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House of Commons Business and Enterprise Committee Pub Companies Seventh Report of Session 2008–09 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 21 April 2009 HC 26-II [Incorporating HC 1183-i, Session 2007-08] Published on 13 May 2009 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00 The Business & Enterprise Committee The Business & Enterprise Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform. Current membership Peter Luff MP (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire) (Chairman) Mr Adrian Bailey MP (Labour, West Bromwich West) Roger Berry MP (Labour, Kingswood) Mr Brian Binley MP (Conservative, Northampton South) Mr Michael Clapham MP (Labour, Barnsley West and Penistone) Mr Lindsay Hoyle MP (Labour, Chorley) Miss Julie Kirkbride MP (Conservative, Bromsgrove) Anne Moffat MP (Labour, East Lothian) Mr Mark Oaten MP (Liberal Democrat, Winchester) Lembit Öpik MP (Liberal Democrat, Montgomeryshire) Mr Anthony Wright MP (Labour, Great Yarmouth) Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/parliamentary_committees Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at http://www.parliament.uk/bec Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are: Eve Samson (Clerk), Janna Jessee (Inquiry Manager), Louise Whitley (Inquiry Manager), Anita Fuki (Senior Committee Assistant), Eleanor Scarnell (Committee Assistant) and Jim Hudson (Committee Support Assistant). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerks of the Business and Enterprise Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5777; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses Tuesday 18 November 2009 Page Mr Brian Jacobs, Fair Pint Campaign, Mr Clive Davenport, Chairman for Trade and Industry, Federation of Small Businesses, and Mr Paul Daly, Publican, Zigfrid and Roadtrip Ev 1 Mr Martin Willis, Chair of the Trade Related Valuation Group, Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, Mr David Morgan, Chartered Surveyor and Mr Simon Clarke, Publican and qualified Chartered Surveyor Ev 10 Tuesday 9 December 2009 Mr Rob Hayward, Chief Executive, British Beer and Pub Association, Mr Nick Bish, Chief Executive, Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers and Mr John McNamara, Chief Executive, BII Ev 19 Mr Giles Thorley, Chief Executive and Mr Giles Kendall, Regional Operations Director, Punch Taverns plc, and Mr Ted Tuppen, Chief Executive and Mr Simon Townsend, Chief Operating Officer, Enterprise Inns plc Ev 31 List of written evidence Page 1 National Parliamentary Committee of the Guild of Master Victuallers Ev 46 2 Brian Jacobs Ev 47, 52 3 Kossway Ltd Ev 68 4 Karl Harrison Ev 71, 75, 76 5 Rose and Crown Ev 78 6 Interpub plc Ev 79 7 Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers (ALMR) Ev 81, 89, 90 8 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 95 9 Winter Hill Consultancy Ev 97 10 Enterprise Inns plc Ev 98, 104, 111, 117 11 Mark Charman Ev 119 12 Campaign for Real Ale (CAMRA) Ev 120 13 Herefordshire and Worcestershire CAMRA Ev 123 14 Admiral Taverns Ev 124 15 Sarah Ferdinand Ev 128 16 The Duke Public House Ev 128 17 Simon Clarke Ev 134, 137, 139, 143, 145 18 British Association of Pool Table Operators (BAPTO) Ev 146, 147 19 Federation of Small Businesses Ev 149 20 OSO Pub Company Ev 152 21 Graham Brown Ev 155 22 The Crown and Town Hall Tavern Ev 156 23 The Woolpack Ev 157 24 Borough Arms Ev 158 25 Jeff Rosenmeier Ev 159, 160 26 Punch Taverns plc Ev 161, 167, 177, 179, 183 27 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 183 28 The British Beer and Pub Association (BBPA) Ev 184, 189, 190 29 BII Ev 191, 193, 194 30 Business in Sport and Leisure Ev 196 31 Marston’s Pub Company plc Ev 197 32 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 203 33 Greene King plc Ev 204 34 South Norfolk Council Ev 210 35 Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors (RICS) Ev 213, 214 36 Peal O’ Bells Ev 215 37 Fair Pint Campaign Ev 219, 223, 226, 231 38 Stephen Broadhurst Ev 237 39 Federation of Licensed Victuallers Associations Ev 241 40 David Morgan Ev 243, 247, 248 41 The Progressive Pub Company Ltd (PPCL) Ev 248 42 Justice for Licensees Ev 251 43 Society of Independent Brewers Ev 254 44 Camelot Inns Ev 256 45 The Swan Inn Ev 257 46 Paul Daly Ev 259, 260 47 Eddie Cant Ev 261 48 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 261 49 Inez Ward Ev 261, 265 50 Anne Hewitt Ev 265 51 Mr and Mrs K Hutton Ev 266 52 JAT Leisure Ev 267 53 Shepherd Neame Ev 267 54 Nigel Wakefield Ev 268, 270, 272, 273 55 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 274 56 Memorandum submitted anonymously Ev 275 57 Good Pub Guide Ev 277 58 Office of Fair Trading Ev 277 59 Licensed Trade Charity Ev 279 60 David Law Ev 279 61 Dovedale Towers Ev 281 62 The Royal Oak Ev 282 63 Robert Milroy Ev 282 64 Gareth Thomas MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Consumer Affairs, BERR Ev 282 65 Lisa Smith Ev 283 66 HMRC Board, London Ev 283 67 Chris Swift Ev 284 68 All Party Parliamentary Save The Pub Group Ev 285 69 Association of British Insurers Ev 289 70 PubCo Licensee Survey by CGA Ev 290 Processed: 07-05-2009 20:10:33 Page Layout: COENEW [SO] PPSysB Job: 420679 Unit: PAG1 Business and Enterprise Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Business and Enterprise Committee on Tuesday 18 November 2008 Members present: Peter LuV, in the Chair Roger Berry Mr Mark Oaten Mr Brian Binley Mr Mike Weir Mr Lindsay Hoyle Mr Anthony Wright Witnesses: Mr Brian Jacobs, Fair Pint Campaign, Mr Clive Davenport, Chairman for Trade and Industry, Federation of Small Businesses and Mr Paul Daly, Publican, Zigfrid and Roadtrip, Shoreditch, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Good morning gentlemen. This is our Q4 Mr Hoyle: It is good to see you again; it soon first evidence session of this inquiry into pubcos. As comes round. always can I begin by asking you to introduce Mr Jacobs: It does not seem like four years ago that yourselves and then I will ask a general question I was here. about the state of trade in the pub industry first before we go into specific questions on pubcos. So can I begin by asking you to introduce yourselves for Q5 Mr Hoyle: That leads me into a very good the record? question. What do you think has got better and Mr Jacobs: I am Brian Jacobs. I am a certified worse for the industry, in particular for tied tenants? accountant and I have 50 years experience in the Mr Jacobs: If you take the whole trade for one trade. minute, what has happened to the whole trade is that Mr Davenport: I am Clive Davenport; I am with the non-smoking introduction and with the chairman of the Trade and Industry Policy Unit for credit crunch trade is down across the board. For the the Federation of Small Businesses. I do not have tied tenants it is even more diYcult because they any experience in the trade. have fixed rents whereas if you are a freeholder you Mr Daly: My name is Paul Daly. I have been a bar do not have that situation. That is the downside; I designer for 15 years in the trade in England. I have cannot really say that there is an upside. owned my own bar, free of tie, for 5.5 years and I opened a tied bar three months ago. Q6 Mr Hoyle: There is nothing positive? Mr Jacobs: Nothing positive at all. One of the big Q2 Chairman: Mr Jacobs, you speak as well for the diYculties of course is that one has to recognise that Fair Pint Campaign. the pubcos have a mountain of debt and they are Mr Jacobs: That is correct. trying to service that mountain of debt. Unfortunately they are trying to service it out of a Q3 Chairman: Do you want to make any general trade which is in fact slowly imploding through the comments about the state of trade in the pub weight of taxation, legislation and the general industry at present, not specifically relating to tie credit crunch. issues and pubcos but more generally about the Mr Davenport: We did a survey of our members who other issues that you face? are involved in the public trade and 99% of them said Mr Daly: Trade generally is down at the moment. I that the situation had not changed since 2004. That would say of the big companies Weatherspoons is is a fairly high proportion, 99%. probably the only one that is up because they do pass Mr Daly: At the moment we have to raise our game on their discounts and their retro discounts to their in the trade. One of the ways of doing that when you customers. are free of tie is that you negotiate deals with your Mr Davenport: The British Beer and Pub brewers. If you do go into a deal with a brewer they Association statistics say that beer sales are down can give you all sorts of discounts and incentives 7.2%, beer sales in pubs are down 8.1%, even which you can pass on and trade on the ground level.