Zoro: Dealing with Success and Failure By Rick Mattingly

n the introduction to his book The Big Gig, RM: Another thing I had to learn was that suc- same potential for greatness. It’s simply Zoro says that the most frequent ques- cessful people are not necessarily born with the because they worked harder. When you see tion he has been asked over the years is, skill they become known for. Mike Mainieri them after they’ve polished their skills, you I“How did you make it?” He spends over once told me that when Steve Gadd first came think they have more genius potential than 400 pages explaining the skills and attitudes to New York, he was a great jazz drummer you do. he developed that led to gigs with such art- but, according to Mainieri, “Steve was the last If you have a natural gift for drumming, ists as Lenny Kravitz, Bobby Brown, Frankie guy you’d call for a funk gig.” But he said that you have the potential for greatness. So if Valli, the New Edition, Jody Watley, Philip Gadd really dedicated himself to mastering we all have that potential, then the ones Bailey, and many others. He is also a success- funk, and he became one of the best funk drum- who achieve it are the ones who work hard- ful author, having written The Commandments mers in the business. er. Then the talent becomes obvious. Gadd’s of R&B Drumming and The Commandments of Zoro: Right. We all start out playing the mu- talent wasn’t as obvious when he first got Early Rhythm & Blues Drumming, along with sic that we heard when we were growing up to New York—at least in terms of funk. The Big Gig. But that proves we can learn things Zoro’s career is a true success that aren’t natural to us by immersing story. He grew up in a household ourselves into it and being humble with a single mother and seven enough to learn from people who do children, in a poor neighborhood it well. It all begins with having the with few luxuries. But what he desire. I’ve studied lots of people who lacked in physical comforts he are great at things, and they do have made up for with determination a natural aptitude for whatever their and a positive attitude. He had to skill is, whether it’s being a musician create his own opportunities and is or a lawyer. But the rest of it is doing very much a self-made man. something with that aptitude. For all of his successes, he—like There’s genius potential in each all successful people—has had his of us. Whether we reach it or not is share of failures. So when we spoke entirely up to us. I look at things in a recently, instead of talking about spiritual sense as well. Talent is a gift success, we began by talking about from God. People don’t earn talent; failure. we’re born with it. God’s gift to us is the talent we’re born with. Our gift RM: One of my favorite sections of to God and to civilization is what we your book, The Big Gig, is the one do with our gifts and how we serve about dealing with rejection. When other people with our gifts. Have other I was young, I assumed that suc- people been inspired or motivated or cessful people went from one success entertained or blessed or whatever by to the next. But then I found out our gift? Only the courageous will de- that all successful people have had velop their gifts into what they can be, their share of disappointments and because to be great at anything, there failures. is a price—a sacrifice. If you’re willing Zoro: I certainly have. Some of to pay that price, you can make a great them were not my fault, such as mark on the world, and if you are also tours being cancelled or some- humble, you will make an even bigger one not hiring me because I was one because you’ll affect people on a too young to go on the road. But personal level that talent alone doesn’t I always looked at the situation do. to see if I could learn anything from it. Maybe I needed to work RM: At what point can somebody be de- on my reading or on playing odd lusional and pursue something that they times. or that was our main influence, but we’re really don’t have a talent for? Zoro: There’s a quote in my book from Michael less convincing at the music that is foreign You have to look at that on a case- Jordan talking about what it takes to win: to us. Nobody is born being a master at by-case basis. That’s a hard one because “I’ve missed more than 9,000 shots in my every style. You realize that people who sometimes you hear about someone be- career. I’ve lost almost 300 games. Twenty- are great—Michael Jordan, Steve Gadd, coming, say, a successful actor after having six times I’ve been trusted to take the Anthony Hopkins—have a natural level of been rejected time and time again. But they game-winning shot….and missed. I have talent, but the majority of it was developed refused to give up and finally something failed over and over and over again in my through sheer hard work. You wonder why broke. life. And that is why I succeed.” they are great when other people have that I think the best way to assess that is through other people. Sometimes we don’t see what we’re good at or we shortchange “In any business where fame and money are ourselves and think we’re not very good at something. But people around us can some- involved, there are not that many people who times see that we’re really great at something. There is an old proverb that says there is truly want to see you succeed.” wisdom in the multitude of council. So I get advice from lots of people. We all need people we can be accountable to for our goals and visions and dreams. And we need honest people who can tell us, “I know you really want to be a musician,” but cessful yourself. That’s the test of the true them. I need to be me, and the more I em- if you have 20 people in your life telling you spirit of a person. Let’s say your best friend braced that, the freer I became. they don’t see any potential in you, maybe is a drummer, too, and you’re both trying RM: you need to reevaluate your goals. to make it, and he gets his break before you The people I got the best advice from were my There’s a quote in the book from Mark do. He’s got a great gig and you’re working teachers. They truly wanted me to succeed, but Twain where he says, “We are always more at 7-Eleven. Can you genuinely be happy they knew what it takes and weren’t going to let anxious to be distinguished for a talent for your friend when his ship came in and me get away with anything. They let me know which we do not possess, than to be praised yours didn’t? That’s a hard test, and not many my weaknesses, but in an encouraging way. Zoro: for the fifteen which we do possess.” So people pass it. But I find that if you can be Great teachers are worth their weight in you have to figure out, whatam I good at? happy for the success of your friends, eventu- gold. You certainly see that in the world of Sometimes, other people can help you de- ally good things will come to you, too. sports. Why do the world’s greatest athletes termine that. You have to follow the council In this business, there is a strong spirit of still have coaches? You’d think they would of others, but then you have to weigh that in competition and people trying to one-up know how to play football or basketball or with your own heart, because in some cases each other. That’s all a bunch of nonsense, baseball or tennis. But that coach represents those closest to you don’t see your genius. because everyone has his or her own destiny, a mentor relationship. You can’t examine Some successful people tell stories of parents and we’re not all going to prosper and fail yourself from a distance like somebody else who told them, “What are you doing with at the same time. Sometimes we’ll be up can. And you can’t see your own game the that stupid video camera?” They don’t see the when they are down, and down when they way a coach can. Not enough musicians take potential, and then the kid turns out to be are up. That’s just life. But if you want true advantage of that concept of mentoring. All a Steven Spielberg. There is also what I call friendship, it will test your heart like crazy to the great artists—Leonardo da Vinci, Mi- the “curse of familiarity,” which is, the more see if you can be genuinely happy for those chelangelo, all the acclaimed artists—were somebody knows you, the less they see what who are doing well while you’re at the bot- apprentices under masters for many years. you’re capable of because you’re their son or tom, and not let pride and ego frustrate you But in music, so many people think they can brother or friend, so how great could you to the point that you give up. You have to do it on their own. Nobody does it alone. be? Sometimes, people who are two steps guard your heart because there will always To the degree that we give ourselves over to removed can see you better and observe that be people who are better or younger or have the idea of a mentor or teacher, that is the you have a gift for a certain thing. So I sur- more money or whatever, and that’s just the degree that we grow to. But there’s a whole round myself with people whose advice and way of the world. If you let that control you, generation of people who want something wisdom I can solicit, and then at the end of you’ll never find happiness. for nothing without the investment of time, the day I go with my gut instinct. We all have our own song to sing. God money, energy, or even allowing themselves gave us each our own melody—our life. Your to be critiqued by a teacher. But the quickest RM: Other people can certainly give you a perspec- melody might comprise the same 12 notes as way to grow as a musician is through private tive, but you have to pick the right people. Every mine, but the way you put them together and instruction and mentoring. musician knows that people will seemingly come orchestrate them is going to come out com- RM: out of the walls to tell you, “You can’t do that.” pletely different than mine. We must learn I think too many people today think they Zoro: In any business where fame and money to appreciate that each person has his or her can learn everything from books, DVDs, and are involved, there are not that many people own thing to contribute, because that’s what YouTube. Even people who are willing to work who truly want to see you succeed. You can makes the world go ’round: We’re all unique. hard and put in the time don’t see the value in have a lot of friends as long as you are on the I always tell people, be yourself because studying with a teacher at the local music store same level as them. But as soon as you pass everyone else is already taken. The minute when they can learn from Kenny Aronoff or people up, you lose a lot of friends because of you try to be somebody else, you’ve lost the Chad Smith or Peter Erskine through a DVD. jealousy and envy. It’s ruined a lot of friend- uniqueness of you. We’re going to have simi- They don’t realize the importance of feedback. Zoro: ships and relationships in my life because larities to other people. All of us who play I read somewhere that in order to be people are not genuinely happy to see you go jazz are going to play “chang chang-a-lang.” great, every person needs at least three peo- higher. Nothing reveals true friendship more But the way we do it will be individual, and ple outside of their family who speak into than going through hard times and prosper- the more we cultivate what makes us unique, their lives—three mentors. So if you don’t ing. When you go through hard times you the more we will be happy with ourselves even have one, you’re shortchanging your- find out who your friends are; when you and the more we will contribute to the self, because a relationship comes with that. prosper, you find out who your friends are world. We’re going to be influenced by dif- You’re not having a relationship through not. ferent people, but being comfortable in your YouTube or a book. Relationships are how I talked about this in the book: The most own skin makes people want to be around people grow, and how they become what important thing you can have as a human you. I had to come to grips with the fact they become, and how they form their opin- being is the ability to be happy for the suc- that I am different than all the drummers I ions. If you don’t have strong relationships cess of others when you’re not being suc- admire. I respect them, but I don’t need to be with people who are allowed to speak into your life, you will never be what you could who are not particularly known for a specific what’s going to happen. You have ideas be. It doesn’t mean you won’t get good if thing, but they are great all-around players about what you are going to do, but you have you practice all day long on stuff you copped who get lots of gigs. Some of them are not no idea how things are going to pan out. But off of YouTube, but you will not be as well- well known, but they have worked all their you are still better off by having some kind rounded a person as you could be and won’t lives. Maybe they are not as savvy at market- of long-range plan, because you can always reach the potential that you could. No matter ing themselves, or maybe they don’t care adapt it. The future belongs to those who how fast the world moves with the Internet about being famous; they are just happy to can see it before everyone else. So you follow and social networking, you’ll never do away be gigging. So you have to find your road. that intuitive thing inside you that says, “I with the need for personal relationships. That You have to look at it in terms of your artis- can use my gift like this.” still moves at a snail’s pace because it takes tic ambitions and also your career ambitions: In my life, everything I’ve accomplished years to develop friendships and relation- How do you make a living at this? I honestly started off as something that didn’t quite ships. These things don’t get sped up just be- think that if you are the greatest at a par- work out the way I thought it would, but cause you have a high-speed Internet cable. ticular thing, there will always be room for it led to something else. Or in some cases, Relationships and friendships still take time, you. Of course, there is no such thing as “the” there was a long delay before it happened. and they’re what make us truly human. So greatest, but if you become extraordinary at I wanted to do a loop-sample CD library to negate that is to negate humanity itself, a particular thing, there will be room for you several years ago, but none of the companies because that is where you grow—through somewhere at the top. I approached was interested. But some goals personal relationships. We need other people happen when they are supposed to, not nec- in our life in order to climb higher. RM: But you may have to go where that place is. essarily when you want them to. So I didn’t You could be a really great jazz drummer, but if give up on the idea, but I figured the time RM: To be truly great at something you generally there is no active jazz scene in your town, that’s just wasn’t right and I moved on to other have to specialize. But to be successful you often not going to do you much good. In my town, you things. Then one day about seven or eight have to be versatile. How does one find a bal- couldn’t play jazz every night and you couldn’t years later I got a call inviting me to do a ance point between being versatile and being a play in the symphony every night. But if you drum-loop sample CD. So in my case, I had specialist? could do both, you could work more nights. A definite goals, but I couldn’t always predict Zoro: A lot of it is determined by the fact that couple of friends of mine who only wanted to how or when they were going to happen, but you can’t be something that you don’t truly play jazz moved to New York, where they could they eventually all came about. And I was want to be. I’m only a drumset player; I don’t play jazz every night. flexible in the sense of understanding that play anything else in the world of percus- Zoro: There are sacrifices involved. When you you cannot manipulate or control every cir- sion. But as a drumset player I have always move to a new town, you might end up liv- cumstance in life. You go for twenty things, loved all styles: jazz, fusion, funk, rock, and ing in a crummy, hole-in-the-wall apartment and if three of them pan out, you’re doing I’ve played all of that because I love all of while you’re trying to make it. So for each okay. that music, not because I was forcing myself area someone wants to specialize in, there is But you have to have some sense of what to be versatile. Some people fall in love with a different set of circumstances. Every style you’re trying to accomplish. You can’t just a particular style, and that’s great. They may of music has its own lifestyle. There is a life- wander aimlessly. There is a difference -be end up being the baddest dude on the planet style to being a rock musician, a lifestyle to tween being flexible and having no direction in that style. It’s whatever you feel compelled being a Latin musician, a lifestyle to being a whatsoever. You must have a sense of where to do. jazz musician. You have to weigh all of that you want to go, and then if you see the in- If you’re trying to make a profession of and decide if you’re willing to live that life. I dustry changing, you can alter your course a this, you have to look at the market for what tell my students that the younger you are, the little bit, knowing that you can exercise your you’re trying to do. Even if you’re the great- more chances you can take because you have talent in many different ways. PN est at something, is there a market to do more time to bounce back and recover from what you do, or do you need to put in some any failure. But as you get older and take on time learning to be more versatile so that more responsibility with family and kids, you can get more work as you’re climbing now you’re carrying other people with you your way up? Maybe in your town there are when you make those moves. That doesn’t no heavy metal gigs night after night where mean it can’t be done, but it makes it harder. you can make a living just playing that. But there are cocktail gigs and casual gigs, so you RM: Along with being versatile, let’s talk about want to develop your skills in those areas just being flexible. You talk in the book about setting to make yourself employable. So there’s the long-term goals. That’s obviously important, but practical part, and then there’s the artistic it is sometimes said that today’s typical college part, and they have to be reconciled to each grad will change careers eight times, and two of other at some point. But mostly you have to those careers don’t even exist yet. So you need to go with what you feel compelled to do. have a vision of the future, but it can’t be tunnel When I was at Berklee College of Music, vision. I think of someone like Jimmy Bralower, a friend of mine who was a drummer really who planned to be a drummer. Then the whole loved bebop, and that was what he really electronics thing hit in the 1980s, and he went wanted to do. He became a great bebop with that and became a master at it. He could drummer, and a lot of people hired him. Or not have foreseen that when he was in college. you take a guy like Ed Thigpen who had Zoro: It’s important to make plans, because a passion for brushes, and so did Clayton you have to have goals, and a vision, and a Cameron. They both loved that part of the dream to accomplish anything. But at the instrument and took it to unknown heights. same time, you have to remain flexible. It’s At the same time, there are musicians not an exact science where you can predict