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INCONVERSATION

Gauhar Raza: Dr. Sinha, you are si ing Gauhar Raza: You must have heard many The discovery of fi ssion happened only on a chair where the most brilliant minds stories about great people like Dr. Homi in 1939, but then things moved very fast. once sat. How did you feel when you Jehangir Bhabha. Which one which one The fi rst nuclear reactor at Chicago was sat on the chair for the fi rst time? Did inspired you the most? demonstrated in 1942, followed by the it inspire you to do more? Did it humble Ratan Kumar Sinha: I joined the discovery of plutonium, and then by you? Did you feel more responsible? department six years after Dr. Homi Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These things all Ratan Kumar Sinha: I am fully aware Jehangir Bhabha’s demise, but the most happened within a span of 10 years. Dr. (of the honour). Even on that day, I inspiring part of his life history, was Bhabha was not just a scientist capable of was aware of the kind of responsibility when in the year 1944, he proposed to realising his full potential, he was a great attached to this chair, and thanks to the set up an institution called The Institute visionary too. foundations laid by my predecessors, of Fundamental Research. India was I felt quite comfortable and confi dent fi ghting hunger at that time. The Great Gauhar Raza: It’s a great organisation that the proud legacy, which I inherit, Bengal Famine was just behind us. There now. Thousands of people are working will continue to be carried forward. So, I were many things to worry about like with it today. It has always a racted would say, I was quite comfortable, but of hunger, poverty, and where the next the best of the minds from the areas course overwhelmed and humbled by the day’s meal would come from. Nuclear of Physics, Mechanical engineering, unique importance of that occasion. sciences were at a very nascent stage. Chemical engineering and many other Science Reporter, JANUARY 2016 20 INCONVERSATION Dr. RATAN KUMAR SINHA is the Chairman, Atomic Energy Commission, Mumbai. Earlier he was Director of the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC). Dr. Sinha has been guiding the programmes for new advanced reactors under design and development at BARC to utilize thorium including the Advanced Heavy Water Reactor (AHWR), which produces most of its power from thorium. Dr. Sinha carried out the design, development and installation of coolant channels and other core-internal structure components of the 100 MW Dhruva Research Reactor at BARC. Dr. Sinha has received a number of awards including the fi rst Homi Bhabha Science & Technology Award, VASVIK Award, Indian Nuclear Science Award and the DAE Special Contribution Award. He was awarded the Honorary Doctorate of Science (DSc) degree by the University of Mysore. He is a Fellow of the Indian National Academy of Engineering. Dr. Sinha has also represented India in many important forums of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) including the Steering Committee of the IAEA’s International Project on Innovative Nuclear Research Reactor and Fuel Cycles. In an interview with GAUHAR RAZA (telecast earlier on Rajya Sabha TV), Dr. Ratan Kumar Sinha talks about India’s successful nuclear programme, despite the several hardships and hurdles it faced.

fi elds, including medical doctors. Some on 3rd August 1954, and we are currently programme. So, those were the days of the brightest of the doctors have joined in the Diamond Jubilee year. During these when such projects would be completed you. This is an achievement we don’t see 60 years, we have gone through much very quickly; even now I wonder how in many other areas of science. What was historical turmoil after the May 1974 quickly they could build the APSARA the key to this achievement? Pokhran experiment. We suffered the reactor and set up the Plutonium Plant. Ratan Kumar Sinha: You have rightly technology denial regime. Today of course, we need to go through spelt it out. Human resource is the most several steps and processes, but still I precious asset any organisation can claim Gauhar Raza: Initially people were not feel, in those days too, they took care of to have, and that is why Dr. Bhabha’s ready to give us the know-how and as all the safety, and that is why no accident fi rst priority was to establish the Bhabha Dr. Homi Sethna once mentioned that has happened so far. But the speed really Atomic Research Centre (BARC) Training most of the scientists who were inducted amazes me even today, and it is an School. Of course, it was not called BARC by Bhabha including himself, did not example for us to follow forever. at that time. He was very clear about know anything about the material, the what kind of talented people should designs, and also how to operationalise Gauhar Raza: Dr. Sinha, we are be admitted for such training, and we the knowledge that they had of physics. discussing how the switch-over from maintain that tradition till today. Yet they did it. What inspired them to traditional reactors to fast breeder There are no set minimum numbers take such challenges in the face of denial reactors has happened. Why was the fast of vacancies and posts to be fi lled in a of information and technology? breeder reactor so important? particular year. There is no dilution of our Ratan Kumar Sinha: I would say, Ratan Kumar Sinha: You see, the energy standard. Every year, we go through the intelligence is like a torch. If you fi nd demand in our country, consistent with selection process, and the tradition set in darkness somewhere, you have to shine its population, is very large. In spite of 1957, when the 1st batch joined, has more the torch and then you can fi nd your our good efforts in setting up electricity or less been maintained till today. Because way out of a bad situation, because you generating plants of different kinds in the of this reason, when challenges do occur, are able to see where the path would lead country, we are still less than around one- we have the people, who are our assets, to. In the same way, the strength of our fi fth of the world average in per capita who can take care of the challenges and knowledge and the zeal to go ahead and electricity utilisation, and we have a long effectively address them. This is because move faster than what we did yesterday distance to cover. To make our way into there are three fundamental guidelines has carried us forward. the elite club of developed countries, for all our activities – excellence, self- You gave a good example of Dr. we need to have a per capita electricity reliance and relevance. We have to Homi Sethna. In fact, we celebrated the generation of the order of 4000 to 5000 achieve excellence and have world class 50 years of the Plutonium Plant in 2014. kwh per person per year. There is no technology, world class science, and He was the director of that important way we can march into that exclusive world class research. In case we are not project, which has led to our mastery of club, unless we maintain our imports of able to get the best from the world, we do the technology for the reprocessing of fuel resources. We don’t have enough the things ourselves. Our Department is the spent fuel to get plutonium, which uranium also at this stage. Our uranium now 60 years old. We started our journey is so vital for our fast breeder reactor resources are of low grade and those 21 Science Reporter, JANUARY 2016 INCONVERSATION which are known to be available cannot In our entire history of operation, we have attained more than provide us enough fuel for all our energy needs. four hundred thirty reactor years of operation in the country, not a single incident has taken place, leading to the release Gauhar Raza: About 200,000 tonnes, of radiation outside the plant, which is very small. beyond acceptable limits. GGauharauhar Raza: Now,Now, we are at thethe Ratan Kumar Sinha: 200,000 tonnes tthresholdhreshold ofof starting the second stage ofof is in situ underground. When we try So, we are quite perfect as tthehe nuclear energyenergy programme.programme. What is to convert it to mines, we have to look far as the technology is tthehe second stage? Although this second at the concentration and the grade. stage was conceived long back, why did Whether these are located in various concerned. it getget delayed?delayed? parts, or concentrated in one area? Are Ratan Kumar Sinha: There were slow- there any environmental concerns, for consume. In fast breeder reactors, this is down processes because of the technology example, tiger reserves, etc. There are exactly what we do. denial regime, as I mentioned earlier. Our various factors. The actual availability pace of growth in the fi rst stage itself is lower than what has been found in Gauhar Raza: We learned from the French slowed down. The Rajasthan atomic situ. So you can’t really go far with that. in the initial stages and then there were power station Unit 1 was constructed, What is most important for our country sanctions and then we improved upon commissioned and started to operate, is that we cannot be depending forever the technology. Would you like to tell but the 1974 test occurred and there was upon external sources for such strategic something about that because that is imposition of technology denial regime. resources. It will make us vulnerable. We where we excel, as compared to any other We took at least six years longer to are not a small country that can buy and country in the world? complete Unit-2. When we were building keep a stock for a long time. Ratan Kumar Sinha: There is also a the Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor very interesting story around that. Of (PFBR), there were only two such reactors Gauhar Raza: We have seen in the past, course, the French have been a great under construction. One was in India how vulnerable we can become once there friend of ours. After May 1974, naturally and the other one was in the Russian are sanctions. there were certain concerns in different Federation. Russian Federation reactor Ratan Kumar Sinha: Therefore, it is very parts of the world. The fast breeder test is just about completed. The technology important for us to make the best use of reactor technology came from France. is complex. It has to be made sure that the resources we have. What do we have? It was expected that the nuclear fuel for it would work. We have done a lot of Plenty of sunshine, wind power here that reactor would also be coming as a work in our Indira Gandhi Centre for and there, and plenty of thorium. That’s part of the contract. However, following Atomic Research (IGCAR) to develop all what I can count on, that’s what Dr. the technology denial regime there was this technology. Most of the components Bhabha counted on, that’s what all my a restraint on getting that kind of fuel we needed were being manufactured predecessors had counted on, and that’s from the French. This reactor was to run for the very fi rst time. What IGCAR did what all my Department is banking upon, on highly enriched uranium. We did not was to fi rst make a prototype, more or a philosophy to reach out from where have enrichment technologies in the late less simulating the scales. They got these we stand today to using thorium. To be 70s, when this project was made, though made fi rst by the industry, made sure they able to reach there, it is important that we we were working on that, and now we’ve worked in the experimental facilities, and go through the fast breeder route. With got that technology. But at that time, we made sure that our industries were able limited uranium, we can make use of the did not have this technology. All we had to work to the required quality standards. uranium in the existing uranium fuelled was a re-processing plant in Trombay, Then, as a part of the Prototype Fast reactors, which are now in operation, and plutonium was available to us from Breeder Reactor components, these and not throw it out after the spent fuel this plant. So, therefore, we thought equipment were ordered by BHAVINI (a comes out, but make use of the 99 percent whether we could make a nuclear fuel, Public Sector Unit under Department of of uranium 238, which is otherwise not which would work on this man-made Atomic Energy), for manufacture in our fi ssionable, by reprocessing. We also fi ssile material, as a substitute for the country. remove the part that has been converted natural uranium and enriched uranium? So, there was a learning phase. to plutonium. Plutonium is a man-made We have created a sort of world record See, you can’t make a reactor and start fi ssile material. Thus, our re-processing by using this mixed carbide type nuclear learning on the way. It has to be done plant, where the spent fuel goes, becomes fuel to very high levels of burn-up. Burn- upfront. That’s why there were delays in like another mine. It’s a ‘man made mine’ up means energy per tonne of uranium or the launch of this project. Since for Indian to extract a man-made fi ssile material, per tonne of heavy metal i.e. how much industries it was the fi rst-of-the-kind, which is a substitute for uranium. If you energy has been drawn from the fuel, in some cases the fi nal manufacture did look at it from this angle, we need to before you decide to take it away. It has take a little longer time. For the Prototype increase the through-put of these ‘mines’ reached a maximum of 160000 Mega- Fast Breeder Reactor (by its very name, as much as possible. That’s where the Watt days per tonne. It is more than four prototype is fi rst-of-a-kind), we needed fast breeder reactors come in. You need times the traditional numbers that we see to tolerate these delays. The next two to design reactors in such a manner that from existing reactor types (Light Water reactors, which are Fast Breeder Reactors they produce more plutonium than they Reactor type) operational in the world. (FBR) 1 and 2, will come up after some Science Reporter, JANUARY 2016 22 INCONVERSATION Particularly after the Fukushima accident, I have noticed that because of the large coverage in the media, and the dramatic way the events were broadcast by certain sections of the media, naturally the public has been concerned. I agree with them, we should passage which is provided fforor bringing be concerned; but as far the ththee moderatormoderator insiinsidede was no llongeronger avaiavailable.lable. How to handlehandle thethe situation?situation? technology is concerned, TTherehere were two proproblemsblems tthere,here, one we it is still robust. hhaveave to proviprovidede an aalternatelternate passage, but before thatthat, we had to remove some point of time started constructing a broken pieces. It was that part of the job, nuclear reactor. The numbers stayed put, removal of the pieces, which I think was I think at 33 with China. Afterwards, no extremely challenging. new countries joined till very recently. In Gulf, construction has started recently. Gauhar Raza: And it is a highly While in International Atomic Energy contaminated area? Agency (IAEA), as Chairman of one of Ratan Kumar Sinha: Very high level the very important committees, I am of radiation, of the order of one million aware that IAEA collected data about Roentgens per hour, which is extremely how many new countries were interested time. They will be on a fully commercial high. Considering the challenges, and in setting up nuclear power. It turned out scale, completed within the time frame. the urgency, a foreign contractor was that, at that time, more than 40 countries There will be no time and cost over runs engaged by the plant authorities to were willing to do that, but were not in their case. That would be the place to remove the broken pieces out of the active able to do it, because of lack of access ask me questions why it got delayed or area of the reactor. We had in parallel, to the technology, mainly because of otherwise. The PFBR was a learning-cum- in BARC, developed our own devices to proliferation concerns, etc. We happened technology demonstration phase. I think handle the situation, and it turned out to reach there faster, and therefore we we have done reasonably well. that we were ready at the site, when the acquired a leadership role. We could do equipment needed by the foreigners was it ourselves, and the required technology about to be received at Chennai. Since we Gauhar Raza: Dr. Sinha, was the denial came our way through our R&D strength. I were a little ahead of them in reaching the a good thing? think it was a very brilliant and important site, we were offered one of the reactors Ratan Kumar Sinha: Yes, I would say decision to promote atomic energy, which to start working, and immediately we that. If the escape door is closed, and you was taken at that point of time. worked on that. We put our gadgets, the see the adversary coming from the only manipulator was put at one end and the door, you will go there and fi ght with him. Gauhar Raza: You stood First as a camera at the other end, so we could see So, that’s what we did. And you can see student in Patna University and then you what was going on inside. We lifted the the entire self-reliance was facilitated by chose this career. You could have been a broken pieces, and as planned shifted it two things, attention to human resource mechanical engineer in any other industry to one part of the reactor and dropped development and complete support of and you would have done brilliantly. it there. That part of reactor was not our Government, right from day one. What was the Eureka moment in your life participating in the normal fl ow process, during this career? so it was allowed. There were two pieces, Gauhar Raza: Don’t you think that Ratan Kumar Sinha: There have been and we handled both of them. Then the it was a very diffi cult decision for the a number of moments of this kind. I time came to go to the second reactor. political leadership at that time to invest started my career right in the fi eld, when By then, the foreigners had also arrived in science and that too in an area that the Dhruva research reactor was under on the site and a conscious decision was may not give results for a long time? construction – completely indigenous taken by the then management of Nuclear Ratan Kumar Sinha: It is the country’s design and all manufacturing done within Power Corporation, and I think a very need in the future that one has to keep the country. I was made responsible for wise decision, that having invited them, in mind when one sits in the high chair. I development of some of the components they should be given the opportunity. So, can see no other way to meet these needs. which go inside the reactor, fi rst-of-the- they started the work with the heaviest In fact, the top twelve GDP countries in kind things. Everywhere we encountered broken piece to be handled, but they the world all bank upon nuclear energy in fi rst-of-the-kind challenges. An incident couldn’t budge it, so they went to the 2nd one form or the other, and therefore it was occurred in Madras Atomic Power Station & 3rd pieces. While they could handle important for us then, and it is important Units 1 and 2 in 1988-89. The moderator these two successfully, when it came to for us now too, to consider nuclear energy inlet manifold, which brings in huge the toughest fi rst piece, they struggled for as an important option. Right from 1985, quantity of heavy water into the reactor, another half a day, and then they gave up. there has not been any increase in the failed. This was a big challenge because Then they told me, “Mr. Sinha you have number of countries which have at any inside the reactor, things had failed. The your manipulator, can you try?” I told, I 23 Science Reporter, JANUARY 2016 INCONVERSATION natural events that can take place at any The fi rst nuclear reactor at Chicago was demonstrated in one of our sites. We have revisited the 1942, followed by the discovery of plutonium, and then scenarios after the Fukushima accident by Hiroshima and Nagasaki. once again, and quite comfortably, we can tthehe pressure fromfrom the public, therethere is a see that our reactors are much more than These things all happened mmistrustistrust about the effi cacy and ususabilityab equipped to handle any severe external within a span of 10 years. ooff atomic energy. How do you ccopeop up event that can take place. wwithith thethe two?two? Ratan Kumar Sinha: In our entire history Gauhar Raza: Scientists require could, if they just helped me a bit. They of operation, we have attained more encouragement. Which one of your had already put their camera on the other than four hundred thirty reactor years awards do you remember and cherish the end. I had my camera, but it would have of operation in the country, not a single most? taken up time unnecessarily to remove incident has taken place, leading to the Ratan Kumar Sinha: The fi rst one was their camera and put our own. I asked release of radiation outside the plant, the Homi Bhabha Science and Technology them to remove their manipulator, and beyond acceptable limits. So, we are Award. It was the award for the year 1992, allow me to look inside through their quite perfect as far as the technology is which I received in 1994. I will consider it camera. With the help of their camera concerned. Public opinion is a different as one of the most signifi cant recognitions and our manipulator, we successfully matter. Particularly after the Fukushima I received because that was the year when completed the task, and it was a moment accident, I have noticed that because of these awards were instituted. of great joy for us. I have a special the large coverage in the media, and the attachment to these two reactors, since dramatic way the events were broadcast both were practically given up for gone. (The interview is based on an interview telecast on by certain sections of the media, naturally Rajya Sabha TV as part of a series called “Eureka”. The plant continues to produce 400 MW, the public has been concerned. I agree The interview is available at http://scm.niscair. at full power. with them, we should be concerned; but res.in/videos/295/dr.-r-k-sinha,-chairman,-atomic- as far the technology is concerned, it is energy-commission-of-india.) Gauhar Raza: One of the problems still robust. There (in Japan) it manifested associated with atomic energy has been into an accident, but I don’t see any way Mr Gauhar Raza is Chief Scientist, CSIR- high pressure on scientists because they our reactors can suffer that accident. National Institute of Science Communication and cannot commit a mistake. The other is We have taken into account the extreme Information Resources

Science Reporter, JANUARY 2016 24