REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, July 9, 1980 at 10 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, the Supplementary Agenda, and if hon. G.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: members agree we will continue with our The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon business while these Bills are being signed. Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. T. W. Is that agreed? Cain), Messrs. G. T. Crellin, R. E. S. Ker- ruish, G. V. H. Kneale, R. MacDonald, W. A. It was agreed. Moore, J. C. Nivison, C.B.E., P. Radcliffe, A. H. Simcocks, M.B.E., with Mr. T. A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council. In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. Sir Charles Ker- PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. ruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, W. K. Quirk, J. J. Radclitfe, J. N. Radcliffe, The Governor: I call on the Clerk to lay Mrs. C. M. Christian, Dr. E. J. Mann, papers. Messrs. A. A. Callin, R. L. Watterson, J. R. Creer, E. G. Lowey, M. R. Walker, N. Q. The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— Cringle, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. G. A. Quinney, M.B.E., E. M. Ward, B.E.M., P. A. Customs and Excise Acts (Application) Craine, D. F. K. Delaney, E. C. Irving, Mrs. Act 1975—Export of Goods (Control) B. Q. Hanson, Mr. T. E. Kermeen, I.S.O., (Iran Sanctions) Order 1980 (Application) Dr. D. L. Moore, M.A., Ph.D., Messrs. J. J. Order 1980. Christian, G. C. Swales, with Mr. R. B. M. Quayle, Clerk of Tynwald. Advocates' Fees — First Interim Report of the Committee appointed to revise Ad­ ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT. vocates’ Fees.

The Governor: Hon. members, I have to British Nationality (Fees) Acts 1949— announce in accordance with the terms of British Nationality (Fees) Regulations section 2 of the Acts of Tynwald (Emer­ 1980. gency Promulgation) Act 1916 that the Royal Assent was given to the following Licensing Act 1961— Licensing (No. 8) Act on 21st May 1980: Coinage Offences Order 1980. Licensing (No. 9) Order 1980. Act 1980. Licensing (No. 10) Order 1980. Licensing (No. 11) Order 1980. Licensing (No. 12) Order 1980. BILLS FOR SIGNATURE.

The Governor: We have two Bills for Music and Dancing Act 1961—Music signature on the main Agenda and two on and Dancing Order 1980.

Announcement of Royal Assent. — Bills for Signature. — Papers Laid Before the Court. T1290 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Fees, Charges, Etc. Enabling Act 1972— young people to re-establish themselves in Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board society on their release? (Variation of Fees, Charges, Etc.) Order 1980. The Governor: Educational facilities are available in the prison for all prisoners who Whitley Council Agreement— Isle of Man wish to further their education. A teacher Civil Service — Amendment of Civil Ser­ from the College of Further Education vice Salary Scales (Public Notice No. attends the prison one full day in each 73/80.) week to give instruction in general sub­ jects, including English. The College can Annual Report—Annual Report of the also provide instruction if requested in any Government Analyst’s Laboratory for the specific subjects, and prisoners are able year ended 31st December 1979. to take correspondence courses in G.C.E. ‘O' and ’A’ level examinations. Limited Local Government Board’s Approval to training is provided by prison officers for Petitions— Approval dated 20th June 1980 prisoners wishing to learn a trade and in to the following Petitions— (1) Petition of physical education. Additionally, it is the the Port Erin Village Commissioners for duty of prison officers to assist prisoners authority to borrow a sum not exceeding with their problems and for this purpose £9,500, repayable within 10 years, to defray they liaise with the probation service and the cost of improvements to the toilet other relevant organisations. They also facilties and the kitchen area at the Peti­ endeavour to help prisoners whilst still in tioners’ Bradda Glen Cafe premises. (2) custody in finding employment and accom­ Petition of the Ramsey Town Commission­ modation on their release, either in the ers for authority to borrow a sum not ex­ Isle of Man or in the United Kingdom, and ceeding £1,500, repayable within 20 years, it is hoped to offer further increased facili­ to defray additional costs in connection ties for prisoners to learn a trade when with the making up and surfacing of the the new wing of the prison is built. College Street Car Park, Ramsey — Sub­ ject -to the amount of the borrowing being Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, since I reduced to a sum not exceeding £756, asked this question I have had various representing the limit acceptable within the comments on the re-establishment of terms of the original fixed-price contract. youngsters from the Tromode Home. The point has been made to me that the pro­ INMATES OF PRISON — EDUCATION, bation service is very over-worked so that TRAINING AND HELP — QUESTION when you are thinking in this area, could BY MRS. QUAYLE. Tromode Home be taken into considera­ tion? The Governor: That brings us to the Question Paper, hon. members. Question The Governor: Yes, I think I am right in number 1. I call upon the hon. member for saying that the organisation and methods Castletown, Mrs. Quayle. section of the Civil Service Commission is looking into the establishment of the pro­ Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to bation service. ask:—As on average more than half the Mrs. Quayle: Thank you. inmates of the prison last year were under 22 years of age, and as more than 100 persons admitted to the prison during the QUESTION NO. 2 — DEFERRED. year were under 26 years of age, is education, training and help with their The Governor: On question number 2, problems being provided to enable these the Chairman does not appear to be here

Inmates of Prison — Education, Training and Help — Question by Mrs. Quayle. — Question No. 2 — Deferred. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1291 to answer it. Is the Vice-Chairman in a pcsi- authorise, subject to police control, traffic tion to answer? Would you be happy to to cross the course at specific points defer it, Mr. Speaker? during intervals between races and also, of course, in the event of postponement. The Speaker: Yes, Your Excellency. Finally, and to be wholly realistic over the whole question of this access road, and although it is not for me to add my voice to those in the press, but some say that a T.T. COURSE — ACCESS ROAD TO life of 10 years for the T.T. is what one can INSIDE OF COURSE — QUESTION expect — (interruptions)— and if this BY MR. ANDERSON. should be the case the whole question of the construction of an access road into The Governor: Question number 3. I the inside of the T.T. course is at least call upon the hon. member for Glenfaba, quarter of a century too late. Mr. Anderson. Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I thank Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to the hon. Chairman for his reply, but ask ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man High­ him if they have ever investigated the way and Transport Board:— In view of the question of a fly-over, as it were, which inconvenience caused to persons residing could be constructed at a great deal less or working inside the T.T. course when amount of money and possibly could be road closures are effected, particularly even dismantled afterwards? I think this is when races are postponed, will your Board a possibility, it can be done, and I am sure consider the construction of an access there are areas where it could be done. I road into the inside of the course for use would ask him if his Board are aware, during road closures? especially this year when there were so many postponements, of the very great Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, my inconvenience there has been? One ap­ Board are very much aware that there is a preciates the tolerance of a lot of people certain amount of inconvenience caused to in this respect but a great lot of incon­ the public by the closure, not only of the venience has been caused, and real diffi­ T.T. course but the numerous other roads culty. which are closed for the purposes of staging other attractive events. This sug­ Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, of gestion regarding the construction of an course my Board is aware of the incon- access road is one that has been made on ven:ence which is caused to certain sectors many occasions and, undoubtedly, an of the public and, indeed, we thank the access road between Douglas and the general public for their forbearance over parish of Braddan would remove a certain the whole question of road closings. We amount of public inconvenience when the have investigated the possibility of fly­ T.T. course is closed for motor-cycle overs, or whatever. I think we must be racing. However, to be totally realistic, the talking about a type of project which is cost of constructing such a roadway would capable of carrying traffic and, again, as be in the region of to £J million, and soon as you talk about capabilities of this for a maximum possible useage of 12 i carrying traffic over a main road—we were days a year would, I feel, be highly looking, for example, at the bottom of irresponsible and could not be justified Bray Hill — the cost is, without doubt, far when there are so many more projects of too exorbitant to consider. much higher priority of which I am sure I hardly need to remind members. It should The Speaker: Your Excellency, a sup­ be noted that the road closing orders also plementary? The Government Property

T.T. Course — Access Road to Inside of Course — Question by Mr. Anderson. T1292 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Trustees having illustrated what can be one has to be realistic. There is a certain done to give access at the fairground at amount of worry and prognostication there, St. John’s by the utilisation of the railway and 10 years may well be the life of the line at very small cost to Government, T.T. in view of the fuel situation through­ would the hon. Chairman consider a similar out the world. proposition in relation to the railway line at Braddan? Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary question? Four years IWr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, my ago I asked whether, in fact, at the bottom Board and my Board's officers investigated of Bray Hill the Board might consider not this possibility. One may remember that a a fly-over but an under-pass, and within figure of £10,000 was bandied around the general policy of the Highway Board, about this time last year for a project particularly in relation to Tromode Road which would carry traffic under the road and the possibility of increasing commer­ at Braddan Bridge. I am informed that the cial traffic including, indeed, possibly cost of that, with the necessary re-grading refuse disposal vans goings out to a plant of the land behind and possible purchase, which would be outside the Borough of we would be talking, as I said, in the Douglas, will he look at the whole position region of £J million to do a reasonable in that particular area of Douglas? job of it. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, it The Speaker: Another supplementary, is a fact of life that when one starts to Your Excellency? As the Highway Board’s burrow underground it is a very, very ex­ costs in relation to St. John's were ex­ pensive operation. I will give the hon. mem­ tremely high by comparison with the pri­ ber the assurance that, again, we will look vate contractor’s eventual price for the job, at and cost these various things. One must would you consider bringing in private con­ remember, too, that 12J- days a year is a tractors to give you a price? very minimal part of the 365 days, and the Highway Board are remembering that the Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the rivers have been neglected for a quarter Highway Board are always ready to investi­ of a century, that there are roads breaking gate that possibility, and I can give Mr. up which are in use every day, there are Speaker the assurance that we shall ask road widenings and works required at for a price from private enterprise. corners which are, or seem to be, accident prone, and we have to get our priorities IWr. Irving: Your Excellency, may I ask right. a supplementary? Does the hon. member recall a few months ago saying that per­ Members: Hear, hear. haps the T.T. races might not last longer than 10 years? If so, would the hon. mem­ ber assure the Court that the Highway Board does not take any such pessimistic POST OFFICE SERVICES — CODE OF view of the T.T. races, and will plan that PRACTICE — APPLICATION TO ISLE these races will continue for a long time OF MAN ET CETERA — QUESTION BY in the future? MR. KERMEEN.

IWr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I The Governor: Question number 4. I call am quite happy to give the hon. member upon the hon. member for West Douglas, for East Douglas that assurance. As I said, Mr. Kermeen. or thought I said, far be it from me to add my voice to those already in the press, but Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg to

Post Office Services — Code of Practice — Application to Isle of Man Et Cetera — Question by Mr. Kermeen. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1293

ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Post of the Post Office Authority. It is under­ Office Authority:—There has recently been stood that previous attempts by the British circulated with telephone accounts a Post Office to set up a branch of the Post leaflet referring, inter alia, to the Code of Office Users' National Council in connec­ Practice for Post Office Services and to tion with telecommunications have not the submission of complaints to the Post been successful, but close liaison is main­ Office Users’ National Council. (1) How tained with the Chamber of Commerce and far does this code of practice relate to or other interested bodies representing apply in the Isle of Man? (2) As there is customers. no Manx legislation analogous to section 14 of the U.K. Post Office Act 1969 (which Mr. Cringle: A supplementary, Your established the above mentioned Council), Excellency? Would the Chairman of the what machinery exists in the Island for the Post Office Authority undertake to look at consideration of representations by users and to consider whether or not the Isle of of the Insular service? (3) Will your Autho­ Man should take over its own telecom­ rity indicate whether the creation of a munications? similar Council in the Isle of Man is warranted? Mr. Kneale: Speaking personally, and not Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, the Code on behalf of the Post Office Authority, I of Practice was introduced by the British hope that day never arises! Post Office in June 1979. This provides basic information about the various ser­ vices, the conditions under which these are offered, and compensation limits. It INCINERATOR PLANT — SITING — QUESTION BY MR. CRAINE. also refers to complaints procedure and the function of the Post Office Users’ National Council. The conditions for Post The Governor: Question number 5. I call Office and agency services provided by the upon the hon. member for South Douglas, Isle of Man Post Office Authority are the Mr. Craine. same as applied in the United Kingdom, and compensation payable for loss or Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I beg to ask damage in the post is identical. Custo­ the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Gov­ mers' complaints are dealt with by the ernment Board :— In view of the concern expressed by residents in the area, will you Authority’s staff responsible to the Con­ troller of Post Office Services. Appeals and give an assurance that the proposed incine­ more serious cases are referred to the rator plant will not be sited at Pulrose? Director. Beyond this, dissatised custo­ mers can, and do, approach Authority Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I regret members and/or members of Tynwald to that I am unable to give the assurance seek redress for legitimate complaints or sought by the hon. member for South Dou­ to make comments upon services. The glas. Whilst no final decision on the siting system adopted by the Authority is of the proposed refuse incineration plant adequate to meet public requirements, and has been made, one of the sites under the creation of an organisation in the Isle active consideration is at Groves Road, Pul­ of Man similar to the United Kingdom Post rose, and I am not prepared to rule out Office Users’ National Council in respect that site at this stage. I can readily appre­ of business performed by the Authority is ciate that residents living adjacent to a not warranted. Hon. members will be aware possible site might be apprehensive con­ that the telecommunications services on cerning the implications of the proposal the Isle of Man are not the responsibilty but their apprehension is probably based

Incinerator Plant — Siting — Question by Mr. Craine. T1294 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 on a lack of appreciation of the true in the Scandinavian countries, this is not environmental effects of the plant. In point dealt with as something of a nuisance, of fact these will be minimal and will be this waste product, but it is actually an confined largely to the modest amount of asset. They are using that asset for heating additional traffic generated. I propose to purposes which is, indeed, very valuable say a little more about the environmental and will become increasingly valuable in implications of the plant when moving the time to come. One of the reasons — and next stage of the development later in we have asked for expert advice on this — this sitting of the Court. Suffice to say for is that this particular site is probably the the moment that the concern of the local best for the utilisation of that heat for the residents is largely unfounded and the future in the Isle of Man for the benefit of Board will endeavour to ensure, as no the whole of the community. doubt will also the Douglas Corporation and the Special Planning Committee, that Mr. Lowey: A supplemenary, Your Ex­ should the plant be sited at Groves Road cellency? Would the Chairman not agree the amenities of the neighbourhood will not that the people of Pulrose have suffered be adversely affected. over the last 40 years in providing assets for the Isle of Man and the town of Dou­ Mr. Craine: A supplementary question, glas, that is, the two open tipping sites Your Excellency? If I organise a public which were used in and around Pulrose? meeting in the area, would the Chairman Before they become an asset they have got and members of the Board attend this to put up with 40 years of strife. meeting? Mr. Irving: And the power station. Mr. Anderson: Yes, Your Excellency, we would be pleased to attend. I think, pos­ Mr. Lowey: And the power station. Would sibly, we could get hold of the film which, it not be fair to the people of this area in fact, would demonstrate this clearly to to find another site, for social reasons, the people. I believe that had I not seen never mind how practical the reasons, the developments with my own eyes I which I am sure the Chairman will be able would not have fully appreciated, in fact, to spell out later on today? Is it not time how absolutely clean they are. They are the people of Pulrose were given just a very similar to a light industrial develop­ breathing space? ment and it has got to be seen to be be­ Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I can lieved, the standard of cleanliness in this understand this point of view because of sort of development. the nature of open tipping in the past. But Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Ex­ this just bears no comparison. I have put cellency? If it is so clean and it is going in the members’ room some photographs of to be such a wonderful project, in a similar where these plants have been within a few way to the pulverisation plant when it was yards of dwellings that have been put first moved, and Hansard reports such a there after the plants have been erected, debate, could you tell us why it is not the town hall adjacent too. If you look at going to go somewhere like Saddlestone the picture you can see precisely what is Valley where there is ample land for sale proposed. Those members, not only of my down there? Board but also of the Energy Committee have seen for themselves and will confirm Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, that is that it has got to be seen to be believed. one of the things which I would hope to It will not have a detrimental effect. deal with at a later stage today. But one of the factors, of course, that is so attrac­ Mr. Delaney: Will it reduce their heating tive about this is that, in fact, in Denmark, bills?

Incinerator Plant — Siting — Question by Mr. Craine. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1295

SEWAGE EFFLUENT — DISPOSAL IN recently discussed with the Andreas Parish ANDREAS VILLAGE AREA — QUESTION Commissioners the possibility of piping any BY MR. J. N. RADCLIFFE. overflow to a point beyond the village where it would cause less offence, and the The Governor: Question number 6. I call Commissioners have now suggested a site upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Nor­ to which the discharge might be piped. man Radcliffe. The Board’s inspectors’ department is considering the Commissioners’ suggestion Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I and will report to the Board in due course. beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Whilst the system generally works well, if Man Local Government Board :— Is your the Commissioners’ suggestion is feasible Board fully satisfied with the conditions and economic then I feel sure the Board presently pertaining in regard to the dis­ will wish to adopt it. posal of the sewage effluent in the Andreas Village area? Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, just a couple of supplementaries, if I may. The Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, the Chairman of the Local Government Board sewerage system in Andreas Village, which must, I am sure, be aware that this raw is in 150 mm. salt glazed stoneware con­ sewage is discharged into a stream from struction, because of the levels and con­ which eventually livestock certainly will be tours of the land relies upon a pumping drinking, and possibly others, and surely installation in order that the effluent can he must agree that this constitutes much be discharged to a sea outfall on the north­ more than a nuisance. The people of the west of the Island. It is necessary in such village area and their Commissioners have arrangements for an overflow to be pro­ been very concerned over this whole vided in cases where the pumps fail, where affair and this concern is magnified by the they are overloaded and in instances fact that the hon. Chairman’s Board does where there is a breakdown in the elec­ not appear to be able to offer a solution tricity supply. The associated pumps and at all, even after many years of being fully equipment are of relatively recent manufac­ aware of this problem. Is it a fact, sir, that ture and are in good working order. It will the Local Government Board told the Com­ be appreciated that all sewerage systems missioners at this meeting that you men­ can, on occasion, become subject to bloc­ tioned, we have no solution, go away Com­ kages or failure of mechanical equipment, missioners, think, and then let my Board when nuisance may occur associated with know if you can offer a solution. Is that the overflow until the particular fault is correct, sir? remedied. There have been one or two in­ stances in recent months when blockages Mr. Moore: Rubbish, absolute rubbish ! have occurred and, as a result, the over­ flow pipe has discharged itself into the Mr. Anderson: No, I think my Vice- ditch adjacent to the roadway opposite the Chairman actually was prompted by the village stores. These blockages have been fact that he was chairing the meeting at caused by unauthorised entry into the sys­ that particular date. (Interruption.) Actually tem of material from building sites and the Board is looking at it sympathetically. I are therefore abnormal. There is no pros­ have pointed out that there are difficulties pect of relocating the overflow pipe or of because of the contours of the ground, and sealing it up. It is in the optimum position the Commissioners are suggesting an area for the system and if it were sealed and and, as I said, we are investigating that. there was a blockage then the discharge We are not writing it off. It is not a con­ would back up in the gullies of various tinuous problem, it is one that occurs from domestic properties in the area. The Board time to time as a result of the various

Sewage Effluent — Disposal in Andreas Village Area — Question by Mr. J. N. Radcliffe. T1296 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 occurrences which I have mentioned. My which will enable young Manx people to Board are not complacent about it, but if build homes economically. Will your Board there is any practical solution we will try therefore delete or amend any points in to resolve it. the conveyance of plots for sale at Kerro- cruin Estate, Kirk Michael, which add un­ Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, necessarily to building costs, particularly could I ask the hon. Chairman if his Board in relation to roofing materials? and his officers would consider then, as was talked about a number of years ago, Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, the the possibility of constructing a catchpit Board is insisting for all the proposed dwel­ of some sort at least 100 yards south of lings at Kerrocruin that they and any asso­ the main road going through the village; in ciated garages should have a slate or slate- fact, 100 yards south of the village stores llke roof with a pitch of not less than 30 which he mentioned earlier on? degrees. This condition is being required to safeguard the appearance of the village iWr. Creer: A supplementary, Your Excel­ and to protect the investment in the prop­ lency? Would not a solution to this be, erties of the applicants themselves. One there is a sewerage tank at Union Mills of the many duties of the Local Government and there is another at Kirk Michael which Board is to safeguard the amenities of the could break up all the solids, and you Isle of Man. Not only is this duty carried could send it out to the sea in liquid form out in the administration of the Town and then. I cannot see how that could not be Country Planning Acts, but it must also be done. Union Mills worked successfully, seen to be responsibly applied to its other Kirk Michael worked successfully. functions such as those of landowner and developer. The site in question is in the Mr. Anderson: This is correct, Your Ex­ heart of the village of Kirk Michael, close cellency, but here you are talking in terms to the main road and the church. The of £J million for Andreas Village. If the village has a pleasant traditional character hon. member’s solution, in fact, was adop­ which should be safeguarded. The Local ted, that there was a catchpi-t 100 yards Government Board must set an example away, that again would entail an extra and try to ensure in its developments that pumping system which again would be sub­ they are compatible and sympathetic to the ject to power cuts, et cetera. The Board associated environment. The local resi­ will look at this, but again it is a very con­ dents also, quite naturally, have always siderable cost to tackle the problem. been most concerned, not only over the type of development proposed for this land, but also over the design layout of the area and its subsequent appearance BUILDING PLOTS AT KERROCRUIN in relation to existing dwellings. Another ESTATE, KIRK MICHAEL — reason for these design conditions being UNNECESSARY BUILDING COSTS — included in the Deeds of Conveyance is to QUESTION BY MRS. CHRISTIAN. protect the investments of the purchasers of the plots. It should not be forgotten The Governor: Question number 7. I that although we talk of reasonably priced call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mrs. plots, the prices range from approximately Christian. £3,000 to £5,500, and it will cost a great deal more than that to erect a dwelling. Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I beg This represents a lifetime’s investment for to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man many young people, and my Board feels Local Government Board :— Your Board that they should be somewhat looked after has expressed its support for schemes from the point of view of the initial design,

Building Plots at Kerrocruin Estate, Kirk Michael — Unnecessary Building Costs — Question by Mrs. Christian. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1297

and it is known that, in fact, if some flat anti-damp treatment currently being roofs, for example, cost initially less, even­ applied to the exterior walls of the new tually they do cost more to maintain. With Government offices? For how many years regard to the hon. member’s particular is this treatment expected to prove effec­ point about the cost of the specified roof­ tive? In view of the known climatic condi­ ing materials, the cost involved in relation tions in the Island, did the architects have to the cost of the plot plus building is a sample of the bricks tested at the Build­ minimal and the Board has no need to ing Research Station before specifying delete any points from the conveyance. It their use? Will the architects be shoulder­ should also be noted that the existence of ing all, or some, of the financial respon­ these conditions was made known to the sibility for the treatment that is now having applicants for plots at the time they sub­ to be undertaken? mitted the initial application for considera­ tion, so it was known from the very earliest Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, the first days that these conditions would apply. part of the question, the cost is £2,500. The second part of the question, five to Mrs. Christian: Thank you. Could I ask seven years. The third part of the question, a supplementary? Would then the Local as the questioner indicates, the climatic Government Board and its Planning Com­ conditions of the Island are known and, mittee insist on the same kind of materials this being so, I would have thought that being used by private developers in that this particular question would have had a area? Is it not a fact that other recently more realistic base had it been addressed built properties in that area do not have to the Committee responsible for the de­ to have this type of roofing material and sign and construction of the building six or in that respect is there not an inconsist­ seven years ago. If this had been done, ency developing? from the inference of the third question, then obviously the fourth question would Mr. Anderson: The view of the Planning be surplus to requirements in 1980. How­ Officer and most members of my Board is ever, as the Government Property Trustees that, in fact, this is in a critical part of the have been responsible for the maintenance town, and while other developments have of the building as from the summer of had the more normal roof type construc­ 1975, my investigation over the week-end tion, in this particular area they feel it into the background of this is this. The would be better to maintain a higher stan­ bricks used in the external walls of Central dard. I have my own reservations but that Government Offices were selected by the is the point of view of most of my mem­ consultants engaged in Building Design bers. Partnership of Manchester, and meet British Standard requirements. It is not known if a sample of the bricks was tested. I am, however, informed that testing would GOVERNMENT OFFICES — ANTI-DAMP not be normal practice when the item pur­ TREATMENT — COST ET CETERA — ported to conform to British Standards. I QUESTION BY MRS. QUAYLE. might mention that British Design Partner­ ship are no longer engaged by the Isle of The Governor: Question number 8. I Man Government. call upon the hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle. Mr. Delaney: Have they been paid?

Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to Mr. Swales: Treatment has only been ask the Chairman of the Government Prop­ found necessary — and this is fortunate erty Trustees:— What is the cost of the — in respect of the rear elevations

Government Offices — Anti-Damp Treatment — Cost Et Cetera — Question' by Mrs. Quayle. T1298 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 of the building which appears to be Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to particularly open to prevailing wet ask the Chairman of the Finance Board :— weather. Technically — and I will What contributions are gained by the Isle just mention this — the problem is caused of Man Exchequer from those businesses by the rain being driven by the prevailing established for a few days only by virtue wind through the outer skin of brickwork, of a pedlar's licence? thus collecting within the cavity. Although the means for dispersing this water back Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in through the external brickwork have been reply to the hon. member, I would say that incorporated in the walls the amount of in the main the contribution to the general water is often such that in certain areas revenue is in the form of fees paid in re­ it finds its way through the inner skin of spect of pedlars’ certificates issued under brickwork before it can be dispersed in the terms of section 5, as amended, of the the originally intended way. Pedlars and Street Traders Act of 1906. The amount of fee payable depends on the Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Ex­ category of pedlar as set out in the Act, cellency? During your investigations over and can vary from £500 for a non-resident the week-end did you manage to find out to £1 for a Manx resident. The total amount if a lawsuit is going to be formed by this of fees collected in the last full financial Government to sue the consultant archi­ year 1979/80 came to £4,457 in respect of tects for using Manx taxpayers’ money in the issue of 193 certificates. In addition, the a building and design in such a way that Isle of Man benefits from income tax paid will allow this to happen? on the profits made by Isle of Man resi­ dents connected with such businesses, and Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I am not also in some cases by a share of value aware of that. added tax, which would depend on the par­ ticular trade classification in which the Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, as I business was registered. I can also tell the understand it, I did not have a reply to hon. member that for many years now I the last part of my question. have been personally concerned about this situation and I would say that other mem­ Mr. Swales: The reply here, sir, is that this Is a legal matter entirely, it is a matter bers of this hon. Court have been also now of some seven years of age. My own and we are, naturally, as the Government personal view is that it would cost more to of the Isle of Man, concerned wherever obtain this money than the £2,500 it is possible to give protection to our people costing to do the work. On the other in the Isle of Man in business paying their hand, it is a matter which will be con­ rates and paying direct taxation. I can also sidered by the Government Property Trus­ assure her that at the present moment the tees. learned Attorney's department is looking very closely at this and a new draft will be brought forward In the legislation to try and clarify the position and, where pos­ sible, close ithe loopholes that have in the PEDLARS’ LICENCES — past existed. CONTRIBUTIONS GAINED BY ISLE OF MAN EXCHEQUER — QUESTION BY MRS. HANSON. Members: Hear, hear.

The Governor: Question number 9. I Mrs. Hanson: May I ask a supplemen­ call upon the hon. member for West Dou­ tary question, Your Excellency? Is the glas, Mrs. Hanson. Chairman aware that under the existing

Pedlars’ Licences — Contributions Gained by Isle of Man Exchequer — Question by Mrs. Hanson. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1299 legislation it is possible for a firm from receipt of the letter. That was on 1st Feb­ the United Kingdom to trade for a number ruary. It was a very fruitful meeting and of weeks on payment of a licence fee of one assumes that legislation is now being £1 only by virtue of a nominee who has the drawn up by the parliamentary draftsman. necessary three years' consecutive resi­ dence in the Island? And it is also possible Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I see under the present legislation for a non­ no necessity to answer the hon. member resident trader to register a company in because he has answered his own ques­ the Isle of Man for the purpose of carrying tion! He has already said that the legisla­ out trade on one or two days a year only, tion is being drafted by the learned Attor­ thus avoiding the necessity to obtain a ney-General. I can assure him that where- pedlar's certificate at the increased fees ever possible . . . presently contained in the Government circular. Mr. Lowey: It is over a year later.

Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I am Mr. P. Radcliffe: That may be, but do not very well aware of the two points the hon. go into detail because if you like to go member has made, and as I have said to back in history it may have taken a long her, I assure you that this matter has been time for the reply to come back in the looked at and where possible steps will be first place from the first department re­ taken to have the matter rectified. sponsible. I am not going to go into the details of it. What I am saying at the present moment is that I have every confi­ Mr. Lowey: A supplementary, Your Ex­ dence that the learned Attorney will have cellency? Is the hon. Chairman of the Fin­ this drafted legislation before us very soon. ance Board not aware that on 15th June 1979 the Consumer Council submitted their Mr. Creer: It was a good supplementary report on the whole subject of pedlars’ though. (Laughter.) licences, including the revision of other fees charged under the Act, to His Excel­ Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I would lency in Executive Council, of which the like to thank the hon. Chairman for his hon. Chairman of Finance Board is a mem­ reply. ber? In that submission, sir, we sent a covering note because we pointed out the The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I very point that the hon. Chairman has am happy to support what the hon. Chair­ raised this morning, that further investiga­ man of Finance Board has said. There is, tions have ascertained that it was possible however, a basic problem here, of course. for a non-resident trader to register a com­ Any trader outside the Isle of Man can pany in the Isle of Man for the purpose of establish an agency with a business ins;de carrying out trade on one or two days a the Island, and there is nothing to stop a year only, thus avoiding the necessity to person forming a company within the obtain a pedlar’s certificate. We requested Island which then becomes a separate legal that this anomaly be drawn to the attention entity liable to pay Manx income tax and of the legal draftsman; this was on 15th carry on a separate business like any other June 1979. Executive Council replied and company. The fact that the promoters of a considered this report in January of this company may be businessmen outside the year in the absence of the Consumer Coun­ Island, of course, has no legal effect what­ cil, and we were told that it was very soever. Once a company is incorporated in “wishy-washy” and would we have a meet­ the Isle of Man it then takes on a separate, ing with the Attorney-General and the Chief independent, legal existence, pays its Constable, which we did within 10 days of fees to the company registry, pays its tax to

Pedlars’ Licences — Contributions Gained by Isle of Man Exchequer — Question by Mrs. Hanson. T1300 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 the Treasurer, and carries on like any othsr cessing in connection with tax demands of the many hundreds, and thousands in­ both in the interests of efficiency and to deed, of businesses established in the restore public confidence in this Govern­ Island. There is a basic misunderstanding ment’s administration? here. Once you have established a Manx company you then have an independent Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I and organisation which must pay tax and if, in my colleagues on the Finance Board are fact, it acts as an agent for a business always eager to do what we can to im­ outside the Island, presumably it is going prove the efficiency of the administration to make some profit on the transaction of Government. We accept that the income and pay tax in the Island on that business. tax collection section of the Treasury is So there is a fundamental difficulty which not operating as smoothly as we would no amount of legislation will overcome and, like but it has to be realised that 48,000 equally, a private individual in the Island, assessments were processed in the year say members of this Court who wished to 1979/80, and in that large number one set up in any particular trade are entitled must expect some mistakes. The vast to do so and if they wish to act as agents majority of errors arise simply because of for a business outside the Island then they the failure of individuals and employers are fully entitled to do so and if, in fact, to supply basic information. First, many they only operate for two weeks a year as people fail to submit to the Assessor of In­ agents for a business outside the Island, come Tax a return of their income and who can stop them? There is a fundamental this results in the issue of a default assess­ difficulty here which is being looked at but ment. Subsequent action on that default there is no easy answer. If there was, I am assessment involves a considerable sure it would have been found long before amount of work, work that often would now but it is under close consideration and have been unnecessary if the individual there will In any event be a consolidating concerned had supplied particulars of his Bill brought forward in the autumn to the income in the first place. Secondly, the Legislature which at least will make the income tax instalments payments system matter clearer. Whether it will solve all the relies on information supplied by em­ anxieties of members of the Court, I doubt, ployers. The Income Tax Instalments Pay­ because I do not think there is an answer ments Regulations require employers to to the real problem which has been raised. complete the income tax instalments pay­ ment reference numbers on deduction cards but this does not happen and it is estimated that at least 80 per cent, of the INCOME TAX — IMPROVEMENT IN DATA cards received are not numbered. Even PROCESSING — QUESTION BY MRS. the cards that have been completed tend CHRISTIAN. to be numbered incorrectly and it has, therefore, been found necessary to check The Governor: Question number 10, the every card. A recent report by the Civil Ser­ hon. member for Ayre, Mrs. Christian. vice Commission organisation and methods team, which recently undertook Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I beg the review of the tax collection system, to ask the Chairman of the Finance concluded with the following comment on Board:— Whereas the number of the question of incomplete and inaccurate erroneous demands issued in respect of deduction cards. It said, “ If this one prob­ income tax would appear to substantiate lem could be solved, it would consider­ the popular view that some government ably ease the burden on this section.” I, departments are inefficient, will you under­ therefore, welcome this opportunity, Your take to seek improvements in data pro­ Excellency, once again to stress to indi­

Income Tax — Improvement in Data Processing — Question by Mrs. Christian. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1930 T1301 viduals and employers the importance of body. If there is any dissatisfaction in any supplying Government promptly and accu­ service connected with the Government, I rately with the required information. If this try to find out where faults lie and try to is done the number of errors will become a improve them. I appreciate that some of small fraction of their present number. Our the notes that have been sent out have, efficiency has improved significantly and possibly, been ill-drafted, some of them, I will do so further following the implemen- will admit, have gone to the wrong people, *ation of some of the recommendations re­ but I would also say that of the number sulting from the organisation and methods that have been sent out we have benefited, review to which I have earlier referred. and this is one very important fact that we must not forget, that if the Government are Mrs. Christian: A supplementary ques­ owed income tax and if there are occa­ tion, Your Excellency? Whilst appreciating sionally mistakes, we apologise for those that some of the fault lies with the public, mistakes, but we have through sending out would you not acknowledge that there are those letters received over the past few also many errors made within the depart­ weeks an extra £3J million into the ment itself and will you assure us that so Treasury and if we are going to get results far as possible the procedures which are of this kind you cannot expect to get them adopted there for processing correct infor­ without sometimes stepping on some­ mation which they receive is improved? body’s toes and we have got to take steps to get the money that we are owed. In refe­ Dr. Moore: May I ask a supplementary rence to the hon. member for Council who too, Your Excellency? In view of the flood referred to default assessments, this has of threatening notices, pay within seven concerned me for quite a considerable days or be sued, issued by the Treasury time. As a matter of fact, the Finance with respect to income tax recently and in Board, feeling that our assessment view of the difficulty and delays taxpayers arrangements could be improved, visited have had in gaining access to a respon­ Jersey and had lengthy talks with the de­ sible official to clarify matters, will you partment down there as to how their sys­ give an assurance that more time will be tem works and, possibly, we will be putting given to sort out misunderstandings be­ suggestions forward to improve our own. fore court proceedings are started? There is nothing more annoying than to see in the local press some time ago a head­ Mr. Kneale: A supppementary, Your Ex­ line saying that the Manx Government cellency? Will you agree that some of the were owed £10 million in income tax. To assessments in default which have been me, it is appalling to think that the man- sent out by the income tax department in-the-street who is paying income tax in­ have been ridiculously high and have led stalment payments gets his income tax de­ to the belief that there are many millions ducted from his wages every week and yet, of pounds owed in income tax, which is possibly, companies can go on using what not true? Will you undertake to have the they owe to the Government and holding procedure for issuing such assessments back their payments as long as possible looked at closely so that when they are and possibly have the money invested and sent out in default the assessments are getting a good rate of interest on it. It realistic and not ridiculous? clearly comes back to the situation that the Assessor of Income Tax can only Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Your Excellency, in assess in default if people do not send in answer to all three members, I would say returns and the amount of money generally first of all in reply to the hon. member for that has been estimated as being owed to Ayre, well, I did answer the question in the the Government, a great amount of it has first place. I am not covering up for any­ been in default assessments and, in realis­

Income Tax — Improvement in Data Processing — Question by Mrs. Christian. T1302 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 tic figures, I do not suppose they are owed evidence of stable marketing. Since the a quarter of that amount of money. But I Board of Agriculture and Fisheries com­ can assure every member of this Court that missioned the report into the horticultural within the next year we will be taking steps industry, Mr. P. D. Lees of the advisory to see that the proceedings are improved service of the Ministry has made three if not completely altered, considerably im­ visits to the Island and has held discus­ proved, and we apologise, or I apologise sions with glasshouse and vegetable pu'olicly to anybody who has had a mis­ growers and retailers. He has also visited taken assessment sent to them and I a number of holdings of various sizes will certainly see that steps are taken, as throughout the Island. It is understood that I have said already, to see that the situa­ he has now practically completed his en­ tion is more beneficial to us all but also quiries and was originally aiming for the that it will be workable and that we will be submission of a draft report by mid-June. getting in as quickly as possible the money Unfortunately, because of the pressure of we have been owed. I do compliment those his Ministry commitments, this has not who have taken the steps in the Treasury materialised and it is now anticipated that department to acquire for the Manx Gov­ a draft of his report will be submitted to ernment a further £3£ million, but I do the Board towards the end of July or early think there are occasions when mistakes August. It may be worthy of note though are made and, as I said, I apologise for that since this enquiry began we have now those mistakes. a regular visit from one of the horticultural advisory officers of the Ministry on a monthly basis which I think is becoming fairly popular amongst the growers, to go HORTICULTURAL INDUSTRY — round and deal with any problems that PROPOSED REPORT — QUESTION arise on a continuing basis and I can as­ BY MR. J. N. RADCLIFFE. sure the hon. member that the Board will be looking into this sector with some The Governor: Question number 11. I thoroughness in the future. call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Norman Radcliffe. Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, a supplementary if I may? The hon. Chair­ Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I man of the Board of Agriculture mentioned beg to ask the Chairman of the Board of that an adviser was calling monthly now. Is Agriculture and Fisheries :— In view of the this, in fact, on a very definite day each fact that some time ago your Board com­ month because I was told of a grower who missioned Mr. Lees of the A.D.A.S. to pre­ enquired into when the gentleman would pare a report on the state of the horticul­ be on the Island next and he was told by, tural industry on the Island and to make presumably, office staff that they just did recommendations regarding this industry, not know and when one has plant disease are you able to inform this hon. Court as it is essential that the job is done on the to when the proposed report is likely to spot rather than parcelling it up and send­ be made available? ing it across, and it deteriorates greatly anyway. So I wonder if he could say, is it Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I thank the the second Wednesday in the month, the hon. member for Ayre for his continued first Wednesday, or whatever? Also, sir, interest in agriculture and horticulture. I if I could ask the hon. Chairman to press do share his concern over the horticultural for this report as a matter of very extreme enquiry because this sector, like many urgency because I would ask him, is he others, is suffering from high costs and aware of the fact that growers are now is, on the whole, fragmented and rather placing orders for crops which will be har­ diverse in its type of production, with little vested, particularly in the way of flowers,

Horticultural Industry — Proposed Report — Question by Mr. J. N. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1303

in the autumn of 1981, and many growers, Board reserves the right to fix age limits therefore, will shortly be committed totally for applicants for awards. Such age limits to their 1981 crops. He must agree that it vary according to the type of course to be is unfair to this industry which is undertaken. At the present time age limits struggling to cope with exorbitant costs of are as follows. For university and degree fuel, fertilizer et cetera, that in view of the courses candidates must not have at­ fact that they could be growing the wrong tained the age of 26 on 31st July in the first crops in any case, this report must be year of the award. In exceptional cases treated as vitally urgent and I would add the Board may consider the possibility of that my continued interest in the whole making an award to a candidate who is affair is because I am being pressurised over 26. In the case of candidates for from behind by the horticultural industry. courses at Colleges of Further Education upper age limits are not prescribed. For Dr. Mann: I do not know whether that other courses candidates must have at­ was a speech or a supplementary question. tained the age of 16 and not attained the (Laughter.) age of 28 at the time of the award. In ex­ ceptional cases the Board may consider Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: It was a question. the possibility of making an award to a Dr. Mann: Certainly I will press for this candidate who is over 28. In all cases ex­ report. I have pressed for this report every ceptional circumstances are circumstan­ time we have had a meeting. As far as the ces which apply to the particular regular visits are concerned, they are ar­ student concerned and each case ranged through the Board’s agricultural ad­ is decided on its merits. Questions viser who tries to do some preliminary in­ considered to be relevant are the extent vestigation, get in touch with the adviser to which the student's age exceeds the and, of course, of necessity, tries to get prescribed usual maxima, the number of together as many visits as possible on one working years which will remain available day, so there is not a regular day each to him on the completion of the course, month but I am certain if the person con­ his or her ability to complete successfully cerned spoke to the adviser he would most the course to be 'taken, career prospects certainly have the service he requires. in the particular field undertaken, and the family and home circumstances of the student, taking into account the fact that MATURE STUDENTS AT RECOGNISED absence on the course may cause hard­ UNIVERSITIES OR COLLEGES OF ship to ethers in the family, in respect of FURTHER EDUCATION — ASSISTANCE whom adequate financial arrangements — QUESTION BY MR. ANDERSON. would be required to be made. In assess­ ing the ability of the student to complete The Governor: Question number 12. The the course in higher education proposed, hon. member for Glenfaba. one would be guided by the views of the academic institution concerned as well as Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to by evidence of the applicant’s attainments ask the Chairman of the Board of Educa­ to date, along with the more general con­ tion :— What provision does your Board siderations of good character and a make to assist mature students wishing to willingness to apply himself or herself with attend full-time courses at recognised Uni­ diligence to the task ahead. versities or Colleges of Further Education? Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, could I Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, the regu­ ask the hon. member a supplementary? lations operated by my Board appertaining Would she not agree that, in fact, in the to mature students are as follows: The United Kingdom these are much more

Mature Students at Recognised Universities or Colleges of Further Education — Assistance — Question by Mr. Anderson. T1304 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

generous and people up to the age of Merchant Navy for books, we do do that, 40 can be given assistance towards educa­ but if the hon. member would care to call tion and have in the past been found to at my Board's offices or, indeed, I will have given very great service for many arrange that she gets a written reply to this years to the public in general? request.

Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, could I Mr. Anderson: I thank the hon. Chair­ ask a supplementary? Examination fees man for her reply. are pretty high these days and there are two types that I would particularly like to ask you about. Are those people who enrol for the Open University, living at home and LEGACY OF LATE MRS. POWYS COBB working for their qualifications, entitled to OF BALLAUGH — UTILISATION — any financial help? When it comes to QUESTION BY MR. WARD. people, for example, in the Merchant Navy who want to take examinations for their The Governor: Question number 13. i ticket for promotion, can they get assis­ call upon the hon. member for South tance? Douglas.

Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, as re­ Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I beg to gards the hon. member for Glenfaba’s ask the question standing in the name question about the grants in the United of my fellow member:— Will you ad­ Kingdom, I must point out that grants for vise this hon. Court what progress has mature students are not mandatory, they been made by your Board in utilising the are discretionary, and I am Chairman of legacy of the late Mrs. Powys Cobb of the Committee which agrees to these Ballacum, Ballaugh? grants and I have a very strong opinion, and whilst I have been Chairman, we are Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, it was the benevolent never mind generous, with wish of the late Mrs. Powys Cobb, as ex­ these grants. One must remember that pressed in her will, that the residue of her when a mature student applies for a grant estate should be used for the extension of we have to consider his income, his finan­ the complex which she so generous'y cial ability, just as ordinary students of donated at Ballaugh named Ballacobb 18, we have to consider their family in­ Close. The Board, unfortunately, has had come and all these things have to be con­ difficulty in obtaining planning permission sidered. As for financial help for the Open to extend the complex in pursuance of her University, yes, the Open University wishes. New plans have now been pre­ students when they go on summer courses pared and have been submitted to the get their travel paid, they get part of their Local Government Board with an applica­ fees paid at the summer courses, and we tion for planning permission, also arrange facilities for them at the r ~ — ' — — College of Further Education. We have a Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, may Council permanently in the Island, and we I ask a supplementary? Is it a fact that arrange facilities there for the lectures for one of these houses in Ballacurn has been them. lying empty for something like eight months and could it be a contributory fac­ Mrs. Quayle: I asked about the Merchant tor that no-one seems to know, or cer­ Navy. tainly the outside public do not seem to Mrs. Hanson: Now that I am unable to know, that there is a fairly reasonable rent reply to. I do know we give a grant to on these buildings and could I ask the

Legacy of Late Mrs. Powys Cobb of Ballaugh — Utilisation — Question by Mr. Ward. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1305

hon. Chairman, should they not advertise call upon the hon. member for Garff, Dr. and, in fact, build more buildings of this Mann. type in order to free Local Government Board houses which are tied up with single Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to ask elderly tenants and free those houses in the Chairman of the Select Committee on order that some of our housing problems the Common Market:— (1) Would you treat could be solved? as a matter of urgency the establishment of clear lines of communication between Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the posi­ the Isle of Man Government and the E.E.C. tion has been advertised and we do find Commission without the extensive delays at from time to time that there are difficulties present being experienced with the exist­ in getting people into Ballacobb Close and ing system? (2) Would you give an one of the hopes is, of course, that it be­ assurance that the interests and policies comes more of a community in the new of individual Boards of the Isle of Man plans which are now in front of the Local Government will be promoted and sup­ Government Board. There is even provision ported by the Select Committee in future for warden accommodation and also a relationships with the Community? community complex. It is hoped, in fact, The Speaker: Your Excellency, if I were if it does go ahead with the extension that to treat the hon. member's question in a it would become more of a complex and, facetious manner, I would refer him to an therefore, generate its own community interview which took place on Monday be­ spirit more than at present. tween a member of Manx Radio’s staff and Lord Belstead, who has responsibility under Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, Her Majesty’s United Kingdom Govern­ could I ask a further supplementary? Has ment’s Home Secretary for matlers relating the Board of Social Security ever con­ to the Isle of Man. That interview was sub­ sidered the possibility of this little housing sequently broadcast to the Manx people estate being administered by a purely local and I quote from the transcript — The committee with, perhaps, one Board of interviewer: "Perhaps if I might be so bold, Social Security representative on it rather and not in an attempt to be discourteous to than the old people’s committee of his yourself, who is obviously keen to foster present Board? a relationship between the two Govern­ ments, I think it has been said in the past Mr. Cringle: The answer is no, Your Ex­ that delegation on various subjects have cellency, we have not considered that. tried to penetrate the Home Office, as it were, and have not always met with the Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Would he consider reception they would have wanted. They it, sir? (Laughter.) have not been able to get through to the famous spokesman at the top. What would Mr. Cringle: The answer is yes, Your you say to that, sir?” The reply: "Well, this Excellency. is why I have been at pains in the last few minutes in talking to you, Mr. Cannell, to explain that we do have a Committee which meets and I am the representative of the I.O.M. GOVERNMENT AND E.E.C. Home Secretary on it and I met Sir Charles COMMISSION — ESTABLISHMENT OF Kerruish and colleagues of his from here CLEAR LINES OF COMMUNICATION in London fairly recently when we dis­ ET CETERA — QUESTION BY DR. MANN. cussed matters of common concern. This is a link which is in working order.” The The Governor: Question number 14. I questioner: “So that is very good news

I.O.M. Government and E.E.C. Commission — Establishment of Clear Lines of Communication Et Cetera — Question by Dr. Mann. T1306 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

indeed, I think, for everyone in the Isle of National Farmers’ Union and the Agricul­ Man.” Like the interviewer, if that state­ tural Marketing Society — “ obtained at the ment, made in good faith, I am sure, were meeting was informal oral advice and was true, i.t would be good news indeed and not and, indeed, could never have been a your question would be answered by it, definitive statement." Apart from this par­ but regrettably, having only an element of ticular example, the whole issue is now truth, it is a good example of the gulf that being taken up with the Joint Standing all too often exists between theory and Committee on the Common Interests of the reality leading one to wonder whether per­ Isle of Man who, although in the terms of sons exercising such responsibilities know the Stonham recommendations, are the ulti­ what goes on in their own offices and while mate line of approach to the Home Office, it would be perfectly correct to say that this find themselves unable to make the Court’s Constitutional Committee have had arrangements for the necessary meetings full co-operation from the Home Office in that they would desire. We have a pursuing their remit so far, it certainly request in for a meeting dating from 24th would not be correct to say that that has March and to date we have been unable been the case with other very important to arrange such a meeting. As regards the committees— it simply is not so. So in direct second part of the hon. member’s question, reply to the first part of the hon. member I do not think there has been any occasion for Garff's question, I would say that the upon which the Common Market Commit­ establishment of clear lines of communica­ tee has been opposed to any policies put tion between the Isle of Man Government forward by individual Government Boards and the European Economic Community although there have been cases where Commission is being treated as a matter policies having European Economic Com­ of urgency; that the dilatory manner in munity implications have been put forward which the Home Office presently acts as or adopted by Boards without the Commit­ go-between is most unsatisfactory and tee being advised or consulted. So I would appear to be intended to prevent the happily give you the assurance that the Island’s elected representatives having Select Committee will always be prepared any direct access to the Commission so to consider Boards' interests and priorities that they may discuss any problems at first providing they do not conflict with the hand. As an example, I would refer to declared policy of this Court. events which occurred in 1979 when an unofficial visit to Brussels by a delegation Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, a supple­ representing sections of the Is'and’s mentary? In so far as there has been a agricultural industry resulted in a challenge degree of assurance given in regard to to the policies adopted by this Court in re­ the second question, would you not agree, gard to European Economic Community Mr. Speaker, that an individual Board's obligations. An immediate request was policy may, indeed, not be the policy of the made to the Home Office for clarification Isle of Man Government? In this instance of the points raised to be sought from the would it not be better for any Board wish­ European Commission. This request was ing to pursue a matter either inter-Govern- sent on 1st November 1979. By letter dated mentally or internationally, to have their 20th May 1980 we have been advised thai policy categorically endorsed here in this on 14th May 1980 such request was finally hon. Court, whereupon the Select Commit­ submitted to the Commission — a delay of tee would have far more power to its nearly six months. Incidentally, that letter elbow? also indicates that with respect to the dele­ gation in question, and I quote, "that any The Speaker: I would agree with the information they” — that is, the Manx hon. member, Your Excellency.

I.O.M. Government and E.E.C. Commission — Establishment of Clear Lines of Communication Et Cetera — Question by Dr. Mann. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1307

Mr. Waiterson: Your Excellency, one moment then that will be the time for a further supplementary? In the light of the completely separate approach from this recent radio interview to which Mr. Speaker Island. has referred, the interview given by Lord Belstead, the Parliamentary Under-Secre­ Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I thank the tary of State at the Home Office, would Mr. hon. Mr. Speaker for his assurance on the Speaker agree with me that the matters first part of the question. I would like to raised by the hon. member for Garff are ask him as a supplementary whether in his now even more urgent, particularly as the reply to the second part he was, in fact, Under-Secretary appears to be confused referring to the Board of Agriculture seek­ over the Island’s relationship with the ing permission to be consulted or brought Crown and, even further, he seems to be into consultation urgently over the matter totally unaware of the circumstances relat­ of negotiations in the sheep meat regime ing to the international agreements on which we did make directly to the Home broadcasting, for example, for which he is Office as a matter of urgency? responsible. The Speaker: I was not in particular re­ The Governor: It is out of order. ferring to that issue, sir. I did have it in mind, but there are other instances where Mr. Watterson: If I may finish then, Your Boards have, shall I say, sidestepped the Excellency. European 'Economic Community Commit­ The Governor: Kindly stick to the main tee’s remit and I do not think it is in the question, will you please? interests of the Court that Tynwald should be seen to be speaking with more than Mr. Watterson: Does this not show a one voice on any European Economic need for the Island to have direct contact Community issue. with the international authorities to which the question is directed, such as the Euro­ Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, follow­ pean Economic Community Commission, ing the answer to that question, could I on matters of common concern to us all to ask a supplementary? Would Mr. Speaker ensure that the needs of the Island, which not agree that, in fact, one of the prob­ are at present represented by United King­ lems I should think the Home Office have dom officials, and the needs of the Manx is deliberating with so many committees. people do not take second place to United We have got the Constitutional Committee, Kingdom policies as they appear to have we have got the European Economic Com­ done on the broadcasting issue and that munity Committee, we have got Standing attention is given to our wishes by people Orders Committee, we have got so many who are in possession of the true facts? committees that if Executive Council got down and did its job and acted for the The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am not Government we would have one commit­ in a position to reply in relation to Broad­ tee representing our views without every­ casting Commission matters. I would say, body else getting involved in it. however, that in respect of Common Market Committee affairs, of course we seek ac­ The Speaker: I would not agree with the cess to the Common Market and of course hon. member. The committees he has with our constitutional relationship as it is named, of course, have no need or require­ at the moment, inevitably we must progress ment to in any way approach the Home that approach through the Home Office. Office but it is a matter for this Court to When hon. members reach the stage where determine which committees represent they have, shall I say, a greater degree of them. They have already done so and I autonomy than they possess at the present feel sure that the Court’s interests are

I.O.M. Government and E.E.C. Commission — Establishment of Clear Lines of Communication Et Cetera — Question by Dr. Mann. T1308 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 being dealt with effectively by the per­ able and I would think on average possibly, sonnel of those committees. with the exception of the Customs and Excise, in the region of £500 to £1,000. That would be the average cost. I would like to assure Mr. Speaker and the hon. WORK PERMITS — PERSONS Court that the Civil Service Commission APPOINTED TO GOVERNMENT always try and select the best person for SERVICE DURING PAST 12 MONTHS the job and I think that is essential, but — QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER. whilst saying that I would also like to say that every consideration is given to Isle The Governor: Can we go back then, of Man workers. hon. members, to question number 2 which we deferred in the absence of the Chair­ The Speaker: A further supplementary man of the Civil Service Commission. I with Your Excellency’s permission? You call upon the hon. Mr. Speaker. treated the major component part of your reply as an exception. Would you state The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to what it has been costing the Isle of Man ask the Chairman of the Civil Service Com­ Government to bring the personnel of the mission:— What number of persons re­ Customs service to the Island — what that quiring work permits have joined the Gov­ can cost per individual? ernment Service during the past 12 months and what responsibilities do they dis­ Mr. Callin: That, Your Excellency, by charge? special agreement, does cost considerably more than it does for anyone else and I Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I would first think the average cost for the movement of all like to apologise to you and to the of a Customs officer in the United King­ Court for not being in my seat at the appro­ dom, and we have not got all our costings priate time this morning. To answer Mr. in as yet, but I think it is in the region of Speaker’s question, with the exception of £7,000 to £8,000. the Customs service for which 16 work permits have been granted, seven other The Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. permanent appointments have been made The Governor: That finishes the question of persons requiring work permits and they paper, hon. members. are the head of the Forestry Board, the factory and safety inspector of the Local Government Board, the public health in­ spector of the Local Government Board, BILLS FOR SIGNATURE — REQUISITE the economist at the Treasury, a prison SIGNATURES OBTAINED. officer at Her Majesty’s prison, road safety The Governor: The four Bills which were officer of the Highway Board and an air listed for signature all have been signed traffic control officer for the Airports Board. by a quorum of both Branches. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am grateful to the hon. Chairman for his reply and I wonder, perhaps, if he could indicate COMMISSION ON THE REPRESEN­ in respect of the cases he has mentioned, TATION OF THE PEOPLE ACTS— what is the sort of cost of bringing per­ MOTION AMENDED AND APPENDIX sonnel of this nature generally to the Island? J ADOPTED.

Mr. Callin: The cost, Your Excellency, The Governor: Item number 6, I call upon cam be — not always — it can be consider­ the Chairman of Executive Council.

Work Permits — Persons Appointed to Government Service During Past 12 Months — Question by the Speaker. — Bills for Signature — Requisite Signatures Obtained. •— Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J. Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1309

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to of the Island their neighbours can choose move:— two or three. I can understand that certain people do not want to see any changes in That Tynwald approve the adoption of constituency boundaries but I think they a system of two-member constituencies as might as well face up to it now that if we set out in Appendix F of the Report of do not win it today it will not be very long the Commission on the Representation of before there are major changes in boun­ the People Acts dated 26th March 1980. daries in the constituencies in the Isle of Man. What really disturbed me on the last (Notice of motion given in terms of occasion we discussed this matter was the Standing Order 70 on the 17th June attitude of two hon. members of the Coun­ 1980). cil. (Interruption.) One might say, mem­ bers for the constituency of Ayre. We did I would remind hon. members that the see in the last-debate the rhetorical power Commission was set up because there was of the constituency of Ayre in this Court, a feeling in this Court of inequality in the two hon. members who did represent voting rights of the electorate of the Isle that constituency in the past. of Man and there is no doubt, and hon. members must now agree after reading A member: You sent them up. the report, studying the figures, and so on, that there are great inequalities in elections in the Isle of Man and I believe it is up to Mr. Irving: We did, sir, we sent them up. this Court to ensure that the Manx elector I have never believed that we should have gets a square deal. Now the main in­ regional representation in the Legislative equality rests in the fact that certain Council. I have always thought that any­ people in certain constituencies in the Isle body who goes up there should take a of Man can choose, can vote for three statesman’s view of Manx affairs. (In­ representatives in the House of Keys, terruption.) I am now disappointed that two others can vote for two representatives and hon. members cannot shake the dust of certainly some of them can vote for one their constituency off their boots and act only. I am sure that hon. members must like statesmen and say that there are feel that this is an important inequality. these enormous inequalities and we, as Quite irrespective of the number of voters members of the Legislative Council, are per member, it is quite wrong that certain put there to see these sort of things do not electors here in the Island should have continue. If we do not have hon. members three choices for membership of the House of this Council acting as statesmen, what of Keys and others merely one and I con­ is the point of having a Legislative Council? sider the attitude shown on the last occa­ We might as well forget it unless we can sion on which we debated this subject by put people there who will do the right the hon. member for Castletown and I thing for the people of the Isle of Man. assume that we might well see a similar (Interruptions and laughter.) I do not think, attitude displayed — (interruption)— not sir, it is going to do the slightest good by you, sir, by the hon. member for Kirk — (laughter)— but it makes me feel a Michael, and it is going to be very interest­ great deal better. We are going to find ing indeed to hear the reasons that these again this morning the old argument that hon. members are going to put forward to there has been no demand for it. Hon. these people in their constituency that they members forget that most of the things should be regarded as second-class elec­ they do in this Court, there is never any tors — (laughter)— because that indeed is demand for them, and I would have thought what they are. They are allowed to choose electoral justice in the Isle of Man would one representative whereas in other parts not need a demand from the electorate. I

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1310 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

would have thought now this has been given line. I would suggest to you that the pointed out to hon. members that they will Commission in this recommendation, the not be saying there Is no demand for this recommendation which is in front of us as change, we must wait until the next Elec­ Appendix F, they have come almost to per­ tion and put it to the people then. Put it fection to staying with the old parish boun­ to the people then under the present un­ daries. I know it was said at the last sitting fair system of voting? This is like putting of this hon. Court that, in fact, we were to the members of the House of Keys throwing away the Sheading and boundary many years ago, do you think we should basis. If you look at it there is less altera­ continue to be self-elected? It is just as tion in the Sheading and parish boundaries fair. We are now suggesting that it should by this method than by other methods and be put to people who have these enormous certainly there is less of a division of the inequalities of voting as to whether there Isle of Man or less crossing the natural should be fairness, justice, electoral justice boundaries of the Isle of Man. Even their for the Manx people. I beg to move. recommendation J, the one that goes down the full length, shall we say, from the Point IV!r. Cringle: I beg to second, Your Excel­ of Ayre down to Patrick on that coast of lency, but in order that the debate may be the Isle of Man, that, effectively, does cross short this morning, supporting the Chair­ natural boundaries, the hills and the natural man of Executive Council in moving this, I divisions in the Isle of Man. This recom­ was thinking that today we have the oppor­ mendation in Appendix F does not cross tunity to forget, if you like, to some extent, natural boundaries at all. It does give, as I our own immediate constituency boun­ see it, near enough equality. The Isle of daries. We have the opportunity today to Man has always been to the forefront of settle once and for all this century the equality when it comes to voting. We were electoral justice of the voters of the Isle prepared, or our forefathers were prepared of Man, as the Chairman of Executive to give the females the vote in the Isle of Council who has just moved the resolution Man. You have the opportunity today, has said. There are certainly inequalities in working with a single transferable voting the voting in the Isle of Man where you system, to give complete equality to the have three and single-seat constituencies. voters of the Isle of Man, everyone, as I I am perfectly aware that by acceptance said, going to the ballot box knowing that of the single transferable vote we have, to they have two representatives. some extent, removed some of the in­ equalities. However, we have today the The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to opportunity in this motion to say to the oppose the resolution and I do so because people of the Isle of Man, each and every it is a resolution that is inimical to the person in the Isle of Man almost numeric­ interests of the Manx people as a whole. ally correct, that they will each be voting It is divisive, it ignores historical, on a single transferable vote system for geographical and proven administrative two people. Every person on the Isle of boundaries, pays insufficient regard to Man will have two representatives when recognised social patterns, and although it they go to the ballot box. Now that, to my is implied in the report, the Commission mind, is an important factor, and a very did not receive public representations important factor. I have looked at the busi­ which would justify any major change, let ness of whether or not there are going to alone the proposals they have submitted, be major constituency changes, and, of and they are, of course, reflected in this course, no matter when or no matter where resolution. Now if, Your Excellency, that you drawn a given line, somebody is going were not enough, one of the Commission’s to be immediately on the wrong side of that suggestions that we are being asked to

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1311 endorse today is the one that they them­ They are the Cameroons, the Ivory Coast, selves did not find acceptable. However, Monaco, Senegal, Israel and the Nether­ hoin. members, you, as experienced lands. They have done so on the basis of politicians, are well aware that in this treating the country, as the hon. member Legislature, and presumably in others, you for Glenfaba, Mr. Anderson, suggested we can suddenly find yourselves confronted might do in an earlier debate, as one con­ with a proposal that makes you shudder, stituency — a solution which I doubt would and rightly you ask, where did this come be acceptable to the Manx people — and, from and what is the fount from which it perhaps, worthy of note is the fact that has sprung? And on finding that it is the three of the six countries I have mentioned long term outcome of an earlier decision operate a Party system with no opposition you may well ask, did the seed that was whatsoever. I feel that we, hon. members, planted in the form of that earlier resolu­ in agreeing the ideal must, nevertheless, tion here warrant a delicate miniature like the major number of countries that growth or, as in this case, an ugly bean­ make up the United Nations itself ensure stalk which is of hideous proportions. This that our approach to its implementation is being so, I think we should recall this a practical one. The resolution of that day morning, Your Excellency, the resolution from the hon. member of Council next re­ tabled on 20th June 1979 by the hon. mem­ ferred to the European Community and in ber of Council, Mr. MacDonald, which read: this respect we have no problem. The "(1) That Tynwald Count accepts the prin­ European Declaration in Article 10 merely ciple of universal suffrage and confirms its requires freedom of expression. Now the adherence to the United Nations, European final part of the introduction to that resolu­ Community and British ideal of one man, tion made reference to the British ideal one vote, for one representative in all elec­ of one man, one vote, which, of course, is tions to the House of Keys or other repre­ what we have, but let us for a moment sentative authorities. (2) Tynwald requests examine the pattern of evolution of the Your Excellency in Executive Council to electoral system in Britain. For them, the appoint a Commission of Inquiry to investi­ attainment of the universal suffrage and gate and report within one year on how one man, one vote, has been a gradual the principle in (1) above can be implemen­ process over the years since the Reform ted thus ensuring that the Manx electorate Act of 1884 which effectively enfranchised have absolute equality in choosing the about 60 per cent of adult males. There representatives they seek and thus reflect remained seven different kinds of qualifi­ the wishes and desires of the majority of cation and plural voting was permitted for the electorate.” In that resolution we were persons with more than one of them. The asked to conform and adhere to the United Representation of the People Act of 1918 Nations declaration of principle on extending the franchise restricted plural universal suffrage. Obviously hon. members voting to owners of business property and will have examined Article 20 of the to university graduates in 12 university Universal Declaration on Human Rights in seats. In 1928 women were put on the which this is embodied and you will have same basis as men and 1948 removed found that it states: "The will of the people plural voting, abolishing the university and must be the basis of the authoriy of Gov­ business votes and 1969 saw the lowering ernment and that will should be expressed of the voting age to 18. Now while equality through periodic elections and equal of size of constituencies is a general suffrage.” If you examine the electoral principle embodied in the Representation position of the 50 major members of the of the People Act in the United Kingdom of United Nations you will find that six at least, 1918, that principle of equality of size of in theory, have complied with the resolution. constituencies has been clarified by them

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1312 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 in four ways and this has been done in the this — administrative convenience and the instructions given to the Boundary Com­ boundaries of local government, geo­ mission who have the duty of implementing graphical and natural regions. Now, Your that Act. The first qualification is that as Excellency, having accepted these varying far as is practicable, administrative areas objectives in the first part of the Mac­ should not be divided between constitu­ Donald 1979 resolution, we then accepted encies. The second, that Scotland, Wales a Commission of Inquiry to tell us how, and Northern Ireland should be given bearing in mind the points I have men­ special treatment. The third, the Boundary tioned, and if ever there was a contradic­ Commissioners might depart from the prin­ tion in terms we find it here, how we could ciple if special geographical considerations achieve absolute equality of representation. including, in particular, the area, shape and That, hon. members, was the task en­ accessibility of a constituency appeared to trusted to the Commission. It is obvious render this desirable. And finally, in making there is only one answer that anyone representations to Parliament the principle could give to that question and it does not of equality can be ignored by the Com­ require a Commission to produce it. To mission to avoid breaking what is termed achieve this the Island must be one con­ in their remit, local ties. As a result of stituency. Now the Commission, ignoring these particular qualifications, hon. mem­ the obvious, on the grounds, as we all bers, the number of voters in English con­ know, that such a proposal would be stituencies vary considerably. Meriden has totally unacceptable to the Manx people, today 96,000 voters, Newcastle-on-Tyne, set out, not to comply with the terms of 25.000, the average is, in fact, around the resolution, but to give us a variation, 64.000, but there are still five with over or variations, on the theme of representa­ 90.000, 49 with over 80,000 and seven tion which could take us closer to the under 40,000. If we turn our attention to ideals sought by the hon. member of the the Kilbrandon Commission report, they Council, while never achieving them. So stated that equality of size of constituencies rather like the chap who wrote the pam­ within the United Kingdom would reduce phlet called “The Specialist”, they pro­ the number of Scottish members of Parlia­ duced for us a report embodying a variety ment from 71 to 57, Welsh from 36 to 31, of possiblities. You will recall the one- but no attempt was made to achieve such member, two-member; two and three-mem­ an adjustment bearing in mind the four prin­ ber, three and four-member, and four- ciples which have been related to the member proposals which, as you know, are Boundary Commission’s work. This, hon. to be found in Appendices E to J, and the colleagues, is the situation which pertains rather loose recommendation on page 24 in the United Kingdom today, after reviews where in paragraph 45(il) the recommen­ in 1944, 1948, 1954 and 1971. It is interest­ dation that we should adopt a general ing, perhaps, to note too that the 1944 system of multi-seat constituencies with, Redistribution of Seats Act of the United for the most part, three members to a Kingdom recommended that all constituen­ constituency. Is it not strange that what­ cies be within 25 per cent, of the average ever it is worth the Commission’s recom­ national size but in 1948 this recommen­ mendation has been ignored by yet another dation was rejected as ¡impractical and Committee, Executive Council, who in turn although the Boundary Commission’s re­ have recommended .their own preference sponsibility again is to prevent discrepan­ and make no mistake here, hon. members, cies in size from becoming excessive, I this is a divided preference on the part of have just shown how large these can be, Executive Council, that preference being, they have at the same time to consider — of course, for two-member constituencies. and I would ask you particularly to note At this stage I feel it is fitting we should

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1313 ask ourselves how does this fit in with the Malew, 1; and Arbory, 1. Of course there generally accepted principle of the Mac­ has been change in representation but Donald resolution and, of course, the through if all we have maintained the old answer is that it does not as it is held historical divisions while creating new. in Britain that it would be illogical for However, if you look at Appendix F of your those who believe in government by the report which embodies today’s proposal people to insist on an electoral system for you will find not one Sheading or parish reasons of exact representation, equality of name figuring in the new constituency pat­ voting power, or any concept however tern. They, hon. members, are being rational if, in fact, these considerations did “ Butlerised". But my protest does not only not correspond with the wishes of the relate to the fact that Sheadings and people, however irrational their wishes may parishes go but equally forcefully to the appear to be. Now, equally, emphasising point that embodied here we have some of that this proposed solution does not meet -the most artificial boundaries being the point sought by the hon. member of created. Perhaps the new North East con­ Council, again we must ask, does it fully stituency represents the most remarkable recognise historical administrative units example of the failure to recognise natural such as parishes and Sheadings, does it divisions, affiliations and even social asso­ recognise political division, be it Labour or ciation. To take into this area a large seg­ be 'it Nationalist? Does it recognise ment of Onchan -in the Sheading of Garff sizeable minorities who must, if we are to is as ridiculous as it is to extend Garff into follow the guideline in terms of geo­ Onchan. Other examples, South Braddan graphical area, be absolutely and into South Central, Braddan North into adequately represented? Hon. members Douglas. W-ith our party system a point to know full well that it does not. What then, bear in mind and to question is will the I think we must question, is the effect of parties survive this onslaught? The its failure to do these things, taking first -northern plateau on a geographical basis the point of recognising established boun­ witnesses the amalgamation of two Shead­ daries. We proudly refer in our history, hon. ings, depriving its people of a minority members, and never more so than last year night and depriving Ramsey of its tradi­ on the occasion of the Millennium, to our tional support, while ironically we deprive Sheadings and our parishes and our history Castletown, the former seat of Government, portrays the fact that the Keys were chosen of its identity by labelling it loosely, South. by the country out of the Sheadings of the The whole thing is ludicrous. The quiet Isle. This reference is to be found in the evolution of decades .is to be destroyed in earliest book of records in the Isle of Man, one fell swoop. Is this, hon. members, the Liber Plitor or Book of the Court of within the will of the people, a point made Common Pleas of 1496, and again in the -in the Butler report when referring to asso­ Liber Cancellarius, the Chancery Book of ciated issues? The Commission obviously 1581. Interesting to note too that these contend -that it is and by im plication por­ were Sheadings with four seats to the tray the -evidence of the representatives of Sheading and that of course an integral -the people outside this Chamber, the town part of the Sheading was the parish with and village and parish commissioners in its stated representation within the greater support of that view. Now, Your Excellency, designation. The grouping of the 24, or the to be sure -that the views of the people Elders as they were described then, was, were embodied in any one of these pro­ Patrick, 2; German, 2; Michael, 2; Ballaugh, posals, and more particularly in this one, 1; Jurby, 1; Andreas, 2; Bride, 1; Lezayre, J asked for copies of the written evidence 1; Michael, 2; Lonan, 1; Conchan, 1; Brad- submitted by the 18 bodies of Commis­ dan, 2; Marown, 1; Santon, 1; Rushen, 2; sioners to the Commission. I was refused.

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1314 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

I was told they were secret and yet no change was sought by a minority and ¡indication of secrecy appears in the ad­ Ramsey, foir instance, asking for two one- vertisement and the invitation extended to man seats as opposed to the present dual them to give evidence. Now, to me, it is representation; ¡nothing wrong with that small wonder that somebody in Govern­ though we ¡are not giving it to them, it is ment decided that they were secret for a apparent, hon. members, that the evidence personal approach has revealed that the bears little relationship to the outcome'. great majority of these people who were The Manx people have not sought change, asked to give evidence, the Andreas and of one thing I am certain, implement Parish Commissioners, Ballaugh, Braddan, this proposal and there will be widespread Bride, the Borough of Douglas, the German discontent. It is not enough, in my opinion, Parish Commissioners, Jurby, Laxey, Lezayre, for the Electoral Reform Society, who do Marow.n, Onchan, Patrick, Peel, Port Erin, not seem to be doing too well in the Port St. ¡Mary, Ramsey and Santon, there United Kingdom, to tell us how to run our is not one that supports this particular pro­ affairs. It ¡is not enough for Dr. Butler and posal. The big majority, Your Excellency, hiis colleagues to say, cut every tie with if you examine the replies which I have the past, make the same mistakes that been given by all the Commissioners, are every emerging colony has made by against change — (interruptions)— they Anglicising your approach, when we full want no alteration, no change, and in the well know that our base here is not Eng­ case of Douglas Corporation, let us come lish, it is Nordic. Now, Your Excellency, back to the one that may be used here as that has been emphasised only too well the big stick to try and effect change, they this week. ¡It is not enough to accept the say that consideration should be given to sponsorship of a divided Executive the provision of single-seat constituencies Council who have been obliged to place throughout the Island. something before us so as not to discredit the Commission. What would be enough, Mr. Irving: Quite right too. in my opinion, would be the strict recog­ nition of the points made in the preamble The Speaker: Yes, well you are not pro­ to the MacDonald resolution, bearing in posing it. Many voters who believe in exer­ mind the interpretation placed on them in cising their democratic right become con­ the spheres in which they are applied. fused when wishing to vote for one can­ Today we must consider history, didate whom ¡they fully support in a multi­ consider local boundaries, we must con­ seat constituency and they go on to say sider geographical and natural alignments that the people of Braddan are not sup­ as well as equality of voting or we shall ported in the area and they are not truly stand condemned by the people of Man represented. Now, Your Excellency, here is whose will is not reflected in this resolu­ a proposal completely at variance with the tion and I would urge the Court to vote town that houses the major voting strength against it. of the Isle of Man. (Interruption.) 1 am quoting to you not from the members for Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I will be Douglas but from the representatives of brief because I think it has all been said. the people of Douglas in Douglas assem­ Mr. Speaker said, experienced politicians. bled, the Corporation, and we would have Well, as experienced politicians know, this been told that everybody in Douglas sup­ resolution ¡is going down. We already know ports this change as it is today proposed, what the word is, the word is out that mem­ and the truth is they do not. The majority, bers have changed their minds. You count I am going to say it again — I have here heads and we know. all the replies — no change was sought by the big majority, a limited degree of A member: Who said?

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted.

( TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1315

Mr. Defaney: We will see when we come section explaining this wonderful Island’s to the vote. The situation is, sir, that constitution, and I quote: “Of primary im­ whether or not this stands or falls today portance to the individual citizen are the does not really matter. We have had a fundamental freedoms: equality before the good debate on it, we have discussed the Jaw; freedom of belief, conscience and welfare of the Isle of Man on several occa­ religion; ...” And then it goes on to sions, Mr. Speaker this morning gave us underline the importance, and this is a big all the reasons why we should not support ■laugh, “. . . freedom of trade and com­ it. I could give you reasons why we should merce; . . and it stresses the innate support it but I think, sir, there are far character of the Manx people which extols more .important things on the Agenda fair play. Now these are very fine principles coming up today and it is no use, we live and I am hoping today that every member to fight another day. I would say to the of this Court will abide by them. I hope Chairman of Executive Council, he who every member of this Court will abide by fights and runs away lives to fight another ■these wonderful principles which some day. Do not be disappointed, sir, when it people think we all believe in. (Interrup­ goes because you will come back, I am tion.) It is not mine, sir, oh no, not mine. sure, in the future with some other recom­ I am told it was copied from the Isle of mendation because many things might 'Man Bank. (Laughter.) This is what the happen in the next 10 or 20 years; the Clerk of Tynwald tells me, and we have membership of the Council, for instance, got a director today and he is the man who because we all know the situation of the is going to oppose it. All this, and other Bishop. We were talking of a democratic freedoms embodied in the United Nations society last year and many things but, of Charter of Human Rights I most emphatic­ course, that situation will have to be looked ally believe in, and I hope that this Court at just as closely as this particular one today will defend and do nothing to deny, here and I would say to hon. members, it of all the freedoms, the most important to does n o t really matter as long as the our ancestors from Viking days to date, majority show it, and as I said at the last and yet one of the most difficult to defend, debate, it is the majority of Tynwald here the right to equal treatment, and we all meeting today that matter, and if we think know this. What we do today will merely there -is going to be change and the confirm that what we Manx have struggled majority vote for it, that should be enough over the centuries for, we have fought for, to give an indication to the people of the and many Manx have died for, remains a Isle of Man that we are looking after their fundamental right which every child, born interests. Manx, inherits, and which will constantly, I hope, be considered in all the deliberations Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I was of Tynwald Court. On page 2 of the Com­ hoping today that this debate would be mission’s report, which most of the Court coolly and, more importantly, fairly carried here today do consider to be fairly care­ out, with all the people's rights, not the fully prepared — we do not agree with rights of one particular little group or one everything in it but they have given us all particular parish or Sheading, but all the the situations — they say: “We concluded, people’s rights to equal treatment being therefore, that we were required to produce absolutely foremost in our minds. Now, recommendations on the arrangements for Your Excellency, I would draw to members’ the election of members of the House of attention the programme issued to our Keys which tried to follow the principle of guests at this year’s Tynwald ceremony by equality . . .” Although difficult, I believe the Clerk of Tynwald’s office and, in that they did adhere to this principle al­ particular, to the final paragraph of the though, naturally, it does not satisfy every­

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1316 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

one’s personal needs, but It is not the per­ Times” , for daring to criticise them. Fortu­ sonal needs of members of Tynwald that nately, the United Kingdom Privy Council we are considering. It is not local politics still existed and they ordered his release which we are playing, although they will and they ordered the Keys, out of their own be played and have been played already. pockets, to pay him compensation, which It is not a game we are playing. It is, in he gave to charity, and this was much to fact, looking at the system of electing rep­ the delight of the Manx people, that they resentatives of the people of the Isle of had at least somebody who believed in Man with the people’s right to equal treat­ equality and freedom for all. And, of ment absolutely foremost in our minds. Let course, he could not, like myself, claim no member believe that democracy in its parliamentary privilege, which is a topical modern western context existed in the Isle of subject at the moment, but I think we Man before 1866, so you can forget what should all salute these two great Manx happened in the Sheadings and parishes papers today for leading public opinion on before that. The House of Keys in 1863 this vital issue. They did, in those days, were not fighting for reform but were lead public opinion. They did put both defending themselves and the oligarchy sides. They did come down with very care­ that they were against reform. They never fully considered editorial comment on the fought for reform, and we are still getting situation that faced the Manx people and some against it again today, more than they were confirming what the Manx people 100 years later. The leaders in that struggle knew, that the House of Keys were no more were not the self-elected House of Keys, representative of them, as a great man but following the 1832 Reform Bill of the said, than they were the people of Peru. United Kingdom Parliament, the “ Mona’s There is no doubt about it. What did they do Herald", they were the leaders, and how even after Lord Loch enforced the issue? the editors of that paper must, I hope, in They still kept the same system because heaven — they may be in Valhalla, I do not within the system, if they kept the agricul­ know — how they must be looking down tural worker out which they did in England, today and feeling . . . even later in the Isle of Man, he was not fit to vote, the outside constituencies, out Mr. Irving: I hope they did not see last of the towns, were still in the grip of week’s "Courier” . (Laughter.) people who had controlled the country since the Conqueror landed. It is also in­ Mr. MacDonald: Well, this is it. When teresting, Your Excellency, to look at the they saw the headline in last week’s list of members of Tynwald, persons and "Courier”, and the “Courier” swallowed local bodies, who submitted or gave written ■up the Mona’s Herald, and apparently evidence or oral evidence to the Commis­ they have decided that the principles on sion, and I am amazed that only 11 mem­ which that great reform party’s paper was bers of Tynwald were interested. Perhaps founded were not for them. It was the they were quite content, as they will prove “ Mona’s Herald” and the reform party, and today, with the status quo. They did not that paper in particular, which led the even bother to go on this, a very important struggle for popular election and equality, issue. You can check the list, the list was and it was the Lieutenant Governor, not published, only 11 members, whilst all the the Keys, the Lieutenant Governor, Lord town and all the village authorities did, and Loch, who forced the reform of the House only 11 out of the 17 Parish Commission­ of Keys after they very stupidly, and I hope ers did. However, I believe it was after they are not stupid today, after they had reading and hearing the views of this rep- very stupidly imprisoned the great electoral sentative selection of the community that reformer, James Brown of the “ Isle of Man that Commission did come to their con-

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1317 elusions. I do not think they were lying. Manx are that way. Your Excellency, as an Mr. Speaker said that the documents were elected member of the House of Keys secret. Well, they may have been, because formerly, and now as a member of the the people who gave the evidence were Council elected by the Keys, I never con­ told that it was given in confidence. sidered that I was a delegate from Peel. One member said recently that she had The Speaker: When? been told by her Commissioners. I will not Mr. MacDonald: So the Commission be told by Commissioners, as a member of naturally could not release them, but they the House of Keys or in the Council. I said there was nothing wrong with Mr. will not be told what I have got to say. I Speaker asking the individuals and he has am here to weigh things up and decide taken that up and he has asked them, fair myself, and the constituency I came from enough, but anybody here who gives evi­ expected me to do it. But I consider myself dence in confidence does not expect that to be not. just a representative of my own confidence to be broken by a Committee constituency, but also I was worried about without permission. This is fair. I do not what happened in Michael, in Santon, in think they should be secret, I do not think Pont St. Mary, or anywhere else, because they should be secret at all. But it is wrong I am a Manxman. This is my Island, this is to say that you will release information our Island. We are not here to look after obtained in confidence without the person the parish pump, to keep it primed, to suit who made it giving his permission, and I our own ends. We are here to look after think everybody here today will agree with all the people, the poorest to the richest, me there. The Commission also decided, the sick, the lame, the halt, everybody is and I quote: “We did not accept that the our concern, and in this particular debate present anomalies in electors per member today it is all the Manx people we are should be allowed to develop indefinitely. here to look after. Your Excellency, I know It was clear to us that the time had arrived the press will print how we vote today and when changes should be made. They do I hope that, in fact, they will give a bit involve a real imbalance and few of our more, well, one paper in particular, will witnesses were at ease with the discrep­ give a bit more slant to those who believe ancy of almost three to one between ex­ reform is on the way, is coming, and will tremes which exist at the moment.’’ Your come. Now, Your Excellency, Mr. Speaker Excellency, if fair play, which is in this when he was defending the status quo, and thing for what it is worth, if fair play is a I might say here that it is exactly what his Manx trait then Tynwald must today, I predecessors did in 1863, they defended believe, display fairness and accept that the status quo to the bitter end until they change should be made and not have to were threatened in the end, you either re­ come, as in 1866, by outside or local public form or be disbanded, utterly and com­ pressure. This could, of course, be gauged pletely forever. You can send one man to quite easily if Tynwald thinks that people London and that is the end of Tynwald, or are not fit to decide themselves by a reform. That is what they were to'd, and national -referendum, and as this affects that is when they knuckled down. They had the people, if that is the case, let us have no intention of giving the people the vote. one. Let the people vote, let the people They had it too good for too long. As for decide, let them walk with their feet to saying that this report ignores historical the polling booth and see what the answer and traditional boundaries, Onchan was a is because I do believe in the innate fair part of the Sheading of Garff. It was hived play and sense of justice of the Manx off in the 1700’s. We have had lots of people even if some people today here changes in boundaries. There is nothing think they are not that way. They are, the about boundaries of Sheadings and

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1318 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

parishes that came in with the laws of the have been said. I also believe, Your Ex­ Medes and Persians, nothing at ail. They cellency, that Mr. Speaker, and I have are all subject to change. Even Tynwald it­ known him a long time now, he is a master self is subject to change. How wonderful of divide and rule, he is a master of con­ that Tynwald can be subject to change, fusion — (laughter) — and there is no but certainly the parishes and certainly the doubt about it, Your Excellency, the more Sheadings are subject to change. Let us committees, the more confusion, the less not also believe that the Sheading system everybody will be able to do and the more was designed to give the people repre­ he will be able to do, and this often sentation. It was a military imposition to achieves a lot, there is no doubt about provide men for the war galleys. Nobody it. But I hope it is achieving nothing today said, "You can vote if you go on a war because I think you will all sit down care­ galley” . (Laughter.) Voting did not come fully and vote. Are we going to give the into it. They just carved the Island up and people equal justice and equal say, a said, so many ships, so many men, you proper organisation, in this modern age? produce them, or else I It was a nice idea. It will change again. And also, if we are talking history, we must also realise this. Mr. Anderson: Twenty-four for the whole Island.

Mr. Nivison: We are not really. Mr. MacDonald: That is nonsense, and you know it. It will change again, and no Mr. MacDonald: Well I am. (Laughter.) doubt about it. Your Excellency, the reso­ As it has been quoted, I will. Sheadings lution I originally brought forward was put were in existence, not with the present to the Court because I am quite convinced boundaries, not with the Norse period that the present organisation is not right. boundaries, long before the Norsemen It is completely and utterly wrong when came here but they did not call them you look, and I am not going to read them, Sheadings because there was no military but if members today will look at the elec­ imposition. The Celtic organisers of the toral statistics, which I presume they have Island already had divided the Island into all got, you know, we have still got property areas. This is well known. (Interruption.) votes in the town, it is what I used to say, I have read about it. (Laughter.) I can still turnips can vote, in this case houses can read. To say that it ignores traditional vote. All this is representation of people, boundaries, well it does because it goes not representation of fields, not representa­ round houses. In the case of Ramsey, on tion of wealth, not representation of boun­ one side of the road, enjoying the lights on daries, it is people we are talking about, the other side of the road, you are in a and if any man here today, in all honesty different parish or a different area. These to himself or herself and to the people of things can be done. These things can be the Isle of Man, can deny the equality that altered. There is nothing to stop them the Commission, and certainly I am seek­ being altered if fairness is what we are ing, well then, I feel we will go down in seeking. I hope, Your Excellency, today history as yet another House of Keys that that the “ Courier” — I am sorry if I keep would not accept reform when reform was bashing the "Courier” — but I was horri­ needed. I hope we will not. I hope mem­ fied to see what they said, when I realised bers today will not vote because they come that this was the great reform paper in from a certain area and it might affect me its heyday, and I hope they will act as in the next Election. I might lose votes, it my mouthpiece today — (laughter) — might upset the balance of power. I was and reply with the same heading — even told by one of our colleagues that Bunkum — on some of the things which certain of our other colleagues sitting in

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1319 a certain place said, “ If we have any change ant thing, before the polling booth, as at all it will let that Labour Party in.” Now equal before the law. this is a terrible indictment. If ever gerry­ mandering was considered, this is it. Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I support the resolution in front of this hon. Court The Speaker: Name. and I do so, of course, as a second line because, for reasons beyoind my control, Mr. MacDonald: Name who? I was not here during the last debate, I was away on Government business, and The Speaker: The person who said it. l have spelt out and will always spell out that I believe that we should have 24 Mr. MacDonald: Three people said it. Siingle-seat constituencies, full stop — 24 single-seat constituencies giving that much The Speaker: Who were they? equality to everybody to vote for the per­ son they desire on the same principle all ■Mr. MacDonald: I will keep my confi­ round the Island and forgetting about any dence, sir. (Laughter.) I do not usually other basic interests. Now, as a second but I will. (Laughter.) I will wait until just choice, and I am saying as a second before the next Election, the week before. choice because this has been presented by Executive Council and I assume that Mr. Creer: Are you Labour? (Laughter.) it has got sufficient support at least to make a start iin the right direction, if we Mr. MacDonald: Sir, I am Manx. I am can get down to the principle, even if it not Labour, no. I am Manx. I see faults in came at a later stage to eight three-seat the Party system but I also see goodness constituencies, I would take that as the im the Party system, but I would not op­ third choice rather than maintain the sys­ pose the right of anybody to talk with tem of giving one person two votes and another body, to decide they will have a another person three votes. This is where common policy. This goes on anyway. You I think, basically, it is wrong. Of course know, we have a Tory Party in the House the principles in this report are excellent. of Keys and in Tynwald. It does not call I obviously agree with the basic principle itself that but it exists, and make no of the single transferable vote, I am sure mistake about it. So what we are seeking every member of this Court agrees with today is a change in the system that can that principle, but just getting down to give, if I can just quote two of the constitu­ the basic facts that we are looking at encies, well, I will not give the exact today, we can talk about boundaries, we figures, but if you take North Douglas with can talk about our own little particular over 4,000 voters and you can take another interests, and the question of what your place with 1,300, and you can say this is constituents say. I have no doubt in my equality in the Isle of Man. I hope today mind, hon. members. I stood on so many the members will not go back on what Election platforms and I am not trying to they decided last time. I hope the members pull the wool over anybody’s eyes. I did today who last time voted against democ­ not wait for an Election, I had a meeting racy, against equality, will rethink that one every year reporting to my constituents. and vote on the side of all the people, not One of the questions which was always their own boundary, not their own con­ raised even before I became a member of stituency. I hope, Your Excellency, that this hon. Court, even when I was on plat­ justice will be done today and that the forms 25 years ago for Council elections Manx people in the whole Island will be and, incidentally, the particular Ward that treated before the box, which is the import­ I represented encompassed the same boun­

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1320 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

daries as North Douglas and always has You will now be able to vote for one per­ done, and always this question was asked son and everybody else in the Island will — what would you do about this question have the privilege, so that in Rushen they of one vote up here and three votes some­ will not be putting three crosses on a where else? Particularly Middle always paper and in North Douglas, as the hon. came under the stick, the constituency of member has said, the 3,000 voters being Middle, and we recently have had a letter able to put one cross on the paper. That from the Onchan Commissioners. The is their alternative, take it or leave it. It members for Middle might, incidentally, re­ is a simple, straightforward issue as far as mind the Onchan Commissioners that I I am concerned. I always represented am now an exalted member of the Legis­ people. All right, I have been placed up lative Council because I had a letter from here by you good folk, you sent me up them asking W. A. Moore, M.H.K., to op­ here, but as far as I was concerned, you pose this particular resolution. knew my principles before you sent me up here. I have always spelt out, one seat, Mr. Irving: Asking for amalgamation with one person, 24 votes, 24 different con­ Douglas? stituencies. That is what I want. I cannot always achieve what I want. I am prepared to compromise and the only compromise Mr. Moore: No, they were not asking for that is in front of me at present is 12 two- that, they were telling us to keep clear of member constituencies. I am voting for it. this particular thing. The reasons interest me, you see, the reason which the Onchan Commissioners were concerned with on Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, first of all, I would like to say that I object quite behalf of their members was that some part of Onchan was going to be absorbed strongly to some of the remarks made by into Baldrine and included in with Baldrine the hon. member for Council, Mr. Mac­ and people outside the distinguished com­ Donald. He tried to imply that those who oppose this resolution are unfair and un­ pany of Onchan. On the other hand, of democratic. course, the Middle constituents, and Onchan particularly, have always been quite happy to rope in Braddan, Union Mills, Mr. Irving: He was quite right. Kewaigue, Santon, everywhere else, and (Laughter.) yet the argument that they put forward to us — and I assume every member had a Mr. Callin: He also referred, Your Excel­ letter from the Onchan Commissioners — lency, to bunkum. Now he boasted he is a the argument that they put forward to us Manxman, so am I, and if I say to him was that it is terrible, we are now being that his was a lot of “blather" he will absorbed by Baldrine. This was the other understand what I mean, and if I could end of the stick coming home to them but, just, before I go on, come to the defence you know, I do"not want to get tied up with of Onchan. The last speaker took some de­ the bits and pieces. We could talk in terms light in criticising the opinions of the On­ of the situation in Rushen, we could talk chan Commissioners, and I would say they about the terms in Michael which has been are quite right to object to the splitting up mentioned, versus my own constituency. of Onchan, and as for saying that Onchan That is not the argument at all. What we set grabs Braddan, grabs Union Mills, grabs out to do, and the hon. member for Council Santon, it is not true. I can confirm, as I who put the resolution originally, was for have done on the three previous debates us to be able to go back to the people we on this subject, that one thing that I can represent and say there is at least a move do is to stand here and say that I am towards some sort of equal representation. speaking for the people that I represent

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1321

and it is not just a personal opinion at all constituencies. Only this morning the hon. because only last night, if we want to talk move-r referred to members of single-seat about Braddan, I received a letter, and I constituencies as second-class citizens. If was not going to read it but in view of he feels that, then let us turn the single­ that remark I will. “Dear Mr. Callin, my seat constituencies into multi-seats. (Inter­ Commissioners met on Friday evening and ruption.) If that is what they want I will discussed, amongst other things, the ques­ support it. I will support them if they will tion of electoral boundary changes. I am support what we want. Then they go on instructed to convey to you their absolute to say that they hope we will see fit to opposition to any change proposed by this accept recommendation 2 of paragraph 45 Parliament, as they feel the matter has not on page 24 of the Commission’s report — been fully discussed by a wide enough "The adoption of a general system of muliti- section of the population, that such an im­ member constituencies with, for the most portant change should be an issue at a part, three members to a constituency." General Election, and on a more domestic This, Your Excellency, is what the people note, the favoured schemes at present out­ of Middle have at present and this is what lined would appear to be highly detrimental they want to retain. The Isle of Man has to the voters of North Braddan. My Com­ done very well under the present system missioners have the utmost confidence that and I would say, let us leave well alone. you will oppose the changes in Tynwald this week on their behalf, and indeed on IVIr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I will be behalf of the people of Middle.” Now very brief because I believe every speech Middle is united, Middle is not split at all. under Standing Order 70 should be brief, The report of the Commission on the Rep­ but something has happened in the interim resentation of the People Act is dated as which I am sure this Court is well aware recently as 26th March, and this is the of, and that is the crude but well orches­ third time that the subject has been trated propaganda campaign mounted by debated in this hon. Court since that date, the press and based, I would say, Your so there is really little that I can add today Excellency, on a completely wrong pre­ except to reiterate my total opposition to mise, a premise which has been also any change along the lines proposed. I accepted by the Onchan Village Commis­ would like at this stage to compliment Mr. sioners, and it is this. In each of these Speaker on his speech today because I Appendices — and they are Appendices, think it has been very relevant, perhaps they are not recommendations — it says not like the hon. member for Peel thought. quite categorically: "The constituency I do not altogether appreciate the inter­ names that we have employed are for ference of either Miss Lakeman or Mr. descriptive purposes only and are not sug­ James Knight, of the London based Elec­ gested as being definitive.” What will be toral Reform Society. However, I feel that definitive, what will be determined, as I they are right in what they have said and hope this resolution when it is passed will I will quote: “We would like to repeat lead to, is an amending Bill to the Repre­ that a single transferable vote in multi­ sentation of the People Act, and that is member constituencies makes certain that where we will sort out whether Howstrake the candidates who are elected do repre­ division shall be in Garff or whether the sent the opinions and preferences of the Vicar of Onchan is going to be separated whole body of voters in the proportions in from his flock, because that is what is hap­ which those opinions are held.” I cannot pening, the issue is being reduced to trivi­ see, Your Excellency, how anyone could alities. Now, I have a great respect for the argue against this and it certainly confirms oratory of the hon. Mr. Speaker. I heard what I have always thought of single-seat him this morning talk about the divisive

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1322 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

effect of this motion; that it does not con­ Executive Council could make. But one thing form to sociial patterns, that it ignores the Executive Council did not do at any boundaries and, finally, the appeal to his­ stage was to say that it should recom­ tory. Where have we heard that or read of mend nothing, or that it should recom­ that long before this? 1866, the arguments mend the status quo. In spite of all the that were put forward by the oligarchy, by abuse and discontent over the times with the self-elected House of Keys. We are decisions of Executive Council, at least I constantly reminded by the hon. Mr. think it could be said here and now that Speaker of the right of our self-determina­ they did not run away from making a re­ tion of home rule, and I agree with him. We commendation and they certainly did not must have home rule but it cannot be go along with the system of doing nothing. achieved unless internally we have the As far as the Commission is concerned, proper method of election to the House. I think they, also, to some extent, need Your Excellency, my hon. colleague said some defence because they have been this is not of great importance; to me, it is. subjected to suggestions that they are try­ We are in the fourth year of this House of ing to impose an alien system upon this Keys. Are we going to be progressive? Island. They were asked to see if they could Are we going to go down in history as pro­ get a more equitable system and I think in gressive or retrogressive? Because it is recommending such a system they clearly not a question of just leaving things as stated in their report that they realised that they are. One of the remarks made in the it did not and could not fall into the tradi­ report, to me, is very significant. It is on tional areas of historical importance. In this question of leave everything as it is. making that recommendation they realised “But the anomalies” they say, “are con­ that they would offend against historic feel­ siderable and will grow greater. They ings. So I think it is rather unfair to say already cause disquiet in some quarters. that this is an attempt to force something Our terms of reference required us to upon the Island. They have suggested seek equality.” And what is wrong with alternatives and have left the namings of equality in voting? "We do not recom­ those areas to this Court or to legislation mend the continuance of things as they in the future. It just happens that Garff, or are.” I hope that this hon. Court will not a corner of possible Garff, has suddenly recommend the continuance of things as become the football in the middle, and why they are. should this be when really we were talk­ ing about areas out in the rural North and Members: Hear, hear. areas iin the towns where the representa­ Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I have not tion was disproportionate. Here we have spoken in any of the previous debates on an argument which centres purely this subject and, for that matter, was one this morning on about 1,400 people living of the ones who did not enter the list of in a new housing area of Onchan. If we evidence. But several things have been are going back through history, every time said just recently which I think one must any boundaries have changed they have put straight. First of all, the attitude of the always changed in Middle because Middle Executive Council, and I make no bones is the area where the sway of population here and now to say that I am supporting, balance has always gone wrong and this, as a member of the Executive Council, I believe, from memory, even goes back the recommendation put forward in this as far as the 1400’s which was quoted by resolution, that although it has been de­ the hon. Mr. Speaker when, in fact, Middle scribed perhaps as a negative, a by-the- was redistributed even as far back as that way resolution, in fact, it does represent between the areas occupied by the Deem­ the only agreed recommendation that the sters of the North and the South, to equal

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1323 their areas up. Middle, unfortunately, has other members of Council, I accept that always added or subtracted and it is true, this is the only practical way of getting of course, that the parish at one time was equal representation throughout the Island. in Garff anyway. But one challenges the Please do not start running away now. We view that the Commission areas should have an Executive Council which is trying stay static. We accept that the Onchan to be executive for a change, and let us Commissioners have circulated this Court have some support for it. with the view that representation should be held within their own administrative Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I shudder area, and there is perhaps quite an argu­ at the debate this morning. Last time I en­ ment for doing that, for recommending deavoured to be broadminded and as a the status quo. We have the Laxey Village stateswoman express my views. Commissioners saying — if it is correctly reported in the newspapers — that, in A member: A statesperson. fact, they would not like to see part of Middle included because it would weight Mr. Lowey: As agreed by the Commis­ the area too far away from Laxey. Now, sioners. (Laughter.) they have not asked me to do anything, and I suspect that the Village Commis­ Mrs. Quayle: I thought a lot of it was sioners are worried, once we re-distribute unfair to the rest of the Island and I said, areas, that local authority areas will start leave things, as they are, and this morn­ being redistributed as well. But this is not ing I am going to be entirely parochial be­ about local authority areas, this is about cause of the drastic situation that Castle­ equal distribution throughout the Island. If town feels itself to be in. My whole we are dealing with who writes or who gets concern is that you are endeavouring to on to members, I had an interesting con­ make an artificial marriage, an arranged versation with a person from the Lakeside marriage, between what was your ancient area of Middle who asked and really capital of Castletown, which is already in a queried whether the Onchan Village Com­ very, very difficult situation, you are trying missioners and their members were correct to make an artificial marriage with Arbory in assuming that they should all support and a bit of Rushen. Neither Rushen nor the status quo; that, in fact, were the Com­ Arbory have any geographical or historical missioners just looking after their own inte­ or economical links with us. rests in ultimately seeing that their own members became subsequently members Mr. Delaney: They are all Chinese down of the Keys? One woman even questioned there, are they? (Laughter.) whether her representation might be a little better if she was represented by the Mrs. Quayle: I think ,it would be fair existing members. (Laughter.) So really, to say that these people, by and large, go I think we must stop this petty squabbling down to shop in Port Erin or Port St. Mary, over a tiny area. And I might add that a and I do not see those people in our town. considerable number of the residents of If you would look at your map that you Lakeside came from Laxey and Garff any­ have in your Appendix, it would appear to way, and have a relationship to their exist­ you that Malew is joined to Derbyhaven ing members. So I plead with you to adopt and Langness but, of course, this is not the resolution as it is printed. It is a move so. Because of the Airport you cannot get forward. It is not the ideal. The ideal, I to Derbyhaven or Langness without coming still think, was in the hon. member of through Castletown. And again, there is a Council’s original view that we should have funny little bit which has just got “Mai” one member for one constituency, but like on it, which in actual fact is Scarlett, and

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1324 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 again you cannot get to that area without did not recommend Castletown and Arbory coming through Castletown. So I am going going together. This is the second best to say to you, quite honestly, that Castle­ alternative. town is a jewel in the clasp of Malew. Malew has always had connections with us. Mr. Lowey: You will have a chance to We have joint societies and ventures with vote. Malew, some of them quite modern, for in­ stance, our Sandfield elderly persons’ Mrs. Quayle: I am well aware, and I said complex is Malew and Castletown. Our leave it last tim e because, as Mr. Mac­ Royal British Legion, both the men and Donald has said, I was the person who the ladies' section, Malew and Castletown. asked my Commissioners, I felt they were Our over-sixties club, Malew and Castle­ in touch with the people. I have been town. And the largest proportion of our round myself since and they are horrified, people in Castletown work in Malew in the they had thought they were going in with industries, particularly, of course, in the Malew, and they said, if things cannot be Ronaldsway Aircraft Company, the Shoe left then let us go in with Malew, and well Company, and other industries which have and good. But I certainly shall be voting been built up, and, of course, in the Air­ against this. port. It might be interesting to know — and I believe we are the only authority that Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, we have does it — we take in some of Malew’s heard a lot of talk about ancient history sewerage. (Laughter.) It may mean noth­ this morning but I think it is time we ing to you, but we bury in Malew, we have reminded the House of Keys that they have no burial ground of our own. no ancient history, they are only, as an elected body, mere youngsters, 114 years Mr. Delaney: Only the dead ones, I hope. old. I admit that might make them antiques, (Laughter.) the fact that they are over 100, but we want to remember that it is Tynwald that Mrs. Quayle: Many of my constituents in is the ancient body and not the elected Castletown are regular worshippers in House of Keys. Now, the hon. member for Malew. It has always been our Parish Council, Mr. MacDonald, has debunked the Church, we go to all the festivals. And if claims about the ancient boundaries, they you have any legal document — I was inte­ have been altered out of all recognition, rested to look at the conveyance I have and you have already just heard the hon. here — it puts on the top of it “Castle­ member for Castletown admitting that town in the Parish of Malew”. So I am Castletown is only a part of the parish of saying to you that you are trying to break Malew. And when she talks about having our historical and our geographical and our to go through Castletown to get to Derby­ economic ties which we already have haven or to Scarlett, it is only walking with Malew. I think where we have gone through the parish, there is no real division, wrong, or where this report has gone because we must remember that the town wrong, or possibly the terms of reference boundaries are only modern boundaries that we gave them, is that you cannot and have no tie-up with ancient heritage. divorce the political side from the Now I, regrettably, was absent from this economic side. I would say to you, what hon. Court when this matter was previously can Arbory and a bit of Rushen do for debated, but I have read carefully the us economically? They cannot, our verbatim of the debate and, as usual, there thoughts are all in Malew and they belong have been many differing opinions. Some there. (Interruptions.) members were prepared to face up to the situation that the present electoral system Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, the report is unfair but others wanted no change

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1325

because the present unfair system favours resolution that is put before us today. It them as individuals. When we first consi­ will allow legislation to come before the dered the Committee’s report I made it clear Branches, because we have got to remem­ that I thought the report was an excellent ber that this resolution today achieves one and that I supported the Committee’s nothing except getting legislation before main recommendation for three and two- the Branches and then if it is considered seat constituencies, and I still believe that necessary to alter the resolution in any that was the correct way to tackle this way, that is the time to do it. It might matter. But I note that this was put to the come out at the end of the day that you Court at the last sitting and decisively finish up with your 24 one-seat constitu­ defeated. Now, I took special note of the encies, it might finish up with the three number of members who claimed that we and two-seat constituencies which I had no mandate for this particular move believe is the right answer, but at least it and we should defer consideration until will start some progress and will get rid after the next Election. Others called for a of this completely unfair system at the referendum, others wanted the matter to go moment. to a Committee. Now, if you will remember, I moved that the original report should Members: Hear, hear. go to a Committee, but that was defeated. Some of those who opposed then would Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, at the start like it to go to a Committee now, but their of the debate we heard allegations that reasons are different from mine, theirs are certain members had changed sides and delaying tactics. As has been mentioned that the vote was a foregone conclusion, by the hon. mover of the resolution, we and yet I have not heard anyone yet who have not got a mandate for most things we has risen to their feet saying they have deal with in this Court. I can recollect the changed sides. Well, I am about to put a situation at my last Election to the House stop to that because, as the hon. mover of Keys. I was advocating most strongly of the resolution will be aware, at the end the take-over by the Island of the postal of the debate on this resolution last month, services. I found very few constituents to use an unparliamentary term, I collared who agreed with me, but very many who him on the floor of the Court after the vote were opposed to my views and told me so and told him then that I would not be verbally and by letter. The late Mr. Albert supporting a combined vote. It may appear Corkish also advocated the take-over of strange at first sight. It should not be the Post Office and, without any doubt, strange if you remember what I said in the lost his seat as a result. I could not claim debate then. I said, I am still convinced to have a mandate for the Post Office that one-seat constituencies are the fairest take-over, in fact, just the opposite, but I means of representation for people on the still persisted in my beliefs and you all Isle of Man. I still adhere to that view. know the results. We have proved con­ After having said that, I did say that I clusively that the electorate’s opinion is not thought the Commission had made a always to be relied on. Once elected we memorable attempt at being fair and meet­ have to make our own decisions without ing all the local requirements and, there­ running back and forward to the electorate fore, I was prepared to accept the with referenda or asking for mandates for Commission’s findings in full. It may pay this, that, and the other. I believe the us a little to dwell on the reasons why we present electoral system is unfair and I set up an independent Commission as do not need a mandate from anyone to opposed to a Select Committee, and I tell me that. Although the present reso­ believe it was an effort to divorce this lution is not my ideal solution it is a step Court and all the political views that are in the right direction and I support the contained therein from this very delicate

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1326 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

flower of trying to get the right balance. dantly clear — that I am on the side of Now, the Commission, as I said, I believe change is because it is an inequality in has come up with a very fair and balanced the Isle of Man that we are administering view, and it surprises me therefore to see at the moment. I do prescribe to the fact this Court accept after two attempts to that we represent people and not areas. take on board two-thirds of the recom­ I think that everybody has already made mendations of the Commission, that is, their mind up how they are voting one way the way in which to vote, the STV, and or the other, and therefore I do not think also to review the parliamentary boun­ any amount of rhetoric of mine would daries after 15 years. change or sway one single vote. Therefore, I am just going to formally move an Mr. Irving: Within 15 years. amendment which I have submitted to the Clerk in writing and give the opportunity Mr. Lowey: Within 15 years, all right. at this late stage for the Court to adopt Two of the three have been accepted. But what I view is the right answer. the kernel of the nut, that is, the delicate thing, I mean, a Select Committee of this Mr. Delaney: I beg to second. Court could have dealt with those, but I discover Executive Council then rejects the Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, main recommendation and takes on board briefly, because we are just going to have a proposal that is, to my view, second best. time to vote, I think, before lunch. I was Therefore, I do believe that I am com­ rather intrigued, sir, to see the hon. mover pletely consistent in my belief that we can of thiis resolution a very worried man when get a fair measure of support throughout he stood up to introduce it; in fact, he tried the Isle of Man for this report if it is taken to use the big stick technique. He said, in total, and therefore I am going to move hon. members, if you do not support this an amendment to give this Court another today you must expect boundary changes chance to accept the Commission’s third in the very near future. That was the big and main proposal, that we accept their stick to try to frighten everyone, and hon. recommendation for two and three-seat members will not be frightened. Now, what constituencies as a positive way forward. counts to the members of this Court is, I beg to move-:— as the Speaker said last month and again today, do the public want change? Never For (a) substitute:— mind your Commissioners, there has been a “That Tynwald approve the adop­ lot of talk about Commissioners, but I talk tion of a system of two and three about the public at large, and I have and do travel round the Island quite a bit member constituencies as set out in Appendix J of the Report of and I find that there is no demand what­ soever for change. There is no heart in this the Commission on the Represen­ at all. People w ill say, well, the best thing tation of the People Acts dated you lot can do there is get on with govern­ 26th March 1980.” ing, not messing about with boundaries of I am not going to reiterate all the points any sort. And mention of boundaries just in the Commission's report that I think brings me to a remark of the hon. member have been misrepresented this morning. I for Rushen. There would be minor changes, know attempts have been made to dis­ he said, if this were adopted. Let us con­ credit some of the sayings of the Com­ sider the position of Ayre if this is adopted. mission. I believe we are doing that Com­ If this is accepted today, Ayre would stretch mission a discourtesy by so doing, and I from Glen Mooar, the other side of want that to go on public record. The main Michael, to the Point of Ayre, as far as reason — and I want to make it abun­ the eye could see almost. (Interruptions.)

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1327

Petrol allowance or no petrol allowance, mandate. It will be raised, in fact I will you have got to be realistic, that in a total make sure it will be raised if I am still here! area of 223 square miles — as quoted in (Laughter and interruptions.) Anyway, I the report — two members in Ayre would ask members to vote against this here to­ be going to service 77 square miles, over day, retain the status quo and let a year’s one-third, in fact, 35£ per cent, of the area time take care of it. would be serviced by two members. Mr. Swales: Your Excellency, I will be Mr. MacDonald: How many people? very brief because it is getting late. But, you know, the hon. member for Ayre who Mr. J. N. Radcliife: Your Excellency, it has just sat down, he says that his con­ would be impossible to do the job pro­ stituents in a year's time, or next week, perly, and I am quite sure the electorate will vote to retain the status quo; of course In an area of that size could not and they will. So that really there is not much would not get the service that they have point in this. I think that the major issue the right to expect and receive. Members in front of this Court is for it to devise talk now about their workload, but just an electoral system that provides for a imagine scorching from the Point of Ayre reasonable degree of equality of a man out to the other side of Kirk Michael and or woman’s vote. attempting to look after constituents’ prob­ lems, and spending half the time, anyway, A member: Hear, hear. on the road. Sheer size of the constituency would make it, as I say, physically impos­ Mr. Swales: I believe also when I read sible to do the job properly. It would be the very excellent report of the Commis­ defeating the grand objective which every­ sion that the very obvious system would be one is talking about, a fair and effective to agree to 24 single-member constituen­ representation and equal treatment. The cies. It has all the advantages and very people would not get equal treatment, it few of the disadvantages. We know this, it would toe “ hello and goodbye” , there would has been rejected. I hope sometime it will be no chance to talk to people at all. come ¡because it must come, 24 single (Laughter.) He would be considering how members, which not only gives the equality quickly he could get on to the next port of call. I would ask, Your Excellency, how of the vote to the electorate, but two-thirds of the areas would be less than one square many members have actually consulted mile in extent. The advantages would ac­ their electorate, never mind the Commis­ crue to this, not only in respect of the sioners again, the electorate, over this candidate but to the people he purports matter? Few, if any, have, and, as I said, to represent. However, I am supporting the there is no heat anyway at the moment. So I would ask members to vote against it resolution merely because it is second solidly here today, retain the status quo, best, and I am still hoping that it will evolve in effect, and let the public have their say from here. I am supporting it on one in just over a year’s time. ground in that it at least reduces the anomaly at the present moment of the A member: They will! value of the vote. If we leave things as they are there is a deviation, and I quote Mr. J. N. Radcllffe: They will, and they the report, if one takes the whole circle, will return those whose declared policy is the maximum deviation at present is 104 probably to retain still and for ever the per cent. We can hardly support that or status quo, they will return those people continue to support it, which is North Dou­ as members and that will be the end of glas, plus 61 per cent., Ayre, minus 43 per this matter, I reckon, after November of cent. If we take another example, Peel at 1981. There’ will be a House with a solid plus 33 per cent., its next door neighbour,

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. T1328 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Glenfaba, minus 35 per cent. I would find evening. Out in the sticks, in the hinter­ it exceedingly difficult to support that kind land, and knowing rural hospitality, my of thing. But if we do take the 12 two- productivity is abysmally low! (Laughter.) member constituencies, it does at least re­ If I get in three calls in an afternoon I duce the deviation from 104 per cent, to have done well because they do not want 25 per cent., which is three-quarters of the "hello and goodbye" which the more the way, and this would mean that Ramsey — dare I say it — slightly unsociable at one end would be plus 10 per cent, characters who have the misfortune to live and South Central at minus 15 per cent, in town may offer. In the country they want at the other end. As I say, I am prepared you to come in and talk and find out what to support the resolution because it does it is all about. These things are relevant. at least attempt to improve upon the May I say we are representing people, not equality of value of the person's vote, but digits on population statistics. (Interrup­ I would still hope that this Court would tion.) I would say that there is a vast really do the proper thing and turn its at­ difference in the technique, in the practical­ tention to 24 single-member constituencies, ity, of where we represent— 77 square miles and all their difficulties would disappear. or one square mile. Reference was made earlier on to representation of Michael and Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, its alleged second-class citizens. If the speaking to the main resolution, I am on hon. member had been present at certain record in this Court, I think it is well of the public meetings held in that Shead­ known, that I favour single-seat constituen­ ing he would have been under no illusion cies, and it is a system not without as to which class the people of Michael precedent. I favour it because it gives were in. I would ask hon. members, would individual responsibility. Michael be better represented if, instead of having one member, it shared two with A member: Hear, hear. Ayre? I cannot see it. Make no mistake, hon. members, I welcome change. I have Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: And I think, sir, it helped to introduce one or two very minor was relevant that although this subject has changes in this hon. Court. now had a good and, on the whole, fair press, I have not detected any public Mr. Irving: By public demand, no doubt. demand for this change. In looking at this problem I suggest we must look at the Mr. J. J. Radcliffe: Possibly, you are Island as a whole, and if you do that you entitled to your opinion, sir. But I would come to the first item, the North, the first say that change and improvement are not new proposed constituency with 77 square necessarily synonymous, and if this is miles approximately. I would suggest, hon. regarded as equality l would suggest that members, if you look at that you need go it is more like electoral imbecility. If this is no further in making up your mind how the best solution that Executive Council you are going to vote. Are you going to in its wisdom can put before this Court, support a system whereby one-third of the I think they both want throwing out, Island is going to be represented by one- Council and the resolution. I shall oppose. twelfth of the membership of the House of Keys? I know hon. members have said Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I rise to that people are not turnips. Agreed, but support the amendment. I have stated my you have got to be practical. The persons reasons why on previous occasions and who are elected, whether it is us or our do not wish to reiterate them. I would say, successors, have got to service those though, that I agree wholeheartedly with people, and geographical distance does the sentiments expressed in paragraph come into it. It is all right for those in the 41 of the Commission’s report where they towns who can do a whole street in an say, “ In any multi-member constituency

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Motion Amended and Appendix J Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1329 each elector has more than one member Mr. Walker: And service them. It is not of the House of Keys to appeal to; and the impossible. I certainly support the amend­ preferential system of voting guarantees ment, I support the Commission's pro­ representation to any significant minority.” posals, and if that fails I will support the It is important that minorities are recog­ change to two-member seats because a nised and represented and in single-seat change is needed. constituencies this is not always the case. In fact in the past, but I do hope that in The Governor: Hon. members, I propose the future it will not be the case again, that the Court should adjourn until the majority of the elecorate in the single­ 2.30 p.m., but before we do, I might just seat constituencies have not voted for the outline the programme as I see it for con­ elected member and so it could be said ducting the business of this session. We that the majority . . . will obviously adjourn this evening as usual and thereafter I propose that the A member: Where? Court should meet at 10 a.m. tomorrow and sit until 1.30 p.m. if that suits members, Mr. Walker: In a single-seat constituency because there is the garden party in the with many individuals standing, the person afternoon and then, if needs be, meet elected has not always had the majority. again at 10 a.m. on Friday, depending on (Interruptions.) I believe that the reason how the business goes. the recommendation for the two and three- member constituencies of the Commission was not accepted by the majority of this COMMISSION ON THE Court was because of the very large con­ REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE stituencies formed in the north of the ACTS — DEBATE CONCLUDED. Island, but I would remind members that we represent a large constituency in the Mr. Nivlson: Your Excellency, during the south. The recommended northern con­ last Tynwald when we voted as separate stituency of the Commission would have bodies, it did appear as if the one Cham-: an electorate of 6,390 people. We have an ber was in the majority, and I will spell it electorate of 6,910, 600 more. The proposed out — the House of Keys in favour of the western constituency, 5,500. In Rushen at resolution — but it did appear as if the the last Election we had 1,400 persons Council were opposed and both Branches more and a similar amount more than the not being in line, that is what we are here number of constituents in the proposed today for and I want to say that I have eastern block. It is possible to canvass a not changed my attitude towards this since large constituency. In Rushen we had an the last Tynwald. I want to say that right at 87 per cent, poll at the last Election and I the outset. That was that I favoured the think that that proves that given a wide single-seat constituencies but, that having range of candidates, in tune to a wide been defeated, I could not see any benefit range of people, we can get the people derived from this new proposal of two- to the polling booth and that is what is seat constituencies which apeared to me important, to get them to the polling booth to be somewhat of a "hotch-potch” . It did and put the crosses on the papers. This not seem to provide the solution. But hav­ proposed constituency in the north is not ing said that, I do not think that all is well. too large. I believe very well that the can­ I do not think by any means that all is didates could easily canvass them. well and that we should refuse to pass anything and then sit back and say, in Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: We are not perpetuity we are going to leave things as worried about canvassing them, it is ser­ they are. I do recall this Sheading of vicing them. Middle. Incidentally, the report does say,

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. T1330 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 the anomalies are considerable — these hope that Executive Council will not let are the people who have considered it — the matter rest. Incidentally, we are work­ the anomalies are considerable and will ing for the future. Even if this two-member grow greater. Now this is, without question, constituency thing is passed this is what I and I would say to my hon. friends, the would fear, if this passed the whole thing members who represent the constituency would be left for years then and they I used to represent, of Middle, in no place would say, "Well, we have only just in the Isle of Man will the anomalies grow dealt with that matter.” This is not the greater than they will in Middle Sheading, correct way, in my view, to deal with it. in so far that they have something in I think there could be quite a lot of diffi­ excess of 6,000 electors there at the culty. In my time in the Legislature, I was moment and it is growing greater than reminding some of my colleagues in the ever and the question of some of the Council, the whole of Willaston was in smaller areas in that constituency, the Middle. The first time I stood for the South Braddans and the Santons, do not House of Keys, the whole of Willaston was appear, and if the people all knew, do not in Middle. Incidentally, there were about appear to be getting the same kind of deal six houses in Willaston at that time. as, say, the people of my own village, Onchan, are getting. So I must say that all Mr. Moore: Thirteen houses. is not well in this respect but I do not agree with the two-seat constituency for Mr. Nlvison: There were thirteen were the very reason that it does seem to be there, I was saying there were only six — breaking down a lot of the natural barriers just a small part. Incidentally, the whole of and creating new barriers, and I repeat the Garden City, as we know it, Port-e- what I said at the last debate, that has Chee Avenue and Highcroft Avenue and been taken up by the local authority and all of these were in. I remember, too, quite taken up by newspapers. The constitu­ well, before I decided to stand that the ency, the eastern one, would be Maughold, whole of Pulrose was in Middle Sheading. Laxey, Lonan and Howstrake. This does So we really must not shut our eyes to the seem to be a peculiar type of constituency fact that some kind of alteration should and I think something better than that occur in order to be fair to the voters and should emerge from this. Now I want to I would say that my sympathy lies not with correct one suggestion that has been put the powerful places but with the small forward and that was put forward by my parts of our constituencies, the likes of hon. friend and colleague, Mr. Kneale, the Santon area and South Braddan, who member of the Council, who did seem to may feel that at the moment they are not suggest that even if we were to vote for getting the deal that they should do like this, that what really counts, and I think the more powerful places. So I would a lot of members feel this way, is the Bill hope that voting against this resolution when the Bill comes before the Legislature, today, and this is the message I want to (interruptions.) Yes, but we will be give, Your Excellency, if it is heeded at all, reminded, Your Excellency, that the resolu­ I want to say voting against this does not tion did state in no uncertain terms that mean that we are not going to do anything Tynwald approves the adoption of a system at all in the future. (Interruptions.) You of two-member constituencies — that is may think it does but it is up to any mem­ what the resolution says — and what mem­ ber of this Court, Your Excellency, and bers feel and what they think matters noth­ well do they all know it, those people ing. What the resolution says is the who are saying this, well do they know it important thing when it comes to the heel that they can come forward with resolu­ of the hunt, so I would say that I will be tions that they would propose according opposing this particular resolution with the to this, that and the other, and they know

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1331 it, they have that right to do this, but we cons gone Into very carefully and may arrive at something more satisfactory the electorate should have the oppor­ than what we have today. So do not have tunity of debating it in the next Election. the idea that unless you vote for this all We are only a bit over a year away from is lost. I recommend that you should vote the next Election for the House of Keys. against this but we should still continue Now for us to go and alter the constitu­ to look at the situation with a view to, in ency boundaries just before an Election our time, traa-dy-liooar, take your time and seems to me altogether wrong. I am not come forward. (Interruptions.) You cannot against the idea of getting more even rush these matters and say, “ We w ill stick representation, of course not, I am sure Maughold in with Laxey and a little bit of nobody is, but again the idea has been Onchan.” The recommendation that is propounded this morning that if we accept before us today is built on that kind of this particular proposal for two-member premise, that we should add a little bit of constituencies with these artificial, unnatu­ this and take a little bit of that away. This ral, hard to understand boundaries, every­ is not the way to do things and it would body then will get an equal vote, but they not lead to satisfaction in the long term will not. There will still be a difference of and I would urge that the members who 25 per cent. Some w ill be 15 per cent, are doubtful in any way, the only way they above the average and some will be up to can treat this matter is to vote against it. 10 per cent, below, so you still finish up with a difference of up to 25 per cent, in Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, what the representation, so where is your does it say in the marriage ceremony — equality then? Where is this wonderful, not to be undertaken lightly, wantonly or everybody is going to have an equal vote? III advisedly — and those words express They still will not have an equal vote. As I entirely my feelings to this proposition. say, I was elected to the House of Keys I do not like the way in the debate this and this Court three-and-a-half years ago morning some members were inferring that and am I to go back to the people who you have the goodies and the baddies, elected me here and say to them, without the progressives who were all for progress, any reference to you I have taken it upon everything was good, and anybody who myself to vote for a proposition that all doubted the wisdom, not of reform in constituency boundaries should be chan­ general but of this particular proposition, ged, whether you like it or not. Why do we that is all we are discussing here, this not bring a proposal into this Court that proposal that is before this Court at the our term of office should be extended moment, but those people were everything from five to 10 or 20 years, whatever you that was bad. I am not against reform, as like, why not? If these things are so I am sure Your Excellency and hon. mem­ unimportant . . . I heard one member say bers will grant me in many respects, but I this morning, “Let us get a vote on this am against the idea of making such a and get on to more important items on the basic alteration in the constituency Agenda.” He is an hon. friend of mine I boundaries. It is not just a matter of reduc­ very rarely disagree with, but I do strongly ing the number of members in one con­ disagree with that. I think this particular stituency and increasing another as has proposal is the most important one which been done very rarely, but has been done has been, not only in this session, but two or three times in this century, but to has been before this Court for a long time alter the actual boundaries of the con­ and you do not have to take my word for stituencies so radically as this proposal that. You have only got to read the report. puts before this Court, that is something Let me refer you to one or two of the which needs to be thought about and references which were included in the thought about and all the pros and report itself. You see here they start off

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. T1332 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1S80 on page 2 and they say, “ We appreciate one. You see, for a start, the Commission, that the ability to produce acceptable solu­ as I can well understand, pointed out the tions to the problem of boundary draw­ difficulty in trying to reach a fairer balance ing ...” — how much I agree with them of representation between the constitu­ —“might well govern a final decision on encies. They pointed out right at the the constituency question.” I absolutely beginning, the difficulty is, where do you agree with them. This is really my prime draw the boundary lines? They considered objection to this particular proposal various matters which were ancillary to the because I think the boundaries as they main question and then they said, and this are to be re-drawn are quite unnatural. As was interesting I thought too — “ On none my hon. friend from Castletown said this of these matters did we receive any morning, to go and take Castletown and evidence of widespread discontent.” There put it with Rushen or Arbory or whatever is no evidence of any sort of widespread it is when that is not the natural boundary or any discontent whatsoever at the present for Castletown at all. Do not let us have it time. (Interruption.) There has been no stated as being correct that we are just reference or evidence brought into this debating whether there shall be a re-draw­ Court of any such discontent. (Interrup­ ing of constituency boundaries. What we tion.) Those are the ancillary matters, are talking about here is whether or not and on none of these matters did they we approve the proposal which is included receive any evidence of widespread dis­ as an Appendix to the report of the Com­ content. And who did they get representa­ mission, that is what is before us now. tions from? If you take out members of As my hon. friend, the member of Council, Tynwald and former members of Tynwald Mr. Nivison said, this is what is before who made representations to them, and us now and there is no use saying, oh well, local authorities, you are left with about when the legislation comes into the House five individual people who made represen­ of Keys or into the Legislative Council, tations to the Commission. That was all, then you can amend it all. You can bring out of a total population of 63,000 about in one man per seat or you can have two five felt strongly enough about it to make and three-member seats. We are being representations to the Commission. And asked to give our approval to this pro­ of those, we do not know whether they position and I cannot see that it would be were in favour of maintaining the present fair to my constituents for me to vote in system because they say at least one-third favour of this proposition after three-and- of the people, including members of Tyn­ a-half years in this Court, without any wald, former members of Tynwald and reference to them or without the matter members of local authorities who made being thoroughly argued, debated. I am representations to the Commission, they opposed to instant legislation, very much admit that they were emphatic endorse­ opposed to it. I think this is something we ments of the present constituency structure should give all the time in the world to. so they mentioned that there were very We can have instant or reasonably instant strong feelings by one-third of the people decisions on matters of political policy or in favour of maintaining the present struc­ things which may require instant action but ture but they do not even mention that this does not require instant action. If it there were any feelings, strong or other­ does, why was it not brought into this wise, by the other people in favour of alter­ Court long ago? ing the structure. And they say here that they felt that the balance between town A member: It was. and country must be maintained. Well, that I am sure is something I agree with Mr. Christian: Not into this Court, into very strongly and they have said that the previous Tynwalds it was, but not into this balance between town and country at the

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1333 moment, between Douglas and the rest of extreme anomalies.” It is not characterised the Island, is very fair in the present by anomalies nearly as great as those representation of seven members in which apply in the United Kingdom — no­ Douglas out of the 24 total members of the where nearly as great as the Westminster House of Keys and they thought that was Parliament. "We could not accept that the right and that was in accordance, as it present anomalies in electors per member appears to be, with the total number of should be allowed to develop indefinitely." voters and the number who live in the Now what evidence is there really, they four Douglas constituencies. You see, a 'talk about the position getting worse. lot has been made of the fact that North There is no evidence it will get worse. Douglas has more electors for one member The population of the Island has exploded than, on average, it should have, consider­ by 20,000 in the last 10 years but the indi­ ably more, but if you add together the cations are, as an article in the “ Financial four Douglas constituencies you will get Times” yesterday pointed out, that the 3,072, 4,469, 3,565, 2,797, a total for seven population of the Isle of Man now is on the members of 13,903 which gives an aver­ downgrade. I do not know if you read the age for Douglas of voters per member of article on the Isle of Man in yesterday’s the House of Keys of 1,986 and the over­ "Financial Times" but It pointed out that all average is 1,907. So there is no argu­ the furniture removers were saying that ment, they were very right when they said for every four loads they were taking away, the balance between town and country three were coming back empty. So only must be maintained and they also said on one quarter of the number of people were that subject that they found at the present coming into the Island to live as against time no antagonism as there used to be those leaving the Island. Now there has years ago, very strong antagonism be­ been this great explosion of population in tween town and country, and why? the last few years. It may very well be Because the present balance is right and that we are now at the beginning of a everybody appreciates this. So if you are reaction. Is this then a time to start chang­ going to have two-member constituencies, ing all the constituency boundaries? then they said what do you do about Dou­ glas? It has three constituencies with two Mrs. Quayle: Did you vote for the Resi­ members and one with one. Well, you dents Bill? either have to remove the one and cut it down to six or double up the one and Mr. Christian: It is enough just dealing make it two and put it up to eight. So with this at the moment. (Laughter.) I con­ what have they done? They have put it up gratulate them on their report. I think it to eight by adding on part of Braddan, was very good and I would ask hon. mem­ South Braddan. Well, it is very nice for the bers to bear in mind, Your Excellency, that people of Braddan, is it not? Why should the proposal before this Court now is not they be pushed into a constituency which the one the Commission recommended. really does not represent their interests? They considered this proposal and turned it (Interruptions.) down, so let us bear that in mind, be­ cause that also is a very im portant and Mr. MacDonald: Let us have the two fundamental thing we should bear in mind. figures on the rural areas and the towns. They state in the report that every solu­ tion has its snags and absolute equality Mr.. Christian: Well, you can give your can never be achieved. Well, how right. own figures. I am just drawing the atten­ What a silly wording there was in the tion of this Court to the points I think are original resolution. It is talking about get­ important. You see, “We accepted that the ting absolute equality — there is no such existing situation is not characterised by thing and that is surely generally recog­

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. T1334 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

nised, not in this imperfect world. "Our up piecemeal here and there. It is at least problem” they say, “has been to choose entitled to have a three-member constitu­ an answer with, on balance, the fewest ency of its own as is recommended in the disadvantages.” They say it is not desir­ three and two-member recommendation. able to change boundaries too often. That really is one of the things that I feel, that A member: Are you going to vote for we should wait until we consider that the the three and two? population of the Island has settled down after a population explosion over the last Mr. Christian: All I would like to do, I few years and give ourselves time to think would like to see the matter held over about what alterations need to be made, until after the election — (laughter)— and to consult our constituents, and the time then I am always open to listen to reason to do it would be in two or three years from my constituents, but otherwise I then hence, after an Election. This Court with would favour the three and two-men con­ the next House of Keys can do that. This stituencies as recommended by the Com­ is not a matter to be rushed into “willy mission in their very good report, but they nllly” in the manner some members, appa­ considered this, they did not advise it. A rently, would like to do. You see, they lot of the members, as the hon. member of consider the Isle of Man has a relatively Council said this morning, this was the stable population. It has been anything second best, second choice, that was it, but stable for the last 10 years. You can­ and someone else said it represents the not go up by 20,000 from something under only agreed proposal Executive Council 50,000 to something over 60,000 anyway could make. Is that a basis on which to and say that it is a stable population. So bring in radical alterations in the constitu­ when one looks at the report, and a very encies and the representations of our good report it was, if we are going to 1,000-year-old House of Keys? (Interrup­ have change, and I am not absolutely tion.) You are going for something which opposed to change, no way at all, but you say is not what you really want but I think we want to consider very carefully you would foist that on the electorate what is the best form of change we are rather than nothing at all. going to have and if we are at the end of the day going to have one, I very much Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, we have favour the recommendation of the Commis­ spent a great deal of time today differing sion for three and two-man seats because over exact boundaries. I do not think we it follows a natural alignment of Castle­ have made any progress since last month town with Malew. Ramsey would have a and I think we could go on with this debate joint one then with Andreas, Bride and for days and get no further. I think it was Lezayre, whereas under the proposal which the hon. member of Council, Mr. Kneale, is now before the Court it would remain as who urged us not to get bogged down with a two-member constituency. So you could details but to keep in mind the principle. say it iis against my own, or the interests Consequently, sir, I will support the motion, of Ramsey to be joined up with Andreas, not because I think it is ideal or con­ Bride and Lezayre but, nevertheless, that venient. I have no wish to compete against is a natural joining up. They are the hinter­ the two sitting members for Glenfaba at land of Ramsey and I can well see the the next Election. I shall also support the sense in that. In the three and two-mem­ amendment, not because I think it is per­ ber House the village of Onchan would fect — the thought of being part of a con­ still be kept as a unit, which it should be, stituency from Cronk-ny-Arrey Laa to Blue because Onchan is the biggest growing, Point is terrifying — but I shall support the second most heavily populated area of both these because they are an improve­ the Island. Now you are going to split it all ment on the existing situation.

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1335

The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? people that their evidence would be con­ fidential and Mr. Speaker was told that he Mr. Irving: Yes, I will try and make it could have this evidence if he cleared it, very brief, sir. First of all, would Your Excel­ removed the confidentiality with the per­ lency be kind enough to give us the exact sons who had given the evidence and, to words of the amendment, please? my ¡miind, this is perfectly proper. I have checked this with the Chairman of the The Governor: That Tynwald approve the Commission. I do not want to leave this adoption of a system of two and three- Court under the impression that someone member constituencies as set out in Ap­ in Government decided to make this pendix J of the report of the Commission secret because lit did not suit them to have on the Representation of the People Acts the evidence released. The evidence was dated 26th March 1980. kept confidential because the Commission gave its word it would be. The hon. Mr. Mr. Irving: Thank you very much, Your Speaker also talked about a divided Execu­ Excellency. I would like to thank those hon. tive Council. I do not know what the divi­ members who have supported the motion sion was in Executive Council, certainly no before the Court today and extend my vote was taken, but it did seem to mem­ sympathies to those who felt they could bers that what would probably be the most not support the report or at least the popular of these Appendices in Tynwald motion. I would like to refer to one or two Court would be Appendix F. Now I, per­ speeches made this morning, in particular sonally, supported this because how can I one made by Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker was stand here and say that everybody should congratulated on his oratory this morning, vote for the same number of candidates on his splendid speech. It was, indeed, a and put forward something entirely to the splendid speech, sir, it gave us masses of contrary? It did seem to Executive Council, information which was all based on one which could well be divided, I am not say­ wrong assumption. The hon. member said, ing for one moment that all members of “ In the United Kingdom they have one man, Executive Council are going to vote for one vote. In the Isle of Man we have one this motion — I am sure they are not — man, one vote, which we have here.” Now, but there was this preference in Executive sir, that is the whole point. I have not Council that the most popular thing was laboured the fact this morning that there probably going to be two-member consti­ is a great difference in numbers of electors tuencies. The hon. member of the Council per member which there obviously is — I said he does not agree, the hon. member, will accept that. It happens in the United Mr. Nivison, he does not agree with two- Kingdom. But what does not happen in the seat constituencies but he thinks some­ United Kingdom is that some people have thing is wrong. Now we did hope in one vote and some people have three Executive Council that hon. members, such votes. This is really what we are up against, as my hon. friend in the Council, would the very fact that we have not got one man, come forward with amendments. Where are one vote. We have got o-ne man, three the amendments-? How many amendments votes in certain cases. The only other have we had? What support has there been thing I would like to say about the hon. in the previous debate for amendments? member’s speech is that he did say that certain evidence given to the Commission Mr. Nivison: There is one before us was secret. Someone in Government did today. decide that these things were secret. I am sure no-one in Government decided this, Mr. Irving: There is one, sir, exactly. I so this was decided by the Commission it­ would like to thank the hon. members of self who gave an undertaking to certain the Council who were not here last time,

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. T1336 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Mr. Kneale and Mr. Moore, for their sup­ Now I do not want to go through a lot of port today. Mr. Moore said he favours remarks. I know that time is going on. I single-seat constituencies — so do I — would like to refer to the remarks of the and so do several members of this Court, hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Norman Rad- but if we cannot get single-member con­ cliffe. This big area, Ayre would stretch as stituencies then I submit the next best is far as the eye could see (Laughter.) Is it two. At least it is fair and, as I think the not sad? (Laughter.) In the Legislature of hon. member for Council said, it is a step the Isle of Man someone said, “We can­ in the right direction and some day we not have a constituency as far as the eye will have single-seat constituencies. I hope can see.” I would remind the hon. mem­ that today we can at least move towards ber that if he has not got the population the legislation. The hon. member for he has got to have the area. You cannot Council, Mr. Nivison, said we are have it both ways. (Laughter and interrup­ thoroughly committed here to two-seat con­ tions.) Years ago, Your Excellency, I called stituencies, but if certain hon. members that corner of the House heartbreak corner, Wish in the debates in the Branches of and it has not changed. (Laughter.) The the legislature to change it, now is their only way it has changed is that Kirk opportunity, so that even hon. members Michael and Ayre are still there — they such as Mr. Nivison in the Council, if it goes are lovely really — and in front of them through today, will at least get a chance we have now got Middle joining them — to do something which he claims he wants heartbreak corner. The hon. member said, to do and, therefore, I hope that some hon. “ He is threatening us with a big stick.” The members who cannot put both hands up last time I was accused of threatening any­ for two-seat constituencies will at least put body from Ayre, the late Hugh Radcliffe one up. (Laughter.) I do not expect much said I was threatening him. All I told him from the hon. members for Middle. Some­ was this, and I will repeat it, that Mirabeau one said there it would be detrimental to said, “That malady of Ministers”, or the the people of North Braddan. Of course it illness of politicians, if you like, “ is being would be detrimental because they would able to give today what will inevitably be have to give up some of their unfair elec­ forced from them tomorrow,” and that is toral advantages. (Interruption.) Onchan what is going to happen. In some tomorrow Commissioners have advised us that we this Court will be forced to give justice to should not touch this. Now I have a great the Manx voter. respect for Onchan Commissioners, a very great admiration for Onchan Commission­ The Governor: Hon. members, I will first ers, because they manage to get all the put the amendment as moved by the hon. expensive amenities of Douglas for their member for Rushen. Will those in favour people without paying anything. (Laugh­ of the amendment please say aye; against, ter.) If we move from that we might well no. consider the amalgamation of Onchan and Douglas. A division was called for and voting re­ A member: Hear, hear. sulted as follows: Mr. Irving: I am sorry that the hon. mem­ ber for Rushen feels he cannot support this For: Messrs. Lowey, Walker, Mrs. Quayle, and I refer, of course, to the hon. member, Messrs. Quinney, Ward, Delaney, Mr. Lowey. He says that Executive Council Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Kermeen, Dr. rejected the main recommendation. They Moore, the Lord Bishop, Messrs. did, and I think the voting in this Court in Kneale, Crellin, Nivison, Simcocks and the past proves they were probably right. MacDonald— 16.

Commission on the Representation of the People Acts — Debate Concluded. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1337

Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. was of the opinion that the Isle of Man Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Mrs. Chris­ Water and Gas Authority should proceed tian, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Callin, Watter- with a scheme to construct a new reser­ son, Creer, Cringle, Craine, Christian, voir in the Sulby Valley. Swales, the Speaker, Messrs. Moore, P. Radcliffe and Kerruish— 17. AND WHEREAS on the 17th January 1978 Tynwald approved the payment of a The Governor: The amendment is carried sum not exceeding £60,000 to the Water by 17 votes to 16, hon. members. I will now and Gas Authority during the year ended put the resolution, as amended. Those In 31si March 1978 as a contribution to­ favour please say aye; against, no. wards the cost of exploratory work in A division was called for and voting re­ connection with the proposed new reser­ sulted as follows: voir.

In the Keys: AND WHEREAS financial provision has For: Dr. Mann, Messrs. Lowey, Walker, been included annually in Capital Esti­ Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Quinney, Ward, mates in respect of the foundation and Delaney, Irving, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. other works necessary to enable the Kermeen, Dr. Moore, Mr. Swales, the reservoir to be enlarged at a future date. Lord Bishop, Messrs. Kneale, Crellin, Moore, Nivison, Simcocks and Mac­ AND WHEREAS on the 19th February Donald— 19. 1980 Tynwald received the Fourth Interim Report of the Select Committee of Tyn­ Against: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. wald, and authorised the Water and Gas Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Mrs. Chris­ Authority to proceed with detailed plan­ tian, Messrs. Callin, Watterson, Creer, ning for the enlargement of the Sulby Cringle, Craine, Christian, the Speaker, Reservoir Dam and consequential hydro­ Messrs. P. Radcliffe and Kerruish— 14. electric works at a cost not exceeding £10,000. The Governor: The resolution, as amen­ ded, carries, hon. members, 19 votes being AND WHEREAS on the 27th May 1930 cast in favour and 14 against. Tynwald approved in principle the raising Note: Because of the error made in the of the Sulby Reservoir to its final antici­ voting on the amendment, the divisions on pated height by the appropriate agencies both the amendment and the substantive of Government, such works to be finan­ resolution were taken again on 21st ced out of the General Revenue. October, 1980. NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— SULBY VALLEY RESERVOIR — (a) approves Capital Advances from the CONSTRUCTION TO OPTIMUM General Revenue not exceeding HEIGHT — APPROVED. £950,000, being the balance of the The Governor: Hon. members, as the cost of the initial works in connec­ hon. member for Council, Mr. Simcocks, tion with the proposed eventual en­ will be absent tomorrow in court, could we largement of the Sulby Reservoir please turn to item number 17. Dam;

Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I beg to (b) approves the construction by the move:— Isle of Man Water and Gas Authority WHEREAS at its sitting on the 16th of the optimum height of the reser­ November 1977 Tynwald resolved that it voir subject to a Capital Advance

Sulby Valley Reservoir — Construction to Optimum Height — Approved. T1338 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

from the General Revenue not ex­ ducing the water also on a reasonably ceeding £3m; even slope, as it were. It is only when you reach the point when small schemes are (c) resolves that the loan charges on the no longer useful, where you have to take above advances shall initially be a giant step, as it were, it is only then borne by Executive Government, but that a sudden increase in the cost of water shall become the responsibility of occurs. This is inevitable and we are, in the Isle of Man Water and Gas fact, faced with that problem today, as Authority upon the latter commen­ ratepayers will be able to confirm, but the cing to utilise the enlarged reservoir Water Authority has to make a decision for water supply purposes. which is almost an art. One cannot set out on a massive form of capital expendi­ This is a resolution which flows directly ture which goes far beyond what is needed from the vote taken by this hon. Court on for water purposes. We calculated that by 27th May last when the Fifth Interim Report 1982 our present sources would be of the Select Committee on Energy was matched by consumption and thereafter accepted by the Court, as the result of that demand would exceed supply. It takes which it was possible for the Water and five years, however, from the first step one Gas Authority to obtain estimates of the takes in these matters before water is cost of raising the Sulby dam which is available and that is why in 1977, having now in course of construction, of raising regard to the fact that 1982 was the equal it to the full design height of something date, as it were, in 1977 the Water Autho­ like 200 feet. This is a site which the old rity had to take the first step for the build­ Water Board, in the days when it was a ing of this reservoir and that was why in Committee of the Local Government Board, November of 1977 a resolution was moved always regarded as being ideal for the and this Count passed and accepted the siting of a reservoir. Indeed, just before the principle that a reservoir should be built, Water Authority was formed, a Water Autho­ and that was the first step. Now this reser­ rity with a great deal more independence voir, the original design was one which than the old Water Board had, just before had to be for no purpose other than water the Water Authority Act came into effect supply yet we were faced with a problem the old Board applied to the Local Govern­ of an ideal site capable of producing 10 ment Board getting power to extract water million gallons of water a day and impound­ from the upper reaches of the Sulby river. ing something like five times the amount The Local Government Board of that day, Chaired by the hon. member, the Chairman of water that there is in Injebreck, but what of the Finance Board, gave us that power. we had to do was plan on the basis of 20 Now, the difficulty with this site was that it years ahead, and to do that meant that 3 was really so good as to be almost em­ million gallons of water a day extra was barrassing. It was so good a site that it the only extra quantity which we could was capable of producing 10 million gal­ really justify on the basis of planning for lons of water a day, but in ordsr to produce the end of this millennium, but so as not to that amount of water would have meant completely spoil the site by building a engaging in very substantial works indeed. small reservoir which would only hold, What happens in a water undertaking, by what, 3 million gallons, we did have a and large, is that the demand for water conference with the Finance Board who increases gently and gradually on an even were very helpful to us and who agreed graph, as it were, and as long as one is that the base work for a much larger dam able to meet these demands by small could be laid at a cost which would be met schemes such as water intakes and other by Central Government. That is why the methods, you can keep the cost of pro­ Water Authority will be receiving grants

Sulby Valley Reservoir — Construction to Optimum Height — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1339 totalling £950,000 In this year and the two the Water Authority will start to use for following years. That is to cover the addi­ water purposes some of the water held tional cost of providing a base which has back by this additional height. This is why enabled the 300 million gallon reservoir I have agreed, the Water and Gas Authority which we were building out of our own have agreed, and the Finance Board have resources to be extended, and this was included in this resolution a provision that the situation which met the Tynwald Select once the Water Authority commence to Committee on Energy. Here was a site use water held back by the additional which seemed to the Committee to be an height then the Water Authority, in fairness, ideal place where hydro-electric means will start becoming liable for the charges of could be used to generate a substantial the cost of this. I am very happy today to amount of electrical energy but only, it was be able to put this forward to the Court as felt, if the dam was raised from the 100 a firm, definite resolution. If it is passed foot height, adequate and justifiable for today it will enable work to go forward water purposes, to the 200 foot height which will provide at least 20 years of which would completely exploit the loca­ hydro-electric generation. It will provide tion, and it was because of that that the water supplies which will last the whole Energy Committee put forward its Fourth Island far into the future. We will have a Interim Report, the Fourth Interim Report 70 acre lake providing quite an unrivalled which led to the appointment of experts visitor amenity. I believe for once we will from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Merz and Mc- have done something which will improve not Lellan, who brought forward a report on only our own comfort but the sight of the which the Fifth Interim Report of the Island and the general amenities of the Energy Committee was based, a report district. I am pleased to be able to move which Tynwald passed on 27th May. Since the resolution standing in my name. then negotiations have been entered into Mr. Moore: I beg to second and reserve by officials of the Water and Gas Authority my remarks. with the main contractors at the moment, Shepherd Hills, and Shepherd Hills have Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I am not, been able to give a price to complete the of course, going to oppose the resolution entire height of the dam at a cost of £3 but, with your consent, may I stray from million based on March 1980 prices. We the actual matter before us. I would like to have submitted this to the Finance Board give some facts and figures because this and the Finance Board have approved the is the last sitting in the present session motion as it appears on the Agenda Paper. and I think it is time for us to look at our What will happen, Your Excellency, is that proposed expenditure of which, of course, once the dam has been built the Electricity the Sulby reservoir provides a major part Board will, out of its own resources, pro­ in the forthcoming years. In all, and I vide the machinery and do the work neces­ could itemise this, we have estimated ex­ sary to deal with the electricity part of this penditure and capital works of £3.45 mil­ venture. The only part that the Government lion and there is further estimated expendi­ will be underwriting, as it were, is the cost ture after 1980/81, and some, of course, of this additional height. However, it would are still to be approved by Tynwald, what be unfair to suggest that that was all that we call column 3 items, of £17.17 million, the Water and Gas Authority were going a total of £20.62 million. Why I mention this to do. Eventually, in 20 years’ time, in the is because already I can see the chill wind year 2,000-and-odd, the amount of water of recession coming and we will in three consumption on the Island is likely to be or four years’ time, possibly, from what such that a height of 100 feet would have we can project, at a time when that re­ proved to be inadequate and that therefore cession will have peaked, be subject to

Sulby Valley Reservoir— Construction to Optimum Height — Approved. T1340 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

certain considerable loan charges. I think to the area owned by these owners, and if we have a stable and sound economy, an offer has been made to them offering certainly I hope we will be able to meet 12 acres of land in exchange for 9 acres. them, but I would make this word of warn­ It appears that the extra height involved, ing. It Is up to the community of the Isle apparently, was not quite as I understood of Man to face up to this problem which it. I had understood that negotiations had may be blowing from across the water and been completed on the basis of exchang­ not indulge, the time is not now to indulge ing land for land. It appears that the con­ in the luxury of substantial pay claims and, tours of this particular area are not as worse still, for us to denigrate our own par­ accurate as they might be on the survey ticular economy by words such as "slump", maps. The result has been that more land and so on. This is where I am looking, par­ was required from these people than had ticularly, to the media not to be scare- been anticipated, but the situation is that mongening, not, in fact, to foul their own 12 acres of convenient land have been nest because the newspapers themselves offered to them in exchange for the 9 will be the first to suffer if there is a re­ acres which are needed. I have had no cession and we will then, I suppose, turn word yet whether they have said yes or no on each other and blame each other for about this, but this I understand to be the what is going on. It is a time when, I hope, present position. Your Excellency, we will look forward to our last year in the House of Keys as The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. a year when we must have very steady members? control. It was agreed. Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I have a question for the hon. Chairman and that is, on 27th May I did ask the question about the conveyance of the land on Lhergy- rhenny that was necessary for the exten­ EXPORT OF GOODS (CONTROL) sion of this reservoir. Now I have reason (IRAN SANCTIONS) ORDER 1980 to believe that the answer I got on that (APPLICATION) ORDER 1980 — day was not strictly correct, and I would APPROVED. like to ask the hon. Chairman what is the position today? The Governor: We will turn back to item number 7. The Chairman of the Fin­ The Governor: Would you like to reply, ance Board. sir? Mr. P. RadcHffe: Your Excellency, I beg Mr. Simcocks: In answer to the question to m ove:— of the hon. member for Middle, sir, when I made that answer I understood that nego­ That the Export of Goods (Control) tiations were complete in this respect. I (Iran Sanctions) Order 1980 (Application) gather now, however, that there has been Order 1980 made by the Finance Board a renewal of negotiations, particularly with on the 17th June 1980 be and the same regard to the individuals who, I under­ is hereby approved. stand, are constituents of the hon. mem­ ber. The situation is this, that in order to A member: I beg to second. meet with the very reasonable wishes of those owners who wish to be given Jand The Governor: Is that agreed? for land, the Water Authority has, in fact, acquired a piece of land near the entrance It was agreed.

Export of Goods (Control) (Iran Sanctions) Order 1980 (Application) Order 1980 — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1341

STUDENTS’ GRANTS — INCREASES the resolution of 13th April 1976 to sub­ — APPROVED. stitute a sum not exceeding £1,807,000 for the sum of £1,658,000 previously ap­ The Governor: Item number 8. The proved. Chairman of the Board of Education. AND WHEREAS a report to the Local Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to Government Board indicates that due to move :— further fluctuations and further variations in the contract the cost of the Develop­ That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer ment has now increased to £1,991,400. of the Isle of Man to apply out of the current revenue of this Isle during the NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— year ending 31st March 1981 a sum not exceeding £110,000 to enable the Board (a) approves of a further amendment to of Education to meet the additional esti­ the resolution of 13th April 1976 to mated cost of increases in the rates of substitute a sum not exceeding grant for students in attendance at uni­ £1,991,400 for the sum of £1,807,000 versities and other higher education previously approved; establishments and the adoption of re­ vised scales of parental contribution (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle operative from September 1980. Man to advance out of capital monies during the year ending 31st March A member: I beg to second. 1981 a sum not exceeding £119,980 to meet the additional cost of the The Governor: Is that agreed? Development.

It was agreed. (c) approves of and sanctions borrow­ ings not exceeding the sum of £119,980 being made by Government, such borrowings to be repaid within CHESTER STREET/WELLINGTON a period of 30 years. SQUARE DEVELOPMENT — SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE — APPROVED. At the February 1978 sitting of this hon. Court approval was given to an increase The Governor: Item number 9. The in the total cost of the Chester Street Car Chairman of the Local Government Board. Park development from £1,658,000 to £1,807,000. This increase was based on an Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg estimate made at that time, but in fact the to move :— cost increases in labour and materials were greater than estimated between then WHEREAS Tynwald approved on 13th and the end of the contract in September April 1976 of the building of a multi-storey 1978. In addition, variation orders were car park and other necessary and issued by the Board’s consultants, Ove associated works (hereinafter referred to Arup and Partners, for work involving as “the Development") on land at tenants’ extras, resulting in an increase to Chester Street/Wellington Square in the the figure of £1,991,400 now before the Borough of Douglas at a total cost not Court. The Board's consultants have now exceeding £1,658,000. issued the certificate of practical comple­ tion in respect of the development and AND WHEREAS Tynwald approved on have issued certificates for payment to the 21st February 1978 of an amendment to contractor, Mytons Limited, of a total of

Students’ Grants — Increases — Approved. — Chester Street/Wellington Square Development — Supplementary Vote — Approved. T1342 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

£1,991,400, which the Board are contrac­ like again, complain that we get it on our tually liable to honour. A proportion of the Agenda Paper and we get a speech by the additional cost has been incurred in re­ Chairman of the Local Government Board spect of tenants’ extras and the Board’s as to the reasons. This time it would consultants are negotiating with Allied appear it is for tenants’ extras, whatever Suppliers Limited and Douglas Corporation that may mean. I do believe that the Local on the amounts that will be recoverable Government Board, if it wants the members from them. The final cost of the develop­ of this Court to give it support, should sub­ ment is the subject of discussions between mit a paper with the reasons in advance the Board’s consultants and the contractor of this Court and we have not had it. Now and the amount will be abated by the again, Your Excellency, as I say, I know amount due from Allied Suppliers and Dou­ this is not easy for the Chairman of the glas Corporation but these sums remain Local Government Board. I am certain he to be determined and in the first instance and his colleagues have no joy in com­ authority is needed for the Board to meet ing here and asking not for one supple­ the costs certified by the consultants. The mentary vote, but two, two years almost additional costs are not unduly large in after the work has been completed and, relation to the overall cost of the project therefore, I feel that the members of this as a whole, a project which, I might say, is Court owe it to the taxpayers whose money a major asset to the town and the Island we are spending to ask for more informa­ and I am seeking the support of hon. tion and I regret that I will not be able members to the motion standing in my to support this this afternoon. name. Mr. Delaney: Yes, Your Excellency, I Mr. Moore: I beg to second. could quote from Hansard but I will not read it out, I will not embarrass the hon. Mr. Lowey: I am afraid, Your Excellency, member by reading out exactly what I said that I cannot shout agreed to this parti­ at that meeting, and I will not again this cular added expense to the Manx tax­ afternoon support him. I think we have payer. I will remind the hon. Chairman of been taken to the cleaners, and I will re­ the Local Government Board that when he peat the question I put to the hon. Chair­ came for his first supplementary vote of man of the Government Property Trustees. £150,000 on 21st February 1978, I did ask Are we taking legal action against the a supplementary question of him then, and people who represented us on this con­ I will read it in full: “Can I have the tract? Every contract we seem to get in­ assurance, Your Excellency, that the volved in we get taken to the cleaners. £149,000 increase that we are being asked to support this afternoon is not an intern Mr. MacDonald: What I would like to increase, and that next year, or the next ask, Your Excellency, is, we have been financial year, we are not going to come getting this, with monotony, over the few along with another rise in the price?” years since we constructed it, but looking Then I went on to say, "Is it a fact that at the actual project itself, what I would included in this £149,000, — what like to know from the Chairman is, what are the increased fees to the archi­ are we getting in actual income? I am tects?”, and yet two years later we quite convinced it has reached the non­ are now being asked for another vote of sense stage where we may as well let a not unsubstantial figure. What alarms me the people in for nothing. It is certainly is the monotonous regularity that we have not attracting people from all over the in this Court of getting these supplemen­ town to go and park there. Some days tary votes, and really I think the time has you have got your promenade jammed, come to call a halt, and also to, if you they are jammed everywhere on the

Chester Street/Wellington Square Development — Supplementary Vote — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1343 streets, and half of that is empty, so I think Douglas would be absolutely in chaos we may as well let them in for nothing today if it were not for that car park. It because what we are going to pick up is one of the most worthwhile jobs that for what we have paid is such a pittance this Government has done, and rightly that it is not worth bothering about. done, in Douglas, for the people of Dou­ glas and the people of the Island who use Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, in reply the car park. There is no question, Your to the hon. member who has just re­ Excellency, maybe even in the future that sumed his seat, the hon. member of Coun­ there will have to be a further car park cil, Mr. MacDonald, of course, we are if the problem is going to be dealt with getting a very substantial rent from Allied adequately in the Douglas area. I can as­ Suppliers. sure the hon. member for East Douglas and the hon. member for Rushen that it Mr. MacDonald: What is it? gives me no joy to come here this evening, and I was horrified when I found out that Mr. Anderson: Well, I can let the hon. I had got to come to Tynwald Court with member know but it would not be fair to this. The difficulty is when you engage make it public here today. consultants you put a lot of responsibility in their hands, and I was horrified that Mr. MacDonald: Why not? they did not even have to come back to our Board, because of the nature of the Mr. Anderson: I think it would be unfair. contract drawn up, to seek our advice as It is a private company and I think it to whether these things should be, and I would be rather unfair — (interruptions) do not want to say too much here today — but I will, and the hon. member, as a because it could involve a lot more in former member of my Board when this the future and I will not say in what nature was incurred, I thought he knew. that is until this is sorted out. I do not want to stir the pot at this stage because Mr. MacDonald: Not when this was I hope that things can be settled amicably, started. but I would point out to hon. members that, in fact, over the total period of the Mr. Anderson: Well, it was before my contract, which is 88 weeks, the total was time, as far as that is concerned. 21.96 per cent, increase which really, in terms of the way inflation has gone, has Mr. Delaney: It is a matter of public not been as bad as it might have been. record. But what I am concerned about is the amount of work done without any autho­ Mr. MacDonald I was never happy with risation from our Board whatever and ap­ this lot. parently there is no way in which we can say that that will not be done because they Mr. Anderson: Well, Your Excellency, I say a certain amount of latitude has got am not prepared to disclose that. to be given to the consultants so that it fits in. What I am hoping is that we shall Mr. MacDonald: What are we making on be able to recover some of that money on the car park? behalf of the taxpayers because I can as­ sure the hon. members that I am equally Mr. Anderson: On the car park, of concerned, as members of my Board will course you are not making money. You be, about the way in which these things are not ever going to make money on the move. But as I say, we live in this un­ car park. But I would point out that it is fortunate state where inflation is running a great asset to Douglas and, in fact, so rampant and it is very difficult to con­

Chester Street/Wellington Square Development — Supplementary Vote — Approved. T1344 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

trol contracts but what I am concerned Mr. Craine: Your Excellency, I beg to about is the fact that work can be done m ove:— without the authorisation of the Board who employs the consultants and it is some­ That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer thing I certainly will be watching out for of the Ise of Man, in respect of the year in the future. ended 31st March 1978, to apply from surplus receipts totalling £5,986 of the The Governor: Will those in favour of Assessment Board the sum of £5,854 in the resolution please say aye; against, no. payment of excess expenditure.

A division was called for and voting Authorised Actual resulted as follows :— Expenditure Expenditure £58,580 £64,434 In the K e ys:

For: Messrs. Anderson, Quirk, J. J. A member: I beg to second. Radcliffe, J. N. Radcliffe, Mrs. Chris­ The Governor: Is that agreed? tian, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Callin, Creer, Walker, Cringle, Ward, Irving, Mrs. It was agreed. Hanson, Mr. Kermeen, Dr. Moore, Messrs. Christian, Swales and the Speaker — 18. ASHLEY HILL SCHOOL — EXTENSIONS Against: Messrs. Watterson, Lowey, — APPROVED. Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Quinney, Craine and Delaney — 6. The Governor: Item number 11. The Chairman of the Board of Education. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the reso­ lution carries in the Keys, 18 votes being Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, I beg to cast in favour and six votes against. m ove:—

In the C o u n c il: (a) That Tynwald approves the scheme for extensions to Ashley Hill School For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Kneale, at a total cost not exceeding Crellin, Moore, P. Radcliffe, Nivison, £170,000. Kerruish, Simcocks and MacDonald — 9. (b) Authorises the Government Trea­ surer to expend out of capital monies A gainst: Nil. during the year ending 31st March 1981 a sum not exceeding £80,000 to The Governor: In the Council, nine in meet the additional cost, such sum favour and none against, the resolution to be additional to the amounts al­ therefore carries. ready authorised.

(c) Approves and sanctions borrowing not exceeding £80,000 being made EXCESS EXPENDITURE — YEAR by Government, such borrowings to ENDED 31st MARCH 1978 — be repaid within a period of 30 years. APPROVED. (Reference: Item 15 page 10, Annual The Governor: Item number 10. The Estimates of Government Treasurer 1980/ Chairman of the Assessment Board. 81).

Excess Expenditure — Year Ended 31st March 1978— Approved.— Ashley Hill School — Extensions — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1345

A member: I beg to second. Hon. members will recall that the Report of the Local Government Board on The Governor: Is that agreed? Refuse Incineration and Waste Heat Recovery and Utilisation was approved It was agreed. by them at the October 1979 sitting. This report contained a number of proposals to achieve a more satisfactory means of refuse disposal than that pro­ REFUSE INCINERATION PLANT — vided by the present pulverisation plant. PRELIMINARY EXPENSES — APPROVED. Principally, the proposals were that appro­ priate budgetary provision be made in the The Governor: Item number 12. The Board’s 1980/81 and subsequent Capital Chairman of the Local Government Board. Estimates in respect of the purchase of a site and the construction, at Government Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to cost, of an incineration plant, and that m ove:— on the approval of those estimates the Board should proceed to tender stage in WHEREAS Tynwald on 17th October order to present the project to this hon. 1979 resolved that the Report of the Local Court for final approval. Provision to cover Government Board on Refuse Incineration preliminary design fees was made in the and Waste Heat Recovery and Utilisation Board’s Capital Estimates this year and be approved. budgetary provision of £50,000 for this pur­ pose has been approved by this hon. NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— Court. The sum has, however, proved to be insufficient as the total design fees (a) approves of the expenditure by the which the Board proposes to incur this Local Government Board of a sum year amount to £65,000. The motion in my not exceeding £65,000 during the name therefore seeks not only approval for year ending 31st March 1981 for the my Board to proceed to design stage, but purposes of agreeing a sketch design also seeks an additional £15,000 for this for a Refuse Incineration Plant, pro­ purpose. It is essential that a means of re­ ceeding to a design standard suffi­ fuse disposal to replace the ageing pulve­ cient for applying for planning and risation plant now be progressed as a bye-law approval, and obtaining a matter of some urgency, and the Board’s detailed budget price. view that the most suitable means of re­ fuse disposal for the future is an incinera­ (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle tion plant has, of course, been endorsed of Man to advance out of capital by Tynwald. The pulverisation plant is monies during the year ending 31st now nearing the end of its useful life and March 1981 a sum not exceeding maintenance costs, which have never been £15,000, such sum to be additional low, are likely to rise progressively as a to the amounts already authorised. result in the years ahead. In addition, the Board, as hon. members may be aware, (c) approves of and sanctions borrow­ is experiencing difficulties in the use of ings not exceeding £15,000, such existing landfill sites for crude and pulve­ borrowings to be repaid within a rised refuse. The use of both Billown period of 20 years. Quarry and Oatlands Quarry has caused technical problems and may have contri­ (Item 21, page 12 of the Isle of Man buted to the pollution of certain adjacent Annual Estimates of the Government water courses and by the middle of this Treasurer 1980/81 refers.) decade both these sites will be filled if

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses — Approved. T1346 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

the present use of them is continued. The vision for waste heat recovery and utilisa­ only suitable site then available would be tion in accordance with whatever recom­ the Bride Ayres Tip which has a consider­ mendations of the Energy Committee in ably longer life but the use of this site as the matter are endorsed by Tynwald. As an all-island tip would obviously involve regards siting, the Board is not yet com­ very heavy transportation costs and the re­ mitted to any one definite site. One placement of the ageing pulverisation important consideration in determining plant. An incineration plant, on the other siting is waste heat recovery. If we are to hand, although initially expensive to con­ utilise the heat from the plant then clearly struct, would involve lower maintenance the plant has to be located conveniently costs and the waste product is only 10 per to a suitable outlet. Again the report of cent, by volume of the initial refuse and is the Energy Committee will be material, in an inert state. Thus, not only would the and a final choice will not be made until exhaustion of existing valuable landfill the contents of that report are known. In sites be deferred, but the inert state of the the meantime the Board has a preferred refuse would open up the possibility of the site which is considered to be very suitable use of other less remote sites. For these from the point of view of transport, com­ reasons, and in accordance with the gene­ munications and refuse disposal and this ral approval in principle given by this hon. is at Groves Road in Douglas on land Court to the concept of refuse incinera­ adjacent to Douglas Power Station. The tion, my Board wishes to proceed with the Douglas Corporation, the owners of the next phase of its plan to build an incinera­ land, have signified their willingness in tion plant. This will involve expenditure on principle to convey the land to the Board the design fees I have referred to so that for this purpose and provided the site is a further motion can be submitted to Tyn­ suitable from a waste heat recovery point wald in due course seeking approval to the of view I feel this is the site my Board is construction of the plant and detailing likely to recommend. However, this is a capital and running costs. There are two matter which I would propose to report on further aspects of the proposal for a refuse fully when in due course I present the incineration plant to which I should refer. Board's proposals for the construction of One is the possibility of building into it a a refuse incineration plant based on the waste heat recovery facility and the other preliminary work for which we seek ap­ is the question of siting. So far as waste proval today. Suffice to say at this point heat recovery is concerned, this was re­ that the environmental implications of the ferred to in the report of October 1979 and proposed plant are nowhere near as sig­ the Board is very mindful of the need to nificant as might be assumed from some try and utilise the otherwise wasted heat recent comment in the local press. The from the plant if at all possible. Waste Board has visited and inspected a num­ heat recovery is not, however, the Board’s ber of similar plants in Europe. They are prime concern and we are looking at the normally located in developed areas plant first and foremost as the most suit­ where, incidentally, their waste heat can able means of disposing of the Island’s be utilised, and the Board has been im­ refuse. The Tynwald Select Committee on pressed by the cleanliness, lack of noise, Energy is separately looking at the possi­ absence of smell, and so on. The environ­ bility of utilising the heat from a plant mental impact of the sort of plant we have such as we envisage and I understand in mind can be equated to that of a light that their report on the subject is immin­ industrial works so that we would expect ent. Hopefully, the final detailed proposals that the only real effect would be the for the plant which we will be able to bring modest additional traffic generated in the back to the Court after the study for which area. It was very noticeable that in the we now seek approval will include a pro­ European examples visited the plants were

Refuse Incineration Plant— Preliminary Expenses -— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1347 located next to residential areas, super­ was built, Pulrose, over half a century markets, and in one case the town hall ago, was built adjacent to a tip and ever itself, and where these plants were so since, in the 50-odd years since that, it located they were not the subject of com­ has been adjacent or it has been flanked plaint from local residents. I know that the in one way or another by a tip. Tynwald Select Committee on Energy has also visited similar plants in the course of A member: It was built on a tip. their investigations and I feel sure that they will bear out my remarks on the minimal Mr. Ward: Well, it was practically on a impact on the environment of such plant. tip, I accept that, and I do believe that the Your Excellency, I ask the Court to reite­ time has come when we come to think that rate their general support for the concept in this Court alone we have voted many of refuse incineration and authorise the thousands of pounds which are being Local Government Board to employ con­ spent at this particular time to give lower sultants to take us through the next stage Pulrose a face lift which I think it so of this very important development. badly needs and I hope it will have the express purpose of lifting the status of the Mr. Moore: I beg to second, Your estate to some degree. I think in all fair­ Excellency, and reserve my remarks. ness, ladies and gentlemen, that when one looks at the situation, and I have said Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, for the relief before, it has been flanked by tips, it is of the Chairman let me say right away that practically built on a tip, and it has been I am not opposing the resolution at all and, turned into a very heavy commercial and in fact, let me express support for the industrial area ever since that; add to that incineration plant in principle, and I think the building and the construction of the I can safely say that the majority of people power station, the noise and inconvenience I represent and my colleague in South in which people have had to live in that Douglas represents are also in favour of estate, and anybody who has got any the incineration plant but I think it is criticism about planning in modern days politic at this particular time to say, and might look back sadly on those days when here we might be accused, to some extent, a power station of the size of Pulrose and the good people who have already could be built adjacent, within 300 to 400 taken action on this have been accused, yards, of a housing estate. I think we will to some extent, of being perhaps a bit agree that maybe we have progressed a premature. Whether they are premature or little bit from that date. This is why we are whether they are not, I think it is time, and here in this particular Court today to the right time is now before the thing gets register the very strongest objection to any off the ground too steeply, to express as incineration plant being sited in Pulrose. strongly as we can the objection to the Now I do agree that there is a selling siting of the incineration plant in the region point, as Mr. Chairman has outlined in his of Pulrose. Now that is not my opinion proposition, and the selling point is that it alone and It is not only the opinion of my can be quite an attractive building, there colleague in South Douglas, but it is the is no smell, there are no fumes, there is good opinion and the opinion which is no mess but, nevertheless, there is the backed up by a petition of between 1,100 possibility in one way they are going to and 1,200 people in Pulrose who are have at least in a very, as I say, industri­ interested enough to express concern for alised area at the moment populated by the place they live in and the status that many families, many young children, the it might be reduced to. Now, having talked nightmare maybe of 40 wagons a day about Pulrose, many of us here can go approximately. They are going to traverse back a good long time and ever since it that road which is already being used by

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses — Approved. T1348 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

heavy traffic for one thing and another public, in advance, the opportunity to have cutting through from the Spring Valley their say about it and I hope that they will Road. I think if we add to it and I think if take heed of what I have said today you really believe that the inconvenience because I think it is a very real cause and and the way in which the Pulrose estate I give them the fullest support in every way has been messed about in the last 50 in which they can bring about what they years, I fully support these people, and want to do. I really do believe that it is time that the Corporation, seeing they are spending the Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I rise to money now on a face lift for the estate, support the hon. member for South should be thinking in terms of devising Douglas who has just resumed his seat some ways of lifting the bottom end of the and I would rise not, I hope, in criticism estate of this tip sort of environment of them because they have a problem and because I think the people in Pulrose have have had a problem for many years over had enough to put up with over the many the idea of a pulverisation plant, which I years they have had to live there. I do not would say, and the public of this Island want to harp too much on the power would say, was a waste of money from its station, and Mr. Irving knows what I mean, inception. It was never going to work from and you have actually got to go and sit in the week after it was built. But now we a house for two or three hours at the have a positive idea, cannot we use a bottom end of Pulrose to really appreciate little bit of imagination because we also what those people have to put up with. have a housing problem to go with it in I really do believe that this is the straw the Isle of Man with 800 people looking for which could break the camel’s back. I homes in this Island and one of the major think the Corporation should be thinking problems after you get your home, as we strongly in terms of making the environ­ find in South Douglas, at Anagh Coar, is ment better and trying to get the whole heating it. Cannot we use a little bit of estate out of the tip sort of environment imagination and design this plant to go in which it has been built up and which it somewhere and the heating from it to put has had to go through for 50 years. I do heating into homes? Cannot a more con­ appeal to the Chairman, before this thing structive idea come forward than putting it gets too far off the ground, that they will where it is not wanted and never will be look at alternative sites and that they will wanted, in a housing estate which has got give us the full consultation, that they will a plant alongside it which actually rocks consult with people or representatives the foundations and anybody in this Court from that particular area and listen to the who has not actually gone to see it and reasons why they do not want it. I think see the problems and yet will vote for this this is a very genuine concern. It may be place in the future to go to Pulrose is put aside by some people. In some areas doing a disservice not only to the people it is, perhaps, a storm in a teacup. It is in Pulrose and the surrounding area but of very real concern to the people who live a disservice to himself and his own con­ there and I would appeal to the Chairman stituents. It will show how easy it is to sell of the Local Government Board in parti­ an idea to the general public. How quickly cular to give it every consideration. And, we, outside the problem, are prepared to of course, I know the Council at this put it on someone else’s back because particular time may be divided upon what that is what we would be doing if we put the outcome of this would be but I would this plant in the Pulrose area. If we are appeal to the Local Government Board going to build this plant, and it is obvious before they accept this situation even from we are going to because we have got to the Douglas Town Council to give the do something about refuse disposal in the people who live there and the general Isle of Man, let us look for one of these

Refuse Incineration Plant— Preliminary Expenses— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1349

120-acre housing estates they have got ment, we handed it over to a local autho­ planning permission on, just on the rity to operate who had not a clue how to boundaries of a housing estate, in Willas- operate the thing and, therefore, this is what ton, owned by speculators who have got caused the damage to the pulverisation nothing better to do than sit down and plant and it would still be working today wait for the price to go up while we foot if it had been worked properly. But look­ the bill. Let us put it somewhere like that. ing at the resolution, Your Excellency, it Acquire a site by compulsory purchase rather amazes me that although through­ and heat the homes that we build for the out the world we have all different forms Manx public and we might be getting value of pulverisation plants and incineration for money. The magic word was mentioned plants or whatever they may be, we by the Chairman — consultants. Well, we have to consider a resolution where it sug­ have heard all about consultants at Ques­ gests that £65,000 be paid for the pur­ tion Time this morning. What are they pose of agreeing to a sketch design for going to consult this time at the next a refuse incineration plant, proceeding to stage because the figures that have been a design standard sufficient for applying quoted today we, as experienced mem­ for planning permission and obtaining a bers, know in this Court will be nowhere detailed budget price. Now, as a farmer near the price on the Day of Judgment I used to buy, shall I say, a combine and that will be two years after the plant harvester. I never asked some engineer to is built because we will still be solving the design for me specially a combine problems and the prices and the quota­ harvester. I might have been able to buy tions coming in will be nowhere near the different makes of them but normally they price it is likely to cost the taxpayers of were designed and you purchased one and this Isle of Man. I would suggest to the it worked satisfactorily. I wonder why it is member that instead of being more or that a pulverisation plani, as such, has less certain that it is going to go to Pul­ got to be designed specifically for use in rose, do not be so certain. There are a lot the Isle of Man? The Chairman has told us of people like myself in Douglas, members they have visited various incineration of this Court even, who will support the plants and they have seen these incinera­ member for South Douglas, Mr. Ward, in tion plants working. Are we satisfied — his fight to look after the interests of his and we come back to this point again of constituents who have got enough to put experts and the fees we have to pay for up with and have had for the last 50 years. getting advice — that this is absolutely essential, that we have to have a specifi­ Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, just on cally designed refuse incineration plant the point made by the hon. member who designed for the Isle of Man? If we have a has just resumed his seat, we have an suitable site why is it that we cannot get amazing number of experts in this hon. the design that has been suplied to people, Chamber. He made criticism of the pul­ say, in other parts of the world and have verisation plant. What I am going to say that same plant installed in the Isle of this afternoon, Your Excellency, I was 15 Man? years on the Local Government Board and I appreciate very much the problems Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I rise, not they have in refuse disposal, but what I to vote against this resolution but cer­ would like to say is that if they are going tainly to question it because in previous on with this incineration plant, for discussions on this I have tried to stress Heaven's sake, if we are paying for it we that one’s support should be based on operate it. What went wrong with the pul­ prior utilisation of the heat. I know the verisation plant was we bought a pulveri­ Local Government Board is primarily con­ sation plant, we paid for it by the Govern­ cerned with refuse disposal but this is a

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses — Approved. T1350 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 very expensive way of disposing of fact that we have done all our investiga­ refuse. It is a very efficient way of dispos­ tions now on the Continent. ing of it. But if we are to contribute to the energy requirements of the Island then it A member: Not all. must, and we must, ensure that heat pro­ duced by it is used. Apart from the environ­ Mr. Quirk: Not all, no, we have not been mental position in Pulrose, and I appre­ given any illustration of any incinerator ciate very much the sufferings of the nearer home. The only one I know of at people in Pulrose from the existing power the moment is at Coventry which had one station, I question really whether it is still and is now in a state of disuse, but I do correct to site it there for reasons of heat support the principle. What I want to say utilisation subsequently. There could be an has largely been said already this after­ argument that the power station next door noon. The first is about pollution. I think to it would be the standby source of heat there is no danger of pollution on the when the incineration plant is not in use. ground but there is a great deal of pollution Of course this is one of the additional in the air. expenditures that one has to face up to, but even taking advantage of having the A member: Not at all. power station next door which could be a source of standby heat, where in the Pul­ Mr. Quirk: You may say, not at all. I rose area are you going to have a con­ know you are putting up a chimney 70 feet tinuous utilisation? (Interruption.) Yes, high but there is such a thing as down one hon. member mentions a housing draught and it has been mentioned, those estate. Now a housing estate will only use who live in Pulrose and who go to the bowl the heat during the winter-time. We need occasionally for sport do get an idea of a continuous utilisation. I am certain from the objectionable smells that emanate the point of view of my Board that we from the nearby power station, this is some­ should, in fact, be utilising some of this thing that may happen. What I want to say heat for horticultural growing continuously in this respect is, this incinerator will because even in the summer-time we can utilise or will burn up all the refuse in the use it. What I want to be quite sure of Isle of Man and I just wonder now whether before we go too far on a very expensive we should be looking at the incineration of project which has very many advantages pathological and animal waste. This is is that we tie up all the advantages before something which maybe we have to look we start discussing the final cost. I am at very seriously now and we will have to not convinced that the Pulrose site is find a situation to dispose of this. Now if correct for many reasons. I think the local this does not exude some sort of smell, I members are right in opposing it. But if do not know what will, so this is one thing there is some overwhelming technical that I think you should bear in mind. The reason, well then, one should be looking only other practical question I would like at it again. I know it does not make a noise to ask now just to try to clear this up is and it does not make a smell and probably how this is going to operate? Is it going to the lines of communication are right but operate on a system where you have your I cannot see that the utilisation is right biggest bulk of refuse coming in in the unless you have got some information that summer-time? If this is the case the plant I am not aware of. is going to be much oversized. If it is going to operate on a level basis where Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I have you are going to turn out, if you are in the always had some reservations about the heat business, for instance, you must have incineration of refuse and I think those a level product through the season so you reservations are, in a way, increased by the must, therefore, store for the time when

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1351 you have got less rubbish to dispose of. that in Jersey, it is evident, you talk about Now if it is going to use all the refuse in inert, non-combustible material. There is an the summer-time then I wonder what is immense amount of inert, non-combustible going to happen in the winter-time when material, glass, tinplate and so on, all to the rubbish is only half what it is in the be disposed o f; in other words, this is not summer-time. This is the practical problem going to do away with tipping and, there­ as I see it. Do we have at the start an fore, we have got to consider in the wider incinerator which is going to be used in a context the retention of a tipping process. level sort of way so that it can sustain The only other question I would like to waste heat? I am sure when we are talk­ ask, because It is not clear from the resolu­ ing about waste heat we have got to realise tion, is that we would agree obviously on that this is going to put quite a consider­ a sketch design for a refuse incineration able amount of money on to the project. plant proceeding to a design standard I am not against it, I am all for it, but we sufficient for applying for planning and bye- must look at the practicalities of it, that law approval, and I would hope when we will have a station that will only sustain that report is ready and before you make waste heat for a very short time, probably any application for planning approval you five days a week. What do we do on the will come back and keep this hon. Court other two days? This is the question I fully informed of what is going on. I think would like answered. I am all in favour of in that way we will arrive at something the incinerator but I do hope that you will which is satisfactory but as a member look at the practical problems. for Douglas, along with all my colleagues, I feel we have a special interest in this and Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I think I would not like to see that interest it is a valid point to say that as a public ignored or overruled. relations exercise this has been singularly clumsy and I would like the whole of the Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, can we Court today to give heed to my hon. first of all deal with the question of colleague from South Douglas, Mr. Ward, whether or not we require an incineration who has made a plea which I would cer­ plant and I think the answer from all the tainly back up, that all the Douglas mem­ members of this hon. Court is, yes, it is bers who are not on the Local Government the only alternative in the Isle of Man at Board or on the Energy Committee or any­ this current date. We can talk about baling, thing like that should be consulted. It is we can talk about composting, we can obvious that the Local Government Board talk about all the systems and having done has in mind a site in or near Douglas. I our homework on these particular exer­ can understand the reasons for that but it cises we come down to one specific point would be, I think, courteous to say the and that is, yes, we require a modern type least, if all the Douglas members and the incineration plant to dispose of the refuse Douglas Town Council were invited forcon- in this Island where all the holes are either sultations. I think this would clear the air. filled up or are creating problems, so if Now the other thing, of course, on this, we agree on that point we then come to much has been said, I think, about five the basic necessity as to where a plant of wagons a day coming in. this size must be placed, and the perfectly obvious thing is that it must be near the A member: No, five an hour. centre of the greatest populated area for obvious reasons. The local authorities who Mr. Kermeen: Well, whatever it is. I am are concerned most with the problem of thinking more of the wagons going out the disposal of the refuse to the particular because the one thing, having seen, unlike site are faced with tremendous costs for the Board, only one type of plant, namely, transport and therefore that is point A. The

Refuse Incineration Plant— Preliminary Expenses — Approved. T1352 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 question raised by Dr. Mann, the hon. in that area. If we look at another site in member for Garff, has had a considerable the Tromode area, possibly beyond Balla- amount of consideration, not only by the mona, you would provide sufficient heat Local Government Board but by the Energy from your incineration plant up there to Committee which you set up in order to produce commercially a heating system, deal with the question of heating. Nowthere possibly to Clucas’s Laundry, to the Fat- is a tremendous amount of heating avail­ stock Marketing Association premises, to able from incineration plants. What the the Milk Marketing Association premises, Local Government Board are doing at this all large users of hot water and heat and, time is saying, we will carry out our remit possibly, even to our own Ballamona Hos­ of providing an incineration plant which pital and Mannin Home. So here are has the capability of producing heat. Now alternatives which are open to us. And the capability would be built into the plant then we come back to the one at Pulrose, at the early design stage and it is there­ as we say. Now when we say Pulrose site fore available for many uses. If we could we are talking about Pulrose in the context take examples, if it was sited adjacent of being very much adjacent to the electri­ to an electricity undertaking the result is city station which is already there at obvious. Heat produces electricity. The present, very much adjacent to King conversion of the heat to electricity is George V park. If we look at the traffic done by generators, naturally, but heat is problem rather than the environmental the basic process whether you use oil or problem in the first place, we have already whether you use coal. This, as a general heard about 40 wagons a day. Now 40 rule, is the way to produce electricity. The wagons a day, if you worked out little sums other method, of course, we know is by the of your own you could assume that 16 of production of sufficient water or other pro­ those wagons coming from outside of cess to drive a dynamo but it can be used Douglas would proceed along the bottom for the production of electricity. It could end of Spring Valley, would pass four be used to produce sufficient domestic houses belonging to the Douglas Corpora­ heating for the whole of Pulrose and Anagh tion and go directly into the plant — Coar, but, of course, obviously, it cannot would pass four houses, 16 vehicles, within be used because of the initial cost of intro­ the course of an 8-hour day, all right, work ducing the system into houses which are out your sums. How many lorries are going already built, so where do we go from past per hour? From the other end, the here? If we talk about sites and let us other 24 lorries coming in from Douglas, talk about sites, not try to hide anything, passing not more than 12 houses in Pul­ there are three sites which you can look rose. It is not going through Pulrose, it is at reasonably and sensibly. The first one going along the bottom end, passing some­ is at our Middle farm where we are now thing like 24 houses altogether, Groves finishing up with the question in the years Road, nothing else, passing Groves Road. to come of the system that we are using Now that is the traffic problem. The now and we are looking for something a traffic problem you can work out your­ bit different. Now if we look at Middle selves. Now the petition that came in, farm purely and simply as a site to pro­ obviously people have to take notice of a duce incineration and to burn refuse, I petition. The petition said : “ For the resi­ think we could probably get away with it dents against the siting of the plant at without any environmental problem for Groves Road for the sake of our health anybody. The use of the heat therefrom and our children.” And none is more would only be available, possibly, to go sympathetic than me to this plea from the across the road to Ballakinnish, a question people in the area. I have the greatest that was raised, to produce heat for one sympathy with any people living in that nursery. That would be the total capability area who have these problems. What I

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1353 would object to, incidentally, and this is Coventry, and there were comments on that when the petition was presented to Manx Radio and other places about this the Local Government Board, in order to particular plant, but it was described as a make the petition more meaningful we Rolls-Royce job because they built a plant should not have signatures on it from too big for the capability of the district and Waterfall View, Lower Foxdale, Slieu Cairn, it finished up with the ridiculous situation The Braaid, Old Coachhouse, Glen Helen, of Coventry having to send round to ad­ Bay View, South Cape, Laxey, and many jacent authorities to supply them with re­ others which I could quote. And we should fuse in order to keep the plant going. Now not, incidentally, on that petition have this particular type of plant which we are duplication of signatures which I can talking about, built by Braun and Soren­ prove, at least four, and this sort of thing sen, a foreign firm, has been tested and tends to lower the tone of the petition. tried in the United Kingdom. We have seen two at least in the United Kingdom. I have Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, on a point seen them working in Sweden, in Denmark. of order, I think in all fairness, I said there I also know that they have been exported was a figure between 1,100 and 1,200 sig­ as far as Japan. Now when I say I have natures. Now it might very well be and I seen them working, the fact that worried would not deny it for one moment that me about incineration was, what about the there could be double signatures or there environmental problems? What I looked for could be people with the same name or in the first place through the top of the there could be mistakes, but this is not on chimney was what was the smoke emis­ trial in this particular Court at this particu­ sion? Every plant I have seen, because of lar time. There may be other times when the precipitators built into the machine, we could decide whether the petition was there is absolutely no smoke emission from genuine. I am prepared to lay my case on the incineration plants that I have seen, the fact that the people who signed that somewhere in the region of 10 to 12. petition were very genuine in their con­ There is no smell whatsoever on the out­ cern for their children and for the prob­ side of the plant. In Albertslund, the one lems of the estate. that we saw in one place in Denmark, the town hall was built absolutely next door Mr. Moore: I am not denying that, Your to the incineration plant after the incinera­ Excellency, I am merely saying that to give tion plant was already there. A large hous­ credibilty to any petition, the persons who ing estate was built adjacent to the plant, presented the petition should at least care­ as close as Pulrose houses are to the pre­ fully check it and make sure that these sent plant, and a large shopping centre is things cannot be laughed out of court by built on the other side of it; all within the means of the fact that in any court sig­ context of one complete complex is an in­ natures which are produced twice on cineration plant, the town hall, a shopping the one petition do denigrate the fact that centre and a large housing estate. There the petition is there. Now, all right, the were no problems whatsoever environmen­ only point that I am making is based on tally. Now this is the only reason that I the fact that when we looked at incinera­ said, I am not too worried about the siting tion plants reference was made to the of the plant because it is meticulously question of the Coventry incinerator by one clean. Let us face the other problem and member of the Court, I cannot remember let us put some of the onus on the people who. The Coventry incinerator, incident­ that we are concerned with. This question ally, made headlines in the paper. It was was dealt with at officer level. It was dis­ called the Rolls-Royce of plants. It was cussed with the people representing described as a Rolls-Royce job, purely Douglas at officer level and it was even­ and simply because the people in tually brought to the Finance and General

Refuse incineration Plant— Preliminary Expenses — Approved. T1354 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Purposes Committee of the Douglas go to our alternative sites. In the mean­ Corporation fast December as a suggestion while, on this resolution, unfortunately, we that we should have a site within the con­ are dealing with the expenditure of a cer­ fines of Douglas. Recommendations from tain amount of money so that we can pro­ their own officials said, “This is a suitable ceed with what we are doing at present, site at Groves Road and we should offer it insisting that the only way we can get rid to the Local Government Board", and we of this refuse is by incineration. And all I gladly accepted this offer from the Douglas am saying at this stage is, we will not be Corporation. If there is any pressure with­ the total arbiters as to where it will go. in Douglas that this must not be placed Douglas Corporation have it in their own in the site at Groves Road, it is out of our power to tell us where to go, they have hands. Douglas Corporation can say to us done it before on a lot of occasions. On tomorrow, “Sorry, you cannot have -this this one it is entirely up to them. site.” , full stop, and we go outside of Doug­ las to find a site.. It iis as simple as that. Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I am This is the problem. We are dealing with quite sure that for most members the ques­ problems that do not exist in our own tion of a refuse incineration plant is Court. We have sites which are available desirable both for environmental and — what have we done about it? All right, energy reasons. However, I would just like we have gone to experts. You can decry to get some clarification from you in rela­ the experts as much as you like. I said on tion to the position of the northern another subject what we should be doing parishes. I presume that the plant will be about our own problems with regard to built to cater for the refuse generated in submarine cables. You said, “ Let us go for the summer season, which is obviously some expert advice and let us pay them going to be greater because of the tourist £30,000 to do it.” You told me where to get trade. Is it the intention of the Board to off because I am not an expert. I am not insist that all local authorities use the an expert in this and I do not want the plant? Will it therefore be possible, as same thing to happen here, for somebody happens now, for the northern parishes to to say in three months’ .time, “ Let us go continue to tip if they feel lit is economic­ for an expert.” I am saying that after we ally viable to do so? have done all our homework, the experts have been told, "These are the sites which The Governor: Do you wish to reply, sir? are available to us. Come back and tell us which you feel is the most suitable site." Mr. Anderson: Yes, Your Excellency, in Now, I have no hesitation in saying — and answer to the hon, member for Ayre who again I will stick my neck out the same has just resumed her seat, that is actually as I will do with a submarine cable — at the position. That is actually the position the end of the day the experts will come at the moment unless the time comes when back and say, “The best site for you to they see that it is in their interests to use operate from is Groves Road.” The exoerts the plant. I am most grateful, as usual, to will say this regardless of what I say. When my hon. Vice-Chairman who has really they come back and say that the Douglas answered a great many of the problems, Corporation will then make their minds up. and I am not in any way denigrating the con­ We are not having it because we have stituents in South Douglas who are anxious, been told by the people we represent that probably they are, because nobody, unless it is not to go there. Never mind about the they have seen this, as I pointed out to my cost to us of taking the refuse further out. hon. colleague in my answer this morning, The ratepayers are not interested in that, could believe that, in fact, refuse could be they do not want it there, and full stop. dealt with in this way unless they have When that situation arrives, of course, we seen it themselves. And I am really

Refuse Incineration Plant— Preliminary Expenses — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1355 seriously thinking of some means whereby without getting some compensation in this I can get the Douglas members to one of way on the design of this building. So it Is these plants, and possibly some of the necessary to do just that. So I do not think Douglas Town Councillors, to go to see there is any way out of that one. these plants themselves. I think that we will try and arrange for that to be done A member: Who is going to operate it? because unless you have seen it yourself you will not be convinced by anything that either my Vice-Chairman or members of Mr. Anderson: The Local Government the Board will say. I again reiterate that Board will have to operate it, will supervise this is not actually finally decided. What we the operation of it, there is no doubt what­ are waiting for is the answer in relation to ever. That has never been in question. In the heat utilisation and the advice given, answer to Dr. Mann, I appreciate that if and we are not in any way inflexible as far we could get all the greenhouses and the as that is concerned. We are not going to producers of that sort in one area, this in any way ride roughshod or would wish to would be worthwhile. But the volume of impose on the people of the Pulrose area heat here is really so vast that they would any infliction whatever. I can assure the hon. not, possibly, take it up. You see, in re­ members for South Douglas of that. In spect of this particular site, so many people answer to the hon. member of Council, Mr. said, well, it is a five-day week, et cetera. Radcliffe, I had hoped that I had convinced Well, there are factories just right down the him that this was not just the plant. The valley from that and also the fire station plant is only part of the thing that works which costs £700 or £800 a month to heat inside this building. There is design, just across the river. There are so many there is the testing of soil for foundations, things that can be used in that area —; a lot of other things have got to be done Noble’s Hospital. In fact, they are telling before a design can be placed at this us that this, in fact, is the area where there stage. It is a Special Planning Committee can be the greatest utilisation. And, of again, this is an important part safeguard­ course, those factories normally are only ing the people of the area where a Special working a five-day week, the same as the Planning Committee will look at this com­ plant will be working. And again, in answer pletely afresh. They will have an initial to my hon. colleague in that respect, this hearing, they can have a review hearing, is a two-line system. The two-line system they can have an appeal hearing, and they means that if there is a breakdown one will have to be convinced. But we have line can continue to work, and one line got just to put what you will see in the way will probably be just used during the of photographs in the members' room, and winter-time when the other is being main­ I would ask hon. members who have not tained, and this is the beauty of it. It can looked at those photographs to see the handle the whole of the material during closeness of the facilities, the two houses the winter. I appreciate his point that the that we have seen, and the photograph biggest volume in the summer-time is going where Mr. Watson is standing in between to be there, but we have looked at this the houses and the buildings will illus­ and there is no way in which we are going trate the really very minimal impact that to convince ourselves that we are going to this has. And there is no way in which we store in any way. And there is no outside can get over this design cost. The com­ storage, it is all stored under cover, and pany which has actually been proposed there is a huge place which is something to deal with this, in our view, is the best like tipping it over that balcony in here, available. They have expended a lot of and some might say there is quite a money investigating on our behalf, but I parallel, but never mind. (Laughter.) It is am not prepared to go forward any further something like that, and there is a terrific

Refuse Incineration Plant — Preliminary Expenses— Approved. T1356 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 capacity to hold that material there. And Mr. Kermeen: Will there be any recovery if there is a breakdown on one of the of metal or glass? lines the other line continues to work so that there is no build-up there. That is one Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, it is pos­ of the difficulties with the present system sible to have a recovery of both metal and of pulverisation, there is some difficulty glass, but this again is quite a costly pro­ there. The power station in conjunction cess and, in fact, on the Island at the with that can utilise for generation pur­ moment — and I do not want to say too poses heat also. A lot of that can be much about this — this is becoming a worked in. There can be also a spin-off in problem even as far as the car-crushing is that it can have reserves which are re­ concerned because it now is not really a quired for hospital or other needs during worthwhile proposition to export the the times at the weekend when it would crushed cars off the Island. The business not be in production. There is a lot going has just dropped down so low. I think that for that site. But again I reiterate that my some of the hon. members of this Court Board are not 100 per cent, by any means, have had some experience of collecting or even 90 per cent, sold on that site, but waste paper and it got to be that the cost at the moment it looks the one that we of exporting was just not worthwhile. And, are seriously considering. As I say, in incidentally, this project was very substan­ answer to the hon. member, Mr. Kermeen, tial, and in most cases it was worked by we are hoping to get maybe a film that we two or three men, one man sitting in a can take. Mr. Ward, I did say to his hon. room where the environment is similar to colleague that we will try to get this film that of this room in which we are sitting, and show it in the Pulrose area, because with three television screens in front of again, I think that then the people will take him. He sees all that is going on and he a rather different point of view. I reiterate operates through a button system — a that I would in no way want to inflict any­ very, very sophisticated and very well thing that is going to be detrimental on proved system. And I really have every con­ them. As I say, the planning will be done fidence in recommending this to the hon. by the Special Planning Committee. All the Court and I can assure the hon. members facilities will be there to object. The that we will do all we can to alleviate any northern parishes I have dealt with. Mr. misgivings that they and those Councillors Moore, I thank him. I do not think there might have, who are still unconvinced that are any other problems. this can be done on that site. And I think when they have seen what we have seen Mr. Kermeen: How about the tipping of we hope to convince them. I beg to move. inert, non-combustible material? The Governor: I will put the resolution, Mr. Anderson: Well, it will still be re­ hon. members. Will those in favour please quired to do that, but it is only one-tenth, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. I 10 per cent, of the amount of material, and propose that the Court should adjourn for if we could get that going quickly it would 20 minutes for tea. mean that the facilities that we now have not only would not pollute the river, but in The Court adjourned for tea. fact they would last a lot of years more than they would do under the present system. So it is reduced very, very substantially indeed, and there is no question of sea­ WATER SUPPLY FOR FIRE FIGHTING, gulls or anything like that being interested BATTERY PIER, DOUGLAS — APPROVED. in it because it has been burnt up to a cinder, literally. The Governor: Item number 13. I call

Water Supply for Fire Fighting, Battery Pier, Douglas — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1357 upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of Government Board, Mr. Anderson. Agriculture and Fisheries, Dr. Mann.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— move:

That Tynwald approves of the provision That Tynwald— of a water supply for fire fighting pur­ poses at the Battery Pier, Douglas, by the (a) approves of the installation of a new Isle of Man Local Government Board at a flake ice plant at the Fishyard, Mill cost not exceeding £64,900. Road, Peel, at a cost not exceeding £60,354. (Reference: Item 28. page 12 of the Annual Estimates of the Government (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle Treasurer 1980/81). of Man to expend during the year ending 31st March 1981 from the A member: I beg to second. Capital Transactions Account a sum not exceeding £354 to meet the cost The Governor: Is that agreed? of the installation of the said ice plant, such sum to be additional to It was agreed. the sum of £60,000 authorised by Tynwald on the 27th May 1980 to defray the cost of such plant. FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE — PROVISION OF NEW SYSTEM (c) sanctions borrowings not exceeding — APPROVED. the sum of £354 made by Govern­ ment, such borrowings to be repaid The Governor: Item number 14. I call within a period of 15 years. upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Air­ ports Board, Mr. Nivison. (Reference: Item 7 under heading of Agriculture and Fisheries on page 10 of Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg to the Government Treasurer’s Capital Esti­ move:— mates 1980/81). That Tynwald approves the scheme to provide a new flight information system at A member: I beg to second. Ronaldsway Airport at a cost not exceed­ ing £15,000. The Governor: Is that agreed?

(Reference: Item 3 page 10 of the It was agreed. Annual Estimates of the Government Treasurer 1980/81.) CEREAL MARKET — INTERVENTION BUYING — APPROVED. A member: I beg to second.

The Governor: Is that agreed? The Governor: Item number 16, the Chairman of- the Isle of Man Board of It was agreed. Agriculture and Fisheries, Dr. Mann.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to INSTALLATION OF NEW ICE move: PLANT AT PEEL — APPROVED. WHEREAS urgent Government action The Governor: Item number 15, the is required to stabilise the local market

Flight Information Service — Provision of New System — Approved. — Installation of New Ice Plant at Peel — Approved. — Cereal Market — Intervention Buying — Approved. T1358 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

in cereals so as to ensure long term tervention arrangements for cereals, economic production and self-sufficiency such sums to be in addition to the in this sector of the agricultural industry sum voted on the 27th May 1980 to and other sectors dependent thereon. enable the Board to give effect to the services approved by Tynwald. AND WHEREAS by Resolution dated 21st February 1979 Tynwald affirmed that Members: Agreed. it be the policy of the Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to maintain Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I appreciate Government assistance to agriculture and the support of members because this is a fisheries on a basis similar to that from new departure in the agricultural field and time to time afforded to those industries I think it is worthy of some explanation. in the United Kingdom, irrespective of First of all, the Board has taken the view whether such assistance emanates from that the cereal sector is a good sector to United Kingdom or European Economic start in creating an Intervention arrange­ Community sources. ment. The Intervention is a national Inter­ vention, that is, it is independent of the AND WHEREAS Intervention arrange­ Intervention arrangements operated in the ments are an integral part of support European Economic Community member countries in general. I first mentioned this measures to the cereals sector of the agricultural industry in the United King­ scheme in the Estimates debate on 19th dom. March, which I am afraid has only just been printed, and the sequence of events AND WHEREAS the Board propose to that followed that while the Board was make intervention arrangements for mar­ working on the scheme was, to some ex­ keting home produced cereals which tent, hastened by the unfortunate decision shall involve expenditure not exceed­ of one of the major agricultural merchants ing £300 000 on cereals which it is esti­ to withdraw from cereal buying and storing. mated, on sale, will realise £270,000. It might appear, therefore, that this com­ pany’s precipitate move was, in fact, the AND WHEREAS the Board anticipate a reason for the introduction of this scheme. But, of course, the scheme and the prospective deficit not exceeding £30,000. arrangements were well advanced before we were aware of this failure by the com­ NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— pany to continue its operation. However, to (a) approves of the Isle of Man Board of meet the immediate requirements of the Agriculture and Fisheries implemen­ farming community to buy and store the ting Intervention arrangements for harvest of this year, we took immediate the marketing of home produced steps to ensure that the storage capacity cereals; and the technical know-how of the staff of this company became available to Govern­ (b) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle ment in these Intervention arrangements. of Man to apply from the current In carrying out those negotiations it may revenue of this Island, during the have given the impression to the agricul­ year ending 31st March 1981, a sum tural community and to other merchants not exceeding £30,000, being the that we were, in fact, discriminating against amount required by that Board, after the other merchants, and I would hasten deduction of the said estimated re­ at this point to say that this was an im­ ceipts of £270,000 to enable that pression and is not a fact. And I would like Board to expend an estimated sum to publicly acknowledge the help that the of £300,000, in the operation of In­ Board has received from the other mer­

Cereal Market — Intervention Buying— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1359

chants and, indeed, from the hon. mem­ quality standard will be similar to that ber for Middle, Mr. Arnold Callin, who, as applying to Intervention grain in the United members will probably be aware, of course, Kingdom and it is set out in the Appendix has spent many years of experience in to the explanatory memorandum circulated storage of cereals, and his advice was to members. It must be emphasised that appreciated by the Board. As recently as this minimum standard will be rigidly ap­ last Friday we had a meeting of all the plied by a Government inspector and only farming organisations and merchants and grain complying with it will be purchased we reached agreements on all of the lists by the Board. A grower wishing to sell of both costs and percentages that are in grain into Intervention will offer it to one the documents which should be on every­ of the agents who will advise him when body’s desks, or should have been this the grain can be accepted into the store morning. So there has been a complete and, if required, arrange for its collection. agreement on these arrangements between The grower will continue to be respon­ all the organisations and merchants. The sible for the grain until such time as it is advantages the Board see in this, apart delivered into the Intervention store and from the fact that we are fulfilling our the minimum quality standard will apply to obligation to the agricultural community the grain when it arrives at the store. The to give support measures to the industry, price at which the Board will purchase at least similar to those of the United King­ grain will -normally be the monthly price dom, is the fact that we will introduce with­ determined by the United Kingdom Inter­ in the Island a stability of price which will vention Board, but since this price is for be known and which will be announced in clean, dry grain delivered to a store at advance through the whole season round the grower's expense, there will be deduc­ to the next season, that those producing tions for haulage and cleaning and drying. cereals will know that the cereals will be There will also be bonus payments in re­ purchased and that they will be stored and spect of grain having a moisture content that they will be paid for. And an immedi­ of 15 per cent, or less. Details of the ate benefit to the farming community will deductions and bonuses are in the explan­ be the injection of cash, and increasing atory memorandum. Local agricultural mer­ the cash flow of the whole of the agricul­ chants and Laxey Glen Mills Limited will tural industry at a time of the year when be able to buy grain from Intervention in things usually get fairly difficult. It will also quantities of at least 20 tonnes. Farmers enable us in years to come to work with will not, however, be able to purchase the farming organisations and the mer­ grain direct from Intervention, but will con­ chants to, in fact, regularise and work to­ tinue to deal with the agricultural mer­ wards a policy of self-sufficiency within chants. The sale price will be the average the cereal sector. The Intervention arrange­ market price in the United Kingdom for ments will apply to barley and feed wheat the type of grain as determined by the only. The Intervention authority will be the Home Grown Cereals Authority, but it will Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. The not be permitted to fall below a floor price Board will not physically handle grain, how­ which will be the price at which the Board ever, but will appoint agents who will be will break even on the sale of the grain, local agricultural merchants having the taking into account the purchase price, necessary weighing, drying, cleaning and storage and administration charges and storage facilities. The Board will purchase notional interest. If necessary, the Board into Intervention barley and feed wheat will export grain from Intervention, and in offered to it by growers provided that such deciding whether to export account will be grain complies with the minimum quality taken of the amount of grain held in Inter­ and quantity standards. The minimum vention and the Island’s anticipated grain

Cereal Market — Intervention Buying — Approved. T1360 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

requirements, and the profitability of ex­ the National Farmers’ Union and the porting. It is presently estimated that the Agricultural Society to ensure that we all total cost of operating these arrangements work closely together in the future. This is will be In the order of £30,000, but it the first Intervention arrangement. I hope should be noted that this is an approximate it will Introduce into the agricultural figure. The actual cost will be dependent scene a new sense of involvement by Gov­ largely upon factors over which the Board ernment, a new sense of stability, and we has no control, for example, the size of the look forward to working together, and I harvest and the Intervention and market hope that all the members present in this prices for growing outside the Island. An Court today will show evidence of that sup­ Important factor in operating this arrange­ port by supporting this scheme. ment will be that we hope to stop what has happened in the past, namely, that some Mr. Walker: I beg to second. grain has been brought into merchants and sold, and then additional feed has Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I sup­ been imported later in the season. We are port it but I would like an assurance that working towards a state of affairs where every year we will get a report on how it in feed grains we should be self-sufficient. is operating, a full report with financial At the moment a fair amount of feed is details. still imported for various reasons, some of which is the relative standard of the The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to output of Laxey Glen Mills, for Instance, support the resolution and to warmly con­ and the apparent wish of some producers gratulate the Board on producing this par­ to use certain feeds which come from the ticular scheme. This is the first of the United Kingdom or from Northern Ireland. fruits, if you like, of the European We, on the Board, will, of course, have to Economic Community’s relationship that gain experience in the first year of opera­ agriculture was promised at the time of tion. We appreciate the help and assis­ the negotiation of the special relationship tance of the Finance Board in introducing with Europe. We were promised at that an arrangement of this magnitude quickly time as farmers that the Isle of Man, while and in excess of what the Board had esti­ paying nothing to Europe, would pick up mated in its original requirement. We will the ‘'tab” for responsibility for its own pro­ do our best to see that this arrangement duction and secure the livelihood of its works to the benefit of the agricultural farmers. It has taken so many years to community this year, and in ensuing years reach this stage. The first steps were I hope we will ensure that most of our achieved by the Board’s predecessors who home production is turned into feed that got the Court to agree to the overall prin­ will be used by producers and is accept­ ciple of equality, and I warmly welcome able to producers. The Laxey Glen Mills this step by the Board which, for the first will operate separate from this arrange­ time, recognises that the Manx farmer is ment. The Board itself will physically entitled to the same return for his produc­ possess all the grain held in the Interven­ tion as his United Kingdom counterpart. tion store and it will sell out to Laxey as There has always been a deduction in the it is required. I think the fact that the past on the sale price in the Island to meet Board will handle this, as distinct from the cost of shipment. This is not so in the the Mill, should introduce, I hope, an ele­ Intervention programme here. But equally ment of confidence which seems to be I welcome this because it is going to be a missing, or has been missing in previous godsend to so many people in this Island years. But I hope to work with Laxey Glen who have been worried stiff because of the Mills and with the cereal committees of threat that there was going to be no

Cereal Market— Intervention Buying — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1361 market for their grain and no money for are owed. I do again congratulate the their grain, and against a background of Board on producing the first Intervention substantial overdrafts, high interest rates, scheme that this Island has witnessed, and this was, in fact, the threat of ruin. So this I hope it will be the predecessor of many represents a lifeline to those people, and a more like it. lifeline which should have been in opera­ tion many years ago. However, we have Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, as a non­ achieved it in this field at last and I hope agriculturalist I must congratulate also the that in the running and operation of it it Board on producing an Intervention will prove to be very successful. I would scheme of this nature. Quite objectively, I ask two questions in relation to it. In item see the benefit both to the. Board and to 2(3) there is the question of purchase by the agricultural community in this scheme. agencies. It provides for agencies who are I do particularly note what the hon. Chair­ offered grain to say, “We are over-full so man said about quality control and I am far as our storage capacity is concerned sure that the agricultural community itself at the present moment, we would ask you will appreciate that it will not be in its best to make your offer to another agency." interests to submit rubbish to the scheme. Now, the agencies in the Isle of Man are The second point is a point of quantity very limited in number and the capacity control, and I wondered If the hon. Chair­ for throughput is, again, I would say, ques­ man could explain in so far as, hopefully, tionable when dealing with an augmented there will be a surplus over and above the crop this year because I believe the needs of the Island itself and that there «creage of cereals is up. And what I would will be some way of ascertaining the con­ ask the hon. Chairman to assure me on is tinuance of a good export market for that that no matter whether agents experience surplus. difficulty or not, the market will be assured through one agency or another. In other Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I, too, con­ words, you will not be shunted around and gratulate Dr. Mann and his Board as I be unable to find an agency to take your think this is a great step forward. I am not product at the end of the day. I am sure a farmer, by the way, but item 2(3) that that the hon. Chairman will be able to re­ the hon. Mr. Speaker was talking about, assure me on that point. The other item, “A grower who wishes to sell grain into and the only other point I would make in Intervention will offer it to one of the relation to it, is in respect of payment. I agents appointed by the Board. Grain must think it is absolutely essential here that not normally be offered for sale before it though delays may be experienced at has been harvested.” I think that is going harvest-time in getting your grain to the to be a hard thing to do because a farmer, drier — and this can take a considerable when he harvests his grain, likes to get it time — nevertheless, as soon as it has away that day or the day afterwards, and gone into, shall I say, the Government I cannot see how this is going to work. It machine, payment must be prompt. Pay­ is wishful thinking. But I am quite happy. ment by Government is not always prompt. It can be delayed for a considerable time Mr. J. N. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I with the consequent repercussions through­ must vote for this scheme, of course, be­ out the industry, and I would like an cause it is the only thing which is going to assurance that payments will be, in fact, help the agricultural community with their made promptly so that when the 12th grain crop and the problems this year. One November comes and the end of the farm­ or two comments though are called for, ing year arrives there will be money in the and I think one of the points is the timing “ kitty” to pay the rents and the debts that of the issue of this memorandum. One just

Cereal Market — Intervention Buying— Approved. T1362 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 cannot study the scheme properly In an early versus the late harvest or the coming hour or two and, indeed, it is only a per­ in of the grain will go? Do you intend to functory glance through that one has had shut the door completely when the stores time to give it. The points which imme­ are full and say, “ Right, you have had it. diately sprang to the eye were the mention You can do what you like, we cannot of the Government inspector and his role handle it” ? It is one which is bothering in the testing for moisture, and so on. some farmers who are in Mr. Speaker’s The physical fact is that that inspector will area which is a slightly later one, in Maug- be required almost at the same time both hold, and others who are perhaps in the lee in Douglas and Ramsey. Grain comes in of the hills and do not get the sun and from all sides of the Island. If he is the the drying wind the same as the others. I only one who is going to take a sample of just hope the late man is not to be penal­ the . grain and confirm the moisture con­ ised. But, Your Excellency, the biggest tent, how on earth is he going to do it? point of all is the worry about the future. And, also there is the fact that grain drying This rushed scheme, and it has been a goes on Into the night and normally — rushed scheme it would appear this time, although under this scheme things may be is all very well but farmers, as I said different — loads are coming into the drier earlier on today, must plan ahead and if quite late on in the day, and I cannot they are committed it is not so easy to really see the Board of Agriculture's in­ alter a cropping programme and I would spector being on hand at eight or nine ask the Chairman to assure me and the o'clock in the evening. The next point industry as to whether there is any lead which I picked on again, and it follows on being given for another year? Is It 100 what Mr. Speaker has already said, and per cent, certain that this will be an on­ that is the actual payment out by Central going thing or will it be just this year, a Government, and I would reiterate Mr. sort of a rushed job after long and pro­ Speaker’s point that it should not be very tracted talks with the Finance Board? I long, it should not be held back, as I would like to add, finally, Your Excellency, understand some of the value added tax that my comments are made without bias. payments are being held back, some of I have no interest in grain crops. them, I understand, as long as 2J to three months, and this will put a further added IWr. Quirk: Just a few words, Your Ex­ and very great strain on agricultural fin­ cellency. I, too, would like to personally ances if this should turn out to be the compliment the Chairman of my Board on case. I do hope that the payments will be getting this on the way. This is not a processed very, very quickly. 7(1) — I am new scheme by any means. In other just running through them. As I say, a countries it is something that has hap­ quick glance was all I had a chance to do. pened before but it is at least something On item 8(1), the amount of grain to be which will give a thought to the price of purchased, will there come a period of cereals on the Isle of Man. There will be time when the Board will say, intervention a lot of practical difficulties which I think is now complete, we have all we can we, as we go along through this scheme handle, we will take no more into inter­ this year, will be able to put right and I vention? There are farms in all different am sure that next year we will be able to parts of the Island with different growing have a scheme which is almost, shall we conditions and it does happen that a say, perfect or at least as perfect as we person will be finished the harvest in one can make It. I thought I had better get on area and another one will be just begin­ to my feet to answer one particular ques­ ning in another area. There can be as much tion that came from the hon, member for as three weeks to a month between the Middle. As a farmer, I think it is better for handling of the harvest. I wonder how the me to answer this question rather than my

Cereal Market— Intervention Buying— Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1363

Chairman who is not a farmer, and that Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I only just concerns the booking of grain before it wanted to say that I hope that either weigh­ is actually harvested. This sometimes does bridges will be supplied or otherwise the happen and I hope that this will be some­ vehicles will be calibrated, as in the past thing that farmers will help us with to there have been certain difficulties when get into a stream that we are going to pro­ the grain has been sent to Laxey Mills. vide a regular flow into the machinery but it does happen that somebody will try to The Governor: Do you wish to reply, hon. jump the gun, and that is why I am on my member? feet, just saying as a farmer that we are not all perfect — I am not perfect either Dr. Mann: Thank you, Your Excellency. I — but I hope that we will get a situation thank members for their support in this pro­ where farmers will co-operate with us really posal. First, I would like to get over a point fully to make this a success this year and which was made far earlier in the day by in the following years as well. the hon. Vice-Chairman of the Finance Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I hope Board about recession. Now there is a lot that every member of Tynwald Court will said in the agricultural world in England support this resolution because it is a god­ and in Europe about agricultural recession. send as far as the agricultural community Now this can be psychological if we are not is concerned. There are certain aspects of careful and there is no reason for there the arrangements which we have just re­ being any immediate recession here in ceived today which perhaps will come as the Island as long as we look after the in­ a shock to some of the farming community, dustry correctly. As long as we ensure particularly in relation to costs for drying, that the producers can produce and get and so on, but I think they must accept that an adequate return for their production there will be a slightly bitter taste to the there is no fear of creating mountains of pill which is going to prove a relief to the produce. There is a physical limit to the farming headache. There is one point mountains of produce anyway as far as which I feel I would like to ask the Chair­ grain is concerned at this sort of quality, man in relation to the arrangements. I there is a definite limit, and while we are understand that the merchants, in their working to provide our own self-sufficiency capacity as merchants and not as agents, we cannot go into a recession, so I appeal will be using the same scale of charges to the farmers not to get depressed by all as are laid down in the intervention these stories of recession. We are not arrangements and that the merchants, as going to cut back milk production because agents, will be using their vehicles for we need to increase it at the moment. We haulage at these charges. Is there any are not going to cut down grain production danger that farmers who will use their own because we need to produce it while we haulage will not be given their order in can use it and as long as we can get a the queue, as it were, because the mer­ sure base for this sort of production then chants are not providing the haulage them­ we can work on the other sectors and work selves? I feel that this may be something towards self-sufficiency as well. So we which the farming community may fear, have plenty of room for a limited extent of that if they are, in fact, providing their own optimism as distinct from pessimism. As haulage because they do not live too far far as the details of this arrangement are away from the drier and can do it more concerned, and after all this arrangement economically themselves, they may not does not form part of the resolution, the be given the opportunity to use the drier resolution is the request for the money to when they wish to put grain into Interven­ operate it, this is an arrangement which is tion. agreed with everybody concerned. As far

Cereal Market— Intervention Buying— Approved. T1364 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 as delivery to the agents is concerned, we and equal to the Intervention scheme in do not visualise having to turn anybody the United Kingdom. If we are going to away. If v/e reach a stage where we have provide for the Manx producer the equiva­ such a problem then, of course, we would lent return that he would get in the United have to export some to make room for Kingdom then I think it is only responsible some and as long as we are holding, in our of those producers to produce the quality own estimation, enough cereals for the use that we require and one of the reasons of the Island for the coming year, then we why the produce of Laxey Mill is open to are fulfilling our duty to the Manx com­ question, or has been open to question in munity. As far as payment to producers the past, is because of the wide variation is concerned, we intend to pay to pro­ of quality of the produce that is brought ducers directly. We are not paying to pro­ into them and so we will be working with ducers through the merchants. The mer­ the interested organsations to maintain and chants will never at any time physically improve this quality in the coming season possess this grain. They are only handling so that we can have a toward look, a long­ it as agents of the Board. So two separate term policy as well as a short-term policy. payments will be made by the Board, one Now it is true that there would be an direct to the producer and one direct to ultimate quantitative limit, but within the the merchant — to the merchant for the Island I think it is true to say that if we agency fee and to the producer direct for insist on a high quality there will, of neces­ the produce. We have managed to get a sity, be a quantitative restriction because provisional copy of the prices for the next the ability to produce that quality on the 12 months which goes into July 1981 which Island is limited by factors beyond pro­ will be available shortly assuming it is con­ ducers’ control, the quality of the soil, et firmed, and it will show the extent of the cetera, in various parts of the Island, and support right through to next July which in any case we should be continuing nego­ gives everybody a chance of looking for­ tiations with the cereal growing committees ward as to what time to send into Inter­ to ensure that we work together to pro­ vention. It may pay some producers to duce a long term plan. As far as the role store for a while and then come in later. of the inspector is concerned, we do not We expect to have the market played consider increasing the staff of the depart­ against this to some extent, but this is ment, nor do we consider working the in­ what the scheme is all about. We must in spector to death. We are paying the mer­ the middle be the stable factor. We have chants who have the expertise over the achieved quite a lot of support in the past years of taking cereals into store. We will few months from the Finance Board in allow them to do the primary testing. If speeding up the payments to producers for there is any question raised by either the a variety of subsidies, and so on, and even merchant or the producer then the inspec­ up to the last few weeks we have now re­ tor will be present at a test. We cannot duced the delay, I think, to not more than physically have an inspector there at every a fortnight, which I think is pretty good delivery of grain. The scale of charges, going considering that at the beginning of inevitably, if we have agreed a scale of the year it was nearly three months behind, charges with the merchants, inevitably the not, I might add, due to the Finance Board, merchants will apply those charges in their but to other factors. So, in fact, the speed own business and inevitably I should think with which payments are being made from Laxey Mill will do the same. They are the Treasury are now very much better. As agreed between the parties concerned. far as the quality and quantity control are There was quite a lot of horse-trading, I concerned, we have insisted that there is a think Mr. Callin would agree, in reaching rigid quality control which is consistent these charges but they were agreed by

Cereal Market — Intervention Buying — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1365

everybody and I see no reason why there Manx Electric Cars at a cost not ex­ should be any discrimination against pro­ ceeding £30,000. ducer:; bringing in short haul quantities be­ (Reference: Item 5, Railways page 13, cause it is the short haul quantities that, Annual Estimates of the Government in fact, the merchants do not want to Treasurer 1980/81). handle anyway, so there will be no dis­ crimination. All we write into the arrange­ (2) The purchase and Ins'.aiiaiion of rails ment is that it is by prior arrangement and sleepers on the Steam Railway with the merchants and we hope that the at a cost not exceeding £30,000. producers will honour those prior arrange­ ments so that the producer arrives on time (Reference: Item 8, Railways page when the merchant can accept. Now the 13, Annual Estimates of the Govern­ hon. member for Ayre said this scheme ment Treasurer 1980/81). has been rushed, which I think is slightly unkind because if we had not produced it (3) The repairs to Sub-siations on the he would have been slating us. We have Manx Electric Railway at a cost not produced it and I thank the members of exceeding £15,000. my staff sitting here at the moment who have put in many hours of work, who have (Reference: Item 6, Railways page maintained a continuous liaison with the 13, Annual Estimates of the Govern­ Intervention authorities in the United King­ ment Treasurer 1980/81). dom and have done, I think, a first-class This motion consists of three parts, hon. job in producing this at very short notice members will see. The first part regarding to an industry that was crying out for the re-equipping of the Douglas Manx something to be done before they started Electric cars, when it says Douglas, this putting the harvesters on the field. means the cars which operate on the Dou­ glas/Ramsey route as opposed to those The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. which are different gauge going from Laxey members? to Snaefell. This is part of an on-going pro­ gramme of modernisation and improving It was agreed. the standards which, of course, has been going on for the last three years and, of course, it has greatly reduced the break­ downs and improved the service and the ISLE OF MAN RAILWAYS — economics of the service. The second item EQUIPMENT FOR DOUGLAS MANX relates to the Steam Railway rails and ELECTRIC CARS, STEAM RAILWAY sleepers. This is another part of the money AND MANX ELECTRIC RAILWAY — required for purchase which was approved APPROVED. in terms of the report which was accepted from the Steering Committee which we The Governor: Item number 17 we have have had to stick to completely in our ope­ dealt with. Item number 18, I call upon the rations. Next year should see the final allo­ Chairman of the Manx Electric Railway. cation for this sum. The third item, the sub­ station improvements are required as the Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I beg to type of equipment, some of it dates back to move :— 1904, and really it is quite valuable. In fact, museums are asking us not to dispose of That Tynwald approves— it but to let them have it because it is so out-of-date. The sub-station improvements (1) The re-equipping of the Douglas are required as the equipment is no longer

Isle of Man Railways — Equipment for Douglas Manx Electric Cars, Steam Railway and Manx Electric Railway — Approved. T1366 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 produced and we are modifying the sub­ Board, to hear all these complaints at the stations in co-operation with the Electricity end of the season, but we want to talk suc­ Board to give a more efficient use and the cess in the meantime. possible saving of electricity.

Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could Mr. Craine: I beg to second and reserve I support what the Chairman of the Tourist my remarks. Board has just said, because I know we have this bit of nonsense about not telling The Speaker: Your Excellency, while I anybody anything but, in fact, May and support the resolution, I was intent on find­ June this year, that is the season starting ing really what was implied by the resolu­ 1st May, by sea we are 13,000 staying tion and at the same time I would ask the visitors up. Now people say, “ Where are hon. Chairman if he would indicate that in they going to?” Well, I do not know, but respect of the line which was in question in they are coming in and we are getting paid the past, namely, the Laxey/Ramsey line for them coming in. which I would take it is involved in these estimates, whether he would indicate whether that line is maintaining its popu­ Mr. Irving: They are going to the good larity despite the decline in numbers at houses, that is where they are going. this part of the season? Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I think Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I would like the only question really was Mr. Speaker’s. to support the maintenance of these im­ Bearing in mind the very good advice given portant tourist attractions. I think we should by my hon. friend, Mr. Irving, I would do everything we can at the moment to merely say this, that of course the numbers preserve the attractions we have got and have been somewhat reduced and, of even create more because we are now in course, we have felt that. In the circum­ an age where it seems to be popular stances we are doing very well. But the amongst a lot of people to denigrate tour­ Laxey/Ramsey line has hardly been re­ ism in the Isle of Man. I think it is a great duced at all. It has kept up the numbers pity, of course, and I am speaking in far better than the rest of the line. Snae- relation to tourist attractions, that certain fell, of course, has suffered because the people in this Island should, before the weather has been so bad, obviously. In season has even started, talk about a dis­ June there was hardly a day when it was aster season which was broadcast on the fit to go up Snaefell. We were very fortu­ B.B.C., Border, Granada, and so on, and nate it cleared up so nicely for us on Sun­ in the United Kingdom papers. I think day when we had the V.I.P.’s over, and I those people who shout now, instead of must say this again, when we had the waiting until the season is over, are going V.I.P.’s here for Tynwald, the same as all to do an enormous amount of damage and the V.I.P.’s we had over here last year for I believe that nothing inhibits success like Millennium, what did we do with them? We the smell of failure which they are creat­ put them on the Steam Railway and the ing and I hope hon. members of this Court Manx Electric Railway, so we kept them will agree that this is only making things amused as well as the tourists. much more difficult for persons engaged in tourism in an Island which depends on The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. tourism. If people are going to start shout­ members? ing now that tourism in the Island Is a failure it will deter people from coming here. We are quite willing, on the Tourist It was agreed.

Isle of Man Railways — Equipment for Douglas Manx Electric Cars, Steam Railway and Manx Electric Railway — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1367

CONSTRUCTION OF GARAGE this year. We would be very lucky indeed to ACCOMMODATION FOR NATIONAL get garage premises built, in fact, for this TRANSPORT LTD. — APPROVED. sum but at the moment what we require, well, I would tell my hon. friend, Mr. Lowey, The Governor: Item number 19, the that our chief executive went across a Chairman of National Transport Limited. week or two ago to make enquiries and to look at other garages, and in his report Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, I beg to back to us he said, “ It was found that Mid­ m o ve :— land Red had recently built a repair and service depot for 80 vehicles at Cannock.” That Tynwald approves of the construc­ — and we have 80 buses, so this should tion by National Transport Ltd., on be a similar type of thing — “After discus­ land at Douglas Railway Station, of garage sions on the layout of this and other repair accommodation at a cost not exceeding depots at Birmingham, an existing depot, £455,620. both were visited and the costs were dis­ cussed, when I was advised that the (Reference: Item 12(a), Executive Gov­ Cannock depot cost £1,250,000 and that ernment, page 10 of the Annual Estimates currently this has been re-costed at over of the Government Treasurer 1980/81). £1,500,000 at current prices.” We then had a preliminary talk with Ove Arup who This relates to the provision of new started to talk in the region of £5 million, garage accommodation for our buses. As so we quickly withdrew from that.” What you know, this previously has been an item we really need at the moment is £80,000 of which was included in Executive Govern­ this sum and we can then start to do the ment and was in the Government Estimates foundation work and also there was a in the Rink Book this year. The situation is possibility some weeks ago that we might that we have to get new garage accommo­ have been able to obtain a moveable steel dation. We have the two garages at York Road and Holmfield, one taken over from frame building which was in England, was the Corporation and one from the Road available for sale, and which we could Services ■ Company but, of course, these have got at a very cheap price, and so at are both leased and the leases in each least if the vote is approved we would case run out next year and it is very late in then, with the approval or subject to the the day as it is now really. As you know we supervision of the Finance Board, be able, only took over the bus services at the be­ if the opportunity came along, to purchase ginning of April. We are trying to sort out something like this which might, of course, exactly what the bus requirements for the in the long run effect very considerable Island in the long term are, in the first savings. Apart from that, of course, this is place, but it is perfectly obvious that vast a very good time anyway to buy steel be­ improvements are needed in the mainte­ cause there is a situation in the United nance facilities which are available. Kingdom at the present time, steel is avail­ Neither of the present buildings could be able, we are informed, at very reasonable really suitable in the long term even if it market prices so what we are really looking was possible for us to get an extension of for is confirmation of this amount which, as lease, in one case, or to purchase in the I said, was really worked out just on a other, and the amount of money that is men­ square footage basis in the most general tioned in this motion was the recommen­ terms by our predecessors, which obviously dation just on a footage basis really which is the very least, it would seem, that we was submitted by our predecessors, the could hope to build a depot for but, of previous directors of National Transport, course, if we find we could do it cheaper to the Finance Board at the beginning of by buying a second-hand building like this,

Construction of Garage Accommodation for National Transport Ltd. — Approved. T1368 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

and so on, we will make every effort, I to reflect the Court’s mind back to four can assure you, to keep the cost to a years ago when I moved a resolution in minimum. this Court in reference to the National Bus Company at that time and that was to put Mr. Craine: I beg to second, Your Excel­ two members of this Court on that particu­ lency. lar body. I was half successful. An amend­ ment was put forward to reduce my two to Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, in sup­ one, and I hope the hon. member reflects porting this entirely because I think back on the situation that that particular National Transport have got to have some­ amendment to my resolution has caused where to put the buses, one thing I would this. I said in that debate, sir, that the like to draw to the attention of the Court is time would come when all transport would the fact that, unlike most Continental coun­ be under the auspices of the Government, tries, we have appeared to stick our bus and that was natural, but what a mess we depots, in the past, in the middle of the find ourselves in because would it not be a town and I am only hoping that once they true Irish situation to buy a bus company get into the railway station it will only be and have nowhere to park them? Is it not the picking up and dropping off buses that ludicrous that we find ourselves, and so will be stationary anyway and then only for many businessmen in this Court, find our­ a limited period of time. I know the Joint selves negotiating now to buy and build Transport Board fully appreciates this situa­ garages and yet we have already bought tion but I want to draw to the attention of the buses? It seems quite ludicrous. the Court the situation that is developing in Peveril Square, on to the Promenade, Mr. Crellin: The Steering Committee told coming in along North Quay in Douglas, Tynwald that. 'and the area around the present bus station. This is getting worse and worse all the time. It is becoming very, very con­ Mr. Delaney: They told them, but nobody gested and, in fact, it is becoming almost seemed to listen. Yet it was obvious, it was impossible to control. Now this is not, as as if you had it in front of your face what some of the press say, hoards of lorries was going to happen, it was happening coming into the Island because at the most under our noses, but now we have come you get 16 lorries on one boat so on an to the position where this sort of money, average day there are 32 outside lorries. taxpayers’ money, will be put out, and It Is our own lorries, Manx lorries, that ap­ really we should have got the whole lot pear to be parking all over the place, all originally, the bus depots, the buses, every over the Island. It is our own transport stick of furniture in the place, what we are that is increasing, cars in very large num­ talking about now, but no. The business bers scattered all about the town, and I people of the Island saw the opportunity, hope that once National Transport gets the and rightly so, and we were led up the chance to get on and shift their buses we bridle path. (Laughter.) And I mean that will then, and maybe the Transport Steer­ because it is getting to the situation where ing Committee can do this, have a very Douglas horse trams will be the next we close look at that area all around the pre­ will be looking at because already, I will sent bus station and the entire area of not mention which Board, we are getting access to and egress from the harbour bills from them because they, in Douglas area of Douglas because it is becoming Corporation, could not see the forest for completely and utterly jammed up. the trees or the bridleforthe reins, put itthat way, because they were saying for years Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am obvi­ they were making profits but what they ously going to support this but I would like could not understand was, sir, that the

Construction of Garage Accommodation for National Transport Ltd. — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1369

overheads for running the horse trams had who, I understand, have a surplus building? been carried by the bus company when It was purchased by the Electricity Board, they were running the buses and now they not in use, and possibly might serve the wonder where the money has gone to. They purpose that you are looking for. have to have a manager, they have to have a secretary, just to run a few horses up Mr. Lowey: Very briefly, Your Excellency, and down the promenade when we have I rise as someone who shouted for informa­ already got the facilities in the National tion at the start, to assure the hon. Chair­ Transport to run them. The situation is, sir, man of National Transport that I will be after saying four years ago that this day supporting his resolution and I congratu­ would come, the day will come when Dou­ late him on his usual lucid answers to glas horse trams will be run by the Gov­ the queries that were raised. £J million to ernment as well because it is there in front the taxpayer seems a lot of money for a of you. They are going to have to be garage. It needs to be explained that a moved off the Central Promenade for safety garage for 80 buses needs service areas, reasons, and who is going to foot the bill pits, hoists and all the things that go with for that? The Government is going to foot it. I appreciate that. I think we ought to the bill because the horse trams have to get it on record, when we are asking for be moved off the Central Promenade for £J million of taxpayers’ money, that the safety reasons and anyone who thinks that Chairman and his Board, who I congratu­ is not going to be near in the future is late on running the trains in a workman­ quite wrong and we are going to foot the like way, and they are a growing asset to bill, the taxpayers, because Douglas Cor­ the tourist industry and I am sure they will poration just cannot afford to do it. So make a good job of this as well. you might as well start looking now, Mr. Chairman, for somewhere to stable your horses as well. (Laughter.) Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I think it should be made quite clear that I, as Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, when Chairman of the Steering Committee, when Tynwald Court discussed taking over this we did buy or negotiate the takeover of National Transport and the buses, I think both bus companies, one from the Road there were one or two comments made Services and the other from the Douglas that the only people who would be enjoy­ Corporation, they said under no circum­ ing themselves would be the directors who stances would they part with the garages would be laughing all the way to the bank concerned. Both wanted to keep their own when they got rid of it. I wonder if the garages and we only had this on lease. It Chairman of the National Transport Board was known and we told the Railway Board at the present moment, realising he is not that subsequently they would want garages long in this situation, would be able to in­ and we would help them all we could to form us what the deficiency was on these get them and we thought that the Railway buses last year? Would I be right in esti­ Yard was probably the place where it might mating it was somewhere about £200,000? take place. I want to say, arising out of And the other point, now that we have got what the Chairman of the Finance Board this figure down for a building, and I ap­ has stated about deficiency, quite recently preciate we must do something about hous­ we have had some very distinguished dele­ ing these buses somewhere and possibly gates over from many parts during Tynwald having them serviced properly, if we are and I spoke to Mr. Sean Moore who is a going to cut down deficiency at all in very knowledgeable man on the transport servicing, would it be possible for you to in the Republic of Ireland. The railway still give consideration to trying to nego­ company in the Republic of Ireland is sub­ tiate with the Isle of Man Electricity Board sidised to the extent of £40 million a year,

Construction of Garage Accommodation for National Transport Ltd. — Approved. T1370 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 the railway company in Southern Ireland. Mr. Christian: I would just say this very So far as road transport is concerned, all quickly, Your Excellency, if my hon. friend, old age pensioners are conveyed free of Mr. Delaney, wants us to take over the charge anywhere they like within the horse trams he might like my resignation Republic of Ireland. Even if they go to now. (Laughter.) Northern Ireland they get conveyed for nothing to the border and then they have to The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. pay in Northern Ireland and he did advise members? that the payment for this was not borne by the bus company but was provided by It was agreed. what we would call our Board of Social Security who, in turn, paid the Transport Board for the conveyance. So all I want to say, Your Excellency, it is a problem in FIRST INTERIM REPORT OF COMMITTEE every country and I believe that we are APPOINTED TO REVISE ADVOCATES’ tackling the problem the right way. I agree FEES ADOPTED. with the Chairman of the Tourist Board. These two, the Steam Railway and the The Governor: Item number 20, the hon. Electric Railway are looked upon as un­ Mr. Speaker. doubted tourist assets. As far as the bus company is concerned, even though it does The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to cost us in excess of £200,000 a year it is move :— an absolute essential for those people who have not got motor-cars, for the school Thai the First Interim Report of the children who have to be conveyed, and for Committee appointed to revise advocates’ certain surplus traffic in the summer-time fees be and the same is hereby adopted. and really we are doing it comparatively cheaply. I would point out to the hon. Court that you entrusted a remit to us in March of Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I rise to sup­ this year in keeping with clause 4 of the port the resolution because I do believe Advocates’ Fees Act of 1874, and when we they need a garage badly. When you go came to look at the responsibility entrusted down Lord Street now and see all those to us it was quite obvious that to look at buses parked there, I suppose they are the scales of fees in isolation was not there all night. But one reason why I have enough. We have been very, very con­ got to my feet, Your Excellency, is the scious indeed of other factors which are, efficient running of the bus company. We shall I say, important now in relation to have tried to encourage people to use the the whole of the range of conveyancing buses. I know people who commute from and the provision of legal services and Jurby to Ramsey in the morning, the shop those of you who were in the Court in assistants there, and they arrive in Ramsey 1969 may well recall that we had a Land at 9-20 some mornings and the drivers do Registration Commission at that time not seem to care that they are 20 minutes which recommended a radical change in late getting to work and that goes on in the procedure of passing titles of pro­ the north of the Island. I know that goes perties and it was envisaged at that time on in the north of the Island, that is the that we should start with an area adjacent Andreas bus and the Jurby bus in the to Douglas and extend this throughout the morning. Quite often they are 20 minutes Island and provide a stable basis of con­ late and the conductors or drivers do not veyancing and a cheap basis of conveyan­ care but I would like to see the Chairman cing in the Island. However, for reasons tighten that up. that I have not been able to get clear in

First Interim Report of Committee Appointed to Revise Advocates’ Fees Adopted.

I. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1371

my mind, only the costs of that scheme General Registry if that scheme was now were portrayed fully to the Court. The in progress, so I do hope that you will benefits and the revenue that could come give this Committee this extended power from that scheme were very carefully sub­ and I hope we will make some consider­ dued and, in consequence, the whole thing able progress towards removing a burden fell. But, Your Excellency, my Committee which I know every house purchaser has feel that this is one of the items that may got at the present. well be looked at at the present time. They also feel that with the example of Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, I would conveyancing fees being abolished in just like to make a point. Whilst supporting England and Wales we, too, must look at this recommendation for the extension of this situation in the Isle of Man and, in the terms of reference of this Committee, general, we are seeking really your I notice that the recommendation says, to authority to do a good job on this parti­ consider matters incidental to the pro­ cular issue and not to hold us tightly to vision of legal services to the public, and the provisions of the 1874 Act which I wonder whether the Committee would merely in themselves say, look at the fees care to consider in its new remit the and revise them according to the day and particular subject, the nasty practice, as age in which we live. We feel that much I would refer to it, of gazumping, which is more has to be done in this respect. We frequently causing many young couples have got to think about procedures, waste­ who are looking for houses a great deal ful procedures, hon. members, in our of heartache and expense? This is courts today, and in looking at this particularly in consideration of the lower question we have had the undoubted bene­ priced houses. In the United Kingdom in fit of the presence of the hon. member for 1975 the Law Commission reviewed the Ramsey who has legal knowledge and we contract procedure which can affect this say to you today, please give us more and came to the conclusion that no authority so that, in turn, we may give you change in practice was necessary and a report on what we believe should be they apparently ignored the examples done in the Island to ensure for the Manx of other countries where things are people the best possible legal system. done differently and gazumping does not exist. Regrettably, it does exist Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, in here in the Isle of Man and we too have seconding the motion, and I suppose I am taken no action as far as I can see. If I the only survivor as an adviser to that could just quote you America which seems Land Registration Commission of 11 years a reasonable model. The practice varies ago, I would point out that that was a a bit from State to State over there but, Commission of some considerable quality basically, the buyer and the seller agree as far as the members of this hon. Court a price, a deposit is handed over and the were concerned. (Interruption.) Not me, buyer is given a certain length of time in Mr. William Quayle, and we also had the which to sort his finances out and the advice of a senior member of the Bar, Mr. period of grace can range from 10 days to, William Cain. It is a great pity, and I say say, four months but, in practice, it usually that advisedly, because of the burden on runs just under two months and in that the house owners or house purchasers period of time if he fails to come up with that we did not get any progress on the the money, up with the goods, the agree­ Land Registration Title Scheme and, ment is dissolved and the seller is free incidentally, at the time when we have to seek other offers after that period of been considering the pressure on space time and depending on the original agree­ next door, I am sure that there would not ment the deposit can be made either have been the demand for space from the refundable or is forfeited to cover the

First Interim Report of Committee Appointed to Revise Advocates’ Fees Adopted. T1372 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

vendor’s additional costs in advertising Isle of Man to fall back on the tired and and legal fees and the like, but what it old explanation that we have always done does mean is that within the option period it this way and I look forward to the Com­ no-one can step in past the buyer, offer mittee looking into the system in detail more money and “bag” the property, and would recommend, perhaps, that they while the original purchaser is struggling should also look at the method of forming to raise the mortgage or trying to sort contracts and exchanging them for pur­ some of his other affairs out. I also under­ chase of houses to save time and money stand in the States, Connecticut is one in that field also. example, that it is the seller's responsi­ bility to pay for an independent certified The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, survey on his property which can be made before the Chairman replies to that, sir, available to all the potential buyers and I hope that the member who has spoken this saves not only time but the waste­ at some length would be kind enough to fulness of conducting two, three, four put that into writing, which I am sure the surveys. This does happen, as all mem­ Chairman and members of the Committee bers know here, where the Treasury or would be glad to receive, or indeed for the Local Government Board is called to him to come and give evidence to us. look at a house more than once during the period of time it is for sale. And in The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, America again, the conveyancing can be I would like to make a few comments on completed in a matter of hours which this matter. First of all, I would urge any keeps the costs considerably down member of this Court, and particularly because the process is speeded up members of the Committee, who are because the land and property descriptions interested in this problem to refer to the are a matter of public record freely avail­ Report of the Royal Commission on Legal able at the county courthouse and also Services which reported in 1979, which is because computerisation is widely used known as the Benson Report. Now this in the recording system and the contract report which, in fact, is in the library in system is done through an agent called this building, does provide a lot, I think, an escrow agent which enables the dates of the answers to the questions which to be carefully worked out, his fees tend people inevitably ask and I am sure that to be lower than the lawyers, and the it will help the Committee and help mem­ system prevents this thing that we have bers of this Court immensely if reference sometimes of advocates shuffling about is made to this report. It was only com­ with keys all on the one closing date for pleted last year. A similar report in relation a number of transactions and, therefore, to the legal system in Scotland is also the original contract puts a time limit on being published and that may be helpful but particularly the Benson Report is one the closing date in a way that last minute which I do recommend for the considera­ flaps are avoided. I would, therefore, tion of this Court. Now the second point recommend to the Committee that the I would like to make is this. The Land beauty of the American system is that the Registration Commission, I think it was parties can virtually custom design a con­ called, of which I was a member, as the tract and provide for most eventualities, hon. member, Mr. Kermeen, has men­ which is not provided for in our present tioned . . . system, and it also ensures, Your Excel­ lency, that only one offer is active at a Mr. Kermeen: I think it was your uncle, time, which must be in the best interests Mr. Attorney. of both the buyer and the seller. There­ fore, hon. members, I would suggest to The Attorney-General: Well, in fact, the you it is surely not good enough for the latter Committee which considered the

First Interim Report of Committee Appointed to Revise Advocates' Fees Adopted. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1373

legislation has sat in recent years and I you like, quickly enough to beat a buyer was a member of that on behalf of the Isle coming along behind and you cannot really of Man Law Society and I can say, Your blame the seller who may want to get his Excellency, that the Isle of Man Law money if that money is available to him Society, without qualification, supported immediately whereas, on the other hand, the proposal to have a land registration he may have to risk a Government assess­ system and I can say that with personal ment and the complete failure of the knowledge because I represented the negotiated sale. Your Excellency, we will Society on the Committee and I think Mr. bear the points, however, that the hon. Speaker will be aware of that. I am fully member has made and keep them in mind aware that that did not go ahead for and I thank the Court for their support. reasons which I think were probably reasonable in the light of the Government Mr. Christian: Your Excellency, on a expense which was contemplated, but I quick point of clarification, gazumping is do wish to make it clear that it was not a matter of contract law, it is not a matter any fault of the Isle of Man Law Society of advocates’ fees, and I do not think it that it did not proceed; on the contrary, fair to advocates that it should go out of that Society supported the scheme and I this Court that they are responsible for can say from my own knowledge that that gazumping. was so. The Governor: Is that agreed, hon. members? The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am pleased to have the support of the Court In It was agreed. relation to this resolution. I well recall the learned Attorney-General as a member of the Commission that went into the question of land registration. He was a HOME AFFAIRS BOARD — SETTING UP most argumentative member of the Com­ OF WORKING PARTY — APPROVED. mittee in those days and I, for one, enjoyed the battles which took place between the The Governor: Item number 21. The two legal luminaries who were on that Chairman of Executive Council. particular Committee. I think that Com­ mittee did a good job of work, it is worth Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to looking at the result of their activities move:— again, bearing in mind, of course, the point made by the hon. member for Middle. I That Tynwald— would merely say here that hon. members are well aware, I think, that gazumping, as (1) Agrees in principle to the adootion such, is not necessarily the cause of the of a proposal to transfer responsibility failure of many transactions in the Island for the emergency and security services, today. You do get a chain reaction, a namely, Police, Civil Defence, Fire Ser­ chain of sales, one link in that chain fail­ vice, Civil Aid. Services, Prison, Com­ ing to materialise and, in consequence, munity Home and Probation and After-Care you get a breakdown in the sale of the Service,. to a Home Affairs Board exer­ particular property. I am also aware of the cising its authority through Advisory heartache that young people can encoun­ Committees and serviced by the Govern­ ter and experience when a property ment Secretary as Secretary. which they wish to purchase is being offered on the market and, of course, they (2) Approves the setting up of a work­ have been unable to get the necessary ing party of officials comprising the Gov­ capital or assurances from Government, if ernment Secretary, Administrator and

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. T1374 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

Secretary of the Local Government Board the question and report to Council and, of and a member of the Attorney General's course, Your Excellency, the Council would Chambers to examine in detail the impli­ eventually put forward proposals to Tyn­ cations and complications likely to arise wald. I notice there is an amendment from the creation of a Home Affairs before the Court which seeks to take it out Board and to report to the Governor in of the hands of Executive Council and pass Council on these matters, with particular it to the Constitutional Issues Committee. reference to the establishment and com­ I suppose one should wait and hear what position of the Board and the legislation the hon. member who proposes the amend­ which would be required to implement ment has to say. I beg to move parts (1) the proposed transfer. and (2) of the motion in my name.

Very quickly, hon. members will know Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I rise to that in March this year Executive Council second, and in doing so would just point considered the question of the possibility out the importance of getting it right of transferring responsibility for what actually because we have, of course, at the might be called emergency and security moment the control of the fire services services to one particular body, say, a and, of course, that works in very close Home Affairs Board, and asked the Govern­ liaison with the Planning Committee in all ment Secretary to investigate this proposal. respects of fire escapes and so forth, and This he has done and Executive Council I would not like the position to arise where now feel that there are many advantages the fire services would have only a similar to the Government of the Island if we do position to that of the Highway Board transfer these responsibilities. Three officials in relation to planning. I think it matters probably prompted the thought of is important that there is close co-ordina­ creating such a body. Firstly, the transfer tion between planning and the Fire of Governor’s functions and the fact that Service and fire prevention. These are very there was no appropriate Board of Tyn­ important issues and I think it is absolutely wald to take over some of the Governor’s imperative that these factors be tied up functions which we felt should be trans­ and that they are not completely divorced ferred, Home Affairs functions in particular. from the close co-operation with the The second point was the desire which Planning Committee. has been expressed on several occasions recently to establish an effective political Mr. Ward: I wonder, Your Excellency, is control over the activities of certain depart­ there any case for taking the paragraphs ments of Government. The third considera­ separately? tion, I believe, is the establishment of close co-ordination between these various The Governor: They will be taken security and emergency services. The first separately. part of the motion shows the seven organi­ sations which we believe could usefully be Mr. Ward: Could I explain the reason why amalgamated. Five of them are already I believe they should be taken separately? serviced by Government Office so it would seem desirable that the Government The Governor: They will be taken Secretary should be Secretary of any new separately. Board. Now, if hon. members agree in principle to the proposal, it is suggested Mr. Ward: Yes, well, the reason I believe by Executive Council we should set up that that would be the best way to do it is a small working party as referred to in because I have a feeling, I do not know part (2) of the motion. The thought is that whether I am out on a limb here, but I a very small working party should go into have a feeling that perhaps (1) and (2)

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1375

are perhaps misplaced to a certain degree. services concerned. At the moment the I think there are a lot of the members who, Fire Service is dealt with toy a sub-com­ even on the brief explanation of what the mittee of the Local Government Board and Chairman of Executive Council has said, there is no reason at all why that sub­ are not au fait with the mechanics of what committee should not be a sub-committee a Home Affairs Department would really of a Home Affairs Board. Its close mean and, as a matter of fact, what I association with local authorities, which is would like to see happen is that we traditional and has been built into it since approve of number (2) first, and that is the development of the Fire Services, will the setting up of the working party, which be retained. There will be no threat to would come back to Tynwald with the the association of local authority involve­ thing cut and dried and most of the nuts ment in the Fire Service. As far as the and bolts put together and with a full Police Service is concerned, I am sure explanation of what the pitfalls et cetera all that is envisaged is that the present may be. I have a feeling, sir, that if we Police Board’s powers will be exercised are doing this, agreeing in principle, it through the Home Affairs Board in the can be said in two years' time, “Well, same way as the Police Board exercises you agreed to this in principle so what them at the moment and, in fact, if one are you complaining about now?” I have was constituting such a Board one would a feeling we should be doing the second be tending to look for people who have paragraph first. had experience in the services concerned. As far as Civil Defence is concerned, at Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I consider the moment it is feeling, I think, or was this to be a very important resolution, in feeling to be the Cinderella of services. fact, almost an historic resolution, because It is now suddenly, due to international if there is one thing missing from the Manx tensions, seeming to be necessary, vitally Government at the moment it is a Board necessary, and Civil Defence itself cannot that is responsible for, to use any other exist in isolation without all these other expression, we cannot think of any other services. The hon. Chairman of Executive expression except a Home Affairs Board Council has already referred to those func­ without going into the same name as is tions presently exercised by His Excel­ used in the United Kingdom, the Home lency concerning prisons and the Com­ Office, but a Home Affairs Board, of munity Home and Probation and After Care course, could not, at this moment in time, Services. These, as a result of the devo­ have all the responsibilities of the equiva­ lution of powers, will naturally fall within lent office in the United Kingdom. It is the political ambit of such a Board. The also a correct time to introduce this very constitution of such a Board will, in because at any other time during the any case, be a vehicle for future progress course of the life of Tynwald Court if one if we are going to achieve future prooress proposed this many Boards would see, and in the management of our own affairs. several Chairmen would see their positions There certainly cannot be, in my view, any disappearing. This has no risk of becoming progress towards greater independence of law until after the next General Election the Isle of Man Government if we do not so there is no threat to the immediate have a Home Affairs Board to manage the situation of Boards as they exist at the day-to-day emergency and security forces moment and I think in terms of organisa­ and, also, the housing in an emergency tion each service would still have its such as one which would involve the Civil identity within this Board. The Board Defence in the establishment of an would be the political head of this group emergency system of Government and of services but would be administered by control of emergency services. The sub-committees dealing with each of the second part of the resolution which deals

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. T1376 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 with the working party is deliberately at over Radio Lincoln and that sort of thing, the nuts and bolts level in this resolution. so I do hope that the second part of this No further move could possibly be made resolution will be taken, and even if the before coming back to Tynwald Court again first part was also agreed, that we would and although the amendment, as yet, has not confine it to these particular agencies not been tabled, if it is tabled I would of Tynwald as stated in the first part of like to speak against it but, at this parti­ the resolution. cular moment, I would very much ask you to support the principle because it is Mr. Watterson: Your Excellency, as I am nothing more than the principle at the putting forward this amendment as well, I moment until we have a nuts and bolts would like to make something quite clear report which can be considered by the at the start. I wholeheartedly and unreser­ Court in detail. No Board or Commission vedly support the principle of having a is being relieved of its powers by this Home Affairs Board as detailed in part (1) resolution. No member of any Board or of this item on the Agenda. I beg to move Commission as presently constituted will the following amendment:— be deprived of any authority within the life of this Court. Delete (2) and substitute therefor—

Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I am sure "Refers the matter to the Constitu­ that the hon. member for South Douglas, tional Issues Committee of Tynwald Mr. Ward, has made a very valuable for further consideration and re­ suggestion here, that is, that there should port to Tynwald as soon as pos­ be a working party to look at the whole sible." question of what a Home Affairs Board shall or could do. I am also aware, as I My reason for tabling this amendment am sure we all are, that this particular is very simple. It does indicate that the Home Affairs Board, as far as its duties Government Secretary, Administrator and and functions are concerned, is based on Secretary of the Local Government Board the duties and functions of the Home and a member of the Attorney-General’s Office itself. Police, Prisons, Civil Defence, Chambers should be the Committee to look all these matters are the concern, in into this matter and I feel that this is ex­ Britain, of the Home Office, but there is tremely difficult for them for a number of another function which they have per­ reasons. I am not saying that they could formed, quite recently given to them, and not be objective and look at this in an ana­ that is the control of broadcasting. Now lytical way but the results of such research one of the things that I think we must try in the future could well totally alter the to achieve as we expand Government is structure of Government Office in itself. the rationalisation of our Board system. We I am not suggesting either that the legal have a very good Board system. We have minds of the Attorney-General’s depart­ also on the fringe, as we know only too ment could not be analytical about the well, Commissions and so on who are per­ problems that may be in front of them and forming some sort of quasi Board function. things they might have to look at but the I know also that the Broadcasting Commis­ result of this may well, for all we know, sion at the moment are having great diffi­ provide a situation that Tynwald would like culty because they are a Commission and and the Home Office may not like and I I think that if they were a Board, or at least think this would be very difficult for the their functions were those of a Board, they Attorney-General, in the particular constitu­ would not be having the difficulties, and I tional role that he is in at the moment. His am looking to the Chairman of the Broad­ department would end up by being in two casting Commission to substantiate this, camps at once. I, personally, believe also

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1377 that a Committee of this nature would have as this so that the working party at least very little clout as far as funds are con­ have some idea of what is in the minds of cerned. It may need to take independent hon. members. (Interruption.) I would technical and legal advice from without certainly support this resolution. It seems Tynwald as opposed to from within — to me a perfectly good evolvement of (interruption) — it may have to get the responsibility from Government Office, report out, and I would therefore suggest something that this Court looks forward to. that it would be far better to allow an I support that. I would, though, sir, ask already established Committee of Tynwald that the Prison and the Community Home with the machinery to look into this, that should not be controlled by the same com­ could co-opt these people and bring them mittee. I think that is important and I would into their fold to assist them in their re­ like the Committee which is considering searches, to do that. They have, under responsibilities to bear that in mind. The the Standing Orders of Tynwald, therefore, needs and aims of the Prison and the the various financial provisions and they Community Home are different and it is would be able to do the things that they vitally important to the young offenders, wished to do and I would therefore sug­ the 11 to 17 year olds, that they are not gest to hon. members that by whole­ seen to be sent to prison. I also welcome heartedly accepting the first item on this the close political liaison with the Pro­ Agenda, the second item should be put bation Office, and feel it can only do good to a Committee, and I believe the matter for that service to be controlled by a will go to them anyway after the working Board. (Interruption.) Quite, well then, get party have reported, and allow the Com­ up and say so, because the Probation mittee to co-opt and discuss with all the Office seems to be the Cinderella of this various parties necessary. It would have Government. It has a terribly important both the financial and political clout neces­ part to play in our community and yet sary, I believe, to bring about and to it is always understaffed, always over­ report to this Court what I see in the worked, and I think it is not on at all. future, not only historic, to use the hon. Certainly in the future the responsibilities member for Garff's words, but also of that department will be greater, with the essential if the Isle of Man is to have good community service sentences, and so on, government in the years to come. and they can only be of benefit with effective control and administration. As far Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I think we as the Broadcasting Commission is con­ are making very heavy weather of this. cerned, Your Excellency, it is true that we have been having great difficulty as far as Members: Hear, hear. Radio Lincoln is concerned, and that difficulty might have been overcome had Mr. Crellin: It is a straightforward we been a properly constituted Board of resolution and it is asking for two things. Tynwald. I would regret having to inform The first thing, to agree the thing in prin­ this hon. Court that we have not been able ciple in the first paragraph and then to let to persuade the Home Office not to pro­ a working party of officials look at it, study ceed with the allocation of 1368 to Radio the problem, and report to the Governor Lincoln. in Executive Council, and then this will all come back to us. I do not know why we Mr. Delaney: Switch the power up. do not just go ahead and agree. Mr. Walker: They have informed us that Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I think it they cannot find another frequency and is important that members of Tynwald they are going ahead with their individual express their feelings on a resolution such plans. I know, Your Excellency, that it is

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. T1378 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

late, but I would ask for your Indulgence have had, probably, in the last 100 years and the Indulgence of this hon. Court — as far as the administration is concerned (interruption) — not tomorrow, now, just because what it is doing is taking those for a few moments to put the record responsibilities presently discharged in straight as far as broadcasting in the Isle that office under the auspices of the of Man is concerned. Governor and placing them in this Court very, very firmly. That is why I say that The Governor: This is nothing to do with the Constitutional Committee who are broadcasting. looking at it now, and who have a wider view than that expressed by the hon. Mr. Walker: Well, it is all under the Chairman, who is a member of it, incident­ broad canvas of Government Office, sir. ally, and who have been looking at it on a much wider canvas, should continue The Governor: It is not relevant, sir. that examination because, believe me, a nuts and bolts Committee are not going to Mr. Walker: Well, statements have been have the muscle to deal with this one. made, sir, which I would like the oppor­ You have got the problem of reconciling, tunity, tomorrow, of putting straight. as has been mentioned here, the various authorities exercised by Boards at present The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to time, dove-tailing the responsibilities that support the principle embodied in the have been mentioned this afternoon, and first section of this resolution and support if it is done rightly any Committee which it as far as it goes but, to me, it does not has the responsibility would naturally use go far enough. You see, we have just a group such as this to perfect the listened to the hon. member for Rushen machine, but over and about it there must portray some of the shortcomings already. be the policy line and this is where, accept­ The fact remains, and I am going, incident­ ing the principle, I believe the resolution ally, to second the amendment and falls short, Your Excellency, on the policy support it for the very reason, despite the line itself. I accept it as a marked step sniggers of the hon. member of the Coun­ forward but, nevertheless, I feel that if the cil, that the Constitutional Committee are hon. member would accept the fact, even looking at this particular issue at the as a member of the Constitutional Com­ present time. There are other respon­ mittee, that it might well be dealt with in sibilities over and above these respon­ this way, I believe we would be able to sibilities which, as the hon. member, Mr. make foundations that will be lasting, as Kermeen, has said, come under the ambit opposed to foundations that could be of Government Office control at the present susceptible to change in a very short time. time; a host of things, immigration, and so on. You can run through a list. Now it is Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I must rise to not sufficient to say to this nuts and bolts oppose this amendment, not because I do Committee, “ Here is your remit set out in not consider that it is made in good faith number (1). You produce from this the but, in fact, it must be obvious to every­ scheme of things which we are going to body that at some point we have got to consider in the future.” It needs a much have a political meeting on the progress closer examination, an examination in that this makes, but to begin with we have depth, of the position before this Court got to establish that these functions can moves on it because what we are develop­ be administered together and it is the ing here is one of the most important peoole involved with the present dav ad­ controls that the Manx Government will ministration who can come back and say ever have. This is going to be one of the to us, “ It will work if it is administered most significant of developments that we this way.” Now that is a purely administrat­

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980 T1379 ive decision, it is not a political decision, save some time. This is, of course, an ex­ and it is the Executive Council who are tremely important matter. Hon. members comirg to this Court now to ask, really — have said perhaps item (1) here may be (interruption) — for this resolution to pro­ extended. I am sure we will find many ceed, and through Executive Council to more things such as immigration, as Mr. see if this is administratively possible. Speaker has mentioned, which could be Now nobody would then dream of progres­ included in this question of a Home Affairs sing it any further without strong political Board. Now I do appreciate that hon. mem­ representation and at that point when it bers have been good enough to support comes back to this Court, then is the time this proposal of Executive Council and, as to start using the political muscle and to I have said, hon. members will recall from fit in with the established Committee. I am information they get on the proceedings of certain that no Executive Council is going Executive Council, that in March this was to proceed any further past reporting to brought forward, and I think it is quite fair this Court without either working with or for me to say that the proposal did come, submitting to the advice of that Committee, and I think he ought to get the credit for but at this stage let us see if it is admini­ it, from the hon. member for Garff, Dr. stratively possible, then deal with the Mann. Now I am sure we agree with part political -implications afterwards, because I (1). The difficulty of part (2) is this. I ap­ agree with the hon. Mr. Speaker, the preciate the feelings of the hon. member political implications are very, very great who has put forward this amendment but and they must be established very firmly what I am telling hon. members, sir, is that right at the beginning. But let us see if it this is before the Court today as a matter is -administratively possible first, and I am of courtesy -to persons involved in the sure the Chairman of Executive Council Police, Civil Defence, Fire Services, Civil- will give the undertaking that no progress Aid Services, Prison, and so on. We have will be made past that point without coming brought it forward as a matter of courtesy. to this Court. There is nothing to stop Executive Council doing this if it wants without any reference Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I just want to Tynwald. to come out on the side of the moverofthe amendment and Mr. Speaker because I feel The Speaker: That would be political it could be very awkward for the officials suicide. to suggest dehorning their departments. Administratively some of it may work but they may not like to go that far. I do think Mr. Irving: No, it is not political suicide. it is something that members should be There is no reason at all why Executive doing right from the beginning and not Council, and I am sure that we reserve the expecting our officials to make the sugges­ right to go into any question like this which tions. As I say, I think it could be embar­ we feel it is our job to do. It does not mean rassing for them and I think their thoughts we do anything but at least we examine might be limited in the future by what we these proposals. What I am saying in the produce from those recommendations. case of the second part is, for example, I want the Government Secretary deeply in­ Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, first of all I volved in this. His department is servicing would like to thank the hon. member for five of these organisations now. On the Garff, Dr. Mann, for his contribution to the setting up of a security committee in the debate, and I feel that I should apologise event of war or major disaster, the Govern­ for not giving a greater explanation in the ment Secretary will be secretary of that. He beginning, but I thought we might try and is already secretary of Executive Council

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved. T1380 TYNWALD COURT, JULY 9, 1980

and he is Civil Defence controller-desig­ Mr. Watterson. Will those in favour of the nate, so I really want him to be involved amendment to part (2) of the resolution in this. Now, as for the lack of muscle, I please say aye; against, no. The noes have can assure Mr. Speaker that Executive it. I will 'now put the resolution as it stands Council will have the muscle when they on the Agenda. Will those in favour please get the report from these officials. say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The resolution is carried, hon. members. The Governor: I will put the motion in two parts, hon. members. Those in favour The Governor: I assume that hon. mem­ of pant (1) of the resolution please say bers would wish to adjourn at this stage aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning?- second part of the resolution. I will first put the amendment which was moved by The Court adjourned.

Home Affairs Board — Setting Up of Working Party — Approved.