Volume V Wednesday No. 4 4 - a 29th May, 1963

PA R L I AMENTA R Y D E B ATES

DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICI AL REPORT

CONTENTS BILLS- The Emblems and Names (Prevention of Improper Use) Bill [Col. 475] The Supplementary Supply (1962 and 1963) (No. 2) Bill [Col. 4761

(Committee of Supply) First Schedule- Head S. 19 [Cot. 499.] Second Schedule- Head S. 7 [Col. 5001 Head 5. 11 [Col. 504] Head S. 13 [Col. 505] Head 5. 14 [Col. 506] Head 5. 15 [Col. 5071 Head 5. 17 [Col. 520] Head S. 20 [Col. 524] Head S. 21 [Col. 524] Heads S. 27 and 5. 66 [Col. 525] Heads 5. 29, 5. 33 and S. 36 [Cot. 528] Heads 5. 39 and S. 40 [Col. 531] Head S. 50 [Col. 5321 Head S. 65 [Col. 533] The Port Authorities Bill [Col. 534] The External Loans Bill [Cot. 5481

DI-CHETAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN OLEH THOR BEND CHONG, A.M.N., PENCHETAK KERAJAAN KUALA LUMPUR 1963 FEDERATION OF MALAYA

DEWAN RA'AYAT (HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

Official Report

Fifth Session of the First Dewan Ra`ayat

Wednesday, 29th May, 1963

The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT : The Honourable Mr Speaker, DATO' HAJI MOHAMED NOAH BIN OMAR, S.P.M.J., D.P.M.B., P.I.S., J.P. the Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Defence and Minister of Rural Development, TUN HAJI ABDUL RAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN, S.M.N. (Pekan). the Minister of Internal Security and Minister of the Interior, DATO' DR ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor). the Minister of Finance, ENCHE' TAN SIEW SIN, J.P. (Melaka Tengah). the Minister of Works, Posts and Telecommunications, DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungei Siput). „ the Minister of Transport, DATO' HAJI SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR, P.M.N. (Pontian Utara). the Minister of Labour and Social Welfare, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN (Kuala Pilah). the Minister of Commerce and Industry, DR LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan). the Minister of Education , TUAN HAJI ABDUL HAMID KHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J.P. (Batang Padang). the Assistant Minister of the Interior, ENCHE' CHEAH THEAM SWEE (Bukit Bintang,). the Assistant Minister of Labour and Social Welfare, ENCHE' V. MANICKAVASAGAM, J.M.N., P.J.K. (Klang). the Assistant Minister of Commerce and Industry, TUAN HAJI ABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara). the Assistant Minister of Information and Broadcasting, ENCHE' MOHAMED ISMAIL BIN MOHAMED YUSOF (Jerai). „ ENCHE' ABDUL AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Kuala Langat). „ ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara).

ENCHE' ABDUL RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN, P.J.K. (Krian Laut). „ ENCHE' ABDUL RAZAK BIN HAJI HUSSIN (Lipis). „ ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN OSMAN (Sungei Patani). 471 29 MAY 1963 472

The Honourable TOH MUDA HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI ABDUL RAOF (Kuala Kangsar). ,. TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N., P.I.S. (Segamat Utara).

TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kota Bharu Hilir). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN MOHAMED SHAH , S.M.J. (Johor Bahru Barat). TUAN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID (Seberang Utara). ENCHE' AHMAD BIN HAJI YUSOF, P.J.K. (Krian Darat). TUAN HAJI AZAHARI BIN HAJI IBRAHIM (Kubang Pasu Barat). ENCHE' AZIZ BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam). ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN , A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan). ENCHE' CHAN SINGG SUN (Bentong). ENCHE' CHAN SWEE HO (Ulu Kinta). „ ENCHE' CHAN YOON ONN (Kampar). ENCHE' CHIN SEE YIN (Seremban Timor). ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT (Penang Utara). ENCHE' HAMZAH BIN ALANG , A.M.N. (Kapar). ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N. (Kulim Utara). ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH , A.M.N. (Baling). ENCHE' HARUN BIN PILUS (Trengganu Tengah). ,. ENCHE ' HASSAN BIN MANSOR (Melaka Selatan). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN (Raub). ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN , A.M.N., P.J.K. (Pant). TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu Hulu). ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah). ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan). ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN HAJI KASSIM (Kuala Trengganu Selatan). ENCHE' KANG KOCK SENG (Batu Pahat). ENCHE' K. KARAM SINGH (Damansara). ENCHE' LEE SAN CROON (Kluang Utara). ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim). ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N. (Sepang). ENCHE' LIM JOO KONG , J.P. (Alor Star). ENCHE' LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat). ENCHE' LIU YOONG PENG (Rawang). ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH , J.P. (Port Dickson). ENCHE' MOHAMED BIN UJANG (Jelebu-Jempol). ENCHE' MOHAMED ABBAS BIN AHMAD (Hilir Perak).

ENCHE' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA (Pasir Puteh). ENCHE' MOHAMED NOR BIN MOHD. DAHAN (Ulu Perak).

DATO' MOHAMED HANIFAH BIN HAJI ABDUL GHANI, P.J.K. (Pasir Mas Hulu). TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan). 473 29 MAY 1963 474

The Honourable NIK MAN BIN NIK MOHAMED (Pasir Mas Hilir). ENCHE' NG ANN TECK (Batu'). „ ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Tanah Merah). ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH , A.M.N. (Perlis Utara). „ TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD . SAID (Rembau-Tampin). „ ENCHE' SEAR TENG NGIAB (Muar Pantaj). „ ENCHE' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM (Menglembu). „ TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE, J.M.N., S.M.J., P.I.S. (Batu Pahat Dalaml. TUAN SYED HASHIM BIN SYED AJAM , A.M.N., P.J.K. (Sabak Bernam). „ TUAN SYED JA`AFAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, J.M.N. (Johor Tenggara). ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALI, P.J.K. (Larut Utara). ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan). ENCHE' TAN PHOCK KIN (Tanjong). ENCHE' TAN TYE CHEK (Kulim-Bandar Bahru). „ TENGKU BESAR INDERA RAJA IBNI AL-MARHUM SULTAN IBRAHIM, D.K., P.M.N. (Ulu Kelantan). ENCHE' TOO JOON HING (Telok Anson). „ ENCHE' V. VEERAPPEN (Seberang Selata). „ WAN SULAIMAN BIN WAN TAM, P. J.K. (Kota Star Selatan). WAN YAHYA BIN HAJI WAN MOHAMED (Kemaman). ENCHE' YAHYA BIN HAJI AHMAD (Bagan Datoh). „ ENCHE' YONG Woo MING (Sitiawan). „ PUAN HAJJAH ZAIN BINTI SULAIMAN, J.M.N., P.I.S. (Pontian Selatan). TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB (Langat). ENCHE' ZULKIFLEE BIN MUHAMMAD (Bachok). ABSENT : The Honourable the Prime Minister, Minister of External Affairs and Minister of Information and Broadcasting, Y.T.M. TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M. (Kuala Kedah). the Minister Without Portfolio, DATO' SULEIMAN BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N. (Muar Selatan). „ the Minister Without Portfolio, DATO' ONG YOKE LIN, P.M.N. (Ulu Selangor). the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE' MOHAMED KHIR BIN JOHARI (Kedah Tengah). „ the Minister of Health , ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BIN HAJI TALIB (Kuantan). „ ENCHE' AHMAD BOESTAMAM (Setapakl. „ DR BURHANUDDIN BIN MOHD. NOOR (Besot). ENCHE' V. DAVID (Bungsar). „ DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-Padang Terap). „ TUAN HAJI HASAN ADLI BIN HAJI ARSHAD (Kuala Trengganu Utara). 475 29 MAY 1963 476

The Honourable TUAN HAJI HASSAN BIN HAJI AHMAD (Tumpat).

CHE' KHADIJAH BINTI MOHD. SIDEK (Dungun). ENCHE' KHONG KOK YAT (Batu Gajah). ENCHE' MOHAMED DAHARI BIN HAJI MOHD. ALI (Kuala Selangor). ENCHE' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh). ENCHE' QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Barat). ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh). ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Melaka). DATO' TEOH CHZE CHONG, D.P.M.J., J.P. (Segamat Selatan). WAN MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ALI (Kelantan Hilir). ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruns).

IN ATTENDANCE : The Honourable the Minister without Portfolio, ENCHE' KHAW KAI-BOH , P.J.K.

PRAYERS Permaisuri Agong from being repro- duced. Now, although for the present (Mr Speaker in the Chair) the provisions in the Bill relate to names and emblems contained in the BILLS Schedule to the Bill, there is provision under Clause 7 of the Bill for altera- THE EMBLEMS AND NAMES tion and additions to be made if the (PREVENTION OF IMPROPER need arises. USE) BILL Sir, I beg to move. Second Reading The Minister of Finance ( The Deputy Prime Minister Enche' Tan (Tun Haji Siew Sin Abdul Razak bin Dato ): Sir, I beg to second the ' Hussain): Mr motion. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled "an Act to prevent the Question put, and agreed to. improper use of certain emblems and Bill accordingly read a second time names for professional and commercial and committed to a Committee of the purposes" be read a second time. This whole House. is a very short and simple Bill. In the House immediately resolved itself past there were occasions when certain into a Committee on the Bill. emblems, which were exclusively meant for use by the Federation Bill considered in Committee. Government, had been reproduced for commercial purposes. For instance, the (Mr Speaker in the Chair) first day covers produced in conjunc- Clauses 1 to 7 tion with the special issue of stamps inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill. for the First Anniversary of Merdeka showed in some cases the likeness of Schedule ordered to stand part of the His Majesty together with the Com- Bill. munist emblem of the Dove of Peace. Bill reported without amendment : Again, there had been instances where read the third time and passed. pictorial representations of Their Majesties were printed on Hari Raya THE SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY cards. It has not been possible to (1962 AND 1963) (No. 2) BILL prevent these undesirable practices in the past because of the absence of any Second Reading legislation to prevent emblems and The Minister of Finance (Enche' Tan photographs of Their Majesties the Siew Sin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to Yang di-Pertuan Agong and the Raja move that a Bill intituled "an Act to 477 29 MAY 1963 478

apply sums out of the Consolidated requires to be recouped. In regard to Fund for additional expenditure for supply expenditure, the biggest item is the service of the years 1962 and 1963 $75,172,733 in respect of Head S. 15, and to appropriate such sums for Ministry of Defence, to meet expendi- certain purpose" be read a second time. ture resulting from the expansion of the Armed Forces. The House is aware This Bill seeks authority in regard that the rapid expansion of the Armed to two separate sets of Supplementary Forces has been forced on us by the Estimates, one for the year 1962 and tension which now exists. The next one for 1963. A fourth supplement is two fairly large items are $1,221,436 required for 1962 while a second required for Head S. 27 Broadcasting, supplement is now required for 1963. to establish the Overseas Broadcast Service and $1,551,413 for Head S. Clause 2 of the Bill seeks authority 29 Ministry of the Interior, to pro- for additional expenditure of $1,412,649 vide part of the funds for acquiring for the service of the year 1962, and a piece of land adjacent to the Chin this is itemised in the First Schedule Woo Stadium for a public purpose. of the Bill and also in the Supply Expenditure section of the Fourth As the details regarding the addi- Supplementary Estimates 1962 which tional sums required are given in the is tabled as Command Paper No. 12 Treasury memoranda on the two sets of 1963. 4 of estimates which have been tabled, it is not necessary for me to elaborate The original estimates approved by further on the other and smaller Parliament for 1962 amounted to items. The Ministers concerned will no $1,039,000,000. Taking both the doubt explain their own items in "supply" and "charged" expenditure greater detail during the Committee into consideration, total estimated ex- stage. penditure, including the three previous supplements and the present supple- Sir, I beg to move. ment which the House is now requested to approve, would amount to Tun Haji Abdul Razak : Sir, I beg $1,134,138,651. The actual total expen- to second the motion. diture for 1962, however, amounted to $1,072,450,000. Hence, not all the Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong): additional money of about $95 million Mr Speaker, Sir, in the course of intro- provided by way of supplementary ducing this Bill, the Honourable the provision has been expended. Actual Minister of Finance took great pains expenditure, in fact, exceeded the to explain to us the necessity of addi- original estimates by about $33 million tional expenditure due to quite a num- only. ber of circumstances. The biggest in- crease, however, it would be noted, is in Clause 3 of the Bill seeks authority regard to defence, and the Minister to incur additional expenditure of has taken great pains to explain to this $80,858,555 in respect of the year 1963 House that this is necessary in view as itemised in the Second Schedule of of the growing tension with our the Bill and also in the Second Supple- neighbours. However, Sir, we must ment,ary Estimates, 1963, which are appreciate whether this is a matter due laid before the House as Command to misunderstanding on our part, or Paper No. 14 of 1963. The second that it is due to aggressiveness on the document also discloses that a suns of part of our neighbours. It has been $6,035,022 consisting of "charged" ex- pointed out in this House, during the penditure is required, so that the total course of the debate, that our neigh- expenditure covered by the Second Sup- bours are not entirely to be blamed and plementary Estimates, 1963, is really that as far as the Government is con- $86,893,557. A sum of $12,775,282 has cerned, it has been at fault on a quite a already been provided from the number of occasions. In the course of Contingencies Fund to meet that urgent the debate also, on the question of portion of the expenditure which now loan which we are seeking from the 479 29 MAY 1963 480

British Government, I have pointed can be found so that the resources of out that the British Government as our country can be utilised more unable to accommodate us to the full beneficially towards improving the extent asked for by the Honourable living standards of our people. Minister of Finance. What is of As pointed out by the Honourable importance is that it has been pointed Minister of Finance , supplementary to us that even if we cannot get the budgets are necessary because we requisite amount of money for our own could not envisage certain expenditure defences, we need not worry should an being incurred at the time when we emergency arise, because the British were preparing our budget. But 1 Government will be quite prepared, must point out, Sir , that sometimes according to her treaty arrangements supplementary budgets are necessary with us, to send forces to assist us. because of Government extravagance, On this particular score, we must appreciate the fact that getting assis- because of unnecessary spending on means essential ; tance is merely one thing but that things that are by no creating fear on the part of our neigh- and it may sometimes be due to the bours is another matter of importance. inefficiency of the Government in being As the Government is quite aware, we unable to carry out certain projects in the Federation of Malaya can hardly with the personnel and with the funds afford to spend our money on armed allotted. On this I would like to refer I think are forces ; we won't have enough money to a few things which even to enable our Five-Year Plan to relevant and which would give sub- be carried out, which is a very modest stance to my allegation. one and which, as pointed out by the Firstly, Sir, for the first time in the Member for Kuala Langat, will only history of this Government, or perhaps result in giving us a lower standard it is unprecedented anywhere else for of living. Even that we find it difficult a Government to have no less than to sustain. On top of that, if we are three Ministers without Portfolios; in going to spend large sums of money other words, we are paying ministerial on our defences, it will make things salaries to people who are not doing even more difficult. However, I must their work. It may be pointed out that point out that one of the things which Ministers without Portfolios may assist we must remove is the fear on the part the present Ministers to carry out their of our neighbours. Similarly, we say duties, and they may have to do that we must have a strong defence specialised work . But up to date we force, because we fear our neighbours. do not know what specialised work So, on both sides it is that fear we such Ministers without Portfolios are fear that they may attack us and they doing. We have one in Australia and, fear that we may attack them. So the as far as I can see, he is so busy with solution to this lies in removing this his work as High Commissioner that fear, and I hope that in the course of I don't think that he has time for any- the meeting of the Honourable Prime thing else, or perhaps his health does Minister and the President of the not permit him to do anything else. Republic of Indonesia, we can find a But there is another important issue : solution in removing this fear, so that should portfolios be created as a sort both parties need not spend unneces- of pension to Ministers who are not of sary money on having defence forces of good health? We are expending public this nature. As I pointed out, one of the funds . If we employ a Division I most crucial points that brings distrust officer, or for that matter we employ on the part of our neighbours is the anybody in the Government Service, fact that foreign troops will be stationed the first concern of the Government is in Malaysia, obviously with foreign to have that person medically examined commanders. With troops of this to see that he is fit; and if in the nature present on the borders of Indo- course of duty that person were to ask nesia, surely we cannot expect the for leave now and again, he will then Indonesians not to be perturbed, and have to be sent to be examined again it is my sincere hope that a solution to see whether he is fit, and if he is 481 29 MAY 1963 482 not fit, he will be medically boarded sioner in Australia, it would not have out. So, why should not the same been necessary for him to return to criteria, if that criteria can be applied Malaya, incurring all the unnecessary to Government servants, be applied to expenditure. This, Sir, is an example, the Ministers since, after all, Ministers and I say a very glaring example, of also derive money from the Crown? inefficiency on the part of the Govern- Furthermore, we have a Minister in ment which incurred a waste of public America and another Minister without money. Portfolio here. It must be pointed out here, Sir, that the present Ministers are Thirdly, Sir, I come to a thing which well known for their ability to handle is well known to the people of this many portfolios besides their own. The country and that is the craze of the efficiency in handling them is well- Alliance Government for prestige. This known to the people of this country. is demonstrated by the desire to travel How they handled the Health Ministry in big American cars and the craze for in dual capacity as Assistant Minister such things. I think it is a fallacy and of Commerce and Industry as well as it is well known that the Government the Acting Minister of Health is well- appears to think that one's prestige is known to us all. Similarly we have also judged by the car one travels in. If seen similar activities of Ministers in today our financial position is such other capacities. So I ask, Sir, whether that we do not have to go abroad all this is necessary. If the Ministers begging for assistance, if our financial are in a position to handle all these resources are such that we are so, rich jobs, then why is it necessary to have that we can even lend to people abroad, Ministers without Portfolios? It is then I would not have raised any understandable if you have one, but to objection to expenditure of this nature. have three is a matter which the But since it has been admitted by none Government must explain. other than the Minister of Finance that the coming years will be difficult years Secondly, I would like to speak on as far as our financial position is con- the question of unnecessary expendi- cerned, I think it is mere extravagance ture because of the fact that the and mere irresponsibility on the part Government is inefficient, and I give of the Government to incur expenditure this not as a statement from me as a for things of such nature. The Minister member of the Opposition it is from will, of course, point out that this is a statement of one who is in the a very small item as compared with Government, who is a Minister. We the total size of our budget, but I must read in the newspapers that when the say that savings in little things here former Minister of the Interior returned and there will amount to quite a great back in his capacity as High Commis- deal, and one would expect that the sioner, he mentioned the fact that he Minister of Finance would be more had to come back to get more staff. prudent in such matters. However, Sir, lie had written so many letters to the it appears to us that he is not. He is Government but had received no reply, only concerned with savings that will so much so that it was necessary for deprive the ra`ayat of this country of him in spite of his ill-health to rush having a better life, whereas he is not home to Malaya to see the Govern- concerned in having savings here and ment in person so as to get the neces- there which will give Ministers a more sary staff. So, Sir, here we have an extravagant way of living. This can be example of unnecessary expenditure in seen throughout the supplementary air passage for the Minister. Here we budget not only produced in this House have an example of inefficiency on the today but time and again, and it is my part of the Government, and it was earnest hope that the Government will uttered by none other a Minister with- give very serious consideration to all out Portfolio himself. Had the Govern- these things. All these things mention- ment been more efficient, had it ed by me can be remedied, but,. attended to whatever queries that were however, the Government for some being raised by the High Commis- reason or other is reluctant to do so. 483 29 MAY 1963 484

Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam (Meng- somebody who has no more moral lembu): Mr Speaker, Sir, if a large right to speak for the people of sum of money had been asked for Singapore. It is trying to bring Singa- for the purpose of defence against pore into the Federation as a result of possible invasion by Indonesia and a referendum based on a document there is no reason why we should try which was left deliberately vague to conceal who our potential enemies Senator T. H. Tan had said that Lee are, if money was asked for that Kuan Yew had asked the Federation purpose and if it was declared that to leave it vague, and presumably the invasion by Indonesia was imminent, Federation agreed to hoodwink the then we would strongly support expendi- people of Singapore by leaving certain ture not only of $75 million but much things vague. more than that. But it seems to me Now, surely even at this late stage and it seems to most people, not in the Honourable the Prime Minister the Alliance, that this sum of money should let his conscience guide him. is asked for, not because of facing a We are talking of people coming in threat from Indonesia, but because the voluntarily. Take the case of Brunei. Government needs to expand its armed Who are the people who represent the forces to keep in subjugation the people of Brunei? Are they not the peoples of Singapore and the Borneo elected representatives, those who were territories, who are going to be forced elected at an election? All those people into the Federation of Malaysia. It is have opposed the entry of Brunei into for that reason I say that this money the Federation and they are all under is asked for ulterior purposes, and not lock and key. And who purports now for the purposes which the Govern- to speak for the people of Brunei and ment would have us believed. If an without shame? We hear the Head of attack by Indonesia is imminent, then the State saying that the people of I would say that this country, this Brunei are coming voluntarily into this Government, is not in a position to Federation. How could he say such a build up sufficient strength within the thing and profess to be a democrat? forthcoming months to meet that invasion. It would have to depend I would now like to refer briefly to entirely on foreign intervention, on Command Paper No. 15 of 1963, Head intervention by the United States, by 5. 29, Ministry of the Interior, item the British. Therefore, it is my view 24, Expenses of Advisory Board. A that this money is not asked primarily sum of money is asked for to meet the for the purpose of meeting foreign payment of allowances and transport attack but that it is asked for for the and travelling expenses of the Chair- purpose of keeping within and under man of the Advisory Board. Now, I the Government's yoke the people, who have pointed out before that this whole are being reluctantly brought into this system of Advisory Board is a complete Federation. farce, that it is a denial of justice, that an accused person is not allowed to In Command Paper No. 15 of 1963, be present and his counsel is not under Head S. 15, there appears the allowed to be present when the Govern- comment that one of the main projects ment presents its case. Where in the involved in the present build-up is the world other than in a dictatorship 4th Federal Infantry Brigade for the could you find that? A man is tried and Singapore area. Now, if the people of enquired into in his absence; his Singapore are coming in voluntarily, lawyer has got to wait in another if they are going to be happy, if they building; the detainee has got to wait are overjoyed at coming in, what is in another building; the President of the need to prepare for the military the Board or Chairman of the Board occupation of the island of Singapore? listens to what the Police has to say, Is that not sufficient evidence that this listens to the secret witnesses produced Government is terrified at the prospect by the Police and when all of them of what is going to happen in are sent back, then suddenly a `phone Singapore? It is now negotiating with call comes to the lawyer saying, "The 485 29 MAY 1963 486 way is now clear. You can come with hanan yang bagini besar, maka nyata- your client". That is a perfect disgrace lah Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah to the administration of justice. I have Melayu telah di-paksa bagi memikul raised that matter in this House before satu perbelanjaan yang tidak mesti and we have had no denial of that. di-pikul-nya sendiri. Hal ini akan If that is going on, then I say, "Scrap bertambah rumit apabila kita lihat this whole Advisory Board system. kepichekan yang telah di-tunjokkan Lock up people as you like and tell oleh Kerajaan yang hendak berchampor them you will release them when you dengan Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah want to release them". There is no use Melayu dan saya sebutkan dengan of this farce. khas-nya bahawa Kerajaan Singapura yang di-dalam soal kewangan ini ada- Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad lah sentiasa menunjokkan belang-nya (Bachok): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dalam kapada kita bahawa mereka itu hendak Second Supplementary Estimates, 1963, mencherdekkan diri dalam soal mi. yang di-kemukakan pada hari ini satu Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sama ada soal. daripada perbelanjaan yang besar ia- pertahanan negeri ini dapat benar2 lah untok belanja pertahanan Perse- merupakan pertahanan yang boleh dan kutuan Tanah Melayu dengan tam- berkesan bagi menentang musoh2 dari bahan $75.1 juta. Saya tentu-lah luar ada-lah satu perkara yang tidak memandang bahawa soal pertahanan dapat di-tentukan oleh hanya per- ini ada-lah satu soal yang mustahak belanjaan sa-banyak $75 juta atau bagi sa-buah negara Persekutuan Tanah lebeh, tetapi yang mustahak is-lah Melayu dan kita bersetuju supaya di- bahawa tentera2 dalam negeri ini perbesarkan pertahanan Persekutuan hendak-lah di-beri kapada orange yang Tanah Melayu kita sekarang, chuma benar2 sanggop memikul tanggong- saya memandang bahawa jangan-lah jawab bagi mempertahankan negeri mi. hendak-nya Persekutuan Tanah Melayu Saya sebutkan demikian, Tuan Yang ini terpaksa memikul beban perbelan- di-Pertua, sebab saya perhatikan pada jaan pertahanan sa-mata2 kerana masa2 yang akhir2 ini dalam soal ranchangan Malaysia sebab Kerajaan ketenteraan ini telah di-longgarkan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu telah dapat kapada orange yang baharu sahaja mengechilkan belanja pertahanan-nya mendapat kera`ayatan-nya dalam negeri bukan kerana tentera, tetapi meman- mi. Oleh sebab itu, pada pendapat dangkan yang perkara itu ada-lah lebeh saya hendak-lah menjadi dasar Kera- besar dahulu sa-kira-nya dia berdiri jaan bahawa pertahanan negeri ini sendiri, dan sekarang ini nyata bahawa hendak-lah di-beri kapada orange yang pertahanan ini di-perbesarkan dengan sudah mendapat kera`ayatan-nya betul2 tujuan hendak mempertahankan negeri is-itu dengan tidak di-shak lagi sadikit ini, bukan sa-bagai Persekutuan Tanah pun kapada negeri ini. Sa-mata2 ber- Melayu sahaja tetapi juga sa-bagai pegang kapada quota yang di-buat Kerajaan Malaysia. baharu2 ini is-itu tuj oh puloh peratus Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita melulus- di-beri kapada orange Melayu dan kan perbelanj aan yang bagini besar tiga puloh peratus di-beri kapada dalam Parlimen Persekutuan Tanah orange yang bukan Melayu dengan Melayu yang kewangan-nya ada-lah sa-mata2 kerana hendak mengadakan berkehendakkan penjimatan, kalau racial balance dalam tentera tidak-lah di-jaga dan di-perhatikan perbelan- chukup. Soal ini bukan balance atau jaan-nya. Oleh sebab yang demi- perembangan di-dalam bilangan ang- kian, saya ingin mengetahui daripada gota2 dan bilangan orang ramai di- Keraj aan bagaimana-kah proportion negeri ini, tetapi hendak-lah di-adakan atau pembahagian tanggongan belanja satu balance yang timbul dalam kesang- di-antara Keraj aan2 yang lain yang gupan mereka mempertahankan negeri ingin masok diri mereka dalam Malay- ini dengan jiwa yang penoh semangat. sia bagi memikul belanj a pertahanan. Sa-kira-nya mereka itu tidak sanggop Tuan Yang di-Pertua, musoh kita memberi tanggong-jawab dan memberi yang ada di-hadapan kita bukan-lah sumbangan kewangan kapada perta- sa-mata2 senjata, tetapi fahaman2 yang 487 29 MAY 1963 488 akan menyeludup dengan ada-nya Malaya was once a very happy land, orange yang belum chukup keta`atan full of honey and sunshine, and our mereka itu di-benarkan dalam keten- expenditure on defence and internal teraan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu mi. security is a matter of recurrent Satu daripada perbelanjaan yang expenses. However, today, as a result telah di-manta dalam Dewan ini is-fah of the formation of Malaysia, we have perbelanjaan kapada Royal Federation taken upon ourselves the defence of of Malaya Police. Perbelanj aan yang Malaysia which includes Singapore di-kehendaki ini ada-lah tambahan and the. Borneo territories. kapada perbelanjaan2 yang tertentu Sir, the formation of Malaysia, to my dl-dalam polis. Tetapi, Tuan Yang mind -I may be wrong was the result di-Pertua, di-dalam Dewan ini kelmarin of a whisper by somebody to the Prime telah di-sebutkan oleh Yang Berhor- Minister saying, "Look here, it is a mat dari Pasir Mas Hulu bahawa very good thing if you will form Pasokan Polis ini hendak-lah di-beri Malaysia." I think this Malaysia is pertimbangan yang sa-wajar-nya bagi formed by somebody who was once membolehkan mereka itu memikul interested in big business in India bebanan mereka yang lebeh besar sa- known as the East India Company. I perti yang kita ketahui pada masa mi. think the formation of Malaysia will Saya maseh merasa bahawa Kerajaan be done by a group of traders who are ini tidak chukup menimbangkan dan now forming the East Malaysia memberi layanan kapada anggota polis Company. If it is to the benefit of those yang berjawatan rendah. Qleh sebab traders, then the British Government yang demikian, hal ini hendak-lah should shoulder the defence of di-jadikan dasar bahawa siapa sahaja Malaysia. yang memikul kewajipan menjaga ketenteraman, keamanan dan per- According to a newspaper report, tahanan negeri ini hendak-lah di-beri the Honourable the Minister of layanan yang chukup supaya jangan Finance, and the Honourable the Minis- ada rasa tidak puas hati di-kalangan ter of Defence, have been to Britain mereka itu. Tidak-lah chukup Yang to ask the British Government for Berharmat Menteri Dalam Negeri $200,000,000 to help in the defence, bangun mengatakan saperti yang or a greater part of it. It was a pernah di-katakan oleh Yang Ber- matter of regret that they had not hormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri obtained that assistance. Naturally, pada satu masa dahulu is-itu tidak Britain cannot give us financial help ada rungutan dan tidak ada rasa because she herself has to borrow tidak puas hati di-kalangan mereka money from the British bankers and itu, sebab saya mengetahui bahawa these British bankers are, in fact, well- perasaan itu ada, dan perkara known British traders. As I see it, ini tidak-lah boleh di-ketepikan there is a link between the East India dengan jawapan2 itu. Oleh sebab itu Company and the East Malaysia hendak-lah Kerajaan Persekutuan Company which will soon be formed; Tanah Melayu menimbangkan dengan though they may be different in names, halus kedudokan mereka ini di-dalam they are from that group. It is keadaan kita berhajat kapada meng- important, therefore, that the British kokohkan pertahanan kita dalam negeri Government or the British people ini dan terhadap serangan dari luar. should be responsible for that sum of money. Enche' Chin See Yin (Seremban Timor): Mr Speaker, Sir, on this Bill Now, Sir, if you look at the asking for a supplementary sum of Schedule, you will see that a lot of money, just because of Malaysia, I money will be required for the purchase think we are being a little extravagant of aircraft for the Air Force, vehicles to shoulder the entire responsibility on for the Army, and ships for the Navy. the question of defence by ourselves. I We are small little island, dotted all think the Government is asking a over this part of the world, where the little too much. The Federation of British Navy can come, and if they 489 29 MAY 1963 490 have no time to do so, they can send 48 seats. Where is the fairness? From a few ships to us rather than asking that alone fear and suspicion are no us to buy them. There is no reason doubt created in the minds of the for it. Afterall, they have the responsi- people and then the people in Borneo bility to look after the Borneo terri- and the people in Singapore will say, tories. But now that little whisper has "How funny this is. We are now in gone into the ears of our Leader and one territory, or in one Government we have to take over the responsi- called the Malaysian Government, and bility, and surely they should not yet the defence of our States is now expect us to spend such a large sum left in the hands of the Federation of money. That large sum of money people. What are they up to? Are we which we propose to spend could well partners, or are we their equals". Sir, be spent on education and development this sort of thing does not make it in this country. As I have just said, right. We should be fair. First the before Malaysia we are quite happy British Government should be made and devoting what little income we to pay a greater sum. If there is a have got for education and develop- need to have more ships for our Navy, ment. Now it appears that everybody's let the British Government give us a pocket will be dug into for a little few. If we need more aircraft for more money and, perhaps, in next defence, let us ask the British Govern- year's budget we will see that taxes ment to give them to us. Afterall, who will be increased, and increased by a will benefit? The people who are large amount. And who will be taxed? known as the East Malaysia Company, Those people in the lower income etc., etc. (Laughter). group and they are the people who Sir, if that is the position, then I will suffer most not the rich. The say that we are very extravagant in rich can afford it but not the poor. spending this money, which we can Now, Sir, is it worth it to spend a large make use of for a better purpose to sum of money in respect of the new the benefit of the people of this country. nation called Malaysia, when the Another point which I would like to citizens in this country cannot go to raise is this is there really an external the Borneo territories to trade or to threat? If there is, then let us spend seek employment? They can only go not only $200 million, but let us spend there with the authority of the Immi- more than $200 million for defence, if gration Authority of the Borneo there is the need. But if there is no Government. Yet the Malayan people threat, what is the necessity for wasting are told, "Look, if you do not give this good money money that can be this money, there will be no happy well spent for education, for building Malaysia". Is it, in fact, a happy Malay- more schools, and for developing more sia, when we have got to tighten our land? belts just for the development of the Borneo territories to benefit the Borneo When we come to the Committee people? I am not trying to be selfish. Stage of the Bill, I will speak further I am trying to ask for a fair deal for regarding the purchase of vehicles. the people whom we represent and Thank you. who elected us to this Parliament. Enche' V. Veerappen (Seherang Again, Sir, on the question of Malay- Selatan) : Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very sia, fear and suspicion have already much surprised indeed at the provision existed. In one way it is right before in the Supplementary Supply Bill for us. Take the State of Singapore and the Rentals of Flats and Quarters for the three territories of Borneo. In Federal Reserve Units in Singapore. Singapore you have a population of I am indeed surprised what the approximately 1.7 million and you have functions of these Reserve Police are. allotted them only 15 seats, whereas But, anyway, we have read from the in the case of the Borneo territories, papers that our Reserve Units were with a population of 1.2 million people, used in Brunei, and that matter was you have given them approximately argued here in this House, and I 491 29 MAY 1963 492 thought that Singapore was just a Unit appears to me to be the pressure jumping off ground. Now it appears group, "bully-boys", of the Alliance in Singapore. If it is so, I am afraid Government. (Laughter). You would that the Reserve Unit is to be stationed have noticed, Mr Speaker, Sir, the way we have assumed responsibility for the the answer was given by the Minister policing of the State of Singapore. If of Internal Security to the question that is so, is the Government trying that I raised previously in regard to to show us that the Government of the use of the Reserve Unit in arrest- Singapore is incapable of looking after ing indiscriminately people in Nibong its own internal security or its own Tebal. The Minister has spoiled the Police matters. Besides, we only know fair name of Nibong Tebal and has that this Government has a representa- tried to justify the use of the Reserve tive on the Singapore Internal Security Unit saying that the increase in Council, and I think he is the Chair- crime..... man. But does that give us the need to do the Police work for the Government Mr Speaker: Order! Order! You of Singapore? I am sure this is not should have made your statement so, and I would like the Minister to during the debate on His Majesty's explain to us how this can be done Speech and not now. You should not and the need for this. Besides, it bring that up again. appears, as also in the case of the Borneo territories, that before Malay- Enche' V. Veerappen: As I was sia is established, before we have talking on the policy, I wanted to give even taken responsibility for these just an example to show that the territories, we have already assumed . . Reserve Unit was used as a pressure group. Dato' Dr Ismail: Sir, on a point of order S.O. 37 (1). The Honourable Mr Speaker: I can allow you an Member is bringing a specific matter example only ! in the general debate on this Bill. I Enche' V. Veerappen: That is only thought he could introduce this subject an example, Sir. (Laughter). As I was when we come to the Committee Stage. saying, the Reserve Unit was used I am surprised that he is allowed to indiscriminately, and the Minister tried go on ! to justify the use of the Reserve Unit Mr Speaker: I have already been by saying that there was an increase watching about this very carefully. The in crime. But this increase in crime Honourable Member is saying some- was directly due to the misguided thing on the policy. That is why I policy of the Government, in that have allowed him to speak he is suspected and would-be criminals are allowed to speak on the policy of any brought from all over Malaya and put service, for which provision is made into Nibong Tebal. (Laughter). I hope in this Bill. he will give the figures to show how many banishees have been sent to ]Enche' V. Veerappen : I was speaking Nibong Tebal and such figure would on the policy, Sir. (Laughter) As I show whether Nibong Tebal is a dirty have been saying just before I was place or not and whether his action interrupted, I am indeed surprised over was justified or not. the policy (Laughter) of the Minister. Actually, if Honourable Members Enche' Chan Yoon Onn (Kampar): will remember, I was going to say that Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to say some- we have already assumed responsibility thing, while speaking on this Supple- for those areas before even Malaysia mentary Bill, in regard to the defence is established, before even the Agree- expenditure which, I think, is unneces- ment is signed. This is just like, what sary if the Government were to take the we call, having "pre-marital relation- middle course. Increasing the defence ship". (Laughter). I am also surprised forces means that we have to use as to the policy over the use of the plenty of man-power, machineries, not Reserve Unit, because the Reserve only to take care of our country but 493 29 MAY 1963 494 also of places around Malaysia. I only Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Speaker, suggest that if the Government would Sir, I am indeed very surprised that have known about this since after members of the Opposition should obtaining independence, Merdeka, it have objected to the supplementary could have taken the middle course. provision for defence. At the last I think all human beings will agree Budget meeting a number of Opposi- with me that the middle course is tion members asked that our expendi- neutrality. If neutrality is declared, the ture on defence should be increased, next day our country will be saved and they included the Honourable of all expenses and there will be a Member for Setapak, the leader of the time -I do not know when when our Socialist Front. Now today we heard country will not have to be in a from the Member for Tanjong that he doomsday, so that Malaya will enjoy was against all this expenditure for for ever good prospects and friendly defence, against the expansion of our relations with whatever people or what- armed forces. This, Sir, to my mind, ever countries we are in association is a clear example of the confusion of with. That is all I wish to say. thought that always pervade the Socialist Front. Enche' Ahmad bin Arshad (Muar Utara): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya Sir, I have made it clear to this ada-lah menyokong atas Rang Undang2 House on a number of occasions that yang telah di-bachakan oleh Yang it has always been the policy of the Berhormat Menteri Kewangan tadi, Alliance Government as far as possible tetapi saya chuma hendak menyentoh to maintain the level of our defence kapada peruntokan tambahan wang expenditure low, compatible with the kerana pertahanan. Dalam hal ini, dignity and the security of our country. gemar saya menguchapkan tahniah During the past 5 Z years we have been serta mengalu2kan perkembalian Pa- able to maintain our defence expendi- sokan Khas Ashkar2 kita dari. Congo. ture at the level of 8 per cent of our Dengan pemergian, atau menjaga total budget, and there are very, very keamanan di-Congo di-bawah panji2 few countries in the world indeed Bangsa2 Bersatu dapat mengharumkan which are in the happy position as we Kerajaan Persekutuan. Sa-lain daripada are today. But, unfortunately, we have itu, gemar saya menguchapkan tahniah now, as a result of Malaysia, a much kapada Yang Berhormat Menteri Per- bigger area to cover and a much tahanan, kerana dengan chekap dan longer coastline to protect; and we lichin-nya pentadbiran beliau bagi have, therefore, to expand our defence menghadapi dan mengatasi confrontasi forces to look after this area. I have yang di-buat oleh Kerajaan Indonesia also stated in this House that this itu dan dengan dapat segera membeli proposal for the expansion of our kapal2 perunda di-lautan kawasan kita. defence forces is largely for the Sa-lain daripada itu, saya gemar support of the internal security and menarek perhatian Kementerian Per- support for the maintenance of law tahanan ini supaya menyelideki dan and order of our country. I would like mengambil langkah yang tegas atas the Honourable Members of the satu kejadian yang berlaku di-Johor Opposition to understand that as an Bahru di-khemah pertahanan ashkar independent country we must be in a kita di-batu 4 yang telah di-serang position to defend our sovereignty and oleh kumpulan yang tidak bertang- our independence and we must have a gong-jawab yang mana menyebabkan certain number of defence forces for salah sa-orang ashkar private kita telah the maintenance of peace and order, mendapat chedera dengan serangan itu. and for the defence of our sovereignty Jadi, saya harap-lah kejadian ini and our independence. We cannot satu kejadian yang luar biasa, dan kita depend on any country to look after har. ap pada masa akan datang perkara our own interests, particularly for our yang sa-umpama ini tidak akan ber- own internal security. That is why we laku lagi pada ashkar kita dengan have to have a certain number of de- keadaan yang sa-demikian itu. fence forces, a number of regiments for 495 29 MAY 1963 496 the armed forces, ships for our navy for the bare necessity of assisting the and also aircraft for our air force. Police in the maintenance of law and order and for the protection of our The Honourable Member for Tan- coastline. We have our Defence jong said that by expanding our armed Treaty with the United Kingdom forces we create fear in the minds of Government and in the event of an our neighbours. As I said, we only external situation, obviously the United want to maintain sufficient forces for Kingdom will come to our assistance. the close defence of our territory. We But we cannot ask the United King- have no aggressive intention. We have dom to patrol our territorial waters or always said so. As a small country, to put down any rebellion that may our only wish is to live in peace with take place in our country. These are our neighbours, to be on the best all eventualities which we must be friendly terms with our neighbours. prepared for and as a responsible But if our sovereignty and our inde- Government the Alliance Government pendence are challenged, then we must must do all this and must maintain take all possible measures to defend sufficient defence forces as well as our country and our sovereignty. Hon- Police forces for the internal security ourable Members are fully aware that and for the maintenance of law and Indonesia has adopted this attitude of order. As I have said again, Sir, I confrontation towards us Indonesia would like to repeat, that we have no has said that we are a security threat aggressive intentions. We, as a small to Indonesia. We must take this nation, merely want to live in peace attitude of Indonesia seriously, if we and on the best friendly terms with all value our independence and value our countries, but if our sovereignty is sovereignty. Therefore, Sir, as the threatened, then we shall take all Minister of Defence responsible for measures to defend our country at the defence of this country, it is my whatever cost, and I think this is the duty to recommend to this House and right policy and this is the policy that to this country that we must have the Alliance Government intends to sufficient defence forces to defend our follow. country in any eventuality, one Hon- ourable Member spoke of neutrality. I Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Bachok do not know what he means by ada berkata bahawa tidak patut-lah neutrality. Whatever policy we adopt kita menanggong perbelanjaan per- externally, we must still have enough tahanan bags negeri2 yang akan masok. defence forces, firstly, to maintain law ka-dalam Malaysia. Jadi menurut and order in our country, and secondly, perjanjian yang kita telah buat dengan to look after the close defence of our Kerajaan British, dan juga dengan dua country. As a small nation, obviously buah negeri yang kita telah putuskan we cannot hope to have sufficient dalam rundingan itu is-itu Sabah dan forces to defend ourselves from external Serawak soal pertahanan is-lah soal threat adequately, and no nation in the kuasa Kerajaan Pusat, bagitu juga world can afford to do that except dengan Singapura dan Brunei. Jadi perhaps the United States and Soviet dengan sebab itu-lah tanggong-jawab Russia. But as I said, as an indepen- Kerajaan Pusat mengadakan tentera2 dent nation, we must have enough untok mempertahankan negara2 mi. defence forces for the maintenance of Berkenaan dengan Sabah dan Sera- law and order in our country and for wak, kedua2 negara itu akan masok the protection of our coastline. This is menjadi negara2 Persekutuan dan the price which we must pay for kuasa ha12 kewangan-nya ada-lah independence and if we are not pre- di-tangan Kerajaan Pusat, dan Kera- pared for this, then we are not fit to jaan Pusat akan menentukan berapa be an independent nation. That I think, banyak chukai2 yang patut di-kenakan Sir. I must make clear to this House. kapada pendudok2 di-negara2 itu The supplementary provisions that I saperti juga negara2 yang lain di-Per- am asking the House to approve are sekutuan Tanah Melayu. Berkenaan merely to expand our armed forces dengan Brunei dan Singapura belum-lah 497 29 MAY 1963 498 dapat putusan lagi atas hal ini, tetapi that they do have regular meetings of nyata-lah bahawa Singapura dan jugs ambassadors from abroad with the Brunei patut-lah sa-bagai dua negara officials, with the Ministers, in their yang mempunyai wang sadikit sa- respective country, so that the repre- banyak patut-lah memberi bantuan sentatives from abroad are made to lebeh sadikit kapada Kerajaan Pusat know the policies of the government, bagi belanja pertahanan negara. Oleh are briefed on what the latest govern- sebab perkara2 ini maseh lagi belum ment policies are; and I think it is putus maka tidak dapat-lah saya necessary that this should be done. It hendak sebutkan di-sini. is not only the High Commissioner for Australia but also other High Sir, the Honourable Member for Commissioners and Ambassadors will Tanjong also mentioned about the three have to return to Malaya from time Ministers without Portfolio in the to time for consultation. Government, in that it is unnecessary for the Government to have so many The Honourable Member for Tan- Ministers without Portfolio. Sir, I think jong referred to big American cars, the Honourable Member for Tanjong and obviously he must be referring to needs some lessons on Parliamentary the car to be purchased for the Prime government, on the cabinet system of Minister. The car to be purchased for government. Obviously, in a cabinet the Prime Minister is of the same type system of government, it is necessary as the present car that he now has, to have a number of Ministers some and it is necessary for the Prime holding portfolio, some holding more Minister, as Leader of the Government, than one portfolio, and others without to have a car compatible with his portfolio. Now, Sir, two of these dignity and his position, and the car Ministers are now holding appoint- that the Prime Minister is now having ments abroad, one as High Commis- is, to my view, very modest indeed for sioner in Australia and the other as a Prime Minister. Ambassador in Washington. They, therefore, are no extra charge to the I think, Sir, that is all the various Government because they are filling matters on Defence that Members of posts which are already in the the Opposition brought up and I shall, Estimates. Then, there is the other of course, be speaking further when I Minister without Portfolio, who is the introduce the various items on Defence Leader of our Senate, and this Minister in the committee stage. from time to time is given duties by the Prime Minister in addition to his The Minister of Internal Security duty as the Leader of the Government (Dato' Dr Ismail): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the Senate. the Member for Menglembu chose to bring the principles of the Internal Further., Sir, the Honourable Member Security Act, of which the Advisory for. Tanjong queried the return of our Board is a part, in the course of his High Commissioner from Australia. It intervention in the debate. Sir, I do not is our practice, and it is the practice propose to debate this subject with him, in countries, which have ambassadors but we all know the stand of the abroad or representatives abroad, for Government and the stand of his Party these representatives to return to the on this question of the Internal Security country from time to time for cori- Act. I think we must agree to disagree sultation. Our High Commissioner for on this subject. Australia returned for the purpose of consultation with us on a number of He next referred to the proceedings matters, and his return was with the of the Advisory Board as farcical, but approval of the Government; and, in the next breath he complained naturally, on his return here he of the inconvenience caused to the discussed with the Government a counsel who would like to appear number of matters including, of course, before the Advisory Board. Now, staffing and other things. It is the evidently not all members of the learned practice, and in some countries I know profession consider the proceedings of 499 29 MAY 1963 500

the Advisory Board as farcical, other- the charging of the 1/10 of 1 per cent wise they would not appear before the commission on investments which Board. Now, Sir, if there are inconve- previous to July, 1961, was charged niences caused to the members of the to the investment accounts, is now learned profession, if specific instances charged to this vote. Secondly, there are brought to the attention of the has been an increase of 50 per cent in Chairman of the Board, who himself the Crown Agents' Departmental is a former Judge and a member of the Charges since September, 1962. learned profession, I am sure he would not cause unnecessary inconvenience As for Sub-head 14-Expenses of Exchange, a token sum of $10 was to any learned member appearing before the Advisory Board. shown in the 1962 Estimates under this Sub-head as it was difficult to Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr forecast the net effect of the variations Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification in the rates of exchange arising from I am afraid the Honourable Minister transactions between the Federation has got me completely wrong. It is not and foreign countries from time to a question of inconvenience, it is a time. It has now been confirmed that question of prohibiting counsel to be for the year 1962, there was a net loss present when the Police give their of $162,648 on account of such evidence, prohibiting counsel and the transactions. detainee to be present. With regard to Sub-head 26 Re- Dato' Dr Ismail: Well, Sir, the payment of Previous Year's Revenue, procedure of the Advisory Board is an additional amount of $39,000 is determined by the Chairman of the required for making repayments of Advisory Board and it is far for me to sums received in past years which were dictate to the Chairman of the over-collected or collected in error, and Advisory Board how proceedings of which have now to be refunded to the the Advisory Board should be done, persons from whom they were collected. because he is a Judge he should know It is difficult to estimate in advance how to conduct the proceedings of an the amount of refunds to be made in Advisory Board. any particular year. For this reason, the provision made for this purpose in Now, Sir, allegations of a general 1962 has been found to be inadequate nature, couched in whatever language by the amount now required. in this House, do not amuse me at all. Lastly, an additional amount of Question put, and agreed to. 5700,000 is required to supplement Bill accordingly read a second time. Sub-head 31-Cost of Living Allow- House immediately resolved itself ances on Pensions. There was an into Committee of Supply. increase in the number of pensioners last year and as a result of this the (Mr Speaker in the Chair) voted provision in the 1962 Estimates was exceeded by the amount required. FIRST SCHEDULE Question put, and agreed to. Head S. 19 The sum of $1,412,649 for Head Enche' Tan Siew Sin : Mr Chairman, S. 19 ordered to stand part of the Sir, there are four Sub-heads under First Schedule. this Head, and I shall deal with them SECOND SCHEDULE one by one. Head S. 7 An additional sum of $511,000 is required for Sub-head 10 to meet Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair- Crown Agents' expenses, as the amount man, Sir, I beg to move that expendi- of $350,000 provided in the 1962 ture amounting to $124,610 under Estimates has proved insufficient. There Head S. 7 be approved. are two reasons for this. Firstly, it is Now. Sir, under Sub-head 27A, an due to a change in procedure whereby amount of $3,060 is requested as a 501 29 MAY 1963 502 contribution towards the Dag Ham- cost of the car has now increased by marskjoeld Memorial Scholarship Fund. 40 per cent, and that is why the The United Nations Correspondents' amount shown here is $42,800. Association, which is a well-known Sub-head 48 Contribution towards organisation and of high standing in erection of tomb for His late Majesty the United Nations, has established a the second Yang di-Pertuan Agong memorial scholarship fund called the The Selangor Government has Dag Hammarskjoeld Memorial Scho- constructed a memorial tomb for His larship Fund in memory of the late late Highness at a cost of $34,000 and Secretary-General of the United it is proposed that the Federation Nations. Government should contribute 50 per The object of the Fund is two-fold- cent towards the cost of this tomb to promote a wider knowledge of the and it is also proposed that a similar United Nations in the profession of contribution be made for the con- journalism and to knit closer ties with struction of a royal tomb at Sri countries whose independence and Menanti for His late Majesty the first advancement were the objects of Mr Yang di-Pertuan Agong. Dag Hammarskjoeld's labour in the Sub-head 49 Renovation and Fur- last years of his life. The Fund will nishing of Rumah Persekutuan, establish annual scholarships for one Penang At the last meeting of this or more young journalists, or students House, the House approved a provi- of journalism in countries in Asia, sion of $46,550 for the renovation Africa or Latin America. They will and furnishing of Rumah Persekutuan, report on United Nations operations but as there was no time to as part of their studies at the graduate carry out the renovation work on School of Journalism of Columbia this building before the end of University. The Fund is being financed the year, only $2,800 was spent out by contributions from individual cor- of the $46,550 approved. Now, the respondent of the United Nations amount required is therefore a realloca- Correspondents' Association, from tion of the sum already approved by members of the United Nations the House to be spent this year. Secretariat, from publishing houses all over the world, from philantropic Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair- organisations and also from Govern- man, Sir, I would like the Honourable ments. Therefore, it is considered the Deputy Prime Minister to enlighten appropriate for the Federation Govern- this House as to the necessity of an ment to contribute a small amount expenditure for Rumah Persekutuan, towards this Fund. Penang, amounting to $43,750. It is Now, Sir, I come to Sub-head 42 stated here that Rumah Persekutuan, Renovation and Refurnishing of Istana Penang, is for the use of Ministers and Tetamu. The House has already been Slate guests during their visits to the informed that the renovation and Island. As far as State guests are refurnishing of Istana Tetamu will be concerned, it will definitely be for carried out in stages. Therefore, it has official purposes; but as far as Ministers not been possible to estimate accurately are concerned, I do not see here the cost of this work and hence we whether the house is open to Ministers have to bring up, from time to time, during their official visits to Penang, or supplementary provisions to this House. even private visits to Penang -1 do not On this occasion an additional sum of see here whether the house can be $ 18,000 is requested. utilised by them. It will be seen, therefore, that if it is necessary to have Sub-head 43, Residency Motor-car- a house for such a purpose in Penang, As I have explained, the sum is why is it that such a house is not required for the purchase of a motor- provided in other capitals Ipoh, car for the Prime Minister, and it is Seremban and places like that? It is a of the same type as the car that he is fact that whenever Ministers go to on now having. Unfortunately, Sir, the public duty, in such places there are 503 29 MAY 1963 5 04

Rest Houses and they usually stay in Deputy Prime Minister are correct, the Rest Houses. In Penang the State then I have no hesitation in saying that Government also run some sort of a I am wrong. However, Sir, the state- Rest House, and I see no reason why ment of the Deputy Prime Minister Ministers cannot make use of such a demonstrates very clearly that he is the place in the course of their duty. If person who is very ignorant about Ministers want a better place for State Penang, because in Penang the State guests, I would like to say that it has Government runs a Rest House. But always been the practice in Penang it does not call it a Rest House but that State guests are accommodated in it calls it a Chalet. It is well known the Residency, I mean by the Governor that any Government officer can get of Penang; or sometimes they have accommodation there and, in fact, been put up at the Bel Retiro up in applications for accommodation can be Penang Hill. Therefore, it appears to made to the Public Works Department, me that there is very little justification I believe. So anyone who wants to stay for the provision of this place, and I there can always send in an applica- shall be very grateful if the Honourable tion to the State Public Works Deputy Prime Minister can enlighten Department to be accommodated there. this House as to why this is considered In view of this explanation, I hope the essential. Honourable Deputy Prime Minister will reconsider this matter. Tun Haji Abdul Razak : Mr Chair- man, Sir, I am indeed surprised at the Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I am considerable ignorance shown by the afraid this Chalet, or whatever it is, is Honourable Member for Tanjong of his not known to us here. Probably it is own place Penang. In the first place, a secret place known only to the there is no Rest House in Penang, and Honourable Member ! (Laughter). I think it is unfair for the Governor of Penang to put up all State guests in Enche' Tan Phock Kin: For the the Residency. I think it is not com- information of the Honourable Deputy patible with his dignity as Governor Prime Minister, the place is located in to have everybody staying in his house. Jesselton Road, and I think quite a lot of Government servants have been As Honourable Members know, staying there. It is run by the State Penang is one of the prettiest spots of Government from the State funds; and the country and State guests, coming if the Honourable Deputy Prime to the Federation, normally ask to visit Minister wants to stay there on his Penang. I think it is in the interests of next visit to Penang, I think he can the Socialist Front, who are looking contact the State Government in Penang after Penang Municipality, that they which can arrange for his accommoda- should have all these guests to visit tion. Penang. Naturally, all these guests cannot be accommodated in the Resi- Enche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Rahman : dency, as I said, and it is necessary Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-bagai wakil to have a house, a sort of Guest House, Seberang. Tengah yang saya tahu rumah in Penang where State guests as well yang di-katakan oleh Ahli Yang Ber- as Ministers and senior Government hormat itu bukan-lah Rest House, servants can stay. In other towns in tetapi is-lah rumah mess. (Ketawa). the Federation, there are Rest Houses Question put, and agreed to. where tha officers and Ministers can stay during their visits, but not in The sum of $124,610 for Head S. 7 Penang. I think, it is not convenient ordered to stand part of the Second sometimes for Ministers and senior Schedule. Government officers to stay in hotels Head S. 11 during the course of carrying out their official duties. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr Chair- man, Sir, I beg to move that expendi- Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair- ture amounting to $24,700 under Head man, Sir, if the reasons given by the 5. 11 be approved. 505 29 MAY 1963 506

A sum of $20,000 is required for tional solidarity towards tackling the the rental charges on the International problem of world hunger. By issuing Computing and Tabulating machines the special "Freedom from Hunger" which are considered necessary for the stamps in more than one hundred use in the Department of Statistics, and countries, a massive gesture of goodwill a sum of $4,700 is required for addi- towards the less-fortunate of the world tional expenditure by the Statistics has thus been demonstrated, and these Department in preparation for the stamps without any doubt have made future surveys to be undertaken by the an important psychological contribution Department. in the fight against world hunger. Question put, and agreed to. The "Freedom from Hunger Cam- The sum of $24,700 for Head S. 11 paign" is directed at the alleviation ordered to stand part of the Second and eventual elimination of hunger, Schedule. including malnutrition throughout the world. The world-wide problem of Head S. 13 hunger and malnutrition involves a 'I`he Assistant Minister of Informa- complexity of factors, but in the final tion and Broadcasting (Enche' Mohd. analysis they relate to the problem of Ismail bin Mohd. Yusof): Mr Chair- raising the level of agricultural pro- man, Sir, I beg to move that expendi- ductivity. ture under Head S. 13, Ministry of Question put, and agreed to. Agriculture and Co-operatives, totalling $52,500 stand part of the Schedule. The sum of $52,500 for Head S. 13 ordered to stand part of the Second Sir, the Food and Agricultural Schedule. Organisation of the United Nations, which launched the five-year "Free- Head S. 14 dom from Hunger Campaign in July, 1960, made a request to all member The Minister of Commerce and countries that are in the United Industry (Dr Lim Swee Aun): Mr Nations to participate in the Freedom Chairman, Sir, I beg to move that a from Hunger Stamp Plan. The F.A.O. sum of $255,854 for Head S. 14 stand also requested that a donation of part of the Schedule. 100,006 complete series of "Freedom Sir, the sum is required for a new from Hunger" stamps should be made Sub-head 29-Handing-over of Govern- to the F.A.O. for the international ment Rice Mills, Perak, to the Hunger Campaign on behalf of Federation Government. There are the country. In keeping with the three Government rice mills situated enhanced status of the Federation of at Telok Anson, Bagan Serai and Malaya in the eyes of the world, the Pant Buntar, and until the end of 1962 Federation Government decided to they were administered and controlled donate 50,000 stamps each of the by a Board of Directors on behalf of commemorative postage stamps of 25 the Government of Perak. The mills at cents, 30 cents and 50 cents, the total Bagan Serai and Pant Buntar were out face value of which amounted to of commission for many years whilst $52,500. that at Telok Anson continued to The "Freedom from Hunger" stamp operate. The Chief Valuation Officer issue was planned by the F.A.O. as of the Federal Treasury inspected the part of the observation of the "Freedom properties of the mills in August 1961 from Hunger Week" launched on 21st and valued them at $496,860. Legal March, 1963, in order to bring about authorities and the Auditor-General an immediate comprehension of the ruled that these mills and their pro- problem of world hunger, thereby perties belonged to the Federal creating a practicable possibility for Government since they were established all countries, including those with cash from Federated Malay States funds at resources, to participate quite exten- a time when the Perak State Govern- sively in a concrete gesture on interna- ment had no financial autonomy. After 507 29 MAY 1963 508 prolonged discussions between the up, but it is necessary for these plans Federal Government and the State to be carried out in phases and, in Government it was finally agreed that fact, what I am now asking this House the Perak Government alienate to the to approve is the provision for the Federal Government the land under the first phase of such expansion. control of the three mills; that the Perak Government arrange with the Board As stated in the Treasury Memo- of Directors of the Mills to hand over randum, the main projects involved in the administration and control of the the present build-up are as follows : mills to the Trade Division of the (i) the expansion of the Singapore Ministry of Commerce and Industry on Military Forces to form a Brigade the 1st of January, 1963; that the Perak for the Singapore area ; Government arrange with the Board of (ii) an increase in the number of Directors of the mills to transfer all ships for the Royal Malayan assets and liabilities as at 31st Decem- Navy; ber, 1962, to the Trade Division of (iii) an increase in the number and the Ministry of Commerce and types of planes for the Royal industry; that the Federal Government Malayan Air Force and the estab- arrange to pay the Government of the lishment of a training school State of Perak the sum of $255,854 for the Air Force; due by the mills to the State Govern- ment, since that amount was advanced (iv) the purchase of the necessary from State revenue; that the Trade equipment for all these projects. Iivision take over the staff employed Without going into any great detail, by the Board of Directors of these or taking up too much time of this three mills as at 31st December, 1962. House. I wish to give Honourable Sir, this sum of $255,854 is the result Members some indications of what of these negotiations to take over the these projects entail. For the Army, three mills. there will be an extra battalion in the Question put, and agreed to. Royal Malay Regiment (the Eighth Battalion), a Reconnaissance Squadron, The sum of $255,854 for Head S. 14 a Brigade Headquarters on the island ordered to stand part of the Schedule. of Singapore, the expansion of the Federation Military College for the Head S. 1 training of officers, and also the expan- Tun Haji Abdul Razak : Mr Chair- sion of the Recruiting Training Depot man, Sir, I beg to move that a sum to increase the output of men, and also amounting to $75,172,733 for Head the formation of certain new units and S..15 stand part of the Schedule. the expansion of existing ones to provide increased logistic support to Sir, as I explained when answering the expanded armed forces. Honour- the questions raised by Honourable able Members will also recall that I Members in the general debate on this mentioned in this House some time Supplementary Supply Bill, these sup- ago that our contingent in the Congo plementary provisions are required was being withdrawn. This withdrawal for the expansion of our armed torces has now been completed and, with the specifically on account of Malaysia. withdrawal, we have set up a Brigade The provision for which I am now Headquarters (now temporarily at seeking the approval of this House Bentong) for the purpose of providing does not cover the full expansion of a balanced command structure of the the armed forces but only a part of it Federation Army for the whole of the and I shall, therefore, have to come to Federation of Malaya. The :Brigade the House from time to time for Headquarters in Singapore will there- additional expenditure. I would also fore be the Fourth Brigade Head- like to explain to the House that plans quarters, to cover the Singapore area. for the expansion of the armed forces to cater for the defence requirements The Royal Malayan Navy will be of Malaysia have already been drawn expanded by the addition of a Frigate, 509 29 MAY 1963 510 a Coastal Minesweeper and four Fast it is necessary for us to have a Patrol Craft of the same design as balanced force of Army, Navy and those at present under construction in Air Force sufficient to support the the United Kingdom. The first of these internal security of our country and additional ships should arrive in also for the close defence of our Malaya during the latter part of this territory. year. It is also intended to establish a Sir, I beg to move. small maintenance and logistic base in North Borneo some time this year Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr to support our patrol craft operating Chairman, Sir, on the question of the in the Borneo waters after the forma- Fourth Federal infantry Brigade for tion of Malaysia. It is also intended the Singapore area, I fail to understand to establish a new Logistics and Base why it is necessary to form such a Technical and Repair Organisation at Brigade in the Federation and send it Woodlands in Singapore, alongside across the Causeway to Singapore. I the existing barracks of the Royal assume that is the intention. If I am Malayan Navy, later this year. A firm correct there, then surely it is an insult of consultants has already been to the people of Singapore. appointed to prepare detailed plans Tun Haji Abdul Razak : Mr Chair- for the development of the main man, Sir, on a point of information, I Dockyard Base of the Royal Malayan would like to explain that this Brigade Navy in Singapore, and construction will consist of two battalions of the work on a jetty there is expected to Singapore Regiment-one has already start early next year. been formed and the other is in the The Royal Malayan Air Force will course of being formed and it will be also shortly be supplied with four completed soon and it is necessary to Handley Page Dart Herald medium have an additional battalion from here, transport aircraft, eigth Alouette as a matter of urgency, in order to Helicopters, two De Havilland Heron complete the Brigade, which is neces- medium range Communication aircraft, sary for the support of internal security and six Hunting Provost training in Singapore. aircraft. It is also proposed to con- struct an additional hangar and an Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam : May I Equipment Depot at the Royal ask whether it is a new Brigade which Malayan Air Force Station, Kuala is going to be formed in the Federation Lumpur. It is necessary to have these and sent over to Singapore? medium range transport aircraft for Tun Haji Abdul Razak : No, it is the transport of members of our armed establishing a Brigade Headquarters forces in case of an emergency in any consisting of the existing Singapore part of Malaysia. A Technical Train- Regiment plus an additional battalion ing School will also be set up in the to make up into a Brigade. It is the British Army Barracks at Kinrara existing Brigade in Singapore that is which have now been taken over by being established there. the Federation Government. Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: I don't As I have said, this expansion is quite understand it (Laughter). But only the first phase. We have made no one assumes that when more money is provision for additional troops required asked for it means that it is going to for the Borneo territories. It is also be expanded, and the point that necessary that we shall have to obtain worries me is that, is it going to be external assistance for part of our expanded by the enlistment of Singa- expenditure for armed forces, because pore citizens or by the inclusion of unless it is done it will be a very heavy Federal citizens? I wonder whether commitment to our country. All this that could be answered? expansion of the armed forces is necessary, as I have said, in view of Tun Haji Abdul Razak : Well, Sir, Malaysia; and in view of the confron- I have explained that there is already tation attitude adopted by Indonesia, a brigade in Singapore, manned partly 511 29 MAY 1963 512 by the Singapore Regiment and partly sa-nya Kerajaan memberi pertim- by British troops. With the establish- bangan, atau keutamaan yang lebeh ment of Malaysia, naturally, the brigade besar kapada kesenangan pegawai2 will have to be manned by troops from dalam sa-sabuah kapal, katakan-lah Malaysia and that brigade will consist kapal2 untok mempertahankan negara of two battalions of the Singapore bagi tanah ayer kita ini yang di-leng- Regiment which consists of citizens kapkan dengan bilek2 sejok. Nampak- from Singapore. But, nevertheless, we nya dasar Kerajaan ini apabila hendak will have to have another battalion, membeli senjata2 tidak-lah di-pandang which we are forming now, as an di-atas f aedah2 yang lebeh besar yang additional battalion to complete this boleh di-chapai dengan wang2 yang brigade, because it is necessary to have di-belanjakan tadi untok membeli sa- the minimum of a brigade to support suatu senjata yang boleh mempertahan- the internal security of Singapore the kan negara, chuma yang Keraj aan moment Malaysia is established. pentingkan is-lah kesenangan bagi pegawai2 yang dudok di-dalam kapal Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Again itu. mi satu perkara yang saya ber- it is not clear whether this additional harap kapada Kerajaan supaya pada whatever it is called is going to consist masa akan datang wang2 itu akan di- of Federation citizens or not. gunakan untok membeli senjata2 yang Tun Haji Abdul Razak: The addi- betul2 dapat menjalankan tugas2-nya tional battalion, Sir, will be a battalion yang sangat penting itu. from the Federation Armed Forces. Yang kedua, Tuan Pengerusi, tentang Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Exactly soal kapal2 terbang. Sa-bagaimana yang that is the point I was coming to. I saya mendapat tahu bahawa sa-nya wonder why it is necessary to send sangat-lah sadikit bilangan pegawai2 members of the Federation Armed Melayu yang dapat bekerja sa-bagai Forces to form a battalion for pemandu2 kapal terbang, kerana sa- Singapore. Surely, there are enough bagaimana laporan2 yang telah saya citizens in Singapore who could be bacha, atau pun mendengar bahawa recruited to form a new battalion ! I sa-nya satu gulongan yang kechil sa- mention this because I feel that this kali di-berikan peluang2 tersebut is part of the general policy of the kapada pemandu2 prang Melayu, Alliance Government that in view of sedangkan kebanyakan pemandu2 kapal the fact that Singapore is coming in, terbang itu ada-lah terdiri daripada not of its own free will, but through bangsa2 orang yang bukan Melayu. political trickery and manoeuvres, I feel that the Alliance Government now Saya fikir, Tuan Pengerusi, yang feels that it must have some of its own sa-elok-nya bagi Kerajaan tatkala men- men from the Federation to keep the jalankan satu dasar untok memper- people of Singapore under control. tahankan tanah ayer kita ini, hendak- And feeling that that is the motive of lah peluang2 itu di-berikan kapada the Alliance Government, I think this orange yang Kerajaan telah yakin sa- expenditure should not be approved ratus peratus dapat menjalankan by this House. tugas2-nya, serta ta`at setia-nya kapada negeri ini yang tidak berbelah bagi. Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah Jangan-lah di-beri peluang itu kapada (Kota Bharu Hilir) : Tuan Pengerusi, orange yang Kerajaan sendiri tidak saya hendak berchakap sadikit di- yakin dan perchaya bahawa sa-nya bawah Head S. 15 No. (iv) The mereka itu akan menumpahkan ta`at purchase of equipment for the Army, setia-nya kapada tanah ayer kita ini ships and patrol craft for the Navy and sa-ratus peratus. planes and helicopters for the Air Force. Dahulu pernah saya bangkitkan Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad dalam Rumah ini tentang soal membeli (Bachok) : Tuan Pengerusi, tadi Yang kapal2 dan alat2 senjata dan lain2 lagi Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri untok pertahanan negara. Sa-bagai- sa-laku Menteri Pertahanan telah ber- mana yang kita telah ketahui bahawa chakap berkenaan dengan pertahanan 513 29 MAY 1963 514 negeri dengan perbelanjaan pertahanan- apabila di-bayangkan oleh Yang nya. Sa-belum perbelanjaan $75 juta Berhormat Timbalan Perdana Menteri ringgit lebeh ini di-luluskan oleh Dewan is-itu hanya soal negeri2 Borneo sahaja, ini, perlu-lah kita mengkaji terlebeh sebab di-dalam rundingan2 dengan dahulu bagaimana commitment Kera- negeri2 Brunei dan Singapura maseh j aan terhadap pertahanan negeri ini belum dapat di-tentukan, walau pun saperti yang telah di-sebutkan bahawa ada keinginan dan harapan2 saperti di-dalam kewajipan pertahanan, me- yang di-sebutkan oleh Yang Berhormat nurut di-dalam Perlembagaan is-lah Timbalan Perdana Menteri bahawa kapada Kerajaan Pusat dan boleh jadi sa-patut-nya Kerajaan Brunei dan di-dalam susunan yang di-buat oleh Inggeris itu memikul perbelanjaan mi. Jawatan-Kuasa Antara Kerajaan ber- mi akan berhadapan dengan keinginan kenaan dengan hal ini telah menyatakan Lee Kuan Yew yang sengaja hendak is-itu di-dalam negara Malaysia yang mengelakkan bebanan yang banyak di-anjorkan itu, Kerajaan Pusat-lah itu. Jadi, sa-belum melulus perbelanjaan yang akan memikul bebanan mi. Yang ini, patut-lah Kerajaan Persekutuan menjadi masaalah kapada saya is-lah, Tanah Melayu ini menegaskan bahawa Kerajaan Pusat yang akan memikul perbelanjaan yang sa-banyak 75 juta perbelanjaan ini is-lah Kerajaan Pusat ringgit lebeh itu ada-lah pendahuluan Malaysia, bukan Kerajaan Pusat Per- daripada Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah sekutuan Tanah Melayu, atau ada-kah Melayu kapada Kerajaan Pusat Malay- di-f ahamkan oleh Yang Berhormat sia, dan dengan yang demikian ada-lah Timbalan Perdana Menteri bahawa proportion yang akan di-tentukan ka- Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu pada perbelanjaan yang akan di-tang- ini-lah yang melagakkan diri-nya sa- gong oleh tiap2 unit yang akan masok bagai Kerajaan Pusat Malaysia, sedang- ka-dalam ranchangan Malaysia itu kan Kerajaan2 yang lain itu ada-lah ada-lah di-tentukan dengan perun- sa-bagai Kerajaan2 yang kechil yang dingan, atau perbahathan yang akan di-satukan dalam Malaysia kelak. Pada datang, dengan yang demikian baharu- pendapat saya lebeh molek, jika lah dapat di-terima oleh Kerajaan mi. Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu sekarang ini di-dalam hendak membe- Enche' Geh Chong Keat (Penang lanj akan persediaan2 berhubong dengan Utara): Mr Chairman, Sir, I would pertahanan, lebeh molek-lah di-chari like to say a few words in reply to the satu jalan yang perbelanjaan itu di- previous speaker from the PMIP I anggap sa-bagai pendahuluan kapada believe he is the Member for Kota perbelanjaan pertahanan bagi sa-buah Bharu Hilir. Sir, it is wrong for him Kerajaan Pusat yang akan di-ujudkan to assume that the security and defence pada masa akan datang yang akan di- of the country must lie in the hands of namakan Kerajaan Pusat Malaysia itu the Malays alone and he implied that sendiri. Sebab, Tuan Pengerusi, me- they are loyal and can be trusted. I mikul bebanan itu sendiri ada-lah satu would like to inform him that we, who tanggong-jawab yang akan di-pikul oleh are Malayans comprising of various Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu nationalities, are W arga Negara Per- yang akin menjadi sa-bahagian dari- sekutuan. (Applause). In time to come, pada Kerajaan Malaysia, dan juga kita to claim this heritage, we are prepared mengakul bahawa pertahanan tidak to offer our lives and the lives of our di-buat dalam satu malam, atau satu children to protect and defend this bulan, tetapi sa-balek-nya kalau sa- nation of ours, as we did during the buah Kerajaan yang besar yang hendak time when the Japanese invaded this di-buat, terpaksa-lah di-buat dari se- country. (Applause). I am sure that all karang dan terpaksa-lah Kerajaan itu Malayans, irrespective of whatever sendiri memikul-nya. Itu dapat kita nationality, will join me in telling the terima, tetapi menerima bebanan bagi Member for Kota Bharu Hilir that we pertahanan itu yang Kerajaan Pusat are as loyal as any other citizens of itu is-lah Kerajaan Pusat Persekutuan this country, and we will defend to the Tanah Melayu, rasa saya itu tidak last this heritage. Thank you. betul. Hal ini bertambah rumit (Applause). 515 29 MAY 1963 516

Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: Tuan Pengerusi, tidak-lah menjadi Saya chuma hendak menerangkan per- hairan kapada saya naik semangat kara ini timbul kerana ada di-dapati yang di-tunjokkan oleh Ahli Yang di-dalam pemilehan kapada pemandu2 Berhormat yang berchakap dahulu kapal terbang amat sadikit bilangan daripada saya mi. Orang yang shak orange Melayu itu di-terima dan di- kapada keta`atan-nya kapada sa-sabuah berikan oleh Kerajaan. negeri sahaj a yang sampai berbueh2 ayer lior-nya hendak menunjokkan Soal keta`atan itu timbul is-lah Ahli bahawa dia ta`at. Perkara keta`atan Yang Berhormat itu-lah yang menim- ini, Tuan Pengerusi, ada-lah satu per- bulkan, dan kalau sa-siapa mahu kara yang tidak mempunyal satu bertepok, kami sanggup menari itu sekatan yang dapat di-tunjokkan dari sahaja, Tuan Pengerusi, bila sahaja. luar, tetapi is berhajatkan kapada Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr perasaan yang mendalam yang ada Chairman, Sir, a very substantial sum pada jiwa raga orange yang mengaku of money is provided for defence, and diri-nya ta`at kapada negeri ini. Saya I have no doubt that in accordance terkejut apabila saya tengok merah with the declared policy of the muka Ahli Yang Berhormat itu sa- Alliance Government, the money would olah2 perkara ini ada-lah satu perkara be used to have in this country a yang di-kehendaki-nya benar supaya powerful defence unit consisting of all di-perbahathkan dalam Dewan mi. the loyal elements of this country Ahli Yang Berhormat dart Kota Bharu loyal elements from the Chinese, Hilir tadi telah menyebutkan kehendak Indians, and from the Malays. I say dan hajat-nya supaya di-dalam masa- that the Malays are loyal to this alah pertahanan negeri ini hendak-lah country, the Indian citizens are loyal di-perhatikan. Soal keta`atan yang tidak and the Chinese citizens are loyal, but berbelah bahagi bagi negeri ini tentu- there are members of a certain political lah orang Melayu lebeh ta`at kapada party who must always be watched : negeri ini daripada sa-siapa pun ta' I refer to the PMIP whose ultimate usah-lah sa-siapa hendak bertempek objective is to make Malaya part of dalam Dewan ini dan hendak menun- Indonesia so that they as agents of jokkan merah muka dengan tidak Soekarno will rule this country. berfasal ! (Applause). Perkara yang saperti ini perlu di- chadangkan kapada Yang Berhormat Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah: Menteri Pertahanan supaya berhati2 Rises. dan chermat dalam perkara ini dapat Mr Chairman: Saya telah terangkan di-lakukan. Dan sa-bagai satu rungutan tadi is-itu masaalah ta`at setia atas dari beberapa pehak bahawa di-dalam sa-siapa juga ra`ayat dalam negeri ini soal pemandu2 kapal terbang di-dapati tidak-lah menjadi satu masaalah; dalam orange Melayu tidak banyak yang perbahathan peruntokan yang ada di- mendapat jawatan itu. hadapan Majlis ini. Itu yang saya Tuan Pengerusi, kalau Ahli Yang hendak ingatkan jaga sadikit not a Berhormat itu hendak membahathkan point at issue. Kalau hendak berchakap soal ta`at setia itu, pehak PAS ini pendek, saya benar. tidak datang ka-sini dengan perasaan takutkan dia, PAS bersedia bukan Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Abdullah: sahaja membahathkan, tetapi meng- Tuan Pengerusi, masaalah yang saya hadap sa-barang musoh yang chuba timbulkan tadi is-lah kerana ada per- hendak menunjokkan kegagahan-nya khabaran yang mengatakan chuma satu di-dalam Dewan ini dan di-luar Dewan bilangan yang kechil sahaja yang di- ini (Tepok). Shor . . . . beri peluang kapada orange Melayu untok menj adi pemandu2 kapal terbang. Mr Chairman : Order. Saya minta-lah Ini-lah masaalah yang saya bangkit- masaalah keta`atan ini tidak menjadi kan tadi. Saya harapkan kapada Kera- satu soal dalam perbahathan mi. jaan supaya di-banyakkan bilangan 517 29 MAY 1963 518 orang Melayu, kerana ta`at setia kechil, tetapi tidak-lah bagitu kechil di- mereka kapada negeri ini tidak ada bandingkan dengan bangsa2 asing. shak lagi. Kerajaan ada-lah berharap bilangan orange Melayu dalam hat tentera udara Ada pun perkara yang di-timbulkan dapat di-tambah dari satu masa ka- oleh wakil dari Menglembu mengata- satu masa, dan berharap benar kapada kan PMIP chuba hendak menjadi pemuda2 Melayu yang mempunyai wakil negara Indonesia atau pun sa- kelulusan dan kelayakan2 yang di- bagai gulongan sayap yang kelima. kehendaki menjadi pemandu2 kapal mi satu tudohan yang tidak payah saya terbang dan sa-bagai-nya akan meminta jawab di-sini. Perkara yang saya suka masok berkhidmat dalam tentera mi. hendak mengingatkan kapada wakil yang tersebut is-itu jangan pula dia Berkenaan dengan Ahli Yang Ber- menjadi sayap yang kelima untok hormat dari Kota Bharu Hilir ada negara China atau Kominis China. menyebutkan hal bilek sejok. Saya fikir Kami sa-bagaimana yang di-terangkan dia telah kerap kali menyebutkan oleh wakil dari Bachok datang di-sini tentang bilek sejok ku, ta' tahu-lah apa is-lah untok membahathkan apa juga fasal dia gadoh sangat bilek sejok ini perkara dan memberi apa juga ada di-dalam kapal2 laut tentera kita. pandangan atau mengkeritik yang. Soal bilek sejok ini, bukan lagi menjadi membena (constructive criticism). Dan luxury kata orang, tetapi necessity ada pun perkara perkauman tidak dalam keadaan negara kita pada masa berbangkit sama sa-kali, tetapi PPP ini, sebab di-fikirkan hawa di-sini bukan yang selalu membangkitkan perkara sahaja untok kesenangan, bahkan perkauman, kerana itu telah menjadi kebaikan bagi pegawai2 bagi menjalan- satu polisi mereka itu supaya dapat kan pekerjaan2, patut-lah di-adakan "memanching dalam ayer yang keroh". bilek sej ok dalam pej abate dan juga termasok-lah dalam kapal2 perang. Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Tuan Penge- Jadi, ini menurut kemajuan yang kita rusi, saya sangat dukachita oleh sebab sedang chapai pada hari mi. perbahathan dalam pertahanan ini telah berbangkit soal ta`at setia dan soal Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Bachok puak2 atau communalism. Saya suka ada menyoal berkenaan dengan per- terangkan bagi pehak Kerajaan ini belanjaan pertahanan ini, dan kata-nya berkenaan dengan mengambil ahli2 patut-lah di-bagi advance dahulu, masok tentera2, baik tentera2 laut, darat kerana Kerajaan Malaysia belum di- dan udara j awatan2 itu ada-lah terbuka tubohkan lagi. Saya fikir Ahli Yang kapada semua ra`ayat Persekutuan Berhormat dari Bachok ada silap faham Tanah Melayu. Dan kita mesti-lah di-atas kedudokan Kerajaan Pusat. sifatkan ra`ayat Persekutuan Tanah Apabila tertuboh Malaysia, Kerajaan Melayu itu daripada semua bangsa Persekutuan yang ada sekarang ini akan ta`at kapada negeri ini, melainkan kita menjadi Kerajaan Malaysia, dan kita ada dalil yang tertentu yang menunjok- harap Dewan Ra`ayat yang ada kan sa-saorang itu tidak ta`at setia sekarang ini akan menjadi Dewan kapada negeri ini. Dasar ini mesti kita Ra`ayat bagi seluroh Malaysia, akan ikut, is-itu dasar yang `adil, benar dan tetapi wakil2 daripada negara2 itu akan berpatutan. Dalam hal mengambil ahli2 dudok juga di-Dewan ini bersama2 dan pegawai2 tentera pehak Kerajaan dengan kita is-itu dalam Dewan ada menentukan bilangan2 satu2 bangsa Ra`ayat dan Dewan Negara, dan itu, dan pertama sa-kali bagi orange Kerajaan Perikatan berharap wakil2 Melayu ada-lah di-beri keutamaan daripada negeri2 itu akan dapat juga dalam hal masok tentera ini. Akan dudok dalam Jema`ah Menteri, dan juga tetapi dalam tentera udara sangat-lah dapat bekerjasama dengan kita bagi kurang bilangan orange Melayu yang menjalankan pentadbiran untok Malay- minta masok menjadi pegawai2, pilot2, sia. Jadi dengan sebab itu, maka dan kebanyakan daripada mereka itu mustahak-lah Kerajaan Pusat ini me- tidak mempunyai kelayakan yang di- nanggong perbelanj aan2 bagi perkara2 kehendaki. Jadi dengan sebab itu-lah yang telah di-tentukan menj adi tang- pada rasa ini bilangan-nya ada-lah gongan Kerajaan Pusat, dan apabila 519 29 MAY 1963 520

tertuboh-nya Malaysia , ada-lah di- The sum of $75,172,733 for Head tentukan hasil yang akan menjadi 5. 15 ordered to stand part of the kapada negeri yang masok Malaysia Second Schedule. itu is-itu hasil bagi Persekutuan hak Persekutuan, dan hasil bagi negeri hak House resumes. negeri. Jadi, daripada hasil hak Per- sekutuan itu, Kerajaan Pusat akan Mr Speaker: I propose to suspend menggunakan wang itu untok mem- the sitting for fifteen minutes. belanjakan perkara2 yang menjadi Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. tanggong -jawab Kerajaan Pusat ter- masok-lah pertahanan. Jadi, dalam hal Sitting resumed at 12.32 p.m. ini, kita kena-lah mengadakan perse- diaan pada masa sekarang ini, kerana (Mr Speaker in the Chair) pada 31 haribulan Ogos kelak, kita akan bertanggong -jawab dalam hal THE SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY pertahanan, dan mustahak-lah kita (1962 AND 1963) (No. 2) Bill mempunyai tentera2 bagi kita hendak menanggong kewajipan yang telah di- House immediately resolved itself tentukan kapada kita. into Committee of Supply. Mr Chairman , Sir, I find it very difficult to convince the Honourable (Mr Speaker in the Chair) Member for Menglembu. I think he has Head S. 17 got a somewhat distorted mind and so it is difficult for anyone to convince Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Moha- him. I have explained very clearly that med Yusof: Mr Chairman, Sir, I beg to there is already a Brigade in Singapore move that Head 17, Ministry of consisting of the Singapore Regiment External Affairs, Sub-heads 2 to 42, as and the British Regiment. It is necessary shown in Command Paper No. 14 of for us to have a Brigade on the 31st 1963, stand part of the Schedule. As of August, 1963, and , therefore, as we set out in Treasury Memorandum on have only two battalions of Singapore the Second Supplementary Supply Regiments , this Brigade will have to Estimates of Expenditure, Command be supplemented by a battalion of the Paper No. 15 of 1963, explanation is Federation Regiment . Once Malaysia given in respect of groups of expendi- is established , we shall have armed tures. It is convenient for me to deal forces for the whole Malaysia, and the with them in the order as set out, and citizens of Malaysia will have a right I shall elaborate on the explanation to serve in all our armed forces . I think already given in the Treasury Memo- the position is quite clear . There is no randum as may be considered necessary. question of our Government forcing Item 13 of Treasury Memorandum, Malaysia on the people of Singapore Command Paper No. 15 of 1963. that has been made clear ; the Singapore Included in this item are proposed Government held a referendum and it is expenditures under Sub-heads 2, 8, 9, clear that the majority of the people of 10 (2), IOA, IOB, 28 and 31, amounting Singapore have voted for Malaysia, and to $79,488. As stated in the Treasury this question does not arise anymore. Memorandum, the additional provision But what we want to do is to provide is required for the establishment of an adequate defence for Singapore , parti- expanded Research Branch in the cularly in support of internal security Ministry. Although research has been in Singapore on the day when Malaysia undertaken within the Ministry of is established the 31st of August. That External Affairs, recent developments is all that is envisaged . To me it is all in international affairs affecting the quite clear. Of course, if one refuses to Federation of Malaya have necessitated understand, it is very difficult for the need to intensify this aspect of the anyone to make him understand. Ministry's activity. For this reason a (Applause). greatly expanded Research Branch is Question put, and agreed to. being established. 521 29 MAY 1963 522

Under Sub-head 2 Administration $6,060 and authority for its expenditure a provision of $6,000 is sought to meet is sought under Sub-head 28 for the cost of newspapers, telegrams, tele- $6,060. phones, uniforms and incidental expen- Item 15: Detailed explanation has ses for this Branch. In addition to this, it is also necessary to provide for already been given in the Treasury purchase and printing of stationery at Memorandum for the provision sought $3,000 under Sub-head 9. of $3,000 under Sub-head 31A. I need only add that the Federation of Malaya In order to provide for its effective as a member of the United Nations operation, it is envisaged that officers is bound to participate in the scientific from the expanded Research Branch projects under the auspices of the will have to be sent on training overseas. United Nations. This project is being Thus under Sub-head 10A a provision organised by the International Council of $25,000 is sought. Also in this con- of Scientific Unions with the support nection, outfit allowance of $5,000 under of the International Advisory Council Sub-head 8 will have to be provided for on Marine Sciences of the United payment under existing regulations to Nations Educational Scientific and these officers when they are sent on Cultural Organisation. training. Enche' V. Veerappen : Mr Chairman, It is also necessary to provide for on a point of order Standing Order a motor car for this Research Branch 13 (1). I am afraid we do not have a and a provision of $4,700 is sought under Sub-head 31. A provision of quorum. $20,000 for Transport and Travelling (Division bell rung. 26 Members is also sought under Sub-head 10 to present : Proceedings continue.) meet the cost of transport and travelling of officers. Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Moha- Expansion of the Branch will neces- med Yusof: Item 16: The token provi- sitate the purchase of new office sion sought of $10 under Sub-head furniture and equipment estimated to 31B is to meet the cost of the replace- amount to $15,088 as is requested under ment of soft furnishings for the Sub-head 28. Honourable Members residence of the Permanent Secretary will note from Command Paper No. 14 for External Affairs. The original items of 1963 that against Sub-head 28 a of furnishings, which were purchased total provision of $21,148 is sought. in early 1958, are already completely I should point out that this amount worn out and their replacement is includes the $15,088 that I have referred necessary. The items comprise cushion to for office furniture and equipment covers, curtains and drapes for the for the Research Branch as well as a house. As it is possible to find savings sum of $6,060 which is the cost of the to meet the expenditure of $2,700 only installation of a PABX switch board a token sum of $10 is sought under in the Embassy in Djakarta. I shall this Sub-head. explain this later when I come to Item 17: The expenditure under item 14 of the Treasury Memorandum. Sub-head 33A is sought to cover the Item 14 of the Treasury Memoran- cost of the Federation of Malaya's dum The Embassy in Djakarta has participation in the ASA Foreign been operating without a PABX switch Ministers' Conference held in Manila board. As Honourable Members are from 2nd to 4th April, 1963. The no doubt aware of the facilities pro- expenditure includes the cost of air vided by and advantages derived from fares for the delegation led by the the use of the PABX system, I do not Honourable the Prime Minister in his wish to take Honourable Members' capacity as Minister of External time to elaborate on the technical Affairs, hotel accommodation, subsis- aspects of the machine. As stated in tence allowance, in accordance with the Treasury Memorandum the cost of the approved rates as well as entertain- the installation of this machine is ment. The composition of the Federa- 523 29 MAY 1963 524

tion delegation, as Honourable Members (ii) Deputy Secretary, Eco- may already be aware, was as follows : nomic Planning Unit, The Honourable the Prime Minister, (iii) Under-Secretary, Economic The Honourable the Minister of Agricul- ture, Planning Unit, The Permanent Secretary, Ministry of and (iv) Private Secretary to the External Affairs, Deputy Prime Minister. The Ambassador in Manila, The Secretary for Commerce and Industry, Sir, I beg to move. The Director of Information, Question put, and agreed to. The Principal Assistant Secretary, Trea- sury, The sum of $184,198 for Head S. 17 The Secretary of the National Secretariat ordered to stand part of the Second of ASA, Schedule. The Under-Secretary, Economic Planning Unit, Prime Minister's Department, and Head S. 20 The Second Secretary, Federation of Malaya Embassy, Manila. Dr Lim Swee Aun: Mr Chairman, Next I come to Item 18 of the Sir, a sum of $6,350 is required to meet Treasury Memorandum. A provision expenses incurred in connection with consisting of $8,230 under Sub-head a visit made by a United Kingdom 39, $5,390 under Sub-head 41A and Treasury official to Malaya at the $8,820 under Sub-head 41B, totalling invitation of the Federation Govern- $22,440 is required in connection with ment. This visit was for the purpose of the moving of the Permanent Mission having informal discussions with our own officials on the financial implica- of the Federation of Malaya to the United Nations in New York to a new tions of Malaysia. and more spacious office. Honourable Enche' Zulkiflee bin Muhammad: Members who had attended the United Tuan Pengerusi, saya hairan kenapa Nations General Assembly, or had perbelanjaan ini mesti di-bayar oleh visited the Office of the Permanent Kerajaan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu? Mission in New York, will be much Ini ada-lah perbelanjaan United King- aware of the need for more spacious dom Treasury Official patut-nya di- office accommodation. The old office bayar oleh United Kingdom walau pun was rather congested, and more office kita jemput dia. Dia sa-buah Kerajaan space is needed particularly when the yang besar tentu dia boleh bayar. Kita establishment of the Mission has been pun sa-lama hari ini pergi ka-negeri expanded. orang, orang tidak bayar belanja kita. Finally, I come to Item 19 of the Jadi saya suka hendak mendengar ke- Treasury Memorandum. On a long- terangan daripada Pemangku Menteri standing invitation of the Government Kewangan. of the United States of America, the Dr Lim Swee Aun: The U.K. Trea- Deputy Prime Minister could finally sury official came at our invitation and, proceed on a visit to that country during therefore, as host we should pay this. the first half of this month. As he was already going to the American Conti- Question put, and agreed to. nents, opportunity was also taken to The sum of $6,350 for Head S. 20 accept the kind invitation of the United ordered to stand part of the Second States Government to visit their Schedule. country. The provision of $47,700 is therefore sought to cover expenses Head S. 21 incurred on this visit for the Honour- Dr Lim Swee Aun: Mr Chairman, able Deputy Prime Minister and his Sir, an additional sum of $500,000 is Party. For the information of Honour- required to supplement the present able Members, the following comprised appropriation of $1,000,000 standing the Honourable Deputy Prime Minis- to the credit of the Miscellaneous ter's party : Advance Account of the Statutory (i) The Honourable the Deputy Funds. Any expenditure made from this Prime Minister, Head will be recoverable as it is only 525 29 MAY 1963 526 an advance. Past experience has shown for this purpose and be broadcast that the present amount is no longer directionally through not one but adequate to meet advances from this several transmitters of sufficient power. Trust Fund. At the moment we have a limited Question put, and agreed to. Overseas Service which broadcasts in The sum of $500,000 for Head S. 21 the following languages : ordered to stand part of the Second Indonesian Schedule. English Heads S. 27 and S. 66 Chinese. Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Moha- I am happy to say that reports received med Yusof: Mr Chairman, Sir, I seek from listeners in this region of the your permission to move both Head world and as far as New Zealand and S. 27 Broadcasting and Head S. 66 Australia have proved to be very Department of Television together, as encouraging. they come under the same Ministry of It will be noticed that under Personal Information and Broadcasting. Emoluments which amounts to $323,431, only those posts considered Head S. 27-Broadcasting- as essential are asked for (and these In moving Head S. 27-Broad- are trained and experienced staff) in casting-seeking funds for the Overseas order to ensure that the Service would Broadcasting Service, I should mention operate satisfactorily. Similarly, with that plans for such a service were con- O.C.A.R. amounting to $233,000 and sidered immediately after Merdeka, but O.C.S.E. which amounts to $665,005. not until early this year was it consi- Head S. 66 Department of Televi- dered necessary to establish such a sion Service. As Honourable Members will re- All nations recognise the need for collect, at the last Budget Meeting, I an effective Overseas Broadcasting mentioned the decision of Government Service for publicity as well as for the to create a new Department the purpose of explaining the role and Department of Television but I did stand-point of each of the country in not then ask for the required provisions the present highly competitive world of as preliminary discussions were going international politics. The present on between the Ministry, the Treasury Radio Malaya Service is inadequate to and the Federation Establishment handle the overseas broadcasting. Office. Hence the necessity for the creation of A sum of $953,560 is now required another branch of the Service for this. for the following : purpose. The Voice of Malaya was inaugurated by Government in Feb- P.E...... $450,000 ruary this year on a crash-programme O.C.A.R...... 346,740 basis but this is unsatisfactory. There- O.C. S.E...... 156,820 fore, an Overseas Broadcasting Service in order to set up the new Department. using multiple transmitters is essential This is for the 1st Phase of the opera- if we are to effectively put across tion and it is hoped that the transmis- Malaya's views and opinions in regard sion would begin by the end of this to keeping the world in touch with year. events in Malaya, to express Malaya's stand on Asian and international affairs Honourable Members would have and Malaya's participation in the inter- noted that the provision provided for national field. The secondary object is most of the posts are not for the full to educate and better inform listeners in year but phased very gradually as and other countries as to our way of life and when necessary. The sum of $953,560 is purpose, economic background, arts therefore the minimum required. and culture, general progress, develop- Sir, I beg to move that Head S. 27 ment and achievement. Special pro- and Head S. 66 totalling $2,174,996 be grammes, therefore, must be tailored approved. 527 29 MAY 1963 528

Enche' Aziz bin Ishak (Muar Dalam): banyak; jadi soal mengadakan gam- Tuan Pengerusi, saya suka hendak bar2 cowboy dan sa-bagai-nya sa- berchakap berkenaan dengan ran- umpama di-Singapura bukan sahaja changan television yang di-jalankan di-jalankan di-Singapura bahkan boleh oleh Kerajaan kita. Oleh sebab di-katakan di-mana2 tempat pun yang ranchangan mengadakan siaran televi- ada television kebanyakan-nya me- sion ini akan dapat menambahkan hasil nunjokkan gambar2. Kalau hendak di- negara dan memberikan hiboran sa- tunjokkan life broadcast atau pun chara modan di-dalam negeri kita ini menggambarkan terus dari stage setanding dengan negara2 yang ber- kapada studio akan memakan belanja kemajuan maka di-dalam sa-buah ne- yang banyak; sunggoh pun bagitu sa- gara yang muda ini, Tuan Pengerusi, memang-lah soal ranchangan television pada pendapat saya sangat-lah patut ini ada-lah di-dalam perhatian Ke- pehak yang mengelokkan ranchangan menterian saya. siaran ini mengatorkan ranchangan2 Question put, and agreed to. yang sa-suai dengan negara kita yang The sums of $1,221,436 for Head muda mi. Kerana, Tuan Pengerusi, apa S. 27 and $953,560 for Head S. 66 yang telah kita lihat ranchangan hari2 ordered to stand part of the Second yang di-buat oleh pehak Singapura di- Schedule. dalam television-nya yang pada pen- dapat saya tidak-lah memberi kesan Heads S. 29, S. 33 and S. 36 yang baik kapada seluroh ra`ayat ke- The Assistant Minister of the Interior rana banyak sangat menunjokkan gam- (Enche' Cheah Theam Swee): Mr bar2 cowboy dan tidak sadikit pun Chairman, Sir, can I have your per- mengandongi pelajaran yang membena. mission to take Heads S. 29, S. 33 and Oleh yang demikian saya berharap S. 36 at one rising as they all come ranchangan siaran harian di-dalam under one Ministry? negeri kita ini nanti hendak-lah mem- punyai taraf yang tinggi mutu-nya Mr Chairman: Yes. dengan memperbanyakkan hiboran2 Enche' Cheah Theam Swee: Sir, I yang mengandongi pelajaran yang beg to move that the sums of $1,565,881 membawa kebaikan kapada seluroh for Head S. 29, $3,788 for Head S. 33 ra`ayat negeri kita mi. Kerana apa yang and $102,050 for Head S. 36 be kita ketahui kebanyakan yang suka approved. menuntun television itu is-lah kanak2 Sir, the explanation in each case, and yang sedang menuntut. Dan juga kita the Sub-heads thereto, is set out clearly ketahui bahawa ibu-bapa mereka tidak in the Treasury Memorandum tabled berapa suka hendak memileki peti as Command Paper No. 15 of 1963, television ini kerana mereka itu takut with which I presume Honourable kalau2 anak mereka tidak dapat meng- Members are familiar. Therefore, I do ulangi pelajaran-nya di-waktu malam. not wish to burden this House with a Itu harus dapat di-timbangkan oleh speech that might be repetitious. If pehak pengelola television ini supaya Honourable Members wish to seek dapat mengatorkan ranchangan2 yang clarification if at all there is any -I sa-suai dengan keadaan bagaimana shall be happy to enlighten the House. yang saya katakan tadi. I, therefore, would like to adopt the explanation in the Treasury Me- Enche' Mohamed Ismail bin Moha- morandum in seeking the approval. med Yusof: Tuan Pengerusi, itu sa- memang-lah di-dalam perhatian Ja- Sir, I beg to move. batan Television dan juga Kementerian Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam: Mr saya berkenaan dengan ranchangan2 Chairman, Sir, I would like to avail yang akan di-adakan mengenai televi- myself of the offer made by the sion itu. Saya suka mengingatkan ka- Honourable Assistant Minister to pada Ahli Yang Berhormat dari Muar clarify, and I would seek a clarification Dalam dan kapada Dewan ini bahawa in regard to Head S. 29, item 24, menjalankan ranchangan television itu Expenses of Advisory Board. Now, this chukup-lah memakan belanja yang money is obviously provided to ensure 529 29 MAY 1963 5 30

that the Chairman of the Advisory Sitting resumed at 4.30 p.m. Board should travel from place to place to discharge his duties efficiently. (Mr Speaker in the Chair) This morning the Honourable the House immediately resolved itself Minister o Internal Security cut a very, into Committee of Supply. very sorry figure indeed when he was fumbling for a reply to me. It was (Mr Speaker in the Chair) quite obvious that he did not know the subject and that he was just trying THE SUPPLEMENTARY SUPPLY to say something, because he was (1962 AND 1963) (No. 2) BILL obliged to say. My complaint this morning was that the proceedings of Debate in Committee of Supply this Board were such that it did not do resumed. substantial justice in the sense that the detained person was not allowed to be SECOND SCHEDULE present when his accusers were brought Heads S. 29, S. 33 and S. 36 before the tribunal and neither was his counsel allowed to be present when his Enche' Cheah Theam Swee: Mr accusers were brought before the Chairman, Sir, under these three Commission of Enquiry. I suggested Heads under the Ministry of the that that was a denial of natural justice. Interior only the Honourable Member What happens is that the detained per- for Menglembu took the liberty to son and his lawyer are asked to stay speak under Head 29, Sub-head 6A away from the building; after the and, even though he referred to this presiding officer records all the evi- subhead, he did not actually make any dence, then . . specific reference to the expenditure Enche' Cheah Theam Swee: Mr asked for therein. Such being the case, Chairman, Sir, I think the Honourable I must take it that he agrees with that Member is debating on the general provision. But, however, he took the principles rather than on the specific liberty of taking another bite at the provision. cherry with regard to what he raised this morning, that is, in respect of the Mr Chairman: Since there is a proceedings under the Advisory Board provision for that, he can speak on on detained persons under the Internal that. Security Act. Mr Chairman, Sir, by Enche' S. P. Seenivasagam : Both the the way he presented his arguments lawyer and the detainee are not and his allegations to this House, one allowed to be present. I suggested that would have thought that the Advisory that was a denial of natural justice. Board was functioning in such a way This matter had been raised in this as if counsels were being locked in a House before. At that time I think the room, detainees were being questioned Honourable Assistant Minister of in another room and the whole thing Rural Development, who was acting was in a mess. Sir, that is far from temporarily for the Honourable Tun being the truth. Representations under Leong Yew Koh, promised that this the proceedings of the Internal Security matter would be looked into; and Act are governed by the Internal Secu- obviously he, not being interested in rity (Detained Persons) Advisory Board this Ministry, did not bother about it Rules, 1960, and there the provisions after the House adjourned. I suggest are set out in very clear and concise that this matter be now looked into terms as to how the proceedings should seriously, because it is fantastic that be carried out and how representations though a man is supposed to have a can be made to the Advisory Board fair trial he is not allowed to be pre- and we find in the provisions that there sent when his accusers are there. is no question of any discrimination Mr Chairman: It is one o'clock now. with regard to the debarring of coun- The sitting is suspended till 4.30 this sels representing detained persons. The afternoon. provisions even go so far that where a Sitting suspended at 1.00 p.m. detained person does not desire to 531 29 MAY 1963 532 appear in person, he can even authorise based at Grik. It will also ensure the his counsel to appear on his behalf. Sir, safety of the boats which are now I must say that if this is not a provision Government property. In the past whereby the system of natural justice most of the boats were hired from is allowed, then I do not know where contractors. the Honourable Member for Meng- lembu got his information from. I Head 40, Sub -head 23A Rental of would, for the sake of completeness, Flats and Quarters for Federal just repeat what the Honourable Reserve Units in Singapore: Minister of Internal Security and It has been agreed that from the date Interior said this morning : that we do upon which Malaysia is established the not accept and we do not believe in Central Government will be responsi- general and wild accusations. But if the ble for internal security . Insofar as it Honourable Member for Menglembu is covers Singapore, five Federal Reserve not able to point out a specific case Units will be required to augment the which I say he cannot then we must Singapore Police for public order submit that his allegations are false. duty in Singapore. Question put, and agreed to. To meet this requirement the neces- The sums of $1,565,881 for Head S. sary strength has been raised and two 29; $3,788 for Head S. 33; and Units of such personnel have already $102,050 for Head S. 36 ordered to been sent to Singapore in order to stand part of the Schedule. familiarise themselves with Singapore and to train with their colleagues in Heads S. 39 and S. 40 the Singapore Police. Dato' Dr Ismail: Mr Chairman, Sir, It is the intention to establish per- with your permission I would like to manent bases for these men, but for take Heads S. 39 and S. 40 together. the time being provisional accommoda- Sir, I beg to move that a sum of tion has been provided by the renting $7,000 for Head S. 39 and a sum of of 720 units of Singapore Housing $620,000 for Head S. 40 stand part Development Board flats for members of the Schedule. of the rank and file and for the use as offices and 26 quarters for the officers. Head 39, Sub-head 33 Roads and Sub-head 36 Office Furniture and Airfields: Equipment for Federal Reserve Units Supplementary provision approved in in Singapore: October 1962, included a sum of The provisional accommodation $5,000 for the construction of a low- rented for the Federal Reserve Units water jetty at Kuala Rui, Upper Perak, is unfurnished accommodation and the for use by boats in the Border Security Government has therefore had to pro- Area . When detailed plans and speci- vide furniture for the bachelor members fications of the projects were drawn up of the rank and file, the officers, and is was estimated by the State Engineer, also office furniture and equipment. Perak, that the project would cost $7,000. However , in view of inclement A supplement of $620 ,000 is required weather and the possibility of floods, under this Head. it was not possible to commence work Question put, and agreed to. and the project had to be deferred. By then it was too late to include the The sum of $7,000 for Head S. 39 requirement in the 1963 Estimates. and $620,000 for Head S. 40 ordered to A supplement of $7,000 is now stand part of the Schedule. required. Construction of a low-water jetty at Head S. 50 Kuala Rui is essential and will result The Assistant Minister of Commerce in considerable economy being effected and Industry (Tuan Haji Abdul Khalid): in the operation of the Boat Pool Tuan Pengerusi, saya menchadangkan 533 29 MAY 1963 5 34 supaya wang sa-banyak $56,875 di- Clauses 1 to 3 ordered to stand part bawah Head S. 50 Commissioner of of the Bill. Lands di-jadikan sa-bahagian daripada Bill reported without amendment : Jadual. read the third time and passed. Ranchangan Penyelesaian Tanah Perlis ini ada-lah di-kehendaki di- THE PORT AUTHORITIES BILL jalankan berasingan daripada Pejabat Second Reading Tanah Perlis dengan tujuan hendak The Minister of Transport (Dato' Haji membolehkan ranchangan itu menyem- Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Mr Speaker, purnakan tujuan dan dasar asal-nya Sir, I beg to move that a Bill intituled dengan sa-berapa chepat dan chekap "an Act to provide for the establish- yang boleh. Tujuan mengadakan ran- ment of port authorities, for the changan ini sa-bagaimana Ahli2 Yang functions of such authorities and for Berhormat hares ma`alum is-lah bukan sahaj a hendak memperbaiki susunan matters connected therewith" be read pentadbiran negeri Perlis, tetapi juga a second time. is-lah kerana hendak menjalankan Sir, the Bill seeks to provide in the pentadbiran negeri itu di-atas asas first instance for the establishment of yang sempurna dan baik. Tujuan ini Port Swettenham. Authority on 1st ada-lah berkehendakkan Keraj aan July, 1963, and for the establishment menggantikan geran2 yang lama sa- of other Port authorities in respect of banyak 28,000 dengan geran2 yang new ports. baharu. Sa-terus-nya pula masaalah You will recollect that one of the mendudoki Tanah Kerajaan dengan sa- recommendations in the Report of the chara haram di-Perlis hares juga di- Railway Economics Commission, which beri perhatian yang teliti. was presented to this House in June Berasingan Ranchangan, Penyelesaian last year as Command Paper No. 15 Tanah Perlis ini daripada Pejabat of 1962, was that Port Swettenham Tanah Perlis ada-lah di-laksanakan should be administered by a Port mengikut pengalaman2 yang telah Authority completely divorced from the di-dapati di-Kelantan yang mana Railway Administration. In the light ranchangan sa-rupa itu telah pun dan of this recommendation a Working sedang di-laksanakan dengan jaya-nya. Party was set up in April 1961 "to make recommendations regarding the Tuan Pengerusi, saya menchadang- future status and administration of kan. Port Swettenham as a separate Autho- Question put, and agreed to. rity". Amongst other matters the Working Party recommended that there The sum of $56,875 for Head S. 50 should be established for Port Swet- ordered to stand part of the Schedule. tenham a separate autonomous autho- rity on the same lines as the Penang Head S. 65 Port Commission and governed by The Minister of Works, Posts and similar legislation. Hence, we have this Telecommunications (Dato' V. T. Sam- Bill which follows the Penang Port banthan): Sir, this relates to the panel- Commission Ordinance, 1955, but the ling of the Library and Reading Room provisions are flexible so as to meet of the International Telecommunica- the varying requirements of different tions Union Headquarters with Malayan ports. The Bill is not intended to apply timber and plywood. I feel sure, to the Penang Port Commission and Members will consider this a laudable the Penang Port Commission Ordi- objective. nance, 1955, will remain in force after the passing of this Bill. Question put, and agreed to. The date 1st July, 1963, has been The sum of $7,000 for Head S. 65 chosen for the establishment of Port ordered to stand part of the Second Swettenham Authority not only to Schedule. enable it to function as a separate 535 29 MAY 1963 536 authority from the Railway Admi- services from revenue, capital from nistration from that date but also to revenue, renewals , Betterment and enable it to make necessary separate Development Reserves and liabilities. preparations for the proper operation Thus the separation of Port Swettenham of the four new berths in the North from the Malayan Railway Adminis- Kiang Straits which are due to be tration is mainly a financial and completed before the end of the year. administrative task and does not involve The transitional provisions contained operating difficulties. in Part VIII of the Bill apply to Port The new Port Swettenham Authority Swettenham Authority. These provi- is required to maintain , or to provide sions concern principally the transfer for the maintenance of adequate and of staff and undertakings which include efficient port services and facilities; to lands and other movable or immovable co-ordinate the activities of the port; to property from the Railway Admi- promote the improvement and develop- nistration to the Port Swettenham ment and to execute works . In brief Authority . They provide for the transfer the Authority would have to provide of officers and servants of the Mala- its own engineering, accounting, admi- yan Railway Administration on terms nistrative services , and in addition, to and conditions of service not less make its own provision for future favourable than those attached to their development of the port. services immediately before 1st July, For the purpose of advising the 1963, and for the continuance of Authority, provisions are contained in benefits under the pension schemes the Bill for the appointment of a Port and provident funds which transferred Consultative Committee, similar to the staff have previously enjoyed. Penang Port Commission Consultative Financially , the mechanics of separa- Committee, consisting of the Chairman, tion do not present undue difficulties, the General Manager and such other since for many years now, in anticipa- persons representing the providers and tion of the eventual separation of the users of the port services. As provided port from the Railway Administration, in Clause 7 (6), the Authority should the port accounts have been detached consult this Committee on matters from those of the Railway ; separate related to any substantial alteration in statements of accounts and separate the charges or scales of charges pres- reserves and provisions are maintained, cribed by the Authority, any major annual estimates for the port are scheme relating to the expansion or shown separately in the "consolidated" development of the port , and others. estimates of the Railway Administra- tion. The Government may under Clause 6 of the Bill provide the Port Swettenham Provision is being made for the new Authority or any other authority to Port Swettenham Authority to take which this Bill subsequently applies over cash and certain assets and with such sums as may be determined liabilities on 1st July, 1963 , to operate by the Dewan Ra`ayat for its working mainly on a cash basis from 1st July capital . At the present time, it is to 31st December, 1963, and to draw not the intention to provide working up account for that period. The capital for the Port Swettenham Autho- Railway will produce a joint balance rity, which is expected to be able to sheet on 31st December, 1963. The provide its working capital from its remaining assets and liabilities will be reserves and provisions. transferred to the new Port Swettenham Authority by the first day of January, With the passage of the Bill so much 1964. All expenditure on behalf of the of the provisions of the Railway Ordi- new Port Swettenham Authority on or nance, 1948, as relating to Port Swet- after 1st July , 1963, would be paid by tenham will cease to have effect. the Authority ; such expenditure will There has been a suggestion from include salaries, wages, civil, mechani- certain quarters that the Port Swet- cal, and electrical maintenance , railway tenham Authority should be given traffic operating, expenditure on special another name. We have considered 537 29 MAY 1963 538 this proposal and have decided that and shall hold office during his the name Port Swettenham Authority pleasure ; should remain for the reason that it (ii) two ex-officio members, namely- is not only a continuance of its present (a) the Director of Marine; and name but it is a name already known (b) the Settlement Secretary ; throughout the world and that it will (iii) two official members, of whom- be convenient to apply the name to (a) one shall be a person holding both the existing port and the new office of emolument in the port in the North Klang Straits. service of the Federal Govern- I believe there will be general ment, to be appointed by the High Commissioner in Council ; agreement that the establishment of and the new Port Swettenham Authority, (b) one shall be an officer of the with duties laid upon it, will go far Malayan Railway Administra- towards promoting the efficient opera- tion to be appointed by the tion and the development of the port High Commissioner in Council on nomination of the General in the best interest of Port Swettenham Manager, Malayan Railway ; and of the Federation. (iv) nine unofficial members, to be Sir, I beg to move. appointed by the High Commissioner Enche' Cheah Theam Swee : Sir, I in Council of whom- beg to second the motion. (a) one shall be a Member of the Settlement Council nominated Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong): by that Council ; Mr Speaker, Sir, I must say that I (b) two shall be persons appearing support the establishment of a separate to the High Commissioner to port authority for Port Swettenham. be qualified as having know- However, I do like to ask the Honour- ledge, respectively, of ocean shipping and of coastal ship- able Minister of Transport a few ques- ping; tions on the provisions of the Bill itself. (c) five shall be persons nominated The Minister took great pains to tell respectively by the Councillors us that the Bill as such differed very of the Municipality of George little from the Penang Port Commis- Town, the Penang Chamber of Commerce, the Penang Chinese sion Ordinance but that there was a Chamber of Commerce, the slight departure to give it more Indian Chamber of Commerce, flexibility. However, Sir, I do like to Penang, and the Penang Lighter point out that the whole idea of Owners' Association ; ." establishing a separate authority, a However, Sir, this was later amended, statutory authority, is to give that I think, to make a provision similar authority a certain amount of auto- to the one we have here in which, nomy; and from the Bill itself, it apart from the General Manager and appears to me that though the the other five members, or not less than authority is established as an inde- seven members, to be appointed by pendent authority with autonomy, we the Minister himself, there was no find that the Minister of Transport is statement as to who these people being given quite a great deal of should be; no specific mention as to power. I am sorry to say that in the what their qualifications should be; course of his speech, no explanation and on the top of that we have an was given as to why the Minister advisory committee which is also should be given so much power. similarly appointed. Sir, if we look at the original So, Sir, we have here a case in Penang Port Commission Ordinance, which almost the majority of the we will appreciate that as far as the members of the Commission is original Ordinance is concerned, there appointed by the Minister concerned is only the Penang Port Commission without specifically stating who those comprising of various people who were people should be. Under the circum- nominated. It says here : stances, it is natural that the Minister "The Commission shall consist of- can wield quite a great influence in the (i) a Chairman, who shall be appointed by the High Commissioner in Council Authority itself. Further, on the top 539 29 MAY 1963 540 of that Clause 3 (4) of the Bill says : rendered political service? I must say "The Minister may give to the authority here, Sir, that the activities or the directions of a general nature , not inconsis- record of the Honourable Minister of tent with the provisions of this Act, as to Transport do not speak very well for the exercise of the functions of the autho- rity." himself. We have seen his activities in the Penang Port Commission; we So, here we have another section have seen, perhaps due to pressure which gives the Minister further from the Honourable Minister of power. Had the Ministers of the Transport, that appointments to senior Alliance Government acted strictly in positions in the Port Commission are accordance with the terms of the Bill, made without advertisements, or Members of the Opposition would not without informing anybody in the have objected, or would not have country that it has proposed to make queried as to why Ministers are appointment to a senior position. So, allowed to have so much powers in here, Sir, having had such an regard to an Authority which is experience of the Minister, I am supposed to be autonomous. In the afraid that we will not be doing our past, Sir, we have seen that in every duty in this House, if we do not stand case statutory corporations are being up to protest and to expose the used not for the purpose of appointing attempt to give the Minister powers to people, who are best qualified to serve use political pressure on statutory in these statutory authorities , but are authorities. being used to provide rewards for political services rendered to the Party I shall be very grateful if the in power. I am sorry to say here, Sir, Honourable Minister of Transport can that as far as qualifications are explain to this House in more detail concerned nothing is said as to as to the idea of having statutory qualifications or experience-qualifi- authorities, the idea of autonomous cations with regard to knowledge of bodies. Will the Honourable Minister port business, of the transport industry enlighten us that as far as the matter as such but merely qualifications to of directions is concerned, which he the effect that one is not a bankrupt is empowered to do, what exactly is or that one is not of unsound mind. meant by such directions ? Does it In other words, an illiterate person, mean that he can use pressure or who may not know how to read and direct the Authority even on day-to- write, can even serve in this Commis- day administration ? Does it mean that sion . I will not be surprised if there he can direct the Authority to appoint should be such a person , who has whoever he feels should be appointed rendered political service to the to senior positions in the Authority? Alliance, and he is appointed to serve Why is such a clause necessary? If, on this Commission . As a result of after all, the Commission or the this, those of us who have served in Authority can only act within the such statutory authorities , or people terms of this Bill, where is the neces- who have served in such statutory sity for the Minister to have such authorities , usually in the course of powers? This I fail to appreciate, and conversation , do mention that Mr So- I hope the Minister concerned will and-So who has been appointed never enlighten this House as to why such uttered a word at a meeting, or knows powers are necessary. nothing about the procedure in the various statutory bodies. Is the Secondly, on the question of appoint- Minister really interested in establish- ments, will the Minister concerned ing an autonomous body, is he really kindly inform us as to his criteria of interested in establishing an autono- making such appointments , because he mous Authority the members of should have some ideas by now as to which could really contribute towards the class of persons who should be making the Port a real success, or is rn'ointed ? We do not want to give the he interested merely in filling up the Minister power to appoint whoever he Authority with members who have likes. On the question of qualifications, 541 29 MAY 1963 542 will he set out certain minimum qualifi- duty of this House to say whether cations for people to serve in this remuneration given is fair and reason.. statutory body? able. If no sum is mentioned, there is Thirdly, on the question of appoint- no basis for us to judge as to whether such sums are reasonable or otherwise. rents, will he give us an assurance that as far as appointments are concerned, Enche' Liu Yoong Peng (Rawang): politics will not come into considera- Mr Speaker, Sir, I stand up here not to tion? oppose this Bill. As my colleague has another aspect of the Bill, which pointed out, it is good to have a Port I wouldSir, like the Minister ^ to consider Authority if it serves well. But I want to point out a matter with regard to the is the question of policy with regard to establishment of this authority, and bankers. Time and again we have heard that is that in the past all along Port the Honourable Minister of Finance Swettenham port had been run by the stating in this House that the Bank Railway Administration and it has Negara is supposed to be the bankers been known that the reason why for the Government. This is a statutory in the last two years the Railway authority and, as far as possible, we Administration did not run into a rities-ifwould like to see bigthat statutory deficit autho- was due to the fact ithe Bank Negara is going to that Port Swettenham made more be a real success should also open an profits. Therefore, if in the future the account with the Bank Negara. Why management of the Port Swettenham should the Bill say nothing about it? port is taken over by this new The Bill is silent and it merely says authority, then how is the Malayan that, The authority may open a current Railway Administration not going to account with any bank approved by the run into very big deficits. So, while we Minister of Finance. Why should it be are considering this problem of setting not stated that the bank should be the up a new port authority, I think the Bank Negara? I would like the Honour- Minister at the same time should find able Minister to enlighten this House and means to see that the whether there are any special reasons ways Railway Administration will not run for not mentioning Bank Negara here. into a big deficit when the port is taken On the question of audit, again, it is away from it; otherwise the Railway stated here that, "The accounts of the Administration will be in very deep authority shall be audited by an auditor water, while at present the Administra- or auditors to be appointed annually by tion is quite all right. I hope the the Minister." I think the Minister will Minister can tell us what measures he agree with me that under normal is going to take to see that after the circumstances, accounts of statutory new port authority is set up the authorities should preferably be audited Railway Administration can also be by the Auditor-General of the Federa- run on a sound financial footing. tion. Why is it that in this particular Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Speaker, instance, it is not mentioned specifi- Sir, I presume the Honourable Member cally? Why should the Minister be for Tanjong was referring just now to given discretion as to which auditors Clause 8 (5) which says that "the should be appointed? authority may open a current account Finally, Sir, on the question of with any bank approved by the Minister allowance for members, nothing is of Finance" and perhaps to sub-clause stated here, but the Bill merely says (6) which says that money may be that, "There shall be paid out of the deposited in any bank approved by the fund to members of the authority, or to Minister of Finance. Honourable such of those members as the Minister Members will not that these two may determine, such allowances as he sub-clauses have provided rather widely may determine." I see no reason why so as to enable the port authorities to specific sums of money or specific rates have some measure of discretion, of remuneration should not be stated and if the Honourable Member for here in the Bill and I think it is the Tanjong had chosen to think a little 543 29 MAY 1963 544

more deeply, which is perhaps a bit was amended-the new one, not the difficult for him to do, he would have old one. I think just now he was realised that it is essential for the port quoting from the old Ordinance. Mr authority after all it is largely a Speaker, Sir, I would like to make commercial undertaking to have a it clear that when we establish a port bank account near its place of authority we will see that the national operation. You must remember that interests come first; and the Minister the main port authority will probably of Transport is not such a person, as be at Port Swettenham and even if it is the Honourable Member figures, that desirable to have an account with he would appoint even an illiterate Bank Negara, then is no branch of man to be a member of this authority Bank Negara at Port Swettenham. because of his political work. I Bank Negara is empowered to take challenge him on that : I will not do commercial accounts, but it does not that and none of the Alliance do so as a matter of policy. The Ministers will do that. I would like to wording of this Bill does not prevent tell the Honourable Member this : an account being opened in Bank please don't underrate our intelli- Negara if it is desirable to do so. gence. Mr Speaker, Sir, my pre- decessor has always had consultations Enche' Tan Phock Kin: On a point with business houses, Chambers of of clarification, if it is the desire to Commerce and so on on the appoint- have a local bank account for the ment of at least five and not more purposes of day to day operations than seven members under the new surely that can be stated in the Bill. Penang Port Commission Ordinance Enche' Ismail bin Idris (Penang in order to ensure that people with Selatan): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya wide experience in business, shipping suka hendak membetulkan sadikit and so on can be appointed, who will uchapan Yang Berhormat wakil dari contribute a lot to the discussions at Tanjong berkenaan dengan pengam- the meetings of the authority. Whether bilan orange bekerja oleh Port it is the Penang Port Commission or Commission. Mengikut Undang2 the Port Swettenham Authority we Penang Port Commission pekerj a2 will recommend only such people to yang bergaji $500.00 ka-atas ada-lah the Government to be appointed; we di-sifatkan sa-bagai Senior Officer. would not recommend anybody just Dalam pengambilan pekerja2 itu ada because he is an UMNO man or he sa-buah Jawatan-Kuasa is-itu Estab- is an Alliance man none of the sort. lishment Committee dan Establish- I can give you an assurance on that. ment ini-lah bertanggong-jawab untok We will appoint the best men to run bertemu duga dan mengambil orange the ports, especially Port Swettenham. itu. Hanya saya tahu Secretary atau We are proud of the Port Swettenham Setia-Usaha sahaja apakala di-kemu- Port and we have got four new berthes kakan oleh Establishment Committee there. We have put up a record and ini kapada Menteri yang bertanggong- everybody in this House will j awab untok menerima-nya. Tetapi appreciate that we should give credit sa-lain dari itu ada-lah kewajipan dan to the present Board of Port Swetten- tanggong-jawab Establishment Com- ham which, despite the fact that it has mittee ini untok mengemukakan been running the port with so many dengan Commission seluroh-nya. Itu- handicaps, has put up a very good lah sahaja uchapan saya untok mem- record and put up a very good show. baiki atau membetulkan apa2 yang Now we are establishing this Authority di-katakan oleh Yang Berhormat tadi. and surely with the coming into being of this Authority, work will be done Dato' Haji Sardon bin Haji Jubir: smoother and more efficient. If the Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Honour- Member for Tanjong has got any able Member for Tanjong was suggestions, please write direct to me. probably in this House when the If you have got any man whom you Penang Port Commission Ordinance think to be the best man, nominate 545 29 MAY 1963 546 him; but I cannot guarantee that your communicate it to me, and at the nominee will be appointed. At least same time also to put up suggestions you can suggest. on the establishment of this Port Swettenham Authority. Sir, the Minister of Transport, whoever is going to be the Minister of As far as the Member for Rawang Transport does not ask for more is concerned, I am glad that he is powers. The Minister is only directly concerned with the Railway, but I can concerned with the policy, and to help assure him, and I mentioned it just the Authority to improve the port as now in my speech perhaps I spoke a they go on. If the Minister is not given little bit too fast that at the present the power to direct in matters of time it is not the intention to provide policy, then the Penang Port Commis- working capital for the Port sion will have one policy, the Port Swettenham Authority, which expects Swettenham Authority will have to be able to provide its working another policy and soon when we set capital from its resources and provi- up a Port in Malacca there will be sions. In the early part of my speech another policy, and there will be I said that it was anticipated that Port confusion. All this will not be in the Swettenham would have its own autho- national interest. Therefore, we have to rity and, therefore, the Railway was give the Minister of Transport the far-sighted enough to have separate power to co-ordinate policies for the statements of accounts and whatever benefit of the national interests, and revenue and whatever expenditure for the power given in this particular Bill the Port is put aside and put into is nothing more than what is given in reserve. In other words, as far as the the Penang Port Commission Ordi- Railway is concerned, it has kept sepa- nance, except that in this Bill the rate accounts, with the result that we Minister is given the power to set up can do the work faster in separating and gazette the establishment of any these two authorities. We hope that the other future port authorities. We Honourable Member for Rawang will are looking ahead, for instance, to the support the Bill when it comes to this setting up of a port at Malacca, House to make the Railway Authority which is under consideration. It will into a corporation aggregate, and it is also ease the pressure of work by not hoped to do so by the 1st January, having to refer every now and then to 1964, in order to enable it to be put this House to get a Bill passed which on an efficient working condition, and again will delay matters. We would like thus to make the Railway Administra- to improve our ports as early as tion more efficient as a commercial possible. As a result of that, power is establishment. I am sure the Honour- given to the Minister responsible able Member for Rawang is satisfied with the idea that in case any of the with my explanation and assurance. other small ports would like to be improved and would like to have their Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: On a point own port authority, then they can of clarification. I am not asking refer to the Ministry of Transport and whether they have been keeping we will look into the matter and set up separate accounts efficiently, or whether the rules and regulations whereby we the accounts will run into deficit in will be in a position to allow them respect of the Railway Administration. to have their own authority to run the Of course, the Minister says that the port. Railway Administration and the Port I am sure the Member for Tanjong is Authority will be more efficient. I aware of the running of the Penang certainly hope that it will be so; it is Port Commission. So far, I have not too early for us to say whether it will heard of any complaints. If he has any be so now, but we will have a chance complaints, would he please communi- to see about it in the future, I hope. cate to me, suggesting how to improve Dato' Haji Sardon : Thank you. the Penang Port Commission. If he has a complaint, I would request him to Question put, and agreed to. 547 29 MAY 1963 548

Bill accordingly read a second time reason why the Minister should object and committed to a Committee of the to this amendment. whole House. Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the House immediately resolves itself Bill. into a Committee on the Bill. (Mr Speaker in the chair) Clauses 4 to 59 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. First Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 3 Second Schedule ordered to stand Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Chair- part of the Bill. man, Sir, in view of the explanation by the Honourable Minister of Transport Bill reported without amendment: that, as far as he is concerned, he will read the third time and passed. not interfere with the running of the Port on any other matters except on THE EXTERNAL LOANS BILL policy, will he himself agree to an Second Reading amendment of clause 3 (4) by adding the words "with regard to policy"? Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Speaker, Sir, With this amendment the clause will I beg to move that a Bill intituled read : "The Minister may give to the "an Act to authorise the raising of loans authority directions of a general nature outside the Federation to provide sums with regard to policy, not inconsistent required for the purposes of the Develop- with the provisions of this Act, as to ment Fund or for the repayment or amorti- sation of external loans, and to make general the exercise of the functions of the provision with respect to external loans." authority." If he is really sincere about it, I think he will be agreeable. be read a second time. Dato' Haji Sardon : Sir, I thought Prior to independence, the only my Honourable friend the Member for external loans raised by the Federation Tanjong has already been given an were raised in the United Kingdom. assurance and he can rest assured. If Such loans were authorised by Loan you want to put in the words "with Ordinances and were raised subject to regard to policy", you must put them the provisions of the General Loan everywhere. Surely, Ministers in charge and Stock Ordinance, 1949, and the of all Departments are dealing with Government Trustee Securities Ordi- policy matter only, not the administra- nance, which was re-enacted in 1957. tion. It is, as can be seen, the same The nature of such legislation was text that is used in the Penang Port dictated largely by the need to obtain Commission, and I think it has never trustee status for Federation loans in been abused. the United Kingdom and this involved meeting the requirements of the Colo- Enche' Tan Phock Kin: However, nial Stock Acts. This is no longer Sir, I have stated very clearly in this necessary in view of the amendments House that the reason why I have made to United Kingdom legislation. suggested this is not motivated by anything else but by the actual carrying Furthermore, with the increased rate out of functions in the past. I did of development now being undertaken make a few allegations with regard to by the Government it has become the running of the Penang Port essential to raise external loans in Commission which were not replied countries other than the United King- to and here again I was given an dom. It is necessary therefore to enact assurance that everything was going on new legislation which will authorise very well and all that. However, if it is the raising of loans in any country really the intention, then there should outside the Federation, and which will be no quarrel whatsoever with a simple provide a general framework for the amendment of this sort, and I see no raising of such loans. This is the 549 29 MAY 1963 550 purpose of the Bill now being consi- I shall be moving three minor dered by this House. amendments to Clauses 2, 4, and 5 of the Bill during Committee. The The Bill authorises the Minister of amendments are of a technical and Finance to raise loans which in the drafting nature only. aggregate will not exceed $300,000,000 for the purposes of the Development Sir, I beg to move. Fund and on such terms as he consi- ders suitable. The terms on which Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Sir, I beg loans will be raised can only be to second the motion. decided at the time each loan is Peng: Sir, on the raised, but I wish to emphasise that Enche' Liu Yoong no expenditure of the funds received question of borrowing money from by way of loan can take place without other countries, I think the Govern- ment is now becoming increasingly too the approval of this House in accordance with the provisions of the much dependent on borrowing from Development Fund Ordinance. It may them. As the Deputy Prime Minister also be desirable to re-finance existing has pointed out, it is because of Malay- foreign loans rather than to repay sia that defence expenditure is going them at maturity, and therefore provi- to be increased, although the Minister sion is made for loans to be raised of Finance did explain that the loans for the repayment or amortization of are not for defence but for develop- loans raised outside the Federation ment. Anyway, I think it amounts to under the provisions of any Federal the same thing, because if more money law. had to be spent on defence, then less money can be obtained from revenue The Bill contains the necessary for development, with the result that, provisions for raising and managing in order to have more development, loans, including the terms of issue. money must come from outside, from These provisions are in a flexible form somewhere else not from revenue. with a view to making the Act Sir, I think the way for us to remedy applicable to loans raised in different the situation is not just by borrowing countries and to loans that may be and keep on borrowing. Some solution raised under later legislation. In should be found. I would suggest that, previous loan legislation, detailed firstly the Government should maintain provision was made for administrative peaceful relations with neighbouring matters such as sinking funds, etc., countries, so that we do not have to but in this Act, in order to retain provide too much expenditure for flexibility, such matters will be dealt defence; secondly, we should not allow with by deed to be prepared at the money to run out of the country too time each loan is issued. easily as it is now. I think, Malaya is like a broken basket, where you put Loans raised under the provisions in water and the water disappears of the Act will not be subject to either somehow. the General Loan and Stock Ordi- nance, 1949, or the Government Sir, when foreign investors invest Trustee Ordinance, 1957, and certain in this country, as soon as they make sections of the former which are no a profit, they take the profit back to longer required are repealed. It is their own countries. That is not not considered desirable that these "ploughing-back" as the Minister of Ordinances should be repealed entirely Commerce and Industry has pointed as existing external sterling loans have out and I am glad that he did point been raised subject to their provisions, it out. Sir, there should be more of and to alter the initial conditions on this "ploughing-back" of profits into which the loans were raised may well the country for industrial development have an adverse effect on confidence and other purposes, and the sooner amongst investors at a time when the Government does something about it, Federation is hoping to raise new in the form of legislation, the better external loans. it would be that is, to insist that 551 29 MAY 1963 552 foreign investors cannot take away too expenditure; we should not allow much profits from this country. Fur- foreign capitalists to take away too ther, in relation to this, there is also much profit form the country; we question of the balance of trade. I should try to expand trade ; and we think, if the Minister of Finance is very should cut down the importation of sincere, he will have to admit that there luxury goods into this country. If we do is a considerable amount of money all these, then our financial position that is being taken back by foreign will be much better, and we do not capitalists to their countries, and also have to rely on foreign loans which there is quite an amount of money are actually a burden for our future which we spend on buying foreign generations. Sir, if we do not earn goods. After taking into consideration enough to meet the present demand of all these and the amount we make from the population, we will only increase selling goods to other people, we do our burden of loans ; and if we cannot not have a favourable balance of pay- repay them, the future generations will ments in Malaya, and every year the suffer. May be the Alliance is not going balance is more and more not to our to be in power and thus leave the work favour. How is the Government to to other people? remedy this situation? As I said, the answer is for the Government to Enche' Mohd. Asri bin Haji Muda increase our exports to other countries (Pasir Puteh): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, and cut out a lot of unnecessary import sekarang ini kita akan membenarkan trade into this country. From country Yang Berhormat Menteri Kewangan to country, we should insist that the untok mendapatkan pinj aman wang balance of trade should not be too yang akan menjadikan jumlah pin- much to our disfavour, and then we jaman wang kapada angka yang lebeh will be in a better position. Most besar daripada sekarang ini dan mung- important of all, we should increase kin menyebabkan melibatkan kewang- our exports to other countries but, as an negara pada masa akan datang I said, we are not doing our best. Only untok membayar balek wang pinjaman the other day the High Commissioner itu sama ada bayaran pokok atau pun for Australia said that there was no bayaran interest itu sendiri. Sa-benar- Trade Commissioner in Sydney for nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, meminjam quite some time; and yet every day in wang luar negeri untok pekerjaan pem- Malaya we see that Australia is putting bangunan negeri ini ada-lah satu up very good advertisements of their perkara yang sadikit sa-banyak boleh commercial products, and they also di-pertanggong-jawabkan, tetapi mesti- put up an exhibition and even one of lah melalui satu kaedah atau chara their Deputy Trade Commissioners yang boleh menjamin bahawa pinjaman went to some shops to do salesman- wang untok membena negara itu di- ship on the spot. Whereas in the case laksanakan dengan chara dan kaedah of Malaya we do not have a Trade yang benar2 dapat menghasilkan ke- Commissioner in Australia for quite bangkitan ekonomi dalam negeri mi. some time. This is merely an example, Mengikut keterangan Yang Berhormat and there is quite a lot more to Menteri Kewangan wang itu akan di- comment on with respect to what gunakan untok membangunkan negara effort the Government has really made pada masa akan datang, tetapi saya towards increasing the sale of our suka-lah memberikan perhatian sadikit products in other countries. Yesterday, bahawa pembenaan negara yang di- Sir, the Minister of Commerce and maksudkan itu hendak-lah di-ambil Industry was complacent when he said perhatian oleh Kerajaan sekarang ini that Opposition parties might have supaya jangan-lah wang2 kegunaan agreed with his trade policy. I am negara itu di-gunakan bagi project2 afraid I cannot agree with him here. yang sa-mata2 bersifat hendak berlagak sombong atau bermegah2. In conclusion, Sir, I would say that we should try to be at peace with other Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada dua sebab countries in order to cut down defence orang yang berhutang itu, satu sifat 553 29 MAY 1963 554 manusia yang berhutang, dia membeli atau pun dengan sa-chara tidak lan- pakaian, baik pun membeli basikal dan song. Ada-lah lebeh baik dan mustahak pakaian yang chantek2 atau pun mem- sa-kira-nya pinjaman itu di-lakukan beli untok keperluan keluarga-nya. daripada badan2 International yang Ada satu lagi bentok manusia yang tidak mempunyai kepentingan politik, meminjam duit di-gunakan duit itu sa- sa-chara demikian sahaja-lah yang bagai modal untok membangkitkan dapat menjamin kedudokan pinjaman ekonomi itu sendiri atau untok di-per- kita itu tidak melibatkan kedudokan niagakan saperti membuka kedai, politik negara kita dan bagi negeri itu membuka kilang dan sa-bagai-nya dan sendiri. Sa-belum daripada saya dudok wang pinjaman itu dapat di-bayar dari- saya teringat Yang Berhormat dari pada hasil keuntongan yang di-per- Johor Tenggara beruchap baharu2 ini niagakan-nya itu. Demikian-lah saya kata-nya berhutang itu telah menjadi maksudkan bagi pembenaan negara penyakit kapada manusia . kita, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, supaya wang itu di-gunakan untok kebangkitan Tuan Syed Ja`afar bin Hasan Albar ekonomi benar2 dapat menjamin suatu (Johor Tenggara): Tuan Yang di- kedudokan yang tertentu dan tidak-lah Pertua, saya hendak membetulkan di-lakukan lebeh 4 daripada kerja2 kesilapan Ahli Yang Berhormat itu, pembenaan negeri itu dengan sifat mengikut Standing Order 35 (4) . . . bermegah2. Barangkali pada masa yang akan datang boleh-lah Yang Berhor- Mr Speaker: Itu apa ada kena- mat Menteri Kewangan dan ahli2 mengena dengan itu? Dudok dahulu ! Jema'ah Menteri sekarang ini memi- Di-dalam Majlis ini hanya sa-kali ki.rkan chara bagaimana wang itu sahaja Yang Berhormat itu boleh ber- dapat di-gunakan: Banyak negeri2 chakap, tetapi jika dia hendak memberi manakala mereka dapat menchapai keterangan, baharu boleh saya benar- kemerdekaan mereka juga telah me- kan. Sekarang saya hendak bertanya, minjam wang dan boleh di-katakan ada-kah hendak on a point of order 100 per cent pinjaman wang itu di- atau apa ? gunakan sa-bagai modal untok mem- Tuan Syed Ja`afar bin Hasan Albar: bangunkan Industry dan perusahaan2 Standing Order 35 (4). kilang dan sa-bagai-nya yang kemu- dian daripada itu dapat di-bayar balek Mr Speaker: Please proceed! sa-bagaimana yang di-lakukan oleh India dan negara2 lain. Jadi, Tuan Enche' Mohamed Asri bin Haji Yang di-Pertua, dapat-lah dengan chara Muda: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Ahli yang demikian walau pun banyak sa- Yang Berhormat dari Johore Tenggara kali pun meminjam wang di-luar negeri pernah berkata bahawa berhutang itu akan dapat mendatangkan hasil sudah menjadi ta' biat manusia semen- yang banyak. Kerana pinjaman yang jak manusia ini ada dalam dunia. Jadi tidak mendatangkan hasil bagi mem- kalau berchakap memang senang, Tuan bangunkan ekonomi yang tidak meru- Yang di-Pertua, tetapi saya tidak fikir pakan Industry atau perdagangan dan Dato' Adam dahulu pernah berhutang perusahaan tidak-lah memberi faedah dengan Nenek Hawa. Jadi pehak kami yang banyak bagi kebangkitan ekonomi soal negara hendak berhutang dengan negara. luar negeri memang perkara ada sebab2 yang lain. Tetapi biar-lah hutang itu Sa-lain daripada itu, Tuan Yang di-gunakan kapada kaedah yang benar2 di-Pertua, di-dalam kita hendak me- dapat menjamin bagi negara dan minjam duit itu satu perkara yang ra'ayat negeri mi. mustahak yang mesti hendak di-ingati is-itu jangan-lah salah tempat, yang Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Mr Speaker, boleh mengikat politik International Sir, members of the Government pada masa yang akan datang. Jangan- backbenches when they heard the lah kita berkehendakkan wang menye- Honourable Minister of Finance babkan sa-hingga terpaksa politik luar speaking just now would have com- negeri terganggu baik sa-chara lansong plimented the Honourable Minister 555 29 MAY 1963 556

of Finance for the manner in which these loans. So you see, Sir, it is clear he introduced this Bill, but they should from these examples that the Govern- appreciate the very grave financial ment is desperately in need of money. position of the Government. He has Why is it so? We have just embarked created the impression as if this is quite on a Five-Year Development Plan. a normal thing, that it is simply seek- Calculations for the various projects in ing the permission of this House to the Five-Year Plan were made, but enable the Government to borrow we never envisaged that we need such money from external sources to the large loans from external sources. As tune of $300 million and almost a result of it, in considering our Five- casually he has told this House that it Year Plan we have embarked on a is to assist in our development pro- great deal of non-productive develop- jects. He made no mention of the ments, developments which will not immediate necessity of it. He has give us any return whatsoever. We created the impression that he may have embarked on prestige projects of not even use the provisions of this Bill various nature. Had the Minister in the immediate future. concerned, or the Government, consi- dered seriously all these when the However, Sir, the truth of the fact Second Five-Year Development Plan is that the Government is desperately was put forward, it would have acted in need of loans. It cannot get loans more wisely and less extravagantly. I from local sources and it is trying to remember that when the Five-Year get them from external sources, and Development Plan was put forward a very good indication of the anxiety we pointed out in this House that a of the Government to get loans from plan for a long period must be very abroad is the provision in Section, conservative and that we must make Part II ; and I regret to say that the sure that under any circumstances we Minister of Finance in the course of will be able to carry out every project. his speech made no mention at all with The most we got from the Minister regard to this special provision, which concerned was a sneering laughter. He says that- was very confident that the price of "Sub-section (2) shall authorise the Minis- rubber will remain at that level. ter to include among the terms and conditions However, Sir, events have shown very of any external loan provisions for exempting from income tax or other taxes the interest clearly that this is not so and circums- on an external loan or for exempting from tances today are such that the Minister exchange control the debt charges or any will have to go crawling for loans. As description of debt charges in respect of an pointed out, the errors of the Minister external loan ;". of Finance and the errors of the present I submit, Sir, that this is an indication Government will have to be paid for of the desperate need of the Govern- by posterity. The Minister has made ment for loans, so much so that it goes no attempt to tell us that since the to the extent of even exempting such Alliance Government came into power interests from income tax. We must what is the rate of increase in the realise that the rate of interest then national debt of our country. The more will tell a false story as to how much debts we incur the more interest we interest we pay on such loans. It may have to pay, and with our present be said that we are paying only 4 per commitments I fail to see how those cent. due to the generosity of the monies are going to be raised. There Government of such and such a place, were talks of no taxation for the but we fail to take into consideration Borneo territories for the initial period that the 4 per cent. is exempt from to welcome them into Malaysia; there income tax. So, by comparison with were talks, various talks, of not raising other loans raised, the interest rate is taxation perhaps as a preparation for very much higher. In recent loans the elections; but where is the money from our own people we may have going to come from? The Minister is had to pay a certain rate of interest, silent on this, though he admits that but in return we are getting income tax we have no money, and the easiest from them from the interests paid on solution is to go for loans. The Minister 557 29 MAY 1963 558 himself appreciates that as far as this use trying to run away from the facts. country is concerned and he has told An honest Government will face this to the House we have reserves realities and shoulder them with the in the form of sterling securities in the responsibility that is expected of it. A United Kingdom. We, in this House, Government that is unable to do that is have advocated time and again that not worthy to carry on. The indepen- the Central Bank should as soon as dence we have is a heritage which we possible take over the function of a all obtained for ourselves, and I feel note issuing authority and thereby that it should be the duty of every we can make use of our reserves, and Government to carry out its responsibi- our reserves can be transferred back lities and not, because of impending from the United Kingdom. However, crisis, to hide the facts from the people, we were told that we could not do that trying to tell the people that everything until the formation of Malaysia, that is all right, while at the same time it there will be merger and all that. And knows that everything is not all right. now that there is going to be merger, I hope that the Honourable Minister I regret to say that we have not heard of Finance, in the course of this debate a word from the Minister of Finance will clarify to this House as to why it with regard to what action the Central is necessary to obtain further loans and Bank proposes to take on the question whether in the light of the present of note issue. How much reveune are circumstances he felt that had all the we reserving for our sterling securities? full facts been known to him before the Can the sterling securities be utilised Five-Year Development Plan was put more fruitfully at home, if we are in before the House, he would have dele- need of funds for our development ted a lot of the non-productive and projects? These are questions which non-essential projects. I appeal to him the Minister concerned must enlighten to be honest to this House and to be this House. We admit we do not know honest to himself. Being a very prudent and it is for the Minister to tell us. man he should be able to differentiate The only reason the Minister had when between what is of beneficial interest this question was brought up some to the country and what projects are time ago was the question of confi- not beneficial to the country; and I dence. On the one hand, he was telling hope that he will not merely, as he us that people in foreign countries has done before, evade the whole were so confident of us that they were issue and introduce irrelevant matters quite prepared to lend us money, whilst into the debate. on the other hand he said that if we were to be our own note issuing Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Speaker, authority the people might not have Sir, before I reply to the points which that confidence in us. Whatever it is, have been raised by the three speakers it is still the Alliance Government, and who have spoken, it might perhaps be if the people do not have confidence, useful if I give a little bit of back- then the Alliance Government should ground history for the education of the not boast of their achivements and the Honourable Members, who have confidence they command overseas. spoken, and particularly that of the The confidence they have is because Honourable Member for Tanjong. He of the sterling securities, not because seems to have an unrivalled capacity of the Government. This statement for twisting facts and I hope, perhaps, from the Alliance Government, from we can be charitable and credit it to the Minister of Finance, is an open ignorance rather than to a deliberate admission of this fact. It is as clear as intention to deceive. The Honourable day-light. So here, Sir, we have this Member for Tanjong, I think, remem- very serious state of affairs as far as the bers that we have such a thing called financial position of this country is the Second Five-Year Development concerned, and an honest Government Plan, and he would probably recall should tell the poeple so. It is no use that when this Plan was submitted to trying to hide the facts from them in this House and considered by it, it was view of the coming elections ; it is no approved with acclamation and if I 559 29 MAY 1963 560 am not mistaken this particular Hon- and last, but not the least, that these ourable Member, the Honourable loans will be repaid in due course and Member for Tanjong, I think, in good money. That, I think, will take criticised the Government on the care of the advice and I think it is ground that we did not go far enough. very good advice given to us by the Now, one of the essential ingredients Honourable Member for Pasir Puteh of this Plan is that it provides for who, alone among the three speakers, external loans to the tune of $535 spoke at least constructively. He million and in fact the success of advises us to ensure that if we do the Plan depends in part on our ability manage to raise loans we should put to raise this quantum of external loans them to good use. I think we can give in order to finance the Plan in full. that assurance quite readily because, Now, so far our total external debt as I have stated in this House on many is of the order of about $400 million occasions in the past, the broad policy or a little more -I cannot remember of the Government is to allocate the exact figure, but it is roughly $400 roughly between 70 and 75 per cent million. It will, therefore, readily be of its available development funds to seen that we are still below our target economic projects and the remaining of $535 million. I, therefore, find it amount is to be allocated to social rather strange that the Honourable services, Government projects, and the Member for Tanjong, who in one like. If we stick to that formula, I breath castigated the Government for think we need have no fears that not going far enough in its objectives money raised by means of external in regard to the Five-Year Plan, should loans will not be usefully spent, in now criticise the Government for the sense that they will eventually exactly the opposite reason-that it is lead to more revenue and increased trying its very best to implement the national income, thus enhancing our Second Five-Year Plan by raising the productive capacity and our economic level of external loans to the level en- strength. The very fact that these visaged in the Plan. I think I can loans are commercial loans will hardly say more for the mental also dispose of the other piece of dexterity of the Honourable Member advice given by the Honourable for Tanjong. Member for Pasir Puteh that we should ensure that these loans are not I should make its clear that these subject to political conditions or loans are designed to be commercial political strings. If they were Govern- loans, and they will be raised in the ment loans, there might be a slight commercial' markets of the main finan- danger of that, but if they are com- cial centres of the world London, mercial loans raised on a businesslike perhaps later on New York, and some basis, I think the Honourable Member other major European capitals. If for Pasir Puteh will appreciate that this Honourable Members will bear in question is not likely to arise. mind that these loans will be strictly commercial loans, they will realise Sir, I think what I have said will that these loans will not be forth- serve as a reply to the Honourable coming unless the lenders, who are Member for Rawang, who has sugges- private individuals, the ordinary men ted that the main purpose of these loans and women, are satisfied that these was to provide for greatly increased loans are safe that means in due expenditure on defence necessitated by course both the capital and interest; in Malaysia. If, as I have said previously, particular the capital, will be repaid. we were to try to raise loans for pur- If these loans are to be subjected poses like defence, he will find, as I to that kind of scrutiny, they are have found, that Wall Street and the not likely to be forthcoming unless City of London, and the financiers there the prospective lenders are satisfied will be ten times tougher even than the that the country concerned is sound, Member for Tanjong. As I have stated that the policies pursued by the in this House on previous occasions, Government are sound and reasonable, it is not at all easy to raise loans on a 561 29 MAY 1963 562 commercial basis. It is one thing to attacking us for our temerity in trying get Government-to-Government loans to raise loans, and he coupled it with because they may be given on the basis what he called "our deteriorating of political considerations. But if you position in our balance of payments" want to raise a loan on your own and now he tells us that there is no credit in a foreign market and this connection whatsoever between the particularly applies to under-developed two. countries in Asia and Africa. you have The Honourable Member also tells got to give not only economic but also us that we should increase our exports good political reasons, that you are in order to improve our economic likely to ensure political stability before position. That, I think, is the only you have a sporting chance even of coherent statement made throughout making a start. And if we succeed in the course of his speech. However, at this endeavour, I think we will have the same time, again, he and his col- achieved something very unique, be- leagues on the Socialist Front bench cause we will then be the only country have always criticised us whenever we in the whole of Asia and Africa, apart tried to promote matters which don't from Japan, which has succeeded in help in the industrialisation of this raising a commercial loan in the major country. I mean that, although we have capital markets of the world, and that enough, probably a fair amount of is really a feather in our cap. capital and technical know-how, the The Honourable Member for Tan- only way to industrialise rapidly is to jong has asked how we have done since give a fair deal to foreign investors, so independence. Unfortunately, he does that they can provide us with the not do very much home-work; other- technical know-how for rapid indus- wise he would have discovered that we trialisation, and we also have to certainly have increased our external consider bringing in external capital not reserves since independence, at one only in the form of equity but also in stage to $400 million, and I think I the form of loans. And I am sure that am right in saying that we are the only if we pursued that policy vigorously, in country in Asia and Africa which has order to make a significant impact on achieved this. This, I think, is very the economic position of this country, important and very significant indeed ! the first people to criticise us would be The prize contribution to this debate Honourable Members of the Socialist was made by the Honourable Member Front. for Rawang. He tried to tell us that if Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Sir I am we raised loans, that was bad for our afraid the Honourable Minister of balance of payments. While I was Finance .. . listening to him, I wondered whether Mr Speaker: You must ask for my he knew what the term "balance of permission before you speak, because payments" really meant, and I have we are not in Committee and you have little doubt that he has never seen no right to speak any more. But if you balance of payments figures. If you want to raise a point of clarification, have a loan or you manage to get a I can allow that. loan overseeas, the amount of that loans, that figures, is added to your Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Can I seek balance of payments, not subtracted a clarification, Sir? from it. Mr Speaker: Yes, but not very long! Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: Sir, on a Enche' Tan Phock Kin: The Honour- point of explanation -I did not say able Minister of Finance has forgotten that the loan has any thing to do to give a reply with regard to sterling directly with the balance of payments. reserves. I wonder whether he cannot I was talking of trade, not loan, when do so, or whether he is unwilling to do I referred to the balance of payments. so. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: The logic of Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Sir, I cannot the Honourable Member for Rawang remember what he said about sterling is even more admirable, because he was reserves. Can he repeat it? 563 29 MAY 1963 564

Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Sir, in the ment as specified in the Amendment course of the debate, I mentioned Slip which has been circulated to something about the Central Bank Honourable Members : being made the note-issuing authority. Leave out in sub-section (3) the words With the present arrangements, the "they are raised", and insert "when the country is having some sterling reserves amount to be raised is determined". in the United Kingdom in accordance This amendment is required as there with the agreement with the Currency may be an alteration in exchange Commissioners. In that respect, I ask rates between the time when the terms the Minister as to when the Central of the loan are decided upon and the Bank will become the note-issuing actual date of issue of the loan. The authority, because in the course of the application of the limit of $ 300► million debate, we were told that we would in such circumstances could result in a have to wait until after merger; and, as position whereby the loan could not merger is coming now, I would like to be issued in accordance with the provi- know whether the Minister has any sions of the prospectus without ex- plans with regard to this or whether ceeding the limit. This is clearly he still thinks it is too early. undesirable, and the amendment now proposed would prevent such a situa- Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Speaker, tion arising. Sir, I have known that the Honourable Member never read what he should Question put, and agreed to. read before he spoke. I am now begin- Clause 2, as amended, ordered to ning to realise that he cannot hear stand part of the Bill. when he has got ears to hear. If he will refer to my Budget Speech made in Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the December 1961, he will notice that I Bill. made a point then that with the com- ing into being of Malaysia the ques- Clause 4 tion of the Central Bank taking over Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, the note-issuing authority will be Sir, I beg to move the following two settled automatically, and for this amendments which have been speci- reason the five territories, which fied in the Amendment Slip circulated are now participating in the Currency to Honourable Members : Agreement, should also be the five (a) Leave out in subsection (2) the territories which will form the new words "the Minister may deter- Federation of Malaysia, in which case mine", and insert "may be the question of the Central Bank determined by or with the taking over the note issue would be a authority of the Minister". very simple matter. I think the answer is clear and conclusive enough. (b) Leave out in subsection (4) the words from "exempting" in the Question put, and agreed to. third line to "loan" in the fourth Bill accordingly read a Second time line and insert "exemption from and committed to a Committee of the taxes". whole House. I shall deal with the first amendment, House immediately resolved itself that is the one in regard to sub-clause into a Committee on the Bill. (2), first. It is the practice for Bill considered in Committee. Commonwealth Governments issuing loans in London, to appoint loan (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) agents who can agree to variations in the terms on which the loans are to be Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the issued as it is sometimes necessary to Bill. agree to minor variations in the terms of the loans as a result of movement in Clause 2 the market. The amendment now Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, proposed will enable the Minister of Sir, I beg to move the following amend- Finance to appoint a loan agent who 565 29 MAY 1963 566 can be authorised to agree to last- of paragraph (b), it is necessary in order minute changes in the terms on which to make it clear that the Minister may loans are issued. authorise the Registrar by deed to The second amendment is to sub- regulate the management of the loans Clause (4) of Clause 4. This and on all matters arising in connection amendment will enable the Minister therewith. Provision for this has, in to examine not only the interests on fact, been made in paragraph (f) of but the principals of the loans from Clause 5, lower down. any tax imposed by the Federation With regard to the second amend- Government. Although there is no ment, that is the one in respect of tax on capital or capital gains at paragraph (e), this is proposed in present in the Federation, it it con- order to make it clear that the sidered desirable that provision should Minister may provide in the deed for be made for exempting the principal certain matters to be variable without of any loan from Federation taxation requiring a meeting of stockholders. should the Minister of Finance consider This will enable minor administrative this to be desirable and should such a procedures to be varied at the tax be introduced in future . Question discretion of the Minister of Finance put, and agreed to. should provision for such variation be made in the terms of the deed. Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Question put, and agreed to. Clause S- Clause S, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Enche' Tan Siew Sin: Mr Chairman, Sir, I beg to move the following two Clauses 6 and 7 ordered to stand amendments specified in the Amend- part of the Bill. ment Slip which has been circulated to Honourable Member : Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill. (a) Leave out in paragraph (b) the words "or regulate". Bill reported with amendments : read the third time and passed. (b) Insert in paragraph (e) after the word "with" in the first line the Mr Speaker: Time is now 6.30 p.m. words "or without requiring". The House is now adjourned to 10.00 With regard to the first proposed o'clock tomorrow morning. amendment, that is the one in respect Adjourned at 6.30 p.m.