Transcript of BBC2, “How Euro Are You?” 3rd October 2005, 9pm

ANDREW MARR: If the world was a wine-bar, perhaps there’d be no problem. Surrounding me in the heart of London are some of the finest wines that Europe produces, and we drink that stuff by the gallon, we love it. We love their food. We buy houses in their countries. Last year, an astonishing 50m visits were made by Britons to the continent of Europe. 350,000 of us work there all the time. If that stuff made us good Europeans, we’d be good Europeans. But the world is not a wine-bar, and it’s run by politics. And politically we are at best very ambiguous about Europe. A lot of us loathe the European Union. So how Euro are you? Perhaps you’re about to find out.

(opening titles)

AM: Welcome. All day, at the heart of Europe, there has been a ferocious argument raging about whether Turkey should now join the Union or not, and we’ve just heard tonight that those talks are going to go ahead. And in the end it’s an argument about identity: who’s who? And we in Britain know all about that. So never mind Turkey, how Euro are we? Now, with us are people from across the country and the only thing that unites them all is that they can’t quite work out what they feel about Europe.

DARA O'BRIAIN: Is Britain in the end just instinctively closer to the Americans, or is it that you like Europe but find Brussels infuriating? On tonight’s show, we’ll be setting you a test, one of those ‘there are no wrong answers’ type of tests, to clarify where you really stand on this debate. What all our ‘don’t knows’ around me here really feel once you strip out all the baggage, all the ‘Brussels wants to straighten our bananas’, ‘they leave their towels out in the morning’, ‘I got bitten by a Frenchman as a child’ stuff. (laughter from audience) Where do people really stand on the issues.

AM: To help them, we’ve got a panel who hold very different points of view on this subject. Now, quite deliberately – because you hear politicians banging out about all of this all the time – it is going to be a politician free zone. We have also travelled across the channel to test out opinion there.

ELIZABETH GUIGOU: Make your decision and make it in favour of Europe.

EVAN DAVIES: I’m Evan Davies, and I’ve come to the northern tip of Germany to see if we’re British or maybe more American.

DO: You may be wondering how we’re going to do this. Well, the polling organisation ICM has worked with us to come up with a series of questions. Depending on how you answer they can place you in one of these four groups. First up are Mr and Mrs Chiantishire. This group are euro enthusiasts. They like all things European from going on holiday to sun dried tomatoes and good red wine. And maybe you’re Mr and Ms Dover Straits? This group are happy with Europe but want things to stay as they are. As far as they are concerned the European ideal is all very well but now it has gone far enough. Next up: Mr and Ms Costa Del Sol. This group are the eurosceptics. They feel we have gone too far already. They want Europe for trading purposes and holidays but nothing more. And finally, Mr and Mrs Little Islanders. This group are the europhobes. They want Britain to pull out of Europe. They think that it is a waste of money and that we are better off on our own. Maybe you think you already know which of these is closest to you, but take the test later and you’ll find out for sure.

AM: We’re going to keep an eye on everyone here among the ‘don’t knows’ who are taking the second ‘How Euro are You’ test, and we’ll also bring you a snapshot of how different parts of the country respond. If you’re playing from home, you will be able to phone or text in your answers, and we will tell you exactly how to do that in a minute. Or you can go online (gives website details). Now, just before we get going, to see how you identify with these groups of people, and what Euro means to them, let’s have a little look at some different views.

1 LOWRI TURNER: I’m very European, I don’t really understand the panic about us being part of Europe.

PAUL MORLEY: I think I’d feel more European if I spoke a couple of European languages.

EVE POLLARD: I feel more British. I don’t feel European at all really. In fact, I feel English.

DAVID GRANT: Everybody within the European Community has a national identity, and I think that Europe becomes weaker when people begin to lose that.

JANEY LEE GRACE: I don’t think that we’ve lost some of our national identity by being in Europe yet.

GERMAINE GREER: I don’t actually understand why the British are so fussed about their identity. They’re very confused about what it is. People are Cornish sometimes and English other times, and British other times. All of this is perfectly normal, but they also happen to be European.

DR RAJ PERSAUD: I think that there are many great things about being part of Europe, it has much to offer if Britain wants to continue playing on the world stage.

JOHN MCRIRICK: The best thing about being part of Europe is the 22 miles of the good old English Channel.

EVE POLLARD: Europe seems to me a bit like a sort of very fancy club or a gym, you’re flattered that they want you to be a member, but are you really getting enough out of the facilities?

NISHMA PATEL Director, Teletext I think Britain’s involvement in Europe, from my understanding, does actually go far enough for a country of its size and strength.

DR RAJ PERSAUD: I think there inevitably will be a United States of Europe, that’s very simply because there is a United States of America.

RUTH LEA: Director, Institute for Policy Studies: I think you could argue that Britain is already part of the United States of Europe, because there are so many aspects of statehood already there

SANDIE NAIRNE Director, National Portrait Gallery: Well, it’s crucial that we should be part of Europe, the way in which we’re part of it will always be slightly critical, slightly to one side, slightly transatlantic. And therefore the idea of a United States will never work for this country.

AM: Well, whatever else we’ve got, we have not got a national consensus, as you can see. Let’s bring in our panel to start with. Peter Hitchens, it may be an unlikely, or possibly unfamiliar thought, but just suppose Tony Blair picks up the phone this evening and he says, ‘Peter, Peter, what shall I do about Europe?’ what do you tell him.

PETER HITCHENS: Leave.

AM: Leave?

PH: Amicably, politely and quickly. Leave.

AM: As soon as he could?

PH: As soon as he could.

2 AM: As I said, it’s possible that he won’t do that – either pick up the phone, or leave. So Stephen Wall, you’re in a slightly different position in that you were advising Tony Blair, I don’t know if he took your advice, I don’t know if he’d pick up the phone if you called him yourself now, but what would your advice be?

STEPHEN WALL: Well my advice would be to stick with the policy he’s got, which is to recognise that Britain’s interests, national interest is best served by being a prominent member of the European Union. Most of our interests, be it peace and security, trade, aid, climate change, all those things, we do better by having allies which are the great democracies of Europe, twenty-four of them.

AM: But the country is not very enthusiastic about that message. What’s he not doing that he should be doing?

SW: Well I think what we’ve not done, and what successive governments have not done is actually explain to people what the nature of the project is. One of the advantages if we had had a referendum would have been that we would have been required to do just that, and people would have had a chance to make up their minds.

AM: Tanni Grey-Thompson, you’re not one of the advisors around this, you’re actually a competitor, you’re an international athlete, you go over to Europe, you wear a Union Jack on your shirt when you’re competing, is that the absolutely fundamental aspect of your identity?

TANNI GREY-THOMPSON: It’s a big part of it, but I’m also Welsh and British and I live in North Yorkshire, and I think one of the issues we have is with young people disengaged from politics. I think a lot of people don’t understand our national identity, people don’t understand if we’re Welsh, we’re English, we’re Scottish. A lot of people don’t understand the difference between England and the United Kingdom and Great Britain – and I think until we can sort that out, I think we’re going to have a difficult time. I’m generally pro-European, but people don’t understand what the real issues are.

AM: And they’re entangled completely with party politics. Amanda Plattel, you advised William Hague for a bit, and you write for the Daily Mail now on this and many other subjects. If Tony Blair went to you for friendly advice, (Plattel laughs) non-partisan advice – again, possibly unlikely, what would you tell him?

AMANDA PLATTEL: Well I’d tell him to do something that’s quite unlikely, just to listen to the people. And I think they have a very strong instinct here. Most people in this country don’t think that we should have further integration, they think that things have actually gone a bit too far already, just put a break on it, and stop faking, you know, these whole talks at the moment, this constant sort of talking tough, and then in the end he just goes further and further into Europe. It’s not what people want.

AM: Hmm.

AP: Listen to them for a change.

AM: Listen to the people.

AP: I don’t think he’ll be employing me!

AM: He might not! Will Hutton, you’ve also written a lot on this, you’ve lived in Europe yourself, do you agree with Amanda?

WH: I absolutely disagree, I think that Blair should get stuck in, I think that Britain has an amazing opportunity now. France and Germany are in trouble, the things that Blair argues for – reforming Europe – are widely agreed in mainland Europe, I think that Blair should go for it and actually put up a flag and say, ‘round this Europeans can rally’ – and it can be a British vision of Europe.

3 AM: Hmm. Armando, you’re a satirist, you’ve been following Blair for a long time, is he ever going to do that?

ARMANDO IANNUCCI: No, no, because it’s such a difficult question to try and answer, and I think the frustration that lots of members of the public have been feeling is that politicians are actually shying away from discussing Europe. I mean, we’ve got the Tory leadership election starting off this week, but all of them are scared to mention Europe, and I think that fear among politicians to talk about it is turning people off.

AM: Okay, well we’re not going to let the panel completely burble on, because that, after all, is my job. But they’re going to be tested about how much they actually know about Europe. Sorry about that panel. Dara?

DO: Yes, before we get to the attitudes, some general knowledge. A little quiz. This test does actually have wrong answers. The ‘don’t knows’ around me here, and the panel, you at home with a pen and paper, we want to see how many hard facts about the EU have soaked in over the last thirty years. You have fifteen seconds to answer each question.

Question 1: Which one of these famous statues is not in an EU state?

a) The Little Mermaid b) The Manneken-Pis c) The Bronze Horseman

AM: Well, the well-travelled probably know already, but for everybody else, here is the answer – the answer is c) The Bronze Horseman, which is in St Petersburg. The Little Mermaid is in Copenhagen, and the Menneken-Pis or Manneken-P is in Brussels. Dara?

DO: Yes, the diversity of Europe. In Belgium a urinating child in the street gets a statue, here you’d give him an ASBO. (laughter from audience).

Question 2: How many stars are on the European flag?

a) 12 b) 15 c) 25

AM: Well, apparently, it is traditionally the number associated with perfection. So the answer is a) 12. However, in the UK – I can see some wrong answers around here – when the UK turned the twelve stars into twelve swans, to represent our presidency, the eurosceptic Bruges Group said it was a rip-off of their logo – I’ll let you decide that. (laughter from audience)

DO: Interesting, last week the European Union flag over the European Union headquarters in London was declared illegal by The UK Independence Party, who discovered that it didn’t have the correct planning permission. (laughter from audience) Okay the next question is:

Question 3: How many countries joined the EU last year?

a) 7 b) 10 c) 12

AM: Well there were eight from Eastern Europe, plus Malta and Cyprus, so the answer is b) 10, which brings the total to 25 – and those ten new countries joined in May last year.

DO: This brings the EU more in line with the actual number of countries physically in Europe, although still nowhere near as big as the amount of countries that can win the European Football Championships, and that’s nothing to the amount of countries that are

4 allowed European Football Championships, and that’s nothing to the amount of countries that are allowed into the Eurovision. Eurovision is the world’s only real superpower. (laughter from audience)

Question 4: What is the motto of the European Union?

a) Unity in Diversity b) Unity gives Strength c) Unity, Justice and Freedom

AM: Mottos are complete rubbish, aren’t they? This motto was selected in 2000 from entries proposed by schoolchildren across the EU. And the answer is a) . . . . ‘Unity Gives Strength is actually the Belgian motto, and Unity, Justice and Freedom belongs to the Germans.

DO: And it’s so close to the proper motto, which would be ‘Unity? Diversity’ So . . that’s more of a punctuation thing.

Question 5: Which one of these UK political parties would take Britain out of the EU if it came to power?

a) The Scottish National Party b) The Monster Raving Looney Party c) The UK Independence Party

AM: Well, the name might have been a bit of a clue, yes, of course, the answer is c). UKIP say they’re not anti-European, they don’t want to be in the EU itself. The Scottish National Party believe Scotland should be an independent country inside the EU, and the Monster Raving Looney Party don’t believe in a single European currency, at least not in the euro – but they’d really like to invite the rest of Europe to join the pound. (laughter from audience)

DO: And the final question in this small section:

Question 6: How many EU countries still use their own currency?

a) 8 b) 13 c) 20

AM: Well, it’s Britain, of course, and Sweden and Denmark, and the new member countries who joined last year, and so the total is answer b) 13. Sweden and Denmark both voted against the euro, while we of course are still waiting for Gordon’s five economic tests to be met. Put aside the economic arguments on the euro which are pretty well-rehearsed and nonetheless confuse quite a lot of us, and let’s think a little bit about identity again. Sarfraz, do you think it really matters in the end whose head – whether it’s the Queen’s head, or somebody else’s head, or nobody’s head – is on our money?

SARFRAZ MANZOOR: Yeah, I think it does. I think that the problem is that we don’t really know what it means to be British, and I think it becomes harder to sign up to something that is European, when we’re not quite sure what we are as well. So, I think belonging and symbolism and who you have on your notes are all kind of tied up, and because we’re quite weak about who we are as British people, I think it becomes more likely that we’re going to be sceptical about Europe.

AM: Hmm. Antony, in some respects you’re a sort of living embodiment of roast beef England – roast beef well-cooked. And yet you’ve got a place in Spain where you

5 presumably use the euro, so does that not influence you to be more pro-euro, more pro-the whole European project?

ANTONY WORRALL THOMPSON: Not really. I think what it does do is it tells me Britain is fast slipping behind Spain in terms of efficiency and things like that, and I’m not so sure that’s anything to do with being part of Europe. I mean, looking at all your contributors on the screen earlier, one wonders whether . . . nobody’s really taken into account the monetary side of the European Union, how much it costs us. You know it’s another 5p on income tax, the fact that we’re a contributor . . .

AM: It’s too expensive?

AWT: We’re a net contributor and there are lots of countries out there that we’re supporting who are net beneficiaries, and I think a lot of the British public don’t really realise that.

AM: Julia Gash, you’ve got a lingerie company, and you trade – or you used to trade – a great deal inside the rest of the EU. What do you feel about the euro, is it something that really helps you, does Europe help you as a businesswoman?

JULIA GASH: Absolutely, if I’m going to be buying collections in, say, from Paris, I want to know what’s that going to cost when they actually go on sale in my shop, and I want to know it’s going to be the same price throughout seasons with the fluctuations in exchange rates you can’t do that, except all the countries in the European Union which have the euro can, which is why they don’t come to Britain to buy anymore. So having run an export-led business, and recognising how harmful it was for us not to have the euro, I now recognise how good it would be for business. It’s just making it easy, making trade simple. And trade, at the end of the day is what makes Britain great.

AM: A long time ago, Ken Clarke, Bridget Rosewell, made you one of his five wise men – he’s either not got very good eyesight, or he’s not very politically correct, and you’re now advising Ken Livingstone about this great multinational city, really, London. Isn’t what Julia said about the practical business case for the euro almost unanswerable?

BRIDGET ROSEWELL: The business case for the euro, would we like to all trade in one currency, is fine. But it might as well be the dollar as the euro, or indeed the Chinese currencies and so on. We’re an international completely global city, and a global country, so I don’t think it’s about the euro, and I think the big issue . . . I used to be very pro-euro, pro-EU and the rest of it. I think Europe’s great, but the EU stinks.

AM: Julia?

JG: No, over 50% of our exports go to Europe, so it makes sense, if we are going to have an international currency, and we are working in a global marketplace now, so we need these big currencies to actually trade effectively, it makes sense for it to be the euro. We’re more aligned with the economies than any other country. I mean, I live in Sheffield, the Yorkshire economy would be very different to, say, that in Kent or Cornwall, but actually as a whole they’re more similar say to Italy or Germany or France, despite the differences that do exist.

AM: Okay, well a big range of opinion, we’re going to hear a lot more from all of you later on, but first Dara.

DO: Yes we have some score updates, by the way, there were a number of gasps of disappointment throughout the room, I would imagine none of you are particularly confident, would I be right in saying that? (Audience “yes”) Is John Fletcher here by any chance? Hi John, how do you think you did?

JOHN FLETCHER: Reasonably well?

DO: Reasonably well, would you accept six out of six so far as being reasonably well?

6

JF: Yes, that’s good.

DO: Congratulations John, for a hundred percent so far. (applause from audience) There’s another John on table 7 over there who got none, but I’m not going to point you out. (laughter from audience) Of the panel, three people so far on the panel have one hundred percent, I would say ‘only’ three, as you’re the experts. But three people have one hundred percent, we’ll follow that up after the second part of it. One brief little note, by the way, the Readers’ Digest carries out a survey every year across Europe asking 24,000 correspondent in 14 countries how they see themselves. Two very interesting findings this year, Great Britain thinks of itself as more of a leader than any other nation in Europe – 29% call themselves leader, as opposed to France with 9% and Germany with 6%, and self- confidence, Germans are the most self-confident in Europe, Britain is a little bit above the average, but the French come out lowest with 17%. Thought you might enjoy that, actually, so let’s get on with the test.

Question 7: Peter Mandelson is one of how many EU commissioners to currently represent Britain?

a) 1 b) 2 c) 3

AM: What a wonderful picture (referring to photograph of Mandelson with a dog). We did have two commissioners, but when the ten countries joined last year, it became one per member state, so the correct answer is 1 – a) there are twenty-five commissioners altogether.

DO: Okay, next question.

Question 8: What is the European anthem?

a) Beethoven’s Ode to Joy b) Puccini’s Nessun Dorma c) Motzart’s Exsultate Jubilate

AM: And in case you can’t remember it, here is a snatch. (Ode to Joy) Yes, of course, the answer is a) from Beethoven’s 9th Symphony, better known as the Ode to Joy.

DO: The second choice for a European anthem was ‘Boys Boys Boys’ by Sabrina. (laughter from audience) They really shouldn’t do these things by text vote.

Question 9: The countries of the EU make up approximately what percentage of the world’s population?

a) 5% b) 7% c) 13%

AM: Well it’s not as big as you might think. The answer is b) 7%, And when it comes to population size inside the EU, we come third after Germany and France. Now compare all of that with India which makes up roughly speaking 17% of the world’s population, while China has a whopping 20%.

DO: Yes, there’s hundreds of them.

Question 10: Which of the following world leaders chaired the convention which drafted the new EU Constitution?

a) Jacques Chirac b) Helmut Kohl

7 c) Valery Giscard D'Estaing

AM: Well, it was a former French president, and so the answer has to be c) – the former French president, Valery Giscard D'Estaing. Denis McShane, former minister for Europe here said Giscard’s vision for Europe was ‘Napoleonic’.

DO: The penultimate question,

Question 11: Who left the EU in 1985, the only departure in the EU’s history?

a) Norway b) Greenland c) The Pharaoh Islands

AM: The answer might surprise you, but it was the flag you probably don’t recognise, it was b) Greenland. Greenland joined when it was part of Denmark after their referendum in 1972, but seven years later it became autonomous, and in another referendum ten years after going in, they voted to get out again, which shows it is possible.

DO: Yes, Greenland is the only country who’s left the EU for a solo career which never really took off, but they’re currently working on a new album. (laughter from audience) Final question,

Question 12: When is the earliest Turkey could become a full member of the EU?

a) 2006 b) 2008 c) 2015

AM: Well, now the talks are officially started you might think that Turkey could be in by next year, but the correct answer is c) 2015 – ten years away. That’s to allow for a new EU financial arrangement, and for France to hold their own referendum on the issue, and of course to make sure that Turkey’s ready.

DO: That’s the end of the Euro Facts, we’ll give you an idea of how our panel have done in a moment. But here’s a quick rule of thumb. If you got between 4 and 6, well done, you scored the same as the average person in this country. If you got 10 or more right, you’re in the top one percent.

AM: Well, those questions did raise some serious issues – not least, of course, the Turkish question. Peter, given that the EU has absorbed ten countries, eight pretty substantial ones from Eastern Europe recently. Why is there any particular reason that Turkey should be more difficult or more dangerous for the EU to absorb?

PETER HITCHENS: Well, as someone who thinks that we should leave, I don’t suppose I really should have much concern over who else should join. In fact, it strikes me that as Turkey enters, it would be quite a good moment for us to depart.

AM: (speaking over) And yet, they want to join.

PH: One might cite a very strong involvement of the military in politics, the recent prosecution of a novelist for raising the question of the Armenian massacres, and all kinds of other rather strong signs of backwardness, which would seem to suggest that they’re not fit to join an organisation which is based, supposedly, upon democracy and freedom.

AM: They were, at one point, going to be offered associate membership, which is interesting, because that could presumably mean that associate membership could be offered to others.

8 PH: Exactly, it could create a form of membership which would probably suit us very well, where we didn’t have to put up will all the political rubbish.

AM: Hmm. We don’t know what’s going to happen at the end of these talks, Will Hutton, of course, but how important is it, do you think that Turkey is brought into the EU?

WILL HUTTON: Well, now that is the 64,000 dollar question. I think that if you want to see a reconciliation between Islam and Europe, we need Turkey in and it sends a pretty powerful signal. It’s also pretty important economically to bring Turkey in, but here I think Peter has a profound point, I mean Turkey has got a long way to go before it becomes a real democracy with being able to . . . with freedom of expression. This trial in December of this novelist for raising the question. People in this room may not know this, but in 1915 the Turks organised the genocide of one million Christian Armenians that was overtly copied by Hitler in 1939.

AM: And they’ve never acknowledged that or apologised.

WH: He modelled the Holocaust on that, and that’s never been acknowledged by the Turks, and you can’t bring that up in Turkey without being – actually as this novelist has been – actually threatened with a trial. So, Turkey’s got a way to before it can become a full member of the European Union. If it travels the distance though, it should be in.

AM: Of course, they’re not absolutely sure that they want to join under any circumstances, Bridget, I mean, this European Union has been, at least in theory, in some kind of theory, a Christian club up ‘til now hasn’t it?

BRIDGET ROSEWELL: I’m not sure that’s really how . . . it seems to me to have grown out, after all, of the European Economic Area, it was always about . . . it was about free trade, it was about burying the hatchet of the Second World War, and it went out from there into grandiose schemes. If it had stuck to its initial last, I think we would all be quite happy with it. Free trade is free trade – I don’t mind who joins on that basis, the Turks, or whatever. It’s when you put all the political dimension . . .

AM: This superstructure stuck on top.

BR: It’s a superstructure on top of it, it’s those institutions which say, ‘everybody must be handicapped so we all win together,’ rather than create a level playing field in which we have winners.

AM: Hmm. Sarfraz, do you agree with that?

SARFRAZ MANZOOR: I think that a lot of the criticisms that people are making about the concerns about Turkey are a bit of a red herring in some ways. I think the real concern that people have is that it’s 70 million Muslims who are entering a predominantly Christian, white entity. And it seems to me that if Turkey does have problems in terms of human rights, in terms of these things, the carrot of offering membership in 2015, remember, is exactly the kind of incentive that countries like Turkey might use to do some of the reforms they need. So it seems to me that the criticisms that people are making are actually a bit preposterous, because we’re talking about trying to encourage countries to sort of belong to a club, and to not do that is to exactly send the alienating message . . .

AM: (interjects) It might just mean there’s a risk on both sides, doesn’t it, there’s a risk of keeping them out, there’s a risk of bringing them in.

SM: But the problem is, if people are worried about Muslims, the Muslims they should be worried about are the ones that are actually in Bradford or Leeds – not the ones who are in Turkey, which mostly is a secular nation.

AM: Hmm. Okay, let’s move on to one of the other issues that was mentioned in the quiz earlier on, which is the Constitution itself. Stephen Wall, we mentioned earlier on, Denis

9 McShane who was a foreign office minister while you were in Downing Street and indeed the Foreign Office. He described the Giscard D'Estaing model of this Constitution as ‘Napoleonic’, and I don’t think he meant it as a compliment.

STEPHEN WALL: No, well Denis is never, kind of, knowingly undersold. I think that Giscard himself may be Napoleonic, I don’t think the Constitutional Treaty was Napoleonic. The Constitutional Treaty – which was indeed a treaty between twenty-five sovereign governments, not a treaty for a single country, had a lot in it which was actually reforming the way the European Union operates – a better voting system, having a long-term chairman of the European Council the heads of government, i.e. practical steps that we needed to take, and now that we’re an enlarged European Union to make the thing work better. I think the mistake was calling it a Constitution, because for those people who wanted a federal Europe, they were disappointed because actually it didn’t give them that, and those people who feared a federal Europe were worried because it was called a Constitution.

AM: I’ve just spotted a sardonic shake of the head there from Amanda Plattel.

AMANDA PLATTEL: Probably the only honest thing they did was actually calling it a Constitution, because they actually came full out and said, ‘look, we’ve got the flag, we’ve got the president, we’re going to have a Constitution, this is a proper federal state’ – and for once they ‘fessed up to what they were actually going to do. And you know, why do we need a Constitution when it’s not a federal state, when it’s just a collection of people who, you know, are trading together and trying to have further integration to make everyone’s lives better, we don’t need a damn Constitution.

AM: Armando, do you think we need a Constitution?

ARMANDO IANNUCCI: No, I think you see this is where my confusion first started, you see.

AM: I’m . . finally, somebody has admitted to being confused!

AI: I’m Mr and Mrs Agnosticshire here, in that my heart has always been emotionally connected with the idea of Europe, but over the last couple of years, I’ve begun to doubt how the system works, and I think it started really with taking on board ten new members but not having it explained to me how on earth twenty-five countries could operate under one system. Now if someone explained it to me, I might be more open to it, but the idea of formalising it even further in a Constitution is what’s made me rather suspicious of the whole thing.

AM: Julia Gash, you’re a rare creature in this room – or indeed, in this country, in that you have actually read the Constitution, the proposed Constitution. Did that turn you in favour or against it? What did you think when you were reading it?

JULIA GASH: Well, I was expecting to read all these horror stories that something terrible was going to happen in reading this book, but actually everything seemed to make sense. And indeed you can’t have, as Armando has said, you can’t have the same structures that were created fifty years ago for six members, fifty years on for twenty-five members, and all it did was put the five treaties together and actually suggest some quite sensible things. And rather than giving away power, it was actually about giving power back through the process of subsidiarity, where you devolve power at local, national, or supernatural (sic – means supernational) levels, so it makes sense.

AM: Well written, badly written?

JG: I actually don’t think it was badly written.

AM: Not badly written – well there’s an encouragement to other people who may one day read the thing – it’s historical now. Dora?

10 DO: Thank you very much, Andrew, I’m back here hovering by John Fletcher, who’s probably intrigued to know how he did in the second part as well, John are you confident about this?

JOHN FLETCHER: I didn’t do quite so well.

DO: No, you got eleven out of twelve, in total, apologies for that. Whereas here in this table, where’s Murray Lee? Murray, how are you? Congratulations, twelve out of twelve. Very, very good. (applause from audience). Well done Murray, let’s contrast that with the panel. One person got twelve out of twelve on the panel, Stephen Wall, congratulations to you. Next is Peter Hitchens with eleven out of twelve. Antony Worrall Thompson with ten, and then it trails down. The lowest score on the panel with six, from a leading newspaper columnist, but I think that might (laughter from audience) colour the debate, slightly so I might leave that one hovering just for a little while there, until the debate continues. There is someone in the room who got none, which . . . there’s no way I’m actually pointing he or she out – I will say this though, it was a choice of an a), b) or c), question, there were twelve questions, any statisticians will know that if you got a chicken and gave it three piles of corn, with a), b) or c) written on it, on average you’d get four right. So nought, you’d have to wilfully hate Europe and everything that’s going on to actually get it wrong. But our winner here, congratulations, and indeed to Stephen.

AM: Well, we’re about to move to the second part of the test, this is quite complicated stuff, but so far 76,000 people have taken part from home. Now, everyone both here and at home can try to work out where you might fit on our Eurometer – in the immortal words of Peter Snow, I hasten to add – just a bit of fun. Now, do you love everything about Europe and feel we should be right in the centre of it all? Do you love bits of it? Or none of it? Let’s see which of the four groups you end up in. Now for this part you need to text or phone in your answers, or you can take the test online. (gives details)

DO: Before we get going, we’ve done a bit of homework for you. We’re aware that a lot of what’s written in this country about the EU takes the form of scare stories about meddling Brussels bureaucrats, and we’ve been looking behind those newspaper headlines at bits of European legislation to see how much is fact. For example, there was a story in the Mail on Sunday: ‘Fireman’s Pole Axed’ – lovely pun, as you can see there, apparently, according to the article, firemen have saved precious seconds by sliding down a pole to the ground floor of their fire stations for almost two hundred years, but now due to a new European safety directive, they’re being ordered to walk down the stairs instead. The article goes on to say that the Gloucester fire brigade were the first to comply with this under EU working conditions regulations. So we rang Gloucester fire-brigade, but they said the story came from some talks they had with their local authorities about safety, nothing to do with the EU. And if you live in the Gloucester area, and have a chip pan, you’ll be relieved to hear that your local fire service will continue to slide down the pole for the foreseeable future. (laughter from audience). And what about this one: ‘Fears Over Plans to Cook Dead Pets’ – the Daily Mail told us that according to the EU, you can only bury your dead pets after they have been pressure cooked at 130 degrees for half an hour (laughter from audience). Who are these monsters in Brussels, and why must I bake Fido? Well, there is a ruling about this, but it’s about BSE infected cattle or other high-risk materials. If your pet is a BSE infected cow, you have many, many other problems to deal with in your life. (laughter from audience and applause) For one thing, when you call them they’re not going to come. Otherwise when Mr Tiddles passes on, you can put away the Le Creuset and take out the shovel like normal.

AM: We’re going to come back to some more of those later. But obviously these sorts of headlines to make us wonder about Europe, and particularly the institutions which impose these directives. And then there’s what’s called our special relationship with America. In the end, do we feel more American than European? Are we more at home with another English speaking nation, English of a kind, whose films and telly shows we consume, whose music we mostly know, and whose culture we mostly share. We asked Evan Davies, the BBC’s economics editor to see if he could untangle all of this for us.

11 EVAN DAVIES: Meet the cousins, here in Northern Germany. Now, we don’t always feel very European, but history and geography mean we cannot escape the connection. I’m on a peninsula called Angeln, now this is where the Angles came from, who settled in East Anglia in the fifth century. It was the Angles who gave us the name England, yes, England has been trading on a German name for centuries. Here’s today’s map of the area – it actually say Angelner Land – which almost sounds a bit like Eng-er-land, doesn’t it? If it’s European connections you want, of course I could have mentioned the Romans and the Normans. If you visit Angeln, you’ll find it a touristy, rustic place. It was the Angel tourists from here, of course, who put the Anglo into Anglo-Saxon. Well things have moved on quite a lot in the last millennium and a half. We Brits, whether we originally came from here in Angeln, or whether we were on the Celtic side of the family, these days we probably feel about as close to our American cousins as anyone else. History and geography may put us at the heart of Europe, but doesn’t economics practically make us the 51st state of the Union? Europe or America, which are we? Well there’s a reason we’re confused about which continent we’re in, when you look at the data, we’re not quite in either. On a host of different indicators, we’re kind of in-between the continents. Compare us to the twelve members of the euro on one hand and the US on the other. On obesity rates, Britain is in the middle, 11% on the continent, 30% in the US, and 22% in the UK. Or, look at the prison population. Again, we’re in between, although a lot closer to Europe. On life expectancy, we’re in between, although everybody is quite close. On annual working hours, the Europeans work fewer, the US work more, we’re in the middle. Look at government spending on the welfare state: again, we look a bit American to other Europeans, but we look European to the Americans. On home ownership, we’re at the extreme end, but closer to the US than the euro 12. In general, we’re closer to the US than the French or Germans are, but we’re more European than the Americans. So where do the Americans themselves think that Britain lies?

TOM RIVERS ABC Radio London correspondent: Actually, psychologically, they think of Britain as a country that kind of lives, if you will, in the middle of the Atlantic. It’s being torn from both sides, from Brussels, and from Washington, very different economic and cultural ties, if you will, and it is somewhere in the middle.

ED: But economics perhaps talks loudest of all. And economic growth over the last five years has made us look more American. Britain and the US have averaged 2.7% growth. The Eurozone only 1.8. These days, like it or not, people in Angeln, and in Britain are perhaps moving closer. American culture catches us all, even in the European Central Bank, in Frankfurt, it is English that is the main language. And our economies defy national origin. The Germans enjoy American fast food and yet Hamburgers originally came from Hamburg which is just an hour down the motorway. And maybe those McDonalds hamburgers say it all. We can argue all day about our national symbols our identity, Europe and the United States, but global economics is constantly rewriting history, and reconfiguring the geography of the nation. We’re in an era of cheap airfares, global companies and mass migration, so maybe we just have to be pragmatic about where we see ourselves as coming from. Just as, in fact, the Angles were 1600 years ago. And where would we be without them.

DO: So, if you take nothing else from tonight’s show, congratulations, you’re not as thin as the Europeans, but the Americans are fatter than you are. That’s very important. (laughter from audience). Now, to get some idea of people’s gut reaction to Europe, we asked some of our audience to draw their image of the continent, something that represents what they feel about their experiences of Europe. And I can share some of those sketches with the wider audience. Nicky Johnson, you did two for us, what was the first one you did?

NICKY JOHNSON: Well, I work in Italy, I’ve worked in Italy for the last fifteen years, and this is how a typical Italian man sees himself (shows drawing)

DO: Let’s have a look at that, that’s how the Italian man sees himself. But you drew two pictures. What is the second picture there Nicky?

NJ: And the second one is the reality, whether he’s young enough to be my son or old enough to be my grandfather, that’s the sad truth . . . (laughter from audience) . . big difference!

12

DO: It is relatively harsh. I hate to break it to you, all overweight bald men think they look better than they really do. (laughter from audience) I don’t think it’s particularly a national trait. Paul, what have you drawn for us there?

PAUL: Well, I’ve got the Tower of Euro Babble – I believe it’s correctly spelt Babel, but I put the Babble in . . .

DO: Do you believe there’s too many languages in the European Union?

P: No, I think it is a good and a bad aspect. I mean I think the European languages are, you know, part of our cultural heritage, and each nation wants to hold onto its languages, where possible, and each express different things, and I think they need to be preserved.

DO: It’s particularly impressive that you’ve chosen a series of words which just say the same thing: which are just ‘cheers’ in a number of different languages, they’re all drinking words you’ve picked, aren’t they?

P: Only nineteen languages there, there is about fifty languages in Europe.

DO: Well, that impairs your drinking in the other countries, doesn’t it, slightly. You’re a scientist, of course, one of those fields where there is, genuinely cooperation across Europe, isn’t it?

P: Yes, we need Europe for space research, we work with the Europeans in the European Space Agency, and without them we would only be able to do quite low cost experiments. But we can be making a big input into serious space research.

DO: Let’s see one more picture here, we can move along to the next table. This is Emily Carter, what have you drawn here?

EMILY CARTER: Well my son loves the movies, he loves Hollywood, so I thought let’s see what happens if Britain joins the euro. This is a big dragon, greedy, and is he going to actually eat the whole of England, or is he going to let us be? Old St George comes back, and he’s trying to hold on to British traditions.

DO: Very good, this is St George, of course, who was from Palestine originally, and never visited England at any stage during his life. He’s a fantastic European St George, you’ve chosen really good, he’s the Patron Saint of Portugal, England, Lithuania, Georgia, Moscow and Catalunia, of farmers as well, he’s the best European I’ve ever met, to be honest (laughter from audience).

EC: I do have Celtic roots, so . . .

DO: Not so good on the whole dragon thing, really, but very, very good. Thank you very, very much for that. The language thing was mentioned during the week, because I think it was a week ago the Telegraph reported that Britons are the worst language students in Europe, in Western Europe in particular, less than a third have a second language, as opposed to the Dutch – 90% of Dutch people are bilingual. As a matter of interest, raise your hands, how many people have a second European language. It is round about a half, a third to a half. How many of you could say a couple of words if you were pushed? How many of you speak English, but in a foreign accent and point a lot? (laughter from audience) Very good. One man who doesn’t have any difficulty is Said Khan, how many languages do you speak?

SAID KHAN: I speak eight European languages.

DO: Eight European languages.

13 SK: Yes, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Swedish, German, Finnish and I speak Urdu as well, which isn’t really a European language . . .

DO: No, it’s not, unless the thing really expands in a massive way. But that’s the day for another debate. And have you worked across Europe?

SK: Yes, I’ve worked in France, and I’ve been to Finland lots and lots of times, because my mother’s from there.

DO: And has it been useful for you, in terms of getting work with this many languages?

SK: Very much so yes. I (words unclear) there was more call for it.

DO: You’d be amazed, a man with Urdu and Finnish, how many people are there like that in the world, for god’s sake, who speak Urdu and Finnish.

SK: Three, to my knowledge.

DO: Three, my lord. Kill the other two, you’ve got the field to yourself. (laughter from audience) Over to you Andrew.

AM: Some of us are struggling in English. Now, onto the second test and time to find out just how European you feel. As we said at the beginning, we’ve worked with the polling organisation ICM to come up with a special test, which everyone at home can also take. You can jot down the answers, a letter a) to a letter d) for each one, and then phone through a string of letters to a special number we’ll give you after the section, or you can take the test online and the details are on the screen, of course you can just go out and grab a carrier pigeon. (gives details of text voting)

DO: Now, remember, there is no right or wrong answer, so get your pens, mobiles, computers ready and we can get going. There are twenty-five questions in total. Some of them might look a bit silly, but they are all based on actual statements given by members of the British public. We start with seven on Euro People, twenty seconds per question, and it’s very important you must have a go at each question or your scores won’t add up.

Question 1: Which of the following do you feel are Britain’s best friends in Europe?

a) The Italians b) The Poles c) The Greeks d) The Danes

Question 2: How do you some up your attitude to Germany?

a) Best beer in the world b) Vorsprung Durch technik c) Beach towels on the sun beds d) Two World Wars and one World Cup

Question 3: Do you perceive Europe to be . . .

a) multi-faith b) mainly Christian c) mainly Muslim d) mainly atheistic

Question 4: When watching news stories about the EU, would you say you are . . .

a) very interested

14 b) quite interested c) not really interested d) tend to switch off when the EU is mentioned

Question 5: Thinking about former Communist countries like Poland and the Czech Republic, are they now . . .

a) part of Europe b) linked to Europe but not part of it c) not really part of Europe d) separate to Europe

Question 6: Which of the following best describes your position. Finish this sentence. We are all Europeans . . .

a) there are no differences between us b) but some differences remain between us c) but there are significant differences between us d) but we have little, if anything in common with each other.

Question 7: Which of these European do you think dislike the British most?

a) French b) Portuguese c) Spanish d) Irish

Andrew Marr gives numbers to phone in with results.

DO: Now I’m with some of the people who are here. Wendy Norman, are you worried about the whole issue of losing your identity?

WENDY NORMAN: I am, very much so. I’m proud to be British and I think it would be a very sad day, as we’ve evolved so far, if we were to lose our identity.

DO: So it would surprise you to find out that so far you’re Chiantishire? You’re pro-Europe at this stage, according to your answers.

WN: Yes.

DO: That would be a surprise to you.

WN: Yes.

DO: Well, that’s the story so far. And why, do you think that when the Brits are abroad, in Europe, you think you have a distance from it perhaps, from the European people?

WN: Yes, I think so, I think we feel . . . well a lot of people feel more superior.

DO: Really?

WN: I don’t quite know why. But erm . . .

DO: The issue of identity . . . do you think the French have lost their identity, or the Germans have lost their identity, or the Irish?

WN: No, but I can see these things coming probably.

15 DO: Okay. Alex Milne and Sian Fleetmill, how are you, you actually have a holiday home in Europe, don’t you?

ALEX MLINE: We’re in the process of buying one, yes, in Spain.

DO: And do you know how many people, how many Britons have holiday homes at the moment, do you have any idea?

SIAN FLEETMILL: No, I don’t know.

DO: It’s actually 250,000 British people. You currently on the test, by the way are Costa Del Sol, which is actually slightly eurosceptic at this stage – does that tally with your own views?

SF: Erm . . no.

DO: I mean you don’t live among British people where you’re going to . . .

SF: No, we’re buying, in the process of buying, it is multi-international where we’re buying, it is a resort, but there are lots of Europeans there.

DO: Okay, cool, thank you very much for coming on, will leave it over to you Andrew.

AM: Many thanks. We’ve talked a little bit so far about what we think of our European partners, and some of those questions reflected your views, but what do they make of us? We took a trip to Paris to hear from two influential politicians with very different views about the future of the Union.

ELIZABETH GUIGOU: I am Elizabeth Guigou, member of the French parliament, and I have been on the European question for years now, since I was a European minister with Francoise Mitterand.

JACQUES MYARD: My name is Jacques Myard, I’m a French MP belonging to the foreign (word unclear) and of course the question of Europe is very important for France.

EG: I have long been wondering why the British people are so suspicious about Europe, they fear to lose their national identity, but it’s not true. Since we are a transnational union, this does not make disappear our nation states. We will not be a United States of Europe.

JM: I do like the British reticence to Europe, because in fact today the Europe which is building is a kind of kibbutz Europe, a (word unclear) Europe, everything is concentrated in Brussels, are we not going to be imposed new laws, new ways of life that we don’t like, you British or we French.

EG: It seems to me, each time I go in the United Kingdom that the press, the popular press has a really a very nasty role. They always present Europe as something that brings trouble, that is impossible to achieve, that will never succeed. Well, what we have done over the last fifty years shows exactly the contrary. So I think that’s a misinformation.

JM: We have in France the press which has been praising all the time very ideologically and very let’s say one-way Europe. I do believe that we need to be more balanced.

EG: I think like a Briton called Mark Leonard wrote recently in a book called ‘Why Europe Can Lead the 21st Century’ – I think we could if we want, and provided that Britain is inside the stream of the European Union, I think we can reshape the world. We can have a new world based not only on competition, but also on cooperation.

JM: Britain belongs to Europe, and what I await from the British is to bring more realism to this European construction which has been ideological until now, and which is driving into a

16 deadlock. Be realistic, be British, and I’ll be French to build a common cooperation in Europe, that is what we need.

AM: I think what’s really interesting about that, and important to remember, of course, is it’s not just us having these arguments about Europe, they’re happening all across the European Union, particularly in France. Antony Worrall Thompson, were you in any way impressed by what Elizabeth Guigou said about the creation of a world class Europe, reshaping the rest of the world?

ANTONY WORRALL THOMPSON: Not really. I think a world class trading Europe is fine, but this is a country that rejected the Constitution, this is a country which recently, Chirac said ‘let’s fight off foreign takeovers of our companies’

AM: Kind of overblown Gallic nonsense?

AWT: yeah, the thing about the French is the French and Germans have a club don’t they, they reject all the laws that Europe throw at them, they’re the only country in Europe that’s been fined for their problems with their fishing trade and stuff. So I mean, I believe that they ignore the rules. I mean, we are the British, we stick to the rules, they ignore the rules.

AM: (speaking over) And it’s always been that way you would argue?

AWT: Yes.

AM: Stephen Wall, is there anything in Jacques Myard’s argument that we were hearing just now, that centralisation inevitably removes sovereignty and power from the nation state? In some sense this is basic maths: there’s a limited amount of usable power, and if there’s more at the centre, there will be less for the nation states.

STEPHEN WALL: Yes, you have to get the balance right, and the whole point about the European Union was that the founders of it decided that you couldn’t just leave nation states to fight it out, because then the large would always win and the small would be trampled on. Hence the fact . . .

AM: (speaking over) Does that not happen now anyway, inside the EU, in practice the large nations dominate?

SW: Well it doesn’t, because in answer to Antony’s point, the fact is, if the French or Germans or anybody else disobey the European laws . . . the French did, the French did, ‘we won’t have any British beef’, and the European Commission said ‘we will take you to the European Court’ and eventually the European Court said, if you don’t admit British beef, we will fine you several hundred thousand euros a day. At which point, our beef could be sold on the French market. That’s why you have these so-called supernational . . .

AWT: Our beef’s still not being sold. They haven’t been fined for that, they’ve been fined for their fisheries problems, that’s the only time anyone has been fined in Europe. I mean, it’s pathetic. You know.

AM: Peter? I want to bring Peter in here, because erm . . .

PETER HITCHENS: There’s one point I want to make about all the discussion so far, this is nothing to do with identity, I don’t know why you go on about it so much. Our identity is quite possibly more threatened by Coca-Cola and hamburgers than it is by European imports. What is . . .

AM: (speaking over) So what’s it about?

PH: What is at stake is who rules the country. Whether we rule it, or whether it’s ruled from abroad by somebody else. We no longer have a sovereign parliament . . .

17 AM: So it’s more about democracy and less about identity?

PH: We no longer make our laws, if we don’t like our government, we can no longer get rid of it. This is the crucial question, whether you think the country is well run or badly run, the whole point of this country is that it has run itself for centuries, has developed laws of its own, a parliament of its own, all of which are being taken away by the European Union. It’s nothing to do with identity . . .

AM: Okay . . .

PH: Please get onto the real subject, or we’re wasting our time here, we really are.

AM: Well, that is a powerful point, in the end it’s an essentially democratic question. Julia?

JULIA GASH: Our country . . .

AM: (interjects) you have to be able to kick the rogues out, that’s what Peter’s saying.

JG: And indeed you can.

AM: Well, you can’t kick out the Commission.

JG: No country is an island, and I think it’s naïve to think that we can govern ourselves without any outside influence from the rest of the world. We can’t. If Japan coughs, we sneeze.

AMANDA PLATTEL: But that’s not the same thing at all.

PH: The point is that these people have power over us. The European Commission makes our laws, the European Court of Justice decides what our courts can do. We no longer have the right to make, or keep, or enforce our own laws.

JG: And we create those laws.

PH: We do in cooperation.

AM: I want to bring some other people in, Will that is actually an unanswerable question isn’t it, that’s a very strong point.

WILL HUTTON: Well if it were true, it would be a strong point, but with Peter it’s so exaggerated it’s not true.

AM: (speaking over) But you can’t sack the Commission, you can’t . . .

WH: When Peter was talking I was thinking of primary schools, secondary schools, universities, hospitals, doctors, transport, what we’re going to do with the infrastructure we’re going to build for the Olympics, all of that is under our control, we make our own rules and sometimes actually we need the Europeans to make our rules on asylum seekers and terrorism. I was trying hard to think of . . . there’s competition policy where I think it’s done better amongst the EU twenty-five, there’s agricultural policy, where actually we’d probably want to subsidise our farmers if we didn’t do it with the Europeans, we’d do it ourselves, and I’m just trying to think to what extent . . .

AM: (interjects) These complexities . . . there is a fundamental democratic question. Sarfraz, what do you make of what Peter was saying just now?

SARFRAZ MANZOOR: I find myself slightly in an uncomfortable position of agreeing with some of that, actually. Because it seems to me that one of the things . . .

18 AM: (interjects) You agree with some of what he was saying? Okay, just take us through that.

SM: Because it seems to me that there is a benefit, I think of being in a Union where there is a trading benefit, but in terms of when it becomes about political power, I don’t understand why we need somebody else to tell us why we should work less, or whatever. If those laws are appropriate laws, we should be making them ourselves, in that sense. And I think the other thing I thought was quite interesting is that, for all the kind of talk that was being made about a European vision and Europe refashioning the world, what the referendum results showed is that’s the politicians talking, that’s not what the people want.

AM: No .(mumbles) . . Bridget?

BRIDGET ROSEWELL: A point about the economic philosophy on which all this is based. We’ve all agreed that free trade and free trading areas is a very good thing, but the EU isn’t about that. The EU is actually about trade restrictions. I thought when I used to be in favour of it, it was about free trade – but it ain’t – I mean, look at the Bra Wars, (to Julia Gash)you must know a lot about that. Look at all these restrictions which are about saying, ‘we’ll let you trade, but only if you trade with the people you want us to’. I’m really against that.

AM: Okay, well it’s hotting up well here, whether this is swaying you one way or another, we are going to go on to the second part of this test, which we have called Euro Politics. Nine questions, twenty seconds to answer each question. As before.

Question 8: What can the countries of Europe teach us in Britain about democracy?

a) A lot b) Quite a lot c) Not very much d) Nothing at all

Question 9: The intentions of people in mainland Europe towards Britain . . .

a) can never be trusted b) can be trusted sometimes but not often c) can be trusted most of the time d) can always or almost always be trusted

Question 10: Going forward, the EU is heading in:

a) exactly the right direction b) generally the right direction c) generally the wrong direction d) completely the wrong direction

Question 11: Thinking about possible wars in Europe – do you think that the existence of the EU and its political institutions make war in Europe . . .

a) a lot less likely b) a little less likely c) a little more likely d) a lot more likely

Question 12: At present, the EU is . . .

a) almost completely run to the tune of the French and Germans b) mainly run to the tune of the French and Germans c) a more equal partnership between member states d) the French and Germans have less say in the way the EU is run than other countries

19 Question 13: How long do you think it will be before there is one European defence force?

a) Within 5 years b) Within 10 years c) Longer than 10 years but there will be one d) Never

Question 14: Looking ahead, we should . . .

a) integrate fully with other EU countries b) not integrate further but stay as we are c) have a trade agreement with other EU countries but that’s it d) leave the EU

Question 15: If there to be another conflict and the EU and NATO disagree about how to deal with it, do you think Britain should . . .

a) stand with the EU b) stand with NATO c) stand alone d) stay out of it

Question 16: In your mind, Britain is . . .

a) separate from Europe b) somewhat detached from Europe c) attached to Europe but not firmly d) part of European Union

DO: (gives details of how to ring in with answers). Now, apparently at the moment there are 93,000 people playing across the country at the moment, so we should get a fairly solid result at the end of this. While you’re doing it, here’s a few more euro-myths that we can debunk. The Independent ran this headline once: ‘Oysters caught in EU red tape’, with an article saying that the EU had ordered, if you were transporting oysters, you had to give them regular rest breaks and stress-relieving showers. (laughter from audience) In fact, there are EU laws about transporting all livestock and animals, including shellfish, so they arrive fit for human consumption. But regular rest and watering – that’s only for the cattle and sheep, the oysters, sadly, don’t get to stretch their legs. And this one from the Sun, just last month. ‘Hands Off our Barmaids’ Boobs’. ‘The EU has declared a crackpot war on busty barmaids, by trying to ban them from wearing low-cut tops’ This story came with a load of photos. (laughter from audience) The rule in question actually came from legislation which is being considered to protect outdoor workers from sunburn and possible skin cancer. It applies a lot more to builders’ arse – but the Sun didn’t run loads of pictures of that. (laughter from audience). That said, only last week the rule was dumped, so maybe the Sun’s campaign actually worked. In fact the European Commission announced this week that they’re planning on scrapping a third of all pending laws, and have an aim of getting rid of 30,000 pages of existing laws in the future, so maybe all this kind of stuff is actually working. Mind you, the media does tend to focus heavily on this kind of stuff. The absurdum of the European laws, the crazy cases at the side of the thing, imposed on European life. We’re going to hear from Kate Thompson, hello Kate, how are you? Now Kate, you’ve lived across Europe haven’t you?

KATE THOMPSON: Yes I have.

DO: How do you think the media covers Europe in this country?

KT: I think it’s really shocking the way the tabloids cover Europe, they completely misrepresent it, they just seem to want to stir up anti-EU hysteria.

20 DO: Okay. Now, the debate here seems to be quite driven by this, do you think?

KT: I think it is. I mean, I thought it was interesting that Amanda Plattel said earlier that Tony Blair should be listening to the people of the UK, and their opinions on Europe. In fact, the opinions of the people of the UK on Europe are shaped by what the tabloids write, which is lies basically most of the time.

DO: Now, would you be surprised that in the last section, you answers indicated that you were a eurosceptic? You came out as . . .

KT Really? I just thought I had a balanced view.

DO: Well earlier on you were pro-Europe so schizophrenic I would have said. (laughter from the audience). You’ve really got to pick a side and go with it. Andrew, back to you.

AM: Thanks a lot. One of the things that we were talking about in the last section was the European defence force, or the European Army which does raise a lot of strong feelings. Irrespective of your own feelings about it, Peter, do you think it’s ever going to happen? Are different European countries, including Britain, going to trust each other enough to actually have a single army?

PETER HITCHENS: It’s already happening. There are already units which carry the EU stars on their shoulder flashes.

AM: They’re pretty small though, aren’t they?

PH: They are small, but the idea is progressing, and although it was supposed to be part of the Constitution which has been rejected by France and the Netherlands, the arrangements to create a European defence agency are still going ahead. And indeed a European foreign policy which that defence agency would support. The thing is inexorable, and nothing that we do or stay will stop it.

AM: (interjects) You don’t think . . .

PH: It’s designed to be . . .

AM: . . . it can be rolled back by the failure of the Constitution?

PH: The real motto of the European Union from the start, from the European Coal and Steel Community and then from the Treaty of Rome, has always been ever closer union, and the mistake they made with the Constitution was to call it a Constitution – if they hadn’t said it was that, and if they’d just said it was another intergovernmental agreement, it would probably have slipped by. But the process just goes on and on, when you jump into Europe you don’t jump into a swimming pool, you jump into a fast-flowing river.

AM: Amanda, do you think it’s inexorable, it’s inevitable we’re going to be pulled in further and further whatever we do?

AMANDA PLATTEL: Well, I do think it’s inevitable, if we go along the path that we’re going, but I do think there’s a point now where we can actually say, ‘no further’, I’m not sure it will happen under this government. And I have to answer that question just a moment ago by our eurosceptic friend . . .

AM: Sure.

AP: I promise you, any newspaper that drives a policy against public opinion goes out of business. The reason that the newspapers reflect a eurosceptic view is because that’s what most people in this country feel.

AM: So you’re representing your readers and that’s why you sell more newspapers?

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AP (speaking over) absolutely, and you’d go out of business if you stopped doing that.

AM: Tanni, do you feel that we’re all being drawn into a sort of inevitable process, the world is becoming bigger, there’s bigger global blocs, countries are being kind of spatchcocked and Europe’s just our bit of it?

TANNI GREY-THOMPSON: I think one of the issues with Britain is that we tend to look to the past, I think we still have a huge amount of guilt over the Second World War, we’re worried about where we’re going, and this drives some of the issues that people have about going into Europe. For me, I think we need to be in it, I think we need to be part of it, we need to be a major driving force of it.

AM: Stephen, you’ve been right at the centre of some of these negotiations in the past, how do you react to what Peter’s saying.

STEPHEN WALL: If you think back just over ten years, we had a war in the Balkans, a war in Bosnia of the most inhuman kind. One of the reasons that there is peace in the Balkans now is because there was a European-led peacekeeping force. I think it’s absolutely right that Europe should be involved in peacekeeping. If it comes to the defence of Europe against outside attack, then we continue to rely on NATO, and the alliance with the Americans. And it’s absolutely right that we should be taking part in helping to keep the peace on our own continent.

AM: Alright, thank you very much, we’ve more of this later on. Dara?

DO: Let’s get on with the test, as I said about 95.000 people taking part, 7,500 on SMS, so thank you very much for staying with us. Let’s go on with the test, four questions around Euro Leisure, twenty seconds to answer each one.

Question 17: On holiday in Europe, which would you prefer?

a) I would be most happy on holiday with other Brits b) I like to mix but mainly prefer to be around other Brits c) I would like a mix but would prefer to be with other Europeans and not Brits d) I would prefer to avoid other Brits

Question 18: When watching a foreign film . . .

a) I prefer it in its original form – no subtitles b) I prefer it with subtitles c) I prefer it dubbed into English d) I would never watch a foreign film

Question 19: The UK’s biggest cultural contribution to Europe has been our . . .

a) Sport b) Literature c) Music d) Art

Question 20: The European lifestyle is best summed up as . . .

a) Opera and art galleries b) Sport and music c) Fashion and film d) Kebabs and the Crazy Frog

22 AM: Well, that’s the end of the third section, one more to go. Meanwhile, you should have four letters to go (gives details of how to send in answers). Now we just asked you some questions about culture, and lifestyle – and for a lot of people this is nonetheless an important part of it, it’s not central but it does matter to some people. Armando, you’re a consumer as well as producer of culture. American or European?

ARMANDO IANNUCCI: Britain, I think is heavily influenced by American culture, but so is the rest of the world, that doesn’t make us particularly American. Alistair Cooke has said that Britain and America are divided by the same language, and I think in the last two or three years, as we’ve looked to what’s gone on in America, we’ve realised what an odd country it is.

AM: So it’s a stupid choice – you’re saying don’t make that choice. We’re British, we’re not one of the other . . .

AI: Yes, and also I think in the last couple of years, I think we’ve actually moved a bit further away from America, we’ve grown suspicious of that country and how it works, how its politics works, how it politically appoints judges. Hurricane Katrina has shown it’s a very, very divided nation. It’s not like Britain at all. And I think also the sentiment about Iraq is much more in line with mainland Europe than it is with America.

AM: Sure. There’s a lot more to life than consuming culture in that sense. Tanni, when you’re competing on the continent of Europe, you’re mixing with athletes from Germany and France and so on, do you notice lifestyle differences that matter in any sense? Or do you think an outsider would say, ‘they’re all basically the same this lot’?

TANNI GREY-THOMPSON: No it’s funny, because when you go to different competitions, you know, the Swiss are amazingly well organised and so are the Germans; and the Spanish, it’s all quite laidback and it might start at nine o’clock, or it might start at a quarter past nine. And there is a difference, but if you ask me whether I preferred to be sort of towards America or Europe, then I’d have to say Europe. There’s lots of stuff I love about America, but I think that it’s a divisive society, and I think we fit more easily and are more comfortable with the way Europe is.

AM: Sure.

TGT: I think it’s a better society, I see huge poverty in the States and I see so much inequality, that’s not what I want.

AM: A fair amount of poverty not very far from where we’re sitting of course. Sarfraz, on the . . . I’ll come back to you just in a second Armando. On the American versus European . . .

SARFRAZ MANZOOR: Yeah, I mean it just seems that sometimes the fact that we share the same language with the Americans and we watch the films and the music actually disguises the links that we have with Europe, because the part of me which feels European is the part of me which believes in a welfare state, and believes in progressive tax, or doesn’t believe in guns and religion in that kind of way. And I think those are the things that tie us more and sometimes the fact that we’re all watching Hollywood and we’re all listening to Britney Spears, it kinds of masks our closeness to the European model, I think.

AM: Okay, well I’m going to come back to Armando, I promise, in the next section, but meanwhile, back to Dara.

DO: Possibly an interesting test to ask yourself at this stage would be if you had to leave Britain where would you go? [to audience member] Sir, if you had to leave Britain, where would you go?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Ireland.

23 DO: You’d go to Ireland, oh you’re very kind, thanks very much, you little charmer. (laughter from audience) Tony Sefton isn’t it, Tony, where would you go?

TONY SEFTON: Finland.

DO: Finland. Any particular reason?

TS: Well there’s a few reasons: nature, the cross country skiing, saunas, pretty women.

DO: Saunas and pretty women. Unfortunately not always at the same time.

TS: Well sometimes.

DO: Usually it’s with a big Finnish man and some birch. Have you been to Finland?

TS: I have yes, I lived there for three and a half years.

DO: Okay, so you’d go back. Is there anything you’d miss about Britain, that you’d bring with you?

TS: There’s a couple of things that I wasn’t able to buy out there, when I was living there. One was Byrd’s custard, and the other was Marmite.

DO: Marmite? You’d bring marmite? Would you bring it all? On behalf of those of us who don’t like Marmite you could bring it over in a big tanker and the rest of us never have to put up with it again. It’d be glorious. How do you picture yourself, how do you think it’s going for your answers so far?

TS: Well, I think I know which one I am, because I am quite pro-Europe. I think I’m Mr Chiantishire.

DO: You’re Mr Chiantishire? Because so far your answers are Mr Costa Del Sol. (laughter from the audience) Stripping away your affection for women and saunas, you’re coming across as relatively eurosceptic, as if we’ve gone to far on the actual issues. Are you surprised with that?

TS: Yes I am a bit.

DO: Okay, grand. Well that’s the way it’s looking at the moment, I’m going to pass it back over to you, Andrew.

AM: I’m beginning to wonder about this test. On to the last part of it, however. This is called Euro Work. Five questions, twenty seconds to answer each one.

Question 21: If you’re looking for a new job, would you . . .

a) actively look for a job in Europe b) consider a job in Europe positively c) think about working in Europe but would not be that keen d) definitely rule out working elsewhere in Europe

Question 22: On the euro, do you think we should . . .

a) adopt it in place of the Pound as soon as possible b) keep our options open and probably adopt the Euro at some point c) keep our options open but probably not adopt the Euro for the foreseeable future d) decide to keep the Pound and rule out the Euro completely

24 Question 23: Newly emerging economies such as India and China make it important that we . . .

a) make ourselves completely independent of the EU b) distance ourselves a little from the EU c) look to integrate more with the EU d) integrate completely with the EU

Question 24: If you were to visit another country in Europe for an extended stay do you think you would . . .

a) make sure you could speak the language b) learn enough of the new language to get by c) give the language a try but probably give up d) hope to get by in English

Question 25: Being part of Europe makes . . .

a) it easier to work across the EU b) me think about working elsewhere c) no difference to job opportunities d) it easier for Europeans to take our jobs

That is the end of the test. (applause from audience, AM gives details of how to phone and text in answers) Once that is done you should be given a final result, which puts you into one of those four groups that we mentioned earlier. It is entirely unscientific, it is all a joke. Dara?

DA: One interesting point has occurred during the thing, as we’ve gone through section by section, because we haven’t got an overall result for people yet, we just do it by section, as goes along, the answers have swayed from group to group across the studio. On some times, you’ll be quite eurosceptic, sometimes you’ve been quite pro-Europe. But let me remind you again what the four categories are on our Eurometer or (pronounces differently) Euro-meter, we haven’t really worked that out.

Mr and Mrs Chiantishire. This group are euro enthusiasts. They like all things European from going on holiday to sun-dried tomatoes and good red wine. They want to move forward with the European project, further integration, adopt the euro and stand by the EU rather than NATO.

Mr and Ms Dover Straits. This group feel European but want things to stay as they are. They do not want any more countries to join. As far as they are concerned the European ideal has gone far enough, but no further. They enjoy being part of the EU, but think that Britain doesn’t need the euro or more directives from Brussels.

Maybe you’re a part of Mr and Ms Costa Del Sol. This group are the eurosceptics. They want Europe for trading purposes and holidays but that’s it. They don’t like or approve of the European institutions, or the regulations they think have been imposed on this country by the EU. No European Army, no euro, Britain should stand alone or with NATO.

Or maybe Mr and Mrs Little Islanders. This group are the europhobes. They want Britain to pull out of Europe. They think that it is a waste of money and that we are better off on our own. They feel that Europe is wasteful and corrupt, and that everything British is best. They say keep the pound and save our jobs from other Europeans.

AM: Right, well so far, over 100,000 people in different ways have taken part in that test and they’re still flooding in. While lots of clever people with freshly-sharpened pencils are trying to make sense of their answers, I’d quite like to return to one of the fundamental questions we touched on earlier on. Will, in the end, twenty-five countries, histories, cultures

25 and languages – is it remotely possible to run a democratic system with that number of different cultures?

WILL HUTTON: If you mean is it possible to vote for one president and one parliament that makes sense to everybody in Europe, I don’t think so. If you mean is it possible for it to be accountable for those states to work with each other, and for those decisions to be accountable to those particular electorates, then I think it is. So the question, you know . . . I’m throwing back the question that you’ve answered, and I think the system that we’re constructing in Europe is potentially accountable. I want to make one more point, I think that it was really interesting when we got to that previous section, we started talking about America and Europe, we started talking about we feel more European because of the welfare state, we feel more European because of the way we live. This broadcast is coming from a public broadcaster – that’s a very European phenomena, actually what all the twenty-five states in the EU hold in common is this common value set and I think that’s really significant as we really try to work together in an era of globalisation.

AM: Amanda.

AMANDA PLATELL: We only have to look, at the moment, when you talk about where can we go from here, you only have to look at the Bra Wars that we mentioned earlier, and who was responsible for that fiasco: Peter Mandelson, unelected, to show that the whole thing is no longer democratic, it’s unworkable in the state it’s in.

AM: Armando, you satirise this democracy very effectively, can there be a European democracy?

ARMANDO IANNUCCI: Well, I mean, my approach to things like that is to be perplexed by how complex they are. The point I was wanting to make earlier . . .

AM: (speaking over) If they’re that complicated, if they’re so complicated ordinary people can’t understand them, can it be a democratic system ever.

AI: Well, I think the benefit of the fact that the referendum in France and Holland against the Constitution went ‘no’, might actually give the politicians in Europe pause for thought, and it really goes back to Peter’s point about it’s not about national identity, and therefore what is Europe about? The whole concept of cultural identity – even in America – has been under question . . .

AM: (interjects) But it . . . it could be just a useful thing, it could just be a useful economic mechanism, Antony?

ANTONY WORRALL-THOMPSON: I think that’s the basis of it, it’s trade. I mean it can’t be democratic while you’ve got the twenty-five commissioners unelected, you’ve got the council of ministers unelected, the actual European Parliament doesn’t do much about governing Europe. So until we have a ministry that we can actually vote for, I can’t see it ever being democratic.

AM: Julia you were waxing, if not lyrical, at least relatively enthusiastic about the euro and the European superstate earlier on. How would you answer the question that people and other people were making earlier about it just not being possible to have a democratic Europe.

JULIA GASH: Well we elect our European representatives who have co-decision in the EU institutions, so it is democratic, we all have a vote. But one of the problems is that our politicians have been shamefully quiet on the issue of Europe, nobody really knows who their MEP is, so I think the politicians need to be more vocal, need to be more visible, and then when we can see that Brussels is not this cloud-covered fortress, but is actually closer to home, then I think we’d feel a little bit more assured about it being democratic.

AM: Alright, thank you very much. One last burst from you all shortly, Dara?

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DO: Right, we can give you some indication of how the people who are taking the test this evening are feeling. It has been quite interesting the way it’s reflected how complex this situation is. As we’ve gone through the sections, the opinion of the audience has swayed from one side to the other. Section One was ‘Euro People’, most people in the room came out as Chiantishire on ‘Euro People’ – broadly I think there’s a very positive attitude towards other European peoples. However, ‘Euro Politics’ it became split, between Chiantishire – strongly pro-Europe, and Costa Del Sol – the eurosceptics. By the time we got to Euro Leisure, the majority were Costa Del Sol. Of the people we’ve met so far, (to audience member who drew picture earlier in programme) Emily how are you? With the picture here. Emily, where do you think you came?

EMILY CARTER: Erm. Costa del Sol.

DO: Costa del Sol, you think you’re Costa del Sol. Even more than that, you’re the only Little Islander of the people we’ve been talking to tonight. (laughter from the audience) strongly anti-Europe. John Fletcher who we spoke to got almost all of the questions right, he’s Chiantishire, congratulations. And Sean, who we spoke to earlier on, who’s buying the house in Spain – Dover Straits, so you got in just under the wire on being pro-Europe – which is a useful thing to bring with you to Spain. The greatest concentration of Chiantishires, now how do we do this, across the nation, there are certain towns in which there were more than others, the greatest concentration of Chiantishires was to be found in . . . . in Derry, stroke Londonderry – depending on which way you want to call it – I have to be very careful of that! (laughter from audience), that’s the highest density of Chiantishires there. For Dover Straits – Swansea, we’re getting a spread across the country, alright. Southampton for the eurosceptic Costa del Sol, and for the Little Islanders? Plymouth, interestingly enough. So, the sea-going places have the most fear of Europe. (laughter from the audience) That may be traditional. Not sure now whether or not whether we have the age [breakdown] . . . no. We are going to say this is not a scientific survey by the way, is that safe to say Andrew?

AM: It certainly is not a scientific survey, of course, it’s all self-selected, you’re all wonderful people, but it ain’t science. Now, one final question really for the panel, and this is not a question again about what you would like to happen, it’s your best gut guess about what Europe is going to be like, and our relation from it ten years hence. Not an inordinate length, Will?

WILL HUTTON: In ten years’ time, Europe’s going to be more prosperous and we are going to have the same or a deeper relationship with it than we have now, it will be more democratic and it will be much easier to make the argument in favour of it.

AM: Tanni:

TANNI GREY-THOMPSON: I think we’ll be having the same arguments we’re having now, and the majority of people still won’t understand the benefits or the worries that Europe will cause them.

AM: Stephen?

STEPHEN WALL: Britain will still be a powerful independent country, but on all the issues which matter to us, climate change, terrorism, peace and security, poverty in Africa, we will want as now to cooperate first and foremost with twenty-four other democracies in Europe.

AM: Sarfraz?

SARFRAZ MANZOOR: I think a lot of the debates that we’re having will still be happening in ten years’ time, but I think perhaps what’s happened in America will mean that we’ll be more instinctively European than we are right now.

AM: Amanda?

27 AMANDA PLATELL: The inability to make twenty-five different nations form one institution will just make it creak apart, I think we’ll be less close to Europe in ten years’ time than we are now.

AM: Armando

ARMANDO IANNUCCI: I think mainland Europe will be very, very scared of China, and Britain won’t be integrated in Europe, and it will be even more scared of China.

AM: So, more of China, more fear. Julia?

JULIA GASH: I think in an increasingly global economy, we’re going to recognise more and more that we need international solutions for the common problems that we have and that those problems and solutions will be shared with Europe.

AM: Bridget?

BRIDGET ROSEWELL: I think in ten years’ time, the centrifugal tendencies in Europe will have pushed it further apart, and that we will have recognised that America is just as good a place and just as good a model as Europe is.

AM: Antony?

ANTONY WORRALL-THOMPSON: I think we’ll still have the pound, I think Tony Blair will be president of Europe, and he’ll be having just as much problems trying to convince the Brits that we should be in Europe.

AM: And Peter?

PETER HITCHENS: One ray about, of optimism: we shall have left, we will be an independent country again, and it’s not a little island, this is one of the largest economies in the world, the inventor of democracy and the rule of law, the possessor of the most widely- spoken language on the globe. There’s nothing little about it, there’s no reason why we have to hide in some other organisation, we should stop doing so, it’s done us no good, cost us billions of pounds, time we left, we’d be on much better terms with all of our neighbours as soon as we did.

AM: I’m quite interested that that is an optimistic outlook. It’s very often said that the anti- EU faction are pessimistic and the Europeans are optimistic – you could tilt it the other way around, actually, you could say that genuine patriotism, genuine optimism about this country would tilt you against Europe, Stephen?

STEPHEN WALL: Patriotism, I think is completely unrealistic, and is a recipe for disaster for our country.

AM: Hmm. Okay, well, we’ve done our best, we’re never going to get a consensus, we’re never going to get any kind of agreement on this. In a way, thank goodness because that is the democratic culture. If you’ve played along using the more traditional way of pen and paper this evening, you may still get your results by visiting us online, and the test can be found at www.bbc.co.uk/howeuroareyou and it’s going to stay there for a while so others can have a go. Listen, I hope we’ve been able to demystify a little bit, at least some of the European puzzle for you this evening.

DO: And of course, our thanks to everyone here in the studio for taking part and being such good Europeans – well done.

AM: Goodnight, ciao, auf weidersehen, thank you. (applause from audience, closing titles)

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