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6 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72 THE AN INTERVIEW WITH DOROTHY & RICHARD HEALEY

Dorothy Healey and Richard Healey visited Australia in June to represent the at the 26th Congress of the Communist Party of Australia. Up to 1973, Dorothy Healey, now in her sixties, was a leading member of the Commun ist Party of the USA. She had been a member for 45 years and for 25 years was Southern California organiser and one of the party’s national leaders. She was one of the party’s best known orators and popular figures. In 1973 she resigned after a long period as a dissident within the party. She later joined the New American Movement. (NAM). When they visited Australia in June, her son Richard, 36, was National Secretary of NAM. Brian Aarons interviewed them for A LR. HEALEY INTERVIEW 7

Starting from today's reality, what are some being nominated by the Republicans, is very possible political developments in the US? great. RH: The US working class has not been in Getting back to the Democrats, this partial action in any mass way for years and years, demolition of labor’s ability to control the in some ways not since World War II, maybe Democratic Party was reflected very sharply even the 30s. But the working class’s in labor’s inability to get through Congress standard of living has been static for several last year the Labor Law Reform, a very years in the unorganised sectors — 80 per modest attempt to improve the ability of cent of the class. In fact, real income has unions to represent workers, to get contracts declined steadily if only slightly over the last signed. Labor expected to win on it, but lost. 10 years. There is also a variety of social Big business came out squarely against it. pressures on the class, all in the general area Business sectors that labor thought would of what we might call social disintegration, come over to its side came out against Labor leading to an even greater atomisation of an Law Reform. One such very important group already atomised class. was the Business Round Table, which is the There is also a two-sided political pressure key executives of the 150 biggest businesses on the class. On the one hand, there is a in the US, and is probably the clearest certain disintegration or at least decay of expression of interests. labor’s ability to organise within the In that struggle labor had absolutely no Democratic Party. On the other, there is also idea of how to go to its rank and file to try to a much increased attempt by big business to fight for the Labor Law Reform. For many dominate the Democratic Party. years tbey had totally put all their efforts Four years ago there was a law passed into lobbying in Washington so that when which allowed organisations to create what that wasn’t sufficient, they only began to they called “ political action committees” look for grassroots support among their own (PACs) and big business has taken rank and file at the very end of the campaign, advantage of this much more than anyone far too late to have any effect. else. Through the PACs they have channelled literally millions of millions of At the same time, partly as a consequence dollars into the two parties, but they have of this, certain officials began to channelled over 50 per cent of it into the make statements which we have’t heard for a Democratic Party. They have realised that long time.For instance, one said big business the Republican Party is less and less able to has declared class warfare on us. And the top represent their interests because of its officials of the AFL-CIO are feeling a incredible minority status in the United squeeze from below, some restlessness from States and hence are wanting to control the below, and pressure from above, both Democratic Party more directly than they economic and political. Business attacks on have done before. unionism and business attacks on labor’s ability to deal in the Democratic Party Why is the Republican Party such a successfully broke certain kinds of interests. permanent minority? That is, labor is being squeezed out of its role RH: Firstly, it has been seen as the party of as a successful junior partner to “ corporate business and big business and the working liberalism” in governing the . class has been pretty clear that its immediate Very hesitantly, very tentatively, certain interests are not served by that party, except sectors of the labor movement began to for presidential elections in which the respond. Around Labor Law Reform they Republicans can represent themselves as started to go to rank and file to see if they more universal. Secondly, to a larger extent could do anything. It was unsuccessful. Also than the Democratic Party, the Republican unions like the United Auto Workers made Party is controlled by its activists, who are an alliance with the National Organisation very very conservative, very far right. Now, of Women: NOW would try to do some that means it is very hard for liberal lobbying around Labor Law Reform and in Republicans to have much influence within return labor lobbied for the Equal Rights the party and it has been pulled recently to Amendment. For the first time in years labor the right. The probability of a Ronald made an alliance with a non-labor group to Reagan being elected in 1980, or at least trade off those kind of issues. 8 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72 Out of that experience and out of the announce on day one they are going and on succession of economic and political defeats, day two they shut down. And for the first two coalitions have formed which indicate a time the labor movement has said it has certain potential within the class to change some right to question capital’s power of course. The first was the Citizens-Labor investment, the most crucial aspect of Energy Coalition (CLEC) formed by William capitalist control. Winpisinger of the International * industrial causes of cancer, both in the Association of Machinists. This coalition workplace and in the community. This may has been very important in trying to bring be one of the most important issues in the 80s together community groups and trade in the US because so many workers are unionB around attacking utility rates and furious about various carcinogenic lack of safety in nuclear plants. They are not problems. anti-nuke but they are pro-solar. In all this, the problem is not so much that The potentially more significant coalition, US workers greatly believe in the free formed on October 17, 1978 in Detroit, now enterprise system as such. What they do called Alliance, comprises believe in, still even in 1979 to some extent, is about 120 organisations: 40 trade unions, the possibility of upward mobility. But even and about 80 social groups ranging from the this belief is being eroded by the fact that National Organisation of Women to there are no longer jobs in the middle classes, National Association for the Advancement in the middle strata, for working class of Colored People to consumer groups, the children. most important environmental groups and even two socialist groups, Democratic The greater problem is that our working Socialist Organising Committee and has not participated in any kind of American Movement. organisation for years. Even the 20 per cent in trade unions does not participate in any So far the has two organised fashion in their own unions. So major points on its agenda. One is to try to they do not know how to organise, therefore democratise the Democratic Party. It has don’t believe there is really any way to said that Jimmy Carter has totally violated change the status quo. the Democratic Party’s 1976 platform, showing that the party has no control over Hence you can pile crisis upon crisis upon its own officials. their backs and it’s not clear they’ll react in any progressive way, that they’ll respond, The second is to work on some of the major for example, to the Progressive Alliance. The issues of this period that no-one has yet Progressive Alliance could call local worked on. They’ve picked out three: meetings to try to activise people but who * the question of the federal budget and knows if anyone will show up. Not because putting more money into domestic issues. people aren’t angry, they are. But firstly they They are the only, important, major group are not sure who the right target for their that has really challenged Carter on his anger is — should it be mothers, their increase in the military budget and his corporations, their foreman, or the decrease in social spending. (And they’ve Russians? mostly dealt in domestic aspects; they’ve Because this is a working class that shied away from foreign policy.) doesn’t have any deeply seated instinct * the departure of US capital from the against capital as a whole. It does have United States in the form of plant instincts against its own employer but not shutdowns, plant removal, runaway shops. against the capitalist system, it doesn’t think There is an attempt to pass a law, now in those terms. So we have to do a very basic introduced into both the Illinois and Ohio job of even trying to get people to participate legislatures, that would force big business to in this Progressive Alliance, and to redevelop give at least two years’ warning of their in the working class some basic class intention and also to pay reparations to consciousness. workers and the community. The right wing has a much easier job of This two-year warning enables you to mobilising people because it does it around organise against it. At present they very elementary, gut-level issues of HEALEY INTERVIEW 9 scapegoating people, of saying “ Look, your movement, and the ability of cults to gain target is such and such...” An example is the numbers when the left can’t. white backlash against “affirmative So these crises on the working class are action” , which means that the black and producing a break-up of the prevailing latino minorities and women have special ideological consensus — what Gramsd access to jobs, to better training, to would call an organic crisis — but it’s a very upgrading and won't necessarily be fired on prolonged one. The left presently has neither the basis of first come, first go. This principle the organisation nor the ideological was first undermined in a case concerning capability of projecting an alternative to admission to schools. A white man applying that. to go to a medical school was not admitted and blacks who got lower scores on some Prom the other side, the crisis has led to an tests were admitted. He successfully attempt at a new reconstruction of that challenged the provisions and the Supreme hegemony around a far right alternative. Court upheld it, eroding the ability of blacks That’s what the Right to Life movement or women or latinos to get into the schools. represents, that’s what “law and order" represents, that’s what Brian Webber The Webber case now before the Supreme represents: a restructuring of corporate Court is much more significant because it liberalism to a frankly much more regressive deals with employment. Brian Webber, a corporate rule. At present, we can only look worker at the Kaiser aluminum plant, got towards the Progressive Alliance and the passed over for promotion and some blacks CLAC as a counter attack. The only got it instead. If the Supreme Court upholds organised forces are in the major trade his challenge to that it could undermine unions and if they don’t respond then we’re almost all the gains that blacks have made in in big trouble. What’s hopeful is that there the last few years. are some positive responses. It’s much easier to rally white workers around that than around upholding Such as? affirmative action or the aims of the RH: The coalitions I mentioned, Barry Progressive Alliance. And white workers are Commoner’s present attempt to form a new still the bulk of the working class. political party called the Citizens Party, The most pronounced rightwing which bases itself on a real working dass program on inflation, unemployment, the mobilisation now is around the Right to Life movement which has managed to defeat questions of minorities and women, on abortion, and very much on energy. some of the best senators and politicians we had last year. Even more striking was their There is a great contradiction on abortion: ability to get onto the ballot in New York Every opinion poll shows that increasing State. They formed a party, were able to get numbers of believe in the right of the signatures necessary and got 500,000 for women to have abortions. But the right’s their major candidate, which gives them ability to get activists on this is phenomena permanent ballot status solely on the issue o f and the liberal forces, in particular the Right to Life. The Right to Life is being used Democratic Party, is not based on activists. by far-right forces to try to build an entire, The Democratic Party is simply an electoral organised network of rightwing forces for the machine. It doesn’t really have members in first time. There are some attempts to split the Australian or European sense. that because there are a . lot of Right to T.ifo forces who are decent catholics but who How does it work then? respond on this one issue. It is not just the RH: It operates between elections with a Catholic church — the Protestant number of functionaries who are paid by the evangelical churches are growing very party because of their fund-raising abilities. rapidly, gaining members, and forming It has around those elected officials a very what amounts to a fourth national television small number of activists, but in almost no network which has in most communities 16- city or state do we find Democratic Party hour a day programming of religious and clubs. At election time they will then pick conservative programs and has enormous people — depending on the election, maybe viewership. All this is reflected in the youth lots of people. 10 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72

In lots of sta e run as Democrats This was with direct reference, for who are also members of the Communist example, to the question of oil and raw Party, socialist groups or even rightwing materials, generally raw materials. There parties. Essentially anyone can contest it. are signs that this approach is being You just have to get a certain number of accepted by large parts of the ruling class. I signatures on a petition and you-then canrun think it’s reflected in the attack on major in any to be the candidate unions such as the UAW, exemplified by the for that office. For e x a mp 1 e, attack on Labor Law Reform and also by the Congressmember Dellons from Oakland, way General Motors -moved some of its New Berkeley is also a member of the plants'to- the south and did everything Democratic Socialist Organising possible to prevent the UAW from being in Committee. He is elected as a Democrat by those plants.' that congressional district but he speaks as a This goes hand in hand with an increasing socialist, he opposes almost everything drive to restore the draft, to get a sufficient about the Democratic Party, he attacks it, he number of white men in the army so that an says he’s.a socialist. invasion of parts of Africa or the Middle East Who can vote in the primaries? becomes a credible threat, which it isn’t with an army which is 38 per cent black and RH: At most places,' you just registe increasing; There is an increasing anti­ yourself and then on primary' day you say which ballot you would like, the Democratic Sovietism and concerted attack on SALT II, showing a new militarist tendency within or Republican. In some' states, like the top circles of American business. California, you actually have to say ahead of time which one you are. That’s to try to There are still elements of big business prevent Republicans from crossing over and which don’t agree with that, for example, voting for the Democrat they think would be those which back Teddy Kennedy. They still the weakest candidate. But in lots of states think that reforms and liberalism you can do that and so you get some crazy is the way to go, that there is sufficient give results. In the US, in a hotly contested in the system, both economically and election, you get typically a 60 per cent socially, to give the working class social turnout of registered voters, who may only be reforms that would quell the problems. It’s 50 per cent of all the people who can actually not clear how they would solve the problems vote if they register. So we have very low of profitability and of control over foreign turnouts. In a union election it’s even lower. resources — these are a huge question mark You may have 10 per cent or less of the for that sector of capital. membership showing up for a union election. You may have 50 per cent showing up for a Turning to wider questions: where are the US strike vote. working class and people at ideologically and What is the program of the US ruling class for why? the worldwide and national Crisis? DH: I would Bay certainly our working RH: A new tendency within the ruling class, more than other working classes in class is exemplified by a special, issue of capitalist countries, accepts as a natural law Businessweek, which is our leading the right of to exist and to exploit. magazine for the upper circles of the It’s a very militant class and has been bourgeoisie. In February 1979, it had a historically, but even in the 1930s it was Only special issue called “The Decline of the approaching a developed class American Empire?” with a picture , of the consciousness. So it was not an enormous with a tear rolling down her achievement of capitalist ideology, from the face. A more or less direct quote from it said: late forties on, to even reconquer those sectors of the class that had been developed We have to be clear that the US has had an in the class struggles of the thirties and empire since the end of World Warllbutthat forties and had an advanced consciousness, we are in 'the process of losing it. History and to almost eliminate that consciousness teaches us that an empire can be maintained with the exception of a few unions. only by direct military or economic force and we feel that that is the direction we have to I would say that the two most important go.... changes were the expulsion of the left trade HEALEY INTERVIEW 11 unions from the CIO (Congress of Industrial York City and New York State. That’s the Organisations) in 1948 and 1949, and then in largest of the state federa tions and is a power 1955 the merger between the AFT, (American base. He ousted a much more progressive Federation o f I>abor) and the CIO. person about five years ago—he is a member There were great illusions, great o f the Democratic Socialist organising expectations that the industrial sector of the committee. labor movement (mass production But there is one other teachers’ group, industries) would have an enormous effect on called the National Education Association, the craft sector (e.g. building trades) which is actually larger than the AFT. It’s a represented by the AFL. This was not true. respectable association, not a union and On the contrary, a labor movement that was that was its appeal for many years. to the right of the Democratic Party in But with the attack on public employees foreign policy, became the dominant over the last decade, it’s become expression. progressively more union-like, has called Is there a trend, as in Australia, for white- strikes, and now advertises itself as being collar unions to move into the AFL-CIO? more militant and more ready and able to conduct strikes than the AFT. RH: Well, white-collar organising has come relatively recently to the United States. There have been discussions of merger It’s something that’s really taken off since between the two teachers unions and in WW2 but even more in the sixties. One of the California they have merged. largest unions now in the AFL-CIO is the One of the primary differences between American Federation of State, and Australia and the US is that many white- Municipal Employees (AFSCME), which collar clerical workers are not organised, now has well over a million members, such as banking, insurance, and the mass primarily government employees that are clerical areas — primarily women who have also going into other kinds of private entered the labor force in the last few employment. There is a second union that decades. They are not unionised and no one has a large number, the Service Employees has managed to organise them yet, though International Union (SEIU) and the attempts are going on. American Federation of Government DH: The only really significant growth in Employees (AFGE). All three of those are union membership has come through members of the AFL-CIO — and each has government employees being organised. The "blue-collar” members. For example, total labor movement today represents only AFSCME covers sanitation workers as well 22 per cent at most of the US workforce of 93 as social service workers. million. The fourth important union is the American Federation of Teachers (AFT) Why is there resistance among the clerical which has hundreds of thousands of workers to being organised? members. It is a member of AFL-ClO. It was RH: Organising workers is very different at one point one of our best unions in terms of in the US. Here you have these government good positions on social issues. It’s awards. In the US you have to go through a increasingly militant — for the first time very complicated process of getting teachers are going to jail around job actions, certification from one-third of the workers, both for job quality and wages.' then they go to a government board and ask Unfortunately AFT has been taken over by for elections to be held. To just get a an extremely right-wing leader who has a representative may take up to a year or more very tight grip on the union. He is in the in which time the employers have every right mould of George Meaney, the. AFL-CIO to do all sorts of nasty things to the workers . leader, and is one of the many contenders to It’s a very big organisational task, the union be the AFL-CIO heir apparent. movement has been relatively slow to approach clerical workers, and they have How did he become the teachers union always been contemptuous of women leader? workers. RH: He controlled thte New York teafeher Correspondingly women workers have not the United Federation of Teacher? in New regarded them Alves as being permanent' 12 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72 workers. Why should they pay union dues? they had to have their cost of living What would they get out of it? The usual kind adjustment back in. of resistances which I think you may have some of too. What are the issues that might motivate US workers back to an interest in sociatism? And when unions tried to organise clerical workers, they tended to use people who come DH: One big issue for morthem workers is straight out of the thirties. You might have “runaway shops” — industries which close 30 per cent black and latino women, and 60 or down their operations in the north of the US, 70 per cent white women, all relatively either to go to the south of the US, which is young, and a handful of men, and unions not organised, or to set up assembly plants send in men aged 50 or 60 who have never elsewhere, for instance, just across the organised women in their lives. They worry border in Mexico. just about wages instead of talking about This means the total closure of industries child care, working conditions, dignity. The in localities that have historically had steel, real possible breakthrough is coming not rubber and other basic industries. from our big unions, but from groups in several cities called Working Women, Another major issue, increasingly Women Employed, etc. These are women important, is the pressures of technological who have not been part of traditional unions change, where industry contracts and but have been trying to organise women in workers become redundant. these clerical areas. They are much more On the economic front, inflation is a major sensitive to the particular needs and problem. The Carter administration’s demands of women but, so far, not even they wage/price control is simply nonsense. Wage have had overwhelming success. rises are supposed to be limited to seven per In , for example, Women cent but most prices in significant areas of Employed has 600 or 700 women but not as life are totally unchecked. In the last year part of the union. Women are very reluctant most important victories in California, for to join unions, they are very afraid of strikes, instance, have been around rent control and and it’s going to be a very long-term process in reaction to the property tax rebates that to organise areas like banking, and were given to landlords. Then there’s the fear insurance. that is present in communities, mainly black and latino, because of uncontrolled police What happens to workers who aren't assaults on people. In my city, for instance!, organised into unions? there have been some 50 people murdered by police in the last year. This is not political, DH : They benefit from what the organised but killing for the sake of it — and it’s workers get. increasing. Really, the police are an RH: Organised labor has kept up with occupying army inside the ghetto and the inflation relatively well and the unorganised barrio. sector, which is the mass of workers, has So there’s no lack of issues. fallen behind. So when we say that American workers’ real wages have stagnated now for But the long-range objective is to develop a 12 years, you really have to look at each systematic and coherent response to the total sector. The UAW and the Teamsters have decline of life in the US. We need the ability to done better than inflation. Other workers join together the disparate issues in the have not. country into a programmatic approach that unites the potential allies into a cohesive DH: Some have what is called an escalator striking force on every level of the society. clause that provides for an automatic increase every year. Will extending democracy, in the workplace and throughout society, become an issue for RH: It depends on the union. Some have people? cost of living adjustments, but, for example, the UAW gave one up in a contract six years DH: Oh yes. It’s still a minor issue in the ago because they thought inflation was sense of its articulation or the support for it, going to be beaten. So at the last contract but there is no question that it will become negotiation the membership stressed that increasingly important. It will be both a HEALEY INTERVIEW 13 question of and union when there is a conflict between jobs and democracy — democracy within the labor environmental considerations I identify movement — that will go almost hand in myself with the jobs. hand, if it is to be effective. But the environmentalists are What has been the social effect of the energy increasingly aware that they cannot crisis in the US? disregard the desperate feeling of workers for DH: Remarkably it has led to an enormous security and that they have to find some way swing of opinion in favor of social ownership to include that question in their thrust of the oil companies. Poll after poll shows towards an unpolluted and clean that people feel the oil corporations are environment. And there are some few responsible for the crisis, totally reject the unions, most notably the International propaganda as to why there’s a shortage in Association of Machinists — similar to your the US and are demanding public ownership. Metal Workers Union and one of the major There is also recognition of the need for state US unions — which are becoming aware of counterparts of the oil companies as a way of wider social issues. It covers many defence checking the books of the oil corporations. industries and is discussing a program that The federal government has absolutely no there must be an alternative to the defence way of knowing the truth about profits, the industries, which are capital-intensive degree of shortages, or the actual state of the anyway and don’t really provide jobs to any oil industry. Only the oil industry has those large extent and which produce non-useful figures and none of the government agencies products. Their leader William Winpisinger have them, so this adds to the feeling for has also helped initiate a national movement public ownership in order to determine the of labor and environmentalists that NAM is also a part of. accuracy of the charges. So concern with energy issues has been one Could you list the different main of the most important upsurges in the last organisations on the US left? year. The Three Mile Island nuclear accident DH: The largest is the Communist Party added to it enormously. Based on this, people with approximately 7,000 members. The like Barry Commoner are now initiating a Socialist Workers Party (Trotskyists) and movement calling for a new party in the US their youth group, the YSA, has a total on the grounds that the two existing parties membership of 1,850. This makes them third do not really provide for any response or behind the Democratic Socialist Organising input from their constituents. They hope to Committee but this is not an organised get this off the ground by the 1980 elections numeric force. NAM is fourth with about 900. and to get ten per cent of the vote and show a Then there are innumerable new communist credible role in public life. I doubt their parties in the US. The Communist Labor ability to do that because of state electoral Party, the CPML, the Revolutionary laws. To qualify for a presidential election Communist Party, the Revolutionary you first have to go through 50 state Workers Headquarters. These have small legislatures, and it’s no easy matter. memberships — 500, 300, 700. But in a period of great mass upsurge it’s What is the Democratic Socialist organising easier to get a response for a new party. committee? To what extent are American workers developing an environmental consciousness? RH: It’s socialists within the Democratic Party, but not quite so simple as that. In 1972 DH: Many workers simply say “ Yes, we when they formed, they said that their will die of asbestos poisoning in X years, but strategic goal was creating a left wing within what alternative do we have? It’s our job.” the Democratic Party, a progressive and There is a great gap between the labor socialist wing. But increasingly within the movement and the environmentalists last year or two, we’ve been very pleased to because of that. Barry Commoner is one of see that they’ve started looking at the the very few who is sensitive to that problem environmental movement, the women’s and attempts to meet it head on. He spoke at movement, and they have a Hispanic an AFL-CIO Central Labor Council meeting commission which started working against in Los Angeles and he started by saying: the blockading of , so they are 14 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72 gradually diversifying. They are part of the Could you say something about the evolution Second International and have 3500 of the US Communist Party? members. They are not really cohesive, nor activists. D H : There was one brief period from 1956 to about 1958 when overwhelmingly the D H : But they do have some of the more majority position in the CP would have been important labor figures in the US and black approximately that of your party now: an leaders such as Congressman Dellons, who insistence on independence internationally is probably one of the Congress members and a much greater sensitivity to new trends most militant, most socially conscious, and within the US. most responsive to issues in the country. He is the vice-chair of the Democratic Socialist The factors contributing to its lack of Organisation. success were firstly that those who wanted a new direction were united on what they Speaking about the Trotskyists, the SWP, didn’t want but not on what they did. it really amazes me how they never seem to Secondly, a number of leading comrades in a learn from history. They are regarded by all sense had one foot out of the party already sectors of the movements as a very and you cannot win a fight like that. manipulative organisation, always with a private agenda which they seek to impose But what really defeated us was that the upon mass forces. That’s true of the women’s so-called centre forces around Dennis united movement and it’s true now of the nuclear with the ultra-left forces around Foster, movement. They have recently carried although only momentarily because they through what I gather their Australian saw us as the main threat due to our counterparts are also trying to do, insistence on independence from the USSR. “industrialise” by sending members into The most important question really — industry. though I can’t really list them in priority, They have the most simplistic definitions was that the party’s position in regard to the of political reality. They are a bit like the was becoming even more Socialist Labor Party, which has exactly the subservient than in the 1930s, with far less same policy now that it had in 1890. justification. It had a momentary influence and growth But domestically the problem was equally in the anti-war movement, which they split as great: not only was the party oblivious to to set up there own sector, and they had a all the social upsurges of the 1960s but in limited but nonetheless significant growth many cases it took positions of outright among students. But it amazes me that what condemnation. As an example, in the they had they have simply dribbled away, upsurge of the black movement the two most leaving little impact on their organisation, notable names were probably and policy, or influence. Martin Luther King. But the Daily World in But weren't they more open to the new its front-page stories castigated Malcolm X movements — of women, blacks and so on — constantly for adventurism and leftism, than the CP? totally unaware and insensitive to what was D H : They were, but in a very opportunist happening in that sector of black society fashion and therefore they got very little out called the “street people” : youth, those not of it. For instance, for a while when the gay yet in industry, etc. movement was at its height, they were very Then, concerning the youth movement, pronounced on that question. But, in each there was an almost total absence from SDS case, because they do it in such a (Students for a Democratic Society) and from manipulative way, they accumulate no real all youth campus upsurge. The party made base from their support for such movements as its main question the building of a And they are as bureaucratic an communist youth organisation. Only in organisation as the Communist Party. For Boston and in southern California were there example, in the YSA in Berkeley their any young communists who were members leadership was challenged so they simply of SDS. This occasioned great fights. flew in people from around the country, outvoted the branch and the dissidents, and In the labor movement the party’s position took back control. was very conservative. I said in a report to HEALEY INTERVIEW 15 the Party Convention in 1966 that the party’s But it does seem that the US ruling class is position was really to become the business much more ideologically aware and agent for the business agents, uncritical and organised than say here, with all sorts of supportive of whoever was the dominant organised propaganda in favor of free leadership of the labor movement. enterprise. Now partly the labor response did reflect DH: There’s no question that that’s very the 1950s, the conservatism and the fear of important. The anti-communist hysteria and being isolated. But this hung on for a very the reaction to what took place in the Soviet long time — beyond when it was necessary— Union, Czechoslovakia, etc. all had an and it’s still present in the party. impact. But so did the ideas that we live in a free enterprise economy, and the Concerning women, you had the really of the that ironic and tragic situation that up to two each one can make it, or that you’re years ago the Communist Party and the responsible for yourself if you don’t make it, Jobn Birch Society were the two main that society has no responsibility. These are organisations opposing the ERA (Equal still very dominant and in the 1950s they Rights Amendment). Gradually the official increased. position changed, without the party membership ever being involved in debate on If there hadn't been this problem of people's it but suddenly they published an article image of existing , would that have supporting ERA. made much difference? Why did they oppose it? DH: Oh, certainly. I probably made more public speeches when I was a Party leader DH: On the grounds that it took away the than most party members did and, without legislative gains that had been passed to question, no matter what you talked about, protect women workers. But this saw women the first question you’d get from the audience only at the point of production, as members was always about repression in the Soviet of the working class. The question of social Union. They’d ask: How can you talk to us oppression was simply not recognised. about socialism as an alternative when what you have to offer is less than we have already To what extent did the ruthlessness of the US won? ruling class — especially in the Depression In 1960 I ran for Los Angeles County tax and periods — create the situation assessor (I received 86,500 votes — about 10 of an embattled Communist Party in which per cent — a very high vote for a public sectarianism, conservatism and so on communist). The kind of question I’d flourished? constantly get as I went around speaking D H: Well, I’m one of those who believe that (when you’re on the ballot, automatically you’re invited to speak to any kind of group) you can’t really blame “ objective conditions” for what happens to you. It’s always the would be: Well, if one voted for communists pressure of any ruling class to do that to a and changed one’s mind in six months, how could one be able to change back? communist party and the whole left. The real question is which of your policies make it easier for them to carry that through Now, such people weren’t necessarily and I would say that the main responsibility against socialism. It’s very noticeable both is our own, not the question of repression. As in elections in our country and in England — a matter of fact, it is notable that our great I don’t know about Australia — that minor i losses did not come as a result of the groups that have very little strength but who Depression or even the McCarthy period. Our have the word “socialist” in their title, get great losses came after the Soviet party’s either more votes than communists, or else (CPSU) 20th Congress and our response to it. very significant votes compared to those of Of course, the ruling class attacks had a the much larger communist parties. I great deal to do with producing the mass think this question is a very serious problem social atmosphere of anti- but and communists have to explore, if nothing the greatest setbacks resulted from our own else, all electoral ticket that includes the policies. word “ socialist” . This is a mass phenomenon 16 AUSTRALIAN LEFT REVIEW No. 72 that one cannot disregard, one cannot — the working class, the black movement, ignore. the women’s movement. The mass meaning of different names There has never been a time in our history varies so much from country to country. In when the left has been as irrelevant to the our country there has been no mass significant social movements as it is today. If expression of , so the New you put together all those who call America Movement can define itself as themselves socialists, marxists, marxist- “democratic socialist” which has a different leninists, or what hyphens you prefer, you meaning than it would have, for instance, in would not have more than 20,000 people in your country where the Labor Party uses the United States. There is no immediate that term. In our country, your term “ self­ prospect of a breakthrough. Partly, this management socialism” would not be reflects the fact that from about ’73 until the understood, it would be a clumsy expression energy developments, was very bleak for of what we are getting at — for the US, public protest movements. I don’t think in summarises more what American history there has ever been a we’re talking about. The left should decade devoid of great social and political understand that it’s how struggles and movements. The left can only understand it that’s important. grow if there is a mass environment for it to That raises the question as to why the US grow in, so ithasbeen a very difficult period. party went in a certain direction, while the For the first time, now, there is some sign Italian party, for example, went in a different that that long drought has been broken and one. there is at least the beginning of a DH: Well, I would say probably one of the renaissance of social protest movements. contributing factors, I’ll try to compare it Under what conditions can the left move with others, is the lack of a theoretical outwards to the masses? culture, an independent culture, an ability to D H : I would consider questions of the relate to what is indigenous within the Progressive Alliance as potentially United States and to develop the capacity to important. It will compel, within deal with it, which made it possible for the organisations like NAM, an awareness of the worst kind of empty dogmatism to dominate real world, of the challenge of movements the party. and the arena of struggle that is not I say “empty” because when one examines doctrinally pure, a sensitivity to actual party history and documents of the past, friends and not as we would like them to be there was not always the question of whether among the working class or the women’s we were or were not always particularly movement, or the black and latino correct, but there was at least a depth of movements. That would hold promise for us. analysis that could make coherent a policy. At this point, there is no sign of a qualitative It might have turned out to have been a change in the left’s relationship to the wrong policy but there was a rationale, a working class and mass movements, but logic, or a particular analysis. there is at least an acquiring of significant Since 1960 that has not been true. The credentials to intervene in any of these party has been content with reports and movements with any effectiveness. speeches which are empty platitudes, Our problem is enormously complicated by sonorous generalities, the total absence of the status of the Democratic Party. While we concrete analysis of any particular situation are active, most organised sectors of the and therefore the ability to draw any movement reflect themselves electorally conclusions from anything that is within the Democratic Party. The happening in this society. Democratic Party can contain most of that With the different left organisations, each and absorb it because it is not independently with a different base and constituency, what organised outside the Democratic Party. are the prospects for the socialist movement This is a big problem because a movement in the US? which cannot have any kind of electoral DH: The problem is not that there is a representation or reflection, clearly has great different base and a different constituency, limitations. You can’t fight in the streets for but that they are all warring and competing legislation and then not have an electoral or for the same base and the same constituency legislative approach to it.