JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: President Trump called on all Republicans to stick together.
But in the days since House Democrats launched their impeachment inquiry, a handful of Republican lawmakers have been voicing concerns about the president's conversation with Ukraine's president.
Joining me now is the top Republican on the House Oversight Committee and one of the President Trump's biggest defenders in the House, Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio.
Thanks so much for joining us today.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): You bet. Good to be with you.
TAPPER: So, it is not just Democrats rebuking the president over the phone call. A number of Republicans have expressed concerns too.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): This remains deeply troubling. And we will see where it leads. But the first reaction is troubling.
REP. WILL HURD (R-TX): There's a lot of disturbing allegations.
REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): I want to say to the president, this is not OK. It isn't -- that conversation is not OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That's your fellow Ohio Republican Mike Turner there. The list goes on.
Republican Senator Ben Sasse called it very troubling. Republican Governors Phil Scott and Charlie Baker support the impeachment inquiry.
Do you have any problem with a U.S. president asking a foreign power to work with his personal attorney and the U.S. attorney to -- quote -- "look into" his political rival"
JORDAN: A couple of things.
No, I don't have any problem with the call. We have now seen the transcript. The president of Ukraine said that there was no pressure, he was not pushed.
Look, if Democrats want to impeach because Rudy Giuliani talked to a couple Ukrainians, good luck with that. I don't think the American people think that's the appropriate course of action.
I think they see this for what it is. This is just one of the many and unending attacks the Democrats have leveled against this president.
The Democrats just put us through three years of this phony Russia collusion investigation. And now, on the heels of that, they come right back with this.
We have all seen the transcript. There's nothing there. So I respectfully disagree with my colleagues who think that there needs to be a further inquiry here.
TAPPER: Well, let's talk about the transcript, because, in that transcript, President Trump says -- this is what the Ukrainian president, who desperately needed hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, including military aid, to beat back Russian aggression.
President Trump says: "There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution, and a lot of people wanting to find out about that."
That's not accurate, but in any case, that -- "So whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great. Biden went around bragging he stopped the prosecution. So if you could look into it, it sounds horrible to me."
Again, the description of the matters there is inaccurate.
But you really don't have any problem with the president of the United States leveraging his power to push a foreign leader to investigate a political rival?
JORDAN: What I have a problem is what the Democrats are doing.
Understand what happened here, Jake. You had a bureaucrat who didn't like the president...
TAPPER: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. What are you talking about?
JORDAN: We know -- we know he didn't like the president.
TAPPER: No, we don't know.
JORDAN: The inspector general says there's an indicia of arguable political bias. That is Washington...
TAPPER: That could...
JORDAN: That is Washington-speak for, this guy didn't like the president.
TAPPER: That -- that could -- let's -- actually, let's go into that, because I have that up here.
JORDAN: Let me finish my statement.
A bureaucrat who did -- who didn't like the president files a claim saying the president did something wrong on a call. This guy wasn't on the call. Someone else told him about the call.
So the White House does something that's never been done before. They actually released the transcript. We see the transcript. There's nothing there.
But the Democrats say, we don't care. We're going to move towards impeachment.
They don't care about the facts. They don't care about the truth. And you know why we know that? Because Nancy Pelosi did a press conference the day before and said she was going to move towards impeachment the day before she even saw the transcript.
That just shows you, these folks are bound and determined to go after this president no matter what. They did -- they put the country through three years...
TAPPER: Yes.
JORDAN: ... of this false Trump-Russia collusion issue, all the way through.
And it was...
TAPPER: So...
JORDAN: The Michael Cohen hearing didn't do it for them. The John Dean hearing didn't do it for them.
TAPPER: OK.
JORDAN: The Bob Mueller hearing fell apart. The Corey Lewandowski hearing didn't do it for them.
TAPPER: So...
JORDAN: So, now they come with this, the -- the -- the latest attack on the president.
TAPPER: So there's a lot you said there.
There's a lot of people that would look at what's in the Mueller report and say it's -- that's not nothing.
But talk -- let's talk...
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: You watched the Mueller hearing. You watched what happened there.
TAPPER: Let's talk about today. Let's talk about today.
You just described this individual, this whistle-blower. And I'm really, actually, surprised, because I have covered whistle-blowers when you were on the committee during the Obama years. And there was a lot more reverence for whistle-blowers during that period from Republicans than I'm hearing today.
You said that he was a bureaucrat who hated the president or disliked the president, biased against the president.
There is no evidence of that.
Let me read from the inspector general's report. It says: "Although the ICIG" -- that's the Intelligence Committee inspector general's -- "preliminary review identified some indicia" or -- "indicia of an arguable political bias on the part of the complainant in favor of a rival political candidate, such evidence did not change my determination that the complaint related to the urgent concern appears credible."
So, first of all, that could mean that he interned for John McCain 20 years ago. We have no idea what it means.
Second of all, he says in that same sentence that it did not change his determination that the complaint is credible.
That's a Trump appointee saying that.
JORDAN: Two things you look at.
Our committee -- I'm on the Oversight Committee. We probably deal with more whistle-blowers than any committee in Congress. Two things you look at to determine the credibility of a -- of a so-called whistle-blower when they're coming forward.
First, did they have firsthand knowledge? And, second, what is their motivation? Was there some kind of bias?
This individual has problems on both of those counts. He had no firsthand knowledge. He heard something from someone who may have heard something from someone.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: No, no, his -- his sources were firsthand sources.
JORDAN: So, he -- he has -- but he has no firsthand knowledge.
And, second, he has a political bias. That should tell us something about this guy who came forward with this claim. And now the Democrats are saying, because of this whistle-blower, we're going to impeach the president?
I say, look at the transcript. And the transcript gives you no reason to impeach this president...
TAPPER: Well...
JORDAN: ... overturn an election where the people spoke, I think, loud and clear.
TAPPER: You know as well as I do that you do not need to have firsthand knowledge to be a whistle- blower.
And even if you...
JORDAN: Well, you don't now because they changed the form. You used to. They changed the form.
TAPPER: There's no evidence of that.
And we looked into this. I know what you're talking about. You're talking about that Federalist story. It's not clear that that's accurate.
And, even so, experts say...
JORDAN: I have seen the form. The date...
TAPPER: It has -- it has never been true -- it has never been true that you need to have firsthand knowledge to be -- to be a whistle-blower.
JORDAN: Well, it -- but it's something that's critical when you're assessing if they're credible. That's a major determination.
TAPPER: So, listen to this. Here's what the complaint says, OK?
Quote -- this is from the whistle-blower -- "The president used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the president's 2020 reelection bid."
Now the acting director of national intelligence, Joseph Maguire, another Trump appointee, just like the inspector general, was asked by Congress about whether or not the transcript matched up with the complaint.
Here's what he had to say:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH MAGUIRE, ACTING DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I would say that the whistle- blower's complaint is in alignment with what was released yesterday today by the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, the acting director of national intelligence says that the transcript backs up what the whistle-blower says.
And we also found out that the White House did, in fact, take the transcript and put it in this secret compartmentalized -- compartmented...
JORDAN: And...
TAPPER: ... computer server to block anybody else from getting it. So those are the two main charges, and they're both true. They're both true.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: You know why they put it in the -- in the classified server?
Because this administration -- there was a -- there was a study, Jake, right here done by this -- by the Senate in 2017. More leaks in the first five months, state security leaks in the first five months of the Trump administration than any other administration.
They should be putting everything in there, with folks around who are leaking information. We remember the call to the former prime minister of Australia.
Here's what it says: "It is a fact that the Trump administration has been besieged by leaks at a level that far exceeds that of any other administration."
TAPPER: I recognize you guys don't want the facts coming out.
JORDAN: So, no, no, no, no. You got to protect from the leaks.
If I'm the Trump administration, I'd be putting every communication in this -- in this.
TAPPER: The leaks are of accurate information. The leaks are of accurate information.
You don't like the leaks coming out.
JORDAN: Jake, who you going to believe, the guy who had first -- back to the whistle -- who are you going to believe, the guy who had firsthand knowledge and who was on the call, President Zelensky, who said he wasn't pressured, or the guy who didn't have firsthand knowledge, the guy...
TAPPER: We have seen the transcript.
JORDAN: That's what I'm saying.
The guy who didn't have firsthand knowledge and is -- and had a motive against the president?
TAPPER: According to the acting director of national intelligence, the transcript is in alignment with the whistle-blower complaint.
We all see it. We all see it's a conversation. Zelensky wants military aid, and President Trump asks him to look into the Bidens.
I can't believe that that's OK with you.
JORDAN: Zelensky brings up he wants to drain the swamp in his country, like the president is doing here.
The president says, do me a favor. Can you figure out what happened in 2016?
I thought we all -- all cared about what happened in the 2016 election, how Russia and Ukraine...
TAPPER: And then he moves on to the Bidens. And then he moves on...
JORDAN: After -- after Zelensky says this important sentence: "In addition to that investigation, I want to do all investigations in an open and candid way."
Only then does the president bring up Biden. And my guess is, if you ask the American people, when they look at what happened with Joe Biden's son, I don't -- I don't -- I don't know that...
TAPPER: What happened with Joe Biden's son?
JORDAN: He got paid $50,000, Jake.
TAPPER: Yes?
JORDAN: Fifty thousand dollars a month for several years.
Now...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: And the Ukrainian prosecutor said there's no evidence of wrongdoing.
JORDAN: Come on.
TAPPER: What?
JORDAN: Come on.
The vice president's son gets paid $50,000 a month and gets hired by a company...
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: ... in an industry he has no experience in, and, oh, that's fine? And all you folks in the press and Democrats, oh, no problem here.
Go -- go to -- try telling that, taking that message to the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: If you want to propose a law...
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: ... who don't make $50,000 in a year. And when they see the vice president's son getting paid $50,000 a month in a field and an industry he has no experience in, I kind of want -- wonder what Hunter Biden did in those board meetings.
TAPPER: So...
JORDAN: Did he just look at his phone and check out the sport scores?
TAPPER: In May, the Ukrainian...
JORDAN: And he's getting paid $50,000.
And then when the company that's paying him that money is under investigation, guess what? Daddy comes running to the rescue, the vice president of United States come running...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: That's not what happened.
JORDAN: ... says, fire -- fire that prosecutor.
TAPPER: Sir, sir, that's not what happened.
The European Union, the Obama administration, the International Monetary Fund...
JORDAN: Well, you don't think Joe...
TAPPER: ... pro-clean government activists in Ukraine thought that the prosecutor...
JORDAN: You're saying...
TAPPER: ... was not prosecuting corruption.
JORDAN: You're saying Joe Biden didn't tell -- didn't tell Ukraine to fire that prosecutor? I think he did.
TAPPER: He did.
JORDAN: He bragged about it.
TAPPER: But the guy was -- the guy was not prosecuting anything. That was the problem.
The government of the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Here are the facts.
TAPPER: ... and the West -- you're not saying facts.
JORDAN: Joe Biden told him to fire the prosecutor.
TAPPER: You say, here are the facts.
JORDAN: No, here are the facts.
Did Joe Biden tell him to fire the prosecutor?
TAPPER: Because he wasn't going after corruption. He wasn't going after corruption.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Do you understand what I'm saying? He wasn't going after corruption?
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Was that prosecutor looking into Burisma, the company that had hired Joe Biden's son for $50,000? Yes.
TAPPER: According to the Ukrainians, that investigation was dormant at the time. That investigation was dormant at the time.
JORDAN: Most importantly, was Joe -- did Joe Biden's son get paid $50,000 a month in a field and an industry that he had no experience in? Those are three key facts.
TAPPER: If you want to push a law saying that the children of presidents and vice presidents should not be doing international business deals, I'm all for it.
But you're setting a standard that is not being met right now.
JORDAN: I'm just -- I'm just telling you what happened.
Joe Biden...
TAPPER: No, you're not.
JORDAN: ... called up and said, fire this prosecutor, or you're not getting aid.
TAPPER: No, you're suggesting that Biden called for the prosecutor to be fired to protect his son.
JORDAN: And President -- and President...
TAPPER: That's not what happened.
JORDAN: And President Trump says, oh, can you help me figure out what happened in the 2016 election? After all...
TAPPER: You know, Congressman...
JORDAN: ... Democrats just put our country through three years of this.
TAPPER: Congressman...
JORDAN: ... when there was a false accusation and there was no evidence of any type of coordination between the Trump campaign and Russia to influence that election.
TAPPER: Here's the thing.
JORDAN: And the president brings it up, and, somehow, that's...
TAPPER: Here's the thing.
JORDAN: He can't do that, but Joe Biden can do what he wants.
TAPPER: I want you to take a listen to the Vice President Mike Pence when he was governor running for vice president saying that it is a principle of the United States that foreign governments are not supposed to get involved in American elections.
Let's roll that tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, you all need to know out there -- this is basic stuff -- foreign donors and certainly foreign governments cannot participate in the American political process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That once was a principle of the United States.
But now...
JORDAN: Still is.
TAPPER: No, it's not, because the president is calling for Ukraine to investigate his rivals.
JORDAN: Jake, you're missing the fundamental point here.
TAPPER: I'm not missing anything.
JORDAN: The Democrats -- if you want to impeach -- if -- if -- if this is their argument, Rudy Giuliani talked to a Ukrainian, Rudy Giuliani, the private lawyer of the president, so we're going to impeach this president, give me a break.
TAPPER: I'm not saying whether -- I'm not...
JORDAN: I think the American people are going, really?
TAPPER: I'm not taking a position about...
JORDAN: In light of how they -- in light of what this president has been able to do leading our country, in light of the economic growth, what he's done with our Supreme Court justices, what he's done with the embassy in Jerusalem, a host of things, you really think the American people are like, wait a minute, so Rudy Giuliani, the president's private lawyer, had a private conversation...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: I think that you came here and leveled a bunch of accusations and allegations about -- about Hunter Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: I stated the facts. I didn't level -- I just said the facts.
Did he get paid $50,000 a month?
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: He was paid by a foreign company, yes. He was paid by Burisma.
JORDAN: Fifty thousand a month.
TAPPER: But Joe Biden was trying to get a prosecutor who was not pursuing corruption fired. And it was supported...
JORDAN: It's amazing the gymnastics you guys will go through to defend what...
TAPPER: Sir, it's not gymnastics. It's facts.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: And I would think somebody who's been accused of things in the last year and two would be more sensitive about throwing out wild allegations against people.
JORDAN: I'm not throwing out wild allegations. I'm throwing out the facts. You're -- the -- what...
TAPPER: The prosecutor was not pursuing corruption. That's why the entire West wanted him fired, including anti-corruption activists in Ukraine.
I don't understand what you don't get about that.
JORDAN: I get that.
I'm just talking about this specific case that there's been reporting on. And the facts of that specific case are what he was paid per month, $50,000. Like I said, that's more than some of the folks I get the privilege of representing in the Fourth District of Ohio get paid in a year.
He's getting at -- $50,000 a month, the vice's president son. He got hired for what?
TAPPER: The president's daughter right now is having all sorts of copyrights granted in foreign countries.
That doesn't alarm you. The president's sons...
JORDAN: Come on.
TAPPER: ... are doing all sorts of business all over the world.
JORDAN: Come on.
TAPPER: That doesn't alarm you.
JORDAN: Jake, come on.
TAPPER: What is come on?
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Either there's a principle that people should not benefit from their connections, or there isn't.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: The previous administration's FBI went after this president.
On July 31...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: They did a crappy job then, because they didn't even acknowledge there an investigation until after the election.
JORDAN: They spied on two Americans associated with President Trump's campaign.
They put Peter Strzok in charge of that...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: If they...
JORDAN: The guy -- who the guy who said Trump should lose 100 million to zero.
TAPPER: OK.
JORDAN: They allowed -- they allowed -- Jim Comey leaked documents to get a special counsel.
TAPPER: Sir.
JORDAN: They used the dossier to go get a warrant to spy on the campaign.
TAPPER: OK. Now we're back to the dossier and Peter Strzok.
JORDAN: No, I'm just saying, that's what happened to President Trump.
And then in light -- now that none of that worked, none of that worked...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: I understand you want to change the subject, but the president was pushing the president of Ukraine to investigate a political rival.
I cannot believe that that is OK with you. I can't believe it's OK with you.
If this is a principle...
JORDAN: It's not OK because he didn't -- but he didn't do that.
TAPPER: It's in the transcript. We all read it.
JORDAN: I have read the transcript.
TAPPER: He says that the Bidens need to be investigated.
JORDAN: You have got to read it in context. That's what you guys do. You guys don't read things in context.
The context is that that comes up when Zelensky is talking about all investigations, open and candid.
TAPPER: Congressman Jordan, we appreciate your passion.
Thank you so much for being here.