Georgia Government Documentation Project Series E: Black Involvement in Politics Interview with Benjamin Brown October 31, 1996 Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library DISCLAIMER: Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well- informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account. It reflects personal opinion offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable. 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Reproduction of any item must contain the complete citation to the original. CITATION: Brown, Benjamin, Interviewed by Clifford Kuhn, 31 October 1996, P1996-01, Series E. Black Involvement in Politics, Georgia Government Documentation Project, Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library, Atlanta. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996 GEORGIA GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTATION PROJECT GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY SERIES E: BLACK INVOLVEMENT IN POLITICS NARRATOR: BENJAMIN BROWN INTERVIEWED BY: CLIFF KUHN LOCATION: ATLANTA, GEORGIA DATE: OCTOBER 31, 1996 [TAPE 1, SIDE 1] KUHN: This is an interview with Ben Brown, former state representative in Georgia by Cliff Kuhn, Georgia Government Documentation Project, October 31st, 1996, at Ben Brown's apartment in Atlanta, Georgia. You know, since we've just talked about Paschal's, maybe we could talk about Paschal's about a kind of a meeting--the role of Paschal's in those years, say '60 to '64, '65 and beyond. BROWN: Well, Paschal's was a center for convening. Everybody--ministers, politicians, businessmen, whites, blacks, businesses. It was a center. You would hear people talk about it being the mecca for black Americans. Things emanated from Paschal's that were significant to life for black Americans. Dr. King would meet there, Andrew Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Young would come through there. Of course, Andrew was with Dr. King at the time. I mean, he was a protégé. But the local political gestation started right there. You'd 1 GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996 get in there, you'd talk about who was going to run for office. I mean, you actually name--There would be a group of people, John Cox, Jesse Hill would stop through there sometimes, Q.V. Williamson. Those people would sit around and they would discuss who ought to be running, who shouldn't be running, and next thing you knew, they were running. I mean, there was no formality to much of that. But it was just a place where people came and shared ideas, and many times ended up, it resulted into action. KUHN: You know, before we move into the state legislature, I was also interested in that period, '60 to '65, maybe describe the Atlanta Negro Voters League at that point, compared to when you were a kid; and then also the All Citizen's Registration Committee, too. BROWN: Oh, yes. The All Citizen's Registration Committee. It looked like to me John Calhoun headed that up. The All Citizen's Registration Committee. That crossed political lines. It's hard for me to separate out how I saw those two entities as a kid and as an adult because it was one continuum. I felt like I just grew up in it. The Negro Voters League was a bipartisan organization. I mean, the Republicans and the Democrats together voted on candidates, endorsed candidates, and affected elections in this town, for years. They would endorse these people and send out the ballots in the mail. I mean, that's how sophisticated they were. They sent those ballots out in the mail. You got in the mail a letter, a card saying Vote for, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Recommended by the Atlanta Negro Voters League. And it was signed by the powers that be, A.T. Walden, [Reverend] W.M. Jackson. 2 GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996 KUHN: Who's W.M. Jackson? BROWN: He was a big Republican, Reverend Jackson. You don't hear his name much, but he was very, very strong in Atlanta in that Atlanta Negro Voters League. KUHN: Now, by the '60s Walden had kind of passed its his heyday, certainly. BROWN: Oh, yes. No question. KUHN: Who else were the new people coming up into the Voter's League by the time, certainly, by Horace's campaign, by your campaign, and so forth? BROWN: Well, Jesse Hill, Hollowell -- KUHN: Johnson? Was Leroy involved or not? BROWN: Leroy Johnson. But, see, Leroy was a politician himself so his role was suspect. He was there, but he kind of played it a little lower. But the League never recaptured the glory of the '50s. I mean, although it made a transition when Jesse and them took over, it began to demise because, you know, people didn't know Jesse and them. They looked at them as upstarts who was going to try to do something. KUHN: It just occurred to me. We haven't really talked about the mayoral races, either, with Hartsfield or particularly the one with Ivan Allen and Mugqsy Smith. BROWN: [chuckling] Well, the Ivan Allen race, the first one, I was out of town. I was at law school. But the black community supported him very strongly. And then--the one following that, Mugqsy Smith was running. And I supported Mugsy Smith. The young folk supported Mugqsy Smith. He was a strange old man, probably no Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library different from all the rest of them of that era, but he gave an image of progress, of progression, a progressive image. I don't know why I was supportive. It looked to me 3 GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996 Julian Bond was supporting him, too, yes. KUHN: When you say he's a strange old man, you mean what? BROWN: Well, I mean, it was--I guess we were just excited being conscious of the political process and having the wherewithal to make our own choice about who we ought to support, and Mugqsy was running against Ivan, wasn't he? Yes. And I think Ivan had gotten a scar by putting up the Peyton wall, and that was the thing that caused some of the younger folk to say, "Well, who is this man, wanting to segregate us out." They thought he was bad. Ivan went on and won the election, but Mugqsy gave him a good run for it because Mugsy got most of the black votes. KUHN: Mugsy had been in the state legislature and had opposed the closing of the schools, too. BROWN: Yes, he had demonstrated a fairness that most of the white politicians had not demonstrated back in that day. KUHN: He's interesting to me because he's not really of the power structure. BROWN: He was from the proletariat. Well, he was not of the blue-blood family. And that was another thing we could identify with. He was folksy, and he made it--you know, he made his mark that way. KUHN: Now, did I read somewhere that you had gone to the Democratic National Convention in Atlantic City? BROWN: Yes. I was a page. 1964. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library [CROSS-TALK] BROWN: That was my first convention. That was the first time we had an integrated 4 GGDP, Benjamin Brown, Date: 10/31/1996 delegation. Leroy and Johnny Anderson, I think and Mr. Walden were, I think, the delegates to that convention. I went as a page. At that time, I was vice president of the Young Democrats of Georgia, the first black to serve in that capacity. It was so exciting going up to Atlantic City. I remember driving up with my friend I told you about, Buddy Hilliard Lee, who was very instrumental in my election, a personal friend. KUHN: Is that Hilliard? BROWN: Hilliard, Hilliard. And to get there and find out that my law professor, Pat Harris, was one of the principal speakers, I was very proud of that. Because I'd never been to a national convention before, that I, you know, Studied them and all that stuff. So that was very exciting. And I went to every convention thereafter until 1988. KUHN: Here. Right. BROWN: Well, no, I was here. The one in New York in '92. '92. I went to every convention except '92. I served on the site selection committee for the Atlanta Convention.