Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 24 NOVEMBER 1960

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions [24 NOVEMBER] Questions 1747

THURSDAY, 24 NOVEMBER, 1960 Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied- " As I mentioned in my reply to the Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Honourable Member on March 2, 1960, Murrumba) took the chair at 11 a.m. the question of effecting improvements to the Parcels Office at Townsville is associated with proposals embraced by the QUESTIONS Mt. Isa Railway Project. The prepara­ HAYLES MAGNETIC IsLAND BOAT SERVICE tion of plans and the calling of tenders for much of the project work are now Mr. AIKENS (Town5viJ!c South) asked the well under way, but so far the plans for Minister for Transport- building alterations at Townsville have not "Is it proposed to bring the operations been completed. However, alterations to of Hayles Magnetic Island boat servke the Parcels Office are embodied in the under the Transport Act and, if not why overall work and will receive attention in not?" the order of priority, having due regard for the necessity to firstly put track and Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied- bridge work in hand." "The authority contained in "The State Transport Facilities Acts" to control under license the carriage of passengers or goods LIBRARY RooM, RAILWAY EsTATE STATE upon the inland or coastal waters of this ScHooL, TowNsvrLLE State has never been implemented. Within Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the my term as Minister a set of circumstances Minister for Public Works and Local Govern­ to warrant such implementation has not ment- been brought to my notice but if the Honourable Member desires to furnish me "In view of the fact that over 1,000 with any information which could have a books are at present housed in almost bearing on the necessity for implementation every room at the school, can he give then I shall have such information any estimate as to the date of the com­ examined." mencement of construction of the proposed library room at the Railway Estate State School?" OPERATIONS OF COMALCO AT WEIPA Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) asked the Minister Hon. L H. S. ROBERTS (Whitsunday) for Development, Mines, Main Roads and replied- Electricity- "In view of the necessity to direct the "(1) What progress has been made by services of the Architectural Staff of my Comalco in constructing (a) the Harbour Department to the planning of urgently at Weipa and (b) the alumina factory?" needed classroom accommodation at schools throughout the State, it has not yet been "(2) Has Comalco yet fulfilled its under­ possible to prepare plans for the provision taking given in 1957 to surrender an area of a library room at the Railway Estate of approximately seventy-five acres to be State School. No advice as to the prob­ reserved for the exclusive use of aborigines able date of commencement of construction on Weipa Mission Station?" of the room can be given at present." Hon. E. EVANS (Mirani) replied- "(!) Important discussions with Comalco SEPTIC SYSTEM, WULGURU STATE SCHOOL by the Premier and myself have been proceeding and a statement will be made Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the tomorrow." Minister for Public Works and Local Govern­ ment- "(2) Comalco actually surrendered a "In view of the improbability of a sewer­ much larger area (about 390 acres) sur­ age system in the area in the foreseeable rounding the Weipa Native Village for future, will he consider the installation of this purpose. That surrender was accepted a septic system at the proposed Wulguru on June 27, 1958." State School, as has been done by the Housing Commission with regard to its NEW PARCELS OFFICE, TOWNSVILLE RAILWAY houses in the same area?" STATION Hon. L. H. S. ROBERTS (Whitsunday) Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the replied- Minister for Transport- "The installation of a septic system at "With reference to his answer to my the proposed Wulguru State School is question on March 2, 1960, on the subject, receiving consideration and the necessary can he given any estimate of the date of investigations are being made although I commencement of construction of the new am informed it is unlikely that the site parcels office at the Townsville railway will be suitable for a septic system as station?" water lies on it for very long periods." 1748 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

TIMBER AREAS, QUEENSLAND FORESTS LTD. the demand for tarpaulins during the wet season. The existing repair capacity is Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) asked the ample and there is no intention of re­ Minister for Agriculture and Forestry- opening the tarpaulin shop at Townsville." "(1) Are any areas of standing timber in North Queensland still held by the firm, CONSTRUCTION OF BULK SUGAR TERMINALS Queensland Forests Ltd.?" Mr. BYRNE (Mourilyan) asked the "(2) Does the Company maintain offices Treasurer and Minister for Housing- in Queensland and, if so, where?" "(1) As it would appear from the answer Hon. 0. 0. MADSEN (Warwick) replied­ to Question 10, part (1), on November 17 that there are agreements for service with "(!) The Forestry Department has no Messrs. Macdonald, Wagner and Priddle record of the ownership of private forests." covering the construction of each Bulk "(2) The Department is not aware of Terminal and that such service agreements any office maintained in Queensland by provide that Messrs. Macdonald, Wagncr Queensland Forests Ltd. The Company and Priddle have the right to select and is reported to maintain an Office at 8-14 instruct consultants, who were the consult­ Bond Street, Sydney." ants so selected and instructed and in respect of what works and services?" "(2) Upon what sums of money and in RAILWAY TARPAULINS, TOWNSVILLE respect of what services and in respect Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) asked the of which selected and constructed con~ult· Minister for Transport- ants have Messrs. Macdonald, Wagner imd Priddle proved when establishing entitle­ "(!) Is he aware than (a) some goods ment to the co-ordinating fee of one per wagons had to be left at Townsville on last centum of the cost of the work in respect of Thursday evening, November 17, because of which the special consultants were retained, a shortage of covers and (b) because of the in pursuance of the several service arrange­ state of disrepair of tarpaulins, up to four ments mentioned in his reply to me on have to be used to cover one wagon?" November 17?" "(2) Will he have the situation remedied "(3) (a) What were and are the arrange­ before the onset of the wet season and give ments made and existing between the Sugar serious consideration to the re-opening of Board and the C.S.R. Co. Ltd., whereunder the tarpaulin shop at Townsville?" and in consequence whereof the C.S.R. Co. Ltd. set up a bulk Raw Sugar Section, Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) (b) what moneys and in respect of what replied- services, have been paid under the arrange­ " (I) (a) I am not aware of such a hap­ ment between the Sugar Board and the pe?ing on Thursday, November 17, but on C.S.R. Co. Ltd. meaning and including Fnday, November 18, three wagons which 'salaries of the staff of the particular section had been loaded at Townsville that day (meaning the Bulk Raw Sugar Section) and were left unsheeted and were placed under portion of the salaries of officers of other cover in No. 2 shed. Had the employee sections called upon from time to time for responsible for the sheeting of these advice, etc., (c) what do the words 'other wagons drawn the attention of the Station sections' refer to, (d) what moneys have Master or the Wagons Clerk to the matter, been paid and in respect of whom 'for tarpaulins which arrived at Townsville that travelling expenses and fares of officers day could have been utilised to cover tht> engaged on the work,' (e) as his answer wagons. However, now that the Honour­ to part (6) on November 17 says 'the charge able Member has drawn my attention to for the service covers the actual cost of this matter I am taking steps to see that the service plus an element of profit,' will suitable action is taken with the employee he advise of 'the actual cost and particulars concerned to ensure that there is no recur­ of the service' and also 'of the element rence. (b) Although instances may occur, of profit,' (f) will he explain the reference when the demand for tarpaulins is heavy, to the Refining Agreement and of the of defective tarpaulins being used these relevance of the reference and (g) if !he would be only isolated cases. Tarpaulins, reference is relevant to the agreem~nts generally speaking, are in good condition between the Sugar Board and the C.S.R. and there is a continuous repair programme Co. Ltd. herein referred to, is expenditure at Ipswich Shops." thereunder subject to the same conditions of audit as apply to the Refining Agree­ "(2) There has been no shortage of ment?" tarpaulins in the Townsville District. This "(4) Would it have been possible for is borne out by the fact that on Thursday, services to have been paid for by Messrs. November 17, 31 surplus tarpaulins Macdonald, Wagner and Priddle under the gathered at stations after the close of busi­ answer to part (1) and the same services ness that day were forwarded to Brisbane to have been paid for under the arrange­ and on Friday, November 18, 33 spare ments between the Sugar Board and the tarpaulins were sent to Brisbane. The C.S.R. Co. Ltd. mentioned in answer to Department will be in a position to meet part (6) of November 17?" Questions [24 NOVEMBER] Questions 1749

Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth) replied- Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) "(1) The information as regards the replied- specialised services of mechanical and "( I) The Department's order on the Blair electrical engineering was clearly set out Athol Open Cut Colliery for locomotive in paragraph (1) of my reply to the coal has been reduced fom 1,200 to 850 Honourable Member's question of Novem­ tons per week. The reduction in the ber 17, 1960. The only other specialised order is in no way connected with the supply of wagons, but was made following services of which I have knowledge are the reduced demand for coal consequent architectural services. The Architects upon the termination of the livestock and engaged for the specialised services were­ sugar seasons." Mourilyan: Messrs. Black and Paulsen, Lund, Hutton and Newel!; Lucinda and "(2) No." Townsville: Messrs. Ford, Hutton and "(3) Sufficient wagons are being and will Newell; Mackay: Messrs. Dennis, Odling continue to be made available to the Mines and Reed; and Bundaberg: Messrs. Cook at Blair Athol to enable them to supply and Kerrison and Stuart Nairne." their current orders. A further 300 'VJM' hopper bodies are on order but unfortu­ "(2) I have no knowledge of actual pay­ nately delivery is being held up due to ments made under the agreements for inability to obtain Australian steel sheet. service other than those where the Cor­ However, an effort is now being made to poration of the Treasurer of Queensland secure supplies of imported steel so that was responsible for payment. The two delivery can be speeded up by several Corporation ports are Lucinda and months." Mourilyan. No claim has yet been sub­ mitted for Mourilyan. As regards Lucinda, the following is the information required:-­ HARLAXTON QUARRY FOR RAILWAY (i) For electrical and mechanical services, DEPARTMENT the co-ordinating fee was paid on a total Mr. HOOPER (Greenslopes), for Mr. expenditure of £458,586 10s. 6d.; (ii) For ANDERSON (Toowoomba East), askeJ the architectural services, the co-ordinating fee Minister for Transport- was paid on a total expenditure of "In view of the plentiful supply of blue £45,518 Ss. ld. I might add that the total metal ballast available at the Toowoomba expenditure on the Lucinda installation was City Council's quarry, is it still the inten­ £2,067,792 9s. 4d." tion of the Railway Department to pro­ ceed with the Harlaxton Quarry? If so, "(3) These questions do not relate to when will it be in operation and what is matters coming under my administrative the anticipated price per ton compared direction and should be directed to the with the price at present being paid to Minister concerned. On the previous the City Council?" occasion, I did obtain information touch­ ing another Minister's administration and Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) included that information in my answer. replied- This is not a desirable practice and I "Consideration of continuance of the don't propose to extend it." Quarry Project was carefully examined by Cabinet shortly after this Government "(4) No." assumed office, and whilst it was then considered that the economics of the Quarry were somewhat doubtful-having SUPPLY OF RAILWAY WAGONS FOR BLAIR regard to the very reasonable price at ATHOL COAL which ballast could be provided by the Mr. DONALD (Ipswich East) asked the Toowoomba City Council-it was decided Minister for Transport- that in view of the fact that £64,308 had already been spent on earthworks, track, "(!) Is he aware that the short supply etc., it was too late to discontinue the of railway wagons to the Blair Athol scheme. Consequently, the work has been Open Cut Colliery has resulted in the out­ allowed to proceed and it is anticipated put of that colliery being reduced from that the crushing plant will be fully 1,200 tons a week to approximately 850 installed early next year with the Quarry tons?" itself being in operation by July, 1961. "(2) Has this shortage been caused by As from December 1, Toowoomba City the demand to meet the requirements of Council ballast loaded on rail trucks in the Kianga Colliery?" Toowoomba yards will be 21s. 3d. per yard. It is estimated that when the "(3) If so, what steps are being taken Department's Quarry is in full operation by his Department to see that sufficient cost of production into bins for loading wagons are made available to the mines direct at the Department's Quarry siding on the Blair Athol field to enable them to will be somewhere about 16s. per cubic supply their orders?" yard." 1750 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

COMMONWEALm FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE, Commonwealth Government to examine - BURDEKIN DAM PROJECT the Burdekin proposal visited the area in October, 1949, and made a preliminary Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) asked the report to the Prime Minister, dated Novem­ Premier- ber 10, 1949, which was tabled in the "In view of (a) the recent disturbing House of Representatives on April 20, statements in the House by the Minister 1950. This report indicated that the Com­ for Public Lands, Mr. Fletcher, in mittee considered the engineering proposals reference to the Burdekin Scheme, 'We advanced by Queensland were basically have not done enough to be sure. I sound. A large volume of water could should not like to approach the Federal be made available and substantial quan­ Government on the proposal at the tities of hydro-electric energy could be moment because if they asked me, "Where generated at low rates. The volume of are you going to use the water and what water likely to be available would not are the data on which you base the pro­ be fully and profitably utilised until solu­ posal to spend so much money?" . . . ' tions had been found for a number of and 'I should have to confess that we are major technical and economic problems still groping for some of the answers . . . associated with crop and pasture produc­ We are hastening as fast as we can,' and tion but the Committee was reasonably (b) his own statement in reply to a ques­ hop~ful that, by the time the design and tion that it was considered that any fur­ construction of the project had reached ther action on the part of his Govern­ ment would be futile because of the Prime the stage where water was available in Minister's message on March 22, 1955, the quantities envisaged, considerable pro­ that the Commonwealth cannot agree to gress would have been made in resolving make special financial assistance the outstanding difficulties as far as soils available,- and land usage were concerned. Common­ wealth technical officers examining the (1) What are the 'answers' for which proposal have also visited the area and the Government are groping? have had discussions with Queensland (2) What is the significance of the officers. Reconnaissance soil surveys were statement 'We are hastening as fast as made by the Commonwealth Scientific and we can' and what officers of which Industrial Research Organisation. The Departments are concerned in the results of the continuing investigations by hastening? the State have been made available pro­ gressively to the Commonwealth as they (3) Have any officers been requested became available, as well as further data to prepare a report on the economic specially sought by the Commonwealth soundness of the scheme? Committee and investigating officers.' (4) Will such reports, if any, be From funds provided by the Burdekin River Authority the Department of regarded as of greater value than those Agriculture and Forestry has, for several submitted by J. R. Kemp, who was years, conducted an experimental station Co-ordinator-General for Public Works, at Millaroo for the purpose of examining W. Nimmo, who was Commissioner for and developing solutions of the production Irrigation and Water Supply, and Mr. problems likely to be encountered on the Neil Smith, Commissioner of Electricity heavy Oaky and Barratta soils which com­ Supply, which stated that the proposal prise a large proportion of the proposed was economically sound?" Irrigation area and the most efficient use to which they could be put. Experimental Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough) production of pastures and other crops replied- on these soils is in progress but the ques­ "U to 4) The substance of the remarks of tion has not yet been resolved, and until my colleague, the Minister for Public Lands we obtain a solution of the problem it and Irrigation, was that a further approach would, as I have previously stated, be to the Commonwealth Government for quite futile to make a further approach financial assistance to complete the Burde­ to the Commonwealth. Development of kin Scheme was not practicable at present hydro-electric energy was also a prime because an answer could not be given factor behind the initiation of the Burdekin as to where the water was to be used, Scheme but this has lost its importance and this factor apparently was also the following the completion of other similar projects such as the Tully Falls Hydro­ basis on which the Prime Minister founded Electric Scheme. Whilst one must admire his letter of March 22, 1955, to which I the sudden upsurge of enthusiasm by the referred in answer to a question asked in Honourable Member for Maryborough in this House recently. I should like to this matter, I feel I should remind him quote the following extract from the that he had ample opportunity to obtain Report of the Burdekin River Authority all the information he desired on the (under the Chairmanship of the late Sir subject whilst he was a supporter of the John Kemp) in December, 1951, and I previous Government instead of waiting quote-'The Committee appointed by the until this late stage to display his interest." Personal Explanation [24 NoVEMBER] Scartwater Station Trust, &c., Bill 1751

PAPER Mr. Golding lead a large and representative delegation which met the Premier and the The following paper was laid on the table, Treasurer in Brisbane to protest against the and ordered to be printed:- Government's plans to develop this additional Report of the Department of Agriculture port so close to Gladstone. I have a copy and Stock for the year 1959-1960. of his submissions, which contain the following brief extracts:- PERSONAL EXPLANATION "Any extra cargo that will be handled at Port Alma will be fleeced from Gladstone Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (11.22 a.m.), through Government influence and/ or by leave: I wish to make a personal assistance." explanation. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am afraid the My "Hansard" proof yesterday contained hon. member is turning his personal explana­ a passage relevant to a point I was making tion into a speech. I ask him to make it as regarding Governmental closure of necessary short as possible. railway lines on the grounds of economy as compared with its extraordinary extravagance Mr. BURROWS: There are only a couple in developing an unnecessary and redundant more lines. port some 30 miles north of Gladstone, which is an existing economic and efficient port that The other extracts read- could cope with all the trade offering or "From a close analysis it becomes more likely to accrue for many years to come. and more apparent that the recommen­ I complained that the port of Gladstone dations are for the benefit solely of the was working at only a small fraction of its Central Queensland Meat Export Co. at capacity, and the following exchanges took Lake's Creek." place between the Treasurer and me- "It is no use, Mr. Premier, your trying "Mr. Hiley: The Gladstone Harbour to tell us that we in Gladstone have noth­ Board wrote to me and said you were the ing to worry about." worst 'knocker' they had. Referring to events and intrigues that led up Mr. Burrows: The Treasurer should to this sacrifice of Gladstone and the trade come to Gladstone and oppose me next this enterprising port had built up, Mr. election. Golding said- Mr. Hiley: They dissociated themselves "But I still had faith, Mr. Nicklin, in from your ravings on this subject and the Party I had supported by hard work all apologised to me for the extraordinary my life and assisted financially in no small way you behaved. way and in the Government I had so proudly helped to put into power." Mr. Burrows: Let the Treasurer study the report of any deputations he has If I did not support the views of Mr. received from them. Did they tell him Golding in respect to this plan to bankrupt that in the Premier's Office when the the Gladstone Harbour Board in an effort to deputation came down here? appease Vesteys, I would not be worthy to sit in this Parliament. If the Treasurer has any Mr. Hiley: No. They wrote it to me secret dossier on me, I invite him to lay it the other day. on the table of the House. Mr. ~urrows: They did not write any­ thing of the sort. Mr. Hiley: Yes, they did." GIFT DUTY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL Yesterday I contacted the Chairman and the THIRD READING Secretary of the Gladstone Harbour Board who both ridiculed the Treasurer's statement, Bill, on motion of Mr. Hiley, read a third and later I received a telegram from Mr. time. Golding, Chairman of the Gladstone Harbour Board, who is a Member of the SEWERAGE, WATER SUPPLY, AND British Empire and a Fellow of the Royal GASFITTING ACTS AMENDMENT Geographical Society. He is also President BILL of the Gladstone Liberal Party and for many years has been very prominent on public THIRD READING bodies in Gladstone. Sir Arthur Fadden, Bill, on motion of Mr. Roberts, read a during his inquiry into Central Queensland third time. ports, described Mr. Golding as an outstand­ ing authority on port matters. SCARTWATER STATION TRUST Mr. Gelding's telegram to me reads- EXTENSION ACT AMENDMENT "Have no knowledge of any such state­ BILL ment from Gladstone Harbour Board on THIRD READING subject allegedly raised by Treasurer in Parliament yesterday. Bill, on motion of Mr. Fletcher, read a Golding." third time. 1752 Public Service Superannuation [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill

PUBLIC SERVICE SUPERANNUATION 1 April, 1959, the new Public Service super­ ACf AMENDMENT BILL annuation scheme, which is working admir­ ably at the present time. Under that scheme, INITIATION IN COMMITTEE vastly improved benefits were given to the (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, public servants of this State. Clayfield, in the chair.) Good as those benefits are, we propose to improve them in this Bill, firstly, in accor­ Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough­ dance with our policy that the salaries and Premier) (11.31 a.m.): I move- conditions of the Queensland Public Service "That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­ should accord with those of the other States, duced to amend the Public Service Super­ and secondly, to relate the scheme better to annuation Act of 1958, in certain par­ recent salary increases in the Public Service. ticulars." In the case of each class of benefit, that is, annuity, incapacity, and widows' pensions, As hon. members know, in 1958 a Bill the maximum number of units will be was introduced bringing in a new super­ increased from 30 to 39. Unit values will annuation scheme for the Public Service of not be changed, nor will the salary scale for Queensland. Since that Bill was introduced contribution up to the present maximum of we have found that one or two matters 30 units be altered. associated with it need tidying up, and that is the purpose of the present amendment. The consequent monetary increase in The existing Bill has been in operation maximum benefits will be- since 1 April, 1959. A problem under the Annuity benefit-from £1,260 to £1,638 Queensland Public Service superannuation per annum. scheme is-and I think all hon. members will Incapacity benefit-the same as annuity appreciate it always has been-the public in the case of males, and from £1,005 to servant whose health debars him from £1,306 lOs. Od. per annum in the case becoming a contributor and thus enjoying the of females. full benefits that accrue to the public servant who is a good health risk. Widow's pensions-from £630 to £819 per annum. It is to be remembered that until a few The very liberal Crown subsidy of 12s. in the years ago the Queensland scheme was £1 will, of course be payable in respect virtually entirely contributory, and thus our of the increases. public servants contributed over the years Since 1928, certain members of the Uni­ of their service for whatever superannua­ versity staff have been enabled to contribute tion benefits they might hope to attain on voluntarily to the superannuation fund. retirement, premature loss of office through Having regard to the interchangeability of sickness, or death. academic officers between Universities, the Bill has provision whereby members of the It would not, of course, be equitable to academic staff of the University can be given require the officers in good health to carry the option to contribute to an inter-universities the load for those unfortunates in poor superannuation scheme. Many members of health. However, the plight of the public the University staff, as they move from Uni­ servar:J.t who is debarred by ill-health from versity to University during the course of contributing for superannuation benefits was their careers, prefer the inter-universities only one, and by no means the greatest, of superannuation scheme to the State super­ the public service problems that faced this annuation scheme, so they are given the Government when we assumed office in option. 1957. We found that the public service superannuation scheme was not only very Good as the present Act is, it necessarily poor in comparison with superannuation left some matters to be considered and tidied schemes that existed in private industry, but up, and the Bill does that. It is quite under­ it was also very poor in comparison with standable. Some few matters of detail were Public Service superannuation schemes that missed when we brought down the measure existed in other States. We realised that the in 1958 because its introduction was a matter whole concept of superannuation for all the of urgency. I have already mentioned one Public Service had to be changed, and we of them. It concerns those public servants set about that job of bringing Queensland's who are prevented by poor health from con­ Public Service superannuation scheme from tributing at all for superannuation benefits the unsatisfactory scheme that it was to one or whose contributions are limited for that in keeping with modern practice. reason. In explanation-the rate of con­ tribution is related to salary classification and Shortly after assuming office we set up a can ordinarily be increased from time to committee to inquire into and make recom­ time with salary increases up to to the per­ mendations concerning the Public Service mitted maximum. The Public Service unions superannuation scheme. As hon. members have asked that provision be made in the will remember, a very comprehensive and scheme for public servants in poor hC:alth excellent report was presented to Parliament. along the lines of the provident fund prov1ded Based on that report, a Bill was introduced under the Commonwealth Act. However, in 1958 which brought into operation, from we have decided not to set up a special fund Public Service Superannuation [24 NOVEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 1753 within the scheme but to allow public servants The provisions of the Act relating to who have a health disability to contribute to medical certificates are altered to conform to the superannuation fund for annuity benefit administrative practice, which is, in effect, only, their contribution being subject to some that every applicant is accepted as a contri­ restrictions that do not apply ordinarily and butor unless his medical certificate fails to also subject to some compensating con­ satisfy the Board of his good health. At cessions. The restrictions are that the con­ present the Act is more positive in this tribution must continue until retiring age is respect, in that it requires the applicant to reached. Ordinarly, contributions are sus­ satisfy the Board regarding his health. pended during sick leave without pay and they cease upon retirement through ill-health A doubt as to the power to appoint before reaching the retiring age. deputies for members of the Public Service Superannuation Board generally, as distinct Mr. Lloyd: This will eliminate the neces­ from meeting particular absences, is removed sity for a doctor's certificate for those over by providing for the general appointment. 40 years of age? Previously, if a member of the Superannu­ Mr. NICKLIN: Yes. The compensating ation Board happened to be absent, a special concessions are that the contributor is free, appointment had to be made to fill the irrespective of his age, to select for himself vacancy during his absence. This provision the amount of benefit for which he wishes will enable a general appointment to be made to contribute, and he is equally free to to cover any absences of members of the increase his contribution from time to time. Superannuation Board from time to time. That concession has only one restriction­ namely, that the contributor must keep within Another amendment reduces from 10 to the maximum scale according to his salary. five years the minimum period of contribu­ tions required to entitle a contributor to the If retired through ill-health, the contributor Crown subsidy upon incapacity allowance. can elect to withdraw. If so, he is paid the surrender value of his contributions. But he A proviSion appropriates Consolidated can, if he chooses, continue to contribute Revenue to payment of interest on the Public after his retirement. Service Superannuation Fund. In return for Another valuable concession to this con­ having the use of this fund, the Crown pays tributor is that, on reaching the retiring age, interest upon the credit balances that are in he can elect to convert the annuity benefit the fund from time to time. into annuities payable to himself and, after his death, to his wife. The concession given Finally, provision is made for the estab­ to officers over 40 years of age, when the lishment upon an actuarial basis of a special new scheme became operative on 1 April, Treasury fund to meet the Crown's propor­ 1959, to contribute for some units of benefit tion of Public Service superannuation benefits. at half rates is also extended to officers who, up to the present, have been debarred by ill­ In general, the Crown subsidises all benefits health by this concession. It covers six units to the extent of three-fifths of the total for males and two units for females. benefit. A Crown subsidy was first granted from 1 January, 1949, and increased in The Bill also contains a concession to public 1954. Until 1955 it was met from the servants who were over 40 years of age when Consolidated Revenue Fund, as it became they came under the new superannuation payable, and no provision was made to meet scheme on 1 April, 1959, or who may be future liabilities of the fund until 1955. As over that age when increased salary affords from 1 July, 1955, an amount was set aside them an opportunity to increase their con­ to the credit of a trust fund called "The tributions for benefits. Hon. members will Public Service Superannuation Additional remember that, initially, officers aged 40 Benefits Fund." For each of the first three years or over were allowed to decide for financial years it was £303,600, but the themselves the extent to which they desired present Gevernment have increased it for to take advantage of the new scheme. Also, the last two financial years. The improved officers of, or over, 40 years of age are free benefits under the new scheme have increased to refuse to increase their contribution with considerably the Crown's liability, as hon. any salary increase where the added contri­ members will appreciate, and in all the bution means that more than 5 per cent. of circumstances it is deemed advisable that the salary will go toward superannuation con­ annual amount required to meet the Crown's tributions. present and future liabilities should be Quite a number of officers who have taken assessed actuarially and paid each year to the advantage of this concession now find that credit of the special trust fund that I have liberal salary increases since this Government just mentioned. took office have put them in a position where they now desire to make up the leeway. The matter of putting the Crown's liability The Government are agreeable to allowing on a proper actuarial footing extends to the contributions to be increased at any time three recognised branches of Crown expendi­ up to the permissible maximum. I point out ture, that is, the Consolidated Revenue Fund, that in these cases the general rule will apply, the loan Fund Account, and the Trust and namely, the health of the officer concerned Special Funds, and the Bill makes provision must be satisfactory. for that. 1754 Public Service Superami•Jation [ASSEMBLY} Act Amendment Bill

In conclusion, I can assure the Committee sufficiently attractive to keep them there, that the interests of public servants in their and to bring into the service people who superannuation fund are very carefully safe­ can make a worth-while contribution to the guarded in the Bill by the new provisions State, rather than have them seek employ­ that are being included in it to protect that ment in other branches of industry. For special trust fund. that reason we consider that there must always be a reasonable incentive for at least I have explained the provisions of the Bill a fair share of the best brains in the very fully, and I should like to mention for community, as reflected by examinations, to the information of hon. members that when enter the State Public Service. Of course, they receive a copy of it they will see that the results of examinations do not always the new scale of units is included in the indicate who will be the best administrators. Schedule. These amendments will make even In the Railway Department I have seen better the excellent superannuation scheme people who secured "A" passes in five or that our public servants enjoy at present, six subjects in the Junior University and I commend the Bill to the Committee. examination who were not nearly as bright, particularly in the stenographic section, as Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader those coached at some of the Brisbane of the Opposition) (11.45 a.m.): It is obvious colleges. Some of the latter class were much that the Opposition accord this measure more efficient and useful than many of those support because two of the amendments that who had the capacity and the ability to pass the Premier has indicated are included in examinations with credit. I think that the the Bill were suggestions that flowed from Premier will agree that although we must set this side of the Chamber when the previous an academic standard it does not always follow Bill was before us two years ago. On that that people with the academic qualifications occasion the Deputy Leader of the Australian make the best administrators. But there must Labour Party, the hon. member for Kedron, be some measuring stick. specifically drew attention to the desirability of making provision for people suffering from Mr. Pizzey: You do not measure person­ ill health who were denied the opportunity ality and leadership by examinations. of being covered by the benefits of a super­ annuation scheme. He particularly directed Mr. DUGGAN: That is very true. My attention to those who might have some association with some of these so-called "egg­ shortening of life expectancy because of war heads," as they are sometimes called-and injuries and suggested that adequate provision I do not want to associate myself with should be made for them in the Bill. At those who evaluate intellectuals in that way­ that time the Premier apparently did not prompts me to say that it is sometimes very think that the point should be conceded, but hard to follow their conclusions based on suggested that the matter might be left pure pristine training. However, I am not in abeyance. Obviously the renewed repre­ quarrelling particularly with that except that sentations of the Queensland State Public I say that we should set a general standard. Service Union have borne fruit. As employers we must owe some respon­ sibility to Crown employees, but at the same Mr. Nicklin: We conceded the point, but time we must see to it that that general we thought it better to get the Bill passed measure of liberality in salary and retirement then and amended later. provisions are not denied to the general taxpayer. Very often it can become some­ Mr. DUGGAN: We are in agreement with what of a close preserve because of the the desirability of the Bill, but I am pointing pressure applied by public servants, to the out that on the previous occasion we were detriment of other sections of the community not remiss in our obligations to the public that have not the same opportunity of access servants. We tried to have that matter to the Government of the day. I am not covered at the time. I say that for the reason denying for one moment the right of the that the Premier and his spokesmen some­ union to exercise reasonable pressure, but times have made political capital out of the sometimes outside industry does not keep up fact that they considered we had lagged with what the various Governments do for greatly behind in Public Service conditions, public servants. I am not suggesting for a moment that we should reduce the Public particularly in regard to superannuation. I Service level. On the contrary, I think there must confess that I agree with that view. should be a levelling up rather than a levelling I said so on television in the "Meet the down. Press" session. I was asked bluntly whether I felt that position could have existed. I There is one other point on the amend­ said that I felt that public servants perhaps ment covering public servants who are 40 had not received from the Government what years of age and over. Again on this point their contribution to the service of the State the hon. member for Kedron asked the Premier two years ago whether, seeing that entitled them to. We indicated in our policy the fund appeared to be quite buoyant, we speech that we were prepared to recognise might review this matter to some extent. that. If we are to have contented public However, the Premier was disinclined to servants, obviously we must see that the review it within a period of less than five condition5 obtaining in the service are years. The hon. member for Kedron said Public Service Superannuation (24 NOVEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 1755 on that occasion that he felt it might be I should like the Premier particularly to examined within a shorter period. The Gov­ have another look at one aspect of the super­ ernment have now seen fit to review it annuation scheme which I am certain is not within less than five years. I am not quar­ new to him because I feel the State Public relling with that; I am merely pointing out Service Union would have raised the matter. that we requested that a review be made The 1958 Bill provided in what is now within a shorter period than five years. Section 83 (2) of the Act- Under the proposed amendment public ser­ "All contributions and moneys paid to vants will be able to apply for a maximum the Fund under this Act and all pay­ of £1,638 a year retiring allowance, which ments out of the Fund on any account is £31 10s. a week. That, I think, is a whatsoever shall be exempt from any fairly generous provision for retirement on charge or duty whatsoever for or in respect the current cost of living. Any person who of any income tax, stamp duty, probate has completed his working life and who has or succession duty, or other tax or duty been able to acquire a home and furniture, imposed by any law of this State." and probably a car, should, on current costs No-one can complain about the blanket of living, be able to Iive quite adequately on exemption given under that provision, but that maximum provision. After all, quite a unfortunately the Government have not lived number of people with young families and up to their moral obligations in this regard. the responsibilities of paying off a home or The truth is that an estate does not attract of paying rent, have to live on half that death duties unless it is in excess of £4,000. sum. If we expect large numbers of the But it is added to the other assets of the community to live on the basic wage when deceased person, and the combined assets, they have growing children and have to meet that is, the assets owned in his own right educational charges and pay off their by the deceased public servant and the value indebtedness to the housing authorities and so on, we cannot say that £31 1Os. a week of the superannuation benefits are taken into is a miserable or inadequate retirement pro­ account in arriving at the rate of duty, and vision. the rate of duty is thus increased. If a person has assets worth £6,000 and the There is one point that I cannot resist value of his superannuation was assessed making on this measure. It is that the at £7,000, duty is not paid on the £7,000, Premier said when introducing it that it is but the £6,000 attracts a higher rate than possible for the over-40 group to make it would attract if it was not combined greater provision for their old age because with the £7,000 for the purpose of arriving of liberal salary increases since this Gov­ at the rate. ernment came into office. Is the inference to be drawn from that that it is only because I am certain that it is not the intention, in the Government have given those increases any Government measures introduced to to the Public Service that public servants give protection to widows. After all, a widow can avail themselves of the increased bene­ has lost her breadwinner and that is in itself fits? In other words, is the inference not a very substantial loss. In addition she is that the Government have given to the public taxed through the instrumentality of the servants liberal increases that have not been Stamps Office at a higher rate than would enjoyed by other sections of the community? otherwise apply to the estate. I hope the I do not think there can be any quibbling Premier will have a look at this matter. I with words in that regard. The Premier, no doubt, carefully chose his words to enable do not know if a great amount of money him to escape any charge that the Govern­ is involved. As far as I can ascertain eight ment have, without Industrial Court approval, cases came into the category last year, but made these Public Service increases possible. I have no information as to the amounts. We know there is a good deal of disquiet Mr. Nicklin: The Treasurer is examining outside on the basis that, whilst the attitude that question at the moment. of the court, with the active encouragement of the Government, has been to adjust these Mr. DUGGAN: I am glad to know that. things on a basis of "like with like" to other This seems an appropriate occasion to raise State awards where this can be adequately the matter. I understand there were only carried out, unfortunately the same principle eight cases in the category last year, and does not seem to have been applied to the I do not know the amount of money great mass of industry generally. 'involved, but that information would be available to the Treasurer. It is possible I think I am entitled to take that point in this regard. Either the Government cannot that those estates would not attract very accept credit for those increases on the much tax; if that is so, and the amount is ground that they were done by the court or, trifling, the provision may not be worth if they do accept credit, as the inferential keeping. statement by the Premier indicates on this occasion, then they should be prepared to All the provisions of the Bill are such that act in a similar sympathetic manner towards they must commend themselves to hon. the great mass of employees who cannot members on both sides of the Committee. make representations for the adjustment of As I indicated previously, I am appreciative, their wages and conditions. as are my colleagues, of the work done by 1756 Public Service, &c., Bill [ASSEMBLY] Supply pub!ic servants. They should enter the SUPPLY service knowing that they have career pros­ pects ahead of them. I think most people RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-EsTIMATES­ today, when entering any phase of employ­ SIXTEENTH ALLOTTED DAY ment, are as much concerned about retirement (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, provisions as anything else. As hons Clayfield, in the chair) members know, persons entering employment want some reasonable measure of security. ESTIMATES-IN-CHIEF, 1960-1961 They want to know that they will be DEPARTMENTS OF DEVELOPMENT AND MINES, covered in their old age to such an extent MAIN ROADS, AND ELECTRICITY that they will not be obliged to abandon their former way of life completely. That CHIEF OFFICE is one of the tragedies of inadequate schemes. Hon. E. EVANS (Mirani-Minister for I recall cases of people who held fairly Development, Mines, Main Roads and high classified positions and had a certain Electricity): I move- social standing to maintain-not an extrava­ "That £234,696 be granted for 'Depart. gant one-who, after their retirement, and ments of Development and Mines, Main when receiving a very low superannuation Roads, and Electricity-Chief Office'." benefit, were obliged to cut themselves away completely from the company ofjheir former As hon. members know, I have recently had social associates. That is undesirable. It a trip to America and Japan and I wish is not to be expected that their benefits first to outline the reasons why Cabinet and should be such that they can afford to the Government parties agreed to send me throw parties at expensive hotels or entertain overseas. Firstly, there were strong repre­ on an extravagant scale, but I do not think sentations from the Gladstone Harbour Board it should be the normal expectation of a that I should go to Japan to assist, if pos­ person who has been accustomed to associate sible, in the selling of coal, and secondly, with people on approximately equivalent petroleum gas had been discovered at Roma, income levels, that he should be obliged to finds that were very encouraging. I shall have a good deal to tell the Assembly about leave that social atmosphere because inade­ that matter as I proceed. We have also quate provision has been made for his found small quantities of oil in quite a few retirement. bores in Queensland, but up to date no com­ The other point to which I shall refer mercial quantities have been found. briefly is the indication by the Premier that When I took over as Minister I had to there is some elasticity or flexibility in the amend the Petroleum Act and I had a good Bill giving authority by way of Order in deal of assistance with the amendment from Council to professors of the University to people who had the know-how in America. contribute either to the Public Service Super­ During my visit to the various oil centres, I annuation Scheme or alternatively the was informed on many occasions that our University superannuation scheme. I thought Petroleum Act is the best in the world in these men of great learning would have been regard to prospecting. I visualised that it was able to decide quickly which scheme was necessary to fruther amend that Act, because preferable for them, but apparently they we will find oil. We have some of the have not been able to do so up to the strongest companies in the world-fortunately, introduction of this Bill. This matter independent companies-looking for oil in poses problems which may have some impact Queensland, and spending millions of pounds on budgeting by the Treasurer. Unive12ities on it. When we do find oil we want to have throughout Australia are having great diffi­ the legislation on the Statute Book to deal culty in securing staff because of the intense with many of th eproblems that will arise. competition in all parts of the world for professorial staff, and there is a tendency On the first step of our journey, we went to Japan. We were held up in Manila for among universities to bid against each other two days by a typhoon. We should have for the services of available persons who been four days in Japan, but because of the wish to take up university careers as pro­ two days that we lost we could stay only fessors, lectures, and so on. In addition two days as our schedules had all been there is a tendency for universities to offer arranged in advance in America. Those not only high salaries and good retirement schedules were arranged by the oil companies, conditions but also to, give study leave and and during our stay in America-- things of that kind, which are most attrac­ tive but which accentuate the problem, Mr. Dnggan: You mean the oil prospect­ because if a professor takes study leave to ing companies? go overseas, the university has to fill his Mr. EVANS: Yes, the independent oil place while he is away. That is a problem prospecting companies; they are all inde­ that does not arise when study leave and pendent companies. They put their planes other concessions are not given. at our disposal and I do not think it cost Progress reported. us more than £10 for hotel bills. All the travelling arrangements and the itinerary At 12 noon, in accordance with Standing arrangements were undertaken by these com­ Order No. 307, the House went into Com­ panies. The people in Japan pleaded with mittee of Supply. me to defer my departure for several days, Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1757 but as the other arrangements had been not a party matter with me; it was a matter of made I could not postpone my departure. selling products, of earning credits and of While I was there I met all the leading doing something for Queensland. Japanese mining people. The Ambassador gave me a dinner where I met many of Anyway, when the discussions began, the them, and then the mining people them­ Japanese were very bitter about the incident selves gave a dinner which was attended by of the coal shipment and I gave them a written !foughly 200 people who were interested undertaking, which changed their attitude. in mining. It was a buffet dinner and lasted I say this without any fear of contradiction. for about 2 to 2t hours. For the period Roy Duncan, the agent over there, assisted that I was in Japan, I found that the Japanese greatly. He is an Australian and a very people whom I met were wonderful people estimable man. Les Thiess sat back very to talk to. Although they generally under­ quietly because he had to, after what had stand what you say, they have it repeated happened with the bad shipment. But I gave by an interpreter, who is always a legal man. an undertaking, and my Government have They think one thing at a time and any approved of it, that, in the case of any further conference with them on any matter takes shipment of coal to Japan, Mr. Thiess must hours and hours and perhaps at 9 o'clock pay our fuel technologist, Mr. Norman, to that night they will phone you and want inspect the coal being loaded and that only you to come along to clear up another soft coking coal or hard coking coal, would point. I did not mind that. go in the ship. I think that soothed them. There was a different feeling altogether after Mr. Duggan: A man who visited Japan the undertaking was given and I think it told me that he always spoke to them in had a great deal to do with the contracts Japanese, that they conducted negotiations that we entered into. in their own language, but that the contracts were always written in English. Mr. Davies: It was an inexcusable blunder. Mr. EVANS: Inexcusable. It was a terrible Mr. EVANS: They can talk English as well thing to happen; it should never have hap­ as we can. They could understand every pened. We had no control over it, but, as word I said to them; I fully realise that. But we have come into the picture and assisted they are peculiar people. They have a one­ greatly in selling coal, we must see that they track mind. My mission was to sell coal are given a fair deal. We want friendship and that is what I wanted to do. with Japan. Japan is a great nation; she has rebuilt her industries. I am not going Mr. Lloyd: They would end up selling you. to say that the Japanese did not do things that they should not have done, but they Mr. EVANS: They would have a job to are buying our sugar and our wheat, and do that. I will tell the Committee all that they are the best customers for our wool. I did but I will not tell all that I thought They want to buy iron ore and many other about it. It was a very fruitful visit. goods. When one is speaking to them they Let me explain first the obstacles. A ship­ never question the fact that they are buying ment of coal, termed a trial shipment, had five or six times more from us than we are been sent to Japan. I want to absolve Thiess buying from them. entirely from responsibility because he was From what I could gather-I do not think not in Gladstone, nor was his brother, when I was mislead-they are very worried about the ship was sent. However, instead of being the sources of supply for their raw materials. Kianga coal, half the shipment was Callide They are getting them from Saigon, India, coal. It was a very severe cost on the and some places where the Communist Japanese people who wanted to test that coal influence is spreading fairly quickly, and I but they had been sent steaming coal instead think they are afraid of losing their supplies of coking coal. Furthermore, steaming coal of raw materials and being left with big is very dangerous coal to ship. Once when the industries and no materials to keep them previous Government were in office a ship­ going. load of it caught fire; its combustion is very great. Thiess Bros. were fined £9,000 in the Wherever I went in Japan-and everywhere terms of the agreement but we had it broken else, for that matter-not only this Govern­ down to £900. I am not taking all the credit ment but all Governments in the British for that. I merely played my part as a repre­ Commonwealth were held in very high sentative of the Government and of the esteem. It was recognised that agreements people of Queensland. made with Governments in the British Com­ monwealth were safe, that we would stand Mr. Thackeray: You did a better job than by them, and people had every confidence in George Pearce, anyway. entering into agreements with our Govern­ ments. Mr. EVANS: George Pearce wrote me a letter congratulating me on what I did and I heard a speech made by Dr. Courtice in I thanked him for that. I showed that letter Tulsa, and I felt proud as I listened to it. to the hon. member who interjected. . My I had to speak the same day. In that speech part in the matter was simply that of a he spoke of the various countries where Minister who had been given authority by America had spent hundreds of millions of my Government to do certain things. It was dollars searching for oil. He said that in 1758 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supp(v some countries-! shall not mention names­ Mr. Duggan: Is it true that when you where oil was found, Governments had dived in at Waikiki Beach-- repudiated the agreements. There were no clauses in the agreements other than those The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am surprised relating to the royalty to be paid, and in one at the hon. gentleman. case in particular where the royalty was Mr. EVANS: I am not going to get onto 15 per cent., the Government legislated and frivolous matters. There was time for work increased it to 7 5 per cent. After the and time for play. Americans had gone there and discovered the oil, they were put in the position that they When I went to Los Angeles I saw many could not go on producing. The costs were marvellous things, apart from Hollywood. I so great that the margins they were receiv­ saw representatives of the Union Oil Co. ing really hunted them out. Hon. members who showed me over their plant. I saw can imagine how pleased I was that no the pumps and refineries working. What Australian Government was mentioned in impressed me most of all was the large sums any of those statements that were made. of money they are spending on research. Their research laboratories cover 30 acres. I think the discussions I had during the Even though I suppose they are making time I was in Japan created a great deal of plenty of money and what they spend on goodwill. research is a set-off against income tax, I Mr. Davies: Did the Minister visit the commended the President of the Union Oil same places as the Minister for Labour and Co. on the enormous amount of research Industry, or did he cut into some new they are conducting into oil and its by­ ground? products. Mr. EVANS: I do not know what places Many hon. members know that I spent the Minister for Labour and Industry some money looking for oil. When I got visited. to America I realised that through not hav­ ing the necessary know-how we cmald have Mr. Thackeray: No-one does. gone through oil and not known it. There Mr. EVANS: I am not going to enter into was water in our wells, and you have to that, because I was away. The Minister for bore in a dry well. You learn as you get Labour and Industry had his own itinerary, older. I never had much time for geologists. and he had nothing to do with the mission I thought they were doodlebugs who just I was on. I was on a mission for my guessed. But after I saw their research Government and a mission representing the laboratories, the cores, the research, advice people of Gladstone, who pleaded for me to and assistance rendered, I changed my mind go. about the whole business-not so much about the geologists because they can only tell you Mr. Houston: \\1here was he? whether it is the right type of rock. They showed me graphs of different parts of Mr. EVANS: He was there on the matter America where they had bored and got no of tourism. Getting away from my Estimates oil, but after spending millions and millions for a moment, I spent a day in Honolulu of dollars on seismic work and research they waiting for a plane, and I would say that proved that there was oil on one side or the Honolulu and Waikiki are not in the race other. The graph was there to show that with the beaches in Australia. Our beaches there were now easily 80 producing wells are miles ahead of the beaches there. They on each side, about half a mile away from have to cart sand to them. But when one where they bored the dry holes. It was really sees the people who go there and the money worth seeing and really interesting. It was that is spent there and what is really hap­ heartening to realise the amount of money pening in Honolulu and Waikiki, one realises they have spent on research. It was that we must do everything possible to heartening to !mow that some of the inde­ popularise our beaches in Australia. pendent companies in America were pre­ Government Members: Hear, hear! pared to put their money into oil research in Australia. Mr. EVANS: Hon. members will be sur­ prised to hear that throughout America and I admit that I made a mistake. When the other countries I visited, I found that I took over my portfolio we gave out big the licensing laws were quite different from areas because there were very few people ours, and I saw less drunkenness in those looking for oil in Queensland. I am not countries in the time I was there than I would blaming anyone for that but if I had my see here in one day. I know I am getting time over again I would reduce the areas away from the Estimates, but I wanted to considerably although I would not make give hon. members that information. them too small. The Petroleum Act already gives people the right to buy and sell, but The CHAIRMAN: Order! I draw the the price must be approved by me. Since I attention of hon. members to the fact that have been in America quite a few people the Minister has made passing reference to have tried to buy into areas to look for oil something that is irrelevant. I trust that no in Queensland. Anyone who sells will not other hon. member will take advantage of rob the people who buy. I will take into that fact. consideration the money that has been spent Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1759 and what they intend to do. I do not mind he would sooner find gas than oil. Mr. if they are merely getting their money back, Woulfe proved to me that with hydro-frac­ but if they fix exorbitant prices because we turing he had actually increased the produc­ have found gas and small quantities of oil, tion of some of his wells from 5,000,000 to I have the power-and I will make recom­ 50,000,000 cubic feet. Hon members will mendations accordingly to Cabinet-to see therefore realise that there are still hopes that any deal that is made is reasonable. for the people of Roma. I will tell them about this when I see them. They possibly Mr. Uoyd: You won't let them charge know about it; they should. It is remarkable Gulf of Mexico prices, as they are doing to see them using the actual sand in which now? the oil is found to store surplus gas, which is Mr. EVANS: I will tell hon. members available to them at a later date. about the Gulf of Mexico; I was there. I We went then to Houston, where more or also saw drillers in Los Angeles with the less the same thing applied. It was raining pumping plant on the mainland producing oil heavily when we arrived. Many people think from under the sea. that all the roads of America are perfect, I was amazed after I moved on to Los but thousands and thousands of miles of Angeles to learn that the United States is roads are not even sealed with bitumen. importing oil from Borneo and the Middle Traffic was blocked, just as it is blocked East. When I went on to some of the other in rainy weather in many places in Australia. refineries I found that they were working We went from Tulsa 'to Little Rock, their oil wells only eight days a month. They the town where racial trouble has occurred, have varying laws in the different States, and and stayed there for a day. From there production costs, I assume, are much higher we went to Dallas and had a long stay in in some than in others. the town. The Delhi-Taylor people took us over and looked after us exceptionally Then I went on to Tulsa, which is one of well. They showed us what they were doing the major oil cities of America. I went to in the way of research. Mr. Joe Petersen about half a dozen. Each city claimed it was with us all the time. His expenses were was the capital oil ciry, but I did not try to not the responsibility of the Government; decide which was the capital city. I found he paid his own way. He was very for­ them all very fine cities. The hotel at which tunate, however, as all our party were, in I stayed in the city of Dallas was 35 storeys that our bills were usually paid before we high, and I can assure hon. members that could get down to the office to pay them. the oil areas in America are very wealthy. We then went to Texas, which is really I was taken to the outside areas of Tulsa the oil centre of the United States. An and I m~t a man named Woulfe who had area of 50 by 9 miles is studded with oil gas wells and oil wells. I am sure the wells. The average is one well to every information I gleaned from him will be of 5 acres. We saw one pump working two interest to hon. members. The day after wells. They were very close. meeting Mr. Woulfe I went to Phillips & In America the set-up is different from that Company's research department. It covers a in Australia. In most cases the oil is owned very large area and they are doing there more by the land-holder and royalties and leases research than the Union Company is doing. have to be arranged. All the individual arrange­ Mr. Woulfe told me they use a process ments must raise tremendous complications called hydro-fracturing to maintain the flow and great difficulties. Many people get a in many oil wells that have ceased produc­ great deal of money they should not get. tion. The system is apparently to pump The set-up there convinced me that our law, water in, followed by billions of small under which the State owns all the petroleum aluminium pellets. The sand gets so tight i& a good one, and I am convinced that in from the pressure of the earth that the the legislation we will have to bring for­ oil will not flow, and, using this method ward it will be necessary to cover that they have brought many wells back into position. Under the Petroleum Act those production, and they are now producing more who have the prospecting leases are respon­ oil than when they were first sunk. I also sible for damage. It was absolute waste to learned that there are wells still with 40-odd see the great number of wells, particularly per cent. of oil left in them but it will in East Kilgore, where you could virtually not flow until they are hydro-fractured. All jump from one well to the next. I think that work is done in the various research in our legislation we will have to make pro­ departments. Phillips & Co. have two leases vision to some extent as to the sinking of in Australia, and they are handling them wells on given areas. Americans will admit as they do all over America. that a serious mistake was made in allowing Mr. Woulfe also asked me what we were the companies to bore dozens of holes close doing with our gas bores. I said, "We are tGgether--even right in the township. Where just starting. We have wells with capacities they have 50 or 100 bores, I should say that of 6,500,000, 2,000,000, 1,000,000 and the job could have been done with 10 holes. 600,000 cubic feet." He then brought out I have mentioned Los Angeles. I found his papers and showed me the results from in Texas that pumps could be operated for gas wells he had which proved that gas is only eight days a month. The States have more valuable in America than is oil. Every arrived at such decisions possibly because oil man in America will tell you today that of over-production of oil. 1760 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

We flew over many towns along the that Comalco would not get into production, Mississippi, a marvellous river with boats because if it did there would be more g&lore. It is wholJy navigable, and presents alumina and thus more aluminium on to the a very different picture from the oil country market. Many people have the impression that Texas is a barren, desert country, but it is not Mr. Davies: That is a big statement. like that at all where they raise cattle and Mr. EVANS: It is true. It is only com­ groyv wheat and . corn, and other crops. In mon sense that if a company has a vast the1r petro-chemical plant they make sul­ smelter that cost about £80,000,000 and it phate of ammonia-and I am getting some is not working, it is not going to put money sent over here-as weiJ as superphosphates into another "show" to bring more and Mar!ex, which is put on the dashboard~ aluminium or alumina onto the market. I of cars. The revenue they receive from could see it immediately I went in. I was their "secondaries" from oil is almost equal happy. I was not so happy when I first to the money they get from oil. I met a Dr. Rutledge there who asked me how went out, but, after I saw the set-up, I realised that Comalco could not finance it ma~y bushels of corn we get to the acre. I d1d not have much of an idea but Joe on their own. After all, Comalco have Petersen said 150 bushels an a~re would £50,000,000 in assets. It will cost them at be an enormous crop. Over there, because least £45,000,000 to establish an alumina of the cheapness of sulphate of ammonia and plant in Weipa, build the town and carry superphosphate, they grow 400 to 500 bushels out the agreement. I will deal with that an acre. Their manures are costing them later. Comalco just could not finance it next to nothing. They are made on the without help. With Reynolds in there spot and are freely available. sitting pat and having a say in what money was put in, the whole project was held up . We then went to New Orleans. There unduly because Reynolds did not want Com­ 1s a ~rench end of that town, but I am alco to get into production. I learned, too, not gomg to telJ hon. members about that that there is a real corner in the market for There is also the American end where w~ aluminium with the various big companies met. people _from Corpus Christi who operate in America. a b1g alumma plant and a large aluminium smelter, which they run on gas. It takes Mr. Lloyd: How do Alcan come into that? 75,000,000 cubic feet of gas a day to gen­ ~rate the power necessary to run the alum­ Mr. EVANS: Alcan are on their own. ma plant and the aluminium smelter. As They are in Canada. I cannot tell the hon. hon. members know-and I will detail this member how they are affected, or whether as I proceed-~eynolds, who own the plant they have more markets than they can pro­ at C~ri?us Chnstl, have bought out British duce for because we did not get up to Alummmm. In Corpus Christi the Govern­ Alcan. We did not have time. We travelled ment have stockpiled, for defence purposes, 32,000 miles while we were over there and hundreds of thousands of tons of bauxite I can assure the Committee that we had no brought from Jamaica. Corpus Christi had spare time. I should think Alcan would be acres and acres of bauxite stockpiled 40 to in a similar position to Alcoa and any of 50 feet high. We went through the factory the other companies operating in America. and we saw the alumina plant working. When They would have their own markets. But it wc got to the smelter, half of it was not appears that Reynolds wanted the British producing. I was told by the manager that market. They got into British Aluminium the part that was not producing would have and did not want any more aluminium put ~ost between £70,000,000 and £80,000,000 to on the market. !nstall. I asked, "Why aren't you produc­ mg?" They said, "We are not producing Then we were flown down and taken ?ecause we cannot sell." They had ingots into the Gulf of Mexico. That is one of m heaps as big as this building. They had the most remarkable places in the world. rolls that would be roiled out into aluminium There are I ,000 oil wells producing in the foil, and I asked, "Where are you sending Gulf of Mexico, right out in the sea. We that?" I was told, "We are sending it to flew out 70 or 80 or 100 miles from the the United Kingdom." Hon. members can mainland and landed on a barge. The rig we_ll. understa~~ why Reynolds bought into on that barge was boring for oil while over Bnt1sh Alummmm. I hold no brief for 200 ft. of water. We were invited to Comalco, but it was not at the wish of stay to dinner. We had flown out in a Comalco. Reynolds bought into British helicopter, and I am not very keen on Aluminium by taking over all the shares of a helicopters. They are too noisy and we church that held an enormous number, worth were given too many instructions on the care £66,000 or £166,000, and they paid much of our Jifebelts before we embarked. Any­ more for them than another company­ way they took us out there safely and Alcan-would pay. In that way they landed on the barge and invited us to dinner. actually got control of British Alum­ We saw a very big rig-one of the biggest in ~nium. British . Aluminium was a partner America. As a matter of fact, they had m Comalco m New Guinea and in struck oil the day before we landed, but Gove in the Northern Territo;y. I can they were boring various zones. They do s~y, t~day-and I have not been right through not get only one flow of oil. In many of t."e p1ece-that Reynolds were determined the wells in America they get 10, 12 and Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1761 up to 15, and they bore right on to get to prongs were reaching out and that America the Permian depth so that they will have must join with the other English-speaking the whole of the structure. Possibly they countries in combating this menace. I said would strike more oil after we left. They to them, "They will beat you just as easily had lunch while were were there. There as they will beat us." Many of the leading were 46 men employed. The place was men came to me afterwards and told me that air-conditioned. Contract caterers provided they entirely agreed with what I had said. for all the men. Very many hotels in I defended Roosevelt. Many of them do not Queensland would not come up to the like Roosevelt. They contend that he put the standard of accommodation provided out fleet at Pearl Harbour so the Japanese would there on the sea. They had hundreds of attack. I said, "I don't care whether he did tons of cement. You must have cement or not. He was anxious to help us retain the when you are boring. They had all this freedom that we desired. If Roosevelt had equipment there. When they find oil-and been allowed to have his way, America would we flew over many bores where they had have been in the war long before she eventu­ found oil-they pipe it back under the water. ally came in, in my opinion. I had the highest They have a machine that will open up regard for him. We cannot afford to be the seabed and cover it over again. isolationists." I found many people who They pipe all their oil back to the mainland. think America is so strong and so impregnable We flew over those wells and it was an that she can go on and on and defend herself astonishing picture to see 1,000 wells pro­ against Russia and China. If anyone is ducing in the Gulf of Mexico, all out in the making a mistake, it is those j)eople. Many water. They looked after us very well over of the leading men I met agreed that we had there. I said to Mr. Clifford Smith the Senior to make a stand. I said, "We realise that the Vice-President of Delhi-Taylor oil Corpora­ destiny of the British Commonwealth is tion "Any company that bores for oil in the­ wrapped up with America's destiny, and we are doing everything we possibly can to let Gulf of Mexico would have to be sure of you come into our country and get a foot­ finding it, because it would take 1,500,000 hold. This will help us, and it will help dollars to set up the rig and landings to you widen the field. We think you should begin boring." Many of these companies look at the defence angle as we are looking are so wealthy and make such substantial at it." profits that spending more money to give them security for years to come means Mr. Davies: Did the Minister learn any­ !lathing .to them. Income tax is very heavy thing about their transport systems? m Amenca, and putting the money back into bores gives the companies considerable Mr. EVANS: Many of them are losing taxation relief. money. Our economy is a great economy compared with theirs. A haircut costs a My general impression is that they are dollar and a half, or about 13s. 3d., and that most efficient in every way; I was really is only if you can keep the black boy away astounde? at what they are doing with their from your boots. As soon as you sit down secondanes. They are even making clothes the black boy is at your boots and some­ ou.t of petro-chemicals. We saw them making one else wants to manicure your fingernails. thmgs out of gas, water, and air, and it They charged me a dollar and a half for a had to be seen to be believed. Going through haircut-and I have very little hair! But the factories, I often used to take my glasses when you are in Rome you have to do as off and wipe them to make sure that I was the Romans do. A pork chop on the menu seeing correctly. It is wonderful to think costs two and a half dollars. they are doing that, because if we do find oil in Queensland-we have found some-- Mr. Davies: Did they show any embar­ rassment at the Iact that they were being Mr. Pizzey: When we do; not if we do. asked to solve our railway problems when 1\'lr. EVANS: We will. I think my colleague they could not solve their own? the Minister for Education and Migration is correct. They are even more confident than Mr. EVANS: That is something outside we are, and we have the strongest independent my realm. Any help that they could give companies in America with interests out here. in any way at all in any sphere they were only too happy to give. I attended many dinners. As a matter of fact, I put on a stone in weight because I I can assure the Committee that my time had to line up to so many dinners that they was fully occupied with oil and gas. We arranged. In all my talks I talked of Queens­ never had much time for pleasure. I am land, and I talked pretty straight. I will not saying that because I am trying to hide tell hon. members some of the things I said. anything. Our itinerary was a tight one. I told them that we appreciated what America We had no aeroplane schedules to follow did for us in the war years, but I also told because they supplied us with a Convair, a them that we were fighting their fight with D.C.3, and a helicopter. I allowed them three divisions long before they came into to arrange the whole itinerary so that they the war. I told them they could not be could show us everything. We had access isolationists any longer, and I told them that, everywhere. If we had had to arrange our although we were only a small nation, we own itinerary it would have taken us three were playing our part. I said that the red months to see what we did. 1762 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. Hughes: Could you tell us anything a very sympathetic reply. We do not often about the extent of the wells in Tulsa and get sympathetic replies from them, but this in the Gulf of Mexico? one was to the effect that they would be prepared to co-operate with us if oil in Mr. EVANS: A top man told me that substantial quantities is found in Queensland. there are enormous oil reserves in the Gulf I saw that that was necessary very early of Mexico. They do not know how far in the piece. It was essential because the the fields extend. Almost everywhere that major companies are getting their oil from they have drilled in the Gulf of Mexico the Middle East and Borneo. They have they have struck oil. From what I am interests in those areas and it could happen told the reserves appear to be almost that, when we found oil, we would not have unlimited, but that is not so in Tulsa. The supplies in Texas are limited. They are pro­ a market. ducing only eight days a month. In Los Mr. Thackeray: You said in your early Angeles they are importing oil. I think statement that some oil has been found; they are doing that to keep the refineries now you are saying that it is most likely working. There is a great deal of unem­ that oil will be found. ployment in America. Their costs are very high. Wherever I went I did not have to Mr. EVANS: I will qualify l.hat; when pay for it as I did in Japan. I always went I say "oil," I mean oil in commercial free. When people come to see you you quantities. have to entertain them. You must be able to have a drink with them in a place where Mr. Thackeray: You say some has been you can talk. You must have a meal with found? them in a private place. A room and a lounge in Dallas or Tulsa would cost £16 Mr. EVANS: It has been. It was found a day in our money. So I advise hon. at Innamincka and Roma. Innamincka was members not to go to America for a holiday. quite a good show, but the Commonwealth insisted that they go right down. The While I was there negotiations started Commonwealth was subsidising on a struc­ about the hard coal for Japan. We did not, tural basis, to get the bores down. The as we intended, go to Alberta. When the drillers really went through three oil beds, Premier told me what had happened we one of which was 15 feet deep. I actually thought that we had got most of the informa­ saw some of the oil. But they went on tion we wanted about oil production, we through that bed and put the hole down cancelled the Alberta trip. My Under to I think, 12,000-odd feet, and when they Secretary worked very hard. I cannot ca'me back to the other bed and lifted the speak too highly of him; he is a casing the water had got in. As I said splendid officer. As a matter of earlier, water will always push oil away, and fact, he worked when he was not well. the volume that got in that well prevented He very often did not take any notice of it from being worked economically. me and attended functions when he was ill. He got all the legislation in the various pro­ When I say there is oil in Australia I mean vinces, as they call them. that oil has been found in many places in Whilst we were there we took down any small amounts-fluorescence in the core­ recommendations they could give us so that but you have to get it in commercial we could analyse them and put them into quantities-that is, a positive flow-before our amendment of the Petroleum Act. When you can harness the well. we do find oil-the Minister for Education I wrote to the Premier at length after says we will, and so do I-I want to be I had been to Corpus Christi because l could careful of that. We got the Alberta laws see very definitely that there was no chance and the Canadian laws. The Canadian laws of selling alumina in America. are fairly weak but the Alberta laws are good and I am satisfied that the information I wanted to get some information on we went to get, and did get, from those the alumina or aluminium market in good people who met and helped us is all Japan. This big coal deal was C?ming that is necessary to enable the Government, on in Japan and I was commumcated when petroleum is found, to bring before with. I say ' now without hesitation that this Chamber an intelligently drawn-up unless the Premier had asked us to amending Bill. As I say, we will find oil. go to Japan or had given us authority Our legislation will then protect not only to go there the position would have been the people who have spent their money most difficult. I think Les Thiess would finding oil, but also the people of Queensland agree that they may not have got the contract. and the State itself. The day I got back from Japan we had Possibly some hon. members do not know discussions immediately, and when the under­ that we have a clause in our petroleum taking was given-the one that I mentioned agreement by which every company has before, and hon. members can understand agreed that if oil is found in Queensland­ that it would be required-the deal was and it will be found-it must be refined to clinched for 115,000 tons. And it will not Australian requirements. That is very stop at that amount; it is a matter of necessary. The Premier wrote a letter to production by Thiess Bros., and I have every the Federal Government and we have received confidence in Thiess Bros. Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1763

Since my return many people have asked low; they can be bought without deposit­ me what price Thiess got for the coal. I that would suit me-and the repayments are know all hon. members will be in accord with easy. Their interest rates are not like the my attitude. I know you will agree. I will hire-purchase interest rates here. They are not state the amount. I was in Japan and usually the ordinary bank-interest rate, had many discussions there, with all the whereas hire-purchase rates here are a flat main people, and I say now very definitely 7 per cent. or 8 per cent., and sometimes that Queensland coal was never mentioned higher. to them. The Federal people were there. I was very interested in the money that Instead of pushing for Australia, they pushed was made available by the parent Govern­ for individual States. As a matter of fact, ment in the United States for road-building. some of the Mitsui group said to me, "We An amount of 2.2 billion dollars was made were always told that your coal was not available in one grant, and 900,000,000 dollars suitable." I have had letters from Sir in another. So that hon. members may Edward Warren and others attacking us for understand it better I have worked it out cutting freights in order to get on the Japanese on a population basis, and my calculations market. I have replied as severely as I can. have shown me that it represents about £15 I am not going to divulge the price that per head of population, whereas we get Thiess is getting and so allow others to about half that. Hon. members know my compete with him. I am not thinking of views on that; we are not getting a fair Thiess; I am thinking of Queensland. deal for our road needs. My Commissioner and all hon. members agree with me on that. Mr. Davies: Who was the leader of that Commonwealth group? Mr. Davies: You will appreciate the greater interest being shown in your speech Mr. EVANS: I do not want to mention by the Opposition than by the Government. names. The New South Wales Minister was Only six Government members are present. there and he was pushing. Mr. EVANS: I cannot help it if they do Mr. Aikens: Not A. A. Calwell? not want to hear me or if they do not want Mr. EVANS: I do not want to mention to learn. They may know too much now. names. But that was the actual position. but I have learned a great deal, and I have learned it as just an average man who has I found also, and this will be of interest come up the hard way. I believe that it is to hon. members, that there was a big market my duty to tell hon. members what I am in Japan for alumina. One big concern had telling them; it is my duty to tell hon. lost ·its smelter in Korea and was prepared members about some of the things I dis­ to build a smelter if alumina was available, covered, because my expenses were met by but that was not my business. All I wanted the State of Queensland. to know was the actual position. They were One of the main reasons for the expendi­ mainly interested in bauxite. Much more will ture of so much money on the building of have to be done here before we can sell roads in the United States is their belief alumina. We have arranged for three parcels in the value of roads for defence purposes. of bauxite to be sent to Japan and one to Our Federal Government have always America. opposed roads as a means of defence, but As hon. members are aware, the Com­ they are wrong. It was proved conclusively missioner of Main Roads accompanied me on during the last war that when we are at part of my overseas trip. We found that war we need roads, and we had to build our itineraries would not coincide so I them. So that we could move from place instructed him to go his own way. The to place we spent hundreds of thousands of Commisisoner for Electricity Supply also pounds, if not millions, on roads, and it made a very comprehensive trip throughout was mostly the Americans who built them. the various areas where there were matters If it happens again-and I hope it never of interest to him. does-we must have access. Apart from defence, we will not get settlement without I am not going to read the full report roads. People are the best measure of on roads by Mr. Barton. It is a comprehen­ defence in any country in the world. I say sive report and he has learnt a great deal that with all the force I have. We are not from his visit overseas. I say very definitely getting a fair deal. We have not had a that, in the office alone the savings that fair deal in the past. Taking away that will be affected from the knowledge he £1,500,000 from us was something that the gained in various places in America will pay parent Government in Australia should not for his trip 20 times over. In my opinion, have done to such a good State as Queens­ they are overdoing their freeways; they are land. We are among the best of people. I building too many of them near cities and do not ask for privileges and I do not ask there is virtually no access to many of them. for something that another State is not get­ As I said earlier, there are very many bad ting; but we should not be the Cinderella roads in America that are not paved or and there should not be discrimination. concreted. Opposition Members interjected. They have a real problem in America with the increased numbers of vehicles coming Mr. EVANS: The Government of hon. onto the roads. The cost of cars is very members opposite were just as bad. 1764 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. Houston: No, they were not. very wrong. I took a great interest in listen­ ing to it. I wondered where they got all Mr. EVANS: Yes, they were, because they their money. pandered to the people. This is not a matter of politics. I never thought about politics I want to commend the Commissioner for overseas. All I thought of was this great Elctricity Supply and the Commissioner of State of ours and doing the best I could in Main Roads on the work they are doing. its interests to find markets and to get people They are both very fine officers. here to help us develop. That is the attitude The trip overseas could well be followed we should all adopt. I am not going to up because a great deal of goodwill was applaud the previous Government, because created. We must sell our wares and tell the they never did any better. If ever hon. people about ourselves and what a great members opposite become the Government country we have and what a great potential again, I hope they will have some influence it has. Going from Los Angeles to Tulsa with the Federal Government. there were two little American hostesses on the plane. They said to me, "Are you Mr. Houston: They will. British?" I said, "Yes, I am British. I come from Australia." They said, "Where is Mr. EVANS: And I hope that the Federal Australia?" They called the other hostess and Government will give us the measure of she said, "I know where it is. It is in justice we are entitled to. Church Christ." I said, "You mean Christ­ church." They did not know where Australia I do not want to take up all the time in was. In the American Press, very little is this debate. I want the Leader of the said about Australia. We have a great Opposition to have an opportunity to talk, country, a great people, and a great future, too, and there is not much time left. but we do need help. However, I want to say a little about the The Premier is in the Chamber now, and work of the Commissioner for Electricity I should like to say that, if the opportunity Supply. He was over there and he travelled occurs, I think other Ministers should be in many areas and learned a great deal. He given the same opportunity as I had; but we was at Corpus Christi, too and acquired a should send plain honest-to-goodness men great deal of knowledge. over there to talk to the American people. I want to stress that the American people I do not expect to go again. were 100 per cent. co-operative. Whatever Mr. Mann: It is no good sending Mr. we asked for was always made available. Morris over there. They took us into their research departments and their experimental departments and wher­ Mr. EVANS: I do not know. I think ever else we wanted to go. When I went to he will do a good job. New Orleans and met Mr. Hill, the chairman Mr. Mann: I think he would ruin it. of the power company there, he said to me, after Mr. Smith had been there, "Anything Mr. EVANS: I do not think so. at all you want from us, write and ask and Dealing with expenditure on main roads, we will give you any information we have." we have released our scheme for the expendi­ I have told the Committee of various features ture of £883,000 on roads in the Channel over there. I found the American people Country; approximately £73,000 worth or very favourably impressed with Australia and work has already been completed by day very favourably impressed with the stability ltabour. We must have jobs released to of our Government. They wanted to come the extent of £5,000,000 to £7,000,000 here and they wanted to invest their money over and above the money that we here. I told them we wanted them to come actually have, because our moneys come here and invest their money here. They are in day by day. We must let the work out the same type of people as we are, and all and it is generally let 10, 12 or 18 months they have to do when they come here is ahead. At the end of October, because of abide by our laws. They have done that the dry weather, the account for the Depart­ right up to date. I have not found any who ment of Main Roads is overdrawn by have come under my department who have £177,000. That had to be done so that not done that, with the exception of one jobs that could not be done in wet weather company, which violated, or endeavoured to could proceed. The money from the Com­ violate the agreement entered into. Only monwealth Aid Fund comes in quarterly, 4,000 dollars were involved, but every com­ and we have money from grants and motor pany in America is trying to force the bank registrations coming in also. I believe, and holding that sum in the trust fund, to pay it. I know some hon. members on this side of That is the feeling of the people of America the Chamber agree, that not enough work towards Australia, and I found the same is being Jet out, but it has not been let out feeling in Japan. because of the heavy call on all funds Mr. Bennett: Did you take any part in the because of the prolonged dry weather. election campaign over there? There is a difference of opinion about whether the Channel country roads should Mr. EVANS: I certainly did not. It would be built. The scheme was approved at the have been out of order. It would have been Roma Cabinet meeting, and it was discussed Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1765 at our conference and it was brought before Mackay district and I know the possibilities, Caucus. I have not heard much opposition but I will not have people exaggerating them. to it in the Chamber. I understand there I know a great deal can be done on the coas: was oppostition from one hon. member but those who say that the first priority opposite, and several hon. members on this should not be the Channel Country roads side of the Chamber have criticised it. They are just plain "cuckoo"-they do not know had plenty of opportunity when it came what they are talking about. One of our before Caucus and when it came before con­ Ministers said that 30,000 head of cattle ference to put up their rainbow schemes in came out of the Channel Country. Let me opposition to this Channel country roads tell the Committee what did come out. I scheme. have not the figures for last year, but the year before last 70,000 head came from Let us see what has been accomplished. I Quilpie, 50,000 head from Winton and was criticised by members of the Opposition 70,000 head from Dajarra. And that was when the Mulligan Highway was built. Since in a dry year! I put a case to Cabinet for our last Cabinet meeting in Townsville before the building of the Channel Country roads. I I went overseas, I have received dozens and am not building them out of the Main Roads dozens of letters from people living there. Trust Fund because to do so I would have to The people who have the prime movers deplete the funds available for other areas. and trailers told us that they were bringing The money is being taken out of Loan Funds. cattle out night and day. l have many letters So far we have not been able to get any that I could show hon. members. I do not assistance from the Commonwealth Govern­ know whether the hon member for Cairns ment. Two weeks after Cabinet agreed on will agree with me when I say that this is the matter the Bourke Conference was called. a new era. It was called only with the object of taking Mr. Wallace: It Is entirely in your trade away from Queensland. Even "blind imagination. Freddie" should wake up to the fact that we cannot afford to lose trade. They got the Mr. EVANS: I can understand the hon. Queensland Graziers' Association linked up member saying that, because he opposed b~t1 I had enough influence with Peter Bell the construction of the Cook Highway and to get him to withdraw and not attend that the other progressive steps that have been conference. Mr. Parkinson got me to taken in the North. brief him when he went down. to Mr. Wallace: You are not telling the truth. the conference. There is no doubt that they want to take our trade away Mr. EVANS: He opposed the construction fwm us. There is no favouritism about this. of the road to Laura to enable the cattle There are no favoured cities or favoured to be brought out. They leave in the morning a:-eas out there. The people who are living and get to the meatworks the same day, out there have lost 200,000 head of cattle whereas previously a big proportion of the in the drought. They must continue to lose cattle were lost. They had to shoe many them while they cannot get them out. It is ?f the!?. If the hon. member did not stay our duty, not as a matter of politics, but m Cmrns so much he would know this. a" decent men, to see that they are given Today people up there are buying better bulls. facilities to get their cattle out in drought The value of their properties has increased. time, and to the market, on wheels. TheY cannot do that at the present time. I went Mr. Wallace interjected. to Betoota. I did not depend on Mr. Hansen. Mr. EVANS: I know this hurts the hon. Officers of the Department of Public Land.> member because he does not know what he recommended the road, the Bureau of is talking about. Agricultural Economics recommended it, as did Mr. Kelly, the chairman. Yet we have The Mulligan Highway is a complete suc­ rainbow-chasers coming along in the dozens cess. I am guided by the people up there. to attack us for giving the Channel Country I have received letters saying that we should roads first priority. This is a major thing build roads into the Gulf Country. I know for Queensland. Playford is building in we should. towards the border to take our trade. The Mr. Bennett: Did you deal with the attacks Bourke people are still trying to get a road that were made during your absence? to take our trade. The people. out there are Mr. EVANS: I am dealing with them now. real heroes. With the drought they have The hon. member does not have to tell me gone through and the conditions under which what to do. they live, they are heroes. In the Channel Country when the channels are flowing the Mr. Bennett interjected. cuttle get flat-footed and they will not travel. Mr. EVANS: I do not want any advice The only way to get them out and hold from the hon. member. My conscience their condition is by road. Otherwise they dictates what I should do. I have been here start off as fats and finish up as poor stores. 14 years and whatever I have thought I In fact, many of them die. have always said. No-one has ever stopped me, and no-one will stop me now. I All we were doing was helping that know that they want the Gulf Country road< isolated part of Queensland, guided by my I know that it is a good fattening area. Thev Director of Development, and the Depart­ talk about cattle-fattening on the coast. ·I ment of Public Lands and the hon. member was one of the biggest cattle-buyers in the for Barcoo will agree with everything I am 1766 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply doing. I went out and had a look for myself. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Is it not a shocking state of affairs that, Mr. Aikens: Do you know that the Federal through the lack of transport, 200,000 head A.L.P. was represented by Whitlam, their of cattle die because they cannot be got out? deputy leader, at the infamous Bourke con­ I was in Betoota in January and cattle ference? He is pledged to the Bourke were dying. Hon. members may have seen scheme. photographs of one of my colleagues holding bones of cattle that had died because of Mr. EVANS: I would not deny that. drought. Only 300 miles away, at Charle­ Mr. Mann: You are just a Liberal stooge. ville, there was grass, feet high, but they could not get the cattle to it. I would not Mr. Aikens: You'd be better telling us be doing my duty if I did not do what I have about Dirty Dora's "sly-grog joint" in Spring done, and nobody could stop me from doing Hill. more if I could get the approval of Cabinet. Yet people are guided by rainbow-chasers The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. and people who tell them something about member for Townsville South keeps up these which they know nothing. Why don't they interruptions I will be obliged to deal with come along here and attack me instead of him. going to the Press? Why can't they come Mr. EVANS: Irrespective of our political here where we can defend ourselves? opinions, we are not worth "two bob" if we I am saying that because this is a pretty do not fight for our State. It should come mean and nasty sort of thing when it first. I know what has happened in regard happens. The Channel Country roads will to Comalco. The New Zealand Prime be built. We cannot do all we want to Minister has made a statement that an do. If we could have obtained money on agreement has been reached with Comalco, the world market we could have saved an and that an aluminium smelter with a enormous amount, but we have not been capacity of 120,000 tons will be built in able to do that. We have had to depend New Zealand. We have no control over on the loan money that has been made avail­ Comalco and the building of a smelter in able on the very tight budget we have. I New Zealand, but under the agreement we am trying to do it as quickly as I can and definitely come in at the end of 15 years. it will take me over five years. Even the hon. member for Ashgrove Mr. Aikens: As I cannot exercise my right turned into a cattle-man. He was briefed to interject, I shall leave the Chamber. by John Murray. I do not care about Mr. EVANS: I have the agreement here. anybody who attacks me in the right place. Hon. members will see from it that at the He said it should not have No. 1 priority. end of 15 years, if power can be supplied Mr. Bennett: He read it. at an economic price-whether Comalco Mr. EVANS: He read it all. He spoke builds a smelter in New Zealand, Timbuctoo, against the figures I have given hon. members Japan, or anywhere else-it has to line up from '!he Bureau of Agricultural Economics, in accordance with the agreement. from the people who live out there, from my Mr. Houston: Can you tell us why own Director of Development and from the Comalco decided to build in New Zealand Lands Office. They are official figures. instead of Queensland? An Opposition Member interjected. Mr. EVANS: I assume it was because Mr. EVANS: I am defending myself. power there is so cheap. Nobody is going to attack me without my defending myself. The Merz and McLellan report as to costs is being investigated. The Coal Board is An Opposition Member interjected. investigating the costs. I am talking of the Mr. EVANS: When I have attacked any­ present position. Even with a big power­ body and have finished with him, I am not station at Callide or Blair Athol we could vindictive. The hon. member knows that. not supply power under .5 pence whereas Immediately it is finished that is the end of the New Zealand price will be about .25d. it. I am taking the opportunity of saying Mr. Houston: About half. that I do not appreciate the actions of these people in making such statements. If they Mr. EVANS: About half, yes. That is get more than they give-well, they have the position at the moment, but progress is jobs they cannot handle as effectively as I being made in the nuclear generation of am handling mine. power. The agreement provides that at the Mr. Mann: Fletcher will never be able to end of 15 years the whole position has to do as good as job as you have done. be reviewed. That was included in the agree­ ment, which was approved of by hon. me.m­ Mr. EVANS: I don't doubt that. bers. Comalco has to build an alumma I do not want to take up all the time but plant, it has to build a township, ~nd it ~as I have to deal with-- to spend a great deal of money m puttmg Mr. Davies: The Minister for Public a channel through a four-mile bar. I have Lands said that the hon. member for Ash­ already explained all these requirements. grove made a good speech. Comalco will have to spend a great deal of Supply (24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1767 money before they get any alumina. I want Mr. EVANS: If I did not tell hon. members to say very definitely now that it will not that, I did not know. I will change what get any bauxite to export to New Zealand. It I said and say I did not know. I am not has to be alumina, and if hon. members read a bad student. Although I am a pretty the agreement they will see that that point is old "bloke," when I have a job to do I try cove~ed very definitely. It will get to to do it. Everyone agreed that we should bauxite. It has to take alumina. allow 50,000 tons to go to Bell Bay. That Mr. Wallace: If you won't allow bauxite was put into the agreement to supersede to be sent to New Zealand, why would you Section 92 of the Commonwealth Consti­ sell it to Japan? tution, because under that section there was nothing to stop them sending it all there. Mr. EVANS: The hon. member for Cairns The agreement specifies that they are allowed comes in where angels fear to tread. to send only a certain amount. I do not Mr. Wallace interjected. want to take up too much time on this subject. Mr. EVANS: He cannot take it. He asks Mr. Houston: I think you will have to a question and then he will not stop talking. agree that when we accepted the agreement, He does not know what he is talking about. there was no mention of this. I mentioned this morning what happened in Japan. I told hon. members about Corpus The CHAIRMAN: Order! Time is very Christi and I also mentioned in detail what limited. was happening in America. There is a market in Japan. Japan has asked us to do Mr. Nickliu: Don't confuse bauxite with what we have done, and so has Comalco, and alumina. They can handle the alumina, but we have agreed. And so would the hon. not the bauxite. member. We have agreed to allow four ship­ Mr. EVANS: Anyone could handle the ments of 10,000 tons each, to three concerns alumina. New Zealand is talking of a smelter in Japan 1;1nd one in America. I am trying to handle 120,000 tons. to. get ev1dence and force development in this field. I know what was going on previ­ Mr. Nicklin: Using all Weipa alumina. ously, and I do not blame Comalco. It was forced into the position in which it finds Mr. EVANS: They must use it. It will !tself.. As I have . said, the fourth shipment cost the company about £80,000,000 to build Is gomg to Amenca. Would anyone object a smelter of that capacity in New Zealand. to that? That estimate is based on figures from all over the world, and no-one can contradict Mr. Nicklin: They are only test samples. me on it. They must build this alumina Mr. EVANS: Yes,• test samples. The hon. plant to keep New Zealand going, and in their member for Cairns would not know anything agreement, which is watertight, as all hon. about that. Western Australia is going to send members will admit, they have to build an bauxite. Contracts have been drawn up. alumina plant with a capacity of from Reynolds, in the split up, have all the Terri­ 350,000 to 370,000 tons. It will be the tory bauxite and want to sell it. Is it not largest alumina plant in the southern hemi­ my job and the Government's job or the sphere. It will carry a township with a job of anyone with any sense, to try to hold population of 4,500 or 5,000 people. Are the Japanese market? Would not that be the we going to stop them from doing that? aim of anyone with any business sense or We cannot stop them from going to New acumen? It is useless to be politically silly or Zealand, but it was stipulated in the agree­ to bellow like a bull, or talk of things with­ ment that when the time comes we will out having any knowledge of them. W~ must put up a case, and it will be decided by try to consolidate that market. There are arbitration. The case will be founded on two types of bauxite, monohydrate and the most economical use of power. If we trihydrate, and the Japanese plant is suitable find a sufficient quantity of gas-and remem­ for treating the bauxite. The existing Bell ber they are running Corpus Christi on gas Bay plant cannot treat our bauxite, and if to the extent of 75,000,000 cubic feet a day­ Japan can treat it and is prepared to buy anything could happen in the development of alumina, we must get the market there. the State, because Comalco must act. I discussed the matter only yesterday with Mr. Houston: When did you find out Comalco and I know their position. They Bell Bay could not handle it? have an asset of £50,000,000 and they must get financial aid. Is anyone in this Chamber Mr. EVANS: I knew long ago. going to do anything that would stop them Mr. Houston: You did not say that when from getting this financial aid? All we the Bill was introduced. want them to do is go ahead with the job, and they intend to go ahead with it. Mr. EV ANS: I did not mention whether Bell Bay could handle it or not, but it cannot I will be able to make a fairly definite handle it. It would have to alter its plant statement tomorrow on what is to be done. very considerably. I cannot make it today because certain things Mr. Houston: You did not tell us that must be completed, and, unlike some people on the previous occasion. in New Zealand, I do not break arrangements 1960-3K 1768 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply or agreements. However, if I have the state­ Mr. EVANS: When I say things about any­ ment tomorrow-and I think I will-I will body I have to get it off my chest; it comes make its contents known. up in my neck and I cannot help it. Mr. Pizzey: Their elections next Saturday In Japan I found goodwill too. They really may have something to do with it. are good customers. They want to trade with us and they are not concerned with the fact Mr. EVANS: I don't know about that. that they buy so much more from us than Mr. Duggan: You people want to play we are buying from them. We want to try politics. to be friends with them. They are recon­ structing and building up generally, and it The CHAIRMAN: Order! would be much better to have them as friends or neutrals than enemies with the position Mr. EVANS: Politics are not being played as it is in the world today. here. I am just explaining the position as it is and I am telling hon. members what Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader I intend to do tomorrow. I have explained of the Opposition) (2.54 p.m.): In my 20-odd what is in the agreement and the Leader years in this Parliament I do not know that of the Opposition knows that what I have I have ever listened to a more unusual speech said is true. I am telling the Committee that by a Minister introducing his Estimates. I no more bauxite will go to New Zealand, must confess that it was a very entertaining and Comalco knows it. The only way they speech. It lasted for almost two hours and can run a smelter in New Zealand-apart might fairly be described, without any malice from getting alumina from another country, on my part, as the Fitzpatrick-Evans travel­ and that would not be economic-is to build logue. We had a description of the places that plant in Weipa to supply it with alumina, he visited. It seems to me that the Premier not bauxite. They must build a plant with has chosen the wrong Minister to go on the a capacity of 350,000 to 370,000 tons. wrong mission at the wrong time because, as Mr. Lloyd: What about their deposits now I gathered, the first hour of his speech ready to go? dealt with his Pacific peregrinations, his Waikiki Walkabout, his Honolulu holiday, his Mr. EVANS: I told the Committee traipse around Tokyo, his dallying in Dallas, about the split-up with Reynolds. That his meandering in Mexico and his loitering is why I recommended to Cabinet that in Los Angeles. He did not like Beverley we allow those samples to go to Japan. We Hills. Probably if he had met Beverley want to get the Japanese market. Japan is Baxter, we should have heard a different story one of our best customers. As sure as I am from him. Most dangerous of all, he was talking here today, Reynolds will try to sell toying with tantalising tlfoughts in Tokyo. It to Japan. Western Australia has an agree­ seemed to me that the major part of his ment with them. They are sending "trials", speech was taken up in that way. as we are. Our bauxite is better than Western Australia's and not as hard to handle. It is Let us examine these Estimates.. At the nearer the coast. But I should be remiss in present stage of our development there is my duty and lacking in business acumen probably no department that can more pro­ if I were not prepared to recommend to foundly affect the economic development of Cabinet what I have done about trial ship­ Queensland than the department of which ments to Japan. How otherwise can we the Minister is in charge. I say to the Minis­ convince Japan? One has only to go there tf'r that we on this side of the Chamber as I did and listen to them and talk to them appreciate his genial, breezy manner and to realise how careful one has to be with his political cunning and skill. He throws negotiations with them. They have to be out a sprat to catch a mackerel occasionally. convinced. They wanted this 10,000 tons­ To take the bite away from the Opposition, chicken-feed! I suppose we have more bauxite he says, "I am not making party political than all the other countries in the world. The capital out of this. Your Government did tests I have seen of the bauxite that we have their work, and we must all sell this State." are just remarkable. When Comalco relin­ He tries to disarm us in that way. I admit quish the areas they are required to release that he is a very energetic Minister, a very in Weipa, we will still have almost as much breezy Minister, a very genial Minister, a bauxite in the State as they will have, plus m&n I like, and with whom I like trading the amount that is left for Alco. punches occasionally across the Chamber. But let us look at the cavalier way in which There are many other matters that I should he dealt with some of these problems. He like to talk about but I want to leave some referred to spending two days in Tokio and time for the Leader of the Opposition. I being entertained and dined by 90 of the must repeat my very great appreciation of the leading men there. assistance I got in America. The American Mr. Ewan interjected. people were great. I will never forget the many courtesies they extended to me and the Mr. DUGGAN: I had my own dinner in way they helped us-the way they arranged Tokio. I am doubtful whether the hon. itineraries so that we could see so much. member will ever be in the position of being Mr. Mann: Next time you go, take the entertained at public expense on a foreign Minister for Public Lands with you. mission; but if he is, I can tell him from Supply [24 NoVEMBER] Supply 1769 my own experience that he will find little Mr. Evans: You want to tell the truth. opportunity at a business men's luncheon to talk about the economic affairs of this State. Mr. DUGGAN: If propaganda were the measuring stick of this Government's Mr. Ewan: I have ambitions. efficiency, of course we would say that they are the most efficient Government we have Mr. DUGGAN: I am afraid they will not ever had. The Minister has talked glibly be realised. The development in Queensland about what he said to men in Japan, men primarily centres round the fantastic mining in Dallas, men in Tulsa, men in the Gulf development in North Queensland. Mt. Isa of Mexico and to other men while they Mines came into being with the guaranteed were disporting themselves on Waikiki backing of a former State Labour Govern­ Beach. Right through he has spoken about ment and without the co-operation of the the Director of Development. What is this then Opposition, which cast all sorts of Director of Development? We see in the doubts on the profitability of Mt. Isa. When Estimates that provision is made for a we began to subsidise freights to Mt. Isa Mines, we were accused of spending the tax­ Director of Northern Development. What payers' money recklessly. But by good man­ does he do? There is one director, one agement, and, fortunately, by testing and engineer and one clerk-typist. Out of 50,000 securing tremendous deposits, and the employ­ or 60,000 people employed by the State, only ment of sufficient capital, it has grown into three ar carrying out this tremendous work one of the great enterprises of this nation. of directing the development of the State? Based primarily on its development, there Mr. Evans interjected. cpens up for Australia a fascinating vista of economic development in the north-west of Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister was dealing Queensland. Following the re-awakening of with the Channel Country a while ago. interest in our mineral resources, many coun­ tries have sent out geologists, geophysicists, Mr. Evans interjected. and people of that type, for whom the Minis­ Mr. DUGGAN: The hon. gentleman is tu said he had no time-- continually interjecting. Let him listen for a Mr. Evans: I said I had no confidence in while. I am sick to death of this constant them. spate of propaganda the Government are putting forth about industries coming here. Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister said that it The Premier talked about a £20,000,000 was only when he went to the laboratories sulphuric acid project at Mt. Morgan. He in Los Angeles that he was convinced of talked about the Grace people coming from the desirability of having these technical men America. What happened about that? working for the benefit of our economy. One Nothing! The Minister has been squealing would expect the Minister, knowing the mag­ because Comalco have indicated to the Prime nitude of the task facing us, to understand Minister of New Zealand that they may start t!Je need for the geologists, geophysicists, an aluminium smelting works in that country. mineralogists, metallurgists, and so on, who He is squealing about that already. The are engaged in this work of exploration. Minister for Labour and Industry talks about Nobody knows what is buried thousands of all sorts of industries coming to Queensland, feet under the crust of the earth. It is only but as these projects collapse all along the by expensive exploration and boring and the use of technical skill that this becomes known line the Government give all sorts of and gradually becomes available. One has plausible excuses. They . cannot blame the only to look at the fantastic fortunes that Labour Government any longer. They can­ have been made and lost on the stock market not explain why Queensland is the only State in mining investments to see this. Conse­ that is losing migrants. But we are con­ quently, it is realised today that it is impos­ stantly getting all this clap-trap about sible to develop these great mineral resources development. in the inaccessible parts of the State unless The Minister has flayed some of his own adequate funds are available and without the members. I commend him for that but it assistance of men with technical skill. is the only commendable thing he has done I do not doubt the Minister's ability to today. He has indicated the division in his sign on the dotted line. As a matter of fact, own ranks. If Mr. Murray had not left the he admitted that he had very little part to Country Party I doubt very much whether he play other than to say he was authorised by would have flayed him. I am glad to see the Government to give certain undertakings. that he does not like the Liberals; I do not But firms such as Comalco, Broken Hill Pty. like them either. He talks about my play­ Coy. Ltd., Mt. Isa Mines Ltd., and others, ing politics! The Minister for Education have been spending hundreds of thousands and Migration comes in and talks about the of pounds-in fact, millions of pounds-over premature announcement by the Prime the last fifteen years in finding out the min­ Minister of New Zealand about the probable eral resources of this country. intention to develop a smelter in New Zea­ land. He said that was playing party Mr. Evans: In the last four years. You politics. The election takes place in a few never had an oil prospecting lease before days' time. What would have been the that. reaction if the announcement had been made Mr. DUGGAN: That is not so. a few days later? Whatever else might be 1770 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply said about that company, it has faith in the interesting travelogue, which I enjoyed basic strength of this country rather than a immensely. The Minister cannot be doing faith in a particular political party. I am very well when he gets up in this Chamber glad to see that evidence. and makes a violent attack on the Minister for Public Lands. He cannot be doing very Mr. Pizzey: Didn't he break an agreement well despite his great party loyalty. He felt with the company? so aggrieved about the fight he had with the Mr. DUGGAN: If he did, it is no business Minister for Public Lands that he has to rise of mine. That is his responsibility, not mine. in this Parliament-- Mr. Pizzey interjected. Mr. Evans: That is because I have more guts than you. Mr. DUGGAN: What is the hon. gentle­ man's objection? He is objecting only Mr. DUGGAN: That is true, as the Minis­ because he thinks the Labour Prime Minister ter's tailor can testify, if it came to a ques-­ of New Zealand is getting some political tion of measuring our respective guts, he advantage out of it. Whatever else he has would win hands down. done, he has been able to get somewhere. Mr. Evans interjected. When the Federal elections come around the Minister for Mines, the Minister for Educa­ Mr. DUGGAN: Now we move from tion and the Treasurer will run around the bauxite and beef in the Channel Country State saying what wonderful men they are at to Weipa. How can one follow the Canberra. They will be saying, "Send them Minister? How do we expect firms like back-keep the Socialists out." Comalco, with millions invested, that send the best brains in the world to inspect Mr. Pizzey: So will you for the Federal these things-in relation to the harbour, Labour Party. they sent a foremost firm of consult­ Mr. DUGGAN: I will be doing it to good ants from Holland, if I remember purpose. I think the business people of Aus­ rightly-whe we get the best brains from tralia, particularly in the isolated parts, will America and England-- know that the Federal Labour Party have Mr. Evans: They did not get consultants done more and are prepared to do more to from America and England; they got Dutch assist them than any coalition Government. consultants. When Lord Casey was in Australia and Senator Spooner was in the North the Mr. DUGGAN: So far as the harbour Minister said they did nothing for us. He was concerned, I said that they had Dutch attacks everyone who gets up on this side consultants. If the Minister listened to me of the Chamber. He himself has said "With for a while instead of trying to think what t~e Mt. Isa railway, for instance, we ~re get­ he is going to say to gain some political tmg a miserable deal from the Common­ advantage, he would hear me. How can wealth Government." The Minister at least we expect any responsible body of business agrees that we get no sympathy from Can­ men to come here and put up propositions berra and criticizes the Commonwealth Gov­ involving millions of pounds and involving ernment for their failure to help financially prospecting avenues of money-raising-the in the development of this State. Minister talks about £40,000,000. Where will Comalco get that from? Why don't we approach these things in a common-sense way. The Minister said today Mr. Evans: Comalco will get it. that he will not let Comalco have any Mr. DUGGAN: Where from? I presume bauxite for New Zealand. Yet he is going they have to get it from shareholders, banks, to let Japan have it because he thinks the insurance companies, discount houses, or Reynolds people will do something in the somebody of that kind, and if we are going way of exports from the Northern Territory. to have this sort of loose talk here, and the Mr. Evans: Don't be silly. Minister saying they won't get anything for New Zealand, that we will send it to Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister said that. Japan-- He said that unless they are allowed to send bauxite to Japan, the Reynolds people will Mr. Evans: Do you want it to go to New do it from the Northern Territory. Zealand? Mr. Evans: I said, "as a test." Mr. DUGGAN: I would prefer it to go to New Zealand than to Japan. Mr. DUGGAN: What does the Minister want a test for? Does he want to send it Mr. Evans: It is not going to Japan. That over and say, "This is good bauxite but you is only a test. cannot have it"? Mr. DUGGAN: It is like the Minister Mr. Evans: You would not know; that is going along in an election campaign and the trouble. saying "the Country Party has a wonderful Mr. DUGGAN: If I tried to follow the policy; we have a wonderful candidate; vote Minister I would have great difficulty in for the Labour Party." knowing what he said today. He gave an Mr. Evans: You have to follow it. Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1771

Mr. DUGGAN: I cannot follow the Mr. DUGGAN: He spent more money at Minister at all. the bar in a week than he would normally I think the business people will view with spend in 6 months. dismay the last statement made by the The CHAffiMAN: Order! If the hon. Minister on a very important matter. member for Roma would refrain from inter­ Mr. Ewan: What do you propose should jecting, I am sure the Leader of the Opposi­ be done? tion would be willing to get back to the subject. Mr. DUGGAN: I think we should have a more lucid explanation of what is likely to be Mr. DUGGAN: I think that this matter done rather than a discourse-- has been dealt with in a very loose way. We have heard much loose talk about the Mr. Ewan: We should like to hear your expenditure on roads in the Channel Country. views. and I have not expressed any opposition to it, but I think Government members should Mr. DUGGAN: If I had the time-if the stop making all these claims and all this poli­ hon. member will arrange with the Speaker or tical propaganda. I express no opposition to the Premier to allow me the same time as the scheme as long as the money we spend the Minister had this morning-! will tell on development is spent wisely. the hon. member what are our views. We are for Queensland, and for Australia. The Minister spoke of the A.L.P. attitude Government Members interjected. at the Bourke conferences. Mr. DUGGAN: On top of that, we have Mr. Evans: I never mentioned that. all this talk about what has happened in Mr. DUGGAN: You agreed with the hon. the last four years. I can tell hon. members member for Townsville South, in an effort opposite, if they think these people have no to discredit the Labour Party. confidence in the Labour Party, that I was personally present at quite a few of the dis­ I have a statement here from people in cussions in the initial stages, in relation to the Channel Country. Naturally if I lived this company coming here, and there was no there, apart from the roads being an desire on their part to withdraw their invest­ economic consideration for the shifting of ment of large sums of money in Queensland cattle, I would want to see a bitumen road because the Labour Party was in power. to serve my area. I do not know what the Comalco has shown confidence in New Zea­ roads would cost, but I do not suppose they land, and that in itself shows it is not con­ could be built at less than £20,000 a mile, cerned with party politics. As Leader of the taking into account the bridges and culverts Parliamentary Labour Party I do not, when that will have to be constructed. If much discussing Consolidated Zinc, Comalco or any of the area is to be served by roads, the other company, want to introduce the element building of them will cost a great deal of of party politics. I know Mr. Mawby, the money. The cost of it will depend very managing director, very well, and if there largely on the number and length of the is a better Australian in regard to the devel­ roads to be built. It is all very well to talk opment of this country I have yet to meet about the great need to develop this part him. of the State. I agree that it should be Mr. Evans: I agree with you. developed, but has there been an economic appraisal of the scheme, having regard to Mr. DUGGAN: He is a very fine man. the annual turn-off of fat cattle? The best I do not want to see his name or his com­ turn-off has been 80,000 fats a year. pany's name linked with any part disputations. Mr. Evans: No. Mr. Ewan: When you were present at Mr. DUGGAN: That is the average. these discussions-- Mr. Evans: No. Mr. DUGGAN: The interjector keeps Mr. DUGGAN: I meant to say that 80,000 speaking about the development of these was the average, not the highest. areas, but what has he done? He sold out at a great profit and then came down to Mr. Evans: Don't be silly. Brisbane to live the life of a retired gentle­ man. He then tries to tell us how we Mr. DUGGAN: Is that not the average? should develop this country. This is the Mr. Evans: They get 70,000 head from man who, when the former Minister for Quilpie. Public Lands got into trouble and the pres­ ent Minister was appointed, went around Mr. DUGGAN: They do not all come saying, "It is a terrible thing that Alf has from the Channel Country. In any case the got into this trouble. What about giving interest and amortisation of cost have to be me your vote?" taken into account before it can be seen whether the scheme is economic. I do not Mr. Ewan: Don't tell lies. think these matters should be used purely Mr. DUGGAN: That is correct. for the purpose of political propaganda. Mr. Ewan: Don't tell lies. Mr. Evans: What will the roads cost? 1772 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. DUGGAN: That will depend on the Mr. Ewan: You can't bluff me with your length of the roads to be built. Naturally, verbiage. if full benefit is to be obtained from the scheme a great milage of roads will have to Mr. DUGGAN: If I have done nothing be built, and there is no guarantee that else, at least I have penetrated the skins Queensland would finish up getting all the fat of these people. I have never heard them cattle. I have here a copy of a telegram so upset. Then hon. member for Roma from Sir Thomas Playford, not to me, but is squealing now. It reminds me that if to the gentleman to whom it was addressed, you go to a pig-sty and throw a stone in in which Sir Thomas Playford said, amongst you can safely bet that the pig that squeals other things- is the pig that has been hit. "Current road works are planned to I regret very much that shortage of time keep Birdsville track open to motor traffic precludes me from discussing all the matters stop under Industries Assistance Act Gov­ that I wanted to discuss. I wanted to refer ernment may guarantee overdraft of to the report of the Commissioner for approved industries stop. No specified Electricity Supply, Mr. Neil Smith, who is limits stop. Inland meat works could one of our most progressive officers. He apply for this assistance stop. Assistance took over from Mr. Sam Cochran, who also may also be given in construction of fac­ tories and houses for employees stop. was a brilliant man. Some very convincing Country abattoir may sell meat in Adelaide statements have been made by Mr. Smith metropolitan area up to fifty per cent. of about the electrical development of this its kill by weight not exceeding one-seventh State. I hope that on the Appropriation of total meat sold in Adelaide. Bill I may be able to deal with those matters. Signed Playford Premier." I appreciate the Minister's frankness, but I would prefer him to get down to a factual Mr. Evans: Whom it is to? basis on these matters and tell us what he Mr. DUGGAN: Never mind whom it is proposes to do instead of making general to; it is not to me. statements about what he has done himself, which amounts to political propaganda. The Mr. Evans: It is to you. Minister should tell us the plain facts so that we may know what is in his mind. Mr. DUGGAN: No, it is not to me at all. A Government Member: No wonder your Mr. Evans: You said it was. Government fell! No wonder they split up! Mr. DUGGAN: No, it was not sent to Mr. DUGGAN: We lived for 40 years me at all. Is the Minister disputing that with only one split. This Government have the telegram was sent by Premier Playford? been in office for only four years but they have had more splits in their sides in that Mr. Evans: No, I am not. period than we had in 40. Mr. DUGGAN: Why doesn't the Minister At the rate the Government are going, accept the implications? the division in their ranks will grow at a faster rate than they would wish. Probably Mr. Evans: Tell us whom it is addressed to. I object to this. Tell us whom it is to. that is the reason the Treasurer gave a barbecue feast for Government Members Mr. DUGGAN: No, I will not tell the this week in an effort to heal the breach. Minister. He served the most succulent steaks in Brisbane and from the photographs that Mr. Evans: It is to you. appeared in "The Courier-Mail" he must have arranged for the Minister for "Tourism" Mr. DUGGAN: The Minister has not seen to bring back from his Honolulu trip the it, but he implies that he knows all about flamboyant aprons and shirts that were worn it. He is not satisfied when I tell him it by his guests. is not addressed to me. Even if it were In conclusion, I say to the Minister that to me, it would not make any difference. he holds a very important portfolio and he I am concerned about the country centres. has some very difficult problems on his In New South Wales they have something "plate" at present. I only hope he will like 25 inland killing centres. I will not bring to bear on these things a judicious debate the merits or the demerits of this mind and that he will forget political propa­ matter now, but the Government certainly have done nothing for Roma. ganda. If he does that, we may get some­ where. Mr. Ewan: We opened Roma when you people wouldn't. Mr. TOOTH (Ashgrove) (3.19 p.m.): As the tumult and the shouting dies I rise Mr. DUGGAN: Don't talk such nonsense. to speak briefly to this motion. I should like to congratulate the Minister on the Mr. Ewan: You can't bluff me. clear and lucid way in which ]le has out­ The CHAIRMAN: Order. lined many of the problems that confront him. Mr. DUGGAN: Why can't the hon. mem­ An Opposition Member: You are trying to ber be satisfied. defend yourself now. Supply [24 NOVEMBER) Supply 1773

Mr. TOOTH: I intend to defend myself. Mr. TOOTH: Sandfly bites on me, too, possibly. I feel that I have a right to be The first thing I should like to refer to is interested in such subjects. Any matter of the speech that I made during the discussion general policy decided on by the Government on the Estimates of the Department of Public parties will have my comple~e suppo_rt; That Lands and Irrigation. In no sense was my has been one of the principles gmdmg all speech an attack on the Minister or his hon. members on this side of the Chamber. administration. It was certainly not made, in the Minister's absence, in the sense of Mr. Aikens: What about the meeting the deliberately picking the time. Country Party held the other day'? They wouldn't let you in. Opposition Members interjected. Mr. TOOTH: I know nothing about that. Mr. TOOTH: If opposition members will I suggest that that does not preclude hon. let me finish, I should like to explain that members on this side of the Chamber from when I spoke on the Estimates of the Depart­ making inquiries about such m~t~ers and ment of Public Lands and Irrigation nothing making them publicly. If the Mmtster and was further from my mind than the fact that hon. members generally would do me the the Minister was absent. Further, let me say honour of readin" by earlier speech carefully, that I am in no way responsible for the fact they would find that at no stage di~ I suggest that the Land Estimates came before the that I was an authority on thrs ma!ter. Committee during the absence of the hon. Indeed, I disclaimed any such suggestiOn. the Minister for Development. I want to Indeed the hon. member for Bundaberg make reference to the suggestion that it is actuall~ accused me of sitting on the fence something of an improper action for a and asked, "Why don't you come down on one metropolitan member to be interested in side or the other?" I said, "I do not propose matters outside the metropolitan area. I to do that because I do not claim expert know­ deprecate that suggestion very strongly ledge." But there are sufficient groun~s ~or indeed. I think members of Parliament are us to have some sort of, shall we say, weighmg sent here by the electors to concern them­ of the various pros and cons of the two selves with the affairs of Queensland, and schemes before us. that is what I propose to do. I have here a book from the Parliamentary Mr. Houston interjected. Library, entitled, "The Cattle Country," The CHAIRMAN: Order! I point out to printed this year in Sydney. the hon. member for Bulimba that he has Mr. Houston: Are you going to read it? interjected three times in three minutes and that consistent interjections amount to Mr. TOOTH: I am not going to read it interruption and will not be permitted. all. It is a series of contributio~s fr~m various authorities. The section dealing With Mr. TOOTH: The problem of development the Channel country was written by_ W .. B. is a State-wide one and it would be a very Cameron, who, judging from the bnef ~ro­ poor show if people living in the metropolis graphical note, is a man of some aut~10nty. and those representing them were not inter­ Writing of the Channel Country, he satd- ested in any other place than Queen Street and its environs. I suggest that all hon. "Whilst it is my earnest ambition to members should be happy to see metropolitan improve the usefulness of this area and members interested in the broad question of perhaps make sol?e sug15estions towards Queensland's development. the solution of Its vaned problems, I think it only right that readers should Mr. Aikens: What about the hon. member have a proper conception o~ the. co~ntry, for Maryborough being interested in the and so refrain from endowmg It wtth a Burdekin? He would not know where it was. greater importance than is its due." Mr. TOOTH: I do not agree. I should Mr. Rae: That is only his view. think the hon. member for Maryborough would probably have quite a comprehensive Mr. TOOTH: It may be, but I am point­ knowledge of matters affecting the Burdekin. ing out that these contributions are worthy of some consideration. He goes on- Mr. Aikens: There you are-two former "This huge expanse, approximately 15% school teachers sticking together! of Queensland's total, carries about 398,700 Mr. TOOTH: I want, furthermore, to refer cattle, or less than 8% of the ayerage to the suggestion that I know nothing of the number of beef cattle depastured m the West. I venture to say that I saw the western State." country sooner, and for a !onger period, than Further down, he says- most hon. members. I ltved there for 30 "If the carrying capacity could be years. I am a native of the West-the area trebled, and this seems more than. can be that the hon. member for Gregory comes expected, it stiJJ would only contam 22% from. of the State's beef herds; furthermore, Mr. Aikens: We can still see the fly spots the recent cycle of good flood-years can­ on you. not be taken as an average." 1774 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

He goes on to say- VOTES PASSED UNDER STANDING ORDER No. 307 AND SESSIONAL ORDER "In contrast, we have the lean periods such as 1899-1906, 1919-1922, 1925-1930, At 3.30 p.m., under Standing Order No. when cattle numbers on the Cooper alone 307 and Sessional Order agreed to by the fell by 71,000 head and some herds were House on 13 October, the questions for the almost wiped out. 1932-1936 were also following Votes were put by the Chairman disastrous." and agreed to:- £ s. d. Honourable Members interjected. Departments of Develop­ The CHAffiMAN: Order! ment and Mines, Main Roads, and Elec- Mr. TOOTH: He says- tricity-Chief Office 234,696 0 0 "In contrast--" Balance of Departments (Consolidated Revenue, Mr. Uoyd interjected. Trust and Special Funds and Loan Fund Mr. TOOTH: I hope hon. members Account) 22,402,370 0 0 opposite do not read more into this than they are justified in reading into it. The great Department of Labour difference between us and hon. members on and Industry 6,117,239 0 0 the other side of the Chamber is that their Department of Justice 1,893,713 0 0 organisation is so stiff and regimented that it would smash into a million pieces if one Departments of Agricul- ture and Stock and of them did what I am doing. We on this 2,205,080 0 0 side of the Chamber are reasonable people. Forestry Department of Educa- Mr. Evans: We can agree to disagree. tion 17,952,700 0 0 Mr. TOOTH: Mr. Cameron goes on to say- Department of Railways 37,891,200 0 0 Department of Trans- "Now, taking the 57-year period, i.e., 0 1890-1946, we find that, in 22 years, the port 281,085 0 run-off was useless from an irrigation point Trust and Special Funds of view, nine more years were under 1 Estimates-Balance of million feet and of little use, 13 gauged Estimates 9,691,955 0 0 between 1 and 2 million, 13 between 2 Loan Fund Account and 4, and 5 over 4 million: only 18 big Estimates-Balance of floods in 57 years." Estimates 6,000,000 0 0 Mr. Evans: Would that be a reason for Supplementary Esti- not building roads? mates (Consolidated Revenue), 1959-1960 2,022,312 7 4 Mr. TOOTH: No, but it is a reason for weighing the Channel Country proposition Supplementary Trust and Special Funds Esti- against other propositions that are under con­ 1,893,757 17 4 sideration at present. mates, 1959-1960 Supplementary Loan I wish to make one further observation. Fund Estimates, 1959- The Minister suggested that I had been 1960 1,181,516 11 10 briefed by Mr. John Murray, M.P. I assure him with the greatest sincerity that that is Vote on Account, 1961- not correct. I have not seen or spoken to 1962 35,000,000 0 0 Mr. Murray for some months. SEVENTEENTH ALLOTTED DAY-RECEPTION .Mr. Hanlon: Who did brief you? OF RESOLUTIONS Mr. TOOTH: I do not mind telling the Resolutions reported and, on motion of hon. member who briefed me. The brief that Mr. Hiley, received. I have is from the Rural Committee of the ADOPTION OF RESOLUTIONS Liberal Party. It is all open and above­ board. I am sure the Minister would agree The Resolutions being taken as read­ that on a number of occasions he has had reason to respect the advice of the Rural Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth-Treasurer Committee of the Liberal Party. The situa­ and Minister for Housing): I move­ tion is that I exercised what I thought were "That the Resolutions be now agreed to." my rights-and what I am sure the Minister Hon. members indicating a desire to discuss will agree are my rights-to discuss these certain Resolutions- matters on the floor of the Chamber. I Resolution !-Legislative Assembly- offer to the Minister an assurance of my complete loyalty and support in any decision Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (3.37 agreed to by the joint Government parties. p.m.): I called "Not formal" to Resolution 1 This is purely an exercise of my rights of because sub-clause (d) of that Resolution investigation and thought on any matter of deals with Legislative Assembly, and I have public interest. a few remarks to make on that point. Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1775

This Parliament, we have been frequently radio network, so that two speakers from told by members of the Government and this Parliament could give highlights of State members of the Opposition, is a democratic Parliament for the preceding week. But Parliament in which every member is sup­ instead of the Australian Broadcasting Com­ posed-and I emphasise the word "supposed" mission doing what they did with the -to have the same rights, privileges and churches, in the matter of religious broad­ concessions. That is a very beautiful theory, casts, when they said, "We will give but in the 17 years that I have been here so much time to this particular church I have found, unfortunately, that it does not and so much time to another particular work out in practice. I am not going to give church," and so on, right down the list of the House a recapitulation of all the snide, churches until they all got a fair and reason­ dirty little indignities to which I have been able amount of radio coverage, the Australian subjected since I became a member of this Broadcasting Commission, in perhaps the Parliament, simply because I have not most undemocratic and the most gutless way belonged either to the Government party or anything has ever been done-- the official Opposition party. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have been wait­ An Opposition Member: Is that a reflec­ ing for the hon. member to tie his remarks tion-- about the Australian Broadcasting Commis­ Mr. AIKENS: If you would shut up you sion to the Resolution before the House. would keep out of a lot of trouble. Mr. AIKENS: My word, I will! Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Mr. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. member to Mr. AIKENS: If we are going to be a get back to the subject. democratic Parliament as we claim to be, then let us place every member of this House Mr. AIKENS: I am getting right on to it. on the same footing. Don't, as I said the I know it is a touchy point with some people. other day with regard to the actions of the The Australian Broadcasting Commission Townsville City Council, make fish of one and said, "We will give 15 minutes per week for flesh of another. Don't let either the Leader a broadcast of highlights of State Parliament, of the Government or the Leader of the but we will give that time not to the members Opposition, or anyone else, be a party to of the State Parliament; we will give half the making fish of one and flesh of another. 15 minutes to the Leader of the Government, whoever he may be, and half to the Leader of I am going to return now to something that the Opposition, whoever he may be." So we I raised some years ago and that was treated find every Monday night that the people of then, not with the serious consideration that Queensland who want to listen to what goes it merited, but, I would say, with intemperate on in this Parliament have to listen first of all flippancy. to a member of the Government for 7t The proceedings of this Parliament are not minutes-a member of the Government broadcast and they are certainly not televised. selected by the Premier-and then they have It would be very, very interesting if they to listen for another 7t minutes to an A.L.P. were broadcast or televised because, as I have member selected by the Leader of the frequently said, if we could get a television Opposition. The people of Queensland do not session of this Parliament, many members of get the highlights of Parliament during the it would not be returned at the next election. preceding week; all they get is a straight-out, I certainly would; don't make any mistake blatant, propaganda splurge from either the about that. There is nothing secret about member of the Government or the member of my dealings with the people, either in this the official Opposition who happens to make Parliament or outside it. But, because the the broadcast. Australian Broadcasting Commission is con­ If this were a democratic Parliament-and trolled by the Federal Government and I think you might interest yourself in this because the Australian Broadcasting Com­ matter, Mr. Speaker, in order to protect the mission follows the line of Tallyrand and rights of the political minorities; I have plays at keeping alive by pandering to the frequently said that the first step to totalitar­ A.L.P. on the one hand and the Liberal­ ianism is the suppression of political minorit­ Country Party on the other, it does give radio ies-you would see to it, Mr. Speaker, that coverage to the proceedings in the Federal the seven hon. members of this House who Parliament. I understand also that it will are deliberately excluded from speaking on give a television coverage of proceedings in the highlights of State Parliament over the Federal Parliament in the near future. How­ A.B.C. network were given an opportunity to ever, the proceedings in this Parliament have do so, even if they were given that oppor­ no radio coverage by the Australian Broad­ tunity only once a year. The four members of casting Commission. In order to more or the Q.L.P., I understand, and the three less "square off" for the fact that they had members from "Uncle Tom's Cabin" are not given radio coverage to the whole of the debarred from speaking over the A.B.C. proceedings in this Parliament, the Australian network on Monday afternoon owing to this Broadcasting Commission came forward shocking agreement entered into between some years ago with a proposal that they Boyer of the A.B.C. and the Premier on one make 15 minutes available every Monday hand, and Boyer and the Leader of the afternoon, from I think, 6.30 p.m. on its Opposition on the other hand. 1776 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

We are told that this is a democratic and privileges, and having the expectation Parliament; we are told that every hon. of receiving the same treatment from the member has equal opportunities, equal con­ Premier and the Leader of the Opposition, cessions and equal privileges. Where do these here is another instance: yesterday we saw privileges and concessions come in, having something that will happen frequently regard to the A.B.C. broadcast on Monday between now and the end of this Parliament. afternoon? All I ask is that an opportunity I have seen it happen here frequently in the be given to the seven hon. members I have years that I have been here, whether the mentioned, four of the Q.L.P. and three from Premier was in his present position, or, as he "Uncle Tom's Cabin," to participate in that was for so many years, Leader of the Opposi­ broadcast. I have written to Sir Richard tion. Yesterday this House met to discuss Boyer, Mr. Davidson, the Postmaster-General, business, and according to the Business and the Rt. Hon. R. G. Menzies on this Sheet, as is the custom, we were to discuss shocking matter. They all wrote and said they legislation till 12 noon. Many of us came were sympathetic and that there was no prepared to discuss legislation till 12, but of objection to the seven members I have men­ course the legislative rush got a bit hasty tioned speaking in that Monday afternoon and perhaps we put through more Bills than session, provided that either the Premier or was expected. Obviously the Premier saw the Leader of the Opposition gave us some that we were getting too far down the list of the time allotted to them. I said to Boyer, of Bills. I only wish some of the real hard­ the Prime Minister, and the Postmaster­ core Labourites-some of those people who General, "This time belongs to the A.B.C. It have supported Labour all their lives, and does not belong to the Premier and it does always vote for Labour Party politicians, and not belong to the Leader of the Opposition." show such loyalty to them-could have seen Why should I have to go cap in hand to the touching little scene that we witnessed either the Premier or the Leader of the yesterday, and that we will see many times Opposition to get something that belongs to again. The Premier walked across the floor each and every member of the Queensland of the House, sat down in the middle of the Parliament? Why does not the controlling front Opposition bench, put his arm along body, the Australian Broadcasting Commis­ the back of the bench and around the back sion, see that our rights are protected, as of Mr. Duggan's shoulder. They put their neither the Premier nor the Leader of the heads together like Darby and Joan and had Opposition are prepared to practise the a nice little "natter" between them, and they democracy that they so frequently and reached what I have frequently described as spuriously preach? a shirt-tail agreement that besmirches the I know that I am probably wasting my dignity and customs of this House. Only time making these remarks. I remember that the Premier and Mr. Duggan agree. It does on one occasion when the Labour Party not matter two hoots in Hades about the four was the Government I applied to the then members of the Q.L.P., and it does not Premier, the late Hon. E. M. Hanlon, for matters two hoots in Hades or a roasted some of his time. He wrote back and said peanut about the three members of "Uncle that as I voted more often for the Tories Tom's Cabin." We were here, as the Busi­ than for Labour I should get broadcasting ness Sheet stated to deal with legislation time from the Tories. So I made application right up till 12 noon, but at about a quarter to the present Premier, who was then the to 12, lo and behold we went straight from Leader of the Opposition. I have all the legislation on to the Estimates because of correspondence down in "Uncle Tom's the Premier's little arm-in-arm fireside chat Cabin." He wrote back and said that as I with Duggan. I was almost broken up with vot·td more often for the Labour Party than the deep sentiment of the little scene that I for his party I should approach the Labour saw there. I wish some of the A.L.P. boys P;;;rty and try to get broadcasting time from from South Townsville could have seen it; them. I fell between two stools; I did not I wish some of the good old Labour stalwarts get any broadcasting time at all, and I still from the South Side could have seen Duggan have not got it. sitting there with the Premier's arm round Mr. Ramsden: That will teach you to sit his shoulder. on the fence. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am getting a little impatient with the hon. member. I Mr. AIKENS: The hon. member has sat ask him to get on and discuss the Resolution, on the fence for so long that the iron has and discuss it properly. In addition, he is entered his soul. referring constantly to the Leader of the I repeat that seven members of this Opposition as "Duggan". He should refer House find themselves deliberately penalised. to him by his proper title, not as "Duggan", If I may once again use this expression, and I ask him to do so. seven members of this House are treated like mangy dogs by the Australian Broad­ Mr. AIKENS: I stand rebuked. casting Commission, working in the closest That is what goes on now. We came collaboration with the Premier and the here to discuss legislation until 12 o'clock. Leader of the Opposition. I think it would have been only right for While I am talking about every member of the Premier or the Leader of the Opposition, this House having exactly the same rights or someone else, to make an announcement Supply (24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1777 that, as the result of a shirt-tail agreement We have ample evidence o~ the work th<:t between the Premier and the Leader of is being done in the commumty by t~e yan­ the Opposition, we were not going to con­ ous organisations-the church orgamsati~ns, tinue with legislation until 12 o'clock because the C.W.A. and many voluntary orgamsa­ it did not suit the Government to carry on tions who are working in the field of the with introducing any more measures, so underprivileged, in the field of the a~ed we had to go on to Estimates about 15 and in the field of orphans and the like. minutes earlier. So I refer to the annual grant that is made each year for work in those very worth-while I will not deal at length with the gratuitous causes-the Alexandra Homes where we will insult offered to us by the Minister for see three at Bardon and two at Aspley-the Justice because, frankly, I have unfortunately very best type of orphanage that can be reached the stage where I expect very little built to cater for our young people who have better from him. But, as I said, a booklet lost the love of their mother and father. was issued the other day-I think it was a In these organisations, we find small units model Companies Bill-and was given to with foster-parents caring for about 12 young many Government members, including many people in an endeavour to get them as back-bench members of the Government who close as possible to the atmosphere of home would not know what the heck it was all life. C.W.A. hostels cater for students and about in any case, and it was given to mem­ waiting mothers, and they also render a won­ bers of the A.L.P. and to members of the derful service. More recently, the Roman Q.L.P., but no copy of it ever came down Catholic church has established a Boys' Town to "Uncle Tom's Cabin," the room occupied at Beaudesert, and the Congr~gational church by the hon. member for Redcliffe, the hon. has undertaken an operatiOn known as member for Burdekin and me. All I ask is "Happy Boys" with the idea of furthering that. while I am a member of this Parlia­ the work of the Marsden Home at Kallangur. ment. I be treated with the same courtesy The work of the churches in connection with and with the same dignity and with the same aged persons has also been assisted by t~e consideration as I always extend to others. Department of Health and Home Affairs Government Members interjected. through the trust funds. Mr. AIKENS: I say to the hon. members I also wish to speak about the work of who are guffawing over on my left that if the Queensland Spastic Children's Welfare they go looking for a fight and get it they League, with which I am personally ass<;>ci­ cannot blame me any more than anyone ated, and to refer particularly to a project can blame you, Mr. Speaker, if he has a that is urgently needed for the benefit of fight with you and loses. Anyone who has spastic people in our community. Supported a fight with you invariably does lose, of by a 24-hour telethon on Channel 7 on course, but in that case you should be the Christmas Day, we hope to establish a fund, last person to be blamed. When they start which the Government have agreed to sub­ to guffaw about some of the repartee I sidise on the usual basis of £1,000 a. bed, have indulged in, do not blame me for that. to build a residential home at Figtree They have themselves to blame for pitching Pocket, where we have a beautiful site, to for it. All I say is that, while I am a cater for a 60-bed unit. This will enable member of this House, I want no more con­ sideration than is given to every other hon. spastic people, especially adults who have member, but at least I want as much, and, lost their parents, to live i.n s?me degree of by the gods that made me, I will see that dignity for the rest of their hves. Many of I get it. them can be made productive, and many of those who will live in this home will be Resolution !-Legislative Assembly­ able to take their places in the normal field agreed to. of employment within the limit of their dis­ Resolutions 2 and 3 agreed to. abilities. In the past, these people who ha':e Resolution 4-Department of Health and been left as orphans, no matte; what their Home Affairs- age may be, were absolutely mcapable of taking care of themselves because they suf­ Mr. DEWAR (Wavell) (3.54 p.m.): I want fered from cerebral palsy, which is the to draw attention to an aspect of Govern­ greatest multiple crippler the world .knows. ment action that sometimes is not readily I inform the House that, accordmg to known and that is, in my opinion, a com­ American statistics, every 53 minutes so~e­ munity effort to help those who need help so where in the world a child is born suffenf!g much. It calls for commendation of all the from cerebral palsy, or spastici!Y· . It. is a Governments of the State over the years who major problem, because, as I smd, It Is the have, during their terms of office, carried out a worth-while service. I refer to that greatest multiple crippler known to .. tJle type of Government action that recognises world of science. Even though facilities the work of voluntary organisations in the have been set up in the last 10 years by the community and assists them by way of sub­ Queensland Spastic Children's Welfare League sidy, either on the funds they raise or on in this city and in Maryborough, Rockhamp­ the outlay of money for capital equipment ton Redcliffe and on the South Coast, and in the building of suitable types of homes, will be set ~P in Toowoomba in ~he near in which case the subsidy is on a specific future there still remains that penod that basis. is such a worry in the minds of mothers 1778 Supply [ASSEMBLY] who have spastic children-"What will hap­ of the travel talk of the Minister for Develop­ pen to my child when I am gone and the men, Mines, Main Roads and Electricity. child's father has gone?" They showed a great deal of interest in his speech after lunch. But there is one Dr. Noble: The Children's Workshop has matter I should like to mention to the done a wonderful job. Minister for Health and Home Affairs. It has come to my notice that his department Mr. DEWAR: I will refer to that in a has been subsidising private hospitals. I moment. That thought is ever-present in the take it that that is correct. minds of the parents of those children. Mother-love is the most wonderful thing in Dr. Noble: What sort of private hospitals? the world, and whether a child is born spastic, sub-normal, crippled, or normal, that Mr. WALSH: One at Gatton, for example. love remains the same. In fact, I believe Dr. Noble: They are a community effort. that a mother's love for a spastic child, a crippled child, or a sub-normal child, is even Mr. WALSH: I can quite understand it greater than the love of a mother for an in the case of hospitals that may be run average child, because the mother knows by on a co-operative basis, say in Pittsworth instinct that that child has a greater need or in the Downs area. But if the position for the love and care she can give it. As has been misrepresented to me, all I want the mother gets older, she knows the day to do at this stage is to bring the matter will come when she will pass on, and the before the House and have it cleared up. question in her mind is, "What will happen Dr. Noble: You referred to Gatton. to my child when I die?" Mr. WALSH: I may have the wrong name, We have seen in the past that the sub­ but the point I make is that in respect of a normal, the spastics and those suffering from hospital that cost about £4,500 the Govern­ disabilities rendering them completely ment would be paying something in the incapable of looking after themselves have nature of £1,500 a year in subsidy. If had to finish their days in institutions-some Gatton is not the place I shall get the name in Eventide homes and some in mental and give it to the Minister. If it is a private homes. With the Government support by hospital not run on the community basis, making available half the capital cost of the and there are in effect, say, dividends to be project-in the vicinity of £120,000-and paid out on the invested capital, I think that by the good graces of the public who have is a matter to which we are entitled to take rallied at all times to support charitable strong objection. causes, we hope, following our appeal on Christmas Day, to be in a position shortly Dr. Noble: It does not exist. after Christn-l'Ct.S to build a hon1e at rigtree Pocket and so remove the nagging problem Mr. WALSH: I am glad to have the from the minds of many mothers and fathers Minister's assurance. That is the only point who are worrying about what will happen I am interested in in this debate. If the to their children when they die. Minister gives me his assurance I shall be satisfied unless I get further evidence to the The Minister referred to the closed work­ contrary. shop at New Farm where young spastic boys and girls are being trained to take Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Yeronga-Minister their place in the community. Great work for Health and Home Affairs) (4.5 p.m.): has been done in this field since the estab­ Certain hospitals in Queensland are com­ lishment of the Welfare League about 10 munity hospitals. There is one at Goomeri, years ago. The closed workshop is manu­ run by the Friendly Society, one at Clifton, facturing goods for distribution through the another at Crows Nest, and another at normal channels. It gives these people an Bundaberg. Altogether there are about eight opportunity to feel that they are not a burden in the State. on the community, that they are able to help Mr. Low: There is one at Cooroy, and pay their own way. Any work that is done we are very proud of it. in this field is worthwhile. I sincerely con­ gratulate the Government for carrying on Dr. NOBLE: Yes. They are run on a the good work that was started in the past. completely non-profit basis. If they did not They have always been ready to heed the exist in these very small towns there would call of people who are prepared to work for be a demand on the Government to build those in the community who need help­ hospitals in these areas. When we took the under-privileged, the aged, the crippled, office I was impressed by a deputation from etc. They have been ever-ready to help those those eight hospitals pointing out to me who are prepared to help themselvs. I con­ that the cost of hospitalisation today had gratulate them on the work done again this so increased-as everyone in this Chamber year. knows-that they were finding it difficult to make ends meet. They wanted to know !VIr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (4.3 p.m.): I what would happen if hospitals such as that do not want to take up time unduly on this at Clifton closed down. We had a look Resolution because I realise many hon. mem­ at their financial statements for the year, bers are anxious to listen to another edition and realised that by paying about £1,500 a Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1779 year it would be possible to keep them open. university works, such works to be They served a very good community purpose, carried out by the Co-ordinator-General of and I am glad we have enabled eight of Public Works from trust funds. On page those community hospitals to stay open. 99 of the Estimates it will be seen that for Otherwise, it would have cost the State very 1960-1961 £1,544,000 is provided for State much more annually than it does at present. school buildings, £2,039,000 for technical Resolution 4-Department of Health and colleges, State high and post-primary schools Home Affairs-agreed to. and £20,000 for Gatton-Queensland Agri­ cultural High School and College. These Resolution 5-Department of Public works are to be carried out by the Depart­ Works and Local Government- ment of Public Works from loan funds. The Mr. HOOPER (Greenslopes) (4.6 p.m.): I North Queensland University also comes should like to take this opportunity of con­ within the ambit of work to be done by gratulating the Minister for Public Works the Department of Public Works. I refer and Local Government. I have known the to the University centre in Townsville. The Honourable L. H. S. Roberts for a long department is also responsible for certain time; we served together during the war. other work on the University of Queensland. I know that his energy and ability will assist I assume that this work is included in the him greatly in carrying out his most import­ item, "Other Buildings, Works and Services." ant office. I have had today an example of The Department of Public Works carries his energy. I have had a problem in my out repairs, painting and alterations of State electorate for some time, and the moment schools, technical colleges, high schools, and I mentioned it to the Minister he said, "Let intermediate schools, and provides the fur­ us go and have a look at it." That personal niture for those schools. That information interest is indicative of the man. appears at page 25 of the Estimates. For I should like also to congratulate his those items the amount provided for officers-his Under Secretary, his private 1960-1961 is £440,626. The extent to which secretary, and all his senior officers. I should the University carries out its own repairs, like particularly to mention the Assistant painting and alterations is not clear from the Superintendent of Works, Mr. Clark. In my Estimates, but it would appear from opinion he is doing a magnificent job. I Appendix V on page 17 of the Report of the mention also the supervisor, Mr. Benson, Department of Public Works that the depart­ who looks after my area and has done for ment is responsible for alterations to the some time. He is a young man with a Pathological Laboratory of the Dental great deal of ability and enthusiasm. College. I ask the Minister to look into the I take the opportunity also of mentioning matter. I realise that there may be good the amount of work that has been done by reasons why the Co-ordinator-General of the present Acting Supervisor in my district. Public Works should carry out certain con­ Mr. Wrigley. He, too, is carrying out his struction work for the Government, but I duties with vigour and enthusiasm. hope emphasis is placed on forward planning I believe that, under the direction of the by the Co-ordinator-General and co-operation Minister, this department will retain the "new with the Department of Public Works look" it has had since Mr. J. A. Heading took wherever possible. Although the Depart­ over in 1957, and indeed, improve it. I li.1ent of Public Works is not carrying out wish the Minister every success, good health, all the building work of the department, the and a long term of office. amount provided for 1960-1961 is very sub­ stantial. In 1959-1960 it exceeded The Department of Public Works is one £6,500,0,00, and for the 1960-1961 the of the main constructional authorities for the amount is likely to be £7,000,000. That State Government. Amongst other things, amount of work is comparable with the it has been responsible for the design and work carried out by two of the biggest construction of new Government buildings, the maintenance and servicing of existing private contractors in Queensland. I think buildings, the supply of school and office it is important to remember. that fact. furniture, and the exercising of a supervisory In addition the department has to under­ role over buildings that are financed under take supervisory work on projects attracting the subsidy scheme. Government subsidies. In all the respon­ However, one of the legacies from the sibility of the department is tremendous. previous Government that is being continued It has to confer with other departments is the duplication of some of this depart­ to make sure that the top-priority work ment's functions. There are many good of each department, in accordance with Gov­ reasons for it, but I think the time is drawing ernment policy, is carried out each year. near when we must consider the aspect of That would be one of the re_ally difficult organisation in order to make sure the tasks, and the Minister, I should say, would Government get the best possible return have a permanent problem in this respect. from the money they spend. The most obvious example of duplication is apparent Since the Government assumed office the from an examination and collation of the accent has been on the building of class­ various items covering education. It will rooms in State primary schools, additional be seen from page 81 of the Estimates that high-schools and technical colleges. It is for 1960-1961 £1,185,000 is provided for new interesting to note that during the last three 1780 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

years of Labour's administration a total of western and far northern areas of the State, 1,122 classrooms was provided. In the first a policy that is highly commendable. Air­ three years of the Country-Liberal Party conditioning, whether in new buildings or in Government the total number of classrooms buildings being renovated, is most appro­ provided was 1,378. That shows a marked priate, and in tropical and sub-tropical areas improvement-an increase of 23 per cent.­ it is a very welcome innovation. and the Government are to be congratulated. When it is recalled that in the last three Everyone will agree that the new ideas years the Labour Government were at the in painting are a great advantage and an peak of their efforts in classroom production, advance on those of the past. We have it becomes even more significant. During had some wonderful new ideas in painting the four preceding years of Labour adminis­ since this Government took office. The old tration, only 854 classrooms were added. browns-the light stone and dark stone­ were very depressing colours and very ugly. After this Government's early emphasis on The new pastel shades are a vast improvement the building of primary-school classrooms, that should be welcomed by all, as they we have now concentrated on more high are indeed. I hope that it is the Minister's school buildings which, for obvious reasons, intention to continue to paint schools in pastel are more costly than primary school build­ shades. ings. The Government are to be commended for finding the money for this highly desir­ The Government's public works policy of able work. providing for the children first and then for the comfort of those working in adverse Last year teachers' residences were referred climatic conditions, and where possible for to. It is worth noting that the report for the comfort of the members of the Govern­ 1959-1960 showed that 11 teachers' resid­ ment staffs, is one that should commend ences were completed or under construction. itself to hon. members on both sides of the Looking back to 1956-1957, the last year of House. It is to be regretted that that policy Labour's administration, I can find no men­ had to wait until 12 August, 1957, to be tion of any such residences. In the 1959- carried out. 1960 report there is to be found a reference to a residence for the district inspector at In the Greenslopes electorate great work Roma, and houses purchased for the regional has been carried out by the Department of directors of education at Roma and Mary­ Public Works in past months. I have already borough, and for the principals of the high conveyed my congratulations and appreciation schools at Kingaroy and Nambour. to the Minister, his staff, the Assistant Super­ This Government do look after their intendent and supervisors, but I should like employees in a way that the Labour Govern­ to add my very sincere appreciation of the ment never did. The Labour Government work of the tradesmen, labourers and others had no desire to look after their employees who work on those projects. even though they claimed they were the working-man's Government. Finally I wish the Minister a very successful and healthy term of office. I am pleased to see that the building at Anzac Square is nearing completion. We Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (4.23 p.m.): I rise have looked at that building for a long time, to advert, firstly, to some remarks I made longing for the day when it would be com­ previously in the Chamber when speaking pleted. It has taken a long time, but it is a on the Estimates, and to add to them some very attractive building. It will be in the new material that has come to my knowledge interests of the community when the work in the meantime. As I am one who is on the relaying of the footpath outside the studious in these matters, when I make sub­ building has been completed, because there missions in the House I like to add from has been too much disruption of pedestrian time to time new material that becomes traffic. I realise that the present Govern­ available. So I rise to put before hon. ment wen:. "Ot primarily responsible, but members the newest and the latest infor­ this aspect of Government work should be mation on hand affecting the submissions watched in the future. It is important that I have made. On this occasion the subject we do not obstruct our footpaths to the is public buildings in Brisbane. extent that they were disrupted in Ann Street and Edward Street. The public should not Mr. Newton: When did you become an be pushed around. During the construction architect? of this building they were pushed off the footpath, which they were justly entitled to Mr. SMITH: Many of my lesser-known use, and this must be avoided in future. I qualifications will gradually become apparent mention this matter to the Minister so that to the hon. member. It was known even in it may be very closely watched. If part of biblical times that a prophet is never recog­ the footpath is required, the minimum area nised in his own country. should be taken for the least possible time. I saw with some pride and satisfaction Under the present Government provision in last Tuesday's "Courier-Mail" the headline, is being made for increased space and "George Street 'ceremonial' is planned.". greater comfort for employees. Priority is Note that it says "is planned," not "may be being given to air-conditioning in the far planned." For the benefit of those among Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1781 us who do not keep themselves abreast of only too well that the Minister for Public current developments I propose to read some Works and Local Government will have extracts from the article. It begins- demands made upon the allocation to his "Greater Brisbane Town Planning department for a variety of reasons and in Committee is considering making George many different places. I know that country Street, between Queen Street and Parlia­ areas are crying out for services and new ment House, a processional mall, tree-lined buildings, and they deserve them. But I for a long, wide approach to the House. ' have always maintained and I still maintain, that we should put a bulldozer blade through "The scheme, which also envisages some of the buildings that are being making this section of the street the main remodelled, though not all of them. centre for State Government buildings in Re-designing is costly, but I suggest to the Brisbane, will be discussed with the hon. member for Belmont that it would be Government soon." better to spend the additional money in The particular gratification and satisfaction re-designing and getting a far more useful I derive from that announcement is that, as building than to say, "We are saddled with early as 20 October last, in the course of this design. We must go ahead and build the Supply debate, I raised a similar matter. it." We are not saddled with it until the I made a suggestion that is not identical with first sod is turned and the foundations are this but is so close to as to be, to all put down. If the foundations will carry intents and purposes, a similar suggestion. more than eight storeys, that fits in with my Accepting it at this stage as a suggestion suggestion, but I suggest that to build an of sound common sense, we all know that eight-storey building is not in keeping with prices are rising and the cost of work is modern trends. increasing. It i.s increasing because of the unwillingness of many of our tradesmen to .Mr. Newton: How high you can go do a decent day's work for a decent day's depends a lot on the foundations. pay. Mr. SMITH: Yes. As I understand it, the Mr. Hanlon: What is that? foundations in that part of George Street should be reasonable. Mr. SMITH: If the hon. member comes into the Chamber and does not listen, that is Mr. Newton interjected. his own fault. Mr. SMITH: I am thankful for the advice of the hon. member for Belmont on these As is well known to hon. members, the matters in a field for which he is particularly area between here and Queen Street is trained, and I believe that I have more than Government-owned, and, as was shown a working knowledge of the matters that he recently in a reply to a question asked by raises. He has a far more common-sense the hen. member for Townsville South, it approach to the subject than some of his is proposed to build a new Health and Home colleagues, who prattle the party line and Affairs building in George Street near where say that something is white if we say it is the present Chest Clinic is situated. black. If the colours were blue and red, it Dr. Noble: A very good project. would probably be more appropriate. Mr. SMITH: As the Minister says, it is The article continues- a very worthy project, but it cuts across the "The scheme would lend character to the line that I suggest we should take. It is city and make this area suitable for proposed to build an eight-storey building, ceremonial occasions. and I suggest that today the construction of "The proposal does not bar ordinary an eight-storey building is not the best traffic from the street when there is not the utilisation of our sites in the inner city, nor comparatively rare ceremonial procession is it the most beneficial use of that site. to Parliament House. We must face the fact that, as the city develops and the population increases, we "Under the proposal, the Government must make the best possible use of any buildings would be tall, so that as many block of land in the city or the suburbs. people as possible could work on the sites." That applies more particularly within the That, I think, is a common-sense proposal, city limits, because that is where most of and one that we should adopt. I have no our big new buildings are being erected. In knowledge of the Greater Brisbane Town the case of the new Health and Home Planning Committee or anyone on it, but I am Affairs building, I suggest that consideration happy to see that I had the sound common be given to either strengthening the founda­ sense of a planner in my remarks a month tions with the idea of adding further storeys ago, when I suggested that we should do this or re-designing the building. sort of thing. I do not agree with them that we should make it a mall. Their suggestion Mr. Newton: That is costly. is, of course, that we should raze the build­ ings from here to Queen Street. My sugges­ Mr. SMITH: It may be costly, but we tion is that we raise on those sites new must not just sit back and say, "That is buildings that are much taller and of a more costly," and do nothing about it. I appreciate useful nature. 1782 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

The article also states- Master Carriers' Association, Department "Some of them might rise to 16 floors of Lands and Town Planning Association, and it is believed they would be set in reported favourably on the plan." parks and gardens." If a body of such responsible people has Of course, that is a necessity. If you have a reported favourably on the plan, it behoves us tall building, naturally you must provide to consider it in some detail. escape areas for the people who work in it. The article continues- Open areas must be provided to give light in "The Committee, in its report, said the the lower floors of tall buildings. advantages of the Hyde Park proposal The article continues- would far outweigh any disturbances caused "The reason for wanting to make the during building operations--estimated at lower section of George Street a main three years. centre for Government buildings is that "Sydney City Council later agreed in this would allow many Government depart­ principle with the plan and approved by ments to be near each other and to nine votes to eight the site in Hyde Park." Parliament House." That was back in 1948. That decision was That is an eminently sensible suggestion, one later revoked, and again we can see the which again was contained in my submissions obstructive practices of our opponents in the of 20 October. To add a further submission second decision, which is referred to in the to those I made last month, may I read to article- the Committee an article that appeared in the "In June, 1949, however, Council "Sydney Morning Herald" on 16 November? decided by 18 votes to five to abandon It referred to a scheme for a parking station the scheme, with Labour aldermen voting in the middle of Sydney. If my suggestions as a block against it." were to be given consideration, and if we were to utilise the block between Alice Street Obviously the Labour aldermen as do our and Queen Street for Government buildings, opponents opposite, received their directions we could well incorporate in the lower part of to vote as a block. the proposed buildings, and underneath the The article continues under the caption garden plots around them, such a scheme as is "N.R.M.A. Attitude"- envisaged for Hyde Park in Sydney. The "The Acting General Secretary of the article to which I have just referred reads- N.R.M.A., Mr. A. Leslie, said there was "City Car Parking Scheme May Be still a big unfulfilled demand for parking Reviewed in the heart of the city. "A U.K. Government decision to allow 'It is a shame the proposal to build a a massive car parking station to be con­ big parking station under Hyde Park never structed under London's Hyde Park has came to fruition, as this was the logical renewed hope that a similar scheme mooted spot for one,' he said. for Sydney 10 years ago may be revived. "The British plan, estimated to cost about 'The N.R.M.A. is still hopeful that it £8 million, was announced in the Queen's will be revived. Meanwhile, it is import­ Speech at the recent opening of Parliament. ant that more off-street parking be pro­ vided for the central area'." "The National Roads and Motorists' Association, which represents 473,000 New I suggest that those remarks can be applied South Wales motorists. believes Sydney's to the city of Brisbane with equal application own Hyde Park scheme also should be and equal truth. Last Tuesday we were reconsidered. informed of a scheme envisaging George Street as a ceremonial route. If that scheme "Opinion in some quarters is that while were put into effect it would be found that parking facilities in the Domain and in a large area would be cleared of buildings Kent Street may help to relieve increasing and turned into a processional mall or, if traffic congestion in the city, they should be the scheme I suggested a month earlier was regarded only as ancillary to a far greater adopted, the same area would be clear of project needed in the future. buildings and surrounded by grass and "The Sydney scheme, which attracted lawns and the area underneath those lawns considerable interest during the last decade, and gardens could well be utilised as a envisaged the construction of an under­ parking block similar in effect to that sug­ ground car station covering 5 acres of Hyde gested under Hyde Park. Park, with entrances and exits in Elizabeth There would be the open places and the and Park Streets. The project, then estim­ places excavated for building foundations. ated to cost about £1 million, provided for What better use could be made of those the parking on three floors of more than excavations than to tie them in with the 1,500 cars, with the lowest floor 40 feet surrounding ground and make them into a below ground level. car park for people going to the buildings "In May, 1948, a special committee com­ on business, or for other reasons? It would posed of representatives of the New South be easy to solve when we realise that the Wales Police Department, Chamber of road plan devised for this part of the city Commerce, N.R.M.A., Main Roads Depart­ contains a ring-road or a contributor-road ment, Institute, of Engineers, the R.A.C., running round the riverbank to by-pass on a Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1783 lower level the entrance to Victoria Bridge. A new Government Printing Office was That road would be the ideal outlet for opened recently at Kingston, in Canberra. It cars using these underground parking areas covers an area of 8 acres. It takes up that because they would be on a different grade space because a solid foundation is needed from the contributor road, which would be for the installation of the presses and the down at least one floor and there would be storage of the material required in the office. subways and tunnels giving access all the If we built a printing office in a city block, way along this gigantic car-park underneath we would need a multi-storey building, and the buildings and lawns and gardens planned we would have to provide foundations com­ for this ceremonial section of George Street. parable with a solid concrete slab that can Mr. Walsh: Why not build one right over be poured at ground level. The cost of such the river itself? a building would multiply in direct proportion to the number of storeys or the height of Mr. SMITH: The hon. member does not the building. make such a ridiculous suggestion as it might The Canberra printing office was built at seem at first glance. In our lifetimes we will a cost of more than £3,000,000 and was have Queen Street on two levels. There designed to meet the increasing printing will be one at the present level and another at the veranda-awning level. That will come requirements of the Commonwealth Govern­ in our time; nothing is more certain. ment. The office will comprise an extensive Mr. Houston: You will have to have a single-storey production area, divided into a change of Government. number of specific process locations, and a Mr. SMITH: We will change the street, two-storey administrative block, joined to .the that is all. I am glad to see that the hon. main buildings. The single-floor planmng, member for Bulimba realises that we will with natural top lighting, was adopted to be the Government for so long-that when facilitate future expansion. Initially the build­ this double-storey Queen Street comes into ing will house about 600 employees. A three­ effect we will still be the Government. That stage development plan over the next 25 is his most realistic approach for some time. years provides for expansion to accommodate An Opposition Member interjected. a staff of 1,200. I am giving the figures for the size of Mr. SMITH: The problem of car-parking this building to show that it is not a small deserves to be treated with some seriousness; printing office, that it is larger in size-~nd it is not a matter for frivolity. Provision the number of employees and certamly must be made for these things well ahead of greater in potential-than a printing office needs; it is no good trying to deal with the that we would require. In Canberra expense problem when cars are choking the streets. was not a limiting factor and, as there is At anytime that one feels like opening an ample open space in and around Canberra, American magazine he sees pictures of immense road blocks. space was not an obstacle. The Federal Government erected this new printing office An Opposition Member: You were not in at Kingston, some miles from Parliament the House to hear the Minister's speech. House. The main production areas are on a Mr. Hanlon: You were up at the Magis­ large slab of concrete. They consist of fiat­ trate's Court. bed and offset machines, a binding area, photographic and security. sections,. mono­ Mr. SMITH: As a matter of fact, I am caster, Iinotype and teletypmg machmes and glad the hon. member for Baroona made a compositing section. It will have double­ that irresponsible interjection because it storey paper stores. shows he does not take any notice. I was The important point is that, as the Federal in the House throughout the whole of the authorities saw fit to build a printing office Minister's speech, and I was glad to hear it; some miles from Parliament House, we could it was very interesting. It was far more consider similar action, instead of utilising interesting and illuminating than the speech the site in Mary Street that has been allo­ of the hon. member for Baroona. cated. I presume it was allocated by the Another building that is listed for recon­ previous Government. It is still set aside for struction is the Government Printing Office. that purpose. I understand that a site has been set aside Mr. Lloyd: We were not in government for some years for the Government Printing Office. I have submitted that there is no need 60 years ago. to have the Government Printing Office in Mr. SMITH: I do not know when the site the heart of the city. With electronic means was first resumed for the purpose, but I do of conveying the material to be set, and of not think it was resumed 60 years ago, as setting the type, all the work can be done the hon. member for Kedron suggests: I some distance from Parliament House. understand it was earmarked by the prevwus It is noteworthy that in the Federal capital, Government for a new printing office. I a capital built with the utmost regard to the think it would be a mistake to put the most satisfactory operation of facilities office on that sit. I think we should give provided, the printing office is not adjacent to very serious consideration to the. suggestit?ns Parliament House. of the Town Planning Committee, wh1ch 1784 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply were set out in a newspaper recently. If any Mr. Lloyd: Are you one of the experts? hon. member doubts the sanity of my sugges­ tion of a multi-storey building, I refer him Mr. SMITH: I repeat that it is not only to an article that appeared recently in the my belief and Arthur Richards's belief; it is Press. In "The Courier-Mail'' of 14 Novem­ also the belief of Brisbane's experts. ber Arthur Richards wrote an article about The hon. member for Kedron asked me if buildings going up in the air. The article is I am one of the experts. I do not claim to to be found on page 2, and it says- have an expert knowledge on these matters, but I do claim to have some common sense. "Other cities facing the problem of 'sprawl' have built upwards to increase The article continues- population density. New York and London "To illustrate the dramatic saving of house millions in multiple dwellings. So space, they point out that Glenfalloch, in does Hong Kong. New Farm, will contain as many dwelling "Toronto, Canada, has whole suburbs of units as a one-mile string of new cottages multiple units. Sydney, last year, was of average suburban frontage. building 120 blocks of apartments for sale There are already signs in Brisbane that or rental." the multiple-unit business will soon be highly competitive, with the various pro­ Can anyone deny that we in Brisbane are motors wooing buyers with amenities and facing a sprawl? attractive prices. Mr. Houston: Do you agree with Arthur The common aim of all the blocks is to Richards? reduce housekeeping chores to a minimum." Mr. SMITH: I agree with what I have just Mr. Houston: Would you like to live in read. one? Mr. Houston: You might have read the lot Mr. SMITH: Does the hon. member agree and given us all the story. with reducing housekeeping chores to a mini­ mum? Mr. SMITH: I am trying to address my remarks to the debate under consideration. Mr. Houston: Would you like to live in I know the hon. member is trying to lead one of those buildings and bring up your me into irrelevancies, but I do not propose children there? to be led into them. Without any reservation I say I agree with Mr. Richards's statement Mr. SMITH: To quote further from the that where cities are facing the problem of article- "sprawl" they must go upwards. In Brisbane, "Typically they offer washing machines, faced with the lack of sewerage and water hot-water systems, and laundry-drying supply we are up against an acute problem of facilities within the purchase price." further sprawl in our outer suburbs. Mr. Houston: Anything else is good enough An Opposition Member: It is lack of money. for the workers, according to you. Mr. SMITH: Yes. Everyone suffers from Mr. SMITH: To illustrate the facilities lack of money. If more of the money that available in these buildings, and to show how was so unwisely spent by the Labour Party ridiculous is the interjection of the hon. mem­ was available to us, we would have more ber for Bulimba, I quote further- of it today. "Torbreck and Glenfalloch will have Opposition Members interjected. lawns and swimming pools ..." That is something I have not got in my Mr. SPEAKER: Order! home. I should like a swimming pool at Mr. SMITH: If we had the money that was my back door, and so would many other so unwisely spent by our predecessors we people in Brisbane. These units will have would not be in such a mess. nice lawns, swimming pools and garage space. The erection of these buildings will not only Opposition Members interjected. curb the outward growth tendencies, they will also provide for the occupants such conveni­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! ences as swimming pools and garden areas, Mr. SMITH: We could go ahead with many and it could hardly be said that they are bad of these schemes. I have no doubt that if for the city. we had more money the Minister could build Mr. Houston: How much a week is the many fine city buildings, which are so rent? necessary. Arthur Richards continues in his article­ Mr. SMITH: It does not matter what the rental is. "Brisbane experts believe that the trend must inevitably continue here." Mr. Houston: That is a typical attitude. Hon. members will note the words, "Brisbane Mr. SMITH: It does not matter in the experts". This is not only my belief and least. I am not in deep water. I am just Arthur Richards's belief; it is the belief letting these irresponsible interjections come of Brisbane experts. out to show how stupid is the approach of Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1785 our opponents. If a person wants to build Mr. Walsh: Do you favour the resumption a multi-storey building like Torbreck or a of all the private property between Alice place like Glenfalloch, or if another group Slreet and Queen Street? wants to erect a building like Camden at Ascot, that is entirely his concern. He will Mr. Davies: The Queensland Club, for build with his own money. That is not takirg instance? one penny of the State's money and it is Mr. SMITH: I am not in a position to sug­ releasing, if hon. members want to have it gest that there should be resumption of pri­ that way, a number of houses that would vate property. To the best of my knowledge otherwise be occupied by the tenants of and belief-and I think I am accurate-the those buildings, and releasing them for use only building that could be affected by the either as homes or as flats. Treasurer's question is the Belle Vue Hotel. Mr. Houston: How much a week? Mr. Walsb: What about the Lands Office Mr. Bromley: It doesn't matter to him and the Queensland Club? how much. Mr. SMITH: The Lands Office, to my Mr. SMITH: It does not matter in the lmowledge, is on this side of George Street. least because you get the chain reaction. Mr. Walsh: No, it is on the other side. As there comes about an adequacy, and then more than an adequacy, of living space Mr. SMITH: Oh, the hon. member is talk­ available, the rentals will be forced down. ing about the Lands Office Hotel. I thought As soon as you get adequate Jiving areas he meant the Lands Office in which people the rentals must go down. It is only a mat­ work. ter of economics, but apparently it is some­ thing in which hon. members opposite are Mr. Walsb: I do not think you know where singularly untrained. you are. Returning to a question asked by the hon Mr. SMITH: I am talking about this side member for Townsville South about the of George Street, not the other side. My building to be erected in George Street, which suggestion does not concern the eastern, or will be the first erected, we know-the hon. northern, side of George Street. member for Townsville South asked about Mr. Walsh: You talked about the Chest the mural that might appear on the face Clinic. Where do you think that is going of it. At this stage I ask the Minister for to be erected'? Public Works to give serious consideration to investigating the possibility of so con­ Mr. SMITH: That is a building that is structing the building as to permit at some slated for erection. My scheme is concerned later stage of an addition to it, either above only with building on this side of George it or alongside it, because there are adjacent Street. to the site many old buildings not economic­ ally using the lands on which they are situ­ Mr. Lloyd: That is not your scheme. ated. When that building is constructed, if Mr. SMITH: I endorsed the idea. I sin­ some thought is given to its future expan­ cerely hope that, when we get round to the SIOn the later development can be made at matter of our public buildings, we will dis­ a great saving in cost. continue the system that has been in vogue Mr. Hanlon: Is this a release of the town for so long-that of altering or remodelling planning committee? existing buildings. One can look at any of the remodelled buildings in Brisbane. With Mr. Bromley: A release of the rural com­ the Taxation building coming back into our mittee of the Liberal Party. possession upon the completion of the new Commonwealth Taxation building, it would Mr. SMITH: No. In reply to the hon. be a sad and sorry sight to see Government member for Baroona, this is not an official money ploughed back into that building in release of anything. If the hon. member alterations. had been in the Chamber earlier he would know that I am simply pointing out that I Mr. Newton: Do you say it is wrong to was gratified to see in "The Courier-Mail" remodel the State Government Insurance the other day recognition of the value of my building as it was before the new building remarks by the very fact that the Greater was added? Brisbane Town Planning Committee had in Mr. SMITH: No, I am not saying that is effect a similar project. wrong. Mr. Hanlon: Perhaps someone on that com­ Mr. Newton: You must remodel to keep up mittee is blowing down your ear. with the times. Mr. SMITH: Again I am sorry the hon. Mr. SMITH: Alterations are being made to member was not in the Chamber when I said it. that I have no information from the com­ mittee. I do not even know its personnel Mr. Newton: It is being remodelled inside. with any degree of accuracy. Mr. SMITH: It is being altered inside to Mr. Hanlon: You should, as a professed enable the departments housed in it to make authority. better use of the available space. I mentioned 1786 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply that in my previous speech. It is a pity that Mr. SMITH: There are plenty of places to the hon. member for Belmont did not hear build it. It should be known to the hon. what I said on that occasion. member for Bulimba, who, by his interjection, has shown his inability to follow plain, Mr. Newton: I was not here. ordinary common sense, that my proposal is Mr. SMITH: Now we have the hon. mem­ to keep all the Government departments on ber's admission that he was not here. If he this side of George Street. had read my speech, he would have seen that Mr. Bennett: He does not take any notice I expressly excepted the State Government of your submissions. Insurance building and the Public Curator building from my remarks because they are Mr. SMITH: Here we have a classic architectural assets to that particular part of example of an hon. member walking into the city. They are very large buildings, and the Chamber and immediately interjecting. one could hark back to the fact that when the If it is simply to let us know that he is Opposition occupied the Treasury benches here I point out that we can see him walk they were very slow indeed in completing the in without his interjecting. Had he read new building. I think this Government have this morning's paper he would have known shown commendable speed in proceeding with that the Government do take heed of my the work on the new Police Department submissions. It gives the lie direct to his building, and I think they have shown remarks when he said that I was not earnest common sense in enabling the Metropolitan and sincere in my submissions. If he would Fire Brigades Board to move to strategic read what is printed in the paper or if he spots. had heard the Treasurer's speech yesterday I want to clear up a misapprehension in he would realise that the Treasurer has the minds of one or two people who seem to bowed to my determination and insistence believe that I said I was in favour of the over the years. The hon. member contends demolition of Parliament House. I did not that I have not been putting up a serious say that. I pointed out that this building, with fight. If he wants any evidence of my its present Chambers, its present disposition bona fides let him refer to "The Courier­ of rooms, and its present disposition of Mail" or "Hansard." He says that he keeps corridor space and verandas, was no longer up to date with the latest developments. Let a suitable place for a Parliament of 78 mem­ him read about the development that is bers. That is what I said, and I stick to it. referred to in this morning's newspaper. I point out, too, that we in this Chamber are handicapped for facilities, and we have, as When the Town Planning Committee hon. members on both sides of the House comes to Parliament House to discuss the know, insufficient office space. I did not plan with Cabinet, if the Government will suggest at any time that this building should take heed of my remarks on 20 October­ be demolished and a new Parliament House and the remarks of somebody in 1908, if built. I can accept what I heard in an interjection­ we shall see emerge something really worth Mr. Sherrington: That is what we thought while in the centre of the city. We shall you said. have a Government area in which adjacent Mr. SMITH: If that is what the hon. one to another shall be all the various member for Bundaberg thought I said, I am Government departments. sorry. I did not say that. Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (5.2 p.m.): I did Mr. Walsh: I did not interject at all. not intend to rise in this debate, and even now that I have done so it is not my inten­ Mr. SMITH: I said it should be retained tion to trigger-off any general discussion, for architectural and historical reasons. I have but I consider it necessary to speak following not looked up what I did say, but I have a the speech of the hon. member for Windsor. clear recollection of saying that the Museum Some of his remarks followed the pattern was in need of replacement and that a build­ of the tedious repetition we have had from ing of this type could well become part of a Government members about the ordinary museum. working man in the community. Some time Mr. Ramsden: It has one or two specimens ago the former member for Kurilpa, Mr. in it at present. Connolly, made the statement that the aver­ age wage of the worker was sufficient to Mr. SMITH: Yes, but unless we preserve enable him to buy all the necessaries of life them and fossilise them, they will not be seen with something left over for luxuries. The in the years to come. other day the hon. member for Condamine I hope I have made my views on Parlia­ made his famous statement that a great ment House quite clear. At no stage did I number of railway-men were loafers. Today suggest the demolition of this building. I did the hon. member for Windsor said that the suggest that it was beyond its useful life as a real reason for the high cost of construction Parliament House, and I do not retract that of Government buildings and other building statement. work-- Mr. Houston: Where would you build a Mr. Smith: I did not say "Government new one? buildings" at all. Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1787

Mr. LLOYD: Well, the high cost of build­ stated year after year but has not been fully ing construction. He said it was because implemented because of the tremendous cost a large number of tradesmen-not work­ involved. The hon. member contradicts the men-refused to do a fair day's work for Minister for Transport and the Minister for a fair day's pay. Education when he says that this work should be undertaken immediately, when it Mr. SMITH: I rise to a point of order could, in all probability, be undertaken only simply to ask the hon. member to get a at the expense of very essential work on more accurate recollection of what was said. school construction. I deny that I said that, and I ask him to withdraw his remark. While on my feet I should like to pay tribute to the work done by Mr. Longland, Mr. LLOYD: I accept the hon. member's Under Secretary of the department, and to denial. The way I expressed it was the way his officers, and the supervisors and workmen I heard it. The hon. member for Baroona engaged on day-labour projects throughout asked him to repeat his statement, but he Queensland. They have shown for a long time refused. No doubt something will be done by the splendid work they are doing just what about it in the "Hansard" proof. In any case, can be achieved by day-labour projects con­ these statements have been made from time to trolled by a Government, and have demon­ time. If the hon. member had any intention strated that excellent results can be achieved of making such a statement, I would remind at a much cheaper rate than by contract him that in Australia there is an increase work. !n ~he rate of productivity per man employed I feel that the real reason why the former m Industry of 1.6 per cent. per year. Minister for Public Works maintained and Mr. Newton: It has increased every year. expanded the use of day labour for school and other building construction in Queens­ Mr. LLOYD: It is continuing to increase. land was that he recognised its efficiency If management itself was to accept its own and realised that the work was of higher r~spon~ibility in r~lation to costs of produc­ standard and the results achieved at cheaper tion Jt would Improve present business cost than under contract. methods. There have been several cases within the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. last 12 months or two years in close member to speak to the Resolution before proximity to Brisbane. One is the construc­ the House. tion of the Wavell High School, which was mentioned by the hon. member for Wavell, Mr. LLOYD: I can relate this to the cost where a contract was let to a private con­ of buildings. The real extent of the cost of tractor to have the school constructed ready construction is not concerned so much with for the 1959 school year and the completion actual labour costs, as it is with the cost was still being awaited in June or July of of manufacture and the cost of business that year. That was not an isolated case. methods and management. There were many such cases when the con­ Whilst ][ am on my feet-and having been tract system was employed and the cost brought to my feet by statements made by to the department was higher than would the hon. member for Windsor-- have been the case if day labour had been used. Mr. Smith: I did not make the statements. I hope and trust that the Minister will You got on your feet voluntarily. maintain the extensive work that is being undertaken by the day-labour organisation Mr. LLOYD: It is sometimes very difficult under the administration of his department. to hear the hon. member for Windsor and to follow some of his arguments. He 'men­ I should like to deal now with the ever­ tioned a plan which he called "my plan" present need of a public forum in the or "my scheme". He spoke for 25 minutes Brisbane Domain. This matter has been in the debate on the Estimates for the raised each year for the last three or four Department of Public Works, which extended years, particularly when the Government over three sitting days. Now he is absorb­ were considering sites for a new morgue, i?g ti~e that Ill;a_ny members of the Opposi­ land for which was eventually excised from tion w1sh to utilise to discuss the Estimates the Domain. I urge the Minister and the o~ departments. th.at ~ave not been previously Director of Local Government to give serious cl!scussed. Thrs IS erther stone-walling or a consideration to the future utilisation of that selfish attitude on his part. land, having regard to the land that the Brisbane City Council has announced it will The plan he outlined was simply a rehash require. The remaining area could then be and elaboration of an expensive plan that has been considered at long range by the utilised as a public domain, as it was in years Governments of Queensland for a long time. gone by. A public domain is a tradition in It is to utilise the greater portion of one English-speaking democracies. All democratic countries maintain a public forum for the side of George Street and William Street ordinary people. I ask the Minister to give down towards the river for the construction of Government buildings. A great deal of this matter his serious consideration. the land has already been resumed. His Mr. RAMSDEN (Merthyr) (5.12 p.m.): I argumelflt is a rehash of a scheme that has been hasten to assure the Deputy Leader of the 1788 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Opposition that it is not my intention to Mr. Walsh: The Minister for Transport stonewall, of which he accused other Govern­ put that one in there the other day when he ment speakers. The Opposition adopts a introduced his Bill. remarkable attitude. When Government members remain silent and leave certain Mr. RAMSDEN: It is hard to associate the matters to the relevant Minister, they are interjection of the hon. member for Bunda­ attacked most vehemently by Opposition berg with the Resolution under discussion. members who say that the Minister has lost It has been the practice day by day to the confidence of his supporters; but when bring school-children to Parliament House so Government members rise to speak, they are that they may watch what we are pleased to immediately accused by Opposition members call "democracy at work", and sometimes of stonewalling. hundreds of children have to be shown round the building so that they may take away with Mr. Davies: You know why you are stone­ them some real knowledge of the way Parlia­ walling. ment works and of Parliament House itself. Mr. RAMSDEN: I am not stonewalling, I draw attention to the very dangerous con­ and I take the hon. member to task for dition of the handrails of the verandas on his statement. I spoke on the Estimates of the back of this wing. Unless something is this department but in the time available done to repair them, one of these days, with to me I could not deal with all the matters the pressure of 60 to 70 children leaning I wanted to cover. I intend to deal now against them, there will be a very nasty, with some I omitted in the debate on the if not fatal, accident. Estimates. Mr. Thackeray: Did your members on the I shall take first the part played by the Parliamentary Buildings Committee report department in the maintenance of Parliament that matter to Mr. Speaker? House, and I hope the Minister and his Mr. RAMSDEN: I am not interested in officers will note my remarks. what goes on with the Buildings Committee. Mr. Walsh: Do you think rates should be I am making a few of my own observations, paid to the city council? and surely I am entitled to do that without interjections from the hon. member. Mr. RAMSDEN: As I did not answer the hon. member for Bundaberg when he said Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I was stonewalling, I shall not answer his Mr. RAMSDEN: If it has all been looked latest interjection. into I am very pleased, but I wished to place I was very pleased to see scaffolding on record the way I felt about it. re-erected on the Alice Street wall of the Mr. Walsh: It is in a very dangerous state. building overlooking the Lodge. It is time the verandas both on this floor and the top Mr. RAMSDEN: The hon. member for floor were strengthened, as they are in very Bundaberg agrees with me that it is in a bad condition. dangerous state. Mr. Thackeray: How do you know? Whether or not the Parliamentary Build­ ings Committee has had a look at it, or Mr. RAMSDEN: Because I have had a discussed it, I am exercising my right as a look at them. member of this Parliament. Some school children from my electorate are coming here, I ask the Minister to give serious considera­ and I wish to protect them when they visit tion during the coming year to repainting the Parliament House. roof of Parliament House. The second point I wish to raise has been Mr. Newton: I have already raised that. referred to on many occasions by various Mr. RAMSDEN: I am pleased to know members. It concerns parking facilities in that two great minds think alike. I can the Parliament House grounds. see the roof of Parliament House from my Mr. Thackeray: That has been dealt with. residence, and it certainly needs a coat of paint. Mr. RAMSDEN: If is has been dealt with, Mr. Wa!sh: What colour should it be we have had no action. painted? Mr. Walsh: We have no finance. Mr. RAMSDEN: It certainly should not Mr. RAMSDEN: I do not see how finance be red. enters into the question of parking. All that The attention of the Department of Public is needed is some form of allocation of park­ Works should be drawn to some of the prom­ ing sites, and consideration given to the best inent cracks that are developing in this build­ method of parking so that we might have ing. It may be that I am referring to the greatest possible number of vehicles something that has already been mentioned. parked in the grounds without creating a I am not referring to the cracks in the back hindrance. wall of the Chamber, but to cracks such as Mr. Sherrington: Mr. Speaker announced are to be found in the main committee room that was done five weeks ago. You could of the Liberal Party. not have been here. Supply [24 NovEMBER] Supply 1789

Mr. RAMSDEN: I could not have been Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. here? If the hon. member examines the member now to confine his remarks to records I think he will find that my name matters affecting the Department of Public is marked to show that I have been present Works. for every sittings. If the announcement was made five weeks ago, I make a plea to the Mr. RAMSDEN: I just wanted to make Department of Public Works to speed the that point in passing. That space taken up job up and bring it to a successful conclusion. by the Court section of the State Reporting Bureau could be used to better advantage by While I am on the question of parking, the House itself. I should like to mention that for quite some time after we became the Government, the Previously I have referred to overcrowding land down at the school end of the building, in the Parliamentary Library. We certainly where we go underneath the pergola, was want a room som~where in the House which used as a right-of-way and for parking of can be set up as a common room for the vehicles. It accommodated about half a use of country members who have to spend dozen cars. Then for some reason, probably long and empty week-ends down here and best known to the gardener, that area of who have nowhere to entertain their friends earthwork was cordoned off by garden stakes. while they are here. I suggest to the Department of Public Works In addition to that, we should make avail­ that it be tarred over and the roadway com­ able for the House staff-our maids, and pleted to the fence. Then we would have our waitresses-some form of common room extra parking space that would take a good where they can enjoy facilities equal to many cars and relieve some of the present those provided for nurses in State public congestion. hospitals. That is our task and our respon­ Mr. Davies: Are you advocating cutting sibility, and I commend the thought to the down trees? Minister and his department. Now I should like to address a few Mr. RAMSDEN: There is no need to cut remarks to the subject of the furnishing of down trees. The space I am speaking about Parliament House. I say without any fear could be adequately tarred between the trees. of contradiction that the furniture in this On previous occasions I have made a building is probably the best collection of plea in the Chamber for a new wing to Par­ antiques in the Southern Hemisphere-in liament House. I will not repeat that plea, fact in the world, outside of Sotheby's in though I believe it is necessary, but I want to London, and they specialise in antiques. I make some suggestions to the committee for am speaking of furniture generally. I believe the relief of some of the congestion in that the right place for most of the beautiful the House, as matters that can be attended cedar furniture in this House-! am not for to in the immediate future as against the one moment being a Philistine and saying long-term plan of building a new wing. that the furniture is not beautiful-is in a An Opposition Member: Work on the museum for period furniture. Lodge might be more necessary. Mr. Bennett: Many of you fellows come from the Museum, you know. Mr. RAMSDEN: I do not want to enter into any argument on that. I agree whole­ Mr. RAMSDEN: The hon. member for heartedly that a better Lodge is needed, but South Brisbane is the best specimen I have I do not think a new Lodge would entirely ever seen in my life, and I use the word answer the point I am trying to make about "specimen" advisedly. the allocation of space in Parliament House. Certainly it would help but it is not the I also suggest to the Minister and the complete answer. officers of the Department of Public Works that they have another look at this Chamber. I will not transgress on your generosity, I would like them also to have a look at the Mr. Speaker, but I should like to say, in chamber that is provided for councillors in passing, that if the court-reporting section the Brisbane City Council, for example, and of the State Reporting Bureau-that part at some of the other chambers that are which is not tied up with the "Hansard" provided for legislative bodies in the field of section-could be moved out into space local government. Last year I paid a courtesy provided by the courts, we should then have call on the city council of Mildura, which is available to us a fair bit of room on the a city on the Murray River. I was shown the third floor, which the Department of Public council chamber there and it would put this Works could then get to work on to give us more space for the actual needs of the Chamber to shame. Parliament, of members of the Parliament, Mr. Hooper: You mean the furniture? and of the parliamentary staff. Mr. RAMSDEN: Yes. I suggest that one Mr. Bennett: There is not enough room of the real reasons why we find it very in the courts, either. They are screaming difficult to keep members in the Chamber is out for space. because they have to leave it to attend to their Mr. RAMSDEN: On these Estimates I am correspondence and other paperwork. I was not concerned about the courts. I am con­ very happy to see two more rostra put into cerned at the moment about the needs of the Chamber to make it more convenient for the House in which Parliament meets. us, but I think the architectural branch of the 1790 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Department of Public Works could well apply machines-at least one in the Labour Party its mind to some form of architectural device committee room, one in the Country Party that will provide a suitable desk that will not committee room, and one in the Liberal take up too much space but in which hon. Party committee room-a great deal of assis­ members can keep their papers and at which tance would be given both to hon. members they can attend to their correspondence and the sta.ff in the Correspondence Room. without leaving the Chamber. It would save a great deal of time in dicta­ Mr. Hooper: That would not be costly. tion, and I am sure we would get greater efficiency from hon. members and the staff. Mr. RAMSDEN: No, it would not be costly, and it would improve the work of this Mr. BENNE'IT (South Brisbane) (5.33 Chamber. p.m.): I have a few observations to make, particularly about the Town Planning Com­ Another matter to whkh I wish to refer­ mittee of the Brisbane City Council, who are ! am quite sure the Pressmen will support me, dominated by political bias and their under­ because they have mentioned it to me-is the lying antagonism towards the Government's need for another one or two microphones in town-planning policy for Brisbane. They have the Chamber so that the voices of people an undying dislike for the Government's whose voices do not carry to the Press gallery town-planning policy because of the argu­ and to the "Hansard" gallery can be picked ment that arose over the morgue, and other up more clearly. aspects of Brisbane's development. For either A Government Member: And more accur­ that or some other reason the Town ately, too. Planning Committee have ceased to function successfully or satisfactorily. They have now Mr. RAMSDEN: Yes, and more accurately. been on the task well in excess of the time I suggest that a couple of additional allotted to them by the Minister when they microphones be put into the Chamber for were authorised to prepare the plan, and that purpose. they do not look like having anything com­ pleted in the foreseeable future. The final point I wish to make is that a great deal of the time of members is wasted If the Government are preparing any in this House. plans for their own development of Govern­ ment land they will have to do so indepen­ An Opposition Member: Inane speakers. dently of the determinations of the City of Mr. RAMSDEN: That is the pot calling Brisbane Town Planning Committee. That the kettle black. One of the greatest difficult­ committee received their authority under the ies that we have, as members of Parliament, City of Brisbane Act of 1959, and their is in getting our correspondence done expedit­ jurisdiction was clearly and carefully defined iously. In saying that, I am not being at all in that Act. Unfortunately they have critical of the staff of the Correspondence already far exceeded their authority under the Room, because I think they do quite a good Act, and I would submit that it behoves the job to the best of their ability, but in my Minister to investigate carefully what is going opinion the system under which we now work on. We read an article late last week that needs further consideration. the Town Planning Committee meet at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and sit until mid­ Mr. Duggan: What do you think of the night, mainly because they have exceeded installation of individual desks? their authority. They have usurped the juris­ Mr. RAMSDEN: I agree with it. I have diction of city council boards and officers, asked for it. and are dealing with individual applications for site approval, which is not within their I suggest that more than half the time of province. The City of Brisbane Town Plan the stenographers is taken up in dictation. as prepared by them is not binding on any­ If you ring for a girl you find that she is body in Brisbane until it lies on the table either engaged with somebody from the for some period-! think it is 90 days­ country or that she has to go to someone and subsequently, after objections have been else-- received, it must be considered by the Minis­ ter for Local Government. Until it is Mr. Davies: Not country members--city gazetted as the authorised plan it means members. nothing. Unfortunately, because they have Mr. RAMSDEN: Some country Opposition been vested or cloaked with the authority members are never here. But what I am of being called the "City of Brisbane Town trying to say is that these girls have their Planning Committee," in many instances they time taken up unnecessarily by the demands have usurped the authority of the Registra­ made on them by so many hon. members tion Board, and are dealing with certain who come to Parliament House at the one applications for site approval which concern time. It is a sort of vicious circle that is the development of Brisbane. hard to break. I hope that the Department Many of the uninitiated who are not of Public Works can see its way clear to acquainted with the City of Brisbane Town installing at least three or four dictaphone Planning Act believe that this committee has machines in the main committee rooms. By authority to do that. They are within the the installation of three or four of these authority of the Minister, who has obviously Supply [24 NOVEMBi>R] Supply 1791 not seen any plan from them. Without any Planning Committee who are, I submit very formally-approved, officially-adopted plan seriously, in the terms of the Act authorising they are determining the policy for the their operation, empowered only to prepare development of Brisbane and are giving a town plan and not to deal with individual preferential treatment to certain applicants applications for site approval. Their sole for various industrial undertakings and other task and function is to prepare a town plan types of development in the city of Brisbane. for subsequent submission to the Minister That type of conduct is entirely wrong. and, until that town plan is prepared, they It means that if some person in authority can should not deal in any way with any indi­ get an audience with the Lord Mayor he has vidual application. more than a fair chance of getting his appli­ I am also quite concerned and alarmed cation through, while the ordinary individual at the operations of, and results obtained by, applicant who in the eyes of certain people the firm of investigators in an origin-and­ is of no consequence, has no chance of getting destination survey that is being conducted by his application approved. Market Analysis. We have received con­ I can quote instances of this to fortify my, flicting reports on this subject. The Minister argument. It is not the intention of the for Local Government told us that the Opposition to delay the passing of this Survey Supervisor for Market Analysis had Resolution, so I will not quote more than never been approached to sign any docu­ two. The first is in my own electorate where, ment. That is rather strange. I suppose between Merivale Street and Cordelia Street, he gave the assurance honestly, according to the prospective purchaser of a fish-processing the advice he received from the Town Clerk business made application to the city council of the Brisbane City Council. But I sincerely through the normal channels and was rejected hope he is getting his advice in writing and on at least three occasions. The Registration not over the telephone, because there could Board and the Planning and Building Depart­ be quite a serious development in respect of ment officers unanimously rejected his appli­ this firm, and I advise the Minister to reduce cation, I think on at least three occasions, to writing any negotiations he may undertake but certainly on more than one occasion. in the investigation. Those who were cloaked with the authority The Minister said the Town Clerk had to legally disallow the application were advised him that no report had been signed, wholeheartedly opposed to it, but a repre­ or that no attempt had been made to get senative of L. J. Hooker-and evidence of the Survey Supervisor to sign any report. this is on the file-called on the Lord Mayor Mr. J. J. Braithwaite, a member of the firm in his capacity as chairman of the Town of Market Analysis, has admitted that an Planning Committee. After that call on the attempt was made. Lord Mayor certain machinery went into operation and the applicant received his It would be rather interesting to know who approval. That type of conduct is not right. is telling the truth, and why the truth is Simply because a man is well known and being concealed by some people. If every­ of some importance is no reason why he thing was above board, the two stories should get preferential treatment over other would agree; there would be no conflict. But applicants. when there is something to hide, it is always As a matter of fact, that type of develop­ found that conflict arises and dubious denials ment was entirely bad for that locality, which are made. was regarded as a residential zone up to that Braithwaite has said that they did endeav­ particular time. There was only one indus­ our to get their supervisor to sign a form trial undertaking on that whole block of or document to the effect that the investiga­ land. It was otherwise used solely for resi­ tion conducted by Market Analysis was dential purposes and it was only because correct. He did not expressly say so; he this man was able to arrange an audience used the negative-that he wanted him to with the Lord Mayor that the official decision sign a form denying that he had claimed of the council was reversed. it was incorrect. He thereby admitted that Apart from the Town Planning Committee they did endeavour to get the supervisor having determined what will be the develop­ to sign it. The Survey Supervisor refused ment of Brisbane, it was decided on the spot to sign the document, denying that he to suddenly re-zone that block from residen­ claimed the analysis was not true and tial to industrial. accurate, which means, a fortiore, that he A similar incident happened at Bulimba. must have made the claim. Alderman Holmes, the alderman for Bulimba, I do not know Mr. Braithwaite personally; could tell hon. members of a similar incident I have never met him. For all I know, he there. In that particular case certain land­ may be 100 per cent. competent and efficient, holders had prior information of what was but in any case he was not in Brisbane to be the determination of the Town Plan­ permanently-he made only fleeting visits to ning Committee on a specific site approval, this city-and he paid a supervisor to super­ and they were able to cash in on their fore­ vise the work of the outside staff who were knowledge that land in a residential area conducting the origin-and-destination survey. would be approved for commercial purposes. Although he was charging the Brisbane City Therefore, it behoves the Minister to con­ Council £28,000, he delegated his authority sider carefully the functions of this Town to the supervisor who now claims that the 1792 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

survey was not true, or that the results were vehicles a certain distance and then park not true and accurate. It behoves the them and use the ferries for the remainder Minister to find out urgently who is right of the journey. and who is wrong. According to Mr. Braithwaite 26,000 Having been engaged by Braithwaite, the homes were visited, but according to an supervisor must be a man of integrity; he article in the "Truth" newspaper, which must be a man of skill; he must be a man claims that it is based on advice received of efficiency. If he has not those qualities, from officialdom, only 10,000 homes were he should not have been engaged by Braith­ visited. No doubt the Minister could waite to supervise such an important and investigate and find out the correct number extraordinary task-one that has never been of homes visited, because there is a wide attempted before in Brisbane and the like disparity between the 26,000 homes claimed of which has never been performed in any to be visited and the 10,000 homes mentioned other city in the world. in the "Truth" article, and it is well to remember that it was done at a cost of This officer should have been carefully £1 13s. lOd. an interview. chosen by Braithwaite. As he was appointed, we are entitled to expect that he would have I submit also that it would be most unlikely the necessary qualifications and experience. that four times as many people use bicycles In his supervision of outside work he was and scooters as use taxis, especially when, exercising the delegated authority of a princi­ as we all know, the use of cycles has pal of the firm, and therefore the Minister greatly diminished in the city. should insist either that he sign the report The claim that 54 per cent. use motor­ as being true and accurate or explain where cars seems strange when compared with the it is inaccurate and in what way it will not following percentages obtained from a sur­ convey a true impression to those who will vey conducted in the U.S.A. in 1954, where act upon it. If he refuses to sign the admittedly the ownership of vehicles is more report, I submit that the firm should not be widespread. The following are some of entitled to their money. Under this origin­ the figures from that survey- and-destination survey the Minister will be Per cent. called upon, over a period of years, to St. Louis 31.9 sanction the expenditure of some hundreds of New York 17 thousands of pounds for road construction Philadelphia 31.2 when he acts upon the details of the survey Chicago 30 analysis. Baltimore 33.1 Mr. Braithwaite was in Brisbane recently An examination of the council's passenger and he addressed a meeting of the Royal figures taken from its own Transport Depart­ Automobile Club of Queensland. He sub­ ment tram and bus figures that have been mitted rather extraordinary figures represent­ correlated over the years will prove quite ing the results of the survey that was taken conclusively that there are many incon­ He claimed that 54 per cent. of the Bris­ sistencies in the report submitted by this bane people used private transport in going firm. They make no provision for the to work. He said that comprised 38 per many motorists who park over on the south cent. for motorists, and 16 per cent. for side of Brisbane and use trams and buses passengers. Then, according to the survey, for the rest of the journey. They cannot he claimed that bicycles and motor-scooters be claimed to be entirely motor-vehicle accounted for 4 per cent of the people going users. to work, and he said only 42 per cent. This is a very serious problem. It is used public transport, made up in this way- some time since I asked the Minister for Per cent. Public Works and Local Government to Trams 22 investigate the activities of this firm. He 7 said he had received no report and had Trains obtained no conclusions. It seems to me to be Buses 11 a rather simple thing to ascertain whether Ferries 1 or not that report is true and accurate. Taxis If it is inaccurate, it might as well be tossed out entirely. I am led to believe that the According to the survey-and I am quite Minister in charge of local government, the sure the Minister will query this aspect Cabinet and the administration of the Bris­ of it, because the survey cost £128,000- bane City Council know full well that the not one person in any part of Brisbane walks report as presented is faulty and that they to work. Can we believe that not one are doing their darndest now to "dolly" it up, person in the whole of Brisbane's 600,000 or to tidy it up, so that it will appear to be population walks to work? I submit that true and accurate. I repeat that I believe the figure of 1 in 100 using ferries is rather that two high council officers approached the incredible, especially when it is considered survey supervisor at 11 o'clock at night. I that only the Gardens ferry and the Customs have given the date; it is in the records. It House ferry terminate in or near the city. is extraordinary that with them was Mr. We must bear in mind that many people­ Braithwaite, principal of this firm, allegedly probably thousands--drive their motor noted for its outstanding efficiency, and that Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1793 they should have had to approach the survey of weatherboards and had an iron roof. The sapervisor at 11 o'clock at night to get him standard of accommodation today is some­ to sign a document to justify payment of thing of which we can be very proud, and I the fees. I know that a large sum has already believe it is conducive to better education. been paid to the firm but I exhort the Minis­ The teachers have better amenities and are ter to insist that the remaining portion of happy in their surroundings, and this induces the fees be withheld until he is satisfied a mental attitude that is to the benefit of the beyond reasonable doubt that the report is children. I made an inspection of some absolutely true and correct. If a city council schools recently, and I was very impressed by officer like Mr. Guthrie-a man well quali­ the architecture. The use of large hopper fied in city council engineering and traffic windows and the increasing use of glass engineering matters-has had to correct the provides adequate light and ventilation, and report and fix it up, or "dolly" it up, there this is of benefit to the eyes and the health is no reason why the city council should be of the children. CHlled upon to pay this private firm. I sin­ cerely hope that soon the Minister will be :Mr. Davies: That was not started by this able to give us a concluded and considered Government. report of the investigation he has conducted ir..to the activities of this firm and I should Mr. HUGHES: I am not suggesting that be obliged if he would let us know which this Government are solely responsible. I am officers investigated it and what their not attempting to make political capital out individual reports were. It is absolutely of it. Any hon. member who treats the imperative that the report include observa­ welfare of the people of the State seriously ltons on the survey supervisor who in fact will undoubtedly give credit not only for represented the firm on the outside work of those things that happened in the past but for the survey in Brisbane. those things that are happening at present. I do not detract from some of the work :Mr• .HUGHES (Kurilpa) (5.53 p.m.): I caried out by previous Governments on the desire to speak particularly on public works construction of school buildings and other that are being carried out by the department public buildings. I will always give credit and also on certain aspects of the local where credit is due. But we must remember authority work. I intend to deal at some that there has been a tidal wave of students length with aspects similar to those touched in the last few years, and the Government on by the hon. member for South Brisbane. have had to provide buildings to accom­ At least I hope to be able to enlighten the modate them. I pay a tribute to the Treasurer House with some accuracies rather than fill and the Minister for Public Works for having the Chamber with a whole spate of coped with a situation that was without inaccuracies. precedent in the history of the State. Not one person who desired to receive an educa­ :Mr. Bennett: That would be unusual for tion from primary school to university has you. beer, turned down. Mr. HUGHES: Judged on merit, I will let Mr. Davies: They were never turned down the matter stand. by any Labour Government. At the outset I should like to comment on the great change I have noticed over the last Mr. HUGHES: I am not making political few years in schools and police stations. I capital out of this. I say it is to the credit well remember how, many years ago, school~ of this and other Governments that there has were overcrowded because of the need to been an education system in Queensland accommodate what I can describe only as a second to none. In Victoria it is almost tidal wave of students flowing from the necessary to put a child's name down at birth increased birth rate following World War 11. to get him through school. The subsequent heavy works expenditure on The old style of school buildings painted school buildings has become a financial bur­ in drab colours has gone. School buildings den on the State's resources, but it is to the constructed today are both aesthetically and credit of the Treasurer and the Minister that they have tackled the problem V<'ry functionally designed. Today's more realistic realistically. They have not gone in for thinking is in the interests of both pupils and make-shift or temporary accommodation or teachers. However, I cannot deplore too attempted to jam pupils into rooms; rather greatly the actions of a certain juvenile sec­ have they adopted a modern approach to tion of the community, the stupidity of building problems and, with the use of these craven juvenile morons with their money that they have somehow or other midget minds who take sadistic pleasure in been able to make available, presented school smashing windows in school buildings, and buildings that in most cases not merely house other acts of vandalism. Only recently they the pupils adequately but house them very have engaged in a rampage of fire and well indeed. destruction. After sacrifices are made to make money available for schools and other I have seen schools in other places, and I public buildings this undesirable element believe that we can justly be proud of the engage in vandalism which must be a con­ architectural beauty and colour schemes of tinuing headache and heartache to the Treas­ our schools. In the old days it was easy to urer and the Department of Public Works. pick out a school building. Almost invariably it was painted a stone colour, and it was built Mr. Davies interjected. 1794 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. HUGHES: I am not thinking of the powerhouse let me say that the Labour people who engage in innocent pranks but of council of those days was given on open the type who are a burden on the councils cheque on day labour and what occurred and the Government. The ratepayers and amounted to a falsification. The public taxpayers have to foot the bill. Perhaps I am were being hoaxed because imported getting outside the scope of the debate, so I cement at twice the price of local cement shall not continue on this subject other than was being used on other than day-labour to say that I cannot deplore too much and projects. Some works and services outside too often the irresponsible behaviour of a were using imported cement at double the small section of the community who take price of the local cement which was going into sadistic delight in tearing down and destroy­ the Tennyson powerhouse and the Labour ing public utilities and public works. council were saying, "Aren't we good fellows by building it at such a low cost?" However, I should like also to pay tribute, with the as I say, let us be realistic. There is a place Deputy Leader of the Opposition, to Mr. for both. Is it really possible to make a David Longland and certain other officers of comparison of day labour with contract work the department. I believe in giving credit on a cold figures basis? I suggest tenders where it is due. They are doing a good job, should be called for major wqrks with day­ particularly as they have been faced with labour tendering and the best tenderer the problem of rising costs. The Treasurer accepted. There are specifications drawn said in his Budget speech that he is concerned up for the requirements of the job. with the rising costs forced on this community I believe day-labour projects should be as a result of wage margins increases. policed and costed by calling tenders. This Mr. Houston: Margins have not done that. country has been built up by private con­ tractors and free enterprise, so let us continue Mr. HUG.HES: We know that there have to expand it further. Let us away from this been tremendous rises in costs which have outlook that one of the systems should monoc been spread throughout the whole of the polise all the available work. In some forms works and services operated by the Govern­ of maintenance work day-labour has an ment. The Treasurer has had to utilise his advantage over private contract, but surely ingenuity to enable available funds to provide hon. members representing country electorates the necessaries for education, hospitalisation in North, West and Central Queensland want and other things. It is to the credit of these to see prosperity in their districts. Private men in authority that they have coped with contractors can provide employment for local the problem to the extent they have. residents, and so they should get their share This subject could introduce the contro­ of work in those districts. A balance should versial question of day labour versus private be struck between day labour and private contract in the building of public buildings, contract. such as schools and police stations. We know Mr. Dufficy: What would you know about there has been a revitalisation in our pro­ it? gramme for school buildings which I hope will Mr. HUGHES: I have the mental ability be expanded further in the future and to absorb more in 10 minutes than certain extended to police buildings. Police officers hon. members opposite would absorb in a have been accommodated in quarters that lifetime. The cackling of hon. members are too cramped, buildings that are ill-lit and, opposite reminds me of a pen full of hens. to use the time-honoured phrase, have rooms As the Treasurer so aptly said, "They can in which "one could not swing a cat." To pick up the crumbs." I would have to tell a great extent that is a legacy of time and the my story in picture form before some hon. difficulty of obtaining sufficient money to members opposite could understand it, but build a progressive State. It can be the time and facilities are not available. said, "There is nothing wrong in this State that money will not fix." Because I should like now to refute a few illogical the last decade has been a period of utterances of the hon. member for South tremendous progress, shortage of money Brisbane. His speech was full of inaccur­ has been a constant burden on these depart­ acies. If "Hansard" was distributed widely ments. Work has been performed by both he would almost certainly lose the little day labour and private contract, and there is support he was able to muster during the a place for both. recent election campaign. Honesty and a proper regard for truth must be the keynote Mr. Davies: Have you made any compari­ of discussions in this Chamber. A great sons between the two types of work? deal of character assassination of innocent people has been indulged in this evening, Mr. HUGHES: I understand there is a com­ and I feel duty bound to refute the allega­ parison but let us not go overboard entirely tions that have been made. Some of the for day labour. I do not oppose it entirely, people who have been maligned are over­ nor do I believe in private enterprise only. seas, doing work for the city and the State. I believe there is a place for both and one should police the other. Mr. Davies interjected. Opposition Members interjected. Mr. HUG.HES: I will deal with town planning. First of all, I should say that I Mr. HUG.HES: Let us be realistic. If hon. have questioned some of the methods of members opposite want to quote the Tennyson local government. A great deal of the busi- Supply [24 NoVEMBER] Supply 1795 ness of the Brisbane City Council is con­ Mr. HUGHES: At this stage, I say, ducted through boards constituted under "Touche" to the master, but I will still Section 59 of the City of Brisbane Act. I refer battle on for the council because it is getting to such boards as the Administration Board an insufficient subsidy. There should be a and the Registration Board. These boards balance; there is need for a bigger subsidy. are under the chairmanship of unelected The city provides many essential services­ officials. I do not think the vital business of cleansing, maintenance of roads and gardens, the city and its fate should be left to a and so on-which are all associated with great extent in the hands of an unelected Government buildings in the city. official. This again is a legacy of the Jones Labour administration. It was foisted on Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is far too the Brisbane City Council during the mal­ much talking in the Chamber. Hon members administration of the Jones Labour Council, must allow the hon. member for Kurilpa to and the city is still suffering from it. I continue his speech without interruption. trust there will be a sufficient number of Mr. HUGHES: There is just cause, on the new aldermen in the council to speak with services provided for the Government, for a authority on the subject and make repre­ larger council subsidy, and the Government sentations for the rectification of this should look into it. anomaly. I must refer to the inaccuracies in the Mr. Houston: What is wrong with the speech of the hon. member for South Bris­ present council? bane. Never before have I heard such Mr. HUGHES: It has never perpetrated political humbug and sophistry as I heard any hoax such as that put over by Labour in the House this evening. He spoke of the in 1952, when the people were told that set-up under the Town Planning Committee the city would be sewered in eight years. in Brisbane. The Labour Council in this Although time will not permit me to city was in a quandary for years. They had expand on these many aspects of civil a town plan which they did not have the administrators, I desire to say also that the brains, the ability or the guts to do any­ Government are to be commended on the way thing about. They wallowed in the becalmed they assist the council by subsidising work sea of quandary. r throw the lie direct at undertaken by it. However, the council has the sophistry of the hon. member who, on a just claim for a greater share of the petrol so many occasions, has thwarted the attempts tax, which puts millions of pounds into the of the aldermen of this city to provide the coffers of the Federal Government. The city with a proper town planning scheme council has to build and maintain roads in and to let the city know where it is going. the city and therefore is entitled to a greater If we want proof positive of his feelings, we share of the tax on petrol. The council have only to study what he said when, on suffers from another anomaly, and the Gov­ 29 July, 1958, the council introduced an ernment may care to consider ways and ordinance giving the right of appeal against me~ns. of . assisting all local authorities by decisions of the Registration Board, a bureau­ rectlfymg 1t. The iniquitous position arises cratic body with dictatorial powers that has ~here the council must pay, first, registra­ the life-blood arteries of the citizens in its tJOn fees for their buses travelling on their grip. It has the power to control the actions, own roads, and, second, State transport tax lives and welfare of the people, and their for the privilege of carrying passengers. future in matters concerning the use of They are sectional taxes. The ratepayers site of land. The council brought in have to pay these iniquitous levies and yet an amendment to Chapter 78 to the council has to make the roads and main­ permit appeals against the decisions of the tain them. There have been pleas to Labour Registration Board. We gave a proper and Governments in the past but they have fallen democratic right of appeal to applicants on deaf ears. I hope that the present State against its arbitrary decisions. Let us be Government will reconsider this matter to positive. Let us look to the future rather see if t~ere is some way of alleviating the than paddle around in the past. burden Imposed on the council. I hope my When the council desired to give some voice has a greater influence than the weak form of protection, what did the Labour voice of Labour Councils cryina to Labour aldermen do? Led by the leader of the Governments in past years. "' Municipal Labour Party, now the hon. mem­ The hon. member for Windsor has said a ber for South Brisbane, they refused to !!Teat deal about Government buildings in support it. They speak of democracy yet the George Street, and other buildings. These hon. member for South Brisbane would not require the services of the council in cleaning support a move in the council to uphold footpaths, channels, street lighting and democratic rights and principles. He led his tree planting. Here, then is another team against it on the floor of the council j~st claim by the city. ' It is only chamber at the behest of the Q.C.E. The day nght and proper that the citv should be he is accurate will be a red-letter day. That is paid rates on Government buildings. The the proper colour and the proper term Treasurer may not like my speaking in this to be applied to hon. members on vein-- the Labour side of the House. There Mr. Hiley: I will give you those three has been character assassination of some of things tomorrow if you give back the the members of the Town Planning Com­ £1.500,000 subsidy we give you each year. mittee-including Professor Cumming and 1796 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. Sewell-some of whom give their time were made known to the public, and if it and services and the benefit of valuable brains was constructive and devoid of political to the people of Brisbane and it is a great hypocrisy, I think it would be listened to. pity that they have been maligned this But that criticism should not be offered when evening. the investigation is proceeding. Every assis­ The hon. member for South Brisbane said tance should be given at that stage, and I that the Greater Brisbane Town Planning think it is a great pity that opposition has Committee gave directions to the various been forthcoming from members of the boards on certain applications. The committee Labour Party in the Brisbane City Council has no actual influence; it is only an advisory and also from some hon. members opposite body. Moreover, it gives advice to the boards in this House. How are we to decide where only upon request. I believe that it is making roads should be built? a valuable contribution and that it will save millions of pounds for the people of the city Opposition Members interjected. of Brisbane in generations to come. Never Mr. HUGHES: I am speaking to the before has Brisbane had a town plan. That thinking sections of the House. Hon. mem­ the committee is now planning the city is to bers on the Government benches look intelli­ the credit of the council and particularly of gent and honest, and I know they are absorb­ the Government who had the foresight to set ing every word I say; so I must raise my it up by Act of Parliament. Labour would voice to hon. members opposite because so have still been wallowing in the becalmed sea much is at stake if the inhabitants of Bris of quandary on the markets matter. bane are to live in proper surroundings and Mr. Tbackeray interjected. enjoy to the full the civic benefits and Mr. HUGHES: Let us not have any inane amenities that can be provided only by interjections. proper planning. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Hon. members on Mr. Lloyd: Don't you regard it as rather my left, I understand, wish to talk on some ridiculous to have a ring-road plan before of the Resolutions. They will not help to having an origin-and-destination survey? expedite the business of the House and to get Mr. HUGHES: We have not got a finalised on to the Resolution on which they wish to ring-road plan; we have a loop-road plan. speak by engaging in inane and irrelevant There is a difference. There are also perimeter interjection. roads and arterial roads. I will give the hon. Mr. HUGHES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. member a lesson on it later. I take it the While I can certainly deal with them, I hon. member is referring to the loop-road. appreciate the fact that you are doing every­ In this respect I say there should be thing possible to uphold the prestige and co-operation on these matters, and I have dignity of this Assembly. urged in the city council that there should be The hon. member for South Brisbane said no question of whether the State that the Town Planning Committee was traffic authorities are correct or whether giving preference to certain persons. That is the city council is correct. The matter a very damaging remark. The members of should be decided on the basis of what the committee include a professor of the is correct. If that feeling is paramount university, the Director of Local Government, in the minds of those in authority, I believe the Town Clerk, the Lord Mayor, and the the city will get somewhere with its perimeter chairman of the Health Committee of the roads, arterial roads, ring roads, loop roads, Brisbane City Council. The hon. member's cross-river bridges, bridgeheads, under­ charge cannot be interpreted as anything but passes, overpasses, and other traffic facilities. an attempt to besmirch their character and These things can all come in time if there is reputation. They are doing very valuable proper planning and full co-operation between work and it ill becomes any alderman or all authorities. I deplore the constant knock­ member of Parliament to go on a rampage of ing and nagging and ill-informed criticism and besmirching character and reputation. They inaccuracies that come from a number of are citizens of unquestioned character and hon. members opposite. repute and they should be helped, rather than Opposition Members interjected. besmirched and hindered by damaging remarks. If we really want to know the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! basic reason for this, I think we have only Mr. HUGHES: It is made only on the to look at the political larrikinism that we basis of political expediency, nothing else. witnessed from a previous speaker. It was Alderman Bennett has repeatedly opposed nothing more than a series of ill-advised, every effort to get a town plan. mis-directed and politically-designed attacks. Mr. Thackeray: Tell us why. Let us analyse this problem, because it is something that is of particular interest to the Mr. HUGHES: I will tell the hon. member city and its inhabitants. Town planning why. He wants to keep the slums in the should never be "knocked." city of Brisbane because he thinks they have the greatest voting potential for him. The Mr. Dufficy: Even if it is wrong? basic reason for the steadfast opposition of Mr. HUGHES: I am not suggesting that. Alderman Bennett and others to anything I think criticism could be offered when the that might be constructive in town-planning results of the planning committee's labours and anything that might aid the progress of Supply (24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1797 the city is that they do not want to alter The Town Planning Committee has been the status quo in certain sections of the city, set up by an Act of Parliament. It is just particularly the South Brisbane-West End as well it was done that way in view of section, where Alderman Bennett is domiciled. all the matters that had been pigeonholed "Johnno" Mann wants slums in Spring Hill because they were regarded as being too as an election booster politically hot to be handled by Labour. I refer to the markets issue, and the re-zoning They want the slums there as long as of South Brisbane, West End, Spring Hill there is a voting population. It was because and the Valley area. "Johnno" wants to of that that they were full of uncertainties keep his stalwarts around Spring Hill! His and did not have the intestinal fortitude to colleagues do not want a re-planning of proceed with the town plan in 1952. The Spring Hill. They have used every political Labour Government did not have what it device to hamstring town-planning in this takes to tell the Labour Council what to do city. Generations to come will know them about it, nor did they advise them what to do for what they are. I should say that today about it, nor were they game to approve we have a Town Planning Committee that is of it. The plan lay on the table in doing its utmost to give service to this city. the Local Government Director's rooms It will save billions of pounds in the future gathering dust. The people of this city because it will plan roads and bridges in their were hampered and ham stringed. Don't proper places. talk to me about any real progress or town­ I could tell hon. members the story of planning on proper principles! Hon. members Governor Gibbs, who came here from New opposite should not talk about town-planning South Wales when a surveyor of that time, in Brisbane when they base their arguments Mr. Warner, was laying out Queen Street solely on political expediency. There should to a width of 120 feet. Governor Gibbs be no place for politics in town-planning. said, "This will only be a pokey village. Don't Surely members of the council and the lnt council? Those are the type of people Mr. Hughes: That is not correct. who are employed by the present city council, which is not capable of administering the Mr. HOUSTON: It cannot be denied. affairs of the city. It has to bring in outside They submit the same price for the same ccnsultants. I hope the Government have article, and they do it in respect of a r•ot been influenced by the hon. member for number of things. Kuri!pa in their decision to bring in outside There is no way in the world I can be consultants to give them a hand with the convinced that the profit margin of private affairs of State. I think the various Minis­ contractors does not increase the cost of ters in good faith have suggested the appoint­ work. Private enterprise must work on a ment of advisory panels to deal with certain profit margin, although I have no fight difficulties, such as the care of the aged and with private enterprise in that regard. other matters; I do not think the decisions were made on the advice of the hon. member Dr. Delamothe: You agree with it. for Kurilpa. Mr. HOUSTON: Yes, I agree that private He spoke of the day-labour system. I say enterprise has to make a profit or it would most emphatically that there is no better go broke, but I do not see that private method for the construction of Government enterprise should make a profit out of the buildings. If the system fails, the cause of the Crown. I do not see any reason why tax­ failure is to be found at the administrative payers, through the Government and semi­ level. Provided he has the right leadership, governmental authorities, should provide an employee will work just as hard for the profit for private enterprise. That is why Government as he will for a private employer. we believe in day labour. Those who criticise the day-labour system Dr. Delamothe: You say they should work should look not to the workers but to the for nothing, do you? administration. The two previous Govern­ ment speakers have criticised tradesmen for Mr. HOUSTON: They must make a profit. not doing a fair day's work. Mr. Hughes: On that argument we would Mr. HUGHES: I rise to a point of order. get everything at cost and you would buy At no stage did I criticise tradesmen for your shirts and ties and everything else at not doing their work. I simply said there cost. was a place in the community for day labour, Mr. HOUSTON: The hon. member for but there should be a balance between day Kurilpa did not take the full 25 minutes labour and contract. available to him in the Estimates debate, but waited until he had 40 minutes so that Mr. HOUSTON: The hon. member is right he could make the type of speech he made. off the track. I did not say he said that. I said, "The two previous speakers." He criticised the hon. member for South Brisbane and said that his speech was full Government Members: Of course you did. of inaccuracies. On the score of inaccuracy, Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1799

I point out to the hon. member for Kurilpa part of the State. Our task is made that the hon. member for South Brisbane immeasurably easier when we have such is not the leader of the Australian Labour capable people to deal with. Party in the city council. He is no longer the leader of the Australian Labour Party Mr. Thackeray: How is that bridge going in that body. If his other statements were at Gordonvale? Is it finished yet? on a par with that one, I am sure this House Mr. ARMSTRONG: I did not think the will agree that the rest of his speech was hon. member knew where Gordonvale was. full of inaccuracies. Mr. Thackeray: I know more than you do Mr. ARMSTRONG (Mulgrave) (8 p.m.): about it. I am pleased to have the opportunity of saying a few words on this Resolution. At Mr. ARMSTRONG: I do not know the outset I offer my sincere congratulations whether I have enough time to deal with to the Minister on his attaining Cabinet the hon. member. He and his colleagues rank. There can be no doubt in our minds talk about wasting time! We will have that of his capacity and the way he will apply one out on the quiet. himself to his work. I have had the pleasure I should like to direct my remarks to both of knowing him and working with him for a departments controlled by the .Minister. number of years, and since I have had the Since he has taken over the portfolio he has privilege of being a member of Parliament endeavoured to do a great derul in my I have had quite a few dealings with him. electorate. I have been to him more than He has been helpful and attentive at all once with little problems. And I have times, and we can look forward to very good administration by him. plenty of them. They were not all solved by previous Governments. I should like to refer to the previous It is true that our schools are improving Minister who held this portfolio, Mr. James in appearance, in ventilation and the lik.e. Heading, who did not seek re-election. He but many in small country centres ar~ stlll left his mark on the State during the short without water systems, so we cannot mstall time he was a Minister. I know there is a septic systems, which is rather annoyi~g. good deal of controversy on this subject­ The Government should lead the way With it has been raised many times-but I can those amenities. speak only on what I have seen in my electorate, and in the part of Queensland in Mr. Newton: Some schools in the city have which I reside. I saw a marked improve­ not got them yet. ment in the maintenance of schools and public buildings during his term as Minister. Mr. ARMSTRONG: They should have. I have heard so much from the Opposition Anyway, I am not particularly ~oncerned that it seems to me these improvements may about the city. We can leave It to ~he have been planned before Mr. Heading metropolitan members to look after the city. attained office. I am not aware how long Only a few of us come from the country they were planned, or how long they were and understand the conditions and problems pigeonholed, but the Opposition want credit and troubles that people in the country have for them. to contend with. Unfortunately we see from time to time that those problems are not There has been a marked difference in the always correctly put or understood in the appearance of our public buildings and House and we will have a real job of work schools and it is pleasant to see the different to do' in the life of this Government in designs that have emerged. Years ago there trying to bring some of them to the notice seemed to be standard plans for houses of our colleagues. and school buildings in all parts of the State. My electorate, which is in the north­ I should like to convey to the Minister the ern part of the State, has a long period of appreciation of the people of Malanda. I extreme summer. Recently we have seen had the privilege a few days ago of represent­ houses built there with plenty of ventilation, ing him at the local authority's golden jubilee windows and light. We have also seen them and I took the opportunity of inspecting the completed in a proper manner. There are new Malanda High School. It will be a now more amenities provided for the public magnificent building and in keeping with servants who live and work in these build­ most of the buildings this Government have ings and they are probably giving a little erected. The Minister has not had much more attention to their tasks as a result. time to show his mettle, and the people extend him their sincere thanks. I should be remiss in my duty if I did not pay my respects, and those of my predecessor Mr. Newton: Have you seen some of and the people in my electorate, for the help those that Labour built? and assistance given by the departmental heads and officers of the departments that Mr. ARMSTRONG: There are not very the Minister controls. I have not had many many to see. If the hon. member reads the dealings with them, but I do come into con­ records carefully he will find that there are tact with them from time to time, and I have not very many in Queensland. enjoyed a great deal of help and co-operation Mr. Newton: Ask a question in the House from them in Brisbane and in the northern tomorrow and you will get the answer. 1960--3L 1800 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. ARMSTRONG: If the hon. member them are not as well paid as the aldermen of asks the question and listens to the answer, the Brisbane City Council, and the shires out he may be disappointed. in the country do not receive the same consid­ eration, but they do a great job in many Mr. Sherrington: The number of buildings ways. I have often thought that the chairman they put up? of a local authority could be elected under a Mr. ARMSTRONG: The Government are different system, and I ask the Minister to building them now. Here is a fine school give consideration to the suggestions that I building for which there was a crying need make to him. It seems that local government, years ago. Some years ago the area did as well as this Government, functions under get a high-school top, but it came only the party-political system. That seems to be after a great deal of agitation. accepted by everybody, and it seems to be here to stay. From time to time we hear We have a beautiful high school at complaints from minority groups. We heard Mareeba, one of the finest in the State. a complaint in the House this afternoon about We have another in Atherton-and another a minority group not receiving proper recog­ in Cairns. The schools in Cairns are expand­ nition, and I think the reason might be that ing very rapidly. Even in my own electorate party politics are generally accepted. There I cannot help noticing, when I am driving may be some local authorities in the remote around, the many changes that have come parts of the State that do not worry about about. They may have come about, too, party politics, but I think party politics are if hon. members opposite had been returned here to stay. as the Government but I should be some­ Mr. Walsh: You realise that you are a what reluctant to believe it, as Labour governed the country, or misgoverned it, for minority Government over there? so long. If they had intended to do the Mr. ARMSTRONG: No. work they had ample time and opportunity to do so. Mr. Walsh: You don't? Forty-three per cent. of the vote! Opposition Members interjected. Mr. ARMSTRONG: There seem to be Mr. ARMSTRONG: We can talk about more members sitting on this side than there that in a few days' time. That is another are on the Opposition benches. Of course, I story. may not be able to count correctly. Opposition Members interjected. I think the chairman or the mayor of a particular council should be selected by those Mr. ARMSTRONG: I have not had much who have to serve under him. I think it of an opportunity to speak since I came to would be of advantage to all concerned, this House, and I wish hon. members would because all hon. members have seen on more leave me alone for a while. than one occasion a chairman or a mayor Buildings such as these high schools in elected with a hostile council. It makes it Malanda, Atherton, and Mareeba inspire a very difficult for him and for the members, great deal of confidence in the people living and also for officers on the staff, and it does in those districts. Before they were estab­ not assist in the smooth running of the lished, their children had to be sent to council. Brisbane, perhaps, or Charters Towers or somewhere else for their secondary education. Mr. Thackeray: Do you believe in The cost of these buildings runs into many disfranchising the people of the State? thousands of pounds, and they not only give Mr. ARMSTRONG: There is plenty of confidence to the people of the particular area time to talk about that later on. We have to and their children but also impress tourists unfold these things very gently. We see talk favourably when they move through that part in the paper about the parties selecting their of the State, although we are not really candidates for next year's municipal elections. greatly concerned about that. I think quite a It seems to me that those who are elected good job is being done by the Government in should have the right to nominate their own that regard. chairman. Local government is a pet subject of mine, Mr. Thackeray: Don't you believe in the and I think the time might be opportune to ward system? say something about it. We have heard a great deal of talk about local authorities, the Mr. ARMSTRONG: I am not talking about pitfalls in their path, and what they should the ward system. have done. I have had the opportunity of serving as a member of a local authority, and Mr. Thackeray: I know what you are from what I have heard here it functions a talking about. little better than the Brisbane City Council. Mr. ARMSTRONG: I do not think the We do not have to deal with the same prob­ hon. member does. If an anti-Labour party lems and difficulties, nor do we have the task won the elections they should have the right of throwing out some of the representatives to select their chairman. Likewise, if the from time to time. Australian Labour Party or the Commas had I think local authorities in Queensland are the most members elected to the local auth­ doing a very good job. The representatives on ority, they should be able to appoint a Supply [24 NoVEMBER] Supply 1801 chairman of their choice. I cannot share the At present we are all endeavouring to views of those who think that the present encourage and expand the tourist trade. system is the correct one. If it is, why do Tourists come into areas where local authori­ we not extend the principle further and select ties are functioning and they, too, want to the Leader of the Opposition, the Premier, enjoy some of these amenities. Therefore, and the Cabinet on the same basis? It is not I think it is in the interests of the State a matter of party politics, because which ever generally that the Government should con­ party wins an election controls the council. tinue to grant subsidies to local authorities If the Australian Labour Party win, they on as large a scale as possible. control the council. They do not have an It is as a result of these payments that anti-Labour chairman who finds himself being many of the local authorities enjoy the ruled out of order, counted out or the subject facility of water and sewerage schemes. This of motions of no-confidence, and the like. I applies particularly in country shires where know from experience that councils do not there is not the density of population that work as efficiently as they could under the exists in towns and cities and, if it were system I am suggesting, where the party in not for the subsidies, there would not be power could elect its own chairman or mayor. much chance of providing water supply and It is quite fair to both sides. Private com­ sewerage schemes. Their costs would be so panies, public companies and co-operatives high that it would be impracticable to finance select directors to govern them, and the them from the general or special rate. It directors select a chairman from among their would be entirely beyond the capacity of the numbers. This is a very important point in local authority. local government. Under the present system, most men who stand for that office have I know how difficult the position is with served for some years on a local authority­ subsidies, but they play a worth-while part some perhaps for a quarter of a century. The in the development of the areas and the provision of the amenities to which I have services of such men are valuable, but they referred, and I hope they will continue. are lost if they do not make the grade. When two men stand one must go, and councils Similar argument applies to the supply of can ill afford to lose the services of a man septic systems and water supplies in State who has served long and worthily. schools. These, too, are very necessary but they cannot be provided without subsidies. Mr. Thackeray: You don't get two chances We have heard much criticism of the in Parliament. Valuer-General's Department and I will be Mr. ARMSTRONG: There is no com­ brief in my comments on it. I think all parison. Why are the Leader of the Oppos­ hon. members know what is going on in this ition, the Premier and Cabinet not elected on department and it is a vexed question at the same franchise? It would be a pretty silly the moment. But I think there are some show! aspects of which not enough notice is taken. We all agree that the value of money is Mr. Thackeray: But you are talking about not what it used to be and, to a large extent giving them two cracks of the whip. the Valuer-General is following the trend of the general inflation, with the result that Mr. ARMSTRONG: Not at all. All I am anomalies arise. suggesting is that the chairman or the mayor, In the shire that I have the privilege to as the case may be, would be selected from serve, valuations rose by about 30 per cent., among the majority. There is a lot of merit which is not a very substantial rise compared in the suggestion. It has been made to local­ with that on the South Coast. However, government conferences and I know the when a study is made of how those values previous Minister wrote to the councils seek­ are arrived at it will be seen that some land­ ing their advice on the subject. The majority holders' values rose very substantially. Some of councils did not think it was in their best may even have dropped slightly but, as I say, interests, but I am sure it is a better system. the overall rise amounted to somewhere There are no catches in it. It is quite fair. about 30 per cent. There is another matter concerning local I feel, as does the Minister, that there is authorities about which I, along with the no other system of valuing land. It is a previous speaker, am a little concerned, that matter to which I have given much thought. is, the subsidies that these bodies get. I know The Minister has probably given it even that it worries the Treasurer, and I know more thought in view of the discontent and the amount of money that is being doled heart-burning that arises from time to time, out to them is very substantial, but, on the but I hope that in future he will see that other hand, local authorities at present are the shires are valued more or less in rotation. doing many things that are really outside Our shire has been valued twice in the last their province. few years. There are still some shires that have been valued only once by the Valuer­ In many areas the local authority main­ General, and some have not been valued at tains beaches, sports-grounds and various all. I suggest that that angle be watched, amenities of that type, which not all the rate­ and that shires are valued as nearly as payers are in a position to use, and there is possible in rotation. If that is done, the usually strong agitation from sections of the discontent and heart-burning will not be community about financing these amenities. nearly as great. 1802 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

I wonder at times just how values are whether a reasonable valuation has been arrived at. For example, in the town of arrived at by the valuer, that is, when several Gordonvale two blocks on opposite corners, parcels are valued conjointly. An argument both equal in all respects, may be valued advanced by the Valuer-General's Depart­ at £500 and £250 respectively. ment, I understand, in favour of valuing Before resuming my seat I should like to several parcels of land as one is that if one deal with another problem. I do not know piece of land is without water facilities, and whether it arises in all local authority areas, the adjoining block has a good water supply, but it affects my shire and some of the the value of the waterless block must be neighbouring shires. Section 14 of the altered materially when used in conjunction Valuation of Land Act provides- with the land on which water is available. " ... unless the Valuer-General other­ I think all hon. members will agree with wise directs, there shall be included in that. One block would not be worth much one valuation several parcels of land which if there was no water on it. If that is an adjoin, and are owned by the same person, example of the reasoning that adjoining and are of the same class of tenure, and parcels of land used for a common purpose where either no part is leased, or all the should be valued as one, I submit in the best parcels are let to one person." interests of all concerned that each parcel of land should be valued separately, and From the local-authority viewpoint, that that such separate valuation should be made causes difficulty when the owner of the available to the local authority concerned property disposes of one of the blocks of and the owner. land that have been collectively valued; sometimes a long period expires before the I do not know whether the Minister has Valuer-General's Department makes avail­ been confronted with this problem, but I able to the local authority the separate new know of one or two instances in the north­ values for the lands concerned. It could ern part of the State. They give the local happen that the sale of one of the blocks authority a good deal of concern because it valued conjointly with others takes place could miss out on its rating, and conse­ prior to the levying of rates in any one year, quently the owner misses the opportunity to and, if the new valuations are not received appeal against the valuation of a certain by the local authority within the year, the section of his land. I have found that council could be debarred from levying the although the land may be held under the rates on the property as it would not have a same tenure, it is not always used for the value for the separate parcels of land. same purpose. One portion may be used In practice, the greatest difficulty arises for growing cane, and the other for grazing when one of the parcels valued conjointly cattle. I should like the Minister to look into is sold and rates are owing on the total this matter and see if he can do something area. The vendor and the purchaser desire to solve the problem. to arrange an adjustment of rates, but cannot I have nothing more to say on this do so on a correct basis until the new valua­ occasion. I wish the Minister well in his tions are known. As at the date of sale office and I sincerely hope that he will con­ no basis other than an area basis can be tinue to treat us as well as he has in the used for an apportionment of rates and it few months he has been administering his must be agreed that with different types of departments. soil an area basis is not an equitable one. The local authority likewise has the prob­ Hon. L. H. S. ROBERTS (Whitsunday­ lem of correctly showing in its records Minister for Public Works and Local Gov­ the arrears of rates, as the rates are levied ernment) (8.33 p.m.): Firstly, I thank hon. on the land and transferred from person to members for their congratulations and good person with the transfer of the land. Legally wishes, and I am deeply appreciative of the the arrears of rates should be correctly kind expressions that they have conveyed to apportioned to the land, but, as no basis the officers of my department. In the six exists at the time for apportionment, the months or so that I have handled this port­ total arrears are usually shown as arrears folio I have come to appreciate the good o~ the section of land retained by the pre­ work that is being done by very many of vwus owner, and it may be that, if the the officers who come under my control. council had to sell the land to meet the I had the opportunity this afternoon of arrears, the residual area would not be going out to the school at Camp Hill and valuable enough to meet the total arrears. looking around there to see yet another side On the other hand, the purchaser of one of departmental work. or more of the parcels valued conjointly I appreciate the remarks of the hon. would not be happy to have the whole of member for Greenslopes about air­ the ~rrears attached to the land purchased conditioning. As you know, Mr. Speaker, by h1m. Some of such arrears would be in we are spending a certain amount of money respect of the residual area retained by the on air-conditioning in various parts of the venclor. State this year. It is certainly not a large The land-owner is not able to appeal amount, but at least it is a step in the against the valuation of any one of the right direction. The sum I am referring to parcels of land-if several parcels are valued is for existing buildings. When new buildings as one-and it is not easy for him to assess are erected, without doubt air-conditioning Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1803

will be included in the original plan. We we are doing the best we can for three sec­ have earmarked the sum of £50,000 annually tions of public servants. We have also allo­ for air-conditioning of existing buildings. No cated the sum of £30,000 for residences for doubt you will remember, Mr. Speaker, that stipendiary magistrates and clerks of petty we zoned the State, and the areas that will sessions this financial year, and only today be treated first are the Far North and b xecutive Council approval was given for the West. They are bounded by a line the erection of two new residences in Towns­ running just south of Cairns, down to the ville, one for the stipendiary magistrate and Maranoa between Mitchell and Roma, and one for the Land Commissioner. We hope then down to the border to include St. that in the near future both these gentlemen George. At the moment the amount we will be in their new homes. The present are spending on air-conditioning is merely building, Koyama Flats, which is adjacent to chicken feed, but we hope that in the future the Supreme Court, is approximately 80 years we will be able to do very much more. old, and it will be either dismantled or sold for removal because we think it would not The hon. member for Windsor spoke at be economic to spend more money on it. length about public buildings. I know that he has raised the matter before. Without A further amount of £39,000 has been doubt he spoke along the right lines, but set aside for public service housing gener­ ally, and a perusal of these items will show unfortunately our existing Government build­ that progress is being made in our endeavour ings are not in as good a state of repair to house the public servants of Queensland. as they might be. That is something we inherited. When we remember that Govern­ The subject of housing brings to my mind ments of yesteryear had an abundance of articles that have appeared in the Press this money, it is a tragedy that they let the week in which it was stated that our present public buildings of Queensland get into such prison accommodation is inadequate. That a deplorable state. We are doing our best is so, and we have known it for some time. to restore them to a reasonable state of But when one is endeavouring to carve a repair but we still have a big job ahead of joint and give each member of the family at us. The hon. member for Merthyr spoke least a slice, though perhaps not as much as of Parliament House and my remarks apply he would like, someone has to get a little to him, too. less. A similar position arises in regard to our prisons. It must be realised that there I regret that the hon. member for South has been a rapid growth in our population Brisbane is not in the Chamber. Of course through both migration and natural increase, we do not see him here very much. H~ and it is estimated that in the near future reminds me of a dog that jumps over a fence the population of Queensland will be knocks the rubbish tin over, clears the fenc~ 1,500,000. It is only natural to assume that again and away he goes. I had intended to our prison population will also increase. de.al at length with matters raised by him We have a programme of works for prisons th1s afternoon but I shall save it for some but we can only start on it this financial time when he is present. year. At Wacol £740,000 is the total amount One speaker this afternoon referred to the estimated to be spent on the medium­ dwellings that this Government have built security prison. At Boggo Road an expendi­ since they took office. Without doubt we ture of £37,000 is needed for a new kitchen have made a very big step forward-it is and laundry, and £18,000 is to be spent more than a step; it is an absolute march for­ on a medical block. At Stuart £4,629 is war~-in the construction of dwellings, for needed for the remodelling of the kitchen, public servants for one thing. Going through £45,000 for water supply and sewerage, the works loan programme I see-and I £19,000 for an office block, £200,000 for have referred to this before-that we have set the medium-security area, £25,000 for an aside for the current financial year £75 000 extension to "C" wing, £12,000 for work­ for new residences for primary schools.' A shops, and £50,000 for a dormitory block. We few pages further over, I see that the sum have estimated the cost of a new prison at of £20,000 was set aside for high-school Thursday Island at £20,000. The total residences. Of course, there are many of expenditure on prisons is very much in excess those to be attended to in the years that of £1,000,000. This financial year we do not lie ahead because, as hon. members no doubt expect to spend any more than £125,000, but we are hopeful that in each succeeding year know, a vast number of high schools have the expenditure will be greatly increased so been constructed in the three to four years that we can catch up the lag. that we have been in office and very many of them will need a residence for the principal. In the debate on the Estimates of the Even in a city like Mackay, which has had Department of Public Works reference was secon~ary. schoolin~ for very many years, made to a letter, 300 copies of which I signed there IS still no residence for the high-school and sent out to employees under my control. principal. As I said before, this £20 000 Unfortunately I did not have time to read the is only a drop in the bucket, but at least letter to the Committee so that at least it we are moving in the right direction. would be recorded in "Hansard" for the people of Queensland to judge its contents The sum of £38,850 has been set aside for for themselves. I intend to read it now, and the erection of police residences in this also an article in the Building Workers' financial year, so hon. members will see that Journal, so that hon. members can compare 1804 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply one with the other. Under the Department "In case you are not aware of it, I of Public Works letterhead, the following would like to inform you that Loan Funds letter, dated 1 July, 1960, was sent to all for new construction works are allocated the department's employees- each year by the Co-ordinator-General of "On taking over the Portfolio of Minis­ Public Works after the urgent require­ ter for Public Works and Local Govern­ ments of the various Departments for ment, I do so with a deep sense of respon­ which this Department is the constructing sibility, firstly to the State of Queensland authority have been examined and this, and its people as a whole and secondly, of course, is in turn governed by the and perhaps more directly, to you good allocation from the Loan Council. people and your dependants, as I realise that, in effect, your very existence will "This, then, is the picture as I see it. depend on the successful functioning of Every employee is an important cog in the the Department. wheel and whilst they are strong cogs, each bearing its full share of the weight, "Neither I nor you can bring this about the wheel should continue to turn as individuals, but collectively, as a team, smoothly, but if the cogs become weak, we can contribute a great deal towards its chipped or broken the wheel will com­ achievement. mence to clatter and become noisy with "At the present time the day labour the result that it will eventually break work force is slightly in excess of 2,300 down completely. which includes more than 200 at the Ipswich Road Workshops and it is my "The Public Works Department, for desire to at least retain this number so many reasons, not the least of which would long as they can be gainfully employed. be that it does not pay income tax This, however, will depend entirely upon should be able to construct at a price well yoursleves. I do not expect employees below that of private enterprise and if to 'break their necks' nor do I expect this is so there should be no fear of them to overwork themselves, but I do unemployment in the minds of the expect a fair day's work for a fair day's employees. pay and this applies to the highest as "WHl you help me to help you and well as the lowest employee in the Depart­ your mates by giving me your full ment. co-operation? "I want all employees to realise that a Yours sincerely, given sum is allotted each year for Lloyd H. S. Roberts, expenditure on Public Works, and the Minister for Public Works amount of this sum will govern the and Local Government." quantilty of work that can take place Not one person could find anything according to the estimated cost of the wrong with a letter such as that, yet we various projects. An endeavour is made find in the Building Workers' Journal of to spread these jobs over the areas in July 1960, editor G. M. Dawson, the fol­ which the work forces are situated and lowing heading:- so release or plan this work so that all employees are kept in constant "New Works Minister Calls for 'Blood employment. and Sweat'." "Unfortunately, there are two things Could any hon. member say that anything that work against the carrying out of in my letter called for blood and sweat? the latter plan in its entirety and can lead The article reads- to the laying off of staff, particuJarly "Clearly defining the policy of the towards the end of a financial year and Country-Liberal Party, new Minister for they are increases in wages with resultant Works (Lloyd Roberts) in a two-page increases in costs all round and the failure 'personal' letter to every employee of the to complete jobs within their estimates. The Public Works Department has nothing to one way to guarantee continuity of promise but sweat and toil; for stripped of employment is to ensure that every job is all verbiage the letter calls upon the Public completed at under its estimated cost as Works day labour employees to work in this way a fund is created which can harder for less money. help to solve difficult problems at the awkward time of the financial year. "Such is the policy of the Boss class as represented by the Country-Liberal Party "During the past eight years, the/annual expenditure by the Department has trebled Government throughout its history. and the figures hereunder for the past Main Core of Letter. five years will outline the steep increases "The letter, after referring to the manner in the more recent years- in which loan money is allocated to the Year Amount Public Works Department and the respon­ £ sibility of the Works Department on the 1955-1956 3,446,479 planning of work has this paragraph for 1956-1957 3,535,246 which the letter was mainly designed. 1957-1958 3,983,147 Here it is:- 1958-1959 .. 5,372,726 'There are two things that work 1959-1960 to 31 May 5,781,309 against the carrying out of the latter Supply [24 NOVEMBER] Supply 1805

plan in its entirety and can lead to the wages. On the contrary, there are tens of laying off of staff, particularly towards millions of pounds being squandered every the end of a financial year and they are year in Australia by the Minister's col­ increases in wages with resultant leagues in the Federal Government on increases in costs all round and the so-called defence." failure to complete jobs within their Mark that one. It continues- estimate.' "The scandal of the Central Australian "That is the part which the daily Press rocket range is a classic illustration of did not mention when it referred to the this." thousands of letters the Minister had That is another one to mark. I read further- signed and made some reference to its "Notwithstanding what the Minister and contents. his colleagues may desire, building workers "Building workers on the day labour will continue to struggle for higher wages staff of the Public Works Department have and the people will insist that this Gov­ a record second to none for the economic ernment take a stand against the Federal production of work and do not need a Government and demand that the addi­ threat from the Minister of possible dis­ tional finance be allocated to Queensland missals to encourage them to make a to enable the workers to maintain and success of day labour. improve their living standards. "Know More Than Minister. "We should reject the Minister's threat­ "Such building workers know more about ening blackmail document in its entirety the problems of making day labour a and continue to make day labour a success, success under a capitalist Government than irrespective of strangling red tape from Mr. Roberts will ever know-no matter above, and to fight and win higher living how long he holds his present Portfolio. standards. "Finally, it is a better than an even "There is more 'to bringing the job out money bet that Mr. Roberts and his col­ below the estimate' than the sweat and leagues will be seeking increases in their toil of the worker. The strangling red own salaries before the life of this Par­ tape of top administration; the policy of liament is complete." the Country-Liberal Party itself; the There you have it, Mr. Speaker. There is carrying out of jobs on estimates which the letter that I sent out to the employees have been made up years before; the hand­ and then we have this filthy piece of doctrine ing 'out of the easy jobs to the contractors which, of course, one could only expect when and holding the difficult ones for day it comes from an avowed and self-confessed labour; these and many other matters will Communist. need to be overcome by the Minister before he has any real right to infer that Mr. Houston: Who wrote it? it is the fault of the worker when a job Mr. ROBERTS: Gerry Dawson, the editor fails to come out below the estimate. of the paper. The hon. member need not "Pulls His Weight. worry about anything else. It is there, with the name in front of it, and the hon. member "The Minister need have no fear that may look at the wording of it. The wording the building worker will not pull his is identical with what we read every day, and weight on the day labour jobs! His we have read it every day for years. It blatant attack upon the workers movement seems to be a habit with these "boys". for higher living standards by his reference They have evidently been to the same little to the 'danger of increased wages' is a class and, parrot-like. they all learn the threat to sack building workers if they same thing off. It does not matter what win higher wages. part of the State we go to, we are told "This from a representative of the ruling exactly the same thing. Country-Liberal Party should be further Listen to this, referring to the Federal proof, if such were needed, of the Govern­ Government's "so-called defence"- ment's attitude towards the working class. "there are tens of millions of pounds "In a period of rising prices where being squandered every year in Australia exorbitant profits, bonus shares and watered by the Minister's colleagues in the Federal stock, and many other under-hand methods Government on so-called defence. of handing out undistributed profits are the "The scandal of the Central Australian order of the day, the working class, includ­ rocket range is a classic illustration of ing the building· workers must continue to this." fight for higher wages." Does the same gentleman say that his col­ leagues in Russia-his masters in Russia Then there is this heading- who are sending rockets into the air every "Where Money is Squandered. now and again-are squandering money? He "Furthermore, the building worker, as is the mouthpiece of this doctrine that would with other workers, is entitled to advance give everything it possessed and would pawn his standard of living. The solution to the its soul to have Australia throw away its problem of Government finance does not defences and let the "Reds" walk in and lie in the reduction of workers' wages or take us as an undefended country. These in the cessation of the struggle for higher rats that are endeavouring to "rat" on the 1806 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply country that has kept them over a long we would miss the entertainment that he period and who are preaching this filthy had provided over the years. I suppose we doctrine for these people overseas would not must be thankful for small mercies, and be be top dogs if the "Reds" ever came to this appreciative that the hon. member for South country. They would be the first to be Brisbane is now wearing the crown. "bumped off." They would be told "You Resolution 5-Department of Public were traitors to your own 'mob'; there is Works and Local Government-agreed to. no way in the world you will be traitors to us"; and then, "Bang, bang, bang," and off Resolution 6-Department of Public Lands would go their heads. That is how it would and Irrigation-agreed to. be for them. What decent citizens of this Resolution 7-The Treasurer and Hous­ State would ally themselves with people who ing- print this type of thing and preach it over a period. Someone may say that Dawson Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (9.12 p.m.): On only just got back into power in his union; reviewing the speeches of Government mem­ so he did. I think it was a matter of 11 bers today and this evening, I think we could or 12 votes for him and 7 for the other say that never have so many listened to so man, and roughtly 2,000 voted out of the little for so long. I do not think members union's membership of 12,000. One of these of this Chamber should take from members days-and I hope it will not be too late­ on the Government benches any protes­ the people will wake up to the fact that tations that they are concerned with freedom they have been taken for a ride for so long of speech in this Chamber, because they and that it is high time that they did some­ have done everything they could to stall thing about it. Then perhaps we will get and deprive members of the Opposition ?f down to a little common sense in industrial the opportunity to express themselves m unions. the debate. Even the Ministers have engaged The hon. member for South Brisbane was in this stalling. very worried about town-planning. One Referring to the Treasurer's speech, his could see right from the start that what he attitude towards the important affairs of the knew about town-planning could be written State has been depressing to me. I have on an Aspro. He said that I should care­ always had a very high opinion of the fully investigate what is going on with the Treasurer as a man and of his ability, but Greater Brisbane Town Planning Committee. I am very disappointed with the way in It is ridiculous for him to suggest that when which he handled the Estimates for his I have as my representative on the com­ department on this occasion. He certainly mittee the most outstanding officer on local "ave us a great story about matters that government and town-planning, not merely ~ere not concerned with the vital aspects in Queensland but possibly in Australia, in of life in Queensland. He told us a great the person of Mr. Sewell. I have the utmost story of Miss Australia contestants down confidence in the Director of Local Govern­ on the Nerang River and the pleasures .of ment and I do not need such suggestions water ski-ing; he enlarged on the stones from one who constantly comes into the of old women who were nearly knocked out Chamber from the council and tries to wash of their boats. He went to great lengths to dirty linen. I sometimes wonder what will tell us everything but what we wanted to happen about April next year when the hon. hear about the future of Queensland. He member ceases to be an alderman of the spent a great deal of time talking about the Brisbane City Council. From the day he various boat harbours on the coast, but arrived here he has spoken on nothing but he did not tell us what he was prepared council matters. Tonight we saw what to do to provide houses for the people might have been interpreted as an endeavour of the State. He made a most amazmg to do some political campaigning for the statement when he said that, as far as he local authority. When he ceases to be an was concerned, the pressure was off in alderman, and after the elections, unless he relation to housing. I am quite sure that has more up his sleeve than he appears he has not gone among the people of to have, he will possibly be deaf and dumb Queensland, especially those who are here and perhaps his only course will be homeless. If he had, he would not have to use the sign language. It ill becomes made such a rash statement as that. He is hon. members to come into this Chamber completely out of touch with the housing and try to tip tins and then flit off again, position. as he has t-een in the habit of doing. I do not think his antics in the Chamber do Since I have been a member of this House, him much good. However, we should be one of the most frustrating features of my thankful. If we did not have a little fun Parliamentary life has been that, although and humour here from time to time we many applications have been made to me should possibly finish up going off our heads. for assistance in obtaining houses for people From time to time we have had somebody who need them, I have been successful in to fill the bill and play the clown in the securing only one. Chamber. For many years we were enter­ Mr. Hooper: Bad representation. tained by the former member for Hinchin­ brook. I, for one, was very sorry in a way Mr. MELLOY: It is not bad representation. when he left the Chamber, because I thought When we try to get a home for somebody Supply [24 NoVEMBER] Supply 1807 we are told by the Housing Commission, will be sewered with Government assistance, "We have so many people on the 100 points but when? If the A.L.P. win the council priority that we cannot do anything for elections in April next and the money is anybody else. We are unable to house those available from the Government we will get who have 100 points priority." I have one these areas sewered. case in mind particularly. A woman and It has been estimated by the Treasurer that her husband who have not long been married this year £255,000 will be spent on jett_ies, are expecting a child in January, and they dredging and boat harbours as agamst are living with the wife's parents. There £132,000 last year. That is a very good are 11 people in the house-the wife's thing. But the Treasurer should not be so parents, their five sons and two daughters, greatly concerned about people who want and the young married couple. Only a seven­ to take trips up and down the coast and foot high partition separates the young couple the harbours that are available for them on from three boys with whom they are sharing the way. The most important consideration a bedroom. They are expecting a child in is the provision of assistance to local people January. How can they be expected to rear by way of harbours and boat anchorages. a child satisfactorily in an area of about 7 feet by 10 feet? According to the Housing I wish to refer particularly to an area in Commission they are not entitled to a home. my electorate-Serpentine Creek. This cree~, There will be 12 people in one house when having a very excellent boat anch?rage,. rs the child arrives. How can they be expected used by approximately 120 boats, mclud~n,g to raise it under conditions like that? What fishing boats. Unfortunately, only at hrgn am I to tell that woman and her husband? tide can these boats leave Serpentme Creek. Surely they are deserving of a home! Yet I suggest to the Treasur.er that .when ~e is the Treasurer tells us that-to use his spending money on dredgmg he give consrd;or­ expression-"the pressure is off." Of course ation to dredging the mouth of Serpentme it is not off. The Commissioner is still trying Creek. I am pushed for time and will not to house people with 100 points priority. enlarge on the subject, but there is another Let us not dismiss the housing problem so matter in relation to Serpentine Creek to lightly. which I wish to refer. It is the presence on that creek of speed boats. These boats are Although the Treasurer spent a tremendous creating quite a nuisance on the creek, amount of time talking about various subjects and a number of boatmen are con­ like water ski-ing, he dismissed the housing cerned at the danger to men who use the problem in a cavalier fashion. He was creek for fishing. I think there should be not prepared to tell us what the Government some control over the use of outboard-motor were going to do about it. He said that speed boats, which are using the creek to the it was under control It is not under detriment and danger of fishermen and other control; it is still one of the most pressing boating people. problems we have in Queensland. Every day people are coming to us seeking homes, One of my colleagues wishes to speak yet the Treasurer tells us that housing is on this Resolution, so I reserve further under control. I appeal to the Treasurer comment until a later date. to tell us something concrete about what Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (9.22 the Government are prepared to do. We p.m.): I, too, wish to concur in the sentim~nts are the ones who have to deal with people expressed by the previous speaker. Much time who are deserving of homes of their own, has been wasted during the previous two days so it is no use his telling us that the problem of this debate. We had a long dissertation is under control. What inducement is there yesterday from the Treasurer an~ Minister for for young people to marry? They have to Housing who, because of the time h<; took, live with their families. excluded many speakers who had pomts to Mr. Rae interjected. raise. Tonight we have listened to a discussion from the hon. member for Windsor Mr. MELLOY: The hon. member would on the creation of a veritable Disneyland not know. He has enough room in his home of Government buildings, and one by the to house a couple or families. It is the hon. member for Merthyr on how he would people in the city who are struggling to like to rejuvenate Parliament House. These get a roof over their heads that we are fihings are entirely divorced from the concerned about. We cannot expect young every-day problems of the people. people to marry if they cannot get homes. Mr. Hughes interjected. Let me make brief reference to drainage in Queensland Housing Commission areas Mr. SHERRINGTON: The hon. member such as that at Zillmere. The Treasurer has has had his say, and I do not intend to listen indicated that he is prepared to lend the to him at all. city council sufficient money to sewer Mr. Hughes: I will give you a lesson on and drain the Housing Commission estate local authorities later on. at Zillmere. But when will it be done? If we throw the burden on the city council Mr. SHERRINGTON: The hon. member the work will never be done, even if the thinks he will. Government provide the money. I under­ The frustrating part of being a member of stand that about four other areas in Brisbane Parliament particularly relates to the housing 1808 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply available to people who are deserving of and in an area of 12 feet x 10 feet x 6 feet 6 in need of all the assistance we can give. inches high. It has a concrete floor. It is The Minister for Housing said that if we were damp, dark and draughty and defies any suddenly to build 6,000 homes he doubted if efforts to keep it clean and tidy. Of course they would be needed. It is for that reason it is affecting my own and my 22-month­ that I will deal with some aspects of the old baby's health. Doctor is treating him for Housing Commission and read to hon. mem­ bronchial asthma and he feels sure it is bers some letters that have been forwarded being aggravated by the poor living con­ to me by people-- ditions particularly the dampness. I am at present expecting another child and under A Government Member: Give us a copy. these conditions, having no sink, bath or Mr. SHERRINGTON: I have more import­ washtubs, and only one tap, life is unbear­ ant things to deal with than interjections from able." the Government benches. The letter continues in that strain. In view of the limited time at my disposal I shall It is quite obvious that the Housing Com­ read only the following paragraph- mision forwards a stereotyped reply on every "You no doubt will agree that these con­ occasion on which representations are made ditions are far below the barest necessities to it, but I will quote from a letter I have for health and hygiene, but a Commission received, typical of others I have received officer informed me that there were others from time to time. in far greater need than us-this I fail This letter reads- to understand." "Nearly two months have gone by since And then we have the Minister for Housing I first applied for a house in Inala. making the statement that he doubted if the houses were needed! "The place in which my family and I are now living is no longer fit to be used as a In response to our representations, the residential. It was only meant to be used Housing Commission sends a stereotyped reply as a temporary dwelling. There are only in which the following time-worn excuse is three rooms and the kitchen is the only one given- with a floor; the two bedrooms have "The Commission has on hand a number earthen floors. From the ground the height of cases where applicants will be without of three feet the wall is timbered, from accommodation of any nature unless assist­ three feet to seven feet is old rotten ance is given, and these cases must receive tarpaulin. During any heavy storms the prior attention. water races through the bedrooms; they are "It is regretted accommodation cannot still damp from a storm that passed over be offered at this stage." 12 months ago. The Minister said yesterday that people with "Our children are seldom without a cold, a roof over their heads were not entitled to even in the summer. We have three small priority in the allocation of houses. All I children, and my wife is pregnant with a can say is that if the roofs over the heads of fourth. the people whose cases I have cited debar them from obtaining a home, or entitle them "Besides my family and I, there are three only to a low priority, I shudder to think of other adults living here. the conditions suffered by people who merit a "When I interviewed the Housing Com­ high priority. In the circumstances, how can mission, I was informed that an inspector the Treasurer cheerfully get up and figura­ would be sent out to inspect our present tively speaking, take us on a conducted tour living quarters. However, to date, we of Queensland. When deserving cases such haven't seen hide nor hair of one. I as those I have mentioned exist, how can he was also told that the empty houses in airily dismiss the matter by saying he doubts Inala are kept in reserve, in case of fires whether the houses are required. We have to other dwellings. However, this excuse heard Government members speaking of the doesn't hold water because there are too construction of palatial blocks, of luxury many empty houses in Inala and also the flats. We listened to a dissertation on that Housing Commission must be expecting an subject this afternoon. Those flats will not awful lot of fires. solve the problem with which many people "From the text of this letter you can see find themselves confronted. how urgent is our need for decent accom­ At 9.30 p.m., modation. "So we appeal to your sense of fair play, Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Under the pro­ and request that you, in your fullest visions of Standing Order No. 307 and Ses­ capacity, help us in our dire need." sional Order agreed to by the House on 13 October, I shall now proceed to put the Mr. Beardmore: Why didn't you build Resolution under discussion and all other houses when rou had an opportunity? Resolutions not already agreed to by the Mr. SHERRINGTON: The Government are House. saying they have solved the housing problem. Resolution 7-The Treasurer and Housing The following letter is on similar lines­ -agreed to. "We are living under shocking conditions Resolutions 8 to 20, both inclusive, agreed at the moment. The three of us live and sleep to. Ways and Means [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1809

WAYS AND MEANS APPROPRIATION BILL No. 2

OPENING OF COMMITIEE FIRST READING (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, A Bill, founded on the Resolutions Clayfield, in the chair) reported from the Committee of Ways and Means, was introduced and read a first time. Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth-Treas­ urer and Minister for Housing): I move- "(a) That, towards making good the SECOND READING Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ service of the year 1960-1961, a further sum not exceeding £51,497,821 be granted Treasurer and Minister for Housing) (9.38 out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of p.m.): I move- Queensland exclusive of the moneys stand­ "That the Bill be now read a second ing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account. time." "(b) That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the This is the final Appropriation Bill for the service of the year 1960-1961, a further year and it appropriates the estimated sum not exceeding £49,586,890 be granted requirements for 1960-1961, the Estimates of from the Trust and Special Funds. which have been considered in detail by the "(c) That, towards making good the Committee of Supply over the past few Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the weeks. It also provides for the unforseen service of the year 1960-1961, a further expenditure incurred during 1959-1960 under sum not exceedmg £15,220,000 be granted Executive authority but without Parlia­ from the moneys standing to the credit mentary appropriation. Details are con­ of the Loan Fund Account. tained in Parliamentary Papers that have "(d) That, towards making good the been circulated. Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the service of the year 1959-1960, a supple­ The Bill also provides for the Vote on mentary sum not exceeding £2.022,312 Account, which facilitates the conduct of 7s. 4d. be granted out of the Consolidated affairs of the State between 30 June, 1961, Revenue Fund of Queensland exclusive and the date on which the reassembled of the moneys standing to the credit of Parliament will be presented with a fresh the Loan Fund Account. Appropriation Bill to provide for a further "(e) That, towards making good the period of Supply. Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the service of the year 1959-1960, a supple­ Certain expenditures are appropriated by mentary sum not exceeding £1,893,757 the relevant Acts of Parliament and payment 17s. 4d. be granted from the Trust and is made without further legislative approval. Special Funds. These payments for 1960-1961 are estimated "(f) That, towards making good the to aggregate £17,645,760 and are set out in Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the detail in parts A to E of the schedule to service of the year 1959-1960, a supple­ the Bill. mentary sum not exceeding £1,181,516 lls. 10d. be granted from the moneys The estimated requirements for 1960-1961 standing to the credit of the Loan Fund are contained in parts F, G, and H and are- Account. £ "(g) That, towards making good the F Consolidated Revenue Fund 92,497,821 Supply granted to Her Majesty, on G Trust and Special Funds . . 79,586,890 account, for the service of the year 1961- 1962, a sum not exceeding £18,000,000 be H Loan Fund . . 29,220,000 granted out of the Consolidated Revenue towards which Supply totalling £85,000,000 Fund of Queensland exclusive of the was previously granted. moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account. This Supply was provided in November, "(h) That, towards making good the 1959- Supply granted to Her Majesty, on account, £ for the service of the year 1961-1962, a Consolidated Revenue sum not exceeding £13,000,000 be granted Fund 16,000,000 from the Trust and Special Funds. Trust and Special Funds 12,000,000 "(i) That, towards making good the Loan Fund 4,000,000 Supply granted to Her Majesty, on account, for the service of the year 1961-1962 a and in August, 1960, shortly after this sum not exceeding £4,000,000 be granted Parliament commenced its session- from the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account." £ Consolidated Revenue Motion agreed to. Fund 25,000,000 Resolutions reported, received, and agreed Trust and Special Funds 18,000,000 to. Loan Fund 10,000,000 1810 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

The Vote on Account of 1961-1962 is I understood from the Opposition Whip contained in Clause 2 of the Bill and corn- that there was an arrangement between the prises- two Whips that the discussion on the £ Estimates should go through to a certain stage Consolidated Revenue and that there might be some discussion on Fund 18,000,000 main roads, mines, and electricity. In the Trust and Special Funds 13,000,000 meantime, apparently, the members of the Loan Fund 4,000,000 Liberal Party decided that they were not going to allow the hon. member for Gregory £35,000,000 to attack the hon. member for Ashgrove and support the Minister for Mines, because the That compares with the £32,000,000 that was hon. member for Windsor rose to his feet and passed for the corresponding period last year. spoke for 40 minutes, to be closely followed This Vote on Account will provide Supply by the hon. member for Kurilpa, who also during July and August next, pending the spoke for 40 minutes, and then the Minister passing of a further Appropriation Bill. for Public Works and Local Government spent 40 minutes of his time reading a rather As I have indicated, there is an increase of mysterious document of which I know noth­ £3,000,000 over the provision for the current ing. I fully expected him to go out to the year, and there are two main factors respon­ Library and get some other documents to sible for this increase. The first is the effect enable him to continue his speech. I do not of the marginal increases, and the second is know how far we can go with these arrange­ the expected acceleration in expenditure on ments; but the procedure certainly has been the Mt. Isa railway project. knocked about in the last few days. At 5 past That sets out the background of the Bill 9 the other night, when the Treasurer asked now before the House, and there is only one for permission to reply on the following day other matter to which I wish to make brief to the debate on his Estimates, 55 minutes reference. It was raised in the concluding were lost to people like the hon. member for stages of the debate on the Resolutions, and Nudgee and the hon. member for the hon. member for Nudgee sought infor­ Salisbury-- mation about when the work to provide sewerage in the Zillmere Housing Commis­ Mr. Smith: That was under an agreement sion area would be carried out. I did not hear with your own Leader. any word of thanks from him to the Govern­ Mr. LLOYD: I understand that, but the ment for the arrangements they have made to Leader of the Opposition would not have allow this to take place, but that does not thought that the next day the Treasurer deter me from giving him the information. would speak for about 2 hours 25 minutes These are the arrangements that have been in reply to a very short debate. If we make made with the Brisbane City Council, in arrangements, let us make them properly. terms of which we will provide £292,220 for If we suit the convenience of hon. members the Zillmere sewerage scheme outside the opposite, let them act fairly and extend council's loan-subsidy allocation- at least some consideration to hon. members on this side. Year Amount £ Mr. Ramsden interjected. 1961-1962 111,090 1962-1963 71,050 Mr. LLOYD: The hon. member for 1963-1964 77,700 Merthyr himself was partly at fault. It 1964-1965 32,380 appeared to be a deliberate attempt to pre­ vent the hon. member for Gregory from The work will be started next financial speaking on the Estimates of the Depart­ year, and the preliminary outline by the ments of Development and Mines, Main council, of which the Government have Roads, and Electricity. The members of the approved, calls for the bulk of the expenditure Liberal Party, of course, all speak together, in the first year, fairly heavy expenditure in particularly when it prevents a member the second and third years, and the remainder of the Country Party from saying what he in the fourth year. That is the information the wants to say. As long as members of the hon. member sought. Liberal Party can attempt to glorify them­ Mr. Melloy: Thank you. selves in some base method they are happy. They like to pretend that they are the Mr. HILEY: Having given that infor­ bright boys. mation, I have nothing further to add. There is another matter in relation to Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (9.44 p.m.): I am the debate on the Estimates about which very grateful to the Treasurer for his brief I think it is necessary that something should remarks on the second reading of the be said. I do not think the Premier would Appropriation Bill. It is in marked contrast deliberately enter into any agreement that to the attitude adopted by some Ministers in he did not intend to keep-in fact, I am introducing their Estimates, and by some hon. sure he would not-and I am certain that members on the Government benches during the Treasurer would also be in that category. this evening's debate. I wish to refer briefly But if an agreement is made it should be to a few instances. kept. Hon. members on this side deliberately Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NoVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1811 cut the length of their speeches to a mini­ to a minimum to allow the debate to reach mum to enable the debate to have greater the stage where we could talk on Estimates coverage, but hon. members opposite, who that had not previously been discussed. I never have anything to say that is of advan­ think that is usually the position, so why tage to the State, spoke on a subject that should hon. members on the Government we had already discussed for three days. side insist on repeating over and over again what has already been said. The Premier promised that the Estimates to be debated this year would be those Mr. Nicklin: Have you never seen that that had not been discussed last year. That happen here before? was done, and it is a method that gives hon. members an opportunity to discuss fully Mr. LLOYD: No, it is an entirely new the Estimates of all departments from year to procedure. year. Perhaps it was only accidental, but there If I may come now to the Appropriation was insufficient time for hon. members to Bill itself, it seems that, so far in this finan­ analyse the various departmental reports cial year, the Treasurer is in a much better before the relevant debates commenced. Per­ financial position than he was in the pre­ haps it was owing to an accident within the vious two years. I will give the figures as administration of the departments or because they have been disclosed and compare them the Government Printing Office could not have with the two previous years, with the excess the annual reports printed in time, but if expenditure of the Government decreasing we could have an earlier notification of which to a considerable extent over those two pre­ Estimates are being debated-- vious years. It might be that the financial position of the State has improved to such Mr. Nicklin: You had the lot before we an extent that it lends some force to the started this time. argument we have advanced that insufficient money has been allocated for housing and Mr. LLOYD: I understand that last year iuigation, and for railway expenditure. we were given 10 days' notice. The comparison for the three years 1958- Mr. Nicklin: It was over a week this 1959 onwards is- time. Year Amount of Excess Mr. LLOYD: That gives greater weight Expenditure to the suggestion I am going to make. £ 2,818,322 In future, when the Government have the 1958-1959 information for the Estimates of the depart­ 1959-1960 3,051,019 ments any time before they are actually dis­ 1960-1961 1,893,699 cussed, surely it would be possible to instruct That shows a considerable reduction in the the Under Secretaries or the senior officers Government's budgeting for the first few that they must put their annual reports in months of this year. No doubt the in time to enable members of the House t'l examine them. Treasurer may have some logical explanation for it. It could be that the moneys from Mr. Hiley: They were so instructed. the Commonwealth are coming through much more quickly than in the past. There may Mr. LLOYD: Apparently there has been be some explanation for it, but if the flow some mishap along the line somewhere, of moneys is showing an improvement over because in many cases we came into this previous years then the budgetary position Chamber on the day on which an Estimate of the Government is much better than we was due to be discussed and the annual report were led to believe. was tabled and printed only that morning. In such circumstances it is very difficult for I wish to make reference to one or two Opposition members to examine them care­ matters that were discussed during the Budget fully and make worth-while contributions debate, particularly to what the Treasurer to the debates on the Estimates. It is an said in the Financial Statement in reply to eJ\acting task to go through a full report. my remarks on the finances of the Railway One of the advantages we have gained from De_partment. being in Opposition is a realisation of the The Treasurer analysed the whole of the g~eat difficulty the Leader of the Opposition and his party have without the knowledge Loan Fund operations of Queensland and and the advice of the large numbers of public explained that he has taken greater notice of servants who are at the Government's dis­ the moneys that were being spent and that posal. would give a return. In other words, he has reduced expenditure on such projects as Mr. Nicklin: The Auditor-General's report r2ilways and irrigation, which have not such was tabled very early in the session. a returnable element I suppose, as forestry, electricity and housing, which naturally must Mr. LLOYD: I appreciate that, because it show some return and could, in fact, if he is a very informative document. wished to extend net expenditure from Loan I wished to make those two points. I Fund, be of some value to him. I said that deplore the attitude of some hon. members the great proportion of railway losses was en the Government benches tonight. It had incurred in the Southern Division and that been arranged that hon. members on this in fact in the Central and Northern Divi­ side of the House would cut their speeches sions the department was showing a profit. 1812 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

In other smaller sections losses were sus­ there has been an increase in production in tained. He made much of the fact that I said that area under closer settlement. The the expenditure on quadrup!ication had been quantity of grain being carried from the curtailed almost completely. I used the word Central Highlands district has increased to "quadruplication" in a broad sense to include such an extent that it is providing the Rail­ electrification. He denied that there had way Department with an opportunity to been reduced expenditure on quadrup!ication expand its revenue, but this expansion may in the past 12 months. In a subsequent not continue because of the savage increase debate, however, he admitted that work on of 20 per cent. in the freight rates. Most quadruplication had been confined solely to grain-growers must be reaching the stage the Corinda line. where the production of sorghum may Although I am dealing with this subject become uneconomical, and this increase of only briefly, it is very important having 20 per cent. brings about £2 6s. a ton increase regard to the need for secondary industries. in the charge for the carriage of grain from We cannot expect industries if we curtail Springsure and Capella to Gladstone. That is expenditure on transport facilities. Expendi­ very serim1s for these growers, who are pre­ ture on large projects may not show an pared to utilise the railway services. If they immediate return, but private enterprise is can find a better alternative means of transport thereby given an incentive to establish and they must use it, because they must secure a expand industries. The present state of living from their grain production. affairs has arisen because of the financial This is a large and growing industry, with relationship of the Commonwealth and the States. State Governments cannot plan for great potential for development through over­ the future. A state with full sovereign seas trade with the United Kingdom and powers should be able to undertake develop­ other countries. The prospects are such that !llental. works in order to promote secondary the whole of the industry could be expanded rndustnes. In turn they will bring further and developed to a much greater extent than development and increased population. at present, but it cannot continue with the high charges being imposed on the industry My argument was that, if we are to avoid which make it uneconomical for them to a perpetuation of losses by the Railway produce grain. Department, there should be a continuance of expenditure on capital works for the Rail­ This matter should concern the Treasurer w~y Department. During the war years the particularly. He has been largely instrumental ~

Mr. LLOYD: I do not know how often I the true implementation of Labour policy. have to repeat a statement before the hon. From time to time we have been accused of member absorbs it, but I will repeat what being numerous things-that we would I have already said. Pending the construc­ socialise the world if we were given the tion of the alumina plant at Weipa, there is opportunity. In many of his wild statements no objection to the export of raw bauxite and fantasies the Minister for Labour and ore anywhere in the world. However, Industry has said that we are allied with the immediately the alumina plant is constructed Communist Party, and that our policy is very in accordance with the contract, the restric­ similar to theirs. Queensland's electricity tions contained in the contract should be undertakings afford me a wonderful oppor­ enforced by the Government. That is my tunity to state clearly what Labour's defined attitude, and I think it would be the attitude policy has been in the past, and must be in of all hon. members except those Govern­ the future. It is all very well for many of our ment members who, in the meantime, have political opponents to say that if we were advocated the export of bauxite ore, irre­ returned as the Government, either in the spective of whether or not the alumina plant State or the Federal sphere, we would is constructed. Three years seems to me, socialise everything. People get the impression and to other hon. members on this side of that we would take over their industries, the House, quite a long period. indeed any business at all. Attempts were Mr. Nicklin: Well over £2,000,000 has made some years ago to nationalise some of been spent on investigations up to date. Australia's industries and subsequent events have now proved that this was rather Mr. LLOYD: I realise that, and I believe essential for Australia's development. But they contracted to spend more within a because of the framing of the Australian certain number of years than the £2,000,000 Constitution it was impossible to carry out the they have already spent. I think a clause in nationalisation. Hon. members opposite talk the contract sets out the amount they have about Government butcher shops and the contracted to spend. other fields into which the State Government All these statements emanating from the have entered at some time in the past. We Premier and Ministers from time to time do will call that socialisation; in actual fact it is not give a great deal. of satisfaction to any­ socialisation, but it is not socialisation of all body. Immediately it was stated that the industry-it was socialism in competition and aluminium refinery would be constructed in failed only by reason of bad management. New Zealand the Premier said, "That does not mean that there will not be an aluminium Let us look at what has happened with refinery in Queensland." I realise that cir­ electricity in Queensland. In 1946 the cumstances might change in a period of 20 regionalised plan for electricity in Queensland or 30 years, but we cannot look forward came into operation. The State was divided to the establishment of an aluminium refinery into regions, and the people living in the in Queensland within two or three years, or various regions were given the opportunity to even in the next 10 years. We may possibly elect their own regional boards who could have an aluminium refinery in the dim, dark, conduct their own administration, with merely distant years to come, but I think we have a Government representative on them. Let us to stand behind that contract with Comalco consider the wonderful expansion and and see that they establish this alumina plant. development that has taken place since then. The Commissioner's report shows that, since Mr. Walsh: Under the agreement, the Gov­ 1946, in the vicinity of £40,000,000 has been ment would have to give their approval to invested in electricity undertakings in Queens­ the export of any raw bauxite. land. What a wonderful effort has been :me.~~ Mr. LLOYD: That is correct. in the development of electrification and the extension of that facility to all parts of Mr. Wa!sh: It will be interesting to see Queensland, to the great advantage of both whether they give that approval. primary and secondary industry! People who Mr. HHey: During the construction of the talk about private enterprise would be the alumina plant, the Government have already first to admit that private industry could not indicated that they will. have afforded to extend to the people of Queensland, and the industries of Queensland, Mr. LLOYD: I think that was indicated the benefits of electricity that regional by the Minister when he introduced the Bill. planning has been able to provide. Another section of the Minister's depart­ We look forward to the further expansion ment is one that is really worth while of electricity undertakings in the future. I discussing briefly, but this is the only oppor­ understand that there are plans for the tunity we have had to say anything about development of electricity undertakings in the Queensland's electricity undertakings because Collinsville and Callide districts. If that can of the attitude of the hon. member for be done we shall give the projects our bless­ Windsor and other hon. members opposite in ings, but unfortunately at the present time a the debate on the Resolution. number of difficulties stand in the way. The I think we should consider Queensland's Government are unable to get the necessary electricity undertakings partly on a political finance to carry them out. From time to time basis. I say that because in the regionalising the Treasurer has given us an indication of of Queensland's electricity supplies we saw the possible future loan programmes for Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1815

Queensland, but it is not a very happy story. of the Australian Labour Party have in With the financial policy of the Federal their platform, which is very often misinter­ Government we have been placed in a preted by members of the Government, some position of having our public works pro­ acknowledgement of private profit, although grammes at a standstill, while all the invest­ we do not think it should be the ments in the other sectors of our economy are prime motive of human activity. If continually expanding. I think in this year's we are to populate this country properly Budget the Treasurer mentioned that the let us foster that partnership, but if we have States had been more or less able to break to exercise restraint or restriction on private the £230,000,000 or £220,000,000 barrier of industry then we will do so. That, purely loan allocations from the Commonwealth and simply, is the policy of the Australian Government for the first time since 1953. In Labour Party, regardless of the misinterpre­ a period of seven years the loan allocation tations or distorted versions that are very for capital expenditure by every State often put forward. Government in Australia had been brought down to a minimum at a time when our Mr. Hughes: This country was built up economy was expanding so rapidly that we by the small business man. were unfortunately overtaken by several Mr. LLOYD: I am happy to have that inflationary periods. interjection by the hon. member for Kurilpa, If we are to consider that period of seven because unfortunately, at the present time, years, I think it will be found that during because of the growth of mergers and that time, with the growth of our economy, monopolies, the small business man is quickly there should have been a parallel growth disappearing from the economy of Australia. in all forms of large developmental schemes That is one of the unfortunate features of such as has taken place in other countries the last few years, and it has occurred only of the world. We have not had that growth because the people who control our economy and, although Australia is in a peculiar and the financial position of Australia-the position, I believe we can draw a comparison people in Canberra-have allowed the trend between Australia and the other countries to continue without restriction, while all of the world. other countries in the world are placing some restriction on private enterprise. Every We cannot base our economic policy on other country apart from Australia exercises that which is practised in the older countries control, yet it is said of us that we interfere of the world, say, the United Kingdom too much with business. or the United States of America, or those on the Continent. They can, by means of Mr. Hughes interjected. breaking down their public expenditure, break Mr. LLOYD: If the hon. member for down inflationary trends, and allow the Kurilpa is in agreement with me let him private sector of their economy to go along adopt Labour's policy and do something slowly and without much interruption. I about it. He is in the Liberal Party. I,et believe that in Australia we have a peculiar him bring pressure to bear on the Common­ set of circumstances. We are mainly wealth Government and force them to take undeveloped; we are under-populated, we some actton. It they refuse to take action, are in an isolated position, and we have let him show his courage by voting against a greater responsibility to future generations them and helping to defeat them at the in relation to production. If we are to next election. face our respon~ibi'i:;.o>s and obligations, we must exercise some form of restraint on The hon. member for Mt. Gravatt made expenditure in the private sector of our a very deeliberate and good speech on economy. restrictive trade practices and monopoly con­ In other words, unless we are able to trol, but the real test of his sincerity is expand our developmental works we will be whether he will continue to support a Gov­ unable to receive the additional population ernment that refuse to take notice of his we need, and unless we expand industry, views. The same can be said of the hon. of which members on the Government side member for Kurilpa. speak so glibly and so often, there is very Mr. Ramsden: Sir Garfield Barwick is little chance of our being able to absorb going to introduce that legislation. heavy industrial expansion in Queensland­ or in any of the other States for that Mr. LLOYD: He qualified his statement. matter-unless there is electricity for power, He said some form of legislation would be suitable transport, and availability of markets. introduced, but what form will it take and All those things have to be provided before when will it be introduced? Will there we can give people the encouragement and be any immediate control over monopolies? incentive to come here. It is essential that the Commonwealth I believe that the majority of members Government, by constitutional amendment, of the Australian Labour Party view this should be given the right to exercise some matter as a partnership between govern­ control over expenditure in the private sec­ mental enterprise and private enterprise, and tor. Unless that right is given, the present that partnership should continue with both position will remain unaltered. The sectors pursuing a parallel course. Members Treasurer is concerned at the effect the 1816 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2 financial policy of the Commonwealth Gov­ up, in many cases to £1,000 a block. This ernment will have on loan raising in constant acceleration is brought about Queensland. The action taken by them through the operations of speculators and may divert additional money to Common­ the high demand created by the many young wealth loans, but I pose the question whether people in the community. Mostly young the increase in the bank overdraft rate to couples are the cause. They are unable to 7 per cent. will have a serious effect on pay the full purchase price for the land, local-authority and semi-governmental loan and buy it on a deposit. In many cases the raisings. We have been fortunate in the deposit is not even 10 per cent.; it is as low past three years in that we have been able as 5 per cent. to raise 100 per cent. of the loan require­ It is the experience of many agents that ments of semi-governmental authorities. the young people who buy land on 5 per Mr. Hiley: Your Leader raised that cent. deposit make their repayments for question and I replied to it and indicated periods of up to six months, and then some­ that in my judgment there will be four in thing happens and they are unable to con­ a row. tinue with the payments. They do not know their civil rights and they pass the land Mr. LLOYD: I make the point that we back to the subdivider, and quite often the definitely require some form of control by land is sold again and again. The demand is the Commonwealth Government over expen­ not a real demand; it is artificially created, diture in the private sector, so that we can and it is that demand that continues to keep develop this State in the way and to the the value of land at a high level. extent it should be developed. I do not know what can be done to Hon. members have referred to the grave solve this problem, but I believe that the danger to Australia from communist Government should expand their present countries to the north. We could in time policy of making Crown land available to be seriously embarrassed. I do not think we young people who wish to build homes. In should be aggressive. We should endeavour Brisbane, and in the country centres of to trade and live with these people, but Queensland particularly, vast areas of Crown we must at all times be in a position to land could be leased on a perpetual town defend ourselves, and we cannot defend our­ lease basis to many young couples who wish selves unless we develop and populate the country. to build homes. The land could be leased, and by reviving the old workers' homes scheme Mr. Smith: Those hon. members who we could give these couples an opportunity wanted to speak earlier-have they given up to build their own homes. That scheme their desire to speak? would have particular application to the western towns where the housing conditions Mr. LLOYD: The hon. member for are very bad for many people. We could Windsor has said enough already. combine that with an attempt to raise the I have only one matter to refer to before deposits required from people buying land. concluding, that is, inflation in land values. Just as we contended during the discussions As land values affect the housing of our on the Bill relating to hire purchase, I believe that sometimes people have to be people, the matter is one of serious impor­ protected from themselves. If we were to tance. We must do our utmost to overcome place a minimum deposit on the purchase of the problem. It is something that has been land we would take away a great deal of created only during the past three or four the present demand for land, which is main­ years, and it makes me wonder whether it taining the high level of prices. In other stemmed from the public outbursts that words, by this process we could reduce the occurred when it was discovered that many price of land, and the problem is so bad !an~ developmental co~panies were receiving that something must be done. their finance from mvestors in Asiatic countries who were offering to lend money Mr. Hughes: There is a great deal of to the companies, and of course hoping to speculation through the small deposits, and ~ake as much profit as possible from their that is setting a false value. mvestment. It was stated to me the other day that one subdivider used as an excuse Mr. LLOYD: There is speculation because for the growth of the fictitious values of of the small deposits, and there is the other subdivided land, which is sold at a minimum view, that is, where land is purchased on a price, the fact that it was necessary for small deposit, and the buyers find they are them to pay from 20 to 27 per cent. interest unable to continue with the repayments and on the money they borrow to subdivide land. the land is handed back and sold over and It becomes simply a matter of making money over again. That has happened on many a purely commercial commodity which is occasions, but I do not intend to go further highly undesirable. ' into that subject at the moment. When land is subdivided, there is no By those two methods we would have an auction sale as we normally expected years opportunity of opening up new areas of land ago. Immediately the land is improved and for young people in country areas, and we subdivided, a minimum price is put on the would reduce the demand for homes in the poorest allotment, and then the price goes speculative process that is continuing at Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NovEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1817 present. We would thus enable young couples that hits the consumer, the amount will be to purchase land at a more reasonable price £480,000,000. I do not say that idly, because than they can today. it is a statement by the Tariff Board and The Treasurer said yesterday-and I align can be confirmed. How inflationary is that myself with the hon. member for Salisbury element of costing in the community alone! on this-that if we built 6,000 homes in The Treasurer spoke the other night of Queensland many of them might remain pricing our primary industries off the world empty. I am sure that if most of them were markets. The very increasing of interest rates built in country areas every one of the 6,000 and imposing inflationary forms of taxation would be occupied and rented by the Govern­ will tend to increase the costs of production ment without trouble. From the housing and will greatly help to price primary indus­ conditions I have seen in many western tries off the world market. towns, I believe they could be absorbed in Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (10.39 p.m.): I those areas alone. In Brisbane some might am sure the Treasurer will feel a sense of be left empty. If they were built over-night relief when he gets this routine measure down here, probably they would not all be through tonight after having had to sit here taken. for many days listening to the various points But there could be a better approach to raised in the debates and having to handle the problem than the mere statement that the maze of figures he is obliged to in his we have almost overcome the housing position. I am sure that he must be, as I shortage. There are many people, particularly used to be many times, somewhat tired of young people, who want homes and want the discussions that take place. them urgently. The problem has not been I must say that I listened with some interest solved. If it had been, the allocation for to the debate during the last two days, par­ housing this year would not be necessary and ticularly the travel talk by the Minister for the money should not be diverted from, say, Development, Mines, Main Roads, and Elec­ the railways. tricity, who has just returned from Japan, and I do not doubt the Treasurer's figure that to the verbal cruises that the Treasurer took the normal rate of expansion of homes in us on up the coast, his fishing trips and his Queensland would be from 7,000 to 8,000 a tour of boat harbours, and so on. year. He has the benefit of the advice and Mr. Hanlon: The best part of Mr. Evans's calculations of the Commonwealth Statistician trip was when he "sailed" into the Minister -but my own figure would be closer to for Public Lands and the hon. member for 10,000 than 8,000. Ashgrove. Mr. Hiley: If your figure of 10,000 is right, Mr. W ALSH: I should like to deal with from your period in office you are going back some of the matters that the hon. member 3,000 homes a year. for Baroona has raised, but I realise that my Mr. LWYD: When we were in office we time is limited. It is a pity that the debate built as many as 11,000 homes in one year. has reached its concluding stages, because now that the Minister for Labour and Industry Mr. Hiley: One year! has returned we could probaly have enjoyed another travel talk from him on his trip to Mr. LLOYD: The peak period of home­ Honolulu. It could have been more or less building in Australia was in 1952 or 1953. his swan-song before he takes up the position Unfortunately the Minister's colleagues in of Agent-General on the other side of the Canberra thought that the rate of building world, thus enabling the Treasurer to take construction, particularly home construction, over the leadership of the Liberal Party. I in Australia was inflationary and decided to am also looking forward to the Minister for increase interest rates and reduce the building Education and Migration making a trip over­ rate. The same will apply here. We are seas next year, despite the fact that the finding at present that much of the apparent Director-General of Education has already prosperity comes from the fact that the gone overseas. No doubt the Minister will building industry is prosperous. With the have something to tell us about his travels growth of multi-storey buildings, particularly next year. in the city area, there is this aura of progress. Mr. Windsor: How many trips did you We must look again at the anti-inflationary have? plans of the Commonwealth Government. It has always struck me as being rather para­ Mr. W ALSH: l will let the hon. member doxical that, whenever the Commonwealth for Ithaca work that out for himself. Government attack inflation, they appear to I thought it rather strange that in an era concentrate on increasing costs, or inflating, when, if we can take notice of the Press to defeat inflation. They have always and the critics of the Federal Government, increased sales tax or some other form of there is talk of devaluing the pound and taxation, or increased interest rates, all of of the economy of the country being on the which increase the costs of production. This rocks we should appear to be content to year, with increases in wages, the payroll discu~s in the debate on the Financial State­ tax and sales tax will net the Commonwealth ment the Estimates, and the Appropriation Government some £240,000,000. By the time Bill, the matters that have been discussed. 1818 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

I wish to refer briefly to a matter to which facts. In this instance he has not. Anyhow, I referred recently, that is, the proposal to I have said that I feel very strongly about appoint Mr. Creighton, as announced in the this matter. The Premier would know what Press, to the position of chief assessor in the I stand for in this respect. It would not Department of Public Lands. I made my matter whether it was Creighton or anybody point the other day, and I am very emphatic else-having breached their trust, I complain. about it; so much so that I mentioned to I remember over a long period of years the Leader of the Q.L.P. that, having regard under the Labour Government that if a to the principles for which I stand, I even railway employee stole even only a packet felt like writing to the Governor personally of cigarettes there was no way in the world and drawing his attention to the matter. I he could be re-employed in the Railway think it is very serious that a man who Department. That was following the policy has committed the breaches of trust of which laid down by me in 1945 or thereabouts. I he has been proved guilty-they are on should imagine that the present Government record in the journals of this House-should are continuing the procedure followed by the even be considered for appointment to that Leader of the Opposition when he succeeded position. I know that some comment has me as Minister for Transport. I can remem­ appeared in the Press stating that approval ber a case of a young lad who stole only has come from the Branch Secretary of the 6d. worth of stamps. Out he had to go, and Australian Workers' Union. He is entitled he could not get back. In this instance, to his opinion, just as I am entitled to mine, appointing Creighton would be a tragedy for but I venture the opinion that if an officer the future of public administration in of the A.W.U. committed a similar breach, Queensland. there is no way in the world that Mr. Edgar Williams or any other responsible officer of In the brief time at my disposal I should that union, or the executive of that union, like to make short reference to the Federal would countenance his re-employment. Again Government's recent decision to implement I question the right of the Government in certain economic proposals to enable them . this matter. to direct the economy of the country. If the Treasurer or I were in their position we I cannot vouch for this, but the Treasurer would be looking about to accept the respon­ will know that it has actually happened. I sibility to impose some conditions to meet understand that a public servant was recently the situation confronting Australia. But I put on the mat and questioned about having am not so much concerned at the moment divulged information to a member of the about the effects of the Federal Govern­ A.L.P. I am not complaining about that hav­ ment's proposals on the economy of the ing been done. If certain information was nation, because I have not got the time, but alleged to have been conveyed to a political I am concerned about the cause of it all. party in this House, irrespective of the party, That is why I think the people should know and the Government eventually tracked down the true story. Any suggestion that the :he public servant and questioned him and State should hand over to the Common­ then found ways and means of getting rid of wealth their powers in the control of hire­ him, that is the Government's business, I purchase activities should be resisted by this suppose. But if on the one hand a subordin­ Government or any other Government. The ate official, such as the person to whom I Federal Government had complete power have referred, has been paraded by the Gov­ under the Banking Act to control these mat­ ernment because he was allaged to have con­ ters, but it was they who opened the gate veyed information to a member of a political when in February, 1953, the then Common­ party in this House, it is very difficult for wealth Treasurer, Sir Arthur Fadden, me to understand how the Government can exempted major hire-purchase companies justify their action in the case of Creighton. from the operation of the 1945 Banking Act. The Federal Treasurer must have thought Mr. Hiley: Are you asserting that the that the activities of hire-purchase com­ Government have decided to appoint panies, such as the A.G.C. and the I.A.C. Creighton? and seven other hire purchase companies, Mr. WALSH: No, I have made that clear. were in accordance with the principles laid down in the Banking Act, and that they Mr. HHey: This is purely an Aunt Sally? were engaged in the essential features of banking. He must have thought so to pro­ Mr. WALSH: No. Any comment I have ceed to exempt them, and they must have made here is based on a Press report. I thought so to make application for exemp­ know the capacity of the Treasurer and the tion. However, that opened the gate. Government in general to fly kites. I have Following that the Menzies Government flown a few myself in the past. It is not amended the Banking Act in 1953 and took a bad procedure as long as your kite is away from the Commonwealth Bank the constmcted on sound premises. power to control investments by banks. Mr. Hiley: The first mention in the Press Apart from the control over advances by followed your speech here. banks, they took away from the Common­ wealth Bank the power tb control the invest­ Mr. WALSH: I beg the Treasurer's ments by private trading banks. That was pardon! Every hon. member would disagree followed by the issue of licences to various with him. I am sorry to have to correct private trading banks to operate as savings him on this because generally he sticks to banks. Having got the deck cleared. Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1819 they then engaged in these wider rami­ savings banks, the Treasurer himself will fications of hire-purchase-also having agree that the Commonwealth Government opened the gates for the private bank­ created the factors that have assisted in ing companies by specifically limiting the bringing about the present unsatisfactory Commonwealth Bank's activities in position of hire-purchase activities. advances for hire-purchase transactions. I can recall that, under the previous After all, the ·Commonwealth Bank, as a Labour Government when the matter was bank, was the first in the field of hire pur­ raised by the Queensland representatives­ chase, although I think that about 1956 Mr. Gair was Premier at the time-Mr. the restrictions were so great on them Menzies more or less wiped the States off. because of gm,ernmental policy that they He said the Commonwealth had no power; were even barred from making any advances that it was a matter for the States. of finance for >:etail sales of private motor cars and simila1 motor vehicles, which repre­ Five or six years ago the States saw these sent about two -thirds of all hire-purchase difficulties and asked the Commonwealth advances. for some co-operation but now, having, as I say, opened the stable door and done all Mr. Hiiton: Their rate of interest was the damage that has been done in the mean­ always lower than that of the other banks. time, they have resorted to very drastic measures. There is no question about that, Mr. W ALSH: That is true. As the hon. as I think the Treasurer will agree. Another member for Carnarvon interjects, their rate condition they are imposing is the forcing of interest was lower and that would be of life insurance companies and provident when they were operating from their indus­ societies to invest 30 per cent. of their funds trial finance section. in Government bonds. That legislation has Mr. Hiley: Did you say that the Common­ yet to come down and no doubt it will cause wealth Bank could advance no private finance much discussion within the Liberal Party, for motor vehicles? particularly since it stands for freedom and free enterprise. It would be regarded as Mr. WALSH: I am saying that they were cutting across one of the vital principles banned in 1956 from making advances for of their platform. No doubt the Treasurer that purpose. Whether they have since been will say that in this State we have always able to do it is another matter. All that insisted that the State Government Insurance the Treasurer has to do is to look at the Office should invest its funds in semi-govern­ figures and he will see that over a period of mental securities. That is very wise and I years, since about 1955, their figures have make no apology for it, but I say that the gone down and down whilst the other figures Commonwealth Government have got the have gone up ~.nd up. country into its present financial mess, hav­ ing regard to its internal economy. They Mr. Hiley: You may be right but all I could not be blamed for lower wool prices can say is that a public servant whom you or the fall in farm income from exports of would know exceedingly well bought his car primary products. But those things should on hire purchase through the Commonwealth have been foreseen by a Government that Bank. claimed to understand Australia's financial l\1r. WALSH: He may be a special custo­ position. mer. If the Treasurer will look through the I should like to hear the Treasurer's columns of the Press he will find that state­ exposition of this matter-not a political ment has been made by people occupying analysis but an exposition that the Treasurer more responsible positions than I do in public could, if he chose to, give on the very wide life. They have publicly state that those implications of the proposals that will be restrictions were put on the Commonwealth given effect to by the Commonwealth Govern­ Bank. ment if the legislation is passed by the Senate. As I said, having opened the gates, the Although much is said about the States Commonwealth Government are now crying having to do something about it and the that they have no constitutional power. I Commonwealth Government having no say that it is up to the States to put the constitutional power, I put it to the Premier responsibility back onto the Commonwealth through you, Mr. Speaker, that he should not and place the hire-purchase companies under -I have said emphatically before that I the control of the Reserve Bank or the would not-surrender to the Commonwealth Central Bank, or whatever particular phase one power that now reposes in the State. They of banking operations controls banking cannot be trusted. today. I realise that the Commonwealth Trading Bank has been established since the Mr. Hiley: I do not think you can pick an Act was amended a few years ago and it argument with us on that. has been put on more or less the same basis of trading as the private banks. Mr. W ALSH: I only hope that the Treasurer's interjection reflects the attitude of Having opened the gates to exempting the Government to the suggestion that he hire-purchase companies and later withdraw­ Commonwealh would like the States to hand ing the control over investments by banks­ over these powers, even though at the present under any heading they might see fit-and time the Commonwealth Government have then granting licences for the operation of no such constitutional power. I realise that 1820 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2 the States, as Sovereign States, can transfer der whether there was any proper examina­ powers they possess to the Commonwealth tion of the trend in railway traffic control but I am not satisfied that the powers, having overseas at the time the decision was made been transferred, can be regained. to proceed with quadruplication. The evi­ dence from several other countries is that Mr. Hiley: They cannot. th_e modern system of traffic control, coupled with the use of automatic signalling, shows Mr. WALSH: That is my opinion. I do not that several of the great railway systems of pose as a legal man but I doubt whether that the world today are replacing four lines with can be done. t\\o, and two lines with one, and handling Mr. Hiley: There is power to cede, but no a bigger tonnage than ever on half the power to re-cede. amount of line, because they have learned the secret of getting a much greater usage Mr. W ALSH: I realise that that is so but from tracks than was possible under the it is well that the public should know these former methods. things. People are floundering around asking Mr. Lloyd: The geography of the country t~emselves why this has happened, but the would have a big influence on that. For SIJ?ple facts are a_s I outlined when dealing mstance, what would happen in one small With banks and hire-purchase companies. If area would not happen in Queensland. hon. members refer to J. B. Were's public­ ation in 1953, they will find in the notings Mr. HILEY: An instance that was brought that the Bank of New South Wales had a very forcibly to my notice this week con­ holding_ of approximately 40 per cent. in cerned Canada, where the transport problems Australian Guarantee Corporation. are not dissimilar to ours. We have here at present a very eminent visitor, a former At 11 p.m., lord Mayor of London, Sir Denys Lowson, Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Under the provis­ who gave us an extremely graphic picture of ions of Standing Order No. 307 and of the Canadian railways. He is a director of Sessional Order agreed to by the House on one of the railways there, and they have 13 October, the sitting will be extended to given effect to the policy I have mentioned. enable the Treasurer to make his speech in He told me quite gleefully that one of the reply, after which all questions necessary economic results was that they were handling for the passage of the remaining stages of the a bigger tonnage at less cost and were able to turn what bad been a barely balanced, Bill will be put without amendment or debate. or losing, economy into a profitable economy Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ by throwing quadruplication and dupli­ Treasurer and Minister for Housing) (11.1 cation over. They have longer passing loops, p.m.), in reply: I do not propose to delay the and they have a system-! cannot remember House for any great length of time, but there the exact term for it; the phrase that comes are two or three matters that I think warrant to me is "co-ordinated traffic control" but some word of explanation or an answer. The that is not the right term. Some hon. mem­ first raised by the Deputy Leader of the bers who may have done extensive reading Opposition was quadruplication. The tenor of on railway theory and practice may be able his remarks left me with the impression that to help me. It is a new system of traffic he thought the decision to limit in any way or control which, tied in with automatic signal­ retard the full quadruplication project would ling, allows trains to be spaced at much closer intervals while maintaining faster speeds; be against the best interests of the Railway even with dense loading traffic safety is main­ Dep~rtment. '!hat would be a fair summary, I thmk, of his observations. It is true that tained at a very high level. according to the report of the Commissioner, Mr. Lloyd interjected. at the moment tonnages carried by the rail­ ways are lower than the peak tonnages, and Mr. HILEY: That is so, and we are doing the number of passengers is fewer than both out here on the quadruplication system. formerly, but those things are only part of We have settled on the sector from Roma the problem. With a rising population even Street to Corinda. We are putting in not with an increased degree of road transport only the four lines, but also automatic sig­ competition we could expect that tonnages nalling to enable traffic to move on swiftly on and the number of passengers would start the basis of what has been learned from the to rise. But let us look at some other success in other parts of the world. It has trends that are important in considering this been found that if this system of traffic con­ trol is introduced-it is very expensive­ matter. In the first place, by the use of more quadruplicate and duplicate lines are not powerful locomotives, bigger trains are being needed because the double and single track hauled, and consequently fewer trains than can carry a very much heavier volume of previously move the same tonnages. traffic than was possible under the old That means that the frequency of trains~ system. because they are bigger-is not as great as it was when we had to handle the same tonna"e The hon. member for Kedron raised the with more and smaller trains. Even th';,t question of the quadruplication, or the expan­ might be offset by the rising population and sion, of the southern division line. Might I demand, but then we come to a study of suggest to him that he study where the loss what. happened o':erseas, and, quite candidly, originates. The report of the Commissioner laokmg back on It, I am beginning to won- of Railways shows quite clearly that the real Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1821 loss is suffered by passenger-class traffic and Mr. IDLEY: The same thing would hap­ that goods traffic is in fact breaking square. pen there because they are roughly compar­ Any analysis of the number of passengers able distances from the shipment port. At handled shows that it is dominantly in the Springsure there is the old property that t-.outhern division of the State. The real bulk was originaHy conducted by Mr. Ryan, of the passenger traffic lies in that division, after whom Ryan House on the corner of and because of the geography of the south­ Charlotte Street was named. He was a eastern division it is also an area where there lovely old gentleman, a very elderly man. are the greater number of short hauls. Mr. Burrows: Old Mick Ryan. Mr. Uoyd: Would electrification overcome that? Mr. HILEY: Yes, Mick Ryan. I was a boy and he was an elderly man. -We used to Mr. HILEY: It might, but electrified rail­ patronise the same barber and, by some ways are still an economic problem while extraordinary chance, I would either be this other problem exists of residential waiting for the chair while he was in it or density being as low as it is in Brisbane. It he would be waiting while I was in it, is somewhere about 14 to 16 people per and we yarned. I liked the old chap very occupied acre. A survey of the economics of much. electrified rail transport the world over shows that the higher the suburban density the bet­ Mr. Walsh: I didn't think you were as old ter chance you have of breaking even, and, as that. just as the city council in its transport respon­ sibility with its buses and its trams find it Mr. HILEY: I remember Mick very well. impossible to get just that density of loading He was a very old man then. to allow it to run them economically, we Mr. Burrows: He was an old man when find precisely the same with the railways. 1 he died. am inclined to think that, if we had the density, the economics of electric suburban Mr. IDLEY: Yes, about 84 _or 86. He railways would be vastly different from what was interested in a property known as it is with "scatterisation," which is one of Arcturus Downs. That property is being the features of the development of Queens­ conducted today by the estate. I think it land. is managed by a son-in-law of his, a solicitor in town, a Mr. Cronin, who is chairman Mr. Houston: Not only are we scattered, of the company. He is carrying out a work but we have the dead spots between the that points to the whole economic future developed areas. of the handling of coarse grains that are produced in remote areas where that very Mr. IDLEY: Exactly. factor would otherwise be a deterrent. Here Mr. Uoyd: It is a pity the systems could is the simple economics of it. Employing not be co-ordinated. the developing features of grain-lot feeding which, after the example of Arcturus Downs, Mr. HILEY: We are all for co-ordination. is commanding interest in many of the areas We have already indicated to the city council where grain can be produced and consumed that we would welcome the setting up of a on the property, he is bringing in young committee to do all that is possible to stock, often little more than advanced rationalise the bus, tram and rail suburban weaners, and they are fed in stalls and traffic. It is plain common sense. Two are given, under weight croppage, 15 lb. of years ago the Premier indicated that, but hammered grain a day and in 100 days the average result of their grain-lot feedings is so far we have heard nothing about it. I that the beast shows a live-weight gain of think it will have to come one of these 250 lb. It will be very quickly apparent as days. It is only common sense. That is a simple matter of transport economics that our view and it is the view we have always it is better to consume 15 lb. of grain at held. the distant spot to bring 2f lb. of meat to the coast than to bring 15 lb. of grain to The hon. gentleman expressed the criticism the coast and either use it there or ship it that the increase in freights will affect the away. Where the transport economics of economy of some of the cheaper products the coarse grains in the remote areas are and he particularly mentioned grain sor­ adverse and there is nothing in it for the ghum in the Springsure district. My view on man who produces them, it is a different that matter, and the view of my colleagues, matter if he embarks on grain-lot feeding is that any country that endeavours to com­ and travels the grain-fattened beef to the mand a reasonable standard of living for coast. its people based on a considerable element of the production of coarse grain produced Mr. Uoyd: I think they are doing both. in remote areas for export will discover no recipe for real national wealth. That is Mr. HILEY: Our prophecy is that grain-lot simply a recipe for national poverty. Taking feeding in those areas that lend themselves the Springsure district, let me put the facts to it is going to sweep across the whole clearly as an indication. economy of grain production in the far dis­ tant areas. The close areas will be the areas Mr. Uoyd: I mentioned Capella, too. from which grain sorghum will flow to the 1822 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2 export markets. In areas that are far enough that can affect the freight economics. The away for the freight factor to be a consider­ view of several of us is that by using the able deterrent, grain-lot feeding will grow, grain on the spot and shifting the cattle we and I think it will be to the advantage of get better pasture management and better those who develop it and will materially quality beef that will command a higher improve the annual output, because we will price, because anyone who knows will appre­ get the cattle away so much earlier. Instead ciate that grain-fed beef produces an appear­ of having to keep our male cattle and the ance that will always bring a better price on culled females to the age of four years, and the market than grass-fed beef. It produces a in some cases five years, to be slaughtered, better distribution of fat and what is called many of them will go away under two years, marbling, and because of that discriminating and the average will probably be a little over buyers will pay more for it. My conviction two years. The number of male livestock is that this is where the real answer to the that have to be depastured will be reduced, problem posed by the hon. member lies. and we will get quicker handling because the paddocks will not be tied up. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition attacked Comalco's inactivity. Let us look Mr. Lloyd: To really embark on that at the matter calmly because it is very project they must have the finance first, and easy to rush in with an idea followed by it is only in its infancy. an expenditure of money, only to discover Mr. HILEY: If one goes into these areas later that the decision might not have been and listens to them talk, they all have a wise one. brochures showing the price of silos and they are all running round to see where Mr. Some­ The whole key to Comalco was never a body has put one type of silo and Mr. Some­ matter of ensuring that there was sufficient body-else has put another type. They are all bauxite-that was assured from the outset­ in it. It will not happen in the twinkling of but it was necessary to know a great deal an eye, but I know my colleagues who are more about the bauxite itself. For example, interested share my view that grain-lot feed­ there are two types, trihydrate and mono­ ing may produce one of the greatest revolu­ hydrate. Each of these bauxites is a distinct tions in the pastoral economics of this State type, and you cannot treat one in a plant that we have ever known. designed for the treatment of the other. Mr. Lloyd: In the meantime, they could Mr. Houston: What two types of plant go broke growing it. are required? Mr. HILEY: The people who grow only Mr. HILEY: All I know is that you need the coarse grains will find it difficult. monohydrate plant to treat monohydrate and trihydrate plant to treat trihydrate. Both :Mr. Davies: Swifts have an area down types occur at Weipa, and in different towards Wynnum, haven't they? densities. In some instances they are blended together and in some cases you can get Mr. HILEY: I do not know. almost pure trihydrate, and in others pure This matter was examined at considerable monohydrate. The company knew that there length at a beef school at Y eppoon, and it was enough bauxite there. Indeed, my col­ appears that the economics of bringing the league tells me that the amount of bauxite grain to the cattle on the coast are not to there is even greater than was expected. be compared with using the grain on the The total quantity is enormous. But the spot, producing the beef whe;-e th<> r:r2in is '''~"'""'"" h2v<" to carry out a good deal of grown, and then moving the beef. T!•e bee~ "''~" · ,,,;,.,g, and so on. I is of se> much more value. You l,ave not got thougiu ~ s'" :;embers of the to put it into bags and handie i~. You cc-n Opposition at a mo_:un fn\.:LUre display given load a truck-load of cattle or walk them in. by the company. Mr. BmTows: You could not walk well­ Mr. Hanlon: I saw a motor boat running fed cattle. They would be too fat. round, a couple of jeeps, and someone playing a game of darts. There was nothing to get Mr. HILEY: They are handy to the load­ ing point. You walk them to it. your teeth into. Mr. Burrows: If you read the American Mr. HILEY: The hon. member n~ust have books in the library, you will see that they been asleep. describe how the cattle are brought over and Mr. Hanlon: They wined and dined us fed close to Chicago. pretty well, but we were not as sleepy as Mr. HILEY: Do not forget that Chicago that. is surrounded by great grain-growing areas. Mr. HlLEY: I was there and I saw them The corn belt is immediately to the west of with the test holes. I saw the stuff being Chicago and there is not the same cost of lifted out. You could see the nature of it. moving cattle. The hon. member mentioned one area, and the same thing applies up on Mr. Burrows: They placed it in a bag. the Maranoa and in the Dawson. The trans­ port factor involves hundreds of miles, and Mr. HILEY: Yes. Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1823

Mr. Houston: There was no mention of alumina unless you have a market for it. two types. You cannot put in an alumina-making plant with an annual throughput of less than Mr. HILEY: That might be, but in any 240,000 tons. case no question has been raised about this. I am dealing with the charge of inactivity. Mr. Walsh: It is a pity we didn't have Firstly, the company has been exceptionally all this information in the initial stages. active in discovering not only the quantity of bauxite but how it occurs and its varying Mr. HILEY: It was not known to us, or qualities so that it can form a decision to them. on whether it has to put in a trihydrate or Mr. Hanion: They signed the agreement a monohydrate plant. It will not put in without even finding it out? two. Mr. HILEY: No, that is a fine detail. IVir. Burrows: We have never been informed of that difference. Mr. .Hanlon: Did I understand you to say that you could not even think of a plant of Mr. HILEY: These are fairly technical less than 240,000 tons capacity? details. I learned of this mostly from my colleague, the Minister for Mines. I thought Mr. HILEY: Perhaps that may have been it was fairly common knowledge round the said. That is adopted as the world's standard. House. I can say now that there would not be one Minister, from the Minister for Mines to Mr. Houston: You still have not told the newest Minister in Cabinet, who does us the difference in the method of processing. not know more of the process and economics Mr. JfULEY: The hon. member would of alumina today than we did three years have to ask an industrial chemist to explain ago. that. Mr. Hanlon: You are largely in the hands of the people you are dealing with? :Mr. Burrows: Is there any difference in the specific gravity of the two bauxites? Mr. HILEY: They are equipped with all the necessary advice on these matters, and Mr. HILEY: I could not answer that. we have to take their guidance. I could not say whether one reacts to caustic soda or the other to epsom salts! But Mr. Houston: Would you not accept your different reagents would be necessary. I am officers' advice? informed that Bell Bay cannot handle the bauxite that will come most readily from Mr. HILEY: Of course. Weipa. It is quite significant to know that. Mr. Houston: Didn't they give you the The result is that that is why no Queensland information that you are giving us now? bauxite can go to Bell Bay, but they can have the alumina. !VIr. HILEY: No, you learn it as you go. Mr. Hanlon: Senator Spooner did not seem Mr. Lloyd: There is only one point-­ to know much about that the night he was Mr. HILEY: I will give it to the hon. on television. member in a minute. I say that unless you Mr. HILEY: That may be, but once the can get a market for an economic unit it right plant treats the particular type of is a waste of time to build a smelter and it bauxite and reduces it to alumina, the is a waste of time to build a port. There alumina can be used by any aluminium has to be a market. The result is that, smelter. All the peculiar physical characteris­ simultaneously with this company proving the tics are resolved and the alumina is in a area and discovering the quality of the state, no matter from which type of bauxite bauxite in it, they have been working hard it is produced, in which the various re-agents on various methods of marketing and have have corrected the differences and you finish been in constant touch with my colleague, up with a standard alumina. The alumina who from time to time has been able to we will produce at Weipa can be used at tell us of this hope coming along, and of Bell Bay or can be sent to New Zealand or the prospect that was unfolding. to any smelter that cares to buy Weipa­ Mr. Lloyd: In 1956 there was no refinery produced alumina. in which this bauxite for alumina could be Mr. Lloyd interjected. refined? Mr. HILEY: That is a very interesting Mr. HILEY: In Australia? remark because it goes to the real kernel Mr. Lloyd: No, anywhere? of it. I told hon. members that the com­ pany was never concerned about the quantity Mr. HILEY: They do not refine bauxite; of bauxite but it did need to know more they treat bauxite to alumina. That is the about the types. It has spent on that side point that is complicated and distinct. fully and beyond what we were ever given Mr. Lloyd: It is not complicated at all. to understand would be spent. The thing that quickly became clear to us was that Mr. HILEY: Alumina can be treated any­ it is not a bit of good being able to produce where, but you have to find a market for it. 1824 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

Do not imagine that because you are pro­ Mr. Lloyd: I think you will admit I was ducing a lot of alumina you can go any­ quite reasonable in my approach. where in the world and sell it. If anyone does, he does not know what he is talking Mr. HILEY: The hon. member attacked about. The Minister told me the other day the inactivity of the company, and I do not that he was at Corpus Christi, where one of think he was fair in doing so. the smelters of the great Reynolds group is Mr. Burrows: I think it would be better situated. That is one of the great names if the Opposition was taken more into the in the world in alumina, and that smelter Government's confidence. was working half-time-half the plant was closed down. Mr. HILEY: If we had a repetition of some of the things we have seen from the Mr. Lloyd: Have we to wait until the Opposition, every person interested in estab­ aluminium refinery is built in New Zealand lishing an industry here would be hunted before the alumina plant is built in Queens· away. land? Mr. Houston: Under the agreement you Mr. HILEY: I do not think so. allowed development to be tied up with one Mr. Walsh: What you say is tantamount company, with no guarantee that it would ever to an admission that the agreement was signed develop the deposit. too quickly. Mr. HILEY: Has the hon. member read Mr. HILEY: If the agreement had not been the agreement? signed we would not have been as far forward Mr. Houston: Yes. as we are. Mr. HILEY: The company has to forfeit Mr. Walsh: You are in a lot of trouble. They have you tied up. part of the area after it has €Xplored it, so the whole of the field is not tied up. Mr. HILEY: They have already spent more Mr. Evans: They will relinquish as much than they were committed to spend. The Minister for Mines and all my other as they hold. colleagues are as confident as I am that very Mr. HILEY: The company is committed quickly the port will start and very quickly to build an alumina plant within a certain there will be a start on the alumina plant. period, or forfeit its right. What has the We are satisfied, because of the arrangements hon. member to say about that? that are becoming clear to us, that the corn· pany has now found the market it needed. Mr. Houston: You said a moment ago, "Unless they find a market". Mr. Houston: What market is that? Mr. HILEY: Unless it commands a market, Mr. HILEY: The Minister mentioned it this it would have tried and failed. morning. Mr. Houston: And the field would have Mr. Houston: He said you were hoping to been tied up in the meantime. find a market in Japan. Mr. HILEY: It has tried. I advise the hon. Mr. HILEY: He also mentioned the project member to listen to the Minister's statement in New Zealand. tomorrow morning. Mr. Houston: That is not a market. Mr. Houston: It may be a gamble that has Mr. Evans: I have told you I will make a come off. statement tomorrow morning. I will cover the whole thing. Mr. Evans: Hon. members opposite sup­ ported the agreement. Mr. Burrows: Don't you think a few of us should go up there and have a look at it? Mr. Houston: On the information given to us. Mr. HILEY: Yes. It would do hon. mem­ bers a lot of good. It would give them a bit Mr. Evans: It has come good. What are of courage, and remove all these doubts. you crying about? Mr. Hanlon: Is it not our role to be Mr. Houston: We are not crying. critical as long as we are responsibly so? Mr. Hanlon: We will wait until we see it. Mr. HILEY: As long as the criticism con­ tains some modicum of constructiveness, I Dr. Delamothe: You are always crying am always happy to hear it. "stinking fish". Mr. Hanlon: We have been relying on Mr. SPEAKER: Order! propaganda statements for a few years. If you go through the Press file in the Library Mr. HILEY: The Deputy Leader of the you will find it is very misleading. Opposition urged restraint in the private sector in order to allow greater development in the Mr. HILEY: If hon. members opposite public sector. There is a great deal to be content themselves for another 11 t hours, said for that view. It has always been my they will hear an interesting statement by the view that there has to be a balance between Minister for Mines. the two and I have for some time been Appropriation Bill No. 2 [24 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1825 critical of the fact that development in the criticism of its administration. The way it private sector has been allowed to gallop is functioning is not only a reflection on free, with untrammelled interest rates, while Australia generally, but a repudiation of the the gilt-edged field, the backbone of public Central Bank in Australia. Those in development, was controlled in amount and administration should have seen what was rate. Time does not permit me to go over coming and put a thumb on it quicker than the points I have already made. The hon. they have, and perhaps without the necessity member could not have been in the Chamber for the severity that is now apparent. I when I expressed some views on the economic think that whatever happens, if Australia proposals of the Commonwealth Government. learns no other lesson from this than to see Although I am not at all happy about the that our central banking legislation is more details of some of the methods, the essence of effective in the future than it proved in 1960, the proposals is to impose some restraint in in meeting the great credit boom-- the private sector. Those restraints are to be imposed by withdrawing the credit that Mr. Walsh: You will agree that the Central has been available to them to an excessive Bank would have no control over the invest­ extent, and by abolishing the tax allowance ment by private banks of savings bank past certain levels. deposits? Mr. Walsh: Do you agree that the amend­ Mr. HILEY: The private savings banks are ment of the banking legislation has had a operated under a licence that specifies the big influence on these things? direction in which their deposits shall be employed. Mr. HILEY: I do not expect that would be the only answer. The steps the Common­ Mr. Walsh: They can invest in hire wealth are now taking, in my judgment, were purchase; there is no control over that. always available to them. I do not agree Mr. HILEY: The savings banks? that the Government lacked power to exer­ cise controL The Commonwealth have real Mr. Lloyd: Sir Arthur Fadden said some powers, but they have just discovered them years ago that there was no rule under the and are now proceeding to exercise them. charter in relation to the establishment of When a company borrows past a certain private savings banks. limit they say, "Well, you can borrow, but you won't get a tax allowance for interest Mr. HILEY: That is right. They are under past a certain level." They always had that a licence and under that licence there is a power, but they have now decided to exercise specification of the certain directions in which it. they may employ their funds. I think the hon. member will find, if he analyses the The hon. member for Bundaberg urged position, that the money that is employed by that the cure would be to bring the hire­ the banks for investment in the hire-purchase purchase companies under the control of field has been-I have never supported this, the Central Bank. and I have always been concerned about it­ Mr. Walsh: Back under the banking legis­ from the ordinary investment funds of the lation. banks, not from their savings bank deposits. Mr. HILEY: I say to the hon. member Mr. Walsh: They must have jumped up that the Central Bank, in theory, had a clear very considerably. charter to control the level of ordinary Mr. HILEY: Do not let us have any banking credit in Australia. Anyone who doubt about it. I am not at all happy about studies the way it galloped between February the banks getting heavily into hire purchase. and October this year-£150,000,000 increase I have never liked the way the banks went -would not put very much faith in the way heavily into hire-purchase, but anyone who the Central Bank exercises those powers. I studies the whole framework of hire-purchase have always felt that Australia, which was finance-that mountain that it is today com­ one of the first countries in the world to pared with the small hill that it was even five introduce central banking legislation, even years ago-knows what has happened every by 1930 was ahead of any other country in year. The proportion of the total funds the world, with the possible exception of invested in hire-purchase business in Aus­ Canada. tralia that comes from the banks is even now Mr. Walsh: The Royal Commission justi­ only a tiny percentage. The great bulk of fied it. it has been drawn from the general investing public through these unsecured funds and Mr. HILEY: I have always advocated mortgage debentures and issues of that type that with real teeth and real powers it could offered at a rate that has starved the gilt­ cleverly and successfully exercise full control edged market and helped to bring interest on the credit requirements of the community. rates in the private sector to a higher level. I have always been a great defender of the They have been the worst offenders. The central banking system, and an admirer of bigger hire-purchase businesses have been the way it developed in Australia. On look­ rather tolerant in their rates. It has been ing at the way it has been handled in other the newcomers in the hire-purchase field­ countries of the world, I always thought we names we never heard of before-who have had here something really good and admir­ been quoting 8t per cent., 9 per cent., 9t able. The way it functions may be merely a per cent. and even 12t per cent. 1826 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Questions

Mr. Lloyd: The Hire-purchase Conference has more or less turned honest now that it has established itself, and it is no longer going to extremes. Mr. HILEY: I think the bigger people and the older people in the hire-purchase field did not like the trend towards higher interest rates and they expressed themselves that way consistently; nor have they liked the trend in the hire-purchase field towards minimal deposits. The bigger and the older people have always said that, unless the cus­ tomer had a reasonable equity, they did not care to enter into the transaction. Mr. Hanlon: Why did your Government make it a fiat 10 per cent.?

l\1r. HILEY: Because there was no way in which we could get agreement with the other States on a common level. If, while New South Wales, Victoria, and South Aus­ tralia kept to the lower figures, we made it 20 per cent. or even 33t per cent., the other companies could have opened their offices at Tweed Heads and thumbed their noses at us. Mr. Uoyd: It is a pity there have not been a few prosecutions, just the same. Mr. HILEY: I always thought that and I can remember when the hon. member's col­ league, Mr. Power, was Attorney-General, I spoke to him on that matter. There was a law in those days which forbade no-deposit selling. I used to take evidence along to him that there was in fact no-deposit selling and, in some cases, flagrant advertising to that effect, but he told me that there were complexities in the law-loopholes that he had not been able to discover any way to block. There was a device employed in those days of getting a money-lending busi­ ness that they owned, as a free entity, to lend the customer the deposit. It was never actually handled. All they did was pass a cheque across the counter and straight back again. So the customer owed the money­ lender the deposit and used the advance to pay the deposit to the hire-purchase com­ pany, and away he went. (Time expired.) Motion (Mr. Hiley) agreed to.

COMMITTEE (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, Clayfield, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 8, both inclusive, schedule and preamble, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment.

THIRD READING Bill, on motion of Mr. Hiley, read a third time. The House adjourned at 11.45 p.m.