Tuesday 21 February 2012
Volume 540
No. 266
HOUSE OF COMMONS
OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY
DEBATES
(HANSARD)
Tuesday 21 February 2012
£5·00
© Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012
This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm
Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected]
723
21 FEBRUARY 2012
724 reviewed for potential savings following the Treasury-led pilot exercise that I described, which was undertaken at Queen’s hospital, Romford.
House of Commons
Tuesday 21 February 2012
The House met at half-past Two o’clock
PRAYERS
Oliver Colvile: Given that the PFI process has been proven to have flaws in delivering value for money for taxpayers, what effect does my right hon. Friend feel that that will have on new commissioning boards?
Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know from the very good work being done by the developing clinical commissioning groups in Plymouth that they have a responsibility to use their budgets to deliver the best care for the population they serve. It is not their responsibility to manage the finances of their hospitals or other providers; that is the responsibility of the strategic health authorities for NHS trusts and of Monitor for foundation trusts. In the future, it will be made very clear that the providers of health care services will be regulated for their sustainability, viability and continuity of services but will not pass those costs on to the clinical commissioning groups. The clinical commissioning groups should understand that it is their responsibility to ensure that patients get access to good care.
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS
LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR
LONDON (NO. 2) BILL [L ORDS] (B Y O RDER )
TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL
PROVISIONS) BILL [L ORDS] (B Y O RDER )
Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday
28 February (Standing Order No. 20).
Oral Answers to Questions
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The Secretary
of State will recall that he cancelled the new hospital planned for my area shortly after the general election. Will he advise the House how many hospitals the Government are building that use models other than PFI?
HEALTH
The Secretary of State was asked—
PFI Debt (NHS Hospitals)
Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will recall that his foundation trust was looking to receive more than £400 million in capital grant from the Department, which went completely contrary to the foundation trust model introduced under the previous Government. I pay credit to North Tees and Hartlepool trust, which is developing a better and more practical solution than that which it pursued before the election—many of the projects planned before the election were unviable. The hon. Gentleman will know that projects are going ahead, and last November, together with the Treasury, we published a comprehensive call for reform of PFI. We achieve public-private partnerships and use private sector expertise and innovation, but on a value-for-money basis.
1. Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): What steps he is taking to address levels of PFI debt in NHS hospitals; and if he will make a statement.
[95312]
9. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
(Con): What steps he is taking to address levels of PFI debt in NHS hospitals; and if he will make a statement.
[95320]
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley):
The previous Government left 102 hospital projects with £67 billion of PFI debts. We have worked closely with NHS organisations for which PFI affordability is an issue to identify solutions for them, which have included joint working with the Treasury to reduce the costs of PFI contracts. Despite that, some trusts have unaffordable PFI obligations. On 3 February I announced how each of them could access ongoing Government support to help meet those costs.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): John Appleby of the King’s Fund says that PFI represents less than 1% of the total annual turnover of £115 billion. Does the Secretary of State agree?
Mr Lansley: I gave the hon. Lady the figure: £67 billion of debt. Seven NHS trusts and foundation trusts are clearly unviable because of the debt that was left them by the Labour Government.
Chris Kelly: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Russells Hall hospital was expanded in 2003, but still has £1.8 billion of PFI debt attached to it—debt which will not be paid off until 2042. What steps is he taking to help reduce the PFI costs for hospitals such as mine that have not been completely crippled by Labour’s PFI and therefore do not qualify for central support, but none the less have high levels of debt?
John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Is the Secretary of
State confident that subsidising hospitals burdened with PFI will not be deemed anti-competitive under forthcoming legislation, or state aid under EU legislation? Has he taken appropriate legal advice?
Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who illustrates the precise issue with what Labour left. Labour talked of building new hospitals but left this enormous mortgage, in effect, of £67 billion. He refers to Russells Hall hospital, which, like others, is having its contracts
Mr Lansley: I always act on advice, and I am absolutely clear that the support we have set out for NHS trusts and foundation trusts will not fall foul of anti-competitive procedures.
725
Oral Answers
21 FEBRUARY 2012
Oral Answers
726
NHS Reorganisation
services in the NHS right now. Why does the Minister not put patients before his, the Secretary of State’s and the Prime Minister’s pride, drop this unwanted Bill, and use some of the money it would save to protect those 6,000 nursing posts?
2. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the potential risks of NHS reorganisation.
[95313]
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon
Burns): The Department monitors risks associated with the implementation of the health and social care reform programme on an ongoing basis.
Mr Burns: I have to say that, unfortunately, notwithstanding what the hon. Gentleman thought was a rather clever way of describing my answers, his figures are factually incorrect. As Jim Callaghan once said, an inaccuracy can be halfway round the world before truth gets its boots on. The facts are these: there are 896— [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman would listen to the answer he asked for, he might learn something and stop making misrepresentations. There are 86 more midwives working in the NHS—[HON. MEMBERS: “86?”]— 896, which is an increase of 4%. There are 4,175 more doctors working in the NHS: an increase of 4%. There are 15,104 fewer administrators working in the NHS—a decrease of 7.4%—and 5,833 fewer managers. There are more doctors. There are more midwives. There are fewer administrators.
David Wright: “An open, transparent NHS is a safer
NHS”: not my words, but those of the Secretary of State for Health. Is it not amazing that Ministers do not want to release documentation relating to the reorganisation of the NHS? Is it not an absolute scandal that they will not publish the documentation? Is it not the fact that the reorganisation of the NHS is looking a bit like the Norwegian blue? Should it not shuffle off the perch?
Mr Burns: No, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. As he, or certainly the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), will know, the risk register is an ongoing document—discussions between Ministers and civil servants on the formulation, implementation and transition of policies—and it would be wrong, in my opinion, for it to be published. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State appealed to the tribunal following the decision of the Information Commissioner, in line with the precedent adopted by Secretaries of State in the Labour Government in both the Department of Health and the Treasury.
Private Health Care
3. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the future of private health care.
[95314]
6. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab):
What assessment he has made of the future of private health care.
[95317]
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the
Minister agree that the risk of not reorganising would be the longer waiting lists, longer waits for ambulances and lower access to life-prolonging drugs that we currently see in socialist-dominated Wales under the Assembly?
13. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab):
What assessment he has made of the involvement of the private health care sector in the NHS.
[95324]
Mr Burns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and of course he speaks from the authority of living in a country that has a Labour Administration, where we see spending cut, waiting times and lists rising, and utter chaos in the quality of care for patients.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon
Burns): The Department has made no assessment of the future of private health care. This is not the role of the Department of Health. The private sector has always provided services to the NHS and the Department monitors trends where it does so—for example, the number of NHS patients choosing a private provider under patient choice.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Minister will know that large numbers of people from Wales, particularly north Wales, access treatment in England. What assessment has he made of the risks to such treatment if the legislation goes through?
Jessica Morden: Given that the Prime Minister said there would be no top-down reorganisation of the NHS, the coalition agreement ruled it out and nobody voted for it, what exactly is the Secretary of State’s mandate for turning the NHS into a “fantastic business”, as the Prime Minister has said?
Mr Burns: If the hon. Gentleman is trying to tease out of me what is in the risk register, I am afraid he will be unsuccessful, but if it is of any reassurance I can tell him that for people living close to the border there have been arrangements between Wales and the English NHS and they will continue. Those people will benefit if treated in England, because waiting times are falling in this country, unlike Wales where they are increasing.
Mr Burns: I am extremely sorry if the hon. Lady really believes the mantra that she has just spewed out. If she had read pages 45 and 46 of our manifesto, she would have seen that it says that we would introduce clinical commissioning groups, take away political micromanagement from Whitehall, free up the NHS and cut bureaucracy, as we are doing, which will save £4.5 billion to reinvest in the health service. Our coalition colleagues, the Liberal Democrats, had in their manifesto the abolition of SHAs. So I have to tell the hon. Lady that she is wrong. The test of what is going on and what is a success is the fact that if one meets GPs around the country, they support commissioning for their patients.
Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): What a pleasure it is to see the Secretary of State here today; he managed to make his way in.
I am afraid I have to describe the Minister of State’s answer as codswallop. Let me give him an example of one risk to the NHS that we already know about. The number of NHS nurses has fallen by 3,500 since the general election, and that figure could be at least 6,000 by the end of this Parliament. The Bill is damaging front-line 727
Oral Answers
21 FEBRUARY 2012
Oral Answers
728
Teresa Pearce: On the BBC’s “Newsnight”, the Minister of State stated that the Health and Social Care Bill would turn the NHS into a “genuine market”. How does this belief fit in with the NHS founding principle that access should be based on need, not market forces?
Mr Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question, because it might clarify some of the misinformation being bandied around on the Opposition Benches. Any money generated by private patients or by the private sector within the NHS must be spent on NHS patients, so it will benefit NHS patients and the NHS, and that is to be welcomed.
Mr Burns: I am sorry—the hon. Lady has obviously
not listened properly to me. It has been my guiding principle and my core belief from the day I entered politics that we should have a national health service free at the point of use for all those eligible to use it. In no shape or form does the Bill, or any actions by this Government, compromise that core belief of mine.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con):
Does my right hon. Friend agree that collaboration between the NHS and the independent sector can deliver real benefits for both patients and the taxpayer?
Mr Burns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because we need to drive up the quality of care. What we are doing with the Health and Social Care Bill is closing a loophole so that there can be no favouritism towards the private sector, so the travesty introduced under the previous Government, including the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), where independent treatment centres had an advantage that put the NHS at a disadvantage in providing care, and were paid more than the NHS, will stop, because it is unacceptable.
Mr Brown: The Minister is aware that funding for the health service in Wales and Scotland is through the Barnett formula. For every pound saved by the Government—in other words, for every pound less spent per person in England—there is a knock-on consequence for the budgets in Wales and Scotland. What assessment has he made of the fact that he will be funding NHS provision from private patient fees, rather than the public purse?
Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Part 3 of the
Health and Social Care Bill will introduce competition policy to the NHS by law for the first time in its history. Does the Minister think that that is likely to lead to more private care in this country or less?
Mr Burns: As the hon. Gentleman knows better than
I do, the running of the NHS in Scotland and Wales is a matter for the devolved authorities. I speak for the English NHS, and I can tell him that that we have guaranteed that the budget of the NHS in England will be a protected one for this Parliament in which there will be real-terms increases, albeit more modest than in the past. But we have seen in Wales in particular a fall of just over 8% in funding. That is the decision of a Labour Welsh Government. The moneys that are saved in the health service in England through cutting out bureaucracy and through greater effectiveness in delivering care will be totally reinvested—100%—in the NHS in England.
Mr Burns: I am sorry, but the right hon. Gentleman, who always asks this question, is wrong. We have not introduced competition into the NHS; it was there under the previous Administration.
Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab) indicated dissent.
Mr Burns: It is a bit rich for the former Secretary of
State to bleat about that. What I want is the finest health care for patients so that they are treated more effectively and quickly and their long-term conditions are managed in a way that enhances the patient experience.
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I may have
an interest—a remote one—in this question. I expect my right hon. Friend would agree that every patient who chooses to have private health care rather than national health service care, for whatever reason, is one less case on the national health cost and care bases. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it may be appropriate for the Treasury to do a cost-benefit analysis so as to consider a tax encouragement for individuals, especially those over 65, to take out private health insurance?
Hospital Management
4. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North
Ipswich) (Con): What steps he is taking to address underperforming hospital management teams. [95315]
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley):
The performance of hospital management teams is the responsibility of their boards. Those are accountable to strategic health authorities for NHS trusts, and foundation trusts are accountable to their governors to ensure that they comply with Monitor’s framework. As part of our work to strengthen NHS trusts so that they can reach foundation trust status, we have published guidance on strengthening trust boards, their clinical leadership and management. We are further strengthening accountability through quality accounts and open reporting so that the public can see the absolute and relative performance of all NHS service providers.
Mr Burns: I do not want to disappoint my hon.
Friend, but I am afraid I do not agree with that. What the Government have to concentrate on is giving the maximum amount of resources within the protected budget to the provision of health care in this country, to ensure, enhance and improve the quality of care for patients in England. That is the priority, not providing tax relief in any shape or form for people who use their choice for private health care.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Professionals working in the NHS told the Health and Social Care Bill Committee that income from private patients was important to the development and improvement of NHS services. What steps will my right hon. Friend take to ensure that that income benefits NHS patients?
Dr Poulter: I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. It is absolutely right that managers take responsibility for the decisions that they take at a local level on behalf of patients and are held accountable for
729
Oral Answers
21 FEBRUARY 2012
Oral Answers
730 them. A doctor or nurse who fails in their duty can be struck off, so there is clear accountability, but there appears to be no clear accountability or traceability for the decisions of hospital managers. Who will hold those people properly to account when they have failed?
Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab):
Has the Minister seen an article today by the respected
journalist Polly Toynbee—[Laughte r . ] Respected by
the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: “Stop laughing.”] I am not laughing at all—
Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend knows that the management of trusts should be accountable directly to their boards. As I said, the management of foundation trusts are accountable, through their boards, to their governors. An important point that arose in relation to Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust is that we should ensure—we are looking at how to fulfil this—that there is also a code of practice to which managers are held accountable. He knows, as I do, that management must be accountable through their boards.
Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the views of Polly
Toynbee, as enunciated by Dame Joan.
Dame Joan Ruddock: On a very serious issue, a
waiting list clerk of 17 years has just resigned because she was asked to adopt a range of devious methods to make sure that people coming up to the 18-week target for treatment were taken off lists. Does the Minister understand that patients will not always know whether they have had proper treatment, and that it will be far too late to refer them to an ombudsman at some later
- date?
- Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): The Secretary
of State has part-begun to answer this question, as he recently threatened to sack NHS boards that do not meet their financial and waiting time targets. The question is this: why is he abolishing those powers in the Health and Social Care Bill? Is he really saying that governors of foundation trust hospitals have the power and wherewithal to sack a board?
Anne Milton: I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. I am devastated to say that I have not seen the article to which she refers, but I am sure that I will. The Department has made it very clear to the NHS that clinical priority is and remains the main determinant of when patients should be treated. When I was in opposition I made various visits to various hospitals and saw them fiddling around at the edges, with admin staff forced to do things that they did not want to do, in order to tick boxes for the previous Government.
Mr Lansley: The hon. Lady should know that we intend to enhance the powers of foundation trust governors, but I am simply taking what was her Government’s policy before the election—that all NHS trusts should become foundation trusts, with the freedoms that go with that, and the responsibilities and accountability. We are putting that into place where her Government failed.
Mr Speaker: Right. Can we now speed up a bit?
We have a lot to get through, and I should like to accommodate the interests of colleagues, so everybody needs to tighten up.
- NHS Constitution
- NHS Allergy Services
5. Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): What recourse patients have when denied facilities to which they are entitled under the NHS constitution. [95316]
7. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of NHS allergy services.