Tuesday Volume 540 21 February 2012 No. 266 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 21 February 2012 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 723 21 FEBRUARY 2012 724 reviewed for potential savings following the Treasury-led House of Commons pilot exercise that I described, which was undertaken at Queen’s hospital, Romford. Tuesday 21 February 2012 Oliver Colvile: Given that the PFI process has been proven to have flaws in delivering value for money for The House met at half-past Two o’clock taxpayers, what effect does my right hon. Friend feel that that will have on new commissioning boards? PRAYERS Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend will know from the very good work being done by the developing clinical [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] commissioning groups in Plymouth that they have a responsibility to use their budgets to deliver the best BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS care for the population they serve. It is not their responsibility to manage the finances of their hospitals LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR or other providers; that is the responsibility of the LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) strategic health authorities for NHS trusts and of Monitor for foundation trusts. In the future, it will be made very TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL clear that the providers of health care services will be PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) regulated for their sustainability, viability and continuity Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday of services but will not pass those costs on to the 28 February (Standing Order No. 20). clinical commissioning groups. The clinical commissioning groups should understand that it is their responsibility to ensure that patients get access to good care. Oral Answers to Questions Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): The Secretary of State will recall that he cancelled the new hospital planned for my area shortly after the general election. HEALTH Will he advise the House how many hospitals the Government are building that use models other than The Secretary of State was asked— PFI? Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will recall that his PFI Debt (NHS Hospitals) foundation trust was looking to receive more than £400 million in capital grant from the Department, 1. Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): What steps he is which went completely contrary to the foundation trust taking to address levels of PFI debt in NHS hospitals; model introduced under the previous Government. I and if he will make a statement. [95312] pay credit to North Tees and Hartlepool trust, which is 9. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) developing a better and more practical solution than (Con): What steps he is taking to address levels of PFI that which it pursued before the election—many of the debt in NHS hospitals; and if he will make a statement. projects planned before the election were unviable. The [95320] hon. Gentleman will know that projects are going ahead, and last November, together with the Treasury, we The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): published a comprehensive call for reform of PFI. We The previous Government left 102 hospital projects achieve public-private partnerships and use private sector with £67 billion of PFI debts. We have worked closely expertise and innovation, but on a value-for-money with NHS organisations for which PFI affordability is basis. an issue to identify solutions for them, which have included joint working with the Treasury to reduce the Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): John Appleby of costs of PFI contracts. Despite that, some trusts have the King’s Fund says that PFI represents less than unaffordable PFI obligations. On 3 February I announced 1% of the total annual turnover of £115 billion. Does how each of them could access ongoing Government the Secretary of State agree? support to help meet those costs. Mr Lansley: I gave the hon. Lady the figure: £67 billion Chris Kelly: I thank my right hon. Friend for that of debt. Seven NHS trusts and foundation trusts are answer. Russells Hall hospital was expanded in 2003, clearly unviable because of the debt that was left them but still has £1.8 billion of PFI debt attached to it—debt by the Labour Government. which will not be paid off until 2042. What steps is he taking to help reduce the PFI costs for hospitals such as John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Is the Secretary of mine that have not been completely crippled by Labour’s State confident that subsidising hospitals burdened with PFI and therefore do not qualify for central support, PFI will not be deemed anti-competitive under forthcoming but none the less have high levels of debt? legislation, or state aid under EU legislation? Has he taken appropriate legal advice? Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who illustrates the precise issue with what Labour left. Labour Mr Lansley: I always act on advice, and I am absolutely talked of building new hospitals but left this enormous clear that the support we have set out for NHS trusts mortgage, in effect, of £67 billion. He refers to Russells and foundation trusts will not fall foul of anti-competitive Hall hospital, which, like others, is having its contracts procedures. 725 Oral Answers21 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 726 NHS Reorganisation services in the NHS right now. Why does the Minister not put patients before his, the Secretary of State’s and 2. David Wright (Telford) (Lab): What recent the Prime Minister’s pride, drop this unwanted Bill, and assessment he has made of the potential risks of NHS use some of the money it would save to protect those reorganisation. [95313] 6,000 nursing posts? The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Mr Burns: I have to say that, unfortunately, Burns): The Department monitors risks associated with notwithstanding what the hon. Gentleman thought was the implementation of the health and social care reform a rather clever way of describing my answers, his figures programme on an ongoing basis. are factually incorrect. As Jim Callaghan once said, an David Wright: “An open, transparent NHS is a safer inaccuracy can be halfway round the world before truth NHS”: not my words, but those of the Secretary of gets its boots on. The facts are these: there are 896— State for Health. Is it not amazing that Ministers do not [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman would listen to want to release documentation relating to the reorganisation the answer he asked for, he might learn something and of the NHS? Is it not an absolute scandal that they will stop making misrepresentations. There are 86 more not publish the documentation? Is it not the fact that midwives working in the NHS—[HON.MEMBERS: “86?”]— the reorganisation of the NHS is looking a bit like the 896, which is an increase of 4%. There are 4,175 more Norwegian blue? Should it not shuffle off the perch? doctors working in the NHS: an increase of 4%. There are 15,104 fewer administrators working in the NHS—a Mr Burns: No, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. As he, decrease of 7.4%—and 5,833 fewer managers. There are or certainly the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy more doctors. There are more midwives. There are Burnham), will know, the risk register is an ongoing fewer administrators. document—discussions between Ministers and civil servants on the formulation, implementation and transition of Private Health Care policies—and it would be wrong, in my opinion, for it to be published. That is why my right hon. Friend the 3. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent Secretary of State appealed to the tribunal following assessment he has made of the future of private health the decision of the Information Commissioner, in line care. [95314] with the precedent adopted by Secretaries of State in the Labour Government in both the Department of Health and the Treasury. 6. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the future of private David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the health care. [95317] Minister agree that the risk of not reorganising would be the longer waiting lists, longer waits for ambulances 13. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): and lower access to life-prolonging drugs that we currently What assessment he has made of the involvement of see in socialist-dominated Wales under the Assembly? the private health care sector in the NHS. [95324] Mr Burns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and of The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon course he speaks from the authority of living in a Burns): The Department has made no assessment of the country that has a Labour Administration, where we future of private health care. This is not the role of the see spending cut, waiting times and lists rising, and Department of Health. The private sector has always utter chaos in the quality of care for patients. provided services to the NHS and the Department Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Minister will know monitors trends where it does so—for example, the that large numbers of people from Wales, particularly number of NHS patients choosing a private provider north Wales, access treatment in England. What assessment under patient choice. has he made of the risks to such treatment if the legislation goes through? Jessica Morden: Given that the Prime Minister said there would be no top-down reorganisation of the Mr Burns: If the hon.