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World Bank Document 103396 Public Disclosure Authorized WORLD BANK HISTORY PROJECT Brookings Institution Public Disclosure Authorized Transcript of interview with BERNARD R. BELL Public Disclosure Authorized November 21, 1990 Washington, D.C. Interview by: John Lewis, Richard Webb, Devesh Kapur Public Disclosure Authorized 1 [Begin Tape 1, Side A]1 LEWIS: . one from the Japanese perspective. Catherine Gwin--I know you know her. She's with the Rockefeller Foundation, very, very good. She's going to do a sort of a U.S. perspective. Then we have one that's going to look at the Bank as an intellectual shop, a thinking organization. Nick [Nicholas H.] Stern at LSE [London School of Economics] is going to do that, and one is going to look at it as a project engine—looking at it's—sort of round up project record in two areas, East Africa and South Asia, and [S.] Gouhan is going to do the South Asian part of that one. A fellow at Oxford is going to do the East African part. We're going to have one, we hope, on all of the series of Africa reports in the '80s that have been focusing attention—Phil [Philip] Ndegwa is probably going to do that, and some more of this—about, well, ten in total of these things. And we’ve started to do--we've done a fair amount of interviewing, but you're still fairly early on the list. And we’ve got to get--we've had one interview with [Robert S.] McNamara only so far. BELL: You have? LEWIS: Yeah. We're going to have a series with him, but we haven't gotten back to him for a second one yet. We’ve talked to--one good interview with Burke Knapp. We've seen Ernie [Ernest Stern] a couple of times, not at great length. We've--we talked with Dave [Davidson] Sommers. We have read your oral history that you did for the chap whose book is focusing on Woods, and so you talked about the Bell mission in India. And I know that story, I think, pretty well. And . BELL: I barely remember the . WEBB: Robert Oliver. BELL: Oh, yes. Yeah, I've got a draft chapter of his in front of me now, which he's asked me to go over. LEWIS: The thing that I would particularly like to hear from you today, if you're willing, is about Indonesia, because as we think about big important countries where the Bank has played a very major role, Indonesia probably comes to mind first of all and maybe Colombia, maybe India but I think not so clearly India, but Indonesia is outstanding and also your particular status in that exercise and the different kind of, degree of autonomy that you got while you were there is a very important part of the story. And one thing--we've been thinking some of trying to get an Indonesian to write that story from an Indonesian perspective, and so far we haven't been encouraged to think there's anyone who really knows it who's in a position to sort of tell it like it is. Maybe that's not so, but . 1 Original transcript by the Brooking Institution World Bank history project; original insertions are in [ ]. Insertions added by the World Bank Group Archives are in italics in [ ]. Bernard R. Bell November 21, 1990 – Verbatim 2 BELL: The person I think of immediately is Widjojo [Nitisastro]. LEWIS: Widjojo? Well, he's a member of our advisory committee. As you may not be surprised to hear, it's very hard to get his attention. He so far hasn't come to either of the two meetings we've had. We can't get him to answer his mail. But anyway--but really, if you could just—how did that get--you came back from the—I know about the Bell mission period, I think, and you came back to join the Bank full time at that point, did you? BELL: Before that mission was really completed. But before we go into that there's a little story--it may not be of interest, but very few people know about it and it always amuses me when I recall it--which was my first contact with the World Bank, and that was in September 1946. At that time I was the chief economist of the U.S. Export-Import Bank, and Bill [William McChesney, Jr.] Martin was the president and chairman of the board. And one of our eminent borrowers was the government of Chile, represented by the Demanto [ph.] Corporation headed by a man named Roberto Bergara [ph.], and he used to come in with loan applications to the Ex-Im Bank each year. And in anticipation of his coming in September '46, the national advisory council considered the question of whether Ex-Im Bank should lend them money or whether we should put the World Bank to work. And the decision was that World Bank, which had been winding up and winding up, ought to be put to work. So when Roberto came in, Bill Martin and I saw him, and Bill told him, "You have to take your application over to the World Bank." And Roberto said, "Why do we have to be the guinea pigs?" And Bill said, "Well, you're such experienced borrowers it will make it easier for them." So he said, "Well, okay." Went downstairs, got in his car, drove over to 1818 H and saw Eugene Meyer, who was then the president of this institution. Half an hour later Bill Martin's phone rang--I was in his office at the time--and Meyer said, "We just got a loan application. What do we do now?" And the conversation ended with Martin agreeing to lend me and the chief engineer of Ex-Im Bank to this institution for three or four weeks to help their staff figure out what you do now. We did. WEBB: This guy's name was Roberto? BELL: Roberto Bergara. I don't know whether he's still alive or not. WEBB: I don’t know his the name. Bernard R. Bell November 21, 1990 – Verbatim 3 BELL: He had to leave Chile when [Augusto] Pinochet came in. LEWIS: So that--and then your next contact with the Bank was when [George D.] Woods got you into the . BELL: No, it was prior to that. In--sometime around 1960 or so the Bank sent a national economic mission to Colombia. And they asked--I was in a private consulting firm at the time; I had left Ex-Im Bank--and they asked me if I would go on that mission as the transport economist or something. And I did and wrote a report. And then . WEBB: Was that the Currie mission, Lauchlin Currie? BELL: No. It was . LEWIS: It was after that. It would have been--you say it was about 1960? BELL: '60, '61, something like that. It was after Currie. Currie was living in Colombia at the time [inaudible]. And I'm not sure of the sequence, but either prior to that mission or just after it, there was a--the Bank commissioned a national transport survey of Colombia. And they gave the contract for it to an engineering firm whose name will come to me in a minute but on condition that they associate themselves with an economic consulting firm, specifically with me--which they did. So I was there on that. And then the next thing that happened was just about the same time AID [U.S. Agency for International Development] persuaded the then prime minister of Indonesia--who was called first minister because Sukarno liked to call himself president and prime minister--a man named [Raden] Djuanda, to accept something that they had been flogging for, the AID, which was the establishment of what they called a project planning group, engineers and economists. And Djuanda said okay, provided that the man who supervised that mission was me and that I was also to be responsible for acting as an advisor to him. LEWIS: He knew you by reputation or . BELL: We had met originally back just after independence when he came to Washington. And then we’d met again briefly in 1957 when, for the government of Indonesia, together with Oscar Gass, we'd done a study of what they ought to do about fertilizer production which resulted in the recommendation that they build a urea plant, which would have been the third in the world at that time, with a production capacity of 100,000 tons a year. LEWIS: That was a big one! Bernard R. Bell November 21, 1990 – Verbatim 4 BELL: Indonesia now produces over two million tons of urea per year. And we did that. And Djuanda and the head of this planning bureau took the report to Ex-Im Bank and asked for a loan to finance the urea plant and got it immediately. So we’d had some contact. Then—oh, I recall; I forgot this--sometime in the early 1960s Sukarno had set up a planning commission to develop a five-year plan, and the head of the technical staff of that mission, who was the education minister of Indonesia, had asked AID to supply somebody to review their draft. And two names were proposed by AID, and I'm flattered to say that the two consisted of [David E.] Lilienthal and myself and they decided on me. Lilienthal was probably too high-powered.
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