. .. -
P ROCEED I NGS
of a
MILITARY COURI' FOR THE
'l'RI.AL OF WAP. CIIDUNALS
held a t
LUNEBURG, GE!~ ,
on
MONDAY, 8 OCTOBER, 1945,
upon the t rial of
JOSEF KRAMER and 44 Others.
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N !I! 11 E T E N 'l' H D A Y.
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Transcript of the Official Short hand Notes.
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1. Pare• I N D _P-- .~· ...... ••• ~ HnJOR \"TIN.vOOD ' S OPENIID SPEiiPli 17 Examin:>d • • • .. . • •• • • • T!G ; ..CCUSED , JOSEF KRiJ.1ER
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. • • • ) }'ih.JOR n m100D' s OPENOO- SPE:roli .. . • • • .. .. . ••• 17 Tffi: .-~ccusm, JOSEF KRiJ.iER Exa.min:>d • • • .. .
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{At 0930 hours the Court reassembles pursuant to adjourrment, the same President, Membero and Judge Advocate being present. )
THE JlJD;E ADVOCA~~! : I want all the accused to pay careful attention to what I run going to say. I run going to assume that you do not know what your rights arc as regards your defence. Thereforet 'on behalf of the Court, I will briefly explain Hha t you may do.
If you wish you can come and take ttn . oo.th and give your evidence to the court. If you do that, you will be treated like aey other witness in the Cabe who has given evidence on ·oath, and you will no doubt be questioned to sec whether your tcstililoey ohould be treated as accurate or not.
If you do not wish to give evidence on oath, you can•make a statement to the court not upon oath. If you do that, your coomonsenso will tell you that as your evidence cannot be tested by cross-examination Wldcr the regulations it will not, of course, carry so much neight as if you swore on oat~
If you do not wish to give evidence on oath you are not obliged to ani, in aey event, you will be allowed to call aey witnesses you like on your behalf, and your learned def ending officers will each have an opportwtl ty ot addressing the court generally in regard to your case. Major Vlinwood, have you and your brother defending officers discussed with tho accused wha.t line they wish to take ?
MAJOR WINWOOD: I have only discussed it with my own clients and I cannot speak for tho others. {All the def ending officers \'Ii.th the l exce~tion of Lt. Jcdrzejowicz indicated to the Court th.1 t they had di&oussed with the accused what course they, the accused, wish~d to adopt. ) THE JUIGE ADVOCATE: Lieutenant Jed.rzc jowicz, would you like to discuss this matter nbVI with the accusc:d, beca\~e it is D\Y duty to ask the accused in turn, either personally or through the defending officers, what they want to do.
LT. JEDRZEJ017ICZ: Vii th the court• s pon11ission I will ask thera nO\'I.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(Lt. Jed.rzejowioz confors with the accused) THE JUOO.E ADVOCATE: {To the Interpreters) Would you please ask each of the accused in turn whether ho or she desires to give evidence as n witness on oath.
(The Interpret ers ask each accused in turn whether he or she desires to eive evidence as a vlitn\,}ss on oa.th, and they all answer in the aff i.nna tivc) • •
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THE JUOOE ADVOOA.TE: The next q...icstion had b...:ttor be 3.nswer ed by the defending officers. .Ma jor V/inwood, on behalf of tho f our accused f or whom you appea r, are you calling any evidence other t han the accused ?
MAJOR WINWOOD: Yes, I am ca lling one witnoss f or the accused Kramer and that is all.
MAJOR MUNRO: I am calling one witness f or Hoesslor and possibly two witnesses for Ehlert.
MAJOR CRANFIELD: I intend t o call a wi t ncss for each of nzy accused.
CAP!'. ROBERTS: I have no witnossco to call f or either of my a ccused.
CAP!'. BRONN: I may call a witness f or the accused Mathes onJ.y.
CAP!'. CO.RB.ALLY: F .)r accused Schrcirer one witness, possibly two; for Wilhelra Dor two witnesses; for Eric Barsch two witnasses; a nd none f or Erich Zoddel.
CAPT. NEAVE: For accused Schlanoivicz one witness, poe::dhly three, plus two affidavits. For the two Forsters I run calling nine witnesses, and for the accused Opitz two.
CAPT. PHILLIPS: I shall be calling a witness in the case of Bothe and possibly in the case of Charlotte Klein.
LT. BOYD: I shall be calling one or two witnesses fo1~ Sauer and Fiest or Lisiewitz.
CAP.r. MUNRO: Possibly a witness f or J ohanne Roth and mne for the other two, Hempel and Hahnel.
LT. JEDRZEJOWICZ: For accused Stanislawo. Staroska poss.ibl.y five or s even witnesses; for accused Anton Polanski, four witnessc~; for accused Helena Kopper, two witnesses; for accused Ostrowski, one witness and one statement; f or accused Burgro.f one wi tnees; and for the accused Aurdzieg, one witness and one statement.
THE JUOOE ADVOCATE: The ob j ect of asking the accused whether or not they are calling witnesses on their behalf is that nonna.11.y the defending officers appearing for those who are ca lling witnesaes arc entitled to mako an opening address. The ~)os i tion is, however, some what canplicat ed by the f act that a defending officer appears for three or four o.ccuaed, and I suggest, sir, that you ;night u.llow a certain ar.1ount of lattitude to the defending officers and pcnllit them to butli$e briet.lj their particular case. · l THE PRESIDENT: Very well; Ma,jor Winwood, will you maJce your opening address. lUJOR WINWOOD: I have the honour to r epr esent four of the accused, namely, J oseph Kramer, Fritz Klein, Pet ~r W~ingo.rtner a nd c;.eorgc Kraft, all of
whom a.re included in both char ges on the ind i~t.mcnt 0 as having been part of the staff of Auachwi.t~ ooncentro.tion crunp a nd Bel.saen concentration ~·
I wish to begin by quoting a short parag.raph' from the Soviet newpspacr Izvestia which reads as f ollows: "The t:rial of the Hitlerlto cr ir.J.nals gm.dU'.llly t\.U"l'lS into a or:i.r.riml case of 1.ocar. :importance, and intt.rmtional bandi ta are b~ginnine t o l ook like ord.i..naa criLrina.ls f:ro1.1 the village of Belson. In two weeks we have not once he~rd i n court t he words ' Hi tleri t c rcgim&' or 'Hi t l cr' s honchlaen •"
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' ~ ';/i thin my l imited oapabili ties I wish to remedy t hat def ect, beoaus it is the very f oundati o n of K.remer' s oase that he was a member of 1 Ii the Nat nal Socialist party, and it wns the No.ti ona.l Socio.list regime which was in power in the country at the tililc when these alleged crir11es took place~'> Kramer is a me111ber of the National Socio.list Pa rty and he was, I only a few days before the trial, o. member of the SS. He was also a cember of the Waffen SS and as such a part of the anned f orces of Genna.DY• In addition to that, Kram.er is a Gennan, and I would ask the court when the time arrives f or than t o find their way thr )U @'l the maze of evidence before thcra t o gr asp that phrase: Krr.."Iler is a Gormnn, in the sruac wey as Ariadne when she vras mn.kinc her way t~ugh the l abyrinth. National Soei~li SI:l stcrted ~s the doctrine of a party, ond it i s ba sed fundrunentcll.Y on t he so-cnll ed "Fuhrer" principle which was that t he . person ct the t Op gave t he orders nnd the person nt t he bottom obeyed t hose orders, ruld obeyed t hem not bccnuse they were orders, but boco.use t hey come from the t ::>p. ~ational soeiali s.'ll demanded ~ t hings: i mplicit ) obedience nnd trust on the part of the per son ce.rryi ng out the ordery If I :nay toke the tiJ:ie of tho c ourt f or o. fow minutes to moko a few quot ations, I should like t o mention that in the first d£.ys of tho wnr, Rudolph Hoss, who wo.s the mouthpiece of Hitler o.t the tir.le, said t his: With pride we scy there is one Geman f nr above criticism. Tho.t i s the Fuhrer; end that arises from the f act t hat we nll feel and know that he i s nlweys right and tha.t he always vrill bo rl.ght ~ n t ho uncritical obedi ence t o his col1'rlll1ril which do not .:-niso the question of wherefor. •:n t he i.111pllcit currying out of his cor.cnand. lies the sheet anchor of National Socialism.
At tho National Socialist p nrty Conference in Nurernburg in 1934 Alfred Rosenburg - vrho has been described as the "High Priest" of National Socinlis::l, said: Obedience, Loyalty, Co:.irndeship and soldi erly courc.ge, aro the f our essent inls of c true re31rne, and the greatest of these is Obedience.
Robert Ley, who was in chL\rge of Gennan l nbour, said: It is obedience which has produced everything in t he world what i s r ec.llY eroe.t. It i s obedience which hos carried f orwnrd humo.i-i institutions fror.l generation t o generation. The Fuhrer hi.""lSelf, in tho last pro-ty congress bef ore the wrir . when he wcs spocl<: ing, not to t he main body of National Socia.list s but t o e. select f ew includine mony me:mbers of tho SS, so.id: I s hP.11 s trive with all my power t o bring bnck Gennn.n.Y t o her riehtful place, of which she we.s rl'.ped by t he dictator Vor so.ille. To do this I must demand of all of you men and women, sol diur Md SS mrul, i::iplici t obe~ene e t o !DY' orders. Tho n0xt quot o.tion I s hould l ike to rend to the court is tho out h which nll ~ne~nbers of tho SS t ook o.nd which t he accused, Joseph Kro..'nor , t ook on the d.D.y Hitl er first becnr!\O Chn.ncellor and President of the Roioh. It is: "I swon.r to you, hdolf Hitler, o.s Fuhrer and Cho.nceUor of t ho Reich, f~ith ond s t ondfas tnoss. I pledge to you ond to those t o when you entrust your order s unwav ering obedience '.lnto deat h. So help !Ile; God". 'Dhe.t we s ,~ o.s I s~, t he doctrine of the purty. That Party p roducoc1 r. progr r.m1'!'.C which, vri t h the uni ty of Nntiontl So eiD.lism end t he Gcmnn Stc>.tc, bec rune part of Gcmon !Aw, ond i s found at t he beginning of the Officinl Ger.nan Gesgtz Book. Pc.ro.grnph 4 s tt:>.tcs that c. citizen can only be ono who is c. me:nbcr of the Ro.cc, nnd a nembcr of the Race cr.n only be ono wh:> is of Ge~ bl ood. No Jew c ~n be n !!\ember of t he Race...... ,,_ .
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Those Vlho ore not citizens of tho Stt'.t o c:m only r unmin in Ger.!le.ny c.s strl'.l'l[;ers i n n s trv.ngc l nnd. The State t ul In 1933 the Nnzi Pcrty hc c~..:;i e the Germon eovcrment, :l.nd I wish to quoto t\ few of the Gol:'!:lcn lmvs which wer e e na.ctcd since t hot de.te; for it is under those l aws thnt Gerr.w.ns had t o !!lOdel their lives. In the sDl'!lo WS¥ as Englishmen o.rc:: bound by English d oncs tic l ow the Ger.':lc.n i:) b.)und by Geme..11 l o.w, but I wish in no W!)~ to trcspnss on natters of Internationo.l Law becc.uso sor.ieonc of f ar more weight than qy s-.;lf crui speak on thnt here aftor, The LaVI of the 24th March 1933 re0.cls: "The ln.w for t he removo.l of distress from peopl e and Reich" - The Reichs t ng hns agreed t o tho following lo.w. Article ( 2) ''No connection with the Weil:::k'.lr c onstitution". "The l aws decided by tho Reich governr.ient can dovil'.te fro:n the constitution insofar as they do not disturb the existence of the Reichsto.e or the rights of the President of the Reich". On the 1st December 1933 there wa s passed the lo.w on which the whole No.tiono.l Socinlist system since thnt clnte hns been based, The law of tho consoli dntion of the unity of t he Party end State. The :.iaterial part is ns follows : After the victory of the Nationo.l Socialist revolution the Ger.-:tc.n Worker' s Party becomes the bearer of the German id ea of State, and with the Stnto i s inseparably united. "Leo.der of tho party Chanoe l lezy~ To assure closest co- operati on between offices of the 1'£lrty With the public authorities the deputy of the F\lhrer is 1:iade metlber of the Reich Govornrnent. The ~ ost importnnt pc.rngrnph: "Party ani S. A. Jurisdiction" r eads a s f'ollows: Mcr.fuers of the National Socialist Party ~.nd the SA Md oreanisntions included therein will have put upon the~ increc.sed a.utics with regard to tho Fuhrer, people, nnd State; and the Fuhrer can apply those conditions to members of th~t or gnniso.tion of tho Po.rty. I subnit thl\t that paro.gr~ph puts lnombor s of the National Socil\list PD.rty above the German law. When tho National Socialist Govcrl'l'!lent had been in povrer for a yeo.r, President Hindenburg died, o.nd on 1st August 1934 a l aw was passed as follows: The office of the Reich President i s combined with that of tho Reich Chancellor. Followlne on this the former duties of Reich President devolves on tho Fuhrer o.nd Reich Chancellor, Adolf Hitler. He c.ppoints his deputy. This l nvt co;;ies into f orce f'ro:n the moment of tho departure of Vice-President Hindenburg from this mortal life. So you have the Natiorutl Socio.lis t Govt:rn."lent of Gen"X\ey with Adolf Hitler at the top, and the Po.rty menbers and or eruiisa tion placed above Ger.no.n l aw. It goos further. In 1934 tho Fuhrer boca"llC the lo.w. Two mc:nbers of the SS killed a man in Brcslau and they wer e charged vri t h murder under the ordino.ry domes tic lc.vr. Hitler himself sent n telegram congratulating t ho:.n on what they had done o.nd the cl,argc was dropped. The Court will doubtlos::; rer:i.c ~b cr t he f ru:ious 30th June when !!llU'\Y roorribers of the No.zi Party v1ere liquidntcd nnd Hitlcr himself in n broad- . c o.st s aid: "I run the ln.V1", and t ook upon hims elf the right of doing what he liked in the vro:y of legal notion. Ever since the begin:ling of the No. zi Po.rty one of the main plo. nks in their progr amne hD.s bcon nnti Juclnism. Ther e wns no plnc c for the Jews in the conception of Nntionnl Socinli a~ , ~nd the liquidntion of t he Jews in GelT.'.ncy wos r. gro.dunl pr ocess. In the first plo.ce it was done by ordinnry Ger.':lo.n l aw, the process being t o outlnw the J eVls , and then by a l aw passed on t ho 15t h Dccc"'!lber 1935 at Nurember g, under which o. :nnss of edicts wer e issued putting t he J~1 s outs i de t he ordinary pl'.l o. 5. ,- , .., ., ... - ..... - ·- .,,,,- ...... There is no ~1ced co :50 into th:t!nont". The la.w of the 21{.th Nove1.1ber 193 3 is the sM.lO law applied to h o.bi tuo.l ori.'l'"linnl s of which wo hnvo also henrd. Those lo.ws r~pplicd t a Gr eeter GeI!:VU\Y o.s it wr.s n.t tho ti.!:lc. GOlT.lnl\Y, wh G. . . r . -.. ..,, Go ing fro!". tho Hntiono.l Socitilist system t o so~e of the f c{'.tures th ~'- t C l'.:'!O out of t lw.t syst em, I should like firs t of nll t o nention briefly so::le thin-· about concl-ntrotion cru"'lpS. ~ricentrUtion :"-"'!? is not fr Ger.non co~ight, The first conccntr.:-.tion cc.np of !:lOdcrn t:i!.1os wo.s set up by Bri tish o.ut hori ties duri~g t he South ~frican wo.r t o keep u.~desirable clc::nents nwny until the fiehtin£, W['..S over. The :.~ost !".!odcrn concentr:-.tion c Pnp was set up ... y the British in Egypt in order to keep out of the r oe.ch of the orc1in~ry people unclesirc.blc clements fro:n Grecco. The object of the Ger.::i..".Jl conqcntrntioa C'1.':Tp wr-.s t o sccrcgc.tc tho undcsir:-.blc ele.-.ients, ond tho most undesirable cl e!".'ICnt , from tho Gcr:rion point of view, wes the Jaw. As rE:g£-.r ds those concontrt'.tion Cl\."1?B , there were lc.rr,o nu:~bers of peopl e housed i n thc:n nnd it is a f act thct they were very overcr~lldod. Tho eu~rds wore very s::lnll Md t he administrative stuff was even sr.lnller. in r>I"OPOrtion. The result wc.c th~t it wns le~ to tho internees t o do th(; ordinary, whet night be c--.llcd, "interior econo::w" of the Ct'::lp, c.nd t rot, t he c )urt w:i 11 lmow, is the principle appl ied to prisoner of wc:r ca.":lps and interrn~<:: CD..'ilp.CJ. The t y-pe of internee who Cf'..ne t o those concentr c.tion CC.'llpS \'tf'.s c v ery low type, l'.nd I woulc co so f nr l'.s to sey th,.".t by t he tbe we 3ot t o Auschwitz l'.nd :Bel son, t he vnst !'le.jori ty of the inhabito.nts of the conccntr.:>.tion C~'npS wer e the dre.:;s. of t he Ghettoes of midclle Europe. There were l)OO?l e wb:i hnd v 0ry little idea about how t o behnvc in their -::>rdincry cL-U.Jy life, U-"1d t hey ho.d very l ittle i dea. of doing wtu... t thc.Y ·.1r.; r c told, c.nd t ho control -::>f those internees was a er 6A f ' ... r " '\ t! .A:; ·i.:u: !-..!a · ,_ · ti.0 \/hol e concentration cam 1s was Re iohsfuhrer x AI Hinmler. he was the head of the whol e of the c onc ~ntration camos and he dele;;;otcd tre Concentration Canp D~partment t o a i1e rson call ed Obergruppon fuh.ror Pohl - 61' whom you have also hoard - arrl ho hel d tho position of I n a~J uctor Goneral of oonoontration c an!Ps ana was r c :;ponsibl o for all concentration camps i n tho whol e of Grou ter Gar many. Umor him wo havo a Grupponfuhror Glucl<:s , orrl ho it was who was tho \ ' !administration office r for all concontrotion camps. Ho hod to de al with .all porsorm:ll, wi th transport, with which internoss \1ont to which c~ and 'that manmr of thing, and oo had s ub-dopart roonts. Ho had f ive sub-departront s ~ oallod D.1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. D.1. - I only v1ont to mention two of t horn - v(os under tho charge at the boginnint;; of o poraon called Hocss. That wa s the 8 ; office; which dealt with porsonno l. With I'()gard to tro S.S., t ho y began by bc i11g on e lite bodyguard for Hitler and t hey eradunlly gaw into what bocomo tho roost advanced olomont on:l tha Jl'()st th:>b oueh- going Nazi port of tho whole system. In Ge ~many the soost non-Nazi port of tho whol e cooq:>any was tro Wohrmaoht, and it was only just at tho vory beginni ng of the war that tho WohDnaoht becam3 Nazics arrl you will honr f rom Krruror that there was no l ovo lost between tho s. S. and tho Army. Tho Wehnnaoht lookod nt the S. s. ns upstarts, espocially when thoy bocarro part of t ho Germany Army . Tho Vfohrrnooht hovo al ways been considorod by their onomi os, by tho British and Amorioans, as soldiers, am in t he sarro way t hoy oonaidorod themselves soldiers i that is the ordinary people who wore fightine on tho othor side. But it i s wall knovm what tho British thou@lt of tho s. S. and you may bu sure thnt the Wohrmacht know whot tho British ~hou ,~ ht of tho S. S. I n t he post it has boon difficult for tho s. s. ~o got oo- opurati on from t hv \'./ohrmacht; hem 1Tlloh' mo?'() diffioult it muzt have bJon i n tho l ast d nys whon Gerrmny' s defeat . was assurod. (Thoru is anoth;r Nazi dopartnYJnt which p .Jriroatus the c oncentration c~ , ond of which littl e has boon hoard . 'i/o have just heard mention of tho c I Po li~.;icalDo:)a r tmont.) We have oo a rd it Monti orod twice , o~c atAu.acl?Hitz on:l ,once at Belson. (Thi s political dopartm.mt was nothing more or less than tho ~sta~, ond its job W813 primarily to koop o check on the intornuos, to chock thoir documents, soo who thoy wore , anl docido whcr o they s hould go. The ir sooorrl duty wa s to watch tho s. S. rui.cl see that the s. s. carried ' l out the orders., Tho political doportmo nt was rot?Onsibl e to w10 people, rosponsiblc to You thus hove 1 in each c oroontration oamp, ce rtain i nd ividuals ·Who wuro rot part of tho stllf'f, who wo r o thoro to c arry out those duties and to c arry 0ut any extra duties that thoy mi ght be e ivon di1'1ct from tho Head Office in Berlin, om ynu will later hear of on incident of an order caning from that dopartmont straight t o tho politi cal To turn mw from tho c o~ontrat i on camp in gcncr ol t o concentration camps in particular. Auschv1itz was tho bigeust c oncontration camp i n too wholo of Greater Germany. We hnvc hoaro t hat it ,.,as a colledtion of oeq>s which w&a centred r ound am c ont rolled by AusolT11itz camp No . 1, am tho Commerrlant et Ausolwdtz No . 1 "AS t ho Garrison Comr11nnde r of tlP wholo area. Y0u will hcnr from oro of tho sub-c onrnandonts at Ausclwi tz , Josof Kro100 r, of the auth0ri ty which Comp N0 . 1 hod ovc r tho other comps . \'Thon they stortod, f r om t ho Quar torrnast o r' s p0int of view, cvurythine wos dom __._ .,....,...--~:! . \ •••• .....- - · ..~- --~~- . 1 from AuschHitz No . 1 camp , f ood , clothi ng, otorcs , transport, instructi ons for v10rki0g parties. Th-3ru was olso soncthil\'; olse t hat was dono d irect from No . 1, and that is, instructi ons with rc3ar d t o this gas chumbor. I shall pr oduoo bofor o y0u the original tologrrun f r om the offioo in Bo rlin appoi nting Hoo ss aa Commorilant of Auschwitz No . 1 for tho particular purposes of carrying out the duties with regard to tho g os ohambor. You will hoer fr0m Kron-e r thot whon ho arrived ut Auschwitz that order was pnsaod on t o him am oo was t ol d that tho gos ohrunbu r wos not hing t o do with him. I t is quite t r uo - ard the Prosecution havo orrl no doubt will moko a l ot of t ho fact - t ha t tho p,os c hombor was situated in Borkenau or Auschwitz Nn . 2 , '>f which Krnmor wad at that timo Co1rannrrlcmt. That is true , nnd it obvious l y onnmt be don iod , but if I mi ght t ake tho libe rty of dr nwi nr, an anol ogy from a British milit Dr y p0int of vic.ru , i t mip,ht be tha t Auschwitz can be compared with Briga.clo .Arco, in which thO Brigade Corrunnndor is tho euprcro authority. lb i s in tho ::iarro positi on as tho C0mmandant of Ausclwitz No . 1, arx1 he has in his turn allocated v arious areas t o Battnlions. In onu of those Batt al i on oroas thoro is a prison, and orders for that prison arc unr\or the Brigade Comman1or himsel f . Ho may dologato to the Battalion Comma rx1or tho duty of guardil\11 that prison, of foed i ne that prison and any othor duties ho likos , but s ubject t o duties which ho has delcga;tod , supposi ng he sends o certain n.unbor of pooplo c a11n to tho pri s on with a writton order that thoy should be oxocutod , who is r esponsi bl e for oxc outi~ trom ? Tho :aattalion Comr11anclor \"till oorry out his ordors. Con i t bo saiu that tho Battalion Oommonde r is rosponsibl o for the execution? Now to return to tho gas chru·11bor. I t existod, thore is no question about it. Thare is ve ry little qoostion about its purpose, its purpose boi ng t ..., r emove from Germany that pa.rt nf the popul ation which h~ no p nrt in G-Ormon life . The way this Was dono, wo ho.vo ho ard from suvoral wi tnosaos, vms by eolootiona, selections which t ook plncc at tho station whon the transports arrived, am we hnvo hoard also of ao lootions which t ock place late r on inside tho camp . Thos o soloction.s woro or dorod by H~ess 8nl l"tor by tho Commanda:r:it who relieved him. They we r e presided over - am thi s i s tho Dofc nco ' s li?YJ - inva riably by a dootor. All doctors in l.uaohwitz wuro under tho d irect c ontrol of Auschwitz No . 1 • Tho head ~ootor anJ all the other doctors livod in Auschwitz No . 1 , and all hosp i ta ls in t hose ares an1 all d oot'1rs , nnd evorything conrootod with tho ho~ ito ls, was d iroctl y undur AuschNitz No. 1 • Prosont at tho so solections wo r o ce rta in S . J . pooplc. Troro \'.() r e l a rgo numbers of tronsports c oming i n , and it is quito o bvious tha t a cortain amount of control v,:as nucdo I t so ha91JC ned that those transporto oomo in t o J3o r konau. They oarno into Borkonau, Auschwitz No . 2 , booousc: in that cnnp was s ituated tho gas chamber. That was a misfortune:: f' or Kr amor, bocousc he hold that j ob, was Comman::lant of that part, a nd os Cnnvnando.nt ho will te 11 you he rocoivol1 instruotions from Hocss that ho was rvspons iblo for l e'l'I anl order on t ho arrival of tho transpor t s and f or tho c rmtr ol dur i nt: tho sol eot ions . Thero hove b"'cn allop,ations o r~a ire t Kr amvr ond e.goinst various othor puop lo bcln nz i~ to t ho camp that +,hoy tock an active part in troso solootiom, am thoro havo boon allor, nti ons that t hoy thomsolvvs ootually ohos <.: victims f or the ,-;os chambor . Kromer will toll Y"U t hot ho novur oroo choso a v ict im for t he gas chombc r . He will toll you thot ho t ook no octivo - if by 11 nctivo" is m:::ant hel ping - part in c h::i ~sing p..:oplo for tho ens c hamber. Ho will toll ynu that n physioal s oloeti"n wos dono by doctor s t o doc i do which 1'6oplo wore a. _...... ' . .. -·- or.poblu of working f or the Garmon Rc, ioh , e.n: t het wnuld '1nly be doni by doctors. Thore ore many porsr:mal ailo r~ ntio ns against Kr oner f or persnnd acts of ill-troatmimt at .~uschwitz, b" th fr.,m " rnl stntoments una i n these affidavits, ancl he v1ill hi mself t oll ynu - anl I do mt propose t o nntioipo.to thorn - whet he has to say o.uout thvm. ThO Jn6st. i:mI?ortent ono , ~hi:oh pad .o ··., oonrootion with this [;.:ls chambor , wo.s tho revolt of the 7th October, 1944, when crematorium Ho . 1 v10.s bur nou arrl whon it nppearca theru was go in~ : to bo what might bo uesoribcu as a mutiny in tho c omp . J.ocord i nc: to Dr. Borool, whom Y/(; have heard in C1J urt. thoro wos a wholosale cxecutirm by tho S. S . of n l ar ge n\ll?\bcr of inte rnees who ho.d boon wr>rking in the gas chombcr, one! it is nllcgd that Kromer was p resont , althoueh I do not think it ·:ras l'\lleg0d in so inony wor ds t hat he \tas rcs?onsiblo for tho oxooution. w~~ - Kramcr will tell you thnt • ''Cd aor11C body c l se1\pr0scnt thoro , and that ·Has the Conrnarrlant of fiusoh.vitz 1'!0 . 1, u man by the narnc of iiauptsturmfuhl'Cr Bac: r, who was thC;ro whon Kro.mor nctually nl•rivoe at th~ scene of tho oxooution, and Krarnor will tell you ,-,hat :3 n· ~r soiu t o him on his ar r ival. It YTill not havo oscopod tho notice of tho Court that Kromor hos m:>.c'.o two statements, in which thoro is what I rni · ~ht call a hiatus. In his f irst statement he sai d that ho kna11 nothin..~ 01' tho go.s ch::inbur aril that ovor ythinc nbout it is untrU) from boGinnine t o end . In his socorrl statom:mt ho eivos an aooount of t he ~as chombor, of the organisation unde r Hoess , M d hu mokos no bonos obout it. He r o a5ain, I do not interd t o anticipate his reason, but he will givo you a r eason which, to a Gorman nnl to a Nati onal Sociolist, is som>thi ne boyoi¥:l mnkil18 an admission to a British off icor • .Arothor f eature of .tt.uschvtitz comp of which ,,.,o have hcore n l ot aro those appals. Krame r him.self v1os o Co1M1!lndant ond as such did not tako part in J·ippols. He will tell you thDt on appal is on e ssontinl pnrt of runnine any oamp of any kind . If you hevo i-;ot t o count tho puopl e you hove got t o ge t thorn thorc orrl soc how many thoro a ro. We have hoar-:1 c ountl ess allegati ons of ill- trootm:mt arrl beatings. Krant:: r will tell you that os ho wont up and down the camp he n .... vor a u: hi.maolf s oc any S.S. man or Kapo indiscrimirotcly bcetin[ or ill-truatinJ ony of t~ intormos. He will toll you that ho nover s aw irombors of t nc S . S. oit~ r men or worren go about carry i1~ sticks, rubber tr~hoons , or any of t~ articles of t oilturo of which vN havo hoard so much. He nill tell you that the s. S . mun and S . s. v1orn0n woro author ised at Auschwitz to carry p istols as part of their uniform, onJ in vimv of tho fact that they vrorc so f ...,'V/ in c omparison with so many int<::rnous , it was self- p rotection. You have ulso hoard of cxp.;r i m:mts of various kinds which t ook place at Auschvtitz , sterilisation, injections anJ 3ll k i rils of thi ngs . But Krarrvr was Commandant of Bol•konau, o.n(1 f r om a vury rclioblc ,·1itncss f=>r the P r osocution, Binko , ·.10 hJorcJ thorc " ore no expe riments c a rried out thoro . v;.., have heard there "itor o oxp0r:U11onts a.t .~usc lT.vi tz orrl t here is no doubt cxp0 i.·im:;nts were ca rried out un:~..: r t he ac~ is of t he hcac.1 doctor of Auschwi tz. Kraner will toll y::iu ho hoarJ of t he oxporimohts but Yll.~t the details wore o.nd wl"t\t happenc'.l wj.th them he •Joos not kmw. It i s not his province and ro is mt c 0rPe rrcd nith it. There is one thine m0r c I woul d like t 0 say about .A.uschwi tz. h,uschwitz was a camp which must ha.VO boon l oathed by all in~rncos who had tho misfortune t o go the~ , It -;1as also l oathed by S . s. man who had a nythine t o do with co~ontratio n camp lif o . Auschwitz was an is0lotod villago in n 9. hos tilo c')untr y in tho Of' l d0st port nf Euro:ptJ . It was a l ~ng woy f i• om their hotrus arrl it htrl - oncl it wos woll known in Germany amonc tho pooplo who should have kno'm - that in ,.usch,1itz there woro thvno build b igs with tho tall chimooys. Kramer will toll you himself t hat \/hon ho f irst hoard ho was eoing to Auschwitz he trio Evuntually his wish ClllllO t r ue e.m ho le: ft .. ~usch\li tz and ho wont a lcnr, wey across Germany until ho conic t o o littl e, villa.30 in NcTth Wost Go~any called Dolson. In tho sec ond hDlf of April this year tho word "Be lson" echoed round tho vr,..rld an.J bcca.mo pai:t of thO v ocabulary of most l'llltions. It hos boon doscribod s omowhut t heatrically as "Tho tlorst Holl on e arth" , orrl vrhon Bri gadier Huehos arr ivod at tho oamp an:'! contacted tho Oorronond ant, Kr.::imor, ho told us that Krairor was unoshruned . Why 'ltas Kromor uneshamod ? fu will toll you hO was unosha.JOOd because ho had carri ed out his order s as a German rux1 that ho had do~ all that ho c ould i n tho circumstoncos. 'ilo have had throo p i ctures of Bolsen. \'le have had a picture of what it was like on the 15th iLp rq, 1945, from vory high up British med i cal officers arrl othel' British ofricors, und i n £;Cmurol tlPro is no disputo With rogard t o tho conditions. lie have hod a p icture from the Br i tish inmate of t ho camp, Mr . Dru illoneo of whot it was liko in tho last fow doys at Belson, and agl\in in pr iroiplc there is no dispute about that- \7o havo hl\ I n order to dooido if Krorror has dom all that he coul d in tho oirounstoncos, tho Court must know , first of all, what the circumstnnc;;s v1o ro when Kromor arrived , ond hovo a p i cture of tho train of events from that ti.nn until tho l i be r ation of the camp . I think it is quite cloar from the ovidcnoo we rove hoard that thoro was a clot oriorati on of oonuitions , and I think it is also true from v1hat wo havu hoor Kramer hes said in his statement, and he will tell you in ovic.1onco, t hat on t h.::; 30th Novembe r ho paid o visit t o the ~ c Hll wos also tol d that Dolson was t o bc;oo~ a Krariccnlo.isor, o camp f or sick poopl o of all tho other c ~ ncontrotion camps in North West Germany. Ho was mt told that thousa1Y:1s w0uld be c om i rl£~ pourinr; in from tm Eastern part of Germany as the Russians u On tho 1st Docombor ho orrivcJ at Delson and nn the noxt cloy, tho 2rrJ Docornbe r ho wrote e l ottor Vlhi c.h I shall riut boforo tho C )Urt lntor, to his forme r chief at Auschwitz , in which he doscribocl wha t :1e lson was like . Tho comp wns composed uf countless s mall compounds inhobi t eted by difforont typos 0f Jows. A!1pnl'ontly thor o aro va rious se ts of Jews nncl soro:i woro yellow stars, anr1 som:i wore something olso. They wore all kept soparoto orrl ho vill tell you it \/'1S liko a Ghetto . 10 . .. ,..- r ~ och scporntc c ompound ·;;os un!or s ~mu so~1'l r nto -- r0onisotion. Som::l woriJ directly unc.lcr the concontration cemp Do partmmt ct Oroni onburi:; ; cc rtai n sections wuro unec:r tho G o st a~Jo ; cortoi n svctions were unJc r the German For e i s n Oi'i'ico , ancJ certain unlcr tho G There •;,ra s no division at all int0 natinnalitios. Th1J ro v10rc thr oe . In his statoucnt Kr3rner says t horo v1oro about 15, 000 there . I shall hand to tho C0urt tho actual handi 113- over certificate which Kremer '1as h3ndod an) which c ivos the nunbor as 15, 257 . J\r:llm.: this 1 5, 000 ctld there VTOro already a oortain number of sick people \fho hnd nrrivc..2 f r om c0nccntration camps . Thero hnvo been JnD.nY nllcgatioM against Krome r thct ho o id nothi ne about various kims of things , f ol')d , bNad , shelte r, sanitation, water orx:1 a nwnbor of thi ngs . :Jof or o· dealing wi th those porticul ar items, I woul d l ike to draw t o t.00 attention of the C0urt the calcm:l ar 0f events ''hi ch happened from tho tirrc KraJOOr ti)ok over t " tho ti.mo tho J ritish t n"'k over . On tho 2nd Decombor, Krnrrcr orrivotl , ."Lt tre end of that month o m.unbor of t hose Jows, 2 000 otld, woro in fact uzohun[;ed , were ovacur:tod from 1 the cronp and wont sorrowhcr o clso . In .Januory Kr omer t ook over the camp mxt door, which hac been a Russian pr isoner of v1ar camp , an1 which he turrtJd into what wo knovr now as tho women' s canpounu . In Januar y the first transports bogan orri.Vl.118 • It Yrcs abnut tho mi r:~d lo of J anuar y when Dr. Lollingo , on tho instructions of Gru~)pc nf'uhror Gluoks, arrived ot ::Jclscn t o hovo o l ook and sec if Krarror Y1as oarryin_• out the orders oo ha I n February spottuu f(Jllor br <'ko out, al"ld Kr cm0r clos ed trX} C D.11\) an:l inf orr;"10d ~3c rlin . ::Jorlin rcplio 1~ : "Fuvor or no fever , J olson remains open" . Th.. stat.:; c-f effairs at tho ond of Fcbruory was, to say the l east r.f it, worrying Kramer, on:l on tho 1st March .00 mo·lo a dotoilod ·,;1 ritt,cn l'Cport t o :'lc rlin on the: s ituati on. 1 I sh,ml c1 1 ikc to say e wor d m• t wo obout this r0port. \Thon I was first detailed f or thi s job I rcacl K1·oroor ' s stntuioont am I noticed he had mo.do va rious reports or ,·rritten vario us 1-.:tters t o his superior authority, s~ I irnrrcuiatoly asked tho p<1•1ors that v1oro in charge at the timo , 43rd Division, f or copies, if any, of o.11 l etters o.m documents writt en by or roooived by Kramer while ho \"tas at Dolson. I }iavo had nothing at all. A f ortnicht ago I aod ressed a note t o tho Prosecution oskine ar,ein f or eny copies of any lette rs, ond I hov0 not hnd any. This l ott er exists , an"! tho orig i nal oxists in 21 ~rmy Grou~ ---- COLONEL ~CKHOU SE: I do not kmw if my f rioncl hos any right t o s ay thnt unl oss ho is goi ng t o pr ove it ox is ta.· · ~I ' t.r,:..JOR \'lIN\!OOD: I have 1l sli£:}1t o~v ontngo over t ho :'r r sec ution ---- COLONEL ~3ACKHOUSE : I think if my f riend i s ollo(rinj thnt this l cttcr cxists an,J is hc l ~ by 21 J.:rmy Gr oup , ho shrm l rl toll n-c whc• M S it an.H ·;: :-u l<~ go t it her o . 11 • ' . ~ ...... ~ .... E.JOR · ·:w.~oon: I havo on ar1 vantaf'l: ovor thu I'Ms ccution. I havo in f act o oopy ,.,f this l etter arrl h ovo s~cn u i)hotostot .c0py and havo mar! o a C'">P Y of that phc t ostat copy. Tho photostat copy i s hel d by -:me of our .Ulios in tho South 0f Gormany, ond it is rml y by luok that I hepporod t ,.., s oo it. Thu tra nslation is ma· ~ c by a l ri tish officer and i s a ttached t o tho photostat c opy. On that letter thorc is a 21 Army Group rofororco J'i1CE(E) DE2( 21 A.G.) ORG.4, £\nO tho transl ation is mado by a Major D. A.Goddon of tm JuJec Advocate Genoral' s ~)ranch, 21 Army Grnup. OOWNEL :J.nCKIDUSE: Ho is not o irombcr nf the Ju1Jge Advocate General' s Office . Mi.JOR 'i1'INi/OOD: ~'hat is v1hf\t it says r·n tho lotter. This l etter is tho very korool of KrarnJ r' s defence , because it is written not ot tho bcGi nnilv: or at hO was tho orrl 1 but in the rnir1dle of his j_)Oriod os Conmandant when responsible f or the well bo i !lfl of tho internees of tho ceJnp. I feel very str oneJ.y that this l etter was mt pr oduced k roo , because it h:ls beon i n the hnrils - I do not say of tro Prosecution - but of tho :Jritish authoritios who wore in choreo of this illV'estieation, and on whom t hor o is o duty not only t 0 put bef ore tho Court the documents ,.,hich tend t "' prrNC the criJrc of tho accused , but also all dooumonts apportai ninc to tho matter in harrl . COWNEL J..lCKHOUSE: I think this is a propor time :it which I can intorvc~, booauso this is a 11.ofinite alloeation ar;o ins't tho Prosocuti on. 11NJOR WI:M"/OOD: Not ~n inst tho Pros<.cution --- - COWNEL 31\CKHOUSE: A::.;ainst tho .rl.rmy authoritios , then. Th:> Dritish Har Crimes Exec utive, to which my frionc.1 rofors, is no part of 21 l.xmy Group. Hojor Godden is not on tho staff of tho :1ritish 'Jo.r Crimes Executive, nor is he on the staff of the Judge Advocate General. British War Crimes Executive aro tho porscns concerned with tho major War Criminals case. I know pretty well who Major Godden is, but ho is not part of the staff of 21 Army Group or tho Ju1ge Advocate G()noral. This r ef oronco is quite obviously a British War Crimes Exocutivo roferorco, rot one of tho Jooao Advocate Genoral. Had that rof oroncc been supplied to JOO at any t irno I would havo done my bost to obtain it-:>f.rom the J ritis h 1if.>. r Crimes Exocutivo. I have rover boon supplied with trot reference . It has ncvor boon suggost od until today t hat there was any lotter I was t r ying to ke:op from him or anybody o lso nas trying to keep. I cannot help the Defence if they Yrill not ask for things . If they will coma and ask for what tho y want, as I think Major Cranf i old will toll you, I will do my best. Unles s thoy oome ond ask troy will not get it, and it is quit a wrong to got up new, at this sta00, and make o.ny allegati on of that kin::l. MAJOR WIN\VOOD : I should like to say I mnko no allegation at all against tho Prosooution. COW NEL IlACKHOUSE: The allegation has boon mado against 21 Army Group authorities, and it should not hav o boon mado . I do not know ,.,hcthor I can eat in touch with Ua jor Gcxldon, who is in Washington, but I can probably got in touch with the office which ho did r oprcsent, ond if thoy havo tho letter I hove no doubt it can bo obtained . }(AJOR WINVfOOD: The only reoson I s'li.d tro lotter had been in the hands of 21 Army Group Yins that tho rcforer¥Jo inoluclod " 21 i~ . G . " . I \/BS not interested, as I had a copy of the lett er, but I cJ itl f ool I shoul d have had that earlie r on i n tho coso . - We ,;-ill l oovc that l ett e r sntl coroo back to it l ater . / Dur i11[; tho ~ month of t.."a rcn transports bcean orrivil1B in ovor increasi ng numbers , and tonards the end of ~. .a rch GrupponfulU'or Pohl himself carre down to Bolson. Wh.::tbi:.:r r..u carrc in answer t o Krame r's l ott e r or v1hethor he caroo to hove a look rouna is not qui to cloar, but ~hat is clear - and it is cl ear from tho 12. . ' f • • ovidcnce of Dr. Loo - i s that h0 JOt a vory t_;ood idea of Y1hat 3olscn was like and a ve ry good idoa of what tho worst part of Dolsen \7as like . Pohl wo nt book to Oranie nbm•g arrl that is all we kno.ir of him./ @n April 15th J3Clscn was liborotod . Kramer, as Commandant, i s right in b~ ing held responsi bl e for the gonornl administration of tho COJll!J, and ho has no intention whatov0r of shif ting thot burden on to nnybody olsc . Ono of the most importont things whon you arc l ooking aftor intornoc s is to food them, and Krarror will toll you thot v1hcn he ar:.·ivcd at Bolson ho was told that focd f'or tho vtintor for 15, 000 int<.: rnc.:cs had boon indented for , that part of that food, only a small part , h.~d actuolly arrived on the spot. Ee will toll you what his stores of food vtcrc durine the poriod ho was at :Scl::len. Tm autoority for insui ne food can:.: from tro local food people at Ii.amburg head off ico , and Cello , which was a subood i strict head office. At tho bJg inni~ food was sont to him citmr by rail or by transpor t , and when, through the office of tho P..i •• F . and J\mcri cans , trans pert ser v ices were not running to normal, ho hi mself hXI to sorrl out his troo~s to colloot tho food. !tl has said in his statvmont that he got som.J food f r om tro Wehrmoo ht Depot in Ber gon- Bolsen bnrr a.oks , and y1e have had a gl owi ng pioturo of tho conditions in tho food storos when t ho Briti sh took ov er: s acks of sugnr, tinned milk, t inned 100at and f l our and various othor things. Krame r will t ell you thnt a t no timo d i d ho roccivo from thnt store any of those art i cl os. The only thing ho got from tho barr aoks, and he got tho t rogulorly for a bit, vtas broad from tho broad storos , and Whon he says in his statement ho got focd from thoro' that is tpo food ho eot . Krronor als o got brood from a big brond factory in lbnovor, but Yt ith the adv ance of tho British Nld tho acourooy of tho R• . \. . F, bombine , that factory was put out of conunission am bread from troro finished . fu also got bread - am this vrss corroborated by Dr. Leo .. from a bread raotdry at a pl ace called Soltau , not for from Belson. I n his l etter of tho 1st March Krrure r says t hat at that date ho had potetoos for eight days and turnips f or six days. Thero have boon al.legations that he did nothing about the \·rat e r systom. \/c have heard that wotor deperxlod upon e lect ric currant and as l one as that olcctrict curront was runni 113 watvr vms running. But Krrunor krow that as wel l as any British medical of'ficor, and before tho current was cut off ho had these cororcto porrls v1hich v10 have ward about c l eared up, ond he will toll you what was found inside them at tm ti.Joo . Ho had them cloorcd out, l evelled and barbed wire put r owil to provont tho int(;rnclc s throwing things i nto them or £.,l() tting 110ar thoso poros f or any other purpose than that authorised , \"lhich was for drinki ng wator. So whon tho current d id finally go tl~ro were t1'osc concrete porrls. Krruoor will tell you tha.j; vthon tho current wont there was no wat er for washing. Ho will toll you that, and tmre ,.,as nothi iv.:; in tho c ircUJll9 tances that ho could do. Now with regard t o sanitation. You have had pictures of peopl e performing their nat ural e.ots all ovor the camp whcroovor they felt inclirod. Whon Kramer firs t arrived thero was suffi.oiont sanitation, thor o were l avat ories in oach hut - and we have hoarcl from one of the wi tnossos thot 13. thoro wore lavatorius in oach hut. Dut at that time Kromer gavo orders for trorDb;;e ..to be dug, and ,.,e havv hcru.·d from one " i tnoss that tho sarily soil wo s on.: of the easiest soils to clie in. Thu tro:oohos wore due and thore wos no ro£1s on v;hy they should not bo due ri ~t ~oU( )l until tl'c liberation. Kromer will toll you about those inforrnco. Vie havo had a pioturo of those poor o mac iated, hunger atri.ckon, booton nnmbers of the hwnan oonvnunity. Ho will toll you that that m.'y bu truo up t o o po int, but thoro wor o peopl e y;ho natui ally porfol'JT¥)d their notural fumtions whoro they felt irolirod . I n addition t o trot tho v ast ma jority of' them wore sick om were unoblo to make thob v1ay to tho plooo whur c it was interrlecl they should perform their natural functions , ~ext with rogard to ~conunodotion . It is quite cl.ear, am there is no dispute at all, that accomoodeti on v1as Jrossly OV\Jr-crowded by any atarrlard that cen bo thought of. Kromoi· hod two choices. When transports arrivod ho could e ither put them into tho camp or he could l oove them outsido, H:> had instructions to tako thorn into tho oomp . Ho novcr kr..ow when thoy wero oomill,;!; or how many wore oomine, or whnt oondi tion thoy were go inc.~ to bo in. They came i n and ho put t hem into t ho comp, and thoy wont inside build ings. That is how tho aoconunodation was ero3sly ovcr-orm·Jdod . '.J.'her o wore very f P..e asked about bods . Ho mentions boua in his report, arx:1 in too sooorrl half of ! ~rch he did opporontly got 500 three tier bods, but you will appreciate thnt 500 throe- tier bods arc 1 t o use the words of Dr. Loo, • like a c rop of io&•:;on on iron plate. Next the blari Wo have heard that in tho oookhousos food had t o have throe cookings in order to produoo £1 moal.. It is quite obvious that Solsen was oomplotoly duf ioient of all t ho essenti al things r0quirod f or oocicing focd for a l ar go number, orrl Kraoor asked repeatedly for Jlbro of thoso big boilers so that thoso throo c ookings would bo nvoi clod . V/o .h avo hoard also a lot about tho d isposal of t ho det\d. Thero Y1as , r1c hove heard , a s :rmll oromotoriwn in tho camp which booorro hopolossly inr.doquatc t n doal v1ith tho largo nwnbor of pcoplo who di od . Dr. Loo told UB thE\t l ar ge funeral pyres woro made on which the de e<.l wor e burrod • Kramer vlill tell you - :mu D;· . Loo oonfinns this - thnt tho Forostry Commission rofusod to llllo:1 Kr amv r to toke wood and out dovm trues from t ho surrounding d istrict . In Englan:l that is t 0 us almost imomoivobl e . I f wo want wood wo go an' get i t . In Garmany if you aro tol d not to t oko a thin.:; you do not toke it. Tooro is a s ue.; ostion that it was only whon Krarrcr ooard tl~t too ;Jritish wore rm hie doorstop t hat le beg an to think of clc:aring th:> camp . Mr . Druillonoc gave us a e raphic dosoription of the int0rnoos bcirl[; morchod rourrl oarryill[; bod i es oni l:x.d.ne told : " Hurry up, tho 3ritish ar c oomi~ and you must 0ot tho pl ace cleano:1 up" . Ki•omor will tell you that those 14. '- Kram:: r will toll you that t hese mos s .:;r aves were begun l onG bef ore t he British ove r got near tho oornp, or CNO r wC; r c hea rd of as beine noar tho orunp . Bo1.i cs wo ro bo i nt.; rrov Wo hnvc h.} ord of the AusolTNit z or der . 1J o l.nvo a pictur e of Kramer se mine f or his thugs fr om 1~oochwitz t o come nm do tho s araJ thine at Bo lsen. Tho Court will hea r f r om Kromor t hat Ausc hwitz was broken up as o c Krame r will w l l you ogoi n that ho ho·~ no knc111 l .:idi:;c of any bontil'l6 or ill-troot rrc nt on tho port of the S. S. whilo h0 was at 3cl son. Tic hovu ho ar It is quite cl ear t ha t poopl o in authority ot Oranionburg know thllt Be lson was to be a camp f or sick peopl e , orx.J it is quite obvious that they must hnvo known what thoro was at Bolson . Dr. Lollingo himself carro down t o soo and we nt away, am hu must hov<.. ~o no fr/toy with a picture of tho hospital and modicol arr~ngom::ints which wcro t hu ro nt !Jol son, Md ho must hove known what was f urther r e quired . There arE; aga in a t Delsen certain per sonal a llegations of ill treatoent a.gains t the COLT.i..'l.ndant hiu s el:f'. Ther e n.ga in I shall l eave it to Kromer hiose l:f' to tell you vlh:it he t hinks about them. Tht:re is a nother allegation which I would say i s in t he nat ure of a red herring in this co.s e o.nd that is the a lle gation t ha. t a ans chrunbc r was b ei ng guilt a t Delson. K.ro.Ller will t ell you t hat t h.'l. t i s no t hine el se but n. lie. I have indi c..~tcd thnt t he de t e riorati on of conditions a t Delson . was due t o the transport diff i oul ty, a nd I should like t o say o. word or tm a.bout tl;at. In the fir st pl a ce Krruncr was t ol d that tha r e would b e s i ck peopl e coming fror.i cnnps in N0rth wost Gen aa ey. Thos e pe opl e certa.inl.Y crunc to De l s en a nd t o say t hn t t hey ..,·rore sick pcop:i.c is an unde r es t:ilnat c. ;.. A lar 3e nur.lber of than were dyiil(:;; 1. l o.r ec nuuber, we have heard f rom wi. tnesses incl uding Dr. Leo 1 vrcr e dea It is quite cl ear t h "'. t tow:ircls t he end tho ;:.co~lc who s e nt t l-\es e transports hn.d not t he f aintest i dea of whti t was lnpr enins. Kramer ,,ill t ell you t hat a t the beeirmine of April, the first t wo weeks of Ap ril, he received .:i. notice t hat a lar ge t ranspor t ms on i ts wo..y and i t ..·1 as on tho.. t very day t h:it ho hen.rd t hat the Briti sh or Ar.10rican a rmoured speax'h en.ds wer e in Brunswick and in Hannove r . 15. '' , .r ~ -..• ...... • ...... · ·~ · .•.....• ...... ,...... ,. ·i.t is inevitab l e that much of wha.t Kramer is going to say will Abe uncorroborated. .-;~en like Pohl, Glucks o.nd Dr. Lolline;e are not aw.ilable~ f or a very eood reason. So nnny of Krruner's a tterapts t o get things d.ono c0L1e to nought t rot you mn~ wonder whether he reo.lly made these atta-.ipts or intended to 1".lake ther.i. As eVidenoe of corroboration of what was in his r.1ind I shall call o. witness who smred his hopes arnl shared to a certain extent his plans and also 001."lpletely srared his trials. She will tell you as fur o.s she knows what was in his mind during these difficult tir.1es. 6im.lly, in the l o.s t ·dAys, Kramer stood completely o.lono, deserted by his superiors while these waves of circumstances beo. t around h:im. Since the elate of the liberation by the Dritish J osef Krc.lLlor, fonner cOJ:lllllndAnt, has been branded throughout the world as "The Deaat of Delsen". When the curtain finally rings down on this staBe Josef Kramer will, in ray submission, stand forth not a s "The Deast of Dolsen" but as "The scapegoat of Del.sen", tho scapegoat for the r.ian Heinrich Hirauler whose bones a re rotting on Lunebure Heath not very far frou he~ and as the scapegoa.t for the whole NationD.1 Socialist System. > With your pennission1 Sir, I will now co.ll the accused, J osef 16. ' ...... ··-··· ...... ~... . ~ ...... , ...... ,. - .... • . •. • ·•·.6 - ._ .• . ' .. ·Lt is incvi table t hat much of whllt Kramer is goi ng t o scy will fj be uncorrobo.ro.t0d. ~.!en like Poh1, Glucks and Dr. Lollinee are not avn.ilabl c!; f or a very BOOd reason. So nnny of Kromer• s a t tcmpts t o get things dono come t o nought t lnt you r.~ wonder whether he :c-ea.lly made ~he se a.tt or intended to i:mke ther.t. As eVidenoe ot oorroborati on of wha. t was in his r.1ind I shall call o. wi tncss who sh:lred his hopes a n extent his plans and also compl etely sh:lred his trials. She will t ell you as fcu• as she knows what Vias in his mind during thes e d.ifficult tir.lcs . ~imlly , in t he l ast ·days, Krar110r stood coutpl et ely alono, deserted by his superiors while these vm.ves of circULlStances beat around hiLla Since the elat e of the liberation by the Dritiah J os ef Kr..u.ior , f onner cocri10ndnnt, has been branded throughout the world as "The Beas t of Delsen". Wben the curtain finally rings down on this stage J osef Kramer will, in rny submissi on, stand forth not a s "Tho Dea.st of Del sen" but as "The scapegoat of Delson" , tho sco.pegoa t f or the r.ia.n Heinrich HjJanler whose bones a.re rotting on I Luneburg Heath not very far frou he~ and as the scapegoat f or the whol e Nat i onal Socialist System. > With your pexmissi on1 Sir, I Vlill now cal l. the a ccused, Josef Kror.ier . 16. • !.. \ .... v THB J'UIGE ADVOCATE: The accused, Kramer, is trucing an oath on the bible and he says that will be binding on his conscience. He will, of course, give his evidence in Germ~ THE ACCUSED, JOSEF KRAMER , tlakes his stand at the place from which the other witnesses huvo given their evidence and, having been duly sworn, is examined by MAJOR \Y'INWOOD as follows : - · Q What is your full na'lle? A. Josef Kramer• .qi When and where were you born? A. On the 10th November, 1906, at Munich. Q Wer e you a member of al\}' politcul party? A. With the exception of the National Socialist Porty, no. Q When did you join the National Socialist Porty? A. On the 1st December, 193l.. Q Arc you married? A. Yes. Q What did you do in 1932? At In 1932 I was without work and I joined, I believe in the month of June, the S.S. Q What kind of work did you do in the S. s. when you first joined? A. For the first f~w weeks I a ttended only parades, I believe once a week; then after four or five weeks I was working in the office as a cleric. Q Did you work in the concentration camp sorvice of the s. s. when you joined ' '\. up? A. Only later on. Q When did you first begin to take part in concentration camp v.ork? A. In tho Autumn of 1934. Q When did you cease taking part in c oncentr ati on camp sezvice? ~ I was working at that type of work without interruption U."ltil April, 1945. Q Where woro you at the beginning of Uey, 1%4? A. In Kay, 1944, I was in the concentration camp at Nntz-.vei1lor in Alsace and on tho 10th or 15th ?1.ay I came to Auschwitz No. 2. Q How did you receive your instructions to go f rom Natzweill er to Auschwitz? A It was on hi gher uuthority from Borlin that I hvard I shall bu transferred. This ndifieation was , how4ver , not officio.l; I heard that only from one of Jl\Y comrades vorba.lly. At tho beginning of the :;tonth of May Obergruppenfuhrcr rohl told me in Natzweiller that I shall be transfcrr0d and two or throe days l a tor I had offi cial wri tton notification I was being transferred. Q Did you say anything to Pohl when he told you you were being transferred to Auschwitz? A. Yos, I t old him th:it after ey having been at Natzvreiller for t ho three last years I thought tho.t tho camp was in running or Q Yfny did you not Wish t o go to Auschvr.i. tz? A. In 1940 when Auschwitz wns crea ted I had been there for five mont hs and already at that ti.'lle I did not like at at nll; the:re was no proper order or tidiness nnd t here was the Poli sh cl ement as well; at mi:y rate I did not like it n.t o.11. Q I s this the origina 1 telcgrllln you 30t trMSforring you to. Auschwitz? (Handed) A It is a copy of th.J; original . Q By whom is it cer\;ified? A. It i s cortifh.d by my adjutnnt S. S. Oberstuxm'uhrcr ~attcng aek, who at that ti.me :ictcu as Jl\Y Adjutant at No.tzwoillcr C t\.':lp. 17. - ·- . .. MAJOR WINWOOD : I propose to read a translation and hand the translation in with the Gennan original. "State Tc legr a.>n receiv ed by s. s. Uscha Fischer on 6. 5. 1944 at 1040 hrs. Berlin. 5.5. 14, 58. On instructions of tho Head Department t he following transfer co~o s i nto force at once. (1) S. S. Ostubaf Liebohenschec, Commandant of Auschvr.i. tz I i s tra nsferred as Com:,1andant of Lub lin vr.i. th tho Labour crunps of Warsaw, Radom, Dutzin and Bl icyn. S. S. Unterstunnfuhrer Vial t or for the Lublin s t o.f"f vr.i.11 be his adjutant. (2) s.s. Sturmbanfuhrer Hartjensteon t al ( Te:l egr o.-n dnted 5. 5. 1944, toe other with English transl ation, is !riarkod Exhibit 119, signed by the President and attached to tho proceedi ngs. ) MAJOR WINWOOD: (To the witness) : When you a rrived at Auschwib who wns the com:nandM t of the v.hol e of Auschw:i. tz? A. Obersturmbann:fuhrcr Hooss. Q Of what wo.s the camp at Auschvritz.cor.1posud? A. The ca':lp at Auschwitz had throe sub- divions; it was a very huge c o::19 nnd the sub- divisions Wl)re Crunps Nu.mbers 1, 2 nnd 3. Q WhDt was your position in Auschwitz? A. I wun tho com: ....a ndant of' CP.. np No . 2; Auschwitz No. 2. Q Was thnt a lso called by nnother n.:uno? A. Dorkcnau. Q D:> you r emember naking a l ong sto.to:ncnt which was r ead i n Court tho other dey o.nd DJ.so n. shorter st ntanent which was rea.d tho next dny? A. I do. Q I wish to rco.d t o you one sentence of the f irst st at e:nent: "I hnve hco.rd of the allegation s of forner prisoner s in Auschvri tz referring to o. gas cha'?lber there, the _nass executions and wh i ppings, t he cruelty of the gur.rds employed, eJ1d tha t e.11 this took pl ace dther in =:\Y presence or with ~ knowl edge. ill I can sey to all this i s that it i s unt ruo fro!l beginning to end. " In y our socond statemcnt you made a sta.tcmont nbout the gas ch~ber , ad.~itting that you kn0w about it, nrrl giving dotnils nbout it. Will y ou explain to tho Court how it is thet i n the first ntntomont you seid it was untrue und in the second stntoment y ou said t hnt i t vtt:'.s true? J.. The discrepancy in these two s t at 0ments hnve tv10 reasons. Tho first one is tht'.t i n tho first x s t nt e!"lent I was t old that the or isonor s c,llcgcd t hnt these gas chambers were under :?\Y comr.1c.md. The second nnd main reason, however, is that [Obereruppen I fuhrer Pohl who spoke t o mo took ey word of honour that I shall be sil ent ' and shall not sncnk t o aeybody at nil about the existence of these gas chamber s. D..lriilg ~ first declr.rnti on or st nt e1:1c11t I felt still bound t o this word of honour which I gave to hil:i. -r / Q How was that f our months l a~e r when you made y our s econd s t atement y ou did not fee]; bound by tha t wor d of honour? A. Tho f irst statement I made in Dics t in Bol gi tL'l'l. At that ti.."'lc I did not know how tho vmr was going on; it wns still war . The second st:l.t cmcnt I ::tt:'.do in prison in Celle. Then tho war wns aver and those persons t o whom I fc:lt t hnt I wr.s bound in h~nour - .Adolf Hitler, Rcichfuhror Hir.nlor - did not exist ney 11oro, they were not alive, and that is the rcnson wny I thour;ht thnt l'\Y word of honour which I gave did not bind !".IC nt thut poriod. 18. ___,_,,,~~ - - , ...... Jt ' •• Q Did COJ!ll'l\'.:'.l'ldant Hoess scy neything t o you about the gns chn..'!lbcr? A. He did not say anything. I received a written order from hi.~ thnt I hnd nothing t o do vii th either the ge.s choubors or incoming transports, it was not in my jurisdi ction, and I had no right to scy e..eything obout that. Q How did Hoess issue his instructions nbout transports and about the gns chrunbers? A. I cnnnot so:y neything a.bout that . These ordors CD!:lC f rom Auschwitz 1 eJld as I was t old thC>, t I was nothing to do with so I cannot give al'\Y sort of explunati on nbout these orders. Q Was there a political dop ~trtment in J..uschvr.i. tz? J.. Yes, in J.uschwi tz 1 • Q Wha.t did that depa.rt;.ient do? A. Tho political depnrtMent not only nt 1-.uschwitz but in every car.rp had all tho card- index system of the prisoners, they were responsible f or porsona.l docu.~cnts ('Jld also responsiblo f or any sort of transports or incoming prisoners. Q Did tho pol itical dcpnr tr.tent ~t Auschwitz h~vo al'\Y particular duty? A. Tho poli t ioal department in Aw;ch\•r.i. tz was also r osp:)nsiblo f or all those soloctiono from inco?:ling transports for tho gas chnnber , Q Who was it who actually worked in the cremntoriwn? A. In the crematorium there were S. s. nen 211d prisoners who were taken. This party had tho name " special ko!:mando" .. "sonderkonnnndo" .. and the:y were under the com.-r:iand of Obersturnbarmf\lhrer Hooss, tho Comno.ndn.l)t of Auschwitz. Q Were you some.times present ut the a rrivnls of tho t r ansports? A. Y0s, I was somot i:nes pr esent becc.uso the pl e.ce where these transports generally arrived wns in the raiddlo o f rt\Y own cnmp, between the women 's compound and the men' s compound, and if I w~ntcd t o go, s~ , on on inspection I hnd to pass thnt porticulnr pl.nee and, thorcforo, I vro.s so!:ieti:Jes present when transports did arrive. Q Who vms re2ponsiblc for the control and keeping of l nw and order when the tronsports arrived? A. For tho strength of the transport, for the nwnbor of the prisoners to arrive, there was soioobody the re i'rom the political department who also was r esponsibl e for the sel ections which sent socc to working c runpo nnd other s t o the gas chnmbers. Sccon~ fror.l the security point of view, there was ~ lW ='.YS someboey from the o.d'!linistrotivo sto.:f'f, f'uhrcr or untcrfuhrer, from Au s~wi.t z 1 pr 0sent. Those people who took pa.rt in supexvising 001d w._; re rusp:msiblo f or the security wore sometimes or partly from_Auschwitz No. 1 and pnrtly from Jl\Y own crunp a t Berkennu, but the selection of these poo?le who had t o supervis e it was done by the Commnndnnt of Au schvri tz ·J. Q Who was it who actunlly rondo the selections? A. Tho selections wore onl:y l'l'l/.).de by the doctors. If at the a rrivnl of a transpor t a doctor wo.s not availab l e so the transport hnd to we.it until n doctor o.rrivcd c..nd rondo these selections. Q Whnt happened whon the trl'..nsports hnd boon divided into gas chnmber nnd c~pable of vro rk? A. Those wh0 wc: re selected f or the en.schombers went to the dif ferent crcmator iwns; those who were found to be fit for work cDJnC into my comp ; they wont t o the b~th and they were t hen issued vr.i t h frosh w'lderwoar and fresh undcrclot hing. Those who vrerc f ound to be fit for vrork crone into two differ ent pru-ts of my c ru:tp because t he i c!ea was that very soon uftor, a f ew dcys, t hey should b e ro-transforred to different parts of Ge?T.'lru1Y for work. 19. - ,. Q Did you yourself ever tclco M active part in the selections? A. No, I nov or t ook pnrt and not only I but tho other s. s. member s of ll\Y stnff did not t nkc D. l'\Y part either bocnusc, ns I mentioned before, the co:::nandcnt of Auschwitz 1, Hoo ss, gci.ve direct instructions t h~t g~ s c ha~borsvaro not Jl\Y responsibility at llll N1d so, thor of or o, neither I nor nny of 1-:\Y S. S. s t aff t~ok part in al'\}" of these solecti ons. Q From who!:l did the doctors got their orders? h.. I co.nnot scy exactl y beccuse I hnve nev er s een these order s but I should think that Dr. Oberstur.nbrumfuhror Wicrtz, vrho wr.s t he senior doctor of the car:?p, must hevc issued t hose orders t o tho other s . Q Where di d t he doctors live - where were t ho heci.dquarter s of the modicE'.1 A. 1 staff? The doct or s lived all toeet hor in Auschwitz 1 and the hendquartors were nlso in J.uschwi tz 1. Q It hns been alleged by various witnesses thnt you personally selected people f or tho gns chamber; i s t hnt true or not? A. No. Q It has also been suggested t hnt you usod violence vrith which to lond tho people into tho l orries t o go t o the gns chomber; is tha t truo or not truo? A No. Q What was the pur pose of the gas chrunbor ? J. . I cannot sey anything about that, I do not know. Tho only one who c ould sD..y ~thing about it v10uld be Oborstur.i'1bruurl\ihrer Hocss, but I ;-iysolf nc.vor spoke to him about it. Q What did y ou personally t hink nbout tho whole gas chrunbcr business? A I t hought and I esked fl\YSclf: "Is it really right nbout these persons who go t o t he ens chn!'i:>er s , and whether t hat :i:>0r son who signed f or t he first 11 ti:oo these order s Yrill be nblc t o £tnswer for it ; I do not know. Q How long did Hoess r c:main comme.ndnnt of .Auschwitz 1? l.t'ror.l the month of Mey t o the end of hUgust ho wo.s corx c.ndl-.nt of Auschvritz 1. Thon ho went to Berlin nnd in the t wo months, Scptoi:ibcr o.nd October, tho.t I rcmD.ined still at Bcrkono.u he c nme so;1otincs down t o i.uschvr.i.tz. Q Who took hi s pl l'.CC o.s COLl..'n-".ndnnt? .t.. It was Haup tstur.nfuhrer Baer who l o.t or on was ~noted to t he r l'.nk of Stu1,nbo.nn~hrc r. 20. · Q. Was Baer commandant of Auschwitz .: on 1 7th October 19~1.-? A. Yes, a nd at the same time, being can.•'IE.l.ndant of camp No.1 he vias responsible and co11unand.ant of a ll the three other crunps. Q. What happened on the 7th October? A. On the 7th October there wa s a sort of revolt, a revolution, and people tried to escape and a lso fire in t he vicinity of crema tari\ll28 Nos. 1 a nd 3. Q. Where were you when you first heard of this revolt? A. I wa s in my garden. It was aft0r lwich. I was o. t home. It was a Saturday. Q. How far was your house from the crema toriun? A. About three kilometres . Q. Will you tell us what happened when you first heard of this revel t. Vlha t did you do? A. As I mentioned b efore, I was sitting in rzy gar-J.en. Suddenly r1~ driver car.ie with my car and he reported to r.ie : "Dii.l you hea.r that crei'llB.toriUlll No. 3 i s in fla;M.:s?" I said: "Oh, I calUlOt believe that. " I could not :bnagine it being trua. But then I heard that from Auschwitz No.1 all the troops \7ho wor<: available at that tir.1e were loaded in trucks and driven to Derkenau, and apart fran that that a lso the f'ire brigade from Auschwitz No. 1 wns also on its \7a.y to No; 2. · ~ . When I arrived near cranatorium No. 3 I saw that crcn'IE.l.torium No. 3 was burnt out already at the t:iL1e of ruy arrival, and among the l c::aders I found there Ho.up ts tu:rn'lf'uhrer Baer and Obers tunllfuhrer Hes slcr. Then \men I l eft Tf\Y car Daer spoke to me in this way -- I cannot remember exactly his words but this is what ho said: "Now, Kramer, you see the crcrua. toriun is burnt out and there is a. big rnutiey goi ng on" a nd the prisoners thought that during the upheaval caused by this fire they will succvvd in getting out, but as far as I know until now nobody got out, and the ringleaders of this 1.1utiey were shot. Q. IX> you know who gav e: the order that thoy should be shot? A. No , I cannot .say. When I arrived the prisoners wore a lrcaey lying on the ground. Q. \las there ~ eybody el se in Auschwitz of tho same nruue as yourst-lf? A. At that tiJ.1e no, but in the month of M.a.y th0r 0 was also a Kramer whose r :rnk ~ra.s hauptstunr.fuhrur. Q. Did other sel0ctions take place in the cru:lp? A. Not in my part but in those parts where those J ews were housed which arrived with transports. In those parts other selections did to.ko place. I must add that those J ews were also in parts of n\Y car.1p, but they were under the couuia.nd of Ausehwi tz No. 1 • Q. Did you yours~lf ever attend these s elections in the crunp? A. Yes, several tir.1os when, l et us say, I v.:i.s on inspection tour. Then I sto.yud there for five r.unutos or half an hour. I stood there. Q. Who was carrying out these s el ections? A. 'l'he sel ections wore also carried out by the doctor, :ia.inly by Dr. Meng<::le. Q. Did you yourself ever truce a n active part in these s el ections? Q. Were there aey other selections besides the transports and the J <.o ws you have spoken about? A. No. Q. It has been a lleged that selections t ook place in the hospitals. Do you know aeything :ibout them? A. Yc.;s , those took place in t he hospitals, which accor.1panicd thos e J ews I was spanking about who , although being in li\Y !'~rt of t ho crunp , uid r eal ly bel ong to J·lushcwitz No.1. It was a sopara te !Xlrt in 1:zy own cai:tp. Q. What vr.:i.s this particular part of your camii known as; the part \/her e tho Jews were ke;pt? 21 . A. It 'rills cruitp B. 2. C, for shorl cru.1p c, a nd B. 2. E accomnodated the ,,,en, but the general n.-u~1 c was the part of' the trani::;port Jev1S. Q. Did you yourself go into this hospital froo tiue to time? A. No. Q. \thy did you not go into the hospital? A. Because the hospi tal was only the responsibility of the doctor . I ho.d no say in i t a t a ll. Q. \/ill you t ell the court ,.ma. t Auschwitz No. 1 vm.s responsible for in r cgo.rd to your CU!tip? A. ,;.s I said before , Aushcwi tz was sub- divided in one, two a nd three, but everything concc.rning o.ccom-.1odation, supl1lies , transport, the Ytork of the whole P.dminis t ra tion, depended on Aushcvri tz No. 1. In reality rey s ervices were not the sorvices of a car:tp coD.:mndant but rn ther of a lagcrfuhrcr. Whenever I needed so1.1ething I could not give aey orders, for instance, to the political departr:1ent in ;i.ny crunp, but I had to nppzy t o Auschwitz No. 1 • I got a lso the orders from Ausbwi tz No. 1 concerning re- transfer of people f it for work to different parts in Gen:ney. Q. It has been a ll~ged that certain expc.riluents in r egard to sterelisation \ and injecti ons were car ried out in i.uschwi tz. Do you lmow aeything \ about this a t a ll? A. Not in Berkcrau. If something sihlilar should h~ve been done then perhaps in Auschwitz No. 1. Q. I want to a sk you a f ew questions a.bout certain f .~atures of concentration 00i.1p life. How did you know how 1:1any internees you had in the Cruilp? h o Through the roll culls. <). Wi l l you tell the court what forr11 these roll co.lls took? A. These roll call s took place eithc:r in front of co.ch block or on a suitabl e place; which was good enoue;h for that , o.nd the count \Ills 1.10.de by each block:fuhrer, or in the wor,1en ' s cor..pound by the aufseherin. 'fhen those block:fuhrcrs or aufseherins r eported tac.;ir rolls to t he so- called rapportfuhrer, who is in charee of that proc~ecline , or rn.pportfuhrcrin - it could be a fennlc. The numbers -:1c r e compared and if they tallied the roll call m1s over. They fell in in rows of five in front of their b l ocks. The roll call 1 r in Berkenau in both co11pounds 1 in the men s a nd women ' s compounds, inspi te of the t'act that about 10, 000 to 12, 000 to 15, 000 priaon1.;rs were I counted did not tD.lce longer tha:i !ilD.XL-nuo half an hour. Q. Did you yours~lf often attend thu appels? A. I was in c&-ip evecy day unti l the roll cull ,·m.s over. Q. Did the block:fuhrcrs as for o.s you know h:i.vc :i.ey difficulties on the appels? A. Not in those compounds wh0rc tho working pri soners were, but i n compound C where the tr.'.lnsport J c:ws were, yes . Q. What were those: difficul tics? A. I a ttended once mys elf a roll cal l" in this compound C, n.nd a l though I did not wunt a t a ll t hat they should fal l in in front of their blocks whn t I sa i d was only: "Fall in in fives ", and I wa s counting o. nd counting for a whole hour, but when I count0d 300 or 400 t •.ose wh0 vwrc count1:;d nlrcady s tarted co.. 1 i ng in f ront for the purpose of s eeing what wus going on. Then I told to the blockaltcstors and through t hem to the prisoners : ''I have tried cmough and I shall count, and w1til I f inish the count the f ood \'li.11 not be distributed." After this the prisoners fell i n in f f vcs a nd the whole count was over in 20 or 25 r.iinutcs. If it had been alJ.czc:J. that the roll calls took sorae times two or three hours i t wa s not our f'\ult, not the f ault of thos e ,·1ho counted, bt.t i t w.:i.s the; behaviour l)f the.:: prisoners. J• I think you said thn.t you yourse.;lf conducted this appal only once? ,;.. Yes , once. • Q. Aml the blockfuhrcrs ha .. -· ...... \4• Would you a s co;,"Qnandant bhuc blockfuhr crs if occasionally they lost their t er:rper? A. Yes , I would blruac thCT.t because I would tell thera they had to be quite quiet :i.nl'l ucccnt t ovm.r ·:.s prisoners - 'iuiet and decent in their behaviour tmr.irds prisoners, but on the other hand I would understand that after hnving told ihte~cea ·. t' ive .t ino8' Q. You menti oned that these Jews woru directly under the ca:11;iand of Auschwitz No. 1? A. Yes , they we re only o.ccm:nodat cd and fed hero in l!l~T part. 'J• \/o.s it your r csponsibility to hol~ tho a.ppcls for this part of the camp? A. Yes. Q. You mentioned the a rb i ctskor.1:ia.ndos. Wha. t t i lle did they go out to work? A. It depended on the s eason o.nd it dc~1c ndcd a lso on the worlr.. In sunr.1er for i nstance 3encral ly they wont out i..t t 6 or a t 6. 30 or at 7, and they cauc: hoau a t 1800 hours, so.-:iet:L.tes a t 1700 hours. In autumn, for insJw.ncc , some working parties \"1ho wer e 1t agri cultural work went out at 5 or half pn.st 5 or 6, but that i s only for a short !_)eriod of a few dAys or perhaps one \reek, Q. Did the a rb i etskor:irna.ndo hD.vc t o l'\ ttcnd the: a1'pcl before they went out? A. In Auschwitz yes, not in Bclscn. Q. What time did t ho appal start in ,"mschwi tz? A. In the r.10rning a quarter to 5 or 5 o 1 clock , and in the uutur.m later . Q. Wor e the S.S. r eoplc, lilCn a nd v1cr.1cn, o.llowcd by the corimiandant to carry weapons? A. In Au::>chwi tz ·the S. S. 1i1cn had their revolvers or their guns, and the a ufsehcrins, ~') robab ly from my predecessor or fro•. 1 Oberstunnfulu'Cr Hocss, ha.d pczrnission to carry revolvers. Q. We re they a llowed t o carT'J any othor sort of weapon besides a fireana? .... No. Q. Have you ever s een an S.S. Dau or an G. G. woman carrying aeything in Ausch\·litz other than o. pistol or rifl e? A. Yes . I saw once when a transport arrived that so~.1e of the S. S. men hncl Yro.lking sticks. I l ooked a t it for a da.y or t wo, but then I was afraid that these S.S. night use these Yro.lkint; sticks for corporal punish1.1cnt of the prisoners, and I eave the order thut these \fJ.l ki ng sti cks shoul d be withd.ravm, and on the third day ther tJ were no 1.1ore walking sticks about. <&. These S.S. iilcn \IDO were carrying s ticks, -~ . If any other S. s. men carried sticks or other unauthorised wea.~Jon did the;y do i t against your orders? :.. . Y<.::e'=• Q. You r.tentioned just nm·1 CO!'l)O ral pwti.shmc:nt. Was that a llowed in Auschwitz? A. I t wus pe:n1\i ttcd by hi!;,hcr authority a t Oranienburg , which wa s consulted fror1\ ca se to case. When this authority gave pcn.1ission then it wa s pc:naitt ed. <4• \'/as that donE.- through the c01.ir.\'\mlo.nt of Bcrkemu or through the con-11nnchnt of the whole of ,·.uschwi tz? A. Thu. t could be :-.a do by each co... ua mlo.nt. I myself I have written t o Ora.nicnburg in such cases. Q. In how iila.l\Y cases durin3 yotu• t :i; ,10 :it Be;rkcna u di d y ou get permission from Oranil;nburg t o carry L'Ut cor1x>r'\l "mnishl.wnt? A. I ca nnot say exactly, but I should think abont 35 to 4D cases. • - • •• F"...,_. ,•----- ··- ·------ Q. How wo.s thn. t corporal pwti.sh.tvnt carried out? A. The prisoner had to bend over o. tabl e o.nd the ""lun.ish·11c.nt \/'\S ac1J.1inistcrc Q. 'ilho v10.s present .:i.t the b00.tine;? :u The l o.gerf'uhrer und the elector had to be :pr esent. (At 1)05 hours the court is cl osed) (At 1l1-30 hours the court is reopened) (Tho o.ccusc 'h!E ACCUSED, Joseph .K.rn. .1e,;r i s recalled on his fon 10r oath l\nd further cx.:u:ri.ncd by MAJOR WHMOOD o.s follovra : - Q Vie ho.vc heard a l ot a.bout do J3 ~ t Auschwitz. Were t her e dor;s t here ? A. Yes, in Berkcmu. Q Vfho had use of these, t1Dgs ? A. Thcrv nns n s pecial ::,uard corapany who wo.s r esponsibl e for these do(~ · Q Ho.d t he does '\nythine to do vri th the o.duii1is tra tivc personnel of Dcrkcnnu? A. No ; only ,·rith the '..,"\lard personnel o.nd they v1cre distributed t o different work squa.cl:; out on ne:;riculturol work. Q Co.n you Give us t he ru:u:lc of the cor.al\nclcr of the gu:i.rd troops a t Berkene..u? A. It wns SS Obersturrn.fuhrer Meyer. Q Do you rene:·.1o ~r t he witness Glinowicok ? A. Yes. Q Do you rcr:1e!-.1ber hin s o.yin...; th1t you caught hir.1 o.nd (!JI.Ve hil1 25 strokes ? A. Yes, I d.o. Q Is tho.t true ? A. It c~n only '!)c t rot f or soucthing or other he got 25 strokes which hn.d been authorised by Oronionlllure hi gher authority. I rcncuber tha t the witness G1inowiosk s o.id t hn.t it happened in the autur.m of 1943, but I h'\ve not been at tmt t:L-ae a t Ber kcn.1.u so he must have been r.tist:ikcn and uust h'\vo taken souebody el se for oe. Q Did you yourself over {~ i vc 25 s trokos t o GlinoYriesk while you were in Ausohwi tz ? A. No. Q I n one: of the nffido. vi ts that W'1n read tho other da.y ( transcript 16 page 28) yon uerc accused of shootin-.., a t poJopl e with a nachine om and s etting do3s on thcD. Is th:.i t true ? A. No. THE ,JUIX;.E ADVOCJ~TE : r/l1a t a.ff id.a. vi t is t hat ? :MAJOR WI NWOOD: 125. (To t he vii tnc.ss) Who. t personnel in Derkenau or Auach w:i. tz wer e nn ned vri th uachinc guns ? A. Only t :1c c,ruard ccr-.ipany. They were in pos s essi on of r.nohino (,uns. Q I s there o...nythint.S else you YIOuld like to tell the court :i.bout Auschwitz ? A. At the rao!.1ont I wuuld not, no. Q Will you now tm--n your o. ttr.mti on to Delson. How did you receive your i nstl'u-.;Lj<'ns t o go f ro:1 J.uzoh',fitz t o Delson ? 1.. As f a r a s I co.n re1.1e1.iber, it \v~ s a t clog1·ru.1 o:rj rd rvt Li ng frou Ornnicmbure and directed to Auschwitz No. 1. Q \"Iha t ...... ·- - .. - - ··- ·- · ·- ··· . .... · t'~ ~ 4!"· ...... - Q When you had handed ov0r what cl id you do ? A. The t cl cgzntl said I had t o 30 t o Berken-Dolsen and on r.1y journey I had t o report to high authority, Gluoks, which was o. t Oronienburg. Q Did you sec Glucks ? A. Yes. Q Whn. t clid he t ell you ? A. Ho spoke t o 1110 a nd s o.id: "Kramer, you aro going to Berken-Belsen. Tha t i s a con'lp for sick people and it will contain all the sick prisone:; rs frcn thu Northern pa rt of Gcnmey a nd also o.11 the sick prisoners of the world.ng canps in the North-Western part of Gexmany. You will have ther e about 17, 000 t o 18, ooo prisoners." He continued and said a ll the sick peo9l o from these parts - the Northern part and North-Western part of Gcrr.i:uzy - would eventually come into ll\Y camp. I asked him then: 'tvfcll, how will thll.t happen ? Vlbat sort of tronsport is it?" ~nd he.: so.id: "I c ~nnot a nswer this a t the moment; but the idea is that all those who, f or a lon3er peri od than 14 days reri1a.in in the c.R.s. and through this distlll'b the non Ml v.urk of a camp, should be assanbl ed and concentrated in your camp" . Then I a sked: "Well, what will happen to these prisoners who a rc all ri(jlt aeain" and he answered: "You send those ei thcr to those ootlpS whore they ca.rue from or you will build up a new s eries of "WOrkinb parti es, nn Q Did you speak to a eybody el s e on buslncss o. t OrdtlionburgA. No , I did not speo.k with anybody. I spoke with throe comrades of mine, but those were friends. I forgot to so.y befor e that Glucks t old me a lso during this interview: "Kromer you will find a part of the oaup with J ews. Thes e Jews are so-called exchanae Jews. They will eventually be s ent away a nd excho.ngod, but when that will happen, I do not know". Q Did you then no t o Dolsen ? A. Yes, on the 1st Dcoemba r 1944- Q What did you find there ? A.. I founG. approx:ir.lat ely 15 ,000 prisoners there. I must say I fotUld it was rnthcr overcrowded because e.ccorauoeation was very lir.ri. ted. I f ol..U'ld a f ew t ents - one or two - but I know that ll\Y predecessor because ol this ovorcroYt\'.!.ing had to put up t ents, b ut through a stonn those t ents on r1iy a rrivo.l vrcro a l rea Q Is this the handing-over cortif'ico. to Which you and your prodecossor signed ? A. Yes, it is a copy from tho original, but it had been typed a t the srune tirne. Q Is it signed by you and your ~redecosso~ A. Yes. MAJOR YfINWOOD: It says: Der gcn- Delscn, 2nd DcccJi1ber 1944. Jianding over certificate. Following tho tronsf cr of the fon:1er oor:rp cor.t;aand.ant Ha.us and tho appoint.. 1e nt of Kramer o.s co1:T.lantlant of the transit csamp Bergon Delaen, all stores o.nd ccmpl c t c camp with 15,257 prisoner s a s- well a s compl e t e papers a nd secret doctu:.1cnts wc.: rc handed over on the 2nd December 1944- That is signed by Haus ancl by Krw.ier. will you tell the court how many of those 15,257 prisoners wer e not oxohnnge Jeus ? A· JJ>opt half of than; 71 000 or 7 1 500 were so-called cxohnnge J ews. Q What t ypo of internee was the other hnlf ? A. They were nonJal prisoners of conce ntration oru;ips . A:; I had no particular documents about ther.1 I oo.nnot a nswer this question o.s t) wh•.i t tYPes of prisoners there were, but I koow there were about 1500 to 2000 men o.nd about 4000 or 4500 women. ...... -.: ... ~ · . ... - ~· _...... -~- .. . , 1 4. .... · · ~ --.I ,, .__ . .J .....--.-- ...... - ...... _ -- ______. , ·-······ --··- · - - -·- · ---- => Q \'/oulu you doscri!)v t h<::l con Q What eventuo.lly h'lppencd t u those exch1n;:,c J ews ? A. I n the first few days of December until a. f c;-r chys aft er my a rrivn. 1 1 a · Goverru:1ent off i oial frcm Berlin - his rank Yms Regi erunesrot, but I carmot r et.1Ci.1bcr his nrune, oone down a nd sorted the r11a jori ty of these J ewn out , about 1300 or 1400 peo:)l e , and they Ymr c , in t he nonth of December , s ent a~y t o Swit zerland. Tho second p::i. rt wn s s el ected i n the s ru11e r.lanncr and in the month of Ja.nua:cy about 400 t o 500 l eft f or Svrl t zerla nd. I must add that these peopl e did not stand under a ll t hosu peo?l c under whoso authority I stood. They -.·mrc COl:ll'l1.'.lndcd dir<.ctly by Rei ch Security Co11TiilElnd • Q Wha t exactly is the Reich Sccuri t y Coliunnd ? .A. The forr.ier titl e was Gest apo - Secr et Stat e Police. Q Who. t happened t o the rcr.:ainclcr of tru::se exchall3C Jel/S ? A. The r emaind- er , to which a mm transport c o1:1i n,:s frcru Hunt/1:cy wa s added, l eft the cru:i:_:> on the 31st March or 1st .April f or the destination of Theresienstadt. They l eft i n three transports . Q With r e.:;ard. to t he food i n t h e.: o·iup durin~ the whole t:ine you were there, what was t he s i tll'.l. tion when you urriv ed on t h e 1st Dect.'Ulber ? A. Wh en I cru.1c I founc'!. the f ood situ.at ion quit~ a ll ril)lt, because then. were only about 15000 prisoners ther e. Later on, howuvcr , when new t ransports a rrivcG.; t he f ood s ituati on a nd t he sup-...ly systa.1 becane Dore s er ious. Q WhE:r c cli c1 t he food come from ? .'\.. 'l'hey cru.1e fror.1 Celle and f rom Han- over. R\rtly I hatl t o provi cle ••lY ovm tronsport f or this. In Ja nun:cy, Febr uti.ry o.nd M:irch, potntoes which we hn.d fra;r the winter before, were s ent i nt o t he cli:f'f'cr ont kitchens a nd then I had also some food supplied from a f inu in Hrun1nll'g which ho.l! a. si.ll\ ll braneil office in Bergen its elf• In the begi nning I bought the whol e o.mount of bread supplied fror11 the TruppenubU1l9lpl a tz in Dcr gen i tsulf, and then l a t er on when, through incoming t ransports, r,iy strength increased the whol e t:ime and I was told 'by the authorities of this Truppenubuni;;splAtz t hnt I coul d only have 10,000 l Q Did the situation vri th r ego.rcl t o cettine f ood get worse or get bet t er ? A. Worse. Q In what -.m..y di d i t :;ot wo rse ? A. It bcc"U11e Y/O rse because t he new trans ports inerca:.;ed r.iy s trength the whol e t i.r.1e . During t he yfinter r:ionths, however, J o.nunry, Febru.'\ry a nd March, it vm.s hardly ~?os s i'ble t o get 8.IlY pota t oes or vegetabl e s , and t he peaso.nts wer e r eluc t a o t to op en r eserves. Regarding t he bread s i tUl\ tion, I eot ji1Y br ead fror.i Cell. c , then lo. t er on fror.1 Hanover a nd in Hanover I could h 26. . '-.... H.1novcr a nd :01l'tly the rands and t:1e mil sy3tci:4 \'/hon the railway • systcra did not work, I myself sent m.y transport out to fetch sorue broad; and for weeks and weeks it wz:: s .'l. lvm.ys the snoe: ei thcr the 0'lk0ries wer e destroyed and the :railway system wns a l l ri[.;ht, or the railway system was destroyed a nd the bakeries were a.ll ri;::;ht. It went on a nd on f or weeks. When these air - r:iids s tart ed that wns t he first t:iLle when bread did not a rrived in the cump. Then I got i n touch with a bakery f izm at Soltau and I got a. f ew t housand per week fron that particular bakery, but with an increasing m.u.ibcr of prisoners these br ead sup:>lies were certainly not sufficient. One has to rc.1lisc tha t Ber gen-Dolsen is s i tu.a. ted f a r away from o.cy bi egcr t ovm, bconuse both Celle and Sol tau a.ro not bie t owns in the sonsv t l:int t hey QOuld provide f or such a n cnonlous camp of the strength of 30,000 to 40,900 prisoners, s o I lw.cl to tr,y to get sup?l ios from Hanover , a nd 'men the r ail way systern did not work I sent out :.-.;y whole transport - five vehicles- and my drivers were on the job nie}lt a n get the indents in t o proper authority. There was no difficulty about that, but t o get the proper thines was cliffic ult . In the month of January, February and March, because of the cold cliroa.tc these supplies were even ;~ore difficult to ob ta.in, and ltlY administration s ta.ft' ;ns told again an I would hold thCl".1 responsible for a cy sort of ca tastrophe which mi ght happen. On the 20th Ja nuary I was handed over a f orr.1 of P.o.w. cru;1p. This caup, incidentally, boc!lf.te ln t or on t he women rs cor£nound. I touk over :\ll the SU:Jplies whic h wore thurc for the wintc.r, and t hose things which I f ound there hel ped mo just a bit to ~ridge this very difficult period. -- Q. What was the food st tuation at t he end of J~rch und t he beginning of April? A. Those rations which I was provided with would have been quitt: s ufficient for heal thy people for a f ow weeks, As the transports, hovr<;,-v er , mostzy brought onl y sick peepl e and hungry people into my cu.mp - I refor to the etatcment of witnes13 Dr, Leo, who said that one third of the trans :.)()rt vras dead bef oro t hey arrived, so you can wel l i:na :~ ine !1ow t he other two-thirds l ooked when they did nrrive. I repeat, f or thooc sick "'."li- Ople who came into J1\Y camp wore those rations not suff i cient, nnd I !:aa got only those rations in f or the sick people, Q. ; :l..jor :'.°)cn icy, who was one of tho f i r st witnesses, told the court of a l ar30 food s t ore in t he wehnnacht barracks a kilometre or two away. Jh Yes. Tho.;e supplies and those r eaezves were r eally for tho wehmacht . 1~ supply system depended on an entirely civili an affair. I could not ' pply t o t he wehnnacht for any reserve s e.nd the wehrmacht was not ... uthoriscd to gi v e me ruv. In these rep ort s they were tnlkir.e about m~ nt . Woll, I g~t meat twice a week from Celle, I had no r eason t o ~~ply for it to the wehrmacht. Thon anoth er quotation r:iilk or potato00. ':' hose wen: supplied also by the civilian authorities and I got t hcr1 actually nll t hat I had the right to apply f or, Q. What wru; t he feel~ betwoon tho s. s. nnd tho wehmacht in tho l ast fl-Vf weeks of the war? A. I do not understand how you mean f eeling botv!o1..11 the S.S. Q. Was t her e.. n f'riendl,y feeling bgtwcon tho S. s. and the weh:n~cht? -~ · On tho surface it appeared to be a friendly r elationship, whether i t wa r:. r eally such as one of those exp~riencos I had lntoly r ·would rather Qi1,,. Q. Do you think in these last days of Wllrch a nd the bogirmine of' April tL~.t if you had gone to the wehnnacht otorcis e.nd asked for food you would I· vv ·0t it? A. No• O. liov: \"fcro th o internees f eed who came into what we now call No. 2 ca"lp'i' '·• Thos<.. i n camp No. 2 arrived there in the last week before the British [.r1·i.ved. I had for t hose prisonors nothing at nll apart from two wc.;-;ons .:n· potntoes and six or eight wagons of turnips. Then the Platzcor.~~. ...-.ndan t, Col . !lnrrott, gavo orders that those prisoners ·should be fed fro::i the s upplies of the wehnnacht• but lnt..::r on thoso r ations had to be r cturnt.'d. ~gain . The motive for tho decision of Col, Barrott night have been thnt as t hose prisoner~ were in camp No 1 2 v.nd they vrorc not behind bnrbccl \liru but !"!OV t:d about quite frooly he was afr£'.id that if they would not get l'J'\Yt hing io 0nt for a f ow days they might f oll on his barrncks and the civili~s who were i n charge there1 Q. What vrr-o t he position r egarding water in the camp? A. We got out wntor s upply through pur:lps from Truppenubungsplnt~ In the month of Eo.rch, h::>wcvor , I had somo thoughts what happens if there are nir r a ids ; t hfr wc.t cr sys t~ would b e destroyed, so I gave orders that those huge CC!'lll.nt ba:>ins, whic}) were in caso of outbreak of fire, should bo pumped out, cleaned and refilled again with drinking wuter in case of energcncy. 'rho r.io~ent I fcnred a.ctunl.ly ca.'ne in the last woeks1 We used the wnte;r in ihu concrete bas ins for cooking but water f or wnshihg was not avnilabl o. Q. When did you say this water supply gave out , do you so.y in the l nst weeks or the l nst week? A. In the l ast week. ' Q. r.to ho ho.d no doctors :w a i lei.bl c .\t the • 1o!ncnt , :)Ut i n n few Wt:.t;ks ti:u1.. ho i'l"Ould got Dr, Horstm..-m.r1 ~ the s econd doctor , Dr. Horstmann arrived i.l. Belson. I 'believe. in the bof;inning of l~rci;. Shortly bcfor ch.'U1d Dr. Klein had been in the comp for a f ew dr.ys t o take over f ro:n Dr. Sch:1:w1..l, who vro.s i ll, 3.!ld i n the course of 1.:nr ch he c c.me: c.gcin for n f'ew dcyn t o toke over !'or Dr, :;ichnav cl, who wo.s not there then. I n Enr oh ho vr.:1.s comna t o tclc.o ~r fJ:Om ~ SchnD.lfcl w.b.o ~cs i ll fo.r z.bout (. fo rtni ~ht . THE JT.TDC-E LDVOCATE : I om afraid I nm not v er y C'.loar on this . ls thi~; ri;,!lt: ".ttr. } jp'rst.~33 arrived in t he first weok of 1'.arch, and short:ty uci'orc Tu·. Klc.in h<'.d cone to ~l i wo Schno.vol• ond in }~ rch .he CP~"!'lo cy~ in 1:0 tr.kc ovc:r from Schnr..vul! .wh o Wd.o Ul fo1• 14 Wl.Ys. " .W.JOH \ITNWOOD : Will ycu direct your att ention back e,cnin t o tho question of' sMlitntion. Wh..."..t stops di d you tole~ when t his grcc.,t inf'lux of intornees c ame into the ce..":'lp? A, Thora \rt:L'6 lnv P.tnrics. iJ1 the men ' s compound, nnd when vre took OV>e t- the for.ncr prisoner of wc.r C."nP• . \'lhich wc.s eo ~. n: r to bo the wo:nen' s cn..."?p, we fown three or four lntrines. But there Ywrc: nat ~h() ugh ; there wore throe or f our l o.trino p.laccs in 0ac h :,'\rrcck. As the prisoner s had a rrived l'J.ro(\(]y .something hnd to b e dcmc i n a liuny, so I ordcr0d thD.t. ditch0s:>. should be dug nnd there should be one for e nc t1 t \,~J h.1rrncks. I gave the orders .-.nd t.s fc..r a.::;. I know t hey h..'lvo been c~rr:i od . out. I want t6 poiut out that tho -ycopl0 I had i n ~.-~ men ' s Cl'J'lp we r e t\ll sick persons, they could .not work, so for diGging those.; tl'cnchee I hnd to r e ly upon the ta::10.lo pr.1.sonam .. and perhnps t hey ht:-.ve not wnrk.od quit e ns quickly t'.S men would hk\V e done, 'l'he- 1ua.n t~'l.t- TT<.:rc found on t he 1 5th .h.pril fit ~or work onl,y E-.rr.i.v od. i n Bc..lsc.:n in thu .lnst t on d.1.ws j o~oro the liberation. Q. Apa rt from the f act t hc.t t h<::se intornvvs wc.;ru ill, is t here 1.mythint (;ll:;c, y ou can ti.ill us a.bout their t ypes. t heir he:h..wiour :-.. na. so on? A .. Fr om the trnnsports tbElt a rrived in Februcry ~~ nd 1.Iu.rch about onc- thi rel of the;. ·people were dcnd already• Cl.S Dr , Leo tol d, The other pool!l<.. , • .::i.htos t 8o% of then had to be fJetchod. by truclc £rom the st c tion, ~!ld I ~'\d to sci~ ey ovm prisoners from t he Ot...";lp t o put t hem on tho· trucks. Thi.; m.~ e iv1 ~ nn idea of the general o.pponro..noo ~ nd s to.tc of hoc.1th -:J f the prboners wh~ wer e arriving in thes e two mont hs. In f'o.ct it vms like this, r:w five trucks ..Ne ry do.y tw.d t o fetch f ood, bread · n.."xl building ::1utcrials , {'.11'1 when they crone bock in thu .:- fternoon or c.t night t hey hnd to eo t o the nt a tion to collect t he new a rriv~l s . 1"'s n r esult of thc.t rzy truckc were very often on the ro ..,d t ill 1, 2 or 3 o ' clock :-.t nirht . Stnnda.rtenf uhr er Dr. Lolling in hie visit i n J c.nunry m."..de it quite clenr tha t Bol s en could only o.ccormnodntc J O, 000 pri soners . Fro!-:! Ruv ensbruk mcssnges wer e s ent to the other c oncent rati on crunps snying tl1c.t Bcl sen wns t o become a c a~p f or s ick puopl c, but t he peopl e in t he other conccntroti 'Jn ca~ps knew ve ry well thnt we hv.d in Bcl sen not hine but 0::1pty bnrr THE JUIX;E f,DVOC11.TE: ( To t he I nt crproter) .'.re you quite sure you hnv c passed on in English ~cmse wh~.t the.. w:i.tnc2s so.i d in Gol:'mrul. It docs not seem t o ·:1nke nuch sense to the cour t . Wh:tt ~ oos he nec.n by there W£'.s nothing e t Belsc..n but v!"lptY bc.rr uckz. TllE IJTl'ERPREI'ER : Th~ t i s whc- t hu t~.icl . THE JUWE J,DVQCi.TE: ·.~·ill you try • nd cletu" it up, be c~use some of the court nr c puz:::l i.ng what he i s tryin..; t o convey. I do not s uppose thc..t is viho. t he v1~.s S"-Yi l'\;.: e.t o.J.l . MA JOR 1/rINWOOD: Whe n he sai d 1.;.ipty uc.rr ."\ckn I t hink he u eant only bnrrD-cks. You cn.nnot ~ek e n. nick Ctl1'"J) out of l · .r:rocks. 29. .-"" l.... Dr, IJol~L"l~ hacl been to 36l:;en a.nl llaU odviseU. H. 2. , Ravensbruk that B0lsen was to beco1i1c a oa11~) !'or sick :-coplo, nnd t '\cn headquarters in Ravanahruk sent oessac..-es to o·chcr concentratiop oam_) s t o infor m them about J~his. , althout;h they knew thD.t .dcl.scn had. l'.lOthi ne el se but e~ty borrnoks , no bo.is , no pai.1.Jilses. THE JU~ ~·1ncc . .TE: no i.icans just barracks Glld .no f'urn~tu:co or 04lipJ11Cnt . to put in. :.:.JOR :rIN1100D: (To t h o Intet?rctor) Will you odd on what tho witness said. ; .. .No bods ~ no ~·} , no blank-0ts-, lioth!.n ,~ at all - no furniture. f..s .a result of my o.ot!..vi"i;!.cs I rooo!.vc.: 3 ,000 t hroe tior bocls, or at least I shoul U. rec ~ivc t hem 'Jut ~.. hc.y l'lad n:>t cotuG .f~m C~hoalovakia, au:l. nt ,. t h.ct t:. .. ic t here. ·sore :_>raotioally no trains runninc. Just th0 5affiC w:..th tho fill i nc of' tho paill.::l.i3-03, t:ut W~S wood £ibro, wt t ,e at"OUrJt "\/O roooivecl weo perhaps ~u.;1 f or. ~ barracks, "buJ" n:>t anou~ for oil ·the b&n"'&Oks \IC had. Q.· Lay I ha ve th<:i'c l o.st orumcr a -a.in? 1- ~ho i'U:..i.ne to:f'·t.h.e ~oa. 0011siatO..:d of YtoO.: fibre onl tiio ur.nunt we roco:.Vcil no;:; !?crM:)s cnou~ to f ill t no pailliases in t v.io barrac](.s. ~'.; not !.n all the 50 or 40 barrack s tl1cro "r1QrO. I roooivu:l. all t hoso "lI'iaonor.s al"Xl I could do lJOthixl·: l.'Ut pu t 'diem on tho bal.'o t'~. aol you onn tLUito bcl :..cvc mo that .r d id not l iko tho L-:cn of' ·w.t t inr· thco ~n t !'lo OQrrack f loor, but t here v:nn nothing al so t o t1o. .:·crh.:::.>s I could hov~ :rni Q. Just one r.orc question about t~1c trai1a.ports. now nuch not:.Co did you reooivo of t!1e p rospoot:!.vo ari'ivol of n transport? ~·-· Prom tho lar~r oonoentretion csqls , Saahsenhauson, Buchonwald, I r oooivcd tolcerar.l3 one or t -:10 days ··ofcrc tho arrivnl of tho .)rioonors, f~s far as tho ::> t hcr trans-~'orls arc cono orn~l , the v~st r.;a j or !.t y , i;rousarrls of ·~J CO:?lo , the only notice I rocoivcl ·.ms when sor..obouy ot Belsen station phone: re up antl sni d :iyou con cxi_1cct o transport for your ca:.p in about hal f an hourn t i r.10 . " Orey at t~1c nrr:..v3l at the stati on nt Belson I lonrncil wh.crc the t r ansport 001.io from) ho:'' ;Jacy :_->c r son::> t here wore, whether t hey rmrc r.ien or woi:ion. Tra nsport s ar:-iva.1 CS;_)0Ci.'.llly rrur..l Jo.stern Ccr •. a:ny, U~T,J Or Silesia - for instnnco, fro111 ~·.usc:Y:1itz .. ortl t !1osc :>risonor s hod been do in ~ the first port of their j o,tr:-ioy on f :iod; aft erwl\rtls t hey !10U. tho Oi'L)ortunity to c o cit hor by rD ilwny o r in truo!rn. I t llan ' ono.:.l ·:r:. th t :rnso transoorts t llat tho l oatlor of tho trall!3P·> rt nJi; t:10 s l:otion a t l3 .... :~son ov en thc~1 was not ublo t o toll me of how r. .a ny por:.:oni.; t !iis -tro.nsport consistccl. I t ol d thou: "';foll, you have arrival in tli::.::: trun:::;port onc.1 you shoulLl. know how cacy pooi.:;lo t her e e r .:: , orrl t:10n he sni~l : w:lol l , \lu ·.1Crc fbc:..nr; and su.lclcnl,y 110 fou rrl the s·~at~on , J.;l\ ::..s 10 , 12 or 15 t \Ck~; ·.10 ~iu shol in as 1.iacy pCOi_)lo as we could an. Ylc starto" nn1l t~lOt iz ho;; .:o ~n1 t10 h~ rc. ·.then I GD.iC::. : 11 \7cll, you shou1~: ~~t.) n0lc to t ... 11 i.•u tho ::i ·~rcn ;th of the tran&1>ort as you h..'1u to fcccl thou I ·.ms told. : 11:k;ll, t..!.urin ; t :10 journey t h orc. •.10.s no .:'oot!. l'.t o.11 ~ocau:.;.:: t;1oro was no tit..<.: to tr-kc oore of ::..t, .:m.J. : cncralzy there \Ins :10 food m1c1\J •.1c coc;o. " I only Y:E\ntc . to tell you thi s a:x::i1.pl c t hat you .. ay lrno-.., ho\. the con.:'.iti ons \/Cr<.: t'lurin;· the 1..onth of Jcnuar-' , February ancl l :irol .... Q. Dit1 any internees :.rrivc at the c:i .,_., 0:1 f'oot? .... Yes, _1r:.soncrs Q What did the i nternees bring with then? A. Most of tho transports only arrived with the cl othes they rod on, but I knovr that the people who started froi.1 Ausch...-li.tz went away vii.th a nother suit o.nd twt> blankets, bu t you can W'ldcrsto.nd that if these peo·,l o hnd to Tilo.rch all day t hey just threw a.11 their l ugga.t:;c away. 1... s ll. rcsul t of tho l ong dis truicos t hoy had t o rJ.D.rCh the prisoners wer e hinder ed too much by carrying the s econd suit and the two b l ankets o.nd so they just eot rid of them. by droppi n& them near the road. Q Had you got a stock of ".>lo.nkets in the cruap? A. I r eally cannot sa.y because the hundred or two hundred I ha.d wo.s of no im:)or tance for the thousands of prisoners I received. Q I want t o a sk you a f ew questions about the kitchens and the cookhouses. How :.::..'\ey cookhouscs were there f or the whole of Cruap No. 1. ? A. Five kitchens, without the cookhousc f or the troops. Q How were thes e cookhouscs divided? A. Two cookhouses were in the liien ' s OOLJp 1 two cookhouses were in the faJD.lc' s canp o.nd one was in front of the women 1 s Cll.ap. Q Which cookhouses cooked for vmich corapoWld? ;.... The two cookhou::::es i n the women's ~ o.n1y cooked for the women and the kitchen 2 in the men1 s comp also cooked f or the Ytorncn. Q For whom did tho fifth cookhousc cook? A. Most of the time Kitchen 5 wo.s cooking f or the wo:.1cn ' s oomp, but it depended upon tho strength of tho prisoners in the camp n nd so s o1.1ctimcs they cooked for the 1:1en ' s c:1lnp a s wel1' Q Wor e there sufficient cooking a r rongeoents for the nunbcrs you had in the camp? A. We could r.\'lke enough cooldne arrangements only by cooking two or three tL"".les f or every r.1eo.1. Q Did anyt hine j_Xlrticulo.r tmP?cn in Fcb rw.ry tha t you ra:acober'? A. The main thing I r emember frot1 Fcbr'l.l£U'Y is that this numerous number of transports .. o..rr:i.ved. Was ther e an outbreak of o.ey :xi. rtic~ disease? A. ~e tro.runorta A coi.U.ng froo the l abour crunp Na tzvmillcr broueht spotted fever with than; i the t rans;>orts corning ~ro1a FAs t ern Gcm10.ny brought t;Yphus. / Q What steps did you t.1ke about the spotted fever'l A. After Dr. Horstmann (who r.rust h::tve a rrived in February, not in the nuddle of Mo.rch) reported spotted fever to me I ordered that the romp shoulll be closed o.nd I r eported this t o Derlin. Q What r eply did you get frou Derlin? A. I rocei ved a t el egram from Derlin so.yine that the closing of the cainp wo.s no 3ood, the cruup should be re-opened a nd I had t o take a ll tro.nsports that were goine t o a rrive. In a later t el c&ror.l it stated that first of a ll I Ba.d to ta.lee in the t ronsport of 2, 500 wor.10n f ror.1 the cru-:rp a.t Ra.vensbru.ck. Q Were you so.tisfiod with the condi tious of th e coup D.\t the end of February'? A No, and I reported this in n l etter t o n~rlin. Q I s that a copy of the l etter that you wrote? (Handec"R) A. That i s o. copy. MAJOR V(!NWOOD: I pro:>osc t o put in this letter al though i -t is not an original; it is a copy of a ~>hotosto.t copy which I nade .f.\Yself and I ~ prepared to go into the witness box to sny so. I got it ~rom the Arnencan Court a t Nureraburg. On tho f~lcc of i t it docs appear to b & an authentic doc1E.1ent but if it is objccte<.l to by the prosecution I can £30 into the witness box 1zyself. COL. DACl MAJOR VrIN'llOOD: The t ranslo.tion \ nlS o.tto.chcd t o thu doctni1ent so I have nothing to do with the t ranslntion except thn.t one paragraph VIO.S coittcd frot.1 the l et ter a s not lrcill(; rel evant and that t ranslati on was mado by one of our interpreters here. I must so.y this wns not sif:?'led by Kromer but ini tiall.ed by Kramer . COL. DACKHOUSE: Ma jor Wi nwood o.ssured mo he had seen u photostat of the original. He h'ls now supplied me with L\ cor,y of t he t ranslation and I want to be quite sure I havo Mo. j l>r Winwood ' s a ss urance tha t he saw the originn.1 l etter or , rather , the photosto.t of the original l etter which went t o Clucks, because I think thtlt whn.t he is producing is o. copy of a. letter which wns produced by Hrs Kramer arul not the original a t a ll. THE PRESIDENT: Is tha. t sie;ne MAJOR WINWOOD: It is initia lled by K.rnner ; it has "J. K." on it. COL. DACKHOUSE: The whol e thin.g which is irnportc.nt is uhere it came from. If it C..'Uile from (}l ucks file then it vrunt to Glucks but if' it is something vthi oh Mrs Kramer turned up - which I think it is - it may or n.l\.y not have ney vulue. I am sue._,esting it is o. lett0r which Mrs Kramc:i... produced D.:f'ter this o.."l.s <:: started. THE JUroE ADVOCATE: 'Who got the l e tter? COL. DACKHOUSE : I say Mrs Krru11er proc.1uced n J ot :ter which was supposed t o a copy of the l etter which .Krnmc:..· i s supposed t o have sent in March. Tho. t is one thing. An origi n..."1.l l otter which cane from 6lucks ' a file is a totally d.if:f'erent thing beoo.usc thll t was a genuir.-3 l e.t t er sent. The l etter, of which I have been supplied with a. copy, is undoubtedly the one which Mrs Kn:i.rner procluced anc~ not the one which came frora Glucks ' s file. If that is the one which '·\Y friend says he ms s een an original of I shall wnnt a very much better o.ssurnnce a. nd in f a.ct I would like him to do as he s ays t o eo into the box and be cross- exaiuined on it. MAJOR WINWOOD: All I can say is th.."l. t I saw a photost a t copy of tlut l etter . It is not sie;ned, it i s initialled 11 Ha.upt3tunll'uhrcr COUlLlc"l.ndrult J.K. "• I have no i dea where it cmne fron. If the l etter came froia Mrs Kromer lll1d. vro.s in the rands of' t he prosecuti on I should very ouch have liked earlier in t his case to have s een it~ THE PRE':>IDENT: What I -u-11 not qui t o cl ear 'I.bout is: where di d you s ec this phot ost a t? .... J.: . MAJOR WINWOOD: I saw the photos ~'.l t copy in the file of the American Section of the British Via r Cr:iiacs Com1.rl.si on in their office o. t Nuremburg. They · have a file which is headed: "Dolsen" , a.ncl it had vGry little: in it except thi s photostat copy plus the t ranslation by Ma j or Godden. It TJlll.Y have coue from Mrs Kramer; I do not know a t nll, OOL. DACKHOUSE: I know ex.o.ctly wher e it cru.1e f ro1,1, that is why I wnnt the assurance of seeing the original l ettor, THE JlJLCE ADVOCATE: The point of :im:1ort.'.lnco s urely is not that KraLlor may have wbitten n letter; it se0Ills to me that the question is: di d he write a l otter n.nd if so di d he send i t ·.. .) someone in authority above him with a view t o having the situation r emedied? MAJOR VTI'NY/OOD: He did. Can I put this to Kruuer am ask him if that is the l etter which ho wrote, or the subst:Ulce of the letter which he wrote to Glucks or not? ' mIE JUIX}E ADVOCATE: If the witness ia prepared to say: "I now look a t this dooUilcnt o.nd, refreshin[; my mcr.1ory f rom it, I ru.1 prepar ed to swear I wrote such a letter" that would be a c1ilissib l c n11i it would be for the prosecution to cross- eXtll.line him a ftervro.rds i f they do not asrcc vri th it~ That seems to 1:10 to be the only way. COL. :OACKHOUSE : I h~vc no objection to tmt. The only thing I would like is for Ma jor Winwoocl t o vrithdntvr wha t he said, thnt he had seen n phot ostat CO!)Y of the original, because I knc\'I a ll about tha t l otter. He has ccrfain1y not seen a photostat copy of the original; what he has seen is a. photostat copy of v/h'.lt is supposeU. t o '..> e a copy and that is a very different thing f:ran a photostat copy of the original. MAJOR WINV/OOD: The photost.:lt copy ·,ro.s, as f ar a s I could make out, a photost.:lt copy of a top copy of the lotter a nd not a ca:roon copy, but I an not so very sure about it. THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: You never saw any docwcnt a t a ll signed in the full nar.10 of K.ramer'l MAJOR WINWOOD: Th.at is correct. It r.1v be th'lt he just initia lled the copy; I do not know. THE JUroE ADVOCA'rE: I think, Sir, he i s entitled to put the docw:ient t o his orm wi tnoss a nd sec what he s uys nOO. then the prosecutor can cross-examine hir.i on it. THE PRESIDENT : Very wd l . MAJOR WINWOOD: (To the witmss): Will you rca.d that letter carefulzy a nd s ee if it is the l etter which you wrote to Gruppenf'uhrcr Oiuoks? • (The witness reads a portion of the l etter.) THE JUDGE ADVOCATE : Do not you think the vri tncss vrill be abl e to re.wember whe ther he wrote ~t by this time without rcadine it right through? Mh.JOR WINWOOD: Yes. (To the \ri tncss) : Is t ha t the l etter? A. Yes. Q Did you send a. copy of that l etter t o Grup·.,ell:f\.lhrcr Glucks in Jerlin? A Yes, the or i ginal. Q Was the letter posted·? A. It wus not s ent by post but by :t'rivute courier so that Gl uck$ received it on the next day. ,...; Towards the end of Ma rch did you receive another visit from a higher l._;uthority? A. Yes , from Ober gruppenfuhrer Pohl. Q Ib you know wl'\Y Ober gruppenfuhrer Pohl crune clovm to I3elsen to sec you? A To inspect the camp. Q Did he mention this l e t ter \·lhich you rod addressed to Gl ucks? A. So far as I can reuember there vro.s so1ae ta.lk about it in LW office, in oonnection with thos e transports which I had t o r eceive, but I can rEmenber that I had been Ul.l k:i.nt:; to hin about the incido.nt of closinB the o:unp and that "fY.\JI:l Oronicn!>urg orders came that- tho o.:lLlp hAd. to r cua.in ot>Cn· - .. l!HE JUOOE ADVOCATE: If the \Iitn ess is pr epared t o say : "I now l ook a t this docUi.ient nnd, refreshln[:; li\Y m~ory f rom it, I on prcpa.rcd t o swear I wrote such a letter" that would be nd.n.issib l c nnd it would be for the prosecution to cross- exru.dne him a.ftervro.rd.s if they do not agree vr.i. th it• That sccr!W to r.ic to be t he only way. COL. DACKHOUSE : I h :.we no obj ection to thnt. Th o only thing I would l ike is for Ma. jor \Vinvrood t o vrithclrovr wha.t ho said, tha.t he had seen a photosta.t copy of the original, because I know a.ll ubout that l etter. He has cer tainly not seen a photostn.t copy of the origina l ; what he has s een is a photosta.t copy of wln :t is supposc MAJOR WlNWOOD: The photosta.t copy v.is, a s far as I could make out, a photostat copy of a top copy of the letter and not a carbon copy , b ut I am not so very sure about it. THE JUDGE ADVOCATE: You never saw aey docmcnt a t a ll signed in the full name of Kramer'? MAJOR WIMlOOD: That is correct. It r.i'l.Y be th'lt he just initialled the copy; I do not know. THE Jl.100.E ADVOCA'rE : I think, Sir, he is entitled to put t he docu1.1ent to his orm witn<.:ss and sec what he says nrrl then the prosecutor cnn cross-examine hiru on it. THE PRF.SIDENT : Very w0ll. 1IAJOR WJ.NiVOOD: (To the witmss) : Will you rca.d that l ett er carefulzy and see i1' it is the l etter which you wrote to Gruppenf'uhrcr Dlucks? • (The witness reads a portion of the l e tter . ) THE JUDGE ADVOCATE : Do not you think the vri tness vrill be able t o reoember whether he wrote ~t by this t:iJ110 without reading it right throueh? 1ru'uTOR WINWOOD: Yes. (To the Yr.i. tncss) : Is the. t the l etter? A. Yes . Q Did you send a copy of t hat l etter to Grup-,enfuhrcr Glucks in .i.J erlin'/ A Yes, the original. Q Was the letter posted? A. It was not s ent by post but by f rivate courier so that Gl uck:s received it on the next day, ,...;, Towardn the end of Ma rch did you reoeivo another visit from a higher l__.;uthority? A. Yes, from Obergrupponfuhrer Pohl. Q I)) you knov1 wtzy Ober gruppen:fuhrer Pohl crune clovm t o Delsen t o s ec you? A To inspect the camp. Q Did h e menti . \ - ... , . ... MAJOR WINWOOD: The l e tter is headed: "Dcr clon-Delsen 1st March, 1945• From Josef' Krruner , Hauptstun:d'uhrer, Cm.lp Co1ml8.n.c1'.l.nt". It is addressed : "To Head ot Dcpt.D in S. S. Adiainistrotion Dept. , S. S. Gruppen:f'uhrer Gl ucks, Oranienbu:f'g." "Gruppentuhrer , It ha.a been my intenti o1: for o. l ong time po.st to s eek a n interview with you in order to describe the present conditions here. kl service conditions 1;i.'lko this :iI1lpossible I should like to subrait a written report on the :irupossibl e stato of affairs and ask for your support. "You infomcd r.ie by tolcgran of 23rd February, 1945, that I was to receive 2, 500 fc:r1ial e detainees o.s o. first consignnent from Rav:ensb ruck. I have assured a cccrnodation for this nuraber. The r eception of further consignments i s iJnpos::;ibl o not only from the point of vievr of accoraodo.tion due to l ack of space but particul..'U'ly on a ccount of the feeding question. When S. S. Sto.nda.rtenf'uhrer Lolling iMpcct ed the Camp a t the end of January it was decided thnt a n occupation of t he Clllilp by over 35,-,JOO detainees must be considered too grent. In the mc..1.ntine this nurabcr has been exceeded by 71 000 a nd o. f'urther 6 , 200 a rc at thi s t:ime on their wo.y . The consequence of this is that a l l barracks o.rc overerow cannot lie t1ovm to sleep , but r.mst sleep in 0. s itting position on the floor . Three tier beds or bunks rove been r epeo.ted:cy allotted t o the corap in recent tiL1es by Arnt D. III but a l ways frcu ur cns vri th which there is no t ransport connection. If I hn.d sufficient s l eeping accoraodati on a t ny disposal, then the aocooodation of t ho dcto.inoes which h~ve ~lrcady a rrived and of thos e still to cor.1e would o.ppco.r mor e posaible. In addition to this question a spotted f ever and typhus cpidcr.ri.c has now begun, w!Lich increases in exte nt every day. The da ily nortal ity r ate which was stil l in the r egion of 60-70 a t the bv81nnine of J!'cbl.'\llU'y has in the meantime n tt.1ined a do.ily nveraec of 25C- 300 nnd wj 11 l" ti 11 further lncrense in view of tho <>unrli ti rm!': wtri J h '\ t i->l.Y'!J c1llt a. w\il . - Tho next paragr aph is huoded "Suppl y": "When I t"Ok ovor the oamp wintor supplies for 15000 internoos hn "State of Hea lth . The.: incidonoe of d iseaso is vory hit,;h hore in proportion t o tho numbor of dctainoos. When you intcrviauod rrc on 1 Decombor 1944 at Orani onburg you tola rro that Bore;on-Bolson was to sorvo as n sick camp for all cnroc ntration canps in N0rth Gor lll).ny. The number of sick has greatly inoroesod , par ticularly on aooount of tho transports of dotoinovs, which havo orrivod from tho :ibst in recent ti.Joos - those transports hcvo som3times spont oi ght to 14 doys in open trucks . An improvom:mt in their con:lition an:l pnrticulorly n return of thoso detainees to work , is umor prosont conditions qui to out or thu question. The sick horc .:;radunlly piro tPlay till they die of vtoclcmss of tho honrt and 1,,i..mor ol debility. J'I:!> alroo.tly statod tho avor'\gc doily 100rtolity i s between 250 nn] 300. One can best Gain an idoo of tho conditions of incomine transport2 whon I stato that on ono occasion out o-=: :i transport of 1 900 dotoinJos over 500 arrived do ad . Tho fight ace.inst spotted fovor is mnu o oxtroiooly difficult by tho lack of iooans of clisinfocti on. Duo to constant uso tho hot- air ~lolousing machine is mw i n bod worki ]'\1 o rd ~ r and s omo timos f oils for sovcr~ l days . ~t tho ti.Jn:) of his visit S.S. Starilartenfuhror Lolli113 promised 1m c. 1 short-weyo delousing machioo' , To use this I nocxl a more powerful transf'ormar, which accord ine to information receiver: from :3auin.spCJction Nord, Uismaorstraeso, Borlin is a'uaitin.:.; oollcction. ~u tho\ltih I r...quire tho op!_)aro.tus s o urGcntly it is • impossiblo at tho prosont time: to sonrJ transport t o ilcrlin to a:il1,,;ctit . Tho s ame s i tuation provails "Hith tho :·. orts for the nus.v crematorium am for r r:iofi110 motorial and com:int . In my Oi.' inion it sh0uld be j_)ossiblo f or tho buil di r>.e d0i_)e.rtm:mt t o l oad nll t husa urcontly roquirccl i toms if not in a l orry nt any re.to in a truck and to acspatch this to this i.>laco vrith o transi_>ort of dctsineus from Snchsonhausen or Ravonsbruok. So far as tho buildillG Dci_Jartmont is oorocrnod tho mnttu r is f inishod Whon thoy hevu statocl that ,.;oo i terns can bo futchod from this or the. t i_.1l o.co . Tho Dci_-ortm.mts j_>robably b0livvo tho.t transj_1ort is wailRblo horv in g roat o.xcoss Dnd only 35. --- - , ·- waitin:J for cmpl oymJ nt. J~ further item which oonc ... rns the 3 uil!line l):)partm:::nt is tho scv1aeo install ation. I t •vos dccidocl in 1943 that tho existi ng machinery ·;10.s to~ small for thO number of ddtoi nees . In tho poriod s iroo 1943 sovcrc.l inv<.:stieation.s arrl lJlons ·10ro ma '.c , !:Jut nothi ng at all donv • Now owin.c t o this dG liborntion c. O.'.'ltastrophc i s takinc j_1laco for whi ch no on.: wishes t o wsumu responsibility. I t n\:ly bo pos:; iblc to initiate mo asuros from your errl so that tho matter is j_>Ut in haril . "Grupj_)Ont'.uhror ~ I can assure you that f rom this ond ovvrythi?'lB will be Jon... t•J ovorcoroo tho j_)rosont crisis . With this lE::tter I mc!Xlly wantcc.l to r>o int out t o you the d iffioul tics which axist horo . For my part it is a mattor of c "urso that thuse diffioul tios must bo overcome. I am 00;1 aski~ you f or your as::; istanco, as f ar as it lies in.your power. I n add ition to tho above- montionod poi nts I noo1 hero buforo ove rythi~ ecconmodati on facilities, bods, bl onkots, eating utensils - al l for about 20, CX>O i nternees. "On the quostion of puttill[; t ho intorroos to work I have contoctcrJ tho cmpl oynwnt authori ties . Thero is '\ churco of bci lll) abl e to make: uso, in tho near future, of woman l abour. Thvl\) is m availability hero of mak i 113 uso of mal o l abour. In a·.B ition to the oomontrati on camp prisoners troro aro ooro still about 7 , 500 intc rn:> os ( ' Exoha~o Jews') . S. S. Hauptsturmfuhror Mol3s :f'rom RSHA.IV• .;;..4. b was horc l ost wook and informed mo thaj:; those Jo.vs would bo removed in the near future. It would bo much approc iatod i f this could be dono as s non as possible , for in this way accommodati on ooulc~ thon bo f ound for at l east 10 , 000 coroontrotion oemp j_)r isonors . 3ocaus o of thv spotted f ovor clancor S. S . Hou~) tsturmfuhrer Moos is not willing to truce those Jows ~uf'.y at tho present ti.mo . Th:lso Jews aro t o go portly to Thol"Jsi onstadt an:1 pertly t o n now c am~ in tTurttombvr fi . Tho removal of the so intc r roos i s particularly urgent for tho reason that sever al ccncontrat i on camp Jaws havo di soovurod among tho comp int(irnoos thoir nonrost r ol otions - s ome their parents·, s om:: their br')thors and sisters. Also for purel y ~olit ic al reasons - I m:mtion in this connection tho hiG}l dooth ficuro in this CllJllj.1 at p rosont - i t is ossontie l that th:lso Jews clisnj_?:i,100 r from here es soon as 1Jossi blo. "Yfith that I wish to close my proaont report . In thi s cormoction, G ru7~nfuhre r, I want to ~suro you once o.:;a i n that on my J:>art everything will dof ini tol y bo dooo to bri 11 (Letter from Kramor to Gl ucks is m::irkod Exhibi t "121 , sicnod by tho Prosidont and attochou to the pr oco0d i 1113s) . }.W OR WIN\'/CX>D: You mJntinnod thot Ob ... r crup·.i:>cnfuh110r Pohl arrived at Dolson ? A Yos , on tho 19th o r 20th Morch. Q What c.l id ho do whon he eot t o thJ camp 7 A I went with him throuBh tho co.mp orrl I showed him purpos0ly thv \fora t ~) n rts ~f it. \ Q Did nnyboi:ly .:;o with you ? A ,.fith mu c ome Dr. Horstmann ouJ my administrat vo official Vogl e r arrl with p ,.., hJ. oruro Lollil'l(~O nm H,.,oss. Q Vlhat p')s i tion f' if Hocss hol d at this ti.mo ? A His rank was an Oborst urrcr fuhrer and he c amv t 0 tloputisu for Gluoks fr0m Oranionburg . Q Whor <. c id ynu e() nh.Jn you VIO nt into th.J c a~' ? A \70 \"/Ont at first to tho mans ' camp , inspcctec thoN o now sowatso sys t om aoo thon roturr~d throU£;h tho womJn' s compound . Consoquont l y ho s :-.w thu whol e; CalllJ.>• Q Did you r;o into the h')s}.' itnls, 0 1• t he huts that were used t1S hospitolB ? , ~ In rrons c m~0un 1 No . 1, yes; not in No . 2 , bucouso ro d i~l not "ant to soc nny mo re . 36 . . ., . ' Q Did ynu hovo any convorsation with him ofter his insp:>otion ? A Yos. His wo:rds woro: "T7hot I havo soon toJoy in Belson I havo novor soon bcf oro a!\YW m ro" • My answo r Wl\s : "G1•upponfuhror, I nm sorry but I cannot show y0u somethil1£ bottor, but 1f thoy sond. mo nothing also but si.ok prisonors then that is tho rosult", Thon VIC roturnod to tho offico lllld tmro v10 had a convorsntion with tm pur.;_)oso of tryi ng to f ind iooans to ~rovo tho situation. M3' proposals woro first t o coaso all now transport, not to soro any moro . No. 2 t o tronsfor oll thoso so-called exohongo Howo with their families, bocauso throul)l this I would L10t about 20 bous froo. Thon we di soussod tho qu..: sti on about nuw aocnmmodation. Roady made borrooks C')\lld not bo dolivorod booouso thoy woro mt oxisting at that tine so wo disoussod tho possibility of material which was thoro an:l then ovoilablo f or oroction of huts. Tm rosul t of tho conversation w~s a docision to oroot s o-called oarth huto . (Tho IntvrJ.>rotar: I eskod him v1hot he moans bcoouao I did not undorstan:l him, so oo said that holes were du3 in the oarth am t thon fixed throuB}l woodon p larics s n tho t tho oarth should not fall in .JCoin) . (The witnoas c rmtinuos): Tho idva was t o build ap:i:>roximatoly l.j{) of such huts am in each one about 100 prisoDJrs should be acconmodatcd . Vlork should hnvo started on the mxt day orrl tho Oborcrupponfuhror told rro hu was goine to roturn in o fortnight and ho wants to sco tho first hut finis rod . Whon I montion tho so huts, tho so huts aro tho sonn which hod boon def irx:d by om of the vtitnossos throuch mistake 'f'or gas chambers. Tho two other proposals whioh I ma;Jo , No. 1 nb •more transports, ari.I No . 2 l'C -tr Q Dir1 Pohl UY.Jn return to Darlin ? 1... \'/he ro ho wont I do not know, but I beliovo ho continued his jourroy t nwords Dmhomold. J.L~OR \7IN1700D: That nould be o oonveniont nonnnt to adj ourn, sir. THE PRESIDENr: Very well. (at 1720 hours tho Court is aujournod until 09.30 hours on TtPsday, 9th October, 1945) . ------:0:------.- 37 . J Q Did you hovo any convorsation with him ofter his insp:iotion ? A. Yos . His words woro: 11f7hot I havo soon toony in Balson I havo novor soon boforo an.ywroro" . My answor v1ns: "Gl'upponfuhror, I am sorry but I cannot show y Q Di<1 Pohl then return t o !lorlin ? '" Vlho r o ho went I do mt kMw, but I be lieve ho continued his jourmy t owards Doohon·1ald . • liL'.JOR UIN1700D: That nouu.l bo o cnnvoniont r.lcm.rnt to ad journ, sir • THE PRESIDENI': Very \·.'Oll. (At 1720 hours tho Court is adjournod until 09.30 hours on Tu:>sdoy, 9th Octobor, 1945) . ) ------: 0 : ------~ 37 . I j ' J