Transcript of Oral History Interview with Abukar Ali

Abukar Ali Narrator

Ahmed Ismail Yusuf Interviewer

June 28, 2014 Saint Paul, Minnesota

Abukar Ali -AA Ahmed Ismail Yusuf -AY

AY: It is June 28, 2014. We are in Saint Paul, Minnesota. I am here with Abukar Mohamed Ali, who agreed to be interviewed. Abukar, welcome to the interview.

AA: Thank you.

AY: I am going to go back. This is Ahmed Ismail Yusuf, recording or interviewing for the Minnesota Historical Society Somali Oral History Project. Once again, I am glad that you agreed to the interview. So the first question is, when were you born and where were you born? I don’t think most of Somalis actually are comfortable with that question, but let’s hear it.

AA: I’ll tell you, I have no problem. I was born and brought up in the former British Somaliland, which later became part of the Somali Republic, and I also had my early education there at the Amoud school, and that’s it.

AY: And approximately do you remember where you were born and what year?

AA: Yeah. I was probably born in 1941. And I was born in Aware [Awaare], which at that time was part of Somaliland, but later became ceded to Ethiopia by the British government.

AY: Aware?

AA: Aware, yeah. I was born there, and I was brought up in Somaliland.

AY: And how many siblings were in the family?

AA: Oh, numerous. My father used to marry a number of wives, four at a time, and we were almost thirty of us.

AY: Thirty.

AA: Yeah. We are a large family. We are a large family.

AY: So did you grow up in Aware itself, or you had a hand in the nomad life?

AA: No, I had no part in the nomadic life. I was brought up on Borama [Boorama] and Hargeisa [Hargeysa], these two cities.

AY: Where did you start in school?

AA: I started Aware elementary school, three years, and then I went over to Borama, to Amoud school, intermediate school.

AY: So what I wanted to know about you is just what was the feeling of nationalism then, and what was the Somali identity to you when you were growing up?

AA: When I was growing up—that was in the fifties—Somali patriotism was very strong because the people of Somaliland at that time were struggling to become independent, and there was a lot of literature concerning freedom and all that and against the colonial administration. So people were really patriotic. They were very patriotic.

AY: I think at the time, also, even though it was completely different, there was sort of a somewhat division or tribal division. What would you say if you compare, even though the rest of the world just exactly know us as a tribal nation or a clannish nation? I mean, could you tell any difference between the tribal turmoils now and the tribal issues at the time?

AA: First of all, I don’t call it tribalism in Somalia. I call it clannism.

AY: What’s the difference? To me they are one and the same.

AA: No, no, there is a difference. A tribe is a group of people who are supposed to be speaking the same language and have the same culture. That is a tribe.

AY: And it could be anywhere.

AA: Alternatively, you could call it an ethnic group also. All Somalis are one ethnic group or one tribe. But they are divided into clans. You see, we are one tribe, because culturally and linguistically, we are the same group. Therefore we are one tribe, but the division comes down when you come to clans. Yeah, we have so many clans, different clans, but we are one tribe.

AY: So how is that clan division of then—that had the nationalism and all that—different than the one that is destroying the nation?

AA: The clan division in the fifties and forties was not as strong as it became later, after independence. At that time patriotism was stronger than the clan affiliation. Patriotism was strong at that time, and people were fighting for independence, fighting for freedom. They were united. Although, the clans existed, but they existed for social things. You know, like burials—if you die, the clan buries you. Or if you become bankrupt, your clan helps you. Or if you have

2 aggressors, your clan comes to your help. That kind of thing existed, of course. Even then, it existed. But generally people were united in their fight and their struggle for freedom.

AY: So going back to that itself, you yourself—we’re just exactly getting to that. You yourself were born to a clan that we could say right now was actually a minority in the northern part of Somalia.

AA: Yes, yes.

AY: But not only that you actually survived, but you were part and parcel of that community.

AA: Yes.

AY: So did you, when you were growing up, were you alienated or did you feel any different?

AA: No, I was not alienated. There was no discrimination, whether you are a minority or a majority—we were all equal. There was no problem. Nobody had a problem of discrimination or alienation.

AY: So the number and the strength of the majority or the major tribes did not impose on you.

AA: No. They themselves were subdivided. The major ones themselves were subdivided into, say, three major subclans, and they were balancing on each other. They, themselves, they were balancing each other, so nobody thought about the minor clans.

AY: Oh, so while they’re watching each other…

AA: They were busy watching each other.

AY: They were busy watching each other.

AA: Yes, yes.

AY: And if we even named them…

AA: The minorities were safe.

AY: Yes. [chuckles]

AA: Minorities were safe, because they were busy eyeing each other, and, you know, competing with each other for the higher jobs and that kind of thing.

AY: Sizing up each other, yes.

AA: They were busy with themselves.

AY: So in case somehow or other that some people may be curious of what those tribes were, would you name them?

AA: Yes. Like for instance, the Isaaq was the major clan there. The Isaaq were actually the major clan, the biggest clan.

AY: In the northern part of Somalia.

AA: The northern part. I am talking about Somaliland. We’re not in Somalia yet.

AY: Yes.

AA: That’s pre-independence Somaliland. The major subclan were the Isaaq, followed by the Dhulbahante [Dulbahante] and the Gadabuursi, these two other subclans.

AY: Dhulbahante, which it is Darod [Daarood]?

AA: Darod, yeah, Darod. It is a subclan of Darod, and Gadabuursi, which is in Borama, in that area. Now, the Isaaq themselves are divided into three major subclans. Habr Jaalo, Habr Garhadjis, and Habr Awal. So these three major Isaaq subclans were…

AY: Watching each other.

AA: Exactly. And competing for big jobs. So the other minority clans were comfortable. No problem, because they were busy with each other.

AY: Yes. So to add to it, as long as we are there, there were then Warsangali.

AA: Yes, they are the Darod, yeah. The Dhulbahante and Warsangali are Darod, too.

AY: The Issa also?

AA: The Issa is another minority subclan in the extreme northwest. But they are not in the mainstream of politics. At least they were not at that time.

AY: Were not into that.

AA: They were not in the mainstream politics. Gadabuursi was. Gadabuursi and Dhulbahante.

AY: Was a contender.

AA: Gadabuursi and Dhulbahante later formed their own political party, actually, to compete with the major Isaaq political party.

AY: And what was that party called?

AA: The USP, the United Somali Party. They formed what is called the United Somali Party. The Darod and the Gadabuursi, Borama and Las Anod [Laascaanood] formed a political party, at the time known at the time as USP, or United Somali Party, to compete with the major SNL, Somali National League, which consisted of—

AY: Was predominantly Isaaq.

AA: Predominantly Isaaq, of course. Almost ninety-nine percent Isaaq. They were competing with those.

AY: And your particular clan, minority clan, in that part of the world was—is Fiqishini.

AA: Yeah, Fiqishini, which is a sub-sub-subclan of Hawiye, yeah.

AY: Yes, which Somalis would normally be surprised that actually Hawiye is…

AA: Living in the north.

AY: Hawiye which is living in the middle of the northern part of Somalia.

AA: Yeah. We live among the Darod, Dhulbahante subclan, as well as partly with the Isaaq.

AY: So were you politically also affiliated with them?

AA: No, we were not even politically active at that time, in the fifties. I was a student, most of the time. Most of the time in the fifties, I was a student.

AY: You didn’t care about politics.

AA: I didn’t care about politics, except when it comes to patriotism. I used to take part in demonstrations, demonstrating against the British.

AY: Colonialism.

AA: Colonial—of ceding part of our territory to Ethiopia. Namely Aware, when they ceded to Ethiopia.

AY: Which was 1954.

AA: Fifty-five. Yeah. We were demonstrating against the British government.

AY: So fast-forward—not actually fast-forward, but then if you just try to describe your childhood, what would you say? If you try to describe it, you know, was it a happy childhood?

AA: Yes. It was a happy childhood, really.

AY: What’s your recollection of the child that is just exactly growing up in that…

AA: My recollection is I was a happy child. I was good in education, and I loved soccer, used to play soccer, that kind of thing.

AY: What position did you play?

AA: I used to play in the left wing, because I kick with the left.

AY: Number seven. Oh, I mean, eleven.

AA: Eleven is it? I don’t remember. That was a long time ago.

AY: A million years ago. [chuckles]

AA: Oh yes. Sixty years ago.

AY: Sixty years ago.

AA: Yeah, sixty years ago. It was happy. I was a happy child.

AY: So, Amoud—one of the cream of the crop.

AA: The present chairman of Amoud, do you know him? Suleiman Gulaid?

AY: Yes.

AA: Do you know him?

AY: Well, I know of him, but I do not know him personally.

AA: He is my classmate at Amoud.

AY: He is the president of the university?

AA: Yes. He is my classmate at Amoud. Early in my education, he was one of my classmates.

AY: And was he a close friend?

AA: No, he was not a friend.

AY: No, he was not. [chuckles]

AA: He was not a friend. He was just a classmate and a colleague. Yeah.

AY: That was that.

AA: That’s that.

AY: So you graduated from Amoud what year?

AA: Nineteen fifty-seven.

AY: Nineteen fifty-seven. What was in store for you?

AA: Fifty-eight, I’d begun working.

AY: What class were you then?

AA: Intermediate…

AY: No, what I mean is how many classes ahead of you—how many classes graduated before you graduated? You were still maybe the…

AA: So many classes before me.

AY: Oh, really?

AA: Yeah. When I was in the intermediate, people were in the secondary school, same place, Amoud Secondary School. There were people there like Ismail Ali Abokor. He was in secondary school when I was in intermediate.

AY: Ismail Ali Abokor, who happened to be the…

AA: Somalia’s vice president.

AY: Vice president of…

AA: Somalia.

AY: Somalia.

AA: Yeah, he was in…

AY: Siad Barre’s [Siyaad Barre’s] era.

AA: Yeah. He was in the secondary school when I was in intermediate school. I remember him. We met in Nairobi one day. We are sitting in, you know, the place in Nairobi. We are talking and discussing about the past and the revolutionary government.

AY: Right after the collapse of Somalia?

AA: Yeah, after the collapse. And I told Ismail, “I remember even the way you used to run.” When he ran, he was stiff.

AY: Oh, because you were looking—you were few, and he was one of the people that you were looking at, too.

AA: Yeah. I was younger. And I remember when the secondary school were playing soccer, he used to run with his hands stiff, like that. He used to run like that, in a peculiar way. I remember that very well. I told him. He laughed. He really laughed. [both chuckle]

AY: So tell me, then, when you graduated from Amoud, then you started working for who?

AA: I started working for the British government, the colonial government, as an agriculture instructor. I was given a little bit of training in agriculture and became an agricultural instructor. I was in charge of Beer experimental farm, government-owned farm, in Beer near Burao [Burco], eighteen miles from Burao. I worked there for a year. Then I wasn’t satisfied. I came over to Mogadishu.

AY: Was that your first time in Mogadishu?

AA: Yeah, yeah. I came over to Mogadishu. Within fifteen days I got a job, Sinclair Oil Company.

AY: Which is run by Americans.

AA: Yeah. It was an American oil company that was doing exploration for oil in both Ethiopia and Somalia. I was a radio operator for the company, dealing with the reports from the drilling and also used to deal with the aircraft. They have aircraft, and they were close to Nairobi or Galkayo [Gaalkacyo]. Communication, I was in charge of its communication, dealing with it.

AY: How long did you work for them?

AA: Almost two years, and then I left the country.

AY: Why did you leave the country?

AA: Sixty-one. I wasn’t satisfied. I was a very adventurous young man. I was never satisfied with my life there, so I jumped ship again.

AY: Economically or politically or both.

AA: Both, both.

AY: Okay, so you jumped to… Yes?

AA: I left there. I left Somalia, ’61. July ’61. Exactly one year after independence.

AY: July ’61. You still remember. [chuckles]

AA: Yeah, I remember very well.

AY: So where did you go?

AA: Because they were electing a president. Aden Abdullah Osman won the election.

AY: Aden Abdullah Osman, the first president of Somalia.

AA: Yeah, he was elected president again. He was temporarily a president, an interim president, from ’60, and then officially he was elected in ’61. I was waiting for that election, because he was competing with Ismail Ali Jimale. He was competing with that. If Ismail won, [Mohamed Ibrahim] Egal would have become the prime minister.

AY: Egal was from the north…

AA: Would have become the prime minister. And if Aden Abdullah wins, probably Abdirashid Ali Shermarke would become the prime minister.

AY: And that was known.

AA: It was a known fact.

AY: And did they campaign as such?

AA: Yes, exactly, they were campaigning together.

AY: Okay.

AA: So I was waiting. If Ismail Ali Jimale won and Egal became a prime minister, I wouldn’t have left the country. I would have stayed.

AY: So because you saw yourself as a northern Somali, you were rooting for…

AA: I was hoping for a good future, if that’s the combination. I was hoping for a good future. But when the other party won, I lost hope and I left the country. I said, “No.” It’s more of the same. Clannism, clannism. Clannism, clannism. I was tired of it. I didn’t like it. The moment it became independent, they started. They started alienating the Somaliland people, right from day one.

AY: And the irony of it is just that exactly, see, if it were the way that we are known or being described, one would assume that exactly you would be satisfied because of your origin.

AA: Because of my being Hawiye.

AY: Being Hawiye.

AA: But I’m not that way. I’m not that way.

AY: Even then.

AA: Even then. I was never. I was never a clannist. Never, I was never a clannist. I never believed in clan politics.

AY: How did you escape?

AA: I don’t know. Maybe my family background. I had come from a very religious family. Very religious. My father was well known in the north as one of the top Sufi religious leaders, and I think it’s our background that made us different from the other people. Maybe. That background of Sufism and spiritualism. Yeah, that kind of thing.

AY: So nationalism was in your blood, but clannism…

AA: Yeah. Nationalism agreed with my ideology. But clan politics did not.

AY: So when you left Mogadishu…

AA: I left Mogadishu. I came to the rest of East Africa—Kenya, Uganda, I was in Tanzania also. I went to Zambia at one time. Eventually I came to work in Nairobi, ’71, for a British company which imported motor cars. I worked for a while, and then later, ’73, I worked for the BBC [British Broadcasting Corporation]. The monitoring service of the BBC. It’s a department there…

AY: British Broadcasting Corporation.

AA: Yeah, broadcasting corporation. But not in the broadcasting department—in the monitoring department, that’s the news monitoring department. I worked for five years in Nairobi. Finally, I was the assistant supervisor of the newsroom when I left there. I left there in ’78, after the Somali-Ethiopian War. And from there I was doing freelance translating for international organizations in Nairobi as well as in Mogadishu, working with the UN [United Nations], USAID [United Stated Agency for International Development]—all kinds of organizations, and doing translations for them.

AY: So on assignment basis or contract basis?

AA: Contract basis.

AY: How long would one last? Or was it monthly, yearly, five or three?

AA: No. Only assignments—do this job, get paid for it. You do that job, you get paid for it, and that kind of thing. Freelancing.

AY: Were you making enough money or were you okay?

AA: Enough to live on. Even when I came here, I still continued with that same profession.

AY: Go ahead.

AA: Then I came over to the US in 2001. I came with my wife. I was still doing translations for various organizations, including Mayo Clinic and other nonprofits. I was always a freelance translator.

AY: So in high school, I mean, one of the things that I actually came to know about you is just that…

AA: Never have time for college, anyway.

AY: Well, that’s my point, I mean…

AA: I never have time for college. I was busy.

AY: How is it that your writing is actually…

AA: I am self-educated. You can see the books. See my library. I am self-educated. I used to read a lot, all the time.

AY: So you started reading even from high school or…

AA: Exactly, right from high school.

AY: Self-taught?

AA: Yeah.

AY: Because what I came to know is the majority of Somalis—I do not know about other nationalities—but a majority of Somalis, even those that we call educated, are actually weak in writing. So your writing is great.

AA: Oh, thank you. I did GCE [General Certificate of Education] by correspondence in the sixties. GCE all level.

AY: Which meant what?

AA: English language. General Certificate of Education, London University, English Language. I took a correspondence course in the early sixties, and almost completed the course, though I never sat for the exam. But I made use of that class to improve my English also.

AY: Tell me, though, when you are just exactly going through life, when did you start having family, too?

AA: Oh, early seventies.

AY: So when you are in Mogadishu, you are married already.

AA: Twice I was in Mogadishu. One is the early time—1959, ’60, ’61, I was not married. I was a single man. I came to marry in Nairobi, ’73. This lady, I met her in 1973.

AY: In Nairobi.

AA: Yeah, in Nairobi.

AY: So how many kids?

AA: Four.

AY: And where are they?

AA: One daughter is married. She is in Nairobi. And three sons. One of them is in London. He is a health technologist. He graduated from Stockholm University with a bachelor’s degree in radiography.

AY: What’s his name?

AA: Mohamed. The other one graduated from Macalester College.

AY: Here.

AA: Here, in Saint Paul.

AY: When?

AA: Two thousand eleven. He took a bachelor’s degree in economics, and then he joined the Peace Corps. He just completed two years of Peace Corps work yesterday, day before yesterday.

AY: What’s his name?

AA: Mohamed, too.

AY: Oh, Mohamed, too! [chuckles] That’s unlike Somalis—two Mohameds, same father.

AA: And then he came to Nairobi from Kampala, he came to Nairobi this week. He is going to spend Ramadan there with his sister who lives there, and then he will come over sometime in August. He will come home in August. He’s the third son and the last born. He is my last born.

AY: Oh, is he?

AA: There is another one who works here at Hennepin County.

AY: What’s his name?

AA: Ismail. Maybe you met him.

AY: Maybe I met him.

AA: He is an assistant case manager at Hennepin County. Wuxuu ka shaqay [he works], he works at the OMS, Office of Multicultural Services.

AY: Wuxuu ka shaqaya [He works there]? Okay, great. Also, before you actually came here, you were diagnosed with a rare…

AA: Oh, early, yeah, sometime in the mid-nineties, around ’96, I was diagnosed.

AY: You were in Nairobi?

AA: In Nairobi, I was diagnosed with myositis.

AY: How did you spell that?

AA: Myositis. I think m-y-o… Just write it down—m-y-o-s-i-t-i-s. Something like that. Then if you add poly- at the beginning, you add poly here—p-o-l-y. My particular condition is called polymyositis. There is myositis, which is the general name, and then there is a subdivision that is called polymyositis. So mine is polymyositis. I got afflicted with that condition back in Nairobi in 1996.

AY: What’s the cause of it? Do they know what the cause of it is?

AA: Several causes. It could come just like that, on its own. Or you could get it if you have cancer, any type of cancer, you could get that, too—myositis. Different reasons.

AY: What does it do to you? What does it do to the body?

AA: It’s an immunity condition. Your own immunity is fighting against your body. Instead of defending you against the illness, it’s fighting against you. It destroys your muscles.

AY: So it’s also a degenerative disease.

AA: Yeah, degenerative, yeah. It destroys your muscles. I went down to fifty kilograms and was hospitalized in Nairobi. Doctors thought I was going to die within that week. They didn’t know what was wrong with me. No diagnosis.

AY: They have no clue.

AA: They have never seen such a case. And then, fortunately, a certain professor of Nairobi University’s medical school was called to come and have a look at me. And then when he saw the blood sample he knew it was myositis. And then he started prescribing steroids, prednisone. Within a matter of days I was out of hospital and went home.

AY: So he probably saved you.

AA: Yeah, he saved my life. That guy saved my life.

AY: So right now you are on medication.

AA: I have been on that prednisone for some years, and it has side effects. One of its side effects—it raises your blood sugar. Another side effect—it brings hypertension. So I got hypertension now, and I got diabetes, Type II. So I am on medication for both of them.

AY: But also, while you’re just exactly battling with all that…

AA: And then I got bronchitis. I’ve been smoking for more than fifty years, and I got chronic bronchitis.

AY: Are you still smoking?

AA: No. I stopped in 2011.

AY: Because of the health threats, or…

AA: Yeah, I stopped in 2011, about three years ago.

AY: So with all that complication, it has not slowed you down. You are actually politically active, your mind is sharp. You are aware from…

AA: I keep active.

AY: But you do follow Somali…

AA: I keep active from within. I don’t go out much. I keep active, you know, from within.

AY: About seven years ago, six years ago, though, you were very active.

AA: Yeah, at that time I used to go around and be active outside. Actually, I and another friend of mine founded the first Somali political action group in 2004.

AY: And what was the name?

AA: Somali American Political Action Committee, it was called.

AY: Who was the other guy?

AA: Yassin Sakhraan.

AY: Oh, okay.

AA: Two of us. He was the chairman. I was the most active member, began the whole thing and wrote down the incorporation articles. Everything, I was doing it on my own, but I let him lead it. He was the chairman. I mean, he had a following of a huge—

AY: Why did you start that? What did you see? What was the need?

AA: The need was to politicize and sensitize the Somali people.

AY: So did you see that even then, about seven, eight years ago, that we had a viable…

AA: Yeah, I saw it, just as it happened now. I saw it was coming, and they needed, Somalis needed sensitization.

AY: And how were you received? How did the state and city…

AA: We were received very well by the Democratic Party. We were received very well by the leadership of the Democratic Party. Senators, congressmen, everybody—yeah! We were well received. We attended the state convention, DFL [Democratic Farmer-Labor Party] state convention in Duluth, that year, that same year. I didn’t go. Yassin was leading our delegation of thirty men and women to the convention.

AY: Two thousand four, was it?

AA: Yeah, 2004.

AY: Thirty.

AA: Thirty members! Can you imagine? Democrats were astonished. They have never seen blacks coming to the convention, even African-American blacks.

AY: No kidding.

AA: Yeah.

AY: So, then, you were thirty Somalis and possibly two African Americans?

AA: Yes, possibly. The first delegate elected to represent Minnesota to the national convention in Boston that year was a Somali delegate. First elected.

AY: Was it Hussein Samatar, or who was it?

AA: No, no, no. This guy who was working for the county. Jibril.

AY: Oh, Mohamed Jibril.

AA: He was elected by the convention to represent Minnesota in Boston, the national convention. He was the first one elected.

AY: So did the political power play that we are showing now—you started it. It started early.

AA: It started at that time. Yes, at that time. We started it.

AY: We were ten years old. [chuckles]

AA: Yes! We started at that time, me and Yassin. We were very active, very active.

AY: Yes. Yassin is…

AA: He is very sick now.

AY: He is very sick. Is he in hospice?

AA: No, no.

AY: Where is he now?

AA: They took him out of—Augustin, is it?

AY: Yes, Augustin.

AA: They took him out of it, and they took him to a private residence. He is taken care of by one of his sons that is taking care of him. That was the first Somali political movement here in Minnesota. It was the first movement.

AY: And when did it occur to you that exactly somehow we may be able to contribute to the political process or participate?

AA: We are already participating. We are trying to elect a guy to the House of Representatives at the end of the year. You might have heard of him—Mohamed Noor?

AY: Mohamed Noor—yes. When he first ran and lost, were you… He actually, he was the first…

AA: He became a board member, education. Board of education.

AY: Right, but prior to that. I think prior to even Abdi Warsame, he ran for a state Senate position. Or state representative. Yeah, he ran for state Senate, actually, and almost won. He was short of 200 votes.

AA: It wasn’t well organized.

AY: That was not well organized?

AA: It wasn’t well organized.

AY: Were you following that, too?

AA: No, no. I know another guy called Warfa also stood for something.

AY: Yes, yes. Warfa tried, too.

AA: All poorly organized. They are all poorly organized. They didn’t sensitize the people, so how do you expect them to come out and vote for you?

AY: But finally, though, Abdi Warsame was well organized and succeeded. As a matter of fact, he surprised…

AA: The first time. That was the first well organized campaign I heard about in the Twin Cities.

AY: So did you read about him?

AA: I met him.

AY: Oh, you met him.

AA: I met him.

AY: Did he call you?

AA: No, he didn’t know me. But somebody invited me to attend an event at the Brian Coyle [Center], and I went there. Actually Abdikarim Bihi invited me and Ilhan Omar. These two invited me, and I went there, Brian Coyle, and then I met Abdi Warsame at that time.

AY: So I should also add the fact that exactly that you are really informed.

AA: Locally. Locally I am informed. That same year, 2004, I joined the board of the Community Action Partnership of Ramsey and Washington Counties, and I became board president from 2008 through 2010. I retired from the board in 2010.

AY: And also not only that are you informed, but today technologically you are on Facebook, you talk to this generation. Your generation—actually your generation—I’m not on Facebook.

AA: And by the way, twice I gave lectures to university students. One to U of M [University of Minnesota] students, Somali students. They asked me to give them a lecture on Somali culture. And another at Concordia University. Also Somali students at Concordia University asked me to talk to them about Somali culture, and I did.

AY: I am surprised, actually, that they even knew that you exist. How did they?

AA: Through their students. Some of the students knew me, and they talked to other students, “Let us invite this old man to come and talk to us about Somali culture some day.” And I went and talked to them.

AY: How did it go?

AA: Good, very well. Even some Oromos attended the U of M lecture. Some Oromos also attended, students. And also another time, there is a professor called Bigelow, Martha Bigelow.

AY: Martha Bigelow.

AA: Yeah, she is in the education and curriculum department.

AY: What school? University of Minnesota?

AA: U of M, education and curriculum department. We came to know each other and she asked me if I could help out with that class one day and answer questions about Somalis. I said, “Okay, no problem.”

AY: How did that go?

AA: It went well. I had students asking, shooting questions at me, and I answered their questions about Somalia. Everything from culture to politics to whatever.

AY: So you are still ready to take them.

AA: Yeah. [chuckles] I had almost two hours we spent in that class.

AY: So right now, as an older statesman, or…

AA: As an elder, as an elder, community elder you can call me.

AY: Well, the community elder who is really well informed, having been through it all—first of all, what do you think of Somalis? I am talking about, actually, back home. Do you have any hope for us?

AA: Yeah, hope is always there. One should never be hopeless. You should always be hopeful, you should always be optimistic. And I am a very optimistic person. I think eventually politics in Somalia will evolve. Eventually it will evolve into a kind of democracy and peaceful transition from the present to the future. I think, yeah. Slowly. It will take time. Very slowly, I think.

AY: Yes, by nature you are an optimist, but do you see anything at times that would lead you or feed your optimism?

AA: Yeah. The way the international community has focused on Somalia over the last two or three years—that gives me hope. The way they are focusing on Somalia.

AY: That somehow or the other that they are going to have some kind of an…

AA: Yeah, affect us, and we might, you know, dust our homeland and become better. That will help us.

AY: And fast-forward—just exactly jumping back to the United States—do you see that hope here? That somehow or other in Minnesota we might influence some kind of a change?

AA: You mean Somali people?

AY: Yes. Somalis who actually were raised or maybe who were born here, or those of us who are still here. Do you think we are going to have any effect on back home politically, economically?

AA: If we want to, we can influence issues. If that’s what people really wanted, they can easily influence issues back home.

AY: In Somalia, positively.

AA: Yes, positively. They can influence.

AY: Where do you think that they can contribute?

AA: I think in many ways. If they send educated people to Somalia to advise the then- government, whoever is in power, to advise them how to do better things, I think we can influence them. We don’t need a job. The good thing about us diaspora people, we don’t need a job from them. We are not asking for a job. We are not asking them to employ us. We are ready to help them and give them advice.

AY: If you are financially well-off, not exactly well-off, but if you secure your bread already, it is just that whatever that you take there is just…

AA: It carries more weight. When you don’t need them, your word carries more weight than when you need them, you see. So they respect if you don’t need them and yet you are ready to advise them. They will respect you. They say, “This guy is patriotic.”

AY: How are we doing here, do you think?

AA: Here I think we are doing well. They are more or less sensitized now to politics. You know Somalis are a political animal, Somalis.

AY: That’s fact, yes.

AA: Because of our nomadic background. Nomads are born politicians.

AY: Why is that?

AA: Nomads are born politicians because a nomad is always concerned with what happens around him or her. Always. He listens to…

AY: They are aware of their surroundings.

AA: Exactly.

AY: And that’s politics.

AA: Always looking for news, what is happening in that part of the world.

AY: Whether it’s environmental news or whether it’s social news.

AA: Or war and peace. They are always taking news and listening to news. Asking people.

AY: So you believe that exactly we are going to contribute, we are going to participate in the political…

AA: Yes we will, definitely we will.

AY: And, well, what about economically?

AA: Economically we are already, we are already contributing, actually. You can see the number of businesses going on all over the Twin Cities, like gas stations or stores, grocery stores, or whatever. So many businesses.

AY: Yeah, malls, the Somali malls.

AA: Yeah, buying more buildings.

AY: They are actually getting into the social services.

AA: Yeah, Somalis are buying more buildings, they are residential. Yeah, they are contributing a lot. You can compare the presence of African Americans in this state over the last, say, decades, and the presence of the Somali immigrants only in the last two decades. If you compare the two, you can see there is a big difference. Huge difference. One day a professor friend of mine, an African American professor, Grant, Sam Grant, who is a professor here.

AY: At Macalester.

AA: No, no. Later he was—before that he was at Metro State.

AY: Oh, maybe I am mixing up with someone else.

AA: Sam Grant was teaching at Metro State, about three or four years ago—I remember him. One day he asked me, “Why are your people not mixing with blacks when they come to America? They stay aloof, they don’t mix with African Americans.” I said, “There’s a good reason.” He said, “What is the reason?” I told him, “Your people are angry because of their history. They are angry people. We are not angry.”

AY: Because we don’t even know the past.

AA: Exactly. We haven’t been dominated. Racially, we have never been dominated. We’ve been on top of the world. We have racial pride. We are full of racial pride.

AY: Which means that exactly the Somali’s proverb of a lion applies, which says that whoever just saves a sheep from a lion is he who doesn’t know the lion.

AA: Exactly, exactly. We are not aware of what blacks are suffering here. We are not aware of it, of their history or whatever.

[cell phone interruption]

AY: But also don’t you think that exactly what we do not know is that right now here we are actually accepted, even in the United States, just because African Americans actually, exactly, fought for this freedom that we are…

AA: Of course they are. They have struggled for it, they have fought for it, they’ve played their part, willingly or unwillingly, yeah.

AY: What are we missing right now? Where are we lacking, or where are we, yes, lagging behind?

AA: I don’t think socially. We are not united socially. Too many service organizations. Never united in one thing or the other. Still there’s a lot of divisions, unnecessary divisions.

AY: Subdivisions.

AA: Yeah. Which I don’t like. And they are not based on clan, mind you. Those divisions, community organizations, are not based on clan, but they are…

AY: Self-interest.

AA: They are based on self-interest. That’s why they are divided, otherwise they would have come together and worked into one organization or two organizations, instead of thirteen different organizations. When I came here in 2001, Somali community organizations were holding a meeting to elect, or select a delegation to go and talk to the two US senators about Somali issues. They couldn’t agree on it, who should go. So they asked me to chair that meeting, because I was a stranger. I came from outside the country, and I didn’t know the difference existing among them. They asked me if I could chair the meeting.

AY: Who recommended you?

AA: Nobody. I just attended the meeting, and they saw me as a stranger, and they thought maybe this stranger should chair the meeting.

AY: They had…

AA: They had no clue.

AY: They realized that whatever beef that was between them, you were not involved.

AA: Yes, I wasn’t involved with it, they knew that. So they asked me to chair the meeting, and I chaired that meeting. And as a result you had a smooth meeting and we selected a number of people to go and see Senator Dayton and the other senator, the two US senators. So that day I saw thirteen different service communities.

AY: Thirteen.

AA: Thirteen, yeah. You can imagine. Why don’t they come together?

AY: What year was that, you say?

AA: Two thousand and one, I think, around. At least 2001 or early 2002. I remember that I wasn’t here for more than a year. I remember that.

AY: So how long did it take you, just exactly, to select, to get the result.

AA: It was easy for me. Selection was easy for me, because nobody had any problem with me. It was easy. “So and so, so and so, so and so, go. Do you agree with me?” “Yes.” “Okay, let them go.” It was easy for me. And it wasn’t easy for them.

AY: So are you still willing to do that for us, if we call on you? [chuckles]

AA: No. I don’t get involved with anything, because my health doesn’t allow me anything now.

AY: Right now. How is your health, by the way?

AA: It’s not good. I have very chronic bronchitis, which even makes it difficult for me to breathe all right. And I’m not in good condition. Apart from the blood pressure and diabetes—that’s not important. Those two are not serious. I take their medication daily, but they are not serious for me. But more serious is the bronchitis. Five times I got pneumonia over the last two years. Five times I got pneumonia.

AY: It’s not even the wintertime, but it comes whenever it wants.

AA: Anytime it can come.

AY: It can attack you any moment.

AA: Anytime. Anytime I get the infection, and it turns into pneumonia, the infection turns into pneumonia—anytime. It has nothing to do with the weather. Five times over two years. It can kill you! Pneumonia can kill you.

AY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is very serious.

AA: I was hospitalized. At least three times, I was in hospital, admitted, for a week each.

AY: So, though, I think this is a stupid question, but I’m going to ask anyway.

AA: [chuckles] Go ahead.

AY: When you know that your immune system is compromised, and you know that exactly that you are fighting on multiple fronts, does it depress you, does it frighten you?

AA: No, it doesn’t.

AY: Why?

AA: That’s the beauty of it. The beauty of it is it doesn’t affect me emotionally. I never allow it. I never allow it to affect me emotionally, because of my faith. Because of my faith I feel strong, emotionally, to withstand any condition. So it doesn’t affect me. Emotionally it does not affect me. No health condition can affect me emotionally. It can only affect me physically, but not emotionally, never.

AY: So even when you are unable to…

AA: To do normal things.

AY: Well, yeah, to do normal things, to do what you want to…

AA: I’m not depressed. Sometimes I fail to climb my own steps in front of the door—five steps, six steps. Sometimes I’m unable to climb, and I may need the help of somebody to help me come up. But I never get depressed—never. I am never depressed.

AY: So what would you tell someone that has all the faculties and all the health?

AA: Faith—have faith. Yeah, have faith. It helps you. Faith is the strongest thing in the world. Nothing is stronger than faith in human life.

AY: So also if the worst comes—and I am saying it because you actually encourage me to say it—so if even the death itself arrives?

AA: Death itself is not important to me. Death itself is not important for me, because death means the soul is leaving the body, okay? Now where are you? Are you with the soul or with the body? You are with the soul. Your mind and your conscious is with the soul, and that never dies, so actually you never die. It’s the body that dies, and who cares about the body as long as you live in your soul.

AY: Yeah, but if your soul still remains to exist, I will not have a conversation with your soul, I would not recognize your soul.

AA: It’s okay. But I live, I live forever. I’m not dead. The soul is not dead—never. And it can hear, it can see, it can feel, it’s conscious, yeah. The mind is there. So the human person is the soul, not the body. The body is just the accompaniment.

AY: This is actually a faith and a philosophy of which I am inept even to question you about, so I’m going to leave it alone. But I’m going to come back to the point of where we are actually getting to the conclusion of our conversation. I think I already asked you what future do you foresee for Somalia, but I am also just asking you what future do you foresee for Somalis here in twenty years?

AA: I think we’ll be much more comfortable in the society, we’ll be more advanced, and we will be more advanced economically and socially, educationally, in every aspect of life. I think Somalis here will be better off in twenty years. And of course, we’ll be more assimilated into the American society also. Slowly young people are getting assimilated, you know that. And you cannot stop it.

AY: It’s going to take place.

AA: It’s taking place.

AY: They are Americans.

AA: Yeah, they are being Americanized. You can’t stop it.

AY: So if you just exactly try to imagine it or just if it is on the tip of your tongue, what is the proudest moment, in terms of Somalis in Minnesota? What could you say was just my proudest moment of these people’s achievement or association?

AA: Brightest moment?

AY: Yes.

SS: The moment, they got the representation in the city council, Minneapolis City Council. That’s my proudest moment.

AY: You said, “We arrived.”

SS: Yes, exactly. It is the biggest step we have taken so far. After twenty years of living in this state, it is the biggest step we have taken forward. Elected member of the city.

AY: Which means that…

AA: He can tomorrow become a mayor! Nobody can stop us.

AY: So also you think that exactly the younger generation or the ones behind him can emulate and just exactly see the path.

AA: We have good opportunity, very good opportunity. The young generation has a very good opportunity to play any role they wish to play in the society. Any role.

AY: You also are in contact or maybe in communication or know of Ilhan Omar?

AA: Ilhan, yes.

AY: Who is actually also a rising star, to some extent.

AA: Yes, she’s a very…

AY: Very smart young lady who is not even thirty.

AA: She’s a rising star. Very charismatic, very charismatic. I admire her. I admire her.

AY: Yes. Well aware of her cultural identity, well aware of her Somaliness, possibly. Well aware of her American part of her.

AA: Well mannered, well mannered—she is well mannered, too.

AY: Yes.

AA: For a young woman she is well mannered. Never uncovers her head or neck.

AY: That matters.

AA: Yeah, that matters! That matters. She is a true Muslim woman, and a true Somali woman at the same time. That makes a difference.

AY: Yes, and also I think she knows American, her American part of her, too.

AA: Oh yes, oh yes.

AY: So anything else that you are just going to add, or any point that you think somehow that I did not see, or any question that I did not ask?

AA: I can’t remember much.

AY: Of course, there are tons of things that we did not cover.

AA: We did not cover, of course, everything, but I don’t quite remember what I left or what you left.

AY: Anything that you would say to a family member, or anything that you will say to your sons one day that possibly if you are not here?

AA: Recently one of my sons got married. You didn’t know that?

AY: No.

AA: In August last year. My son, who works for Hennepin County, Ismail, got married in August last year.

AY: So he’s a family now.

AA: Right. She’s already carrying a child in her belly.

AY: Wow! Congratulations.

AA: Almost seven months pregnant, and she’s an MBA [Master of Business Administration], the woman is an MBA from Connecticut University and a bachelor from Kenyatta University in Nairobi.

AY: Oh, excellent. Because you know I went to undergraduate in Connecticut. Hartford, Connecticut.

AA: Yeah, she came from Connecticut, with a master’s in business administration. She worked for Wells Fargo for a while here, and later on she worked for this insurance—most Somalis’ health insurance.

AY: Health insurance…

AA: UCare.

AY: UCare. What’s her name?

AA: Zamzam. Zamzam Jama.

AY: I think I know her.

AA: Yep, you may. I don’t know.

AY: Does she work for…

AA: She’s a business analyst.

AY: Oh, okay. I might not know her. Okay. I think just to conclude a Somali word—adeer [uncle]. Thank you very much, Abukar. I will be in touch with you.

AA: Okay, thank you. You’re welcome.