—to some of those groups, about a million spare rooms being funded by housing particularly foster carers and disabled people living in benefit. We must sort out the situation and solve the adapted accommodation. That money can help around problem to which he rightly refers. These reforms are 40,000 claimants. We are not ignoring the fact that designed to do that. some people will find it hard and have sought to put safeguards in place. Our aspiration is to protect the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) most vulnerable in society while also dealing with the (LD): I am grateful to Ministers for their engagement broader challenge of under-occupation. There are a on this difficult but important issue. With reference to number of responses that individual households can families who cannot find suitable alternative smaller choose to make to this measure. accommodation but are in the categories that the Government have wisely exempted from the benefit cap, Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): will the Minister explain to me why they should be The Minister has sketched out for the House a number penalised and where they will find the money to meet of important concessions for groups that will be adversely the extra bill—potentially £750 a year? affected by this policy. When does he expect guidance on how discretionary housing payments will actually Chris Grayling: I know my right hon. Friend has work to be available for review by Members of this expressed concerns about the policy. Let me say to him House? that we will carry out detailed reviews of it, as I know he wishes us to do. We will look at the impact of the Chris Grayling: Of course, many of the local decisions policy. We have a year to work with the families involved, will be taken by local authorities, but we will provide and we are providing substantial sums. An additional information to the House as quickly as we can. We are £30 million was announced as part of the debate on aware that we have 12 months before the measure is in these measures, as well as the substantial amounts place and so will work quickly. Indeed, we are already available for discretionary housing payments. It is our working with local authorities to plan ahead and will be expectation that in most cases what we will see over the happy to make information available to the House in a next 12 months is a change of circumstances that addresses timely way as it becomes available. many of his concerns, but there will be discretionary It is all too easy to criticise this measure and propose funds available to local authorities so that in his constituency costly amendments, but I think that that serves to highlight and others they can deal with the kind of situation that the real challenges we face. What we propose is fair for he has described. the taxpayer and for tenants in the private sector who receive housing benefit based on the same size criteria. Simon Hughes: If the Bill goes through, but before There is no plausible fairer or affordable alternative. regulations are laid, will the Minister work with colleagues and local government to make sure that the people affected have certainty? The problem with discretionary Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Will the Minister payments is the uncertainty, and people who cannot help me to put this in context? Is he aware that there are work have enough uncertainty already. high earners living in social housing with excess bedrooms who really should make way for other people who need Chris Grayling: Let me give my right hon. Friend an the space? assurance that we will work closely with him on the process of reviewing the impacts and over the coming Chris Grayling: As we know, there are even people months we will continue our dialogue with him, which close to this place who still occupy social housing. It is has been very helpful and constructive, to make sure our view that, where possible, social housing should be that we make him aware of the approach that we are targeted at those on the lowest incomes, those who face taking and that we seek his input in that approach. I the greatest challenges and those who are perhaps struggling give him that assurance. in temporary accommodation. I think that those who are living in accommodation that is out of kilter with Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I am pleased their financial circumstances might think about their to hear my right hon. Friend say that there will be personal circumstances, as was discussed when this discretionary housing payments to take into account matter was before the House previously. particular circumstances. I draw his attention to the The average weekly reduction will be £14. Nearly particular circumstances of islands and very remote 80% of those affected are under-occupying their communities where, because of the nature of the housing accommodation by just one bedroom and so are likely 755 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 756 to see an average weekly reduction of £12. By comparison, time limit than one year. That is a very welcome change, for private sector tenants the average cost of an extra and I am grateful to Ministers for permitting it. The room is about £20 a week, based on local housing Government have made it clear that they have no intention allowance rates. What we are doing is introducing fairness of bringing forward such regulations, but the Bill will and consistency of treatment for social sector and private now at least allow a future, more fair-minded Government sector tenants alike. to do so, and I welcome that change very much. The Minister in the other place also gave some assurances Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Can the about people being treated for cancer, which has been Minister assure me that he and his Department are an important issue in this debate. His assurances were, working closely with the devolved Administrations, however, rather vague. They do not help people recovering especially the Minister for Social Development in Northern from strokes or from severe mental health problems, or Ireland, on his proposed reforms? others who have no chance at all of getting back into work within a year, but the assurances in respect of Chris Grayling: I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman cancer patients, in so far as they went, were helpful. that assurance. My noble Friend Lord Freud, who has Amendment 73BA, which the Government tabled, direct responsibility for housing benefit matters in the would allow them to waive charges for the parent with Department, is also responsible for liaising with the care when accessing the child support system in specified devolved Assemblies and so is having those kinds of circumstances. Again, we have no idea what those discussions all the time. circumstances will be, but the amendment is nevertheless helpful rather than unhelpful. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): In his discussions, There also needs to be movement on the policy will the Minister make it clear that the Scottish Government addressed by amendments 3B and 26B, which the Minister have pointed out that some 70,000 families will be before us still opposes. They have some perfectly reasonable affected by this proposal? There was a huge imbalance aims, to which attention has been drawn in this debate. between the 95,000 properties that are under-occupied Under-occupancy of social housing is a problem; many and the 26,000 that are over-occupied, and the cost to people are stuck—overcrowded—on housing waiting people in Scotland and the Scottish economy will be lists; fewer people under-occupying would help; and a around £54 billion a year. That does not seem to make workable penalty for people who refuse an offer of sense, particularly when he could not answer the point smaller, more suitable accommodation could achieve made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila that aim. Gilmore), which is that if his policy works there will be no under-occupancy to penalise. Mr Tom Clarke: I follow absolutely my right hon. Friend’s logic, but in the field of disability does he not Chris Grayling: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman recognise that in many cases the so-called extra room is check his facts. The total cost of housing benefit is there for a carer or for other physical reasons to help the £26 billion a year, so this cannot cost the Scottish disabled person? It is therefore pretty unacceptable to economy £54 billion a year. change that arrangement. Our Department and local authorities have a good track record of delivering housing benefit reform. I am Stephen Timms: My right hon. Friend is absolutely confident that these changes will be communicated and right, and that is why the Lords propose in their amendment delivered successfully in the same way the local housing an exemption for people in receipt of disability living allowance reforms were delivered last year. We will allowance, thereby addressing exactly that point. work hard to ensure that there is a smooth transition in Our original amendment would have penalised under- order to address the challenges and protect the most occupation in a workable way. If a tenant refused a vulnerable through discretionary payments. suitable offer of a smaller home, they would suffer the penalty. If, however, no smaller home were available, Several hon. Members rose— they would not suffer that penalty. Unfortunately, that amendment was defeated in our previous debate, but I Mr Speaker: We are extremely grateful to the Minister pay tribute to the 12 Liberal Democrat Members and of State for concluding so pithily, and I am deeply two Conservative Members who supported it. I am glad obliged to him for doing so entirely when I expected to see some of them in their places this afternoon. him to. Legal challenge to the Government’s policy seems inevitable, because it penalises people for a situation 4.15 pm that it is impossible for them to change. The amendment could not be reintroduced in the other place because the Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I hope that Government claimed financial privilege, so this afternoon Government Members think long and hard before simply we have in amendments 3B and 26B a much weaker voting down Lords amendments 3B and 26B, but at the proposal. It does, however, at least protect those, like outset let me comment on the other amendments, as the the people to whom my right hon. Friend has just Minister did. drawn attention, who will be hardest hit if the Government’s I want in particular to welcome the Government’s policy goes through. concession on time-limiting contributory employment The proposal would safeguard four tightly defined and support allowance for people in the work-related groups: first, people in the employment and support activity group. Amendments 17B to 17D and 19B provide allowance support group—those who are too ill to be in circumstances prescribed in regulations for a longer expected to return to work in the near future; secondly, 757 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 758

[Stephen Timms] That is the reality in many places. There simply will not be a one-bedroom home to move to. That will be the adults and children who receive disability living allowance case in the constituency of the right hon. Member for or its successor, the personal independence payment; Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who thirdly, war widows; and fourthly, foster carers, because intervened earlier, and in my constituency. Of course, for the purposes of housing benefit calculations foster the policy will not release a single one-bedroom home, children do not count towards a bedroom need. because one cannot under-occupy a home with one Let me underline how modest the proposal now is. bedroom. Many Members will take the view, for example, that war The couple in the example, in which one person has widows should not be penalised for having a spare terminal cancer, would see a cut of £12 a week or nearly bedroom. The proposal, however, would not protect £60 a month in their income. That is the average across war widows in that way. It simply says that no war the country. They would somehow have to make that up widow should be fined for under-occupying her home to their landlord from other income. The Department, unless she has been offered appropriate smaller no doubt trying to be helpful, gives some suggestions in accommodation. If such an offer has been made to her the impact assessment of how they might do that: and she has refused it, under the Lords amendments she would be penalised. The amendments would protect her “In these circumstances individuals may have to look further position until such an offer was made. Only tenants in afield for appropriately sized accommodation or move to the one of the four specific groups would have even that private sector, otherwise they shall need to meet the shortfall through other means such as employment, using savings or by safeguard. Everybody else who was under-occupying taking in a lodger or sub-tenant.” their social tenancy would, under the amendments, be penalised even if it was impossible for them to move to I ask the House to reflect on each of those three somewhere smaller. suggestions in the case of somebody with terminal The Child Poverty Action Group has highlighted an cancer. People in the ESA support group are, by definition, example of how similar rules currently apply in the not in a position to work. That is why the Government private rented sector, which highlights the point made have placed them in the support group. That suggestion by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, therefore does not help. The DWP suggests instead that Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). Let us consider a our terminally ill tenant in a two-bedroom flat should claimant who has two daughters, one of whom has take in a lodger to help pay the rent. One has to ask severe and uncontrollable epilepsy with frequent fits whether the people promoting these policies have ever during the night. Her social worker and occupational met anyone who will be affected by them. Of course, in therapist agree that the two girls need separate bedrooms. many cases, the social landlord would not permit somebody The claimant currently rents a three-bedroom house, to take in a lodger under the terms of their tenancy. The but housing benefit covers the cost of only a two-bedroom Department’s other suggestion is that they can use their house. The Lords amendments would fix that situation savings. People in receipt of income-related ESA do not for social housing because the daughter is in receipt of have very much saved—if they did, they would not disability living allowance. receive income-related ESA. I will now consider the hypothetical example of a Another alternative, as the impact assessment suggests, couple in which one person has terminal cancer, which is that the tenant will have to move out of their council puts them in the employment and support allowance home into the private sector. In that case, their housing support group for people who are not expected to work benefit will rise sharply. Where is the gain in forcing that again. That is one of the four specific groups that the to happen? The National Housing Federation, whose Lords amendments would protect. The couple have a members are very worried about the change that the spare bedroom in their two-bedroom council house Government insist on making, makes the point that because their child moved out recently. They would be happy to move to a one-bedroom council or housing “a couple with one child moving into the private sector from a three bed social flat in Crawley would be entitled to around association flat but none is available. Under the Minister’s £66 per week more in benefit to cover their additional housing policy, that couple will be penalised, on average by £12 a costs.” week. Under the amendments, because of the exceptional circumstances, they would not be penalised. That would The key point is that it will be impossible for many of be the modest and reasonable effect of the amendments those affected to avoid the penalty. If suitable alternative that the Lords agreed. accommodation can be offered to them, then fine, they The National Housing Federation tells us that 180,000 can move and will no longer be under-occupying, and social tenants in England are under-occupying two-bedroom their benefit will continue to cover their full rent. The homes, but that only 68,000 one-bedroom social homes Lords amendments specifically allow for that. However, became available to let in the year 2009-10. The impact if there is no smaller flat available, our cancer patient assessment from the Department for Work and Pensions, will just have to take the £60 a month hit. How can that which is well worth reading, states: be justified? “According to estimates from DCLG there is a surplus of The Minister will tell us, as he has before, that £30 million 3 bedroom properties, based on the profile of existing working-age has been made available to councils in discretionary tenants in receipt of Housing Benefit, and a lack of 1 bedroom housing payments to avoid penalising a limited number accommodation in the social sector. In many areas this mismatch”— of households. However, the Minister in the other place I am quoting the Department here— made it clear that, as the Minister of State hinted today, “could mean that there are insufficient properties to enable tenants that money is to help foster carers and disabled people to move to accommodation of an appropriate size even if tenants with adapted homes—so no help there for our terminally wished to move and landlords were able to facilitate this movement.” ill tenant. 759 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 760

Even for foster carers and disabled people in adapted to do. I hope that hon. Members will support the Lords homes, contrary to the impression that the Minister of amendments and oppose the Minister’s motion. State gave to the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): When I and Old Southwark, there will be no certainty. People spoke during our last consideration of the Lords wanting help will have to go to their local council and amendments to the Bill, I expressed concerns about this ask for it, because it will be discretionary—that is what policy, particularly about the changes to child maintenance the word means. It will up to each local council to payments. I am pleased that there has been some movement decide what it does with the money. It could use it for on that front, but I find myself once again in support of that purpose, or it could use it for a different one. If their lordships. I am sorry about that, because the other people have already taken all the discretionary ministerial team is one of my favourites. I will not tell funding that has been provided, that will be it. No you which is my least favourite, Mr Speaker, but people further help will be available. can guess.

Charlie Elphicke: I understand that the policy in the 4.30 pm Lords amendments would cost the Exchequer £150 million. The amendments are less perfect than the original How would it be funded? set, but the reasons for that have already been explained. As I said last time, when we talk about people’s homes, Stephen Timms: The hon. Gentleman should reflect we need to remember that they are exactly that—people’s on the fact that, as I have described, the costs will be homes, not just a public asset that we need to release for greater in a number of ways with the Government’s others. We all have constituents who have problems provisions in place than they would be if the Lords with being in houses that are not suitable for them and amendments were retained. want bigger homes, but I am not sure that this measure Before I leave the topic of discretionary housing is necessarily the right way to deal with that. In my payments, it is worth my noting how the extra £30 million constituency, one of the biggest problems of under- has been found. Initially, the average penalty for under- occupation relates to older people. That age group is occupying by one bedroom was going to be £11 a week, completely exempted from the measure. Staff time will and now the Government have increased it to £12 a be focused on dealing with the problem before us, and week. They have increased the penalty for everybody that could detract from the work that can be done in affected in order to scrape together the extra cash to helping and encouraging older people into more suitable increase discretionary payments. housing, to free up bigger houses. The amendment is imperfect because it is restricted to people in receipt of The last time this policy was debated, we offered an certain benefits, and I would have preferred it to be effective alternative whereby a tenant would have their more widely constructed. benefit cut as a penalty if they refused a suitable move. When I spoke to a constituent about this a week or so Unfortunately, Government Members threw it out. The ago, her explanation of why she needed another bedroom Lords amendments would limit that safeguard to the brought it home to me that, as I said, these are people’s four groups that I have mentioned—the sick, the disabled, homes and not just public assets. She said, “My kids war widows and foster carers. have moved away, but they come and go. They sometimes Ministers have said that their policy will be a work come back home because relationships break down, incentive, but the support group comprises people who and so on, and having the space there for them is very are not in a position to work. A work incentive will do necessary.”She added that her husband snores a lot and them no good at all. Let us call a spade a spade: this is a she likes to kick him out into the spare room, but I spiteful cut in people’s income. Foster carers provide a suspect that that is not necessarily a reason to allow service that saves the Exchequer billions. The Fostering people to have extra housing. It is important to remember Network has warned that people will be forced by the that nowadays people come and go and relationships penalty to give up fostering, which will increase costs to are flexible. Like the shadow Minister, I was concerned the Exchequer. War widows and widowers have seen to hear the ideas about how people can find extra their loved ones die for their country. Their grieving funding. It is not practical to expect people to take in an barely over, they will be fined under the Government’s additional lodger, and in the case of many social housing policy because they have one bedroom too many. I ask landlords that would not be allowed anyway. whether that is really what Government Members came I will again support the Lords on this matter, with into the House to do to their constituents. The apologies to my colleagues on the Front Bench. They Government’s policy, without the Lords amendments, have entirely the right reasons for taking the policy will penalise everybody regardless of whether they could forward, but in policy making we always have to consider move. the law of unintended consequences. When I served for Fourteen Government Members joined us in voting 10 years as a councillor in the city of Hull, we had a for the relevant Lords amendment last time. I thank large council estate where there was a huge problem them for that, and their constituents will do so as well, with people under-occupying homes, and it was incredibly even if their Whips will not. As we were not successful, complicated and difficult to deal with. It is a fallacy to social landlords will have to take on extra staff to chase think that we will suddenly be able to move all these the resulting arrears that will start to accrue in every people out into more suitable accommodation. social landlord’s stock across the country. The current Lords amendments are much more modest than the Mr Tom Clarke: I find myself agreeing with almost previous ones, but they would at least protect those who everything that the hon. Gentleman has said, apart stand to lose the most from what the Government want from his view of those on the Treasury Front Bench. 761 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 762

[Mr Tom Clarke] sentiments of Opposition Front Benchers. I regret that, but I have made my position clear. However, I today In addition to his experience in his own constituency, is wish to speak against the Government on their stance he influenced by the fact that disability organisations and to support my right hon. Friend the Member for have told us about the example of a man with a learning East Ham (Stephen Timms). disability who had to wait for 25 years for appropriate I do so because the change that the Government are accommodation? It turned out to be a two-bedroom making is shameful. Anyone who has sat through debates house, which has now become his home. on the Bill will know that the Government’s body language is totally different to that in respect of other Andrew Percy: I do not know the circumstances of measures. They have been forced to take this measure that case, but in my time as a councillor we had a by the Treasury. It goes against all that the Bill tries to number of properties that were very difficult to let achieve, which is to work with the grain of human because people did not want to live in them. That was nature. This proposal, which has been forced on the particularly true of the maisonettes. In Old Goole in my Department for Work and Pensions, works against that constituency, a two-bedroom maisonette has recently grain. been let to an individual after about 20 years. He will be There are four reasons why Government Members under-occupying because of the spare bedroom, but we should today save their favourite Front Benchers from are grateful that he has taken the property off our the course that the Treasury is making them go down. hands. First, let us imagine that places are available—that we could wave them into existence with a magic wand—and Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab):Given my that all the people whom the Government condemn as time in local government in my constituency, I totally under-occupying could move. That is the last thing the agree with the hon. Gentleman on that. Does he recognise Government want, because to satisfy the Treasury that for many years, the Housing Corporation, which requirements, the Department has had to enter into the funds a lot of social housing, has not given grant to the accounts that it will make a substantial saving. If it were building of one-bedroom properties? possible for people to move—all hon. Members know that it is not—the measure would fail, because it is Andrew Percy: Indeed. The standard for many housing being introduced not to even out housing, but to deliver associations is to provide two bedrooms—there is a a major saving in public expenditure to the Treasury by programme in my constituency to renew such properties singling out the group who under-occupy. Therefore, at the moment. In a few years’ time, we could end up the first reason why I hope Government supporters with a lot of people who, through no fault of their own, reject the measure is that it makes no sense. are under-occupying homes because the standard has Secondly, as we have heard, even if people move into changed. the private sector, the total bill to taxpayers will be greater than if they stayed in social housing and were Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Is that not the not penalised. The Government risk making the achieving argument? There is a lack of family accommodation of cuts in public expenditure that much more difficult and we need to house families who are in temporary than it is. accommodation, especially for the children. Thirdly, the Government’s proposal strikes against other major Government objectives with which I agree. Andrew Percy: We need to address the failure to The Government say that the reform is aimed at provide adequate housing stock in this country. However, strengthening families and building stronger communities, I say to my hon. Friend and near neighbour that the but this move sticks a dagger into both those objectives. Government’s proposal is not a way to do so. It is not a It will affect parents in families that have broken up and simple problem to solve. wish children to come and stay, and people who have The crux of the amendment is that if there is suitable carers rather than entering permanent care. Furthermore, accommodation to go into, people should go into it, but as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew just as there is an insufficient number of bigger homes Percy) said in his fine speech, people might snore. How for families, there is an insufficient number of smaller, many marriages have been saved because one partner one-bedroom properties for those groups of people to who snored could move into another bedroom? These go into. If we apply the argument that there is no details do not appear in public accounts details but they suitable housing for one group of people and we must appear in real life. If this measure passes, far from therefore do something about them, we should also strengthening families and enabling them to relate to argue that we should not penalise people who are and visit one another more easily, it will make it more under-occupying if there is no suitable accommodation difficult, and it might well drive out of the community for them. upstanding citizens who play a much wider role, in the The sensible element of the Lords amendment is that most difficult circumstances, in trying to beat the yob the penalty kicks in only if people refuse a suitable culture that engulfs them. property. That is eminently fair. Hon. Members must There is a fourth reason I speak and wish Members, come to their own conclusions, but I will vote accordingly. particularly on the Government Benches, to vote against I look forward to hearing other contributions to the the Government and save their own Front Benchers. debate. The Government know that I do not accept all their poverty data, but they do not have the courage to come Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): As the House out, as I want them to do, and declare on that—perhaps may know, I agree with the Government on many one day they will find that courage. I do not think that aspects of the Bill and I have not always shared the the poverty data properly measure whether people are 763 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 764 benefitting from the general rise in living standards that count towards the housing benefit bedroom entitlement, has occurred for generation upon generation in this whether they are there are not. Therefore, not only is country. Harold Macmillan said that the poor should there a problem when there are no children; there is a benefit from rising living standards. One way of ensuring problem when there are children. that they do so is to give them the freedoms that I and other hon. Members have—those small differences in Stephen Lloyd: I would welcome a response from the life that so improve its quality. Having a spare bedroom Minister on that issue. with which to offer hospitality to family and friends can To go back to disabled people and adjustments to make such a difference to the quality of one’s life. their homes, I would like some detail from the Government The Government know that they are going against a as to exactly how they will meet that challenge, because valuable tradition dating back to the Macmillan era. clearly it makes no sense to move someone out after This is not a welfare reform measure. It will be a their home has been adapted to the tune of thousands recruiting sergeant to the money lenders and will be of pounds. looked on as an eviction measure. Given that the DWP Thirdly, what steps are the Government taking to cannot save itself from this terrible measure, forced on ensure that there is enough housing stock when 2013 it by the Treasury, I hope that Government Members comes around? We have a year before that happens, so I will save the Department from pushing through this would be interested to hear the Government’s plan. nasty, mean little measure. I hope that the House will Last but not least, what plans are the coalition Government send a clear message to the House of Lords that, even if making, prior to implementation, to work with local we do not win tonight, they should keep up the fight authorities and housing association in advance of April 2013 and send it back until there are enough Government to ensure that the changes are made in a sensible and Back Benchers to save the Department from this shabby productive manner? I look forward to hearing the Minister’s little folly. reassurances in response to those four important questions.

Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): It is a privilege to Mr Speaker: Before I call the next speaker, let me follow the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) point out to the House that the Minister is being asked on this issue and the issue of welfare reform generally. I quite a lot of questions—which is absolutely fine—and have read what he has written for many years. I have if the House wants to hear the answers, I think he will some sympathy with what he and other colleagues have need five minutes to provide them. said, and with the amendment, and I have some specific concerns that I would like to put to the Government Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I agree and on which I look forward to receiving clarification with all right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have from the Minister. spoken, with the exception of the Minister. First, however, I want to welcome the fact that the As I understand it, the Government’s justification for coalition Government have already put aside funds in prosecuting the bedroom tax against even very vulnerable the comprehensive spending review for severely disabled people is that it will free up social housing and relieve people who need carers either for 24 hours or overnight. the shortage. If that is the case, someone in a constituency I am glad of that. It was in the Lib Dem manifesto, and such as mine—where 8,000 people are on the waiting I am glad that it is being delivered by the coalition list with no possibility of being housed in the private Government. sector because of costs—should welcome such provisions. I have four concerns about the amendment, however, However, we know, because no alternative properties on which I seek reassurance from the Minister. The first are available, that this is in fact simply a cost-saving is straightforward and concerns foster carers and social measure. As for the idea of a property being empty for housing, about which one of my colleagues talked earlier. 20 years, as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole I would like the Minister to clarify exactly how the (Andrew Percy) described, properties are not empty for Government will manage the periods during which 20 minutes in Hammersmith before they are snapped up. foster carers have one spare bedroom. Clearly the children Everything that this Government are doing, whether of foster carers sometimes move on and there will be a it be the cuts to the social housing grant, the changes to gap before the next child arrives. I would therefore affordable rents—I should say that the affordable rent welcome some clarification from the Government of at 80% of the open market value of a four-bedroom how that will be managed. property in Hammersmith would require an income of Secondly, a number of my disabled constituents, such £96,000 a year—the changes in homelessness legislation as wheelchair users, have had extensive adaptations in or the provisions of the Localism Act 2011, weakens the their homes—I am thinking of one particular individual, security and provision of social housing. What we are in Langney—which have made a considerable difference discussing is another measure to make social tenants to their lives. It took probably two or three years to get second-class citizens and social tenants on benefit third-class the work done in that case, and it would frankly be daft citizens. to move that individual out of her home because of the If I may do so in just one minute, I would like to give one-bedroom rule; the local authority has already spent as an example my own local authority—a Conservative- £10,000 on those adaptations. controlled local authority and the favoured local authority of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local 4.45 pm Government. In the last two weeks it has given approval for more than 3,000 new houses to be built. Not one of Stephen Timms: I agree with the points that the hon. those 3,000 properties will be a new social home for Gentleman is making. Just to take him back to foster rent; rather, they are replacing 750 good-quality homes, children for a moment, as I understand it, they do not which are in the process of being demolished, so we are 765 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 766

[Mr Andy Slaughter] social housing at the same rate as the Major Government, we would have seen something like 300,000 more families already seeing downsizing at work. The authority received in social rented accommodation. The fact is, however, £100 million for that demolition from the property that they did not. This was not a priority for them when developer and another £100 million was received for they took office in 1997, and they cut back on construction. selling off 300 good-quality social homes on the open Today, we are living in extraordinarily difficult times, market by auction, and it is building 25 new council financially, and we are dealing with the consequences of homes. However, even though those council homes are the decisions that were made 15 years ago. on estates and will be low-cost homes that therefore could be rented, they will all be for private sale. Mr Field: We are not interested in the Blair Government or the Brown Government; the electorate decided that Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Does the hon. they should come to an end. We are interested in Gentleman agree that the Government are failing to what this Government are doing. Does the Minister not understand the sheer scale of this matter? The largest accept that if people followed his advice and moved into social landlord in Bradford has 3,800 under-occupied the private sector, far from saving the amount spent on households, and it would take three years with no housing benefit, such a move would actually increase it? re-lets or new lets to house people there under the proposals. Chris Grayling: I simply do not accept that. The right hon. Gentleman is making assumptions about Mr Slaughter: As always, the hon. Gentleman is right people’s behaviour and about the cost of temporary on this issue. accommodation. We as a nation are housing large numbers The point has been made by those on my Front of people in extremely expensive temporary accommodation Bench many times that we are talking about people’s who can and should be housed properly. At the same homes. This proposal is cynical not only because it runs time, we are supporting 1 million empty bedrooms in completely in the face of Government policy in every the social rented sector. My colleagues and I believe other area, which is to reduce affordability and the that we simply cannot afford to do that at this moment quantum of available social housing, but because it is in time. This is not the world of 15 years ago. We have about persecuting people in social tenancies and making come into government with empty coffers, as the right them feel that their home is no longer their own. For hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) that reason above all, I urge the House to support the keeps reminding us. We are having to take tough decisions, Labour Front Bench in supporting the Lords amendment. some of which we might wish that we did not have to take, and we are trying to take them in as fair a way as Chris Grayling: I will probably not be able to cover all possible. the questions that have been raised, but I shall pick out My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen some of the key points. Lloyd) asked about foster carers. The foster carers of The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) this nation are to be enormously admired for the work made a passionate defence of the spare room, referring that they do, and I appreciate that this is a sensitive back to the days of Macmillan and to the principles of issue. In putting in place discretionary funding, we have the welfare state. I know that he is often a champion of focused specifically on those people. On the status of a welfare reform, and I listen carefully to what he says, foster child, the approach that we are taking is not to but I find it difficult to justify maintaining 1 million treat foster children as members of the foster carer’s spare rooms in the social rented sector when large household in the calculation of the appropriate amount numbers of families are living in temporary accommodation of housing benefit. That is because we are treating them and in accommodation that is too small for them. I do in a different way. It is consistent with the current not believe that the spare room is a luxury that the treatment of foster children in housing benefit assessments social rented sector can afford at the expense of children for those living in the private rented sector, but we living in temporary rented accommodation. Fundamentally, disregard the whole of the foster carer allowance that is that is what this change is about. given to the foster parents when assessing eligibility for all income-related benefits. That leaves the majority of households who foster substantially better off, so the Mr Field: But it is not about that, is it? If the payment is made through the foster care support system Government are going to deliver to the Treasury the in order to ensure that the family has sufficient resource moneys that they say they are going to save, that will to make money available for support to cover the costs depend on people not being able to react in the way that of those children. the Minister is describing. The whole point of making discretionary money Chris Grayling: As I keep saying, that is not the case. available is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe At the moment, local authorities up and down the and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) said, that there are of country are paying out large amounts of money; the course situations where there is a gap in a foster child’s right hon. Gentleman should talk to his own local presence in a household. When the money is not coming authority about the challenges and costs of providing in, we need to use discretionary funding to ensure that temporary accommodation. We depend so heavily on the family is appropriately and properly supported. We temporary accommodation partly because of the failings do not want to see foster carers forced out for the very of the previous Government, going back 10 or 15 years, good work they do; it is really important that we in the construction of social rented housing. I remember provide them with support. looking at the figures in the early part of the last In the last few seconds available to me, let me say decade. Had the Blair Government continued to build again that a spare bedroom is a valuable asset. Taxpayers’ 767 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 768 money is already being used to provide accommodation Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte at social sector rents, averaging £79 a week in England Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Letwin, rh Mr Oliver compared with £160 in the private rented sector. Asking Glen, John Lewis, Brandon the taxpayer to find a further half a billion pounds to Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Dr Julian enable— Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter 4.56 pm Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen One hour having elapsed since the commencement of Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack the proceedings on the Lords message, the debate was Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan interrupted (Programme Order, 1 February). Greening, rh Justine Loughton, Tim The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83G), That this Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Gummer, Ben Macleod, Mary House disagrees with the Lords in their amendments 3B Gyimah, Mr Sam Main, Mrs Anne and 26B. Hague, rh Mr William Maude, rh Mr Francis The House divided: Ayes 316, Noes 263. Halfon, Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Division No. 472] [4.56 pm Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl AYES Hancock, Matthew McIntosh, Miss Anne Adams, Nigel Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hands, Greg McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Aldous, Peter Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Amess, Mr David Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca Mensch, Louise Andrew, Stuart Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Menzies, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Nick Mercer, Patrick Bacon, Mr Richard Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Baker, Norman Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Miller, Maria Baker, Steve Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heald, Oliver Mills, Nigel Baldry, Tony Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heath, Mr David Milton, Anne Baldwin, Harriett Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Moore, rh Michael Barclay, Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Mordaunt, Penny Barker, Gregory Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Morgan, Nicky Baron, Mr John Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Barwell, Gavin Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Morris, James Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Mosley, Stephen Benyon, Richard Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Mundell, rh David Berry, Jake de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Munt, Tessa Bingham, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Binley, Mr Brian Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Blackwood, Nicola Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Newton, Sarah Blunt, Mr Crispin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline Boles, Nick Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Margot Norman, Jesse Bone, Mr Peter Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid Nuttall, Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bradley, Karen Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Offord, Mr Matthew Brady, Mr Graham Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Ollerenshaw, Eric Bray, Angie Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Osborne, rh Mr George Brazier, Mr Julian Eustice, George Jones, Mr David Ottaway, Richard Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Brine, Steve Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, Priti Brokenshire, James Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bruce, Fiona Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pawsey, Mark Bruce, rh Malcolm Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Penning, Mike Buckland, Mr Robert Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Penrose, John Burley, Mr Aidan Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Burns, Conor Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Burns, rh Mr Simon Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Pickles, rh Mr Eric Burrowes, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Pincher, Christopher Burstow, Paul Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Burt, Alistair Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Prisk, Mr Mark Burt, Lorely Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Pugh, John Byles, Dan Gale, Sir Roger Leadsom, Andrea Raab, Mr Dominic Cable, rh Vince Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Cairns, Alun Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Cameron, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gibb, Mr Nick Leigh, Mr Edward Reevell, Simon 769 Welfare Reform Bill21 FEBRUARY 2012 Welfare Reform Bill 770

Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Timpson, Mr Edward Dobbin, Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Dobson, rh Frank Joyce, Eric Rosindell, Andrew Tredinnick, David Docherty, Thomas Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Keeley, Barbara Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Kendall, Liz Rutley, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Doran, Mr Frank Khan, rh Sadiq Sandys, Laura Uppal, Paul Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Vaizey, Mr Edward Doyle, Gemma Lavery, Ian Selous, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Dromey, Jack Lazarowicz, Mark Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Martin Dugher, Michael Leech, Mr John Sharma, Alok Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Durkan, Mark Leslie, Chris Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Charles Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Mr Ivan Shepherd, Mr Richard Walker, Mr Robin Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Simmonds, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Simpson, Mr Keith Walter, Mr Robert Efford, Clive Long, Naomi Skidmore, Chris Watkinson, Angela Elliott, Julie Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Miss Chloe Weatherley, Mike Ellman, Mrs Louise Lucas, Caroline Smith, Henry Webb, Steve Engel, Natascha Lucas, Ian Smith, Julian Wharton, James Esterson, Bill MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Sir Robert Wheeler, Heather Evans, Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Soubry, Anna White, Chris Field, rh Mr Frank Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stanley, rh Sir John Whittaker, Craig Fitzpatrick, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Stephenson, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Flello, Robert Malhotra, Seema Stevenson, John Wiggin, Bill Flint, rh Caroline Mann, John Stewart, Bob Williams, Roger Flynn, Paul Marsden, Mr Gordon Stewart, Iain Williams, Stephen Fovargue, Yvonne McCabe, Steve Stewart, Rory Williamson, Gavin Francis, Dr Hywel McCann, Mr Michael Stride, Mel Wilson, Mr Rob Gapes, Mike McCarthy, Kerry Stuart, Mr Graham Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gardiner, Barry McClymont, Gregg Stunell, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Gilmore, Sheila McCrea, Dr William Sturdy, Julian Wright, Simon Glass, Pat McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Yeo, Mr Tim Glindon, Mrs Mary McDonnell, John Swinson, Jo Young, rh Sir George Goggins, rh Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Syms, Mr Robert Zahawi, Nadhim Goodman, Helen McGovern, Jim Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Tellers for the Ayes: Greatrex, Tom McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Teather, Sarah Stephen Crabb and Green, Kate McKechin, Ann Thurso, John Jenny Willott Greenwood, Lilian McKenzie, Mr Iain Griffith, Nia McKinnell, Catherine Gwynne, Andrew Meale, Sir Alan NOES Hain, rh Mr Peter Mearns, Ian Abbott, Ms Diane Buck, Ms Karen Hamilton, Mr David Michael, rh Alun Abrahams, Debbie Burden, Richard Hamilton, Fabian Miliband, rh Edward Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burnham, rh Andy Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hanson, rh Mr David Mitchell, Austin Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Alan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Moon, Mrs Madeleine Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Ronnie Harris, Mr Tom Morden, Jessica Allen, Mr Graham Chapman, Mrs Jenny Havard, Mr Dai Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy Healey, rh John Morris, Grahame M. Ashworth, Jonathan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Henderson, Gordon (Easington) Austin, Ian Clwyd, rh Ann Hendrick, Mark Mudie, Mr George Bailey, Mr Adrian Coaker, Vernon Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mulholland, Greg Bain, Mr William Coffey, Ann Hermon, Lady Munn, Meg Balls, rh Ed Connarty, Michael Heyes, David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Murphy, rh Paul Bayley, Hugh Cooper, rh Yvette Hilling, Julie Murray, Ian Beckett, rh Margaret Crausby, Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret Nandy, Lisa Benton, Mr Joe Creagh, Mary Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Nash, Pamela Berger, Luciana Creasy, Stella Hoey, Kate O’Donnell, Fiona Betts, Mr Clive Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kelvin Onwurah, Chi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cruddas, Jon Hosie, Stewart Owen, Albert Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, John Howarth, rh Mr George Pearce, Teresa Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Alex Hunt, Tristram Percy, Andrew Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Mr Jim Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Tony Jackson, Glenda Pound, Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Curran, Margaret James, Mrs Siân C. Qureshi, Yasmin Brennan, Kevin Dakin, Nic Jamieson, Cathy Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brooke, Annette Danczuk, Simon Jarvis, Dan Reed, Mr Jamie Brown, rh Mr Gordon Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, rh Alan Reeves, Rachel Brown, Lyn David, Mr Wayne Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Emma Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Helen Reynolds, Jonathan Brown, Mr Russell Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr Kevan Riordan, Mrs Linda Bryant, Chris De Piero, Gloria Jones, Susan Elan Ritchie, Ms Margaret 771 Welfare Reform Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 772

Robertson, Angus Tami, Mark Remuneration of EU Staff Robertson, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Thornberry, Emily Rotheram, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Roy, Mr Frank Trickett, Jon 5.14 pm Roy, Lindsay Turner, Karl The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Ruane, Chris Twigg, Derek Smith): I beg to move, Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Twigg, Stephen Russell, Sir Bob Umunna, Mr Chuka That this House takes note of European Union Documents Sanders, Mr Adrian Vaz, rh Keith No. 17625/11 and Addendum, relating to a draft Regulation Sarwar, Anas Vaz, Valerie adjusting, from 1 July 2011, the rate of contribution to the Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan pension scheme of officials and other servants of the European Shannon, Jim Ward, Mr David Union and a Commission staff working paper: Eurostat report Sharma, Mr Virendra Watson, Mr Tom on the 2011 update of the 2010 actuarial assessment of the Pension Scheme for European Officials, and No. 17627/11, a Sheerman, Mr Barry Watts, Mr Dave Commission Communication to the Council providing supplementary Sheridan, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan information on the Commission report on the Exception Clause Shuker, Gavin Wicks, rh Malcolm of 13 July 2011; questions the European Commission’s conclusion Simpson, David Williams, Hywel that recent and challenging economic conditions do not warrant Skinner, Mr Dennis Williamson, Chris application of the Exception Clause; regrets that the Commission Slaughter, Mr Andy Winnick, Mr David has not modified the salary adjustment method this year; stresses Smith, rh Mr Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie that consequent increases in EU staff pay, proposed by the Smith, Angela Wishart, Pete Commission, are completely unacceptable when as part of its Smith, Nick Wood, Mike fiscal consolidation plans the Government has imposed restraints Smith, Owen Woodcock, John on public sector pay; notes that the framework for setting EU Spellar, rh Mr John remuneration requires reform to increase Member States’ oversight Wright, David Straw, rh Mr Jack and control, which the ongoing review of the EU Staff Regulations Wright, Mr Iain Stringer, Graham may enable; and commits to achieve very significant reductions in Stuart, Ms Gisela Tellers for the Noes: EU administrative spending in the next Multiannual Financial Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Phil Wilson and Framework as part of the UK’s overarching goal to impose real Swales, Ian Graham Jones budgetary restraint. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the 2011 EU Question accordingly agreed to. salary adjustment and the Government’s agenda to Lords amendments 3B and 26B disagreed to. reform and reduce EU administrative spending. The House is familiar with the context for EU spending: The Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary while Europe’s economy remains very fragile, delivering for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that and supporting plans to consolidate public finances time (Standing Order No. 83F). remains crucial and, at the same time, we must also seek Lords amendments 17B to 17D, 19B and 73BA agreed to promote growth using available resources. to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of There are two clear implications for the EU budget. all Lords amendments. First, the EU must live within its means; high spending Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing is not the way to fix Europe’s problems. Secondly, all Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to EU spending must deliver the highest added value. draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Strict and rigorous prioritisation is necessary to reduce to their amendments 3B and 26B: waste and inefficiency. That Chris Grayling, Stephen Crabb, Stephen Timms, Over the past few years, the Government have worked Tom Blenkinsop and Jenny Willott be members of the hard to establish a new framework for budget discipline Committee; at EU level. That is an important task because current That Chris Grayling be the Chair of the Committee; EU spending targets, agreed by the previous Government, That three be the quorum of the Committee. set a rising trajectory for EU spending to 2013 that is no longer realistic. That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Jeremy Wright.) We have pursued our goal with considerable success. Question agreed to. For 2011, growth in EU spending was limited to 2.91%, far below the unacceptable 6% increase demanded by Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be the Commission and European Parliament, and last reported and communicated to the Lords. year, the 2012 EU budget was set at only 2.02% above the original 2011 budget, exactly as proposed by the European Council in July. That delivered on the Prime Minister’s determination to freeze the EU budget in real terms, and set spending ¤4 billion below the level advocated by the European Parliament. A drive to limit EU administrative savings is a key plank of the Government’s approach to budgetary restraint at EU level. It reflects the tough domestic measures the Government are taking to find savings. As set out in the spending review, the administrative budgets of central Whitehall Departments will be reduced by 34%, saving £5.9 billion a year by 2014-15 so that resources can be focused on front-line services. 773 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 774

[Miss Chloe Smith] regulations—the only means for seeking to alter the mechanistic salary adjustment process under the current The EU should show a similar drive to find efficiency system. savings. Any suggestion of waste in the EU budget damages Each time, the Commission has stubbornly refused to the standing of the EU institutions and of the EU as a reduce growth in EU staff pay. Its defence for its inaction whole. Its ambition, however, is evidently lacking. Strikingly, has been internally inconsistent, self-serving and, as the for 2012 the Commission proposed to save only ¤695, much European Scrutiny Committee observed, one-sided. By less than one 1,000th of its ¤3.3 billion budget. We are claiming that there has been no clear, however, that the EU institutions must manage themselves and the programmes that they help to manage “sudden and serious deterioration in the economic and social far better and on lower budgets. We have called for a situation” cash freeze in EU administrative spending in recent in the EU, the Commission has undertaken faulty analysis. annual budget negotiations and we want to see cash For example, it based its rosy evaluation on forecast cuts in that area over the next multi-annual financial indicators that did not pertain to the period defined for framework. its assessment. Today, I can inform the House that the Chancellor More seriously, the Commission ignored the huge took the unprecedented step of voting against discharging number of important fiscal consolidation measures adopted the accounts for the 2010 EU budget. We have not seen and implemented by member states during the period enough progress in reducing the level of errors in EU under review. The Commission itself has strongly advocated transactions, which is unacceptable. We should remember such measures, yet incredibly it used stabilising debt that national taxpayers stand behind the EU budget and deficit levels to justify higher pay for its own staff. and that is why we have clearly signalled the need for Most seriously of all, the Commission has manipulated important and urgent improvements to the quality of the current system to deprive member states of the EU financial management. opportunity to evaluate the situation independently and to adopt appropriate measures, at a time when it is Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am sorry to intervene evident to us all that taking immediate action to curb on the Minister because of the effects of her unfortunate growth in EU staff pay is the right thing to do. That is accident, but is there a blocking minority against the why the UK and the wider Council rejected the 1.7% pay proposals and has it been exercised? May I ask whether increase in December. It is also why we have blocked we are not only voting against it, but have voted against reductions in EU staff contribution rates to their pension it, and what the outcome was? scheme. In addition, the Council has lodged a court case against the Commission for mishandling the 2011 Miss Smith: I think I will cover all those points in my salary adjustment. speech, although I am grateful to my extremely well- informed hon. Friend for his prompt to do so. The Council’s decision to proceed with legal action against the Commission indicates the seriousness with Let me turn now to the 2011 EU salary adjustment. which we treat the issue. Should the Council lose the The Commission’s attitude towards EU staff pay case, it will simply add weight to our view that the adjustments is another clear indication of its estrangement current process is defunct and cannot adapt properly to from reality. In the UK, the public sector pay bill makes difficult economic circumstances. In any event, reform up more than half of departmental resource spending, of the salary adjustment system is urgent. The ongoing so action on pay is inevitably part of the Government’s review of the EU staff regulations, which set out the fiscal consolidation strategy.Accordingly, the Government rules in this area, provides an important opportunity to have announced a two-year public sector pay freeze for make that happen. those earning above £21,000, with pay awards following that averaging at only 1%. Those measures are estimated Delivering a subtler and more responsive way of to save around £3.3 billion a year by 2014-15. setting EU staff pay, which empowers the Council to make suitable adjustments in times of economic distress At EU level, on the contrary, staff remunerations and more generally, is an important objective. One part counted for 69% of the Commission’s budget in 2011, of the Government’s broader agenda to achieve efficiency which means that EU annual salary adjustments have gains and financial savings in the EU budget is via important implications for the size of EU administrative reform of the staff regulations that determine such a costs. However, rather than taking action to reduce its high level of the EU’s administrative budget. wage bill the Commission proposed to increase it by 1.7%, representing an extra ¤39 million, in the year Overall, the potential for savings is high. This dossier from July 2011, despite the fact that the vast majority of is subject to qualified majority voting and co-decision EU officials earn significantly more than most public with the European Parliament. Our success will depend officials in the UK and many other member states. on building firm alliances, so the Government are already working closely with other member states to agree I turn now to the position of the UK and the Council. cost-saving ideas that can command broad support in Clearly, any pay increase for EU staff is unacceptable. Council. In conjunction with other member states, the Government called on the Commission to lower its proposals, taking into account the economic situation and the policy Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Does measures in many member states to curb public wage my hon. Friend agree that the problem of co-decision bills. The request was made not once but twice, first in with the European Parliament is that its Members December 2010 and again in November 2011. The already have their fingers in the till and are giving requests were made by invoking the so-called exception themselves a substantial pay increase for the coming clause—article 10 of the 11th annex to the EU staff year? 775 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 776

Miss Smith: I certainly agree that everybody associated programme of reform to reduce its administrative budget. with European institutions needs to show restraint at That is why this Government will continue to challenge this time, as I think the debate will show in some detail, the current system in order to contain the costs of so I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. Europe. I commend the motion to the House. He will be reassured that alongside the measures I have already laid out, we intend to pursue the modernisation of EU institutions, in order to help them become more 5.27 pm effective, and to encourage a better geographical spread Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- of EU officials from across member states. op): It is a pleasure to face the Minister across the Dispatch Box this afternoon, after being side by side Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Further with her this morning at the Rehab Group’s parliamentary to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for pancake breakfast. Neither of us was able to run in the Christchurch (Mr Chope), is the Minister aware that race, so we did not have that kind of competition this the European Court of Justice has ruled that sufficient morning. circumstances did not exist for abandoning the pay rise proposed in 2009? It has therefore been judge in its own Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Will my hon. cause, abandoning one of the founding principles of Friend give way? natural justice. Cathy Jamieson: Indeed.

Miss Smith: My hon. Friend makes a further fine Mr Speaker: With reference to the annual adjustment point, as he frequently does. By failing to restrain the of the remuneration of EU staff, I feel certain. budget, the Commission is almost, metaphorically speaking, acting as judge and jury in its own case, deciding the Stephen Pound: On the subject of the annual adjustment matter in a way that could clearly be said to be self-serving. of the remuneration of EU staff, my hon. Friend may My hon. Friends will all be pleased to hear that reform be aware that when the MPs team won this morning, of the staff regulations is extremely important in the that was the sole topic of discussion. next multi-annual financial framework, because it is there that we can control administrative expenditure Cathy Jamieson: I had better not incur the wrath of year in, year out. the Speaker by commenting, other than to congratulate The House is aware that we need to promote budgetary those MPs who were able to take part. I note that, apart restraint at every opportunity. That is the UK’s top from my hon. Friend, none of them is here to participate priority. That means that we need to ensure that the EU in the debate. Perhaps they are recovering. budget contributes to domestic fiscal consolidation. I begin by thanking the European Scrutiny Committee The Prime Minister has stated, jointly with his EU for recommending this for debate on the Floor of the counterparts, that the maximum acceptable expenditure House and for the work it has done in scrutinising these increase through the next financial perspective is a real documents. European institutions can sometimes seem freeze in payments. To deliver this, we want very substantial remote and impenetrable, but as we are aware, the reductions in many areas of EU spending, compared to workings of the EU in general, and of the Commission, the Commission’s proposals, including on salaries, pensions have a significant impact on a range of issues that affect and benefits, as well as discretionary administrative us all. We also know that the EU produces a huge spending, such as buildings policy and IT. The EU volume of documents, and members of the European cannot continue to insulate itself from cuts at the expense Scrutiny Committee do us a service by examining a of UK taxpayers. number of those in detail, and recommending debate on the Floor of the House where there are further Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister questions for the Government to consider. talks about ways of cutting back expenditure. What The Committee’s reason for drawing attention to representations have the Government made recently on these documents relates to a number of specific concerns: the terribly wasteful and inefficient practice by the first, the process that has led us to the position where European institutions, particularly the Parliament, of once again we might see a legal battle between the moving between Strasbourg and Brussels? Have the Commission and the Council in the European Court of Government pressed that issue recently? Justice; secondly, the Commission’s view that there was no justification for invoking the exception clause; and Miss Smith: As I hope my comments have made clear thirdly, questions about what action the Government to all hon. Members in the Chamber, this Government have taken, and will take, regarding the negotiations on take extremely seriously all aspects of budgetary restraint. the amendment of Annex XI. I firmly expect us to review the situation with the same As the European Scrutiny Committee recognised, the principles at hand. We are looking for the kind of documents are technical in content, but they nevertheless restraint in the EU institutions that we can show proudly raise issues of far greater political importance. In properly to UK taxpayers back at home. That is what I am laying scrutinising these documents, it is important to understand out today across a number of areas. I mentioned buildings their background and history. The Minister has already policy, for example, in my comments a moment ago. covered some of that territory and I will not seek to I shall conclude in order to allow other hon. Members repeat it. However, it is worth highlighting some of the to have their say on this extremely important topic. The context again, because it is entirely linked to the wider Commission must not be allowed to cosset its officials economic situation we face. with pay packages that are grossly inflated. It has In less difficult financial times such documents, which a clear responsibility to put forward an ambitious essentially put in place the necessary paperwork for 777 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 778

[Cathy Jamieson] There are different opinions on Europe across the political parties, and indeed within them, but there is salary upgrading, may have passed, if not entirely one thing that I am sure we can agree on: times are now unnoticed—the Scrutiny Committee would always have tough across Europe. GDP fell throughout Europe at had an eye on them—at least without significant comment, the end of the previous quarter, unemployment in the except from Members who view anything to do with eurozone is at a record high and we continue to face Europe as by its nature a bad thing. I do not take that uncertainty surrounding the eurozone crisis. In reality, view, but we are in a climate where there is justified apart from those at the very top, people in work in both anger at excessive pay, outrage at bankers’ bonuses and the public and private sectors are already experiencing a general feeling that staff who are already highly paid those tough times, and families are bearing the brunt. should not get extra rewards simply for doing their job Every day we hear that small business are struggling, properly. and they consistently report that they cannot get the finance that they need or, indeed, previously had. It is Mr Cash: Is there not a further point on economic becoming harder and harder for people to buy their performance arising from the hon. Lady’s comments? first home, with the deposits required now out of reach The calculations being made are based on the assumption for many young people starting out in family life. that there is reasonable growth in the European Union, Yet,despite that wider economic climate, the Commission which simply is not the case. It falls on economic as well did not deem the general economic outlook in Europe as legal grounds. to be an “extraordinary situation” as defined by the European Court of Justice. Try to explain that to the Cathy Jamieson: The hon. Gentleman makes a useful low-paid couple who are set to lose about £4,000 in point that I will address in greater detail later. working tax credits when they hear that a highly paid Being somewhat older than the Minister, I can recall official could gain an extra £4,000 under the proposals. the days when the so-called Eurocrats were high on the If we are not in an extraordinary economic situation, hit list of public anger, as salaries and conditions in what would make for one? We have to question why it is European institutions were perceived to be far more deemed correct to ask hundreds of thousands of public generous than those enjoyed at home. Some of the most sector workers in the UK and throughout Europe to highly paid officials might be relieved that they are no take the hit and to face a cap in their pay and an longer the focus of that anger as bankers and others uncertain future, while no similar restraint is shown by have taken over. However, the subject of EU salaries the EU institutions. and pensions remains important. As the European Scrutiny Another part of the problem is that, owing to the Committee has highlighted, it is clear that this subject structure of the current arrangement, annual adjustments needs greater clarity and resolution. As we have heard, are implemented across the board irrespective of salary the Commission took the Council to the Court over EU levels, meaning that a high earner who is already on salaries and pensions in 2009, and only last month it £200,000 will receive thousands of pounds more under announced its intention to do so again. In advance of the proposals. today’s debate, I asked the House of Commons Library about the costs involved in the last case. I was told: The Opposition have made it clear that financial discipline in the public and private sector must be “There is no straightforward way of getting a figure for the costs borne by the Council in Case C-40/10.” accompanied by fairness, and in terms of salary scales, just as at home, we must be tougher on those at the top I was also told that the Library had attempted to obtain to help protect those at the bottom. Have the Government information, but the Court had said that made representations on that point during any part of “replying would be a massive undertaking that will require all the negotiations? sorts of cost allocation analyses (within the Commission’s legal service and the European Court of Justice), at great expense to I agree with the European Scrutiny Committee that European taxpayers”. the process smacks of being one-sided, and it could be The Court might be unable to tell us exactly how argued that the Commission’s conclusion that we do much that wrangling cost, but it is clear that any legal not face extraordinary times has made a mockery of the fight will have come at great expense to the taxpayer. exception clause, so urgent reform is clearly needed. The questions that taxpayers will no doubt ask is whether That brings me to my next point, and the Committee’s that ping-pong between the Commission and the Council third area of concern: the Government’s action and is really the best way to resolve such matters, and I was representations on the issue. We hear a lot from the pleased to hear the Minister refer to that. However, Government, as we have again today, about them taking taxpayers will want to know exactly what the Government a tough position on EU administrative expenditure and have done in the past year to push for reform so that we wanting to see real budgetary restraint in the EU over are not faced with this annual tit for tat and ongoing the coming years. They spell that out in their memorandum uncertainty. on the subject, and they go on to express dissatisfaction The second area of major concern for the European with the substance and procedure of the salary and Scrutiny Committee was the Commission’s decision not pension adjustment proposals, making the point that to provide for an alternative salary adjustment in its the formal proposals were first circulated only on 2011 report and the basis on which that decision was 24 November 2011 but required Council approval by taken. Members of the Scrutiny Committee amplified the end of the year. their concerns in the conclusions of their report of Again today, although we have heard a great deal 2 November by describing the assessment required of about the facts of the situation, we have not heard in the Commission in considering the exception clause as detail how the Government intend that tough position appearing to be a one-sided exercise. to manifest itself, or who exactly they are going to be 779 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 780 tough on. The fear and worry for many will be that this in the wider world is that the Prime Minister has indicated is just another example of talk but not necessarily that he is willing to put appeasing his own party first action on Europe by the Government, so I should like and the national interest second. Let us be clear about to hear from the Minister how the Government expect one thing: our place in Europe and our seat at the table to take the lead in talks on reform at a time when the are too important for that. To cut ourselves off from a UK’s political capital in Europe is at its lowest in a market of 500 million customers would be devastating generation. to British companies. In an era of billion-person countries In recent months we have seen how the Prime Minister’s and trillion-pound economies, we need to find ways to actions have left Britain somewhat isolated in Europe, amplify our voice, not dampen it. because leading up to last December’s summit he did not appear to put any real effort into alliance building. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Is the hon. Lady really arguing that we should go headlong into whatever Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The hon. political alliances the European Union wants us to Lady’s argument would gain more conviction were it enter, just for the sake of free trade? Is it not the case not for the record of the Government whom she supported, that we are able to have free trade without surrendering because those issues, particularly the structural issues in sovereignty? terms of the European Union institutions, did not begin in May 2010. Does she think that the process she Cathy Jamieson: If the hon. Gentleman had been supports was improved by a previous Prime Minister listening carefully, he would have realised that I am giving away a huge rebate? saying nothing of the sort. I am saying that in an era when we have to compete in a global economy, we must Cathy Jamieson: I have listened closely to the hon. ensure that our voice is heard. We therefore have to take Gentleman, but his party is now in government and it our seat at whatever table there is to put the interests of has to take responsibility for what has happened in the the UK forward. Where we have shared goals, such as in past year. I absolutely understand that past decisions climate change negotiations, tackling cross-border crime have implications for the issue before us, but I want to and dealing with human trafficking, working together focus on where we go in the future and what this surely makes global agreements more likely. We need a Government have done in the past year. My concern is mature and positive approach to Europe from the that, apart from trips to Berlin and Paris, for example, Government. neither the Prime Minister nor the Foreign Secretary travelled to the EU’s capitals before they went to Brussels. Mr Stewart Jackson: Will the hon. Lady give way? Britain was singled out for criticism by the Foreign Minister of Poland, a country that was one of our Cathy Jamieson: I am almost finished, but I will take potential allies. If we want to change things in Europe, an intervention on that point. surely we must build alliances rather than destroy them. Mr Jackson: The hon. Lady is being very generous. I The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Just am rather confused by her position. Can we infer from to correct the record, the Prime Minister did travel to her comments that if the Leader of the Opposition had see Chancellor Merkel and President Sarkozy in the been Prime Minister on 9 December 2011 he would run-up to the December Council and the Prime Minister, have signed the treaty, or would he have followed the the Deputy Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and lead of the Prime Minister and vetoed it? other Ministers had conversations with their counterparts in a number of other member states as the Council Cathy Jamieson: The hon. Gentleman will have heard approached. the Leader of the Labour party say on numerous occasions that he would not have walked out of the negotiations. Cathy Jamieson: I am happy to accept that correction There was no treaty on the table at that time. to the record. However, I want the House to be aware of our concern that what was presented by the UK was I want to move on, because this point is important. done very much at the last minute. I hope that in future As I have said, we need a mature and positive approach we will spend time building alliances, rather than be to Europe from the Government. When we get the sidelined. opportunity to work on a cross-party basis, we should do so. We should engage in Europe and build alliances I want to focus again on the issue of budgetary so that when important issues come up, such as those restraint. The Minister has indicated that there is an that we are debating, we have credibility and influence intention to be tough on Europe on budgetary restraint, among our European neighbours. but we have not seen or heard the detail today of how that will happen. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Will The Conservative party is riven with splits. The Deputy the hon. Lady give way? Prime Minister has said that the Prime Minister’s behaviour in Europe risks making the UK Cathy Jamieson: No, I want to move on. We will no “isolated and marginalised within the European Union”. doubt continue to debate the other issues that I have The Italian Prime Minister, Mario Monti, has said that raised on other occasions. Britain will no longer be To return to the topic of this debate, it is clear that “in the heart of Europe” the view from all parts of the House is that the issue of following the veto and that our “capacity to influence” EU salaries and the exception clause is important. It is events will be greatly diminished. The concern of people clear also that we simply cannot have a situation in 781 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 782

[Cathy Jamieson] We must also consider what we might expect to get from the European Court of Justice. Serious questions which the dispute between the Commission and the often arise about whether many of its decisions are Council continues as an annual tit-for-tat with serious taken on too much of a political basis rather than a financial consequences. strictly juridical one. I once again thank the European Scrutiny Committee for recommending that such an important issue be debated on the Floor of the House. I look forward to Mark Reckless: On a recent visit to Brussels, I had hearing what members of the Scrutiny Committee and the pleasure of meeting the civil servant who negotiated other Members have to say, and to hearing the Minister’s the package in question. He was absolutely up front in response to the questions that I have asked specifically saying to me that his role was to do the best for his about what action has been taken in the past year and colleagues. Having done that so successfully, he was how Ministers propose to ensure that we do not face a promoted. What more do we need to know to see that similar situation at any point in the future. the EU is run for the benefit not of its members but of its staff? 5.45 pm Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am in the unusual Mr Cash: Indeed, and that is far too much of an position of largely agreeing with not only my own endemic problem throughout the EU. We know about party’s Front Benchers—that is always a great pleasure, the case of Marta Andreasen, who was one of the chief if something of a rarity in European affairs—but, as it accounting officers in the EU some time ago and had happens, the Opposition spokesman. This is a very the temerity to challenge the basis on which its important debate, because it indicates what is going on administration in the Court of Auditors was being run. in the European Union. There is a complete cloud She was sacked. Before that, there was Bernard Connolly. cuckoo land, which I observed when I went to the I am given to understand today that in Greece the chief multi-annual surveillance framework meeting a few months representative for EUROSTAT, who has to operate ago. within its regulations, is under siege and under incredible personal pressure, and may even be taken to court Mr Lidington indicated assent. because he has taken unpopular decisions. The problem lies in the idea of acting as judge and Mr Cash: I am glad that my right hon. Friend is jury and being self-serving when the whole of Europe is nodding vigorously, because it was simply staggering. in a state of complete crisis. People are, frankly, lining There we were, faced with a huge European financial their own pockets at public expense at a time when we crisis, and all people were doing was getting up, one know, because we have just had our letters from the after another, and demanding more and more money. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, that There is so much common ground in the House that I we are not going to be given an increase, any more than am happy to be brief and allow my hon. Friends to are the civil servants and so forth. The disparity between explain their points of view and concerns. I am conscious what is going on in the European Union and what is of the fact that I have had quite a few opportunities to going on in the domestic administration of this country do so. However, I wish to point out that my right hon. is so glaringly obvious that we have every reason as a Friend the Prime Minister recently signed a joint letter Parliament not only to debate the issue but really to put with Mr Rajoy, the Prime Minister of Spain, and other our foot down. EU leaders. It is also signed by the Prime Ministers of a number of Nordic and Baltic countries, together with How are the Government approaching the negotiations the Polish Prime Minister. It is about building up a on annex 11 of the staff regulations, which deals with sense of alliance, and it is reported in today’s Financial annual salary adjustments? It strikes our Committee Times under the headline, “Cameron steps up moves to that the procedure by which the exception clause is rebuild links with Europe”. I trust that that is being being invoked is tantamount to a breach of natural done on an entirely realistic basis. justice, as the Commission, in effect, decides whether it should freeze the salaries of its own staff. I would be For example, to return to the point that I made to the grateful if the Minister explained how she would like Economic Secretary, I hope that the group getting a this procedure to be amended. blocking minority and voting consistently against the measures in question will include a sufficient number of member states to ensure that the Commission cannot Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Would it not be get away with what is no more or less than the manipulation natural justice for European bureaucrats to have exactly of the rather arcane formulae contained in the regulations. the same conditions as our own civil service, with no The European Scrutiny Committee is deeply concerned additional money being paid by this country so that about the situation, as other Members will be. they get an add-on to their salaries? I entirely agree that the European Commission’s analysis is faulty, and it is also completely out of date, to say the very least. I am being rather generous in saying that, Mr Cash: I certainly agree with that, and I would say because it has fitted the facts to what it wants to hear. the same about the European Parliament and the analogy That is why the Committee describes what it has done with this House. The reality is that there is an air of as “self-serving”. As my hon. Friend the Member for unreality. In the words of T. S. Eliot, North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) said, there is “Humankind cannot bear very much reality.” also the problem that the Commission is the judge and jury in its own case. It is time that we sorted this out. 783 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 784

5.52 pm it is very useful to have people telling us that perhaps we have not got it right. Even at my modest level as a Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I stand together Member of Parliament, I like my staff to tell me when I with the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, of have got something wrong. I do not sack them; I say “I which I am delighted to be a member, on this issue. thank you for your comments, and I’ve got to think When we have these debates, I worry about the constant about this.”Occasionally they put me right, and sometimes references to Europe. Europe is a wonderful place; I go I am right, but debate of that kind is always healthy in a there for my vacations and I love everything about it. democracy. It is anti-democratic to sack somebody simply The European Union is not Europe; it is a political for disagreeing or criticising. In the end, we always do construct invented by someone or other and imposed things by debating and voting, one hopes, with openness on the peoples of Europe. We should always refer to the and transparency. European Union, because that is what we are discussing; it does not even cover all the countries of Europe. I have a story from a few years ago. Someone I knew My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and who was involved in Brussels arrangements drifted into Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) talked about making alliances. a meeting unexpectedly and found senior officials discussing Some alliances are little short of conspiracies against among themselves whom they wanted to get into the countries’ peoples. The Greek Government are made up post of Social Affairs Commissioner. They openly said, of PASOK, an allegedly socialist party, and New “We don’t want Social Affairs to be effective because it Democracy, an allegedly conservative party, standing is only there as a decoration to get trade unionists and together against their own people. In the elections, at socialists onside, so we want somebody weak and ineffectual. least 43% of the population will vote for the left and Who shall we have?”Eventually they found an innocuous, probably an equal number will vote for right-wing sufficiently weak commissioner from one of the minor parties that are not even represented in their Parliament. eastern European countries—I will not mention the When Front Benchers start to agree with each other name—to make sure that the post was not effective. The against their own peoples, democracy is in danger. We person sat in the room astonished at what was going on. should sometimes take different views, and when we The officials were deciding who the commissioner was form alliances, we should do so on the basis of what we going to be, and of course it transpired that that is who believe in, and not for political convenience in order to it was. conspire. That is how the European Union operates. It is very On salaries at the European Union, I believe that anti-democratic, secretive and closed. We cannot get a senior officials there have been bought for generations. verbatim report, or any kind of report, of what goes on When I worked as a scribe at the TUC some 35 years in the Council of Ministers. When the European Council ago, one of our colleagues, who was left of centre, was meets, a decision is made by officials before it meets. suddenly jetted off to Brussels to become a European People talk for a couple of hours in the meeting, and Union, or Common Market, official. His salary was they come out and the decision is adopted. It was been astronomical, and he had to pay no national taxes. It drafted beforehand and is invariably accepted, because was obvious that he was plucked out so that he could be that is the way things work. Let us not pretend that we bought. The people in Brussels wanted to pick out some are involved in some thrusting, democratic organisation—it key people of the left from the trade union movement, is a bureaucratic structure where people are expected to which was sceptical about the Common Market, and fall into line. get them over there literally to buy their loyalty. I would enter a caveat for low-paid staff in any Bob Stewart: It is not just about salaries but benefits organisation—cleaners, security officers, people who in kind and allowances—duty-free cars and things like work in the restaurants, and so on, who should have that. These are incredible perks that no one else in trade unions representing them to make sure that they Europe gets. have reasonable pay. We are talking about the highly paid officials who are part of the slush fund of the Kelvin Hopkins: This may be a light-hearted comment, European Union and are clearly looking after themselves, but it always strikes me that people I have known who with those who believe in this organisation being prepared have gone to work in the European Union come back to turn a blind eye to their vast salaries because they with a rather fuller figure than when they went. I may want to secure their loyalty for the foreseeable future. be wrong, but that is the impression I get. They are The whole structure needs to be opened up so that we certainly loyal to their new organisation. have proper democratic controls at every level. If the European Union is serious about reducing Mr Stewart Jackson: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman administrative costs, the way to achieve that is to cut for consistently being right on this subject. Does he out some of the things that it does. For example, there think it is rather perverse and insidious that one of the would be a substantial reduction in administrative costs caveats attached to someone being awarded a pension if we got rid of the common fisheries policy and abandoned by these European institutions is that they are specifically the common agricultural policy, as we should. We have proscribed from criticising those organisations? Perhaps talked about the repatriation of regional policy. If that is something that the Deputy Prime Minister takes Governments decided what was appropriate for their on board on a regular basis. regions, moneys would not be sent directly to our regions by Brussels, but would come through our Governments. Kelvin Hopkins: It is a feature of all authoritarian If those unnecessary activities were repatriated, the regimes that they cannot bear criticism, particularly administrative costs of the EU would be dramatically from the inside. In a healthy democracy, we should reduced and it would be a much more acceptable accept challenges from time to time. If we are governing, organisation. 785 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 786

[Kelvin Hopkins] the lawyer said, “It is inconceivable—inconceivable!—that the judges themselves could be beneficiaries of the I support the motion and commend the hon. Member scheme on which they had ruled.” I said, “It may be for Stone (Mr Cash), the Chair of the Committee, for inconceivable, but is it possible to find out?” bringing it to the House. A parliamentary answer from Lord Malloch-Brown, the then Foreign Office Minister, to a question from 6pm Lord Lester of Herne Hill, was helpful in that regard. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): The Lord Malloch-Brown states: exemption clause states: “The terms and conditions for judges and advocates-general of “If there is a serious and sudden deterioration in the economic the European Court of Justice…are set out in European Communities and social situation within the Community, assessed in the light staff regulations.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 18 June 2008; of objective data supplied for this purpose by the Commission, Vol. 702, c. WA166.] the latter shall submit appropriate proposals on which the Council The staff regulations are subject to the system whereby shall act in accordance with the procedure laid down in Article 283 of the EC Treaty”, the terms and conditions may be changed in exceptional circumstances. I therefore looked at the regulations, which has subsequently changed. The EU has decided thinking once again that it surely cannot be true that the that there has never been such an exception, even though EU—an institution that might not be liked and loved by we have been through the most extraordinary economic many, but that is thought to understand basic principles crisis in the past few years. of justice—has a situation in which judges decide on Yesterday, European Committee B discussed a their own pay rise. Commission document that states: I therefore looked through “Title 1: General provisions”, “EU economic growth is faltering. In the euro area, this is exacerbated by the sovereign debt crisis and fragilities in the article 1(21)(73)(96), which sounds very scientific. The banking sector. These have created a dangerous feedback loop.” provision states: The Commission says that the economy faces a crisis “These Staff Regulations shall apply to officials of the and that it is in a “dangerous feedback loop” but that Communities.” there is no reason on earth why it should consider the The document goes on to state: salaries that it and others who work within EU institutions “For the purposes of these Staff Regulations, ‘official of the are paid. Communities’ means any person who has been appointed, as The Minister has said that the economic situation in provided for in these Staff Regulations, to an established post on the staff of one of the institutions of the Communities”. this country is serious enough for a freeze in public pay, and we know that the EU prescription for Greece and The next step was to check what exactly are the institutions other countries that face economic crisis is austerity of the EU, because I still could not believe that there and pay cuts, but when it comes to the EU institutions, was such an affront to justice within the EU. I would the situation is different—they say there is no real crisis have been very surprised had the European Court of or problem, and no exceptional circumstances, and that Justice turned out to be such an institution, but when I they must therefore carry on regardless. Can that possibly looked at article 13 of the treaty on the functioning of be a proper, moral or respectable way for an international the European Union, I found that the Court of Justice body to proceed? of the European Union, as it is properly called, is indeed one of the institutions of the EU. And yet What can the Government do about it? So far, they according to the Commission, the Court’s judges had have rightly pointed out to the Commission that they ruled so clearly that exceptional circumstances did not think the circumstances are exceptional and have tried exist. to persuade it to change the basis for raising salaries, but the Commission has refused, with the backing of Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con) the European Court of Justice, which I shall come to in rose— a moment. The Government could, however, take another action. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I will of course give way to my Under article 336 of the treaty on the functioning of the hon. and learned Friend. European Union, Governments are entitled to change the employment terms of people employed by EU Stephen Phillips: I may or may not be the lawyer who institutions. If those terms are changed, the exceptional described the idea that judges could be beneficiaries of circumstances clause could be removed or changed—the a scheme on which they had ruled idea as “inconceivable”, whole basis for pay increases could be changed. That is but does my hon. Friend agree that if true, far from where the Government ought to start. They should say being inconceivable, it is utterly disgraceful? to other member states that the employment terms and conditions no longer apply and are no longer relevant Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. and for the circumstances that we face. They can do so even learned Friend because he gave me time to find the right if the Commission objects—that is in the treaty. quotation in my papers, which shows that he is even On the Court, in 2009 the Council instructed the wiser and more helpful than I had thought. The Commission to use the exceptional circumstances clause. Commission says that the Court found, in paragraph 74 The Commission took the council to court and won the of its judgment, that an extraordinary situation did not judgment of the EU in case C-40/10. The Court held exist, and that it must enable that exceptional circumstances did not exist, and therefore “account to be taken of the consequences of a deterioration in overrode what the Council had done and reinstated the the economic and social situation which is both serious and Commission’s proposals, which was interesting. When I sudden…under the normal method”. raised the point with a lawyer, and said, “Well, what The decision was that the economic and social situation about the judges themselves? How are they paid?” was not serious and sudden enough. 787 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 788

Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. structures of the EU, and another for the millions ruled Gentleman agree that the situation he has so clearly by them and on whom it imposes its wishes. Social described is just one example of how incestuous the EU disorder is now appearing on the streets of Greece, Italy system has become? One layer perpetuates and supports and other European countries. One can understand why the other. If we are to get to grips with such arrangements, people are angry at the imposition of rules by people the only thing the Government can do is make it clear who seem totally out of touch and by institutions that, that we will not continue to finance them? as the hon. Member for North East Somerset clearly explained, are so incestuous in their decision making—they Jacob Rees-Mogg: I have great sympathy with what collaborate with each other, supporting one layer of the the hon. Gentleman says. We ought to start thinking institution with another layer—so we are bound to get about withholding money. I have long had doubts about the kind of reaction we have seen. how the EU works and the ratchet, but I had the idea that the judges—though they may have a political objective; Stephen Phillips: The hon. Gentleman says that the though they may be in favour of a federal Europe; and institutions of the EU are out of touch, but of course, though they may push the law to the most extreme in the case of judges, they are also unelected and, it point to make the case for a federal European state—would would seem, unanswerable to anybody. Does he agree? not break basic principles of natural justice. The principle is nemo iudex in causa sua—a famous principle judged Sammy Wilson: That is one reason why we get the on and upheld in this country for centuries, and not just kind of decisions we get from EU judges—whether they in this country, but abrogated in the EU. are about whom we can deport from the UK or about I am glad to say, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the pay structures for EU civil servants. requirement not to be rude about judges applies only to Some will say that those who take my stance simply judges in this country. It does not apply to judges in the want to have a go at Europe. I have absolutely no EU, so let me be rude about them. Let me indulge in the hesitation in saying that I am a member of the Better floccinaucinihilipilification of EU judges and quote Off Out group. I believe that we ought to loosen our ties from the book of Amos about them: with the EU so that it is what was originally intended—a “For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty free-trade area, not a political entity. But I want to leave sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the my political views aside for a moment. I am pleased that poor in the gate from their right.” the Prime Minister has taken the stance that he has in Those are the judges of the EU. Her Majesty’s Government recent days on Europe, and I hope that he does not are right to stand up to them. They do not deserve their weaken it. I hope that he keeps the strong backbone money and it is iniquitous that they have allowed themselves that he has shown. However, one way of hurting the EU to be judges in their own cause. It is a breach of justice; is for us to say, “We’re not prepared to finance this it ought to be criminal. grotesque behaviour in the face of the austerity affecting all the EU nations.” 6.9 pm Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): It is a great joy need not feel alone. Does he not realise that 50%, if not to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset more—a majority—of the public want a referendum on (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—although, I must say, I do not think the EU, precisely because they want to return to the that I can follow his eloquence, knowledge and so on. relationship that they thought they were voting for I want to put on the record where the Democratic when they voted to join the original Common Market? Unionist party stands on this issue. Members on both sides of the House have expressed their opinion on the Sammy Wilson: I thank the hon. Lady for her decision to increase salaries and remuneration for those intervention. If the Prime Minister wants his hand who work in the European Union. That will be financed strengthened in his arguments with Europe on budgetary by taxpayers from the United Kingdom at a time when issues, and Europe’s interference with our courts and we are imposing austerity measures on our own population, the rules affecting this country, one way of doing so is when our own public servants are being asked to accept to have the backing of the people, in a referendum, for a pay freezes and when many people in the private sector different relationship with Europe. When one sees this are taking pay cuts. At the same time, the countries of kind of insular attitude being adopted, one understands the EU are telling the people of Greece, Italy and the why there will be increasing support for a referendum Irish Republic that their Governments must cut back to allowing for a change in the relationship. the point that jobs are lost and salaries are cut. So for those who make and impose these decisions to then say, Stephen Pound: As one who voted enthusiastically yes “By the way, we’re exempt”, will strike many people as in the early ’70s, swept away, intoxicated by Margaret grossly unfair and grotesque. Thatcher’s endorsement of it, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that many people seeking a referendum simply wish to Bob Stewart: There must be huge anger in all EU underline once and for all that this is no longer a states, which are all going through exactly the same question that we should return to every year, and that problems as we are. I just do not understand why other many of those seeking a referendum are pro-Europeans—a countries in Europe are not as angry as we are in the group among whom I proudly number myself. Chamber about the suggested increase in salaries. Sammy Wilson: Ironically, the pro-Europeans are the Sammy Wilson: That is quite right. Any objective people who have most vigorously opposed such a observer is bound to be angry about the fact that there referendum. If the hon. Gentleman believed what he was seems to be one set of rules for those cosseted within the saying, he would join me in saying, “Let’s have a referendum. 789 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 790

[Sammy Wilson] wait for this one— “despite short-term indicators pointing to an ongoing slowing of Let’s hear what the people say”, although I suspect that economic activity in the EU, the overall growth performance for he and many like him are afraid of what the people’s this year is still relatively strong.” verdict might be. The one thing that I can be sure of is that this issue will reinforce the case that many of us in You couldn’t make this nonsense up. They are meant to the House are making—that we ought to consider how be economic experts in the Commission, but they can our relationship with Europe can be altered so that we still print, publish and stand by judgments such as that, do not end up financing this kind of nonsense. when all the evidence to any sentient human being is to the effect that the downside risks to the EU economy are very considerable indeed. 6.17 pm Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): We The second comedy classic in that document is where should be grateful to the European Scrutiny Committee the Commission is rebutting the call from the Council for throwing a spotlight on yet another example of an to trigger the exception clause: unconscionable lack of accountability on the part of “General government deficit within the EU is projected to Eurocrats at the expense of democratically elected decrease further from close to 7% in both 2009 and 2010 to Governments. Ostensibly, the determination of pay and 4.7% in 2011 according to the Autumn and Spring Forecasts. pension contributions for EU civil servants is the preserve Fiscal consolidation is forecasted to progress with public deficits set to decline”— of the Council, in co-decision with the European Parliament and on the basis of qualified majority voting. That is the Commission was talking about the annual deficit, what it says, but of course, as we have heard today in by the way—and, wait for this: eloquent speeches from those on the Government Front “even though EU public debt remains a constant concern for the Bench and, in particular, my hon. Friend the Member EU economy at least since 2007.” for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), the Commission has frustrated the will of the democratically Well, you can say that again. We have seen colossal elected and accountable politicians. debt-to-GDP ratios right across the continent, including As my hon. Friend said very eloquently, at the beginning in this country. Added to that heady brew of incompetent of 2011 the Council decided to invoke the exemption economic forecasting and putting a rosy glow on a clause allowing for a departure from the automatic fairly dangerous economic position, the Commission uprating of remuneration in the event of a serious or prayed in aid the precedent set by the European Court sudden deterioration in the economic or social conditions of Justice, as we heard earlier, referring to the fact that in the EU. It is fairly clear that the Commission ignored the Court had ruled that the EU was not facing an that decision but was required to publish a review after extraordinary situation. So our old friend the European being asked to reconsider. The Commission came to the Court of Justice intervened, in support of the Commission. conclusion, however, that there should still be a We have already heard that the circumstances in this 1.7% increase in remuneration and a cut—I repeat, a country and other mature industrialised economies in cut—in the contributions of civil servants to their pension the EU are dire, so we should congratulate ourselves on pot. This is at a time, I hasten to add, when, in this the noticeable public constraint that this Government country, owing to longevity and the rising cost of pensions, have imposed, introducing a two-year pay freeze, followed we are asking for higher contributions from public by two years of average rises of 1%. However, we in this servants. country are paying very large amounts of money, as part of the net EU contribution; and as we know, that Bob Stewart: To my hon. Friend’s knowledge, has the figure will go up from this year to the last year of this European Union ever been asked to cut its own civil Parliament. This will outrage members of the British service—or has it done so itself—by such-and-such a public—hard-working taxpayers who are seeing their percent, as we have had to do in this country? private pensions hit, perhaps with the final salary schemes or corporate plans that they are part of closing down, Mr Ruffley: I am terribly pleased that my hon. Friend as they face redundancy or lose their jobs. asks that question. The House of Commons Library told me, about two hours ago, that spending on It is worth reminding ourselves what contribution the remuneration and pension contributions for EU civil British taxpayer is making to the pensions that are the servants from 2005 to last year went up by a staggering subject of this evening’s motion. The cost to the British 63% in cash terms. So “No cuts” is the answer to his taxpayer of gold-plated pensions for retired European pertinent question. bureaucrats is expected to double in the next 30 years When the Commission argued in the summer of 2011 unless action is taken—by the way, those are the European that there were no triggers under the exemption clause—it Commission’s own projections. If we go further out—say, argues that there was no serious or sudden deterioration 50 years—the total contribution from Britain to EU in the economic or social conditions in Europe—it civil servants’ pensions will be a staggering £8.5 billion, came up with a couple of what I can only call classics. which is again a EUROSTAT figure. Many EU civil They are comedy gold, and with your permission, servants qualify for pensions worth up to three quarters Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to quote from the of their final pay packet on retirement. The average Commission’s report. It says: annual pension for a retired EU civil servant is just under £60,000 a year. The number of retired civil servants “The forecasts released by DG ECFIN on 10 November 2011 show worsening trends for 2011 as compared to the Forecast entitled to EU-sponsored pensions is expected to increase released in spring both as regards economic and social indicators from 17,500 this year to 37,500 in 2040. These are large and that the European economy is currently experiencing a amounts of money which, unless we act, will go towards turmoil. However”— financing a large pension burden. 791 Remuneration of EU Staff21 FEBRUARY 2012 Remuneration of EU Staff 792

I would like to close by reminding the House of what Several hon. Members have asked what action the exactly we are getting for our money. Let us remember Government will take to deliver on our tough stance. In how utterly useless those civil servants are who do work the ongoing review of the staff regulations, we are in the new EU global diplomatic corps, the European seeking to deliver savings in a number of ways: first, by External Action Service, and how nugatory their beneficial cutting the package of allowances for EU staff, especially impact on the lives of British people is. The service will the 16% expatriation allowance; secondly, by improving have an annual budget of £5.8 billion and an army of the affordability of EU pensions, which I know my hon. ambassadors across 137 embassies, with up to 7,000 Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley) European civil servants who will benefit from the will be pleased to hear; and thirdly, by adjusting the arrangements that we are debating this evening. The EU system for EU staff pay so that we can avoid higher pay will have a surprising 46 full-time diplomats in the in future. That adjustment involves a complicated method Caribbean holiday destination of Barbados. The diplomatic with which some colleagues will be familiar. corps, which was set up recently, will have 29 diplomats in Tajikistan, 53 in Madagascar, no fewer than 59 in Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Minister has just Burkina Faso, 21 in Costa Rica, 46 in Mauritania, 39 in nodded towards the hon. Member with the wonderful the Indian ocean holiday destination of Mauritius, tie, the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley)— 26 in Namibia and 27 in Papua New Guinea. Mr Ruffley: Touché! Bob Stewart: Papua New Guinea? Chris Bryant: I think that his tie and mine are from Mr Ruffley: It gets even better: the tiny Pacific island the same shop. In fact, I know they are. The hon. nation of Vanuatu, which has a population of around Gentleman read out a long list of places where he 200,000, will have six European civil servants to look thought there should be either no representation or after British interests, and there will be thousands more minimal representation, including Papua New Guinea. at EEAS headquarters in Brussels, and in Paris, Vienna, Papua New Guinea has a high level of representation Rome and—let us not forget our old friend—Strasbourg. because it has the second largest rain forest in the world, and it is essential to climate change work. If the EU is Mark Reckless: Will my hon. Friend give way? to perform its work effectively, it needs representation there, and I hope that the Minister will not succumb to Mr Ruffley: I am coming to the end of my remarks. easy attacks. We have had an interesting debate today, and I am delighted to hear from the Economic Secretary about Miss Smith: Nor will I succumb to interventions that the hard line that the Government are taking. However, could take us far beyond the scope of today’s debate. I I shall close my remarks by asking her to explain know, however, that the hon. Gentleman will be particularly precisely what the next step in this story will be. We pleased to hear that the lobby that we have put in place know that there is a court case. We await the details to give effect to our tough stance has already had an from her of when it will take place and what the likely effect. For example, the Commission, having been put options are if for some reason the European Court of under pressure, is preparing to reduce European Union Justice does not find in favour of the Council, which, staff levels by 5% between 2014 and 2020. with all its faults, is—I repeat—composed of democratically elected politicians. Returning to the actions taken in the past year to deliver the agenda for EU administrative spending, and to what we are doing on staff regulations reform, I can 6.30 pm tell the House that the UK has been a signatory to two Miss Chloe Smith: I thank colleagues on both sides of joint letters calling on the Commission to deliver the House for an interesting and consensual exchange “significant” savings in EU administrative spending of views. The British Parliament has clearly said today over the next multi-annual financial framework. One that it believes that the Commission’s proposals to was signed by 17 member states, and it represents a increase EU staff pay are unacceptable, and that they strong blocking minority, which I know my hon. Friend serve only to demonstrate how out of touch the institution the Member for Stone (Mr Cash)—who has moved is with the domestic challenges that we face. This shows from his place—will be happy to note. He will be how important it is to act in our national interest, pleased to know that we intend to hold that strong financially and politically. blocking minority together as we press for more specific changes to the way in which the EU institutions work. I shall do my best to respond to the questions that have been raised in the debate. If I leave out any details, I refer hon. Members to two more letters, one of I shall attempt to furnish colleagues with that information which is dated 20 February 2012 and deals with a plan in other ways if they so wish. I shall respond first to for growth in Europe. It has been signed by 12 European some of the political points that have been made. It was Union leaders, and it talks about the effort that we must suggested that the Prime Minister’s actions in looking all make to put our national and international finances after our national financial interests could have left the on a sustainable footing. In the second, dated 18 December UK isolated in Europe, but it is clear to most Members 2010, our Prime Minister and those of four other that he has stood up for the UK’s national interests. countries state that the challenge to the European Union Indeed, even President Sarkozy said last week at the is not to spend more but to spend better. Anglo-French summit that he might have acted in the A number of questions were asked about the cost of same way. In contrast, the former Prime Minister gave court cases. The costs of the 2009 court case were met up a large slice of our rebate, leaving us £2 billion a year from existing Council budgets, as per normal standards. worse off, as has been ably pointed out. However, it is clearly not ideal to deal with these matters 793 Remuneration of EU Staff 21 FEBRUARY 2012 794

[Miss Chloe Smith] FINANCIAL SERVICES BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) through court cases. Clearly we need to seek deeper Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing reform, and that is what we are endeavouring to do. I Order No. 83A(7)), was asked whether we should distinguish between high That the Order of 6 February (Financial Services Bill (Programme)) and low earning EU staff. Other hon. Members have be varied, in paragraph 2, by the substitution for Tuesday 20 March spoken eloquently about this today, notably in respect of Thursday 22 March.—(Mr Dunne.) of the judiciary. EU officials fall into the category of Question agreed to. highly paid officials, and we therefore think that they are a legitimate target for key financial savings. Business without Debate My hon. Friend the Member for Stone asked whether the Government were taking a blocking minority on the 2010 EU budget discharge. I am afraid he is still not in EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS his place to hear my answer, but I shall be happy to Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing discuss it with him later. At ECOFIN today, the UK Order No. 119(11)), voted against that; it was not, in technical terms, a blocking minority. ANNUAL GROWTH SURVEY 2012 My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset That this House takes note of European Union Document (Jacob Rees-Mogg) asked how the Commission could No. 17229/11 and Addenda 1 to 4, relating to a Commission possibly not invoke this course of action, and said that Communication: Annual Growth Survey 2012; supports the the economic situation was patently a crisis. I know that Government’s view that this document sends important messages he will welcome my agreeing with him on that. There is about the urgency of pursuing both fiscal consolidation and patently an economic crisis, and highly paid officials structural reform; further supports the tough decisions being taken in the UK to bring the deficit under control and stimulate cannot be immune from that. I know that he will economic growth; welcomes the focus on EU-level reforms such appreciate being reminded that the Delphic oracle talked as the liberalisation of services and the development of the digital about “nothing in excess”. I believe that that applies to single market as a complement to Member States’ reform efforts EU salaries, and the House has eloquently agreed with but considers that an even greater effort is required at EU level to me today. stimulate growth; and agrees that the survey should not focus on taxation, as it is important for Member States to retain the Our debate today sends a clear signal that the flexibility to shape their own tax policies to suit their economic Commission must take the challenge of modernising its circumstances.—(Mr Dunne.) institutions far more seriously and, most important, it must work harder to deliver efficiency savings in The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 200. administration. Stopping an unjustified hike in EU staff Division No. 473] [6.39 pm pay is an obvious and good place to start, and our debate today sends a clear signal that we stand behind AYES the principle outlined in the court case brought against Adams, Nigel Brokenshire, James the Commission for refusing to take action on the 2011 Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette salary adjustment. Disputing higher staff pay in 2011 Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona was not only the right thing to do; it also highlighted Alexander, rh Danny Bruce, rh Malcolm the fact that the current process is defunct and cannot Amess, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert adapt properly to difficult economic circumstances. Andrew, Stuart Burley, Mr Aidan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, Conor Kate Hoey: If the court rules in the wrong way, if Bacon, Mr Richard Burns, rh Mr Simon Baker, Norman Burrowes, Mr David there is no change, and if all our protests here come to Baker, Steve Burstow, Paul nothing, does the Minister agree that no one in the Baldry, Tony Burt, Alistair European Union will listen unless the Government take Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Lorely back some of the money from the amount that we were Barclay, Stephen Byles, Dan going to pay? When are we going to do something Baron, Mr John Cable, rh Vince practical to show that we mean what we say, rather than Barwell, Gavin Cairns, Alun simply repeating all these warm words that never change Bebb, Guto Campbell, Mr Gregory anything? Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Benyon, Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Miss Smith: The hon. Lady makes a fine point. I Beresford, Sir Paul Carmichael, Neil want to reassure her that the Prime Minister has worked Berry, Jake Carswell, Mr Douglas hard during the past year to take serious action, and the Birtwistle, Gordon Cash, Mr William Chancellor has taken serious action at ECOFIN today Blackman, Bob Chishti, Rehman to demonstrate how seriously we take the improvement Blackwood, Nicola Clappison, Mr James of the way in which the EU budget is managed and Blunt, Mr Crispin Clark, rh Greg Boles, Nick spent. The action that she suggests might be at the far Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Bottomley, Sir Peter end of the spectrum, but we take the full agenda very Colvile, Oliver Bradley, Karen Cox, Mr Geoffrey seriously none the less. We are resolved to lobby hard Brady, Mr Graham Crabb, Stephen for cuts to EU administrative spending in future years, Brake, rh Tom Crockart, Mike as part of the real freeze in the overall EU budget over Bray, Angie Crouch, Tracey the next framework. I commend the motion to the Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, David T. C. House. Bridgen, Andrew (Monmouth) Question put and agreed to. Brine, Steve Davies, Glyn 795 Business without Debate21 FEBRUARY 2012 Business without Debate 796 de Bois, Nick James, Margot Penning, Mike Stride, Mel Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Percy, Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perry, Claire Stunell, Andrew Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swales, Ian Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Swinson, Jo Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Syms, Mr Robert Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Reckless, Mark Thurso, John Ellison, Jane Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Rees-Mogg, Jacob Timpson, Mr Edward Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Reevell, Simon Tomlinson, Justin Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Tredinnick, David Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Mr Andrew Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Tyrie, Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Rogerson, Dan Uppal, Paul Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rudd, Amber Vara, Mr Shailesh Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Ruffley, Mr David Vickers, Martin Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Russell, Sir Bob Walker, Mr Charles Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Sanders, Mr Adrian Wallace, Mr Ben Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Sandys, Laura Walter, Mr Robert Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Scott, Mr Lee Ward, Mr David Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Selous, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Shannon, Jim Wharton, James Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Wheeler, Heather Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sharma, Alok White, Chris Gauke, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David Shelbrooke, Alec Whittaker, Craig George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Simmonds, Mark Wiggin, Bill Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Simpson, David Williams, Roger Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Stephen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Gavin Glen, John Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Wilson, Sammy Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Wright, Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Wright, Simon Green, Damian McCartney, Karl Stanley, rh Sir John Young, rh Sir George Greening, rh Justine McCrea, Dr William Stephenson, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Bob Tellers for the Ayes: Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Jenny Willott and Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Stewart, Rory James Duddridge Hames, Duncan Mercer, Patrick Hammond, rh Mr Philip Metcalfe, Stephen NOES Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clark, Katy Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Alexander, Heidi Clwyd, rh Ann Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Ali, Rushanara Coffey, Ann Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Anderson, Mr David Connarty, Michael Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Austin, Ian Cooper, Rosie Harvey, Nick Morris, James Bain, Mr William Corbyn, Jeremy Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Crausby, Mr David Hayes, Mr John Mowat, David Bayley, Hugh Creasy, Stella Heald, Oliver Mulholland, Greg Beckett, rh Margaret Cryer, John Heath, Mr David Mundell, rh David Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Alex Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Mr Jim Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Tony Hendry, Charles Neill, Robert Blears, rh Hazel Curran, Margaret Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Blenkinsop, Tom Dakin, Nic Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Blomfield, Paul Danczuk, Simon Hollingbery, George Norman, Jesse Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben David, Mr Wayne Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Brown, Lyn Davidson, Mr Ian Hopkins, Kris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davies, Geraint Horwood, Martin Offord, Mr Matthew Brown, Mr Russell Dobbin, Jim Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Bryant, Chris Dobson, rh Frank Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Buck, Ms Karen Docherty, Thomas Huhne, rh Chris Parish, Neil Burden, Richard Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hunter, Mark Patel, Priti Byrne, rh Mr Liam Doran, Mr Frank Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Campbell, Mr Alan Dowd, Jim Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Chapman, Mrs Jenny Doyle, Gemma 797 Business without Debate21 FEBRUARY 2012 Business without Debate 798

Eagle, Ms Angela McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, Mr Iain Eagle, Maria McKechin, Ann Wood, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Edwards, Jonathan McKenzie, Mr Iain Woodcock, John Chris Ruane and Efford, Clive McKinnell, Catherine Wright, David Graham Jones Ellman, Mrs Louise Meale, Sir Alan Engel, Natascha Mearns, Ian Esterson, Bill Michael, rh Alun Question accordingly agreed to. Evans, Chris Mitchell, Austin Field, rh Mr Frank Moon, Mrs Madeleine Fitzpatrick, Jim Morden, Jessica DELEGATED LEGISLATION Flello, Robert Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Flynn, Paul Morris, Grahame M. Order No. 118(6)), Fovargue, Yvonne (Easington) Francis, Dr Hywel Mudie, Mr George LICENCES AND LICENSING Gapes, Mike Munn, Meg That the draft Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Gardiner, Barry Murphy, rh Mr Jim Hours) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 12 January, Gilmore, Sheila Murphy, rh Paul be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Glass, Pat Murray, Ian Glindon, Mrs Mary Nash, Pamela Question agreed to. Goggins, rh Paul O’Donnell, Fiona Goodman, Helen Onwurah, Chi Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): We now Green, Kate Owen, Albert come to motion 8, on the Adjournment of the House. Greenwood, Lilian Pearce, Teresa Griffith, Nia Perkins, Toby Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, Hain, rh Mr Peter Pound, Stephen Mr Deputy Speaker. As you will know, and as is stated Hamilton, Mr David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick in Standing Order No. 21, oral questions may be taken Hamilton, Fabian Reynolds, Emma on a Monday, a Tuesday, a Wednesday or a Thursday. Hanson, rh Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan However, the Standing Order makes no reference to a Harris, Mr Tom Riordan, Mrs Linda Friday. Can you confirm that Standing Order No. 11(4) Havard, Mr Dai Ritchie, Ms Margaret nevertheless allows the Speaker, on a Friday at 11 am, Healey, rh John Robertson, Angus to make provision for questions of an urgent nature to Hendrick, Mark Robertson, John be answered, or, for that matter, for Ministers to make a Hepburn, Mr Stephen Rotheram, Steve statement? I ask because the motion that we are about Hermon, Lady Roy, Mr Frank Heyes, David Roy, Lindsay to consider does not allow us to sit on Wednesday Hillier, Meg Ruddock, rh Dame Joan 28 March, and some of us fear that that might be Hodge, rh Margaret Sarwar, Anas because the Prime Minister is frightened of answering Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Seabeck, Alison questions in the House—[Interruption.] Hollobone, Mr Philip Sharma, Mr Virendra Hopkins, Kelvin Sheerman, Mr Barry Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. If I am to give a ruling Hosie, Stewart Sheridan, Jim one way or the other, I must be able to hear the question Howarth, rh Mr George Shuker, Gavin that I am being asked. Hunt, Tristram Skinner, Mr Dennis Irranca-Davies, Huw Slaughter, Mr Andy Chris Bryant: In particular—[Interruption.] James, Mrs Siân C. Smith, rh Mr Andrew Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Angela Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I must say to Sir Peter Jones, Mr Kevan Smith, Nick Bottomley that I will not know the answer to the hon. Jones, Susan Elan Smith, Owen Gentleman’s question until he has completed it. Joyce, Eric Spellar, rh Mr John Keeley, Barbara Straw, rh Mr Jack Chris Bryant: In particular, we note that 28 March is Khan, rh Sadiq Stringer, Graham the anniversary of the last occasion on which a Prime Lammy, rh Mr David Stuart, Ms Gisela Minister was ousted by virtue of a vote of confidence. Lavery, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Can you confirm, Mr Deputy Speaker, that if we were Lazarowicz, Mark Tami, Mark to sit on 23 March, which is a Friday, it would be Leslie, Chris Thomas, Mr Gareth Lloyd, Tony Thornberry, Emily perfectly possible for there to be questions to the Prime Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Timms, rh Stephen Minister, and indeed a statement from the Prime Minister, Long, Naomi Trickett, Jon if the Government tabled a motion to that effect? Lucas, Ian Turner, Karl MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Twigg, Derek Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Further Mactaggart, Fiona Twigg, Stephen to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Would it be Malhotra, Seema Umunna, Mr Chuka sensible—whether generally or just in the case of the Mann, John Vaz, Valerie hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—for Members Marsden, Mr Gordon Watts, Mr Dave to be asked to submit their points of order in writing, so McCabe, Steve Weir, Mr Mike that we could be spared the words that are unnecessary McCann, Mr Michael Whiteford, Dr Eilidh to the making of the actual point? McClymont, Gregg Whitehead, Dr Alan McDonagh, Siobhain Wicks, rh Malcolm Mr Deputy Speaker: Let me say first that things can McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Williams, Hywel happen on a Friday, as was suggested by the hon. McDonnell, John Williamson, Chris Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), and secondly McFadden, rh Mr Pat Wilson, Phil that the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter McGovern, Jim Winnick, Mr David Bottomley) has certainly got his point on the record. 799 Business without Debate21 FEBRUARY 2012 Business without Debate 800

ADJOURNMENT (EASTER, MAY, WHITSUN, Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon SUMMER, CONFERENCE, NOVEMBER AND George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian CHRISTMAS) Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, rh Mr David Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Order No. 25), Glen, John Lopresti, Jack That this House— Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan (1) at its rising on Tuesday 27 March 2012, do adjourn until Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Monday 16 April 2012; Gove, rh Michael Luff, Peter (2) at its rising on Thursday 3 May 2012, do adjourn until Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Tuesday 8 May 2012; Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary (3) at its rising on Thursday 24 May 2012, do adjourn until Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Monday 11 June 2012; Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason (4) at its rising on Tuesday 17 July 2012, do adjourn until Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Monday 3 September 2012; Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick (5) at its rising on Tuesday 18 September 2012, do adjourn Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen until Monday 15 October 2012; Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark (6) at its rising on Tuesday 13 November 2012, do adjourn Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mercer, Patrick until Monday 19 November 2012; and Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen (7) at its rising on Thursday 20 December 2012, do adjourn Hancock, Matthew Miller, Maria until Monday 7 January 2013.—(Mr Heath.) Hancock, Mr Mike Mills, Nigel The House divided: Ayes 292, Noes 197. Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Division No. 474] [6.55 pm Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny AYES Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Adams, Nigel Cable, rh Vince Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Hayes, Mr John Mosley, Stephen Aldous, Peter Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heald, Oliver Mowat, David Alexander, rh Danny Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David Mulholland, Greg Amess, Mr David Carmichael, Neil Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Andrew, Stuart Carswell, Mr Douglas Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Chishti, Rehman Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Bacon, Mr Richard Chope, Mr Christopher Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Baker, Norman Clappison, Mr James Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Baker, Steve Clark, rh Greg Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Baldry, Tony Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Baldwin, Harriett Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Barclay, Stephen Colvile, Oliver Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Baron, Mr John Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howell, John O’Brien, Mr Stephen Barwell, Gavin Crockart, Mike Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Mr Matthew Bebb, Guto Crouch, Tracey Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric Beith, rh Sir Alan Davies, David T. C. Hunter, Mark Ottaway, Richard Benyon, Richard (Monmouth) Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, Glyn Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Berry, Jake de Bois, Nick James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Birtwistle, Gordon Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Blackman, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Blackwood, Nicola Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Blunt, Mr Crispin Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Perry, Claire Boles, Nick Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Bottomley, Sir Peter Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bradley, Karen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Brady, Mr Graham Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Brake, rh Tom Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Bray, Angie Ellison, Jane Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pugh, John Brazier, Mr Julian Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Reckless, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brine, Steve Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reevell, Simon Brokenshire, James Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bruce, Fiona Evennett, Mr David Bruce, rh Malcolm Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Buckland, Mr Robert Fallon, Michael Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan Burley, Mr Aidan Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Burns, Conor Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Burns, rh Mr Simon Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Burrowes, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Russell, Sir Bob Burstow, Paul Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Rutley, David Burt, Alistair Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Sanders, Mr Adrian Burt, Lorely Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Mr Edward Sandys, Laura Byles, Dan Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee 801 Business without Debate21 FEBRUARY 2012 Business without Debate 802

Selous, Andrew Tredinnick, David Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Shapps, rh Grant Tyrie, Mr Andrew Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Sharma, Alok Uppal, Paul Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Shelbrooke, Alec Vara, Mr Shailesh Hendrick, Mark Pound, Stephen Simmonds, Mark Vickers, Martin Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Simpson, Mr Keith Walker, Mr Charles Hermon, Lady Reynolds, Emma Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Robin Heyes, David Reynolds, Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe Wallace, Mr Ben Hillier, Meg Ritchie, Ms Margaret Smith, Henry Walter, Mr Robert Hilling, Julie Robertson, Angus Smith, Julian Ward, Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Robertson, John Smith, Sir Robert Watkinson, Angela Hollobone, Mr Philip Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Soubry, Anna Wharton, James Hopkins, Kelvin Rotheram, Steve Stanley, rh Sir John Wheeler, Heather Hosie, Stewart Roy, Mr Frank Stephenson, Andrew White, Chris Howarth, rh Mr George Roy, Lindsay Stevenson, John Whittaker, Craig Hunt, Tristram Ruane, Chris Stewart, Bob Wiggin, Bill Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Stewart, Iain Williams, Roger James, Mrs Siân C. Sarwar, Anas Stewart, Rory Williams, Stephen Jamieson, Cathy Seabeck, Alison Stride, Mel Williamson, Gavin Jones, Mr Kevan Shannon, Jim Stuart, Mr Graham Willott, Jenny Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Stunell, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Jowell, rh Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Sturdy, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Swales, Ian Wright, Jeremy Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wright, Simon Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Swinson, Jo Yeo, Mr Tim Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Syms, Mr Robert Young, rh Sir George Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Zahawi, Nadhim Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Mr Andrew Thurso, John Tellers for the Ayes: Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela Timpson, Mr Edward James Duddridge and Long, Naomi Smith, Nick Tomlinson, Justin Stephen Crabb Lucas, Ian Smith, Owen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Spellar, rh Mr John Mactaggart, Fiona Straw, rh Mr Jack NOES Malhotra, Seema Stringer, Graham Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dakin, Nic Mann, John Stuart, Ms Gisela Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Danczuk, Simon Marsden, Mr Gordon Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Alexander, Heidi David, Mr Wayne McCabe, Steve Tami, Mark Anderson, Mr David Davidson, Mr Ian McCann, Mr Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth Austin, Ian Dobbin, Jim McCrea, Dr William Thornberry, Emily Bain, Mr William Dobson, rh Frank McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Timms, rh Stephen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Docherty, Thomas McDonnell, John Trickett, Jon Bayley, Hugh Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McFadden, rh Mr Pat Turner, Karl Beckett, rh Margaret Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McGovern, Jim Twigg, Derek Benton, Mr Joe Doran, Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Twigg, Stephen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dowd, Jim McKechin, Ann Vaz, Valerie Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma McKenzie, Mr Iain Watts, Mr Dave Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Ms Angela McKinnell, Catherine Weir, Mr Mike Bone, Mr Peter Eagle, Maria Meale, Sir Alan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan Mearns, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive Michael, rh Alun Wicks, rh Malcolm Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise Miliband, rh Edward Williams, Hywel Brown, Mr Russell Engel, Natascha Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Bryant, Chris Esterson, Bill Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wilson, Sammy Buck, Ms Karen Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Winnick, Mr David Burden, Richard Field, rh Mr Frank Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Byrne, rh Mr Liam Fitzpatrick, Jim Morris, Grahame M. Wood, Mike Campbell, Mr Alan Flello, Robert (Easington) Woodcock, John Mudie, Mr George Campbell, Mr Gregory Flynn, Paul Wright, David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne Munn, Meg Wright, Mr Iain Clark, Katy Francis, Dr Hywel Murphy, rh Paul Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gapes, Mike Murray, Ian Tellers for the Noes: Clwyd, rh Ann Gardiner, Barry Nash, Pamela Phil Wilson and Coffey, Ann Gilmore, Sheila O’Donnell, Fiona Graham Jones Connarty, Michael Glass, Pat Cooper, Rosie Glindon, Mrs Mary Question accordingly agreed to. Corbyn, Jeremy Goggins, rh Paul Crausby, Mr David Green, Kate Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a Creasy, Stella Greenwood, Lilian point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. If we now go on to Cruddas, Jon Griffith, Nia the private business for three hours, which will take us Cryer, John Hain, rh Mr Peter beyond 10 o’clock, is it the case that it will not be Cunningham, Alex Hamilton, Mr David possible to have a substantive vote on motion 11 on Cunningham, Tony Hamilton, Fabian sittings of the House and motion 12 on the business of Curran, Margaret Hanson, rh Mr David the House and private Members’ Bills? 803 Business without Debate 21 FEBRUARY 2012 804

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): There may be London Local Authorities Bill [Lords] Divisions, but they would be deferred. Further consideration of Bill, as amended Debate resumed ESTIMATES Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 145), Clause 9 That this House agrees with the Report [8 February] of the STREET TRADING: VEHICLES AND THE INTERNET Liaison Committee.—(Mr Heath.) Question agreed to. 7.10 pm Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): On a Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con):I beg point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would be grateful to move, amendment 22, to leave out clause 9. if you would help the House with the Speaker’s ruling relating to the question of whether this next private Bill Mr Deputy Speaker: With this we are taking amendments affects a public Bill and whether, in accordance with the 23, 24, 61, 41, 63, 25 to 27, 64, 28, 42, P1, 29, 30, 43, 66, precedents of the Bill dealing with the Piece hall in 67, 44, 45, 69 to 74, 31, 75, 46, 47, 32, 48, 49, P2, 33, 60, Halifax in 1983-84, because of that clash with a public 51, 76, 52 to 54, 77 to 82, 55, 34, 56 to 58 and P40. Bill it ought to be ruled invalid, as Speakers have previously ruled in former times. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Clause 9 makes further provision about street trading in relation to the sale of vehicles Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Mr Rees-Mogg, over the internet. Under the existing street trading you have a copy of a letter from the Speaker dated legislation in London, street trading is defined, broadly 17 February 2012, which goes into detail in response to speaking, as the selling, or the exposure or offer for sale, the question that you have raised. You are an intelligent of any article, and the supplying of, or offering to chap, and I am sure that you fully understand it. supply, any service in a street for gain or reward, whether or not the gain or reward accrues to the person actually carrying out the trade. It is unclear whether the sale of motor vehicles on the internet when the vehicle is kept on the highway is covered by that definition, but clause 9 will ensure that it is. That is my answer to the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer). It was an important and relevant intervention, because my concern has been about the criminalising of people who put their car outside their front door with a little label on it saying “For sale”, and of those who do not even put a little label on it but just list it on the internet and say that it is for sale and that it can be found outside No. 22 Acacia avenue. Some bossy bureaucrat may come round and say, “This is absolutely outrageous. You are not allowed to sell your car outside No. 22 Acacia avenue because that is a residential street, so we are fining you and we are going to put all sorts of fierce penalties on you.” That is why I added my name to amendment 22, which proposes to abolish the whole of clause 9—

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. One moment, Mr Rees- Mogg. As Mr Chope is still in his place, may I say that I have looked again at motions 11 and 12, and I wish to make it absolutely clear that if either of those motions is objected to after 10 pm, it could not be taken—there would be no deferred Division. I would like to clarify that for the record.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I was saying, I added my name to amendment 22, which seeks to remove clause 9, because that clause is a rather vicious clause. It is an unattractive and cruel clause, which attacks people who may simply be making an honest effort to earn their living. Broadly speaking, Conservatives are in favour of people earning their living; we think it is a good thing that people should earn an honest crust. We are not in favour of the something-for-nothing society—we think that that is a bad idea—and we believe in the historic liberties of the 805 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 806 [Lords] [Lords] [Jacob Rees-Mogg] can be levelled on people selling their car, but offering it on the internet is illegal and keeping it on the street for British subject. We believe in the freedom to have all the period that it is on the internet is illegal. That is very sorts of things, not only trial by jury but that great unfair, because someone can put something up on the historic freedom, which has built up over 100 years, to internet one week and it can then be cached—it can be sell one’s car outside one’s front door by putting a little caught—and it remains there ad infinitum. Someone notice on it. could have traded their car and completed the The marvellous technology that we have and the transaction—they could be the new buyer—but the car incredible electronics at our fingertips allow us to use could still appear on the internet under an historical little things in our pockets to sell our motor cars outside cache. They may then find that a council busybody—not our front door, whether we live at No. 22 Acacia avenue one wearing a bowler hat, because the councils did not or, for that matter, at No. 23, No. 24 or No. 25 Acacia seem enthused by that idea when I gave them it at an avenue. Wherever we live in Acacia avenue or in other earlier stage in the debate—or some odd-bod could similarly named streets—Laburnum drive comes to find, come along and say, “This car is now getting you a as one of these very good addresses—if we want to sell fine.” That is why I object— our car via the internet we clearly ought to be allowed to do so. It seems to me to be tremendously important Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will my hon. that amendment 22 should be carried by this House to Friend give way? remove a pernicious little clause. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): My hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg: It would be a privilege and an Friend does not have the air of a car salesman. honour. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful for that intervention. Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend refers to council officials I would be happy to be a car salesman, because that is today as “odd-bods”. When we considered the first an honourable and worthy profession. My reason for group of amendments on 7 December 2011, he referred saying that is because trading cars is the way to starting to parking attendants and council officials as “desperately in business. People can start off in a small way by scruffy tatterdemalions”. Has he subsequently received putting the little Morris Minor that they bought 20 years any adverse representations from any local authority ago outside their front door with a sticker on it saying, officials? “This car is for sale for £500, with MOT. It has not been clocked or had done to it any of those terrible things that rogues do.” Somebody might then come along and Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend give them £500, so they go out to buy a second-hand for that intervention. I ought to clarify things. A lot of Mini Cooper, which they sell for £800. They then buy a council officials are splendid fellows. They are good, second-hand Ford Cortina and sell it for £2,000. Eventually, honest, hard-working people who do a difficult job that they are buying Aston Martin DB5s and putting them I would not particularly like to do myself. I am very outside their front door with a price of £150,000—cheap grateful that I can find a parking space when I want at twice the price, some might say. That is before they one, as a resident. Some traffic wardens really are noble have even got on to thinking about Bentleys, great cars fellows. However, notwithstanding that, there are some that they are, too—although some might say that they carrying out these particularly pernicious activities whom are not quite as good as Aston Martins in their style I think we should discourage. We should try to persuade and sleek lines. them that their career opportunities lie elsewhere. To We need to get an entrepreneurial spirit and get answer my hon. Friend’s specific questions about people starting in business. How are we going to revive tatterdemalions, I have had very little response from this economy if we do not encourage the small business councils. I thought that I might be bombarded with man and the tall business man, too? I always feel that letters from councils. Perhaps these might have come this “heightism” on business men and business ladies, from people from the City of London saying, “This is who should not be excluded, is a bit unfair. We want to not how we dress in our borough.” Such letters might help enterprise. We know that job creation comes from have come from that other great city of London, small enterprises, not from big business. Historically—very Westminster, but no—there was no correspondence from good figures from the United States are available on them. None came from Barking and Dagenham; there this—big business has reduced its labour force, year in, was not a jot from Barnet; nor from Bexley, Brent or year out, and companies that are starting up develop Bromley. into bigger businesses employing more and more people. Camden was silent and Croydon had nothing to say on A fascinating statistic in this week’s edition of The Sunday the issue of whether council officers should be smart Times suggested that an American business, in its first and tidy. Ealing, Enfield, Greenwich—they were all two years of operation, increases the number of its lie-abeds, not a word, not a peep, not an utterance came employees by 160%, whereas an Italian company does from them. Hackney, Hammersmith—and Fulham, we so by 20%. That is because America, the land of free must not forget poor old Fulham—Haringey, Harrow, enterprise, encourages people to set up their own businesses Havering, Hillingdon and Hounslow; all of them were and to do things in a little way without this overburdening, horribly quiet on this important issue. Islington—one this overwhelming and this overweening regulation that would have thought that somebody from Islington might makes it so difficult for them to earn an honest crust. haveawordortwo— Clause 9 is where my objections are centred at the moment, but I can assure you, Mr Deputy Speaker, that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for I have many more objections to certain aspects of this Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): Will Bill to come. The clause states that “fees and charges” my hon. Friend give way? 807 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 808 [Lords] [Lords] Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course. I want to look at some of the other amendments. It is very disappointing that the city of Westminster, which Robert Neill: I do not want to prolong matters, but has been for decades one of the best run cities not just may I respectfully say to my hon. Friend that as a in London but in the world—if they had cities on the freeman of the London borough of Havering, I feel it is moon, it would be one of the best run in our part of the always important to pronounce the name of that borough solar system, but as far as I know they do not yet have correctly? cities on the moon, so I shall stick to the world—and is a fine, noble city run by great Conservative leaders who Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am very grateful for the correction. provided low council tax, low poll tax before that and I did think of saying in my best Eliza Doolittle tones, low rates before that— “’ackney, ’ammersmith, ’aringey, ’arrow, ’avering, ’illingdon and ’ounslow,” but I thought that I had better not Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): Community phrase myself in that way because, realistically, I am charge. probably more Professor Higgins than Eliza Doolittle in my normal pronunciation. Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend says community charge from a sedentary position, and I admire his We have missed out Kensington and Chelsea. They pedantry. I am delighted that there are people in this had nothing to say—not a word, not an utterance—about House who are more pedantic than I am. It is an how smart or otherwise their officers should be. Kingston admirable trait and one that I fear is not encouraged upon Thames, Lambeth, Lewisham—Lewisham, for often enough. heaven’s sake. Would one not have thought that the burghers of Lewisham would be up in arms defending Conor Burns: I was merely trying to correct my hon. the honour of their council officials? Merton was Friend’s description of that wonderful piece of legislation. mysteriously silent. From Newham, nothing. Redbridge? He might well not have heard that our right hon. and No, not an utterance. Richmond, Southwark, Sutton noble Friend Baroness Thatcher said she still referred to and Tower Hamlets: Tower Hamlets, a grand and noble it as a community charge because she was a great fan of borough on the edge of the City, with the great Tower of the Polish people and would never have tried to tax London nobly looking down upon it, had nothing to them. say. It has the Beefeaters to look at, so one would have thought it would be proud of having fine people who Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is, of course, extremely wise, are well dressed. Then there is Waltham Forest—I am as is anything the great lady says. In ancient Rome, the not particularly clear where Waltham Forest is, but it is Senate had a practice of deifying great leaders and if clearly a London borough of the utmost importance. I this were ancient Rome, I would propose that that great apologise to anybody here from that distinguished borough. lady be deified, but as it is not I feel that I had better In Wandsworth, they are a very good lot. They are very not, particularly as I am talking about clause 10 of the Tory, so I expect that they are all splendidly and finely London Local Authorities Bill, the City of Westminster attired in gold braid and so on, so when you see them Act 1999 and amendments thereto on street trading in coming you know that they are from Wandsworth and the city of Westminster. that they are proper gentlemen and ladies of the borough Those who have been paying close attention to what I rather than, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury have been saying will know that I am now up to North (Mr Nuttall) so rightly reminds me, tatterdemalions. amendment 26, which is on line eight on page six, to put On clause 9, which will make life so unpleasant for after the first reference to vehicle people, we made the basic, simple and clean proposition— “in the course of business”. that which is easiest and cleanest to absorb—that we That goes back to the crux of what I was saying about scrap the whole thing altogether. Bingo—gone. “Goodnight clause 9, that particularly pernicious and ghastly clause Charlie”, as cricket commentators say. I am not a that none of us like that will take effect in all the cricket commentator, so “Goodnight Charlie” is not boroughs across London, including the two cities. It is usually one of my phrases, but I thought it was apposite even less clear in clause 10, about the city of Westminster, on this occasion. whether it affects only business or residents, too. We tabled some other amendments in case the promoter of the Bill decided, through some eccentricity of their Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I own, not to remove the clause. The aim is to ensure that want to clarify and to pick up the point where we left off what the clause does is watered down, that it is limited some weeks ago. The amendment is accepted, and, to in its scope and that there is a proper burden of proof clarify, it is not meant to apply to Mr and Mrs Smith at on the authorities so that they must show that it really is 26 Acacia avenue but to those who seek to trade through business trading activity and not just an individual. It the internet in the course of business, which narrows might be an old lady, for example, who needs to supplement down the definition considerably. her pension and suddenly finds that she is not allowed Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am extremely grateful for that to sell her car and is penalised for doing so. Some of the intervention. Do I understand correctly: is amendment 26 amendments—23, 24, 61 and so on—try to clarify and accepted? to ameliorate the harshness of clause 9 and to allow a little free enterprise to be encouraged through the boroughs Mike Freer indicated assent. and cities of London. I am glad to say, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you now know the names of all the Jacob Rees-Mogg: Some people might wonder why boroughs and cities of the noble Greater London area, some of us speak for hours in these debates, but I must so I do not think I need to repeat them, although I say that is exactly why. By banging on a little, we get might do so later if I feel moved and if it is relevant to steady improvement and amelioration of the penalties the issue under discussion. on the British people. 809 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 810 [Lords] [Lords] [Jacob Rees-Mogg] in Wales, where my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) represents his constituency As I tried to explain in my opening remarks on this so nobly and so well—there should be a Bill that covers group of amendments, this is all about protecting the the whole of the United Kingdom. It may be a devolved liberty of individuals from the constant encroachment power, so we may not be able to legislate for Scotland, of the state, bit by bit, day by day, not to meet some Wales and Northern Ireland, although their Assemblies urgent or desperate cause, not because we are at war or may like to ask us to do so. However, if the problem is because we face terrorists, but because it is more not so widespread and if it is not a matter for public law, administratively convenient. One of the most important is it really right that in certain areas a private Bill should things that this Parliament can do is, by the proper institute the legal penalties with the full force of law scrutinising of legislation, ensure that the penalties on behind them that we get in Westminster and some individuals are always minimised and that the greatest London boroughs but not in Castle Point? Thus residents number of freedoms that can be preserved are preserved. in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) will not have the benefit for Finchley and Golders Green for notifying us of that of the Bill, but if they happened to move to London fact, which is a considerable improvement in the Bill and then decided to sell a car, they would risk being and helps us to get to where we want to go. caught out because they were not aware of the law. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): My hon. We are creating bad law from the start. One of the Friend is introducing this group of amendments with great principles of law is that it should be clear and such expertise. In fairness to our hon. Friend the Member simple to understand. It should not be arbitrary; it for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), he indicated should apply uniformly to each equally. Bringing in the some time ago that the promoter was prepared to type of law that is in the Bill is to make arbitrary law accept the amendment. I was surprised, however, by the with the full force of penalties behind it, including the implication in his intervention just now that it was possible confiscation of vehicles, if the person does not basically a drafting error that resulted in pay the fees and charges levied. Is that a reasonable way “in the course of business” to proceed? If the matter is so urgent and essential—to being left out of clause 10 whereas it was included in return to my earlier point—it ought to be a public Bill clause 9. If it was just a drafting error, it is surprising and the Government ought to be driving it through. that the Bill has gone through the other place and The problem should be dealt with in the country at through detailed consideration in Committee in this large; simply dealing with it in some London boroughs, House before that error emerged. in particular the City of Westminster, is not satisfactory. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Mr Chope: If the Bill goes through in its current state, for that point. It is, of course, human to err and divine the problem described by our hon. Friend the Member to forgive, so we will be very forgiving of that error in for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) could become worse. this instance. Residents involved in the motor trade in London will I do not like the clause at all. I have tabled my own move their vehicles from the streets of London to the amendment, which would get rid of it altogether, for streets of Castle Point and other areas outside London. much the same arguments as those I made about clause 9. I hope that in due course she will vote with us to remove In reality, we do not want high penalties for people who the clauses from the Bill. do things that cause modest inconvenience. A few people having a few cars on the road is not the end of the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend world. for that wise intervention. It is like squeezing a balloon. I doubt, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you have ever squeezed Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): I think my hon. a balloon, which is rather a childish habit, but if people Friend is misunderstanding the scale of the problem, do, they find that it goes in at the middle and a bit goes which is often not a modest inconvenience. I have up and down and out of the way—[Interruption.] My residents in my borough of Castle Point, which will not hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire says it is be covered by this legislation, who have been extremely like a water bed; I have never had the disadvantage—or inconvenienced by large numbers of cars parked on advantage or pleasure—of sleeping on a water bed, so I residential streets. That means that young mums with really cannot comment. lots of children and paraphernalia have to walk a To develop the point made by my hon. Friend the considerable distance to their homes and the elderly Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), if people shift lady of whom my hon. Friend spoke, who might wish to from the centre towards the suburbs and then further sell her car, is also an elderly lady who cannot get close out, it would not be too bad because at least business to her home for other cars and who is frightened by would be carried on. We rail against the European having to walk several streets in the dark at night Union for introducing more and more regulation against because she cannot park near her home. I do not think business. In speech after speech, particularly from the that that is a modest inconvenience. Government Benches, we say we want more business and we want to deregulate so that business can get on 7pm with what it is trying to do. But then what do we do? We Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend have this musty, hangover Bill that has been mouldering for an extremely helpful and important intervention, around in Parliament for several years, and because which suggests that the Bill should be a public one nobody is willing to stand up and say that it ought to be covering the whole country. If there is a widespread a dead duck, it keeps on going. I am sorry for the mixed problem in Castle Point, in North East Somerset and metaphors; the dead ducks would have had to be stuffed possibly in Scotland, Yorkshire and other parts—even to be in that musty and mouldering condition. 811 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 812 [Lords] [Lords] The Bill is an improper and bad way of legislating, decide whether something should happen, but people at and it is fundamentally against Conservative principles. a much lower level who require lower levels of proof; I am glad that there are Lib Dems in the Chamber, hence, reasonable cause. Is it really satisfactory that because I do not think the Bill upholds Lib Dem somebody who is not even a police officer and does not principles either. One of the great virtues of the historic need proof that a person is breaking the law can impose Liberal party, and one of the things that I have always penalties? That seems fundamentally unjust. thought made it so attractive and why I quite like the The Bill provides that if a person sells their car in the coalition, is that Liberals are genuinely liberal in parts; street in Westminster, it can be seized by an “authorised they believe that people should be relatively free and officer” who has “reasonable cause” to suspect that that regulated only when it is essential, rather than for the is what they are doing. My amendment would require convenience of the bureaucrat. In the order of priority, there to be proof of the activity and that the order the bureaucrat comes pretty low down. The measure should be issued by a magistrate. The magistrates court may be convenient for a few people who are strolling is the lowest court in the land, but at least the person along, but we have to weigh up the inconvenience caused would have the judgment of a court against them. One when parking spaces are taken, with the weight of the of our most ancient liberties is protected if the judgment law coming down on people and the risk of putting comes from a magistrate and is not given simply by an them out of business and conceivably out of work. authorised officer or a constable. It is easy to pass private Bills that include penalties Rebecca Harris: Is my hon. Friend aware of the and forfeitures that are not to the standard that would difficulties imposed on legitimate car traders, who have be required in a public Bill, because the standard of planning permission and pay business rates and rent for scrutiny is considerably lower. I realise we have many their parking lot? They are being undercut by people hours to discuss the Bill—we are on our third set of who park large numbers of cars on residential streets, three hours—but we do so with a relatively thinly without planning permission, and who sometimes evade attended Chamber and without great enthusiasm for paying tax or registering the sale. Does he think that is a looking at the nitty-gritty and the detail of the Bill. legitimate or fair way to proceed? Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I find my Jacob Rees-Mogg: I welcome my hon. Friend’s conversion hon. Friend’s argument persuasive, but does he agree to deregulation and low taxes. If the problem is that we that when we give authority to people, it changes the are encouraging the black market, we should free up the nature of the people to whom authority has been given? white market and reduce taxes and decrease regulation. Suddenly, perfectly ordinary, rational people become If something unfair is happening, the answer of the hugely important and full of the power that they have bureaucrat is always to regulate to make it fair, not to been given. They make the situation far worse by becoming deregulate to make it fair. Actually, we should tell dominant and forceful. legitimate traders, “Okay, you’re in competition with somebody who isn’t paying rates so let’s have lower rates Jacob Rees-Mogg: I have the greatest sympathy with because otherwise you’ll go out of business.” We should my hon. Friend’s view. It can often be a mistake to give look at whether planning permission is a proper way to an excessive amount of power in one particular area to regulate business, or whether there are already too relatively junior people. The authorised officer who is many burdens and costs on business. As so often, I am entitled to seize a vehicle is likely to be a relatively at one with my hon. Friend in feeling that the situation low-paid official who suddenly has the power to go offers a good argument for deregulation, cutting taxes round and confiscate a car. It might be quite a nice and getting at things from a positive angle, rather than car—possibly that Aston Martin DB5 that I was talking always looking at the negative and stopping people about a few moments ago, which somebody was trying doing things. How do we make the economy grow? We to sell on the internet for a good price. Then some free people from the shackles of the state, removing the teenaged council officer comes round and says, “I rather dead hand of regulation; not by putting more regulation like that.” Bang. He says, “I’ve seen that on the internet. on them. I’m going to issue a seizure notice and seize it.” One of my bugbears about a number of clauses is the That does not build in the proper protections that we level of proof required and the seniority of the person ought to have as British subjects. I know this is a who can enforce penalties, so I have tabled a number of long-winded speech and that many aspects of it are not amendments, in particular 42 and 43, to raise the standard entirely serious, but this is serious. The protection of of proof and of the person who will issue a certificate. our individual liberties ought to be the daily concern—the In subsection (7), amendment 42 would replace the hourly concern—of Members of Parliament because words “reasonable cause” with “proof that”. That would we are the people who can do something about that. It mean that we could be certain. is in the nature of Government to erode people’s liberties Right back to Magna Carta, we have had a high because liberties are inconvenient. Liberties make people standard of legal protection for people and their goods. object to things that Governments are doing. They stop People cannot have their goods taken from them without the great steamroller of Government coming down the a court order. It is a good historic principle of British tarmac. We as Members of Parliament are here to law and it is in the Magna Carta; no free man shall be constrain that great urge of Government—to bind them taken or his goods taken without the judgment of a down so that their infringements of liberty can occur court against him. As we know, the principle developed only when they are essential. with jury trial—although juries predate the Magna Carta I find it hard to believe that it is essential for the good —but in recent years we have been moving to an of this great nation that my teenaged authorised officer administrative system that allows not the courts to should be able to seize a motorcar because somebody 813 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 814 [Lords] [Lords] [Jacob Rees-Mogg] tatterdemalion council officer, to quote the word so beloved of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North. wanted to sell it on the internet, just because he has I come on to how the notice is determined. It is important reasonable suspicion and not with any proof or any that that should be done by the Secretary of State, by order of a court. I said that I disliked the whole clause somebody of standing and seniority, somebody who altogether, but if we are to have this rotten clause, let us can take the broader view into consideration when make it a little less rotten so that we can at least have determining how the notice ought to be drawn up, the protections for the individual. details that would be put in it and how precisely it is set out. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making a powerful Why do I choose the Secretary of State? Because the point. Does he agree that the concern of many is that Secretary of State, who may have faults—it has occurred that could lead to disputes between neighbours? Someone that Her Majesty’s advisers have had faults over many could maliciously advertise on the internet a car belonging centuries; indeed, this place has executed one or two of not to him, but to the neighbour with whom he has them over the years for having those terrible faults, but fallen out? The low-grade officer to whom my hon. they are accountable to Parliament, so that if they agree Friend refers could then use the powers under the Bill to to a notice that is unfair, they can be called to account seize that vehicle, thereby causing great embarrassment here by the constituency MP or by other MPs who and injustice. happen to take an interest in the rights of the individual. However, if the matter is left to the council, there are Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend’s imagination is some councils across the land that never change hands. so wonderful and glorious that it allows us to consider They remain Conservative or Labour for generation the possibility that a malevolent neighbour—you could after generation. They become laws unto themselves, not possibly have a malevolent neighbour, Mr Deputy able to treat their people as they wish, without the real Speaker, being so good natured yourself, but others weekly, monthly, yearly accountability that the Secretary may—could take a little photograph of the car. Do you of State might have. know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you can take photographs with your telephone nowadays? This is one of the great Even accepting that there have been Secretaries of lights of modern technology. State to whom one would not wish to give house room, the broad principle is that the Secretary of State, by People take photographs even of MPs going about virtue of his responsibilities in office and his accountability their daily business and put them on websites. They have not only to this House, but to the other House of not yet said that any MP is for sale, but they could take Parliament, and the fact that he holds his seals of office a photograph with their mobile telephone of a motorcar, by a commission from Her Majesty the Queen, and that put it on the internet, say it is for sale, and then ring up the Prime Minister can remove him from the holding of the council and say, “Look what my neighbour is doing” those seals of office by the wiggling of an eyebrow, if he and how outrageous that is. Around comes the authorised is so determined to wiggle his eyebrows, gives us a officer and practically drives off in a brand-new Bentley. degree of protection and that is why I and a number of That would be very tiresome for the person who had hon. Friends have tabled amendment 44 to replace the bought a brand-new Bentley, if anybody could afford words “the council” with the words “the Secretary of such things in these days of austerity. State”. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. He identifies a concern that we should all have. We in the House are all Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend will have seen in favour of brotherly love—I look at my right hon. amendment 67, which was tabled by our hon. Friend Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), proposing that as I say that, and I know how much he values brotherly the power be given to the Mayor of London. Would my love among all peoples and all nations—but I am sorry hon. Friend like to give the House the benefit of his to say that that is not how people live sometimes in the views about the merits of that proposal? real world. They sometimes have disputes. They sometimes go to law courts over a hedge that is 2 or 3 inches above where it should be. They sometimes go to law courts Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am very interested to think about over a perch of land, if that is still a unit that is allowed that proposal. The current Mayor of London is one of in these European days, and they argue through the the greatest men who has ever lived. That is without courts for years and years, decades and decades, and question. He is a genius par excellence. He is an exciting, cost themselves hundreds of thousands of pounds for a charismatic figure who bestrides the nation as a colossus piece of land that was worth £20 or £1,000 to start with. of political affairs. There is a “but” coming, as my hon. Friends probably realised, though it does not relate to We could in this way, as my hon. Friend the Member the former hon. Member for Henley, Mr Boris Johnson. for Christchurch said, have neighbourly disputes made It relates to who may come after him. worse. The injunction that we get from the Bible, “Love thy neighbour as thyself,” would fall on sandy ground, I go back to what I was saying about Lady Thatcher. as we found that all those cars were being purloined, in If it were possible to deify people, Mr Boris Johnson effect, by those authorised officers. would be next on the list, after the great lady, but he will not live for ever. He will not be Mayor for ever. Indeed, some people think—some people are heard to gossip 7.45 pm and to speculate—that the Mayor of London has higher My amendment 44 deals with the form of the notice ambitions and is looking to come back into alternative and the detail. We have got to the standard of proof: places to carry out his duties. Therefore the Mayor of there ought to be proof. We have got to the fact that the London refers, sadly, not to the individual who currently notice ought to be issued by a magistrate, not by some holds the office, but to the office itself, so I am not 815 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 816 [Lords] [Lords] entirely supportive of amendment 67 tabled by my hon. out in the Bill. It might not be the will of the House that Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). I feel I get rid of the entire clause, but at least the House will that we would be taking a risk, a gamble. understand why it is important to ensure that people We would, to use that term that is rarely heard, be have justice. The great call of this House over many playing with fire. We would be risking the happiness of centuries has been to provide people with the justice our prospective fellow countrymen, or of our constituents they need to protect them from an over-mighty state if we represent London constituencies, by putting in that wishes to interfere in their liberties. somebody who might be a left-wing firebrand—some The next set of amendments relate to clause 14. I do dangerous socialist figure who wanted only to penalise not wish to sound like a broken record or for people to motorcar owners—as the Mayor of London. We might— say, “Turn to the flipside”, or whatever it is they say heaven help us—end up with a Green Mayor of London. when they want the tone to change, but I believe that The mind boggles at the thought of what a Green clause 14 ought to go in its entirety, and that is what Mayor might do—a red one would be bad enough. amendment 46, which I and a number of hon. Friends Therefore, I think that it is safer to leave the power with have tabled, would do. Once again, we are dealing with the Secretary of State, as my amendment proposes. the power to take people’s goods without the judgment Mr Deputy Speaker, you might expect me to prefer of a court, and that cannot conceivably be right, just or my own amendment to another Member’s, however in line with our understanding of the historic liberties wise and good they are, but I fear that we might not of the individual, which should be protected. always have the Mayor of London that we would want, Clause 14 applies to the city of Westminster; it is not particularly through a long parliamentary Session. a general clause. It states: Sometimes the electors become bored with the party in “An authorised officer of the Council or a constable may in the power, and they might elect someone else to the mayoralty Borough seize any receptacle or equipment (other than a motor midway through the Session just to show the governing vehicle) which… is in a street”. party that they can do so. Of course, we are not worried We could have someone wandering along the street who about that happening this time. The great Boris Johnson can seize a receptacle without so much as a “by your is so far ahead, by every measure that humanity can leave”, an order of a court or, at this stage, any proof discover, that it is extremely unlikely that we will find that something is going on. The clause continues that some red, green or—I will whisper this very quietly—yellow the authorised officer may do this if he has “reasonable candidate getting close to the mayoralty. If they did, cause to suspect” that the receptacle is intended to be however, we might find that the protection that I am used in connection with unlicensed street trading. Who trying to put in the Bill was not there. knows what could happen? Someone could be pushing Some very fine people have been, and are, Secretaries a pram along the street and taking goods home in it of State. I am thinking in particular of the Department while their baby was at nursery school, and the pram that is relevant to this debate, which has one of the and goods could be seized because it might look as finest Secretaries of State in Her Majesty’s Government, though they could be used for trading. Indeed, people a man who is hugely respected by everyone, and not might start trading their goods in prams because that only in the Conservative party, but in all parties up and might be a way of getting around the rules. The provision down the country, and probably further afield, but as is so broad that all that it requires is for the officer to they do not have votes in British general elections we have “reasonable cause to suspect” that the receptacle is are not too worried about them for the purposes of this intended to be used in connection with unlicensed street debate. trading. What if someone had been shopping and perhaps Amendment 45, which stands in my name and those bought a few saucepans and a barbecue set and was of my hon. Friends, seeks to ameliorate the pains and wheeling it home? Would a council officer suddenly penalties of the Bill by giving people a chance to get pounce on them and say, “I’d rather like that for my things right and not to be penalised too quickly. It own home. I think I’ll take it, thank you so much, proposes that they should have 28 days, rather than 14, because you look like you’re about to do a little unlicensed to abide by the notice that has been issued under the street trading.” order of the Secretary of State, rather than the council, It comes back to this desperate opposition to free if my amendment 44 is accepted, or under the order of trade, free markets and enterprise and a belief that the Mayor of London if the amendment tabled by my regulating everything will create a perfect world. I am hon. Friend the Member for Shipley is accepted. sorry to disappoint you, Mr Deputy Speaker, but however It looks as though the cost of a Royal Mail second-class much we regulate, we will not create a perfect world. It stamp is about to go up to 55p. Councils are rather simply will not happen, even in the great, noble and mean when sending such notices out and are unlikely to wondrous city of Westminster. use the recorded delivery service. E-mail is no good if What are my various proposals? My first proposal is the council does not have the individual’s e-mail address, to get rid of the whole beastly clause. I understand that and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency asks only people do not like the smell of onions outside their for a postal address, not an e-mail address, when people front door when people are trading, and I know that register with it, so these things have to go through the one of the front doors in question is that of Buckingham post. It seems to me that, considering the standard of palace, a front door that I think should be particularly the postal service sometimes, particularly around Christmas, protected from the smell of onions when people are 14 days is far too short. People might find that they doing a bit of street trading. Perhaps even this place have been penalised extremely unfairly. should be protected in that way, although I do not think I reiterate that everything I am trying to do with this that it would do MPs any harm to walk past the smell of batch of amendments, as with others, is alleviate the onions on their way to work in the mornings. I appreciate penalties, pains, powers and restrictions of freedom set that that is unpleasant. I also understand that criminal 817 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 818 [Lords] [Lords] [Jacob Rees-Mogg] should be up to him, on His Grace’s private property, to decide whether to do a bit of hawking, instead of being gangs might be involved but, if they are, they should be caught by this Bill. I therefore thought that “public” got for serious criminal crime—that is a bit of a tautology, would just help a little to clarify exactly what we are even when speaking so briefly—rather than for an invented trying to cover. Where is that place with all the embassies? crime of just looking as though one might want to sell It is actually in Kensington and Chelsea, so it does not something in the street. really apply, but there are private streets in Westminster, What about Big Issue sellers? Will their copies of the and if people who own them really do wish to sell fried Big Issue be confiscated because they might be doing a onions they should be at liberty to do so, although I bit of unlicensed street trading? Some of them of course should not claim that the right to sell onions is a great, have licences. I hope that all the people who give out the historic British liberty. Evening Standard have licences—they can hardly sell it, Amendment 49 is again a proposal to move to more now that they give it out for free. This is just another “proof”. On amendment 60, I was very concerned that attack on trade, and we need trade. We need people to these authorised officers would not have any uniform, be in employment and to work and we need the economy and that was how we got on to tatterdemalions before to boom. We will never get the boom back into Britain and why I made the point that we really ought to without some street trading or if we have some terrible consider the dress of these people so that everybody and draconian regulations. I do not think that Draco would know exactly what they ought to look like and would ever have thought up such regulations—I am not that they were proper representatives. I had an idea that sure that there was a lot of street trading in Athens the dress could be drawn up for councils by somebody when he was around, but there might have been for all I like the College of Arms, and I thought that in Westminster know. They are draconian regulations that seek to it would be rather splendid if the attendants had the discourage trade and penalise the entrepreneur and crest of Westminster. I am sure that all Members would those who are trying to do their bit for society, rather like to know what it is: than those who want something for nothing. “On a Wreath Or and Azure a Portcullis Sable studied and As with clause 10, I have looked at clause 14 in detail chained Or between on the dexter side a united Rose, the flower and thought that, although it is a nasty and pernicious Argent upon Gules and on the sinister side a Lily both stalked clause—one might say that it is so nasty that it smells of leaved and erect proper.” rancid onions—if we are not to get rid of it in its I think it would be rather smart if there were a entirely, let us at least try to ameliorate some of its faults “Lily both stalked leaved and erect proper” and see what we can do to make it more reasonable and on the uniforms of these council officials. in line with our great traditions. Therefore, I have made certain suggestions. Amendment 47 would leave out Glyn Davies: This is perhaps one area—the uniform— “an authorised officer”and replace it with “a magistrate”. where I feel rather suspicious of what we are talking The magistracy really is the foundation of our courts about. In my experience we should be careful, because system. It has a wonderful history and tradition. The whenever we put a uniform on somebody we immediately lay magistracy has been particularly important in protecting enhance their own self-importance. My previous our freedoms and bringing people from the community intervention was about junior officers becoming hugely with a degree of wisdom and understanding of their important when given authority, and that importance local area to enforce the law there. The stipendiary would be multiplied if we gave them a uniform. magistracy, now called district judges, has formalised that, and in an urban setting it would more usually be a Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes a good stipendiary magistrate who would have that responsibility, point, as always, and it is one of those occasions when but Magna Carta still ought to count. one needs balance: one needs the Lib-Dem approach to In these few words that is the third time I have it—neither one thing nor the other, but something in mentioned Magna Carta—that was the fourth—but it between. One needs to have sufficient respectability of is very important, because that document is what set us the person so that people know that it is an officer with on the path to freedom, rights of property and the rule some authority, but equally one needs to be in a position of law, which has led to the prosperity not just of this where the officer does not let that authority go to their nation but of the United States and of Commonwealth head by being so overburdened with gold braid and nations that have had the benefit of that great history pride that they feel they are enormously powerful and and tradition. must intervene. I should not give them one of those spiked helmets that one sees in old first world war films For some reason, and I think it is to do with the with the Prussian officers marching out; that might give European Communities Act and the administrative the wrong impression. I suggested earlier that a bowler approach taken across the Channel, in recent years we hat might be suitable, and that may be the right way. have removed the protection of the court from our subjects, and that is wrong. If we can put it back, we Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Does ought to put it back. the hon. Gentleman agree that there is no link between the level of self-importance that someone feels and 8pm whether they have a uniform or not? I have tabled various other amendments. Amendment 47 would insert “A magistrate”, and amendment 48 would Jacob Rees-Mogg: Some people may have been thinking insert a “public” street. One may think that there are from my speech that, despite not being in a uniform, I not many private streets in Westminster, but there are have an undue level of self-importance, so my hon. one or two, and if the Duke of Westminster, who owns Friend’s point is probably one that Members, as much most of them, really wishes to become a hawker, it as others, should bear in mind. 819 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 820 [Lords] [Lords] If we develop the uniform theme and decide that it although he is actually under the age of criminal gives such officials too much power, we might decide responsibility so he cannot be arrested anyway. He that they should just have the badge of Westminster on cannot even be got by one of these council officers, their ordinary clothes, so that at least one would knew because he has not worked out how to sell a car on the who they were. I thought that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, internet, although if he sold mine I would not be unduly would be dying to know what the badge is: delighted. “A Portcullis chained and ensigned of a Mural Crown between I have proposed adding “in uniform”, and if we look on the dexter side a united Rose and on the sinister side a Lily”— at some of the other parts of clauses 14 and 15, we find once again stalked, but— that for consistency I have proposed making sure that “both stalked and leaved all Or,” we have “magistrates” as well. I do not wish to repeat which is exactly the ticket for issuing tickets, so to myself unduly, but the point is one worth making, and I speak. have always thought, “If it is a good point, make it again and again and perhaps one day somebody will Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that one listen,” because we need orders from magistrates to beneficial side effect of his suggestion is that replicas of ensure that the measure is proper, valid, just, right and such badges, uniforms or pieces of insignia could be observes—respects—the historic rights that we have made available for tourists and sold by street traders to had for so many centuries. tourists? I want to move on at quite some speed, because there are any number of people who are looking forward to Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is an idea of the most sumptuous speaking on this great subject and have tabled gloriousness. It would be a fine way of raising money amendments—many more than I have. Indeed, the Bill’s and reducing the council tax for residents if we could sponsor has proposed some of his own amendments, get Westminster city council into a bit of unlicensed which people will want to debate at considerable length, street trading on the side, and of course its officers so I turn to amendments 56 and 57 to clause 16. Earlier would not penalise it because it would be effectively in the clause I suggest that an object’s disposal be above the law. subject to an order by “A magistrate”, but these proposed Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I am listening to changes would just tie down the councils on costs, my hon. Friend’s speech with great interest, but would amending clause 16(3) so that it stated that the council not the advent of selling such badges—badges of honour, may recover its “reasonable” costs, rather than any perhaps—mean that unscrupulous individuals might costs. get hold of replicas and do to other members of the When councils take enforcement action, they should community precisely what he has been describing? not do so as a profit centre. Although, strictly speaking, they would not be allowed to do so, it is amazing how Jacob Rees-Mogg: It was Winston Churchill who people wangle their way around the rules. We know that said that he had often had to eat his words and had from parking tickets, which started as a means of stopping found it a very good diet. I am very much in the same congestion. Suddenly, we discover that councils are position now: I am dutifully eating my words in relation using them to build up their bank reserves because they to the earlier answer I gave, because that is exactly the are not getting the money that they want from other problem that we might have. People might get those sources in this age of austerity, such as from central badges, which I described earlier, and of which I am Government. A little bit extra from parking fines is very sure the House would like to be reminded: helpful. That is particularly iniquitous. Let us therefore “A Portcullis chained and ensigned of a Mural Crown between put in the word “reasonable” and tie the councils down. on the dexter side a united Rose and on the sinister side a Lily I cannot really see why they would object, if they have both stalked and leaved all Or.” no sinister motive. I am sure that they have no sinister But perhaps instead of having them “all Or” we should motive because otherwise we would have spotted it have them “all Argent”. Then we would know that they earlier and thrown out the Bill on Second Reading. were not the real thing, and it would allow us to sell Clause 16 should therefore read “reasonable costs”. them and raise a bit of money without allowing anybody When a seizure takes place and what is seized is sold, to go around impersonating one of those officers. My under amendment 57 any excess money would go back hon. Friend’s point is of serious importance: one would to the person and the fine would not exceed the value of have to have a uniform that could not be easily replicated, what has been confiscated. Again, it is unfair to penalise but if one could make a little money on the side by people twice for the same thing: once for a minor selling something similar that would be beneficial. offence is more than enough, and twice—to go on and One thinks of cricket teams that do so. Somerset on and repeat it again and again—seems to me to be county cricket club sells its shirts, which are extraordinarily fundamentally unfair. We should therefore put in some popular. I do not wear them myself, but with younger limits. people they are very popular and a good way of raising The whole thread of my amendments is to protect the money and keeping ticket prices down, so perhaps one legitimate individual, and perhaps even the slightly would get some benefit from that, as tourists came spivvy individual who wanders between the right and along and decided to buy imitations rather than the real the wrong side of the law. When he is on the right side of thing. the law, he has rights too. Just because somebody has One can buy imitation policeman’s helmets, which been a bit spivvy once does not mean that all his rights have plastic insignia on them and little plastic silver should be suspended, destroyed, eroded or removed. things on top, and that does not confuse too many Even that fellow Mr Qatada was let out of prison when people. My four-year-old enjoys wearing one, and he there was no reasonable prospect of deporting him. has never been arrested for impersonating an officer, Even the nastiest people have some rights. People who 821 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 822 [Lords] [Lords] [Jacob Rees-Mogg] That leaves me with my final amendment. Amendment 58 relates to clause 19 on the proof of resolution, which have been selling a few things on an illegal stall must is outrageous. The whole thing is outrageous, but surely be protected, if they are having their livelihood amendment 58 would put right a particular outrage. All taken away, from having their utensils taken away and the cards are stacked in favour of the bureaucrat. If the an unreasonable fine served upon them as well. It is bureaucrat gets something wrong, he gets off scot free. important to maintain the great, historic liberties. If the bureaucrat does not send something out, it is That brings me to clause 18. I really will be coming to presumed that he has sent it out. However, if poor an end quite soon. This is not my proposal, but it is in Mr Jones who is selling his car on the high street gets a this group and I think that it is particularly sensible. ticket, the car is taken off him by an authorised officer Amendment 35 suggests getting rid of clause 18 altogether. without the approval of a magistrate and without anything One might say that we should get rid of the whole Bill, being proved. This law, this rotten law, this dreadful, but that may come a little later, on Third Reading. mean little Bill for some of the London boroughs, is an Clause 18 will apply a fine at level 3 for people who obstruct attack on freedom that builds up the bureaucrat and one of the council officers. The reason that I have taken enables him to do all sorts of things without any protection objection to that, do take objection to it and will continue for the individual. The bureaucrat can take one’s car, to take objection to it is that one does not know who the seize one’s goods, sell one’s goods and send one a notice officer is. One cannot be certain that somebody genuinely with only 14 days to do anything about it. If that is an officer of the council. One may be fooled. As a bureaucrat makes a bureaucratic mistake, he is scot free general principle, the law must be clear. and it is assumed that he got everything right, because If some foolish person steals a policeman’s helmet on he is such a wonderful and clever bureaucrat. boat race night, as we all know Bertie Wooster did, he This party came into government to protect the freedoms knows that when he is brought up before the beak, he is of the British subject. That was in our manifesto. The being charged fairly and justly. If instead of pinching a Lib Dems have been just as sound on the freedoms of policeman’s helmet, Bertie Wooster had met one of the British subject since the Liberal party was founded. these authorised officers, who said that he thought his What on earth are we doing passing these nasty little Widgeon Seven was for sale on the internet, Mr Wooster clauses into law? They deal with a problem that is of might have said, “Who are you? How I do know that insufficient scale to warrant this loading of the dice in you have any authority to tell me not to sell my Widgeon favour of the state to oppress and do down the freedom- Seven on the internet?” For the sake of clarity, the loving Briton. internet was not invented when Mr Bertie Wooster was driving the Widgeon Seven, which was some decades Mr Chope: I first congratulate my hon. Friend the ago. However, I do not think that that invalidates the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) argument. It is an example of what could happen. It on another brilliant contribution to this debate. I particularly might not be Mr Wooster with a Widgeon Seven; it might enjoyed his peroration, which was a paean of praise for be any one of our constituents who happens to be in liberty. It is appropriate that the people who support London with a Ford or Renault, if people buy French liberty are well represented in the Chamber tonight, cars. They simply might not know whether the person whereas those who have always been in favour of restricting who tries to give them a ticket is an authorised officer. liberty are not well represented. Any true-born English person, and probably any As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, this group of Welsh person or Scots person, would be very affronted amendments was first debated on the occasion of our if some busybody came up to them saying, “I’m giving Prime Minister’s visit to the Parliamentary Assembly of you a fine,” unless they could be certain who that the Council of Europe. It was the first time that a Prime person really was and that they had a legitimate authority. Minister had visited the Parliamentary Assembly for This proposal is even more pernicious because people some 30 years. As a member of the Parliamentary coming to London will not know that rules in London Assembly, I was in Strasbourg rather than here. That is are different to those where they come from. My why I was unable to introduce the group of amendments constituents who come to London will find these peculiar and to move amendment 22. My hon. Friend the Member officers bouncing out at them from around corners for North East Somerset has done so with tremendous saying, “We’re giving you a fine.” My constituents will expertise. He has kept his remarks succinct and to the definitely take no notice of that. They will say, “I don’t point, and has given us an example of how we should give a fig for your fine.” They will then be done under deal with such matters in this Chamber. clause 18 and receive a fine not exceeding level 3 for saying that they do not give a fig for a fine. I think that a Amendment 22 goes to the root of the Bill and is man from Somerset should be allowed to say that to likely to be the one in this group upon which we will somebody unless he knows clearly that that person is have a Division, but I am delighted that my hon. Friend who he pretends to be and has a uniform to prove it. the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) has accepted amendment 26, and I hope that in 8.15 pm due course I will have the chance to move it formally We have discussed what the uniforms should be and and that the House will support it. what coats of arms could be on them. It happens that Amendment 22 suggests leaving out clause 9, entitled there are coats of arms for every borough of London, “Street trading: vehicles and the internet”. The way in so they could each have their own uniform. Earlier, we which the promoters of the Bill have described the talked only about Westminster. That is why I did not purpose of the clause is slightly disingenuous, because regale the House with the arms of all the boroughs of they state that it London. I thought it would be interesting to do so and I “would amend the street trading provisions of the London Local may be able to do so on another occasion. Authorities Act 1990 so as to clarify that vehicles which are for 823 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 824 [Lords] [Lords] sale in the course of a business on the internet and which are in the course of a business, or will there need to be parked on the street fall within the licensing regime.” evidence that he has sold other vehicles on the internet, That implies that they believe such vehicles may already or that the internet site or advertisement used contains be covered by that Act. Why do they not have the more than one vehicle registered in his name? courage of their convictions and say that the purpose of Nor do we know whether the person exposing a the clause is to extend the current provisions to bring motor vehicle for sale on the internet will have to be its the sale of vehicles on the internet in the course of owner. Many people have agents acting on their behalf business within the ambit of that Act? They say that it who sell things without ownership having passed to “would not apply to residents or other individuals selling their them. If a sale is made, a commission payment may be own vehicle on an occasional basis.” due to them. We do not know whether it is intended that We must be grateful for small mercies such as that and the clause will apply to anybody whose vehicle is advertised the fact that amendment 26 is to be incorporated into whether or not they are selling it in the course of a clause 10, so that it will carry a similar caveat. business. For example, if I were to use an intermediary to advertise my vehicle on the internet on my behalf, I have always believed that we need to examine carefully although I would be exposing it for sale as a private the text of Bills such as this, to ensure that they have individual, the intermediary would be doing so as a apparent clarity. We are discussing the creation of new business proposition. Would that mean that my private offences, and if people are to be charged with those sale would contradict the provisions of clause 9? It is offences, or find themselves losing their trade and livelihood disingenuous in the extreme for the promoters to say or being otherwise punished, it is vital that they should that it is a clause of clarification, because it significantly know exactly where they stand. The exchange between extends the restrictions upon street trading by widening my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset enormously the definition of street trading in London. and my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) illustrated vividly the misunderstandings that A point that has already been made in the debate, but can arise when there is ambiguous wording. Clause 9 is worth making again, is that we are talking about does not state where the street in question has to be. It London local authorities. If there is a real problem such states that the motor vehicle has to be as my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point described, it should surely be dealt with in a public Bill rather than “kept on a street during the period when it is so exposed or offered for sale”. in piecemeal, incremental legislation such as the Bill. Clause 9 relates specifically to the whole of London; There is ambiguity about the location at which an clauses 10, 11 and 12 relate specifically to the City of offence will be committed. Will it be where the vehicle is Westminster; and clauses 13, 14, 15 and 16 relate to kept or where the owner resides? That is a significant Camden. That follows a pattern that we have seen with question, because if there is a problem in Castle Point—I a number of private Bills whereby the City of Westminster accept what my hon. Friend said about that—it will goes ahead first, and then the legislation that they get inevitably be made worse if we interpret clause 9 as through is applied for by the London local authorities prohibiting people who are resident in London from collectively, or perhaps by the London borough of keeping their cars on a street in London when they are Camden or another London authority—the idea being, exposed or offered for sale on the internet. I think, that nobody will take much notice if just one For how long must a vehicle be kept on a street? The borough is doing it. Then the precedent is set and other clause states that it must be boroughs follow suit, and before we know it we have a “during the period when it is so exposed or offered for sale.” whole series of pieces of private legislation that come together and act significantly to restrict the liberties of As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset the individual. said, it is possible to put something on the internet and leave it there for some time. Sometimes, one looks at a Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): When I property on the internet and says, “Gosh, that’s a really have had responsibility, I have always found that if one well priced property”, but when one looks at it in more tries something out and it works, other people want to detail, one finds that it was actually being offered at that copy it. Local authorities will need to promote their price about five years ago and has long since been either own legislation in order to have the same powers as sold or withdrawn from the market. Things can be those in places where it has worked elsewhere. Surely advertised for sale on the internet without anybody the critical thing is whether the powers have had a being sure whether that exposure or offer for sale is beneficial effect on the public. current and up to date. The expression 8.30 pm “exposed or offered for sale” Mr Chope: That is a very potent intervention because is used in the Bill. What is the difference between being it covers several different issues. My hon. Friend is exposed for sale and offered for sale on the internet? I basically saying that it should be open to an individual hope that when my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley local authority to be able to carry out an experiment. I and Golders Green responds to the debate he will be do not think that anybody disputes the advantages that able to explain why it was thought necessary to include certain experiments can have, but there is no reason why both those expressions. an experiment cannot be contained in a public Bill or A lot of people buy and sell vehicles, and it is hard to have a sunset clause. I am not sure that he has dealt with know when they cross the dividing line between a purely the concerns that we have been expressing. private sale and a sale in the course of a business. As for whether the Bill is in the public interest, it is How will that be defined and policed? If a person sells obviously important that any legislation that goes on to one vehicle on the internet, will that mean he is doing so the statute book is in the public interest, but what do we 825 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 826 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr Chope] differently. Is it not extraordinary that a Bill which, we are told, is so essential to the well-being of the people of mean by “public”? A private Bill operates differently as London has received no support from large numbers of between one part of the country and another. My hon. London Members? I would expect them to be here in Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green droves, intervening and saying how antisocial I am. may say that the Bill is arguably in the interests of the public in London, but is it also in the interests of the Jacob Rees-Mogg: Could one put an alternative gloss public in boroughs adjacent to London that will not be on the lack of attendance of London Members—that covered by it and where there may well be a spill-over they are embarrassed by this nasty little Bill, and have effect that is adverse to their interests? therefore stayed away, preferring to keep quiet? Sir Peter Bottomley: At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, is my hon. Friend arguing that we should not Mr Chope: That is the more proper interpretation of allow local authorities to apply for powers to try something the fact that there are no London Members in the out, or that because it might be suitable for one local Chamber with the exception of my hon. Friends the authority, every local authority should have the same Members for Finchley and Golders Green and for powers at the same time? One has to decide whether one Harrow East (Bob Blackman). I congratulate the latter is a conservative or a socialist, and I think that my hon. on his assiduous attendance in such debates and on Friend is trespassing slightly from our side of the House. receiving the accolade of sponsoring subsequent private Bills on behalf of London local authorities. I understand Mr Chope: If my hon. Friend’s intention is to provoke he will take over from my hon. Friend the Member for me by describing me as a socialist, he has certainly Finchley and Golders Green the onerous responsibility succeeded. I have always been a great believer in enabling of sponsoring London local authority private Bills because legislation. There is nothing to prevent the Government the latter has decided that one is enough. With the from introducing a public Bill that enables local authorities exception of my two enthusiastic hon. Friends there is a to carry out an experiment if they want to, and then, if conspicuous absence of London Members in the debate. they do not like what they are doing, to amend the laws Clause 9 is seriously flawed and ill-conceived. In the locally. A public Bill with enabling powers is a much end, it will result in people who are innocently trying to better way of meeting my hon. Friend’s concerns. sell their motor vehicles to get the maximum benefit will find themselves on the wrong side of some officious Sir Peter Bottomley indicated assent. council officer. They will then find that their vehicle is seized or suffer another penalty. If clause 9 is passed Mr Chope: I note from my hon. Friend’s gestures that and gets on to the statute book, the real villains of he accepts that that would be a better way forward. I whom we have heard—those who park large numbers hope that the Minister will also be able to endorse that of cars on the highway, perhaps with labels in them line of argument when he expresses his views about why saying that they are for sale on the internet—will escape local authorities should not be encouraged to bring scot-free. The innocent bystanders, so to speak, will forward these private Bills, which seem to be taking up find themselves suffering penalties as a result. an inordinate amount of debating time in the House. In practice, if the local authority wants to restrict parking on the highway, it can introduce parking Sir Peter Bottomley: I think that it would be an controls—it has the power to do so. Why should not objective remark to say that the amount of time taken licensed vehicles, as they must be, be parked in a lawful up is determined by those who speak, not by the amount place on the high street or the public highway? Does the of legislation. fact that they have a label inside saying that they are for sale cause any offence? I suspect it does not— Mr Chope: Again, I differ with my hon. Friend. It is a function of the quality of the legislation. A good Bill Chris Williamson: It does. that is well drafted and commands popular support will go through very quickly, as we saw earlier in this Session with the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan Lord). He position that it does cause offence. If he thinks so, why hardly had a chance to get a word in edgeways on his does he not get something done about it in his local own Bill—his maiden Bill—because it sped through all authority area? Why does he not campaign for a public its stages, and that is because it was well-drafted, pertinent Bill to deal with that? I find the Opposition spokesman’s and met a need. support for this partisan legislation quite bizarre. He seems to think that his local authority suffers similar Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): The hon. problems to London local authorities, yet he is doing Gentleman talks about popular support. Is it not significant nothing about it at the same time as imposing upon the that not one single Member of Parliament from London people of London new burdens and responsibilities. I who will be affected by this Bill has spoken in opposition hope in due course we will hear more from the hon. to it? Does not that suggest that there is popular support Gentleman and that he will expand on his views. for it? Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend will appreciate that Mr Chope: I see that the hon. Gentleman and the the streets of London are relatively congested with hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) are parking. One frequent complaint from residents is that the only two representatives on the Opposition Benches. the places where they can legitimately park are taken up I interpret the lack of attendance from London Members by people who are running a business by putting their 827 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 828 [Lords] [Lords] cars for sale on the street, taking up the very parking Mr Chope: My hon. Friend raises an interesting places that residents could occupy. Does he not accept point. Obviously, the Bill started off four or five years that that is one of the purposes of the Bill? ago, long before anybody dreamt that a general power of competence would be given to local authorities under a major Act of Parliament. In the days when I was a Mr Chope: If it is a residents’ parking place, to local government Minister, central Government was occupy it lawfully there has to be a residents’ parking absolutely dead against giving local authorities a general permit. The local authority issues such permits, and power of competence. Local authorities have won that there are ways of dealing with the abuse of those argument, and now it is open to them, using their regulations short of doing what is in the Bill. imagination, to see to what ends they can use that general power. In my view, though, it is much better to Sir Peter Bottomley: I think that my hon. Friend has use it to introduce arrangements suited to a particular taken our hon. Friend’s words too precisely. If these are locality where the people introducing the arrangements places where residents park, rather than places restricted will be accountable, at the ballot box, to the electorate, to residents parking, and if, in effect, it becomes a street than to introduce proposals in the way that the Bill’s market for cars, why should there not be the same promoters are seeking to do. regulations as for street markets of stalls? Will he address his mind to that issue? A local authority does not 8.45 pm tolerate street markets without local byelaws. The same Mr Nuttall: On residents’ parking, is it not the case thing applies to the sale of cars in places where residents that, whether or not a car is being offered for sale, it will park. still be taking up space on a road? Whether or not it has a little sign in the back window, all that would happen is Mr Chope: I understand the distinction between the that it would be displaced somewhere else; therefore, the points made by my two hon. Friends. Surely the solution problem that our hon. Friends are describing is really to the problem raised by my hon. Friend the Member one of lack of space in total. for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) is for the local authority to create a residents’ parking regime on the Mr Chope: Either that or there are too many cars—that road that is being used, to the annoyance of local might be another interpretation. Or, there are too many residents, by a lot of vehicles not based in that area. people—I should perhaps plead guilty to this myself—who aspire to sort out the car that is firing on only two Even in my constituency, which is semi-rural, people cylinders, but in the meantime they get another car and are taking literally the idea that the Government are keep the car that is not working very well, thinking that encouraging them to park and ride. They think that at some stage it will be useful to them, so they end up they can park on any piece of highway, even if it causes with more cars than they really need. The Government lots of problems. I have an issue involving a residential are dealing with that problem by increasing car tax well school for disabled children where the staff can no beyond the rate of inflation. longer park on the highway by the school because people commuting to London are parking there earlier However, I return to the point that if there is a in the morning—about 7 o’clock—and teaming up for scarcity of on-road parking space, that is for the local lifts to places such as Southampton Parkway station. authority to deal with. If somebody has a lot of cars on That is creating a problem. a space, they can remain there provided they are licensed. However, if the local authority introduces a rule saying The solution is not, however, for East Dorset district that a resident can have only one parking permit, for council to promote a private Bill; the solution is for it to example—I am sure that is the situation in quite a lot of use the powers it already has to regulate parking in that London boroughs, and certainly Lambeth, which I area. From my experience as a London borough councillor, know for these purposes—that means that each resident I would suggest that where a lot of people are parking in a household can have only one car with a residents’ in residential streets close to rail termini or underground parking permit. Therefore, introducing a residential stations, the solution is for the local authority to introduce control zone will sort out the problem of vehicles being a parking restriction between, say, 8 am and 10 am, sold on the internet for street trading purposes. making it impossible for a commuter to park in that space over the period and leaving it available for longer-term Sir Peter Bottomley: In the last 30 minutes I have residents or people who wish to use the space for failed to distinguish whether my hon. Friend, in his legitimate residential purposes. clever way, is saying that he is against local authorities If there is a mischief here, it applies not just to parts having the powers in question or whether he thinks that of London but right across the country, and it can be they should not have them under this Bill. Could he resolved by local authorities exercising their powers please clear up the confusion? sensibly under the principle of localism without having to introduce heavy-handed private legislation. Mr Chope: I am sorry that there is any confusion, but I am happy to try to clear it up. I am speaking to the proposals in this Bill that local authorities should have Bob Blackman: Is my hon. Friend now advancing the the powers, because I am against cluttering up the view that in the light of the Localism Act 2011, which statute book with unnecessary legislation, particularly the House wisely passed and which gives local authorities that which purports to be necessary to address a particular a general power of competence, none of the Bill is mischief, when that mischief can be addressed in another applicable and every council in London can do all this way, without using public or private legislation. In without reference to the law because it has a general answer to my hon. Friend’s point, my objection is to power of competence? Is that his stance? this particular Bill and the way it is being used to try 829 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 830 [Lords] [Lords] [Mr Chope] Mr Chope: I understand the scenario that my hon. Friend is describing, but could not that problem be to deal with a mischief that, if there be that mischief, resolved by introducing a residents’ parking regime, could be dealt with another way, without the use of such as the one that already exists in Westminster, under these draconian powers. which no resident may have more than one parking permit? That mischief would not exist under such a Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think my hon. Friend’s point is regime. one of absolute clarity, justness and truth. It seems to Sir Peter Bottomley: I hesitate to suggest a practical me that clause 10, which applies to Westminster city answer to the problem, but there are plenty of people council, stops people doing something that they cannot living in Westminster who like to park on the single do anyway, because as far as I am aware, there is not a yellow lines after 6.30 and at weekends, and it is also yard of parking space in Westminster city council that possible for their friends and family members to do so. is not regulated by the council, either through residents’ If they were to discover that some business was taking parking, a meter, or a single or even double yellow line. up all that parking space, and not paying rates as most Therefore, this is just a ridiculous piece of legislation to conventional sellers of cars do, they would want that introduce a nasty set of penalties, quite unnecessarily, problem to be solved. When my hon. Friend the Member when councils can ensure that there is no problem for Christchurch (Mr Chope) was a distinguished local through their existing powers. councillor in London, he and his council occasionally used the kind of legislation that is being proposed here Mr Chope: That is probably one of the most compelling to the great advantage of his local residents, and I points made in this evening’s debate. My hon. Friend, suspect that those who are promoting this Bill would with his knowledge of the city of Westminster, says that like it to allow them to do the same. people are not able to do the mischief that clause 10 seeks to address, so what is the point of it? I hope that Mr Chope: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the our hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders latter part of his intervention. I like to think that, when Green will be able to get some advice as to why it is I was the leader of Wandsworth council, we did not necessary at all. Perhaps the problem arises because waste a lot of money on promoting private Bills to try some residents are a bit snooty and worry that, when to oppress our residents. Our policy was very much the visitors come for dinner, they might see a car parked in reverse of that. If Westminster can deal with this problem, the street with a sign in it saying that it is for sale and I do not see why other councils cannot do so. My hon. that more information is available on the internet. Perhaps Friend talks about there being a problem after hours, they think that that would lower the tone of the but what would happen to the cars during the day? neighbourhood. Even in circumstances in which residents Would they suddenly appear after hours? were limited to one parking permit, they could still display such a label inside their vehicle, which could, in Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend the Member for the eyes of some people, lower the tone of the Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has conjured up a neighbourhood. I do not know whether that is the marvellous picture of some incredibly efficient businesses justification for the proposal. We could debate whether that race along and park their cars on the single yellow it was a sensible reason for introducing this kind of lines at 6.30 every evening and race them off again at legislation, and for introducing clause 10 in particular, 8.30 every morning. Whither they would go, heaven but I do not think that it is sufficient justification. only knows. That would hardly be practical, and it would not represent a real risk to residents. Amendments have been made to the Bill, and some clauses have been completely cut out of it. That shows Mr Chope: That is absolutely right. that, in its original conception, it was put forward It is sometimes difficult to give personal examples, without proper forethought by a lot of rather ambitious but I shall give the House an example involving my officials. No doubt the ratepayers of those local authorities daughter. Last autumn, she was in the market for her have paid dearly for the services of the parliamentary first car, and she saw one advertised on the internet, on agents and other advisers involved. As with so many Auto Trader. I went with her—apparently, my cheque private Bills, however, it would have been better if those book was needed—to view this vehicle and we went to people had spent more time thinking about what they what appeared to be a private house, although I suspect really wanted to put into it and about whether it was it was being used for a business. really necessary, before launching it for our consideration The vehicle was parked on the street outside. It was a in the House. car advertised on the internet, parked on a residential road and, as far as I could make out, it was not causing Bob Blackman: Some vehicles that are being sold on any problems. If this had taken place inside the London the street have signs in their window saying that they are area, the person trying to sell that car would have been for sale at a given price, and that is quite clear. One of found guilty of street trading under the terms of the the problems associated with selling motor vehicles on provisions. For the life of me, I cannot see what was the street, however, is that some unscrupulous individuals wrong with advertising that car on the Auto Trader site do not put such signs into the windows of the cars; they or with a potential purchaser looking at it, doing a test merely advertise them for sale on the internet. So the drive and visiting the residential premises where the priggish neighbour who worries about what their visitors person selling it was based. I simply do not see the will think when they come round for dinner could be problem, and by going on that sort of website, one can faced with a whole street filled with cars that are being arguably get much better value for money. I shall not sold on the internet by a business, rather than being spoil my own story—or perhaps I will—by saying that labelled as for sale for everyone to see. we did not purchase this particular car because I found 831 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 832 [Lords] [Lords] out that it had been clocked by 100,000 miles—but that 9pm is a separate story, and this Bill does not go into dealing As I have said, I support amendment 26, which with that. Perhaps it is a cautionary tale for people who proposes the insertion of the words “in the course of try to buy cars in such circumstances. business” to deal with the sale of vehicles on the internet. I think I have exhausted my concerns about clause 9. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch It is an over-the-top reaction, and clause 10 has the (Mr Chope) that vehicle traders are causing a problem same problems in relation to the city of Westminster. I and inconveniencing many residents in London streets know that other hon. Friends want to contribute to the where parking is at a premium. However, the Bill is not debate, so I shall not repeat further points made by my intended to target the innocent Mr and Mrs Bloggs who hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset. are trying to sell their Morris Minor outside 22 Acacia However, his arguments for removing clauses 18 and 19, avenue; it is aimed at those who are seeking to sell more which are of general application and are wholly inimical than one car on the highway in the course of a business. to the principles of liberty, are very strong, so I heartily At present, existing legislation can deal with those who endorse them. seek to trade and advertise a car for sale on the highway, but, as we know, unscrupulous traders can always find a If it is not already clear, let me say that I have grave loophole and, in this instance, they have found it in the concerns about most of the clauses we are debating this internet. We must adapt to that, and ensure that such evening, and particularly about clause 9. I hope that in traders cannot continue to clog up our residential streets due course we will have the opportunity to test the will and inconvenience our local council tax payers without of the House on that clause. having to meet the legal requirements by ceasing to trade or regularising their activities. Mike Freer: I shall deal with a couple of points before My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch suggested talking about the amendments. Let me try to lay to rest that we should extend controlled parking zones. Westminster this issue about the variance of laws across the UK and has been mentioned in that context. I am not a great how people visiting London are suddenly going to be parker at Westminster—I cannot possibly afford it—and terribly confused—as if people living outside London for all I know most of it may well consist of yellow lines lack the competence to understand that laws change. or requirements for residents’ parking permits, but Westminster council is a very small council, one of the I am disappointed that my hon. Friend the Member smallest in the country. My local authority, Barnet, is for Shipley (Philip Davies) is not in his place this the largest borough in London in geographical terms. evening, as I took the opportunity to look at some of The suggestion that the whole borough of Barnet should the vagaries of local laws in his local authority of become a single CPZ to deal with the problem of Bradford. If I were minded to take a petrol-fuelled unscrupulous traders of vehicles on the highway simply model plane into a local park there, I would be prohibited does not hold water, not least because our residents from doing so, and I am sure that the people of London already oppose the continued expansion of CPZs. To who also wished to do so would be confused if they make the whole borough a CPZ would simply not be took their plane up the M1. If I chose to fly my kite practical, let alone popular. dangerously, although it is not made clear what is dangerous and what is safe kite flying, that would also Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend is beginning to expose be prohibited. If I were innocently to strum a guitar in a one of the problems that the Bill seeks to resolve. When public park, I would be intercepted by what my hon. CPZs are put into residential streets in London, up to Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob 80% of parking bays are often removed because of Rees-Mogg) would no doubt call a peak-capped local legislation that specifies the space in which parking is government official who would immediately throw me permitted, and residents are charged a premium to park out of the park. in their own streets. The Bill’s opponents would like that to be imposed on the whole of London, rather than favouring sensible regulation to control on-street trading. Jacob Rees-Mogg: If people are strumming a guitar, they ought to be arrested. Mike Freer: My hon. Friend has made a good point. Those of us who have had to implement widespread CPZs in our boroughs know that wherever there is a Mike Freer: As ever, I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s crossover edging must be allowed on either side, and perspicacity. There has always been a variance in local wherever there is a junction there must be regulation on authority legislation in the United Kingdom, and, in yellow lines and on signage. CPZs are not only increasing fact, that represents localism at its best. street clutter but, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, I may be wrong, and I hope that the House will reducing the amount of parking, which is already at a forgive me if I am, but my understanding of the “power premium in London. of competence” is that councils would be allowed to do Like my hon. Friend the Member for North East only what an individual can do. Given that individuals Somerset, I take the libertarian view that regulation of, do not have the power to regulate street trading, and, and taxes on, legitimate businesses are excessive, and I however attractive the prospect of ridding ourselves of should like to do everything possible to ensure that that a tortuous experience may seem, that sadly would not burden is reduced. But until the Government bring work in this instance. I also take the point that bad forward a true bonfire of regulation and a true reduction legislation is being promoted because constant amendments in business taxes, and until we can achieve the utopia are being proposed, but even Government legislation is for which we strive, we have to live in the real world and subject to amendment and redrafting. We accept that as deal with a pressing problem that is affecting London part of the process. residents. 833 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 834 [Lords] [Lords] Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that the and about dealing with a criminal activity that needs to vehicles to which he refers have to be taxed if they are be dealt with at all ends. I therefore wish that that the parked on the public highway? They cannot just have House will support my amendments. trade plates, as those of an ordinary motor dealer can. Untaxed vehicles have to be kept off the highway and Mr Nuttall: I start by thanking my hon. Friend the therefore, by definition, all the cars on the highway are Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) entitled to be there as taxed vehicles. for his great patience and unfailing courtesy in facilitating the progress of this Bill, albeit progress at a speed that Mike Freer: My hon. Friend is right, in that it is a must appear to many people to be that of a particularly legitimate use of the highway if a car is taxed and sluggish glacier. insured. However, it is not legitimate for an unscrupulous trader to exploit the loophole of the internet to take up Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is this not acres of our public highway. If Mrs Smith is trying to what Parliament should be doing, including with sell her own car outside her own house, that is legitimate. Government business, too? Should we not be properly But it is stretching the point to say that because vehicles scrutinising things? are taxed and insured, someone should be able to park 12 or 20 cars—as I have seen in my borough—without Mr Nuttall: I entirely agree. The quality of the legislation any regulation. that passes through this House would be enormously improved if it was subjected to the sort of Report stage I turn now to the vexed issue of hot dog trolleys. that this Bill is enjoying, when we have the time to When I was elected, I was looking forward to dealing examine each clause and, to be fair, the promoters listen with great matters of state, and hot dog trolleys are to the argument and, where necessary, make amendments, certainly high up on my list. Amendments P1, P2 and accepting amendments that they find agreeable in this P40 relate to this issue. If any Member who opposes place rather than in the other place. Such amendments this Bill would like to join me on an evening out in improve the quality of the legislation, so I am grateful Westminster to see the activities of these hot dog sellers, to my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders I would be more than happy to arrange such an evening Green for his patience in this matter. perambulation with colleagues from Westminster council. It would not be around the high spots of the west end, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for sniffing the fabulous aroma of onions: it would be Christchurch (Mr Chope) on his comprehensive and witnessing the trucks rolling up and offloading these detailed analysis of the merits of the various amendments flimsy wooden trolleys, with a bit of metal, a hotplate in this third debate. He built on and developed the and a gas bottle, on to the public highway and pavements. excellent critique offered by my hon. Friend the Member These are not some ancient tradition of Britain—people for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who being able to sell food on the pavement—but a dangerous continued where he left off on 25 January, with his practice. Let alone the public safety issues, behind those customary erudite evaluation and critical assessment of who are unloading these trolleys is organised crime. street trading. It is a matter of regret that on this occasion we are not able to hear from my hon. Friend To my knowledge, no one has requested that a single the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who always seized trolley be returned, but Westminster council is speaks with such common sense on these matters. We forced to store them for a period of time and then hope that even in his absence our deliberations will not dispose of them. That is an unfair cost on the good leave any stone unturned. council tax payers of Westminster. No one has gone to the magistrates court and said, “I’d like my trolley I agreed with all the points made by my hon. Friends back.” Even under these provisions, the owner of a the Members for Christchurch and for North East seized hot dog trolley, if so minded, could seek to have Somerset, but one or two further areas of concern and it returned, but I doubt that it will ever happen. perhaps unease need additional examination this evening. As you will have seen, Madam Deputy Speaker, this group is very large, comprising no fewer than Mr Chope: My hon. Friend suggests that this trade is 53 amendments, and my hon. Friend the Member for related to organised crime. If so, the police commissioner North East Somerset managed to deal with each one in in London should be getting to grips with the issue, slightly more than a minute, and my hon. Friend the instead of relying on piecemeal private legislation such Member for Christchurch dealt with each of them in as we are discussing. Why do not the Mayor of London less than one minute. I shall try to be as quick. and the police commissioner get to grips with this aspect of organised crime in London? The lead amendment relates to clause 9. My concern is not primarily on my own account. My principal concern is that the provisions may have an effect on my Mike Freer: I have no doubt that the police commissioner constituents living in Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington. is trying to deal with the gangs behind this activity. When many people hear the word “London”, particularly Members will know that in organised crime as soon as those living outside the capital, they concentrate their one captain is removed another steps forward. It is an minds on the centre of London, where the principal ongoing battle. The battle takes many forms, not least tourist attractions are located. Of course it is much through the police dealing with the crimes, but also more than that; it is home to millions of people. through dealing with the symptoms on the streets of London. That is why I do not seek to trivialise the issue and make it just about the aroma of onions, although I 9.15 pm am sure that that may weigh heavily for some of the I know from the example of many of my friends that good residents of Westminster. This is about public many of my constituents will, for one reason or another, health and public safety, about the cost to the taxpayer at some time live in one of the 32 London boroughs or 835 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 836 [Lords] [Lords] perhaps even in the City of London. That might be or that are nearing the end of their useful working life because they are studying at one of the universities in by someone for whom that is a lifelong hobby. In the London or because they have moved to the capital for course of a year, they could easily repair two or three work. Either way, they would be affected by the provisions vehicles that are damaged or of an elderly nature and in the Bill. We should knock on the head at the outset then offer them for sale by putting a note in the window, the idea that the Bill, simply because it is called the or perhaps nowadays by using the internet. Whether London Local Authorities Bill, is of no consequence to that is a business may be a grey area. Clearly, they anyone outside the capital. The Bill seeks to make laws would want to cover the cost of the repairs—their time, applicable only to London but I would not wish to see labour and parts. They may want to make a small extra any of my constituents unwittingly fall foul of them. amount that some would call a profit to cover their time All the amendments in this group relate to the clauses and trouble. Either way, it would be difficult for a that come under the general heading of part 4, “Licensing”, council official, whether in Westminster or any other and, in particular, clause 9 on street trading. The explanatory London borough, to decide whether or not that man memorandum that usefully accompanies the Bill states: was engaged in a trade. “Clause 9 makes further provision about street trading, in relation to the sale of vehicles over the internet. Under the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am extraordinarily grateful to existing street trading legislation in London, ‘street trading’ is my hon. Friend for giving way; he is most generous. I defined, broadly speaking, as meaning the selling or the exposure am concerned about who would decide whether it was a or offer for sale of any article and the supplying of or offering to trade. Would it simply be a council flunkey or would supply any service in a street for gain or reward (whether or not there be any form of appeal to protect an individual the gain or reward accrues to the person actually carrying out the trading).” who was not really trading but might be accused of trading? It goes on: “Under that definition it is unclear whether the sale of motor vehicles on the internet, where the vehicle is kept on the highway, Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a very interesting is included and the effect of Clause 9 will be to ensure that it is.” point. As we shall see in some of the later provisions—if time permits—the Bill seems to be trying to establish Clause 9 seeks to amend the London Local Authorities local authorities as judge and jury in their own case. Act 1990 by altering the definition in section 21 to provide a new subsection (1ZA), stating: Mr Bone: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving “In this Part of this Act ‘street trading’ shall also include the selling or exposure or offer for sale of any motor vehicle in the way. I realise that he is going through his speech rapidly course of a business if the vehicle is…exposed or offered for sale so that we have a chance to get to Third Reading this on the internet; and…kept on a street during the period when it is evening, but I wish he would slow down a little and so exposed or offered for sale.” think about the point in a bit more detail. Surely, there Amendment 22 offers what might be called the nuclear is only one institution that decides whether a person is option of taking clause 9 out completely, which would trading—Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. be my preferred option. Why do I say that? I have a number of reasons. First, it has been suggested that the Mr Nuttall: Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs sale of a single motor vehicle would not constitute an may well have reached a conclusion about the activities offence, but there is evidence, which I shall provide to of an individual who is engaged in what might in the House, that that has not been the case in the past. I another sphere be called hobby trading, in the way that refer to the case of the London borough of Haringey v. many people engage in what is known as hobby farming Mariuz Michniewicz in 2004. The defendant, who did by keeping a few hens, a couple of sheep or some cattle. not hold a street trading licence, was alleged to be the But someone who sells two or three vehicles a year, owner of a car parked in the street showing a notice that having repaired them as a hobby, would probably not be it was for sale with a price and a telephone number. The regarded and ought not to be regarded as being engaged justices at the magistrates court dismissed an information in a business. laid by Haringey borough council, which had alleged that unlicensed street trading had taken place, holding Jacob Rees-Mogg: The position from HMRC’s point that no offence had been committed by the defendant of view is interesting and important. Motor cars are under section 38 of the 1990 Act on the grounds that exempt from capital gains tax. Therefore, if somebody the offer of one car for sale did not amount to trading. was selling just one, it would not be subject to a profits However, the council appealed the decision by way of tax and would be exempt from capital gains tax, so it is case stated and the divisional court allowed the appeal. quite a good thing to do from a tax point of view. It held that section 38 was intended to include a situation where just one vehicle was offered for sale, and that Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point. If accordingly the case should be remitted to the justices the Revenue decided to investigate such matters and to bear that in mind with a direction to continue the concluded that the profits were taxable, there would be hearing. The ratio decidendi of Haringey borough council the difficulty of ascertaining what was taxable profit, against Michniewicz was that the display for sale in a because much of the cost would be for materials expended street of a single vehicle is capable of giving rise to an on the vehicle. In any event, unless it was the type of offence under section 38 of the London Local Authorities vehicle that my hon. Friend mentioned in his speech—an Act 1990—engaging in street trading when not the Aston Martin or a Ferrari—I suspect that the “profit” holder of a street trading licence or a temporary licence. would be less than the annual personal allowance for The case raises some very worrying points indeed. I capital gains tax purposes, which would probably mean have always maintained that there is a grey area relating that although it ought to be properly disclosed to the to the repair of cars involved in a motor vehicle accident Revenue, no tax was payable. 837 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 838 [Lords] [Lords] Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is talking about a new keen to impress his local authority superiors might be subject which has not been discussed tonight. I am glad driven down that road and could photograph the vehicle we are exploring something new, but is it not the case and take action under this provision, should it pass into that whether or not the person in the example pays tax, law. he will be regarded as trading? It is the Revenue that will The other, more fundamental, point about the clause make that decision. is that it might prevent young entrepreneurs setting out to make a living. I see car salesmen not as street traders Mr Nuttall: Even if that were the case and Her but as entrepreneurs. One of the reasons I came into Majesty’s Revenue and Customs decided that trading politics was that I wanted to encourage people to become had taken place, it might well be too late. HMRC may entrepreneurs, to believe in the free market and to sell not consider the matter until some time after the event. their goods and be buyers and sellers. We do not want a It could be as much as 10 months after the end of the situation in which local government sticks its nose into tax year before that taxpayer was required to file an every aspect of people’s lives. income tax return. The local authority official would be trying to make up their own mind on a fairly random Mr Bone: We now get to the nub of the matter. What basis, which might differ from borough to borough, we are seeing tonight is regulation being brought in for whether trading had taken place. apparently good reasons, but that is what happens all I shall touch briefly on another way in which the Bill the time. Parliament continually brings in regulation, would impinge on traders at the other end of the scale but then we say that there is too much of it. We should who take the plunge and open their own large or be looking at entrepreneurs and saying that what they medium-sized lot, selling cars as a genuine business. are doing is right, not adding regulation. That is what is They are quite open about it and have established their wrong. business with a trade name, they advertise in the newspaper and they have all their cars together on a car lot. It is Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One often the case with such businesses that from time to of the dangers of these provisions, and one of the ills time their stock overflows the land that they have, and that the amendments seek to address, is that they send they must temporarily resort to placing vehicles outside out a very negative message about entrepreneurship. It their premises—on the street, perhaps. They would be sends out the message that if someone tries to use their caught by the provision, even though for the rest of the initiative and start off in the motor trade we will jump time they were good, law-abiding citizens. It is very on them, try to put an end to it and stop them starting much a case of the law of unintended consequences out in life. when we pass such legislation, because the regulations might catch people who were perhaps not at the forefront of our minds when we considered these clauses. Sir Peter Bottomley: Regrettably, I suspect that our hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) has misled our hon. Friend the Member for Bury North Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point. (Mr Nuttall). Clause 9 states that the provisions should include any vehicle that is Mr Bone: Outrageous! “kept on a street during the period when it is so exposed or offered for sale”. He is basically saying that that should be changed to Sir Peter Bottomley: Unintentionally.If the entrepreneur being throughout the period when it is so exposed or were selling soap from a stall with four wheels on the offered to sale, because a short period could still make it public highway, with or without the use of the internet, vulnerable to being an offence. that would normally be caught by local government regulations. The fact is that selling a car with four wheels on the highway, using the internet, is not the Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It same as selling soap. One can either ignore the fact that again comes down to the precise wording of clause 9, the internet has been developed since previous local and I think that that change would be beneficial and authority powers over selling cars on the highway were would clarify the danger I have identified. Amendment 24, introduced, or say that the internet needs to be taken which I will move on to later, might well deal with the into account. If a local authority is saying, “We would matter. like to have the same power to deal with trading on the public highway using the internet for advertising as we 9.30 pm have for trading using the local newspaper,” I am not absolutely certain that a single sentence of the speech of Jacob Rees-Mogg: It occurs to me that a trader could my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North is directed be caught out by accident simply if someone took a car to what the power in clause 9 or what clause 10 are for a test drive and stopped by the side of the road. directed to. Suddenly, hey presto, the car would appear to be on the side of the road at the same time as being offered for Mr Nuttall: I see where my hon. Friend is coming sale on the internet and so could then be confiscated. from, but clause 9 does send out a message, because I do That would be absolutely terrible. not see such people as street traders. They may well have just one vehicle to sell, and they have to put it Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that somewhere, but, as we have seen from the case to which intervention. There is a risk that an over-zealous I referred earlier, there is a danger that it would be tatterdemalion—I have finally used the word—who was caught by the clause. 839 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 840 [Lords] [Lords] I also draw the attention of the House to another Menzies, Mark Sheridan, Jim problem that I have identified with the clause. The Mercer, Patrick Skinner, Mr Dennis clause is headed, “Street trading: vehicles and the internet” Miller, Andrew Smith, Angela and deals specifically and only with Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Moore, rh Michael Spellar, rh Mr John “exposed or offered for sale on the internet”, Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob in subsection (2). It does not deal with the many other Munt, Tessa Stewart, Iain ways in which a vehicle might be offered for sale in the Murray, Sheryll Stuart, Ms Gisela modern world without actually being said to be “on the Nash, Pamela Stunell, Andrew internet”. Perhaps the biggest example is when a company Neill, Robert Sturdy, Julian has an intranet. An intranet is by all definitions, as far I Newton, Sarah Swales, Ian have been able to check in my research, not regarded— O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tami, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Timms, rh Stephen Mike Freer claimed to move the closure (Standing Ollerenshaw, Eric Tomlinson, Justin Owen, Albert Twigg, Derek Order No. 36). Paisley, Ian Vara, Mr Shailesh Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Percy, Andrew Vickers, Martin put. Phillips, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Reeves, Rachel Wharton, James The House divided: Ayes 149, Noes 12. Reid, Mr Alan Wheeler, Heather Division No. 475] [9.37 pm Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Stephen Robertson, John Williamson, Chris AYES Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Wilson, Phil Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Gilbert, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Aldous, Peter Goodwill, Mr Robert Roy, Lindsay Wright, Simon Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Graham, Richard Russell, Sir Bob Alexander, Heidi Grayling, rh Chris Selous, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Andrew, Stuart Hain, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim Bob Blackman and Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Hamilton, Mr David Shelbrooke, Alec John Stevenson Austin, Ian Hands, Greg Bain, Mr William Harper, Mr Mark NOES Barclay, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Baker, Steve Nuttall, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Harvey, Nick Bruce, Fiona Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blenkinsop, Tom Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Hollobone, Mr Philip Syms, Mr Robert Blomfield, Paul Hayes, Mr John Jenkin, Mr Bernard Turner, Mr Andrew Bottomley, Sir Peter Hemming, John Leigh, Mr Edward Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hendrick, Mark Lord, Jonathan Tellers for the Noes: Brown, Mr Russell Hermon, Lady Mills, Nigel Mr Peter Bone and Buckland, Mr Robert Hilling, Julie Mowat, David Mr Christopher Chope Burden, Richard Hinds, Damian Byles, Dan Hollingbery, George Question accordingly agreed to. Campbell, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kris Campbell, Mr Gregory Horwood, Martin Question put accordingly, That the amendment be Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Howarth, rh Mr George made. Clark, rh Greg Howell, John The House divided: Ayes 11, Noes 96. Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hughes, rh Simon Division No. 476] [9.50 pm Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Mr Stewart Colvile, Oliver Jamieson, Cathy AYES Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Gareth Crausby, Mr David Jones, Andrew Baker, Steve Nuttall, Mr David Crockart, Mike Jones, Graham Bruce, Fiona Rees-Mogg, Jacob Crouch, Tracey Jones, Susan Elan Evans, Graham Turner, Mr Andrew Dakin, Nic Joyce, Eric Hollobone, Mr Philip Vickers, Martin David, Mr Wayne Lancaster, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Tellers for the Ayes: Davies, Glyn Latham, Pauline Mills, Nigel Mr Peter Bone and Dinenage, Caroline Lazarowicz, Mark Mowat, David Mr Christopher Chope Docherty, Thomas Lee, Dr Phillip Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leech, Mr John NOES Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lefroy, Jeremy Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burden, Richard Dorries, Nadine Leslie, Chris Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Alan Duddridge, James Lidington, rh Mr David Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Gregory Durkan, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Andrew, Stuart Clwyd, rh Ann Ellison, Jane Long, Naomi Austin, Ian Cooper, Rosie Evans, Chris Loughton, Tim Bain, Mr William Crockart, Mike Evans, Graham Luff, Peter Barclay, Stephen Crouch, Tracey Flynn, Paul Malhotra, Seema Beith, rh Sir Alan Dakin, Nic Francois, rh Mr Mark McCabe, Steve Blenkinsop, Tom David, Mr Wayne Freer, Mike McCartney, Karl Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Gale, Sir Roger McIntosh, Miss Anne Bottomley, Sir Peter Docherty, Thomas George, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dodds, rh Mr Nigel 841 London Local Authorities Bill 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Local Authorities Bill 842 [Lords] [Lords] Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Nash, Pamela accepted a lot of the ideas and criticism put forward by Ellison, Jane Offord, Mr Matthew me and my parliamentary colleagues. That vindicates Evans, Chris Owen, Albert the whole process of giving such Bills detailed scrutiny. Flynn, Paul Paisley, Ian Freer, Mike Percy, Andrew George, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Sir Peter Bottomley: There is a distinction between Gilbert, Stephen Reid, Mr Alan vindication and the reason for something happening, is Hamilton, Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan there not? Harris, Rebecca Rogerson, Dan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Rosindell, Andrew Mr Chope: I am sorry, but I could not hear the last Hemming, John Roy, Lindsay word that my hon. Friend uttered. Hendrick, Mark Russell, Sir Bob Hilling, Julie Shannon, Jim Hinds, Damian Sheridan, Jim Sir Peter Bottomley: At the risk of repeating myself, Hollingbery, George Skinner, Mr Dennis there is a distinction between vindication and the result Hopkins, Kris Smith, Angela of certain people’s activities. Horwood, Martin Spellar, rh Mr John Howarth, rh Mr George Stewart, Bob Mr Chope: I do not understand that, because what Hughes, rh Simon Stewart, Iain happened was that the wisdom of a lot of the amendments Jackson, Mr Stewart Stuart, Ms Gisela that we tabled immediately commended itself to the Jenkin, Mr Bernard Swales, Ian promoters of the Bill. That is why we have just agreed to Johnson, Gareth Syms, Mr Robert a group of amendments that will make the Bill much Jones, Graham Tami, Mark better than it would have been. Fortunately, some of the Jones, Susan Elan Timms, rh Stephen Lazarowicz, Mark Tomlinson, Justin most pernicious parts of the Bill were taken out in Lee, Dr Phillip Twigg, Derek Committee. Therefore, the Bill that we will be considering Leech, Mr John Watts, Mr Dave when we resume our Third Reading debate will be very Lefroy, Jeremy Wharton, James different from the Bill that was presented to this House Lilley, rh Mr Peter Wheeler, Heather after it had gone through the other place. Long, Naomi Williams, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Madam Malhotra, Seema Wilson, Phil Deputy Speaker. There are times in Committee when an McCartney, Karl Winterton, rh Ms Rosie amendment has been discussed at length and then the McFadden, rh Mr Pat Woodcock, John McIntosh, Miss Anne Chair can decide that there has been sufficient debate Miller, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: on the issues and the question is put. Would it be Mosley, Stephen John Stevenson and acceptable to move that the question now be put that Munt, Tessa Bob Blackman the Bill be read a third time, on the grounds that during the discussions on the various amendments we have had sufficient discussion of the purpose of the Bill, and if Question accordingly negatived. so, may I move that the question now be put? Amendment 26 made.—(Mr Chope.) Amendments P1 to P2 made.—(Mike Freer.) Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): No. It Amendments 35 to 39 made.—(Mr Chope.) would not be proper, and no, the question cannot be put as a second point in a point of order. Amendment P40 made.—(Mike Freer.) Third Reading Mr Chope: That was an unnecessarily impertinent Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be and provocative intervention by my hon. Friend. now read the Third time.—(Mike Freer.) As we were deprived of a speech from the Minister on the last group of amendments on Report and because 10.5 pm the Government abstained from the vote on clause 9, everybody is gagging to hear from the Minister what the Mr Chope: Everybody seems to be rather reluctant to Government’s approach is to the full contents of the engage in this Third Reading debate—admittedly, we Bill, now that it has been amended. When we reflect on probably have only two minutes for it. By the time we what has happened this evening, we will inevitably are able to debate Third Reading properly, I hope that regret that we did not hear from the Minister, who has the promoters will have ensured that the Bill is reprinted, been sitting in his place for the best part of three hours because a large number of amendments have been and who, from my recollection, has not uttered a word. made to the Bill in this House. Mr Bone: One of the advantages in the House is that Mr Bone: Does my hon. Friend agree that that is after Report, Members such as me who did not have a probably why the promoter of the Bill was reluctant to chance to speak have a chance to speak on Third start this Third Reading debate, as he wanted the House Reading. There are so many more Members who are to have the printed material so that we could discuss it now interested in the Bill that I am sure they will turn properly? up when we next debate the Bill on Third Reading.

Mr Chope: I think that may well be so. Indeed, I am Mr Chope: Again, my hon. Friend makes a good grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, because point. I hope that he will be able to make a significant in the course of this Bill’s progress the promoters have contribution to the Third Reading of this Bill. 843 21 FEBRUARY 2012 844

I give notice that although the Bill is significantly Pension Industry amended compared with what it was at the outset, in Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House my view it still contains a lot that is pernicious and do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.) detrimental to the freedom of the citizens of this country. Visitors to London will be taken by surprise when they find themselves on the wrong side of the law. One of the 10.11 pm Bill’s biggest problems is that it legislates partially for a David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I am delighted particular area of the country. If there is a mischief, to have this opportunity to raise a number of emerging that mischief applies across the whole of the country cost structure issues within the UK pension market. and should be dealt with in a public Bill, if necessary on This is an area in which I continue to receive a high the basis of enabling legislation so that local authorities number of representations from constituents, and the could opt in— recent debate over public sector pensions has highlighted yet again the vast disparity that continues to exist 10.10 pm between public and private sector provision. My view is Three hours having elapsed since the commencement of that we should now stop talking about public sector proceedings on consideration, the debate was interrupted pensions and ensure that the vast majority of the work (Programme Order 7 February). force who make up the private sector get a better deal. Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Tuesday The prognosis is not good, however, because of the 28 February. endemic mistrust within the industry. Indeed, a recent National Association of Pension Funds survey found Business without Debate that 48% of the population did not believe that pension provision was a suitable form of investment. The timing of this debate is important for two reasons. SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (20 AND 23 MARCH) The first is the imminent introduction of auto-enrolment Motion made, which, for the first time, will introduce many millions of That— new and relatively unsophisticated consumers into the (1) there shall be no sitting in Westminster Hall on Tuesday market. The second is the emerging evidence of a serious 20 March; and market failure in both the investment and annuity provision (2) this House shall sit on Friday 23 March.—(Greg Hands.) segments of the industry. That market failure is robbing ordinary families of tens of thousands of pounds and Hon. Members: Object. of their chance of a decent retirement. Before we investigate the causes of the problems, I should like to indentify the three distinct segments of BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PRIVATE the market. The first involves those in the public sector, MEMBERS’ BILLS) about whom we have talked many times in this place. Motion made, They are well catered for in comparison to others. An That Private Members’Bills shall have precedence over Government illustration of that is the fact that a £10,000 pension business on 6 and 13 July, 7 and 14 September, 19 and 26 October taken at the age of 65, would, in the free market, require and 2, 9 and 30 November 2012 and 18 and 25 January, 1 February a pension pot of about £250,000 a year. That is what the and 1 March 2013.—(Greg Hands.) private sector is competing with. Hon. Members: Object. The second segment of the industry involves those in the private sector who have made some attempt to provide for themselves, either because they are in a final salary scheme or—more likely, given that nearly all final salary schemes are now closed—a money purchase scheme.

Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. The strivers in this country who work hard and do the right thing in providing for their own pension in retirement are finding that their private sector final salary pensions disappeared 10 or 15 years ago, and that their endowment policies—remember those, from the 1980s?—are delivering half of what was promised. In the light of that, and of the Equitable Life scandal, does my hon. Friend agree that it is a 21st century scandal that the fund managers in the City are still getting paid and receiving bonuses?

David Mowat: I thank my colleague for that intervention. I was just about to say that the average pension pot for the people in the sector I mentioned is of the order of £35,000 a year. That is enough for a pension of about £1,500 a year. The third segment of potential pensioners are those for whom no provision whatever has yet been made. The Government are correctly trying to reach them 845 Pension Industry21 FEBRUARY 2012 Pension Industry 846

[David Mowat] correlation, the fact that the charging regime is so opaque means that the punters could not get to grips through auto-enrolment. This segment contains the with it in the first place. One of the many consequences most unsophisticated consumers who need the most is that this industry has failed to consolidate. I looked at protection. a platform provider this morning and found that I could It is right, as the industry says, for people to save have bought 5,000 funds. There is no reason for that more, but when their funds are eroded by unnecessary other than the fact that this industry has not been costs and when annuities provide such poor value, exposed to market forces. many people in these groups say, “why bother?”. Up to a point, they are right, but this is the tragedy: we must Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. save more, yet the Government have not put in place the Gentleman accept that one problem in the private pension environment that is necessary for effective saving. What sector is the lack of transparency when someone in that means in policy terms is that the Government are public sector employment on a low salary decides to inheriting under-pensioned retirees, with all that that take out a little private pension to help them along? means for social security, despite the fact that the When it comes to the day of reckoning—when people Government spend £33 billion a year in pension tax want to cash the pension in—they realise that it prevents relief. This tax relief that should be subsidising retirement them from enjoying the benefits system because it just prosperity is, frankly, being siphoned off to fund managers puts them over the threshold that would have allowed through investment and annuity overcharging. I shall them to receive the benefits to which perhaps other talk first about the fund management industry and then family members or their colleagues are entitled. There about annuities. should be transparency about what people get from The Financial Services Authority has recently published their pension and how it affects them in the welfare statistics estimating that 31% of pension pots go in system. charges or fees. Clearly, the decision on which pension to purchase is, along with buying a house and buying a David Mowat: I agree. The key word that the hon. car, one of biggest decisions in people’s lives, yet they do Gentleman used in that intervention was “transparency”. it from a position of ignorance. The reason that the If the market is to work, there must be transparency market does not work is that there is a massive asymmetry and comparability, but it seems to me that there are of information between providers and buyers and therefore people in the industry who do not want the market to of buyer confidence. work. The market might work better if independent The area is complex, but the whole problem is advice were freely available, but in the past the industry compounded by an opaque fee structure, which is indicated has effectively controlled advisers by treating them as by the types of charges relating to pensions—entrance paid intermediaries with a commission structure that charges, platform charges, annual charges, exit charges compromised their independence, and between 2002 and, indeed, churn charges. Some of these appear in and 2007 its payments to such intermediaries for their published overall cost figures and some do not. For advice rose by 50%. Hopefully the retail distribution example, the churn charge is not included by pension review will deal with the problem, and I give the fund managers in the cost structure of what they call Government credit for that. the TCR—transitional corresponding relief—ratio of a fund. This can be responsible, according to Money Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the Management, for changing a 31% figure into a staggering hon. Gentleman on raising this matter tonight. My 53%. That means that 53% of the money going into hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) pension funds goes in charges. If we examine the average mentioned people who have taken out small pensions degree of churn in a pension fund, we find a rate of and who also fall into a tax bracket. Does the hon. 128%, meaning that every equity in it is churned every Gentleman agree that their position should also be seven months. Warren Buffett takes the view that equity reviewed by the Government? should be held for a lot longer than that. Frankly, holding it for something like seven months is simply not David Mowat: I shall be making a number of suggestions right. to the Minister later, and I certainly agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Does my hon. Friend I also give the Government—in fact, the last Government agree that this is one reason why the pension industry —credit for setting up the National Employment Savings never really embraced stakeholder pensions, as they Trust, without which auto-enrolment would be entirely would effectively put a cap on the amount the industry untenable. Given its low charges and what appears to be could make out of pensions? a sensible investment policy, the organisation has an important contribution to make. However, as I shall David Mowat: I am coming on to stakeholders and to make clear later, I think that the Government could be caps. I want to ask the Minister some questions about more radical about what NEST can achieve. those issues. Let me summarise the position by saying that the The industry defends itself by saying that active fund management part of the industry has evolved into funds are worth paying for, claiming that higher charges a mess. The market has failed owing to asymmetry of are fair enough if better returns are secured, but the information and lack of transparency, and we are about reality is that no correlation has ever been published to to impose auto-enrolment on top of that mess. The show a relationship between charges and returns. The £35 billion of tax subsidy that is currently provided will consultants Lane Clark and Peacock recently issued a increase, and will be supplemented by employer and report to demonstrate that. Even if there were such a employee contributions which will also run into the 847 Pension Industry21 FEBRUARY 2012 Pension Industry 848 billions. Those cash flows ought to be finding their way provider offering £3,600 for an annuity pot and then a into better pensions rather than into the Chelsea property subsequent provider offering £26,000. That may be an market. outlier, but the facts are that 90% of retirees buy pensions I ask the Minister to assure us that before any of this from their existing fund manager and a very high number happens, he will take the following steps. First, there of those get below what the open market would offer. should be a template for charge structures that will This matters to the Government—or it should do—because facilitate transparency, comparability and reporting. those massive profits siphoned off by the industry are An analogous debate is taking place in the Department resulting in hardship and an increased reliance on state of Energy and Climate Change about energy suppliers, benefits. who are being required to introduce tariffs that allow What should we do? I have five suggestions for the comparison. Exactly the same should happen in this Minister. First, the Government should consider setting industry: indeed, it is more important for it to happen in up an equivalent of NEST, specialising in the low cost this industry than in energy. provision of annuities. The IT and business process Secondly, there should be a charges cap on any supplier challenges around annuity provision are easier, as the who becomes involved in auto-enrolment. I was staggered cash does not need to be collected. At a stroke, the to read in a written answer that the Minister did not Government could provide an organisation that was a consider that necessary.A 1% cap was applied to stakeholder hallmark for fairness and best practice. Lord Myners pensions, and the same should apply in this case. has suggested that the Government allow people to purchase Treasury bonds direct, which would fit in with Thirdly, some of the restrictions on NEST should be my proposal. removed. The philosophical basis of the contribution limit of £4,400 and the restrictions on transfers in and Secondly, the Government should consider making it out was that the purpose of NEST was not to compete illegal for the organisation that administers the saving with the market, but to operate in the parts of the regime to also provide an annuity. The advantage of market in which organisations do not wish to operate. this is that it keeps the Government out altogether while That is an inadequate approach, and I think that the helping to make the market work. At a stroke, we would Government should be more proactive. Finally, the get new entrants to the market who are likely to be Government must ensure that there is no further slippage smaller, hungrier and more efficient. There are many in the introduction of the RDR. Unbiased investment precedents for this in the private sector. I used to work advice is sorely needed, and needed soon. in the IT industry and it was not uncommon for those who designed an application to be forbidden to bid for I fear that unless those measures are adopted, auto- implementation, because the procurement people wanted enrolment will compound a failure that could easily to ensure that the relationship advantage that had developed become our next mis-selling scandal. did not affect the pricing for the final step. Let me now say something about annuities. It is Thirdly, if the Government continue the existing possible for people to take their pension pots and then system, in which providers attempt this seamless transition, purchase annuities that will support them for the rest of there should be a rule that an annuity provided should their lives. However, the background is already tough— be signed off by an independent financial advisor. That quantitative easing and life expectancy have driven down is a simple step and would ensure that the lethal combination annuity rates—and the solvency II requirements may of asymmetry of information and “relationship abuse” make the position even worse. It is clearly critical that do not combine to rip off the retiree. the public obtain the best value possible. This means shopping around, but that is exactly what the big players The fourth measure is a similar regime for annuities in the industry do not want to happen. They want to as I have suggested for charges for investment funds. We stop it because it is their belief that they “own” that should insist on a few, relatively simple categories, and customer relationship, and they want to turn that ownership that would force transparency and comparability, also into more profit using two techniques. The first is the forcing the market to work properly. I believe in the attempt to make the transition from savings into annuity market, but in this industry it has not worked. The seamless. That means putting an application form in industry will say that standardisation will limit choice, with the final pension statements along with their own but they would say that, wouldn’t they? This is a simple quotes. This, combined with a relationship sometimes transaction that needs to be made easier. developed over decades, is often enough to trap retirees Finally, the Government should implement a system into unsuitable and inadequate products. The second in which retirees approaching the annuity purchase technique is using the asymmetry of information that point are much better informed about their options. we have seen in other areas to ensure that the retiree They should be able to go to the open market and it would need a maths qualification and a lot of intellectual should be forbidden for application forms to be put in self-confidence to sort out a better deal. with the actual pension round-up statement. The National I have mentioned complexity, and I found the following Association of Pension Funds has a number of sensible sorts of annuities on the web—enhanced, fixed, guaranteed, measures in this regard, but I am of the view that that immediate needs, impaired, income, index-linked, joint fifth one, on its own, is not enough. life, lifetime, lump sum, protected rights, purchase life, In summary, it is vital that our people in our country single life, variable life, with profits and smokers. For save more than they are saving at the moment, but we the average punter to intelligently work out what is best do not wish to continue saving if the tax relief on that is for him and his family using that lot is very tough channelled off for the property market in Chelsea and indeed. The fundamental business objective is simple, does not go to the savers themselves. Ordinary families but that is not how the market has evolved. The consequence continue to be penalised by an industry that has made has been mis-selling on an epic scale. A recent report supranormal profits by creating and exploiting a market from the CASS business school mentioned an existing failure, and the Government need to address that. If the 849 Pension Industry21 FEBRUARY 2012 Pension Industry 850

[David Mowat] The truth is that pensions charges have been decreasing for several years. The introduction of stakeholder pensions, Minister allows auto-enrolment to go ahead without with their 1% charge cap, continued a trend away from reform, we are setting the scene for the next mis-selling the high initial costs of personal pensions in the 1980s scandal. I understand that it is tough for him to resist and 1990s. Today, a 1% charge is perceived as more of a the lobbyists, who will be all over him on this, but maximum than a benchmark for basic schemes, and the self-regulation is not enough and the time to act is now. pensions market is responding rapidly to the challenges of automatic enrolment and the presence of NEST. New schemes, such as NOW: Pensions, with its 10.30 pm £18 administration charge and 0.3% annual management charge, and B&CE’s proposed scheme with a basic The Minister of State, Department for Work and 0.5% AMC, show that automatic enrolment and NEST Pensions (Chris Grayling): I congratulate my hon. Friend are helping to continue downward pressure on charges the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) on and maintaining price competition. securing this important debate. He made some thoughtful comments about an issue that affects a large number of We understand that automatic enrolment means that not only his constituents, but those of all hon. Members. many more individuals who are not engaged with saving He has raised issues that are central in tackling the or who might be daunted by pensions information will challenges of increasing longevity and an ageing society, be enrolled, so we need to ensure that providers are and are crucial to the success of our strategy to increase properly disciplined by the market and consumers can pensions savings. He has raised many issues and we hold them to account. have taken careful note of what he has said tonight. I The Pensions Act 2011 extended the Government’s will try to address as many of them as I can in the time powers to set a cap on pensions charges and there are available to me, but we will also be very open to an certainly arguments to say that charge capping is the ongoing dialogue with him about his concerns. right approach, but it is easier said than done. Should My hon. Friend rightly says that automatic enrolment we decide to introduce a cap, we must identify an in workplace pensions begins this year, and it represents appropriate level and consider different charging structures a once-in-a-generation opportunity to transform our in a way that compares them and ensures that there is savings culture. Millions of new savers will enter the no room for non-compliance. Those are all issues of pensions market, and that market will have to evolve to some complexity; it is not a straightforward exercise in accommodate them with a new generation of pensions which we simply say that there will be a one-size-fits-all products that will come into being. There are already cap. I can assure hon. Members, however, that the signs that competition in the industry is strong, is Government will not hesitate to deploy a charge cap if driving higher standards and, importantly, is keeping it proves necessary to ensure that individuals’ pensions downward pressure on charges. That is welcome but, as saving are not at risk from excessive charging. he rightly says, it is essential that the Government ensure that all schemes, particularly those that target To help build public confidence in saving, we must unengaged and financially unsophisticated savers, are also help people to understand how much they are fit for purpose. As he rightly set out, that is especially paying for their pensions, by which I mean both the important when it comes to charges, costs and annuities. employer who is choosing a workplace scheme for his or her employees and the scheme members themselves. On the costs and charges, individuals who perceive There is still a long way to go in opening up real their charges to be excessively high or unfair will be less transparency about how much a member pays and for inclined to save. For those who do save, as my hon. what and about how their pension is managed. Friend has highlighted, even relatively small differences Transparency, as my hon. Friend rightly says, is of in charge levels can have a dramatic effect on retirement fundamental importance. income. So excessive charges cannot be allowed to become an obstacle to achieving the levels of pension My hon. Friend raises the question of whether the saving that individuals, and we collectively as a nation, contribution and transfer restrictions put in place to need in order to ensure security and dignity in retirement focus NEST on its target market should remain. That for future generations of pensioners. We as a nation question is being looked into by the Select Committee’s invest about £33 billion a year in the pensions industry, current inquiry. There are arguments both ways, but I but we really do need individuals to be putting aside assure my hon. Friend that the Government will money for their retirement as well. be considering the Select Committee’s evidence and recommendations very carefully when it reports next We should acknowledge the positive impact of NEST. month. Evidence presented last month to the Select Committee on Work and Pensions recognised that NEST is helping In the time I have left, I shall touch on the question of to lead best practice in promoting high standards of annuities because, as my hon. Friend rightly says, they governance, responsible investment and effective are at the heart of the debate about how we will make communications. My hon. Friend is right to say that good provision through private schemes. For the majority low charges are important. They matter most for the of people, annuitisation is still the most effective way to many people newly enrolled into pension savings. provide an income in retirement, but as he points out Encouragingly, departmental research suggests that charges annuity rates have been falling for several reasons. Increased for default funds are already unlikely to be excessive, longevity and people spending longer in retirement are with the average annual management charge in default significant issues, and there are wider policy areas, such funds between 0.4% and 0.6%. That is a really important as the state pension age and extending working lives, element in what is happening, but he is right to express that mean that we cannot simply see annuitisation in concern about charging and its impact. isolation. 851 Pension Industry21 FEBRUARY 2012 Pension Industry 852

I want to focus on two critical points that my hon. Member for Warrington South will understand it if I do Friend has raised: the importance of consumers not go into more detail at this time and that he will be understanding their options and their shopping around present in the Chamber for that statement when it to compare offers when they come to make decisions comes. about annuitisation. On those two points, he has the full These initiatives represent a wholesale improvement support of both the Financial Secretary to the Treasury across the pensions landscape, but that landscape is ever and the Minister of State, Department for Work and fluid; we need to make sure that we take advantage of Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate the potential opportunities presented by auto-enrolment. (Steve Webb), who is the Minister responsible for pensions. We should therefore consider the role Government can That is why the DWP and the Treasury have been play in determining scale, and ask ourselves whether the working with consumer groups, industry representatives high fragmentation of the UK pensions market offers and other Government bodies to bolster the current good value, or whether a smaller number of larger right to the open market option by developing a default schemes could offer lower charges and better governance, option. The intention is to ensure that consumers are to the advantage of members. not pushed through the transition from saver to annuitant My hon. Friend has made a series of points that I in such a way that they end up with unsuitable products regard as a valuable contribution to the debate. We shall and to make certain that the consumer does not simply read his remarks carefully and think about the implications sign an application form without fully exploring their of his suggestions. I feel confident that the impact of options. NEST, the downward trend of charge levels across the The Association of British Insurers has recently consulted market and the steps we and the industry are taking to on a new draft code of conduct that sets out new increase transparency all serve to advance member requirements on all its members. As we announced in engagement and improve the annuitisation process. They September, we believe the code is an important step in all point to a world where consumers can feel more changing the dynamics in the annuitisation process. The informed and more secure about how much they are draft proposals are a condition of ABI membership paying and what they receive in return. and state that consumers must be directed to the open I assure all hon. Members who have contributed to market option and that packs issued by providers must the debate that the Government will be watching closely not include an application form. They also propose a as the pensions landscape, under automatic enrolment, clear three-step customer journey to help consumers continues to evolve. with the decision-making process and is a key step in Question put and agreed to. addressing the asymmetry of information. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will make an announcement on the work of the open market option review group in 10.40 pm the near future, so I hope that my hon. Friend the House adjourned.

193WH 21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 194WH

my constituency. That area has also lost its last bank Westminster Hall branch, which is impacting on businesses. Does he think that it is incumbent on the Government, perhaps Tuesday 21 February 2012 through the Minister, to convene a summit of the big banks and demand that where a bank branch is the last in a community, banks must respect the need of that [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] community for it to remain open? To help the Government achieve that objective, does the hon. Gentleman think Rural Bank Closures that it is worth considering a British version of the Community Reinvestment Act, which forces banks to Motion made, and Question proposed, that the sitting disclose where they lend and to demonstrate that they be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) are performing well in order to maintain their banking licences? 9.30 am Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): It is Roger Williams: I believe that the Government have a a great pleasure to bring this important matter to the role to play, and such a summit may be the way forward. attention of the Chamber, and to serve under your We could also support trials of community banks in chairmanship, Mr Brady. About a year ago, I secured a which a number of different banks come together to Westminster Hall debate on a similar matter. Another provide banking facilities, thereby cutting costs for individual Treasury Minister responded to that debate, but it is a banks but maintaining a facility for the community. great pleasure that this Minister is present today to respond to my remarks. Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) I have secured the debate to reiterate my concerns (Con): Should we not be a little careful about taking this about the closure of bank branches in rural areas. issue out on the banks that are still in rural areas? We Although 20% of the population live in rural areas, it should be going after those banks that were first or has never been more difficult for them to access money second to leave an area, not those that have stuck it for and financial services. As hon. Members may recall, I as long as they have. raised this issue nearly a year ago following the closure of Barclays bank in Rhayader in my constituency. That Roger Williams: My hon. Friend makes a good point, town of nearly 2,000 people was left with a single but the responsibility lies with all the banks. They have branch of HSBC bank that ran a reduced service just got to come together a find a way of addressing the three days a week. Such a situation made it increasingly problem. difficult for local people and businesses to access their money, and meant that they had either to change their Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Should the account to HSBC, or travel 14 miles to Builth Wells and Government be looking at closures over the past 10 years, the nearest Barclays bank. and at which banks have closed branches and which Sadly, Brecon and Radnorshire now has a new case have not? They could then force banks to get together study. On 9 March this year—unless the bank has a and create a common policy for bank closure programmes Damascene conversion as a result of this debate—the in rural areas. Each bank would take part of the burden branch of HSBC in Presteigne will close. That will leave so that it would not be left to just one bank. a community of nearly 2,500 people with just one branch of Lloyds TSB that is open only on Wednesday Roger Williams: There is a theme running through and Friday and between the limited hours of 9.30 am the interventions that I have taken so far. The problem to 3 pm—a mere 11 hours per week. Furthermore, the is a responsibility for all the major banks, rather than branch has no cash machine, and I will return to that for a specific bank in a particular town or community, point. News of the branch closure met with a huge or even in Harrow. Banks should come together and response from the people of Presteigne, who managed solve the problem. to collect more than 500 signatures in a petition against Presteigne is not only a sleepy country town; it contains it. They see the closure as a desperate shame; one a number of innovative businesses such as Mangar resident told me that she has seldom seen the bank International, which manufactures, designs and supplies empty, and that there is usually a queue. rehabilitation and assisted living equipment of a sort Let me describe Presteigne in a few words. The editor not found anywhere else in the world. Teledyne Labtech of Country Life magazine, Clive Aslet, considers it to be manufactures microwave circuits, and there are a number one of Britain’s top 10 towns in which to live. It is an of other businesses. We were lucky to have attracted active, transition town that engages with environmental those businesses through the Development Board for issues to an extent rarely seen in other places. It is Rural Wales, and a number of manufacturing facilities heading towards a strategy of zero waste; a large allotment sprang up in Presteigne of which we are proud and wish area has just opened and proved popular. The voluntary to hold on to. I cannot, however, see us being able to East Radnor day centre brings in elderly people from attract that type of development if there is no bank in the countryside to share friendship and a meal together, Presteigne—it is unlikely that businesses will be attracted as well as providing other services. Presteigne’s music to areas where banking is not available. festival is internationally renowned and premiers many musical compositions. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): The this debate; he has made some pertinent points. Last hon. Gentleman is describing Presteigne, which sounds month I had a letter from my bank, HSBC in Y Tymbl. almost as beautiful and wonderful as north Harrow in It is closing, so perhaps I should declare an interest. 195WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 196WH

[Jonathan Edwards] Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), have been among six closures in Wales since September. I think that there has This issue affects valley communities, as well as rural been a total of 17 closures across Wales by HSBC since areas. What thought has the hon. Gentleman given to 2009, although I should add that not all of those have alternative banking models such as credit unions? In been in rural areas. Ireland and the USA, for example, those are mainstream However, this debate has not been called to highlight institutions, rather than being banking for the poor as cases in my constituency or to single out HSBC. A they are in Wales at the moment. They also perform an recent report from the Campaign for Community Banking important economic function by lending to small businesses. Services produced a breakdown by region and country Could that be part of the solution? of the number of communities dependent on one or two banks, together with a report on the situation for Roger Williams: The hon. Gentleman anticipates a individual banks. The latter revealed the halving of theme that I intended to expand later in my remarks. I HSBC’s share of one-bank communities in England value the work done by credit unions, but in the area of and Wales to 10% as it continues significantly to reduce Wales with which I am familiar, they do not seem to its network coverage. Perhaps the case of Presteigne enlarge and extend their capacity to provide facilities and other closures explain why there is no mention of for businesses, or even mortgages, but work only at HSBC’s popular slogan, “The world’s local bank”, in its microfinancial level. The hon. Gentleman makes a good January 2012 television advertising campaign. point, and in these extreme circumstances it may be that Figures from last year show that since 1990, 44% of the mutual model will once again establish itself and all banks, including converted building societies, have become more important in our communities, which I been closed. That equates to 7,555 fewer retail banking would welcome. branches nationwide. That has left the UK with only The Presteigne chamber of commerce has a very 190 bank and building society branches per million active chair, Rosamund Black. She fears that the closure inhabitants, which is very poor in comparison with the of HSBC will cause extreme inconvenience and hardship 940 branches per million inhabitants in Spain, 560 per and seriously damage the structure of the town. She million in Italy and 470 per million in Germany. There said to me that people use the bank for more than is a better geographical spread throughout those countries simple financial transactions; the staff provide a vital and they have retained far more locally owned branches. service in offering advice and helping to solve the banking Granted, they generally make modest charges for operating queries of many residents, particularly the elderly, whom personal as well as business accounts, but at least they they help with bill payments and other financial have the face-to-face services that so many people still transactions. want. However, despite the efforts of the community—I The report of the Independent Commission on Banking, pay particular tribute to the mayor of Presteigne, John the recommendations of which the Government have Kendall, to the Assembly Member for Brecon and pledged to implement in full, stresses the need for a Radnorshire, Kirsty Williams, and to the chair of the challenger bank and increased competition in high street chamber of commerce—they appear to have been banking. The German model, for example, provides for unsuccessful in persuading HSBC to maintain the bank. excellent competition and a much more community-focused Indeed, that closure will follow other closures. approach. Lowering the barriers to entry and facilitating greater competition could allow for banks specialising Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the in lending to small and medium-sized enterprises, as the hon. Gentleman on securing this timely debate. The Federation of Small Businesses has suggested, for banks HSBC branch in Kirton in Lindsey, in my constituency, that have a more local or community focus or perhaps announced recently that it was closing. The situation even for banks that specialise in providing facilities for mirrors exactly what the hon. Gentleman is describing groups that are normally hard to reach, such as rural in terms of the role of the bank in the community. It is communities. one of the key pillars of the community. Taking the 2011 showed no sign of a slowdown in the number of bank away unsettles the whole community infrastructure closures. A Campaign for Community Banking Services in the way he describes, and that is not driven by report that came out earlier this month showed that the customer preference. It is driven by the mission of the number of rural communities with only two banks bank. In the case of the Kirton in Lindsey bank, it remaining is 446. means that constituents will have to travel 9 miles to the nearest banking facility, so this is clearly an issue that Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I congratulate the needs addressing. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He has been a airing it today. consistent campaigner on this issue. He is setting out how, since he brought the issue to this Chamber in Roger Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes a very March 2011, the level of bank closures has continued good point, because public transport in rural areas is apace. Is he aware of any improvements on the ground difficult at the best of times. Requiring people to travel as a result of Government intervention—Government distances of 9 miles or, in an example from my constituency, policies—since March 2011, or is the lack of any such 14 miles makes it very difficult for people to obtain the improvements the reason for his bringing the issue to advice and support that they need in making financial the Chamber again? decisions. There have also been a number of closures by HSBC in Wales. The closures in Llandysul, in Ceredigion, Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that and in Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant in Powys, in the intervention, but I think that I have made it clear constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for that although I believe that the Government can take a 197WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 198WH degree of initiative in this field, it is really the responsibility debate last March? I ask that because the Financial of individual banks or banks as a whole to ensure that Secretary to the Treasury, who has direct responsibility they are able to service these vulnerable communities, for this issue, has said: because they owe a debt of loyalty to them. “The Government do not intervene in…decisions as to whether, and where, banks maintain branches.”—[Official Report, 26 January Chris Ruane: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving 2012; Vol. 539, c. 329W.] way to me again. I do not have the exact phrase with me, In a recent debate, he also suggested that if the Government but does he recall the banker who said, 18 months into intervened to stop bank branch closures, banks would the recession, that the time for remorse is over? That continue to face high costs. Clearly, a more sophisticated banker misjudged the mood of the nation then and, Minister is answering this debate, and one hopes that indeed, now. Relying purely on the good will of bankers she will have the courage to take a slightly different when that is the feeling from them—the time for remorse view. The answers to our questions surely underline the is over—is not likely to bring about the change that need for a summit so that banks do not think that the most of us in this Chamber want. Government condone further bank branch closures.

Roger Williams: In the long run, it is in the banks’ Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that interest to ensure that they provide a comprehensive intervention. One reason why I called for the debate is level of service to the communities that they wish to that I am not prepared to allow the closures to go serve and services that are more accessible and more unnoticed. By bringing the issue to the attention of the convenient. I think that it is probably the role of the Government and right hon. and hon. Members, I intend Government to sit down with the bankers, as was to bring it to the attention of the big four banks, and a suggested by the hon. Member for Harrow West number of other banks. These large organisations have (Mr Thomas), and set out what should be required of a social duty to which they should attend, but it would banks. Not all the banks were bailed out with public be useful if the Government could kick things off with money as a result of the banking collapse, but all banks an initiative and call for a summit, as the hon. Gentleman have benefited from Government action—quantitative said. easing, for instance—and just about all banks are dependent When a bank has the last branch in town, it often or have depended on measures that the Government makes a pledge of some sort to keep it open, but those have brought forward. It is time to sit down and see pledges are often difficult to define; that creates a lot of what can be achieved to help these communities. uncertainty, which can be fuelled by such comments as those made last year by the British Bankers Association. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the It said: hon. Gentleman on bringing this matter to Westminster “Branches will remain open if they are being used. But if the Hall today. My constituency of Strangford has had two number of customers…coming into the branch falls, then the bank closures: the Ulster bank in Portaferry and the bank—like any other retail outlet—will need to look carefully at Northern bank in Balloo have closed. Two campaigns whether it is…viable to keep it open.” were fought, but not won. We did, however, win the Well, the bank in Presteigne was being used, but a campaign to save the Northern bank in Kircubbin, with different target was imposed on it, relating to the selling community support. Does the hon. Gentleman agree of financial products such as mortgages, pensions and that the impact of closures on elderly people is horrendous? loans. The population of Presteigne is rather stable; it If there are not banks close at hand, they may carry may have made use of those products in the past, but cash around with them, and many of us will be aware of it still expected services from the bank. However, the a large number of people who have been robbed as a bank has decided to withdraw from the community. result. Banks therefore have a responsibility to elderly people and to rural communities. Perhaps the Government could work together with the banks on that. Perhaps, Nic Dakin: Is it not true that banks are encouraging— somewhere along the way, banks need to carry a loss indeed, almost forcing—customers to go down the route leader, covering their losses in such areas through profits of internet and telephone banking, often against customers’ in other areas. wishes? That is having an impact on the footfall in branches such as those that the hon. Gentleman describes. These changes are being driven by the determinations Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that of producers, rather than customers, which is a great intervention. Yes, I believe that there may be a role shame. there. There is the American model of a shared bank, whereby one facility houses different banks. They share the costs and maintain a presence in the community. Roger Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who That may be a way forward; the Government could help raises an important point. Information provided to me with, or initiate, a pilot scheme of that type. I had indicates that two thirds of customers between the ages intended to suggest that later. of 25 and 45 will use internet banking facilities, while only a third of people over 65 have the aptitude to take advantage of such opportunities. Mr Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for supporting the idea of holding a summit with the banks to discuss branch closures. Does he not think that Simon Hart: That is one issue, but does my hon. having such a summit is all the more important given Friend agree that another is whether people have the that the Government’s attitude to bank branch closures broadband access in the first place to enable to make has arguably become more depressing since his previous use of these things? 199WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 200WH

Roger Williams: That is another point, and my hon. of older people. In addition, local industry and small Friend makes it very powerfully. Perhaps the Minister and medium-sized businesses rely on the banks. There is would like to address that problem, too. also the fact that communities are isolated and that I appreciate the coalition Government’s commitment many older people do not have their own transport. In to keeping open post offices, which provide important Blaenavon’s case, there is the added issue that the town outlets for financial products, but banks are still the is a world heritage site, with lots of tourists from across preferred option for many people, particularly when the world coming to visit, but there is no longer a bank. they need advice and support in difficult times. The issue is therefore of great concern. I have gone on a bit longer than I anticipated, and Today’s debate must concentrate not only on saying I am grateful for hon. Members’ interventions. The that the banks must be much more responsible in looking Government have a role to play. In the American model after rural areas, but on what can be done. The hon. of a shared banking outlet, many major banks come Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made some together to ensure that their facilities can be provided at suggestions, as have my hon. Friends. I want to make one point. The Government could have a role in ensuring one or two points, which I hope the Minister and my that pilots exploiting that approach are set up with their hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), backing. The town of Presteigne would certainly be who speaks for the Opposition, will refer to when they willing and anxious to take part in such a pilot. wind up. Clearly, the most important point is that if the bank 9.55 am goes, a cash point should remain, because it is hugely difficult to obtain money in a small town if the cash Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. point disappears. If possible, there should also be some Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) form of deposit facility so that people can deposit their on bringing this issue to the attention of the House. He money in a machine. has served his constituency with great sincerity for many years. When I was Welsh Secretary, he and I The issue of internet and telephone banking is also visited many parts of it, and I know he has raised this important. As the hon. Member for Brecon and issue because he feels deeply about it, particularly as far Radnorshire said, however, the number of people over as Presteigne is concerned. 65 who attempt to use such facilities is small. Clearly, there is a job of work to be done by the banks in trying, I want to talk about another bank closure. Again, it when they close, to train or teach their customers to use involves HSBC, but this time it is in my constituency—in the telephone and internet banking facilities that many Blaenavon, in my valley. Blaenavon, a Welsh mining other people use. I pressed HSBC to hold seminars in valley, has the characteristics of a rural area, in the Blaenavon to show people that. sense that it is geographically isolated, its population is about 5,000 or 6,000, and it is part of the Brecon Simon Hart: I am sorry to intervene so often. Does Beacons national park. It now has only one bank, the right hon. Gentleman agree that we might want HSBC, because the others have closed. cash points that do not charge people to take their own The decision to close the bank has caused enormous money out—in other words, not LINK cash points, difficulty and distress among the people of Blaenavon. which cost about £2.50 every time someone sticks their The town council and I have met the Assembly Member— card in? Lynne Neagle—and bank officials. Hundreds of people attended a public meeting; it is very unusual these days Paul Murphy: Indeed. That is very important; particularly for people to turn up to a public meeting to support for older people, being charged to take out money is an banks, but these people did. There has also been a large extra burden. petition. It therefore means a great deal to the people of The Post Office basic bank accounts are useful. People Blaenavon that the bank is about to close. may be able to carry out their transactions through the The hon. Gentleman referred to HSBC as the world’s post office. Credit unions, which were raised earlier, are local bank; I was recently attracted by a newspaper also important. However, the sharing of facilities between headline, “HSBC banks on going deeper into rural banks needs to be explored. Another intriguing issue is areas”, until I discovered that the newspaper concerned mobile banking. In Ogmore Vale in south Wales, for was the Shanghai Daily. The article, which was from example, HSBC and, I think, the Royal Bank of Scotland 2009, said: together initiated a mobile banking scheme for the area. “HSBC said…it has opened two more rural banks in China as It is like a mobile library, and it goes around villages it seeks to penetrate deeper into the rural financing industry in the and towns, providing facilities and the opportunity to country.” use the banks. It also said the bank It strikes me that the Government—both the United “is committed to bringing our global rural finance expertise into Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government—need China’s countryside to help develop a sustainable model of finance to be able to come up with imaginative ideas. When it is and to contribute to the local economy”. known that the last bank in a town in a rural area is So HSBC is opening banks in China and closing them going to disappear, there should be some sort of action in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. plan. Either the local authority or the Welsh or United I understand the point made by the hon. Member for Kingdom Government should be able to consider the Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon alternatives for the town, and the possibilities that I Hart), who said that it is perhaps hard to castigate the have outlined. Often people’s fear is the worst thing. last bank remaining in a town. Nevertheless, when it They need reassurance that some sort of facility can be has gone, the effect on local communities can be quite provided in the community, through the exercise of devastating because those communities often have lots more imagination. 201WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 202WH

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West them are closing, and, even more importantly, some of (Mr Thomas) referred to a summit. That is an important the services available in them are moving away. Transport suggestion; the representatives of banks and Government is another serious issue, because of the acquisition of could sit round a table and perhaps come up with ideas cars. There is not the same level of rural public transport for action plans for towns and large villages that are that there used to be. I do not mean any criticism of the losing their banking facilities. Welsh Government, but the grant for rural transport I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and has been substantially reduced this year. The retention Radnorshire once more on raising the issue, which is of transport links is strongly connected to the retention hugely important and affects all our constituents, crossing of banks; significant reductions are being made, with the party political boundaries of the House of Commons. the result that services will be reduced. I hope that the Minister will come up with ideas to Financial services are a key part of life today, whether alleviate the problems of our communities. those are provided by banks, building societies or post offices. People in rural areas, and perhaps in particular the elderly and the most vulnerable, who are not familiar 10.2 am with the internet or sometimes do not have access to Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I have been it—because clearly broadband is not as effective in rural a Member of the House for almost two years now, areas as it is in the areas now becoming used to it—do Mr Brady, and you have chaired a huge proportion of not have access to financial services. Yet the bank is the proceedings in which I have taken part. It has crucial. When the last bank closes that is a death knell always been a pleasure. in the village. We must do all we can to retain those services where it is possible. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on securing today’s debate. He represents a neighbouring constituency to mine, and Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is they are two of the most rural in Britain. One reason I making a powerful argument about local rural services. did not prepare a speech for today was that I knew that Shops are also suffering, because if cash points in I would only be repetitive. I could have filched the hon. villages are lost and people cannot get access to the Gentleman’s speech, and said pretty much the same, cash, they do not spend it locally. That has an impact on because our experiences are so similar. However, I want local shops and on tourism in rural areas. briefly to associate myself with the issue that he has raised, and with his remarks. All that I need to change is Glyn Davies: That is right. As we reduce spending his references to Presteigne—although I represented it power, every service goes. Each one affects the others. for eight years as a regional member in the National Assembly for Wales, so I know the town well. The point Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I just is that very few changes would need to be made in the want to highlight what has happened in Aldeburgh, speech to make it apply to my constituency and, I am where HSBC pulled out—its only communication with sure, rural constituencies across Britain. the wider community was a poster in the window. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and I Retailers responded by offering cashback. Does my have worked together for many years on the issues in hon. Friend agree that the subject in question is a very question, on the Development Board for Rural Wales, suitable one for the Office of Fair Trading to look into? and in other contexts. Nearly all that work would come After its study of oil supplies it is examining other under the general heading of the defence and promotion issues affecting rural communities; access to financial of rural services. The way in which society has moved in services could be its next topic. the past half century has put enormous pressure on rural services, and that is a huge threat. Protecting and Glyn Davies: I thank my hon. Friend for that sensible retaining those services has been incredibly difficult, suggestion. There have, indeed, been other suggestions and we shall not be able to retain and protect them all. from hon. Members, including one about a summit, However, that work has been a big part of my life, and which also seems sensible to me. I am sure that more of the hon. Gentleman’s life. will be made, and I look forward to the Ministers’s response to the debate, to find out where the Government One of the reasons I have become so engaged with are going with the issue. There is a responsibility on the the issue in question is that I decided as a young man Government to serve everyone in this country. They that I enjoyed living in the middle of Montgomeryshire have, rightly, worked closely with business and banks to and would never live anywhere else. I deeply love the ensure that money is available to business, for the creation place. All my fellow students from Llanfair Caereinion of employment. That is currently a huge Government high school left the area to find work—we did not have policy issue. any—and even at a young age I became very engaged in seeking to retain and develop our economy, as the key Access to services for our rural areas is also a huge to providing employment that would encourage people issue. It is not a new issue; it has been there all of my to stay. There has been huge pressure across rural life. The coalition Government have taken a serious and services, and the banks issue must be considered within responsible approach to post offices. We need the same that whole bracket. Rural schools close, because as discussion and pressure on our banks. If a summit is the families have fewer children there is pressure on them, answer, that is the way we should go. and many village schools are closing. That is still happening The responsibility rests with the banks. The current and will continue; but what we do will affect the rate of view of banks is very much influenced by the debate closure. The same is happening with hospital services. about bonuses and very high salaries. There is a view Increased specialisation in skills and treatments means among the poorest in our society that there is a lot of it is not possible to retain all rural hospitals. Some of money available in banks—I know that that is not 203WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 204WH

[Glyn Davies] donor in the country, donating some £52 million. Sue Jones, Barclays’ local person based in Rhyl, attends necessarily the case—so that when they see their banks every Rhyl in Bloom meeting. She bring 70 Barclays being closed or their banking hours being reduced for a personnel from all over the UK to help out in community relatively small saving, as is happening in Llanidloes initiatives. There are clearly some good banks. HSBC and Montgomery, they cannot understand it. The banks has received a kicking here today, but its local person, are disengaged from a major section of the community. James Smith, attends all our town centre forum meetings. The Government must ensure that the banks understand I wrote to the HSBC chief executive for the whole of that they have a responsibility not just to the bottom Europe, Brian Robertson, to tell him what a great line but to deliver services. employee he had. He then got on the phone to James Smith, saying how pleased he was to receive such a 10.11 am letter. Some banks take their social responsibility seriously; other banks need to do more. The Britannia building Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I want to carry society is now getting active in my local community in on where the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Rhyl. Davies) left off and talk about the public reputation of In the interests of transparency, the banks need to banks in the UK—in fact in the whole world. Banks advertise what they are doing. They need to tell us the today are not in a good place. Earlier, I mentioned the criteria for closing down rural banks. We need to know quote, “The time for remorse is now over”. The banker what is best practice and how we can push the worst who said that totally misjudged the mood of the nation. practice upwards towards best practice. Some banks Having been through the expenses scandal, we as MPs inform MPs of their branch closures. Do they inform recognise this situation. We know that we have to build the town council, the county council or the community bridges with the public, and the banks and the media council? How far in advance do they do that? Do they must do the same. Of all three sectors, the banks are produce the criteria for closures so that communities showing the least remorse and seem less anxious to can argue against them, or is it all done and dusted make good their reputation with the public. They must before the dialogue is started? look again at the balance between profit and social responsibility. Banks are about profit, but as they make My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West that profit from people and from communities, they (Mr Thomas) made the excellent suggestion of holding bear certain responsibilities, which we have not witnessed a summit with the banks. I hope that the Minister and their fulfilling since the banking crisis. They have the the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for opportunity to learn their lesson and to make amends Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), will hold such a summit with local communities, especially in rural areas. It and invite rural MPs from across the House. Actually, sticks in people’s guts when they hear about billions of why keep it to rural MPs? Perhaps all MPs who are pounds being set aside for bonuses while branches are experienced in bank closures should be invited. being closed. Such action does not sit well with the We need historical perspective: how many branches British public. Banks should perhaps take some of have been closed by each bank; what percentage are those bonuses and reinvest them in rural and poor they of the total number and were those branches in communities across the UK. rural, urban or poor communities? That will give us a The local presence of a bank in a high street or a picture and allow us to say to a bank, “Yes, we can hold village is very important. It is about making a commitment you up as best example and you, as worst example.” We to a community. In the past—I will not go too far need a ranking of banks. Which are the banks that have back—local bank managers were trusted pillars of the social responsibility and which are the ones that do not? community. They were down at the golf club, picking I am not sure whether there is an all-party parliamentary up the local knowledge. They knew who was a sound group on banking. If there is, I have been inspired to investment and who was not, so when they were sat join it after today’s debate. Perhaps it would have a role across from someone who wanted money, they were to play. Perhaps we should be tabling parliamentary able to give the appropriate advice. That cannot be done questions on the matter. Are such closures being recorded by proxy from a city 20 or 30 miles away, or from a town by Government? Part of this Government want a hands-off 10 or 15 miles away. Understanding the vibes of an area approach towards the private sector because they want and keeping a finger on its pulse needs to be done in the to let it get on with its business, but these are big issues community; local knowledge and local presence are affecting our communities. Access to finance can help very important and lead to sound lending. Banks were decide whether communities in rural or poor areas also involved in the wider community; they were in the flourish or die. I fully back that idea of a summit, and business groups and the town centre forums, using their hope that it is taken up by the Minister, the shadow expertise and knowledge to help local people. Minister, the all-party parliamentary group and MPs. There has been a lot of bank kicking today; I have What can be done with these closures? We can look done it a bit myself, but let me mention some examples at what the Labour Government did with the post of good social responsibility that I have come across offices; we had to close them in some rural communities over the years. About 10 years ago, I wrote to all the and it was a painful process. Can the private sector banks in my constituency and said, “What is your learn from the public sector? In our closure programme, corporate responsibility agenda? What do you give back we looked at where a post office was and where the next to the community?” I had an excellent response from one was. We studied the radius around the post office Barclays’ Wendy O’Raheilly, who was based in Cardiff. under threat. Everything was done mathematically and She said that she would drive 200 miles there and systematically. Should the banking sector get together 200 miles back to tell me about it. She told me that at and co-operate? They could cut their costs if they said, that time, Barclays was the second biggest corporate “We won’t close a bank here if you don’t close a 205WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 206WH bank there.” Is there synergy to be had among the Chris Ruane: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving banks in the banking sector? Is there enough co-operation? way, especially as I had babbled on for 10 minutes I understand that it is difficult because they are all before him. Regarding the loss of those facilities—the after the same pot; they are all after profit. If they have pubs, schools, post offices, banks and petrol stations—within social responsibility, they should consider more rural communities, does he think that there is an onus co-operation. on those communities to accept more housing and not to lump all future housing developments in urban areas? Mobile banks have been mentioned today. We discussed I represent an urban area and a rural area, and as we and implemented such a strategy when we closed the look at housing development over the next 10 years, the post offices. We had post office mobile vans going feeling is that all the houses should go to the urban around the country. Could there be any co-operation areas to preserve our rural areas. But each community between the post office mobile vans and mobile banks? should expect to have a 10% increase in housing, with Such a scheme will cost money, but it might be a sound social housing, so that there is mixed tenureship, and investment for the banks, not only economically but family housing, so that communities can keep the schools, socially, because their reputation would improve. pubs and post offices open, because people are living in Is there room and opportunity for the banks to them. co-operate with the credit unions, which have already been mentioned in this debate? If banks are pulling out Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to engage of an area, could they co-operate with credit unions—again, in a debate about affordable housing and rural areas, giving them a bit of a subsidy—to move into the areas and I am not sure that the Chairman would forgive us if that they are moving out of? Is more co-operation we were to do so this late in the day. Perhaps we can possible with static post offices, rather than just with have that conversation over a cup of tea after the mobile post offices? Money is being collected and deposited debate, if he does not mind my putting it that way. in those post offices. Are there any synergies between In an earlier intervention, I mentioned the irritation the banks and the post office network? that I experience at being charged exorbitant sums to There have been a lot of good suggestions today from take my own money out of certain cash machines, but Members of all parties; I think that the debate has been there is another element to the availability of cash that I consensual and further progress can be made; and I did not refer to: cash-in as opposed to cash-out. The thank the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) may (Roger Williams) for securing this debate, which has have mentioned this point already, but rural areas survive— been well attended. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman took survive a lot, in the case of my constituency of Carmarthen lots of interventions; he was very generous in doing so, West and South Pembrokeshire—on tourism-related especially with me. And some good has come of the events and tourism-related industries, which often involve debate. people who carry substantial amounts of cash. When there is a fundraising event in a local area, or indeed a busy weekend in general, the need to get any cash that is 10.20 am made into somewhere that is reasonably safe reasonably Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) quickly goes to the heart of the social responsibility (Con): Like my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire that the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) (Glyn Davies), I had not intended to contribute to this referred to. We must bear in mind that there is a proper debate, but it has thrown up many useful points and I need—not just a desire to be treated differently—to get want to expand on just one of them: the notion of a that money into places where it is safe, as soon as it is summit on banking closures. I hope that the Minister possible to do so. might be able to respond favourably in that regard. On the topic of a summit, as yet no one has mentioned A number of hon. Members have mentioned the the requirement for banks in the rural areas that we are social impact of bank closures in their areas. However, talking about to address—again and again—lending. as part of any banking summit, should we not go down We all know, and indeed we have heard today, that there the road that my hon. Friend has hinted at and contextualise are very responsible staff and managers of local banks, the issue and consider the impact on rural communities but they have their hands, feet and everything else of the closures of pubs, petrol stations—an issue that bound by central office lending guidelines. To me, it is no one has mentioned so far, but that has a profound one thing to debate the availability of banks on the high effect—post offices, as we have just heard, and schools, street for our rural communities, but let us also get alongside the closure of banks and other services? I say those banks lending. I suspect that the guidelines for that because in the past there was such a thing as the such lending no longer lie with the bank manager in rural advocate. The Minister will be familiar with the Narberth, Whitland, St Clears or wherever it might be. I rural advocate, whose job was to rural-proof Government have here an e-mail from NatWest that is about the decisions so that, where there might be a disproportionate closure of the NatWest branch at Whitland in my area, impact on rural areas, that factor would be taken into but it comes kindly from the Royal Bank of Scotland at account. I fully understand that there was a need to 280 Bishopsgate, which I suspect is where most of the reorganise things, if I can put it that way, within the decisions are made with regard to rural banking. Therefore, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I say to the Minister that if we are to have a banking which I think was the Department that the rural advocate summit, let us also deal with lending to some of the was responsible to, although they might even have been small and medium-sized enterprises in rural areas. responsible to No. 10. However, that does not mean I also want to talk about high street prosperity. We that the role that the rural advocate undertook is not as had a debate in the main Chamber the other day about important today as it was in the past. the Portas report, the Government’s warm recognition 207WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 208WH

[Simon Hart] Alliance briefing nicely laid out the fact that access to money and finance in rural areas has never been more of its recommendations and how we can regenerate one acutely limited. It said: or two of our ailing high streets as a consequence of the “20 per cent of the population live and work in rural areas and advice that the Government has received from Mary yet only 12 per cent of bank branches and 10 per cent of cash Portas. Of course, within all that discussion, there is a machines are located there.” need for a vibrant high street banking facility. Such a What we are seeing is a population shift towards rural facility is one of the vital pieces of the economic jigsaw communities but at the same time a hollowing-out of in our rural market towns, and no jigsaw works if a vital services within rural areas. The briefing continues: piece is missing. So we cannot accept the Portas report “Around 200,000 people living in rural England do not have and then say, “But not banking.” We have to accept access to a bank account of any kind. Even before any further high street banking as part of that package, and as I bank closures, more than 930,000 households in rural areas live have already said, I hope that—as part of the proposed below the Government’s official poverty line and as many as banking summit or even perhaps as part of the Minister’s 300,000 people living in the countryside do not have bank accounts.” summing-up of this debate—reference can be made to There is a broad issue about services in rural communities that issue. generally and a specific issue about the role of banking Sharing facilities was mentioned earlier by hon. Members in our society. There is a challenge for the Government from all parties, and it is an extremely helpful development. in terms of how they can stand up for Britain’s small Mobile facilities have worked in one or two rural areas, and medium-sized enterprises. Although those issues as far as post offices are concerned. Having referred to are not new, they are becoming more serious, as has the e-mail that I received from NatWest, I must say that been stated in several contributions to the debate. A NatWest has been helpful in our area by variety of cogent points were made by Members, to “working closely with the Post Office to make changes to its IT which I will refer. systems to enable customers to use the Post Office branch network”, The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire laid as its e-mail sets out. That is a positive development in out the importance of exploring the idea of community terms of shared working, which I commend NatWest banks. I look forward to the Government’s response. bank for making. The Government must take responsibility for co-ordinating Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk and pressing the banks to deliver their public service Coastal (Dr Coffey) made the point about a possible responsibilities. He also laid out the potential value that investigation into rural bank closures by the Office of there might be in the role of shared banks, which we Fair Trading. It would be helpful if the Minister leaned want to see explored in a lot more detail. My right hon. in the direction of working with the Welsh Assembly Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) expressed Government—or the Welsh Government, as they now in graphic detail the devastating impact of the closure like to be called—with regard to making a proper team of the HSBC bank in Blaenavon, which affects small effort to address the impositions put upon rural businesses, the elderly and the community. A cash point communities as a consequence not only of bank closures is needed there, even if the bank disappears. That point but other closures of facilities. Rural communities do was also made by other hon. Members. not want special treatment, but they want to be able to The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire expressed function on equal terms with the rest of the UK. the importance of supporting local businesses and how their presence retains young talent within our rural 10.27 am communities. A difficulty occurs when young people go away to university and do not come back to their own Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Thank you very communities, resulting in a hollowing-out of talent in much, Mr Brady, for allowing me to speak. Unlike the local rural areas. He described how it is often a death hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), I knell for village and community life when a bank closes. believe that this is the first time that I have had the That is an important point. pleasure of attending a debate that you are chairing, but My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West my excitement is none the less for that. I have obviously (Mr Thomas) captured the mood of the debate with his not been in the right place before. call for a summit of the major banks and for the This has been a good and important debate, and Government to get a summit together. We have seen the there have been some really important contributions. I NHS summit this week. Perhaps the next summit will congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire include invitations to the people who do not agree with (Roger Williams) on securing another Westminster Hall the Government. Notwithstanding that, his idea was debate on rural bank closures. The issue is just as seized upon by other hon. Members as having merit. He relevant and urgent—if not more so—than it was when spoke about the impact of the last bank closing in north he secured a debate on it back in March 2011. Harrow in his constituency. He said that the summit The importance of this issue is shown in part by the should call for a commitment by the major banks to number of different organisations that contacted me in stick to the principles of the last bank agreement, so advance of it to express their views on the problems that that when we are down to the final bank in a constituency, rural bank closures are causing their membership and they stick to the commitment to retain it as a public their areas of interest. Those organisations include the service. Forum of Private Business, the Campaign for Community My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd Banking Services, the Post Bank Coalition, the Federation (Chris Ruane) supported the call for a summit. He of Small Businesses and the Countryside Alliance. As I asked for an analysis of the number of bank closures to say, they all contacted me to express the difficulties that ensure that we have important information. It is vital this issue was causing their members. The Countryside for banks to raise their reputation and standing. They 209WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 210WH can have an impact on our broader community and under more pressure than they would if another bank economy. We need to sense that we are all in it together closed. So the suggestion made by the Minister in and that banks realise and recognise their responsibilities. March 2011 that increased competition in the mainstream The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South banking sector would be a solution is entirely disingenuous. Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) also supported the call for It is an important issue to do with some of the other a summit. He said that it needs to be expanded and inadequacies in our banking environment, but once we should not just be about rural banking closures. He get to the last bank in town, the decision about keeping wants it to hold banks to account for their failure to it open is often one in which commercial considerations lend to small businesses, and I would entirely support overtake the public service considerations, so the idea that. He also made the point that this is not just about that an increase in competition will lead to an increase the banks that go last, because they are the ones that in the number of banks staying open in such areas is an stayed longest. We should also be looking at the banks unlikely one. that go before. We should recognise that banks have Banks are closing because banks have over many business decisions to make every day, but when they years been engaged in a long-term process of centralisation become the last bank in the community, there is also the and cost reduction, and small local branches simply do public service issue. When members of the community not sell enough financial services products to keep them can access shared banking services and tolerate only open. Communities that have invested in a bank, borrowed one bank in their village—in the town in the case of from a bank and been customers in that bank for many Blaenavon—it has a dramatic effect when that last one years often find that their loyalty is not returned when goes. the branch is no longer commercially successful. So this The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr is an issue of equality for people on low incomes, and it (Jonathan Edwards) talked about the impact on small is an issue about how we support our elderly and businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe disabled people, as well as how we support our small (Nic Dakin) mentioned the fact that the bank is often businesses. There is a greater role than ever before for a key pillar of the community. That leads me to the debt advice. The advice sector is hollowing out and broader issue of rural services. Local banks and post centralising in the face of cuts to the voluntary and offices are the lifeblood of a community in rural areas. local government sectors. That could push impoverished They impact on everything, from people’s sense of people towards payday loans and illegal loan sharks, as place and community to the capacity of small businesses well as reducing the access to quality financial advice to be run there, offering local employment prospects. for elderly and disabled people who are not able to They impact on tourism in some rural areas. We are travel 10 or 15 miles to the nearest bank. seeing an increase in the number of people living in There must be a greater role within our banking rural communities, yet a retraction in the services actually sector for credit unions and mutuals, and I am interested provided. That then has an impact on the ability of to know what more the Government can do to promote elderly and disabled people to engage in society in the them. Alongside the failure on rural commitments, as way that we would expect—something that people who the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr have easier access to transport or who live in urban said, is a failure on access to finance for small and communities take for granted. medium-sized enterprises. That is recognised right across The coalition agreement promised a post office bank. our business community. One of the biggest single I am sorry that the Government have decided to renege drags on our economic recovery is the failure to make on that promise. It was an idea floated by the previous finance accessible to small businesses, owing to the Government. It was in the Labour party manifesto. We banking sector’s retrenchment and the failure of the thought that it had been taken up by the new Project Merlin agreement, particularly for small businesses. Administration when it was mentioned in the coalition The Government need to do a great deal more on that. agreement. The idea for a post office bank, in which We all recognise that if we are to have a private post office facilities were used for some basic financial sector-led recovery, SMEs will play a significant role in services, especially in rural areas, has, to the disappointment delivering growth within our economy. Members will of many organisations, apparently been ditched. have been as shocked as I was to learn the extent of the Alongside the importance of rural services is the current Government’s failure in a YouGov poll yesterday, issue of what we expect from banks. Banks are both showing that a quarter of small business owners expect businesses and public services. When the banking crisis to close within the next two years. struck, the taxpayer provided support in a way that we At a time like this, when small businesses are under have not done with numerous other industries. Many the cosh more than ever, we must recognise the banking other industries, businesses and large firms have been sector’s role in supporting those businesses. Often, such allowed to go to the wall, but the banks were saved by businesses deal in cash and need daily access to bank the taxpayer, because we recognised the importance of services. There are clearly security implications for small the banking sector to our communities and, of course, businesses that cannot cash in their takings daily, as to the business community. We recognised the possible well as efficiency implications. A small business owner impact on our communities. That role is acknowledged who must close early to drive 10 or 15 miles to take their by the banks. It is one of the reasons why the last bank money to the nearest bank will make less profit. At a in town commitment is so important. time when small businesses need all the help that they Evidence from the coalition of community banking can get, the Government and the banking sector should services has shown the gradual reduction in rural banking be doing a whole lot more. Hon. Members mentioned services and the extent to which the number of dual the importance of the local business relationship between bank communities has reduced, often because banks do banks and their business customers as well as their not want to be the last bank in town and then come individual customers. 211WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 212WH

[Toby Perkins] With regard to access to bank accounts, the Government are committed to improving access to financial services, I should like to hear the Minister’s comments on the as I shall explain, and in particular to bank accounts. It proposal made today for a summit. I should also like to has been amply demonstrated that having a bank account hear what more can be done to take forward the inter-bank is an essential aspect of modern life and that being able agency agreement model, which has been important in to access counter services at a branch while interacting enabling businesses to share bank branch services. What face to face with staff is a service valued not only by does she think of today’s proposal by the Forum of individuals but by businesses. I have also heard the Private Business that banks should share premises? points made today about its tourism value. However, I This debate involves the broad issue of services in must point out that decisions whether and where to rural communities, the specific role of banking in our maintain specific branches are commercial decisions society and a challenge to the Government to stand up and, as such, for the financial institutions in question. for Britain’s small businesses. We recognise that rural The Government do not intervene in such decisions, as communities exist in a variety of ways, but if they are to a matter of principle. be sustainable communities and not just places where All banking service providers must balance customer people live, services are crucial. That is why this debate interests, market competition and other commercial is so important. I welcome the contributions made by factors when considering their strategy. I note the call all Members and look forward to learning more about by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) what the Government will do to address this serious for banks to balance social responsibility with those issue. factors, but I will say at the outset that the Government have been clear about the need for a change in bonus culture and for banks to contribute to the real economy, 10.43 am support small and medium-sized enterprises throughout The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe the UK and lend to families. The bottom line of today’s Smith): I hope you will excuse my slightly unorthodox debate is that banks have customers, and it is clear that speaking style, Mr Brady, due to a broken foot. I thank they must treat them fairly in taking decisions about the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger them. Williams) and his colleagues, who are now giggling in With that in mind, I will set out briefly the regulations the back row. I also thank the other Members who have that apply. Banks’ and building societies’ treatment of contributed to this important debate. It follows the their customers is currently governed by the Financial interesting and useful debate secured last year by the Services Authority in its “Banking Conduct of Business hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, to which my Sourcebook”, which includes a general requirement for hon. Friend the Financial Secretary responded. He is in firms to provide a prompt, efficient and fair service to Committee today, considering the Financial Services all their customers. The guidance agreed by the industry Bill. I am sure that he will read today’s Hansard with and the FSA sets out expectations of how banks should deep interest and mull over the calls for a summit and live up to that code of conduct and specific guidelines the suggestions about with whom he should work if he for how banks should behave when considering closing is minded to hold one. I recognise the concerns expressed a branch. capably by all hon. Members about the impact of past The guidance states that if a firm plans to close and planned branch closures by high street banks in or move a branch, customers should be notified at least their constituencies and about the availability of banking 12 weeks beforehand and told how the firm will continue services in rural areas more generally. to provide retail banking services. That includes providing micro-enterprise customers with information on any Chris Ruane: On the issue of a banking summit, will existing inter-bank agency agreements. A notice should the Minister consider calling it herself, in co-operation be placed in the branch, and consideration should be with the shadow Minister, or is it something that she given to other local advertising and notification of local will leave to Back Benchers? councils and community groups. The bank should provide information on alternative facilities offered by the firm Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that in the locality, including its nearest alternative branch I shall have to leave that to the consideration of my and nearest free ATM, as well as other channels through colleague at the Treasury, whose portfolio it more properly which banking services are provided. is. However, as I said, I am sure that during a slow My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West moment in Committee upstairs, he will read today’s and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) mentioned free Hansard and take the hon. Gentleman’s views deeply ATMs. I believe that the LINK network, of which, I into account. note, he is perhaps no great fan, runs a phone line that The Government recognise that people in rural areas customers can use to propose sites for new free-of-charge experience much the same financial challenges as people cash machines. Perhaps he might encourage his constituents living in towns and cities, even Harrow. However, living to take that up. in a rural area can bring additional challenges apart The guidance also requires that customers be notified from the obvious examples of bank closures. Exclusion at least 12 weeks in advance of significant alterations to from financial services can be less visible in rural areas counter services or opening hours. On the back of those than in urban areas. My hon. Friend the Member for points, first, such arrangements clearly help customers Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) and others have make alternative arrangements to meet their banking highlighted a range of rural challenges. I have some needs. Secondly, they enable options to be considered, understanding of them myself, having grown up in the such as the action plans for which the right hon. Member fens in rural Norfolk. My first bank account was in a for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) called. Thirdly, to use an branch in a market town. example that we heard today, I am pleased that people 213WH Rural Bank Closures21 FEBRUARY 2012 Rural Bank Closures 214WH in Suffolk, Coastal could respond in that way. When that they need. We are strongly committed to promoting people see a notice in branch buildings, some are clearly a diverse financial services sector that serves the needs able to respond. Fourthly, however, that does not change of the wider economy, which is the one of themes of the end fact that a branch may still be withdrawn. today’s debate. Let us move on and note what banks offer in addition To start with, we need to encourage access to savings to their face-to-face services. Several Members have products. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury made the point today that banks offer services by announced last week that the Government have launched telephone and by internet. My hon. Friend the Member a steering group to design a range of simple financial for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire raised products, which will help new participants enter financial the significant issue of broadband, which I am sure is markets to provide straightforward and easy-to-understand on everyone’s minds. The Government have laid out products. I am sure that all hon. Members present significant plans to improve and complete broadband today will welcome that. for rural areas. I could go into that more, but I suspect I reiterate that we want the industry to take a lead in that that is a different debate and that you, Mr Brady, designing simple products, because we want the products will not allow me to speak on it. I reassure Members to be viable commercial propositions for customers that that the Government understand that point and are will stand the test of time. There is an opportunity for acting on it. industry to innovate properly, which may include mobile It is fair to say that the channels I have talked about or shared services, and to develop a range of simple are not always appropriate for every customer and every products that—again we return to the key point—meet service. As hon. Members have noted, having access to their customers’ needs. a branch with face-to-face services is particularly important for older people and for small businesses that may Toby Perkins: Will the Minister give way? require cash facilities to trade. However, the fact is that phone and online channels are increasingly popular, Miss Smith: I am about to respond to the hon. and the provision of such services is expanding and Gentleman’s points, so if he will allow me to continue diversifying rapidly, giving customers a range of choices with my comments, I will do so later. as to how they manage their affairs. I think we have all acknowledged in today’s debate It is important to note that many bank account that the needs for access to finance go far wider than providers have an arrangement for customers to access banks and building societies. The Government strongly their accounts via post office counters, which I am glad believe that credit unions can act as alternatives to that hon. Members have noted throughout today’s debate. banks and building societies in providing affordable I know that Members will welcome the Government’s financial services to people who may not otherwise be stance on post offices, notably making clear commitments able to access them. The Government are providing regarding the future of the network—that there will be additional support to such institutions through the no further closure programmes and that we will maintain Department for Work and Pensions, which I know hon. a network of at least 11,500 branches and ensure that Members will welcome. The results of some of its specific access provisions for rural areas are included. I feasibility studies will be published in due course. That understand that 80% of customers now have the possibility forms just one part of the Government’s efforts to of withdrawing or depositing funds or checking their promote a diverse and competitive financial services balance at a post office branch. sector, on which I am sure the hon. Member for Chesterfield Hon. Members raised shared branching, which is (Toby Perkins) will have something to say. where several banking providers pool their services in some way. That is an interesting idea that clearly requires Toby Perkins: I am delighted to hear that there is an a high degree of commercial collaboration. I return to interest in credit unions, and the Minister is absolutely my point that the best people to judge that are the right to say that they can play an important part. banks themselves, and I would certainly encourage them Regarding the substantive issues that have been raised to consider that idea and also mobile banking, which today, Members will be forgiven for thinking that they was also raised in today’s debate. are walking away from the debate with little sense that the Government are doing much about the issue. What Roger Williams: I can understand why the Minister we are hearing is that such decisions are for the banking points out that the Government should not micro-manage sector. Regarding the main thrust of the debate, which banks, but surely, the piloting of an innovative proposal is about customer service and public service responsibilities such as shared banking is something that the Government of the bank, I think Members will leave with the sense could actively introduce? that there is little pressure from the Government to get banks to face up to their responsibility and recognise Miss Smith: I am afraid that that would not be the broader economic impact if we do not sort the issue something that the Government could introduce, as the out. I think we need to see a far greater sense of urgency Government do not run banks. Regarding the banks in and action from the Government on the issue. which the Government are the majority shareholder, they are run at arm’s length, as all hon. Members know, Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman will in that case be but I hope that my words will serve as a small measure pleased to hear me move straight on to the next section of encouragement. It is a positive idea that could and of my speech, which deals exactly with what the should be looked at by banks themselves. Government are doing this very day in Committee: Regarding what the Government are doing to promote acting on the part of the financial system for which they access to financial services, we are taking a number of have responsibility, which is to talk about financial important actions to help consumers access the services conduct and competition in financial services. The key 215WH Rural Bank Closures 21 FEBRUARY 2012 216WH

[Miss Chloe Smith] Gangmasters Licensing Authority to the hon. Gentleman’s question is in his own words. There are two things at stake: customer service and 10.59 am public service. Banks and commercial institutions must Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is a great be responsible for customer service, and I will now turn pleasure to have secured this Westminster Hall debate to some aspects for which the Government can reasonably under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I am delighted to be said to be responsible. have been given time by the House to hold this timely It is essential that consumers are able to apply competitive debate on a very important authority. pressure and to understand where they can hold their I start by paying tribute to a number of hon. Members bank to account and how the broader market operates. who have done so much in this area. First, I pay great Customers should be able to vote with their feet and to tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and switch their custom to banks that provide the best Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), whose 2004 private products for them, including access to a branch. The Member’s Bill commenced the legislative process that Government are therefore committed to fostering diversity created the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. I also and promoting competition in the banking sector. To pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham that end, the Government have accepted in principle the (Ian Lucas), who was the Minister responsible for taking competition recommendations of the Independent the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 through the Commission on Banking, which was mentioned earlier House of Commons, and to my hon. Friend the Member in the debate. The Government will now consider the for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who has been proposals in more detail. a champion of vulnerable workers, and the Gangmasters In line with those recommendations, I am pleased to Licensing Authority in its various guises, for many note that the banking industry has already made some years before becoming an MP. commitments, such as introducing a faster and safer It is also appropriate to pay tribute to the trade union switching service to ensure that customers can switch movement, which has championed the cause of vulnerable within seven days. Along with the more enhanced workers for many decades and has been a stalwart transparency measures that are already being implemented defender of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority when in the personal current account market, including making it has been attacked by this Government. I should also charges clearer and providing annual statements of pay tribute to everyone who works in the authority for charges to each customer, the new service will make it doing the incredibly challenging and difficult job of easier for customers to exercise what they have to do, making sure that workers are not exposed to exploitation. which is vote with their feet if they feel that their bank is I should remind hon. Members why the Gangmasters not meeting their needs. Licensing Authority was created in the first place. It was To ensure that consumers are adequately protected in created as a result of tragedy: the drowning of 23 cockle accessing financial services, the Government are also pickers in Morecambe bay in 2004. The deaths of the reforming the regulation of financial services. I remind Chinese cockle pickers put back into use a word that the House that as part of the Financial Services Bill had almost been forgotten in British public life since the that is being discussed in Committee as we speak, the 1960s: “gangmaster.” A Chinese man who had organised Government are creating a new and dedicated conduct the group was described as their gangmaster and was of business regulator, the financial conduct authority. later found guilty of the manslaughter of 21 of those Also, the Office of Fair Trading has already committed who had drowned. The incident led to a wider debate to reviewing the personal current account market in about those who organise casual workers and sometimes 2012, about which I hope my hon. Friend the Member exploit them. It resulted in the creation of the Gangmasters for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) will read later. Licensing Authority to regulate that form of labour. It is clear that customer service is at stake here, and The new legislation was groundbreaking, as it was there is public interest in how rural communities can widely assumed that working gangs and gangmasters best be supported. However, it is also clear that the issue had disappeared. In agriculture, European migrant labour spans a substantial regulatory and non-regulatory agenda, has generally moved from areas with smaller farms to and the Government are pursuing that. The landscape places where prices and wages are higher. That movement is changing rapidly, just as customers’ needs are changing, created the gang system, particularly in the eastern and the financial services sector will need to change to counties of England, where accommodation for permanent take account of that. It is vital that the sector continues farm workers is scarce and there is high demand for to meet the needs of ordinary consumers, including seasonal labour. So the gangmaster was alive and well, those who prefer to access banking services via a branch. had been exposed through tragedy, and was often linked Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Brecon and with organised criminal activity. Radnorshire for his continued work on the issue. Clearly, New versions of the old exploitation developed over we all share appreciation of that. I would also like to time, encouraged by the relentless pressure to cut food thank all the others who have contributed today. The production costs. The new licensing authorities are Treasury will continue to take the issue into account attempting to prevent exploitation, but the poverty of as it pursues the wider financial inclusion agenda. some countries compared with Britain will sustain such a system in the future. Once it was Irish migrants; now they might be Latvians or, as we saw with the cockle pickers, Chinese. What continues is the movement of migrant agricultural labour and the abuse-prone gangs that have historically always been associated with such labour. 217WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 218WH

Once the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I congratulate established, it was supported by a coalition of national my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does not the retailers, food industry representatives, labour providers GLA’s success mean that the problem is being moved and trade unions. Crucially, there was cross-party support across to the construction industry? A major problem is in this place for the regulation of those who supply that there is no regulation in the construction industry labour in the areas of agriculture, forestry, horticulture, to match the regulation that the GLA provides for other shellfish gathering, food processing and packaging. industries. Therefore, there is a good argument to say However, we are not simply talking about a piece of that the GLA should be expanded to cover the construction employment legislation that the Government would industry. That would help to deal with the industry that have people believe is a burden on business. This is a has the highest rate of accidents in the UK. life-saving body that safeguards the welfare of workers, while regulating the providers of such workers and Ian Murray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for protecting some of the most vulnerable workers from raising that point. He has a private Member’s Bill on exploitation, abuse and modern-day slavery. extending the GLA’s remit to construction workers, but As stated in many independent reports—I shall mention because it is low down on the Order Paper, it will never just a few—the GLA has been a huge success. Independent be passed. I hope that the Minister will say in his evaluations conducted by Sheffield and Liverpool response whether the Department for Environment, universities have confirmed the effectiveness of GLA Food and Rural Affairs will examine the possibility of enforcement. In a survey of licensed gangmasters in extending the GLA to cover other areas. The forestry 2008, eight out of 10 respondents were in favour of and agricultural industries are becoming more regulated, licensing; seven out of 10 felt that the GLA was doing a gangmasters are becoming licensed, and the GLA has good job; and only 18% described their contact with the been successful, but there has been a migration of GLA as burdensome. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation exploited labour into other parts of industry. I may has had a major research programme on forced labour mention that later. for several years, and much of its work has touched on the GLA and the role it plays. What it says sums up the Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The hon. Gentleman GLA: is making a very good case. I was co-sponsor of the “To put our position simply, we are big supporters of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Bill 2004 with the hon. Member GLA. All of our research and contacts with businesses, employers, for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), unions, campaigners—everyone—suggests they are doing a vital who should be congratulated. Would he add to the job. They are a hugely effective tool in preventing contemporary slavery. Indeed, there is a case for expanding their remit out with many benefits he has listed as having resulted from the the sectors they currently regulate.” GLA’s introduction those relating to farmers? They feel much more reassured that they are dealing with gangmasters The Equality and Human Rights Commission’s inquiry on a sound basis. Also, the many legitimate gangmaster into human trafficking in Scotland commented that: operations in existence know that the GLA is driving “Apart from the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA), the the illegal trade out of business altogether. Inquiry did not identify evidence of regulators linking anti-trafficking efforts with their work”. Crucially, the Hampton report, which looked at reducing Ian Murray: I am grateful for that intervention and I regulatory burdens on business, and which led to an congratulate the hon. Gentleman on co-sponsoring the inspection programme covering all regulators, strongly 2004 Bill. The point he makes is critical. This is not just endorsed the GLA’s approach, concluding that: about protecting vulnerable and exploited workers; it is “The GLA’s impact in improving working conditions for some about cleaning up supply chains. That feeds right into vulnerable workers has been impressive, particularly in view of its the argument about good business being rewarded for relatively small size.” doing good things, and the need to support initiatives That report was endorsed by the Institute for Human that get rid of businesses doing bad things. It is crucial Rights and Business, the Ethical Trading Initiative, to recognise that it is good for good businesses to be anti-slavery organisations, the Association of Labour involved in initiatives such as the Gangmasters Licensing Providers, the Ecumenical Council for Corporate Authority. That emphasises the point made by my hon. Responsibility and, of course, Oxfam. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) about potentially extending the GLA to other areas, Since its inception, the GLA has protected workers and clearing up the supply chains to which the hon. by ensuring that they receive their pay and holiday Member for St Ives (Andrew George) referred. rights, and that they work in a healthy and safe environment. Inspectors also check that vulnerable workers are not The GLA has discovered a number of cases where housed in substandard conditions while being charged trafficking for financial benefit, linked directly or indirectly excessive rents. The GLA has played a central role in to labour exploitation, is to the fore. Some of the reducing human trafficking in the UK. The authority activity appears to have direct links to the targeting of also helps to recover unpaid tax and national insurance, vulnerable people in homeless refuges in the host country, thereby increasing revenues for the Exchequer. and to persons of interest to the police in their host According to the GLA’s annual report last year, country. Workers are sometimes left in a no man’s land: 845 cases of worker exploitation were identified. The they have no means of supporting themselves in the financial cost of that exploitation amounted to £2.5 million. UK, but are unable or unwilling to go home. They are Some 91% of the GLA’s intelligence-driven operations exploited; to work in a promised land, they pay up-front identified serious cases of non-compliance. Some 36 cases fees that they are never likely to be able to repay. of unlicensed activity were uncovered, and 33 licences I have some examples that give the issues a human were revoked. There were also 12 successful criminal face. The GLA has discovered workers living in squalid prosecutions. accommodation; the rent is often high—above the market 219WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 220WH

[Ian Murray] The Minister needs to be crystal clear that there will be no watering down of the GLA and its powers. This is rate—and deducted at source. One person described not about counting paper clips, but saving lives, preventing 12 workers living in a caravan with no water, sanitation, exploitation, promoting clean supply chains, exposing lighting, heating or cooking facilities. Another talked organised criminal activity and undermining human about 30 workers who lived in a structurally dangerous trafficking—there could be no greater cause. The GLA two-bedroom house; they were subject to summary is especially important in difficult economic times when eviction by men wielding baseball bats if they complained. labour supply exceeds demand and the pressures on Transport problems were an issue. Those problems work increase. included unreasonable wage deductions for transport, and unsafe vehicles. The GLA uncovered the case of a Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend worker who lost a leg when an unroadworthy van was agree that there is a frightening aspect to the rhetoric we involved in an accident. The gangmaster’s licence was hear from the Government about health and safety, and revoked, and he could no longer provide farm labourers, health and safety legislation in particular? Will he ask but two weeks later he was back in business, supplying the Minister to give an assurance that the Government builders’ labourers. That highlights the point made by believe that health and safety legislation is necessary to my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian. protect individuals at work? Some of the rhetoric on An eastern European worker discovered on a farm in this issue, particularly from the Prime Minister, is deeply Cornwall was promised a job in Scotland, but was then worrying. sold to another gangmaster. Having worked all week for £5, they were told that they owed the gangmaster £6.17 Ian Murray: The Minister has heard that challenge in costs, which of course they did not have. They were on health and safety. The red tape challenge website, obliged to keep working to pay the debt, which continued which I am sure every hon. Member has dipped into to accrue, resulting in bonded labour. and had a look at, is wide-ranging. The first line of Those are just some of the human examples of what every category, including the Equality Act 2010 and happens in an unregulated trade, but the GLA is identifying health and safety legislation, poses the question: “Should exploited workers in contemporary slavery and is able this be scrapped?”. I appreciate that it is a consultation, to do something about it. The question that people will and that the Government are looking for ideas and ask is: are UK companies involved? The Joseph Rowntree views on the current make-up of regulation, but there is Foundation found that some, possibly many, UK-based no greater challenge than maintaining health and safety companies rely on supply chains that involve the use of regulations to protect workers whose lives or safety may slave labour, both in the UK and abroad. The complex be at risk. I hope the Minister will tell us categorically chains of subcontracting through a variety of labour that some of the questions in the red tape challenge are agency networks, both in the UK and abroad, mean challenges to seek answers, rather than an overall strategy that many companies are unaware of, or can deny to diminish workers’rights and health and safety regulation. knowledge of, the conditions under which their goods To date, the Government have been rhetorical about are produced. the dilution of workers’ rights, but a statutory instrument The UK supply chain is inherently based on a low-cost, changing the unfair dismissal period has been laid labour-intensive business model. The GLA identified before Parliament and will come into effect in the next that price pressures from competition have led to a few weeks. There have been leaked reports from No. 10 culture where gangmasters and labour users will exploit Downing street about making it easier to fire, rather the most vulnerable link in the chain—the worker—to than hire, people. There is anti-regulation sentiment protect their profits. They will often accept a charge rate and rhetoric coming out of the Department for Business, that, realistically, does not allow the labour provider to Innovation and Skills, with its “one in, one out” policy meet legal requirements. Workers are being paid below on regulation. There is real concern that some of the the national minimum wage so that labour providers are enforcement actions that are critical for protecting vulnerable able to make a meagre profit by charging an unrealistically workers and good businesses through such authorities low amount. as the GLA are being challenged. The GLA has sought to tackle this insidious problem The Macdonald report suggested an end to gangmaster by developing a protocol with supermarkets and licensing completely, and a move to a system of self- suppliers—a point was made by the hon. Member for regulation combined with “earned recognition”. It also St Ives about clearing up supply chains—that allows for suggested that the GLA should change from being a the exchange of information. It has garnered the support heavy enforcement body to a light- touch advisory of the majority of key retailers in the food sector. By body. I am not sure that anyone would deny earned working in partnership with supermarkets—that is key—the recognition to good businesses, supply chains and GLA has been able to encourage them to deal with supermarkets who are working in partnership with the allegations of exploitation in their supply chain, and to GLA, and to the good farmers who want supply chains establish an audit standard for labour supply; that cleaned up. The problem is that all earned recognition allows them to clear up their supply chain. The protocol does is divert attention away from where gangmasters is supported by every major supermarket in the UK. It may infiltrate in the future. is welcomed by them as a way to allow them to monitor There is significant confusion about the future, what their supply chains. with the red tape challenge and what has been termed What is the future of the GLA? I welcome Ministers’ the star chamber process. That was highlighted by the announcement that they do not intend to abolish it. Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Nevertheless, the Government are considering limiting Food and Rural Affairs, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who its role, and the role of licensing remains under review. said initially: 221WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 222WH

“I am pleased to say that the need for the GLA to enforce view shared by the Select Committee on Home Affairs protections for vulnerable workers in its sectors”, in its report on “The Trade in Human Beings” back in which is crucial, 2009. “was endorsed by the red tape challenge ministerial star chamber, There is also support for an extension to the GLA’s although it recognised that the GLA needed to better target remit in the business community; that is critical to non-compliant operators and reduce burdens on the compliant. The GLA will of course continue to be monitored under the where the GLA currently sits in the Government’s Government’s ongoing reviews of public bodies and enforcement thinking. Nearly three quarters of the gangmasters who agencies.” responded to the 2008 survey by Liverpool and Sheffield That is not particularly clear. In a later exchange on the universities, which I mentioned, said that the GLA same question, he says of the star chamber process and scheme should be extended to other sectors—either to the red tape challenge: all sectors, or especially to the construction and hospitality sectors. That is significant, because many gangmasters “From my knowledge of star chambers…they are where conflicting views which may need to be resolved are discussed in an informal operate in other sectors that are not subject to GLA way. That is exactly how the star chamber has functioned in this regulation, most notably non-food manufacturing, way.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 December 2011; distribution, cleaning and construction. Good business Vol. 733, c. 993 and c. 995.] wants a level playing field, which can be delivered only I hope that the Minister will clear up some of the by dealing with this contemporary slavery. confusion this morning on the Government’s view of Recently, controversy has surrounded areas that the the GLA, and on the perceived and reported fight GLA has looked at, such as dairy farming, but the courts between the Department for Environment, Food and have recognised that, again, it is clearing up the supply Rural Affairs and BIS on the where the GLA should sit. chains. There is also a strong view that forestry should It is right that it sits with DEFRA in its current guise. It be removed from the GLA remit, but does that not should not be transferred to a Department that is provide a reason to allow the GLA to follow the evidence considering deregulation and stripping out the safeguards of gangmasters into any industry? I pose that question put in place by the GLA. to the Minister. That way, gangmasters, rather than the industry, become the issue. Let the evidence follow the Andrew George: On that point, the hon. Gentleman crime, if the evidence is there to investigate. appears to be contradicting himself. On the one hand, he is saying that the GLA should be extended to the construction trade and other trades. On the other hand, Mr David Hamilton: May I draw attention to my hon. he is saying that it should remain in DEFRA. If it goes Friend’s point about the support of the Scottish Trades beyond the parameters of the operation of DEFRA, Union Congress and the TUC? There is other support, does he not agree that it would be appropriate to rest too; the Select Committee on Work and Pensions took the body in another Government Department? evidence in Midlothian many years ago, and the construction industry was represented there. It felt aggrieved Ian Murray: I was about to come to that. I agree that about what was happening. Good, honest employers that seems inherently contradictory, but the key fact are having to compete against some unruly organisations, about the Gangmasters Licensing Authority sitting in and they feel that they are in a deficit position as a DEFRA is that it is there to do a particular job, which it result. It is important that we recognise that good is doing rather well. Moving the GLA from DEFRA to employers also want regulation. BIS would be putting it into a Department that is looking at deregulation and is running the red tape Ian Murray: Absolutely. I could not agree more with challenge. A previous Under-Secretary at BIS—now my hon. Friend. His private Member’s Bill, which I have the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change—has already mentioned, looked at similar aspects of the made clear remarks about where the GLA should sit construction industry. The critical point is that good and what its function should be. Indeed, he initiated the businesses want good regulation—this is not about the Macdonald report, which recommended a light-touch amount of regulation—to clean up the sector, so that regulatory approach. If the Under-Secretary of State those good businesses benefit, as they deserve to benefit. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. As my hon. Friend said, “unruly organisations” and Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) commits the employers can then be rooted out, protecting not only Department at least to examining the extension of the workers but the industry. That is key, and it is why powers of the GLA, there might be an argument about supermarkets have been so keen to work in partnership which Department it would sit in, but my point is that with the GLA, to bring that together. in this particular confusion, DEFRA is the best place May I summarise for the Minister some of the questions for the GLA to sit. Moving it to BIS would merely be an to which I would appreciate an answer? I am grateful act of deregulation, rather than showing support for an for his presence—the Minister with responsibility for organisation that is prone to be hugely successful. the GLA is otherwise engaged. Will he at least guarantee Will the Minister at least examine the possibility of that there will be no watering down of the GLA regulation not diluting the GLA, but extending it to other areas? and enforcement powers? Will he keep resources in We have heard about similar problems of exploitation place, because the GLA is needed more now, in tough and unlawful practices in construction, the social care times, than in better times? Will the ministerial team at sector and hospitality. There is evidence that the limited least examine the evidence for the GLA going into GLA remit has led to the displacement of rogue operators other sectors and, perhaps, following the evidence, rather from GLA sectors into other parts of the labour market— than dealing only with particular sectors? Will the Minister the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for look at the potential for more flexibility for the GLA, Midlothian. The Trades Union Congress has identified perhaps making it self-financing or providing it with the a strong case for extending the GLA licensing scheme, a powers to examine other industries in less stringent 223WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 224WH

[Ian Murray] I had a foretaste quite recently of what might still happen in the absence of a similar piece of legislation. terms, so that it looks not just at criminality? For Southport has a long history of shrimping, but we had example, I mentioned the dairy farmers: a slap on the a bonanza—almost a freak of nature—of cockles and wrist might have been more appropriate than a proper other shellfish quite recently. It was a sudden surge, criminal process in that case. perhaps because of some tidal movement. However, it There is widespread evidence that the GLA and the became well know that in the northern part of the licensing system have been effective in raising standards constituency an awful lot of money was to be made in the fresh food processing sector, and other sectors from prestigious restaurants by going there quickly, covered, and in protecting some of the most vulnerable taking appreciable risks and obtaining what was there. workers in the United Kingdom. The confusion and The local authority took the matter under control very uncertainty on the part of the Government are not effectively, but it was obvious in the circumstances that helpful, and the red tape challenge has proven that many strange people were suddenly showing up in confusion can reign in such matters. Finally, let me town, and were prepared to take appreciable risks on return to where I started: the Gangmasters Licensing behalf of themselves and those they employed in trying Authority was set up on the back of a horrendous to obtain a quick financial return. tragedy. Any reduction in the remit of the GLA would I wholly support the thrust of the legislation. As the put vulnerable workers at risk of exploitation, modern hon. Member for Edinburgh South said, it prevents a slavery and perhaps even death. Let us not scrap something number of wholly undesirable activities. It prevents that works. people from being treated badly, and prevents abuse of health and safety legislation. It even saves lives. It is not 11.26 am an underestimate to say that lives would be put at risk in the absence of proper supervision of the gangmaster John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the hon. business. It certainly ensures that more taxes are paid Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on securing than would otherwise be the case, and it goes a long way this important debate. towards cleaning up the supply chain, which has been I also congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and fairly murky in the past. I have no real evidence for this, Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), who is present and but I am fairly confident that supermarkets were receiving who was responsible for the original proposals, which vegetables that had been provided through gangmaster went through the House of Commons and into legislation. chains that required some inspection, to say the least. I followed and supported his private Member’s Bill, At the moment, the Government are against red tape, turning up on a few Fridays to ensure that it ran the as we all are. No one makes a case for red tape. The course. That might seem strange, because I represent a issue is what is meant by red tape. There is no clear seaside constituency, but it is one that has a large definition. I am told by people in the Department for agricultural hinterland. It was obvious to me, when he Transport that they were asked to look at traffic regulation was promoting his Bill, that something needed to be orders as a sample of red tape, which shows how vague done. I was acutely aware of a number of workers and blurred the definition is. If it means over-regulation whom I saw around the town who were there illegally or and unnecessary regulation, we are against it in principle, were trafficked—they were certainly not treated at all but what we are discussing is not an example of that. well. In many cases, they were appallingly housed. In There is clear evidence that an authority such as the one celebrated case, a large number of Russians were GLA is needed, and I would be sorry to see it abolished. found in a big house in Southport in conditions resembling the black hole of Calcutta. Those who were better The hon. Member for Edinburgh South has made a housed might still be extraordinarily badly treated, with case for an extension of the GLA’s remit, and I am their rent often deducted from the pittance they were slightly wary of that. He drew a valid distinction between paid; every conceivable regulation for houses in multiple dealing with gangmasters as an industry-specific issue, occupation was violated by gangmasters who often and dealing with them in terms of the business model owned the property concerned. involved. My instinctive preference is to look at the industry-specific aspect. It was also apparent to me at that time that there was some criminal involvement. Conversations that I had with the police and immigration authorities indicated Mr David Hamilton: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s that that was indeed the case. Clearly, from conversations attention to the construction industry. Many foreign that I had with valid employment agencies operating companies come to the UK and bring their employees properly within the law, the situation was also a considerable with them. The very problem of employment and restraint on their trade and was a problem in the labour accommodation to which he referred exists here now. market. As the hon. Member for Edinburgh South said, Such companies give with one hand, and take away with such people were breaching the law not only by using the other. They pay wages to their employees, but then illegal labour but by not paying full taxation or proper increase the rent for their accommodation. That happens national insurance. It was rather puzzling, when looking now in the construction industry, and it goes against at the accounts of some large agricultural suppliers, as local British firms that are trying to get into the market to how much they managed to get done with so few and do a fair job with people they care about: their people seemingly employed on the books. That was employees. The regulations should apply to foreign before the Morecambe bay tragedy, which focused people’s employers, and ensure that exploitation does not happen. minds on the seriousness of the issue and on how right the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North John Pugh: The hon. Gentleman has slightly anticipated was to bring it to our attention. Had people acted me. There is a prima facie case in the construction sooner, we certainly would not have had that tragedy. industry, and there has long been a history of gangmaster 225WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 226WH behaviour, which used to be called the lump. Building on behalf of all those people who have enjoyed the firms sometimes employ people as a gang instead of benefits of the GLA so far. I chair the Public and employing them individually to avoid some of the penalties Commercial Services Union cross-party parliamentary that might be incurred because work on a building site group that represents staff who work in the GLA. I is intrinsically risky. A construction firm might incur have met the staff, and they have explained some of the liabilities, but sometimes, by arrangement, they fall on issues that they have encountered, and some of the the gangmasters, who accept no ultimate liability whatever. remedies that they have been able to introduce to tackle There is a decent case for including the construction exploitation. and agriculture industries, but it becomes more difficult The first issue is that the need continues. The second in the catering industry, which the hon. Member for is whether the GLA has the right powers and appropriate Edinburgh South mentioned. We seem to be moving terms of reference. At one point, a lobby was building into territory where we may be imposing on an industry up, certainly in the farming community, which feared regulation that, strictly speaking, is unnecessary. that the GLA might have too many powers, but that is wrong. The farmers are not inspected; the inspection Ian Murray: Perhaps I could provide some clarification. falls on the gangmasters, not the farmers. There is no I examined whether there should be an extension to additional burden on farmers. The argument that is other industries, but I particularly asked the Minister to coming across is that those who work in agriculture examine whether it would be appropriate for the GLA have supported the GLA for its maintenance of standards to cover other industries, rather than saying that it and prevention of exploitation. should have a blanket involvement. I was asking for The issue that has arisen today is that the GLA has some proposals from the Government, and whether it too few powers. It does not cover enough areas of would wise and prudent to do so. industry. I understand the concern of the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) about creeping and additional John Pugh: The hon. Gentleman makes an entirely red tape, but I want to give two examples of anomalies valid point. He is suggesting a benchmark or threshold that arise when powers are ineffective. In one instances, that must be met before imposing additional regulation. GLA officers went to scrutinise the conditions of workers Surely, that benchmark or threshold has been met in the in a bottling factory. They could scrutinise the conditions agricultural industry. In my view it has certainly been of the workers who were bottling fruit juices from met in the construction industry. Removing existing farm-grown crops, but they could not take any action controls when there is clear evidence that they are for workers who were bottling water on the production needed would be regressive and wholly detrimental to line beside them. There are anomalies in the powers. the interests of British commerce and to the people who Another example is a gangmaster who was guilty of work in those industries. malpractice in the agricultural sector, and then boasted of moving into the care sector. I understand the concerns Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. It may help that have been raised, but as we review the GLA, we hon. Members to tell them that I am hoping to start the must state the criteria that determine whether we move wind-ups at 10 minutes past 12. I believe that three hon. into other sectors and industries. It is clear that we must Members wish to be called, and if they are reasonably overcome the anomalies of gangmasters being found brief, they can all speak. guilty of malpractice in one area, and then setting up camp to exploit workers in another. What came out of 11.35 am discussions with staff on the ground and other organisations is that there are real difficulties in securing adequate John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I prosecutions. We need to look at the GLA’s powers of shall be extremely brief. I thank my hon. Friend the investigation and its ability to prosecute. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for introducing My third point is about staffing resources and location. the debate. I know that it is customary to do so, but I I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh genuinely want to. He expressed eloquently and concisely South regarding location, that it does not matter which why we are here. I agree that any Government must Department, as long as it does not go to a Department regularly review the organisation of workers, so I welcome that does not give it sufficient priority. That is the the review of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, but anxiety about moving into the Department for Business, it is important to consider very carefully its three aspects. Innovation and Skills. There has been some argument First, is the GLA still necessary? I do not know of about the merger of the GLA with the Employment any organisation or political party that argues that Agency Standards Inspectorate. The worry about that there is no longer a need for it. Employers have come is that that is an advisory body; it is not an enforcement forward to argue that there is a continuing need for it, as and licensing authority.A merger of that sort, undermining have trade unions across the piece, and many civil the GLA’s licensing and enforcement powers, would be society organisations that helped us campaign for it to severely detrimental. It would certainly contradict the be set up. Anyone who doubts whether the GLA is original intentions of the legislation. That is why there needed should go on the website, which describes examples is a protection to keep it in the Department for of continuing and horrendous exploitation, some of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and why there is which have been cited today. anxiety about any lessening of its role as a licensing Sometimes in this House, we do not thank people authority. enough. We have heroes among us today: those hon. There is also an issue about staffing and resources. Members who campaigned long and hard to achieve The GLA, like every other Government body, has been the breakthrough in the legislation that established the subject to cuts, staffing freezes and so on. We have to be GLA. I want to put on the record my thanks to them careful that the staffing cuts made so far or threatened 227WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 228WH

[John McDonnell] of the law. The Act was therefore designed to regulate the activities of gangmasters, to drive the rogues out of in the future do not undermine the role of the GLA. I business, put the criminals behind bars and stop the would welcome the Minister’s looking at that, so that exploitation of migrant and indigenous workers. the organisation is adequately staffed. I will quickly walk through the details of the Act to Finally, I want to commend the staff and management show how it has delivered on its key objectives. First, we of the GLA for their excellent work. They have outlined have always argued for the widest possible scope. That some horrendous examples of gangmasters’ operations involves closing down any loopholes or rat runs through in this country. They have tackled them and won the which rogue gangmasters might evade the law or escape support of employers and trade unions alike. licensing. The Act applies to the whole UK and, as I said, covers agricultural and horticultural work, shellfish- 11.41 am gathering and the processing or packaging of any products derived from those industries. It defines a gangmaster Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): as anyone employing, supplying or supervising a worker I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh in those sectors. It also applies to gangmasters, whether South (Ian Murray) on securing this important debate. based in the UK or offshore, and all subcontractors. It I am concerned that, almost eight years on, we are still also covers employment agencies and employment talking about the threat of the GLA legislation rights businesses if they operate in the sectors covered by the being diluted. That gives me serious cause for concern Act. and I think we need to move forward. Secondly, we have always argued for a robust and I thank the staff at the GLA—in particular, the effective body to regulate gangmasters and enforce the former chairman Paul Whitehouse, who got the agency licence conditions. The Act set up the GLA, chaired by up and running and hit the ground running. He has former Chief Constable Paul Whitehouse, and run by a certainly done a very efficient job. I also thank the board of key community and industry stakeholders, National Farmers Union. A strange coalition of trade from Departments such as the Department for unions came together to fight and organise for a GLA. I Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department think that it was the first time that the TUC and the for Work and Pensions and the Home Office, and from NFU have campaigned on the same side. The Transport enforcement agencies such as the Inland Revenue. It set and General Workers Union, as it was known then, was licence conditions and the licence fee and established a at the heart of the campaign, under its then national public register of licensed gangmasters. It also has the secretary, now my hon. Friend the Member for ability to carry out investigations of abuse by gangmasters Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who helped and the power proactively to enforce the licence conditions, drive the legislation through. with a line of accountability leading from the GLA, The legal gangmasters also played an important role through the Secretary of State to Parliament. in introducing the legislation, as did the legal employment Thirdly, the Act provides for effective enforcement by agencies that were right behind it from the start. There creating offences that will help to bring about a real was cross-party support from Conservatives, Liberals, culture change in the industry. The offences are operating Labour and so on. That was extremely important. Last, without a licence, obtaining or possessing a false licence, but perhaps not least, we eventually managed to convince using an unlicensed gangmaster and obstructing an the major retailers that it was to their benefit to have enforcement officer. The Act also amends the Proceeds some credible employment legislation and not to exploit of Crime Act 2002, so that the assets of convicted farmers, as they were doing at that time. Eventually, gangmasters can be seized, and it also amends the they did come on board. Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to make operating In practical terms, my contribution to the debate on without a licence and possession of a false licence migration and employment rights has been to take arrestable offences. through Parliament the private Member’s Bill that became the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004. I would like to The Act carries penalties with real deterrent value: run briefly through the main points of the Act, before I 12 months in prison for operating without a licence or highlight some of the challenges that lie ahead in ensuring possessing a false licence; up to two years’ imprisonment that the Act does exactly what it says on the tin and why for a second offence; and up to 10 years’ imprisonment it must be retained. for a third offence. Out of the 30 sections of the Act, section 26 may be the most important in protecting The Act introduced a licensing, registration and auditing migrant workers: scheme for the providers of agricultural and horticultural work, shellfish-gathering and in the food-processing “A person is not prevented from being a worker for the purposes of this Act by reason of the fact that he [or she] has no and packaging industries. Many people think the Act right to be, or to work, in the United Kingdom.” was drafted as a response to the Morecambe Bay tragedy. That is not factually correct; it was drafted before that In other words, regardless of whether a person is regular tragic event. However, the introduction of the Bill stands or irregular, documented or undocumented, indigenous testimony, in memory of those poor Chinese people or migrant, if they work in the areas covered by the Act, who died. That tragedy was the catalyst that made the they are legal workers. Government of the time accept the Bill. Not only are people protected by the conditions The Bill was drafted as a response to the deregulation attached to the gangmasters licence, but they are also that led to the loss of so many lives on the sands of entitled to the rights and protections offered by UK Morecambe Bay. Years of deregulation had left rogue employment law. Under the Act, there is no such thing operators beyond the reach of the law and vulnerable as an illegal worker—a worker is a worker is a worker—and workers, especially migrant workers, beyond the protection that is a huge advance in the rights of migrant workers 229WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 230WH in this country. It is also an important step on the road to the supermarkets, and there was also a remarkable to building a just and humane system of managed all-party coalition. I remember appearing on many migration. platforms with my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley That is what the Act does and how it works. However, and Renfrewshire North and with Gillian Shephard, getting an Act on to the statute book is not the end but who was then a Member of Parliament and spoke in rather the beginning of the process. If this country is to support of the Bill. prosper economically, socially and culturally, we must At the time, I was deputy general secretary of the have a just, humane and well-managed migration policy. Transport and General Workers Union, and I saw an A key ingredient of such a policy must be the opening utter determination across party politics and throughout up of legal routes for migration by ensuring that every the industry to end modern day slavery and ensure the migrant worker who comes to the country can earn a fair treatment of workers and fair competition. There decent living in well-regulated, safe jobs that are free were honourable gangmasters such as Zad Padda, who from exploitation. The Gangmasters (Licensing) Act spoke out and complained bitterly about how difficult it 2004 is legal proof that we have the political will to do was to be a reputable gangmaster in what he described that in the UK. We do not have to let vulnerable as a jungle. Workers were not only treated unfairly, but migrant workers fall prey to criminals who run the reputable gangmasters were undercut. The legislation black economy, and that is not only my opinion, but sought to reassure decent farmers that they were using that of legal businesses that operate in the industry. reputable gangmasters and assure shoppers in supermarkets I am conscious of the time, Mr Brady, and that other that the goods they were buying were not the product of hon. Members wish to speak. I will therefore conclude modern day slavery. It was the most complex private by saying that there is an overwhelming case for the Act Member’s Bill in 30 years, but it became law. to be extended, starting with the construction industry—my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) spoke about the problems faced by legal employers in [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] that area. There is also an argument that exploitation takes place in the service industry, and many of the I was privileged to be asked by Members from across main hotels in the country will be staffed by illegal the parties, and by the industry, together with the then migrants or people who have been organised by president of the National Farmers Union, Tim Bennett, gangmasters. There is therefore an overwhelming case, to appoint the first chairman of the Gangmasters Licensing not only in the construction industry but also in the Authority, Paul Whitehouse. He is a remarkable man service sector, that if we are to be a decent country that who provided outstanding leadership in setting up what treats people with respect, the Act should be extended was, without doubt, the most effective of the enforcement to other industries. agencies. It was governed by a board that brought together the other enforcement agencies and the totality of the industry. 11.52 am The track record of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a is remarkable. The Hampton review pointed out that it pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady, has been impressive given its size, and indeed it has. Its and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for achievements in raising standards throughout agriculture Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) for initiating this debate. and fisheries were welcomed by the overwhelming majority I want to tell a story about what happened in February of gangmasters, including the Association of Labour 2008. Five years after the Morecambe bay tragedy, a Providers. The authority has rightly driven rogues out commemorative event was organised by the Chinese of the industry, and recovered millions of pounds for community in London. Given my involvement in the the public purse, including by combating tax avoidance. Gangmasters (Licensing) Bill and its passage into law, I The Equality and Human Rights Commission was was asked to attend. Two young Chinese women read right to say that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority out letters from relatives of those who had died at is the most effective of the enforcement agencies. Its Morecambe bay. I do not mind admitting that I, together approach to raising standards has been positive and with everyone else, was in tears as we heard heartbreaking underpinned by the unmistakable message that has stories of Chinese workers who had come to build a been sent to rogue gangmasters and disreputable farmers— new life in Britain, ringing home on their mobile phones. there are some—that if they break the law, penalties will One story in particular always sticks in my mind. The be rigorously enforced. daughter said: “He was weeping. He asked me to quickly If the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was powerful get his mother and his wife. He wanted to say farewell in the past, it is all the more powerful now because of because the water was lapping at his chest. He knew the issues that it is tackling, which include labour and that there was no way out and that he was about to die.” human trafficking. It works in close consultation with My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and agencies that range from the Home Office to the police. Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) did the cause of Given the reasons why the GLA was set up, its success social justice in Britain an outstanding service by taking and the issues that it now tackles, it seems extraordinary through the Bill, and he is right to say that its origins that we should need such a debate because of the red predated Morecambe bay. However, the appalling tragedy tape review. We should start by celebrating the success of February 2003 brought together the country, all of a remarkable organisation and ensure that it has political parties, communities and the industry, to ensure continuing resources to do its job. We should not debate that never again would we have a Morecambe bay scaling back the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, but tragedy. There was a remarkable coalition of support consider how we can make it yet more effective and from Plough to Plate and the National Farmers Union extend its powers and scope. 231WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 232WH

[Jack Dromey] but I would like to make one or two points. We all come to the House with our own experiences from the lives I take the point that such decisions should be evidence- that we led before becoming Members of Parliament. based. If we consider the evidence, however, there is a That is one of the characteristics that is strong in powerful case for extending the authority of the GLA Parliament. I came here with nearly 20 years’ experience into the construction industry. Evidence suggests that as a coal miner. The comparisons between the mining the same gangmasters found in agriculture and fisheries industry and the construction industry are stark. They also operate in construction. Powers, including the ability are very similar, in that the numbers of deaths and to impose civil penalties, should make it easier for the injuries in each are extremely high. Like my hon. Friends GLA to act against disreputable gangmasters and recover the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) moneys for the public purse. That is the debate that we and for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), should be having; we should not have to defend the who spoke before me, I do not lean away from regulation. GLA in the way that I am doing, albeit proudly. I Regulation saves lives in many areas, and the construction therefore hope that the Government will seriously reflect industry is one of the areas that I believe is very important. on the red tape review and put beyond doubt any I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member question mark over the future of the GLA. for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), who initiated the debate, that the GLA should follow the evidence that Jim Sheridan: I suppose that it is right and responsible comes forward. I will just make one or two observations. that we always check red tape. That is being done When I was unable to get my private Member’s Bill through the red tape challenge, the red tape review or through—technically, it is still there, but I think that I whatever it is called. However, I am not aware of a am about 120th or so in the list—among the examples single employer, during the time that we were negotiating, that I intended to raise was Pure Recruitment Solutions, raising objections to the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act based in Glasgow. Its licence was revoked in 2008. 2004. Perhaps through my hon. Friend, I can ask the However, the company still operates and provides labour Minister whether there is any evidence of a single to a number of sectors, one of which is construction. employer who has asked for the 2004 Act to be rescinded The same is true of Prestige Recruitment Ltd. Its licence or for the authority to be merged into some obscure was revoked in 2007, but it still operates in a number of department. sectors, including construction. It is also true of Victor Jack Dromey: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful Wolf Ltd, which lost its licence in January of last year, point. I remember a meeting in the House during the and of ASAP Recruitment, which lost its licence the passage of the Bill that he addressed. I chaired the year before. It still works in various sectors, but not in meeting. Sitting to my left was Gillian Shephard. Sitting agriculture. to my right was the president of the National Farmers The fact is that we close companies down in one Union. Sitting to his right were two senior chief executives sector and they re-establish themselves in another. I of two of the major supermarkets. Sitting to Gillian refer to construction unashamedly, because I strongly Shephard’s left were two gangmasters. It was a remarkable believe that the number of deaths and serious accidents meeting. All of them were saying the same thing—the in the construction industry can be reduced if regulation time had come to tackle what was a jungle, characterised is applied. The regulation is supported by the representatives by serious exploitation, because it shamed our society, of the workers and by the honest employers in the and together we were determined to act to end that construction industry. I meet them regularly, as other modern-day slavery. hon. Members must. People can go round the businesses The debate should be about considering how we in my area, where the building sites and so on are. make an outstanding organisation yet more effective, Subcontractors are, by nature, local firms. However, in tackling exploitation wherever there is evidence of it, many cases, the subcontractors are being squeezed out including in other sectors, and following the evidence of the market simply because labour is being brought in into those sectors—the case in relation to construction from other places. Bed and breakfast is included for is particularly powerful. those workers; their board and so on is included. I will conclude by saying—this is not aimed at the I remember my father telling me about the situation Minister here today—that I have sometimes been involved in the mining village of Newtongrange. Images of it can in debates with Ministers who, when the word “regulation” be seen in the Scottish mining museum. I am talking is mentioned, hold up a clove of garlic in one hand and about a time just before the second world war. A person a cross in the other. Unashamedly, this debate is about called Mungo Mackay owned all the houses in regulation, but this regulation is right. It is effective. It Newtongrange. He was also the coal owner. He gave the tackles extreme exploitation. Ultimately, the debate is miners a rise and then put the price of bread up in the about what kind of society we want to live in. If what shops and put the rent up. It was a case of giving with happened at Morecambe bay shamed Britain, there one hand and taking away with the other. should be an utter determination to say, “Never, ever The people who are being exploited today are the again.” foreign workers who come in, but the situation is also completely unfair to local employers. It is about time Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): I intend to start the that we recognised that if we want to make progress in winding-up speeches at 12.10 pm this country and create an environment that is worth working in, we must ensure that the honest employers 12.2 pm are protected and protect the workers at the same time. Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I will not I wanted to make one or two points, because the 2004 take up much time, Mr Dobbin. I did not intend to Act is under threat. We should be looking at extending speak, because the previous contributions were so good, the Act, not reducing it. We should be ensuring that we 233WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 234WH protect British workers. Disasters happen because of a sequence of events to happen in the construction industry, sequence of events. I fear that one of these days there and one way of ensuring that it does not is by telling will be a disaster in the construction industry and then bad employers, “You’re not welcome.” people will be concerned. I was part of the Bill that went through Parliament; my hon. Friend the Member 12.9 pm for Paisley and Renfrewshire North allowed my name Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I am pleased to to go down. I question whether the Bill would have been speak in this timely debate. I thank all hon. Members able to go through if the disaster in Morecambe bay for their contributions to it, and I particularly thank my had not happened. The reason why it received support hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian across the board was the disaster that happened at that Murray) for introducing it. The red tape review is going time. If it had not happened, there might have been on, and the Minister will have taken note of the passion difficulties in getting the Bill through. I do not want the and expertise among Opposition Members, who have same to happen in the construction industry. There are spoken strongly of the support across parties and across deaths and serious accidents in the construction industry civic society for the introduction of the original legislation, on a regular basis. The numbers will grow if employers and I am sure that that support remains. He will have are unregulated. They will exploit that avenue. We should taken note of the genuine ambition that he should not be allowing that to happen. ensure that there is no diminution, weakening or dilution of the GLA as currently structured, and that, as my John Pugh: In the run-up to the Olympics in Athens, hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington many lives were lost on the building sites. In the run-up (Jack Dromey) said, the licensing regime’s proactive to the Olympics in London, no such event or no event enforcement is not watered down. of such a size has taken place. Does that not help the We have had a good debate about where we go from argument that regulation on British building rates is at here. That has been the nature of the debate; we are not any rate better, if not good enough? trying to find the be-all and end-all solution. I hope officials and the Minister, in carrying out his departmental Mr Hamilton: There were a number of reasons for responsibilities and in his wider discussions across Whitehall, that. I can give the example of the headquarters of the will take some of our messages away with them. Royal Bank of Scotland—admittedly, that is not the My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South best subject in the world to be talking about at present. made an all-encompassing and powerful contribution. Only one accident happened there, and the reason why He put the case exceptionally well, and I will come back only one accident happened was that at the beginning in a moment to some of his points. My hon. Friend the the contractor who got the contract sat down with the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) work force and the trade union movement and agreed referred to his role as chair of the PCS union group; I with all the subcontractors a strategy whereby accidents have previously engaged with him in that role. I commend were unacceptable. The problem is that very few employers him on his work, and on the constructive way in which of that magnitude take that view. That employer did it, he has always represented the interests of PCS union and better than that, it was able to prove that the members. As my hon. Friend has shown, they can make contract came in under budget and under time. a contribution to ensuring that we have better workplaces Let me contrast that with the Scottish Parliament. and better ways of working. The Bovis company was running things at the Scottish My hon. Friend referred to the criteria by which we Parliament. If someone walked on to the Scottish could judge whether the GLA should move into other Parliament building site, they would hardly find an sectors. That is the sort of issue we need to debate. English-speaking worker, yet the signs were all in English. Under what circumstances, and judged against what They had to go to serious classes and there were a criteria, could we say that the GLA’s great success, number of accidents at the Scottish Parliament. testified to today, could be replicated in other areas into which the evidence leads it? There are good employers and there are bad employers. I do not criticise all employers. However, if we un-regulate My hon. Friend referred to the fact that licensing and or do not regulate and employers recognise that there is enforcement powers are critical, wherever they are located a gap, they will go to that gap. in government. There is an active debate about what the most appropriate place is—concerns have been raised about whether the Department for Business, Innovation Jim Sheridan: We have been exceptionally lucky not and Skills would be the right place—and whether the to have had a Morecambe bay disaster on the Olympic GLA’s core values would be best preserved in a Department site, but we cannot forget the fact that the number of that is simultaneously trying to drive down regulation. deaths in the construction industry is rising. We must The point was well made in the debate that there is keep that at the forefront of our minds. good regulation as well as bad regulation. The great benefit of the way the GLA has been constructed and Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Mr Hamilton has one the way it has acted over the past few years is that it minute left. does the right thing in the right place at the right time. If hon. Members will excuse the comparison, it punches Mr Hamilton: I will just add this, Mr Dobbin. The like a good Welsh bantam-weight—well above its weight. other side of the coin is that every serious accident is It has relatively few resources, it is very fleet of foot and one step away from a death. It should be recognised that it really packs a clout. the number of deaths could increase quite dramatically. Tribute has rightly been paid to my hon. Friend the I am an ex-miner. I recognise that disasters happen Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) because of a sequence of events. I do not want such a for introducing the original private Member’s Bill, and 235WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 236WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] the TUC, but the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, with its research reports, the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, for the work that he and others did to build tremendous Oxfam, the Wilberforce Institute for the study of Slavery consensus, which is sustained today. He referred to the and Emancipation, the International Labour Organisation, necessity of proactive enforcement, and that is key. He the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, put the case very well. the Dutch national rapporteur on trafficking and the My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington, Harvard university programme. One after the other, has a great background in this issue, not as a Member they line up to say that the GLA is not only effective, of Parliament, but as part of the wider civic engagement but efficient. It does what it does leanly and with through the trade union movement. He reminded us minimal resources. If it works so well, my question to that behind all the debates about where the GLA goes is the Minister is: why would the Government tinker with the human tragedy that inspired it, and that necessitates it without a darn good reason? its continuation in a dynamic, proactive form. He talked That is before we look at the issue of where the GLA about support extending from plough to plate, across should go now. In one sense, the debate is about the all parties and across society. He also said that we can future of the GLA as currently formed and in the look at using the model we have to end the scourge of sectors it currently looks after. In another sense, it is modern slavery, which still exists. about where the GLA goes from here. As we have heard The GLA, which was established in 2004, was designed from hon. Members, the TUC and others believe that to do a number of things. One was to establish a level there is a strong case for extending the GLA licensing playing field across industry, so that we could avoid scheme, and the Select Committee on Home Affairs undercutting and take out rogue operators. It was about said the same in its report on the issue. improving the working lives of the vulnerable, and its Baroness Kennedy’s report for the Equality and Human success in doing that has been proved. It was also about Rights Commission commented: assisting in the battle against criminality and human “Another problem is that the remit of the GLA is currently trafficking. confined to the oversight of labour in the food and agricultural sectors, while exploited foreign labour may now be found in the It is important to set out the GLA’s successes, and we service and construction industries as well as in care homes. In heard earlier about its measurable, tangible successes. our evidence-gathering it became clear to us that there seemed to The annual report for 2010-11 showed that 845 cases of be no good reason for the vital work of the GLA not being worker exploitation were identified in that year. Some expanded to include these other sectors and to cover other forms 91%—that is, 78 cases—of the GLA’s intelligence-driven of contract employment and outsourced work, and that employers operations identified serious cases of non-compliance. who used such labour should hold some responsibility for wages Thirty-six cases of unlicensed activity were uncovered, and conditions.” and 33 licences were revoked, with 12 successful There have been other reports, such as Oxfam’s “Turning prosecutions. The case for the GLA continuing its work the Tide: How to best protect workers employed by is therefore still crystal clear; abuses are still happening. gangmasters, five years after Morecambe Bay”. We Even with the GLA’s dynamic, fleet-of-foot approach have also had the TUC’s commission on vulnerable and proactive enforcement, there are still cases out employees and the Health and Safety Executive’s report there to be pursued and prosecuted. on deaths in construction, “One Death is too Many”. They all proposed that the scope of the sectors covered The GLA has had a significant wider impact because by the GLA should be under consideration for extension. of its deliberate efforts to go after high-profile cases with a high media impact to get the message out to Finally, I recommend that the Minister reads, if he rogue employers that they cannot continue doing what has not done so, the report by the TUC and the Union they are doing. That has been very successful. of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, “The Hidden Workforce Building Britain”. One of the many There has been continuing support for the GLA. examples in it concerns a UCATT investigation in July When surveyed in 2008, eight out of 10 respondents 2008, which showed that on a private finance initiative said they were in favour of licensing, while seven out of hospital site in Mansfield, workers were being paid a 10 felt the GLA was doing a good job. Only 18% total of £8.80 for a complete 40-hour week. The union described contact with the GLA as being in any way took the case to the employment tribunal. It was contested. burdensome. The company is a large one, by the way, which carries In that respect, does the Minister have a view about out many large public sector contracts throughout the the GLA’s role on forestry? There has been great discussion UK. It, of course, insisted that the workers were self- with forestry employers and unions about whether forestry employed and did not come under the national minimum needs to be retained in the remit of the GLA as currently wage regulations. On and on it went. The GLA would structured. Some have put forward the view that certification be effective for that sort of anomaly. means it is very difficult to find unregulated, rogue The debate is a genuine one. We want the GLA to be operators in the forestry regime. Does the Minister safe in its current form, not weakened; and we want to think there might not be a case for forestry remaining in ask what consideration is being given in government the current structure? I would be interested to hear his and Whitehall to extending its remit, and how that views on the issue, and particularly what discussions he would happen. Where would that remit go, and is has had on it with the unions. anything happening at the moment? There is strong Let me turn to the question of whether the GLA is support for the Minister to take the matter forward efficient as well as effective. There is no doubt that it is proactively, rather than simply putting it under the effective. As to whether it is efficient, the organisations banner of the red tape review so that the GLA becomes using the GLA as an example of how to implement an diminished without our even considering its success and efficient regulatory control framework include not only whether it should be taken further. 237WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority21 FEBRUARY 2012 Gangmasters Licensing Authority 238WH

12.21 pm about regulation and where the Government sit on those two matters. I assure him and other hon. Members The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that there is no clove or garlic or cross in my hand. We Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): are not talking about no regulation, or less regulation I start by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Edinburgh per se; we are talking about better regulation. We are South (Ian Murray) for raising this important matter. I not talking about ending health and safety legislation am desperate not to sound patronising; it is in the finest through any Government review or challenge. What we tradition of this House, when the Government are want is regulation that is better, more fleet of foot and considering a way forward, for the Opposition—rightly—to less cumbersome, but also effective. We want to provide push their view and to push the Government in the that for employers, who will hopefully, in the future, direction they want. employ people who are currently unemployed; and we It has been a useful debate and a very good one, want it to be part of the rights of workers, wherever showing the passion that surrounds the issue, and reminding they come from. us that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was created We will continue to look at what more the GLA at the time of an appalling tragedy, which we must needs to do to tackle non-compliant high-risk operators never forget. We narrowly avoided a repeat this year in while also reducing unnecessary burdens on those who the Ribble estuary when there was a bonanza—a sort of are compliant. Those are complementary and mutually Klondike operation—for cockle-picking. Interestingly, reinforcing goals, which we are keen to bring about. We as my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John are actively looking at what needs to be done to ensure Pugh) said, the GLA worked well in those circumstances that they happen. We are not—with respect to the GLA with the local authority, the Inshore Fisheries and and employment law more widely—removing essential Conservation Authority, the police and the Marine and protections for vulnerable workers. What we are doing Coastguard Agency to close down that activity. I deeply is about ensuring that there is a legislative framework regret that the fishery had to be closed, but it was that safeguards workers’ rights while reducing onerous necessary because of the activities of certain people; in and unnecessary demands on business. I hope that hon. many cases it was individuals who were involved, but Members understand that. That is surely an objective there was also some evidence of illegality. That is an we all can, and should, share. example of the GLA working well with other agencies. It is also important that the GLA should continue to I am pleased to have a debate today about the future be supported by industry, including by retailers who of the GLA. It is a body that the Department for work with the authority because they want to maximise Environment, Food and Rural Affairs sponsors because assurance about the proper working of the supply chain. its remit is focused on agriculture and food processing. I entirely take the point that was raised by hon. Members As has been mentioned, normally the Minister of State about good farmers, employers and businesses being would have responded. However, today is a significant disadvantaged by those who act illegally. It is important one in the farming calendar and he is attending the that we understand that. The GLA should also be National Farmers Union annual conference in Birmingham. supported by labour providers and other employers, So, too, is the Secretary of State, who made a keynote who need to be able to operate on a level playing field, speech at the conference this morning. In that speech where good employers are not undercut by those who she announced the publication of our response to the seek to gain a competitive advantage by flouting the law farm regulation taskforce. and taking advantage of their workers. As hon. Members would expect, the taskforce, which I am happy to recognise that the GLA is widely was chaired by Richard Macdonald, had a very informed regarded in many circles as having brought about significant view about the work of the authority and made improvements to the treatment of the most vulnerable recommendations on how the GLA might be improved. workers in the areas it regulates. I join the hon. Member The GLA is also subject to continuing Government for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) in paying reviews, including one on workplace rights compliance tribute to the staff of the GLA, and to those who were and enforcement, and the red tape challenge, which at its birth and campaigned for it. Often the workers have been mentioned by hon. Members. The review about whom we are concerned share a number of process is under way and the views that have been common factors: they have no fixed place of work; they expressed today, very eloquently, will be considered as are located in rural and less accessible settings; they are part of that. We have already announced, and confirmed undocumented and often unsupervised labour; they in our response to the farm regulation taskforce, that we are low-skilled migrant workers with little or no working endorse the need for the GLA to enforce protection for knowledge of English, and accommodation or transport vulnerable workers in the relevant sector—those who is provided as part of their employment. However, the are least able to take action on their own account. I GLA’s experience of operating under the terms of the hope that that offers some reassurance to hon. Members. Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 suggests that there is I want to take up some of the points that were made, room for a number of improvements. It is clear, for and I have already alluded to cross-agency working; we example, that there are areas that it covers that are must not think that the GLA operates in a bubble. It is dominated not by the presence of vulnerable workers vital, particularly when it works in areas of high criminality who are at risk, but by skilled workers who are articulate and large amounts of money—where there can be and more than capable of enforcing their own employment criminality through the supply chain—that it should rights. work with other agencies. That holistic approach is Jim Sheridan: Will the Minister give way? important. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) talked in an intervention about health and safety legislation Richard Benyon: I am conscious of the time, and I and I would link that with the point made by the hon. want to get on to the point about the construction Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) industry, if the hon. Gentleman will forgive me. 239WH Gangmasters Licensing Authority 21 FEBRUARY 2012 240WH

[Richard Benyon] Child Benefit The issue I have just outlined is one of those that we want to look at in more detail as part of the ongoing red 12.30 pm tape challenge process. We want to come forward with proposals on it in due course. Building on the successes Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): The it has already had in improving its operations, the GLA purpose of this short debate is to use the force of is running its own pilot project in the forestry sector, argument to put further pressure on the Government to designed to apply a light-touch enforcement approach. abandon their policy of taking child benefit away from To answer the point made by the hon. Member for children who have a parent who is a higher rate taxpayer. Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), the forestry regulation I also wish to address the alternative approaches if the taskforce will report shortly, and make some Government wish to raise even more money from higher recommendations, which will no doubt be of great rate taxpayers. interest to him. Last Thursday, the lead in The Daily Telegraph was, There was some talk in the debate about the construction “Penalty for paying off student loan early is lifted.” The industry, which is obviously not an area covered by my following words were attributed to a Downing street Department. However, the industry has made significant source: improvements in the past 10 years in the number of “This is hopefully good news for tens of thousands of families, serious accidents and fatalities. I cannot say that about as well as many Conservative MPs who had raised concerns about agriculture, which is the industry I come from. I am not the penalties.” proud of that. I am happy to debate the issue when we I congratulate and thank the Prime Minister for having have more time, but the Government are considering responded to those concerns, which I and many others the issue of enforcement as a whole, across Government. had expressed on that issue. I hope a similar response No doubt the statistics will be part of that. We are not will be forthcoming to the even greater and more widespread talking just about safety in the sense of health and the concerns that are the subject of this short debate. number of fatalities in an industry, but about exploitation, which is more complex and requires a more nuanced I recognise that a substantive response may have to approach. There is a lack of hard evidence about wait until the Chancellor’s Budget speech next month. I employment abuses in construction. It does not feature can assure him that all MPs will be raising their papers in the Low Pay Commission’s top 12 low pay sectors. if he is able to use similar phraseology about good news According to data from the annual survey of hours and for families and Conservative MPs. One essential difference earnings, only 0.7% of construction workers were paid between the two issues is that the removal of child at the national minimum wage rate in April 2009. Pay is benefit from higher rate taxpayers is something that sometimes below union-negotiated rates but above the concerns many more MPs, not just Conservative MPs minimum and not illegal. The issue then is not about but MPs right across the house. Many more families are extending the scope of the GLA— affected as well—anything between 1.5 million and 1.8 million families with, collectively, about 3 million Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. children. There are relatively few political issues on which, over the generations, there has been a cross-party consensus. One issue is the support for the principle of a universal, non-taxable cash payment for families with children. That is now known as child benefit, which was initially introduced in 1977. Child benefit replaced child tax allowances, which dated back to 1909, and family allowances, which were introduced following the Beveridge report in 1946. Beveridge regarded a universal system of children’s allowances as a fundamental plank of the welfare state, providing “help to parents in meeting their responsibilities, and as an acceptance of new responsibilities by the community.” Beveridge did not support the means-testing of children’s allowances any more than he supported means-testing for access to NHS services. When child benefit was introduced by the Labour Government, it enjoyed all-party support. Indeed, its introduction proceeded despite the desperate financial crisis at that time, in 1976-77, when this country was under the cosh of the IMF—the IMF was effectively running the Treasury. No politician at that time made the argument that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did in the House on 20 October 2010. He said: “The debts of the last Labour Government, and the need to ensure that the better-off in society also make a fair contribution, make this choice”— 241WH Child Benefit21 FEBRUARY 2012 Child Benefit 242WH the removal of child benefit for families with a higher A family in the last category came to my constituency rate taxpayer— surgery in autumn 2010 and impressed on me the utter “unavoidable.”—[Official Report, 20 October 2010; Vol. 516, folly of the Government’s proposals. I then engaged in c. 959.] correspondence with the Treasury. On 18 January 2011, We have afforded universal benefits for children in the Exchequer Secretary responded to my letter of families from 1976 to the present day. The state has 16 October—the fact that it took three months to get a grown in size since then. Why are we talking about response indicates something—in which I had specifically removing this universal benefit at this stage? In my asked the Chancellor about the impact of his policy on submission, it is avoidable, and must be avoided. those in receipt of carer’s allowance. My constituent’s wife earns slightly above the higher rate threshold, while To emphasise just how far the Government are now he stays at home to look after his two children, one of proposing to go to destroy the previous consensus, it is whom has Down’s syndrome. The point that I wished worth noting that the Child Poverty Action Group, the Chancellor to address was my constituents’ concern which supports universal child benefit, says: that in households where, through circumstance rather “Those with children have higher costs than those without and than choice, only one parent is able to work, the higher they need additional support at whatever level of income they live rate tax payer is normally compensating for the lack of on.” earning capacity of the other. As my constituents said: Margaret Thatcher’s Government described child benefit “This penalises families of those who live the true spirit of as simple, well understood and popular. Indeed, it has a social responsibility each and every day.” take-up rate of over 97%. After a three-month delay, I received my reply; I had There was no hint at the last general election that the hoped for a better response. It merely asserted that the consensus would be broken. Conservative party policy policy is tough but fair and that affected families are was set in stone. Indeed, the Prime Minister, as Leader within the top 20% of the income distribution of all of the Opposition, made this boast: families. I immediately wrote back asking my hon. “I want the next Government to be the most family friendly Friend the Exchequer Secretary to address specifically Government we’ve ever had in this country.” how the impact of the proposals on families such as At a public meeting in Bolton on 5 March 2010, he said that of my constituent could be regarded as fair. I am that he would not “change child benefit”. He was sorry to say that it was another three months—on undoubtedly taking a leaf out of the then shadow 12 April—before my hon. Friend replied. He said: Chancellor’s book who addressed the matter at the “Inevitably, introducing a simple change to a universal system can create some difficult cases and it would unfortunately be Conservative party conference on 6 October 2009. He difficult to create an exception for families where one partner is a said: carer.” “We will preserve child benefit”. He repeated the assertion that the Government believed The early decisions of the coalition Government the policy to be fair, but how can it be fair to target such announced in the June 2010 Budget were consistent families, by asking them to make a greater contribution with those promises. In his Budget speech, the Chancellor to reducing the deficit, while exempting families with said that earnings of up to £84,000 a year that are spread equally “we have decided to freeze child benefit for the next three years. between both parents? This is a tough decision, but I believe that it strikes the right Fewer than one in 10 of the families from whom child balance between keeping intact this popular universal benefit, benefit is to be taken away contain two higher rate while ensuring that everyone across the income scale makes a taxpayers; I think that the number is 130,000 families. contribution to helping our country reduce its debts.”—[Official Almost all the remainder, therefore, will or may be in a Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 173.] weaker position to bear such a loss of benefit than those households with two persons earning up to £84,000 Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab) rose— a year between them. When I corresponded with the Treasury, the threshold Mr Chope: I will not give way. I want to put my points for higher rate tax was £43,876. Since then, despite on record, and it is a very short debate. If I have time rising inflation—there has been a 3.1% increase in the later on, I will take some interventions. retail prices index in the last year—the starting rate for The Prime Minister and his predecessors have so higher rate tax has been reduced by £1,400, while the frequently professed their support for “hard-working threshold for 2013-14 is still unspecified. Therefore, families” that the expression has become a political even more families will be affected by this change than cliché. How extraordinary, therefore, that the Government was originally envisaged. are still persisting with a policy that will undermine The policy that we are discussing today has never those hard-working families, especially those families in been properly thought through. By all accounts, it was the squeezed middle. What families could be more hard included in the Chancellor’s speech at the 2010 party working than those 55,000 or 60,000 single parent families conference at the last minute, after an earlier plan to where the lone parent works long hours in a demanding announce the withdrawal of child benefit from all children job to earn more than £43,000 a year, thereby qualifying over the age of 16 was scrapped. That is why the early as a higher rate taxpayer and a victim of this policy? estimate of the contribution that this policy will make Such families also often have very high child care costs. towards reducing the deficit was £1 billion. That early In the league table of hard-working families, they are estimate was wrong, but in typical Treasury fashion the closely followed by two-parent families where the Government now say that anyone who opposes the breadwinner supports a spouse who cannot work, whether withdrawal of child benefit must come up with an because of disability, long-term sickness or the need to alternative means of producing £2.4 billion a year to go support a child who is disabled or sick. towards deficit reduction. 243WH Child Benefit21 FEBRUARY 2012 Child Benefit 244WH

[Mr Chope] transferrable tax allowances would take some time; we would need to have draft legislation and any such It is worth reminding ourselves that families are allowances probably could not be implemented by January already contributing to the reduction of the deficit 2013, when the Government have committed themselves through the freezing of child benefit. That policy alone to impose this burden on higher rate taxpaying families. will save about £1 billion in 2013-14 and the total The Government have missed a big opportunity on contribution that it will make during the three-year transferrable tax allowances, and I hope that my hon. freeze is about £3 billion. In addition, many of the Friend the Minister will have time to explain why that families who are affected by withdrawal of child benefit happened—because, as I have said, introducing those will lose £550 a year in basic child tax credit from this allowances was a Government policy that had been April onwards. announced—and also why the Government recently In responding to this debate, I expect the Minister to reconfirmed that they have no intention whatsoever of argue that he is in pre-Budget purdah and that he will proceeding with transferrable tax allowances. treat what I have said as a representation, but I want I will give my hon. Friend the Minister some time to him to say specifically why the Government’s proposal respond to this debate, but I should like to make some to increase the tax burden on hard-working families is other points. I think that the Liberal Democrats are not being defined as a tax increase but as an expenditure rather in favour of the policy of withdrawing child reduction. We know that the Chancellor has always benefit from higher rate taxpayers, because they want to been keen to present his deficit reduction plan in terms remove as many tax benefits from higher rate taxpayers of achieving a fair balance between Government as possible. But of course the Liberal Democrats would expenditure reductions and tax increases. Without getting also like that policy to be dressed up as an expenditure into an argument about the extent to which the original reduction, because that expenditure reduction would be target of expenditure reductions has been missed, I balanced with a tax increase and therefore there could must ask: is it not disingenuous to regard the withdrawal be an additional tax increase on top of removing child of child benefit in terms other than a tax increase? After benefit from higher rate taxpayers. That would also take all, the antecedents of child benefit lie in the concept the pressure off finding genuine reductions in expenditure, that there should be a higher tax allowance for those which would be achieved by reducing the size of the with dependent children than for those without dependent state. children. In essence, the Government’s policy is to remove that tax allowance and thereby increase the tax burden. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can address that issue in his response to the debate, because there is a real definitional problem here. The way that the Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): My hon. Friend makes Government are proposing to introduce this tax penalty a powerful case. Does he share my inclination to believe on higher rate taxpayers with children is effectively to that the Government might be able to extricate themselves require the family to declare whether or not the taxpayer from the set of powerful problems that he describes or their partner are in receipt of child benefit, and then through some combination of a transferrable child tax the taxpayer would be taxed 100% on that child benefit. allowance and the universal credit system? Surely, that is a tax increase rather than an expenditure reduction. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a really good As a contribution to this debate, the Institute for point. Many of us thought, because we went into a Fiscal Studies has produced a devastating but none the general election committed to having transferrable tax less very useful report, and I hope that some of the allowances and to promoting family values, that those issues identified in that report, which my hon. Friend allowances would be implemented. Although there was the Minister will probably have been studying closely provision in the coalition agreement for the Liberal since it was published about a fortnight ago, will be Democrats to abstain or vote against those allowances, addressed in his response to this debate. it was expected that the Conservatives would introduce them and that the House would have an opportunity to Why do the Government want higher rate taxpayers judge them. with children to make a greater contribution towards deficit reduction than higher rate taxpayers without A lot of the difficulties that have been brought about children? Surely, it would be fairer if all higher rate as a result of the analysis of the proposal to remove taxpayers contributed equally towards deficit reduction. child benefit come from the fact that we have abandoned Any changes in the higher rate tax band needed to the idea of using the tax system to say, “Well, if you’ve achieve that aim would be simple, fair, easy to collect got two equivalent families, one with three or four and difficult to avoid. In other words, they would meet children and the other without any children then the all the original objectives of a good tax, unlike the costs of the family with children must be greater than Government’s current proposals, which, as I have said, those of the family without children, and therefore have been the subject of withering criticism from the there should be a greater tax allowance for the family IFS. In its report, the IFS estimates that £90 million of with children than for the family without children.” the supposed yield from this new policy would be That is the basic principle. We could have restored it or uncollectable, that £60 million would be lost through indeed enhanced it by having transferrable tax allowances, non-compliance, that £280 million would leak through which was a commitment in our manifesto. what is described as tax planning and that, in addition, What depresses me, however, is that in the 16 months there would be administrative costs and a need for extra since October 2010, when the original proposal was Inland Revenue staff. There has not been a defined made by the Chancellor, nothing seems to have been estimate of those additional administrative and staff done to take forward those issues and to try to find a costs, but a rough estimate of at least £130 million has fair solution. Obviously, implementing something like been proposed. 245WH Child Benefit21 FEBRUARY 2012 Child Benefit 246WH

Could anyone think of a more absurd and ludicrous The Government believe that the welfare system must policy to introduce than this one? It increases the complexity remain fair and affordable while protecting the most of the tax system; it adds to the demand for more civil vulnerable, and that work must pay. To achieve that, we servants in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to have had to make tough decisions such as raising the examine the changes that will be made; it encourages state pension age to 67 between April 2026 and April people to fiddle their arrangements; and it exacerbates 2028, not going ahead with the planned £110 above the problem of what happens when people live together inflation increase to the child element of the child tax during a year without declaring it. The Government credit, and not uprating the couple and lone parent were committed to reducing the couple penalty, but this elements of the working tax credit in 2012-13. Those proposal will actually exacerbate it. I do not think that are tough decisions to make, but we have sought to there is anything commendable or sensible about this make sure that they are fair across income distribution. policy, and there are alternatives to it. That is why the Government have, for the first time, I asked the Library if it would be possible to come up undertaken and published a distributional analysis of with an alternative. I do not take this view myself, but if the impacts of the autumn statement 2011 and previous one thought that the way to deal with this issue was to fiscal events. say, “If there are two higher rate taxpayers in a family, After combining the impact of tax, tax credit and they should forfeit their child benefit”, that change benefit and public service spending changes introduced would affect only 130,000 families. It would not generate at the autumn statement 2011 and previous fiscal events, much income, but it would apply to those 130,000 families the analysis demonstrates that the top 20% of households who definitely have a joint income that is greater than will make the greatest contribution towards reducing the £84,000 to which I referred earlier. the deficit as a percentage of their income and benefits I asked the expert in the Library whether it would be in kind from public services. It is fair that higher rate possible to have a system whereby people could claim taxpayers, who are better off, make a greater contribution relief against loss of child benefit by certifying that the to those savings. We are committed to the same approach total gross income of their household did not exceed as we reform child benefits. £85,000. The answer was that, in principle, that would Let me start by saying that we fully understand how be possible, but that it would require joint filing for important child benefit is to millions of families across households with at least one higher rate taxpayer. One the country. For many families, it provides a vital income presumes that having made a return at the end of the boost to parent income, recognising the extra costs that year showing total joint income was no more than they face compared with non-parents. Currently, child £85,000, child benefit would not be withdrawn from benefit is paid to around 7.5 million people, around that household. 95% of whom are women, in respect of 13 million There are ways of generating some income in the children and young people. Child benefit is paid at a context of this policy, but I do not think it is worth the rate of £20.30 a week for the first child and £13.40 for candle, because it cuts across the dearly and long-held each subsequent child. It is a substantial income boost principle that we should have a universal benefit for to families, but it also comes at a substantial cost to the families with children. Exchequer. Child benefit already makes up around 7% of total social security and tax credits spending, and each year those spending levels rise. 12.50 pm Furthermore, we already pay more than £2 billion The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David pounds a year in child benefit to higher rate taxpayers. Gauke): Thank you, Mr Dobbin. It is a great pleasure to At a time when we face constrained resources, we have serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. to focus the resources that we have where they are Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) on needed the most. securing the debate. Government policy towards higher rate taxpayers Mr Chope: If that is so, why was that not said by the and welfare go to the very heart of the challenge to Chancellor of the Exchequer in the June 2010 Budget? tackle the tough economic circumstances that we face Why did he say that he was going to freeze child benefit? today. It is right and fair that we support hard-working Why did he not say what my hon. Friend is now saying? families through these difficult times, and it is vital to It seems that the Government—perhaps because of the ensure that all parts of society contribute to tackling minority party in the coalition—have now shifted their the economic legacy that the Government have inherited. ground and are reneging on a pre-election promise not to interfere with child benefit. When we came to government, we had been through the deepest recession since the war. We inherited an economy crippled by the biggest financial crisis in almost Mr Gauke: As I said earlier, we were conscious that 100 years and the largest budget deficit in our modern we had to take difficult decisions in the run-up to the history. Tackling that deficit is the vital precondition of comprehensive spending review in October 2010. We sustainable growth. Only by tackling the deficit can we had to come up with spending decisions that would provide the certainty, stability and low interest rates enable the Government to have plans that met fiscal that are critical to our recovery and renewing our prosperity targets. In the process of preparing for the spending across the country.Cutting the deficit is a vital precondition review, tough decisions had to be made. When faced of growth. It has meant that we have had to make some with the various options, the Chancellor decided that very difficult choices to tackle the profligacy of the it was necessary to look again at child benefit and previous Government and target spending where it is to ensure that that spending was targeted as best as most effective. possible. 247WH Child Benefit21 FEBRUARY 2012 Child Benefit 248WH

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Given it is needed most, supporting millions of families, and the need to target child benefit as well as possible, can millions of children from birth until the time when they the Minister tell us how much child benefit is being paid leave full-time education at the age of 18 or even 19. for children resident outside the United Kingdom—for instance, in Poland and Lithuania? Would it not be Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Will the Minister appropriate to tackle that issue before dealing with the give way? 40% taxpayer? Mr Gauke: I will give way, but we are eating into the time of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. Mr Gauke: I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend’s concern. I may or may not be able to Julian Sturdy: I want to touch on the transferable tax furnish him with the numbers that he has asked for. allowance, which has already been mentioned. I have None the less, we have looked at that issue on several written to the Treasury about it, and it is a way of occasions. He will not be surprised to learn that we are bringing fairness back into the system. Will the Minister constrained by European regulations relating to social respond to that? security payments, which means that we are not able to address his concern in the way that he would like. Mr Gauke: I am grateful, because I want to respond European economic area nationals can claim child benefit directly on that point. The Government, as stated in the and tax credits as long as they meet the relevant conditions. coalition agreement, want to recognise marriage in the That is the constraint, I am afraid. There is not the easy tax system. We remain committed to that and we will choice that he seeks. introduce proposals at an appropriate time, as is consistent with the coalition agreement. We remain committed to what is in the coalition agreement. Steve McCabe: Will the Minister give way? Mr Chope: Does the Minister mean at a time when the Liberal Democrats have left the coalition? Mr Gauke: I am conscious that I have three minutes left and I have barely begun to deal with the various Mr Gauke: No, I mean within this Parliament, which points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for I assume does not mean what my hon. Friend suggests. Christchurch, who secured this debate. I appreciate that there are a number of concerns We recognise that most higher rate taxpayers are not about how this policy will be implemented and how it super-rich. But, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will impact on hard-working families. We have been has said, clear that the reform needs to be as simple as possible. “a system that taxes working people at high rates only to give it That is why we have sought to withdraw child benefit back in child benefit is very difficult to justify at a time like this.” from households with the higher rate taxpayer and not pursue a complex means-testing regime that would He went on to say: require Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to contact “We simply cannot ask those earning just £15,000 or £30,000 7.8 million households in receipt of child benefit. to go on paying the child benefit of those earning £50,000 or From a customer perspective, this delivery option £100,000.” does not place a burden on all child benefit claimants The debts of the previous Government have to be and it limits the impact on households containing a addressed. Consequently, we have had to make difficult higher rate taxpayer. The Chancellor and I will be choices. By removing child benefit from higher rate working closely with our officials to scrutinise the available taxpayers, the Office for Budget Responsibility estimates options as to how we will implement this policy and that we will save £2.5 billion a year. The savings mean find a sensible way forward. Plans for implementation we can continue to direct child benefit support to where will be set out in the next few months. 249WH 21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Olympics 250WH

London Olympics What an irony, then, that this most sustainable of all Olympic games should embrace as one of its key sponsors a company whose name is inextricably linked with the 1pm worst chemical disaster in human history—a company Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I have no declarable that owns Union Carbide Corporation, which was interests relating to the sustainability of the London responsible for up to 25,000 deaths that have been Olympics, other than that more than a decade ago I was directly associated with the Bhopal gas tragedy in India. the founding chair of the all-party group on the Olympics. To this day, the company has failed to remediate the We formed the group to encourage a then hesitant Bhopal site: the water table is now so contaminated that Government to bid for the Olympic games. My father children in Bhopal are born with deformities at 10 times was an Olympian in 1936, playing as a Scotsman for the the rate elsewhere in India. In this debate, I will claim British football team—those were the days when the that the Dow Chemical Company, which owns Union Scottish Football Association had no qualms about Carbide Corporation, has failed to live up to the high joining the football associations of the other home corporate social responsibility standards that are supposed nations to field a strong British team. My point is to characterise the Olympic movement across the globe simply this: if I am critical of aspects of the 2012 games, and the London games in particular—standards that it is not because I am or ever have been antipathetic to Lord Coe, the chairman of LOCOG, referred to in his the Olympics; it is because I care passionately that the evidence to the Select Committee on Culture, Media games in London this summer should be the best ever and Sport as ethical, social and environmental. staged and that nothing should be allowed to bring them into disrepute. Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that Union Carbide is At the start, let me make common cause with the different from Union Carbide India, and that Union Minister in applauding much of the work done by the Carbide was bought by Dow nearly 12 years after the Olympic Delivery Authority in achieving so much of Bhopal disaster? It would be good to clarify ownership. the vision of an Olympics that respects sustainability. I praise the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Barry Gardiner: I assure my hon. Friend that I will Games and Paralympic Games for becoming the first address that point later in my remarks. games organising committee to be certified to the British standard 8901 specification for sustainability management The sustainable sourcing code published by LOCOG systems for events. states: I recognise that the Olympic Delivery Authority for “Sustainability is one of a number of core elements which London 2012 is creating venues, facilities and infrastructure together represent what value for money means to LOCOG. As a result it will place a high priority on environmental, social and that will leave a lasting social, economic and environmental ethical issues when procuring products and services for the Games. legacy for London and the UK while minimising any This means we want to do business with responsible suppliers and other adverse impacts during the design and construction licensees; companies who treat their staff and sub-contractors of the Olympic park, venues, infrastructure and housing. well, who understand the nature of the products and materials The creation of new infrastructure, sporting facilities they are supplying, and who recognise their responsibility to and housing in an area currently experiencing high protect the environment and foster good relations with their local levels of deprivation will help to create neighbourhoods communities.” and vibrant places where people will want to live and The Minister is here today to respond to this debate work after the games are over. Communities are being on behalf of the Secretary of State, who is, after all, the reconnected by the building of more than 30 bridges chair of the Olympic Board. With reference to the across the waterways, railways and roads that currently sustainable sourcing code, I challenge the Minister to divide the Olympic park area. All that is good. provide justification on three distinct points relating to The ODA has also sought to minimise carbon emissions the appointment of Dow Chemicals Ltd as a sponsor associated with the development and to optimise efficient of the London Olympics: first, the propriety of the water use—indeed, many of the construction materials procurement process itself; secondly, Dow’s legal have been brought on site by barge via Prescott lock to responsibility for Union Carbide and the consequences reduce road traffic congestion. To reduce the risk of of the Bhopal tragedy, which my hon. Friend the hon. flooding in the Lea river valley, 100 hectares of new Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael green space has been created. The ODA has worked Connarty) mentioned; and thirdly, the wider ethical with the construction industry to source environmentally concerns about Dow’s practice as a company and its friendly and ethically produced materials to produce a suitability as a sponsor. low-carbon construction footprint. Even rubbish and I want to be sure that the Minister has no grounds to waste have been thought through: a contractor has been think that I have misled him, so I ask him to intervene engaged specifically to compact and transport waste on me at any stage if he thinks that I have misrepresented from site by barge, and 90% will be recycled or reused. a fact pertaining to the case. If he does not I will assume For all that, John Armitt, the ODA’s chairman, and that, although he may disagree with the conclusions I Dennis Hone, its chief executive, deserve Parliament’s draw, he none the less accepts the facts as I have stated thanks and praise. On the site itself, the ODA has spent them. in excess of £1.8 million cleaning up the toxic legacy of chemical contamination that blighted the area. The The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, remediation of the site has brought the land back into Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): To pick up public use and has been a wonderful focus to improve on the hon. Gentleman’s kind invitation, I might intervene the environment and quality of life for people in that if I am so concerned, but it is also possible that I will part of London. want to reserve my remarks until the end in order to 251WH London Olympics21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Olympics 252WH

[John Penrose] announced saving. That prompts several further questions. What discussions did the Department, the ODA and wrap them all up in one go. Therefore, if I do not LOCOG have about the decision to put the wrap up for intervene, it is not because I necessarily accept what he sponsorship? Did the International Olympic Committee is saying. I will deal with it either then or later. put any pressure on LOCOG to provide a niche for Dow as a sponsor of the London games? If the Government Barry Gardiner: The Minister will make the response simply wanted to achieve savings in the original budget, that he wishes to make. why did they not press on with the Architen Landrell wrap, which would have shown a saving of £5.5 million Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate against the original budget and given the project to a my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. His British company? concerns are shared more widely in the House. Will he The ODA procurement policy on the Olympics states: also take it that those of us who do not intervene agree “As a public body the ODA is required to operate in the with the facts that he is presenting? procurement framework set out by European Union Procurement Legislation and UK Regulations.” Barry Gardiner: Yes indeed. I am grateful to my right Was that the reason why the procurement of the wrap hon. Friend for his intervention. was passed from the ODA to LOCOG—LOCOG is not First, I will raise my concerns about the chronology, a public but a private body and was therefore not openness and transparency of the Olympic wrap obliged to follow the standard EU and UK procurement procurement process. I understand that just three months rules? after Dow was confirmed as an official partner of the Another company, the Nottingham Textile Company, International Olympic Committee, LOCOG chose the is adamant that it submitted an expression of interest Olympic stadium wrap as one of the areas of the Olympic before the deadline of 18 February. It heard nothing for budget that would be cut. I accept that that was a a long time and eventually inquired why it had received perfectly proper response to the spending review, but no response. The company was told by LOCOG that its reports from LOCOG at the time estimated savings submission had been too late. Will the Minister undertake from the wrap at £7 million. It was also reported at the to check the date on which Nottingham Textile Company’s time, by the tenacious Sunday Express journalist Ted submission was received by LOCOG and whether, in Jeory, that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media fact, it was in time? and Sport had been informed that finding a private Let me be clear: I believe that the Government quite sector partner for the wrap was highly likely—that was properly wish to achieve savings in the cost of the in an e-mail from the Department on 16 December. We Olympic games. I also believe that Dow Chemicals was now know from Architen Landrell, a UK company putting pressure on the IOC to find a way for it to based in Chepstow, that it was appointed under a tier 3 become a key sponsor with sector-exclusive marketing contract by Sir Robert McAlpine, the main contractor rights for the London games. I believe that LOCOG for the stadium’s construction. Architen Landrell was wished to assist the IOC in that endeavour and therefore asked to produce eight test panels and give a final suggested that £7 million could be saved by taking the costing for the stadium wrap, which it did, at a price of wrap away from Architen Landrell and procuring it approximately £1.5 million. under a sponsorship deal with Dow. I believe that the Two questions arise from that. Why did the Secretary Government knew that a sponsorship deal was being of State believe it was highly likely that a private sponsor negotiated and were content to collude with the IOC would be found for the stadium wrap? Why were the and LOCOG to facilitate a major IOC sponsor and to media given the figure of £7 million as the projected pretend to the public that in doing so, they were saving saving, when the actual saving was known to be only £7 million. In short, the procurement process was rigged £1.5 million? in favour of Dow Chemicals. It was a sham. On 8 February 2011, it was reported that the tendering process for a company to sponsor the wrap would go Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I congratulate ahead, with expressions of interest due by 18 February. the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate, That was an extraordinarily short time in which to and I agree with much of what he says. I hope he does source a major supplier. The public might consider it not mind my adding that Dow Chemicals has or shares inconceivable that only 10 days were allowed for such a responsibility for 96 of the US’s so-called superfund major tender, unless there had been clear and ongoing toxic waste sites, which are the most polluted sites in the discussions with potential partners before the entire United States. That makes it one of the world’s announcement. In a recent response to a written question most polluting companies. Given that the emphasis is to the Department, I was told that the shortest period on a green Olympic games, it is hard to imagine a less that the Department had allowed in the previous 12 months appropriate partner. for any tender where the contractor would be paid more than £1 million was 28 days, yet LOCOG allowed only Barry Gardiner: I am delighted to have spared the 10 days for someone to bid to pay a sum, publicly time to give way to the hon. Gentleman, who makes an estimated to be £7 million, to sponsor the wrap. Does important observation. I will come back to that in the the Minister think that LOCOG would have set the final section of my speech. tender window at a mere 10 days if Dow Chemicals had Sadly, LOCOG is a private organisation that is not not already been lined up as a sponsor? subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000. On In his letter to London assembly member Darren 18 December last year, I therefore wrote to Lord Coe, Johnson, Lord Coe said that the Government took chairman of LOCOG, asking many of the above questions the decision to ditch the wrap in order to achieve the and many more. To date, he has not seen fit to answer 253WH London Olympics21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Olympics 254WH them. When asked on 24 January this year in the Select dealt with under any pre-existing settlement. In New Committee whether he thought it York, Dow’s wholly owned subsidiary UCC has pleaded “appropriate for London 2012 to be so closely associated with a that only Indian courts can order it to remediate the company like Dow Chemicals”, site; but in India, both Dow and UCC have pleaded that the Secretary of State replied: the Indian courts have no jurisdiction over them. “Obviously it is a decision for LOCOG, but it is a decision that, Dow has consistently claimed to the Indian authorities as a result of the controversy that we had last autumn, I looked that Dow and UCC are independent entities and that into very carefully.After looking at it very carefully, I…wholeheartedly on those grounds Dow should be held immune from supported the decisions that LOCOG had taken.” prosecution in relation to the Bhopal disaster. Documents He went on to justify Dow’s involvement, saying that made public in The Independent by Nina Lakhani two “they did not own Union Carbide at the time of the Bhopal weeks ago, however, have revealed that Dow Chemicals disaster in 1985”— secretly traded through a network of intermediaries to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for avoid a legal ban imposed after the Bhopal tragedy on Linlithgow and East Falkirk. In fact, it happened in the sale of UCC products in India. The documents 1984, but that was perhaps just a simple slip of the prove that, far from being a separate company, Dow tongue by the Secretary of State. He also said that Dow Chemicals controlled and manipulated its wholly owned did not own Union Carbide subsidiary, setting prices and setting up supply chains “at the time of a final settlement with the Indian Government in to secure profits for Union Carbide products that in 1989” India were illegal. As Tim Edwards from the Bhopal and added that Medical Appeal said, “that has been upheld three times in the Indian Supreme Court”— “these documents...show Dow shielding UCC and obstructing justice. If however Dow is also misrepresenting its relationship twice, in fact—which made him confident that with UCC, then it is obstructing justice and shielding itself from “it was a very reasonable decision.” trial. Either way, LOCOG’s insistence that Dow is a fit sponsor Many commentators have found it frankly astonishing for Britain’s Olympics appears perverse.” that both LOCOG and the Secretary of State seem to In a letter addressed to IOC President Jacques Rogge, have taken Dow’s claims regarding those cases at face a copy of which was sent to Lord Coe, V. K. Malhotra, value and repeated Dow’s press lines verbatim. Surely the acting president of Indian Olympic Association, the Secretary of State knows that when someone purchases stressed that there were active court cases against Dow. a company, they purchase both its assets and its liabilities. He said: Before the Minister repeats his Secretary of State’s “A false campaign has been launched by the Dow Chemicals evidence to the Select Committee, where the right hon. saying that the matter has been settled. It is not correct. The case Gentleman opined of Bhopal: is still pending in the court and no final compensation has been “I do not believe that Dow were responsible and I think we made.” should support them as a company”, Why have LOCOG and the Government chosen to let me ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that believe Dow Chemicals over the acting president of the Dow’s wholly owned subsidiary, Union Carbide Indian Olympic Association? Corporation, is wanted by courts in India on criminal charges of culpable homicide? Because UCC is considered Let me repeat the words of LOCOG’s sustainability to be a fugitive from justice in India, and because Dow code: wholly owns UCC but has not produced it in court, I “This means we want to do business with responsible suppliers understand from legal advice that I have taken that that and licensees; companies who treat their staff and sub-contractors puts Dow in the position of sheltering a fugitive from well, who understand the nature of the products and materials justice. Does the Minister’s own legal advice concur they are supplying, and who recognise their responsibility to protect the environment and foster good relations with their local with that? communities.” Is the Minister aware that Dow Chemicals itself is a named respondent in public interest litigation in the When LOCOG awarded the sponsorship contract to Madhya Pradesh high court, seeking remediation of the Dow, was it aware of the pending criminal charges for abandoned Union Carbide factory site? Is he aware that culpable homicide against Dow’s fully-owned subsidiary Dow is a named respondent in a forthcoming curative UCC in the Bhopal criminal court? Was LOCOG aware petition in India’s supreme court that aims to address that Dow’s fully owned subsidiary, UCC, was declared the inadequacies of the 1989 civil settlement made by by that court as an absconder from justice as long ago Union Carbide of $470 million—a figure that equates as 1992, and that the company remains an absconder to approximately $600 per victim? Compare that with from justice to this day? what happened in the Gulf of Mexico and the payout that the American Government demanded of BP. By John Penrose: I am conscious of the passage of time some ironic coincidence, the hearings on the petition and want to make one point en passant, in case I do not were granted on 28 February 2011—the same day the have time to cover it. The hon. Gentleman asks whether sponsorship contract closed—by a five-judge bench LOCOG was aware of the situation when it awarded that included India’s chief justice. the sponsorship contract. I am not clear whether LOCOG Union Carbide is also subject to a civil action in the was aware of it. I understand that he has already asked southern district court of New York. The action relates LOCOG that question, and LOCOG is the body who to the ongoing contamination in Bhopal through chemical can answer it. However, he should bear in mind that dumping by the company in and around the factory. LOCOG did not award the sponsorship contract: it was Significantly, the US court accepts that that is a distinct awarded by the International Olympic Committee, not case from the 1984 disaster and that it has not been by LOCOG. 255WH London Olympics21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Olympics 256WH

Barry Gardiner: The Minister really needs to get a She concludes: much better brief because the Olympic programme “I would like to see Dow take responsibility for the Bhopal contract was the contract awarded by the IOC. The tragedy and finally ensure that real justice is achieved for the contract for the stadium wrap was taken away from the victims and the families of those who died. This would be a true ODA and put to LOCOG precisely because LOCOG Olympic legacy.” was in charge of sponsorship contracts. If the Minister Finally, I turn to the wider issues regarding Dow’s does not know that, he does not understand the core of reputational and ethical suitability to be an Olympic this debate. partner. In relation to ethical sourcing, the Olympic Delivery Authority guidelines on procurement policy John Penrose: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman if I state: have misunderstood him. When he was discussing “The ODA will seek to work with suppliers who have a good sponsorship, I thought he was talking about becoming track record in human rights and who use goods and materials a sponsor of the Olympic movement. I have been using that have been produced ‘ethically’. This includes seeking suppliers a different term and have been talking about the contract who operate within the laws of their country and who do not have for the Olympic stadium wrap as a commercial supplier discriminatory practices.” deal. If he is using the word “sponsorship” to cover Bearing that in mind, it is difficult to see how LOCOG both those terms, of course, I appreciate what he is could justify appointing Dow as a sponsor, given the saying and I will happily adjust my language to match facts that were known at the time about the company his. and its wider regard for law and regulation. The key facts are these. In February 2007, the Securities and Barry Gardiner: The sponsorship was tendered under Exchange Commission in New York imposed a cease a tier 3 arrangement by LOCOG, and it was the body and desist order on Dow Chemical for its improper that awarded that sponsorship contract to Dow Chemical. payment practice and improper accounting. In September 2010, Dow was blacklisted by the Indian Government Was LOCOG aware that Dow is a party to a public for bribing officials in order to fast track licensing of interest litigation suit in India concerning clean up and the chemical Dursban, which has been found to be environmental rehabilitation of UCC’s factory site? If dangerous to human health in the USA. A report by LOCOG was aware of those issues, how were they Innovest indicates that Dow failed to disclose in statements considered in the decision-making process on Dow’s to investors its $2 million settlement of a consumer suitability as a partner for London 2012 on ethical, fraud lawsuit brought by the New York State Attorney- social and environmental grounds? Did LOCOG seek General in 2003. any further legal or other advice in relation to the issues mentioned, other than that given by Dow and its representatives? Jason McCartney: On a point of order, Mr Dobbin, I would like to hear the Minister’s response. A lot of Last month, the procurement process and the Dow questions are being posed and I would really like to sponsorship deal suffered its biggest blow to date. Meredith hear the Minister’s response. Alexander, one of the 12 sustainability commissioners, resigned in protest over what she believes was the Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): I am sure that the Member airbrushing of Dow out of Bhopal and into the Olympics. leading the debate would like to hear the Minister’s She has made her case as follows: response as well, but unfortunately time is running out. “In 2010, the International Olympic Committee appointed If the Member who is in charge of the debate wants to Dow as an international sponsor for the Games. This decision get complete answers, he must take that into consideration. was taken in Geneva, and the commission had no ability to take a stand. Then last year, LOCOG, the London Games organiser, invited companies to tender for a major contract to provide a Barry Gardiner: Since then, earlier this month, Dow wrap for the main Olympic stadium. Dow won this bidding Chemical lost its bid to overturn anti-trust fines totalling process.” in excess of ¤25 million imposed by the European That is the point the Minister failed to appreciate. Union for its part in colluding to fix prices of chloroprene Meredith Alexander goes on: rubber. Just last week, Dow was penalised and heavily “Many groups and individuals raised questions and finally fined for underestimating the greenhouse gas emissions the commission was asked to investigate. I was shocked to see that from its Grangemouth plant in Scotland. the result of our investigation was a public statement from the What is perhaps most incredible is that the Chairman commission that essentially portrays Dow as a responsible company. of the Commission for a Sustainable London 2012, I had been providing information about Bhopal to commission Shaun McCarthy, has gone on record as saying: members and I was stunned that it publicly repeated Dow’s line that it bears no responsibility for Bhopal. I did everything I could “LOCOG carried out its due diligence exercise with regard to to get the statement corrected or retracted. When it became reputation risk in relation to this procurement. At the time, when apparent that this would not happen, I realised that the only way the bids were being considered in early 2011 LOCOG found no to ensure that my name was not used to justify Dow’s position current media, political or NGO commentary that would give was to resign.” cause for concern.” As ever, Meredith Alexander makes the best riposte. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Will the hon. She has said: Gentleman give way? “Even a twelve year old could have found them”. The Minister is not a 12-year-old, and he knows that Barry Gardiner: No, I will not. Meredith Alexander the public are not naive either. He must not reply with a goes on: speech that is long on examples of sustainability and “And the only way to ensure that the victims’ side of the story good practice but short on answers to the questions that was told was to do so in public.” I have posed about Dow. To assist the Minister in 257WH London Olympics21 FEBRUARY 2012 London Olympics 258WH preparing for the debate, I sent all the questions I would with his support for that, and I hope that hon. Members be raising to his office—[Interruption.] I did so at on both sides of the House will continue to provide 3 o’clock this morning, to enable him to come to the such support. House prepared. Incidentally, I should mention that the reason why I Today, the Minister should have the courage to stand am responding to the debate rather than the Minister up and accept that Dow is not a fit and proper company for Sport and the Olympics is that he is opening an to be a sponsor of the most sustainable Olympic games iconic sports facility in Durham, which will be part of ever staged. If he does so, everyone would accept that the nation’s sporting legacy. I am therefore responding although a mistake had been made, the Government on his behalf. have the determination to put it right. If he does not do The limited amount of time available means that all I so, he must accept that a cloud will hang over the can say is this. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman is London games. They will be tainted by a sham procurement aware, LOCOG is an independent company. The process and a sponsor that has shown it is contemptuous Government have one board member out of 19 or 20. of the law, defiant of regulations, willing to engage in Most of the decisions he is criticising were taken by bribery and corrupt practices, but indifferent to the LOCOG, and asking the Government to respond on continuing suffering of thousands of human beings. behalf of a private organisation on which we have one board seat is, I am afraid, shooting at entirely the wrong Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Minister, as I am sure you target. are aware, you only have two minutes. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and, indeed, I doubt anybody here would disagree with his point. I am sure that everybody here shares his concern 1.28 pm to ensure that there is justice for the victims of the Bhopal disaster. As another contributor to the debate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, mentioned, there is a difference between legal liability Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): Thank you, for the company that Dow Chemical bought after the Mr Dobbin. I am, indeed, aware that I have only two awful tragedy at Bhopal—as he rightly observes, that minutes. I am very sad about that, because many important persists; when someone buys a company, they inherit its points have been raised and there is virtually no time to legal liabilities as well as its assets—and being morally respond to them. responsible for causing the problem. Those two things I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Brent North are linked but distinct. We need to be careful in how we (Barry Gardiner) start his remarks by pointing out that talk about responsibility. He was using that term rather there has been a great deal of cross-party support for loosely throughout his remarks. I am terribly sorry to the entire Olympic bid process, of which he is a long- have run out of time but, fundamentally, the answer standing supporter, and for maintaining and delivering to the vast majority of the hon. Gentleman’s questions the most sustainable Olympics ever. I completely agree is: ask LOCOG. 259WH 21 FEBRUARY 2012 Flood Defences 260WH

Flood Defences Agency and local residents on the subject dates back to before I was elected in 2010. The Minister knows the background only too well following our extensive 1.30 pm correspondence, but for the sake of colleagues, I will Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): outline the salient points. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Northmoor weir, like all paddle and rymer weirs, is Mr Dobbin. manually operated by lock-keepers who pull the paddles According to the Association of British Insurers, and rymers out of the weir system to adjust the water Oxford West and Abingdon is the constituency with the levels. The weir has been operating in that way for more 49th highest flood risk in the UK, with more than 2,000 than 200 years. Northmoor weir was extensively refurbished homes and businesses at significant risk of flooding. in 1995 and given a 40 to 60-year lifespan. Between That assessment excludes risks associated with surface 2008 and 2010, however, the Environment Agency decided flooding caused by heavy rainfall. Despite the high level to conduct extensive health and safety tests on the of local flood risk, the Oxford flood risk management weirs. It is unclear why it suddenly decided to do so, scheme received such a low cost-benefit analysis that given that the relevant legislation dates back to 1992, even under the new “all or part or none” funding before the refurbishment of Northmoor weir, and given provisions, it will be necessary to find non-Department that there is no record of a serious injury, which might for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs funding for reasonably be supposed to have triggered such a response. 92% of the project, or approximately £127 million of The report, by HJ Consultants, was of the opinion the £133 million project. At the same time, in Abingdon, that it was only a matter of time before there was a where nearly 500 homes and businesses were flooded major injury on the paddle and rymer weir. That is badly in 2007, neither of the flood storage proposals for despite the fact that the only injuries recorded under the the River Stert or the River Ock reached even that level safety, health and environmental reporting and management of cost-benefit threshold: they were rejected outright as system since 2000 are strains, sprains and splinters. “not economically viable”. Even before the introduction of that system, the assessor Those decisions have been disappointing to many, could only record one brain haemorrhage, in 1991, that especially those whose homes and families are at risk of may or may not be attributed to the pulling of a paddle flooding, but everyone understands that we are in a and, before the introduction of safety harnesses, an time of austerity and that the money must go where it incident in which a lock-keeper at Blakes weir fell in. I will do the most good—that is fair. Having said that, we assume that safety harnesses have now addressed that heard just before the recess the good news that there situation. would be a lot of weir work going on: Osney weirs A The consultant found that the loads at the weir and B and Godstow weir B will receive funding. Design exceeded the levels recommended by the Health and and appraisal work for raised flood defences at Lower Safety Executive, but found no evidence that that had Wolvercote, and the Farm road scheme in Abingdon in caused any significant problem in more than two centuries partnership with the Vale of White Horse district council, of use, even though the consultant found that there had will go ahead. This last project’s bid for £40,000 in been no regular programme of health and safety training funding was rejected in December. I am pleased that the offered to lock-keepers, with one lock-keeper last receiving Environment Agency has had a change of heart on its manual handling training more than seven years ago. viability. Just think how many fewer sprains and splinters there I began this debate by outlining at some length the might have been if regular training had been provided flood context in my constituency, and will come on to during that time, and if there was a work pattern that discuss the key issue—funding the replacement for provided a formal break for lock-keepers in the morning, Northmoor weir from flood defence funding—for two as recommended on page five. reasons. The first is to make the Minister appreciate Should the Minister think I am being a little hard on fully that for far too many people in my constituency, lock-keepers, here is what one of them wrote to the the spending of flood defence money is not a bureaucratic Prime Minister on the issue: issue to do with balance sheets. Hundreds of people “My work over the years included the operation of both were made homeless for months in 2007, losing prized Paddle and Rymer and more modern weirs, and I can say that, possessions, mementos and even pets to the floods. with proper training, care and safety precautions, there was very Those memories are still raw. Given the current economic little danger involved. Any equipment can be worked dangerously. The worst scenario was the possibility of misjudging the placing situation, we have had to cut flood defence funding by of a rymer or a paddle in the flowing water: one had the choice 6%. I need to be able to assure those constituents that, between trying to save it or losing it through the weir! It was not a even where money cannot be spent locally, the Government very hard choice! Also, it was not actually lost, and would float are spending, transparently and accountably, each and around in the vicinity until retrieved later.” every penny of available flood defence funding in the That is just one of many similar comments I have best possible way. Anything less than that is unacceptable. received from Thames lock-keepers. Nevertheless, it Secondly, I am not taking issue with flood funding was on the basis of that health and safety report that provision in other parts of my constituency today. My the Environment Agency decided it was imperative to concern, and that of my constituents, is the Environment spend £2.6 million from the flood defence funds to Agency’s programme to replace all paddle and rymer replace Northmoor weir. weirs on health and safety grounds and, in particular, the replacement of the Northmoor weir in the village of Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate Appleton in my constituency.My constituents in Appleton the hon. Lady on securing this important debate, which and elsewhere have opposed the idea since before my of course touches on matters that affect my constituency, election. Indeed, my first meeting with the Environment too. Will she join me in congratulating the Oxford 261WH Flood Defences21 FEBRUARY 2012 Flood Defences 262WH

Flood Alliance for its work, and does she agree that the is gross disproportion between them, the risk being Environment Agency generally takes better decisions insignificant in relation to the sacrifice, the person upon when it takes notice of what the OFA and local residents whom the duty is laid has discharged the burden of have to say? Even if the health and safety case was proving that compliance was not reasonably practicable. accepted, the Environment Agency should be funding the project not from flood prevention money, but from It is clear, therefore, that what is required by law is not some other budget. to eliminate the risk, as I was informed, but to reduce the risk to what is reasonably practicable and to consider the cost of doing so. Any action in which the cost was Nicola Blackwood: The right hon. Gentleman makes grossly disproportionate would not be required by law, a very good point. The Oxford Flood Alliance has and the HSE expected the EA to have considered the stated publicly, and to me personally, that it has significant cost. Indeed, freely available on the HSE website I reservations about the project. found not one but two helpful documents that walked The Environment Agency has stated that the project me through how to do a cost-benefit analysis for will improve the weir’s resilience and speed of operation. a health and safety project, one of which even had a At a meeting of the Environment Agency, Northmoor user-friendly checklist. I am not a lawyer, though, so I and Appleton parish councillors and me in December, asked to see the EA’s legal advice, to see if there were the EA acknowledged that there had never been any grounds for the multi-million-pound health and safety problem with the operation of the weir, even in times of investment that I had failed to grasp. The EA, however, flood. It is important to note that the project will not confirmed that before committing to the full replacement reduce flood risk. The EA specifically confirmed to me of nine paddle and rymer weirs as the only appropriate in writing, and at the meeting of December 2011, that level of response to its legal responsibilities under health the project will not reduce flood risk in any way, and and safety legislation, it had taken no legal advice of that in any case—according to the EA—the number of any kind. properties affected directly by the operation of the weir amounts to five. That comes out at £500,000 per property, The picture is now fairly clear, but before closing, I if we are counting. Nevertheless, the finance will still will express one further concern that has arisen in come from the flood defence budget. discussions about EA plans for Northmoor weir. It is about the really poor standard of consultation and According to the EA in December 2011, the project communication that has marked the process from the has such high priority that it would go ahead even if it beginning. Appleton residents, who will bear the brunt cost £10 million. On hearing that extraordinary statement, of building disruption if the project goes ahead, found I became uncomfortably well acquainted with the health out about the project when there was an application for and safety apparatus of Whitehall, as every good suspension of parking along the route to the weir. constituency MP should. On writing to the HSE, to ask Understandably, that led to outrage in the village and a whether such a position was reasonable, I was told: vigorous local campaign by the parish council and the “The EA has carried out an extensive risk assessment. The aim Weir Action Group, but despite delaying the work for a of the risk assessment is to help the EA identify reasonably year, ostensibly to consult with the local community, practicable ways of reducing or controlling the risks of injury from operating the weirs. As part of this, the EA would need to the only change that the EA has made to the project so consider costs and their likely effectiveness in reducing the risks.” far was the proposal for a change of access route, so that Appleton residents experience less disruption during I have been astonished to learn, however, that EA policy the two years that the work will take. is apparently not to conduct cost-benefit analyses for health and safety projects, even if they come from flood Obviously, if the weir goes ahead regardless of every defence funding, a budget considered so precious that objection I have put forward today, it is clearly preferable all flood defence proposals must be subjected to rigorous that the works route is not directly through the village, cost-benefit analysis. I was told by the EA in December but the local objections, and the objections from some that that was because the policy was to eliminate all on the far side of the river and from others at risk of risk. flooding in the rest of my constituency, are not simply Being joyfully unfamiliar with the health and safety about a works route. They are about the whole justification world until then, I thought that cost-benefit analyses of the project, and its funding from the flood defence might not generally be conducted for health and safety. budget. To characterise them as anything else is simply In fact, the Manual Handling Operations Regulations inaccurate and misleading. 1992, which are the relevant health and safety regulations, state: Other concerns about the quality of consultation have come to me from owners of nearby land considered “The extent of the employer’s duty to avoid manual handling for use in possible access routes. One wrote to me to say: or to reduce the risk of injury is determined by reference to what is ‘reasonably practicable’. This duty can be satisfied if the “At no time has the EA been in direct contact with us (or any employer can show that the cost of any further preventive steps of the relevant landowners I believe). I first heard of the whole would be grossly disproportionate to the further benefit from project in February 2010—the proposed start date for the project their introduction.” then was 1 April 2010! I was then rung by a neighbouring farmer The concept of “so far as is reasonably practicable” was to warn me that the Contractors for the EA were going to come tested in case law as far back as 1949, in Edwards v. and survey our land but…the Contractors…had been unable to National Coal Board, which established that a computation find out who owned our land and had contacted him for our telephone number. I phoned the contractors who paid me a visit must be made in which the quantum of risk is placed on prior to doing the survey. They were perfectly pleasant but I think one scale and the sacrifice, whether in money, time or as shocked as I was that the EA had not been in contact with me. trouble involved in the measures necessary to avert the The survey was duly done but we have never received any information risk, is placed on the other. If it be shown that there or follow up from either the Contractors or the EA since”. 263WH Flood Defences21 FEBRUARY 2012 Flood Defences 264WH

[Nicola Blackwood] My initial reaction was similar: how can the Environment Agency justify spending £2.5 million on a weir when the I am afraid that that example is not isolated. Failure to money could be better spent protecting people and follow up meetings, to contact individuals or to property? I can appreciate people’s frustration with the communicate more widely have been hallmarks of the expenditure of such a large sum of money on the works project so far. and with two summers of disruption in the constituencies The EA accepted in the December 2011 meeting that affected, apparently just to meet a health and safety there had been significant such failures, but that does requirement with little flood risk benefit. My hon. not seem to have stopped it, as is evident from a letter Friend also expressed concerns about the decision to from the chairman of the board of the Environment proceed without undertaking a full assessment of the Agency—briefed, I assume, by his officials—to the Minister. flood benefits of the new structure. I shall take those The letter claims that I believed that the £2.6 million points in turn. being spent on the weir should be transferred to other First, I ought to set out the Environment Agency’s local flood defence schemes. The Minister must know that case for replacing the structure. A succession of weirs I have never made that suggestion, and nor would I. along the Thames, some in my constituency, regulate I said that when other flood defence schemes locally water levels. In a flood event, it is vital that the weir does were being turned down, it was difficult to justify spending not obstruct the flow of water, otherwise the north side £2.6 million on health and safety, which is what it is. I of the river—in the case of the Northmoor weir—will said that flood defence money must be allocated on the flood. grounds of greatest need, wherever that might be. I fully accept that, and my constituents fully accept that, but I Nicola Blackwood: The Environment Agency has am unable to assure my constituents that that is what is confirmed that the replacement of the Northmoor weir happening in this case, because the necessary due diligence will not improve the flood risk. Is the Minister claiming on the project was never done. I said that when every that the replacement of Northmoor weir is to improve flood defence proposal that is granted funding is first flood risk? tested to destruction by EA cost-benefit analysis models, it is incomprehensible that in this case the EA is willing Richard Benyon: I shall come on to that, because to spend millions of flood defence money with no there is a flood risk issue, which I will cover later in my cost-benefit analysis of any kind, with no legal advice remarks. of any kind and with no analysis of alternatives that The Northmoor weir is one of five major weirs being would work for Northmoor weir specifically. replaced as part of a single contract. The other four are I ask the Minister, therefore, to ensure that the EA already under construction or are now in place. The suspends the project until there has been a full and high price tag is a consequence of the size of the transparent cost-benefit analysis. On Wednesday, I discussed structure: the weir is more than 22 metres wide, stretching the project with the Prime Minister, as the MP for the right across the Thames. The replacement has a predicted other side of the weir, so I know that he has also written operational life of at least 60 years, and similar structures to the Minister asking for that to be done. The Prime elsewhere have already proven effective and reliable. Minister is also concerned that we should be able to The problems with the existing weir structure have been defend our flood defence spending fully to the public. known for some time. We will not be able to do so, however, until there is also During flood conditions, Environment Agency staff sound legal advice that this multi-million pound health must lift an effective weight of up to 60 kg to shift the and safety investment is reasonably practicable, and not paddles. That is four times the safe working load grossly disproportionate, and, most sensible of all, until recommended by the Health and Safety Executive. It is we have a genuine Northmoor-specific study to see if just about possible for two people to operate the paddles there are more proportionate options that will meet the together, but at an awkward angle and at twice the safe EA’s genuine health and safety obligations. working load. In the mid-1990s, an attempt was made My constituents face flood risk daily, but they are not to find a cheap and cheerful approach to solving the asking for preferential treatment or for funding of projects problem by replacing the wooden paddles with fibreglass. that do not meet the cost-benefit thresholds set by That reduced the weight of the paddles, but did little to DEFRA. All they want to know is that flood defence solve the real problem. The sheer force of water, particularly money is being spent on genuine flood defence projects, on the deeper paddles, makes the job hard. and that every single penny of that budget can be Two independent reports have been produced on the transparently accounted for. All they want is a fair operational risks involved. As well as the weight, manual playing field. operation of the weir in response to flood alerts means working in difficult weather conditions for several hours. It is dangerous and tiring work. There are many weirs 1.47 pm and gates along this stretch of the river that all need to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for be operated in tandem to prevent flooding of the houses Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): to the north of the river. That is a key point. The I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford structures need to be operated quickly when flooding is West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) on securing predicted, and an injury to a staff member halfway the debate and her reputation around Whitehall as a through would exacerbate local flooding. doughty champion of her constituents. I am delighted to respond to her concerns about the replacement of Nicola Blackwood: First, will the Minister accept the manually operated paddle and rymer weir at Northmoor that, despite those working conditions, there is no record with a mechanised radial gate system. of any serious injury on the weir? Secondly, will he 265WH Flood Defences21 FEBRUARY 2012 Flood Defences 266WH accept that the number of properties directly affected alternative schemes. All of them, because of the design are, as the Environment Agency stated at the December processes that would have to be applied and the further meeting, five? delay, would have cost more. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that it is understood throughout the Richard Benyon: If the weir does not work, properties Environment Agency and my Department that every will be flooded. We can argue that the existing paddle penny that we spend must be spent in the right way. We and rymer weir works perfectly well, but as my hon. ensure that the budgets that we manage go as far as Friend knows, the Environment Agency has received possible, and I will come on to explain why the spending consultants’ reports stating that the working load is way must go ahead. in excess of what one would normally allow for employees. Given that something must be done, the Environment I am sure that that she would agree that she and I as Agency has focused on identifying the cheapest and employers in business would have to take note of advice best way to solve the problem. It looked into the matter that is given. One always tries to do that proportionately, in considerable detail, and I have seen the summary of but it must be understood that the advice was given. It the detailed analysis, which points to the radial gate would be difficult for the Government to sit at arm’s solution that the agency is pursuing. The other options length and ignore advice that the loading is four times would be more expensive, and in some cases there too high and the risks that emanate from that. It is would be no guarantee that they would even work, difficult for Ministers to overrule such advice, but I will because they are untried in other areas. Replacing the talk about that further. weir will not remove risks altogether, but it will reduce The Health and Safety Executive has seen the reports them to a reasonable level for the staff concerned and from the Environment Agency and the Appleton Weir provide more reliable long-term protection for those Action Group and has written back in support of the living on the flood plain to the north. agency’sposition. As a responsible employer,the Environment When reviewing the background to the matter, I also Agency cannot ignore the advice of the Health and considered the steps the Environment Agency has taken Safety Executive. Sitting back and doing nothing is no to consult local residents on the project. Objections longer an option. The weir clearly poses risks to those have been raised, primarily from those who are not at who must operate it and to those live in the neighbouring risk of flooding, but who will suffer increased traffic constituency. An assessment of risk is not just about and disruption during the work, and I entirely understand whether there have been accidents, but about the potential that. for accidents. I am a sceptic of all matters relating to health and safety, and I do not come to the matter as a Nicola Blackwood: That is not entirely accurate. I quisling of the health and safety industry, for that is have received objections to the weir project from people what it has become. I come to it as a sceptic, like my hon. who are at risk of flooding throughout my constituency Friend. I have looked at the matter in great detail, and if and nearby constituencies. I were an employer on the board of the Environment Agency, I would find it difficult to ignore the report. Richard Benyon: I entirely accept that. I am talking That brings me to the flood benefits of the weir, and about the local community, and the most vociferous why they have not been assessed for this project. The objections are about disruption. I do not want to disrupt flood risk in the area is well known. Around 80 houses people’s lives more than we must. I am sure that my behind the north bank have a 1% chance or greater of hon. Friend understands that I want to put on record flooding each year. In flood conditions, the Northmoor that others are strongly supportive. Northmoor parish weir is opened, so that flood water can pass through as council has twice written to the Environment Agency quickly as possible. The relationship between the weir urging it to proceed with the work as soon as possible. structure and flood risk is well understood and would not benefit from further investigation. Doing that would Proposals to replace the five weirs have been considered have added unnecessary and damaging cost to an already by the Thames Regional Flood Defence Committee, expensive project. and it has agreed to include them in the flood defence programme. That is important because the committee is Mr Andrew Smith: If the Minister is relying for this made up of elected councillors from local authorities in part of his argument on the flood prevention benefit the region. They provide a degree of local democratic that he supposes exists, is it not right, as the hon. input and accountability for decisions to allocate funding. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola They will not have taken the decision to allocate £2.5 million Blackwood) said, that there should be a cost-benefit to Northmoor lightly, and they recognise other flood analysis? If that is not made and he is relying on the defence priorities in the region. health and safety part of his argument, how can be Over the past two years, the Environment Agency has justify taking the cost from the flood prevention budget? consulted extensively with local residents and listened Surely, he cannot have it both ways. to their concerns about the scheme. I am sure that many would like to have had more, and I will take up the Richard Benyon: During my long discussions with the matter of the contractor, which causes me genuine Environment Agency, I became convinced that it really concern. The agency has heard what people have been does understand the flood risks. I do not believe that it saying about the increased traffic south of the river and spends money without looking carefully at the alternatives. made substantial adjustments to the plans, at an additional I have seen all eight or nine alternatives that have been cost of £100,000 to the project. presented—many of them were untried and untested as The work has the support of Northmoor parish a means of lifting the paddle and rymers out using council and the Thames Regional Flood Defence mechanical systems—as well as replacements with Committee. Despite limited national funds, the Environment 267WH Flood Defences21 FEBRUARY 2012 Flood Defences 268WH

[Richard Benyon] I understand that there may be areas where consultation could have been improved. I will make every effort to Agency’s board has allocated funding to allow it to ensure that the points that my hon. Friend raised are proceed. The chair of the Environment Agency wrote answered, and I will do so in a letter as we are running to me last week setting out the justification for the out of time. I assure her that I will continue to converse project. I have heard my hon. Friend’s points, and the with her and do my best to minimise the impact on her views she expresses on behalf of her constituents. I have constituents. I want to put it on the record that I fight to considerable sympathy but, as is common, there are two ensure that every penny of money that is spent on flood sides to the story. I am satisfied that this is a case not of alleviation schemes is spent in the best way possible, health and safety gone mad, but of something needing and I hope that she will come to realise that the problem to be done to solve a problem that perhaps should have has been dealt with in the best possible way. been sorted out some time ago. I am sorry, but I do not Question put and agreed to. take the view that, just because there has not been an accident, one may not occur. 2pm Sitting adjourned. 71WS Written Ministerial Statements21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 72WS Written Ministerial COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Statements Integration

Tuesday 21 February 2012 The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I am today publishing “Creating the Conditions for Integration”, the TREASURY Government’s approach to enabling and encouraging integration in communities throughout England. Air Passenger Duty (Northern Ireland) “Creating the Conditions” sets out how integration is achieved when neighbourhoods, families and individuals come together on issues that matter to them. It is based The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe around five key factors: Smith): Last September the Government announced I. Common ground—Shared aspirations and values, and a measures to support air travel to and from Northern focus on what we have in common rather than on difference. Ireland. From 1 November 2011 APD for passengers II. Responsibility—Promoting a strong sense of mutual travelling on direct long-haul routes departing from commitment and obligation. airports in Northern Ireland was cut to the lower short-haul III. Social mobility—People able to realise their potential to rate. To provide a lasting solution, the Government get on in life. launched a further process to devolve aspects of APD IV. Participation and empowerment—People have the to the Northern Ireland Assembly. opportunities to take part and take decisions in local and Today, I can announce that the power to set APD national life. rates for direct long-haul flights departing from Northern V. Challenge to intolerance and extremism—A robust response Ireland will be devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly to threats which deepen division and increase tensions. and provided for in the Finance Bill 2012. Following Most people from different backgrounds get on well devolution, it will be for the Assembly to determine together, feel they belong to their neighbourhood and what level of APD will apply to direct long-haul flights. to this country, and have a sense of pride in the place The rates set by the Assembly will apply to the carriage where they live, but challenges remain in particular of passengers on and from a day to be appointed by places. Building a more integrated society requires collective order, irrespective of when the ticket for the flight was action across a wide range of issues, at national and booked or purchased. local levels, by public bodies, private companies, voluntary and community organisations and, above all, communities Landfill Tax (Scotland) and individuals. “Creating the Conditions” sets out the Government’s views and our role in this process. We recognise that integration is a vital local issue. We The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe will ensure that the integration benefits of national Smith): I am today announcing that the Government programmes and projects are recognised and supported. will introduce legislation in Finance Bill 2012 to correct All Government Departments have an important role a flaw in landfill tax legislation, which means that in tackling barriers to integration, in particular those landfill sites in Scotland have unintentionally been outside relating to long-term social and economic challenges. the scope of landfill tax. Beyond this, integration requires a local response and The definition of a landfill site in landfill tax legislation we strongly encourage local partners such as local refers to environmental legislation. Changes were made authorities, police forces and other statutory bodies to to this environmental legislation which meant that in work together to drive action and to learn from each 1999 sites moved from a framework of licences to a other. To support this we will use tools such as the system of permits. Landfill tax legislation was duly Localism Act 2011 to give people the power to come amended and these amendments were brought into together to take action. We will seek opportunities to effect in England and Wales on 21 March 2000 and support projects that are sustainable through community Northern Ireland on 17 January 2003. However, the or business support and which exemplify positive activities Scottish Government did not introduce the necessary or pioneer new approaches. We are committed to commencement order, thereby unintentionally taking outflanking and challenging extremism and intolerance each Scottish landfill site outside the scope of landfill and we will take the necessary action to do so. tax from the date each new permit took effect. Together, these are fundamental changes to how The legislation will have full retrospective effect from Government Departments and the rest of the public 21 March 2000 to bring Scottish legislation into line sector work in this area. This approach will make with that in the rest of the UK. integration the everyday business of public services, the No action is required by, or additional burden applied private sector and wider civic society, while ensuring to, landfill site operators in Scotland or elsewhere in the local responsibility and the opportunity for everyone to UK. contribute. Copies of the draft legislation and HMRC brief have “Creating the Conditions for Integration” is available been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and are at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ available on the Treasury website at: communities/integration. A copy of this publication www.hm-treasury.gov.uk. will be placed in the Library of the House. 73WS Written Ministerial Statements21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 74WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS international community will support Afghanistan far beyond 2014 and will not end when combat troops withdraw. Farming Regulation Task Force Report During the last month the UK continued to help the Government of Afghanistan build their capacity to The Minister of State, Department for Environment, deliver better public services and economic opportunities Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am pleased for its people. UK support to the Civilian Technical to announce that the Government published their full Assistance Programme helped the Ministry of Counter response to the Farming Regulation Task Force report Narcotics and the Ministry of Public Health develop today. policies and programmes for the Afghan people. The UK also helped more than 3,400 people in Helmand I established the independent Farming Regulation access technical and vocational education and training, Task Force in June 2010. Its report, published in May helping to raise incomes and generate economic growth. last year, covered the full range of the regulatory landscape that affects farming, and set a challenging agenda for Governor Mangal visited Kajaki for a Shura on changing the way we regulate, and how we work with 8 January. He was escorted by Afghan uniformed police. farmers. He travelled by road, which was the first time a provincial governor in Helmand had been able to follow this route We published our interim response in November last for many years. The road move reflects a significant year. At that time I said that Government would be improvement in confidence last year. bold and ambitious in responding to these recommendations. Out of over 200 recommendations In Central Helmand the Afghan National Security we have said an immediate yes to 159, setting out a clear Forces (ANSF) successfully planned, commanded and agenda for implementation, and are actively considering executed Operation Rozi Roshan in Nahr-e Saraj. The a further 31. Some we are exploring through formal operation involved 500 soldiers. Rozi Roshan was completely consultations which are currently under way, and for Afghan-led and represented a significant accomplishment others we are working closely with different parts of the for the ANSF. UK forces, while ready to assist, were food and farming sector to find solutions. Where we present in only a supporting role. have decided that we are unable to take forward a In January the winter weather continued to have a recommendation, we have explained clearly why. tangible impact on insurgent activity. The number of I am proud that farming is taking forward the security incidents was relatively low. However, we must Government’s better regulation agenda by focusing on expect to see these rise as the weather improves. In the risk-based intervention and changing the way we work spring the insurgency is likely to attempt to regain lost with industry and stakeholders to develop solutions in territory and with it the campaign momentum. The partnership. We are committed to achieving this—the ANSF supported by ISAF are prepared for this but we task force report and this response are only the start. should expect challenges ahead, particularly for the ANSF as they take the lead on more operations. However The full response is available on the DEFRA website we continue to make steady progress, illustrated in part www.defra.gov.uk. this month by Operation Rozi Roshan and developments at the Infantry Branch School. We remain on track for the Afghans to assume full security responsibility across FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Afghanistan at the end of 2014. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth Afghanistan Office website (www.fco.gov.uk).

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Review of Consular Evacuation Procedures Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth 14th progress report on developments in Afghanistan Affairs (Mr William Hague): In my written statement of since November 2010. 4 July 2011, Official Report, column 74WS, I informed the House that in light of the challenges posed by the The Prime Minister and President Karzai signed the evacuation of British nationals from Libya, the Foreign UK-Afghanistan Enduring Strategic Partnership document and Commonwealth Office (FCO) had conducted a on 28 January. The document signals our shared vision review of its evacuation arrangements in a crisis. A copy of a secure, stable and prosperous Afghanistan able to of the Review of Consular Evacuation Procedures was maintain its own security and prevent the country from placed in the Library of the House. again being used as a safe haven for international terrorists. This builds on the strong message from the Bonn conference I gave instructions that the recommendations of the last year of the international community’s commitment review should be implemented in full by 31 December to Afghanistan post-2014. The NATO Chicago summit 2011. This statement updates the House on the FCO’s in May and the Tokyo development conference in July progress in implementing the review’s recommendations. will be the point at which the international community The crises of early 2011 were an unprecedented series looks to deliver on the commitments made at Bonn. of challenges for the FCO’s crisis management capability. The Chicago and Tokyo conferences will demonstrate They also presented an invaluable opportunity to learn to the Afghan people and the insurgency that the the necessary lessons and to refine our crisis management 75WS Written Ministerial Statements21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 76WS systems in order to ensure we deliver the best possible Implementing a crisis IT project to design and implement service to British nationals in future. In response to the best practice systems for maintaining reliable data about recommendations in the review the FCO has: British nationals before and during a crisis; Developed a more agile and clear crisis decision-making Adopting the new crisis management plan across all UK structure, based on the Gold/Silver/Bronze crisis response posts overseas, supported by a programme of training and system used by emergency services. As part of this, the FCO exercising; board will be carrying out a high-level training session in Upgrading the FCO’s Crisis Centre to expand its operational early March; capacity and co-locate it with its out-of-hours global response centre. Introduced London Crisis Response Teams made up of trained FCO staff across London who can be rapidly deployed Each crisis throws up a unique set of challenges. We to augment the FCO’s crisis response; attach importance to learning the lessons from each Expanded our crisis training and exercising capability, to one, based on a thorough and objective assessment of deliver an increased level of training across the global network; our response. We are confident that by implementing Improved the use of digital and social media for messaging the recommendations of the review of evacuation British nationals before and during a crisis; procedures, we have made important and sustainable Improved our call handling systems; improvements to our crisis planning and response systems and that this has enhanced the quality of our crisis Launched a project to define our longer-term Crisis IT and communications needs, under which we have successfully response. However, we recognise the need to avoid piloted pre-crisis registration of British nationals via SMS complacency in this critical and unpredictable area of text messaging; work, and will ensure that we continue to carry out Revised our guidance for FCO staff on crisis planning and regular reviews of our systems. response; Designed a new framework for Crisis Management Planning JUSTICE by our overseas posts, which will be in place across the network by the end of 2012; Ministerial Council on Deaths in Custody Increased the numbers of volunteers in our Rapid Deployment Team network, including by expanding the coverage of the Americas team to include South America, and recruiting for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice a new middle east and South Asia team; (Mr Crispin Blunt): The creation of the Ministerial Clarified key policy issues, for example on how costs are Council on Deaths in Custody was announced in 2008 charged in a crisis, in order to ensure that decisions can be and it has been in operation since March 2009. Its taken more quickly during future crisis responses; creation was in response to an independent review of Intensified our contact with others involved in our response previous structures—the Forum for Preventing Deaths to key crises, including private sector companies, chartering in Custody and the Ministerial Roundtable on Suicide. companies etc.; Significant reforms were made to these structures and Developed closer links with Ministry of Defence crisis teams, the council has been working effectively for three years. including by embedding MOD staff in the FCO’s Crisis I am pleased to announce that, following an evaluation Centre; of the effectiveness of the arrangements, the council Increased the numbers of staff dedicated to crisis work in will be funded to continue for a further three-year term. Crisis Management Department. Lord Harris of Haringey has been reappointed as chair I have placed in the Library of the House a table of the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. which provides more detail of how we have implemented The council comprises three tiers, the first of which is the review’s recommendations. a ministerial board, chaired jointly by the Ministry of These improvements to FCO systems and practices Justice and ministerial colleagues from the Department were tested in recent crises, most notably the Bangkok of Health and Home Office. The board brings together floods (October 2011), the evacuation of embassy staff senior leaders across the custodial sectors as well as from Tehran (November 2011) and the sinking of the regulatory and third sector stakeholders to take forward cruise ship Costa Concordia (January 2012). On each an agenda aimed at making custodial settings safer and occasion, we implemented the Gold/Silver/Bronze contributing to a reduction in deaths. command and control system, which promoted clear The second tier is the Independent Advisory Panel on and quick decision making and communication, and Deaths in Custody. This is an advisory non-departmental activated the London Crisis Response Teams, enabling public body. It is chaired by Lord Harris of Haringey us to scale up our crisis response quickly and sustainably. and consists of six independent expert panel members. It will be a priority for 2012 to ensure that these The panel is the principal source of advice to Ministers improvements are fully embedded into FCO processes and the board on measures to reduce deaths in custody. to ensure that we have genuinely upgraded our crisis The third tier is a broad-based stakeholder and planning and response systems. Specific priorities will practitioner group. There are over 100 members of this include: group, representing the interests of families, third sector Regularly exercising the London response to a crisis, including organisations, practitioners from all sectors and the by the FCO board; inspectorate and investigatory bodies.

5P Petitions21 FEBRUARY 2012 Petitions 6P

Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Petitions Innovation and Skills: The Government note the support for the street Tuesday 21 February 2012 traders of Swindon town centre, and the concerns that the future of street trading must be placed on a secure OBSERVATIONS footing. A decision by a Council to designate a street as a street where street trading is prohibited is a local matter for the Council. Concerns about such a decision should BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS be resolved locally. Potential Closure of Peacocks Stores As the Department with policy responsibility for the The Petition of residents of Ogmore national street trading legislation (Schedule 4 to the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the (LG(MP)A), BIS will be consulting in due course on potential closure of Peacocks stores. draft regulations to amend the legislation to ensure The Petitioners therefore request that the House of compliance with the European Services Directive. Commons urges the Government to take all possible We are also giving consideration to extending Schedule 4 steps to prevent the closure of Peacocks stores. of the LG(MP)A to the supply of services in the street And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Huw for gain or reward. Irranca-Davies, Official Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, c. 954.] [P001003] Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, TRANSPORT Innovation and Skills, received 20 February 2012: The Government recognise that the administration of Bradford-on-Avon Station Ticket Office Peacock’s Stores is a matter of concern for its staff, The Petition of users of Bradford-on-Avon station, creditors and customers. Administration is the UK’s main business rescue Declares that the Petitioners regard the Bradford-on- procedure, with thousands of businesses and jobs having Avon station booking office as an essential service and been saved since it was first introduced a quarter of a an essential part of the town, further declares that the century ago. An administrator’s primary objective in Petitioners believe that it is used frequently and in law is to rescue the company. If that is not possible, the preference to the ticket machine, particularly by older administrator must seek to achieve a better result for customers, and that it is widely valued for the information the company’s creditors than if it were put into liquidation, provided and for the services of the booking office staff which can often involve selling on the underlying business in opening and closing the wonderfully refurbished (or part of it) to a new owner. The administrator must waiting rooms. also act in the best interests of creditors as a whole. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of I note from press releases issued by the administrators Commons urges the Government to take all possible that they are engaging with potential purchasers of the steps to ensure that the Bradford-on-Avon station booking business. office remains open. The Government have no power to interfere in the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Duncan operation of individual insolvencies—or wish to do Hames, Official Report, 9 November 2011; Vol. 535, so—as these are matters for the office-holders appointed. c. 409.] Administrators are licensed and regulated professionals, highly trained in their field, with very clear statutory [P000978] objectives to seek to rescue the company or underlying Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: business, where this is possible and appropriate. The proposal for the removal of ticket offices at Swindon Town Centre Category E stations was the recommendation of an The Humble Petition of Swindon residents and visitors, independent study by Sir Roy McNulty on the value for money of the railways. Sheweth that there is support for the street traders of The aim of the study was to examine the overall cost Swindon town centre; that street traders add to the structure of all elements of the rail sector to identify the vibrancy of Swindon town centre; and that the future of options for improving value for money to both passengers street trading must be placed on a secure footing. and to the taxpayer, while continuing to expand capacity Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable as necessary and drive up passenger satisfaction with House urges the Secretary of State for Communities the railway. and Local Government to request that Swindon Borough My Department is currently considering the findings Council review its policy on street trading in Swindon of this independent report but no decisions have yet town centre been made. In deciding which recommendations to And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever accept, we will give careful consideration to the interests pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr Robert Buckland, Official of passengers. Report, 10 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 153.] First Great Western has said it has no current plans [P000963] to close any booking offices. 7P Petitions21 FEBRUARY 2012 Petitions 8P

Bus Services in Sedgefield through bus subsidy for operators and via the national concessionary travel entitlement, which was protected The Petition of residents of Bishop Middleham and in the budget. Fishburn, In many rural areas, community transport can play a Declares that the Petitioners believe that in order to valuable role in preventing isolation. I therefore strongly maintain a reliable rural transport network in County encourage local councils to work in partnership with Durham additional funding needs to be provided for operators and local communities to examine how more rural bus services. flexible services might be provided. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of To facilitate this, my Department recently announced Commons urges the Government to ensure that there is a further £10 million fund for community transport in funding in place to maintain the provision of reliable rural areas. This is in addition to the £10 million allocated rural bus services in County Durham. in March 2011, of which Durham County Council And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Phil received a £182,191 share. Wilson, Official Report, 25 January 2012; Vol. 539, I recognise that local councils are making difficult c. 270.] decisions in the light of reductions in revenue support [P000999] from the Department of Communities and Local Government, but they do have almost total discretion Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: about which services to value when budgeting for the The Government continue to provide significant funds future. These are decisions which must be made locally, for local bus services in County Durham and elsewhere in consultation with the public. 647W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 648W Written Answers to Carer’s Allowance Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of carers that were (a) entitled to and (b) in receipt of carer’s allowance as a result of caring for Tuesday 21 February 2012 someone who was in receipt of (i) disability living allowance and (ii) attendance allowance in the latest [Continued from Column 646W] period for which figures are available. [94318] Maria Miller: The information requested is not available. The National Statistics datasets on carer’s allowance WORK AND PENSIONS do not contain any information on the identity or characteristics of the person being cared for. Similarly, Atos Healthcare the National Statistics datasets on disability living allowance and attendance allowance claimants do not contain any Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Work information on the identity or characteristics of any and Pensions whether the Atos contract for work person caring for the claimant. Some early analysis has capability assessments includes penalty clauses; been undertaken to use additional information to link whether those clauses have come into effect; and the datasets, but to quality assure the results to the whether he has any plans to implement any such standard required for parliamentary questions would penalty clauses. [95410] incur disproportionate costs. Chris Grayling: The Department of Work and Pensions Child Support Agency (DWP) contractual agreement with Atos Healthcare contains performance service levels. The contract also Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for contains financial remedies where there is service level Work and Pensions when he expects the transition to failure based on a pre-estimate of loss to the Department the new Child Support Agency system to be complete. which are described as service credits. [94722] Service credits are considered on a month by month basis taking into consideration any mitigation presented Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement to the Department by the contractor. The Contracts Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Service Credits regime allows the contractor, in certain system. I have asked the child maintenance commissioner circumstances, to recover some or all of the service to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested credit accrued. This mechanism incentivises the service and I have seen the response. provider, following failure, to re-achieve and maintain Letter from Susan Park: the service level position within a reasonable time period. In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the The actual application of service credits is commercial Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive in confidence as, if disclosed; the information may reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance prejudice the commercial interests of the Atos Healthcare and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance and the Department’s future dealings with the Atos Commissioner is currently away I am responding on his behalf. Healthcare or other service providers. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when The contractual performance and service credits are he expects the transition to the new Child Support Agency system monitored and decided by the Medical Services Contract to be complete. [94722] Management Team in accordance with the contractual Following the introduction of the new scheme in late 2012, we arrangement. aim to carry out a process of closing existing CSA cases; however, we intend to have at least a six-month period of live running with Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for new cases before we then start to move the first cases off the old Work and Pensions whether the Atos assessment centre CSA systems. We expect the period of case closure to take around in Glasgow has recently extended its opening hours for three years. The regulations which will govern the detail of this process have yet to be subject to public consultation. Once a case the work capability assessment. [95574] has been closed, parents will then have the choice either to make a family-based arrangement or to apply to the new scheme. Chris Grayling: The assessment centre within Corunna Further details of our plans for the introduction of the new House, Glasgow has been scheduling appointments in statutory maintenance scheme can be found in the Government the early evenings in addition to the normal core hours Green Paper, Strengthening families, promoting parental responsibility: from February 2012. the future of child maintenance, available at the following link: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/strengthening-families.pdf Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether the Atos assessment centre Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for in Glasgow operates a (a) Saturday and (b) Sunday Work and Pensions how many people used the Child service; and if so when this service began. [95575] Support Agency system in the last year; and how many of these were in receipt of benefits. [94724] Chris Grayling: Assessments have been scheduled on a regular basis on both Saturdays and Sunday at the Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement assessment centre within Corruna House in Glasgow Commission is responsible for the child maintenance for several years. The number of assessments scheduled system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner on Saturdays and Sundays has increased since the beginning to write to the hon. Member with the information of 2012. requested and I have seen the response. 649W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 650W

Letter from Susan Park: Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the and Pensions if he will estimate the level of the Child Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Support Agency flat rate threshold if it had been reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child subject to the same annual increase as benefits in each Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance year between 2000 and 2011. [95017] and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance Commissioner is currently away I am responding on his behalf. Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how Commission is responsible for the child maintenance many people used the Child Support Agency system in the last year; and how many of these were in receipt of benefits. [94724] system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Published benefit data is only available up to May 2011, to write to the hon. Member with the information therefore the numbers of parents with care and non-resident requested and I have seen the response. parents have been provided up to this point. Further details of the Letter from Susan Park: Child Support Agency caseload up to December 2011 can be In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the found in the latest Quarterly Summery of Statistics available at: Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive http://www.childmaintenance.org/en/pdf/qss/ reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child QSS_dec_2011.pdf Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance The information you have requested for the year to May 2011 and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance is shown in the following table: Commissioner is currently away I am responding on his behalf. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, if he Number involved Number in receipt of will estimate the level of the Child Support Agency flat rate with a CSA case benefit threshold if it had been subject to the same annual increase as benefits in each year between 2000 and 2011. [95017] Parent with care 1,140,700 336,900 In 2003, the flat rate of £5 per week was introduced within the Non-resident parent 1,121,900 317,900 child maintenance scheme, payable by non-resident parents who Notes: receive any of a number of benefits, including Jobseeker’s Allowance 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100. and Employment and Support Allowance. 2. Figures do not include cases managed off-system 3. Figures reflect the period of 1 June 2010 to 31 May 2011. To answer your question of the percentage increase in benefits; 4. In the above analysis, a parent with care is deemed to be in receipt since April 2000 benefits such as Income Support have been of benefit if they are on income support or income-based jobseekers increased annually by the ROSSI measure of inflation, changing allowance. A non-resident parent is classified as on benefit if they are to CPI inflation from April 2011. If the flat rate threshold lower in receipt of income support, jobseekers allowance or incapacity and upper limits of £5 and £100 had been increased in the same benefit. way as Income Support, the lower and upper limits would have 5. The benefit status of the individual parent with care or non-resident increased to £6.45 and £129.30 respectively. Similarly, the £5 flat parent has been included in the above analysis. The benefit status of rate deduction would have increased to £6.45. the household, i.e. benefit status of the partner of the parent with care or non-resident parent has not been included. Children: Day Care Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what criteria will be used to Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work determine which parent will be subject to the up-front and Pensions what steps he is taking to extend charge for accessing the Child Support Agency. [94750] provision of high-quality childcare for children aged under five. [92371] Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Sarah Teather: I have been asked to reply on behalf of system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner the Department for Education. to write to my hon. Friend with the information requested and I have seen the response. The Government increased the entitlement to free early education for all three and four year olds in Letter from Susan Park: England from 12 and a half to 15 hours per week, from In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the September 2010; and is now extending the entitlement Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive to the 20% most disadvantaged two year olds by 2013, reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance rising to some 40% by 2014. and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance We want to strengthen further the quality of free Commissioner is currently away I am responding on his behalf. early education. As part of a consultation launched in You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what November 2011, we are proposing that local authorities criteria will be used to determine which parent will be subject to require providers to meet one or more quality criteria in the up-front charge for accessing the Child Support Agency. order to be eligible to receive funding. [94750] The Early YearsFoundation Stage (EYFS) framework I ought first of all to state that there is no intention to charge for accessing the Child Support Agency. When the new scheme for all registered early education and child care for using HM Revenue and Customs income data is launched, we will young children under five ensures that parents can be run it for at least six months to ensure it is working and delivering confident of a consistent quality experience for their an improved client service before we introduce charges. At that child whichever provider they choose. The Government’s point, we will begin to close all existing Child Support Agency reform of the framework will reduce paperwork and cases and invite parents to choose whether they wish to apply to bureaucracy for professionals and better support children’s the new scheme or whether they would rather seek to agree their healthy development and future learning. The revised own arrangement between themselves. framework will be implemented from September 2012. The up-front charge for accessing the new scheme will be payable by whoever makes the application. This is because it is Professor Cathy Nutbrown’s review for the Department this person whom we want to pause and reflect whether the for Education is considering how best to strengthen statutory solution is really the best option. staff qualifications and career pathways in the foundation 651W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 652W years to build a work force of skilled, knowledgeable (b) In 2012-13, this household would not be entitled to receive and professional practitioners. She will publish an interim working tax credit and would have income of around £308 per report in March 2012. week. This includes around £19 a week in council tax benefit and £20 a week which is allocated for school meals for both Cold Weather Payments children. (c) The Department for Education is considering options for new eligibility criteria for free school meals once universal credit Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work is introduced. These options will take account of the Social and Pensions how many people in (a) Bexleyheath and Security Advisory Committee’s independent review of passported Crayford constituency and (b) the London Borough of benefits. The Government will consult on free school meal eligibility Bexley have received a cold weather payment in each of proposals during 2012, ahead of the introduction of universal the last three years. [93878] credit from October 2013. From April 2013, support for council tax will be localised and Steve Webb: Gravesend is the weather station linked the household’s reduction in council tax will be determined by the to Bexleyheath and Crayford and the London borough design of their local scheme. of Bexley. The number of benefit units we estimate to Excluding any additional amounts for free school meals or have had a payment in the area covered by the weather reductions in council tax, in universal credit this household would station is in the following table. have income of around £376 per week. (d) Excluding any additional amounts for free school meals or Estimated number of benefit units that received at least one cold weather payment for postcode districts in (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency reductions in council tax if this household was out of work, then and (b) London borough of Bexley under universal credit their income would be around £250 per Weather station Gravesend week. Notes: 2009-10 118,700 1. Part (a) is based on the current system prior to April 2012. 2010-11 119,400 2011/12 10 2. Part (b) is based on the current system in 2012-13. 1 To date. 3. Parts (c) and (d) are based upon universal credit in 2014-15. Notes: 4. Income is defined as net earnings in addition to any benefits or 1. The information provided is management information. Our preference is to tax credits. answer all parliamentary questions using official/National Statistics but in this case we only have management information available. It is not quality assured 5. Council tax of £1,000 a year has been equated to approximately to the same extent as official/National Statistics and there are some issues with £19 a week. the data, for example, figures given are estimates. Actuals are not available. Estimates for 2011-12 maybe revised after the end of the cold weather payment 6. All numbers have been provided in 2011-12 prices and where season, but will still be estimates not actuals. necessary deflated by the GDP Deflator. All numbers have been 2. A cold weather payment is made to an eligible customer when the average rounded to the nearest £1. temperature has been recorded as, or is forecast to be, 0°C or below over seven consecutive days at the weather station linked to the customer’s postcode. (When the temperature criterion is met, the weather station is said to trigger.) Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for 3. Gravesend weather stations is linked both to an area within the London Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of borough of Bexley and Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and also to an 8 February 2012 to question 92516, on council tax, if area outside the London borough of Bexley and Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency. Estimated numbers given are for the weather station as a whole, he will place in the Library a table of aggregated data not for the part of the London borough of Bexley and Bexleyheath and for each local authority showing (a) council tax benefit Crayford constituency linked to the weather station. recipients by age group and family type at September 4. Cold weather payments are made to benefit units. A benefit unit can be a single person or a couple and can include children. 2011 and (b) council tax benefit recipients’ average 5. Some benefit units received more than one payment in a year. weekly award by age group and family type at 6. Estimated numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100. [95008] Sources: September 2011. Postcode district to weather station links: Department for Work and Pensions records. Steve Webb: The available information requested has Records of triggers and estimates of potential qualifiers by weather station: Department for Work and Pensions records. already been placed in the Library, in response to PQ89576, on 20 January 2012, Official Report, columns Council Tax 1021-2W.

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Food Work and Pensions what the income will be of an owner-occupying couple with two children under seven Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Work years receiving school meals costing £2 per day each for and Pensions what proportion of food purchased by whom council tax is £1,000 per year, where (a) one his Department was produced in the UK in each of the member of the couple is working 18 hours per week last five years. [93717] earning £7 per hour, prior to the change in the hours rule in April 2012, (b) one member of the couple is Chris Grayling: The information is as follows. working 18 hours per week earning £7 per hour, after (a) Since 1998 the Department for Work and Pensions the change in the hours rule in April 2012, (c) one (DWP) occupies the majority of its accommodation member of the couple is working 18 hours per week under a private finance initiative (PFI) known as the earning £7 per hour, after the introduction of universal PRIME Contract. Under the terms of this PFI the credit and (d) nobody in the household is working. Department leases back fully serviced accommodation [94874] from its private sector partner Telereal Trillium. This Chris Grayling: The information is as follows. covers a variety of facilities including, where appropriate, (a) Prior to April 2012, this household would be entitled to the provision of Catering Services which is delivered working tax credit and they would have income of around £354 per through Telereal Trillium’s service partner Compass week. This includes around £13 a week in council tax benefit. Group UK, trading as Eurest. They can confirm that They would not be entitled to free school meals. for the year 2011-12 (to date) the percentage of food 653W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 654W procured for the DWP catering contract that has been Chris Grayling: As part of his second Independent produced in the UK is 36%, however, it should be noted Review of the WCA Professor Malcolm Harrington that there are considerable volumes of non-indigenous asked Macmillan Cancer Support (Macmillan) to look products purchased including; tea, coffee, rice, citrus in detail at how the WCA assesses people with cancer and exotic fruits. In addition they also purchase out of and to provide him with recommendations for further UK season, fruits and vegetables. improvements. Macmillan provided compelling evidence The 2010-11 figure was 11% which has previously that the current provision for individuals undergoing been reported as part of normal departmental annual cancer treatment should be changed, they also suggested reporting. With regard to earlier years they are unable that all individuals receiving oral chemotherapy and to provide this information due to the short time given certain types of radiotherapy are placed in the support to respond and as it would take considerable resource to group. go back through historic data it would be a disproportionate The Department accepted there is a need for change. cost. However, we know that cancer and cancer treatment They would also like to highlight the following: can affect individuals differently. The Macmillan evidence shows this. And it shows some people want to work 100% of our fresh beef is British during treatment and are capable of doing so. The 100% of our fresh pork joints is British Department has brought forward proposals based on 100% of fresh milk is British this evidence which would increase the number of people 100% of our shell eggs are UK sourced and Lion marked placed in the support group and reduce the number of face-to-face assessments. We are now consulting on our All of our fresh potatoes and root vegetables are sourced from proposals, particularly seeking the wider views of specialists UK when in season. and cancer sufferers themselves. The consultation lasts until 9 March 2012. Disability Living Allowance Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions whether he proposes that an and Pensions (a) how many and (b) what proportion individual who is DS 1500-registered for the purposes of people were in receipt of the (i) care and (ii) mobility of employment and support allowance (ESA) but who component of the disability living allowance in (A) lives beyond six months from when they are registered, Glasgow South West constituency and (B) Glasgow in will have to (a) re-register as terminally ill and (b) the latest period for which figures are available. [94010] reapply for ESA. [94754]

Maria Miller: The information is contained in the Chris Grayling: The Department considers a person following table. to be terminally ill if they are diagnosed with a progressive disease, and where death is a likely consequence of that The proportion of people in receipt of the care and mobility component of disability living allowance (DLA): May 2011 disease and is reasonably expected within six months. Percentage Percentage Where a terminally ill person has claimed employment of all of all and support allowance (ESA) under the “special rules”, Total in DLA in Total in DLA in Total in receipt of receipt of receipt of receipt of and the Jobcentre Plus Decision Maker has determined receipt care care mobility mobility that the claimant is terminally ill and, as a result, has of DLA component component component component been awarded the ESA support component, the claimant Glasgow 8,550 7,330 85.7 7,6.30 89.2 will not be reassessed for a period of three years. They South do not have to re-register or re-apply for ESA. West parliamentary constituency Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Glasgow 56,580 49,200 87.0 50,410 89.1 Work and Pensions for how many weeks each City local employment and support allowance claimant who has authority not yet been assessed through the work capability Notes: assessment has been waiting for their assessment. 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10, percentages to one decimal place. [95094] 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. Chris Grayling: The Official Statistics do not focus on 3. DLA care and mobility components can be paid together or on their own. benefit durations; therefore there is no information 4. These data are available on the Department’s tabulation tool at: readily available on waiting time to the assessment. http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html Source: The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) regularly DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate, 100% WPLS. publishes official statistics on the outcome of employment and support allowance (ESA) work capability assessment Employment and Support Allowance: Work Capability (WCA). The latest report was published in January Assessment 2012 and can be found on the departmental website at the following link: Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ Work and Pensions whether individuals undergoing index.php?page=esa_wca (a) intravenous chemotherapy and (b) radiotherapy for cancer and claiming employment and support Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for allowance will be subject to the work capability Work and Pensions what the average time was for an assessment. [94089] employment and support allowance (ESA) applicant 655W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 656W between completing the ESA 50 questionnaire and Chris Grayling: Of the 14 providers which held flexible undergoing the work capability assessment in (a) 2009, new deal phase 1 contracts, DWP has negotiated settlements (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [95576] agreed with 12 to date. DWP aims to complete remaining negotiations by April 2012. Chris Grayling: In April 2011 incapacity benefit reassessment (IBR) began, significantly increasing the Employment Schemes: Down’s Syndrome volume of people requiring a work capability assessment (WCA), and in July 2011 a number of changes were Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for introduced to both the IBR and the ESA process. The Work and Pensions if he will meet representatives of changes introduced on the recommendation of Professor the Down’s Syndrome Association to discuss the Harrington, although improving the overall process, administrative requirements of support-permitted had the impact of increasing the time taken to complete work. [95570] face to face medical assessments. Considerable time and effort has gone into training Atos Healthcare professionals Chris Grayling: The supported permitted work rules to deliver the changes introduced and the time taken to in employment and support allowance (ESA) currently conduct medical assessments has decreased over time. allow claimants in both the Support Group and the At any given time there are large volumes of cases Work Related Activity Group to undertake supervised going through the medical assessment journey. DWP work on an indefinite basis without any restrictions and Atos Healthcare are working very closely to reduce (provided earnings are below the £97.50 a week and the the length of the WCA process by improving capacity hours worked do not exceed 16 hours a week) as long as and productivity. the claimant is under the supervision of an appropriate Average time for WCA customer journey: person. 2009 was 39.3 days The permitted work rules strike a delicate but important 2010 was 36.05 days balance between, on the one hand, encouraging claimants 2011 was 44.00 days to build their confidence, undertake some part-time Notes: paid work, and plan a gradual move to sustained employment, while continuing to receive benefit, and, 1. The data supplied are derived from unpublished management information which was collated for internal departmental use on the other, providing the incentive for them to move only. The data supplied have not been quality assured to National off benefit entirely and into full-time work, in line with Statistics or Official Statistics standard and are subject to change. the Government’s overall approach. They should therefore be treated with caution. We are currently considering how the permitted work 2. The average time has been calculated using the Atos Healthcare rules for ESA may change once universal credit is management information relating to the average time to undertake introduced. a work capability assessment as reported against their average actual clearance target of 35 days. The Department is committed to engaging with 3. The average time is calculated using the number of working organisations representing disabled people on an ongoing days between a claimant completing the ESA questionnaire and basis as part of our wider consultation on the implications their work capability assessment and measured at a regional level of our proposals for welfare reform, to ensure that the rather than nationally. social security system supports disabled people and 4. The information has been collated from regional data from 11 those with health conditions in the most sensitive, fair Government regions from 2009 to June 2011 when the Government and appropriate way. As part of this engagement, I offices by region reorganised and reduced to seven regions. would be happy to meet with representatives of the 5. The measurement of the time undertaken to complete the Down’s Syndrome Association. customer journey through to the assessment is heavily reliant on the date which the claimant returns their questionnaire. A significant Employment Schemes: Young People number of claimants return their questionnaires after 25 days. Employment Schemes Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how he plans to distribute payment Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for each individual youth contract wage subsidy and Pensions whether his Department has contingency through the lifetime of the placement. [94875] plans for the potential multiple failure of Work programme providers. [94490] Chris Grayling: For most employers, the wage incentive will be paid after a young person has been in their Chris Grayling: There are at least two providers in employment for 26 weeks. Smaller businesses will be each contract package area and, as all are required to entitled to claim a part-payment after eight weeks of provide full geographical coverage in their areas, there employment, with the balance paid after 26 weeks. would always be an alternative available to ensure continuity of service. In the unlikely event of multiple provider Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for failure in the same contract area, alternatives could be Work and Pensions whether the Work Programme brought in at short notice from the Framework for the outcome data to be published in autumn 2012 will Provision of Employment Related Support Services include the numbers of job outcomes attributable to through which the Work programme was procured. (a) the Youth Contract and (b) apprenticeship placements. [95099] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he expects to reach a Chris Grayling: The details of what we will publish settlement with the two remaining flexible new deal on job outcomes and sustainment payments are still to providers whose contracts were cancelled. [94876] be finalised. 657W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 658W

Housing Benefit Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions which local authorities have made Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and representations to his Department on the potential Pensions how much was spent in real terms on local impact of reductions to local housing allowances since housing allowance in each London local authority in September 2010. [93936] (a) April 2010, (b) April 2011 and (c) October 2011; and what estimate he has made of expenditure on local Steve Webb: My Department has had and continues housing allowance in real terms in 2013-14. [93729] to have regular liaison with the Local Authority Associations that represent all 380 local authorities as well as meetings Steve Webb: Monthly data on local housing allowance with many individual local authorities. These meetings expenditure are not available. cover a range of issues including the impact of local housing allowance reforms. Annual outturn figures for 2009-10 and 2010-11 by London local authority are provided in table 1, in 2011-12 prices. Sajid Javid: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Table 1: Real terms local housing allowance expenditure in London local and Pensions how many people in Bromsgrove were in authorities (2011-12 prices) receipt of housing benefit of more than £400 per week LHA expenditure (2011/12 prices) (£ million) in the latest period for which figures are available. 2009-10 2010-11 [94134]

Greater London total 1,399.1 1,908.9 Barking 27.5 40.3 Steve Webb: Our latest administrative records, for Barnet 69.1 95.2 October 2011, show that there were no households in Bexley 20.3 27.9 Bromsgrove in receipt of housing benefit of more than Brent 93.9 135.8 £400 per week. Bromley 22.2 29.5 Camden 34.6 42.5 Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work City of London 0.4 0.5 and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Croydon 64.7 89.4 effect on landlords of the system of payment of Ealing 61.7 94.3 housing benefit to tenants rather than to landlords. Enfield 84.4 128.2 [94871] Greenwich 23.4 32.1 Hackney 62.4 85.8 Hammersmith 26.0 31.4 Steve Webb: Local housing allowance (LHA), a new Haringey 61.8 85.8 way of working out housing benefit for people renting Harrow 47.4 60.4 from a private landlord, was introduced in April 2008. Havering 20.1 26.9 An aim of LHA was to improve financial inclusion and Hillingdon 36.5 48.4 help tenants develop the skills needed for work by, Hounslow 36.0 47.4 wherever possible, paying benefit to claimants. Islington 27.0 34.4 Safeguards exist within the housing benefit regulations Kensington & Chelsea 36.0 48.6 where a landlord must be paid directly if the tenant is in Kingston-Upon-Thames 16.6 23.3 eight weeks or more rent arrears. Private sector landlords Lambeth 38.8 52.4 can also be paid directly if the council considers the Lewisham 77.8 89.1 tenant will either have difficulty managing his or her Merton 21.5 30.1 finances, or it is improbable the tenant will pay his or Newham 54.2 75.3 her rent. In April 2011, we introduced a temporary Redbridge 39.3 57.8 additional measure where the council can pay a private Richmond-Upon-Thames 15.3 18.5 sector landlord directly if it will help the tenant secure a Southwark 20.9 30.2 new tenancy or remain in their current home at a Sutton 19.2 25.5 reduced rent. Tower Hamlets 31.7 46.7 Following its introduction, the Government carried Waltham Forest 45.6 62.7 out a two-year review of the LHA arrangements to Wandsworth 78.0 86.6 assess its impact on tenants, landlords and other external Westminster 84.7 126.0 organisations, which was published in February 2011. Source: Annual Housing Benefit subsidy returns from local authorities, converted into Although the review identified some concerns, there real terms expenditure. was no evidence of landlords moving out of the housing We do not produce estimates of future expenditure at benefit market on a wider scale because of tenants a regional level. National level forecasts from 2011-12 being paid direct. The private rented sector housing to 2013-14 are given in table 2 as follows. benefit case load actually grew over the review period. Table 2: National local housing allowance expenditure forecast (2011-12 prices.) The Department has commissioned an independent Total LHA expenditure (2011-12 consortium of leading research organisations to evaluate prices) (£ millions) the effects of recent LHA changes. The evaluation team All local housing allowance is led by Ian Cole of Sheffield Hallam university and

2011-12 7,605 includes Peter Kemp (Oxford university) and members 2012-13 7,783 from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and Ipsos MORI. 2013-14 7,907 Early findings from the initial survey will be available in late spring 2012. 659W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 660W

Housing Benefit: Armed Forces Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 7 February 2012, Official Report, columns 235-36W, on and Pensions what assessment he has made of the independent living fund (ILF), with which disability effect of proposed changes to housing benefit rules on organisations, local government representatives and single members of the armed forces who are returning ILF representatives his Department consulted to their family home (a) on leave and (b) at the end of informally prior to the decision to announce the their service. [95135] closure of the independent living fund to new users. [95602] Steve Webb: No assessment has been made as relevant data is not available. Individuals who return to live in Maria Miller: The closure of this discretionary fund their family home on a permanent basis will be treated was to stay within its agreed budget. I met a number of as a non-dependant in the claimant’s housing benefit organisations to discuss the ILF with the Chair of assessment and treated as part of the household when Equality 2025, the Disability Charities Consortium, the establishing whether a household is under-occupying. Disabled People’s Organisations Group, the National Centre for Independent Living, the Local Government Association, London Councils and the trustees and Housing Benefit: Scotland management of the independent living fund. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Industrial Health and Safety: Methanol and Pensions how many people in receipt of housing benefit in (a) Glenrothes constituency, (b) Scotland Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (c) the UK will have their benefit reduced as a and Pensions whether the Health and Safety Executive result of his proposed changes. [95447] is taking steps to discourage the non-commercial and small-scale production of biodiesel which involves Steve Webb: The estimated number of housing benefit volatile chemicals such as methanol. [93775] recipients affected by the introduction in 2013-14 of the proposed reduction in housing benefit for working-age Chris Grayling: There is a warning on the Health & claimants under-occupying social housing is: Safety Executive’s website advising against the non- (a) not available for parliamentary constituencies; commercial manufacture of biodiesel using domestic or (b) 70,000 in Scotland; other unsuitable facilities, and by people who are not (c) not available for the UK, but 670,000 in Great Britain. trained or experienced in handling dangerous substances The estimated impact of proposed changes to housing such as highly flammable methanol. This is because of benefit for working-age tenants living in the social the serious risk of fire and explosion. rented sector is based upon information collected in the Members: Correspondence Department’s Family Resources Survey. Because the survey collects information from a sample of households, we cannot produce reliable estimates for the number of Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for claimants affected by parliamentary constituency. Work and Pensions when he plans to reply to the letter of 8 December 2011 from the right hon. Member for Source: Manchester, Gorton with regard to Esther Chizambe. Department for Work and Pensions Welfare Reform Bill 2011 [94048] impact assessment, entitled “Under-occupation of social housing”. The impact assessment can be found at: Chris Grayling: Following a thorough search of the http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under- Department’s correspondence system, we are unable to occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf locate this letter. Independent Living Fund New Deal Schemes

Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Work and Pensions when he expects to conclude 6 February 2012, Official Report, columns 111-12W, on negotiations on the compensation payable for early independent living fund, if he will publish details of the termination of Flexible New Deal contracts. [94085] assessment referred to in the answer that the independent living fund was no longer financially or Chris Grayling: Of the 14 providers which held Flexible equitably sustainable. [95459] New Deal Phase 1 contracts, DWP has negotiated settlements agreed with 12 to date. DWP aims to complete Maria Miller: The trustees of the independent living remaining negotiations by April 2012. fund took the decision to close the fund to all new applicants as of June 2010. This decision was taken to Olympic Games 2012 ensure this discretionary fund remained within its £348 million budget. The forthcoming consultation Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work document on how existing independent living fund and Pensions how many invitations to attend events at users should be supported in the future will set out the the London 2012 Olympics (a) he, (b) other Ministers detail of the assessment that led to the decision announced in his Department and (c) senior officials in his in December 2010 that the fund would remain permanently Department have accepted; and if he will make a closed to new users. statement. [93625] 661W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 662W

Chris Grayling: Details of hospitality received by The impact assessment assumes that the situation of Ministers and Special Advisers and the most senior these households will go unchanged, and they will not officials are published on a quarterly basis and will be take any steps to either work enough hours to qualify available for July-September 2012 in due course. for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or find alternative accommodation. In all cases the Department Pension Protection Fund: Wedgwood Museum is working to support households through this transition, using existing provision through Jobcentre Plus and the Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work programme to move as many into work as possible. and Pensions if he will consider bringing forward legislative proposals to remove the Wedgwood Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Museum from the ambit of the Pensions Protection Work and Pensions when he expects to receive the Fund to ensure the Wedgwood Collection is protected. report of the independent review on passported [91519] benefits by the Social Security Advisory Committee. [95138] Steve Webb: The DWP has considered these issues carefully and does not believe it would be appropriate Maria Miller: The Department for Work and Pensions to amend existing pension’s legislation to remove the have received the Social Security Advisory Committee’s Wedgwood Museum from the ambit of the Pension independent review on passported benefits and we will Protection Fund. To do so could have significant be publishing their report alongside our response by the repercussions for the pensions protection regime and end of April 2012. could have an impact on wider insolvency law. Neither I nor the Pensions Protection Fund would Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for want to see this unique collection needlessly sold off Work and Pensions how many people in (a) piecemeal, therefore, as one of the company’s creditors, Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (b) East the PPF will continue to talk to the administrators and Yorkshire and (c) Yorkshire and Humber receive over others to find the best way forward for all involved. £26,000 per annum in benefits. [95582] Social Security Benefits Chris Grayling: The information is not available by parliamentary constituency. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many single people without children In April 2013 the Government propose to cap a in each region of the UK will be affected by the household’s weekly benefit entitlement at £500 for couples household benefit cap; on what basis they are housed; and lone parents, and at £350 for single people without what out-of-work benefits they receive; and what the children. average change in income per week will be. [92983] The recent impact assessment (published on 23 January 2012) suggests that 67,000 households may be affected Chris Grayling: Estimates for Great Britain are shown by the household benefit cap. Fewer than 100 households as follows. may be affected in East Yorkshire. We estimate that in The figures are rounded to the nearest 100, and relate Yorkshire and Humber around 2,400 households may to the financial year 2013-14 when the cap is implemented, be affected by the cap. and are on the same basis as the impact assessment Some households are excluded from the cap and so which was published on 23 January 2012. Following the may be able to receive benefits exceeding £26,000, these concessions won in the House of Commons on 1 February, include: these figures are of course subject to change ahead of Households entitled to working tax credit; the Welfare Reform Bill gaining Royal Assent. Households with a claimant, partner or child receiving disability living allowance (or its successor, the personal independence Estimated number of payment), or attendance allowance, or constant attendance allowance; single person Median reduction in and Region households affected weekly benefits (£) War widows and war widowers. East Midlands 200 22 East of England 200 18 These estimates have not been adjusted for the additional easements announced in the House of Commons on London 6,400 30 1 February, which include: the exemption of households North East — — who were in receipt of the support component of North West 200 32 employment and support allowance; and a nine-month Scotland 1,000 51 grace period for claimants who were in work for 52 weeks South East 200 28 or more before the start of their claim. South West 100 22 Wales 200 48 Also, the impact assessment assumed that the situation West Midlands 100 33 of these households will go unchanged, and they will Yorkshire and the ——not take any steps to either work enough hours to Humber qualify for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or find alternative accommodation. In all cases the We are unable to divide these results by the basis they Department is working to support households through are housed and what out of benefits they receive, as in this transition, using existing provision through Jobcentre most areas this would leave fewer than 100 households Plus and the Work Programme to move as many into in each category. work as possible. 663W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 664W

Social Security Benefits: Liverpool Chris Grayling: The impact of Territorial Army pay on benefits for unemployed people is the subject of Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for ongoing discussions between the Department for Work Work and Pensions how many people resident in and Pensions and the Ministry of Defence. Liverpool, Walton constituency were in receipt of Unemployment: Young People benefits totalling £26,000 or more per annum in the latest period for which figures are available. [94877] Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he proposes that funding for the Chris Grayling: The information is not available by Youth Contract will be distributed according to (a) parliamentary constituency. population and (b) unemployment in each region of In April 2013 the Government propose to cap a the UK. [94282] household’s weekly benefit entitlement at £500 for couples and lone parents, and at £350 for single people without Chris Grayling: The Youth Contract will, from April children. 2012, provide nearly half a million new opportunities The recent impact assessment (published on 23 January for young people over the next three years. 2012) suggests that 67,000 households may be affected The distribution of this package of measures will by the household benefit cap. For Liverpool it is estimated depend on decisions on the detail of provision which that 400 households may be impacted by the cap. are not yet finalised. Further details will be available in Some households are excluded from the cap and so due course. may be able to receive benefits exceeding £26,000, these include: Universal Credit Households entitled to working tax credit; Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Households with a claimant, partner or child receiving disability Work and Pensions when he plans to bring forward living allowance (or its successor, the personal independence payment), or attendance allowance, or constant attendance allowance; final implementation plans for the introduction of and universal credit from October 2013. [95093] War widows and war widowers. Chris Grayling: There is presently no intention to These estimates have not been adjusted for the additional publish universal credit programme plans. easements announced in the House of Commons on 1 February, which include: the exemption of households Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for who were in receipt of the support component of Work and Pensions what definition he expects to use of employment and support allowance; and a nine-month the term in work for the purposes of (a) his proposed grace period for claimants who were in work for 52 weeks benefit cap and (b) in work conditionality under the or more before the start of their claim. universal credit scheme. [95098] Also, the impact assessment assumed that the situation of these households will go unchanged, and they will Chris Grayling: We are continuing to develop the not take any steps to either work enough hours to approach to conditionality under universal credit. Universal qualify for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in credit is an in and out of work benefit and conditionality situ, or find alternative accommodation. In all cases the requirements will relate to a claimant’s earnings and Department is working to support households through their individual circumstances. this transition, using existing provision through Jobcentre Households that are entitled to working tax credit Plus and the Work Programme to move as many into will be exempt from the benefit cap. There will be a work as possible. comparable exemption for claimants of universal credit who are in receipt of earnings and we are still considering Social Services the final design for this exemption. Welfare Reform Bill Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what representations he has received on the role of the welfare system in reform of Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will meet a deputation from social care; and if he will make a statement. [93984] organisations to discuss the Welfare Reform Bill. Maria Miller: DWP Ministers have met with their [95011] counterparts in the Department of Health to discuss Chris Grayling: The Secretary of State for Work and the important role that the social security system plays, Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and will continue to play in the care and support system and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), Ministers for disabled adults and older people, a system which and departmental officials have met with a wide range includes social care services provided by local authorities. of representative organisations both before and during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill and continue to Unemployment Benefits: Territorial Army do so.

Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of the Secretary of State for Defence on the impact of people in Hyndburn borough council area who will be Territorial Army pay on benefits for unemployed affected by each of the benefit caps proposed in the people. [93467] Welfare Reform Bill. [95137] 665W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 666W

Chris Grayling: Fewer than 100 households in Hyndburn Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for borough council area will be affected. Work and Pensions (1) how many people have The answer relates to the financial year 2013-14 when undergone the work capability assessment since April the cap is implemented, and is on the same basis as the 2011, by week; [95577] impact assessment which was published on 23 January (2) how many people have undergone the work 2012. Following the concessions won in the House of capability assessment since April 2011. [95555] Commons on 1 February, these figures are of course subject to change ahead of the Welfare Reform Bill Chris Grayling: The Department regularly publishes gaining Royal Assent. official statistics on employment and support allowance The impact assessment assumes that the situation of (ESA) and the work capability assessment (WCA). The these households will go unchanged, and they will not latest report on monthly assessments was published in take any steps to either work enough hours to qualify January 2012 and can be found on the internet at the for working tax credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or following link: find alternative accommodation. In all cases, the http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ Department is working to support households through index.php?page=esa_wca this transition, using existing provision through Jobcentre Plus and the Work programme to move as many into Information on a weekly basis is not available. work as possible. Tables 2a and 2b accompanying the bulletin show that between April 2011 and August 2011, the latest Work Capability Assessment information available, 239,200 ESA claims went through the WCA process. Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Figures for the number of existing incapacity benefit and Pensions how many people in (a) Jarrow (IB) recipients undergoing reassessment for ESA via the constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East WCA are not yet available. The Department plans to and (d) the UK who have attended a work capability publish official statistics on outcomes of the WCA for assessment have been deemed (i) fit and (ii) unfit for claimants going through the IB reassessment process work in the last 12 months. [91447] and will be announcing publication on the statistics publication hub in due course. Chris Grayling: The following table shows completed employment and support allowance (ESA) work capability assessments (WCA) taking place between September Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 to August 2011 (this is the latest 12 month period Work and Pensions how many people waited longer for which these figures are available). The table also than 13 weeks to undergo the work capability (a) (b) (c) [95578] shows the number of fit for work decisions made following assessment in 2009, 2010 and 2011. these assessments. Information is unavailable for the Jarrow constituency and data for Great Britain are Chris Grayling: The number of employment and given in place of data for the United Kingdom as data support allowance (ESA) claims where the time between for Northern Ireland is not available. The numbers the claim start and the work capability assessment provided have been rounded to the nearest hundred (as (WCA) decision was longer than 13 weeks, was: a result, figures may not sum to the totals shown). (a) 147,600 for assessments completed from January to December Table one: Completed assessments and fit for work decisions—CA outcomes by 2009; date of assessment for September 2010 to August 2011 (b) 236,600 for assessments completed from January to December Entitled to employment and support 2010; and allowance: (c) 146,800 for assessments completed from January to August Work related 2011 (the latest data available). Geographical activity Support Either Fit for Any There are a number of reasons why the time between area group group group work outcome the claim start date and the WCA decision may take Great 118,800 58,500 177,300 237,300 414,600 longer than 13 weeks. These include the claimant delaying Britain return of the ESA50 form, not being able to attend a North East 5,400 3,500 8,900 18,000 26,900 face to face WCA with good cause, and awaiting a face South 400 200 600 1,200 1,800 to face WCA or DWP decision. Tyneside LA Employment and support allowance is normally put 1. The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held by the into payment at an “assessment rate” pending the WCA Department for Work and Pensions and functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare. decision. Where the assessment phase continues longer 2. These figures do not include incapacity benefit reassessment claims. than 13 weeks because a WCA has not taken place 3. A small number of clerical assessments, where the result cannot be determined payment continues. For those assessed to be on ESA in from DWP benefits data, are excluded from these figures. the Work Related Activity Group or Support Group The Department regularly publishes data on ESA following the decision, the components are backdated and the WCA, which can be found on the departmental to week 14 of the claim. website here: Notes: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ index.php?page=esa_wca 1. For approximately 17% of all new claims, the duration cannot be determined due to data not being available, so have This information is taken from administrative data been excluded from the analysis above. Theses are mainly claims held by the Department, assessment data provided by with the one or other of the dates is missing so the time from the Atos Healthcare and appeals data from Her Majesty’s claim start to the notification of the WCA decision cannot be Courts and Tribunals Service. calculated. 667W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 668W

2. The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held Work Capability Assessments: Audio Recordings by the Department for Work and Pensions. It related to ESA claims; incapacity benefit claims are not included. Figures have Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for been rounded to the nearest 100. Work and Pensions pursuant to the contribution by the 3. As the Official Statistics on ESA and the WCA do not focus on Minister of State in his Department of 1 February benefit durations, the underlying data used to provide the information 2012, Official Report, columns 291-2WH, how long has not been quality assured to the same level, and should be after the work capability assessment takes place people treated with caution. whose session is audio-recorded will receive a copy of that recording. [94562] Work Capability Assessment: Parkinson’s Disease Chris Grayling: On the same day as the session is audio-recorded, and on completion of the work capability Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment, the claimant will be handed a copy of their Work and Pensions how many people suffering from audio recording before they leave the medical assessment (a) Parkinson’s disease, (b) MS, (c) cancer and (d) centre. dementia have undergone multiple work capability assessments. [94753] Work Programme Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: The following table shows those claimants Work and Pensions what data Work programme who had more than one work capability assessment providers are required to collect in order to contribute (WCA) between October 2008 and August 2011, whose to the Department’s statistical releases. [94872] main health condition was recorded as Parkinson’s disease, Multiple Sclerosis, cancer or dementia when Chris Grayling: DWP is developing official statistics they first claimed ESA. on the information recorded by providers on the payment All ESA claimants must go through a WCA. For administrative system. The information collected is subject most claimants this will involve a face-to-face assessment to regular validation checks to ensure providers are but for others, including people undergoing certain paid correctly for job outcomes and sustainment payments types of chemotherapy or who have a serious condition claimed, which in turn will help guarantee the accuracy and are judges likely to meet the support group criteria, of information which is released. Prior to the release of this is a paper-based assessment. any figures, DWP will perform extra validation checks It is not possible to provide statistics to show whether to ensure that official statistics meet the appropriate someone underwent a face-to-face assessment or a paper- standards for publication. based assessment; only whether they went through the Providers have not been given specific instructions WCA. regarding the collation of data for the purpose of publishing official statistics, only that they should adhere to the As part of each WCA, it will be determined, based code of practice which can be viewed via the following upon the claimant’s condition and medical evidence, link: when they need to have another assessment. Individuals with more serious conditions where a http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/assessment/code-of- practice/code-of-practice-for-official-statistics.pdf return to work is unlikely, will only be reassessed after two years, and where possible, this assessment will be In addition, the DWP ensures that the national paper-based. statistician’s guidance on the use of administrative or management information is followed. This can be viewed This is because, even for claimants who are unlikely via the following link: to see an improvement in their health and who are http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/national-statistician/ns- unlikely to sufficiently adapt to their condition, it is reports--reviews-and-guidance/national-statistician-s- important that we do not write them off and are able to guidance/use-of-administrative-or-management- offer them further support where necessary. information.pdf We are mindful to avoid face-to-face assessments Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for where possible. Work and Pensions how many people sanctions have been applied to under the Work programme since its Number of claimants who have gone through multiple work inception; and what proportion this represents of all Health condition capability assessments recommended sanctions from sub-contractors. [94879]

Parkinson’s disease 440 Chris Grayling: The number of individuals who failed Multiple Sclerosis 2,020 to participate in the Work programme resulting in the Cancer 16,750 application of JSA sanction by the end of October 2011 Dementia 90 was 7,320. A claimant would be deemed to have failed Notes: to participate in the Work programme if they have not 1. The Department regularly publishes data on ESA and WCA, the complied with any activity they have been mandated to latest publication can be found on the departmental website at: undertake by their provider, without good reason. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/index.php?page=esa_wca 2. Data on ESA assessments and outcomes is taken from administrative It is not possible to provide any breakdown of JSA data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and assessment sanctions by referral source and to do so would incur data provided by Atos Healthcare. disproportionate cost. 3. Data are for individuals who have gone through a work capability Currently employment support allowance sanctions assessment. It is not possible to ascertain how many individuals went through only a paper-based assessment and how many had a face-to-face data comes from a different source to JSA sanctions assessment. data and we are unable to break this data down by the 4. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. reason of failing to participate in the Work programme. 669W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 670W

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The information requested on the Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of cost of treating people injured in cycling accidents is 2 February 2012, Official Report, column 800W, on not collected centrally. what date he expects to publish the number of The following table shows a count of finished admission voluntary sector providers in the Work programme episodes (FAEs), where there was a cause code relating supply chain identified through the stocktake of to an accident involving a pedal cycle, for the financial 31 January 2012. [95409] years 2006-07 to 2010-11. The data includes episodes Chris Grayling: We intend to publish the findings of where the cyclist was injured in the accident and also the Work programme stocktake of 30 January 2012 by episodes where someone else was injured by the cyclist. 29 February 2012. Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for FAEs Work and Pensions with reference to the statement in the Work Programme Prospectus and Invitation to 2010-11 16,423 Tender that within existing Welfare to Work supply 2009-10 15,962 chains, some 30% of subcontracts are with voluntary 2008-09 14,013 sector organisations, which Welfare to Work 2007-08 14,033 programmes are referred to. [95423] 2006-07 13,679 Notes: Chris Grayling: The Welfare to Work programmes 1. Finished admission episodes referred to are: A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are New Deal for Young People (NDYP) counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. New Deal 25+ Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person Employment Zones and Private Sector Led New Deal may have more than one admission within the year. 2. Cause code Flexible New Deal (FND) A supplementary code that indicates the nature of any external cause Young Person’s Guarantee (YPG) and the 6 Month Offer of injury, poisoning or other adverse effects. Only the first external (6MO) cause code which is coded within the episode is counted in HES. New Deal for Disabled People (NDDP) contracts and Condition 3. Assessing growth through time Management Programme (CMP) HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements Provider Led Pathways to Work in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements Progress to Work and Progress to Work Linkup. in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in Work Programme: Employment and Support Allowance activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and so no longer include in admitted Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for patient HES data. Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information the effect on voluntary sector providers’ viability of Centre 106,000 fewer employment and support allowance claimants moving onto the Work programme in Alexandra Hospital: Redditch 2010-11 than was estimated at the beginning of the programme. [94873] Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: The Department has implemented Health what assessment he has made of whether some process changes to the Work programme to maximise organisational changes arising from implementation of the number of ESA claimants joining provision and the provisions of the Health and Social Care Bill will continues to monitor the situation. In addition, an result in accident and emergency and maternity independent evaluation of the Work programme will services being downgraded at the Alexandra Hospital explore the experiences of organisations within the in Redditch. [94715] supply chain, including those from the voluntary sector. Any concerns about ESA referral volumes should be Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no such highlighted by the evaluation. Interim findings will be assessment. The provision of national health services, available mid 2013 with a final report published in including both maternity and accident and emergency 2014-15. services, is a matter for the NHS locally.

Ambulance Services: Emergency Calls HEALTH Accidents: Cycling Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many medical 999 calls were made in each region Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; and what proportion of (1) what estimate his Department has made of the cost these calls resulted in ambulance dispatch in each to the NHS of treating people involved in cycling region in each year. [94507] accidents who were not wearing a cycle helmet in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; [94555] Mr Simon Burns: Information on the number of (2) how many people were admitted to hospital as a emergency calls and the number of calls resulting in a result of cycling accidents in each of the last five years. response arriving at a scene are published annually by [94584] the Health and Social Care Information Centre in the 671W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 672W statistical bulletin Ambulance Services England. These number of calls with a response arriving, not on the data are broken down by each ambulance trust within number of calls resulting in ambulance dispatch. The England. latest available annual data are for the year 2010-11 The following table shows the number of calls responded (1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011); however, data for to as a proportion of all calls. Data are collected on the 2009-10 is provided to give a two year comparison.

Emergency calls and calls resulting in response arriving at the scene of the incident—by ambulance service, 2009-10 and 2010-11 Thousand 2009-10 2010-11 Proportion of Proportion of Calls resulting calls with Calls resulting calls with in response responses arriving in response responses arriving Emergency arriving at of all emergency Emergency arriving at of all emergency Ambulance service calls scene calls (Percentage) calls scene calls (Percentage)

England 7,867.9 6,415.2 81.5 8,077.5 6,606.5 81.8 North East 431.8 353.7 81.9 458.5 361.5 78.8 North West 1,064.1 893.1 83.9 1,074.4 901.3 83.9 Yorkshire 710.9 598.9 84.2 725.3 615.9 84.9 East Midlands 692.9 573.6 82.8 723.5 595.4 82.3 West Midlands 844.1 708.8 84.0 863.8 730.4 84.6 East of England 778.1 668.5 85.9 821.2 693.4 84.4 London 1,480.3 1,012.9 68.4 1,494.2 1,058.1 70.8 South East Coast 619.2 561.3 90.7 653.9 581.0 88.9 South Central 494.7 383.2 77.5 494.9 390.1 78. Great Western 295.9 256.2 86.6 303.3 262.8 86.6 South Western 435.5 387.4 88.9 442.9 397.9 89.8 Isle of Wight 20.4 17.5 86.0 21.4 18.6 87.1 Source: The Health and Social Care Information Centre, Form KA34.

Antenatal Care Mr Simon Burns: Fenestrated endovascular aneurysm repair (fEVAR) is currently commissioned as part of Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health vascular services by the 10 Specialised Commissioning how many and what proportion of women did not Groups. We do not therefore hold centrally the information receive the number of antenatal appointments requested. recommended by the National Institute for Health and The Department has not carried out a separate Clinical Excellence in each maternity unit in (a) 2010 assessment of the effectiveness of fEVAR. and (b) 2011. [94382] Avian Influenza Anne Milton: Information on the number of antenatal appointments attended by pregnant women in 2010 and Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 is not currently available at the maternity unit Health how many (a) Ministers and (b) officials from level. his Department he expects to attend the forthcoming The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence conference on the H5N1 flu virus in Geneva. [94882] recommends a schedule of 10 antenatal appointments for nulliparous (first time mothers) women with an Anne Milton: The forthcoming conference in Geneva uncomplicated pregnancy, and seven antenatal is a technical consultation on the laboratory-created appointments for parous (has previously given birth) H5N1 research, open to technical experts directly involved women with an uncomplicated pregnancy. with the studies. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for either a Minister or officials from the Department to The Care Quality Commission surveyed, women’s attend. experiences of maternity services in England, 2010, 32% of respondents had seven to nine antenatal check-ups, Benzodiazepines and 16% of respondents had 10 to 14 antenatal check-ups. The results do not allow for a comparison between Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for nulliparous and parous women. The total number of Health how much funding his Department provided to respondents were 23,226. the National Treatment Agency for treatment of drug addicts prescribed benzodiazepines between 1 April Aortic Aneurysm 2011 and 31 December 2011. [94429]

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The National Treatment Agency for Health (1) which primary care trusts include Substance Misuse (NTA) does not provide or commission fenestrated endovascular aneurysm repair in their drug treatment services. The Grant-in Aid from the commissioning policy; [95012] Department to the NTA is £10.3 million for the 2011-12 (2) whether his Department has assessed the financial year. effectiveness of fenestrated endovascular aneurysm Funding allocated by the Department to local repair. [95013] partnerships for drug treatment is not ear-marked or 673W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 674W ring-fenced for specific drugs. It is for local areas to of these will have had reconstructive breast surgery determine the appropriate services to commission based after treatment for breast cancer but an exact breakdown on their assessment of local need. is not available. Comparable information for private The Department provided a total of £406.7 million hospitals is not yet available. to local areas as a contribution to local drug treatment NHS hospitals are making good progress in contacting in the 2011-12 financial year. all women who received PIP implants through the NHS and are expected to complete this within the next few Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for days. Any woman who has had reconstructive breast Health pursuant to the answer of 1 February 2012, surgery and has not yet been contacted, but is unsure Official Report, column 675W, on benzodiazepines, on whether her implant was a PIP implant or not, should what evidence he based his conclusion GPs have the seek advice from her general practitioner or from the (a) expertise and (b) resources to withdraw patients hospital clinic involved. iatrogenically addicted to tranquillisers. [95184] Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: Guidance on the prescribing of Health whether his policy on the replacement of PIP benzodiazepines is provided in the Summary of Product implants will be time limited; and if he will make a Characteristics for individual products and in the British statement. [95479] National Formulary, which is sent to all doctors within the national health service. This includes information Mr Simon Burns: There can be no time limit to the about the risk of dependence and withdrawal reactions duty of care which a health care organisation owes to its as well as details of any known interactions. patients. If a woman has received PIP implants as part General practitioner knowledge and expertise is further of national health service treatment, the NHS will supported by the work of the Royal College of General remove and replace the implants at any time if that is Practitioners. what the woman and her doctor decide. We expect private providers to do the same. Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 1 February 2012, Cancer: Health Education Official Report, column 675W, on benzodiazepines, if he will provide a list of specialist services available to Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for support people who wish to cease using the product Health how much money was spent by his Department referred to in his answer. [95185] on research and raising awareness of (a) breast cancer and (b) prostate cancer in each year since 2005. Anne Milton: Local areas are responsible for [95172] commissioning appropriate services to meet local need. Data returns on the characteristics of the treatment Paul Burstow: Information on the Department’s spend population show that most areas in the country have on breast and prostate cancer awareness activity in each services in place to support people who develop dependence year since 2005 has been presented in the following on over-the-counter and prescribed drugs. However, the table: Department does not hold a central record of which providers are supplying these services to local £ commissioners. Breast Prostate

Last September, I convened a roundtable discussion 2005-06 27,236 89,400 on the issue of addiction to medicines, which identified 2006-07 54,504 206,952 a number of concrete actions to take forward. These 2007-08 87,578 126,000 include actions to improve the local commissioning to 2008-09 21,702 135,000 service to respond to addiction to medicines and improve 2009-10 30,715 437,000 access to treatment and support. These actions will be reviewed when the roundtable group reconvenes in 2010-11 3,778,791 276,500 March 2012. 2011-12 921,431 102,000 Notes: 1. Figures have been rounded to the nearest pound. Breasts: Plastic Surgery 2. 2005 figures for breast cancer do not include storage and distribution costs of breast cancer awareness literature as these were unavailable forthisyear. Steve Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 3. In 2009-10 £86,000 (of the £437,000) in funding for prostate cancer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Warley awareness also funded activity for bowel and lung cancer. of 18 January 2012, Official Report, column 875W, on 4. In 2010-11 £7,500 (of the £276,500) in funding for prostate cancer plastic surgery: breasts, what progress has been made awareness also funded activity for bowel and lung cancer. on obtaining information about the number of women 5. In 2010-11 £3,745,000 (of the £3,778,791) in funding for breast cancer awareness activity also funded activity for either bowel cancer, with PIP breast implants; and if he will inform any lung cancer or both. women who have had reconstructive breast surgery 6. The 2011-12 spend for prostate cancer is forecasted end of year after treatment for breast cancer whether they have expenditure. received PIP implants. [94464] Figures for the Department’s total expenditure on research on breast and prostate cancers in each year Mr Simon Burns: Our latest estimate is that some 745 since 2005 are not available. Prior to the establishment women received PIP implants through treatment in of the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) national health service hospitals, excluding those women in April 2006, the main part of the Department’s total whose implants have already been removed. The majority health research expenditure was devolved to and managed 675W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 676W by national health service organisations. From April 2006 the National Cancer Action Team (NCAT) is working to March 2009, transitional research funding was allocated in partnership with the Federation of Irish Societies to to these organisations at reducing levels. The organisations produce a health supplement to increase both the early have accounted for their use of the allocations they have signs of cancer and increase screening uptake. The received from the Department in an annual research supplement, which has been developed as part of the and development report. The reports identify total, ’Cancer Does Not Discriminate’ Campaign, will be aggregated expenditure on national priority areas, including launched around the St Patrick’s Day celebrations in cancer. They do not provide details of research into March 2012 and will be distributed through two Irish particular cancer sites. newspapers and by 120 Irish groups and organisations The NIHR Clinical Research Network (CRN) is across England. Negotiations are also taking place with currently hosting 103 studies in breast cancer, and 37 in the Irish Department of Health, Social Services and prostate cancer, that are in set-up or recruiting patients. Public Safety to distribute the supplement there. Expenditure by the CRN on research into particular NCAT also funded the Ethnic Minority Cancer cancer sites cannot be disaggregated from total CRN Awareness week 2011 (11 July to 17 July) which provided expenditure. a number of small grants to community organisations across the country to hold awareness events. Over 27 events Cancer: Radiotherapy were held across England, a number of which were targeted at the Irish community. NCAT also supports Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the National BME Cancer Alliance working together to whether the National Cancer Action Team has improve outcomes for those affected by cancer from allocated a costing code for (a) Stereotactic Body black and minority ethnic communities. The Irish Radiation Therapy and (b) Stereotactic Ablative Federation of societies is an active member of the 18 Radiotherapy. [94257] organisations that form the alliance.

Paul Burstow: The National Cancer Action Team Care Homes: Dartford (NCAT) has not allocated a costing code for stereotactic body radiation therapy (now known as stereotactic ablative radiotherapy, SABR) as it is not NCATs Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for responsibility to allocate costing codes for cancer treatments. Health how many inspections were carried out by the NHS Connecting for Health is reviewing the existing Care Quality Commission on care homes which International Statistical Classification of Diseases and involved on-site visits in Dartford constituency during OPCS Classification of Interventions and Procedures 2010-11. [95073] codes used for radiotherapy and the NHS Information Centre is reviewing the Healthcare Resource Group Mr Simon Burns: The Care Quality Commission (HRG) classification system design (also known as the (CQC) is the independent regulator of health and adult ‘currency’) for radiotherapy services. Changes made to social care in England. coding and the HRG classification system may mean The CQC took over the regulation of health and the inclusion of new codings for different forms of adult social care under the Care Standards Act 2000 on radiotherapy. These will ultimately feed through into 1 April 2009. Since 1 October 2010, independent health the costs that are collected and the tariffs that are set for care providers and adult social care providers have been radiotherapy services. regulated under the new framework under the Health and Social Care Act 2008. Cancer: Republic of Ireland The CQC has provided the following information: Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health In the year April 2010 to March 2011 the CQC carried out seven inspections of care homes which included a site visit in the what assessment he has made of the incidence of Dartford constituency.. This figure includes inspections under the different cancers (a) among individuals of Irish Care Standards Act 2000 (to 30 September 2010) and the Health ethnicity living in the UK and (b) nationally; what the and Social Care Act 2008 (from 1 October 2010). level of screening uptake is in each case; and what steps he is taking to (i) increase awareness, (ii) promote Care Quality Commission screening and (iii) address lifestyle factors that may contribute to a greater risk of cancer among individuals of Irish ethnicity. [94840] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many times the Care Quality Commission Paul Burstow: No assessment has been made of the has taken enforcement action in the last 12 months. incidence of different cancers or the rates of screening [94379] uptake among individuals of Irish ethnicity living in the United Kingdom or nationally. Screening data is not Mr Simon Burns: The Care Quality Commission broken down by ethnicity, and incidence data, where (CQC) is the independent regulator of health and adult broken down by ethnicity, has only been presented by social care in England and is responsible for developing the major ethnic groupings of ’White’, ’Asian’, ’Black’, and consulting on its methodology for assessing whether ’Chinese’, ’mixed’ and ’other’. The ethnic grouping providers are meeting the registration requirements under ’White’ includes ’White British’, ’White Irish’ and ’Other the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (the 2008 Act). White’. All providers of regulated activities must be registered In terms of activity to promote cancer awareness, with the CQC and continue to meet a set of registration screening uptake and lifestyle factors that can increase requirements setting out essential levels of safety and the risk of cancer among individuals of Irish ethnicity, quality. 677W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 678W

Failure to comply with the requirements is an offence, Coverage (less than five and under the 2008 Act, the CQC has a wide range of Number of women years since last adequate enforcement powers that it can use if the provider is not screened (thousands) test) (percentage) compliant. 2007-08 12.1 80.0 The following information has been provided by the 2008-09 13.1 80.5 CQC: 2009-10 11.9 80.3 Completed enforcement processes under the Health and Social Care Act 2010-11 11.8 79.7 Variation of Notes: provider Cancellation of 1. The source of these data is the KC53 statistical return from the cervical Warning notice registration registration screening programme call and recall system. 2. The number of women screened excludes those women who had one or more 2011 tests during the year, all of which were classified as ’inadequate’. 3. Coverage is calculated at 31 March each year. January 7 — 1 February 7 4 1 Information concerning the number of invitations March 8 — — sent out by NHS Norfolk and Waveney for cervical April 3 5 1 cancer screenings in each year since 2007 cannot be May 25 8 2 provided in the format requested. Information for NHS June 24 — 3 Norfolk and Waveney as a PCT cluster is not recorded. July 18 — 2 However, figures are available for Great Yarmouth and August 41 6 2 Waveney PCT and Norfolk PCT, which make up NHS September 85 8 5 Norfolk and Waveney. October 63 3 2 The following tables show the numbers of women November 80 9 5 invited for cervical screening from 2007-08 through to December 57 — 1 2010-11. The table shows the numbers of women invited in the 25-64 age group, which is the current target age 2012 group for cervical screening, and also for women of all January 73 1 3 ages. Women over the age of 65 are invited if their February 19 2 — previous three tests were not clear or if they have never Total 510 46 28 been screened. Notes: Total women invited (25-64 years) 1. The figures contain duplication where the enforcement process has been applied to more than one regulated activity. Great Yarmouth and 2. Figures shown are for fully completed processes only and so may not match Norfolk PCT Waveney PCT previously published figures showing actions initiated. Figures from more recent months (late 2011) may be subject to change. The aggregate figures may 2007-08 56,910 15,322 rise if the information is captured by the system in a subsequent month. 2008-09 43,890 13,553 3. The months shown are based on the end dates of processes. 4. In addition, there were four instances of registration being refused and one 2009-10 49,155 14,695 notice of proposal to suspend registration recorded on the regional enforcement 2010-11 54,932 15,181 spreadsheets. 5. Cancellations of registration covers provider and manager cancellation processes. Total women invited (all ages) Great Yarmouth and Cervical Cancer: East of England Norfolk PCT Waveney PCT 2007-08 59,106 15,848 Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 45,271 14,016 Health how many (1) women aged 25 to 64 years in the 2009-10 50,993 15,227 Great Yarmouth area took up an invitation for cervical 2010-11 56,505 15,631 cancer screening in each year since 2007; [94553] Note: The source of this data is the KC53 (part B) statistical return from the (2) invitations were sent out by NHS Norfolk and cervical screening programme call and recall system. Waveney for cervical cancer screenings in each year since 2007. [94554] Chlamydia Infection: Screening Paul Burstow: Information concerning the number of women aged 25 to 64 years in the Great Yarmouth area who took up an invitation for cervical screening in each Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health year since 2007 cannot be provided in the format requested. how many (a) men and (b) women were screened by each local Chlamydia screening programme in (i) 2011 Information on the number of women screened and and (ii) 2010. [94384] screening coverage for women in the routine screening age range of 25 to 64 years for Great Yarmouth and Waveney Primary Care Trust (PCT) area has been Anne Milton: Figures on the number of Chlamydia provided in the following table. Coverage is the percentage tests in young people aged 15 to 24, for 2010 and of women in a population who were eligible for screening January to September 2011, have, been placed in the at a particular point in time and who were screened Library. These include the number of tests reported to adequately within a specified period. For women aged the National Chlamydia Screening Programme (NCSP), 25 to 64 coverage is calculated as the number of women genitourinary medicine (GUM) clinics and laboratory in this age group who have had an adequate screening reports of Chlamydia tests outside of GUM not reported test within the last five years, as a percentage of the directly to the NCSP (non NCSP and GUM), by sex eligible population aged 25 to 64. and primary care trust of residence in England. 679W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 680W

Contraceptives Dental Health

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent representations his Department has what proportion of admissions to hospital via accident received on commissioners restricting access to and emergency departments were related to dental contraceptive services on the basis of (a) age, (b) place problems in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [94539] (c) of residence and type of contraceptive method; Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is shown [95371] in the following table. (2) what assessment he has made of the possible Finished admission episodes (FAEs)1 where the admission was via effects of primary care trust restrictions on the accident and emergency (A&E), for all admissions and those where prescribing or availability through general practice or the consultant main specialty2 was recorded as dentistry3 for 2009-10 other commissioned contraceptive services of (a) and 2010-11 methods of emergency contraception, (b) long-acting Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS reversible contraceptive methods and (c) other commissioned activity in the independent sector contraceptive methods on (i) public health outcomes Proportion of and (ii) abortion rates. [95376] admissions to hospital via A&E Total A&E which were under Anne Milton: Over the last six months, the Department admissions ’Dental’ has received a small number of representations from under ’Dental’ All A&E consultants clinicians and voluntary sector organisations on the consultants admissions4 (percentage) current commissioning of contraception by primary care trusts (PCTs) and access to certain types of 2009-10 20,317 3,968,881 0.51 contraception by certain age groups. 2010-11 21,285 4,104,995 0.52 1 Finished admission episodes Current legislation requires PCTs to provide open-access A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient contraception services for all people in their local areas, care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are and to provide reasonable access to all methods of counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. contraception. However, it is for PCTs themselves, with Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. their knowledge of local need, to determine how they 2 Consultant Main Specialty can best fulfil the legislative requirements. The specialty under which the consultant responsible for the care of Statistics on conceptions (published by the Office for the patient at that time is registered. Take care when analysing National Statistics) and abortions (published by the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data by specialty, or by groups of specialties (such as ″acute″). Trusts have different ways of managing Department of Health) do not suggest that any recent specialties and attributing codes so it is better to analyse by specific changes to contraception provision offered by PCTs has diagnoses, operations or other patient or service information. had an impact on the number or rate of conceptions or 3 Consultant Main Specialty Codes abortions. 140 Oral Surgery 141 Restorative Dentistry 142 Paediatric Dentistry (available from 1999-2000) Dance Movement Therapy 143 Orthodontics 145 Oral and Maxillo Facial Surgery (available from 2004-05) 147 Periodontics Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 146 Endodontics Health what assessment he has made of the merits of 148 Prosthodontics giving dance-movement psychotherapists similar (a) 4 Admission via A&E professional recognition and (b) statutory regulation Admissions where the method of admission is recorded as to that applying to arts psychotherapists. [94375] 21—Emergency Admission via A&E 28—Emergency Admission—Other (including A&E of a different provider) Anne Milton: The Government do not consider that a Data quality: case has been made for the regulation of dance-movement HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and therapists. primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The While compulsory statutory regulation is sometimes NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with necessary where significant risks to users of services these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid cannot be mitigated in other ways, it is not always the data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about most proportionate or effective means of assuring the improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. safe and effective care of service users. Assessing growth through time: HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the For the overwhelming majority of groups not currently figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements subject to statutory regulation, including those in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements recommended by the Health Professions Council for in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in statutory regulation in the past, the Government consider activity may be due to a number of procedures, which may now be that assured voluntary registration would be the preferred undertaken in out-patient settings and so no longer include in admitted option. patient HES data. Source: The statutory framework for a system of assured Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information voluntary registration, is being taken forward through Centre the Health and Social Care Bill, which would allow Dental Services employers, providers, commissioners and service users to assure themselves that practitioners they contract Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with meet high standards of training, conduct and how many people saw an NHS dentist at least once in competence. (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [94541] 681W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 682W

Mr Simon Burns: Information is not available in the (2) which contracts his Department has tendered or format requested. will tender in 2011-12 which require successful The number of patients seen by a national health organisations to have a capital bond of more than service dentist in the previous. 24 months, in England, is £5 million; which contracts have not required such a available in Table 3a of the “NHS Dental Statistics for bond; and if he will make a statement. [94934] England—2011/12, First quarterly report”. Information is available at quarterly intervals from 30 June 2009 to Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not keep 30 September 2011. central records of procurements where capital bonds have been or will be required. Inquiries have been made Note that the ’patients seen’ measure shows the number of the directorates across the Department that have of patients who received NHS dental care in the previous responsibility for managing contracts, and they report 24 months: an equivalent measure covering the 12 month that they do not routinely require capital bonds, have period is not available. no record of their use in 2011-12 and have no plans to This report, published on 24 November 2011, has use them in the remainder of this period. been placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS Information Centre website at: Doctors: Pay www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats1112q1 Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Dental Services: Cumbria Health (1) how many doctors working in clinical commissioning groups are being paid an hourly or Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health sessional rate and also having an additional payment what estimate he has made of the number of NHS made either to themselves or their practice for the dentists required to meet demand for NHS dental care provision of locum cover; [95207] (a) (b) in Cumbria and Westmorland and Lonsdale (2) how many doctors working in clinical constituency. [94896] commissioning groups have had their hourly or sessional rate approved by the Treasury; [95208] Mr Simon Burns: Decisions about the provision of local health services, including NHS dental care services, (3) whether a requirement exists for Treasury are a matter for the local national health service. approval for any doctor working in clinical commissioning groups and receiving a payment that Details on future plans for investment in NHS dental pro-rata would be higher than the salary of the Prime care services in the Cumbria area can be obtained from Minister; [95209] Cumbria Teaching primary care trust. (4) how many doctors working in clinical Departmental Manpower commissioning groups receive an hourly or sessional rate that if paid on a full-time rate would be higher John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health than the salary of the Prime Minister; [95210] how many staff were on his Department’s payroll in (5) how many doctors working in clinical (a) June 2010, (b) June 2011 and (c) January 2012. commissioning groups are being paid on (a) an hourly [94544] or (b) sessional rate. [95211]

Mr Simon Burns: The numbers of civil servants on Mr Simon Burns: Information on remuneration for the Department’s payroll for specific dates are presented doctors working for emerging clinical commissioning in the following table. groups (CCGs) is not held centrally. Once established, the governing body of a CCG will Full-time equivalent staff have the responsibility to determine remuneration, fees 30 June 2010 2,596 and allowances payable to employees of the CCG and 30 June 2011 2,393 to those that provide services to the CCG. 31 January 2012 2,311 Each clinical commissioning group will have a limit on administrative spending placed upon it by the NHS Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Commissioning Board and it is up to each clinical commissioning group to determine how much of that Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health envelope it spends on pay. whether the special advisers in his Department have declared any external employment in the last 12 Eating Disorders months. [95443] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: None of the special advisers has how many cases of (a) anorexia and (b) bulimia were declared any external employment while working for diagnosed in each region for patients of each (i) age the Department. group and (ii) sex in (A) 2010 and (B) 2011. [94504] Departmental Procurement Paul Burstow: We have not collected the exact data requested, however, comprehensive statistics on the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health prevalence of eating disorders for 2007 can be found in (1) what proportion of the total value of contracts the Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey and the following issued or to be issued by his Department in 2011-12 tables show breakdowns of the data collected in 2007 by have required successful organisations to put up a age, gender and Government office region for eating capital bond; and if he will make a statement; [94918] disorders. 683W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 684W

Screen positive for eating disorder in the past year, by region1 and sex, 2007 Percentage Government office region Strategic health authority Yorks and South SCOFF North North the East West East of South South East South score East West Humber Midlands Midlands England London West East Coast Central

Men Twoormore2 3 4.8 2.7 2.7 4.6 3.1 2.8 3.7 3.6 3.1 4.1 Two or more 0.6 0.9 0.4 — 1 0.4 0.6 1 0.4 0.8 — with significant impact

Women Twoormore2 6.8 9.6 9.1 10.6 10.4 7.5 10.3 9.2 8.4 9.3 7.4 Two or more 2.5 2.7 2.2 1.6 3.5 1.3 2.4 3.5 2.6 2.4 2.7 with significant impact 1 This table provides data for regional analysis both by Government office region (GOR) and strategic health authorities (SHAs). The first eight columns represent GORs and SHAs of the same name, while the South East GOR (column nine) is divided into South East Coast SHA and South Central SHA, shown in the final two columns. 2 The ‘two or more’ group includes those with a SCOFF score of two or more and reporting significant impact. Note: The SCOFF screening tool for eating disorders was administered to respondents as part of the self-completion section of the interview. Endorsement of two or more items represented a positive screen for eating disorder. This threshold indicates that clinical assessment for eating disorder is warranted. Source: Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in England, 2007 Survey. Screen positive for eating disorder in past year, by age and sex, 2007 Percentage Age group SCOFF score 16-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65-74 75+ All

Men Two or more1 6.1 5.1 3.3 3.7 2 1.5 0.5 3.5 Twoormorewith 1.70.70.30.80.10.3—0.6 significant impact

Women Two or more1 20.3 12.6 10 9.9 3.9 2.4 0.9 9.2 Twoormorewith 5.4 3.6 2.5 3.1 0.9 0.6 0.1 2.5 significant impact 1 The ‘two or more’ group includes those with a SCOFF score of two or more and reporting significant impact. Note: The SCOFF screening tool for eating disorders was administered to respondents as part of the self-completion section of the interview. Endorsement oftwoor more items represented a positive screen for eating disorder. This threshold indicates that clinical assessment for eating disorder is warranted. Source: Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in England, 2007 Survey.

Food Standards Agency: Expenditure In 2010-11, £63,930 was spent on one project on reported reactions to the sweetener aspartame. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for The FSA ensures value for money in science and Health how much the Food Standards Agency spent on evidence work and the scientific credibility of research direct commissioning of scientific research projects in prior to commissioning through: the last year for which figures are available; how much The development and publication of the Science and Evidence of this was spent on research into anecdotal reports of Strategy for 2010 2015, offering a clear vision of how to meet the food intolerance; and what steps the agency takes to challenges of delivering safer food for the nation, supported by the annual Forward Evidence Plan; ensure the (a) value for money and (b) scientific credibility of such projects before commissioning them. The co-funding of research, to the value of £5.2 million in 2010-11, and partnerships with other government departments [94696] and funding bodies such as the Research Councils in areas of joint interest; Anne Milton: The overall spend by the Food Standards A tendering process, including peer review of proposals by Agency (FSA) on science and evidence gathering work external experts to ensure that we commission the best quality in 2010-11, the last year for which figures are available, research, and within a framework on governance and use of was £24.3 million. Further details on how this figure science, on which the FSA is advised by the independent General was divided between the strategic themes within the Advisory Committee on Science; and science and evidence portfolio are provided in the Annual Close monitoring of projects by programme managers and Report of the Chief Scientist 2010-11 which can be project officers. found at: Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/csr1011.pdf Health with whom the Food Standards Agency has 685W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 686W contracted to undertake research into anecdotal Anne Milton: The sexual health policy document will reports of intolerance to dietary intake of low calorie set sexual health improvement in the context of health sweeteners; how much it has spent on that project to modernisation and the proposed new commissioning date; what the total expenditure is likely to be by arrangements. It will promote the evidence base for completion; what progress has been made on the improving sexual health, including behaviour change project to date; and if the agency will ensure that the and links to wider public health issues. It will not data from the study is made available to the European contain any additional sexual health indicators, but will Food Safety Agency in time to inform its review of the instead give service commissioners the evidence and science in this area. [94697] tools they need to set locally-based indicators, should they wish to do so, to improve the sexual health of their Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has local populations. commissioned Hull university to carry out the research on alleged adverse reactions to aspartame. To date Health £352,357 has been spent on this project. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health A number of individuals who reported reactions what new resources he plans to provide areas with the after consuming aspartame and of those who normally highest rates of (a) obesity-related and (b) alcohol- consume foods containing aspartame without reporting related ill health. [94503] reactions have been recruited. However, additional recruitment, which will increase costs, will be necessary Anne Milton: From 2013-14 the Department intends and the FSA is currently in discussion with the contractors to allocate a ring-fenced public health grant; targeted concerning the remaining work to complete the study. for health inequalities; to upper-tier and unitary local The FSA is aware that the European Food Safety authorities for improving the health and wellbeing of Authority (EFSA) is reviewing aspartame and that it is local populations. very interested in this particular United Kingdom study, The Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation the FSA will inform EFSA about the expected date the has advised on the public health allocation formula, to results will be available. inform the distribution of the public health grant across local authorities. Their recommendations will be published Genito-urinary Medicine in the coming weeks. It will be for local authorities to decide local spending priorities in light of their Joint Strategic Needs Assessments Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and joint health and wellbeing strategies. what assessment he has made of how the indicators in his Public Health Outcomes Framework for sexual and Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health reproductive health reflect the life course approach as what plans his Department has to review and update set out in Healthy Lives, Healthy People: transparency the indicators set out in the Public Health Outcomes in outcomes, proposals for a public health outcomes Framework; and if he will make a statement. [95368] framework; and if he will make a statement. [95375] Anne Milton: The Public Health Outcomes Framework Anne Milton: “Improving Outcomes and Supporting is intended to apply for a three-year period, but with Transparency: a public health outcomes framework for annual reviews to reflect improved data quality and England”, published on 23 January 2012, and a copy of technical developments and to ensure continued alignment which has already been placed in the Library, contains with the national health service and adult social care indicators which, when taken together, will contribute frameworks. to increasing healthy life expectancy and reducing health We will continue to work closely with a wide range of inequalities across the life course. Individual indicators stakeholders in further developing the framework, including within the framework may have more relevance to some local government, the NHS, third sector organisations, age groups than others, according to evidence on where professional groups and other interested parties. the greatest risks to health lie. Health Services: Cumbria The Public Health Outcomes Framework contains indicators on reducing under 18 conceptions, on chlamydia Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health diagnoses in the 15 to 24 age group and on reducing the how much has been spent on (a) primary and (b) number of people presenting with HIV at a late stage of acute health care in (i) Cumbria, (ii) South Cumbria infection. There is high quality data available to measure and (iii) Westmorland and Lonsdale constituency in these indicators, and all cover a range of significant each of the last 10 years. [94857] risks. Mr Simon Burns: Information showing the purchase Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of primary and secondary health care in each year since (1) what plans his Department has to include outcome 2004-05 by primary care trusts (PCTs) in Cumbria is indicators for sexual and reproductive health in its shown in the following table: forthcoming sexual health policy document; [95369] (2) whether he proposes that outcome indicators in £000 Total primary health Total secondary health the forthcoming sexual health policy document will Organisation care purchased care purchased take a life course approach as set out in Healthy Lives, Healthy People: transparency in outcomes, proposals 2004-05 for a public health outcomes framework; and if he will Carlisle and District PCT 38,209 99,050 make a statement. [95370] Eden Valley PCT 21,728 61,213 687W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 688W

parliamentary approval, the NHS Commissioning Board £000 and clinical commissioning groups will each be under a Total primary health Total secondary health Organisation care purchased care purchased duty to have regard to the need to reduce inequalities in access to, and the outcomes of, healthcare. West Cumbria PCT 41,900 119,355 The Secretary of State will have a wider duty, to have Morecambe Bay PCT 91,673 286,440 regard to the need to reduce inequalities relating to the health service (including both NHS and public health). 2005-06 Responding to the analysis set out in the Marmot Carlisle and District PCT 37,904 100,733 review of inequalities, Public Health England will also Eden Valley PCT 23,571 68,163 play a key role in tackling inequalities. From 2013-14, West Cumbria PCT 44,062 121,862 the Department intends to allocate a ring-fenced public Morecambe Bay PCT 102,567 307,787 health grant, targeted for health inequalities, to upper-tier and unitary local authorities for improving the health 2006-07 and well being of local populations. Cumbria PCT 176,609 481,027 Within a broad strategy to tackle health inequalities across the country, the health needs of the most vulnerable 2007-08 people will be addressed through the Inclusion Health Cumbria PCT 188,795 518,901 programme, which will focus on improving access and outcomes for vulnerable groups.

2008-09 Subject to the passage of the Health and Social Care Cumbria PCT 192,042 556,150 Bill, Public Health England is to be created in April 2013 and will deliver the government’s vision of a strong, integrated, public health service encompassing the three 2009-10 domains of public health: health protection, health Cumbria PCT 200,016 614,207 improvement and health services. The NHS is responsible for action to reduce health 2010-11 inequalities locally. Information on local plans to tackle Cumbria PCT 222,443 646,995 health inequalities and progress already made in Cumbria Notes: can be obtained from NHS Cumbria. 1. The lowest level of detail at which financial data are collected by the Department for statutory accounting is by PCT. Data by constituency are not held centrally. Health Services: Foreign Nationals 2. In 2006, Cumbria PCT was formed following a merger of four predecessor PCTs (Carlisle and District PCT, Eden Valley PCT, West Cumbria PCT and part of Morecambe Bay PCT). Morecambe Bay PCT was split across two PCTs. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to disaggregate the figures for the part which merged to Health if he will place in the Library how much unpaid become Cumbria PCT. 3. The figures provided for 2004-05 and 2005-06 are therefore the sum of the debt was owed to the NHS for the treatment of foreign equivalent figures in the predecessor PCTs. nationals from each country in the latest period for 4. The figures are taken from the audited summarisation schedules, from which which figures are available. [94851] the NHS (England) Summarised Accounts are prepared. 5. In common with many other public and private sector organisations, the Department only holds accounting data at organisation level for seven years, Anne Milton: The Department does not hold this and therefore 2004-05 is the first year for which data can be provided. information. Source: 2004-05 to 2010-11 PCT audited summarisation schedules Health Services: Greater London Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health inequalities in respect of (a) health outcomes and (b) who will provide strategic leadership for London’s life expectancy in Cumbria. [94898] health services from April 2013; and if he will make a statement. [94897] Anne Milton: The Government are committed to reducing health inequalities by tackling the differences Mr Simon Burns: The key focus of strategic thinking in access to, and outcomes of, national health service in London, as elsewhere, will be the joint strategic needs treatment; addressing the wider, social causes of ill assessment and joint health and well-being strategy health and early death; and improving individual healthy produced by clinical commissioning groups and local lifestyles. authorities through Health and Well-being Boards. The public health white paper outlines a vision for a In some cases, where a wider geographical focus, is public health system, which puts local authorities at its heeded, such as specialised commissioning, the NHS heart and announced the establishment of Public Health Commissioning Board will, working with others, provide England. The two main principles include empowering leadership through its sub-national arrangements. individuals and communities to address their own health and wellbeing needs; and a commitment to a locally-driven Health Services: Scotland system, with directors of public health and their colleagues in local authorities influencing and driving action in Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for communities. Health when he last met the Cabinet Secretary for The Health and Social Care Bill proposes legal duties Health in the Scottish Government; and when he next for NHS commissioners and the Secretary of State for plans to meet the Cabinet Secretary for Health in the Health around tackling inequalities. Subject to Scottish Government. [95158] 689W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 690W

Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Health Hospitals: Food last met with the Cabinet Secretary for Health in the Scottish Government on 10 February 2012. No further Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Health meetings have currently been arranged. what the average cost is of a meal provided to an in-patient in (a) NHS and (b) foundation trust acute Health Visitors: Manpower hospitals. [94833] Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the format requested. how many health visitors there were in each (a) region In 2010-11, the Department collected data from national and (b) primary care trust in terms of (i) headcount health service trusts for the average total daily cost for and (ii) full-time equivalent staff in (A) 2010 and (B) the provision of all meals and beverages fed to one 2011. [94509] patient per day. This cost relates to all meals and beverages provided to a patient in a day, not the cost of Anne Milton: Information relating to 2011 will be a single meal. For 2010-11, the average total daily cost available from April 2012. across NHS acute hospital trusts was £8.39 and foundation A table containing data for 2010 has been placed in trust acute hospitals was £8.32. The cost is inclusive of the Library. all pay and non-pay costs, including provisions, ward issues, disposables, equipment and its maintenance. The information has been supplied by the NHS and Hospices: Finance has not been amended centrally. The accuracy and completeness of the information is the responsibility of Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for the provider organisation. Health how much funding the Government has provided for hospices in each year since 2007. [94786] Hospitals: Private Finance Initiative John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Paul Burstow: The Department does not provide which hospitals that pay PFI charges (a) will and (b) funding to adult hospices; this is the responsibility of will not receive additional financial support in 2012-13. primary care trusts. The Department has provided some [94545] capital funding support to hospices: £50 million in 2006, later increased to £54 million, most of which was Mr Simon Burns: A review has been undertaken to allocated during 2007 to 2009, and £40 million in 2010-11. analyse the extent to which private finance initiative The Department provides funding for children’s hospices (PFI) schemes are, in themselves, a determinant to why through the children’s hospice and hospice-at-home national health service providers may not be clinically grant scheme. Annual allocations are set out in the or financially viable and where additional support may following table. be needed to address this. This work has determined, so far, that the following organisations will need some £ million additional support to enable them to be sustainable providers of high quality health care services: 2007-08 9 Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS 2008-09 9 Trust; 2009-10 10 Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust; 2010-11 10 Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust; 2011-12 10 North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust; Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust; Hospitals: Cleaning Services South London Healthcare NHS Trust; and St Helens and Knowsley NHS Trust. To meet the criteria for such support, this shortlist of Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health affected trusts will need to demonstrate that they had whether he is planning a deep clean of hospitals in met four key tests: 2012. [94506] the problems they face should be exceptional and beyond those faced by other organisations; Mr Simon Burns: There are no plans to undertake a they must be able to show that the problems they face are national deep clean programme in the national health historic and that they have a clear plan to manage their resources service, however, trusts’ strategic and operational cleaning in the future; plans should make provision for ongoing deep cleaning they must show that they are delivering high levels of annual activity. All hospitals are required to provide a clean productivity savings; and safe environment for healthcare to ensure their continuing they must deliver clinically viable, high quality services, including registration with the Care Quality Commission. High delivering low waiting times and other performance measures. standards of cleanliness support continued reductions On the basis of meeting these requirements, these in healthcare associated infections. trusts will have access to the national support being Patients rightly expect hospitals to be clean and the made available. Some of this funding will be available new patient-led inspections of wards announced by the from 2012-13 and the trusts who will receive this during Prime Minster in January 2012 will provide them with a this period will be determined following the conclusions voice that can be heard in any discussion about local of the ongoing review on a case by case basis for each standards of care. organisation. 691W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 692W

John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health HEY’s accounts report no income related to overseas how much additional financial support for hospitals patients in the years in question. However, HEY has with high PFI charges has been allocated to hospitals informed the Department that the income has been in (a) London and (b) other areas. [94546] recorded in its accounts under the private patient income heading. My right hon. Friend may wish to approach Mr Simon Burns: A review has been undertaken to HEY for further information. analyse the extent to which private finance initiative (PFI) schemes are, in themselves, a determinant to why Incontinence national health service providers may not be clinically or financially viable and where additional support may Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for be needed to address this. This work has determined, so Health how many NHS operations to insert a far, that the following organisations will need some transobturata tape procedure or tensions-free vaginal additional support to enable them to be sustainable tape procedure polypropylene mesh bladder sling to providers of high quality health care services: treat stress urinary incontinence in women there have London been in each of the last eight years; and how many (a) Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS adverse event reports there have been associated with Trust such slings and (b) operations to remove such slings in South London Healthcare NHS Trust the same period. [95457] Other areas Mr Simon Burns: The information is shown in the Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust following tables: Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust Procedure 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust Insertion of 2,580 5,045 5,750 5,569 5,426 St Helens and Knowsley NHS Trust Transobturator Tape For these the amounts that may be allocated to PFI Removal of 68 79 96 128 95 schemes in London and other areas will be determined Transobturator Tape Insertion of 6,137 8,817 8,503 8,397 8,087 following the conclusions of the ongoing review on a Tension-Free case by case basis for each organisation. Vaginal Tape Removal of 287 417 506 475 508 Hull and East Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust: Tension-Free Overseas Visitors Vaginal Tape Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Centre. Activity in English national health service hospitals and English NHS Health (1) what costs have been invoiced to foreign commissioned activity in the independent sector patients not entitled to free NHS care by Hull and East HES is unable to provide data for the years previous Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust in each of the last five to 2006-07. years; [95581] The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory (2) what proportion of costs invoiced to foreign Agency (MHRA) has received 107 incident reports patients not entitled to free NHS care by Hull and East since 2005 involving vaginal mesh tapes used for stress Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust have been written off urinary incontinence (SUI) as follows: in each of the last five years. [95588] Adverse Incident Reports Mr Simon Burns: Trusts’ accounts report total audited income from overseas patients under non-reciprocal 2005 8 arrangements1, and bad debt and claims abandoned for 2006 25 overseas patients. As well as foreign nationals who are 2007 3 not ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom, the data 2008 18 include income from, and written off debt for, UK 2009 19 nationals who are not ordinarily resident here. 2010 15 The value of bad debt and claims abandoned for 2011 19 overseas patients for Hull and East Yorkshire National In addition the MHRA has also had six reports in Health Service Trust (HEY) for 2006-07 to 2010-11 is 2010, and 19 in 2011, where the device is unknown shown in the following table. but we believe they are likely to relate to vaginal tapes 1 This means the amount invoiced for national health service for SUI. hospital treatment to overseas patients not entitled to free NHS care. Information Centre for Health and Social Care

Bad debts and claims abandoned in Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Financial year respect of overseas patients (£) for Health whether his Department plans to change the 2010-11 23,601 (a) function and (b) operation of the NHS 2009-10 4,706 Information Centre. [94782] 2008-09 7430 2007-08 5,431 Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s consultation 2006-07 0 document “Liberating the NHS: An Information Source: Revolution” set a clear vision for the Health and Social NHS Trust Audited Summarisation Schedules Care Information Centre to become a focal point for 693W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 694W information collected from national health service and Anne Milton: The Government are supporting Infertility social care organisations in England. A copy has already Network UK (INUK), the leading infertility support been placed in the Library. The Information Centre will group, to undertake a primary care trusts liaison project. help to join up information and make health and adult The purpose of this three year project is to gauge the social care information more accessible for patients, extent to which commissioners are following the service users and professionals. Provisions in part 9 of recommendations of the National Institute for Health the Health and Social Care Bill are designed to support and Clinical Excellence Fertility Guideline and sharing and clarify the Information Centre’s role and functions. good practice in their treatment of people with fertility The intention is to streamline and simplify national problems. A final report from the project is due later health and adult social care information collections this year. within a single organisation—the Information Centre. The centre’s remit will include social care, thus creating Learning Disability: Advocacy a clearer picture of care delivered and the outcomes achieved. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of (1) best Innovation practice by local authorities for the provision of independent advocacy services for people with learning Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for disabilities; [95141] Health what assessment his Department has made of (2) independent advocacy services funded by local the effect of value-based pricing on innovation. [95238] authorities in ensuring equal access to services by people with learning disabilities. [95142] Mr Simon Burns: Our plans for a new value-based pricing system for new medicines will be designed to Paul Burstow: The Department of Health and the encourage and support the development of innovative Department for Communities and Local Government medicines that deliver significantly improved outcomes make resources available to local authorities (LAs) for for patients and for society as a whole at a price that them to decide how they best support people with represents value for the national health service and for learning disabilities. Most LAs commission independent taxpayers. advocacy for people with learning disabilities as part of The Department’s impact assessment provides more the support and services they offer them. detail on the possible impact of value-based pricing on The Department has however funded the development innovation and is available at: of a ‘quality mark’ scheme, whereby an advocacy umbrella www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ organisation, “Action for Advocacy”, will carry out an @dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_122823.pdf assessment of the quality of advocacy offered by advocacy organisations and will award a quality mark where an IVF organisation meets certain standards. This is an innovative scheme, developed by the sector for the sector, with the aim of recognising quality where it exists, and assisting Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for all advocacy organisations to identify quality as an Health what steps he has taken to encourage primary important part of their work. The quality mark is a care trusts to adhere to the 2004 National Institute for form of assessment and the organisations which have Health and Clinical Excellence guideline on provision achieved this are listed on the website of “Action for of three full cycles of IVF to eligible couples in the last Advocacy”. 12 months. [95092] LAs are required under equality legislation to ensure Anne Milton: Primary care trusts are fully aware of that a variety of measures are available to enable equal their statutory commissioning responsibilities and the access to services. Advocacy plays an important part in need to base commissioning decisions on clinical evidence this. and discussions with local general practitioner commissioners, secondary care clinicians and providers. Malaria The national health service deputy chief executive, David Flory, wrote to primary care trust commissioners last Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health year to highlight to those involved in commissioning how many cases of malaria there were in each region in fertility services the importance of having regard to the (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [94385] National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence fertility guidelines, including the recommendation that Anne Milton: The Health Protection Agency’s (HPA) up to three cycles of in vitro fertilisation are offered to Malaria Reference Laboratory conducts enhanced eligible couples where the woman is aged between 23 surveillance of malaria in the United Kingdom. Data and 39. are collected by county and have been aggregated to Additionally, we support Infertility Network UK, a approximate regions for cases in 2010 as shown in the leading patient support organisation, to develop and following table. Data will not be available for 2011 until promote standardised access criteria and to work in March 2012. partnership with commissioners to encourage good practice in the provision of fertility services. 2010 malaria cases (all species) East of England 183 Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health London 828 what recent assessment he has made of the South East 247 commissioning arrangements for IVF. [95407] 695W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 696W

Table 2: Expenditure on the purchase of secondary health care relating to 2010 malaria cases (all species) maternity services by primary care trust (PCT) £000 South West 44 2009-10 purchase 2010-11 purchase North West 102 of secondary of secondary West Midlands 110 health care: health care: Organisation Maternity Maternity Yorkshire and the Humber 94 East Midlands 53 Berkshire East PCT 19,557 20,517 North East 8 Berkshire West PCT 23,810 24,777 Bexley NHS Care Trust PCT 9,864 12,720 Wales 30 Birmingham East and North 21,132 22,410 PCT Scotland 54 Blackburn with Darwen PCT1 7,672 0 Northern Ireland 6 Blackburn with Darwen 0 8,759 Other 2 Teaching Care Trust Plus PCT1 Total 1,761 Blackpool PCT 5,297 4,973 Bolton PCT 15,303 15,885 Further information about malaria in the UK is Bournemouth and Poole PCT 15,996 16,306 published on the HPA website at: Bradford and Airedale PCT 28,654 30,987 www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/ Brent Teaching PCT 17,563 17,399 Malaria/EpidemiologicalData/ Brighton and Hove City PCT 8,974 8,871 Bristol PCT 27,293 26,778 Maternity Services: Expenditure Bromley PCT 10,663 13,734 Buckinghamshire PCT 22,598 24,384 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bury PCT 9,836 9,566 how much was spent on maternity services in each (a) Calderdale PCT 10,155 10,171 region and (b) NHS trust in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. Cambridgeshire PCT 21,386 24,109 Camden PCT 15,481 12,756 [94510] Central and Eastern Cheshire 18,790 23,164 PCT Anne Milton: This information is not collected in the Central Lancashire PCT 24,766 20,753 format requested. The Department collects accounting City and Hackney Teaching 17,992 19,027 data based on commissioning, of secondary health care PCT by financial year. Information regarding expenditure on Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 16,221 14,922 the purchase of secondary health care relating to maternity PCT services by strategic health authority (SHA) region and County Durham PCT 19,690 20,291 primary care trust in 2009-10 and 2010-11 is set out in Coventry Teaching PCT 17,068 19,199 the following tables. Croydon PCT 21,650 22,736 Table 1: Expenditure on the purchase of secondary health care relating to Cumbria PCT 14,812 14,104 maternity services by SHA region Darlington PCT 3,691 3,783 £000 Derby City PCT 16,336 14,628 Region 2009-10 2010-11 Derbyshire County PCT 20,244 22,968 Devon PCT 29,703 41,385 North East SHA 101,419 114,257 Doncaster PCT 13,111 13,755 North West SHA 329,607 346,241 Yorkshire and Humber 268,088 262,697 Dorset PCT 11,898 12,356 SHA Dudley PCT 12,872 16,925 East Midlands SHA 178,459 206,929 Ealing PCT 13,831 15,140 West Midlands SHA 258,973 277,764 East and North Hertfordshire 26,386 0 East of England SHA 259,029 265,409 PCT2 London SHA 462,634 479,526 East Lancashire Teaching PCT 17,725 18,187 South East Coast SHA 164,272 167,141 East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 10,945 10,156 South Central SHA 174,318 179,337 East Sussex Downs and Weald 11,632 12,659 South West SHA 210,592 233,049 PCT Source: Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 26,575 25,749 2009-10 and 2010-11 PCT Audited Summarisation Schedules Enfield PCT 18,103 18,332 Table 2: Expenditure on the purchase of secondary health care relating to Gateshead PCT 4,745 7,081 maternity services by primary care trust (PCT) Gloucestershire PCT 20,507 20,915 £000 Great Yarmouth and Waveney 5,521 7,466 2009-10 purchase 2010-11 purchase PCT of secondary of secondary health care: health care: Greenwich Teaching PCT 22,776 19,636 Organisation Maternity Maternity Halton and St Helens PCT 15,243 15,526

Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT. 14,306 14,807 Hammersmith and Fulham 12,368 11,114 PCT Barking and Dagenham PCT 87,335 2,733 Hampshire PCT 46,550 49,187 Barnet PCT 217,662 22,577 Haringey Teaching PCT 11,728 15,332 Barnsley PCT 10,747 13,449 Harrow PCT 7,010 8,589 Bassetlaw PCT 5,414 5,488 Hartlepool PCT 4,135 3,891 Bath and North East Somerset 6,651 7,075 PCT Hastings and Rother PCT 6,130 8,371 Bedfordshire PCT 20,207 19,997 Havering PCT 8,688 10,184 697W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 698W

Table 2: Expenditure on the purchase of secondary health care relating to Table 2: Expenditure on the purchase of secondary health care relating to maternity services by primary care trust (PCT) maternity services by primary care trust (PCT) £000 £000 2009-10 purchase 2010-11 purchase 2009-10 purchase 2010-11 purchase of secondary of secondary of secondary of secondary health care: health care: health care: health care: Organisation Maternity Maternity Organisation Maternity Maternity

Heart of Birmingham Teaching 21,827 21,345 Solihull NHS Care Trust PCT 8,744 9,707 PCT Somerset PCT 19,692 23,798 Herefordshire PCT 7,919 6,587 South Birmingham PCT 19,424 20,087 2 Hertfordshire PCT 0 58,224 South East Essex PCT 17,935 14,854 Heywood, Middleton and 12,862 11,852 South Gloucestershire PCT 11,473 10,844 Rochdale PCT South Staffordshire PCT 30,398 31,928 Hillingdon PCT 10,809 15,001 South Tyneside PCT 4,064 4,425 Hounslow PCT 13,476 13,540 South West Essex PCT 24,344 15,211 Hull PCT 17,481 13,908 Southampton City PCT 13,157 13,358 Isle of Wight NHS PCT 6,244 3,605 Southwark PCT 23,369 23,017 Islington PCT 14,846 10,543 Stockport PCT 12,029 14,446 Kensington and Chelsea PCT 4,817 4,339 Stockton-on-Tees Teaching 9,210 9,195 Kingston PCT 8,916 10,961 PCT Kirklees PCT 25,131 23,994 Stoke on Trent PCT 11,692 12,519 Knowsley PCT 6,806 7,876 Suffolk PCT 29,035 30,500 Lambeth PCT 21,666 22,603 Sunderland Teaching PCT 7,138 9,866 Leeds PCT 43,244 35,893 Surrey PCT 49,248 49,444 Leicester City PCT 19,060 21,377 Sutton and Merton PCT 16,532 21,986 Leicestershire County and 26,966 36,883 Swindon PCT 8,747 9,171 Rutland PCT Tameside and Glossop PCT 12,501 13,552 Lewisham PCT 24,006 24,006 Telford and Wrekin PCT 7,437 7,895 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 28,515 37,903 Torbay Care PCT 5,634 7,330 Liverpool PCT 24,436 28,166 Tower Hamlets PCT 19,691 18,457 Luton Teaching PCT 10,629 14,280 Trafford PCT 16,297 17,358 Manchester PCT 24,658 23,861 Wakefield District PCT 17,000 18,154 Medway PCT 12,089 11,551 Walsall Teaching PCT 15,850 15,429 Mid Essex PCT 12,806 14,897 Waltham Forest PCT 15,598 16,952 Middlesbrough PCT 6,485 8,887 Wandsworth PCT 17,835 22,341 Milton Keynes PCT 14,029 13,578 Warrington PCT 7,435 7,466 Newcastle PCT 7,511 7,910 Warwickshire PCT 15,581 19,312 Newham PCT 27,358 25,936 West Essex PCT 10,744 11,521 Norfolk PCT 26,316 27,910 West Hertfordshire PCT2 30,983 0 North East Essex PCT 14,683 14,831 West Kent PCT 25,468 27,287 North East Lincolnshire Care 5,103 5,189 Trust Plus PCT West Sussex PCT 24,156 23,209 North Lancashire Teaching 6,583 6,526 Western Cheshire PCT 12,358 16,268 PCT Westminster PCT 6,939 6,283 North Lincolnshire PCT 8,552 8,633 Wiltshire PCT 18,612 20,993 North Somerset PCT 9,114 9,061 Wirral PCT 16,690 16,031 North Staffordshire PCT 4,969 5,887 Wolverhampton City PCT 13,807 16,598 North Tyneside PCT 20,636 22,901 Worcestershire PCT 24,742 26,176 North Yorkshire and York PCT 27,441 27,763 1 In April 2010 Blackburn with Darwen PCT became Blackburn with Darwen Northamptonshire Teaching 26,780 31,165 Teaching Care Trust Plus PCT. 2 PCT In April 2010 East and North Hertfordshire PCT and West Hertfordshire merged to become Hertfordshire PCT. Northumberland Care PCT 8,912 9,369 Source: Nottingham City PCT 13,663 14,035 2009-10 and 2010-11 PCT Audited Summarisation Schedules Nottinghamshire County 21,781 22,482 Teaching PCT Mental Illness: Drugs Oldham PCT 12,462 12,084 Oxfordshire PCT 20,383 22,224 Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Peterborough PCT 8,054 11,609 Health how many people have been prescribed Plymouth Teaching PCT 9,051 12,115 antipsychotic drugs (a) in total and (b) while receiving Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 7,990 7,707 treatment in hospital, by primary care trust area, in the Redbridge PCT 9,649 10,413 latest period for which figures are available. [95153] Redcar and Cleveland PCT 4,902 6,658 Richmond and Twickenham 9,413 11,139 Mr Simon Burns: Information on the number of PCT people prescribed antipsychotic drugs while in hospital Rotherham PCT 13,596 13,690 is not collected centrally. Although information is not Salford PCT 11,502 14,815 collected on the number of people prescribed a particular Sandwell PCT 16,668 16,422 medicine in primary care, data are available for the Sefton PCT 9,238 10,216 number of prescription items prescribed and subsequently Sheffield PCT 36,928 36,955 dispensed. The following table provides information for Shropshire County PCT 8,843 9,338 antipsychotic drugs as defined by the British National 699W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 700W

Formulary sections 4.2.1 “Antipsychotic Drugs” and Prescription items for antipsychotic drugs prescribed in England and dispensed in 4.2.2 “Antipsychotic depot injections”, for the latest the community in the UK, December 2010 to November 2011 available 12-month period. Primary care trust (PCT) Number of prescription items Prescription items for antipsychotic drugs prescribed in England and dispensed in Hertfordshire 118,972 the community in the UK, December 2010 to November 2011 Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale 44,778 Primary care trust (PCT) Number of prescription items Hillingdon 32,381 Hounslow 33,186 Ashton, Leigh and Wigan 58,624 Hull Teaching 46,455 Barking and Dagenham 24,564 Isle of Wight NHS 25,221 Barnet 39,843 Islington 28,235 Barnsley 37,136 Kensington and Chelsea 20,208 Bassetlaw 11,074 Kingston 19,234 Bath and North East Somerset 24,447 Kirklees 65,268 Bedfordshire 48,949 Knowsley 35,171 Berkshire East 54,222 Lambeth 48,617 Berkshire West 55,297 Leeds 125,620 Bexley Care Trust 18,692 Leicester City 56,691 Birmingham East and North 54,215 Leicestershire County and Rutland 70,560 Blackburn with Darwen Teaching 22,670 Care Trust Plus Lewisham 42,169 Blackpool 37,611 Lincolnshire 113,016 Bolton 56,344 Liverpool 106,809 Bournemouth and Poole Teaching 46,562 Luton 26,311 Bradford and Airedale Teaching 86,381 Manchester 134,786 Brent Teaching 41,553 Medway 32,575 Brighton and Hove City 64,588 Mid Essex 48,728 Bristol 67,604 Middlesbrough 29,861 Bromley 24,368 Milton Keynes 23,913 Buckinghamshire 46,916 Newcastle 69,085 Bury 39,113 Newham 46,980 Calderdale 28,436 Norfolk 146,908 Cambridgeshire 74,601 North East Essex 59,540 Camden 27,803 North East Lincolnshire Care Trust 29,502 Plus Central and Eastern Cheshire 66,251 North Lancashire Teaching 57,391 Central Lancashire 63,411 North Lincolnshire 22,413 City and Hackney Teaching 31,731 North Somerset 30,822 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly. 66,787 North Staffordshire 28,034 County Durham 89,954 North Tyneside 40,431 Coventry Teaching 70,973 North Yorkshire and York 77,734 Croydon 38,417 Northamptonshire Teaching 112,063 Cumbria Teaching 91,386 Northumberland Care Trust 48,758 Darlington 25,786 Nottingham City 34,815 Derby City 37,788 Nottinghamshire County Teaching 59,032 Derbyshire County 85,612 Oldham 39,669 Devon 105,020 Oxfordshire 75,584 Doncaster 32,365 Peterborough 23,406 Dorset 40,713 Plymouth Teaching 47,395 Dudley 46,976 Portsmouth City Teaching 36,803 Ealing 43,488 Redbridge 28,866 East Lancashire Teaching 55,762 Redcar and Cleveland 22,606 East Riding of Yorkshire 32,244 Richmond and Twickenham 26,614 East Sussex Downs and Weald 52,932 Rotherham 28,174 Eastern and Coastal Kent 92,755 Salford 61,278 Enfield 38,393 Sandwell 43,667 Gateshead 36,931 Sefton 63,443 Gloucestershire 82,619 Sheffield 79,327 Great Yarmouth and Waveney 46,614 Greenwich Teaching 34,581 Shropshire County 35,641 Halton and St Helens. 48,011 Solihull 24,710 Hammersmith and Fulham 24,426 Somerset 53,776 Hampshire 168,286 South Birmingham 57,292 Haringey Teaching 46,214 South East Essex 41,695 Harrow 25,317 South Gloucestershire 21,061 Hartlepool 15,712 South Staffordshire 69,913 Hastings and Rother 37,826 South Tyneside 26,299 Havering 26,406 South West Essex 44,645 Heart of Birmingham 44,830 Southampton City 47,244 Herefordshire 23,045 Southwark 32,318 701W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 702W

Prescription items for antipsychotic drugs prescribed in England and dispensed in We have increased the number of midwives in training the community in the UK, December 2010 to November 2011 to almost 2,500 but need further analysis to find out Primary care trust (PCT) Number of prescription items how many midwives are heeded on a national level to Stockport 53,296 meet the current and future demand. Stockton-on-Tees Teaching 20,078 We have asked the Centre for Workforce Intelligence Stoke on Trent 40,288 to analyse the future work force needed across the Suffolk 73,199 whole of the maternity team, not just midwives. Sunderland Teaching 57,839 Surrey 115,890 Midwives: Training Sutton and Merton 45,022 Swindon 28,751 Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Tameside and Glossop 43,475 Health how many places for student midwives were Telford and Wrekin 22,327 commissioned in each region for the 2011-12 academic Torbay Care Trust 24,178 year. [95126] Tower Hamlets 51,635 Trafford 40,091 Anne Milton: The Department does not collect the Wakefield District 53,000 number of student midwife training commissions by Walsall Teaching 43,110 academic year. However, the number of midwife training Waltham Forest 34,085 commissions in each region for the financial year 2011-12, Wandsworth Teaching 44,424 based on strategic health authority (SHA) plans, are Warrington 27,516 shown in the following table. These are the planned Warwickshire 58,198 figures only and final outturn figures will not be available West Essex 32,307 until May 2012. West Kent 86,455 Midwifery training commissions by SHA in 2011-12 West Sussex 109,184 Midwifery commissions Western Cheshire 35,585 Westminster 30,108 NHS North East 90 Wiltshire 50,400 NHS North West 223 Wirral 57,373 NHS Yorkshire and the Humber 259 Wolverhampton City 45,519 NHS East Midlands 172 Worcestershire 76,072 NHS West Midlands 293 Unidentified 3,804 NHS East of England 274 England total1 7,588,083 NHS London 576 1 Does not include 120,792 hospital prescription items dispensed in the NHS South East Coast 222 community, which cannot be allocated to individual PCTs. NHS South Central 209 Source: Prescribing Analysis and CosT tool (PACT) system. NHS South West 154 England Total 2,472 Midwives Note: The figures include both degree and 18 month diploma courses. Source: Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Multi professional education and training quarterly monitoring returns. what proportion of midwifery graduates started working as midwives in the NHS within six months of Neurology graduation in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [94383] Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The data are not available centrally. Health with reference to the report by the National The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is Audit Office on services for people with neurological the official agency for the collection, analysis and conditions, what assessment he has made of the factors dissemination of quantitative information about higher underlying the rise in emergency admissions for people education. The latest data available from the 2009-10 with neurological conditions between 2004-05 and HESA Destinations of Leavers Survey show 81.7% of 2009-10; and what steps he plans to take to address this midwifery graduates in the United Kingdom went on to issue. [94862] work as midwives. The 2010-11 data will be published in July 2012. HESA data are UK wide and more time is Paul Burstow: We have made no assessment of the required to extract specific data for England. factors underlying the rise in emergency admissions, as Midwives: Manpower reported in the National Audit Office report on services for those living with neurological conditions.. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health We are considering the findings of the National by what date he estimates midwife numbers will have Audit Office report on services for people with neurological risen to meet his commitment to recruit 3,000 new conditions, and will be responding in due course. midwives. [94511] Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Anne Milton: There was no commitment to increase for Health with reference to the National Audit Office midwife numbers in the coalition agreement. report on neurological services, if he will ensure that We are committed to giving mothers the support and neurological conditions have similar national strategy care they need throughout their pregnancy, birth and and clinical leadership arrangements conditions to after birth. Safety and high quality care for mothers are conditions such as cancer and coronary heart disease. at the heart of maternity services. [95034] 703W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 704W

Paul Burstow: We are considering the findings of the SHA area 2009-10 2010-11 National Audit Office report on services for people with neurological conditions, and will be responding in due Yorkshire and the 6,849 6,257 course. Health is a devolved matter, decisions concerning Humber SHA the organisation of neurological services are a matter East Midlands 5,074 4,449 for Ministers in the Northern Ireland executive. West Midlands SHA 7,210 8,077 East of England SHA 5,057 5,124 NHS Shared Business Services London SHA 5,986 6,875 South East Coast SHA 3,818 3,973 Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health South Central SHA 4,432 3,962 pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2012, Official South West SHA 5,746 5,893 Report, column 774W, on the NHS, how many England total 56,718 57,830 employees of NHS Shared Business Services are based in (a) the UK and (b) abroad; and what the The following table shows the number of criminal corresponding figures are for any companies sanctions following assaults against NHS staff in each contracted to provide call centre services for NHS SHA area and the total in England in 2009-10 and 2010-11. Shared Business Services. [94362]

Mr Simon Burns: NHS Shared Business Services SHA area 2009-10 2010-11 employs a total of 1,427 people, of which 671 are based North East SHA 108 104 in India and 756 are based in the United Kingdom. North West SHA 154 318 NHS Shared Business Services has no companies Yorkshire and the 97 83 contracted to provide call centre services. Humber SHA East Midlands 181 132 NHS: Ancillary Staff West Midlands SHA 103 93 East of England SHA 66 58 Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for London SHA 234 439 Health when he expects to publish the results of the South East Coast SHA 65 78 non-medical workforce census taken on 30 September South Central SHA 42 34 2011; and on what dates previous censuses were South West SHA 78 58 published in each of the last three years. [95087] England total 1,128 1,397 Criminal sanctions include: Mr Simon Burns: The annual non-medical workforce census taken on 30 September 2011 will be published by Cautions and Conditional Cautions; the NHS Information Centre on 21 March 2012. The Community Rehabilitation or Punishment Orders; last three annual workforce censuses were published on Conditional Discharges; 22 March 2011, 25 March 2010 and 25 March 2009. Fines; NHS: Crimes of Violence Fixed Penalty Notices; and Imprisonment (including suspended sentences). Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Information on the number of reported physical assaults how many (a) violent incidents against NHS staff, (b) against NHS staff and criminal sanctions following physical assaults against NHS staff and (c) criminal assaults, broken down by health body, for the years sanctions against individuals who had assaulted NHS 2009-10 and 2010-11 is in the tables showing the number staff there were in each (i) NHS hospital trust, (ii) of reported physical assaults on NHS staff in 2009-10, strategic health authority area and (iii) England in (A) broken down by NHS trust/PCT and ‘Tables showing 2010 and (B) 2011. [94505] the number of reported physical assaults on NHS staff in 2010-11, broken down by NHS Trust/PCT’ which Mr Simon Burns: Information on violent incidents have already been placed in the Library. against national health service staff is not available centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate NHS: Negligence cost. The following table shows the number of reported Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for physical assaults against NHS staff in each strategic Health how much has been paid out in respect of (a) health authority (SHA) area and the total in England in all settled claims and (b) settled claims arising from 2009-10 and 2010-11. obstetric care under the Clinical Negligence Scheme for Trusts in the last five year period for which figures are SHA area 2009-10 2010-11 available. [95130]

North East SHA 5,555 5,255 Mr Simon Burns: The data requested are set out in North West SHA 6,991 7,965 the following tables.

Table 1: All payments for clinical negligence scheme for trusts (CNST) claims closed 2006-07 to 2010-11 excluding claims settled as periodical payments Number of claims Number of claims closed with Defence costs paid Claimant costs paid Year of closure closed damages Damages paid (£) (£) (£) Total paid (£)

2006-07 5,515 2,836 176,434,297 31,644,275 59,210,336 267,288,908 705W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 706W

Table 1: All payments for clinical negligence scheme for trusts (CNST) claims closed 2006-07 to 2010-11 excluding claims settled as periodical payments Number of claims Number of claims closed with Defence costs paid Claimant costs paid Year of closure closed damages Damages paid (£) (£) (£) Total paid (£)

2007-08 5,553 3,198 222,576£176 36,373,751 76,661,294 335,611,222 2008-09 4,825 2,855 216,805,560 34,677,502 84,475,627 335,958,690 2009-10 5,563 3,507 197,956,452 34,675,790 97,094,066 329,726,307 2010-11 7,318 4,983 393,868,040 57,721,362 171,917,026 623,506,427 Total 28,774 17,379 1,207,640,525 195,092,681 489,358,349 1,892,091,554 Source: NHS Litigation Authority

Table 2: All payments for CNST claims settled 2006-07 to 2010-11 as periodical payments as at 31 January 2012 Number of claims Year of settlement settled Damages paid (£) Defence costs paid (£) Claimant costs paid (£) Total paid (£)

2006-07 43 60,765,693 4,162,714 8,658,356 73,586,763 2007-08 43 70,186,748 3,885,583 9,956,947 84,029,277 2008-09 89 166,981,269 11,468,177 25,609,625 204,059,072 2009-10 87 153,622,637 8,905,556 24,269,211 186,797,404 2010-11 108 189,892,250 10,478,649 27,372,392 227,743,290 Total 370 641,448,597 38,900,679 95,866,531 776,215,807 Source: NHS Litigation Authority

Table 3: All payments for obstetrics CNST claims closed 2006-07 to 2010-11 excluding claims settled as periodical payments Number of claims Number of claims closed with Defence costs paid Claimant costs paid Year of closure closed damages Damages paid (£) (£) (£) Total paid (£)

2006-07 754 318 58,932,217 6,653,756 9,983,824 75,569,797 2007-08 682 366 82,255,548 7,326,106 13,760,200 103,341,855 2008-09 584 319 70,199,272 6,596,024 14,883,865 91,679,162 2009-10 580 349 37,297,382 5,530,431 13,177,622 56,005,435 2010-11 843 542 87,921,826 9,598,013 25,220,724 122,740,563 Total 3,443 1,894 336,606,247 35,704,329 77,026,235 449,336,811 Source: NHS Litigation Authority

Table 4: All payments for obstetrics CNST claims settled 2006-07 to 2010-11 as periodical payments as at 31 January 2012 Number of claims Year of settlement settled Damages paid (£) Defence costs paid (£) Claimant costs paid (£) Total paid (£)

2006-07 27 38,902,875 2,806,829 5,610,698 47,320,402 2007-08 25 46,488,992 2,299,048 5,927,147 54,715,187 2008-09 48 104,855,798 6,724,813 14,474,977 126,055,587 2009-10 48 100,863,762 5,280,976 12,942,948 119,087,686 2010-11 56 124,811,827 5,896,480 14,944,310 145,652,617 Total 204 415,923,254 23,008,146 53,900,079 492,831,479 Source: NHS Litigation Authority

NHS: Private Sector NHS: Reorganisation

Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for if he will take steps to ensure health service Health what plans he has to encourage greater use of restructuring does not occur where the public private sector incentives in NHS procurement; and if consultation process determines that the majority of he will make a statement. [94378] local people are opposed. [95133] Mr Simon Burns: The Government are clear that any Mr Simon Burns: The Department is working on a changes to local health services should be locally-led, new procurement strategy to be launched in April, this improve quality and with decisions made in the best is in response to the Committee of Public Accounts interest of patients. Under section 242 of the National report on the Procurement of Consumables in the NHS Health Service (NHS) Act 2006, NHS organisations Acute and Foundation Trusts. must make arrangements that secure the involvement of people who use services in the development and The strategy will help trusts deliver better practice in consideration of proposals for changes in the way those procurement and will include guidance for better use of services are provided. This was strengthened further in private sector partners. However it is up to individual 2010 by the Secretary of State’s four reconfiguration trusts to decide when and how to use private sector tests, which require NHS organisations to demonstrate organisations and incentives. evidence of: robust public and patient engagement; 707W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 708W support from local clinical commissioners; support for over recorded as obese by SHA area for 2010 is available patient choice; and clarity on the clinical evidence base. in Table 10.3 on page 15 of chapter 10—Adult Where local communities have concerns over proposals, anthropometric measures, overweight and obesity of we would expect the NHS to listen and respond to these the ’Health Survey for England—2010: Respiratory concerns as part of any engagement activity. health’. The information is available from the following: The outcome of a service reconfiguration consultation www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/hse10report is also subject to scrutiny by local authority scrutiny These publications have been placed in the Library. committees. Where a committee is not satisfied with the content of the consultation, or that the proposal is in Organs: Donors the interests of the health service in its area, it has powers to refer these issues to the Secretary of State. In Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health addition, the Government propose in the Health and what the level of organ donation was in each year from Social Care Bill to extend the powers of local authorities 1997. [94950] to enable effective scrutiny of any provider of any NHS-funded services. Anne Milton: The information is provided in the following table. Nurses: Schools

Solid organ donors in the United Kingdom, between 1 April 1996 and 31 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health December 2011 what the ratio of fully-qualified school nurses to the Financial year number of schools was in England in (a) 2010 and (b) of donation Deceased donor Living donor Total 2011. [94386] 1996-97 855 224 1,079 Anne Milton: The ratio of school nurses to schools is 1997-98 796 224 1,020 not collected by the Department. 1998-99 738 285 1,023 In 2010 there were 1,104 full-time equivalent qualified 1999-2000 777 338 1,115 school nurses. Figures for 2011 will be available from 2000-01 773 372 1,145 April 2012. 2001-02 745 386 1,131 2002-03 777 397 1,174 Obesity 2003-04 770 472 1,242 2004-05 751 485 1,236 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2005-06 765 599 1,364 what public health campaigns targeted at the 2006-07 793 702 1,495 prevention and management of obesity his 2007-08 809 858 1,667 Department ran in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011; what the (i) 2008-09 899 961 1,860 start and (ii) end date was of each such campaign; and 2009-10 959 1,062 2,021 how much his Department (A) allocated and (B) spent 2010-11 1,010 1,045 2,055 on each campaign. [94387] Note: ‘The level of organ donation’ has been taken to mean the number of donors that have donated their organs in the given time frame. Anne Milton: The Change4Life campaign has been Source: the only public health campaign targeting at the prevention NHS Blood and Transplant and management of obesity from its launch in January 2009 to the present. The budget for the campaign has Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health been as follows: what plans his Department has to increase levels of organ donation. [94951] £ million Anne Milton: Since the publication of the report by 2010-11 9.8 the Organ Donation Taskforce in 2008, a great deal of 2011-12 11.17 work has taken place to strengthen the donation programme and increase the number of organs available for patients. Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health There are now over 200 highly trained Specialist Nurses what the rate of obesity amongst adults was in (a) for Organ Donation based in hospitals across the country 2010 and (b) 2011 in each primary care trust area. and NHS Blood and Transplant is continuing to train [95549] and recruit more staff into this vital role. Clinical Leads for Organ Donation have been appointed in every acute Anne Milton: Information is not available in the hospital working closely with hospital Organ Donation format requested. Committees to increase donation rates. This means that Information on the percentage of obese adults aged we are on track to meet the 50% improvement in 16 and over in England is available in the ’Health deceased donor rates by 2013 anticipated by the taskforce, Survey for England—2010 trend tables’, Adult trend with latest available figures showing that deceased donor tables, Table 4. Information is provided for the years numbers have increased by 31.4%. 1993 to 2010. This information is available from the A Transitional Steering Group (TSG), chaired by following: Chris Rudge, has been established to help maintain the www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/hse10trends momentum achieved pending the introduction of the Information on the prevalence of obesity in adults by NHS Commissioning Board. During the transitional primary care trust (PCT) area is not available. However, period the TSG will be focusing on the six big wins— information is available by strategic health authority optimising deceased donation rates through undertaking (SHA) for 2010. The percentage of adults aged 16 and brainstem death testing and considering donation after 709W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 710W cardiac death in all appropriate circumstances, increasing osteoarthritis. It is also in discussion with the British consent rates, increasing donation from emergency medicine, Orthopaedic Association about the development of a timely referral of donors and better donor management. strategic partnership to address a number of issues relating to trauma and orthopaedic surgery. Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health In 2012-13, the Department will pilot ways in which what assessment his Department has made of the (a) the national health service can use and offer alternative demand for and (b) take-up of organ donation. providers to deliver the NHS Constitution 18-week [94952] maximum waiting time right in the best interest of patients. The pilots will focus especially on orthopaedics Anne Milton: The information is provided in the and the lessons will be available for full roll-out from following table. April 2013. Table: Number of organ donors and organ transplants in the United Kingdom, 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2011, and patients on the active transplant list as at 31 March Out of Area Treatment: Scotland Financial year 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Deceased donor organ 2,552 2,645 2,695 Health pursuant to the answer of 10 January 2012, transplants Official Report, columns 120-1W, on out-of-area Living donor organ 961 1,062 1,045 treatment: Scotland, how many elective surgeries were transplants carried out in the private sector; and how many were Total organ transplants 3,513 3,707 3,740 for specialist treatment not available in Scotland. Active transplant 7,877 7,997 7,800 [95564] waiting list Notes: 1. ‘Demand for organ donation’ has been taken to mean the number of people Mr Simon Burns: The Department of Health and waiting for an organ transplant. Figures are provided for the active waiting list NHS Information Centre for health and social care in at the end of each financial year—‘Active’ means the patient is currently in a state to receive a England do not collect information on independent transplant. sector activity in England that has been funded by NHS 2. ‘Take up of organ donation’ has been taken to mean the number of organ Scotland. transplants that have taken place. This differs from the number of donors as a donor can donate more than one organ. Source: NHS Blood and Transplant Palliative Care: Costs Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people in (a) Dartford constituency Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) Kent were registered as organ donors in each Health what estimate he has made of the cost of of the last five years. [95074] end-of-life care in hospitals in England in the latest period for which figures are available. [94787] Anne Milton: The Information requested is provided in the following table. Paul Burstow: This information is not collected centrally. Number of registrations on the organ donor register (ODR) in Kent county and The Department conducted special exercises to collect Dartford constituency, 1 January 2007 to 31 December 2011, by year information on expenditure by primary care trusts on Year of registration1 Kent2 Dartford2 specialist palliative care in 2006-07 and 2010-11. This 2007 29,369 1,591 data includes some information on expenditure in hospitals. 2008 31,823 1,688 However, this does not provide a full picture of expenditure 2009 31,422 1,658 in hospitals and we do not know how many patients 2010 32,287 1,759 receive end of life care in hospitals or the cost of that 2011 29,679 1,581 care. This data is available on the Department’s website: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Current total3 542,722 27,346 PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_086277 1 This is based on registrants on the ODR as at 9 February 2012 and excludes www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ people who registered in this time period and have subsequently died or been PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_130239 removed from the ODR. 2 Areas defined from the Office for National Statistics postcode datasets. The Government have made a commitment to develop 3 The current total number of registrations on the ODR as at 9 February 2012. a per-patient funding system for palliative care. We set Source: NHS Blood and Transplant. up the independent palliative care funding review to help take this work forward. Osteoporosis: Surgery The review, which reported in July 2011, came up with a range of significant proposals which we now Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for need to consider in detail. One of its key conclusions Health what steps his Department is taking to ensure was that “There is a stunning lack of good data surrounding NHS patients have access to total joint replacements to costs for palliative care in England.” It recommended treat debilitating osteoarthritic conditions within the that a number of pilots be set up to collect data and 18 week target time. [94716] refine its proposals, due to the lack of good quality data currently available. So, from April 2012 we shall, be Paul Burstow: The NHS Medical Directorate is working setting up pilots to collect a range of data to help test to support the Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Alliance the review’s recommendations. Our aim is have to have in identifying the means to improve services for patients a new funding system in place by 2015, a year sooner with common musculoskeletal conditions, including than the review proposed. 711W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 712W

Palliative Care: Standards for the safety and licensing of medicines in the UK, investigate all reports of suspected breaches of medicines Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for legislation including matters relating to Article 81. The Health what steps he is taking to improve care for MHRA has reminded distributors of their duties in this end-of-life patients. [94785] area, and continues to undertake targeted inspections to ensure compliance with the regulations. Paul Burstow: The Government have confirmed their The Department, the MHRA and pharmaceutical commitment to improving quality and choice in palliative supply chain stakeholders are working collaboratively and end of life care in the White Paper ‘Equity and to better understand and mitigate the impact of supply excellence: Liberating the NHS’. The Department’s ‘End difficulties to ensure that patients receive the medicines of Life Care Strategy’ provides a blueprint for improving they need. In February 2011 the group published joint these services for adults and we are pressing on with its guidance ‘Best Practice for Ensuring the Efficient Supply implementation. and Distribution of Medicines to Patients’ and a copy We are making progress in implementing the strategy. has already been placed in the Library. This includes: providing support for staff training and The guidance provides a sound basis for helping to development in end of life care; completing pilots of ensure that patients get their medicines when they need locality registers (now called Electronic Palliative Care them. Co-ordination Systems), which will allow all local services to co-ordinate care more effectively; introducing, a national Physiotherapy: Finance survey of the bereaved, to help us understand the experience for patients and carers; and establishing a national David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for coalition of organisations, Dying Matters, to raise public Health what criteria primary care trusts use to awareness of issues around death, dying and bereavement. determine which types of physiotherapy to provide The ‘End of Life Care Strategy Third Annual Report’, funding for. [95485] which sets out progress in implementing the strategy, was published in September 2011. A copy has already Anne Milton: It is the responsibility of local national been placed in the Library and is available on the health service organisations to commission services to Department’s website at: meet the needs of their community including the provision www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ of physiotherapy services. Each physiotherapist will PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_130239 assess the patient and decide what type of physiotherapy The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence to use based on the patient’s clinical need. has published a Quality Standard on end of life care for adults. Pregnancy In addition, we are undertaking work to develop a Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health fairer funding system for palliative care, following on for what reason the Public Health Outcomes from the report of the independent Palliative Care Framework does not include an indicator for Funding Review. conception among women over the age of 18; and what Pharmacy assessment his Department has made on the potential effect of the limitation of the under 18 conceptions Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State indicator on delivering improved public health for Health if he will consider making quick and outcomes for women over the age of 18; and if he will convenient supply of prescription medications to local make a statement. [95367] pharmacies a legal obligation on the manufacturer and supplier. [95488] Anne Milton: ‘Improving Outcomes and Supporting Transparency: a public health outcomes framework for Mr Simon Burns: Best practice guidance was jointly England’, published on 23 January 2012, and a copy of agreed by the Government and organisations representing which has already been placed in the Library, contains various parts of the supply chain. This said that the aim indicators which can make the maximum contribution of all parties should be that, under normal circumstances, to the overarching aims of increasing healthy life expectancy pharmacies should receive medicines within 24 hours. and reducing health inequalities. It includes an indicator The Government are cautious about increasing the on reducing under 18 conceptions as evidence shows regulatory burden on the supply chain. that teenage pregnancy can lead to adverse outcomes for both teenage parents and their children. We consider Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State that adults aged 18 and over should be able to make for Health what assessment he has made of the legal their own decisions about how many children they have duties of pharmaceutical manufacturers and suppliers and indicators that seek to limit this choice are not to ensure adequate domestic supply of medications to appropriate. Once higher quality data become available local pharmacists. [95491] we will consider developing an indicator which measures access to the full range of contraception. Mr Simon Burns: Article 81 of European directive 2001/83, requires the maintenance of appropriate and Primary Care Trusts: Finance continued supply of medicinal products by marketing authorisation holders and distributors so that the needs Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for of patients are covered. Article 81 has been implemented Health (1) whether his Department has issued into United Kingdom medicines legislation. amended guidance to primary care trusts on The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory procedures for the consideration of individual funding Agency (MHRA), the Government body responsible requests; [95014] 713W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 714W

(2) on how many occasions Coventry Primary Care Ritalin Trust has refused an individual funding request in each of the last five years. [95016] Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the change was in the level of dispensed Mr Simon Burns: The Department published “Defining prescriptions of methylphenidate hydrochloride in Guiding Principles for Processes supporting Local Decision England between 1997 and 2010. [95044] Making about Medicines” in January 2009, “Supporting rational local decision-making about medicines (and treatments)—A handbook of good practice guidance” Mr Simon Burns: Prescription cost analysis data show was published by the National Prescribing Centre (NPC) that in 1997, 92,079 prescription items for methylphenidate in February 2009, and Directions to primary care trusts hydrochloride were dispensed in the community, in (PCTs) and national health service trusts concerning England. This compares with 661,463 prescription items decisions about drugs and other treatments were issued in 2010. This represents an increase of 569,384 items in March 2009. All remain extant. (618.4%). The NPC has subsequently produced resources and information to support those involved in local decision Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health making. Further information is available on the NPC’s what steps his Department is taking to monitor the use website at: of methylphenidate hydrochloride in children under 16 years old. [95045] www.npc.nhs.uk/local_decision_making Information on PCT decisions on individual funding Anne Milton: Information on numbers of prescriptions requests is not collected centrally. is taken from the Prescription Cost Analysis (PCA) system, supplied by the Prescription Services Division Primary Care Trusts: Redundancy Pay of the NHS Business Services Authority. The PCA system is not able to provide information on numbers of Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for prescriptions by age of patients. Health what the cost to the public purse was of staff In respect of the use of methylphenidate hydrochloride redundancies in each primary care trust area since in the treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity April 2010. [95613] Disorder (ADHD) for children and young people, in December 2011, the Chief Medical Officer, the Chief Mr Simon Burns: The information is not collected in Nursing Officer, the Chief Pharmaceutical Officer and the format requested. the NHS Medical Director wrote to national health service clinicians and staff drawing their attention to The total resource cost of exit packages for primary the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence care trust (PCT) staff leaving their organisation in (NICE) guideline on ADHD. This guideline highlights 2010-11 was £168.7 million. A table breaking down this the need for any drug treatment for children and young cost for each PCT has been placed in the Library. The people to always form part of a comprehensive treatment total value of £168.7 million includes £60 million for plan (including psychological, behaviour and educational compulsory redundancies and £108.7 million for other advice and interventions). It is important that a range departures. The figure for other departures includes the of clinicians—paediatricians and general practitioners cost of both early retirements (excluding those relating as well as child and adolescent mental health service to ill-health) and voluntary redundancies. However, it is professionals—are well informed on the diagnosis and not possible to separately identify the value of either of treatment of mental health problems in children and these costs from the data collected. young people. Figures for the 2011-12 financial year will be available Psychological therapies can in some cases form part in the summer, once the Department’s Annual Report of the holistic package of care that NICE recommended and Accounts are laid before Parliament. for children and young people with ADHD. High-quality, evidence-based treatment with a focus on individual Private Patients: Health Insurance patient outcomes is central to our programme to transform mental health services for children. Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Department does not have data oh the number if he will bring forward legislative proposals to compel of children and young people assessed with ADHD, private health care providers to have full indemnity against which prescribing patterns could be compared. cover for NHS patients. [94659] Social Services: Registration Mr Simon Burns: The NHS Standard Contract requires providers to obtain appropriate indemnity in relation to Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for clinical negligence. Health if he will take steps to ensure that social The Government’s aim is for equivalent safeguards workers who register or renew their membership of the to be in place for patients irrespective of who provides General Social Care Council before July 2012 either their NHS services. The Department will therefore be (a) receive a rebate for the remaining amount of their asking the NHS Litigation Authority for advice on membership when the General Social Care Council options for modifying the existing clinical negligence ceases to exist as the registration body or (b) have their scheme for trusts to enable all providers of NHS services membership automatically rolled over to the successor to be members. body. [95501] 715W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 716W

Paul Burstow: Subject to parliamentary approval of service users to consider the standards of proficiency the Health and Social Care Bill, all social workers on and the threshold level of qualifications for social workers the General Social Care Council’s register of social in England. workers will automatically transfer to the Health Professions Suicide Council’s register on 1 August 2012. They will then have up to four months to pay the registration fee to the Health Professions Council. Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects to publish his Department’s suicide Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for prevention strategy. [94883] Health what guidelines he has provided to the Health Professions Council on the registration of social Paul Burstow: We are currently considering the responses workers. [95502] we received to the consultation on a new suicide prevention strategy and intend to publish later this year. Paul Burstow: The Health and Social Care Bill sets Surgery out the proposed statutory framework for the regulation of social workers in England by the Health Professions Council. Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to his answer of 1 February 2012, No formal guidelines have been given to the Health Official Report, column 683W, on surgery, what the (a) Professions Council by the Secretary of State for Health mean and (b) median waiting time was for open on the registration of social workers. The Health Professions excision of the prostate procedures for patients aged (i) Council is an independent statutory body and it will be 15 to 39, (ii) 40 to 49, (iii) 50 to 54, (iv) 55 to 59, (v) 60 for the council itself to determine the approach to to 64, (vi) 65 to 69, (vii) 70 to 74 and (viii) over 75 years regulating social workers in England according to the in each of the last three years for which figures are statutory requirements. available. [95480] The Health Professions Council has established a professional liaison group, which includes representatives Mr Simon Burns: The information is shown in the of social workers, employers, education providers and following table:

Mean and median time waited (days)1 for finished admission episodes (FAEs)2 with a main operative procedure3 of open excision of the prostate for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Mean time Median time Age group waited waited waited waited waited waited

15-39 51 34 31 25 24 16 40-49 34 27 35 27 35 31 50-54 39 30 43 33 37 31 55-59 39 30 41 31 38 31 60-64 37 29 38 31 38 31 65-69 38 31 41 31 40 32 70-74 38 30 42 31 41 31 75andover473547333930 1 Time waited (days) Time waited (days) statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are not the same as published Referral to Treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. The mean time waited is calculated by summing the time waited for all appropriate FAEs and dividing by the number of FAEs, where the record contains a valid time waited. The median is the middle value when all records with a valid time waited are placed in ascending order of time waited. 2 Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 3 Main procedure The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. Note: OPCS 4.5 codes used: M34.1—Cystoprostatectomy M61—Open excision of Prostate Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for (iii) coronary artery bypass graft, (iv) cochlea implant Health what the (a) mean and (b) median waiting and (v) cholecystectomy procedures for patients aged time was for (i) hip replacement, (ii) knee replacement, (A) 15 to 39, (B) 40 to 49, (C) 50 to 54, (D) 55 to 59, 717W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 718W

(E) 60 to 64, (F) 65 to 69, (G) 70 to 74 and (H) 75 years Cochlear Implant and over in each of the last three years for which data 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 are available. [95481] Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Age time time time time time time group waited waited waited waited waited waited

Mr Simon Burns: The information is shown in the 60-64 68 47 67 55 61 53 following tables: 65-69 62 72 46 33 58 56 70-74 58 57 75 65 56 48 Mean and median time waited1 (days) for finished admissions episodes2 (FAEs) where a main operative procedure3 as identified has been carried out, by specified 75 and 52 38 59 48 59 55 age groups for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 over Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Cholecystectomy Hip replacement 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Age time time time time time time Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median group waited waited waited waited waited waited Age time time time time time time group waited waited waited waited waited waited 15-39 62 55 66 58 69 62 15-39 89 80 91 85 95 92 40-49 67 58 68 61 73 66 50-54 66 58 70 63 74 66 40-49 88 79 91 85 91 84 55-59 67 58 70 62 74 67 50-54 87 80 87 80 90 84 60-64 67 58 71 63 75 66 55-59 87 78 86 79 88 83 65-69 66 57 72 62 74 67 60-64 85 76 86 78 86 80 70-74 67 57 70 63 76 69 65-69 84 76 86 77 85 80 75 and 67 57 71 62 76 68 70-74 83 73 84 76 84 79 over 1 75 and 82 73 84 75 83 78 Time waited (days) over Time waited (days) statistics from hospital episode statistics (HES) are not the same as published referral to treatment (RTT) time waited statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients between decision to admit and Knee replacement admission to hospital within a given period. Published RTT waiting statistics measure the time waited between referral and start of treatment. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 The mean time waited is calculated by summing the time waited for all Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median appropriate FAEs and dividing by. the number of FAEs, where the record Age time time time time time time contains a valid time waited. The median is the middle value when all records group waited waited waited waited waited waited with a valid time waited are placed in ascending order of time waited. 2 Finished admission episodes 15-39 91 83 96 91 98 93 A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of inpatient care under 40-49 93 85 92 85 96 92 one consultant within, one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the 50-54 91 81 93 82 96 88 number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the 55-59 90 81 95 84 94 88 year. 3 60-64 90 81 93 82 93 87 Main procedure The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most 65-69 89 79 90 80 91 84 resource intensive procedure or intervention performed during the episode. It is 70-74 88 78 89 79 89 82 appropriate to use main procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time 75 and 88 78 88 78 89 82 waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is over obtained by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. Operative procedure codes were revised from 2006-07. 2009-10 data uses OPCS 4.5 codes, 2008-09 and 2007-08 data uses OPCS 4.4 codes, 2006-07 data uses Coronary artery bypass graft OPCS 4.3 codes, data prior to 2006-07 uses OPCS 4.2 codes. All codes that were in OPCS 4.2 remain in later OPCS 4 versions, however the introduction of 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 OPCS 4.3 codes enable the recording of interventions and procedures which Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median were not possible in OPCS 4.2. In particular, OPCS 4.3, 4.4 and 4.5 codes Age time time time time time time include high cost drugs and diagnostic imaging, testing and rehabilitation. Group waited waited waited waited waited waited Some such activity may have been coded under different codes in OPCS 4.2. These changes may explain some apparent variations over time. Care needs to 15-39 52 45 44 43 68 31 be taken in using the newer codes as some providers of data did not start using 40-49 52 42 56 48 44 27 the new codes at the beginning of each data year. More information about OPCS 4 changes is on the Connecting for Health website: 50-54 62 53 51 38 54 41 www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk 55-59 62 59 56 47 57 47 Source: 60-64 62 57 51 44 57 53 Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre 65-69 70 56 56 47 52 46 70-74 68 62 55 50 56 49 Surgery: Medical Equipment 75 and 66 61 60 53 57 50 over Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Cochlear Implant what the cost was of disposable surgical instruments in 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 each category supplied to the NHS in (a) 2010 and (b) Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median 2011. [94502] Age time time time time time time group waited waited waited waited waited waited Mr Simon Burns: The cost of disposable surgical 15-39 55 43 103 35 53 37 instruments supplied to the national health service is 40-49 55 48 66 56 68 59 not held centrally by the Department. However, the 50-54 59 44 54 51 59 54 hon. Member may wish to contact individual NHS 55-59 67 44 53 53 67 66 trusts for this information. 719W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 720W

Tuberculosis Academies: Sixth Form Education

Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for how many cases of (a) tuberculosis and (b) drug- Education pursuant to the answer of 6 February 2012, resistant tuberculosis there were in each primary care Official Report, column 41W, on academies, whether he trust area in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [94559] plans that academy schools without post-16 provision will establish post-16 courses within the academy itself Anne Milton: The information is not available in the to ensure that all Year 11 pupils participate in format requested. education or training post-16. [94686] Information is given by local authority, and as a three year average (2008-10) because the small numbers at Mr Gibb: Raising the participation age to ensure all individual local authority level in any one year could young people participate in education or training post-16 result in deductive disclosure of identity, has been placed does not mean that young people will be required to in the Library. stay at school. Youngpeople will be required to participate Provisional data for 2011 will not be available until in education or training but can choose to do so through March 2012. a number of routes: full-time education, which may be at a school but also at a college or otherwise; an apprenticeship, or full-time work with part-time education EDUCATION alongside. There is no expectation that any schools, including 16-19 Bursary Fund academies, will need to establish post-16 courses unless they wanted to do so. We secured sufficient Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for resources through the Spending Review 2010 to fund a Education what information his Department holds on place in education for all 16 and 17-year-olds and, in the number of (a) applicants and (b) recipients of the fact, it is likely that any significant amount of extra 16 to 19 Bursary Scheme in (i) St Helens South and provision needed to deliver full participation will not be Whiston constituency, (ii) the north west and (iii) in school settings but will be in other routes such as England; and what the level was of such awards. apprenticeships and further education colleges. It is for [95191] local authorities to identify the educational needs of young people in its area, and the needs of employers, Mr Gibb: Information on the numbers of young and to ensure this is reflected in the provision that is people who have benefitted from the 16-19 Bursary made available. Fund since it began in September last year, is not held centrally. Information on payments made in St Helens From September, schools will be placed under a duty South and Whiston will be held by the schools and to secure access to independent and impartial careers colleges concerned. guidance on the full range of 16 to 18 education and training options so that young people will be given clear Academies advice and supported onto the post-16 provision which is most appropriate for them. Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many schools have (a) converted and Children: Protection (b) applied to convert to academy status in (i) Rossendale and Darwen constituency, (ii) Lancashire Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for and (iii) England. [93820] Education when he plans to revise the children in need census to improve local authority data collection on Mr Gibb: As at 1 February 2012: child neglect. [93779] (i) one school in Rossendale and Darwen constituency had applied and converted to academy status; Tim Loughton: In England, national data are collected (ii) 20 schools have applied in Lancashire and 16 have converted; through the children in need census on the number of and children who are assessed by children’s social care services (iii) and 1,861 schools have applied in England, of which 1,243 as being children in need and the reasons why they are have converted. in need, including whether that is for abuse or neglect. Full details of schools that have converted to academy Data are also collected on the number of children who status can be found on the Department for Education are the subject of a child protection plan by category of Academies website at: abuse including a category for neglect. http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ typesofschools/academies/a0069811/schools-submitting- The Department has been working with a range of applications-and-academies-that-have-opened-in-201011 stakeholders and sector leaders to take forward the Government’s response to Professor Munro’s Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendation to have a revised suite of local and Education how many academy orders he has made by national performance information to drive improvements virtue of a school being eligible for intervention in (a) in children’s safeguarding. It has now published the 2011 and (b) 2012. [93826] suite of local children’s safeguarding performance information that local areas will collect, following Mr Gibb: Two academy orders were made by the agreement with the sector. On 23 January the Secretary of State for Education by virtue of a school Department launched a public consultation asking being eligible for intervention in 2011. None have so far for views on the proposed children’s safeguarding national been made in 2012. performance data recommended by Professor Eileen 721W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 722W

Munro. This consultation will run until 16 April 2012 Departmental Procurement and following the consultation we will decide what changes need to be made to the children in need census. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Any changes will take effect from, at the earliest, the Education what proportion of the total value of 2013-14 census. contracts issued or to be issued by his Department in 2011-12 have required successful organisations to put up a capital bond; and if he will make a statement. Children: Social Services [94921]

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To establish whether any of the Education what the reduction in funding from his Department’s contracts issued or to be issued in 2011-12 Department to Hartlepool borough council for required the successful organisation to put up a capital children’s social care was in (a) 2010-11 and (b) bond would incur disproportionate costs. 2011-12; and what the average reduction in local authorities funding in England was for children’s social Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for care in the same period. [95402] Education which contracts his Department has tendered or will tender in 2011-12 which require Tim Loughton: The planned spend on children’s social successful organisations to have a capital bond of more care for Hartlepool local authority in 2010-11 was than £5 million; which contracts have not required such £13,783,000. In 2011-12 it was £13,369,000, a decrease a bond; and if he will make a statement. [94941] of £413,000 (3%). The average local authority decrease over the same period was 1%. Tim Loughton: To establish whether the Department has tendered, or will tender in 2011-12, contracts which These data come from the Section 251 budget return, will require successful organisations to have a capital in which LA’s inform DfE of planned expenditure. The bond of more than £5 million, and which contracts S251 budget collection on planned spend includes a have not required such a bond, would incur disproportionate wide range of expenditure on children and young people’s costs. services and social care. To calculate a figure for “children’s social care”as requested, the following high level expenditure categories have been used: Dominic Cummings a. Total children looked after b. Total children and young people’s safety John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) on how many occasions Dominic c. Total family support services Cummings visited his Department between 12 May d. Total other children’s and families services 2010 and 27 January 2011; [81302] e. Total children’s services strategy. (2) on how many occasions Dominic Cummings visited him at his Department between 12 May 2010 and 27 January 2011. [81303] Departmental Food Tim Loughton [holding answer 15 November 2012]: Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department for Education is not able to provide a Education what proportion of food purchased by his definite figure for the number of occasions Mr Cummings Department was produced in the UK in each of the visited the Department between 12 May 2010 and last five years. [93718] 27 January 2011. However, the Department can confirm that Mr Cummings was invited to 13 meetings between Tim Loughton: In the last two years the proportion of 12 May 2010 and 27 January 2011 which were held by food purchased by the Department that was produced the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. in the UK was as follows: Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove).

Financial year Percentage UK produce Education: Pilot Schemes

2010/11 54.9 2009/10 54.7 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the outcomes were of the pilot schemes conducted by local authorities on raising the Previously, between 2007 and 2010, DEFRA published education participation age. [94702] three annual reports on food procurement which covered the period April 2006 to March 2009. The final one of Tim Loughton: Independent evaluations have been this series is available at: carried out on the first two phases of the raising the http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/policy/publicsectorfood/ participation age (RPA) delivery projects. These reports documents/100226-food-proc-initiative.pdf present the learning from the project areas and These reports include an estimate of the proportion highlight good practice and guiding principles for continued of domestically produced food procured for Government activities designed to achieve full participation. Both Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons reports are available on the Department for Education’s under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and website: the National Offender Management Service. A summary http://education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ of all three years is on page 4 of this document. These youngpeople/participation/rpa/a0075564/raising-the- reports were laid in the House Libraries. participation-age-rpa-locally-led-delivery-projectstrials 723W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 724W

From the phase two evaluation, a number of tools Primary Education: Standards were developed which bring together the learning and emerging good practice from the work of the project Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for areas in phases one and two. These tools set out more Education what steps his Department plans to take to detailed examples of what the project areas have done, collaborate with local authorities with large numbers of to help inform other areas as they consider their approach under-performing primary schools, as proposed in his to RPA. June 2011 speech to the National College for School An evaluation of the third phase of the RPA delivery Leadership. [92965] projects is currently underway and the final evaluation report will be available in June 2012. Mr Gibb [holding answer 6 February 2012]: We are A fourth phase of the delivery projects has been determined to raise standards in underperforming schools. announced and will run from April 2012 to March This is why in his speech to the National College of 2013. School Leadership on 16 June, the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend, the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), announced that as an Females: Violence urgent priority, we will start work on turning around 200 of the most consistently underperforming primary Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for schools by finding academy sponsors for them. We are Education what Inter-Ministerial Group meetings on currently working with all local authorities to discuss the cross-government Violence Against Women and their worst performing schools with a particular focus Girls strategy Ministers in his Department (a) have on 10 local authorities with the highest number of and (b) have not attended; what steps he is taking to schools below the floor across the regions. ensure coordinated work with other Government departments on the Violence Against Women and Girls Pupil Exclusions strategy; and if he will make a statement. [95547] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: I attended the inter-ministerial group Education for how many permanently excluded pupils meeting on the cross-government Violence Against Women and students (a) of and (b) above compulsory school and Girls strategy held in July 2010. I was represented age his Department has (i) ongoing investigations and by senior officials at IMG meetings in October and (ii) completed investigations into the circumstances for December 2010. I attended the IMG meetings in February, each of the last five years. [94801] October and December 2011. I did not attend the June 2011 meeting. The Department for Education is working Mr Gibb: The Department for Education typically closely with other Government Departments in respect has very low numbers of ongoing investigations into the of the actions to which it is committed in the cross circumstances of a permanent exclusion. The total number Government VAWG strategy. of current investigations is less than three and it is the Department’s policy not to release more details in these Free Schools circumstances as they could lead to the identification of an individual. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Given the low number of investigations, the Department Education when he expects the first free school does not keep a record of the cases of permanent specialising in mathematics for 16 to 18 year-olds to exclusion it has considered. To retrieve this information open; how many 16 to 18 year-olds he expects to enrol from archived correspondence would involve a in free schools specialising in mathematics by 2015; disproportionate cost. However, the current number of with which universities he has discussed these free ongoing cases is typical of the levels that the Department schools; and what guidance he plans to provide to usually investigates. people who wish to apply to open such a school. Pupil Exclusions: Yorkshire and the Humber [94701] Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: We are developing proposals for how specialist Education what proportion of pupils in (a) maths schools for 16 to 18-year-olds might operate and Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (b) East will announce further details in due course. We are keen Yorkshire and (c) Yorkshire and Humber were to engage with all those who have an interest to explore excluded from school in each of the last 10 years for possible models and innovative ideas. which figures are available. [95219]

Local Authorities: Children Mr Gibb: Information on the number of permanent exclusions and the number of pupil enrolments with Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for one or more fixed period exclusions is shown in the Education how many local authorities in England do tables. not have a Director of Children’s Services. [94742] Data on fixed period exclusions was collected for the first time in 2003/04 via the Termly Exclusions Survey, Tim Loughton: Section 18 of the Children’s Act 2004 and both fixed period and permanent exclusions were requires every upper tier local authority to appoint a collected via the School Census for the first time in Director of Children’s Services. The Government’s 2005/06. Data has been provided for 2005/06 to 2009/10. understanding is that all local authorities are compliant To provide data for further years would incur with this duty. disproportionate cost. 725W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 726W

Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1, 2, 3. Number of permanent exclusions4 2005/06 to 2009/10. Yorkshire and the Humber, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority and Haltemprice and Howden parliamentary constituency Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 Number of Number of Number of permanent Percentage of permanent Percentage of permanent Percentage of exclusions school population5 exclusions school population5 exclusions school population5

Yorkshire and the 770 0.10 670 0.09 530 0.07 Humber East Riding of 30 0.06 20 0.05 30 0.06 Yorkshire local authority Haltemprice and 10 0.06 10 0.08 10 0.03 Howden parliamentary constituency

Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools 2008/09 2009/10 Number of permanent Percentage of school Number of permanent Percentage of school exclusions population5 exclusions population5

Yorkshire and the Humber 360 0.05 330 0.04 East Riding of Yorkshire local 10 0.03 20 0.04 authority Haltemprice and Howden 6— 6— 10 0.05 parliamentary constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Figures for the region and local authority were confirmed by local authorities as part of a data checking exercise, figures for the constituency are as provided by schools. 5 The number of permanent exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) at January each year. 6 Less than 5, or a percentage based on less than 5. Note: Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census

Maintained primary, state-funded secondary and special schools1, 2, 3. Number of pupil enrolments with one or more fixed period exclusions4 2005/06 to 2009/10. Yorkshire and the Humber, East Riding of Yorkshire local authority and Haltemprice and Howden parliamentary constituency Maintained secondary schools 2005/065 Number of pupil enrolments with one or more fixed period exclusions Percentage of school population6

Yorkshire and the Humber 21,740 6.29 East Riding of Yorkshire local authority 1,390 5.91 Haltemprice and Howden parliamentary constituency 320 3.76

Maintained primary, stale-funded secondary and special schools 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 Number of Number of Number of pupil pupil pupil enrolments enrolments enrolments with one or with one or with one or Number of pupil more fixed Percentage of more fixed Percentage of more fixed Percentage of enrolments with Percentage of period school period school period school one or more fixed school exclusions population6 exclusions population6 exclusions population6 period exclusions population6

Yorkshire and 25,560 3.24 21,410 2.74 19,930 2.57 19,360 2.50 the Humber East Riding of 1,720 3.53 1,560 3.23 1,490 3.14 1,250 2.64 Yorkshire local authority Haltemprice and 400 2.55 370 2.41 390 2.61 320 2.14 Howden parliamentary constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies (including all-through academies). 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. 4 Pupils may be counted more than once if they moved schools during the year, or are registered at more than one school. 5 For the 2005/06 school year, only information on fixed period exclusions from secondary schools was available. 6 The number of pupil enrolments with one or more fixed period exclusions expressed as a percentage of the number (headcount) of pupils (excluding dually registered pupils) at January each year. Note: Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census 727W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 728W

Pupils: Absenteeism Table 1 shows the range of activities or types of educational institution that young people attended at Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for the end of 2010. Education what the (a) overall absence rate, (b) 1 Academic age is the age of the young person on the preceding 31 unauthorised absence rate and (c) number of August, it effectively allocates young people into school years, so persistent absentees was at each state-funded secondary young people in year 11 will be academic age 15, actual age 15-16. school in each London borough in each academic year Table 1: Academic age 16-year-olds in education and work-based learning1 by from 2005-06 to the latest figures available. [94133] route, end 2010 (provisional) Percentage Number

Mr Gibb: Information on the overall and unauthorised Maintained schools 36.0 226,700 absence rates and number of persistent absentees in Independent schools 6.5 40,900 each state-funded secondary school in each London Sixth-form colleges 12.0 75,200 borough for 2005/06, 2007/08 and 2009/10 has been General FE, tertiary and 37.8 238,100 placed in the House Libraries. To provide information specialist colleges for further years would incur disproportionate cost. Higher education 0.4 2,400 institutions Apprenticeships and Entry 3.4 21,200 School Leaving to Employment (E2E)2 Total3 96.1 604,600 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Source: DFE statistical first release “Participation in Education, Training and Employment by 16-18 Year Olds in England” Education what proportion of school sixth formers left 2 Discounted to allow for young people also participating in full or part-time school before completing their post-16 studies in each education. of the last five years for which figures are available. 3 Figures may not add up due to rounding. [94533] Schools: Armed Forces Mr Gibb: The figures requested cannot be readily calculated from the school census data the Department Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for collects from school sixth forms. Education how many children have received the Service Pupil Premium since May 2010. [94790] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many additional 17-year-olds will need Sarah Teather: The service child premium is paid to to participate in education or training by 1 September schools on the basis of the number of full-time equivalent 2013 to meet the requirements of the Education and pupils in state-funded primary, state-funded secondary Skills Act 2008; and what proportion of such people he and maintained special schools recorded on roll as expects to be in (a) a school sixth form, (b) a service children on the January 2011 School Census in sixth-form college, (c) a further education college and year groups R-11. It was introduced in April 2011 and (d) employment with training. [94700] 45,070 pupils are eligible in 2011-12. Full details are available on the Department’s website at: Tim Loughton: The Education and Skills Act 2008 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ requires that from September 2013 young people must financialmanagement/schoolsrevenuefunding/ remain in qualifying education and training until they settlement2012pupilpremium/a0075963/pupil-premium- 2011-12 reach academic age1 17. From 2015, the requirement to remain in education and training will be extended further, Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for th birthday. until the young person reaches their 18 Education how many children were registered as a How many more young people will need to remain in service child in each academic year since May 2009. education and training can be estimated from the number [94791] of young people of academic age 16 who were in education and work-based learning at the end of 2010, Sarah Teather: Children are registered as being service the latest year for which we have information. This is children on the January School Census. In January 2010 regarded as the best proxy, from the National Statistics there were 38,170 pupils registered at nursery, state-funded currently available, for provision that will satisfy the primary, state-funded secondary and special schools as RPA requirements. service children and in January 2011 there were 48,070. At the end of 2010, the proportion of young This is the total number of pupils registered and will people of academic age 16 in education and work-based include year groups not eligible for the service child learning was 96.1%, or 604,600. Based on figures for premium. 2010, this means an additional 3.9% or 24,600 young people in England would have had to remain in Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for learning. In 2013, the number of additional learners Education how many children have had the Service required is likely to be lower than the estimate based on Pupil Premium stopped since May 2010; and for what 2010 data. The population of academic age 16-year-olds reasons. [94792] is projected to be around 616,500 in the year 2013/14. As such, just under 12,000 additional learning places Sarah Teather: The service child premium is paid to would be required under RPA in 2013 over and above schools on the basis of the number of pupils in the the numbers in education and work-based learning in school registered as service children on the January 2010. The Department for Education is committed to School Census. As long as a child is registered as a funding places in education and training for all 16 to service child the premium will continue to be paid. For 17-year-olds. the first year of the premium the January 2011 Census 729W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 730W provided the number eligible for the premium from school buildings. It is the responsibility of Lancashire April 2011 to March 2012. As this is the first year of the county council to prioritise the available funds across premium no child has ceased to be eligible since it was the schools in its estate. introduced. The Department will not hold any information On 13 December 2011, Official Report, columns 92-5WS, for the reasons a child ceases to be eligible. The service we announced capital allocations to schools and local child premium for 2012-13 will be based on the January authorities for 2012-13, including £44 million for Lancashire 2012 School Census, when available. county council. The council and its schools were allocated £69.6 million in 2011-12. Schools: Rossendale Science: GCSE

Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has to improve the quality of Education what proportion of pupils were entered for school buildings in Rossendale and Darwen three separate sciences at GCSE in each local authority [95054] constituency. [93736] in 2010-11. Mr Gibb: The percentage of pupils that were entered Mr Gibb: The Department for Education provides for GCSEs in the three separate sciences in 2010/11 for capital funding to all local authorities for investment in each local authority is given as follows.

Percentage of Pupils1,2,3,4 entered for GCSEs in separate sciences by local authority: year 2010/11 (revised), coverage: England Three separate sciences Percentage entered for GCSEs in: Number of pupils at Region local authority LA region number end Key Stage 4 Physics Chemistry Biological Sciences

North East El2000001 29,305 18 18 18 Darlington E06000005 1,129 19 19 19 Durham E06000047 5,481 12 12 13 Gateshead E08000020 2,219 20 20 20 Hartlepool E06000001 1,285 15 . 15 15 Middlesbrough E06000002 1,600 16 17 17 Newcastle upon Tyne E08000021 2,553 17 17 17 North Tyneside E08000022 2,165 16 16 16 Northumberland E06000048 3,650 29 29 29 Redcar and Cleveland E06000003 1,858 24 24 24 South Tyneside E08000023 1,797 16 16 16 Stockton-on-Tees E06000004 2,262 17 16 16 Sunderland E08000024 3,306 16 16 16

North West El2000002 79,661 19 19 19 Blackburn with Darwen E06000008 1,815 15 16 16 Blackpool E06000009 1,557 12 12 12 Bolton E08000001 3,418 19 19 19 Bury E08000002 2,199 19 19 19 Cheshire East E06000049 3,839 22 22 22 Cheshire West and Chester E06000050 3,874 20 20 20 Cumbria El0000006 5,716 24 24 24 Halton E06000006 1,462 15 15 15 Knowsley E08000011 1,578 8 8 8 Lancashire El0000017 12,878 23 23 23 Liverpool E08000012 5,136 15 15 15 Manchester E08000003 4,432 15 15 16 Oldham E08000004 2,967 16 15 17 Rochdale E08000005 2,449 10 9 12 Salford E08000005 2,198 13 13 13 Sefton E08000014 3,383 15 15 15 St Helens E08000013 1,977 15 15 15 Stockport E08000007 3,006 23 23 23 Tameside E08000008 2,845 14 14 14 Trafford E08000009 2,829 21 21 21 Warrington E06000007 2,475 25 25 25 Wigan E08000010 3,772 20 20 20 Wirral E08000015 3,856 29 29 29

Yorkshire and the Humber E12000003 59,052 18 19 19 Barnsley E08000016 2,606 14 14 14 Bradford E08000032 5,679 13 13 13 731W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 732W

Percentage of Pupils1,2,3,4 entered for GCSEs in separate sciences by local authority: year 2010/11 (revised), coverage: England Three separate sciences Percentage entered for GCSEs in: Number of pupils at Region local authority LA region number end Key Stage 4 Physics Chemistry Biological Sciences

Calderdale E08000033 2,590 19 19 19 Doncaster E08000017 3,536 22 22 22 East Riding of Yorkshire E06000011 3,952 17 17 17 Kingston upon Hull, City of E06000010 2,613 6 6 6 Kirklees E08000034 4,590 23 23 23 Leeds E08000035 8,001 16 15 17 North East Lincolnshire E06000012 1,886 10 12 11 North Lincolnshire E06000013 2,042 17 17 17 North Yorkshire E10000023 6,792 28 28 28 Rotherham E08000018 3,491 18 18 18 Sheffield E08000019 5,514 22 22 22 Wakefield E08000036 3,985 16 16 16 York E06000014 1,775 22 22 22

East Midlands El2000004 50,587 19 19 19 Derby E06000015 2,837 20 20 20 Derbyshire El0000007 8,760 19 19 19 Leicester E06000016 3,393 15 15 15 Leicestershire E10000018 7,460 17 17 17 Lincolnshire E10000019 8,427 21 21 22 Northamptonshire E10000021 7,893 22 22 23 Nottingham E06000018 2,573 16 16 16 Nottinghamshire E10000024 8,800 17 17 17 Rutland E06000017 454 27 27 27

West Midlands E12000005 63,387 18 18 18 Birmingham E08000025 12,159 21 21 21 Coventry E08000026 3,471 10 10 11 Dudley E08000027 3,805 15 15 16 Herefordshire E06000019 1,877 14 14 14 Sandwell E08000028 3,659 12 13 13 Shropshire E06000051 3,207 17 17 17 Solihull E08000029 3,027 20 20 20 Staffordshire E10000028 9,408 18 18 18 Stoke-on-Trent E05000021 2,618 11 11 11 Telford and Wrekin E06000020 2,038 20 21 21 Walsall E08000030 3,474 18 18 18 Warwickshire El0000031 6,022 26 26 26 Wolverhampton E08000031 2,558 15 16 15 Worcestershire El0000034 6,064 19 19 19

East of England El2000006 64,585 22 22 23 Bedford E06000055 1,630 19 19 19 Cambridgeshire El0000003 5,967 28 28 28 Central Bedfordshire E06000056 2,857 26 26 26 Essex El0000012 15,887 20 20 20 Hertfordshire E10000015 12,874 27 27 28 Luton E06000032 2,408 15 15 15 Norfolk El0000020 8,887 20 20 20 Peterborough E06000031 2,276 20 20 20 Southend-on-Sea E06000033 2,076 27 27 27 Suffolk E10000029 7,741 21 22 22 Thurrock E06000034 1,782 19 19 19

London El2000007 74,236 20 20 20 Inner London E13000001 23,323 18 19 19 Camden E09000007 1,491 13 13 13 City of London E09000001 n/a n/a n/a n/a Hackney E09000012 1,485 20 20 21 733W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 734W

Percentage of Pupils1,2,3,4 entered for GCSEs in separate sciences by local authority: year 2010/11 (revised), coverage: England Three separate sciences Percentage entered for GCSEs in: Number of pupils at Region local authority LA region number end Key Stage 4 Physics Chemistry Biological Sciences

Hammersmith and Fulham E09000013 1,071 32 32 32 Haringey E09000014 2,107 20 20 20 Islington E09000019 1,351 11 11 11 Kensington and Chelsea E09000020 581 14 14 14 Lambeth E09000022 1,611 22 22 22 Lewisham E09000023 2,202 23 23 23 Newham E09000025 3,311 10 10 10 Southwark E09000028 2,337 17 19 19 Tower Hamlets E09000030 2,553 21 21 22 Wandsworth E09000032 1,846 25 25 25 Westminster E09000033 1,377 18 18 18

Outer London E13000002 50,913 20 20 20 Barking and Dagenham E09000002 2,060 13 12 15 Barnet E09000003 3,387 15 15 15 Bexley E09000004 3,260 23 23 23 Brent E09000005 2,840 23 23 23 Bromley E09000006 3,438 21 21 21 Croydon E09000008 3,719 17 17 17 Ealing E09000009 2,811 20 20 20 Enfield E09000010 3,563 18 18 18 Greenwich E09000011 2,275 17 17 17 Harrow E09000015 2,141 21 21 21 Havering E09000016 3,080 15 15 15 Hillingdon E09000017 2,982 17 17 17 Hounslow E09000018 2,586 15 16 17 Kingston upon Thames E09000021 1,524 33 33 33 Merton E09000024 1,525 22 22 24 Redbridge E09000026 3,266 25 26 26 Richmond upon Thames E09000027 1,374 20 20 20 Sutton E09000029 2,636 44 44 44 Waltham Forest E09000031 2,456 11 11 11

South East E12000008 88,521 23 23 23 Bracknell Forest E06000036 1,093 26 26 26 Brighton and Hove E06000043 2,324 14 14 14 Buckinghamshire El0000002 5,525 41 41 41 East Sussex El0000011 5,201 20 20 20 Hampshire El0000014 13,860 21 21 21 Isle of Wight E06000046 1,485 19 19 19 Kent El0000016 16,173 22 23 23 Medway E06000035 3,231 22 21 22 Milton Keynes E06000042 2,707 18 18 18 Oxfordshire El0000025 6,179 24 24 24 Portsmouth E06000044 1,949 14 14 14 Reading E06000038 987 29 29 30 Slough E06000039 1,570 23 23 23 Southampton E06000045 2,044 23 23 23 Surrey El0000030 10,725 22 22 22 West Berkshire E06000037 1,983 20 20 20 West Sussex El0000032 8,266 21 21 21 Windsor and Maidenhead E06000040 1,516 36 36 36 Wokingham E06000041 1,703 27 27 27

South West E12000009 55,540 22 22 22 Bath and North East Somerset E06000022 2,134 25 25 25 Bournemouth E06000028 1,703 25 25 25 Bristol, City of E06000023 3,030 17 17 17 Cornwall E06000052 5,750 20 20 20 Devon E10000008 7,503 21 21 21 735W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 736W

Percentage of Pupils1,2,3,4 entered for GCSEs in separate sciences by local authority: year 2010/11 (revised), coverage: England Three separate sciences Percentage entered for GCSEs in: Number of pupils at Region local authority LA region number end Key Stage 4 Physics Chemistry Biological Sciences

Dorset El0000009 4,220 24 24 24 Gloucestershire E10000013 6,624 23 23 24 Isles of Scilly E06000053 19 26 26 26 North Somerset E06000024 2,303 21 21 21 Plymouth E06000026 2,885 14 14 14 Poole E06000029 1,601 30 30 30 Somerset El0000027 5,480 21 21 21 South Gloucestershire E06000025 3,254 20 20 20 Swindon E06000030 2,196 29 29 29 Torbay E06000027 1,490 17 17 17 Wiltshire E06000054 5,148 24 24 24

England (maintained sector) E92000001 564,874 20 20 20 n/a = Not applicable. 1 Figures are based on pupils at the end of Key Stage 4. 2 For each subject, only one attempt is counted—that which achieved the highest grade. This is including attempts by these pupils in previous academic years. 3 Local authority, region and the England (maintained sector) figures in this table do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 4 Figures cover achievements in maintained schools including academies but exclude hospital schools, Pupil Referral Units (PRUs) and Alternative Provision (AP). Source: ’GCSE and Equivalent Results in England, 2010/11 (Revised)’ available at the following link: http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001056/index.shtml

Sixth Form Education: Assessments Special Educational Needs

Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proportion of post-16 students studied Education how many young people with (a) autism (a) A levels and (b) the international baccalaureate in and (b) a disability will enter the education system (i) Dartford constituency, (ii) Kent and (iii) the UK in when the participation age is raised in (i) 2013 and (ii) each of the last five years. [95077] 2015; and what steps he is taking to ensure such demand for places can be met. [94094] Mr Gibb: The information requested for Dartford, Sarah Teather: All 16 and 17-year-olds who are able Kent and England can be found in the following table to do so will be expected to participate in education or for the academic year 2007/08 to 2010/11. Data for training when the participation age is raised to 17 in 2006/07 can be provided only at disproportionate cost. 2013 and 18 in 2015. We do not know how many of Number of students1 aged 16-182 and percentage entering A levels3 and the those young people will have a disability or autism. international baccalaureate in Dartford4, Kent5 and England6, 2007/08 to 2010/ 11, maintained schools (including CTCs and academies) and further education However, work to assess the financial implications of sector colleges raising the participation age took into account that Percentage more young people from disadvantaged backgrounds Number of Percentage entering the will be accessing education, including more who will students1 entering A international aged 16-182 levels3 baccalaureate need extra support to participate. The Green Paper “Support and Aspiration: A New 2007/08 Dartford 1,138 52.6 12.3 Approach to Disability”, sets out our aspirations to Kent 8,412 79.0 2.4 help young people with special education needs or England 295,124 76.3 0.4 disabilities make the most of their future, and to give 2008/09 Dartford 1,357 41.8 16.6 them the best chance of a fulfilling adulthood with Kent 9,345 70.2 4.8 employment, good health and independence. Our proposals England 315,361 71.6 0.6 include access to better quality vocational and work-related 2009/10 Dartford 1,535 40.1 13.4 learning options to enable young people to progress in Kent 10,091 65.7 4.8 their learning post-16 and the development of supported internships. We are considering responses to the consultation England 342,018 67.8 0.6 on these proposals and will be publishing a report with 2010/11 Dartford 1,580 34.1 14.1 our progress and next steps shortly. Kent 9,963 64.0 4.3 England 336,139 67.0 0.7 Young People: Unemployment 1 16 to 18-year-old students entered for level 3 qualifications at least equivalent in size to one GCE/applied GCE A level. 2 Age at the start of the academic year i.e. 31 August 2010 for 2010/11. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 Those students entered for GCE/applied GCE A levels and double awards. 4 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. Education with reference to his statistical release dated 5 Local authority figures are based on the local authority area of the school. 29 November 2011, what proportion of people aged 6 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. (a) 16, (b) 17 and (c) 18 years old who were not in Source: 2007/08 to 2009/10: National Pupil Database (final data). education, employment or training were not qualified 2010/11: Key stage 5 attainment data (revised data). to at least Level one in each of the last five years. [95416] 737W Written Answers20 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 738W

Tim Loughton: Quarterly data from the Labour Force provisions for young people per capita in 2010-11; and Survey on the number and proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds what proportion of the equivalent figures for 2008-09 NEET in England are published in the statistical release this represents. [94627] (SR) ‘NEET Quarterly Brief’. The most recent version was released on 24 November 2011. Tim Loughton [holding answer 9 February 2012]: The The Labour Force Survey does not distinguish between information requested on individual local authorities’ those at Level 1 or below Level 1, but does indicate spend on youth provision in 2010-11 and comparison whether respondents are above or below Level 2, based with spending in 2008-09 requested has been placed in on the qualifications they report. Sample sizes in the the House Libraries. Labour Force Survey are not sufficient to produce The categories used to record spending on services robust estimates of qualification levels for young people for young people between 2008-09 and 2010-11 have NEET by single age group, so estimates for 16 to changed. This means that it is not possible to make 18-year-olds combined are provided in this response. reliable year on year comparisons for spending in specific The following table shows the proportion of 16 to areas. The new method of collection meant that some 18-year-olds who were below Level 2 in Quarter 3 of LAs did not fill in certain fields properly, or at all, and each year since 2007, for both the NEET group and so some figures should be used with extreme caution as those in education, employment or training (EET). it is unlikely they reflect the actual situation and spend within the LA. For example, it is thought to be highly Proportion of young people below Level 21 unlikely that an LA would have zero spend on Youth Percentage Work across a financial year. Data on spending on Q3 2007 Q3 2008 Q3 2009 Q3 2010 Q3 2011 student support have not been included in the figures 16 to 18-year- 28 28 25 23 21 on provisions for young people but have been provided olds in EET separately in the table. 16 to 18-year- 56 57 53 50 44 olds NEET Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for All 16 to 32 32 28 27 24 Education what assessment he has made of the 18-year-olds capacity of the Connexions Caseload Information 1 Confidence intervals around these estimates at the 95% level are around +/- 5 percentage points for the NEET group, and +1-2 percentage points for the System to monitor participation of 16 to 18 year-olds EET group. These confidence intervals are based on sampling error alone. The in education or training. [94703] results will also be subject to respondent error, because the attainment levels in the LFS are assigned based on self-reported qualifications. Tim Loughton: The Client Caseload Information System Young People: Voluntary Work (CCIS) has been maintained by local authorities since 2003. It is an important tool that they use to gather and record information about the participation of young Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for people in their area in education or training. This Education how many young people took part in the enables local authorities to fulfil their statutory duty to National Citizen Service pilot in summer 2011; and support young people to engage in learning. what the cost to the public purse was of the Each local authority is able to develop their own programme. [95125] CCIS system to best meet the needs of young people in their area. These local CCIS databases provide aggregate Tim Loughton: This information is being finalised as data automatically to the National CCIS system, which part of the evaluation of the 2011 pilots. Early indications can be used by local authorities to compare their position are that at least 8,300 young people participated in with neighbouring areas, improving joint working and NCS. The allocation of Government funding towards performance on young people’s participation. the 2011 pilots was £14,900,000. Monitoring and supporting young people’s participation The interim NCS evaluation report will be published in education and training will become increasingly in March. important as we raise the participation age to 17 in 2013 Youth Services: Expenditure and 18 in 2015. As we have made clear in statutory guidance, local authorities will continue to use their CCIS databases to accurately record young people’s Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for participation so that they can support those young Education how much each local authority reported in people who are not participating. Local authorities its Section 251 financial returns as outturn expenditure fund their work to support young people’s participation on (a) youth work, (b) Connexions and (c) all through the Early Intervention Grant. 739W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 740W

250W, on animal welfare: circuses, when she plans to Written Answers to assess the relevance of the Austrian Constitutional Court decision; and when she expects to make an Questions announcement on legislative proposals on the use of wild animals in circuses. [93081] Tuesday 21 February 2012 Mr Paice: We are continuing to assess the relevance of the Austrian Constitutional Court decision. We will be making an announcement on our legislative proposals ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE shortly. Energy: Housing National Parks Authorities: Sustainable Development

Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much expenditure Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans under the (a) Carbon Emissions Reduction Target and to launch a consultation on whether existing legislation (b) Community Energy Saving Programme has been for National Parks Authorities should reflect better incurred in respect of properties in (i) London and (ii) their role in promoting sustainable development. the UK. [95626] [95132] Gregory Barker: Best estimates of energy companies Richard Benyon: We have chosen to delay the consultation total costs in meeting their GB-wide Carbon Emissions until after the National Planning Policy Framework Reduction Target (CERT) and Community Energy Saving (NPPF) is published. It is important to give our stakeholders Programme (CESP) obligations were detailed in the an opportunity to consider the role of sustainable respective impact assessments at the outset of the schemes. development in the NPPF before responding to the Regionally disaggregated cost estimates have not been consultation on National Park Authorities. made. However, in terms of delivery activity, latest figures published by the Energy Saving Trust show that Rights of Way: Ferndown around 2.6 million homes had received insulation measures by March 2011, including almost 132,000 properties in Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for London. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information her Department holds on the public rights At present, the Government do not have powers to of way of Uddens (Cannonhill) Plantation at Uddens require the obligated energy companies to disclose their Drive, Ferndown; and whether her Department has CERT and CESP compliance costs. However, we are any plans to restrict them. [95167] taking steps to ensure information is available about the cost of delivery under the forthcoming energy company Richard Benyon: The management of public rights of obligation, which is due to replace the existing schemes way is the responsibility of the local highway authority. at the end of 2012. We are aware that there is a public bridleway running Solar Power along the south western edge of the woodland and that the area is also dedicated for access on foot under the Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for provisions in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Planning legislation provides for protection of public Department has made of the proportion of the average rights in the event that an application for planning reduction in solar PV installation costs since 2009 permission is made on land with a public right of way. which is accounted for by the substitution of UK-manufactured PV panels with imported panels. [95623] TRANSPORT Gregory Barker: The Department has not sought to Aviation: Olympic Games 2012 make any such estimate. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what work her Department has done with Energy and Climate Change with reference to his National Air Transport Services on identifying (a) Department’s document entitled Solar PV cost update landing slots and (b) flight paths for additional flights January 2012, what proportion of the firms consulted to and from UK airports during the London 2012 mainly installed (a) imported and (b) Olympics. [94685] UK-manufactured solar panels. [95811] Mrs Villiers [holding answer 20 February 2012]: The Gregory Barker: The Department does not hold this Department has worked with Airport Coordination information. Ltd, NATS, the CAA and the relevant airport operators to determine the available capacity at 40 airports and airfields across southern England during the Olympics ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS period. Animal Welfare: Circuses These airports will be “slot co-ordinated” during the Games period—that is, all arrivals and departures for Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for aircraft wishing to use controlled airspace must be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the made in accordance with a pre-booked take-off or answer of 25 January 2012, Official Report, column landing slot. Slots will be allocated through Airport 741W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 742W

Coordination Ltd, the independent slot co-ordinator. allocated £560 million to local authorities through the These arrangements have been introduced in order to Local Sustainable Transport Fund in order to support help manage the available airport and airspace capacity measures that deliver economic growth and cut carbon, efficiently in view of the expected additional demand and 38 of the 39 projects which were awarded funding associated with the Olympics, and in particular to ensure contained a cycling element. that normal scheduled services are not disrupted by In addition, on 7 February 2012 I announced £15 million airspace congestion. for cycling projects that will promote economic growth In addition, NATS have designed some temporary and cut carbon. This will include traffic calmed and changes and additions to controlled airspace which are traffic free routes linking local communities with aimed at increasing capacity, resilience and flow separation employment centres, schools and other facilities, and during the Games period. improving cycle-rail integration at stations. Local highway authorities already have control of Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for local speed limits, and should take full account of local Transport what estimate her Department has made of communities’ views in setting these limits. A key theme potential changes to the number of (a) flights and (b) in the Government’s Strategic Framework for Road passengers flying to and from the UK during the Safety published in May 2011 is the empowerment of London 2012 Olympics. [94693] local communities, including enabling the public to compare road safety performance in their local area Mrs Villiers [holding answer 20 February 2012]: Studies with other similar areas. This will help communities to conducted for the Department for Transport have estimated challenge local service providers on issues such as speed that there could be a net increase of around 240,000 limits. Decisions on speed limits should be based upon passengers flying to and from the UK during the period comprehensive analysis of all the costs and benefits. between 17 July and 16 August 2012. The majority are expected to fly on existing scheduled air services, but the same studies estimated that the number of additional Cycling: Training flights associated with the Olympic Games during this period to and from the UK (ie in each direction) could Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for be as follows: Transport what plans her Department has to increase the number of students taking cycling proficiency Number courses in schools. [95212]

Commercial (charter) 350 Norman Baker [holding answer 20 February 2012]: Positioning flights 65 Bikeability is ‘cycling proficiency’ for the 21st century Business aviation 11,500 ″ ″ and gives people the skills and confidence to cycle safely State flights 119 in modern road conditions. 1 Approximately The Department currently provides grant funding of Crossrail Line: Kent up to £11 million per financial year from the Local Sustainable Transport Fund. This funding level will Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for continue until at least March 2015. Transport what assessment she has made of the This funding is available to local highway authorities potential to extend Crossrail into north Kent. [95076] and School Games Organiser Host Schools who bid for a contribution of up to £40 per training place. This Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport is committed provides for up to 275,000 school children to take part to delivering the agreed Crossrail scheme which will run in on-road cycle training every year. as far as Abbey Wood. The route from Abbey Wood to Previously grants were for level 2 training only, aimed Gravesend and Ebbsfleet is safeguarded under the terms at year 6 school children. From 2012-13 grant funding of the Safeguarding Direction of October 2009. Any is available to train school children between school extension to the route would require a strong business years 5-9 on either level 1 and 2 combined, level 2 or case. level 3 courses. This will allow for a greater number of Rail passengers in north Kent will be able to access children to be eligible for training, as well as providing Crossrail services via Abbey Wood, from where fast them with access to the level of training most appropriate connections into the City, the West End and beyond will for their needs. be available, improving access to jobs, business and leisure facilities. Directly Operated Railways: Manpower Cycling: Rural Areas Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many people were employed by (a) Transport what steps her Department is taking to Directly Operated Railways, (b) High Speed Two improve the safety of cyclists in rural areas. [95213] Limited and (c) Northern Lighthouse Board in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [95217] Norman Baker [holding answer 20 February 2012]: The Department for Transport provides Integrated Norman Baker [holding answer 20 February 2012]: Transport Block funding to local transport authorities The number of people employed by (a) Directly Operated who have discretion to spend their allocations in line Railways, (b) High Speed Two Ltd and (c) Northern with their own priorities. As well as this, we have Lighthouse Board in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011 -12 are: 743W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 744W

Mike Penning: The following tables list how many Body FTE March 2011 FTE January 2012 claims made relating to the construction of the M42 Directly Operated 3.9 3.4 under the statutory compensation schemes were settled Railways in each of the last 10 years. High Speed Two 11.5 34.2 Ltd The number of claims settled for property and land acquired (includes blight, Northern 194.1 185 compulsory purchase, by agreement, and discretionary purchase) Lighthouse Board 2011 1 2010 1 High Speed 2 Railway Line 2009 1 2008 0 Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 0 Transport whether there will be Barnett consequentials 2006 1 arising from Government funding for High Speed 2. 2005 0 [94972] 2004 2 2003 33 Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply on 2002 1 behalf the Treasury. It is not possible to identify Barnett consequentials at The number of claims settled for depreciation caused by the road in use this time. Once the detailed budgeting and funding 2011 3 arrangements have been decided Barnett consequentials 2010 0 will be allocated in the normal way. 2009 9 2008 0 Liverpool Port: Finance 2007 0 2006 1 Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005 0 Transport what estimate she has made of the total level 2004 4 of public subsidy including European Regional 2003 0 Development Fund funding, awarded to the City of 2002 0 Liverpool Cruise Terminal. [95412] Note: Not all claims are settled in the year in which they are made. Mike Penning [holding answer 20 February 2012]: As Network Rail: Compensation set out in the Department’s 2011 consultation, the subsidies were estimated as: Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million Transport how much compensation was paid to each franchised train operator by Network Rail for delays North West Development Agency 7.16 and cancellations attributed to Network Rail in the Single Regeneration Budget 1.88 latest period for which figures are available; and how European Regional Development 8.62 much was paid by each operator to passengers affected Fund by these delays in that period. [94365] Mersey Waterfront Regional Park 0.16 Total 17.82 Norman Baker: The information requested is not held by the Department. These figures do not include other net expenditure by Liverpool city council itself, as owner-operator of the Information on compensation to train operators is terminal. held by Network Rail. The compensation regime is a contractual element within the track access agreement Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for between Network Rail and each operator, and is overseen Transport from whom she will be taking independent by the Office for Rail Regulation. advice on an appropriate figure for the level of The Department only holds information on repayment of grants from the City of Liverpool Cruise compensation payments to passengers for those train Terminal. [95566] operating companies which operate the delay/repay compensation system. Such compensation payments Mike Penning [holding answer 20 February 2012]: are made regardless of whether the delay was attributed Advice will be taken from a financial consultant selected to Network Rail or a train operator, so it is not possible from the Government Procurement Services Management to identify how much compensation is attributable to Consultancy and Accounting Services framework. An each. invitation to quote is currently open. Railways: Electrification M42 Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 July 2010, Transport how many compensation claims were settled Official Report, column 512W, on railways: under the statutory compensation scheme in respect of electrification, what further estimates have been the construction of the M42 in each of the last 10 made at 2009 prices of the cost of electrifying (a) the years. [94818] Great Western railway line from Swansea to London, 745W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 746W

(b) the North Wales coastline from Holyhead to The number of claims settled for property and land acquired (includes blight, Chester, (c) the Valley Lines Network, (d) the Severn compulsory purchase, by agreement, and discretionary purchase) Tunnel Diversionary Line and (e) lines to the West of Swansea (i) from Carmarthen to Swansea and (ii) from 2011 16 Carmarthen to Western terminus stations. [94976] 2010 31 2009 32 Mrs Villiers: The Department has not made any 2008 60 further estimates of Great Western electrification to 2007 43 Swansea, the North Wales Coast line, the Valley Lines 2006 80 Network, the Severn Tunnel diversionary route via 2005 31 Gloucester or lines west of Swansea to Carmarthen. 2004 69 2003 41 Roads: Accidents 2002 0

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of claims settled for depreciation caused by the road in use

Transport what estimate she has made of the number 2011 136 of (a) accidents and (b) deaths in road traffic 2010 255 collisions involving cyclists in (i) England, (ii) the 2009 829 North West, (iii) Cumbria and (iv) South Lakeland in 2008 5,692 [95214] each of the last five years. 2007 3,959 2006 205 Mike Penning [holding answer 20 February 2012]: 2005 555 The information requested is given in the following 2004 27 tables: 2003 0 (a) Reported personal injury road traffic accidents involving a pedal cyclist 2002 0 Area Note: South Not all claims are settled in the year in which they are made. England North west Cumbria Lakeland Transport: Schools 2006 15,167 1,913 116 25 2007 15,281 1,889 134 33 Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 15,410 1,862 113 27 Transport what steps her Department is taking 2009 16,157 1,934 121 29 together with the Department of Education to develop 2010 16,355 1,953 109 27 a strategy for children’s travel which encourages healthy and safe active travel to school. [94886] (b) All reported deaths resulting from these accidents Norman Baker [holding answer 20 February 2012]: In Area October 2010 the Department for Transport and South Department for Education jointly published the evaluation England North west Cumbria Lakeland of their shared Travel to School Initiative. This provides 2006 133 15 2 0 local authorities and schools with evidence to inform 2007 135 15 3 0 their own efforts to encourage active travel to school 2008 106 13 0 0 and is available at: 2009 98 8 2 0 http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/travelling-to-school- 2010 109 14 3 0 evaluation/ Local authorities are under a statutory duty to promote (c) Pedal cyclist deaths resulting from these accidents sustainable transport, such as cycling and walking, to Area and from school. The Departments continue to work South together, along with the Department of Health, to England North west Cumbria Lakeland promote and support active travel in children. 2006 127 14 2 0 I met with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, 2007 129 15 3 0 my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and 2008 102 13 0 0 Shoreham (Tim Loughton), in September 2011 to discuss 2009 93 8 2 0 how DfT and DfE can work together on school travel 2010 102 12 3 0 going forward. DfE have commissioned an ‘Efficiency and Practice Review of Home to School Transport’, Roads: Birmingham which they will be publishing in the near future.

Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many compensation claims were settled HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION under the statutory compensation scheme relating to Food: Waste Disposal the construction of the Birmingham Northern Relief Road in each of the last 10 years. [94794] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Mike Penning: The following tables list how many the House of Commons Commission what steps he is claims made relating to the construction of the Birmingham taking to implement the waste hierarchy approach for Northern Relief Road under the statutory compensation managing food waste generated by House of schemes were settled in each of the last 10 years. Commons food outlets. [95198] 747W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 748W

John Thurso: The waste hierarchy set out in the Waste Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (England and Wales) Regulations 2011 is: prevention; Pensions if he will publish a list of all the preparing for re-use; recycling; other recovery; disposal. correspondence he has received to date from (a) Food waste is currently disposed of as part of the mixed individuals and (b) institutions on the potential impact general waste stream, which is sent to a local “energy of (i) reductions in local housing allowance and (ii) the from incineration” facility; none of the food or office proposed household benefit cap. [93966] waste produced on the Estate is disposed of to landfill. The Catering and Retail Service seeks to reduce the Steve Webb: The information is not available in the amount of food waste by various means. These include: format requested and could be provided only at the use, where appropriate, of pre-prepared fresh or disproportionate cost. frozen vegetables and other ingredients; careful production planning and menu management; the re-use and re-sale Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of foods that are still fit for consumption; good stock and Pensions what proportion of claimants of housing rotation practices; careful handling and storage of delicate benefit were (a) employed and (b) unemployed in the foods, in particular with regard to temperature control latest period for which figures are available. [94492] and cross-contamination risks; and purchasing of quantities and package sizes that are appropriate for the needs of Steve Webb: The economic status of all HB recipients the business. is not available. Information is only available for those Work is now under way with the House’s new waste HB recipients whose claim is not passported: that is for management contractor to reduce waste generated on-site those who do not receive either income support, jobseekers and increase recycling and composting rates. A pilot allowance (income-based), employment and support scheme to compost food waste from the Terrace kitchen allowance (income based), or pension credit (guarantee is being organised, with extension to all outlets on the credit). A small proportion of the passported cases will Estate to be pursued thereafter, which will move the be in part-time employment. The available information House’s food waste management arrangements further is shown in the following table. up the waste hierarchy. Number and percentage of housing benefit claimants (not passported) by Hacking employment status, in Great Britain: October 2011 Not passported

Karl McCartney: To ask the hon. Member for All not passported 1,678,080 Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Not employed 836,710 the House of Commons Commission whether the Percentage not employed 49.9 House of Commons Commission has received any Employed 841,370 reports of hacking by third parties of Parliamentary Percentage employed 50.1 Estate (a) telephone services and (b) servers. [94863] Notes: 1. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. John Thurso: It is not the policy of the Commission 2. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 3. These data incorporate the local authority changes from 1 April 2009. to comment on security matters. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data are available monthly from November 2008 and October 2011 are the most recent available. WORK AND PENSIONS 5. These data refer to people receiving housing benefit not in receipt of a passported benefit and are recorded as being in employment if their local authority has recorded employment income from either the main claimant, or Employment Schemes: Apprentices the claimant’s partner (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit award. People receiving passported benefits who are working part-time cannot be Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State identified and are therefore not included in this analysis. 6. Does not include recipients with unknown passported status. for Work and Pensions how many Work Programme 7. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10, and percentages to the nearest 0.1%. job outcomes have been the result of placement on an Source: apprenticeship in the last year. [94451] Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE). Chris Grayling: The Department intends to start Housing Benefit: Lancashire publishing official statistics on referrals to the Work programme today and on job outcomes from the autumn. Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work This is in line with guidelines set by the UK Statistics and Pensions how many working households within Authority to ensure published statistics meet the required (a) Rossendale borough council and (b) Blackburn high quality standards. and Darwen council area were in receipt of housing Housing Benefit benefit in the most recent period for which figures are available. [94381] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library copies of all Steve Webb: The economic status of all HB recipients correspondence received by his Department from local is not available. Information is only available for those authorities on the potential effect of reductions in local HB recipients whose claim is not passported: that is for housing allowance on (a) homelessness or (b) local those who do not receive either income support, jobseekers authority budgets. [93937] allowance (income-based), employment and support allowance (income-based), or pension credit (guarantee Steve Webb: The information is not available in the credit). A small proportion of the passported cases will format requested and could be provided only at be in part-time employment. The available information disproportionate cost. is shown in the following table. 749W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 750W

Housing benefit recipients, non-passported, in employment, in Steve Webb: There have been no recent discussions Rossendale and Blackburn & Darwen local authority areas: October- between DWP and Royal Mail Ltd on the future of 2011 Post Office card accounts. The Post Office card account October 2011 contract is due to run to March 2015, with the option of of which a two-year extension beyond that date. All non passported In employment The Department has had dialogue with Royal Mail Blackburn with Darwen 3,610 1,680 Ltd including, but not limited to, the provision of new UA types of budgeting accounts to support the introduction Rossendale 1,490 590 of universal credit. Notes: 1. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a UN Conventions on the Rights of the Child couple. 2. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 3. These data incorporate the local authority changes from 1 April Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2009. and Pensions when he plans to respond to the 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct conclusions of the child rights impact assessment of from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate the Welfare Reform Bill published by the Children’s clerical returns. The data are available monthly from November 2008 Commissioner for England on 11 January 2012. [92004] and October 2011 are the most recent available. 5. These data refer to people receiving housing benefit not in receipt of a passported benefit and are recorded as being in employment if Maria Miller: An official response to the child rights their local authority has recorded employment income from either the impact assessment was sent on 13 February 2012. main claimant, or the claimant’s partner (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit award. People receiving passported housing benefit Working Tax Credit who are working part-time cannot be identified and are therefore not included in this analysis. 6. Does not include recipients with unknown passported status. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 7. Numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. and Pensions what analysis he has made of the impact Source: of the freeze in the couple and lone parent element of Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE). working tax credit announced in the Autumn Incapacity Benefit Statement on the incentive for women to (a) take up paid work and (b) increase their hours of paid work. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State [94766] for Work and Pensions what progress he has made on reassessing recipients of incapacity benefit. [94452] Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Treasury. Chris Grayling: IB (IS) reassessment has been successfully No analysis has been made of the impact of the implemented and the reassessment exercise remains on freeze in the couple and lone parent elements of working track to be completed by spring 2014. tax credit announced in the autumn statement on the We are reassessing around 11,000 claimants on incapacity incentive for women to (a) take up paid work and (b) benefits a week. increase their hours of paid work. Those who are ready and fit for work are being supported into work via the work programme. Those who are not fit for work will continue to WOMEN AND EQUALITIES receive ongoing support for as long as they need it. Departmental Billing Post Office Card Account Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for Women and Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Equalities how many and what proportion of her Work and Pensions what support he plans to provide to Department’s invoices from its private sector suppliers individuals to move from a Post Office card account to were paid (a) within 14 days, (b) between 15 and a bank account for the purposes of promoting 30 days, (c) between 31 and 60 days, (d) between 61 financial inclusion. [94728] and 90 days and (e) more than 90 days after receipt in the last 12 months. [93448] Steve Webb: In preparation for the introduction of universal credit in 2013 my Department has been working Lynne Featherstone: I refer the hon. Member to the with the banking sector, credit unions, and Post Office answer given on 9 February 2012, Official Report, columns Ltd to explore the opportunity to create cost-effective 348-49W, from the Minister for Immigration, the hon. budgeting accounts that would provide access to Member for Ashford (Damian Green). mainstream banking facilities such as direct debits. Such accounts would promote financial inclusion by Departmental Pay helping lower income families take more responsibility for household budgeting and set aside money for such Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for Women and things as rent and fuel bills. Equalities how much was paid to officials in the Government Equalities Office in (a) bonuses, (b) Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for allowances and (c) other payments additional to Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with basic salary in each of the last two years for which Royal Mail Ltd on the future of Post Office card figures are available; what categories of payment may accounts; and if he will make a statement. [94730] be made to officials in addition to basic salary; what 751W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 752W the monetary value is of each category of payment; Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for and what the monetary value was of the 20 largest such Business, Innovation and Skills how many people are payments made in each of the last two years. [89704] currently undertaking an Access to Apprenticeships placement; and how many such apprentices are aged Lynne Featherstone: I refer the hon. Member to the (a) 16 to 18 and (b) 19 to 24; and how many were (i) answer given on 9 February 2012, Official Report, columns not in education, training or employment for the whole 350-52W, from the Minister for Immigration, the hon. of the preceding 13 weeks or more prior to the start Member for Ashford (Damian Green). date and (ii) were assessed and eligible for additional learning support. [95123] Part-Time Employment Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of people Kate Green: To ask the Minister for Women and starting an apprenticeship framework through the Access Equalities what work her Department has done to to Apprenticeship pathway, by age, between August follow up the findings of the evaluation of the quality 2011 and October 2011. These are provisional figures part-time work fund published by the Government for the first quarter of the 2011/12 academic year and Equalities Office in November 2010; and if she will will change as further data returns are received from make a statement. [94770] further education colleges and providers.

Lynne Featherstone: The Quality Part-time Work Fund Table 1: Access to Apprenticeship, by age, August 2011 to October 2011 was established by the previous Government following (provisional) a recommendation from the Womenand Work Commission Under 19 1,100 in 2006. An evaluation of the fund was conducted in 19-24 250 2009 and a final report published in November 2010. 25+ 1— The Government are committed to improving flexibility Total 1,350 in the workplace including in senior roles and set out 1 Indicates a base value of less than 5. proposals to achieve this aim in the Modern Workplaces Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. consultation. These include extending the right to request 2. Age is based on age at the start of the programme. flexible working to all employees and introducing a new Source: system of flexible parental leave. The Government will Individualised Learner Record publish their response to the consultation in due course. To be eligible for the Access to Apprenticeship pathway, an individual must either (i) be defined as not in education, employment or training (NEET) for the whole of the preceding 13-weeks or more prior to start date, and/or BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS (ii) assessed and eligible for additional learning support Apprentices (additional learning needs (ALN), additional social needs (ASN) or both). However, information is not available centrally on the number of people on the Access to Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Apprenticeship pathway that fit each of these criteria. Innovation and Skills which 10 firms received the most funding for apprenticeships in the last year for which Information on the number of people joining the figures are available; and what the total monetary value Access to Apprenticeship pathway is published in footnotes to Tables 18 and 19 of a quarterly Statistical First of funding was to each such firm. [94480] Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 31 January Mr Hayes: The following table, based on information 2012: provided by the Skills Funding Agency (SFA), shows http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ which 10 employers which received the most funding statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current for apprenticeships in the 2010/11 academic year and The National Apprenticeship Service is monitoring the total amount of funding actually received. and reviewing the impact of this new pathway in its first year, working with departmental officials and training Name Total actual payments provider representatives, in order to ensure its effectiveness in meeting its objective. Mcdonald’s Restaurants Ltd 10,176,007.85 Apprenticeship starts increased to 457,200 in the British Gas Services Ltd 3,703,673.69 2010/11 academic year, an increase of 63.5% on 2009/10. British Telecommunications Public 3,176,988.96 Ltd Company Phones 4u Ltd 2,915,751.99 Apprentices: Nuclear Power Bae Systems Plc 2,797,402.51 Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd 1,934,953.95 Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for TUI UK Ltd 1,893,502.34 Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had Toni and Guy UK Training Ltd 1,549,046.00 discussions with Westinghouse in Lancashire on Jarvis Training Management Ltd 1,432,434.49 apprenticeships in the nuclear industry. [94829] Tesco Stores Ltd 1,354,278.77 Mr Hayes: While I have not personally met with The SFA also publish details of funding allocations Westinghouse, officials from the Department for Business, made to individual colleges, training organisations and Innovation and Skills recently met with the National employers for the delivery of apprenticeships on their Skills Academy for Nuclear, of which Westinghouse are website: board members, to discuss the development of an http://skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/providers/programmes apprenticeship strategy for the nuclear sector. 753W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 754W

The National Apprenticeship Service advise me that Climate Research Unit at the university of East Anglia, that Westinghouse are very engaged in delivering is publicly available through the Met Office website at apprenticeships both within their own organisation and http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/monitoring/climate/ to the supply chain, (both nuclear and engineering), surface-temperature within the local area from their training facility, thus promoting apprenticeships to a wider range of employers Copyright: Arts and individuals, and they should be congratulated on that. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Business made of the financial effect on the creative industries of his proposals in the consultation on copyright to (a) Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for widen the exception for education, (b) remove the Business, Innovation and Skills how many companies licensing scheme for educational uses and (c) registered with Companies House were actively trading introduce a statutory code for collective licensing. in each region in each year since 2002. [95041] [94315]

Norman Lamb: Companies House does not hold any Norman Lamb [holding answer 20 February 2012]: information in regional format. The information could None of the Government’s proposals would remove be developed but only at a disproportionate cost; it licensing schemes for educational uses, so no assessment could only be retrieved as a bespoke product at a cost of of their removal has been made. at least several thousand pounds. The Government are exploring the scope of licensing Additionally, Companies House does not have schemes with regard to certain limited uses of copyrighted information on a company’s current trading status, as materials. Initial impact assessments for education its most up-to-date information is derived from accounts exceptions and proposals to introduce codes of conduct filed for a company’s previous financial year. for collecting societies were prepared prior to consultation from sources including publicly available data and evidence Business: Finance provided to the Intellectual Property Office by interested parties. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s copyright consultation, which runs Business, Innovation and Skills what evidence he until 21 March 2012, will provide an opportunity for considered before deciding to abolish the Grant for interested organisations and individuals to contribute Business Investment scheme. [95220] evidence to help inform more robust analysis of the options under consideration. Mr Prisk: The Grant for Business Investment scheme has not been abolished. It remains open to large exceptional Copyright: Economic Growth projects. Its scope has been reduced to reflect that the fact that its principle delivery mechanism, the regional development agencies, are in the course of closing down. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what analysis his Business: Government Assistance Department has conducted to determine the likely effects of implementing the Hargreaves Review of intellectual property and growth’s recommendations Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for on economic growth. [94867] Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment was made of the effectiveness of the Grant for Business Norman Lamb [holding answer 20 February 2012]: Investment scheme before it was abolished; and if he The initial impact assessments published with the current will make a statement. [95221] consultation on copyright were developed on the basis of available evidence from a range of sources, including Mr Prisk: Regular assessments have been made of the submissions made to the Hargreaves Review. As the the effectiveness of national regional aid schemes over a Government develops its proposals on the rest of the period of time. The most recent “Evaluation of Regional Hargreaves agenda impact assessments will be developed Selective Assistance (RSA) and its successor, Selective and published alongside them. Finance for Investment in England (SFIE)”, was published in March 2008. Grant for Business Investment is the Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for name given to the current English national scheme; it Business, Innovation and Skills what analysis his replaced SFIE in 2008. It remains open to large exceptional Department has conducted on the likely effect of his projects. copyright consultation proposals on economic growth. [94894] Climate Change Norman Lamb [holding answer 20 February 2012]: David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for The initial impact assessments published with the current Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish a consultation on copyright were developed on the basis table setting out the Met Office’s estimate of average of available evidence from a range of sources, including global temperatures for each year since 1997. [95189] the submissions made to the Hargreaves Review. The Government are now seeking more detailed evidence on Norman Lamb: The Met Office global average the costs and benefits to all parties who could be temperature record, produced in collaboration with the affected by the proposals, through public consultation. 755W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 756W

Food: Industry Higher Education: Student Numbers

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to Business, Innovation and Skills which higher education present a revised Groceries Adjudicator Bill and if he providers submitted bids to the Higher Education will make a statement. [95433] Funding Council for England for contestable student places; and for how many places each provider bid. Norman Lamb: The Government are committed to [94719] setting up a Groceries Code Adjudicator as soon as parliamentary time allows. As the Leader of the House Mr Hayes: The Higher Education Funding Council of Commons, the right hon. Member for North West for England (HEFCE) will confirm the allocation of Hampshire (Sir George Young), said on 15 December higher education places to institutions that have successfully 2011, Official Report, column 937, the Groceries Code bid from the contestable margin, by the end of February, Adjudicator Bill is a strong candidate for consideration following an appeals process. HEFCE will make an as part of the second Session of Parliament. announcement about the outcome of that process shortly afterwards. Free School Meals HEFCE do not intend to publish information about which individual institutions have bid for contestable Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for places or how many places they have bid for. Business, Innovation and Skills how many students at Oxford and Cambridge universities were previously in Overseas Students: Saudi Arabia receipt of free school meals in the latest year for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for [94996] Business, Innovation and Skills how many Saudi citizens were studying in the UK in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 Mr Hayes: The information is as follows: and (c) 2010. [93877] Estimated number of English maintained school pupils receiving free school meals at age 15 in 2004/05 who progressed to Cambridge or Oxford universities by age 19: academic year 2008/09 Mr Hayes: Information on the number of enrolments University Former FSM students1 for Saudi Arabian domiciled students is shown in the table, for UK higher education institutions. Figures are Cambridge 25 provided for the academic years 2008/09, 2009/10 and Oxford 20 2010/11. Equivalent figures for enrolments at further 1 Student numbers are rounded to the nearest multiple of 5. education colleges are not available as information on Source: Matched data from the DfE National Pupil Database, the Higher Education the domicile of learners at further education colleges is Statistics Agency Student Record and the Learning and Skills Council Individualised not held. Learner Record Saudi Arabian domiciled1 enrolments2. UK higher education institutions Gender: Equality academic years 2007/08 to 2010/11 Academic year Enrolments

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008/09 5,205 Business, Innovation and Skills what objectives the 2009/10 8,340 Skills Funding Agency has set relating to the 2010/11 10,270 promotion of gender equality. [94771] 1 This field of the HESA Student Record records the country of the student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to the course. 2 Covers students in all years of study. Mr Hayes: The Skills Funding Agency is producing a Note: set of equality objectives as part of its draft Single Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been Equality Scheme. These will be finalised by 6 April rounded to the nearest five, so components may not sum to totals. Source: 2012, in line with the requirements of the Equality Act Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record. 2010, and will be supported by an action plan. The objectives apply to all protected characteristics, including Overseas Trade gender, and aim to embed equality into the decisions and activities of the agency. Mr Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary Higher Education value of UK exports to other EU countries was, excluding the Rotterdam-Antwerp effect, in each year Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State since 1997. [95242] for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to bring forward legislative proposals on reform of higher Mr Prisk [holding answer 20 February 2012]: The education. [94450] Office for National Statistics produces its trade statistics in accordance with international guidelines. The statistics Mr Willetts: We cannot pre-empt the Queen’s Speech are based on data collected by HM Revenue and Customs. by making definitive pronouncements about precisely When the information on trade flows is collected, exporters how and when this legislation will be taken forward. are explicitly asked to state the final destination of the However, subject to parliamentary time, the Department goods or services which are being exported. It is not for Business, Innovation and Skills intends to bring possible to estimate the possible impact of the Rotterdam- forward legislation to enable our reforms as set out in Antwerp effect without increasing the burden on at our White Paper and regulatory framework consultations. least some businesses. 757W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 758W

The monetary value of UK exports of goods to the which typically do not conduct any significant operations in the EU27 for the years since 1997 is as follows: country in which they are resident, other than to pass through investment from their parent company to an affiliate in another £ million country.” Overseas Trade: Middle East 1997 99,891 1998 99,300 1999 101,473 Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 112,436 Business, Innovation and Skills if he will list the 2001 114,373 projects which led to (a) Egypt and (b) Sudan owing its current debts to UK Export Finance. [95609] 2002 114,689 2003 111,252 Norman Lamb [holding answer 20 February 2012]: 2004 111,678 The Export Credits Guarantee Department (UK Export 2005 121,478 Finance) is currently carrying out an exercise to ascertain 2006 152,512 what information exists to be able to identify individual 2007 127,684 projects. Because of the age of the related export contracts 2008 141,834 and the sheer volume of files involved, this exercise is 2009 124,700 ongoing. 2010 142,208 When it is complete, the outcome will be placed in the Source: ONS Balance of Payments (Pink Book) Libraries of the House. Student Loans Company: Pay Mr Shepherd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is taking to ensure the accuracy of UK Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Balance of Payment statistics with regards to the (a) Business, Innovation and Skills when the Permanent Rotterdam effect and (b) Netherlands distortion; and Secretary to his Department became aware of the arrangements for remunerating the chief executive of if he will make a statement. [95243] the Student Loans Company. [95043] [holding answer 20 February 2012]: Mr Prisk: The Mr Willetts: I refer the right hon. Member to the UK Balance of Payment statistics are produced by the answer I gave on 20 February 2012, Official Report, Office for National Statistics (ONS), using trade in column reference 561W. goods data from HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The ONS follows the international standards relating to Supermarkets: Competition balance of payments and international investment position statistics. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Balance of Payments statistics are National Statistics. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment National Statistics are produced to high professional the Office of Fair Trading has made of market features standards set out in the Code of Practice for Official restricting, preventing or distorting competition Statistics. They are produced free from political influence. between supermarkets and small independent retailers. While the Department for Business, Innovation and [94255] Skills is not responsible for the production of the Balance of Payments statistics, its statisticians have close working Norman Lamb: The Office of Fair Trading made a relationships with data producers in ONS and HMRC, market investigation referral to the Competition and are members of the Balance of Payments Statistics Commission in respect of the groceries market in May User Group. 2006. This resulted in the latter’s 2008 report, which can The ONS issued a written statement on 13 February be viewed at the following weblink 2012 regarding the treatment of statistics on exports to http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/ref2006/ the European Union published by the Office for National grocery/index.htm Statistics and the account these take of trans-shipments to non-EU countries (the “Rotterdam effect”). This will Hansard be published in shortly. HEALTH With regards to the “Netherlands distortion”, the ONS state the following in their FDI publication: Health Allocation Formula “In line with international agreements on country allocation for FDI purposes, the analysis of UK FDI abroad (outward) is 16. David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for based on the country of ownership of the immediate subsidiary. Health what plans he has to review the health Similarly the analysis of FDI in the UK (inward) is based on allocation formula. [95327] the country that owns the immediate parent company. Thus, FDI in a UK company may be attributed to the country of the intervening foreign subsidiary, rather than the country of the Mr Simon Burns: The independent Advisory Committee ultimate parent. on Resource Allocation constantly reviews the approach and has been asked to support the detailed The relative importance of the Netherlands and Luxembourg as destinations for direct investment by UK companies may development of allocations for clinical commissioning partly reflect the presence of so-called Special Purpose Entities groups and local authorities for their future public (SPEs) in these countries. The term SPE is used to refer to entities health responsibilities. Their recommendations will be such as financing subsidiaries, shell companies and conduits, published in due course. 759W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 760W

Patient Outcomes 2.8%. It is for them to decide how to prioritise their spending to meet the needs of their communities, including 17. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for reducing health inequalities. Health what progress he has made in improving Patient Demand outcomes for NHS patients. [95328]

Anne Milton: Last December we published data against 22. Mr Leigh: To ask the Secretary of State for 30 indicators in the new NHS Outcomes Framework. Health what steps he is taking to make the NHS more Progress will continue with our emphasis on outcomes responsive to patient demand. [95333] rather than process. The data shows that for 25 of these new measures the Anne Milton: Making the NHS more responsiveness national health service has improved or maintained to patients’ needs was set out in “Equity and Excellence: performance including Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Liberating the NHS”, as a central theme in the aureus infections down by half and C. difficile infections Government’s vision to place patients and the public at down by 40% since 2008-09. the heart of the NHS. To deliver this vision the Health and Social Care Bill NHS Hospitals: Debt will place new legal duties on the NHS Commissioning Board and Clinical Commissioning Groups to promote 18. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State the involvement of patients in decisions about their care for Health what steps he is taking to reduce the burden and treatment and to involve patients and public in of debt on NHS hospitals. [95329] their planning and decision making. We are committed to driving continuous improvements in the quality of Mr Lansley: Of 244 foundation trusts and national care, by giving patients greater choice and control over health service trusts, in the last financial year 231 ended their treatment, and by making shared decision-making the year in surplus and only 13 in operating deficit. the norm in our health and social care services: “no Some NHS trusts however have historic debt issues. decision about me, without me” and “no decision about For each of these, we are working progressively to us, without us”. resolve these issues and ensure that they deliver high quality services, enabling them to achieve foundation Private Health Care trust status with the clear benefits that this brings. 23. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Dentistry Health what proportion of beds will be occupied by private patients in the NHS in each year to 2015. 19. Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for [95334] Health what steps he is taking to improve access to NHS dentistry. [95330] Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not collect this information. The NHS locally must ensure that the Paul Burstow: Access has already grown by over three right number of beds are available and that NHS funds quarters of a million since May 2010, with 991,000 are invested efficiently to deliver high quality NHS more patients able to see a national health service patient care. NHS commissioners, through legal contracts dentist. We announced last week an extra £28 million in with NHS providers, are responsible for ensuring timely year funding to increase this still further. and high-quality care for NHS patients. Competition: NHS Health and Social Care Bill 20. Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent representations he has received 24. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for from health care professionals on the effect of Health what recent representations he has received from healthcare professionals on the Health and Social increased competition on the NHS. [95331] Care Bill. [95335] Anne Milton: The Government have listened to a wide range of representations throughout the passage Anne Milton: The Government have received a wide of the Health and Social Care Bill, including from range of representations throughout the passage of the health care professionals. Health and Social Care Bill, including from healthcare professionals. Ministers have frequently met health care professionals and listened to their views on issues, including those As a result, we have substantially strengthened our relating to competition. proposals. We accepted all the core recommendations of the NHS Future Forum. Health Inequalities Services: Older People 21. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what changes his Department has made to the 25. Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for level of funding to address health inequalities in the Health what recent assessment he has made of the last 12 months. [95332] quality of services for older people. [95336]

Anne Milton: In the current financial year, primary Paul Burstow: A number of independent audits, care trusts will receive an average growth of 3% in their investigations and inspections have revealed long standing total funding, and in 2012-13 total funding will grow by and unacceptable variations in the standard of care 761W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 762W older people receive in the national health service and NHS Foundation Trusts: North East social care. The Government are determined to root out poor quality care wherever it is found. We have established Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the National Nursing and Care Quality Forum to work Health (1) on what date he anticipates the merger of with patients, carers and professionals to spread best York NHS Foundation Trust and Scarborough NHS practice. Trust; what accumulated surplus or deficit he anticipates each trust will have immediately prior to Accident and Emergency Departments merger; and what surplus or deficit will be written off for each trust as a consequence of merger; [95192] Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what (a) annual surplus of deficit on current Health how many patients had more than (a) one, (b) expenditure and (b) accumulated deficit was recorded five, (c) 10, (d) 20, (e) 50 and (f) 100 finished by (i) York NHS Foundation Trust and (ii) admission episodes which were emergency admissions Scarborough NHS Trust at the end of the (A) 2009-10 in the last year for which figures are available. [95053] and (B) 2010-11 financial years; and what estimate he has made of the corresponding figures for each trust at Mr Simon Burns: The available information is shown the end of the 2011-12 financial year. [95230] in the following table. Count of patients1 admitted to hospital2 as an emergency admission3 on more Mr Simon Burns: The completion of the acquisition than one occasion in the period April 2010 to March 2011 of Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Hospitals by Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in York Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation trust is expected the independent sector 4 for 1 July 2012 subject to the necessary approvals from Number of emergency admissions Patient count Ministers and the independent regulator of foundation More than 1 909,904 trusts, Monitor. More than 5 40,299 Scarborough NHS Trust reported a surplus of More than 10 5,215 £1.91 million in their 2009-10 final accounts and a More than 20 575 surplus of £1.87 million in their 2010-11 final accounts. More than 50 34 The trust is forecasting a surplus of £1.88 million at More than 100 5 quarter two of 2011-12. At the point of the acquisition, 1 Patient counts it is anticipated that Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Patient counts are based on the unique patient identifier, HESID. This identifier is derived from a patient’s date of birth, postcode, sex, local patient identifier Hospitals NHS Trust will be in a break-even position. and NHS number, using a standard algorithm. Where data are incomplete, As a NHS foundation trust, York Teaching Hospitals HESID might wrongly link episodes or fail to recognise episodes for the same report their financial position to Monitor and in their patient. Care is therefore needed, especially where the data includes duplicate records. Patient counts must not be summed across a table where patients may published annual report, which is laid before Parliament. have episodes in more than one cell. More information about HESID can be No financial surplus or deficit will be “written off” as a found at: consequence of the acquisition. www.hesonline.nhs.uk/Ease/servlet/ ContentServer?siteID=1937&categoryID=330 2 Finished admission episodes NHS: Interpreters A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within Health (1) how many organisations tendered for each the year. 3 Emergency Admission NHS trust’s interpretation contract awarded to An emergency admission is an admission to hospital where the method of Applied Language Solutions; which organisations were admission is recorded as: shortlisted; what the monetary value of their tenders 21 = Emergency: via Accident and Emergency (A&E) services, including the casualty department of the provider was; what criteria were used to award contracts; and 22 = Emergency: via general practitioner (GP) whether any other organisations were invited to submit 23 = Emergency: via Bed Bureau, including the Central Bureau a final tender; [95521] 24 = Emergency: via consultant out-patient clinic 28 = Emergency: other means, including patients who arrive via the A&E (2) if he will place in the Library a copy of each department of another health care provider 4 Number of Emergency admissions document relating to the assessment of Applied Where the number of admissions is more than one, this includes records with Language Solutions’ applications for NHS trusts’ more than five and more than 10 admissions etc. interpretation contracts. [95522] Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre Paul Burstow: This information is not held centrally. General Practitioners The provision of interpretation and translation services by NHS bodies is a matter for local determination. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to improve patient Nurses: Manpower trust in GP decision-making. [94900] Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Simon Burns: Patient surveys consistently show for Health how many full-time equivalent multiple that patients see general practitioners (GPs) as the most sclerosis and Parkinson’s specialist nurses there were by trusted profession in the national health service with primary care trust in the last five years for which some 94% of patients responding to the GP patient figures are available. [95399] survey saying they have trust and confidence in their GP. That is one reason why GPs are best placed to Paul Burstow: Information on the number of full-time understand and be responsible for meeting the needs of equivalent multiple sclerosis and Parkinson’s specialist patients. nurses is not collected centrally. 763W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 764W

It is the responsibility of primary care trusts to The powers to enact further regulations have not ensure they have sufficient staff available to meet the been used and the Government are not planning to needs of their local population. introduce any further regulations for England at the present time. We will keep the position under review. Pharmacy The Health and Safety Executive provides best practice guidance for sunbed businesses—‘Reducing health risks Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State from the use of ultraviolet (UV) tanning equipment’—and for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the time a poster and leaflet with advice for operators and customers taken to supply prescription medications to local available at: pharmacies; [95486] www.hse.gov.uk/press/2009/e09038.htm (2) what estimate he has made of the number of The advice for customers includes information about patients affected by the time taken in the supply of the health risks associated with the use of tanning medicine to local pharmacies; [95487] equipment. (3) what assessment he has made of the parallel SunSmart, the national skin cancer prevention campaign, exportation of medicines from the UK market to other also provides information and advice about the risks to European markets; [95489] health of sunbeds at: (4) what assessment he has made of the (a) time and www.sunsmart.org.uk/advice-and-prevention/sunbeds (b) money spent by local pharmacists in acquiring emergency supplies of medicines from wholesalers, manufacturers and other pharmacists for patients; JUSTICE [95490] (5) what assessment he has made of the potential Departmental Air Travel effect of a shortage of raw materials on the supply of prescription medicines to local pharmacies; [95492] Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (6) if he will estimate the cost to the NHS of on what occasions he has taken flights within the UK pharmacists spending between one and three hours per on official business since August 2010; what class of week securing medications for their customers’ travel he used; and who accompanied him on each such flight. [94797] prescriptions. [95493] Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have not taken any flights Mr Simon Burns: Pharmacies make their own commercial within the UK since August 2010. arrangements with suppliers and therefore the information is not centrally held. Departmental ICT Medicines supply is a large and complex market and while the majority of medicines are supplied to patients John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for in an appropriate time scale, we are aware that pharmacies Justice what his policy is on an in-house bid for the are experiencing difficulties in obtaining some medicines Quantum information and communications which in turn causes delay in getting these medicines to technology contract; and whether his Department’s patients. The Department continues to work collaboratively management board has considered making such a bid. with the medicines supply chain stakeholders (including [94628] those representing retail pharmacists) to better understand Mr Kenneth Clarke: An internal bid for the recompetition and mitigate the impact of supply difficulties so that of the Quantum contract was not considered by the patients receive the medicines they need promptly. Ministry of Justice as, like many Government Departments, Referral Management System: Coventry the Ministry outsources the provision of ICT to the private sector. The Ministry does not have the in-house capability to deliver the services or infrastructure required Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State to keep our prisons and NOMS HQ operating. A key for Health if he will assess the effectiveness of the driver of this project is to maintain business continuity Referral Management System in Coventry. [94901] for NOMS HQ/prisons, hence the need to outsource to a supplier with the capability and capacity to deliver. Mr Simon Burns: It is for the local national health service to assess the effectiveness of the Referral Departmental Procurement Management System in Coventry. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Sunbeds: Safety (1) what proportion of the total value of contracts issued or to be issued by his Department in 2011-12 Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for have required successful organisations to put up a Health what plans he has to bring forward legislative capital bond; and if he will make a statement; [94912] proposals to require clear and accurate health (2) which contracts his Department has tendered or information to be provided at sunbed salons in will tender in 2011-12 which require successful England. [95664] organisations to have a capital bond of more than £5 million; which contracts have not required such a Anne Milton: The Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010 bond; and if he will make a statement. [94931] contains powers for further regulation including the provision for those carrying out sunbed businesses to Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice has not provide and display prescribed health information to issued any contracts where the successful organisation persons who are using or may seek to use a sunbed. has been required to put up a capital bond. 765W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 766W

All contracts that have been tendered by the Department Prisons: Mental Health Services are available in the public domain on the Contracts Finder website at: http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what use his Department has made of mindfulness- This is updated on a daily basis. based therapy techniques in (a) improving well-being and (b) reducing recidivism in the prison population. Homicide: British Nationals Abroad [95064]

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what discussions he has had with (a) EU institutions Mr Blunt: The information requested is as follows: and (b) EU member states on support services and (a) There are a number of interventions that seek to improve financial assistance available to bereaved families based well-being as part of their overall aim. However, our data systems in the UK of British nationals murdered in another EU do not allow for identification of the techniques on which those member state. [95505] interventions are based. (b) Mindfulness-based therapy techniques is a term that could Mr Kenneth Clarke: The UK has opted into the cover a range of therapeutic approaches. It is an emerging area of proposed directive establishing minimum standards on psychological therapy that as yet, does not have a large evidence the rights, support and protection of victims of crime. I base in the forensic field. have had discussions with other member states at Justice We have a number of accredited interventions accredited and Home Affairs Council meetings held since the by the Correctional Services Accreditation Panel and proposal was published in May 2011. On 14 December the goal of these programmes is to reduce reoffending. 2011, I attended the Justice and Home Affairs Council However, some programmes use mindfulness—or and agreed with other member states a draft text of the techniques influenced by mindfulness—in their approach. proposed directive. Victims, including bereaved families For example, in the violence genre of accredited based in the UK of British nationals murdered in programmes, the Building Better Relationships (BBR) another EU member state, will be afforded minimum intimate partner violence programme uses techniques rights, support and protection by the directive similar to that draw on, and are influenced by mindfulness, to that already provided to victims of crime committed in help participants develop reflective thinking and self- the UK. monitoring, recognise and tolerate problematic emotions and address rumination and hostile and resentful thinking. Offences Against Children Mindfulness training is a key component of the CARE Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (Choices Actions Relationships and Emotions) programme, how many people have been (a) prosecuted for and (b) to help participants engage in treatment sessions, develop convicted of common assault against a child in each of self-awareness and cope more effectively with their emotions. the last seven years; and in how many cases the In SCP (Self Change programme), mindfulness does reasonable punishment defence was used. [95052] not play such an integral role, but some therapeutic techniques are inspired by mindfulness training and are Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings used as an optional complementary approach, to strengthen Database holds information on offences where proceedings participants’ ability to develop their reflective thinking have been brought but not all the circumstances of each and self-monitoring skills. case. Information held centrally on common assault It is also used in a similar way in the RESOLVE proceedings does not identify the victim’s age or whether programme, where mindfulness approaches are used to the reasonable punishment defence was pleaded. compliment more traditional cognitive behavioural therapy. These techniques help participants develop reflective Prisons: Discipline thinking and self-monitoring, notice and tolerate emotions and notice when they begin to ruminate and take steps Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if to avoid hostile rumination and angry and resentful he will bring forward proposals to amend legislation thinking. relating to freedom of information and data protection laws to enable (a) the public and (b) victims of crime Cognitive and motivational programmes and substance to obtain the disciplinary records of offenders in misuse interventions encourage participants to consider their relationships, their emotions, values and rules and custody. [94704] how they impact on factors such as substance use and Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government do not have offending. Participants are supported in exploring how plans to amend the Freedom of Information Act they can challenge their thinking where this does not (FOIA) or the Data Protection Act at this time beyond support a pro social life style and practice the appropriate measures already contained in the Protection of skills and tools both inside and out of sessions. It is fair Freedoms Bill. The Justice Select Committee is currently to say that while participants are encouraged to be undertaking post legislative scrutiny of the FOIA and ‘mindful’, this does not incorporate the techniques of any further amendment should take place in the context mindfulness based therapy. of that process. The Government are committed to Where the techniques are not employed then the improving services for victims of crime. On 30 January future development of all programmes will take into the Government launched a consultation with far-reaching account any relevant evidence based practice. Decisions proposals for improving the support provided to victims about the inclusion of such methods will be informed and witnesses. by the ongoing analysis of the relevant literature. 767W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 768W

EDUCATION Children: Social Services

Children: Modelling Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will bring forward an additional special Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for grant for local authorities for the funding of looked- Education what assessment he has made of the after children and children’s social services. [95391] premature sexualisation of child models in advertising and the fashion industry; and if he will make a Sarah Teather: Looked after children and children’s statement. [95197] social care services are funded by local authorities from a combination of council tax and formula grant, which Tim Loughton [holding answer 20 February 2012]: In is a grant paid by the Department for Communities and December 2010 the Government asked Reg Bailey, chief Local Government. The Government have no plans to executive of the Mother’s Union, to carry out an introduce an additional grant. It is for councils to independent review of the commercialisation and manage pressures in these areas from within their overall sexualisation of childhood. His report, ‘Letting Children budget. be Children’, was published in June 2011 and is available English Language: Peterborough on the Department for Education’s website: https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State publicationDetail/Page1/CM%208078 for Education how many pupils in Peterborough Mr Bailey’s recommendations include measures to constituency did not achieve English skills at (a) Level bring the sexualised images used in public places and on 1 and (b) Level 2 in each year since 2001; and if he will television, the internet, music videos, magazines, newspapers make a statement. [94967] and other places more into line with what parents find acceptable and to make public spaces more family-friendly. Mr Gibb: The information requested for the years. We plan to consult later this spring on proposals to 2005/06 onwards can be found in the following table. reform and modernise the legislation governing the Figures for earlier years can be provided only at a employment of children as actors and models. disproportionate cost.

Number and percentage of pupils1,2,3 not achieving level 14 or level 25 in English (functional English) in Peterborough constituency6, east of England region7 and England8. Years: 2005/06 to 2009/10 Number of pupils not Number of eligible Number of pupils not Percentage of pupils achieving level Percentage of pupils pupils achieving level 1 not achieving level 1 2 not achieving level 2

2005/06 Peterborough 1.356 142 10.5 600 44.2 East of England 65,367 3,556 5.4 25,836 39.5 England 592,485 37,185 6.3 247,638 41.8 2006/07 Peterborough 1,424 151 10.6 649 45.6 East of England 66,073 3,499 5.3 25,210 36.2 England 598,767 33,775 5.6 236,129 39.4 2007/08 Peterborough 1,341 127 9.5 609 45.4 East of England 66,294 3,271 4.9 23,854 36.0 England 595,806 29,738 5.0 217,603 36.5 2008/09 Peterborough 1,409 146 10.4 612 43.4 East of England 65,171 2,755 4.2 22,321 34.2 England 576,420 24,673 4.3 198,334 34.4 2009/10 Peterborough 1,366 97 7.1 578 42.3 East of England 65,693 2,433 3:7 19,803 30.1 England 575,970 20,643 3.6 174,706 30.3 1 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 2 Figures include all maintained schools (including CTCs and academies). 3 Pupils at the end of key stage 4 in each academic year. 4 GCSE at grades A*-G. Valid equivalents, along with GCSEs are iGCSEs (2009/10 only), functional skills, key skills and basic skills at level 1. 5 GCSE at grades A*-C Valid equivalents, along with GCSEs are iGCSEs (2009/10 only), functional skills, key skills and basic skills at level 2. 6 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. 7 Regional figures are based on the region of the local authority maintaining the school. 8 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. Source: National Pupil Database

Females: Violence Department inform schools about the Home Office teen abuse campaign work; and via what mechanisms Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department is directly contacting people Education what mechanisms his Department has put in workingwith young people in (a) care settings, (b) place to contact schools directly to inform them of youth settings and (c) pupil referral units on inter-ministerial work on addressing violence against addressing violence against women and girls; and if he women and girls; by what direct mechanisms his will make a statement. [95546] 769W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 770W

Tim Loughton: The Department is highlighting the life saving assistance, including emergency medical services Home Office teen abuse campaign work via Twitter and and supplies; basic food rations sufficient for over 20,000 Facebook as we often do with cross-governmental people; essential household items for up to 5,500 people; campaigns of interest to our followers. However the and access to safe drinking water for over 30,000 people Department has also made a commitment to reduce through the restoration of damaged water and sanitation burdens on schools, including pupil referral units. As a infrastructure. result we no longer routinely contact them directly. For care settings we have regular newsletters for the children’s Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State homes sector, Children in Care Councils and Independent for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Reviewing Officers providing an opportunity to inform assessment he has made of the political situation in them about addressing violence against women and Syria. [95025] girls. For youth settings, we are in close contact with organisations that work directly with young people. As the Minister responsible for Violence Against Women Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and and Girls (VAWG), I regularly communicate directly Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member with children and young people through, for example, for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has repeatedly made regular meetings with both looked after children and clear his condemnation of the Syrian regime’s use of care leavers. violence and repression against its own people. President Assad and the Syrian regime must heed the call of the Young People: Unemployment international community and allow a peaceful political transition to a more open political system. President Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Assad and those around him should be under no doubt Education what estimate he has made of the that we will continue to support the Syrian people in proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds not in education, their aspiration for a peaceful political transition in employment and training who have the necessary skills Syria. to start an apprenticeship; and if he will make a On 17 February the UN General Assembly voted statement. [94415] overwhelmingly to back the Arab League’s plan for a Mr Hayes: There are no common or mandatory entry Syrian-led solution to the crisis. The resolution, which requirements for apprenticeships. Entry requirements explicitly endorsed the Arab League Plan of 2 November are determined by the issuing authority and are set out as well as its decisions on 22 January and 12 February, in each apprenticeships framework. As they vary depending was co-sponsored by 72 countries and supported by 137 on the occupational role, level and industry sector, members of the Assembly. It sent a clear signal of the assessment of the required skills is made on an individual international community’s condemnation of the Syrian basis. regime’s actions and intention to hold to account those responsible for the ongoing atrocities. The message was There is strong demand for apprenticeships and unambiguous: the violence must stop immediately. employers will rightly take the best candidate for their vacancy.To help young people develop wider employability skills and give them the chance to demonstrate to Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State prospective employers their commitment to work and for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has study to the standards required to complete an any plans to visit Syria. [95026] apprenticeship, the Government introduced Access to Apprenticeships. This new pathway complements wider Alistair Burt: Neither the Secretary of State for Foreign programmes of support set out in the ‘Building and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Engagement, Building Futures: Our Strategy to Maximise Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), nor I have the Participation of 16-24 Year Olds in Education, any current plans to visit Syria. Training and Work’ which was published in December 2011. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has had any discussions with his counterpart in Syria on FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ending the violence in that country; and if he will make a statement. [95027] Syria

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member UK is providing support to people in Syria protesting for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), last discussed the against the Syrian Government. [95024] situation in Syria with his counterpart, Syrian Foreign Minister Muallem on 27 April 2011. The Secretary of Alistair Burt: The Department for International State called for an end to violence and for the Syrians to Development is providing support to humanitarian agencies respond to the legitimate grievances of the Syrian people. operating in Syria who are working to address the needs The Secretary of State continues to make clear publically, of tens of thousands of civilians affected by the ongoing most recently in a statement on 17 February 2012, that violence. the violence in Syria must stop immediately. £2 million of additional UK funding was announced FCO officials regularly raise the need for the violence by the Prime Minister at the UK/France summit on to stop with the Syrian authorities in Damascus and 17 February. This will help contribute towards providing with the Syrian ambassador in London. 771W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 772W

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State A copy of Tables 1 and 2 has been placed in the House of for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what sanctions Commons Library. he has placed on Syria. [95028] Alcohol-related death figures for the UK, England and Wales, and Regions in England, for 1991 to 2010 are available on the Alistair Burt: The British Government has led the ONS website at the following link: way in introducing European Union measures against www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- the Syrian regime, including against President Assad releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-29395 since May 2011. In 11 rounds of sanctions, the latest on More detailed figures for Scotland are available from National 23 January, the EU has subjected a total of 108 individuals Records of Scotland here: and 38 entities to asset freezes and travel bans. These www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/theme/vital-events/deaths/ are targeted against those supporting, or benefitting alcohol-related/tables.html from, the regime, and those associated with them. Figures for Northern Ireland are published by the Northern Other EU measures against Syria include: an arms Ireland Statistics and Research Agency and are available here: embargo; a ban on the import of Syrian oil into the EU www.nisra.gov.uk/archive/demography/publications/ and any new investment in the Syria oil industry; a ban alcohol_deaths/Alcohol_Tables_10.xls on EU investment/construction of new power stations Box 1: National Statistics definition of alcohol-related deaths in Syria and of member states offering long term, International Classification of Diseases, Tenth public or private, financial support for trade; and an Revision (ICD-10) codes embargo on exports of Syrian banknotes and coinage F10 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol from the EU to the Central Bank of Syria. G31.2 Degeneration of nervous system due to alcohol With France and Germany, we are pushing for a G62.1 Alcoholic polyneuropathy further round of tough EU sanctions on Syria this I42.6 Alcoholic cardiomyopathy month, which is aimed at increasing the economic and K29.2 Alcoholic gastritis financial pressure on the Assad regime. K70 Alcoholic liver disease EU sanctions are designed to put pressure on President K73 Chronic hepatitis, not elsewhere classified Assad and those around him to reject the use of violence K74 Fibrosis and cirrhosis of liver (Excluding K74.3-K74.5— and embrace genuine reform. Biliary cirrhosis) K86.0 Alcohol induced chronic pancreatitis X45 Accidental poisoning by and exposure to alcohol CABINET OFFICE X65 Intentional self-poisoning by and exposure to alcohol Y15 Poisoning by and exposure to alcohol, undetermined Deaths: Alcoholic Drinks intent

Ms Abbott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Public Sector: Redundancy Office how many (1) alcohol-related deaths there were in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011 in each (i) parliamentary Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the constituency and (ii) local authority area; [95550] Cabinet Office (1) what recent discussions he has had (2) alcohol-related deaths of people under the age of with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the projected 18 years there were in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011 in each (i) number of redundancies in the public sector to parliamentary constituency and (ii) local authority 2016-17; [94904] area. [95551] (2) what recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on pay in the civil service Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the up to 2014-15. [95572] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Maude: As has been the case under successive Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2012: Administrations, the Government do not release details As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I of internal meetings, so as not to impede Ministers’ have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: ability to hold free and frank discussions on matters of 1. How many alcohol-related deaths there were in (a) 2010 and policy. (b) 2011 in each (i) parliamentary constituency and (ii) local authority area. [95550] 2. How many alcohol-related deaths of people under the age of DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER 18 years there were in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011 in each (i) parliamentary Departmental Air Travel constituency and (ii) local authority area. [95551] Alcohol-related deaths are reported consistently across the Mr Crausby: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister on United Kingdom using an agreed National Statistics definition. what occasions he has taken flights within the UK on Tables 1 and 2 provide the number of deaths with an alcohol-related official business since August 2010; what class of travel underlying cause in the United Kingdom for each parliamentary constituency and local authority area, respectively, for 2010 (the he used; and who accompanied him on each such latest year available). The National Statistics definition of alcohol- flight. [94799] related deaths only includes those causes regarded as being most directly due to alcohol consumption, as shown in Box 1 below. The Deputy Prime Minister: I, and any officials accompanying me on official business, travel making There were two deaths with an alcohol-related underlying cause in persons aged under 18 years in the United Kingdom in the most efficient and cost-effective arrangements. My 2010. Due to the small number of deaths, we are not able to travel arrangements are in accordance with the provide the names of the parliamentary constituencies or local arrangements for official travel as set out in the Ministerial authorities in which these persons were resident. Code. 773W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 774W

DEFENCE quarter living, and separation from family. Personnel who are judged by a psychiatrist to be temperamentally Afghanistan: Armoured Fighting Vehicles unsuited will be administratively discharged. Administrative discharge from the armed forces can Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for take place for a wide variety of reasons, and it is not Defence how many armoured fighting vehicles by type possible to determine the number of officers and soldiers will be returned to the UK from Afghanistan; and what who were discharged as being temperamentally unsuited the cost to the public purse will be. [95357] without undertaking a manual review of all administrative discharge records for the last 10 years. Nick Harvey: No decision has yet been taken as to whether those armoured fighting vehicles (including medium and heavy protected patrol vehicles and tactical Armed Forces: Mental Health Services support vehicles such as Mastiff, Husky, Ridgback, Wolfhound, Warthog and Buffalo) procured under the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for urgent operational requirements process (to meet specific Defence what assessment he has made of the use of threats in Afghanistan) will be retained or disposed of. mindfulness-based techniques in the US for returning If retained, no decision has yet been taken on type or veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. [95063] number of vehicles (with the detailed planning the subject of future departmental annual planning rounds) Mr Robathan: Mindfulness-based cognitive techniques and, if to be disposed of, the method of the disposal have a range of forms and applications, including (which can include sales and gifting to the host nation) educational (in developing effective thinking processes) is unknown at this time. The cost to the public purse and medical (in treating some mental health conditions). cannot be estimated until these decisions are taken. Specifically, mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (MBCT) With regards to those armoured fighting vehicles is recognised by the UK National Institute for Health deployed in Afghanistan from the Army’s core equipment and Clinical Excellence (NICE) as effective for the fleet (including the Warrior Armoured Infantry Fighting treatment of mental health disorders such as recurrent Vehicle, Trojan Armoured Engineer Vehicle, Challenger depression. Armoured Repair and Recovery Vehicle, Combat Vehicle In assessing the possible effectiveness of MBCT for Reconnaissance (Tracked) and the Multiple Launch UK military patients, we would certainly take into Rocket System), these vehicles will be returned to the account the experience of other nations. In this context, UK although the cost of returning them and their in 2011, a new collaborative UK/US taskforce was set subsequent refurbishment is still to be determined. up to share best medical and rehabilitation practice, with four working groups being established to take this Afghanistan: Medals work forward. The second of these has a specific focus on mental health care issues, and comparison between Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the different techniques employed by the two countries Defence what estimate he has made of the number of will form an important part of its work. personnel who have served on deployments to Afghanistan who will not qualify for the diamond Armed Forces: Training jubilee medal. [95569] Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan [holding answer 20 February 2012]: I Defence pursuant to the answer of 7 November 2011, have made no such assessment. Service personnel who Official Report, column 79W, on armed forces: young deployed to Afghanistan are eligible to receive the people, if he will consider reviewing the guidelines operational service medal. The Queen’s diamond jubilee governing the use of live weapons during phase one medal is a commemorative medal and is awarded to all and phase two training. [95565] members of the armed forces who have served for five years or more and were in service on 6 February 2012, regardless of whether they have undertaken an operational Mr Robathan [holding answer 20 February 2012]: We deployment. are confident that the current policy on live weapons training and the safeguards in place to protect our Armed Forces: Dismissal personnel are robust and have no plans to review them. While it is clear that there are risks associated Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with the use of weapons in training, the handling and how many (a) officers and (b) soldiers were understanding of each individual of the responsibilities discharged as being temperamentally unsuited to for weapon security and safety are vital elements of service life from each of three single services in each of initial training. the last 10 years. [95383] Departmental Manpower Mr Robathan: The information is not held in the format requested and could be provided only at a Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for disproportionate cost. Defence how many civil servants his Department The term “temperamentally unsuited to service life” employed in (a) May 2005, (b) May 2010 and (c) is applied to those service personnel who, despite December 2010. [91052] considerable efforts to resolve difficulties, cannot adapt to the basic but unique demands of service life, such as Mr Robathan [holding answer 20 January 2012]: The toleration of discipline, both self and military, close information requested is as follows: 775W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 776W

Full-time equivalent Ministry of Defence Police: Manpower Number of civil servants

May 2005 108,300 Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2010 85,640 Defence when his Department expects to reach a final December 2010 83,770 decision on the future number of Ministry of Defence Notes: police officers at each Ministry of Defence site. [95078] 1. All totals have been rounded to the nearest 10 and show full-time equivalents. Mr Robathan: The final decision on the number of 2. Total includes personnel in MOD main top level budgets, trading Ministry of Defence (MOD) police officers at each site funds, Royal Fleet Auxiliary and locally engaged civilians. will be made after consultation with the relevant staff 3. LEC data is updated quarterly. May 2005 total includes LEC numbers at April 2005. May 2010 total includes LEC numbers at associations about the implementation of changes to April 2010. December 2010 total includes LEC numbers at October our future requirement for MOD police services and 2010. capabilities. We expect this consultation to take place Source: during 2012. DASA (Quad Service) The Government have announced a reduction of MOD Abbey Wood about 32,000 full-time equivalent civilian posts by 2020. This planned reduction is based on the April 2010 total Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of 85,850 full-time equivalent employees and equates to how many permissions have been applied for by some 38% of the civilian workforce. individuals working at MOD Abbey Wood to move to work in the private defence sector in the last 18 months; Gurkhas: Pensions and if he will make a statement. [87726]

Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan: This information is not held in the Defence how many former Gurkha soldiers are not in format requested. I also refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 12 January 2012, Official Report, receipt of an army pension. [95080] column 422W.

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence does not NATO hold the current details of former Gurkhas, or any other soldiers, who do not have an Army pension. Serving Gurkhas are now part of the Armed Forces Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Pension Scheme and will qualify for pensions in the Defence what discussions he has had with his NATO same way as all other armed forces personnel. counterparts on the pooling of maritime patrol aircraft. [95362]

Ministry of Defence Police: Finance Nick Harvey: The pooling and sharing of maritime patrol aircraft is one of a number of projects within Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for NATO’s wider Smart Defence Initiative which was Defence what representations he has received on his considered at the recent meeting of NATO Defence decision to approve the PR11 options which resulted in Ministers. The UK is not currently planning to participate a reduction in the budget of the Ministry of Defence in this project. Police; and what assessment he has made of these representations. [95066] Nuclear Weapons: Security

Mr Robathan: As part of the consultation process Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for on the PR11 options that relate to the Ministry of Defence whether his Department is undertaking any Defence Police, I have met personally with the review of arrangements for the security or protection chairman of the Defence Police Federation on a number of defence nuclear materials. [95071] of occasions to discuss changes to the Department’s future requirement for civil policing services and capabilities. Peter Luff: Our nuclear security arrangements are The views of the Defence Police Federation will be kept under continual review and frequently tested. We taken into account during the implementation of these do not comment on the detailed arrangements for the changes. security or protection of defence nuclear materials.

Gemma Doyle: To ask the Secretary of State for RAF Staxton Wold Defence what estimate he has made of the effect on the total number of officers of the proposal to reduce the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministry of Defence police budget by up to 50 per cent. Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the costs [95079] of the upgrade of the radar at Staxton Wold radar station; and who will meet the costs of the upgrade; Mr Robathan: Possible options to adjust our future [95418] requirement for Ministry of Defence police (MOD) (2) what assessment he has made of the potential services and capabilities are still being considered. Final effect of any proposed wind farm developments on the decisions have not yet been taken about the future operation of radar at Staxton Wold radar station; and budget of the MOD police. if he will make a statement. [95424] 777W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 778W

Peter Luff: Trials carried out in 2004 and 2005 concluded COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT that wind turbines in line of sight to radars cause significant impact to military operations. Coastal Communities Fund All proposed wind turbine developments undergo detailed technical assessments. Any found to affect the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for radar at Staxton Wold would be objected to unless Communities and Local Government what suitable mitigation measures were proposed by the methodology his Department used to determine the developer. amount of funding for each constituent part of the UK in the Coastal Communities Fund. [95462] The cost of any mitigation falls to the developers. The MOD assessed and agreed to the proposal made by developers in 2011 to fund the replacement of the Grant Shapps: The amount of money made available existing T102 Air Defence radar at Staxton Wold with a to each country, or part of a country, under the new TPS77, which performs significantly better in the presence Fund has been set at 50% of the gross revenues raised of wind farms. by the Crown Estate’s marine activities in that area. For 2012, the funding is based on the Crown Estate’s marine revenues in 2010-11 and will be distributed to each Royal Army Medical Corps: Dismissal country as follows:

Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence £ million how many medical officers in the Royal Army Medical Total Crown Estate 50% of Crown Estate Corps were discharged as being temperamentally 2010-11 marine revenues marine revenues unsuited to service life in each of the last 10 years. England 36.4 18.2 [95384]

Mr Robathan: The information is not held in the Scotland format requested and could be provided only at Highlands and 3.7 1.85 disproportionate cost. Islands The term ″temperamentally unsuited to service life″ Rest of Scotland 4.1 2.05 is applied to those service personnel who, despite considerable efforts to resolve difficulties, cannot adapt Wales 2.3 1.15 to the basic but unique demands of service life, such as N. Ireland 0.9 0.45 toleration of discipline, both self and military, close Total 47.4 23.7 quarter living, and separation from family. The amount of money made available in future years Personnel who are judged by a psychiatrist to be will continue to be linked to the marine revenues generated temperamentally unsuited will be administratively by the Crown Estate; the size of the fund in 2013-14 will discharged. be based on 2011-12 receipts and we will announce the Administrative discharge from the armed forces can funding available for 2013-14 later this year. take place for a wide variety of reasons, and it is not possible to determine the number of officers and soldiers Housing Associations in the Royal Army Medical Corps who were discharged as being temperamentally unsuited without undertaking Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for a manual review of all administrative discharge records Communities and Local Government what measures for the last 10 years. his Department has put in place to enable (a) local authorities and (b) tenants to hold housing Royal Army Medical Corps: Manpower associations to account. [94674]

Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Grant Shapps: As private providers of social housing, (1) how many medical officers recruited into the Royal housing associations are regulated by the Social Housing Army Medical Corps through the medical cadetship Regulator against its standards framework. scheme left the armed forces before the end of their six As part of our reform of social housing regulation, years return of service in each of the last 10 years; we want to see more scrutiny of performance and the [95392] best place for this to be done is at local level with social (2) what estimate he has made of the average length landlords challenged about performance and held to of service of medical officers in the Royal Army account by their tenants for the delivery of high quality, Medical Corps who were recruited through the medical cost effective services. cadetship scheme; and whether the average length of To deliver this, we have directed the Social Housing service of such medical officers has fallen or risen in Regulator to issue a revised Tenant Involvement and the last five years. [95393] Empowerment Standard that requires landlords to offer tenants opportunities to get involved in the scrutiny of Mr Robathan: The information is not held in the landlords’ performance, and to influence housing related format requested and could be provided only at policies and priorities. As part of the standard, on disproportionate cost. which the regulator is currently consulting, landlords It is not possible to determine the length of service must also support the formation and activities of tenant for officers who were recruited through the medical panels, and provide timely and relevant performance cadetship scheme without undertaking a manual review information to support scrutiny, including publishing of individual records for the last 10 years. an annual report to tenants. 779W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 780W

To further support this local scrutiny role, we are buy to let mortgage lenders who prohibit tenancies funding the National Community Resource Centre to with housing benefit claimants in their lending terms deliver residential training for tenants wishing to set up and conditions; and if he will make a statement. tenant panels, and I am challenging the housing association [95146] sector to follow Government’s lead in publishing details of expenditure of over £500, so that tenants can see Andrew Stunell: We do not collect data on the number how their rent is being spent. or proportion of buy to let mortgage lenders whose terms and conditions prohibit the letting of a property Additionally, through the Localism Act 2011 we are to a housing benefit claimant. ensuring that social housing regulation is focused on the economic performance of the sector and emphasising Buy to let has provided choice and affordable the primacy of the landlord and tenant relationship. accommodation in the private rented sector, and makes From April 2013, democratically elected local councillors, an important contribution to meeting people’s housing MPs and designated tenant panels will have a formal needs. Many new landlords have entered the market role as the first port of call for resolving complaints. By over recent years using buy to let mortgages, which now giving tenant panels and local representatives the power account for around 10% of all new gross mortgage to resolve complaints at the local level this will provide lending. speedy and effective redress where tenants receive a Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for poor service. Communities and Local Government if he will hold Housing Benefit discussions with buy to let lenders to urge them to (a) remove any restrictions on housing benefit tenants and Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) change restrictions on lengths of tenancy to Communities and Local Government what recent encourage longer tenancies; and if he will make a representations he has received on the potential statement. [95147] redundancy of local authority housing benefit staff Andrew Stunell: While we are aware that some buy to upon implementation of universal credit. [94494] let mortgage lenders prohibit the letting of properties to housing benefit claimants and restrict the lengths of Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply on behalf of tenancies, these are commercial decisions with which the Department for Work and Pensions. the Government would not seek to intervene. My Department’s governance structure for universal We believe that the private rented sector is doing a credit allows for discussions with all key stakeholders, good job in housing people on benefits, and currently including senior local authority representatives. My estimate that around 30% of households in the sector officials continue to work with colleagues in local authorities are in receipt of housing benefit. We are working to to assess the impacts of introducing universal credit, ensure that the private rented sector continues to thrive including the implications for their existing housing and to offer affordability and choice to those seeking a benefit services. This includes deciding the appropriate home. action to take as we further develop the delivery design and migration strategy for universal credit. Non-domestic Rates: Parking

Housing: Planning Permission Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his policy is Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for on the levying of full business rates on car parking Communities and Local Government with reference to spaces provided by retail businesses for customer use. his reforms of planning and housing targets, what [94500] assessment he has made of the level of additional autonomy given to councils in deciding the scale and Robert Neill: Business rates are a tax on the rental nature of housing developments. [93982] value of non-domestic property. Any factor contributing to the value of non-domestic property is included in the Greg Clark: Planning decisions need to be made by assessment of the rateable value—this includes the people who are democratically accountable and through availability of car parking either within the property or genuine involvement of local people. That is why we in the immediate locality intend to abolish the existing regional strategies outside In this context, supermarkets with car parking spaces London using powers contained in the Localism Act. are likely to have a higher rateable value than one Local plans will be examined by an independent without—and therefore will pay higher business rates. inspector to assess whether they are sound. That will Parish Councils include whether they are justified and effective having regard to evidence of housing need, and if they have Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for proper regard to national policy. Communities and Local Government what his policy is Our Housing Strategy, published in November, sets on making parish and town councils eligible for the (a) out a package of reforms to help provide the homes New Home Bonus and (b) Business Rate Retention needed for communities. Scheme. [95105] Mortgages: Housing Benefit Grant Shapps: Following consultation, the New Homes Bonus final scheme design setting out the mechanism Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for for payment allocations was published on 17 February Communities and Local Government what estimate he 2011. Parish and town councils are not eligible for New has made of the (a) number and (b) proportion of Homes Bonus and we currently have no plans to extend 781W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 782W eligibility to these authorities. However, we expect receiving Andrew Stunell: The current legislative framework authorities (districts, counties and unitary authorities) contains robust safeguards for all private tenants, including to lead a discussion with communities, including parish students. Local authorities have extensive powers to and town councils about their priorities for investment. take action against landlords letting poor quality The Government set out their proposals for business accommodation. We are working closely with them to rates retention on 19 December 2011. These proposals ensure that any barriers to them using those powers are will enable major precepting authorities to retain at lifted. least a proportion of business rates. There are no plans Local authorities have extensive powers under the to enable parish and town councils to be eligible for Housing Act 2004 to help improve the management and such funding. They will continue to be funded through condition of all privately rented properties. In addition a precept on the council tax. to the mandatory licensing of certain high risk Houses We have consulted on proposals to ensure that a in Multiple Occupation, local authorities have the discretion meaningful proportion of the community infrastructure to extend licensing to smaller types of such houses levy collected in an area is passed directly to parishes without having to first seek approval from this Department. and town councils. Parishes would be free to spend their Local authorities also have powers to assess the risks community infrastructure levy income on items which and hazards in privately rented properties using the support development of their area. We are currently Housing Health and Safety Rating System. If a property considering consultation responses. is found to contain serious hazards, the local authority has a duty to take the most appropriate action. This Refuges: Females system provides an important safety net, ensuring that homes are safe. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent assessment his Department has made of the number of available places in women’s refuges; and if he will make HOME DEPARTMENT a statement. [93347] Alcoholic Drinks: Scotland

Grant Shapps [holding answer 8 February 2012]: In Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for the November 2010, the Department published the research Home Department pursuant to the answer of ’Meeting the needs of households at risk of domestic 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 107W, on violence in England’ which mapped and reviewed the alcoholic drinks: Scotland, what discussions she has role of accommodation and support services for households had with Scottish Ministers on the pricing of alcohol at risk of domestic violence in England. and its effect on health. [95159] The research is available on the Department’ s website at: James Brokenshire [holding answer 20 February 2012]: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ Home Office Ministers have not held discussions with domesticviolenceneeds Scottish Ministers on the pricing of alcohol and its and shows that there were 445 accommodation based impact on health. services specifically designed for households at risk of Home Office officials have held discussions with the domestic violence in 2009 (88% of which were women’s Scottish Government and the Scotland Office regarding refuges). 4,035 household places were recorded in over current policy issues. 418 schemes. Cot Deaths The Government’s approach to tackling domestic violence is set out in the “Call to End Violence Against Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Women and Girls Action Plan”. Home Department (1) what assessment she has made As part of this plan, the Home Office is providing of the number of police forces that have implemented £28 million of funding over the spending review period the recommendations of the 2004 Kennedy Report into for specialist domestic and sexual violence services. sudden unexpected death in infancy; [95097] The Ministry of Justice is also using proceeds from (2) if she will bring forward primary legislative the victim surcharge, of up to £3.5 million a year, to give proposals to implement the recommendations of the existing rape crisis centres stable, long-term funding, 2004 Kennedy Report into sudden unexpected death in and to establish new centres where there are gaps in infancy. [95096] provision. Supporting People is the main funding source for the Nick Herbert [holding answer 20 February 2012]: provision of refuge-based domestic violence services; The Kennedy Report does not call for the introduction the Department for Communities and Local Government of primary legislation and I have no plans to legislate in has protected such funding and is providing £6.5 billion this area. of funding for Supporting People over the spending Implementation of the Kennedy Report review. recommendations is a matter for individual police forces. Rented Housing: Students Human Trafficking: Arrests

Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what regulations the Home Department how many arrests were made as protect students from landlords who do not adequately a result of police operations against human trafficking maintain their properties. [93913] in each year since 2004. [95127] 783W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 784W

Damian Green: Data on the number of arrests as a Nick Herbert [holding answer 20 February 2012]: result of police operations against human trafficking Records of replacement police cars that were, (i) UK-built are not collected centrally. Information about arrests is and (ii) foreign-built in the last 12 months are not held collected by offence category rather than individual centrally. offence. Speed Limits: Cameras Members: Correspondence Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of Home Department when the Minister for Policing and 24 January 2012, Official Report, column 149W, on Criminal Justice plans to respond to the letter of speed limits: cameras, what testing is done on speed 7 December 2011 from the hon. Member for Weaver cameras during the type approval process to test their Vale on behalf of Mr Marc Sutton. [95840] reliability through deeply tinted windows. [94764]

Damian Green: I replied to my hon. Friend on Nick Herbert: Type approval testing for speed measuring 21 February 2012. devices does not include tests on their use through glass. All speed measuring devices using laser or radar can be Morton Hall Immigration Removal Centre used through glass, including tinted glass, and any measurement they take will be accurate. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many detainees at Morton Vetting Hall Immigration Removal Centre have been (a) investigated by the police, (b) given a police caution, Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for the (c) charged by the police with committing a criminal Home Department how many records checks the offence, (d) prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Criminal Records Bureau has processed for people Service and (e) convicted of a criminal offence in living in (a) St Helens South and Whiston relation to suspected criminal offences committed by constituency, (b) Merseyside and (c) England in each detainees. [89762] of the last five years; and how many such checks required the applicant to attend fingerprinting to prove Damian Green: The number of detainees held at their identity. [95458] Morton Hall on 30 September 2011, the latest date for which published data is available, was 321. Of these, Lynne Featherstone: This information is not held in 100 had been convicted of a criminal offence. The UK the format requested. In the last five years, the Criminal Border Agency does not routinely hold information on Records Bureau has processed over 19 million certificates. whether or not individuals have been investigated by the Of these, 24,136 fingerprint comparisons have been police, given a police caution or charged by the police conducted. These details are broken down in the table with committing a criminal offence. Information on for each of the last five years from April 2007 to individuals prosecuted by the Crown Prosecution Service present. is not recorded centrally and would require examination of individual records at disproportionate cost. Calendar Fingerprints year Total issued Enhanced Standard provided Police: Olympic Games 2012 2007 3,353,101 3,050,201 302,900 4,522 2008 3,701,293 3,343,025 358,268 5,180 David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 4,198,256 3,848,820 349,436 4,626 the Home Department whether the (a) police and (b) 2010 4,307,690 4,118,568 189,122 6,354 other security personnel of any nation other than the 2011 4,133,408 3,895,248 238,160 3,454 UK will be allowed to carry weapons in the UK during Total 19,693,748 18,255,862 1,437,886 24,136 the London 2012 Olympics. [95121]

Nick Herbert: The Government remains committed to delivering a safe and secure Olympic games in 2012, TREASURY and lead responsibility for this rests with the police who have substantial experience of dealing with public order Arms Trade and security at major events. The rules governing the presence of foreign security Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Chancellor of the and protection teams at the games are the same as at Exchequer which representatives from his Department any time. Requests to carry weapons are referred to the have attended each of the UN Preparatory Committee police and Home Office for consideration. meetings for the International Arms Trade Treaty; and which representatives from his Department will attend Police: Vehicles the meeting in February 2012. [88631]

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Danny Alexander: Neither I nor any of my officials Home Department if she will estimate the number of have attended, or currently plan to attend, any UN replacement (a) general fleet and (b) patrol cars by Preparatory Committee meetings for the International police force that were (i) UK-built and (ii) foreign-built Arms Trade Treaty, as this is a matter for the Foreign in the last 12 months for which figures are available. and Commonwealth Office, the Department for Business [95100] Innovation and Skills and the Ministry of Defence. 785W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 786W

Child Benefit one child, (ii) two, (iii) three, (iv) four, (v) five or (vi) six children; and what proportion of household income Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Chancellor of the such allowances represent. [92970] Exchequer how many households in (a) Poplar and Limehouse constituency, (b) Tower Hamlets and (c) Mr Gauke: The following table has the requested the UK are in receipt of child benefit allowance for (i) information:

Number of families by number of children in family Area123456

Poplar and 16,340 14,275 12,355 1,235 395 145 Limehouse Tower Hamlets 111,900 18,220 14,575 2,320 785 265 UK 13,671,115 12,942,985 1906,310 236,350 58,885 17,410 1 These figures are available from the 2010 National Statistics: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/child_benefit/chb-geog-aug10.xls

These figures were compiled using August 2010 National £280 million per year to allow for possible tax planning and Statistics dataset. approximately £60 million per year for possible non-compliance that may not be detected by compliance checks that apply.” Information on the proportion of household income child benefit represents is not available. Crown Estate Commissioners Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the potential Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer cost to the Exchequer of lost revenue arising from tax in which London boroughs the Crown Estate owns (a) planning following the withdrawal of child benefit land, (b) property and (c) both land and property; from higher rate income taxpayers. [94971] and what information his Department holds on each of these assets. [95389] Mr Gauke: This information can be found on page 14 of the Spending Review 2010 Scorecard available at: Miss Chloe Smith: The following table shows the http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/sr2010_policycostings.pdf London property held by the Crown Estate, as at 31 The relevant paragraph is copied here for reference: December 2011. The Crown Estate does not distinguish “The costing includes assumptions for two behavioural responses: between land and property within its urban estate, nor for the first full year 2013-14 these have an effect of approximately between developed and undeveloped land.

Schedule of the Crown Estate’s properties rights and interests, December, 2011 Classification and area (m2)1 County/unitary authority London borough Estate description Office Retail Other2 Residential Industrial

England Central London City of St James’s (including: 281,500 41,500 30,500 14,000 — Westminster Haymarket, Lower Regent Street and Pall Mall) Kensington and Kensington Palace Gardens — — — 991,000 — Chelsea and Palace Green City of Millbank 18,500 — — — — Westminster Camden New Oxford Street 16,000 — — — — City of Merchant Square Paddington 4,500 — — — — Westminster City of Park Lane 2,000 3,000 2,000 — — Westminster City of Regent’s Park 19,500 500 30,500 TBC 500 Westminster City of Regent Street 108,500 208,500 28,000 5,000 — Westminster Lambeth Stamford Street — — — 42,000 — City of Trafalgar Square and the 6,000 1,500 13,000 — — Westminster Strand City of Whitehall and Victoria 47,000 18,000 — — — Westminster

Greater London Lewisham/ Blackheath and Eltham 1,000 2,500 9,500 3—— Greenwich Sutton Carlsberg, Marlow Way, ——— —7,500 Croydon Richmond upon Hampton — 500 500 — — Thames 787W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 788W

Schedule of the Crown Estate’s properties rights and interests, December, 2011 Classification and area (m2)1 County/unitary authority London borough Estate description Office Retail Other2 Residential Industrial

Hounslow Victory Business Centre, ——— —4,000 Isleworth Richmond upon Richmond and Sudbrook 3,000 — 10,000 — 1,000 Thames Merton Weir Road Industrial Estate, — — — — 10,000 Wimbledon 1 Areas have been rounded to the nearest 500m2. 2 Properties which cannot be classified as being used as office, retail or industrial space. The types of ‘other’ usage includes: clubs, hotels, educational and medical centres car parks, leisure facilities, and palaces (for example, the Palace of Richmond). 3 These estates contain some residential properties. The Blackheath and Eltham estate has 130 residential tenancies. The Richmond and Sudbrook estate has 51 residential tenancies.

This information (excluding the information on London Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the boroughs) is also published in the “Schedule of The Exchequer if he will meet representatives of the All Crown Estate’s properties rights and interests December Party Group on Arch Cru Investment to discuss 2011”, available on the Crown Estate’s website at: investors’ pensions. [94903] www.thecrownestate.co.uk/media/206857/ schedule_of_properties_rights_and_interests.pdf Mr Hoban: I would be pleased to meet the All Party HM Treasury is charged with general oversight of the Group if there are new substantive points that were not Crown Estate’s business, including information about discussed at the Westminster Hall debate of 19 October significant business developments and investment strategy, 2011. and does not hold information on individual properties. Financial Services Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the Crown Estate’s Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the role in promoting (a) the big society, (b) volunteering Exchequer what steps he is taking to encourage and (c) other community and social action businesses in the financial services sector to develop in programmes; and if he will make a statement. [95444] areas other than London and the South East. [86980] Miss Chloe Smith: The Crown Estate is principally a commercial organisation. Under the Crown Estate Act 1961 Mr Hoban: Decisions about the location of financial it is tasked with maintaining and enhancing the value of services activity are commercial matters and are therefore the estate and the return obtained from it not the responsibility of Government. ’but with due regard to the requirements of good management’. However, industry body TheCityUK estimates that The annual surplus income is paid to the Exchequer. two thirds of the 2 million UK financial and professional services employees are based outside of London. The The Crown Estate can only promote volunteering North West of England, for instance, plays host to a and community and social action programmes that are large cluster of financial, accounting, legal and management linked in some way to the properties it manages. Examples consulting firms, which collectively represent 11% of include its Marine Stewardship programme and details the regional economy. on this and other such projects can be found in the Crown Estate’s annual report. Copies are available in Manchester is at the heart of the financial services the House of Commons Library, or at industry in the North West with over 90,000 people www.thecrownestate.co.uk/sustainability employed in the sector, making it the second largest financial centre in the UK. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered allocating profits PAYE: Fines from the Crown Estate’s marine assets directly to devolved Administrations to determine their own Lorely Burt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer spending priorities. [95461] (1) how many complaints HM Revenue and Customs Miss Chloe Smith: The Government have no plans to has received to date from (a) micro, (b) small, (c) hypothecate Crown Estate marine asset profits to devolved medium and (d) large businesses relating to charges for Administrations. late payment of PAYE in the tax year 2010-11; [94945] (2) what the (a) total and (b) average monetary Cru Investment Management value was of fines issued to (i) micro, (ii) small, (iii) medium and (iv) large companies for late payment of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the PAYE in the tax years (A) 2007-08, (B) 2008-09, (C) Exchequer if he will give consideration to holding an 2009-10 and (D) 2010-11; [94946] investigation under section 14 of the Financial Services Markets Act 2000 into the suspension of pension funds (3) how many (a) micro, (b) small, (c) medium and of the 20,000 investors in the Arch Cru Investment (d) large companies received fines for late payment of Fund. [94902] PAYE in the tax years (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09, (iii) 2009-10 and (iv) 2010-11. [94947] Mr Hoban: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave on 6 February 2012, Official Report, column Mr Gauke: The information is not available and 96W. could be researched only at disproportionate cost. 789W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 790W

Peacocks Group Performance related payments awarded to Debt Management staff £ Grade/ Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the financial Grade Exchequer if he will meet the Chief Executive of Royal year 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 total Bank of Scotland to discuss its decisions on Peacocks G6 8,309 1,468 1,310 1,483 12,571 Group. [94973] G7 15,862 8,722 2,215 3,763 30,561 Mr Hoban: The Chancellor of the Exchequer meets T 264 — — — 264 senior members of UK banking institutions on a range SO 37,656 33,341 19,494 16,432 106,923 of issues. As was the case with previous Administrations, HO 67,650 84,610 67,070 39,305 258,635 it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of O 185,395 223,335 193,500 147,092 749,322 all such meetings and discussions. AO 238,745 253,976 242,004 203,312 938,038 AA 40,105 42,922 42,057 34,924 160,009 Revenue and Customs: Incentives Year total 593,985 648,376 567,650 446,311 2,256,322 Data relating years prior to 2007-08 is not available, Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and could be researched only at disproportionate cost. how much was paid in bonuses to HM Revenue and Customs officials working on criminal investigations in Taxpayers (a) each of the last three years and (b) 2011-12 to date; and how much he expects to be paid in the next Rehman Chishti: To ask the Chancellor of the three years. [95542] Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure taxpayers have access to information on how taxes are Mr Gauke: HMRC operates two bonus arrangements, spent. [95004] which apply to staff across the Department: Performance awards tied to the annual performance for delegated Danny Alexander: The vast majority of taxes are not grades (AA—Grade 6) and senior civil servants; and hypothecated to specific expenditure and therefore making A recognition bonus scheme for delegated grades which recognises this connection is not possible. exceptional in year performance. This scheme is not open to The main sources of information on public spending members of the SCS. are the Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) (a) The total value of bonuses paid to those working National Statistics releases published by HM Treasury. in HMRC Criminal Investigation was; All of the recent releases are available on the Treasury For the financial year 2008-09—relating to performance in website at: 2007-08 the value of bonuses paid in criminal investigation was http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_index.htm £379,656. These releases provide a range of breakdowns of spending For the financial year 2009-10—relating to performance in 2008-09 the value of bonuses paid in criminal investigation was in table format. For example, tables include spend by £435,689. Government Department and spend by function of For the financial year 2010-11—relating to performance in 2009-10 government (eg education, policing, defence). Additionally, the value of bonuses paid in criminal investigation was £349,168. as part of the Government’s transparency agenda, a (b) During the current financial year (2011-12) HMRC large amount of further data on public spending has has paid performance awards to the value of £275,326 been published. Each Department publishes details of which relate to performance in 2010-11. The information all items of spending with a value of over £25,000 on relating to recognition bonuses paid in the current their own website. HM Treasury has also published financial year will not be available until the end of this further detailed information from COINS underlying financial year. the PESA releases at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/psr_coins_data.htm For 2012-13 HMRC has a remit for a bonus pot of 0.47% of the AA-Grade 6 pay bill. The overall value of and at bonuses paid to those working in criminal investigation http://data.gov.uk/dataset/coins will be dependent upon the performance of individuals The COINS data also includes the full details of the across the performance year. Beyond 2013 we cannot underlying raw data used to produce the 2009-10 Whole provide any forecasts due to the ongoing wider civil of Government Accounts (WGA). The full audited service reward reform work. WGA for 2009-10 are also available on the Treasury website: Revenue and Customs: Pay http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ psr_government_accounts.htm John Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the maximum value was of end of VAT: Publications year non-consolidated performance-related payments paid to staff in the delegated grades within the Debt Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the Management Office of HM Revenue and Customs in Exchequer what assessment he has made of the each year since 2005. [94809] potential effects on the UK book trade of the reduced rate of VAT on e-books in France and Luxembourg. Mr Gauke: The following table gives details of the [95040] value of performance related pay for staff in Debt Management offices in HM Revenue and Customs Mr Gauke: France and Luxembourg introduced a (HMRC). reduced rate of VAT for e-books on 1 January 2012. 791W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 792W

There has been no assessment on the impact of this on Broadcasting: Welsh Language the UK book trade. However, under existing agreements with our EU partners the UK maintains a zero rate of Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for VAT for books which is not available to other member Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions states. he has had on the inclusion of quotas for the broadcasting of Welsh language programmes in local digital television licences for stations planning to broadcast in Wales. [94663] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Arts: Economic Situation Mr Vaizey: The Government have consulted extensively on their proposals for local television and received a very small number of representations about Welsh language Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for programming in response. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. assessment he has made of the effect of the economic Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), situation on the arts industry. [94652] also attended a local TV summit in Newport in 2011 which included a discussion on Welsh language Mr Vaizey: This Department has not carried out a programming on local TV. formal assessment on the effects of the current economic situation on the arts industry, however, Arts Council Instead of imposing specific quotas on local TV England is monitoring this and has a committed 10-year service providers, the Government are requiring that goal to help the arts sector to survive and continue to local television provides programming that meets the grow by increasing efficiency and innovation. needs of the locality, increases the range of programmes about the locality and caters for the tastes and interests British Sky Broadcasting of people in that locality, so Welsh Language content could fit this very well. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Air Travel Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has any plans to bring forward legislative proposals to remove the retransmission fees paid by public service Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for broadcasters to Sky. [94535] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on what occasions he has taken flights within the UK on official business Mr Vaizey: The question of ’retransmission fees’ paid since August 2010; what class of travel he used; and by public service broadcasters to platforms such as who accompanied him on each such flight. [94800] BSkyB will be considered in the communications review Green Paper to be published early this year. John Penrose: The following table shows the occasions the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Broadband: Brighton and Hove Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), took flights within the UK on Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for official business since August 2010 and if accompanied Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he by a special adviser (SA) or private secretary (PS): has made of the amount of public funding which would be required to bring ultra-fast broadband to the Date Flight Accompanied Brighton and Hove area; and if he will make a 26 August 2010 Heathrow to SA statement. [94717] Edinburgh 28 August 2010 Edinburgh to SA Mr Vaizey: The Department has not made any estimate Heathrow of the amount of public funding required to bring 9 September 2011 Gatwick to Glasgow PS 9 September 2011 Glasgow to Belfast PS ultra-fast broadband to the Brighton and Hove area. City I understand that the East Sussex local broadband 9 September 2011 Belfast City to PS project, which includes Brighton and Hove, is progressing Heathrow well and that a draft plan will be submitted by the end 18 November 2011 Gatwick to Newquay PS of February as required. This area has an indicative Cornwall 18 November 2011 Newquay Cornwall to PS funding of £10.64 million allocated out of the £530 Gatwick million to bring superfast broadband to 90% of the population and standard broadband to everyone else. All flights were economy class. Section 10 of the Ministerial Code provides guidance on travel for Ministers Broadcasting: Press and makes clear that Ministers must ensure that they always make efficient and cost-effective travel arrangements. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions Departmental Internet he has had with (a) Ofcom, (b) Press TV and (c) other bodies on the broadcasting licence for Press TV. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for [94695] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how much his Department spent on maintaining its (a) Twitter feed, Mr Vaizey: None. Broadcast licensing is an operational (b) YouTube channel and (c) Flickr channel in the matter for the independent regulator, Ofcom. latest period for which figures are available; [94649] 793W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 794W

(2) how many people his Department employed to Departmental Procurement maintain its social media and networking sites and at what cost in the latest period for which figures are Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [94650] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what proportion of the total value of contracts issued or to Mr Vaizey: This Department has no staff committed be issued by his Department in 2011-12 have required solely to maintaining social media and networking sites. successful organisations to put up a capital bond; and The sites are supported as part of normal communications if he will make a statement; [94920] work with no more than 10% of a full-time employees’ (2) which contracts his Department has tendered or time spent on this work. In May 2010, we spent £34.35 will tender in 2011-12 which require successful on a flickr pro account (to store additional photos) organisations to have a capital bond of more than which expires in May 2012. £5 million; which contracts have not required such a bond; and if he will make a statement. [94939] Departmental Manpower John Penrose: No contracts issued, or to be issued or Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for tendered by this Department in 2011-12 have required Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) successful organisations to put up a capital bond up to, full-time and (b) part-time employees his Department or exceeding £5 million. had in each year since 1997. [94641] Digital Switchover Help Scheme John Penrose: The information requested from 1999 onwards, is set out in the following table. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he Information prior to this date is not held by the is taking to ensure that groups of people who are Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS). eligible for assistance from the digital television switchover help scheme receive that assistance. [95035] Full-time Part-time Total

1999 374 15 389 Mr Vaizey: The Switchover Help Scheme directly 2000 388 19 407 contacts everyone eligible for help well in advance of switchover in their area to provide them with information 2001 391 22 413 about the scheme and the cost, if any, to the individual. 2002 450 22 472 It also carries out a widespread information campaign, 2003 459 28 487 including advertising on TV, radio, press and buses, a 2004 493 18 511 publicity campaign and through outreach activities with 2005 477 45 522 local authorities, third sector groups, and in the community, 2006 490 42 532 to try to ensure that everyone knows about the help 2007 483 39 522 available to eligible people. 2008 442 41 483 2009 418 35 453 Local Broadcasting: Radio 2010 423 47 470 2011 440 31 471 Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the Totals are full-time equivalents based on the Office regulations are which govern the output of community for National Statistics (ONS) requirements and figures local radio; and what plans he has to review such represent average staff-in-post across the whole year. regulations. [95139] DCMS has recruited additional staff from other government Departments to deliver the London 2012 Mr Vaizey: The statutory framework which sets out Olympics. These are short-term appointments and DCMS the licensing framework for community radio is set out will downsize after the games. in the Community Radio Order 2004, as amended by These figures also reflect a machinery of the Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2010. Full Government change in 2011 which saw a number of details of the licensing process and Ofcom’s regulatory digital economy staff transfer from the Department for regime can be found at: Business, Innovation and Skills, to DCMS. We remain http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/radio-broadcast-licensing/ on track to deliver a 50% reduction in our administration community-radio/ budget by 2013-14. The Department is conducting a number of workshops with the community radio sector throughout February Departmental Press Releases to consider the case for changes to the current legislative frameworks. In addition, the future role of community radio will be a consideration in the forthcoming Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for communications review. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many press releases his Department issued in the last 12 months. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for [94640] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has any plans to review the limit of the broadcasting radius John Penrose: The Department issued 129 press releases for community local radio; and if he will make a in 2011, all of which are available on our website. statement. [95140] 795W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 796W

Mr Vaizey: Ofcom is responsible for determining the Tourism coverage areas for community radio stations and consulted the sector on this issue in 2004. At this time we are not Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for aware that Ofcom have any plans to review their current Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what estimate policy on the broadcasting radius for community radio he has made of the number of (a) UK and (b) stations. overseas tourists who visited (i) Bexleyheath and Mobile Phones Crayford constituency and (ii) the London borough of Bexley in the last five years; [94713] Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent people employed in the tourism industry in the London assessment he has made of the potential benefits to borough of Bexley in the last three years for which consumers of lower mobile data roaming charges in figures are available. [94714] Europe; what his policy is on the European Commission’s proposal for regulation in this area; and John Penrose: The Department does not record this if he will make a statement. [94712] specific information, but VisitEngland’s Great Britain Tourism Survey for 2008-10, reports that the London Mr Vaizey: The Department has made no specific borough of Bexley attracted an average of 259,000 assessment of the benefits to consumers of lower mobile domestic visits annually, available at: data roaming charges in Europe, although we remain actively engaged with stakeholders on the matter. We http://www.visitengland.org/insight-statistics/major-tourism- surveys/overnightvisitors/UKTS2010/ are considering various proposals put forward on price LA_County_2006_2010.aspx caps for retail costs for mobile data roaming in the European Union. These include the initial Commission Details of visits are not collated at constituency level. proposals; revised proposals from the European Parliament Through the International Passenger Survey, the Office and advice submitted by the European Regulators for for National Statistics (ONS) record the number of Electronic Communications (BEREC). visits made by overseas residents to London in each of The principles that guide our negotiating position on the last five years. The ONS do not provide this information both the wholesale and the retail price capping (and by London borough or constituency but the data can be thus the margin between the two) for voice and data found at: roaming, remain that we wish to see price caps set at http://www.visitbritain.org/insightsandstatistics/ values that will continue to reduce roaming costs for inboundvisitorstatistics/regions/towns.aspx consumers but at the same time provide sufficient incentive and is also summarised in the following table. for new players to enter the market, therefore providing London a sustainable competitive market place. Visits (Thousand) Museums and Galleries 2006 15,593 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 15,340 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many times 2008 14,753 (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department visited the 2009 14,211 (i) British Museum, (ii) Natural History Museum and 2010 14,706 (iii) Science Museum in an official capacity in the last In 2010, VisitBritain published a study by Deloitte year. [94635] about the economic contribution of the visitor economy. Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Within the study they provide the number of employees Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for in the visitor economy by nation, the top 10 areas by South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), visited the British museum volume of employees, and the top 50 districts with the twice and the Natural History museum once in the last highest share of employees by percentage. However, year in an official capacity. As the Minister for Culture, they do not provide this information for the London Communications and Creative Industries, I visited the borough of Bexley. Full details can be found at: British Museum eight times, and the Natural History http://www.visitbritain.org/Images/Economic%20 museum and the Science museum one time each in the case%20for%20the%20Visitor%20Economy%20- last year in an official capacity. %20Phase%202%20-%2026%20July%202010%20- %20FINAL_tcm29-14561.pdf S4C

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he plans to INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT bring forward proposals relating to the management Overseas Aid: Animal Welfare structure of S4C under the terms of the Public Bodies Act 2011. [94678] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Vaizey: This Department opened a public for International Development what steps his consultation on 1 February on proposals to amend Department is taking to promote animal health in (a) S4C’s governance arrangements. The consultation is Africa, (b) India and (c) South America. [94453] open until 4 May 2012 and the Government look forward to considering all responses. Progress on the reform of Mr O’Brien: The Department for International S4C governance after then will depend on the outcome Development’s (DFID) research programmes are of the consultation. developing new diagnostic tests, medications and vaccines 797W Written Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 798W to combat a range of animal diseases which can have (b) DFID works closely with the Bill and Melinda Gates major economic impacts in Africa and South Asia and Foundation to produce effective vaccines. More than 170,000 are applicable both at regional and global level. For cattle have been vaccinated against East Coast Fever disease in example, Africa, while eight field pilot trials with improved Newcastle vaccine for poultry are under way in Africa and India. (a) In collaboration with the UK Research Councils, DFID is already contributing to improved field control of animal DFID’s programmes also support partnerships with trypanosomosis in Africa by using a new tool to aid accurate local manufacturers and distributors in Africa and Asia dosage of medication and improved diagnosis of parasites in to promote animal health and ensure wider uptake of goats and sheep in India. animal vaccines in rural areas. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 21 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 723 HEALTH—continued Cancer Care ...... 733 NHS Reorganisation...... 725 Dementia Care...... 735 Patient Outcomes...... 731 Health and Social Care Bill...... 734 PFI Debt (NHS Hospitals) ...... 723 Health and Social Care Bill...... 736 PFI Schemes ...... 735 Hospital Management ...... 728 Private Health Care...... 726 NHS Allergy Services...... 730 Topical Questions ...... 737 NHS Constitution...... 729 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 21 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 72WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Integration ...... 72WS continued Review of Consular Evacuation Procedures...... 74WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL JUSTICE...... 76WS AFFAIRS...... 73WS Ministerial Council on Deaths in Custody ...... 76WS Farming Regulation Task Force Report...... 73WS TREASURY ...... 71WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 73WS Air Passenger Duty (Northern Ireland)...... 71WS Afghanistan ...... 73WS Landfill Tax (Scotland) ...... 71WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 21 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 5P TRANSPORT ...... 6P Potential Closure of Peacocks Stores ...... 5P Bradford-on-Avon Station Ticket Office ...... 6P Swindon Town Centre...... 5P Bus Services in Sedgefield ...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 20 February 2012—[Continued.]

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 719W EDUCATION—continued 16-19 Bursary Fund ...... 719W Young People: Voluntary Work...... 737W Academies...... 719W Youth Services: Expenditure ...... 737W Academies: Sixth Form Education...... 720W Children: Protection...... 720W HEALTH...... 669W Children: Social Services...... 721W Accidents: Cycling ...... 669W Departmental Food...... 721W Alexandra Hospital: Redditch...... 670W Departmental Procurement...... 722W Ambulance Services: Emergency Calls ...... 670W Dominic Cummings...... 722W Antenatal Care...... 671W Education: Pilot Schemes...... 722W Aortic Aneurysm ...... 671W Females: Violence ...... 723W Avian Influenza...... 672W Free Schools...... 723W Benzodiazepines...... 672W Local Authorities: Children ...... 723W Breasts: Plastic Surgery...... 673W Primary Education: Standards...... 724W Cancer: Health Education...... 674W Pupil Exclusions...... 724W Cancer: Radiotherapy ...... 675W Pupil Exclusions: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 724W Cancer: Republic of Ireland...... 675W Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 727W Care Homes: Dartford ...... 676W School Leaving...... 727W Care Quality Commission...... 676W Schools: Armed Forces ...... 728W Cervical Cancer: East of England...... 677W Schools: Rossendale...... 729W Chlamydia Infection: Screening ...... 678W Science: GCSE ...... 730W Contraceptives ...... 679W Sixth Form Education: Assessments ...... 735W Dance Movement Therapy...... 679W Special Educational Needs...... 736W Dental Health ...... 680W Young People: Unemployment...... 736W Dental Services ...... 680W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued HEALTH—continued Dental Services: Cumbria ...... 681W Pregnancy ...... 712W Departmental Manpower...... 681W Primary Care Trusts: Finance ...... 712W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 681W Primary Care Trusts: Redundancy Pay...... 713W Departmental Procurement...... 681W Private Patients: Health Insurance ...... 713W Doctors: Pay ...... 682W Ritalin...... 714W Eating Disorders ...... 682W Social Services: Registration...... 714W Food Standards Agency: Expenditure...... 683W Suicide ...... 716W Genito-urinary Medicine ...... 685W Surgery...... 716W Health...... 686W Surgery: Medical Equipment ...... 718W Health Services: Cumbria ...... 686W Tuberculosis...... 719W Health Services: Foreign Nationals ...... 688W Health Services: Greater London...... 688W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 647W Health Services: Scotland...... 688W Atos Healthcare...... 647W Health Visitors: Manpower...... 689W Carer’s Allowance ...... 648W Hospices: Finance...... 689W Child Support Agency ...... 648W Hospitals: Cleaning Services ...... 689W Children: Day Care ...... 650W Hospitals: Food ...... 690W Cold Weather Payments ...... 651W Hospitals: Private Finance Initiative ...... 690W Council Tax ...... 651W Hull and East Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust: Departmental Food...... 652W Overseas Visitors...... 691W Disability Living Allowance...... 653W Incontinence ...... 692W Employment and Support Allowance: Work Information Centre for Health and Social Care ..... 692W Capability Assessment ...... 653W Innovation ...... 693W Employment Schemes ...... 655W IVF ...... 693W Employment Schemes: Down’s Syndrome...... 656W Learning Disability: Advocacy...... 694W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 656W Malaria ...... 694W Housing Benefit ...... 657W Maternity Services: Expenditure ...... 695W Housing Benefit: Armed Forces ...... 659W Mental Illness: Drugs...... 698W Housing Benefit: Scotland ...... 659W Midwives...... 701W Independent Living Fund ...... 659W Midwives: Manpower...... 701W Industrial Health and Safety: Methanol...... 660W Midwives: Training ...... 702W Members: Correspondence ...... 660W Neurology ...... 702W New Deal Schemes...... 660W NHS: Ancillary Staff...... 703W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 660W NHS: Crimes of Violence...... 703W Pension Protection Fund: Wedgwood Museum...... 661W NHS: Negligence ...... 704W Social Security Benefits...... 661W NHS: Private Sector...... 705W Social Security Benefits: Liverpool...... 663W NHS: Reorganisation...... 706W Social Services...... 663W NHS Shared Business Services...... 703W Unemployment Benefits: Territorial Army...... 663W Nurses: Schools...... 707W Unemployment: Young People...... 664W Obesity...... 707W Universal Credit...... 664W Organs: Donors ...... 708W Welfare Reform Bill ...... 664W Osteoporosis: Surgery ...... 709W Work Capability Assessment...... 665W Out of Area Treatment: Scotland...... 710W Work Capability Assessment: Parkinson’s Disease . 667W Palliative Care: Costs ...... 710W Work Capability Assessments: Audio Recordings .. 668W Palliative Care: Standards ...... 711W Work Programme...... 668W Pharmacy...... 711W Work Programme: Employment and Support Physiotherapy: Finance...... 712W Allowance ...... 669W WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 21 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 751W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Apprentices...... 751W Overseas Trade: Middle East...... 758W Apprentices: Nuclear Power...... 752W Student Loans Company: Pay...... 758W Business ...... 753W Supermarkets: Competition ...... 758W Business: Finance...... 753W Business: Government Assistance ...... 753W CABINET OFFICE...... 771W Climate Change ...... 753W Deaths: Alcoholic Drinks...... 771W Copyright: Arts...... 754W Public Sector: Redundancy ...... 772W Copyright: Economic Growth...... 754W Food: Industry ...... 755W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 778W Free School Meals...... 755W Coastal Communities Fund ...... 778W Gender: Equality...... 755W Housing Associations...... 778W Higher Education...... 755W Housing Benefit ...... 779W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 756W Housing: Planning Permission ...... 779W Overseas Students: Saudi Arabia ...... 756W Mortgages: Housing Benefit ...... 779W Overseas Trade...... 756W Non-domestic Rates: Parking ...... 780W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— HEALTH—continued continued Health Inequalities...... 759W Parish Councils ...... 780W NHS Dentistry...... 759W Refuges: Females ...... 781W NHS Foundation Trusts: North East ...... 762W Rented Housing: Students...... 781W NHS Hospitals: Debt...... 759W NHS: Interpreters ...... 762W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 791W Nurses: Manpower...... 762W Arts: Economic Situation...... 791W Patient Demand ...... 760W British Sky Broadcasting...... 791W Patient Outcomes...... 759W Broadband: Brighton and Hove...... 791W Pharmacy...... 763W Broadcasting: Press ...... 791W Private Health Care...... 760W Broadcasting: Welsh Language ...... 792W Referral Management System: Coventry...... 763W Departmental Air Travel ...... 792W Services: Older People...... 760W Departmental Internet ...... 792W Sunbeds: Safety...... 763W Departmental Manpower...... 793W Departmental Press Releases...... 793W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 782W Departmental Procurement...... 794W Alcoholic Drinks: Scotland...... 782W Digital Switchover Help Scheme...... 794W Cot Deaths...... 782W Local Broadcasting: Radio...... 794W Human Trafficking: Arrests ...... 782W Mobile Phones ...... 795W Members: Correspondence ...... 783W Museums and Galleries...... 795W Morton Hall Immigration Removal Centre...... 783W S4C ...... 795W Police: Olympic Games 2012...... 783W Tourism...... 796W Police: Vehicles...... 783W Speed Limits: Cameras...... 784W DEFENCE...... 773W Vetting ...... 784W Afghanistan: Armoured Fighting Vehicles...... 773W Afghanistan: Medals...... 773W Armed Forces: Dismissal ...... 773W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 746W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 774W Food: Waste Disposal ...... 746W Armed Forces: Training ...... 774W Hacking ...... 747W Departmental Manpower...... 774W Gurkhas: Pensions ...... 775W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 796W Ministry of Defence Police: Finance ...... 775W Overseas Aid: Animal Welfare ...... 796W Ministry of Defence Police: Manpower...... 776W MOD Abbey Wood...... 776W NATO...... 776W JUSTICE...... 764W Nuclear Weapons: Security ...... 776W Departmental Air Travel ...... 764W RAF Staxton Wold...... 776W Departmental ICT ...... 764W Royal Army Medical Corps: Dismissal ...... 777W Departmental Procurement...... 764W Royal Army Medical Corps: Manpower ...... 777W Homicide: British Nationals Abroad ...... 765W Offences Against Children ...... 765W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 772W Prisons: Discipline ...... 765W Departmental Air Travel ...... 772W Prisons: Mental Health Services...... 766W

EDUCATION...... 767W TRANSPORT ...... 740W Children: Modelling...... 767W Aviation: Olympic Games 2012...... 740W Children: Social Services...... 768W Crossrail Line: Kent...... 741W English Language: Peterborough ...... 768W Cycling: Rural Areas...... 741W Females: Violence ...... 767W Cycling: Training ...... 742W Young People: Unemployment...... 769W Directly Operated Railways: Manpower...... 742W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 743W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 739W Liverpool Port: Finance ...... 743W Energy: Housing ...... 739W M42 ...... 743W Solar Power...... 739W Network Rail: Compensation...... 744W Railways: Electrification ...... 744W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Roads: Accidents ...... 745W AFFAIRS...... 739W Roads: Birmingham ...... 745W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 739W Transport: Schools ...... 746W National Parks Authorities: Sustainable Development...... 740W TREASURY ...... 784W Rights of Way: Ferndown...... 740W Arms Trade...... 784W Child Benefit...... 785W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 769W Crown Estate Commissioners ...... 786W Syria...... 769W Cru Investment Management...... 787W Financial Services ...... 788W HEALTH...... 758W PAYE: Fines...... 788W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 761W Peacocks Group...... 789W Competition: NHS...... 759W Revenue and Customs: Incentives ...... 789W General Practitioners ...... 761W Revenue and Customs: Pay ...... 789W Health Allocation Formula...... 758W Taxpayers...... 790W Health and Social Care Bill...... 760W VAT: Publications ...... 790W Col. No. Col. No. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 750W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Departmental Billing ...... 750W Housing Benefit ...... 747W Departmental Pay ...... 750W Housing Benefit: Lancashire...... 748W Part-Time Employment...... 751W Incapacity Benefit ...... 749W Post Office Card Account ...... 749W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 747W UN Conventions on the Rights of the Child...... 750W Employment Schemes: Apprentices ...... 747W Working Tax Credit ...... 750W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 28 February 2012

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 21 February 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 723] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Health

European Convention of Human Rights (Temporary Withdrawal) [Col. 746] Bill presented, and read the First time

Road Safety (No. 3) [Col. 747] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Leech)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Welfare Reform Bill [Col. 750] Lords message considered

Remuneration of EU Staff [Col. 772] Motion to take note of EC document—(Miss Chloe Smith)—agreed to

Annual Growth Survey 2012 [Col. 794] Motion to take note of EC document—(Mr Dunne)—on a Division, agreed to

Adjournment (Easter, May, Whitsun, Summer, Conference, November and Christmas) [Col. 799] Motion—(Mr Heath)—on a Division, agreed to

London Local Authorities Bill [Lords] [Col. 804] As amended, further considered

Pension Industry [Col. 844] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Rural Bank Closures [Col. 193WH] Gangmasters Licensing Authority [Col. 216WH] Child Benefit [Col. 240WH] London Olympics [Col. 249WH] Flood Defences [Col. 259WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 71WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 647W]