Appendix “A”
Transcript: CBC Sounds Like Canada, May 14, 20081
Shelagh Rogers: …Canada, and I'm Shelagh Rogers. There are many conflicts across the country between natives and non-natives over resource development. Six Anishinabi leaders from Northern Ontario are in jail at the moment because they tried to stop a uranium mine on their traditional territory. Tensions remain high on the boundary between the Six Nations Reserve and Caledonia, Ontario. The Six Nations people oppose a housing project on land they claim as theirs. Disagreements about industrial development occur within aboriginal families, as well. <00:33> Today's generation of aboriginal leaders can make decisions their elders oppose, and these disagreements can create some tension. Peter Penashue is Deputy Grand Chief of the Innu Nation in Labrador, and he supports the provincial government's plan to develop more hydroelectric power on the Churchill River. His mother, Tshaukuesh, strongly disagrees. They're in Goose Bay this morning. Hello to you both. <01:00>
Peter Penashue: Good morning.
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Good morning.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter, would you start by telling me how the first phase of the Churchill Falls Hydroelectric Project affected your people? That was back in the 1970s.
1 Audio file previously submitted to Joint Review Panel. Inaudible portions highlighted.
Page 1 of 10 Peter Penashue: Yes, the project released for operation in 1974, and at that time the land that was flooded was 5,700 square kilometres, which was a huge tract of land and flooded many of the traditional lands of the Innu people, and valuable historical lands, and flooded the burial grounds. <01:44> These are obviously the impacts that this project had on the Innu people.
Shelagh Rogers: Tshaukuesh, what did your parents lose in the 1970s with the development of the Churchill Falls Project? <02:01>
Tshaukuesh Penashue: I remember my father said, "This is a good place. This is a good place. There's lots animals everywhere. We should come here next year." And then he left all his stuff – tents, stove, and traps, all the stuff that belongs… hunting stuff. Everything under the water. Everything flooded under the water. Everything under the water. Always, always we <02:35>
Peter Penashue: Yeah.
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Burial grounds. All in the water. And it's very, very sad.
Shelagh Rogers: Tshaukuesh, you spent a lot of time travelling in the Labrador wilderness with your parents. You once told a documentary film crew that you could see mist from the falls a long distance away. <03:00> What did you see when you last visited the falls?
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Every time when I go Churchill Falls with my family, since(?) [sometimes(?)] I took my grandchildren, there's nothing – nothing there anymore. I can't… I cannot see anymore mist. Mist? Did I… I hope I say it right.
Shelagh Rogers: You sure do.
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Tshaukuesh Penashue: Yeah. And I stop many times in… on the… on the bridge with my grandchildren. <03:33> I ask my husband, "Stop. Stop." I wanted to show my grandchildren. I explain my grandchildren, "You see that? Couple of years ago there was lots of water. See that? No water." We just… little bit, very small. When I see that, I'm very, very sad deep in my heart. <04:00> Sometimes I cry.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter, I understand that you've told Danny Williams and the government of Newfoundland and Labrador that you will help make the Lower Churchill Falls Project a reality if the Innu people are properly compensated. What do you want in return from the government? <04:26>
Peter Penashue: Well, I don't know if I said that I would actually help them, but what I did say is that any project that develops in Labrador is going to require consent from the Innu people. In the days when the projects like Churchill Falls were proceeded without consent of the Innu people, without any consideration, without any compensation, are long gone. We understand how the process works now, and we understand there are investors out there who are very different, and they're very much more socially conscious of the impact that their monies have on people. <05:00> So, you know, it's different times. You know, hydro projects, mining developments of this sort requires the satisfaction, I guess, of investors of knowing that their money is not going to be misused or abused to alienate the aboriginal peoples of the local areas that they're working in. Our position has been that our land claims, our land negotiations has to be resolved. And if projects like Lower Churchill are to proceed, then that's a condition that we put on the project. <05:32> And so we've told Danny Williams that without settling our land claims there is not going to be a Lower Churchill. Because if we agree to proceed with a project like Lower Churchill, that's going to create something like a thousand people over ten
Page 3 of 10 years, and those thousand people are going to bring their families, children, some of them will stay. I mean, the population growth of the local(?) area is going to be enormous, and with the population growth like that, it is going to change the political landscape of Labrador. <06:02> So, we have to factor in our interest when we start talking about the projects like Lower Churchill. And furthermore, there's no way that our people are going to agree. If compensation is not being considered from the Upper Churchill, and there has to be reparations, and it's the standard way of working with the past grievances, and we expect the same. <06:29> And so those are on the table, and so I'm not sure if I'm saying that I would help him build the project. What I am saying is that he wants the project, there are conditions attached.
Shelagh Rogers: I think I hear the question you're asking, Peter, is how do you as Innu sustain yourselves? Is that right?
Peter Penashue: Well, the question has always been in my mind. I mean, I'm a young person. I'm 43 years old, and I started in this business when I was 16, and I started off being a very nationalistic person. <07:00> And sometimes very much wanted Canadians out of our lands, and that Innu people to come first, and that was the starting position that I've had. And clearly I grew out of that, and I realized that as aboriginal people and as Canadians, that we have to be able to accommodate each other and Innu people have to find a place. We have to look after ourselves, as well.
Shelagh Rogers: Tshaukuesh, how do you feel about the Lower Churchill Falls Project going ahead? <07:30>
Tshaukuesh Penashue: I am very, very concerned. If the government start another dam, I am very, very concerned. I said many times, thousand, thousand years Innu people was… went hunting Churchill River. I can see Churchill River, so
Page 4 of 10 beautiful river. What's going to happen? Where the people they're going to hunt? And I won't be happy. Where I gonna go canoe trip again? I did that. Eleven years I went canoe trip. Every summer. August '96(?). And always, different people support me, came canoe trip with me. That was
Peter Penashue: Surprised. To my shock(?).
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Mm-hm. I was very, very surprised when I see a big sign – paper. <09:31> I told my husband, "Did you ever see when you're young this? A big sign?" I went many, many, many miles. We walked with my father and my mom when I was young. I never, never see the other big sign. And then the other paper said not to eat the fish. You can eat a fish, just little bit. <10:00> Maybe one week, just twice. I was very, very sad when I see that paper. That's why I didn't want to stop what I'm doing, canoe trip every summer. I don't want to see another dam.
Shelagh Rogers: Tshaukuesh, besides the canoe trips, you've been taking people on what you call <10:24>
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Carly King:
Elizabeth Yeoman:
Shelagh Rogers: Those were the voices of women who joined my guest Elizabeth Penashue, Tshaukuesh, on a 150-kilometre walk in the Labrador wilderness. Tshaukuesh is in Goose Bay with her son, Peter. Why is it important for you to lead these walks, Tshaukuesh? <12:28>
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Every time, when I walk every spring, always the people support me, Innu people: women and men and children. And my grandchildren. Every spring, he walk with me. And when I walk, it's very, very important what I'm doing. They brought the children. They brought grandchildren. They brought great-great-children. <12:57> Because I want to keep it, you know, Innu culture, environment. Walk in the bush, in the country. After,
Page 6 of 10 when I put my camp, my tent, and at evening, after supper, and then I talk with my grandchildren. I said to him, "Both is very, very important: school and Innu culture. Both is very, very important." <13:30> And he listen to me when I talk for him. That's why I didn't want to stop what I'm doing. I want to keep Innu culture like it… I don't want it get lost, everything. When I walk, I'm not doing just for the fun. This is very, very hard work, walk every day. <14:00> Sometimes, one day, eight kilometres we walk, sometimes nine. Last walk I'll remember – eleven kilometres we walk. Start in the morning. Finish nine o'clock in the evening. It's getting dark in the evenings. They walk with my grandchildren and my people. Just like a circle. Everything in there, it's so important. <14:29> I said many times, and when I speak to my people and my grandchildren, "If I'm gone, someone got to do what I'm doing." Just like I'm teaching. Just like I am teacher. Just like the teachers in the school.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter, given that your mother's... you have such a strong environmental stand, how do you think she'll react if the river is changed again and more land becomes flooded? <15:00>
Peter Penashue: Well, I understand… I understand her position and I understand her emotions. Equally… I mean, land is as equally important to me as it is for her. But the difference between she and I is that I look at all the people that are coming into Labrador. I see that they're growing. In the 1940s, for example, Goose Bay didn't exist, or it's just being built, and there were very few people here, and there was just people that worked with Hudson Bay and people that are associated with the trapping. <15:31> Those are the people that were here. But since the military base has been built, there's been a lot of people here. Now we have a population here in Goose Bay, it's 8,000, and was more. Labrador City, 18,000 and growing, and there's other developments taking place or being proposed. Lower Churchill. So, I can see that there's a population growth taking place in
Page 7 of 10 Labrador. <15:56> And our population of 2,200 versus the 30,000… or 20,000-plus population that we're competing with, and they're all starting to have their own interests, their own stake in the ground, building their cabins, building their homes. Already talking about Labrador as being "theirs". So I can see that there are problems taking place. So our position has to be that we have to find our place very soon in Labrador and that we can call our own. <16:30> That we can take, you know, into 200 years from now and be very proud that we have this land that we can develop for ourselves. But, if we take the position that Labrador has to be kept as pristine as possible, well, the only beneficiaries then are the people that are coming in to develop, because they can proceed and benefit while we sit back and try to put the brakes on because we don't have that influence, because we have to start generating revenue from our own lands. <17:07> If you look across the country what's happening, there's the Conservatives, and there's less and less money for aboriginal peoples. The country is becoming more right wing than we've ever seen. So, that's what has to be factored in. Where are we going to be once the government becomes much more right wing? Where's our place? Does it… <17:30> Do we just get relegated to being poor and not have a future? I don't think so. I think our… we have to find our place, and we find that place by leveraging projects like Lower Churchill. We don't want Lower Churchill. But if Lower Churchill's going to proceed, then we have to be a beneficiary to that project.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter…
Peter Penashue: Otherwise, we're just going to be relegated to being indefinitely(?) being… into poverty.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter, you looked across the country in that last response. <18:01> I'd like you to look across the table and tell me how your sense – I really
Page 8 of 10 understand that, at heart, you and your mother feel the same way – but as far as the practical levels go and wanting a piece of the pie, that kind of thing goes, how is this affecting your relationship with Tshaukuesh?
Peter Penashue: Oh, our relationship is excellent. I mean, politically, we're different. We look at the world differently. But personally, we have a very good relationship. <18:31> When I look at my mother, I look at a very nice woman, very big heart. And she's, like, you know, 64 or 65. I have children, and I have grandchildren. So, I look at my mother and I look at my grandchildren, both equally important to me. How do I ensure that my children, my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren, how do I ensure their future? <18:58> I don't see people going off into the land to be in the land for 365 days. I don't see that happening. It's actually happening… the other way is happening. There's less and less people going into the country. So, I have to be practical, and I have to be sensible with my approach. I am elected, and I'm elected by the people, and I have to be very practical with what I wish for and what's practical.
Shelagh Rogers: But how difficult is that for you to do that, given your history, your people's history and the way your mother feels? <19:30>
Peter Penashue: Well, it is very difficult. But I can't be… you know, I can't be held hostage by my own fear, you know? One thing I'm absolutely clear to me is that, you know, I'm terrified of failure. We're not as isolated as we once were.
Shelagh Rogers: Tshaukuesh, is it difficult for you?
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Peter is my son, and I love so much my son. He is very, very strong. I am very, very strong, too… woman. <20:02>Someone, she's gonna win. Someone, they will(?) [won't(?)] lost. Maybe I won't be win. Maybe I won't be loss. I don't know if I give you right answer.
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Shelagh Rogers: Only you know the right answer. Yeah, well(?). But I think that that really sums it up. Obviously, you know, I'm not trying to drive a wedge between you two. You love each other and you respect each other. I can hear that. <20:30> I thank the two of you very much for joining me.
Peter Penashue : Thank you very much.
Tshaukuesh Penashue: Thank you.
Shelagh Rogers: Peter Penashue is Deputy Grand Chief of the Innu Nation in Labrador. His mother, Tshaukuesh, was just awarded a National Aboriginal Achievement Award for her environmental activism. She also holds an honorary degree from Memorial University in Newfoundland, and a Y Woman of Achievement Award. <20:56>
Music from Montreal now… <20:58>
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