In Conversation╦
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ITJ 1 (1) pp. 5–18 Intellect Limited 2017 Indian Theatre Journal Volume 1 Number 1 itj © 2017 Intellect Ltd Interview. English language. doi: 10.1386/itj.1.1.5_7 Indian Theatre Journal Intellect 10.1386/itj.1.1.5_7 1 INTERVIEW 1 5 RICHARD SCHECHNER New York University 18 SREENATH NAIR University of Lincoln © Intellect Ltd 2017 In conversation… Sreenath Nair: Richard, you have a long history of interaction with Indian theatre, people, performances and events. Richard Schechner: I’m familiar with the Ramlila. But, I’m not that familiar with Indian theatre. I have seen a good range of traditional Indian perfor- mances, seen few modern Indian theatre productions, directed a couple of productions in India and spoke in few conferences. When I go to India, I mostly go to Varanasi for Ramlila and visit my friends in Delhi. So, I don’t think of myself as much informed about Indian theatre. SN: Can I start this conversation with a basic question? Why do we need theatre and what functions do you think theatre perform in social and individual life? RS: Your question is part of a larger question of why do we need art and what function does art have in social life? We don’t need art to survive physically. But humans don’t live by bread alone. Isn’t it compelling that even the poor- est people, those who barely have food, shelter and clothes, still perform their religious rituals, sing songs and dance? They share what little they have with the gods. Performance activities in the service of religion, or in the service of art or in the service of pleasure – or all of these combined – continue regardless www.intellectbooks.com 5 ITJ_1.1.indb 5 4/13/2017 5:00:57 PM Sreenath Nair | Richard Schechner of who you are and how rich or poor you are. These activities human beings consider fundamental. A person who never sings or never says a line of poetry, who never dances, who never thrills at seeing a beautiful object, who never gazes at a powerful murti in a temple or sheds a tear during a film or play: we do not regard that person as a full human being. Performance activities are fundamental to the human condition. We eat, we sleep, we have sex, we make art. There are people in the upper Amazon, and elsewhere too, who have no clothes at all, who are 100 per cent naked for most of their life, and other people with almost no shelter at all, who don’t live in a house. But there is no one who doesn’t do some singing, some dancing and some keeping of a favourite object or two. Yes, the aesthetic impulse is fundamental. Another fundamental is curiosity about the ‘big questions’ of life and death: the ultimate. Everyone wonders: Why was I born? What will happen after I die? Who will care for my family? Why do I love who I love? These are large questions are often addressed by religion, philosophy and art. In fact, these three go together, are always infiltrating and affecting each other. Religion is philosophy is art; art is religion is philosophy; philosophy is religion is art. If you want to honour a god or a force of nature or a beautiful or terrifyingly sublime experience, you make something: an image, dance, song, poem, story. This is true not only in India, but everywhere. When I enter one of the great cathedrals of Europe, I am experiencing art that I know is in relation to religion. Or religion expressed in/as art. The same for when I participate in Ramlila in Ramnagar, across the Ganga River from Varanasi. The Ramlila is a religious act, but it is also theatre, it is also art. In the Ramlila, the people address the larger questions of life. Which art was first? The ‘cave art’ of Europe and elsewhere goes back more than 30,000 years. Incredible. Some ‘jewellery’ – necklaces, marked shells and so on – go back even further. I put these in quotation marks because we don’t know what the makers of these thought and felt – whether they could express in terms that we understand, concepts such as ‘art’. What we do know is that modern people, we, respond to these images and objects in the same way that we respond to art. For us, the images of Lascaux or Chauvet are art. Along with those items, in some caves, there are footprints in the clay indicating dancing – circular movement. I would reason that the performing arts are the first in terms of time. Look at the primates, the great apes who are our closest relatives. They move in a rhythmic ways, they make rhythmic sounds. So before humans could paint or sculpt, I believe we were singing, dancing and making music. SN: True. Art addresses some fundamental questions about human existence as does religion, philosophy and science. When did you go to India first, and what took you there? RS: I first went to India in 1970. How I took that trip is an intriguing story. In 1968, I was doing Dionysus 69, my first production in New York. At the end of one performance, as I was milling around with the spectators as I almost always did, an older man made himself known to me. ‘This is a very interest- ing performance’, he said. ‘You must have been to Asia. There is so much that is Asian in it’. I asked him what he meant. ‘The audience participation, the staging without a stage, the mixture of religion and art’. I said, ‘No, I have never been to Asia, but thank you for your praise’. The man replied, ‘Well! You must go’. Being young – I was 34 at that time – and the man was much older – I brashly said, ‘All right, then. You should send me!’ Without missing a beat, took out his card. ‘When you are ready to go, call me’, he said, ‘Really?’ I 6 Indian Theatre Journal ITJ_1.1.indb 6 4/13/2017 5:00:57 PM In conversation… replied, astonished. ‘You just phone me, come and see me, and I will sponsor a trip to Asia for you’. This man turned out to be Porter McCray, at that time the head of the JDR 3rd Fund, a nonprofit bank-rolled by John D. Rockefeller 3rd promoting cultural exchanges between the USA and Asia. Later on, the JDR 3rd Fund became the Asian Cultural Council. McCray was 60 when I met him. I took McCray at his word. When I met him in his JDR 3rd Fund office a week or so later he said to me, ‘You can go anywhere you want in Asia. You can stay for as long as you want’. I asked if Joan MacIntosh – we later married and still later divorced – a member of The Performance Group and a key performer in Dionysus in 69 – could go with me. ‘Yes’, McCray replied. I elected to take a trip of around 6 months, starting in October 1971. The time lapse between meeting McCray and my journey was needed to prepare The Performance Group for my absence and for me and Joan to plan our Asian itinerary. I visited almost every Asian country I could get into: China, Tibet, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma (later named Myanmar) were off limits. We decided not to go to Nepal, Pakistan and New Zealand, I don’t remember why, and to this day I have not been to those countries. Where did I go? India, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, Australia, Indonesia and Papua New Guinea. I spent the longest time in India, about four months. Actually, New Delhi was where I landed on a flight from Europe where The Performance Group was perform- ing Commune. After about a week in Delhi, we took off for Kolkata, called Calcutta. Later we travelled to many places in India. In New Delhi, it was my very good fortune to meet Dr. Suresh Awasthi, the Secretary of the Sangeet Natak Academy, India’s national agency of theatre, dance and music. The Akademi specialized in traditional rather than modern, that is, Westernized, forms. Guiding the Akademi was Dr. Suresh Awasthi, a boundlessly energetic, knowledgeable and enthusiastic scholar-promoter of traditional performing arts. Awasthi was like a bird, angular, thin, with poking gestures. He spoke rapidly and seemed to know everyone – performers, teach- ers, producers, directors. Awasthi was interested not only in preserving the traditional but also in encouraging a ‘theatre of roots’, whereby modern and traditional collaborated to make new fusion arts. Awasthi himself was born in a village, he appreciated the way the vast preponderance of Indians, at that time, lived. He knew an astonishing number of Indian performance genres, and he wanted me to see as many as possible. Awasthi knew the history of each form and the leading living expo- nents. He arranged for Joan and I to travel all over India from Mumbai to Kashmir, Calcutta to Kerala, Assam to Lucknow, Vrindavan to Varanasi and more. I don’t remember how many performances we saw, or all the different kinds. It was not the season for Ramlila, so I did not see it. But I saw, at least, bharatanatyam, odissi, pand pather, jatra, tamasha, kuchipudi, kathakali, kutiyat- tam, teyyam, chhau, kathak, raslila. Beyond the fold and art performances were visits to many temples – so different north and south – and so very intense with the crowds of worshippers, the smell of prasad and flowers, the ringing of bells, blowing of conch shells, chanting.