A CONVERSATION WITH JOHN SEXTON by James J. Unger I recently enjoyed the opportunity for a lengthy visit with John Sexton, Dean of the New York University School of Law, in his Washington Square office. John is that rare individual who has "done it all" during both his forensic and his legal lives. The insights and reflections which he offers combine wide-ranging experiences as a championship coach, scholar, classroom teacher, legal dean and profes- sional leader. Sharing the discussion with John and myself was Loren Danzis, Debate Coach at The American University and Chief of Administration at the National Forensics Institute.

JIM: John, you are in a unique position for Ros- maturation process for lawyers. In fact one sees trum readers to breach the two areas of what I call great deals of money spent these days on running forensic advocacy and legal advocacy. You served jury models and studies to see how different kinds for fifteen years as Debate Coach; you now serve as of advocacy affect different audiences. The con- Dean of one of the most prominent law schools in sciousness of the audience in the communicative the country. Do you feel that the standards of ad- process is something that is very sophisticated and vocacy are any different for the person in the court- is taught at the best levels of competitive debate. room and the person in the debate room? The notion that most discussions of ideas do not stop at a first level, you know what we call in de- JOHN: I think there is no better preparation bate "extending the argument," is an extremely im- for law school and a career in the law than competi- portant part of good legal advocacy. In a debate tive debate and I think that the advocacy involved context, some of the "hottest" legal scholarship that's at the highest level is almost completely congruent. at elite schools reduces to what we would call in In fact, I think that in some ways debate is a supe- debate terms a first negative speech. We as debat- rior training to what's offered in some law schools. ers understand conversations about ideas have to Let me be more specific. go into several levels of exten- First, we as debaters are commit- sion. And legal thinking at the ted to a contest of ideas. We un- best level is done with those sev- derstand that in order to commu- eral levels of extension. nicate and persuade it is critical I think there is no The one area where I ob- to understand in a nuanced way better preparation serve legal thinking and reason- what our opponent is saying, and for law school ing moving beyond what we do to understand our opponent's ar- and a career in in debate, is the superficial pre- gument in its strongest form. So sentation of argumentation in this builds in a person a capacity the law than time limits and the argumenta- to listen. competitive debate tive pressure one puts on with We also understand the mal- the spread. Very rarely did one leability of words. One of the ma- ever see someone [in debate] turing processes that goes on for stop to explain an argument for a competitive debater is maturing out of the sopho- three of four minutes. At the highest level legal moric explanation of a defeat in a round because reasoning will frequently require almost a the judge made a mistake, and maturing into an un- talmudic reading of text and, of course, there aren't derstanding that a judge comes into a round as a the time constraints that there are in debate. Rea- tabula rasa, upon which the speakers write. In or- soning can go on in a much more nuanced way. I der to write, the speakers have to communicate think outside of the debate room debaters are ex- their ideas into that judge's mind. In the process of traordinarily more attentive to the reading of text communication, the sophisticated communicator than are ordinary people. More and more I am com- has to understand that words are very malleable ing to realize that debate is good preparation not and that a combination of words in a sentence or a just for law but for any profession, or any business. combination of sentences in a paragraph have a kaleidoscopic quality to them and you have to con- JIM: Do you think that debate tournaments stantly be aware of your listener -- in the context are a critical part of that education? of competitive debate, the judge; in the context of court room advocacy, a jury or a judge. You have to Debaters incorporate almost subconsciously a be conscious not only of the way you mean the goal orientation which involves an identification words, but of the way the words can be perceived of a goal. You want to get to point x, and point x by others who may in good faith enter from differ- might mean being prepared for the Emory Debate ent vantage points. And debate is a very important Tournament, and by the Emory Debate Tourna- ment you've got to have yourself ready on [your] JOHN: I'd start off with an ability to motivate case and you may want a variation case for particu- one's self, to set and see a goal, to set and see the lar teams, and you've got to be prepared for affir- intermediate steps that get you to that goal, neatly mative cases you're going to meet. Without even summarized in the maxim that a journey of a thou- thinking about it, the debaters at the highest level sand miles begins with a step, or, to use another Con- begin moving towards that goal of being ready for fucian metaphor, that great people know how to a tournament. They instinctively incorporate the move a mountain one spoonful at a time. Debaters need to plan out intermediate steps as a way to get and those who are going to excel in the law have to that goal. This quality of being able to think in got to have that kind of general quality. terms of a goal that is distant, to embrace an enor- A second quality one must have in both the ar- mous task, and to develop a plan of intermediate eas is the simple quality to listen, to be open, to hear steps to get to it, I'm talking about the plan of pre- what someone else is saying as the first and most paring at the highest levels for competitive debate, important part of communication. Think about it becomes second nature to all of us. That knack is in the context of debate: you can't refute an argu- extraordinarily rare at all levels. It's what people ment if you don't understand it. If you don't listen in some way try to capture by the analogous expe- carefully, and you respond to the version with rience by doing a Ph. D. disserta- which you're overly familiar, that's tion. You know, I think the rea- a ticket to disaster in debate. It is son why people have to do Ph. D. also a ticket to disaster in putting dissertations is because it teaches together a big deal for Paramount them how to put together a com- and QVC, or trying to persuade a plex body of material, and start jury that your client deserves com- going though levels of prepara- pensation because he or she was ex- tion the way debaters go through posed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. with debate topics. So, in the end Next, you have to be a creative you've produced this entire treat- thinker, which means, both analyti- ment of a subject and you can an- cal and synthetic thinking. What swer anything that comes up in good debaters and good lawyers any quadrant of that subject. combine is an analysis of intellec- You know we invest an enor- tual problems, synthesis and orga- mous amount of energy in our ad- nization of material, location of missions process here at NYU. wholes, totalities that other people We're one of the two or three don't see. Debaters and lawyers also most selective schools in the coun- see holes in the sense of gaps that try. Each application is read by other people don't see and then they three people and it's all quite fill in those gaps. All of this is tied professionalized. But frankly, as up into an affirmative communica- far as I was concerned Admis- tion package where one has to be sions could go to the quarter-fi- able to articulate to others, in a way nal round at any of the top de- that they can understand. In this bate tournaments in the country case we will be dealing with people and admit the students that were across a broad spectrum of intelli- in that quarter-final round. I gence, vocabulary, and cultural dif- mean, not that they would come ference in the world of tomorrow Dean John Sexton ... here out of high school, but just as we deal more and more globally. say to them, five, six years in advance, you know So the essential role of the lawyer and the debater whenever you want to come to NYU you come be- are as bridge communicators. I think these are the cause you've already identified yourself as a per- essential elements. son who has the qualities we want. You have this Now, how they play themselves out in specific goal orientation, you are self-starting, you have mo- contexts really depends on the world in which one tivation, and many other intellectual qualities. I puts oneself. It will look very different if one is a think there is a tremendous overlap and rigor here. trial lawyer or if one is a deal lawyer. You know Put simply, the education the folks are getting in some lawyers, some of the most important lawyers debate, if they're doing it at the highest level, and in the United States, never appear in court, never doing it for the right reasons, is unmatched. come near a trial. So one can't have a stereotyped view of what lawyers do, and skills will play out in LOREN: Dean Sexton, what would you desig- different ways. You know, written communicative nate to be the primary skills and abilities of the suc- skills will be more important than verbal commu- cessful debater and the successful law student of nicative skills in some contexts. Human skills which the future. In your opinion what are some of the I translate into the ability not only to hear, but to qualities that debate and or legal education refine? signal people through nonverbal communication that you are hearing and listening to them, might ary, and where they read a case in a casebook which be more important in some contexts, the ability to cites other cases which cite other cases which cite calm people down. other cases; and literally, if you just continued to I think one thing debaters should learn, that read you would be in a never ending process. And they do not always learn, is not to personalize argu- frequently they say to me, "John, why don't we have ments. This is again part of the maturation process. monthly exams so we can know how we're doing." You know as a freshman and sophomore in high Or, "We feel the work is never done. We find our- school you tend to get hurt personally identifying selves in the movie theater on Saturday night what's going on in debate, in the competition, and watching a movie and we're feeling guilty because in the judgements that are made for and against you. there's another case we could be reading that was If one was in a deal making context, or in negotia- cited in the case that we last read." I say to them, tions where clients really tend to go ballistic, they and I think it's part of legal education and also part are very personally involved. The role of the law- of debate if one makes the connection, that one has yer is to model calm and depersonalization in the to learn when one has done enough. And one has to sense of not taking it personally and bringing ob- develop an internal clock for that. jectivity to it. So these are some of the characteris- For example, in preparing for a debate tour- tics that are important for good nament there is always another ar- debating and good lawyering. ticle that can be read to try to find yet another quote. You have to sense JIM: John, is the prepara- the time in which you have read tion that a student may get in enough to start making, putting to- debate unlimited in nature? gether, your case. And the time in Many of the student readers, for which you should stop reading on example, will be involved in one topic and begin reading on an- high school forensics. Do you other topic to prepare another line think that there is a significant of argumentation. That's very much additive role to be played by col- a matter of an internal clock, and I lege forensics, or are two, three think debate and law school teach years of debate enough to incul- that same thing. Its also a matter of cate the kinds of skills you've settling one's own standard of excel- been talking about? lence, and not allowing those stan- dards to come from external grati- JOHN: It's not easily cap- fication. tured in years. A lot has to do Now to carry forth the discus- with intensity. The experience sion with my first year students. that I had as a student in high With them you have got to move school for example, even though away from grades because when I was at a very good program was they're out there in a professional not nearly as intense as the ex- world, they have to know them- perience that the students at St. selves whether they've done an "A" Brendan's had in our program. I job, or whether they don't want to think the general answer to your do an "A" job, and they'd rather do a question, for students coming "B" job professionally, but essen- out of a wide variety of pro- ...debater, coach, lawyer. tially have more time for their fami- grams, is that probably there is lies. These are trade-offs they have a payoff in continuing to refine the skills. There to begin to learn to make. Now, in debate, we do a certainly is an advantage in learning from a differ- good job preparing the students for part of that ent mentor, working with a good college coach. But, maturation process. What debate fails to do in some one of the things one has to learn in law and in life ways is teach them to move away from the exter- is a kind of internal standard of excellence and a nal gratification. standard of learning. I don't know if Jim remembers this, but in the If I can use my first year law students as an fifteen years I worked with the St. Brendan's stu- example. You know they come here, all of them, dents, never once did those students see a ballot with a lifetime of success in academics. When I go from a round. And never once did they ask judges in to teach the 150 first year students here, all of if they had won or lost the round. And, we didn't whom have graduated from college, the best col- tell them whether they had won or lost the round. leges, with A minus averages or better, and many We always had one of our graduates, or me, or some- of them have Phd, and MDs, and CPAs, and they body else, sitting in on the round. And, we would have already been gratified throughout their life discuss how they could improve on their perfor- by success in academics. And, suddenly they're in a mance. One of the things that debate does with the first year class where there are no exams until Janu- balloting and the ranking and the trophies is provi- sion of this kind of external gratification. But I native route which is to have a relatively large think in general probably the college experience is squad, but will satisfy itself with local and regional worthwhile and I think the advantage of doing it outreach in terms of the competitive level. If you with a different mentor is a very positive thing. were structuring a program at this point in time, how do you think you might allocate your own re- LOREN: Dean Sexton, you spoke of the role of sources? In which direction do you think you might the mentor. I want to move our conversation to the be more inclined to move? subject of coaching. You spoke of your positions as both coach of St. Brendan's and professor of NYU JOHN: Well, my first reaction would be to re- first year law students. So many great debaters are ject this bipolar world that the question creates. As the product, at least partially, of great coaching. you know, we never had a dime, a budget. St. What are some of the similarities and differences Brendan's was a relatively poor school with stu- you see between the role of debate instruction dents who came from families that were not even verses the role of legal instruction? upper-middle class . They were working class fami- lies that couldn't afford to send their kids around. But we just committed ourselves to finding a way Admissions could go to the to generate the money from non-budgetary sources, quarter-final round at any of and expended a lot of effort in that regard. I pride the top debate tournaments in myself that in the fifteen years that I worked with the students at St. Brendan's, we never put a stu- the country and admit the dent off that team for lack of ability. students that were in that Now if I were forced into the bipolar world quarter final round that you describe, I guess the first question I would ask myself is, "how good is the region where I am?" I mean nationalization for the sake of nationaliza- JOHN: Debate presents an ideal toward which tion has some appeals, because I think there are cer- legal education must move. My own views here are tain lessons one learns by encountering people from very much a product of my own background in de- other parts of the country and people who by the bate. In my view teachers have to be committed to nature of being from other parts of the country a contest of ideas, and clearly teachers who are have developed whole different lines of attack to working in the context of debate are committed to a topic. So there are advantages to nationalization. that, but they also are committed to very intense But if one is in a very, very strong region, one can and communitarian personal involvement with stu- maybe capture eighty percent of the advantages dents. Whereas, I think legal educators do a very of debate. So I would want to know how strong the good job of attending to the first of those character- region is. istics, they don't do a very good job of attending to I think in general the bipolar world you are the second. Legal education in the United States really creating is not so much a regional -- national for the last century has been conducted bipolar world as it is, do I run a program with sev- paradigmatically in a large class environment with relatively little contact outside of the classroom be- tween professors and students. And I think there is In some ways debate is a an unease about this. There is a general movement superior training to what's to the direction of trying to disaggregate the classes, offered in some law schools at least in some context, to create more contact be- tween students and professors. And I think that is something legal education has to work on. We tend enty five or a hundred students in it, or do I run a to be large in classroom teaching. And if you're program with five or six students in it? And there going to have an experience in law school, it's going I have stronger feelings because now it comes back to be with one or two professors, instead of with all to the communitarian intense nature of what this of your professors. And I think we have to change experience is in my view at its best. On my model, that. We certainly are putting a lot of resources that family nature grows up around the intensity into changing it here at NYU. of the experience and is an important component of it. And that means relative smallness and not a JIM: Perhaps the fundamental decision which program of a hundred or a hundred and fifty or I find at least traveling around the country at both two hundred kids, not phalanxes of teams going out the college level and the high school level that has where their coach doesn't really have a lot of indi- to be faced by the coach, the director of forensics, is vidual contact with the students. I just couldn't imag- budgetary adjustment. Ever more schools are ine running a program like that because I think forced to make a decision between having a rela- you're compromising too much of the rigor and the tive small squad which will travel extensively on a quality of instruction that I'm looking for in this. I'd national circuit of competition, or taking the alter- rather multiply coaches. I wouldn't label teams A JIM: What led you, John, to leave debate? You B C D or E, I'd have different names or colors or some- were one of the most prominent debate coaches in thing like that, and have more programs at a school, the country and now your connections with debate you know then one program of a hundred people. are much more reduced. I should mention something that may not be obvious, but that is a very important component of JOHN: I think reduced is probably an under- the ideal as I see it. We did a lot more than debate. I statement. I made a decision in 1972 that the time could not have justified the time that I demanded had come for me personally to leave debate. It was of the students who made the commitment to the more a personal decision than one connected to de- society if all we were doing was debate. Part of the bate itself. I had been intensely involved in debate message was that this was about ideas. The meta- since I had been in high school. When I graduated phor I used to use was about expanding the number from high school in 1959, I immediately started the of octaves on the piano that one played intellectu- team at St. Brendan's in 1960. By 1972 I had been ally. And you know one did that in a vertical way involved in St. Brendan's for twelve years and in- with regard to the debate topic. But, they did that volved is in a way an understatement because I constantly in a horizontal way by exposing them- think it is literally true that it was as intense a teach- selves to experiences otherwise ing experience as one could have. not available. And this was a People familiar with debate critical part of what we did. As won't be surprised that some part of the debate program, we weeks I spent a hundred hours read the great books, and dis- with the "society" as we called it. cussed them together. We also So through 1972 I had really been extensively studied the history subordinating everything else of art and music. We visited mu- professional in my life, to that. I seums. We went to plays and had also consciously postponed concerts. Each year we would going to law school in order to go to Tanglewood as a group to stay involved with my debaters hear the Boston Symphony Or- because I knew that I couldn't do chestra for three days. I tried to law school and debate well to- commit to each of the girls that gether. So I made that decision she would see each of the forty- in 1972, but felt that I couldn't eight states, the forty-eight con- walk out on my four years of stu- tinuous states, before she gradu- dents at St. Brendan's at the time. ated. My dream was to get them So when I made the decision I de- to Alaska, but I could never get cided that we just wouldn't take money to get them to Alaska. I any more students into the soci- did get some of them to Hawaii ety and I would wait until those as well as the forty-eight states. who were freshman graduated As far as I know we kept that and there were six young women promise for each of the kids. who were freshman that year If all a national debate pro- who went through those final gram constitutes is moving to a three years. So when 1975 came different part of the country, to and the last of those folks gradu- debate in classrooms that hap- NYU Law School ated I went off to law school. This pen to be in a different state, had been such an extraordinary then the only advantage one is getting out of a na- and meaningful chapter of my life for me and had tional debating program is the fact that one possi- such a strong pull on me and I loved debate so much bly is encountering students who have thought and I loved the people, especially the students in about the topic differently. Now that, of course, debate, so much that I felt the only way to move imposes on each of us moving within this world of away from it was to move away from it absolutely debate yet another obligation. We have got to get and not come back. These are kind of sacred and persons willing to put in all the hours of debate; but compartmentalized years for me. I am sure that you have to get a person who is also willing to put over the years I have idealized them, and they're in the time to do these other things and has the ca- even better now then they actually were. But, they pacity to do these other things. But, I'm sorry. That are very special to me and I've kind of wanted to just comes with being given this great gift of being maintain them in my memory in that way. able to work with some of the finest and brightest young people in the country, in the most intense LOREN: Dean Sexton, I want to shift our con- experience that they'll ever have in their lives if versation to the issue of research. With the focus you do it right. on authoritative analysis and evidence, both in the legal profession and in competitive debate, meth- ods of collecting the best research have become largest in Japan and their students sitting in their very relevant to producing success. Today those dorms can do the same to ours which is one of the methods of research are changing: CD-ROM, Lexis/ two or three largest collections in the United States. Nexis, Westlaw. What do you see as the role of tech- That's one obvious application. But I think the more nology in these two disciplines? profound application will be the way thought mod- eling will simply just occur differently in this tech- JOHN: I think it's transformative and daunt- nological world. Obviously, it will play back into ing, for people my age. When I think of all the time debate at the research level. It will also play back that we spent in libraries sitting there on the floor into debate, so I would hope you get to the point going through obscure journals trying to find yet where you don't have to carry these [tubs] around. another level of information. And when one con- trasts that with the fact that one can just sit down JIM: What would happen if the advances in at Nexis or Lexis or one of these machines and just technology grow such that we can just sit at home plug in words, its mind boggling. Now, with a data- and have our own tournaments? By that I mean, base that's available, you enter and you sit at your connect up with students all around the country computer and you ruminate not in preexisting cat- through the telephone, or perhaps video. Do you egories, but in categories that strike you as rising envision fairly shortly that we will not need to do out of the problem you are dealing with. And you all this traveling any more at all? type in associ- ated words and JOHN: I you can pull in was just out at not from pi- Sony-Columbia. geon hole cat- One of our gradu- egories, but ates is the CEO from an un- out there and he adulterated, took me into this uncategorized experimental database, ev- theater they erything that's have where the relevant. It just movies are this makes cutting super-advanced edge thinking technology; it's and argumen- like virtual real- tation possible ity. And we're go- in a revolution- ing to be in that ary way. It's world in ten not just the years. I think technological, that one will be but the whole able to capture in new ways of that world a great thinking that deal of the advan- become pos- tage of competi- sible. And of New York University tive debate, as course that one can capture analogy works perfectly with debate as well. In- in chess today, through these computer modems. stead of going to the index of the New York Times, You can play chess with people you never see. I am and trying to find all the articles on category x, now sure that might be a way to expand participation in you can begin to play around with concepts and its your [debate] program; it might be a way to cut clear to me in dozens of different ways this tech- down on the need for week-in week-out travel that nology, none of which as a CEO I understand, is the we did. But I would argue strenuously that there course of the future. are all kinds of things you lose if you just came to I'm building the first global law school. We're depend upon technology exclusively. First of all, one of the elite law schools in the United States and this is the romantic in me, I mean there was some- playing off the advantage of being in New York thing about getting in that van on Thursdays to- City so it seems natural to connect ourselves to the gether and just riding off which was mystical. great law schools around the world. And one of the There's something about human bonding. I'm talk- ways we're doing that is technologically and in our ing now about the bonding of us as a society, those library. We have a plan underway for example with of us who were involved at St. Brendan's. And I'm the leading law school in Japan to connect their li- sure that our experience is not unique. brary and our library so that our students sitting in our dorm can access their collection which is the JIM: Perhaps the most attractive career op- tion open to debaters, is one in the law. And yet JOHN: One of the inevitabilities of the next confronted with the image media of the law, century is the fact that national boundaries will whether you're talking about Perry Mason or L.A. become less and less significant, and we will move Law, there is the idea that bad lawyers make good closer and closer to a notion of ourselves as a global news. The legal profession is not held in very high village. And as that happens, it is equally clear and esteem in many areas of the country. You tell us, inevitable that law and the rule of law is going to just your own quick assessment of the soundness of be the basic underpinning of globalization. Eco- that profession and more importantly, how excit- nomic transactions can not occur without a confi- ing a career opportunity you think studies in the dence on both sides that contracts, for example, will law open up to an individual? be honored. I visited China last spring and it's clear that one JOHN: Individuals have different interests. of the impediments that China has right now to My son's an actor, there are the mathematicians in economic development is the fact that they have the world, there are scientists. For me, there's not a no tradition of contract. And they're groping for close second in terms of excitement, intellectual an understanding of what the very notion of con- stimulation, empowerment to make a difference, tract means. And of course they're turning to the to law. You know, deTocqueville noticed about United States for a model. It is also clear that the America that we are a society where law is essen- rule of law will be the underpinning of the move- tially our civil religion. We made a decision as a ment of societies from nondemocratic to democratic country, a correct decision in my view, not to have forms of government. This is not an economic issue, an official governmental religion. But, we look to this is an individual rights issue. And I saw that law much like religion. We turned law into the eco- when I visited South Korea which has its first demo- nomic underpinning of the country. We turned to cratically elected president and as he gropes with law to set the fundamental relationships of govern- moving form a totalitarian government to a demo- ment and people. We turned to law to resolve our cratic government the rule of law is important.

I think Bill Clinton is the You might think he's the closest thing to a high school greatest or the worst, but you'd debater we've ever had love to have him on your team

most difficult disputes. It's not surprising given that So, it's clear that one of our major export com- role, that lawyers are not held in higher repute. modities over the next century is going to be law. If you give to a particular profession the obli- And it's clear that globalization is going to occur. gation of examining and treating the most difficult For legal education, we're going to have to confront disputes in society you will create a lot of tension, a the fact that virtually no lawyer will be able to lot of anger, a lot of unhappiness around what that behave as a local lawyer. All lawyers will become profession does. So, it is not surprising that global lawyers. societyhas both the general view of lawyers that it does which is negative and the concrete view of law- JIM: As Dean of one of the most prominent yers that it does which is where most people say law schools in the country, I'd like to ask if you could they are very happy with the lawyer representing give me your impressions about the quality of pub- them. But the profession is a profession where you lic policy argument as it is practiced in front on the can really make a difference. And you can make a public today by our elected officials. difference in virtually any forum you want. It's debate at the highest level. I can't think of anything JOHN: Well, there's a marked difference be- that I would find more exciting, and I suspect that tween the quality of public policy discussion in the for many of those who have been drawn to debate, popular media and public policy discussion in the that they would find more exciting. media that is designed more for the intellectual elite of the country. The contrast between for ex- JIM: I wondered if you might speak briefly to ample the network nightly news on the one hand something that your own literature titles "The Law and C-SPAN on the other. And I think that I would School in the Global Village." This concept of the join the chorus of people who bemoan the move- global village is something that's in many respects ment to kind of media image and sound-bites. I mean new to high school students. I wonder what you this is antithetical to what debate is about. One talks might say would be some of the ramifications of about an average quote on network television now this concept of the global village and how it oper- being done in seven seconds and the average story ates or interacts with the teaching of law? being under three minutes on the network news. You know what kind of treatment you have of ex- tensions of arguments. It's sad to see our policy dis- cussions, for example, on the President's health care plan or on NAFTA reduced to sound-bites and dema- JOHN SEXTON goguery. Frankly I think that of all the presidents dur- The most successful high school debate ing my lifetime -- I can't remember FDR or Truman coach of his time, John Edward Sexton estab- -- but from Eisenhower on including John Kennedy, lished and directed the debate program at St. I think Bill Clinton is the closest thing to a high Brendan’s, a small Catholic Girls High School in school debater that we've ever had. I mean you Brooklyn, N.Y. might think he's the greatest or the worst, but you'd At St. Brendan’s Mr. Sexton raised over love to have him on your debate team. And you'd $100,000 a year to conduct a total educational pro- love to have Hillary on your debate team. Even Al gram that traveled and debated nationally. Gore is not so bad, although he reminds me more of John Sexton began his debate career as a an orator than a debater. And I don't mean to men- Brooklyn Prep (NY) student. As NFL member tion only the incumbents, There are some good 104613 he graduated with 401 points. He began people out there, and when one sees them in the coaching while in college and was awarded his context like C-SPAN where they have a couple of coaching diamond in 1970. hours to discuss an issue, one understands the ca- St. Brendan’s was in the final round of de- pacity for public policy discussion that's there. bate at the 1967 National Tournament, one of We now have just a massive cultural diminish- seven appearances at Nationals. Three times St. ing of our attention span, related to being a visual, Brendan’s was the largest NFL chapter in the rather than a written and verbal, culture. But I New York City District. think that the deficiency in public policy discus- At the National Catholic Forensic League sion can be traced to the deep cultural problem that “the girls” as they were often called on the cir- we're becoming more and more a culture of imme- cuit reached the final round six times and won five. Add to this 5 state and 4 NFL District de- bate titles. John traveled the team widely and success- fully. They were Barkley Forum Champions at One has to learn when one Emory University in 1970 and 1975. Mr. Sexton has done enough. One has was elected a key coach in 1973. to develop an internal clock Other National invitational tournament successes were achieved at Georgetown, the Mi- ami Beach Forensic Festival, Wake Forest and other major invitational tournaments. diate stimulation and gratification and short atten- Brother Gregory Rene’, former NCFL Presi- tion span, and we're moving away from being a so- dent, remembers John’s teams as “exceptionally ciety that values depth and is willing to delay grati- well prepared.” fication. And to that extent I think that debate is a John earned a BA in History in 1963, an MA good antidote. in Comparative Religion in 1965 and a Ph. D. in History of American Religion in 1978 all from JIM: John, let me just ask if you have any final Fordham University. He graduated J.D. magna thoughts that you might like to share with us. cum laude from Harvard Law School in 1979. He has co-authored five books on the law as well as JOHN: None except to say to the extraordi- numerous articles. nary people who are involved in working with fo- Before being named Dean at the New York rensics, what tremendous admiration I have for University School of Law, John clerked for them. And, to those whose paths crossed with mine, Chief Justice Warren Burger at the Supreme to those who gave me many good memories, I just Court and Judge David Bazelon at the U.S. Court want to say I always think of those years lovingly of Appeals in Washington D.C. Previous to his and with great gratitude. I would not trade those legal studies John taught religion in three New fifteen years working with the students at St. York colleges and ran a large national test prepa- Brendan's for anything. They were sacred years ration service. for me. They were sacred years principally because Dean Sexton currently serves as a special of the students, but in large measure too because of master supervising pretrial proceedings in the some of the magnificent people whom I met, some Love Canal Litigation. John has testified before of whom I'm confident are still involved in this ac- congressional committees and filed briefs be- tivity which is without peer. And I just would like fore the US Supreme Court. them to know that I think of them often and always As Dean at NYU he is building a “global law with love and I have great admiration for them. And school” for the 21st Century. if they're ever around NYU and want to stop in with a bus load of their debaters, I'd be happy to see them!