Interview with Benjamin Brown October 31, 1996 Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library

Georgia Government Documentation Project

Series E: Black Involvement in Politics

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CITATION:

Brown, Benjamin, Interviewed by Clifford Kuhn, 31 October 1996, P1996-01, Series E. Black Involvement in Politics, Georgia Government Documentation Project, Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library, Atlanta.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

GEORGIA GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTATION PROJECT

GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY

SERIES E: BLACK INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS

NARRATOR: BENJAMIN BROWN

INTERVIEWED BY: CLIFF KUHN

LOCATION: ATLANTA, GEORGIA

DATE: OCTOBER 31, 1996

[TAPE 1, SIDE 1]

KUHN: This is an interview with Ben Brown, former state representative in Georgia

by Cliff Kuhn, Georgia Government Documentation Project, October 31st, 1996, at

Ben Brown's apartment in Atlanta, Georgia.

You know, since we've just talked about Paschal's, maybe we could talk about

Paschal's about a kind of a meeting--the role of Paschal's in those years, say '60 to '64,

'65 and beyond.

BROWN: Well, Paschal's was a center for convening. Everybody--ministers, politicians,

businessmen, whites, blacks, businesses. It was a center. You would hear people talk

about it being the mecca for black Americans. Things emanated from Paschal's that

were significant to life for black Americans. Dr. King would meet there, Andrew Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Young would come through there. Of course, Andrew was with Dr. King at the time.

I mean, he was a protégé. But the local political gestation started right there. You'd

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

get in there, you'd talk about who was going to run for office. I mean, you actually

name--There would be a group of people, John Cox, Jesse Hill would stop through

there sometimes, Q.V. Williamson. Those people would sit around and they would

discuss who ought to be running, who shouldn't be running, and next thing you knew,

they were running. I mean, there was no formality to much of that. But it was just a

place where people came and shared ideas, and many times ended up, it resulted into

action.

KUHN: You know, before we move into the state legislature, I was also interested in

that period, '60 to '65, maybe describe the Atlanta Negro Voters League at that point,

compared to when you were a kid; and then also the All Citizen's Registration

Committee, too.

BROWN: Oh, yes. The All Citizen's Registration Committee. It looked like to me John

Calhoun headed that up. The All Citizen's Registration Committee. That crossed

political lines. It's hard for me to separate out how I saw those two entities as a kid

and as an adult because it was one continuum. I felt like I just grew up in it.

The Negro Voters League was a bipartisan organization. I mean, the

Republicans and the Democrats together voted on candidates, endorsed candidates,

and affected elections in this town, for years. They would endorse these people and

send out the ballots in the mail. I mean, that's how sophisticated they were. They sent

those ballots out in the mail. You got in the mail a letter, a card saying Vote for, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Recommended by the Atlanta Negro Voters League. And it was signed by the powers

that be, A.T. Walden, [Reverend] W.M. Jackson.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

KUHN: Who's W.M. Jackson?

BROWN: He was a big Republican, Reverend Jackson. You don't hear his name much,

but he was very, very strong in Atlanta in that Atlanta Negro Voters League.

KUHN: Now, by the '60s Walden had kind of passed its his heyday, certainly.

BROWN: Oh, yes. No question.

KUHN: Who else were the new people coming up into the Voter's League by the time,

certainly, by Horace's campaign, by your campaign, and so forth?

BROWN: Well, Jesse Hill, Hollowell --

KUHN: Johnson? Was Leroy involved or not?

BROWN: Leroy Johnson. But, see, Leroy was a politician himself so his role was

suspect. He was there, but he kind of played it a little lower. But the League never

recaptured the glory of the '50s. I mean, although it made a transition when Jesse and

them took over, it began to demise because, you know, people didn't know Jesse and

them. They looked at them as upstarts who was going to try to do something.

KUHN: It just occurred to me. We haven't really talked about the mayoral races,

either, with Hartsfield or particularly the one with Ivan Allen and Mugqsy Smith.

BROWN: [chuckling] Well, the Ivan Allen race, the first one, I was out of town. I was

at law school. But the black community supported him very strongly. And then--the

one following that, Mugqsy Smith was running. And I supported Mugsy Smith. The

young folk supported Mugqsy Smith. He was a strange old man, probably no Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library different from all the rest of them of that era, but he gave an image of progress, of

progression, a progressive image. I don't know why I was supportive. It looked to me

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

Julian Bond was supporting him, too, yes.

KUHN: When you say he's a strange old man, you mean what?

BROWN: Well, I mean, it was--I guess we were just excited being conscious of the

political process and having the wherewithal to make our own choice about who we

ought to support, and Mugqsy was running against Ivan, wasn't he? Yes. And I think

Ivan had gotten a scar by putting up the Peyton wall, and that was the thing that

caused some of the younger folk to say, "Well, who is this man, wanting to segregate

us out." They thought he was bad. Ivan went on and won the election, but Mugqsy

gave him a good run for it because Mugsy got most of the black votes.

KUHN: Mugsy had been in the state legislature and had opposed the closing of the

schools, too.

BROWN: Yes, he had demonstrated a fairness that most of the white politicians had not

demonstrated back in that day.

KUHN: He's interesting to me because he's not really of the power structure.

BROWN: He was from the proletariat. Well, he was not of the blue-blood family. And

that was another thing we could identify with. He was folksy, and he made it--you

know, he made his mark that way.

KUHN: Now, did I read somewhere that you had gone to the Democratic National

Convention in Atlantic City?

BROWN: Yes. I was a page. 1964. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library [CROSS-TALK]

BROWN: That was my first convention. That was the first time we had an integrated

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

delegation. Leroy and Johnny Anderson, I think and Mr. Walden were, I think, the

delegates to that convention. I went as a page. At that time, I was vice president of

the Young Democrats of Georgia, the first black to serve in that capacity. It was so

exciting going up to Atlantic City. I remember driving up with my friend I told you

about, Buddy Hilliard Lee, who was very instrumental in my election, a personal

friend.

KUHN: Is that Hilliard?

BROWN: Hilliard, Hilliard. And to get there and find out that my law professor, Pat

Harris, was one of the principal speakers, I was very proud of that. Because I'd never

been to a national convention before, that I, you know, Studied them and all that stuff.

So that was very exciting. And I went to every convention thereafter until 1988.

KUHN: Here. Right.

BROWN: Well, no, I was here. The one in New York in '92. '92. I went to every

convention except '92. I served on the site selection committee for the Atlanta

Convention.

KUHN: Did you or anybody else in the Georgia delegation in '64 have anything or any

contact with Miss Hamer?

BROWN: Well, we were--I didn't have any direct contact, but I'm sure somebody in our

group did. We were so busy--I was so busy being excited by being there, I didn't get

into the issues as much. What is this structure? What is going on? You know. I was Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library awed by all of that. And the magnitude of it, the excitement. I was conscious of the

Hamer issue, and I was supportive of it, but I was not personally involved with it.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

KUHN: Maybe you could describe the process between, say, '60 and '65 of increasing

involvement of black Georgians in the state Democratic Party and the reaction of the

state Democratic Executive Committee and so forth, beyond Fulton County.

BROWN: Yes. What happened with the Hamer thing is that it did open my eyes as to

see what ought to be, you know. When I came back, I began to work more diligently

to get more people into the Young Democrats. Then I started--Then the next year,

'65, I got elected to the legislature, which took me out of the Young Democrats role.

And put me in mainstream.

KUHN: Right. Let’s talk about Young Democrats and, again, what was the response

of white Young Democrats?

BROWN: We had a very liberal group, I mean. It was like, "Oh, we can do this

together." And it was fun. It was fun. It was a group of young folk who wanted to

show the nation that we're not backward and we're not afraid of each other down here.

KUHN: Who were some of the folks involved?

BROWN: One person in particular, Barbara Johnson. She calls herself Bea Johnson

now. She's gone on to be a high-fashion something. Waymon Wright was a friend

whom I took and made president. He was the first black president, but I did it. There,

looked like to me, was Stu Isaacs that came along during that period. I think Stu was

a Young Democrat along in there with us. I might be putting it out of perspective.

But this girl, Barbara Johnson. If you could ever find her, she could tell you about all Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library those people I don’t remember. Oh, I know. John Blackman, who is now--John is

something with the state, attorney. Oh, I can see those folk right now. Um, ooh, they

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

all did alright. John Blackman. He's chairman of the state party now, I believe.

KUHN: I guess I'm interested more in sort of--I mean, the Vandivers, the

segregationists, the George Stewarts. You know, the old guard segregationists who

were powers in the state Democratic Party.

BROWN: The executive director in 1965 was Zell Miller.

KUHN: Of the Democratic Party? Okay.

BROWN: When I qualified to run for office, Zell was the executive director of the Party,

and I went down there and put my name down, Benjamin D. Brown. He said, "Why

are you putting all that down there?" He said, "You've got a good political name.

Why don't you put Ben Brown?" And that's why I started using Ben Brown as my

political name. So Zell was there. Zell had succeeded Travis Clark. Oooh, Travis,

Travis, Travis. Some kind of Travis, who was Lester Maddox's executive assistant.

Now, Travis was--It wasn't Travis Clark. But Travis is his last name. Was a nice

guy. And he tried to be a blend between the old and the new, but he was with Lester

Maddox.

KUHN: Maddox was elected in '66 though.

BROWN: Yes, yes.

KUHN: I'm talking a little bit before that. There are still characters like Peter Zack

Geer around.

BROWN: Well, Peter Zack was in the papers, but I didn't know Peter Zack. I mean, that Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library was a little before Vandiver. I really didn't know Vandiver. See, Carl Sanders was

governor when I got elected. And that's when my real hands-on knowledge began

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

with the Georgia political scene. Now, Peter Zack Geer was an S.O.B. As far as I was

concerned. I mean, you talk about a redneck. That was a redneck. I mean, his neck

was red and his hair was pompadour. He was a mess. He was a womanizer, a

drinker. Is he still living? Where is he, Albany?

KUHN: Mmmm, no. Down that way. I think in--It's in between Macon and Albany

somewhere.

BROWN: Oh, he was a mess. He was absolutely a mess. I cannot find anything positive

to identify with on that.

KUHN: You said before that you had already known Carl before you were in office.

BROWN: I knew Carl because he was governor when I went to the convention in '64.

KUHN: Okay. So he was part of the delegation.

BROWN: Yes. And he was the one that presented this image because they were sort of

boosting him as a potential vice presidential nominee.

KUHN: Moderate, New South.

BROWN: Yes, New South. But he was premature. Yes, they were trying to pump him

up to be that, and I was checking that out. And he was--I mean, he was somebody

you could be proud of. I mean, he was not--

KUHN: He defeated Marvin Griffin in the election.

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: Okay. So you're known already, in a sense, before you get sworn in. When Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library we left last time, we were talking about the Bond affair. Anything else you want to

add about, sort of, that weekend before getting sworn in and just--?

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: I think I talked about the compromises that we were trying to get going, and

Howard said we ain’t doing to do none of that. We were going to face the music.

KUHN: Who else was involved with the process? Was Leroy?

BROWN: Leroy was involved, I was involved, Carl Sanders, George T. Smith, and I

think Ivan Allen might have been involved in that, too. I mean you don’t know who

else was involved. But those were the core people at the capitol that I was relating to.

KUHN: And, you know, maybe you could talk about who was saying what and what

was going on.

BROWN: Well, my proposition--I can only speak for me.

KUHN: Okay.

BROWN: And basically I'll try to recall what I--I asked Julian, you know, how far would

he go to try to quell this thing. I said, "I know we can't go out there and apologize,

but I think you could make some kind of conciliatory statement that would soften the

confusion." He gave some thought to that, but Howard came back and said, "No, we

ain't gonna do none of that."

Howard told Carl and them that they needed to go to Sloppy Floyd and them

to get them to withdraw the resolution, and we could work this thing out. That's what

I presented to them, and they called me back and said, "No. They want something.

They're mad then. They're mad." And I think the final thing was you keep your

troops cool and we'll try to keep ours cool. Let's just get it resolved. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library That was the bottom line of it, but there was some very intense conversations

going on. I was just amazed that I was caught up in it. I mean, everything just

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

happened spontaneously. It was not like I was prepared to do any of that. But I must

have been.

KUHN: And what a shock, you know, right as you enter.

BROWN: Yes, as I get ready to go into a whole new bag, I mean, a whole new situation,

and here I am, and I got characterized as, you know, just like Julian, although I

managed mine. See, because I could have easily been the one that did the same thing

because they tried to interview me that day, but I don't ever give interviews without

knowing what I'm being interviewed on.

KUHN: Who was it?

BROWN: Spivey, the little news reporter. I mean, Julian and I were together most of

that time. But I don't give interviews unless I know what I'm going to give an

interview on. And that's what I told--Because it could have easily been either one of

us.

KUHN: Right, although he was with the organization and stood by SNCC.

BROWN: I was the founder of SNCC. I was one of the founders of SNCC, so it could

easily have been translated. But, you know, they just had to pick on somebody whom

they thought could get them the mileage they wanted, to put up this last stand.

KUHN: Sloppy Floyd and who else was leading the charge?

BROWN: Sloppy Floyd was just dominant in that whole thing. I don't remember any of

the other people. I guess I could pull it up if I thought about it. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: Now, when you say he was a mess, let’s elaborate.

BROWN: What do I mean? He was a contradiction. He would say all these crazy things

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

publicly about racial--he would give racial epithets and just sort of race bait. And

privately, he was a very nice man, and he would show his human, his humanity, his

human instincts, which I didn't find to be biased.

KUHN: In what kind of ways?

BROWN: Well, you know, he would talk about things that you would talk about. He

would talk about family, you know, things that would make you think that he was all

right, you know. That’s about as specific as I can be about that. But I liked him as a

person until this came down because we had been meeting in preparation for the

legislature.

KUHN: The freshmen.

BROWN: The freshmen.

KUHN: And he was one of the legislative leaders, wasn't he?

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: He wasn't speaker, but he was chairman of the Appropriations Committee.

BROWN: Appropriations, yes.

KUHN: Okay. There were what? Seven or eight in that first class?

BROWN: Nine.

KUHN: Nine.

BROWN: Was it nine? Eight. Eight.

KUHN: It was you and Julian. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Grace Hamilton. Go on with your point.

KUHN: No, keep on going. I want to get into the eight or the nine and, you know,

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

learning the ropes.

BROWN: All right. Grace Hamilton, J.C. Dougherty, William H. Alexander, J.D. Greer,

it looked like to me Mr. Sheets, Harold Sheets.

KUHN: Not Harold Sheets. Harold Sheets is somebody--Anyway--

BROWN: Anyway, there was a Sheets there. I don't know whether he was in that first

group or not, but that was me, Julian and-- How many of us were there?

KUHN: I have--eight.

BROWN: It was eight. Harold Sheets came later, I guess. E.J. Shepard. E.J. was not in

the first group. Oh, I know, John Hood.

KUHN: From?

BROWN: South side. John Hood. He's deceased now. He died young. John Hood.

KUHN: Maybe describe--I mean, you and Julian are by far the youngest.

BROWN: Yes, we were the youngest.

KUHN: Maybe describe others and sort of, you know, the differences and sort of what

kind of communications y'all had before, during.

BROWN: Well, let's take Bill Alexander for example. I knew Bill because he had come

in to work at the law firm of Hollowell, Ward, Moore and Alexander, so I knew him.

He's just a nice, mild-mannered lawyer-like, strict--He wasn't radical, like me. See,

Julian's not a radical. Julian wasn't a radical. He didn't show his radicalism as much

as I showed mine. So they didn’t know what to think of Julian. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: What do you mean by that statement?

BROWN: Well, I mean, nobody really tabbed him as a radical until after the Viet Nam

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

statement. But mine has always been consistent, prior to being in the legislature.

These are conditions that, and relationships you are saying. So I didn't like that. Bill

Alexander was not considered a radical. He was hardly considered black.

Mrs. Hamilton was a real phenomenon because it was obvious that she had

ties with the majority community somewhere down the line. I mean, real ties. It was

reported that her grandfather was the governor of the state of Georgia, something like

that. Governor Towns.

KUHN: Governor Towns, right.

BROWN: Something like that. But anyway, Grace did well for herself because she was

an Urban League director and her father was at Clark Atlanta University, and she was

just of the black aristocracy. But she was so smart! Yes.

KUHN: Let me back up a bit for a while because somewhere in there didn't you work

for the Urban League at some point?

BROWN: Yes. But not while Grace was there. Grace started it back in the '20s, 1929,

so Grace was an old lady. I worked at the Urban League in 1964. When the NAACP

told me I couldn't work for them, I had to get me a job. And then I went over there as

community services director at the Urban League.

KUHN: Was Thompson still there, Robert Thompson?

BROWN: No. Harold Arnold was the director at the time. Now, I could have became

director of the Atlanta Urban League when Arnold left, but they wanted me to resign Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library from the legislature, and I said, "No, I will not resign from the legislature."

KUHN: Similar to the NAACP not wanting you to--

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: So you were not around the Atlanta Urban League when there was the split

between the local and the national?

BROWN: No.

KUHN: You don't know too much about that. Okay.

BROWN: I saw it happening, but I wasn't--I mean, the national--Vernon [Jordan] caused

a lot of schism in the Urban League. People didn't want to follow his leadership. He

lost several of those entities.

KUHN: All right. So here's the new representatives. I first of all would be interested

in sort of knowing, you know, I mean, obviously it's not only you but it's the changes

in the Fulton County delegation from three representatives to however many.

BROWN: Twenty-one, or something like that.

KUHN: All right. So talk about the dynamics within Fulton County first before we

talk about--Sort of, learning the ropes, reaction among the legislators.

BROWN: Well, you had Charlotte Brown. Gee, I forgot who those other two were.

KUHN: Who had been the three.

BROWN: Who were the three.

KUHN: Senator Milliken.

BROWN: Yes, Milliken, but he was gone. Yes, he was the senator. But they all left real

quickly because they just couldn't stand the change. I mean, it was too much for Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library them.

KUHN: So they actually preferred it in the old days, when the Fulton County had only

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

three.

BROWN: Had three. Yes, it was more power for them. Here we're talking about a

county with nearly a million people in it with three representatives dealing with them

boys down there with five thousand people, who had one. The disproportion. You

know, it was out of whack, 99 to 1.

So coming in to that whole mix was a whole new dynamic. The leadership

sort of emerged out of the--Well, it came from the new group. Sidney Marcus and

Charlie Brown. That's who. Because Charlie was from that old south side little

clique, and they used to control the county, south boys. And somehow Charlie rose

up to be one of the leaders. I'm trying to see who was the first chairman. Well, I

wasn’t threatened by any of it. I worked with them all. And I was part of the clique

that wanted leadership of the group, so I had my way pretty much. I don't have a clear

thought on it today.

KUHN: Okay, okay. Any mentors to you as you are actually now their--I mean, did

you take a lesson from Leroy? Anybody sort of talked to you about sort of the way

the--

BROWN: It should go?

KUHN: Yes.

BROWN: I’ll be honest with you, no. Horace Ward was my mentor, period. Horace was

so subtle, you would never know unless you just felt what he was saying to you. And Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library that's how I got my inspiration, not from Leroy. I looked at Leroy, and I saw how he

maneuvered. I was not unaware of his movements. But I was very clear on what I

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

needed to do as a legislator. Me.

KUHN: Which was what?

BROWN: Which was to get in there, get to know the players, get to know the leadership,

get to know the issues, and set an agenda, and work it. And that's what I did. I mean,

I didn't sit around there and wait for nobody to tell me to what to introduce for

legislation. I knew when I got there that I was going to be focusing on number one,

the historical significance that blacks had played in the history of this state, which

meant education, trying to get the proper textbooks instituted in the system.

And number two, I knew that housing was a critical part of my life and the life

of the people whom I represented, because of the dilapidation, and I said, "There's got

to be a role for the state --." This was a time when states were just moving into that,

across the country. So one of the first things that I pulled up was the Georgia Housing

Finance Authority. It was called then Georgia Residential Finance Agency. And I

introduced that legislation. It took me eight years to get it passed. But now it's full-

fledging. Its first bond issue was $50 million to provide low-cost mortgages for low-

to medium-income families. That's my proudest legacy. But that's what I focused on.

Nobody had to tell me that.

Another area I focused on that I don't tell too many people about is automobile

inspections. I was the prime person on that, because that was a national--I was

reading national stuff and seeing what other states were doing. Auto inspection and Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library auto safety and all were critical issues at the time in the early-to-mid '60s, and I

brought that discussion to the table in Atlanta, and I was able to get my package

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

passed. Now, they've modified it over time. Matter of fact, they eliminated one part

of it, but if you go back and study the history, it was I who instituted the automobile

inspection sticker laws.

[END TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B]

BROWN: As relates to local legislation. Now see, these were global in the sense of the

state, and I could not be so myopic that I would focus only on Hunter Street or

Auburn Avenue. I mean, that just wasn’t where I was coming from. But I did take an

interest in the structures of government, Fulton County and the City of Atlanta, and

we had to pass enabling legislation to accommodate both of those entities.

Grace and I collaborated on the rewriting of the Charter for the City of Atlanta

to provide for those district elections that we talked about and to clearly delineate the

power of the vice mayor as opposed to president of the City Council. We did all that.

KUHN: This is--When is this?

BROWN: This is more like '71, '72.

KUHN: Yes, the Charter Revision Committee that she served on.

BROWN: Yes. She was the chairman. I was there with her. We were driving it. I mean,

a lot of it--Grace and I worked together on that very closely.

KUHN: Bonderant was on it and I can't remember-- Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: I was on the legislative side.

KUHN: Oh, the legislative side, okay.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: The city did appoint a committee to--

KUHN: And I think Grace was on that committee.

BROWN: Yes, she was the legislative liaison to that. But I was speaking of legislative.

So I was very proud of that contribution.

And then another thing I did in terms of structure of government was to

propose a consolidation of the city and Fulton County. I was, like, too soon on that.

But I put it out then. I had just come back from MIT, doing my urban studies, you

know, my highfalutin study and observation of consolidated governments around the

country, and I said, "This makes sense. Why don't we do this?" I came back home

and I was guest speaker at the Hungry Club, and I presented my plan. And Maynard

Jackson and all the would-be politicians at the time got so frustrated at me. Talking

about, "Ben, what are you going to do? Dilute the vote?" I said, "Man, by the time

we get to--Well, first, ain't gonna be no dilution because white folk don't live in

Fulton County any more." Even then. They didn't realize that the numbers were good

enough then. I'm talking about 1974. The numbers were good enough to elect a black

overlord. But they were scared.

I said, "You're going to keep on postponing. You are over taxing the people

you say you represent. You're making it convenient for the people you say you dislike

because they'll come in here and they do everything. They don't pay nothing for it.

But if you have one tax base, a consolidated tax base, the city and the county, you Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library would equalize the burden." That's what St. Paul-Minneapolis does. They have a

little tax system there that equalizes the burden among the counties and the cities and

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

everybody paid. But Maynard and them were just worried about being elected, so I

put it out there. I stuck by it. I didn't back up on it. I'm sorry we didn't adopt it. Now

everybody here is talking about we ought to consolidate government.

KUHN: It’s going to be harder to do now.

BROWN: It's harder to do now because--It may have been Maybe it won’t be harder to

do because the county--Everybody has accepted the fact that Fulton County is a black

county. It might not be, but-- The problem is you've got a black county government,

you've got a black city government, and when they get to fight there ain't gonna be no

coming together. That's right. You're right. It will be harder.

KUHN: Let's go back. The reaction from the white state reps to the--

BROWN: Consolidation plan?

KUHN: No, no, no. To y'all. Coming in. What was sort of the reaction, the etiquette?

BROWN: From the county or?

KUHN: No, no, no. From your, you know, the other representatives in the Georgia

General Assembly, rural as well as urban, outside of Atlanta as well as, you know,

local.

BROWN: Well, they were old timers. I mean, the boys were in there because that's what

they were supposed to do, for thirty or forty years.

KUHN: For instance?

BROWN: Oh, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: On the house side.

BROWN: On the house side, you had, ooh, Lane.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

KUHN: Lane. Okay.

BROWN: Lane. Just put that name down. I can't think of his first name.

KUHN: Not the guy from East Point. Dick Lane.

BROWN: No.

KUHN: I'll find that one out.

BROWN: Anyway, he represented Sloppy Floyd and that group. They represented the

old guard, who were suspicious. I mean they just couldn’t believe black folk were

there. Therefore, they took a-- Like on the private side of it, they were very nice,

Tommy Irvin and all them. Tommy was a young man, at the time. But Tommy--He's

a whole different category. But anyway--

[CROSS-TALK]

KUHN: Let’s do the different groups.

BROWN: Okay, now. Lane, ooh. The name just escaped me. There was whole group

of them. McCracken.

KUHN: McCracken. Roy McCracken.

BROWN: Roy McCracken.

KUHN: Is that right?

BROWN: Yes, Roy. He was in the Senate, wasn't he? Or the House? But anyway,--

KUHN: He'd been active in the Griffin administration.

BROWN: Oh, yes. They were all Griffin, [Eugene] Talmadge. They were all Talmadge. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library This crowd was basically the residue of the Talmadge, Eugene Talmadge.

KUHN: T.B. Williams still around, from northwest Georgia? Or Taxi Smith from

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

Albany? Okay. I was just trying to figure out who we're talking about.

BROWN: We're talking about--

KUHN: Dixon Oxford.

BROWN: We're talking about the mean boys from the old Eugene Talmadge, Peter Zack

Geer era. I'll tell you a guy in Milledgeville, Kidd.

KUHN: Culver.

BROWN: Culver Kidd. Culver was out of that group. He was a young guy in that

group. But he came down the line. All right, let's take them and put them aside a bit.

Then you come up with the George L. Smiths and the George T. Smiths, who were

smart enough to know that change was coming and going to be there, and they needed

to extend, so they made it very comfortable for us, for me, in particular. George and I

got to be very close--

KUHN: Which George?

BROWN: George T.

KUHN: Okay. Who was your first speaker.

BROWN: Yes. We got to be very close friends. And they knew that this was not going

to be a reversible trend. They were going to have to adjust. And you had people like

Dick Lambert, or Roy Lambert. G.D. Adams. G.D. was more like the old guard, but

this man Lee, Frank Lee, from East Point.

KUHN: Oh, Bill Lee. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: No, Frank.

KUHN: Frank Lee. Okay.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: He was a pilot. Jack Etheridge. Roy Lambert stands out in my mind. He was

a decent white man. That's how we looked at him then. He was a decent white man.

You held a conversation with him, and you knew he was honest and he wasn't scared

of you, and you weren't scared of him.

KUHN: Other folks, in contrast, were scared of you?

BROWN: Yes, they were scared. They didn't know what we were doing.

KUHN: How did it show itself?

BROWN: Well, they would be reluctant to talk. I don’t know how to quantitate that.

You know, you can feel it when people have apprehensions about you and what you

want to do. I mean, verbal, whatever. But you can also tell when a guy is accepting

you on par because the conversation flows, the energy flows. And I cannot put

language to that, no more than what I just said. But that's the way I felt.

KUHN: Right.

BROWN: Then there was another group of young white boys over there. Sidney

Marcus, Gerald Horton, Joel Felton. These were the children of the politicians of the

first group I told you about, the Feltons, the Wade Mitchell types. Wade wasn't over

there, but I'm trying to think--My crew.

KUHN: Where is like Bobby Rowan?

BROWN: Oh, Bobby Rowan. He was--Bobby Rowan was dangerous to me. He fit in

somewhere--Although he was young as hell, he fitted in the old group. He couldn't Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library tell me when-- he and Jimmy Bentley and that crowd--They could not--They misread

the winds. They switched around parties, and they lost out. They thought that's what

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

they were supposed to do. But they were all kids of the Talmadge era.

Bobby, as far as I’m concerned, was fitted in that group. I could not figure

Bobby out. Of course, his record went on to prove that, I think.

KUHN: How about Groover?

BROWN: Ooh! That's one of them guys from the first group. Yes! What's--

BROWN: Denmark Groover.

BROWN: Denmark! Whoo! Denmark, I thought, was a mean man. And he was in that

first group. He probably was as gentle as he could be. He was one of those people

who were afraid to open up and let it flow. I mean, he gave you stares and--I can't say

that he manifested cruelty toward me. It just wasn't the kind of free thing that I expect

when I'm engaged with humankind. I thought he was mean.

KUHN: Did you feel uncomfortable?

BROWN: I felt uncomfortable around him. Sloppy Floyd, no. Sloppy and I had a great

relationship [chuckling]. And then there was a guy there named Mac Barber. Now,

Mac was funny. He was deceiving. He was deceitful because you would think that

he was the old remnants of the Eugene Talmadge bigotry, but he was really nice. He

was one of the smartest politicians over there. He was good on every side, on every

side. And I liked Mac [chuckling]. I liked his agility. And then he would give you

real enthusiasm, and then he would go over there and give them real enthusiasm--I

mean, he was good. To be able to do that, I think is a skill. Some people said being Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library all things to all people. Okay. If you got that skill, you're good.

KUHN: But that's what he would do?

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: What about sort of younger guys who were coming up to the House at that

time, like Tom Murphy and George Busbee?

BROWN: I'm glad you're raising it because George Busbee was one of those Jack

Etheridge types. He's in that middle group. George and Joe Frank Harris.

Tom Murphy. I just didn't get a good feeling on Tom Murphy. And of course,

he didn't have a good one on me, either. Tom Murphy is the reason why I was clear

that I was leaving the legislature because when he came in, I was the senior member

and had more tenure on the Education Committee than anybody. I mean, the

committee was almost depleted. He kept me on the committee and brought in a

whole new committee and made somebody else chairman. And I said, "Well, I guess

this system ain't made for me." Not Tom Murphy's system.

And this was during the interim between the death of George L. and the

coming of Tom. Because I had secured George L. in his district. Coca-Cola asked me

to go in, go down there and keep him in office.

KUHN: Down to Swainsboro.

BROWN: Swainsboro, yes. I mean, they were about to pull a revolution on him and get

him out. He almost lost his election that last election he had, and I went down there at

the behest of some people who represented Coca-Cola. They said, "We need George

L., and you've got to go down there and help us save him." So I went. I did my part. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library And I was supposed to get a chair out of that. That would have been the first chair.

And then he died. And that was the end of my legislative career, right there in 1975,

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

basically.

KUHN: A bit before then, yes.

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: Well, tell me that story because it's an interesting story. You're saying that as

speaker he--What was his relationship to Coca-Cola?

BROWN: Well, I mean, as speaker, you know, shit. All that stuff that Coca-Cola has, all

their regulations and stuff. I don't know the specificity of it, but I know the interests

of Coca-Cola was thrown up in my face as to motivate me to go down there and save

George L. Smith. I didn't have any problem working with George L. Smith because

he was the Speaker of the House, and I was a member of the House, and I did want a

chair, so I know how to give and I know how to take.

KUHN: Who approached you?

BROWN: My doctor [chuckling], Alvin Davis. And I don't know how Alvin got the line

on it. I said, "Alvin, what you doin' hooked up with George L. Smith?" He said,

"Don't you worry about it. You just get your ass down there and make sure this man

stays." Because the guy who was running against him was not good. That wasn't to

say he wouldn't have been a contender for the speaker.

KUHN: Now, how did you know that Dr. Davis was hooked up with the Coca-Cola

interests?

BROWN: Well, that came out in the conversations. I mean, Sid Davis and those people Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library over there at Coca-Cola. They take care of their political work. And they obviously

had something-- I don't know the specificity of that was, but they had an interest in

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

keeping George L. Smith at the helm.

KUHN: So he could keep stuff stopped up in committee or whatever?

BROWN: Whatever. I don't know. I wouldn't even purport [sic] to guess. All I know is

that I thought I was very pleased that they thought I was important enough to make

that happen.

KUHN: Now, you came in before legislative independence of the governor, when the

governor still appointed the committees and the governor was much more powerful.

Talk about that.

BROWN: In the Senate. Now, which committee? The House committee?

KUHN: Didn't Carl still appoint the committees?

BROWN: Our committees?

KUHN: Yes.

BROWN: No, no, no.

KUHN: By that time it's the speaker?

BROWN: No, no. The speaker appointed the committees.

KUHN: All right, but let's talk about--

BROWN: I've never known the governor to appoint House committees.

KUHN: That was earlier.

BROWN: Was it?

KUHN: Yes. Let's talk about your relationship with both George T., who was your Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library first speaker, and then Carl, your first governor.

BROWN: Well, my relationship with Carl--Because, see, Carl was on his way out when I

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

was coming in, so I got to know him better when he was out of the governor's office

and was working on national Democratic Party stuff.

KUHN: He just had one more year.

BROWN: Yes, he had--Well, he was out by the time I got there. He was out. They swore

in, had Maddox’s inauguration, January '66.

KUHN: Actually, Maddox was '67.

BROWN: '67, I'm sorry.

KUHN: But he's on his way out.

BROWN: Yes, yes. December '66 Carl was out. But anyway, George T. was just a nice

old country boy, and I liked him. [chuckling] His wife played a very important part,

too, Eloise. He would always have her there. There was something about that that

was interesting. I guess it was their family thing. He was just like an uncle or

something. That’s the way I feel about George. And when he ran for lieutenant

governor, he asked me to help him, and I did, and we just got to be real close friends.

George L. Smith, speaker. We had our distance. But, see, George was in the

old group, so he--By that time Papa Denton was there and Albert Thompson, so he

opted out to relate to them. Because I was too young. George looked at me as a boy.

KUHN: George L.

BROWN: George T. did. As a kid that he just cuddled. George L. looked as me as a boy

trying to be a man; therefore we'll keep him at bay. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: Again, give a for instance.

BROWN: Well, how old was I when George L. came in? I went there at 25, so I was 26,

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

and I was very aggressive. You know, always in his face about something.

KUHN: I've heard it said that you, Julian and Bobby Hill were the three really who

came out of the movement background.

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: Is that accurate?

BROWN: It is correct.

KUHN: Okay. How would you describe the three of your styles vis-a-vis the other--

BROWN: Well, we were all different. We all had different styles. Julian had a no style.

I mean, Julian didn't do nothin' in the House, not that I know of. He sat right next to

me.

Bobby Hill was very active on the constitutional questions. He enjoyed

listening to himself on the floor. Now, he was flamboyant, and he was excellent, and

he was brilliant. He could get a point, and twist it--Them boys didn't know what he

was talking about. But some of us did. So he was a brilliant lawyer.

But Julian was scared. Julian got scared after that thing. So he sat quiet. He

was more active in the Senate, but he was very quiet in the House. Very quiet. But, I

would push him, and every time I did something I made sure his name was on it as a

co-sponsor. I mean, I just did it automatically. I didn't even ask [chuckling]. You

know, that's the kind of relationship-- And when they would be negotiating those

things, they would come around and ask--They knew that there were two votes there Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library together.

KUHN: Right. Okay. So when something was--

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Julian would break away sometimes, and let me know. We differed on a

couple of things, but basically those two votes went the same way all the time. And

many times Julian would be out of town and I would take care of his vote, and he

wouldn't be at his desk when we would need it [chuckling].

KUHN: Okay, the '65 Voting Rights Act. Let's talk about its impact in the state of

Georgia and your involvement in registering people across the state and your and

other efforts to register.

BROWN: The '65 Voting Rights Act was very critical to the movement. It was that next

phase, from the protest in the streets, the legislative mandate, which captured what we

were protesting about. I think that legislation enabled-- motivated people of my

generation to get more actively involved in politics. Somebody took time to teach a

lot of us how to register, how to target, how to get elected.

KUHN: Let's go through the process. Who is the "somebody" we're talking about?

BROWN: Well, the somebodies were the NAACP, the Urban League, even--You know,

you had voters leagues in most places. Southern Regional Council, Voter Education

Project. I'm giving them to you as time moved on. Operation Vote. You had all sorts

of organizations that popped up to interpret what the 1965 legislation meant.

To me, personally, it meant that we had a chance to get more involved and to

secure ourselves in positions of public trust. In terms of my initial election, it didn't

matter much whether I was-- Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library [CROSS-TALK]

KUHN: I noticed before. It was before it was implemented, and yours was more the

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

result of reapportionment than the court case.

BROWN: That's right.

KUHN: Voting Rights Act.

BROWN: Yes. It certainly stimulated more people wanting to run for office, at every

level: city, county, state. And the more success you had getting people registered, the

more candidates you had. And you look at Mississippi, which was a primary area.

Mississippi has more black elected officials than any state in the union. And that's

because they had a very active registration. They found out that they have the

numbers, and they only found out because they were registering fold, and they didn't

feel the fear of intimidation after the '65 Voting Rights Act.

KUHN: Let's talk about your own involvement. And your involvement sort of with

each step of the process, beginning with registration and then, you know, choosing

candidates, then running candidates, and then, you know, actual voting at the polls.

You know, sort of from--And as you talk about it, maybe you could talk about both

what you witnessed, the internal, external obstacles needed to be overcome to ensure

black participation in the process.

BROWN: Okay. I missed that.

KUHN: Okay, I'm sorry, too long. Let's go back to sort of your own effort at, you

know, outside of your own campaign, in terms of black participation in the political

process. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Oh, well, by the time I got all done on the circuit, I started getting invitations

to go places to talk, so I was speaking all over the country. One of the most exciting

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

speeches was to Wichita, Kansas, for the youth meeting of the NAACP. And their

focus was voter education, and I was the guest speaker, having been nominated to be

in the legislature. This is how I helped in voter registration, in stimulating more

political participation. Went to Wichita. Of course, that was my first time out in

Kansas.

Then I got invited to Houston, Texas, to speak at the inaugural--Well, kickoff

of a campaign for a young fellow who was running for the state legislation. "Living

proof. Here's Ben Brown, 25 years old." This guy was 26, 25. "If he can do it in

Georgia, y'all can do it in Houston." That was the message.

So it was that kind of thing where I found a role.

KUHN: How about within the state of Georgia, too?

BROWN: Oh, yes. Well, I would go out and speak to the different groups in Savannah

and little country towns, churches, men's day, and oh, I did that a lot. Matter of fact, I

don't know too many of the Georgia black politicians who did as much as I did in

terms of non-Atlanta activity. I did a lot of it.

KUHN: Again, there's so much attention on Atlanta. I'm always very interested in

what goes on outside of Atlanta.

BROWN: Oh, man, I wish you would go down there and find--You've got to talk to

Wesley Law. There's a guy down--Billy Hutchins in Macon.

KUHN: I think you mentioned him. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: I mentioned him, the funeral home director.

KUHN: Right.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: He and his wife, Betty. They would have a wealth of knowledge. But I used

to go to all those little towns. Albert Thompson down in Columbus. And I'm giving

you these big cities, but the Locust Groves, the Dublins, the Griffins, the Bondsville.

KUHN: Who was that guy in Griffin? Wasn't there somebody on--Touchstone?

BROWN: Yes, there's one family, Touchstones. The other family is--I guess Touchstone

is about the biggest one. Heard.

KUHN: Heard. H-e-a-r-d? Is that right?

BROWN: Or is it Head?

KUHN: I don't know.

BROWN: Head, Head, Head. H-e-a-d.

KUHN: Okay. How about what's his name? In Cartersville.

BROWN: Oh, my God.

KUHN: Robert Parks.

BROWN: Robert Parks. I didn't catch on to Robert until later. Herman Talmadge made

Robert Parks, and when I started spreading out across the state, everybody said,

"Well, you've got to--Do you know Robert Parks?" I finally got a chance to meet him

in late years. Is he still around?

KUHN: I think so.

BROWN: Wow.

KUHN: What was his role? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: He was Herman Talmadge's man. I mean, he was Herman Talmadge's black

guy in the state. I didn’t think Robert Parks would ever come to Atlanta because he

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

recognized that there was more black folk outside of Atlanta than there are in, and he

made those circuits. And I guess he presented the model that I followed, unknowing

what the model was.

KUHN: Okay. Now, when did Herman hook up with Parks?

BROWN: Oh, I don't know. But it must have been when he first went out there in the

'50s.

KUHN: Okay. So you think Herman was recruiting black voters --

BROWN: Oh, yes.

KUHN: -- even at the time --

BROWN: He was talking all that foolishness. Yes. And paying them well. Now, see,

when I started doing north Georgia, I paid homage to Mr. Parks but I didn't set there.

I went on to a guy named Neal, who was a funeral director up in Toccoa.

KUHN: Where there had been black voters. Stephens County, right?

BROWN: Yes. Oh, it's been a great little town.

KUHN: That's an interesting story, isn't it?

[END TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]

KUHN: Wasn't there a funeral director in Americus, too? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Mr. Barnon?

KUHN: Right.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Yes.

KUHN: And then who was Curtis Atkinson?

BROWN: Atkinson.

KUHN: Tell me his story.

BROWN: He was the successor after Robert Parks. Curtis comes from down that way, I

think.

KUHN: From?

BROWN: Bainbridge or something like that.

KUHN: Some south Georgia--

BROWN: But he was a good guy. He was the modern version of Parks.

KUHN: In that? Meaning what?

BROWN: In that he didn’t want to just do the groundwork, he wanted to be there out in

front, in the office. He was the guy who wore tie. And he worked on Talmadge’s

staff. He was the first guy who really Talmadge put out there and said, "This man is

on our staff." He didn't say, "This man is working for my campaign." But Curtis did

an excellent job for Herman. He represented well. But he was the first black

confidante that I knew about, who worked, who was shown. He was the showpiece.

But he worked. He was capable.

Robert Parks was capable, too, but his office was in Washington. But Curtis

did. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: What about Flanagan and the NAACP?

BROWN: Oh, that was a bad time. I don't know. Flanagan never got his foot together

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

on that. I never knew what Flanagan was doing at the NAACP when he was there. I

just never knew. Is he still around?

KUHN: He died.

BROWN: He died? I don't think he was aware of much of anything he was doing. I

mean, it just looked like a bungling kind of experience. I was on my way out when he

was doing his thing. I was on--

KUHN: To Washington.

BROWN: National, yes. But I just did not know. I'll be interested to know what others

say about him.

KUHN: In terms of statewide mobilization of black people in politics, what impact did

the Maynard Jackson challenge to Herman Talmadge in 1968 [have]?

BROWN: Well, it created a lot of believability. The impact it had was that my

organization was working with Maynard on that. I tried to run the state with

Maynard.

KUHN: Your organization was what?

BROWN: Wright, Jackson, Brown, Williams, Stephens and Bond. We were the PR

agency that was working with Maynard.

KUHN: Okay. Who was the Jackson, Williams, Stephens?

BROWN: Wright was Waymon Wright, who came here as a publicist for the Falcons or

the Braves, one of them. Jackson was Warren Jackson, who was a guy who wanted to Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library do some public relations in town. And I’ll tell you more about that. Wright.

Jackson. Brown was Ben Brown.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

KUHN: Stephens?

BROWN: Stephens. He was a PR guy who was working with WSB. And--

KUHN: Bond.

BROWN: Williams. Williams was Maynard's guy. Who had come down from Syracuse

or Buffalo, one of them godforsaken towns, to be with Maynard. And Julian Bond.

We got a PR firm, but everybody was trying to do it on their own, and I said, "Man,

why don't we get together and make this a first-class operation?" So we were finally

able to bring them together, and we rented space in the Equitable Building, downtown

Atlanta, 18th floor, 1969. Can you imagine? We thought we were hot shit. And we

were. We did Maynard's campaign that year, '68. This was--We had not formed

totally. I guess we had because the campaign was '69.

KUHN: '68.

BROWN: Was it '68?

KUHN: '68.

BROWN: Well, we were in business in '68. After that election, Herman Talmadge was

in our office that Saturday morning. Herman Talmadge was in our office. You were

talking about, what impact did it have? This son of a bitch was in our office, in

person, acknowledging the job that we had done and wanted to know how he could

help us down the road. And that happened.

Now, mind you, Julian was away. Julian stayed with the firm a month. That Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library was a very ugly situation. Julian stayed with the firm a month. He never told me all

the details. But I got enough to be disgusted with that. Somebody awarded--was

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

going to give a contract to the firm through him. He took the contract and went

somewhere else with it. That's all I'm going to say about that.

KUHN: Okay. Well, let's talk about the Jackson campaign as you accompanied the

Jackson campaign across the state of Georgia.

BROWN: Well, we had our own little private plane, and I took him to places I knew,

places I'd been. See, I was three years ahead of him out there, now, on the state.

KUHN: How had you gotten all the state contacts?

BROWN: Well, because I had been working with George T. Smith and that kind of

thing, NAACP, Georgia Democratic Party. See, I got real busy. By '68 I had been

appointed to the Charter Commission of the National Democratic Committee with

Jim Hunt, and Jay Rockefeller. Those are my peers in the political party. I brought

all that back home. Maynard knew that I knew where the people were. Black and

white.

KUHN: So your role in the Jackson campaign was what?

BROWN: I didn't have a title. I usually don't wear too many titles. I just coordinated

some appointments for him. Took him to places where I thought he needed to be.

KUHN: Again, I'm kind of interested in kind of what impact this first statewide

campaign against Herman Talmadge had throughout the state.

BROWN: Well, the fact that Maynard Jackson was running against a living legend

inspired a generation of people. It woke up some old people. Scared them to death. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library But it woke them up. Plus he got nearly 400,000 votes. He showed what the numbers

really are. And that was only 25-30% turnout. You know, if you could--and that's

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

impossible--but if you could get a maximum turnout, 95% turnout, you could do a lot

of things statewide. But that's what the election of Herman Talmadge did. It showed

what the potential is.

KUHN: And you said the next Saturday Herman was in your office.

BROWN: In our office on the 18th floor, at 100 Peachtree Street. We were shocked. It

was almost like-- unannounced. I don't know how he knew we were going to be there

that Saturday morning, but he was in that office. Maybe it was arranged, but I didn't

know about the arrangement.

KUHN: And there he was.

BROWN: And there he was. Oh, yes. That was the greatest recognition. All right,

black folk, y'all know y'all exist; we know you exist; now let's work out something.

That's what that was.

KUHN: Well, again, in your encounters with Herman over the years, how do you

describe him along those lines, in terms of being--

BROWN: Well, I think he grew up real fast. He grew up real fast as a result of that

election. So fast that he got frightened. His drinking problem became very acute. I'm

going to share this embarrassing situation for the history of this stuff, for the

significance of this oral history. When Jimmy Carter became president, Jimmy was a

little embarrassed by Herman Talmadge, but he was our senior senator, so on one of

the trips that I took on Air Force One, we came to Georgia [mumbling]. Herman came Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library with us. Herman had overindulged, and he overindulged so he staggered, and none of

his friends wanted to be close to him. So I sort of eased up to him. He caught ahold

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

of my shoulder, and I walked him off that plane. That was--I know, that had to be the

saddest day of his political career. He was still in politics. But I was the one that

reached my hand out and said, "C'mon, Senator, let's roll." And it hurt me. I'm sitting

up there with my senator, whom I had forgiven for all of the ills and sins of his mouth

because, he wasn't as bad as he talked. And here he was, just completely drunk. And

Jimmy and them didn’t look at it. I mean, oh, they were so embarrassed. But I

couldn't let the man be out there by himself. I mean, I don't know where his staff was.

Looked like, somebody would have been with him.

KUHN: I wanted to--You just talked about the Jackson challenge in '68. I want to go

to another event that I know that you and Julian split on. Some of it's public record;

some of it's not. The episode surrounding the Chicago Democratic Convention and

the Georgia challenge and the split within the Georgia delegation.

BROWN: Let's start with the Georgia challenge.

KUHN: Take us back to Macon or wherever the story begins.

BROWN: Well, it starts before Macon. Georgia Democratic Party Forum. That was an

organization that was set up as a counter-organization to Lester Maddox.

KUHN: When and by whom?

BROWN: This was--See, I also served on the Rules Commission--That was the first

commission--The Rules Commission of the Democratic National Committee. Where

we wrote the rules to include greater participation on the part of minorities and etc. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: That's a little bit later, though, right?

BROWN: No, that was '68. My--The Charter Commission was later. '68 was the Rules

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

Commission; it was the O'Hara Commission. And we wrote the rules. So I was all

fired up about reform in Georgia. Because we had just got through with the national

stuff, so--Came back,Kehrer set up the labor board, set up the Georgia Democratic

Party and I was quite instrumental in it. We said we're going to challenge the

selection process in Georgia. I called Julian. I said, "Julian, c'mon and help us out

with this thing." "Oh, Ben I ain’t got time. I don't want to do this." We kept on

planning. I kept on going. I called him the day before we went to Macon and I said,

"Julian, are you going to go with us?" "No."

By the time we got down there, here comes McCarthy and these buses and

Julian Bond. I could have shitted. I mean, it really made me so mad. I was so mad

with Julian. I said, "Now, what happened over 24 hours that caused him to do this?"

I don't want to think that he lied to me throughout that process. I just will never

accept that. I don't know what he told you, but I would never accept that.

KUHN: I don't know either.

BROWN: So--I'm going to ask him one day. "Julian, why did you do me like that?"

Alright, that wasn’t even half of it, so we’re going to have the convention anyway.

We had plenty of people. They had plenty. But we were surprised. They had more

people than we had.

Now, I had gotten John Conyers to come down and be the keynote speaker.

KUHN: Right. This was a rump-- Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: This was a rump convention, to elect delegates to Chicago to challenge Lester

Maddox delegates, which was hand picked. Okay? The McCarthy people scooped in

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

on it. We didn't look at them as adversaries. We looked at Maddox as adversaries.

So we had no idea we were getting something from the left. So they came down

there. We took over all of our congressional caucuses. They named their chairman.

Julian took over my, the 5th congressional district caucus. I said, ‘Why did he have to

do this?’ I mean, this don’t make no sense.” Anyway, he did that. They took over all

ten of them. And then tried to make me convention chairman. I refused. I could not.

I couldn't take it like that.

KUHN: Convention chairman?

BROWN: Of the whole convention.

KUHN: Okay. Of the rump convention.

BROWN: They wanted to make me permanent chairman of the convention. Which

would have been nice for somebody who is ego-ridden or -driven, but I was so

frustrated by the tactics that they had used--

KUHN: Who are active in the McCarthy movement--

BROWN: In Georgia? Well, nobody. They just came and got Julian and got the people.

I don't remember anybody in Georgia who was for McCarthy. I didn't even know

Julian was for McCarthy.

KUHN: But he had been connected somehow with the McCarthy campaign.

BROWN: Obviously. He came up to that rump convention as a McCarthy person. They

took over. And all of us, the Democratic Party Forum, left the convention. We went Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library upstairs.

KUHN: That includes Kehrer?

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Kehrer, everybody. We left the convention. And I left and came home

because I was sick. I mean, I was-- My friend had--He stuck me in the back, and I

said, "Damn, Julian, why did you do this?" I mean, it didn't make no sense to me. It

hurt. And I don't think I've ever told him how badly that hurt because it could have

worked out and he could have had everything he wanted. But I think he was used in

that situation. But anyway, they won.

And they made me co-chairman of the protest delegation to Chicago anyway,

in my absence. They put Julian and me on there. Because they knew how hard I

worked on this thing. I was going to have [chuckling] Julian come up on Saturday

and embarrass me. But anyway, I made up. I'm a forgiving guy.

Julian and I go to Chicago, to the Credentials Committee. We go up two

weeks before or a week or so before the convention started. And it looked like to me-

-I don't know where we stayed. We stayed at the Conrad Hilton. Somebody got

rooms for us. Some of them were talking about staying at the Y. I think some stories

are said--I didn't stay at the Y. Julian didn't stay at the Y. But the stories said that.

KUHN: You were--

BROWN: We were at the Conrad Hilton. That’s where I was. I had friends at the Edsel,

which was right across the street. But anyway, we made our presentations to the

committee. Who was chairman? Governor Hughes of New Jersey was chairman.

KUHN: Richard Hughes. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Richard Hughes. We made our presentation. We won the battle, a little bit.

We won 50% of the battle. Now, getting to that point of resolution, I was on the

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

phone with Ivan Allen constantly because he and Richard Hughes were friends. And I

was saying, "Mr. Mayor, I don't know if we can get--." He wanted all of the Lester

Maddox people out.

KUHN: Ivan did.

BROWN: Yes. And I said, "I don't think we're going to be able to do that. We're going

to have to compromise."

KUHN: Because Ivan had run against Lester twice.

BROWN: Yes. I said, "We're going to have to compromise this thing." I ended up being

a compromiser, 50-50, and then once we got that broken down, then it broke down

another way. There was a fight between our 50%. Lester had his 50%, 20 votes, and

we had 20. And then we broke ours down.

KUHN: Between McCarthy and Humphrey?

BROWN: To McCarthy and Humphrey. They were half votes, half votes here--and the

party people voted 20 votes. So it worked out to be a very interesting experience.

But I was right in the middle of it.

Ironically enough, I got to know Governor Hughes's son. We're friends today.

He was in New Jersey. I got to know him through business. And Governor Hughes

was one of my heroes.

KUHN: Now you said it was an interesting experience, I think you only told part of

that story. Let's tell more. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Well, I was still angry. [SOUND OF RINGING TELEPHONE] I got it.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

[TAPE INTERRUPTION]

KUHN: Okay. Back to Chicago. You were saying you were still a bit mad--

BROWN: I was still a bit mad because I was out there busting my balls trying to work this

thing out, day in and day out, working, calling into Atlanta, calling--.

KUHN: This was the basic challenge to the Maddox--

BROWN: Yes. This was all challenges. We were on the Cinderella Team in '68, and the

focus was on us, and for some reason I assumed the responsibility to work it out.

KUHN: That was your role. That’s what you’ve done.

BROWN: Yes, that was my role. And once we got it worked out, we got to the floor, and

Julian had started hooking up with these people from Wisconsin, Peterson and all

those boys. I was totally unaware of all of that stuff, the McCarthy stuff. And then

somebody over there in Wisconsin nominated Julian for vice president. Julian runs to

me and tells me, "Ben, I can't accept that. You tell 'em. You tell 'em." That’s just

what he said. I said, "Well--." I mean we were all shocked. I was. I don't know

whether Julian was shocked, but I couldn't believe that he was surprised by that. I

can't believe that he was surprised by that. But it appeared that he was. Why else

would he come to me and tell me to respond for him? Carl Albert was at the podium

and he said, "Would the gentleman from Georgia identify himself?" I never did. But

somehow we got through the parliamentary step there. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library KUHN: Which step are we talking about?

BROWN: To announce that Julian Bond was ineligible to be nominated for vice

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

president.

KUHN: Didn’t he decline on the floor? I remember seeing him on national television.

[CROSS-TALK]

BROWN: Julian did not decline on the floor. I was the speaker in response to the

nomination. Julian came over and asked me to tell them that he was ineligible

[chuckling].

KUHN: So you spoke on the floor.

BROWN: Go back and check the film out.

KUHN: I know for a fact--Well, I certainly remember--

BROWN: Julian might have said something later, but he came over there and told me to

tell the people.

KUHN: Maybe what you were saying was, you know, not what was on television and

what he said was.

BROWN: What he said was. Yes, maybe.

KUHN: Because I remember--I mean, I think I remember seeing him on television.

BROWN: I had on a green suit. He was standing right there next to me. But I did the

talking.

KUHN: Okay.

BROWN: You check that out to make sure. You can--But I know he came to me and

asked me to tell people that he was ineligible. And Carl Albert--I never will forget. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library "Will the speaker from Georgia identify himself?" Never did. That's the way that

went down. Now, Julian spoke. It was later.

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

KUHN: Okay.

BROWN: So that was funny.

KUHN: Where--I mean--What was your encounters with the Maddox bunch?

BROWN: Oh, we almost had fights. I can't remember. There were pushes among us.

Like Denmark Groover, since you mentioned that, was in that Maddox delegation.

There were threats. I can't say where they came from, but it was a very ugly scene.

Now, you have to keep in mind that the press was working around the floor, talking

about there's a riot going on outside. So all this was going on. It was pandemonium

on the floor. Someone, Ken Bode--I never will forget Ken. Ken came over to our

delegation. Ken is now a big correspondent on one of these television shows. He was

with New Republic at the time.

KUHN: How do you spell his name?

BROWN: B-o-d-e. Ken Bode. Ken--It looked like to me it could have been Sam

Donaldson. I don't know. They were all young folk, around there, trying to get us to

say inflammatory things. And then they were talking about the riot outside and what's

going to happen to Mayor Daley. Oh, it got really wild on that floor. Matter of fact, I

must say I got a little frightened because of all the stuff that was going on.

KUHN: And that was also--Right after that, I guess because of your credentials

challenge, that the five guys bolted from the Democratic Party to the Georgia

Republican Party, right. Jack Ray, Crawford Pilcher, Phil Campbell. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Jimmy Bentley.

KUHN: Jimmy Bentley and somebody else. Weren't there, like, four or five of them?

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Oh, they were big shots. And they all lost later. Next question. Never heard

another word from them.

KUHN: I mean, when you described the tension between you and the Maddox

delegation, maybe you could elaborate a bit more on that. Or the process before the

committee.

BROWN: Well, I don't know what else to say about that, Cliff, other than I had so many

different emotional strains going. One between me and Julian, other between me and

the Lester Maddox, the McCarthy and McGovern, I mean Humphrey. And just trying

to enjoy Chicago. All of that was such a--

KUHN: And the riot outside.

BROWN: And the riot outside. I didn't even know about the riot until those newspaper

people came in there and told us.

KUHN: Okay. Going through that. And then after that, how did you feel at the time?

BROWN: Well, I felt accomplished. I felt that we had accomplished something.

Number one, by getting a chance to vote. It was the first time I had voted at a

convention. I had half a vote, and my half a vote went for Humphrey, but that I felt

very proud about. Although we didn't have a whole victory, we had a half a victory.

It was either that or more chaos, so I thought we did the Party some good.

KUHN: Then how did this affect both in the short term and the long term your

relationship with Julian? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: Well, I didn't know it affected anything from my perspective. I don't know

how he felt. Because Julian don't talk about things like that. I mean, you don't know

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

how Julian is feeling. I mean, he's not an expressive person in that regard, to friends.

Now, he might be different to his wife or somebody. I don't know about--and his

children. But I didn't let it bother me. I just let it go. I said,”Well, that's just the way

that is. I mean, the guy is someone whom I greatly love. I love him. And we've

known each other for so long. It's been 40 years now.

KUHN: But you were talking at the moment, though, of your emotional--

BROWN: Well, I was mad at the time. I was just angry. But then I calmed down, and I

said, "Now, that's just the way he's reacting. One day he'll tell me what he wants to

tell me about how he acted and why he did what he did." I never will understand how

and why he did that McCarthy thing. The way he did it. I mean, all he had to do was

tell me. It wasn't like I was sitting around not communicating with him. I was

constantly trying to get him involved in the reform movement, and it wasn't as much

about a candidate as it was about a process of assuring that he and I could have a

chance to go to a convention, or anybody else that looked like us. It wasn't about that

at all. And that's what really freaked me out. I just said, "What?"

KUHN: Who else was involved in the reform movement?

BROWN: Well, Al Kehrer, Betty Kehrer, Jack Francis Turner, that whole group. I'm

still trying to think of these young lawyers. John Blackman. John might not have

been in. Travis Stewart. That's who I was trying to--

KUHN: Travis Stewart, okay. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library BROWN: That was the Lester man. Travis was quietly involved because he was a big

Humphrey man at that time. He had gone up to Humphrey's staff, working for one of

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

the big pharmaceuticals. But that was his--That's a guy who transformed from Lester

Maddox's executive secretary to Hubert Humphrey's.

KUHN: Well, let's--I mean, this is actually a good segue back to the events of '66, and

maybe we'll stop there. But let's go back. I mean, Kehrer, if I'm not mistaken, was

also involved in the write-in Georgia campaign?

BROWN: Ellis Arnall?

KUHN: Yes. Let's go back to '66 and the Maddox race. It involved Arnall in the

primary, then the write-ins, Jimmy Carter running for governor, and a bunch of

others, as I recall, too.

BROWN: Well, it was basically Callaway, Arnall and Maddox.

KUHN: After the primary, right. Arnall had lost to Maddox, I guess, in the primary

and then--Describe that whole write-in Arnall, write-in Georgia effort. The choices

one way or the other. I gather--I read somewhere that you voted for Ellis.

BROWN: Yes, I believe so.

KUHN: Let's talk about--

BROWN: Well, Ellis Arnall was a hero to all of us. I mean, he was definitely out of

time, out of step, and I don't know why he waited so late to come back. I mean, he

was governor when he was 31 years old. He then came back 35 years later. But the

timing was off. But I was an Ellis Arnall supporter. I didn't think it would come off.

Just the dynamics, just write-ins don’t do that. But I don't know what else to say Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library about that, really, Cliff. I guess I'm just a little exhausted.

KUHN: Do you want to break for today?

GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996

BROWN: Yes. Let's--I'm getting--

KUHN: A little bit tired. Sure.

END OF INTERVIEW