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T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N S T A N D I N G C O M M I T T E E O F T Y N W A L D O N S O C I A L A F F A I R S P O L I C Y R E V I E W B I N G V E A Y N T I N V A A L M Y C H I O N E A A S C R U T A G H E Y P O L A S E E Y N E R C O O I S H Y N K I A R A I L Y T H E A Y PRE–SCHOOL EDUCATION HANSARD Douglas, Tuesday, 9th October 2012 PP112 /12 SAPRC-PSE, No. 3 All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year: Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2012 TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, TUESDAY, 9th OCTOBER 2012 Members Present: Chairman: Mrs B J Cannell MHK Mr D A Callister MLC Hon. S C Rodan SHK Clerk: Mr J D C King Business Transacted Page Procedural...............................................................................................................................................57 Swearing of the Oath by witnesses.......................................................................................................57 Evidence of the Council of Ministers Working group on pre-school education – Hon. P A Gawne MHK, Mr P Karran MHK and Hon. C R Robertshaw MHK ......................57 The Committee adjourned at 12.07 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 12.12 p.m., when Mr J R Houghton was called. Swearing of the Oath.............................................................................................................................78 Evidence Mr J R Houghton MHK, former Member of the Department of Education and Children .................................................78 The Committee adjourned at 12.58 p.m. _________________________________________________________________ 56 SAPRC-PSE TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, TUESDAY, 9th OCTOBER 2012 Standing Committee of Tynwald on Social Affairs Policy Review Pre-School Education The Committee sat in public at 10.30 a.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas [MRS CANNELL in the Chair] Procedural The Chairman (Mrs B J Cannell MHK): Good morning to everybody and welcome to this meeting of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee. I am Mrs Brenda Cannell, Member of the House of Keys and I chair this Committee. The other members of the Committee are Mr David Callister, Member of the Legislative Council, Speaker of the House of Keys, Mr Steve Rodan and 5 our Clerk today is Mr Jonathan King. Could I ask those present please to switch off their mobile telephones. Do not just put them on silent, as they do interfere with our recording equipment. Also for the benefit of Hansard, I shall do my best to ensure that we do not have two people speaking at once. We issued a call for evidence in April this year and we are grateful to all members of the 10 public who have responded. On Thursday 21st June this year, we heard from two former Members of the Department of Education and Children: Mr Butt, Member of the Legislative Council and Mr Hall, Member of the House of Keys. Later this morning, we will be hearing from another former Member of the Department, Mr John Houghton, Member of the House of Keys. On Thursday 28th June this year we heard from two members of the public who have been 15 very active in campaigning against the changes in pre-school education, which we are investigating and they were Mrs Amy Burns and Mrs Lisa Morris. Today we hear from three Members of the House of Keys who have been very closely involved. Together they formed a Council of Ministers’ Working Group on this issue earlier this year. Hon. Members, good morning and welcome. 20 Swearing of the Oath by witnesses 25 The Chairman: Clerk, I will now ask you to swear the witnesses, please. The Clerk administered the Oath to Mr Robertshaw, Mr Gawne and Mr Karran in turn, who each took the Bible in their right hand and swore as follows: 30 ‘I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give to the Committee at this and any further hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.’ The Chairman: Thank you very much. 35 EVIDENCE OF HON. P A GAWNE MHK, MR P KARRAN MHK AND HON. C R ROBERTSHAW MHK 40 Q201. The Chairman: If I could start with Mr Robertshaw, for the record please, if each of you could do, is state your name and describe briefly how you have been involved in the development of pre-school policy since the General Election a year ago. Start off with just a very brief statement from all of you, please, with Mr Robertshaw first. _________________________________________________________________ 57 SAPRC-PSE TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, TUESDAY, 9th OCTOBER 2012 Mr Robertshaw: Just a few moments, just a short statement? 45 The Chairman: Just to describe for the benefit of Hansard, if you state your name and your involvement in the development of pre-school policy. Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Madam Chairman. 50 My name is Chris Robertshaw, MHK and Minister for Social Care. As Minister for Social Care, I have had close involvement in the whole process from its outset, really, and my particular interest at the beginning was, and remains, protection of vulnerable children and subsequently has developed much more broadly, as my Department is now responsible for the registration and inspection service of Early Years Foundation Stage education. 55 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Robertshaw. Mr Gawne. Mr Gawne: Phil Gawne, member of Council of Ministers. I have for at least 16 years now 60 been involved in the voluntary sector in the development of pre-school provision in the Island and in the Council of Ministers, I was asked to join the Working Group to provide some advice and assistance to that Working Group on my practical experience, as I provide. The Chairman: Thank you, Mr Gawne. 65 Mr Karran Mr Karran: Former Shirveishagh Ynsee, Minister for Education, who had to make the decision, allowing for the severe budgetary cuts that we had at the time to face, as far as having to look at new ways, with the proposal by the Government of National Unity to have to look at ways 70 of governing without having loads of money to spend. Q202. The Chairman: Thank you. Can I ask, when were you actually appointed to the Group, each of you, what the precise date was? 75 Mr Gawne: 16th February. The Chairman: Sorry? 80 Mr Gawne: There was a meeting of Council of Ministers on 16th February and that was when the Working Group was established. The Chairman: On 16th February, two thousand and – ? 85 Mr Gawne: Twelve. The Chairman: In 2012? Mr Gawne: Yes. It was actually the day after the Budget briefing, at which time Members 90 obviously had been told about the proposal. Q203. The Chairman: So it was very hastily, it would appear, then, put together, if it was the day after the Budget presentation? 95 Mr Karran: Can I get mine in? The original, the chronological order was on 16th November 2011, that CoMin. There was a discussion with the Ministers about Early Years and then the Council of Ministers decided on the final model of the Working Group that was set up on 16th February. The Working Group met at – 100 The Chairman: Sorry, Mr Karran, 16th February, which year? Mr Karran: In 2012. Then there was a meeting on 28th February. There was a following meeting on 1st March, 6th March, 15th March and then there was a presentation offered to Tynwald Members on 27th March. 105 _________________________________________________________________ 58 SAPRC-PSE TYNWALD STANDING COMMITTEE, TUESDAY, 9th OCTOBER 2012 105 Q204. The Chairman: Thank you for that. That is very useful. Can I ask, when you were established as a Working Group, did you have a chairman? Who chaired the meetings you had? Mr Robertshaw: We did not have a chair as such. We saw our role, both myself and Mr 110 Gawne, if I may momentarily speak on his behalf – he will indicate otherwise, as he sees fit – we saw our role as helping to nuance and develop the policy that was coming from the Department of Education from the standpoint of having the duties I have described to you earlier in my opening statement and with particular regard to protecting the vulnerable, and Mr Gawne from the standpoint of providing a really helpful insight into the private sector element of the service. We 115 believe that we contributed to – Q205. The Chairman: Sorry, Mr Robertshaw, why did you not appoint a chairman from amongst you? 120 Mr Karran: Basically, I had lead responsibility, Chairman, as the fact it was the Department of Education and Children's responsibilities for this issue. This was a working party to discuss the implementation of the Department of Education policy, allowing for the fact of issue having to be – once an issue had been decided on how we were going to try and manage our budget constraints, this was our policy and we had lead responsibility.
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