COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN KHAYELITSHA AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE ONE

Richard Bosman

Date: 6 February 2014 Source: Pages 1900-2013 of Commission transcript

COMMISSIONER: We will now move on to our next witness who is Mr Bosman. MR KATZ: Yes he is here Commissioner. He is here and he’s got no objection to taking the oath. COMMISSIONER: That’s good to know. And he knows that these are public proceedings and he doesn’t mind – he knows these are public proceedings? MR KATZ: Yes I know but you usually ask the witness whether they wish to take the oath. COMMISSIONER: I know. I also ask the witness whether they know they are public proceedings so I thought seeing as how you were going to tell us, you could confirm that as well. Mr Bosman if you’d like to take a seat over here. Good afternoon Mr Bosman. I apologise, we’ve been keeping you waiting for over 24 hours now. MR BOSMAN: Two days. COMMISSIONER: Yes, but thank you very much for making yourself available. We are grateful and I know that you have no difficulty with your name being made public and your evidence being ma de public. MR BOSMAN: None whatsoever, I have no objection to taking the oath also. COMMISSIONER: And you have no objection to taking the oath according to your counsel. MR BOSMAN: None whatsoever Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: And would you repeat after me? RICHARD BOSMAN – (sworn states) COMMISSIONER: Mr Katz? MR KATZ: Thank Madam Commissioner. EXAMINATION BY MR KATZ: Mr Bosman you are testifying on behalf of the City of Cape Town in your professional capacity as the Executive Director of the Director ate of Safety and Security or the Safety and Security Directorate of the City of Cape Town, is that correct? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MR KATZ: Now the City of Cape Town have instructed Fairbridges Inc, and particularly Ms Deidré le Fevre who is sittin g on my right, who has instructed me to represent The City in these proceedings, and we have sat – either us or a professional assistance from Fairbridges and we’ve provided you with a snapshot of some of the evidence that has been led in these proceedings and you read in the newspaper about the proceedings that have taken place in this Commission, is that correct? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MR KATZ: Now the evidence that you are going to give today I understand will be divided into three broad chapters; there will be an introductory chapter, a chapter dealing with the law and then thirdly a chapter dealing with the facts. Now the chapters are not hermetically sealed and perhaps as your evidence develops they will run into each other, but what is hoped is that you will give at least in the introductory chapter, the Commission a view of why it is and how it comes about that The City is involved in this Commission and the extent of that involvement, why it is that it is you and you particularly that is repre senting The City or giving evidence on behalf of The City in this Commission, and then thirdly, which I will touch upon after that introduction, a comment from you as to why it is you said in an affidavit provided to the Commission on the 6 th December 2013, that there exists what you called a good working relationship between your directorate and the Provincial Commissioner’s office. So what I’d like you to do to start with is have regard to the affidavit that you had handed to the Commissioner or that we h ad handed to the Commissioner on your behalf, The City’s behalf and specifically talk to two aspects upfront; one is who you are and that one we’ll find in paragraph 7, and then after that, if you could speak about The City’s stance to the Commission. In l ooking at The City’s stance I would want you to touch upon the terms of reference and answer questions which may come up as to why it is that The City aren’t giving all the answers to all the questions that might come. So if you could start off with talkin g about those three issues; (1) who are you, (2) what is The City’s stance to the Commission and (3) your directorate’s relationship with SAPS. MR BOSMAN: Firstly my name is Richard Gavin Bosman, born and bred in Cape Town. I started working for The City of Cape Town in 1985 after matriculating in ’84. I started working as a beach constable, as a law enforcement officer. I studied while at my tenure in The City through a bursary. I worked in different municipalities – Stellenbosch, Overstrand, I worked at the Provincial Government. MR KATZ: Mr Bosman what did you study? MR BOSMAN: I did a Bachelor of Law at Unisa. MR KATZ: Bachelor of Law at Unisa. So you’ve got some understanding when you look at legal documents, what they may mean, so if you have rega rd to the proclamation by the Premier of the terms of reference of this Commission you will have some understanding of what those terms mean. MR BOSMAN: Yes I would. I left City of Cape Town in 2002 and rejoined in 2008 as the Chief of Law Enforcement and the current position I hold has been since the 1 st April 2009. So I’ve been in this job just over four years. In terms of The City’ approach to the Commission has always been that we would assist as far as possible in any way and in that sense that was why I’ve been asked to also depose to an affidavit to present as much facts as possible, and I think one of the other reasons is the fact that I’m in the policing arena and I felt that we could make a contribution in some way based on the interaction we had with the SAPS. MR KATZ: Do you know that there was a complaint by both SAPS and the complainant organisations that the Premier had not included The City within the Commission’s terms of reference? Do you know about that? MR BOSMAN: Yes I am aware of that. I was part of the group of officials initially asked to respond to some request that the Premier had made based on certain complaints. I assisted with the input into some of those complaints. MR KATZ: The input to whom? MR BOSMAN: In response to the Premier in respect of complaints that she had received. MR KATZ: So The City as I understand it, co -operated with the Premier? MR BOSMAN: That was prior to the Commission yes, they co -operated. MR KATZ: I think the Premier made an affidavit to that effe ct in the High Court and Constitutional Court proceedings. MR BOSMAN: Yes. As I indicated I was asked to provide certain information in some respect also from my side. MR KATZ: Right. Now, if I understood your evidence, you have been asked to provide the Commission with the evidence that the Commission seeks because of your position, is that right? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MR KATZ: What exactly do you mean by that? Why is it you rather than for example utilities or housing or some other directorate w ithin The City? MR BOSMAN: Well for the bulk of my career I have always had law enforcement agencies with me, whether I work at Stellenbosch or Overstrand, I always had traffic police with me, law enforcement with me, emergency services. And also having been in The City and very involved in the initial setup of the City Police in 2001 I think the view was that I’ve had a fair amount of experience and exposure. And also I sit on the Provincial Joints Committee, which is set up in terms of the SAPS Act, so I interact with the Provincial Commissioner directly and his deputies and I think they felt that with the experience I had and the exposure I will be able to make some sort of contribution to the Commission. MR KATZ: Yes. There is another reason that I was thinking of and correct me if I’m wrong, but it was really that within The City your directorate is the one that deals with the issues that the Commission is confronted with rather than some other directorate. MR BOSMAN: That is correct. We deal with th e uniform policing issues in The City itself and that directly dovetails into the Commission’s terms of reference dealing with policing issues in Khayelitsha. MR KATZ: And then following on from that question, if one has regard to what you say in paragraph 3 of your affidavit, you say that there’s certain documentation and information which falls under The City’s control. That you have obtained these documentations or information from other directorates which deal with aspects outside of your directorate’s mandate. Yet you have given bits and pieces of evidence about those other aspects, but you are not in a position if I understand it correctly, to for example speak to The City’s sanitation programme. That’s outside your mandate. MR BOSMAN: I also won’t be able to speak to it from any substantial point of view, it’s not my line function. We all have our different focuses but I wouldn’t be able to speak to it with any form of authority in any way. MR KATZ: The other point that you will know is that in my opening statement to this Commission on behalf of The City I made the point that there are broad and generalised observations made in some of the documentation before the Commission which seem or appear to criticise The City for it’s lack – for want of a better word – of provision of certain socio -economic services or your services outside The City’s policing services. MR BOSMAN: H’n. MR KATZ: You understand that. And what I said in my opening statement, that The City did not intend to cross -examine those witnesses but rather that the Commission would have regard to the evidence The City had put up in five volumes which are before the Commission which are detailed to the extent necessary and extensive to the extent necessary of The City’s programmes and it’s rollout in respect of socio -economic services. Are you aware of that opening statement? MR BOSMAN: Yes I’m aware of it and I’m also aware that I think five files were handed in to Commission which contain a certain amount of information for the Commission’s information. MR KATZ: Now may I ask that you turn to the terms of reference of the Commission? It’s in the proclamation in the Provincial Government Gazette dated 24 August 2012. It’s a proclamation of the Premier of the Western Cape. Do you have it? It’s proclamation number 9/2012. MR BOSMAN: I do. MR KATZ: Now in item 4 of the proclamation the terms of reference are listed and there are five sub parts to item 4. The first tells the Commission that it is: “(a) To investigate complaints received b y the Premier relating to allegations of inefficiency of the South African Police Service stationed at various places within Khayelitsha and (b) a breakdown in the relations between the community and members of the SAPS stationed at those stations.” You would agree with me that there’s no requirement to investigate anything to do with The City. MR BOSMAN: That is correct, based on a reading of this there’s nothing referring to The City. MR KATZ: Yes. Then (2), item 2 of that item 4 says: “The investigation must include various items and investigation into the allegations and the investigation into the reasons for and causes of the inefficiency and breakdown in relationship if found to exist.” Is The City or are you in a position to assist the Commission in re spect of items 4.1 and 4.2? Because really what you are doing here on behalf of The City, is here to co-operate and assist the Commission. Are you in a position to comment on whether the South African Police Services or the SAPS stationed in Khayelitsha are inefficient and whether there has been a breakdown in relations between the community – and when I ask the question, I want you to bear in mind two things; one is, there has been a wealth of evidence led up to this point before the Commission, which is r eally just past the halfway mark of its first phase of sittings, and the evidence from the police hasn’t yet been given, and that’s going to be coming in, in the next two weeks. But are you in a position to assist the Commission on that issue? Bearing in m ind also what you said in paragraph 62 of your affidavit. MR BOSMAN: I would not be in a position to do so, and that the functions of the SAPS and our staff differ substantially. MR KATZ: And you confirm what you’ve said in paragraph 62 of your affidavi t, which is that your directorate has a good working relationship with the Provincial Commissioner’s office. Now I think maybe of some use to the Commission is whether you could assist the Commission in its findings and recommendations if it found that there is inefficiency and a breakdown in relations, can you in any way comment or make recommendations as to how that inefficiency and breakdown – and I use the words of the terms of reference – that’s item 4(iii)(b), how that inefficiency and breakdown may b e alleviated or remedied. Going forward one would obviously have to know the reasons for the breakdown or the causes of the breakdown but to the extent that this Commission finds that there are these problems that have been complained about by the Social J ustice Coalition and other groups, are you in a position to assist, and if so, could you perhaps offer the Commission some of your thoughts, given you broad experience in policing in general from a beach constable in 1985, a law degree and all the way to the Executive Director of the Directorate of Safety and Security? MR BOSMAN: I think yes, The City should, we should make a commitment to assist. The City is a partner with the SAP in this arena, albeit in a limited respect. I think The City should assist, we are a sphere of government. We should be making every effort to assist to improve the situation definitely. MR KATZ: And with that you may have reference to Section 152(i)((d) of the constitution which, as an object of local government you have the du ty to promote a safe and health environment. MR BOSMAN: I think that’s a foundation for local government in the constitution. There’s about four objectives I think, one of which is a safe and healthy environment. MR KATZ: Now perhaps you can assist the Commission by outlining some ideas that you may have, and they are just ideas, they are just recommendations that the Commission has to make to the Premier, but your role here is to assist and co-operate with the Commission and it’s in my view, The City’s view will be of some benefit to the Commission in making recommendations to the Premier as to what steps could be taken to remedy or alleviate the defects if they are to be found. MR BOSMAN: I’ve sat here for the past two days and I think most of the recommendations or most of the issues go around people, processes and systems, and I think for any organisation, any large organisation, any improvement that they want to make in terms of people, in terms of processes as well as systems is important. Obviously one would need to know what the systemic problems are in that. In some cases some of the systems might just need tweaking, but in some cases it might need to have a complete overhaul or complete rethink of how things (indistinct). And I joined Cape Town i n 2008 again and took over in 2009 and we had to review a lot of our processes and systems as well as look at people that we were recruiting, how we were recruiting, what we should be doing. It has taken a long time and it’s an ongoing process, but I think that if one were to look at assisting SAPS in any way, then one would have to look at those things; your people, your processes and your systems. Those are core business processes and the people who manage those business processes are integral to making t hings work. Like any major organisation your people are important and that’s not just a comment I make glibly; the people are important, who they are, what they are, the calibre of what they do, how they do it, are they driven to do it. Your systems are im portant to make sure that not only you meet the legal framework within which you operate but that you can give effect to the mandate which you need to do. And between the SAPS, the SAPS are not an agency on their own like The City. You need to work with other spheres of government, other agencies. There’s got to be some sort of a seamlessness between the two of them to make sure that things can cross over from the one to the other without too much of an effort or without you burdening the other one. So I th ink those are important things that one would deal with. But obviously you need to know what the problems are. Some things might be easier to fix than others, some things might take the longer term process, but that’s something we need to commit to and ac tively set up a time frame, set up certain targets and indicators and see how far one goes in terms of the process. MR KATZ: Now I’d like you to focus in concluding this introductory chapter on The City’s relationship with SAPS. And I’d like you to expand your paragraph 62 to talk for example of the canine unit, the equestrian unit, and I also want you to mention – I want to mention, you know and there have been suggestions through interviews with various persons employed within your fire department that t hey have difficulties working with SAPS. Let me just inform the Commission that there are certain witnesses who the Commission would have wanted to call but have chosen not to give evidence for reasons that are outside The City’s mandate but I understand, and Mr Bosman can testify to it, what the problems are in respect of certain of the witnesses who the Commission would have wanted to call. But perhaps if you can just start off by talking about The City’s relationship with SAPS about the joint operations that you conduct, the equestrian unit for example, the canine unit Mr Bosman. MR BOSMAN: Just maybe as an introduction Commission, the directorate, we are just under 4 000 people in our directorate. We are broken up into two arms; the policing and enforcement services, which is traffic police, which is a traditional local government function, it has always been around, and then you’ve got law enforcement which focuses on bylaw issues mainly, and then of course Metro Police. Metro Police is a relatively new thing in South Africa. Cape Town only established the metro Police in 2001 after Jo’burg and Tshwane did theirs and then on the other side we’ve got the Fire Department. That’s our single biggest, largest department; we run 30 fire stations across The Cit y operating on a 24 hour basis with just over 1 200 staff. Then the Disaster Management component falls under our directorate as well as our Public Emergency Call Centre. But to focus on the policing side, as I indicated I have a good working relationship with the SAP at a provincial level and even at a lower level. I sit on the Provincial Joints which is an oversight committee set up in terms of the South African Police Service. We meet on a monthly basis and those are more issues around strategy in the p rovince. Also the annual police plan which is an absolute requirement for The City has to be completed every year. We submit such to the MEC for Community Safety as well as the MEC for Transport, but there’s a bit of an anomaly in the province; we don’t ha ve one MEC doing policing and transport, so we have to submit to both. And then of course we also submit it to the Provincial Commissioner. As part of this process there’s always an engagement with the PC’s office, either formal engagement or via documen ts, where they would then comment on our plan ...(intervention). MR KATZ: Mr Bosman let me just, let me stop you for a second. As you are testifying, your English evidence is being translated into isiXhosa and perhaps the interpreters would wish you to sl ow down, so that if you could perhaps speak a bit slower so that, if not for the assistance of the Commissioner or myself but for the assistance of the interpreters who have a duty to fulfil in that there are some persons who are not necessarily fluent in English and they would wish to have the evidence in as clear manner as possible. So perhaps slow down and make it easier for the interpreter. MR BOSMAN: Okay. If I can just go to the annual police plan; it’s an absolute requirement in terms of the SAPS Ac t. The City has to compile one, once a year and one of the main reasons is to ensure that the synergy between the SAPS and The City in terms of policing priorities. MR KATZ: Slow down. MR BOSMAN: There’s normally a structure engagement in this regard wit h the Provincial Commissioner or his deputies, and they would look at what we’re doing and say well, we don’t necessarily agree with this, you need to change this, dovetail this more with us. But the end result of that is that we end up getting a certificate from the police in which they indicate that they are happy that the plan that we have would assist visible policing in the province or in the Metro area, and that has been the case. I’ve started to engage, the first engagement I had with the SAPS was in August of 2008. The current Metro police chief was having some difficulties and I was then asked to assist with it, so that’s the sort of ongoing relationship we have with them. From an operational point of view it is not uncommon, if not normal, for the police to generally get hold of us and say they need assistance. The City has worked with the SAP on many projects in the last couple of years and the most recent ones would have been all the safety arrangements around ...(intervention). MR KATZ: Excuse me? MR BOSMAN: One of the most recent ones would have been the safety arrangements around the funeral for the late President Mandela, the festive season plan which I co-ordinate from The City’s side and then also issues around the (indistinct) World Cup. So there’s regular ongoing interaction not only at the level of events but on an operational basis. SAPS regularly call upon us to assist them in crime prevention operations and ops and we assist as far as possible. The City carries the cost for that in an y case so I sometimes joke that we are a cheap source of labour for them, because they don’t pay their overtime (indistinct) and if one looks at the service delivery protests recently, last year also, between the SAPS and The City it was a shared responsib ility between us. So there’s an ongoing relationship between us on a regular basis. MR KATZ: On the operational level, does that extend to Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: It covers the entire Cape Metro area. We have our Metro Police office in Khayelitsha number one and we also have a traffic office in Khayelitsha. In actual fact there’s one down the road in Lingelethu West. It’s opposite the police station, there’s a traffic office there and there’s also on in Khayelitsha. We’ve got fire stations here, so yes we , from a law enforcement and Metro Police point of view we have broken our Metro up into four areas – area north, area south, area east and area west. Khayelitsha would be area east and there is a permanent presence of staff in this area from both traffic, Metro and law enforcement. MR KATZ: Yes, now before I turn to the chapter on the legal issue arising, perhaps you could inform the Commission as to what you know about the witnesses that the Commission wish to call who are not going to be making themselves available as witnesses, and perhaps you can comment on whatever evidence it is that the Commission would want to hear from those witnesses. And it’s in particular there’s one, I think he is a fireman who the Commission had an interview with but he is n ot in a position to testify. Perhaps you can comment on what he would have said and your response to it. MR BOSMAN: Let me start with the fire rescue services. I’m aware that there was interviews, there were site inspections done at one of the fire statio ns and there were comments made from the staff that they felt that the SAP were not up to standard, they didn’t assist them in respect of responding to fires. There are instances and there have been instances where the fire department has gone out to fires and staff have been threatened, they’ve had the fire hoses cut, they’ve had personal items stolen out of the fire engines. MR KATZ: Is this by vandals in the community? Who are the ...(intervention). MR BOSMAN: This would be by vandals in the community, while the staff are busy fighting the fires. And concern was expressed that on occasions when they would go into what they would term as volatile areas, the SAPS would not be willing to assist. I indicated that that has been the case on some occasions but there’s also been cases where our own Metro Police have also not been able to assist due to other requirement. So I think if one puts the statement into context in terms of that, there have been instances where neither SAPS nor Metro have been able to assist the fire department in responding due to the nature of the response, but as an overall picture The City generally in Khayelitsha if there’s concerns around police assisting, then normally Metro Police from The City would jump on board. Alternatively SA PS would say “we don’t have any people available, send your own staff to assist if necessary. MR KATZ: Now I want to – yes, and the particular witness that you are referring to, do you know why he is not in a position to testify, the particular fireman a nd also the other witness that Ms Bawa mentioned? MR BOSMAN: I think from the fire side I think maybe there’s a misunderstanding as to the purpose of the Commission, and because the staff feel they are based at the fire station on a 24 hour basis, they ar rive there at 9 one morning, they leave at 9 the next day, they sleep there, they just have a perception that if they come and complain that the community might take it out on them. Staff do feel sometimes that the get blamed for a late response to a fire or they get blamed because one shack burns down because they are not extinguishing this one and they are doing that one, so sometimes there is that concern amongst the staff. MR KATZ: So you understand that there’s a sensitivity amongst some members of your staff to testifying in this Commission, whatever they may say in respect of whomsoever they testify. Is that your understanding? You’ve had contact with them, I haven’t. MR BOSMAN: Yes. No, I’ve spoken to the Divisional Head as well as the Fire Chief and then the other member concerned I even tried to phone him yesterday twice, I took a chance to go down to his office also but he has also expressed his concern that he wouldn’t want to be seen to be participating in something that could be seen to be anti the community. And I said well, my understanding is it’s not that way, it’s the other way around; the Commission wants to seek to assist and maybe find an amicable solution. But it’s difficult when people don’t pick up their phones and they don’t answer your calls and not even, they don’t even know your cell phone but they just don’t pick up. I tried phoning from somebody else’s cell phone; that never worked. MR KATZ: Now Mr Bosman in moving to the legal chapter, I just want to try to pick up on something that you’ve said and I imagine some of the other advocates will ask you questions about it; you earlier testified that your directorate or The City at any rate assisted the Premier before she established the Commission in tryin g to respond to the complaints by the complainant organisations. Now, so the first issue is that The City have operated with the Premier. The second is that The City are willing to co -operate with this Commission and if I understand it correctly from your evidence which you had given in the High Court and Mr Olivier in the Constitutional Court, The City will do whatever it can in partnership with SAPS and the community, and part of that community are the NGOs. The community is far wider than the NGOs as you understand it, but a certain portion of the community do constitute the NGOs. Could you just expand on whether my understanding is correct or if you want to add anything to what I’ve just said? MR BOSMAN: Your understanding is correct, it’s not uncommon for the community to engage The City directly. I mean I would make an example; people phone me on my cell phone if they have a problem. That’s the nature and extent of the interaction one sometimes has with the community so yes the commitment from The City there is to assist, to come to some sort of an amicable solution, but also I think to look at improving things. That’s the key issue. MR KATZ: And sometimes you might find competing interests attracting The City’s attention, and you were telling me earli er that, let’s say it has nothing to do with Khayelitsha but the distinction between the residents in Newlands who complain about your services when there’s a Western Province rugby match compared to those in Greenpoint when there’s a soccer match, and you ’ve got to balance those competing interests. MR BOSMAN: Yes, now we get it every day. I mean I did comment to you earlier I was interested to listen to the statistics around the policing ratio in Camps Bay as opposed to Khayelitsha. MR KATZ: You heard the evidence yesterday from Dr Lawrence on the question of the ratio of policemen per resident in Camps Bay compared to that in Khayelitsha, and the figures are quite startling. You heard the evidence. MR BOSMAN: Yes. MR KATZ: And do you want to comment on your response to that type of evidence? MR BOSMAN: It made me smile because I have people complaining in Camps Bay that there’s not enough law enforcement and Metro Police in Camps Bay. But there’s a police station up the road. But so it’s relative, peo ples’ complaints are relative in The City. Everyone looks at it from their point of view only and there’s always competing interest that one has to balance out. MR KATZ: Thank you. Now I want to turn to the legal issues that you can offer ...(intervention). MR ARENDSE: Sorry Madam Commissioner, may I just ask, the latest or the last population ratio figures that were handed up this morning, are they now part of the record, and whether Mr Katz is referring to the previous figures? COMMISSIONER: I’m sure they will be. We actually had a formal conversation about lots of other things but I can’t see that there has been any objection so I’m sure they will be. I’m not sure if Mr Katz has received them. MR KATZ: The proposition that Mr Bosman was testifying to wasn’t whether the figures are correct, it was the principle that there are competing and balancing interest, whether it be 38 to 1000 is not the point. COMMISSIONER: Exactly. No, I understand that, but Mr Arendse thank you for reminding me. We will discuss it ...(intervention). MR ARENDSE: And it wasn’t the proposition either, it was the word that was used that it was startling. Maybe the revised figures look less startling. COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. But I still notice of the revised figures that Camps Bay does seem to have the best ratio, but be that as it may, we’ll discuss that when we actually look at them. MR ARENDSE: Yes, we know who lives there. COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Katz continue. MR KATZ: Yes. Now Mr Bosman I want to turn to the legal aspects arising at the second chapter. Could you explain to the Commission what are the powers and limits to those powers under the constitution and under the law that The City has in respect of its safety and security mandate? MR BOSMAN: Just in terms of the co nstitution, I think as we mentioned one of the objects is the safe and secure environment amongst other stuff, accountable government, democratic and accountable governors. I think in terms of my area what is important and what we always preach for our sta ff is that there’s no unlimited powers to anybody, the powers that have been conferred upon you have been given within certain parameters and prescripts and those powers also indicate what the extent and limits of your authority are. Like for instance the Metro Police have been established in terms of the South African Police Services Act and very clear guidelines have been laid down in terms of what their powers are, what functions they can perform and in fact the National Police Commissioner can prescribe certain standards for them in terms of what they can and what they can’t do, which is not unusual in that sense. MR KATZ: Just on that Mr Bosman, we know that before the Commission are the various proclamations – the proclamation establishing the Cape T own Metro Police. Could you perhaps –and I know you have the documents before you and they are printed in the Government Gazette, dealing with the question of the powers of municipal police services in general, and you can read and tell the Commissioner whatever you wish in that respect. MR BOSMAN: Let me just make… the first Gazette that was issued in respect of municipal police services was issued on the 11 th June 1999, which is quite some time back, it’s Gazette number 6554. I’ll hand in a copy. MR KATZ: I have ...(intervention). MR BOSMAN: And basically it sets out an entire process relating to municipal police; how to deal with it, what standards, what the requirements are for recruitment, how to deal with recruitment, but importantly it also sets ou t what the powers and limits of their authority are. For instance they have certain powers in terms of the Drugs and Drug Trafficking Act, the Domestic Violence Act; they can serve interdicts and that sort of stuff and so Metro Police as much as the police, they are also limited, but the most important limitation for Metro Police is that they cannot investigate crime. If you report crime, you report it to the South African Police Service, you cannot report it to the Metro Police. They cannot open up a docket, they cannot take fingerprints, they cannot investigate crime. They do not prepare dockets for court, they do not prepare dockets for prosecution ...(intervention). MR KATZ: When you say they do not, do you mean that they are not allowed to, they aren’t empowered to do so, or they don’t but they could? Could you just explain that? MR BOSMAN: They are not empowered to do so and we have been informed on a regular basis in terms of the annual police plan that the investigation of crime is a function solely reserved for the SAPS. And if you read the SAPS Act it says that that’s their mandate also. So there’s a very clear distinction between that, so if we make any arrests, we have to go to the nearest SAP and in actual fact it’s prescribed in the Gazette and we need to follow the process set out in the Criminal Procedure Act for dealing with people that have been arrested and detained. MR KATZ: Now that’s Metro Police. MR BOSMAN: That’s Metro Police yes. MR KATZ: What types of crimes may the Metro Police act respect of? Fro example are the Metro Police empowered to take action in respect of a municipal bylaw or only in terms of an offence or a crime under national law or provincial law? Could you explain that? MR BOSMAN: In terms of Metro Police the SAPS Act gives them three wide ranging areas to enforce; municipal, which is traffic bylaws and regulations, municipal bylaws and then also they’ve got a part, a C function or a crime prevention function and in terms of that they can make arrests for offences under any legislation unless they are limited and also in terms of serious offences – rape, robbery, murder, that sort of stuff, they can make arrests, but then the process they need to follow is to take the accused to the SAP and the SAP would then process them in terms of their process. MR KATZ: What would happen for example if a Metro police officer arrested a person for suspected drunken driving, what would the process… what process would be followed after that arrest? MR BOSMAN: Drunk driving has got a very specific process attached to it Mr Katz. First of all they would screen you, it’s a device that you blow into ...(intervention). MR KATZ: “They” being the Metro Police? MR BOSMAN: The Metro Police yes. They would screen you, you would blow into a machine and the machine gives you a fairly accurate reading as to whether your level is below or above the limit. If that is positive the next step would then be to have your blood drawn at the district surgeon’s office, alternatively in instances where we set up specific road blocks, we actually have nurses working at the police station, waiting for us to deal with it. So we would facilitate it in that process. The mechanism whereby one would blow when they would just test your breath hasn’t been authoris ed by the DPP yet for implementation so we still need to follow the manual process of drawing blood. The nursing sister does that, and that is then included as part of the docket and handed in to the SAP. MR KATZ: Now I want you to turn to your law enforc ement section. Could you explain to the Commission who are they and what are they and what do they do and on what basis are they established? MR BOSMAN: The City’s law enforcement section, I’ve gone back into this a little bit. The first notice I picked u p from law enforcement was in 1979 but basically it’s the law enforcement officers or peace officers designated by the Minister of Justice. The current notice is a 2002 notice and basically it sets out what their powers are and what the limits of their pow ers are. For The City, this might surprise you, but your health inspector is a law enforcement officer, your building inspector is a law enforcement officer, but from a policy point of view they don’t wear uniforms. MR KATZ: What is their primary functio n? MR BOSMAN: The primary function for The City is bylaws, enforcement of bylaws and regulations and protection of City property and assets. MR KATZ: When you say enforcement, does that include investigation and thereafter, let’s call it the interaction with the relevant prosecutor, whether it be an NDPP prosecutor or NPA prosecutor or otherwise, can you just explain on that? MR BOSMAN: It’s a different process. Bylaws are more administrative in nature. If you get a ticket for your car as an example by a traffic officer, the only time we will get involved with the court process is once you haven’t paid your ticket and a summons has been issued, because the moment a summons has been issued it develops into a formal prosecution document. So when we talk ab out investigation it’s not crime that they are investigating, it’s more infringements of bylaws and regulations where a barking dog, a noise nuisance, somebody complaining about cars parking in the driveway an their investigation would merely be to go out and ascertain if the offence is happening and then issue the ticket. You would then have the option to pay the fine; alternatively, if you do not wish to pay it you can then contest it and go to court. MR KATZ: And that applies equally to for example violations of zoning laws by people putting up houses or let’s call it shacks in areas where the zoning, the LUPO, what is called the Land Use Planning Ordinance, doesn’t – and regulations promulgated there under – don’t’ permit for that, that would be the law enforcement section’s responsibility? MR BOSMAN: Working in conjunction of the building survey people. Although I must say sometimes in some of the bylaws there are certain provisions of a bylaw that contain a no admission of guilt fine. So that mean s there’s no fine set down financially by the magistrate; you would then have to appear in court on it and the magistrate would then determine the fine. All the fines for the bylaws, The City can’t determine fines for bylaws. We can make a recommendation t o the magistrate, but the magistrates determine fine limits in terms of a bylaw. MR KATZ: Yes. Now I want to move on to the factual – before I do that, I just want to touch upon two aspects; the one is there was evidence by a Prof Seeking, and I gave you a copy of the transcript, you probably didn’t have an opportunity to read it in detail and in full but one of the points that he made was that one of the problems of crime in Khayelitsha in particular and perhaps in general, is the question of crime linked to the illegal use of alcohol, and it seems that there’s a prevalence of illegal liquor outlets – and I use that word specifically rather than the word “shebeen”, although we all know what a shebeen is ...(intervention). COMMISSIONER: Just to pause there, I don’t think that Prof Seekings was talking about the illegal use of alcohol, I think it was just alcohol, that there’s a close relationship between crime and alcohol, as a point of correction. MR KATZ: I’d have to check on that with the Commissioner. I accept your… but the use of alcohol and to the extent that it may be accepted that there are many or there are a number of outlets in Khayelitsha specifically which trade in alcohol illegally, what is The City doing about it and what can it do about it? And that’s to the extent that there are these – and I use the word shebeen but I understand that it might not be a term which is clear in the constitutional sense, but what can and what does The City do in respect of shebeens, as a simple question? MR BOSMAN: I think the first is two things; The City can regulate the hours of operation of licence facilities. MR KATZ: And does it do so? Does The City do that? MR BOSMAN: There’s a new bylaw that was promulgated on the 1 st Feb and there are certain hours that have been determined for trading for liquor facilities, whether it’s on or off consumption. In terms of legal shebeens, that’s a bit more difficult in that we don’t really have authority in terms of the Western Cape Liquor Act or the national legislation to enforce it. MR KATZ: You say “we”, The City? MR BOSMAN: The City. MR KATZ: The City’s law enforcement has no enforcement powers in respect of violation of either the national or the provincial liquor laws, is that how I understand your evidence? MR BOSMAN: At this stage in time. We’ve written to Minister Winde asking him to extend certain of the provisions of the Western Cape Liquor Act to our staff to enforce the ...(intervention). MR KATZ: Just say that slowly. I didn’t quite hear. MR BOSMAN: We have written to Minister Winde, asking him that our law enforcement officers be empowered to enforce certain provisions of the Western Cape Liquor Act because we would be able to assist the police much more in that sense. But in terms of dealing with shebeens, we do assist the police in operations. The police would normally ask our law enforcement staff to assist them, to go with, and they would then not just look at a shebeen, they would look at a host of other issues. They would look at the zoning of the premises, they look at whether any illegal structures are on the premises, whether there’s any illegal work on the premises or if they are operating a business illegally. So The City would assist the police from another angle, so it wouldn’t just be the alcohol that the police would want to deal with, they would want The City to put pressure on the home owner to be more compliant also in terms of if there is any contravention of building regulations. So our liquor unit works fairly closely with the South African Police’s FLASH unit – their firearms, liquor alcohol and second hand goods – and to some extent they have also come and given our staff some on the job training in terms of how to deal with complaints relating to those issues. In most cases when we receive complaints about outlets, our staff would assist the SAPS in terms of attending the incident and if necessary assist them with logistics and arrangements around it, to assist them to remove any alcohol from the premises. MR KATZ: I see. Before turning to the facts, the other topic that I just want to touch upon are the CCTV camera unit. Now the Commission went on an inspection in loco to the transport management centre situated in Goodwood this last Monday – that is I think the 3 rd February – and next week on the 11 th February, Kevin Cole who is a City official who is tasked with the operation of certain aspects of that, and a Mr Chris Moller, are scheduled to testify before the Commission. Now, could you perhap s just provide the Commission with some idea of what it is that your CCTV camera unit does in general and then specifically if you could touch upon that unit as it operates in Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: Okay. Just in terms of, initially the CCTV cameras in C ape Town started just in the CBD and it was a private business initiative. Late ’99/early 2000 a body then called Business against Crime which was much more prominent in Cape Town, they started with a camera system in the CBD area through a company called, I think it was Grey Security. Over the years it’s grown substantially. The City took over the cameras in about 2001 and since then it’s grown exponentially. The main focus still has very much been in business nodes and in CBD areas. The City has two opera tion centres; the one is in Cape Town, Communiqué Building. We call it Cyclops. And the other one is the TMC Centre in Goodwood as you mentioned. It’s called the Transport Management Centre. There’s a host of cameras there, not just CCYV cameras. We’ve got three-way management cameras also for the N1 and the N2, we’ve also got cameras on the R3 bus route but in Khayelitsha specifically, the cameras in Khayelitsha, the 16 that have been installed here ...(intervention). MR KATZ: So you say there are 16 came ras in Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: Khayelitsha. The 16 that are installed here are monitored from the TMC in Goodwood on a daily basis. MR KATZ: I see. Now Mr Cole will be testifying as to the operation of those cameras but perhaps you can assist the Commiss ion in commenting on two aspects on that. Why would the 16 spots in Khayelitsha where the cameras are operating, why are those the spots in which the cameras are operating number 1, and number 2, is there a rollout or a master plan going forward, in the us e of CCTV technology in the next 10 or 5 or 10 years as part of a rollout plan that The City may or may not have? I think you would be better placed to answer those questions. MR BOSMAN: The information that I received was that the cameras were initially set up, initial location was set up because of the systems from the SAPS. SAPS had made a request and indicating areas were more problematic than not and on that basis the cameras were installed. MR KATZ: Do you know who at SAPS and when was this and who? MR BOSMAN: My understanding was that the information was conveyed between 2002 and 2003 and I think Mr Cole will be able to give you more specifics on that. And a lot of the camera locations are based on issues; there’s certain considerations like high c rime stats, whether there’s high pedestrian tally going through and then to and from every day. You normally find cameras are set up at transport interchanges where you’ve got a convergence of maybe bus, rail and taxi transport where there’s a massive amou nt of people there. So those are some of the considerations that have been put up in place. Khayelitsha has got 16 at the moment, 16 cameras at the moment. I must say to you that we are also subject to vandalism in terms of our camera connections. In some cases the cameras are on fibre optic cables which are mistaken for copper cables and dug up and they are valueless to anybody, but they cripple the cameras. And then also in some cases where copper cable theft has occurred on such a repeated basis, for ins tance there’s one camera in Lansdowne in Mew Way that ESCOM has refused to repair, they said it’s uneconomical for them to repair. I’m sitting with one camera that’s going to cost R150 000 to repair alone, and we are hopefully sourcing funding in the new f inancial year. In terms of the CCTV master plan, The City has got a master plan that it compiled in 2012, because we had to consolidate all the little bits and pieces, and that plan is subject to review on an annual basis. It gets sent out to the various s ub councils, people are invited to comment on the plan and make suggestions in terms of the rollout. CCTV investment hasn’t been substantial for the last two years and it’s a fairly slow rollout. We are subject to all sorts of procurement delays. This year we had cameras planned to be rolled out in the Bellville CBD because of the problems experienced around the Bellville station. We received an appeal against the award in terms of supply chain. So we’ve had to move it over to the next financial year. So th ese things are fraught with all sorts of technical difficulties. Also CCTVs are competing interest; the more cameras you put in, it’s not just putting in a camera, you’ve got to budget for increased maintenance, you’ve got to budget for increased operators on the camera, so it’s not as easy as just putting in a camera and say it’s going to work forever – it doesn’t work forever. In some areas because of the vandalism we have to look at installing solar panels to run the CCTV cameras on a 24 hour basis, and that’s all new technology that hasn’t been tried out in South Africa, so there is the master plan but our master plan competes with every other master plan in the council. MR KATZ: I see. MR BOSMAN: And that’s sometimes a bit awkward to deal with. MR KATZ: The last question that you may want to just touch on, on the CCTV camera unit is, do SAPS make use to the extent possible of that technology? We heard from Ms Harmse this morning that – and Mr Cole will testify – that he has never been asked to testify in the Khayelitsha courts, or the Khayelitsha magistrate’s court. MR BOSMAN: SAPS do have access to the footage, in actual fact in Goodwood as well as in Cape Town they’ve got an officer in the control room and when incidents are picked up on the screen he would alert his staff. I have been requested once or twice by SAPS to have access to footage. They’ve got four or five staff that are specialist technicians who would download the evidence – they wouldn’t let my staff download it – they would do it them selves because that would obviously form part of the evidence chain in terms of that, so they’ve got access to it and normally just would require a case number. We’ve done that, because we have too many requests from private persons wanting CCTV footage and wanting other stuff and we say no, this is for one purpose only and that’s only for the SAPS to access. MR KATZ: Mr Bosman through your evidence you’ve touched in these first two chapters upon many of the issues I understand that you would have spoken of in the third chapter, the factual chapter, but I think before I let you complete your evidence in chief, I would wish that you just talk broadly about your directorate’s experience with specific reference to Khayelitsha. What would you say The City’s challenges are on the issue of safety in Khayelitsha specifically? And obviously in that respect you’ll have regard to the fact that there are certain portions of Khayelitsha that are regarded as informal settlements and there may be allegations in the evide nce next week or the week after, that it’s impossible to police some of those areas. There have been other aspects of the evidence which suggest that well, if there’s a challenge that’s the police’s job to overcome. Could you just comment broadly about que stions such as the infrastructure of Khayelitsha, the plans, The City’s plans for Khayelitsha, without going into any details on any of the socio -economic issues that are outside the terms of reference of this Commission? Limit your answer to the question of policing. MR BOSMAN: I think it’s important maybe from the outset to say that more than 80% of Khayelitsha has got… is built up. Go to the top of Lavender Hill and have a look how the space has changed over the last few years, so I think the largest part of Khayelitsha is a normal urban area that has the normal crime that you pick up in Wynberg, in Constantia, in Muizenberg, in (indistinct). The areas that are still informal do present challenges to policing and one can’t ignore that. I went on the walkabout with you and I’ve been out and about on some occasions. But I also think that they are not insurmountable and one would when one draws up one’s plans and strategies that one would have to work out effective strategies to deal with it in terms of how one overcomes these issues and how one deals with them, taking into account your physical conditions. I also think that any improvement in any physical area that would reduce the opportunity for incidences of crime is an important consideration to take int o place. And I do know that The City in terms of its design and its layout is looking at more of an integrated human settlement approach rather than just building a series of houses. The City has got certain principles relating to what they call CPTED, Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design, which is an international concept where you make sure that places are well lit, areas are well surfaced and all that. So there are principles that have been built into a design. MR KATZ: But you are not an expert on those aspects necessarily and you may just offer your input from time to time as I understand your evidence. MR BOSMAN: Yes, because if we were to be (indistinct) we would say that you guys must make sure that the areas are well designed, properly li t, taking into account the principles that are laid down. And the urban planners and the housing planners would deal with those issues. MR KATZ: I see. And the last aspect that I want you to touch upon, is there – and you can answer as broadly as you can – but there have been these wide ranging allegations that part of the problem of inefficiency of the police is that The City doesn’t maintain for example street lights properly, there are details in repairs of street lights, there are issues of sanitation problems, people having to walk late at night to go to the bathroom and dangers lurk, and there’s an inefficiency of the policing of that. I don’t want your answer in detail because that’s not within your area of expertise, but are you in a position to com ment on, for example, does The City have a policy and what has your experience been when it comes to the lighting issues? What does your directorate do if there’s a complaint about lighting for example? MR BOSMAN: I am aware that utility service has got a section that deals with repairs and maintenance and that, and also our staff have been alerted that when they pick up any faults that it gets reported and conveyed through appropriately. I even do it myself. If I see a drain cover that’s busted I’ll send an sms or I’ll take a picture and e -mail it to somebody myself. So we try to instil that because the staff have to be made aware that it’s important that as many things function as possible at the same time, so staff can become aware of that. That’s important in terms of dealing with those issues. There is a maintenance plan, I am aware of it. There’s a fault reporting system. I stay in Cape Town and there’s times when electricity is out in my area too, and I would use exactly the same number to report the fault. So we also had to make our own staff aware that they are not just in safety and security, they are officials of the City of Cape Town and their business is the City of Cape Town’s business and that (indistinct) the lights are out, I don’t need to re port it to somebody. They should be reporting it to somebody because it’s in all our interest that our infrastructure works. MR KATZ: But it’s not your responsibility to – your responsibility goes as far as reporting it to the directorate which is respon sible, for example the lighting issue. Is that right? MR BOSMAN: Yes, and on some occasions following up, when staff will say “but I’ve reported this and it’s two days later and no -one has come back to me, no-one has replied to me.” So sometimes we will a lso chase things up form our side and indicate that “it’s important that you guys need to fix this.” MR KATZ: Mr Bosman I have no further questions and perhaps the Commission can take it further forward. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KATZ COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much Mr Katz. To avoid the difficulty that arose when we had Dr Lawrence, I would ask the evidence leaders to ask their questions first, followed by cross -examination. Ms Bawa. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BAWA: Good afternoon Mr Bosman. MR BOSMAN: Good afternoon. MS BAWA: Maybe to pick up on the last aspect of your evidence, you together with SAPS sit on meetings that’s called Joints, is that correct? MR BOSMAN: Yes, it’s a setup in terms of the SAPS Act. I sit on the Provincial Joints. There’s a National Joints Committee and there’s a Provincial Joints Committee which I sit on. MS BAWA: You sign a confidentiality agreement with SAPS in respect of what happens at those meetings, similarly so does the Department of Community Safety, is that correct? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. I haven’t been vetted yet but I sign an agreement at each and every meeting. MS BAWA: Can I, notwithstanding the confidentiality, ask you two questions; have you… has SAPS ever raised with you that problems in rela tion to lighting in Khayelitsha impeding policing? If it falls within the confidentiality tell me because I know it’s sticky issue in relation to which there’s a preservation of a relationship between The City, Province and SAPS. MR BOSMAN: These meetings are all minuted and recorded but it hasn’t been raised with me. MS BAW A: Have your Metro police officers who operated in the Khayelitsha area ever raised with you that there’s issues of lighting in Khayelitsha that’s a problem in performing of their duti es? MR BOSMAN: I wouldn’t be able to honestly answer you on that. MS BAW A: Okay. In paragraph 38 of your affidavit, I’m not sure if you’ve got a copy of your affidavit. MR BOSMAN: I do have it. MS BAWA: You talk about doing joint operations with SAPS. To what extent have you assisted SAPS in foot and vehicle patrols or in joint operations specifically in Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: On most cases on their request. I think vehicular patrols are done by the Metro Police on a daily basis in the area because th ey also have to enforce road traffic legislation, but from a SAPS point of view as and when requested. And in some cases it’s twice a week, thrice a week. MS BAWA: Well let’s – you are talking generally – have you been requested to be part of joint operations or anything in Khayelitsha specifically? MR BOSMAN: Ja. The Station Commissioner – he’s got an Afrikaans surname, I can’t remember his surname – at Lingelethu West, decided that I was his sole contact during the festive season and he phoned me every time he needed assistance. MS BAWA: Okay. MR BOSMAN: I was here on the 20 th December at 8 o’clock the evening. We had a joint road block outside the Lingelethu West Police Station at the four way crossing down here where my traffic office is over the way , and that was a joint op between us. They actually asked us to come and assist them. MS BAW A: Now your Metro cops patrol in the Khayelitsha area, do they patrol in the informal areas or do they only patrol in the formal areas? MR BOSMAN: Well in most cases they patrol in areas they have access to, that they have vehicular access and in informal areas it’s normal when a complaint is received. They would then obviously have to get out of their vehicles and engage in a foot patrol. MS BAWA: So do they do foot patrols and do they have access to bicycles? MR BOSMAN: No, we don’t have any bicycles here but they have access to the… most of the times it’s just the vehicles that we use. MS BAWA: Okay. And do they do patrols 24 hours or is it a day time shift? MR BOSMAN: Our staff, the Khayelitsha office is a 24 hour office, that operates on a 24 hour basis. The staff work four days on and four days off, so they work 48 hours a week. They work four 12 hour shifts, split into two days of 12 and two night shift 12. MS BAWA: And do they patrol at night as well? MR BOSMAN: Yes, they are out at night also. MS BAWA: And have they not complained to you about lighting problems at all? MR MASUKU: Sorry, sorry, the translation, I think this time ...(intervention). MS BAWA: I’m going too fast. COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Masuku. He does go at a bit of gallop sometimes. MS BAWA: It’s Mr Bosman that’s going fast and so I’m also mindful that you complained about how long I took yesterday. So let’s do this; do your night Metro cops not complain about the lack of lighting in certain areas? MR BOSMAN: We encourage them to report fault. They wouldn’t report a fault to me directly. Sorry, I have to be honest and say to you they haven’t spoken to me directly about it. MS BAW A: So they haven’t reported to you that they can’t perform their responsibilities as Metro police officers in Khayelitsha because they have lighting problems? MR BOSMAN: No. That has never been conveyed to me. COMMISSIONER: May I interrupt there. You were t alking about foot patrols. One of the issues that several witnesses have referred to is the possibility of using horses as patrols in informal areas, and I see that you do in fact have an equine unit. Is that being used in informal areas, and would that b e an appropriate solution to some of these difficulties? MR BOSMAN: We’ve got an equestrian unit. It’s a very small unit. Horses have limited use, depending on the terrain and the situation. One would find they’re much more useful for us on beaches, as well as in duney areas around those beaches for the most part. And also, without wanting to sound funny, I did speak to Mr Katz about this, out of an eight hour shift that staff work, you probably get about four hours of use out of a horse. You need to cl ean them and feed them before you go out on patrol, you need to take them to where you want to take them – you’re not going to ride the horse from Cape Town to Khayelitsha, that’s not practical. And you need to make sure that they’re back at a certain time in the day to feed them and clean them again. This is standards what we need to follow in terms of stabling. So horses have a usage, but it’s a very limited and targeted usage. Our biggest asset for horses is the use over the Festive Season, and at spe cial events and at big events at the stadiums where we can use them. But you wouldn’t use a horse to patrol in informal settlements. That’s not an ideal situation for them. The SAPS also have an equestrian unit and we follow very much the same modus operandi. MS BAWA: Now, Mr Bosman, in paragraph 44 of your Affidavit you talk about the video camera unit which was established late in 2011 that operates throughout Cape Town. Do they ever operate in Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: Which section are you referring to? MS BAWA: Paragraph 44, page 17. MR BOSMAN: Okay. Alright. Thank you. Okay. The video unit has got – it’s got a very, also a fairly limited purpose, in that they do a lot of mobile traffic enforcement, where in places where you can’t erect a speed camera, where you’re looking at freeways where one can’t erect cameras in the middle of a freeway where there’s no lane dividers. For instance, Hospital Bend, to give you an example; you can’t exactly put up a solid barrier wall in the middle of Hospital Bend. And they’re also used extensively in terms of dealing with issues around protest marches and gatherings. What we are doing, introducing slowly, is introducing what we call dashboard cameras for all our cars, which is a concept we’ve intro duced from overseas, with staff that are out on patrol. And if there were to be any pursuit or if they see any incident they’d be able to switch on the camera on the car’s dashboard, which would then be able to record everything that’s happening outside of the car. And we’re also looking at voice activation. So the video unit is there, but their role is fairly limited to traffic enforcement and also dealing with marches and gatherings and regulations, that’s their main purpose. MS BAWA: Okay. Now, you touched on a CCTV camera plan. MR BOSMAN: Mm. MS BAW A: And for the legal representatives, it’s to be located on the first bundle and it’s item – the City documents, which is 10, item 15 in file 2. MR BOSMAN: It’s called the CCTV Master Plan. I think it’ s dated October 2012, or September 2012. MS BAW A: It’s the one that’s called Revised 2011, that was annexed to the letter which the Commission received from the City Manager. Is this the latest plan? MR BOSMAN: Ja. I recognise the document, yes. MS BAWA: Okay. Do you have a copy of the document with you? MR BOSMAN: No, I don’t, unfortunately. MS BAW A: We can talk without – there isn’t anything. But it starts off with some introductory comments. It says: “Over the last decade, CCTV systems have proved t o be an extremely effective tool in containing and preventing crime, both within the international and local environment. The challenges of crime, however, have precipitated the development and introduction of numerous CCTV applications.’ And then it goes on to deal with that. Now, you say – what is the motivation of putting in a CCTV camera? Why would you do that? MR BOSMAN: In most cases were policing resources are limited, whether it’s at City or at police level, and the idea of having a CCTV camera is that people have a perception that if it’s there, somebody’s watching me all the time. And one would hope that that would form some sort of a psychological deterrent. And I also said that that isn’t always true in all instances. People are brazen; they put on a hoodie, they put on a top, they wear baggy clothes, they disguise themselves. They do all sorts of stuff. So I think the main focus for CCTV was always where there was a lot of crime in areas. People felt the need to feel safe, and a CCTV was seen as one of the means of dealing with those issues. So that would be a major consideration. You’d look at an area that’s got a fair amount of high crime stats, muggings, robberies, a fairly high amount of pedestrian traffic, and one would also look at existing or joining infrastructure to make it as easy as possible to set up cameras without making the cost far too exorbitant, and the cost would outweigh the benefit. MS BAWA: I mean, to sum it up, it’s actually summed up in the CCTV plan: “The footprint of cameras is used proactively and is managed as a strategic tool in both preventing and combating crime.” So it seems that the primary objective, based on the City’s plan is the preventing and combating of crime. What’s the status of this plan? Is it passed through Council? Is it still an informal document? MR BOSMAN: That plan – that updated master plan was approved by Council. But it’s subject to an annual review. The last review was in 2011/2012 where we sent it through all the sub -councils for their comment. MS BAWA: Okay. Now, as I understand it, the establishment or the – let’s talk about installation first. How the 16 cameras came to be installed in Khayelitsha wasn’t initially at the City’s behest; it was as a consequence of money whi ch had come down from the National Government to the Provincial Government to the City and then the 16 cameras got put into Khayelitsha. Is that correct? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. It was part of the then presidential urban developments or presidential improvement projects. MS BAW A: And that project, that presidential project, was aimed at focusing and putting resources in areas that was required for purposes of combating crime, high crime areas – is that correct? MR BOSMAN: It was one of its objectives, yes, that’s right. MS BAWA: Now, if one – if one looks at CCTV cameras, you’ve got quite an extensive reporting mechanism, and maybe it’s a good time to give you the documentation, because I have culled the Khayelitsha -related documentation out of the bundles that was provided to the City. And I want – it’s two A3 schedules and then there’s two other documents, but we’re going through the A3 schedules first. And effectively what you do is, you have what’s called Camera Incident Reports. Is that correct? You’ve provided the Commission with – tell me, Mr Bosman, if Mr Cole is better able to deal with this than you and I should keep these questions for you. But effectively we have a document like this, which is called Camera Incident Reports, which re cords all the incidents which is picked up by the various cameras. And we were provided with an extensive – it’s in file 2, item 22, that are – I might have given you a wrong reference. Let me just double-check that as the Commissioners go to it, I seem to think that I’m … am I right? Okay. So what you have in the smaller schedule, which is RB4, is the number of incidents which is picked up by the cameras in some of the sections in Khayelitsha for October 2010. And the detail that those cameras picked up is then reported in an Incident Report. Who do you give this Incident Report to? MR BOSMAN: We report on a monthly basis to our Civilian Oversight Committee. The City’s got a CIVOC or Civilian Oversight Committee, set up in terms of the SAPS Act, so the se are provided to them on a monthly basis. And SAPS has also got access to the records. MS BAWA: To SAPS has access to it and CIVOC has access to it. MR BOSMAN: CIVOC is our formal reporting on a monthly basis where it’s actually an open agenda. It’s a public agenda, and it’s report to the Civilian Oversight Committee. MS BAW A: Right. Now, the second table which is marked RB3 is – we were provided, Mr Bosman, with the CIVOC reports during the period April 2010 to October 2012, and as I understand it, t hose meetings take place roughly every month. MR BOSMAN: Yes. MS BAWA: And … MR BOSMAN: The Civilian Oversight Committee meets on a monthly basis, with the exception of December. MS BAW A: And maybe for the record you need to just explain to us what CIVOC is, this Civilian Oversight Committee. MR BOSMAN: Any municipality – I must also say, Commissioner, only Metropolitan municipalities are allowed to establish Metropolitan police forces, or municipal police forces, because they’re extremely expensive . So there are no Category B municipalities in the country that have a current existing Metro police force. Swartland had one. They disbanded theirs because of the cost. CIVOC has to be set up in terms of the SAPS Act. We’ve had a Civilian Oversight Committee functioning since 2006. Their job is to oversee the role of the Metro police. The City’s extended their mandate to include traffic and law enforcement services, and basically they interrogate the working methods of our departments, the statistical reports that have come back from the departments, and they also make recommendations, if anything, to the City Manager if they feel that incidents need to be dealt with properly. They cover the entire spectrum of our activities, from the attendance of staff to disciplinary matters, as well as general operational functions. COMMISSIONER: And who are they? MR BOSMAN: They are – the Committee is – I made a mistake with Mr Katz – the Committee’s got 10 people; two of which are elected councillors. The ot her 8 are all members of the community that were invited via an advert to be on the Civilian Oversight Committee. They’re not City employees; they only get a stipend for meeting attendance, but they’re totally independent on the City. We’ve got various people on there; ex-policemen, people who are part of CPFs, people with experience in the criminal justice system, people with experience in communities. So there’s a fair mixture of people. People who were involved in trauma counselling even for that matte r, because that was a weakness that we identified. MS BAW A: Okay. So if we look at the extracted table that I’ve provided you, on the first column you have the date of the CIVOC meeting. And this is essentially a summary of the documentation which is to be find in file 3A, 3B and 4 of the documentation that’s been provided to the Commission, just so that it’s in the record. The second column tells you Operational. MR BOSMAN: Ja. MS BAW A: And this is as extracted from the CIVOC meeting. Perhaps you can explain what “Operational” means. MR BOSMAN: Can I just maybe elaborate on that. And I think it’s important that I maybe just set the context as well with that. Prior to the master plan in its current form, things were very – things were – there was no centralised master plan for the City, there was no centralised standard for the cameras. The City’s done some international research; we’ve benchmarked with London where we had study tours there. Our staff went there, operational staff, and they came over to us. And there’s an international standard that’s been benchmarked for CCTV cameras at a 90% functionality, and that is our benchmark, that at least 90% of our cameras must be functional on a daily basis. Those that are reported as being faulty or out of order need to be repaired. We’ve got a maintenance contract with an outside agency for that, as we don’t have internal capacity to manage it, and they have a contract with us on a three year basis to be able to respond to all cameras that are out in t erms of very simple faults within 24 hours, and a bit longer with the more detailed technical faults. But we operate on a 90% performance standard for our CCTV cameras on a daily basis, and that’s the entire network across the city. MS BAW A: But that 100% is a goal which is not always achieved, is that – is that correct? MR BOSMAN: It’s impossible to attain 100%. Somebody steals one copper cable, it could take out 20 of your CCTV cameras. They move on fibre optic cable, and five cameras are out in Khay elitsha. So 90% is regarded as an acceptable rate. MS BAWA: Now, if I look at – you say you’ve got an outside consultant who goes out and fix these cameras, so … MR BOSMAN: An outside company that does it, yes. They were out on tender and that have a contract with us. MS BAW A: Right. And you provided the Commissioner – that’s to be found in file 3. I’m just going to give you one sheet forward, because it’s called CCI Log Sheets, and I understand that this is what the consultant needs to provide you each time they go out to see a camera. The one difficulty I’ve had with trying to understand these CCI Log Sheets is, if they go out with a camera and they can’t fix them – for example, there’s something missing or the wind is blowing, they can’t go up – what we don’t get on that Log Sheet is effectively when that camera is then fixed. They would then submit another Log Sheet to tell you that. So what is not being provided to the Commission, despite having a whole lever arch file of Log Sheets, is precisel y how long each of the cameras in Khayelitsha are out for when they do go out for reasons that are not operational. Do you not keep that information? MR BOSMAN: Well, it should be. Can I – may I respond to you on that? I actually made enquiries for you specifically relating to that, okay? Currently there’s 16 cameras in Khayelitsha of which 10 are operational, okay? 4 cameras have been out since December 13 because there was theft of the fibre cable. The contractor was seen installing the cable and th e assumption must have been that it was copper and when they dug it up they realised it was a fibre optic cable. We’re hoping that that will be repaired by the end of February, because fibre optic cables require specialist repairs. So out of the 16 four have been out since late December 2013. When they said “late”, I asked them what they meant by late, exactly that. They indicated either the 17 th or the 18 th December, okay? So that’s four of the six. One was recently vandalised – sorry, one is being vandalised repeatedly, and since November 2011 Eskom has indicated that they’re not prepared to repair it anymore; we need to look at solar panels. And we’re looking at options in that respect. MS BAW A: Where does Eskom get the right to make the decision whether they’re going to repair it or not? MR BOSMAN: What they’ve indicated here – I’m just – I haven’t pursued that, but it’s just the comments I got from the staff. Eskom has indicated it’s too costly to repair the electrical connection every time. And then the one has been out since November 2013. Illegal electrical connections burnt out the entire camera. We have a repair cost for that camera of R100 000,00, and it should be done at the start of the new financial year in July. So I’ve been able to get a summary of how long they’ve been out. But your point is taken in terms of where individual cameras would be out for a day or two or three, that this is not reflected, and that’s something that I will need to take up, to provide an accurate record o f when the call was made, when the call-out was made to fix the camera, and when the camera’s actually functional again. MS BAW A: Because, Mr Bosman, you will recall at some point in 2013 there was a Metro police officer killed in Khayelitsha. MR BOSMAN: Yes. Sergeant Zakekele was killed. MS BAW A: And he was killed in the location of a camera that was not working. And that camera had not been working for months and continued not to work for months after that incident occurred. MR BOSMAN: Mm. MS BAW A: The point I’m trying to make is here’s – there may be a persistent problem with vandalism or cable theft that’s occurring, or fibre optic cable that gets taken, but there’s no plan to deal with that. Why does it take so long to get replacement parts? Should you not have spares in anticipation of eventualities like this? Is there a difficulty with that? MR BOSMAN: Sometimes there’s a difficulty in obtaining spare parts. We don’t carry a large amount of stock. CCTV, we acknowledge it changes on an annual basis and because of that very limited stock is carried. Most of the stock that are carried are managed as external items. But your internal stock is not carried, because software changes and components change. And most of the components for the cameras that we have here we need to source from overseas. MS BAW A: Now, we also know, Mr Bosman, from what we were told at the in loco inspection, and Mr Cole confirmed this in evidence, that it doesn’t happen in all areas; it happens in certain problematic areas, and Khayelitsha is one of the problematic areas. Does that accord with the information you’ve been provided? MR BOSMAN: Yes. Some areas are more prone to vandalism and theft of copper cable as a whole, or just vandalism of City equipment. We’re not the on ly department. The Electricity Department battle with their own challenges too. MS BAW A: Okay. Now, we also understood that there are certain cameras – that the fibre optic cables are required to do the feed to the TMC … MR BOSMAN: Yes. MS BAWA: And that you’ve now got more modern cameras in place in certain areas that can actually store the recordings for 30 days. MR BOSMAN: Ja. MS BAWA: Is that correct? MR BOSMAN: It hasn’t been fully implemented yet, but that is the way we would like to go, where we could actually deal with it. As a matter of course, all CCTV footage we store for 25 days. MS BAWA: No, I’m talking about being stored on the camera on site. MR BOSMAN: Correct. So we could download it. And that would couple up with the cameras that are solar-powered so that your downtime in terms of vandalism will be reduced substantially. MS BAW A: Because it does seem that the cameras in Khayelitsha are now roughly eleven years old and that the more modern cameras that you’re putting into other areas may be more suitable for Khayelitsha, even if it means you switch cameras around. Is that part of the contemplation at all? MR BOSMAN: I think part of the idea of the master plan and the review on an annual basis is to look at exactly the issues you’ve raised and to say, listen here, we need to take a look and see what the new advancements are on the market, what cameras are more suitable in certain areas, and deal with it. So the master plan being reviewed on an annual basis is not just about the location of the cameras, but also new technology that’s coming on, the extension of it, and what would be best for different areas. MS BAWA: Mr Bosman, there’s something about the master plan that’s really bothered me since I looked at it, because the master plan on page 20 – let me see if I can pull it up, and I’ll give you my copy that I’ve got here. My difficulty with the master plan is it reflects a ten year plan of the City in respect of what the City’s plans are in relation to the master plan. And let me pass on my copy of it. I want to draw your attention specifically to page 25 of the plan because the part that – the part that bothers me about the plan is that it doesn’t appear – and are the proposed locations for where the next ten years of cameras are to go been decided in – or been considered in consultations with SAPS? MR BOSMAN: First of all, I think it’s important that – this is not cast in stone. These proposals that are here were the workshop of the master plan by Council internally, sent to all our Councillors, sent to all our sub -councils in terms of how the priorities were identified. This can change on an annual basis; Council has the right to review it on an annual basis. So this is not cast in stone. On this plan, on this master plan as it is here, there was no input from SAPS. MS BAW A: Certainly in the camera installations that have occurred in the last two or three years, the Claremont ones, etc, have been as contemplated in the plan. MR BOSMAN: Okay. In terms of the Claremont ones and the Rondebosch ones, that was a bit different from the normal one. That was a joint partnership between the City, South African Breweries and UCT after the death of a student a couple of years ago. So that was more of an ad hoc installation. It wasn’t really very much in terms of the plan itself. And as I’ve indicated, we’ve installed no cameras over the last two years because of difficulties from a supply chain point of view and getting stuff done. MS BAWA: How did the Sea Point cameras come about? MR BOSMAN: Those were part of the initial system with Business against Crime that was set up in the early period of the system. MS BAW A: Because my difficulty is, Mr Bosman, in two of the documents that I’ve provided hereto, where did the correlation in the last ten years – you’ll see Annexure RB1 and RB2, we calculated the number of crimes in Harare, Khayelitsha, Lingelethu, West Sea Point, Mitchell’s Plain and Nyanga for the last ten years, and initially I thought that Sea Point’s lower figures could b e attributed to the presence of 14 CCTV cameras in Sea Point. But then when I look at the annual SAPS crime statistics, it was always significantly lower than the other areas. And yet we have a situation that in Nyanga we have no CCTV cameras, we’ve had n o investment of CCTV cameras in either Khayelitsha or in Mitchell’s Plain. As I understand, that was also part of the presidential contribution that was made. So there doesn’t seem to be a correlation in the planning of CCTV cameras to having any linkage to crime. MR BOSMAN: Okay. There’s been recent installation of cameras in Mitchell’s Plain in the town centre, towards the end of last year, and those cameras were set up in conjunction with our department, by our Transport Management Section, based at the Interchange and the town centre itself. So that has been set up. MS BAW A: But that was – that was done from a traffic perspective on the Interchange. I understood that that was a primary traffic motivation for that camera that went up. MR BOSMAN: No, there were two motivations. The one was increased pedestrian flow in traffic, as well as the safety and security aspect of it, especially around the town centre. MS BAWA: Is there then any explanation – if one looks at that ten years, the biggest crime hot spots in Cape Town is not where the City in its ten year plan contemplates putting cameras. I understand it’s not cast in stone, but there is also a minute in the CIVOC meetings – that plan has not been reviewed for the last ten years, but a CIVOC meeting minute which I’ve been trying to lay my hand on, there has been a discussion on it and that hasn’t changed at all None of the areas which is contemplated by the City is high crime areas, if one looks at the statistics. Can you comment as to what the thinking was behind designating those areas as crime hot spots? And I raise this because it seems as if the writing – or the view expressed is that one CCTV camera might be as effective as ten patrolmen. MR BOSMAN: Mm. MS BAWA: Do you have any comment in relation thereto, Mr Bosman? MR BOSMAN: Just on your last comment. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I mean, as much as CCTV’s there, when incidents happen you need staff to respond to your CCTV. I think that’s important to realise. So you can have a CCTV, but if you don’t have staff to respond to incidents being picked up on CCTV live, that’s also a major challenge, especially in terms of Nyanga. I have gone back to check. There doesn’t seem to have been any substantial SAP interaction in the CCT V cameras other than the initial layout in 2003 in terms of identification of cameras and setting out cameras. COMMISSIONER: May I just interject. Is there any research done on the – well, a correlation at least between the putting up of a CCTV camera an d decline in crime rates or, alternatively, apprehension of perpetrators? MR BOSMAN: Nothing that we’ve got definitive, but what we do find is that the moment you set up CCTV, you might find crime would be displaced elsewhere, because there’s heightened s ensitivity around cameras being made available (indistinct), the cameras are all on the main road but there’s nothing on the roads two or three roads behind the main road, and you might find it moving there, in that sense. COMMISSIONER: And is that the same pattern you see regardless of whether you’re talking about an inner city built up area, or whether you’re talking about an informal community? MR BOSMAN: It would be the same, yes. Ja. MS BAWA: Do CCTV cameras assist in advising the City when light s are not operating? MR BOSMAN: That’s also one of the large functions, is that we look at service delivery issues with lights as well as any bottles in roads, any water mains that have been burst, and that. And the staff or the operators are trained to then report these faults to their respective reporting centre. MS BAW A: Can I also understand that when you do have consultations with SAPS as to the location of CCTV cameras, do you consult – do City make the decision right, now we’re going to put this c amera into Claremont, we make that decision, we consult with SAPS as to where in Claremont that camera must be put, or is your consultation with SAPS which suburbs should we be putting these cameras in? MR BOSMAN: I think the consultation thereto has alwa ys mainly just been the suburbs. Location is mainly determined by us in terms of where existing infrastructure is, where your high foot and pedestrian traffic is, existing buildings, how easy it would be to link onto existing buildings. Many of our cameras in the CBD are on private buildings, not on City property itself So that’s also an important factor to play. Otherwise your infrastructure costs become totally exorbitant, and you need to put in a total new network, which makes it just totally unaffordab le, from a maintenance point of view also. MS BAW A: Not to mislead you, the criteria’s actually set out on page 26 of the master plan, because I’ve just looked at my note. MR BOSMAN: Ja. Mm. MS BAW A: And it identifies five criteria; whether it is an economic hub, the public transport interchanges and crime challenges. And it says: “A careful analysis needs to be undertaken with respect to police - able crimes. A detailed crime sheet analysis as well as a crime pattern analysis must be undertaken. The SA PS must guide this process and provide the motivation and substantiation with respect to the area identified., coverage of national and major Metropolitan [indistinct] and emerging CBDs.” And that seems to be what the policy contemplates happening. MR BOSMAN: Those reporting criteria in that sense – I mean, there’s no point in putting up a camera in areas where there’s no pedestrian or vehicular traffic. So those are some issues, as you mentioned earlier, you mentioned an issue about cameras, you look at the town centre, it’s got a high crime rate and public transport interchanges, CBD area. So those are three out of those cameras of this – three of those criteria already were used when one looked at the town centre, and we just plan also the idea, so it might be a combination of some, or you might find in some cases two (indistinct) might outweigh some of them. But these are the considerations that were put down, because we needed to have criteria. Previously it was a bit haphazard, and until this mast er plan was consolidated like this, there were differing views on cameras. MS BAWA: Is it easy to relocate cameras once they’re up? MR BOSMAN: No. It’s not that easy. Once they’re installed, it’s a bit difficult for us. MS BAWA: What’s the most – the biggest cost of the installation? MR BOSMAN: If one needs to sit in – if you need to erect new infrastructure like new cables, fibre-optic cables, new copper cables – so for the most part we try and (indistinct) back on existing stuff. You need to have a p ower source also, as well as the feed. So where there’s no infrastructure, that is where your biggest cost is. Your lowest costs are where there are existing infrastructures; you can just add cameras on to an existing system. MS BAW A: Mr Bosman, you touched on the fire stations. Do they fall under your directorate? MR BOSMAN: Yes. The Fire Department is one of the departments with me. We have 30 fire stations across the city, starting at Atlantis in the north. The most furthest fire station is Simonstown and then, of course, Khayelitsha area’s got two – two fire stations. MS BAWA: Now, pursuant to a request from the Commission to consult with the fire station members, the Commission then had a consultation. It was – it was then a request put for mem bers of the one Khayelitsha fire station to come and give evidence at the Commission. We were informed by the legal representatives of the City that they were fearful to come and give evidence and that the evidence would in fact be led through you today because the City did not want to make available any of their employees who were too scared to testify about the Commission. Is that a correct summation of the arrangement that was entered into? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MS BAWA: You touched on the fear, and I just want to clarify – is the fear that was relayed to the City by the firemen a fear of retribution from the community if they came to testify before the Commission? MR BOSMAN: That was what was conveyed to me, yes. MS BAWA: Now, you do touch on the firemen’s experiences in your Affidavit, and you explained that they indicated that SAPS had some difficulty – that there were some delays in the system SAPS was provided, and you said, look, Metro police sometimes does exactly the same, and we’re als o not timeous sometimes in supporting our fire services. Did I understand your evidence correctly? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MS BAW A: But if I look at the information that came to the Commission’s attention, the information from the firemen extended a ctually a bit beyond that and what is contained in your Affidavit. In fact, it was relayed to us that their experiences of SAPS were as follows: “they were too slow to respond, both when called out to assist the Fire Department, and when called out to ass ist the public. When they do respond, they’re often ill-prepared. Example – one police vehicle responding to a volatile scene which requires manpower. Often the police stay in their police vans and don’t go out to address the problems, leaving them expose d to a hostile environment. They have often been told by passing police vans that they won’t assist because the area in which there is a disaster falls outside the jurisdiction of their station. The police forensic units take too long to attend crime sce nes. It appears that Khayelitsha SAPS are totally unable to deal with gangs and gang violence. They have heard police officers refusing to deal with gang fights, instead blaming the parents for allowing the children to be involved in gangs. They have previously invited SAPS for meetings, but SAPS have simply not attended. They have no working relationship to talk of with SAPS in Khayelitsha, despite the fact that they often have to address similar issues. There is no protocol or blueprint in place for a working relationship between them and SAPS. They have never had a simulated joint exercise with SAPS, Khayelitsha, whereas they, the Fire Department, do same at bases like the airport. Their major challenges are access, difficulty to manoeuvre between shacks, [which is in your Affidavit] water supply. Often people build around water points and disrupt supply lines. And, thirdly, the SAPS 107 emergency number [which is not in your Affidavit], having been a source of major delays causing them n ot to respond to call outs.” MR BOSMAN: Can I – can I just (intervention). MS BAW A: And they also said that they didn’t think lighting at night happens there efficiently. Now, this was relayed by persons who work at the fire station and your evidence fell a little bit short of that information. Do you care to comment on what was – the Commission was advised of? MR BOSMAN: I think the experiences you’re getting there, it’s some staff, individual staff members who actually work in the area, guys who are operational in this area and they’re pointing out to you the problems that they personally experience on that side. MS BAWA: That’s precisely the point, Mr Bosman. This is about the persons in Khayelitsha’s experiences with SAPS, isn’t it? MR BOSMAN: Ja, that’s what was conveyed to me; staff stated their interaction. MS BAW A: It goes a little bit beyond that. It also says we do not have a blueprint or working relationship with SAPS. We do not have meeting with SAPS. That goes a little bit beyond indi vidual police persons’ experience in Khayelitsha. MR BOSMAN: Okay. I think you’re making a statement, you’re not asking me a question. Is there something that you want me to comment on specifically? MS BAW A: I asked you to comment on this. Your response was that this an individual member’s response to SAPS. I agreed that it was an individual member’s response. However, I also pointed out to you that, included in the comments is an institutional relation between the fire stations and SAPS as well in respect of simulated exercises or, alternatively, meetings between SAPS Khayelitsha and the firemen, which goes a little bit beyond the individual. It’s an operational or an institutional relationship between two bodies who render a service in Khayelitsha. And I make the contrast, because we are going to hear evidence from the ambulance services as to how that’s been dealt with, with very similar kinds of problems of a nature. So I'm putting to you that it’s not only an individual member’s experiences. MR BOSMAN: Then it’s an institutional issue, which obviously would require addressing. They deliver services, albeit differently, but they deliver service in the same way. MS BAW A: Is it something now that’s been brought to your attention that your directorate will be attending to in your meetings with SAPS? MR BOSMAN: Correct. That is something which we intend to address with them. But generally speaking, I must also – I want to say to you now that our guys attend – can attend up to 300 fire calls a day, a cross the Metro, not just Khayelitsha. And also – maybe let me just give you the context. The guys at the fire stations stand down, waiting for a call to come through. So they’re in a position to respond immediately, whereas you might find the Metro pol ice or SAPS might be attending to a complaint, they might be busy with an arrest. They couldn’t just drop everything automatically and leave it. So I think one must also see it in the proper context, but it is an issue that one – that we will be pursuing, yes. MS BAW A: You see, Mr Bosman, there is a Memorandum of Understanding that’s been developed between the Department of Health and SAPS. And, as I understand from the ambulance people, it’s working really well. It’s in that context that I’m raising tha t maybe a conversation a little bit lower than joints could actually work. It might be one thing we can achieve in the Commission with relative ease in cooperation between (intervention). MR BOSMAN: I think anything to improve it, yes, and I’ll make sure that I get a copy of it. MS BAWA: It brings me to another issue; it’s the 107 number. MR BOSMAN: Mm hmm? MS BAW A: It’s been raised – it’s the City’s number. The ambulance people say it’s complicated. It complicates our life. It takes too long to get to us through a 107 number. The firemen seem to say the same thing. The Head of Emergency Medical Services in the Western Cape tell us there should be one emergency number, not 10111, 107, 9111 – we should all be working towards rendering one service under one number, and that we would all be rendering more effective services to the public if we did that. What’s your comment in relation to that? MR BOSMAN: If the Head of Emergency Services come, he’ll tell you that the provinces initially embarked on a R25 0 million project to upgrade all the software, and to integrate all the call taking capacity across the board, which will include the City, to have one single emergency number across the board from our side. In terms of 107 for the City, our staff are ab le to access all the numbers across the board, including, if I can just say the 107 centre – you make a call to 107, they can put you through to the SAPS and to the ambulances immediately, as well as to the Fire Department, so … I'm well aware of the one i nstance that was mentioned to you, but when we pursued it further there was no substance to it. But, yes, there is a need for one single emergency number. I know Government tried it a couple of years of the 112, but there’s a lot of numbers around. People ‘phone Vodacom, and they think they’re ‘phoning the City of Cape Town, which is not the case. So I do agree with you the issue of a single emergency number is something that needs serious attention, but you need to remember that still even if we have one emergency number, you are still going to have to be doing despatching of all the different services across the board. And all the services are not centralised. But it is getting attention. MS BAW A: But the point is if we worked a little bit better toget her, rather than compete with each other and provide the same service, we might actually do a lot better. MR BOSMAN: But we don’t compete with each other, Ms Bawa. We render different services. MS BAWA: Can I take you to an issue which is of interest to the Commission looking forward, and that’s training. What would you recommend as the basic minimum training for somebody joining a police agency? MR BOSMAN: Well, we’ve implemented a system with us no w the last couple of years (intervention). MS BAW A: Well, I’m not meaning at the local level; I’m meaning in a SAPS policing environment. MR BOSMAN: Well, you need to – maybe let me answer the question differently from this side. Our basic training course for Metro police and traffic officers has been extended to eighteen months. Eighteen months, at the local government level. SAPS members don’t train that long. Their basic training is shorter than that. So I think in terms of from the City’s side, we’ve had things beefed up. I think your basic training – I mean, you’d need at least a year’s training, which is more in a college environment, and then at least another year out on the road with somebody mentoring you and job -shadowing you before you ca n be allowed to deal with issues on your own. Versus demand based upon what? COMMISSIONER: Could I also just – before we get to training, what sort of protocols around recruitment … MR BOSMAN: Sorry? COMMISSIONER: What sort of protocols around recruitme nt should we be looking at? What kind of considerations should one take into account? MR BOSMAN: I think the first – let me give an example; I think the first thing is that as an absolute minimum the person must have Matric. Okay? I mean, that’s important, and that’s something we’ve implemented. I mean, you’re going to find this very funny, but up until five, six years ago, you needed Standard 8 to become a traffic officer and law enforcement officer, but yet you were going to court and you were dealing with evidence in a court case and you were having a qualified attorney or prosecutor examining you, and you wouldn’t be able to match it on an intellectual basis. So I think as a minimum, Matric. I think the people that you employ need to have certain c ompetencies and skills. Not everybody can do law enforcement. I think that’s a given. I do think you should do psychometric testing of the people that you think are suitable. I’ve introduced that in the City since 2009 for all my first line supervisors. Yes, it’s got probative value, but that’s one of the series of stuff that you would use for certain issues. And I think it’s important that you look at psychometric evaluation. I mean, you can’t have people that have problems dealing with conflict. You can’t have people that have anger issues. You can’t have people that don’t – and I know this is going to sound odd to you – they don’t have the value system that you’re looking for. Is it a career, or is it a job because I'm unemployed and I need to find something? And four or five years later you’re going to get I’m going to leave the job. So all that investment you’ve made in me is gone. If I can just use an example: in the City of Cape Town we’ve got guys who’ve been in the fire services 40 years. Tr affic services, 40 years. They saw that as a calling. And I know this might sound very naïve to you, but whoever you’re going to take in uniform actually needs to believe that there’s a right and a wrong, and that there’s a line, that you don’t cross tha t line. The line can’t move, it can’t change. You either believe that this is right and that is wrong, because once you’re in the job, and we’ve had experience of it, once you’re in the job you are subject to certain issues. You have authority. It was men tioned here very easily yesterday. You can arrest a person. You can make somebody go to gaol, if necessary. So I think the type of person is important, the requirements, the characteristics of that person is important. And also then once they’re in the job that you don’t leave them alone, and that you look at constantly developing them. It doesn’t need to be formal training; it can be on the job training, it can be short courses, it can be exposure, that you try and effectively try and manage their personal situations, because the jobs are stressful across the board, fire, traffic, Metro law enforcement. SAPS – it doesn’t matter. And that is an effective support programme. You know, normally when you join a uniform service, people in the service for a year or two would say, well, what’s my career path in now? Is there a possibility of me getting promotion, do I need to study? And you tend to find that people don’t want to study. They lose interest, they become sloppy, they become slipshod. The work standard is not right, they don’t treat people right. That’s – we also have experiences of that. I think your base is right – your idea is, if I recruit you now I want to keep you for the next 20 or 30 years, because that’s going to be your career. Yes, you can progress in the different fields. There’s specialisation, there’s administration, but I think your criteria is extremely important. And psychometric evaluation is important. You can pick up people – test people for drug use, test people for alcohol use. This is simple things. But we’ve only really started to do that the last two to three years also. There are a lot of unemployed people on the road. You can have your pick of people. You can be choosy about who you want to. So I think that sort of stuff is important. But once in the job, the maintaining is just as important. You want to – you want to – you want people to be proud of what they do. They must be proud to wear the uniform. They mustn’t be afraid to put it on. Those are the important stuff. And I – I just want to talk to you about my personal experience. I joined Cape Town in 2008 and I became the ED in 2009. We sat down and we made a calculated decision that you have a good policeman, or a good Metro policeman, and he is excellent from a technical point of view. Man, he can arrest and he can write out fines till he’s blue in the face. Perfect. No lawyer will trip him up in court. But the moment we move him to the different level where he becomes a supervisor and he then has to manage his ten friends with all their problems, with his alcohol problem, with his drunk problem, with his timekeeping problem, with his attendance problem, with his poor performance problem. He can’t manage that problem because he doesn’t have the skills to do that. So it’s important that wh en you choose people at whatever level – yes, your entry level requirements are less, they would be less, because you’re not requiring that level of competence. He’s not required to supervise people. He’s not required to manage a process. But when you move those people up into the next food chain, like we do with our sergeants and our superintendents and our senior sups, you need to make sure that you put in place a proper process that these people are evaluated critically, and whether he’s been a good po liceman for the past ten years. If he doesn’t possess the skills you need to manage staff, to deal with conflict, to deal with situations, to discipline staff, which is probably one of the most difficult things for any staff member to do, then he’s not the right person to have in the job at that level. Some people will remain policeman at the policeman level for all their lives. It’s like that with me also – I have traffic cops that’s been here 40 years, and they’ve been content to be traffic officers. But if you want to be ambitious, then you need to have the will and the drive, but also the ability to be ambitious. Discipline is a difficult thing. It’s very confrontational, and it’s easier to not discipline people. In the City of Cape Town no -one is allowed to suspend staff in that directorate except me, as my staff go. And, yes, I sit with situations – over the Festive Season in the Fire Department there were two incidents which we thought was absolutely unacceptable, in Hout Bay. And I should have prep ared a suspension letter. And the guy was in the office – he’s been working for 40 – for 27 years, and he broke down and he cried. But that wasn’t a relevant consideration for me, because I had to do what was in the interests of the City. We sorted him out. He’s now undertaking EAP, he’s been sober for a month, he’s walking a straight line. So it’s difficult. That’s an easy one, but when you get staff that are corrupt, that have been accused of taking money, that have been accused of taking bribes, they know as they walk in, I listen to what needs to be said, but there’s a greater interest. 90% of the people that are suspended in my directorate never come back to work for us again. So I think those are all important issues. But you have to start with the right person. It’s the quality of the people that you get. You need to get people whose internal control mechanisms are so good that they can resist all the outside influences. That to me – it sounds very criminology, but that’s what they say; your internal control mechanisms are good enough to resist the outside stuff. That’s important. Always (indistinct). MS BAW A: Can I switch from recruitment and training to lighting. I know it’s not your main area of focus, but I have two questions. We’ve now been in Khayelitsha for a couple of weeks – in fact, myself and Advocate Sidaki has been in and out here now regularly for a while. The lights are on the during the day and they’re off at night. Do you need somebody to call in to a complaints line to sort it out? MR BOSMAN: No. That shouldn’t be. I mean, that should be picked up in regular patrols in terms of maintenance. MS BAWA: It’s clearly not being picked up. It was picked up when we went out on our in loco inspection. It still happens. I mean, surely there must be a better methodology than waiting for somebody to ‘phone in a complaint. MR BOSMAN: It should be picked up. Our Utilities Department have what they call these random patrols in the areas, but if it’s not working, then we’re going to have to look at improving it. MS BAWA: My first comment. My second comment is the following: not only did we note that mass lighting was off when we did the inspection, but we’ve had evidence of high mast lighting being off for months on end, for years on end. Or witnesses saying to us, oh, that light has never worked. Now, your Affidavit is very restrictive in how it deals with it, because in paragraph 149 – and Mr Katz must be doing some nice drafting here, but the answer given is that there is currently a 9 0% burning rate on high mast lighting, and 75% on street lighting in sub -council 9 in Khayelitsha. But nothing gets told about the other two sub -councils and the percentages of lighting in those two sub-councils. Is there a reason why that information was omitted? MR BOSMAN: My understanding is that, I think that when the initial terms of reference for the location of the Commission came, the staff just presented that information in terms of that. But I think that if you require further information I will make an effort to make sure it’s presented. MS BAW A: I think it’s important, Mr Bosman, that a complete picture of all the information be provided to the Commission including, maybe, how long these mast lightings has been off, because the two that came out in oral evidence as being off, and it was pointed out, was in the map. It’s not even in the areas where we did an inspection. Which means that somewhere along the line there is a system that is not working at all in ensuring that there is lighting whe re you spend hundreds of thousands of Rand in putting lights up. MR BOSMAN: No, your point is make, Ms Bawa. Any concerns that have been conveyed to me I’ll make sure it’s carried over, and I’ll then make an effort to come back to you on it. MS BAW A: My other question is, I understood that when we put these high mast lights up, especially areas where it’s required, we put them into cement blocks to avoid them being vandalised to the point of where they can’t be used, and where high mast lighting goes off , it’s either an Eskom-related problem, or a cabling-related problem, and once again, Mr Bosman, the point is made that we don’t have stock. We can’t fix it. Now, we’re probably one of the biggest municipalities in this province. Surely we must begin to a nticipate where problems are going to develop for purposes of ensuring service delivery. MR BOSMAN: Your point is taken, Ms Bawa. MS BAWA: My final question deals with open spaces. We came to an open area and Ms Markram and Ms Olivier was going to repor t back to the Commission as to whether that was City property or not. I don’t know if you have an instruction in respect thereof. MR KATZ: I think, Ms Bawa’s referring to a square cement structure which had a – I showed a photograph of it to Ms Markram – Ms Markram’s cellphone, and you had a comment on it. Do you remember what that comment was? MR BOSMAN: I think she’s moving on to open spaces. MS BAWA: It’s Thandaza Road in Elitha Park. It has a structure on it that was identified by the community as being a hot spot area, and was identified as a structure that was either put up by the City or utilised by the City in relation thereto. I don’t know if your Metro cops is aware of it. But my question goes broader than that. There are certain open spaces th at belong to the City which they say they’ve put palisade fencing on, and that they don’t have control over open spaces that belongs to private persons. Surely as part of the policing agencies, if crimes are committed on land that has not been secured, it is in the hands of private people, something should be done against the owners of those lands that allow crimes to be committed on it. It is no different to the kinds of action the City takes when they rent out subsidised housing, and those properties get used for purposes of illicit drug - dealings, and the City takes a proactive stance in making sure that they evict those persons. Now, surely the same approach must be adopted in respect of public open space, or open spaces in the hands of private individuals that became havens of crime? MR BOSMAN: No, your point is taken, and I agree with you. I think in terms – in Khayelitsha South, some of the landowners are mainly Government, City, as well as Public Works Department, and I do agree. I think the point you make is valid that – but, again, you talk about – and this to me lends itself to an integrated approach, that everyone here is responsible for their respective portions and sections. And everyone has a role to play. MS BAW A: I don’t think the approach of the Commission has been any different since inception. MR BOSMAN: Mm. But I think it’s important if there’s improvements to come out of here, and the City can assist in any way, that we must. We have an obligation to do so. MS BAWA: I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BAWA COMMISSIONER: Thanks, Ms Bawa. Just a regrouping moment. It’s 20 to 5. If it would be possible to concl ude this witness’s evidence today, that would be good Mr Hathorn, how long do you think you’re likely to be? MR HATHORN: Commissioner, five to ten minutes is my estimate. COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Arendse? Or is it Mr Masuku? Any idea – an estimate, Mr Masuku. What do you think? MR MASUKU: I don’t think I’ll take long as well. COMMISSIONER: Okay. MR MASUKU: Because I know I have 45 minutes, but I’m – can we drag that till 5 and see whether it’s possible. COMMISSIONER: See how we’re going. MR MASUKU: Yes. COMMISSIONER: Alright. You’ve been in the hot seat over there for quite a while, Mr Bosman. Do you need a break, or are you happy to continue? MR BOSMAN: No, I’m happy to go, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: Okay. Thank you very much. Mr Hathorn? MR HATHORN: Thank you, Commissioners. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATHORN: Mr Bosman, Dr Janine Josias gave evidence to the Commission on the 29 th January that a serial rapist operating in the bushy area in Enkloveni (?) and she’d detected this through her work at the Thuthuzela Forensic Centre and she was – eventually managed to, through her intervention, a task team was established and her evidenc e was that the task team approached the City and requested the City to clear that area so as to remove the bushy area which provided shelter for the rapist to operate. And she said that the City refused that request. Can you explain why that request was r efused? MR BOSMAN: Okay. If I just may – it’s (intervention). MR KATZ: Commissioner, to my recollection – and I was here at the time – I don’t remember the evidence being to the effect that the City – that she directly requested anybody from the City, and there was uncertainty in her view, and she postulated and speculated, as I recall her evidence, as to why the particular bushes weren’t cleared. If I remember her evidence correctly. COMMISSIONER: Mr Hathorn, I can’t recall in great precision myself. MR HATHORN: Commissioner, her evidence was that the task – she didn’t that she approached the City, she said that the task team which was established by Commissioner Petros, Provincial Commissioner Petros, approached the City. There was no objection from the City at the time, so we took that as being correct. And I think the witness should be in a position to answer it. COMMISSIONER: Mr Katz? MR KATZ: I don’t have an objection to Mr Bosman answering it, but there wasn’t evidence from Dr Josias the City refused anything in her experience. And the other issue was that the City weren’t invited onto the task team, if I understood her – well, she didn’t know, that she was asked the question, was the City on the task team, and she said she didn’t know. So the way the question was framed wasn’t, in my view, fair to Mr Bosman. That’s all – I’m making the point. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. As we all know, this Commission is not determining any liability for any past conduct of whatever sort. But I think it would be appropriate to ask the witness whether he knows anything about this event, and what would be the considerations that might feed into a decision to refuse to remove bushes in circumstances where there’s a suspected serial rapist. Would you be happy with t hat, Mr Hathorn? MR HATHORN: Thank you, Commissioner. MR BOSMAN: Commissioner, if my memory serves me correct I read to Dr Josias – this was in 2010 when Commissioner Petros was still here; he left about October – October/November – the City was never part of the task team. I was on the Provincial Jointure at that stage. And I have made every effort to ascertain if indeed a request was sent through to the City. I’ve not been able to ascertain if any request was made to the City at that stage. I’ve check ed with the Department of Sports and Recreation as well as in our Environmental Resource area. The area in question is City land, you are correct. It is City land. But I’ve not been able to ascertain if any request was made. And that’s an honest answer, Commissioner. I have made an effort to do so, because Mr Katz said make an effort to find out what’s going on. MR HATHORN: Mr Bosman, can you respond – can you respond in writing to that? You can’t tell us today, but you’ve said that you’re going to mak e an effort to find out, and will you furnish the Commission with a written response to this question. If you can’t tell us whether the request was made, then we can’t take it further today. But it’s an important issue. The evidence was given without o bjection from the City, and the City was represented at the time. And I think it’s only fair that we find out, firstly, whether the City was in fact requested by the task team to clear the area. And, secondly, if that was the case, what the reasons were fo r the City not complying with the request. MR BOSMAN: Commissioner, I will do so. As I said, I made initial queries with some of my colleagues, but I will do so and I will provide it in writing back to the Commission. MR HATHORN: Mr Bosman, in paragraph 38 of your Affidavit, you refer to crime and disorder hot spots which are selected by the City for patrolling in order to maintain high levels of visibility and to reduce crime. Can you tell us how many hot spots were identified by the City in the course of 2013? MR BOSMAN: Okay. Commissioner, in terms of hot spots, we don’t identify hot spots. The SAPS identify – it was based on the ground test analysis, and they then deploy accordingly, and we deploy with them, but we don’t do our own independent analysis of crime stats. We rely on the SAPS crime stats analysis to identify what would be regarded as hot spots in the sense of having high incidents of crimes. But it’s not the City that does that. MR HATHORN: Can you tell us how many hot spots then were id entified? MR BOSMAN: In …? MR HATHORN: In 2013. MR BOSMAN: Well, you’d have to check with the SAPS. I wouldn’t be able to give an answer offhand on that. MR HATHORN: No. Mr Bosman, this is not acceptable. We put in written questions and I can’t tell you exactly when they were put in, but it was some time ago, and question 10 which we put in was: “How many crime and disorder hot spots were identified by the City in 2013?” MR BOSMAN: Okay. MR HATHORN: And you’ve had time to investigate that, and you s hould be in a position to answer that. So, unless you can tell me what steps you’ve taken to, between when you received these questions and now (intervention). COMMISSIONER: Mr Hathorn, may I just interject. I mean, you’ve asked how many hot spots were identified by the City, and I think the witness’s answer is, the City has identified none. But SAPS have identified some. So I don’t think it’s fair to the witness to say he hasn’t answered that question. MR HATHORN: Well, Commissioner, he certainly had no ticed that this line of questioning was going to be raised, and I would like to know what steps he’s taken to establish how many hot spots were identified. COMMISSIONER: By SAPS? MR HATHORN: Which the City used. I’m not – the thrust of the question to wh o identified the hot spots, but how many hot spots were identified MR KATZ: Well, Commissioner, may I just interject there. I’ve got a question in front of me that’s very clear: “How many crime and disorder hot spots were identified by the City in 201?” COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Katz. I had actually noticed that myself. MR KATZ: Yes. COMMISSIONER: But it will be helpful in this, Mr Bosman, if you cold give us some idea, if you have any idea of the number of hot spots there are in the City as identified by SAPS. MR BOSMAN: I wouldn’t be able to give you an answer offhand, Commissioner. I’m being honest. COMMISSIONER: In relation to Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: Well, Khayelitsha itself. I mean … COMMISSIONER: This is in evidence already before th e Commission and I draw to your attention, if you look at the audit reports for each of these three police stations, each of them indicates, and I can’t remember the number offhand, but it’s something like 9, 13 and 17 in the three. But the actual location s are not identified. But you can’t answer that? MR BOSMAN: No. I wouldn’t be honest to give you an answer. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR HATHORN: Commissioner, that’s why it would have been helpful. We don’t know what hot spots identified by SAPS were conveyed to the City. If it’s every single hot spot and every single police station, then the witness could have told us that. But we don’t know what hot spots they’re working with, and that’s – that’s – those were the questions that we wanted to know, and I want to know what measures he’s taken to be able to advise in the period since he received these questions and today. MR BOSMAN: Commissioner, my response was based on the question that we don’t identify hot spots. We don’t have crime (indistinct) ana lysis in opposition to the SAPS; we use the SAPS statistics for any sort of operations. They keep crime stats. COMMISSIONER: Perhaps you could tell us, do you get a list of hot spots from SAPS? MR BOSMAN: No. What we do is, we get the – the crime stats are released on an annual basis. We have access to them on the website. What you would normally find is that local police stations would identify particular problems, but we don’t get an actual list from the SAPS in terms of what hot spots exist, in either each of the police stations or the (indistinct) as such. COMMISSIONER: Okay, Mr Hathorn. MR HATHORN: How many patrols, hot spot patrols were organised in Khayelitsha in 2013? Can you tell us that, Mr Bosman? MR BOSMAN: That’s not a question that was put to me. MR HATHORN: I’m asking you today whether you can tell us that. MR BOSMAN: Staff are on – staff are on duty in Khayelitsha on a daily basis 365 days of the year, and they patrol the area 365 days of the year. MR HATHORN: In hot spots in Khayelitsha? MR BOSMAN: Wherever the hot spots would be, that would include it. There is an office in Khayelitsha at the moment. MR HATHORN: Mr Bosman, you gave evidence earlier that your equine unit was – it was unsuitable for it to patrol in informal settlements. Can you explain what the reason for that is? MR BOSMAN: In certain – well, in certain terrains equine units wouldn’t be – wouldn’t be suitable in densely packed areas. It is where access is a bit difficult, areas that are over hilly terrain and that, they would be difficult. You normally utilise them in areas where they have fairly free access – areas that are not accessible to members of the public as a matter of course. You’d use them in those areas. MR HATHORN: So you made a blanket state ment that it’s – they’re not suitable for patrols in informal settlements, but the nature of informal settlements can differ. There would be some informal settlements which are not so densely populated that they would preclude the use of horse patrols bein g used in those settlements. MR BOSMAN: It would depend on the terrain itself and the layout itself, yes. MR HATHORN: Moving to the question of the CCTV footage, Ms Harmse gave evidence earlier today that she wasn’t aware of any CCTV footage from the TMC being used in the Khayelitsha courts. You said that there had been requests from SAPS for the use of that footage. Can you tell us to what extent, or how many occasions the footage has been requested from your centre by SAPS. MR BOSMAN: I wouldn’t be able to give you a figure on that. But in terms of – in terms of your question, SAPS does have access to the footage. As I’ve said, they’ve got a member in the TMC, a SAPS member on duty during the day – at night, as well as in Cape Town. Once a detective a ccesses the footage, the SAPS would then deal with it further from that point of view. MR HATHORN: Mr Bosman, can you tell us how many convictions have resulted in courts in Khayelitsha from the use of that footage? MR BOSMAN: I would not be able to tell you. The convictions are dealt with via the SAPS, not via us. MR HATHORN: Does the City have a long-term plan for Khayelitsha? And by long-term, I mean for a period of ten years or more. MR BOSMAN: The City, like all municipalities, has to compile an integrated development plan and IDP plan on a five year basis which is reviewed annually, and that does have to have a human settlements component. To my knowledge, and I can’t speak offhand, the City does have an integrated settlement plan that’s got aspects of it attached to Khayelitsha. MR HATHORN: So there’s a five year IDP plan for the – a City-wide IDP plan, is that what you’re telling us, and there’s an informal settlement upgrade plan? MR BOSMAN: Yes. And IDPs, it’s a legal requirement for every municipality to compile at the start of (indistinct) term, and that’s got to have certain components like an integrated housing development plan, a water services plan, all those plans. So that would form part of it, although the municipalities have now started to embark on longer term planning, 20 and 30 year plans that will span different administrations if necessary. MR HATHORN: And there’s nothing specific to Khayelitsha itself as to which can give us an indication as to how the City envisages Khayelit sha looking ten, fifteen, twenty years from the present? MR BOSMAN: In the files that were handed in to the Commission, there are some in-depth information from the Housing Services section that will give an indication of the way forward in terms of what the City sees for Khayelitsha over the next 5 to 10 years. MR HATHORN: No. We’re aware of that. We’ve looked at those plans, but we’ve come up with nothing that’s been particularly helpful in understanding what the City’s long-term vision is for Khayelitsha. And that’s why we’re asking these questions, because we’re not sure. We really can’t understand from the documents that have been made available to us whether there is a plan in the first place and, secondly, if there is a plan, what the – how the City envisages Khayelitsha looking many years down the line. And it seems as though you’re not able to shed any light on that questions. MR BOSMAN: Unfortunately, I won’t be able to give you any specifics, Commissioner. COMMISSIONER: It would be helpful for the Commission, if there is an either a sort-of 2030 strategic vision or an integrated development plan, for us to have copies of that. You know, obviously that’s important in terms of planning the way forward. Mr Katz, would you be able to assist that? MR KATZ: Yes. Well, if I understand correctly, the City’s IDP for the next period has been supplied to the Commission. If there’re further specific documents, of course the City will offer them (intervention). COMMISSIONER: We’re talking about a sort -of strategic vision in a 20, 30 year framework, which I think as Mr Bosman quite correctly has pointed out, is the way in which municipalities or major metros are going. MR KATZ: Just thinking forward – yes, the answer is yes – I'm just thinking forward; would the Commission be satisfied if it were submitted in writing rather than … COMMISSIONER: Absolutely. Just a document, I think, would be most helpful. MR KATZ: So that’s the second request, and we certainly will make it available. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Mr Hathorn? MR HATHORN: Thank you, Commissioners. We have got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATHORN COMMISSIONER: Mr Masuku, or Mr Arendse – I get a bit confused. MR MASUKU: You know, I had prepared 14 questions, but I think Mr Bosman has covered a significant number of the questions I was going to ask. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MASUKU: I think the most important question for me that I must ask Mr Bosman is the following: you interact with the SAPS on a regular basis , am I correct? MR BOSMAN: That’s correct, sir. MR MASUKU: You would describe your relationship with SAPS as a very good relationship, right? MR BOSMAN: I have a good working relationship with them, yes. MR MASUKU: And you conduct joint operations wit h SAPS, right? MR BOSMAN: That is correct. MR MASUKU: And in those operations you have not – are you able to tell us whether the conduct of SAPS officials has been of a concerning nature, it’s been ineffective – what would you say about the conduct of SA PS in those operations? MR BOSMAN: In my experience, where we’ve been on the bigger stuff, I haven’t picked up anything that’s been worth raising anything. I mean, I’m also concerned about my own staff, so … MR MASUKU: Yes. MR BOSMAN: There hasn’t been anything that has been alarming to us in terms of the operations. Normally the operations are very specific, with specific objectives, and there would normally be a debriefing at the end, but nothing that I’ve picked up. MR MASUKU: Okay. So from where yo u stand and from your interaction with SAPS and from the position that you hold, would you consider it a fair statement that there is general incompetence in the police – in the police in the three stations of Khayelitsha, Harare and Lingelethu? MR BOSMAN: I would not be able to make that statement, sir. MR MASUKU: Why would you not be able to make that statement? MR BOSMAN: The level of our interaction with SAPS obviously is different. My staff are not based at SAPS, we do not deal with dockets, we do n ot deal with the reporting of crime, the investigation of crime, so I would not be able to give you a definite answer in that, sir. But I would say to you from my own observation, there isn’t a general air of incompetence in the SAPS, no. MR MASUKU: Yes. And from your operations with SAPS which are connected in Khayelitsha, would it be a fair statement that there is a general – that the community of Khayelitsha mistrust the police? Or – wait. And as a consequence of that mistrust, prefer informal systems o f justice. MR BOSMAN: No, I wouldn’t be able to give you an honest answer on that. I mean, I don’t have any experience with that, sir. MR MASUKU: In the circumstances, I have no further questions – oh, just … On the issue of lighting, I think you did giv e some answers which are a fair assessment, but the questions about the use of cameras and the maintenance schedules that are kept and all that, we will reserve that for Kevin Cole who is testifying, I think, tomorrow, or next week. COMMISSIONER: Next week. MR MASUKU: Next week, ja. COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Masuku. obviously is different. My staff are not based at SAPS, we do not deal with dockets, we do not deal with the reporting of crime, the investigation of crime, so I would not be able to give you a definite answer in that, sir. But I would say to you from my own observation, there isn’t a general air of incompetence in the SAPS, no. MR MASUKU: Yes. And from your operations with SAPS which are connected in Khayelitsha, would it be a fair stateme nt that there is a general – that the community of Khayelitsha mistrust the police? Or – wait. And as a consequence of that mistrust, prefer informal systems of justice. MR BOSMAN: No, I wouldn’t be able to give you an honest answer on that. I mean, I don’t have any experience with that, sir. MR MASUKU: In the circumstances, I have no further questions – oh, just … On the issue of lighting, I think you did give some answers which are a fair assessment, but the questions about the use of cameras and the ma intenance schedules that are kept and all that, we will reserve that for Kevin Cole who is testifying, I think, tomorrow, or next week. COMMISSIONER: Next week. MR MASUKU: Next week, ja. COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Masuku. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAS UKU COMMISSIONER: There may be one or two questions from the Commissioners. One in particular I wanted to ask, and that is the question of how feasible it is to have policing patrols in the informal areas of Khayelitsha, which is one of the reasons, I think, that the questions have been put to you about the use of horses. During the in loco inspections you will recall that one of the statements and impressions, I think, of everybody who was there is that this was a difficult policing environment, very nar row alley ways with sharp turns and underfoot very often very sandy, very difficult to find your way around because of the numbering issues and so on. What is your opinion as a person who’s been involved in law enforcement and policing over a long period o f time as to how feasible it is to in fact have policing in informal areas? Just ordinary patrols. MR BOSMAN: I think in most of those areas, obviously, because of the limited accessibility, you’d have to look at people out on foot patrols. And that in i tself obviously means that people are more exposed in that sense. So you’d have to then maybe work around, you know, how you’re going to patrol, would you patrol in sufficient numbers, where you’d be patrolling, would the staff be properly equipped to conduct those patrols. They need to make sure that there’s sufficient back-up at short notice in terms of the patrols. So those are the things you’d have to factor in. I mean, it would be silly to expect one to allow, say, two policemen to go into an informal settlement area where access is fairly restricted, to go into an area where there’s 3 or 4 000 people, without knowing it. So I think one would have to work – it’s not impossible – but I think you’d have to strategise around it properly and actually make a concerted effort to make sure than when you do patrols, that they’re structured, that the staff that are there have been made aware of the terrain. You’d obviously not go into an area that you don’t know about without having checked it out. Your dangers would be different during the day as they would be at night. So at night your challenges from an environmental point of view are obviously much higher than during the day. So those are stuff that you’d have to consider in terms of – it’s not impossible. It’s just that you’d have to structure it properly. COMMISSIONER: One of the things that struck me about (intervention). MR BOSMAN: If I just may – something that I picked up from the fire guys, and I just learnt this the other day, that when you have new people at the police station, then you should familiarise yourself – you should familiarise them with the area, that they should go out during the day initially when they’re new, to get used to the layout and the design of the area, get used to the street names, the nicknames for the streets, the nicknames for the areas. It’s what our fire guys do. They call it Familiarisation Tour s. And that is something that everybody can do with, whether you’re in the ambulance service or in the policing service. That is something that is important, so that when you are out – and also new people go out with old people; make sure you’re out wit h an older who knows the area, who knows the people. You don’t send in fresh people. Those are all practical considerations you take into account when you’re actually going to be doing your planning, because the areas have to be policed. COMMISSIONER: One of the things that struck me from your evidence was how many City employees are going in and out of informal areas all the time on a daily basis, whether it’s your emergency services like fire, or toilet replacement or lighting or – and they may be not City employees; they may be contractors of various sorts, but there’re a lot of people who are moving in and out of informal areas, providing services regularly and daily, and managing to do so appropriately – is that correct? MR BOSMAN: Ja. The only time we really – we really have problems with services issue is maybe service delivery protests in the areas, then we would notify the utilities and the other departments to stay clear because you tend to find that when there’s protests, Council vehicles are t he prime target, and they’re quite expensive. So, yes, I mean, now and then we would hear complaints of staff saying they maybe were sworn at, they were threatened. You know, that sort of thing. But generally speaking, our maintenance staff in the area a ccess – access freely, with the exception of course with the service delivery stuff with the toilets, that we’ve had to send staff into some of the areas to accompany them to clean out the toilets on a daily basis. At night time, obviously, it changes. B ut that is where, I think, your planning would be proper; you’d make sure that you know the terrain before you enter it, and that sort of stuff. COMMISSIONER: On this question, one of the problems that has become very apparent to the Commission over the last few weeks has been the – what seems to be an increasing problem of youth gangs, young groups of boys and girls, as I understand it, sort-of 12 to 18, who are territorial, but who engage in extremely violent battles, frankly, with various forms of weap ons and in which there are fatalities and many injuries very often in the same place week after week, and often at the same time. Now, again, from a policing perspective, is this something that can be managed and restrained, or is this something that act ually just has to be a no - go area for law enforcement officers? MR BOSMAN: I do know that in this area the SAPS have been making a concerted effort with their staff, especially on Friday afternoons, to patrol outside of certain schools. I know some of our staff last year that were actually threatened by some of the youth gangs, because the moment they see one or two staff, the staff become a target because they’re carrying a firearm. So the SAPS have been planning around those issues around some of the schools which, alright, the last year or two has seen an increase in gang activity in Khayelitsha, especially amongst the youth. And if anything those are the areas that really need to be worked on. COMMISSIONER: Thank you. MR PIKOLI: Thank you, Mr Bosman. You will have to correct me if I’m wrong here, because I’m relying on my fragile and failing memory! On the presidential project … MR BOSMAN: Yes, sir. MR PIKOLI: Aimed at combating and preventing crime, I seem to remember that each province had to identify, you know, certain areas. And there was Western Cape, if I’m right, identified Mitchell’s Plain and Khayelitsha. MR BOSMAN: Those were the two. They were called presidential urban nodes, or something, sir. I’m not quite sure. MR PIKOLI: And I think there were two. MR BOSMAN: Yes, there were two. MR PIKOLI: I think it was Mitchell’s Plain and Khayelitsha. MR BOSMAN: That’s right, sir. MR PIKOLI: And you received money from the Province. MR BOSMAN: Yes. My understanding is there was (inter vention). MR PIKOLI: To set up the CCTV cameras. MR BOSMAN: Yes. MR PIKOLI: The idea behind this was to pour in resources into these areas. Now, the money that you got from the Province for CCTV cameras, was it used only for Khayelitsha and Mitchell’s Plain? Would you know? MR BOSMAN: That’s a very difficult question. I won’t be able to answer you honestly. I wasn’t in Cape Town at that time. I was busy working in another municipality. MR PIKOLI: Okay MR BOSMAN: It would be difficult for me to answer that, sir. MR PIKOLI: Ja, okay. If you can check on that. MR BOSMAN: Yes. MR PIKOLI: And now you say that, well, Mitchell’s Plain has got 14 DDTC cameras, and Khayelitsha has got 16. MR BOSMAN: No, I actually mentioned Sea Point has got 14. Sea Point. MR PIKOLI: Sea Point also has got 14. MR BOSMAN: Ja. MR PIKOLI: Ja. And Mitchell’s Plain has got 14. MR BOSMAN: In the town centre, yes. MR PIKOLI: Yes. Of the 16 in Khayelitsha you say that ten are operational. MR BOSMAN: Yes. And this is (intervention). MR PIKOLI: Now … MR BOSMAN: As at – as at the fourth. MR PIKOLI: Ja. That gives you less than 70%. MR BOSMAN: Yes. MR PIKOLI: Which would be far below the norm. MR BOSMAN: Yes, absolutely. MR PIKOLI: Which should be worrying, given the purpose of having these CCTV cameras. MR BOSMAN: Mm. MR PIKOLI: But then, just coming back to what motivated the presidential project on crime fighting and prevention, you see, it was moved by co ming up with a comprehensive and integrated approach in crime fighting. MR BOSMAN: Correct. MR PIKOLI: That’s why we have got an inter -Departmental team. MR BOSMAN: Mm hmm. MR PIKOLI: Or teams that look, you know, at the question of crime fighting. Now, would you have a view on whether this comprehensive and integrated approach, meaning the national Departments, the provincial Departments, and the local Departments, are working together in assuring that, you know, this is achieved – what’s your view on that? MR BOSMAN: I think – I mean, (indistinct) race Government cooperation is always an area that is an area of concern that must be improved upon, and I think national Government makes a once -off investment in an area, a capital investment. And they leave local Government to carry on their incurring costs afterwards. And those are then subject to competing priorities. So I think that you are right, there is the initial intention to set up this integrated stuff, but you tend to find that they tend to lose a bit of momentum over the years. Policies, directives, change, processes change. So they tend to lose a bit of momentum, and you tend to find, and I searched for that, the municipalities are then left to deal with the issues on their own. And I thi nk this is possibly what has also happened here when we have now become solely responsible for all the maintenance, all the installation of the cameras. So I think that your comment is that the initial injection of energy given into it hasn’t been sustained, no. It hasn’t. MS BAW A: At the risk of getting Advocate Masuku’s wrath, there was just three issues that I think – do you think that crime intelligent is – crime intelligence is an important component of law enforcement? MR BOSMAN: Yes, it is. There’s occasions where, when given properly and vetted properly can be very, very effective. MS BAW A: And for that you would require a good system of informers, isn’t that so? MR BOSMAN: Yes, you do. We don’t have informers; we’re not allowed to have informers. Only the SAPS deal with the info0rmers because they’ve got a protocol. But what we done as the City is that we’ve introduced a – basically an awards system, where people can disclose stuff to us, and it it’s successful we would then pay them a certain amount of cash in exchange for that. It’s a new policy we adopted last year, after many years of debating whether we could or we couldn’t. MS BAW A: Do you have any knowledge of the crime intelligence capacity in Khayelitsha? The SAPS crime intelli gence capacity in Khayelitsha. MR BOSMAN: None whatsoever. MS BAWA: Okay. Do you occasionally receive complaints which are sent to you in your capacity as head of the directorate, which are actually complaints against SAPS members? MR BOSMAN: Yes, and sometimes I would get a letter addressed to the mayor, for instance, or an email from somebody and I would then direct it to the SAPS. People sometimes confuse – or people think the mayor’s in charge of the police, so they will send it to me. I had one of Woodstock last week, one evening where a lady complained about two members of the SAPS, but she sent it to me. Two members that were (indistinct), which I then passed onto the SAPS, and I normally get an acknowledgement from the PC’s office that they woul d deal with it. So there is that, sometimes that confusion, but I pass it onto the SAPS, because I know it’s not our staff. MS BAWA: Do you get feedback? MR BOSMAN: On occasions I’ve gotten feedback, but for most cases I haven’t – I must be honest with you, my view has been it’s SAPS members. SAPS would then have the obligation to feedback. MS BAW A: And my last question, your relationship with SAPS seems to be very different from the Department of Community Safety, albeit that you all sit on joints. Is it – is it – you enjoy an operational relationship with SAPS, given the nature of your tasks. The Department of Community Safety has a different mandate; it’s a an oversight and monitoring function. Can one attribute the difference in the relationship to a cultural (indistinct) in SAPS? MR BOSMAN: I think you are right. In actual fact, SAPS have a bit of an oversight role over Metro police in that they approve our annual police plan. And our role is different in terms of docks, you’re absolutely right. B ut I also think that relations between individuals are important. I make a concerted effort to seek out people and be as helpful as possible, and I think that where there’s an oversight role there’s probably always a limit of reservation, but from a – we do have more of an operational role with SAPS. We as docks has an oversight role. And maybe the way that oversight role is structured, that in itself lends itself (indistinct). I don’t always – we haven’t always agreed with SAPS on everything, and where we’ve had disagreements I’ve actively sought to try and resolve it as best as possible. MS BAW A: One last question – have you ever had cause to refer or have you ever referred any complaints against SAPS to IPID, or Docks, for that matter, who has those functions? MR BOSMAN: No. IPID has an oversight role over my staff, so complaints of my staff in respect of certain serious offences are referred directly to IPID also by ourselves. We have to refer to IPID by ourselves. But I’ve never had to do that. If I get SAPS complaints, I send it to SAPS. COMMISSIONER: Anything further, Mr Katz? MR KATZ: No. No further questions to Mr Bosman. Just let me tell the Commission – if I understand it correctly, arising from the questions by the Commission and cross-examination, there are three issues that need to be followed up. The one is the – let’s call it the master plan issue. The second is the lighting percentages other than sub -council 9 which is referred to in paragraph 149 in Mr Bosman’s Affidavit. And the q uestion arising from the Commission as to the issue of the money, the presidential money issue. Those are the three. The City will make an effort to provide in writing their answers to the questions, and I was just wondering if there are other issues that arise, maybe we could do it as a basket at the end of Phase 1, rather than piecemeal bit by bit. That’s my one question. The second question is from a personal level. The witnesses who were scheduled for this afternoon, the SJC witnesses, is there a time that they have been slotted in rather than tomorrow? I don’t know whether that’s been finalised. COMMISSIONER: Yes. No, I’m aware of that request. Let me just hear from Ms Bawa on the document issue. MS BAW A: I didn’t raise it because I thought it woul d come up in SJC, but the Affidavit sets out the amount that the City spends in relation to lighting, electricity. It doesn’t break down the component of that that gets spent in Khayelitsha specifically. And it might be of interest that that be part of the – that that is known for the experts who come in the second phase. MR HATHORN: Commissioner, if I can just point out, there was also the response to the evidence raised by Dr Josias, an whether the bush clearing, whether the City was approached about the bush clearing as well. COMMISSIONER: Yes. I’ve got it. MR HATHORN: That’s the fourth issue that needs to be dealt with. COMMISSIONER: (inaudible–parties speaking simultaneously). MR HATHORN: Our request would be that the City be put to terms to deal wi th this by Monday or Tuesday so that if – if necessary, Mr Bosman can be recalled to give evidence and be0 cross -examined about the responses furnished. COMMISSIONER: Yes. I mean, I think Monday or Tuesday would probably be a bit quick. But let’s – can we have a conversation before we set a time limit? I’d just like to have – just have a conversation with Mr Katz about it. There may be other information that we will want at the end of this, but some of this information may be important in relation to the evidence that’s going to be given by SAPS towards the end of next week and the following week, so we certainly would want it before SAPS gives evidence. So if you could – we will set a specific time. I just need to look through it, discuss it with Advoc ate Pikoli, and we’ll set a time. I do want to talk a little about where we’re going, but first to say, thank you again, Mr Bosman. You may stand down. We’re very grateful to you for all that you’ve given, for all the reports that the City has provided. They are very helpful. And we will come back to you if there are further queries along the way. MR BOSMAN: Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED