Abukar Ali Narrator Ahmed Ismail Yusuf Interviewer June 28, 2014 Saint Paul, Minnesota Abukar Ali -AA Ahmed Ismail Yusuf -AY AY: It is June 28, 2014. We are in Saint Paul, Minnesota. I am here with Abukar Mohamed Ali, who agreed to be interviewed. Abukar, welcome to the interview. AA: Thank you. AY: I am going to go back. This is Ahmed Ismail Yusuf, recording or interviewing for the Minnesota Historical Society Somali Oral History Project. Once again, I am glad that you agreed to the interview. So the first question is, when were you born and where were you born? I don’t think most of Somalis actually are comfortable with that question, but let’s hear it. AA: I’ll tell you, I have no problem. I was born and brought up in the former British Somaliland, which later became part of the Somali Republic, and I also had my early education there at the Amoud school, and that’s it. AY: And approximately do you remember where you were born and what year? AA: Yeah. I was probably born in 1941. And I was born in Aware [Awaare], which at that time was part of Somaliland, but later became ceded to Ethiopia by the British government. AY: Aware? AA: Aware, yeah. I was born there, and I was brought up in Somaliland. AY: And how many siblings were in the family? AA: Oh, numerous. My father used to marry a number of wives, four at a time, and we were almost thirty of us. AY: Thirty. AA: Yeah. We are a large family. We are a large family. 1 AY: So did you grow up in Aware itself, or you had a hand in the nomad life? AA: No, I had no part in the nomadic life. I was brought up on Borama [Boorama] and Hargeisa [Hargeysa], these two cities. AY: Where did you start in school? AA: I started Aware elementary school, three years, and then I went over to Borama, to Amoud school, intermediate school. AY: So what I wanted to know about you is just what was the feeling of nationalism then, and what was the Somali identity to you when you were growing up? AA: When I was growing up—that was in the fifties—Somali patriotism was very strong because the people of Somaliland at that time were struggling to become independent, and there was a lot of literature concerning freedom and all that and against the colonial administration. So people were really patriotic. They were very patriotic. AY: I think at the time, also, even though it was completely different, there was sort of a somewhat division or tribal division. What would you say if you compare, even though the rest of the world just exactly know us as a tribal nation or a clannish nation? I mean, could you tell any difference between the tribal turmoils now and the tribal issues at the time? AA: First of all, I don’t call it tribalism in Somalia. I call it clannism. AY: What’s the difference? To me they are one and the same. AA: No, no, there is a difference. A tribe is a group of people who are supposed to be speaking the same language and have the same culture. That is a tribe. AY: And it could be anywhere. AA: Alternatively, you could call it an ethnic group also. All Somalis are one ethnic group or one tribe. But they are divided into clans. You see, we are one tribe, because culturally and linguistically, we are the same group. Therefore we are one tribe, but the division comes down when you come to clans. Yeah, we have so many clans, different clans, but we are one tribe. AY: So how is that clan division of then—that had the nationalism and all that—different than the one that is destroying the nation? AA: The clan division in the fifties and forties was not as strong as it became later, after independence. At that time patriotism was stronger than the clan affiliation. Patriotism was strong at that time, and people were fighting for independence, fighting for freedom. They were united. Although, the clans existed, but they existed for social things. You know, like burials—if you die, the clan buries you. Or if you become bankrupt, your clan helps you. Or if you have 2 aggressors, your clan comes to your help. That kind of thing existed, of course. Even then, it existed. But generally people were united in their fight and their struggle for freedom. AY: So going back to that itself, you yourself—we’re just exactly getting to that. You yourself were born to a clan that we could say right now was actually a minority in the northern part of Somalia. AA: Yes, yes. AY: But not only that you actually survived, but you were part and parcel of that community. AA: Yes. AY: So did you, when you were growing up, were you alienated or did you feel any different? AA: No, I was not alienated. There was no discrimination, whether you are a minority or a majority—we were all equal. There was no problem. Nobody had a problem of discrimination or alienation. AY: So the number and the strength of the majority or the major tribes did not impose on you. AA: No. They themselves were subdivided. The major ones themselves were subdivided into, say, three major subclans, and they were balancing on each other. They, themselves, they were balancing each other, so nobody thought about the minor clans. AY: Oh, so while they’re watching each other… AA: They were busy watching each other. AY: They were busy watching each other. AA: Yes, yes. AY: And if we even named them… AA: The minorities were safe. AY: Yes. [chuckles] AA: Minorities were safe, because they were busy eyeing each other, and, you know, competing with each other for the higher jobs and that kind of thing. AY: Sizing up each other, yes. AA: They were busy with themselves. 3 AY: So in case somehow or other that some people may be curious of what those tribes were, would you name them? AA: Yes. Like for instance, the Isaaq was the major clan there. The Isaaq were actually the major clan, the biggest clan. AY: In the northern part of Somalia. AA: The northern part. I am talking about Somaliland. We’re not in Somalia yet. AY: Yes. AA: That’s pre-independence Somaliland. The major subclan were the Isaaq, followed by the Dhulbahante [Dulbahante] and the Gadabuursi, these two other subclans. AY: Dhulbahante, which it is Darod [Daarood]? AA: Darod, yeah, Darod. It is a subclan of Darod, and Gadabuursi, which is in Borama, in that area. Now, the Isaaq themselves are divided into three major subclans. Habr Jaalo, Habr Garhadjis, and Habr Awal. So these three major Isaaq subclans were… AY: Watching each other. AA: Exactly. And competing for big jobs. So the other minority clans were comfortable. No problem, because they were busy with each other. AY: Yes. So to add to it, as long as we are there, there were then Warsangali. AA: Yes, they are the Darod, yeah. The Dhulbahante and Warsangali are Darod, too. AY: The Issa also? AA: The Issa is another minority subclan in the extreme northwest. But they are not in the mainstream of politics. At least they were not at that time. AY: Were not into that. AA: They were not in the mainstream politics. Gadabuursi was. Gadabuursi and Dhulbahante. AY: Was a contender. AA: Gadabuursi and Dhulbahante later formed their own political party, actually, to compete with the major Isaaq political party. AY: And what was that party called? 4 AA: The USP, the United Somali Party. They formed what is called the United Somali Party. The Darod and the Gadabuursi, Borama and Las Anod [Laascaanood] formed a political party, at the time known at the time as USP, or United Somali Party, to compete with the major SNL, Somali National League, which consisted of— AY: Was predominantly Isaaq. AA: Predominantly Isaaq, of course. Almost ninety-nine percent Isaaq. They were competing with those. AY: And your particular clan, minority clan, in that part of the world was—is Fiqishini. AA: Yeah, Fiqishini, which is a sub-sub-subclan of Hawiye, yeah. AY: Yes, which Somalis would normally be surprised that actually Hawiye is… AA: Living in the north. AY: Hawiye which is living in the middle of the northern part of Somalia. AA: Yeah. We live among the Darod, Dhulbahante subclan, as well as partly with the Isaaq. AY: So were you politically also affiliated with them? AA: No, we were not even politically active at that time, in the fifties. I was a student, most of the time. Most of the time in the fifties, I was a student. AY: You didn’t care about politics. AA: I didn’t care about politics, except when it comes to patriotism. I used to take part in demonstrations, demonstrating against the British. AY: Colonialism. AA: Colonial—of ceding part of our territory to Ethiopia. Namely Aware, when they ceded to Ethiopia. AY: Which was 1954. AA: Fifty-five. Yeah. We were demonstrating against the British government. AY: So fast-forward—not actually fast-forward, but then if you just try to describe your childhood, what would you say? If you try to describe it, you know, was it a happy childhood? AA: Yes. It was a happy childhood, really. 5 AY: What’s your recollection of the child that is just exactly growing up in that… AA: My recollection is I was a happy child.