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Dáil Éireann DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COISTE UM CHUNTAIS PHOIBLÍ COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Déardaoin, 25 Deireadh Fómhair 2018 Thursday, 25 October 2018 The Committee met at 9 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Bobby Aylward, Deputy Alan Farrell, Deputy Shane Cassells, Deputy Marc MacSharry, Deputy Catherine Connolly, Deputy Catherine Murphy, Deputy David Cullinane, Deputy Kate O’Connell. DEPUTY SEAN FLEMING IN THE CHAIR. 1 PAC Mr. Seamus McCarthy (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined. Business of Committee Chairman: We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is joined by Deirdre Quaid, senior auditor. Apolo- gies have been received from Deputy Deering. I am holding over the minutes of the previous meeting and we will come to clear a few of them, in a group manner, shortly. Therefore, no matters arise from them as we have not dealt with them. Deputy Marc MacSharry: I appreciate we have correspondence and a good deal of work to get through but given the seriousness of the issue involving the 40 schools and media indica- tions that the number will be even more than that, we need to allocate an unforeseen but serious level of priority to examining that issue. When the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills appeared before the committee when we were dealing with Cork Institute of Technology, CIT, the Marine Institute and problems that arose there, I asked about reviews of public private partnerships and the very lengthy periods that are allowed to elapse before they are reviewed and now, at least in one instance but potentially in more than 40 others where there may be difficulties, schoolchildren will have no school to go to in the next few weeks. In terms of value for money, this is a very serious issue. Clearly, a level of oversight, enforcement and inspection took place during the construction of those schools but the problems that have emerged certainly seem to suggest those processes and procedures were defective. Perhaps there are new procedures. We should move quickly to request the people from, I presume, the building unit of the Department of Education and Skills to come before us to give an account of what seem to be clear failings in the system that operated at the time these schools were being constructed. Deputy David Cullinane: I support what Deputy MacSharry has said. This is a very seri- ous issue. It involves more than 40 schools and it may involve more. We all saw the images of the schoolchildren and their parents locked out of their school yesterday. I imagine temporary arrangements will have to be made which will involve a cost. There will be a cost involved for the taxpayer even in relocating the students. We do not know what remedial works will have to be carried out in all these schools to bring them up to the required standards. There are issues regarding contracts, regulation, enforcement and the other issues that have been raised. Would it be wise for us to request a detailed note from the Department on the number of and nature of the contracts for each of these schools and the number of schools involved? When we request that note, perhaps unfortunately more schools might be added to that list. We need a very de- tailed note on that. We also need to know the nature of the problems involved. We need as much information as we can get on it for the next meeting and we can determine then how we can map this from this committee’s perspective. We should definitely write to the Secretary General of the Department today and get as much information as possible. The big issue is the way it will affect the children concerned, but from our perspective there is the value for money aspect and the additional costs involved, which I imagine is a guaranteed. Unfortunately, there will be an additional cost involved for the taxpayer. We need to understand what happened, why, and what lessons will be learned. Deputy Catherine Murphy: When the tender was done, one of the factors that saved 2 25 OCTOBER 2018 money at the time was not having somebody on site to monitor the building. It is always harder to identify the faults that lie behind the walls once a building is completed. We need to focus on that particular aspect. Next week is the mid-term break in schools and assessments will be done and probably more information will become available after that. It might be useful to delay sending the letter until the end of next week as more information may have come into the Department, by which time it will have had sight of, or even a cursory glance over, the remain- ing schools that have to be examined. Deputy Catherine Connolly: I support that point and I do not need to repeat it. Regard- ing the ongoing inspection by the Department, I understand from an interview I heard that the Department was active in its inspection. We might have that clarified also in terms of what role it had when the schools were being built. Chairman: During the course of construction. Deputy Catherine Connolly: Yes, what the role, if any, the Department had. It has been alleged that it had an active role and that it went out to inspect the buildings at various stages. Chairman: Fine. Deputy Marc MacSharry: That is an important point. I note from media coverage that the company involved raised the fact that the Department was there every week or every two weeks inspecting, but who was inspecting? Was it administrative staff, a structural engineer or a quantity surveyor? Also, there are issues around planning enforcement in terms of planning and building regulations with respect to the impact there. If those questions could be included in the letter to the Department, that would inform our decision on this issue next week. Chairman: We are agreeing to write to the Department on those lines. We should ask it at this stage for the contract price for each of the schools involved. If we are sorting out the money side of this issue, we need to know the global cost of what is involved. We want to be specific on that. I propose that we write to the Department and ask that it reply by 13 November, as we have a meeting on 15 November. The Department will need a week or two to reply. If we get a quick reply, it will not be remotely complete. We will give it at least a fortnight and there will be updates on that. I am sure the Joint Committee on Education and Skills will deal with this issue but we will focus on the points that were mentioned, namely, the teaching, alternative ac- commodation, and the health and safety of students. The joint committee will inevitably deal with that latter aspect. A substantial element of the issue, however, involves the contract, the procurement process, the tendering, supervision and cost of the project. Regarding each contract, and the Depart- ment can give us the information in a variety of ways, but, in terms of the company that won the contract to build the schools, I want to know what was the next highest price submitted by the alternative contractors. Did the company that was awarded the contract come in as the cheap- est all round? In terms of its bid, where was it in the ranking? Was it marginally below the second one on the list or was it well below it? We would be worried if it was very well below the industry norm at the time. If it was, that in itself should have set off alarm bells. We want to examine that tendering process. We will seek that additional information from the Depart- ment on each of the tenders. We will ask it to give us as much information as it can supply by 13 November. That is a good two weeks away, and at that stage we can assess the issue at our meeting on 15 November. That is very helpful and I thank the members for raising that issue. 3 PAC The next item on the agenda is correspondence received since the last meeting. Under category A - briefing documents and opening statements, No. 1668 A is from Ms Karen Mur- phy from the Irish Council of Social Housing, dated 19 October, providing a briefing note for today’s meeting, including an overview of social housing provided by approved housing bod- ies, progress on publicly funded social housing outputs 2015–2018, the total amount of fund- ing approved and received from public sources, and details of lands transferred by any public bodies between 2015 and 2018. We will note and publish that. We will return to this topic in November. Deputy Catherine Murphy: Is that on the schedule? Chairman: No. 1668? Deputy Catherine Murphy: The Chairman said he will return to it. Chairman: It is. We are holding it over. All items related to the housing issue will be noted for today but they will be on our agenda for when have our second meeting on the housing situ- ation, which will be on 29 November. Deputy Catherine Murphy: Will that deal with the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme? There is a crossover between them. Chairman: There is. Chapter 10 in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report today, on which we have commented, is on the approved housing bodies. There is no statutory regulation there.
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