Interview with Lester Maddox June 16, 1976

Home , Lester Maddox, Marvin Griffin, Peter Zack Geer

Georgia Government Documentation Project

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CITATION:

Maddox, Lester, Interviewed by Robert Dubay, 16 June 1976, P1976-05, Series F. Marvin Griffin, Georgia Government Documentation Project, Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library, Atlanta.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

GEORGIA GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTATION PROJECT

GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY

SERIES F: Marvin Griffin

NARRATOR: FORMER GOVERNOR LESTER MADDOX

INTERVIEWER: Robert DuBay

INTERVIEW DATES: June 16, 1976

Q: -- if not, you refer to Marvin very often. And I know it

was your book and about your life and career, but why was

that not so?

A: Well, you looked over it, you’ll see a lot of people not

referred to in the book. It was generally in reference to

people that I was engaged in in the campaigns or in

government. And to a pretty regular emphatic extent,

strong extent. And I wasn’t involved. That way we’ll

former governor Marvin Griffin, just like I wasn’t with a

lot of other people, and their names were not included in

there.

CopyrightQ: What Special about Collections -- and Archives, Gerogia State University Library A: I don’t believe Talmadge was in there.

Q: Right.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

A: And I don’t believe Walter George was in there. So.

(laughs)

Q: Well, how would you describe your relationship and your

acquaintances with Marvin? And I know he has supported you

in certain elections and so forth.

A: I think they’re excellent, and I believe they’ve always

been. I believe they’re good. I think Marvin Griffin is

one of the most sprung-tight individuals that we’ve had on

the Georgia scene maybe in the history of the state. He

was willing to say what he thought he ought to say and do

what he thought he ought to do, and I think serving as

governor and before and after, proven to be one of the most

colorful people, figures we’ve ever known in our state.

And everybody knew of Marvin Griffin. The people who

support him and the people who did not support him, they

all knew of Marvin Griffin, and they all, I believe, formed

some kind of opinions on Marvin Griffin. And I’m glad that

Marvin Griffin got to be governor of our state, glad that I

got to meet and know him.

Q: You mentioned in your book --

A: I supported him in both of his campaigns, the one when he

won, and the one when he lost. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Q: You mentioned in your book you used to cater sometimes to

the governor’s mansion. What was that like? How does one

feel when they catered? (inaudible) beds or something?

A: Only time I ever catered in the governor’s mansion was when

Marvin Griffin was governor. And I had calls from the

mansion, and I talked with Mrs. Griffin in reference to the

catering, and even met with her once or twice at the

mansion, in reference to the catering, he put on a big

function for his World War II military buddies, and they

had quite a thing going there.

Q: I think you said you --

A: They would ask me for a price, and I would give them a

price, and they’d give me the orders. And of course I

always had reasonable prices just like I do today. And I

thought it was great that little old Lester Maddox, running

a small restaurant out on Hemphill Avenue at the time,

would get an opportunity to go to the governor’s mansion,

and especially to serve the governor and his family and

friends. You know?

Q: What did you serve?

A: Fried chicken.

Q: Anything else? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library A: Bread, potatoes, and the coleslaw. Ice Tea.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Q: You said they gave you a $50 tip once, or something, and it

was the only profit you made. (laughs) Is that right?

A: Yes, sir. I suppose maybe I gave them as good a price as I

could and still maybe not lose on it in order to try to get

the business and get to say I had served the governor or

had served at the governor’s mansion. And it happened that

I did not make anything on the service. And when I got a

$50 tip from the governor himself, well, that was the

profit, and it was so important to me that I didn’t forget

it, and I never will, that I got $50 from the governor of

Georgia.

Q: Did he support you during any of your efforts to -- when

you ran for mayor of Atlanta?

A: No, sir.

Q: Not at all?

A: I don’t recall.

Q: How about in the election of ’62? Both of you lost. Why?

A: Well, I was running against the establishment, and I had

never been in a statewide campaign. And I don’t know why

Governor Griffin lost, unless maybe the image that had been

projected about his previous administrations and the things

that had occurred during that time. I think that probably Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library had more to do with it than anything else. And then the

major media was against it. And of course all the liberals

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

and the radicals, they were against it. And that’s a

pretty powerful group.

Q: The same people who were against him were against you,

weren’t they?

A: Generally speaking. But you put them all together, and

that’s a big, powerful group and what you’d call the

political establishment. They supported young Carl

Sanders.

(break in audio)

Q: -- decent career.

A: Huh? I thought it was remarkable that a boy from Hemphill

Avenue, a fellow from Hemphill Avenue in Atlanta, part of

the Atlanta -- native Atlantan -- the only native Atlantan

ever elected governor, the only one ever elected lieutenant

governor, I thought it was remarkable that I would get in a

statewide campaign against people like Peyton Hawes and

Peter Zack Geer and the other various ones that were in

there at the time and that I would beat them all in the

primary except Peter Zack Geer. And I think the difference

was that Peter Zack Geer lined up with Carl Sanders, and I

didn’t.

Q: They weren’t too compatible, ideologically speaking. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library A: No, but it got to be a strictly political thing in a

primary runoff, and Peter Zack made his arrangements with

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Carl Sanders, and I was certainly an outsider, unknown to

most politicians at the capitol, and I don’t suppose I knew

five of them myself at the state capitol. I doubt

seriously if I knew five people in 1962 at the Georgia

state capitol. I did know Peter Zack Geer and I knew

Marvin Griffin and Ernest Vandiver. And I didn’t get to

know Carl Sanders until the governor’s race in ’66. And he

stated to me -- no, it was in ’62 when I met him -- he

stated to me at Jekyll Island that he keeps hearing more

and more about a Sanders and Maddox win. And I responded

back to him that I hear a whole lot also about Griffin and

Maddox. (laughs)

Q: You and Marvin didn’t consult during the campaign?

A: No, sir, not about political activities.

Q: Why is that, typically in Georgia, each person tends to his

own garden, they don’t team up?

A: I don’t know whether that’s true always or not.

Q: It generally is.

A: I was still an outsider, politically speaking, during that

race. And I think maybe that’s more the cause for it than

anything else. But I attended, even during that race, I

attended Marvin Griffin rallies in places like Augusta; Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library Cartersville; and down in Lawrence County; Dublin, Georgia;

and Americus, Georgia. And I attended the Sanders meeting

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

over in Statesboro, Virginia and I. She’s here now. And

we were to fly over there with somebody in the plane that

afternoon, and we missed the airplane, so we flew over

there in my Mercury station wagon. And I didn’t get in

town to get into the meeting. George Wallace was there,

and Governor Griffin was there. So I just worked out in

front of the stadium there in Americus, Georgia, passing

out literature and so forth. I attended both the Carl

Sanders opening and the Marvin Griffin opening on their

opening days; they happened to have them both at the same

time.

Q: Why is it that Marvin, for example, and yourself, and

several other Georgia politicians in recent years

traditionally, throughout their campaign, campaigned

against the big cities and against the big-city newspapers

in particular, and certainly the newspapers [supported?]

employed that --

A: I never campaigned against big cities. I have campaigned

against the political establishment. A lot of it’s

dishonest and biased and unfair and prejudiced. They’re

human beings. And you’ve got good and bad blacks and good

and white whites -- good and bad whites, I mean -- good and Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library bad Democrats, good and bad Republicans, and you got good

and bad people in the media. (laughs) You’ve got them

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

everywhere, good and bad ones. But the media, the liberal

media, calls this being unjust and unfair, and through

human instinct with one another, get their own side across.

Oftentimes they can see no good in a person who they don’t

support.

Q: Why do you suppose that is, especially in Georgia?

A: And no bad in a person they do support. And we’ve seen a

lot of examples this day in the presidential race. We’re

seeing -- if you speak an unfavorable truth about a

candidate that is liked, then there’s a lot of -- you can

make an enemy out of a person, or there’s a lot of

objections raised. Now, if you speak an unfavorable

untruth about a candidate that an individual doesn’t like,

then he’s your buddy, and I suppose it’s the same way in

the news media. Its unfair, though. It would be great if

some way or another, media could be fair and objective.

But again, human beings, I don’t know whether it’s ever

possible it’ll ever occur.

Q: Do you suppose that the race issue is what hurt a large

number of politicians in the South? I’ve noticed,

especially in Marvin’s case, and to some extent your own,

that if you can wipe away the dialogue and the diatribe Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library that goes along, what the newspapers say, etc., that once

these administrations occurred and you look back on it,

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

there are an awful lot of progressive things that happened

that are tangible and are very clear. Why do you suppose

the predominance of race keeps popping up even though it’s

no longer a factor? [Cross-talk]

A: Well, I think again that some of the political

establishment and the liberal media breed this kind of

thinking in order to mislead and misinform the electorate

and to play their own sides. I think sometimes they become

almost obsessed with it.

Q: Well, your own administration, for example, you had a

number of things -- prison reform, continued upward

movement of education and university systems and so forth.

These are very progressive kinds of things. And yet we

talk to some of the people in the press, and all they can

remember is race and silly kinds of things, you know, that

happened. You get votes, you get attention. And they

concentrate on that and don’t dwell on the substance of the

issue.

A: Well, I believe that, you know, there’s some good and bad

in all people, but a lot of people who try to form public

opinion and write their own views and feelings and

expressions and analysis rather than the facts are just Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library unable to see any good in it like I say in the person that

they oppose.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Q: (inaudible).

A: And if -- regardless of how much good he does. It never

gets into their thinking. Speaking of education, we

accomplished more in higher education in the Maddox four

years, percentage-wise, as far as the budget’s concerned,

than any other state in the United States. We’ve got 50

states, and Georgia led the field for four years. Isn’t

that something?

Q: Yeah, I’m aware of that. I’ve been --

A: And secondary, elementary and secondary education. There

hasn’t been anything before or since that equaled it.

Q: Marvin did real well --

A: And then penal reform. And penal reform. Nothing could

ever compare with it. Had never been any clean-up in the

penal system in this state. And so far as employment was

concerned, you take the -- Carl Sanders had put two people,

two black people, on the Selective Service boards. No one

else has ever put a one. I put on 38 within six months.

And it was all around like that. The open type government.

And industrial growth. And if you’ll listen to the people

who put up the media, now, they projected that the world

would end if I got elected. There’d be rioting, burning, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library schools closing, crime would take over, and all those

things.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Q: Still there, right?

A: If I got elected. And everything went right the opposite

of what they had forecast. But they never did admit it.

Q: You were in favor during your lieutenant governorship for

an income tax -- or from a sales tax increase?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And Governor Carter was not. And let me see, did you meet

with him and a committee on Sunday evening at the

governor’s mansion during the time that was being debated?

A: When he was trying to raise taxes I met with him.

Q: I just wanted to verify something M.E. Thompson told me.

He said that he and Carl, right prior to that, had offered

his advice to Mr. Carter and that Carter had indicated that

he was going to meet with you and a committee on Sunday at

the governor’s mansion and he intended to support the

increase in the sales tax. And the next day, he didn’t.

Sometime in the next hour or two or whenever, he changed

his mind. M.E.[Thompson] contended he lied to him.

A: He does that every day. The more he does it, the more

votes he gets. (laughter)

Q: Yeah, I can understand that.

A: My proposal was a half percent of the -- 1% sales tax going Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library to the local government, cities and counties, and a half

percent of it (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). But it

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

automatically rolled back of ad valorem taxes is to try to

cut down is follow an increase in ad valorem taxes. And

half of it was going there. The other half -- some 60% of

the other half would have gone into education, 40% in to

the General [Fund].

Q: How did you use the GBI?

A: I didn’t use it.

Q: Not at all?

A: On occasion we’d get some request, you know, for some

special investigations if we thought -- we felt like they

ought to get into --

Q: Where did the requests come from?

A: Well, sometimes it come from a prosecuting official, but

generally it would come from some private people.

Q: Did the --

A: It’s just like one senator wanted his -- in his district,

one of his counties, he wanted a revenue department, our

department unit, tax unit to a greater place, probably one

up close to (inaudible). But the Revenue Department knew

that a lot of people in the same county were I forget it

was the same name. And so they offered it to time to go on

in there and hit this place, but going to hit all these Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library others too. And the senator that wanted that one

particular one hit, when he found out he was going to hit

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

the others, they didn’t want any of them hit. Didn’t want

that -- when we found out it was mad with some woman there,

(inaudible).

Q: Was there --

A: (inaudible) that one. So we got that request. A lot of

times you get it from a senator or a representative or some

county official, but primarily citizens themselves, about

maybe a murder that hasn’t been solved, they think people

laying down on the job, or about illegal alcohol activities

in an area.

Q: Gambling, that kind of thing?

A: Yes, the citizens themselves.

Q: I just wondered, because the files that I have, it’s very

apparent that it was used for other purposes in terms of

spying on people, that kind of thing, you know,

organizations, snapping photographs, during your -- at

least one administration. I just wondered if that was kind

of constant.

A: Not that I know of. We --

Q: Who does the GBI take its orders from? The governor

directly, or through what agency or individiual?

A: I don’t -- I wouldn’t think it actually takes orders from Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library anyone. I think it would be influenced -- that the

governor’s office would have an effect upon it. If I would

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

have had the head of the GBI. Of course, at that time, the

GBI worked under the colonel of Public Safety. Today it’s

a separate unit out from under the colonel of Public

Safety. And these orders are supposed to come directly

from the colonel. You had your patrol commander and the

law -- the traffic enforcement, and then you had your GBI,

you had another commander.

Q: Let me ask this. Are there any particular incidents that

stand out in your mind during Marvin’s administration?

Anything that happened or personalities, humorous kinds of

things or what have you?

A: Just knowing that he was over there ready to [crow?] if

some [crowing?] needed to be done, you know.

Q: What do you think his greatest strength was?

A: And then that -- I think his strength was in his having the

courage to say what ought to be said. And I admire anyone

that fights back at the powers that be. And Marvin Griffin

had to beat’em to be governor. And he never did become

their boy.

Q: Carl Sanders --

A: Their instrument.

Q: -- contended that one of the major reasons why he won in Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library ’62 was because of his effective use of the mass media, in

particular TV. In view of that, and I think there is a

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

good bit of substance to that issue, do you think, or would

you evaluate yourself and Marvin kind of simultaneously as

sort of the last of a breed of politician? By that I mean

people who are excellent on a stump, you know, working one-

to-one in a crowd, that kind of thing, as opposed to the

image of television.

A: I don’t think so, because I think Jimmy Carter is a -- even

though he’s my opposite. Politically, philosophically

speaking. I think that Carter -- well, without that, and

his hand-to-hand and in the communities, like you’re

talking about, and then supporters working this way, he

would not be in a position he is today. So I don’t think

it’s...

Q: What I’m talking about, though --

A: -- the last one.

Q: -- with certain administrations, such as your own or

Marvin’s and others, you get a very -- you get a good bit

of real fiber there, you know, a good bit of substance.

Yet in the case of Carter, what’s really amazing me is that

there isn’t a whole lot. Most of it -- I think one of my

friends put it -- is fluff. There’s nothing there.

There’s nothing to reorganization. There’s nothing to Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library zero-based budget. There’s nothing to reform. There’s two

no-growth years in the university system during his

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

administration. Atlanta becomes the number-one murder

capital in America, on and on and on. Interstate 75 is not

complete. There’s very little substance there. But yet

he’s very pleasing on the tube, you know, smiling at the

(inaudible).

A: Well, you mentioned Carl Sanders and his use of the media.

But I think far greater than -- so far as his final victory

was concerned, I think far greater than his use of the

media was the media’s use of Carl Sanders. Because of all

the constant, continuous favorable support from the news

stories --

Q: Did you know --

A: -- Carl Sanders, all are favorable. There’s nothing

unfavorable. I don’t ever recall seeing anything

unfavorable. And nothing favorable about Marvin Griffin,

and everything unfavorable. I think that has more to do

with it than whatever he spent on television and radio

himself.

Q: How about --

A: People themselves, so far as the situation now with Jimmy

Carter speaking of reorganization, and if he tells the

people that he’s going to cut down to so many agencies, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library departments. He didn’t do away with a one in Georgia; they

just integrated into --

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

Q: Something else.

A: -- a massive umbrella organization. They’re still all

there. Didn’t eliminate no jobs, just created more. And

he tells the people he saved $50 million the first year.

Actually, the first year under reorganization, the budget

jumped $343 million, which was more than the three previous

combined years. He said he cut administrative costs 50%.

No governor’s ever cut administrative costs even 10%.

Q: Why do you suppose people believe that?

A: And people believe it.

Q: Why? Because of the press?

A: No governor -- not just in Georgia -- no other governor

anywhere in this country has cut administrative costs 50%.

And the facts are that under his administration -- when he

left office, there were more than three times as many

people making above $20,000 than all other governors in the

history of the state, and when he gained office. When he

left office, there were more than three times as many

people making $20,000 and above annually than when he

gained office, which is to say he increased it more than

three times than all the rest of the history of the state.

Now, on the $343 jump and increase, and he tells people he Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library saved $50 million. And that $343 million is more than the

combined increases for three years prior to that time.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

People just don’t seem to care. This bothers me more than

misleading, deceiving, dishonest politicians, or even

corrupt public officials.

Q: How do you get people to care?

A: I don’t know. I wish I knew. I’m -- this concerns me more

than any other one single thing on the political scene.

Q: What about polls? Did you use polls in any of your

campaigns?

A: I don’t recall. Do you mean hire somebody to take a poll?

Q: Right.

A: No, sir.

Q: The reason why I asked, because Sanders did in ’62, and he

didn’t believe them, and yet CBS, polling a week or ten

days before the elections were actually held, were down

here filming him, maybe because they supported him or

thought he was going to win, because the polls all

indicated that he was going to win, but he wasn’t sure, he

told me, until that night, you know, until it actually came

in. And I think he’s probably telling the truth. Well, I

don’t have much else. You’ve given me some more

information.

A: Well, I’m glad -- Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library (break in audio)

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

A: I talked with him, at Channel 11, the night of the

election, and I thought for sure -- either the night of the

election or night before -- I thought for sure he was going

to win, that late. Even though closing the gate that I had

heard of otherwise. But Marvin Griffin didn’t think he was

going to win that night. I think he had given up.

Evidently he had a poll, or he had read someone else’s,

because he was -- it was down that night.

Q: I think he got tired.

A: I think it was the night before, not the day of the

election but the night before. But I told him, I said,

“Well, I’m going to win, and you’re going to win too.” He

said, “I wish I could feel that way.” So he must have had

something on the inside. (phone rings) It kind of got me

down a little bit after talking with him, because he

evidently knew something I didn’t know.

Q: Well, your loss was a lot closer than his was. It was

pretty overwhelming (inaudible).

A: I lost 190,000 votes.

Q: Was that (inaudible) 122?

A: Not that many, but I mean, yeah, black votes, I lost

190,000. I won the white votes. I lost because of the Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library black. You know, that’s another crazy thing -- and I told

it in my book -- that I put more blacks in prominent

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

positions than all the governors in the history of the

state. And I told department heads, “Don’t you hire anyone

that’s not qualified. And even if they’re qualified, don’t

you hire them unless you have a job.” And that was

contrary to -- quite the opposite of what department heads

had always been told. And I said, “If I got a friend come

to you for a job, and he’s qualified and you have a job,

and he’s the best qualified, you hire him. But if he comes

to you and you don’t have a job -- or if you’ve got a job

and he’s not the best qualified, still don’t hire him.”

And I said, “I don’t care whether they be black or white or

Republicans or Democrats.” And so that’s the way I worked

for those four years in that position. And through these

efforts or through this open-door policy, open governor’s

office, open employment, we did put more blacks in

positions than all governors combined. And they came to

all the candidates this time, and their demand was that we

restructure the merit system in order to give blacks a

priority. Well, I recognize that blacks had been cheated

and discriminated against, and whites have too in many

instances. I can remember when blacks had to come to your

back door with their hat in their hand. And I’m glad we Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library don’t have to have anybody do those type things anymore.

And so I went all out, not because people were black,

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

because they were white, but it didn’t make any difference

to me because they were all Georgians. And they wanted to

restructure the merit system, and I says -- so they could

favor one group. And I refused. Georgia agreed to do so.

I said, “I’m going to continue to hire everybody we can

hire -- your people, white people -- who are best

qualified.”

Q: Who gave you the advice?

A: Nobody gave me that advice?

Q: Who did you lean on for support --

A: The black leaders -- the black leaders came to me. You

know --

Q: King?

A: -- we had a meeting. Probably a dozen or more of them.

And I said, “I’ll be honest with you, open with you. And

here’s what we’re doing already, and I promise you we will

continue to see that nobody’s cheated within my ability to

prevent it. But I’m not going to hire people who are not

qualified for jobs that we haven’t got.”

Q: Sort of like the airport situation?

A: I said, “I do that in my business every now and then, but

it’s by mistake, it’s not on purpose.” (laughter) And I Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Gerogia State University Library said -- well, to have done that, I would have either had to

commit myself to these people that I was going to do that.

GGDP, Lester Maddox, Date: 6/16/1976

I didn’t have to be sitting there lying to them. Or if I

did that, then I’d have to be cheating good people, black

people and white people that was the taxpayers, so the ones

that were qualified. So I refused to do it. It cost me

190,000 votes. But I’d still rather be lost, even though

my campaign debt today is even greater than my gross salary

per year. I’d still rather have lost and still told them

the truth is my own feelings, or won and either cheated a

lot of other people or lied to those people.

Q: But basically I think --

END OF FILE