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Home , Ann Richards, Bush family, Lady Bird Johnson, Laura Bush, Lynne Cheney

Laura : I am here to voice my strong support for the courageous people of – women and men who have suffered for years under the Taliban regime. Each and every one of us has the responsibility to stop this suffering caused by malaria because every life in every land matters and all of us can do something to help.

After studying first ladies and knowing some of them very well like my own mother-in-law or one that I admired very much, a fellow Texan – is that we benefit our country benefits by whatever our first ladies' interests are.

Susan Swain: She is the wife of one president and the daughter-in-law of another. Laura Welch Bush became after a controversial election brought her husband George W. Bush to the . Plus the nine months later came the 9/11 attacks and helped comfort the nation while continuing to pursue interests long important to her including , and women's health.

Good evening and welcome to C-SPAN series, First Ladies Influence and Image. Tonight, we'll tell you the story of the life of our – the wife of our 43rd president, Laura Welch Bush. And here to do that, are two people who know her well through their work.

Ann Gearhart based at is a Laura Bush biographer. Her 2004 book, "The Perfect Wife" tells the story of Laura Bush as she covered the former first lady since 2001. Welcome to the program.

Ann Gearhart: Thank you.

Susan Swain: Mark Updegrove is a presidential historian. The author of several books about the presidency and currently is working on one on the relationship between Presidents Bush 41 and 43. Nice to you see you this evening.

Mark Updegrove: Good evening.

Susan Swain: Ann Gearhart, in your biography, you referred to the role or the job of first lady as – there's a quote, "The most bizarre volunteer job in the world." Whatever thoughts then we heard Laura Bush talk about having her mother-in-law as a role model. Whatever thought she might have had about how she would perform the role of first lady were upended with September 11th.

And we talked to her recently. She talked about that day. I'll let both of you to watch that. And then have you come back and talk about…

Ann Gearhart: OK.

Susan Swain: … how she responded to that and how would we define what her or years as first lady would be. Let's watch.

Laura Bush: I was on my way to Capitol Hill to brief the Senate Education Committee on early childhood education. I had hosted a summit on early childhood education that summer. And I was going to brief that committee on early childhood education when I was getting into the car and my agent – the Secret Service agent leaned over to me and said, "A plane has just flown into the World Trade Center." And we went ahead to the Capitol. We got in the car. We just assumed as we started driving that it was just a some strange, you know, accident.

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But by the time we got to the Capitol, we knew the second plane had hit and we knew what it was.

Male: How did you leave?

Laura Bush: Well, the Secret Service came to get me and said, "It's time to" – they at first they were thinking they would take me back to the White House. And so they sort of had to regroup then figure out where I should go because obviously people at the White House were getting the – the staff at the White House was getting the word to run, and people who, in my office, young women who worked for me were kicking off their high heels and running from the White House. And I know they expected to have glamorous, really interesting jobs at the White House and no one ever thought that they would have to run from the White House like they did.

So, anyway the Secret Service came to get me and Senator Greg and Senator walked me out to the door and then I had drove to the – where I went really was the Secret Service building which have been reinforced and after the terrorist attacks in our embassies. And really I guess after the Oklahoma City bombing that federal buildings, a lot of them have been reinforced and that one had been. So that's where I went to spend the day.

Male: Have you talked to your husband or your girls at that point?

Laura Bush. You know, I can't remember. I wrote this down in the book because I had the logs from the day to remember. But I did talk to George once I got there and the girls and then of course my mother was the one I really wanted to call because I wanted my mother to say everything is going to be all right. And of course, I called to her and said "Everything is going to be all right." And I wanted to say well, certainly is.

Susan Swain: Ann Gearhart, how did she respond? How did she redefine her role after that day?

Ann Gearhart: Well, I have to say, you know, I was with her that day because I was covering her as first lady for the Washington Post. And so, there was some confusion initially as to whether anyone was going to appear or speak, anything, and then the hearing was suspended but then she and Senator Kennedy made a brief statement to the press who were there. And I can remember looking at her, you know, when she – it's always remarkably composing but she twist her fingers at her side, you know, when she's struggling with something that was clearly very dramatic. And I remember thinking, you know, she is wise enough. Her mother-in-law was in this White House. She knows her life has changed in this moment.

And she said in that moment what really she came to say over and over again which is, "You know, I think we just have to make sure we tell our children that we love them and that America is a strong country and we will get through this." It was spontaneous and sincere very much in keeping with her as a librarian and and I think she dedicated herself to that but things were very different immediately.

Susan Swain: In fact, Laura Bush wrote a letter to the children of America the day after 9/11 and here is some of what it said, "I want you to know how much I care about all of you." This is a personal message from the first lady. "Be kind to each other. Take care of each other and show your love for each other."

Mark Updegrove, as a nation, we had not experienced anything of this level of catastrophe since the attack on Pearl Harbor. There wasn't a role model for this. What do Americans want from the White House? From their president and first lady in times of extreme national crisis like this?

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Mark Updegrove: Well we're fortunate in our country. There are many moments when we have in place the right person for the right moment. I think she was the right first lady for that moment because – we forget now but we – I don't – we didn't know what to do after the attacks. We didn't know how to react to them.

I think one of the things she said is – and she mentioned this in the clip that you just showed. She said, "Cover your children. Go out there and reach out to your kids. Your kids want you right now. They need you right now." And I think that that helped us to get through that very trying moment.

You know, Laura Bush is the very picture of equanimity. She is a, she served strong. There's a strength that emanates from her and I think we benefited from having her in the White house during that period.

Susan Swain: Well that Texan connection is where we're going to go next as we learn more about her life. Would they – the both Bushes say that to know them, you must know Midland Texas. So where was Laura Welch born and tell us about her early childhood.

Ann Gearhart: Well Midland Texas is West Texas, it is boom and bust oil country, you know, it is the kind of place that you can see it from miles away, you know, it's kind of shimmers like Oz from 30 miles around the horizon because it's very wide and very flat and very much big sky. And her father was a builder and her mother was a homemaker.

But her mother came from Texas strong female stock, you know, her mother had managed a dairy farm when her grandfather, you know, when her, was away. And I think that it was very much a place of who she was, you know, and gave her a sense of strength about the land and the prairie and doing for your yourself. I can remember when I went there the first time, people always talking about crying, women who were always saying they cried, a friend of had said when she moved from Western Pennsylvania having been educated at Smith and– her husband came back.

And said we're going to move out there to make our fortune in oil. And she said what's it like? And he said well let me say there's a town nearby called No Trees. And then her friend (Jan O'Neil) who wound up introducing her to said she remembers just coming home from the Supermarket one day with two little kids. And there was a tumble weed. The size of a Volkswagen beetle in front of her door and she had no idea how to get into her house.

So it's someway just very harsh and forbidding in that way, you know, and so I think that, you know, you have to have a special appreciation, and I think it made her tough, you know.

Mark Updegrove: In her book, her book is really a love letter to Midland, Texas in a way. It's so much a part of her as you suggested Susan but she talks about the sky and how her mother and she used to just look up at the sky for hours on end. And how important that is to that part of the country. And I think what George W. Bush mentioned to me one time was that kind of country broadens your horizon.

You sort of see people for who they are. There are no trees and the sky is the limit.

Susan Swain: Well Midland, you write, in the 1950s was supportive but it also could be insulating. In what ways was it insulating and how did that shape her?

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Ann Gearhart: Well she's the only child so I think that is also always insulating in a way. It can be aometimes a lonely existence and there weren't a lot of folks who came in from the outside. Or when they did, and they came into the oil business, it took them a little time to get adjusted. I think that people had their own hide-bound) ways of being and their own divides as to where you were in the social stratosphere whether you're a wild catter.

You know, they used to say about (Odessa) that, you know, you raised hell in Odessa and that you raised your kids in Midland so there was a certain way of behaving and a propriety for that and you went to the Methodist Church, you went to the Episcopal Church, you know, in some of the ways of a small town America everywhere. But I think people have to be dependent on each other and had to because it could be kind of harsh.

Susan Swain: Midland today is, has a large Hispanic population as much of Texas does. What was it like in terms of minorities when Laura Welch was growing up?

Ann Gearhart: Well I can't really speak exactly as to how it was then. I mean there were three different high schools and when they all got together for a reunion, when the Bushes were in the White House. So you know, nobody even really remembered about the black high school and invite so many kids from that. I don't think that it was a matter of overt separation as much as within a certain class of people or there was almost obliviousness.

And I knew when I went, even when I went back there to do reporting, let's say, I'd say I was going across town to do an interview and they'd say, so what are you going over that part of town for, you know. So I think that in many ways people kept to their own lanes as it were. And that had so in shaping, I know that when she went off to SMU, you know, she had said and some of her friends had said they necessarily didn't have a remembrance of, Martin Luther King and some of the race riots that were going on around the rest of the world.

I think it, you know, there were the sock hops and there was the sodas at the drive in and I think in that way it was isolating.

Susan Swain: I want to put their parents' names on the record because we didn't do that, her father was Harold Bruce Welch 1912 died in 1995 and her mother Jenna Louise Hawkins Welch was born in 1999 and is still very much alive. Right after the age of turning 17, Laura Welch was in a car crash in Midland Texas and it resulted in the death of a very close friend of hers. She spoke about that, she wrote about it in her book and she spoke about that in a recent interview. Let's listen.

Male: Mrs. Bush, you write in "spoken from the heart" about a difficult period, November, 1963 in a loss of faith. Your faith. Why?

Laura Bush: Well, I was in a car wreck that I wrote about extensively in my book. And the whole time I was in the hospital, not injured really. I mean, I had a cut on my leg. and a broken ankle. I was praying that the other person in the car would be OK. And the other person in the car was one of my best friends, which I didn't know. I didn't really recognize that at the site of the crash. His father came up, his father had been – they lived with just past, where the, the corner where the car wreck was.

And I recognized his father but I didn't understand that that was Mike that was there. And I think because I prayed over and over and over for him to be OK. And then we wasn't, you know, I thought, well that nobody listened, God was not listening. My prayer wasn't answered. And so I went through really a very long time of not believing and not believing that prayers could be answered.

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And it took me a long time really and a lot growing up to come back to faith.

Susan Swain: The car wreck shaped her in what way?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think what she has said about it and what she mentioned to me about it was that we do grow up and when you are young and you expect that the world is going to be a certain way. And she would have attained that maturity anyway but it came to her pretty quickly. I think that she is an empathetic person by nature. And I think it probably made her less judgmental about other people, in a way that we don't often see in Washington. I think she is more given to thinking people may have interior backgrounds and things that shaped them that we don't know.

So I think that that has certainly made her the kind of person I think she worried more about her own daughters. I think she worried about her husband because she had seen at a very early age how an instant and a miscalculation can change everything.

Susan Swain: Mark Updegrove, on that clip she talks about her faith, would you spend a little time talking about faith and George and Laura Bush?

Mark Updegrove: Sure let me just mention though, one that she said in an interview I did with her was that she sort of grew up out of that experience and there were things that happen in your life that you can't change and you have to find a way to move on. And I think that that experience, while very formative for a young girl in Midland, Texas was very helpful to her in the days after 9 11. He had seen the role that fate can play in this world.

Susan Swain: That fate can play.

Mark Updegrove: That fate can play. And realized that you have to move on, you have to be strong. You have to move on. And so I think it was, it's very helpful I think, and I think faith plays a great role in both of their lives and George W. Bush became a born again Christian when he was in Midland I think it changed his life in a lot of ways.

She is less I think vocal about her religious faith than he is. He's a little bit more low-key about it, but I think it's important to both of their lives.

Susan Swain: She is the second first lady to have a post graduate degree. Can you tell us what's important to know about her education and her early jobs?

Ann Gearhart: I think that people frequently overlook that, you know, because they make the mistake of thinking that she is a conventional women which she is not at all. She is quite interior and has a certain modesty if that word really means much anymore. So that she didn't ever really boast about it a lot. But she certainly was very self-directed and she came back from SMU and teaching and said she wanted to go on to the University of Texas get a Library Science degree.

And she said her father said, "now I'll never get her a husband." You know, to go on and her master's degree when many people thought if you went to college at all, it was for an MRS degree and then she very purposefully moved into a part of Austin which is still the barrio on the East side and taught at an almost entirely Spanish-speaking school. And in a very dedicated fashion, deliberately chose this school where she thought she could have impact helping kids learn to read and fell as if they were exposed to other kinds of parts of life they weren't getting.

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And, you know, I think that's a part that's a part that's really important and that she maintains to this day.

Susan Swain: I want to tell you how you can be involved in the program. There are three ways you can do it. We have a robust conversation going on Facebook. If you go to see CSPAN Facebook page you'll see the picture of Laura Bush and join the conversation there. You can also Tweet us using the Twitter handle at first ladies, the address at first ladies and we'll mix as may Tweets as we can. And you can call us. Use the old-fashioned telephone and be part of the conversation. We'd like to hear your voice. There are two phone lines. If you leave in the Eastern and .

The number is 2025-85-3880, if you live in the mountain Pacific Time zones or farther west, 2058- 53-881 and we'll get your calls adjust a little bit. A question from Twitter, someone named muppetsfan1968 asked I have a question about Laura Bush was she always a Republican?

Mark Updegrove: Well let me just start off by saying I'm not a fan of the Muppets but I will answer the question.

Ann Gearhard: They have their movie coming out.

Mark Updegrove: Everyone is a fan of the Muppets. No I think she supported Eugene McCarthy. I think she was a card carrying Democrat for many years. And I think she married into a Republican family and loves her husband, has great faith in him in his judgment and I think supported his platform. But no she is not a natural Republican.

Susan Swain: Before we leave the Midland days one set of relationships that has carried her through her entire life a group girlfriends that she made in Midland how important are they to her, what do they provide for her and she for them?

Ann Gearhart: I think both she and the President have a very strong set of friends who have been their friends forever. And that has been a really sustaining aspect for them. They come to Washington, it's best to import your own friends. They have been with you at the beginning and, you know where they stand and, you know that they trust you and you have their loyalty.

And she particularly has always treasured going off with them and did that even when she was in the White House once a year, they would go have these trips where they would go rafting in the wild and they would kind of care for each other and …

Susan Swain: You noted they are mostly progressive Democrats, this group of girlfriends, what clue should they give us about her own politics?

Ann Gearhart: Well, you know, it's interesting I think that she as Mark said I think that she loves her husband. And she's very loyal to her husband and one of the things that I have come to admire and appreciate about Laura Bush that she has navigated this bizarre volunteer job in the aftermath, is to find areas of commonality with people with whom she might find differences.

So she would campaign for Republicans for instance but I saw her once change a speech in, you know, script because the person who she was campaigning for, she was not going to attack a Texas Democrat this person was running against in that specific way.

I think that she has things that are very interesting to her with her friends. You know, they care about literature, care about the book festival, she's very much of an avid conservationist and

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environmentalist. And so she finds those ways. She's pretty active in women's rights and taking those things on.

Mark Updegrove: I think that that set of friends you referenced from Midland Texas really kept them grounded too and I think that there's a people who knew them when. And I think that gave them great comfort when they were in the White House and both of the Bushes talk about the story of bringing their friends in. And President Bush having his pals in the . And one of his friends looks in and says gosh Bush can you believe it? I'm in the Oval Office.

They looked at George, like and you're in the Oval Office, you know, and they sort of did – Bush I think are both very self-deprecating and that and having that circle of friends around again gave him great comfort during the stresses of the White House.

Susan Swain: Laura Welch and George Bush were both young persons in Midland Texas, did they ever meet as children?

Ann Gearhart: They did not actually. They attended the same schools but she says that she doesn't recall him and they didn't, then I think she knew who he was after a time. He was a roustabout, you know, from a good family and a well-known family certainly in Midland and at one point, they lived in the same building at the Chateau Dijon in . But I think she thought he was a bit carousing so he's had other pursuits and then her friends from Midland fixed them up and they were both, she was 30 and he I guess was about the same age.

Mark Updegrove: Yes.

Ann Gearhart: He was ready to settle down and they got engaged and married very quickly, you know in three months.

Susan Swain: That's one thing that I wanted to ask you about because this is a portrait you both have painted of a woman, a librarian who is very orderly. A very measured and she did something rather impetuous, marrying after four months of meeting someone. How does she describe that very brief courtship in the decision to marry so quickly after she met George W. Bush?

Mark Updegrove: OK, she's had a lot of suitors in her life but none of them quite clicked in and in Texas at the time, she talks about her feeling like kind of an old maid. And, you know, by Texas standards she probably was and then here comes this guy George Bush who was so different from her in so many respects and yet so complementary. They really clicked, and so it was somewhat uncharacteristic that she would be sort of swept up in this romance.

One thing that she talks about is that they went out on the campaign trail right after they got married. George Bush campaigned unsuccessfully for a seat in congress in West Texas. And they got to know each other so well on the campaign trail. They'd have these endless hours of driving around the plains of West Texas talking about their lives and I think that really helped their marriage begin on the right footing.

Susan Swain: (Janice Harold) wants to know more, what attracted Laura to George, she asks on Twitter, they seemed so different in their younger years.

Ann Gearhart: Well she always said that he made her laugh, you know, and she said she wanted somebody who would make her laugh. I mean again, she had grown up and in some ways sort of only lonely child. She didn't have a brother or sister. Her mother have had some miscarriages. I think she

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really longed to have a sibling and she really liked his boisterous kind of cut-up nature. And he wanted someone who was steady, you know, Laura steady as she goes, would settle him down and I think that I see that in them still and you can never know what's in someone else's marriage. But I was struck when I saw them recently on . He said something and she sort of tossed her head back and kind of giggled and laughed and I think they still have that bond that he is funny.

Mark Updegrove: One of the great moments I think for her during her first, you know, in her tenure as first lady is when she was at the White House for the Correspondents Dinner, you know, I think it was 2005 and she took the podium in place of her husband and talked about the fact that he goes to bed at 9:00 and she stays up to watch and says "I am a Desperate Housewife." You know, they just have this great rapport and again they can sort of read each other and it's very sweet.

Susan Swain: (Jane) is watching us in Killeen, Texas and you're on the air, hi (Jane).

(Jane): Hi good evening, well is it true that Laura's interest in Afghanistan actually began in the sixth grade?

Ann Gearhart: I've never heard that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

(Jane): It's in her book I can't give you the page number but she had to write a report on a country and she and her father Mr. Welch went to the globe and spun the globe and her finger landed on Afghanistan. And she wrote that in her own book.

Mark Updegrove: I think she talked about how exotic it felt, you know, to write about Afghanistan at that time.

Susan Swain: I do think that when she – I traveled with her to Europe and she toured the museum in Paris Guimet [?] I'm probably not pronouncing that precisely right, where there were a lot of the antiquities from that country and some of the artifacts that had been saved, pieces of the Buddhas that had been destroyed by the Taliban. I think she is very taken by this idea that you could have this robust civilization.

And then it could be blown to bits in a matter of days and really was quite compelled by that, I mean it certainly might have been in her roots from early on too but, she thought that was a cause worth ...

Mark Updegrove: Right.

Ann Gearhart: ... to be engaged in.

Susan Swain: So he ran for Congress right after they got married. When she married him, did she know she was going to be marrying a politician?

Ann Gearhart: Well not exactly, I mean he promised her she'd never have to give a speech. And he broke that nearly immediately. So I think she knew he was from a very political family and she described herself as not being very political. You know, I always think when people use that, it means that they find politics distasteful, usually I find if people say I'm not very political. It means, they just don't like it. It seems like it's nasty and full of one-upsmanship and she really didn't have much appetite for that.

So now I don't think she did but…

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Susan Swain: (Gary Robinson) wants to know, was Laura interested in politics or thrust into it because of her relationship with George W.?

Mark Updegrove: I think thrust very quickly and again in a whirlwind fashion because the sooner had they married and they have to campaign through West Texas.

Susan Swain: And with that campaign being unsuccessful what's life like for them after that?

Mark Updegrove: Well I think he sort of had to figure out what he wanted to do and he went into the oil business in Midland and that's where, I think they were there for the first 10 years of their marriage. It's where their daughters were born and where they raised them in their toddler and childhood years. So it was – it was I think it was a pretty middle class existence for a long time until he decided to do other things later in his life.

Susan Swain: Was it middle class by choice or by necessity? I mean they came from very – he – he came from a very wealthy family and he was in the oil business. Did they choose to live more modestly?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think they did both have a certain modesty about them in that way that continues today. I mean they don't have the world's hugest most well-appointed house in , you know, it's certainly nice. I think he felt a strong need to make it on his own I mean I would defer to you. Because you are working on this book about the relationship between them but as you find with a lot of sons, you didn't want to feel as if he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, you know, or that expression he's thought he, you know he's a single and ...

Mark Updegrove: Right, he's ...

Ann Gearhart: Yes.

Mark Updegrove: Was born out there basically …

Ann Gearhart: Yes.

Mark Updegrove: …-– triple?

Ann Gearhart: Yes exactly.

Mark Updegrove: Right

Ann Gearhart: Exactly.

Mark Updegrove: I think that the other thing is that Midland is both a boom town which it is right now, and a bust town, depending on the oil industry and when he was coming up in the oil industry, it was really in bust mode. That was not a very prosperous business to be in at that time. So he struggled in that business before finding great success as the owner of the .

Ann Gearhart: And so he always had his father's friends who were there to bail them out. So certainly they were not uncomfortable by any stretch of the imagination.

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Susan Swain: But twins Barbara and Jenna were born on November 25th 1981. But you write in your book and Laura Bush and hers that they had considered adoption before the babies were born. What was parenthood for them and can you talk about how their children were raised?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think that she very much wanted to have children. She always knew she wanted to have children and she always imagined herself as having a family. And I think she – they described that both as being a very idyllic time. She really loved reading to these darling little girls and raising them and being very immersed in caring for them. I think that, you know, you – your children find a way to challenge your preconceptions of what it's going to be like. And they had a set of twins, one who probably has her daddy's personality a bit more.

And one who has her mother's. I think they delighted in that and think the years that they spent in Austin where they were all together and what is in some ways a very close town and a very easy town to be in. They describe as being idyllic years too.

Susan Swain: Lucy is watching us in Waupaca, Wisconsin. Hi Lucy.

Lucy: Hi good evening. Thank you, I'm enjoying this. My question is when you're talking about Laura's lack of faith after the accident, was there something that had happened that caused her to – to – to find God back in her life or – or was it an influence of somebody like George had Billy Graham. I was just a little curious while she said that she later came back. I wonder if there was something that drove her back to believing in God.

Susan Swain: Thank you.

Mark Updegrove: I don't know that there was a catalyst then. Do you know about anything that would have been catalytic in her life that would have led her to God?

Ann Gearhart: No, I agree with you. I think that the kind of modesty that she projects and the privacy that she shepherds means that she's not really given in the same way that her husband is to talking and witnessing her faith in a public fashion. You know, she was raised a Methodist, certainly always attended church it was part of community life. To the comfort of that, I think certainly she has talked about the comfort of scripture in a way that is part of her interest in literature. I remember her picking the bible verse out after September 11th, you know, she was looking for words to give her meaning…

Mark Updegrove: Right.

Ann Gearhart: …and give her strength. So I don't know if there is a catalyst, I think it's probably more complicated on that. I won't presume to speak for her in that way as to how she found her footing again.

Susan Swain: And that caller mentioned Billy Graham and he had a role to play in George W. Bush embracing faith and stopping drinking alcohol. You mentioned that when the two Bushes, or Mrs. Bush and George Bush met each other that he was a bit of a carouser. And he made that decision to give up alcohol and I'm wondering if we know whether or not Laura Bush had a role on that decision or whether that was a personal one for him.

Mark Updegrove: Well she said to him, famously, "It's either me or Jim Beam." I think she realized that he was drinking too much. I think he realized that at a certain point and I think that there was a conversation that George W. bush had with Billy Graham in Kennebunkport. Billy Graham was a

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guest of his father's at their compound walkers point in Kennebunkport . And I think that as he began talking to Billy Graham again I think embracing God in a way that he hadn't before in his life.

And that was I think I'm not sure, the threshold of middle age, you turn 40 when he gave up drinking and when he took God into his – his heart and I think Mrs. Laura Bush was extremely supportive of all the decisions that her husband made including I know his embracing Christianity in the way he did.

Susan Swain: He made the decision that he wanted to make a bid for the governor's mansion in Texas. Laura Bush right was concerned because of the twins being very young at that point. Ultimately, she agreed to support him on this. Allegheny Tableau wants to know what was Laura's experience like as First Lady of Texas? Seems like she'd be embraced easily by the people there, was she?

Ann Gearhart: I think she was embraced pretty easily and I think in many ways is very low key position. She would talk about how she like ducking out the backdoor and going around the corner to the drug store or going to post office to buy postage stamp. It's kind of hard to imagine with everything that's happened after September 11th that so many could live like that today. I think she really enjoyed it. I think she had a rich life. She started the Texas book festival, she very quietly once again without calling and much attention to herself I think had influence on him with his education initiatives.

Not in the sort of you will do this way, but as is the case with lots of married people, he learned about what role early childhood education have about environmental print, early literacy. And she talked about the importance of that. He adopted that. I think that they very much enjoyed that life in those years. And for the girls it was a little easier for them there too. I mean, they could be part of a set of well-connected upper middle class kids in Austin. Kind of knew each other and nobody really looked at them too harshly.

Susan Swain: As the son of a president, he certainly understood what life would be like in the house, what the rigors of a campaign would be like. When he decided that he would like to throw his hat into the ring for the presidential election, how supportive was Laura Bush at that point?

Mark Updegrove: Well, I think she was – she was supportive of his – his intentions. There's no question about. And I think she was confident he'd win. When he had his – his mind set on the – the state house in Texas, when everyone thought he was going to lose to , she knew he was going to win. He knew that he was sort of tenacious in his – in his drive for things. And I think she had that same faith when he tossed his hat in the ring in 2000.

Susan Swain: For a woman who was promised she'd never have to make a speech, in 2000, she was asked to address the national audience at the republican convention. I'm going to show you a clip from that one. Many people in the public got to hear her voice for the first time. Let's watch.

Laura Bush: I'm so thrilled and I'm honored to be here. And I'll have to say, I'm just a little bit overwhelmed. To help open the convention that will nominate my husband for president of the .

The President is our most visible symbol of our country of its heart, its values, and its leadership in the world. And when Americans vote this November they will be looking for someone to uphold that honor and that trust.

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You can see it in the pictures. The pictures are one of the most compelling stories of this campaign. We first saw them on our very first campaign trip. There are the pictures of America's future. Moms, and dads, and grandparents bring them to parades and picnics. They hold out pictures of their children and they say to George, "I'm counting on you. I want my son or daughter to respect the President of the United States of America."

Susan Swain: Ann Gearhart, that comment about respect came on the heels of the Clinton impeachment and it would unfold to be a very contentious campaign in 2000 of course with the ultimate recount in Florida, et cetera. Can you talk about their transition of – the Clinton's transition into the Bushes and all of that acrimony politically? And how the Bushes established themselves in the White House after that election?

Ann Gearhart: Well, it had a very important advantage. They had been there before in a way because George Bush's father was the President of United States. They'd spent plenty of time there I think that they had some guidance as to what that felt like, and what that looked like, what the contours of that are like. Running for president is a marathon and if you get there or you don't, you're in for a surprise either way, that's a very steep learning curve.

And I think they had some exposure to that. So that transition was somewhat eased for them by that. It was a famously bitter recount, Laura Bush spent most of the time in Austin as did George Bush. And she talked about how, you know, she tried to keep herself busy, there was just this time to wait and not to – you couldn't really get too much started very much because you couldn't really be sure of what's going to happen.

And once they –were sworn in, she spent many months not being in Washington, you know, she had two daughters who were going up to college. So, she want to make sure she got them settled. She saw that as her first responsibility. And I think that she was only beginning to figure out what she was going to do and how she's going to focus her attention when September 11 came along.

Susan Swain: So, same with that theme Mark Updegrove there, here again historic proportions. We have the second impeachment in history just before the election. We have a Supreme Court making a decision and the outcome of the election – how difficult is it for a Presidency to establish itself in the wake of all of this turmoil.

Mark Updegrove: Well, I think that – and let's go back to what Anne said– I think they had transitioned into white house life relatively easily. And it's interesting right before 9/11 occurred. Laura Bush started hitting her stride as first lady. She just had a first state dinner, I think for the President in Mexico. She had just done the first using the Texas book festival as a template. She was really starting to get to hit her groove as – in that role.

And then, 9/11 occurred. And it's interesting, she talked about a friend of hers who had called her and said, you know, when you first took on this role, I thought, oh man I don't envy her at all, but now I envy you because you have a role to play. A very important role to play as our nation picks itself back up in the wake of this strategy. And she did an admirable job of it.

Susan Swain: (Michael) is watching us here in Washington DC. Hi (Michael) you're on.

(Michael): Hi. I have two questions. Is Laura Bush is conservative in her politics, you know, like gay marriage, she recently, you know, spoke out with gay marriage as her husband is. And does she still smoke cigarettes like, she as a kid, that [like Jack Kennedy?] she was a closet smoker.

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Susan Swain: Thanks very much. She's began smoking as a teenager in Midland, Texas. So, she still smoke today, do we know?

Ann Gearhart: We don't really know that. I mean I think that there have been some people who have said they have seen her do that once in a while, she'll sneak a cigarette once in a while, but she has said that she give that up because she knew it wasn't good for her because her daughters didn't like that. And knew that it wasn't healthy.

A lot of politics, you know, I think that she like many like her mother-in-law before her, Barbara Bush who was married to a congressman from Houston who championed you know, funding for 40 years ago, like those women, they sometimes will give that sense that they are more liberal than their husbands and that can work well for the party. There's not necessarily evidence that that is true.

So I don't know that we can really answer that. I think that in terms of her personal view of the world, I would say that she is not a judgmental and harsh person. But I think that she also certainly has never felt that it was her role to crusade on behalf of causes such as reproductive rights or benefits for same sex couples. I think she has tried to have her impact in areas which we might consider safe subjects that everyone can get behind. But what she would feel and I would argue correctly can have impact, you know, her foundation gives a million dollars away to libraries every year which are woefully inadequately funded across the country.

They book festival remains and is a persistent legacy of hers, 200,000 people went to it last year. And I think that she admired Lady Bird Johnson because all these years later, after what was considered a sort of flimsy initiatives to put wild flowers on the nation's highways, they bloom year after year and bring a sense of beauty. So, I think she's trying to make her impact were she could and let her deeds speak for herself rather than her spouse in political positions which I think that's fine.

Mark Updegrove: I don't think she's not that ideologue. I think that's such – right, I think what she saw with Lady Bird Johnson is, alluded to this – a first lady could take on a cause – they had their own bully pulpit in a sense. I could take on a cause and make a real difference without, you know, world events sort of coming across their desk and their having to react. And then 9/11 occurred and instead of getting deeply involved in education or literacy, as she would have liked, she had to do other things.

Susan Swain: You both referenced the National Book Festival which she emulated on her model that she built in Texas. And she was working on it in just days before the 9/11 attacks. We have a clip next from September 8, 2001 when First Lady Laura Bush was on the in Washington. She's actually in the as talking about the first annual National Book Festival. Let's watch.

Laura Bush: One thing that I like about both this festival, the National Book Festival and the Texas Book Festival is that they're right here in the capital. We're right now in the steps of the Library of Congress with the United States Capitol behind us. And I love the whole idea and the symbolism of books and the ideas in books with our national government and our democracy because the ideas in books are really what are so important to our democracy.

Susan Swain: So both of you are authors and the publishing industry generally has been thought be a little bit left of center over the years. Was there any skepticism on the part of book writers or publishers about a conservative first lady getting involved in a National Book Festival? And if so, how did they she mitigate it?

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Mark Updegrove: I think the Texas Book Festival was enormously successful and she gathered writers as First Lady of Texas who didn't necessarily share the politics of her husband and they had a wonderful experience. And I think that might have helped. But I think books are an easy cause to get behind whether you're liberal or conservative. And so that was an easy rallying point for all.

Ann Gearhart: Well, she did have an issue in the White House then after the war began in which she had been having a series of symposiums while on the libraries, and history of libraries and the role they have played. And one that she was going to do in poetry and she had invited a number of American poets, some of who were very much left of center and very much opposed to the war and, you know, quite outspoken on that subject.

And spoke out about it, said they wouldn't come, if they did, they would protest. And in the end the hue and cry got loud enough that she cancelled it in a face of that. So, it was not with that controversy, she certainly wasn't universally accepted. And there have been a number of librarians overtime I think who have questioned whether she has thrown her might into the fights over educational text and the idea of whether we teach evolution or whether, you know, we teach sex education and emphasize abstinence. So I mean those kinds of I would say intellectual arguments have sometimes sort of ensnared her despite her efforts to stay away from that.

Susan Swain: Well on that note Pablo Miguel Martinez s on Facebook references that and so then Mrs. Bush invited and then disinvited posts to the White House, how has Mrs. Bush every commented directly on that debacle as this viewer calls it who's – has she ever spoken out about the bottom of it?

Mark Updegrove: Not that I'm aware of.

Susan Swain: No?

Ann Gearhart: No, I don't think that – not that I'm aware of. I think that she has a tendency to say that it is unfortunate that people can't come together and have a civilized discussion that once again you might be able to find some common ground if you can get beyond that rhetoric but I think that she's spoken about it directly.

Susan Swain: (Martha) is watching us Alexandria, in the Washington suburbs. Hi (Martha) you're on.

(Martha): Hey. Thank you so much for taking my call. You know, it's interesting that between Laura Bush and last week, Hilary Clinton, they're two women of my generation. One is chosen one path. One is chosen another path.

Both women I admire very much. The one success that they have had is that they have both raised strong, successful young women. Can you comment on the difference between the two? And why? Thank you.

Susan Swain: Thanks very much.

Ann Gearhart: I guess, on the difference between the two and why they have both managed to raise strong women or.

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Susan Swain: That's what she's implying – yes very different women and yet their children are both strong.

Ann Gearhart: Well I guess what I would say and I guess I believe this myself I would like to think as a strong woman who I hope has raised strong and successful daughters. I think there should be room in America for all kinds of women to have all kinds of personalities and temperaments and paths. And to devote our attention in whatever ways we want to whether we set aside our own careers for a time, whether we picked them back up again, whether we stitch our lives together through those decades, make it work within our own families.

We each have our own ways we can pursue that, yet we can all reach the same kinds of levels of what we would feel as satisfaction and success in raising our children. Yes, I think they are very different women. I think they also are both women however who is first ladies and I would say a lot of these first ladies.

We'll tell you that they saw their time in the office as being primarily to be a support to their husband. And I think there are people that rubs the wrong way, feels like it's an anti-feminist position. You should be able to work, you should be able to certainly pursue your own interests.

Maybe you can disagree with your husband. But in that particular hothouse of being in the White House and the stresses on any couple who is in that job. If you don't have a strong partnership, that president is not going to be as successful as he can be, will be or to put in another way or even less successful than he might have been.

Mark Updegrove: Yes.

Ann Gearhart: And I think certainly George Bush has spoken about that directly and every one of them has spoken about that.

I think it's a partnership that is an integral one to the health of the American democracy.

Susan Swain: In November of 2001, just shortly after the attacks, Laura Bush made a bit of first lady history by becoming the first First Lady to deliver the President's weekly radio address which is a custom and many of you probably listen to them even today with President Obama. Here's her reflections on that experience. And you'll also hear a little bit of that address that she gave.

Male: Laura Bush, did it surprise you at first when you first became First Lady at the platform ...

Laura Bush: Yes.

Male: ... that you were given in the voice you had?

Laura Bush: I didn't real – I knew it. I mean I knew that of course, I knew it intellectually because I'd seen my mother-in-law at the platform that she had to talk about literacy which was her particular interest. I'd seen Lady Bird Johnson and how she influenced me even here at home in Texas because of her interest in native plants but I didn't really know it until I made that President's radio address, Presidential radio address in that fall of 2001 after the terrorist attack to talk about what other way women and children were treated by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Good morning, I'm Laura Bush. And I'm delivering this week's radio address to kick off a worldwide effort to focus on the brutality against women and children by the Al Qaeda terrorist network and the

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regime it supports in Afghanistan, the Taliban. That regime is now in retreat across much of the country. And the people of Afghanistan especially women are rejoicing. Afghan women know through hard experience what the rest of the world is discovering. The brutal oppression of women is a central goal of the terrorists. Not only because our hearts break for the women and children in Afghanistan but also because in Afghanistan, we see the world the terrorists would like to impose on the rest of us. All of us have an obligation to speak out. We may come from different backgrounds and faiths but parents, the world over love their children. We respect our mothers, our sisters and daughters. Fighting brutality against women and children is not the expression of a specific culture. It's the acceptance of our common humanity.

And that's the first time I really realized that people heard me. And that what I said people listened to. And so then I knew from then on although I think you don't ever really know intellectually until maybe after you leave and see what the platform is.

Susan Swain: Mark Updegrove that experience helped Laura Bush find her voice as First Lady?

Mark Updegrove: Yes she did find her voice in that issue and she talks about going to Austin to visit her daughter at the University of Texas. Jenna was attending college there at that time. And going to, with Jenna to a department store and there were a couple of Middle Eastern women behind the counter who thanked her for making that speech and raising awareness about the brutal treatment of women under the Taliban in Afghanistan. And she realized at that moment what a profound difference that she could make. You know, I guess when you're in a studio making radio address, you don't see the people that it affects but it was at that moment that told her that she was making a difference.

Susan Swain: And how did she use that voice when she found it?

Ann Gearhart: Well, you know, I think because she's always been torn because she is one of the few people I have ever encountered in Washington who refuses to take credit to what she has accomplished. I mean this is the city where people are always taking credit for things that they had nothing to do anything with. And for instance, she was instrumental in spurring a program whereby Liz Claiborne and the Singer sewing machine company donated services and goods to so that they could become self-sufficient. You know, thinking about our previous caller, one of the things that she and certainly share as very different women is this fervent belief that societies can't be successful if they don't take advantage of half of their population and those half of their populations repressed in poverty. So she was very interested in doing that although I can remember pressing her repeatedly to say well, you know, how does Secretary Chao got involved, you know, how did Liz Claiborne get involved and finally she mumbled out, you know, I just talked to secretary Chao but I think finding a voice for her – she is in – her bully pulpit is results based I guess I would say and she has liked to use it in a way that she thinks will get results people will embrace. She continues to do that today. She really travels quite a bit I've noticed and speaks on behalf of a lot of organizations who are raising money for things she believes in. Like a couple of times a month, from what I can see.

Susan Swain: (Connie) is watching us in East Lansing, Michigan, hi (Connie).

(Connie): Hi, how are you?

Susan Swain: Great, what's your question for us?

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(Connie): Hillary Clinton and Laura Bush have either a project or foundation that they both worked on or their staffs both worked on? And I'm wondering if you could explain or talk about that a little bit, I'm sorry we don't hear more about it.

Susan Swain: OK, both first ladies have foundations. Can you talk about how this works even in the world of campaign giving in finance and how one can be in public life and accept contributions like this and what it does politically?

Mark Updegrove: Well, and just alluded to the fact that Laura Bush continuous to work on the issues that were an importance to her as first lady through the Bush Institute. So that the Bush Center is a conglomeration of the number of different things including the Bush Foundation which is a benefactor to all things Bush including the Bush Library and the Bush Institute. And so the Bushes continue to further the causes that they began to take initiative toward in the White House during the ...

Susan Swain: But they do that with the help of donors?

Mark Updegrove: With the help of donors, yes and they said the Bush Institute raises money that in turn goes into the Bush institute. And the projects relating it to the – the Bush Library as well.

Susan Swain: Now the case of Laura Bush, her husband isn't going to be running for president again and she certainly was going to be running for president herself. So in some ways, while there could be influence that those donors might gain, if there were another Bush for instance to run for president, yes I think that's possible. But in some ways I guess I think that they're sort of protected at this point from that, that.

Mark Updegrove: I think that's right.

Susan Swain: However in the case of Mrs. Clinton and the Clinton Global Initiative. I think that that remains an area that the public rightfully wants the watchfulness on and I think that those of us in continue to try to track because if she were to run again, then those people who have paid her money for speeches or have donated to her various causes have a relationship with her that we would want to examine.

Ann Gearhart: Everyone watching this program knows about the many challenges this country faced during the eight years of the Bush administration. It was a difficult time for the country not only the 9/11 attacks. But after that the decision to pursue the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, also during that time period, there was Hurricane Katrina. And that ultimately the 2008 financial crisis and on the domestic policy side of the big initiative was No Child Left Behind the major education administration – the administration's major education initiative.

Laura Bush continued to pursue her own interests even as the country responded to the various Bush administration policies. How challenging is it – this is a – we've seen this throughout the series about First Ladies standing beside their husbands as the public opinion of their work changes. How challenging is that for a spouse to see the increased criticism that the person that you're married to is receiving in the public eye?

Mark Updegrove: I think it's very difficult for them to see the scrutiny exacted at their husbands. You know, I think because they know the man. They know the real person and very often, we can get caught up in the heat of the moment when we scrutinize our presidents. And they have always because caricatures in a way. And so for Laura Bush who is so deeply in love with her husband to see

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the way he was treated must have hurt deeply. She continued to stand by him, I think she traveled far more in his second term, than she did in the first term and she was, because again, she had found a voice on so many issues particularly relating to women, and try to further that cause by hitting the road and trying to be – trying to better explain his policies to our nation and to the world.

Susan Swain: In 2004, the reelection bid Laura Bush was on the road extensively during the campaign year and this next clip shows you one of the challenges of being a first lady when you're trying to pursue your own agenda and that pesky press corps continues to ask questions, let's watch.

Laura Bush: I'm very proud of the and I'm proud of the way schools and states all across the country are rallying to meet the goals of that act, and also they're – they're the same goals. We all have the same goals. And that's to make sure every child has a great education. And there's a very large achievement gap between poor school districts, title-1 schools and students in poor schools and students in more affluent schools. And that's what we have to address it's not fair in our country, to have that much of an achievement gap.

Female: And how has been, in the last couple of weeks for you, watching your husband be criticized so widespread around the world for the behavior of the American military.

Laura Bush: No, I'm sorry about that but I know that those prison photos don't reflect the vast majority of our military men and women. And they certainly don't reflect the values of the people of the United States of America and I know that. And it's terrible. But the – the good news in our country is those people will be prosecuted. There will be transparency in what happens. And you know, that's one of the benefits of living in a free country. So but I'm sorry about those photographs and I'm sorry about what happened to the Iraqi prisoners because it doesn't reflect our country.

Susan Swain: Ann Gearhart, what are you seeing there?

Ann Gearhart: What I was really thinking about when I watched that is I think one of the things we had never really talked much about with first ladies is their qualities of leadership. You know, we talked about leadership in terms of chief executives. And people who we elected to put in charge, think of leadership as also being really specific and targeted and focused about how much time you have and what you can accomplish with that time you have.

And so in the case of Laura Bush, particularly in that second term when she realizes that it's her last chance to have an impact, there are many, many things that she may be concerned about that she may discuss privately with her husband, she's certainly not going to relate to the rest of us. She may have issues that she disagrees with him on. But the idea of trying to remain focused on the areas where she would like to have impact and knowing that she can fritter her time away if she doesn't remain what we would call on message but which also can be highly specific and focused is something that we see her do there.

And I think that with the, you know, 10 years passed, I would leave it to viewers to decide if they think they see sincerity there or not, whether she does in fact, say, I'm very sorry about that or whether she seems as if she is just trying to take a pass on it. What we do know now is that we have had other horrible incidents with our military but for the most part, for all of the people who are in service, it is in fact an anomaly, and you heard her address that there.

Susan Swain: She was speaking at a school about education initiatives, No Child Left Behind, so we mentioned was a major one of the Bush Administration, Allegheny Tableau wants to know what was

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Laura's role in No Child Left Behind. As a teacher did she support the direction that the President's reform policies were taking?

Mark Updegrove: Well she certainly did publicly I mean she – I think she was making a speech about education there. And I, and supporting this policy, they talked about the, like President Bush campaigned talking about the soft bigotry of low expectations. And they really wanted to, to narrow that gap, the achievement gap. So I think that what she said at you know, at night when behind closed doors, we don't know as she said to her reporter once if I have differences with my husband I wouldn't be telling you. So we, we don't know what she thought but she certainly again as we can see there supported his policy by – by speaking about it publicly.

Susan Swain: On the international front, she traveled extensively as you mentioned. And she ultimately visited nearly 75 countries during her years in the White House. In addition to Afghanistan she became very much involved in the President's African AIDS relief effort. And malaria eradication effort – efforts and also met with Burmese refugees and exiles at the White House, what was, when she chose to be involved internationally, what drove those decisions?

Anne Gearhart: I think what drove a lot of those decisions was again the issue of women's rights and their full participation in the societies in which they were.

And an extension of that was women, she felt wanted to know that they could raise their children in live to – have lives that were sustaining and successful as best they could. And you know, the human rights flowed out of that. I think that the teachings of the Dalai Lama have been of interest to her in a way philosophically, there have been a couple members of the family who are engaged in that. The president has a cousin, (Leslie Walker) has been very engaged in that. I think through those conversations she – once again saw a female leader in a country who had been repressed. And under arrest for many years, sort of moved her to that. What do you think about that?

Mark Updegrove: Yes it's – it's when you talk to George W. Bush about this. And – and why he got involved in AIDS relief in , where no other President had really given much thought to to that, remarkably. George W. Bush is – did by far more for the country of Africa than any of this predecessors. And the reason is – is that to whom much is given, much is required. And he saw that the AIDS was eradicating much of Sub-Saharan Africa. And that he could do something about it. He could make a measurable difference. And he thought if he didn't do that, if he didn't take a chance and invest money in that cause in the eradication of that insidious disease that we would be judged in years to come.

So I think that a lot of it had to do with his religious faith. And again I think Laura Bush shares that faith.

Susan Swain: Next is (Cathy) in Du Quoin Illinois. Hi (Cathy).

(Cathy): Hello. The reason I was calling is earlier in this program the question was raised about when Laura found her faith once more. And I had read her book and she mentioned I lost my faith that November, lost it for many, many years. And if I recall correctly when she was on the book tour program for people who were interviewing her about her books she had written, she was asked when did you find your faith and she said that it came back to her gradually. And she mentioned like when her twin daughters was born that that you know, she said good things started happening. And I found my faith gradually. And I found it interesting on that subject in her book, she also mentioned, she said the one thing, the one wrenching fact is I have faith that one is never alone. And I think that's probably sums up how she felt about her faith.

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Susan Swain: (Cathy), thank you very much for calling and adding to our discussion. Turning to her book also on another issue and that is social policy issues like abortion and earlier a caller mentioned gay rights. Here's what she writes and spoken for the Heart, her Memoir. "On the issue of , I've always been struck by the deep divide between the sides. And how rarely the alternative of adoption is raised. We have so many friends and family members who found their children through adoption. George and I were fully expecting to be one of those.

Today, for women in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, infertility is the issue that is most personal to them and is a private struggle that breaks their hearts. We are a nation of different generations and beliefs, seeing issues through different eras and different eyes while cherishing life. I've always believed that abortion is a private decision and there, no one can walk in anyone else's shoes." It's something that she and George W – differ on one with …

Mark Updegrove: Well I think she said publicly when she was first lady that she would not in favor of overturning Roe vs. Wade, and I think she – she was asked whether you know that invited – whether gay people has slept at the White House while she was first lady. And she said probably and the interviewer asked would you object if that were the case and she said certainly not.

I think she – she let her views be known in subtle ways I think. Interestingly enough, you mentioned that the she and President Bush had trouble conceiving, in fact they had, went to an adoption organization to see if they could adopt twins and then they ended up conceiving their own set of twins, quite unexpectedly, I believe.

Susan Swain: We've been talking a lot in this program about the amount Laura Bush did all the time that she spent on the road and certainly throughout the 20th Century first ladies that has been a story told again and again. In the interview that we do with Laura Bush, we asked her about whether or not First Ladies should earn a salary for all this work. Here's her answer.

Male: Mrs. Bush, should the First Lady receive a salary?

Laura Bush: I don't think so. There are plenty of perks, believe me.

A chef, that was really great, i miss the chef. I don't think so, no I don't think so. And I think the interesting question really is not, should they receive a salary but should they be able to work for a salary at their job that they might have already had? And I think that's what's we'll have to come to terms with. Should, you know, will, I mean, for certainly a first gentleman might continue to work whatever he did if he was a lawyer, or whatever, so I think that's really the question we should ask, is should she have a career during those years that her husband is president in addition to serving as first lady.

Susan Swain: Certainly at the state level, some first spouses have been able to pursue their own careers but could this work on a national level? What about conflict of interest and whatever job that a spouse would hold? It is possible for someone in this day and age to migrate from having a life fully outside the White House as well as being first spouse?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think we have to give it a try and see how we think it works out. Now I think that certainly the ceremonial aspects of the job are ones that you might be able to find some flexibility in, I mean, we have had other presidents who were not married and had hostesses who carried that on for them.

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So certainly, some of those really old-fashioned ways of being the gracious spouse in the White House we could change. As I said it I think that it's a relational job it's not a political job in many ways being First Lady. It is a job about tending to the primary, the principle in its highest form as staff members do – not suggesting that a First Lady is a staff member. But I'm saying that you know, she once said to me, being the wife of George Bush is her most important job whether her husband is president or not. And by that I took her to mean that, that is her primary relational core of life. And she has other pursuits and she certainly has hobbies, many of which she doesn't share, that she takes on her own.

But I think anyone would be hard pressed to continue but there is always a first time for everything.

Mark Updegrove: You know, I don't think there are many First Ladies who wouldn't say that the most important role they played was as a sort of pillar of strength to their husbands in times of need, being there for them.

Ann Gearhart: No and I would hope that when we have a female president which I am sure we will if she has a spouse, that spouse will feel the same way about supporting her.

Susan Swain: Well speaking of support, we referred to this earlier, but we have a chart which we're going to show the audience about the president's popularity ratings during his eight years in office and as you can see peaked enormously after the 9/11 attacks and then continued downward through the years of his presidency. Laura Bush however remained popular with the American public and in 2006 Poll, she was at a much, much higher rate than the president, 82 percent approval rating in January of 2006. What does that say about the American public and their ability to see separately the roles of people in the White House?

Ann Gearhart: Well, I think that the American people are pretty wise, and in many ways. And they certainly know that she hasn't been elected to that position, that she somewhat is there by virtue of her relationship to the president. She carries on. She does what she can do. She can't be held responsible entirely for the political decisions he makes.

I suppose that probably sounds naïve to a lot of people but I was always really struck when I was covering her, people would say, "but she seems so like this", or "she seems so like that", or, you know, she reads (Dostoyevsky) and, you know, she really likes Bob Marley so what does she think when she talks to him because he's a warmongering man and I'd always say, that's the wrong question. You are speaking as a voter and a citizen and you have concerns about what you've elected this president to do and you feel he's fulfilling that. But, she's his wife. She too is a constituent but that is certainly not her primary role and the way she looks at it and I do think people discern that.

Susan Swain: (Dennis) is watching us in Brooklyn. Hi (Dennis) you're on.

(Dennis): Hi Susan, how are you? Thank you for the series, it's great. My question for the panel is was Mrs. Bush less political and more compassionate and sympathetic than most other recent first ladies? I remember her being so aware of the victims of September 11, saying that she would daily read the Times profiles of the dead that were published at that time and recall her many visits to the Walter Reed Hospital to visit veterans. Was this rooted in her being a war time First Lady or is this consistent with her personality and demeanor in general? Thank you.

Susan Swain: Thanks so much. Mark?

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Mark Updegrove: I think the answer is both. You know, there aren't many first ladies who are overtly political, really. I think she played a more traditional role as First Lady than say, Hillary Clinton or . But frankly, I think the two things the gentleman mentioned were very much consistent with her personality reading the obituaries of the dead, comforting the people in need, that's very much a part of her personality.

Susan Swain: So, I'm going to interrupt, because our time is actually getting short. You referenced this earlier and that was her trip to the White House Correspondents dinner and in fact just as had done two decades earlier, she went to the press corps to have people see her in a different light and perhaps they did, with covering her regularly. Let's watch and those of you who saw it originally will remember this time when she spoke up as surprisingly.

George W. Bush: And so the city slicker asked the old guy how to get to the nearest town ...

Laura Bush: Not that old joke. Not again.

George always says he's delighted to come to these press dinners. Baloney! He's usually in bed by now. I'm not kidding. I said to him the other day, "George, if you really want to end tyranny in the world, you're going to have to stay up later."

I am married to the president of the United States, and here's our typical evening. 9:00, Mr. Excitement here is sound asleep, and I'm watching Desperate Housewives— with . Ladies and gentlemen, I am a desperate housewife.

Susan Swain: Laura Bush at the 2005 White House Correspondents Dinner, so you can tell and see as an event that was well-received. One of the things we've talked about with each of the first ladies' profiles is their stewardship of the White House. During her time in the White House, Laura Bush did a restoration of the Lincoln bedroom. We're going to watch as she talks about that next.

Laura Bush: We've refurbished the Lincoln bedroom; I would say that's the biggest renovation project that we've worked on. That Lincoln bedroom was last done by Truman, when he set it up to be the Lincoln bedroom, to have the Lincoln furniture in it. When Lincoln lived here the room was his office, and when Truman redid the house in the late 40s and early 50s, he set up that room, the room now we call the Lincoln bedroom to commemorate the fact that it was Lincoln's office and it was the room that he signed the emancipation proclamation in.

So the room itself is really a shrine I think to American history. Truman redid the room then in that renovation and ot had never been refurbished since and really needed it. The carpet was the over 50 years old and so I have worked with the White House, a historical association, the preservation board who are furniture curators art historians wall paper specialist, they are the real scholars. And the White House curator of course and we've looked back at the wall paper Lincoln had in his office, at the carpet, he had in his office and we did reproductions of those. And then we had old photographs of the way had draped the Lincoln bed with the purple and gold and fringe and lace really high Victorian decorating and we did have later photographs not contemporary with Lincoln but the bed, still dressed the way she had dressed it and so we did that again.

Susan Swain: How did the Bushes use the White House as a social instrument during their years, and how do they use it to advance policy, what was entertaining like while we had wars going on?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think that they had only really begun to entertain the dinner for the Mexican president was a few days before September 11th and it kind of backfired literally because they had

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fireworks and they hadn't really warned anybody that it was happening and so this sort of exploded all over the town. Everybody was sort of alarmed. And then after September 11th, I think there is a great deal of thought as to what was appropriate and how to do it. I think that certainly Laura Bush has been instrumental in seeing the White House as a living historical institution and using it as a way to help people understand what the lives have been like for people who lived there at the time and the way that it reflects the period and of the way that it reflects the context of the time, I mean, the meticulous need to recreate what Mary Lincoln has done is really about also showing the tenor of those times and what was considered the right way to be. And I think that mostly themselves, you know, they would bring friends in and do that but, they favored smaller gatherings certainly and not much, as she was right, he went to bed at 9:00 at night -- she was –rather might stay up late reading or prefer a little dancing, so.

Susan Swain: And we take a call from (David) in Provo, Utah, hi (David).

(David): Hi, I was calling to ask about Laura Bush's influence on the politics or the democratic rights in Burma. I know that she was really championing that towards the end of the second Bush Administration.

Susan Swain: Thanks so much. Either of you know?

Ann Gearhart: Well again, I've always found it really kind of curious and I wish I knew more about that. I haven't really been able to understand exactly what moved her to do that. She really became quite outspoken in a way I would argue that that is her most forceful and surprising role as a First Lady to wade into foreign policy in an area where the United States had been kind of, not all that engaged, in speaking out against the generals and all of that. So, she's been persistent and I think that continues to this day along with her interest in women's rights in Afghanistan. I mean, she just recently appeared with Secretary Kerry and former Secretary Clinton, the three of them the state department to make this plea that as we pull out of Afghanistan, we don't leave women behind. So, but the issue about Burma is a fascinating one and I don't know very much about where that's come from.

Susan Swain: In that clip, Laura Bush mentioned the White House historical association as this series winds down, I want to remind you that we've been watching along the way, the White House historical association has been our partners throughout the series, helping us extensively with research and with photographs along the way. We have also partnered with them and this biography book the special edition of the first ladies of the United States and many thousands of you have had a copy of that so you can learn more about the lives of the first ladies. I'm cognizant of our time here and so as we leave her White House years I want to put on the record, some of a Laura Bush's accomplishments in office as we mentioned as the first, the first lady to deliver the President's weekly radio address, the founder of the National Book Festival which continues to this day, visited more than 75 countries during her eight years in the White House and renovated the Lincoln bedroom among those that we are highlighting. And in 2009, she became a private citizen again and how has she approached that aspect of her life?

Mark Updegrove: I think the Bushes went very comfortably back into their private lives. I don't think that they missed the grandeur of the White House, I think they've eased very, you know, very gracefully into private life. They've gone back to their lives in Dallas. Mrs. Bush continues to be very much involved with the Bush Center which I referenced earlier that includes the Bush Institute and the Bush Library. She was instrumental in the planning of the Bush Library and I think her touch can particularly be seen in the grounds surrounding it with its native grasses and native plants, something she has a great passion for. So I think she continues to lead a very full life, and as I mentioned earlier

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Susan, continues to pursue some of the causes that were dear to her as first lady through the Bush Institute.

Ann Gearhart: It was the nice things about being first lady in a way too is that, so you think you'll have just the brief period of time but your impact does continue and she actually has more room to continue to be involved in these policy initiatives, then certainly the former president does or would or has suggested he wants to, because he doesn't think it's the right for a president to be criticizing another one, but she and Mrs. Obama for instance have both been together in Africa, have had a summit for first ladies of Africa, they've worked together on a number of things, Mrs. Clinton, and she and the secretary have carried on those things and she I think has been surprisingly and happily engaged in a way she thought she might not be. But we have in fact the clip of her trip to Africa with the current first lady , let's watch that next.

Laura Bush: That's why we're launching the First Ladies Initiative at the Bush Institute. We want to support first ladies around the world by convening them annually to highlight the significant role that they can play in addressing pressing issues in their countries.

Michelle Obama: I constantly get asked, especially in the first term, are you more like Laura Bush or are you more like Hillary Clinton, and I'm like, is that it?

(Crosstalk)

Laura Bush: Are you Hillary Clinton or Barbara Bush?

Michelle Obama: Right.

Laura Bush: And I always just said well I think I'll be Laura Bush, I knew Laura Bush pretty well having grown up as her in Midland, Texas.

Susan Swain: Mark, you've had the opportunity to host some of these panel session with the first ladies talking about the role and what you hear is the desire on the part of the public and the press to typecast and also the desire of the women in the role to be their own self despite all the enormous pressure to be something other than that.

Would you comment on it?

Mark Updegrove: Last word, I think they're always going to be compared to their predecessors in particular, are you going to be more a traditional first lady like a , an activist first lady like Eleanor Roosevelt, which one will you be and I think they all put their unique stamp on the role. Laura Bush was no exception.

Susan Swain: We have read a couple of times from Laura Bush's memoir which is spoken from the heart, you've talked along the way about what a guarded individual she was. When you read her memoir, do we learn any more about her, than you had known perhaps from all your reporting in your biography?

Ann Gearhart: Well, I was interested in hearing from her in her own words, what she wants to reveal about who she is and what she reveals about what's important. I think that one of the keys to understanding Laura Bush is that she's a reader and that that is a really integral part, and they, you know, that gentleman David I think who called from Provo wanted to know about whether she was more empathetic. I think that she finds power in narrative and in story and in human's story and that's

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what she responds to, that's what touches her, that what – is what compels her to act in many ways and I gathered from her a deeper understanding from that book of the meaning of Texas land, the sound of the wind, the great giants of Texas literature who have come before her she returns to again and again, Edna Ferber, I think that that's really a key to understanding who she is. She's not a crusader, as much as she is a reader and that is what then forms the way she moves through life in many ways.

Mark Updegrove: And what transported her from West Texas, I mean she would – she talks about the incongruity of being in West Texas reading Plato, these classic writers and leaving Midland through those pages, through those narratives. I think her book is exceptionally well-written. And what I was far more interested in the first part of it which is the story of her growing up in Midland which she writes so poetically about than I was about her duties as First Lady which will often get into, you know, one ceremony after the next. It's very difficult I think to write compellingly about ones tenure as first lady because again it is so ceremonial in nature.

Susan Swain: (Debbie) is watching us from Louisville, hi (Debbie) you're on.

(Debbie): Hi Susan. I want to thank you very much for this program. My question is we have many influential first ladies to go back through history. That could be Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama or Laura Bush, what is the most important thing that you believe that Laura Bush have done for the American – or for women's rights. And Susan, of all the first ladies which ones bring more or that had impressed you the most?

Susan Swain: Oh, thanks. I'm going to pass on that answer because I've been in this chair and the role of interviewer along the way. But did she make any advances for women's rights, the caller wants to know.

Ann Gearhart: I think that she – I think that with all of these first ladies it's really hard to judge them in almost the contemporary times in which we are in now. I would defer to my historian colleague here. I write about the now in many ways. I think it's too soon for us to know exactly what kind of impact Laura Bush has had in terms of women's rights.

So I think that she has been a representative in her own way for rights in a way that is not as expected as someone who has crusaded – I guess what I'm trying to say is, with what some people see is her more traditional mein to speak from that position on behalf of women who do not have opportunities. In some ways makes her more effective because it's not quite expected. So almost as if she's championing it in a place that we wouldn't expect to hear it, perhaps.

Mark Updegrove: I think both the Bushes take the long view of history. And actually Laura Bush talks about the fact that she admired her husband for taking a long viewof history, and making difficult decisions during the course of his presidency that wouldn't necessarily manifest themselves in popularity, you know that – and I think you're right, I think his presidency and how it's reflected is very much in the balance we'll see what happens, he knows that. And I think most historians know that.

And I think her contributions as First Lady will be revealed as we begin to see the forest for the trees in the tenures of both of them in the White House.

Susan Swain: We have just a couple of minutes left. So people have asked along the way. And I have been negligent in asking it on their behalf. Since she is historically the only first lady to have had a

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mother-in-law who served in the role people are curious about the relationship between the two women. What can you tell them?

Ann Gearhart: Well I think that they have a good relationship and a strong relationship as best as I can tell. I wouldn't presume to say, you know, it's exactly a marriage that I wouldn't presume to say, you know, exactly what's between a mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law. You know, she famously stepped to with Barbara Bush who has a large personality when she first came to kennebunkport. And Barbara Bush was said to say somewhat tartly, and you do what you do when they were all, the boys were all running around competing against each other and she said, "I read, I smoke, and I admire."

That was her way of saying, oh this is who I am. This is what I'm going to be doing and I may not fit some mold. I think that she respects very much her mother-in-law's life. And I think that Barbara Bush for her part has been very grateful, said she was at the beginning for settling down her boy. And is steady and once said, you know, she's the one with the first lady potential.

Mark Updegrove: I think that's right, I know there's great mutual admiration I think between the two. They're very different women. But I think that's right, I think Barbara Bush saw in Laura Bush the qualities of a great – a political partner or a great spouse for her husband as he embarked on a political career.

Susan Swain: The two daughters, Jenna, is an NBC correspondent. She married, not in the White House even though her parents were still in office in 2008. And they gave George and Laura Bush their first grandchild. Barbara is a CEO of an organization called Global Health Corps. And as we close here tonight, I want to say, thank you to our two guests for helping us understand more about the life and times and the still unfolding legacy of Laura Bush. Thanks to both of you for being here…

Mark Updegrove: Thank you too.

Susan Swain: ... for taking our caller's questions.

Ann Gearhart: Thank you.

Susan Swain: ... throughout the evening. And we're going to close with some thoughts about the members of the , the President himself and the two daughters on their mother First Lady Laura Bush. Thanks for being with us.

Laura Bush: Well I don't want to steal Barbara's. I feel like I always steal her – I'm thirsty, do you want to go first?

(Crosstalk)

Female: OK.

Female: You go first the next time.

Female: If you can go first the next.

Female: Thank you.

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Female: OK. So, I would say probably her work for women and all over really and we were so lucky because our parent took us on travels to Africa and so we got to see PEPFAR being unrolled and being in clinics and schools, and meeting people whose lives would be forever changed. So I would say, her work for women as, you know, but more broadly probably PEPFAR and my dad too, I'm very proud of him for that.

Female: I think definitely echo that and also this was brought up before by Anita-– but I think after 9/11 mom played such a, I'm going to cry.

Female: OK. …

Female: I know.

Female: It's okay, all Bushes cry.

Female: In front of people. Why in front of a lot of people? I think her – the work that she did after 9/11 and just how comforting she was to everyone in the country is an incredibly legacy and what's really critical to the country healing after 9/11.

George W. Bush: If I were doing a series on first ladies I would be probing this question, could the first lady handle the pressure? Because if the answer is no, then the life of the President could be pretty miserable, you know, Laura was unbelievably calming and she was, you know, a pillar of strength in the midst of all the noise and, you know, finger-pointing and yelling and all the stuff that goes on in Washington. And she's a great first lady, really great first lady.

Female: Join us for First Ladies next Monday when we examine the life of Michelle Obama from her time at Princeton in Harvard to the Chicago law Firm where she mentored another young lawyer . And we'll look at the causes she's taken on including supporting military families and childhood obesity. That's next Monday at 9pm Eastern CSPAN, CSPAN3 and CSPAN radio.

And our website has more about the First Ladies including a special section welcome to the white house produced by our partner the White House Historical Association. It chronicles life in the executive mansion during the tenure of each of the first ladies. Go to cspan.org. And with the association we're offering a special edition of the book First Ladies of the United States of America which include the biography, and a portrait of each First Lady. It's available for 1295 plus shipping.

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