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Origins Interviewer I’m going to ask you a little bit about West Point as we begin. So—and some of this is just merely what they call tagging to be able to—the camera’s running now—to be able to allow the transcriber to set this in a certain—according to certain search mechanisms. So, what class at West Point were you? Andrew Bacevich 1969. Interviewer 1. And you were—you come from where? Where did you grow up? Andrew Bacevich Indiana. Interviewer Indiana, so did I. Andrew Bacevich Oh, really? Where? Interviewer Yeah, Indianapolis, where we— Andrew Bacevich Okay, upstate, Calumet region, around Hammond and Highland and places like that. Interviewer And can you tell me just in general terms the various assignments that you had during your career, particularly your career in the military, but even going up to your academic career, just so we list off, and then we’ll get back to it. Andrew Bacevich Sure. I served as a commissioned officer for 23 years, short tour— after school, short tour at Fort Riley, deployed to Vietnam in the summer of 1970. Stayed there until the summer of 1971. In Vietnam, I served first with the 2nd Squadron, 1st Cavalry, and then the 1st Squadron, 10th Cavalry. When I came home, I was assigned to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment at Fort Bliss. The regiment moved—excuse me, at Fort Lewis, Washington, the regiment moved to Fort Bliss, and I moved with it. That’s where I commanded K Troop, 3rd Squadron, 3rd Cavalry. Then, I went to the Armor [School] Advanced Course and Princeton for graduate school. From Princeton, I came here to the History Department. Taught in the History Department from 1977 to ’80. ’80 to ’81, student at Leavenworth. Andrew Bacevich ’81 to ’84 in Germany. I was the S-3 of the 3rd Squadron, 2nd ACR and then the S- 3 of the 11th ACR. Came back to the States, was a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Then, went back to Fort Bliss from ’85 to ’87, where I commanded the 2nd Squadron, 3rd ACR. Eighty-seven to ’88, I was a fellow at Harvard at the Kennedy School. ’88, back to Germany. From ’88 to ’90, I was first the G-3 at the 1st Armor Division and then the Chief of Staff at the 1st Armor Division. In 1990, I took command of the 11th ACR in Fulda and commanded that until 1992 when I left the Army. In 1992, I went to the Johns Hopkins SAIS. That’s their graduate school of international affairs in Washington. Stayed there six years, until I was moved to Boston University in 1998, and I’ve been teaching at Boston University ever since. Interviewer And what inspired you to come to West Point? Andrew Bacevich Hard to remember. You know, there’s a—was once a relatively well-known series of juvenile novels by Red Reeder. The protagonist was Clint Lane—four volumes—and it followed Clint lane through his cadet career. Friend of mine in grade school owned those and loaned ’em to me. I think that was my first exposure the Military Academy as a place that one could go to, but beyond that, both my parents were World War II veterans. Grew up in a relatively conservative Catholic household, in which patriotism was a value that you sort of consumed with your corn flakes in the morning. And when I finished high school, I knew I wanted to go out East to school, because I thought out East was where sophisticated people were, and my choices came down to Princeton or the Military Academy. And I can’t really remember why I took the Military Academy. I think part of it was to save money for my parents, but nonetheless, that was the choice I made. Interviewer I’m always curious about people’s immigrant background. With the name “Bacevich,†that’s Eastern European, I would— Andrew Bacevich Lithuanian. Interviewer Lithuanian. Andrew Bacevich The name was originally Bacevochis, so it’s one of these names that the suffix got changed somewhere along the way, but people, most people think I should be a Serb or a Croat, but it’s Lithuanian. Interviewer And on your mother’s side, what was your mother’s maiden name then? Andrew Bacevich Her name was Bolfur. It was a sort of a mix of Irish and German and English and—one of those mongrel kind of families. Interviewer And how far back are your immigrant roots to this country? Andrew Bacevich My—I don’t know on my mother’s side of the family. On my father’s side of the family, my grandfather and his wife immigrated from Lithuania probably somewhere around 1910 and settled in northwest Indiana in East Chicago.  Interviewer Because of the heavy sort of Eastern European and German and all that— Andrew Bacevich Huge, huge—huge Lithuanian, Polish population around there, and I think that’s—they were moving to what had already become an established Lithuanian- American enclave. Ascending the Ranks: An Ethical Gray Area Interviewer Tell me a little bit about your experience at West Point. You arrive here, were you surprised? Were you thrilled? Were you disappointed? Andrew Bacevich Oh, I think I was—I mean, as a general judgment, I didn’t enjoy my four years here. It was a four-year-long trial in which my sense in retrospect was that we were continuously being evaluated in one way or the other, and the game, as it were, was to be sufficiently ready for that next evaluation, which was probably coming either this afternoon or tomorrow, that you could get over that hurdle, and then immediately prepare for what was going to be the next evaluation. So, it was demanding. It was busy. It did not provide, in my judgment, again in retrospect—I wouldn’t have said this at the time—did not provide a particularly good education from an undergraduate perspective. It did, I think, constitute a very powerful socialization process that was intended to and did imprint a particular set of values, not necessarily the values advertised by the Military Academy. There was more to that socialization process than simply persuading you that duty, honor, and country were values to which one needed to subscribe. Interviewer Then, what are those values if you’re saying that they weren’t the ones that were advertised? What did you—how would you characterize the values that were being—you were being exposed to? Andrew Bacevich That although officially duty, honor, and country were the values that—to which an Academy graduate should subscribe, at the same time, there was—a second set of messages was one that defined professional value or professional worth in terms of how far you get up the hierarchy in rank and that ascending that hierarchy, in many respects, was the principle sort of vector that should define your sense of self-esteem— Interviewer So, hierarchy— Andrew Bacevich —and so making the next school selection list or being selected early for promotion. Those weren’t simply—wasn’t simply evidence of a new opportunity. It was an affirmation that you were among the elect. Interviewer It was a measure, in other words. Andrew Bacevich Right, it was a deeply—again, I don’t—I say this in retrospect, ’cause it was not at all—I didn’t have any real conscious awareness of this when I was a serving officer. But, it was deeply corrupting and, I think, contributed to the careerism which I certainly witnessed in the Officer Corps, and I say with some embarrassment probably contributed to a certain amount of careerism that I exhibited in my own behavior. Interviewer And you say it’s corrupting ’cause it was ambition for ambition’s sake and because it would maybe sacrifice your own values in order to advance, is that right? Andrew Bacevich Yeah, I mean, yes, bluntly. Interviewer That’s a leading question of mine, if we’re talking about leading questions, what†” Andrew Bacevich No. But, it’s true. I mean, one—you know, in retrospect, I only say this in retrospect, I mean, the importance of service is in service, and the value of a captain’s service is, in fact, not any less than the value of the four-star general’s service.  But, the notions that I absorbed here led me to believe, and quite frankly, I think led most of the rest of my classmates to believe, that a captain’s service had value only to the extent that it was going get the captain to become a major, to become a lieutenant colonel, and continue along that path. And that very insidious idea is one that can lead you to compromise the advertised values of duty, honor, and country, or to subordinate the advertised values of duty, honor, and country to this other definition of what it means to be a professional. Interviewer So, it seemed it could confirm a kind of mediocrity then, is that right? Because you’re looking to be judged only in terms of how you can advance, and squash creativity, would you say? Or are these—are going too far? Andrew Bacevich Well, I think it—it discourages independence. It discourages critical thinking. It discourages candor, expression of unwelcome views. It encourages conformity, encourages you to keep your mouth shut rather than to venture an opinion that may not be welcome.

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