Baroness Sheila Hollins 1 November 2019 25/12
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IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 1 November 2019 1 Friday, 1 November 2019 1 Q. The Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry with Disability. 2 (10.30 am) 2 You have been the President of the Royal College of 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Day 5 of 3 Psychiatrists and, indeed, you are a founder member of 4 this public hearing. Ms Carey? 4 the PCPM. 5 MS CAREY: Good morning, chair. May I ask, please, that 5 A. Mmm-hmm. 6 Baroness Hollins is sworn. 6 Q. I think, if anyone wishes to, there are more details 7 BARONESS SHEILA HOLLINS (sworn) 7 about the Baroness's background in paragraph 1 of her 8 Examination by MS CAREY 8 witness statement. 9 MS CAREY: I think you are Baroness Sheila Hollins? 9 Can I look at the background, though, to the PCPM. 10 A. Yes. 10 Can I ask you this: having joined the PCPM, did you come 11 Q. Chair, we are turning to two real topics of evidence 11 to learn why Pope Francis decided to establish the PCPM? 12 this morning: some evidence in relation to the 12 A. Well, I think there were a number of things: the 13 Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, or 13 scandals that had taken place in Boston, for example, 14 PCPM, as we have called it; and also we are going to ask 14 and in Ireland. Cardinal O'Malley, who was the cardinal 15 the Baroness some questions about the training that was 15 in Boston at the time in 2011 -- in 2012, when the 16 given in Valladolid this year. 16 Pontifical Commission -- I think it was the end of 2012, 17 Baroness, I hope, in front of you, you have your 17 when the Pontifical Commission was first proposed by 18 witness statement, and there may be various exhibits 18 Cardinal O'Malley to Pope Francis. Cardinal O'Malley 19 I am going to call up onto the screen. 19 had been one of Pope Francis's advisors. It was then 20 A little about you, if I may, at the outset. 20 the following year that Pope Francis suggested that he 21 I think you are an independent crossbench life peer? 21 should indeed establish the Pontifical Commission. But 22 A. Yes. 22 I think another reason for that was that in 2012, the 23 Q. You have a background in child psychiatry and 23 Pontifical Gregorian University held a conference -- 24 psychotherapy? 24 I think it was called Towards Healing -- and I was 25 A. Yes. 25 a speaker at that conference. I think that conference, Page 1 Page 2 1 which invited bishops from all Bishops' Conferences 1 Which is an official formal statement: 2 around the world, really tried to think about what the 2 "... on March 22 of 2014, Pope Francis wrote that 3 issues were and how it should be dealt with. So that 3 the commission's task is to advise the Roman Pontiff on 4 was the stimulus. 4 effective policies for the protection of minors and 5 Q. I don't think we have heard, actually, very much about 5 vulnerable adults and educational programmes for all who 6 the Pontifical Gregorian University. Can you just help 6 are involved in this work." 7 explain, what is that university set up for? 7 So there's an advisory role and an educational role? 8 A. I mean, there are a number of pontifical universities, 8 A. Well, it's to advise on both. 9 and they originally, I think, were set up to teach 9 Q. Right. 10 philosophy and theology. The Pontifical Gregorian 10 A. So it was not charged with implementation of policies. 11 University in Rome is unusual in that it also has an 11 Q. Had there been any, as far as you're aware, 12 institute of psychology, and the head of the institute 12 committee/person who was advising on this area prior to 13 of psychology, Father Hans Zollner, is the person who 13 the establishment of the PCPM? 14 has taken quite a lead on the church's response, and it 14 A. I'm sure that the Secretary of State in the Vatican 15 was his initiative which led to the 2012 conference 15 would have had some responsibility in that respect, but 16 which I attended. 16 there was no other body that I recall. 17 Q. So if I understand what you are saying correctly, there 17 Q. If we can call on screen, please, INQ004371_003 -- 18 was no one issue that prompted Pope Francis to set up 18 chair, it is behind your tab 2 -- I just want to look at 19 the PCPM, but a number of concerns and scandals being 19 the formal statutes for the PCPM. Article 2, if we can 20 raised that led to the establishment of the PCPM; is 20 highlight that, please. We can see there set out at 21 that fair? 21 article 2: 22 A. I believe so. 22 "The protection of minors is of paramount 23 Q. I think the aim of the PCPM is explained in paragraph 5 23 importance. The purpose of the commission is to propose 24 of your witness statement, where you say this: 24 initiatives to the Roman Pontiff, according to the 25 "In a chirograph ..." 25 procedures and determinations specified in these Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry Roman Catholic Church Investigation Wider Hearing 1 November 2019 1 statutes, for the purposes of promoting local 1 initiatives arose out of our own experience as members 2 responsibility in the particular churches for the 2 of the commission with those of us who had educational 3 protection of all minors and vulnerable adults." 3 experience going to different places and endeavouring to 4 On any view, Baroness, it is quite a broad aim 4 identify the best approaches in terms of education so 5 there, but can you just help put into layman's terms 5 that we were informed in what we were doing. 6 what was the commission really set up to do? 6 Q. Can I pause you there, because it might help the chair 7 A. Well, I mean, essentially to -- first of all, we have to 7 and panel to understand the numbers in the PCPM, and 8 remember that the church is a global church and, whilst 8 then I was going to turn to how you became involved in 9 the abuse inquiries that have taken place and the 9 it. Can you just help with what is the makeup of 10 disclosures of abuse that had occurred had happened 10 the PCPM? 11 mostly in western countries, there was an awareness that 11 A. So there were 17 members, and in the first year, 2014, 12 this was a worldwide issue, not just for the church but 12 there were eight founder members. I had been very -- 13 within society at large, and that trying to raise 13 felt that it had been very important that the majority 14 awareness about this was seen as extremely important, 14 of the members should be lay people and that there 15 and then to think about: well, what could we advise the 15 should be at least 50 per cent women, because, you know, 16 church, the global church, to do in order to help 16 this -- we needed to represent the makeup of the church 17 children and vulnerable adults be safer? 17 membership in a broader way. It was not necessary for 18 So that was our remit. It was very broad. It was 18 people to be Catholic, but it was expected that people 19 left for us to try to determine what were the best 19 would have some relevant professional experience, both 20 initiatives and policies that we could recommend, and so 20 from the law, from psychiatry and psychology, and also 21 some of it was about identifying best practice, 21 we felt that it was very important that we should have 22 identifying weaknesses in different areas, and making 22 survivor members of the panel -- of the commission, and 23 proposals to the Holy Father, and those included 23 there were -- yes. 24 a variety of things, including educational initiatives 24 Q. So there are eight founder members spread across -- 25 that we proposed, but -- and some of those educational 25 representatives from a number of countries, or English Page 5 Page 6 1 speaking? Can you help us with that? 1 Q. If I understand it right, we have the PCPM that expanded 2 A. So they were not all English speaking. We always had to 2 from its eight to 17 members, but Working Groups within 3 have -- we had Italian, Spanish and French speaking. To 3 it; is that right? 4 begin with, only -- the majority of the members were 4 A. We had six Working Groups, yes. 5 European, and during that first year, we were charged 5 Q. Those six Working Groups, what, roughly, did they cover? 6 with identifying members who came from further afield so 6 A. They covered healing and care, which was -- I think is 7 that all continents would be represented, and we worked 7 fairly self-explanatory.