TRANSCRIPT OF SENIOR MINISTER GOH CHOK TONG’S MEDIA ROUND-UP IN YANGON, MYANMAR ON 11 JUNE 2009 AT 1400 HRS

Mr Goh: “My main purpose in coming to Myanmar is to update myself on the economic and political developments in the country and to engage Senior General Than Shwe and other senior leaders in Myanmar in a constructive discussion on Myanmar’s road to democracy. On economic development, I saw signs of progress since my last visit over here, more cars on the road, more taxis and very few over-crowded buses and decrepit vehicles which were there in my last visit some 11 years ago. There are also signs of new buildings, new offices, condominiums and homes, but outside the urban areas, outside Yangon, Mandalay and Taunggyi, of course, the housing was very basic and this is particularly so in the countryside. In the rice fields, you could see the thatched huts, some very small, rather elementary. Obviously there must be areas of poverty in Myanmar. But in the city areas, I could see signs of progress.

“On the political side, my interest is to encourage Myanmar to move on with its roadmap towards democracy. Myanmar is a rather complex country. In a sense, its stability rests on three legs. It’s like a tripod. You have the Tatmadaw, which of course is a very strong leg or strong pillar and then there are the insurgents. Up to now I was told that there are some 17 ethnic groups fighting the Myanmar government but they have agreed to a ceasefire as of now. But whether all will take part in the election is still not known yet. Of course the other leg will be the opposition forces, parties like NLD, Aung San Suu Kyi’s party. I group the multi- ethnic groups as one leg, so the stability of the country depends on these three legs. I could see that Senior General Than Shwe is in a very difficult situation. He has inherited this military regime. Myanmar has been under a military government since 1962, so it’s not his creation. I had long discussions when Ne Win was alive on the political problems of Myanmar. He told me quite frankly during his time he had come to a dead end, he didn’t know what to do. He said it was up to the younger generation to decide what to do with Myanmar. Myanmar has come to a cul de sac. How does he make a U-turn? I think that’s not easy since the country has been under a military government for so long. There’s no civil service as you know it. The civil service is in fact a military civil service. The ministers in charge wear uniforms. Technocrats are not in charge. I could see that Senior General Than Shwe would like to bring the country towards democracy. A step by step, cautious but practical approach which of course he hopes will result in stability for the country and perhaps a new era but nevertheless the military’s authority was his main consideration. So I encouraged him, because I think it’s necessary that Myanmar recognizes that the world has changed. Myanmar can’t be governed in the same way as of now.

“Myanmar must make steps towards democracy in Myanmar’s own way. How to do that? We had a long discussion but I made several points. First, the process 2

of elections must be seen to be legitimate. Legitimacy means a fair and transparent election. More importantly legitimacy means inclusive contests, that means all parties that want to contest the elections must be allowed to contest. And I emphasized that it’s important for Aung San Suu Kyi to be seen to be campaigning for the NLD. If she’s not campaigning for the party and whoever wins, one could argue that it’s not quite legitimate because the main opposition party was not there campaigning with its leader. For the process to be seen to be legitimate, you must have two elements. One, an inclusive election, all parties allowed to contest. Aung San Suu Kyi allowed to campaign and fair and transparent. Of course, he assured me that the election would be fair and transparent. I didn’t quite get to know the answer regarding Aung San Suu Kyi, just my point of view to him. He listened intently. I would not know how he would react.

“We also discussed the trial of Aung San Suu Kyi. Singapore’s viewpoint is quite straightforward. We were dismayed by the arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi. We are concerned as to what the verdict will be like and what the sentence will be like. I put this arrest and verdict of Aung San Suu Kyi in the context of national reconciliation and the road to the 2010 elections and thereafter to democracy for Myanmar. I impressed upon the leaders that, in my view, Aung San Suu Kyi’s arrest and trial is a domestic matter but this domestic matter has an international dimension because Aung San Suu Kyi’s arrest has aroused international interest and concern as to her welfare once the verdict is known. Myanmar cannot ignore this international interest in Aung San Suu Kyi’s trial and verdict. I made this point that Aung San Suu Kyi’s trial and verdict in a sense would also affect this national reconciliation process to democracy. The answer is obvious. If she’s not allowed to contest, then of course it will affect the legitimacy of the election.

“Aung San Suu Kyi’s case would also affect Myanmar’s international relations. I gave my observation that the US government under President Obama and State Secretary, Hillary Clinton, is reviewing US foreign policy towards all countries, China, India, the Islamic world, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea and Iran. President Obama is trying to reach out to others including those with which the US did not have good relations. So Myanmar in time to come would also be reviewed. If Myanmar wants to have good relations with the US, how the trial comes out, what the verdict will be is going to affect US-Myanmar relations. I think the government is aware that there’s an international perspective to the trial of Aung San Suu Kyi. It is a domestic affair, what the verdict will be, nobody knows, what the sentence will be, we would not know. We will not want to prejudge or to influence in any way on something which is of domestic politics. But this has a political angle to it, both domestically as well as far as Myanmar’s relations with the international community. Those were the main points which I discussed with the Myanmar leaders, Senior General Than Shwe and Prime Minister Thein Sein. 3

“On bilateral relations, PM Thein Sein would like to have investments from Singapore. I told him that this would not be possible until the elections and the results are known. In other words, I made it quite clear that political stability, prospects of Myanmar, how it’s going to be governed is going to determine whether Myanmar gets investments or not and that includes investments from Singapore. I don’t believe any Singapore investor would come in a big way before the picture is clear, before this move towards democracy is seen to produce some results. But my main observation is Senior General Than Shwe would like to make this transition from the current way of governance to a more democratic way. But of course he’s in charge, he knows the problems, he’s moving step by step. But the main point is I think he’s trying to make this U-turn from the cul de sac and I wish him progress in making this transition.”

Q: “How reassured are you by the response from Senior General Than Shwe? For example, Myanmar has always seemed to be going in its own path:”

Mr Goh: “The point is we gathered the key leaders over there, the top five leaders were there. So, I was not just speaking to him, I was actually making my point to all five leaders and they all listened intently. I checked with my fellow colleagues over here and my officials. They confirmed that when they watched the body language of the leaders, they are all listening intently. But I would not be able to know what decision they would come to.”

Q: “Did you leave quite optimistic from the meeting that things may change at least for the upcoming general election with regards to Ms Suu Kyi?”

Mr Goh: “I left with the impression that they had hoisted in my point but beyond that I cannot read their minds. But they gave me more than one hour listening to my observations, my encouragement because as I told them, Singapore did not come over here to pressure them on what to do. That’s key. We do not pressure them on what to do and I never come here to give advice because when many people come to Singapore and give advice on how to do things, we are offended, you don’t just fly to the country and look around and give advice. But I travel a lot and I have been to many countries. Singapore has got to watch international events, we have got to understand global trends, so what I could do as an old friend of Myanmar is to give inputs. But I make it very clear these are inputs, then he would, therefore, have additional inputs to decide. How he would decide, I would not know but at least I'm optimistic that he listened, because I spent more than one hour with him. Now people would know Senior General Than Shwe, if he is not happy with the discussion, he is upset, he would just get up and say meeting over. So I talked for more than an hour and I therefore consider my inputs of some value to him."

Q: "I think you met with some of the younger generals...how was it.." 4

Mr Goh: "Yes, I think this trip was also useful in allowing me and my colleagues to meet the younger generals. These are generals who will take over in Tamatdaw anyway, some of them may stand for elections later on but at least I think they will be in charge of Tamatdaw in the years to come. At the moment, the younger generals are very concerned about stability, security of Myanmar. I do not get a sense that they could discuss foreign affairs or international matters, their world view is the security and stability of Myanmar. Yes, Thiam Seng, any point?"

Q: "For this trip, it looks like the progress seems very slow."

Mr Goh: "It is slow, it is slow, I mean it's not ideal from an outsider's point of view but you have got to know what the place is like. They have sanctioned themselves, they have isolated themselves and they find that the tortoise is crawling in the corner, how do you turn around? But the point is they recognize the problem. That's the key, they recognize the problem. They have to decide on how to turn and they are taking a slow cautious, practical approach on the road to democracy. I also made a point which I think they recognized. I said under your constitution, Tamatdaw would have 25 per cent of the seats in parliament. Is it open-ended? I think that ten years down the road, 20 years down the road, Tamatdaw said to have 20 per cent of the seats, you are not in fact reaching democracy, you are still on the road to democracy. His answer was quite straight forward. There will be a parliament elected and it's for the parliament to decide. The situation can be changed but the point I am making to him is democracy means you end up eventually with a parliament of elected representatives. You don’t have seats for the military. He understood the point. We could engage in a discussion, and that is Singapore-style, we come here to engage them in a quiet way, in a constructive way, giving ideas, giving perspectives from an outside world to Myanmar. We read all kinds of newspapers, IHT, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, we watch CNA, CNN, BBC and all the other channels, whereas over here, you do not have access to this outside viewpoint. So it is useful to talk frankly. If you ask me whether I can tell you what they have decided, my answer is I cannot. I only know they listened. I think they were quite pleased that I was here but beyond that I do not know what would be the outcome of the trial, how democracy will be like."

Q: "From the meeting with the younger leaders, do you think they are well-informed and do they know about international trends?"

Mr Goh: "No, they will not be. The younger leaders in the military I think they will not be so involved. In a way, we did not get to discuss that because there's no point. I've already discussed with number one man. There’s no point to then go around discussing foreign policy matters with the younger generals. So I may be wrong, they might have a very good idea on what the outside world is like but we didn’t discuss this. -V 5

Mr Goh: (Turning to Minister Gan Kim Yong and MP Michael Palmer) “All right one more point. This is your first visit. What are your observations of the country. You have no reference point, whereas I have reference points from the eighties."

Mr Gan: "I think first and foremost as a new minister, it's a good opportunity for me to come here to meet senior leaders as well as the younger generation of leaders to have a better sense of their thinking, their concerns and their challenges. Politically, my impression was it is quite a complex issue. On one hand, they have to deal with the internal security and stability, on the other hand, they have to manage the process to democracy. So I think they have chosen to do it in a step- by-step managed way. I think they will have to find their own way, their own balanced point. What struck me most is really on the economic side. I don’t have a reference point as SM pointed out. I couldn’t tell whether they made any significant progress but what struck me was the country was endowed with abundant natural resources. As we flew over Shan state yesterday for example we can see vast expanse of agricultural land and we visited a vineyard and looked at a foreign investment, look at how it grew and expanded and we also looked at, visited a few historical sites which has great tourism potential. I think if Myanmar is able to make progress in political reform, I think it will give it more opportunities to develop the economy much better, in a much more definitive way. I think this will help improve the quality and standard of living for the Myanmar people. I think this is a potential that is yet to be tapped.

“On the people side, this morning we had an opportunity to visit a new hospital and we have a chance to mingle with the people as well as visit the head of the village. And in this short visit, my personal impression is that the people are very warm and very friendly, not just because we opened the hospital because on the way back on the boat, we still see people waving to us as normal villagers. Michael was at the head of the boat and they were waving to him and to all of us, so they welcomed visitors and they were very friendly and very warm. So I think these are my initial impressions but I think one visit is not enough for us to really get to understand Myanmar in depth but it underscores the need for us to continue to engage Myanmar, the leaders, the people, the people sector as well as the business sector, so that we will be able to better understand the developments here and the challenges that they face, the way they think and also at the same time share with them developments outside as well as our views and our perceptions. So we should, as SM put it, provide valuable inputs to them as they formulate their policies moving forward. I think this trip overall has been very useful, very exciting for me."

Mr Goh: "Kim Yong made a key comment and that's the nub of the issue. Without political reform, the road to democracy, Myanmar cannot achieve fast economic growth and attain the standard of living of the more developed countries in ASEAN. So that's key. And my point was the Myanmar leaders understand, they must make changes politically." 6

Mr Palmer: "I think it’s a very interesting trip, my first time to Myanmar, as Minister Gan said it's a country with vast resources. The people are friendly as he pointed out, but they also have an advantage in that many of them I interacted with can speak some amount of English, which helps a lot in international relations, when you get economic investment with foreigners coming in. I think the 2010 elections is going to be a watershed event for them. As Senior Minister pointed out, if it's done with legitimacy, it will be a new beginning for them and Myanmar could be on the way to its renaissance. That's my view."

Q: "If you could just explain to Singaporeans why is Singapore so concerned about developments in Myanmar?"

Mr Goh: "Well, first Myanmar is a member of ASEAN. We believe in the integration of ASEAN. There will be an ASEAN common market by the year 2015 and there will be an ASEAN community by the year 2020. So those are the end goals for ASEAN. Now if they can achieve this common market for the ASEAN free trade area and community by the targeted dates, we are in the centre of this whole community, we can grow along with ASEAN. And on a bilateral basis, we would want to have more international space by way of investments, by way of markets, and if Myanmar can become like Thailand or grow like Vietnam and Cambodia, and Laos later on, also grows and becomes more like should we say Indonesia today in about 20 years’ time, then we have a prosperous ASEAN and we would be in this centre of a prosperous ASEAN. If Myanmar collapses, assuming the road to democracy doesn’t work and there's chaos in the country, Myanmar's collapse is going to affect Thailand and Thailand would be dragged down by a very poor neighbour. And that's going to have a ripple effect on all the other countries. So for Singaporeans, we come here, we spend time to engage because we want ASEAN to prosper. It's better for us to be in a prosperous ASEAN, than to be in a region with all kinds of problems. Thank you."