Vol. 755 Thursday No. 23 10 July 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions European Commission: UK Member ...... 269 NHS: Hospital Waiting Times...... 271 NHS: District Nurses ...... 274 Arts: Lottery Funding ...... 276 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 279 Communications Data and Interception Statement...... 279 BBC World Service and British Council Motion to Take Note...... 291 Legal Systems: Rule of Law Motion to Take Note...... 329

Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill Committee (3rd Day)...... GC 155

Written Statements...... WS 25 Written Answers ...... WA 63

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2014, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 269 European Commission: UK Member[10 JULY 2014] European Commission: UK Member 270

Baroness Warsi: The noble Lord will be aware that House of Lords a number of privy counsellors have served as Commissioners and they have managed to serve incredibly Thursday, 10 July 2014. well. 11 am Lord Tomlinson (Lab): Does the noble Baroness Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Truro. agree that one of the qualities that our Commissioner will need is a capacity to ignore the personal vendetta European Commission: UK Member that has been run by the Prime Minister against Mr Jean- Question Claude Juncker and to learn how to get on with him as the distribution of portfolios, which is of major 11.06 am importance to this country, will partly be the responsibility of Mr Juncker? Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Baroness Warsi: I take real issue with what the expect to announce the name of the next United noble Lord has said. I try not to bring party politics to Kingdom member of the European Commission. this Dispatch Box but it is important that, when the Prime Minister of this country takes a principled The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities stance on an important matter—a matter on which his and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth party agreed—we should stop the sniping and get Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Lords, as set out in behind him. the treaties, Commission portfolios will be allocated by the Commission President Designate to those nominated Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, would there not by member states and agreed by common accord in the be much relief all round if Mr Clegg were asked to go Council. We expect the European Parliament to confirm to Brussels? Mr Juncker’s appointment as President Designate on 15 July. The Commission as a whole will then be confirmed by the European Parliament in the autumn. Baroness Warsi: Mr Clegg is an incredibly effective Deputy Prime Minister and a Cabinet colleague for Lord Dykes (LD): With the wise reminder last week whom I have great respect. If he were to take on that of the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, should not HMG role, I know that he would be deeply missed at Cabinet. deliberately and carefully make sure that they choose an ideal candidate on this occasion, because of the Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, if I were Prime Minister, urgent matters in hand for the European Commissioner? I would want to avoid a by-election. Does the noble The candidate should be an articulate, international, Baroness agree? sagacious, knowledgeable person—maybe female again, like her predecessor—someone who actually likes the Baroness Warsi: The important thing is that we and working with people and who make sure that we appoint a good Commissioner who likes foreigners and speaks foreign languages. As that does a good job in Europe. All the other factors are would of course narrow down the field if it is a secondary. Conservative nominee, what about a Liberal Democrat one? We are the only party that stood up for Europe at the last election. Lord Deben (Con): Does my noble friend accept that there are some serious matters at stake here? At Baroness Warsi: Possibly even from Yorkshire, my the heart of the Question—which has a lot of persiflage Lords. As to the serious part of my noble friend’s round it, if I may say so to my noble friend—is the fact question, we need to make sure that our Commissioner is that we need somebody who will go to Brussels and candidate understands the changing role of the European do the job properly, which means doing their best for Union, the need for reform and the fact that the the whole of the European Community, and who will Commissioner has to act in a way that benefits member have the confidence of people throughout the country. states and the European Union as a whole. I can It should not be somebody who goes to Brussels with assure my noble friend, and indeed the House, that the predetermined views and an unwillingness to work Prime Minister has a line-up of very strong candidates. with our colleagues in the European Union.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, are Baroness Warsi: My noble friend makes an important the Government aware that our new Commissioner point. However, I think he would accept that at the will have to swear sole allegiance to the European recent European elections, not just in the Union, ignoring our national interest? but across the European Union, the citizens of the member states sent out a very clear signal about the Lord Richard (Lab): Not true. kind of Europe they want, and it is important that Commissioners reflect that in their work. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Actually it is true; it is in the treaties. Does that not rule out privy counsellors, Lord Kinnock (Lab): I have listened to the noble who have taken an oath of sole allegiance to the Baroness over recent weeks on this issue. May I say to Queen? her— 271 European Commission: UK Member[LORDS] NHS: Hospital Waiting Times 272

Noble Lords: Question! by that test, will the Minister comment on this morning’s statistics from NHS England which showed that over Lord Kinnock: I said “May I say to her”—there the past year the number of patients waiting six months seems to be some difficulty with the English language or longer for treatment have gone up by 20%? Does on the other side of the House. The noble Baroness that not show that the Prime Minister has failed his has demonstrated a full understanding of the real own test? nature of the role of the Commissioner and the way in which the reform agenda has to be promulgated and Earl Howe: My Lords, I do not believe that that is a effectively developed in the European Commission fair comment. In the past four years, since the Government and, indeed, she is manifestly a woman. In order to came to office, we have substantially reduced the numbers make a real breakthrough and represent fully the of patients waiting longer than 18, 26 and 52 weeks to proper interests of this country in the context of the start treatment. Those numbers are lower than at any realities of the treaty, which have been misrepresented time under the previous Government. However, we by UKIP and by certain Members on her own side, need to address the build-up in patients waiting and, may I make so bold as to nominate her for the position? as a result, we are directing extra support and money for hospitals to do more than 100,000 additional Baroness Warsi: That is a very kind remark from operations over the next few months to meet the extra the noble Lord. It is an incredibly important job but I demand. can honestly say that it is not one that I am interested in. Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, is it Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, not a fact that the statement made this morning by the my noble friend has talked about the importance of new president of the Royal College of Surgeons makes the characteristics of the individual who is appointed. quite a lot of sense, and that most people would agree Given the portfolio that the United Kingdom is hoping with it? People who need life-saving operations urgently to get within the economic sphere—on these Benches should have priority, and people who have conditions we would like it to be the single market because that is that will not deteriorate—I am spreading more words an area where reform really needs to continue—does than she actually said—may be asked to wait longer to she accept that the right candidate is one who has a give that priority to the more urgent cases. Does my deep and thorough understanding of the portfolio noble friend not think that that first ever woman and that it is not just the characteristics of an individual president of the Royal College of Surgeons is talking per se that are important? common sense?

Baroness Warsi: My noble friend makes an important Earl Howe: Yes, she is. I have known the new point and, as I said at this Dispatch Box, the United president of the royal college for some years. She is a Kingdom will be looking for an economic portfolio. very considerable surgeon, and I agree with what she My noble friend will be aware that the make-up of the has said. Clinical priority is the main determinant of portfolio itself has yet to be discussed and what the when patients should be treated, and should remain final portfolio will look like will be determined once so. Clinicians should make decisions about the patient’s the President has been confirmed. treatment and patients should not experience undue delay at any stage of their referral, diagnosis, or indeed treatment. That is why we have moved away from NHS: Hospital Waiting Times targets to standards—to signal the importance of clinical Question priorities, which doctors should always feel able to act on. 11.14 am Asked by Lord Dubs Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, does To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action the noble Earl agree that, whatever he says about they are taking to reduce hospital waiting times. targets, the previous Labour Government reduced the maximum waiting time for in-patient treatment from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 18 months to 18 weeks? Was that not a substantial of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, hospital waiting reduction? Is the Minister not concerned that if we times are low and stable, but there are pressures from a take a whole raft of measurements, it shows a health growing and ageing population, and some patients are service now under great pressure financially and in not receiving their treatment as soon as we would like. terms of waiting times? NHS England, the NHS Trust Development Authority and Monitor are working with the most challenged Earl Howe: Yes, of course, the previous Government providers and commissioners. Operational resilience did an enormous amount to reduce waiting times. I guidance, published in June, will help the system prepare also hope, though, that the noble Lord will give us for winter and improve waiting times sustainably for credit for what we have done to reduce waiting times emergency and elective care. for those who have been waiting the longest, who were never targeted under the previous Government. I Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, that is a very impressive acknowledge that the system is under strain at the Answer. The Prime Minister said some time ago that moment, but we have plans for the short, medium and the test will be to get NHS waiting times down. Judged long term to address that situation. 273 NHS: Hospital Waiting Times[10 JULY 2014] NHS: District Nurses 274

Baroness Manzoor (LD): My Lords, the Government in fact decided that the share of the cake should be less have stated that there is to be parity of esteem between than the one we have allocated. We have had to strike a mental health services and acute services. Will my balance and I believe that we have done so in a noble friend the Minister state whether this will include responsible way. waiting times for the provision of mental health services to both adults and children? NHS: District Nurses Earl Howe: Up to now, mental health has been Question omitted from the waiting time standards. However, we are looking actively at what might be possible within 11.22 am the bounds of affordability. Asked by Baroness Wheeler To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, there seems to be they are taking to ensure that the National Health little doubt that waiting lists will grow. Is the noble Service has sufficient district nurses. Earl aware of the recent King’s Fund report, The NHS Productivity Challenge, which shows that the share of the national cake for the NHS, which was above 8% in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 2009, is now about 7% and is set to fall to around of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, the Department 6% by 2021. Is there any justification for reducing the of Health is working with Health Education England, share of GDP for health services? NHS England and the Queen’s Nursing Institute to raise the profile of district and community nursing and to attract more nurses to choose this as a career path. Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord knows of the That work includes a workforce project led by the economic constraints that this country has to contend Community Nursing Strategy Programme to ensure with at the moment. Despite that, the Government are an adequate supply of highly skilled district nurses to increasing the NHS budget over the course of this support patients in community settings, provide quality Parliament by £12.7 billion. That should indicate to care and improve patient outcomes. the noble Lord the priority that we are giving to the NHS. Baroness Wheeler (Lab): I thank the Minister for his response. Does he not agree that the failure to Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con): My Lords, the address the chronic shortage of district nurses makes Minister mentioned that the strain on the NHS is due the RCN’s call to action even more urgent? The college to old people getting older, but is it not true that the has found that district nurses are so stretched that they strain is due to young people getting fatter and fatter? can spend only 37% of their time actually dealing with Is it not true that the Department of Health misled the patients in the community, which is deeply worrying. nation by saying that the obesity epidemic—the worst How does this help people with long-term conditions for 90 years—is due to a lack of exercise when really it who depend on specialist nursing care to stay out of is due to people eating too much? hospital? When is a comprehensive strategy that addresses the urgent action which needs to be taken on this Earl Howe: My noble friend is a very eloquent matter going to be published? advocate of this particular issue and he is of course right. Earl Howe: My Lords, we recognise the need for urgent action, and that it is required across the piece. Lord Patel (CB): Can the Minister tell us how those We need to train more district nurses, and therefore trusts that do not report on their waiting times, although training places have gone up both last year and this they are small in number, are dealt with? How can they year. We also need to equip district nurses with technology. be held responsible when they do not report? To that end, the nursing technology fund will address the issue that the noble Baroness referred to initially, which is the time that nurses have to spend with their Earl Howe: A handful of trusts are unable to report patients. Technology can make time management much the full range of figures on their waiting times. They more efficient, and it is also good for the patient, who are given support to enable them to do so either by feels more in touch. NHS England and Health Education Monitor if they are foundation trusts or by the NHS England have set up a workforce project which, as I Trust Development Authority. said in my initial Answer, is designed to address not only workforce numbers but also the attractiveness of Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, I district nursing to trainees. do not believe that the House heard the noble Earl address the issue raised by my noble friend Lord Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, there has been a Turnberg. It was not about cash but about share. Can 47% reduction in district nurses over the previous he expand a little on why the share of GDP allocated 10 years. Does the Minister agree that if we are to have to the National Health Service is set to go down? real integration of health and social care, then commissioners, NHS England and Health Education Earl Howe: The share of GDP is only one measure. England should prioritise support for district nurses We have to take into account the state of the economy. and community posts, not least to reduce the pressure If the party opposite had been elected to office, it had on hospital beds? 275 NHS: District Nurses[LORDS] Arts: Lottery Funding 276

Earl Howe: These matters are locally determined by Arts: Lottery Funding commissioners, but my noble friend makes a valid Question point. It is important to understand that district nursing services involve qualified district nurses leading and 11.28 am supporting multidisciplinary teams which often include staff nurses, community nurses and healthcare assistants, Asked by The Earl of Clancarty working with allied health professionals. We also need to recognise that social care relies on the same pool of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light registered nurses for local authority-funded care, and of Arts Council England’s recently announced funding in fact nurses employed by local authorities are not plan, whether they continue to adhere to the principle counted in the statistics. of additionality with respect to lottery funding of the arts.

Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab): My Lords, I recently Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Lords, the came across a district nursing service which had been Government believe in the importance of a mixed contracted out to the private sector, to the considerable funding model for the arts. This includes public funding, confusion of some of the patients using it. Does the lottery revenue, philanthropic giving and private income. Minister have the figures for how many district nursing Each contributes to the vibrancy and success of the services have been contracted out in this way? arts in this country. The Government expect all lottery distributors, including Arts Council England, to ensure Earl Howe: I do not have the figures, but of course that they adhere to the principles of additionality and this process started under the previous Government remain accountable to Parliament. with the “Transforming Community Services”programme, which very often hived off the community provision The Earl of Clancarty (CB): My Lords, I am sure into social enterprises. If I have statistics on this I will that companies whose entire award now comes from gladly send them to the noble Baroness. the lottery, such as the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and Glyndebourne Touring Opera, are grateful that The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, I recently they benefit from what is undeniably the changed received a letter from a lady whose daughter has ME status of lottery funding. However, does the Minister and is confined to bed. She is under the age of 16, and not agree that what have always been most at risk over was given a male care assistant who would not perform the past four years, and increasingly so even within a certain tasks for her. When her mother went to the supposedly improved economy, are the small companies surgery to ask if a district nurse could come and do and organisations whose funding by government subsidy those tasks, she was told no because the girl was under has proved over decades to be the best and most 16. Is this correct? efficient means by which innovative work is encouraged throughout the whole country?

Earl Howe: I am happy to look into that case, but Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I am grateful clearly we need to ensure that there are the right skills to the noble Earl for referring to the whole country, for the right patients, and this is what the health because investment outside the London is very much service increasingly aims to achieve. The district nursing one of the Arts Council England’s priorities. The team has to contain those multidisciplinary skills. If increasing amount that is invested outside London is there is a case of someone being inappropriately looked terribly important. Arts Council England has the after, then that is certainly a cause for concern. responsibility for ensuring that those funds are directed appropriately. It clearly would not be for government Baroness Manzoor (LD): My Lords, nearly 50% of or civil servants to start deciding winners and losers in district nurses are over the age of 50. I heard what the the artistic world; that is for Arts Council England Minister said regarding the number of nurses in training and its responsibility to invest. but perhaps the numbers could be looked at again, because quite a number of district nurses will soon be Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, is retiring. the Minister aware that, during the past 20 years, as a result of the principle of additionality, lottery funds Earl Howe: My noble friend makes a good point, have been allocated substantially to capital? As a and this was highlighted by the royal college. Health result of the combination of lottery and substantial Education England was established precisely to ensure private funding, we have a remarkable range of new-built a greater connection between the needs and demands and refurbished cultural buildings. How will the of local employers and the education and training Government ensure that, in the next 20 years, those commissions which are made. It takes into account all buildings are not allowed to fall into disrepair because the relevant variables, such as the age profile of the lottery funding is being allocated elsewhere, as happened workforce, to ensure that it sets the appropriate number in the 1970s and 1980s after the last big series of of training places for district nurses to meet future building projects? capacity and capability service needs. As I mentioned earlier, Health Education England has in fact increased Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, we have seen the number of training places for district nurses by 7% some very exciting refurbishments and restorations of this year, to 431 places. our heritage buildings. It is precisely why the Government 277 Arts: Lottery Funding[10 JULY 2014] Arts: Lottery Funding 278 and arm’s-length bodies such as the Arts Council, the Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, my noble Heritage Lottery Fund and English Heritage have friend’s question is timely, because the Chancellor provided extensive funding towards cultural heritage, granted an extra £20 million to cathedrals around the including buildings. It is important that Arts Council country, mindful particularly of the part that they will England provides capital grants which can be spent on play in the commemorations of the First World War. I purchase, improvement and restoration of capital projects. endorse what my noble friend has said. The buildings What the noble Baroness said is absolutely right: the to which he referred are some of our most ancient last thing we want to do is to have an investment and treasures; they need to be helped to remain in good let it deteriorate. state.

Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD): My Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, Lords, additionality was one of the founding principles may we go back to the point in the original Question of the National Lottery. Another was that there should about the principle of additionality? I am sure that the be only one National Lottery. That is the not the Minister is aware of the Statement made by the Secretary situation today. We have the Health Lottery, which is a of State in the other place only a few days ago. He national lottery in all but name, and there is the new said: problem of gambling operators offering products that “The principle of additionality is very important and the masquerade as lotteries but are in fact bets. These distributors must adhere to it all times”.—[Official Report, Commons, damage the ability to raise funds for good causes such 3/7/14; col. 1057.] as the arts. What do the Government intend to do Given that, can the Minister explain to your Lordships’ about this? House why 102 companies now receiving grant in aid from Arts Council England, which in previous years Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My noble friend raises were entirely funded by grant in aid, are now to be issues about other lotteries—she mentioned the Health funded from the lottery? Lottery. The market is changing. The Gambling Commission is providing us with further advice on Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, this is an area how the markets are operating, which we will consider on which the Arts Council has been reflecting in before consulting later in the year. The changes in the particular, and of course it is required to report on lottery and gambling markets have made it clear to us adherence to the principle of additionality. One of the that any consultation on society lotteries needs to be key points is that lottery funding for the years 2012 to far more wide-ranging than was originally thought. 2015 has gone towards a specific purpose: touring, and working with children and young people. That is Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab): My Lords, if the why Arts Council England has announced that these principle of additionality is to mean what we all want significant elements—of touring and of specific it to mean in practice across the country, will the organisations working with children and young people— Minister talk to his friends at the Department for will be wholly funded through the lottery from 2015 Communities and Local Government? So long as to 2018. local authorities are so severely constrained in their ability to support the arts, it will not be possible to Lord Aberdare (CB): My Lords, following the report have the kind of thriving arts ecology across the whole by Darren Henley some years ago, the Government country that I know he wants and we all want. launched a national plan for music education. When will the Government announce the future funding for Lord Gardiner of Kimble: That is why I said in my that national plan, and how will they ensure its successful original Answer that is important that we have a delivery? mixed-funding arrangement. It serves us very well to have state funding, lottery funding and philanthropic Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, the Government and corporate sponsorship. The noble Lord is right: have committed £171 million over three years to 123 music local government has huge challenges, as does the hubs across England, to ensure that every child aged nation, about spending. Local government is still the five to 18 has the chance to learn a musical instrument largest investor in the arts, and I hope that it will and perform as part of ensembles and choirs. Because remain so. There are challenges, but there are enormous of those hubs, 500,000 children have been given the success stories where local authorities have recognised chance to learn a musical instrument for the first time. that arts and heritage are important for tourism and There is always more to be done, but a lot of effort is visitor numbers. There are many examples of cities going into recognising and then ensuring that there is and towns around the country, Hull and Liverpool fulfilment of the musical experience for young people among them, which are successful because of their and children. artistic investment. Baroness Benjamin (LD): My Lords, we are soon to Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, in thanking my see the 50th anniversary of the Notting Hill carnival—but, noble friend for his own personal commitment, may I sadly, we have just seen Arts Council funding cuts to ask him to assure the House that the places of worship the only carnival arts organisation that provides design, scheme, whereby grants are given to historic churches art and culture for children and gives them the opportunity and other places of worship on their intrinsic architectural to be exposed to creativity, and for their imagination and historical importance, will continue and not be to blossom. Can my noble friend tell the House what diminished? provision has been made to address this deficit? 279 Arts: Lottery Funding[LORDS] Communications Data and Interception 280

Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, obviously the has been used as evidence in 95% of all serious organised decisions that the Arts Council or any organisation crime cases handled by the Crown Prosecution Service. has to make are always difficult; they are full of It has played a significant role in the investigation of challenges. But Arts Council England is very clear many of the most serious crimes in recent times, that if an organisation does not receive funding, part including the Oxford and Rochdale child grooming of its advice service is to ensure that other sources of cases, the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman funding are considered and advised upon. and the murder of Rhys Jones. It can prove or disprove alibis; it can identify associations between potential criminals; and it can tie suspects and victims to a Business of the House crime scene. Timing of Debates I have talked before about the decline in our ability 11.37 am to obtain the communications data we need, which is caused by changes in the way people communicate Moved by Lord Hill of Oareford and the technology behind those forms of communication. That the debates on the Motions in the names of That is why I continue to support the measures in the Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Woolf set down draft communications data Bill. In addition to that for today shall each be limited to two and a half decline, we now face two significant and urgent problems hours. relating to both communications data and interception. The first is the recent judgment by the European Motion agreed. Court of Justice that calls into question the legal basis upon which we require communication service providers in the UK to retain communications data. The second Communications Data and Interception is the increasingly pressing need to put beyond doubt Statement the application of our laws on interception so that communication service providers have to comply with 11.37 am their legal obligations, irrespective of where they are based. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My Lords, I can tell the House today that the Government are with the leave of the House I will now repeat a introducing fast-track legislation—through the data Statement made this morning by my right honourable retention and investigatory powers Bill—to deal with friend Theresa May, the Home Secretary. The Statement those two problems. I deal first with communications is as follows. data, because we must respond to the ruling by the “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to European Court of Justice that the data retention make a Statement about the use of communications directive is invalid. The directive was the legal basis data and interception; the difficulties faced by the upon which the Governments of EU member states police, law enforcement agencies and the security and were required to compel communication service providers intelligence agencies in utilising those capabilities; and to retain certain communications data where they do the steps the Government plan to take to address not otherwise require it for their own business purposes. those difficulties. Indeed, the ruling provides us with such a problem precisely because very strong data protection laws Before I do so, I would like to make something very mean that, in the absence of a legal duty to retain clear. What I want to propose in my Statement today data, companies must delete data that is not required is a narrow and limited response to a set of specific beyond their strict business use. This means that, if we challenges we face. I am not proposing the introduction do not clarify the legal position, we risk losing access of the communications data Bill that was considered to all such communications data and, with it, the in draft by a Joint Committee of both Houses of ability to protect the public and keep our country safe. Parliament last year. I still believe that the measures contained within that Bill are necessary—and so does The ECJ ruling said that the data retention directive the Prime Minister—but there is no coalition consensus does not contain the necessary safeguards in relation for those proposals and we will have to return to them to access to the data, but it did not take into account at the general election. the stringent controls and safeguards provided by The House will know that communications data—the domestic laws—in particular, the UK’s communications ‘who, where, when and how’ of a communication but data access regime, which is governed primarily by the not its content—and interception, which provides the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. RIPA legal power to acquire the content of a communication, was, and remains, designed to comply with the European are vital for combating crime and fighting terrorism. Convention on Human Rights. It ensures that access Without them, we would be unable to bring criminals to communications data can take place only where it is and terrorists to justice, and we would not be able to necessary and proportionate for a specific investigation. keep the public safe. It therefore provides many of the safeguards that the European Court of Justice said were missing from the For example, the majority of the Security Service’s data retention directive. top priority counterterror investigations use interception capabilities in some form to identify, understand and This ECJ judgment clearly has implications not just disrupt the plots of terrorists. Communications data for the United Kingdom but also for other EU member has played a significant role in every Security Service states and we are in close contact with other European counterterrorism operation over the past decade. It Governments. Other Governments, such as Ireland 281 Communications Data and Interception[10 JULY 2014] Communications Data and Interception 282 and Denmark, implemented the data retention directive is crucial that we must have Royal Assent by Summer through primary legislation, which means that they Recess. The Government have therefore sought to have retained a clear legal basis for their data retention keep this Bill as short as possible. It is also subject to a policies, unless a separate, successful legal challenge to sunset clause that means the legislation ceases to have their legislation is made. The UK does not have that effect from the end of 2016. This means that the Bill luxury, because here the data retention directive was solves the immediate problems at hand and gives us implemented through secondary legislation. While we enough time to review not just the full powers and are confident that our regulations remain in force, the capabilities we need, but also the way in which those Government must act now to remove any doubt about powers and capabilities are regulated, before Parliament their legal basis and to give effect to the ECJ judgment. can consider new and more wide-ranging legislation The legislation I am publishing today—and the draft after the general election. regulations that accompany it—will not only do this, they will enhance the UK’s existing legal safeguards It is right that we must balance the need to prevent and in so doing it will address the criticism of the criminal exploitation of communications networks with European Court. safeguards to protect ordinary citizens from intrusions upon their privacy. That is why, alongside the legislation I want to be clear, though, that this legislation will I am publishing today, the Government will also introduce merely maintain the status quo. It will not tackle the a package of measures to reassure the public that their wider problem of declining communications data rights to security and privacy are equally protected. capability, to which we must return in the next Parliament. But it will ensure, for now at least, that the police and We will reduce the number of public authorities other law enforcement agencies can investigate some able to access communications data. We will publish of the criminality that is planned and takes place an annual transparency report giving as much detail online. Without this legislation, we face the very prospect as possible—within obvious parameters—about the of losing access to this data overnight, with the use of these sensitive powers. We will appoint a senior consequence that police investigations will suddenly diplomat to lead discussions with other Governments go dark and criminals will escape justice. We cannot to consider how we share data for law enforcement allow this to happen. and intelligence purposes. We will establish a privacy I want to turn now to interception because there is and civil liberties board, based on the US model. This growing uncertainty among communication service will build on the role of the independent reviewer of providers about our interception powers. With technology terrorism legislation, and the board will consider the developing rapidly and the way in which we communicate balance between security and privacy and liberty in changing all the time, the communication service providers the full context of the threat we face from terrorism. that serve the UK but are based overseas need legal And we will review the interception and communications clarity about what we can access. The House will data powers we need, as well as the way in which those understand that I cannot comment in detail on our powers and capabilities are regulated, in the full context operational capabilities when it comes to intercept, of the threats we face. The Government are discussing but I have briefed the Opposition on Privy Council in the usual channels the precise form this review terms and members of the Intelligence and Security might take, but I hope that an initial report will be Committee have heard first hand from the security published before the election. and intelligence agencies and it is clear that we have reached a dangerous tipping point. We need to make I have said many times before that it is not possible sure that major communication service providers to debate the correct balance between security and co-operate with the UK’s security and intelligence and privacy—and, more specifically, the rights and wrongs law enforcement agencies when they need access to of powers and capabilities such as access to suspects’ communications. This would result immediately communications data and interception—without in a major loss of the powers and capabilities that are understanding the threats we face as a country. Those used every day to counter the threats we face from threats remain considerable. They include the threat terrorists and organised criminals. from terrorism—from overseas and from here in the UK—but also the threat from industrial, military and The Bill I am publishing today will therefore put state espionage practised by other states and foreign beyond doubt the fact that the existing legal framework, businesses; the threat from organised criminal gangs; which requires companies to co-operate with UK law and the threat from all sorts of criminals whose work enforcement and intelligence agencies, also extends to is made easier by cyber technology. companies that are based overseas but provide services to people here in the UK. I will make copies of the In the face of such a diverse range of threats, the draft Bill available to the Vote Office and the House Government would be negligent if they did not make Library. I will also make available in the Library the sure that the people and the organisations that keep us regulatory impact assessments and the draft regulations safe—the police, other law enforcement agencies and to be made under the Bill, in order to allow the the security and intelligence agencies—have the legal opportunity for the House to scrutinise these proposals powers to utilise the capabilities they need. They are in full. clear that we need to act immediately. If we do not, The parliamentary timetable for this legislation is criminals and terrorists will go about their work inevitably very tight. My right honourable friend the unimpeded, and innocent lives will be lost. That is why Leader of the House has just provided details of the I commend this Statement, and this Bill, to the House”. prospective timetable for the Bill’s consideration but it My Lords, that concludes the Statement. 283 Communications Data and Interception[LORDS] Communications Data and Interception 284

11.53 am specifically the Constitution Committee—will have the opportunity to do so within the timetable, and will Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I am discussions take place regarding this? grateful to the Minister for early notification of the Statement, and for providing a copy of it beforehand. Another matter the Constitution Committee raised Before I refer to the content of the Bill, I flag up our was regarding post-legislative review. I ask that the disappointment regarding the timetabling. We understand GovernmentconsiderusingtheInterceptionCommissioner and appreciate the necessity of this legislation and the to review this on a six-monthly basis and report back to time imperative that now exists, as the noble Lord Ministers and your Lordships’ House. explained. But why is it being brought forward now as Noble Lords will be aware that we have called for a fast-track legislation? As he said in the Statement, the review of RIPA, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers decision of the ECJ was taken in April. We accept that Act 2000. The shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, it takes some time to digest and analyse the implications called for this back in the speech she made in March. of such decisions and to prepare legislation, but it As a noble Lord commented in our discussions this would have been preferable to bring this legislation week on new legislation to tackle cybercrime, technology forward earlier. moves very quickly and criminals move very quickly. Over the past weeks we have been discussing the Our legislation has to keep pace with that. RIPA is Serious Crime Bill, and the noble Lord is aware that now 14 years old and needs to be brought up to date. we support measures in the Bill but have tabled We also need that review to ensure that it is used amendments that would strengthen and improve it appropriately.Will the Minister confirm that the reference where we feel that the provisions are okay but too in the Statement to reviewing, weak. So why were these measures announced today “the interception and data powers we need”, not brought forward alongside that Bill, given that does in fact refer to RIPA and that a review will take the fast-track Bill he has announced strikes right at place? Can he tell us if any decision has been made on the heart of serious and organised crime and who would undertake such a review and what resources counterterrorism? and expertise will be made available for that? The data of which this Bill will ensure temporary Alongside a review of RIPA, we have also asked for retention are used in 95% of serious and organised an overhaul of the system of independent oversight crime investigations, counterterrorism investigations commissioners, as outlined in the shadow Home and online child abuse investigations, so we do not Secretary’s speech in March. I ask the Minister to doubt the necessity of their use. In considering our ensure that these reforms are considered as part of the response to this fast-track legislation, we have focused review. Also, it would be helpful to have a wider public on the principle that such crime and counterterrorism debate on this whole range of issues. investigations must not be compromised. We have a We believe that this legislation is urgent, but it is duty to maintain the security of our citizens. We also equally important that we have further scrutiny of the recognise that this Bill does not go further than existing whole framework. I hope noble Lords will agree that legislation, as the noble Lord outlined, but maintains longer-term reforms are needed. existing capabilities. We also have to ensure that individual privacy is 11.58 am protected. We therefore considered it crucial that there Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, once again I should be safeguards, including a sunset clause and a thank the noble Baroness for her support for the major review of the legal framework that governs legislation. I am very happy to reassure her on the surveillance. Will the Minister confirm that what we various aspects that she quite legitimately raised. It are talking about here does not in any way include the has of course not been possible to talk about this content of communications, merely that such matter in public until today. Noble Lords will understand communications have taken place? why that is the case, but the House will have the When our Constitution Committee reported on opportunity to consider the legislation. I expect that constitutional implications and safeguards for fast-track will be next week, but that will be for the usual legislation, it set out certain safeguards that Ministers channels to decide and announcements will be made. must address in Statements to your Lordships’ House. The noble Baroness asked why we are having fast-track First, Ministers must explain why fast track is necessary. legislation—after all, the judgment was on 8 April. I I take that to mean not just the immediate necessity can understand her concern. It is not easy to deal but, as I have already asked, why this was not brought with things in fast-track legislation. On the other forward earlier. It is also very clear that there should hand, I think she will understand that this is a be a presumption of a sunset clause; that is, in effect, difficult and sensitive area of policy. We did not want that any fast-track legislation should be temporary to get mired down in the communications data Bill, as with an expiry date. We welcome the sunset clause in the Joint Committee originally considered. We wanted this Bill. It is essential that a date is set down in statute to ensure that the measures that we were presenting, when the legislation will expire, and it must be reviewed and which we are presenting in the Bill today, were during that period. sufficient to deal with the immediate problem and no The Constitution Committee recommended this more. We were not looking to extend any powers; we for any fast-track legislation. Another issue it raises is were just seeking to restore the situation ex ante the that parliamentary committees should be given the judgment. We wanted to ensure that there was proper opportunity to scrutinise the legislation. Are arrangements consideration, to work with the law enforcement agencies being made to ensure that the relevant committees—and and the data providers on how we dealt with this 285 Communications Data and Interception[10 JULY 2014] Communications Data and Interception 286 problem in legislation, and to give proper effect to the not mean the question to be frivolous—we are proposing judgment that had been made by the European Court to talk to the Americans, but have they agreed to talk of Justice. to us? I am pleased that the noble Baroness has welcomed the sunset clause. We accept that this is, if I might use Lord Taylor of Holbeach: We have good discussions the expression, a puncture repair job; it is not equipping with all our allies and I can assure the noble Baroness data protection with a new tyre so that it can corner that I have no fear in that regard. I understand what more suitably for the road conditions of the future. she is saying about civil liberties and much of the Future-proofing has to await new legislation. Meanwhile, discussions about this have centred on ways in which we are dealing with the problem that would face us if we can enhance privacy protection. The noble Baroness we did not act now. While I understand that the House is quite right; we have not had time to consult. Letters will want to scrutinise in detail what we are doing, I will be going to a large number of people and I know hope that we will have its support in taking the Bill that the list includes a number of the best-known civil through. liberties groups. As far as future business is concerned, The noble Baroness asked what contact there had and the implementation of the powers in the Bill, they been with the chairmen of the Constitution Committee will be parties to the discussion in the usual way. I will and the Delegated Powers Committee. Some of the do my best to ensure that the noble Baroness is also constitutional issues are addressed in the Explanatory kept informed. Memorandum that is being published today, but I have tried to ring the chairman of the Constitution Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I am very Committee; unfortunately, though, he was not available. supportive of what the Government are doing. I think I also tried to ring the chairman of the Delegated it is absolutely appropriate, subject to the various Powers Committee but unfortunately she was not available caveats that my noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon either. However, both are Members of this House and raised. There is no doubt whatever, as the Minister I have left messages. I shall try to talk to them over the said, that this has ensured in the past our security, our weekend, as indeed I am intending to do with other ability to tackle organised crime and our ability to get noble Lords who are interested. Various Select Committee murderers, paedophiles and the like. There is no doubt chairmen in the House of Commons have been briefed whatever about that, and it was something that was by the Prime Minister. going to be lost. But is it not a disgrace that we find The data retention provisions of the Bill relate to ourselves in this position? The communications data comms data. However, I must make clear that companies Bill was looked at by a Joint Committee of the House. must provide the content of the communication when It made a mass of suggestions as to how it should be served with a warrant issued by the Secretary of State. amended to protect privacy and civil liberties. All of The powers laid out in the Bill do not change anything those measures were taken in and agreed, and the Bill in that regard. redrafted. I think that the Liberal Democrats should be ashamed of the fact that they did not agree then to There were indications in the Statement that RIPA go forward with the Bill. If it had gone forward, we and its whole relationship with future legislation is a would not now be rushing through this legislation. matter for review. If we are to inform a new Bill after Does the Minister agree? the election, we will need to study where we are at present. The role of the independent terrorism legislation reviewer in this matter is clear, and David Anderson is Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Of course I do not agree. likely to be involved in a number of discussions specifically To be frank, I am a great believer in the partnership aimed at ensuring not only that this legislation is that the coalition represents. I have given an indication achieving its objective but that any future legislation today in repeating the Statement that it is important to or arrangements regarding privacy are going to be see this as a partnership between protecting individual effective. liberty and at the same time making sure that we have the capability. I am so grateful to the noble Lord for his support in that regard. I am sure he would not 12.03 pm expect me to go into detail as to why we have not Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, I am grateful to progressed. We said in the Statement that we recognised the Minister for contacting me earlier this morning. that there was not enough unity of purpose across the Obviously, bringing this stop-gap legislation in such a coalition to continue with the communications data hurry to both Houses has been a difficult process, and Bill. I make no apology for that. This will obviously be the opportunities for consultation have therefore been discussed at the time of the general election and limited. There are very strong and divided views on hopefully afterwards we will be able to address the these issues, including among human rights and civil issue. liberties groups. I wonder whether the Minister can reassure the House that there will be consultation with Lord Lloyd of Berwick (CB): My Lords, I hope that those groups on regulations and guidance, if there is the noble Lord will recall that a committee of privy to be any, as well as their involvement in the review of counsellors was set up some years ago to consider the RIPA. admission of the intercept as evidence in terrorist and I welcome what was described as a package of criminal cases. Does he agree that the intercept, the pro-civil liberties measures mentioned in the Statement. actual words spoken, provides by far the strongest Will the Minister tell the House whether they will be basis on which to convict terrorists and other serious introduced to the same swift timetable? Also—I do criminals—far better than just the fact that a 287 Communications Data and Interception[LORDS] Communications Data and Interception 288

[LORD LLOYD OF BERWICK] powers that we thought existed to compel private communication took place? When does he think that sector organisations to retain communications data, is the Chilcot committee, which is still considering this not the unfortunate position in which the Government matter, is going to report? now find themselves a result of their tendency—perhaps more than a tendency; sometimes it looks like a default Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am not in a option—always to implement European directives position to answer that particular question. It may be whenever they can by means of secondary rather than beyond the gift of anyone to answer it at this stage. primary legislation? It may the tendency of every The noble and learned Lord makes a very interesting bureaucracy, and perhaps every Minister, to try to point which I am sure will be considered, but it is not minimise the degree of democratic transparency and part and parcel of this legislation, which is very narrow parliamentary scrutiny through which they have to go in what it is seeking to achieve. We are not looking to to get legislation on the statute book. However, in the extend the powers that we currently have available. light of experience, do the Government not agree that they have been getting the balance wrong compared to Lord King of Bridgwater (Con): My Lords, to save other countries—the Minister cited the Irish and Danish the Minister embarrassment I do not expect him to examples—and that that balance needs to be looked at reply to this point; I fully agree with the previous again? comment of the noble Lord, Lord West, about the failure to move forward with the previous Bill. Having Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Well, we are now coming said that, my noble friend will be aware that both forward with primary legislation; I hope that it meets Houses of Parliament are very leery indeed about with the noble Lord’s approval. I understand his point emergency legislation, and are rightly suspicious of it. exactly, but we are dealing with that problem now. It It is not just the cynics who say that they are not has been the practice of successive Governments to totally reassured when all parties are in agreement on deal with European directives in this fashion. Perhaps emergency legislation, which has not always had a in some areas it may pay us to make exceptions to that, happy history. particularly if we think that there are matters that Having said that, nobody could underestimate the really ought to be brought to the attention of the importance of the matters that the Minister has discussed House through primary legislation. and of what the data have meant to the defence of this country. If ever there was a time not to reduce our Lord Armstrong of Ilminster (CB): My Lords, I was defences, this must be it. Can the Minister confirm a member of the Joint Committee which scrutinised again that this represents no change in the present the draft communications data Bill. I am sure that all situation—that there is no advance in the intrusions members of that committee would attach great importance on the citizen; it is a matter of data, not the content of to restoring the position that we thought we were in messages? It is the “who, when and where” that are so before this. For that reason, I, and I think many vital in the pursuit of this. colleagues on the Cross Benches, will support the Bill. The most important thing is that the provisions The sunset clause which has been described will make also contain the surprisingly short sunset clause, as I it necessary to review communications data legislation understand it, of May 2015— very early in the new Parliament. I hope that the scrutiny given to it will then bear fruit because I think Noble Lords: 2016. the result was a good Bill which balanced the essential needs of civil liberty and privacy against the Government’s Lord King of Bridgwater: That is still, for the matters first duty to protect the security and safety of the which must be discussed, a short sunset clause. It is citizen. absolutely right that that is there, and I welcome it. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, the noble Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am most grateful to my Lord, Lord Armstrong, speaks from a great deal of noble friend. As a former chairman of the Intelligence experience in this area. I welcome his support. I agree and Security Select Committee, I know that he—like that this is a matter which will have to be addressed the noble Lord, Lord West, from his ministerial role—can very quickly by an incoming Government. This is a see inside this problem. I expect and want the House live issue, as is properly demonstrated by the debate we to scrutinise this legislation, because it is right and are having now. proper that we do so. My noble friend is right also to point to the fact Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, that the sunset clause allows an incoming Government would we be in this predicament if we were not only 18 months to put a new communications data Bill members of the European Union and therefore on the table if they choose to do so. If I were part of subservient to the judgments of the Luxembourg Court? any such Government I would be exhorting prompt Surely these matters should be for our Government action in that area. Clearly, without the legislation and Parliament and for international collaboration that we are now hoping to bring forward, we place under their control. ourselves in an extraordinarily difficult position. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: No, my Lords, I do not Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My Lords, in all the see the sequitur in that at all. It is right and proper that unfortunate circumstances, the Government were quite we should make sure that the legal framework under right to respond to the ECJ decision as they have. which we operate is established in Parliament. That is However, on the first part of the Statement on the what we are doing. The way in which we adapt to 289 Communications Data and Interception[10 JULY 2014] Communications Data and Interception 290 changed circumstances is a healthy arrangement. the background against which the Bill will be presented Regardless of the European Court of Justice’s decision, to the House of Commons and to your Lordships’ we would need to address some of the issues that this House. In such circumstances, it was important that Bill deals with. We are right to be dealing with it as the Government got their own position right first. soon as we possibly can. Having done that, we are very grateful for the scrutiny and advice that we will receive from the Intelligence Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, when I was in and Security Committee. another place I conducted an inquiry into organised crime in Northern Ireland and I became aware of how crucial cross-border collaboration was in that context. Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): My Lords, I wholeheartedly Will there be full discussions with the Government of support what has been said concerning the inhibition the Republic of Ireland to ensure that our fight against which now exists on the use of vital evidence by way crime in that part of the United Kingdom can continue of intercept, which makes it impossible for what would unabated? have otherwise been crucially important prosecutions to succeed. I well appreciate that there are two sides Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Yes. One of the factors to the argument and I appreciate that final advice which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and I welcome to Parliament on this matter is still awaited, but will is that, in the Serious Crime Bill, there is a whole series the noble Lord accept that in many common-law of measures attaching to Northern Ireland which have countries the rule is different? It is left to the good support. We hope that these will enable the two law sense of the prosecution whether to rely on such enforcement agencies on that island to work closely evidence, bearing very much in mind the sensitivity together in the interests of protecting the people of of the situation in the public interest. It does not that island. seem beyond the bounds of possibility that the United Kingdom is coming under very severe pressure from Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab): My Lords, I associate very powerful allies in this particular matter, to her myself with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord own detriment. West, and the noble Lord, Lord King, whom I succeeded as chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I do not want to go into Those of us who have had direct experience of the detail today on the noble Lord’s points. However, I benefits of this kind of information will very much will examine what he said, because he is talking about support what the Government are doing. Perhaps I procedures rather than the matter that the Bill deals may ask the Minister a practical question about data with—how we handle this in legal process. If the noble retention. By acknowledging that new legislation is Lord will allow me, I will write to him in response to required, can we assume that there is nothing that his question. I am grateful to him for raising it. threatens the use of existing data that are held? Will the Minister continue to use examples in the way that he did today in repeating the Statement so that people Lord Marlesford (Con): Given the point that the outside who have concerns about the use of data noble Lord, Lord Butler, has just made, and of course recognise the productive way in which they can be given the total paramountcy of the defence of the used in important criminal cases? realm, will the Minister assure us that if the scrutiny of the Bill were to reveal defects in the legislation—which, Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Yes. I think that sometimes after all, is what scrutiny is about—the Bill would be the arguments become focused on particular issues. I amendable, notwithstanding the parliamentary timetable agree with the noble Baroness. I know that she speaks for the Recess? from experience and I am grateful for her support. There is an important communications exercise in making sure that people realise why we are involved in Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, the passage of the fight against crime and the fight against sexual the Bill contains all the normal phases of discussion exploitation. These are all factors in our need to have so it would be for Parliament to decide whether it this capability. I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s needed to change the Bill. I hope that it will not be a support. political football, with people trying to make further points about what might have been and what could Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, I know be, and all the rest. I do not think that the House is that the Intelligence and Security Committee, of which in the mood for that. All the comments that have I am a member, will now look at this legislation very been made have made it clear to me that, in general, urgently, as is necessary. However, that committee has the Bill correctly addresses the issue and we will look to deal all the time with highly classified matters. Does at the wording and make sure that we have got it the Minister agree that it would have made the task of right. That is what scrutiny is for and that is what we the committee easier, and its task of advising the two are here for. I hope that we will take advantage of that Houses easier, if the Government had consulted the opportunity. I also hope to brief noble Lords on committee at an earlier stage? Monday by party group—arrangements are in place for those briefings—because I thought it would be Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Had that been possible, helpful if we had an opportunity to talk about these it might have been done. Clearly, the Bill is a things before we consider the Bill and before it goes to complicated piece of legislation and getting it right the House of Commons, which will consider it early has not been easy. I think the noble Lord will understand next week. 291 Arrangement of Business[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 292

Arrangement of Business Joseph Nye once described as the exercise of soft Announcement power. It sits comfortably with the debate that will follow in the name of my noble and learned friend 12.24 pm Lord Woolf, which draws attention to the role our legal institutions play in promoting Britain’s reputation Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con): My Lords, with and way of life worldwide. I am grateful to all noble the leave of the House, it may be helpful if I make a Lords who will participate, many of whom bring a brief business statement to explain how it is envisaged lifetime of experience and knowledge. I also thank the that this House might consider the data retention and noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, the Minister who will investigatory powers Bill. reply. The House of Lords Library also deserves our The House of Commons is due to take all stages of thanks for the excellent note it has prepared for today’s the Bill next Tuesday, 15 July. We will therefore receive debate. the Bill at the end of their proceedings on Tuesday and It hardly needs saying that all of our speeches will the Bill will be printed overnight. Following discussions be held against a backdrop in the Middle East of the in the usual channels, we have agreed to propose that exercise of a different kind of power, characterised by the House take Second Reading of the Bill next visceral hatred and unspeakable violence. They are Wednesday, 16 July, and Committee and remaining being held in a climate in which fragile peace and stages of the Bill the following day, Thursday 17 July. seedling democracies, from the Sea to the , Members will be able to table amendments to the are at daily risk. That is to say nothing of global Bill at any time from next Wednesday and the Legislation violation of human rights, from North Korea to , Office has kindly agreed to offer drafting advice to from Nigeria to . Members who require it as soon as the text of the Bill More than 30 years ago as a young Member of the has been published by the House of Commons. A House of Commons travelling behind the iron curtain, revised edition of forthcoming business, setting out and in 1981 to , Nepal and China, I first began to these arrangements as well as the knock-on effect on fully understand the importance of the BBC World other business, will be published imminently—indeed, Service and the British Council as agents for change. I expect almost as soon as I resume my seat. There will The BBC World Service started life in 1932 as the BBC be a speakers list for Second Reading, again, opened Empire Service, with Sir John Reith—later Lord Reith— more or less as I sit down today. warning, There are some knock-on effects; it may be convenient “don’t expect too much in the early days … The programmes will if I refer to one in particular, because I see the noble neither be very interesting nor very good”. Lord, Lord Mitchell, in his place. Next Thursday we More than 80 years later, with a global audience last had anticipated a Labour debate day. There are two month of 265 million people and transmitting in debates set down for that day, the first to be led by the English and 27 other languages, there is no doubt that noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, and the the World Service has surpassed all of Lord Reith’s second by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell. It has been modest expectations. Often, it has been the only lifeline agreed in usual channels that those two debates will be to honest reporting of news and current affairs. Mikhail delayed. Another date will be found that is convenient Gorbachev said that he listened to the BBC’s for those debates to take place. We will negotiate on transmissions. However, both organisations—the British that matter. The procedure at the moment is that those Council and the World Service—promote the UK’s speakers lists have been frozen as we are now in the economic interests too. In one survey of international process of changing next Thursday’s business. Those business leaders in America, India and Australia, two- who have already signed up to speak will be informed. thirds said that the BBC was the main way in which Indeed, there are currently only five speakers signed they found out about the United Kingdom. Hence, the up for the first and four for the second, so I hope that Motion talks about promoting our values and our does not inconvenience too many people. interests. The approach I have set out today, outlined by the During the past 10 years, as chairman of the All-Party Minister, has the support of the usual channels. I hope Parliamentary Group on North Korea and during the whole House will support that next week. visits to remote parts of Africa and Burma, my appreciation of the BBC World Service and the British BBC World Service and British Council Council has grown into deep admiration, not least for Motion to Take Note courageous BBC journalists, such as its chief international correspondent Lyse Doucet and the head of the BBC’s 12.27 pm Burma service Tin Htar Swe, who were both recently honoured in the Birthday Honours List. Moved by Lord Alton of Liverpool Courage, however, comes at a price. Let us consider To move that this House takes note of the role of the 90 journalists killed since the start of the Syrian the BBC World Service and the British Council in conflict three years ago, with scores of others kidnapped, promoting British values and interests worldwide. or the imprisonment of journalists in , including Peter Greste, the former BBC journalist. James Harding, Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, I begin by the BBC’s director of news, said that these jailings thanking my noble friends on the Cross Benches for were an, selecting this Motion for debate today. It draws attention “act of intimidation against all journalists”. to the role of the BBC World Service and the British Getting the news out and getting the news in are Council in promoting British values, part of what therefore two sides of one coin. 293 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 294

In Burma, Aung San Suu Kyi says that World to broadcast, and diminish our ability to use the Service transmissions reach more than 80% of people. service to pursue foreign policy objectives. The example When I visited her in March last year, she told me that of the BBC World News offers salutary lessons. Conceived the World Service had been a game-changer. Of course, as the sister television arm of the World Service, this she also listened to the World Service during her many continuous news channel has 74 million viewers each years of detention, describing it as a lifeline. Believing week in 200 countries, and powerfully projects British passionately in the power of ideas, she used her Nobel values worldwide. Unlike radio, BBC World News is Peace Prize money to establish her own Democratic owned and operated by a commercial entity, BBC Voice of Burma radio service. Global News Ltd, and relies entirely on subscription, At the World Service’s 80th anniversary advertising and sponsorship deals to survive. commemoration held in December 2012 at St Martin- The failure of the current business plan means that in-the-Fields, I was particularly struck by the words of on the 17th of this month BBC World News is to a young Ukrainian woman, who described how her announce what its managers are calling “significant parents had illegally concealed a radio beneath their savings”—that is, cuts. These will come on top of year floorboards and would bring it out clandestinely to 3 cuts to BBC News under the programme Delivering listen to the news from London. She said that the Quality First, which since 2010 has seen spending on proudest day of her parents’ lives was when she told news cut by 20% and the loss of 2,000 jobs in the BBC. them that she had secured a job at Bush House, where The danger of the commercial imperative alone is that the BBC World Service was located from 1940 until the BBC becomes dependent on it and, instead of 2012. Not without significance, the audience of the seeing such deals as useful, it sees them as additional Ukrainian service has tripled in the past 12 months. A resource. It cannot be in the British interest for the long-serving BBC foreign correspondent, Allan Little, BBC’s presence in the global media landscape to be recalls an elderly Jewish man in Paris who agreed to increasingly subject to the vagaries of the ups and give him an interview because, as a boy in hiding in downs of the advertising market. It is bad for Britain’s wartime Poland, the BBC was the only way he knew to business needs, and it is bad for the business of what keep on hoping. He also recalls the old independence Britain is all about. I hope that the Minister will do fighter in Zimbabwe who hated the British yet, when her best to allay those fears today. he wanted to know what was happening in the world, In considering commercial factors versus our Article 19 listened in secret. He said, “We listened to you and we obligation under the 1948 declaration on human rights trusted you”. to take no notice of frontiers but to communicate Like many, Little regards the trust placed in the information worldwide, the Minister may want to World Service and the BBC, fiercely guarded across comment on the example of North Korea, which was the world and over generations, as a kind of covenant. recently listed by the United Nations as a “country Credibility and authority—what Peter Horrocks, the without parallel” and a perpetrator of human rights World Service director, calls “radical impartiality”—marks abuses. In the view of the author of the report, Mr Justice out the BBC from its competition in increasingly Michael Kirby, BBC World Service broadcasts to the crowded airwaves and with the phenomenal growth of Korean peninsula would be a welcome contribution to the internet. However, at a meeting held here just two breaking the information blockade that imprisons North nights ago, Mr Horrocks also pointed out that a Korea. Professor Andrei Lankov states in his book broadcaster such as Al-Jazeera probably has a budget The Real North Korea: two to three times bigger than that of BBC News. If “The only long-term solution … is to increase North Korea’s the BBC World Service is not to decline, I hope that awareness of the outside world”. the Minister will tell us that comparative resources The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, will say more on will form part of the review of the BBC charter this subject when she makes her speech, and we will scheduled for next year. I hope that the Minister will return to it in a Question for Short Debate in a few also say something about the current ambiguity in the days. BBC World Service’s lines of accountability and its Staying with North Korea for a moment, I particularly mandate. welcome the British Council’s English language work On 1 April this year, a great and almost unremarked there, which I have seen first hand. I also welcome the on change occurred when the Foreign Office ceased to work of the British Council in Burma. During my fund the World Service. From now on, the £245 million 2013 visit, I gave a lecture at the British Council bill will be borne by the licence fee payer. In January library in Rangoon. I am told that the British Council the House of Commons Select Committee which looked receives more than 200,000 Burmese visitors to its at this question voiced strong opposition to the plans sites in Rangoon and Mandalay each year. The libraries outlined by the BBC Trust for wider commercialisation in Burma have more than 10,000 members and there is at the World Service. Its March 2014 report, The a network of 19 remote learning centres across the Future of the BBC World Service, outlined concerns country. The British Council’s Facebook page has about the impact of changes in the funding of the 340,000 “likes”—almost a quarter of the total internet World Service. users in the country. Although the committee welcomed budget increases, The British Council was established in 1934 and it urged the BBC to announce detailed future funding incorporated by royal charter in 1940. It has 70 British allocations to allow the World Service to plan for the Council teaching centres in 53 countries. It taught longer term. Many of us share the Select Committee’s more than 1 million class hours to 300,000 learners in apprehension that further commercialisation will both one recent year, and it describes itself as, overinfluence the BBC’s decisions on where and what “the world’s largest English-language teaching organisation”. 295 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 296

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] 12.42 pm I know that other noble Lords will speak more about its work, but let me give the example of Project English, Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab): My Lords, which has benefited more than 27 million learners in the number of speakers in the debate is testament to India already. There is the YoungArab Voices initiative the huge respect in which both the World Service and that has helped more than 25,000 young Egyptians, the British Council are held in this House. I want to Tunisians and Jordanians. But in 2010-11 the FCO focus on the role of the British Council as part of the grant was 27% of the British Council’s income. In fabric that underpins the UK’s foreign policy, and our 2013-14 that grant is forecast to be less than 20% of soft power. There are friends of the UK around the total income and the proportion is projected to decrease, world for whom the first step towards engaging with reaching 16% of total income by 2015-16. our country was sitting in the library of the British Council office in their home city. Last month, the Prime Minister said that British I have had a long connection with the British Council values are, and was once one of its trustees. Since that time, the “a belief in freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and landscape in which the British Council operates has social responsibility, respecting and upholding the rule of law”. changed, and the council has changed, too. It is not But he went on to say that these values do not come widely known that the council now draws just 20% of from thin air, and resources do not come from thin air its income from government, and as the noble Lord, either. We must be prepared to see the value of these Lord Alton, has said, that is set to fall further. The amazing instruments of soft power and ensure that council exists to provide a public benefit. It has they are adequately resourced. Our military response evolved to become a very significant social enterprise to global threats and new forms of terror will always with a turnover of nearly £1 billion, but it operates require hard power, of course, but we are disproportionate in an increasingly commercial and competitive in spending hundreds of times more on hard power environment. Its bridge-building work between the than on soft power. Combining the two, what Hillary UK’s cultural and education sectors, and those Clinton has described as “smart power”, should be overseas, is funded by delivering commercial services. part of our approach. That is a view which was put by I have no doubt that this social enterprise model has the House of Lords Select Committee on Soft Power created some challenges for the council, although I am and the UK’s Influence in its March 2014 report glad to say that it continues to grow, to provide entitled Persuasion and Power in the Modern World.It indispensable services and, most of all, to provide a said that: network of well informed staff around the world. It is an exemplar of an entrepreneurial public service “The ‘reach’ of the BBC and the British Council is immense, model and, in that context, offers excellent value to and this certainly adds to their ability to enhance the UK’s soft taxpayers. power”. I have seen this in the context of universities. The Before I conclude, I highlight for noble Lords a council’s network of international offices is envied by particular work by a notable champion of soft power, many of our competitors. It has the ability to provide the former US ambassador to Hungary, Mark Palmer, market intelligence and to anticipate opportunities in who died a year ago. I commend his book Breaking the countries where links are not well established. These Real Axis of Evil: How to Oust the World’s Last are functions that we should protect and support, and Dictators by 2025. We have just 10 years left to meet I hope that the Minister will agree that the Government the deadline he set, and I believe that the BBC World should continue to fund them. There is inevitably a Service and the British Council have a crucial role to tension between its cultural relations role on the one play in achieving that. I pay tribute to Mark Palmer, hand, and on the other the need to provide services for and I believe that we in this country could learn much which universities are willing to pay. I believe that the from his ideas. We can also learn from those put council is well aware of this and is sensitive to it. forward by the British Academy, which has said in a report that: When I was chief executive of Universities UK, I created a small international and Europe unit. I am “UK foreign policy is too often conducted in a compartmentalised delighted to learn that this has grown to be a significant manner, with the would-be benefits of soft power either judged to organisation, delivering millions of pounds’ worth of be outweighed by security concerns, or simply never taken into account”. benefits by identifying opportunities, making links, influencing policy and negotiating collective agreements Soft power is, as the report concludes, around the world. The council should be applauded “likely to become more important in international relations over for the way in which it has adapted to this changed the coming years. UK governments can help themselves simply by landscape. It has recognised that it can be most effective recognising this, and by providing enough resources for the by working in partnership with Universities UK’s development and maintenance of its long-term assets”. international unit and with parts of government pursuing In moving this Motion, I ask the Minister what steps opportunities overseas, such as the UKTI education Her Majesty’s Government are taking to strengthen unit. I hope that the Minister will agree that it is the deployment of soft power, how we are going to important to ensure that those sources of support are combine soft power with hard power, and to affirm, as well articulated, and work in complementary ways I hope she will, our continuing belief on all sides of rather than creating confusion and duplication. the House that the BBC World Service and the British I like the fact that the British Council has been Council are indispensable in promoting British values working closely with the international unit of Universities and interests throughout the world. UK on an advisory service to help universities develop 297 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 298 the rapidly growing area of transnational education. I goes back to the Second World War. Penelope Fitzgerald, like the fact that the council is working alongside in her wonderful novel set in Broadcasting House, Research Councils UK, the national academies, the writes that the BBC was, international unit and a range of other bodies to “dedicated to the strangest project of the war … that is, telling the deliver aspects of the Government’s newly announced truth”. Newton Fund, which supports research links with Over and over again we see people turn to it in times of 15 emerging powers around the world. crisis. Noble Lords may remember a photograph taken Yes, the world has changed since the creation of the at the beginning of the Arab spring at a demonstration British Council. Yet it remains an important part of in , of a young man holding up a placard with the UK’s effort to promote strong and lasting relationships “Thank you BBC” written in English. internationally, including through education links. Reduced Charter renewal is upon us. I hope that my noble funding has necessitated changes in strategy, yet it has friend the Minister will agree that the BBC, funded by picked its way sensitively and effectively through this the licence fee, should be protected and celebrated. We increasingly complicated terrain. It is a hugely valuable on these Benches support the BBC taking over asset to the UK. We should be proud of it, and we responsibility for the World Service from the Foreign should continue to support it. Office, but the Minister will know that World Service funding has at this point been settled for only one 12.46 pm year. Does she not agree that this makes important long-term planning difficult? I hope that she and the Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD): My FCO will help in the charter process to ensure that the Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for this future of the World Service is not diminished. debate. I speak on culture and media matters from these Benches, and I am an avid believer in the importance 12.50 pm of the part played by both the BBC and the British Council in binding our nation together and defining Lord Williams of Baglan (CB): My Lords, I welcome us in the eyes of other nations. Yet their role and this debate on two renowned and much loved British influence goes further, as was mentioned by the noble institutions whose impact on the globe during the past Lord, Lord Alton. They are also key to the UK’s century has been immense. We as Members of this successful pursuit of soft power, defined in the very House, and, indeed, the British people, can take great good recent report of a House of Lords Select pride in what they have done to promote British values Committee as, of decency, fairness and respect. Both the council and “the ability to affect others to obtain the outcomes one wants the World Service have ensured a lasting British impact through attraction rather than coercion”. and influence in all corners of the globe. The pursuit of soft power is essential to UK For reasons of time, and to reflect my own personal diplomacy—and prosperity—in the 21st century. I experience, I will concentrate my remarks on the BBC declare an interest: I am the Prime Minister’s trade World Service. I declare an interest as a trustee of the envoy to Mexico, and in this capacity I have seen at BBC with responsibilities for the World Service. I first hand how cultural diplomacy is a major tool in should also note that I worked for eight years as a pursuing collaboration on both an economic and a journalist and editor at the World Service’s then strategic level. In Mexico, the BBC is enjoyed, admired headquarters, Bush House, in the 1980s and early 1990s. and trusted, and the British Council actively promotes In a subsequent career at the United Nations I British culture, language and values. Both are instruments experienced at first hand, in Cambodia and the Balkans, by which those in Mexico understand who we are, how critical the World Service is for people caught up what we stand for and what we offer. in the vortex of violence and conflict, where information 2015 is the Year of Mexico in the UK and the UK is always the first casualty. In the Middle East, I have in Mexico, and it will be a great mutual celebration. It seen how vital are the BBC’s services in Arabic and will strengthen ties between our Governments, our Farsi, on radio, in television and online, for the peoples people and organisations. This forging of greater bilateral of that region, and perhaps now more than ever, when trust and engagement will make both of us richer in conflict rages and freedom of the press scarcely exists every sense of the word. On the ground in Mexico, it is in any country from the Maghreb to the Gulf. The the British Council, alongside our embassy, that is tasks facing the World Service are as great as ever. In making this happen. this country, we look to the BBC for information, I worked for the BBC across genres, across departments entertainment and education, but there are still all too and across the globe. I remember that when filming many countries in this world where the BBC sheds years ago in the Gulf, a fisherman from Somaliland light where darkness prevails. One of my former bosses, saw our camera and came up to talk. “BBC”, he said Kofi Annan, the former Secretary-General of the UN, immediately, “BBC. We love the BBC”. He was talking declared the World Service to be Britain’s greatest gift about the World Service, which of course in those days to the world in the 20th century. was received through a physical entity known as a I am pleased to say that today, in a striking example wireless, not through a wireless connection delivering of the BBC World Service’s continuing relevance and to a multitude of platforms. The World Service has agility in adapting to changing circumstances, the kept up with the times and now people across the Foreign Secretary has agreed to a new Thai language world get their information through many devices, but digital service being established. This online news whatever the device the BBC is respected as accurate, service is responding to the need for accurate and impartial, objective and free of national interests. This impartial news and current affairs at a time when the 299 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 300

[LORD WILLIAMS OF BAGLAN] seeing it as a deviation from its core function. In my Thai media are subject to censorship following the view the critics are wrong. The mixed funding model is coup d’état of recent weeks. I welcome this move, the engine that keeps the British Council’s global which is of considerable importance. It may be a network in more than 100 countries running at a time model suitable for a Korean service, which the noble of austerity. If we want to continue to benefit from Lord, Lord Alton, has advocated for some time. Although the 80 years of relationships and experience that the there are many difficulties in that regard, not least the council has established, it would be unwise to change funding, I salute the noble Lord’s endeavours. When I the mixed funding model that has proved its worth for left the BBC in the early 1990s we broadcast in more the UK. than 50 languages, and nearly all on short wave. That The British Council’s establishment in 1934 was a number has now diminished to 27 languages, plus conscious effort to counter extremist views, and spread English. Our capacity in east Asian languages is much values of democracy and free speech around the world. weaker than it was, making a viable Korean service It has continued that work by taking the long view and difficult, although we have an online presence in languages maintaining a lasting presence in countries, even in such as Mandarin and Vietnamese. circumstances when other forms of engagement are I can testify that much of the focus in recent years no longer possible. That continuity of presence and has been on launching television and online services in purpose has been central to the organisation’s success, Arabic and Farsi, which have had a great impact and in creating the conditions for sharing our values throughout the region. Nevertheless, the withdrawal and strengthening our business ties. from short-wave broadcasting during the past decade It was the British Council’s lasting presence in the has been too fast, and in some cases deprived some of countries of the former eastern bloc that proved so the most vulnerable audiences that the BBC World important 25 years ago. Staying in places such as Service should serve. Romania and Poland through the tough times meant Despite this, the World Service remains the most that it was able to support these countries’ transformation popular and best known of all international broadcasters. into liberal open democracies. I could go on and give a Yes, it is under pressure from competitors and budget number of other examples, but time does not permit. cuts, but it is still primus inter pares. Following the The British Council’s cultural and artistic work, in financial settlement of 2010, it needs now to do more today’s digitally connected world, is based on reciprocity to show its relevance to licence fee payers. —that is, on developing a shared understanding of the Closure of the 648 kilohertz medium-wave service world through collaborative effort. This is the approach was a mistake and I propose to encourage the BBC that we are currently using, for example, to work with Executive to do more to promote not only World South Africa to mark the celebration of 20 years of Service language and World Service English but languages democracy, which will benefit not only South Africans such as Somali, Urdu and Hindi, which have more but those in the UK. speakers in our country than Welsh or Gaelic. The The British Council’s school in Madrid, Spain, impact of the World Service on domestic radio and which opened in the 1940s during the years of dictatorship, television has already been apparent, and we are seeing offers bilingual and bicultural education, and was rather fewer white men in suits in the world’s trouble quite explicit about its intension to inculcate values of spots. I believe that as we embed the World Service freedom, honesty, integrity and creativity. Now this further into the domestic BBC, our people will increasingly school, in a different way, serves the same purpose as see its value at home and abroad. the British Council’s work in South Africa—promoting the aspects of our national life that are attractive to Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, may I remind others, not least the excellence of our education and noble Lords that this is a time-limited debate? When the values that underpin it. the clock reaches 4, noble Lords have had their four This work does not set out overtly to export “British minutes. values”, but it is an indirect way of sharing important values—by keeping conversations going and by keeping 12.55 pm doors open to exchange views, ideas and beliefs. Reciprocity and longevity are central to the British Baroness Prashar (CB): My Lords, I thank the Council’s success, but those values do not always fit noble Lord, Lord Alton, for the opportunity to debate comfortably with the rather utilitarian and short-term this topic, and for his introduction. The BBC World views of those looking for immediate results. Service and the British Council are, of course, two of The British Council has always had a degree of the best instruments we have for promoting our values separation from the political arena and has had and interests. I am proud to be the British Council’s operational independence. Repeated studies and recent deputy chair. This year is its 80th anniversary, and it reports have shown that soft power should be, or has retained the same mission for which it was founded appear to be, not closely state-directed. Those reports in 1934. It has, however, transformed its economic build on the Foreign Secretary’s concept of a networked model and changed the way in which it fulfils that world, which best sums up how the council will need mission, in response to changing times. to operate in future. That means that the British The government grant now represents less than Council needs not only support but better understanding 20% of the British Council’s turnover. Entrepreneurship of how it operates and why. As the salience of soft delivers the rest. This means that, at a time of declining power has increased, it is all the more important that public sector funding, it has been able to grow its the factors which have made the British Council so influence for the UK. Some criticise this approach, effective for 80 years are protected. 301 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 302

I should therefore be grateful if the Minister would Council’s funding comes from government, with assure the House that the Foreign Secretary and the 63% coming in the form of fees and income from FCO will do all that is required to ensure that the services. By 2015, government funding will be less British Council’s entrepreneurial model and ethos will than 20%. I am pleased that the British Council seeks be supported. Any attempts to tamper with it or to maximise earned income to minimise the cost to the change it, as suggested by some, will be resisted—albeit public of its activities. with the promise of continuous improvement from the The activities of the British Council can be summarised British Council. It would also be helpful to get an under the following headings: English examinations, assurance that the British Council’s operational language school accreditation, arts, education and independence from government will be maintained. society and overseas development assistance. As noble Lords will be aware, the British Council’s activities are Baroness Northover: My Lords, I remind noble under review, with the findings expected later this Lords that when the clock reaches four, they have had year. I would like to add my views on the subject. four minutes. I have already said that more needs to be done to promote the work of the British Council. I also think 1pm that the British Council could move out of central Lord Sheikh (Con): My Lords, I am pleased to government, with its multifarious activities taken over speak in this debate. I think that we all appreciate the by the private sector. I also believe that we need to put importance of soft power in the modern world. We more power in the hands of local groups. The British must therefore make friends and influence people overseas. Council is already a very good employer in the areas in I am very supportive of the BBC World Service and which it operates, but individual facilities must be believe that it provides a truly valuable service, but I given more autonomy. However, they must work hand shall focus today on the work of the British Council. in hand with our embassies to ensure a joined-up The British Council is the UK’s international approach to our overseas activities. organisation for cultural relations and educational I am passionately supportive of the British Council opportunities, building lasting relationships between and hope that the Government continue to give it the the UK and other countries. The British Council has support it needs to carry on with the work that it does been building long-term trust, people-to-people so well. connections and international opportunities for the UK for more than 80 years. Each year, it works with millions of people on six continents and in more than 1.05 pm 100 countries. It is an essential part of our international Lord Eames (CB): My Lords, the House must be in effort to promote British values and interests. the debt of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving us I speak as someone who has benefited from the the opportunity to debate this Motion. The expertise work of the British Council. Growing up in Uganda, I that is exposed in the contributions that we are listening found the British Council to be an extremely helpful to from all sides of the House speaks for itself. Perhaps and informative organisation. The regional representative I may presume to add two human faces in support of of the British Council used to come to our school to the BBC’s overseas programmes. give talks. There was a British Council library in my The first takes me back to the days of the hostage home town, and I used to borrow books from it crisis in Beirut, in Lebanon, when I was privileged to frequently. It was through the British Council that I lead the efforts on behalf of the Archbishop of Canterbury learnt about Britain—its constitution, institutions and to gain the release of the hostages—British and Irish. I values. Indeed, my first knowledge of this House remember well the incident when a student in Beirut, doubtless came as a result of the British Council. with the gunfire surrounding us and the thunder of Little did I know that I would end up in your Lordships’ the gunfire filtering the air, said to me, “But for the House one day—I would never have dreamt that when BBC, we wouldn’t know what the outside world thought I was young. is going on”. That was a simple incident. I came to the UK to study by myself, and my family More recently, I visited North Korea, which the arrived later. When I came to Britain, I stayed in a noble Lord, Lord Alton, highlighted in his words a British Council residence: first in Knightsbridge and, few minutes ago. From a most unlikely source, there following that, in Lancaster Gate. The council also was a remark that will live with me for a very long helped me to find private accommodation in London time. Obviously, I cannot disclose the complete and once, when I was once in hospital following an circumstances, but the words speak for themselves. injury, a lady from the British Council used to come to “Where”, he said to me, “is the BBC?”. If you knew see me frequently. the person who said that, the circumstances and the I have nothing but admiration for what the British position that he held, it would set the balance right of Council does. I have continued to support it in my many of the impressions that we have of what is going work ever since. I have travelled a great deal abroad on in North Korea. Those words speak louder than and have spoken to representatives of the British statistics, transmission problems and the facilities needed, Council all around the world, including in , and I convey them to the House with great feeling. India, , , Kenya, and Nepal. In the present situation, vastly different to 1932 when The British Council does admirable work, but in this all began, with global conflicts and the transition this country, at least, it is not good at telling people from hard to soft power, the tactics that the BBC now what it does. We must therefore publicise its work. I employ to maintain that lifeline—a lifeline of voice, was pleased to learn that only 22% of the British sound and meaning on behalf of our nation—must be 303 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 304

[LORD EAMES] The Foreign Secretary is currently considering the maintained. Those of us who have contributed to the recommendations of the council’s triennial review and BBC’s overseas service, who welcome it and admire it, I hope he will ensure that when implemented it adequately are among those most anxious that, in this period of reflects the fact that the British Council is a long- financial change, everything is done in the new established and continuing success story which does circumstances to maintain and advance the global role Britain proud. Quite simply, if it did not exist, it would of such a service. need to be invented. The same can be said of the I implore the Minister, when she considers what she World Service, which reaches more people worldwide hears in this debate, to give serious consideration to than any other international broadcaster. Independent those of us who worry that although a budget may be surveys consistently rate the BBC as the most trusted set forth with great hope and vision, there are always and best-known international news provider, as other circumstances in which political reasons can be found noble Lords have already mentioned. to change it. I, for one, plead with her, as one who has Three months ago the World Service underwent a been impressed with the way in which she listens to fundamental change in its funding model. It was predicted arguments such as this, to reassure the House that prior to that—not least by a committee in the other those fears are unfounded. place—that the move to licence-fee funding would see a reduction in services and quality of programmes, yet we hear that its funding this year has actually increased 1.09 pm by more than £6 million. That is obviously very welcome, Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, I because despite suffering funding cuts in 2010 which congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on securing led to the loss of a fifth of its staff, the World Service this debate, but I regret that he included the word weathered that storm and today it can be said to be in “values” in the Motion. Not surprisingly, he said little very good health, with audiences are up by some about values in his opening remarks and made no 9 million on last year. I think it was the noble Lord, attempt to clarify what those values are. That is my Lord Alton, himself who referred to the situation in point. and Ukraine as being largely responsible for We had a debate in this Chamber two weeks ago on that. At times of crisis, people know where to turn for the question, which was utterly inconclusive. It is dispassionate, fact-based reporting, delivered professionally instructive that both the British Council and the World by World Service staff on the ground. Service in the briefings provided to noble Lords for I believe there remain concerns about governance. this debate tried to define British values. The British The man in charge of the World Service, Peter Council described them as “respect and tolerance”; Horrocks,usb does not have the top-table seat in the the World Service listed “fairness, integrity and BBC enjoyed by his predecessors, and secure guarantees independence”. “British values” means different things are required over safeguarding the distinct nature of to different people; there is very little consensus on the World Service into the future. Equally, it is essential what the values are. Therefore, until such time as there that the World Service should be taken into consideration is a settled view on what British values involve, it when conversations around the BBC’s charter review should not be seen as the role of the British Council, and decisions about the future of the licence fee take or indeed the World Service, to promote them, because place. what are they promoting? It is to be hoped that those in senior positions both The British Council and the World Service are at the BBC and indeed in government fully appreciate institutions which I have supported and worked for the huge asset that the World Service is both to the and with for many years, and I have the greatest BBC and to Britain. respect and admiration for them. Both have had to adapt to the effects of cuts in funding in recent times 1.13 pm and each has accepted the challenges that brought with a determination to maintain their high standards Lord Ramsbotham (CB): My Lords, I, too, congratulate and long reach. The British Council has had to bear a my noble friend Lord Alton on obtaining this important reduction in its FCO grant of around a quarter between debate. I am particularly glad that he mentioned the the year 2009-10 and now. Rather than scale back its wider context of the soft power role of the World activities, it has grown its self-generated income and is Service and the British Council in promoting British on course to fill that gap. That is very much to be values and interests. I declare an interest as a member welcomed. of the recent Select Committee on Soft Power and the Every year with the assistance of the British Council UK’s Influence and as a member of the Joint Committee more than 2 million people in more than 90 countries on the National Security Strategy. sit international exams leading to qualifications that My own practical experience of the BBC World improve their employment and life prospects in an Service was honed in Kenya and it became an affection increasingly competitive global market. However, the when I was commanding a base on the remote border council’s activities form a two-way street, because by between Borneo and Indonesia during confrontation. presenting the best of the UK’s cultural assets abroad My appreciation of the British Council was warmed they attract tourists, students and inward investment four weeks ago when, with the All-Party Parliamentary to the UK and build links between higher education Group on Egypt, I visited Cairo. We were very impressed, institutions in the UK and overseas, expanding the first by the energy of the director of the British exchange of research and innovation which benefits Council there, and secondly by the fact that he brought our economy. together some very interesting young students of English 305 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 306 from Egypt who were able to explain to us the youth said, “I am so very pleased to meet the BBC. I have verdict on what was going on in Syria in a way in listened to you all my life. I have listened to your which we might not have otherwise realised. services through communism, through the chaos of I want to concentrate very briefly on three democracy and through the autocracy of Putin. It recommendations in the Select Committee’s report shaped my view of the world. It shaped my view of my and say something about each of them. First, we country”. I found that moving and very warming, stated: literally. “We are concerned that the Government are not currently Many noble Lords have spoken of the extraordinary doing enough to support the BBC World Service, and we urge the work done by the World Service to project soft British BBC and the Government to ensure between them that the BBC power across the world and to shine a bright light of World Service’s budget is not reduced any further in real terms, and the opportunities for coordination across multiple platforms truth in places where it is being smothered by darkness to deliver content are taken”. and lies. I want to talk about the extraordinary work The Government said that they disagreed with our of my colleagues in the Russian and Ukrainian service recommendation but warmed us a bit by saying that of the BBC, who have seen the biggest audience increase they were currently working on a memorandum of of any service this year, to 14.5 million visitors monthly. understanding between the Government and the BBC. It is not surprising as the Russian broadcast media has almost completely been taken over by government Secondly, we stated: supporters pumping out nationalism and anti-western “The Committee supports the use of DFID funding to assist sentiment. the BBC’s development work, and we urge further consideration of how this type of support can be expanded”. Earlier this year, when the Russian Government We were very glad that the Government welcomed the annexed Crimea, the anchor on the main Russian support for DfID funding because that opens a much news announced that Americans must not forget that wider consideration of the way DfID funding is applied Russia can turn them to dust in 10 minutes. That was anyway. the anchor, not the Defence Minister or a nationalist. However, he has a point. Russia has a nuclear arsenal, Thirdly, on the British Council, we recommended: an increasingly disciplined and well equipped army “The Government must ensure that the British Council is and a leader who appears to be prepared to attack its properly resourced”. neighbours. The response we got was: One of the great casualties of this year’s events in “The Government is firmly committed to the work of the British Council and recognises its significant contribution to the Ukraine, as in so many other conflicts, has been truth. UK’s strategic interests through its work … and the Government The people of the Russia and Ukraine need disinterested will continue to work with the British Council on future funding”. news reporting to understand what is happening in I took particular encouragement from the use of the their countries, and the BBC is providing that. I cite an words “United Kingdom’s strategies” because they example. In May this year, a bus carrying separatist suggest that soft power was being consider in wider troops was attacked outside Donetsk airport, and a terms than it had been before. number of separatists were killed. On that day’s evening news the Russians claimed a Red Cross vehicle carrying Reverting briefly to the committee, witnesses we injured separatists to hospital had been hit by Ukrainian had were effusive in their praise of both institutions. jets and 30 people killed. A Russian website even In particular I was very glad that the trust they both Photoshopped a picture of the Red Cross symbol onto engendered was mentioned. I like to think that the tide the side of the vehicle. The BBC simply showed a is now flowing in favour of soft power and I am very picture of the vehicle, which did not have the Red glad that the momentum initiated by my noble friend’s Cross symbol on it. It reported that a vehicle with debate today may be maintained both by the debate separatists on board had been attacked, it was not on the soft power report and in the national security known how many were dead, and it was not known at strategy 2015 when that is produced. that moment who had attacked them. The values of BBC journalism mean that reporters do not just say 1.17 pm what they know but, equally importantly, say what Viscount Colville of Culross (CB): My Lords, I, too, they do not know. However, it is not just what is thank my noble friend Lord Alton for securing this reported; it is also the tone and words used to report, debate. I declare an interest as a producer at the BBC. which is so crucial. The Russians call the fighters in eastern Ukraine “supporters of federalism” and the Noble Lords know the great reach of the World Ukrainian media call them “terrorists”, while the BBC Service but I have my own experience. I was filming simply calls them “separatists”. with the Evenki reindeer nomads in Siberia, 1,000 miles north of the Arctic circle. One evening, the young The inclusion of World Service funding in the blades were going to take us to their nomad camp. It licence fee means that whatever comes out of the was supposed to be a three-hour journey. Unfortunately, charter discussions will affect it. We are told that they got a bit lost and it turned into a six-hour another freeze in the licence fee would be a brilliant journey. The temperature was a little parky—minus 46 outcome, an improvement on the threatened move to a degrees. When finally we arrived at the camp, you can subscription service, which is being talked about. I ask imagine our relief when we were shown our tent. the Minister to make sure that the funding is protected. Inside, warming the tent, was a marvellous gummy old People ask me why the licence fee payers of Britain Evenki lady who was chewing reindeer ligament to should pay for the rest of the world to get the BBC make it into thread for sewing. She looked at us and when we do not benefit. In fact, World Service reporting 307 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 308

[VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS] would not have happened without the British Council. increasingly affects the BBC journalism we receive in It is a vital tool in promoting Britain to the rest of the this country. Journalists from the World Service are world, and is invaluable in shaping the way in which used to report on our main news broadcasts in Britain. Britain is viewed. Last week, for instance, when there was the attack on Slavyansk in eastern Ukraine, there were no main 1.25 pm BBC reporters present. The World Service reporters Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, there is so much were the only people there. If you cut them you will unanimity about the House today that we are in also cut the news service that we receive here. danger of being over-repetitive. However, in a world The BBC World Service is a global treasure which increasingly dominated by social media, which shape must be guarded and nurtured. I am so very proud to the views of so many impressionable young people be the citizen of a country that supports an organisation around the world, the World Service can provide the transmitting what I see as British values: truth, free United Kingdom with an opportunity to project in a speech and democracy. professional and authoritative way our views on key global events. One has only to look at the propaganda 1.22 pm that is being put out on social media by the ISIS people, who are brainwashing a young generation of Lord Loomba (LD): My Lords, I pay tribute to the people, including, sadly, people in our own country. noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this important But the one thing we do not want the World Service to debate. In my brief contribution, I want to focus on become is an instrument of propaganda. It must retain India and education. a degree of independence and objectivity; otherwise Taking first the BBC World Service, one of the its credibility throughout the world will be lost. many advantages of this wonderful institution is that A number of noble Lords, including the noble radio broadcasts are available in Hindi. This increases Lord, Lord Watson, who is not now in his place, and the awareness of British current affairs enormously, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, mentioned which contributes to the cultural interaction between the position of Ukraine and Russia. I did not think India and Britain. The English-language programmes that I would see in this day and age Cold War-style provide something similar. For example, the “World propaganda coming from Putin and his people. The Have Your Say” programme facilitates discussion of reports that I listened to were so outrageous, so inaccurate current affairs and cultural ideas, while documentaries and so misleading. Indeed, they were very dangerous increase knowledge and interest in British culture and because we know from experience that inappropriate events. Such programming can also assist in British reporting can lead to actual death and destruction on efforts in international development, through the the ground. The material that was coming from Russian promotion of British values and increasing mutual sources was absolutely outrageous. Having a source, understanding between the two nations. an anchor, from which people can get reliable information, Importantly, the English-language broadcasts also particularly if it comes from one of our own institutions, encourage the listeners in their own use of English and is something about which we should be proud. therefore provide an invaluable learning tool. There I have to say that I have some more general concerns are resources devoted to the BBC “Learning English” about the BBC. I know that the House will return to programme, which provides free language-teaching that issue when the discussions on the licence fee and resources to those studying English in India. It is so on come up. The BBC has perhaps lost focus in clearly of great benefit to everyone involved that the recent years. We have seen senior executives coming to ability to speak English is spread as far as possible. the other place to defend the indefensible. That is most For example, many English speakers in India are of unfortunate. However, it is things such as the World great benefit to British industry in India. Service that give many people in this country a sense I should like to ask the Minister whether the of pride that there is something there to defend, Government have ever carried out any focused research protect and ensure. I often wonder whether the production on how far the BBC World Service is responsible for of mindless game shows and other such programmes educating listeners about British culture and British is really the core of the public service broadcasting values, particularly in India. Have people been asked ethos that I am sure many people in this House would why they choose to listen to the BBC World Service? wish to protect. However, we will have an opportunity Do we know what they get out of it? Do we know to return to that issue. We certainly have not heard the what they would like to see more of? I would be last of it. interested in the answers to these questions. If they are I am sure that the Minister will wish to look at the not being asked, I would suggest that perhaps they accountability aspect. The report from the Select should be. Committee asked, “Do we want to have proper Turning to the British Council, the UK-India accountability to Parliament for the activities of the Education and Research Initiative is a programme BBC in general?” We certainly do. If the accountability that develops leadership, innovation and technical skills mechanisms are there, a lot of the problems that we in leading educational institutions in India. In turn, have had in recent years will no longer be so strong. this develops partnerships between these institutions In summary, I must say that the World Service is and British universities, as well as with industry in the something that we are very proud of; it is something United Kingdom. This programme is supported by that is very successful; and I sincerely hope that it is both the Foreign Office and the Department for Business, long spared to promote truth and justice throughout Innovation and Skills; but the initiative I have highlighted the world. 309 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 310

1.30 pm soft power spearheaded by the World Service and the British Council could be unsustainable unless the Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, I will focus on Government get a grip our languages deficit. the ways in which the World Service and the British Council need and use foreign languages. I do not I ask the Minister, finally, whether she will initiate a question for a moment the importance of teaching coherent cross-departmental languages strategy. The and learning English around the world. However, in FCO has continued responsibility for the World Service the 21st century, speaking only English is as much of a language services, as well as being the department disadvantage as speaking no English. with a most excellent resource itself in the language centre, so it surely has the authority and the enlightened I declare an interest as chair of the All-Party Group self-interest to take this step. on Modern Languages, whose secretariat is provided by the British Council, and as one of the vice-chairs of the British Council All-Party Group. 1.34 pm The World Service operates in 28 languages. Five of Baroness Hooper (Con): My Lords, I, too, welcome the language services were cut following the spending this debate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for review in 2012 and others were reconfigured to reflect introducing it so thoroughly. Because they operate changing use of media. The Hindi service was one of overseas and mainly to overseas audiences, both the those cut, but then reprieved—I believe because of a BBC World Service and the British Council—particularly commercial funding partnership. I should be grateful the latter, perhaps—are not widely understood and if the Minister could clarify how the very successful appreciated in this country. More should be done to Hindi service is now funded and whether it is now raise their profiles with the taxpayers who fund them. secure. What of other language services that were not Given the number of excellent and informative reprieved? For example, I believe that there is no contributions today and the quantity of briefing that longer a service in Spanish to Cuba, or in Portuguese has been put together, as well as the Select Committee to Africa. Perhaps the Minister could say whether report on soft power, there is clearly plenty of evidence these two have been reviewed. It is the Foreign Secretary of the valuable roles that these institutions play in who decides whether to open or close a language promoting the United Kingdom and its values and service. I should like to know what the criteria are, interests worldwide. So I do hope that this debate is what the process is, and who else is consulted. well reported. It may be that the British Council’s The World Service plans to boost language service cultural programme for the Commonwealth Games in websites, do more multilingual programming and more Glasgow will also be helpful in bringing its role to the translation of key TV programmes. Multilingual attention of the British public. journalists do such a great job because they bring not As a member of the all-party group on the British only language skill but the local and cultural knowledge Council, I intend to focus on this side of the debate. that goes with it. They can analyse and interpret, The all-party group which is chaired by the noble interview and comment, in a way that no monolingual Lord, Lord Bach, has given us, in both Houses of could ever hope to. However, the pipeline of talent for Parliament, the opportunity to hear from a series of multilingual journalists is in danger of drying up. The regional directors who operate in the Middle East, UK lags well behind our international competitors China, Latin America, Afghanistan and elsewhere. and things are getting worse. GCSE take-up has improved From these meetings, the way in which the British but there is an alarming drop at A-level. Forty-four Council’s educational role, in particular the teaching British universities have scrapped language degrees of English, visibly supports the UK efforts to maintain since the year 2000. We are not taking advantage of and increase trade and commerce is made very clear. the linguistic talent of the 4.2 million people in the Sadly, these meetings are not always well attended by UK whose first language is not English but who speak Members of Parliament, which suggests that many do some of the languages in demand for business, diplomacy not perhaps consider this area of their work as a high and the World Service. These include Korean, Arabic, priority. I think that is terrible. It means in turn that Turkish, Mandarin, Pashto and Farsi. when budget and funding issues arise, there may be The British Council plays an important part in insufficient champions of these institutions in the keeping this pipeline open. It supports thousands of other place. Perhaps after the next election we can do students every year through the Erasmus programme. something about that. It brings native speakers into UK classrooms—nearly In the few minutes that remain, I would like to 2,000 last year—through the language assistant scheme. revert to an issue that I raised with your Lordships on Its partnership with HSBC promotes Chinese. Other other occasions. As has been said, the British Council schemes support school partnerships with francophone does valuable work overseas in promoting British African countries to support French, and with Brazil universities and other educational establishments in to develop Portuguese. Despite this, only 9% of English selection processes for fellowships and scholarships, 15 year-olds are competent in a foreign language and also in encouraging the formation of student beyond a basic level compared with 42% across 14 other alumni associations in various countries in order to countries. Languages are compulsory up to age 16 in maintain the links that have been formed. I am particularly 69% of independent schools, but in only 16% of state aware of this in Mexico, because there are significant schools. It will be 2025 before we see the full impact of numbers of Mexican students who come to this country the Government’s policy on key stage 2 languages. In and many of them become leading figures in the the mean time, a whole range of relationships, services political world and in industrial fields. Maintaining and functions which collectively constitute the kind of that link is important and valuable. 311 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 312

[BARONESS HOOPER] been much more active, with more local journalists, I believe there is also a role for the British Council and has trebled its audience. What changes have taken in this country. In the old days there was a British place in the coverage of events in eastern Europe? Are Council presence in most university cities—my noble people there becoming limited to online and digital friend Lord Sheikh referred to this. The British Council services, or do they benefit from the full range of live provided a centre not only for overseas students to radio reporting? meet and relax but also where they could meet British It is an important time for our relations with Russia. people. Too often nowadays students come to this The BBC’s Russian service seems to have continued country and remain in an international grouping, and expanded its audience, but I would like to hear having little or no contact with British people or the whether the Minister thinks it is going to confront the British way of life. It is not likely that we will be able to Kremlin’s hostile propaganda about the European return to the concept of a British Council house in Union. Incidentally, I recommend to colleagues the every university city, but if the British Council were to BBC’s monitoring service, which, in spite of cuts, still take a lead in providing co-ordination in this area, I collects news from all around the world. This week, for ask my noble friend whether the Government would instance, I learnt that the St Petersburg migration be prepared to support it. service has had 22,000 applications from would-be migrants and refugees from Ukraine—only on the 1.38 pm World Service. I will say a final word about the British Council, of The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, honest and which I am an enthusiastic supporter. Its office in accurate reporting plays a vital role in conflict, as my Juba, South Sudan, remained open throughout the noble and right reverend friend Lord Eames reminded conflict last December. This is an excellent example of us just now. We all benefit from the risks that these the transformative value of culture during conflict. men and women take in the course of their duties. We The council has developed an amazing and daring would do well to remember them more often. range of projects, and I hope that it will be able to I sincerely congratulate my noble friend Lord Alton reopen its office and continue. on securing this further instalment of a time-honoured debate. The BBC World Service has a well deserved reputation for the integrity and honesty of its reporting 1.42 pm and for its diplomatic outreach. It is also highly respected Lord Crisp (CB): My Lords, I congratulate my among news reporters themselves, who are the best noble friend on securing this debate and on putting judges of what can and cannot be trusted. I have some values and British interests centre stage, and indeed on experience of the World Service in developing countries. linking them. We may not be able adequately to define For example, I thought highly of Focus on Africa for British values, but I think that all the versions we have many years and I occasionally contributed to it. seen are pretty compatible with each other. I am also I was pleased to learn that the Afghan service is not very clear that British values are central to the UK’s winding down in line with ISAF’s defence arrangements reputation and influence in the world. Like others, I but will continue. The BBC reaches around 25% of see this around me in many different parts of the those in Dari-speaking areas and 21% of those in world. Pashtun areas every week, which is quite a high I agree with my noble friend Lord Alton’s concerns proportion. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that the about the resources and support for the World Service FCO and DfID will continue to support programmes and the British Council, and will listen to the Minister’s such as the radio soap opera “New Home, New Life” answer with great interest. The report from the British and “Afghan Woman’s Hour”. Many such programmes Academy that has been referred to encouraged the have international development content, as my noble Government to invest in and sustain soft-power friend Lord Ramsbotham mentioned, and a BBC institutions such as these over the long term and at survey found that 39% of listeners to “Afghan Woman’s arm’s length. That seems to me to be the right formula. Hour” were men learning about women’s issues such That report also pointed out that everything British as domestic violence and equality of opportunity. people do abroad is taken as a representation of the There have been other successes through the training country or a projection of Britain abroad, and it of local journalists, including refugees: Yalda Hakim, referred to the compartmentalisation of government who was born in Afghanistan in 1983 and fled with on this. Those are the points that I want to take up, her family into Pakistan, later returned to Kabul as an and I shall ask three questions about them regarding Australian broadcast journalist and is currently working these two great institutions—in other words, how they for BBC World News. link with other British activity abroad. As has been said, it was a great disappointment to I shall start with what I know about, which is those who follow eastern Europe that under the 16% cuts health. Youcannot now run the Department of Health proposed in the review several services were scheduled or the NHS without having a global perspective on to close, including those in the western Balkans. This national policy. This means many things, from sharing came at a time when the concept of European Union in the management of global academics to, just as enlargement not only had become a priority but was importantly, the mutuality of learning and sharing of one area where the EU could demonstrate considerable research in policy development. There is now an success. We have heard since then that through force of established tradition of health as foreign policy and circumstance there seems to have been a change of health diplomacy. I am delighted that the Government heart. I understand that the Ukrainian service has have set up Healthcare UK to lead this work and to 313 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 314 develop these relationships, building largely on the The third thing that slightly worries me is the NHS; what could be more emblematic of British values notion of soft power. I have always felt uneasy about it than the NHS? I believe that this is true in other areas because it seems to be an oxymoron; if it is too soft and assume that therefore most, if not all, domestic then it cannot be power, and if it is power then it departments need to have some kind of foreign policy, cannot be too soft. I generally find that if everything is if you like. I wonder how strongly government departments geared to the mobilisation of power, we are in danger are encouraged to develop relationships with the World of corrupting almost everything that we value because Service and the British Council to develop this role. it then becomes an instrument of mobilising power. I The comments about activity being a projection of want to stay away from the language of “hard power” Britain abroad also reflect the importance of civil or “soft power”, whatever “soft power” may mean, society and the links of all sorts between hospitals, and talk instead in terms of moral authority. We as a schools, villages and commercial organisations that country want to be trusted and respected; our intentions exist across countries and continents. Moreover, in should be recognised as honourable and other people today’s atomising society, people-to-people links are should want to listen to us. When we express an more important than ever. People get their news, opinion, people should say, “That’s a mature society information and opinions from diverse sources. People reflecting a view. We’d better hear it”. This is not the are influenced by people like them. National boundaries same as soft power because it is simply us being have become largely meaningless in the way in which ourselves, living up to our own ideals and, in the people relate to each other around the world. In that process, exerting a silent influence on others, not context, I also note that today’s Britain is rich in deliberately but through people recognising that we diversity of cultural backgrounds and languages, and have something to say and respecting our moral stature. in familial and religious links that circle the globe. Having got rid of these three general points, in the These, too, are a projection of Britain abroad, a daily, minute that I have left I want to turn to three questions hourly, minute-by-minute and perhaps second-by-second that I have for the Minister. source of interactions globally. First, so far as the BBC is concerned, people are These reflections leave me with three questions for simply amazed that we in this country should have an the Minister. What can she say about relationships organisation which we fund and over which we can between domestic departments, such as health and exercise control and yet we restrain ourselves and education, and the World Service and the British allow it to speak freely, including criticising the country. Council? Do these organisations reflect the full range The BBC already exemplifies an extremely important of interactions and possibilities, or is there more that value. That means that we should keep a distance should be done to encourage these departments to between the BBC and the FCO. engage? Secondly, what contribution can and does the Secondly, we are not entirely clear about the role very diversity of the UK population make to the UK’s that ethnic minorities can play in projecting Britain soft power? That question may go a bit beyond the abroad. They are our ambassadors and they should be remit of this debate but it links to my third question. I invited to play an important role in the thinking of the would be interested to hear the Minister’s reflection on BBC and the British Council. I am thinking, for how effective the Government think these two great example, of the fact that the Foreign Secretary has institutions, the World Service and the British Council, announced that we will be having a statue of Mahatma are in using and harnessing the power of electronic Gandhi in Parliament Square. That is one thing in communications and social media to project and develop which the Indian community here could be more the UK’s reputation globally. effectively involved—certainly, the Gandhi Foundation, of which I happen to be the president. The Gandhi 1.47 pm Foundation and other bodies have views on what kind Lord Parekh (Lab): My Lords, I, too, congratulate of statue to have and how it should be organised and the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, on securing so on, and I recommend that they should be involved. this debate. I shall introduce three reservations about Lastly, while the British Council has an important the discussion that we have had. First, I do not think role to play in projecting Britain abroad, I am not that it is a good idea to couple the BBC with the entirely sure that it has always been as imaginative and British Council. We should not lump them together inventive as it could be. Great changes are taking place because they play different roles in our policies. The in the world at large—in India, for example. The British Council is expected to promote Britain abroad British Council could play a major role in bringing the in a way that the BBC is not; the latter is an independent debates that are taking place in India to Britain. organisation and expected to be a voice of impartiality Likewise great change is taking place in Britain and and objectivity. those debates could be projected to India so that Secondly, although both are asked to promote British people can become familiar with how profoundly Britain values and interests, we are not entirely sure what is changing. I hope I have made some of the points I British values are specifically in mind, especially in wanted to make and I would welcome a response from relation to other countries that share almost all our the Minister. values. When we talk about British interests, we also need to bear in mind that there can be genuine 1.51 pm disagreement between two political parties, or between the British Council and the BBC itself, about what Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB): My Lord, I have great British interests are. We should therefore allow for a admiration and respect for both the British Council divergence of views. and the BBC World Service but I want to focus in the 315 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 316

[LORD JAY OF EWELME] dangerous world. The more that the BBC, particularly few minutes I have today on the BBC World Service. If the World Service, can do to promote those values I may be allowed one small comment on the title of overseas in its own way, the more it is not just helping the debate, I would have preferred to talk about the those who live in other societies but promoting British BBC World Service as promoting British interests interests too. through promoting British values, which would have guaranteed the independence and objectivity that are 1.56 pm so important to it and to which other noble Lords have referred. Lord Luce (CB): My Lords, I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Jay that really what we are debating The BBC World Service has built up a huge and today is the promotion of British interests through justified reputation for clear and objective reporting of British values. That is an important way of looking developments around the world, and it is listened to at it. for that reason. The more closed and controlled the I want to go back to focusing on the excellent regime abroad to which it is broadcasting, the more report of the Select Committee on soft oower, which important its broadcasts and values are to the people my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham mentioned who listen to it. That is why a number of noble Lords earlier. It highlighted the importance of not only the who have spoken today, and whose views I share, British Council and the BBC World Service but the would very much like the BBC World Service to be Commonwealth in the promotion of British values broadcasting to North Korea. I know there are difficulties and interests. I should like to see a strengthening of in that but I think it is an aspiration that it should keep. that connection between the Commonwealth, the British Those who listen to the BBC World Service in Council and the BBC. I do not need to deploy the countries like North Korea know that the broadcasts arguments about the Commonwealth to this House. It come from London but what is even more important is represents 25% of the world’s population and a cross- knowing that they are independent and unbiased. For section of nations, religions, cultures and values, but it that reason I, for one, am glad that the World Service has a common set of values through the Commonwealth is now funded from the BBC’s budget and not from Charter. I welcome the fact that, in paragraph 155 of the FCO’s. When I was in the Foreign Office and the report to which I referred, the British Council travelling, for example, in Moscow, Tehran and Beijing, talks about the need to not underplay the value of the I found a certain wry scepticism as to whether the Commonwealth to the United Kingdom. The BBC World Service could be genuinely independent report states: when funded by the state. The BBC is seen as pretty “It brings countries together and celebrates and promotes independent, largely because every Government thinks shared values and experiences”. it is part of the Opposition. That seems to me to be a An excellent example of this is the collaboration better place for the BBC World Service to be. I am sure that is taking place now in Glasgow between the that Members of this House and others will put the British Council, the BBC and the Commonwealth, necessary pressure on the BBC to ensure that the where they are promoting British culture through World Service gets the support and the funding that it music, dance, film, visual arts and the written word needs. against the background of the Commonwealth Games, Perhaps this is rather daring in the light of what one which are about to open. I am very proud of the fact or two others have said, but I want to finish by saying that, as a former Arts Minister, I nominated Glasgow a word or two about the values that we hope the BBC to be the European City of Culture in 1990. Another World Service and the British Council will promote. example is the collaboration between the BBC, the The British Council sums those up pretty well in its British Council and the Commonwealth Secretariat latest annual report, speaking of our openness and connecting a network of pupils aged between seven pluralism as a society, to which I would add tolerance. and 14 in 100,000 schools throughout the Commonwealth. These values come under attack from time to time, I can think of no better way of strengthening soft-power sometimes from within, sometimes from without, but links than through children at school, using the they seem to have an enduring quality. They include Commonwealth, the British Council and the BBC as an openness to ideas; an outward-looking society; a the asset. free if, we hope, responsible press; and a plural society, I want to ask the Minister two questions. First, open to and respecting different cultures and faiths as does she recognise that the collaborative project in long as they respect us too. We do not always keep to Glasgow could have an enormous impact within the that, of course, and our press and the social media Commonwealth as a whole if it does not end at tend to focus on our failings and not our success. I the time of the Commonwealth Games but is built thought it sad last week that more prominence was upon thereafter? Secondly, does she agree that the given to the intemperate remarks of a young Briton in 53 Commonwealth countries should make sure that Syria than to the appeal by British imams, Sunni and their work features in any long-term planning at the Shia, for those who want to help those suffering in British Council and the BBC, and that any reports Syria and Iraq to do so through respectable and that they make should embrace the Commonwealth responsible charities rather than through fighting. I approach? I am not suggesting that any of this should would add to that list of values a tolerance of others be at the expense of the work that the British Council and a respect of others’ views at home and abroad. It and the BBC do outside the Commonwealth but I seems to me that openness, pluralism and tolerance think we are throwing away a real asset and benefit to within a democratic society governed by the rule of Britain if do not urge closer collaboration between law are important values in an unstable and rather those three groups. 317 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 318

1.59 pm The United Nations Commission of Inquiry on North Korea by Justice Michael Kirby claimed that Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, whether the the practices of the North Korean Government were BBC World Service can fulfil its role is dependent on so appalling that they conjured up, where it is broadcast. The BBC charter states that it “images of the Holocaust and the great suffering of the Jewish should deliver news to, people and other minority groups in Nazi Germany”. “audiences with the least access to high quality impartial news”. Yet despite these violent barriers that prevent ordinary Nelson Mandela, Václav Havel and Aung San Suu Kyi North Koreans from receiving information from the are just a few of the notable modern heroes who testify outside world, many still do. I grew up during the deep to the importance of impartiality and accuracy of the recession of the 1980s, and we saw the importance BBC World Service when information is scarce. However, then of broadcasting to closed, mainly communist, at a time when promoting British values is a role for countries. If the North Korean people are brave enough our schools, the role of the BBC World Service in that to try and listen, we should broadcast. task should not be underestimated. There are more than 2 million listeners here in the UK, but when I 2.03 pm checked the annunciator in my office this morning I Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB): My Lords, like others, noticed that the World Service is not broadcast through I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Alton for our channels here. Perhaps that is something that we the chance to debate these two terribly important may look at remedying in the light of today’s debate. institutions. A good deal has been said about soft I join the noble Lord, Lord Williams, in congratulating power, and I am tempted to cite a moral tale from the BBC today. In light of the military coup in classical Chinese Taoism: the power of water. Water and its effect on free information, today marks the appears to be the most flexible, malleable thing that start of a digital news stream in Thai and English. I there is, but it is about the strongest thing there is. You also commend the BBC for finding funds at such short can try to dam it, you can try to divert it, but it will notice for that service. The UK’s contribution to aid in always get through. That is not quite a motto to put Syria for the refugees is a stunning £600 million. Has up on Broadcasting House, but it is something like DfID made sure that the many people residing in that. If the British Council and the BBC keep going refugee camps who have access to television and radio long enough, they get through. have access to the BBC World Service? That is not I will concentrate on two areas concerning the conditionality, it is merely common sense. British Council. I am a huge enthusiast for the BBC Two vital countries, North Korea and , World Service and, like many others, I have depended enjoy no radio broadcasts in either English or Korean on it for much of my life, but I have been involved, by the BBC World Service. South Korea, a G20 country, directly or indirectly, with the British Council—I declare the 15th largest economy in the world, with bilateral that interest—having some time ago been a trustee for trade with the UK of £500 million a year, has no eight years and a chairman of the Scottish committee. broadcast. Surely BBC broadcasts to that peninsula, From practically nothing, the British Council operation promoting our interests and values, would increase that. in China has grown to an enormous size. There is a North Korea has a Cold War information embargo staff of something like 350. There are operations in and is ranked 178th out of 179 countries for freedom Beijing and three other major cities. The potential of access to information. Why, then, is the BBC World there is colossal. It is said that some 300 million people Service not there? The BBC cites two main reasons. in China wish to get more involved in the learning of First, do North Korean people have a means to listen? English; that is of course something that the British That is, of course, hard to establish in a closed country Council does superbly.Another important thing, referred but a 2010 survey of defectors found that 27% listened to by my noble friend Lady Coussins, is that the to foreign radio before escaping. Surely there were British Council goes in two directions: it also helps to similar issues during the Cold War when the BBC recruit teachers of Chinese to come to this country broadcast. Of course, the Chinese might jam the signal and help people here to learn Chinese. That two-way to their 2 million ethnic Korean population, and perhaps process is valuable. only a small percentage of the North Korean population Another thing which comes from China is part of would be reached. However, the BBC funds minute the process of “slow movement”. Many years ago I services: in the Uzbek language to 400,000 listeners, had a Chinese friend who had never left China. In the and in Tamil to an audience of 200,000. The second short period between the defeat of the Japanese and reason given is that it would cost about £1 million to the victory of the Chinese communists he was involved launch the service. However, surely the option of funding with the British Council in Beijing; he did plays and this from top-up advertising, as happens in Berlin, learnt a lot. He was one of the most knowledgeable could be considered. The radio service would cover people on the subject of British literature I have ever Seoul, which is a huge market, and advertising on the met. After all the vicissitudes and problems of the Korean-language website would surely be an avenue to Cultural Revolution, he eventually became a rather explore. significant person in the Chinese cultural scene. The BBC is innovating technologically at break-neck That is part of my water analogy. It is a drip that speed, but is there such innovation around funding? started a long time ago, but the power of that drip is Could it not even attempt to crowd-fund this? Perhaps realised long after. I suggest that it means that you more conventionally, can my noble friend the Minister cannot create a balance and loss sheet every year for outline whether DfID funding could be made available the British Council. You have to think long term, not to fund such a service? just about what is happening in the course of one year. 319 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 320

[LORD WILSON OF TILLYORN] activities. If we believe in sharing our core values, we The British Council is also an interesting example need more than ever to ensure that we are heard of an organisation in the UK which very early on alongside and above those voices, not only those of realised the significance of devolution and the states but also those of organisations. The World re-establishment of a Scottish Parliament, and placed Service is such a powerful instrument of soft power itself so that British Council Scotland was seen to be quite simply because it is seen to be independent. It valuable. There were those who said that there should stands apart from the organs of the state; it projects a be a “Scottish Council”, but people quickly realised way of living and thinking, rather than current political that that would be very expensive indeed; and that, policies, and it is famous for consistently telling the more importantly, the British Council could do it as truth. That is the World Service brand. well if not better than a separate one. The work that That is also why successive financial cuts to the could be done by a regional part of the British Council World Service over recent years have been so worrying. is invaluable. As my noble friend Lord Luce just said, Time does not permit detailing them here, and others British Council Scotland and the British Council being have touched on them. There have been expansions in involved in the Commonwealth Games is a good other areas to set against this—the Persian and Arabic example of that. World Service TV audiences, for example; these now If, in September, the vote goes for a continuation of number some 50 million viewers. That growth in audience the union, it will be important not only that British numbers, in a younger audience and with the wider Council Scotland shows that it represents culture in range of media now deployed, suggests that the World Scotland as well as in the whole of the UK, but that Service is thriving. I celebrate that, as I am sure we British Council Wales and British Council Northern all do. Ireland and the regions of England also do the same. I have two concerns. In seeking to be popular, the You need a British Council which is truly British, and World Service must not become populist. In seeking to not just part of an organisation. be contemporary, it should not become simply commercial Finally—if I am not going too far—on money from entertainment. This is something which others have teaching English, it is sometimes said that the triennial touched on, and I believe that there will be increasing review may say that the British Council’s role in teaching pressure for it to do so. English should be reduced. I hope that the Minister I have three questions for the Minister. First, what may be able to assure us that that will not be the case. hard evidence is there that moving on to the BBC Of course there should be competition in teaching, licence fee has created a more stable basis for the but earning that amount of money is one of the things World Service to plan ahead, or is it still beset by that enables that great organisation to do so much else uncertainty? Secondly, does she agree that the World as well. Service should grow and be at the heart of BBC strategic decision-making processes, and is that 2.08 pm reflected in sufficient representation at board level? Lord Cromwell (CB): My Lords, I thank my noble Thirdly, if the World Service budget does come friend Lord Alton, as many have before me, for securing under pressure, will the Government step in to assist, or this debate. I will say a few words about the World will they simply declare it to be out of their hands? Service. As an outward-looking nation, the continued success Some years ago, I was in western Sudan on a of the World Service is vital to our future. It needs to motorcycle and needed to stop for the night at a grow in coverage, not to cut corners. That needs more village. I did so and, during the evening, the local resources year on year, not less. policeman brought out into the street a radio on a table, around which the villagers gathered and listened to the news from London, as they clearly did every 2.13 pm night. The policeman turned to me and commented, Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, it is a pleasure to “The BBC. Now we know what’s really going on”. speak for the Opposition in this excellent debate. I That story has always remained with me and I know thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing it, and that many of us in this House have other versions—from all other speakers who have added to it immensely Timbuktu to Kathmandu. with their wide expertise. There has also been reference to the World Service’s Before beginning my remarks, I have to declare actions in Russia. I should alert your Lordships to an interest—which has already been declared for me—as some inaccuracy abroad. I was taken to a school in the chairman of the British Council All-Party Parliamentary far north of Russia. On my arrival, two small boys Group. The make-up of its officers is truly all-party. were heard to discuss my appearance. One said to the The secretary is a Conservative Member of Parliament other, “A Lord, and still alive!”, to which the other and its treasurer is a Liberal Democrat Member of shook his head disapprovingly, and said, “Yes, but Parliament. As the House has heard, two of its vice- without his dinner jacket”. chairs are the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, from The World Service, as a source of balanced and the Cross Benches, and the noble Baroness, Lady accurate international coverage has earned an audience Hooper, at whose feet I often sit to learn about foreign of many millions around the world. Whatever our affairs and particularly about the British Council. I definition of British values, it is clear that some states, suppose that I should also declare an interest as a now in the ascendant, do not share them and are British Council child—my father was a senior British spending heavily on their own version of soft power Council officer for many years. 321 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 322

I believe that both the institutions we are discussing compliment to this service. If its broadcasting did not are profoundly important to Britain’s place in the have an effect, why would some Governments seek to world. I call them institutions, as we have during the prevent it? As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, stressed in course of this debate, as a mark of respect. They have his opening, we should be very concerned by increasing both earned that title over time. We have heard many violence and intimidation against journalists the examples of the good that they do in today’s world. world over. They are something of which this country can be The move to licence fee funding is clearly a significant proud—not only in the field of soft power but because step, and it is good that the BBC has managed to put they are a significant part of modern Britain itself. We some—I think it would agree minor—new investment would be a much less civilised country without them. into the World Service. However, as has been said, the Each faces challenges of its own and I shall try to deal real test will come in a little while, when the charter is with some of these. However, if there is one overriding up for renewal. We will then be able to judge better danger that both face, it is the danger of short-termism. what will happen in the future. Alternative sources of That was exactly the point that the noble Lord, Lord funding are of course a fact of life for the World Wilson, made a few minutes ago. By that, I mean the Service; and I note the corporation’s belief that, at tendency of Governments—Governments of all most, that could and should provide no more than complexions—not to think sufficiently of the long term. 10% to 15% of World Service funding in the long In the British Academy paper The Art of Attraction, term. The point has already been made about the new which some of us were sent for this debate, the authors digital news stream in Thai and English. It is hard to make that point powerfully in relation to both the overstate the crucial role that the World Service plays. World Service and the British Council. In the summary, Does the Minister agree that Her Majesty’s Government it says: must do all in their power to ensure that such a crucial “Despite their relatively low cost to the public purse, higher asset is not allowed to wither away? education, cultural organisations, arts and museums, the BBC World Service, and other soft power assets have not been protected The British Council has had to undergo huge changes from financial cutbacks. Neither have the substantial advantages in the past few years, too. A grant cut of 26%—down of proper investment in them been fully recognised. If governments to £154 million in 2014-15—befell the British Council are patient enough to wait for the long-term gains, they will reap as a consequence of the spending review. On its own, more benefits than by striving too hard to deploy these potential that would have been near fatal. However, as we have assets or by running them down for the quick fix of improving a heard, thanks to the leadership that the British Council budget deficit”. has shown—great credit should be given to various It continues: previous chairmen of the trust, and in particular to “Governments would be well-advised … To invest in and the chief executive, Sir Martin Davidson—it has built sustain soft power institutions such as the BBC, the British up at least 75% of its income through fees and income Council, and the education system over the long term, and at from services and commercial activity. Frankly, that arm’s length”. mixed economy of mixed funding has allowed the I accept that it is much easier to say all that than British Council to continue its vital work in nearly actually to do it, but I believe that it is an argument 150 countries and territories. that demands very serious consideration. I shall conclude with a couple of points. First, these There was a general feeling that the cuts made to days the British Council plays a significant role in the World Service and the British Council following areas of the world where enormous changes take place the 2010 spending review were unfortunate, to say the every day. It is in the front line in countries such as least. My right honourable friend the shadow Foreign Iraq and Afghanistan. It represents British interests Secretary argued at the time that foreign policy should and does good in very difficult circumstances, from advance British values and British interests—which Syrian refugee camps to Ukraine. That demands special are almost exactly the same words as are used in this qualities from its staff, not least courage, whether they Motion. I am sure that the Government would agree are local or British. The British Council libraries have with that statement. Of course the Foreign and of course been a council tradition for very many years, Commonwealth Office could not be exempt from cuts, and around the world, many of them have been but was it wise to reduce expenditure on those two modernised. The old saying is apparently still true—that organisations, given their reach across the world and in various countries the protesters protest in the streets their significance to millions around our planet? during the day, but in the evening they sit in the British Here we are sometime later, and challenges still Council library and talk. That is a reputation that the abound. However, there seems to be a consensus— British Council should be proud of. The council has certainly in this House, shared by the major political been very quick to respond to changes taking place in parties, but outside it too—that both these organisations the world. Just look at its current work in countries are an essential part of the soft power agenda. This such as Burma—where it has worked closely and very was recently reported on by the Select Committee on successfully with the FA Premier League—Libya, , Soft Power and the UK’s Influence, under the Egypt and, as we have heard, Sudan. chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Howell. Secondly, about two years ago I instigated a debate The World Service reaches a huge proportion of on the British Council in your Lordships’ House. One people worldwide. Not surprisingly, it has been warmly message that came across from around the House, and praised in this debate, in the same way as it is praised it is even more relevant today, is that the council must outside Parliament too. The fact that so much jamming remain a public service organisation. That allows it to and blocking takes place is surely another huge have the influence that it has. There was much concern 323 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 324

[LORD BACH] The noble Lord, Lord Williams, and a number of that the balance between public funding and commercial other noble Lords referred to the Thai language service. income should not go too far in the latter direction. If The Foreign Secretary was of course pleased to approve the council should ever be considered primarily as a the BBC’s approval of the establishment of a digital commercial organisation, its influence would gradually Thai language service. Mr Swire, the Minister for disappear. Any Government must constantly be alive South East Asia, said that that was an “excellent idea” to that danger. We await the outcome of the triennial which would, review. Can the Minister tell us when we can expect it? “help support the freedoms of expression and thought which are This has been an excellent debate and I look forward such critical parts of any successful democracy”, to the Minister’s reply. and that the initiative, “embodies what the BBC is all about”. 2.24 pm As my noble friend Lady Berridge said, it was a timely The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and much-needed move. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth My noble friend Lord Loomba spoke about the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Lords, I thank the BBC World Service India service. The BBC World noble Lord, Lord Alton, for introducing this debate. I Service carries out an extensive range of surveys in all also thank all noble Lords for a wide-ranging debate its 27 foreign language services, which is included in its with incredibly thoughtful contributions. shaping of its service offering. Within that there is a As this House is aware, the Government are a survey of the specific language service that the noble strong supporter of both the BBC World Service and Lord spoke about. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, the British Council. Both organisations are hugely spoke about specific programmes in Afghanistan. While valued—and valuable—soft power assets for the United I cannot speak about the programming decisions or Kingdom. They are both, rightly, known and respected schedule of the BBC World Service regarding Afghanistan, around the world for working hard to promote and I assure him of our ongoing commitment to democracy, model—dare I say, in response to the noble Lord, freedom of expression and women’s rights. Indeed, Lord Watson—the UK’s values of fairness, dignity, DfID’s commitment to those very specific issues will liberty and justice. I have just given the noble Lord form the backdrop of any support and funding. another list. However, I take his point on the difficulty The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, of a full and final agreed list of definitions of British the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Jay, my noble values. Quite rightly, today there has been much praise friend Lady Berridge and other noble Lords, spoke and support for both organisations. However, I say to about the possibility of a BBC World Service presence the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and other noble Lords, in North Korea. We agree that there is a pressing need that when the Government faced very difficult financial for a free, fair and impartial news service in the DPRK. decisions to reduce the deficit, these organisations Unfortunately, actions taken by the DPRK authorities could not be exempt. severely limit the ability of North Koreans to listen to The BBC World Service has—as this House knows, the cross-border broadcasts currently provided by a and as we have heard from the noble Viscount, Lord number of organisations. Colville—a global reach. It provides audiences across I know that noble Lords have heard me talk about the world with free, fair, impartial and informed national this from the Dispatch Box on a number of occasions; and international news, and its global mission and I am not sure that the same response will give much reach is even more important in these troubled times. comfort, but I will give it anyway. In late 2013, following It helps to protect the most basic of human rights—the a review and having considered all the options, the right to freedom of opinion and expression—allowing BBC World Service board concluded that it was not people to receive and impart information and ideas currently possible to offer a meaningful, impactful through any media, regardless of frontiers. Although and cost-effective Korean language service. However, the World Service is no longer funded by the FCO, we the BBC World Service has said that it is keeping the remain fully committed to supporting its work and situation under review. However, I can assure noble global role. We continue to work with the World Lords that, through our embassy in Pyongyang, the Service in support of our mutual objectives. UK is one of the few countries able to engage directly The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, asked specifically with the North Koreans, complementing the efforts of about funding. The BBC funding of the World Service others such as the United States who support broadcasts for 2014-15 is £245 million—£6 million more than the into North Korea. final year of FCO funding. That includes £8 million of My noble friend Lady Berridge spoke about a new investment in digital and multiplatform use service to the whole of the Korean peninsula. I understand programming. No announcement at this stage has that the BBC has considered extending a service to the been made on the funding for 2015-16. However, the whole Korean peninsula as an option, but it concluded BBC has publicly committed to maintaining at least that that would be complicated from an editorial point the £245 million for the 2014-15 financial year, until of view. Due to the different markets, technological the charter review. development and audience needs, a single editorial The Foreign Secretary’s responsibilities have not proposition serving such a wide population was not changed. He will continue to agree with the BBC Trust felt to be the most appropriate way forward. I also the objectives, targets and priorities of the World understand that the FM spectrum in South Korea is Service, and the languages in which it is provided, and now full, and that permission for any further foreign will continue to meet the chair of the BBC Trust news on a BBC FM frequency would not now be annually to discuss performance and achievements. possible there. 325 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] BBC World Service and British Council 326

The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, asked about 2015-16 will increase by £2.1 million overall from languages generally. The BBC World Service is 2013-14. The council will also receive additional funding operationally, editorially and managerially independent. of £1 million from the Cabinet Office for its GREAT Decisions on the establishment of any language service campaign activities. are for the World Service to consider and, if appropriate, The British Council’s work reaches people in more are then proposed to the Foreign Secretary to consider. than 100 countries. It plays an invaluable role in The kinds of factors that are taken into account promoting British values and interests overseas. It include feasibility, reach, impact and cost effectiveness. supports and promotes the UK’s world-leading higher I will certainly pass specific comments on a coherent, education system. It celebrates, teaches and expands cross-government language strategy to the Department the use and benefits of the English language. It shares for Education. with people across the globe the UK’s values, arts and The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked about coverage culture. in eastern Europe. I can inform him that the BBC’s The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked about funding audience in Ukraine has trebled in recent times and for the following year. We expect the 2015-16 additional now numbers about 600,000. The BBC’s Ukrainian ODA funding of £10 million will mean that the overall and Russian services have been crucial to the BBC’s grant-in-aid funding to the British Council for 2015-16 coverage of the current situation there, working with will increase by £2.1 million overall from the 2013-14 correspondents in country and with BBC news gathering budget. to provide domestic and global news. As I informed the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will answer to a Question on 7 July—or perhaps a letter— continue to have responsibility for the licence fee settlement details on the triennial review of the British Council and charter review. The FCO will provide policy advice are being finalised and the report and recommendations and support to the DCMS as appropriate. The long-term are with Ministers for approval. We hope to lay that future of the BBC and the BBC World Service will be report before the House rises for the Summer Recess. I addressed in the next charter review—my noble friend will ensure that the views of the noble Lord, and the Lady Bonham-Carter, and the noble Lords, Lord Watson specific suggestions of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and Lord Alton, asked about that. As noble Lords are my noble friend Lady Hooper and the noble Lord, aware, the current BBC charter ends on 31 December Lord Wilson, are taken into account as those reports 2016. The Secretary of State for the Department for are considered. The Foreign Office and the British Culture, Media and Sport can start the review process Council have worked closely throughout the review and begin considering options at any point before the process. At this stage it would be inappropriate to say charter expires. much more. The noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, asked some specific My noble friend Lady Hooper asked about the questions; I hope that the following will address them. specific contact the British Council has with UK cities The BBC Trust has responsibility for governing the and its co-ordination with universities. This is currently World Service and does this in the same way that it being discussed by the British Council’s board of approaches governance of the BBC’s other UK public trustees as part of its overall engagement strategy in services. If the budget is changed by more than 10%, the the UK. I await any further recommendations or BBC board must seek the approval of the BBC Trust. information that may come from that. As I have said, the Foreign Secretary’s responsibility The noble Lord, Lord Luce, spoke about the British for agreeing the objectives, priorities and targets for Council and the Commonwealth Games. We of course the World Service have not changed. As he made clear support the British Council’s programme of cultural when he gave evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee and educational projects during the Commonwealth on 12 March this year, he will continue to hold the Games, some of which were referred to by the noble BBC’s feet to the fire in protecting the interests of the Lord. Through them, we aim to make international World Service. FCO and World Service officials are connections between Scotland, the wider UK and the continuing to work together on existing and new areas Commonwealth. This includes initiatives such as of collaboration. Commonwealth Class, a joint initiative from the BBC, I turn now to the British Council. The Government the British Council and the Commonwealth Secretariat recognise the concern over cuts to FCO grant-in-aid that offers free access to teaching resources, classroom funding for the British Council, which is why we did activities, online debates and competitions to mark the not pass on previous reductions in the FCO budget Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games. It is a dynamic until the year 2013-14. However, the council, like all and engaging resource that will introduce pupils to FCO-funded organisations, has had to bear a share of Commonwealth values, as set out in the Commonwealth cuts to departmental spending. Let me assure this charter. House that the Government are committed to supporting I ask the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, to bear with me the work of the council through grant-in-aid funding, in the use of the words “soft power”. I hope I can give for example by increasing funding for the important him some examples. I refer first to the GREAT Britain overseas development assistance work it does. The campaign, which promotes British excellence around £0.5 million cut to the council’s budget for 2014-15 the world, with ambitious targets to increase trade and was mitigated by an increase to funding for overseas investment, tourism and study in the UK. The campaign development assistance activities. Additional ODA is active in more than 144 countries; it has secured an funding of £10 million in 2015-16 will mean that the economic return of more than £500 million from its overall grant-in-aid funding to the British Council for first year of activities; and it is expected to deliver a 327 BBC World Service and British Council[LORDS] BBC World Service and British Council 328

[BARONESS WARSI] the World Service in remote parts of the world was further £600 million to £800 million from the 2013-14 striking. We travelled from the remote parts of the funding. More than 1,000 inward-investment leads Borneo borders to the Arctic Circle, and we were also have been generated from that campaign. It is another in Tehran, Beijing, Afghanistan, North Korea, Egypt, example of soft power. Russia, Juba and even at one point Glasgow. We have I will also refer briefly to the Chevening scholarships. travelled widely. Only yesterday my right honourable friend the Foreign We also heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick Office Minister Hugo Swire welcomed around 600 current of Undercliffe, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, along and former Chevening scholars to Chevening House with my noble friend Lady Prashar, their first-hand to mark the 30th anniversary of the Chevening scholarship experiences of either being trustees or working today programme. He briefly discussed with me the people in the British Council or, in the case of my noble who were attending. The list was incredible: Foreign friend Lord Williams, of being a trustee of the BBC Ministers, Finance Ministers, vice-presidents and high- World Service. They gave professional and intimate level scholars from 144 countries and territories around accounts. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, described himself the world. There are now 43,000 alumni who are as a child of the British Council, his father having long-term friends of Britain in influential positions in worked for it. I can only say that if that is his parentage government, business and civil society, who help us to then the British Council has a great deal to be proud achieve our mutual international objectives and promote of, as we do in this House, because he is a pretty good our excellent universities and higher education around advertisement for it. the world. In 2015 we will triple the Chevening scholarship programme, so that many more scholars can study in We also heard about the importance of the foreign the UK. That will be another important aspect of our languages that can be promoted via the British Council soft power. and the BBC World Service, and our Commonwealth links. Regarding soft power versus propaganda, the I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord noble Lord, Lord Parekh, made an important point Ramsbotham, and his colleagues for the work they did about moral authority. We talked about accountability on the report of the Lords Select Committee on Soft and the question of values. I think it was Gertrude Power and the UK’s Influence. As the Government Himmelfarb who said that sometimes “values” is rather said in response to that report, the UK is most effective a weak word in comparison with “virtues”. However, I as a global actor when it draws together all its instruments think that perhaps we are also rather modest in this of national and international power: political, economic, country and do not like to talk about any of our military and the soft power that I referred to. institutions. The British Council and World Service The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked about diversity were described by my noble friend Lord Williams as as a form of soft power. I refer to it within the Foreign “two renowned and much loved” institutions. We do and Commonwealth Office as “Heineken diplomacy”, not often like to talk of them in quite that way, but we because diversity allows us to reach those parts of have nothing to be ashamed of. These are two wonderful diplomacy that we would not otherwise be able to institutions that reach vast numbers of people all over reach. I could give noble Lords numerous personal the world. examples in relation to the foreign policy work that I It was the Prime Minister, describing values, who have been involved in. I think it is right that we also said that British values are, use that diversity domestically, as the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said, in relation to, for example, the “a belief in freedom, tolerance of others”— work that he does. I will certainly make sure that his “tolerance” was a word that my noble friend Lord Jay organisation is brought to the attention of the India returned to— desk in light of the recent announcements. “accepting personal and social responsibility, respecting and upholding I hope that I have covered both the British Council the rule of law”. and the BBC World Service in some detail but also given a slightly wider perspective of how they fit into That is a pretty good starting point. We may have what I think is our much broader and wider soft power others that we want to add to the list, and we may influence. I reiterate the Government’s commitment to have concerns, as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, the global work of the BBC World Service and the described, but at least today’s debate has given us a British Council—both of which, as we heard today, framework. are widely accepted as important partners and assets As we proceed to the triennial review of the British in the UK’s approach internationally. Council and think about the future funding of the Finally, I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, BBC World Service, the Government will be in no for introducing this important debate. doubt as a result of today’s debate that your Lordships in all parts of this House—even though the debate was initiated from the Cross-Benches, there have been 2.41 pm valuable contributions from all parts of the Chamber— Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am extremely will be watching not just with apprehension and grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, for the concern but in the great hope that the Government way in which she has responded to what has been an will continue to support both the World Service and amazingly rich and incredibly well informed debate. the British Council. With those remarks, I conclude All the speeches in your Lordships’ House today have the debate. come from either personal or professional experience. The number of people who said that they had heard Motion agreed. 329 BBC World Service and British Council[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 330

Legal Systems: Rule of Law Why, then, my concerns? To understand them, you Motion to Take Note have to understand how our legal system developed. It is necessary to remember that our legal system, unlike 2.44 pm those on the continent, was not the creation of a single code; nor is our legal system, like almost all other Moved by Lord Woolf developed systems, protected by an entrenched written That this House takes note of the contribution constitution which sets out explicitly the functions of made by the legal systems of this country to the the different entities of the state. Instead, there was the international standing of the United Kingdom and creation of the common law, which today is subservient the observance of the rule of law in this country to the will of a largely sovereign Parliament. It is also and abroad. dependent on the Executive for its resources. This brings with it dangers for its independence, as was Lord Woolf: My Lords, I disclose my interests as in pointed out by my noble and learned friend Lord the register. Browne-Wilkinson when he was vice-chancellor. He The title of the debate refers to legal systems. I warned that as the Executive paid the piper, they emphasise that at the outset because, having fulfilled would inevitably be tempted to call the tune. Fortunately, the role that I have, I would not want it to be thought at least in relation to the role of the judiciary, the that I was not conscious of the importance of the Executive have usually exercised commendable restraint. other legal systems within the United Kingdom. Despite its vulnerability, our system, without an entrenched and dependent common law, is not without virtues. It I say at the outset that I am most grateful to my combines a considerable flexibility with a critical core fellow Cross-Benchers who voted to select this topic of common-law values. This enabled the common law, for debate. I am even more grateful to each noble Lord during the expansion of our empire, to be absorbed and to the Minister and shadow Minister who have into and to take root in more than a third of the agreed to take part. They are all extremely well qualified countries around the globe, including the USA. to contribute and collectively they have an extraordinary record of service to the system of justice in this Common-law values are important in any legal country. Their involvement in the debate is testimony system, whatever its source. This is because they are a to its importance. basic requirement of any developed justice system, It is uncontroversial that our legal systems have and closely allied to the values to be found in conventions benefited many countries, as well as our own. They such as those on human rights. They are also essential have made a unique contribution to improving the ingredients of any effective democracy. In the case of global observance of the rule of law. Other countries common-law countries, values have a long history, look to this country for guidance as to what needs to usually traced back to Magna Carta by members of happen if they are to bring their country up to the the Commonwealth and the USA. I understand that standards required by the rule of law. With this leadership another contributor may make reference to Magna comes responsibility. However, I now have a concern Carta in that context, particularly as next year is its that there is a real danger that we will not continue to 800th anniversary. Although it has an ancient pedigree, set the example that we have in the past. If we do not, the common law is still very much alive and kicking. A it will be extremely damaging to this county, as well as visit to any Commonwealth law conference will confirm to other countries which could benefit from our experience. that. Perhaps its values are incapable of being rigidly Today, there is considerable debate about what defined, though fortunately, before his untimely death, constitutes British values. The previous debate has a Lord Bingham of Cornhill was able to bring considerable very real relationship with this debate, as the noble clarity to the subject and his work is being continued Lord, Lord Alton, said. Whatever the right answer is by the Bingham Institute, under its director Sir Jeffrey to the question “What are British values?”, I am Jowell. It has also received detailed attention in the confident that hitherto those values would generally World Justice Project, which has just published this be regarded as including justice and fairness, which year’s Rule of Law Index. This sets out four universal observing the rule of law requires. After all, this principles of the rule of law. The project also indexes country fought the last world war to protect those the extent to which the rule of law is observed in values. 99 different jurisdictions. No country gets a perfect mark but I am rather disappointed that this country Since the end of the war, the importance of those only manages to be the 14th most observant of those values has increased immeasurably. Our legal system, countries that form the 99. based on observing the rule of law, is a major contributor to this country’s economic health. Internally, it is part Undoubtedly, there is still a very high regard globally of the essential infrastructure required for a healthy for our legal system. This results in multiple benefits economy. Externally, it is now an important constituent to this country. Our courts—especially the commercial of our global exports. The Bar, the Law Society and court—are used by litigants from around the globe. the Public Law Project prepared briefing papers for Our lawyers and judges are universally admired and this debate. I refer noble Lords to each of those branches of our international law firms are prospering. papers, as they provide very useful information on the Their integrity and ability is not open to question. background to this debate. Even a glance at them Because of our judiciary’s reputation both before and makes clear the importance of the contribution made after they retire, our judges are in great demand to by legal services to this country. We should be very assist other jurisdictions, which they do willingly. I proud of what has been achieved by our lawyers and hope that some of my judicial colleagues who are legal system. down to speak will inform the debate with their experience. 331 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 332

[LORD WOOLF] requires judicial review to protect his position, it is I will not speak to mine, except to say that I cannot essential that he has a right of access to the courts to resist mentioning in the presence of the noble and achieve this. The procedure is one where the involvement learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, that of lawyers is particularly important but the availability we were once called upon by President Chirac in Paris of legal aid has been drastically cut, and that interferes to give him advice, which we happily did. I have also with the ability of some litigants to appear before the sat in overseas courts. court. What is more, the Lord Chancellor is now While the position may look comfortable, at present proposing in legislation to interfere with areas of we cannot assume that in the future it will take care of judicial discretion which were working perfectly itself. It needs appropriate support and that support satisfactorily and were so regarded by everyone concerned. has not always been forthcoming as rapidly as it I know that the Minister will pray in aid the need should. Instead, over the past decade, there have been for austerity. But even if savings could be achieved by a series of events that collectively suggest a lack of what is proposed, which is highly doubtful, they would appreciation in government of the importance of ensuring be modest. Part 4 of the Criminal Justice and Courts that our legal system remains fit for purpose. This is a Bill discloses a failure to attach sufficient significance new era in which other jurisdictions wish to compete to the importance of ensuring that justice is done in an with us for the benefits that our legal system has area playing a vital role in achieving the balance to already earned for us. which I have been referring. I referred to disturbing events. Let me mention Judicial review may at times be inconvenient to the what I have in mind. I have already indicated that we Government but it achieves better administration, which have no entrenched constitution. It is essential, therefore, benefits the Government. It is their task to accept that that our constitutional arrangements include checks it is a critical part of our society. The changes are and balances to protect our rights and freedoms. Here, being made contrary to the wishes of the senior judiciary. the historic office of the Lord Chancellor played an They show signs of being ill considered and rushed. important role. His responsibilities included speaking While reforms to judicial review are perfectly proper up in Cabinet for the judiciary, of which he was a this is not the way they should be made. member, and for the legal system generally. The former I turn to the area of criminal justice, where I fear Labour Administration attempted to change one aspect, that the unintended consequences resulting from also involving judicial review. It was vigorously opposed government action could be grave indeed. The quality by the legal profession and the judiciary, and I am glad of our judges is dependent on the quality of the legal to say that it was withdrawn. profession from which they are drawn. As a result of The former Labour Administration also attempted the changes being made in funding, it would be difficult to change our constitution by altering overnight the today for any responsible person to advise a youngster status of the Lord Chancellor. As a result we now have coming into the profession to take up a criminal a situation where there is a Minister in the Commons practice. It is essential that standards do not fall, who combines the roles of Lord Chancellor and Minister because if they do the effect will be serious. Moreover, of Justice. He is not a lawyer and he has different and the position is not confined to newcomers. We also wider responsibilities than those of his predecessors. have problems with the heaviest cases, which are well Inevitably this affects his relationship with the judiciary, known, so I will just draw attention to what was said the profession and our legal system. The Constitutional by Lord Justice Levinson when giving a wise judgment. Reform Act 2005 says he should “be qualified by These are some of the concerns, and I look forward experience” but so far I am not sure of the precise to the other contributions to the debate. form that that experience took. This is no doubt a handicap for him, and I commend him for establishing 3pm excellent personal relations with the senior judiciary. I hope that he will forgive me, however, if I say that it Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, I would be natural for there to be suspicions. Unlike the thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for old-style Lord Chancellor, he sees his current role as giving us the chance to debate this important topic. As being only one more step in what will no doubt be a he knows, and as my noble friend on the Front Bench glittering political career. This is not what the profession knows, I am not a lawyer, so I would like to make and the judiciary expect from a holder of this still high three remarks from a lay man’s point of view. They office. I am sure that he recognises that at times the are a great deal less technical than the speech of the impression he could give is of a politician in a great noble and learned Lord, and I hope he will forgive me hurry, which will not make it easier for him to obtain for that. agreement that would facilitate the changes he is anxious The first point concerns the UK legal system and to make. Britain’s world reputation. Like the noble Lord, Lord Our lack of an entrenched constitution supported Ramsbotham, I was a member of the committee chaired by a constitutional court means that we require an by my noble friend Lord Howell, the Select Committee effective legal mechanism for ensuring that public on Britain’s soft power. Our report was published in bodies do not exceed or otherwise abuse their powers. March and the Government, as the noble Baroness, This need has become much greater as society has Lady Warsi, reminded us a few minutes ago, have become more complex. The judges responded by given their response. We have yet to debate the report developing a streamlined procedure of judicial review and, in Shakespeare’s words, I do not want to run which gives judges wide discretion to hold the balance before my horse to market, but perhaps it is worth between the Executive and the citizen. As the citizen quoting two sentences from paragraph 175: 333 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 334

“The UK is also a world leader in the legal profession. mob. However, there is a need to be in touch and in According to the Humanitarian Intervention Centre, the UK’s tune with underlying social and economic changes ‘highly sophisticated and developed legal system’ is respected and attitudes. As I say, that is perhaps a discordant around the world ... In the Centre’s view, this legal prowess ‘affords the UK a high degree of legitimacy and credibility in the point, so in conclusion I return to Peter Bauer. It has international arena which in turn gives its diplomacy great weight”, been written of him that: and efficacy. That is my first point. “Bauer’s legacy is a better understanding of the forces that shape economic development, especially the institutions of private My second point is of a more personal nature. property, stable money, free trade, and limited government under During their school or university career, many noble a rule of law”. Lords may have had an occasion, be it a lecture, a I can think of no better reason for supporting the class, a lesson or a tutorial, where something was said noble and learned Lord this afternoon. that transformed the way they thought. I share one such example with noble Lords today. After completing 3.05 pm my undergraduate degree here in England, I went to Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, we are live in America for a number of years. While I was particularly grateful to the noble and learned Lord, there I took an MBA at the Wharton School of Lord Woolf, for securing this debate. There could be Finance and Commerce, as it was then known. The no better example of the contribution made by the school used to arrange for eminent people from around judiciary than the ever watchful eye of the noble and the world outside of business to come and talk to the learned Lord; we have heard this afternoon, of course, MBA students. One afternoon we had a talk from his own outstanding contribution. Moreover, I have Peter Bauer. He was born in Budapest in 1915 and had the privilege of appearing before him. For the came to England in the 1930s where he lived for the removal of doubt, I make it clear that my appearance rest of his life, later becoming a Member of your was as counsel and not in the dock. Before I leave the Lordships’ House as Baron Bauer, of Market Ward in issue of the integrity of our judiciary, I compliment the City of Cambridge. On that afternoon 45 years another outstanding figure of integrity, the noble and ago in Philadelphia, he explained his vision for helping learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. I compliment the the less fortunate of the world. At the time development Government on choosing her to fulfil a difficult role. was largely seen as a government-to-government matter, I will deal with only one aspect of the observance of but Bauer argued that that was not effective. He saw the rule of law, and that is in international affairs and effective development as being conducted at a much the difficulties that I experienced. It is the interpretation lower level, through trade rather than aid, and where and implementation of the rule of law that causes aid takes place, at the people-to-people level. His problems. Domestic law in general is more certain legacy is the GATT rounds that we have seen and, than international law, where judicial precedents can indeed, the growth of the NGO movement. be scarce. As the Attorney-General, it was my task to Bauer went on to argue that afternoon that people- be the Government’s principal legal adviser. I was to-people relations are not conducted in a vacuum; fortunate in being able to call on a galaxy of legal they need a framework. Bauer’s framework, as he expertise to assist me. However, before I took office it explained it to us, was respect for property rights and never crossed my mind that the interpretation of acceptance of the rule of law. He emphasised in particular international law would play such an important part the value of the English common-law system. Rather and demand so much of my time and attention—from as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, did a advising on resolutions of the UN Security Council moment ago, Bauer explained how flexible it was and and interpreting the Geneva conventions to drafting how it could be adapted to changing circumstances. the rules of engagement for our troops. It seemed to be He saw it as the responsibility of the richer parts of an endless conveyer belt. the world to help establish a ladder up which the However, it was the interpretation of the rule of law poorer parts of the world could slowly, and no doubt during the war in Kosovo that was my biggest problem. painfully, clamber. He saw the rule of law as being an As Ministers, the military and civil servants, we are essential rung of that ladder. I accepted that argument bound under domestic law and the Ministerial Code to then, and today, faced as we are with continuing great obey international law, hence the military’s anxiety to impoverishment, I see it as an important reason for get legal cover for its activities. With the growth of supporting the proposal of the noble and learned international courts, that is becoming more and more Lord. important. Our decision-makers, particularly but not My third and final point is perhaps rather more only the military, could find themselves having to discordant. For my part, I do not see the actual law answer for their actions before an international court. and the rule of law as being entirely separate. The rule My job was to give what assurances I could for the of law is a vital principle, but if under its cloak laws actions proposed by the Government. In Kosovo, the are enforced which are ossified or outdated, then internationally assessed evidence was quite clear: an respect for the rule of law itself will be undermined. overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe was taking UK judges and judges around the world have great place in that country. Ethnic cleansing was being power to hold us all to account, and that is quite right, perpetrated on a scale with few parallels. What was the but with that great power, as the noble and learned background? Article 2(4) of the United Nations charter Lord pointed out in his speech, comes great prohibits the intentional use of force except for self-defence responsibility—the responsibility of ensuring that or with the authority of the Security Council. During judgments and approaches reflect the changing world. my time, it was impossible to get the Security Council That is not to say that judges should reflect transitory, to allow the use of force by passing an appropriate ephemeral public opinion; that way lies rule by the resolution. 335 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 336

[LORD MORRIS OF ABERAVON] read with admiration the contributions from the noble Was that the end of the matter? My Conservative and learned Lords, Lord Woolf and Lord Brown, and predecessors had to consider whether force could be the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, warning of the threats used on humanitarian grounds in Iraq 1 in order to set to the rule of law in Part 4. These threats are harmful up no-fly zones to protect the Kurds and the Marsh to our legal system, to the UK’s international standing, Arabs. I distinguished Iraq 1 from Iraq 2, and they and to the rule of law. agreed that it could be used. The difference between One of the main values of judicial review is in Iraq 1 and Kosovo was that the United Kingdom curbing abuses of power by the Government themselves. acted passively in the former, whereas if bombing When Governments seek to limit judicial review, they night after night was authorised in Kosovo we would are judges in their own cause. I hope that the Government be proactive, if not aggressive. We believed that there will heed the argument that Part 4 of the Bill should was no practical alternative to our proposed use of be taken out altogether. The Joint Committee on force and that it was the minimum necessary. Human Rights, on which I serve, found no evidence to Our observance of what we deemed to be the rule support the Government’s proposals. Last Friday the of law was further manifested in that, night after night Constitution Committee, on which I also serve, noted for 68 days, I personally had to agree each bombing that lowering the threshold for judicial review risks target to ensure that we adhered to the Geneva unlawful administrative action going unremedied. The conventions. I queried some of the applications to Committee asked the Government to heed the warnings bomb, and I turned down the last application to bomb from the senior judiciary, and I hope the Government a great part of Belgrade. Many years later, I was will respond positively. present in Brussels when I heard the NATO supreme commander saying, “If the Brits thought it right, it Everyone in this debate will agree that the British must be right”. legal system has made a great contribution to the international standing of the United Kingdom and to My prognostications about the possibility of having the rule of law. Even though only four out of 47 countries to answer for our actions before an international court in the Council of Europe are common law countries, turned out to be true. I was summoned back from a we British may take justifiable pride in the drafting of conference in the Caribbean to lead for the United the European Convention on Human Rights—mainly Kingdom in an action brought by Yugoslavia before in Whitehall—and in having exported the convention the International Court of Justice at The Hague, in its rights to the constitutions of so many Commonwealth attempt to stop the bombing. The United Kingdom countries and dependent territories in Africa, Asia was one of nine NATO defendant countries. The and the Caribbean. We may take pride in the way that court found that it lacked prima facie jurisdiction to British lawyers have influenced both European courts entertain Yugoslavia’s application. The main issue was to have regard to our dynamic common law. deferred and never resolved. I was disappointed that the legality of our actions could not be determined, We may take pride too in the quality and integrity and some distinguished academic lawyers have since of British judges, who have served with such distinction condemned and contested our actions. on both European courts. These include Lord Mackenzie Stuart, Lord Slynn, Sir Konrad Schiemann, Sir Francis I believe that international law has to evolve to Jacobs and Eleanor Sharpston in Luxembourg, and meet the post-1945 conditions. I note that the present Lord McNair, Sir Vincent Evans and Sir Nicolas Attorney-General, in his advice to Parliament on the Bratza in Strasbourg, to name only some of them. proposed military action in Syria last year, followed precisely and word for word the relevant observations One challenge is to encourage outstanding British set out in my own memoirs. In the part of his opinion judges and lawyers to apply to serve on each of these that was published, there was no reference to the European courts. Thanks to the Human Rights Act possibility of actions being challenged by a legally and the willingness of our courts to interpret the competent, interested country in an international court. convention rights wisely in the context of our own I am sure that as a distinguished lawyer he made it political and legal system, British judgments are especially quite clear that there was this possibility, and brought influential in Strasbourg. As our judges have become it to the attention of the Cabinet. more familiar with the jurisprudence they have opened Finally, against the celebrations of Magna Carta, a dialogue with the court where they consider that its we can all be extremely proud of our own legal system reasoning is questionable. It is a partnership that and its contribution to the world. works well, and it has encouraged our courts to develop the common law progressively to meet modern needs and values rather than treating law as full of ossified 3.13 pm fossils, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD): My Lords, I too Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. am grateful to my noble kinsman, the noble and Unfortunately, much of this is threatened by a learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for initiating the debate narrow insular ideology, fuelled by right-wing sections and for his very timely words of wisdom. I am particularly of the media and Europhobic politicians. However, glad to be speaking in the presence of the noble and they are not all confined to the right wing of the Tory learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who in my judgment party. I must say that the failure of both Lord Chancellor was one of our great Lord Chancellors. I wish we Jack Straw and Lord Chancellor Chris Grayling—one could maintain that standard in that great office. a lawyer and the other not—to abide by the final I was unable to take part in the Second Reading of judgment of the Strasbourg court in the prisoners’ the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill last week, but I right to vote cases is unprecedented, and in blatant 337 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 338 breach of international law. It has tarnished our which the charter provides—it is called the international standing and the rule of law in this Great Charter—that citizens who went to Virginia country and abroad. would have the same rights there as if they were still Threats by the Home Secretary and the Lord living in England. And then, most importantly, in the Chancellor to tear up the Human Rights Act and limit early 1700s, a clear decision was made: unless the the powers of our courts and the European Court of country had an existing system of law, whenever there Human Rights have hugely diminished our international was a new colony, British law would apply. Hence, in standing and influence. Their rhetoric and their threats 1765, when Parliament passed one of the more foolish set a terrible example to the pseudo-democracies of Acts that it ever passed, the Stamp Act, the American Europe and beyond. I am not convinced that the colonies decided that they had had enough and we British people will be enthusiastic when they come to ended up with a rebellion. realise that such constitutional vandalism will weaken May I just pause? No punishment without trial; and not strengthen the protection of British rights by independent process for decision-making; due process; British courts. There would be no redress if, for example, equality before the law; the rule of law—they were Parliament enacted a racist statute depriving British exported from this country. There are many facets of black or Muslim citizens of the right to vote. imperialism which are open to question, but if you It is 50 years since I argued the first British case in were to go now, as I have been in the past few years, to Strasbourg. I have witnessed the way in which British the annual Commonwealth Law Conference, there lawyers and jurists have brought the convention system gathered together are men and women, lawyers and to life. I have had the privilege of frequently meeting judges, from the entire Commonwealth. They will ambassadors, judges and European civil servants in criticise us for this and comment adversely for that, Strasbourg. A decade ago, our international reputation but the heritage of the rule of law is something for was outstanding and our influence was significant. which they hold us in affection. When we discuss, as Five years ago, thanks to an outstanding ambassador, we do, the problems faced by other Commonwealth Eleanor Fuller, and Ministers, we successfully promoted countries, or one or two Commonwealth countries or much needed court reforms. Much still needs to be around the world, they look to us not in any sense of done, but UK influence has declined. profound respect because we are British, but because, I know that my noble friend the Minister, Lord in a sense, we inspired some of these ideas which now Faulks, will not agree. We were good colleagues on the matter to them. Bill of Rights commission, but in the paper he wrote for the commission with Jonathan Fisher QC he disagreed It is not entirely accidental that, when you look at with the Attorney-General, Dominic Grieve, who warned your television screen—if you do—to see the trial of that the UK would become a pariah state if we left the Oscar Pistorius, the judge trying the case may not be convention, and found it difficult to see how the UK’s wearing a wig, but she is wearing the identical robes withdrawal from the convention would weaken the that a High Court judge out on circuit trying a protection of fundamental rights. I hope that this murder case would be wearing in Birmingham, debate and the Attorney-General may cause the Minister Manchester, Liverpool or Cardiff. It is a very to think again. important living tradition in which the United Kingdom still holds high authority. I must add that the Australians think that they are now the repository 3.20 pm of the common law. The Australians—I say with great Lord Judge (CB): My Lords, I shall not disclose respect to them—never fail to make a claim when they confidential conversations that I have had with the can. They think that our grasp of the common law has present Lord Chancellor nor say anything that might been weakened, if I may say so to the noble Lord, lead to the impression that I am disclosing private Lord Lester, by the contaminating effect of the European conversations, so I shall be reticent. Instead, in six convention. minutes, I propose to cover 800 years of history, and I There is one point that I want to make which hope your Lordships will see why. perhaps will not be obvious, on judicial training. This We are going to celebrate 1215. We know what we is one example, and it is only one, of the value of our are celebrating, do we? We are celebrating no punishment system. We have visits from all sorts of countries to without trial, but deeply significant and frequently the Royal Courts of Justice. I do not mean a social; I overlooked is clause 61, which states that the King is do not mean looking around the building and having subject to the law. In the olden days the King made his lunch with the judges; I mean a serious visit to find out oath and he accounted to God for whether he had how we do this or how we do that. The Judicial obeyed it. As a result of Magna Carta, he had to College, as it now is, welcomes people from all over the account on earth. If he failed to obey the law as world who come to learn about training. More declared in Magna Carta, the barons and everybody importantly, they ask the college to send men and else were absolved from their oaths of fealty. In the women judges to train the trainers in their countries, 1350s, due process was introduced. 1610 is the first or to train their judges. The topic, largely, is judicial time that I have found the rule of law actually ethics and conduct. The countries include Russia, appearing—it appears in the protest in the other place. Rwanda, Nigeria and Pakistan. This is part and parcel In the 1670s, independence of the jury was established, of the respect in which our system is held. It is comforting and in 1689, the independence of the judiciary. that the European Commission conducted a huge In the mean time, another strand was going on. investigation into judicial training throughout the countries 1616 was the year of the founding of Virginia, in of Europe and came to the conclusion—it is a nice 339 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 340

[LORD JUDGE] the elders announced, thing to be able to say—that the largest number of “but that he is a good god, and that his name is the Judicial best practices were to be found in the United Kingdom Committee of the Privy Council”. and our Judicial College. Nowadays, the influence of London as a legal Can we please not take any of this for granted? The centre of excellence depends not on the chains of quality of our judicial training depends on the judges empire but on the quality of the product we produce. who do it. The quality of our entire system depends This influence and respect, hard won, are very easily lost. on attracting high-quality men and women to the I share the concerns that have already been expressed, judicial Bench. If we take it for granted, we will lose it. particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, that the policies of the present Secretary of State 3.26 pm for Justice, Chris Grayling, will damage the reputation, the influence and the financial success of our legal Lord Pannick (CB): My Lords, it is a great pleasure sector. If you undermine judicial review as an effective to be part of a team of speakers with a forward line of control on unlawful executive action, if you refuse to three former Lords Chief Justice and two former implement judgments of the European Court of Human Supreme Court justices that would win any legal World Rights with which you disagree, if you reduce the Cup. scope of legal aid so that the most impoverished This country is, as Shakespeare’s John of Gaunt citizens of this country are denied effective access to says—it is still true— the courts, and if you cut legal aid rates so that the “the envy of less happier lands”. brightest students—who are, of course, the judges and One of the reasons is our legal system, with its skilled senior prosecutors of the future—cannot afford to and independent judges. There is a reason why Prime work as barristers, and if in general you seek to Ministers reach for a judge to investigate complex and administer our justice system on the cheapest basis sensitive public policy issues. They do so because possible, you will inevitably dilute its quality and judges and retired judges have a reputation for expertise, pollute its reputation. for integrity and for a determination to ensure that justice will be done—none more so than the noble and 3.32 pm learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB): My The legal system is important not just to the quality Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble and learned of our life but to our economic prosperity. The United Lord, Lord Woolf, on securing this debate and on Kingdom accounts for 7% of the global legal market. introducing it so engagingly. Although I prefer to We are the leading global centre for the provision of regard the Motion as a call to arms rather than a international legal services. A paper issued by the glorification of our legal history, I cannot resist the Ministry for Justice in 2012 stated that the legal services temptation to start by listing some, at least, of the sector in this country contributed £3.2 billion that proud legal maxims that resonate throughout our year in exports, nearly three times more than a decade history. Freedom is the birthright of every Englishman; ago. an Englishman’s home is his castle; let right be done, I declare an interest as a practising barrister. I make though the heavens may fall; be ye never so high, the my modest contribution to that £3.2 billion in exports. law is above you; the presumption of innocence—the In the past year, I have worn my wig and gown in the golden thread that runs throughout our law; trial by courts of Trinidad and Tobago, the British Virgin jury—the lamp that shows that freedom lives; and Islands, Bermuda and the Special Administrative Region habeas corpus. of the People’s Republic of China—that is, Hong Habeas corpus is literally a direction to a jailer to Kong. I have also travelled in the past 12 months to bring up the body of his captive in court, together advise clients in Gibraltar, Zurich, Paris and Moscow. with any suggested explanation for his detention. In A number of my colleagues, either at the Bar or in this context I must mention Somersett’s case, in 1771, solicitors’ firms, have more stamps in their passports. and Lord Mansfield’s historic holding that slavery We all find that, across all these geographical and was, cultural borders, the universal truth is that English “so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law, English judges and English lawyers are regarded law”, with enormous respect and admiration, none more so and that in England there was none. The words that than the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who I end that historic judgment are: thank for initiating this debate. “The black must be discharged”. In applying the presumption of innocence, the But I always thought that counsel had the best line: principles of judicial review, the laws of contract and “The air of England is too pure for a slave to breathe”. the protection of fundamental rights, the world still However, we must be careful not to appear immodest, looks to London for guidance and legal services. Part or to boast about our past contributions to the rule of of this is the historic residue of empire and the influence law. Rather than emphasise the pride that, naturally, it commanded. In his epic account of the British we all take in our strong tradition of fair play and Empire, Pax Britannica, James Morris tells how a hill justice down the centuries—a tradition that we owe to tribe in India were involved in a dispute with their our forebears—should we not rather focus on the need government about forest rights. Their elders were for our own generation to safeguard that reputation? discovered sacrificing an animal to appease a distant That, surely, is the imperative today. but omnipotent deity: On the subject of boasting, I am afraid that I “We know nothing of him”, cannot resist quoting a little ditty that has long pleased 341 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 342 me. It is displayed on a plaque in the men’s locker 3.39 pm room at Huntercombe golf club, and it reads thus: Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, “Golf and boasting do not mix. I, too, refer to my interests in the register and echo If you win by 7 and 6, other noble Lords in congratulating the noble and Apologise for what you’ve done learned Lord, Lord Woolf, on securing this debate and And write it up as 2 and 1”. on the eloquent and erudite way in which he opened it. I am sure the Minister knows that ditty; certainly he is We all know how much the continued high standing of far more likely than me ever to have been in the the British legal system owes to his personal contribution. position of winning by seven and six. I will not concentrate on our pre-eminence in the Today we are concerned with the law, not with golf, field of commercial law—the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, so—with profound apologies for my appalling doggerel— and others have made that case well. I will add only a might not a rough legal equivalent of that ditty for mention of arbitration and ADR. The development of today go something like this: a body of arbitration law by which parties are left free to choose their arbitrator, venue and procedure, “The law and boasting do not mix. underpinned by a strong enforcement regime, has Better far, let’s try to fix been important for our international standing. So, Attempts to erode judicial review too, has our reputation for ADR and the willingness By voting down provisions new”? of our courts and the professions to encourage and That, of course, is a reference, as has already been facilitate mediation. made by other contributors, to Part 4 of the Criminal The Motion speaks of the rule of law. To me, the Justice and Courts Bill now before this House in cardinal principle is that the law, not the state, is Committee, which contains provisions that seem to supreme. As Dr Thomas Fuller expressed it in 1733: many of us to constitute a real threat to the courts’ “Be you never so high, the law is above you”. supervisory jurisdiction and the judges’ power to hold government decision-making to account, particularly Fuller was famously quoted by Lord Denning in the as these provisions come in the wake of the severe cuts Gouriet case in 1977, again by Lord Bingham of to legal aid that, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cornhill in his seminal book on the rule of law, and Woolf, mentioned, were introduced earlier this year by just now by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown secondary legislation. A few years ago I attended, as of Eaton-under-Heywood. did others here, an international conference in Hong We in this country are confident of the independence Kong under the title, Effective Judicial Review: a and incorruptibility of our judges, which are guarantees Cornerstone of Good Governance. So it is—and we of impartiality—we are fortunate in that—but certainty diminish it at our peril. and consistency are also important for our reputation, and the doctrine of precedent has helped greatly with The other central threat to this country’s international them. Transparency is also increasingly important, legal reputation that I, in common with the noble with electronic communications now disseminating Lords, Lord Lester of Herne Hill and Lord Pannick, information instantly and universally, I suggest that see is the readiness of too many nowadays to cavil at there is room for more televising of cases, particularly the constraints put on us by our being party to the judgments and reasons for sentence. Of course, there European Convention on Human Rights—to the point, must be restrictions, particularly on witness evidence, indeed, of dishonouring our obligation under Article but more recording would enhance public understanding 46 of that convention to comply with Strasbourg of judges’decisions at home and internationally, unfiltered judgments in United Kingdom cases. by an often populist and partial press. As has already been mentioned, the Government’s Several noble Lords have mentioned the European stance on prisoner voting is a classic illustration of Convention on Human Rights, the great work of, that. The Joint Committee’s report last December is a largely, British Conservative jurists, the vision of Winston model report, addressing the whole question of our Churchill, which substantially underpins our system relationship with Strasbourg, and it demands close and enhances its credibility. It allows the scrutiny of attention and early action. I do not have time to recite the exercise of state power by reference to a guarantee some of the powerful conclusions of that committee, of fundamental human rights and freedoms justiciable but it points out that one cannot cherry pick the in our courts under the Human Rights Act. obligations under the convention, as that would only What do I see as the threats? I shall highlight just give succour to states of the Council of Europe that four. First, the political threat to the Human Rights have a poor record on protecting human rights, and Act is serious. Sadly, it comes largely from politicians, which might draw on such an action as setting a who are frequently complicit in falsely portraying it as precedent that they may wish to follow. a creature of the European Union and treating it, I invite the Minister, in his reply, to assure the perversely, as a charter for the unworthy and a threat House that the Government have no thought of to law-abiding citizens. There is a crying need for a withdrawing from the convention. Indeed, I hope that wider understanding of the reality—and, as several he will be able to assure us that the court’s judgment in noble Lords pointed out, for respect for the judgments Hirst is finally to be honoured, so that some prisoners, of the European Court of Human Rights. at least, will have the vote by next May. Assuredly we Secondly, the contraction of legal aid as a result of have a proud legal history. Let us ensure that we austerity has risked access to justice, and so our maintain it for the future. international reputation for fairness. I hope that, where 343 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 344

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] you might be able to sit next to one or two, listen to alternative funding methods cannot be found to fund them speak and have their friendship. I thank all my legal advice and representation, in due course the great friends who have been wonderful to me and have Lord Chancellor’s powers will be exercised, as funds given a lot of value to my life. allow, to bring some of the excluded areas back into scope. I want to say a few words about India because I think it is worth mentioning. When India was under Thirdly, the threat to judicial review, mentioned by the rule of the East India Company, there were three others, which we will debate later this month, threatens major presidencies and they all had separate laws. It our reputation for the rule of law. The measures was a big muddle. No legal system applied everywhere proposed would unfairly and unjustly choke off private but for 200 years there were appeals to the Privy funding to support challenges to the Executive, stifle Council, which is quite amazing. One or two islands interventions by public-spirited bodies and prevent may still have appeals to the Privy Council. What judges from protecting litigants of limited means who could say more about the esteem in which the British challenge government action. legal system is held? People still feel that if they can Finally, we have made far too little progress on have this as a last point, they should keep it. judicial diversity. In the four years since the excellent report of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Neuberger, Eventually, of course, there was the Law Commission we at least passed the judicial diversity provisions in chaired by Lord Macaulay which marked the beginning the Crime and Courts Act. However, last year, we of the proper legal system in India. It is still going on. missed a golden opportunity to appoint our first woman It has been slightly updated but basically it is the Lord Chief Justice. Since April last year, there have common law. Not only that but, as has already been been three appointments to the Supreme Court Bench mentioned, many of the former colonies took the with not a hint of diversity among them. system on and, from the period when Lord Macaulay did the work, countries such as Malaysia and The issue is important. Whatever we think of Oscar have the same law still. There is a reason why this Pistorius and his trial, the international reputation of common-law system has lasted. It has lasted because it South Africa’s legal system has been immeasurably has value. Nothing which has no value can last. People enhanced by our witnessing, day after day, the quiet, think it is something that should continue; they do not careful and considerate handling of his trial by Judge wish to change it into something else. Masipa in a case mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. In India there was one difference. There were a lot To achieve judicial diversity, we must achieve more of personal laws. There was a Hindu law, a Muslim diversity in the professions. However, the reduction in law and possibly a Christian law and a number of legal aid and the uneconomic remuneration rates for different personal laws about things such as marriage, criminal work reduce the number of lawyers undertaking adoption and inheritance. I fear that we might be publicly funded work. When I asked my noble friend starting to allow that in this country. Every country about that on Monday, he said that, should have a single system of law and not allow “there is less for lawyers to do and inevitably there will be fewer people who come from different backgrounds and lawyers to do it”.—[Official Report, 7/7/14; col. 10.] have different social attitudes to start developing their That may be technically accurate, but, equally inevitably, own laws. That is not only against the basis of common the reduction is in those doing publicly funded work. law but against the interests of this country. All laws The reduction in the standard of lawyer undertaking should apply to everybody equally and should be such work has been mentioned, and is important. enforced properly. India is a secular country and there Wishing no disrespect to either my noble friend or me, are a number of religions. This is not a secular country. the more that the professions sound like him and me It behaves like one but it has a state religion. If there and look like him and me, the less we are likely to has to be a religious law, it can only be a Christian one. present to the world a judiciary that is genuinely We have no personal laws dictated by religion and that representative of modern Britain. is a very good thing. I think it should apply to everybody else as well. We are rightly proud of our legal system but we cannot stand still, and I fear that we may not be I want to say a few words about the noble and keeping up in important areas. learned Lord, Lord Woolf. He did the review of civil procedure. I think it is amazing that a report got 3.45 pm enacted so quickly. That is not the fate of all reports. It must have been of value to have been enacted. He put Baroness Flather (CB): My Lords, in thanking the down eight points and they are so sensible and so noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for initiating this clear that even Parliament thought it was good idea to debate, I want to share some personal memories. I enact it. think I have known the noble and learned Lord longer than anyone else in this Chamber. We were at UCL. I want to mention another thing, which is again He was a year senior to me, but I had the great good personal. I had the great good fortune of knowing the fortune to know him from my student days. I must mother of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips have been one of the luckiest law students in the of Worth Matravers. She was a friend and she liked country, because the other person with whom I shared me. One day—it was State Opening—when I came in dinners in Inner Temple was the noble and learned from that end where the judges were sitting, first the Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. In those days, to students noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, got up to greet like me Law Lords were gods. Younever imagined that me, and then the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips. 345 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 346

By the time I got to a seat they said to me, “We them—to train trainers, as it were. They have been thought maybe all the judges were going to stand up frequently to , Malaysia, different parts of to greet you”. the Caribbean, Mauritius and elsewhere. About four years ago at Keble, the international 3.52 pm Advocacy Training Council was launched—primarily Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe (CB): My Lords, as a an initiative of the English Bar, but readily and warmly footnote to several of the eloquent speeches your supported by judges and advocates in Australia, Hong Lordships have heard, may I mention one aspect of Kong, Malaysia and South Africa. In fact, the annual our legal arrangements which is not perhaps well gathering for advocacy training at Stellenbosch is probably known but makes a significant contribution to the rule the only serious competitor of Keble for being the top of law and, incidentally, to the standing of this country? world event in advocacy training. It is the participation by the Bar of England and The demand for advocacy training exceeds supply. Wales, and to a limited extent the judiciary, in the Some Bars, such as those of Hong Kong and Malaysia, training of young lawyers, both here and overseas, in are very prosperous and can afford to pay some or all the art or craft of advocacy. This important work is of the expenses of visiting teams. Other jurisdictions undertaken entirely on a voluntary basis and without are less well off; and the visiting teams have to pay remuneration. I declare an interest as I am a patron—with their own way there, as well as give their services free the Chief Justice of Hong Kong and Justice Kiefel of of charge. But it is striking how, wherever they go, the the High Court of Australia—of the International experience is one of huge gratitude for the help and Advocacy Training Council, which I will mention encouragement given to the local Bar, nowhere more towards the end of my speech. so than in Zimbabwe, where a team visited last year— I begin with a little history. For hundreds of years, probably the most testing task that they have undertaken, the training of young advocates was entirely in the having received no support at all from the Government hands of the judges and the Bar. It was a thoroughly of Zimbabwe—but with great success. hands-on training. The students spent the day in court In short, advocacy training has become for this listening to the arguments and judgments. They lived country an invisible export, freely bestowed and in the Inns of Court, where they discussed points of enormously appreciated by the recipients. It is something law and listened to their elders and betters discussing of which we can be very proud. points of law. That went on until about the middle of the 17th century, when, for a variety of reasons, there 4pm was a sad and steep decline. Legal education in the Inns of Court became formulaic, perfunctory and Lord Plant of Highfield (Lab): My Lords, I should basically useless. like to add my thanks to the noble and learned Lord, I am glad to say that that decline has now been Lord Woolf, for initiating this debate. Perhaps I may decisively reversed. The Inns of Court—all of them— draw attention to my interests as set out in the register. accept that their primary function is as centres of legal I want to devote all my remarks to the idea of the education. The Inns and the circuits—the other bit of rule of law, because what exactly that might mean is the Bar’s infrastructure—work to supplement and continue not without controversy. There is a fairly straightforward the learning given to students in the university law idea of the rule of law, which I think is highly inadequate. schools and the Bar’s professional training course, This view is that the law is what a duly constituted especially in the fields of practical advocacy and sovereign says and that it emanates from a recognised professional ethics. They are able to do that only sovereign power. The rule of law then is a matter of because a large number of practitioners, including complying with those laws issued by that sovereign. some of the busiest practitioners and judges, are prepared This positivistic view is still much debated and discussed, to give something back. but there are two fairly major objections to just seeing I would be delighted to tell the House more about the law as validated by its source. the methods and techniques that we use—groups of The first objection is that it is perfectly possible to six students, usually with one or two trainers—but I have a duly constituted sovereign power that has a fear that it would take up too much time. I will say highly authoritarian set of laws. I do not want to only that the instruction is intensely practical; it is prejudge it too much, but Egypt might be a coming largely at an elementary level because we are dealing example of this. There is no doubt that General al-Sisi with beginners—and with them one is concerned with was duly elected and there may well be a raft of highly the elements, not the niceties, of advocacy. There are, oppressive laws coming down the track. On this positivistic however, much more advanced courses. The most view, however, they are still the law; complying with outstanding course, of which at least my legal colleagues the rule of law is complying with those laws whether will be well aware, is the week-long advanced advocacy you like it or not. course held every year at Keble College, Oxford, which The second objection to the positivistic view of the goes on to more advanced matters, including appellate rule of law is that it is highly relativistic. For example, advocacy, and the important topics of handling vulnerable we are facing in this House the issue of the role of witnesses and expert witnesses. The courses at Keble judicial review. One might say: in that jurisdiction with are regularly attended by numerous students and trainers its laws, there is a place for judicial review and that is from overseas, and the Inns of Court have, to an fine; and in this jurisdiction with its laws, there is not a increasing extent over the past 10 years or so, either very big place—or a place at all—for judicial review. singly or in combination, sent parties of trainers to These are perfectly equal. We have no reason for other territories in order to pass on the system to preferring one to the other. They are both fine within 347 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 348

[LORD PLANT OF HIGHFIELD] have a feeling that this, with some notable exceptions, their own doctrine of authority, but both of these is very much a lawyers’ meeting place, if not a picnic. I objections would lessen the attraction of the source am afraid that, as yet another lawyer, I am contributing view or the positivist view of law to those who are to that. keen on the idea of the rule of law. It is entirely appropriate that the noble and learned We need more—or more subtle—criteria for thinking Lord, Lord Woolf, should have put forward this most about the rule of law. One place where this can be interesting debate. Although he is too modest ever to found, up to a point at least, is in Lon Fuller’s famous accept it, he is an excellent example of the export of book The Morality of Law in which he lists a whole English law and its systems around the world. In my range of criteria that must be satisfied before the rule view, he is a shining example of the English legal of law can be said to exist. For example, the law has to system and our judiciary. He was one of the British be public and not secret; the law should not be and Australian judges in the final Hong Kong Court retrospective; there can be no strict obligations imposed of Appeal; he set up the financial court in and on citizens without the force of law; all citizens are to was its first president; he has been an international be subject to the law in an equal way; we have to listen mediator and arbitrator since his retirement; and, like to both sides of a legal dispute; laws are to be mutually other English retired judges and lawyers—not retired non-contradictory; they should be constant through lawyers—he applies English law right across the world. time; and the official actions of government and its agencies are to be congruent with the law. This gives us I shall speak briefly today about family law, as a a bit more to chew on than just the positivist view. former president of the Family Division. I want to However, critics have said—I think that there is a lot make two points, one positive and one negative. First, of force in this—that this does not take us very far, I congratulate each of the Governments over the past because these are not really moral criteria for thinking 25 years on the introduction of good family legislation. about the rule of law. They are just efficiency conditions The family courts apply almost entirely statute law, for any legal system. So any legal system that is going and it is an area where the legislation has played a to work will have to include most of these criteria that much more important part than in many other areas I have just read out. Therefore, this is not what Fuller of the courts, and particularly rather less of our calls it, namely the inner morality of law, but rather it common law. Government and Parliament are essential is just a set of efficiency criteria for the operation of a components of the application of family law to the legal system. litigants, who need a rather special type of help from the administration of justice. I applaud much of the What we need is a view of the rule of law that pays legislation, from the Children Act 1989, through some attention to that, because they are important efficiency excellent legislation under the previous Labour conditions, but we need to go beyond that to the place Government to the recent Children and Families Act, where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, was in together with recent excellent reports such as Munro his speech—namely, to think about the broader view and Norgrove. of the role of basic moral principles in the law, as exemplified, for example, in the rights that are protected Having spoken of the good part of family law, I under the European convention, the Human Rights now turn to the bad part. From April this year, as Act and so forth. We have to look at outcomes, not noble Lords will know, there is no legal aid in private just processes. So much talk about the rule of law is family law disputes, including children and finance, about either the source of law or the Fuller type of unless it comes within a very small list of exceptions criteria. We need to look at what kind of society we such as domestic violence and child abuse. From my want the law to foster, which will include these various experience of 35 years sitting at different levels of the rights and protections for individuals, including the family court, I know that divorce or separation of justice and fairness of the noble and learned Lord, couples who have lived together is a painful emotional Lord Woolf. process for most people, and for some it is traumatic. To finish on a slightly less heavy note, I was once in In a small but significant minority, perhaps 5% of a committee in your Lordships’ House when someone cases, the former relationship turns corrosive and one got rather muddled up and came up with a wonderful or both former partners use the courts as the arena to comment, which I shall leave your Lordships with. fight their failed relationship. Some people in this This person said that if you are thinking about how position hate the other person so much that they the British legal system has impacted on the world, it cannot see why their children should love or have has turned warlords into law lords—and I think there anything to do with the other parent, and they cannot is something in that. come to any agreement. The government emphasis on mediation is excellent as far as it goes but it will not work in this 5% of cases. Judges and lawyers know this 4.06 pm but successive Governments do not and either appear not to understand or will not listen. Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): I should very much like to have the opportunity to respond to the noble Lord, Barristers and solicitors who did this private law Lord Plant, but I think the short answer to what he work did not earn large amounts. Their desire has said is that the concept of the English rule of law is the always been to seek a settlement of the issues between one that we follow and which we are discussing today, the parties, and their protocols require them to put the and which I would commend. However, it would be welfare of children first. They now do very little of very good to have more time to discuss the very this work because most litigants have no money, so interesting points that the noble Lord has just made. I men and women, untrained in the law but fighting 349 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 350 their failed relationships through the arena of the and practice is much more embedded, too, within the courts, are appearing unrepresented before judges and legal profession. The noble Lord, Lord Livingston of magistrates. The task of the courts, faced with carrier Parkhead, in his first contribution to this House last bags of unsorted and disorganised papers in child December, confirmed his view that the legal services cases and even more so in financial disputes over the sector is one of the most important sectors for the former matrimonial home and maintenance, is huge UK. In fact, it employs almost 350,000 people. The noble and unmanageable. On a practical note, it clogs the Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the fact that the rule courts and creates delay so I hope that the Government of law is now one of Britain’s great exports; exports of will listen to the fact that it is not cost-effective. It is legal services totalled more than £4 billion last year. only in suspected child abuse cases that there is legal Our law and law firms are becoming ever more aid so that the children may be represented, and I have international to meet the needs of businesses. Law to say to your Lordships that parents are the worst firms such as my own have responded by becoming people in this group of cases to make any decisions international in their own outlook, establishing a global about what should happen to their children. Anyone presence. There are close links between legal education, but parents would be better because this comes in the our laws and the legal sector. We attract students from aftermath of their traumatic separation. all over the world. This needs to be nurtured. The We have Magna Carta celebrations next year and, coming decade promises to see increased competition in my view, they will sound hollow in the face of the as other cities such as Paris, New York and Hong failure to be able to do justice in private family law Kong aspire to compete with London as a world disputes. Clause 40 of Magna Carta, written in 1215, leader in legal services. provided for access to justice, which is not achieved in We also face legislative threats such as the common 2014. I am so glad that I am not a judge any more and European sales law being proposed by the European do not have to sort out these problems. When other Commission as an EU civil law alternative to English countries look across the Atlantic or the channel at common law. Protectionist regulations in growth markets the system of family law in England and Wales, they such as India and a number of other emerging markets will not applaud us. are, however, a major stumbling block, inhibiting the export of UK legal services and, indeed, opportunities 4.12 pm for their own lawyers. The profession and the Government Lord Clement-Jones (LD): MyLords,itisagreat have, rightly, made persuading emerging markets to pleasure to follow the noble and learned Baroness, tear down their barriers to entry a key priority. Staring Lady Butler-Sloss, in this terrific debate. I declare an in 2011, the Ministry of Justice’s Plan for Growth set interest as London managing partner of DLA Piper out the importance of English law and English legal and as a member and City ambassador of the Law services to the UK economy, and the need to open up Society. As the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said earlier overseas markets. in the debate, the rule of law in the English legal Our position in Europe is vital in achieving this system is a major source of British influence abroad, goal. Another benefit from the EU is the freedom of as the recent report by the Select Committee on soft establishment under the establishment directive. No power of this House made very clear. wonder that, according to a recent CBI survey, two-thirds I had the great pleasure recently of participating of law firms think that leaving the EU will have with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in a serious negative consequences. The challenges we face conference on the rule of law in Turkey, which was a to ensure that the UK remains the world leader in the very timely reminder in that country of the essential rule of law, in our standards of justice, in the provision values inherent in the concept of rule of law, and I of legal services and in the opportunities that exist in thank him for initiating this superb debate today. international jurisdictions are significant. However, Many noble Lords have mentioned the fact that next we can meet them if we heed today’s warnings. I hope year we are celebrating the 800th anniversary of Magna that we will be able to fulfil, as Ken Clarke said when Carta through the Global Law Summit and other he was Lord Chancellor, the UK ambition of becoming events. It is particularly important that we hand down lawyer and adviser to the world. this tradition to each new generation and that they are made aware of how precious it is. The rule of law is not only a philosophical ideal and 4.17 pm a bastion of individual rights. Our legal framework is Baroness Prashar (CB): My Lords, as a non-lawyer critical to economic development, to the creation of I feel like a gate-crasher into this lawyers’ and judges’ jobs and to a successful market economy. A key factor picnic. However, I do not regret having gate-crashed is the integrity and independence of the judiciary and, because, as I expected, this has been an informative, as my noble friend Lord Marks said, London has interesting and thoughtful debate. become a world leader in dispute resolution. English I am really delighted that the noble and learned legal practitioners are another reason for using English Lord, Lord Woolf, secured this debate a year before law. We have a long and well respected tradition of we mark the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta. He excellent legal services based on trust and performance. introduced the debate with his characteristic wisdom Huge effort over the past few years is beginning to and I agree with much of what he has said. The legal result in a much more diverse profession, with commitment system of the UK has made an enormous contribution to the PRIME initiative by an alliance of law firms to the international standing of the UK. We have much and legal departments across the United Kingdom to to be proud of and much to build on, but we must also broaden access to the legal profession. Pro bono ethos be watchful of what other noble Lords have said. 351 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 352

[BARONESS PRASHAR] 4.22 pm While we can look with pride at the great history of Lord Ramsbotham (CB): My Lords, like my noble our legal system and the contribution that it has made friend Lady Prashar, I feel that I am gate-crashing a to the world, we can also look forward to the huge debate for which I am very much not qualified to take contribution that our legal system can make in a world part. It reminds me of a defence debate in which it was which faces significant challenges. By so doing, we can calculated that 36 stars had taken part, so others felt remain aware of what it is that we have to cherish in somehow excluded. Rather than the picnic referred to our own country. by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, The late Lord Bingham, in his brilliant book The however, I regard this turnout as a tribute both to the Rule of Law, said, importance of the subject and to the admiration and respect with which my noble and learned friend Lord “the rule of law is not fixed for all time. Some countries do not subscribe to it fully, and some subscribe only in name, if that. Woolf is held in this House. I join those who have Even those who do subscribe to it find it difficult to apply all its congratulated and thanked him for this debate. precepts quite all the time. But in a world divided by differences of I propose to base my remarks purely on the nationality, race, colour, religion and wealth it is one of the contribution that the observance of the rule of law has greatest unifying factors, perhaps the greatest, the nearest we are likely to approach to a universal secular religion. It remains an made to the international standing of the United ideal, but an ideal worth striving for, in the interests of good Kingdom. However, I fully agree with those who have government and peace, at home and in the world at large”. expressed their concern about the creeping erosion of judicial independence and discretion. The question is how we should continue to strive for it here and abroad. The answer is by example; by adhering Like the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley to the rule of law; by constant vigilance; by maintaining Abbotts, I have to declare an interest as I am a the standards and the independence of our judiciary, member of the Select Committee on Soft Power and and by the excellence of our judiciary and legal profession. the UK’s Influence, which has already been referred It is also by continuing to engage with international to. I am not going to repeat that judgment but merely bodies such as the United Nations, the Commonwealth want to say that one of the most powerful pieces of and other professional organisations to promote the evidence we heard was from the High Commissioner rule of law. of Mozambique, who described why Mozambique had applied to join the Commonwealth. Top of the list The rule of law, however, does not emanate just was the rule of law. This supports absolutely what my from state-based legal institutions but from wider noble and learned friend Lord Judge said. socio-political norms and relationships. While focus on legal institutions, writing of constitutions, laws, I want to talk about just two aspects. I was very training of lawyers and reforming the judiciary is interested in what the noble and learned Lord, Lord necessary, it is not enough. Attention needs to be paid Morris of Aberavon, said about his experience with to value systems and informal justice systems and to Kosovo. Today’s Armed Forces are in a very difficult the wider political and social structures in which judicial position. The law of armed conflict and the Geneva institutions are embedded. It needs to address power Convention were drawn up to apply to combat in a relations and entrenched interests, as well as how place of war between armed forces representing nations, state-based legal systems articulate with customary and not for what is currently happening, which is law and informal justice practices. referred to as “war among the people”. That is confusing because if a soldier breaches the law, he should, quite The British Council—and I declare an interest as its rightly, be arraigned under the law. deputy chair—has worked and is working in countries I well remember spending a considerable amount of where there might be more than one legal system in time while on operations—for example, in Northern operation or where informal justice systems co-exist Ireland—on making absolutely certain that every single alongside more or less effective state institutions. The member of my battalion understood the rule of law. approach adopted by the British Council is subtle and Not only was it explained to him but afterwards he inclusive. It is one that understands and values UK carried it—in the form of a little yellow card— in his experience, but is able to apply it on the ground in pocket to make certain that he would always know it. partnership, working with local actors and with the That applied on the streets of Northern Ireland, where grain of local culture and context. This engagement we were working with the police; it does not apply so by the British Council has shaped its understanding of much in some of the situations with which soldiers are the link between justice, development and economic currently faced. However, it is absolutely certain that if growth, and how to achieve that through subtle and any member of the Armed Forces does breach the law, oblique approaches, rather than by hard selling. they risk undermining the reputation of the United I am delighted that the British Council is a partner Kingdom. That happened in the disgraceful affair in in the Global Law Summit, an international legal Iraq, which has been discoloured by the finding that conference to be held in London next February. This so many of the witnesses were corrupted, as it were, conference will be celebrating 800 years of our legal into giving evidence and demanding compensation, history, showcasing the British offer and advancing and, of course, in the recent sentencing of a Marine our shared understanding of how to promote the rule sergeant for murder. of law worldwide. We are proud to be working with It is essential that our Armed Forces should be other partners to enhance the international standing aware that there is all the difference in the world—as of the UK and its legal system and the observance of Sir Michael Howard, the distinguished historian, pointed the law in this country and abroad. out—between the Roman words bellum, which is the 353 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 354 legal use of force between nations, which is one description subject matter in dispute, causing financial ruin to the of war, and guerra, which is the illegal use of force in a parties. Valiant attempts to limit and reduce costs, nation. To declare war on terror and on drugs, which such as the reforms proposed in 1999 by the noble and are neither bellum nor guerra, is confusing to the learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the proposal of Lord Armed Forces, which have to exercise the rule of law. Justice Jackson, implemented in 2013, have not prevented The second area to which I shall refer is the criminal the seemingly inexorable rise in costs. At the same justice system. As we all know, this system consists of time, according to the Government’s own figures, when the police, the courts, prisons and probation—but it is the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders a system, as a whole. My noble and learned friend Act became effective in April 2013, legal aid was no Lord Woolf referred to the legal element of the system. longer available to some 600,000 of the million or so I just want to say that I am very concerned that, as the who previously qualified. noble Lord, Lord Lester, and my noble and learned Our legal system has become dysfunctional. Why? I friend Lord Brown have said, it is quite wrong if the will mention some plausible explanations. Losers have Government are seen to be breaking the law as regards to pay winners’ costs, so costs are ratcheted up. Once the criminal justice system. Noble Lords have mentioned you start to litigate, you have to go on to the bitter the deliberate problem around voting rights for prisoners. end, because abandoning your case half way means I would add to that the disgraceful procrastination you are the loser. Lawyers, who charge by the hour, over the numbers of prisoners who are held on indefinite have no compelling incentive to limit costs. Even when sentences for public protection, a subject which has they want or try to, they have to react to opponents’ been raised many times. moves. I am also extremely alarmed that in the current The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who I Criminal Justice and Courts Bill, which is coming have always greatly admired, put forward reforms that towards us, there is a defiance of a Supreme Court offered hope by giving judges control over litigation to ruling on the allowance of the use of force on children see that it was conducted efficiently and economically. to instil good order and discipline. It is worrying So why have costs risen even higher? I am told that a because, instead of the Lord Chancellor seeming to major reason is that there is now much more litigation resist any failure to observe the rule of law, the breaches about costs themselves, which can be very large. Lord of the rule of law seem to be coming from the man Justice Jackson was asked to review the rules and who is responsible for the rule of law. Not only does it principles governing those costs, and judges now have send the wrong message about the United Kingdom’s discretion over their awards in the light of the conduct observation of the rule of law; it sends exactly the of the parties. However, this leads only to more jockeying wrong message to those who are imprisoned because and argument about costs, adding to their total. The they themselves have failed to observe the law. sad fact is that the amount of litigation about costs 4.28 pm has no parallel in any other country. Lord Taverne (LD): My Lords, I, too, speak on this Once the issues have been defined, the parties’ topic in this august legal gathering with hesitation and lawyers must provide the court with estimates of the misgiving. I last practised law in 1966 and had only cost of running the entire case, which the court must 12 years at the Bar and one year as a Silk, practising review and approve to make sure costs are not mainly before that friendly god the Judicial Committee disproportionate. Budgets are approved at the first of the Privy Council. I was then lucky enough to case management conference after the close of pleadings, become a Minister at the Home Office in that glorious but this means that would-be litigants have to retain period between 1966 and 1967 when Roy Jenkins was lawyers to start proceedings and work out budgets. Home Secretary, which was the greatest period of law They have to commit themselves to proceedings that reform since the Second World War. Since then, however, may be very expensive, without any idea of what they I have not been directly concerned with the law. It has will eventually cost. Who wants to go to law if their changed profoundly, and whatever law I once knew I means are limited? have forgotten—hence my hesitation, especially since No wonder there has been a vast rise in the number I shall voice some critical comments. of litigants in person—but litigation demands legal I believe that recent discussions about our legal knowledge and expertise in court procedure. Those system have missed one very important point. The who argue their own case without either are almost Government rightly argue that the cost of legal aid bound to be less likely to obtain justice. Inevitably, has soared and must be controlled. Lawyers and others cases argued in person also take much longer and add concerned with justice rightly complain that cuts in to the costs of administration. legal aid have restricted access to justice—a fundamental What should be done? First, I have always had right in a democracy—but no one blames the legal doubts that the public are best served by lawyers being system. I fear that we can no longer claim that the paid on the taxi-meter principle: by the hour. More legal system in England and Wales is a model for the importantly, there should be a major review of the rest of the world, in at least one very important administration of civil justice. It is perhaps the oldest respect. I shall restrict my comments to civil litigation, public service. Access to justice at reasonable cost is a but I believe equally valid criticisms can be made of vital principle, and the fact that it is no longer available proceedings in criminal cases. undermines our claims to be a civilised society. Yet The costs of litigation are not only exceptionally this public service has never been independently reviewed. high by international comparisons, but unpredictable Of course lawyers must play a major part in any and can end up being out of all proportion as a review, but they should not themselves be the final 355 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 356

[LORD TAVERNE] When I joined Admiralty Chambers, then situated arbiters of how the public can best be served. There is at 2 Essex Court, we had only one Silk, and when something seriously wrong with a system in which, to 10 years later I moved to 1 Brick Court we had only litigate, you have to be a plutocrat or a pauper. two. Now, Quadrant Chambers, the successor to 2 Essex Court, has 19 Silks and Brick Court Chambers no less than 36. Barristers from these and similar sets of 4.34 pm chambers are appearing not merely in the courts of Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers (CB): My Lords, this country but in arbitrations around the world one of the first visitors that I had when the Supreme where contracts governed by English law are being Court opened its doors in 2009 was Andrew Li, the arbitrated. Today, we have heard from the legal Chief Justice of the Court of Final Appeal in Hong globetrotter, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about his Kong. He had come to ask me whether I would permit many appearances around the globe. two justices of the Supreme Court to spend a month Several sets of chambers have set up satellite chambers each year sitting as non-permanent judges of his court. in Maxwell Chambers in Singapore as a base for I hesitated for a moment, wondering whose permission operating there. Today, the influence of English law I should seek in relation to this request, and then I and English lawyers in dispute resolution is largely realised that there was no one. I was truly independent. latent because the resolution is taking place in private It was a rather heady moment and I unhesitatingly arbitrations. agreed. Could there be any better contribution to the The growth of City of London law firms has been rule of law than to export two members of the United even more remarkable. Fifty years ago, these were Kingdom Supreme Court to buttress the independence modest partnerships. Indeed, the number of partners and standing of the impressive Court of Final Appeal was limited by law. All the partners knew each other in Hong Kong? well. The large international law firms were based on My successor, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wall Street. For 2013 the annual report of Clifford Neuberger, not only endorsed my decision but goes Chance records that the average number of partners himself to sit in Hong Kong in the long vacation. during the year was 411. That firm is but one of a There are now no less than seven Members of this House, number of giant law firms that have their base in of whom I am one, who sit each year in the Hong London, but the offices of these firms are to be found Kong court in China. That is really rather remarkable, in almost every major trading city of the world. and there is no better illustration of the worldwide What is the explanation for the international pre- impact of English law and English lawyers. Another eminence of English commercial law and lawyers? I illustration is the recent invitations by Mauritius believe that it is twofold. English law is attractive to and the Bahamas, at their expense, to the Judicial commercial men because much of it has been custom- Committee of the Privy Council to go and sit in their made by outstanding common-law judges, often sitting countries, thus demonstrating their devotion to the in the Appellate Committee of this House, who cut rule of law. their judicial teeth in our world-famous Commercial Last Thursday, this House debated the importance Court. Today, 50% of the contracts concluded around of the manufacturing industry to this country. Today, the world are governed, by the choice of the parties, by thanks to the initiative of my noble and learned friend English law. Lord Woolf, we have the opportunity to consider the The other is the recognised integrity of English contribution that English law and English lawyers lawyers, which owes much, I believe, to the influence make not merely to this country but to the world. My of the Inns of Court and the Law Society, and to the noble and learned friend Lord Woolf himself exemplifies importance accorded to the rule of law in this country that contribution. As the House heard, on his retirement which Parliament and the Executive must never cease as Lord Chief Justice he was immediately invited by to respect and uphold. We should all be grateful to the the Emir of Qatar to set up an international commercial noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, for underlining court in Doha—where, as on other occasions, I have the importance of this. followed in his footsteps. That was not the first such court in the Middle 4.40 pm East. In 2004, Dubai set up an English language court, Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, of course, I join applying common law in the resolution of commercial others in your Lordships’ House in congratulating the disputes. The first Chief Justice of that court was noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and thanking Sir Anthony Evans, a distinguished commercial judge him for giving us the opportunity of an important and who had sat in the English Court of Appeal. These very well informed debate. courts are an indication of the high regard in which The reputation of our English legal system stands English commercial law and English commercial lawyers as high as it does precisely because of the wisdom, are held around the world, and my short speech will expertise and independence of our judiciary, as exemplified focus on commercial law. by the contributions to this debate of noble and learned The most remarkable development during my life Lords who have played such an important part in the in the law has been the growth of English commercial development of our jurisprudence and, indeed, to the lawyers. When I started at the Bar some 50 years ago, deliberations of this House. It is a matter of deep there was a handful of commercial Silks who appeared regret that in a number of respects that reputation is in the commercial court and occasionally on what was under threat from government policies reflecting a known as the Hong Kong circuit—the courts of Hong growing indifference—perhaps even hostility—to some Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. of the cardinal principles that lie at its heart. 357 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 358

As we are frequently reminded, next year sees the 20th century. Yet, increasingly, a disturbing trend has 800th anniversary of the sealing of Magna Carta—a emerged in which human rights are devalued and the document that has acquired an iconic, not to say role of the convention is disparaged in the very country almost mythical resonance as a charter of liberties. which did so much to advance them. As the noble and Only three clauses survive unchanged over the centuries, learned Lord, Lord Woolf, pointed out, if England is the most important perhaps being the pledge to, to be true to its heritage, which is a commitment to “sell to no man … either justice or right”. the rule of law, it has to be, and has to be seen to be, I shall refer later to the issue of whether and to what a champion of human rights. Making the human extent the positive version of the provision, which rights convention part of our domestic law has proved might be encapsulated in a pledge to ensure access to a great success. He observed that it embodies very justice or right, is currently under threat. I am grateful much the same values that have been recognised by to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for reminding the common law for centuries. And to those who us that one of the provisions was to render the king denigrate the convention, the late Lord Bingham asked, subject to law. again in The Rule of Law, which of the rights would be discarded. In his book The Pursuit of Justice, the noble and But rather than cherish these rights, the Government learned Lord, Lord Woolf, described Magna Carta as, see in our judicial system a commodity to be traded. “a symbol for the values of the common law, remarkable because Access to justice for hundreds of thousands of citizens it is such an historical statement of the fundamental principles of a year is made hugely more difficult while foreign the rule of law”. litigants are rightly encouraged to use our skilled As he said in the book and again today, it is one lawyers and our courts to resolve their differences. adopted by other, later jurisdictions from the USA to Justice is in danger of being seen primarily as a India. Lord Bingham, who alas is no longer with us, commodity and thus as a contributor to our balance records in The Rule of Law that Magna Carta was of payments, welcome of course though that contribution cited in no fewer than 60 United States Supreme is, and a tribute as it is to the skill and experience of Court judgments between 1940 and 1990. I cannot our practising lawyers and the judiciary. However, resist quoting the memorable line of Tony Hancock’s while these litigants—Russian oligarchs and others—enjoy jury foreman in a parody of “Twelve Angry Men”: a Rolls-Royce service, our citizens are having to contend “Magna Carta … Did she die in vain?”. with an increasingly inefficient and ineffective system. However, the common law, powerful and flexible as The problems of criminal law practitioners and the it has been, and instrumental alongside the independence future of the criminal Bar in particular have been and integrity of our judiciary in earning the admiration referred to frequently, and notably today by the noble of other countries and their jurists, does not stand and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. We have the chaos in alone, nor is it immune from threats which seem to be the recently reorganised and fragmented probation growing in number and intensity. We have debated service, and in our overcrowded prisons in which we many times in recent years and months the vexed house, after a fashion, more people per head of population question of access to justice, particularly in the light of than any other EU country and with a lower age of the steady and continuing undermining of judicial criminal responsibility. These are conditions which are review—referred to by a number of noble Lords today, little short of scandalous. including the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord The situation in our civil courts is also very worrying. Marks—which we will be debating in the Criminal As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, Justice and Courts Bill, and the erosion of the availability has pointed out, there is growing concern over the of legal aid and advice in the courts and tribunal number of litigants in person, especially in the field of system. Whole swathes of rights and remedies are family law. Last week I attended the opening of a now beyond the reach of many of our citizens, unless personal support unit offering non-legal support to they have the means to pay for legal services, or the litigants in person at Newcastle Crown Court. At that good fortune to obtain advice and support from an event Lord Justice Briggs confirmed that the issue of increasingly overloaded and underresourced voluntary delays and costs of unrepresented litigants in person sector. was becoming a serious matter, as the noble and On 21 July we will be debating the latest road block learned Baroness reminded us in the debate. to be placed on the road to justice—the residence test These problems are also affecting other parts of the for legal aid—set to deprive even children, admittedly civil justice system. I am indebted to Patrick Allen only those over the age of 12 months, of support if from the leading solicitors’ firm Hodge Jones & Allen they have been resident for less than a year. It might be for an update on some other aspects. It appears that thought that that is another example of the politics of papers can be lodged in a county court, date-stamped the dog whistle, which in the view of the Joint Committee and sent to Salford, because that is where all matters on Human Rights is in flagrant violation of the European now have to be routed, where they will again be Convention on Human Rights. That convention is date-stamped but not necessarily issued before deadlines very much the United Kingdom’s contribution to the have expired, thereby creating the risk of a case being post-war construction of a democratic Europe in which out of time unless the High Court extends it. The the rule of law has become the cornerstone of civic savings to be engendered by this new procedure, all of and judicial structures, and we all owe a Conservative £3 million to £4 million a year, are not even going to be politician who became the Lord Chancellor, Sir David recycled into the system, as the Civil Justice Committee Maxwell Fyfe and later Viscount Kilmuir, an enormous of the Law Society has been told. The promised but debt for what became in effect the Magna Carta of the belated investment in IT, some £75 million over five 359 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 360

[LORD BEECHAM] I first address the question of the rule of law and years, is to be prioritised for the commercial court. We our constitution. It is crucial to recognise that the rule can understand the incentive for doing that, but equally of law is at the heart of the British constitution, if all the resources go in that direction there will be underpinning a fair and just society in which citizens, little prospect of improving matters for domestic litigants. businesses and civil society can help our nation In addition, the problems of the decision in the prosper. As many noble Lords reminded us, next year Mitchell case, which imposed what many think were sees the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, a disproportionate sanctions for failure to meet rigid document of great symbolic importance. It established deadlines under the Jackson rules, has led to all the principle, among others, that executive power is co-operation between parties being withdrawn. I not above the law. understand that the position is to be reviewed, and I The 800th anniversary of the sealing of the charter am sure that the profession more generally will be affords us an opportunity to reflect on and celebrate awaiting the outcome with great interest. It seems that, its values. The Government are working with the as the noble Lord, Lord Marks, rightly referred to, the Magna Carta 800th Committee to organise system of arbitration is being developed. Apparently commemorative events, which I am sure that many the new and very effective approach of an alternative noble Lords are greatly anticipating. Magna Carta arbitration system has been developed by a leading began to chart the boundaries of the relationship Silk, Andrew Ritchie QC, which will be cheaper, quicker, between the state and the individual, a dialogue that and more collaborative. It is to be hoped that that will persists to this day. Much of what we do here in have some impact. Parliament concerns the defining of the limits of state The frustration experienced in the civil and criminal power when it represents a potential threat to individual courts also extends to the magistracy, where local liberty. justice is perceived as under threat from court closures, large benches and more full-time district judges. The Today the rule of law ensures that all, including the system of which we have been so justly proud, and Executive, are subject to a clear, certain and accessible which other jurisdictions have so often sought to body of law, determined by Parliament and interpreted emulate, is under threat as never before. This threat is and applied by an independent and impartial judiciary not from a medieval monarch, but from an obtuse in a timely manner. The Lord Chancellor is under an ministry which seems prepared only to pay lip service oath to respect the rule of law, providing Britain with to the tradition of centuries and the adjustments a system that protects the rights of citizens with respect required to reflect and cater for changing needs in our to the state in areas of public law, and to provide for evolving society. The question at next year’s celebration the fair and reliable resolution of private disputes. We will not be: have a judiciary with statutory safeguards through the Constitutional Reform Act 2005. Its members are “Magna Carta … Did she die in vain?”, independent of the Executive and of each other, and but “Magna Carta—does its spirit live on?”. If not, this allows for the law to be interpreted and applied where stands the reputation of our much admired impartially. It is to the great pride of our country that legal system? our judiciary is held in the highest regard, not merely here but throughout the world. The quality of our 4.51 pm judiciary and its incorruptibility is something that we should never take for granted. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Furthermore, the Lord Chancellor has the duty to Lord Woolf, for affording the House the opportunity provide an efficient and effective system to support the to discuss the United Kingdom’s legal systems. As business of the courts and tribunals. There has been many noble Lords have said, his contribution to the considerable criticism not only of the Lord Chancellor justice system has been highly significant. The noble and the role that he now performs as Secretary of Baroness, Lady Flather, chose her dining companions State but of the holder of that office. Indeed, the well in those days. I will not repeat the many tributes, Lords Constitution Committee is to conduct an inquiry but they were all justly described. However, I also say into the office of Lord Chancellor. The Ministry of that the Government welcome not only the contributions Justice will provide evidence to the committee in due today from distinguished lawyers and judges but also course on that issue. those from non-lawyers, because of course the law does not belong to lawyers or judges, but to all of us. It is our shared understanding of, and respect for, the constitutional principles that I have outlined that This has been a rich debate, full of legal history and enables the judiciary and Executive to work in partnership the history of legal maxims, the development of Magna in the delivery of justice so that it can continue to be Carta and the protection of rights since. Material for administered efficiently and effectively. many debates has indeed been provided by the contributions of noble Lords. However, I am sure that The noble Lord, Lord Marks, criticised the lack of one thing on which the whole House can agree is that diversity in our judiciary. It is true that, in the High our legal institutions and services are a vital part of Court, 21 women out of 108 is not a happy percentage—in the constitution. As a result of their deserved reputation the circuit Bench, one in six is a woman from a total for integrity and excellence, the influence of our legal number of judges of 654—but I am glad to tell the institutions and services reaches across the world. House that there has been a considerable increase in They not only shape other jurisdictions but also provide the number of appointments of women to the Bench the conditions for commerce to flourish. recently. 361 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 362

A number of noble Lords raised the subject of I could discuss the rule of law in more detail. It was judicial review and changes that the Government wish elegantly discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Plant, to bring about by the Bill that is currently before your and there has been repeated reference, quite rightly, to Lordships’ House. I have been well and truly put on Lord Bingham’s great work The Rule of Law, which I notice that there are a number of aspects of Part 4 of am sure will be read for many years to come. that Bill about which there is concern. I hope that There are few better illustrations of the strength of noble Lords will forgive me if I do not give a full our legal services than their overseas influence. The response to all the potential criticism at this stage, but rule of law provides the best environment for the that would be only a dress rehearsal for what may nourishment of commerce and economic growth. In follow. I well understand the depth of concern about turn, this assists the growth of business and wealth judicial review. I hope, however, that when we come to around the world. As the noble and learned Lord, debate that issue, all noble Lords, whether with a legal Lord Woolf, will be well aware from his own experience, or other background, will bear in mind that there are the expertise of our practitioners, coupled with the perceived by some people, rightly or wrongly, to be enduring strength of our legal institutions, is sought areas of judicial review where it has made incursions by many clients across the world. We should also beyond those which those who developed the doctrine remember the influence of many legal professionals originally anticipated. However, I should make it clear who, having qualified in the United Kingdom, return that the Government, and certainly any Government to their home countries and bring their education and of which I am a part, do not wish to abolish judicial expertise back to enrich their own jurisdiction. Our review, contrary to what is occasionally written in the legal practitioners, and those who train here, benefit press, but value it as an essential part of the constitution. not only the United Kingdom but all the jurisdictions A number of noble Lords raised the question of in which they work. human rights, not least my noble friend Lord Lester, The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, rightly of whom I was a colleague on the Human Rights commended the work of the Judicial College and its Commission. Rightly, attention was drawn to the terms increasing reputation abroad. He was too modest to of the European Convention and those who drafted it. mention his own significant role in training judges. I I know that very few politicians or lawyers on any must declare an interest as a nervous assistant recorder political wing would quarrel with the convention itself. who was inspired by him to set about the difficult task What, however, is more open to debate is the relationship of sitting as a judge, and who listened to his stirring between the Strasbourg court and our courts. It is a speech about the dissenting judgment of Lord Atkin legitimate reason for debate and a matter on which a in Liversidge v Anderson. The noble and learned number of people on all sides of the political divide Lord, Lord Walker, rightly reminded us of the importance have expressed a view: whether the Supreme Court of advocacy training, and how this is a skill that we should be the ultimate arbiter of these things and are spreading beyond our shores. whether Section 2 has either been wrongly interpreted or should be amended. However, I should make it English contract law has long enjoyed an excellent clear that this coalition Government have no intention reputation. Its combination of consistency and flexibility, to repeal or amend the Human Rights Act. backed by courts that are independent, impartial and able to enforce their judgments, ensures that it is There was also considerable criticism of the cuts in favoured by many businesses around the world. The legal aid. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, told your Lordships fear, was right when he anticipated that I would mention about the positive explosion of commercial law since austerity, which indeed I do. The Government attempted he began in practice. to identify those areas where legal aid was most needed and those areas where it should be possible—if not As a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, sometimes difficult, as we accept—for those needing I am pleased to say that a particular strength of our on the face of it some legal assistance to manage by legal services is arbitration. In a 2010 survey, London other means. was voted the preferred seat of arbitration by an international audience, and we will strive to ensure The full effect of the legal aid cuts will take some that international lawyers and business continue to little time to assess. The Government are committed take advantage of our expertise and state of the art to reviewing this within five years—but it might be facilities when resolving disputes. better to specify a period of three to five years from the implementation of the reforms in April 2013. The Noble Lords will need little further elucidation of difficulty with making any assessment is that there was the strength of London, with its diverse range of a considerable spike in the number of claims started practitioners, close links to the City and fine modern just before that date, so it is almost impossible to form facilities such as the Rolls Building. But as this debate a clear view of the effect. is on UK legal services, I should add that there are high-quality providers in centres such as Edinburgh, Of course I share with all noble Lords the concern Glasgow, Belfast, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, that access to justice should not be denied. Indeed, I, Manchester and Liverpool, offering choice and value with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, was part of a to a variety of clients in a wide variety of sectors. It is group of Peers who were behind an amendment to the important to point out that some legal activity—in LASPO Bill to say that when economic circumstances fact, quite a lot of legal activity—is carried out on a changed, the Lord Chancellor should consider enlarging pro bono basis, as the professions generously provide the scope of legal aid. I hope that that is indeed the their expertise to those who could not otherwise afford position. to use their services. 363 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[LORDS] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 364

[LORD FAULKS] international law and conflict. It was reassuring and The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, stated the encouraging to hear that the rule of law as we understand ambition that we should become lawyers and advisers it is making a great contribution even in the complex to the world. He was right to remind us of the level of scenarios that international conflict continues to exports accounted for by legal services. They were throw up. estimated to generate £20.4 billion for the UK economy Our system has much in it to be admired but, as the in 2012, of which just under £4 billion were exports. I noble Lord, Lord Taverne, told us, it is expensive. The am not sure how much of that was contributed by the expense of litigating can mean—as he rightly said, it one-man export drive that is the noble Lord, Lord has often meant in the past—that it is only the very Pannick. Of course, the influence goes further in terms rich or those on legal aid who can afford to litigate of soft power—referred to by the noble Lord, Lord at all. Ramsbotham and my noble friend Lord Hodgson— The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, made a together with the export of judges, referred to by the great contribution to improving the legal system by noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips. the Civil Procedure Rules, but I am sure that he would I am delighted to draw your Lordships’ attention to be the first to admit that it is not beyond further two exciting events that will be taking place in the improvement. Various initiatives such as cost capping United Kingdom in 2015. In April 2015, Glasgow will are helping. The reforms in Part 2 of LASPO, which host the Commonwealth Law Conference. The conference implemented the Jackson report, are beginning to has the overarching themes of resources, responsibilities have their effect. The use of qualified one-way cost and the rule of law. It is organised by the Commonwealth shifting and the reduction of the recoverability of Lawyers Association and the Law Society of Scotland, ATE premiums in conditional fees have made it a little and I am certain that it will draw a strong attendance more economical to litigate. This area is a matter of from across the Commonwealth, with whom we share great concern to any Government. It is a matter, one so much legal heritage. As the noble Baroness, Lady hopes, of co-operation between government, the judiciary Prashar, reminded us, in February 2015, London will and lawyers to ensure that we have a system that host the Global Law Summit. This one-off conference maintains accessibility to all. will examine how the principles of Magna Carta offer The global summit, to which I referred, marks an innovative solutions to achieve commercial, political apt point at which to conclude my remarks. It reflects and social goals. It will also provide outstanding the enduring relevance of our constitutional heritage opportunities for business and collaborative working. while providing an opportunity for the UK legal service The venture has wide support among my government to continue to demonstrate its prowess across the colleagues, the legal professions in this country and globe. Our system has many admirers. To continue business. Indeed, we are expecting more than the quote from the John of Gaunt speech started by 2,000 delegates, comprising political, business and legal the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, it is indeed a, leaders from across the world. “precious stone set in a silver sea”, Before concluding, I should pick up one or two points made by other noble Lords in the debate. My as indeed is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, noble friend Lord Marks referred to the importance of to whom I pay great tribute for initiating this televising court proceedings. That is a difficult area debate. about which I think that opinions can reasonably differ. I am not sure that everyone watching the Pistorius 5.11 pm trial would necessarily have been persuaded that televising Lord Woolf: My Lords, it is a pleasure to be able to trials was always in the public interest. say that this debate has exceeded all my expectations. We were rightly told by the noble and learned This is because of the quality and spirit in which Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, of the challenges that contributions have been made. It is not for me now to judges—in particular, those in the Family Division—face take up the time of the House by going over the in dealing with litigants in person, when disputes are various contributions, but I think that your Lordships so often acrimonious. She reminded the House that will forgive me if I echo one or two points that have there is still legal aid for mediation. Mediation has a been made. good story to tell, although I accept that it is not First, I particularly thank those who are not lawyers always the answer. Much needs to be done to improve who have taken part in this debate. Their contributions the lot of litigants in person who, I accept, must were of huge value and the debate would have been inevitably be a greater feature of the legal landscape. I the lesser without them. I also congratulate those pay tribute to the judiciary as being most helpful, noble Lords who managed to take part in two together with court officials, in developing systems. In debates this afternoon and made very distinguished the High Court of Justice and other courts, increasing contributions to each. I was much moved by the idea help is to be had for litigants. There is improvement of of this being a picnic, and I was wondering what we access via computer and signposting to assist those could bring as presents for people to take away from who need help. The Government are expecting reports the picnic after it is over. I am very glad that the from two High Court judges on the problems confronted Minister was able to provide us with something to by the courts in dealing with litigants in person. That take away—I will certainly regard it as an important is a matter that should certainly be kept under review. contribution, as I know will many other noble Lords We also heard from the noble Lord, Lord here—in his assurance that the Government have Ramsbotham, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord no intention to either repeal or amend the Human Morris, about the contribution of the rule of law to Rights Act. 365 Legal Systems: Rule of Law[10 JULY 2014] Legal Systems: Rule of Law 366

I think that both the spokesman for the Opposition when I had the huge advantage of having the noble and the Minister also deserve to be congratulated on Baroness, Lady Flather, as a fellow student. I am the way that they have tackled the issues before us in bound to say, and know only too well, that she has this debate. I agree with the Minister that there is a lot weathered over the years so much better than I have. left to argue over, which will no doubt occur within this Chamber in the future. I do not think that there Motion agreed. will be reference again to the days when I was a student so long ago in University College London, House adjourned at 5.14 pm.

GC 155 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 156

interest. However, we are agin this proposal, and I Grand Committee shall go on to explain, as clearly as I can, why. It seems quite unnecessary to give an authorised person, Thursday, 10 July 2014. “to determine whether to offer to enter into a species agreement with a person”, Infrastructure Bill [HL] this excessive right to demand entry. Surely powers of entry must be handled delicately. As a liberal-minded Committee (3rd Day) socialist, I would say that powers of entry should always be handled delicately, because the citizen in a 2pm democratic state has rights. There needs to be a balance Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Delegated between the interests or rights of the property owner Powers Committee and the rights of environmental authorities wanting to eradicate invasive non-native species. Of course, we are all with the Bill in its attempt to Clause 16: Invasive non-native species tackle what we all recognise is a very severe problem, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness but the authorised person would be seeking to obtain Pitkeathley) (Lab): My Lords, welcome to the Grand an agreement. It does not seem right, therefore, to Committee on the Infrastructure Bill. allow a power of entry at an early stage in the process before the property owner might even be aware of the need to enter into a species agreement. The persons Amendment 71 not moved. concerned have not got anywhere near the negotiation stage; as far as one can see, they have not even necessarily Amendment 72 identified that there is a problem at all, but there could be this knock on the door from the authority. Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham In England and Wales, the entry on to private 72: Clause 16, page 16, leave out lines 5 and 6 property by any person is a trespass, unless consent is given or the entry is otherwise authorised by statute or Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, I shall by common law. It is also the case, of course, that this also speak to Amendment 73, with which Amendment 72 concept is enshrined in Article 8 of the European is grouped. Convention on Human Rights, which provides a right As I thought to construct a speech on this issue, I to respect for private home and family life. In this found myself in the most extraordinary philosophical respect, Article 8 can only be interfered with if it is and political position. All my political life, I have seen prescribed by law as a legitimate aim and is necessary the lines of conflict over issues drawn in the following in a democratic society. It is particularly difficult to way. Going back to Finance Bills in the 1970s, for describe species control agreements as a pressing social instance, I recall that the Labour Government were need for action. After all, if the concept anticipates an always accused of drawing up excessive invasive agreement as the achievement of the policy, what is powers—in particular for tax authorities to appropriate the pressing need for forthright rights of entry? Moreover, property—and the Conservative side was always expressing the Home Office’s powers of entry gateway, which the rights of the landowner and the liberal proposition regulates powers of entry, sets out tests which must be that the state should be kept at bay. In fact, on one satisfied, including “Necessity”, “Proportionality” and famous occasion, I remember a Conservative member “Safeguards”. Such powers should be used only when of the committee telling me, “If this amendment to necessary and not routinely, but these powers in the the Finance Bill is carried, there will be the knock on Bill are routine—they come in at first base, as it were, the citizen’s door and it will be the knock of the and condition the nature of action. French revolutionary of 1789 saying, ‘Ouvrez, au nom Will the Minister justify how allowing a power of de la République!’”, such were the terrors that were entry on to someone’s land merely to decide whether being visited upon the British in 1976. I had the to enter into an agreement fulfils the requirements set temerity—I was a PPS at the time—to suggest that the out in the European Convention on Human Rights? historical analogy did not quite hold up, not least The property holder is going to be asked to enter into because the French Republic was not declared until an agreement. Of course I recognise the problem that 1793, and therefore he was four years premature in may arise if agreements cannot be achieved and if the suggesting that the revolutionary was asking for entry threat to the wider society is significant—none of us is in the name of “la République”—after all, Louis XVI going to underestimate the damage which some invasive did not meet his death until 1793. species can do. We all know that it would be absolutely However, with this issue here, the position is exactly pointless if one householder dealt with Japanese knotweed reversed. The current Government are producing a alone. The capacity of one householder to deal with power of entry that we regard as being quite exceptionable Japanese knotweed alone beggars the mind, but if he and needing some mighty justification. I do not know did succeed in dealing with Japanese knotweed alone whether this proposal in the Bill has emerged from a it seems absurd to suggest that agreement would not Conservative Party that has gone soft on supporting be necessary. Next door would have to be involved; landholding interests or from the malign influence of otherwise, one would not have a solution and one those in the Liberal wing of the coalition, who have would be more likely to have a situation in which the decided that they should have regard to the landed problem was extended. GC 157 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 158

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] the provision. One of the things we are concerned It may be thought that I am being excessive in about is the need to think through the language that is challenging the Government on these issues and recalling used, as we do not want to encourage people to other occasions when these issues have been raised, “booby-trap”premises, as it were, with expensive systems when the boot has been on the other foot and I that would then have to be replaced. Therefore, I am watched Labour Ministers wrestle with arguments sympathetic to the intent of Amendment 73 but, given from landowners and Conservatives. The crucial issue the importance of being able to control invasive species, is that the Law Commission review addressed this we need to retain the powers in the Bill, which would issue and highlighted the fact that concerns were raised be negated by Amendment 72. regarding potential overuse of powers of entry. It concluded that there should be a formal safeguard against potential overuse of powers of entry. Of course, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to we subscribe to the objectives of the Bill with regard the Minister for her sensitive approach to Amendment 73. to tackling the problems caused by invasive species, We will look again at the wording of that amendment but we believe that we are entirely justified in probing to see whether we can persuade her to change her the limits of the power of entry as regards when and mind on that matter. It seems a pretty obvious thing to how it will be used. I beg to move. require that, if an authority moves in for the very good reasons that it would have in those circumstances, it should leave the place in the same order that it found The Minister of State, Department for Transport it. Otherwise, it seems that we are giving extraordinary (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Lords, I resist Amendment 72, powers to those who carry out this action. as circumstances may arise in which Natural England has reason to believe that a non-native invasive species is present on someone’s land but the owner denies 2.15 pm access to verify this. However, without that verification, On Amendment 72, the noble Baroness produced one cannot proceed to issue a control order. If there the Asian hornet. I will not deny that fact that I have is no voluntary agreement, the landowner can avoid never met an Asian hornet yet, but I am certainly the imposition of a control order. Typically, Natural persuaded that, if I did, it would be an extremely England will approach the landowner and give him at unpleasant experience and I would want to get rid of least 48 hours to respond. The reason for having this it. I did not spend an hour at Defra the other day tight benchmark is that sometimes one can determine without becoming increasingly nervous about the whether a non-native invasive species is present even things that I might bump into in the night. That was when one is off-site. However, that cannot always be probably the purpose of the exercise—or its secondary done, as sometimes the species is tiny and is therefore purpose. difficult to pick up in, for example, an aerial photograph. However, in those circumstances the officers carry The expectation is that arrangements will be voluntary with them clear evidence. They would not act and and collaborative with rare exceptions—for example, invade premises unless they had clear evidence of the in emergencies. The Committee will know about Asian threat they were to deal with. Would anybody turn hornets. We have almost the equivalent of an alert them down and say, “You cannot come here that day system around the country, watching out for the arrival because I am not scared of Asian hornets”? It is not of Asian hornets. I am advised that, if they are found, conceivable that that is how people would react. I am eradication needs to take place very rapidly, possibly not talking about minor things where it might take within 48 to 72 hours, or they will pose a threat to five years or so before their damage was visible. If native bees, with all the consequences that flow from what is being quoted is something that has arrived, is that. Therefore, on occasion, it is absolutely necessary evident and distinctly threatening to the environment, to move fast. It would be problematic to provide a I cannot see that the concept of the agreement necessary landowner with a mechanism to resist even entering is much more than a knock on the door, “We’ve come discussions about a voluntary agreement and therefore to solve an absolutely massive problem that you’ve to avoid triggering the process that would eventually got”, and, “Thank you very much”. After all, people lead to a control order. I fully recognise the issues that want rid of pests. Has anybody ever seen dear old have been raised. However, given the purpose of this ladies who have wasp nests in the lofts of their houses? legislation and the implications of allowing a rapidly They are absolutely terrified of what will happen increasing invasive species to get out of control, I ask unless the nests are removed that very day—despite the Committee to recognise that this power is necessary the fact that the wasp nest is most likely to have been and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. there several months or more. Amendment 73, which is also in this group, is I know that there are all sorts of awkward cases in slightly different. It would require an environmental society, particularly about property. However, the basis authority to ensure that, whenever it exercised a power of the action is to reach agreement with the property of entry, it must leave the premises as effectively holder. I still maintain that the one instance of the secured as they were on entry rather than, as stated in Asian hornet will not deflect me from the feeling and the Bill, to do so when the premises are unoccupied or belief that the Bill, as constructed at present, is not the owner is temporarily absent. We want very much acceptable to us. I will dwell on what the noble Baroness to ensure that unoccupied premises or premises where said and I know she has thought about these issues the owner is absent are left effectively secured. As very seriously, but so have we in constructing the regards Amendment 73, we take the point that there argument and we will go away and think about this as might be grounds for a more general application of well. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. GC 159 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 160

Amendment 72 withdrawn. year were to say, “We want more defences”. Why can we not get the helpful beaver to chip in with his little Amendment 73 not moved. bit? At the least, I am not quite sure why he is condemned outright before he has had the chance. It seems that the Government are obsessed with controlling Amendment 74 anything that they think to be a threat, without properly Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham assessing whether it is a threat or not—and certainly without even beginning to think that there might be 74: Clause 16, page 18, line 17, at end insert— benefits. “( ) the standards of animal welfare required when carrying out species control agreements and orders.” The Government do not have the best track record in following the advice of scientists, especially when it comes to the natural environment. Their failure over Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I move on to the badger culls, where they have been heavily criticised slightly gentler territory this time but of great import across a whole spectrum of informed opinion, is a nevertheless. We all recognise that, in seeking to do the clear example. We must make sure that species control right thing by wider society, we have real problems operations are conducted and introduced on the back about how the actions are to be carried out by the of a clause that enshrines the need to look at the authority. That is why Amendment 74 seeks to insert preservation of animal welfare. I am hopeful that the the words: Minister, while she might think it rare, will see this as a “the standards of animal welfare required when carrying out constructive amendment from the Official Opposition species control agreements and orders”. and look kindly upon it. I beg to move. I am sure the whole Committee will endorse the view that we must ensure that we abide by the highest Baroness Donaghy (Lab): My Lords, I support my level of protection for animal welfare. Concerns have noble friend. There was a good example in Australia, been raised by a number of bodies, including the which I could perhaps relay to the Committee. My National Farmers’ Union, Animal Aid and the National brother, who lives in housing association accommodation, Anti Snaring Campaign, which have all cited the threat was invaded by a possum. It was in his roof for about to animal welfare. We must be alert also to the fact three years before he was able to persuade the housing that these control orders might prevent farmers and association to do something about it. Of course, the growers being able to react to market opportunities by possum is a protected species but eventually along growing new varieties of crops. That is why those came Paul, the “Possum Whisperer”, whose job it was concerned with the countryside argue for an appropriate to persuade the possum to leave the premises without system of checks and balances to protect their interests. endangering the species. He did that without any harm I am not sure that the Bill meets that test at present. to the premises or to the possum, but the end of the The Government have failed to include anything in story was that the possum re-emerged slightly later, this schedule to protect animal rights, despite the fact next door but one. The neighbour knocked on my that we know that representations have been made by brother’s door and said, “Hey, I’ve got this possum—any the International Fund for Animal Welfare, the Woodland advice about how to get rid of it?”. My brother said, Trust and the Law Commission that the legislation “Well, Paul the Possum Whisperer is the person that should indeed provide for the inclusion of animal you need to go to”. So there was a job creator as well welfare provisions. I fail to see why these representations, as a very skilled person, who could act in a humane made while the Bill was being drawn up, have not way to protect the animal. It may be that the Government registered effectively with Ministers. could indulge in some job creation activity here by Perhaps that is to do with the fact that Ministers are creating skills such as sheep whisperers and beaver fresh from the horrors of the badger cull and the whisperers to get these animals off the premises without problems they had over that issue; there are also the any harm. This is a very good amendment, which we problems we have all had over dangerous dogs legislation should support. in recent years. However, the Government were quick to denounce the presence of beavers from sightings in Baroness Parminter (LD): On these Benches, we Devon and to suggest their ability to carry a disease have some sympathy with this amendment. When we when, from what I can see, the Government have are looking at how we take forward species control produced no proof or scientific evidence to back up agreements, it is important that some principles are set these contentions. What assessments do the Government up out front. While I would not go so far as the noble make when deciding whether an animal is considered Lord, Lord Davies, and talk about animal rights, we dangerous or harmful? Is the fact that it is just strange on these Benches support animal welfare. and new sufficient for forthright action to eliminate it? There are two reasons why this amendment has Reports show us that there is a case that animals some merit. First, we need these species control orders such as beavers might have an effect that is as positive to be effective and humane. That is where I have a as it is negative. I know that we all have to come to slight difference of opinion with the noble Lord, Lord terms with the development of new species when they Davies of Oldham. We may have disagreements about arrive. I am told that beavers would cause a great deal the outcomes of the Government’s badger-culling pilots, of trouble wherever floods were likely to occur, but I but the Government went in on the basis that the had thought that beavers were rather good at building pilots were to test whether a cull was effective, humane dams and that most of the demands being made from and safe. These species control orders should follow the Somerset Levels and elsewhere during the past the same principles of being effective and humane. GC 161 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 162

[BARONESS PARMINTER] 2.30 pm My second point, which may find more favour with Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to some in government, is that clearly whether species the Minister for those concluding remarks. Of course, control orders go ahead and the cost attached to them we accept the outcome of her investigation of the will depend on how they are undertaken. It is a damn situation. I think that that is a safer path, for her, than sight cheaper to free shoot than it is to trap and shoot. quoting the European Union control orders, which Whether a form of species control is humane will have might be a little inflammatory in some parts of the an impact on the cost. Therefore, when we are setting House, though not on my side. I beg leave to withdraw up the principles behind these species control agreements, the amendment. it is important that a marker is set down that they should be humane, because that will have an impact Amendment 74 withdrawn. on the cost, which will be determined on a case-by-case basis for these species control agreements. For those two reasons, this amendment has some Amendment 75 merit. Equally, I think it has the merit that it does not Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham stipulate the control method to be used for each of 75: Clause 16, page 18, line 21, at end insert “and the these species control agreements but talks about the Environmental Audit Committee of the House of Commons” principles for the code. That is what we should be doing. We should be setting down some fundamental principles in the code which can then be interpreted on Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this amendment a case-by-base basis for each of the species control and the others grouped with it seek to add to the list of agreements. those who have a crucial part to play. None of us has anything but great respect for the work of the Environmental Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Audit Committee in the other place, which has done a Davies of Oldham, is quite right that most people who tremendous job in reviewing invasive non-native species find that there is a non-native invasive species on their and highlighting what needs to be done and how we land are glad to co-operate. Unfortunately, about 5% can improve the situation. It would surely be hugely will not. We have experience of this, particularly in the beneficial to have it involved in the process of issuing, south-east, where it has been extremely difficult to get revising or replacing the codes of practice for invasive access when there has been a suspicion about the non-native species. That committee is on record as presence of the North American bullfrog, which eats being very supportive of the implementation of the every amphibian it comes across, and there have been Law Commission’sproposals and some time ago highlighted various problems caused by floating pennywort. the need for this to be a priority for the Government. Unfortunately, there is a history of non-co-operation We think that there is a clear role for that committee, with access as well as non-co-operation with eradication. particularly against the background of there being We have to be realistic about the consequences of that. more limited resources to hand for the Government in carrying out this crucial evaluative work. We are attempting to capture beavers and test them because the great fear is that they are Bavarian and Our remaining amendments involve the local come with an extremely nasty disease that is common authorities and local nature partnerships. The simple to Bavarian beavers. Frankly, I had not heard of it fact of the matter is that most local authorities do not before this Bill, but it is a zoonotic disease that I am have the capacity or the ability to assess biosecurity told one must avoid at all costs. risks and to take a proactive or intelligence-led approach to reducing them. Two-thirds of our local authorities Amendments 74 and 78 would require the respective no longer employ any ecologists, according to the codes of practice to set out the standards of animal Association of Local Government Ecologists. The welfare required when carrying out species control evidence suggests that ecological capacity within local agreements and orders. We agree that control operations government is stretched very thin indeed, but it has a need to be consistent with existing published government very wide policy agenda. We are here debating this Bill policy on the welfare of wild animals. Your Lordships because that agenda is extending, and we are trying to may wish to know that the EU invasive alien species respond to those difficulties. There is clearly an ecological regulation that is expected to come into force on 1 skills gap within the planning system and a clearer January 2015 requires that, understanding of the specialist ecological competence “animals are spared any avoidable pain, distress or suffering”, is required, especially in understanding exactly what in the carrying out of eradication or management the discharge of statutory obligations involves. Having measures for those species subject to the regulation. that clearer understanding would enable local government As the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, underscored, to allocate better its resources against the risks associated we have a very useful code of practice that is going to with the fact that it no longer has the level of technical play a very significant role in the use of these control expertise that it once had. When dealing with biosecurity orders. I give a commitment to take a look at that code issues such as diseases, pathogens and invasive non-native of practice and see whether there is a sensible way in species, 75% of local government ecologists indicate which to specify welfare obligations in that. If there is, that only “basic” or “capable” levels of competence we will come back with a response before Report, are required at that stage. There is a worry about the because it is our intent to make sure that animal ability of local authorities to play their part effectively, welfare is appropriately protected. I hope that that is and that is why we would like a reference to local sufficient reassurance to allow the amendment to be authorities in the Bill in addition to the crucial role of withdrawn. the Environmental Audit Committee. GC 163 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 164

It may be thought that I am putting enormous An ancient example will serve as an illustration. It is stress on a committee of the other place, but so much provided by a variety of grasshopper that was originally competence for dealing with these areas has been confined to the Middle East, which has latterly invaded swept away that inevitably we have recourse to those the entire African continent. This is the locust, of obvious locales where expertise exists and can be which the pestilential effects emerged when the advent called upon. The Environmental Audit Committee of agriculture upset an ecological balance. The Book report has been of the greatest significance in the of Joel in the Old Testament provides a graphic description development of policy. I am seeking to strengthen of a locust plague in the Middle East. the role of those who have some capacity to assist the The point that I wish to make is that we should Government, with their limited resources, in carrying approach the problem of ecological imbalance not by out the necessary functions under the Bill. I beg to programmes of localised pest control but in a holistic move. manner that takes a far wider ambit. Instead of relying on local pest control officers to deal with outbreaks of Viscount Hanworth (Lab): My Lords, the comments invasive species, we should be relying on our public that I wish to make may have some relevance to the sector research establishments to monitor our natural— codes of practice that will accompany the Bill. and our unnatural—environments so as to guard against Amendment 71, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord pestilential outbreaks and to suggest the necessary Berkeley, which has already been debated, could have countermeasures. This reinforces a point that has already been a cue in its own right for a wide-ranging and been made by my noble friend Lord Davies, and I interesting debate. hope that his comments might be taken into account The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, proposed the definition at a later stage when we come to review the Government’s of a species. A species is commonly defined as the deliberations. largest extent of a group of organisms that is capable Baroness Kramer: My Lords, those of us who were of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. That privileged to participate in the Defra visit the other is similar to the definition that the noble Lord, Lord today—an opportunity that many of your Lordships Berkeley, was advocating, which also mentioned the took up—will have been very impressed to see the care exchange of genes. However, his definition did not and control and the deliberate and constant testing include the fertility of the offspring as one of its and assessment that Defra uses before enabling any conditions. Moreover, we know that bacteria of widely biological controls to be used for some of these invasive differing species can exchange genes via plasmids, species. Obviously, that is one direction that is under which are small DNA molecules that can be separated examination for Japanese knotweed, that much-hated physically from the chromosomal DNA. One might plant, but it sits outside the scope of this legislation, wish to exclude bacteria from the definition. which focuses very much on new invasive species that These are abstruse matters and I do not wish to are not ordinarily resident and where there is a potential pursue them further. Instead, I propose that in place for eradication to succeed. The Bill has a narrower of “invasive non-native species”, the legislation should target, but other pieces of legislation sit alongside it be talking simply of “pests”. I assert that it is inappropriate that tackle, for example, invasive non-native species to talk only of non-native species. The objection might that are a threat to plant and animal health. So the Bill be raised that the word “pest” is too vague to serve the sits within a much broader context. purposes of this legislation. What is a pest in one The amendments focus on the need for wider context might be a harmless organism in another consultation on the code of practice. It has always context. However, this is one of the realities that ought been the Government’s intent to engage a great deal to be taken into account. I will mention the well with expertise, with stakeholders and with others on known example of the English rabbit. When transferred the code of practice, which will be a substantial and to Australia, it became a major pest that threatened complex document that will certainly need a great deal the viability of Australian agriculture. Rabbits destroyed of thought and care. We continue to think about how the grazing land and by eating native plants and we should carry out that engagement, and we would grasses exposed the top-soil and left it vulnerable to like to take a little more time to consider those issues, erosion. One way of overcoming an infestation is to including the option of undertaking a full public alter the ecology by introducing a predator of the pest, consultation on the code. I can commit that I will have or by some other means. In Australia in the 1950s, the a response on the issue before Report, but I assure ecology of the rabbits was altered radically by the your Lordships that it is our intent to have that kind of introduction of a malign myxoma virus, which causes intensive engagement, including with a number of myxomatosis in rabbits. parties that have been named today. We would like to The point I wish to make is that we need to consider take this away and think a little more on it, as the code pests within their ecological contexts, and ecology can of practice will be complex. However, it is indeed the be severely disturbed by inadvertent human interventions. Government’s wish to be able to tap into that expertise Often the effect of a human intervention is to diminish and thinking in order to make the code as effective as the diversity of the ecology by eliminating some of its possible. organisms, which may allow others to propagate without On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will feel restraint. Thus an organism that has hitherto been able to withdraw the amendment. regarded as harmless may become a pest as a consequence of such disruption. This is an ever present hazard in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to intensive modern agriculture. The matter of whether the Minister for her thoughtful and constructive response, an organism is native or non-native is beside the point. and I certainly beg leave to withdraw the amendment. GC 165 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 166

Amendment 75 withdrawn. political parties are now setting. It is agreed generally across the piece that it would be good to get to 200,000 Amendments 76 to 79 not moved. homes a year by 2021, but that is still some way short, by some 40,000 or 50,000 homes a year, in addition to Clause 16, as amended, agreed. the backlog of homes that we do not have. What is to be done? Remember that what looks to Amendment 79A be a target of 200,000 homes a year is far less than we achieved year by year in many decades in times past. It Moved by Lord Best (CB) is not a very big number. Even that target—200,000 79A: Before Clause 17, insert the following new Clause— homes a year—at the moment looks pretty ambitious. “Housing as nationally significant infrastructure This amendment seeks to improve the position in one relatively modest way, but one that could see more Within 12 months of the date on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State shall introduce a bill to change the homes built, homes built of better quality, bigger definition of “nationally significant infrastructure project” homes and homes that are more sustainable and set in in the Planning Act 2008, to include development a decent environment. If you develop at some scale, programmes that contain over 1,500 residential units.” you can do your affordable housing and combined heat and power plant and build in all those extra Lord Best (CB): My Lords, after hearing about ingredients that mean you are building not just houses Louis XVI, possum whisperers and a plague of locusts, but new communities. I think that Amendment 79A might bring us rather I declare past interests. I looked after the garden down to earth. village of New Earswick, built by Joseph Rowntree Amendment 79A seeks to include major housing and started in 1904. It was the precursor to the garden developments in the projects that can be defined as cities and used the same planners and architects as “nationally significant infrastructure projects”. The Letchworth and Welwyn. That relatively small community amendment would pave the way for the Bill to address of New Earswick village—something over 1,000 homes one aspect of the acute problem of housing shortages to the north of York—was able to provide all the kinds in the UK. I am grateful to the National Housing of community facilities that made life better than just Federation for its briefings on this and also for the building houses. advice from one of the UK’s foremost planners, Professor If we build major developments, we get sustainable Kelvin MacDonald. communities as a result. Prince Charles’s Poundbury is probably the best known example of this. It has 2.45 pm some defects but is not a bad example of how communities I will not rehearse the problem that this amendment can be created. The Chancellor announced that there seeks to address. We all know that more or less everybody will be support for a new generation of garden cities, under 40 in this country now has a housing problem of Ebbsfleet being the first. However, achieving the some kind. At one extreme end, there is homelessness, Chancellor’s dream of new garden cities—and achieving gross overcrowding and two-hour commutes to work developments of more than, say, 1,000 homes—is an every day. Even those who manage to buy a flat—those extraordinarily difficult task. younger households who have managed the deposit A hundred years after the creation of the village of and moved into somewhere—have the difficulty of New Earswick, to the north of York, we started building, moving on in the next stage of their life. Affordability or attempting to build, another new settlement to follows them now. Even if one gets on to the bottom mark those 100 years. Rowntree, which, of course, had rung of the ladder, one can find difficulty moving up the resources from the chocolate company, looked for from there. sites and we acquired a 53-acre site to the east of York. We know why everyone has this severe problem. It Today, 10 years on, a really fine development of 550 homes is because of the acute shortages of housing. For some is being built there. The homes are for mixed tenure, years we have not built the same number of homes as for sale and for rent, with all the facilities one would we have created new households. As the figures now expect, lots of green space and, indeed, a combined stand, there is a demand for 243,000 homes each year heat and power energy source that means people’s bills through to 2031, but this year we are building something are very low. It is a prime example, but it was no mean like only 120,000 of them. That is a huge deficit to add task to get even a 550-home development off the each year to the deficit already there. This issue is not ground. It took eight years of extraordinarily hard confined to any specialists. Across the piece, everyone work and a great deal of head banging. now recognises that what we need is to build more I am suggesting in this amendment that 1,500 homes homes. Chancellor George Osborne, Governor of the would be the marker for a reclassification of the Bank of England Mark Carney and certainly Planning development as a nationally significant infrastructure Minister Nick Boles are all vocal in saying that we project. What would that mean? The Planning Act 2008 must ease housing shortages by building more homes. created a streamlined authorisation process for projects We know that if we depend on a handful of major that are classified as nationally significant infrastructure housebuilders to do that for us, it will not happen. We projects. In 2008, the headings for those projects were know that reliance on the big six housebuilding companies energy, transport, water, wastewater and waste. Last produces very small results—they go increasingly for year, the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 allowed value, not volume. The numbers of homes being built the Secretary of State to extend that definition to do not seem remotely to reach the targets that all cover other projects which would get the same fast-track GC 167 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 168 planning arrangements. These new projects would cover for Communities and Local Government when it is significant business and commercial developments. Last allocating major development and infrastructure funding. November, the Department for Communities and Local That definition is already out there. Government spelled out the kind of projects that The fourth and final criterion that the Government might be included: big office developments, research are using for judging whether the project is nationally and development, manufacturing, distribution, sport significant is that it might be linked to a significant and tourism—a big film studio is having a go at project, such as a new railway station. Housing this—and mining projects. All these could be treated developments are often linked to infrastructure, and it speedily through the planning system if they were is important that they should be. That one gets a tick deemed to meet national rather than local priorities. in the box. There are big advantages to getting this designation. Why not housing? Why is housing excluded? The The Secretary of State has 28 days to decide whether guidance from DCLG is fairly brief on this. It states something is nationally significant and the Planning that, Inspectorate needs to deliver a final decision within “housing is a primary responsibility of local planning authorities one year. This sounds a relatively long period and it who should be responsible for ensuring an adequate supply of allows for consultation, but it is immensely faster than housing in their area”. one would expect a major scheme to run at the moment. That is all good and well, but it is totally unrealistic to It is also a one-stop shop for planning. Planning expect planning authorities to be enthusiastic about consents for big schemes often require a succession of major developments on their doorstep when their multiple consents. Having a single authorisation process elected members have to run the gamut of people who is really helpful. The essence of this is that the inspectorate do not think it is a great idea to live next to a major would decide that the development is in the national new development built right next to them. Noble interest and not just in the interests of the particular Lords will recall that when Stevenage, the first of the locality. However, noble Lords will notice that housing new towns, was started, people changed the name of is excluded from the list I read out. the railway station by plastering over the sign with a The criteria for judging whether something is nationally new one saying “Silkingrad”. Lewis Silkin’s car tyres significant are spelled out in the DCLG guidance. were let down and he was jeered and booed from the There are four ingredients. The first is that a project, sidelines. It was not a popular idea that a new town be created at Stevenage, and who is surprised by that? “is likely to have a significant economic impact, or is important Nobody is surprised. for driving growth in the economy”. I am the greatest fan of localism, right down to Just ask Mark Carney whether housing matters in community level, but localism and major housing terms of economic impact and driving the economy. developments do not co-exist. These two concepts do Firms cannot recruit the people that they need; people not work well together. There is the duty to co-operate cannot move around the country; indeed, people leave across local authority boundaries—if the development the country. The economic consequence of everybody straddles a boundary or is just the other side but is paying an enormous amount of their income on housing serving the needs of a local authority on the other at a young age has ripples right through the wider side, the duty to co-operate exists—but I am afraid it economy, not just for those on the lowest incomes, dissolves and disintegrates when we are talking about who always suffer most. I think that the criterion is major housing developments. It is just not fair to leave well met by housing projects of this kind. it up to local authorities to say yes to major developments. The second criterion is that a project, Local interests are bound to prevail, and so they should at local level. The point is that these projects “has an impact across an area wider than a single local authority are of national significance—hence their redefinition. area”. A Bill that reclassified major housing projects as If you are building a major housing development, nationally significant infrastructure projects, as with people travel all over the place. At Poundbury, Prince the new definition for offices, sports facilities and all Charles thought that people would tend to work in the rest, could make a really significant contribution some of the work opportunities that that village on to easing housing shortages and helping Governments the side of Dorchester created. Not many people do. of whatever political persuasion meet the targets that They go off in their cars to Weymouth or anywhere we all know we have to meet but which, at the moment, else where the jobs are. A major housing development show very little likelihood of being met. I beg to move. feeds an area wider than simply the place in which it is situated. Lord Tope (LD): My Lords, I added my name to The third criterion that the Government have put this amendment and am very pleased to support the forward is that a project is, noble Lord, Lord Best. He has described the need for these measures and the reason for them very fully, and “of a substantial physical size”. I do not intend to repeat all or, indeed, much of what In defining that for construction projects, they suggest he said, most of which I agree with. anything over 40,000 square metres of gross internal I am a very strong localist. I am not sure I go wholly floor space. I have calculated that that is the equivalent with him on his concerns about localism and housing of about 500 homes. The figure of 1,500 as the threshold need, but my party has a target in its policy to build here is three times bigger than it would be for a big 300,000 houses a year by the year 2030. We at least office block. The threshold of 1,500 has been chosen have the realism to describe that as an ambitious because that is what is currently used by the Department target. That is probably a modest description. GC 169 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 170

3pm do over the years since then, and this is not the least of I recently had occasion to chair and speak at our his achievements. He made a strong case, and I entirely Liberal Democrat local government conference; we recognise that. The question that I ask is who would had a very interesting session on localism and housing, initiate these big schemes? I entirely agree with him where we tried to address exactly the sort of problems that these are desirable measures, if we are going to try to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred. We all to reach our housing target, and I entirely agree with recognise the urgent need—never mind by 2030—for him that planning should not be an obstacle to that. more housing. All of us, especially those of us who are The planning inspectorate, which, as the noble Lord or have been councillors, recognise that that urgent said, would have to be the body to decide on whether housing is usually desired somewhere other than where to allow or disallow the investment for something of we live. That is too often the local reaction, but if we more than 1,500 houses, is not an initiating body. It are to get anywhere near achieving whatever target is does not propose schemes and is not a body like, for set, and ambitious targets have been given, something instance, the development corporations that now exist has to change. There is no possibility of achieving in some parts of the country. Its powers are not like whatever figure one chooses, whether it is 300,000, those which the Greater London Authority and the 250,000 or even 200,000, under the current regime. As Mayor of London have to initiate large schemes of the noble Lord, Lord Best, rightly pointed out, every housing, or indeed anything else. year that we fail to reach that target, the deficit grows. On the point that the noble Lord made about the It is quite probable at the current rate that by the year speed at which it has to approve applications made, of 2030 our target of 300,000 will not be seen as ambitious. course that starts from the point when it is considering It will be seen as falling even further short of where we the application. One thing about the inspectorate—and need to be. indeed its predecessor, which was proposed by the I supported this amendment to give us the debate former Government of the Labour Party—was that it today because we need to recognise with measures insisted that all consultation of local opinion should such as this—and there is no single measure that be achieved and established before it started to consider achieves it—that a community of 1,500 homes is a the application. I think that everybody approves of significant and substantial community. Personally, I that. It is a very good way of approaching this, so that prefer the expression “garden communities” to “garden when looking at the application and its impact you do cities”; it possibly has a better connotation. It is a not waste a lot of time on questioning whether local significant community that needs infrastructure and is communities or other local interests were consulted. far beyond the reach, probably, of many smaller local I am interested as the noble Lord, like me, is of planning authorities as well. Therefore, we need seriously course a champion of localism. At Second Reading, I to consider measures such as this. criticised the Local Government Association’s statement I get very frustrated when political parties—all of that it did not see planning as an obstacle to growth them; we plead guilty, too—trade statistics to prove and development. I quoted some statements that have which Government were worst over the years. The been made regarding the interests of those who see reality is that no Government, including mine, have this from another perspective. I felt, as I argued, that yet been anywhere near good enough, and we need to that was a rather unrealistic statement. Of course, it recognise that. We need to have a long-term housing has to be speeded up, but I had a long brief from the plan to get nearer to and, I hope, achieve the ambitious Local Government Association, as we have all done targets that are set. We should not keep bandying from time to time on various Bills. I am a vice-president statistics or building for value rather than volume of the LGA, but it is interesting that it has not offered which the noble Lord, Lord Best, said many of the any comment on this amendment, neither for nor bigger builders seem to be doing. I would be a little against. It has argued—this is perhaps my central cautious about just building for volume. We need the point—that what is needed is organisations which will right sort of housing in the right places. It is not promote the kind of development that the noble Lord, simply a matter of volume; it is a matter of a whole Lord Best, has been describing. It has argued that range of things, such as design and quality, and houses there ought to be development corporations along the being in places where people want to live because there lines that now exist in certain areas. are jobs for them to go to, there is transport infrastructure I am a huge supporter of the various efforts that to get them where they want to go and home again, have been made to encourage local authorities to join and it is a community in which they want to live. That together, perhaps over quite a wide area. One has seen is infrastructure, and that is why I support the amendment, that first in the city deals that have been made, which and the debate on this amendment. I hope that whoever are proving quite extraordinarily effective. They are a is in government in 12 months’ time will at an early very interesting new instrument of localism, which stage produce not necessarily the Bill called for in this will surely produce substantial benefits for the future. amendment but rather a long-term housing needs However, it goes wider than that as it is not just city programme that everyone can sign up to. deals but local authorities which can get together to plan and initiate projects, for which they can then find investors and so deal with them. To my mind, that is Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): My Lords, the noble the way that it should be done. If you then have local Lord, Lord Best, has made a very interesting and authorities or, as I think it would have to be, development compelling speech. I am more than ever pleased that I corporations formed by local authorities, that is the was one of his supporters when he took his seat in the way in which they can have what I certainly support: House. I have greatly admired what he has been able to that the decisions should be made locally. GC 171 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 172

The difficulty with this amendment, although I upon a fundamental issue facing the country—and, understood clearly and listened with great interest to indeed, as other noble Lords said, all political parties the arguments, is that it goes contrary to the whole at this time—which is the housing crisis. I hope that thrust of policy in many of these related areas: seeking the noble Lord, Lord Tope, will forgive me for quoting to devolve authority from the centre down to the locality. a few statistics in a little while, but this crisis is characterised Of course, the noble Lord is quite right that there by an acute housing shortage, with housebuilding are always nimbys, and that is a problem that has to be falling to its lowest levels in peacetime since the 1920s, addressed. When I was Environment Secretary, my home ownership being unaffordable for many low to very splendid chief planning adviser John Delafons— middle-income families, a falling programme of homes who is sadly no longer with us—after asking me, for social rent, an unaffordable “affordable rent” model “Secretary of State, have you heard of NIMBYs?”, to and a burgeoning private rented sector in which rents which I said yes, he asked, “Have you heard of NOTE?”, are rising—all accompanied by insecurity and uncertainty to which I said no, so he explained: “Not over there in the marketplace. either”. He also had another story that I liked: “The The Government will claim that they have built man who occupies the end house in a new housing some 445,000 houses since 2010, but this represents estate on the edge of a town promptly becomes the just over 110,000 a year—way short of what we need, secretary of the local conservation society—‘I’m all the 243,000 figure quoted by the noble Lord, Lord right, Jack, and I don’t want any more!’”. Those are Best. This is less than half of what the country needs. the kinds of very human, but really rather damaging, Figures from the House of Commons Library show impacts that these influences can have. that since 2010 the gap between housing supply and Would centralising the decisions into the hands of demand has increased by more than half a million the local Planning Inspectorate make any difference? homes, with London bearing the brunt of the increasing It might, but surely the right answer is for local shortfall. It has been reported that DCLG Ministers developers—or perhaps development corporations have been advised of the prospect of the number of supported by a consortium of local authorities, as housing starts falling in 2014, with just 16,000 affordable might be necessary—to win the argument. Some of home starts. Perhaps I can ask the Minister whether them are very good at it; others need to match their that is correct. skills. However, I have some doubts about whether centralising the decision into the hands of the Planning 3.15 pm Inspectorate, which is what the amendment calls for, is the right way forward. It might help, but it would also However, I acknowledge that the gap is not a new do other things that may be less helpful. Indeed, I phenomenon. Although the previous Labour Government think that there are better ways of doing this. It is built nearly 2 million more homes in England, including interesting that local authorities have been arguing for half a million affordable homes, between 1997 and the right to set up development corporations as the 2010, more were needed. This is despite 2007-08 seeing Mayor of London can do, but they have not actually the largest increase in net additional dwellings for put any amendments to me about how that might be 30 years. But that was far short of what we built in the properly achieved. Perhaps that is an issue to which we 1950s and 1960s. I think it was Harold Macmillan, as can return on Report, which might be a better peg on Housing Minister, who reached 300,000. In Harold which to hang this. Wilson’s Government in the mid-1960s, something like 350,000 homes were built in a year, so we can do it. I end on the note with which the noble Lord, Lord Best, began, which is that nobody doubts the acute The noble Lord, Lord Best, challenges us to say seriousness of the housing problem in this country. In what we are going to do to address the crisis. He offers part, the problem is about overcoming environmental the specific proposition about using the infrastructure resistance, although one can understand some of that; planning regime for larger developments. I find myself in part, it is caused by the difficulty of getting developers constrained from being as expansive as one would interested in brownfield sites. I was very struck by the wish in this debate, given where we are on policy statement made by my right honourable friend the formation. In particular, we—the Labour Party—await Secretary of State for DCLG, Eric Pickles, which was the report of a housing commission set up by Ed repeated by noble friend Lady Stowell on 16 June, Miliband and chaired by Sir Michael Lyons. Nevertheless, about what is being done to encourage more development we are on the record as saying that we plan to increase on brownfield sites. There will be extra help for London, the supply of new homes in England above 200,000 a but more important is that the success of London in year by the end of the next Parliament—not 300,000 getting ahead of this is now to be emulated in other by 2030. parts of the country. It seems to me that these are the Such plans include giving local authorities that ways in which one ought to try to deal with this. want to expand the right to grow, with access to a I will therefore listen with great interest to my noble fast-track planning process to resolve any disputes friend’s response to the amendment, which has a very with neighbouring authorities that are blocking considerable appeal, but I have to say that I am not development, and support to accelerate the pace of wholly convinced that it is the right answer. development. I agree that the duty to co-operate is simply not working. A “use it or lose it” principle will give councils proper compulsory purchase powers to Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, the tackle land-hoarding, and powers to charge developers noble Lord, Lord Best, got us off to a good start in escalating fees where they are banking land with planning our deliberations on Part 3 of the Bill. He touched permissions. The delivery of a new generation of new GC 173 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 174

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] I went back to the debates we had just over a year towns and garden cites is a proposition that is common ago on this issue during the passage of the Growth to all parties now, I believe, and should be welcomed. and Infrastructure Bill. The Minister’s predecessor, We wish to see reform of the housing revenue account the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, set out the system, creating a less bureaucratic and more flexible Government’s position, which was the importance of system that enables councils to build, and backing the local planning authority in these matters, with the communities by giving them a greater share of the reservation that if major schemes that might indicate a benefits from development. need for a decision at national level came forward, the We also need to boost small to medium-sized call-in route might be a way of dealing with that. I do housebuilders. Access to land is crucial and we would not know whether that is still the Government’s policy, require local authorities to include a higher proportion but that may bridge the situation between larger scale of small sites in their five-year land supply to boost developments and the role of the local planning authority, small and custom-build, with guaranteed access to which we have always seen as sacrosanct and a key public land for smaller firms and custom builders. We building block of effective planning and the creation would commit that a proportion of the homes built in of the homes that we need. new towns and garden cities would be built by smaller firms and custom builders; increase transparency in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department the land market by ensuring that developers register for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell the land they own and have options on; and give of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, as this is the first time people the chance to sign up for a waiting list for that I have contributed to debates on the Infrastructure custom-build co-operative homes or community land Bill as the Minister responsible for Part 3, I start by trust projects, with local people having priority. saying what a privilege it is to be working alongside Having set this out, there is clearly a need to seek a my noble friends Lady Kramer and Lady Verma. I do long-term consensus, that is, not fractured by a four or not whether anyone else has noticed that on a Bill all five-year Parliament and changes in Governments, to about heavy stuff—whether roads, construction or address the housing crisis. We have been able to forge energy—somebody clearly decided it was a job for the some longer term consensus around public and private girls. I am glad to be part of that team. Like my noble pensions policy, for example, although that grappled friend Lady Kramer, I will be very happy to make with how much and who pays rather than where it myself available at all stages of the Bill if any noble goes, which is an extra dimension of a housing consensus. Lord interested in Part 3 would like to have a meeting We seem to be in an era where there is some agreement to discuss any issues. We have had a couple of briefings about new towns and garden cities being a route already, but I am very happy to do more of that type towards a step-change around housing provision. Whether of thing if noble Lords would find it helpful. there is a shared vision of what this means is another Turning to the amendment moved by the noble matter, but it provides some prospect of delivering Lord, Lord Best, I agree that we need more housing. over the long term. That is a clear goal for this Government, and I know it Can the local planning system deliver large-scale is shared by all parties. I am pleased that this Government growth? It might be argued that there is in principle no have made significant progress, as the noble Lord, barrier, but it would be challenging, especially if we Lord McKenzie, acknowledged. Since April 2010, more contemplate, as we do, the scale of development than 445,000 homes have been built. Last year, the contemplated by a new towns programme. The noble number of new homes being built was up 31% on the Lord’s amendment sees salvation in larger scale previous year and is the highest since the crash in developments being facilitated by the use of the major 2007-08, but we need more and we are working to infrastructure planning regime, but like the noble Lord, ensure that we continue to improve on that figure. Lord Jenkin, we have some reservations about this Indeed, the measures in the Bill demonstrate the approach if the scale of the development is that of the importance we attach to our efforts to increase the new towns model. As the TCPA put it, supply of housing. “the complexity of creating a whole New Town is such there is However, we disagree in principle with the noble much more to do, over a much longer timescale, than building Lords, Lord Best and Lord McKenzie, about who is specific infrastructure, no matter how large or complex”. best placed to make decisions on where new housing There is a case for using the infrastructure route for should be situated. There is a fundamental difference developments which might sit in size between new of opinion between us on that. This Government towns and smaller scale developments, perhaps as an remain convinced that it is the responsibility of local intermediate approach. The difficulty is where it leaves councils to plan to meet housing need through their the local planning authority—the point made by the local plans. Forcing developments with more than noble Lord, Lord Jenkin—which has the key responsibility 1,500 units through the nationally significant infrastructure to plan for the housing which is needed over the local regime would significantly reduce this responsibility plan period. We propose that its role will be enhanced and would be a move away from local decision-making, in this respect by our “right to grow” proposals, so we which we feel strongly about. It is worth making the have some reservations about the amendment, which point that we know from past experience that when we accept is a probing amendment. We have no Governments try to impose massive new developments reservations in recognising that there is a need for a on local areas, they tend not to happen. long-term policy to tackle our housing crisis and the Local plans should be at the heart of the planning role that housing associations, in particular, can play process in an area and decisions whether to grant in this. planning permission on major housing or mixed-use GC 175 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 176 developments, which this amendment also covers, should I can give noble Lords a couple of examples. Cranbrook be taken in that context. I note that my noble friend in Exeter is a new community for 6,000 homes, and the Lord Tope said that ensuring that the right homes government local infrastructure fund loan of £20 million were situated in the right places was key. We think that was used to fund infrastructure and school facilities to is something that local authorities are best equipped unlock phase 2. Phase 1 already has residents moved to do. In May 2010, 17% of local authorities had in and phase 2 is now under way, with the first residents adopted a local plan. However, as of this month, 56% due to move in by the end of next month. There is a of them have adopted local plans, and 79% have large scheme in Sherford and another one in Kettering; published them, so we have come an awfully long way even on the Manchester city fringe there is a major in the four years since we came to power. redevelopment of the Ancoats part of the site, with a It is also worth pointing to the strong improvement government loan of £18 million to unlock 1,500 homes in the planning permission regime. More than 178,000 and work expected to start in September. residential planning permissions were granted in England The fund that we have made available is having a on major sites in 2013-14. That was 23% higher than significant impact. In the Autumn Statement last year, the year before and 50% higher than the year before we were successful in securing another £1 billion of that, so the planning process is speeding up and is funding to continue this programme, and published a leading to more sites being approved, which is clearly prospectus inviting bids from developers and local good news. In fact, compared with the year before the authorities in April. We will announce a shortlist of introduction of the national planning policy framework successful bids in the next few weeks. in 2012, there was a 21% increase in the number of My noble friend Lord Jenkin talked about local homes being approved on all sites in 2013-14. Therefore, development corporations and made the point about real progress is being made in new homes being approved who initiates these schemes. I do not want to get ahead through the regime that we have introduced. of debates on later groups, because I think that we will The noble Lord, Lord Best, portrayed the timetable probably get into that in more detail later on—if not for progressing a business and commercial scheme today, certainly next week. I make the point to my under the nationally significant infrastructure scheme noble friend that local authorities already have the in a more simplistic way than is the case in practice. powers that they need to initiate. I can talk more about Indeed, I think that my noble friend Lord Jenkin that when we get to that specific group of amendments. acknowledged that. I should make it clear that the Finally, the noble Lord McKenzie, referred to timetable is 28 days for a decision on whether a plan is comments made in the debates on the Growth and nationally significant. Then there is the public consultation, Infrastructure Bill by my noble friend and predecessor which could be as extensive as taking up to a year. Lady Hanham. The Secretary of State retains the Then you have the application itself; and then, if that ability to call in projects for his own consideration, but is accepted, the consideration process could take a he will generally consider doing so only if planning year to reach a decision. So it could be longer than one issues of more than local importance are involved; for year and perhaps anything up to two to three years in example, when development may have a significant total, depending on the complexity of the scheme. long-term impact on economic growth and meeting I would argue, therefore, that the nationally significant housing needs across a wide area. So that remains in infrastructure regime is not the silver bullet that perhaps place. the noble Lord, Lord Best, and others might want us I hope that in my response I have been able to to believe it is in terms of solving the housing crisis, reinforce the Government’s absolute commitment and because there is no guarantee that housing schemes the priority that they attach to increasing the supply of will be approved should they go through that regime, housing. In this first debate on this part of the Bill, I and they will not necessarily get permission any faster, hope that I have demonstrated how much effort at a because there is normally at least 12 to 18 months of high level is being applied in this area. No doubt we pre-application work, including the local consultation can talk about some of the specifics in later groups, that I have just talked about, before a scheme can be but I believe that the fundamental difference is the submitted for examination. So using speed as an argument Government’s strongly held view that decisions on for adopting the nationally significant infrastructure housing should be for local authorities to make. While regime is something that I would argue strongly against. I support the principle of what the noble Lord, Lord Best, and my noble friend Lord Tope are trying to 3.30 pm achieve, we feel that the measures we have in place are Fundamentally, I would argue that the amendment the right way forward. I hope the noble Lord will is trying to fix the wrong problem. The Government withdraw his amendment. are aware that there are a number of viable and shovel-ready sites where development is stalled, not Lord Best: I am very grateful to noble Lords for because of difficulties in getting planning permission their contributions to this little debate. The noble but because of difficulties in obtaining suitable finance. Lord, Lord Tope, made the point that something has It is for this reason that the Government launched the to change. There has to be something a bit more large sites infrastructure programme, which has already dramatic, I think, than the measures we are currently supported 21 stalled major housing schemes through working on. He also made the point that it is about loans, capacity funding, brokerage with statutory quality, not just quantity, and one of the great things consultees and planning support, and which should about a major development is that you can get the unlock a further 80,000 homes in the medium to long quality. If you are building just 40 houses and cramming term. them into the space that you have, the housebuilder GC 177 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 178

[LORD BEST] of what they entail—very big developments over the often sacrifices quality. If you have a master plan longer period? The TCPA thought that the infrastructure working to create a garden village or even a garden planning process did not really suit that. That is why I community—I like that—on any scale, you can make thought we almost had three situations. There is the it work because you have the numbers there. local authority with its usual planning role and The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, was supportive of responsibilities for housing. There are new town the need to do more but had his doubts about this development corporations with the much needed mega- particular way of helping. He made the point that it is expansions. My reservations were about the extent to important to identify who is going to initiate major which intermediate positions would be best dealt with developments. The use of development corporations, by the infrastructure planning regime or by some with consortia of local authorities, is absolutely the other route. way to create the vehicles that could then take advantage of an easier, fast-track planning system. They would Lord Best: I am sure that that distinction is exactly be the chief beneficiaries. It might be through local right. A development corporation need not necessarily enterprise partnerships’ city deals. The Olympic Village go for 15,000 homes, which I believe is the target for was a wonderful example of how the growth boroughs Ebbsfleet, the first of these new garden cities. We are in that area collaborated and achieved what remains a looking here at the more modest proposals; ones that very important piece of housing. are none the less enormous in relation to the place. It may well be that the development corporation model Lord Jenkin of Roding: The noble Lord mentioned works just as well with a master plan for 1,500 homes the Olympic Village. He is quite right to give credit to as it does for 15,000 and the opportunities that that the local authorities in the area. Having read the brings with it, requiring something in between the report by the London Borough of Newham on what it mega and the everyday that can be encompassed within has achieved through that, I think it deserves the the local plan. highest praise for what it has done. I have in fact The amendment is a proposal for a Bill within a written to the Mayor of Newham to express that view year of this Bill becoming an Act. That would give an to him. opportunity for that Bill to take forward all the detailed aspects of this, things such as who exercises compulsory Lord Best: I agree entirely. The noble Lord, Lord purchase powers in these circumstances or whether McKenzie, was very supportive but had some doubts. one requires a national policy statement as for other It was important to hear the plans that are now being aspects of infrastructure that would go with this measure. formulated by the Labour Party. I know that Sir Michael That is all to play for. At this stage, I thank all those Lyons’s review is due out fairly soon. I think that will who joined in and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. be a creative and important contribution to the debate. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, made the point that Amendment 79A withdrawn. long-term consensus is going to be essential and we have to work our way toward that, even though he has Clauses 17 and 18 agreed. some reservations about this particular approach. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, very Clause 19: Changes to, and revocation of, development much for her response and for underlining the consent orders Government’s commitment to increasing supply, which is the essence of this. My suggestion is by no means a silver bullet, that is for sure. Loans, guarantees, et Amendment 79AA cetera, are all good; it is whether or not the volume Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton that we need is going to be achieved by the measures that are currently there. With regard to reliance on 79AA: Clause 19, page 20, line 19, leave out “or” and insert “to exercise a discretion, or with the consent of the Secretary of local plans—remembering that you have no duty as a State, to allow” local authority to meet the needs of your neighbours or of the nation—your local plan must relate to the requirements of your own locality, and that may not Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a probing encourage you to believe that a very major development amendment that enables us better to understand what is within your remit. is intended by a very specific provision. It also gives us the opportunity more generally to assess progress on I take the point entirely that the pre-application the process for dealing with nationally significant process adds another year or so to the whole, so in infrastructure projects. total from beginning to end, with the 28 days from the Secretary of State at the beginning, one may well To the narrow point first: for non-material changes reach three years. But believe you me, three years for a to a development consent order, the duty to comply major development is a triumph in relation to the time with consultation and publicity requirements is placed that we now must wait to get things done. upon the person applying for consent as well as on the Secretary of State. The Explanatory Note suggests This is a proposal for a Bill, not a proposal in itself. that that “may” happen although it would appear to be automatic given the wording of the Bill. Perhaps Lord McKenzie of Luton: How does the noble Lord the Minister could elucidate. If it is not automatic, see the issue of the use of the infrastructure planning who makes the decision to place that obligation on the regime for garden cities and new towns, given the scale applicant? When it comes to the exercise of the discretion, GC 179 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 180 it is not clear how prescriptive the regulations will be to give him the reassurance he is looking for. I will do in setting the parameters of that discretion, and my best to be simple and straightforward in explaining particularly what scope the applicant may have to, say, this, but it is quite a technical thing to explain. I am disapply prescribed consultation requirements. Perhaps quite confident that we share the same objectives, so I the Minister could put something on the record in that will give it a go and if needs be we can always talk regard. further, I am sure. We note that this clause and Clauses 17 and 18, Clause 19 will provide the framework for changes which we support, spring from the review of the to regulations that will provide a quicker and simpler nationally significant infrastructure planning regime process for making changes to development consent review. Much of what flows from that review will do orders. We will be consulting on changes to regulations so in regulations and guidance, much of it outside the shortly. For non-material changes, we will be proposing timeframe for our consideration of the Bill. In principle, that responsibility for publicising and consulting on the direction of travel of that review is something we an application should in future lie with the applicant can support. The creation of the nationally significant rather than the Secretary of State. Crucially, that will infrastructure regime by the Planning Act 2008 was bring the process for making a non-material change in important in seeking to simplify and speed up planning line with the rest of the Planning Act. In moving the consents for infrastructure projects, as we just discussed. responsibility for publicising and consulting on an However, even in the short time since that Act there application to the applicant, the Government want to have been changes to the legislation: transferring power ensure the necessary flexibility in the regulations to ensure back to Ministers, which was then delegated straight that non-material changes that are unlikely to have back to the Planning Inspectorate; widening the scope significant impacts can be made quickly. In view of so that other major developments are included; eliminating that, we intend to retain the provision in the existing the need for certain consents; establishing the consents regulations that would allow an applicant not to consult service unit; and setting up the major infrastructure someone, but that would be only where they had and environment unit. gained the consent of the Secretary of State to do so. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and 3.45 pm others who may be interested in this part of the Bill, This planning regime is especially important given have seen the briefing paper which we prepared in the current interest in infrastructure across the political advance of this Sitting of the Committee. We circulated spectrum, the recognition that the UK’s infrastructure it by e-mail earlier this week. I will happily send it has not been renewed or enhanced when needed and round again if anyone has not seen the document to that something must be done about it and, in particular, which I am referring. The briefing paper gives a the need for a political consensus for a 25- to 30-year preliminary indication of the changes to the regulations plan. We have had the benefit of the Armitt review, on which we will consult later this month, so the which recommended a new independent national consultation should start fairly soon. infrastructure commission to look 25 to 30 years The briefing paper does not suggest that we intend ahead at the evidence for the UK’s future needs. It to change the current consultation and publicity would then set clear priorities aimed at achieving requirements for non-material changes. I hope that cross-party political consensus, public support and once noble Lords have had the opportunity to consider investor certainty for long-term decisions on the UK’s the consultation paper on changes to the regulations, energy, transport, water, waste, flood defences and they will be reassured that the Government are not telecommunications. We have common cause in ensuring proposing to use the power of discretion provided in that the infrastructure planning regime is operating as Clause 19 to allow applicants to decide who they effectively and efficiently as possible. should and should not consult. Applicants will continue At the commencement of the review, discussion to consult those persons and bodies set out in the identified that the system was working well, but can regulations unless they have the consent of the Secretary the Minister update us on progress? How many projects of State not to do so. Given those comments, I hope have been approved and in which sectors? How many that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, feels able to are in the pipeline? How many and what types of withdraw his amendment. projects are progressing under the expanded process set out in the Growth and Infrastructure Act? We note The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about progress that much of the focus of the review recommendations, on applications and decisions through the nationally particularly around improvements to the pre-application significant infrastructure regime. Twenty applications process, falls upon the Planning Inspectorate. What have now gone all the way through the system and 19 reassurance can the Minister give about the capacity have been granted consent, so that is a 95% approval of the inspectorate to handle this and, I hope, growing rate. There was one refusal, which concerned the Preesall numbers of projects? I beg to move. gas storage application. This project is being redetermined following judicial review. Four applications have been decided in 2014, with another nine expected, and Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am grateful 13 were decided in 2013. Two were decided in 2012 to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for outlining his and one in 2011 through the Infrastructure Planning support for Clauses 17, 18 and 19, and for explaining Commission. Therefore, the regime is being used, and the reasons for tabling his amendment and seeking we can see from the number of applications that the clarification about what we are intending with the process is working. There are 56 applications in the pre- proposals outlined in Clause 19. I hope that I am able application phase and more in other parts of the GC 181 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 182

[BARONESS STOWELL OF BEESTON] planning authorities. We heard this in an earlier debate system. I hope that gives the noble Lord the information this afternoon. Local planning authorities are in a he was looking for and that I have given him the position to know what local needs, priorities and reassurance he sought on this part of the Bill. circumstances are, they know best what is needed to determine and stimulate local growth, yet they do not Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the have the opportunity to set their own permitted Minister for that explanation which dealt precisely development rights. Surely, it must follow logically with my narrow inquiry about the exercise of discretion. from all that we all say that local authorities should If I understood her correctly, it is clear that the Secretary have the power and ability to set such rights themselves. of State’s permission will be needed if an applicant That is the purpose of this amendment, and in view of seeks to exercise discretion in this regard. The Minister what has been said in earlier debates today I am gave a very helpful update on the statistics. It would confident of its acceptance. I beg to move. also be helpful if at some point, not necessarily this afternoon, those figures could be broken down by sector or type of project and if a distinction could be Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, as the noble made between those that arose in respect of the original Lord, Lord Tope, indicated, we have added our names construct of the infrastructure commission and those to this amendment and we support it. It took me back that fall within the expanded definitions and facilities to a debate during the course of the Growth and in the Growth and Infrastructure Act. Having said Infrastructure Act when identical amendments were that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. moved and rejected by the Government. The Government’s defence then was that the Article 4 direction would be a route that local authorities could Amendment 79AA withdrawn. use if they were not happy with what central government was doing. At that point, there was disagreement Clause 19 agreed. between the LGA and the Government about how user-friendly that route actually was. The Government Amendment 79B were going to talk to the LGA to see whether those matters could be clarified, so it would be very helpful Moved by Lord Tope to know whether any clarification was forthcoming. In 79B: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause— particular, there was an issue about how the Secretary “Requirement for planning permission of State should approach the use of Article 4. I refer to the debate on the Growth and Infrastructure Bill: (1) Section 57 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (requirement for planning permission) is amended as follows. “Is it still the position that the Secretary of State’s general approach to making an Article 4 direction, as set out in paragraph 4.23 (2) In subsection (3) after “a local development order” insert of planning policy guidance note 15—” “issued by the local planning authority”. here I asked whether that policy guidance still existed— (3) After subsection (3) insert— “is that, ‘permitted development rights should not be withdrawn “(4) Where a local planning authority propose to make an without clear justification’?”.—[Official Report, 12/3/2013; col. 195.] order under this section they shall first prepare— It would be helpful to know whether that interpretation (a) a draft of the order; and is still imposed upon the Secretary of State in dealing (b) a statement of their reasons for making the order. with any Article 4 direction. (5) The statement of reasons shall contain— Having said that and raised those inquiries, I thoroughly (a) a description of the development which the order would support the position of the noble Lord, Lord Tope. permit; and (b) a plan or statement identifying the land to which the order would relate. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, this will be (6) Where a local planning authority have prepared a draft considerably shorter than the last intervention I made. local development order, they shall consult, in accordance with I assure my noble friend Lord Tope that I think this is regulations, persons whose interests they consider would be affected a good point. It will certainly have my support, and I by the order.”” look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Lord Tope: My Lords, this amendment stands in Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My noble friend knows my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord that the last thing I ever want to do is to disappoint Davies of Oldham and Lord McKenzie of Luton, and him, but I think that he is not going to be as pleased would enable local authorities to set their own permitted with me on this occasion as he might be on others. development rights. I am grateful to have the support However, that is only because this amendment replicates of the Labour Benches for this amendment. I take it to what is already set out in secondary legislation. I am be a commitment on behalf of the Labour Party that pleased to say that local planning authorities already this will become government policy, should it ever be have the power to make local development orders, so it in a position to make it so. As we all know, the current is not necessary to make this change. Similarly, there system is centrally set and nationally determined and are powers for a local authority to remove national local authorities have extremely limited opportunities permitted development rights where it has concerns to change or vary what is set down nationally. about the impact of permitted development rights The Minister has already said today, and on many locally. As we have already heard, this is achieved occasions, and I know she firmly believes it, that the through an Article 4 direction and should be done in people best placed to take these decisions are local consultation with the local community. GC 183 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 184

The National Planning Policy Framework sets out Lord Tope: I am grateful to the Minister for her that Article 4 directions should be limited to situations reply and encouraging words. Clearly, I would like to where they are necessary to protect local amenity or take further advice and look more deeply at some of the well-being of the area. Article 4 directions should, the things she said. Since the joyful days of the Growth therefore, be used sparingly as they remove relaxations and Infrastructure Bill, I have had some local experience which the Government have brought forward. These of the use of Article 4. I have to say that it bore out all relaxations remove costs and burdens from local people the things that I was saying because I was told that was and allow them the freedom and flexibility to make what the situation was and I learnt from experience the best use of their properties. I know that there is a that that was the case. It is still far from satisfactory, claim—noble Lords have repeated it today—that the but I am grateful to the Minister for what she has told Article 4 process is burdensome. However, we disagree. us. I will look at this further with those who know Rather it seeks to ensure that those whose permitted better than I do. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. development rights are being removed are consulted and that there are safeguards against inappropriate use of the power. I do not think that there would be support for the reimposition of those burdens without Amendment 79B withdrawn. proper consultation. Amendment 79C Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton 4pm Where the aim is to increase permitted development 79C: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause— rights locally, local development orders provide a quick “National infrastructure projects: new towns and simple way to do so. After a slow start under the (1) The objects of a development corporation established for the purpose of creating a new town shall be to secure the physical previous Administration, the number of local development laying out of infrastructure and the long-term sustainable development orders being put in place across England has continued of the new town. to increase. Local authorities are recognising the benefits (2) In this section, sustainable development means managing of this flexible tool which can be put in place through the use, development and protection of land and natural resources a simple and streamlined procedure. More than 65 local in a way which enables people and communities to provide for development orders have now been put in place in their legitimate social, economic and cultural wellbeing while enterprise zones, and as we speak local development sustaining the potential of future generations to meet their own orders are contributing to growth by helping speed up needs. delivery of everything from small domestic alterations (3) In achieving sustainable development, development to major industrial developments. That is the bit in my corporations should— response that my noble friend Lord Jenkin might find (a) positively identify suitable land for development in line with the economic, social and environmental objectives encouraging. so as to improve the quality of life, wellbeing and health We are further promoting the use of local development of people and the community; orders to bring forward much needed housing on (b) contribute to the sustainable economic development of brownfield sites. As set out recently by my right honourable the town; friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we want local (c) contribute to the cultural and artistic development of the authorities to use local development orders to contribute town; to the granting of planning permissions on more than (d) protect and enhance the natural and historic environment; 90% of brownfield sites suitable for housing by 2020. (e) contribute to mitigation of and adaptation of climate We estimate that this could deliver 200,000 new homes. change consistent with the objectives of the Climate That these permissions will be delivered through local Change Act 2008; development orders confirms our commitment to (f) promote high quality and inclusive design; encouraging local authorities to deliver housing to (g) ensure that decision-making is open, transparent, meet their needs. We will shortly be inviting local participative and accountable; and authorities to bid for a share of £5 million of funding (h) ensure that assets are managed in the long-term interest to support local development orders for housing on of the community. brownfield land. This reinforces our commitment to (4) In this section “infrastructure” includes— local planning decisions being made at local level, (a) water, electricity, gas, telecommunications, sewerage and which is a point I made in response to the first debate other services; on Part 3. (b) roads, railways and other transport facilities; As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie said, this matter (c) retail and other business facilities; was most recently discussed in this House during the (d) health, educational, employment and training facilities; passage of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill 2013. (e) social, religious, recreational and cultural facilities; As he reminded the Committee, my predecessor (f) green infrastructure and ecosystems; committed to revise guidance on Article 4 directions (g) cremation and burial facilities; and and to remove the Secretary of State’s role in the making of local development orders. We have delivered (h) community facilities not falling within paragraphs (a) to (f); and on both those commitments. I am pleased to confirm “land” is defined as including all the matters set out in the to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that we have done definition of “land” in Schedule 1 to the Interpretation Act 1978, precisely what we promised to do. On this basis, I hope and also housing including (where the context permits) any yard, that my noble friend Lord Tope will feel able to garden, outhouses and appurtenances belonging to, or usually withdraw the amendment. enjoyed with, the building or part of building concerned.” GC 185 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 186

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the been a wide recognition that planning has few, if any, TCPA for its enthusiastic counsel in drafting this outcome duties. This has in turn led to much criticism amendment and for advising me on it. that planning has become a process without a purpose. New legal processes have been introduced to focus the Overall, we consider that the planning sections of system on sustainable development, climate change the Infrastructure Bill are a lost opportunity to lay the and good design, but they do not apply to development foundations of a planning system that can help deliver corporations because they are not local planning the homes and places the nation deserves. This very authorities. much builds on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best. The Bill continues in the long line of The suggested new clause is designed to extend and measures which reduce the powers of local authorities modernise the list of objectives and duties of new in ways which in turn risk creating real impacts for town development corporations. In order to modernise individuals and communities. We will discuss Clause 20 the objectives, the first proposed new clause draws on shortly. Given the negative nature of the Bill, we the outcome duties in both the Planning and Compulsory propose to use this amendment as a vehicle for a much Purchase Act 2004 and the Planning Act 2008, as well more positive debate about how planning could be as the legislation that created the Homes and Communities made fit for purpose. We do this by seeking to insert a Agency, which has statutory objectives that include new clause which would amend the objectives of the people’s well-being, good design and sustainable new town development corporations. This allows for a development. The redrafted clause also introduces more comprehensive debate on the principles and new and important obligations on the social and cultural positive purpose that might drive the delivery of quality as well as physical and economic development of the growth and new homes which is so vital to our nations. new town, through strengthening requirements for Both coalition parties, we understand, support new public participation. It also includes a new definition towns and garden cities—as, indeed, do we. We should of “sustainable development” based on the successful be able to find common cause on these issues. wording of the New Zealand Act. I beg to move. The proposed new clause flows out of the detailed research that the TCPA carried out on the measures Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, there is a lot to necessary to make the existing new town legislation fit be said for the amendment. Indeed, it follows from for purpose. The legislation, in the form of the New what I said earlier this afternoon about the need for Towns Act 1981, is still in force and provides for the more local authority development corporations. I will setting up of powerful new town development not repeat that, but it was in the context of local corporations which can drive delivery. The development housing estates, which the amendment is not specifically corporation was the engine that drove the rapid addressing. deployment of the new town programme and had the My point in a sense supports the noble Lord, Lord following core powers: compulsory purchase of land McKenzie. This country has learnt a great deal about where it could not be bought by voluntary agreement; planning of new towns. I lived for some years not far the preparation of a master plan which, after public from Harlow and, even 20 or 25 years after it was inquiry and approval by the Minister, would be the founded, there was still talk of what had become statutory development plan; the power to apply to the known as “new town blues”. I am looking at the noble Minister for the equivalent of outlying planning Baroness, Lady Whitaker, who knows much more permission for comprehensive tracts of the new town about this than I do. However, the new town blues to control development—that is, to process planning were caused not just by the separation of families, applications; to deliver key utilities in partnership with when they went from crowded urban areas to rural the relevant agencies; to procure housing subsidised areas outside the cities, but because those rural areas by government grant and other means; to act as a were designed with enormous spaces between different housing association in the management of housing; little bits of housing. Harlow was a very good example and to carry out any other activity necessary for the of that. There really could be almost no interaction development of the town. between little local communities, which felt themselves very much cut off. No one had cars in those days; they Although strong on delivery, therefore, the outcomes relied on foot and bicycle, and whatever public transport of new towns did not always reflect the highest design might be provided. We have learnt an enormous amount and quality standards. In addition, there is now a need since then. The design of more recent developments is, to modernise the objectives of NTDCs to ensure that if I may put it this way, very much more user-friendly. they have the visionary purpose to effect change while I hope that we shall see that very much at Ebbsfleet. creating new opportunities for partnership and That helps local committees to gel and to develop a participation and a low-carbon future. Due partly to local identity. They left that behind when they moved the nature of the new towns legislation, little of the from the cities and, often, city communities were high social ambition which drove the originators of divided as some went to some new towns and some to the 1946 Act was reflected in the legal objectives of the others. development corporations. These were quite brief and mechanistic, referring only to the laying out and I saw this a bit in Liverpool, where a lot of the development of the new town. Liverpool council development was in large, out-of-town housing estates that were often quite hideous, with a There is therefore a risk that development corporations lot of huge, tall concrete blocks. I hope that I was might see themselves as engineering departments rather instrumental in securing something for a group that than organisations engaged in the wider social enterprise was eventually called the Eldonians, a tight-knit of place-making. Over the past 30 years there has also community of people who were absolutely determined GC 187 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 188 that that was not going to happen to them. Yes, there in the most absent landscapes there is a rich history, needed to be redevelopment, but we were able to and it is part of the function of the town planner to be secure that in a single site, fairly close to where they able to articulate and enhance that so that when new were already living. I was helped by the fact that the communities move to new places they are aware of Tate and Lyle sugar factory had closed and that we what has gone before, the communities that lived therefore had a readily available site. To the fury of the there, their impact on the landscape and their own Militant Tendency, as it then was, within the leadership contribution to a succession of human development. of the Liverpool City Council, I was able to insist that These are extremely important elements making up that site went to the Eldonians. They have been very the notion of social, economic and cultural well-being. kind in their recognition of that ever since, and that The clause is hugely intelligent, and I congratulate the community is still going strong. TCPA as well. This is what one has to do: to try to preserve Then we come to the processes, which should not communities, so that they can retain and build their need mentioning. We should automatically be able to identities to become what one would like to see—a create decision-making strategies that are open, really flourishing social unit. This country has learnt a transparent and so on, which are managed in the lot about that. Regarding the development corporations long-term interest. If you say that in the Bill, though, in new towns to which this amendment speaks, I was you are sending a signal. First, you are saying that urging earlier the inclusion of development corporations planning is an enormously creative and positive force; with the power to initiate substantial housing estates, too often it is derided as negative and restrictive, but it with the necessary accompanying infrastructure. We is not. When one is talking about the making of new are now much better at understanding this, and the towns on fresh sites, one is looking at huge opportunities planners and other people who have been involved for the planning community to show what it can do. with this deserve great credit. I hope that the Bill will Secondly, it is about delivery and engagement with lead to more of the same. those very communities that are going to move in, not least with the development community itself, and setting very high standards for the development community Baroness Andrews (Lab): My Lords, it is a pleasure in the way that it approaches the making of communities to follow the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. He has said and its engagement with potential communities. much more eloquently than I could what an extraordinarily important new clause this could be, This is all good stuff. Every generation, when it were the Government to accept it. It really does reflect approaches the challenging question of creating new a very different approach to the creating of communities ways of living in new places and new spaces to live, has from the ones that inspired the new towns of the past. to come up with appropriate machinery. The old delivery Those were, essentially, pragmatic attempts to rehouse mechanisms are not going to be sufficient. We really populations which were in distress or in stress. We need to look at some of the powers and resources that have a much more humane and intelligent appreciation are going to have to be put into the hands of the new of what it is to create communities these days. The development corporations. The Minister is very open- noble Lord spoke eloquently about Liverpool but, in minded about these things, and I hope that she will the case of new towns, one is of course creating a give this a fair wind and that we might see it somewhere community. That means creating a sense of identity between here and the end of the passage of the Bill. and belonging from the first steps up. In my opinion, it should begin with the nature of the community and Lord Tope: My Lords, I echo all that the previous the sort of infrastructure that sustains the community speakers have said. I share the gratitude that the noble once it is in place. Lord, Lord McKenzie, expressed to the TCPA about That is why there is emphasis in this clause on key the extremely important work that it has been doing words such as, for example, “sustainable development”. on all this. Like other noble Lords, I had its briefing That is one big change from the world that we were in today and was quite struck by its comment, 30 or 40 years ago when we were talking about growth “There is a risk that Development Corporations might see and new towns. The notion of sustainability should themselves as ‘engineering’ departments rather than organisations underpin everything that we construct, whether in the engaged in the wider social enterprise of place-making”. demography that needs to be housed, the way in which As the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, has just said, it we build or what sustains the community in terms of is very important that we are not just creating new its well-being, such as the emphasis here on cultural towns; I referred earlier to my preference for calling and artistic provision, which is vital for creating a them “garden communities”rather than “garden cities”, sense of belonging and opportunities for people to get for exactly that reason. We are seeking to create new to know each other and share a culture and indeed communities, and a sense of place is fundamental to many different cultures. all communities, but perhaps more than ever to new communities where it may not be immediately obvious. That is enormously important. The place-making and 4.15 pm social enterprise—actually, “social enterprise”is probably Then we have this really important emphasis on the the wrong phrase in the current context—rather, the natural historic environment. Many of our new towns social aspects of creating new communities are, I were suddenly created on brownfield sites—sometimes would argue, at least as important in the longer term greenfield sites, in fact—where the natural history, let as creating the mechanical and technical infrastructure. alone the archaeology and history of the place, was That is obviously necessary—the engineering part of completely overlooked and overridden. We know that the work. GC 189 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 190

[LORD TOPE] Framework. Making separate provision for one part Whether or not the Minister is about to accept the of the planning system would serve only to dilute that amendment in its entirety I do not know, but I hope clarity by defining sustainable development differently and believe that she will take very seriously the points for different types of development. that are intended here, and that we can use the opportunity It is worth reminding ourselves that no new town of the Bill, during what is going to be quite a long development corporations have been created since 1970. progress through both Houses, to try to have something However, urban development corporations have been in the Bill that reflects at least the intent of the established more recently and the Government propose amendment and the excellent work that the TCPA is the establishment of a new one at Ebbsfleet. Unlike doing to help us to create not just new towns but new new town development corporations, an urban communities. development corporation can be designated as the local planning authority for its area. Where this happens Baroness Whitaker (Lab): My Lords, following the and it exercises functions in relation to local development eloquent advocacy of my noble friend Lady Andrews documents, it is subject to the duty in the Planning and other noble Lords, I would just briefly like also to and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 to exercise those register that it seems extraordinary that the Government functions with the objective of contributing to the should not take the opportunity of this new clause to achievement of sustainable development. put flesh on their announced intention to make new In the context of Ebbsfleet, I can reassure noble towns. There are pitfalls if they do not, from the point Lords that we want to ensure that Ebbsfleet is a real of view of a lack of overall comprehensive design; a place where people want to live and work. In setting lack of vision—this new clause could propel vision; the vision for Ebbsfleet Garden City, the urban and, at least as important, a lack of participation on development corporation will look closely at what the part of the people affected. The new clause would garden city principles mean in an existing urban context, leave all these problems behind and advance us into a such as Ebbsfleet. It will work with local partners to period of proper place-making, to use the word employed support them in developing and delivering a high-quality by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, which I think stems settlement with locally available jobs and generous from an earlier Administration. green space. I acknowledge what the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am grateful said. My response to her and to others who have to all noble Lords who contributed to this debate. I contributed today is that we absolutely share that and the Government certainly share the vision that fundamental principle of ensuring that, where new noble Lords expressed for great design and quality, houses are built, communities are created which and for the kind of communities that noble Lords are properly designed and in which people want talked about today. It is absolutely essential that in to live. However, we feel that prescribing this in developing new places for people to live the kind of primary legislation as the noble Lord has proposed is points raised in the debate today are very much reflected unnecessary, and I therefore urge him to withdraw his in the design and execution of those plans. However, it amendment. would be unhelpful to prescribe the objects of a new town development corporation in such detail as set out in the new clause put forward by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I start by thanking all Lord McKenzie. noble Lords across the Committee who have spoken in As the noble Lord said, the objects of the new town support of this amendment. The Minister’s response development corporations are set out in the New does not altogether surprise me; it is where I thought Towns Act 1981. They are quite simply to secure the the Government might be, but it is a pity that she is laying out and development of the new town. We arguing for brevity. It is difficult to see what should be believe that that brevity is helpful because it allows the excluded or what anybody would want to remove from detailed objectives of development corporations to be those objects and general powers of development established in each particular case, in consultation corporations. They may wish to add to it; they may with the local area and reflecting local needs. Prescribing have a particular local focus on it, but that somebody such detail in primary legislation takes away that should not want any of those is quite difficult to opportunity. understand, although I understand where the Government I say to all noble Lords who have spoken today that are coming from. the Government attach great importance to the design I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Whitaker, of the built environment. It is a key aspect of sustainable who said that this is about having a vision for a place, development and we have made that clear in the a community and a town. The noble Lord, Lord Tope, National Planning Policy Framework and our planning focused on the point that this should not just be about guidance. These make clear that local and neighbourhood a mechanistic, technical approach to building new plans should develop robust and comprehensive policies developments; it has got to be something more that set out the quality of development expected for fundamental. My noble friend Lady Andrews, with all the area. As I have already said, the proposed new her incredible wealth of experience, talked about planning clause would mean that sustainable development should as something which is creative and positive, not something be included in the new town development corporations’ which is mechanistic. She speaks with huge passion objects. Although we strongly support the principle of and experience on that issue. The noble Lord, Lord sustainable development, we think that it is right that Jenkin, again speaking from a fantastic wealth of it is made clear in the National Planning Policy experience, made the point that things have moved on GC 191 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 192 in recent years. There is the potential of a consensus to not come up—well, I suppose infrastructure Bills do create something which may not be the precise wording come up quite frequently, actually; sometimes more here, but at least moves us on from where we are. frequently than one would want. Maybe we will have Would the Minister be prepared to meet the TCPA, another one next year. I am grateful to the Minister just to talk through this issue, to see whether there is and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. anything which can be created which does not necessarily pick up that precise wording, but seeks to retain the Amendment 79C withdrawn. concept, the vision and the belief that we should be about more than just delivering bricks and mortar? I am sure that she meets them on a range of occasions. Clause 20: Deemed discharge of planning conditions Would she be prepared to facilitate that, together with the TCPA? Amendment 79D Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Both I and my colleagues 79D: Clause 20, page 21, line 2, at end insert— at the department are always open to meeting different “except that it does not apply to any condition designed to people and I would never refuse a meeting, but if I or mitigate direct impacts on public amenity, health or well-being.” one of my colleagues were to agree to a meeting, it would be important for me to be clear at the start what Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, in moving the Government’s position is. I have outlined that Amendment 79D, I will speak to the other amendments today—but, on that basis, my door is always open to and on whether the clause should stand part of the anybody who would like to come and talk to me. Bill. In so far as there are issues to address about the discharge of planning permissions, it is suggested that Lord Jenkin of Roding: If I may intervene on what these can be dealt with in another way than that is probably the speech of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, provided for in the Bill. As it stands, the clause is yet one needs of course to understand the position of the another example of central government disempowering Government, but I should have liked to hear the local planning authorities. Minister say that she was prepared to listen to any The ability to impose conditions is an important proposals that are made and that she, or her colleague part of the planning process. They are an alternative or whoever it might be, does not approach this with a to outright refusal of planning permission and therefore completely closed mind? There is quite a lot in the an aid to development. By potentially mitigating the clause with which I find myself in some sympathy. I adverse effects of the development, they can enable it described a few moments ago how my experience led to proceed. If conditions are imposed, it is important me to that. that they are properly discharged, otherwise the system I hope that we may have an opportunity to revisit is undermined. Of course, conditions should not be this at a later stage. In the mean time, I am very spurious; they should be carefully justified and relate grateful to my noble friend for what she has said. I do to clear planning issues and policy. They are usually not want necessarily to be part of determining it—it is an interlocking set of measures designed to ensure for the TCPA, which really knows about these things—but that the development does not harm the public interest. I hope she will meet that body, and do so with an open The NPPF states that: mind. I would find that very encouraging. “Planning conditions should only be imposed where they are necessary, relevant to planning and to the development to be 4.30 pm permitted, enforceable, precise and reasonable in all other respects”. The Planning Portal has compiled a set of model Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I hope noble Lords planning conditions. There is a right of appeal against will forgive me if I respond to my noble friend. He is what might be considered an inappropriate condition. someone for whom I have a huge amount of respect. I By way of example, conditions might include requirements acknowledge just how experienced he is as a previous for a development to be completed in accordance with Secretary of State. He will know and understand the lifetime homes standards; for a commercial premises limitations I have when I stand at the Dispatch Box. to have cleaning and extraction equipment approved When I meet anybody, I am willing to listen to what by the LPA; for a restriction on the activity that can be they have to say, but I feel I am duty bound, in carried out in or from particular premises; or for the agreeing to a meeting, to make clear what my starting protection of, say, an archaeological site. To have these position would be. I am always, of course, open-minded, conditions unfulfilled could materially affect the well-being as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, was generous of individuals and negate the planning process. enough to acknowledge in her contribution to the Of course, local planning authorities should not be debate. entitled to sit and ignore and not sign off situations where conditions have been properly fulfilled, but the Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the route of deemed consent is a heavy-handed and dangerous Minister for that assurance about the prospect of a remedy. We have no idea how it is to be implemented. meeting, and to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I hope For a start, the deeming process will proceed by way of that noble Lords who have been involved in the debate a development order, which is subject only to the today might join that meeting. I hope we can bring negative parliamentary procedure. There does not appear something back at a later stage in the Bill to keep this to be any provision requiring an applicant to have issue alive, notwithstanding what the Government attempted or succeeded in discharging the conditions have said today. It is an opportunity. These Bills do for the deeming to be applied—hence Amendment 80. GC 193 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 194

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] with the work of organisations ranging from English No judgment is required of the Secretary of State as Heritage and the Heritage Alliance to the British to whether any adverse consequences for the community Archaeological Association and many others. Their would arise from a discharge—hence Amendment 81. concerns exemplify some of the major concerns that There are lessening opportunities to mitigate the adverse have been raised by noble Lords about the impact of impacts on public amenities, health and well-being—hence the clause as a whole. These organisations understand Amendment 79D. There seems to be the prospect that very well how easy it is to destabilise the planning the applicant himself may be given the opportunity to system. They were engaged first-hand with the creation decide when the deemed discharge is to take effect, and of the National Planning Policy Framework, with all no rationale is offered for this—hence Amendment 82. the checks and balances that took a long time to work There is no certain relief from the deeming or any out. It is, in fact, an important and delicate balance, delays in the local planning authority responding within which we would be wise to ensure that we stick to. Of the given period that are wholly or partly caused by course, they are also concerned, not just with the statutory consultees, the applicant or indeed anyone monuments, but with the everyday, ordinary environments else. In short, we have no idea how this proposition is in which we live in this country: our towns, villages to be applied, and we trust that the Minister will be and everywhere else. The fact that Clause 20 has raised able to give us at least some comfort today. such profound concerns among these senior organisations If a development has been frustrated by unreasonable should give the Government pause for thought. conditions in the first place, and a failure to address I see in this clause yet another attempt to wrench their discharge in the second, it is of course reasonable the planning system around in a way that is deeply that the matter is addressed. But the work of the inappropriate. Over the past few years we have seen LGA, in conjunction with the BPF, the Planning the Government reach for the planning system as a Officers Society and the Home Builders Federation, recourse and sometimes as a first resort, to try to should clearly be given a chance before these draconian tackle problems which are far more fundamental, measures are taken. being rooted in economic and social problems. Planning In conclusion, perhaps I might ask some questions is not the problem. I am afraid that I see this as of the Minister. Could this lead to conditions not another casual, Pavlovian response to problems which having to be implemented or acted on? If so, in what have their roots in the lack of capacity of local authorities circumstances can that happen? For example, in response and the complexity of what it takes to have a balanced to the Killian Pretty report, the then Government planning system. This clause will have very perverse—even identified the use of approved contractors and a fast-track disastrous—consequences, and my noble friends are appeals process for matters concerned only with the quite right to speak with seriousness about it. discharge of conditions. Have the Government given I understand the frustration that comes from delays any further consideration to that route, rather than the in the system and that the provision is intended to one adopted in this clause? What research have the address the stalemate of “no response” from local Government undertaken to determine why local authorities. But my goodness, what a hammer has authorities are not responding to the application for been picked up here. It is so broadly cast at the consent, agreement or approval in due time? What is moment, as my noble friend said, and it is not at all the extent of this failure? In how many local planning obvious what safeguards are to be put in place. I say to authorities has this happened, and how frequently? the Government: given what local authorities, developers What consideration have the Government given to the and communities are facing in the maelstrom of planning potential negative effect of this clause in discouraging at the moment, yet another element of uncertainty is some essential conditions on the basis that the local really bad news. planning authority has the capacity to deal only with I will explain how I think that will affect what other, fewer conditions—thereby impacting on the happens to what we call heritage protection, which is quality of development? What is the Government’s shorthand for ensuring that our historical environment assessment of the capacity of local planning authority is accommodated within our future plans and contributes departments to deal with this, given the huge reductions to them in an economic and social way. Much of our in funding that local authorities have had to endure? heritage protection is effected through conditions attached These are hugely important issues that go to the to outline planning permission, because it is detailed heart of our planning process, and I look forward to work. Archaeological surveys and design detailing of the support of other noble Lords and the Minister’s extensions and new buildings—for example, to cathedrals response. I beg to move. or to some of our historic monuments—are very often secured by conditions. The department knows this Baroness Andrews: My Lords, it is with some concern very well. They are fundamental to heritage protection—to that I rise to address these amendments and to support what we end up with: what it looks like, what it feels the thoughtful and measured way in which my noble like and what it will do. That is what is at risk here. I friend has introduced them, including the debate on therefore ask the noble Lord: what will be the situation whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I shall vis-à-vis outline planning permission? Can we take it focus on a specific aspect that comes within the scope that the situation will be different in the future in of the clause stand-part debate. relation to both outline planning permission and I am very concerned about this, and I speak, in conditions? Can I please have a clear answer on that? part, on behalf of a wide range of heritage organisations. Of course, we are aware of the need for best process. I no longer have a hat on, and therefore no longer have However, we have to ensure that the process does not an interest to declare. I am, however, still very engaged sacrifice the best outcomes for what we all want by GC 195 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 196 means of the outcome of the eventual planning decision. noble friend is about whether we could have some idea Therefore, while it is the applicant’s right to have their of what an order under this clause would look like application for discharge of the condition dealt with when we come back to this on Report. I made this fairly and expeditiously, clearly the historic environment point to my noble friend Lady Kramer about some of agencies would be very concerned by a provision that the roads legislation we considered earlier in the Bill, meant simply that if the applicant heard nothing and I make it now to my noble friend Lady Stowell. It back, the condition was discharged. would be really helpful to the House, as it will be on We all know what it means to be overwhelmed by Report, to have before it the sort of order that would work. The volume of letters and e-mails we get in this be made under this Bill. This Bill gives a power to House alone is not as great as it is for Ministers but we make orders. I am not at all sure what those orders know what the noble Lord means when he says that would look like. things get overlooked and slip by. As my noble friend said, we are looking at issues of capacity here. Perhaps Lord Whitty (Lab): My name is attached to the the Minister could write to tell me how many planning clause stand part provision. While I think some of the officers have been lost from local authorities across amendments in the name of my noble friends would the country. That is a bit onerous, but I know that improve the situation, I think the Government need to surveys have been carried out by the Local Government think again on this. The Minister should take advice Association, for example, and by English Heritage. from the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and look more Perhaps the Minister could help us to focus on exactly closely at what circumstances and processes the problem what lack of capacity we are looking at. We know that that the Government are trying to address needs. As it they have lost many senior and deeply experienced stands, this is a pretty draconian and open-ended staff; there has been a sharing of jobs; and altogether, provision. Clearly, for all sorts of reasons there can be a huge strain has been placed on planning departments delays in the local authority being able to assess whether in recent years. I am not making that an excuse for a condition has been met. The conditions can be quite shoddy work, but it is all too easy for planning complex because they are not only in the area of departments simply not to be able to do things in the heritage, as my noble friend Lady Andrews has said, time allocated these days, and there is a huge amount but can relate to the natural environment, social of pressure on them—we must realise that. implications, traffic implications and so forth. These The sector would certainly like clarification that things are not necessarily easily dealt with, particularly safeguards will be put in place to protect the historic by hard-pressed planning departments. As it stands, environment from any unintended consequences arising the clause would allow the Secretary of State to come from this clause. Any system that allows decisions by to this Parliament the day after the period of the default on such important matters is very perilous. condition lapsed with an order to override the non-decision Our historical environment is extremely fragile. Once of the local authority. That seems too harsh. It is it is gone, it is gone. The safeguards put forward in important that there is some reserve power for the some of these amendments are certainly worth looking Secretary of State. I understand why the Government at. They include allowing the LPA to extend time for are looking for it, but it should be exercised with consideration where there is reasonable justification, discretion. Frankly, this clause gives far too much or a second notice requirement from the applicants power to the Secretary of State to interfere in what subsequent to the application to invoke the default essentially must be a local decision which understands provision if they have heard nothing back. The latter the complexity of local circumstances. This clause is to reduce the risk of the application having been gives no indication of what should trigger the overlooked. Secretary of State’s intervention and the suspicion We are determined to pursue this clause and its must be—I put it at its most extreme, but nevertheless— implications, for very serious reasons. I have spoken that a developer who happens to be close to the about the historic environment, but the same problems Minister and is frustrated by the delay tips the Secretary apply to the natural environment and many other of State off and we have a complete override of our aspects of decision-making where everything depends planning process as a result, subject only to the negative on the quality of the judgment and the detail that is procedure of this House and another place. That is set out in conditions, because that is what makes the too open-ended and I hope that the Government will difference between good planning and bad planning, think again between now and when we come back on good design and bad design and places that are worth this. living in and places where we think, “Why on earth did I should have declared an interest as a vice-president they let that happen?”. I hope the Minister will take of the LGA. The LGA has great disquiet about this, that seriously. and that is shared by a large number of other organisations which are engaged in the planning process. I hope that 4.45 pm the Minister will be able to give us something on this and that she will have another look at it before we Lord Jenkin of Roding: When I read this clause and, return. in particular, studied the Explanatory Notes my instinct was that there seemed to be some sense in this. Where these things are held up for a long period, it frustrates Lord Tope: My Lords, I am reminded that I should development. Anxieties have been expressed. They probably also declare an interest as a vice-president of have been expressed to me by the Local Government the LGA, although I think that that is quite well Association. The only point I wish to make to my known by now. GC 197 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 198

[LORD TOPE] authority’s fault for not responding quickly enough, Misgivings have already been expressed this afternoon, but one of the reasons for it not responding quickly and I hope that the Minister will go a long way to enough may be that the development is not as reassure all of us on this. I would like to understand straightforward as the developer suggested—can it better the need for this legislation. I do not know to still use an enforcement order to apply those conditions? what extent failure to discharge planning conditions is Does that happen? I do not know, but I would like to a problem. What is the evidence of the extent to which know whether it is still available or if it is also to be there is a problem? I am sure that there must be taken away. We all have concerns about the detail here, occasions when local authorities fail to meet the time as we always do when more power is given to Secretaries limit. Very likely, as the noble Baroness said, that is of State. Are we to have secondary legislation that will because there has been a huge reduction in the size of set out the scope and circumstances of all this? I planning departments. That was a problem long before would assume that we are. If so, when are we likely to the budget cuts started. Too many planning officers be able to see that legislation in draft? were going off to much better paid jobs in the private While I do not have quite the strong hostility to this sector. With the budget cuts, the planning department that the Opposition have expressed, I certainly share has been no more exempt from downsizing staff numbers the misgivings and I wonder whether we are using a than any other part of a local authority, and that has sledgehammer to crack a nut that could be better dealt probably added to it. That may be in part a cause of a with in a simpler and more straightforward way through problem but I would like to understand the extent to discussion, negotiation and agreement—and, frankly, which there is a problem. What evidence is there of the although I never thought I would say it, with more problem that we are trying to solve? planners. I then come to the question of whether this is the best or the most necessary solution to the problem. I can certainly understand that if there really is a Baroness Donaghy: My Lords, I do not have the problem—if local authorities are, to any significant expertise of other noble Lords in this area, but I want extent, simply failing to respond and that is holding to bring in the human element, which perhaps needs up the necessary work—then action needs to be taken. to be emphasised around this Judge Jeffreys clause. Possibly, in extremis, this is the right action, but let us We need a balance between the needs of the entrepreneur understand better the extent and cause of the problem and developer and the individual whose life is impacted that we are dealing with. by these proposals. We need to think about the protection of the individual. I and, I am sure, other noble Lords A number of questions have already been asked but in this Room know how miserable it is when something when the Minister responds perhaps I may seek an is happening next door over which you do not feel you answer to another point on the scope of what we are have any control. It might be an overlarge extension dealing with. Can we be clear that we are talking here that cuts out the daylight from a much loved garden. about a failure to respond and not a failure to agree? The impact on an individual is greatly underestimated That is quite important because it deals with part of by the strong lobby that surrounds deregulation. What my concern about the extent of the problem. The consideration has been given to individual rights and Minister referred to the very pleasing number of planning community cohesion because these things are extremely consents that are being granted. I have to say that I am important? much more interested in the number of starts and even more interested in the number of completions rather than the number of consents that are granted, but I Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am grateful hope that it is an indicator that we are moving in the to all noble Lords, but I am particularly grateful to my right direction. However, if you ask developers what noble friend Lord Tope for asking me to be clear from the delays in implementing planning consents are down the outset on what the Government intend in Clause 20 to—sometimes they are accused of having land banks and why we believe that it is necessary. It is important and so on, which they all deny—the knee-jerk answer that I start there before addressing some of the concerns is always “The planning system”, but when you probe which have been expressed about how we expect this a bit more, it is not quite that simple. Therefore, I to operate. I hope that, by responding in some detail should like to be reassured that we have evidence that today, I can go a long way towards reassuring noble there is a problem here and that we are not just Lords. I have quite a lot of information to share which responding to the easy answer that usually comes from addresses directly some of the points that have legitimately developers about the planning system. been made in the debate. As I said, I want to be clear that what we are This provision is about ensuring that local authorities dealing with here is a lack of response, not a lack of hit the deadlines they are already working towards, agreement. Part of the concern is that if a developer is thus providing the applicant with greater certainty not entirely happy with the planning conditions—that about when a decision can be expected. Unfortunately, is not unknown—that can be used as a means of we find that in too many instances local planning getting round, wriggling out of or avoiding a consent. authorities are not dealing with applications to discharge I am sure that that is not the intention here but it is conditions in a timely manner. The impact of these something that we all want to ensure is avoided. delays is experienced by all types of applicants, from There is another thing that I am not clear about. If those building a small development to people who are the Secretary of State gives deemed consent to the taking forward a major housing scheme. The impact is discharge of planning conditions but the local authority most acute where the local planning authority has does not agree with that decision—it may be the local imposed a pre-commencement condition which prevents GC 199 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 200 any start to the work on site until a further detail is I accept that it is important to ensure that changes to agreed, but it then fails to deal with the matter efficiently. the process of clearing planning conditions do not Before I go any further, I want to make it absolutely cause unintended harm to local communities or clear for the record that this clause is all about the unreasonably restrict the ability of local planning conditions that are applied once an application has authorities to do their jobs properly. The noble Baroness, been given planning approval. This is not about anything Lady Donaghy, made a very important point about to do with decisions before approval is granted; this is how this is about not just the big housebuilders but about conditions that are attached when a local authority how it affects local communities. We should not forget has already decided that something should go ahead. that if you live next door to somebody who has had It is at that stage of the process, not before a decision planning permission granted for something, you might is made to say yes. not have welcomed it, but once they have it you kind of want them to get on with it so you know when it is going to be finished. You can look at this from the 5pm perspective of the neighbour of somebody who has As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, acknowledged, planning approval thinking, “Now that I know it is this is not a new problem. In 2008, the Killian Pretty going to go ahead, I would like them to actually start”. review of the planning application process undertook detailed research which found that the greatest incidence It is important to emphasise the important safeguards of blockages and delays in the application process was that are built into these proposals. This is where we get in the post-decision stage, principally delays in dealing to the important points that have been raised in today’s with planning conditions and Section 106 agreements. debate. On scope, as we stated in the policy note that I Further research by the previous Government in 2009, circulated to noble Lords earlier this week—again, if which looked at 300 applications for the discharge of it has not reached anyone, I will happily circulate it planning conditions, estimated that 36%—more than again after today’s debate—we propose that certain a third—of applications had not been determined types of conditions should be excluded from the deemed within the statutory eight-week period and nearly a discharge provision and we will seek views on the need quarter took longer than 10 weeks to be determined. to exclude others. We will be consulting on this later To answer the points made by the noble Lord, Lord this month. McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, On timing, at present local planning authorities about the capacity of local planning offices, it is worth have eight weeks to determine an application to discharge recognising that the evidence I have just shared with a condition. That period would remain unchanged. noble Lords is from five years ago. Dealing with They would have at least eight weeks to consider an conditions—matters of detail—is taking as long or application to discharge a condition before a deemed longer than the time it takes to consider many planning discharge could take effect. The research that I referred applications where the principle of the development is to earlier found that the majority of authorities felt being considered and, in many cases, the detail. this was a reasonable length of time. Given that matters Current feedback from across the sector suggests of fundamental importance will have been addressed that the lack of timeliness in discharging planning before planning permission was granted, this timescale, conditions remains a major concern. A major housebuilder which matches the time available to consider most recently stated that a third of its 5,000 land-bank plots planning applications, is reasonable. are in the planning system awaiting reserved matters On procedure, applicants would have to notify the approval or clearance of pre-start conditions. It added local authority of their intention to rely on a deemed that the regulatory burden involved in obtaining detailed discharge a minimum of six weeks into the determination permission and clearing conditions is the biggest constraint period and give at least two weeks’ further notice to on the industry increasing production. Similarly, the the authority to determine the original application. Home Builders Federation recently reported increasing Therefore, there is no question of the local planning concern about conditions attached to many permissions authority being taken by surprise. that prevent work starting on site. The National Farmers’ Union, in its Bill briefing, reports that conditions are On flexibility, there are various options available. currently a low priority for local authorities but often First, the applicant could choose to allow the authority need to be cleared to meet grant or other funding a period longer than the minimum of eight weeks agreements for new building projects. It added that before relying on a deemed discharge. Secondly, the delays in discharging conditions can seriously delay authority and the applicant together could agree to project delivery time. extend the determination period before a deemed discharge could take effect. Thirdly, the applicant and the authority Thus, when a local planning authority fails to make could agree that the deemed discharge provision would a prompt decision on a request to discharge a planning not apply to particular conditions. The most important condition, it leaves the applicant with a planning safeguard here is the unaltered power of the local permission that cannot be implemented, often at a authority to refuse an application to discharge a condition time in the development process when the applicant is if it considers that the details submitted to it are not looking to carry out the development and can ill acceptable. That goes straight to the point that my afford to bear the cost that unnecessary and unexpected noble friend Lord Tope made. Just to be clear, he delays can frequently bring. asked whether this is about a failure to respond rather I am sure noble Lords would agree that it is in no than a failure to agree. The issue is a failure to respond. one’s interest for there to be unnecessary delays in If the local planning authority does not agree with the local authorities discharging planning conditions. Equally, proposals, it can refuse consent. GC 201 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 202

[BARONESS STOWELL OF BEESTON] On Amendment 83, we recognise that some statutory On some other specifics that noble Lords raised, consultees may need to be consulted in relation to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether it the discharge of certain conditions. When they do, the could lead to the conditions not being implemented. Government expect views to be sought quickly by the Again, there is a clear answer to that: no. He also local authority to ensure that these third parties have a asked whether the measures would mean that developers reasonable time to consider the request. We also expect could just ignore their planning conditions with no those statutory consultees to respond effectively and sanction to stop them doing so. Local planning authorities efficiently to such requests for further input so this will still have the option to take enforcement action if measure will drive up the performance of statutory there is a failure to comply with a substantive planning consultees as well as that of local authorities. It is condition. For example, if the condition were that a important to note that we do not propose shortening landscaping scheme had to be submitted for approval the time available to the local authority to seek views and that condition were deemed to be discharged, the from third parties and take them into account. In developer would have to stick to the landscaping scheme addition, the local planning authority and the applicant he had submitted for approval and that had the deemed will be able to agree an extension under Section 74A(5)(d), approval of the local authority. or agree that the deemed discharge provision should The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, raised some not apply under Section 74A(7). So if there are exceptional important points in the context of the built heritage. circumstances whereby a matter might take longer to Let me be clear that there is no reduction in the level of resolve than eight weeks, there is a mechanism to protection for the heritage environment as a result of extend the determination period through agreement this clause. If the local planning authority is not or disapply the provision. satisfied with applicants’ proposals it can refuse them. Finally, I turn to Amendment 79D. This is not It is more likely that the applicant and the local necessary, because Section 74A(6) enables the Secretary planning authority will agree to extend the determination of State to set out exemptions in secondary legislation. period if there are specific reasons to take more than As I made clear in the policy note that I circulated eight weeks. earlier this week, we propose that the deemed discharge I turn to the amendments that are part of this should not apply to certain types of condition or to group and will respond to some of the specific issues conditions attached to particular types of development, they raise. On Amendment 80, it is not in applicants’ such as EIA development or development in areas of interest to apply to discharge a planning condition high flood risk. We will issue very shortly a formal where they do not believe that consent is likely to be consultation exercise seeking views on what exemptions given. A local planning authority could just refuse the should apply. We will listen carefully to any views request. The deemed discharge will not affect this, expressed by those with an interest in public amenity, provided a decision is made on time. health and well-being about which exemptions may be Amendment 81 would provide that conditions could required. It will be important to consider carefully not be deemed discharged if they were considered by how any exemptions should be defined to avoid any the Secretary of State to be to the detriment of the uncertainty for all parties about which conditions are community. This would simply not work as it would exempt. This process of developing and refining the put him in the position of intervening in local decision- definition of exemptions is best achieved through making and having to consider on a case-by-case basis secondary legislation, where we can work closely with whether there would be adverse consequences. Aside relevant stakeholders to achieve an effective approach from the practical unworkability of this approach, this and will provide an opportunity to update the exemptions measure is not needed. The local authority is best in the light of new circumstances. placed to judge if a proposal would be to the detriment My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked for information of the local community. If it believes the proposal is about the details of the order. We are about to consult unacceptable, it can then refuse consent. later this month on how we intend to use the powers, On Amendment 82 relating to timing, I have already and in the consultation we will provide clear details of covered this but, just to be clear, under the procedure what we have in mind for an order. In the note that I we intend to propose in our forthcoming consultation circulated earlier this week, I included some examples an applicant will be able to serve a notice not earlier of exemptions. As I say, one would be an environmental than six weeks after the date of the application stating impact assessment or a development likely to have a an intention to rely on a deemed discharge. The notice significant effect on a qualifying European site, and will set out that the applicant will rely on a deemed so on. discharge after a minimum of a further two weeks The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews asked about from the date of the notice. This will mean that the outlying planning applications and reserved matters. local authority will still have no less than eight weeks We have indicated that reserved matters are likely to be to make a decision on the application. However, the excluded from the deemed discharge provision. applicant might want to prescribe a time period longer than the two weeks from the date of the notice that we Our proposals represent a sensible and proportionate propose, which is what the part of the clause that way forward which seeks to drive up performance noble Lords suggest removing provides for. Removing while ensuring that sensible safeguards are in place. I the flexibility for an applicant to prescribe a longer absolutely understand why noble Lords have been time period appears unhelpful to all parties and would careful to raise a range of issues about this measure. I remove useful flexibility, which would be unwelcome hope that I have gone a long way in my response to in our view. providing a lot of reassurance on how this is intended GC 203 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 204 to work. More information will be available when we particular relevance to this Committee and to us is start the consultation process, which will give noble that we know the outcome of the consultation and, Lords and others an opportunity to contribute to this particularly, the Government’s likely response to that process very shortly. On that basis, I hope that the outcome in time for the Bill’s next stage in this House. noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, feels able to withdraw his If the Minister is able to give us that reassurance, we amendment and that noble Lords will agree that this will go away a little less unhappy. clause stand part of the Bill.

5.15 pm Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Iamalwayseagerto make sure that noble Lords do not leave here unhappy. Baroness Andrews: I am very grateful for that useful On this occasion, and especially having felt that I was information, and it is good news about the consultation not doing what I always seek to do with my noble process, but in relation to the question I asked about friend, I can confirm that the Government will respond the number of planners who have been lost, the Minister to the consultation before we get to Report. That put a great deal of emphasis on the Killian Pretty response will be available. review, which was published five years ago. When she comes back to me with those statistics, will she break them down so that we can see the rate of attrition Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the Minister for among planners, before and after Killian Pretty, and her detailed and full response to the range of points have some sort of time series? In relation to the that were raised. Clearly, we need to look at the record questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tope, about and reflect on our concerns and the extent to which the evidence, did the Killian Pretty review say why it they may have been met by what the Minister said. I, thought these delays were occurring? There is an absence too, had a question on the consultation but I am of hard evidence of what is going wrong in the system. reassured to know that we will see the response by the What is the problem we are trying to solve? That is time we come back at the end of the summer. what the Committee is keen to get to the bottom of. We probably need to spend some more time on the Did the Killian Pretty review recommend this as a issues around Killian Pretty. The deeming of an solution, or is it a solution that has been generated by application of conditions was only one of the possible the department? solutions recommended for tardiness in the discharge of conditions. I asked why the Government did not Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I shall see what further pursue the other two rather than adopting the mechanism information I am able to provide to the noble Baroness in the Bill. Like my noble friend Lady Andrews, I am following today’s debate. I do not know how much I still not clear about the reasons for the extent of the can provide. tardiness, if there is tardiness, and why it is happening. The noble Baroness said that this issue does not have the priority that getting permission has, and that Baroness Andrews: I am very happy for the Minister therefore it sort of drifts. That seemed to be the import to write to me. of what she was suggesting. We would like to drill into that a bit further. Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I will certainly see I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this what is available. Fundamentally—not to pre-empt amendment. They raised a range of concerns, which the further research I shall do—I think the evidence may have been satisfied to a greater or lesser extent—or we have gathered is that a huge amount of effort goes not at all—by the Minister’s response. My noble friend into the process of deciding whether something should Lord Whitty certainly expressed concern about the receive planning permission, but the conditions post draconian nature of the provision. Even given its that planning permission are not attracting the priority safeguards, it is a powerful tool which the Government and importance that we need them to have once it has are deploying. Like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I been decided that something should be built. It is as imagine from what has been said that we will be able basic as that. We have already talked about the way we to see at least a copy of a draft order, presumably, as all share a common interest in seeing supply coming part of the consultation response when we come back through more quickly. This is an area where we think after the summer. My noble friend Lady Andrews there is scope for improvement. With proper safeguards raised important issues around safeguards for heritage. in place, the measures that we are putting forward will Again, I guess we will have to see the extent to which go a long way to address a problem that clearly exists. they are satisfied in practice. My noble friend Lady Donaghy made a powerful point about the well-being Lord Jenkin of Roding: I am extremely grateful for of individuals and community cohesion, and whether the announcement that there is to be a consultation on this provision might disrupt that. this. Will the Minister give us an assurance that the I think that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, got an Government’s response to the consultation will come answer to his question on whether this is a case of well before we reach Report on this Bill? failure to respond or failure to agree. It is clearly the former, not the latter. Doubtless, he is reassured by Lord Tope: I was going to ask the same question. I that but, again, he stressed the need for evidence. This am grateful to the Minister for taking some time to has been a helpful debate. I will, of course, withdraw explain and try to reassure us. I was very pleased, but the amendment as we are, after all, in the Moses not surprised, to hear about the consultation. We look Room, but we will need to reflect on the Minister’s forward to seeing that in some detail. What is of response as I am not sure that it has dealt with all our GC 205 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 206

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] co-operation and partnership with housing associations concerns. I hope that some of those concerns will be will also be incredibly important in making the alleviated by the process before Report. I cannot guarantee development corporations work. that they will all be alleviated, so we may return to the issue. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we are happy amendment. to support these amendments. I say only, in relation to the proposal to have one local authority elected member, Amendment 79D withdrawn. that the key thing is not so much status on a board and voting rights but the imperative of engaging with the Amendments 80 to 83 not moved. local authority.That is probably behind the amendments, which I am happy to support. Clause 20 agreed. Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am grateful Amendment 83A to my noble friend Lord Tope for explaining the background to these amendments. As I said in response Moved by Lord Tope to my noble friend Lord Jenkin in an earlier debate, 83A: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— it is not that the Government do not support the “Board of development corporations: membership purpose of what a local development corporation The board of development corporations established by the could achieve in terms of what a local authority could Secretary of State shall include at least one local get from that. authority elected member who shall have full voting We believe that what a local development corporation rights.” could achieve is possible for local authorities to do already.They already have plan-making and development Lord Tope: My Lords, in moving Amendment 83A, control powers for their areas and powers to acquire I wish to speak also to Amendment 83C, with which it land compulsorily where necessary. Should they wish is grouped. In many ways we now return to the debate to focus on particular geographic areas, they can, we had on the amendment proposed by the noble under their general powers of competence—new powers Lord, Lord Best, and the question asked by the noble brought in by this Government—make appropriate Lord, Lord Jenkin, about who would implement large- arrangements to do so, whether informally through a scale housing developments. Certainly, one solution sub-committee or through a formal structure such as that was offered was that of local development a limited company. For example, Liverpool has set up corporations. The Mayor of London already has that a mayoral development corporation to drive growth power as regards mayoral development corporations. and development in the city without there needing to This amendment seeks to extend that possibility to the be any specific primary legislation providing for this. rest of the country. Where local authorities want to work together to At this hour, I do not need to go into great detail as secure the development of an area that crosses local it is fairly obvious that Amendment 83C speaks for authority boundaries, they are able to pool their planning itself. It seeks to enable the Secretary of State to create powers so that decisions about that area can be taken local development corporations at the request of local in one place. authorities. Amendment 83A requires that any such It is quite a straightforward measure but I feel that, development corporations so established, as I have already explained, because the powers are “shall include at least one local authority elected member who already there for local authorities to act in this way, I shall have full voting rights”. have very little more to add to that, really, in responding I hope that is self-evident and that it would happen to the debate. anyway.I move that amendment as a probing amendment at this stage but hope to receive at least an encouraging Lord Tope: I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord response from the Minister. I hope that she and noble Best and Lord McKenzie, for their support and to the Lords opposite will at least support the intentions Minister for her reply. I have no choice but to withdraw here. I beg to move. the amendment.

Lord Best: My Lords, I declare the interest that I Lord McKenzie of Luton: Will the Minister just did not need to declare in my previous amendment, explain again? Are we saying that any powers that which is that I am president of the Local Government could accrue and be put in place for a local development Association, which supports both these amendments. corporation are, in total, otherwise available to a local I see them as complementary to our earlier debate on authority on an individual or a joint basis? Is that nationally significant infrastructure projects. what the Minister is saying? I very much hope that wherever a local authority wants to get on with it and do these things, we should give it every possible encouragement. I hope that these Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Will the noble Lord amendments are both acceptable to the Minister but clarify what he means by joint? would just add that it is likely that housing associations would play a very significant role in the development Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thought the Minister corporations. Many local authorities will not themselves said it is possible for local authorities to do certain be undertaking development on such a scale, and things together with other authorities in terms of GC 207 Infrastructure Bill [HL][10 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 208 planning powers; they could share those. Is that the examples of the Government’s enthusiasm for it, which totality of the powers that a local development corporation I know is there. I am conscious that this time on a could have available, or are there things that are excluded? Thursday evening is probably not the best time to initiate such an enthusiastic debate. I am not suggesting Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I hope that my noble for one moment that this is the answer to the housing friend, Lord Tope, will forgive me if I have in any way crisis we discussed earlier today. Plainly, it is not but it short-changed him in responding to this. I felt that I is a small and useful part of the answer. There is a did not want to go off into great detail, as it seemed growing interest in custom-build housing so perhaps I quite straightforward. I can also say to the noble should be clear for the record what is meant by that. It Lord, Lord McKenzie, that the answer to his question includes both self-build housing, where the owner is yes. They have the powers available and they can builds it himself, and those where individual commissions work together jointly, as I have described. There is a for building are of a house. I think that the phrase principle in what the noble Lord is seeking to achieve custom-build housing has now been adopted to cover through this. It is available and possible; they can do it both. and there is nothing standing in their way to take The LGA tells me that one in 10 new houses in the advantage of the powers that already exist. UK is custom-built. If that is the case, as I am sure it is, it is a small but significant part. It is one which is 5.30 pm growing and in which there is considerable interest. My part of the Government are certainly very keen to Lord McKenzie of Luton: If I may ask one further encourage it and if this fairly simple amendment—which, question, would a local development corporation be as I said, was intended to create a debate—were enacted in a position to hold its own assets, effectively through it would encourage local authorities to make provision a corporate structure? Would that be different to how for custom-build housing in their assembly of land. It a local authority might hold them? would give further stimulus and encouragement to what is, as I say, a growing market and make a Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Does the noble Lord contribution—perhaps a relatively small contribution mean to ask whether a local development corporation but a useful one—to meeting the housing need. It would have greater powers? Based on the information would also meet it in a way which most directly meets I have and the answers I have already given, I think the the needs of those who wish to use that housing, answer to that has to be no. They would not have any because it is their housing in every sense of the word. additional powers. As I said earlier, the local authorities With that brief explanation and introduction, I beg to can set up a limited company. That is available to move. them; in Liverpool, they have already set up a mayoral development corporation to deliver what this amendment seeks to achieve. Lord Best: I will not prolong the debate late on a Thursday, but I add my support to this amendment and note again that the LGA is keen on it. The major Lord McKenzie of Luton: So just to be clear, they housebuilders have moved up from building 46% of could set up a local development corporation. the nation’s housing to building 70%. We are becoming incredibly dependent on a handful of very large Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Yes. housebuilders and we need to get back to having the SMEs, the small and medium-sized housebuilders, Lord McKenzie of Luton: Splendid. getting back into business. Many were wiped out during the credit crunch, the recession, and we need Lord Tope: My Lords, I reassure the Minister that I them back again. This is a way of ensuring that they did not feel short-changed and that I feel even less can come back, because what they lack is the opportunity short-changed now. I beg leave to withdraw the to get their hands on land. This is made easy for them amendment. by the use of the custom-build technique and this amendment would help in that process. In Germany, Amendment 83A withdrawn. they build something over 40% of all their housing on this basis of land being assembled and housebuilders building sometimes a single house but sometimes several Amendment 83B houses on the plots that are made available. Moved by Lord Tope There is a slightly sinister aspect to the bringing back of the SME housebuilders, which is the notion 83B: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause— that the smaller housebuilders and those developing “Custom build housing smaller sites—smaller housebuilders and smaller sites (1) Local authorities may make provision for custom build often go closely together, because the big players do housing through the assembly of land within their area. not want to deal with small sites—would not in future (2) Local authorities may charge a fee for this activity from have a requirement for the provision of affordable interested parties to recover their costs.” housing attached to the consent. It is a government concept, which has yet to be enshrined in any way but Lord Tope: My Lords, I have tabled Amendment 83B is subject to consultation, that sites with perhaps fewer to enable us to have what I hope will be a short but than 10 homes would not be required to have any interesting debate on custom-build housing. This will affordable housing within the mix. One might think give the Minister an opportunity to respond with that with 10 homes that does not much matter, but in GC 209 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 210

[LORD BEST] authorities to apply to become right to build vanguards. rural areas nearly all the village schemes for affordable Later this year, the Government will consult on creating housing for local people are of fewer than 10 homes. the new right to build, which will give custom builders Something like 70% of all rural schemes are of fewer the opportunity to buy suitable shovel-ready plots of than 10 homes. The thought that this will help small land. housebuilders to do more is misguided. Local authorities are already required by the National It is the land, which is the subject of this amendment, Planning Policy Framework to assess and plan for which is preventing the small players doing the kind of their housing needs and our planning guidance makes housebuilding they used to do. They cannot get their clear that this should include people who want to hands on sites. It is not that they need to have special build their own homes. Those authorities forging ahead concessions and reduce the amount of affordable housing on custom build show that they already have the that they build, just as it is not the case that smaller powers they need to support custom building. They schemes should have the requirements removed from can also already recover the costs of sales. Stoke-on-Trent them for sustainable housing for the move towards City Council is doing just that and other authorities carbon neutrality by 2016. This amendment seeks to such as Cherwell, as I indicated, plan to do the same. bring back those small and medium-sized housebuilders. The Government are keen to continue to consider Those amendments which seek ways of lowering standards what we can do to support custom builders but, as I or of removing the requirement for affordability are said, I do not feel that this particular amendment is missing the point. It is this one which would help bring necessary to do that. I wholeheartedly agree with my back those housebuilders in such a way that we do not noble friend that we want to see more local authorities make any sacrifices in terms of quality. doing more to support custom build. The other thing is that most noble Lords who Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am happy to contributed to the debates this afternoon are more support this amendment and I support the points experienced in the field of housebuilding and planning made by the noble Lord, Lord Best. Doubtless, the than I am. However, my father worked in the building Government will make reference to their custom-build trade and I feel very much that, when we talk about fund, which was announced a couple of weeks ago. As custom build, we should be careful to ensure that we for our plans for custom build, we support an actual paint a picture to people that it is not just the preserve requirement on local authorities to include a higher of a small minority or a certain kind of people. proportion of small sites in their five-year land supply, Custom build should be available to everybody. With in order to boost small and custom build, and to the measures the Government are putting in place, we guarantee access to public land for smaller firms and are firmly on the path to realising that ambition. I am custom builders. As I think I said before, to make sure grateful to my noble friend Lord Tope for giving us that we give people the chance to sign up to a waiting this opportunity to discuss this matter, albeit briefly, list for custom build, co-operative homes or community but I hope he will none the less withdraw his amendment. land, trust projects with local people have been the priority. We are certainly supportive of custom build, Lord Tope: My Lords, I am particularly grateful to but we await with some trepidation the outcome of the the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his eloquent support. Section 106 consultation for smaller sites. He is much more knowledgeable on the subject than I and he explained it very well. I am also grateful to the Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I am very noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support, too, and grateful to my noble friend Lord Tope for tabling his to the Minister for recognising that I put the amendment amendment. This is, as he suggested, not because I down to enable the debate and not with any intention think it is necessary in order to achieve an increase in of pressing it to a vote—not that I can—or expectation custom build, but because it provides us with an that it would appear in the Bill. opportunity to discuss and debate this important matter. We have had a short debate, but it is important that This Government very much support custom build we were able raise an issue that will be of growing and are doing a lot to enable it. The noble Lord, Lord importance. The Minister made some personal family McKenzie, outlined the way the Opposition propose comments. Actually, a few weeks ago I visited a house to approach this issue. However, it is worth noting in Glastonbury that I had not known about before but that, sadly, when they were in government there was which was built by my grandfather’s nephew. He was a no advancement in this area, so we have some ground small builder and built that house so that each of its to make up. four walls was in a very different style. It was built at Finding a suitable building plot remains the single the turn of the century and was a slightly odd-looking biggest barrier holding back thousands of new projects house, but I guess that it must have been one of the every year. Of course, some councils already provide original show houses. You would visit the house and land for custom build. For example, at Bicester, Cherwell choose which type of stonework you wanted. It is now District Council is bringing forward land for up to used as a bed and breakfast and if any noble Lord 1,900 custom-build homes. However, the Government wants the details I am happy to give them. In the mean want to do more to help custom builders and support time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. this growing industry. I note what the noble Lord, Amendment 83B withdrawn. Lord Best, said. This is an important way of encouraging those smaller building firms as well. That is why we Amendment 83C not moved. announced a further package of measures in the Budget to tackle this problem. Last week, we invited local Committee adjourned at 5.45 pm. WS 25 Written Statements[10 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 26

The Headley Court estate and premises is owned in Written Statements its entirety by the trustees of the Headley Court Charity who have been involved in the DNRC project Thursday 10 July 2014 from the outset as a means of ensuring that the spirit and achievements of Headley Court are carried forward into the 21st Century on a new, larger site, purpose-built Armed Forces: Rehabilitation and to continue to do what Headley Court has always Recovery done so well. A dialogue with the Charity’s trustees as Statement to their intentions with regard to the future of the site is underway with the MOD. Building on the success of Headley Court and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry tremendous support it has received from Help for of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My right hon. Heroes, The Royal British Legion, SSAFA and the Friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip many other Service charities, the DNRC will ensure Hammond) has made the following Written Ministerial the continued provision of world-leading clinical Statement. rehabilitation to enable Defence to care for the injured In October 2011, my predecessor updated the House and the sick in the best possible way. The Help for Heroes on progress towards the creation of a Defence and facilities at Headley Court, an £8.5m investment, will National Rehabilitation Centre (DNRC). I am today be replicated and upgraded at the Stanford Hall Estate announcing that the Ministry of Defence intends to to achieve optimal clinical outcomes and the name transfer its Rehabilitation Centre at Headley Court to ‘Help for Heroes Rehabilitation Complex’ will be the Stanford Hall Estate facility when it opens in 2017. prominent in the new facilities. Key symbols of Help Rehabilitation medicine is advancing rapidly. For for Heroes at Headley Court, such as the Stretcher this reason, the feasibility of establishing a DNRC to Bearer statue and the Pathway of Support, will also put the UK at the forefront of this field, benefiting the transfer to Stanford Hall. Armed Forces and wider society, has been under I will update the House on plans for the future of consideration for a number of years. Headley Court when they have been determined. I am The Duke of Westminster funded a Feasibility Study grateful to the Duke of Westminster for his generosity in 2010 and 2011, which concluded that there was and determination. I am confident that the new DNRC convincing evidence that a DNRC would be able to has the potential to drive significant further advances build on the remarkable achievements of Headley in rehabilitative medicine, building on the world-class Court by offering substantial ‘betterment’ in virtually experience of Headley Court. all areas, providing an assured level of future care that will surpass that which is offered by Headley Court’s current capabilities. Subsequently, the Duke acquired a site in the East Midlands and has gained detailed Cathedrals: Repairs Fund planning permission for the development of the new Statement Defence facility and outline permission for a civilian National rehabilitation centre on the same site. The designs for the Defence establishment are very well advanced and have been drawn up with the significant Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Rt Hon Friend, engagement of the practitioners at Headley Court and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport the direct involvement of the MOD’s Surgeon General. (Rt Hon Sajid Javid) has made the following statement: The Duke has led a major donor fundraising campaign I am today publishing the list of successful bidders to build the Defence facility. Very significant progress to the first round of the First World War Centenary has been made and he is confident that the overall sum Cathedral Repairs Fund. required will be achieved in time for the establishment The £20 million Fund, which was announced by the to open at the end of 2017, as originally forecast. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at Budget 2014, will DNRC Programme will now move to the tendering enable cathedrals to undertake urgent repair work. stage with a view to construction work starting in Cathedrals are powerful symbols of Britain’s shared 2015. history and will be especially important as the nation Design of the civilian National facility to support comes together to commemorate the centenary of the NHS rehabilitative work has involved the Department First World War. of Health, the Department for Work and Pensions The Fund will run for two years and grants to and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, as cathedrals will be allocated three times during this well as Health authorities in the East and West Midlands period: in July 2014, October 2014 and February 2015. and academic institutions. The outline permission for Decisions on funding allocations are taken by an that facility at Stanford Hall envisages provision of a expert panel which considers the grant applications rehabilitation complex with the flexibility to encompass against the published criteria for the scheme and decides vocational rehabilitation, rehabilitation research and which cathedrals should receive funding. The panel is education, and to accommodate and support sports chaired by Sir Paul Ruddock and includes senior athletes with disabilities. The application was entered figures from English Heritage, the Heritage Lottery into on the basis that a full business case for the Fund, the Church of England and the Catholic Church, civilian National facility, which will determine the best as well as church architects, architectural historians mix of facilities, will be considered in 2016. and grant giving experts. WS 27 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 28

I am pleased to confirm that the panel has decided Cathedral Denomination Funding Project to allocate funding of almost £5million to twenty-two cathedrals in the first round. These are as follows: Northampton Catholic £35,000 Removal and repair stained Details of the cathedral grants glass windows. Peterborough CofE £14,500 Three windows Cathedral Denomination Funding Project to be re-leaded to ensure they Bradford CofE £190,000 High level are weather- repairs to the proof. roofs and timberwork Rochester CofE £200,000 Repair pre- Reformation Carlisle CofE £195,000 Conservation Library, the and repair of vestry roof and masonry to the related external South Porch works. Chichester CofE £140,000 Replace the Salisbury CofE £485,000 External repair North West and Tower lead conservation. roof, which is home to the Southwark CofE £325,000 Replace asphalt Sailor’s Chapel gutters with that remembers lead linings to those lost at sea ensure it is and have no water-tight and known grave. It replace the lead contains covering to the artefacts from south facing both World slope of the Wars. nave. Coventry CofE £100,000 To complete Southwark Catholic £385,000 Renewal of urgent St. George’s 1980s gas stabilisation boilers and and repair electrical intake work. to end frequent power and Derby CofE £535,000 Essential works energy failures. to provide emergency and St. Albans CofE £438,000 Repairs to the adequate west front and lighting. its main entrance as well Exeter CofE £60,000 Essential as to medieval remedial work stonework on on the Medieval the west origin steeply porches. pitched high roofs as Truro CofE £50,000 Repair storm sections have damage from collapsed and February this broken away. year. Gloucester CofE £233,500 Conservation Westminster Catholic £290,000 Re-cover the work on asphalt roof of masonry and the nave. glass in the 15th Worcester CofE £80,000 Repairs and century Lady weatherproofing Chapel. to the ceiling of Hereford CofE £200,000 Replace the the Cathedral sound system. Library. Leicester CofE £140,000 Remediation Total amount £4,776,000 work on stone, windows and glass. Lincoln CofE £395,000 Conservation Diplomatic Academy and restoration work of Statement masonry on the West Front NW Turret. Liverpool CofE £100,000 Repairs to the The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities first bays of the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth nave aisles and Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable the Welsford Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (William and Rankin Porches. Hague), has made the following written Ministerial Newcastle Catholic £185,000 Replacing statement: St. Mary’s defective I would like to inform the House of progress in external establishing and opening the new Diplomatic Academy stonework. at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. WS 29 Written Statements[10 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 30

When I opened the new Foreign Office Language EU: Customs Infringements and Sanctions Centre in September last year, I announced that we Statement would also establish the first Diplomatic Academy in the Department’s history. Intensive preparations have been in hand since then. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con): My rt honourable friend the Financial The Academy, which will be a central part of the Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan) has made Foreign Office with dedicated rooms including a library the following written statement: area within the King Charles Street headquarters, is vital to building up the long-term strength and effectiveness I wish to inform the House that the Government of the Foreign Office as an institution. It is at the heart has opted in to the proposal for a Directive of the of my vision of a Foreign Office that is an international European Parliament and of the Council on the Union centre of ideas and expertise; that leads foreign policy legal framework for customs infringements and sanctions. thinking across government; that is recognised as the This measure proposes to introduce an EU-wide set best diplomatic service in the world; and that is able to of customs infringements and associated sanctions. defend our country’s interests in an unpredictable and The objective of this Directive is to improve the competitive international landscape for the long term. functioning of the single market by attempting to align better the range of infringements and sanctions The Academy will open in early 2015. It will enable imposed by Member States. The Directive is designed continuous investment in the skills and expertise of to support the recently updated Union Customs Code, our UK-based and locally-engaged staff. It will foster which is the main body of EU law that sets down the a culture where learning, expertise and collective memory rules on customs procedures and related matters and are shared across the Foreign Office and retained for which will come into effect in 2016. the future.

It will have eleven faculties covering key areas of Financial Conduct Authority: Annual diplomacy. These include law, languages, economic diplomacy, consular work, multilateral policy, and Report and Accounts in-depth historical and geographic knowledge of nations Statement and region. It will have curricula for staff at various levels, provided through self-study, tuition, seminars, master-classes and group activities. Most materials The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord will be available digitally and therefore remotely, enabling Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Economic Foreign Office staff overseas to draw fully on the Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom) has made Academy. Staff in other Government Departments the following written statement. who work on international issues will also be able to Copies are available in the Libraries of both Houses. participate, improving capability across Whitehall. The Report forms an important part of the accountability mechanisms for the Financial Conduct Authority under The work of the Academy has already begun, with the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (FSMA), the dissemination of learning material around the and assesses the performance of the Financial Conduct overseas network and the start of master-classes in Authority over the past 12 months against its statutory London. Curricula across the eleven faculties are being objectives. designed with corresponding course materials. There has been huge interest in the Academy across Government, business groups and other Governments, and the Academy is already demonstrating its value as a means of extending Financial Ombudsman Service: Annual the UK’s soft power and diplomatic partnerships overseas. Report and Accounts Statement Over the last four years we have been engaged in the biggest drive to build up the skills, capability and long-term institutional strength of the Foreign Office that the Department has ever seen. Diplomacy requires The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord a unique and complex set of skills, expertise and Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Economic experience, and I am determined the staff of the Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom) has made Foreign and Commonwealth office should excel in the following written statement. those skills for decades to come. The Annual Report and Accounts 2013-14 of the Financial Ombudsman Service has today been laid The Diplomatic Academy, in tandem with the new before Parliament. Language Centre, the Diplomatic Excellence Programme The Report forms an important part of the and the opening or upgrading of 18 new Embassies accountability mechanisms for the Financial Ombudsman and diplomatic posts around the world by 2015, will Service under the Financial Services and Markets Act be a significant contribution to the long term capability 2000 (FSMA), and assesses the performance of the of the Foreign Office and the diplomatic weight and Financial Ombudsman Service over the past 12 months influence of our country overseas. in discharging its functions. WS 31 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 32

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: of the largest FCO programme funds. Our priority CT Expenditure work this year includes aviation security and building counter-terrorism capacity in key regions such as Asia, Statement the Middle East and Africa. We will also continue to support counter proliferation The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities work, including through strengthening the international and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth rules-based system that underpins our efforts. We will Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable remain engaged in Afghanistan during transition, working Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (William on law enforcement, security, governance, rule of law Hague), has made the following written Ministerial and democracy. We will work closely with Afghan statement: partners to ensure UK-funded projects are sustained in the long term. In my statement to the House of 11 June 2013 (Official Report 11 June 2013: Col 4WS), I set out the A new £1 billion Conflict, Stability and Security funding allocations for the FCO’s Strategic Programmes Fund will build on the success of the existing Conflict for the financial year 2013-14. I now wish to inform Pool by bringing together more resources for defence, the House of our spending plans for financial year diplomacy, development and security assistance to 2014-15, together with information on how we will tackle the causes and manifestations of conflict and deploy the funds effectively. instability abroad. This work will be guided by the National Security Council. The FCO’s Strategic Programmes directly support the delivery of two of our foreign policy priorities: In November 2011 my rt hon Friend, the Member safeguarding the UK’s national security; and building for Whitney (David Cameron) the Prime Minister set the UK’s prosperity; plus our important work to promote a target of 100,000 more companies exporting by 2020 the UK’s values. Our programmes allow us to work and, in the 2012 Budget, my rt hon Friend the Member alongside governments and civil society around the for Tatton (George Osborne) the Chancellor of the world to deliver projects which enhance our bilateral Exchequer set a goal of doubling UK exports to relationships, achieve our international objectives, and £1 trillion by 2020. FCO, UKTI & BIS are working strengthen the UK’s position internationally. together to reach the £1 trillion target. The total allocation for FY 14/15 is £104.05 million, The FCO continues to support work to increase of which £76.5 million will count as Official Development economic growth and meet this target by building the Assistance. This is a reduction of £29.5 million compared four conditions for global and UK growth, specifically to last financial year, and is in line with a planned working towards: openness – working for transparency reduction in FCO programme spend during this and a strong, rules-based international economic system; Parliament. In order to live within our settlement, sustainability – avoiding the dangers of climate change, most programmes have been subject to some reduction seeking more affordable and secure energy supplies, this year. Some, however, have remained unchanged, working for a low carbon economy, and promoting some have seen a small increase and some new areas of science and innovation; reputation – promoting Britain expenditure were added. The allocations were made as an international partner of choice and an important in accordance with our priorities, taking account of destination for business, tourism and study; and wider Government spending. We have ensured that opportunity – helping British companies win new the total FCO strategic programme fund remains above business and promoting education and research £100 million. As set out in the Autumn Statement, the partnerships and innovation as drivers of growth. The FCO will receive additional ODA funding in 2015/16 FCO’s work overseas complements the work undertaken and we therefore expect Programme allocations to rise in other government departments towards generating again in FY2015/16. economic growth at home. The FCO’s Prosperity Fund For FY 14/15, I have allocated £21.75 million in the projects relating to climate change are aimed to area of security; £22.52 million for prosperity work complement HMG funding on climate change, for that includes £3 million funds for the GREAT campaign; example, through assisting with the development of and £59.78 million for bilateral, regional and human low carbon economic strategies in emerging countries. rights-related programmes. The GREAT campaign is used by the FCO and Keeping British people safe from terrorism remains other Government partners in over 140 countries to a top priority for the Foreign Office and the whole of promote the UK as a world class destination for Government. The FCO Counter Terrorism Programme business, investment, education and tourism. GREAT Fund (CTPF) is the main fund for terrorism-related activity at home and abroad in 2013-14 is projected to assistance to foreign countries used by the FCO’s generate economic benefits worth £600million-£800million Counter Terrorism Department. This is complemented to the British economy over the next five years. by other budgets used for counter-terrorism related The work to build our international influence will activities and the tri-departmental (FCO, Department focus on promoting human rights, democracy and for International Development and Ministry of Defence) good governance. I allocated specific funds for the Conflict Pool, as I set out in my statement to the Global Summit to End Sexual Violence in Conflict House on 24 June 2014. The CTPF has been reduced which took place in June. We will maintain our support this year as we redirect FCO resources to where they for the Westminster Foundation for Democracy; maintain can have the most impact, and move some programmes the current number of scholarships, which are an to other Government Departments who are better important element in Britain’s public diplomacy effort placed to carry out that work. However, it remains one and bring young professionals, with strong leadership WS 33 Written Statements[10 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 34 potential, to study a wide range of academic disciplines The latest Report on the implementation of the Sino- including the humanities, science, the law and international British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong was published relations in the UK. The programme offers scholars the today. Copies have been placed in the Library of the opportunity to gain a deep understanding of the UK and House. A copy of the report is also available on to build strong links with the UK. Over its 30 years the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.gov. Chevening has built up a large and influential alumni uk/government/organisations/foreign-commonwealth network of 43,000 scholars in more than 150 countries -office). The Report covers the period from 1 January favourably disposed to the UK and ready to support to 30 June 2104. I commend the Report to the House. our interests, with whom we maintain contact and many of whom have played a key role in helping us achieve our international objectives We will maintain Housing: New Homes our commitment to the Overseas Territories; and we Statement will continue to work with DFID on the Arab Partnership Participation Fund, delivering a UK strategic priority The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department through long-term reform programmes which support for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell the transition of countries such as Tunisia to more of Beeston) (Con): My hon Friend the Parliamentary open and inclusive societies. Under Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Gosport War Memorial Hospital: In May 2013, the Coalition Government introduced Mortality Rates legislation that allows offices to convert to homes Statement without having to apply for planning permission. This has had a positive effect creating much needed new The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department homes. In January 2014, six months after coming into of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My hon Friend the force a survey carried out by the Estates Gazette found Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman that more than 2,250 applications for change of use Lamb) has made the following written ministerial statement. from office to residential had been made. In May, a report by Knight Frank corroborated the extent to Following the publication of the Baker Report in which the policy has helped provide new homes, with August 2013 into higher than expected death rates of applications for prior approval for conversions now elderly patients at Gosport War Memorial Hospital stand at an estimated 3.2 million square feet. between 1988 and 2000, families have continued to raise concerns about the initial care of their relatives We recognise that there may be very local reasons and the subsequent investigations into their deaths. In that mean such permitted development rights might order to try and address their concerns, and having not always be appropriate. In these circumstances given consideration to a number of alternative options, local authorities can issue what is known as an Article I am setting up an independent panel to review the 4 direction. The National Planning Policy Framework documentary evidence held across a range of states Article 4 directions should only be used in organisations. limited situations where it is necessary to protect local amenity or the wellbeing of the area. The Government’s I have asked Bishop James Jones to chair the panel. planning guidance specifies that there should be Having successfully steered the Hillsborough panel, he particularly strong justification to withdraw permitted brings a wealth of expertise and experience to this development rights where a direction applies to a wide work. He has begun to work with affected families, area or where prior approval powers are available to and will continue to do so over the coming weeks and control development. months to ensure that the views of those most affected by these deaths are taken into account. I have also In my Written Ministerial Statement of 6 February asked Christine Gifford, a recognised expert in the 2014, Official Report, Column 29WS, I reported that field of access to information, to work alongside him the London Borough of Islington had issued a blanket and the various organisations to ensure maximum Article 4 direction which had been applied to the possible disclosure of the documentary evidence to whole Borough, outside of the central activities zone. the panel. As at the time of introducing the permitted development right we granted an exemption for the central activities I will further announce the details of the other zone, the (non-immediate) Article 4 direction had the panel members and agreed terms of reference in the intended effect of removing office to home conversion autumn. permitted development rights from the entire Borough area. National planning policy and guidance is clear that such expansive Article 4 directions require particularly Hong Kong strong justification, given the clearly stated public Statement policy goal of liberalising the planning rules and helping provide more homes. It was my view that the Council The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities had not provided this justification and therefore it was and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth given an opportunity to narrow its direction. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable Ministers have considered Islington’s proposal for Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (William the Article 4 direction to apply to a reduced area but Hague), has made the following written Ministerial determined, in light of the tests set out in national statement: policy and guidance, that it remains unacceptably WS 35 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 36 expansive and unjustified. Taking into account the The Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) remains open. Those background of the significant need for new housing in who already have leave in the category will continue to London particularly, Ministers have taken steps to be able to extend their stay. The new restrictions will cancel the Islington’s Article 4 direction in relation to not apply to those qualifying on the basis of seed Class J of the Town and Country Planning (General funding or funding provided by another government Permitted Development) Order 1995. department, nor, in the case of those switching from This Coalition Government is committed to providing the Tier 1 (Post Study Work) route, will they apply to more homes on brownfield land, and our change of those who have already established a genuine business. use reforms are helping deliver these without burdening Those who graduate here will continue to be able to taxpayers. These conversions coming forward will help apply to extend their stay under the Tier 1 (Graduate offer competitively priced properties, accessible to hard- Entrepreneur) category, which is significantly working people. Those who seek to oppose these undersubscribed. Those who have a genuine intention changes need to spell out exactly where they think new of establishing a business here will also continue to be homes should go instead, given the pressing demand able to apply from overseas. for housing and the need to protect England’s beautiful countryside. In addition, this Statement of Changes to the This revocation should send a strong message to the Immigration Rules will remove all tests provided by housing industry that we will act to provide certainty Cambridge International Examinations (CIE), and and confidence in our change of use reforms, supporting specific tests provided by Cambridge English and Trinity new investment in homes and helping bring under-used College London from the list of approved English property back into productive use as housing. tests. These changes are being made at the providers’ requests.

The changes also add a new 12 month “Mathematics Immigration Rules Teacher Exchange” scheme to the Tier 5 (Government Statement Authorised Exchange) route. This scheme is aimed at sharing best practice in the teaching of mathematics in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home schools across England and China, and supports the Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My hon objectives of the Department for Education who will Friend the Minister for Immigration and Security administer and fund the scheme. (James Brokenshire) has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement: This Statement of Changes also contains amendments My rt hon Friend the Home Secretary is today to align the Immigration Rules on family and private laying before the House a Statement of Changes in life in Appendix FM and paragraphs 276ADE-276DH Immigration Rules. with the public interest considerations in section 117B of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 These changes will implement restrictions on the which apply to decisions engaging the qualified right ability of those already present in the UK as a Tier 4 to respect for private and family life under Article 8 of (Student) or Tier 1 (Post Study Work) migrant to the European Convention on Human Rights. The make an in-country application for an extension of changes also align the Immigration Rules on family stay as a Tier 1 (Entrepreneur). and private life in Part 13, which relate to foreign The Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) category is for those who criminals, with the public interest considerations in wish to establish a genuine business which will generate sections 117B and 117C of the 2002 Act. These jobs in the UK. It has, however, become clear that the considerations are inserted by section 19 of the majority of those applying in-country for leave in the Immigration Act 2014. category are those who have come here for the purpose of study and are making speculative or fraudulent Section 19 gives the weight of primary legislation to applications simply to extend their stay in the UK. Parliament’s view of what the public interest under Checks against the tax records of those who have Article 8 requires, in particular in respect of controlling been granted leave as entrepreneurs suggest that few immigration to safeguard the UK’s economic well-being have gone on to engage in genuine entrepreneurial and in respect of preventing disorder or crime. activity, and that a significant proportion have taken employment in breach of their conditions, typically at The Statement of Changes also contains amendments low skill levels. facilitating the use of the non-suspensive appeals provision, This shows that a robust response is required to inserted by section 17(3) of the Immigration Act 2014. protect the integrity of the immigration system and to This provision allows the Secretary of State to certify make clear that systematic abuse will not be tolerated. an appeal where an individual is liable to deportation The new restrictions on switching into the Tier 1 when, despite the appeals process not having been (Entrepreneur) category will apply whilst we carry out begun or not having been exhausted, removal of a further investigations into these abuses and review the person to the country or territory to which they are route to ensure that it delivers its proper purpose, proposed to be removed, pending the outcome of an which is to help foster growth and innovation. The appeal in relation to their claim, would not be unlawful changes will come into force tomorrow, to guard against under section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998, for the possibility of any further intake of speculative or example the individual would not face a real risk of fraudulent applications. serious irreversible harm if removed. WS 37 Written Statements[10 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 38

Land Registry Following an independent review of the evidence Statement supplied by the NCA, the Home Office, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the relevant trade unions, the NCA Remuneration Review Body has recommended various The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord pay increases with an average annual award increase of Deighton) (Con): My rt honourable friend the Chief approximately one per cent. This is in line with the Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today Government’s policy that public sector annual awards made the following Written Ministerial Statement. should average one per cent for each of the two years following the public sector pay freeze. Additionally, in In March 2014 I published the results of the first response to the NCA’s proposed amendments to its evaluation of tax arrangements for off-payroll contracts London Weighting Allowance, the Review Body has in the public sector following the introduction of recommended that the NCA should conduct a full tighter rules in May 2012 when I published The Review review of the allowance’s design, purpose and value. I of the tax arrangements of public sector appointees. accept these recommendations in full. For senior management where the tax arrangements Copies of the NCA Remuneration Review Body’s of individuals should not be open to question, the first report are available in the Vote Office and on May 2012 review specified that, regardless of their tax www.gov.uk. arrangements, board-level officials and those with significant financial responsibility should be on the payroll of the department or other employing body. This is unless there are exceptional circumstances, and National Physical Laboratory such exceptions should not exist for longer than six Statement months. Two departments, the Department for Environment Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Rt. Hon & Rural Affairs and the Department for Transport, Friend the Minister for Universities and Science (David each received a fine for failing to ensure that senior Willetts) has made the following statement. appointments are on-payroll within six months of I wanted to update the House on the progress since appointment. my statement of November 2012. I am continuing to monitor compliance with these Following a formal competitive process, I have selected rules and have recently identified a breach at the Land the Universities of Strathclyde and Surrey to work to Registry, where a senior Land Registry board member develop a strategic partnership with Government and was engaged off-payroll for longer than six months. As NPL. This new partnership will help to provide future a result, a fine of £1,030,176, the largest for an off-payroll leadership of NPL, subject to reaching a formal breach so far, has been imposed on the Land Registry agreement. for breaking these rules. The partners’ proposal provided the best opportunities I have also written to the Secretary of State for to meet the objective set out in November 2012 at the Business, Innovation and Skills, as the parent department beginning of this process to strengthen both fundamental for the Land Registry, asking him to set out the action research and engagement with business by applying he will take to hold the Land Registry to account. measurement science to support innovation and growth. My aims continue to be: While, the vast majority of off-payroll contracts are in place for legitimate reasons, I am committed to Bring greater expertise and intellectual flexibility to ensuring that the public sector demonstrates the highest strengthen the Laboratory’s science; standards in this area. I will continue to monitor Make better use of the existing facilities by compliance to ensure this is the case. strengthening the Laboratory’s links with its academic partners, through new and existing collaborations with academia and industry; Encourage greater interaction with business, driven National Crime Agency Remuneration by closer integration of existing innovation Review Body infrastructure and commercial activity; and Statement Make better use of the site at Teddington by granting partners access to our spare capacity. A partnership with an academic institution would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home also allow for the formation of a dedicated applied Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My rt hon science postgraduate institute. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department Scientific research is often limited by what can (Theresa May) has today made the following Written practically be measured. NPL’s research pushes this Ministerial Statement: boundary and works with industry to apply this knowledge The first report of the National Crime Agency in practice – making a real difference to people’s lives (NCA) Remuneration Review Body was published and livelihoods. The universities will work closely with today. In line with my letter setting the Body’s remit, it BIS and NPL on the future science strategy, enabling has made recommendations on pay and allowances the partnership to boost NPL’s status and international for NCA officers designated with operational powers. influence as a world leading National Measurement I wish to express my thanks to the Chairman and Institute, as well as strengthening its engagement with members of the Review Body for their careful business. At the same time the Universities will benefit consideration of the evidence. from strengthening their own scientific excellence. WS 39 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 40

The strategic partnership offers exciting prospects regularly to changes in demographic data. The European to enhance the reach and impact of NPL’s science and Commission and IMF have also advocated the commercial activities. NPL will continue to work with introduction of linking pension spending to life expectancy. a wide range of academic and industrial partners both The OBR projects that this policy change will have a across the UK and internationally. substantial positive impact on long-term fiscal In the new arrangement, the Department for Business, sustainability, with state pension spending projected Innovation and Skills will own the operating company, to be 0.9% of GDP lower and debt 17% of GDP lower NPL Management Limited, in a change to the current by 2063-64 than if the State Pension age had risen arrangement whereby NPL has been operated under a with currently legislated changes. Government Owned Contractor Operated arrangement. The new State Pension age guiding principle complements reforms which have already been made Office for Budget Responsibility: Annual to state pensions, such as the Single Tier. The new simple state pension for future pensioners, set at a level Report above the standard minimum guarantee in pension Statement credit, will not cost any more than the current system overall and enable individuals to plan for retirement The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord with greater certainty. The OBR projects that by 2063-64, Deighton) (Con): My rt honourable friend the Chief the new system will generate savings of around half a Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today percent of GDP. made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Reforms to the state pension come alongside the Today the independent Office for Budget Responsibility government’s reforms to public service pensions, which (OBR) published its fourth Fiscal sustainability report will rebalance taxpayer and member contributions in (FSR). This document meets their requirement to the short term while ensuring costs are sustainable and annually prepare an analysis of the sustainability of fair in the long term. New scheme designs, the rebalancing the public finances, and provides and important insight of costs between members and taxpayers and switching into the state of the public finances and the impact to uprating by the Consumer Prices Index (CPI) is that demographic change will have. The report was projected to lead to savings of 0.6% of GDP a year by laid before parliament earlier today and copies are the 2060s. available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. The government is committed to ensuring that our According to the OBR’s analysis policy action taken public finances are put on, and remain on, a sustainable by the government over the past year has had a path for the long-term. The OBR analysis makes it substantial positive impact on long-term fiscal very clear that the government’s medium-term fiscal sustainability, reducing the projected level of debt in consolidation plan is the most vital step towards achieving 2063-64 by 66% of GDP. As a result of demographic long term fiscal sustainability. change, debt is projected to rise to 84% of GDP by 2063-64, and in the absence of policy change the OBR As part of this commitment, both parties of the projects that net debt would have risen to 150% of coalition have agreed that once debt as a percentage of GDP in 2063-64. This improvement is in the context GDP begins to fall in 2016-17, it should continue to of updated population projection from the Office for fall in future years. At Autumn Statement 2013 the National Statistics which have revised up the projected government announced that over the course of this scale of the demographic challenge. year it will review the fiscal framework and that the outcome of this review will inform an updated Charter Nevertheless, the FSR’s key conclusion is that, “longer- for Budget Responsibility to be presented to Parliament term spending pressures, if unaddressed, would put alongside Autumn Statement 2014. the public finances on an unsustainable path”. As the OBR note in their analysis, this is due to the spending As part of its public service reform seminar series pressure generated by an ageing population, which is announced at Budget 2014, the government will hold projected to increase age-related spending by 4.8% of a seminar on long-term sustainability with a focus on GDP from 2018-19 to 2063-64. healthcare and technology, and how advances in In addition to projecting the impact of demographic technology can be harnessed to deliver efficient, cost- change on public spending, the FSR examines the effective health services in the future. long-term sustainability of tax revenues. It has projected that tax revenues will remain at a relatively constant share of GDP from 2018-19 onwards, but has highlighted Planning: Neighbourhood Planning the challenges faced by sources of revenue in decline, Statement particularly revenues from North Sea oil and gas. Notably, the FSR’s projections of state pension expenditure incorporate the government’s announcement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department at Autumn Statement 2013 that the regular reviews of for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell the State Pension age will be guided by the principle of Beeston) (Con): My hon Friend the Parliamentary that people should expect to spend, on average, up to a Under Secretary of State for Communities and Local third of adult life receiving the state pension. Government (Nick Boles) has made the following Written Setting the State Pension age with regard to life Ministerial Statement. expectancy reduces the risk that future governments The Coalition Government is committed to devolving would have to take emergency action to ensure sustainable down power to local communities – not just to local public finances, as it allows the government to respond councils, but down further to local neighbourhoods, WS 41 Written Statements[10 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 42 parishes and local residents. The Localism Act introduced Scientific Procedures on Living Animals a series of new community rights, including Statement neighbourhood planning.

Under the last Administration, planning policy had The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home become the preserve of regional quangos, municipal Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My hon officers and NGOs, rather than local people. Friend the Minister of State for Crime Prevention Neighbourhood planning has changed this by giving (Norman Baker) has today made the following Written communities direct power to develop a shared vision Ministerial Statement: for their neighbourhood and deliver the sustainable My rt hon Friend the Home Secretary is today development they need. Local communities can, for laying before the House “Statistics of Scientific Procedures example, choose to set planning policies through a on Living Animals—Great Britain—2013” (HC 372). neighbourhood plan that is then used in determining Overall, the annual statistical report shows a very planning applications. The Government remains strongly small (0.3%) increase in the total number of procedures committed to encouraging the preparation of (4.12 million) performed during 2013 compared with neighbourhood plans, allowing local people to get the 2012. Of the overall total, fewer than half (2.02 million) right type of development for their communities, whilst of the procedures were performed for purposes other still meeting the needs of the wider area. than for breeding. This represents a 5% decrease in the number of such procedures compared with 2012. The It is clear that communities have positively embraced majority were undertaken to breed genetically modified these new powers, which go far beyond the traditional (GM) and harmful mutant (HM) animals. This represents approach and also ensure real community involvement an increase in such procedures of 6% compared with at every stage of the process. The number of areas 2012. having taken the first step in creating a neighbourhood Since 1995, the number of procedures undertaken plan by applying for neighbourhood area designation for purposes other than to breed GM and HM animals recently passed 1,000, and the 20 successful referendums has decreased by 16% whereas breeding to produce so far have shown that local residents are succeeding GM and HM animals has risen by 573%. in using their new power, creating plans that are now Procedures involving dogs, non-human primates, being used in determining applications and shaping cats and horses (i.e. specially protected species) have development. This trend is set to continue. decreased by 23% since 1995 and, in 2013, accounted for only 0.4% of all procedures. The Secretary of State is keen that all planning appeal decisions should reflect the Government’s clear Mice, fish and rats were the most commonly used policy intention when introducing neighbourhood species in 2013, accounting for 93% of all the procedures planning, which was to provide a powerful set of tools carried out. for local people to ensure they get the right types of In 2013, the numbers of procedures for safety testing development for their community, while also planning (toxicology) decreased by 0.5%. Since 1995, this use of positively to support strategic development needs. He animals has decreased by 45%. is therefore keen to give particular scrutiny to planning The latest statistical report and supplementary appeals in, or close to, neighbourhood plan areas information, including those for previous years, can be to enable him to consider the extent to which the found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ Government’s intentions are being achieved on the statistics-of-scientific- procedures-on-living-animals ground. I am pleased to inform the House that I have also today placed in the Library the annual report of the To this end, he proposes to amend the criteria for Home Office “Animals in Science Regulation Unit” consideration of the recovery of planning appeals to (ASRU) for the year 2013. The annual report can be include: proposals for residential development of over found at: https://www.gov.uk/research-and-testing- 10 units in areas where a qualifying body has submitted using-animals a neighbourhood plan proposal to the local planning The report describes how the Home Office has authority; or where a neighbourhood plan has been delivered its responsibilities under the Animals (Scientific made. Procedures) Act to regulate the use of animals, implement the new regulations as part of the delivery of the For the avoidance of doubt, planning ‘recovery’ transposed Directive, and engage with stakeholders. should not be confused with ‘call-in’ (where the original The report also provides details of inspection and application decision is taken away from the council cases of non-compliance with the Act and the outcomes and made by Ministers). Recovery involves Ministers of those cases completed in 2013. making appeal decisions that would otherwise be made The actual severity experienced by each animal by the Planning Inspectorate. used will be reported in the statistics from 2014 onwards and I welcome this change. The Annual Report describes This new criterion is added to the recovery policy of a pilot study carried out to test the process of collecting 30 June 2008, Official Report, Column 43WS and will and reporting such data. The results of this small be applied for a period of 12 months from today, after sample showed over 80% of procedures to be mild, which it will be reviewed. This does not mean that all with 11% moderate and 2% reported as severe. The such appeals will be recovered, but that the Secretary remaining 5% were considered to fall below the threshold of State is likely to recover a number of appeals. for reporting. WS 43 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 44

A key area of ASRU’s work is promoting the 3Rs ensure their compliance, we published the Guidance (Replacement, Refinement and Reduction) which is at on the Operation of the Act. In this, we explain in the heart of a Coalition Commitment to work to detail how we administer and enforce the Act, and reduce the use of animals in scientific research. In also how we expect duty holders to deliver on their February of this year, together with the Minister for responsibilities. Universities and Science in the Department for Business, In December I commissioned the Animals in Science Innovation and Skills, and the Minister for Quality in Committee (ASC) to provide me with an independent the Department of Health, I published a Delivery report to consider lessons to be learnt from reviews Plan with a framework of measurable actions for and investigations into non-compliance stemming from delivering the Commitment through a science-led allegations of non-compliance at Imperial College programme across Government, its agencies, the research London (ICL). The ASC report was published on community in both academia and industry, and animal 2 July 2014 and I have today published my consideration welfare organisations. The scientific and economic of their advice. arguments to use alternatives to animals in research are now as strong as the moral one. I fully support the The ASC found no evidence of omission on the drive to develop methods to reduce the use of animals part of ASRU and its inspectors in their oversight of and which will also deliver fast, high quality research ICL. I welcome and endorse their confidence in the and that boosts the UK’s economic growth through work of inspectors. Nevertheless, the ASC report makes cutting-edge competitiveness. My Ministerial colleagues several sensible recommendations to support inspectors and I will report on progress in early 2015. in achieving improvement in establishments where a pattern of low-level concerns is apparent. The outcome Section 24 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) of all the ASC’s recommendations should be to drive Act provides for the protection of information, given better practice across all licensed establishments and I in confidence, in connection with regulatory activities intend to ensure these improvements are made. I therefore under the Act. I am committed to enhancing openness propose to fully accept all the recommendations. and transparency about the use of animals in scientific research, and I launched earlier this year a public It is not acceptable for individuals to fall short of consultation to review Section 24 to which there has the obligations placed upon them as duty holders been a substantial response. Once I have given proper under the Act. The provision of a licence entrusts duty consideration to the views expressed I will publish the holders to uphold their legal obligations and to ensure Government’s response. I intend to make changes to the highest standards of animal care and welfare at all the legislation during this Parliament. times. In this respect, I need to have total confidence in The Coalition Government expects all licensed all those responsible for compliance under the Act. establishments to foster a strong culture of commitment I have discussed the ASC report with ICL and have to their compliance with all aspects of the regulations now been informed by them that the current establishment and their implementation. As the regulatory authority, licence holder has agreed to step down from holding the Home Office ensures that the provisions of the Act that responsibility with immediate effect. I believe this are rigorously applied and only authorises work that is will enable them to make a fresh start and move justified and that minimises both the numbers of forward. I am pleased to note that that significant animals used and the animal suffering that may be progress has already been made by ICL in addressing caused. Earlier this year, to assist establishments to the matters identified. WA 63 Written Answers[10 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 64 Written Answers Banks: Pay Question Thursday 10 July 2014 Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury Administrative Scheme for the “On the of the European Union’s proposed bonus caps Runs” Independent Review should it be enforced in the United Kingdom. Question [HL709] Asked by Lord Empey The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con): The ‘bonus cap’ provisions of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Capital Requirements Directive came into force at the review being conducted by Lady Justice Hallett beginning of 2014. Given this short time period, an into the “on the runs” administrative scheme will estimate of the Exchequer impact of the cap cannot be be published in full without any deletions or redactions. made. [HL513] The ‘bonus cap’ was introduced by the European Parliament into the CRD4 package without an The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales appropriate economic impact assessment. This is part Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): If possible the of the reason the UK is challenging this measure in Secretary of State for Northern Ireland intends to the European Court of Justice. publish the report in its entirety, as she receives it from Lady Justice Hallett. Bovine Tuberculosis Lady Justice Hallett may make minor and necessary Question deletions or redactions of her own (for example where Asked by Lord Hylton revealing certain details might impact on future criminal proceedings) prior to releasing the report to the Secretary To ask Her Majesty’s Government why it was a of State. requirement that there should be access to only Were the Secretary of State to reach a view, following 70 per cent of the land area of the badger culling advice from legal advisers or officials, that a further pilots; and whether that percentage was achieved in redaction to the text were legally necessary, she would each of the two counties involved in the pilots. consult Lady Justice Hallett. [HL690] In the unlikely event that a redaction by the Secretary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of State was deemed to be necessary, this would be for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) made clear on the face of the report. (Con): As set out in Guidance to Natural England, applications for culling licences were required to have access for culling to at least 70% of the total land area Bangladesh in the application. This is based on evidence from the Question Randomised Badger Culling Trial. In issuing a licence to each area in autumn 2012, Natural England confirmed Asked by Lord Avebury that the applications from WestSomerset and Gloucestershire had met this condition. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to ask the government of Bangladesh to investigate reports of an attack on a vehicle carrying British Indian Ocean Territory members of the International Chittagong Hill Tracts Question Commission in Rangamati on 6 July. [HL860] Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities they have to share the revenues from the sale of the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth .io with the people of the Chagos Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We monitor the ongoing Archipelago including the descendants of those tensions in the Chittagong Hill Tracts region closely who were evicted from the islands. [HL685] and are aware of the incident reported in Rangamati. Wecondemn all acts of violence and call on the Bangladeshi The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities authorities to investigate all such incidents promptly, and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth transparently and impartially. At Bangladesh’s second Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): In much the same way Universal Periodic Review at the Human Rights Council as the .uk domain, the administration of the .io domain on 29 April 2013 the British Government urged the has always been carried out by a private sector organisation Government of Bangladesh to fulfil its commitment to – this is currently the Internet Computer Bureau. As fully implement the 1997 Chittagong Hill Tracts Peace with the .uk domain, the Government receives no Accord which will provide greater security to indigenous revenues from the sales or administration of this domain, populations by establishing political and social rights and there are therefore no plans to share these with and providing a mechanism for resolving land disputes. Chagossians. WA 65 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 66

Burma Counter-terrorism Question Question Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Asked by Lord Noon To ask Her Majesty’s Government what if at all To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the is the funding shortfall for the United Nations High counter-terrorism budget for the Foreign and Commissioner for Refugees in Burma; and what Commonwealth Office was in each year since 2010; additional funding the Department for International and how much they are budgeting for the current Development is providing to fill any funding gap. year. [HL663] [HL645] The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Baroness Northover (LD): DFID officials are in regular and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth contact with the United Nations High Commissioner Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Foreign and for Refugees (UNHCR) in Burma. We have not been Commonwealth Office (FCO) budget for counter terrorism made aware of any critical funding shortfall for UNHCR, work is comprised of a range of funding streams, as and have not been approached to fill any funding gap. well as being incorporated into the overall approach DFID already provides a significant amount of taken to assist priority counter-terrorism partner countries. humanitarian funding, including to UNHCR, for work The main fund for terrorism-related assistance is the with internally displaced people in Burma. Counter Terrorism Programme Fund (CTPF). The tri-departmental (FCO, Ministry of Defence, Department for International Development) Conflict Pool supports Central African Republic complementary work in some fragile and conflict-affected Question states by tackling the root causes of terrorism through Asked by Lord Chidgey upstream conflict prevention activities. As set out in the Written Ministerial Statement on 24 June 2014, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Official Report, column WS107-108, total conflict will consider assisting the international community resources for the financial year 2014-15 have increased in its fight against international trafficking originating to £683 million, of which £239m has been allocated to from the Central African Republic, by creating a the Conflict pool. mechanism to fight against diamond, gold, and The budget for the CTPF for the financial years 2010-11 ivory trafficking and militarised poaching. [HL654] to 2013-14 was £38 million / £38 million / £36 million / £30 million respectively. The administration budget The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities for CTD from the financial years 2010-11 to 2013-14 and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth was £340,500 / £572,500 / £345,000 / £237,500 respectively. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): International mechanisms The administration budget for CTD in 2014-15 is to tackle illegal trafficking already exist, including the £211,000. A Written Ministerial Statement will follow Kimberley Process to regulate the global trade in rough on the FCO Strategic Programme Fund allocation for diamonds, and the Convention on International Trade 2014-15, which will include the CTPF. in Endangered Species to protect endangered species. However, these are reliant of having an effective national Developing Countries: Sustainable government in the Central African Republic (CAR). To this end, our immediate priority is to de-escalate the Development levels of violence and improve the level of security, so Question that a legitimate government can be established in Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead CAR with the support of the UN and other international organisations. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the inclusion of a sustainable development goal to reduce inequality within and among countries Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland by 2030 on the list of proposals being considered by Question United Nations member states. [HL671] Asked by Lord Empey Baroness Northover (LD): The UK supports a focus To ask Her Majesty’s Government when a decision on “leaving no one behind” across the post-2015 on the devolution of corporation tax-setting powers framework, as was recommended by the High Level to the Northern Ireland Assembly will be made. Panel Report on the post-2015 development agenda, [HL736] which was co-chaired by the Prime Minister. In practice, “leaving no one behind”means that targets The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales must be met across all income and social groups. Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): I refer the Noble Language on inequality is included in the most recent Lord to my Written Ministerial Statement of 3 July, draft list of goals and targets released by the co-chairs Official Report, Columns WS164 & WS165. of the Open Working Group (OWG) on 2 June. The ‘Building a Prosperous and United Community: One final goals and targets in the post-2015 development Year On’ confirmed that the Government remains on framework will however be subject to international course to make a final decision no later than the 2014 negotiations in the United Nations, in which the UK Autumn Statement. will play an active role. WA 67 Written Answers[10 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 68

Egypt An initial amount of ¤90 million was allocated in Questions 2011-12 to Egypt from the EU’s SPRING funds, part of the European Neighbourhood and Partnership Asked by The Lord Bishop of Coventry Instrument (ENPI). Subsequent political and human rights developments meant that no further funding To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment from this mechanism was allocated to Egypt at that time. they have made of the preliminary assessment of the European Union’s election observation mission to Egypt on 29 May, which claimed that the presidential European Union election in Egypt was administered in an environment Question that fell short of the principles of the new constitution. [HL830] Asked by Lord Jopling To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 30 June and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth (WA213), whether they will respond to Lord Stoddart Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The European Union of Swindon’s question about ever-closer union. election observation mission to Egypt issued a preliminary [HL739] statement on 29 May. Their headline assessment was “Presidential elections administered in line with the The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities law, in an environment falling short of constitutional and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth principles”. We followed the presidential election closely Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Written Answer by and staff from our Cairo Embassy took part in the Lord Freud on 30 June (WA 213) referred to the EU’s Electoral Observation Mission. The EU Observation business of the 19 June Council meeting. The noble Mission will issue its full report in due course. Lord may be interested to note that the concept of ever The EU Observation Mission reflected concern closer union was covered in the 26/27 June European about the Egyptian public’s ability to express political Council conclusions which stated that “the European dissent and exercise freedom of speech or association. Council noted that the concept of ever closer union The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth allows for different paths of integration for different Affairs, my Rt. Hon. Friend the Member for Richmond countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration (Yorks) (Mr Hague), raised these concerns in the run to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who up to the elections with his Egyptian counterpart, do not want to deepen any further”. I also refer the most recently on 14 May, and in a statement on 3 June. noble Lord to the Prime Minister’s Statement to the We look to President Sisi to take steps to implement House of 30 June regarding the European Council. the rights contained in Egypt’s constitution by opening up political space, especially with regard to freedom of expression and association. Financial Services: EU Action Asked by The Lord Bishop of Coventry Questions Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the European Union’s support To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment for partnership, reforms and inclusive growth and they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury the impact that it is having in consolidating democratic of the European Union’s proposed Alternative reform and institution-building in Egypt. [HL831] Investment Fund Managers’ Directive should it be enforced in the United Kingdom. [HL707] Baroness Warsi: The EU has made considerable efforts to support political transition in Egypt since The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 2011, through its European Neighbourhood Policy Deighton) (Con): The Alternative Investment Fund and “Support for Partnership, Reforms and Inclusive Managers Directive (AIFMD) entered into force on Growth” (SPRING) funding. 22 July 2013. In their report on the 2014 European Neighbourhood Costs or benefits to the Exchequer as a result of the Policy (ENP) package, ‘Neighbourhood at a Crossroads: AIFMD will result from commercial decisions that Taking Stock of a Year of Challenges’ issued in March have yet to be taken by investment management firms 2014, the European External Access Service and as to whether the regulatory cost of doing business in Commission found that no significant progress had the UK against other jurisdictions leads them to increase been made towards the current ENP action plan in or decrease their activity here. Therefore no reliable 2013 and most of the recommendations made in last assessment can be made at this time. Nevertheless the year’s report were still relevant. It found that Egypt Government will continue to monitor the effects of needed to make improvements in key areas, such as to AIFMD on the UK investment management industry. ensure the constitution is implemented with full respect The Government has worked closely with industry for human rights, create conditions for an active civil to ensure that the requirements of AIFMD have been society, and ensure the protection of women’s rights applied in as proportionate manner as possible so as and gender equality. Since this report the EU also to cause minimal disruption to UK firms and to provided an Election Observation Mission to monitor maintain the UK’s competitive status as a global fund Presidential elections in May 2014. management centre. WA 69 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 70

An impact assessment estimating the costs to UK The UK has brought this challenge because, if imposed, business was published alongside the implementing the policy would require UK-based and other non- regulations. It is publically available on the www.legislation Eurozone CCPs to relocate to the Euro area. We believe .gov.uk website. this breaches principles of EU law and the Single Market. Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Financial Services: Taxation To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Question they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury of Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch the European Union’s proposed Prospectus Directive should it be enforced in the United Kingdom. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment [HL708] they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury of the European Union’s proposed financial transaction tax should it be enforced in the United Kingdom. [HL706] Lord Deighton:: The Prospectus Directive 2003/71/EC was proposed by the European Commission on 30 May The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 2001. The Directive was published in the Official Journal Deighton) (Con): It is likely that any eventual FTT of the European Union on 31 December 2003 and was directive will be significantly different to, and narrower transposed into UK law before entering into force on than, the current draft proposal. We will assess any 1 July 2005. revised proposal carefully against our concerns. The Prospectus Directive was updated by the Amending Directive 2010/73/EU on 11 December 2010. Further Education: Finance The Amending Directive was transposed into UK law Question in The Prospectus Regulations 2012. Asked by Lord Storey The Government published an Impact Assessment, which covers costs, alongside the Explanatory To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Memorandum to these Regulations. It is publically they are taking to ensure that adequate funds are available on the www.legislation.gov.uk website. allocated to further education colleges. [HL720] Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): Further Education colleges receive funding in respect of both young To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment people aged 16-19 and adult learners aged 19 and over. they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury We set out government priorities for adult skills provision of the European Union’s proposed ban on short selling annually in the Skills Funding Statement[1], with the should it be enforced in the United Kingdom. Department for Education setting out its priorities in [HL710] a letter to the Sector[2]. As independent autonomous organisations it is for college governing bodies to ensure value for money by Lord Deighton: There is no proposed ban on short designing an appropriate local offer that employers selling of securities so it is not possible for the Government and learners value and are prepared to invest in. to assess the costs. In the last Spending Review, the Government looked The Short Selling Regulation, which came into to protect overall levels of adult Further education force on 1 November 2012, is an EU-wide Regulation (FE) funding. The funding for adult Teaching and that lays down a common regulatory framework for Learning in 2014-15 is broadly the same as 2012-13. powers and requirements related to the short selling of Over this parliament the Government has undertaken securities. In particular, it gives powers to the Financial a radical reform programme enabling FE colleges to Conduct Authority (FCA) to ban or impose restrictions use their freedoms and flexibilities to provide the high on short selling of securities in certain circumstances, quality skills their learners, local economy and businesses as well as impose the requirement on investors to need. In line with government policies there is an disclose net short positions (both publicly, and privately increased drive for employer ownership of skills funding, to the FCA). a continuing growth, and reform of, the Apprenticeships Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch programme and an opportunity for individuals aged 24 and over studying at Level 3 and 4 to have access to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Loans to help meet up-front course fees. they have made of the eventual cost to HM Treasury The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills of the European Union’s proposed restriction of and their operational arm, the Skills Funding Agency, euroclearing to eurozone clearing houses should it are clear that FE colleges operating in the skills landscape be enforced in the United Kingdom. [HL711] must have robust sustainable business models, good financial controls and be resilient to change. [1] The latest Skills Funding Statement is available at https://www.gov. uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/ Lord Deighton: The Government cannot opine on the 278529/bis-14-p172a-skills-funding-statement-2013-2016.pdf potential cost of the ECB’s location policy if enforced [2] The letter to the sector is available at in the UK, until the Court of the European Union has https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ ruled on this matter in a legal challenge brought by the attachment_data/file/293516/140318_March_letter_to_ UK. sector_FINAL__3_.pdf WA 71 Written Answers[10 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 72

Honours CBE Question Recipients Percentage of Recipients at described as recipients at that Asked by Lord Jopling Honours List that level professor level To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage NY 1991 99 4 4% of those in each of the six-monthly honours lists BD 1991 105 8 8% who have been awarded Knighthoods over the last NY 1992 107 8 8% BD 1992 94 8 8% five years were styled Professor. [HL828] NY 1993 101 7 7% BD 1993 93 6 6% Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The information NY 1994 98 15 15% requested concerning the number of honours recipients BD 1994 101 14 14% in the last five years at knighthood level described as NY 1995 108 14 14% holding the title of professor can be found in The BD 1995 102 12 12% London Gazette at www.london-gazette.co.uk. NY 1996 101 15 15% BD 1996 103 14 14% The percentage of recipients meeting the criteria in NY 1997 109 9 9% each honours list is as follows. BD 1997 98 15 15% NY 1998 95 12 12% Knighthoods and damehoods BD 1998 92 11 11% Recipients Percentage of NY 1999 99 18 18% Recipients at described as recipients at that Honours List that level professor level BD 1999 106 18 18% NY 2000 148 16 11% NY 1991 36 4 11% BD 2000 108 18 18% BD 1991 33 5 15% NY 2001 102 18 18% NY 1992 33 2 6% BD 2001 101 19 19% BD 1992 36 3 8% NY 2002 99 13 13% NY 1993 37 4 11% BD 2002 106 21 21% BD 1993 33 2 6% NY 2003 106 14 14% NY 1994 33 8 24% BD 2003 107 11 11% BD 1994 36 8 22% NY 2004 104 12 12% NY 1995 32 7 22% BD 2004 105 17 17% BD 1995 35 7 20% NY 2005 101 15 15% NY 1996 34 8 24% BD 2005 100 14 14% BD 1996 31 5 16% NY 2006 100 14 14% NY 1997 35 2 6% BD 2006 98 13 13% BD 1997 25 6 24% NY 2007 100 26 26% NY 1998 29 6 21% BD 2007 104 12 12% BD 1998 35 8 23% NY 2008 96 15 15% NY 1999 34 5 15% BD 2008 101 17 17% BD 1999 33 5 15% NY 2009 109 16 16% NY 2000 51 13 25% BD 2009 104 14 14% BD 2000 33 6 18% NY 2010 107 18 18% NY 2001 32 5 16% BD 2010 107 16 16% BD 2001 34 10 29% NY 2011 101 14 14% NY 2002 32 10 31% BD 2011 94 16 16% BD 2002 33 6 18% NY2012 94 24 24% NY 2003 31 7 23% TOTAL 4413 611 14% BD 2003 33 7 21% NY 2004 34 7 21% BD 2004 32 7 22% Iraq NY 2005 30 7 23% Question BD 2005 27 7 26% NY 2006 30 6 20% Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool BD 2006 28 7 25% NY 2007 30 9 30% To ask Her Majesty’s Government when officials BD 2007 29 9 31% from the United Nations High Commissioner for NY 2008 27 9 33% Refugees or the United Nations Assistance Mission BD 2008 26 7 27% for Iraq last visited Camp Liberty in Iraq; and what NY 2009 27 6 22% is their assessment of the safety of the residents of BD 2009 25 9 36% that camp. [HL808] NY 2010 26 8 31% BD 2010 26 10 38% The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities NY 2011 30 10 33% and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth BD 2011 30 9 30% Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We do not keep records NY2012 37 13 35% of visits by external agencies to Camp Liberty, though TOTAL 1373 299 22% the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq continues to monitor WA 73 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 74 conditions at Camp Liberty regularly. They report that courts and they may depart from the mandatory minimum the provision of life support systems such as water, custodial sentence if there are particular circumstances electricity and food continue to meet basic humanitarian which would make it unjust to do so. Parliament has standards. The Government of Iraq is responsible for provided the courts with tough sentencing options. security at Camp Liberty, and we do not make assessments The Government is keeping this whole area under of the safety of the camp’s residents. close scrutiny and the Sentencing Council are likely to provide further guidelines on knife offences in due course. Question Asked by Baroness Tonge Money Laundering Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the progress of the government Asked by Lord Clement-Jones of Israel in its investigation into the reported shooting To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to of the Palestinian teenager Mohammed Dudeen. the Written Answer by Lord Deighton on 17 June [HL815] (WA 42), whether the current industry guidance, which has been approved by Treasury Ministers, The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities has yet been issued; whether a risk-based approach and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth under the Fourth Money Laundering Directive means Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): While the Government that in the United Kingdom, United Kingdom has not carried out an assessment on this issue, we parliamentarians will be treated as politically exposed understand that the investigation is ongoing. A report persons; and, if so, whether the industry guidance into the investigation should issue at its conclusion. will need to be revised. [HL705]

Legal Aid: Sentencing and Punishment of The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con): A range of industry anti-money laundering Offenders Act 2012 guidance has been issued by bodies such as the Joint Question Money Laundering Steering Group (JMLSG). The Asked by Lord Beecham last major revision of the JMLSG guidance was in 2011 although some detailed changes were made in 2013 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and 2014. This material is published on the JMLSG mandatory custodial sentences have been imposed website - http://www.jmlsg.org.uk/ under the provisions of section 142 of the Legal Aid, Discussions of the proposed Fourth Money Laundering Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. Directive are continuing. The expectation is that in [HL611] accordance with the updated global standards adopted by the Financial Action Task Force, domestic Politically The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Exposed Persons, including UK Parliamentarians may, Faulks) (Con): The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment on a risk-based assessment, be subject to enhanced due of Offenders Act 2012 introduced the new offences of diligence. threatening with a knife or offensive weapon in a The Treasury expects that if the Directive is adopted public place or school. These offences carry a mandatory and transposed into UK law, UK anti-money laundering minimum sentence of a four month Detention and guidance will need to be revised. Training Order for 16-17 year olds, and six months custody for adults. The latest available figures on the number of custodial Northern Ireland Government sentence given for the offence of threatening with a Question knife or offensive weapon are available at table 8 of the Knife Possession Sentencing Quarterly Brief January Asked by Lord Eames – March 2014. This quarterly bulletin was published To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they on 11 June 2014 and is available from the Ministry of intend to re-examine the proposals of the Consultative Justice website at: Group on the Past in the light of current circumstances https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/knife- in Northern Ireland. [HL463] possession-sentencing-quarterly The figures provided have been drawn from an The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales extract of the Police National Computer (PNC) data Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): The Government held by the Department. The PNC holds details of all continues to urge the Northern Ireland parties to convictions and cautions given for recordable offences engage in discussions about how to deal with the past. committed in England and Wales. In addition, as with I would expect that the work of the Consultative any large scale recording system the PNC is subject to Group on the Past would continue to provide useful possible errors with data entry and processing. material for consideration in these discussions. The The Government is clear that people who are convicted Government has been clear that it will not seek to of threatening with a knife should always go to prison. impose any solutions and continues to encourage political Sentencing in individual cases remains a matter for the leaders in Northern Ireland to work towards an agreement. WA 75 Written Answers[10 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 76

Palestinians Prerogative of Mercy: Northern Ireland Question Questions Asked by Baroness Tonge Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government what searches they have made of the number of Palestinian children have been undertaken to find the missing files on (a) killed and (b) injured this year in the West Bank pre-1998 Northern Ireland royal prerogative of mercy and Gaza. [HL755] cases; how many are absent; where the paperwork would normally be filed; and whether such paperwork is passed to the National Archives on a routine The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities basis after 30 years. [HL394] and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Foreign and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Commonwealth Office has not made an assessment of Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): Before 1998, the the number of children killed and injured in the West use of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy (RPM) in Bank and Gaza this year. Northern Ireland was relatively common since this pre-dated a number of statutory schemes which enabled sentences to be shortened for various reasons, for example where evidence had been given by prisoners Patrick Finucane to enable others to be convicted. The overwhelming Question majority of RPM cases during this period were not Asked by Lord Empey terrorist-related. The Northern Ireland Office continues to seek To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent information on the use of the RPM between 1987 and representations they have received in relation to an 1997, including through contacts with other parts of inquiry into the death of Patrick Finucane in 1989 Government which might hold relevant information. and from whom such representations were received. The NIO takes its records management responsibilities [HL735] seriously and is compliant with all public records legislation and National Archives guidance. This includes routine reviews of records, compliance with records The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales disposal schedules and transfers of records at 30 years Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): This Government’s to the National Archives. position in relation to an inquiry into the death of Patrick Finucane has been clear for some time. Asked by Lord Sharkey We do not need a lengthy inquiry to tell us that To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the there was collusion in this case; we have already accepted Written Answer by Baroness Randerson on 17 June that and apologised to Mrs Finucane and her family. (WA 49) about the royal prerogative of mercy, how The De Silva Review report was published in December they reconcile that answer with the Written Answer 2012 and the Prime Minister again apologised. given by Lord McNally on 7 March 2012 (WA 425). The Government is engaged in legal proceedings on [HL511] the matter and therefore it would not be appropriate to comment further at this stage. Baroness Randerson: The information provided by Lord McNally on 7 March 2012 was in respect of (a) pardons granted under the Royal Prerogative of Mercy (RPM) on the recommendation of the Secretary of Powers of Entry State for Justice, which excluded the First World War Question servicemen’s pardons made under statute, and (b) Asked by Lord Marlesford exercises of the RPM in relation to Northern Ireland. My earlier response of 17 June 2014 referred to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Royal Prerogative of Mercy being exercised on the the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on recommendation of previous Secretaries of State for 29 January 2013 (WA321), whether they have provided Northern Ireland. the final report to Parliament which was due by For clarity, and to expand upon Lord McNally’s May 2014 setting out the findings of the full review answer, until the devolution of policing and justice in of powers of entry required by the Protection of 2010, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was Freedom Act 2012. [HL824] responsible for recommending the exercising of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy in relation to Northern Ireland. Following the devolution of policing and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home justice in 2010, the Northern Ireland Executive (specifically Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The review of the Justice Minister for Northern Ireland) has powers of entry has been carried out across Government. responsibility for recommending the exercise of the Departments are now completing their final reports RPM in Northern Ireland in relation to almost all which will then be laid before Parliament. matters. However, the Secretary of State for Northern WA 77 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 78

Ireland retains responsibility for recommending the The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities exercise of the RPM if it were ever to be used in and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth terrorism cases. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK is actively It was previous Secretaries of State for Northern working with our partners, including the Friends of Ireland who recommended the exercise of the RPM in Syria Core Group (‘London 11’) and the UN in bringing relation to the 18 pre-devolution cases cited (that the about a sustainable solution to the crisis in Syria Northern Ireland Office can confirm as having been through a negotiated political transition by mutual granted since 1998); 16 of those cases were terrorism- consent - this is the principle in the Geneva Communiqué related, as I referred to in my answer of 14 June. In agreed by the UN, the League of Arab States and the addition to those, there were two non-terrorism related UN Security Council. cases dating from the late 1990s prior to the devolution The UK is also at the forefront of the international of policing and justice. Those 16 and the other two response to the humanitarian crisis in Syria. Our total make up the total of 18 Northern Ireland cases identified humanitarian funding for Syria and the region is now since 1998, made on the recommendation of the Secretary £600 million and we are leading efforts in the UN of State for Northern Ireland. Security Council in pressing for a stronger Resolution that would give the UN’s humanitarian agencies the authority they have been asking for to deliver help to Sri Lanka millions of Syrians in urgent need of humanitarian aid. Question The UK has also announced £5 million of Asked by Lord Ahmed humanitarian assistance in response to the situation in Iraq, where the situation is fast-moving and complex. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they There is a need for new international efforts and have made any representations to the government mechanisms to stem the flow of arms to extremist of Sri Lanka regarding the murder of Muslims and groups, cut off their finances and prevent them from the destruction of commercial property in Colombo. exploiting the economic assets that they have seized. [HL642] The UK will be making proposals for this work. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Territorial Waters Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): I refer my noble Lord Question to the reply I gave on 25 June 2014, Official Report, Asked by Lord Patten columns WA171-172. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 18 June Syria (WA 38), on how many occasions since 2010 there Question have been unlawful incursions by naval or other Asked by Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate vessels of other European Union countries into British territorial waters. [HL652] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the future environmental risk of The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities the arrangements to neutralise Syria’s chemical and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth weapons at sea. [HL680] Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): There have been no unlawful incursions into British (UK) territorial waters The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities by naval or other vessels of European Union countries and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth other than Spain since 2010. Further to my written Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Chemical Weapons answer on 18 June (WA38), there have been no unlawful Convention requires that the highest priority is given incursions into British Gibraltar Territorial Waters by to ensuring the safety of people and to protecting the naval or other vessels of European Union countries environment when destroying chemical weapons, and other than Spain since 2010. the plan has been endorsed by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical by the Weapons. Waste products from this process will be stored safely and securely in Terrorism: Northern Ireland industry standard containers, and will subsequently be Question disposed of in Germany and Finland, in accordance Asked by Lord Laird with national legislation. No waste from this process To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many will be disposed of at sea. suspects of terrorist-related offences have been given assurances by letter that they will not be subject to Syria and Iraq investigation. [HL635] Question Asked by Lord Turnberg The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): The administrative To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action scheme relating to so-called “On the Runs” did not they are proposing in the United Nations to alleviate promise people that they would not be subject to the situations in Syria and Iraq; and what assessment investigation. Rather, the letters issued were only a they have made of the likelihood of the United statement of fact at a particular point in time that the Nations taking such action. [HL742] individuals concerned were not sought for arrest. WA 79 Written Answers[10 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 80

As the Noble Lord may be aware the Report by UAE Lady Justice Hallett into the “On the Runs”administrative USA scheme will be published by the Secretary of State for 2010/11 Northern Ireland on 17 July 2014. Australia Brazil UK Membership of EU Brunei Question India Asked by Lord Tebbit Iraq To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 24 June Kuwait (WA 153–4), stating that “this Government is clear Libya that membership of a reformed European Union is Malaysia in the United Kingdom’s interest”, what is their Mexico assessment of the United Kingdom’s membership of an unreformed European Union. [HL757] Pakistan South Korea Turkey The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities UAE and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth USA Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): I refer the Noble Lord 2011/12 to the speech on the Future of the European Union by Algeria the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member Australia for Witney (Mr Cameron), on the 23 January 2013; Brazil and the speech on Britain and Europe by the Deputy Brunei Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for India Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), on the 8th October 2013. Iraq Japan Saudi Arabia UK Trade and Investment Defence and Kuwait Security Organisation Libya Question Malaysia Mexico Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Oman Pakistan To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the South Korea priority markets for the UK Trade & Investment Turkey Defence and Security Organisation in 2014–15; and UAE how they differ from those in each of the last five USA years. [HL766] 2012/13 Australia The Minister of State, Department for Business, Brazil Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Canada Office (Lord Livingston of Parkhead) (Con): The UKTI Europe/NATO/EU (as a collective market) DSO Priority Markets for 2014-15 and the last 5 years India are listed below. Indonesia Japan 2009/10 Saudi Arabia Kuwait Algeria Libya Australia Malaysia Brazil Oman Denmark Qatar South Korea India Thailand Iraq Turkey Japan UAE Saudi Arabia Kuwait USA Libya 2013/14 Malaysia Australia Mexico Brazil Oman Canada South Africa Europe/NATO/EU (as a collective market) South Korea India Turkey Indonesia WA 81 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 82

Japan A new list was not created in 2011-12 but the list Saudi Arabia created for 2010-11 remained extant. Kuwait Libya UN Peacebuilding Commission Malaysia Question Oman Qatar Asked by Lord Hylton South Korea To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Thailand will propose that the United Nations Peace Building Turkey Commission’s mandate be enlarged to include conflict UAE prevention and that its resources be increased. USA [HL795] 2014/15 Australia Bahrain The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Brazil Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The United Nation’s France Peacebuilding Commission (PBC) is already concerned India with ensuring the international community is making Indonesia efforts to prevent conflict in countries on the PBC Japan agenda. The PBC’s mandate is to focus political attention Saudi Arabia on fragile states, bring together relevant international Kuwait actors, and mobilise resources in order to help countries Malaysia recover from conflict and avoid a relapse into conflict. Oman Qatar There will be a thorough review of the UN’s South Korea Peacebuilding Architecture, including the PBC, in 2015, which will be an opportunity to improve the way in Turkey which the whole UN system helps countries affected UAE by conflict and determine the most effective role that USA the PBC can play in the future. Thursday 10 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Rehabilitation and Recovery...... 25 Hong Kong...... 33

Cathedrals: Repairs Fund...... 26 Housing: New Homes...... 34

Diplomatic Academy...... 28 Immigration Rules...... 35

EU: Customs Infringements and Sanctions ...... 30 Land Registry ...... 37

Financial Conduct Authority: Annual Report and National Crime Agency Remuneration Review Body ...... 37 Accounts ...... 30 National Physical Laboratory...... 38 Financial Ombudsman Service: Annual Report and Accounts ...... 30 Office for Budget Responsibility: Annual Report...... 39

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Expenditure...... 31 Planning: Neighbourhood Planning ...... 40

Gosport War Memorial Hospital: Mortality Rates...... 33 Scientific Procedures on Living Animals...... 42

Thursday 10 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Administrative Scheme for the “On the Runs” Legal Aid: Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Independent Review...... 63 Act 2012 ...... 73

Bangladesh ...... 63 Money Laundering...... 74 Banks: Pay...... 64 Northern Ireland Government...... 74 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 64 Palestinians...... 75 British Indian Ocean Territory ...... 64 Patrick Finucane...... 75 Burma ...... 65

Central African Republic...... 65 Powers of Entry...... 75

Corporation Tax: Northern Ireland...... 65 Prerogative of Mercy: Northern Ireland ...... 76

Counter-terrorism...... 66 Sri Lanka...... 77 Developing Countries: Sustainable Development ...... 66 Syria ...... 77 Egypt...... 67 Syria and Iraq...... 77 European Union...... 68

Financial Services: EU Action...... 68 Territorial Waters ...... 78

Financial Services: Taxation ...... 70 Terrorism: Northern Ireland...... 78

Further Education: Finance ...... 70 UK Membership of EU...... 79 Honours ...... 71 UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Iraq...... 72 Organisation...... 79

Israel...... 73 UN Peacebuilding Commission ...... 82 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL394] ...... 76 [HL709] ...... 64

[HL463] ...... 74 [HL710] ...... 69

[HL511] ...... 76 [HL711] ...... 69

[HL513] ...... 63 [HL720] ...... 70

[HL611] ...... 73 [HL735] ...... 75

[HL635] ...... 78 [HL736] ...... 65

[HL642] ...... 77 [HL739] ...... 68

[HL645] ...... 65 [HL742] ...... 77

[HL652] ...... 78 [HL755] ...... 75

[HL654] ...... 65 [HL757] ...... 79

[HL663] ...... 66 [HL766] ...... 79

[HL671] ...... 66 [HL795] ...... 82

[HL680] ...... 77 [HL808] ...... 72

[HL685] ...... 64 [HL815] ...... 73

[HL690] ...... 64 [HL824] ...... 75

[HL705] ...... 74 [HL828] ...... 71

[HL706] ...... 70 [HL830] ...... 67

[HL707] ...... 68 [HL831] ...... 67

[HL708] ...... 69 [HL860] ...... 63 Volume 755 Thursday No. 23 10 July 2014

CONTENTS

Thursday 10 July 2014 Questions European Commission: UK Member...... 269 NHS: Hospital Waiting Times ...... 271 NHS: District Nurses ...... 274 Arts: Lottery Funding...... 276 Business of the House Timing of Debates ...... 279 Communications Data and Interception Statement...... 279 BBC World Service and British Council Motion to Take Note ...... 291 Legal Systems: Rule of Law Motion to Take Note ...... 329 Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill [HL] Committee (3rd Day) ...... GC 155 Written Statements...... WS 25 Written Answers...... WA 6 3