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Home , Bud Mahurin, Erich Hartmann, Gabby Gabreski, Gerhard Barkhorn, Hannes Trautloft, Hubert Zemke

The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Seattle, Washington

Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 1 of 3)

Recording Date: May 1961

Abstract: This three-part recording contains highlights from a goodwill meeting between the American Fighter Aces Association and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, held in May 1961 in . In part one, the narrator summarizes the event, introduces members of the American and German delegations, and describes notable moments during the visit. Identified speakers include Werner Andres, President of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association; Eugene A. Valencia, Vice President of the American Fighter Aces Association; American fighter ace ; and German fighter ace Walter Krupinski.

Background:

In May 1961, members of the American Fighter Aces Association visited as part of a goodwill meeting between them and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association. During their week-long visit, they toured German air bases and attended various events, including a war memorial dedication in Geisenheim, Germany. Several moments from the meeting were recorded, such as goodwill gestures and conversations between American and German fighter aces.

Restrictions:

Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interview Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.

Transcript:

Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services Index:

Introduction ...... 4

Presentation of ’s award ...... 5

Visit to Büchel Air Force Base ...... 6

Conversation between Hubert Zemke and Walter Krupinski ...... 7

Discussion of point system and German aircraft ...... 9

Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 1 of 3)

[START OF RECORDING]

00:00:00

[Introduction]

NARRATOR: The fighter pilots of the world were honored in Germany this May 1961 by the fighter pilots of two nations who achieved the elite rank of ace, American and German. The occasion: the dedication of a memorial in Geisenheim, Germany, on the shore of the Rhine River. The memorial has been constructed to honor those fighter pilots who lost their lives in aerial combat. The ceremony surrounding its dedication was attended by members of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, Germany, and the Association of Fighter Aces, . Formal invitation for the American group to participate was presented in April 1961 by , German Air Force. At that time, he was visiting Headquarters, North American Air Defense Command, Springs, Colorado.

The Association of Fighter Aces was formed in September 1960 when 75 United States fighter aces met formally, many for the first time, during the Convention in . At that time, James L. Brooks was named President. He is a former chief test pilot for , now an executive with that company. Honorary Chairman is America’s ace of aces, , , now board chairman for Eastern Airlines. Other officers include Vice Presidents Jack Bradley, , ; Gene Valencia, Commander, United States Navy; Executives , the Commissioner of the and, incidentally, the first to surpass Eddie Rickenbacker’s record of World War I; , America’s top living ace; Jim Jabara, America’s top jet ace; Captain Dave McCampbell, the top Navy ace; Glenn Eagleston; Marion Carl; Admiral Jimmy Thach; ; and many more.

Prior to departure from the United States, the following message was received by the Fighter Aces. “The dedication of a monument to the fighter pilots of the world is highly complementary of the efforts between our two nations. I am pleased with the advancements being made by the Association of Fighter Aces and realize that an organization so new has many hurdles to pass and efforts are greatest during this period. My best wishes for a successful journey and dedication. Sincerely, Thomas D. White, General, United States Air Force, Chief of Staff.”

The gentleman who met the American delegation of fighter aces in Rhein-Main, Frankfurt, Germany, was Mr. Werner Andres. He speaks through an interpreter.

00:02:42 WERNER ANDRES [via translator]: Gentleman, a cordial welcome is about the only English I can remember right now, which my wife was trying to teach me especially for you, but I have lost my notes for the text. And so I want to apologize for having to use an interpreter at your arrival here in Germany. I hope, gentlemen, you have had a nice trip. And I can assure you that the German fighter pilots are really happy about your visit here to Germany. We know that our both associations will help deepen the good relationship between our two nations.

00:03:21

[Presentation of Werner Mölders’s award]

NARRATOR: The first official visit of the Association of Fighter Aces was at the Hahn Air Force Base at Hahn, Germany, where Colonel Jack S. Jenkins, United States Air Force, Commander of the 50th Tactical Fighter , welcomed members of the United States Association of Fighter Aces. The American aces, visiting Europe for a week at the invitation of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, heard Colonel Jenkins say that it was a thrill for him, as an old , to welcome other old fighter pilots to Hahn. He congratulated the recently formed Fighter Aces on their organization, which he said he believes will come to personify the spirit and devotion to duty which characterized America’s fighter aces during the World Wars and Korea.

Colonel Jenkins went on to say that he, personally, was glad to see so many old friends again. And, in reference to World War II, the Colonel said that if 20 years ago anyone had told him that he would be sitting across the table today from German fighter aces, drinking coffee and chatting, he would have thought them crazy. But now he said, “A luncheon such as this goes to show the true spirit behind the NATO concept of partners for peace.” He added, “It’s truly a wonderful thing when people come from all over the world to attend such an affair.”

Colonel Jenkins presented to the German Fighter Pilots’ Association an award that was to be presented to Werner Mölders, the first German ace to attain the victory status of 100 confirmed victories. This award never reached Mölders but was captured and remained a souvenir until recently. The interesting fact concerning this award is that Colonel Jenkins, after his release from a German prisoner-of-war camp, was awaiting transportation to the United States when an enlisted man of the RAF offered the Colonel the award for the equivalent of five American dollars. It has remained in his possession until this time. The decoration is approximately 12 by 12 inches, embossed in very heavy pure gold. This award was intended for the first, and subsequent, fighter pilots attaining a confirmed 100th victory. This particular award was intended for Werner Mölders, and this is particularly significant in that he was the first pilot in history to attain this goal. And as such, it created for Mölders a position in World War II not unlike Richthofen in World War I. And so we realize the significance in the return of this award to the German people. A very fine gesture on the part of Colonel Jack S. Jenkins. Now, it is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Werner Andres, President of the German Fighter Pilots’ Association.

00:06:05

WA [via translator]: Thank you very much for your broad-minded presentation. I believe that the handover of this special document really is in the same meaning, aspects of our present meeting and will further deepen and confirm our good relationships and contacts. We think that we fighter pilots have a good supposition for such relationship. We, of course, are not god-like, but we are only human beings with many weak and a few good characteristics. We all fighter pilots belong to the same type of people and have always got along very good and had always an excellent understanding. We have already found out and noticed in these few hours that we have been together that you gentlemen from the American Fighters Aces Association, exactly like us, only pay attention to the really important things of life. We believe that this meeting and the get- together of our two associations is of quite some importance for the future. The political situation of the world forces our nations to unity. For the free world, it will be important that our unity and alliance not only is a matter of sense, but comes out of our hearts. We are sure that your visits, you gentlemen from the States, and your friendly hospitality [unintelligible 00:07:41] and the gentlemen of your base, already have served this purpose. I’ll, of course, hand this document over to Mrs. Mölders and, again, thank you very much for the presentation and handover of this document. Thank you.

00:07:55

NARRATOR: After Mr. Andres had finished speaking, which we have just heard through his interpreter, Commander Gene Valencia, himself a fighter ace and Vice President of the Fighter Aces Association, asked the interpreter about the decoration.

EUGENE A. VALENCIA: This has certainly been an honor to be here on such a momentous occasion. Would you explain the significance of the decoration?

TRANSLATOR: Well, this document was presented to Colonel Werner Mölders when he received this award to the Oak Leaf of the Knight’s Cross. Werner was the first fighter pilot with more than 100 victories. He was not only a good pilot, but he always has been symbolic to us German fighter pilots here. And he was, for us, practically what Richthofen was in World War I.

[Visit to Büchel Air Force Base]

NARRATOR: And during their stay in Germany, the fighter aces visited many more places and many more people. One of the highlights was Büchel Air Force Base, which is under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Walter Krupinski, one of the many High German aces. He has a victory record of 197. 00:09:03

NARRATOR: At Büchel, they met such people as , the 39-year-old ace of aces. He was with the [unintelligible 00:09:09] that was delivered to the Russians and remained there, sentenced to 25 years at hard labor. He was released only after Chancellor Adenauer visited in 1955, making him one of the last prisoners of the war to be released. Wolfgang Späte, who commanded the Rocket Test Group in 1944 and was one of the first military men to fly a rocket ship, the Me 163. General , with a record of 53 victories, is one of the leaders in the new German Air Force. Ed Neumann, who was the instructor of a man named Marseille [Hans-Joachim Marseille], who other fighter aces say was one of the best. Marseille was lost without trace or claim after attaining an outstanding number of victories. [Lützow?], after attaining 100 victories early in the war, was relegated to what we might call a “ground-pounding” assignment after considerable strife with Göring and Hitler. Assi Hahn, who joined the Luftwaffe before the war, had more than 60 aerial victories. During the 21st of February 1943, he was forced down with engine trouble and spent seven years as a . He wrote an excellent book titled I Tell the Truth. , born in 1919, by 1943 a Group Captain. He has more than 1,100 combat missions and was downed three times. As an ace with 301 aerial victories, he is second only to Erich Hartmann, who has 352. Georg Eder, with 36 four-engine bombers shot down during daylight. He is the man responsible for devising effective tactics against bomber formations. Pips Priller, 101 aerial victories, including 11 four-engine bombers. Erich Mix, fighter pilot during World War I, credited with 33 victories. In 1942 and ’43, he ran up another 16 aerial victories. These are just a few of the German aces who exchanged stories and memories with the United States fighter aces during their reunion in Germany.

00:11:14

[Conversation between Hubert Zemke and Walter Krupinski]

NARRATOR: One of the United States aces at the gathering was Colonel Hubert Zemke, respectfully and affectionately called Colonel “Hub.” He was commanding officer of the 56th Fighter Group in during World War II and at the present is Chief of the Air Section at the Military Air Advisory Group in , Spain. Hear him now as he chats with Lieutenant Colonel Krupinski, Commander of Büchel Air Force Base.

HUBERT ZEMKE: On this occasion, amigos, being from Spain, I desire to take the opportunity to tell you what a marvelous occasion this is to me with the Fighter Pilots’ Association of Germany and, in particular, at this moment I am to converse with one of their top aces, whose base we are presently visiting. And he has the 33rd Jagdbombergeschwader, which means in English the Fighter Bomber Unit, equipped with F-84Fs and a top organization in all respects and in all areas that I have seen. It is incidental to the point that this gentleman and I have been in the same air masses on various occasions in the past, I have found. While I was an observer in the and, on occasion, visiting Moscow from the north, that he had his Geschwader on a very close front, at least 60 miles away from me, in the drive on Moscow. In the same respect, I find, after I had returned to the United States and had gone—had organized a group of P-47s and gone to England, this man was returned to take command of a fighter unit in North Germany. Over this same area, there have been many a long hours—many a long, sweating hours, I might say—in the defense of our bombers against his same forces. This being the first occasion of an American fighter ace reunion with a German fighter ace reunion, the atmosphere is filled with stories on both sides, occasions on both sides, events on both sides, and is certainly something in the best interests of the entire free world.

00:13:54

HZ: Let me ask him a few questions. They have a terrific monument that they have built in honor of all of their fallen fighters in the pilot field. This is at the town of Geisenheim, lying on the Rhine, not too far from . We are to go tomorrow. We will view this. We will dedicate—or give a dedication in respect to those fallen dead, too, in honor of their efforts for their cause. It will be a real occasion for all of us assembled here. Let me ask how this developed, the construction of this monument.

00:14:42

WALTER KRUPINSKI: After the war, we had in Western Germany every year a meeting of all former pilots at Geisenheim. The reason for this, for selecting this village, was that it was nearly in the middle of Germany, from the north to the south and also from the east to the west. On the other hand, there were some fighters at this village and they’re organizing every year that—this meeting. That was the reason why we were selecting this place, also, for our monument. There were a lot of speeches before we constructed it, where we should have it, and every time, nearly everybody was saying, “We should have it at .” But the fact that was not possibility at that time, we then decided to have it at Geisenheim at the Rhine River.

HZ: I have seen the picture of the designer and the architect for this monument. Would you kindly tell me this man’s name? I saw that he was also wounded. He is a former fighter ace, as I recall, and he is also quite known throughout your country. If at all possible, can you give me his name and what the purpose of the two eagles are on the top of the monument?

WK: The name of the designer is Klaus Seelenmeyer, and the purpose for the design has been said that the two eagles will fly over not only Germany but will fly every time and that the idea was to tell our fallen comrades that they were still flying and that we are still flying.

HZ: Let me ask you a bit about the combat in the north, around Dümmer Lake and Hanover and [Sella?], as the bomber streams of the Allied Forces, the Americans, came in. What were your most difficult encounters in this respect? Can you recall any at all or the difficult situations in this odds? 00:17:31

WK: Well, one of the most important thing was that every time we were very, very small number and when we were looking around we saw a very big number of your fighters. Especially my group was what they called a high-cover fighter for our other fighters who had to attack the bombers. And we especially, every time, got the first stroke from your fighters because we were above our other fighters and had to protect these. And so normally, it was most difficult work for us. And I can tell you the story. Normally, we had 50 pilots in a group at that time. And every month, we had a completely new outfit because they were gone. Not all of them were dead, but a lot of them in hospital and a lot of them in recreation center and so on. And everyone, he had a total of 100%, round about.

00:18:31

HZ: In this same respect, I can now recall and have often wondered, why in the tactics that we used, putting a squadron of fighters on each flank of the bombers and one for top cover, who these odd individuals were that came up and hit our top cover, thus pulling off the side squadrons and scattering here and there. For your information, this has a definite confirmed number of victories of 176. This does not mean four engines, but this means one each airplane per victory. And also, compared with ours, means that he has gone on many, many a mission. In my own respect, after a year-and-a-half and having gained only 31 [unintelligible 00:19:33] in 155 missions against Germany, this gentleman here was able to survive 1,040 missions against our forces. In the future, may I wish him the best of success on many, many better missions in the interests of the Western forces.

[Discussion of point system and German aircraft]

NARRATOR: And then Colonel Zemke discussed the point system that was used to ascertain victory status.

HZ: Well, the point system, of course, knowing how difficult it was to fight against the German Air Force and how they wiggled and how they fought against us considerably, and adding the number of missions and the number of efforts in back of us, we have continually challenged the number of German victories. Our top aces, for instance, the present one, Colonel Gabreski, who was in the same unit that I commanded, has a total now between World War II and Korea at 40 victories. I know how desperately Gabby used to fight, and we could not conceive how someone could shoot down over about 50 or 60 aircraft.

The situation remains that, in the German—in fighting for their homeland—they went up fast in the air, intercepted, were down at another base, refueled, and up again. They had the opportunity, of course, if damaged, to return and turn over to another airplane. They had to use every man, every pilot. And if the boy was able to survive at all, they then used him to the final end. As you have heard from the Lieutenant Colonel, his losses were very, very high and he is most fortunate, in all respects, as brought out, that he was able to survive through the very many missions. For an American to be wounded five times, this is many clusters on the and we’d probably been sent back to the United States. The number of belly landings and damage means that he was experienced in the most terrific of combat at all times and taking the greatest risk. In this same respect, from their president, the fighter—German Fighter Pilots President, Mr. Andres, I find that of the total of some 20,000 pilots that they had record of, there exists in the order of 1,000 to 1,500 at present, which is quite a loss rate. This same respect in our areas, we were more tolerant and sent our people for—home for rest and leave during the course of the time. Now, let me ask you, of the German aircraft—the Me 109s, the Fw 190s—were you able to enter a unit of the Messerschmitt 262? You flew, for the most part, what type of aircraft?

00:22:57

WK: Most of the time, I flew the 109. That means from the beginning of the war till January ‘44. Then I changed over with my group to the 190, but the so-called long-nosed 190. And at the middle of March till the end of the war, ‘45, I flew the 262. It was our first jet that we had. I flew it in that squadron of General Galland.

HZ: I recall that your tactics were, at that time—I’m talking of the 262, the Me 262—was that you were flying in singles or pairs. We saw a few of you and could never catch up with you, could actually not combat with you because of the superior performance, superior altitude. I never saw great numbers—that is, the masses that you had before, the formations that you had before. Was your tactic at the time to fight individually?

00:24:01

WK: I think there was no tactic at all. It was a brand new aircraft for us, and we had to find everybody his own technique. On the other hand, there were a lot of difficulty with the maintenance, so the biggest number of aircraft of Type 262, what we had in the air at that time, was, as far as I mentioned it, I think eight only. And this eight, we had to find out how to fly together. And so we cannot say it was our tactic to fight individually, but the point was, we normally were alone. Especially after the first attack, you never saw the other one because he was too fast anyway.

HZ: This is true. I’ve often wondered why they were individually—and streaking fast, as probably noted by the other fight pilots in the United States. You could see the high contrails for a second, in the dive through the bomber formation, where one or two B-17s were plucked out, up again. And in our endeavor to encounter, there would be two or three circles. They would engage us, swoop down, up again. It was a matter—the best we could do with our P-51s and P-47s were to turn in and cause a head-on attack, which had very little damaging effect. Now, of the conventional aircraft, between the Fw 190 and the Me 109, in my preference, if I were a— had been a German fighter pilot, I have the feeling that the Fw 190 would have been a nicer airplane to fly. This I cannot confirm, but what is your personal opinion relative to these two airplanes?

WK: The 109 was a tricky aircraft, especially on takeoff and landing but, in respect that I flew nearly 90% of all my combat missions, I was feeling much more confident on a 109 than on other aircraft at all. And I think every pilot will say it in the same way. When you fly only a few missions on another aircraft and fly the whole time on one type—that was, for me, the 109—then you feel more confident in the type you flew with such a lot of missions.

00:26:21

HZ: Let me ask you. I saw a very few, as you call them, needle-nosed Fw 190s. These Fw 190s, as I understood, had a larger engine—not a larger—a more powerful engine, and the performance seemed to be much improved in this Fw 190. We were greatly concerned—at that time, I was flying P-47s—because of this superior performance. What happened to that airplane that we did not see increased production?

00:26:54

WK: I would say it came too late. It was a most important [unintelligible 00:26:59]. They started to change things around about in summer of ‘44. And at that time, they had a big number of aircraft of 109 and the production line was in progress. And so they couldn’t change it fully and were changing it so fast. That was the reason why this long-nosed 190 came very, very slowly into the service. But the performance of these long-nosed 190 was much better than the 109, especially in lower altitudes. In the higher altitudes, we had a special 109—specially, we flew it as a fighter cover—and in higher altitudes, this 109 was real good.

HZ: During odd combat, we were being scouted. This means we were being looked at. And no doubt, in your warning of the country, a special type of aircraft was built to fly very, very high. This was above the level of our P-51s and P-47s. What type of aircraft was that? It would follow the bomber stream, the formation, no doubt calling back to position over the ground, I believe. It—because we could not get up to engage it, there was no harm. We endeavored to get at these people, but I could never exactly tell what type of aircraft this was. Do you know of this system at all?

WK: I must frankly tell you I do not know it. But the only type who could be it was a 109 with these special tanks for flying in very high altitude. They had a special injection and with this injection, you could go very high. And you had the possibility to be very fast at this height. So it may be that it was one of these 109s with these high injection.

00:29:02 HZ: Colonel, we will certainly welcome the occasion to be at the dedication tomorrow. I wish you good luck and all of the success with your command in JaboG 33. And as an incidental gesture, I hope you take the occasion to visit me in Spain, where my house is open to you. As in Spanish, mi casa es su casa.

WK: I hope I can come very soon, and I will be glad to spend a weekend with you in your house and with your family. Thank you very much.

00:29:39

[END OF RECORDING]