LGBTQ Oral History Project Introduction to LGBTQ Studies (Spring 2018) Northern Kentucky University

Destini Edwards (interviewer 1) (D.E.) Sarah Mohammed (interviewer 2) (S.M.) Rachel Oskins (narrator) (R.O.) S.M. Alright, I’m Sarah. R.O. Hello Sarah, I’m Rachel. Nice to meet you. S.M. Nice, to meet you as well, and we have a couple of questions for you so… R.O. Okay. S.M. We are going to start off with where you are from originally? R.O. Okay, I was born in Omar, West Virginia. I was born in a coal mining camp. I was born at home. I too am a coal miners daughter, just not the famous one! S.M. So, how long did you live there? R.O. Well, I don’t know for sure, we moved outside of Ashland, Kentucky. Probably shortly after the time when I was six to eight months old. My mom and dad followed my grandfather, her father. I guess he got the job up there in the mines. And then he got another job in Ashland, and my dad and mom followed him to the Ashland area. D.E. Alright, next question we are going to ask you is; How do you self-identify, in the terms of your sexual orientation? R.O. Lesbian. D.E. Okay. S.M. If then, you would describe your first romantic relationship? R.O. Okay, um, that would have been when I was in college, and this women keep coming up to me, I was working the desk in the dorm and she kept coming up to me when I was working and she wasn’t someone at that time who that I thought looked gay, but I don’t know what that really meant. But we started talking and we would talk for hours while I was on duty and then we would go up to her room, and then it just kind of lead, one thing leads to another. D.E. When did you realize that you were LGBTQ? R.O. I don’t remember not knowing. As a young child I was a tomboy. So, I think that was probably more acceptable for girls to be acting like boys, than for boys to be acting like girls, which was sissy. I remember wanting boy toys, and I remember one Christmas in particular. I really wanted a football and a baseball, I don’t know maybe something else like cowboy guns or something like those things. But I got a doll and cried. And then after that I started getting the toys that I wanted. When they realized that I didn’t get, then my brother had the toys that I wanted. S.M. So, do you think that you always knew? R.O. I think I kind of did. I think part of that being a tomboy was the early stages of it. I early on had a name for it. So, it wasn’t so mysterious. I would go to the library and do some reading and do some checking trying to find out as I got into junior high probably started around 8 or so, I was noticing the women’s softball team. And as I was growing up, my best friend who was in my class, I had a crush on her older sister. But her older sister was just old enough to where we were just pestering her when we tried to hang out with her. And of course, she wouldn’t have anything to do with me or her sister, she would often pick us up and take us to practice, so we had that time. But then she was dropping us off and going and doing whatever she was going to do. D.E. So, when did you officially come out as lesbian? R.O. Probably would have been in college. Explored a little bit in high school but where I grew up, other than the softball team, which were older women because most of them were already out of high school, as I was coming into middle school and high school, there wasn’t, I don’t remember anyone else in high school that was actually gay. Because it was so closeted back then. Even as I got older in the bars and stuff you would walk down these little dingy alleyways and you would go in and knock on the door and someone would open it up and I don’t know how they were assessing you before they let you in. so, it was all that kind of scary, spooky kind of closeted kind of way of trying to meet people. S.M. Can you give me like an era, what time was this? What years maybe? R.O. Let’s see, I graduated from high school in 1970 and then went to college. That was five years at college. So, I graduated in ’75 from college. So, it would have probably been late 60’s early 70’s. S.M.

What was going on around that time, when it came to the LGBTQ community? R.O. Well, not a lot of people were out. I mean if you found someone that was gay they could tell you other people that were gay. But they could tell you where they would be or some of the things that they might be doing. But it wasn’t something just like today if I wanted to do something with the LGBTQ community I would know several places where I could go and do that. It wasn’t like that way as I was growing up. you know even some of the bars had names that you had to figure out or someone had to tell you what kind of bar it was. And you also had to be careful coming out because there were a lot of the gay bashers that would wait outside. D.E. What did your parents say about gay or lesbian people? R.O. Well, it really wasn’t talked about in my household, because we just didn’t have those kinds of conversations. I don’t know that my parent even knew anybody that was gay. Do I think that they suspicioned it with me? Yes, because I was that tomboy and I think mom had some suspicions that I might not grow out of that. but she died when I was eleven, so I don’t know what she would have really thought. So, she was in a car wreck. She was hit by a drunk driver and it killed her and my dad had a closed head injury. So, then I grew up raising myself, my brother, my sister and my dad who was more kid like than he was adult like. He remarried shortly there after to and alcoholic and then quickly became one. So, I didn’t do a lot of running around with anybody because I was the only kid, that I knew, was going home and fixing dinner. So, as far as trying to search some of that out, I didn’t have those opportunities, nor did I have a way to get anywhere if it wasn’t in the little town of Flatwoods where I grew up S.M. Did you eventually tell him? R.O. I think he knew but we became estranged. It was just a lot for me, an eleven-year-old. I had pretty much the full responsibility. He would leave money in a coffee cup and sometimes he was gone for two weeks at a time. And I wouldn’t see him or even know where he was. Often times they were in jail, because they were drinking. So, I, at twelve was going up to the store that mom had sent me to, and often times I didn’t have enough money so I would just went up and would say “Dad wanted to know if I could have bread and bologna or whatever for supper until he gets paid on Friday?” so, they would let me have the food that I could take back so that we would have something to eat. S.M. Did they know? R.O. I think that they knew, it was hard to tell at that time because I didn’t really have all the problems, but they had to have known that mom had died. I’m sure that they knew that dad was injured but I don’t have a sense of that. That’s part of what I try to figure out now, is there were just somethings that went too smooth. And of course, we didn’t have child protective services like we now or I wouldn’t have been able to stay at home. S.M. So, another question since you know your dad wasn’t there, did you have someone you looked up to? Was there an idol or an icon that you followed? R.O. Well I had crushes on some of my female teachers, there was one that was a physical education teacher. So, I decided I wanted to be a Phys. Ed. Major. I was into sports they were kind of the break for me. That was one thing that dad would let me do, because he was very strict, and so if I was out playing sports he was pretty much okay with that. He also had a guy that he worked with that was one of the coaches and would tell him whether I was doing what I was supposed to be doing or not. I didn’t know that for a long time but still it’s part of what kept me going. Especially when I was able to play softball through the summer, basketball, volleyball through the winter. We tried a little bit of track, but our team only went to one meet and that was it. As far as idols there was Billy jean king, who was a tennis pro. She did the match with Bobby Riggs and it was the male versus female kind of thing, the battle of the sexes. And Martina Navratilova was also another big, she had come out as being gay and was a high paid professional sports woman. There was one more that I had thought about, it was Joan Jett was also someone that I liked listening to her music and at the time wasn’t sure but did find out later that she was a lesbian. D.E. Also going to back track a little bit you also talked about how there weren’t a lot of people that were gay in your school that you at least knew about, like you said, you were a tomboy, did you even experience any bullying because of this? R.O. Maybe a little bit, but I didn’t experience a lot of bullying. I think that was because one, I was an athlete, and I think athletes especially now and then probably had more, were less like to be bullied because of having that status of athlete. I think people must have known that I had lost my mom, because other kids would get bullied, but I was there might have been something said here or there but nothing that I would really consider bullying, just some rude comments once in a while. But at that point I wasn’t really out as a lesbian, though I figured people could figure that out. I mean I wasn’t hanging with the guys I was hanging with the girls.

S.M. Did you ever regret coming out later in your life? R.O. No, I just wish I would have been able to do it sooner. I think part of having that pride, part of being comfortable with who you are. In some of the years I was out and kind of not. I mean people, I kind of did this where, you got to know me and once I knew you I would tell you that I was gay. If it wasn’t someone that I knew I wouldn’t say “hi, I’m Rachel, I’m gay!” it wasn’t that kind of thing, it also wasn’t a big thing back in that time. It was very different because it was very dangerous coming out. And you had to be very careful of what you were doing. That also stifled some of that I might have done other wise and had mom lived I don’t know how that would have changed, but then I would have had a better support at home and I think that would have made a difference too. D.E. So, have you ever experienced and retaliation for your sexuality outside of your schooling? R.O. Well, it’s interesting that you had that question on here because I started working in Newport. I quickly came out to my supervisor, because my partner at the time had to have surgery. So, I was going to need to be off and had not been working there for very long and I still feel like she treats me differently than she does the other staff. Is it because I’m gay and I came out to her or is this just more of her personality. I don’t I’m not around her enough to actually figure that out. I do feel that I have been treated differently and I was only there for a few months and my partner needed surgery, so I needed the time off so it’s like I got, I have to go in and tell you. I probably would have waited a little before I came out for people at work, certain people to know. I’ve always pretty much let my supervisor know just because that’s a protection for me and especially or the kids that I am around. If boys are coming up and saying that Rachel did something they can pretty much tell. D.E. Well, no she didn’t. R.O. That yeah, no she did not. Now if a girl is going to say that they might have some concern, but still with me being out that just keeps the communication open and I think it helps keep the suspicion from being there because they get to know me as a person and know that I am not trying to hide something. I think that sometimes certain situations part of that problem was that the person was hiding something and that makes everything seem like it’s a lie. You know so, I think it’s important that my supervisors know the team that I work with the most knows. The other team probably knows because there was a worker that went around work, that was there previously, that went around telling everyone because she liked to stir the pot and when we were employed by EKU during the training we talked about how it wasn’t for other people to “out” people but I think that she did anyway. I mean if people would ask me I would tell them but there are some people who I am not sure about at work, and to try to keep a good working relationship I just don’t talk about that with them. S.M. Okay, so this question isn’t on here but, why do you think that there is such a need at a work place for people to know the sexuality of someone else, if it is not heterosexual? R.O. Well part of it is because most of the people grow up heterosexual and don’t think of there being a different orientation and I think that sometimes that perception reaches too far, and I think that we need to have a diverse work space. I think we also need to have people that are gay working with kids that are gay because I think that gives them role model. So I think that is another reason that I want my supervisor and the people that I am working closely with to know because that is I want them to feel comfortable with me and I don’t want them to think that I am lying about something and sometimes as you are building work relationships, without being honest you can usually tell that there is a little something off. And sometimes that effects the whole relationship. And I think probably one of the biggest reasons that there are LGBTQ kids. And I think that they need to have someone that is also gay who work with them. Do I come out to my kids? No, not unless they ask. Because I feel that if they ask they deserve to know I believe that some suspicion it but none of them have ever come out and asked and I have not felt the need to tell them because we are working with their problems; not what’s going on with me. D.E. That also eliminates a lot of, what could be a reverse reaction from the children. Another question that I would like to ask that is not on our list, but if you could talk about that some more. R.O. Well, Destini that is true because I work mostly with teenage boys and that is one of the most homophobic groups that we have. Because they are learning about their sexuality and they hear all of this other stuff out here and they’re not sure how to handle things and the tend to be some of the most homophobic but, the kids that I’ve got; I work with a young man who is transgender and in watching him with some of the other people especially with other kids that he is close to that his worker and I would take them both out to eat, so I would get to see that interaction. I would make some suggestions that I would think that would have triggered “Why is she suggesting that?” but they never came out and said anything. They like to tease me that when we go out meet these old men that come up and talk to me and they want to protect me from these old men! “He’s talking to Rachel, why is he talking to Rachel?”. So, they have kind of become protective and I guess if they really thought about it they would probably figure it out, but like I said before it’s about them not about me. I am trying to guide them and help them along and if they ask I would tell. S.M. That commendable, what you do. R.O. Thank you. S.M. You’re welcome. So. let us see, Destini did mention you were active in the LGBTQ community. R.O. Well yes. I was more active in Lexington. I started, and I had some involvement. Not growing up and having that community. For me it’s a very different community there is a lot of drinking, a lot of drugs and I don’t want to be around that. So, I am very selective when I am choosing people that I am going to be around. A lot of the drama in the community, and I’m sure it’s everywhere else too, but a lot of the drama that’s there I don’t want to fool with. So, I have kind of had some involvement, but got more involved in Lexington because I had broken up with a partner and I needed to find some people to be around other than the group that I had. I was volunteering for pride festival and I would show up and help set up and whatever they needed, run water bottles, man a couple of tables do those sorts of things for pride. I was also with Just Fund Kentucky, which also broadened my perspective, because in that group was a state representative, that is now a judge he is gay. I’ve been to his house I know his partner. So, it king of introduced me to a higher Escalon, so to speak, and the purpose of that program was, we had a benefactor that if we raised a million dollars he would match that million dollars. And the purpose of the Just Fund Kentucky is for gay and lesbians like in some of our more rural counties that don’t have anyone to represent them when they are being discriminated against, this would pay for attorneys that would represent their cases. So, I was like their volunteer chair for that. I did that for three and a half years. I was a chair for three years and I did a half year of volunteering for whatever they needed to be done because I came in late in the game. We would have that, and we would have this big event once a year and I kept trying to get them to notch that up just a little bit. It could very well have been the gay event in Lexington, even the gay event in Kentucky, if we had just notched it up a little bit. That was a little bit beyond what they were wanting and the purpose of the group, so we never quite got there. Not only were there gay people attending but there was a lot of the more richer folks that were donating money. You kind of got that, you got to rub elbows with some of the more elite people in the Lexington area, some came from other parts of Kentucky, but most were from the Lexington area. Here I am not that involved at this point, as Destini knows, my partner and I broke up not too long ago, the friends that we had all went with her. So, it’s just been a matter of trying to go through some of the healing process and having the strength, and working, it’s just been something that I have put on the back burner. But in mentioning that I do get a list about a Tuesday night group that meets over at St. Johns church over in Clifton, I also am looking into volunteering for pride, I don’t know if I want to do Cincinnati pride or pride of northern Kentucky, volunteering with them so there is a couple of outlets there. One of the things that I have found, especially when I hit around 40 the older lesbians tend to do thing in their homes, so it makes it a little bit harder to get those connections. Unless you kind of know somebody and they say hey come on we are going to go do this. I do have a good friend in Lexington that we were trying to do some activities where there would be no alcohol of drugs involved. So, we were trying to do things like go kayaking or go on hikes or something. But a lot of the people that we know in the community if there wasn’t going to be drinking or drugs, especially drinking they didn’t know if the wanted to be involved. But we were still trying to come through and have that more drug-free atmosphere and have people learning to enjoy, just to be able to enjoy and not always have to have alcohol of drugs or something to feel like they were having a good time. S.M. Were you involved in any radical movements or any assimilationist movements back in the day? R.O. No, well I’m from a small town and there was nothing radical going on in Flatwoods. Probably the most radical was Billy Ray Cyrus is from my hometown of flatwoods. So, he is probably, well Miley then is the most radical thing that has come out of there. She wasn’t really born there but her roots there out of flatwoods. D.E. So, what was the most comparative moments of being brought to Lexington and having these pride parades and all these big experiences, compared to coming out of a little town with nothing? R.O. Well one it was an eye opener, I was kind of getting into it when I was in college and was starting to meet gay people and some of that, but in flatwoods like I said I didn’t know another gay person in flatwoods, there were people I thought were gay other than these older girls that I knew from playing softball and they wouldn’t let me hang around with them. I could never figure out where they were going. I often would catch them behind trees kissing or fighting or something like that and then they would walk off or tell me to get lost or something. So, I was having that, that was kind of the experience back then because it was so closeted. And to now have all of this that is out there, the pride parades being able to be out and about and be proud of who you are. I think it just enriches all of us. And helps provide that, you know, “hey, I’m still human” gays are the only ones that have been discriminated against because of who the love. You know and I think that some of the ignorant people out there find that they think that, of course they don’t refer to the bible in other instances but because the bible talks against homosexuality, but also I think that in those passages it was in those times we you would defeat an army and the men would have sex with the men to truly defeat them and so I think it was more of that the bible was talking about. Maybe I’m saying that because I don’t want it to say the other way, but you also have that interpretation of what was actually said or written, and it has been interpreted and interpreted and who knows what the actual writing was. So, I think that people use that as a basis for them to be able to hate. S.M. I think that in general being discriminated against for just loving someone, think about that, right? About how a human being, just a regular other human being with discriminate and say “oh, I don’t like you because you love this person” D.E. It’s nonsensical. S.M. To me that is, in itself is ignorance and that person does not know better. Because where I am from, you just don’t do that. You don’t discriminate; you don’t see color and you don’t see difference because you are one, that’s what we are. That’s my rant. Let’s see, if you could be a part of any sort of success through LGTBQ movements in the span of your life, what would you chose? R.O. Well one I would like to go back and be a part of Stonewall, yes, I think that would be so cool. Another thing that I would like to do would be the signing of the marriage act, the equal marriage act. So, those are two events that I would really would have liked to be better, or more of a part of now. Yes, with the marriage act I was doing some supportive rallying, but nothing that was really radical. Like passing out papers or stickers or something like that. But those would be two events that I really would have liked to be a part of. S.M. So, when you heard about Stonewall and you heard all of this was going on how did you feel? R.O. Well, I don’t know. It was kind of an odd thing because it was so far away, so it wasn’t as real to me where I was, but it was like “good somebody had started to actually stand up, good someone is starting to stand up” they were saying that this was okay. I think it was kind of that start of being able to know and having input from others that this was okay, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. It was really not a choice. You are who you are, you’re born that way and people need to just get over it. S.M. How happy were you that you could reignite with these people? R.O. Well, I don’t know I never thought of it in those terms. S.M. That you, you know, you weren’t alone. R.O. Yeah, I mean it was a good feeling if it would have been something closer it would have had a bigger impact. I think it was still kind of something out there that you know you read about it and wonder is that really going on, or whatever and you don’t feel quite as much a part of that. But I don’t know I guess it was just good to know that someone was starting to be able to say “hey, this is who I am and there is nothing wrong with it.” D.E. So, what was one of your most memorable moments that you have in the LGBTQ community? R.O. Probably when we raised a million dollars for the Just Fund Kentucky and the judge had us to his house and we had a big celebration. The benefactor, I had meet him a few times before and he was there he actually had met the goal that we had set out to achieve and it still goes on today, but it’s not quite the same. The leadership that we had then has stepped down because the goal was met. They still do a fundraiser every, I don’t think that they do it every year it, think it’s every other year, still trying to put a little bit more money into that pot. Because when we met our goal he was already paying in on investments so we also getting the interest on the payments. So that was really a pretty bit deal. I think just being pride, just being able to walk around during a pride festival and say “this is who I am. This is my community, good, bad or indifferent this is my community.” D.E. That had to feel amazing to do that. R.O. Yes, just to be able to, you know, you’re not having to be closeted anymore. I don’t really care what people think now and back in the day when I was dumber and young. And you know when you’re trying to come out that felt very oppressive and thinking “I can’t live my life like other people can”. You can see a man and a woman walk down the street, they can walk and hold hands, or they can peck each other on the cheek or something and I can’t do that with my girlfriend. S.M. That’s sad. R.O. I don’t have that same freedom, I don’t have that same… I don’t want to say right, because that’s not what I’m looking for. But I can’t show the same kind of affection that a heterosexual couple could show in public. There was just something truly oppressive about that. Different rules for different people. S.M. So, I know that we had briefly talked about the difference between the community then and now, I just want to dig deeper into see, how do you view the activism then compared to now. R.O. I think that they had to be very brave back then because I know a lot of the people that were retaliated against, I don’t know what the retaliation rates was, but I know the history I know that people lost their jobs, families. I think that was one of the big things back then was that you stood a good chance of losing your family if you came out, because your family was going to say “oh, no. This isn’t right, and I don’t want to have anything to do with you.” My situation was that wasn’t going to happen. But you know the other thing that it did was you know I also had other things that I had to do after school, so I wasn’t out and being able to explore like kids can today. Knowing early on where you could find the people that are like you is very important. I think that sometimes when you are closeted and you’re searching and looking that feels very lonely a lot of times. Just trying to figure out how do you get to the next place? How do you get to the next step, when there is no one really to kind of pull you along? So, I think that the activist then were much, much braver than they are today. I think that the activist that we have today are still very important. I think that we still need to get the word out, I still think that we need to try and pull people in. I think that as I said earlier that what I have done is met people and gotten to know them and I have come out to them, but I have gotten to know them first. Instead of doing the more activism “hey I’m gay!”. I’m not the type of person that gets in your face about stuff. So, that was never really going to be a part of what I was going to do. Though there are sometimes that I like in high school or junior high that I wished that I had stepped up when someone one was being bullied, or some kid was being called a fag and I’m like “oh really, wait a minute, what?” I had a little different take on what they were saying but still being about to stand up. at that point I wouldn’t have known what to have said. What do you say? I don’t know, I’m assuming the kid is not from the reaction of the kid, I’m assuming he’s not. But at that point I didn’t have that comfortableness with myself I was still dealing with a lot of other things that were going on in my life, to have been able to stand up for someone else. Now did I occasionally? Yes, I felt that I could stand up for, but it wasn’t anything where it was being called fag or homo or whatever they might have been saying. S.M. I honestly agree with you, the had to have been very brave. We looked at Stonewall the documentary and you saw these people being pulled away by cops I mean dragged on the ground. That happens today but like just for having an opinion, you’re being dragged away. R.O. For who you love, you’re being dragged away. For who you love. You know not because you’re taking a stance not because you are protesting, not because you are trying to do something to someone else. But just because of who you are. D.E. You’re being pulled down and beaten because you have love. S.M. What they were doing, they were spraying them against the wall, and like now days I honestly commend people for going out and about, not saying that it’s safer now, you know more concise people they are walking here and doing this, you can’t do this you have to protect them. So definitely would agree. R.O. Well, and there are more channels today too, like you’ve got the humans rights commission, you know you’ve got things that were only just getting started back in the day. So, back in the day you didn’t have these things where they would try to come in and protect you. Because the either weren’t started, or they were just getting started up and didn’t have the power behind them to make much change. Now that’s a kind of a different situation that is what I think helped get the marriage act through was the human rights commission, you had the gay and lesbian groups. And you had things that were organized, back in the day I don’t think there was that organization. I don’t think there was as much money towards the causes as there is today. So, I think those kinds of things are making a big difference. Some people stood up and at Stonewall people were literally taking their own lives into their hands I think at times you’re getting beat over the head or who knows what’s going on or someone in the crowd has a gun and decides they don’t like you. When stonewall is happening people don’t know what other people in the crowd are going to do. S.M. That’s scary. D.E. So, let us go ahead and talk about place where you feel safe as a lesbian and what made them safe for you? R.O. Probably one of the safest places I felt was, for a while, I had a group of maybe about twelve or fourteen lesbians and we would meet and hang out with each other. We met in like Lebanon, Kentucky. So, we would go, and you would spend the night, or the weekend around other people and it was a great experience and it also kind of worked into taking your own power, women power, the lesbian power whatever. But we could come together and the group, at that point, was pretty easy to get along with. So, you could go and kind of forget about the other world out there, you could just to where you were with other people, other lesbians. You could hear their stories see if there was something going on that you were interested in, it was just that way. It’s different when you’re in the city. Because the country girls need to have people come in and visit and stay the weekend. When you’re in the city you do things day to day, or night to night. So, it’s a little bit different kind of atmosphere. It was just a good comradery. I think at one time there were a couple of parties that we had that were probably 40 – 50 lesbians that attended. It was just a good place to be. A good experience. S.M. So, you felt safe in numbers? R.O. Safe in numbers, yes. We were out, and we weren’t hurting anybody. There wasn’t anyone to complain about what was happening. We were able to do what we wanted. You know, we could dance with other women and nobody was going to say, “oh look at them!”. So, you weren’t getting the gawking, people making comments. You weren’t getting people that were looking at you funny or what ever people want to do. S.M. Now that you bring that up, isn’t it sad, now a day if two women are dating, or even dancing its like “Oh, look at them!” or it still happens today. Because men want to see you know, women grind on each other, they want to see that part of it. But to say this is my girlfriend… isn’t that…? R.O. Yeah, it’s still a part of that ignorance where we have not reached, not been able to educate. That is part of where the work needs to be done. D.E. And I find it, a little personal story, when I was in high school I went to my senior prom and I went with my friend and neither of us had dates, so we went together as friends. At the end of the night we were joking around, and we were slow dancing with each other. And we almost got kicked out of prom. R.O. I could not have got to my prom as a gay woman. They would not have let me in. I could not have brought a girl to the prom. If my cousin would have been around he could have taken me to the prom. But I had no interest in going. There wasn’t really anyone around that said “hey, Rachel, you need to do this.” So, I didn’t go, I didn’t have an interest in that. But I couldn’t have taken a woman, but now you can. So, that’s also another change. Schools have opened that up. had I tried to show up with a woman and walked into the gym into the prom, I would have been turned away. S.M. In 2014 in Boone county it was the same way, I couldn’t go with my best friend and she is out. The thing is she was a dyke, or she is. And I look like this. For us to even go together, the fact that they, in their mind was like, they’re a couple. We don’t want that. When we weren’t a couple, she’s my best friend. R.O. But the assumption was there. S.M. You know the must be together. Because if Elizabeth is gay, Sarah must be gay too. R.O. Guilt by association. D.E.

That’s how it was with my friend Carla, which I ended up going with her, well not with her, but she, because they were like “Who are you taking?” and she said, “I’m taking Destini, I’m buying these tickets for me and Destini.” And the woman that was selling the tickets was like “Oh, are you a couple?” and I was standing right beside her, I was like “I’m sorry what?” “because we don’t really support that kind of thing…” and my jaw hit the floor. I looked at her and said, “We are not a couple!”. Because we have had screaming matches across the cafeteria because we were friends where you would fight one day and the next day you love each other again. So, just to have someone look at me and my best friend, at the time, and be like “Are you together?” R.O. And where does that come from? S.M. I just don’t understand why must it be that? If one person out of the two is gay the other must be gay. I don’t think I need to, my sexuality I am like, I’m different from my family. I have learned a lot growing up. so, yes, I am bisexual, and Elizabeth is gay, but it doesn’t mean that at that point that I was out or that I was or knew I was. RO: If somebody really offended me if they call me sir are not paying attention to me and they say can I help you sir. No I don't think they're really offended me I think they're just not paying attention. Now if they are actually. Trying to offend me well it's going to take more than that.

RO: You know I mean you know at one time maybe. But you know at this point it's like you know I just laugh about and go I'm like you know. Well you know whatever.

SM: You know I can't go back. So you're talking about how you were safe when you were going out to the country and you guys had your group together. Have you ever dealt with like an unsafe situation where law enforcement now. Have you ever. Like you know walking on the street you know cops there and they look at you funny or anything like that.

RO: No I don't even think I've gotten the funny looks if I have I didn't really pay that much attention to it.

RO: I learned long ago to let people think whatever they're going to think.

RO: And if a find somewhere or somebody was looking at me and if the cops were looking I'm walking around to say hey what's going on here is or something I don't even know about it. Yeah.

RO: So I've never really been in those kind of situations. I basically live my life. Without that type of interaction or having to do something. The only interaction I've really had with police officers has been made come to LGBTQ events and I've probably talked with the officer that comes in and you know they're coming with that community spirit and trying to help him keep problems from arising and that kind of thing. That's probably been the most contact I've had other than I did have a go. I grew up with who was the deputy who was the sheriff's deputy. And when I was doing investigations for child abuse.

RO: I would just call her and she said definitely yes with me if I won she was going to protect me. So that was really kind of cool so I've never really have been the other side of that.

RO: Fortunate for that I did. I did. I think I think with the activism and some of that that's in your face.

RO: And I think sometimes that's just a little too much I don't know. For me I don't think that that works as well because I think any time somebody comes up to me and they're trying to force something on me I'm going to rebel against that I'm not going to want to accept that same approach to stand up and understand why people feel the need to do what. But that's not the approach for me. So I think those kind of. Attempts to teach people only make people angry and only make them want to lash out. Whereas I think with a softer approach you've got that opportunity to do some education. You've got that opportunity for them to say I'm a person like you are.

DE: We often talk about LGBTQ are just the people next door we are just like anyone else.

DE: It's actually a really big topic in our class and we often talk about is that LGBTQ are just the people next door and they are just people like everybody else. Have you ever felt that. There is a separation between LGBTQ and normal.

RO: Heterosexual. Yeah definitely definitely I think we talked about it but I think we're walking down the street unable to display public affection. So that also probably is is I'm not that fond of public displays because of the way that I grew up. So I mean but you know still there I was those moments when you know something really special and you would like to do that. And it's like you know I catch you. Oh but I think it's I think a lot of people who are heterosexual feel like that they are above that they are more elitist that they are better than people who are gay because of their sexual that there's more heterosexual male or gay people. So it kind of puts them in a little bit different class and I think sometimes they can look down on. Not everybody not everybody but you know I think there are those people. Look it's privilege. Probably that's what I'm footboard privileges privilege privileges just like you know why. What used to be the white man's privilege. You know they had their sexual privilege. And if you are otherwise you're not privileged you know. So I think only knows miles from them has been beneficial in having some of these people that were very gay to have gay children. You know I think that also comes of in terms some some cranks and turning some things when it was happening in their own families and that they had been very active and very vocal. Yeah. No no no know not liking the devil or whatever. Right.

SM: Yeah that's right, it's under your nose very under your nose and maybe you didn't want to see it that maybe you didn't want to say it but you're going to see it.

SM: Some good goodness. So we talked about places where you felt safe. Were there any thing you can remember where you were not safe.

RO: I think sometimes in going with a smaller group and trying to find some of the bars because you're going down dark alleys. You know you're going you're knocking on his door. I don't know who's behind that door. So it was a little different for me I think some of those kind of things. I think sometimes being late at night either myself or a date or a small crowd and you know I always have that awareness about where I am and what I'm doing and what's going on around me. But I think sometimes those things take some time when we get the national news broadcasting things or you know that day after day I think sometimes you wonder you know what will have happened here. Yes we know it could happen here. Will it happen here.

SM: Do you feel that LGBTQ, the L, their at more of a risk than G.

RO: I do. We don't hear anybody taking heterosexuals out and time them to offend. Like Matthew Shepard we don't hear people taking heterosexual cop or and arresting them or telling them that they shouldn't be seeing each other or have anything to do with that with each other. I think there's still that danger. I think the danger comes from the people that one that either don't want to know or they don't.

RO: And I think there's a difference in that because those that don't know can be educated those that don't want to be educated those people are too quick to sometimes think violence is the answer in whatever form that may be.

RO: Just because but just because I'm a gay person does that mean I can't walk down the street just because I'm a gay person does that mean that I can't. Won't one thing she talked about two special beds was fairness in Lexington when they were able to have fairness and so you couldn't be discriminated for housing and jobs. So that was another moment I just thought I'm sorry. I'm getting a little out of order but I think that. Some people feel very justified and if you're different that they can hurt you. Now I don't understand that type thinking but I think sometimes people think like Matthew Shepard getting tied to the Pentagon and others have gotten dragged by trucks I think he might have gotten dragged time to defend him. Senseless violence just for violence sake just because of you. Thank you love. They may not even know for sure but they think you love someone that they think it's something you should do. I think that dynamic and violence and United States compared to other places is it's gross because.

SM: For example there was a lesbian who was burnt in her car in New York the other day. She actually was not gay.

DE: They found out that she just appeared to be gay but was not. Wow. And I mean and you can place it's such a centralized LGBT community.

SM: To have someone attacked her that is beyond belief.

RO: That's right. That's what I was like. Like I'm trying to understand like you said.

RO: From my perspective or how I feel. I feel like a lot of women. In the United States are attacked based on race and sexuality. I'm not saying it's more than men because I don't know. But I hear a lot of.

RO: I would venture that lives more than men because women are seen as vulnerable or weaker. Yeah we're weaker supposedly we're. You know so I think it's a kind of goes back to that mentality again of disrespect.

RO: Probably very low self-esteem. I don't like how I live. I'm not the one you love my wife before I get to use looks like it's just some fancy and grand and. Whatever. So I'm going to shoot you or I'm going to beat you up or. Heaven forbid burn you in a car. You know I think that. I think. President Trump is also probably not helped the situation because I think in his campaign where he was rallying and he was after the masses to take care of certain things. I think that kind of gave these. Militia type groups permission to do whatever they wanted.

RO: Oh yeah those home grown boys I think are the probably the most dangerous that we have in the United States because you just don't know what they're going to do you don't know what's going to set them up on us outside. And I think. In the United States. Women are definitely you know a risk for. A. President. To say certain things and to give voices where voices should not be I think. But on the other hand let's look at the world in Poland being a lesbian hugging and touching your arm is a. Being gay.

SM: Hugging and touching your boyfriend it's not OK you are going to be beaten for it by the males, the females are said to be more open than the males.

RO: They feel that they need to assert that dominance.

RO: You know that women women are much more nurturing in our nature. We're much more accepting of things we're much more accepting of what our kids are doing or not to.

RO: So I think that's always the trial ground as well as talk to mom first time that you talked to that later you talked to mom and dad.

DE: Later as we talked to mom first at. So speaking about our current president and our political views. On You Have The. You are well aware of the Orlando massacre that happened on and the fact that. Our. Governor decided to declare is not a crime.

DE: And to also state the shooting was not a gay club.

DE: That was a hefty eye-roll which I understand because I looked up the website for the Facebook page of the club. And unlike the little information section I was.

DE: gay club.

DE: So how do you feel and the response of our government towards that.

RO: I don't blame the sanctioning violence against anyone but I especially think that what we're looking to special populations that we need to be careful what we're saying and not incite people who already have a tendency toward that violence toward gays. It could be gays it could be women it could be prostitutes it could be whatever group. That's not what we need from our government. The government should provide services that should. Well first of all keep it safe. Second of all should go first I should burn the country keep it safe. Not incite people to create one sort of poor be violent toward others. I think it was a horrible incident and I think it was definitely a hate crime. How can it not be a hate crime.

RO: You know and to have somebody in a position of power get up and show it works is exactly what he's doing.

RO: You know any time they stand up and say oh well you know no one in the world knows that. We thought we saw the video on TV we saw what they were saying and we heard the news report. We can check it out we can find out yes it is it was a gay club and somebody comes in and does the massacre. Yes that's a hate crime.

DE: It was also refused. It was a terrorist attack. And I would like to add that when. They later found that he was. Partnered with ISIS. So a lot of that. I think was.

RO: Taken back. And I think you know the media oftentimes doesn't report on our homegrown terrorist. And. Whether they got linked to a known terrorist group or not. We don't have these homegrown terrorists here that are just wanting to spew hate and discontent. That's something they know why they want to get rid of it so they don't have to see it. So they think violence or killing whatever is the way to go about that. And I don't think I don't think we should ever condone any type of violence especially not from our government.

DE: That's not the role. That's not random.

RO: You know our governor is quote unquote a Christian man. But you know sometimes they can also be the most damaging things that they are saying or doing.

RO: Honestly that's what I'm just going to say because the UNICEF United States has actually looked at as a predominantly Christian country when you think about it. So when I heard about this and I heard what he was doing I looked at it as OK when you know you're trying to take power away from the situation. It was LGBTQ crap.

DE: And then on top of all that to say it wasn't a terror attack.

DE: Are you trying to hide your embarrassment that the fact that it was a terror attack and the fact that it is about to take you out or you're just not going to do anything about it.

RO: There you go.

RO: That's that's kind of where I was. Well you know if we if we didn't I was against gays that we do not just Arabs we have to do anything.

SM: You just don't get it Chekhovian shot every hand and you know what is something that these people didn't hurt and you know it just you know we don't know why we are honestly taking so much out of the situation to teach the community to teach this entire the United States that OK look you know it was a terror attack.

SM: We have these people in our country and they were just like us in the LGBTQ community. Oh ok. Yeah you know. No.

RO: They were just regular people. No they were specifically taking that name and that you just you know let's see how we can put it back into our books. The other thing that it does if you're denying that it is a hate crime and that someone's penalty takes that takes the punishment away.

RO: Because punishment will us it's not.

DE: He can only skip terrorists questions. You read the stats about.

RO: The hate crimes against certain members of certain societies. And this was reported by the Federal Bureau of Investigations. What did the statistics mean to you. Wow

SM: It's very scary. It is it's it's very scary to think in in 2018 that we still have people that feel this way and a lot of them get away with it. That's the other side of it. Somewhere along the way with the violence that they. Perpetrate on whether it's gays Jews women whatever the group is but a lot of those people get away with.

DE: I think it's a very horrifying that really kind of makes you think makes you stop thinking it's kind of want to start looking around them around me you know kind of watch what you're doing. I hope it doesn't. I hope it never gets to the point that it's shutting people back up.

RO: I hope is something that fires people up and says we still have work to do. We still need to combat this. I think we need to. You know to me I think it's a matter of. Let's quit talking about OK. We know. The girl is the tool. That kills people. But is the person behind the gun that. It's either their mindset their values their. Just trust their prejudiced whatever.

RO: That really causes the violence. Now should assault rifles be made broadly available. No I don't think so. I don't think so. I think handguns and if you were a hunter and you or your family hunted you have rifles. I think those are okay I do not think assault.

RO: You do not need a semi automatic rifle. The only reason they make those are to kill people right.

SM: Today they just released that 21 guns are allowed. And that in Florida I can't remember but I vaguely remember seeing it today that they passed that bell that these guns are allowed in schools.

RO: Wow. And you know we're looking for arming teachers. Well I didn't go to school with teachers and not go to school when they had medical factors. I didn't go to school when they changed the world. I didn't go to school when they had police officers or resource officers in the building. I didn't have anything bad. You know did we have kids that got in trouble we were there but we weren't. But we I guess we were a generation that I don't know. Wait wait we didn't have we didn't nor did we have the exposure to the drugs and alcohol that younger people today. So that's also different but we never had those kind of problems and I think part of it is we have to wait for them. Lawmakers are going to we are going to the people around us. We've moved away from them. You know the way back when when people had to help everybody go into their house. You know you had that sense of community because you're helping each other somebody needed something you were there for them if you had to it's something you gave that one you know because they say bring back for you. We've moved so far away from those interpersonal connections. That's where I think we solve these problems as we start getting people to come out to each other.

SM: You know I agree. I literally think that you know it's a mindset these days that oh OK I live by myself I mean my little space.

SM: No one comes saying you know those relationships like the fact that you know you can't walk across the street and just think hey how are you doing today.

DE: You know typically I don't have money harassing them.

DE: It was odd the other day because my neighbor was out like cleaning his motorcycle. Beautiful day and he was getting ready to ride. And I parked my car and got out and he was waving at me and I was like hey why are you waving at me and then I realized he comes here all the time when I talk to him.

RO: But anyway when we have become so unattached disconnected disconnected unattached you know how dare somebody come out and ask you for a cup of sugar anymore.

RO: There's a Kroger's down the street from me. And we threw that I think we've lost part of our humility part of our our sensibilities part of our. Willingness to try to help.

RO: Get we claim that we are so progressive you know working so great these days were better than you know in some aspects we are better than we were before.

SM: We're safe or I wouldn't define safer as better but. The thing is.

SM: What. At what cost are we better. What are we.

RO: Where are we. And when you when and when you look at the United States has much more violence a lot of the other ones that industrialized countries. You know we other countries don't have these things on the news every other night or two or three times a week or whatever the thing is we other countries don't deal with this type of violence like we've got the United States. And part of that becomes I think part of it comes from that privilege set in that mindset of I'm going to dominate. Now some that it's all just men. And there are some women that have those same gender to use them for whatever reason. But but we've gotten away from having the connection with the people that are around us. We don't have communities anymore. We have single houses. You know each house takes care pretty much takes care of kids. And sometimes you find something a little bit different but just as a larger picture we're very isolated. You know and the isolation is never bad. And when you're isolating people that also brings things to become more scary people become scary because you don't know. And if you do get a chance to to have those connections and I think any time you can bring people together and you get them talking I think that's how you solve a lot of the problems and we definitely know the fighting the violence either. I never think that's the answer that's always going to pop up that's always going to be there.

RO: But you know on the other side to look at that as well with his victims what they did. Nothing. In the land that they were in a bar they were having a good time. It was a Saturday Yeah you know some of these schools you know they were going to class they were doing what they were supposed to do. You know today I just had to watch an active shooter video. You know we have to watch as ever so off I guess once a year or something. And you know and I'm just sitting there thinking you know.

RO: Gee I think you know somebody came in and you know where when I'm really high because when I'm the locks on their office doors.

RO: So what kept lock the door so it's not going to be good to stay about. But why should we be thinking about that. You know why should we. Why are we not at villages taking care of the kids. Why is it so difficult for us to find places for these kids homes for these kids. Northern Kentucky stepping up and taking care of the kids in Kentucky.

SM: Honestly to do with love we have people fighting for their love for what they love what they like doing. It's all about love. Why is something that is supposed to be so pure.

SM: And just innocent something that you know is innate. You love people Love. Why can't a country like that is so industrialized. Why can't we love.

RO: That's my style.

RO: And part of that is because we still have those smaller groups. And I do think it's a smaller portion of our population. The militia like groups that just feel like they can do whatever they want to do in our time today. The president who sanctioned that.

SM: You know there is a bill that is in the talking that you can discriminate against.

SM: You know someone coming into a hospital based on their religious beliefs. You hear about that.

RO: I have heard about that just like some of the shop owners that have decided in the end that they will not serve gay people but the cake maker wouldn't make a cake for a gay couple for the male couple. Oh that's business. And when you're a public business you serve the public that's whoever walks in that door. Doesn't matter what their sexuality is. Why does that come in dividing the cake. Why what does that mean. I want to go to an antique shop. Why is that. Why did that come into play. And does that mean. Because if they kick tell about me I get to buy things. Do I want my money going there is where I come from. No I don't know if you're a business that is open to the public it should serve the public. If you are a hospital that offers medical care you should all for animal care. Did you ever walk through that door. You should not be thinking about your religion. He raised you.

RO: It goes back to why are we thinking about this why are we thinking about oh Seiki wise you know someone walked in what got guy. Where do I have time. Why do we think about that. Why do we have to think about oh stop pursuing gay.

SM: Maybe I shouldn't serve them. Why. What is this. What are we looking. What does that have to do with business. Why.

RO: Yeah I mean why does that have to do. Whether you're in the food industry or whether you're in the medical industry where does that come into play.

DE: We are all humans and it all should come out here because they're human. We are providing humanitarian aid. That time I checked.

DE: The amount on a dollar does not change depending on who is holding the bill on not as a policy. I've brought in to my work.

DE: Is because good for you. I'm not going to look at somebody and be like well you like men and here do you know you can't have a cheeseburger. Or want to work even when I worked a Babies R Us.

DE: We had gay couples come in all the time and they're like Oh we're here shopping with our surrogate like we have a baby step. And I had a manager that was like you might want to take this elsewhere and I said don't worry I'll check him out. You don't have to worry about that.

DE: And I shop with them to me and start and I take it to corporate and they really fail that's just the way he is.

DE: And why should that be the attitude. Well surely I have to be hey that's not what we do here. You know we want the greenbacks. We don't care who they come from. We want we don't care for you for dirty don't give the wadded up. We don't care if they're part of the press the songs not counterfeit. Oh my goodness.

SM: Thank you. Very exciting very insightful. Did you want to add anything since this is going to be.

RO: You know I guess I guess we've just been kind of talking about I guess I'll just kind of summarize them. It doesn't matter where you live. It's just a quarter that you do love.

SM: Do you have any advice to people who are not yet out morning. Well I think first of all let's first of all it's a very personal decision to make.

RO: And I think that they need to talk with whoever they can find that they can talk with. And Tom's right. And they need to do that from themselves. I think it is a process. It's more of a journey you take the steps and then you end up where you're going. I think sometimes people come out a little too soon and they're still in the questioning phase and are not really sure. And I think you know walking around have not said this and some of us you know this has to be true but maybe it's not you know just taking the time to get to know yourself. I think taking the time to pull your support around to wherever that might be and then moving from that don't be in a hurry because your whole life ahead of you. And when the time is right you know. And that's for some people it's not as important as it is for others. You know and I think at best part one has to be considered and if it's something that you're struggling with then you need to talk to people that can help you that will listen and then follow your heart.

SM: Thank you.

RO: Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you.