Letters

‘Unfossilized’ Books, Green Forest, AR, 1998. This book these [ and , is an adventure story of our trip and not a some of which contain ] in scientific report of the bones. Alaskan dinosaur a catastrophic framework suggests 2. Davies, K.L., Duck-bill (Hadro- that perhaps female dinosaurs bones? sauridae, Ornithischia) from the North Slope of Alaska, J. Paleontology 61(1):198–200, retained their eggs within their 1987. bodies until the eggs were almost Recently, I have been barraged ready to hatch, as some modern with a number of inquires about the 3. Brouwers, E.M., Clemens, W.A., Spicer, R.A., Ager, T.A., Carter, L.D. and Sliter, W.V., do (Goin et al. 1978). dinosaur bones I collected from the Dinosaurs on the North Slope of Alaksa: high When the season for -laying North Slope of Alaska in 1994.1 The latitude, latest environments, Sci- arrived, they would search for a literature reported that the preservation ence 237:1608–1610, 1987. place to build a . The land of the bones was ‘remarkable’.2,3 This 4. See . led many, including myself, to believe surface during the flood was not that the bones were ‘unfossilized’. all underwater all the time (as Many (but not all) of the bones we evidenced by the numerous animal collected were very lightweight, which Dinosaur eggs tracks on mudflat environments), seemed to confirm this hypothesis. so the dinosaurs built nests on It was our hope, because of the and the post-Flood an exposed surface and laid their ‘remarkable’ preservation, that these eggs. The next inflow of sediments bones might contain some ancient boundary catastrophically buried the nests organic molecules. To date, our tests (nests of eggs would be well- have not been able to confirm the Andrew Sibley has suggested preserved only by rapid burial). ‘unfossilized’ hypothesis. Twenty the possibility that pregnant female ... This could happen repeatedly, of the bone samples were analyzed dinosaurs could have postponed laying resulting in several levels of nests in Russia for collagen. Only four their eggs until days/weeks into the in the same geographic area. This showed positive results. We became Genesis Flood, by which time the story certainly should not be suspicious of these results when we embryos would have been well- taken as a final answer, but it is a were not able to confirm them with developed.1 He cites the Komodo hypothesis to be tested.’3 tests made by other labs. One report monitor as an example of a We have ample means for from a reputable laboratory in the that can breed during the heat of the ‘testing’ the hypothesis that female United States told us the samples they summer, but can withhold laying its dinosaurs may have held their eggs tested were ‘extremely degraded’. eggs until cooler months, such as almost to maturity before depositing Some of the bones have also been September. He also points out that them on newly-exposed Flood tested for DNA. The results were if eggs are withheld for too long they sediments, even though the testing inconclusive. From our results thus develop a second shell, suffocating the cannot be accomplished with live far, the bones should not be referred . This may serve as a parallel dinosaurs naturally. The reference to to as ‘unfossilized’. to dinosaurs, whose eggs on rare Goin et al. in Brand’s quotation above The Bureau of Land Management occasions have been found with double is probably to either or both of the reports4 that the Alaskan bones are shells. According to Sibley, dinosaurs following two passages: fossilized, but all of their pore spaces would have withheld their eggs until ‘Usually the young of amphibians have not been filled in with rock, suitable times during the Flood when hatch after the eggs have been making many of them lightweight. they could walk out on freshly exposed laid and the animals are said to be They also report that no DNA had been land and lay their eggs—eggs that oviparous. Rarely, however, the discovered in the bones, but because would be close to maturity. This they eggs are retained in the body of of their condition, they might be good could do repeatedly, accounting for the female while they pass through candidates for it. Until further testing eggs at different stratigraphic levels. their embryonic development and can prove otherwise, the Alaskan More recently, Walter R. Barnhart has the young are “born alive.” If the dinosaur bones should be referred to likewise hypothesized that ‘embryo developing embryo in the mother’s as ‘fossilized’. development may have been already body is nourished entirely by food well underway when some dinosaur stored in the of the egg, the John H. Whitmore eggs were deposited’.2 animal is ovoviviparous.’4 Cedarville, Ohio One of the first creationists to ‘Most reptiles are oviparous. UNITED STATES of AMERICA suggest that dinosaur eggs may have Some lizards and snakes are References reached near maturity within the ovoviviparous, with the eggs uteruses of females is Leonard Brand, hatching either in the or 1. Davis, B., Liston, M. and Whitmore, J., The who wrote: just after they are laid. ... Eggs of Great Alaskan Dinosaur Adventure, Master ‘One hypothesis for interpreting some colubrid snakes, examined at

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ovideposition The warmth of the dinosaur would take mother’s body from heat generated by place very early extensive swimming or track-making in embryonic during the Flood likewise could mean development at that their eggs would not have been the latest. One held for very long in the mother’s body. should also Additionally, as Sibley points out, if keep in mind eggs are held for very long in a mother that all modern Komodo’s body, then a second layer is analogs cited deposited on the . The extreme in creationist rarity of second layers on dinosaur eggs l i t e r a t u r e proves that most dinosaur eggs were (Sibley and deposited in a fairly short period after B r a n d , f o r their formation in the female’s body. Photo by Sasan example) refer Moreover, the extreme rarity Most reptiles are oviparous, with their young hatching outside their body to ectotherms, of dinosaur eggs discovered within after the eggs have been laid. or cold-blooded fossilized dinosaur skeletons argues vertebrates, against the idea that gravid female the time of deposition, contained such as amphibians, , snakes, and dinosaurs were carrying their eggs embryos ranging from 15 to 55 lizards. Dinosaurs most likely were not for weeks or even months during the mm in length. Such eggs may ectotherms, and some have suggested Flood, otherwise one should find eggs not hatch for two or three months. they were endotherms, or warm- within, or near to, articulated dinosaur Alligator eggs also seem to go blooded creatures.7 Possibly, though, skeletons buried suddenly in a watery through some development in the they were at an intermediate state catastrophe.11 Eggs would have no oviduct before deposition. This between ectothermy and endothermy. time to be ejected! The first conclusive is also true for some of the spiny Recent evidence from growth discovery of dinosaur eggs within lizards (Sceloporus).’5 lines in tyrannosaur bones offers a dinosaur skeleton has now been Do the above examples confirmation that dinosaur metabolism reported in 2005.12 provide modern analogs for the extinct was midway between that of modern Significantly, only two eggs dinosaurs and their reproductive and reptiles.8 This has important were found in the cloacal area of an behaviour? The answer is found when implications on whether dinosaur oviraptosaurian dinosaur, suggesting one considers the relationship between eggs were retained for very long that dinosaurs had two as in egg-shell thickness and the degree of within the living females. The great modern crocodiles, but did not retain development that takes place in the egg number of dinosaur tracks and the a whole clutch of eggs in their uterus prior to egg laying, or ovideposition, as length of trackways indicate that a prior to laying, as do modern reptiles illustrated in the following quote: large amount of metabolic heat would and amphibians. Elsewhere, two ‘The extent of gas exchange may have been generated within the bodies clutches of oviraptosaurian dinosaurs explain the amount of development of these large creatures, which would have been discovered with an adult that occurs prior to oviposition in be detrimental to any embryos within atop the clutches, each clutch having reptilian eggs (Andrews 2000). eggs. Jerry Bergman has recently at least fifteen eggs. If eggs were laid Turtles and crocodilians have highlighted findings showing that only two at a time, which is more like thick and oviposit at birds could not retain their eggs for a all modern birds that lay just one egg the gastrula and neurula stages, long duration in their bodies because until another is produced, then the egg- respectively. On the other hand, the warmth of the exercising mother laying process happened over a period most squamates have relatively thin would have led either to death or to of a few days and not all at once. This eggshells and oviposit when 25 to deformation in the young.9 The body would be comparable to ostriches that 40 percent of development has been temperature of birds ranges between lay one egg every two days until the completed (Shine 1983a, DeMarco 40° C and 41° C in most cases. In one proper clutch size is reached.13 1993). While shell structure is experiment, if eggs were kept at a If these parallels with modern associated with the amount of temperature of 40.5° C. for an extended -laying hold up, then the development at oviposition, the period of time, then 84% of the young incubation of dinosaur eggs would extent of vascularization of fetal died. Bergman concludes: be ex vitro, not in vitro.14 This holds and maternal tissues may also be ‘If the embryos were in the mother important implications for Flood contributing factors.’6 bird’s body for a longer period of geology. Regardless of whether we can Dinosaur eggs are all thick time, their survival rate would be piece together the exact details of the shelled; hence one would expect that drastically lower.’10 dinosaur egg-laying process, we can

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they laid their eggs on newly-exposed land in: Currie et al., ref. 11, pp. 219−221. during the Flood. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in 15. Any creatures that are active and agile and the Flood: a response, TJ 12(1):71, 1998. that have hard-shelled eggs, such as birds, 4. Goin, C.J. and Goin, O.B., Introduction to would not be able to retain a full clutch of Herpetology, W. H. Freeman and Co., San eggs in their uterus because of the obvious Francisco, CA, p. 96, 1962. reason that quick movements would result in jostling and eventual cracking of eggs. That’s 5. Goin and Goin, ref. 4, p. 110. one reason why birds lay their eggs very soon 6. Pough, F.H., Andrews, R.M., Cadle, J.E., after shell formation is completed. Dinosaur Crump, M.L., Savitsky, A.H. and Wells, K.D., eggs, being generally larger than most birds’ Herpetology, 2nd Ed., Prentice Hall, Upper eggs, would not be able to have a full clutch Saddle River, NJ, p. 244, 2001. In recent retained in their uterus for the same reason, and literature the word ‘ovideposition’ is used that is to prevent cracking. Two eggs retained interchangeably with ‘oviposition’. in the two sides of the uterus, as in this latest 7. For information on the warm-blooded dinosaur oviraptosaurian discovery, would thus avoid theory, see Bakker, R.T., The Dinosaur the problem of cracking. Heresies: New Theories Unlocking the 16. Johns, W.H., Did dinosaurs lay eggs and hatch Mystery of the Dinosaurs and Their Extinction, young during the Flood? TJ 11(3):318−323, Morrow, New York, 1986. 1997. This was written in response to Michael 8. ‘Several lines of evidence suggest that Oard’s proposal that all egg-laying and nest- dinosaurs had a higher metabolism and faster building activities of dinosaurs took place growth rates than living reptiles do (although during the ‘Inundatory stage’ of the Flood, that Photo by Steve Cardno and Mike Rogers not as fast as birds’).’ See Stokstad, E., Bone is, while the waters were rising on the earth, study shows T. rex bulked up with massive some time before the end of the first 150 days. The great number of tracks and the growth spurt, Science 305:930, 2004. See Oard, M., Polar dinosaurs and the Genesis length of dinosaur trackways influence our Flood, CRSQ 32(1):47−56, 1995. My 1997 understanding of the Flood/post-Flood 9. Bergman, J., Is egg laying by birds evidence letter was also written in support of the point boundary. of bird evolution? Creation Matters 9(2):1, 5, made by Paul Garner that the natural reading 2004. of Gen 7:17−23 is that all terrestrial creatures safely deduce from the latest discovery 10. Bergman, ref. 9, p. 1. died within the first 40 days of the Flood. See Garner, P., Where is the Flood/post-Flood that female dinosaurs did not retain 11. Grellet-Tinner and Chiappe report that the a whole clutch eggs to near maturity boundary? Implications of dinosaur nests in ‘preservation of a female [dinosaur] with the Mesozoic, TJ 10(1):104−105, 1996. Let’s within their bodies because only two eggs in its reproductive system [is] an suppose that Oard and others are correct in 15 eggs were produced at a time. event that has not yet been conclusively stating that the Inundatory stage of the Flood All of this discussion on documented.’ Grellet-Tinner, G. and Chiappe, lasted a full 150 days. Here is how Flood L.M., Dinosaur eggs and nesting: implications chronology would have to be calculated, based dinosaur nest-making and egg-laying for understanding the origin of birds; in: is healthy in that it has important upon the new evidence of dinosaur egg-laying Currie, P.J., Koppelhus, E.B., Shugar, M.A. habits: implications regarding the duration and Wright, J.L. (Eds.), Feathered Dragons: of the ‘Inundatory’ stage of the Flood, Studies on the Transition from Dinosaurs to Days 1−40 Forty days of rain— geological deposits of 3,000−12,000 whether it lasted 40 days or 150 days, Birds, Indiana University Press, Bloomington, IN, p.186, 2004. The picture has now changed metres in thickness laid. and regarding the question of dinosaurs with a new discovery made after this 2004 − 16 Days 41 50 Ten days for drying of being post-Flood. book was published. See Sato et al., ref. 12. exposed sediments to enable dinosaurs Warren H. Johns 12. Sato, T., Cheng, Y., Wu, X., Zelenitsky, D.K. to walk on them. Berrien Springs, Michigan and Hsiao, Y., A pair of shelled eggs inside a Days 51−57 Seven days for laying of UNITED STATES of AMERICA female dinosaur, Science 308:375, 2005. oviraptosaurian eggs, two eggs per day 13. Carpenter, K., Eggs, Nests, and Baby Dinosaurs, with 15 per clutch. References Indiana University Press, Bloomington, IN, Days 58−107 Fifty days for average p.177, 1999. incubation time for dinosaur eggs ex 1. Sibley, A., Dinosaur eggs, TJ, 17(2):68−69, 14. Paleontologists studying the nests of the vitro. 2003. theropod dinosaur from the Upper Days 108−137 Thirty days for growth of Cretaceous of the US and Canada concluded 2. Barnhart, W.R., Dinosaur nests reinterpreted, young dinosaurs, according to M. Oard, that eggs were laid in pairs and that no more − CRSQ 41(2):90, 2004. ref. 16, p. 53 54. than two eggs were laid per day. All embryos Days 138−150 Thirteen days for a second 3. Brand, L. Faith, Reason, and Earth History, within a single nest at site MOR 246 show the catastrophe to kill off the dinosaurs— Andrews University Press, Berrien Springs, same amount of bone development, indicating stony bolide or an icy comet (resulting MI, p. 293, 1997. It is remarkable how similar that incubation did not begin until all the eggs perhaps in an ice age, as proposed by the concepts of Sibley and Brand are, but I see were laid. ‘The clutches are oval and contain some creationists). no evidence that Sibley was acquainted with up to 24 eggs. ... Iterative egg-laying at daily Brand’s book. Michael J. Oard, writing after or greater intervals produced pairs of eggs The average incubation time of 50 days for Brand’s book was published, also discussed within clutches.’ Varrichio, D.J. and Jackson, dinosaurs is admittedly hypothetical, but briefly the possibility that female dinosaurs F.D., Two eggs sunny-side up: reproductive nevertheless reasonable based upon analogs were ‘just on the point of giving birth’ when physiology in the dinosaur Troodon formosus; with modern birds and reptiles. The larger the

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egg, the longer the incubation time, is the rule. due to the embryo taking out out that there is now one case of eggs See Carpenter, ref. 13, pp. 199−202. Varicchio of the shell as the embryo grows. It associated with a dinosaur skeleton. and Jackson have concluded that the time for egg-laying plus incubation in the dinosaur is difficult to know the exact meaning However, this observation is also a Troodon occupied about 60 days (ref. 14, p. of such relatively thick dinosaur problem for the uniformitarian and 220). eggshells, since dinosaurs are unlike post-Flood models. In the post- Below dinosaur egg-laying nesting sites in any animal alive today and very few Flood scenario, all these dinosaurs western North America lie a minimum of 3,000 eggs contain embryos.1 Apparently, would have had to die in local and/or metres of fossil-bearing sediment, according there are more dinosaur eggs that have regional catastrophes. Then why to Oard (ref. 16), but in the Junggar Basin thick shells because of a pathological weren’t the eggs preserved? The lack of China with several locales with dinosaur nests in Cretaceous deposits lie approximately second layer, as revealed by scanning of preservation of eggs could be due 12,000 metres of pre-Cretaceous fossil-bearing electron micrographs, than previously to unique factors in the Flood. Some sediment, according to McKnight, C.L., thought.2 possibilities are a lack of preservation, Graham, S.A., Carroll, A.R., Gan, Q., Dilcher, Those who suggest the possibility the expulsion of eggs while the D.L., Zhao, M. and Liang, Y.H., Fluvial of embryo development within the dinosaurs floated, or that the female sedimentology of an Upper Jurassic petrified forest assemblage, Shishu Formation, Junggar dinosaur have used modern analogs dinosaurs had already laid their eggs. Basin, Xinjiang, China, Palaeogeography, also, although Johns points out that The new discovery of two eggs Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, 79:4, these analogs are only for modern within a dinosaur skeleton is quite 1990. The deposition of 12,000 metres of cold-blooded creatures. It seems that informative and suggests that dinosaurs sediment within 40 days calculates to 300 modern amphibians and reptiles possess held only two eggs at time. Based m/day, or 12.5 m/hour, or 0.2 m/minute. It would be highly unlikely for the many Chinese a variety of habits when it comes to egg on modern analogs, Johns suggests dinosaurs to survive a sedimentation rate of laying and incubation. Since dinosaurs the dinosaurs generally laid two eggs up to 12.5 m/hour for a period of 40 days or may have had intermediate metabolism each day. So it could take a dinosaur more, after which time they laid eggs and in a between warm- and cold-blooded does up to 10 days to lay a clutch of eggs. few cases saw their young hatched, only to be not in itself negate the views of Brand This is one possibility. However, the destroyed by another catastrophe! and Sibley. second possibility of near continuous Johns also assumes that eggs had to egg laying is still a viable option,6 since Michael Oard be held within the dinosaur from before some clutches come in nice geometrical the Flood. This is possible based shapes, such as spirals, two parallel responds: on imperfect modern analogs. It is rows, circles and arcs.7 If a dinosaur certainly possible that some dinosaurs laid two eggs a day, how could a dumb I agree with Warren Johns that mated during the Flood, especially since animal lay such nice geometrical shapes the discussion of dinosaur eggs and the Flood was not a gigantic catastrophe over a period of a week? Another possible analogs is healthy, and that everywhere on the earth for the first 150 argument for this second option is it has important implications for the days—a simplistic concept.3 Dinosaur that if a mother dinosaur laid only two Flood. Johns raises a number of good mating could points that advance the discussion of have occurred whether dinosaur remains, eggs, and o n e m e rg e n t tracks are Flood or post-Flood, as well Flood sediments as the duration of the Inundatory Stage or land not yet (40 versus 150 days). It is well known inundated by that Johns believes that the Inundatory the Flood that

Stage was 40 days and that dinosaurs continued in After drawing by W. Barnhart, could not have made tracks and laid this condition eggs early in the Flood, so they must for many days.4 be post-Flood.1 F r e s h l y l a i d Flood sediments Biological arguments could remain exposed for many Johns believes we can test whether weeks based on CRSQ dinosaurs held onto their eggs until the dynamics 41 close to embryo maturity by examining of strong Flood :91, 2004 the shell thickness. The thicker the c u r r e n t s o n shell the more immature the embryo, ‘shallowly sub­ and since dinosaur shells are thick, the merged c o n ­ Some clutches of dinosaur eggs have nice geometrical shapes, such as embryo must have been immature after tinents.’5 spirals, parallel rows, circles and arcs. This clutch of protoceratopsid egg laying. This observation is likely Johns points eggs was found in Mongolia.

TJ 19(3) 2005 69 Letters eggs a day, the embryos would have different development, if the ambient temperatures were cool and she did not wait to incubate the eggs until all were laid. Apparently, one dinosaur clutch, MOR 246, contains multiple embryos of the same development. In a Flood model, I would expect fairly warm atmospheric temperatures, so that the development of the embryos would be different if laid two a day. Whether the dinosaur mothers laid two eggs a day or all at once may or may not be a problem for a Flood model, because very early Flood sediments may become exposed above sea level for weeks. One question in all this, assumed by both uniformitarians and post-Flood advocates, is: ‘Did dinosaur eggs hatch and were babies reared by the mothers for awhile?’ Uniformitarian Shell fragments, with their concave surface upward, are often found at the bottom of broken dinosaur eggs. scientists simply believe that if the top of an egg is broken off, the baby were ‘semi-altricial’,11 or helpless Dinosaurs could simply have floated in hatched. However, there are several at birth. This could mean that the the floodwaters and also not generate other explanations for explaining the very small dinosaurs could also be that much heat. Furthermore, are birds rather rare ‘hatching window’, such embryos, which a few researchers a good analog for a possible dinosaur as scavengers, erosion of the tops believe.14 Third, embryos of some heat problem? since the bottoms were commonly hadrosaurs can be as long as one metre, laid half-down in soft sediments, and Evidence of unusual egg-laying 8,9 such as the lambeosaurine hadrosaur sediment crushing. Furthermore, Hypacrosaurus stebingeri.15 When one activity shell fragments with the concave considers that it is difficult to identify surface upward are often found at the the type of dinosaur from embryos or As evidence for an early-Flood bottom of these broken eggs.10 If an babies,16 and that there are no adult explanation for dinosaur eggs, as well embryo hatched, the shell should be dinosaur remains associated with the as tracks and bonebeds, there are many outside the egg. group of babies, then it is possible that indications of unusual activity that one Apparently, there are only one the remains are embryos. Regardless, would not expect in the uniformitarian or two claims of babies hatching and 19 being reared in the nest by ‘good if the remains do represent actual or post-Flood catastrophe models. mothering lizards’.11 One of these hatched babies, these dinosaurs grow Some of these indications are: very fast and would represent a time of 1. the rarity of embryos in the is near ‘Egg Mountain’, northwest 17 16 of Great Falls, Montana. One ‘nest’ only one to two months. This could eggs, with babies 45 cm long was later happen early in the Flood, considering 2. the complete absence of any attributed to embryos. A second ‘nest’ that this situation is apparently unique indication of vegetation with the 20 that contained babies 90 cm long is over the earth, and that relatively low nests, 12 considered to have been reared by their sea levels can be maintained by the 3. the rarity of true nest structures, Maiasaur mothers. However, there are dynamics of Flood currents for a month 4. the lack of association between 18 a number of questions related to this or more. Clearly, more research is adult to late juvenile skeletons with observation. First, some researchers required. younger dinosaurs, question whether the dinosaur remains I also think that the heat problem 5. most asymmetrical eggs have the are in a nest, since true nests are based on tracks and possible swimming pointed end down and buried half actually very rare.12 Second, some in floodwaters is not that clear cut. way in soft sediment,21 and believe that the dinosaur remains could We don’t know whether they are the 6. evidence that sedimentation was be precocial, that is independent after same dinosaurs that made tracks and occurring while eggs were being hatching and did not need a ‘good then laid eggs. The tracks could easily laid.10 mothering lizard.’13 Horner now have been made by slow-walking The fifth indication is a concedes that these dinosaur remains dinosaurs that would generate less heat. problem because the pointed end down

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The first part of the Flood year, when the floodwaters were rising on the earth, has been called the Inundatory Stage. is an unstable orientation and the egg rose and then they retreated with the until Day 40,26 as I have suggested as should have been knocked over by the common use of the sacred numbers a possibility: ‘Furthermore, verse 17 embryo or the mother. 40 and 7. Shea admits that his chiastic could mean that the Flood came upon structure could be only approximately the earth for 40 days before the Ark Duration of the Inundatory Stage correct.25 Besides, it is difficult for floated’.27 me to believe that a possible literary The bottom of note 16 provides In his note 16, Johns alludes to his structure forces the Inundatory Stage what Johns believes is a logical hypothesis that the writer of Genesis to be 40 days. deduction of my position. This 6−9 employed a literary device of As far as the order of Genesis 7, sequence is a straw man and presumes reverse-order parallelism for the early it is a general chronological sequence a lot. Since, there is about 1.6 km average depth of sedimentary rocks Flood and the late Flood, so that the and sometimes jumps back in time. It on the continents, thick sedimentary Inundatory Stage could not have lasted does not specifically state that all air- 1 rocks would have mainly filled in local 150 days. Furthermore, he states that breathing animals expired by Day 40. or regional basins early in the Flood,28 − a natural reading of Genesis 7:17 23 I have maintained that Day 150 is a such as the Junggar ‘Basin’ in China. is that all terrestrial creatures died by maximum time and that a case can be As these basins fill up, the top of the Day 40. I have addressed these issue made for the Inundatory Stage being sediments is raised toward sea level, 22,23 elsewhere. The reverse-order 40 or 150 days. It is also possible that making the area vulnerable to a local parallelism, a chiastic structure, is seen the floodwaters peaked before Day drop in sea level that can be caused by a little differently by various authors.1,24 150 and were falling when the Ark at least four mechanisms. In note 16, This literary device seems to be grounded on the Mountains of Ararat. Johns presumes that dinosaurs were general, and Johns leaves out specific I don’t believe Johns and others can be incubated and hatched over a few events. Besides there is a reverse-order so dogmatic. In fact, a good case can be months, but I think these assumptions parallelism in that the floodwaters made that the Ark did not start floating need research.29

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Further problems for post-Flood worldwide planation surfaces were 16. Horner, ref. 7, p. 31. dinosaurs carved in the mid ‘Cenozoic’.36 I 17. Horner, J.R., De Ricqlès, A. and Padian, haven’t seen even a suggestion from K., Long bone histology of the Hadrosaurid dinosaur Peeblesorum: growth Except for those limited number the post-Flood catastrophists of how dynamics and physiology based on an of dinosaurs that left the Ark and such events could possibly transpire ontogenetic series of skeletal elements, J. lived for awhile after the Flood, John after the Flood, except that very heavy Vertebrate Paleontology 20(1):115–129, Woodmorappe and I have published post-Flood rain carved planation 2000. many geological and paleontological surfaces.37 18. Barnette and Baumgardner, ref. 5, pp. 80–81. reasons why the vast majority of It is much more logical that the 19. Oard, M.J., The extinction of the dinosaurs, dinosaurs were buried in the Flood.30–32 dinosaurs died early in the Flood, TJ 11(2):145–147, 1997. We also have provided logical reasons since all air-breathing animals that 20. Horner, ref. 7, pp. 28–29. why dinosaur eggs and tracks were lived on land had to die by Day 150. 21. Holt, R.D., The Dinosaur Nest, 1994 made early in the Flood, the Inundatory I suggest that advocates of post-Flood (unpublished manuscript). Stage. Except for minor quibbling, catastrophism need to re-examine their 22. Oard, M.J., Polar dinosaurs: response to I have not seen a refutation of these assumptions. Garner, Robinson, Garton and Tyler, CRSQ ideas. 32(4):237–239, 1996. I live among these dinosaur References 23. Oard, ref. 8, pp. 70–71. features. The strata that contain 24. Shea, W.H., The structure of the Genesis Flood dinosaur fossils, tracks, eggs, etc. has 1. Johns, W.H., Did dinosaurs lay eggs and hatch narrative and its implications, Origins 6(1): young during the Flood? TJ 11(3):318−323, 8–29, 1979. been deposited in an area about 5,000 1997. km long from northern Canada to the 25. Shea, ref. 24, p. 27. 2. Jackson, F.D. and Varricchio, D. J., Abnormal 26. Barrick, W.D. and Sigler, R., Hebrew and New Mexico/Texas area. It is around multilayered eggshell in birds: implications for geological analyses of the chronology and 1,500 km east-west with thicknesses dinosaur reproductive anatomy. J. Vertebrate parallelism of the Flood: implications for Paleontology 23(3):699−702, 2003. exceeding 1,000 m. Furthermore, interpretation of the geologic record; in: based on igneous and sedimentary 3. Woodmorappe, J., personal communication. Ivey, Jr., R.L. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Fifth remnants, hundreds of metres of 4. Oard, M.J., Polar dinosaurs and the Genesis International Conference on Creationism, sedimentary rocks have been eroded Flood, CRSQ 32(1):47−56, 1995. Technical Symposium Sessions, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, PA, from the area, down to the level where 5. Barnette, D.W. and Baumgardner, J.R., Patterns pp. 397–408, 2003. we observe dinosaur remains.33 of ocean circulation over the continents 27. Oard, ref. 22, p. 237. Just think of what this means for during Noah’s Flood; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), those who believe these dinosaurs Proceedings of the Third International 28. Reed, J., The North American Midcontinent Conference on Creationism, Technical Rift System: An Interpretation Within the 22 are post-Flood. The dinosaurs must Symposium Sessions, Creation Science Biblical Worldview, Creation Research Society propagate rapidly from two of each Fellowship, Pittsburgh, PA, pp. 77–84, 1994. Monograph No. 9, Creation Research Society, Chino Valley, AZ, 2000. kind (probably around 50 kinds) 6. Varricchio and Jackson in ref. 14 of W.H. leaving the Ark after the Flood. They Johns’ above letter, p.226. 29. Oard, ref. 8, pp. 73–76. must spread all over the earth and 7. Horner, J.R., Dinosaur reproduction and 30. Oard, ref. 19, pp. 137–154. multiply to many millions during the parenting, Annual Review of Earth and 31. Oard, ref. 8, pp. 69–86. 34,35 Planetary Science 28:25–28, 2000. Ice Age. How long will it take for 32. Woodmorappe, J. and Oard, M., Reply to millions of dinosaurs to spread into 8. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in the Flood: A response, ‘Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood’, North America? Let us say it is on TJ 12(1):75, 1998. TJ 17(1):57–59, 2003. the order of 200 years. Then all these 9. Barnhart, W.R., Dinosaur nests reinterpreted: 33. Oard, M.J., Where is the Flood/post-Flood ‘Mesozoic’ dinosaurs must be killed in evidence of eggs being laid directly into boundary in the rock record? TJ 10(2):258– rising water under conditions of stress, CRSQ 278, 1996. post-Flood catastrophes, all the time 41(2):99–100, 2004. carefully avoiding being entombed 34. Oard, M.J., An Ice Age Caused by the Genesis 10. Barnhart, ref. 9, pp. 89–102. with large ‘Cenozoic’ mammals. An Flood, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, CA, 1990. enormous amount of sediment was 11. Horner, ref. 7, pp. 32–34. deposited on the high plains and 12. Chiappe, L.M. et al., Nest structure for 35. Oard, M.J., Frozen in Time: The Woolly Mammoth, The Ice Age, and the Bible, Master Rocky Mountain region during these sauropods: sedimentary criteria for recognition of dinosaur nesting traces, Palaios 19:89, Books, Green Forest, AR, 2004. catastrophes, as indicated above. 2004. 36. Ollier, C. and Pain, C., The Origin of Hundreds of metres more strata were 13. Geist, N.R. and Jones, T.D., Juvenile skeletal Mountains, Routledge, New York, 2000. deposited on top and then somehow structure and the reproductive habits of 37. Wise, K.P., Faith, Form, and Time: What eroded down to the present level—all dinosaurs, Science 272:712–714, 1996. the Bible Teaches and Science Confirms in the post-Flood period! This is not to 14. Horner, J.R., Egg clutches and embryos of About Creation and the Age of the Universe, mention all the tectonics over the world two hadrosaurian dinosaurs, J. Vertebrate Broadman and Holman Publishers, Nashville, and that practically all mountains Paleontology 19(4):607, 1999. TN, p. 213, 2002. have risen in the late ‘Cenozoic’ after 15. Horner, ref. 14, pp. 607–611.

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