Wednesday Volume 497 21 October 2009 No. 128

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 21 October 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 893 21 OCTOBER 2009 894

Mr. Foster: It is important that the international House of Commons community makes clear its position with regard to the number of people still in the camps and the importance Wednesday 21 October 2009 of freedom of movement. We believe that that is happening, but, as far as the Commonwealth’s position is concerned, I know that the Government of Sri Lanka are keen to The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock host the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in a couple of years’ time. That might have some bearing on their response to the developments for people who PRAYERS are in the camps.

Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] May I thank the Minister for his statements and for his visit to Sri Lanka on behalf of my Tamil constituents? May I also ask his Department to support the EU Oral Answers to Questions Trade Commissioner’s GSP—or generalised system of preferences—plus report, which was issued on Monday, to ensure that preferred status will be withdrawn from Sri Lanka should things continue as they are? INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr. Foster: My hon. Friend has long been an advocate for her Tamil constituents and I applaud her for The Secretary of State was asked— her commitment. As regards the GSP plus and the announcement made this week by the European Sri Lanka Commission, there is a process that should be followed to maintain the integrity of the GSP plus system. We 1. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): believe that in the meantime the Government of Sri What his most recent assessment is of the humanitarian Lanka should look at the findings and act on them situation of refugees in Sri Lanka; and if he will make a swiftly. statement. [294269] Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): As someone who The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for visited the camps earlier this year, along with you, International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): Two Mr. Speaker, I welcome the Minister’s report on the weeks ago, I visited Sri Lanka to see for myself the basic conditions in the camps. Does he agree with me, situation of the 250,000 internally displaced people however, that the Sri Lankan Government would better detained in camps. Conditions have improved there serve their interests if they gave full unrestricted access compared with my previous visit in April, with basic to the camp to the media and all the agencies and needs such as food and shelter being met. However, fulfilled their promise to allow people to return home health care and humanitarian access remain inadequate before Christmas? What are the chances of that happening? and we are concerned about military oversight of the camps and family separations. We also believe that Mr. Foster: The right hon. Gentleman knows the conditions will deteriorate during the monsoon season, situation well from his own experience and from his which is about to start. While I was in Sri Lanka, I experience as Chairman of the Select Committee. I repeated the United Kingdom’s call for freedom of agree entirely with his assessment that it is in the movement for all the IDPs so that they can go back to Government of Sri Lanka’s interest to allow open access host families, relatives or their places of origin. to the media. During the visit that I undertook two weeks ago, I had people from the BBC with me. It had Mr. Cunningham: May I ask my hon. Friend whether full access to camps and individuals within those camps he has been able to get a time scale for the Tamils to go to do whatever reporting it felt necessary. Let me give back to their homes in Sri Lanka? Also, how has the aid the right hon. Gentleman an indication of the scale of been distributed? the transfer that is needed. We have had a request from the International Organisation for Migration for transport Mr. Foster: The Government of Sri Lanka were assistance to help 41,000 people from the camps go committed to having 80 per cent. of those detained in back to Mannar, Mullaitivu and Kilinochchi, in addition camps going back to their places of origin by the end of to the 32,000 whom we know left the camps in September. the year. To facilitate that process, I am pleased to announce today an allocation of £500,000 to the HALO Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): I had Trust for mine surveillance and de-mining in the Mullaitivu the very distressing experience with the all-party group area. That work has started and will make the area safe of visiting the camps at Menik farms zones 2 and 3 at for homes and for land use for the people who were put Vavuniya. In spite of that distressing aspect, there was in the camps. an uplifting side to the visit because of the attitude of the people and their hope for the future. Will the Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Will the Minister Minister ensure that any aid that is forthcoming from look into whether further pressure can be put on Sri the Government is directed primarily at the welfare of Lanka by the Commonwealth? If Sri Lanka continues the people in the camps and their displacement back to not to let people return or go home from the camps, their own homes, which have been out of reach, to be perhaps it should be suspended from the Commonwealth. joined with their families? Secondly— 895 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 896

Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not wish to be discourteous Mr. Reed: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, and to the hon. Gentleman, but I think that one question for the additional moneys that he has announced. However, will do. he will know that it is 25 years since the first Band Aid concert brought the Ethiopian food crisis to our attention. Mr. Foster: When I was in Sri Lanka, I made it clear Local Tearfund visitors say that even the weeds are not to the Government that from the end of this year, when growing in some areas. This is a long-term problem, not the monsoon season was brought to a conclusion, we just a short-term one. Will the Minister describe the would no longer be funding aid for closed camps and specific steps that he is taking to address the long-term that our aid would be directed towards facilitating climate change issues affecting the region, and Ethiopia movement from the camps. That includes the de-mining in particular, as well as the immediate food programmes to which I have referred and means that I can announce that are so desperately needed? £250,000 for predictable, safe and dignified transport for people from the camps back to host communities, as Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend makes an important well as a further £220,000 to the Food and Agriculture point and I congratulate him on his work with Tearfund Organisation to provide bushels of rice seeds to enable and other similar aid agencies in his constituency. He people to have a decent livelihood when they get back will recognise that we are in a very different place now to their homes. from where we were some 25 years ago. There has been a substantial increase in the numbers of people getting Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): The help. The proportion of people in Ethiopia in need of Minister has confirmed this morning that a package of emergency assistance is lower than 25 years ago, not rehabilitation measures is being put in place by the least because some of the support that we have provided Department. That is welcome, but he has also confirmed through in-country productive safety net programmes that emergency aid will be redirected away from the and humanitarian assistance. We continue to work with camps. The Government also voted against the $2.5 billion African leaders to make sure that their voices are also International Monetary Fund package in July and are heard in the climate change negotiations that are under now considering ending the EU’s special trade privileges way at the moment, and which we desperately hope will that the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain lead to a new global deal to replace Kyoto. McDonagh) mentioned. Is that really the most constructive Mr. Robertson: Ethiopia is one of the worst affected way to persuade the Sri Lankan Government to promote areas. The Government have provided welcome emergency a long-term reconciliation process, and to meet their relief, but the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Reed) stated pledge that 80 per cent. of displaced people made a good point when he spoke about the long-term should be returned by Christmas? That is what members problems. I spoke to the ambassador just a few minutes of the Sri Lankan diaspora, and all Sri Lankan people ago, and he stressed the importance of providing in the UK, desperately want. development aid. I understand that Ethiopia receives a smaller proportion of such aid than a number of other Mr. Foster: We were speaking up for all the people I countries in the region. Will the Minister look at what saw in the camps two weeks ago. It was clear that they can be done to provide the financial and technical wanted to be returned to their homes as quickly as assistance to Ethiopia so that these terrible famines do possible, but the nature of the closed camps, with their not keep happening? restrictions and military oversight, is wholly wrong. That is why our assistance will be geared to the de-mining, Mr. Thomas: We continue to provide a substantial transport and livelihood programmes, as they will enable assistance programme to Ethiopia. I hope to visit the people to move safely and securely from the camps back country shortly to see for myself the challenges the hon. to their homes, where they will be able to get on with Gentleman describes. When we published the White their lives. I think that that is what the diaspora community Paper in July we set out our determination to do all we here in the UK wants to hear. can to help developing countries such as Ethiopia increase agricultural production. We are therefore increasing East Africa our research budget for the types of crops that can survive climate change and so prevent people needing 2. Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): emergency support. We also want to put further investment What steps his Department is taking to alleviate food into the type of social protection schemes that are shortages in east Africa. [294270] already making a difference and preventing people needing emergency assistance. We are determined to provide 7. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): more humanitarian assistance, and will keep up the What recent assessment he has made of levels of pressure on other international donors to do more to availability of food in east Africa; and if he will make a help countries like Ethiopia, and other countries in the statement. [294275] region as well. The Minister of State, Department for International Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): Does Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): My right hon. Friend my hon. Friend agree that children who are hungry in the Secretary of State recently announced an extra east Africa face particular problems? Will he therefore £39 million of additional humanitarian assistance to commend the work of the Schools for Africa School the region, bringing our total contribution this year to Meal Deal, and the School Food Trust’s Really Good some £83 million. That will help to supply food aid, School Dinner campaign? They provide practical support emergency nutrition, water and sanitation, and will for children in school and community-based feeding be delivered by the World Food Programme and schemes and also persuade children here about the UNICEF, and agencies such as Oxfam and Médecins importance of providing long-term support for children sans Frontières. in developing countries. 897 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 898

Mr. Thomas: I certainly will praise the work of the just 5 per cent. of the development money received organisation that my hon. Friend describes and has from the UK taxpayer going into agricultural projects, worked with. I know that my right hon. Friend the yet much more into financial services, shopping malls— Secretary of State, who attended the launch of the programme that my hon. Friend describes, was also Mr. Speaker: Order. May I say to the Back Bencher impressed by its work. My hon. Friend will be pleased of the Year that he is deservedly Back Bencher of the to know that we continue to work closely with organisations Year, but that was a “War and Peace” question, and I do such as UNICEF which provide support to help to not want “War and Peace” questions. make sure that children are not forgotten in the delivery of emergency assistance, and that we help to tackle the Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend is right to highlight the levels of malnutrition that still exist among children in need for more investment in agriculture, as other hon. the region. Members have done in previous questions. We are working closely with the Americans. In particular, the G8 and Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and others have committed more than US$20 billion over Selkirk) (LD): The situation in east Africa, particularly the next three years for food security and agricultural in Ethiopia, is dire. We welcome the additional support development. We are committing some £1 billion over that the Government have offered to the Governments the next three years. With reference to CDC, it has there but, as the hon. Member for Loughborough invested in 33 agri-businesses, as well as a series of other (Mr. Reed) highlighted, it is 25 years since the famine businesses in Africa and other developing countries. We that killed a million people. Is it not a scandal that the need it to continue to invest in those businesses to help World Food Programme has barely half the funding to generate more jobs so that developing countries can that it needs to feed the 100 million people it estimates plot their own path out of dependence on aid. are starving, and is it not time to stop relying on emergency appeals and get proper funding in place for Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): But that programme? the damning National Audit Office report last year found that Ministers failed to demand real evidence of Mr. Thomas: As I alluded to in my answer to my hon. the impact of CDC, and that this multi-billion business Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Reed) and was overseen by the equivalent of just one and a half other Members, we accept that a series of steps need to full-time members of staff from the Department. What be taken. We have to continue to provide emergency is the Minister doing to get his act together and ensure assistance to organisations such as the World Food that CDC delivers on the key development objectives Programme, and indeed we continue to campaign that we expect? internationally for more humanitarian assistance to be provided. At the same time, we need to put in place a Mr. Thomas: Unusually for the hon. Gentleman, he series of further long-term steps to help to increase somewhat exaggerates the findings of the NAO report. agricultural production in countries in east Africa and Since its publication, we have put in place a further elsewhere so that they can better tackle their own needs, series of steps to respond to the NAO’s concerns—in thereby preventing the need for emergency assistance. terms not only of monitoring pay, but of ensuring that We have said that we will increase our agricultural there is independent verification of CDC’s investment research budget, but we also continue to put pressure code. We have further asked CDC to shift more of its on other donors, some in Europe and some outside total investment into low-income countries and, particularly, Europe, to do more to increase humanitarian assistance into sub-Saharan Africa. and to put in place long-term development programmes to help countries away from the type of problems that Copenhagen Summit we are discussing. Ethical Investments 4. Helen Southworth (Warrington, South) (Lab): What steps the Government are taking to ensure equitable 3. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): treatment of developing countries in negotiations which What ethical criteria are applied to investment are taking place before the Copenhagen climate change decisions made by CDC Group plc. [294271] summit. [294272] The Minister of State, Department for International The Secretary of State for International Development Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): CDC capital is invested (Mr. Douglas Alexander): Climate change today poses in accordance with CDC’s updated investment code. It the greatest risk to the poorest countries. To achieve a aims to ensure that CDC applies appropriately strong fair and equitable outcome at Copenhagen, it is therefore environmental, social and governance standards to its essential that the most vulnerable countries have a voice investment decisions. Specifically, it prohibits CDC in the decisions that are taken. The UK has provided investment in businesses involving hazardous products, considerable financial and technical support to developing endangered and protected wildlife, the production and country negotiators and civil society, helping them to trade of arms, gambling, pornography and tobacco prepare for and engage in high-level meetings in the products. run-up to Copenhagen. David Taylor: The United Nations, Hillary Clinton, Helen Southworth: The world’s poorest countries are NGOs and others have called for urgent investment in already being hurt by the leading edge of climate change, food production to relieve poverty in the developing and people are calling out for help. Will my right hon. world, yet CDC executives enjoy a bonus culture that Friend be absolutely resolute in making sure that their would be the envy of Fred Goodwin. Will the Minister voice is heard at Copenhagen and we get urgent action apply ethical tests to the CDC decisions that have led to on their behalf? 899 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 900

Mr. Alexander: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend the Government have made a commitment that only up to undertaking that she seeks. We have been tireless in our 10 per cent. of our official development assistance will efforts to ensure that the voices of sub-Saharan African be used as part of the public contribution to what we countries and other developing countries are heard at hope will be a global deal in Copenhagen. Sadly, that the negotiations. We welcome the engagement of Prime commitment has not been forthcoming from the Minister Meles of Ethiopia, speaking up for and Opposition, but if the hon. Gentleman is concerned representing the interests of the African Union, but about the need to listen to the voices of the poor, only last month I travelled to Bangladesh with my right perhaps he will give that commitment now. hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to ensure that he was fully apprised of HIV Vaccine (Funding) the clear linkage between the need to tackle dangerous climate change and the need to tackle global poverty. 5. Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): Did (LD): What funding his Department is providing for the Secretary of State notice that the Government of research into an HIV vaccine for use in developing the Maldives recently held a Cabinet meeting underwater countries. [294273] to highlight the risk to that country of climate change? Given that the Maldives is an Islamic, fully fledged The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for democracy with strong links to this country, what steps International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): The are we taking to help them in their battle against climate Department has committed a total of £78 million for change? the international AIDS vaccine initiative. That comprises £38 million from 1998 to 2007 and a further £40 million Mr. Alexander: The surest way to help the people of from 2008 to 2013. The United Kingdom’s Government the Maldives and, indeed, all the developing world is to were the first to fund the IAVI, in 1998, and we have ensure that we get a global deal on carbon in Copenhagen. remained a major bilateral supporter, providing the However, I hope that in the weeks between now and the long-term and predictable support that we believe is summit we will see throughout the House a genuine essential for vaccine development. consensus emerge on the key issue of development and climate finance, because although the Government have Dr. Harris: I am grateful to the Minister for that pledged that we recognise the need for genuinely additional answer, and I recognise the funding that has already resources to deal with the challenge of adaptation, that gone in. Does he accept that the recent media coverage commitment has sadly not yet been forthcoming from of the potential, yet-to-be-proven vaccine breakthrough the Opposition. [Interruption.] in this area points up even more the huge need for funding to build capacity in vaccine research, as well as Mr. Speaker: Order. There are too many private the huge rewards that would flow from success in this conversations going on. Mr. Burt, a man of your legendary area? courtesy knows better. Mr. Foster: We gave a cautious welcome to the findings John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): What that have recently come from research in Thailand, for discussions has my right hon. Friend had with Nigeria example. We believe that prevention must be at the about gas flaring; and can he do something about it? heart of our approach to dealing with HIV/AIDS, and The people in that area are suffering from the pollution that the search for a viable, effective and accessible that it causes. vaccine must be the backbone of our approach to prevention. Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend, who has a great deal of knowledge of the subject, leading as I understand he Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) does the all-party group on Nigeria, is right to recognise (Lab): Will my hon. Friend and his ministerial colleagues the issue of gas flaring. There have been considerable use their influence to ensure that people, particularly in challenges in the delta, and I understand that there are east Africa, including Uganda, are not encouraged to continuing discussions on the issue, but I shall write to pull out of the necessary treatment because of the him. terrible picture in terms of the food shortage?

Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): As I Mr. Foster: My right hon. Friend has had a long-term saw at the Poznan climate summit last year, representatives interest in international development, and I pay tribute of developing countries are at a disadvantage, because to that. I entirely agree with his sentiment that it is they cannot afford to employ the hordes of lawyers and important that people who have embarked on treatment negotiators that developed countries hire. In the spirit continue with it if we are to deal with the scourge of of the right hon. Gentleman’s call for a unified response HIV/AIDS. throughout the House, will he look again at Conservative proposals for an advocacy fund to help poor countries to make their voices heard as effectively as possible Copenhagen Summit throughout these vital forthcoming negotiations? 6. Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) Mr. Alexander: I have heard the voices of developing (LD): What recent discussions he has had with his EU countries, and they have said clearly and unequivocally counterparts on the international development aspects that they do not want development funds rebadged in of the forthcoming Copenhagen climate change toto as climate finance funds. That is why we as a summit; and if he will make a statement. [294274] 901 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 902

The Secretary of State for International Development to poppy growing; and to promote stability and (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The General Affairs and External development in Helmand province. We work with the Relations Council has two sessions each year on wider UK Government strategy for the region to strengthen development issues. Climate change was a focus of the state institutions, counter the threat of violent extremism, May meeting, and we will again be looking at climate and produce sustainable economic growth. change in the November meeting, as well as ensuring that we are represented at these meetings. I take numerous Ann Winterton: Are not storage and distribution opportunities to discuss the road to Copenhagen with systems, and a marketing strategy including minimum my EU counterparts. guaranteed prices, essential to support wheat production in Afghanistan, because otherwise we run the risk of Mr. Kennedy: I thank the Secretary of State for that over-production there, collapsing the price and therefore reply. Does he agree, however, that it is important that destroying the credibility of international aid? developed countries, including our European counterparts, show sensitivity to the developing world as regards Mr. Alexander: These are exactly the issues that we climate change implications from the vantage point of are discussing at the moment with both the Government the developed world? As such, will he stress to them his of Afghanistan and Governor Mangal in Helmand personal support—and, I hope, that of the Government province. We welcome the fact that we have moved to a more widely—for the 10:10 campaign, which will feature position in which more than half the provinces in in my colleagues’ Liberal Democrat-led debate later Afghanistan are poppy-free. Amidst all the complexity, today? there is a basic equation: where we can deliver security, we are more likely to reduce the level of opium production. Mr. Alexander: The right hon. Gentleman is entirely That is why we welcome not just the drop in the number right in recognising that there needs to be a genuine of poppy-free provinces but the fact that Governor engagement with the developing countries. That was Mangal is leading the initiative on wheat seed production. one of the reasons I recently travelled to India to engage with dialogue there on the issue of climate change. In Moldova relation to the 10:10 campaign, I can confirm that my Department has signed up to that campaign; that is a 9. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/ powerful signal of the continuing commitment of several Co-op): What steps he is taking to assist economic, of us to tackle this issue. [Interruption.] cultural and democratic development in the Republic of Moldova following the recent elections in that Mr. Speaker: Order. I recognise that Members on country. [294278] both sides of the House are excited about the approach of Prime Minister’s questions, but it is very discourteous The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for for Members to witter away when a question is being International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): The asked or an answer is being given. The public do not Department for International Development is holding like it—and, as I have said, neither, frankly, do I. discussions with the new Government of Moldova about our assistance programme. Indications are that the new Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I welcome the Government wish to see ongoing support for their determination expressed by the Secretary of State, but national development strategy, economic development what confidence can he give us that the rights and needs in rural areas, conflict resolution and reform of the of vulnerable developing countries will be better protected social assistance system. in negotiations on climate change at Copenhagen than they were at the world trade negotiations? Alun Michael: Moldova is the poorest country in Europe, very small and weighed down by the conflict in Mr. Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to recognise Transnistria, and it depends greatly on citizens working that there are intertwined challenges of dealing with abroad, particularly in Europe. Will my hon. Friend dangerous climate change and with global poverty. Unless ensure that now the election crisis has been resolved, we we are successful in Copenhagen in securing a global focus on enabling Moldova to prepare itself to join the deal, then dangerous climate change threatens the attempt European Union? to make poverty history for millions of our fellow citizens around the world. That is why we have worked Mr. Foster: The UK will of course support the new so hard to ensure that the voices of the poorest countries, Government of Moldova, because it is not in our interest as well as the richest, are heard in Copenhagen this to have an unstable, impoverished and divided Moldova December. on the border of the EU.

Afghanistan

8. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): What priorities PRIME MINISTER he has set for his Department’s work in Afghanistan. [294277] The Prime Minister was asked— The Secretary of State for International Development Engagements (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The Department for International Development is supporting the work of the Afghanistan Q1. [294236] Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): If national development strategy to establish a more effective he will list his official engagements for Wednesday state; to encourage economic growth, providing alternatives 21 October. 903 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 904

The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): Last night The Prime Minister: I said exactly that last week—that and this morning, I have been meeting the Northern it was counter-productive for there to be a strike—but I Ireland First Minister and Deputy First Minister on the think it is right for us in this House to urge negotiation devolution of policing and justice to Northern Ireland. and mediation. Our role must be to encourage the I have been in touch with all party leaders in Northern negotiations that are taking place, to urge people to go Ireland, and I am now sending to all of them and to ACAS when that becomes the right thing to do and placing in the House of Commons Library my proposals to make sure that we do everything in our power to get a for a financial settlement that is designed to make negotiated settlement to something that arises from the possible the completion of the final stage of devolution 2007 modernisation plan. It is in nobody’s interest that in Northern Ireland. We will of course keep the House this strike goes ahead. fully updated. Our aim is a peaceful, more secure and more prosperous Northern Ireland. Mr. Cameron: Peter Mandelson said that abandoning In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have part-privatisation of the Royal Mail would be further meetings today. “irresponsible and an abdication” of an important “commitment”, and that it Mr. Blunt: Reigate is proud to be home to 579 bomb “would…threaten the sustainability of the network”—[ Official disposal squadron of the Territorial Army.Last Wednesday, Report, House of Lords, 11 May 2009; Vol. 710, c. 834-848.] when the Prime Minister was making his statement on Yet five months after the Postal Services Bill left the Afghanistan, it was being told that it could not train House of Lords it still has not come to the House of until 1 April next year, and its TA centre is under threat Commons. Can the Prime Minister tell us why he has of closure. What effect does he think those measures allowed this appalling display of weakness? will have on the recruitment and retention of those vital volunteer specialists? The Prime Minister: There is no commercial buyer for the Royal Mail—the right hon. Gentleman must The Prime Minister: I made it clear last Wednesday understand that. This is nothing to do with the dispute when I made my statement that we would ensure that which, as I am trying to explain to him, is about the our resources were devoted to the campaign in Afghanistan, 2007 modernisation plan. In most areas of the country, and any member of the Territorial Army who is going the 2007 modernisation plan has been implemented. In to Afghanistan in the next few months will secure the some areas, it still has to be implemented. We must training that is necessary. As the Chief of the General encourage all those in the postal services to go ahead Staff has made clear, the reason why the changes have and implement it. We are the Government who made been necessary is that the Army has recruited more possible £1.2 billion in loans for that to happen. Let regular soldiers in the past year—9,000 extra compared us—on both sides of the House—urge the negotiation with 7,000 in previous years. That is why, with those and mediation that is necessary to avoid an unproductive resources being devoted to Afghanistan, we have to strike. focus on those people who are going to go to Afghanistan. They will not only have the pre-deployment training—I Mr. Cameron: What the Prime Minister has just said have answered the Leader of the Opposition on that—but is complete nonsense. He did not stop the Bill because everybody who is going to Afghanistan will be individually he could not sell the Royal Mail; he stopped it because assessed to make sure that they have all the training that he could not sell it to his own Back Benchers. Only last is necessary. week he was telling us what a wonderful time it is to sell the Tote, the Dartford crossing, the channel tunnel rail Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister link and the student loan book. Everybody knows that join me in congratulating the NHS in Fife on its the reason why he dropped the Bill is that his Back preparations for swine flu vaccinations, and can he Benchers will not support it. Just for once, why does he update the House on progress on such vaccinations not admit that? across the UK? [Interruption.] The Prime Minister: We have—rightly so, and it The Prime Minister: It is right that the House learns should be acknowledged—announced a disposals the progress that is being made on vaccinating those programme for all the assets that I mentioned last week, people who might be at risk of swine flu, and it is right and we will go ahead with that. However, I have to say that I tell people that for both those who are at risk and to the right hon. Gentleman that this is nothing to do health service workers we are starting the process of with the dispute at the moment. The dispute is about vaccination immediately. It is also right to say that we the 2007 modernisation plan. He had a shadow Minister have been ahead of the world in purchasing the vaccines yesterday saying that he did not know whether, if a that are necessary and in making sure that those people Conservative Government came into power, they would who need treatment with antivirals have it available at be able to sell the Post Office either. the earliest opportunity. I hope that there is all-party support for making available those vaccinations to people Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister gesticulates, but who need them. our view is very clear: bring forward the Bill and we will support it. Why has he not got the guts to do that? The Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): The planned fact is that this Prime Minister is incapable of giving a strikes at the Royal Mail will be bad for the economy straight answer to a straight question. By the way, he and business, bad for customers and, above all, bad for says there is no connection between the strikes that we all those who work for the Royal Mail and care about its see and the weakness he showed in withdrawing that future. Will the Prime Minister condemn these strikes Bill. Does he agree that since the Government abandoned and join me in sending a direct message to the trade part-privatisation of the Royal Mail, union militancy union to call this strike off? has actually got worse? 905 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 906

The Prime Minister: As a result of the modernisation Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): May I begin plan, 40,000 jobs have gone in the Royal Mail. The right by thanking the Prime Minister for meeting some West hon. Gentleman may wish to seek to bring the industrial Lancashire residents and discussing their issues? They relations of the Royal Mail into the political arena in told him about the failure to develop the town centre in the way that he is doing now, but it would be far better if Skelmersdale and transport issues such as the Ormskirk the Conservative party and other parties encouraged bypass—really important local issues. Does he agree negotiation and, if necessary, arbitration on this matter. that we must continue to invest in people and communities I repeat to him: the 2007 modernisation is at the heart and in delivering such services, aiding regeneration and of this dispute and that is what has got to be moved growth and not cutting services, which should not be on forward. Already, large numbers of jobs have had to go the agenda today? as part of that. I also say this to him: the Bill that came before this House is nothing to do with the dispute. The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I was pleased to visit her area in the past few days Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister says that we must and talk about regeneration there. I appreciated the not bring this strike into the political arena, but the fact opportunity to meet the West Lancashire residents in is that it is in the political arena, not least because the her constituency and talk about the challenge of communication workers pay half his bills—[Interruption.] regeneration for the future. We can regenerate our economies Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition only if we invest in recovery. We cannot do so with a must be heard. party that says all the time that we should remove the fiscal stimulus. The only way forward for this economy Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister keeps saying that at the moment is to maintain the fiscal stimulus and there is no connection between the Bill and the action ensure that we have growth in the economy. that we are seeing from the trade union, yet his own Business Minister, the right hon. Member for Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): In June, Wolverhampton, South-East (Mr. McFadden), said and again in July, I asked the Prime Minister whether he yesterday in the House of Commons that would do the right thing and break up the biggest “since the Government said that we would not proceed with the banks. Yesterday, the Governor of the Bank of England Bill…we have seen…a return to the destructive pattern of industrial also repeated his view that the banks should be split up. disputes”.—[Official Report, 20 October 2009; Vol. 497, c. 789.] Is the Governor wrong? Even his Minister says that there is a connection. Is it not the case that this trade union can sense weakness, The Prime Minister: The reforms that we are bringing and it sees weakness in this Prime Minister and this into the banking system will include greater competition Government? in banking. We will have a judgment from the European Commission soon, which we are supporting, that will The Prime Minister: I would have thought that a allow more competition in British banking. As for the Conservative Opposition would be trying to ensure that restructuring of the banking system and whether there this strike did not take place. I would have thought should be investment banks on one side and retail-only that they would say that people should negotiate and banks on the other, the right hon. Gentleman must that there should be arbitration if necessary. I would remember that Northern Rock was effectively a retail have thought that they would have repeated with me bank and it collapsed. Lehman Brothers was effectively that this is a counter-productive strike and that it could an investment bank without a retail bank and it collapsed. be resolved only by proper negotiation and arbitration. The difference between retail and investment banks is I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to reflect on his not the cause of the problem. The cause of the problem comments as to whether anything that he is saying is is that banks have been insufficiently regulated at a making it easier for us to solve what is a difficult global level and we have to set the standards for that for dispute. the future. We will be doing that at the G20 Finance Mr. Cameron: The way to stop these strikes and this Ministers summit in a few weeks’ time. militancy is to show some leadership, some backbone and some courage. Are we really going to spend another Mr. Clegg: The basic failings that let the banks bring six months with a Prime Minister who cannot give a this economy to its knees are still in place. In fact, the straight answer, who cannot pass his own legislation, position is worse than it was before. The banks are and who sits in his bunker not even able to decide what increasingly operating like a cartel, they are underwritten sort of biscuits he wants to eat? Does he not understand by the taxpayer, they have fewer competitors and they that stopping these strikes will take some courage and are now paying themselves eye-watering bonuses while leadership, and is it not clear that he has none of that to the taxpayers who bailed them out are losing their jobs. offer? If the Prime Minister will not make up his mind about splitting up the banks, does he at least agree that as long The Prime Minister: That party has been wrong on as those banks have a blank cheque from the taxpayer it every issue affecting the British economy. They were is right to consider imposing an additional tax on their wrong on the nationalisation of Northern Rock; they profits? were wrong on the rescue of the banking system; they were wrong on tackling unemployment; they were wrong The Prime Minister: I am afraid that the right hon. on helping to protect people against mortgage repossessions; Gentleman is wrong on both counts, and wrong again. they were wrong on the fiscal stimulus; and they were The basic fact is that we expect that when we have wrong on international co-operation. On every economic completed the restructuring of the banks the taxpayer issue, they have not shown any leadership. They were will benefit financially from that, not lose money. His wrong on the recession and they are wrong on recovery. assumption that somehow we will lose money is wrong: 907 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 908 we are determined to make money out of this. On the agreement in Copenhagen, the world will drift backwards, restructuring of the banks, competition regulations will not move forwards, so I am determined to work with require the competition that is necessary in the banking other leaders over the next few months and to go to system. Copenhagen to make sure that we can make progress at The right hon. Gentleman says that the situation is this vital time. I believe that there is support in all parts worse than it was last year, but last year banks in of the House for doing so. Britain threatened to collapse entirely.We have restructured the banking system and we will continue to do so, so Q3. [294238] Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, that it serves customers properly. I hope that he, unlike West) (Con): Why should my constituents pay more tax the Conservatives, will support our measures to stimulate so that the Prime Minister’s can have their council tax the economy. frozen? The Prime Minister: The purpose of devolution, whether Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): Why should our to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or London, is to brave soldiers be asked to put their lives at risk to allow those people in those areas who are represented to re-elect the corrupt thief Karzai? make the decisions that affect their lives. If they make these decisions by doing one thing, it is at the cost of The Prime Minister: I do not accept what my hon. their ability to do other things. Friend is saying. We have an electoral process in Afghanistan that has revealed that, where there is fraud and where Q4. [294239] Jacqui Smith (Redditch) (Lab): Over the there has been malpractice, there has to be a new past month, I have been able to visit every Sure Start election. We have an election process in Afghanistan children’s centre in my constituency and to hear the that, despite the fact that the Taliban insurgency tried parents’ and children’s wishes for the future of those to prevent an election from taking place, had millions of centres. One of the children wished that his centre people voting. Our job is to help the infant Afghan could get a rabbit; one of the parents wished that every democracy, and that is what we will continue to do. I child was able to achieve their potential; but many think that hon. Members will have seen, from the parents are fearful about the plans of the Conservative comments by President Obama and all the European party to cut support for their children. What will my leaders yesterday, that we are determined to do what we right hon. Friend do to ensure that their wishes can be can to support the security during that election period, fulfilled, but that their fears will not be realised? and to make sure that, by training the Afghan forces themselves, our troops can eventually come home. The Prime Minister: This allows me to thank my right hon. Friend for everything she did to make Sure Start Q2. [294237] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): Springhill possible in the first place. I think that all Members of hospice, in my constituency, last week celebrated its the House will acknowledge that Sure Start has been 20th anniversary. I am sure that the Prime Minister will pushed forward in the past 10 years. There are now want to join me in congratulating Margaret Geoghan 3,000 Sure Start centres across the country; our aim is and others on their work. However, hospices are struggling 3,500 Sure Start centres. That means roughly five or six in the recession, due to dwindling fundraising. What in every constituency. I would say to those who are additional help can the Prime Minister offer the hospice thinking of cutting the Sure Start budget that they are movement? making a grave mistake—for the education and learning of young children, the needs of their parents and the The Prime Minister: I understand the work of the stability of these communities. We will keep the Sure hospice movement. Obviously, I have been in contact Start centres; I am afraid that the Conservative party with many people who work in it, and try to help. We wants to cut them. are trying to give the hospice movement more money to enable it to do its job, and we are looking at what more Q5. [294240] Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh we can do in future. I thank the hon. Gentleman’s and Selkirk) (LD): It is nearly 30 years since the constituents for the work that they do. I understand Conservatives decided that pensioners did not deserve that this area of health care has not had the resources the same annual increase in their incomes as people that it needs in the past and will need greater support in who were in work. Does it not pain the Prime Minister the future. We will do what we can to support a movement that after 12 years of a Labour Government, pensioners that gives dignity to people in the last years and months are being told that it may still be six years before the of their lives. earnings link is restored?

Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Will the The Prime Minister: As a result of the other measures Prime Minister commit all Departments and Government- that we are taking, pensioners have received more than controlled organisations to reducing their greenhouse an earnings link would have granted them, because they gas emissions by 10 per cent. by the end of 2010? After have the winter allowance, free television licences, national all, what chance do we have of achieving challenging concessionary bus travel and pension credit, and this targets for later years if we do not take this opportunity year, even though inflation is around zero, the pension now? will rise by 2.5 per cent.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Mr. Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): I welcome the right that Departments have a responsibility, and so do fact that pleural plaques victims in Scotland and Northern all public organisations—and I know that many commercial Ireland have been promised the right to compensation. companies want to do this—but there can be no substitute May I ask the Prime Minister what he is going to do for for an agreement in Copenhagen. If we do not get an the pleural plaques victims in England and Wales? 909 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 910

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. to discuss this issue, and thank all those who have been I offered yesterday to meet a delegation of those Members involved in meeting me and others to discuss how we of Parliament concerned about pleural plaques, and can progress the devolution of policing and justice. This that I will do in the next few days. is the final stage of the devolution settlement for Northern Ireland, and it must be accompanied by a financial Q6. [294241] Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): settlement that makes it possible for Northern Ireland In 2005 Tony Blair surrendered Mrs. Thatcher’s EU to address its security and policing needs. We have made rebate. Next year we will be paying £4 billion more to provision in the letter that I have sent—I believe that the the EU than we did last year. Is that (a), because we Opposition parties will now have a copy available—for want to be seen as good Europeans; is it (b), because we the reserve to be available if exceptional security needs want to subsidise French, Spanish and Irish farmers; or arise in any one year. We have done so this year because is it perhaps (c), because that is the price that we have to of what happened with the killing of soldiers and the pay to let Tony Blair become El Presidente of Europe? killing of PC Carroll; we will do so in future years if such an emergency or difficulty arises. I have made that The Prime Minister: It was a negotiated settlement, clear in the letter that I have sent to the First Minister because we are part of Europe: 60 per cent. of our trade and Deputy First Minister. A secure Northern Ireland is with Europe, 3 million jobs depend on our membership is the key to a more prosperous Northern Ireland. We of the European Union and 750,000 companies trade will take no risks with the security of Northern Ireland. with the European Union. I would have thought that at this time, when we need an export-led recovery which Q8. [294243] Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): will include trading with the rest of Europe, instead of The capitalist system and the banks have made a disparaging our membership of the European Union gigantic mess not only of the world economy but of the Opposition should be saying that it is an absolutely ours as well, so why are the public services, the important element of the economic future of our country. pensioners, the poor and the working class people of this country having to pay for it? Will the Prime Q7. [294242] Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) Minister ensure that the next Labour Government will (Lab/Co-op): I declare a personal interest in the subject do something about the banks, so that this never matter of this question. The Prime Minister will be happens again? aware of a report launched this week by Diabetes UK that indicates that up to 7 million people have contracted The Prime Minister: The reason that we took action pre-diabetes, which makes them 15 times more likely to on the banks was not to save the bankers but to ensure develop type 2 diabetes. What can the Government do that ordinary people’s savings, jobs and mortgages, and to encourage our communities to eat more healthily the businesses on which jobs depend, were secure. There throughout the coming years and try to prevent this is not one saver who has lost money as a result of the serious illness? failure of a British bank to make good its promise to pay money to savers. Equally, my hon. Friend is absolutely The Prime Minister: Our proposal to deal with type 2 right: the banks have failed us in many ways. That is diabetes is to offer adults between the ages of 40 and why we are making the necessary reforms, but we have 74 an assessment of their risk of developing it. That will to make these changes globally to make them work. be a major means by which we can identify the disease, Otherwise, banks will just move from one country to help people to get on better diets and, potentially, deal another. We have to create a system of remuneration with kidney failure as well as diabetes. There is a nationwide that has global implications for all banks, rather than drive to deal with obesity, which is an issue that my hon. one that applies to just one country. We have to ensure Friend has raised. A key factor, of course, is type 2 that the banks will again lend the money necessary for diabetes. The Change4Life programme, which was set industry and for home owners, and that is exactly the up by the former Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend Government’s policy. the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), is one of the means by which we can address this. I hope that we can publicise the existence Q9. [294244] Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): of that programme for everybody who is a diabetes The Prime Minister has often emphasised how important sufferer. it is that all the participants in the forthcoming and vital Copenhagen talks should be ready to compromise in Mr. Peter Robinson (Belfast, East) (DUP): I welcome order to achieve consensus. Will he tell us on which the Prime Minister’s decision to publish his proposals British principle he is ready to compromise? How about for funding policing and justice in Northern Ireland. the third runway at Heathrow? Setting aside how he intends to assist in dealing with foreseeable but inescapable pressures, would he give us The Prime Minister: Aviation emissions will come his views on how the Government will assist if unforeseen within a total of emissions that have to be met. We have emergency circumstances arise, so that the Northern said that if we can get a climate change agreement and Ireland Executive will not have to raid their budget for Europe is able to sign up to it, we will go to 30 per cent. health, education, housing and other critical elements? emissions instead of 20 per cent. emissions. So we are prepared to go further on the level of emissions that we The Prime Minister: I praise the First Minister and will agree to, if we can get a global agreement. Far from Deputy First Minister for Northern Ireland for the way not being ready to compromise, we are therefore ready in which we have discussed all the issues that will affect to do so further if we can get an international agreement. the devolution of policing and justice. I also praise all I hope that, instead of criticising us, the hon. Gentleman the party leaders in Northern Ireland, whom I have met will support us in the negotiations. 911 Oral Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Oral Answers 912

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): the Deputy First Minister, that they are ready to move Will my right hon. Friend make a commitment that he forward now that the financial proposals have been will do nothing to make it more difficult for women agreed. approaching state retirement age to secure their state pension? Q11. [294246] Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): Given that teachers’ pay is set nationally, can the The Prime Minister: It is absolutely remarkable that a Prime Minister explain why Devon schools received political party can say that it is going to tell people in £375 per pupil less than the national average? Will he their 50s that they have to retire later, while at the same look again at the funding formula and bring to an end time insisting on giving the richest estates in the country this discrimination against children educated in the £2 billion extra in tax cuts. They should be ashamed of rural south? themselves. The Prime Minister: I am happy to look at the hon. Gentleman’s question in relation to his constituency, Q10. [294245] Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): but perhaps he would look at the bigger issue. If his The Director of Public Prosecutions recently published party goes ahead and cuts education dramatically, not his interpretation of the law on assisted suicide. just his constituency but every constituency would be Whatever his views on the subject, does the Prime affected. At some point, the Conservative party has to Minister agree that it is not for the public prosecutor to face up to the fact that it is ready to cut Sure Start, cut decide on the criminal law of this country? Will the educational expenditure in schools, cut the capital building right hon. Gentleman table a substantive motion on programme, cut educational maintenance allowances the Director of Public Prosecutions’ proposals so that and, of course, cut away all help for the unemployed. we can ascertain the will of the House on this matter? They have been wrong on the recession and they are going to be wrong on the recovery. The Prime Minister: The process that we have is right: the law is settled by Parliament. I have made my views Ms Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): clear on this, and there have been debates in Parliament. The Prime Minister will be well aware of the long The law is settled by Parliament, and if people interpret campaign to get employment rights for temporary and that law, it must be in line with the decision of Parliament. agency workers. Will he indicate when we are going to That is where I stand. get that legislation on the statute book?

Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): As someone The Prime Minister: A consultation period has started. who was engaged with working people in Northern I gather it finishes in the next few weeks and then we Ireland for 20 years, may I tell my right hon. Friend how will make the final decisions. much I welcome his statement? I congratulate him and Q12. [294247] Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) the leaders of all the parties in Northern Ireland on the (LD): The Government’s cancer reform strategy states great work that they have done to get us to where we that no cancer patient should live further than 45 minutes’ are. Will he tell us exactly what we are going to do next travelling distance from their nearest cancer treatment to ensure that this is implemented as quickly as possible? unit. Yet in my constituency, no cancer patient lives within 45 minutes’ travelling distance of the nearest The Prime Minister: I hope that, when the leaders of cancer unit in Preston. We as a local community are the Northern Ireland parties take these proposals back campaigning to bring a cancer unit to our hospital in to their parties, they will find that they command support. Kendal. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet cancer The next stage is a consultation with the community in patients, myself and local NHS workers to ensure that Northern Ireland, and that is for the Northern Ireland we get a cancer unit in Kendal as a matter of urgency? Executive themselves to trigger. I hope that, in addition to the legislation being passed in the Northern Ireland The Prime Minister: The Secretary of State for Health Assembly, the community consultation will yield the will be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman, but he ability of the Northern Ireland parties to have a cross- knows that these decisions are made by local clinicians, community vote and to go ahead with the devolution of not by central Government. We have made proposals to policing and justice. I believe that we in this Parliament bring diagnostic services nearer the community, so that will do everything in our power to make that possible, people may not in future have to travel to hospital for with legislation that would necessarily come to this their diagnosis and care. That is something that we have House, but it is now for the parties of Northern Ireland proposed should be introduced in future years, but to respond to the proposals that we have made. I have again, that depends on our willingness to fund the seen from the speech made this morning by the First capital investment of the national health service, which Minister of Northern Ireland, and from the response of I hope the hon. Gentleman will support. 913 21 OCTOBER 2009 914

Points of Order Local Health Services and Democratic Involvement 12.33 pm Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On a point No. 23) of order, Mr. Speaker. 12.35 pm Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member, who is an Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I beg to move, immensely experienced Member, knows that points of That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require Primary Care order come later. [Interruption.] Denis, I am wrong. Trusts to obtain prior approval for their spending plans; to [interruption.] Order. I say to the House that I am require Primary Care Trusts to present an annual spending plan wrong. to certain local authorities for approval; to provide resolution arrangements in the event of Primary Care Trusts failing to Mr. MacShane: Even Homer can nod, Mr. Speaker. secure the consent of the relevant local authority; and for connected There are reports in the papers this week that an e-mail purposes. of this House was used to alter the Wikipedia entry of Judging by the Bill’s placing in the parliamentary the leader of the British Conservatives in the European timetable, I harbour few illusions about the odds of it Parliament in order to remove references to his membership making it to the statute book, unless fellow Members, of what the chief rabbi of Poland called “a neo-Nazi or you, Mr. Speaker, are so impressed—clearly, you are party”. I would like you to ask whether it is possible for not—by its obvious merit as to vary existing procedure. the House computer authorities to investigate this matter, However, my Bill encapsulates a huge issue in this and and either make a statement or place a report in the the past few Parliaments: the democratic deficit in the Library, because no e-mail of this House should be NHS—the local NHS. used to whitewash away any massacre of Jews by anyone The local NHS is a huge taxpayer-funded service, in support of neo-Nazi organisations in Europe. affects everyone, is important to everyone, but is sadly totally remote from democratic decision making. Those Mr. Speaker: May I say to the right hon. Gentleman who take the trouble to get elected to secure a mandate that I was wrong, but I am afraid that he is wrong, too, can make decisions about who goes to jail, who goes to which I say in all solemnity. I recognise that he feels war, who is taxed, who has power and who does not. We extremely strongly about this matter and he has put his can make decisions about people’s daily behaviour: views on the record several times—doubtless he will do what they may say, whom they may marry, what they so again—but I am afraid that that is not a point of may buy and sell, where they may smoke and what, but order, but a point of debate. not about what happens in the local NHS in their area. Those decisions are made by enlightened quangos or Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): On a point of trusts, and they are usually a combination of medical order, Mr. Speaker. Just before the recess, the Department experts and appointees who may or may not bring for Children, Schools and Families and the Secretary of relevant expertise with them. They decide what drugs State in person announced an inquiry into Gloucestershire are available, which hospitals or hospital departments county council, and in particular its relationship with stay open, where services are, how GPs and dentists national challenge schools. On Monday of this week, shape up, and what after-hours care exists. All those one of my schools, the Vale of Berkeley college, was issues mean a lot to some people part of the time, and announced for closure. As yet, I have not seen the much to all people most of the time. report from Mr. Badman. I have asked both the DCSF MPs can protest at the actions of such bodies, as I did and the local authority for a copy of the full report. when my town lost its children’s A and E service. We Given that you, Mr. Speaker, protect Back Benchers, can plead for their interventions, as when we cajoled will you as a matter of urgency look into why that them into producing plans for a minor injuries unit. We report has yet to be made available? can present petitions, and express concerns. But the thought of allowing anyone who has gone through the Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that that also is not a point sordid process of getting elected anywhere near decision of order, and I have a hunch that the hon. Member for making has given successive Governments the vapours, Stroud (Mr. Drew), as an experienced and assiduous and has been resisted hook, line and sinker, much to the attender, is well aware of that fact. However, he has satisfaction of hospital chief executives and health service firmly registered his views on the matter, on the record, managers. and I feel sure that members of the Treasury Bench will Afraid to speak their minds, Ministers and mandarins have heard what he has to say. If there are no further have offered instead various sops. There were the community points of order, perhaps we can move on to the next health councils—well-understood sounding boards, but business. bolshie enough to get abolished. There were PALS—patient advice and liaison service—the short-lived, worthy but ineffectual feedback collector. Now there are the mysteriously named and constructed LINks—local involvement networks. All were set up by successive pieces of legislation with the function of scrutinising, informing, listening, collating, airing and hearing, involving and consulting—anything, but never deciding. All that is done on the mistaken assumption that the general public are too stupid to notice that they have absolutely no power over what happens in their local 915 Local Health Services and 21 OCTOBER 2009 Local Health Services and 916 Democratic Involvement Democratic Involvement [Dr. John Pugh] them with elected individuals who have had to impress the citizens served by the local trust, who gain community NHS. When an MP raises in this place decisions that support and approval, and who, ultimately, justify their their constituents oppose, and tasks a Minister about it, position to the people whom they serve. time and again the Minister, with almost comic sincerity, My Bill is simply a bridge to that position. It involves in Pontius Pilate fashion, says, “This is a matter for even less change, and uses existing institutions. I propose local decision making,”as though “local decision making” that primary care trusts, as currently constituted, lay implied that local people—outside the quango circle—had before the health scrutiny committees of existing councils, any part in it. as currently constituted, their annual plans and their That is a perversion of democracy, but it satisfies the big decisions—not for scrutiny or consultation, but for professionals, who like the prescription and genuinely approval, agreement and amendment. I propose a kind fear the alternative—democratic accountability. It would of democratic lock on the local NHS: a move beyond be refreshing if Ministers said what is on their, or the mere consultation. I propose a genuine redistribution of Department of Health’s, mind—what they really thought, power from one existing institution to another existing, but dare not say. What they think is that democratic established institution. This is such a good idea that I decision making would lead to unworkable populism, believe that the model has already been embraced that expert government is better than public governance, voluntarily in some areas. and possibly that the calibre of those elected is not up There are likely to be disputes of substance between to the job—they may be too stupid or ill informed, even the PCTs and the health scrutiny committees. There though many of the elected reappear on health quangos are likely to be sharp differences on how to commit as appointees wearing different hats. They really think existing resources, given that resources are always limited. that this public service wants no genuine, local public The PCT may suggest that maternity services be voice—that that way madness lies. If a Minister actually decommissioned, and the tribunes of the people—the said that, such a refreshing overt, clear declaration council—may object. What one wants, the other may would flush out this argument for the fatuous nonsense regard as plain unsafe. The Bill therefore contains a thatitis. resolution procedure including, eventually, a reference Democratically elected representatives can only espouse upwards to the Secretary of State as a last resort. naked unthinking populism—which is what is feared—when I genuinely see no reason why this model cannot they do not have to pick up the tab, run the budget or work—in fact, it does work— and produce not simply bear the consequences. Democratic bodies put up taxes, good decisions, but good decisions with a popular impose parking charges, change refuse arrangements, mandate. That would be nice. Our NHS could be reclaimed, declare war, cut benefit and close facilities. I see no without micro-management or meddling, and not with reason why they cannot make tough decisions, and no government by experts but with popular government, evidence to support that view. Democratic bodies also expertly informed. make a host of very technical decisions, competently, Question put and agreed to. when aided by good professional advice. Ordered, For the reasons that I have given—solid and good reasons—the Liberal Democrats are very comfortable That Dr. John Pugh, Andrew George, Annette Brooke, with the idea of elected health boards. We believe in Paul Holmes, Andrew Stunell, Mark Hunter, Mr. Adrian removing appointees who have been whisked smugly or, Sanders and Mr. David Heath present the Bill in some cases, humbly into power because they have Dr. John Pugh accordingly presented the Bill. impressed some other appointee who has previously Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on been whisked smugly or humbly into power, and replacing Friday 23 October and to be printed (Bill 152). 917 21 OCTOBER 2009 918 Speaker’s Statement Opposition Day 12.44 pm [19TH ALLOTTED DAY] Mr. Speaker: Before we move to the main business—the Opposition day motion in the name of the Liberal Equitable Life Democrats—I have a very brief and, I hope, pertinent [Relevant Documents: The Second Report from the Public statement to make. Administration Select Committee, on Justice Delayed: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Member The Ombudsman’s report on Equitable Life, HC 41, and for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) for raising the Government response, HC 953; and the Sixth Report on a point of order on Monday the question of whether from the Committee, on Justice denied? The Government’s Members who have incurred losses with Equitable Life response to the Ombudsman’s report on Equitable Life, can vote on the first motion today. HC 219, and the Government response, HC 569.] As in previous debates on Equitable Life, any Members speaking in the debate should follow the advice of the 12.45 pm Registrar of Members’ Financial Interests dating back Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): I beg to move, to 2003 and declare their interests, whether or not they are formally registrable. That this House notes that the Parliamentary Ombudsman has taken the unusual step of using powers under the 1967 Act to In relation to voting, I can only repeat the words of present Parliament with a further and final report on Equitable Mr. Speaker Weatherill in January 1986 in relation to Life; also notes that the Public Administration Select Committee’s members of Lloyd’s: Sixth Report, Justice denied? The Government’s response to the “In matters of public policy, it has been the long-standing Ombudsman’s report on Equitable Life, concluded that the practice of the House—originally formulated as far back as 1811 Government response to the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s report by Mr. Speaker Abbot—that there is no obligation on an hon. was inadequate as a remedy for injustice; recognises the vital role Member to refrain from voting on a matter of public policy.”—[Official the Ombudsman plays in public life; reaffirms the duty of Parliament Report, 14 January 1986; Vol. 89, c. 1013.] to support the office of the Ombudsman; believes the Government should accept the recommendations of the Ombudsman on I appreciate that that does not solve the right hon. and compensating policyholders who have suffered loss; notes the learned Gentleman’s problem—that, without speaking outcome of the Judicial Review announced on 15 October extending in the debate, he cannot put on the record his interest the period for compensation claims back to 1991; welcomes the when voting—but he has himself done so by raising this formation of the All-Party Group on Justice for Equitable Life as a point of order. Policyholders; and notes with regret its necessary formation and the fact that over 30,000 people have already died waiting for a just resolution to this saga. I have no interest to declare. Indeed, I am not only moving this motion for disinterested reasons, but moving it on behalf of more than my own party—although we feel strongly about it. Members in all parts of the House have taken up the cause of Equitable Life policyholders, and in fact the basis of this motion is early-day motion 1423, which has been signed by the remarkably large number of 337 Members, including 113 of the Government party. This motion should therefore have widespread all-party support, and the only amendment to it that has been tabled is a purely factual one; it notes that a judicial review has taken place, but makes no comment or judgment on the outcome. There is a lot of detail—legal, actuarial and other kinds—in this argument and we shall be plunged into it before long, but I want to start by setting out the broad principles that underlie the motion. From our point of view, there are two essential concerns. One of them is a human concern—a concern for human welfare and the individuals who have lost from this disaster—and the other is a constitutional concern. The human concern derives from the fact that there are roughly 1 million Equitable Life policyholders. About 400,000 policies are still managed by Equitable Life, while the other 600,000 are managed by other insurance companies. Many of those people have suffered large losses—up to half of their pension. Of those 1 million, about 30,000 have died since the original collapse of the company. Since the ombudsman reported on the subject, about 6,000 have died, and every day that passes before justice is obtained another 15 die. That summarises, in rather graphic terms, the consequences of leaving justice unremedied. 919 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 920

[Dr. Vincent Cable] but that the Government agree that there must be public expenditure. We are arguing about how that The constitutional issue is as follows. We have an mechanism will be introduced. ombudsman, and it is not a Government quango. It is a Let us consider where the debate has reached in the parliamentary institution—it was set up by Parliament past year. Our view, in moving this motion, is that the and it reports to Parliament on our behalf. The authority principles under which the ombudsman’s findings must of the ombudsman is clearly at stake. Those of us who be implemented must include, as she said, an “independent” have tabled this motion have done so to ask the Government process, which means a tribunal-like process independent to implement the ombudsman’s recommendations; that of the Government and independent of the Treasury. is essentially the basis of it. The Government have, The Government’s view is that compensation should be either in spirit or in substance, so far declined to do so. decided through a process led by, determined by and We need to remember just how important this issue ultimately decided by the Government—the Treasury. of the authority of the ombudsman is. Many people do That is now the fundamental distinction. In a way, that not attach great respect to this House—we can understand explains the heart of the constitutional problem: if the why that is the case in recent months. The ombudsman Government decide how we remedy a fault of theirs, is a parliamentary institution that is central to our wherein lies the independence of the ombudsman? That constitution. It says, “Whatever you think about your independence simply disappears. MP or other MPs, there is a body you can go to that is independent of Government. If you have been wronged Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Does through maladministration in Government or a quango, not the fault with the Government’s position extend this independent authority will investigate the matter rather further than that? Not only have they ignored the without partiality and will help you to achieve justice findings of the ombudsman and refused to accept them, through compensation, where necessary.”If the authority but they have engaged in an exercise of foot-dragging, of the ombudsman is defied by the Government in this procrastination and temporising. They have done everything major case, we will lose the credibility of a major possible to prevent this matter from being dealt with institution of the country. That is what is at stake. properly and to prevent these people from getting the justice that they deserve. Is that not the indictment Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): I declare an against the Government in this case? indirect personal interest. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this goes beyond Dr. Cable: Indeed, and I now propose to take my the argument he is making, in that there is literally no hon. Friend through this nine-year journey, the end of point in having an ombudsman unless Governments which we hope we are finally approaching. Let me turn make it a principle that they will obey what the ombudsman to one aspect of this tension between the two approaches recommends? to resolving the compensation—the Government-led versus the tribunal-led. I note that the Government Dr. Cable: The right hon. Gentleman is right; as this amendment contains the remarkable phrase that their is such an important case—it is the biggest that the scheme ombudsman has taken on—if the ombudsman’s authority is simply flouted, that makes the ombudsman redundant. “is administratively quicker and simpler to deliver”. I might go further than him by asking the following: if The idea that after 10 years the Government are invoking the institutions of Parliament are flouted, what is the speed as the basis for their case would have Sir Humphrey purpose of Parliament? That is a fundamental question. gasping with admiration at the Treasury’s abilities in this matter. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Does my hon. Friend agree that the general public, including the 1,000 Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): Just before my hon. or so people in Montgomeryshire who lost money Friend starts his nine-year journey, may I ask whether through Equitable Life, simply do not understand how he also accepts that there is a second difference between this Government can resist what seems like an act of our position and that of the Government? This is not natural justice, namely following the guidance of the simply about how much cash the Government are going ombudsman? My constituents do not follow Parliament to give as opposed to how much we think they should closely, but they feel that they are being treated unjustly give, because the Government, by partially rejecting the on a matter that could be easily corrected in just the way ombudsman’s finding, have excluded some categories of that my hon. Friend has outlined. loss and some categories of policyholder altogether. Therefore, even if they suddenly decided to become Dr. Cable: Well, it can be and, indeed, it should be. more generous in cash terms, they would already have Let me try to anticipate the Government’s concerns. In precluded a set of people whom the ombudsman rightly addition to the two broad principles that I have sketched thinks, as do we, have suffered injustice. out—the human concerns and the constitutional concerns—a third issue arises: money and finance. There Dr. Cable: My colleague is right. Of course, following is common ground on the fact that that must be relevant the judicial review, some of those categories are now when we are talking about large amounts of compensation, included; I understood the statement that the Minister but we have crossed a bridge in the sense that the made yesterday to say that the Government have accepted ombudsman has accepted that the public purse is a that specific change. So, there is wider coverage than factor that must be borne in mind in compensation there was before, but we remain with the fundamental awards and the Government have accepted, through division. their ex gratia payments proposal, that there has to be compensation. The principle that there is an issue to Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): My hon. address has been accepted on both sides. We are now Friend has discussed the cost of compensation, but united on the broad principle that finance is a factor, does he agree that it is high time that the Government 921 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 922 told this House and the taxpayer how much has been that only one member of the Government Treasury spent on evading justice over the past 10 years? It is time team, the Financial Secretary, and one member of the for the Minister to tell this House that figure today, Conservative Front-Bench team, the hon. Member for which I suspect is very large. Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), were Members at that time. We have been around this for a Dr. Cable: I had not thought of that angle, but it is a long time and a lot of people have come into the story good one. I am sure that if we were to add together the at different stages, so it is worth remembering where it legal fees and the opportunity cost of Treasury officials’ started. time, we would be talking about many millions. Equitable Life collapsed, in effect, in 2000. The first Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): Does the debate in this House, which was introduced by the hon. hon. Gentleman accept the principle that justice can be Member for Croydon, South (Richard Ottaway), was means-tested? It seems that the tribunal will have to held at the end of that year. It is worth returning to that grapple with that. If that principle is accepted, what on debate, because many of the arguments that we are earth will the Government say to those who do not rehearsing today were set out clearly and well on that make the cut? occasion. In particular, the whole principle of compensation was discussed at that time, because it was clear to those Dr. Cable: Well, indeed; I believe that the hon. Gentleman of us who had been following events at Equitable Life is referring to the concept of disproportional effects, that there was an issue of maladministration to address. which the Government have introduced. None of us The company had been declaring large bonuses far in fully understands what it means. I do not think that the excess of its profits or underlying resources for some arbitrator whom the Government have appointed years, such that the actuary responsible for it was understands what it means either because, as far as we subsequently fired by his professional body. The company can tell, in his initial report he has not tried to engage had a guarantee of annuities that assumed a continuing with that extremely difficult issue, which many of us high level of inflation, which was described at the time thought was introduced simply to evade the issue of as mathematically brilliant but economically illiterate. compensation. The question was raised, even then, as to how it could possibly have been that the Government Actuary’s Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): Does Department and the Department of Trade and Industry, the hon. Gentleman agree with the many constituents which were overseeing the matter, did not spot the of mine who are horrified that this Government have denied problem. them justice by refusing to set a timetable for payment and, specifically, by not defining what “disproportionality So, there was a prima facie case of maladministration. of suffering” actually means? Does he further agree that I recall asking the Minister at the time whether, if there the Minister should set people’s minds at rest on those had been maladministration, there would be compensation. two issues today? If he does not do so, would we be I asked that question because the Prime Minister made right to say that the Government are deliberately waiting his political reputation—a long time ago—as an Opposition for more of these people to die? spokesman arguing the case for the Barlow Clowes investors, who were compensated after maladministration. Dr. Cable: That is a very emotive way of putting it The answer I received from the Minister was that once but, in essence, the hon. Gentleman is right. That is the the ombudsman had made a recommendation, we could fact of the matter because, as I said in my introduction, proceed to compensation. We have been waiting ever every day that passes another 15 of those people die; it since for that debate to be resolved. is a sadness that many of them will never see justice. Patrick Hall (Bedford) (Lab) rose— Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): Does my hon. Friend recall the Penrose report, which gave a clear Dr. Cable: I am sure that hon. Members are anxious indication of maladministration that, at the time, was to hear me get on with the history, but I shall take one entirely rejected by the Government? further intervention now. Patrick Hall: It is important that, at this stage, the Dr. Cable: Yes, and that was the second step in the hon. Gentleman makes it clear what he understands the process. We had several years before Penrose finally compensation to refer to. I am one of the signatories of reported in 2004. Lord Penrose described the delays, early-day motion 1423, which refers to the compensation even at that stage—remember, this was five years ago—as recommended by the ombudsman. Does he agree that “iniquitous and unfair”. Indeed, he found a combination the ombudsman was talking about the relative loss of failures of policy, which are not examples of arising from the acknowledged maladministration and maladministration, and of maladministration and not that element of loss arising from the vagaries of the recommended that the matter be passed to the ombudsman, market? which is what happened. The matter was referred to the ombudsman, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dr. Cable: Yes, that is right; it has been clear from the North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) and I participated on beginning that we are talking about relative losses. It is behalf of our constituents. Let us remember that the clear that nobody—neither the action group nor anybody reference to the ombudsman was made on our behalf as else—is suggesting that wider definition. Members of Parliament—there were 898 separate Let me return briefly to the beginning of these events. complaints, submitted by large numbers of Members I do so not simply for the sake of it, but because a large on their constituents’ behalf. That is why the ombudsman number of hon. Members were not in this place when became involved. It was not an official process; it was a the original crisis broke. Having checked this, I believe process that we initiated on behalf of our constituents. 923 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 924

[Dr. Cable] concerned with Government maladministration. Subsequently, the Government rejected the idea of interim The ombudsman pursued her inquiry and finished payments, which might have speeded up payments to her work in February 2007. It was July 2008 before that suffering individuals. work was formally presented to Parliament, as a result Over the last year—this brings us fairly close to of innumerable questions posed by the Treasury under where we are today—we have had a succession of responses a process that is described as Maxwellisation. For those to the Government’s response. One has come from the not familiar with the jargon, Maxwellisation refers, I ombudsman, and we have had two reports from the think, to one of your predecessors, Mr. Speaker, as Select Committee—I notice that the Chair is here and Member for Buckingham, although he is perhaps might well contribute to the discussion. We have also more famous—or infamous—for other things. That had the judicial review. It is worth reflecting a little on Maxwellisation cost a lot of time. what the ombudsman had to say about how the We received the ombudsman’s report in July 2008 and Government responded to her report. its key findings—it is worth summarising them briefly— contained 10 determinations of maladministration: one Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West) (Con): Will the by the Department of Trade and Industry, four by the hon. Gentleman refresh the House’s memory on the Government Actuary and five by the Financial Services time scale the ombudsman had in mind and on how Authority.The ombudsman recommended remedies—that much of that time is gone? While I am intervening, may is, compensation. It is worth remembering that, despite what I put it on the record that although I am an Equitable has sometimes been implied by the Government, this policyholder I would give any compensation, were I to was not a case of a difficult lady plucking some proposals get any, to some good cause? for compensation out of the air. The recommendations rested on a solid body of reasoning that had been set Dr. Cable: I cannot find the exact phrase in the few out well in advance called “Principles for Remedy”, seconds that I have been given, but it was very clear that which explained exactly the conditions under which the process should be expeditious and humane. That is compensation should be awarded and the process that where we are in terms of the ombudsman’s approach. needs to be gone through. She also said: The ombudsman was engaging in a meticulous process “It is clear to me from the Government’s response to my report of reasoning that led to the conclusion that if there is and from the further evidence given to the Select Committee on injustice as well as hardship, a compensation process behalf of the Government…that, whatever the outcome of the should be initiated. She described in some detail what work to be done by Sir John Chadwick, a full remedy will not be forthcoming for the injustice resulting from the maladministration should happen. At the risk of boring hon. Members, it I found had occurred in the prudential regulation of Equitable is worth reading some of the key sections of her Life.” recommendations, because that is what the subsequent In other words, she had already concluded that the two years have been about. She stated: Government mechanism did not allow justice to be “My second—and central—recommendation is that the delivered through compensation and that the process Government should establish and fund a compensation scheme, was fundamentally wrong. with a view to assessing the individual cases of those who have been affected by the events covered in this report and providing appropriate compensation.” Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): She described how that should be done and her key It is interesting to note that the Government use the recommendation was that the process word “expeditiously” in their amendment. Perhaps timeliness is now very belatedly being addressed. Does “should be independent and constituted along the lines of a my hon. Friend agree that Sir John Chadwick’s remit tribunal or adjudication panel”. does not offer us the opportunity to be assured that Independence of Government was central to the there will be full transparency and fairness? recommended process. We were then given the Government’s response. We Dr. Cable: Indeed. Since the Government have declared had a response in the House from the then Chief themselves to be racing us in order to get there faster Secretary, who is now Secretary of State for Work and than the proponents of this motion, speed is no longer Pensions, which people responded to very well because the issue. They have told us that they will speed up, at she made what seemed to be a full apology and suggested long last, but fairness will become the issue. The issue that the Government would put in process a compensation will be whether the Government accept Sir John Chadwick’s exercise. We were taken aback by the fact that the findings when they appear. We will come to that. Government then issued a written response—as opposed Let me finish my reference to the ombudsman’s response. to an oral response to the House—in the form of Following the official response, the ombudsman has Command Paper 7538, which took us in a different been involved in a very tart correspondence with the direction. Several key elements have caused a great Chief Secretary. It is worth quoting one or two of the many problems to this day. The process was to be run by exchanges. The Chief Secretary spoke in this House on the Treasury, rather than independently, and payments 21 July in reply to an urgent question. In response, the were limited to post-1999 cases. That has now been ombudsman wrote a letter that has subsequently been remedied, but the limited degree of compensation excluded published. She stated: 90 per cent. of what the ombudsman had recommended. “I noted what you said in the House on 21 July, and did not The document introduced the concept of disproportionate recognise it as a true representation of my position. That said, effects through means-testing, which we have already this is not the first time that the Government has misrepresented discussed, and sought to apportion blame between different my position in order to defend its own and I suspect it will not be actors, although of course the ombudsman was solely the last.” 925 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 926

We should be under no illusions about what the 1.12 pm ombudsman thinks about the way in which the Government The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): are handling the matter. I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “Life” It is not just about the ombudsman. We have had two to the end of the Question and add: excellent reports from the Select Committee on Public “also notes the Public Administration Select Committee’s Sixth Administration—“Justice delayed”and “Justice denied”— Report Justice denied? The Government’s response to the Ombudsman’s which are well summed up by the phrase that the report on Equitable Life; recognises the vital role the Ombudsman Government’s position was plays in public life; reaffirms the duty of Parliament to support the office of the Ombudsman; recognises the Government’s “shabby, constitutionally dubious and procedurally improper”. determination to introduce an ex gratia payment scheme that is We now come to the last stage of the process, the administratively quicker and simpler to deliver than that envisaged judicial review that concluded recently. The action group by the Ombudsman; further welcomes the Government’s decision for the policyholders deserves an enormous amount of announced to the House on 20 October 2009 to widen the ex credit not just for briefing Members but for keeping gratia payment scheme to include trapped annuitants who took out policies after mid-1991; urges Sir John Chadwick to report as alive an issue that could easily have died if it had not quickly and expeditiously as possible; and recognises the impact been driven so forcefully and with such conviction. The and significant distress that maladministration and injustice have group took the judicial review option, at their own caused in respect of Equitable Life.’.” expense, to challenge the legality of the Government’s I start by genuinely welcoming the speech made by response to the ombudsman’s report. the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), and the The key point in this takes us back to the fundamentals fact that he has triggered this debate. This is a very of why we have an ombudsman. The purpose of the proper subject for today’s Opposition day debate, and I ombudsman was to remove the need for judicial reviews want to set out a number of responses to some of the of Government decisions, or the need for people to points that he made. First, however, I want to echo the spend large amounts of their own money challenging apology on behalf of this and previous Governments Government rulings in court. The review should never made by my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the have been necessary, but it was sought by the action Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), group, and it is worth reflecting on its key findings. who is now Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. The judicial review concluded that the Government’s I have made two statements already since the House position “lacked cogency”, and that the Government returned earlier this month, as I want to keep right hon. unlawfully rejected the finding that maladministration and hon. Members up to date with the Government’s caused injustice. It specifically instructed the Government work to clear up the problems of Equitable Life’s past. to assess claims going back to 1990—quite a major However, today is the first opportunity for a debate advance in concrete terms. However, as the Chief Secretary since the judgment in the judicial review brought by the pointed out in his statement yesterday, the review concluded Equitable Life members action group—EMAG—was that the matter had to go back to Parliament, so that handed down last week. the question of how the compensation process would I promised the House last Monday that I would work could be resolved. reflect on the court judgment as quickly as I could. I did It is therefore up to us, as Members of Parliament, to that, and I updated the House on the matter yesterday. I decide how the compensation process happens. Should should like to elaborate on that statement this afternoon, it happen in the way that the Government have suggested, and try to address the three points that I think are now through Sir John Chadwick’s inquiry, or does it need an uppermost in the minds of both Equitable Life independent tribunal process? I am sure that the policyholders and hon. Members—the scope of the Government agree that, for practical reasons, there is proposed ex gratia scheme, the speed with which we can no need to go back to square one. Sir John Chadwick act, and the fairness of the approach that we propose. has done a lot of work, so surely we do not want to put Before I go into that, perhaps I should first say a that in the bin and start doing something else. word about the role of the parliamentary ombudsman. In preparing for this debate, I looked back over the Of course we do not want to do that. The practical comments that I have made in the House on this subject. position is that the very useful work done by Sir John I think that I underplayed and under-celebrated the role Chadwick forms the platform on which we can build a of the ombudsman in public life. This afternoon, I want resolution to the problem. That work need not be to put on record my gratitude to her for her work, and I ditched, because it can now be taken over by an independent have made sure that that is underlined in the Government process. It can be continued with absolute confidence amendment. that the findings that are reached will be honoured, because those findings are impartial and independent. It was only right for the Government to make sure that our response to the ombudsman’s report on Equitable In contrast, we have no confidence at all that the Life was based on a thorough examination of what she Government will not simply disregard a conclusion said. It is true that we did not wholly agree with her produced by Sir John Chadwick that is inconvenient to conclusions, but we did agree on many things. Indeed, them. The evidence for that is the fact that, for the past in nine out of 10 of her findings we agreed wholly or in nine years, the Government have continually dragged part with the charge of maladministration, and in five their feet on every action that would have brought areas we believed that injustice followed. justice for our constituents. Mr. Letwin: I am grateful to the Chief Secretary for Mr. Speaker: I must tell the House that I have selected giving way at this early stage, but is it the Government’s the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. I view that they should decide whether they agree with a call the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to move it. judgment handed down by a court? If the Government 927 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 928

[Mr. Letwin] am ambitious for a speedy resolution to the matter, we took the view that the scope of the ex gratia scheme do not consider that appropriate, is that the right attitude should be widened. Therefore, we have asked Sir John to adopt when an ombudsman makes a decision or Chadwick to consider injustice arising in the period recommendation? from mid-1991. Mr. Byrne: I think that the two things are quite What will be of interest to many right hon. and hon. different, and I shall explain why in a moment. Members is that that decision ensures that a number of As I was saying, we agreed with the charge of the policyholders who are often called “trapped annuitants” maladministration in nine out of the 10 findings, and are now likely to fall within the scope of the ex gratia thought that injustice followed in five areas. To address scheme. The fact that the scheme has been widened that injustice, we proposed that an ex gratia payment means that something like up to 1 million people could scheme should be put in place. be covered. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): How Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): Can the Chief Secretary many people have received ex gratia payments? What is clarify what he means by “speedily”? My constituents the difference between the Government’s position, as watching the debate on television will want clarification. expressed in their amendment, and the Opposition’s, as We have had too many of those words. They are still expressed in their motion? A number of people in my waiting. constituency are extremely concerned about the delays in receiving compensation. I get regular letters and I Mr. Byrne: I shall deal with that question immediately. have raised the matter myself, and I really want to know Speed, as the House has urged, is now of the essence. what the fundamental difference is, as there is a lot of My goal, with the benefit of Sir John’s advice, is to hardship out there. deliver an ex gratia scheme that is administratively quicker and fairer than the approach proposed by the Mr. Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I ombudsman, and in a way that puts less of a burden on am grateful to him for that point. I shall say something policyholders. in a moment about how many people I think are now within the scope of the ex gratia scheme, but I hope that Anne Milton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for he will allow me to take a short run-up to that. giving way a second time. I would like a time scale. I The starting point for the debate about scope is the would like a date—one month, two months, three months? fact that the ombudsman acknowledged—I think in her “Speedily” is not good enough. evidence to the Public Administration Committee—that the Government could have chosen not to make any Mr. Byrne: I shall answer the question directly, but I payments at all. She also recognised that the Government want to make one or two points first. have a responsibility to balance competing demands on the public, a point that was underlined by the court last Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Can the Chief Secretary week. answer me on a matter of principle? The Government have gone for an ex gratia scheme, but I do not understand That said, however, there is clearly a moral and why, if other people have lost out owing to ethical case for the Government to provide an ex gratia maladministration, they should be excluded from payment scheme from the public purse. The question compensation. The Government have, in effect, entered then becomes, “What is the rational basis for the operation into a means-testing arrangement for policyholders in of that scheme?”Having considered that question carefully, Equitable Life. we concluded that the right approach was to look at where we agreed with the ombudsman in thinking that Mr. Byrne: That is an important point, which was injustice had arisen. We decided that that should be the acknowledged both in the Bradley judgment and again foundation of the ex gratia scheme that we put in place. in the court last week. There is no legal obligation on We lacked the information about Equitable Life Government to compensate people for a regulatory policyholders needed to understand exactly who would failure that, in large part, was caused by a failure of be embraced by such a scheme. That is why we asked Sir regulators in the early 1990s, extending up to 1998. John Chadwick for his advice on the fastest and fairest Also, as Lord Penrose says, the company itself was the way forward. That approach was then challenged in architect of the failure. Although there is no legal judicial review proceedings by the Equitable Life members obligation on the Government to provide compensation action group. The hearing took place in July, and the for such regulatory failure, there clearly is an ethical judgment was handed down last week. and a moral demand for Government to provide some It is an important ruling. I think that it takes us one kind of ex gratia payment scheme. The question then step closer to a swift resolution and the provision of becomes what is the rational basis for that scheme. The support for those who are suffering. The court recognised Government’s conclusion has been that the only rational that the Government’s basis for a payment scheme was basis for the scheme is where we agree that injustice was lawful, and it accepted that the Government were entitled caused through maladministration. to seek Sir John Chadwick’s advice in establishing the On the question of speed— scheme. We very much welcome that confirmation of the legal Anne Milton: Dates. basis of our approach, but the hon. Member for Twickenham was right to go on to say that the court Mr. Byrne: Dates will come in a moment. When the also concluded that in two areas we focused too narrowly ombudsman reported in July 2008, she suggested that a on the question of regulatory compliance. Having scheme could be established within six months and that, considered that judgment very carefully, and because I once established, such a scheme could conduct its work 929 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 930 over the course of a further two years—in other words, Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ taking us to December 2010. But we concluded that the Co-op): I can see the strength of my right hon. Friend’s approach that was recommended could be better. Indeed, argument for a different mechanism from that proposed when Sir John Chadwick, who is an independent judge by the ombudsman, but a problem is that we are still a of some repute, looked at the question, he described the long way from getting that mechanism set up. The ombudsman’s approach as difficulty is that people are rightly asking why these “at best unsatisfactory and more likely impossible”. leisurely discussions and reports are going on. Out The reason for this is that the approach that was proposed there, people are dying. Out there, people are not getting by the ombudsman and that has been rehearsed again any money. Why have not steps been taken already to by the hon. Member for Twickenham and is recommended set up the mechanism so that people can be paid out in his early-day motion entails a case-by-case review by now? My right hon. Friend needs to give us definite a tribunal or another body of the evidence of loss from indications of dates when payments can be made or individual policyholders. when a mechanism can be set up if he is to persuade many of us to support him in the Lobby later today. If we believe, as the hon. Gentleman says, that there are up to 1 million policyholders, and if we had to Mr. Byrne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that consider each of their investment decisions in the period point. It allows me to say that work is well in hand. that we are talking about, we would have to review Sir John has already set out his approach and he is something like 30 million different investment decisions. already a long way through the work. It is worth the The approach proposed by the ombudsman puts the House reflecting on the scale of the task that Sir John is burden on the individual policyholder to show how working through. He has to consider information on regulatory failure created a loss. Then the policyholder 2 million policies and information dating back to around would need to show what kind of relative loss they had 1990 on payments and investments for over 20 main suffered, which would require them to say something types of policy. That demands a review of several about a counterfactual. hundred specific policy products. It requires that data What we have asked Sir John to do is to undertake a are checked by both his actuaries and those of Equitable better way of securing ex gratia payments for policyholders. Life. The approach that Sir John proposes is to look at Sir John then has to give advice on how to assess the different classes of policyholders and understand what relative losses of the varied classes of policyholder. The the relative losses may be, in order to make sure that a only way to do this is to assess of the performance of much swifter and policy-based compensation payment the rest of the industry at the time, a process that will can be made. That will be faster than a case-by-case demand some pretty difficult actuarial calculations and review of 30 million investment decisions. the testing of a number of assumptions, not least how to most easily make payments and what their tax treatment Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I understand what the should be. We have asked Sir John to finalise the design Minister says about the amount of time and effort that of his scheme by spring 2010. needs to be put into the compensation scheme, but Dr. Cable: We all understand that the Minister has a echoing the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), perfectly legitimate role in protecting the Treasury, but may I ask him to confirm that the compensation scheme his argument seems to be that the Government’s route is will be in place in the lifetime of his Government—before designed to protect the policyholders by getting them the general election? resolution more quickly than the ombudsman. Why, then, does he think the policyholders have invested a Mr. Byrne: I shall come to that point directly, but I substantial amount of money in order to pursue a legal shall take another intervention first. action to follow the ombudsman route, rather than the one that he is recommending? Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I think the Minister is going to receive another letter from the Mr. Byrne: I cannot second-guess what was in the ombudsman for again misrepresenting what she said in minds of EMAG, but I think there were two concerns in her report about a process that she recommended could particular, both of which it was legitimate to test. The be completed within two years as a mechanism for first was the legal basis for the Government’s approach, compensation. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept which the court was happy to confirm. The second, that the term “disproportionate”, as he describes it, rightly, was for policyholders to test the scope of the ex applies simply to the different impacts on different gratia scheme. classes of policyholders if, for example, somebody had Patrick Hall: The ombudsman used the expression policy type A rather than policy type B? It is not a “relative loss”, which has been used before in the debate. means-testing measure, and that point is crucial. My right hon. Friend has also referred to that, but the Government’s favoured position is not relative loss, but Mr. Byrne: There are two points there, as the hon. disproportionate loss. I have not seen a definition of Lady said. First, on the question of relative loss, it will that. Could he cast some light on the distinction between be important to look at what policyholders would have relative loss and disproportionate loss? made if they had put their investments into a different organisation, rather than a trade-off between different Mr. Byrne: That is one of the questions on which we policies. All parties will have to come to a view about have asked Sir John Chadwick to advise. When the next how what will ultimately be a fixed pot of money is stage of the report is finished, which I hope will be in shared between policyholders. That is one of the questions the next week or two, that may be something that I that Sir John has to consider and it rightly should be a could lay before the House so that we could test some of matter for further debate in the House. the conclusions in debate. 931 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 932

Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab) rose— Mark Hunter: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he has been generous in doing so. All who are Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con) rose— concerned on behalf of their constituents about the issue will not be surprised at what I suspect will be the Mr. Byrne: I shall give way to my hon. Friend and fury of the many thousands of people who will have then to the hon. Lady. looked in on this debate and, frankly, expected and hoped—despite all the odds—for a little better from the Dr. Wright: So that the House is not misled, may I Government. Has the Minister calculated how many put it to my right hon. Friend that the issue is not the fewer people—because people with legitimate claims technical efficiency of different schemes for delivering are dying—he will have to pay by his target date of redress, but a fundamental difference in approach between spring next year? the ombudsman, who says that redress should be as of right because of regulatory failure, and the Government, Mr. Byrne: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will want to who say that they shall create an ex gratia remedy for intervene again if I pose this question. How much faster those who have suffered disproportionate loss? That is a does he think that compensation would flow to fundamentally different approach. policyholders if an independent process were set up that then reviewed the investment decisions—all 30 Mr. Byrne: It is, and my hon. Friend might want to million—of 2 million people? Will he intervene again intervene again. However, the Bradley judgment and and tell me how much faster he thinks that compensation last week’s court judgment confirmed the legal basis of scheme would be up and running? the Government’s ex gratia proposal, and that brings us to the point that there is no legal obligation on the Mark Hunter: I am happy to, because the point was Government to provide compensation for regulatory made before: the question is not about having to review failure. The ombudsman appeared before my hon. Friend’s 30 million individual cases, but about reviewing Committee, and it may have been him who asked her policyholders’ different levels of policy. With respect, directly whether she would have been content for the the Minister is making a fatuous claim. Government to accept all the recommendations and then provide no compensation whatever. I think that it Mr. Byrne: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman says was question 29 of the relevant report, and her answer that a better approach is to review different classes of was yes: she would have been, perhaps not satisfied, but policyholder, because that is exactly the approach that content that it would have been perfectly legitimate for Sir John Chadwick recommends. Perhaps the hon. the Government to provide no compensation whatever. Gentleman will answer the following question by intervening However, even though there is no legal obligation to again. What is at stake is a test of approach, and the provide compensation, all parts of the House agree that hon. Member for Twickenham prayed in aid the there is a legal and moral demand for the provision of ombudsman’s report, citing paragraph 9.27, which says: some compensation. The question then becomes, what “My second—and central—recommendation is that the is the rational basis on which to put in place that Government should establish and fund a compensation scheme scheme? with a view to assessing the individual cases of those who have been affected by the events covered in this report and providing Mark Lazarowicz rose— appropriate compensation.” Is the hon. Member for Cheadle prepared to intervene Mr. Byrne: I shall give way to the hon. Member for again and say that that is the wrong approach and that St. Albans (Anne Main) and then to my hon. Friend. we should consider providing compensation for different Anne Main: The Chief Secretary is doing a wonderful classes of policyholder, which is of course Sir John job of dancing on the head of a pin. I met Equitable Chadwick’s approach? Life victims yesterday, and the reason they have gone down their particular route is that they do not trust the Mark Hunter rose— Government. If we do not sort out the matter now, we Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): If my hon. Friend will live with that fundamental break in trust—in terms will allow me, I should say that the Minister has not of being encouraged to invest—as a very poor legacy of answered the question from our hon. Friend the Member this situation. Therefore, may I ask the Chief Secretary for Twickenham (Dr. Cable). The Minister offers what yet again to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for he calls a swifter and better way, but, if it is, why has he Guildford (Anne Milton) on the question of dates? not convinced one single policyholder—they are not Spring is not good enough. stupid—that that is the case? Mr. Speaker: Order. That was a notably lengthy intervention, but I feel that the reply from the Minister Mr. Byrne: All I can do is point to the ombudsman’s will be characteristically pithy. recommendation for, and assessment of, when her proposed compensation scheme would be up and running and Mr. Byrne: Spring is my target date for providing the have concluded its business. That best-case assumption House with the design of the ex gratia scheme. was December 2010. When we and, indeed, Sir John Chadwick looked at what running that scheme would Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD) rose— entail, we found that it was a pretty conservative estimate of how long it would take to get through the business. I Mark Lazarowicz rose— think that Sir John’s approach is right and offers a swifter route to justice. Mr. Byrne: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter). Several hon. Members rose— 933 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 934

Mr. Byrne: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the ambition and determination, given his party’s responsibility Member for Edinburgh, North and Leith (Mark for and involvement in some of the regulatory failures Lazarowicz). of the past, to ensure that the ex gratia scheme is fair to policyholders. He will not want any short-circuiting Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful to my right hon. during the review; he will want us to ensure that all the Friend for giving way again. I, unlike many colleagues, records are checked. was convinced of the correctness of the Government’s ex gratia scheme approach, rather than of an approach Several hon. Members rose— that seemed to be a lengthy way of resolving the issue. Mr. Byrne: I shall give way to the hon. Member for However, I am concerned about the time scale—and East Londonderry (Mr. Campbell). even more now. We are told that the proposals for the scheme will be in place by 2010. Allowing for the Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): natural delay to such schemes, anyway, we are probably Can the Chief Secretary not assure the House and talking about proposals coming forward next summer Equitable Life policyholders that, at the close of today’s and there will be months of debate after that. By the debate, they will receive what they have not received to time any money starts being paid out, we will probably date—clarity and certainty about the dates when payments be well into 2011, or beyond. That is unacceptable, so will be made? may I ask the Chief Secretary to— Mr. Byrne: I can only repeat the answer that I gave a Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. The moment ago. hon. Gentleman’s intervention has been quite lengthy. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The Chief Mr. Byrne: As I say, my goal is to ensure that a Secretary has outlined the work that still has to be done, scheme is up and running within a timetable that is all of which I assume will be in the framework that he administratively quicker than the ombudsman’s proposed intends to have published by spring next year. What approach, and I know that the House will hold me to further steps must be taken after next spring that cause account for delivering that proposal. the uncertainty that he has expressed as to when payments will start? Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab) I do not share this love-in with the ombudsman, who Mr. Byrne: My assessment is that payments can begin took a slothful more than four years to produce her moving quite quickly once the final design of the scheme report. Nor do I share any love-in in terms of the time is understood and provision is made from the public that the Government have taken. My right hon. Friend purse. says today that a design for the scheme will be finalised Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Is not the by spring 2010, and that seems to be much better than bottom line, then, that whenever the next general election the ombudsman’s proposal to review 30 million decisions. is held the Government will go into it having to say to However, spring is an elastic date. By what dates does Equitable Life policyholders, “We have not agreed any my right hon. Friend think that pay-outs will start? compensation for you”? Mr. Byrne: That, I know, is the million dollar question, Mr. Byrne: I hope that we will not be in that position. which I cannot answer this afternoon. [Interruption.] I know. Until Sir John has finished looking at the principles Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I want to record of how we calculate relative loss and assess disproportionate my interest as a former Equitable Life policyholder in impact, both of which we will want to debate in the relation to my pension as a special adviser. House, I cannot answer that question. I can commit to The Chief Secretary is treating all the policyholders a date for the next stage—the scheme’s design. with the most enormous contempt if he says that he will not put the responsibility on to them to assess the Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): The Chief Secretary compensation for claims that they may put in. To say is in danger of treating the House and our constituents that he is going to set up a system that will assess like fools. He tried to dance around the issue of when 2 million possible investment decisions in order to come payments will be made, and he said that Sir John forward with proposals puts the thing precisely the Chadwick would design a scheme by spring 2010. Surely wrong way round. The one way to get policyholders in a the Treasury has looked at how long it will take to position to make claims is to reverse the burden and put implement a scheme. Treasury officials tell us that it has the burden on policyholders to come forward with their been working in parallel on those issues since Sir John’s claims against a set of criteria that the Government and appointment. When we will payments be made to this House set. policyholders who have lost out? The Minister must have an indication of the timetable for delivery. Mr. Byrne: I did not quite follow the hon. Gentleman’s argument. I said that requiring individual policyholders Mr. Byrne: As I have said, the regulatory failures of to come forward and provide an explanation to a tribunal the 1990s, which we are now attempting to clear up, about how they relied on regulatory decisions that unfortunately entail Sir John having to go back over turned out to be erroneous, and then show how losses 2 million policies and information going back to 1990, were entailed, would place an undue burden on them. to review several hundred different products and to That is why the proposal from Sir John Chadwick is assess the relative losses that people may have suffered. quite different—it is to look at different classes of That will entail, quite obviously, an assessment of the policyholders to understand what their relative losses money that people could have made by putting their are and to propose an ex gratia payment scheme on that cash into alternative products. If a fair system is what basis. we want, a fair system will require a thorough examination of the records. The hon. Gentleman will share my Several hon. Members rose— 935 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 936

Mr. Byrne: I will give way one last time before I make by the crisis at Equitable Life. It is easy to get lost in the some progress. detail of the ombudsman’s report, the Penrose report, the Baird report and the report produced by the European Mr. Binley: On 15 January, the Chief Secretary stated Parliament, but at the end of the day real lives have that policyholders would be paid. Why have not the been affected by the problems at Equitable Life. The Government done any contingency work at all on this problems that arose back in the 1990s and at the turn of matter? Why did they not start the process much earlier? this decade continue to affect people’s lives today as Will he cut to the chase and tell us what disproportionality they wait for justice. of suffering really means? People out there are bewildered In their response to the ombudsman’s report, the and horrified by the Government’s approach. Government said, at paragraph 80: “Regulation is never an easy job and mistakes, even serious Mr. Byrne: In essence, relative loss is about losses that ones, will occasionally be made, but the real test for government is are suffered by policyholders once one has stripped out how it then responds.” factors such as market movements, and disproportionate So how have the Government responded? How have impact is about the effect of those losses on policyholders. they passed the test? The reality, as policyholders see it, As I said in an earlier answer, those are questions on is that at each step of the way the Government frustrated which we have asked Sir John’s advice, and I will bring the fight for justice for Equitable Life’s policyholders. those conclusions back to the House at a later stage. We need only look at the fight that we had to allow the ombudsman a second investigation into Equitable Life. Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD) rose— First, the Government claimed that it was outside her remit—an argument that was disproved by my hon. Mr. Byrne: I will give way one last time and then Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie); then the conclude my remarks. report was delayed because the Government suddenly found new documents; then the Government bombarded Sandra Gidley: I appreciate the complexity of the the ombudsman with further comments, through the situation, but could the Chief Secretary confirm that Maxwellisation process, as she sought to finalise the Sir John Chadwick has had the resources that he needs report. Then, although the report was published in to deal with it properly? Given that we get the impression July last year, the Government gave its formal response that this problem is yet again being kicked into the long only in January, rejecting some of her findings of grass, could it be dealt with more quickly with more maladministration and injustice, and thereby triggering resources? Is Sir John dealing with it full time or part the court case in which there was a judgment earlier this time? month. I am pleased to say that the Government have accepted the findings of that case, as many people were Mr. Byrne: I asked Sir John before the summer whether concerned that they would appeal and delay the process he has sufficient resources to undertake the work that still further. It is particularly welcome that those judgments we have asked him to undertake, and he assured me that include bringing trapped annuitants into the scope of he has—but as I have explained, there is a considerable the scheme. task for him to sieve through. At every step of the way, we have seen delay. Each This has been a difficult legacy from the past that the delay has put off the day when eventually policyholders Government have had to clear up. For me, the three would receive compensation for the failings of the principles are to deliver a payment scheme that meets regulator—failings that were evident from the Penrose the moral imperative to act; to deliver an ex gratia report published five years ago. Each delay has meant payment scheme in a way that is administratively simpler that policyholders have had to get by on much reduced and faster than the way that the ombudsman suggested; pensions; instead of enjoying their retirement they have and, perhaps most importantly of all, to ensure that the struggled and had to fight for justice. Each delay has right people are included in the scheme. That is the also meant that, sadly, some people will never see justice, approach reflected in the Government’s amendment, as policyholders die. The Government should be ashamed and I urge my colleagues to give it their support. of having tried to block attempts to give justice to people who have been so badly let down over a decade 1.44 pm by regulatory failure. Conservative Members have been clear throughout Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): Conservative this process. We have said that if the ombudsman found Members welcome this debate and will support the that there was maladministration owing to regulatory motion in the Division Lobby later this afternoon. The failure and that compensation was required, we would motion has cross-party support, and early-day motion accept those findings. That was our position while we 1423, which is at its core, has support from Members in campaigned for the ombudsman to be allowed a second all parts of the House. investigation, that was our position when the ombudsman The strength of cross-party support is a testament to published her report last year; and that is our position the work of the Equitable members action group and to today. the number of constituents whose lives have been badly affected by the problems of Equitable Life. Each of us Mr. Letwin: Does my hon. Friend agree that it was a will have had letters and e-mails over the course of the signal moment when the Chief Secretary announced, past couple of days asking us to support the motion, on behalf of the Government, a constitutional doctrine but throughout this whole period policyholders have whereby it was not necessary for the Government even maintained pressure on MPs to ensure that justice is to accept the findings of the ombudsman, leaving aside the done. Many Members will have received harrowing question of compensation, and drew a distinction between letters from constituents whose lives have been blighted that and a court judgment without ever explaining it? 937 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 938

Mr. Hoban: My right hon. Friend echoes an important maladministration. There is a clear distinction to be point that was touched on by the ombudsman and drawn—a clear choice to be made, to use the phraseology raised in the Public Administration Committee report. that the Prime Minister is keen on—between the approaches There is almost a sense that the Government are using of this party and the Members on the Treasury Bench. I the ombudsman’s status as an investigator rather than a hope that my comments are sufficiently clear for my judicial authority to wheedle their way out of taking hon. Friend to include them in her letter to her constituents responsibility for these things. tomorrow. I want to return to a point that the Chief Secretary made on a couple of occasions when he said that there Sammy Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman outline how is a principle whereby the Government do not compensate he would approach the issue of compensation should for regulatory failure. If that were the case, the public there be a change of Administration following the next bodies being investigated by the ombudsman would election? Would he be happy to go down the route have been excluded by the Parliamentary Commissioner recommended by the ombudsman, or would he be Act 1967, but they were not so excluded. That has led to looking for a tailor-made scheme drawn up by his the current position in which the ombudsman has the party? power to recommend that compensation should be given in cases of maladministration. Under the existing Mr. Hoban: We accept the ombudsman’s regulatory system, the Financial Services Authority is recommendation that payments should be made to excluded from the ombudsman’s remit. However, the policyholders who lost out. She was right to make her approach that the Government have developed to the points about relative loss and the impact of compensation ombudsman’s findings in this case was not raised in payments on the public purse, and I do not believe that 2004, when the ombudsman sought a second investigation anybody in the House disagrees about how that is to into Equitable Life, but emerged rather late in the day work. However, we need to consider the matter of the when the Government were trying to find a way to tribunal. Strong arguments have been made about how confound the ombudsman and confound policyholders’ it should work and why there needs to be independent fight for justice. review, but I am conscious that policyholders have waited a long time for justice, because the Government Mr. Redwood: As the Minister who promptly paid have sought to frustrate and block the process. It is all compensation, with the permission of the House, after very well for the Chief Secretary to be reasonable now, the regulatory failure in the Barlow Clowes case was but some of his predecessors have been less than reasonable. found to be maladministration, may I ask my hon. I want to see justice given to policyholders speedily and Friend to confirm that a future Conservative Government fairly. They have waited long enough, and we should would be prompt in making some compensation available implement the scheme as quickly and fairly as possible. to Equitable Life victims? We have been clear in our support for the ombudsman’s recommendations. That is our position today and would Mr. Hoban: My right hon. Friend speaks from his be our position if elected at the next general election. experience of Barlow Clowes. The Prime Minister has We have also accepted the ombudsman’s finding that tried to avoid paying compensation to people who there was a decade of regulatory failure. The Chief suffered loss through the maladministration of Equitable Secretary talked about cleaning up the mess that had Life. He is trying to block the process and has fought been left, but he should acknowledge that some of the every step of the way to prevent that from happening. I regulatory failures that the ombudsman identified happened am happy to say that we want to ensure that policyholders on the current Government’s watch. If he has cleaned receive the justice that they deserve. The Chief Secretary up anybody’s mess, it is the mess that has arisen as a was careful in his language and phraseology about quite consequence of the delays in dealing with the problem. what would happen in spring 2010, so it seems that We agree with the ombudsman that policyholders whoever wins the next general election will have to deal should receive payments for relative loss and that the with the problem, and clear up the mess that this impact on public finances should be taken into account. Government have left, in order to provide justice for We now need to understand how quickly the Government Equitable’s policyholders. can move. Since January, when they accepted some of Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): I suspect the ombudsman’s findings—they have now been forced that my hon. Friend’s constituents, like mine, have been by the courts to accept others—the Treasury has failed e-mailing him to say that they will be listening to the to set a timetable for the resolution of the problem. debate and watching how we vote. Tomorrow, as a That failure, coupled with the Government’s tactics to result of what the Chief Secretary and others have said, date, create the strong impression that the Treasury I shall write to all the policyholders of whom I am wants to kick the matter into the long grass and put it aware. Does my hon. Friend have any advice or observations off for another few months. That is not fair to policyholders that I might put in those letters about how people who who want some certainty about when they might see a have suffered incredible financial loss might take their payment. case forward from here? We have made some progress with the Government, and the Chief Secretary has announced that he expects Mr. Hoban: I have some clear advice that my hon. Sir John to put forward a design for a payments scheme Friend might wish to give her constituents. History has in spring 2010. What is less clear is when policyholders shown that this Government have consistently sought would receive their first payments under such a scheme. to block compensation for policyholders who have lost He said that the ombudsman’s proposals might not as a consequence of maladministration, whereas the mean payment before December 2010, but do the Conservative party has argued in favour of compensation Government believe that payments will be made before for policyholders when there has been evidence of that point under their scheme? Policyholders need further 939 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 940

[Mr. Hoban] appear until the start of this year. The whole process has been characterised by delay after delay by the clarity, and I am surprised that the Government have Government, and some certainty is required for our not produced an indicative timetable of what may happen constituents who have lost out. once Sir John puts forward his scheme. Perhaps when the Exchequer Secretary winds up the debate, she will Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The hon. put some flesh on the bones of what the timetable Gentleman is rightly focusing on the time scale involved, beyond spring 2010 should be. The Public Administration and other hon. Members have probed a little on that. Committee called for an indicative timetable in its report, However, I want to be clear about what he is saying and it is disappointing that the Government have failed about his party’s position on this crucial issue. Has he to establish one. decided that it is out of the question to go for what EMAG has been campaigning for, which is a completely Anne Main: Will my hon. Friend touch on the Chief independent tribunal? Is he setting aside any ambition Secretary’s words today that seemed yet again to indicate for that and saying that any influence that his party that means testing is on the agenda, and on whether the might have in future will not be brought to bear on Government are giving any steer on how the means-testing securing that? assessment will work? We have no idea what criteria the Government are thinking of using. Mr. Hoban: All I will say to the hon. Gentleman is that we want to see policyholders compensated quickly Mr. Hoban: What the Government mean by and fairly. We all need to bear that in mind when “disproportionate” is one of the matters that they are thinking about how the process might develop. By next yet to address. The Chief Secretary’s predecessor, the spring, so much work might have been done by Sir John right hon. Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Chadwick that setting up a tribunal could delay justice Cooper), was pressed on that when she made a statement still longer. We need to be really careful and to think in January. No further progress has been made on this through to ensure that we get the right outcome for elaborating on what that means, which creates uncertainty policyholders, who are waiting anxiously for some resolution in the minds of policyholders and a sense of doubt of the issue. Sadly, as every day goes by, more policyholders about the outcome. We need the Government to clarify die. I wonder whether they would thank us for further their thinking about what “disproportionate” means in delaying the process. practice. Let me raise a couple of broader issues that we need Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): A lot of Equitable to address. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Life policyholders are in great financial difficulty and West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) said in an intervention, the quite frail. Is there a possibility of interim payments to whole episode has brought into question the way in assist them, or are they going to have to wait until the which the Government approach the ombudsman’s work. very end, when everything is done and dusted with the At times, it has appeared that the ombudsman is an compensation scheme? inconvenience and an irritant, whose work should be treated as a distraction. We must remember that the Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend raises an important ombudsman is an Officer of the House, and the way in point. Some people affected are suffering real hardship, which the Government have dealt with her undermines which has been prolonged by the delay in introducing an office of the House and is disrespectful to it. The fact the scheme. Once the Government have decided upon that the ombudsman has had to issue a further report a scheme, having received Sir John Chadwick’s on Equitable Life is a sign of how frustrated she has recommendations next spring, I hope they will consider been on the matter. that seriously. There is a real risk that the suffering and In evidence to the Public Administration Committee, hardship will continue without any clear end in sight. the ombudsman said that “the Government’s response was ‘strong on assertion, short on Anne Milton: Does my hon. Friend agree that this is facts’, and that it ‘fails to address the basis on which [she] came to actually all very simple? A lot of hon. Members will several of [her] findings’. As she put it…Perhaps another way of make speeches today, but what my constituents want to saying that is the response says that I said something different to know is what they are going to get, when, and what the what I actually said and then says it disagrees with something I calculation is based on. did not say”. I do not think that that is a very good position for an Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: that Officer of the House to find herself in. The Committee is what our constituents want to know, and it is the reported: essence of this debate and of the letters that we receive. “The fact that the Ombudsman feels that she has been I understand that Sir John Chadwick needs to work misunderstood and misrepresented is an indictment of the quality through what the scheme might look like, but when of the Government’s arguments as presented to the public.” policyholders will get money is a really important question We should acknowledge that the Chief Secretary has to answer. I thought that the Chief Secretary was going sought to redress that by recognising that the ombudsman’s to get there today: he had a little dance around it, and work has been undermined and that it should be celebrated teased us with, “I will come to that directly.” I hoped more, but of course, what he needs to remember is that that we might actually get a date, but all that we got was as MPs, we rely on the ombudsman to investigate claims spring 2010. of maladministration. To treat the ombudsman in such We have had such statements before from the a way is to undermine the office and erode our constituents’ Government. We were promised a response to the confidence in the mechanisms that Parliament has set ombudsman’s report before Christmas, but it did not up to protect and help them. 941 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 942

I mentioned regulation and compensation in an 2.5 pm intervention. The handling of Equitable Life, from start Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): I shall to finish, has undermined people’s confidence in the speak for much less than 15 minutes; indeed, I had not regulatory system. The way in which the Government anticipated speaking at all, but I rise simply to say that I have sought to block the ombudsman’s investigation regard the matter—this will not go down well in Whips’ into Equitable Life undermines confidence in the regulatory quarters—as a House matter. system. People want to know that the mechanism that is in place to protect them works and is respected, but the When our ombudsman—the parliamentary fact that the Government have sought to frustrate the ombudsman—makes a report to the House and says ombudsman’s inquiry undermines people’s confidence that injustice resulting from maladministration has not that that mechanism is working. Therefore, we need to been remedied, and when she is then moved to make a think very carefully about the relationship between special report to the House, which has happened on Parliament and the ombudsman and what lessons we only four previous occasions in the history of the office should learn from the process. of ombudsman since 1967, she is entitled to ask the House to take a view. All she can do is report to the Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): House and ask it to take a view on whether her reading Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the biggest of matters or the Government’s is to be preferred. challenges facing this country is persuading people to It is extremely unfortunate that we do not have a save for their future, particularly in the form of pensions? mechanism that gives the House collectively—I would Half the population do not do so at the moment, so a hope on a free vote, because it is a House matter—the saga such as this, in which people have no confidence in ability to determine the issue. We have not had a chance the pensions that they have bought, is an absolute to do that. It is in some ways unfortunate, but perhaps policy disaster. The matter needed addressing a long necessary, that the only mechanism that has been found time ago, and it is time the Government got on with it. is an Opposition party motion on an Opposition day. Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend is right: the episode has From the point of view of the House and the ombudsman, undermined people’s confidence. They need to have it would be much better if there was a mechanism by confidence in the pensions system if they are to save for which we could test the House’s opinion, in a genuinely their retirement, and also confidence in the regulation. independent way, on whether it wanted to accept what People will not look beyond the headlines and will not an ombudsman had said in such special circumstances. be looking at the fine detail of the Parliamentary In the conclusion of her latest and special report to Commissioner Act 1967, which set up the office of the House, the ombudsman states: ombudsman; they will just get the sense that the system “In this case, I am satisfied that the injustice I found in my that has been set up to protect them has not worked. report to have resulted from maladministration on the part of the We need to ensure that our constituents understand public bodies responsible for the prudential regulation of the Society has not so far been remedied. I am also satisfied, for the that the actions that have been taken and that the reasons I have given above, that it will not be so remedied processes that have been put in place to protect them are whatever the outcome of the work yet to be done by Sir John now effective and working. Once we get people to trust Chadwick…I consider that it is appropriate to draw this to those processes, perhaps we will see an increase in Parliament’s attention, given the scale of the injustice I have saving for retirement. found and the nature of the Government’s response—which In conclusion, because I am conscious that other means that this injustice will not appropriately be remedied.” Members of the House want to take part in the debate— Mr. Heald: May I say how much I agree with the hon. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Before the hon. Gentleman that there should be a procedure to bring an Gentleman concludes, will he give way? ombudsman’s recommendation in a special report before the House automatically? If he would like to refer the Mr. Hoban: No. I have been generous in taking matter to the Procedure Committee, I would be happy interventions and have gone on for rather longer than I to support him, and if he wants to table an early-day had hoped, and I am coming to the conclusion of my motion, I would be happy to put my name to it, because speech. it is important that the ombudsman is respected, and I ask those from across the House who signed early-day there should be a proper procedure for the House to motion 1423 to vote in favour of the motion. That consider such a matter. would be a clear sign to the policyholders that we are united in support of their campaign for justice, and a Dr. Wright: That is a very fine offer and I shall sign to the Treasury that the House wants speedy action certainly take it up. to resolve the problem as soon as possible, and will not I am quite realistic about this. Such things test every tolerate any more delays, obstruction or prevarication. Government. It is quite proper for a Government to say, It is not a partisan issue; it is about justice for policyholders, “If we were to provide a remedy of the kind that the who put their faith in a regulatory system that has let ombudsman suggests in this case, or indeed in any other them down. It is time for Members on both sides of the case, there would be a cost.” In this case, the cost is House to say to the Government that enough is enough, substantial—there can be no equivocation about that. and that justice must be done. The figures look slightly less daunting than they did a Several hon. Members rose— couple of years ago—we now know how to use these big numbers. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind all hon. It is in the public interest for the Government to Members that Mr. Speaker has imposed a 15-minute point to the sizeable public expenditure implications of limit on contributions from Back Benchers. the recommendations, but there is a larger public interest 943 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 944

[Dr. Tony Wright] what happened to those policyholders. It was only late in the day during the ombudsman’s inquiries that the in maintaining the integrity of the ombudsman system. Government suddenly announced the doctrine that they If we start to chip away at that and say, “Oh well, we’ll would not compensate for regulatory failure. The accept some of her findings, but reject others,” we chip ombudsman rightly said to that, “Well, I wish that the away at the ombudsman system. This House decided to Government had said that at the beginning of my set up a system of independent investigation of the inquiry.” When she was carrying out her inquiry, those actions of public bodies, including Departments, and bodies were not immune from ombudsman investigation having adopted such a system we cannot—except in the or from paying compensation for regulatory failure. most exceptional circumstances—say, “Well, actually, The principle that the ombudsman advances is the we do not like the findings, leaving aside the question of same as the principle she advances in every other case any remedy.” that she investigates. When she finds maladministration by a public body, the people affected should be put back Mr. Byrne: I agree with much of what my hon. Friend into the position that they would have been in had the says, but if a parliamentary ombudsman finds an injustice maladministration not occurred. She has applied exactly and proposes a remedy that is, let us say for the sake of the same principle in this case as in every other case that argument, wrong and the Government propose a different she investigates. The question for the House—I keep remedy, that automatically breaks the link between the saying “for the House” because it is for the House to injustice identified and the remedy on offer. What is the decide and not the Government—is whether it wants to right way to approach that question, when a legitimate adhere to that principle or not. If it does, it will have debate may be had about the range of remedies that to go with the ombudsman’s principle of redress in this may address the injustice that the ombudsman has case, which would mean that all those who have suffered rightly identified? I am sure that my hon. Friend would loss as a result of maladministration must have some agree that it would always be unsafe, in any area of remedy. When the Government say, on seeing the big public life, to receive arguments and proposals as if they numbers, “We will only, for the sake of charity, compensate were written on tablets of stone. No matter who produces those who have suffered disproportionately,” the those conclusions, there must always be a way of testing ombudsman rightly says that that is not consistent with them in case the remedies proposed are incorrect. the principles of her office. Dr. Wright: We are getting into interesting territory, The fundamental point is that we have to decide, not and I am not sure how much further the House wishes as party people—that is how we do everything else in to go, even though it is important territory. When the this place and it often demeans us—but as House ombudsman was established 42 years ago, it was not people, whether we want to assert the integrity of the said in the legislation that the ombudsman’s findings office of the parliamentary ombudsman, which this would be binding. It was said that after recommendations House established more than 40 years ago, or want to were made, a response would be made. The assumption see it progressively undermined. That is the fundamental has always been that those recommendations would issue and that is why I shall support the motion, although carry an authority with them and be routinely accepted. as I said earlier, I wish that we were having a free vote On the whole, that process has worked over the years. on the ombudsman’s report itself. We get into difficulties if Governments start saying that they want to depart from that convention, to pick 2.18 pm and choose between findings and to vary the remedies Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I shall also try recommended by the ombudsman. to be brief, because the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said so much of what I wish to say, Mr. Heald: The hon. Gentleman will know that for but said it a great deal better than I could ever have many weeks the shadow Leader of the House has asked said it. for a debate on the special report from the ombudsman. That is the answer to the Minister’s question—if the I first wish to congratulate EMAG. I am incredibly Government want to do something that differs from the conscious of the many members of the action group recommendations, they should table a motion to be and their appointed leadership who took the difficult debated and voted on by the House. decision to put themselves at risk and raise the resources to proceed with a judicial review. They have been Dr. Wright: The hon. Gentleman is right. It is also utterly vindicated by the court, which accepted most of right that we should have this discussion. Having made the principles that they brought before it, and changed a decision, the Government should put their case in the the likely outcome for the many policyholders who best way that they can, and my right hon. Friend the lost money in Equitable Life because of regulatory Chief Secretary is doing that. He made some important maladministration. Those people deserve credit from points about the mechanics of delivering redress systems, this House. but the fundamental points are still at issue. Only the I also join in the sentiment that the judicial review has House can come to a view on those. been a marked success for Parliament and the parliamentary The ombudsman has settled views on how redress ombudsman. When the ombudsman produced her report, should follow from findings of maladministration leading I was incredibly impressed, like many others, by the to injustice. Redress is part of the system. We are not degree of detail, care and objectivity that were so evidently compensating for the mismanagement of the Equitable present in the analysis of the circumstances and the Life company, or for what happened to the markets that carefully drawn conclusions that she reached. I am made life more difficult than it would have been otherwise shocked, therefore, by the Treasury response, which in for policyholders, but we are compensating for that many ways was arrogant, superficial and dismissive, element of serial regulatory failure that contributed to and not the kind of response deserved by the work, 945 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 946 thought and care that went into the ombudsman’s initial What we have heard from Treasury Ministers today report. In a sense, the response was a comment on the seems to conflict with that statement. Therefore, I hope Treasury’s view of the ombudsman system. finally to hear in the winding-up speech a definition of “disproportionate impact”. I certainly do not want to Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): I argue against a principle if the Government have already cannot think of another instance in which we have seen abandoned it, but it did not sound to me, from the Chief the Government respond to an ombudsman’s report in Secretary’s opening speech, that they have. a remotely similar way. It seems that this is unprecedented. Does the hon. Lady agree? Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Like many of us, the Susan Kramer: I very much agree with the hon. hon. Lady has received many representations from Lady’s comments. I also say to the Exchequer Secretary constituents and others. Has she received any representation that we saw today a repeat of some of that attitude from any policyholder who feels that they suffered, or when the ombudsman’s timetable for delivering whom she believes suffered, merely a proportionate compensation to injured Equitable Life policyholders impact? was questioned. Bob Spink: Does the hon. Lady agree that it would Susan Kramer: The hon. Gentleman speaks with show greater respect to policyholders were the Labour great common sense and reflects the voices in the letters or the Conservative party—whichever wins the general and representations that I have received. election next year—to undertake to make interim payments or payments in full to policyholders before the end of Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I am sorry to next year? That is a substantive issue. interrupt my hon. Friend when she is in such fine form, but does she not also agree that the fact that the judicial Susan Kramer: I can only agree with the hon. Gentleman. review struck down the Government’s alternative plans On the ombudsman’s timetable, the Government’s response shows very clearly that the Government have been on to the ombudsman’s recommendations, published in the wrong foot right the way through in their response January 2009, states: to the ombudsman? “The Ombudsman has said that the scheme”— the compensation scheme— Susan Kramer: I am glad that the judicial review has “should be established within six months of any decision being been raised, and I agree with my hon. Friend. I do not taken to set it up”— want to repeat the comments about the judicial review the ombudsman would have assumed that that meant made by my distinguished neighbour, my hon. Friend summer 2008— the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), in his opening “and that its work should be completed”— speech, because he summed up most of the situation completed means all payments made— extremely effectively. However, I want to point to one “within two years of its being established.” issue raised on the Floor: the presumption that somehow We would have been almost through the entire process there is some resistance to the principle of compensating had the ombudsman’s ideas and structure, which came out for regulatory maladministration. Comments were made of the detail of four years’ work—they were not off the by the judges on precisely that issue. We should pay cuff or the back of an envelope—been accepted. Today, attention to such comments when they come from such once again, the Government and Treasury have suggested a distinguished source. They said that they something very different from the ombudsman’s position. “found no evidentiary support, at least in the material before us, Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I totally for the claim…that Parliament ‘has accepted’ that compensation for regulatory failure is ‘not generally appropriate’”. agree with what my hon. Friend says about the detailed work done by the ombudsman. We have an ombudsman These are judges. They understand how to read legislation to consider such cases and recommend justice. Does she and Hansard, and they did not think that this House agree, however, that the Government’s response undermines had set up a barrier, or raised some principle, against the whole office of the ombudsman? Treating this report compensating for regulatory maladministration. I in such a way could create a precedent for future understand the judges words to mean that we might ombudsman reports being ignored and recommendations strongly presume that the House expects regulatory being cherry-picked. maladministration—as others have said, we are not talking about market or management failure at Equitable Susan Kramer: I could not agree more with my hon. Life—by the regulator to lead to some form of Friend. Everything that we do has the potential to compensation, or the expectation of it. create a precedent. I and, I suspect, many other hon. I do not want to take up the time of the House by Members would like the ombudsman’s role to be accepted talking about my many individual cases, but it is important and strengthened, rather than weakened dramatically. to make it clear again—this has come up in previous I want quickly to raise a second issue. What, for most debates—on the Floor of the House that people impacted of my constituents, goes to the heart of the matter is the by maladministration do not form a select group of issue of “disproportionate impact”, which is to be the highly paid, wealthy professionals who happened to principle for compensation payments. In June 2009, engage in exotic life policies. Those who have been Sir John Chadwick, who was asked to consult on this impacted in my community range across the social matter, used the following phrase: scale. Some are on very low and meagre incomes; others “I am satisfied that the Terms of Reference”— are on decent incomes. However, the notion that this is his terms of reference— a case of the rich coming with a cry of heart is completely “do not require me to engage in any form of means-testing in false, yet often that belief seems to underpin much of relation to individual policyholders.” the thinking of those on the Treasury Bench. 947 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 948

[Susan Kramer] exactly why we are holding this debate. I am sorry that this debate is being held in Opposition time, as many I want to make a plea that I have made before on the hon. Members have said, because that has certain Floor of the House: we should be able to hold such a implications for the way in which Members vote. debate in Government time. We have heard that from I said on 24 June that I did not want simply to repeat others, but we all ought to make it clear that this is our the words that had been said in previous debates. I expectation. Many people will resist supporting a motion wanted to try to bring to the House some of the tabled by an Opposition party, particularly on one of its experiences of my constituents to remind us why we are Opposition days, merely on the principle that that is debating the issue yet again, and to try to persuade the what is done. That is unfortunate, because an issue like Government to agree to the recommendations contained this, given the suffering that has been caused, overrides in the parliamentary ombudsman’s original report, any such facile view of how Parliament should function. “Equitable Life: a decade of regulatory failure”, which The Government keep challenging us, over and over was published in July 2008. again, on our position on this issue, but surely this is As we know, after the publication of Ann Abraham’s exactly the kind of instance in which the Government report, the Public Administration Committee produced should be introducing the debate, presenting it to the a report entitled “Justice delayed”, on 11 December House and allowing the House the final word. We live 2008. On 5 May this year, the parliamentary ombudsman in a parliamentary democracy, and surely we must fight published a further report, “Injustice unremedied”, which for that principle, as well as the principle of justice—real has been referred to on a number of occasions. There is justice—for our constituents. no shortage of reports, just a shortage of justice for I want to make one last remark on Sir John Chadwick. those who through no fault of their own have suffered I have great respect for him, but he has been very huge losses in their life’s savings, accrued over years of resistant to meeting the all-party group on Equitable hard work. That surely cannot be right. Life policyholders, of which I happen to be the secretary. I find that unfortunate and I take it to mean that the Like many other hon. Members who until recently debate that he is conducting is far less well informed knew little about how all that had come about, I was than it should be. I ask the House to call again on Sir not very sympathetic at first. However, as the hon. John Chadwick to rethink his interest in excluding Member for Richmond Park has said, as much as the Members of Parliament from considering these issues. world’s oldest mutual insurance company had overstretched itself and as much as the real issue was poor regulation, 2.28 pm I became more and more concerned about what my Mr. Fabian Hamilton (Leeds, North-East) (Lab): I constituents were telling me. I suspect that that experience start by thanking the Chief Secretary for reiterating the has been echoed throughout the House and that there is apology given by his predecessor, my right hon. Friend not one Member who has not received correspondence the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), from constituents about Equitable Life. which was certainly a good start. The Public Administration Committee said in the Earlier, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), introduction to its December 2008 report: who is no longer present in the Chamber, said in an “Over the last eight years many of those members and their intervention that policyholders should be able to come families have suffered great anxiety as policy values were cut and forward and apply for compensation against criteria pension payments reduced. Many are no longer alive,” and for a sum of money determined by this House. as has been said, That was reiterated, in a way, by my hon. Friend the “and will be unable to benefit personally from any compensation. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), who said—many We share both a deep sense of frustration and continuing outrage of us agree with him—that we are talking about a that the situation has remained unresolved for so long.” matter for the whole House. It is a matter that should be The parliamentary ombudsman’s second report, “Injustice discussed without partisan interest, but for the interests unremedied: the Government’s response on Equitable of our constituents only, as the hon. Member for Richmond Life”, is scathing about the inaction on her initial Park (Susan Kramer) has said. recommendations from July 2008. Indeed, she said in I was interested in the contribution made by the that report: shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. Member for Fareham “I was deeply disappointed that the Government chose to (Mr. Hoban). He said in his conclusion that the subject reject many of the findings that I had made, when I was acting of this debate is not a partisan issue. I agree with that: it independently,” is not a partisan issue, and I hope that the parties here as my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase will not make it a party political issue for their own pointed out, gain. It is something that the public look to this House “on behalf of Parliament and after a detailed and exhaustive as a whole, and that our constituents look to us as investigation.” individuals, to put right. I said that I would take a little of the House’s time in On 24 June, I had an Adjournment debate in Westminster highlighting some of the cases that have been brought Hall. I was subsequently asked to stand as the joint to my attention by constituents. I want to concentrate chairman of the all-party group on justice for Equitable on one case only, which I am sure will ring a bell with Life policyholders, which I agreed to do. There are many Members. This particular lady, Mrs. H of north many officers here today, from all parts of the House, Leeds, told me that her modest income of £200 a month who support that group and its principle of justice for was reduced overnight to less than £100, although she those policyholders. I do not want to repeat the remarks now receives about £120. She is 83 years old. She was that I made on 24 June, but I want to draw out some dependent on that £200 each month, so when it was important points from that speech, to remind hon. initially reduced by more than half, she found it hard to Members and those on the Government Front Bench cope financially. It was only the help from her ex-husband 949 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 950 that kept her going. However, she still struggles every Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I follow month, owing to the continued shortfall of income. the hon. Gentleman’s interest in such matters. Following Why, then, is the regulator to blame? We have heard a that point, does he agree that the loss of trust is number of views on that this afternoon. Surely investors compounded in this instance? Not only is there an must have understood that their investments could decrease appearance of failing to take on board the recommendations as well as increase. How could Equitable Life maintain of independent adjudicators, but people still have some a rate of return and a guaranteed annuity rate beyond trust in the courts system, and the condemnation in those of any competitor in the market? Those are the Lord Justice Carnwath’s judgment of the stance taken questions that Ann Abraham addressed in her initial is comprehensive. If the House ignores the judgment of report of July 2008, which took four years to complete. distinguished lords justices sitting in the divisional court, Her answers are at the heart of the anger expressed by it will make people’s lack of faith and trust in the House investors through the Equitable members action group. even worse, and compound this very real problem. As At the core of the problem is the fact that Equitable the hon. Gentleman says, it will create real difficulty for simply could not meet its obligations—obligations that people on limited incomes. it had made for itself, because it had made no provision for guarantees against low interest rates on policies Mr. Hamilton: That is why I agree with many right issued before 1988. hon. and hon. Members—especially my hon. Friend the We know also that, following the House of Lords Member for Cannock Chase—that the decision on how ruling in July 2000, the society stopped taking new we should respond must be a matter for this House. The business in December of that year, which effectively hon. Member for Reigate also made that point. I fully spelled the end for Equitable. More than 1 million accept that there are huge implications for the Treasury policyholders found that they faced cuts in their bonuses and for taxpayers’ money, but we have seen far greater and annuities, which caused a huge loss of income—income sums of money being used in the past 12 months to on which many of those small investors depended. After rescue our banking system—rightly, in my opinion. all, the average investment for the 500,000 individual Surely, Equitable Life investors who have lost out as a policyholders was just £45,000, which even at its height result of regulatory failure deserve the justice not only yielded no more than £300 a month, according to EMAG. that the courts have said they should receive but that the ultimate court in the land, this House, thinks they As has been pointed out, we in this country, along should have. I urge the Government to allow sufficient with many countries in the western world, have a growing Government time for a full, proper debate on this problem: the problem of an ageing population that matter, with a free vote, so that we can make our views needs to be encouraged to make greater provision for its as Members known to our constituents and give our retirement and old age, as the state will simply not have constituents the justice that they deserve. sufficient resources to provide enough money in statutory pension payments. That is a controversial issue and a If investing a large proportion of earnings results in source of great debate. The problem will only become that money either disappearing or being greatly reduced worse as the years pass and the proportion of younger in value, the resulting lack of trust in the system will people in work declines in relation to those in retirement. lead to increased poverty in old age. It will also remove any incentive to make personal provision from a lifetime’s It is already clear that my generation—those in their earnings. In the end, the state will have to foot the bill, mid-50s—will have to work longer before retirement, thus increasing the cost to us all through taxation. whichever party wins the next general election. However, unless we can save more and see our savings grow It has been said that this is a scandal that affected securely, there will be little confidence that there is any only the well-off, and that ordinary people with relatively point in saving at all. I believe—many other Members small savings were not involved. Let me remind hon. have also expressed this view—that the Equitable Life Members and the Government that EMAG told the scandal has severely reduced the confidence that the Public Administration Committee that people of this country have in the principle of saving for “the majority of Equitable Life’s policyholders had modest sized retirement. pensions and were not ‘fat cats’ who ‘risked their money to get above average returns’. In particular, the average investment Anne Milton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that of the half million individual policyholders amounted to £45,000 there are two emotions? The first is the anger of the each, which in today’s money would buy a pension paying around policyholders, who are angry that they have been let £75 per week”. down by a system that they believed in, and the second Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): is the one that he is talking about, namely trust. There I am grateful to my fellow co-chair of the all-party has been a huge loss of trust, not only in the Government, parliamentary group on Equitable Life for allowing me but in the ability of those in this House to bring such to intervene. His comments about Members of Parliament matters forward, as the hon. Member for Cannock scrutinising this issue resonate with me. Does he agree Chase (Dr. Wright) pointed out earlier. that it is important for outside bodies—and for Sir John Mr. Hamilton: I agree; indeed, the situation is much Chadwick in particular—to come before the House and more serious. People always lose confidence in the to be held to account? Does he share my concern that Government of the day, because they blame them for Sir John Chadwick has refused to come to Parliament everything. However, people have enormous trust in to interact with members of the all-party group? this House. They may not like MPs or Parliament generally, but they like their constituency MP. They Mr. Hamilton: My honourable co-chair makes a good look to us to come here and use this House to redress point. It has already been pointed out that, since Sir John injustice. It is the loss of trust in this House that worries Chadwick was appointed, he has refused to come to the me far more than the loss of trust in the Government—a House or to deal with individual Members. It is time Government whom I, of course, wholeheartedly support. that members of the all-party group, on behalf of all 951 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 952

[Mr. Fabian Hamilton] report, an almost unprecedented special report from the ombudsman and now a High Court ruling, all of which Members, were able to meet him and question him on concluded that there is an injustice that needs to be the way in which he is setting about the business of remedied quickly. It seems that it is only the Government remedying this injustice. I urge him from these Benches—I who do not get the message. hope on behalf of all hon. Members—to talk to Members Today’s debate takes place in the context of last of Parliament as soon as he possibly can. It is important week’s court ruling. Treasury officials tried their best to that he should be accountable to us, and that our spin the outcome, but it was clear to everyone, including constituents should be able to see that he is not refusing the judge, that the policyholders were the principal to talk to us. victors. I was glad to hear yesterday that the Government I conclude by once again asking the Exchequer Secretary will not be seeking to take the decision to appeal. Of to the Treasury to answer the four questions that I put course, we should remember that, were it not for the at the end of my Adjournment debate on 24 June. I tenacity of EMAG in bringing the case to court, it is hope that the House will forgive me for reiterating these likely that the Government would have got away with points. Sadly, she ignored them completely at the end of their inadequate response to Ann Abraham’s initial that debate, and I hope that she will be able to respond report. That raises this question: what use is an ombudsman, to some or all of them today. if they are simply ignored by Ministers and the First, will she amend Sir John Chadwick’s terms of Government? The fact that the ombudsman felt that reference to include all the recommendations of the she had to issue a special report to highlight the parliamentary ombudsman’s report, “Equitable Life: a Government’s inaction is a disgrace. This is only the decade of regulatory failure”? Secondly, will she agree fifth time in 42 years that the ombudsman has felt to implement EMAG’s proposal that Parliament set a moved to use the so-called nuclear option, and it shows total amount of compensation for individual policyholders how serious the Government’s negligence has been. affected by the collapse of Equitable Life, then allow the proposed tribunal to get on with the job of distributing Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Gentleman paid tribute that money quickly and fairly? Thirdly, will she accept to EMAG, and I echo that sentiment. Will he join me in that the delay caused so far has meant that many particularly congratulating Mr. Paul Braithwaite, who policyholders who suffered through no fault of their has spearheaded this campaign? He has been to the own have either endured financial hardship or died in House of Commons on many occasions to interact with the meantime? My understanding is that 15 such the all-party group on Equitable Life, and he has really policyholders die each day. Fourthly, does she accept driven the campaign forward. that, for many, the phrase “injustice unremedied” has real meaning, and that it is about time that the hundreds John Barrett: I am happy to concur with that. of thousands of investors received real justice? A lobby of Parliament by Equitable Life policyholders If the Minister can answer these questions positively, is scheduled to take place next month. I have read that this injustice could be brought to an end rapidly and the the lobbyists will be drawing our attention to the fact Government would receive the credit for its resolution. that 15 policyholders die each day waiting for justice If not, I fear that the resentment and bitterness will while the Government drag their heels. It is a great continue, with huge cost to the individuals who have testament to the policyholders that they are prepared to suffered and to the country as a whole. I remind the keep fighting for the cause not only for themselves, but House that justice delayed is justice denied. for those who are no longer with us. Let us be very clear, 2.45 pm however: they should not still have to be fighting. John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): I shall not take Like all hon. Members, I have a great many constituents the full allocation of my time in the debate to ensure who been affected by the collapse of Equitable Life. that all my colleagues who wish to speak can also get in. They include Ian Fairweather, John Stepney, James I should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Michael Morton, Hana Hornung and John Smith, among Twickenham (Dr. Cable) for his opening speech, and I many others. Those people did the right thing and made shall try not to repeat the points that he made. I advise provision for their retirement. The proposed payout anyone reading this in Hansard that his speech is worth scheme looks as though it will leave 90 per cent. of reading from start to finish. policyholders with little or no help at all. That is simply I am delighted to have been called to speak today. I not good enough. In fact, it makes me think of my remind the House of a previous Liberal Democrat constituent, Joe Shepherd, who has been fighting for Opposition day motion on an issue of fairness and justice in pensions—not against Equitable Life—for justice. At that time, many MPs from all parties got 19 years. He has gone through three MPs and when I together and did the right thing. That day, it was for the stand down at the next election, he will be into his Gurkhas, and common sense and decency prevailed. fourth. He is now in his 80s and he is the last pensioner Equitable Life policyholders, who I am sure will be from the relevant company left, yet he has still not had following today’s debate, will be hoping for more of the justice. I dread to think how many Equitable Life people same from the House today. Parliament was in the news will be in the same position. last week for all the wrong reasons, and today’s debate If Equitable Life policyholders are left with nothing, gives us a chance to show this place at its best. what message does that send out to the next generation, It is a scandal that we even need to have this debate. who are already reluctant to save towards their pensions? Quite apart from the number of times we have spoken My constituents who have lost significant sums of money about this issue in this place and in Westminster Hall are justified in asking why Equitable Life is treated so over the years, we have also had an ombudsman’s differently from a failed bank. I have no good answer report, a damning Public Administration Committee for them. At today’s Prime Minister’s Question Time, 953 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 954 the Prime Minister responded to one of the later questions This may well be the only opportunity that the House by saying that not one saver had lost money in a British has in the near future to get something on the record bank. We in this place have to ask why the Government and have a vote on this crucial issue. I urge Labour are not giving the same pledge to Equitable Life savers. Members—I understand their difficulty—to carry through My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham mentioned what they have already done in signing the early-day earlier that some Members were not elected to this motion. place when the whole saga started. Many Members, for In 2000, what happened through Equitable Life’s the same reason as me or for other reasons, will not be default was hugely painful for all those who had invested, in this place when—hopefully—the payments start to but those involved in the mismanagement of the funds go through. In my own city of Edinburgh, which has are not solely to blame. The Government as a regulator seen many Equitable Life members badly hit, I believe and the agencies that the Government established to that a number of MPs, including a number of Labour regulate financial matters have been shown, sadly, to MPs, will lose their seats at the next election. I think have failed time and again in recent years. We must be that they will have let down Equitable Life policyholders. absolutely clear that those failures were under the watch The treatment of Equitable Life policyholders is one of this Government and their predecessor, as they looked of the great injustices of this Parliament. It is a mess of into what was going on in Equitable Life. The people this Parliament’s making and we need to sort it out and who invested in good faith expected the regulatory to do it quickly. The Government have just over two mechanisms to guarantee their interests, so they feel weeks to give their response to the High Court ruling. very let down. They have, of course, been let down The great tragedy is that for too many policyholders, particularly badly. time has already run out. What action, then, can we take finally to offer some justice? The Government say that ex gratia payments 2.51 pm are an adequate mechanism for providing that, but I am Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I start by not convinced that they are. Members of the action congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham group, who have acted very effectively on behalf of all (Dr. Cable) on introducing the debate and making use the Equitable members, certainly do not feel that that is of this Opposition day to outline, as other hon. Members the case. Of course, whatever happens will cost money, have said, what could have been done differently by the but as other hon. Members have said, the Government Government. It is very important to have this debate, have found the money in other circumstances—to bail carrying on from our previous debate in Westminster out the banks, for example. My hon. Friend the Member Hall. I thus congratulate my hon. Friend on his use of for Twickenham made the point that investors in banks Opposition day time and, of course, on his excellent found their interests protected and he asked why Equitable introduction and the way in which he framed this members should not also find their interests protected afternoon’s debate. in the same way. I also pay tribute, as have others, to the Equitable Money has also been squandered in other recent members action group, to the all-party group and the Government pet projects—on big IT projects and certain Select Committee, which has examined the issue in foreign adventures have been launched against the detail. I also mention the work of the ombudsman: demonstrated will of the people living out there in the although at least one other hon. Member has commented relevant countries. Money has been found for those on how long that took, it is nevertheless part of the things, but not, it seems, in this case. It may well be process of getting us to where we are today. painful to find the resources to provide this measure of justice, as we are being invited to do, but however Hon. Members of all parties have been assiduous in difficult it is, the central issue is natural justice and it pursuing this issue on behalf of individual constituents, must be met. but also because most of us are motivated, I hope, by a sense of justice in all we do. I sometimes think that At every turn, the Government have dragged their there is little more than a great injustice—whether it be heels. Many Members have sought to focus on the to an individual or to a whole group of people—that imperative to get this issue dealt with as soon as possible can motivate MPs in taking hold of particular issues because some of the people involved are, sadly, no and not letting them go. This situation falls into the longer with us—and there are others who, sadly, will category of a whole group, as many people across the not live to see the benefit of any compensation scheme. country are affected by the issue and they will continue We must not allow any imperative to act against the to be affected by it until they have some form of issues of fairness that EMAG has raised all along. resolution. In other fields, I know that the Government have I am pleased that so many Members have had the sought to speed the processes up. Sometimes, in my courage of their convictions and signed early-day motion view, they have done so against the interest of securing 1423, which I hope is a statement of intent for later the right resolution. In a planning Bill of a couple of today. What we are debating today is essentially the years ago, for example, there was an absolute dedication same principles as are in the motion. Although I understand to getting all major infrastructure planning issues sorted that Labour Members find themselves in some difficulty out in six months; what is important to me, however, is in thinking about how to vote on an Opposition day reaching the right decisions in these circumstances. Yes, motion, I hope that they can set it aside, because, as has time is important, but it is not the only thing that we been said, today provides our only opportunity. While have to consider. many hon. Members have expressed a hope that the I have been in regular correspondence with a number Government will bring something forward to return to of my constituents affected by Equitable Life. There are the issue later on, I have to say that the evidence thus far about 50 or so of them, but I well know that there are does not lead me to the conclusion that that will happen. many more in my constituency who have not contacted 955 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 956

[Dan Rogerson] Dan Rogerson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks, although I am perhaps slightly me about it. They have contacted EMAG and may be disappointed by the signal he has sent as to which cynical about whether they will ever get the resolution Lobby he might find himself in later. I hope that he will they want and deserve. In every one of our constituencies, take the chance to reconsider that on the basis of there are so many people affected, and they are watching further contributions. what we are discussing here this afternoon. John Barrett: Will my hon. Friend expand on why the I spoke to a couple of constituents this morning. decision ought not to be made on party political lines? What touched me is that they both prefaced their remarks by saying, “Others are far worse off than I am. Others Dan Rogerson: Many hon. Members have served in are going to be affected worse. My retirement plans local government, where, when difficult decisions are have been affected, as has my ability to do things like faced, administrations often talk about being above, replace my car, which is currently on its last legs, but I and not wanting to get into, party politics. However, have lost only £9,000”—and in the other case, it was when the boot is on the other foot, they are quite happy. between £13,000 and £14,000. Those are significant When the courts have handed such an issue back to the sums for those people, but I thought it revealing that House, for it to respond to the ombudsman, hon. Members they adopted the approach of talking about others who must take a view based on the interests of Equitable were even worse off than themselves. members in their constituencies, irrespective of which We clearly need a scheme that is reasonable and takes party has put forward the proposals. I hope that they account of the constraints on resourcing, but it must will do that later, and as has rightly been pointed out, also compensate properly and it must not be a token many Members signed the early-day motion and put effort. In order to be reassured that that is the case, it their comments on the record. Therefore, if they decide needs to be overseen, as my hon. Friend the Member for to vote with us, it should be easier for them to justify Twickenham said earlier, by an independent tribunal. that decision to their Whips. He set out how that could happen without setting aside My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West the work put in up to now. (John Barrett) also drew a strong parallel with an earlier Liberal Democrat Opposition day vote on the Gurkhas. Robert Neill: I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman, I had the honour of being a Teller on that occasion, and whose experience in his constituency is similar to mine. in what I hope is a sign of things to come, I delivered the Is not the conclusion he advances reinforced by the verdict to the House. Tonight, I hope that hon. Members findings of the Public Administration Select Committee, across the House will unite to send a strong signal to which rightly made it clear that compensation was Equitable members and the Government that the “not a matter of charity, but a requirement of justice to redress a Government’s proposals are inadequate, that we need wrong”? to focus on what the ombudsman, EMAG and people Should that not be the principle that underlies any across the country have said would be the right, meaningful decision taken on this matter? compensation, and that we need to do that quickly. Dan Rogerson: As ever, the hon. Gentleman speaks 3.3 pm with great authority, and I agree with his comments. As Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Other right hon. and many hon. Members have said, we must consider an hon. Members have rightly raised the issue of the approach that is based not on issues of hardship and on proper standing and treatment of the parliamentary means-testing, but on justice. The Government’s written ombudsman by the House and by Government. At a responses have not contained a good enough apology time when the House’s reputation has taken all sorts of for the failings that occurred, and it would reassure damage over expenses, we need to remind ourselves that people to see that in writing. We need a fuller apology, people have a more fundamental question about not the something that provides hope for those Equitable members expense but the worth of the House. When Equitable who are affected, and genuine measures that offer them Life policyholders see the clear findings of the ombudsman justice. evaded and dismissed, and the work and worth of the Earlier, I probed those on the Conservative Front ombudsman’s report denigrated by Government, that Bench on their proposals, and I completely understand raises questions about the credibility of the parliamentary their desire to push forward and criticise the Government apparatus. for the speed of their response. However, bearing in Given the number of Members who have signed mind that they have added their signatures to the motion early-day motions and written replies to Equitable Life tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends, which is policyholders, those policyholders know that a clear welcome, I am disappointed that they are stepping back majority in the House wish to see proper remedy for a little from an independent tribunal, which is crucial to their injustice. But when we allow ourselves to be frustrated reassuring Equitable members that their interests are by procedural chicanery, they question the worth, relevance being looked after. and responsiveness of the House. If even a Select Committee Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The hon. being clear in its findings and conclusions on the issues Gentleman makes his case calmly and fairly, and it will can count for little, we should join the public in being have an echo in my constituency. It is good that he is worried about the role and relevance of the House. putting ideas in front of us. Obviously, in the Division, It has taken a court case to bring acknowledgement which will be on party political lines, we will vote as we of the kind that we have seen from the Government this will. May I say that I hope the Government take on week, in accepting findings of the ombudsman that board some of the ideas put forward, because an injustice they had previously resisted and rejected. I say to hon. was done and needs to be put right? I congratulate him Friends who approve of the terms of the Government’s on his thoughtful and measured case. amendment that we should remind ourselves that those 957 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 958 terms would probably be different had last week’s court Ministers may be unwilling to give a single example of case not taken place, and the Government not moved to disproportionate impact, and probably cannot provide accept the findings in the way that they did. a comprehensive definition of everyone who has suffered I am also a little perturbed that the Government have one, but could we at least be given a definition of a sought to downplay the scale and nature of some of proportionate impact? That would enable us to identify those findings, and to minimise the court’s findings and those who might be counted out, although I have certainly the way in which it came down heavily against the position not heard from anyone who feels that he or she has taken persistently by the Treasury. For the Government suffered proportionate impact. to say, “It was only on this thing that the court came down against us, and they were for us on something Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Gentleman mentioned else,” is like trying to pretend that a tyre is only flat at the resources that Sir John Chadwick had at his disposal, the bottom. It is simply not a credible position. Thankfully, and that is critical to the speed with which the issue will the House has the benefit of that important judgment, be resolved. However, EMAG has expressed the fear and the Government are now showing the wisdom and that some of the resources may be inappropriate, because responsiveness at least to accept key aspects of the one of Sir John’s most important advisers has been judgment, which I welcome. seconded by No. 10 Downing street. EMAG feels that that constitutes a conflict of interests. However, we know from the written ministerial statement and some of what was said today that serious questions Mark Durkan: Obviously there are various arguments still arise. I listened to the Chief Secretary tell us that to be made about foxes and chickens, but, given that the the Government’s ex gratia payment scheme, based on Government have accepted the court judgment, I think Sir John Chadwick’s proposals, will be up and running we should be asking how we get to where we need to be by spring. Therefore, we must ask ourselves: what exactly from here, rather than necessarily testing any of the does “up and running” mean? Does it mean that the personnel who have been involved so far. scheme is coming soon, or will be open for business This situation, which long predates my time in the soon? I hope the Exchequer Secretary will tell us later. House, has continued for far too long and affected far Mark Lazarowicz: I hope the Exchequer Secretary too many people. Those people were bemused by jargon; will clarify that point, because my understanding was then, just when the way seemed clear, there was obfuscation that the scheme would be available by the spring, not and evasion. It has been like one of those Homer that money would be going out by then. Simpson nightmares. Every time people think that the nightmare is reaching a conclusion, there is some new Mark Durkan: I thank my hon. Friend for amplifying twist, and off it goes in another awful direction. They my question. We all want to know what “up and running” are left bewildered, and with a further sense of loss, means. We also heard the Chief Secretary, in reply to a suffering and frustration to add to their ongoing loss. question, say that he had spoken to Sir John Chadwick, We need to bring this scandal to an end by providing a either before the summer or in early summer. Another remedy for the clear injustice that has been identified. hon. Member asked whether Sir John Chadwick had As the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (John adequate resources or needed more. Since the judgment, Barrett) pointed out, people are particularly at a loss to however, the scope of Sir John Chadwick’s work has understand why their situation has dragged on for so expanded. Instead of going back to July 1995, it must long, and why the Government have been so intensely go back to July 1991. I wonder whether the Chief resistant when it is possible to apply so many measures Secretary should be talking to Sir John Chadwick again to underwrite the losses—or potential losses—faced by to see whether, in the light of the judgment, he has others such as Icelandic banks. People will inevitably sufficient resources. If, as the statement admits, his and sensibly draw those comparisons. It is not a matter work has additional scope, does he not need additional of their being jealous or unduly concerned about themselves. resources? As other hon. Members have raised the Those are natural questions asked by policyholders, failure of Sir John Chadwick directly and sensible to and asked by us, as public representatives, in the House. engage with the all-party group or any other Member, If it is right to underwrite others in the context of the such engagement might be usefully explored, so that we banks because we want to underpin the stability of the fully understand the implications of the court case for finance system, surely it is right to provide a proper his continuing work. remedy for these policyholders so that we can underpin Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) (Con): The confidence in the pension system in the future. If we hon. Gentleman will know from my previous interventions want to encourage people to save for their pensions, and on the subject that many of my constituents, including if we want to encourage them to become involved in members of my own family, have been affected. Does he schemes such as this—as we are doing increasingly; agree, however, that it is strange that the Government indeed, we are imposing on them a requirement to should still hang on to some vestige of a means test for become involved—we must at least give them some people who have suffered so badly? During the banking basis for confidence. That is why we need to move crisis, they did not means-test those who might have lost further and faster. their money in a bank; they paid up. Why should this be We know that EMAG has said that, for the purpose different? of an overall outcome, it wishes the House to identify a sum that would be available to remedy its members’ Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman has made his plight. In the context of either an outright compensation point very eloquently. Many of us have questioned the scheme or the ex gratia payment scheme to which the Government’s announcement that ex gratia payments Government have referred, I hope that the Exchequer will be made to people who have suffered “disproportionate Secretary will tell us whether, if the scheme is to be up impact”. I understand why the Chief Secretary or other and running by next spring, the Government will announce 959 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 960

[Mark Durkan] find that their pension pot has effectively disappeared, or at least been severely reduced. What is the difference a clear quantum sum that will be available. Will we hear between them and those whose company pension funds from them by the time of the pre-Budget report, for become insolvent, other than the fact that they are instance? If in telling us that the scheme will be up and losing out partly because of a failure of regulation? running by the spring of next year, the Government Indeed, in many ways they are in a stronger position want us to believe that money will be paid out during than others to demand compensation. That is particularly the next financial year, when will we hear what quantum true in view of the fact that, at least for part of the time will be available? If the Government continue not to involved, the regulator of Equitable Life was the Treasury. give any indication of the amount that they intend to I was deeply troubled by what the Minister said in his make available, we shall inevitably have doubts about opening speech. He said that there was no obligation their real intent. for compensation to be provided. I cannot believe that I know that the issue of the money will be difficult, that is the case, given that the Government were effectively but in a sense it brings us to the real issue of what is or is the regulator for at least part of the time. I understand not considered by the Treasury to be disproportionate. to some extent the Minister’s concern about the impact on When a Treasury statement talks of policyholders suffering public funds of compensating all Equitable Life policy- a disproportionate impact, we know that the Treasury’s holders who have lost out as a result of the failure of real motivating concern is fear of the disproportionate regulation, but I feel that to impose the scheme that the impact of a compensation scheme on the public purse. Government are proposing goes against natural justice. If that is the real fear, let the debate be clear about that, If a loss has been suffered through maladministration, let the Government be clear about it, and let the surely the victim of that maladministration is entitled Government be clear about what they think would be a to compensation regardless of his or her personal proportionate sum of money to offer. The rest of us, circumstances. having considered the issue properly in today’s debate, There is a question that still hovers over this issue. It can then decide whether that amount is adequate, realistic is to do with the possible means testing of the victims of or meaningful. the Equitable Life collapse. The Minister has been asked on many occasions in the debate to define 3.15 pm disproportionate loss. It is not at all clear what that Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): As a number of means—how it will be determined and what it means Members have observed, this matter has been dragging for people. Given the Minister’s comments, it seems to on for many years. After all the years that I have spent me that in the circumstances under discussion, the dealing with it, I have a file full of letters and reports concept of disproportionate loss clearly amounts to a that would choke an elephant. Like other Members, I means test applied to the person who has suffered a loss have many elderly constituents who are affected by the from the failure of Equitable Life. Even if that is the collapse of Equitable Life, and, sadly, some have died case, it is still not clear how the concept is to be waiting for justice. Other Members have also made a determined, so we need clarity. Is the Minister talking point with which I strongly agree: that the Equitable about a disproportionate loss on a particular class of Life crisis is part of a much more general crisis of investment or is this about the personal circumstances confidence in savings and pensions. If we do not get this of an individual? We need to know. right—if we do not demonstrate that people can expect The Minister said that the Government’s position justice when things go wrong through regulatory fault—we was an attempt to speed up the system, and after shall have a serious problem with persuading people to 10 years it could certainly do with some speeding up. save for pensions and their own future. He attacked the alternative system involving a tribunal Many of my constituents, like those of other Members, by saying there would have to be a case-by-case have approached me and asked, “If the Government investigation—but if the Government are determined can bail out the banks, why will they not do anything to impose a concept of disproportionate loss and that is about my problem with Equitable Life?” We can argue to be conducted through a means test on the individual, about the macro-economics, the economy and the need how will that be done unless each case is gone through to bail out the banks, but it is a reasonable question. separately, looking at the loss suffered and the personal However, there is a better analogy to be made, although circumstances of the individual? It therefore does not I appreciate that it is not exact. The Government instituted seem to me that imposing this strange concept, which is the Pension Protection Fund. They rightly took action nowhere explained, will speed up the system at all. I fear to help people who found themselves in danger of the system will grind even closer to a halt. losing out when company pensions were becoming Equitable Life policyholders have waited 10 years for insolvent—ensuring that they received a large proportion some justice. We have inched forward slowly. In January, of the available funds so that they would not face I spoke in a debate on this issue and I described the poverty in retirement—and to shore up the sector. Government’s position as being like that of an old lag It seems to me that the same principle should apply in appearing in a criminal court who starts with an outright the case of Equitable Life. Equitable Life was effectively denial, but as the evidence accumulates reluctantly accepts a pension scheme for, in particular, many self-employed he will have to plead, and then makes a half-hearted small business people. Those people invested in Equitable plea and tries to wriggle out of the consequences of his Life policies because Equitable Life was seen as a large actions later. That is exactly the position the Government and very sound company. Many financial advisers pushed are in. Even after the judicial review, they tried to spin those policies over many years, especially—as was pointed things to suggest that they had in some way won it. It out by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Susan was very clear that they had not. The judge ordered that Kramer)—to small business men. Now those people this matter be re-examined. The Government must throw 961 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 962 up their hands and admit that there is a responsibility I ask the Minister to say what will happen in respect here, and introduce a system that is clear and fair, and of pensioners who have died. My understanding is that will quickly deliver for Equitable Life policyholders. their money will be forfeited altogether, so that neither I was disappointed in the comments of the hon. they nor their surviving relatives will ever benefit. If this Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban), who opened for the is the case, is there any provision for making some Conservatives, because their policy on this is unclear. compensation available to their estate even when, because From the comments made, it seemed to me that if by of the great length of time this has taken, it is not only any chance they were to form the next Administration they but their families who would otherwise lose out? nothing much would change, because the hon. Gentleman Finally, as a final act of compassion, I ask the was unwilling to answer straight questions about how Government to ensure that a compensation scheme will they would deal with the situation. It seemed to me that be in place and payments will already be being made by if the Government manage to get a system up and the time they leave office and we have a general election running by the time of the next election, the Conservatives next year. would just continue it. I ask the hon. Gentleman to make it clear what the Conservatives’ position will be. If a system is up and running by that time, will they 3.27 pm reopen it and look at the tribunal system, and give real Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): justice to Equitable Life policyholders? I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate; I had to attend a pressing constituency meeting. 3.23 pm I set up the all-party group on justice for Equitable Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I shall be very brief, as I Life policyholders primarily because of my belief in know that other Members wish to speak. the parliamentary ombudsman system. We must protect the I fervently hope that we are now reaching the end of ombudsman’s findings, and she has stated unequivocally that this decade-long saga, in which 30,000 people have died there has been regulatory failure. We as parliamentarians waiting for justice. One million investors have lost up to have to do everything possible to ensure that her findings half their pensions, amounting to an estimated £5 billion, and her position are respected in this House. and they were people who did the right thing: they As a constituency MP, I rely on ombudsmen on many saved for their retirement, but they have been let down occasions to assist me with difficulties that constituents by a series of regulatory failures by this Government. are facing. The ombudsmen work so hard and do such What does this mean in human terms, however? I sterling work that I wish to pay tribute to all of them. If shall explain by recounting just two stories that west their views are ignored, that simply chips away at their midlands Equitable Life investors have told me. It means position and undermines them. a couple having to sell their lovely retirement bungalow The all-party group has become very large, as many and move into a caravan. It means that instead of going Members of Parliament have joined it. I wish to pay to the shops with enough money to be able to enjoy the tribute to the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East experience of shopping and buying what was described (Mr. Hamilton), who is my co-chairman, to the hon. to me as “nice things”, they have to scratch around for Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer), who the cheapest reduced items just to make ends meet. It plays an active part in the group, and to my right hon. may not mean destitution in many cases, but for most of Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden such people it means the destruction of a quality of life (David Davis), who takes a great interest in it and comes that they saved for, made sacrifices for and deserved. to our meetings. Some 42 Labour Members of Parliament My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) have joined the group, some of whom represent key has outlined the history of this sorry episode and I will marginal seats. I will be watching closely how they vote not repeat it now. I do not want to dwell on the this evening, because they have joined an all-party shameful history of how this Government have prevaricated group that seeks justice for Equitable Life policyholders ever since the publication of ombudsman Ann Abraham’s and I do not see how someone who is a member of such report in July 2008, so aptly subtitled “A decade of a group can vote against this Liberal Democrat motion. regulatory failure”, although I entirely share her frustration As has been stated on many occasions, Equitable Life at the prevarication of the Government in their response, policyholders have suffered terrible financial problems which prompted her to take the unprecedented step of and are very frustrated by the lack of action. As we have issuing a second report this May, called “Injustice also heard today, every day 15 of those policyholders unremedied”. I am not going to dwell on the Government’s die. response, which was to attempt to exclude up to 90 per My other main gripe is with Sir John Chadwick. I do cent. of pensioners from any compensation at all, but I not mind telling you, Madam Deputy Speaker—although do wonder how a Government who purport to be a I will probably get into terrible trouble for saying this—that compassionate Government could allow so many people I have called for his resignation, such is my frustration to suffer for so long, ignoring the ombudsman’s findings with him and with his refusal to interact with the and trying to evade paying compensation. all-party group. I get very concerned when people who I welcome the decision of Lord Justice Carnwath and have been appointed by the Government, and who have Mr. Justice Gross backing the decision of the ombudsman such extraordinarily important roles to play and who that compensation should be paid back to 1991, not are working on issues that affect so many of our constituents 1995 as the Government wanted, and I implore Sir John simply refuse to come to the House of Commons to Chadwick to come up with a compensation scheme interact with parliamentarians. We are trying to represent with the utmost urgency so that as few more pensioners our constituents by trying to lobby Sir John. He has as possible have to die without ever seeing justice in stated that we can write to him like anybody else—but their lifetimes. that is simply not enough. As a democratically elected 963 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 964

[Daniel Kawczynski] talking about wealthy, rich people. The people whom I have met are suffering because of what has happened to parliamentarian who represents 74,000 constituents, I Equitable Life. demand to have the opportunity to call him before us My concerns relate partly to the position of the and to engage with him. His approach shows great parliamentary ombudsman. I am a member of the arrogance on his part, and I very much regret that. Public Administration Committee, so I have been part The other thing that I wish briefly to say is how of the process and a contributor to the reports that the disappointed I am with the right hon. Member for Committee has produced. I support the comments ably Rotherham (Mr. MacShane), who is no longer in his made by the Chairman of that Committee, my hon. place. He intervened on the hon. Member for North Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). I Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) to say that tonight’s vote believe that it is very important to preserve and support would, of course, be on party lines. What a disappointment the position of the ombudsman. My hon. Friend said that is. The right hon. Gentleman must have Equitable that he considered this matter to be House business, Life policyholders in his constituency who have been although he did not think that the Whips would approve affected by these events, and one would think that of that. I am thinking about it in the same sort of way. Labour MPs would, as happened in the Gurkha debate, It is very important that we should support the ombudsman show conviction by voting against the Labour party. I in her findings. have voted against the Conservative party on one I am also concerned about the decision as to who will occasion—over the privatisation of Royal Mail—although be disproportionately affected—an issue that other hon. it is difficult to vote against one’s own party and it takes Members have mentioned—and the means test. I am a great deal of courage. I might write about it in my very concerned about the situation. If someone has lost memoirs— money through accepted maladministration, after we have removed the effects of the market and mismanagement Dan Rogerson: “A Tall Story”. by Equitable Life, should a means test apply in deciding what compensation should be paid to those members? I Daniel Kawczynski: Indeed. As long as one is not am concerned about what “disproportionate effect” rebelling against one’s party all the time, the Whips means. realise— I welcome the Government’s decision to accept the Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the hon. court’s ruling and extend the number of people who Gentleman could face the Chair; it assists not just the could be eligible for payment. However, I am also occupant of the Chair, but the Hansard writers. concerned that that might mean smaller payments. Could the disproportionate impact consideration be applied Daniel Kawczynski: Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker. more stringently? I welcome the decision, but I am I was just saying that it is very important, on occasion, concerned about those implications, too. to vote against one’s party and to rebel. As a member of the Public Administration Committee I shall end my contribution by saying that I received a and as someone who has signed the early-day motion letter from the Equitable members action group containing and wants to support members of the scheme strongly the response from one Labour MP. That MP, who is a in my constituency, I feel that I will be unable to member of the all-party group, had said, “No way am I support the Government this evening. I understand the voting on this Lib Dem motion. This is just party dilemma for the Government about having to pay out politics by the Liberal Democrats and I am not prepared large sums of money, but I have a duty to my constituents, to support them.” I disagree with that Labour Member. as well as to the role that I have played on the Public Although I am not a great fan of the Liberal Democrats, Administration Committee, to follow that course of I believe that on this occasion they are raising something action. on one of their Opposition days that is of vital importance 3.37 pm to our constituents. It is not politics on the part of the Liberal Democrats, because I feel just as passionately Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): This has been a as they do about seeking justice for Equitable Life high-quality and important debate and I congratulate policyholders. I urge Labour Members to think about my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) the ramifications here. If they are members of the on kicking it off and setting exactly the right tone for all-party group, they should show respect to their decision the subsequent deliberations. All hon. Members who to join the group and to their constituents, and they had the opportunity to participate—my hon. Friends should remember that at the next general election, a lot the Members for Solihull (Lorely Burt) and for North of the policyholders will be voting on the basis of how Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) among them—spoke movingly their Member of Parliament votes tonight. about how these issues affect real people. It is easy to get wrapped up in the process and in which Committee said what about which report, but we should always 3.34 pm remember that hundreds of people in each of our Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): I am thankful constituencies have had their quality of life materially for the opportunity to speak briefly in this debate. First, affected by the matter that we are deliberating this I pay tribute to the Cardiff and south Wales committee afternoon. Others touched on the role of the ombudsman of EMAG. Many of my constituents in north Cardiff and the importance that we should all attach to upholding and the surrounding area are affected by the issues we the integrity of that position. That point was made by have debated today.I have had meetings in the constituency the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan), with EMAG and have met many individual constituents but it was also made by the Chairman of the Committee on the issue, too. I am also a signatory to early-day on which she serves, the hon. Member for Cannock motion 1423. Let me repeat that I know that we are not Chase (Dr. Wright). 965 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 966

Several hon. Members talked about the incentive to it is a straightforward motion, tabled by the Liberal save and how important that is, particularly as over the Democrats on one of our Supply days. I am delighted years ahead we will move from having a higher proportion that every Conservative Treasury spokesman, and the of people beyond retirement age in relation to those party’s Chief Whip, have put their names to it, but it is who are of working age, and how we as a country must not a party-political motion. I see no reason why Labour ensure that people are given the greatest possible incentive MPs who are members of the cross-party committee, or to save and how that incentive is undermined if people who have signed the early-day motion, should have any do not feel that they have confidence in the mechanisms difficulty in supporting it. that enable them to save. That point was made by the My second point has to do with the conduct of the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton), Government. For many of us, and for many of the who plays a prominent role in the all-party group, and people watching our proceedings either in person or on by others. Some, like my hon. Friend the Member for television, the way in which the Government have chosen Edinburgh, West (John Barrett), talked about the wider to conduct themselves will have been a source of deep economic context, including incentives to save. Finally, frustration. the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) spoke—accurately, in my view—about how many savers saw Equitable Life Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): as a gold standard institution. These were not people We were asked a moment ago what the cost of the who put their savings in a place where they expected to proposal would be, but does the hon. Gentleman agree take a high risk to achieve a high return; they were that the cost to the country is the loss of dignity in old seeking to be responsible in quite a cautious way, so it is age for policyholders, and increased contempt for this particularly unfortunate that they should find themselves place because of how the Government have behaved? in these circumstances. However, the one thing that I would say, respectfully, Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman is right that there is to the hon. Member for Angus is that I am not at all a cost beyond the financial cost, but in his opening sure, were we to have independence in Scotland, that his remarks the Chief Secretary to the Treasury— constituents would be compensated any more speedily, Geraldine Smith rose— if at all. Sir John Butterfill: Does the hon. Gentleman agree Mr. Browne: I do not think that the hon. Lady was that many of those who took out Equitable Life policies present to hear the Chief Secretary’s opening remarks. did so in order that they would not be a burden on their She may have been, but she certainly missed large families or the state in old age? That has been frustrated. portions of the debate. He coined an unintentionally laughable word that reminded me slightly of when Mr. Browne: I strongly agree, and that is why it is Hillary Clinton said that she “misspoke” when she was especially important that we consider seriously all the caught out saying something fundamentally untrue, or contributions made during the debate. of when Janet Jackson suffered a “wardrobe malfunction”. In summary, I want to speak about three matters—the It was an expression of that type. He said that he had motion before us, the Government’s pattern of behaviour under-celebrated the role of the ombudsman. That is over recent months and years, and how we might go one way of putting it. forward. First, hon. Members who have not had the Let me tell the House what the ombudsman said opportunity to study the motion in detail will see that it about the Chief Secretary. She stated on 20 August, is almost word for word the same as early-day motion only two months ago, in a letter to the Chief Secretary: 1423. It has been updated to reflect developments with “I noted what you said in the House on 21 July and did not the addition of a small clause that does not materially recognise it as a true representation of my position. That said this affect the direction of the motion or, I hope, anybody’s is not the first time that the Government has misrepresented my willingness to support it. position in order to defend its own and I suspect it will not be the Early-day motion 1423 was signed by 336 Members last.” of this House. Given that Ministers on the whole do not I can see why the Chief Secretary is likely to under-celebrate sign such motions, that shows that a very high proportion her role, but it is part of a wider pattern. of hon. Members felt able to sign this one. In addition, In her initial report, the ombudsman said that the the total of signatories includes 113 Labour Members, Department of Trade and Industry oversight had been many of whom have spoken in the debate. Therefore, I “passive, reactive and complacent”, do not take the view expressed by some Labour MPs and that Financial Services Authority regulation had that this is a partisan, party-political topic. The debate been is about the integrity of the ombudsman and the material “largely ineffective and often inappropriate”. well-being of many hundreds of our constituents. I see it as an opportunity for MPs of all parties to follow The Select Committee, which has been referred to on a through with their convictions and vote for the motion. number of occasions, described the Government’s excuses as Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): “shabby, constitutionally dubious and procedurally improper”. The costs are very important, as is the time scale involved. There has been a track record going back months—indeed, How much does the hon. Gentleman expect the proposal years—of the Government dragging their feet and behaving to cost, and according to what time scale does he see the dishonourably. money being spent? Even last year the Prime Minister promised that the Mr. Browne: Those questions have been deliberated next stage of the process would be completed by the end at length over the past three and a half hours, and I of 2008. That is the report to which we keep referring, shall come to them in the third part of my speech, but I which came in the middle of January 2009. One should am currently dealing with the motion. My point is that be extremely cautious about accepting the timetables 967 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 968

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] Secretary to the Treasury did was to reiterate the Government’s apology. Certainly, when I took part in put forward by Ministers. The fact that the Chief Secretary the Westminster Hall debate on 24 June, it was the first stood before the House today and implied that policyholders thing that I did. I am more than happy to reiterate, once should express gratitude for the swiftness of the again, on behalf of public bodies and successive Government’s response compared with the other potential Governments who were responsible for the regulation solutions on offer stretches credibility to the very limit. of Equitable Life between 1990 and 2001, the apology for the maladministration that they accept took place. Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): I have signed the That will be on the record once again. hon. Gentleman’s early-day motion and I shall support his motion. My constituents are grateful for the chance Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Does the Exchequer to get that on the record. Will the hon. Gentleman say Secretary not feel that we are in danger of rehearsing something in his closing remarks about the role of the Gurkha escapade, whereby the Government give a Sir John Chadwick? I am afraid I disagreed with the little bit more, then a little bit more? Why can we not be comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury up front and say, “We are going to pay those people and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski). I think Sir John is a who have missed out on the Equitable Life compensation fantastic gentleman with a first-class mind. scheme at the earliest point possible”? Then we can all Mr. Browne: I would love to be able to comment on be happy. Sir John Chadwick in greater detail, but I have not had Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not know whether my the opportunity to meet him. I suppose that was the hon. Friend has been listening to the debate, but one point being made by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury point on which the whole House agrees is that it is very and Atcham. Sir John should meet Members of Parliament. important that we obtain a speedy resolution. We all We were elected to represent our constituents and that have constituents who are affected, and I reiterate that would aid the process. I have no reason to doubt that he we remain committed to achieving a speedy resolution. is an honourable person. In the time available to me, I hope to cover as many of In the last few minutes available to me, let me deal the points as I can raised by the hon. Member for with the way forward. The Minister said that we should Fareham (Mr. Hoban), who spoke for the Opposition; be looking at a timetable of spring 2010. Some people my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase will be worried that that is an elastic date. He was (Dr. Wright); the hon. Member for Richmond Park notably evasive when it came to offering a specific date (Susan Kramer); my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, when people could expect to see some payments made, North-East (Mr. Hamilton); the hon. Members for not just further progress made. Even if that were spring Edinburgh, West (John Barrett) and for North Cornwall; 2010, hon. Members should remember that at current my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan); rates another 3,000 or so Equitable Life policyholders the hon. Members for Angus (Mr. Weir), for Solihull will have died between now and then. (Lorely Burt) and for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel A policy process that does not recognise the acute Kawczynski); my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, needs of the individuals concerned will cause a huge North (Julie Morgan); and the hon. Member for Taunton amount of distress. There was no talk about interim (Mr. Browne). payments. There was considerable concern about the I had better clarify matters up front, because there expression “disproportionate loss” used the Government. were some misconceptions about the scheme being up We need to make it clear that that is not some form of and running by spring 2010. The Chief Secretary said means-tested benefit, but recognition of the actual losses that there would be a scheme design by spring 2010, and experienced by real policyholders. we will move with all speed to set it up thereafter. Everybody accepts that there was fault on the part of On our relationship with the ombudsman, I reiterate the people who ran Equitable Life. Of course market that we still rebut any suggestion that there was anything forces have an impact on the value of policies, but the improper, dubious or shabby about the manner of our ombudsman’s report was concerned with the regulatory engagement with the ombudsman. The Government failure. The Government need to accept the ombudsman’s have a great deal of respect for the ombudsman, but we report, give a straight response about a reasonable also have a duty to consider the wider interests of the outcome and, most of all, reassure people across the taxpayer. country that speed is of the essence, that the Government understand their immediate human concerns, and that Geraldine Smith: It is important that the Minister they will respond to those as a priority. takes note of the ombudsman. However, it is equally important that we introduce a scheme as quickly as 3.49 pm possible to help as many people as possible. No one has The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah mentioned the financial cost, but that must be a McCarthy-Fry): I thank all hon. Members for their consideration. comments during this informative debate. The continuing scrutiny of our position is an important part of our Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The ombudsman herself parliamentary process, and I welcome it. This has also acknowledged that it was legitimate for us to take up been the first occasion for a debate since the judgment the wider interests of the taxpayer and the issue of the in the judicial review that was brought about by Equitable public purse. members action group. Constitutional matters were raised. The constitutional First, I refer to a point that I think the hon. Member balance that the legislation reached, on the one hand, for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) made about the permits the parliamentary ombudsman wide jurisdiction Government’s failure to apologise. I do not know whether and powers of determination, as well as the ability he noticed, but one of the first things that the Chief to make far-reaching recommendations, but, on the 969 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 970 other, permits a Government to reject findings and now fall within the scope of the period of injustice recommendations in certain circumstances. We did not accepted; many hon. Members have voiced concerns depart lightly from the ombudsman’s findings. After about that group. About half those people fell within careful consideration of her report, we accepted some, the scope of the injustice findings originally accepted by but, where we believed that we had cogent reasons, we the Government, and the Court has now determined departed from others. that the Government’s interpretation of injustice was The recent High Court ruling upheld a number of unduly narrow with respect to certain findings. We have those departures, and others have gone unchallenged. accepted the decision, with the effect that most trapped The Court found that the Government did not have annuitants now fall within that scope. Sir John Chadwick cogent reasons for some departures, and we have accepted commented that that would not have happened even if those findings and amended Sir John Chadwick’s terms all the ombudsman’s injustice findings were accepted. of reference to include them. Sir John is confident that Members heard my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary that additional scope will not impact on the time scale explain the Government’s approach to resolving the for resolving his work. Equitable Life issue, focusing on the scope of our ex At no time have we sought to delay matters. The gratia payment scheme, the speed with which we can act ombudsman’s report was the product of four years’ and the fairness of our approach. We are clear that work, and it raised a number of complex and difficult speed is of the essence in bringing this matter to a close. issues. None of the Government’s actions has been Two points were raised on interim payments. We have motivated by anything other than the desire to achieve a asked Sir John to consider interim payments as part of fair resolution for policyholders and taxpayers alike. the scheme. On payments to estates, that issue will be We continue to believe that this was, and is, the right taken into account when deciding on the final terms of approach. the payment scheme. Some Members, including the hon. Member for Bromley Sir John Chadwick is making good progress, and it is and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), suggested that the Court clear that the continuing priority is for Sir John and the struck down our ex gratia scheme. That is not the case. Government to get on with the work required to deliver It endorsed the Government’s right to depart from the this ex gratia payment scheme. He has already published ombudsman’s finding 3 and strongly rejected the challenge a further interim report on his progress and has invited to the Government’s decision to depart from her representations on it by 27 October. He has also committed recommendation. That is not indicative of any lack of to providing a further update before the end of the year. respect for the office of ombudsman or any disregard I note that members of the all-party group on Equitable for the plight of policyholders affected by the events at Life policyholders are concerned that he has not yet Equitable Life. managed to find time in his schedule to visit them. I Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): May I assure think that his priority at the moment is to get on with my hon. Friend that many of us are desperate to vote designing the scheme. However, I will pass on the comments for the Government’s amendment and would happily made by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, do so if she could give us one piece of information: who will know that I visited the all-party group and when will the payments be made? spoke to its members. Not many were there, but what they lacked in quantity they made up for with the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The design of the scheme will quality of their questioning. be available by spring 2010, and we will move with all As my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary said, speed to get the payments made. The motion proposes Sir John faces a complicated task. We expect him to the implementation of the ombudsman’s recommendation finalise the design of the scheme by the spring, and we for a scheme setting up a tribunal, which would mean will move quickly to consider his advice and announce a that individual assessments took longer, and it would payments scheme that is practical to deliver and fair to therefore take longer for the money to get through. policyholders and to the taxpayer. That is what we all David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con) rose— want. I have said before that I cannot see how it would bring anything but further delay to accept the ombudsman’s John Barrett rose— recommendations for a tribunal and a case-by-case Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I cannot give way; I have only individual examination. The amendment in the name of four minutes left. the Prime Minister urges an ex gratia scheme that is I want to correct another assertion. The hon. Members administratively quicker and simpler to deliver than for Solihull and for Edinburgh, West said that our that envisaged by the ombudsman, and that must be in original proposed payment scheme leaves 90 per cent. the interests of policyholders. I therefore urge the House of policyholders without help. I do not recognise that to reject the motion and support the amendment. figure, and I have seen no data to back it up. We have Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the not analysed the policyholder data so we do not know original words stand part of the Question. exactly how many people are included. However, following The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 294. our decision to include the findings previously not accepted by the Government, the period of injustice Division No. 228] [4 pm accepted goes back to the period covered by the ombudsman’s report. Having considered the judgment AYES of the Court, we think it right to accept its decision in Afriyie, Adam Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James relation to those findings. The key impact is that the Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Atkinson, Mr. Peter terms of injustice accepted by the Government now Alexander, Danny Bacon, Mr. Richard extend from mid-1991 rather than mid-1995. One effect Amess, Mr. David Baker, Norman of that is that a large proportion of trapped annuitants Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Baldry, Tony 971 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 972

Banks, Gordon Garnier, Mr. Edward Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Soames, Mr. Nicholas Barker, Gregory Gauke, Mr. David Maclean, rh David Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Baron, Mr. John George, Andrew MacNeil, Mr. Angus Spicer, Sir Michael Barrett, John Gibb, Mr. Nick Main, Anne Spink, Bob Beith, rh Sir Alan Gidley, Sandra Malins, Mr. Humfrey Spring, Mr. Richard Bellingham, Mr. Henry Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Maples, Mr. John Stanley, rh Sir John Benyon, Mr. Richard Goldsworthy, Julia Mason, John Streeter, Mr. Gary Beresford, Sir Paul Goodman, Mr. Paul May, rh Mrs. Theresa Stuart, Mr. Graham Binley, Mr. Brian Goodwill, Mr. Robert McDonnell, John Stunell, Andrew Blunt, Mr. Crispin Gove, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Swayne, Mr. Desmond Bone, Mr. Peter Gray, Mr. James McIsaac, Shona Swinson, Jo Boswell, Mr. Tim Green, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Swire, Mr. Hugo Bottomley, Peter Greening, Justine Mercer, Patrick Syms, Mr. Robert Brady, Mr. Graham Gummer, rh Mr. John Miller, Mrs. Maria Tapsell, Sir Peter Brake, Tom Hall, Patrick Milton, Anne Taylor, Mr. Ian Brazier, Mr. Julian Hammond, Mr. Philip Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Taylor, Matthew Breed, Mr. Colin Hammond, Stephen Moore, Mr. Michael Taylor, Dr. Richard Brokenshire, James Hands, Mr. Greg Morgan, Julie Teather, Sarah Brooke, Annette Harper, Mr. Mark Moss, Mr. Malcolm Thurso, John Browne, Mr. Jeremy Harris, Dr. Evan Mulholland, Greg Timpson, Mr. Edward Browning, Angela Harvey, Nick Mundell, David Tredinnick, David Bruce, rh Malcolm Hayes, Mr. John Murrison, Dr. Andrew Truswell, Mr. Paul Burns, Mr. Simon Heald, Mr. Oliver Neill, Robert Turner, Mr. Andrew Burrowes, Mr. David Heath, Mr. David Newmark, Mr. Brooks Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Burstow, Mr. Paul Heathcoat-Amory, rh O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Vaizey, Mr. Edward Burt, Alistair Mr. David Oaten, Mr. Mark Vara, Mr. Shailesh Burt, Lorely Hendry, Charles Öpik, Lembit Viggers, Sir Peter Butterfill, Sir John Herbert, Nick Osborne, Mr. George Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cable, Dr. Vincent Hermon, Lady Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr. Charles Cameron, rh Mr. David Hoban, Mr. Mark Owen, Albert Wallace, Mr. Ben Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hoey, Kate Paice, Mr. James Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Paterson, Mr. Owen Waterson, Mr. Nigel Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hollobone, Mr. Philip Pelling, Mr. Andrew Watkinson, Angela Cash, Mr. William Holloway, Mr. Adam Penning, Mike Webb, Steve Cawsey, Mr. Ian Holmes, Paul Penrose, John Weir, Mr. Mike Clappison, Mr. James Hopkins, Kelvin Pickles, Mr. Eric Whittingdale, Mr. John Clark, Greg Horam, Mr. John Price, Adam Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Horwood, Martin Prisk, Mr. Mark Wiggin, Bill Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hosie, Stewart Pugh, Dr. John Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Howard, rh Mr. Michael Randall, Mr. John Willetts, Mr. David Corbyn, Jeremy Howarth, David Redwood, rh Mr. John Williams, Hywel Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Howarth, Mr. Gerald Reid, Mr. Alan Williams, Mark Crabb, Mr. Stephen Howell, John Rennie, Willie Williams, Mr. Roger Curry, rh Mr. David Hughes, Simon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williams, Stephen Davies, Mr. Dai Huhne, Chris Robertson, Angus Willis, Mr. Phil Davies, David T.C. Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Willott, Jenny (Monmouth) Hunter, Mark Robertson, Mr. Laurence Wilson, Mr. Rob Davies, Philip Hurd, Mr. Nick Robinson, Mrs. Iris Wilson, Sammy Davis, rh David Jack, rh Mr. Michael Rosindell, Andrew Winterton, Ann Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Rowen, Paul Winterton, Sir Nicholas Dodds, Mr. Nigel Jones, Mr. David Russell, Bob Wishart, Pete Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Jones, Lynne Sanders, Mr. Adrian Wood, Mike Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Kawczynski, Daniel Scott, Mr. Lee Wright, Jeremy Duddridge, James Keetch, Mr. Paul Selous, Andrew Wright, Dr. Tony Duncan, Alan Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Shapps, Grant Yeo, Mr. Tim Dunne, Mr. Philip Key, Robert Shepherd, Mr. Richard Young, rh Sir George Durkan, Mark Kirkbride, Miss Julie Simmonds, Mark Younger-Ross, Richard Evans, Mr. Nigel Knight, rh Mr. Greg Simpson, Alan Evennett, Mr. David Kramer, Susan Simpson, Mr. Keith Tellers for the Ayes: Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Smith, Chloe Dan Rogerson and Fallon, Mr. Michael Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Smith, Sir Robert John Hemming Farrelly, Paul Lamb, Norman Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mr. Mark NOES Featherstone, Lynne Laws, Mr. David Abbott, Ms Diane Atkins, Charlotte Field, rh Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Ainger, Nick Austin, Mr. Ian Field, Mr. Mark Leigh, Mr. Edward Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Bailey, Mr. Adrian Foster, Mr. Don Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Fox, Dr. Liam Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Baird, Vera Francois, Mr. Mark Lidington, Mr. David Allen, Mr. Graham Balls, rh Ed Fraser, Christopher Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Anderson, Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia Gale, Mr. Roger Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Anderson, Janet Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Galloway, Mr. George Luff, Peter Armstrong, rh Hilary Battle, rh John 973 Equitable Life21 OCTOBER 2009 Equitable Life 974

Bayley, Hugh Etherington, Bill Kumar, Dr. Ashok Riordan, Mrs. Linda Beckett, rh Margaret Fisher, Mark Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robertson, John Begg, Miss Anne Fitzpatrick, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Bell, Sir Stuart Flello, Mr. Robert Laxton, Mr. Bob Rooney, Mr. Terry Benn, rh Hilary Flint, rh Caroline Lepper, David Roy, Mr. Frank Benton, Mr. Joe Follett, Barbara Levitt, Tom Roy, Lindsay Berry, Roger Foster, Mr. Michael Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ruane, Chris Betts, Mr. Clive (Worcester) Linton, Martin Ruddock, Joan Blackman, Liz Foster, Michael Jabez Lloyd, Tony Russell, Christine Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta (Hastings and Rye) Love, Mr. Andrew Ryan, rh Joan Blears, rh Hazel Francis, Dr. Hywel Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin Blunkett, rh Mr. David Gapes, Mike Mackinlay, Andrew Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Borrow, Mr. David S. Gardiner, Barry MacShane, rh Mr. Seabeck, Alison Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Gerrard, Mr. Neil Denis Sharma, Mr. Virendra Brennan, Kevin Gilroy, Linda Mactaggart, Fiona Shaw, Jonathan Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Sheerman, Mr. Barry Brown, Lyn Goggins, rh Paul Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheridan, Jim Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Goodman, Helen Mallaber, Judy Singh, Mr. Marsha Brown, Mr. Russell Griffith, Nia Marris, Rob Skinner, Mr. Dennis Browne, rh Des Griffiths, Nigel Marsden, Mr. Gordon Slaughter, Mr. Andy Bryant, Chris Grogan, Mr. John McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Gwynne, Andrew McCafferty, Chris Smith, Ms Angela C. Burden, Richard Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCarthy, Kerry (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Burgon, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Angela E. Burnham, rh Andy Hamilton, Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Basildon) Butler, Ms Dawn Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Geraldine Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hanson, rh Mr. David McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Jacqui Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet McFall, rh John Snelgrove, Anne Cairns, David Harris, Mr. Tom McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Soulsby, Sir Peter Campbell, Mr. Alan Healey, rh John McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Henderson, Mr. Doug McKenna, Rosemary Spellar, rh Mr. John Challen, Colin Hendrick, Mr. Mark McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Chapman, Ben Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stewart, Ian Chaytor, Mr. David Heppell, Mr. John Meale, Mr. Alan Stoate, Dr. Howard Clapham, Mr. Michael Hesford, Stephen Merron, Gillian Straw, rh Mr. Jack Clark, Ms Katy Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Michael, rh Alun Stringer, Graham Clark, Paul Heyes, David Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hill, rh Keith Miliband, rh David Tami, Mark Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hillier, Meg Miliband, rh Edward Taylor, Ms Dari Clelland, Mr. David Hodge, rh Margaret Miller, Andrew Taylor, David Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moffatt, Laura Thomas, Mr. Gareth Coffey, Ann Hood, Mr. Jim Mole, Chris Thornberry, Emily Cohen, Harry Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Connarty, Michael Hope, Phil Morden, Jessica Todd, Mr. Mark Cook, Frank Howarth, rh Mr. George Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Touhig, rh Mr. Don Cooper, Rosie Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mudie, Mr. George Trickett, Jon Cooper, rh Yvette Humble, Mrs. Joan Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond Cousins, Jim Hutton, rh Mr. John Munn, Meg Turner, Mr. Neil Crausby, Mr. David Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Twigg, Derek Creagh, Mary Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Ussher, Kitty Cruddas, Jon Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Vaz, rh Keith Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jackson, Glenda Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan Cummings, John James, Mrs. Siân C. Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Ward, Claire Cunningham, Tony Johnson, rh Alan O’Hara, Mr. Edward Watson, Mr. Tom Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Johnson, Ms Diana R. Olner, Mr. Bill Watts, Mr. Dave David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Whitehead, Dr. Alan Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Mr. Kevan Palmer, Dr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn Pearson, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Denham, rh Mr. John Jowell, rh Tessa Plaskitt, Mr. James Wills, rh Mr. Michael Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Joyce, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Wilson, Phil Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr. David Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Bridget Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Prescott, rh Mr. John Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Woolas, Mr. Phil Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Ann Prosser, Gwyn Wright, David Drew, Mr. David Kelly, rh Ruth Purchase, Mr. Ken Wright, Mr. Iain Eagle, Angela Kemp, Mr. Fraser Purnell, rh James Wyatt, Derek Eagle, Maria Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Efford, Clive Kidney, Mr. David Nick Tellers for the Noes: Engel, Natascha Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reed, Mr. Andy Steve McCabe and Ennis, Jeff Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Jamie Mr. Bob Blizzard 975 Equitable Life 21 OCTOBER 2009 976

Question accordingly negatived. Climate Change (Political Response) Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): I inform Question agreed to. the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. in the name of the Prime Minister. Before I call the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Resolved, Hughes), I say to those who will speak from the Front That this House notes that the Parliamentary Ombudsman has Benches, as well as to those hoping to catch my eye taken the unusual step of using powers under the 1967 Act to from the Back Benches, that there is a very long list of present Parliament with a further and final report on Equitable applicants and relatively little time for their work to be Life; also notes the Public Administration Select Committee’s Sixth Report Justice denied? The Government’s response to the completed. I ask, therefore, for restraint in the length of Ombudsman’s report on Equitable Life; recognises the vital role the speeches and perhaps on the number of interventions. Ombudsman plays in public life; reaffirms the duty of Parliament The Chair will use its powers to vary the time limit if to support the office of the Ombudsman; recognises the Government’s that will help to ensure maximum participation in the determination to introduce an ex gratia payment scheme that is debate. administratively quicker and simpler to deliver than that envisaged by the Ombudsman; further welcomes the Government’s decision 4.17 pm announced to the House on 20 October 2009 to widen the ex gratia payment scheme to include trapped annuitants who took Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) out policies after mid-1991; urges Sir John Chadwick to report as (LD): I beg to move, quickly and expeditiously as possible; and recognises the impact That this House believes that it is vital that the UK demonstrates and significant distress that maladministration and injustice have political leadership at all levels in response to the climate crisis, caused in respect of Equitable Life. and that this is particularly important ahead of the United Nations Climate Change summit in Copenhagen if there is to be an international agreement which will avert the worst effects of catastrophic climate change; further believes that immediate practical responses to the crisis should include a massive expansion of renewable energy and energy efficiency and a commitment for all homes in Britain to be warm homes within 10 years; acknowledges that action taken now to tackle the climate crisis will cost less than action taken in the future; notes the declared support of Labour and Conservative frontbenchers to the objective of the 10:10 campaign which calls for 10 per cent. greenhouse gas emission reductions by the end of 2010; agrees that the House will sign up to the 10:10 campaign; calls on Her Majesty’s Government and all public sector bodies now to make it their policy to achieve a 10 per cent. reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by the end of 2010; and further calls on the Government to bring a delivery plan before this House by the end of 2009 on how these objectives will be achieved. We live in an age of crises, and in recent months the economic crisis has most dominated the commentary around the world, the concerns of the public and debates here. However, the global ecological and environmental crisis poses the greater challenge. In some ways happily, although very belatedly, it is now rising to the top of the domestic and international agendas. To put it in context, a UN report this year stated that 300,000 deaths a year are attributable to climate change; that 325 million people are seriously affected at a cost to the global economy of $125 billion a year; and that 4 billion people are vulnerable to climate impacts. Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Simon Hughes: Not yet. I am trying to respect the Deputy Speaker’s exhortation. Action on climate change clearly cannot wait any longer, which is why, all over the world, individuals, communities and Governments who have understood the message are taking action. Last week, I was in west Africa. People in Nigeria realise that the wasting of oil and flaring of gas cannot continue; people in Ghana are changing the way they grow their cocoa crops, so that they do not chop down trees as part of the farming process; and people in Sierra Leone understand that deforestation around Freetown cannot continue. More and more people are getting the message. Many people will have seen the film the other day of the extraordinary 977 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 978 meeting of the Cabinet of the Government of Maldives Mr. Andrew Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman to emphasise the threat to that low-lying country, and for giving way. In welcoming this opportunity to reaffirm millions of citizens of more populous countries such as our support for the 10:10 campaign, may I ask the hon. Bangladesh will be at risk if we do not change direction. Gentleman why, in focusing his motion, he left out the Governments all over the world are now working groundbreaking Climate Change Act 2008, the importance hard—I commend them on that—to get a tough, fair of carbon budgeting and the contribution of local and effective new international deal in a few weeks in authorities? Surely all are vital to success in combating Copenhagen, because, in spite of the warnings, for too climate change. long there has not been enough action. To put it bluntly, Simon Hughes: If the right hon. Gentleman had seen there has been too little action so far, and it has come the preparation for my speech, he would know that I too late. Many people are saying that the next five will applaud the Government for the 2008 Act, as well years—the lifetime of the next Parliament—is the period as the work done in both Houses and by all parties to in which we will either avert the climate crisis or not. ensure that the 2008 Act was stronger than originally Today’s debate, chosen by me and my colleagues, proposed. He would also know that I am clear that it is aims to put the climate crisis centre stage in Parliament a good thing that Departments now have carbon budgets and to turn our minds not just to the targets of 2020 or and that the role of local authorities is important. 2050, but to what can be done now. All those things are important, but the 10:10 campaign Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): Will the is not about those things. The 10:10 campaign is about hon. Gentleman give way? asking individuals, organisations, companies, councils, the Government and Parliament to make a specific Simon Hughes: I will give way to the hon. Member commitment to reduce our emissions by 10 per cent. for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) first, if between now and the end of next year—that is, 10 per the right hon. Gentleman will allow me. cent. by the end of 2010. The campaign builds on the Our motion sets out three major areas of political work that we have done, but it is because people believe change that we believe are needed in Britain as a whole, that the long-term planning is not sufficient that we as well as some specific things for us to do now. The must now do those things that the right hon. Gentleman three major areas are a massive expansion of renewable and I, as well as many others, no doubt already do in energy, a wholehearted commitment to energy efficiency our personal lives and our communities. and a commitment for all homes in Britain to be warm homes within the next 10 years. Several hon. Members rose— Rob Marris: May I gently suggest to the hon. Gentleman Simon Hughes: I will take one more intervention in a and the House as a whole that a debate on the UK’s second and then I will press on. political response to climate change on the Liberal We have worded the motion in the way that we have Democrat motion—the Government amendment is hardly because we are talking not about a “tomorrow” problem, better—is monstrous, because the motion says nothing but about a “today”problem. Parliament has the authority about adapting to climate change? As he has said, to make decisions today that can change things from people are already dying from climate change. We need today in the days and months immediately ahead. to take adaptation just as seriously as the mitigation of Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ emissions. Co-op): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving Simon Hughes: I accept that. At our conference last way. Like many in the House, I have personally signed month, we made it clear that the international agreement— up to the 10:10 campaign, but it is not clear from what the Prime Minister understands the agenda item—of he has said so far whether he is calling on Departments the developed world to put money into the kitty to deal or the UK as a whole to cut emissions by 10 per cent. by with adaptation and mitigation is just as important. the end of 2010. Indeed, can he give an indication of the The reason our motion is more focused is that there is a pathway for achieving a 10 per cent. reduction in the campaign in this county and around the world for country as a whole by 2010? action now and next year. We are trying to get the Simon Hughes: I can deal with both those questions, Government and Parliament to make decisions about and the answer is yes. I am calling on the Government this country. We are also continuing to exhort our as a whole to sign up, which would involve all Departments Government to make the right decisions at Copenhagen. and agencies of Government. The Department for Energy However, the motion adds to the three general and Climate Change—the Minister’s Department—has propositions that I have set out for the next decade and already signed up, and public sector organisations, such calls on the Government and Parliament to sign up to as the national health service, have also done so. The the 10:10 campaign—if we pass the motion this evening, pathway is set out in the motion, which calls on the that is what we will do—and commit this country and Government to come back with a programme for how this Parliament to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions this can be delivered by the end of this year. The by 10 per cent. by the end of 2010. At the end of this Government would be committed to doing that, if the debate, I shall ask colleagues from all parties to support motion were passed. In that way, everyone would know the motion and reject the amendment. If we make the how the Government believe that they can implement right decision today, we can bring great credibility to the plan. Bodies such as the Environment Agency and Parliament, we can do the right thing for the people Natural England have made it clear that they can achieve whom we represent and, just as we did a few months more than a 10 per cent. reduction by the end of next ago when we decided to give proper recognition to the year. This is not impossibilist politics; it is politics for commitment and service of the Gurkhas, we can show now that would commit not only this Government but that Parliament can determine what the nation does, whomever is in government after the election to deliver not just the Government. in the months ahead. 979 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 980

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Is my hon. not necessary. The Government and the Conservatives, Friend saying that the strength of the motion and the who are allied in their love of the nuclear industry, are narrative that he is putting forward is that they seek to wrong about that. My colleagues and I have held to that involve not only corporations but individuals, and that, view over the years. as the Centre for Alternative Technology has pointed This country has a particular responsibility in this out, we can achieve this only by working together to regard, for three reasons. We have an historic responsibility create attitudinal and practical change in the way that because we were the country of the industrial revolution we, as individuals, live? If we can do that, we can and we have contributed hugely to the amount of achieve this target. If we do not, we have no hope emissions on the planet. We also have a responsibility whatever of doing so. because we are a member of the European Union, which has many industrialised countries, and because Simon Hughes: That is absolutely correct. I had the we are a member of the Commonwealth, which stretches privilege of being at the launch of the 10:10 campaign around the world. We must therefore achieve a really outside the old power station in my constituency that is strong deal at Copenhagen—a weak deal will not be now Tate Modern. This is a campaign in which ordinary worth having. I applaud the Prime Minister and his people are saying that they want to do things in their colleagues for the fact that they are working hard to get communities. They are also now saying that they want a good deal at Copenhagen. We boast that we are a Parliament and the Government to lead and to do the world leader, but we have to show that our deeds match same. I would hazard a guess that, in the constituencies our words. of all my friends—and, indeed, of every colleague in the House—there will be many individuals and organisations Here, sadly, we have not delivered the goods. We have that will want us to be bold today, not timid, and to sign had a Government target in every manifesto since 1997— up to a campaign that many individuals have signed up there was a 20 per cent. reduction in emissions by 2010, to in recent weeks. for example, but we are barely halfway there. Emissions reductions through the recession do not count; we Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): We want simply have not delivered. Another Government target to be bold in Stoke-on-Trent. We want to sign up to the was to have 10 per cent. of our electricity through 10:10 campaign, and it is vital that we work together renewables by 2010. We have the best potential source right the way across Parliament and down to the people of renewables anywhere. I attended the British Wind at grass-roots level. That is taken as read. May I point Energy Association conference in Liverpool this morning, out to the hon. Gentleman, however, that it would have and I know that the number of people expressing an been helpful if his motion had mentioned the report interest in renewable energy has gone up nearly 50 per that was delivered only last week to Parliament from the cent. since last year alone. Yet where are we? Not at the Committee on Climate Change, entitled “Meeting carbon top of the league table for renewables in Europe, like budgets—the need for a step change”? It is vital that Sweden, but at the bottom with countries such as everything that is done on the 10:10 campaign should Luxembourg. The Minister told me earlier this year be done within the framework of the CCC. that only 1 per cent. of our homes are energy-efficient—we are the cold man of Europe. The Government now Simon Hughes: Of course I accept what the hon. support the expansion of Heathrow—blind to the evidence Lady says. She has a very good track record. I was of the need to reduce aviation emissions and still willing present at the announcement of the report to Parliament, to have dirty coal produced in the future. Commitments and I think that Ministers have already given an undertaking to the environment have been broken again and again; that it will be debated—it is bound to be debated. May I sadly, we have not delivered. just point out to colleagues, however, that this motion is not meant to encompass every single thing that anyone Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): In condemning could ever do, or everything that we should have done? the third runway and expansion at Heathrow, my hon. It is designed to focus our attention on the demand that Friend anticipated my point, but does he agree that it is is being made of us to sign up now to a campaign that is imperative that we hear from the Conservatives some gathering support daily around the country. If Parliament condemnation of the “Boris island” estuary airport, and the Government do not sign up to it, it will send a which would be a climate change and environmental terrible message to other people. We will seem to be disaster on an even worse scale? saying: “Youdo the job, but we’re not willing to follow.” Simon Hughes: I say to my hon. Friend, who has led our work on this issue, that it always seemed to me Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): entirely inconsistent for Conservative Members to say The hon. Gentleman has rightly said that we need to be on the one hand that they are against expanding Heathrow bold, not timid. Is not this therefore the time for the while saying on the other hand that they are quite Liberal Democrats to show leadership and to accept the happy to have lots more activities in airports elsewhere need for new nuclear power if we are to meet our green in the south-east of England. [Interruption.] That is needs and our energy needs? not our policy—absolutely not. If Ministers, civil servants, Simon Hughes: I could be distracted down that road, fellow MPs, local government officers, councillors and and I am very happy to have that debate. There is all the people in public office used trains rather than perfectly reasonable debate involving the argument that planes in this country when they could do—and they set nuclear power should play a part in our energy mix, but an example, which it is perfectly possible to do in I believe that it is flawed in a huge number of respects. mainland Britain—we would not need the sort of expansion For example, it is too expensive, it will be late and it is that the Government are now supporting. too risky. There are all sorts of reasons why it is not a We have been committed environmentalists since our good option, but the really important thing is that we Liberal Democrat party was formed in 1988, and many can meet our energy needs without nuclear power. It is of us were committed even before that. Indeed, I remember 981 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 982 flagging up the urgency of climate change in a debate Many organisations have signed up. The Prime Minister with Mrs. Virginia Bottomley, who was the Minister has said: with responsibility for the matter, in 1988. We argue “I fully support the…campaign and its challenge for everyone that the policies must always follow the science. We to cut carbon emissions by 10 per cent. in 2010.” argue that to stabilise greenhouse gas emissions—this is The Department of Energy and Climate Change has what the intergovernmental panel on climate change said: has said—global emissions must peak and decline no “The Government welcomes the…campaign”. later than 2015. We are clear—this was also the point Nearly 30 per cent. of Labour Members, nearly 20 per made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West cent. of Conservative Members, and half of Liberal (Rob Marris)—that if we are going to have a sane Democrat Members have signed up personally. world, the developed countries will have to give to the If we pass the motion, we can achieve things now. I developing countries something in the order of £160 billion shall end with a short shopping list: we can ensure that a year for adaptation and transition. We must continue travel arrangements are energy-efficient; we can improve to reduce our emissions rigorously over the next 10 energy awareness and introduce energy efficiency measures years and then beyond. We will probably also have to throughout the Government estate, so that everyone phase out all fossil fuel by 2050. understands the implications of what they do; and we All that has a fantastic cost-benefit, which is an issue can reduce heating. As advised by the Sustainable that many people do not understand. Emission cuts are Development Commission among others, if we use cost saving. The argument that money spent now will be renewables to power Government stock, we can save money saved later is becoming increasingly influential. 1.8 billion tonnes of CO2 each year. In this place, we The environmental argument is thus also an economic can turn off annunciators, televisions, lights and computers argument, and in straitened times it seems to me to be a when they are not needed, and people can use the stairs very persuasive argument indeed. rather than the lifts. We could have tap water rather than bottled war; we could do a phenomenal amount. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): Does In the past year, we have all probably made a little my hon. Friend share my frustration that the Government contribution. My orange taxi has stayed in its drive have not sufficiently linked those very arguments about entirely, unmoved—I have cycled or used public transport. people struggling to pay fuel bills in the recession with If individuals are willing to do that, I hope that Government the need to tackle climate change? It is particularly will now do it, too. At the end of this debate, I hope that disappointing that the Government are moving the colleagues will send this message: low carbon is job goalposts on their targets for fuel poverty and saying creating; action now is cheaper than action later; and that the targets will be in place only as long as it is we can grasp the low-hanging fruit. practicable, which makes a nonsense of them altogether. For the Liberal Democrats, “It’s not possible” is not Simon Hughes: My hon. Friend is right, which is why an answer. I remind Ministers of what the Secretary of we have said that one of the most useful things that we State for Energy and Climate Change said to his party can do is have a plan to make every home a warm home. conference: There is a win all round—warmer homes, fewer people “It is the idealists and optimists that make change happen.” dying, lower fuel bills and the climate saved. It is absolutely We are idealists and optimists, but we are also political a winner, and it must be made central to policy. realists. There is no bigger crisis than climate change, and I hope the House and the Government will sign up Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): Will the hon. to action this year—not next year, some time or never. Gentleman give way? 4.38 pm Simon Hughes: No. I really want to move to a conclusion now, as a huge number of colleagues want to contribute The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to the debate, which is as it should be. The Government Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): I beg to move an spend £1.6 billion every year on energy. Lord Stern, amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of probably the foremost climate economist in the world, the Question and add: has warned that if we do not take action, between 5 and “welcomes the 10:10 campaign as a motivator of public action to 20 per cent. of global GDP will be lost due to the effects cut carbon dioxide emissions through individual and collective behaviour change; recognises the value of such campaigns to of climate change. To prevent that, we need to spend build public support for action by governments to agree an about 2 per cent. of global GDP. For every £2 spent ambitious, effective and fair deal at Copenhagen; further recognises now, we could save £5 to £20 in the future. The conclusions the significant effort made by individuals and organisations to cut are obvious: we should take collective action together. their emissions through the 10:10 campaign; supports the Climate What individuals and companies have done, Government Change Act introduced by this Government, the first such legislation and Parliament should now do too. in the world, and the system of carbon budgets that enables Britain to set itself on a low carbon pathway; notes that carbon Many councils, of all parties and those with no budgets ensure active policies by Whitehall departments and the overall control, have signed up to the campaign. Among public sector that deliver long-term sustained emissions reductions Liberal Democrat-run councils, colleagues in Camden not just in 2010 but through to 2022 and beyond; further supports and Cambridge, Eastleigh and Islington, Richmond the efforts of local councils to move towards local carbon budgets and Newcastle, and my borough of Southwark, have by signing up to the 10:10 campaign; further welcomes the signed up. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member allocation of up to £20 million for central Government departments for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) adds Stockport, and there to enable them to reduce further and faster carbon dioxide emissions from their operations, estate and transport; and further may be others, including councils run by other parties. welcomes the cross-cutting Public Value Programme review of Sadly, at City hall in London the other day, the Tories the low carbon potential of the public sector, which will focus on walked out when the motion was put, not allowing the how the sector can achieve transformational financial savings motion to be voted on. through value-for-money carbon reductions.” 983 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 984

[Joan Ruddock] the lowest possible, but we are taking considerable measures to change that. I assure the hon. Gentleman In the past few months, I have met Environment that our expectation is that the next time we are given Ministers, Finance Ministers and negotiators from about an energy efficiency rating, it will not be G. 40 different countries. Everywhere I go, people acknowledge Let me tell the House about the finance initiative, and praise the UK’s global leadership on climate change. which is an essential part of the Copenhagen discussions. So let no one be in any doubt: this Government are As I have said, it has paid dividends. Climate finance is making a huge and concerted effort to bring about now being properly discussed in the new negotiations success in Copenhagen. I am grateful to the Liberal forums such as the Major Economies Forum on Energy Democrat spokesperson for acknowledging that. and Climate—for instance, in London earlier this week— Our embassies around the world are engaged in outreach and the G8 and the G20, and they are using the broad on the issue. Our experts are helping in many countries. framework that the Prime Minister set out in his speech. Our officials are at every negotiating table. The Prime We are continuing to push for ambition within the Minister and Cabinet colleagues are actively contributing European Union so that we can take a strong position to the process, and the Prime Minister has indicated at Copenhagen. We have taken a leading role in the way that if it is necessary to secure agreement, he will go in in which we identify sources of finance needed to support person to achieve it. We have actively pursued ambition a deal and the institutional architecture needed to deliver within the EU, arguing for a 30 per cent. conditional it, thinking creatively about how we can best facilitate offer when others thought the recession an excuse for the rapid deployment and development of low-carbon lowering targets. We have held fast to the science, arguing technology, and leading work to agree on a new that any deal must put the world on track to keep global international framework to tackle deforestation. We are average temperature rises within 2° C. We have intervened also continuing to push our objectives with other with proposals to unblock the inevitable logjams that Governments, with the Secretary of State visiting China, occur in a process that takes two years. Russia, India, Brazil, South Africa and the United States in pursuit of a deal. Mr. Graham Stuart: Britain has indeed taken a leading role in international negotiations, and I know that our Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): Does the embassies are involved in that, but may I put it to the Minister accept that not all sustainable technologies are Minister that our performance at home is woeful in equal? Does she agree that when we come to subsidise comparison with our efforts on the international stage? and support various forms of technology, we need to be How is it possible for us to show any form of global discriminating if we are to maximise our impact? In leadership given our own record on energy efficiency particular, will she look again at onshore wind, which is and our failure to implement carbon capture and storage? causing a lot of grief to many of our constituents? There are so many low-hanging fruit in which I know Offshore wind, which has far more of a proven track the Minister has been personally interested in past record, is more likely to make a real contribution to our years. Why have the Government failed to deliver at commitments. home while talking so loudly abroad? Joan Ruddock: I intend to deal with those aspects of Joan Ruddock: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is referring the Government’s policy in due course. I wanted to put to Tory councils. I will come to the Government’s the House in the picture on Copenhagen first, because record, which I assure him stands up very well when we that is our absolute priority at present. are abroad. Let me explain what we are aiming for at Copenhagen. Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I have no We want a deal that is ambitious, effective and fair. We problem with what the Government are doing. It is need action by all countries, and if we are to help focused and it is delivering, and the 10:10 campaign is developing countries move from the high-carbon path excellent. However, will my hon. Friend acknowledge to low-carbon and climate-resilient growth, we shall that one of the major contributors to carbon dioxide need action in a number of areas including finance, emission is the growth of animal feed? Will she also technology, deforestation, adaptation and institutional acknowledge that using the renewable transport fuel reform. On 26 June this year, the Prime Minister set out obligation methodology generates a carbon saving of the United Kingdom’s position on global climate finance: 70 per cent. in comparison with use of fossil fuel? That the aim is to raise around $100 billion each year by rises to more than 100 per cent.— 2020. The Prime Minister was the first world leader to do so, and it has paid dividends. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I did say to the House that a lot of interventions would do terrible damage to Mr. Peter Ainsworth (East Surrey) (Con): The Minister the number of people who could be called in the debate. has failed to answer the question put by my hon. Friend Interventions must be very short. I honestly think that the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart). the Minister has got the point that her hon. Friend has While dealing with the issue of energy efficiency, will been trying to make. she tell us what is the energy efficiency rating of her Department’s headquarters? Joan Ruddock: Let me assure my hon. Friend that, in looking across the whole of the economy, we are also of Joan Ruddock: I am happy to answer the hon. course looking to agriculture to make its contribution. Gentleman’s specific question. I shall deal with the general We will take on board the points she has made. issues that he raised later in my speech. The rating of our Department—we inherited the listed building—is Rob Marris: Will my hon. Friend give way? 985 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 986

Joan Ruddock: Yes, but I will have to respond to typical Liberal Democrat posturing. Only a party that Mr. Deputy Speaker’s comments shortly. never expects to be in government could propose a motion for a totally uncosted, unthought-through Rob Marris: I am grateful for what the Government programme for a single year cut, as opposed to the have done, but I am bitterly disappointed, although sustained actions already under way to meet our carbon unsurprised, that their amendment says nothing about budgets—carbon budgets that are designed to deliver adaptation. Can my hon. Friend explain why until the three times as much, and that were proposed by us in recent world recession CO2 emissions per capita in the Committee on 18 May and agreed by the Liberal United Kingdom had increased during this century? Democrats. Joan Ruddock: I will go on to explain that our emissions Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I have have reduced in terms of the economy as a whole. That never been slow to support the Government when they is what is critical in these talks. My hon. Friend knows have done the right things, but surely the Minister must very well both about my commitment to adaptation in accept that on every single count the Government fail in this country and overseas and the fact that the Government these areas. Let me give her just one example. The have got a framework for adapting to climate change building schools programme has no rules that enforce for this country, which is very comprehensive and on green building. Indeed, local councils have to choose which work is continuously done. between building a school that is either big enough or Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD) rose— green enough. How on earth does she defend the policy? Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD) rose— Joan Ruddock: I shared some of the right hon. Gentleman’s criticisms of that programme in the past, Joan Ruddock: I will not give way now, as I wish to but it has been changed. There is now much more make some progress. concentration on the greening of schools, and many When we go abroad and urge other nations to be schools have taken on renewable technologies. more ambitious and to do more, we do so in confidence because we know this country has already stepped up to Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I slightly regret the mark. The UK commitment to unilateral cuts of the tone of the statements that the Minister has just 34 per cent. in our greenhouse gas emissions by 2020 made, because she is casting doubt on the Government’s and raising the target in the event of an agreement at ability to sign up to the 10:10 campaign. Given that Copenhagen meets the level of ambition required of her Department, the Department for International developed countries by the United Nations framework Development and some British embassies have signed convention on climate change. I remind the House that up to it, precisely what excuses are being given to her by our Climate Change Act 2008 has made us the first other Departments for not doing so? country in the world to introduce legally binding targets Joan Ruddock: I intend to explain things and I just to limit our greenhouse gas emissions and we are the ask all hon. Members to be patient until I get through only country to have a whole economy subject to carbon the next points that I wish to make. constraints through carbon budgets. In producing those I have referred to the carbon budgets. I suggest also budgets, we have taken the advice of the independent that perhaps the Liberal Democrats are not really aware Committee on Climate Change. that the public sector reduced its emissions by one third Mr. Foster: I am grateful to the Minister for giving between 1990 and 2007. Within government we take way, and may I add to the praise that has already been our responsibilities seriously and we are taking steps to heaped on her for her personal contribution in this put in place a strong internal mechanism to manage field? However, many of us are surprised that she has carbon budgets across Whitehall. In the transition plan allowed her name to appear on this amendment in view to a low-carbon economy, we announced individual of what she has just said. Can she explain why the carbon budgets for all major Departments, representing amendment praises everybody else for signing up to the their share of responsibility. All Departments will publish 10:10 campaign, and yet it refuses to allow this House a carbon-reduction delivery plan by next April, which to join in with it? will include the indicators and milestones to monitor progress. All Departments will be committed to a long-term Joan Ruddock: If the hon. Gentleman is a little reduction in carbon emissions—that is a reduction not patient, I shall come to that. just in 2009 or in 2010, but through to 2022 and beyond. No country has done more. I remind the House again The Government are already on track to meet and that we will meet our Kyoto commitment by almost exceed their carbon emissions target—I ask hon. Members twice the amount required. Since 1990, greenhouse gas to listen to this—of 12.5 per cent. reductions across emissions in the UK have reduced by 18 per cent., or their estate by 2010-11. We have already put that in 21 per cent. if we add in the reductions made through place and we are already on track. the European Union emissions trading scheme, but we are in no way complacent. We know that action is Several hon. Members rose— required at all levels, which is why we applaud the Joan Ruddock: I give way to the hon. Member for efforts of the 10:10 campaign and encourage greater East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). ambition and getting ordinary people involved. We also agree with 10:10 that the public sector must lead, and Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for giving way to me have put in place a raft of mechanisms to make that at last; it just shows that it pays to persevere. I praise the happen. The Liberal Democrat motion calls for all the work that she has personally done on tackling climate public sector to reduce its emissions by 10 per cent. in change, but does she not recognise that it is strange to 2010 and for the Government to produce a delivery praise the 10:10 campaign while refusing in the amendment plan by the end of this year. I regret to say that that is to sign up Departments and, indeed, this House, to it? 987 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 988

[Jo Swinson] responsibility, how can the Government—and Ministers— turn to the captains of industry, the leaders of the trade This House is not covered by the Government numbers unions and local authorities and say with authority, that she just mentioned and it should have the opportunity “We want you to do it but we just cannot do it ourselves”? to sign up to the 10:10 campaign. Today’s Liberal Democrat motion is a way of doing that. Joan Ruddock: I remind the hon. Gentleman that his party signed up to the carbon budgets— Joan Ruddock: Regrettably, the hon. Lady has not been listening to what I have said. I have been making it Simon Hughes: It is not either/or. very clear what is already under way and why signing up Joan Ruddock: It is. The carbon budgets are the result to the 10:10 campaign does not make sense—[HON. of years of effort. If a Department—or the whole MEMBERS: “This House.”] This House can choose to do public sector—were to try to put in place a 10 per cent. what this House wants to do, but the Government are cut within a single year, I can assure him that projects clearly not committing the public sector as a whole—this would be absolutely useless. They would not come to is what the motion seeks—to the 10:10 campaign. fruition and that there would be chaos in planning. The Government are giving direct assistance through What would be the cost? If the Conservative party providing £54.5 million in this financial year for a intends to support the Lib Dem motion, I hope that its public sector loans scheme, which is administered by spokesman will tell us what the cost would be of putting Salix Finance. That provides interest-free loans for energy the whole public sector through that process in a single efficiency technologies that provide payback in less year instead of over the period of the carbon budgets to than five years, with ongoing savings then staying in the which he also signed up. public sector. The Carbon Trust provides detailed support for the public sector, running a carbon management Several hon. Members rose— programme that enables many public sector bodies to Joan Ruddock: I need to reach some further points identify savings of 25 per cent. over a five-year period. I and to explain—[Interruption.] I have not rubbished am pleased to announce today that we are allocating 10:10. It is a very worthwhile campaign, but 10:10 has £20 million to cut CO2 emissions from both the Government not approached us with this proposition for the whole estate and its transport. Some of the money will go on public sector. energy efficiency, on smart meters and on low-carbon All sectors of the economy will have to contribute to cars, and some will go on mapping the possibilities of the decarbonisation process required by the carbon renewable energy on public land—that will be led by the budgets. We will need to change the way we do everything Forestry Commission. to cut down the amount of energy and other resources All that effort, and much more, is the result of years that we use. For example, by 2020 about 40 per cent. of of planning and experience. Consequently, I must say to our electricity will come from low-carbon sources— the hon. Lady that it would make no sense to require renewables, nuclear and clean coal—whereas 7 million the whole public sector to commit to a one-off emissions homes will have had the opportunity to undertake reduction when it is already demonstrating commitment whole house changes and more than 1.5 million households in the short, medium and long-term. For some in the will be supported in the production of their own clean public sector, a 10 per cent. reduction might be possible energy. The average new car will emit 40 per cent. less in a single year and I congratulate those councils that carbon than now. have signed up to the campaign. I am pleased to say that We need to transform our electricity system so that the Department of Energy and Climate Change is ahead our electricity comes from clean sources. We have done of 10:10. It has signed up to, and is on course to meet, a an enormous amount to make that possible in recent 10 per cent. cut in energy use in our building within this times. We plan to achieve an almost sevenfold increase financial year. in the use of renewable energy in just 11 years. To For individuals, I understand that the 10:10 campaign achieve that, we are expanding and extending the renewables is aspirational, designed to give people a target to aim obligation and introducing a new feed-in tariff to support for voluntarily. As such, it is warmly welcomed by micro and small-scale renewable energy projects. The Government and it is consistent with our approach to inclusion of nuclear power in our generation mix can the Act on CO2 campaign. Like 10:10, we seek to also contribute and we are therefore taking steps to encourage and help people to change their behaviour. ensure that unnecessary barriers to its deployment are With 42 per cent. of emissions down to our personal removed. It will be for energy companies to fund, lifestyles, we can do much to match efforts in Government, develop and build nuclear power stations, and that will business and industry. Since we launched our carbon include meeting the full costs of decommissioning and calculator two years ago, more than 1.6 million people accepting their full share of waste management and have visited the site. I welcome the involvement of disposal. Clean coal is another plank of our future 10:10 and we are keen to help them with our own low-carbon energy plans and, again, we are putting resources. To demonstrate our support, not only DECC significant financial support into carbon capture and Ministers but the whole Cabinet have signed up to make storage. a personal contribution. At the household level, we have already helped millions Let me return to the bigger picture. of families to save money, energy and carbon through Simon Hughes: Does the Minister not accept that it our flagship scheme, the carbon emissions reductions sounds to everybody else who is being encouraged to target. Since 2002, the energy suppliers have spent billions sign up to the campaign as if the Government are of pounds on helping more than 5 million British inconsistent and not fully committed? If one or two householders deal with their energy efficiency needs. Departments are signed up and so are bodies such as We expect that figure to exceed 9 million in 2011. That the NHS, but the Government cannot take collective is proper, responsible planning and achievement. 989 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 990

We have also introduced a new community energy Gregory Barker: There often seems to be a healthy saving programme, and around £350 million will be consensus in UK politics on climate change, even if we spent on energy efficiency measures in some of the most do not talk enough about adaptation. Over the past few deprived communities in the UK. Next year, we begin years we in the UK are fortunate enough to have the roll-out of smart meters to every household in the enjoyed a good consensus, by and large, about the country. challenges and threats posed. We worked constructively Beyond 2012, we know that there will be a need to go with the Government across party on the Climate Change further. That is why we will have to introduce measures Act 2008. It is to the Government’s credit that that is on such as side wall insulation, microgeneration and new the statute book, and we look forward to strengthening heating technologies. Such measures come at a high and improving any new legislation on climate that is price, which is why we are piloting a new finance approach included in this autumn’s Queen’s Speech. through the Pay As You Save pilots, which will help However, a broad consensus over the direction of people take out loans that they can pay back from their travel and the nature of the challenge should not be energy bill savings. mistaken for a sense of job done in respect of Britain’s I want to touch on transport for a second, as it is political and economic response. A commitment to a currently the second-largest contributor of carbon emissions framework of reductions is only a small first step. As in the UK. Our transition plan makes it clear that the Government have demonstrated by their failure to ultra-low emissions vehicles, including electric, will meet their manifesto pledges to reduce emissions targets, contribute to greater efficiency in carbon savings in the frameworks and targets on their own are not enough future. The Government have pledged £230 million for unless there is a plan for delivery behind them. What we consumer-incentive packages from 2011 to promote the have learned from the Minister today is that for Labour, early adoption of ultra-low carbon vehicles, and an energy efficiency is a fourth-term issue. additional £30 million for the installation of electric Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): On Government targets, vehicle infrastructure. it was the Minister who said that every new job should Combined, these measures add up to the most ambitious be a green job. That was in March this year. That same transformation of the economy ever put forward by a month, the Prime Minister promised 400,000 new green British Government, and I defy either Opposition party jobs, but at the Labour party conference that figure fell to quarrel with that. Through a mixture of incentives, to 250,000. Is there any reason why the Government regulation and public spending, we are confident that should have axed 150,000 jobs? we can move this country to a low-carbon path. Gregory Barker: No real reason, except that those As we embrace a greener future, however, we also figures were plucked out of green air. Leadership means accept our historic responsibilities for our part in causing taking responsibility to deliver clear outcomes. On an climate change. That is why we will continue to do our issue of such severity, waiting and waiting is no longer utmost to achieve agreement at Copenhagen. This is the an option. most important negotiation that the world has ever known. Nothing should deflect us from that task, and Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): The hon. no political posturing should be deployed to diminish Gentleman spoke of the necessity for frameworks, which public support for our ambition. he has supported. I welcome that, but does he agree that having established the framework, having got the Climate 5.2 pm Change Committee to make its recommendations, and having drawn up for Government a programme to enact Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I begin by those recommendations, it does not make sense to do congratulating the Liberals on calling this Opposition something else and ask the Government to sign up to day debate. It is not a catch-all debate on climate 10:10, which will conflict with the programmatic framework change, and because we are relatively short of time, I that the hon. Gentleman welcomed? shall try to keep my remarks brief. The agenda is huge and we will not have time to cover all of it, so I shall Gregory Barker: The most important thing about the focus on the 10:10 campaign. 10:10 campaign is that it instils a sense of urgency into It is rapidly becoming clear that it is nearly impossible the agenda which is singularly lacking in the Government. to overstate the challenges posed by meeting and finding They seem to take comfort from frameworks, regulation, solutions to the problems of dangerous man-made climate long-term targets and the never-never land of 2020—when change. Any opportunity for this Chamber to discuss they will be long gone—believing that that justifies their that, and its profound effects, should be warmly welcomed. inaction now. We must focus on what can be done. Over the summer recess, we learned that Arctic summer Mr. Peter Ainsworth: Was not one of the most telling ice will have disappeared completely, not by 2050 as we remarks made by the Minister in her contribution, had previously thought, but possibly as soon as within when criticising the motion, that signing up to the 20 years. We can all agree that there is now widespread 10:10 deal would cost a huge amount of money? She agreement about the nature and scale of the threat implied criticism of our Front-Bench team for not posed by climate change. Before I move on, I shall give having costed that. This is not about cost. Does my hon. the House one more fact: it is estimated that if the Friend agree that we are talking about saving energy, Himalayan glaciers were to melt, three-quarters of a saving CO and saving money, not spending it? billion people would be without sufficient water. We 2 cannot pretend that that would not have serious Gregory Barker: Indeed. Labour just doesn’t get it. consequences for all of us in terms of global conflict, The Government still have an old-fashioned backward- mass movements of people and our national security. looking 20th century approach. They think that the environment costs, and must be paid for, whereas people Rob Marris: What about adaptation? in the 21st century understand that progressive and 991 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 992

[Gregory Barker] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) seems to be whipping globally competitive economies must be energy-efficient. up interventions, but I say to the hon. Member for That is not an optional add-on. Whether energy efficiency Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart), who just intervened, is financed in the public sector, in the private sector or that there is a saying, “Never do anything twice,” and by consumers, more and more energy-efficient models three times is getting a little excessive in this debate. are self-financing. The Minister should be aware that despite the credit crunch, there is a great deal of innovative Gregory Barker: I shall endeavour to make some financing out there now which is coming to the fore and progress, Mr. Deputy Speaker. which demonstrates that it does not need a big up-front spend from the taxpayer. We need to show political Several hon. Members rose— leadership that puts that on the agenda. To retreat into carbon budgets as though they were some universal Gregory Barker: I shall take an intervention from the panacea is claptrap. What we need is real progress now. hon. Member for Regent’s Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck). Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. Is not Labour looking for Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) excuses not to support the motion? If the Government (Lab): The 10:10 campaign has enormous strength, and had so much in place there would be no difficulty in is not its beauty due to the fact that it is a genuinely delivering a 10 per cent. reduction next year, because bottom-up campaign about changing the behaviour of the mechanisms would already be there. Why will the individuals and organisations, and getting mass buy-in? Government not allow the House to decide that it wants Will the hon. Gentleman therefore say why he has not to sign up to that? If anybody wants to vote for that— instructed all Conservative councils to sign up to it, or ensured that all Conservative-led local authorities and Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman partner delivery organisations actively support it? should not attempt to put too much in an intervention, especially if he is hoping to catch my eye later. Gregory Barker: For a start, we do not instruct our councils to do anything. We certainly encourage them, Gregory Barker: I thoroughly agree with the right and we will try to show some leadership. We certainly hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce). The trouble do not anticipate— with this Government is that they are stuck in a rut. Their default mechanism is, “Don’t support an Opposition Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): Will the hon. motion.” It just goes against the tribal instinct. However, Gentleman give way? I am sure that the Minister’s common sense argues in the other direction, and that she did her bit to try to Gregory Barker: Would the hon. Gentleman mind if I support the motion, but unfortunately was not successful. finished my response to the previous intervention first? We certainly do not anticipate a new layer of bureaucracy. Joan Ruddock: I would not have argued in any way The 10:10 campaign is a public campaign that will not for the motion. The situation is very clear to us: we have give rise to new regulation or bureaucracy. However, we a programme that was laid out in detail in the transition exhort the whole public sector to participate in it. plan this summer and covers the next decade. It includes the spending that we need to achieve and the policies Several hon. Members rose— that we have to put in place. We are talking about spending billions of pounds to achieve those policies, so Gregory Barker: I shall try to make some progress it would be nonsense to try to turn that around for a now, but I shall try to take Members’ interventions a gesture—for a single year—when we have a programme little later. that runs to 2020. How would I sum up the situation? There is a huge gap between ambition, practical vision and delivery on Gregory Barker: The Minister has to understand that the ground, and there is a woeful mismatch between the nobody—certainly nobody in this House who sits on debate in the UK about the political response to climate the Opposition Benches—has the slightest confidence change so far and what has happened in the past. The in any Government plan. They have been shown to fail bottom line is that the Conservatives have had enough in the past; they will fail in the future. of well-meaning but unambitious small-scale tinkering with the energy markets; we have had enough of Several hon. Members rose— complicated overlapping initiatives and regulation that would leave would-be entrepreneurs and investors in Gregory Barker: I give way to my hon. Friend the our green economy scratching their heads; we have had Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart). enough of sham green taxation that raised money for the Treasury without any clear green outcome—and we Mr. Graham Stuart: My hon. Friend is absolutely have had enough of a Government who could not make right. Of course, not only will the 2010 target on emissions up their mind on coal or carbon capture and storage, be missed, but the child poverty target will be missed, had to be forced into feed-in tariffs and have no real too. Again and again, Government Members sit on strategy on heat and energy efficiency. their Benches in righteous indignation because they Our low-carbon economy paper brings together all have “laid out a plan”. It is not the plan we want, it is those elements in a coherent and ambitious strategy. It delivery—and it is delivery that we have never received. is a route to a transformation of the UK. It is not a wish 993 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 994 list of targets and frameworks with no delivery; it is a credibility. As the Minister admitted, the DECC has the plan for action which will be at the heart of the next lowest possible rating for a Government Department, Conservative manifesto. but unfortunately one would think from her comments that that was an aberration—that along the rest of Mr. David Chaytor: The motion requires Whitehall there were great beacons of energy efficiency “all public sector bodies…to make it their policy to achieve a and this was just one little period building. In fact, 10 per cent. reduction in greenhouse gas emissions” according to the Sustainable Development Commission, by next year. Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House of the central Government and non-governmental public how many Tory councils have already signed up to the body estate, approximately 85 per cent. of buildings climate change indicator in the comprehensive performance that even displayed an energy certificate were rated D or assessment, and how many Tory councils have mechanisms below and 59 per cent. were rated E or below. That is in place even to measure their emissions, let alone to cut absolutely shocking. There can be no special excuses. them by 10 per cent. in one year? Are we to expect the DECC to go round and occupy every single Ministry over the next 10 years as the only Gregory Barker: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a way to achieve delivery? figure off the top of my head, but I can tell him that The whole Government estate has an energy bill of Conservative councils are by far the most efficient in the approximately £4 billion a year, so a huge amount of country and will certainly be looking to save money. taxpayers’ money is unnecessarily wasted on electricity People have to understand that that is what the energy and energy bills. Yet we have had to wait until the fag efficiency debate is about. It is not about the environment end of a third-term Labour Government before they or about saving money, but about both—it is two sides have begun even to get vaguely serious about energy of the same coin. efficiency. That is why Governments such as China’s are I have absolutely no doubt that the more Conservative not taking this Government as seriously as they should. councils come to understand the benefits of ambitious The failure is compounded by missed opportunities. energy efficiency, the more they will be adopting such a Energy security, green jobs, the huge economic opportunity strategy. There are certainly a lot more councils still to of leading in new technologies, and a higher quality of sign up. The 10:10 campaign was not launched in one life: all those are on offer, but to galvanise the private go—it has been a viral campaign, and it is steadily sector into taking advantage of such opportunities we growing. It started primarily with Liberal councils, but require clear Government leadership. it is spreading, and I hope that more Conservative councils will take part. Where there are doubts about Hugh Bayley: I am surprised that nobody has mentioned their inability to meet the targets, I will join in trying to the fact that the House of Commons Commission, persuade, educate and encourage them on how much of which is responsible for the carbon emissions from this a money-saving strategy this could be. That includes my building, considered this very matter at a meeting earlier own local councils. Across the board, there are people this week. The minutes say: who need to understand how beneficial this could be, as “The Commission agreed that it could not sign up to the 10:10 well as being the right thing to do. campaign, but would explain that it planned to set meaningful and deliverable targets for 2010/11.” Simon Hughes: Many people will be encouraged by Did the Conservative members of the Commission what the hon. Gentleman has said. As his party is support its decision; if not, what did they say? supporting the motion, will he encourage his colleagues around the country to support this initiative, wherever Gregory Barker: I do not know, but I would not mind it comes from, particularly in places such as the Isle of laying a decent bet that there was a Labour majority, Wight, which sadly, under Tory control, has acted as a probably of former Ministers, imbued with a sense of barrier to wind turbines, indirectly resulting in Vestas targets. closing down its plant and not producing them any more? Hugh Bayley: There is not a Labour majority; the Commission is a cross-party body chaired by Mr. Speaker. Gregory Barker: I think that Vestas closing down plant in the UK has less to do with the micro-politics of Gregory Barker: I think that the hon. Gentleman will the Isle of Wight and a lot more to do with a total find that although it may be cross-party, there is still a absence of leadership at national level after 10 years of Labour majority. a Labour Government. Hugh Bayley: No, there is not a Labour majority. If we are to show global leadership, it will be through our actions and their results, not through international Gregory Barker: I am not going to get dragged into grandstanding. That message was reinforced this morning that, but it is unfortunate if the House has turned down when I met the high-level delegation from China who an opportunity to join the campaign. I keep coming are en route to this weekend’s GLOBE International back to the fact that people want to see action, not yet meeting at Copenhagen. They made it absolutely plain more targets and budgets. They simply will not understand that they, pragmatically, set far more store by short-term why things that can be done now are not being done, or actions than long-term targets. The two are not mutually why Ministers or their apologists are seeking some sort exclusive, but one can certainly see their point. We must of safe refuge in future action at some unspecified date, deliver emissions reductions at home to have any sort of or in further budgets and targets. global authority. In the run-up to Copenhagen, it is becoming clear Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): just how much the Government’s failure significantly to Does my hon. Friend agree that if firm, practical action reduce emissions over the past 11 years is costing our along the lines of 10:10 were taken in this country, the 995 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 996

[Mr. Oliver Heald] sign up to but much harder to deliver, we need an ambitious roll-out of energy efficiency incentives, regulatory effect would be to send out a message ahead of Copenhagen change and leadership from the centre to empower that this is not going to be yet another occasion that is action in the community. Local authorities still encounter all about warm words and signing up to something too many barriers to driving ahead as fast as they can. vague and meaningless, but that it will be an occasion Better information on the latest technology and energy- when the world means business and something really saving best practice is needed, in an area that is changing has to change? all the time. There must be greater freedom to employ innovative financing schemes, particularly using energy Gregory Barker: Absolutely. We need action, not service companies and new shared saving schemes that words, and when better than in such serious economic do not place the up-front costs of new technologies and times as these to put efficiency and money saving hand retrofits on the taxpayer or on the overstretched budgets in hand, right at the top of the agenda? Only an of local authorities. old-fashioned, backward-looking mentality is preventing Certainly, those concerns have been expressed to me that. locally, and I shall be addressing them at my local [Interruption.] Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): Will the energy efficiency summit— I hear someone hon. Gentleman give way? on the Government Benches asking how much those things will cost. They just do not get it. They have Gregory Barker: I will, but then I will try to make clearly never heard of shared savings models or ESCOs— some progress. I had expected this to be the usual energy service companies—and they clearly do not genteel outing, but I am glad to see the House so full. understand the appetite in the private sector to be part of this revolution, or the changes that are happening Colin Challen: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I out there in the world. The world out there is changing apologise to the House for intervening, but I have and the Government do not seem to have woken up to something on my chest. Last week the Climate Change the potential or the opportunity. Committee’s first annual report to Parliament, containing many recommendations, was published. He does not Rob Marris: I think the House will know what I am have to wait until next year to respond to it. Will he say going to say. The world is changing out there: already now whether a future Conservative Government will from climate change we have floods, pestilence, and accept all its recommendations? population movement. Are the hon. Gentleman and his party going to say anything about adaptation? Gregory Barker: I certainly cannot do that, and I have to plead guilty: I have not read all the report. Even if I felt that I could accept all the recommendations, I Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman: fear that that would be way above my pay grade. please show restraint. We have 18 hon. Members who still want to speak, and we have not reached the main We must consider whether we have been left behind debate yet. Three interventions really is excessive. on wind and solar energy and why we lag miserably on energy efficiency. We need to act now to ensure that we grasp the clear opportunities provided by offshore wind, Gregory Barker: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I carbon capture and storage, wave and tidal power and a shall try to bring my remarks to a close. The hon. host of other technologies. How much more British Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) innovation will go abroad? How many times will we see makes a good and strong point. He is the champion of such situations as the Pelamis wave energy convertor adaptation in the House, but I fear that, given the time going to Portugal before the Government wake up to constraints, this is not the debate in which to do that the damage that a lack of strong political leadership is subject justice. doing to us, and the extent to which it is setting back The 10:10 campaign is just that—a campaign. It is a this agenda? way to motivate and inform not only local communities Having fixed our frameworks for emissions reductions and individuals, but the Government. We need the in the Climate Change Act, we should focus entirely on Government to show that they are actually part of delivering and executing our comprehensive and ambitious the same community as we all live in. It is no good the vision for a low-carbon Britain, all the way from local individual members of the Cabinet signing up around to international level. Of all the things that we need to the Cabinet table to take action in their personal lives; do, energy efficiency is the lowest-hanging fruit; it is at we need them sitting at the Cabinet table taking action the far end of the McKinsey curve. Industry and consumers in their public lives. The ridiculous tokenism of saying, are waking up to that fact, and we just need the Government “Well, I’m doing something at home to change my gas to get with the programme. boiler,” when they sit in charge of departmental budgets As I mentioned earlier, many councils are still perplexed of, in some cases, billions of pounds, or a woefully by the mixed messages and lack of leadership from inadequate estate, such as that of the Department of central Government. That is why the 10:10 campaign Energy and Climate Change or all the other Departments has a job to do. If everybody were signed up and doing put together, is just not good enough. the necessary things, there would be no need for that We need Ministers to face up to their responsibilities sort of motivational campaign. The fact that there is and to realise that they do not have a monopoly on all still resistance is the reason why we need such a campaign. the solutions or good ideas. They do not even have the To give more local authorities, particularly smaller confidence to embrace the new, interesting and exciting ones such as my own in Rother, the confidence that they innovation out there. They really should join the rest of will need to deliver on their targets, which are easy to the world and support 10:10. 997 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 998

Several hon. Members rose— The hon. Gentleman said that we should work with the private sector. Has he not heard of the climate Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I realise that I am fighting change levy? How does he think that that came about? a losing battle on this occasion. There are a great many It was a major contribution to reducing carbon emissions, hon. Members, with great credentials on this subject, and it was done by the private sector voluntarily working who want to speak. We will start with the pre-announced with the Government to achieve the target. He just does limit of eight minutes on Back-Bench speeches, but not know what has happened since 1997, and that is after 6 o’clock it will be reduced to four minutes. why his judgments are so wrong today. As the Prime Minister recognises, adaptation, mitigation 5.27 pm and the other policies will require money. It is our Prime Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East) (Lab): Minister who has put a figure on the amount needed, I have listened to many of these debates and had the for the first time, and we will have to do a lot more to privilege of being involved in the Kyoto negotiations in achieve it. No other country has done that and we have 1997, when Britain played the leading part in concluding shown leadership, in the hope that we will achieve the Kyoto agreement. It is quite wrong for the hon. delivery internationally. We need global action and we Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) to be have done well in leading that. We also need national talking as if we have no direction and no delivery. I policies, and we have shown leadership with the low-carbon think he knows as much about this Government’s delivery road plan and the other issues that my hon. Friend the as he does about the recommendations of Committees Minister has worked on. She has an excellent record of the House. and I congratulate her. The motion before us may concentrate on 10:10, but I We also need action at a local level. I have campaigned will be fair to the Liberal party and say that it makes no in schools on the environment and specifically on 10:10, basic criticism of the leadership internationally. That is and I fully support it, but we have to balance that not the case made by the Conservatives, who clearly say campaign against the Government’s proposals and what that we did not live up to our obligations, that we did they will deliver over time. It is not long until 2020, and not deliver and that we did not show leadership. if we do not make the decisions by 2015 we will not May I instruct the hon. Gentleman a little bit on what achieve the reductions that we need, so we have set the Government did to earn respect abroad? He is quite targets nationally. wrong to suggest that China is critical. I have met The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness people globally, including the chief negotiator dealing (Mr. Stuart) is very vocal in my area in opposition to with climate negotiations in Beijing last week. As my wind farms, incinerators and anything that will help to hon. Friend the Minister said, the Chinese admire the deal with climate change. He should talk to the planning leadership that has been shown by this country. The people. Offshore we are on target, but onshore is more facts are clear, and people in government have to show difficult. Some 75 per cent. of all planning applications that. for wind farms are turned down, mainly by Tory authorities, We were the first country to achieve our Kyoto targets. including in the east Yorkshire area that he represents. We were one of only four countries that did so out of He campaigns on the basis that people want to keep the 15 that negotiated at Kyoto, and we did so ahead of their view, but that will not do anything to reduce the Kyoto timetable. That is showing leadership. carbon emission or increase alternative energy provision.

Gregory Barker: Before the right hon. Gentleman Mr. Graham Stuart: By forcing policy on people—as gets too carried away, can we just remember that the the former Deputy Prime Minister liked to do in all his only reason why the Government will meet their Kyoto policy areas—instead of working with them, we end up targets is the dash for gas in the 1990s? Without that, with fewer wind farms. The right hon. Gentleman is they would be nowhere near meeting them. always trying to overturn the local will of the people. That is what has caused the problem and that is why Mr. Prescott: Again, the hon. Gentleman shows his people reject his form of politics. ignorance. Let me tell him this: presumably, there was some leadership to achieve the targets and bring things Mr. Prescott: I do wish the hon. Gentleman would go together. Only four countries in Europe actually achieved and talk to his Tory council and see what is actually the Kyoto target, so we must have been all right on happening. I have 44 examples of wind farm applications delivery. We were the first to want to talk about carbon all over the country that have been turned down. They trading, which Europe then took over from us. We were were recommended by the planning officers, but they the first ones to bring in most of the changes well before were rejected by Tory councillors. On appeal, 70 per anyone else was involved. To that extent, we can easily cent. of those applications, which were rejected by the show leadership since Kyoto. elected authorities, are imposed because they are an Globally, we have made advances under the leadership essential part of our drive to reduce carbon emissions of this Government. When it comes to the argument for and increase alternative energy supply. Let us have a bit a statutory framework for carbon targets, tell me of any more sense and some more facts—[Interruption.] other country that has done that. If we look at other countries’ proposals, we are the most advanced. I have Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The the advantage of being the rapporteur for the Council hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) of Europe environment committee, together with my must not ask a question and then keep chuntering from hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Meale)—so a sedentary position while the answer is being given. I will go to Copenhagen—and I have had to look at what all the other countries have done. Without doubt, Mr. Prescott: The real issue is achieving agreement at we have led on the major changes and delivered them. Copenhagen— 999 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1000

Mr. Heald: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? because the Labour Whips would not allow it to do so.” Some Labour Members should ask themselves whether Mr. Prescott: No, because other hon. Members wish they want to be in that position. to speak. I do not think that the European deal, which is based Ms Buck: The right hon. Gentleman feels strongly on emissions and which I call plan A, will work. There that Parliament has to commit to the 10:10 campaign are 187 countries, not the 40-odd that were at Kyoto. We today, but why was that not proposed by the Liberal need consensus, and we need to recognise that 80 per Democrats as an amendment to the Climate Change cent. of the world lives in poverty. We are the 20 per Act 2008 when we passed it just a few months ago? Is it cent. who poisoned the world. The emissions argument not a fact that this is about not a serious, sustained in the European deal would mean that less developed reduction in carbon emissions, but a gimmick to make countries do not get the right to grow in the way that them feel better? they should, and they know that. Instead of measuring Malcolm Bruce: Hang on. I did not like the last bit of our progress on emissions—whether 20 or 30 per cent.—we the hon. Lady’s intervention. So 10:10 is a gimmick? Is should start talking about gigatonnes. Let us measure that what she is saying? The fact is that there was no that progress according to poisoning per head per year: 10:10 campaign when the 2008 Act went through in America it is 20 tonnes per head; in Europe 10 tonnes; Parliament, but there is now and it has widespread in Japan 12 tonnes; in China 5 tonnes; in India 2 tonnes; support individually and collectively. It is right for the and in Africa 1 tonne. Some 80 per cent. of the world’s House to use this opportunity to give a lead by saying, population suffer the poverty of living on less than $2 a “We wish to join that campaign as a Parliament,” as day. Unless Copenhagen recognises that the agreement well as by urging the Government and other bodies to must be about social justice, it will fail. do so. We must change, therefore, to a better way of measuring our progress. Many countries want to find an agreement; Hugh Bayley rose— they certainly do not want to be accused of failing. Malcolm Bruce: I am anxious to let other people However, we will not dot our i’s and cross our t’s at make their speeches. Copenhagen. We did not do that at Kyoto; we agreed The point that I want to get across is that all of us the principles and then we went to the conference of have to think hard about the practicalities involved and parties to renegotiate. At the end of the day, Copenhagen how we can engage with central and local government will mean the leaders getting together, and who is the on how we can help each other to achieve the aim of one man who has said that he will go to Copenhagen? joining the campaign. Who is leading? Our Prime Minister has made it clear that it will be a political fix. The world needs it and if we Joan Ruddock: I have defended, and explained, the are to look after our children and our children’s children, Government’s position. I have made no mention of the we had better start thinking seriously locally, nationally House and its administration, which is a matter for the and globally. Britain is giving the leadership on that. House. We have not in any way sought to prevent that from happening. 5.36 pm Malcolm Bruce: I am grateful for the Minister’s Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): My hon. Friend the intervention, and I accept her sincerity. On the other Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon hand, the House faces a practical problem. If it wishes Hughes) made it clear that the Liberal Democrats are to join 10:10, it needs to vote for the Liberal Democrat trying to focus on a very simple thing that the House motion, because it contains the wording that would could do today: sign up for the 10:10 campaign. I have allow that to happen. It is unfortunate that the Government, absolute admiration for the Minister. Her commitment in seeking to amend the motion, did not incorporate on this subject is acknowledged and her contribution is that part of it and so, I suggest, make it easier for their huge, but the fact remains that the Government sound own Members to support it. Some Labour Members like they are looking for excuses not to adopt a motion should examine whether they really want to be in the that her own policies would enable them to deliver if position of having rejected that option. they were implemented. Surely the House should be able to decide whether it signs up for 10:10. If the Hugh Bayley rose— House votes for the Government amendment, it will be unable to do so; only by voting for the Liberal Democrat Malcolm Bruce: I cannot take another intervention motion can the House assert that it wishes to do so. as others need to speak. I will come to what the right hon. Member for Hugh Bayley rose— Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) said shortly—I completely agree with his closing remarks—but before I Malcolm Bruce: I shall not take the hon. Gentleman’s do, let me say that we need to give people a lot more intervention, but I will anticipate it. He said that the help domestically to deliver reductions. We are still House of Commons Commission has indicated that it taking a rather scatter-gun approach. Everybody knows does not wish to go down that route, but that does not that there are technologies out there, but it is difficult to prevent the House from saying that it wants it to do so get hold of them. For example, for the past seven or and asking it to think again. The 10:10 website, which I eight years, I have been told that micro-combined heat looked at today, says that the House of Commons has and power systems will be available next year—indeed, the opportunity to sign up for 10:10 today and asks I am still told that. However, people find it difficult to people to ask their MP to do so. If the House does not know how to engage with that process and whether to pass this motion, I assume that tomorrow the website choose air or water source heat pumps, or where to get will say, “Parliament failed to join the 10:10 campaign them from. 1001 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1002

There is still a huge role for solar power in this Bangladesh with, through both practical resources and country, which is totally un-resourced. Indeed, the right technology. We have to commit to undertake to do that hon. Gentleman said in a previous incarnation that he at Copenhagen. It is about technology and money. would make it a building regulation that solar panels With that qualification, I welcome the Government’s would be incorporated into the roofs of all new indication that they accept wholeheartedly the limit of houses, but that does not seem to have happened. We 10 per cent. of overseas aid and development for climate therefore need to move towards giving people those change, but I suggest that there might be more strictures opportunities. than that, and perhaps voluntarily. The second one may I represent a constituency that is a major producer of not be acceptable, but the first is that we should consider oil and gas, and it will continue to be so for many taking climate change investment out of official decades to come. However, my constituency is also development assistance only if it also delivers poverty trying to adapt the technologies used for developing oil reduction at the same time. and gas to support the development of large-scale renewables systems, particularly in the marine environment. Barry Gardiner: Of course. That is being done by installing offshore wind farms Malcolm Bruce: Well, I take that as a given, but it is and tidal and wave technology, as well as other mechanisms important that that qualification is written in and the to which the technology developed to install oil and gas understanding is clear, so that projects are evaluated platforms and pipelines is appropriately adapted. Indeed, accordingly. we are looking for the opportunity to adapt such technology to deliver on our targets. The second stricture that I was considering was that this proposal would be uncomfortable for the United The point was made at a presentation in the House Kingdom and should perhaps apply only to the countries only a few months ago that if we are to deliver on our that have achieved the 0.7 per cent. of GDP. People in offshore wind targets, we need huge investment in lifting poor countries are saying that the 10 per cent. rule vessels that are capable of installing them, yet there is implies that 10 per cent. is being skimmed off the no indication that that is happening. As a consequence, development aid that they were expecting in order to we will not be able to achieve our targets. I am not deal with climate change, which is a problem of our criticising; I am simply saying that there is so much to making from which they are suffering. I agree with the be done if we are to deliver on that. Prime Minister that we must find substantial additional Finally, on the domestic front, I wonder whether the resources, and that we need to make it clear that those Government could use their unexpected role as the resources are going to be transferred from the rich owner of substantial parts of our financial institutions countries to the poor countries to help them to meet the to give people the mechanisms to invest in renewable challenge. technology and, in the process, create the thousands of I should like to mention one particular exchange with green jobs that would help us out of the recession and the Prime Minister. At one point, he called for the reduce our emissions. There is now a unique and unexpected World Bank to be turned into the environment bank. I serendipity of circumstances, which, if the Government shall give him the benefit of the doubt and say that that joined all those threads together, could enable us to was a well-intentioned suggestion, but our Committee move faster than we are. That is not a criticism of the saw the danger of the World Bank, which has as a prime Government, but perhaps a challenge and an invitation responsibility the reduction of poverty, being subsumed to take that idea forward. into making climate change a priority. I am glad to say I want to pick up on the remarks that the right hon. that that proposal has not been pursued. We need to Gentleman made about Copenhagen. He is absolutely tackle both problems. right: if Copenhagen degenerates into the rich nations’ The Minister and I were active in the GLOBE forum club, with those countries trying to decide how to share of legislators, which is still continuing. She and I chaired out their emissions, there will be no point in going. It is the first meeting in London, in the run-up to Gleneagles, as simple as that. Why on earth should the poor countries and another is taking place in Copenhagen this weekend. of the world sign up to anything that is conducted in Legislators from around the world are going to try to that spirit? help world leaders to come up with a text that is As the Chairman of the Select Committee on deliverable, that has the support of Parliaments— International Development, I know only too well that Governments and Oppositions—and that persuades the the perpetrators of climate change are us—the developed poor countries that there is a benefit to be gained, world—while the victims are the poorest countries in rather than a continuation of their suffering as a result the world. My Committee will be in Bangladesh and of climate change. If we can bind Parliaments and Nepal next week. Bangladesh is probably one of the Governments together, and bind successive Governments poorest countries in the world that is suffering most to meeting those commitments, we will have achieved a from climate change. Half the country could disappear great deal. I believe that the interaction of Parliaments in 20 years unless Bangladesh has not only the mitigation and Governments is the only way to do this, because measures, but the adaptation measures—the hon. Member Governments come and go, but Parliaments, although for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) has left they change, can continue to provide the steel in the the Chamber—to enable it to manage. commitment to ensure that we not only make targets As I found out from evidence given to my Committee but deliver the policies that will make a difference. yesterday, Bangladesh does not need a Dutch solution, because the way that the water flows there is a lot 5.46 pm different from how it stands in the Netherlands, and it Mr. Elliot Morley (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I am very therefore requires a different set of technologies. Those pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Gordon technologies are ones that the west will have to help (Malcolm Bruce). I know the amount of work that he 1003 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1004

[Mr. Elliot Morley] Mr. Morley: It may well; I accept that point. That is why I greatly welcomed what the Minister said about has put in, through GLOBE and other forums, and I the obligation on all Government Departments to have agree with a great deal—although not all—of what he carbon reduction plans in place by next April. It would said. I welcome this opportunity to discuss not only the be nice if that could be brought forward and if we could practical ways in which the Government can achieve have an evaluation of whether or not a 10 per cent. their own targets, but the wider implications, particularly target could be met. I certainly think that the Government in the lead-up to Copenhagen. should take that seriously as part of that carbon reduction I accept that the Government must lead by example. plan. They should look at a proper assessment of what They must set an example nationally—for the private can and cannot be done. sector and local authorities, for example—as well as Simon Hughes: I ask the right hon. Gentleman, who internationally. They have a lot to be proud of with is very knowledgeable, to accept two points. First, the regard to their international lead, and I appreciate that first 10 per cent. is often the easiest to obtain. Secondly, the Liberal Democrats acknowledged that. They have if bodies such as the NHS, which is the largest public given a world lead through the Climate Change Act 2008, sector organisation in this country and is larger than those through introducing the concept of carbon budgets, in many other countries, can say, “We think we can deliver”, which will be crucial for the delivery of our targets, and is it not ultimately a matter of will and intention rather through using market mechanisms, such as the emissions than technicality? The figures and assessments exist, trading scheme that has been developed by the European but it is all about the political will to deliver. Union. I also very much appreciate the fact that the Government Mr. Morley: I agree with most of those points. It is have been working together with the Foreign Office, the quite likely that the first 10 per cent. reductions are Department for Energy and Climate Change, the Treasury achievable in many cases, but I return to the point that I and our embassies abroad. They have held seminars do not know. I very much hope that the NHS signs and campaigned to build support for the objectives that up—it can do so, if it chooses, which is fine. The we must achieve at Copenhagen, and they deserve a Government do not control that aspect of the NHS, of great deal of credit for that. Their work is widely course, as they do not control local authorities, but I admired in many countries. That is not to say that we think that the NHS signing up would be a good thing. I cannot do more, however. Progress has been slow in also accept that there are savings to be had and appreciate some areas. that a great deal more could be done. The issue of the Department of Energy and Climate I welcome the fact that the Government have Change building and its energy rating provides a good acknowledged the importance of the 10:10 campaign in example. What concerns me is that the DECC building—it their amendment and have not tried to undermine it in was formerly owned by the Ministry of Agriculture, any way. The campaign has an important contribution Fisheries and Food; it is a Government-owned building— to make. It is directed at individuals and organisations, was actually gutted. The outside is original, but there is which will have to make up their own minds and evaluate nothing original on the inside. It was done not that long whether they will be able to achieve the target within ago, but who on earth set the standards for that? Why 12 months. The problem with the Liberal Democrat does it have such a low rating for what is a comparatively motion is that it does not define the public sector or modern construction? There is no excuse for it. What which aspects of government should be involved. I do DEFRA did in its recent refurbishment—for example, not know whether a 10 per cent. reduction can be the use of recycled carpet tiles and the introduction of achieved in 12 months; I suspect that, in truth, no one water-saving and energy-saving measures—provides an knows that. These targets are worth looking at, and to example of what can be done with an old building. The do so does not undermine the 10:10 campaign, but it Treasury received awards for its conversion of the old does no one any good to sign up to targets if they do Treasury building into a modern building. Clearly, there not have the necessary information to enable them to has been a failure with the DECC building, and someone deliver them. That would undermine the targets. is responsible for it. That is what worries me. Anne Main (St. Albans) (Con): You do it all the time. The Government are developing excellent frameworks and strategies, but the pace of progress in many cases is Mr. Morley: If the Government were to sign up to a slow. I know that work has been done on procurement, target that they were not sure they could deliver, I but I am not convinced about the way in which the suspect that the Opposition parties would not simply Government are delivering or whether they are exerting say, “Well, it was a bold move, and you did your best. the influence that they should. An awful lot more We understand.” That is not to say that targets do not could be done. I appreciate—I know it from my own have a role or to say that targets should not be viewed as experience—that the wheels of government turn at a important—indeed, the Government have set them. terribly slow rate, and I think that that is the case whatever Government are in power. It could be better. I Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): On that would be grateful if the Minister would ensure, in point, since the Government have already set themselves addition to the very welcome carbon reduction plans, long-term but very challenging targets, and since we that there is a mechanism for delivery—perhaps by already know from the report by the Committee on using the green Ministers’ network or perhaps by having Climate Change that they are not on a trajectory to a much tighter evaluation of Government procurement, meet those targets, should not the Government have the Government buildings and so forth. information, so that they know what to do to get back Schools were mentioned earlier. I, too, was concerned on target, which will probably require a 10 per cent. about the original standards, but they have been improved. reduction in the very near future? My own local authority is part of the current wave of 1005 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1006

Building Schools for the Future, and I am very encouraged round. Although I am pleased that the Government are by the work put into sustainability and energy saving. A on side, let us not take it as a great achievement. Let us great deal more could nevertheless be done, and the look at how things have played out. Building Schools Government could have an enormous influence. for the Future is still not right, because we still have to Let me deal briefly with Copenhagen, because it is choose between green schools and big enough schools. crucial. This year is crucial, because the outcome of As for recent changes, the new Ministry of Justice has Copenhagen is crucial—the outcome is crucial for every installed hydrofluorocarbon air conditioning, and the part of the globe, and it is not going to be easy to get the same is true of the new Home Office. We know that one that we want. There is still quite a gulf between HFCs are the most potent global warmer. We warned many countries, particularly between the developing the Government, and they heard the warning. They and the developed countries. My right hon. Friend the said that they would act, but they did not do so. In every Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) single case, we find the Government have not given the rightly touched on that, and I agree with what he said. lead that they should. I do not want to go on about There must be an outcome, but I worry that the Heathrow, but how on earth can one go and fight such a Copenhagen conference will just agree principles. There battle at Copenhagen, when one has given the go-ahead is some urgency, and Copenhagen must produce key to an utterly unnecessary and unacceptable extension to objectives. Firm commitments from developed countries Heathrow? on their emissions are necessary. Given how difficult I walked into my local prison—voluntarily, I am and crucial the conference will be, world leaders must happy to say—and I was pleased to see on its energy be there. I am proud that our Prime Minister has given a notice that it has the lowest level possible, and if there lead by saying that he will go, and we need President were a lower one, it would have that. When I asked, Obama there, because key players such as the US, however, I was told that there was no money for that. China, India and the UK will be very important. We are pouring out energy as a result of the fact that Some commitments from developing countries are not even the smallest things are being done. Take the necessary, although they should not be the same as scrappage scheme—no other Government would produce ours, as the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm a scrappage scheme that allowed one to scrap a car and Bruce) has mentioned, because they are entitled to buy the biggest gas guzzler one likes. Where is the develop as we have. However, they can develop in a connection there? clean way, and there is a role for the developed world It is all very well for the Minister to utter soothing in putting money into a clean technology fund. My words, but let us consider the Obama statement about last point, which my hon. Friend the Member for what the American Government would do. Some 38 per Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) will welcome, cent. of those measures contained a real green element, is that we need an adaptation fund to help the most but where were we? Somewhere down in the low teens. vulnerable, poorest countries adapt to what is happening Why were we not as good as the United States? Why now. were we not as good as Korea or even France? What The challenges are big and of great importance. I was the Minister doing in allowing the Prime Minister have great confidence in the leadership from our to put forward something that put us at the bottom of Government, but an awful lot of work must be done to the league? build confidence with other countries. Part of that confidence building is leading by example. I, for one, Joan Ruddock: The fact is that United States started am more than happy to sign up to the 10:10 campaign, from a completely different point, because we had done because we can give individual leads by example as well so much already. It was low-hanging fruit, and a very as national and international ones. That is the important different situation altogether. point that should come out of this debate. Mr. Gummer: I must tell the hon. Lady that that is 5.56 pm not true. If she goes through the measures put forward by the United States one by one, she will see that all of Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I have them could have been adopted with advantage here. If shown that I support the Government when they do the she had done that, we would have been at the top of the right things in this area. I honour the right hon. Member list rather than the bottom. for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) who, from a standing start, worked extremely hard at Kyoto, where The Government amendment illustrates why the Minister I was also part of the delegation, and gave a great does not carry conviction, and why the Government do reputation to Britain in those battles. I hope that he will not carry conviction. The amendment takes out anything therefore allow me to say that I am disappointed by the that would cause the Government to do something and Government’s actions in the run-up to Copenhagen, keeps in everything that would cause everybody else to which, if they had been different, would have given our do things. It reminds me of the beginning of “Wuthering negotiators a much better position. Heights”, which involves a man who is cleaning up outside going through the Bible in order to throw all the Mr. Heald: Will my right hon. Friend give way? curses at other people and to keep all the promises to himself. That is exactly what the Government are doing. Mr. Gummer: I will continue, if I may. It is a case of “You get on with the job, but give me the The Climate Change Act 2008, rather than being a credit.” The situation strikes me as really serious. great Government triumph, was, first, forced on the I hate saying nice things about the Liberal Democrats, Government, and, secondly, had to be constantly improved but if the Government had read the Liberal Democrat by the Opposition. I remember the battle on 80 per amendment, they would have noticed that they could cent., and how long it took to win the Government have included the House. We could meet the 10 per cent. 1007 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1008

[Mr. Gummer] 6.6 pm Nigel Griffiths (Edinburgh, South) (Lab): I am not a target merely by having a cool Chamber. The Chamber Johnny-come-lately to the environmental cause, having is incredibly hot today. Why on earth have we allowed joined Friends of the Earth shortly after it was formed that to happen? We would all be better with the odd and having campaigned with it throughout the course jumper in the winter and rather less heat. of three decades. I am particularly grateful to my hon. The Government have put themselves in a position in Friend the Minister and the Government for giving which it is difficult to defend their activities at home, Friends of the Earth £30,000 to go around Europe to and thrilling to support their statements abroad. We are campaign to ensure that in Copenhagen we realise its all proud of a Government who, with their consensus goals, and our goals too. attitude, have been trying their best to promote these matters. I do not for a moment take that away from the I cannot support the motion because it comes from a Minister. I am merely saying that we cannot go on party whose record when in power at local level, as well saying something abroad and not doing it at home. as when not in power, is absolutely woeful. To take just one example, trying to cut back on the use of cars Let me list five things that the Minister could do, in through road pricing is a key environmental policy, but addition to changing her mind about the motion. First, the Liberal Democrats are the party who opposed the the Government should commit themselves to not taking extension here in London, and fought and campaigned on any building of any kind that does not meet the against it being introduced in Manchester and my home highest energy rating. Secondly, they should commit town of Edinburgh, while all the time saying, “Of themselves to ensuring that that applies to all quasi- course, in principle we generally support it.” governmental organisations. It would not be difficult; it is quite possible—we are only talking about new actions to be taken in the future. Anne Main: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Thirdly, the Government could stand up and say that Nigel Griffiths: No, there is not time. it will ban HFCs. The Government voted with the “brown” people—the people in the European Union The Liberal Democrats are the party whose policy who did not want to ban them. They voted against statements say it wants to see hundreds of new trains Austria and Denmark. What were we doing supporting and a massive investment in rail, but in Edinburgh it the dirty team rather than the clean team? Why were could not find the £38 million last year that consultants our Government voting on the wrong side? recommended in order to reopen the south suburban Why do we have a climate change levy, which is only line stations and to ensure that up to 1.4 million commuting good because the name is good, and not a carbon tax? passengers were taken off our roads. What kind of attitude is that? The right hon. Member The Liberal Democrats are also, of course, the party for Kingston upon Hull, East, has left the Chamber who, wherever there is a wind farm project, find a good now that I have given him his compliment, but I will reason to oppose it and— give him the opposite now. He cannot defend a climate change levy that is a levy on energy and not on carbon. Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? The Government should change that forthwith. There are five very simple things that they could do, but they Nigel Griffiths: There is not time, I am afraid. are not even prepared to sign up to the 10:10 campaign. The Minister has put me in a difficult position. I do Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? not want to be directly unpleasant, but it is not possible to say that we cannot achieve the 10:10 target on the Nigel Griffiths: There is not time in four minutes. way to meeting our carbon budget. Let me explain why we have to do it. We have gone on for too long believing Martin Horwood rose— that if we say that something will be done by 2050, 2020 or 2015, it will all happen. We must show that it has to Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. When a Member says he be done now, because the urgency is huge. If the Minister is not going to give way and it is clear that he will not really thinks that this Government are so efficient, and give way, it is simply a waste of time for the hon. these buildings are so energy-efficient, that they cannot Gentleman to persist. manage a 10 per cent. decrease in one year, she is going against every bit of advice and anecdotal evidence. I do not know of a company worth its salt that has not seen Nigel Griffiths: Let me give the hon. Gentleman an that for economic reasons it has had to save 10 per cent. example to put in his pipe and smoke. In the western of its carbon footprint. Why do this Government not isles, where the principled Labour Member of Parliament say, “This is nothing to do with greenery; this is just to Calum MacDonald supported the independent local do with trying to balance the books. In the next year, in council’s bid to grant a wind farm, and where the this very difficult situation, we will do it.”? The Minister Member of the Scottish Parliament, Alasdair Morrison, must say that, and not simply say, “I don’t know how did the same, it was the hon. Gentleman’s party, along we’re going to do it. We may not be able to do it.” She with the Scottish National party and the Tories, who must stand up and say, “We’ll do it”, and then it will be ran the campaign against the wind farms there, as they done. do elsewhere, and succeeded in removing these two people of principle. That, I am afraid, is rather typical. Several hon. Members rose— I feel sorry for the Vestas workers in the Isle of Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. May I just remind the Wight, but it is no secret that its Conservative council House that from now on there will be a four-minute will not allow any wind farms to be put on the island. It limit on speeches? is then very difficult for such workers to argue in the 1009 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1010 interests of their manufacturing base if their own now. I have heard the Minister make many excellent neighbours—their own council—will not support them speeches when she was on the Back Benches, but her when they try to lobby Government or anyone else. contribution today was a terrible disappointment. When I want to praise my hon. Friend the Minister and she comes to write her autobiography in 30 years’ time, remind the House of the record of the £1 billion already she will not have this as her proudest day in support of spent—not promised, not mere words—on regeneration the environmental movement. and renewables, of the £97 million spent on marine, and When are the Government going to improve part L of the £31 million on photovoltaics. In my constituency, of the building regulations? When are they going to that has meant that the Napier university Collington take advantage of the 2004 Act, which this Minister complex library computers are now powered by supported, as did the Government at the time? When is photovoltaics, the development of which was paid for it going to come into force? May I also ask her when we by the Government. There is also the DART project to will have a spark of life on tackling the built environment? recycle tyres, that Professor Nick Christof and his colleagues Oh, how I agree with the right hon. Member for Suffolk, have pioneered with £100,000 from the Government. Coastal (Mr. Gummer)—we are not building schools That is part of the £1 billion already invested. I am for the future; we are building schools just as we did in delighted to note that we are stepping up our investment. the past. We have to tackle the issue of public buildings, That will benefit the country. I urge the House to reject the built environment in the public sector and homes—the the motion. legislation is in place to do so. The Audit Commission wants her to do that, as does the Association of British 6.10 pm Insurers. I could cite a tremendously long list here. This House wants her to do it, so for goodness’ sake let us Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I rise to support start tackling the problem of the building stock now. my hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) and this motion. Ever since I entered this House in 1997, I have had a deep 6.14 pm interest in this issue and have tried to ensure that this Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): I will tell hon. House took it seriously. I served as my party’s energy Members how the Liberal Democrats in Brent sign up spokesman for about eight years, during which time I to the 10:10 campaign. Under the Labour party, Brent shadowed seven Labour Energy Ministers—I believe council was on track for a 20 per cent. reduction in its there were also five Conservative shadow Ministers, so emissions by 2011. On Monday, the Liberal Democrats consistency has not always been around in this area. and their Tory partners in the administration signed up, In 2004, I was fortunate to be top of the ballot and with great fanfare, to the 10:10 campaign. At the next able to introduce the Sustainable and Secure Buildings executive committee meeting they will take delivery of Bill in this House. I wish to say to the House and to the proposals, which they intend to support, that will reduce the Minister that there have been missed opportunities as a figure from 20 per cent. to 6 per cent. by 2011. Under consequence of the Government not choosing to implement the Liberal and Tory policies at Brent council, the what was in that Bill, which allowed them to amend the 20 per cent. reduction will not be reached until 2020. building regulations to take account of the sustainability I regret the tone of today’s debate. Normally when we and efficiency of buildings. The Minister knows this debate matters of climate change, we have a considered very well, but I wish to remind her that buildings are and measured debate that is consensual and, usually, responsible for more than 60 per cent. of this country’s good. The responsibility for the way in which this carbon emissions. If we are to make any serious effort debate has gone is to be found in the nature of the to tackle the problem, we have to do something about Liberal Democrat motion. The Liberal Democrats know, we buildings. know and everybody in the House knows that it was I also wish to remind the Minister that the Sustainable tendentious. It was put forward, as my hon. Friend the and Secure Buildings Act 2004, as the Bill became, has Member for Regent’s Park and Kensington, North lain dormant for five years and that the Department for (Ms Buck) said, as a gimmick, to try to bandwagon Communities and Local Government has a consultation and to do something that the Liberal Democrats document out on the next generation of building regulations thought might be populist and might embarrass the that still does not include any reference to implementing Government. That is why the debate has taken the that Act or making any of its provisions legally enforceable. shape that it has. I am not sure, because this has not been mentioned, The hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory whether any other Member in the House is aware that Barker) spoke, quite properly, about the discussions the Audit Commission today published a report entitled that he had had with the Chinese delegation this morning “Lofty ambitions”, which makes the point that the under the auspices of GLOBE and of the discussions single most important thing that the Government could that he had had with Congressman Wang. The hon. do to reduce carbon emissions would be to increase the Gentleman also said—although it was when he departed regulatory requirements in part L of the building regulations from his script and got carried away—that that was why and commence an immediate programme to tackle the the Chinese did not take the Government seriously. terribly poor standard of our building stock. Such an Earlier this afternoon, as I was chairing the GLOBE approach would reduce people’s bills, reduce fuel poverty, discussions with Congressman Wang, I happened to increase the quality of life of the people living in these note down what he said: “The UK is one of the few houses and help to save the planet. countries that has honoured their commitment and I was terribly disappointed by the Minister’s speech. achieved their targets and I wish that all developed The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East countries would learn from the UK in this respect.” I (Mr. Prescott) made one of the best speeches that I have am afraid that that knocks out of the water the remarks heard him make—that is because he is a Back Bencher made by the hon. Gentleman. 1011 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1012

Gregory Barker: What I actually said was that the that, if we are to reduce carbon emissions, we have to Chinese Government set much more store by short-term expand our capacity to produce food in the UK. It is action than by long-term targets and that although I one of the easiest things that the Government could do thought that it was not a case of either/or, I could to tackle climate change, and there are thousands of certainly see their point. innovative farmers around the country itching to take the lead. Barry Gardiner: Hansard will show what the hon. The reduction in capacity is happening because the Gentleman said. Government will not tackle seriously the power of I want to turn to the real point, which was mentioned supermarkets, which place no environmental standards by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon on their procurement policies and will not act to ensure Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). It concerns gigatonnes. This fair trade for our farmers so that they stay in business. weekend, I will be going to Copenhagen as part of the As we have heard, the public sector spends about £2 billion GLOBE delegation and we will present to the Danish a year on food procurement for Government Departments, Prime Minister, ahead of the negotiations in December, schools, prisons and hospitals. The NHS is the largest the proposals from a group of legislators across the food purchaser in the country, spending nearly a quarter globe on the issue. The key point is gigatonnes, as of the total public sector food budget, yet 75 per cent. 17 gigatonnes of annual emissions reductions need to of the meat and fish used in our hospitals is imported take place by 2020. The reduction of only 5 gigatonnes from abroad. can take place in the developed countries at less than Another dreadful consequence of the importation of ¤60 per tonne. That means that although the problem meat products is the destruction of the rain forest. has been created, as my right hon. Friend said, by the Every 10 minutes, an area the size of 200 football developed countries, they are not capable within their pitches is chopped down in the Amazon rain forest, all own boundaries of producing the gigatonnes of solutions to provide pasture land for cattle or to make way for soy that are required to mitigate this problem. The funding plantations to provide feed for them. We could—and for that extra 12 gigatonnes of abatement must come should—produce both in this country, slashing food from the developed countries and be put through to the miles and ensuring the preservation of the crucial carbon developing nations so that they can sustain equitable sink that is the rain forest. growth and standards of living and so that they can rise out of poverty on a low-carbon trajectory. That is the Lynne Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman going to mention critical issue. the increased emissions as a result of our huge food At Copenhagen, although we must sign under a waste? That is far more significant than food miles for post-2012 protocol, the developed countries must sign our CO2 emissions. up to emissions and commit ourselves to those emissions Tim Farron: The hon. Lady has read my mind, as I reductions. We must also, on top of that, bear down on was about to mention that. About one in three of the the caps so that we can generate through offsets the bags of food that we purchase at the supermarket or amount of money that is needed to bring people out of wherever is effectively dumped. We wasted £10 billion poverty in the developing world. worth of food in the last year, which is the equivalent of 6.19 pm throwing away every third bag. The contribution to harmful emissions from landfill and emissions associated Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): In with wasted production is immense. There has been no supporting the motion, I shall restrict my comments leadership on tackling that from the Government: they exclusively to the Government’s failure to demonstrate have not attempted to address the wasteful, buy-one-get- leadership over climate change when it comes to our one-free culture or, for example, the unbelievably fussy food market and reducing food miles. and excessive guidance on sell-by dates. Cutting out The world’s population is set to increase by 50 per that waste would reduce greenhouse gases, as the hon. cent. over the next 40 years. Demand for food is set to Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) double in that time, yet the Government have presided suggests, by the equivalent of taking one in every five over a criminal reduction in this country’s food production cars off the road. capacity. That matters, because the Government’s target The Government have also failed dismally when it of an 80 per cent. reduction in carbon emissions—to comes to making sustainable use of food waste. Why which we all agreed—looks ludicrous when set against are we not transforming organic waste into green energy? the ever-expanding emissions caused by the transportation In Germany, there are 25,000 anaerobic digesters, but of rapidly increasing amounts of food from overseas to there are only 38 in the UK. I hope that the 39th digester our tables. will be opened soon in Casterton in my constituency, According to the Government’s own figures, since but that will be the result of work done by the local 1997 the proportion of imported meat has increased by community, and despite the Government. two thirds, the proportion of eggs that we have imported In conclusion, nearly everyone—apart from one or has tripled, and the proportion of vegetables that we two of the Tories’ mates—now accepts that climate import has risen by one third. In the last two years change is real and the result of human activity. However, alone, the proportion of liquid milk that we import has if that is the case, it can be reversed by human activity increased by almost 60 per cent. If we are going to as well, with “activity” being the important word. It is tackle climate change, we must ensure that we produce important that the Government act. They need to do as much as possible of the food that we eat as close to the simple things as well as the difficult things, because home as we can. they are what will make the difference in this crucial To do that, we have to ensure that we produce more fight. The good news is that some of the simplest things food, not less, with the help of a farming industry that that the Government could do to tackle climate change is confident and not fearful about its future. That means are to be found in the food market. 1013 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1014

6.24 pm The Government’s record on combating climate change is not perfect, but it is arguably the best of any country Mr. Michael Meacher (Oldham, West and Royton) in the world. I am pleased and proud to support them in (Lab): The Liberal Democrat motion deals with climate the Lobby tonight. change leadership, but I think that by any standards the Government’s record in this area is pretty good. The UK is the first country in the world to set up rolling 6.27 pm carbon budgets, and to have set a carbon emission Chloe Smith (Norwich, North) (Con): I thank the reduction target of 80 per cent. by 2050. The Government Deputy Speaker for giving me the chance to speak, and are the first to have set up a prestigious and independent I thank the Liberal Democrats for initiating the debate. Climate Change Committee to advise them, and they I echo the sentiments of the hon. Member for Hazel also included aviation and shipping in the Climate Grove (Andrew Stunell) that everybody wants to tackle Change Act 2009 and introduced feed-in tariffs. So far, climate change. The question is how we do that. I shall so good. limit my comments to that being a matter of trust—the Of course there are still problems, as there are in plans that the Government have for being trusted to every country in the world. We should acknowledge deliver a response. those problems. Yes, we have not done anything like I applaud voluntary action and fully support the enough in carbon emissions reductions to meet the 10:10 campaign. I am proud to have been able to answer 60 per cent. target, let alone an 80 per cent. target. We many of my constituents already by saying that I fully have committed ourselves to trebling airport capacity support their campaign to have us support that. But we by 2050, which would have the opposite effect. It would know that Government action is also necessary.Combating neutralise most, if not all, of the carbon reductions in climate change is not something that individuals can do virtually every other sector. on their own. I welcome the bipartisan and tripartisan The commitment to building the first coal-fired power approach in the House today, and the commitment of station at Kingsnorth in Kent is not very wise, when so many Members to action on climate change, and I carbon capture and storage is highly unlikely to be welcome the previous achievements of the House in available commercially for at least 15 years. On this passing the Climate Change Act 2008 to contribute island with enormous renewables capacity, we have a towards what we all know we need to do. great deal more to do, as we still generate only 4 per The Government’s current plan lasts for 10 years and cent. of electricity from renewables, compared to 10 to requires buy-in. That is what we must ensure by contributing 25 per cent. in the other big European countries and 30 a little towards that today in the debate. We may require to 50 per cent. in Scandinavia. a general election for a full mandate for such a plan, but I shall mention briefly three other areas for the before that moment comes next year, which I am sure forthcoming Copenhagen summit, where I believe it is we will all welcome, we must take the opportunity for necessary to make significant further advance and, above international action. Many hon. Members around the all, to get the developing countries on side. Without House have commented on what must be achieved at that, we will make no progress at all. First, substantially Copenhagen later this year. slowing the rate of deforestation worldwide, which is I come back to the domestic aspect. I shall speak causing something like 20 per cent. of global emissions, about it as a matter of trust, and about what people should be a major objective of the Copenhagen look to us in the House to do. I hope I am not being too negotiations—not by giving enormous sums of money cheeky in suggesting that as the most recent Member to to the major countries involved, because all that money enter the House, I may bring with me a view from would certainly be filtered off into the pockets of corrupt outside. That is to say that any Government action will officials, but by tough international action against illegal require clear measurement, and the Government will logging corporations, which should be held to account have to go through a whole sequence: understanding and prosecuted in the courts of the metropolitan countries. the problem; diagnosing action that is possible; selecting Secondly, we should champion a drive towards a the tools that we can use to go about those actions; worldwide carbon tax and show that we mean it by setting targets; empowering people to meet those targets; looking to introduce it ourselves, to be fiscally neutral and grasping the incentives available to help people to by corresponding offsetting on VAT. That could do do that. I return to the value of the 10:10 campaign as a more than any other single measure to green the voluntary tool; it enables people to say, “We can do this, international economy and to arrest the spread of climate we want to do this, we want to be held to account, and catastrophe. we want the Government to join us.” Thirdly, we should reverse the current policy on The Government plan must then be trackable and carbon offsetting, which is allowing 50 per cent. and measurable. I welcome the recent publication of the perhaps as much as 70 per cent. of carbon credits to be Turner report, saying that the Government must be purchased from abroad, which is a sort of “get out of held to account for their actions. It says, too, that in the jail free” card and removes the pressure for major coming months measurement will be harder, because of qualitative change within the UK. It is flawed by the distortions due to the level of economic activity, or lack additionality problem, but more particularly, the big thereof. Against that backdrop, we must make doubly countries—China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Indonesia sure that the Government—of any colour—can be trusted and Mexico—will co-operate only if they see that we to do what we all want them to do. who, in their view, caused the problem are taking sufficient We cannot drop any part of the cycle that I have just action. If they think we are simply buying our way out outlined. People must be able to trust that the Government’s abroad while doing too little at home, they will not plan will do all those things, and observe the Government co-operate. Then the global problem will be insoluble. doing all those things, so that individuals know that 1015 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1016

[Chloe Smith] talk about the 10 per cent. commitment at a personal level; this is 10 per cent. at a collective level, which at the they are getting what they have signed up to—what same time as saving carbon and saving the planet, they have put their necks on the line for, and said they would take the poor out of fuel poverty—an adaptation will do. measure that saved lives. Only last Friday, I had the pleasure of visiting in my constituency a school—not a Building Schools for the Lynne Jones: Given that huge numbers of the public Future school, but a local academy—with a wonderful use public buildings and that behavioural change could new building that serves as a teaching tool for the take place, does my hon. Friend agree that if it is not children on energy efficiency. That is the kind of measure practicable for the Government to achieve a 10 per cent. that we need to help people to trust that things can be reduction in the next year or so, it is not practicable to done and to learn how things can be done. achieve our other targets? Finally, I draw the House’s attention to the question Alan Simpson: I do not believe that it is impossible for of how this Government will gain the mandate for their the Government to achieve that 10 per cent. reduction. 10-year plan. If they do not, we must seriously question One of the ways in which they could deliver on it is by the measure. not only accelerating the introduction of the feed-in 6.31 pm tariff regime that they propose, but changing the framework from one that works back from a minimalist, fairly Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): I fully measly assumption that we can deliver only 2 per cent. endorse the 10:10 campaign and proposals, and I hope of our energy by 2020 from renewable tariffs to one that the House will fully endorse them and sign up to with a target of 10 per cent., 15 per cent. or even almost them tonight. The Government are right that we need 20 per cent. more than a one-year strategy, because we have to have a strategy that takes us through to 2020, but the most For those who say that that is too much, let me refer important part of the imperative in signing up to the to a conversation that I had with colleagues in Germany campaign has not come from any argument in this this morning about their proposals for delivering 100 per House; it came in September from Rajendra Pachauri, cent. of renewable energy for their economy by 2050. I the head of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate said, “Look, isn’t that a bit ambitious?” One of them Change. He gave us all the starkest warning—the shot said, “Well it might be, but let me ask if you are aware across the bows—when he said that it would not be that last weekend 90 per cent. of Germany’s energy enough for the world to aim to restrict carbon emissions came from wind and solar?” It presented a bit of a to 450 ppm. problem on Monday when the rest of the energy-generating systems had to kick back in, but that is an interfacing If we wish to keep climate change to within a 2° C issue about a transformation into a very different future. rise this century, the practical limit will have to be 350 ppm. We are already at 385 ppm and the question The difficulty for the UK is that we have set a is: how do we row back from that? The starting point is threshold of ambition that will deliver the failure that it now. Rajendra Pachauri urged on us the point that what is designed to deliver. All we lack is the ambition to we do in the next three years will determine the shape of drive the transformation. We can start to achieve it by so much that follows. I am therefore happy to sign up to signing up to the 10:10 commitment and raising the the belief that we need to set a 10 per cent. target for the level of feed-in tariffs to make a meaningful difference, coming year, and probably for the year after and the and then we will save the generations who follow us. year after that—for at least the five years that follow. It 6.37 pm is not a question of what the political will requires; it is an acknowledgement that the world will not wait. The Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): It is a two most important parts of the motion before us, on delight to hear the hon. Member for Nottingham, South which I shall focus, are first, the significance of the built (Alan Simpson) talk about fuel poverty in such impassioned environment, and secondly, the mechanisms that will terms. That is precisely the issue that I tried to address drive us into a renewable energy future. through the Fuel Poverty Bill which I presented to The point has already been made that the built Parliament and which, shamefully, this Government environment contributes 60 per cent. of our carbon and this Minister finally killed off last Friday. emissions. If we were to set the targets that would meet As I walk around the parts of my constituency that our legally binding obligation to eradicate fuel poverty are below sea level and see the houses that are flooded in Britain by 2016, we would have to set a standard each year, and as I look at the one-in-25-year and assessment procedure rating for housing of 81, and one-in-50-year events that are now happening regularly, establish a building renewal programme of about £4 billion the scientist in me says, “You cannot extrapolate from a year between now and 2016. It is a lot of money, but the particular to the general,” but my heart tells me that we could save that amount in respect of many speculative something is going badly wrong. That is what is causing schemes that cost the Government, the taxpayer and so many people in this country to recognise at long last the bill payer far more. that there is an urgency to this—that it is something If we were to do that, what we would achieve? The that we cannot wait any longer to deal with. figures that have been provided to the House are staggering. That is why the 10:10 campaign is so important, and If we were to set up that programme, we would take why it is so disappointing to hear the Government, yet 81 per cent. of the fuel poor out of poverty by 2015. In again, using all the excuses in the book to say that they doing so, we would reduce the terawatt hours of energy will not do something positive about it instead of saying, consumption by 48.1 TWh. That would mean a percentage “This is something that we want to embrace—it’s consistent reduction in energy consumption of 56 per cent. and a with our principles and what we say we’re going to do reduction in carbon emissions of 59 per cent. People about public buildings, so yes, we will make it happen.” 1017 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1018

I agree with the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal peninsula institute for marine renewable energy, which (Mr. Gummer), who made a superb speech in support is a joint project of Exeter and Plymouth universities. of the contention that if the Government cannot achieve Those projects will make major contributions to the the 10:10 objectives, they cannot achieve the other national targets on which we have to deliver, and they objectives that lie in the future. are an important illustration of how we need to continue It is deplorable that the Government, by virtue of to invest at a strategic level. That investment will take deleting the reference in our motion, are not allowing time to deliver. Parliament itself to sign up to 10:10, given that there is Locally, people in Plymouth are doing their bit. Not hardly a Member in this House who does not believe surprisingly in a constituency with 450 marine scientists that the Commission could do the necessary work if it and 1,500 environmental students, the university is top- put its mind to it and that we should instruct it to do so. performing in environment and sustainability, as rated I hope that Labour Back Benchers will be prepared to by People and Planet in its green energy league table. take a risk tonight and come into the Lobby with us to There are businesses such as the Caribbean Car Wash, insist that that should be the case. which has set a benchmark for high-quality eco-friendly Lynne Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? car washing by reducing to half a litre the amount of water necessary to clean and valet a car. Mr. Heath: I have only one minute left. I regret that our Tory council has not signed up to the What we have done in this House is considerable, and 10:10 agreement and that its leader set a bad example the Government should take credit for the good things by objecting to a school’s planning application for two that they have achieved, such as the Climate Change small wind turbines and then employing a consultant Act. They arrived at it by dint of pressure from all parts when the school appealed. I regret the daft proposals to of the House, but it is of value. They rejected feed-in sell the green jewel in our city’s crown, a successful bus tariffs for a long time but eventually accepted them— company that is one of the few in the country to have although I agree that the design of them is deplorable. added passengers in recent years. They are groping towards an energy policy, but there is The 10:10 campaign is excellent, but no one should no coherence to it. use it to talk down what we are achieving and our I look at all those things and think that we have an position of international leadership. Practicality is opportunity to arrive at consensus. We are lucky compared everything, and as my hon. Friend the Minister said in with America, where there are divergent views. We her opening remarks, some Departments have already generally have a consensus in this country, not just taken the low-hanging fruit. Carbon budgets, mocked between the political parties but with big business. We from the Tory Benches, will build on that success. have a huge opportunity, and we can do so much more There are those who are still sceptical, although it if we shut off the poverty of aspiration that still bedevils may be that none of them are present in the House us and grasp the fact that doing the right thing is not today. It took only one small mistake to detract from only right environmentally but right economically. The Al Gore’s brilliant film “An Inconvenient Truth”. The hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) Government have to act responsibly, especially on matters made that point. So many of the measures that we can in which they have already gathered in some of the take make economic sense, particularly in a recession low-hanging fruit. when we are trying to save money. We can save the environment while saving money and creating jobs, and 6.44 pm that should be the aspiration of this House. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Copenhagen is 6.41 pm our last best chance to avoid catastrophe. For 30 years Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/Co-op): Like we have known about man-made climate change and I my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Barry am deeply proud that the Liberal party, all those years Gardiner), I regret the tone of the debate. As has been ago, was the first British political party to address it. amply shown, there is plenty of leadership at national Since then, the science has become clearer and more level. I wish to talk about how that translates through to worrying. There is now a clear global consensus among regional and local leadership. scientists that climate change is man-made but still In Exeter we have the green jewel in the south-west’s preventable by human action—just. crown, the Met Office, which the Conservatives’ defence The economics have also become clearer. The sooner spokesman recently seemed to think it would be a good and more urgently we act, the less risk of an economic idea to sell off at this critical time. Our regional leadership collapse that will make the current recession look like a has come from the former and current regional Ministers, vicarage tea party. The Stern report spelled that out my right hon. Friends the Members for Exeter very clearly.It concluded that an atmospheric concentration (Mr. Bradshaw) and for South Dorset (Jim Knight), of about 550 parts per million CO2 was perhaps adequate working alongside the South West of England Regional as a stabilisation target. It is now pretty clear that that Development Agency. The Conservatives would abolish was much too high. the RDAs, but that leadership has ensured that there We now know that about 2° C of global warming is are key priorities in our region on resource efficiency, all but inevitable, and that there is a significant risk of renewable energy, waste management, climate change 4°, 5° or 6° C unless we have a concerted international adaptation and low-carbon technologies. deal. That would mean catastrophic disruption of food That has led to the region being the first to be given production, irreversible collapse of ice sheets and rain low-carbon economic area status as part of the forests, huge areas of the planet rendered uninhabitable Government’s low-carbon industrial strategy. That and mass displacement of people. With my background designation involves £30 million for the wave hub energy in Oxfam, I know what unimaginable human misery demonstrator off Cornwall and £15 million for the that would mean. 1019 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1020

[Martin Horwood] Those were her very words. It is also worrying that she cast doubt on the Government’s ability to sign up to As environmental shocks mount, more and more 10:10 despite the fact that her Department has done nations realise that a global deal is in their interests. so. Look at the list of organisations that have had that China and India now clearly understand that. They ambition and signed up to 10:10. It includes the have many of the poorest people in the world, who will Environment Agency; Newcastle, Liverpool, Edinburgh be the hardest hit by global warming. They have taken a and Bristol universities; 52 local councils responsible lead on many issues, including renewable energy and for 8.8 million people, including most recently, I am reforestation, in their own countries. proud to say, Bristol City council; more than 150 schools; We all agree that Britain also needs to take a lead; 40 NHS trusts; B&Q; Aviva; Microsoft; Atkins Global; Parliament needs to take a lead. I pay tribute to the and the Royal Mail—the latter does not get everything House of Commons Commission and the parliamentary right, but it has signed up to the 10:10 campaign. It is a estates management, which are making efforts. Only fantastic campaign that has finally captured the real this week, they met myself and some of my constituents sense of urgency that is needed to put us on almost a to attempt to find a solution to the large numbers of war footing—that psychology that we must act soon to high-energy candle lights that proliferate on the estate, avert catastrophe. which take enormous numbers of people to replace all We have had one or two regrettably partisan and the time. bad-tempered speeches. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Nigel Griffiths) claimed that the Liberal Democrats Hugh Bayley: I shall ask a question that I asked of opposed wind power at local level. I can tell him about Conservative Members. Earlier this week, the Commission York, Leeds, Ipswich, Lewes, Cheltenham, Birmingham, decided that it would not sign up to the 10:10 commitment. Islington, West Berkshire, Devon, Vale of White Horse The hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), and Cornwall—I do not have time to finish the list. who speaks for the Commission in the House, is a However, we have mostly heard real passion and wide Liberal Democrat. Did he support the Commission’s support on both sides of the House. Many of the view? contributions have shown why the 10:10 campaign has Martin Horwood: I was giving credit to the Commission captured the public imagination. for the work that it has done, but I am afraid that on the I am proud to have followed my hon. Friend the 10:10 campaign the Chamber must trump the Commission. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon This is where we decide on Parliament’s ambitions. Hughes), who has shown leadership on environmental I also give credit where it is due to the Government. It issues for a few decades—I will not embarrass him by is fair to say that they have shown leadership in helping saying how many—and helped to make the Liberal to put climate change on the international agenda and Democrats such a green party. introduced the world’s first climate change Act, although To the Conservative Front Bench, I say that I forgive they were dragged somewhat reluctantly to the target of their nuclear peccadilloes and some of the people with 80 per cent. However, it was supported by the Government whom they keep company in Europe on climate change, in the end, which is good. They have also shown a and the occasional Back-Bench outburst on wind power, commitment to renewable energy and carbon capture and pay tribute to the hon. Member for Bexhill and and storage, although they showed similar reluctance Battle (Gregory Barker) on his articulate defence of the on feed-in tariffs and left something of a giant loophole 10:10 campaign. He rightly pointed out that there is no in the CCS policy. conflict between carbon budgets of the kind supported However, the Government must also accept that there in the Climate Change Act 2008 and the 10:10 campaign are some worrying signs of complacency and lack of commitment. In fact, I would go further and say that urgency. As the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal committing to 10:10 will make those carbon budgets (Mr. Gummer) pointed out, it does not really compute easier and cheaper to achieve for the British economy. that the Government can give the go-ahead to the third I also give credit to the hon. Member for Nottingham, runway at Heathrow based on flawed calculations of South (Alan Simpson) and all those Labour Back Benchers the future cost of climate change while trying to maintain who have signed up to the 10:10 campaign. I hope that an international position as strong as that of President they are prepared, just this once, to defy the party Obama. The right hon. Gentleman was spot on when Whips and do the right thing for this country, for the he spoke of how much greener most of the stimulus planet and the environment. packages around the world are than our own. I make a final appeal to the Minister. She has a proud There is a constant recitation that we have been on record as a political campaigner. Many members of my target for Kyoto when, as the hon. Member for Bexhill party have followed her on marches in the past and and Battle (Gregory Barker) pointed out, that target listened to her defiance of the establishment. Her Secretary was met long ago by the dash for gas. Actually, if the of State has asked for a popular mobilisation to help to target is met, it will be partly because of the recession— push through action on climate change. Well, we have [Interruption.] I am sorry, but it is true. got that. It is called the 10:10 campaign and tonight is The Government are at risk of being seen to ask the night when we can take a decision as a Parliament to everybody else to act, but not to act themselves. They support it. The Minister has signed her Department up have an energy bill of some £4 billion and massive to it and she says that Departments are working hard to buying power. The public sector has the chance to shape improve their admittedly miserable record to date. It is entire markets, and how British industry and the private therefore a mystery why she will not allow her colleagues sector respond to the challenge of climate change. It is to commit the whole Government—or at least this very worrying that the Minister, I hope in a lapse, Parliament—to the 10:10 campaign. This is our chance described the 10:10 campaign as a gesture—[Interruption.] to send the clearest possible signal to campaigners 1021 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1022 across the country and negotiators on Copenhagen Departments reduce their emissions? Is that not a very across the world that we are committed to urgent action. good reason to vote for the amendment? The truth is that the Minister probably does support Mr. Kidney: I confirm what my hon. Friend says. This this campaign and it is the establishment in the Treasury, country already has a good track record on energy No. 10 or Lord Mandelson’s Department who have got efficiency, and I agree, going forward, that energy efficiency to her. This is the moment when she should join hon. is an important part of the entire package in reducing Members on both sides of the House, rediscover her our need to consume energy. radical roots, be brave, ambitious and bold, and believe that together we can do more than we think we can—and Just today, we started on the next stage of our energy support this motion. efficiency policy for domestic properties with the first of the community energy saving programme schemes—going 6.53 pm house by house, street by street. That is the kind of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy approach for which many hon. Members have argued. and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): We have had In our transition plan, which has been welcomed 17 excellent speeches. Although the tone of the debate around the country and around the world, we say that has been sparky, as a couple of hon. Members have we need to move to a low-carbon transformation involving commented, that edge has illuminated the issues before the trinity of renewables, nuclear power and clean fossil us. I noted that when the hon. Member for North fuels. It is a shame that we cannot persuade the Conservative Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) opened party to support wind power in this country to its full the debate, he said that he would applaud the Government capacity. According to a Greenpeace report, councils for the things that we have done well, and he did so in controlled by Conservatives are turning down and holding his speech. However, we did not fail to notice that no up onshore planning applications around the country. credit is given in the motion for anything good that the Also, according to the Financial Times today, the shadow Government have done, and I regret that. Business Secretary said that the Tory policy is that no I have signed up to the 10:10 campaign. In fact, that permission be given for onshore wind, even though it, benefited me in this debate, because I first heard that it along with offshore wind, on which we are No. 1 in the was taking place today in a text message from the world, powered 2 million homes last year. campaign. The campaign is valuable for the reasons Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of speaking time that many hon. Members mentioned in the debate—it is left, but I want to confirm one important aspect of the a bottom-up campaign that draws people in, persuades transformation to 2020: our passionate intention that it people to take action and is voluntary. I wish that I had be a just transition from which all our citizens benefit only a fraction of its skill in communications. Only a and that no one be left behind. I want Members’ couple of weeks ago, I launched the carbon reduction suggestions for how we can ensure that the kind of commitment energy efficiency saving scheme. That massive things that we will introduce, such as green mortgages, cap-and-trade scheme, which starts next year and covers the pay-as-you-save scheme, the feed-in tariffs next year, every Department, most of local government and most the renewable heat incentive the year after and the of the local bodies referred to tonight, did not get a smart meters roll-out, benefit every citizen, including patch of the coverage that the 10:10 campaign has the worst off in this country— received already. It is remarkable that decision makers David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD) claimed to move in the House during this debate gave no recognition of the closure (Standing Order No. 36). the fact that, starting next year, the CRC will begin to Question put forthwith, That the Question be now reduce emissions across the entire public sector. put. Some people say that to start now we have to sign up Question agreed to. to 10:10 across the entire sector. Have people such short Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), memories? This year, the House passed the carbon That the original words stand part of the Question. budgets, which we have already started to implement and which will put us on a trajectory to get us to the The House divided: Ayes 226, Noes 297. 34 per cent. reduction in our emissions that we need to Division No. 229] [6.59 pm reach by 2020. AYES The Government’s record to date is fine. I accept Afriyie, Adam Boswell, Mr. Tim what the Committee on Climate Change said about the Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Brady, Mr. Graham need for a faster rate of improvement in the years up to Alexander, Danny Brake, Tom 2020, and that is what our plans intend to achieve, but Amess, Mr. David Brazier, Mr. Julian please do not ask us to dislocate the plans made to 2020 Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Breed, Mr. Colin that start now and involve the efficient allocation of Atkinson, Mr. Peter Brooke, Annette resources. Please do not ask us to sign up to something Bacon, Mr. Richard Browne, Mr. Jeremy different now, instead of the things that we are doing Baldry, Tony Browning, Angela already. Barker, Gregory Bruce, rh Malcolm Baron, Mr. John Burns, Mr. Simon Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend Barrett, John Burstow, Mr. Paul give way? Beith, rh Sir Alan Burt, Alistair Mr. Kidney: I have time for one intervention. Bellingham, Mr. Henry Burt, Lorely Benyon, Mr. Richard Butterfill, Sir John Nia Griffith: Does my hon. Friend agree that, while Beresford, Sir Paul Cable, Dr. Vincent the Liberal Democrat motion makes no mention of Binley, Mr. Brian Campbell, Mr. Gregory costings, the Government amendment confirms a Blunt, Mr. Crispin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies commitment to spending up to £20 million to help Bone, Mr. Peter Carmichael, Mr. Alistair 1023 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1024

Cash, Mr. William Huhne, Chris Smith, Chloe Viggers, Sir Peter Challen, Colin Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Smith, Sir Robert Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Clappison, Mr. James Hunter, Mark Soames, Mr. Nicholas Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Clark, Greg Hurd, Mr. Nick Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Waterson, Mr. Nigel Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spicer, Sir Michael Watkinson, Angela Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Jones, Mr. David Spring, Mr. Richard Webb, Steve Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Jones, Lynne Stanley, rh Sir John Weir, Mr. Mike Corbyn, Jeremy Kawczynski, Daniel Steen, Mr. Anthony Whittingdale, Mr. Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Keetch, Mr. Paul Stuart, Mr. Graham John Crabb, Mr. Stephen Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Stunell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Davies, Mr. Dai Key, Robert Swayne, Mr. Desmond Williams, Hywel Davies, David T.C. Kirkbride, Miss Julie Swinson, Jo Williams, Mark (Monmouth) Kramer, Susan Swire, Mr. Hugo Williams, Mr. Roger Davis, rh David Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Syms, Mr. Robert Williams, Stephen Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lamb, Norman Tapsell, Sir Peter Willis, Mr. Phil Donaldson, rh Mr. Lancaster, Mr. Mark Taylor, David Willott, Jenny Jeffrey M. Laws, Mr. David Taylor, Mr. Ian Wilson, Mr. Rob Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Leigh, Mr. Edward Taylor, Matthew Winterton, Ann Dorries, Nadine Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Taylor, Dr. Richard Winterton, Sir Nicholas Drew, Mr. David Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Teather, Sarah Wishart, Pete Duddridge, James Lidington, Mr. David Thurso, John Wright, Jeremy Dunne, Mr. Philip Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Timpson, Mr. Edward Young, rh Sir George Durkan, Mark Luff, Peter Tredinnick, David Younger-Ross, Richard Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Truswell, Mr. Paul Evans, Mr. Nigel MacNeil, Mr. Angus Turner, Mr. Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Evennett, Mr. David Main, Anne Vaizey, Mr. Edward Dan Rogerson and Fabricant, Michael Malins, Mr. Humfrey Vara, Mr. Shailesh John Hemming Fallon, Mr. Michael Mason, John Farron, Tim May, rh Mrs. Theresa NOES Featherstone, Lynne McDonnell, John Field, Mr. Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Abbott, Ms Diane Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Foster, Mr. Don McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Ainger, Nick Cairns, David Francois, Mr. Mark Mercer, Patrick Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Campbell, Mr. Alan Fraser, Christopher Milton, Anne Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Garnier, Mr. Edward Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Allen, Mr. Graham Caton, Mr. Martin Gauke, Mr. David Moore, Mr. Michael Anderson, Mr. David Cawsey, Mr. Ian George, Andrew Moss, Mr. Malcolm Armstrong, rh Hilary Chapman, Ben Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mulholland, Greg Atkins, Charlotte Chaytor, Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick Mundell, David Austin, Mr. Ian Clapham, Mr. Michael Gidley, Sandra Murrison, Dr. Andrew Bailey, Mr. Adrian Clark, Paul Goldsworthy, Julia Neill, Robert Baird, Vera Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Goodman, Mr. Paul Newmark, Mr. Brooks Balls, rh Ed Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Goodwill, Mr. Robert Oaten, Mr. Mark Banks, Gordon Clelland, Mr. David Gove, Michael Öpik, Lembit Barlow, Ms Celia Clwyd, rh Ann Gray, Mr. James Ottaway, Richard Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Coaker, Mr. Vernon Greening, Justine Paice, Mr. James Battle, rh John Coffey, Ann Gummer, rh Mr. John Palmer, Dr. Nick Bayley, Hugh Cohen, Harry Hands, Mr. Greg Paterson, Mr. Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Connarty, Michael Harper, Mr. Mark Pelling, Mr. Andrew Begg, Miss Anne Cooper, Rosie Harris, Dr. Evan Penning, Mike Bell, Sir Stuart Cooper, rh Yvette Harvey, Nick Penrose, John Benn, rh Hilary Cousins, Jim Hayes, Mr. John Price, Adam Benton, Mr. Joe Crausby, Mr. David Heald, Mr. Oliver Pugh, Dr. John Berry, Roger Cruddas, Jon Heath, Mr. David Randall, Mr. John Betts, Mr. Clive Cryer, Mrs. Ann Heathcoat-Amory, rh Redwood, rh Mr. John Blackman, Liz Cummings, John Mr. David Reid, Mr. Alan Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hendry, Charles Rennie, Willie Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Tony Herbert, Nick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Blizzard, Mr. Bob Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Hoban, Mr. Mark Robertson, Angus Blunkett, rh Mr. David Davidson, Mr. Ian Hoey, Kate Robertson, Hugh Borrow, Mr. David S. Dean, Mrs. Janet Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robertson, Mr. Laurence Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Denham, rh Mr. John Holloway, Mr. Adam Robinson, Mrs. Iris Brennan, Kevin Dobbin, Jim Holmes, Paul Rowen, Paul Brown, Lyn Dobson, rh Frank Hopkins, Kelvin Ruffley, Mr. David Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Horam, Mr. John Russell, Bob Browne, rh Des Doran, Mr. Frank Horwood, Martin Sanders, Mr. Adrian Bryant, Chris Eagle, Angela Hosie, Stewart Scott, Mr. Lee Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria Howard, rh Mr. Michael Selous, Andrew Burden, Richard Efford, Clive Howarth, David Shapps, Grant Burgon, Colin Engel, Natascha Howarth, Mr. Gerald Simmonds, Mark Burnham, rh Andy Ennis, Jeff Howell, John Simpson, Alan Butler, Ms Dawn Etherington, Bill Hughes, Simon Simpson, Mr. Keith Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Farrelly, Paul 1025 Climate Change (Political Response)21 OCTOBER 2009 Climate Change (Political Response) 1026

Field, rh Mr. Frank Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Andy Tami, Mark Fisher, Mark Kumar, Dr. Ashok Reed, Mr. Jamie Taylor, Ms Dari Fitzpatrick, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Riordan, Mrs. Linda Thomas, Mr. Gareth Flello, Mr. Robert Lammy, rh Mr. David Robertson, John Thornberry, Emily Flint, rh Caroline Laxton, Mr. Bob Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Flynn, Paul Lazarowicz, Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Todd, Mr. Mark Follett, Barbara Lepper, David Roy, Mr. Frank Touhig, rh Mr. Don Foster, Mr. Michael Levitt, Tom Roy, Lindsay Trickett, Jon (Worcester) Lewis, Mr. Ivan Ruane, Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond Foster, Michael Jabez Linton, Martin Ruddock, Joan Turner, Mr. Neil (Hastings and Rye) Lloyd, Tony Russell, Christine Twigg, Derek Francis, Dr. Hywel Love, Mr. Andrew Ryan, rh Joan Ussher, Kitty Gapes, Mike Lucas, Ian Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Vaz, rh Keith Gardiner, Barry Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan George, rh Mr. Bruce MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Sharma, Mr. Virendra Waltho, Lynda Gilroy, Linda Mactaggart, Fiona Shaw, Jonathan Ward, Claire Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Sheerman, Mr. Barry Goggins, rh Paul Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheridan, Jim Watson, Mr. Tom Goodman, Helen Mallaber, Judy Simon, Mr. Siôn Watts, Mr. Dave Griffith, Nia Mann, John Singh, Mr. Marsha Whitehead, Dr. Alan Griffiths, Nigel Marris, Rob Skinner, Mr. Dennis Wicks, rh Malcolm Grogan, Mr. John Marsden, Mr. Gordon Slaughter, Mr. Andy Williams, rh Mr. Alan Gwynne, Andrew McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hall, Mr. Mike McCabe, Steve Smith, Ms Angela C. Wilson, Phil Hall, Patrick McCafferty, Chris (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Wilson, Sammy Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Winnick, Mr. David Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Geraldine Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hanson, rh Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, rh Jacqui Wood, Mike Harman, rh Ms Harriet McDonagh, Siobhain Snelgrove, Anne Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Harris, Mr. Tom McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Soulsby, Sir Peter Woolas, Mr. Phil Havard, Mr. Dai McFall, rh John Southworth, Helen Wright, Mr. Anthony Healey, rh John McGovern, Mr. Jim Spellar, rh Mr. John Wright, David Henderson, Mr. Doug McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wright, Mr. Iain Hendrick, Mr. Mark McIsaac, Shona Stewart, Ian Wright, Dr. Tony Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McKechin, Ann Stoate, Dr. Howard Wyatt, Derek Heppell, Mr. John McKenna, Rosemary Straw, rh Mr. Jack Hesford, Stephen McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stringer, Graham Tellers for the Noes: Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Helen Jones and Heyes, David Meale, Mr. Alan Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Mary Creagh Hill, rh Keith Merron, Gillian Hillier, Meg Michael, rh Alun Question accordingly negatived. Hodge, rh Margaret Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miliband, rh Edward Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Hood, Mr. Jim Miller, Andrew That the proposed words be there added. Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Moffatt, Laura Howarth, rh Mr. George Mole, Chris Question agreed to. Howells, rh Dr. Kim Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Morden, Jessica The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as Humble, Mrs. Joan Morgan, Julie amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Hutton, rh Mr. John Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Iddon, Dr. Brian Mudie, Mr. George Resolved, Illsley, Mr. Eric Mullin, Mr. Chris That this House welcomes the 10:10 campaign as a motivator Irranca-Davies, Huw Munn, Meg of public action to cut carbon dioxide emissions through individual James, Mrs. Siân C. Murphy, Mr. Denis and collective behaviour change; recognises the value of such Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Paul campaigns to build public support for action by governments to Johnson, rh Alan Naysmith, Dr. Doug agree an ambitious, effective and fair deal at Copenhagen; further Johnson, Ms Diana R. Norris, Dan recognises the significant effort made by individuals and organisations Jones, Mr. Kevan O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike to cut their emissions through the 10:10 campaign; supports the Jones, Mr. Martyn O’Hara, Mr. Edward Climate Change Act introduced by this Government, the first Jowell, rh Tessa Olner, Mr. Bill such legislation in the world, and the system of carbon budgets Joyce, Mr. Eric Osborne, Sandra that enables Britain to set itself on a low carbon pathway; notes Kaufman, rh Sir Owen, Albert that carbon budgets ensure active policies by Whitehall departments Gerald Pearson, Ian and the public sector that deliver long-term sustained emissions Keeble, Ms Sally Plaskitt, Mr. James reductions not just in 2010 but through to 2022 and beyond; Keeley, Barbara Pope, Mr. Greg further supports the efforts of local councils to move towards local carbon budgets by signing up to the 10:10 campaign; further Keen, Alan Pound, Stephen welcomes the allocation of up to £20 million for central Government Keen, Ann Prentice, Bridget departments to enable them to reduce further and faster carbon Kelly, rh Ruth Prescott, rh Mr. John dioxide emissions from their operations, estate and transport; and Kemp, Mr. Fraser Primarolo, rh Dawn further welcomes the cross-cutting Public Value Programme review Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prosser, Gwyn of the low carbon potential of the public sector, which will focus Kidney, Mr. David Purchase, Mr. Ken on how the sector can achieve transformational financial savings Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick through value-for-money carbon reductions. 1027 21 OCTOBER 2009 Business without Debate 1028

Business without Debate BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Ordered, That, at the sitting on Tuesday 27 October, paragraph (2) of BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the Motion in the name of Mr Peter Robinson as if the day were Order No. 15), an Opposition Day; proceedings on the Motion may continue for three hours or until Ten o’clock, whichever is the earlier, and shall That, at this day’s sitting, the Second Reading of the Perpetuities then lapse if not previously disposed of; and Standing Order and Accumulations Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Mr. Blizzard.) opposed, until any hour.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Question agreed to. COMMITTEES

PERPETUITIES AND ACCUMULATIONS BILL REFORM OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS [LORDS] Ordered, That Sir George Youngbe discharged from the Select Committee Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing on Reform of the House of Commons and Mr Peter Atkinson be Orders Nos. 59(3) and 90(5)), That the Bill be now added.—(Mr. Blizzard.) read a Second Time. Question agreed to. WEST MIDLANDS Motion made, Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). That Dr Richard Taylor be a member of the West Midlands Regional Select Committee.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Hon. Members: Object. DELEGATED LEGISLATION YORKSHIRE AND THE HUMBER Mr. Deputy Speaker: With the leave of the House, we Motion made, shall take motions 4 to 8 together. That Mary Creagh be discharged from the Yorkshire and the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Humber Regional Select Committee and Mr Austin Mitchell be Order No. 118(6)), added.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Hon. Members: Object. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT That the draft Caribbean Development Bank (Seventh SOUTH WEST Replenishment of the Unified Special Development Fund) Order Motion made, 2009, which was laid before this House on 17 June, be approved. That Linda Gilroy be discharged from the South West Regional Select Committee and Roger Berry be added.—(Mr. Blizzard.) STATISTICS BOARD Hon. Members: Object. That the draft Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 (Disclosure of Higher Education Student Information) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 17 June, be approved. PETITION Gaza TRADE UNION AND LABOUR RELATIONS 7.15 pm That the draft ACAS Code of Practice: Time Off for Trade Union Duties and Activities, which was laid before this House on David Lepper (Brighton, Pavilion) (Lab/Co-op): I 24 June, be approved. present a petition—[Interruption.] Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. An important petition is CRIMINAL LAW being presented. If hon. Members are leaving, will they That the draft Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (YouthConditional please do so quickly and quietly? Cautions: Code of Practice) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 8 July, be approved. David Lepper: I present a petition on behalf of residents That the draft Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Conditional Cautions: of Brighton and others. It is signed by Brenda Brown Code of Practice) Order 2009, which was laid before this House and 141 other residents of the Brighton area. on 8 July, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) The petition states: Question agreed to. The Petition of residents of Brighton and others, Declares that the Government should fulfil its responsibilities Mr. Deputy Speaker: Again, with the leave of the as a high contracting party to the 4th Geneva Convention. House, we shall put motions 9 to 11 together. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Ordered, urges the Government to immediately take steps to institute a war crimes investigation in the UK into Israeli attacks on the Gaza That the Family Proceedings Fees (Amendment) Order 2009 Strip between 27 December and 18 January 2009 and for the UK (S.I., 2009, No. 1499), dated 10 June 2009, be referred to a prosecuting authorities to search out and prosecute (or extradite Delegated Legislation Committee. for trial elsewhere) all suspected war criminals identified by the That the Civil Proceedings Fees (Amendment) Order 2009 investigation; and urges the Government to seek a binding resolution (S.I., 2009, No. 1498), dated 10 June 2009, be referred to a at the UN Security Council to establish an international commission Delegated Legislation Committee. of inquiry into the Gaza attacks and the referral of potential That the Magistrates’ Courts Fees (Amendment) Order 2009 cases to the International Criminal Court. (S.I., 2009, No. 1496), dated 10 June 2009, be referred to a And the Petitioners remain, etc. Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Mr. Blizzard.) [P000404] 1029 21 OCTOBER 2009 War Memorials 1030

War Memorials One of the memorials that I visited during my exploration of the constituency was in a very small village in the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Lincolnshire wolds called Wold Newton. The names on do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) the memorial cross had faded and almost vanished, but I took a photograph and put it on the computer. Having 7.17 pm used all sorts of effects, I eventually managed to transcribe Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I thank Mr. Speaker the names of four who died in the first world war and for allowing me to address the House on the subject of one who died in the Boer war, but I think that by now, the nation’s war memorials on the day after the launch because of increased weathering, those names have of the annual poppy appeal. probably faded completely. My interest in war memorials began some time ago. That was when I really began to think about the My late father served 25 years in the armed forces, and problem of memorials that have been weathered and one of his postings was to NATO headquarters in memorials that are neglected. We must face the fact that Belgium. My father organised family outings to visit the although most memorials are well loved, not all of them war memorials in that part of Belgium and northern are. I want to make people aware that those memorials France to seek out names of members of my family exist. Although the families who raised money for them who had died in the first world war. By a quirk of fate, I obviously wanted the names to be there for ever more, attended a Canadian school at NATO headquarters in the names have faded. Belgium. The school took us on outings to Vimy ridge, That is why I feel so passionately that we must restore where many Canadians lost their lives in the first world the war memorials in this country. It is not just about war. I was a teenager at the time, and seeing those memorials that have faded or have been neglected; there cemeteries left a lasting impression on me—the symmetry is also the issue of development. Some memorials are of the white headstones, the stillness and quiet. But threatened by demolition and road-building schemes, what stuck in my mind was the age of so many of the for instance. I know that there are memorials in many men—young boys really—who died when just a few factories, workplaces and schools. years older than me. When the family returned to Britain, I started to Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I am notice the village war memorials, big war memorials in delighted that the hon. Lady has initiated this debate. towns, rolls of honour in churches, memorial plaques She has mentioned schools. The issue of war memorials and many other forms of remembrance, not just from in schools has a particular resonance at a time when the the first world war but from other conflicts. I got a sense country is involved in conflict. I have been lobbied by that without graves at which to mourn, there had been a Mr. Michael Lyons of the Royal British Legion in New great upwelling of feeling in this country at the end of Addington, in Croydon, about the efforts being made to the first world war. Public subscriptions enabled memorials preserve school memorials when demolition is planned. to be erected so that people had somewhere to go and A great deal of activity has taken place in relation to grieve, and to remember the people whom they had lost Building Schools for the Future. A very good ceremony in the Great War. That was not just for families; it was took place in Applegarth school in New Addington last for communities. It was, in fact, for society. It was to week, when “dead men’s pennies” from the first world ensure that none of us would ever forget those who had war were put in a permanent exhibition. That will lost their lives in that conflict—as, indeed, none of us enable young people to have a good sense of remembrance should ever forget those who are currently fighting for of those who served our country so well. our country. Shona McIsaac: I am glad that I accepted the hon. Every Remembrance day when, attending the main Gentleman’s intervention, in which he illustrated beautifully ceremony, I lay a wreath in Cleethorpes outside St. Peter’s the way in which memorials are under threat. They are church, I remember the cemeteries in France and Belgium. not all in listed buildings; in fact, three memorials in my I remember the lives cut short. I think of all who are local party office have been saved—if we had not done serving now, and of all who have lost their lives in more that, I dread to think where they might have gone. recent conflicts in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Iraq Luckily, some others have gone into local archives, for and, now, Afghanistan. example. People just think of the main, free-standing I remember that when I had just been elected—it was memorials, and often forget that in many public one of those bitterly cold November days—standing buildings—schools, hospitals, fire stations and post with all the civil dignitaries, ready to lay my wreath, and offices—there were memorials to many other people thinking “This is not the only memorial in the constituency; who signed up, perhaps in the pals’ battalions, in the there are many, many others. There are small village first world war. They are very telling memorials, and we memorials, and there are memorials in other churches.” must not let them be destroyed or neglected. I made a little promise to myself that I would do my Knowing that I had secured this debate—and also best to visit each and every memorial in my constituency. because we are approaching the launch of the annual That has led me, over the past decade, to begin to record poppy appeal—on Friday I tabled early-day motion the names of the people commemorated on those 2070. Many Members have already signed it, and I want memorials, and also to explore a little about their family to read it out as it summarises my emotions about this backgrounds and the lives that they led. The period that issue: I am discussing was one of great social change in Britain, certainly in the area that I represent. Because of “That this House praises the British Legion’s Roll of Honour, English Heritage, Historic Scotland, the War Memorials Trust, the growth in the fishing industry, it was a time when the Imperial War Museum and the Commonwealth War Graves thousands of people flocked to Grimsby and Cleethorpes Commission for their work dedicated to commemorating those to earn money. The whole social history is absolutely who have died as a result of conflict and to preserving war fascinating. memorials in the UK and abroad; calls upon the Government to 1031 War Memorials21 OCTOBER 2009 War Memorials 1032

[Shona McIsaac] because of things such as the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website, where one can input the examine ways of assisting communities to preserve and restore names of family members and find out about people. the UK’s war memorials and rolls of honour in advance of the Intriguingly, as we approach the 100th anniversary of 100th anniversary of the outbreak of the First World War in world war one an increasing number of people are August 1914; and further calls on the Government to establish a becoming interested in this issue. That is why I am national code of practice to protect war memorials from destruction, and to have a national day of commemoration on the calling for a national day of commemoration similar to 100th anniversary of the outbreak of the First World War.” what the French do—they have what they call their days All the organisations I mention, such as the War of “patronomie”, when public buildings are opened up. Memorials Trust, do tremendous work. There is now a It would be wonderful to see churches, schools and national inventory of war memorials, but it has only council buildings in this country—wherever the more two full-time members of staff, although it has many hidden memorials can be found—opened up. We could volunteers. We have five years before there will be a lot restore the memorials and open the doors, so that of services of remembrance not only here, but throughout people can see the memorials and pay their respects. Europe and America, as well as in Australia and New That would help tourism too, because people visit places Zealand because of the Anzac forces. We must do our to see memorials. It would be a real boost to this bit. We must ensure that all our memorials are brought country’s economy if we could co-ordinate that. up to scratch in advance of that 100th anniversary. Five I shall end my speech with a little local story. I know years seems a long way off, but I know that if we do not that sport is the normal brief of my hon. Friend the start doing something now, and if there is not a co-ordinated Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Sutcliffe), who is on approach, some of the neglected memorials will remain the Front Bench for this debate, so I shall briefly discuss neglected. the footballers who enlisted in the 17th Battalion, the Middlesex Regiment in the first world war. One of Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): I am grateful those to enlist was the Grimsby Town football club to my hon. Friend for the tone she has struck in this captain, Sid Wheelhouse. In France, the various battalions timely and relevant debate. May I say to her, however, played against each other to try to win the “British that I cannot imagine that any free-standing war memorial Expeditionary Force Football Association Cup”. Being or cenotaph would be subsumed in building works, as I professional footballers, the 17th Battalion had the think most local authorities would make absolutely sure edge and sailed though to the final, which was set for that that did not happen? She rightly and percipiently 11 April 1915. The 17th Battalion met the 34th Brigade put her finger on another problem, which concerns of the Royal Field Artillery and were decisive winners, memorials other than the free-standing ones. May I by a score of 11-0. Tommy Lonsdale, Sid Wheelhouse urge her to do something that I am sure she has already and Dave Kenny from Grimsby Town were in the done, which is to encourage every Member of this winning team, but by September the following year Sid House to contact the Royal British Legion, which is the Wheelhouse had become another casualty of the war. custodian of the fallen, if ever there is any question of He was a well respected player of his day—almost its any plaque or memorial in any way being threatened? If David Beckham. that were the case, I would expect the Royal British Legion to contact its local Member, and I think well St. Aidan’s church is across the road from Blundell enough of this House to believe that no Member would Park, where Grimsby Town play and where I believe my turn aside a request from the Royal British Legion to hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Stephen honour our fallen. Pound) has been. Shona McIsaac: My hon. Friend makes an important point, and he is right. The Royal British Legion has Stephen Pound: Sadly, many times. what it calls its roll of honour, and it has been asking volunteers to record the names on memorials throughout Shona McIsaac: A memorial in the form of a wooden the country. wall plaque in the Lady chapel in that church records The problem, however, is knowing where the memorials the names of the many, many men who lived in north are. When I first started doing this, I was thinking about Cleethorpes—it was called New Cleethorpes at the time— cemetery gates, rolls of honour in churches, memorial who lost their lives in the first world war. Many of them plaques and so on, but I have discovered many more were trawlermen—hundreds of men from that community that I did not know existed. Although I knew this one died when trawlers were hit; the number is phenomenal. existed, for example, I have asked many residents in my One of the names on that memorial is S. Wheelhouse. area whether they have noticed the first world war He lived across the road from the ground and St. Aidan’s memorial in the main post office in Grimsby, and they was his local church. That is one of the memorials tell me that they have not. That memorial was saved where the names are fading away—some of them are from a building that was demolished, but the one for the barely legible now. fire service is locked away in an archive. The issue is all It is those sorts of memorials that I want to see about knowing whether memorials exist. If we do not restored. They sometimes do not fit the criteria to get know that memorials are in boarded-up buildings, grants, because they are not necessarily in listed buildings particularly factories and redundant schools, that is a or in conservation areas. This Remembrance Sunday, problem. A national inventory is so vital, because we we will all be reading our prayers and we will remember have to get those things on record. Then we can contact these people. If we can bring all our memorials up to the Legion to ensure that the memorials are protected. scratch by getting them all restored in advance of the Although the last Tommy has passed away, the number 100th anniversary of the first world war, that would be of people attending remembrance parades has increased a fantastic tribute not only to those people but for the in recent years—certainly in the past decade. That is future. 1033 War Memorials21 OCTOBER 2009 War Memorials 1034

I would hate it if, at some point in the future, the I pay tribute to the two hon. Members who intervened names that are now being recorded on war memorials— on my hon. Friend—the hon. Member for Croydon, Central those of people who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan—were (Mr. Pelling) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, to have faded away. That is what is happening to these North (Stephen Pound)—for their contributions and first world war names, and I would not want it to for ensuring that we keep this important issue in our minds, happen to our forces who are currently serving in especially at this time. The aim of the inventory is eventually Afghanistan, either. We owe that to all our forces and to to have the story of each memorial in the country—its all the people who have fought for our country. building, its unveiling and its significance to community life—within its archive. The inventory is a work in 7.35 pm progress, and anyone who keeps records of memorials could help by sharing any information that they have. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe): I thank my hon. As time goes on and the information becomes more Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) complete, perhaps the inventory can consider whether for securing the slot for this debate on an important there is a role it could usefully fulfil in showing us where subject. I am deeply grateful for the way in which she protection might be lacking. Although the inventory is has presented the issue. It is clear from her speech how staffed by the Imperial War museum, I and those who emotionally involved she has become in this issue and in work on are very grateful for the work of large numbers ensuring, through her useful website, that her constituents of volunteer recorders and photographers. The inventory learn about the men and women whose names are on would be very grateful for any further offers of help the war memorials in their local area. She demonstrates with administration, fieldwork or research in addition the diversity of war memorials: from plaque to obelisks to the support of the Royal British Legion. to more elaborate structures. I believe that her web Let me move on to the issue of protection. We have address is www.shonamcisaac.com and I am sure that heard calls for enhanced protection for war memorials. many people will want to have a look at the site. Protection of war memorials is based on their status as War memorials are of course a very special part of listed buildings, parts of listed buildings and scheduled our environment; they help us to remember and to ancient monuments, or on their situation in conservation celebrate the lives and contributions of those men and areas, and there are already a range of powers at the women who gave so much to protect the freedoms of disposal of Government, its agencies, and local authorities, our country. They remain a vital and sadly still necessary to ensure that such memorials are well cared for. Again, part of modern life as young men and women continue I am aware that I have not mentioned some of the to do their duties serving at home and in foreign parts. I possibilities, and I undertake to help my hon. Friend to was particularly struck by my hon. Friend’s reference to ensure that the ones that she mentioned are included. the 100th anniversary of the first world war, and I agree Any works to memorials that are listed, scheduled or that we need to ensure that preparations are in place to in a conservation area will require the appropriate consents honour that memorial in five years’ time. I shall take from the local authority or the Secretary of State, to note of her point so that we can ensure that those ensure that they are in the best interests of the preservation preparations are in place. of the memorial and its setting. Where a memorial is situated in a listed building, consents will be required Memorials are also important to the communities in from the local authority for any changes or for removal. which they are situated and I know that, up and down Where proper steps are not being taken for the preservation the country, many people voluntarily ensure that memorials of a listed memorial, a local authority has the power to continue to be a fitting tribute by undertaking cleaning undertake any repairs considered necessary, and it can then and maintenance. I want to offer the Government’s seek repayment from the owners for the cost of those sincere thanks to those who volunteer in this way. repairs. The subject of the debate is the protection, conservation Ultimately, a local authority could compulsorily purchase and restoration of war memorials and I believe that the a listed memorial to ensure its proper care and maintenance, Government have a good record in each of these areas. I and English Heritage is also able to exercise those shall deal with each of them in turn. A useful first step powers in London. The Secretary of State also has would be to ensure that we know about the nation’s reserve powers in this area but, thankfully, they are stock of war memorials. I note of course the contents of seldom needed or used. In respect of any memorial, my hon. Friend’s early-day motion 1829, which calls for listed or not, the War Memorials (Local Authorities’ a national record of—and enhanced protection from Powers) Act 1923 allows local authorities to carry out developers—for war memorials. I have noted also the works, whether or not the memorial is in their ownership. content of early-day motion 2070, and I echo her support for the work of the groups that she mentioned. We consider that war memorials situated inside a listed church building of a major denomination—and On the subject of a national register, I am pleased to there are many memorials within Church of England report that we already have one in operation. The churches—are best cared for by the relevant denomination. United Kingdom national inventory of war memorials The biggest denominations have their own stringent systems started in 1989 and was initially a joint project between of care under the ecclesiastical exemption, and they the Imperial War museum and the Royal Commission provide excellent care for listed churches and their contents. on the Historic Monuments of England, which is now part of English Heritage. The inventory continues to be Shona McIsaac: The Minister has mentioned Church supported by the Imperial War museum, which is in of England churches, but increasingly former Methodist turn supported by my Department. I take the point chapels are being sold for residential purposes. The about the two members of staff and we will have a look same is true or redundant Church of England buildings. at what can be done to ensure that, in addition to the What is the situation when a church becomes redundant? volunteers, we can ensure that we are adequately resourced. Who has responsibility for the memorials in it? 1035 War Memorials21 OCTOBER 2009 War Memorials 1036

Mr. Sutcliffe: My hon. Friend raises a fair point, and ownership, in the care of a charitable trust and in joint I undertake to write to her about how we can deal with ownership. English Heritage is in discussions over all the situation that she describes. We need volunteers to three. It is carrying out repairs in one case, in discussion help us identify where memorials are located, but we with the local authority, and offering grants for repair also need to determine what we can do, in addition to in the other two cases. All in all, it is not a bad picture the powers that we have already, when buildings change considering that there are approximately 1,200 listed use. war memorials. I realise that many war memorials might not be The help being offered by English Heritage in these classed as, or situated in, listed buildings but, if a cases brings me to the range of assistance that is on memorial represents a building of historic or architectural offer to those conserving and restoring memorials, by significance, an application can be made to English way of funding and guidance in the technical matters of Heritage to have it considered for listing. Where neither restoration and maintenance. English Heritage and a memorial nor the building in which it is situated merit the Wolfson Foundation, in association with the War listed-building status, the Government’s draft planning Memorials Trust, provide grants for the repair and policy statement for the historic environment, currently conservation of freestanding war memorials in England. out for consultation, encourages local authorities and These grants enable those who are responsible for the owners to agree between them the significance of a upkeep of war memorials to carry out repair projects to building or its parts. In that way, and in advance of any a high standard. To date, over £600,000 has been offered application for planning consent, they can reach an to 250 projects. The War Memorials Trust has its own understanding about what can or cannot be changed. separate grant scheme. I note that the London boroughs of Harrow, Bromley The Department for Culture, Media and Sport operates and Bexley keep registers of the war memorials situated the memorials grant scheme, which makes grants to in their areas in order to inform relevant planning registered charities and faith groups equivalent to the decisions, and that two more boroughs are planning VAT incurred in making repairs to, or establishing, similar lists. That is certainly an approach to be encouraged, public memorial structures, including war memorials. and I suggest that authorities should work with the To date, the scheme has given out more than £1.5 million national inventory wherever possible. Beyond statutory UK-wide. A significant proportion of this has helped to recognition and processes, however, and whether or not establish the armed forces memorial at the National memorials are historically significant, there will always Memorial Arboretum, but many other grants have been also be a role for local communities in making sure that made for the repair of war memorials across the UK. memorials are respected for what they are and what My hon. Friend’s website mentions some memorials in they signify. her constituency where the names, as she said, have As the hon. Member for Croydon, Central said, there become illegible. Where such memorials are in the care is also a role for educators in making sure that people of charities or Church groups, a grant under this scheme respect the legacies of those who gave their lives, and could help with restoration. the tributes made to them. Like my hon. Friend the The sister scheme to the memorials grant scheme, the Member for Cleethorpes, I of course deplore any acts of listed places of worship grant scheme, will also make vandalism that damage our memorials. I should also grants equivalent to the VAT costs of making repairs to like to add my thanks to the Royal British Legion, memorials that form part of the fabric of a listed English Heritage, the War Memorials Trust, the Imperial church building. In addition, the Heritage Lottery Fund, War museum and the National Memorial Arboretum, distributing funding from the lottery good causes especially for their work with educators and children in contribution, has made 36 grants, totalling £17,369,308 making sure that memorials are understood and kept where projects have involved the conservation or repair for future generations. of war memorials or have sought to increase awareness English Heritage is helping us to recognise where of their significance and meaning. English Heritage memorials might be at risk, and where intervention cares for six of the capital’s most important memorials, might be needed. Last year, it launched its heritage-at-risk including the Cenotaph. Altogether, there is a great deal register, which sets out the buildings listed at the highest of financial help out there for those who need it when grades, and the scheduled ancient monuments, that are caring for memorials. considered either to be at risk through neglect and I have noted my hon. Friend’s comments about how decay or vulnerable to becoming so. I am pleased to we could go further. It was right and proper that she report that, out of the more than 5,000 entries on the raised the issue. We are working to maintain our memorials, register, the number of purpose-built memorials is only and I look forward to working with her and other just in double figures, and that just four are war memorials. colleagues across the House to make sure that we protect Although I do not consider it appropriate this evening the memorials to those who gave their lives for this to name those memorials considered to be at risk, country. suffice it to say that English Heritage has the matter in Question put and agreed to. hand on all of them. One memorial is in local authority ownership, and English Heritage is preparing to work with the authority and a local group to ensure its 7.47 pm preservation. The others are, respectively, in private House adjourned. 245WH 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 246WH Regulation) insisted on licensing people who sold alcohol—I can Westminster Hall think of many other licenses as well—I could see no reason why we should not license people who rented property to others to make them responsible for the way Wednesday 21 October 2009 in which they did that. Interestingly, in the past 12 months, Rugg and Rhodes [MR.CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] have proposed a similar solution to the problem of private landlords in their report “The private rented Private Landlords (Local Regulation) sector: its contribution and potential”. They have proposed light-touch regulation that encompasses the whole private Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting rented sector, and having experienced selective licensing be now adjourned.—(Mr. Ian Austin.) schemes, the problems associated with them and the resources required to maintain them—I will come to 9.30 am those later—I think that improving the system introduced Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): Private in the Housing Act 2004 is probably a better way landlords have been a feature of big cities for as long as forward than regulating the whole private housing sector. big cities have existed in this country and other countries. I was bound to say at some stage in my contribution People such as Peter Rachman are part of the vocabulary that although there are bad private landlords, there are, and folk memory of urban working-class communities. of course, also good ones, and I want to focus on Virtually all working-class people from the inner cities improving the regulation of private landlords to deal have tales to tell of bad landlords and of what has with the problems that have been created. happened to their families. However, what happened in the mid-1990s in Manchester and other northern cities—it Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): There are good landlords was primarily northern cities—was a particularly malevolent in Castle Point, but the problems in the private sector variation on the theme of bad landlords exploiting there are quite different. Landlords are reluctant to take poorer communities. on people on housing benefit as tenants, and Julie Rugg found that there were problems in that segment of the During the recession of the early and mid-1990s, the housing market. The issue of housing benefit and tenants price of houses dropped, and that was particularly true is very complex and will need careful handling. Will the for terraced houses in small towns and larger cities. hon. Gentleman ask the Minister to set out what the Many drug dealers then used their excess disposable Government will do to resolve the problems that he has income to invest—if that is the right word—in terraced eloquently annunciated and the problem of private housing. Many of them had a business plan, which landlords who refuse housing benefit tenants, as in went something like this. They would buy one property Castle Point? in a row of terraced houses in what had previously been a decent and often long-established neighbourhood. Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman makes an They would then put in friends or tenants of a particularly interesting point. When I started trying to persuade the rowdy and antisocial nature. Sometimes, those tenants Government to regulate private landlords, although I would form shebeens, although they were often just did not use quite those words, the then Housing Minister deliberately and knowingly antisocial, and that drove wrote to me to say that the Government were not other people out of those streets. As the value of houses prepared to regulate private housing, because that would dropped in the recession, more poor tenants came into damage the private rented sector in London and the the area. Eventually, these landlords ended up owning south-east and lead to homelessness. I found that answer most of the street, and their income would be paid out unsatisfactory. Although I would not deny that those of the benefits system. They did not look after the are the facts—and the hon. Gentleman makes the point houses or the area—there were lots of complaints to about his constituency—I did not see why the Government local councillors and MPs—so there was a real possibility should not deal with the problems of many northern that the public purse would again have to pay for those cities and smaller ex-industrial towns because the south-east houses when compulsory purchases came along. had a different economy and different problems. When I was first elected to the House in 1997, this I carried on trying to persuade the Government. blight was affecting north Manchester—my hon. Friend When Lord Falconer of Thoroton became the Housing the Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) is Minister, I showed him around some particularly difficult also here, and he will know that the same was true in areas in my constituency. That led to the provisions in east Manchester. At the time, I believed that we required the 2004 Act. Interestingly, it took seven years, from the regulation of private landlords, but before I get on when the Labour Government were first asked for to selective licensing and regulation, let me make an it—although the problem had existed since the early aside. To understand the problems of urban regeneration 1990s—to get legislation saying that someone should be and of supporting private housing, council housing and a fit and proper person to be a private landlord, and to registered social landlords, we have to understand some give tenants in the relevant areas certain rights. It was of the drivers that have led people to leave long-established another two years before, in April 2006, certain provisions areas. If the Government do not understand such crucial came into force and could be used for selective licensing. factors, they could waste money trying to regenerate areas. In fact, a further two years later, in late 2008, because of Having been elected, I was keen to pursue proposals complications and difficulties that I shall come to, only to register every private landlord. Private landlords had seven authorities in the United Kingdom had taken up the ability to make people’s lives absolutely miserable the scheme. I do not believe that was because the and to destroy whole neighbourhoods, and the evidence schemes are bad. It is because of the mechanisms to showed that they had done that in certain areas. If we implement the scheme. 247WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 248WH Regulation) Regulation) [Graham Stringer] Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, and the burden of most of what I am saying will The Housing Act 2004 was welcomed across the be the time that the process takes: setting up and board, because it was sensitively and well thought out. implementing selective licensing schemes, finding private The one group of people to oppose it was the Residential landlords—whether they are good, bad or indifferent— Landlords Association, which said that getting them registered and monitoring the schemes. It “selective licensing officially identifies an area where there is low is a complicated proposal. demand for property, usually with problem families and a history There are 10,708 properties in the area in my constituency of anti-social behaviour, where nobody wants to live. that has a selective licensing scheme, the Harpurhey and And few areas will recover from that level of official negativity Lightbowne area, and it is estimated that 16 per cent. of from their own local authority. It’s as close to being formally them are owned and let by private landlords. At the declared a ghetto as you’re likely to be. start of the scheme it was possible to make contact with No control is proposed for other types of occupier in mixed only 84 per cent. of those landlords, and at that point residential areas—such as tenants of housing associations, social 68 per cent. were easily given licences, but it is difficult housing, third party housing or owner-occupiers. So to single out to find out where properties are let to tenants by a private landlords shows grossly unfair double standards.” private landlord if that landlord does not want to tell That opposition completely misunderstood the anyone. Often it is necessary to rely on the information Government’s response, which was a recognition of the given by local residents associations when there are fact that certain areas were being dragged down by problems. In the area I mentioned, the excellent Trinity private landlords who put antisocial tenants in them at residents association works closely with the council and a cost to the public purse, and that there was no remedy the registration and enforcement teams, to deal with available to the local authority to deal with it. Selective particular properties. I am not bringing case work here—I licensing schemes were the only mechanism or tool am too long in the tooth to want to bring case work given to them. before hon. Members—but they find properties where the tenants have caused a nuisance and the council goes Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): My hon. through the lengthy procedures to try to get the landlords Friend is making very thoughtful comments. The real to conform and deal with the tenants, or, if they will not issue in the areas that he and the private landlords’ do so, to fine them. Extensive fines are available to the representatives talked about is not even the cost to the council if it is proved that the landlord is not complying public purse, but the cost to the good residents whose with the legislation. lives are made intolerable by the behaviour of a small I want to finish by talking about the time factor. I minority of bad tenants, and the landlords who fail to have, I hope, a reputation as a localist. The schemes that deal with that. The stabilising of an area for the many have been set up are working. There are five and a half good residents is fundamental, and the approach that posts in Manchester in which people are employed to my hon. Friend describes is vital to the re-establishment carry out the schemes, and they are improving the life of of people’s ambition to live and settle in those areas. local residents, albeit slowly. It took nine years to arrive at the schemes, and it takes a long time to set them up. Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend’s observation is The Department says that it takes six weeks, but the accurate, but the annoying thing is that although the evidence from Manchester city council is that from real destruction and cost, which are difficult to quantify, consulting and trying to initiate a scheme it takes the are inflicted on people, that happens at a cost to the Department twice as long as that—13 weeks—to respond. taxpayer, which must be wrong. My real question to the Minister is what the Department knows that is not known in Manchester, Sheffield, When the 2004 Act came into force the Government Salford, Burnley or wherever else the schemes are working. did not publish the statutory guidelines, so Manchester, What is it adding to the process? Now that the schemes which was one of the first authorities to try to implement are up and running, and working well, why are they not the scheme, had to consult using Cabinet Office guidelines. completely delegated to the local authority? That would They are fine; there is nothing wrong with Cabinet speed up the process and would be very helpful. However, Office guidelines on consultation, but no guidelines there is some dispute; I put that point to the Minister were provided by the relevant Department—I cannot for Housing, my right hon. Friend the Member for remember what it would have been at that time, because Wentworth (John Healey), and he acknowledged the the name changes so often. Manchester city council fact. consulted, and the very first area was in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central. I put a second point to my right hon. Friend at a There was also consultation in two wards in my meeting last week. It is simply this. The officials at constituency. Statistics from the responses to the Manchester City council say that the legislation makes consultation included the fact that 71 per cent. of it clear that selective licensing areas are to come to an people wanted intervention and 90 per cent. wanted end after five years. My right hon. Friend said he would landlords to intervene when their tenants were bad, consider delegating such decisions to local authorities, which is one of the responsibilities that the registration particularly those that had experience of the scheme scheme gives landlords. and showed that it was working well and could be extended. Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): The hon. Many who participate in the residents associations of Gentleman makes a good point, but my concern is that Manchester are deeply concerned that the selective licensing even when landlords wish to get rid of a useless tenant it areas are to last only two or two and a half years more, takes months to do so, which makes things more difficult and that private landlords are still trying to evade them. for the landlords. It takes time to do the interviews and to identify people, 249WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 250WH Regulation) Regulation) and the belief among residents is that some of the worst particularly on Canvey island, and I deal with them landlords are trying to hold out until the scheme finishes weekly with the help of the council and the police. once the five years are up. Indeed, I am visiting people in one of those areas on My right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing said Friday. that the scheme could be extended. I would be most I thank the Government for trying to bring forward grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister would confirm more social housing, but I want them to go even further. that today. It would put the minds of many of my I want councils to be more able to build social housing constituents, and those of my hon. Friend the Member and let it themselves. Coming from this side of the for Manchester, Central, at ease if that was so. The Chamber, that comment may seem strange, but I have worst thing they fear, given the effort they have put into been consistent on the subject in my time as a Member. identifying the bad landlords, is that they will be laughing One problem with rented private accommodation is down their sleeves and saying, “Well, you might have safety. The Electrical Safety Council recently issued a stopped me being a nuisance now, but we can soon go warning about the risk of electrical wiring systems. My back to how we were before.” Without selective licensing early-day motion 2105, which is on periodic electrical areas there is no legal means of compelling landlords to testing and inspection, calls on the Government to manage their properties satisfactorily or to take action make inspection “compulsory for rented accommodation”, against nuisance tenants. That is the crux of the matter. particularly in private rented accommodation. I hope that I have explained properly that, because it I am not a regulator. We have to get the balance right. is intense, the selective licensing scheme works better We do not want to turn people away from becoming than a national scheme, but it needs to be delegated to private landlords, or to make the hurdles that they have local authorities. The case is made that, where problems to jump higher. Nevertheless, the landlords themselves continue, the areas should be allowed to continue with have a part to play. If they maintained the houses that the selective licensing scheme until those problems are they rent in good condition and did the necessary work solved—not just for the five-year period—and it is no quickly and properly, I would not be making this call, longer necessary. That is the answer to the Residential but unfortunately they do not. I therefore call on private Landlords Association. The scheme is not stigmatising landlords to accept their responsibility to ensure that areas; it is trying to improve them. I look forward to my their properties are maintained in a safe condition. The hon. Friend’s reply. responsibility must first lie with them, but if they do not accept it the Government will have to move to ensure 9.53 am that private rented accommodation is safe. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I am delighted to You will be aware, Mr. Betts, that I was not intending follow the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham to speak this morning, but I was tempted to my feet to Stringer)—I think I should call him my hon. Friend. In make a couple of points. I imagine that most MPs bringing this important subject to the House and dealing received an e-mail from David Knight of Channel 4 with it as he has, he shows that he is in touch with the yesterday, inviting them to take part in a documentary. needs of his constituents, and has been for many years. We are being asked to live on a council estate in social He shows how caring he is as an assiduous constituency housing for seven or eight days. It seems a long time, Member. and my constituents may not want me to be away from Helping people on housing benefit to get decent the tiller for that long. Channel 4 seems to think that it homes so that they can move on and become more would be a good way to engage the public, and to gain self-reliant—it is possible for some, for others, it is an insight into tenants’ lives—how they deal with the not—is also a problem in my constituency in Essex, problems of poverty and antisocial behaviour, a lack of although the market there is quite different from that in mobility, unemployment and disability, and how they Manchester, as the hon. Gentleman said. Over recent face the fact that they may become trapped in an years, there have been specific problems. The private environment where they are afraid. rented sector is growing. On one hand, people cannot People on one of the estates on Canvey island have sell their houses; there has been a bottleneck for a come to me year after year. I had to deal with the same number of years, which is now starting to work its way problem tenants in 2006 and in 2007, and I wrote to the through, and house sales are starting to increase in my council again in 2008, asking for them to be moved constituency and in others. At the same time, people are away. They are still there. We know what they are doing, having difficulty finding mortgages. They have to be and how they do it, but the police cannot act without earning enormous sums to afford mortgages on the evidence. We have asked for CCTV, but tenants are loan-to-value rates being demanded by the various mortgage wary of being named because they will be targeted and companies. As a result, more people are renting, and will come under even more pressure from the bad there is a greater supply of rented property. The problem tenants, who never seem to be moved on. is one that the Government need to consider carefully. Channel 4 may be on to something really important. There are a number of matters to consider. First, I Perhaps it can do a great service for those who are congratulate the Government on their action over the trapped in the revolving door of poverty, antisocial last year to bring forward more social housing. My behaviour and poor housing. Highlighting the problem constituency needs at least another 200 social housing will be a good thing. I am sure that all Members here units, but where they are to come from I do not know. and their families have themselves lived through difficult The private sector is reluctant to let to those on housing times. Over many years, we, as Members of Parliament, benefit. That is a great shame, as it pushes such people have experienced the difficulties of our constituents, so into specific areas where, as in Manchester, problems we do not need to learn what is happening; we know start to arise of antisocial behaviour, bad neighbours what is happening. We need to find solutions, and I and suchlike. I have such areas in my constituency, look to the Minister to provide some. 251WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 252WH Regulation) Regulation) 10 am Let me turn to the east Manchester of today. In 1997, it was an area people wanted to leave. They used to tell Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): I congratulate me, “We want to get out. We do not want to live here my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley any more.” Those who had the money or the opportunity (Graham Stringer) on securing this timely and important to leave for other reasons, such as different types of debate. I do not want simply to run over all the many tenancy becoming available, would get out. People who points that he has made. He has set out a very clear were left in the area were those who, for different picture of life not just in Manchester but in large parts reasons, were hanging on grimly. Sometimes they owned of the north of England and the industrial midlands. properties that had collapsed in value, due to the collapse My hon. Friend the Minister will recognise many of the of the local housing market. They were very good things that have been said, and I think that you, Mr. Betts, people who felt, quite rightly, embittered by what had will understand from your own constituency the descriptions happened. They felt that the public process—the public that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley authorities, the council and the Government—had not has put forward. helped them. The reality of my constituency is as good a place to Therefore, east Manchester in 1997 was an area that start as any. East Manchester, to which my hon. Friend people wanted to abandon. The long-term future for referred, was probably the first area where the selective the whole community was touch and go, but then this licensing process was brought into operation, and it is Government came to power and invested huge sums of not hard to trace the reason. East Manchester went into public money in the regeneration process. The area is very serious decline with the collapse of industry in the now totally transformed and is unrecognisable compared Thatcher years. We saw the decimation of the industrial with what was once there. That is a tremendous success base in that part of the city, and a dramatic change in because people now want to come into the area—it is a the composition and social demography of the area. very different kind of area. However, there are still The housing stock in the area was overwhelmingly some features that mean we require the maintenance of classical northern English terraced properties. Some the legislation. were owner-occupied, and a considerable number were On Sunday, I was talking to a number of people in owned by housing associations, which, at the time, east Manchester. One owner-occupier told me that he played a disastrous role in the decline of the area. They had lived in the area since the 1970s. He had wanted to had grand schemes to grow their stock without any real get out in the mid-1990s but was now very happy with sense of how to provide for that stock. That led to a the area, although there were still problems. Huge numbers huge number of voids among housing association stock. of terraced houses still exist in the area, as do private The private landlords, who were already there in significant landlords. There are many good private landlords—that numbers, increased in that period. Some of them were is always worth repeating—but the bad private landlords, perfectly good landlords who wanted to maintain both or possibly even worse, the indifferent private landlords their properties and decent relationships between their are the problem. They may live 200 miles away and see tenants and the wider community. ownership of the property only as a form of cash To say that there is a link between poverty, certain generation, and have no sense of responsibility. Such types of housing, housing benefit and bad behaviour is landlords are often the root of the problem, and they simply not true. The overwhelming majority of people still exist. in east Manchester lived, and wanted to live, perfectly There is still a huge turnover of people in different decent lives. The pressure for change came from not the types of tenancy in that part of my constituency. The Government at the time or the local authority, but the underlying reality is that from time to time, tenants are type of residents’ groups to which my hon. Friend moved in—sometimes they are owner-occupiers—who referred. Those are the people who said to me, “We do not respect the rights of their neighbours, and we need something to deal with the small minority of need a proper and sufficient legal process to deal with rogue tenants.” Although the numbers of such tenants them. were small, they could do enormous damage to the My conclusion is the same as that of my hon. Friend. community in those areas. That narrow and specific We need two things from the Minister. One is a commitment focus was the driver for the type of legislation that was to look at the operation of the legislation as is. Although brought in. it works, it is cumbersome and complicated and it can My hon. Friend was absolutely right to say that be refined and made much simpler. As the hon. Member bringing in such legislation was a long, slow, painful for Castle Point (Bob Spink) said a few moments ago, process—from 1997 to the passing of legislation in 2004 when we deal with the difficult neighbour—whether and its implementation in 2006. It took far too long. they are tenants of a social landlord, in council or The ambition was not complicated; it was fairly housing association stock, or a private tenant or an straightforward and obvious. The sad thing is—I am owner-occupier—we need legal structures that allow glad that the Minister does not suffer from this—that if rapid and effective intervention. Preferably that will be the focus and the way of viewing the world is only ever by giving the offender sufficient and clear warning in through the lens of the south-eastern housing market, it the first place that action will be taken. The action will always get things wrong for places such as Manchester, should be sufficient to ensure that, where appropriate, the west midlands and Burnley. In that sense we must the tenant will be moved on. recognise that policies must be differential for different The licensing scheme is part of that process, but it is parts of the country. There may be parts of London not the only thing. We have other legislation to deal that have similar features to the north, so within those with such issues. The Government rightly brought in terms, my hon. Friend’s request that we recognise the antisocial behaviour orders and different sorts of legal need for the process to be selective is very important. mechanics. The licensing of private landlords, which 253WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 254WH Regulation) Regulation) reminds the landlord of their own duties, is very important. Blackley said that of course it is not the case that not all Such measures were never about double standards. landlords are bad landlords, and that much of the Controls exist to make the social landlord operate— quality of housing in the private rented sector is very although not always—in a responsible way. To bring the good. It is worth beginning with that point. MPs always private landlord into that frame of reference is a sensible end up with their views on this issue being skewed, and reasonable thing, so we need to look at the operation because what always comes through their doors are of the relevant legislation to make it less cumbersome complaints about the private rented sector. We see and more efficient, and its operation a lot quicker. people who have problems with badly maintained property, The second thing that my hon. Friend the Member and we have to deal with the issue of problem neighbours, for Manchester, Blackley is right to ask for is some but most people do not come to see their MP about certainty about the continuation of the legal process. problems with their landlord because they do not have We need that certainty. My area is emerging every day, problems with their landlord. It is worth placing on every week and every month from the terrible situation the record the point that both the Rugg review and the that it was in 10 or 12 years ago. If it is to continue to Government’s response to that review highlighted the fact emerge from that situation, we will need that type of that something like two thirds of people in the private legislative control for some time to come. When the five rented sector are quite satisfied with their property. years are up, the legal process will not be finished and It is also worth placing on the record the importance my area will not necessarily be totally stabilised, so of the private rented sector, particularly at the moment, local people will still need to know that those legal as people are struggling to gain access to mortgages. It powers exist. We need certainty about the ability to go is inevitable that the private rented sector will play a beyond the period of five years. bigger part at present and I think that it is healthy for Of course, in the end the most important thing is that the housing market overall that it does so. It is not a this type of control should be delivered locally. There is good thing to have a model that is focused wholly on no logic whatever in Whitehall, despite all its great affordable housing to rent in the social sector and on benefits and so on, being the driver of the process. home ownership. There should be a better balance that Sometimes, even the town hall can be a long way away includes the private rented sector. Indeed, when we talk from the communities that my hon. Friend and I represent, about mixed communities and developments that are although we have a good and competent council that sustainable, we often focus on affordable housing for reflects on the needs of local communities. We must rent, low-cost home ownership and privately owned ensure that the power to maintain the process is kept at property, whereas private rented property should local level, both in terms of implementation and timing—let play an important role in those communities and us unfetter it to ensure that it is effective. developments. Similarly, the hon. Member for Castle Point made a 10.11 am point, based on his experience in his constituency, about the difficulty of gaining access to affordable housing for Sarah Teather (Brent, East) (LD): I want to begin by rent. He said that the private rented sector ought to play congratulating the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley a bigger part in providing housing for people who (Graham Stringer) on securing this debate. I am surprised languish on waiting lists. In my constituency, they often that it is not better attended, because issues relating to languish on such lists for at least a decade. The hon. the management of private sector housing are important Members for Manchester, Blackley and for Manchester, to every right hon. and hon. Member in the House. Central both spoke about local selective licensing issues I think that it would be a struggle to find a Member of in their constituencies. They made very powerful points, Parliament who had not discovered that a considerable as they said that there is no need for Whitehall to try to part of their casework involved dealing with the types run those schemes. They can work very effectively on a of issues that the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley local level, because they are designed to meet particular and his neighbour, the hon. Member for Manchester, local needs. Both hon. Members made very powerful Central (Tony Lloyd), raised during their contributions points about why those schemes have to be time-limited to the debate. and I hope that the Minister will give them good news The hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley spoke in that respect. Such time-limited schemes appear to be specifically about the issues of bad landlords and the a very sensible way to try to deal with the type of local impact that those issues can have on entire communities, problems to which both hon. Gentlemen referred. rather than just on particular individuals who are struggling The Government have recently proposed a national with badly maintained property, which was a point that registration scheme, which is the type of scheme for the hon. Member for Manchester, Central picked up. which the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley has I must admit that I have encountered similar issues in been campaigning. It is perfectly sensible that someone my own constituency, usually with an overcrowded should know who their landlord is, or at least they house in multiple occupation whereby the house ends should be able to find out who their landlord is. I do not up with lots of rubbish in the front garden and there is see any reason why a landlord should not have to lots of noise. Such problems almost always seem to be register their home address. Some of the frustrations associated with overcrowding issues. that people experience in trying to deal with casework, The hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) spoke either as a councillor, a Member of Parliament or as about the problems that he has seen in his own constituency someone in a citizens advice bureau, when they are relating to people on benefits trying to gain access to trying to deal with individuals who have difficulties decent quality private rented sector housing, which is a with properties in a poor state of repair, stem from the point to which I want to return later in my contribution. problem of establishing direct contact with a landlord, In his opening remarks, the hon. Member for Manchester, who might be working through a managing agent. 255WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 256WH Regulation) Regulation) [Sarah Teather] long overdue. Many of experts in the field have been arguing for a number of technical changes to real estate There has been a wider debate about the extent to investment trusts, which might make a difference to the which the private rented sector should be regulated. In amount of private investment coming into the sector. In principle, I am quite sympathetic to some of the proposals particular, they have argued for changes to the amount in the Rugg review about a points-based system. However, of money that needs to be redistributed to shareholders. I am quite anxious about how local councils are able to Do the Government have any response to that? police such a system when they are already struggling to Thirdly, the hon. Member for Castle Point raised the police issues related to HMOs through their enforcement issue of access for constituents on benefits. It is an processes. Local authorities around the country simply enormous problem that I suspect all hon. Members do not have the resources to police such a points-based have met. The main reason why most landlords do not system. particularly want to take tenants on housing benefit or The registration scheme that was mentioned by the a local housing allowance is not quality; it is that they hon. Members for Manchester, Blackley and for are terrified that if the tenants’ income fluctuates, their Manchester, Central is, of course, different from the ability to pay rent will stop, perhaps for an extended proposed national registration scheme, because the council period, while the local authority decides what to do in Manchester is right behind the scheme in the city, has with the tenant’s application. Having benefits suspended signed up to it and wants to run it in the particular way can take an awfully long time to fix, during which time in which it has been set up. That is very different from rent is not paid. having a national registration scheme that is imposed Some local authorities have introduced schemes to everywhere as a one-size-fits-all solution. Inevitably, deal with issues of access arising from the need to give such a national scheme would run into difficulties if a deposits and pay rent in advance, but usually those local council did not experience the type of problems to schemes focus only on people whose need is an absolute which the two hon. Members referred, or if the scheme priority or who are classed as statutorily homeless, so was badly designed or, as I have said, local councils the vast majority of people who are on a very low simply did not have the resources to deal with such income and languishing on housing waiting lists have problems. no chance of accessing them. A number of schemes are One point that was raised in the Rugg review was out there to address such problems. The most interesting whether or not we should regulate agents and set one is a fast track scheme in the south-east that is a criteria for the quality standard to which landlords mixture of underwriting and advice. The scheme pre- must sign up before they sign up with an agent. By approves would-be tenants for local housing allowance. doing so, some of the burdens of regulation could be Hon. Members will realise that tenants cannot obtain removed from local authorities. In their response to the approval for local housing allowance unless they have a Rugg review, however, the Government did not respond contract in place, and cannot obtain a contract unless to that point, so I hope that the Minister will refer to it their landlord understands how much local housing in his speech. allowance the tenant will obtain. In partnership with the local authority, the scheme works out the tenant’s Having said that, regulation is not the only way to level of housing allowance by going through their income drive up standards in the private rented sector, and I and then, through the underwriting scheme, by paying a want to make a few other points, both about issues that small fee—a tiny portion of what a deposit would be, let I was disappointed that the Government did not consider alone a deposit and rent in advance—the tenant can in their response to the Rugg review and about some guarantee that the landlord’s rent will be paid, regardless recommendations in the review that they have implemented. of whether the local authority suspends their benefits First, on tax changes, it is not sensible that landlords or they default on paying rent. should be able to realise the benefit of improving their property only when they sell it. It is much more sensible The scheme addresses a lot of problems with access for them to be able to realise that benefit by offsetting to the private rented sector. Most importantly, it has an the money that they have spent on such improvements impact not just on the individual, who can then access against their income tax, rather than having to wait property, but on landlords with higher-quality properties until they sell their property. The Government have who were previously unwilling to take people on benefits sidestepped that issue and said that the Treasury will and are now willing to do so. The race to the bottom keep it “under review”. I wonder what that means—perhaps that tends to occur in the private rented sector is halted the Minister could tell me.. Does it mean that the issue in areas where the scheme operates. Because people on is under active review or that it is stuck on a shelf to be benefits get access to properties higher up the ladder, considered in 10 years’ time? the landlords at the bottom with very poor-quality properties are left without anybody to rent them to, The second thing that would clearly make a significant which creates an incentive to improve the quality of the difference to the quality of housing in the private rented properties. It is an interesting scheme. As we are discussing sector would be making it cheaper to undertake major local management, I encourage local authorities to repairs. A cut in the VAT rate for renovation and consider it and decide whether they want to be involved rebuilding would make a significant difference and enable in the scheme or whether they could work with local landlords to improve the quality of their property. One businesses to introduce similar schemes in their area. thing that the Government have done, through the Local regulation of the private rented sector is not Homes and Communities Agency, is begin a process of simply a matter of licensing; it is also about improving trying to see how we can increase the amount of private quality in the local area. Local councils have a role to investment in the private rented sector. Proposals to play, but Government could do a great deal with the tax increase that type of investment are very sensible, if and financial changes that I have suggested. 257WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 258WH Regulation) Regulation) 10.23 am issue with that. I had a pleasant trip to Manchester, for obvious purposes, not too long ago, but I am conscious Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I join that despite the changes visible in the centre of Manchester other hon. Members in congratulating the hon. Member areas of difficulty remain, as in London. for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) on securing this important, valuable and timely debate. All of us, Against that background, I want to ask the Minister representing as we do constituents in different parts of about the Rugg review, to which reference has been the country, have had experience of some of the difficulties made. I notice that the review’s consultation had a that can arise in the sector. couple of questions relating to selective licensing against criteria beyond those that exist at the moment; for It is important to recognise—I am glad that it has example, in areas with low energy efficiency or health already been said—that the majority of private landlords and safety ratings. That is fair enough, but my experience are responsible, do a good job and contribute valuably is that a lot of stakeholders have said, “It’s difficult to to the mix of housing tenure in this country. It is answer that fully when we don’t have the best available important at the outset of such discussions to put the evidence base.” issues into that context, otherwise historical images can In particular, what has happened to the report sometimes unfairly skew the reporting. commissioned by the Building Research Establishment? That said, it is of course necessary to ensure that The Department for Communities and Local Government standards are maintained. It is important, therefore, said that it would be published back in April. The that whatever system exists is both proportionate and purpose of the report was specifically to evaluate the targeted. It is also right, as hon. Members have done, to various forms of licensing, but we have seen nothing of put the debate into the context of some of the broader that. It seems strange to move on to the Rugg review issues that arise in our more stressed communities. I without first having published the BRE report to provide note the point raised by the hon. Member for Castle an evidence base. That was the whole point, and it is the Point (Bob Spink) about the difficulties that can arise best starting point. Has the Minister seen the report? with behaviour on some estates. That does not apply Why has it not been published, and when will it be simply to the tenants of private landlords; many of us published? across the board encounter that issue, and it is important As far as one can see from the statistics available, that it is tackled. there is a patchy pattern to how local councils are using I take the point raised by the hon. Members for their current power. As the hon. Member for Brent, Castle Point and for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) about East said, it might be a question of resources, or there the difficulties of access to accommodation for people may be a number of underlying reasons, but it gives on benefits. It will chime with the experience of many further grounds for wanting the best evidence base from hon. Members here. It certainly strikes me that there is the BRE report. The length of time taken seems to have some perversity in a system in which constituents of varied. Given that we all agree that the approach should mine who qualify for benefits, on the face of it, have be both targeted and proportionate, it is striking that difficulty just getting into the system so that their according to the figures that I have seen—this comes deposit can be made available and they can enjoy a from the DCLG’s 2008 regulatory simplification plan—just degree of security to assure their responsible private 107 licence applications have been refused so far in landlords that they will be able to pay. They have to England, but the system has cost landlords alone contend with a pretty rigid bureaucracy. Although it is £87 million, and on top of that there must be costs to not directly the Minister’s responsibility, I know that he the local councils. We ought to be sure that we are will take that point back to his colleagues. getting the best possible value and that the system is as targeted and proportionate as we would all like. Will the I find it strange that, for example, more than one Minister examine whether it is working as efficiently individual in my constituency has come along whose and cost-effectively as possible? circumstances have undergone virtually no change, as far as one can see, but who has had, in the course of a I accept that we should look for ways to improve year, about three contradictory calculations of their access to funding for the private housing market. I endorse benefit entitlements. When they try to pursue the matter, the comments of the hon. Member for Brent, East on they are referred not to the local office in Bromley, real estate investment trusts. What is the Government’s where they could have day-to-day contact, but to the view on that point? rather distant one in Stratford, which is the other side of I believe that we are at a stage where we can sensibly the river and a long way away. They are told to ring a review these matters. Will the Minister assure us that helpline, which generally gives them a recorded message, whatever the Government’s proposals, they will maintain and they do not get a response. It is a frustration for the principles of proportionality and targeting to ensure vulnerable people. I think that Members from all parties that help is given where it is appropriate? The interventions would want to ensure simply that things work better must not bear disproportionately on the private rented within the available parameters. sector, because it provides flexibility and is likely to To return to the licensing system, there are some produce more flexibility in the future. interesting questions about the way forward. I note the My experience and that of many hon. Members is point raised by the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley that people require different kinds of tenure at different about the need to deal with specific areas and the stages of their housing journey. As a student and a philosophy behind the initial intention, and I know that young lawyer, I lived in private rented accommodation the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) before getting my foot on the housing ladder. That is a supports it. Our view is that any approach should be pattern that many people recognise. We support the proportionate and sensibly targeted. I do not have an bridging of the gap by encouraging intermediate forms 259WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 260WH Regulation) Regulation) [Robert Neill] the economy. I welcome her remarks on the Rugg review. Decisions on VAT are a little above my pay of tenure that get people into a housing purchase mode grade, but I will pass on her comments. I will write to more easily.However, there is still a valuable and important her about real estate investment trusts. The hon. Member role for the private rented sector. for Bromley and Chislehurst asked about the BRE The role played by the private rented sector varies report, which will be published shortly along with further from place to place, and a one-size-fits-all model is not guidance on licensing of houses in multiple occupation. appropriate. My constituency is in a London suburb, This has been a great opportunity to debate the need where there are two types of private rented accommodation. for local regulation of private landlords. It is timely, as The old terraced accommodation in the centre of Bromley we are considering the responses to our consultation on would be recognised by other hon. Members who have the proposals we put forward earlier this year, following spoken. However, there is also private rented property the Rugg review, on improving standards and at the opposite end of the scale. People who come to the professionalism across the sector. This is also an opportunity UK to work in the City of London on contracts of only to look at the role of local authorities in licensing two or three years often want to live in the traditional privately rented properties and exercising enforcement suburbs. A one-size-fits-all model is therefore not powers. appropriate. There are almost 3 million private tenants in this I hope that the Minister will deal with my points in country. The private rented sector is vital in providing his response. choice and flexibility at all levels of the housing market. We want to encourage a system that retains the flexibility 10.32 am for those living in the sector and that embraces greater professionalism without creating unnecessary burdens The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for on landlords. We want a professional, high-quality private Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): It rented sector that is aware of its responsibilities to is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, tenants and the wider community, while retaining the Mr. Betts. Given your expertise on this issue, I am freedoms and flexibilities it needs to grow. pleased that you are sitting up there and not down here Achieving the right level of regulation is crucial if the asking me difficult questions. sector is to operate effectively and successfully. The I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for system of assured and assured shorthold tenancies in Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) on securing the Housing Act 1988 was designed to achieve a fair this debate. Anybody who listened to his speech will balance between the rights of landlords and tenants. recognise his expertise on these matters. He should be However, problems in the sector remained, particularly congratulated for the determination with which he has in relation to the management of the poorest quality fought to tackle poor housing throughout his political stock, which is often occupied by the most vulnerable life and for the impact his campaigning had on the tenants. That led to the changes in the 2004 Act for Housing Act 2004. which my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, I am grateful for the contributions of other hon. Blackley campaigned. Members. My hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, The problems with the poorest-quality stock can Blackley and for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) set have a significant and devastating impact on the quality out in stark detail the impact that bad landlords have of life for those who live in poor neighbourhoods. had in Manchester. The situation they describe is Through the 2004 Act, our strategy was to improve unacceptable. We should not tolerate bad landlords health and safety and to tackle the main abuses in the exploiting the poorest people in Britain. They make the system. It introduced a range of initiatives to improve lives of their tenants and others in the community a management standards and the condition of privately misery, while lining their own pockets with housing rented accommodation. In bringing forward the legislation, benefit. I have no hesitation in saying that we should be we took a measured view on the appropriate amount of determined to drive such people out of the market. regulation for the sector and empowered local authorities The hon. Members for Castle Point (Bob Spink) and to act to secure decent standards on a statutory and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) raised the voluntary basis. problems that their constituents who receive housing The 2004 Act introduced the mandatory licensing of benefit have in finding accommodation in the private larger, higher-risk HMOs. Landlords who manage rented sector. As the hon. Member for Bromley and properties of three or more storeys that are occupied by Chislehurst said, that is the responsibility of the Department five or more people who form more than one household for Work and Pensions, which has been improving the require a licence from the local authority. We targeted administration of the system to make payments more those properties because HMOs—particularly larger reliable. In the past, delays have led to landlords not ones—are often in poor condition and represent a high wanting to let to tenants in receipt of housing benefit. risk to the safety and welfare of the occupants. The Landlords can choose whom they let to, and that is a 2004 Act provides for two forms of discretionary licensing: business decision. Many landlords specialise in letting additional HMO licensing and selective licensing of all to people in receipt of housing benefit, although some privately rented property in a designated area. are prevented from doing so by their mortgage conditions. Where local authorities have identified problems with I am happy to meet the hon. Member for Castle Point management and property condition, they have the to discuss the matter in more detail. discretion to introduce additional HMO licensing schemes With her customary eloquence and expertise, the to cover smaller HMOs, which do not meet the mandatory hon. Member for Brent, East (Sarah Teather) discussed HMO licensing criteria. Local authorities may also the contribution that the private rented sector makes to introduce selective licensing schemes to cover all privately 261WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 262WH Regulation) Regulation) rented property in areas that suffer from or are likely to legislation. Will my hon. Friend expand a little on the suffer from low housing demand or that suffer from basis on which the time period could be extended? significant and persistent anti-social behaviour—precisely Again, I thank him for the commitment he has given. the problems identified by my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Blackley and for Manchester, Central Mr. Ian Austin: I do not want to be prescriptive. We in their contributions. want to work with my hon. Friend and his colleagues at So far, approval has been given to two local authorities Manchester city council to enable them to tackle the to operate additional licensing schemes and to 11 local problems in those areas. Although we must ensure that authorities to operate selective licensing schemes. Those licensing schemes are operating in line with the criteria schemes mean that local authorities can impose conditions set out in the legislation, we want to learn from what is on licences, such as requirements for licensed properties happening on the ground, what he sees happening locally to be occupied by a specified maximum number of and the experience of local authorities, such as Manchester occupants, and ensure that adequate amenities are in city council. My right hon. Friend the Minister for place. In addition, private landlords will need to be Housing and I look forward to continued discussions identified as being fit and proper in terms of their with my hon. Friend, Manchester city council and other suitability to manage the property. A breach of a licence local authorities on the issue. condition is an offence subject to a fine of up to £5,000 and, if a licence has not been obtained, managing or Tony Lloyd: The fundamental point is that if the letting a property that requires one could result in a advice my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, maximum fine of £20,000. Blackley has received from our local authority is right My hon. Friends have clearly worked closely not just and there is a need for change in primary legislation, we with my predecessors and the Minister for Housing, the must have certainty about the direction of travel, as we right hon. Member for Wentworth (John Healey), but are obviously now some way into these licensing schemes. with Manchester city council in implementing the licensing I do not expect the Minister to give an answer this provisions in Manchester and in obtaining the approval morning, but will he consider whether we need legislation? of the Department for Communities and Local Perhaps he will write to those who have taken part in Government to operate selective schemes in Harpurhey, the debate to confirm that point. Clearly, if primary Bradford and Gorton wards. My hon. Friends have legislation is needed, we should all look for a vehicle successfully demonstrated that their schemes fit with through which that change could be made. the overall strategic approach on tackling problems in the local private rented sector, and I congratulate them Mr. Ian Austin: Of course, I am happy to write to and the city council on their work. Members and set out the matter in more detail. The On the question of where the balance of decision advice I have been given indicates that schemes could be making should lie in relation to central and local extended. I will consider the matter and come back to government, I want greater flexibility across the range Members with more information. of services that our Department oversees, and greater The hon. Member for Castle Point raised issues about freedoms and flexibility at local level. My hon. Friends safety in the private rented sector. The Housing Act will know—they been intimately involved with discussions 2004 introduced the housing health and safety rating on this—that Manchester, as well as other local authorities system—HHSRS—under which local authorities can in the region, has further proposals to extend licensing make a risk assessment of the likely impact of property to other areas. My Department is working closely with condition on occupants of privately rented accommodation. the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities to If hazards are identified, the local authority has a duty develop a protocol framed within existing legislation in to take the most appropriate action in relation to the order to ensure an efficient and effective approval process hazard. In the most severe cases, it can issue prohibition for future licensing schemes. orders, the effect of which would be to close all or part There were two specific questions about that, one of of a property. Private landlords who fail to comply with which was why should we not completely delegate those such notices can be subject to a fine of £5,000. powers to local authorities. The nature of consent regimes Although I expect local authorities to take a robust means that they are constantly under review and we approach to the tools and powers available to them to would therefore not rule that out. While the regime is tackle management standards in the private rented sector, relatively new, it is important that the Department is we are keen to ensure that they see the provisions of the able to check that the proposals comply with the criteria 2004 Act as a way of developing partnerships with good set out in the legislation. My hon. Friend the Member landlords. Doing so will enable them to play a full part for Manchester, Blackley also asked whether I would in meeting housing need through raising both the physical confirm that licences could be extended if necessary. As standard of the property and the management standards. he said, approval schemes last a maximum of five years, That is particularly necessary because we are concerned but I can confirm that licensing schemes can be extended about the most vulnerable tenants. and that they continue in force after their initial date if The hon. Member for Brent, East raised the issue of problems are still manifesting themselves. I hope that he deposit schemes, which is one of the other key measures will be satisfied with that assurance. in the 2004 Act. The requirements are for landlords to protect their tenants’ deposits in a Government-authorised Graham Stringer: I am extremely grateful to the Minister scheme. Those arrangements are designed to safeguard for that response—indeed, that is what the Minister for the interests of both landlords and tenants, and to Housing told me—but the advice I am getting from ensure good practice in deposit handling, so that when officers in Manchester city council is that such an a tenant pays a deposit and is entitled to get it back, he extension is not possible without changes in primary or she can be assured that that will happen. 263WH Private Landlords (Local 21 OCTOBER 2009 Private Landlords (Local 264WH Regulation) Regulation) [Mr. Ian Austin] The third proposal is for improved complaint and redress procedures for tenants. For the first time, the As I have mentioned, through the 2004 Act, the Government will look to set up a mechanism whereby Government have acted to tackle the areas of greatest tenants are able to register official complaints about risk within the sector. Although the measures in that substandard landlords. If those complaints are upheld, Act started to drive improvements, a range of bodies, landlords might be removed from the national register. including the Law Commission, Shelter and the citizens Fourthly, we propose that there should be greater local advice bureaux, continued to express concerns linked to authority support for good landlords, as well as action proposals for further change. Against that background against poor-performing landlords. of progress on the ground and ideas for further improvement, we decided to commission an independent Our proposals will provide greater support for landlords review of the private rented sector from Julie Rugg and and letting and managing agents, alongside better consumer David Rhodes of the university of York. As has been protection for tenants. Local authority enforcement said, that review was published in October 2008 and activity will be enhanced and more focused, and local highlighted the positive aspects of the sector: most authorities will be encouraged to create local lettings landlords are good and the vast majority of tenancies agencies to better facilitate tenancies in the private begin and end with no issues arising for either party. rented sector for those in housing need, including housing However, the review also identified weaknesses. Although benefit recipients. Local authorities will also be encouraged most landlords are well-intentioned and deliver a good to ensure that their staff receive training to help them to service, some simply do not view themselves as landlords. resolve issues between tenants and landlords and to A minority are ill-intentioned, often deliberately exploit sustain successful tenancies for some of the most vulnerable the most vulnerable and allow antisocial behaviour to members of the community. become rife, as has been said in the debate. The review also found that local authorities are not always able to Alongside our proposals for a national register of all focus their resources to enable them to use the extensive landlords, we want there to be improvements in enforcement powers in the 2004 Act against the worst professionalism, and encouragement for those who aspire landlords. to higher standards. The most obvious way of doing The Government’s response to the review for that is through access to accreditation schemes. For consultation, which we published in May, sets out our several years, many local authorities have run successful ideas for major changes to further improve the private schemes for their landlords, offering training and sharing rented sector. We have been very encouraged by the good practice and experience through forums, as well as positive reaction to the proposals, having received more having a clear quality kitemark for potential tenants. than 250 responses. We are now considering those responses I know that Manchester city council operates such a and will publish the results of the consultation in November. scheme, which gives tenants assurances about the standard Let me go through the main measures that make up of service that they can expect and gives landlords who our proposals. First, we propose to introduce a national belong to the scheme a market advantage. register of every private landlord in the country to increase protection for both vulnerable tenants and In conclusion, we are confident that the package of good landlords. Landlords would need to include their measures I have described will be key to securing the registration number on all tenancy agreements, and improvements in quality and professionalism that we they could be removed from the register if they failed to seek. They represent a sensible balance between providing comply with the required standards. A register would support for good landlords and providing the tools that enable us to identify bad landlords and to get them out local authorities need to deal with poor landlords. of the market if they were unwilling to improve their Support for the sector is ever more important in the behaviour. current financial climate, which has underlined the vital Secondly, we propose full regulation for private sector role that the sector plays in providing for the housing letting agents. Letting and managing agents have a vital needs of a wide range of households. We are grateful to role in the private rented sector but do not currently all those who have responded to the review, and to all need market expertise or professional credentials, while hon. Members who have taken part in today’s debate, tenants and landlords have no realistic redress when for their constructive input to the ongoing process to things go wrong. To tackle those problems, the Government drive up standards in the private sector. We will continue propose to set up an independent regulator to oversee to develop our proposals and take them forward in the all letting and managing agents. next few months. 265WH 21 OCTOBER 2009 Conservation Areas 266WH

Conservation Areas seems to have given no regard to local opinion, and about the future of other conservation areas. The continued 10.53 am attempts of local residents to protect the estate seem to have failed. The estate was granted conservation area Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I status back in 1970, and one of the first issues that I got want to raise an issue concerning the Planning (Listed involved in as an MP was supporting residents such as Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990. The problem the late Ken Abbott in attempting to obtain the enhanced is best illustrated by explaining to the Minister the protection that an article 4(2) direction seemed to offer. plight of residents of the Moor Pool estate in the heart After years of pushing Birmingham city council, the of my constituency. The estate is an early example of a direction finally came into place in December 2006. garden suburb. The aim was to build an estate of Alas, however, the protection is limited; above all, it modern, well-built houses of various sizes, which would does not apply to new developments. attract a cross-section of the community, based on We thought that the Planning (Listed Buildings and co-partnership principles. At that time, Birmingham Conservation Areas) Act might come to the rescue. was plagued by slum dwellings, typified by the back-to- Section 71(1) clearly states: backs, which came about as the city developed rapidly as an industrial centre. John Nettlefold, the then chairman “It shall be the duty of a local planning authority from time to of the Birmingham housing committee, wanted to time to formulate and publish proposals for the preservation and demonstrate that there was an alternative way forward, enhancement of any parts of their area which are conservation areas.” and so he turned to the principles of the garden city movement. That meant that Birmingham city council had a statutory The Moor Pool estate was not intended to house a obligation to produce a character appraisal, but as for particular employer’s work force, as was the case with the question of when this should happen, the Act tells Bournville and Cadbury’s, but was to serve Harborne us only that it has to be “from time to time”. The and Birmingham in general. It has 500 houses, a community character appraisal matters, because it determines how hall with sports amenities, open spaces and allotments, planning applications should be considered. The appraisal and it has remained almost intact for more than 100 years. was particularly important in this case because of the English Heritage has described it as added requirement, under the legislation, for publication and public consultation. The strength of feeling on the “very significant architecturally and historically”, Moor Pool estate in opposition to the plans is palpable, and as an “exceptional survival”. and it could not have been ignored by the council if it Over the years, people have bought their own properties had been expressed through the character appraisal on the estate, while others are still tenants. Indeed, some process. tenants are relatives of the first occupants in 1907. The I invite the Minister to comment on the following estate has changed hands, too, from owners who cared points. The case officer who recommended approval for for the fabric of the community and ensured that it was the building of 12 new houses in the heart of the Moor maintained, to the current owner, Grainger plc, which Pool estate said in his report that he noted section 71, clearly does not share that approach. Grainger’s annual but that the words “from time to time” indicate that an report of 2007 is amazingly explicit about how it views appraisal may not always be in place. He also referred estates such as Moor Pool with regulated tenancies. It to English Heritage’s guidance, which states: says that they give “Ideally, an appraisal should be prepared prior to designation; “predictable vacancies and therefore sales as our tenants get but, for many existing conservation areas, this will not have been older.” done.” It continues: The case officer said that his planning solicitor did not “On vacancy we sell the properties to realise both the discount therefore consider that there was an absolute duty to (which we call reversion) and any house price inflation from the date we originally bought them. We therefore realise high margins carry out an appraisal before conservation area designation. on sale.” He went on to say that the solicitor did note, however, that planning policy guidance 15, “Planning and the The report also observes that Historic Environment”, requires local planning authorities “these properties are typically unmodernised and appeal to first-time to set out their policies for conservation areas in their buyers and those hoping to create value on renovation. This keeps development plans. He also acknowledges that them in demand.” Birmingham’s unitary development plan refers to character For Grainger, ownership of the estate is not about appraisals in paragraph 3.27, “Conservation Areas”, maintaining a community, but about waiting until tenants which states that die so that it can sell unrenovated properties at high margins. That is what it is doing. The results of years of “Character Appraisals and Management Plans will be prepared for all of the City’s Conservation Areas.” neglect are there for everyone to see in the communal areas such as garages and allotments. To add insult to That is clearly an ongoing process, as is it as Moor Pool, injury, Grainger has made a planning application to fill where work on the appraisal and management plan is in with new build. Despite the coherent and united progressing. opposition of local people and their residents association, We have received confirmation that a commitment which is supported by English Heritage, the planning from Birmingham city council to prepare appraisal and application for 12 houses has been granted by Birmingham management plans for all its conservation areas does city council. exist, but I wonder how it would define the word Something has gone wrong. I am concerned about “progressing”. Is it progressing after 39 years of being a the future of the Moor Pool estate, about the process conservation area; progressing after 19 years of having involved in granting the planning application, which had a statutory duty; or progressing three years after 267WH Conservation Areas21 OCTOBER 2009 Conservation Areas 268WH

[Ms Gisela Stuart] The next argument I came across is as follows: while local authorities have the power to reject planning the application of an article 4(2) direction? What speed applications, it is difficult and expensive to do so. The of progress does the council have in mind? I cannot developers appeal, eventually get their way, and the resist recalling the opening passage of “The Hitchhiker’s council wastes taxpayers’ money by refusing in the first Guide to the Galaxy”, in which the Vogon constructor instance. One local councillor went even further and fleet descends on earth to destroy the planet and the suggested, “If you turn too many of those down, you’d commander points out to the complaining earthlings soon find yourself being personally charged for the that the planning application had been available on costs.” Would the Minister confirm that a councillor Ursa Minor for at least 50 of their earth years. properly exercising his or her function when considering a planning application does not run the risk of being Despite contacting both the chief executive of personally charged with the cost of an appeal? Objectors Birmingham city council and the leader of the council, should have the same right of appeal as applicants. Councillor Mike Whitby, who incidentally is one of the Planning officers and committee members make mistakes, three local councillors representing Harborne and the so it is not equitable that only the applicant can appeal Moor Pool estate, we still do not have a firm date for against the decision. the character appraisal. That also raises the question of the role that local councillors can and should play in The planning application that was approved by that process. Planning is and should be a local decision. Birmingham city council included development on, and With regard to the Moor Pool estate, Councillor Whitby the consequent loss of, allotment spaces, for which could have argued that he did not think that it was there is an acknowledged demand. The application was appropriate for him to comment on a planning application, granted, despite the fact that it has no regard for the which I would have been perfectly prepared to accept. council’s unitary development plan and was contrary to However, that argument simply does not hold, given its cabinet decisions of 29 June, which fully supported that only six weeks ago, he found it appropriate to the measures of the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, object to the opening of a new café bar on Harborne which included a concern to increase local food production High street. He also chaired the Moor Pool conservation by, among other measures, allowing more allotments, area appraisal and management plans steering group in and that was pointed out to the planning committee at December 2006, even though it would have been perfectly the time. Would the Minster not agree that it is perverse all right for it to be chaired by the head of conservation. for a planning committee to arrive at a decision within a There was therefore plenty of time and opportunity for matter of days that is contrary to its council’s own local councillors to speed up the process and get the policies? character appraisal done in time, but that clearly did Where do we go from here for the Moor Pool estate? not happen. The residents have been failed by the council, which did English Heritage also objected to the development. not prepare a character appraisal in time, despite having In its judgment, a key aspect of the estate’s character more than 19 years to do so, that would have constrained was that many of the spaces were of good quality, and a planning application. The council claims to have a should be treated as an integrated system in the clear commitment to produce character appraisals for consideration of development proposals that affect them. all its conservation areas, but so far it has done so for In July this year, Grainger’s application was approved only nine of its 28 conservation areas. The council can by the council and its planning committee. Conservation clearly do that quickly if it wants to, as it did with the area status, objections from English Heritage and application for Digbeth. In the case of the Moor Pool overwhelming objections from the local community—none estate, it seems that even if the leader of the council of it mattered. The builders won and the people lost. himself chairs the steering group, nothing much gets done. I urge the Minster to look again at the 1990 Act. The process also highlighted a number of what I will Surely it cannot be right and equitable for an Act to call stock excuses used by the planners to support impose a statutory duty without being more specific property developers. The argument goes something like about when that duty should be performed—“from this: the Government have a clear policy to increase the time to time” is just not good enough. housing supply and want to encourage the use of brownfield sites in cities. Even back gardens are defined as brownfield 11.7 am sites, so any local authority faced with a planning application by a developer, even if it is in a conservation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for area, is caught between a rock and a hard place. They Communities and Local Government (Barbara Follett): I have a duty to increase housing stock and so have to say congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, yes. If it is in a conservation area, they simply describe it Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) on securing the debate. The as permitted development. Would the Minister respond historic environment is a very important subject indeed, to that point, because that should not be the case? In and one that is at the heart of the Government’s planning particular, does she agree that the law could be strengthened policy. I also commend her for the active interest she by the following proposals: that an article 4(2) direction takes in the historic environment within her constituency, should apply to all aspects of properties in a conservation particularly with regard to the Moor Pool estate. It is, as area, unless specifically excluded, and not just to those she rightly says, an early example of that peculiarly visible from the highway, waterways or open spaces; 20th-century manifestation, garden suburbs, which can and that there should be a mandatory requirement for be extremely charming and deserve to be conserved. character appraisal to be completed within 12 months As she will know, I cannot comment on the specific of the introduction of an article 4(2) direction, with problems that the residents of the Moor Pool estate are only limited and defined planning applications being having with Birmingham city council. Individual and determined in the meantime? specific planning issues, such as the one she has described 269WH Conservation Areas21 OCTOBER 2009 Conservation Areas 270WH extremely well and so forensically today, are a matter management and appraisal plans for only nine out of for local government rather than national Government. 28 conservation areas was not unusual, and that a vast I believe that that is right, because accountability for number of local authorities with conservation areas are planning decisions must rest at the local level—in other really dragging their feet on coming forward with proposals. words, with the council that takes the planning decisions. Would the Minister like to comment on that, or would That accountability is exercised through the ballot box, she drop me a note if she does not have figures on hand? and it is right that it is exercised through the local rather than the national ballot box. In other words, people Barbara Follett: I would like to comment on the have to live with the consequences of their decisions active role that the residents’ association is taking, for locally. which it is to be commended. I urge it to exercise its However, I can give my hon. Friend the legal context democratic duty and rights, and submit something to within which Birmingham city council must operate the consultation. when making those decisions, which is a matter for There is no statutory obligation to have character national Government. As she will know, that context is appraisals, although English Heritage recommends one changing. On 24 July this year the Government issued a prior to designation and as frequently as needed thereafter. consultation paper on our new planning policy statement I urge that that, too, be included in a submission to the for the historical environment, and I urge her to submit consultation. Obligation is very much locally defined, as part of that consultation the points she has so ably so again this is a local problem and local pressure is made today. Her points about timing are absolutely needed to get the definition included. crucial: one can have a duty, but if it does not have to be As I said earlier, central Government intervene in exercised for 39 or perhaps even 49 years, what is the individual cases involving conservation areas only in point of it? those rare instances where there are implications of The new planning policy statement is designed to more than local interest—for example, an area such as replace the present PPG15 on this subject, and also Stonehenge, which has huge national implications. We PPG16 on archaeology and planning. As those policy try, as far as possible and for all the reasons I have guidance documents were first issued in 1994 and 1991 given, to leave matters to local decision making, because respectively, the importance of the consultation on the local people know best what suits them. Government’s first new policy statement for 15 years The Government’s approach to conservation areas is cannot be overstated. My hon. Friend’s Adjournment based on positive management of change, so that the debate is consequently very timely. particular special interest and character—my hon. Friend As my hon. Friend knows, the main legislative measures outlined that so well in respect of the Moor Pool for protecting conservation areas are set out in primary estate—that led to an area being designated in the first legislation, some of which she mentioned. Under that place is not harmed. If a planning authority is considering suite of legislation, local planning authorities have a taking a decision that could affect a conservation area’s duty to determine which of their areas have architectural special interest, it is vital that it engage local opinion. or historic interest, to designate them as conservation That is a legal requirement but also a requirement of areas, to formulate and publish proposals for their good management and, most importantly, of democracy. enhancement and preservation and, most importantly— That is what democracy is about—the people, the demos, going back to local accountability—to put proposals to deciding. the public whom they serve so that their views can be taken into account. Central Government recognise that local planning authorities are under a variety of pressures—in some There are other measures which, for the sake of cases, competing pressures—to deliver on several fronts. brevity, I shall skip over—I know that my hon. Friend is They must address the housing shortage, provide the aware of them. Taken together, they include not infrastructure to support new housing and meet the inconsiderable obligations and ensure that a mechanism challenges of climate change. Those are difficult demands, for protecting conservation areas is in place. even in easy economic times. They are even harder in My hon. Friend accurately raised concerns about the difficult economic times. progress being made on character and management appraisals—in this case, by Birmingham city council. There has been a radical shake-up of the planning They must be raised and dealt with locally, but they system in recent years. In response to my hon. Friend’s could also go into the consultation on the new measures question about the article 4(2) direction, we keep permitted that the Government are in the process of putting development requirements under continual review and forward. Again, I shall glide over some of the extra stuff can certainly consider her request, which is interesting. in my brief. Again, I urge its inclusion in the response to the consultation. There are more than 9,000 conservation areas in England. They contain a wide range of buildings and The 2007 planning White Paper—I had the pleasure places of architectural or historic interest. Again, it is of serving on the Committee that led to the Planning very much a matter for local decision making which Act 2008—was followed by the Killian Pretty end-to-end areas should be designated as having special interest, review of the planning application process, which was and how best they should be preserved and conserved, much needed. I hope that those changes have made the particularly as there are as many as 9,000. system better able to meet present and future challenges, but it is important that meeting challenges be not Ms Gisela Stuart: May I also put on the record that undertaken at the expense of protecting the historic the local residents’ association prepared much of my environment. Until three weeks ago, I was the Minister speech and has done a great deal of hard work? It has for culture and heritage, and I have a strong personal put up an amazing case of objection without being and professional interest in the preservation of our heard properly. We were told that the record of having heritage. 271WH Conservation Areas 21 OCTOBER 2009 272WH

[Barbara Follett] English Libel Law (Parliamentary Proceedings) The publication of the consultation draft of the new PPS confirms the Government’s commitment to conservation of the historic environment. When it is [MR.ROGER GALE in the Chair] finally produced, it will be a much more focused document that will set out core policy principles on how the 2.30 pm planning system should take account of the historic environment. It will be supported by draft guidance Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): produced and prepared by English Heritage. The guidance I am pleased to have secured this debate, which deals is being consulted on at the same time, as part of the with some important issues: parliamentary privilege, consultation package. the reporting of Parliament, the use of prior restraint in actions relating to libel and, indeed, confidence, the use The principles that guide the new PPS are brigaded of so-called super-injunctions that impose restraint on under the three Government objectives for planning for the reporting of the existence of such injunctions, the the historic environment: we have to apply the principles extent to which public interest is engaged when such of sustainable development to proposals involving the injunctions and super-injunctions are issued, and the historic environment; we have to conserve and, where general approach of libel laws in particular, bound up appropriate, enhance England’s heritage assets in a as they all are. I draw the Chamber’s attention to my manner appropriate to their significance; and we have membership of the international board of Article 19, to contribute to knowledge about and understanding of which campaigns for press freedom around the world. our past. Those three good principles will guide the new PPS, which will also emphasise the need to establish the In the run-up to this debate, I convened helpful significance of an historic asset. I can see that being meetings with The Guardian and Carter-Ruck solicitors, useful regarding the need for character appraisals. which several hon. and right hon. Members in the Significance is defined as the value of the place to this Chamber—as well as Members not here—attended, and future generations because of its heritage interest, and we had a useful discussion. I record my gratitude to whether archaeological, artistic, architectural or historic. those people who came to those meetings from Carter-Ruck It is only when the significance of the asset has been and The Guardian. I particularly thank The Guardian established that sensible policies can be devised to conserve for its assistance in providing me, other hon. Members the asset, and sensible decisions taken on proposals that and members of the public with background details of might impact on its significance. The draft PPS recognises the case. I also thank Carter-Ruck for acceding to a that establishing significance is particularly important request to provide us with the correspondence from its for larger historic assets—conservation areas or world point of view between the dates of the initial injunction heritage sites, such as Ironbridge or Stonehenge—because and the second injunction. their different elements make differing contributions to It may be useful to run briefly through the chronology their significance. of events that led to last week’s point of order, and of The consultation period runs out on 30 October, so I which we are all aware. I will not go into them in detail, have given my hon. Friend and the residents’ association because other hon. Members may wish to do so—and I just a small window of time in which to prepare their know that many of them want to speak—so I shall try arguments and put them into a consultation that will to keep my comments as brief as possible. An injunction shape policy for the next decade. was issued by Justice Maddison on Friday 11 September, effectively preventing The Guardian from publishing I should like to leave my hon. Friend with the following what it had—a copy of the Minton report relating to messages. Planning for the historic environment is a the alleged impact of Trafigura’s dumping of toxic Government priority that is underlined by the concern waste in the Ivory Coast. I imagine that it had a number and care that we are putting into the new PPS. The of other documents as well. Not only was that injunction legislation is there to help preserve and enhance conservation issued but it had a super-injunction aspect, which meant areas already in place. Most importantly, the onus is on that it was effectively anonymised, and the respondents each local planning authority to devise the policies were prevented from reporting the existence of the needed to ensure the protection of its conservation injunction itself. The application was pursued and extended areas. Those authorities have a continuing obligation to on 18 September. Things changed on 12 October, when do this, because proper protection does not begin and The Guardian wrote to Carter-Ruck, which was acting end with the designation of an area: it is a work in for Trafigura, alerting it to the fact that a series of progress. Planning authorities must involve the local written questions had been tabled by the hon. Member community when developing suitable policies and for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), and indicating determining planning applications. Only by doing this that it wanted to publish them, either because they were can a true sense of ownership and a true sense of place in the public domain or—and I am not giving The be achieved. Guardian’s view here—because they should not be covered I wish my hon. Friend the very best of luck. by the injunction itself, being the reporting of parliamentary proceedings. 11.21 am Carter-Ruck solicitors wrote back on 12 October, Sitting suspended. objecting to the publication. They stated that the matter was not urgent, and their view that the questions themselves had not placed the contents of the Minton report in the public domain, so that certainly should not be covered. They also stated in a letter to Mr. Speaker their view that publishing the parliamentary questions would place 273WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 274WH Proceedings) Proceedings) The Guardian in contempt of court, because of the not simply leave it to the judges to develop these super- order that prevented—injuncted—the publication of injunctions that have pernicious effects way beyond the existence of the injunction, which was the subject of reporting in Parliament? the parliamentary questions tabled by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. Dr. Harris: A strong case can be made for that, and Extended correspondence over the next two days certainly parliamentary action is needed. While case law between The Guardian and Carter-Ruck resulted in is being settled and developed, it is wrong that Parliament agreement that a variation to the order would be sought should be silent in the matter. I say that with no disrespect to exclude reporting of parliamentary proceedings. By to judges. This area of law is complex, various rights that time, The Guardian had been prevented on at least must be balanced, and the right approach must be taken one occasion from publishing what it wanted to publish, to convention rights. There is greater and greater concern which was at the very least the existence of the parliamentary out there that the courts are not dealing fairly with the questions and what they contained. A number of things matter. I suspect that both sides, but particularly flow from that, and I want to cover them briefly. The defendants—those whose free speech is interfered with—are first is whether an injunction can prevent a matter from not happy with the current situation. Part of the point being debated in Parliament and/or the reporting of of this debate is to urge the Government to review the matters in Parliament. The second is whether Carter-Ruck’s law in this area more widely than they have done so far. approach in its correspondence was appropriate to what I recognise that they have completed a consultation on many hon. Members believe to be the position—that costs in defamation actions which impinge on defendants’ the reporting of Parliament should be freely, truthfully ability to afford to defend themselves, and on single and fairly reportable without any intervention or restriction publication rules relating to the internet. However, concern by the courts or any other party. The third concerns goes far deeper than that, and all of this is subject to super-injunctions, their frequency, and whether judges forensic examination by the Select Committee on Culture, are considering the wider public interest when granting Media and Sport, of which the hon. Member for Maldon injunctions or super-injunctions. The fourth is whether and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) is Chairman. libel laws in this country are too wide, a matter to which We all hope that the report makes clear recommendations the Lord Chief Justice no less referred yesterday. in that area, and I hope that the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) will have some relief in that respect. However, in responding to that report and this Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am grateful debate, the Government should be in no doubt of the to the hon. Gentleman—I might call him my hon. wide unease among parliamentarians, the media and Friend in this cause. We were here a few months ago, free speech organisations that the balance of the judge-made and sadly nothing has advanced. If the Government law in respect of these matters is wrong at the moment. had treated the issue more seriously, perhaps we would I turn briefly to the conduct of Carter-Ruck. It ought not be where we are today. to be said—the company has always been willing to In past years, people who sought to gag Parliament make it clear and to talk about it to us when asked, and or were held to have behaved inappropriately in relation also volunteered to meet us—that it was not its intention to Parliament were brought before the Bar of the House during any of this actively to prevent the reporting of and in some cases sent to prison. Do we not need to see parliamentary proceedings. That is Carter-Ruck’s position. Carter-Ruck’s partners before the Bar of the House to One can accept that at face value. The question is apologise publicly for this attempt to suborn parliamentary whether what it said in its letters to The Guardian, and democracy? The threat was withdrawn only after press indeed what it wrote in its letter to the Speaker, is publicity. Something very serious has happened. The consistent with that. Essentially, it said that because Government will not act to clean up libel law; perhaps there was no exemption for reporting parliamentary we can do so as parliamentarians. proceedings in the order made by the judge, The Guardian would be in contempt of court—the implication being that serious penalties would flow from that—if it were Mr. Roger Gale (in the Chair): Order. Before we to report parliamentary proceedings. proceed, for obvious reasons, several hon. Members want to take part in the debate. Please may we have Carter-Ruck did not at any point caveat that with a interventions that are interventions and not speeches? paragraph stating, “But of course, we understand that Dr. Harris. no court could or perhaps would ever seek to enforce a contempt action against someone who reported parliamentary proceedings fairly and truthfully.” It is Dr. Harris: Thank you, Mr. Gale. I was going to the absence of that caveat that could be said to make it come on to Carter-Ruck’s behaviour, a matter on which look at the very least that it was seeking to intimidate individuals may have their own judgment. The Guardian on the basis of a threat of being in contempt if it published parliamentary proceedings. Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I congratulate Such a threat would, of course, be extremely effective the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon against most defendants, especially those who do not (Dr. Harris) on his birthday, as I understand that he is have the means or the legal resources of The Guardian. 44 today. More importantly, although this debate is In effect, failure to point out to a defendant that, of about libel, I understand that the injunction was not in course, if it is the view that parliamentary proceedings libel, but in confidence and privacy law. That is entirely should not be prevented from being reported, or could judge-made, and has never been subject to statutory not be prevented, letters from a well-resourced law firm debate in the House. Does the hon. Gentleman agree acting on behalf of a well-resourced client would have a that we should have proper statutory provision if we are chilling effect. It is also fair to say that The Guardian to have privacy and confidence law at all, and we should was in doubt about its own legal advice on the matter. 275WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 276WH Proceedings) Proceedings) [Dr. Evan Harris] It is important to deal with the question of super- injunctions. Some people would argue that it is wrong That gives rise to my first question for the Minister—and that any injunction should be kept secret, saying that for everyone in the House, including Mr. Speaker. Is it the gagging should itself be made public even if the the case, in the Minister’s view, that a court could ever content of what is to be gagged is not, as it is in the take action for contempt of an injunction that did not public interest. I do not take that view. I am not an mention the reporting of parliamentary proceedings expert, but it does not seem wise to say that the point of and therefore did not give any apparent exemption for an injunction—for example, for privacy of confidential reporting parliamentary proceedings in a fair and truthful medical information on an individual—could be frustrated way? If that is the case, and the Lord Chief Justice went by the reporting of the fact that an injunction exists. quite far yesterday in response to a question by saying It does not necessarily follow that every injunction that he could not envisage circumstances in which it founded on personal privacy or confidence should be would, that is not the certainty to which people are the subject of a super-injunction. Indeed, I know of entitled in law. examples of private individuals having an injunction to I hope that the Minister will be able to give the prevent the reporting of something. However, as the Government’s view of whether that is settled, and if so Lord Chief Justice made clear yesterday in a good on what authority it is settled; and if there is any doubt, example relating to the seizure of assets in a fraud case, it being such an important matter, that she and the there will be cases in which the public interest is clearly Government would be willing to consider introducing served by an injunction restraining publication of its legislation, or allowing the opportunity for legislation, existence. Indeed, there may be cases in which it is to make the position absolutely clear. We cannot afford arguable, when there is no clear public interest, that the for there to be any doubt or debate, as the only people overall balance of private interests is clear. Nevertheless, who benefit from that are the lawyers who are asked for it seems to me that some cases are currently subject to their opinion. super-injunctions, particularly in respect of libel, where they are inappropriate; and they may be being granted inappropriately because there is no clear public interest Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): First, I ought argument for those who wish to be free to publish the to declare an interest. Some years ago, I benefited from existence of the injunction. the services of Messrs. Peter Carter-Ruck and Partners in a case against the BBC. The default must be that the public should know about such prior restraint when it is deemed to be Is it the hon. Gentleman’s case that no agreement can appropriate. I would be grateful if the Government be reached between parties through the courts of this clarified their view. Do they believe that the position on land to keep a matter confidential? It is my understanding super-injunctions is fine and dandy, or do they accept at that from 18 September, The Guardian consented to the least that there is a case for the matter to be considered? order, but that it is right for Parliament to be able to I believe that senior judges would argue that it is difficult. overturn an arrangement arrived at in the courts, One has to sympathise with their position, as in the particularly at the behest of an hon. Member who middle of the night—or at least outside the working happened to be a journalist on one of the newspapers day—they are sometimes asked to make quick decisions, concerned? and default on the side of confidentiality. Such injunctions are extremely restraining of free speech, and there is a concern. Dr. Harris: First, I should point out that The Guardian contests whether, or the extent to which, they accepted I also ask the Minister whether she accepts that there the order made on 11 and 18 September. Secondly, we is a difference with gagging generally but especially are not talking about the ability of a Member of Parliament libel, between an individual seeking to assert a right—for to overturn a court order. We have sub judice rules that example, to privacy under the Human Rights Act 1998 apply. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme or the European convention on human rights—and a was able to table his questions within those rules, presumably corporation doing so. There may well be a public interest because they were nowhere near breaching the rules or in seeking to restrict the reporting in a way that public because of the particular skills that he exercised. That is authorities cannot, but private corporations can. It not the same as stating that the intention, or the intended seems to me that the balance there is wrong. effect, was to overturn the order, which was at least in The other point that I wish to raise is a general part about the publication of the contents of the Minton concern about the impact of English libel law. It is report. I understand that the legal case to which the noteworthy that the Lord Chief Justice said yesterday—I Minton report was said to be legally privileged was do not quote him directly—that if London is the libel settled in September, before the hon. Member for capital of the world, something should be done about Newcastle-under-Lyme tabled his questions. That should it. I hope that I do not misquote him; I do not have his be the end of that particular matter. words directly to hand. There is widespread concern. The key thing is whether we are to have clarity on the The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) point. I ask the Minister whether, in the interim, all secured a debate on that subject a few months ago. court orders that injunct against publication or the Serious concerns were raised then, but in a number of passing on of information should make it clear, in what cases since, there has been no reassurance that that is I might call a template, that they do not affect the fair not the case. and truthful reporting of Parliament, so that there can Some matters are sub judice—I will be very careful be no doubt and no costs incurred in clarifying the about what I say here—but there is widespread concern matter, and no chilling effect caused by assertions to the about the ability to discuss scientific matters and the contrary. That would be useful. nature of the evidence base from, on the one hand, 277WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 278WH Proceedings) Proceedings) doctors and writers who are interested in the subject Mr. Roger Gale (in the Chair): Before we proceed, let and, on the other, those who are promulgating treatments, me make my intentions known. I intend to call the first whether conventional or alternative, and who have an Front-Bench spokesman at half-past 3. There are nine interest in seeking to make claims that could be challenged Members in the Chamber looking as though they might by scientists. There is widespread concern that such wish to contribute, so brevity is the order of the day. actions are restrained by the reach of the English libel laws. There is a lack of a public interest defence—the 2.53 pm burden of proof is placed on the defendant, not on the plaintiff—and there are issues of cost, which the Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I Government would say that they are seeking to deal congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford, West and with. I should be grateful if the Minister accepted that Abingdon (Dr. Harris) on securing this debate. To say there is a case to be made—and I hope that the Select that it is timely is an understatement. I also congratulate Committee is investigating this—to show that our libel Mr. Speaker for strongly exercising his discretion in laws are wrong. allowing this debate to go on in the face of objections by the now even more infamous firm of libel lawyers, Dr. Ehrenfeld, who is American, was sued in this Carter-Ruck. country by someone from another country for the publication of a book that was mainly published outside I am a former journalist, which has been mentioned, this country and sold very few copies. For London to be with Reuters, The Independent on Sunday and the Observer, used in that way cannot be the way forward. There are which, of course, is owned by the Guardian Media other examples as well, and there is widespread concern Group. I am also a member of the Culture, Media and in the writing community. English PEN, Index on Sport Committee, which is producing a report on press Censorship and Article 19 are all concerned about such standards, privacy and libel. I do not want to pre-empt matters. that report, but I want to make a few remarks, having tabled the parliamentary question last week which revealed I urge the Minister in her response to give us some the existence of this super-injunction obtained by Carter- reassurance that the Government are alive to those Ruck on behalf of the oil trader Trafigura. concerns, and that they recognise that the case law that has built up in this area may not be appropriate for the Mr. Gerald Howarth: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us sort of freedom of speech that we want to see. There is how he came by this information that The Guardian was an argument, and clearly there are grounds, for some about to publish? Is he aware that Carter-Ruck knew protection of reputation, confidence and privacy, but it nothing about his question until it received a fax from is time that Parliament had a chance to have a say in The Guardian? Was he in cahoots with The Guardian, such matters, particularly at a time when the reporting having been formerly employed by the Guardian Media of parliamentary coverage of those things has been Group? under threat. It is a curious and unsatisfactory situation, in which Parliament appears to be caught in the crossfire, Paul Farrelly: Strangely enough, I anticipated that without ever having a proper chance to debate such question from the hon. Gentleman. As a former journalist, matters. I would never reveal my sources. The issue has been My final question relates to the ongoing problems of alive on the internet for weeks for people to see, but not English libel law in respect of Trafigura. My understanding the British newspaper-reading or television-watching is that “Newsnight” is being threatened by the lawyers public. The Chairman of the Select Committee—I am for Trafigura, Carter-Ruck, if it repeats an allegation glad to see him in his place—and I were at a media against Carter-Ruck that deaths were caused by the lawyers’ conference a week last Friday. When I was dumping of toxic waste in Ivory Coast, even though in talking to people, this latest super-injunction was one of 2007 Hansard reported the Transfrontier Shipment of the hot topics of the day. It was not difficult to discover Waste Regulations laid by the Department for Environment, that the injunction was in place. Food and Rural Affairs before Parliament, and a The injunction suppressed the internal Minton report memorandum of explanation to those regulations into the toxic oil waste dumping and the reporting of stated: the injunction. There was also a further level of secrecy. “The recent example of the release of toxic waste in the Ivory Trafigura was granted anonymity by the court, and its Coast leading to the deaths of a number of people and the name and that of a subsidiary were replaced on the hospitalisation of thousands underlines the risks involved in the injunction’s title by a random set of initials, RJW and movement and management of waste.” SJW. Ironically, that further level of secrecy may have How can it be that that can be in Hansard, yet there are been Carter-Ruck’s undoing. I was aware of the injunction still threats of legal action against “Newsnight” if it but not of the full anonymous title. My question only reports the very same wording that is used in there? named Trafigura and Carter-Ruck and not The Guardian. That cannot be right. Although there are powerful I assume that the Table Office Clerks doing their usual interests at stake, there is a public interest in the fact rigorous sub judice checks simply could not find the that there was a settlement made—hundreds of millions injunction and, therefore, the question was accepted. of pounds paid over in that settlement—and yet the That prompts the question of what might have happened public in this country are not allowed to know some of if the injunction had been found, and if the courts the contents of those news reports. We have a responsible could have informed the Clerks that the injunction was media by and large in respect of such matters, and it is in place because of the secrecy. I might return to that about time that English libel laws and English laws in matter in my concluding remarks. general caught up with that fact. What is really important here is that last Monday legal advice on both sides, The Guardian’s counsel and Several hon. Members rose— Carter-Ruck for Trafigura, agreed that the scope of the 279WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 280WH Proceedings) Proceedings) [Paul Farrelly] In this case, however, Carter-Ruck has clearly received a bloody nose; so much so that last Friday, having injunction would have prevented the media from reporting already caused so much further embarrassment to its the question as part of the proceedings of this Parliament. clients, it backed down and consented to the reporting That was an extraordinary state of affairs—that this of the Minton report after all, and the injunction, conclusion could be reached notwithstanding common because of the rights asserted in this House, crumbled. and statute law that enshrine qualified privilege for the By the way, the Minton report was freely available media reporting of Parliament in a free society. overseas and on the internet, which makes a further Equally extraordinary is the statement by Carter-Ruck mockery of the Court’s decision to grant the injunction in its letter to Mr. Speaker last week, which said that in the first place. However, this is just one case, and one battle does not win a war. It is really important to have “when the order was made (and endorsed by the High Court) proper reform of these procedures in the courts, and I none of the parties or the court had in contemplation the possibility of this matter being raised in the UK parliament. If they had, the would welcome the Minister’s comments on that when Order may well have been formulated in such a way as to allow for she winds up. such reporting.” So far, I welcome the confirmation by the Secretary How magnanimous and generous of them! of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor that he is The injunction has been published in full on the addressing this issue and will be meeting newspaper and website of The Guardian—without my collusion—and other media editors. I particularly welcome the statement on my own website. It has also been circulated by the that the Lord Chief Justice made yesterday on his hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon. The concerns about the way these injunctions are being circumstances in which it was issued are important. It issued and his view that parliamentary privilege should was granted in the High Court on 11 September by not be constrained in any way. However, it is important vacation duty judge Mr. Justice Maddison, who has no that these sentiments are followed through in practice. known specialism in media law. The Guardian was given One of the other benefits of this affair, of course, is that just a few hours’ notice of the hearing and no time to there are now plenty more people watching, and I am marshal a defence. Was the injunction drafted by the sure they will be only too ready to alert Members of this judge or the clerks of the court? No, it was very helpfully House to what they feel are abuses against Parliament’s presented to the judge by Carter-Ruck—presumably privileges and the right of the public to know. run off in standard form from a file of precedents of This case highlights one other important issue for “super-injunctions” that the High Court has granted the House. Parliamentary privilege cannot be seen to before. be something that just lies in textbooks and is taken for What this affair shows is that orders, injunctions and granted, and yet is eaten away at all the time by super-injunctions, which have been developed from sparing over-confident lawyers such as Carter-Ruck. Our use in cases involving individual privacy, are being time-honoured rights are only as strong as their granted all too often, easily and pre-emptively on the assertion, and in the last 10 days they have been grounds of confidence to big corporations or powerful strongly asserted in this House; importantly, because of figures seeking to avoid embarrassment. Of course, all our separation of powers, they were reasserted the arguments, including that of “public interest”, can yesterday by the Lord Chief Justice. be aired in court at a full trial, challenging the injunction. However, there are issues for the House to resolve, or However, here is the rub: the costs are simply enormous at least to clarify, regarding its own sub judice rules. and the likes of Carter-Ruck know that full well. That goes back to the question that I raised earlier: The Guardian estimates that challenging the Trafigura what would have happened if the Table Office had been injunction at full trial might have cost as much as advised of the injunction or been unable to find it, and £300,000. Private Eye in an earlier case involving Michael had left the parliamentary question in limbo? There is a Napier had £500,000 on the line if it had lost its technical but important argument about when court challenge, which, thankfully, it did not. So money for proceedings are active in terms of the House’s rules. multinationals and the likes of Carter-Ruck is no object, Carter-Ruck, in seeking to prevent this debate from but it is for the likes of The Guardian, which is currently happening, sought to argue that the existence of the making redundancies. Could a newspaper such as that, injunction itself means that proceedings are active. Of a very responsible newspaper, justify spending that sum course, The Guardian, which was not resolved to go to of money even as a matter of principle? I would argue full trial because of the cost, would argue the contrary: not. That is where the effect of such injunctions lies. that an injunction is a finite action and no proceedings What this affair shows, too, is that aggressive lawyers are under way. such as Carter-Ruck are given too much freedom of I hope that Mr. Speaker and, indeed, the Ministry of manoeuvre by the courts. They draft the injunctions Justice and the Leader of the House will take a look at themselves, and that says almost all I need to say. They the rules of the House. Of course, application of those are out of control—in this case, so much so that they rules is subject to the discretion of the Speaker or that overreached themselves by trying to put themselves of a Chairman. However, it would be perverse, following above freedoms that have been time-honoured since the this affair and the controversy it has caused, if the 1688 Bill of Rights, and, indeed, above the law. They are parliamentary Clerks, on whom we rely for so much unquestioned and unfettered, and in instances such as advice, became more conservative in their approach to this we would have not the rule of law but the rule of the questions they accept for tabling. In newspaper lawyers, backed up by expensive legal threats that are as terms, the Speaker is the editor, who always has the final predictable as clockwork, and that are often made to say, but the parliamentary authorities—the Clerks—play hon. Members of the House going about their business the role of the newspaper lawyer. All of us who have without the protection of privilege in the House. been involved in journalism know that there are media 281WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 282WH Proceedings) Proceedings) lawyers who want to help get a story out, however media lawyers, we have also been in receipt of several difficult that may be, and those who prefer not to take letters from solicitors’ practices that relate to our own too many risks if they can help it. proceedings, and which touch on parliamentary privilege. I will draw my remarks to a close. Mr. Gale, with your I shall refer to two such letters. The first was from a permission and discretion I was going to try to use this solicitor’s practice questioning whether it was appropriate debate to finish off this perverse injunction for good, in for two members of our Committee to participate in a the public interest, by reading into the record some of particular session that involved taking evidence from a the damning extracts from the Trafigura report. Thankfully, newspaper, and referring to the code of conduct for after last Friday that is no longer necessary. Instead, I Members of Parliament. When we took advice on the just want to conclude with a quote from a lawyer who matter, we were advised by Speaker’s Counsel that appeared in front of us at the Select Committee on the letter in itself verged upon improperly interfering in Culture, Media and Sport, with Mr. Gerry McCann, the proceedings of the Committee’s work. the father of young Madeleine McCann, who disappeared The second letter challenged the Committee’s right to so tragically in Portugal. It was in large part the press accept from a witness written evidence that included behaviour in the McCann case that prompted the Select repetition of allegations that had been subject to libel Committee inquiry that Mr. McCann appeared before. proceedings. On the advice of Speaker’s Counsel, I I will quote just one part of the evidence from the responded to that practice, quoting article 9 of the Bill lawyer who accompanied Mr. McCann: of Rights. I must say that I then received a response “I am primarily a claimant libel lawyer, but I am a huge fan of from that solicitor’s practice, which said: newspapers. I think they perform an extremely valuable role in “You refer to Article IX of the Bill of Rights, but I assume - our society. I love reading them.” please forgive me if I am mistaken - you have the Human Rights Those are the words of Carter-Ruck’s Adam Tudor, Act 1998 in mind.” who was advising Gerry McCann but who is also the I did not reply. Speaker’s Counsel replied and he made it Carter-Ruck partner advising Trafigura. clear that the reference was to article IX of the Bill of Because of the costs involved, without MPs using Rights, which he quoted: traditional rights of privilege and without the Speaker “the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parlyament asserting those rights, the British newspaper-reading ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place and TV-watching public would not be aware of a report out of Parlyament”. commissioned by a multinational oil trading firm that is He went on to quote the judgment in Prebble v. Television scathing of its own safety practices in dumping toxic New Zealand, in which waste in a very poor part of Africa. I hope the Minister “the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council noted that the law will assure us this afternoon that those rights will be had long been settled that the interest in ensuring that the upheld in the face of assault from the likes of Carter-Ruck legislature can exercise its powers freely on behalf of its electors and the clients whom they actively recruit to use our with access to all relevant information was an interest which must libel and judge-made confidence laws and our courts. prevail.” I will not quote the whole of that judgment, but it absolutely confirms the absolute privilege of Members 3.4 pm of Parliament, and indeed of those giving evidence to Mr. John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford) Select Committees. The importance of Select Committees (Con): As has already been said, the Select Committee is that privilege does not just cover their members but on Culture, Media and Sport, which I have the privilege also people giving either written or oral evidence to of chairing, has been conducting a lengthy inquiry into them. press standards, privacy and libel, and we hope to That seemed to be the end of the matter, although I publish our conclusions shortly. am still slightly concerned at another letter that I received During the course of that inquiry, we received evidence from the Clerk of the Journals, who said: about the chilling effect on journalism of the use of “A key aspect of privilege protecting freedom of speech in conditional fee agreements and about the tension between Parliament is that the freedom is exercised responsibly. If it is not, there is a risk of damage to the reputation of the House and of articles 8 and 10 of the European convention on human undermining that freedom itself. There is always a danger that an rights and how that has led to the growth of a body of individual, criticised under the protection of privilege, will go to privacy law in this country without Parliament ever court complaining that they have no right of reply. This is not a having properly legislated in that area. We have also theoretical point - it has happened before the European Court of received evidence on libel tourism, which has been Human Rights in the case of AvUK...Although the judgment referred to—indeed, we met Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld. We supported freedom of speech in Parliament it did raise issues have looked at whether corporations should be able to about the protection of the rights of individuals.” sue for libel and whether the offence of criminal libel There is still a question about this area and perhaps it is should remain on the statute book, and we have also something that the Minister would like to address. looked at the use of super-injunctions. Those are all However, this particular debate relates to the reporting wider questions than this debate, but I hope that the of proceedings in Parliament. It had seemed to me, until report, when we publish it, will provide an opportunity the written question tabled by the hon. Member for for a much wider debate in the House on the need for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), that the law was reform of our libel laws. pretty clear. A question has arisen as to whether proceedings During the course of the inquiry, we took evidence in Parliament put a matter in the public domain. We from the Lord Chancellor, the Master of the Rolls, have seen the advent of televising, and most of our editors of newspapers and a very large number of sessions have been televised and streamed on the web. media lawyers, acting both for plaintiffs and for defendants. Indeed, during the recess, the BBC devoted an entire As well as the formal submissions that we received from day to the proceedings of my Committee’s inquiry—the 283WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 284WH Proceedings) Proceedings) [Mr. John Whittingdale] on what basis the injunctions were sought or what other court proceedings the injunctions were linked to. If it broadcast lasted for about eight hours, which probably turns out that no serious proceedings would follow, tested the patience of even the keenest observer. There other than the injunctions, we are talking purely about is, therefore, no question but that what is said in a Select a matter of confidentiality and/or privacy, and actually Committee is now in the public domain. just embarrassment and, possibly, commercial cost to Despite that, the hon. Gentleman’s experience has the principals. flagged up the question of whether an injunction should That said, I can believe that the judge and the apply to proceedings in Parliament unless it is specifically applicants—the solicitors for Trafigura—obtained an varied to allow parliamentary proceedings to be reported. order that they did not expect would cover Parliament. What has concerned me, particularly in the two meetings Indeed, they did not even think of Parliament, and that organised by the hon. Member for Oxford, West and may be understandable. What is clear, however, is that Abingdon (Dr. Harris), is not just that it was the view of from the day that Trafigura’s solicitors wrote to the Carter-Ruck that a variance would be required for The Speaker and to all Members of Parliament, they knew Guardian not to be in contempt if it published information that it did cover Parliament. They did not put their about the existence of the parliamentary question, but hands up and say, “We’re going to withdraw it straight that that also appeared to be the view of The Guardian. away.” They waited another day and took instructions We now have a copy of the letter sent by The Guardian before trying to go along with The Guardian to vary the to Carter-Ruck, which mentioned the fact that the terms of the injunction. Even then, they did not drop question had been reported by The Spectator, on Guido the injunction. Fawkes’s website and, indeed, by the leader of the I therefore want to make a request, although I am not Liberal Democrats on his website. The letter says: sure whether I should make it to the Minister and/or the “In light of these developments please can you confirm by judges and/or the House authorities, including the Speaker. 12pm today to a variation of the order that will allow our client to Every injunction in the High Court and every secret publish information about this parliamentary question.” injunction should be logged in the High Court so that Until now, my understanding has been that that did not we no longer get the reply, “We don’t know how many require a variation of the order and that the publication injunctions there are.” If we do not know how many of proceedings in Parliament—whether a question on there are, we do not know what they are. If there is no the Order Paper or evidence given to my Committee— central register of injunctions, it is time that there was. would be covered by privilege, and that any injunction There should also be a notification of all injunctions or attempt to enforce one would be thrown out on that that make an injunction secret; otherwise, how can basis. It is therefore extremely worrying that not only people check whether they exist. the solicitors for the plaintiffs, but The Guardian’s in-house lawyer appear to think otherwise. That is a matter of When I intervened on the Prime Minister a week ago, deep concern to Members of the House, and I hope that I said that in cases that involved children or that involved the Minister will address it. not just national security, but grave national security, some kind of inhibition on what people say or—where 3.11 pm something has been said—on what is reported is appropriate. I am sure that there are House rules covering Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West) (Con): By way of a that, which would make the Speaker, in effect, the declaration of fact, I should say that I have had four super-editor of Hansard. successful claims against newspapers for libel, but that was in cases where what was said was untrue, damaging The senior judges should get together, preferably in and not privileged. As I understand it, there is not really the open and without waiting for a Law Commission a question of whether what is in the Minton report is report or even for Select Committees, other than the untrue. To say that hydrogen sulphide in low concentrations one that my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon and is easily detectable, but that at high levels it is not and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) has spoken about. leads to death is a matter of chemical and biological They should say that the super-injunction process will fact. be rolled back and used only when it is absolutely essential—not just when it is desirable, not just when We have to remember, of course, that it is the population people ask for it and not just when a newspaper agrees near Abidjan who are the real sufferers. Although the to it, but when there is some overwhelming reason why parliamentary issue and the newspaper issue are important, it should exist. I do not think that would happen in the reason why such waste dumping is illegal throughout cases of libel, because there is a pretty good process for the European Union is that it is dangerous, and replicating post-act claim. some kind of refining process on board a ship on the way to Africa is wrong—no one tries to defend it. We should get away from the idea that a newspaper is However, I think that I am right in saying that Trafigura a defendant. A newspaper is a respondent. What we are claimed after the second settlement that the waste talking about is not a criminal act at the moment. As far “could at worst have caused a range of short-term, low-level as I understand it, we are talking about civil actions. flu-like symptoms and anxiety.” There are many other things that I should like to say, All that is contradicted by the Minton report, but the key one is this. Health and safety issues—as this which is available at https://secure.wikileaks.org/wiki/ case was in its foundation—should not be secret. In Minton_report:_Trafigura_toxic_dumping_along_the_ aviation, we are perfectly used to having reports of Ivory_Coast2C_14_Sep_2006. near-misses. If there is ever an air crash, there is an Three years on from the report that Minton and investigation, and the same thing applies on the railways. colleagues were able to produce within a week of being The number of people put at risk by Trafigura’s actions asked what was likely to have happened, I am not sure was enormous and swamps all the deaths that we have 285WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 286WH Proceedings) Proceedings) had in aviation in a year. The processes involved are so making a political point, that I recognise that The Guardian well known that they were barred not only in this does not have a lot of money, which is why it has closed country, but in Europe. down offices of the Aldershot News in my area: it has We must share information, and newspapers and the sucked them dry to fund The Guardian itself, which does media have a responsibility to make available to all what not make money, whereas my local newspapers, and is known to a few. If we do not establish that principle, many others around the country, did. We need to consider those of us in this House will not just look pretty whether, having failed in the court to obtain its desires, stupid, as we have until now on this issue, although we it then resorted to other means. have made a recovery, but we will fail those for whom I understand that the court made an anonymity order we are supposed to be working. We will end up with because it appeared to it that worse situations, with more people getting away with “publicity revealing the identity of the Applicants is likely unfairly things for longer, and we will fail to save the lives or to damage the interests of the Applicants”, improve the well-being of those for whom we should and that that was accepted by The Guardian. I also feel responsible—the citizens not just of this country, understand that the view of leading counsel for but of other countries around the world. The Guardian was that the effect of the order as it stood would be to prohibit The Guardian from reporting the 3.18 pm hon. Gentleman’s question, and that therefore it required Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): Let me say at variation. It would appear to me—I may be wrong—that the outset that I yield to no one in my enthusiasm and there is a certain amount of agreement between the support for parliamentary privilege. It is an absolutely parties as to how the court proceedings should be vital tool, which enables all of us in the House to carry resolved. out our ancient constitutional duty of addressing the I think it entirely legitimate for this House to be able grievances of our constituents. It allows us freely to do to say that in exceptional circumstances there are overriding that without being intimidated by powerful vested interests issues that affect our constituents and the wider public of whatever sort—perhaps the powerful interests these interest, and which require us to intervene. This may be days are the press, who are in the van of the campaign one such case—I do not know; but I think that we have, to support parliamentary privilege. as a House, to consider fairly carefully the number of I make no comment on the report about Trafigura’s times we might think it right to interfere in decisions of activities, for I do not know about them. I came here the court, whose job it is to try to reconcile the differences simply because I read the Carter-Ruck letter on my way between the parties. In this case the court clearly found to the House yesterday, and it raises serious issues. My that making an injunction was the right thing to do. hon. Friend the Member for Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley) is absolutely right to say that the Minton Paul Farrelly: Clearly, from what has happened this report clearly raises matters of huge concern to all of us week, it is not only Parliament that shares these concerns, as parliamentarians. My hon. Friend the Member for but the Lord Chief Justice, the most senior judge in the Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale), who land. Has the hon. Gentleman read his comments of is struggling, with his Committee, to try to define how yesterday—it is very rare that the Lord Chief Justice to frame a law of privacy in this country, is in my view issues a press release—on super-injunctions? What is up against the most enormous challenge. I wish him the hon. Gentleman’s view about the concerns that the well in trying to find a way through. Lord Chief Justice has raised? I want to raise one question: to what extent this House should be able to disrupt commercial arrangements Mr. Howarth: No, I have not read the comments of that are the subject of resolution in the courts. It is no the Lord Chief Justice, and will happily do so, in order more, no less than that. When I read the letter of that I may be better informed. However, there has Carter-Ruck’s yesterday it concerned me that, as I always been a perhaps uneasy relationship between the understand it, the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme legislature and the judiciary and it seems to me that this (Paul Farrelly)—I am very happy for him to intervene if is one area in which that has been exposed. It may well he wants to put me right—tabled a question that clearly be that the case is such as to raise issues on which there had some bearing on the injunction, which I understand should be more opportunities for Parliament to intervene, The Guardian consented to. It seems to me that we have but I think we have got to be fairly careful to ensure that to allow commercial parties—and in this case a newspaper we allow the law to have its role, where it can examine is a commercial party—to resolve differences by reference the cases that come before it, perhaps in more detail to the court, if necessary: clearly, a last resort. than we are able to do, and decide what is, in its view, the best way to proceed. Peter Bottomley: My hon. Friend is making his point The fact is—this is what came out of the letter that reasonably, but it is worth pointing out that the PEN Carter-Ruck sent to all of us, and it stood out to and Index on Censorship briefing, which is available me—that The Guardian has got form here and has on a today, but which he may not have seen, gives a full number of occasions, not just this occasion, got Members chronology. It is not clear exactly what court issues still of Parliament to stand up in the House and make had to be determined, other than the injunction itself. statements under privilege, which enable The Guardian to repeat them in the paper the following day. Mr. Howarth: As I understand it, the substantive proceeding had not been set down. The hon. Member Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): for Newcastle-under-Lyme mentioned the costs—£300,000, It is an impertinent intervention, but there are only four I think—of going to a substantive hearing. That is minutes left for Back Benchers to speak in the debate. clearly a huge amount of money and I am bound to say, I should be very grateful. 287WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 288WH Proceedings) Proceedings) Mr. Howarth: My hon. Friend makes an extremely The principle is enunciated that, certainly on the good point and I am happy to sit down now. I hope that Floor of the House of Commons, there should be no I have made my point and that the hon. Member for question of restraint. I remember when Lord Rooker—then Newcastle-under-Lyme will take it in the spirit in which Jeff Rooker, Member of Parliament for Birmingham, I have made it. I shall certainly have a look at the Perry Barr—raised a subject that caused great concern suggestions of the Lord Chief Justice. to a number of Members in the House. He got it wrong, unfortunately for the individual to whom he referred. He made the most gracious apology for his mistake, but 3.26 pm without the ability to raise such issues, as this one was Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I raised the other day on the Floor of the House of am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Commons by way of a question, we are lost. We need to Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) for enabling me to have a know in order to be able to regulate and have an brief shot at this debate. opinion on the development of our society and laws. Article 9 of the Bill of Rights was not a matter of light spluttering on our constitution. It followed on a 3.31 pm century when the authority of the Executive—power Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): This controlling the courts—could stop or threaten people is an important matter in both constitutional and legal who spoke freely. It is followed by the Americans in the terms, and I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member articles attached to the constitution, in their Bill of for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) secured Rights, almost to the letter. It is fundamental to freedom this timely debate. We have always known, and been of expression and the constitutional development of proud of the fact, that we have the right to speak our our own country. Anyone who believes in freedom must mind in Parliament without fear or favour and without know that the concept of prior restraint is a very consequences outside this place. That is enshrined in sensitive and difficult area, but the principle that underlies the Bill of Rights, and it is an important right. We also it is “publish and be damned”. believed that a battle was fought and won in the late In our moderate world we normally look carefully 18th and early 19th century to ensure that proceedings into such things, but I have also had a conversation with in this House were made available to the British public— a former Lord Chief Justice—about anonymity of witnesses. originally against the views of many in this House. It That was developed in the courts, where now an application was protection against Parliament, not others, which can be made for witnesses to be held to be anonymous, sought to fetter the reporting of Parliament. Nevertheless, so that defendants are not necessarily aware of who is that battle was won. That is what is in question today. accusing them. I said, “Why that was not picked up? We I am pleased that we had meetings with The Guardian have been told that there are 300 cases outstanding now and with Carter-Ruck. It clarified a lot of issues for me. in which as a routine matter there is an application for I did not realise initially, for instance, that the action anonymity of witnesses.” He said, “Well, I didn’t know was not a defamation action but was based on confidence about it. There is no way of tracking it.” That was a and that it had been held before a commercial rather question on which my hon. Friend the Member for than a libel court, so the honourable Justice Maddison Worthing, West (Peter Bottomley) made a very good perhaps had less experience of that field of work. point. We now have the east European-sounding Ministry of Justice, but does it monitor what happens in the I also had not realised that the initial super-injunction courts, if the judges are not in a position to monitor it? made no attempt to fetter the discretion of Parliament—it was a catch-all injunction as to the terms under which it Developments are going on that strike profoundly at could not be reported—but that The Guardian later our sense—certainly my sense—of liberty. How many questioned whether it could report proceedings in prior restraint orders in non-national security cases are Parliament in the context of the order, and was told that being granted? That should be recorded and the intent it was Carter-Ruck’s firm opinion that The Guardian and purpose behind it should be examined. could not, that it would need a variation, and that to do I should declare an interest. I am a parliamentary so would be contempt of court. co-chairman of the Campaign for Freedom of Information. As we know, various things happened after that. One of the major issues in our country was to find out I tabled an urgent question on the day, and there was a who was polluting rivers and causing noxious wastes. great deal of action on Twitter and blogs around the That was shrouded by section 2 of the Official Secrets nation, for which I am grateful. Points of order were Act. No officer who knew about a pollution could raised, and on that day, the application for confirmation necessarily put it in the public domain. This is about the of the injunction was withdrawn. public domain. Mature democracy must know what is The key question is whether the Carter-Ruck lawyers happening in its courts so that it can make judgments. were right that such an injunction could apply to the How can we reason but from what we know? reporting of parliamentary proceedings. It is interesting Thanks to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme that the Guardian lawyers acquiesced in that view and (Paul Farrelly) and the hon. Member for Oxford, West thought that it might have substance. I have my doubts. and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), who also sits on the Joint I am not a lawyer, but I have read the Parliamentary Committee for Human Rights, we have had the opportunity Papers Act 1840, which appears to be the crucial legislation. to express some of our concerns adequately—respected It is written in the style of 1840s Acts, but I will read Members of the House present here have done so part of it: moderately, much more moderately than I ever conceive “It shall and may be lawful for any person or persons who now of—and to strike out and stand up for principles is or are, or hereafter shall be, a defendant or defendants in any fundamental to the workings of a free society. I expect civil or criminal proceeding commenced or prosecuted in any the Ministry of Justice to monitor the case closely. manner soever, for or on account or in respect of the publication 289WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 290WH Proceedings) Proceedings) of any such report, paper, votes, or proceedings by such person or The matter must be beyond peradventure. I hope that persons, or by his, her, or their servant or servants, by or under the we will return to the provisions at a later stage and authority of either House of Parliament”— reconsider them. The Select Committee report may be I think that covers the case in point—to apply to the exactly the right vehicle to encourage that debate, and Speaker or the Clerk of the House for a certificate that we will want to participate fully in it. such a report is a report authorised by Parliament. What we should not stand by and allow is any diminution If that is presented to the court, of the rights of Parliament, not because we are pompous “such court or judge shall thereupon immediately stay such civil parliamentarians but because the rights of Parliament or criminal proceeding; and the same, and every writ or process are the rights of citizens in this country. If we allow issued therein, shall be and shall be deemed and taken to be them to be diminished, we are not serving our country finally put an end to, determined and superseded by virtue of this and our people correctly. Act.” That seems to show pretty conclusively that the legal advice was wrong, but perhaps I am wrong and there is 3.39 pm something that I do not understand about it. Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): The second issue is whether such super-injunctions First, I must declare an interest as a barrister. I congratulate are right in any case. That point has been made by my the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) on securing this debate. He has been proactive and others. The idea that we have somehow lost the on this issue over a number of years and many hon. principle of open court, and can now not only stop the Members admire his effort and tenacity. publication of a particular piece of information by My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing, West prior restraint but prevent from being known even the (Peter Bottomley) touched on the detail of the Trafigura fact that it has been before a court, seems a very suspect saga. It was an appalling set of circumstances. That legal development of recent years, and I question it. said, however reprehensible Trafigura’s actions, it had The third element is whether companies have the every right to come to our courts to seek a remedy and right to that protection of privacy in any case. I understand every right to instruct a law firm. The right hon. Member that article 8 of the Human Rights Act 1998 provides for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane) went over the top in for the right to reputation, but how does that apply to a criticising Messrs. Carter-Ruck for taking the case. Trafigura corporate body? How does it apply to a company that had every right to come to our courts and Carter-Ruck appears—as alleged—to have acted in a totally disreputable had every right to use our procedures. way? How can it be right that that is considered a Carter-Ruck should have been more careful in what it matter of privacy and subject to prior restraint? It said in its correspondence. For example, its letter to worries me that a jurisprudence, not just in libel but in Mr. Speaker of 14 October said: confidence, is developing without recourse to Parliament. “In response we pointed out that the threatened publications It is effectively translating defamation into a tort of would breach the terms of the injunction Order and indeed that, negligence, to some extent, but it is certainly developing absent a variation to the Orders, would place The Guardian in in a way that encourages the application of prior restraint contempt of Court. That being the case, we sought The Guardian’s super-injunctions. That is a key concern. Are we in confirmation that they would not so publish.” Parliament satisfied that the laws of libel and privacy Carter-Ruck should have included the caveat that nothing should be developed by judges rather than by statute? that the court had said could prevent the reporting of My answer is no. We need to look at it. parliamentary proceedings. It was a mistake not to do The Minister will respond to some of my questions, so. some she may pass on to others. First, I would like the In the letter that The Guardian wrote to Mr. Speaker Speaker of the House to make it plain that he will the following day, Mr. Rusbridger pointed out: certify under the Parliamentary Papers Act 1840 anything “Carter-Ruck could have replied to the effect that they had no written within parliamentary proceedings under any intention to gag parliamentary reporting and that they had no circumstances whatever, so that there should be no objection to us doing so. question of an injunction applying to parliamentary Instead, their letter unequivocally asserted that the Guardian papers. Secondly, I want the sub judice provisions, would be in contempt of Court and sought an immediate undertaking which are at Parliament’s discretion, not to be defeated that we would not publish.” by prior injunction. Again, that is a matter for the There was certainly an error on the part of Carter-Ruck Speaker. and it is a great pity that the caveat was not in the letter. I want the Minister to make a declaratory statement Carter-Ruck’s letter to the legal department of that the provisions of the Parliamentary Papers Act The Guardian on 12 October, which discussed the public 1840 still hold, that it is the right of people in this domain and anonymity, stated: country to know what happens in their Parliament and “It is not obvious to us that the reporting of this written that the Lord Chancellor will hold to that right, so that question on the Parliament website places the existence of the every judge and solicitor out there hears that declaration. injunction in the public domain. That is a matter which we wish If that is not sufficient, I want a protocol in every single to consider and take instructions on.” injunction that says, “This will not, of course, apply to Carter-Ruck could have rung up any one of about 8,000 parliamentary proceedings.” In that way, there will be barristers who would have given it the answer. I find clarity. that somewhat bizarre. If none of that succeeds, we need changes in statute I turn to Mr. Justice Maddison’s injunction and the law. It is such an important matter of principle that we super-injunction. As a number of hon. Members have cannot afford to allow the legal lottery system to affect said, at the stage of the initial injunction, none of the which judge hears a case and under what circumstances. parties imagined that the publishing of parliamentary 291WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 292WH Proceedings) Proceedings) [Mr. Henry Bellingham] hon. Members. I would like the Minister to comment on super-injunctions. We cannot expect her to solve the proceedings would arise. It would be helpful if the Lord problems with libel law in this country in 10 minutes, Chief Justice spoke to the judge in question. There is but I hope that she will answer the point about super- now a much more open relationship between Parliament injunctions. and the judiciary. Perhaps the Lord Chief Justice could find out what the judge’s reaction would have been had Peter Bottomley: I do not think that this is a libel one of the parties raised what would have happened if case. Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be the terms of the injunction and its contents were discussed helpful if Trafigura spelled out what was the subsequent in Parliament or were the subject of a parliamentary court action for which the injunction and super-injunction question. Perhaps the Minister could facilitate such a were contemplated? discussion. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing, Mr. Bellingham: My hon. Friend has made his point West that super-injunctions should be used only as the very well. last resort. They are being used far too frequently. The In my two remaining minutes, I wish to say a little Lord Chief Justice should issue tighter guidelines on about parliamentary sovereignty. Can Parliament ever super-injunctions. The qualification in Mr. Justice be gagged or muzzled? The answer, manifestly, is no. Maddison’s original injunction that resulted in the so-called Parliamentary privilege is one of the cornerstones of super-injunction is pretty far reaching. Page 3 of the our ancient democracy. It is a vital part of Parliament’s order makes it clear that there would be draconian sovereignty as the highest court in the land. Without it, consequences for anyone involved in proceedings who we would not be able to hold the Executive to account let the identity of the applicant—Trafigura—be known or stand up for our constituents. to anyone. Such far-reaching injunctions should be used only in rare cases. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) I have not seen the transcript of evidence. The order gave us a fascinating history lesson on the reporting of states: Parliament. Of course, everything in Parliament has to be reported. With television and radio, nothing that is “Upon it appearing to the Court (i) that the action is one likely said in Parliament will ever go unreported. Cynics to attract publicity,”— would say that the best way to keep a secret would be to for goodness’ sake, it was always going to attract publicity. announce it in the Chamber, given the interest that It continues: some of the parliamentary press take in parliamentary “(ii) that publicity revealing the identity of the Applicants is likely proceedings. unfairly to damage the interests of the Applicants”. On the sub judice rule, we have Clerks to advise the I would have thought that in all such cases publicity is Speaker and the Chairmen of Committee and Westminster bound to damage the interests of the applicants. They Hall sittings, such as you, Mr. Gale. It was open to the go to court in the first place to prevent something from Clerks in the Table Office to point out to the hon. being published because they are concerned about previous Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) that actions and events with which they were involved. What his question could have been subject to the sub judice is the Minister’s view of super-injunctions? Can the rule. They decided not to do so. Perhaps the correspondence Lord Chief Justice issue tougher guidelines to the judiciary we are discussing has given Mr. Speaker an opportunity on the use of such injunctions before we consider to clarify how the sub judice rule affects parliamentary passing legislation? proceedings. A number of recent cases have troubled me. In some cases, Mr. Speaker has been advised to shut Dr. Evan Harris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the Member up and in others, the Member has been allowed to speak about a case or proceedings that affect Mr. Bellingham: I will give way only once because his or her constituents. We need clarity on that point. people want to hear the Minister, not me. I hope that the Minister will be robust and brave and say without any equivocation or doubt that Parliament Dr. Harris: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for cannot be fettered in this way. I hope she makes it his remarks. I urge him and other hon. Members to crystal clear that no court order in the land can delay or think carefully about whether we should pick on super- interfere with parliamentary proceedings or the reporting injunctions as the particular problem. If the purpose of of them. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot the injunction is to protect confidentiality or to prevent (Mr. Howarth) mentioned, with the rights and powers libel, and the reporting of that injunction frustrates the that hon. Members have come responsibilities and duties. point of it because the internet is used, the real problem All hon. Members must be incredibly discerning and is the initial injunction. My argument, at least in part, is responsible when it comes to exercising those rights and that there should be a higher threshold before injunctions privileges, which is why judgment, common sense and granting prior restraint are granted, especially in libel statesmanship are the order of the day. cases. The public interest should be more of a key consideration for judges. We should not pick on just the super-injunction aspects. 3.50 pm Mr. Bellingham: I quite agree. That could be the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice subject of a debate lasting many hours. The Culture, (Bridget Prentice): I will do my best to be robust and Media and Sport Committee will consider the matter. I brave, but I accept the view of the hon. Member for did not touch on it because I wanted to cover super- North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) that I will not be injunctions, which have been discussed by a number of able to solve the libel laws in the next 10 minutes. 293WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 English Libel Law (Parliamentary 294WH Proceedings) Proceedings) My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Dr. Evan Harris: I will be quick because I think the Justice is very much a parliamentarian—a parliamentary Minister is about to move on. What she says is helpful, figure—and he will take on board every single issue that but it is not a cure for the problem, unless she envisages hon. Members have raised today. In that sense, this that this debate and her remarks will be read by every debate is only part of something that will continue, and lawyer and, indeed, every judge. Will she or her colleague I want to go through some of the areas that we have suggest a cure for the problem that either provides a already started to process and some of the other issues template or states something further than what she has as quickly as I can. just said, so that the matter can be put to rest in all The hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) had future cases? not heard what the Lord Chief Justice said, so I shall read it into the record: Bridget Prentice: I am going to come to some of the “I should need some very powerful persuasion indeed–and things that need to happen in future. that, I suppose, is close to saying I simply cannot envisage–that it The sub judice rule is an expression of the ability of would be constitutionally possible, or proper, or a court to make the House to restrain Members who, in exercising the an order which might prevent or hinder or limit discussion of any absolute privilege of freedom of speech, might offend topic in Parliament. Or that any judge would intentionally formulate the House. It also protects the administration of justice, an injunction which would purport to have that effect.” so that, while the courts cannot restrain parliamentary Those are extremely strong words from the Lord Chief debate, Parliament in turn refrains from airing matters Justice, and I want to put it on the record that I go in proceedings that are active and awaiting adjudication beyond the phrase “very powerful persuasion” and say in the court. in response to the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk On the issue of the super-injunction, again, the Lord (Mr. Bellingham) that it is not possible to fetter Parliament Chief Justice made reference in his remarks yesterday to and parliamentary discussion. occasions when that is useful. The intention is for a super-injunction to be used where there would be a Mr. Heath: I hope that the Lord Chief Justice has detrimental effect on cases that have national security made himself aware of the fact that the issue is not what implications or perhaps on child protection issues—I happens in Parliament; it is the reporting of what think that the Lord Chief Justice gave a simple example happens in Parliament. He does not make specific reference in relation to fraud. We are very concerned that super- to that; perhaps the Minister can do so. injunctions are being used more commonly, particularly in the area of libel and privacy. The Secretary of State Bridget Prentice: I was just about to come to article 9 for Justice has already asked senior officials in the of the Bill of Rights. I am astonished that lawyers Department to discuss the matter with lawyers from the around the country are not aware that there is a difference major newspapers. We are also involving the judiciary between article 9 and the European convention, and so in a consultation. We are looking specifically at how the on. However, perhaps this will be an opportunity for use of super-injunctions has had an effect and what we them to be educated in that respect. Article 9 makes it therefore need to do on that. clear that parliamentary questions, both oral and written, are proceedings in Parliament, and they are protected The hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford by absolute privilege. Article 9 provides that raised the issue of criminal libel, and I should say that, “proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned as we speak, the Coroners and Justice Bill is going in any court”. through the other place. We have tabled amendments to It can hardly be clearer. That means that MPs and Peers the Bill that will abolish criminal libel in terms of receive absolute protection from court proceedings for defamatory, seditious and obscene libel, along with the things said or done when engaged in their parliamentary offence of sedition, which the hon. Member for Oxford, duties. As the hon. Member for Maldon and East West and Abingdon mentioned on the Floor of the Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) said, that is also the House when the matter was debated there. We are case for witnesses who give evidence before Select removing those obsolete offences from the statute book. Committees. We have also recently published a consultation paper The reporting of parliamentary proceedings, like that on the effects of the multiple publication rule. As has of judicial proceedings, is protected by qualified privilege, been referred to during the debate, we are also about to which centres entirely around fair and accurate set out a response to the consultation we have done on reporting—in other words, the material can be published, controlling costs in defamation proceedings and what provided that it is fairly reported. In particular, reports further steps are needed. Our commitment to freedom that are motivated by malice would not be protected by of expression is clear, but as the hon. Member for privilege. Any reporting of Parliament that is fair and North-West Norfolk said, it is not an absolute right. accurate is protected by that privilege. Mention was Freedom of expression has duties and responsibilities made of the sub-judice rule. attached to it, including the protection of the rights or reputations of others. In that context, it is important Mr. Whittingdale: Is it the Minister’s view that the that people have an effective right to redress through the advice given by Carter-Ruck and by the in-house lawyer law of libel, where their reputation has been damaged of The Guardian was incorrect? as a result of the publication of defamatory material. In the short time available to me, let me respond to Bridget Prentice: It is most certainly my view that the some of the issues that have been raised. Yes, I will advice given by both—no doubt eminent—lawyers was certainly take back to both the Secretary of State for incorrect. I am happy to ensure that we send them a Justice and the Lord Chief Justice the message that it copy of article 9, so that they can read and peruse it at might be appropriate for further guidelines to be sent their leisure. out to the judiciary and that we need to consider 295WH English Libel Law (Parliamentary 21 OCTOBER 2009 296WH Proceedings) [Bridget Prentice] Textile Industry whether or not defamation has to be tightened up in any other way. The hon. Member for Somerton and 4pm Frome (Mr. Heath) asked me to declare whether the Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Parliamentary Papers Act 1840 still holds. Yes, it does—I Selkirk) (LD): As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under make that statement as clearly as I possibly can. your chairmanship, Mr. Gale. I hope that we will give Concerns have been expressed about libel tourism, you an easy time over the next half hour. I am not sure and we had a debate about that not very long ago in that I would express the same sentiments to the Minister, Westminster Hall. Of course, the only way in which an because I have a few hard questions for him. However, I English court can hear such a case is if it can show that am grateful for the opportunity to bring before the it has sufficient grounds for jurisdiction. I will not go House the hugely important issue of the difficulties into the detail of the Brussels regulation because, frankly, faced by the textile sector at the moment, particularly in we will all lose the will to live. The Justice Secretary gave my constituency, and I shall raise issues to which I hope evidence to the Select Committee on Culture, Media the Government will respond. and Sport during its inquiry, and we will, of course, take seriously any recommendations that the Committee 4.1 pm makes that would apply to the courts or to the Ministry. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. I am grateful to hon. Members for raising the issue, particularly to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris). I do not believe that the debate 4.12 pm stops here. I will ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary On resuming— of State for Justice, the Leader of the House and the Speaker to come together to look at how we can reinforce Mr. Moore: The textile sector is a huge and important what we know to be true of the rights and proceedings part of Britain’s manufacturing economy, but there is of Parliament. Although I cannot decide the business of sometimes a tendency for people to talk it down. I am the House, I hope that, at some point in future, we will absolutely not in that camp. I think that British textiles be able to come back to the House with definitive remain at the forefront of the industry and are among responses to the different questions that have been the finest anywhere in the world, particularly the sector raised. Finally, parliamentary privilege is an old and that I represent—the Scottish cashmere industry in my important right, and it is one that we should guard constituency in the borders. We have some of the finest absolutely. and best-designed textiles to be seen anywhere. The cachet of Scottish cashmere is such that the knitwear from my constituency features in major designer collections year after year. That is not a recent phenomenon; it has happened for generations. In Hawick, Selkirk and Galashiels in my constituency, thousands of people’s livelihoods depend directly or indirectly on the success of the cashmere industry, and they are rightly proud of the heritage that it represents. They are also still confident about its future, and I share that confidence. Research carried out by Scottish Enterprise a couple of years ago highlighted that there are more than 40 companies in Scotland involved in cashmere, most of which operate internationally. They have about 4,000 direct employees, about 50 per cent. of whom are based in the borders. The textile sector generally, and the knitwear part of it on which I focus this afternoon, has had decades of the fiercest competition. We in the south of Scotland are not newcomers to the pressures of globalisation such as the supply of yarn from China, the increased manufacturing competition—albeit at a different end of the fashion scale—from China, and the fact that customers are based in all parts of the world. The industry has not hidden behind protection or looked for easy assistance in the past, but this sector and the group of companies within it are now under serious pressure, like so many other manufacturers across the United Kingdom. The companies that I am talking about have survived because they have continually exceeded their customers’ expectations, have reinvented their manufacturing processes and have achieved world-class service standards. If someone needs two jerseys to be knitted and in Manhattan by Friday, it is just about possible to have that done in the borders today and to 297WH Textile Industry21 OCTOBER 2009 Textile Industry 298WH have it there on time. Very few parts of the world can A third area of concern relates to skills, which are at offer that level of service, but my constituents and the the core of all those businesses. To witness the hand companies that I represent do that week in, week out. A stitchers, see the skills in the weaving sheds, as I have company does not get to be a fixture in Bond street in done countless times over the years, and see the years of London, or on Fifth avenue if it is behind the curve, and experience that go into finishing goods, is to realise the none of those companies is in that position. But—a but almost magical quality that is required, for example, in was inevitable—I have identified three major and specific understanding how much to wash a cashmere sweater areas of challenge in which I believe the Government before it is ready to take to the client. That might not should get involved and offer support. depend simply on training—perhaps there is something The first area is finance. Through no fault of their magical about it. Those skills are precious and need to own, many of those companies face the most serious be retained. Right now, when many companies are credit crunch that they have ever experienced. Often, struggling, the cost of training is a major issue for them. they are family companies that go back for generations, It is deeply unfortunate that, into that mix, the doubts that are used to managing their finances carefully and about the future of Skillfast-UK have come to the fore. used to the pressures that their product design cycle and The sector skills council responsible for the textile industry, customer payment habits have forced on them. Orders as is well documented, is now appealing against the are placed in spring, and companies begin to make up decision to disband it, although I am yet to find out orders later in the year, making huge investments in formally the outcome. The Minister wrote to one of my stock and wages over summer and into autumn. Then, constituents recently about that issue—I shall refer to the customer gets the goods, and it can be 90 or 120 days that letter in a moment—stating that he could not before the cash comes back. Cash is always at a premium announce anything. I wonder whether he will be in a for those businesses, but right now, as in so many areas better position to do so today. I am not picking up the of business, suppliers are shortening their terms of baton on behalf of Skillfast-UK, but I do want to know credit, and customers are extending theirs. what will happen if it no longer exists, because if it goes, Meanwhile, the banks have taken the opportunity what will replace it? Leaving the textile sector without provided by the recent chaos to introduce charges for that support will be a damaging decision in the industry’s things that nobody ever previously imagined they could hour of need. charge for. The reduction in competition has meant that The issue of skills has been raised by many Members the costs of banking finance have increased enormously, for many years with different Ministers. Alongside that, assuming that it can be obtained at all. That is a big I will mention two other issues: country of origin labelling issue with many banks. I hope that when the Minister and passing off. It is of great concern to my constituents responds, he will give specific examples of companies and the textile companies that the country of origin that are getting support through the various Government labelling is not adequate enough to allow us to show schemes. I have to tell him that my discussions with that the goods produced in my part of the country are senior figures in all the local companies that I represent produced in Scotland, or even in the UK. It is too easy have revealed a terrible mismatch between Government for others to pass off their goods as having been made policy and expectation about what the banks are doing, in Scotland, and that has been batted backwards and and the reality on the ground. The Government must forwards between us and Europe. look into that gap, find out what is going on and make the lending happen. I am looking this afternoon, as a minimum, for an assurance from the Minister that the Government will A second problem that I did not expect, which has vigorously continue to pursue that issue and take action become a huge issue for my local companies, concerns to ensure that the right powers are in place for trading the behaviour of energy suppliers. I have been staggered standards authorities and others to tackle passing off. to find, on more than three occasions in the past six To suggest that something is made in Scotland when it months, that energy suppliers—each time a different has been made several thousand miles away is clearly one—have been demanding huge security deposits from unacceptable. It is a fraud on my constituents who companies before agreeing to continue their supply of make the garments and on the customers, many of electricity or gas. I am talking about figures of tens of whom are from overseas and come to Scotland to buy thousands of pounds being imposed on companies that them. are not in a position to pay them. Those companies do not have poor track records on payment: they have In the summer I had a meeting with the Minister and honoured their bills and received their electricity and my constituent, Ken Pasternak, to whom the Minister gas reliably, without any issues. Again, there has been a has recently written. I would like to put on the record change in behaviour among the major players in the some of the issues Mr. Pasternak raised in his letter, in market, with tens of thousands of pounds being demanded particular the issue of export credit insurance, which, if and premium rates being charged. As if demanding a made available, would substantially help textile companies security deposit were not enough, advance payments by reducing some of the risk that the banks fear there is have also been demanded on many occasions. in manufacturing, particularly in textiles. I raised that, privately, with one of the energy Ministers, I am afraid that the Minister’s response did not go who has now moved to a different Department. He was down terribly well with Mr. Pasternak, who, as the sympathetic privately, and I would be interested to Minster will recall, is a gentleman of direct language—I know to what extent the Minister here today finds that will not repeat what he said when we spoke about the behaviour to be common across the country. If it is issue a few days ago. The suggestion that the Government news to him, I hope that he will urgently go back and are monitoring the situation cuts no ice with businesses insist that both his Department and Ofgem look at how that are struggling here and now, and I fear that some of those companies are behaving. them are in a fragile state and may suffer accordingly. 299WH Textile Industry21 OCTOBER 2009 Textile Industry 300WH

[Mr. Moore] While the sector is not as big as it once was, I fully accept that it is an important part of the UK’s Mr. Pasternak also highlighted the need to put ourselves manufacturing base. on a level playing field, particularly with regard to the For the Government and for me personally, support packages that have been made available to manufacturing is extremely important. We are still the Italian competitors. Again, that was brushed aside in sixth largest manufacturing country in the world. the Minister’s response, but I am afraid that I did not Manufacturing employs 3 million people directly in this see a strong argument for the decision to sidestep the country, contributes £150 billion to the economy and issue. If our main competitors within Europe are getting accounts for half of Britain’s exports. It is responsible that support, it is hard to argue that we should somehow for 75 per cent. of our business research and development. do without it. Mr. Pasternak also raised the issue of tax The textile industry is part of that industry and deserves credits for samples production and for innovation. I Government support. Of course, economic development apologise if I missed it, but I did not see much of a in Scotland is a devolved issue, and I understand that response to that in the Minister’s letter. the hon. Gentleman and representatives of the industry I hope that I have made clear how serious the problem in Scotland have ongoing contact with Scottish Ministers is. Yesterday, Lochcarron of Scotland announced the as well. I believe that John Swinney, the Cabinet Secretary closure of its knitwear operation in Hawick, putting 38 for Finance and Sustainable Growth, will be attending jobs at stake in my constituency. The management the Scottish textiles annual conference tomorrow. hope, as do I, that they will be able to get jobs for them The Scottish Government offer a wide range of support in Hawick, or certainly elsewhere in the sector, and that to the textiles industry through Scottish Enterprise, the business in Selkirk will continue profitably. That is a Highlands and Islands Enterprise, Scottish Development reminder that businesses are having to make tough International and Skills Development Scotland. It includes decisions right now and that things are very difficult innovation and investment grants such as regional selective indeed. I hope that the Minister has noticed that I have assistance grants and the Scottish Manufacturing Advisory not stood here and asked for lots of money this afternoon, Service, a resource that has recently been enhanced or for the Government to write big cheques. However, I significantly to ensure timely and specific company have asked them to exercise the powers that they already support for all manufacturing businesses, including those have and which they need to use more vigorously, and I in the textiles sector. hope that the Minister will do that. Those companies availing themselves of the Manufacturing Advisory Service, which has a track 4.26 pm record of providing practical advice to improve capabilities, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, efficiency and productivity, report real benefits from the Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): It is a pleasure to process. Indeed, Peter Scott & Co. Ltd, which is run by appear before you for the first time as a Minister, Mr. Ken Pasternak, to whom we have referred, is one of Mr. Gale. I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwickshire, the companies that has benefited from Scottish MAS Roxburgh and Selkirk (Mr. Moore) on securing the advice. I understand that after receiving advice, on-time debate. I would like to start by apologising formally to delivery improved from 52 per cent. to 91 per cent. in him for the delay in writing to Mr. Pasternak following just three months. the meeting we had in the summer; that was quite The Scottish Enterprise textiles team is working closely unacceptable. I was unaware that he had not been with the industry through the National Textiles Forum written to before, so I am sorry that the letter arrived and the industry steering group on a programme of with him only last week. activity to support the textiles industry through these The hon. Gentleman is a strong and powerful advocate challenging times. More widely, manufacturing will play for the textile industry, and I know the area he represents a key part in helping us to rebuild growth across the very well. He has eloquently set out the importance of UK. That is why we have specific help in place for the the industry to his constituency. Of course, the textile manufacturing sector. Our manufacturing strategy brings industry is an important part of Britain’s manufacturing together £150 million of support in the medium term, base. I fully take on board its importance and fully and will help business to access increased skills and recognise that times are very tough for it indeed, as they technology support, and to be successful in entering are for most industries at present. As with all industries, new and emerging markets. textile manufacturing in the UK is reinventing itself, I am conscious that many textiles companies are and the hon. Gentleman referred to the innovation of relatively small businesses. It is vital that small and the textile industry in his constituency and the way it medium-sized enterprises are helped during a period of has been able to change, developing from a cottage economic downturn, as their survival in the current industry at its inception hundreds of years ago and economic climate will be crucial to maintaining employment through the industrial revolution of the 19th and 20th and economic activity in the short term, and to providing centuries, which saw a massive textile industry develop growth as we look towards recovery. in the UK as a whole. Co-ordinated action is being taken by all relevant Although the industry has of course reduced in size Government Departments and agencies in providing in recent years as intense competition from Asia has hit real help for business now. Some of the different measures it hard, it has, as he described, moved up the value chain that the Government have introduced include securing and specialised in high-quality, niche products or high-tech legal commitments that will ensure that over the 12 months “technical textiles”. That is a journey that most UK from March 2009, the Royal Bank of Scotland and sectors in the globalised economy have made, moving Lloyds will lend, on a commercial basis and subject to up the chain and focusing on quality. That change is demand, an extra £27 billion to businesses. Barclays vital to the textile industry’s continued competitiveness. and HSBC have made an additional £6.5 billion of 301WH Textile Industry21 OCTOBER 2009 Textile Industry 302WH business lending commitments, and an enterprise finance companies. I availed myself of the service before I guarantee scheme that will secure up to £1.3 billion of became a Minister and have done so since. I have found additional bank loans to small firms with a turnover that its efforts have been greatly valued by many of the of up to £25 million has also been introduced. So far, companies that approached the Department. If the £880 million-worth of eligible applications from more hon. Gentleman is aware of any companies that wish to than 7,700 firms have either been granted or are being avail themselves of the service, he should by all means processed or assessed. bring them forward, and the Department will do its best The Government have also introduced a £75 million in those individual cases to make contact with the capital for enterprise fund—£50 million directly from banks and try to take matters forward. the Government, which is augmented by £25 million I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the point from the banks—to invest in small businesses that need that he made about energy companies, the deposit equity. So far, fund managers have made offers totalling scheme and up-front payments. The issue had not been more than £56.4 million to 37 businesses. brought to my attention before, but I am concerned by Yesterday, the UK Export Credit Guarantee Department what he said. I shall go straight back to the Department launched a letter-of-credit guarantee scheme to assist and look into it, liaise with other Ministers who may be UK exporters by boosting the availability of short-term aware of it and see what the regulator has to say about export finance. The new scheme should provide further it. The matter does cause me concern, and I am grateful help to UK exporters, particularly smaller companies to him for raising it. that export to emerging markets, which is where letters On Skillfast, I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. of credit are most used and where new opportunities Gentleman further information. Unfortunately, he received can be found. the letter from me only recently, as I said earlier. The Government have not at this stage reached a decision Over the past year, we have also been working to give on whether Skillfast should be offered a new licence to help to business to ensure that the UK’s productive base continue as a sector skills council, but I expect that comes through the recession. We are focused on how we Ministers will reach a decision soon. can rebuild growth and are looking at our strengths and capabilities to determine how we can position ourselves I have again taken on board the country-of-origin to grow in the long term. The central remit of the point that the hon. Gentleman raised, which has often Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is to been raised in this House in many different contexts. Of invest in growth and to help build for the future. Earlier course, because of the particular value and style of the in the year, we published our strategy in “New Industry, products we are discussing—textiles, particularly Scottish New Jobs”, which builds on new ideas to ensure that textiles—this is an important issue, and I assure him SMEs are able to grow when the upturn comes, and that I will do all I can to take the matter forward. It is makes the case for continued investment in innovation extremely important that a distinctive and great British and new technologies. product such as Scottish textiles should be protected fully and should not be undermined by the country-of-origin Turning to the specific points raised by the hon. problems or passing off that he described. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, I I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for putting his represent a manufacturing constituency myself, and case to me and for securing this debate. He raised many SMEs in my constituency have been encountering several issues, some of which I shall investigate further the kind of difficulty that he described. I am well aware because they affect businesses not just in his constituency of the disappointment, to put it mildly, that is felt in but right across the country. I am determined to do all I many parts of business and by many individual company can in my role to assist particular businesses and sectors. and business owners at the attitude of the banks and the I assure him that I regard the Scottish textile industry, line they have been taking. which is so firmly based in the borders, as an innovative The Department has a “help for business” team, industry with a great product. It is an industry that which has been dealing with many cases that MPs have exports around the world and an industry for the future, brought forward. The team has worked with banks to and the Government are determined to do what they try to resolve particular difficulties relating to specific can to continue to support it. 303WH 21 OCTOBER 2009 Fostering Services (Ofsted 304WH Supervision) Fostering Services (Ofsted Supervision) that authority, as far as she was concerned. The role of Warwickshire, which was also involved, was referred to the local government ombudsman, who ruled fully in 4.39 pm my constituent’s favour and, again, apologies were given to my constituent, and disparaging comments in the Mr. James Plaskitt (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): authority’s records were removed as a result of the I am grateful to have the opportunity, granted by ombudsman’s ruling. Those are examples of good outcomes, Mr. Speaker, to raise this matter, which is important to which should have flowed from the third-stage review, my constituent and to me. At issue, in essence, is the but the regulator—the third leg—carried on regardless conduct of successive regulatory bodies in respect of and did not heed the review’s recommendations. fostering and the fact that, early on in this case, as I will explain in a moment, regulators seemed to get off on During the process, the regulator became the Commission the wrong track and have simply not been able, for for Social Care Inspection, which was the next party in various reasons, to get back on track since. The impact this saga, and it was ultimately forced to review its of that is that my constituent, to whom I will refer as conduct in the matter only because I raised it in an Ms A throughout this debate to preserve her anonymity, earlier Adjournment debate, in September 2004. That has not been able to secure justice. She certainly does should have been the end of the matter, because it not have peace of mind and her livelihood, and that of should have brought about a resolution in respect of the her partner, as a foster carer is constantly in jeopardy as behaviour of the regulators, but it did not. Like the a result of the failings of regulators in the past and the agency, the CSCI, for reasons that I have never been inability of the present regulator to set things straight. able to fathom, also turned the tables on my constituent Although the issue has been long-running, it can be and, in the end, published a report that was critical of resolved and at the end of my comments I will say what her, not a report on itself. That report contained scores I think we can do to bring it to that conclusion. of inaccuracies and ignored evidence that had been submitted by my constituent. Let me give a brief history of this long-running matter. It starts in 2002 with the inappropriate placement My constituent saw the CSCI draft report before of a child by an agency working, at the time, with the publication and so did I. I told CSCI not to publish the local authority in Northamptonshire. I will not go into report until it had corrected all the inaccuracies it the details of the inappropriate placement, because the contained. I also told CSCI that it should only publish a Minister will have it on file. Attempts were made to deal report that was evidence-based. It ignored me and my with the issue in an entirely sensible, low-key way, constituent and published the report anyway. The report without engaging other organisations, but they did not is damning to my constituent’s reputation, which is why succeed. The Fostering Network recommended to my I am still pursuing the case. constituent that she should make a formal complaint Today, seven years on from the original incident, about what had happened, not just to remedy her own quite a lot of people involved in the early stages have situation but to try to ensure that similar things did not moved on and are not part of the story any more. The happen to other foster carers in the future, which was agency has morphed into another organisation and has reasonable. Indeed, at the time it was recommended almost disappeared from view. But what remains today that the services of a mediator should be engaged. are inaccurate, disparaging comments about my constituent The agency in question acted aggressively to that littered throughout the reference files of local authorities approach and instead of trying to resolve the matter it who commission fostering, and of the regulator—often decided to set out on a review of my constituent’s placed there by the regulatory bodies and by others who registration as a foster carer. That meant, in the end, have not listened, not read and not absorbed the evidence that the matter was referred to the National Care Standards given by my constituent and who have still, to this day, Commission, the regulator for fostering services at that not heeded the recommendations of the third-stage time, which initiated some investigations. The first two review. investigations were poorly done and I advised my I have recently turned to Ofsted, which is now the constituent to go for a final, third-stage review, which third regulator that I have dealt with, to try to get a she did. That review fully upheld her complaint. I emphasise resolution. I was initially encouraged, because Ofsted “fully”, because that is important. The review criticised sent officials to visit my constituent at her home. They the agency and suggested that its fitness to operate spent a long time with her and went over all the case should be reviewed—not the fitness of my constituent history in great detail. I have seen a video version of the foster carer, but the fitness of the agency that made that encounter and know how thorough the officials the mistake—and called on the NCSC to remedy its were. They were sympathetic and took away a list of procedures, which had also let my constituent down. things to work on so I thought that finally we were The mediator performed a strange role. He wrote getting to where we needed to be to resolve the matter. reports about my constituent, despite the fact that he Ofsted’s meeting with my constituent took place in had never met her. Furthermore, he turned out to be January. Months passed and we heard nothing, so I working for the agency and was, in fact, trying to help decided in May to contact Ofsted to find out what was the agency secure its own ongoing registration. I do not going on. I asked if it was following up the matters that believe that the mediator brought in to deal with the it had agreed, with my constituent, to pursue. I asked case ever had an objective view of what was going on. what was the conclusion of its study of the transitional We had some positive responses from the third-stage orders, which it said that it would look at to see how it review, as we expected. Northamptonshire, the authority could pick up the case, which previously was not Ofsted’s—it involved in the initial mistake, issued my constituent a was with other regulators. I also asked, “How are you full apology and that was the end of the matter with getting on working with local authorities and others to 305WH Fostering Services (Ofsted 21 OCTOBER 2009 Fostering Services (Ofsted 306WH Supervision) Supervision) cleanse records of documents that should not be there, be an extremely satisfactory outcome for her, it would because they are inaccurate and unfair to my constituent?” help to restore confidence in the role of regulators on I asked it to do those three things. whom all foster carers, at some point, may come to rely. I eventually received a response on 2 July from Christine Gilbert, the chief inspector, which I have to say is 4.52 pm inadequate. It says: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, “We— Schools and Families (Mr. Iain Wright): I welcome you Ofsted— to the Chair, Mr. Gale. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. “decided that it was not appropriate for us to take any action because CSCI had completed their investigation into her I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick concerns…and there was nothing new in the information that we and Leamington (Mr. Plaskitt) on securing this important received.” debate. He has campaigned on the matter for some That is completely irrelevant. Of course, there is no new time, and it is a reflection of his diligence, professionalism information, because we are trying to resolve an issue and commitment that he has pursued it in the House for that now has some history. To come back after all that many years. He referred to his Adjournment debate on and say that there is no new information totally misses the matter in September 2004, and it is a credit to him the point about why we are asking Ofsted to try to that he is still pursuing the case on behalf of his resolve this long-standing issue. constituent. The letter from Christine Gilbert also declares that Like my hon. Friend, the Government recognise the Ofsted has no powers to order the correction of personal critical role that foster carers, youth workers and many information held by other organisations. It suggests others play in giving children the emotional support instead that my constituent goes to the Information and resilience that they need to succeed, and the security Commissioner and the Information Tribunal. Ofsted and continuity that they will come to rely on as they knows that we have tried that route, so to come back grow up. Our starting point, and the fundamental principle and suggest it again is, frankly, irrelevant. I understand that we must address, is that every child should be that the Information Commissioner’s office does not brought up in safety with the opportunity to succeed to have the power to tell local authorities to remove documents the very best of their ability, at the same time recognising or amend them. It has the power to discover them and that we often rely on achieving that principle and objective to publish them, but not to do what we need. I am through the incredible support and dedication of foster afraid that the response has not been adequate. carers such as my hon. Friend’s constituent. My constituent is a foster carer of impeccable character. We can always do more, and we must not be complacent. She has been persistent and determined in pursuing a Complacency should never be allowed to creep in, remedy, and I know that has rubbed some people up the especially in relation to looking after vulnerable children wrong way, but why should she not be persistent and and providing support and help to the foster families determined when she is still the victim of injustice? She who help us to achieve that. I am acutely aware of that, has constantly been let down by organisations that we and the case that my hon. Friend raises only emphasises thought were supposed to help, resulting in her livelihood the importance of getting things right first time, every as a foster carer remaining in jeopardy. As I said to my time. He is absolutely correct to highlight the fact that hon. Friend the Minister, the matter can be resolved, foster carers should be given full and frank details of and that requires three things, which I hope the Minister the children who are admitted to their care. He will be agrees can be done. aware, as I am, of the disappointing results of the Fostering Network survey, which found that only about First, Ofsted should forget about the letter that it sent half of foster carers reported that they were given the me, look again at all the evidence that it has, and issue information that they needed to look after children in an apology to my constituent for its response and the their care safely. That was, in essence, the starting point inadequacy of its predecessor organisations. Secondly, I of my hon. Friend’s constituent’s concerns. really believe that Ofsted is capable of working with the The situation was not acceptable and the Fostering local authorities involved to help them to remove from Network survey’s findings are not acceptable. I cannot their records the documents that should not be there excuse that, and I want the problems to be improved. because they are wrong, inaccurate, unfair to my constituent, That is why we issued a letter to all directors of children’s and contain information that the third-stage report services, and chief executives, making clear the importance shows is not correct. What should remain on record are of sharing with foster carers information about children statements that are factual and evidence-based. What placed with them. As my hon. Friend knows, the letter should not be on anyone’s record is the opinion of an stresses the point that foster carers should be provided interested party who decided to take on my constituent with sufficient information about the child’s needs. That rather than remedying the wrong. Thirdly and finally, I should be in addition to relevant information about the believe that Ofsted has the power to interview and child’s previous history, behaviour and experiences to intervene with the key individuals who are still, to this ensure that the foster carers can best meet the child’s day, commenting on the matter, and to encourage them assessed needs and to keep the foster child and others not to do so and not to repeat opinion, but to rely only living in the same household safe from harm. I know on fact. Ofsted has the power to do all those things. that that is a particular concern for my hon. Friend. The My constituent’s seven-year nightmare—she is a information should be provided to the foster carer committed, professional foster carer—could be brought before the child is placed or, in the case of an emergency close to an end today if my hon. Friend the Minister placement when all the information may not be immediately would agree to those three things. Not only would that available, as soon as practicable. 307WH Fostering Services (Ofsted 21 OCTOBER 2009 Fostering Services (Ofsted 308WH Supervision) Supervision) [Mr. Iain Wright] behalf of Ofsted. That must be a decision for Her Majesty’s chief inspector. However, if it would help—I My hon. Friend in his professional way mentioned hope that it does, as I respect my hon. Friend a great three issues, and I shall address them in turn. He asked deal for bringing the case to the House again—I undertake whether it is acceptable for Ofsted to have a year zero to ask Ofsted to respond to the serious issues that he approach, and about Ofsted issuing an apology on raised today and to make the inspector’s reply available behalf of previous regulators. He asked about the removal to him. of data concerning his constituent and anything that One of the key factors that has emerged from the disparages her reputation, which is incredibly important 2004 debate and today’s debate is what Ofsted is doing to her as a professional foster carer, and he also asked to improve inspections to ensure that such things do not about Ofsted investigating people who are still happen again. misrepresenting the case and offering opinion rather than empirical evidence. I shall deal with each in turn. Mr. Plaskitt: Before my hon. Friend moves on—has On Ofsted taking a year zero approach to such cases, he moved on from the cleansing of the records?—I will when it took over responsibility for regulating independent return to the subject. From what he has said, it remains fostering agencies from CSCI, it was agreed that when the case that documentation is being accessed by local an investigation into a registered provision or any authorities that are considering fostering placements enforcement action was ongoing at the time of transfer, that refers to my constituent, and it contains statements Ofsted would take over the case. It was also agreed that and comments about her that are untrue and unfounded in the case of a complaint about action taken by the and are clearly contradicted by the outcome of the previous regulator it would retain responsibility for third-stage review. I hope the Minister shares my concern concluding any investigation. I assure my hon. Friend that it is not fair or just to my constituent for that to that there was never any prospect of Ofsted washing its continue. How can we ensure that those records are hands of ongoing cases. His comments today demonstrate cleansed of statements that should not be there? How that Ofsted had a productive meeting with him and his can we ensure that the records that relate to this case are constituent. I know that he is disappointed by the letter purely factual? that he received from the inspector, but my understanding is that Ofsted decided that it was not appropriate to Mr. Wright: I reassure my hon. Friend that I had not take action. moved on. We are dealing with important matters to do CSCI had completed its investigation into Happen with data and information. Fostercare some time before the transfer and crucially—this My hon. Friend mentioned a number of times the is a key point—there had been an independent third-stage need to cleanse data files from a variety of sources. I review, to which my hon. Friend referred. I understand have made inquiries, and I am assured by Ofsted that it that the review was conducted by Judy Downey and does not hold any information that places his constituent’s concluded in March 2004. I have read the Hansard livelihood in jeopardy. As for the important point about report of my hon. Friend’s previous Adjournment debate local authorities, I am confident that it is outwith on the matter, when my hon. Friend spoke very strongly. Ofsted’s remit. The advice that my hon. Friend has been I understand that the detailed report reached some given about the Information Commissioner seems important conclusions—I think that was the phrase he appropriate. I can check that again and I would be used—not least of which was a vindication of his happy to correspond with my hon. Friend on the matter, constituent, particularly her reputation. That is important. but Ofsted has no power to instruct local authorities to A large file of information—my hon. Friend alluded cleanse their records of data. That would be a matter to it today—was provided to Ofsted in May 2007. I am for the commissioner. Again, if my hon. Friend wishes told that Ofsted looked at that carefully to see whether it, I would be more than happy to consider the matter an investigation could be carried out, but its decision one more time, but I am confident that that is appropriate. was that such an investigation should not be opened. At the time, Happen Fostercare had been sold to Fostering Mr. Plaskitt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Solutions, and the individuals about whom my hon. indulging me. Ofsted may not have the power to instruct Friend’s constituent had concerns were no longer connected local authorities, but how would my hon. Friend feel with the company. about writing to local authorities requesting that they My hon. Friend mentioned that last year Ofsted was take a look at their records on this case? approached with concerns about incorrect statements being made about the outcome of the CSCI investigation Mr. Wright: I am keen to do anything I can to help into his constituent’s complaint being published on the my hon. Friend and his constituent with what must be Happen Fostercare website and circulated to local an incredibly distressing matter. My interpretation of authorities. I am told that Ofsted visited my hon. Friend’s the facts, after discussion with my hon. Friend and constituent and explained the limits of its powers. having read the previous Adjournment debate, is that I understand that following the visit, Ofsted reviewed the local authorities concerned seem willing to help in the matter and again concluded that nothing in its remit whatever way they can. If it would help, I can try to see allowed it to investigate Happen Fostercare, particularly— whether that is possible. However, as a result of the this is an important point—as the agency had been sold powers given to Ofsted by the House and Parliament, I to Fostering Solutions. believe that it would be more appropriate to go through My hon. Friend asked whether Ofsted should issue the Information Commissioner. an apology, a question that was raised in the Adjournment On a similar note, my hon. Friend said that individuals debate in 2004 and again, most eloquently, this afternoon. are still misrepresenting the case. Again, I reiterate that, He will appreciate that it is not for me to apologise on as set down by the House and the other place, Ofsted 309WH Fostering Services (Ofsted 21 OCTOBER 2009 Fostering Services (Ofsted 310WH Supervision) Supervision) does not have the remit to investigate individuals who We have done much to support them, as I outlined are not part of registered and regulated provisions. earlier, and wish to continue working with stakeholders Only if a setting is registered can it investigate in order to determine what more we can do to help in the local to establish compliance with national minimum standards recruitment of foster carers. As my hon. Friend pointed and regulations. I reiterate the point about raising concerns out, if we are to attract people into foster caring and on personal data with the Information Commissioner, retain our existing foster carers, we need to make sure which is an appropriate response, but I am more than that they receive the right support. happy to reconsider the matter. The White Paper “Care Matters” set out our plans We want to move forward and try to ensure that for improving the training of and support available to everything is right first time and every time—an important foster carers. We must continue to do everything in our principle. I mentioned the quality of Ofsted inspections power to build on that good work, in order to ensure and improving the inspection regime. Ofsted now reports that foster carers feel valued and appreciated for the on the outcomes for children and young people, making incredible work that they do, so that young people them more child-focused. It issues additional guidance everywhere have the same opportunities and rights to to inspectors to ensure that they use the same criteria enjoy their childhood in safety. when making inspection judgments. It is also increasing I applaud my hon. Friend for what he is doing on the accessibility of its pre-inspection questionnaires, so behalf of his constituent, but I fully agree with him that that they are clearer, easier to use and available in this issue has taken far too long to resolve. I shall do all symbols, which enables a wider range of children to in my power under the regulatory regime provided by express their views. this place to ensure that my hon. Friend’s constituent In addition, I am aware that further work is under can find closure on the matter, ensuring that her reputation way to improve the inspection framework for fostering as a foster carer and a professional is not besmirched. services. My Department is helping by consulting on I shall do all I can to work with my hon. Friend to the revised national minimum standards, which are ensure that that happens. Again, I congratulate him on more focused on outcomes for children; they are also securing this debate. Hopefully, but after far too long, clear about the need to share information with foster we can seek resolution. carers that relates to children’s backgrounds. Question put and agreed to. As I have outlined, the Government place huge value on the army of good foster carers, who do so much to 5.7 pm improve young lives and to inspire and safeguard children. Sitting adjourned.

55WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

England and Wales on Sunday 27 March 2011 has, Written Ministerial today, been laid before Parliament. This Order specifies the persons by whom, and with respect to whom, returns Statements are to be made and the topics on which questions are to be asked, and gives effect to the United Kingdom statistics authority’s proposals which were set out in the Wednesday 21 October 2009 Government’s White Paper, “Helping to shape tomorrow”, in December 2008. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY The Census is the most important source of demographic REFORM and social statistics available in the UK today. It provides the underlying information needed to inform a wide Better Regulation range of policy debates and is used extensively to plan services and allocate funds to local areas. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): The Government The design for the new Census, as set out in the White have today published a report on the Benefit-cost Ratio Paper, builds upon the experience gained by the Office of New Regulations Introduced in the Financial Year for National Statistics (ONS) from previous censuses 2008-09. and, in particular, from the lessons learned from the 2001 Census. The design takes account of the several The report shows that the benefits of new regulations formal recommendations from the Treasury Select enacted in the last financial year outweighed the costs Committee, the Public Accounts Committee and the by £9 billion, at a ratio of nearly 2 to 1 and confirms the former Statistics Commission. It also reflects the concerns Government’s commitment to strengthening regulatory more recently expressed by the Treasury Sub-Committee management. and others about the quality of national and local The figures, published as part of a new benefit—cost population statistics generally. ratio, showed that overall quantifiable benefits exceeded costs by about 80 per cent., meaning that Government Consequently, a number of major changes are proposed regulation is expected to deliver £1.85 in yearly benefits in the design for 2011 compared with previous censuses. for every £1 of cost, or a ratio of 1.85 to 1. The publication of the ratio, covering the 2008-09 legislative Census forms will be delivered to households by post in the programme, is a world-first and will be published annually majority of cases. in the future. There will be the facility to return the completed information The Pensions Act 2008, aimed at enabling and online. encouraging more people to build up a private pension income to supplement the money received from their A central address register is being developed to facilitate improved form delivery and field management. basic state pension, is an exceptional piece of legislation, with the highest benefits and costs in 2008-09, which Tighter control of the field operation and the targeting of has a significant effect on the overall ratio. If removed non-response follow-up will be facilitated by closer monitoring from the ratio, the benefit to cost ratio would increase of the delivery of forms and receipt of returns through a to4to1. questionnaire tracking system. The benefit-cost ratio is drawn from the detailed The recruitment, training and payment of field staff will be assessments of the impact of new regulation produced outsourced to specialist service providers. by Government Departments and regulators. All Departments and regulators that introduce new regulation The topics proposed for the 2011 Census are set out that has a significant cost or benefit must produce a full in the Draft Order, and cover those issues where information impact assessment which is published in an online library. is most needed by the major users of census information. The Government are fully committed to ensuring The questions have been devised to produce reliable and that all new regulation is justified and proportionate accurate data. ONS has carried out extensive consultations and that the benefits outweigh the costs. It builds on and testing over a number of years to ensure that the commitments to increase transparency and accountability, questions are justified, both in terms of the need for the following on from the publication of the Government’s information and public acceptability. regulatory programme. New questions are proposed on: national identity; Regulation provides essential protections to employees, citizenship; second residences; language; civil partnership employers and citizens. Striking the right balance between status; date of entry into the UK and length of intended costs and benefits is vital to make sure the regulatory stay (for non-UK born); type of central heating; and framework is fit for the 21st century. number of bedrooms. A copy of the report is being placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Copies of the 2011 Census questionnaire will be included as part of the Census regulations to be made CABINET OFFICE early in 2010 following the Census Order. Following devolution, separate legislative arrangements Draft Census (England and Wales) Order 2009 will be made in Scotland and Northern Ireland for the censuses there. However, the Census date proposed is The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. common throughout the UK in order to maximise Smith): The Draft Census (England and Wales) Order comparability, to minimise costs, and reduce public 2009 in Council providing for a census to be taken in confusion. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

TREASURY Double tax relief: Manufactured Overseas Dividends HMRC has been notified that some companies are using manufactured overseas dividends (MODs) instead Anti-avoidance of real overseas dividends in order to disapply the anti-avoidance rules in the DTR legislation. To counter this, legislation will be introduced amending The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen the relevant DTR anti-avoidance provision so that it Timms): It is right that all taxpayers pay their fair share applies to deemed overseas tax deducted from MODs in of tax. However, there are a minority who continue to the same way that it applies to real overseas dividends. seek ways to avoid paying their share. This is unacceptable. The amendment will ensure that the provision can also It is unfair on the majority of taxpayers, undermines apply in other circumstances where the UK Tax Acts fiscal sustainability, and reduces funding for public treat an amount that is not overseas tax as if it were services. This Government will not tolerate tax avoidance overseas tax. These changes will prevent credits for or tax evasion in any form, and will act promptly to notional overseas tax from being treated more favourably tackle both of these. than tax credits on real dividends. The legislation will Several tax avoidance schemes have been notified to have effect from today. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) exploiting the A technical note setting out the details of this measure sideways loss relief and double tax relief (DTR) rules, will be issued on HMRC’s website today, with draft so I am today announcing changes to be made to legislation to follow shortly. legislation, with immediate effect, to counter these schemes. Double tax relief: Manufactured Interest Sideways loss relief HMRC has been notified that UK manufactured As made clear by the Paymaster General in her interest payments are being used to avoid tax under the written statement on 2 March 2007, Official Report, rules relating to controlled foreign companies (CFCs) column 105WS and the introduction of anti-avoidance by artificial generation of DTR. legislation in subsequent Finance Acts, the Government To counter this, regulations, coming into force today, will not tolerate avoidance schemes designed to exploit will be made repealing rules that deem companies to sideways loss relief rules. The Government have recently have received UK manufactured interest under deduction become aware of a contrived and aggressive avoidance of tax. Instead, the recipient will simply be taxed on the scheme that seeks to generate losses in a professional amount of manufactured interest it receives with no partnership for offset by users of the scheme against relief for any notional tax credit. their other income or capital gains by way of sideways HMRC has identified a provision in separate regulations loss relief. This scheme relies on the creation of losses dealing with MODs that would allow substantially the through a series of arrangements that are established same scheme to be implemented using MODs. To prevent for the purposes of tax avoidance. this, regulations coming into force today will also be The Government do not accept that these arrangements made ensuring that the MOD rules cannot be used to have the effect that is sought, but to remove any doubt, claim relief for overseas tax in inappropriate circumstances. and to prevent scheme providers continuing to devise Instead, the recipient will be taxed on the amount of the and operate even more contrived schemes that seek to MOD it receives with no relief for any notional tax challenge the sideways loss relief rules, I am announcing credit. prompt and decisive action to protect the Exchequer. Both sets of regulations will be available on HMRC’s With effect from today a general rule will be introduced website today. to prevent sideways loss relief being given where the loss arises from arrangements and a main purpose of the arrangements is to obtain a tax reduction by means of ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE sideways loss relief. This test does not impact on genuine loss-makers who have not entered into avoidance Departmental (Correction) arrangements. Legislation will be introduced in next year’s Finance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Bill. Full details of this measure including draft legislation and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I would like will be issued on HMRC’s website today. to inform the House that a written answer I gave on Double tax relief: Unauthorised Unit Trusts 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 445W to the HMRC has been notified that unauthorised unit hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) was incorrect. trusts are being used to avoid restrictions on double tax It should not have included reference to the figures relief and to generate “repayments” of tax that the UK including services claims made under Chronic Obstructive Exchequer has not received. To counter this, legislation Pulmonary Disease and Vibration White Finger schemes. will be introduced with the effect that to the extent any The number of coal health claims that were eligible distribution treated as paid by a unauthorised unit trust for a Vibration White Finger services claim is shown in is paid out of overseas income on which UK tax has the table below. been reduced by DTR, the distribution will be treated We are unable to provide the number of Chronic by the recipient as overseas income under deduction of Obstructive Pulmonary Disease claims that were eligible overseas tax. The legislation will have effect from today. for a services claim as these figures are included within A technical note setting out the details of this measure the schedule 11 calculations under the terms of the will be issued on HMRC’s website today, with draft Claims Handling Agreement, and it is not possible to legislation to follow shortly. isolate them. 59WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS

Claim eligible for Claim eligible for services Claimants’ Representatives Location Number of claims services that have been settled

Ashton Morton Slack LLP AMS (UDM claims only) 500 260 254 Ashton Morton Slack LLP Sheffield 3 2 2 Atherton and Godfrey Doncaster 1 0 0 Solicitors Atteys Retford 136 105 103 Atteys Rotherham 46 41 41 Avalon Solicitors (ceased Warrington 5 1 1 trading) Bakewells Derby 1 0 0 Banner Jones Chesterfield 3 3 3 Barber Cartain Solicitors Manchester 1 0 0 (ceased trading) Bell Dallman and Co. Doncaster 4 4 4 Beresfords Solicitors Doncaster 158 73 73 Beresfords Solicitors Doncaster (UDM only) 569 247 243 BHP Law Belmont 8 7 7 Branton Bridge Manchester 4 4 4 BRM Solicitors Chesterfield (UDM claims 11 1 only) Browell Smith and Co. Newcastle upon Tyne 34 22 21 BurroughsDay Solicitors Bristol 3 2 2 Colemans Solicitors Manchester 6 2 2 Corries York York 13 6 6 Davis Blank Furniss Hadfield 1 0 0 Davis Blank Furniss Manchester 4 4 4 Dean Thomas and Co. Worksop 3 1 1 Solicitors Farleys Solicitors Burnley 4 2 2 Flint Bishop and Barnett Derby 1 0 0 Solicitors Foy and Co. — 1 1 1 Foys Solicitors Worksop 43 36 35 Gorman Hamilton Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 8 8 8 Gorvin Smith Fort Solicitors Stockport 9 6 6 Grainger Appleyard and Doncaster 1 1 1 Fleming Graysons Solicitors Sheffield 610 462 452 Hamers Solicitors Hull 1 1 1 Hickmotts Solicitors Rotherham 23 16 16 Holmes and Hills Solicitors Great Dunmow 1 0 0 Hopkins Eden Court, Mansfield 97 84 84 Hopkins Mansfield 1 1 1 Hopkins — 4 1 1 Hugh James Cardiff 3 3 3 Ilett and Clark Solicitors Nottingham 4 3 3 Ingrams Solicitors Hessle (VWF only) 3 2 2 Irwin Mitchell Solicitors Sheffield 98 77 77 Keeble Hawson Doncaster 39 32 31 Keeble Hawson Moorhouse Sheffield 67 46 46 Kenyon Son and Craddock 32 South Parade 1 1 1 Kidd and Spoor Harper Newcastle upon Tyne 163 113 110 Solicitors Kingslegal Cardiff 1 0 0 Lloyd Green Solicitors Glasgow (UDM only) 1 0 0 Lopian Wagner Solicitors Manchester 4 0 0 Mark Gilbert Morse Newcastle upon Tyne 3 2 2 Marrons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 1 0 0 McArdles Solicitors Hartlepool 3 0 0 Meloy Whittle Robinson Preston 10 4 4 Mincoffs Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 3 2 2 Morrish and Co. Solicitors Leeds 4 3 3 Mortons Solicitors Sunderland 12 1 1 61WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS

Claim eligible for Claim eligible for services Claimants’ Representatives Location Number of claims services that have been settled

Moss Solicitors Loughborough 13 9 9 Moss Solicitors Moss UDM Claims Only 501 263 252 O. H. Parsons and Partners London 199 161 159 Solicitors Oxley and Coward Solicitors Rotherham 37 32 32 Pannone and Partners Manchester 4 3 3 Solicitors Parker Rhodes Solicitors Rotherham 1 1 1 Pinto Potts Solicitors Aldershot 1 0 0 Raleys Solicitors Barnsley 239 168 167 Richard J. Knaggs and Co. Redcar 2 2 2 Robinson and Murphy Newcastle 1 1 1 Solicitors Robinson King Solicitors Stockport 19 19 19 (ceased trading) Russell Jones and Walker Sheffield 2 2 2 Solicitors Saffmans Solicitors Leeds 9 6 5 Sedgwick Phelan and Middleton, Manchester 1 1 1 Partners Shaw and Co. Solicitors Doncaster 16 11 11 Shaw and Co. Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 4 2 2 Simpson Millar Solicitors Leeds 3 3 3 Stanton Croft Estate Agents Newcastle upon Tyne 2 0 0 and Solicitors Stuart Bell and Associates Worksop 143 112 112 The Quigley Partnership Bolton (do not use) 1 1 0 (ceased trading) The Smith Partnership Derby 1 0 0 Thompsons Solicitors Manchester 2 2 1 Thompsons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 26 22 22 Thompsons Solicitors Nottingham 1 0 0 Thornleys Huddersfield 2 1 1 TLW Solicitors North Shields 29 10 10 Towells Solicitors Wakefield 49 31 29 Tracey Barlow Furniss and Retford 1 1 1 Co. Tracey Barlow Furniss and Worksop 9 3 3 Co. Twigg Farnell Solicitors Rotherham 4 4 4 (ceased trading) Union of Democratic Mansfield 1,009 698 693 Mineworkers Wake Smith and Tofields Sheffield 6 3 3 Solicitors Walker and Co. Solicitors. Rotherham 1 1 0 Watson and Brown Solicitors South Shields 1 0 0 Watson Burton LLP Newcastle upon Tyne 131 114 113 Total 5,198 3,380 3,326

HOME DEPARTMENT to increase transparency and maintain and improve public confidence in the oversight, management and operations of the NDNAD. National DNA Database

JUSTICE The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Alan Campbell): I have today Family Legal Aid placed the National DNA Database (NDNAD) annual report for 2007-08 and 2008-09 in the Library of both Houses. The Government accept the need for ongoing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice accountability to the public on the operation of the (Bridget Prentice): My noble Friend the Parliamentary NDNAD. The NDNAD annual report, which publishes Under-Secretary of State for Justice, Lord Bach, has details of its activities, is an important part of the aim made the following written ministerial statement: 63WS Written Ministerial Statements21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS

On 20 July 2009, Official Report, column WS156, I tabled a independent social work from scope in private law cases but will written ministerial statement in respect of our earlier consultation continue to work with Cafcass to determine the best way to use paper, “Family Legal Aid Funding from 2010”, published by the our mutual resources for the benefit of vulnerable children. Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and the Legal Services Commission I am now satisfied that the new fee schemes are based on (LSC) which set out proposals for legal aid payments for family robust data and accurate modelling, and that the final scheme work to apply from 2010. allows us to achieve a reasonable balance between complexity and value for money. Although I remained convinced that it is right to proceed with a harmonised family advocacy scheme, I asked my officials to The new fee schemes direct more money into public law cases undertake further analysis of the assumptions that underpin the to ensure that children and adults at risk of abuse take the highest modelling of the fee schemes, to ensure the accuracy of that priority for legal services. The fee schemes do not represent cuts modelling. This additional work was necessary as there had been to the family legal, aid budget or to the services received by some significant changes made to our original consultation proposals children and families, but some funding will be moved from following detailed discussion with stakeholders about the structure barristers to solicitor advocates, as barristers and solicitor advocates of both the advocacy and representation schemes. will now receive the same fees for the same advocacy work. The fee schemes have been designed to be cost-neutral against 2007-08 In particular, we have introduced more graduation into the fee average case costs. scheme structure to ensure that those advocates who take on the The LSC will shortly publish the response document and more difficult and complicated cases are fairly rewarded. In impact assessment on their website and the new schemes will be addition, I decided not to proceed with our proposal to remove introduced with the new civil contracts in October 2010.

1439W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1440W Written Answers to Gun Sports: Finance Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Questions Media and Sport how much funding Sport England has provided for training of (a) pistol shooters and (b) shooters of other weapons in the last 12 months. Wednesday 21 October 2009 [294717] Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England advise that over the past 12 months they have awarded the English Target Shooting ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Federation (ETSF) £194,726 in funding. This funding forms part of a wider £343,000 award made to the Elections: Investigations ETSF in 2007 to support the English shooting team at the 2010 Commonwealth Games. Mr. Pickles: To ask the hon. Member for South West The award is paid over three years from 2007 until Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the 2010 and relates to the rifle, pistol, shotgun and full Electoral Commission what the average length of an bore disciplines. It supports coaching, sport science investigation by the Electoral Commission has been training camps, athlete personal awards, warm weather since the Commission’s establishment. [294338] training and general support costs. The proportion of the award that is used to fund Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me pistol shooting is an issue which is determined by the that in April 2008, it introduced a three stage approach ETSF rather than Sport England. to handling potential breaches of the party and election finance laws. First, it conducts an initial assessment Licensing Act 2003 using set criteria to determine whether the matter should become casework. Second, the vast majority of matters Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, that become casework are dealt with as ‘case reviews’. Media and Sport (1) if he will consider the introduction Finally, a small number of cases, where the matter is of a more flexible time limit for the granting of temporary more complex, or may involve the use of statutory event notices under the Licensing Act 2003; [294470] powers, are dealt with as ‘investigations’. (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Between 1 April 2008 and 16 October 2009, the voluntary organisations which did not submit temporary Commission assessed 155 potential cases. Over that event notice applications under the Licensing Act 2003 period, initial assessments were completed in an average within the 10 day time limit in the last 12 month period of 11 days against a seven day target. The Commission for which figures are available; [294471] has met the seven day target for matters assessed since (3) if he will consider the merits of amending the July 2009. It also conducted 49 case reviews, which were Licensing Act 2003 to allow a temporary event notice completed in an average of 69 days against a target of to be granted when the required period of notice has 90 days. The Commission undertook two investigations, not been given, subject to terms and conditions. which averaged 386 days, against a target of completing [294472] 90 per cent. of investigations within 180 days. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is indeed willing to consider the introduction of some flexibility on the period of notice required for a CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT temporary event notice (TEN) under the Licensing Act 2003. We are currently developing a proposal, in discussion Departmental Visits Abroad with a group of stakeholders, that would give the police discretion to validate a TEN for an event that they David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for consider to be low-risk when that TEN was otherwise Culture, Media and Sport how much his Department invalid because it was issued without the minimum has spent on overnight accommodation for (a) notice. We hope to commence a three-month consultation Ministers and (b) officials while overseas in each of the on this proposal, along with other simplification proposals, before the end of the year. last three years. [294687] We do not hold figures on the number of voluntary Mr. Sutcliffe: All travel is conducted in accordance organisations that did not submit TENs within the with the requirements of the Ministerial Code, Travel 10 day time limit. However, the consultation will include by Ministers and the Civil Service Management Code. an impact assessment containing a broad estimate of the number of events that may be affected by the Expenditure on hotel and other privately provided proposed change, and the estimated economic impact. accommodation is not held separately or by categories The consultation will invite comment on these estimates. requested on the Department’s accounting system. This information can be obtained only at disproportionate National Lottery: Expenditure cost. Information relating to overseas travel by Ministers is Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, published on an annual basis by the Cabinet Office. It Media and Sport how much each of the National can be found at the following web link: Lottery distributors spent on (a) surveys and (b) http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ Government relations in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08 and ministers/travel_gifts.aspx (c) 2008-09. [294733] 1441W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1442W

Mr. Simon: The information requested is not held Sir Stuart Bell: This portfolio contains 4,089 acres, centrally, and to collect this would be at disproportionate all in the UK. cost. Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, National Lottery: Manpower representing the Church Commissioners what acreage of land has comprised the Church Commissioners’ Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, strategic land portfolio in each of the last five years. Media and Sport how many full-time equivalent staff [294164] each National Lottery distributor employs. [294734] Sir Stuart Bell: The strategic portfolio has only been Mr. Simon: Staff numbers are provided in each split from the rural portfolio over the past two years. It Distributor’s Annual Report and Accounts, copies of comprised 3,287 acres at the end of 2007 and 3,640 which are available in the Libraries of the House. acres at the end of 2008. Olympic Games: Gun Sports Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners how much of Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Church Commissioners’ assets were held in their Culture, Media and Sport whether there are plans to strategic land portfolio (a) in the UK and (b) overseas allow the British Olympic shooting team to train at in each of the last five years. [294166] Bisley. [294718]

Mr. Sutcliffe: Bisley has been identified by London Sir Stuart Bell: 2.5 per cent. at the end of 2007 and Organising Committee of the Olympic Games as a 1.8 per cent. at the end of 2008, all in the UK. pre-games training camp for London 2012 shooting and is already used by the British shooting squad in the Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, rifle and shotgun disciplines. Decisions on the British representing the Church Commissioners what the policy Olympic shooting team will not take place until a few of the Church Commissioners is on the use of land months before the London 2012 games and their use of which is owned by them for the production of food. the facilities at Bisley will be determined by the national [294170] governing body of the sport. Sir Stuart Bell: The Commissioners’ farm land is let Party Conferences to tenants on Agricultural Holdings Act Tenancies and Farm Business Tenancies. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many of his Department’s Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, sponsored bodies attended party political conferences representing the Church Commissioners how many acres in 2009; and how much they spent at the (a) Liberal of the Church Commissioners’ rural let land portfolio Democrat, (b) Labour and (c) Conservative party has been transferred to their rural strategic land portfolio conferences. [292948] in each of the last five years. [294171]

Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 14 October 2009]: This Sir Stuart Bell: 349 acres were transferred in 2008 information is not held centrally and to provide it and 514 acres have been transferred in 2009. would incur disproportionate cost. Sports: Public Participation Publications

Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, Media and Sport how much his Department has spent representing the Church Commissioners pursuant to on its (a) Active People Survey 1 and (b) Active the answer of 5 July 2009, Official Report, column People Survey 2. [294732] 326W,on Lambeth Palace, if he will place in the Library a copy of the Church Commissioners’ policy on the Mr. Sutcliffe: The Active People Surveys were delivered publication of information. [294477] and funded by Sport England. The cost of Active People Survey 1 was £5,538,145. The cost of Active Sir Stuart Bell: The Commissioners do not have a People Survey 2 was £3,152,272. DCMS provided a formal policy document on the publication of housing financial contribution of £885,274 to Active People costs. Total see house costs are published but, given the Survey 2. range of property types and given that the majority of costs are incurred during a vacancy, we do not publish expenditure on individual houses. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Register of Interests Church Commissioners: Land Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, Mr. Gibb: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the Church Commissioners if he will place representing the Church Commissioners how many acres in the Library a copy of the register of interests of of the Church Commissioners’ strategic land portfolio members of the Church Commissioners’Assets Committee. are (a) in the UK and (b) overseas. [294163] [294306] 1443W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1444W

Sir Stuart Bell: The Commissioners make the Register and forecast future traffic volumes. The assumptions available for inspection on their premises by Members made around those issues are the same as those which of Parliament and others upon request. I am pleased to would be made for normal business planning purposes. invite the hon. Gentleman to make an appointment to come to Church House and inspect the Register. Departmental Advertising

Dr. Cable: To ask the Minister of State, Department TRANSPORT for Transport on which initiatives of his Department and its agencies expenditure on advertising has been Dartford-Thurrock Crossing incurred in each of the last five years; how much was spent on each such initiative; and which such initiatives James Brokenshire: To ask the Minister of State, were offered for tender through the Central Office of Department for Transport what estimate he has made Information. [292530] of the sale value of the Dartford River Crossing; and what assumptions he made in relation to (a) the level Chris Mole: Expenditure for the Department for of tolls charged, (b) vehicle movements and (c) other Transport’s advertising campaigns from the 2004-05 factors in making that estimate. [294222] fiscal year is in the following table. The majority of campaign advertising investment by the Department is Mr. Khan: No estimate of the saleable value of the in support of the THINK! road safety and the Act on Dartford River Crossing has been made. Any such CO2 campaigns. Major advertising investment by Executive valuation would depend on the nature of any commercial Agencies has been by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing agreements for a sale, including, but not exclusively, the Agency, for the sale of marks, vehicle excise duty length of those arrangements, the level of future charges enforcement and electronic vehicle licensing.

£ Organisation Campaign 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

DfT(C) THINK! 8.75 million 11.57 million 17.42 million 111.67 million 112.65 million 1.78 million Transport Direct 240,000 865,000 405,000 132,000 1629,000 370,000 42,000 Act on CO2 — — 12.49 million 13.56 million 14.7 million 1.1 million Airport Security — — — 11.01 million — DVLA Sale of Marks 2.534 million 2.335 million 3.006 million 3.124 million 3.55 million VED Enforcement 15.961 million 14.165 million 15.596 million 3.754 million 13.791 million Accelerated Issue of 11.424 million 11.211 million — — — Harmonised Registration Certificate Electronic Vehicle Licensing — — — 12.445 million 12.415 million Others 11.026 million 1677,000 1799,000 1676,000 1982,000 HA Introduction of Traffic — 330,000 — — — Officer Service Traffic Radio Print — — — 99,000 — Advertising Safety, Strategy and — — — 12,000 — Research Advertising Severe Weather Advertising — — — 140,000 6,000 — Roadworker Safety ————60,600 Campaign ’Don’t be that Guy’ ————67,000 campaign Pedestrian Intrusion ————129,700 Campaign Dartford Crossing ————74,600 Summer Getaway ————63,400 GCDA Advertising car and dispatch — 5,000 0,500 — 2,800 services MCA Dial 999 for the Coastguard 9,100 15,500 9,900 15,100 117,700 VCAN/A ————— VOSAN/A ————— DSA Passplus 132,000 115,000 1148,000 114,200 16,500 Learning to Drive — — — 152,600 1349,300 Driver CPC — — — 14,500 1118,700 Enhanced Rider Scheme — — — 120,000 151,300 1445W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1446W

£ Organisation Campaign 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Eco-SafeDSA————14,500 1 Procured via The Central Office of Information.

Departmental Information and Communications East Cost Railway Line Technology Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many new diesel trains Department for Transport what IT systems have been the Secretary of State intends to procure for the new in development for use within his Department in the company issuing services on the East Coast Main Line; last five years; what the reason for the development of and when the (a) first and (b) last of these orders are each system was; how much has been spent on the likely to be (i) placed and (ii) delivered. [294049] development of each system; and which systems have been subsequently (a) implemented, (b) terminated Chris Mole [holding answer 19 October 2009]: The prior to implementation and (c) terminated following Department for Transport does not intend to procure implementation. [290587] any diesel trains for services on the East Coast Main Line. Chris Mole: No central records are kept showing all ICT systems, and such a list could only be provided at However, as part of the Intercity Express Programme, disproportionate cost. However, tables showing the main the Department is procuring new electric and bi-mode systems for the Department for Transport (Central) and (electric and diesel) Super Express Trains to operate its Agencies have been placed in the Libraries of the services on the East Coast and the Great Western Main House. Line from 2014. This follows the electrification announcement by the Departmental Internet Secretary of State in July 2009. Bi-mode trains utilise the electric wires where available and continue beyond the wires using the diesel engine. An announcement on Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, the placing of orders for Super Express Trains will be Department for Transport what estimate his Department made in due course. has made of the annual cost of maintaining and updating its Twitter account; and how many staff are responsible for updating the account. [292051] Party Conferences

Chris Mole: There have been no additional costs to Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Minister of State, Department date for the creation and maintenance of the Department for Transport whether any of his Department’s non- for Transport corporate Twitter channel: departmental public bodies sent representatives to attend http://www.twitter.com/transportgovuk one or more political party conferences in 2009. [293478] No additional staff have been recruited and maintenance of the Twitter channel is being managed within the Chris Mole: One of the Department for Transport’s existing communications budget. The task is the non-departmental public bodies, Passenger Focus, sent responsibility of the departmental communications team representatives to the Labour, Liberal Democrat and as a whole as part of their overall range of duties; no Conservative party conferences in 2009. staff are assigned to Twitter work specifically. Railways: Birmingham Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority: Advertising Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent representations Department for Transport if he will review the extent of his Department has received on proposals for a the need for the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to high-speed rail hub at Birmingham International advertise its services on the radio. [294144] Airport. [293638]

Paul Clark: Radio commercials allow for detailed Chris Mole [holding answer 20 October 2009]: Since targeted messages at an affordable cost and the Department the creation of High Speed Two, the Department for of Transport has had a good deal of success with radio Transport has received two specific written representations campaigns. For example, since the start of the recent with “High speed rail hub at Birmingham International promotion of the Driver Licence online service campaign, Airport” as a subject heading. The Department receives there has been an approximate increase of 25 per cent. general correspondence covering many policy areas, on licences issued online. including high speed rail and the cities it may serve, Radio can reach more people at a lower price than from a number of individuals, organisations and companies. television advertising, with, therefore an increased return High Speed Two’s work will include consideration of on investment. a range of route options between London and the West A review of the extent of this advertising is not Midlands, as well as the access to central London and considered necessary at this time. the other cities served. 1447W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1448W

Road Signs and Markings Payments Agency for amounts less than (a) £60, (b) £40, (c) £20, (d) £10 and (e) £1 in (i) 2006, (ii) 2007 Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, and (iii) 2009. [291921] Department for Transport when blue driver location signs were introduced by his Department; how many Jim Fitzpatrick: The number of single payment scheme have been installed on the road network to date; and at (SPS) cheque payments issued by the Rural Payments what cost to the public purse. [294145] Agency (RPA) for the bands and scheme years specified in the question are as follows: Chris Mole: For more than 30 years, distance marker posts have been provided at 100 metre intervals along Number of payments each hard shoulder of motorways. Marker posts enable Band SPS 2006 SPS 2007 SPS 20081 maintenance contractors to identify exactly where repair £40.01-£60.00 2,417 807 299 works are needed. They also show the direction to the £20.01-£40.00 1,861 492 122 nearest motorway emergency phone. £10.01-£20.00 546 69 14 Driver Location Signs were introduced in 2003 and £1.01-£10.00 80 14 3 approximately 16,000 signs have been installed on £0.01-£1.00 2 6 3 80 per cent. of the motorway network at a cost of 1 A change in EU Regulations meant that RPA stopped making £5.9 million. During 2009-10 signs are being installed payments by cheque on 15 October 2008. All payments are now made on the remaining parts of the Motorway Network at an via BACS. additional cost of £1.6 million. Payment for the 2009 SPS scheme year commences Driver Location Signs are more visible to the travelling on 1 December. public and this enables: Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control Motorists to quickly identify their location. Emergency Services to get to incident scenes more quickly due to them receiving more accurate incident location information. Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs at how many Research carried out on trial sections showed that premises registered to house (a) cattle and (b) camelids response times of emergency service organisations were his officials have been refused entry for the purpose of 10 per cent. quicker than previous responses to similar bovine tuberculosis (i) testing, (ii) tracing and (iii) following incidents. Getting the emergency services to the scene of up of confirmed disease in each of the last 10 years. an incident more efficiently ultimately leads to incidents [293639] being cleared more quickly. Waterloo Station Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA does not hold figures on the number of people who have refused entry to officials Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Department for the purpose of TB testing (including tracing tests). for Transport what progress has been made on negotiations Movement Restrictions are placed on any farms which for franchise commuter train services arriving at and refuse to comply when cattle testing is overdue. departing from at platform 20 at London Waterloo station; and when he expects those negotiations to be Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for concluded. [289499] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of the cost to his Department and its Chris Mole: We are working with Network Rail to predecessor of (a) research into bovine tuberculosis, extend platforms at Waterloo station and across the (b) support from (i) local authority health officers and whole south western network to increase capacity on (ii) the Veterinary Laboratories Agency in respect of some suburban routes from eight to ten carriage trains bovine tuberculosis and (c) any other support provided by 2014. in respect of bovine tuberculosis (A) between 1986 and As part of this, we are investigating how Waterloo 1996 and (B) since 1997. [293640] and Waterloo International Terminal platforms 20 to 24 can be used to help increase capacity on the network. Jim Fitzpatrick: The information is as follows. Work has been carried out on platform 20 and option Research development work is now progressing on other platforms and enhancing the tracks outside the station to support The table provides a summary of TB research cost to the increase in capacity. the Department from 1998 to 2008-09 and the amount spent on the surveillance contract with the Veterinary The Department for Transport is in discussion with Laboratories Agency (VLA) and on the Randomised Stagecoach South West Trains with regard to additional Badger Culling Trial (RBCT). rolling stock and service enhancements for operating longer trains into Waterloo that are value for money TB expenditure on research between 1998 and 2009 (GB) and affordable for the taxpayer. £ million RBCT1 VLA2 Other research

1998-99 2.9 1.9 2.5 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 1999- 4.6 2.4 3.8 Agriculture: Subsidies 2000 2000-01 6.6 3.5 5.3 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001-02 6 3.7 6.1 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many single 2002-03 6.6 4.1 6.5 farm payment cheques were issued by the Rural 2003-04 7.3 5.3 7 1449W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1450W

TB expenditure on research between 1998 and 2009 (GB) as unfit for human consumption e.g. if TB lesions are £ million identified in more than one part of the carcase. In such RBCT1 VLA2 Other research cases DEFRA does makes a payment to the abattoir to cover its disposal costs. It is not possible to provide 2004-05 7.2 4.9 5.7 details of slaughter costs in the form requested: typically 2005-06 6.2 7.5 6.5 an abattoir will receive batches of cattle being slaughtered 2006-07 1.6 7.5 7.8 on disease control grounds rather than single animals—if 2007-08 0.03 7 8.5 one (or more) of these animals is condemned, the cost 2008-09 0 5.9 7.7 to DEFRA will be offset by the total salvage value 1 Figure does not include research into culling methods or the badger received from those passed as fit for human consumption. population survey (£709,400 in 2005-06 and £834,700 in 2006-07). 2 Surveillance activity undertaken by the Veterinary Laboratory Agency (VLA) includes all DEFRA funded work carried out by the VLA Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for relating to TB in cattle and badgers including the supply of Tuberculin. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many cattle Note: have been slaughtered as bovine tuberculosis reactors, All financial data are actual expenditure only which have been incurred in the specified financial year. inconclusives or dangerous contacts in each financial year since 1986. [293800] A finance review of all bTB expenditure and income in the last 10 years has recently been undertaken. The Jim Fitzpatrick: The following table provides the review has validated all data associated with bovine number of cattle slaughtered in England as bovine Tuberculosis expenditure to improve the quality of data tuberculosis reactors, inconclusive reactors and direct provided. As such the table above has been amended to contacts. Data for these three categories of reactors is reflect the outcome of the review. This is also available available in calendar years for 1998 to 2008. on the DEFRA website. I am unable to provide data for TB reactors, inconclusives We are unable to provide figures prior to 1998. or direct contacts before 1998. Council health officers and VLA DEFRA does not receive financial support from Total local council health officers or the Veterinary Laboratories animals Agency in respect of bovine tuberculosis, however we Direct slaughtered Inconclusive contact under are committed to tackling this disease in partnership Reactors reactors reactors Bovine TB with all DEFRA’s delivery bodies and the local authorities. slaughtered slaughtered slaughtered measures

Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 26,038 487 930 27,455 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what consideration 2007 18,543 444 807 19,794 he has given to bringing (a) camelids, (b) sheep, (c) 2006 14,585 361 1,061 16,007 goats and (d) pigs within the scope of the regulatory 2005 20,145 413 2,577 23,135 regime for control of tuberculosis in England. [293677] 2004 15,093 351 1,862 17,306 2003 15,120 454 1,977 17,551 Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA takes TB in all species, not 2002 15,482 580 2,381 18,443 just cattle, seriously and is committed to dealing with it. 2001 3,804 154 480 4,438 Existing legal provisions do allow DEFRA to restrict 2000 6,029 210 951 7,190 movements to and from any herd/flock of farmed 1999 5,929 250 863 7,042 (mammalian) species suspected of being infected by 1998 4,102 201 724 5,027 bovine tuberculosis—so as to reduce the risk of disease Note: spread. In resolving TB problems in such species, DEFRA 2008 data was downloaded from DEFRA’s Animal Health database relies on the cooperation of animal owners to agree (Vetnet) on 2 March 2009. testing, slaughter and compensation arrangements. 2007-05 data was downloaded on 18 March 2008. 2004-1998 data was downloaded on 7 March 2006. A review to identify possible new controls that might help better control TB risks to/from non-bovine species is in hand. Any new policy would need to be effective, Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination affordable and proportionate to the animal and public health risks. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable he has set for the Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for bovine tuberculosis vaccination of badgers project; and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he what steps he has taken to encourage (a) farmers and has made of average payment per head to abattoirs for (b) landowners to participate in the project. [293892] the dispatch of bovine tuberculosis reactor, inconclusive or dangerous contact cattle (a) between 1986 and 1996 and (b) since 1997. [293799] Jim Fitzpatrick: The information requested is as follows. Timetable Jim Fitzpatrick: No such estimate has been made. The Food and Environment Research Agency (Fera) For most cattle compulsorily slaughtered on TB control has begun to sign up farmers in the selected areas to grounds, DEFRA has received a net payment from participate in the project, and contractors to carry out abattoirs rather than incurred a cost. vaccination are being recruited though an EU tender. Meat Hygiene Service officials inspect carcasses of Vaccination will begin in summer 2010, when the vaccine such cattle when slaughtered in licensed abattoirs, a is expected to be licensed, and will take place for at least small proportion of TB affected cattle are condemned five years in each area. Sign-up and vaccination in the 1451W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1452W areas will be phased in over two years to allow time to Dan Norris: The information is as follows: train contractors. A chart showing the phasing process (a) DEFRA’s predecessor departments in 1997 were will be placed in the Library shortly. the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) Encouraging farmers and landowners and the Department of the Environment. The number Communication is an important part of the project. of staff employed by each Government Department Following is an outline of our communications which and Agency in 1997 has been published by Cabinet are aimed at informing all stakeholders of the details of Office (Tables 1A-1D) and is available on-line: the project and encouraging participation. http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/css97_tcm6-2540.pdf DEFRA and Fera held meetings earlier this year with local (b) The latest staffing figures are as at 30 June 2009 and vets and key regional representatives to inform them and are available at: enable vets to talk to their clients about the project. We have http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ established a regular newsletter to keep local vets, regional Product.asp?vlnk=2899&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=422 representatives and others up to date. An inquiries phoneline and e-mail address have been set up DEFRA was created on 8 June 2001 from MAFF and publicised. and approximately 650 staff from the Department of Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR). On A new website has been launched, which gives an opportunity for farmers to sign up. 3 October 2008, approximately 320 DEFRA staff transferred to the newly-created Department of Energy Literature has been produced. This literature is also being distributed to farmers through DEFRA’s Livestock Market and Climate Change (DECC). Roadshow this autumn. The project team have given a presentation on the project to Departmental Non-Domestic Rates farmers at one local veterinary practice meeting, with opportunity for sign-up and will be doing the same with at least one further Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for practice. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many To encourage farmers to participate, Fera are writing to all properties owned by his Department were liable for cattle farmers within the selected areas to invite them to apply payment of (a) business rates and (b) empty property to take part in the project and to attend local meetings to find rates in each of the last five years; and what the bill for out more. The first of these meetings has been held. each was in each such year. [290529] Articles have been published in DEFRA’s magazine for farmers and another is planned for the new year. Dan Norris: The information is in the following tables. Departmental Air Travel DEFRA Freehold rate liabilities for 2005-10 Number of With a liability of Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for properties (£) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the 2005-06 32 3,301,468 answer of 10 February 2009, Official Report, columns 2006-07 31 3,442,168 1810-11W, on departmental air travel, what the figures 2007-08 40 5,408,038 are for each entry in the table for which the abbreviation 2008-09 40 4,196,976 tbc was used. [287354] 2009-10 35 4,442,386 Dan Norris: Responsibility for the provision of carbon Total 20,791,036 offsetting data for Government Departments and other Empty property relief for 2005-10 public sector bodies transferred to the Department for Number of With a liability of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) on its creation in properties (£) October 2008. I refer the right hon. Member to information on the DECC website at: 2005-06 2 24,095 http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/whatwedo/icuk/ 2006-07 3 13,477 cosoffsetting/govdata/govdata.aspx 2007-08 1 1,006 2008-09 1 94,551 Departmental Billing 2009-10 n/a n/a Total 133,131 John Mason: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage Departmental Pay of invoices from suppliers his Department paid within 10 days of receipt in June 2009. [288915] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: The percentage of invoices from suppliers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many the core-Department paid within 10 days of receipt in staff in his Department received remuneration including June, July, August 2009 was 99.8 per cent., 99.8 per benefits of £100,000 or more in 2008-09; [291842] cent. and 100 per cent. respectively. (2) how many of his Department’s staff received annual remuneration including benefits of £100,000 or Departmental Manpower more in 2008-09. [291850]

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: The table shows the number of staff Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many staff (excludes workers employed under a contract for services) there were in (a) his Department’s predecessor in 1997 who received remuneration1, including benefits of £100,000 and (b) his Department on the latest date for which or more in 2008-09, in core-DEFRA and its Executive figures are available. [292062] agencies, Animal Health (AH), Veterinary Medicines 1453W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1454W

Directorate (VMD), Marine and Fisheries Agency (MFA), R3. Details of contract awardees should be published Veterinary Laboratories Agency (VLA), Rural Payments online in a standard format within 48 days of contract Agency (RPA), Centre for Environment, Fisheries and signature, accessible via the single portal by 2010. Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) and the Food and DEFRA has dedicated procurement pages on its external Environment Research Agency (FERA). website and will include information on contracts awarded. It is 1 For the purposes of responding to the question, remuneration DEFRA’s intention to provide this information through the cross has been interpreted as including base salary, bonuses, allowances Government online portal. and superannuation costs. R4. Tendering opportunities thought especially suitable for SMEs or consortia of SMEs should be flagged by Number of staff receiving the procurer during the advertising process. Government remuneration, including benefits should provide strategic and detailed guidance for procuring Department/agency of £100,000 or more in 2008-09 authorities on assessing suitable contracts for flagging, Core-DEFRA 75 based on risk, value and market maturity. AH 4 Tendering opportunities for Government contracts are governed VMD 1 by the principles of Managing Public Money and the public procurement directives. DEFRA very much welcomes the participation MFA 1 of SMEs either individually or collectively. It is a key element of RPA 2 our Integrated Commercial Strategy to maximise the diversity of VLA 3 our supplier base including SMEs or consortia thereof and the CEFAS 1 structuring of all procurements will be done in such a way as to FERA 4 encourage this. We will also be encouraging prime contractors to optimise the use of SMEs in their sub-contracting. R5. Qualification criteria that are not specific to a Departmental Postal Services sector should be standardised and incorporated in all pre-qualification questionnaires so that businesses do Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, not need to repeatedly submit the same core information Food and Rural Affairs how much his Department in different formats. spent on Royal Mail services in each of the last two DEFRA has included this as a requirement within the Integrated years. [288734] Commercial Strategy.Technical solutions for storing and disseminating supplier data and criteria are being considered as part of this process. It is expected that this will be fully in place by late Dan Norris: The combined spend of core-DEFRA autumn 2010. and the DEFRA Executive agencies from information R6. Procurers should give businesses the opportunity held centrally is as follows: to provide details of all previous relevant experience when bidding for contracts, not just public sector experience. Financial year £ million This should be taken into account when selecting successful 2007-08 5.58 tenderers. 2008-09 5.32 DEFRA has already introduced this within current tender processes. Departmental Procurement R7. Procurers should ensure that, where they rely on a particular accreditation scheme or standard as part of the process of prequalification or contract award, that Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for they take a flexible approach. Businesses should be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress given the opportunity to provide evidence that they can his Department has made in implementing the meet the contract requirements by reference to other recommendations of the Glover Report in its procurement similar equivalent accreditations or standards they may processes. [287138] already hold—especially where these have been recognised or required by other public sector procurers. Dan Norris: DEFRA’s progress in implementing the DEFRA has already introduced this within current tender 12 recommendations in the Glover Report is: processes. R1. By 2010, contract opportunities above £20,000 R8. Departments should use their Innovation across the whole public sector should be advertised Procurement Plans to set out how procurement aligns electronically with standard indicative contract value with their overall commercial strategy, encourages ranges, and accessible through a single, free, easy to innovation and gives advanced notice of long-term search online portal. procurement plans. DEFRA is finalising an Innovation Procurement Plan and This is being implemented as part of the DEFRA’s Integated expect to be able to issue this as part of its Integrated Commercial Commercial Strategy and will go live in 2010. Strategy. Innovation in procurement is itself one of the key R2. Government should issue all tender documentation objectives of developing this strategy. electronically by 2010 and this should be kept as brief R9. Government should encourage wider use of as possible. Businesses should be permitted to tender outcome-based specifications across the public sector, electronically for all public sector contracts by 2010; no as a means of driving innovation. “paper only” tenders should be required after this date, DEFRA has already introduced this within current tender with an ambition for all tenders to be electronic by processes. 2012. R10. Government should expect and enable prime This too will be implemented as part of our Integrated Commercial contractors to make their subcontracting opportunities Strategy We are planning to be fully compliant well in advance of accessible through the single, online portal created in the 2012 deadline. Recommendation 1. 1455W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1456W

DEFRA will be encouraging this as part of its Integrated for providing ministerial cars and drivers. I refer the Commercial Strategy. hon. Member to the answer provided by my hon. Friend R11. Through contract management, Government the Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Chris Mole) should ensure that SMEs and other firms acting as of 21 July 2009, Official Report, columns 1218-1220W. sub-contractors obtain contract conditions, including From information held centrally, the core-Department’s promptness of payment terms that are no worse than expenditure on taxis for the financial year 2006-07 those applicable to the prime contractor. onwards is: DEFRA already includes this requirement within all major contracts and is incorporating it into standard terms and conditions Financial year £ for all contracts. R12. The Committee recommends that all central 2006-07 268,095 Government Departments should report annually on 2007-08 346,458 the value of their contract spend with SMEs, creating a 2008-09 299,401 reliable single source of quantitative data which can be 2009-10 to September 59,996 used to inform future policy decisions and evaluate the From information held centrally, the core-Department’s recommendations in this report. expenditure on air and train travel from July 2006 is: DEFRA now has a system in place that allows it to record full records of its suppliers including a classification for SMEs. It is £ expected that reporting will be available by or before March 2010. Air Rail Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2006-March 2007 1,107,106 1,868,731 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage April 2007-March 2008 1,505,097 1,978,850 of procurement contracts (a) his Department and (b) April 2008-March 2009 1,049,256 1,733,417 its agencies awarded to small businesses in (i) 2006-07, April 2009-August 2009 663,886 936,916 (ii) 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and (iv) 2009-10; and if he There is no information held centrally on the use of will make a statement. [293239] helicopters and chartered aeroplanes. Dan Norris: The Department has been asked by the Dogs Office of Government Commerce to provide them by the end of financial year 2009-10 with the actual figure Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for and percentage of departmental third party expenditure Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many via small and medium sized enterprises as prime contractors attacks by dogs on people of each age category were and where they have been engaged through a departmental reported in each of the last five years. [293657] or pan-governmental framework agreement. This information is being compiled and the analysis will be Jim Fitzpatrick: Information showing the number of included in DEFRA’s 2010 departmental report. defendants found guilty at all courts for offences under section 3(1) and 3(3) of the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act Departmental Travel in England and Wales from 2003 to 2007 (latest available) can be viewed in the following table. The information Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for provides both the number of cases where injuries were Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much his inflicted and also the number of cases where no injuries Department has spent on (a) Ministerial cars and were inflicted. drivers, (b) taxis, (c) train travel, (d) the use of helicopters, The Court Proceedings Database held by the Ministry (e) airline tickets and (f) chartered aeroplanes in each of Justice does not hold specific information on the age year since 1997. [289066] of the victims beyond descriptions provided by the statutes under which prosecutions are brought. Dan Norris: DEFRA came into being in June 2001. Data for 2008 are planned for publication at the end The Government Car and Despatch Agency is responsible of January 2010.

Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for selected offences under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, England and Wales 2003-071,2

Found guilty

Section of Offence description the Act 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to be S.3(1) 302 350 403 458 456 dangerously out of control in a public place injuring any person

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to be S.3(1) 171 167 168 160 205 dangerously out of control in a public place, no injury being caused

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to enter S.3(3) 33 25 25 29 27 a non-public place and injure any person 1457W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1458W

Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for selected offences under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, England and Wales 2003-071,2 Found guilty Section of Offence description the Act 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to enter S.3(3) 10 5 9 11 15 a non-public place causing reasonable apprehension of injury to a person Total 516 547 605 658 703 1 The number proceeded against and number found guilty statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces and the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Evidence and Analysis unit—Office for Criminal Justice

Domestic Waste: Fixed Penalties and (b) no side waste policies in respect of the collection of household waste, other than in its Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance on alternative weekly collections. [294467] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make it his policy to issue new statutory guidance to waste Dan Norris: WRAP has published no additional guidance collection authorities to curtail the issuing of fixed on either subject. penalty notices against households for minor breaches of the rules in relation to the disposal of household waste. [294620] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what pilot Dan Norris: Local authorities are not obliged by programmes involving the weighing of household refuse Government or the guidance we issue to impose fixed containers have been supported by (a) his Department penalties. While we would expect them to be proportionate and (b) the Waste and Resources Action Programme to in their use of these powers, how they use these powers date. [294615] is entirely a matter for individual local authorities. Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal Dan Norris: Neither DEFRA nor the Waste and Resources Action Programme (WRAP) has supported Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for pilot programmes involving the weighing of household Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which local refuse containers. authorities have introduced wheeled refuse containers for the collection of household waste, according to However, WRAP is preparing a review of such weighing records held by (a) his Department and (b) the Waste systems to assess their suitability for use in reward and Resources Action Programme. [294450] schemes such as ’Recyclebank.’

Dan Norris: I have placed the list of local authorities Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for operating residual collections in wheeled bins for 2008-09 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance in the Library of the House. (a) his Department and (b) the Waste and Resources Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Action Programme has issued on the use of (a) 140 litre Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the and (b) 240 litre household wheeled refuse containers. answer of 14 July 2009, Official Report, column 229W, [294621] on the Futuresource Conference, what the cost of the quantitative and qualitative research commissioned by Dan Norris: The Government believe local authorities the Waste and Resources Action Programme on are best placed to make waste management strategy Principles of a good collection service was; and which decisions for their local areas. It has issued no such contractors provided the research. [294457] guidance but does encourage local authorities to consult extensively with residents to ensure their opinions and Dan Norris: The quantitative and qualitative research, preferences are taken into consideration. carried out by Brook Lyndhurst and ICM on behalf of the Local Government Association and the Waste and WRAP has issued no such guidance. Resources Action Programme, cost £38,600. The research was to ensure that the principles of a good recycling Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State service, called for by the fifth report (2006-07) of the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Communities and Local Government Select Committee, the Waste and Resources Action Programme has made were firmly based on evidence of the views and priorities of household waste collections in overseas countries on of the public. (a) three-weekly or (b) four-weekly collection cycles. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for [294964] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance or advice the Waste and Resources Action Programme Dan Norris: No such assessment has been made by has issued on the operation of (a) closed-lid policies the Waste and Resources Action Programme. 1459W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1460W

Food: Origin Marking Marine Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund

Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what projects are has been made in his Department’s discussions with being funded by the Marine Aggregates Levy supermarkets on a voluntary scheme for country of Sustainability Fund in 2009-10. [294720] origin food labelling. [292405] Dan Norris: Projects commissioned in 2008-09 and Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA Ministers have raised the drawing funds from the Marine Aggregates Levy issue of country of origin labelling with the representatives Sustainability Fund in 2009-10 are: of the main supermarkets. The supermarkets have agreed to comply with the Food Standards Agency’s guidance Project on this issue. MEPF Marine Aggregate Integrated Assessment. The pigmeat and pigmeat products sector is of particular 08/02 public concern. A sub-group of the Pig Meat Supply MEPF Marine Aggregates supply as part of a sustainable Chain Task Force that was established by DEFRA in 08/P14 mix. March to include all elements of the supply chain, is in MEPF Derek the Dredger and the Marine Biologists. the process of drafting an industry wide voluntary code 08/P27 of practice on origin labelling with the aim of implementing MEPF Mitigation of Marine Aggregate Dredging Impacts— 08/P33 Benchmarking Equipment, Practices and it early next year. Technologies against Global Best Practice. MEPF Effects of aggregate dredging on marine food web Hill Farming 08/P37 structure and function. MEPF Impacts of Marine Aggregate Extraction on Adjacent 08/P39 “Sabellaria spinulosa” aggregations and Other Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Benthic Fauna. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment MEPF Dredging Impacts Verified in Relation to Scientific he has made of the likely prospects for financial 08/P40 Evidence(DIVERSE). viability in the hill farming sector in the next 10 years. MEPF Developing new ground truthing techniques for [293180] 08/P64 seabed mapping. MEPF The development and application of an instrument Jim Fitzpatrick: The Secretary of State has not made 08/P70 array to measure the concentration of silt and sand in any particular assessment of the financial viability of the overflow from aggregate dredgers. the hill farming sector in the next 10 years. MEPF Assessment of the distribution and intensity of 08/P73 fishing activities in the vicinity of aggregate extraction Shortly, we will publish the most recent data from the sites. Farm Business survey showing farm incomes by farm MEPF Best Practice Workshop and Guidelines on Aggregate type, including hill farms, in the year ended February 08/P75 Ecological Assessments. 2009. MEPF Measuring the effects of suspended particulate matter 08/P76 and smothering on the behaviour, growth and survival Early next year, DEFRA will be publishing forecasts of key species found in areas associated with of farm income in England for the year ending February aggregate dredging. 2010, by farm type, including hill farms. MEPF 2007 REC Data Projects: Analysis and Interpretation REC 08/01 Thames Region. Litter MEPF 2007 REC Data Projects: Analysis and Interpretation REC 08/02 South Coast Region. MEPF Humber Regional Environmental Characterisation Mr. Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for REC 08/03 (REC) Programme. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what policies his MEPF East Coast Regional Environmental Characterisation Department has in place to reduce levels of littering in REC 08/04 (REC) Programme. England. [293627] MEPF Communications and Dissemination Co-ordination 07/S05 of MEPF Activities. Jim Fitzpatrick: Local Environment Quality Surveys MEPF Marine ALSF Science Co-ordination Services. for England since 2001 show that while there has been 08/S04-05 some improvement in that time nearly a fifth of areas MEPF Marine ALSF GIS—enhancements II. 08/S04-07 surveyed still fall below satisfactory levels for litter and MEPF Fisheries Liaison Co-ordination (Onshore and about a quarter of people surveyed admit to littering. 08/S05 Offshore) Services for the Regional Environmental Each year the Government funds the campaigning charity Characterisation (REC) Surveys to be conducted in Keep Britain Tidy (£5 million in 2009-10) to raise the East Coast and Humber regions. awareness of the problem, campaign for changes in MEPF Project Co-ordination of the Marine ALSF Regional behaviour and offer technical support and advice to 08/S07-03 Environmental Characterisation Studies. national, regional and local government. Local authorities, who have a legal duty to clear litter A further nine projects are in the process of being from public places, have been given the powers they commissioned from the Fund in 2009-10 and contracts need to tackle those that litter, most recently through for these projects have yet to be finalised. provisions in the Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Details of all current and completed projects funded Act 2005. Information and guidance is provided to by the Marine Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund are local authorities to help them to improve their enforcement published on the MALSF website at: and street cleansing services. http://www.alsf-mepf.org.uk/projects/current-projects.aspx 1461W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1462W

Milk: Prices meeting the requirements of the END, we are progressing Noise Action Plans, and this is helping to refine existing Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for policy as evidence on the effects of noise continues to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate emerge. The Government are in the process of consolidating his Department has made of the average (a) farm gate their longer term noise management policies, some of price, (b) price given to processors and (c) which can be found in the draft noise action plans, and supermarket price of a pint of milk in each of the last determining how these could be best delivered. 12 months. [294054] Pet Travel Scheme Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 19 October 2009]: The following tables show monthly UK farm gate and Mr. Boswell: To ask the Secretary of State for retail milk prices. No information is available on prices Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will paid at all other points in the supply chain. conduct a risk assessment of the extent to which the The farm gate price is calculated from monthly surveys importation of dogs infected with echinococcus of milk purchasers conducted in England and Wales by multilocularis might be increased if the requirement for DEFRA, in Scotland by RERAD and in Northern treatment with Praziquantel under the Pet Travel Ireland by DARD. The farm gate price is the average Scheme were relaxed. [294030] price received by producers, net of delivery charges. No deduction has been made for superlevy. Jim Fitzpatrick: The European Commission’s proposal UK farm gate milk price for an 18-month extension to the derogation which Units: pence per pint allows the UK to operate its current pet movement controls also includes provisions for the control of September 2008 15 other diseases, such as echinococcus multilocularis. The October 2008 16 Government will need to conduct a risk assessment to November 2008 15 assess UK exposure to the parasite if the requirement December 2008 15 for Praziquantel tapeworm treatment is removed. Should January 2009 15 the evidence justify it, this would form part of the case February 2009 14 to retain current controls. March 2009 14 April 2009 13 Rural Areas: Low Incomes May 2009 12 June 2009 13 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2009 13 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he August 2009 13 has made of the proportion of (a) English farming Source: households and (b) households in rural areas with DEFRA. incomes below the low income threshold. [291906] The average retail price of milk published by the ONS represents the average across all outlets (including Jim Fitzpatrick: The information is as follows: delivered milk) rather than just supermarkets. (a) In 2007-08 for England, 25 per cent. of farm households were UK average retail price of pasteurised whole milk below the modified low income threshold (gross income before Units: pence per pint housing costs). (b) In 2007-08 for England 18 per cent. of rural households were September 2008 42 below the low income threshold (gross income before housing October 2008 45 costs). November 2008 45 December 2008 45 Waste and Resources Action Programme January 2009 45 February 2009 44 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2009 44 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much April 2009 44 funding (a) his Department and (b) the Waste and May 2009 44 Resources Action Programme has provided to Project June 2009 44 Reduce to undertake studies of the contents of July 2009 44 household refuse containers in the last 12 months. [294614] August 2009 44 Source: ONS. Dan Norris: No funding for the undertaking of studies Noise: Pollution Control of the contents of households refuse containers has been provided by DEFRA to Project Reduce in the last Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 months. The Waste and Resources Action Programme Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress had no involvement in this project. his Department has made on implementing its plans Waste Management for a noise reduction strategy; and if he will make a statement. [293600] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: The implementation of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what timetable Environmental Noise Directive (END) has been the has been set for the Environment Agency to establish Department’s main focus of activity regarding noise. In its new online waste data tracking system. [294612] 1463W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1464W

Dan Norris: The Environment Agency is developing trustee boards to have 50 per cent. member-nominated new web-based data reporting software called ’Generic trustees. The research contractor (BMRB) has now Operator Returns’. This will provide a more efficient completed interviews with employers, scheme representatives and up-to-date method for businesses to provide data to and trade union representatives and is preparing a the Environment Agency. Following a successful trial research report. This is expected to be published in the implementation, external web data entry will be phased spring of 2010. in from January 2010.

WORK AND PENSIONS Social Security Benefits: Disabled

Employment: Autism Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many and what proportion of and Pensions what estimate she has made of the claimants of (a) incapacity benefit, (b) employment number of adults with autism in (a) Bexleyheath and and support allowance, (c) severe disablement Crayford constituency and (b) London Borough of allowance and (d) income support for incapacity Bexley that are in (i) part-time and (ii) full-time undertook permitted work in each of the last 10 years employment. [294260] as applicable. [291279] Jonathan Shaw: The information requested is not available. Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 16 September 2009]: Employment and Support Allowance The available information is in the following table. Incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance or income support Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work claimants with permitted work and Pensions how many and what proportion of claims Year ending February Proportion for employment and support allowance took (a) fewer each year Number (percentage) than 11 days, (b) between 11 and 40 days and (c) over 40 days to process in each month since the scheme 2003 Incapacity benefit 10,600 0.4 came into operation. [291004] Severe 1,400 0.4 disablement Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 14 September 2009]: allowance We are currently exploring whether we can develop Income support 600 — some official statistics on processing times for Employment 2004 Incapacity benefit 27,600 1.1 and Support Allowance new claims in the near future. Severe 6,700 2.1 disablement Incapacity Benefit allowance Income support 500 — Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2005 Incapacity benefit 31,300 1.3 and Pensions how many and what percentage of people Severe 7,400 2.4 leaving incapacity benefit began claiming (a) disablement incapacity benefit again and (b) employment and allowance support allowance within a year of leaving the benefit Income support 600 — in each of the last five years for which figures are 2006 Incapacity benefit 35,300 1.4 available; and of those people what percentage were Severe 8,000 2.7 aged (i) 18 to 24, (ii) 25 to 49 and (iii) 50 years and over disablement in each year. [291005] allowance Income support 600 — Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 14 September 2009]: The available information has been placed in the Library. 2007 Incapacity benefit 39,100 1.6 Severe 8,300 3.0 disablement Pension Funds: Trustees allowance Income support 600 — Mr. Doran: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2008 Incapacity benefit 40,000 1.7 and Pensions what research she has (a) undertaken and (b) commissioned on the (i) costs, (ii) feasibility Severe 8,400 3.1 disablement and (iii) effects on pension schemes of implementation allowance proposals to require a minimum 50 per cent. member nominated trustees on the boards of pension funds. Income support 800 — [294311] 2009 Incapacity benefit 39,000 1.8 Severe 8,600 3.4 Angela Eagle: The Department has commissioned a disablement qualitative research study into the costs, feasibility and allowance effects of any potential move to require pension scheme Income support 600 — 1465W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1466W

Notes: Forfeiture Committee 1. Figures are produced from 5 per cent. sample data and have been uprated to be in line with the 100 per cent. proportions. 2. Numbers are rounded to the nearest 100. Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the 3. Proportions are rounded to the nearest 1 decimal place. Cabinet Office on which dates the Forfeiture Committee 4. “—” denotes nil or negligible. has met since 1 January 2009. [287855] 5. Data not available in respect of employment and support allowance. 6. Income support permitted work cases are those where the claimant is disabled and earning less than £20 per week. Tessa Jowell: The Forfeiture Committee conducts 7. Those claimants with incapacity benefit who are also receiving most of its business in correspondence, but plans to income support are included in the incapacity benefit figures to avoid meet on an annual basis to review the year’s cases and double counting. discuss matters of policy. The Committee has met once 8. Information on permitted work has only been available since the in 2009, on 23 September. The subjects discussed by the November 2002 quarter. 9. Permitted work categories (current rates): Committee remain confidential. a. Permitted Work Lower Level (up to £20 per week for unlimited period). Former Ministers: Pay b. Supported Permitted Work (up to £93 per week for unlimited period (*supported)). c. Permitted Work Higher Limit (up to £93 per week and < 16 hours Mr. Meacher: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet forupto26weeks). Office what information her Department holds on the d. Permitted Work Higher Limit Subsequent (PWHL after 52 week level of remuneration made to former Ministers given gap (*supported)). permission to take private sector jobs within two years e. * The support must be given by a person employed by a public or of leaving office. [293486] local authority or voluntary organisation. Source: DWP Information Directorate 5 per cent. sample. Tessa Jowell: The Ministerial Code requires that former Ministers must seek advice from the independent Advisory Committee on Business Appointments about any appointments or employment they wish to take up PRIME MINISTER within two years of leaving office, apart from unpaid appointments in non-commercial organisations. There Serious Fraud Office is no requirement for former Ministers to reveal details of their proposed remuneration packages. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Prime Minister whether he has received representations in respect of the current Government Departments: Power of Information investigation by the Serious Fraud Office into BAE Taskforce Systems. [293889] Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet The Prime Minister: This is a matter for the Serious Office what guidance she has issued to Government Fraud Office. departments on the implementation of the fee recommendations of the final report of the Power of Information Taskforce published on 2 March 2009. [292791] CABINET OFFICE Tessa Jowell: Following recommendation 10 of the Advertising Advisory Committee Power of Information Taskforce report, the National Archives drafted new, tighter criteria for the application Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office of fees for the provision of public sector information. pursuant to the answer of 16 July 2009, Official Report, This draft was published on 28 July 2009 on their blog column 624W, on the Advertising Advisory “PSI Perspectives” Committee, if she will place in the Library a copy of http://perspectives.opsi.gov.uk/ the minutes of each Government Strategic Marketing for public comment. The National Archives has also Advisory Board meeting in the last 12 months, written to Departments drawing their attention to these redacting commercially confidential elements. [291053] draft criteria.

Angela E. Smith [holding answer 14 September 2009]: Margaret Moran: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Ministers and civil servants meet many people as part Office what mechanism is in place to track progress of the process of policy development and advice. It is made by Government departments in implementing not the normal practice of government to disclose the recommendations of the final report of the Power detailed information in respect of such discussions. of Information Taskforce, published on 2 March 2009. [292792] Damian McBride Tessa Jowell: The Power of Information Taskforce Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet sets out the strategic actions needed to harness the Office when she last met Mr. Damian McBride in the power of Web 2.0 technologies to improve the way course of her official duties. [287399] Government communicates with citizens, with the aim of making policy making more collaborative and open. Tessa Jowell: I have not met Damian McBride in the The Director for Digital Engagement within the Cabinet course of my ministerial duties since his resignation on Office works across Government Departments to encourage, 11 April 2009. support and challenge Departments in moving from 1467W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1468W communicating to citizens on the web, to conversing Colombia: Military Aid and collaborating with them through digital technology to improve the delivery of public services. As part of Mr. Rooney: To ask the Secretary of State for this role he is responsible for tracking the implementation Defence pursuant to the answer of 26 November 1999, of the Power of Information Taskforce report. Official Report, column 115W, on Colombia, whether (a) advisory visits and (b) information exchanges Scotland between the UK and Colombia on operations in urban theatres, counter guerrilla strategy and psychiatry Stewart Hosie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet continue to take place. [293754] Office whether her Department plans to make a submission to the Scottish Executive’s National Bill Rammell [holding answer 16 October 2009]: Advisory Conversation consultation on Scotland’s constitutional visits and information exchanges between the UK and future. [288952] Colombia on operations in urban theatres, counter guerrilla strategy and psychiatry no longer take place. Tessa Jowell: The Cabinet Office has not submitted evidence to the Scottish Government’s National Conversation. Defence Equipment The Commission on Scottish Devolution was established by majority vote in the Scottish Parliament and with the full support of the UK Government. UK Departments Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State submitted evidence to the Commission during its first for Defence what recent steps he has taken to ensure phase of evidence gathering. that all troops are properly equipped for each of their duties. [294504] The Commission recently published its final report, which can be found here: Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence is focused http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/uploads/ on ensuring our armed forces continue to be provided 2009-06-12-csd-final-report-2009fbookmarked.pdf with the equipment they need for the conduct of operations A steering group has been established under the in Afghanistan, our main effort. So far this financial chairmanship of the Secretary of State for Scotland to year we have approved £410 million on Urgent Operational help the UK Government and the Scottish Parliament Requirements, a large proportion of which has been for plan how to take forward the Calman recommendations Force Protection and to counter the threat from Improvised and deliver stronger devolution within a stronger United Explosive Devices (IEDs). New equipments, including Kingdom. vehicles, continue to be delivered as quickly as possible. Suicide Defence Medical Services: Manpower Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what suicide rates in each local authority area were in Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State each of the last four years. [294309] for Defence (1) what the current shortfall is of each rank of medical personnel available for active service; Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls and if he will make a statement; [291717] within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority to reply to the hon. Member. (2) what the (a) inflow and (b) outflow rates were of A copy of the response will be placed in the Libraries of medical personnel in each of the three services in each the House. of the last five years. [291719]

Mr. Kevan Jones: Manning statistics for the Defence Medical Services are updated twice a year, in April and DEFENCE October. The October 2009 figures are currently being collated, and verified figures should be available by the Armed Forces Day end of November. I will place these figures in the Library of the House. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with the Merchant Departmental Procurement Navy Association on its involvement in Armed Forces Day 2010. [294704] Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Bob Ainsworth: While I have not had direct for Defence when his Department next plans to renew discussions, I can confirm that the Merchant Navy its procurement processes. [294503] Association are part of the Armed Forces Day 2010 Steering Group, and were in attendance at the first Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence keeps meeting held in Cardiff on 22 September 2009. its procurement processes under continuous review. At I can also confirm that an invitation will be extended the strategic level we plan to publish a Strategy for to the Merchant Navy Association to attend and participate Defence Acquisition in the new year which will take in Armed Forces Day events across the United Kingdom, forward many of the recommendations in the report by including the National Event in Cardiff. Bernard Gray which was published on 15 October 2009. 1469W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1470W

Ex-Servicemen: Crime Bill Rammell [holding answer 19 October 2009]: This year is very challenging in resource terms, and success Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State in Afghanistan must take priority. As much as the for Defence what steps his Department plans to take to Regular forces, the Reserves must now focus available seek to reduce the number of armed forces veterans in resources on supporting the ongoing campaign in the criminal justice system. [294507] Afghanistan, which means reducing activity levels elsewhere. These savings have been recommended by the Army Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD’s comprehensive resettlement and accepted by the Secretary of State. This is about package provides graduated re-training and advice on putting today’s operations first. future careers, financial planning, access to housing The measures that have been the subject of recent and other benefits. For those considered vulnerable to parliamentary debate and media reporting are specific social exclusion, we work closely with ex-service and to this financial year and reflect the fact that we are wider charitable organisations, Communities and Local rightly focusing resources on the main effort, Afghanistan. Government and the Devolved Administrations to reduce And that means also focusing on forces currently deployed the potential of turning to crime by helping them and the next roulement. But we have not taken these finding a home, access appropriate health care and decisions without understanding potential risks, and we finding work. are absolutely determined that any risks to deployments If a veteran of the armed forces is imprisoned, the to Afghanistan in 2012 will not be allowed to materialise. Veterans Prison In-Reach Group aims to raise awareness The Prime Minister is clear that the mission to Afghanistan among the ex-service prison population of the help and will have all the resources and backing it needs to support available to them and their immediate families succeed. while they serve their sentence and as they prepare for We remain committed to ensuring that we have Reserve release. As well as the Ministry of Defence, the Group forces that meet the needs of Defence, today and tomorrow. consists of the National Offender Management Service Discussions about future training for the TA will be in the Ministry of Justice, The Royal British Legion, based on the requirement to preserve its ability to SSAFA Forces Help, Combat Stress, the Service Personnel support regular forces on operations, and on ensuring and Veterans Agency, the National Association for the that TA soldiers are properly equipped and trained. Care and Resettlement of Offenders, Action for Prisoners’ Those reserves deploying over the next year will of Families, Her Majesty’s Prison representatives, and course continue to be paid for the training they do to representatives from the Devolved Administrations. prepare them for their deployment, as well as for the Together, they work to explore new ways of better deployment itself. This training will vary for individuals, assisting veterans in prison, with the overall aim of depending on the task they will be required to do and reducing re-offending. their current skill set. This pre-deployment training is not being cut back. It will continue to be validated at Nuclear Weapons the Reserves Training and Mobilisation Centre at Chilwell, before individuals are mobilised to join a formed unit Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for for an extended period of training ahead of operations. Defence what assessment he has made of the merits of It cannot be said enough; no soldier will be allowed to reducing the number of nuclear warheads in the United deploy to Afghanistan without the necessary training Kingdom stockpile; what technical capability exists in and equipment, whatever their trade, whether regular the UK to dismantle redundant warheads; and whether or reserve. the UK is able to make use of US expertise on this matter. [294253] SOLICITOR-GENERAL Corruption Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Government are committed to retaining only the minimum credible nuclear deterrent Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General capability. We regularly review the number of warheads what assessment the Attorney-General has made of in the UK stockpile in that light. whether the terms of Article 5 of the OECD The UK technical capability to disassemble warheads Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public is exercised and maintained at a level appropriate to Officials in International Business Transactions are enable effective warhead surveillance, essential stockpile binding when considering whether to consent to maintenance and the timely disassembly of the stockpile prosecute British companies and individuals in relation should the need arise. to allegations of overseas corruption. [294735] We do not rely on US capabilities to dismantle UK The Solicitor-General: In considering an application warheads. However, the UK has regular specialist technical for consent to the institution of criminal proceedings, exchanges with the US through the 1958 Mutual Defence the Attorney-General considers whether or not a Agreement. These exchanges include warhead disassembly, prosecution would be in the public interest, in accordance to share best practice and experience. with accepted prosecutorial principles. For the purposes of the 2005 UK phase 2 report of the OECD Working Territorial Army: Finance Group on Bribery in International Business Transactions, the then Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith confirmed Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for that none of the factors listed in article 5 would be Defence for what reasons he decided to implement taken into account by him as public interest factors reductions in the budget available for the Territorial justifying a decision not to give consent. The present Army before the end of the 2009-10 financial year. Attorney-General takes the same approach, and abides [294120] by article 5. 1471W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1472W

JUSTICE (3) how many and what percentage of (a) male and (b) female prisoners were serving sentences for Domestic Violence drug-related offences in each year since 1997. [294203] Claire Ward: The number of defendants proceeded Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice against at magistrates courts, found guilty at all courts what the (a) longest, (b) average and (c) shortest and sentenced to immediate custody for ‘possession waiting period for entry into a domestic violence with intent to supply’ and ‘supplying or offering to perpetrator programme was in each probation area in supply’ cannabis and ecstasy in England and Wales, each year since such programmes were introduced. from 1997 to 2007 (latest available) is shown in table 1. [294199] The number of defendants found guilty at all courts and sentenced to immediate custody for unlawful Maria Eagle: The National Offender Management importation of a controlled drug in England and Wales, Service are currently collating the requested information from 1997 to 2007, is shown in table 2. and I hope to shortly be in a position to write to the The statistics given in tables 1 and 2 relate to persons hon. Member before Prorogation. for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been Drugs: Crime found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for (1) how many people were (a) prosecuted, (b) which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. convicted and (c) imprisoned for dealing (i) cannabis Court proceedings data for 2008 are planned for and (ii) ecstasy in each year since 1997; [294151] publication at the end of January 2010. (2) how many people were (a) found guilty and (b) The number of males and females serving sentences sentenced to immediate custody for the unlawful in prison establishments in England and Wales for drug importation of a controlled drug in each year since offences from 1997 to 2009 (as at 30 June each year) is 1997; [294200] shown in table 3.

Table 1: The number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty at all courts and sentenced to immediate custody for ‘possession with intent to supply’ and ‘supplying or offering to supply’ cannabis and ecstasy (methylenedioxymethamphetamine—MDMA) in England and Wales, 1997 to 2007 1997 1998 1999 Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate against guilty custody against guilty custody against guilty custody

Having possession of 3,275 2,499 1,129 3,223 2,648 1,284 2,917 2,246 1,112 a controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin. Supplying or offering 1,788 1,414 650 1,830 1,442 656 1,580 1,168 573 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin. Having possession of 787 544 410 410 304 217 693 451 338 a controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA. Supplying or offering 442 310 228 308 246 179 408 231 173 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): MDMA.

2000 2001 2002 Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate against guilty custody against guilty custody against guilty custody

Having possession of 2,169 1,802 808 1,799 1,358 618 1,787 1,388 547 a controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin. Supplying or offering 1,001 842 405 794 613 265 758 592 258 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin. Having possession of 1,081 736 520 1,352 960 690 1,064 830 578 a controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA. 1473W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1474W

2000 2001 2002

Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate against guilty custody against guilty custody against guilty custody

Supplying or offering 545 327 234 528 376 252 399 365 216 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): MDMA.

2003 2004 2005

Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate against guilty custody against guilty custody against guilty custody

Having possession of 2,050 1,470 475 1,525 1,247 420 1,588 993 272 a controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin.

Supplying or offering 740 522 222 617 456 156 588 393 135 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin.

Having possession of 947 746 461 726 603 394 649 557 342 a controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA.

Supplying or offering 306 219 127 261 172 100 245 187 91 to supply a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): MDMA.

2006 2007 Immediate Immediate Proceeded against Found guilty custody Proceeded against Found guilty custody

Having possession of a 1,594 957 240 1,614 958 232 controlled drug with intent to supply: Cannabis and cannabis resin. Supplying or offering to supply 622 385 101 554 367 101 a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): Cannabis and cannabis resin. Having possession of a 582 434 256 592 513 276 controlled drug with intent to supply: MDMA. Supplying or offering to supply 207 169 81 217 169 73 a controlled drug, (or being concerned in): MDMA. 1 These data are on the principal offence basis. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire police force were only able to submit sample data for persons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates courts for the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been excluded from the table. 4 Following reclassification in January 2004 to a class C drug, statutory maximum penalty for possession of cannabis was downgraded from five to two years. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis unit Table 2: The number of defendants found guilty at ail courts and sentenced to immediate custody for unlawful importation of a controlled drug in England and Wales, 1997 to 20071,2,3 Number of defendants 1997 1998 1999 2000 Immediate Immediate Immediate Immediate Found guilty custody Found guilty custody Found guilty custody Found guilty custody

Unlawful importation of a 1,239 974 1,190 1,032 1,171 1,072 1,165 1,115 drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 1475W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1476W

Number of defendants 2001 2002 2003 2004 Immediate Immediate Immediate Immediate Found guilty custody Found guilty custody Found guilty custody4 Found guilty custody4

Unlawful importation of a 1,648 1,511 1,599 1,588 1,063 1,075 975 977 drug controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971

Number of defendants 2005 2006 2007 Immediate Immediate Immediate Found guilty custody Found guilty custody Found guilty custody

Unlawful importation of a drug 1,026 979 835 787 783 762 controlled under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 1 These data are on the principal offence basis. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Staffordshire police force were only able to submit sample data for persons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates’ courts for the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been excluded from the table. 4 The immediate custody column exceeds those found guilty, as it may be the case that a defendant was found guilty in one year and sentenced in the following year. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis unit Table 3: The number of males and females serving sentences in all prison establishments in England and Wales for drug offences (as at 30 June each year), from 1997 to 2009 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Males Immediate 46,611 49,793 48,862 50,434 51,272 53,936 55,919 57,475 58,703 59,898 62,188 64,600 64,993 custodial sentence Drug offences 6,483 7,099 7,294 7,526 8,010 8,749 8,988 9,252 9,427 9,484 9,569 9,992 9,803 Drug offences 14 14 15 15 16 16 16 16 16 16 15 15 15 as percentage of all

Females Immediate 2,063 2,366 2,431 2,659 2,897 3,336 3,474 3,449 3,476 3,506 3,345 3,524 3,382 custodial sentence Drug offences 691 794 875 947 1,137 1,317 1,342 1,235 1,234 1,163 1,044 990 893 Drug offences 33 34 36 36 39 39 39 36 36 33 31 28 26 as percentage of all Source: Figures taken from Offender Management Caseload Statistics, table 7.2 for 2007 and 2008 up to the year 2008 and from monthly Ministry of Justice Bulletin for June 2009

Electoral Systems: Armed Forces show they are not eligible to vote in a general election. There are 400 personnel in the armed forces serving in David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan whose records show they are not eligible to Justice (1) how many of those serving in HM Armed vote in the next general election. Forces are not eligible to vote; and for what reasons; [292610] The Government are committed to facilitating the participation of all service personnel in the next general (2) how many of those serving in HM Armed Forces election. A current campaign run by the Electoral in Afghanistan will not be eligible to vote in the next Commission and the Ministry of Defence involves every general election; and for what reasons; [292611] armed forces unit, raising awareness of registration for (3) what preparations have been made to ensure that service personnel and their families. To further support those serving in HM Armed Forces in Afghanistan are this work, the Government have announced that they able to vote in the next UK general election. [292612] will extend the service declaration period from three to five years as soon as parliamentary time allows. I recently Mr. Wills: A person is eligible to vote in a parliamentary met armed forces families’ representatives and I have general election if they are: written to invite MPs with service establishments in aged 18 or over on polling day (a person can register once they their constituencies to meet with me and give their are 16 but cannot vote until their 18th birthday); views on improvements to service voting arrangements. a British or Commonwealth citizen resident in the UK; At present, the legislation allows service voters to vote or a citizen of the Irish Republic resident in the UK. by post or by proxy: we are working with the MOD and At 1 September 2009 the trained strength of the UK the Electoral Commission to ensure that we have in armed forces was 174,570. As at 14 October 2009, there place the most effective measures to support participation are 9,760 personnel in the armed forces whose records among service personnel. 1477W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1478W

Jury Service As the number of disqualifications reported for a given year may include disqualifications for summons Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice that were issued in previous years, a direct proportion (1) how many people were summoned for jury service of the total summons issued cannot be calculated. in each year since 1997; and how many and what Information prior to 2001 is not available. proportion were disqualified, broken down by reason Numbers on disqualifications are classified into the for disqualification; [294198] three different groups. A more detailed breakdown is (2) what proportion of those summoned for jury not available. service were disqualified on each ground for Annual statistics on jury summons are published by disqualification in each year since 1997. [294258] the Ministry of Justice in the annual command paper Bridget Prentice: The following table provides information “Judicial and Court Statistics”. The most recent edition, from the Jury Central Summoning Board on the number presenting statistics for 2008, was published in September of people summoned for jury service in the Crown 2009. Copies are available in the Library of the House court from 2001 to 2008. The table also provides information and from the Ministry of Justice website at: on the number of people who did not qualify for jury http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ service. judicialandcourtstatistics.htm

Number of people summoned for jury service in the Crown court, 2001-081 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Total number of summons 579,473 492,561 461,980 431,432 388,154 390,671 412,666 416,689 issued Disqualified—residency, 118,339 105,314 98,045 89,112 77,364 85,061 94,171 96,325 mental disorders, criminality Disqualified—on selection 48,271 59,892 58,830 55,410 49,765 53,031 58,900 72,854 Disqualified—failed Police 69 160 139 148 193 185 207 103 National Computer check 1 The number of disqualifications reported for a given year may include disqualifications for summons that were issued in previous years. Therefore, disqualifications as a percentage of the total number of summons issued within a year cannot be calculated. Source: Jury Central Summoning Board

Pleural Plaques: Compensation Government. It has also been important to look beyond the issue of pleural plaques itself to consider how Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for people who have been exposed to asbestos can be Justice pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for supported much more widely. We are actively considering Jarrow of 21 July 2009, Official Report, column 741, on all these issues in order to be in a position to publish a pleural plaques, when he plans to publish a final final response as soon as possible. response to the issue of compensation for people Prison Sentences diagnosed with pleural plaques; and what recent representations he has received from the UCATT Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice union on its members who have been exposed to (1) what the imprisonment rate was per 100,000 asbestos contamination at work. [294003] population in England and Wales in each year since 2001; [294197] Bridget Prentice: The House of Lords decision has (2) what information his Department holds on the raised extremely complex and difficult issues which imprisonment rate per 100,000 population in (a) have required very careful consideration within Scotland, (b) Northern Ireland and (c) the European Government. It has also been important to look beyond Union area. [294259] the issue of pleural plaques itself to consider how people who have been exposed to asbestos can be Maria Eagle: The following table gives information supported much more widely. We are actively considering on the numbers of prisoners in all prison establishments all these issues in order to be in a position to publish a with prison population ratios in England and Wales, final response as soon as possible. Scotland and Northern Ireland 2001-08, and the average The Justice Secretary has received several representations prison population ratio per 100,000 for the European from UCATT on asbestos related issues. Union where this published information is held within the Ministry of Justice. Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures are derived from the tables provided in Justice when he expects to announce his decision on the annual publications Prison Statistics in England compensation for those with pleural plaques; and if he and Wales 2001-02, and Offender Management Caseload will make a statement. [294723] Statistics, 2003-08. These publications can be found at the following website, and copies are held within the Bridget Prentice: The House of Lords decision has House of Commons Library: raised extremely complex and difficult issues which http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ have required very careful consideration within prisonandprobation.htm 1479W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1480W

Rate of prison population per 100,000 of general population 2001-08, England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland England and Wales Northern Ireland Scotland Average EU

2001 Prison population 67,056 910 6,137 — Rate per 100,000 population 127 51 115 — 2002 Prison population 71,324 1,026 6,404 — Rate per 100,000 population 137 61 126 92 2003 Prison population 72,992 1,160 6,524 — Rate per 100,000 population 138 70 131 — 2004 Prison population 75,057 1,274 6,805 — 2005 Rate per 100,000 population 142 72 133 130 2006 Prison population 76,896 1,301 6,792 — Rate per 100,000 population 144 76 133 — 2006 Prison population 79,085 1,433 7,111 — Rate per 100,000 population 147 82 139 — 2007 Prison population 80,692 1,468 7,291 — Rate per 100,000 population 149 83 142 123 2008 Prison population 83,406 1,507 7,741 — Rate per 100,000 population 153 85 150 124

The averages for the European Union are not strictly Non-natural drug related deaths in prison custody comparable due to the 2004 and 2007 enlargements. Other non- natural Self-inflicted Total

Prisoners Release 1997 — — 0 1998 — — 0 James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999 — 2 2 Justice how many applications for release from custody 2000 — 4 4 relating to people who pleaded guilty to a charge of 2001 — 2 2 manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility 2002 1 3 4 were approved by mental health tribunals in each of the 2003 — 3 3 last five years; and what the average time taken between 2004 — 3 3 their conviction and release of such people was in each 2005 1 5 6 such year. [294224] 2006 2 1 3 2007 — 3 3 Bridget Prentice: Neither the First tier Tribunal—Mental 2008 — 3 3 Health nor the Ministry of Justice Mental Health Unit Note: collects the information requested in this format. The The deaths reported in this table have been extracted, from the total First-tier Tribunal—Mental Health hears applications deaths in prison in the period in question. While every effort is made and references for people detained under the Mental to maintain a high level of accuracy, these figures may change as Health Act 1983 (as amended by the Mental Health Act subsequent information arises, such as verdicts. They should not be 2007). It does not record in its database the information read or taken as absolute figures. requested. This information could be provided only at disproportionate cost by searching through all files to The drug related self-inflicted deaths refer to cases obtain these details. In any event, these files will only where an overdose of any drug resulted in death. Three cover the last six months; anything beyond this date will of the four other non-natural deaths refer to situations have been destroyed in accordance with the Tribunals’ where any drug may have contributed to the death but record retention and disposal schedule. not in fatal amounts. The other case relates to a fatal attempt to smuggle drugs into prison. Prisoners: Death

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people died in prison of drug-related causes Prisoners: Mobile Phones in each year since 1997. [294154] Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Maria Eagle: The prison system for classifying deaths for Justice pursuant to the answer of 12 October 2009, does not include a specific category for drug related Official Report, columns 139-40W, on prisoners: deaths, which is a drug related death where the underlying mobile telephones, how many people have been cause is poisoning, drug abuse or dependence and any convicted for taking an unauthorised mobile telephone of the substances controlled under the Misuse of Drug or component part into a prison. [293387] Act (1971) are involved. However, information is recorded on deaths where an Maria Eagle: Under the Offender Management Act overdose of any drug played a part. The table shows the 2007 it is an offence with a penalty of up to two years’ numbers of non-natural deaths associated with a drugs imprisonment or an unlimited fine to bring a mobile overdose. phone or component part into a prison. 1481W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1482W

We know that from April 2008 to September 2009, Average and maximum caseloads per probation officer at there have been 142 arrests and 36 people charged with 31 December 2008 offences under the Offender Management Act 2007, Maximum caseload which includes taking mobile phones or components Average caseload per placed on any one probation officer on probation officer on into prison. Probation area 31 December 2008 31 December 2008 To provide the full information requested, it would be necessary to contact all prisons and young offender Essex 43 70 institutions, ask them to check their local records and Gloucestershire 28 71 to submit this information to headquarters. This could Greater Manchester 36 70 be carried out only at disproportionate cost. Hampshire 27 62 From April 2009, convictions under the Act have Hertfordshire 37 77 been included in the Home Office Counting Rules and Humberside 33 56 will be published in next year’s Annual Crime Statistics Kent 30 57 Bulletin (July 2010), providing a more accurate picture. Lancashire 39 79 Leicestershire 19 71 Prisoners: Pay Lincolnshire 21 41 London 35 53 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Merseyside 31 86 what expenditure was incurred on unemployment pay Norfolk 18 53 for prisoners in 2008-09. [294201] North Yorkshire 31 46 Northamptonshire 54 66 Maria Eagle: I regret that the information requested Northumbria 25 69 is not held centrally and could be obtained only by Nottinghamshire 28 66 approaching 135 prisons separately which would be at South Yorkshire 30 58 disproportionate cost. Prison Service Order (PSO) 4460 Staffordshire 32 44 (Prisoners’ Pay) sets out a minimum unemployed rate Suffolk 27 49 of £2.50 a week. The PSO has been placed in the House Surrey 31 46 Library and can also be viewed at the following web Sussex 54 85 address: Teesside 36 64 http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/resourcecentre/psispsos/ Thames Valley 30 55 listpsos/index.asp?startrow=51 Warwickshire 26 52 Prisoners’ pay policy is set out in PSO 4460. Prisoners West Mercia 32 84 are eligible for unemployment pay if they are willing to West Midlands 35 70 work but the establishment cannot find suitable employment West Yorkshire 29 61 or the prisoner is unable to work. Those who refuse to Wiltshire 30 54 work must not receive any pay. Dyfed Powys 23 38 Probation Gwent 27 47 North Wales 39 66 South Wales 38 61 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the (a) average, (b) minimum and (c) maximum offender caseload was for a probation officer in each probation area in each year since 2002. [294205] Remand in Custody: Young People

Maria Eagle: Figures for the average and maximum David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for caseloads per probation officer in each probation area Justice what recent progress has been made in relation at 31 December 2008 are set out in the following table. to the proposal in the Youth Crime Action plan to No data are available for minimum caseloads; and delegate the budget for court-ordered secure remands data for average and maximum caseloads are unavailable to local authorities; and if he will make a statement; for previous years. [292608] Average and maximum caseloads per probation officer at (2) what recent assessment he has made of the 31 December 2008 implications for vulnerable young people of delegating Maximum caseload the budget for court-ordered secure remands to local Average caseload per placed on any one authorities; and if he will make a statement. [292609] probation officer on probation officer on Probation area 31 December 2008 31 December 2008 Maria Eagle: Responses to the Youth Crime Action Avon and Somerset 31 72 Plan consultation indicated that we should look broadly Bedfordshire 28 48 at how we can best incentivise local authorities to invest Cambridgeshire 52 91 in alternatives to custody. The Youth Justice Board is, Cheshire 44 58 therefore, exploring options as to how we might do this, Cumbria 31 54 including the potential of devolving budgets for Court Derbyshire 38 49 Ordered Secure Remands as set out in the Youth Crime Devon and Cornwall 31 92 Action Plan and the potential for devolving wider custody Dorset 48 57 budgets. We recognise this is a complex issue and proper Durham 33 55 consideration needs to be given to the implications of any changes to the placement of vulnerable young 1483W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1484W people. That is why the YouthJustice Board is undertaking The Adjudicator’s Office considers compensation in a full analysis before providing advice to ministers in each case as part of the complaint handling process; no due course. separate application is required. As such no separate figures for compensation applications are available. Vetting: Scotland Child Tax Credit: Overseas Residence Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many employees in his Department and its Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer agencies in England and Wales were subject to a basic (1) in respect of how many children ordinarily resident disclosure check by Disclosure Scotland in each year outside the UK payments of child tax credit are being since 2002. [294158] made; and what checks on the residence of children are made before payment of such tax credits; [293174] Bridget Prentice: In April 2007, the requirement for Baseline Personnel Security Standard (BPSS) came into (2) what his policy is on obtaining evidence of a effect. In May 2007 the Ministry of Justice was established child’s country of residence in relation to payment of and implemented BPSS with a Disclosure Scotland child benefit; and what information he has on the security check ratio of 1:5 of all new joiners (who are number of children receiving child benefit who are not not subject to a Criminal Record Bureau standard or ordinarily resident in the UK. [293170] enhanced security checks). Mr. Timms [holding answer 15 October 2009]: The central recording of the numbers of Disclosure Information about the payment of child tax credit to Scotland checks commenced from 1 October 2008 and families with children resident outside the UK is only up to 19 October 2009 there have been 505 checks. For available at disproportionate cost. Data is available on the period 2002 to September 2008 it is not possible to child benefit awards to EEA nationals in respect of provide the number of Disclosure Scotland checks because children resident in another member state and I refer the Ministry holds no central records for it and its the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. predecessor organisations. To obtain this information Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on 13 October will require the examination of all employee records 2009, Official Report, column 787W. and this will incur a disproportionate cost. Child benefit and child tax credit is intended to help The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) families in the UK. Generally, therefore, it is not payable security vetting framework has not and does not currently in respect of children resident outside the UK. However, use Disclosure Scotland to undertake any checks for the under EC coordinating regulations on social security organisation. NOMS uses the Criminal Records Bureau for migrant workers and their families, which the UK (CRB) to conduct their minimum baseline security checks. has administered since it joined the European Economic Community in 1973, a European Economic Area (EEA) national working in one member state can claim family benefits (child tax credit together with child benefit) in TREASURY that member state in respect of members of their family resident in other member states. Adjudicator’s Office: Complaints All claims for family benefits are subject to a wide range of checks throughout the life of each claim. Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Where claims for family benefits are made under the EC Exchequer what the average time taken to reach a Regulations on behalf of children living in another decision by the Adjudicator’s Office following the member state, HMRC carry out further checks to verify receipt of a complaint from a member of the public in the information provided by the customer to prevent (a) respect of a complaint relating to the Tax Credit erroneous or fraudulent claims. These checks include (b) Office and an application for compensation from requiring the relevant authorities in the member state the Tax Credit Office was in each of the last five years. where the worker’s family resides to confirm the [294630] composition of the family and to find out whether there are any family benefits in payment in that other member Mr. Timms [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The state. average time the Adjudicator’s Office takes to reach a decision on a case, measured from acceptance of the complaint, for tax credits is: Child Trust Fund: Leeds

Weeks John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many children in Leeds West constituency had 2004-05 25 received child trust fund payments on the latest date for 2005-06 18 which figures are available. [294018] 2006-07 22 2007-08 21 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The most recent constituency 2008-09 39 level statistics on child trust fund accounts can be The Adjudicator’s Office annual report sets out the viewed on the HM Revenue and Customs website at: reasons behind the recent increase in time taken to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ctf/cons-stats-oct08.pdf reach a decision, and the plans in place to address this. and show that 4,534 children born before 6 April 2007 The annual report is available at in the Leeds West constituency have a child trust fund http://www.adjudicatorsoffice.gov.uk/pdf/report2009.pdf account. 1485W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1486W

Departmental Procurement challenges have been upheld; and how much revenue accrued to the Exchequer from the imposition of such Mr. Prisk: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer penalties. [294125] what percentage of procurement contracts (a) his Department and (b) its agencies awarded to small Mr. Timms: The precise information requested is businesses in (i) 2006-07, (ii) 2007-08, (iii) 2008-09 and available only at disproportionate cost as HM Revenue (iv) 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. [293243] and Customs’ systems do not allow for identification of penalties imposed specifically due to a difference in the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: It would not be possible to initial valuation of a property and the final sale of price identify from records held centrally by HM Treasury or of that property its agencies which businesses were classified as small or Inheritance tax (IHT) rules require all assets—including medium-sized enterprises at the time when contracts property—in an estate to be valued for IHT purposes at were awarded to them without incurring disproportionate the point immediately before the deceased’s death. Where costs. a property is subsequently sold within four years of this for less than the value on which IHT was paid ‘loss on Departmental Visits Abroad sale’ relief may be claimed. In the last 12 months penalties have been charged in David Simpson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 17 cases as a result of undervaluation of some part of how much his Department spent on overnight the estate, resulting in approximately £120,000 of additional accommodation for (a) Ministers and (b) officials revenue accruing to the Exchequer while overseas in each of the last three years. [294697] The numbers of penalties challenged and those subsequently upheld are not available. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The requested information is not available, as the Treasury’s accounting system does not record accommodation costs separately from subsistence Valuation Office: Expenditure spending. Since 1999, the Government have published on an Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the annual basis a list of all overseas visits by Cabinet Exchequer how much the Valuation Office Agency has Ministers costing in excess of £500, as well as the total spent on its automated valuation model for (a) council cost of all ministerial travel overseas. Copies of the lists tax and (b) business rates. [294653] are available in the Libraries of the House. All travel is undertaken in accordance with the Civil Service Ian Pearson: The Valuation Office Agency do not Management Code and the Ministerial Code. record these costs separately for council tax and business rates. Northern Rock Valuation Office: Rightmove Mr. Todd: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the independent valuation of Northern Rock will Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer be completed. [294006] pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Ludlow of 14 September 2009, Official Report, column 2134W, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I refer the hon. Member to the on the Valuation Office: data protection, whether the written answer I gave to the hon. Member for South Information Commissioner’s Personal Data Flowchart Derbyshire on 19 June 2009, Official Report, column guidance on domestic property data was taken into 548W. account when the Valuation Office Agency signed its contract with Rightmove.co.uk to obtain property data. Royal Mint [294366]

Lorely Burt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ian Pearson: The contract is between HMRC and what recent progress has been made on the disposal of Rightmove.co.uk and predates the Personal Data Flowchart the Royal Mint; and if he will make a statement. Guidance. [291894] Welfare Tax Credits: Fraud Ian Pearson: Royal Mint is owned 100 per cent. by Government. It is currently vesting the business of the Royal Mint Trading Fund into a company structure, Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the intention of completing the process by the end (1) how much and what percentage of tax credits overpaid of this year. Vesting will have no impact on the ownership as a result of fraud have been recovered in each of the of the Royal Mint. last five years; and if he will make a statement; [293573] (2) how much of the sum overpaid in tax credits as a Taxation: Property result of fraud has been classified as (a) recoverable and (b) unrecoverable in each of the last five years; Mr. Swayne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and if he will make a statement. [293574] how many penalties have been imposed by HM Revenue and Customs on estates as a consequence of a Mr. Timms: The precise information requested is not difference between the official valuation of a property available. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) does not and the final sale price in the last 12 months; how many keep separate records on the level of recoverable debt such penalties have been challenged; how many such arising from compliance checks. 1487W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1488W

Information on tax credits debt and HMRC’s estimates This report, published on 19 August 2009, has been of tax credits error and fraud are provided in Trust placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS Statement section of HMRC’s departmental accounts. Information Centre website at: HMRC’s departmental accounts for the last five years www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/clinicaldental0809q3 are available at: 2008-09 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/hmrc-accs-0809.pdf Health what the budget for NHS dental services has 2007-08 been in (a) Vale of York constituency, (b) Yorkshire http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/hmrc-dep-acct0708.pdf and the Humber and (c) England in each year since 2006-07 1997. [294576] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/hmrc-06-07-acc.pdf 2005-06 Ann Keen: Prior to April 2006, most primary dental services were provided under former General Dental http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/ channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel Service (GDS) arrangements. These were demand led =pageVAT_ShowContent&propertyType=document services where the pattern of dental expenditure was &columns=1&id=HMCE_PROD1_025710 largely determined by where dentists chose to practice, 2004-05 and how much national health service work they chose to undertake. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/ir-report2005.pdf The NHS Information Centre for health and social care published the following report on 26 March 2008: “NHS Expenditure for General Dental Services and HEALTH Personal Dental Services: England 1997-98—2005-06”. Dental Services This report has already been placed in the Library and is also available on the NHS Information Centre website Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health at: what percentage of dentists graduating from medical www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalexpendl997to2006 schools in England were not working in the NHS (a) The report includes information on primary dental three and (b) five years after qualification in each year care expenditure by parliamentary constituency, primary since 1997 for which figures are available. [294355] care trust (PCT) and strategic health authority (SHA) Ann Keen: We do not hold information about the area for 1997-98 to 2005-06 in Tables A3 and B3 of number of dentists working privately, but almost all Annex 3. Table A3 relates to ‘gross’ expenditure and new dental graduates undertake one year’s vocational table B3 relates to ‘net’ expenditure. ‘Gross’ expenditure training in a dental practice with a major national refers to the full cost of the payments recorded; ‘net’ health service commitment. We are also aware that it is expenditure reflects the cost of these payments to the some years before a newly qualified dentist can build up NHS after the deduction of income from NHS dental a significant private practice and that most dentists charges paid by patients. work in mixed practice providing both NHS and private This information is based on the old contractual dentistry. There is no evidence of a shortage of dentists arrangements which were in place up to and including willing to take NHS contracts when they are offered. 31 March 2006. Further notes to aid interpretation of the information are shown in the ‘Contents and Notes’ Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for page of Annex 3. The data will not be directly comparable Health what estimate he has made of the number of with data based on the new dental service framework tooth (a) extractions and (b) fillings carried out under introduced from 1 April 2006. the NHS in each year since 1997. [294575] The former GDS arrangements were replaced with Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format effect from 1 April 2006, when PCTs were given requested. responsibility for planning and commissioning primary dental services and provided with local, devolved, dental The estimated full year number of clinical dental budgets. The primary dental service funding allocations items delivered, by patient type during 2003-04 and made to the North Yorkshire and York PCT, the aggregate 2008-09, is available in Tables 1 and 2 for England and allocations to all PCTs within the Yorkshire and the Tables 7 and 8 for Wales in the “Provisional Clinical Humber SHA, and the aggregate allocations to the Dental Report, England and Wales: Quarter 3, 31 December NHS in England, for each of the four years since PCTs 2008—Experimental Statistics” report. assumed full responsibility for primary dental care services, This publication carries the label “Experimental are in the following table. These are net of income from statistics”. Experimental statistics are new official statistics dental charges paid by patients, which are retained undergoing evaluation. They are published in order to locally by PCTs to supplement the resources available involve users and stakeholders in their development and for dentistry. PCTs may also dedicate some of their as a means to build in quality at an early stage. other NHS resources to dentistry if they consider this Note that as the nature of the dental contract was an appropriate local priority. Allocations are not different in 2003-04 to 2008-09, covering a differing apportioned by individual constituencies or towns; PCTs range of services, with different data collection practices determine the distribution of resources within their and funding regimes in place, there are a number of area on the basis of local needs and priorities. Actual reasons why figures are not fully comparable across the expenditure levels are determined by the pattern and two years. The figures published should be treated with type of services commissioned by each PCT and are the caution appropriate to all experimental data. recorded in the notes to PCT accounts. 1489W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1490W

Primary dental service net funding allocations Dental Services: Standards £000 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for North Yorkshire 25,195 26,894 30,088 31,392 Health how much funding has been recovered by the and York PCT NHS as a consequence of targets for level of units of Yorkshire and the 186,918 198,973 222,180 237,653 dental activity not being met in each year since 2006. Humber SHA [294572] England 1,764,700 1,872,442 2,081,000 2,257,000 Notes: Ann Keen: Providers of national health service dental 1. The PCT allocation figure for 2006-07 is the aggregate of the services have contracts with primary care trusts (PCTs) allocations made initially to the Craven, Harrogate and Rural District, that set out the agreed annual contract sum and the Hambleton and Richmondshire, Scarborough, Whitby and Ryedale, and Selby and York PCTs before they merged to form the North corresponding level of services to be provided over the Yorkshire and York PCT with effect from 1 October 2006. course of the year. These annual service levels are 2. PCTs are awarded separate funding allocations to meet the cost of expressed mainly in terms of ’units of dental activity’, any dental vocational trainees who may be placed with dental practices which measure courses of treatment according to their in their area. The funding totals for the Yorkshire and Humber SHA, relative complexity. Dental providers who under-deliver and England, include funding for vocational trainees. by up to 4 per cent. may carry this forward and make up Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the activity in the following year. Where a provider has Health how many units of dental activity in (a) band delivered less than 96 per cent. of the agreed annual 1, (b) band 2 and (c) band 3 have been carried out by service level, it is at the PCTs discretion whether the dentists in (i) Vale of York constituency, (ii) North undelivered activity is carried forward to the following Yorkshire and (iii) England in each year since 2006. year or an appropriate proportion of the annual contract sum is refunded to the PCT. This is a matter for PCTs to [294577] decide locally in the light of individual circumstances, and their decisions are not collected or held centrally. Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format requested. The number of units of dental activity performed in Dental Services: Working Hours England by treatment band in 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 is available in Table B3 of Annex 3 of the Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health “NHS Dental Statistics for England: 2008-09” report. with reference to paragraph 18 of his Department’s Information is provided by primary care trust and evidence to the 2010 review of doctors’ and dentists’ strategic health authority but is not available at constituency remuneration, how many hours of NHS work dentists level. This information is based on the new dental conducted in England in total in (a) each calendar contractual arrangements, introduced on 1 April 2006. year since 1997 for which figures are available and (b) This report, published on 19 August 2009, has already each financial year since 1997-98 for which figures are been placed in the Library and is available on the NHS available. [294356] Information Centre website at: Ann Keen: Information for the annual hours of national www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0809 health service dental work is not available. Information on the normal weekly hours of dentists Dental Services: Children in the period since 1997 is set out in Table 19 of the NHS Information Centre (IC) for health and social care Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for publication entitled “Dental Working Hours England Health what estimate he has made of the number of and Wales 2006-07 and 2007-08”. The publication has schoolchildren who received (a) screenings and (b) been placed in the Library and is also available on the advice from dentists providing NHS services in each NHS Information Centre website at: year since 1997. [294574] www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalworkinghours0708 The IC’s report records that a study in 2000 found Ann Keen: There is no information held centrally on that dentists worked an average of 39.4 hours; the IC’s which we could base an estimate of the number of Dental Working Hours Analysis recorded averages of children who still receive dental screening examinations 36.6 hours in 2006-07 and 37.0 hours in 2007-08. There in school. The National Screening Committee advised were differences in the coverage of the surveys. that that there is no evidence to support universal screening for dental disease among children aged six to The 2000 survey does not give a complete split of nine years. In the light of this expert advice, we have weekly hours into NHS and private dental work and so concentrated on targeted initiatives like the Brushing a weekly NHS hours estimate is not available for the for Life scheme which provides for families with young year 2000. children to receive toothpaste and brushes at child For 2006-07 and 2007-08 dentists provided estimates health clinics or Sure Start centres, together with advice of the percentage of time spent on NHS work: 71.4 per on how the children can be seen by a dentist. cent. in 2006-07 and 70.8 per cent. in 2007-08 so that Data published by the NHS Information Centre for weekly NHS hours were 26.1 hours and 26.2 hours health and social care showed that 7,643,000 children respectively. and young people aged under 18 were seen by a primary The IC in its publication “NHS Dental Statistics for care national health service dentist in the 24-month England”, a copy of which has already been placed in period ending June 2009. This is equivalent to 69.5 per the Library, report that 20,815 dentists performed cent. of the population aged under 18. some NHS dental activity in 2006-07 in England and 1491W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1492W

21,343 dentists some dental activity in 2007-08. However, Care Service that is universal, fair, affordable, clear and some of these dentists did not work for the whole year. helps people to live their lives the way they want to. The So these figures cannot be used to produce estimates of Green Paper applies to all adults in England. total annual hours worked. It is vital that everybody gets involved in the Big Care In researching the information requested we have, Debate to have their say on the future direction of the however, noticed a small error in paragraph 18 of the new care and support system. The consultation closes Department’s evidence to the Doctors’ and Dentists’ on 13 November 2009. Review Body (DDRB) for the 2010 review. As noted, the survey which collected data for 2006-07 and 2007-08 (a single questionnaire for the two years) in fact showed a small increase in the average hours worked for the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT NHS by dentists doing some NHS work from 26.1 hours in 2006-07 to 26.2 hours in 2007-08. We shall be writing Copenhagen Summit to the DDRB to correct this error. Mental Health Services: Leeds 10. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what discussions he has Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for had with his EU counterparts on the international Health what estimate he has made of the amount spent development aspects of the forthcoming Copenhagen on transferring patients with mental health problems climate change summit. [294279] from Leeds to treatment centres outside the Leeds area during the period April 2007 to March 2009. [294730] Mr. Douglas Alexander: The General Affairs and External Relations Council has two sessions each year Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. on development issues. Climate change was a focus of This information may be obtainable direct from the the May meeting and we will again be looking at climate Leeds Primary Care Trust. change at the November meeting, as well as ensuring that we are represented at these meetings. I take numerous Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunities to discuss the road to Copenhagen with Health what steps he is taking to improve standards of my EU counterparts. mental health care in Leeds. [294731] Maternal and Child Mortality Phil Hope: The responsibility for providing healthcare, including specialist mental health care services, rests 11. Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for with primary care trusts (PCTs). The Department provides International Development what assistance his Department funding for PCTs to commission, or provide healthcare gives in (a) drafting and (b) implementing national for their local populations from national health service plans for the reduction of maternal, newborn and child or independent sector providers. We are not prescriptive mortality in countries in receipt of aid from his Department. about how individual PCTs spend their budgets and [294280] each PCT decides its own spending levels for specific healthcare treatments and services. Mr. Michael Foster: Maternal and child health is a Since 2001-02, total planned investment in adult mental priority for the Department for International Development health services has increased by 50 per cent. (£2.0 billion), (DFID). In Africa and Asia we work closely with putting in place the extra services and staff needed to partner governments in developing national health plans transform mental health services. Nine consecutive years to tackle maternal and child health and deliver better of increased spending by the NHS on mental health services for the poorest. services has provided more staff, and increasing numbers At the UN General Assembly, we pledged £100 million of people with a severe mental illness are receiving to assist Nepal, Malawi, Ghana, Liberia, Burundi and treatment from community teams outside of hospital Sierra Leone to expand access to free health care. This settings. will save millions of women and children’s lives. Our significant investment in the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies programme (IAPT), will see Food Security: Africa annual funding rising to £173 million, 3,600 extra therapists trained and 900,000 more people treated by 2011. This investment in IAPT will help to add to the existing 12. Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of psychological therapies, increase capacity, International Development what steps his Department reduce waiting times and drive up quality standards. is taking to ensure security in the supply of food for people in developing countries in Africa. [294281] Social Services: Disabled Mr. Thomas: The UK supports agriculture, rural Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health development and food security programmes in 18 countries whether he plans to reform the care and support system across Africa, contributing £73 million last year including for disabled people of working age; and if he will make £20 million on food security in Ethiopia. We are providing a statement. [294740] additional assistance this year for the Horn of Africa. We provide support through multilateral institutions. Phil Hope: The Care and Support Green Paper “Shaping We support Africa’s vision for a doubling of agricultural the Future of Care Together”, published on 14 July production over the next 20 years to secure food supplies 2009, set out the Government’s vision for a National over the longer term. 1493W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1494W

Millennium Development Goals 82 per cent. of the population now live in a district with access to basic healthcare across the country, compared with 9 per cent. in 2003. As a result, an estimated 40,000 more Afghan 13. Mr. Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for children will see their fifth birthdays this year compared to International Development what recent assessment he 2002. has made of the Government’s contribution to the achievement of the millennium development goals. Departmental Rail Travel [294282] Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Douglas Alexander: The UK Government are International Development how much his Department committed to delivery of the millennium development spent on first class rail travel for officials in each of the goals through its public service agreement on international last three years; and if he will make a statement. poverty reduction. Our July White Paper set out how we [293335] will respond to new challenges building a platform for further action on poverty beyond 2015. The latest Mr. Douglas Alexander: The requested information assessment of the Government’s contribution to the could not be provided without incurring disproportionate achievement of the millennium development goals is cost. contained in DFID’s 2009 annual report, also published Eritrea in July and available in the Library of the House and on the DFID website: www.dfid.gov.uk Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what the Government’s policy is on the provisions of the development agreement reached between Aid Target the European Commission and Eritrea in September 2009; and if he will make a statement. [293770]

14. Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Thomas: The UK Government welcome the new International Development what progress has been European Commission Country Strategy for Eritrea made towards the achievement of the UK’s target of that it signed with the Government of Eritrea in September spending 0.7 per cent. of gross domestic product on 2009. This will provide ¤122 million between 2009 and overseas aid. [294283] 2013 to help the Eritrean people improve governance and reduce poverty and food insecurity. Over half of Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Government remain the population live below the national poverty line. committed to delivering 0.7 per cent. of GNI as official The development co-operation is part of the broader development assistance by 2013. We have recently partnership between the European Union and Eritrea announced plans to introduce legislation to ensure the based on the Cotonou Agreement of June 2000. As part commitment is met. In 2008 UK official development of Article 8 of this agreement, there will be political assistance stood at 0.43 per cent. of GNI in line with dialogue between the parties on political and human the trajectory set out in the 2007 comprehensive spending rights issues. review and will reach at least 0.56 per cent. by 2010-11. Eritrea: International Broadcasting

Afghanistan: Infant Mortality Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of 14 September Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009, Official Report, column 496, on Eritrea: international International Development what assistance his Department broadcasting, what requests for funding to support has given to the Government of Afghanistan to help in Radio Erena his Department has received in the last reducing levels of infant mortality. [293682] three years; and if he will make a statement. [293766]

Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Department for Mr. Thomas: The Department for International International Development (DFID) supports the Afghan Development (DFID) has not received any requests for Government in reducing levels of infant mortality through funding to support Radio Erena in the last three years. the Afghanistan Reconstruction Fund (ARTF). DFID Eritrea: Overseas Aid has provided £360 million to the ARTF since 2002, and is planning a further £165 million to 2013. This will cover around 14 per cent. of the total operating costs of Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International the Afghan health sector. Development what assessment he has made of the freedom of access for non-government organisations In Helmand, the UK is supporting the Afghan and aid agencies to assist people in Eritrea; and if he Government’s efforts to improve health care through will make a statement. [293769] the cross-departmental conflict fund and the provincial reconstruction team. Mr. Thomas: Freedom for non-government organisations Government of Afghanistan programmes in the health and aid agencies to operate within Eritrea is limited due sector have achieved the following results: to constraints put in place by the Government of Eritrea. Full immunisation of children has risen from 15 per cent. in The Government of Eritrea does not consider these 2003 to 27 per cent. in 2006 organisations to have a significant role to play in either The number of Afghan midwives has increased from 467 in the development of the country or in addressing relief 2002 to 2,167 in 2008; needs. After agreeing a limited travel itinerary with the 1495W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1496W

Eritrean authorities, Department for International programme, a fast track programme aiming to teach Development (DFID) officials were able to visit partner people to read in 50-hours over a period of 30-days. In agencies in Eritrea in August of this year. Yemen, DFID and participating donors are financing a substantial basic education programme which includes Georgia: Armed Conflict support to both primary and adult basic education.

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Party Conferences International Development what steps his Department has taken to assist those displaced as a result of the Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for conflict in Georgia in August 2008. [293123] International Development whether any of his Department’s non-departmental public bodies sent Mr. Michael Foster: In response to the conflict in representatives to attend one or more political party August 2008 the Department for International Development conferences in 2009. [293479] (DFID) initially committed £2 million to humanitarian agencies providing assistance to affected civilians in Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Georgia and the Russian Federation (RF). Of this Development’s non-departmental public body, the £1 million was allocated to the International Committee Commonwealth Scholarship Commission (CSC), did of the Red Cross for their operations in Georgia and not send representatives to any of the political party North Ossetia in the RF. £550,000 was allocated to the conferences. United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), £250,000 was given to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, and £200,000 to the Hazardous Areas Life-Support COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Organisation (HALO). Communications Annual Report 2008-09 In December 2008, DFID provided a further £2 million humanitarian aid to be channelled through UNHCR. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for This provided Internally Displaced People (both pre Communities and Local Government with reference to and post 2008 conflict) with “winterised” shelter and his Department’s Communications Annual Report 2008-09, continued access to basic provisions. if he will place in the Library a copy of the evaluation report for (a) the Home buying and Home selling Iraq Committee of Inquiry communications campaign, (b) the eco-towns campaign and (c) the promoting take-up of online council services Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for on waste and recycling campaign. [292888] International Development (1) whether he has received a request to give evidence to the Chilcot Inquiry; Barbara Follett: The information is as follows: [293559] (a) The purpose of the Home buying and selling (2) how many (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his campaign was to provide information to buyers, sellers Department have received requests to give evidence to and estate agents about changes in the law, and directed the Chilcot Inquiry; and if he will make a statement. people online for more detail. It was evaluated through [293564] the number of visits to the campaign website for which I refer the hon. Member to the information on the Mr. Michael Foster: I refer the right hon. Member to Department’s website published at the time of the the answer that will be given by my right hon. Friend, Department’s 2008-09 Annual Report: the Prime Minister today. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ 1298507.pdf Literacy: Developing Countries (b) The purpose of the eco-towns campaign was to promote the consultation process. It was evaluated through Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of visits to the consultation micro-site at International Development what recent steps he has 34,189 visitors and the number of consultation responses taken to improve levels of literacy in the world’s at 7,500 at the end of the consultation period. 10 poorest countries. [294293] (c) The evaluation report on the online council waste and recycling campaign will be placed in the Library. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) is committed in partnership with Community Infrastructure Levy other donors, to the realisation of all six goals of the Education for All (EFA) agenda. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Through our long-term commitment to provide Communities and Local Government whether the £8.5 billion in support of education overseas to 2015, Community Infrastructure Levy will be applied to new we are supporting poor countries to invest in quality (a) affordable housing and (b) social housing basic education, including lower secondary, to ensure developments. [294086] that children attain the fundamental skills they need to participate in social and economic life. Mr. Ian Austin: The Government are currently seeking DFID has recently directly supported adult literacy views on proposals as to whether and how the Community programmes in Uganda, Kenya, India and Yemen, as Infrastructure Levy should apply to affordable or social well as through humanitarian aid programmes. In India, housing developments in its consultation regarding the DFID supports the accelerated Tara Akshar Reading introduction of the Community Infrastructure Levy 1497W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1498W which was launched on 30 July 2009 and will conclude John Healey: The Department has received a number on 23 October 2009. No final decisions have yet been of representations concerning the energy efficiency and made. environmental performance ratings achieved by dwellings that use air source heat pumps (ASHPs) as a source of Council Tax: Valuation heating on Energy Performance Certificates (EPCs). Reduced Data Standard Assessment Procedure (RDSAP), Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for the methodology used to generate EPCs for existing Communities and Local Government how many of the dwellings, takes into account a wide range of construction Valuation Office Agency’s full-time equivalent staff materials and building features, including ASHPs. RDSAP work on valuations for council tax purposes. [294099] is derived from Standard Assessment Procedure (SAP) both of which are kept under constant review and Barbara Follett: In the last full year, 2008-09, the upgraded on a regular basis to take account of new Valuation Office Agency used 714 full-time equivalent building technologies. staff for council tax purposes. Departmental Responsibilities English Partnerships: Redundancy Pay

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which Minister Communities and Local Government (1) how much in his Department has responsibility for architectural English Partnerships spent on redundancy payments policy. [292691] when it was dissolved; and how many people received such payments; [292619] Mr. Ian Austin: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of (2) how many people made redundant by English State for Culture, Media and Sport has responsibility Partnerships have subsequently been hired as employees, for building design; and that Department is responsible contractors or consultants by the Homes and Communities for architectural design policy and sponsors the Commission Agency. [292643] for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE). However, Communities and Local Government also Mr. Ian Austin: When English Partnerships dissolved recognises the value of architecture, and the importance it spent £368,000 on redundancy payments in relation that good design in architecture and the built environment to five staff. Information on redundancy payments on plays in creating sustainable communities. My right the three most senior members of staff, including its hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Chief Executive, was reported on in its final set of Local Government has appointed me to take forward accounts, for 2008-09, which was published on its website this work for this Department. 1 also have the responsibility at: for the Department’s work with CABE, which we jointly http://www.englishpartnerships.co.uk/ sponsor with DCMS to ensure that the architectural corporateinformation.htm design agenda is embedded across Government. Copies were also lodged in the Vote Office. In addition, the Secretary of State for Communities The Homes and Communities Agency has no record is accountable to Parliament for the Architects’ Registration centrally that any of these former staff have subsequently Board (ARB). This is the UK’s Statutory Regulator for been hired by the Homes and Communities Agency as Architects, and is responsible for the registration of employees, contractors or consultants. architects and the prescription of architectural courses as described in the Architects Act 1997. Fire Services Eco-Towns Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Communities and Local Government how much his answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough of 10 March Department and its agencies have spent on each budgetary 2009, Official Report, column 315W,on the New Dimension heading related to communications, marketing, public Programme, if he will place in the Library a copy of the relations, design and media on eco-towns. [292557] report by NERA UK Ltd on the New Dimension Programme. [289629] John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the information published on the Department’s website alongside its Mr. Malik: The report will be placed in the Library of 2009 annual report: the House shortly. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ 1298507.pdf Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Energy Performance Certificates he has made of the effectiveness of the FireGuard project. [292893] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what representations Mr. Malik: The Fireguard Project Board, chaired by his Department has received on Energy Performance the Chief Fire Officers Association, assessed the technical Certificates taking into account energy efficiency derived and financial aspects of the project, including affordability. from air source heat pumps; and if he will review the Firebuy, the national procurement body for the English methodology used to rate air source heat pumps for Fire and Rescue Service, undertook the procurement home information pack purposes. [294429] process for the project at the request of 33 fire and 1499W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1500W rescue authorities, led by the Chief Fire Officers Association. in the event of a strike by firefighters; which appliances This Department did not make any separate assessment would be used; and if he will make a statement. [294132] of the project. Mr. Malik: The National Framework for the Fire and Rescue Service states that fire and rescue authorities Fire Services: Crimes of Violence must have a plan to provide such level of cover as it regards appropriate during emergencies, including industrial Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for action, and ensure the availability of all necessary vehicles Communities and Local Government how many sickness and equipment. Unless the fire and rescue authority has days were taken as a result of an assault on a Fire alternative arrangements, we would expect such vehicles Service staff member in each fire and rescue authority to be sourced from their existing fleets. in the most recent year for which figures are available; Fire Services: Manpower how many days were lost per firefighter on average due to assault in that year; and what the estimated cost of Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities such losses is to each fire authority was in 2008-09. and Local Government how many firefighters were [289294] employed at fire stations in (a) each local authority area in the East of England and (b) England in each of Mr. Malik: The information requested is not held the last 10 years. [289395] centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Malik: The numbers of firefighters based at fire stations is not held centrally and could be provided only Fire Services: Industrial Disputes at disproportionate cost. The total numbers of whole-time and retained firefighters Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for for each fire authority is held centrally and are shown in Communities and Local Government what contingency the following tables for (a) fire authorities in the east of arrangements have been made for the use of fire appliances England and (b) England.

Number of whole-time firefighters, 1999 to 2008 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Bedfordshire and Luton 315 305 326 334 319 330 323 317 321 330 Cambridgeshire 263 263 276 274 273 285 273 258 277 278 Essex 914 923 937 948 937 920 936 981 945 943 Hertfordshire 557 581 565 570 564 574 564 569 560 575 Norfolk 282 298 310 308 288 295 281 303 306 302 Suffolk 256 249 248 253 250 244 257 272 257 259 East of England 2,587 2,619 2,662 2,687 2,631 2,648 2,634 2,700 2,666 2,687 England 31,918 31,615 31,597 31,592 31,631 31,856 31,053 30,744 30,804 30,824 Sources: (i) HM Chief Inspector for Fire’s Annual Report and (ii) Fire and Rescue Service Operational Statistics Bulletin

Number of retained duty system firefighters, 1999 to 2008 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Bedfordshire and Luton 131 126 138 151 139 106 150 154 157 170 Cambridgeshire 365 364 371 344 327 350 369 373 365 354 Essex 457 460 464 477 472 475 488 534 548 543 Hertfordshire 267 266 265 261 208 268 257 261 228 256 Norfolk 448 443 443 405 426 435 501 514 527 534 Suffolk 400 396 404 401 415 399 425 452 487 493 East of England 2,068 2,055 2,085 2,039 1,987 2,033 2,190 2,288 2,312 2,350 England 13,022 13,021 13,097 13,002 13,048 13,015 13,543 13,927 14,212 14,166 Sources: (i) HM Chief Inspector for Fire’s Annual Report and (ii) Fire and Rescue Service Operational Statistics Bulletin

Fire Services: Standards FRAs are required by the Fire and Rescue Service National Framework to have in place and maintain an Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Integrated Risk Management Plan (IRMP) which reflects Communities and Local Government what recent local need and sets out plans to tackle effectively both guidance his Department has given to fire and rescue existing and potential risks to communities. The IRMP authorities on their Service Improvement Plans. enables the authority to tailor cover for fire and other [292807] incidents to local circumstances—evaluating where risk is greatest and allocating resource accordingly. Mr. Malik: Fire and Rescue Authorities produce A range of guidance on the drawing up of IRMPs Service Improvement Plans as part of the Integrated has been issued to FRAs and is available on the Risk Management Planning process. Communities and Local Government website. 1501W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1502W

Fire Services: Working Hours Mr. Ian Austin: An Impact assessment was undertaken for PPG3 but the impact assessment undertaken for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for PPS3 has superseded the assessment for PPG3. This Communities and Local Government what guidance assessment is available on the Communities and Local his Department has issued to fire and rescue authorities Government website: in the last 24 months on the European Working Time http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Directive and retained firefighters. [292626] planningandbuilding/pps3ria

Mr. Malik: The Department has not issued any guidance Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State to fire and rescue services on the EU Working Time for Communities and Local Government what the Directive and retained duty system firefighters in the errors were in the House Building Statistical Release last 24 months. “Integrated Risk Management Planning published on 20 August 2009 which caused it to be Guidance Note 6”, which gives general guidance on withdrawn. [294883] how the Working Time Regulations might affect the fire and rescue service and was issued in 2004, remains Mr. Ian Austin: The errors in the House Building current. Statistical Release published on 20 August 2009 affected the numbers of starts and completions reported for the Homelessness June quarter 2009. In line with the UK Statistics Authority’s Code of Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Practice for Official Statistics, we will be publishing a Communities and Local Government how many people revised release as soon as possible. Once a release date have (a) applied to their local authority for housing for the corrected figures is known this will be announced and (b) been designated as intentionally homeless following on the UK National Statistics publication hub and the a repossession in each of the last three years. [294071] Communities and Local Government departmental release Mr. Ian Austin: CLG does not hold information on calendar. the number of households who, following repossession, Housing: Energy apply to their local authority for housing and are found intentionally homeless. Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for CLG issued supplementary guidance to local housing Communities and Local Government what (a) authorities in August on how they should exercise their research his Department has undertaken on and (b) homelessness functions, and apply the various statutory resources his Department has committed to assist the criteria, when considering whether applicants who are preparedness of the house construction industry to homeless having lost their home because of difficulties meet new environmental energy-saving targets for new in meeting mortgage commitments are intentionally homes in the last 12-months. [292783] or unintentionally homeless. This guidance reminded authorities about the correct questions they must ask Mr. Ian Austin: Communities and Local Government when deciding whether a former homeowner has become has commissioned and contributed to a range of research homeless intentionally. projects on the energy performance of new homes in the last 12-months. These projects were carried out to help Housing: Construction inform the recent consultation to revise Part L (Conservation of fuel and power) of the Building Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulations and proposals to both strengthen performance Communities and Local Government whether a full standards and improve compliance with these standards. impact assessment has been produced relating to the costs of the provisions in the Lifetime Homes Standard Officials have liaised with construction industry including on building a house. [293360] housebuilders in the drawing up of these proposals, which includes a training and dissemination strategy. Mr. Ian Austin: In June 2007 the Department published My Department has also been working with industry a consultation on “Making a Rating Mandatory” within on our policy that all new homes will be zero carbon the Code for Sustainable Homes. This included an from 2016. Delivery of the policy is supported by the impact assessment which identified costs and benefits Zero Carbon Hub partnership who are looking at areas of building to the Lifetime Homes Standards. The where additional skills and training are needed. All this document can be downloaded at: work has been resourced as part of normal business http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/doc/ planning. Thefutureofthecode.doc We will be consulting on proposed changes to the Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for Code for Sustainable Homes in due course, and this will Communities and Local Government what recent include our proposal to make Lifetime Homes Standards discussions he has had with representatives of the mandatory at Code Level 4. The consultation will be construction industry on its preparedness for new supported by a full impact assessment. environmental and energy-saving targets. [292784]

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: The Department has been engaging Communities and Local Government whether his with representatives of the construction industry on Department carried out an impact assessment of (a) meeting the requirements of zero carbon policies for the revision of Planning Policy Guidance 3 and (b) its new buildings and on preparing for the introduction of policies on (i) density and (ii) brownfield classification new water and energy efficiency standards in Building in 2000. [294138] Regulations planned for 2010. 1503W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1504W

Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for HMR Communities and Local Government what (a) pathfinder New build1 Refurbishments1 Demolitions1 research his Department has undertaken on and (b) resources his Department has committed in the last Oldham 323 3,200 800 12 months to the various trades in the construction Rochdale industry on ensuring existing homes meet the new South 538 9,000 3,100 Yorkshire environmental and energy-saving standards. [292785] 1 HMR funded: as set out in the funding agreements between HMR pathfinders and CLG/HCA. Mr. Ian Austin: Building work on existing homes was included in proposals to strengthen energy efficiency Housing: Standards standards as part of the recent consultation to revise part L (conservation of fuel and power) of the Building Regulations. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what obligatory standards his Department imposes on developers of Housing: Regeneration (a) social and (b) private sector housing regarding dwelling space standards. [294460] Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much has Mr. Ian Austin: With regard to social housing, I refer been spent on each Housing Market Renewal Pathfinder; the hon. Member to the answers I gave to the hon. what the total expenditure has been; how many properties Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) on 5 May have been demolished in each; and how many new (a) 2009, Official Report, column 127W and the hon. Member affordable and (b) market price properties have been for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) on 11 March 2009, built in each. [293169] Official Report, column 506W. With regard to private sector housing, the Government’s Mr. Ian Austin: Total allocations from 2002-03 to planning policy for housing (PPS3) is clear on the need 2009-10 for the nine original HMR pathfinders are to achieve high quality new housing, which includes given in the table: consideration of the amount and use of space within and around the home. HMR pathfinder 2002-03 to 2009-10 (£ million)1 Birmingham Sandwell 139 Housing: Valuation East Lancashire 270 Hull and East Riding 113 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Manchester Salford 322 Communities and Local Government what the Valuation Merseyside 295 Office Agency’s policy is on providing information to Newcastle Gateshead 200 householders on the methodology by which their property North Staffordshire 178 was valued when such requests are made under Section Oldham Rochdale 184 18(2)(h) of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs South Yorkshire 245 Act 2005. [294600] 1 Includes preparation and early actions. From 2006-07, approximately £75 million has also Barbara Follett: The Valuation Office Agency (VOA) been allocated to the three areas of wider lower demand; may consider the value of a householder’s property for Tees Valley, West Yorkshire and West Cumbria making various different purposes including council tax, right a total of more than £2 billion allocated to the HMR to buy (RTB), compulsory purchase and national taxes programme since 2002-03. such as inheritance tax and capital gains tax. For council Total new build, refurbishment and demolition figures tax detailed information on the methodology adopted for HMR pathfinder areas, from the beginning of the is available on the VOA’s website at: programme to March 2009, are given in the table. Data www.voa.gov.uk differentiating affordable and private new build housing For other purposes if the householder is the person are not held in a readily available format and could be to whom the valuation relates (for instance is buying provided only at disproportionate cost. their property under RTB or is the subject of a taxation assessment) the VOA will either as a matter of normal HMR business or upon request, provide appropriate details of pathfinder New build1 Refurbishments1 Demolitions1 the methodology used in valuing the property. Birmingham 224 8,700 1,300 Sandwell Legal Opinion East 16 4,300 2,000 Lancashire Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Hull and East 167 400 600 Riding Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Manchester 935 12,300 2,800 answer to the hon. Member for Peterborough of 11 March Salford 2009, Official Report, columns 488-9W,on legal opinion, Merseyside 1,059 9,900 1,600 what the nature of the legal opinion and the associated Newcastle 274 5,100 2,400 issue of law was that was obtained in relation to the (a) Gateshead FiReControl Project, (b) Firelink Project, (c) Gypsy North 198 6,200 1,400 and Traveller Sites Grant Project and (d) Home Staffordshire Information Pack Register Project. [292855] 1505W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1506W

Barbara Follett: Legal advice was provided on a for 2008-09, HC 449, which local government research regular and ongoing basis. The majority will be protected projects have been (a) delayed and (b) cancelled. by Legal Professional Privilege or commercial confidentiality [294665] or both. Providing detailed information about advice obtained would be at disproportionate cost. Barbara Follett: A research project scheduled for Local Government and Public Involvement in Health 2008-09 on ‘The New Local Area Performance Framework Act 2007 estimation of impact’ was commissioned later than expected in September 2009. A project to study ‘Joint delivery of Public Services in an Area’ was no longer David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for required due to the emergence of initiatives such as the Communities and Local Government pursuant to the total place pilots. answer of 21 May 2009, Official Report, column 1547W, on the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, what factors arising from his Department’s Mortgages: Government Assistance consultation exercise are contributing to the delay in the implementation of Part 6 of the Act. [290313] John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many people Barbara Follett: We will publish shortly our response in Leeds West constituency have (a) applied for and to the consultation paper ’The Making and Enforcement (b) been granted assistance under the Homeowners of Byelaws’, having considered in particular the issues Mortgage Support Scheme in each quarter since the of ensuring a robust process of consultation between a scheme’s inception; and if he will make a statement. council and the community before the making of any [293942] byelaws and their enforcement. Local Government: Conditions of Employment John Healey: Homeowners Mortgage Support is part of the range of assistance available at every stage to households struggling with their mortgage. The scheme Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for encourages lenders to allow households who have suffered Communities and Local Government whether an a temporary income shock to defer some of their interest assessment has been made of the effect on local authorities payment, if this is necessary to make their monthly of the ruling of the European Court of Justice on payment affordable. The Department plans to publish allowing workers to claim sick leave while away on information in December on the number of households holiday leave; and if he will make a statement. [292550] who have been helped through Homeowners Mortgage Support. Statistics from the Financial Services Authority Mr. McFadden: I have been asked to reply. show that more than 135,000 borrowers were benefiting We are of course aware of the recent judgment from from forbearance offered by their lender at the end of the ECJ on Francisco Vicente Pereda v. Madrid Movilidad June 2009, an increase of 17 per cent. on the previous SA. We are carefully considering the potential implications quarter. not only for the public sector but all employers and will make our conclusions known in due course. John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government: Cooperation Communities and Local Government what steps his Department is taking to increase public awareness in Leeds West constituency of measures to assist Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for homeowners with mortgage repayments; and if he will Communities and Local Government whether he has make a statement. [293944] assessed the consequences of the Court of Appeal judgment in the case of Brent borough council v Risk Management Partners Limited on (a) two-tier joint John Healey: CLG have launched a new national working in local authorities and (b) his Department’s campaign to help struggling homeowners across the Total Place pilots. [293532] country take control of their finances and make the most of the support available for them to avoid repossessions Ms Rosie Winterton: The Court of Appeal judgment and stay in their homes. in the case of Brent borough council v. Risk Management National press and online advertisements are highlighting Partners Ltd. confirmed that local authorities are entitled the measures the Government have put in place at every to co-operate with each other in the performance of stage for homeowners to avoid repossession. The their functions. We have provided local authorities with advertisements point people to an advice line and a new a power to establish and participate together in mutual website illustrating the practical steps they can take to insurance corporate bodies through the Local Democracy, resolve their mortgage repayment worries, as well as Economic Development and Construction Bill. We have contacts for the wide range of support available. not specifically assessed the consequences of the judgment on two-tier joint working in local authorities or the Multiple Occupation: Licensing Department’s total place pilots.

Local Government: Research Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in which local Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities discretionary schemes for Houses of Multiple Communities and Local Government with reference to Occupation licensing are in the process of being approved. page 14 of his Department’s Resource Accounts [290418] 1507W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1508W

Mr. Ian Austin: The Department is currently considering Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation applications for discretionary additional HMO licensing schemes from Oxford city council, Breckland council Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for and the London boroughs of Hillingdon, Ealing and Communities and Local Government how many and Harrow. what proportion of hereditaments in London are (a) The Department has granted approval to Peterborough above and (b) below the £50,000 rateable value city council and the London borough of Hounslow to threshold according to (i) the 2005 Rating List and (ii) operate discretionary additional HMO licensing schemes. the latest modelling for the 2010 Rating List. [294092] National Policy Statements Barbara Follett: The HMRC figures published for the 2005 Ratings List at April 1 2009 show a total of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 280,000 hereditaments in London. Of these, 240,000 Communities and Local Government what the hereditaments (86 per cent. of all London hereditaments) timetable is for the publication of the drafts of each of were equal to or were below the £50,000 threshold, the National Policy Statements on planning. [293363] while 40,000 hereditaments were above that threshold (14 per cent. of all London hereditaments). Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the answer The draft 2010 Ratings List has a total of 280,000 given by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing hereditaments in London. Of these 230,000 hereditaments (John Healey) on 19 October 2009, Official Report, (82 per cent.) of all London hereditaments) were equal column 1315W, to question 292854 on National Policy to or below the £50,000 threshold and 50,000 hereditaments Statements (NPSs) for the timetable for the preparation were above that threshold (18 per cent. of all London of the first tranche NPSs on nationally significant hereditaments). The dataset used is consistent with the infrastructure. consultation document titled: ″The transitional The remaining four NPSs are being produced on a arrangements for the non-domestic rating revaluation ″ longer time frame. We intend to consult on the waste 2010 in England , published on 8 July 2009. water NPSs in spring 2010 and hazardous waste NPS in http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ summer 2010, and aim to designate them in 2011. We localgovernment/nndrrevaluation2010 intend to consult on the airports NPS by 2011 with a Please note all figures have been rounded to the view to designating it later that year. Finally we intend nearest 1,000. to consult on the water supply NPS in late 2010 once the final water resource management plans are published, Non-Governmental Organisations: Finance which are needed to inform the NPS, with the aim of designating that NPS by early 2012. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he New Economics Foundation has made of the number of quasi-autonomous non- governmental organisations operating at local level which Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for receive funding from the public purse. [293255] Communities and Local Government what payments his Department has made to the New Economics Tessa Jowell: I have been asked to reply. Foundation since its inception; and for what purposes Non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) operate at each such payment was made. [294510] both national and regional level. Some, but not all of these, deliver services locally. According to Public Bodies Barbara Follett: The Department has not made any 2008, as at 31 March 2008 there were 790 NDPBs payments to the New Economics Foundation to date in sponsored by the UK Government. This is a fall of 67 this financial year. (8 per cent.) since 1997. Copies of Public Bodies 2008 are available from the Libraries of the House. Public Non-Domestic Rates: Advertising Bodies 2009 will be published in the New Year.

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Parking: Fees and Charges Communities and Local Government whether a billboard site with no poster is deemed to be an empty Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for property for the purposes of empty property rates Communities and Local Government what information relief. [294100] his Department holds on the revenue raised by local authorities from parking (a) fines and (b) charges in Barbara Follett: I refer the hon. Member to the the latest year for which figures are available. [294147] answer previously given to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) on 11 February 2009, Barbara Follett: The latest outturn information for Official Report, columns 2065-066W. England on the revenue raised by local authorities from on-street parking was as follows: The legal provisions on the rating of hereditaments where advertising rights are concerned are complex and Penalty charge notice income: £333.5 million; the legal position will very much depend on the exact Other sales, fees and charges: £324.5 million. facts at play. However, in many cases it is the right to use These were published in Annex A5 of the ‘Local a hoarding or other structure for advertising which is Authority Revenue Expenditure and Financing England the hereditament and, therefore, which is rateable. In 2007-08 Final Outturn’ on the Communities and Local such circumstances that hereditament is considered occupied Government website at: for rating purposes whether or not the advertising right http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ is being exercised. statistics/revenue200708finaloutturn 1509W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1510W

Parking: Supermarkets However, DEFRA have recently published “Safeguarding our Soils: A Strategy for England”. This announced Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for that they will publish a new toolkit for planners in 2010 Communities and Local Government (1) what recent to help them to take account of soil functions, including representations his Department has received on the soil carbon storage, in the planning system, and work merits of levying charges to park at supermarkets; with this Department to review the effectiveness of the [292885] existing planning policy to protect important soils, and whether there is a need to update the policy. (2) what representations his Department has received on supermarket parking charges to be issued by local authorities under the Sustainable Communities Act Planning Policy Statement 4 2007. [294134] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Barbara Follett: The Department has not received Communities and Local Government who responded any representations on supermarket parking charges to to his Department’s consultation on draft Planning be issued by local authorities under the Sustainable Policy Statement 4. [293357] Communities Act 2007 (’the Act’). In line with the Act, the Secretary of State is co-operating with the Local Mr. Ian Austin: A list of the respondents to the Draft Government Association in its capacity as the selector Planning Policy Statement 4 will be included as part of as it considers proposals submitted under the Act and the summary of consultation responses which we will draws up a short-list for the Secretary of State to publish shortly. consider. The Local Government Association is considering Regional Planning and Development: East of England proposals submitted under the Act and has received two proposals on supermarket parking charges; Exeter city council—in summary the proposal is for Government Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for to give Exeter city council the power to retain revenue from Communities and Local Government whether letters locally imposed non-domestic rates on store car parking spaces, have been sent to local authorities in (a) the East of with the power for the Council to allow discounts to stores that England and (b) the South East by the relevant source at least 30 per cent. of goods from within 30 miles of Government Office on the weight to be given to draft Exeter (and which are not first transported to a distribution regional spatial strategies; and what guidance is being centre more than 30 miles away). given to local authorities on the weight to be given to Lewes district council—in summary the proposal is for the elements of regional spatial strategies which are subject Secretary of State to take power, or to give local authorities the to legal action pending the outcome of that action. power, to levy non domestic rates on all store car parking spaces [293156] with a power for the council to allow discounts (perhaps up to 100 per cent.) if the supermarket or other store, sources a stated percentage of goods for sale locally. Mr. Ian Austin: Policies relating to two districts in the East of England have been remitted to the Secretary of Planning Permission: Agriculture State for further work on the sustainability appraisal. Policies relating to two further districts in the South Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for East of England are currently subject to legal challenge. Communities and Local Government what changes All other policies in the regional spatial strategies for have been made to planning protection arrangements both the East of England and the South East should be for farmland classified as Best and Most Valued since treated as with full development plan status. May 1997; and whether impact assessments were Government office for the East of England have undertaken on the likely effects on England’s published a statement on their website. Further advice agricultural capacity of such change. [294136] for the South East will follow the outcomes of the legal challenges. Mr. Ian Austin: Planning Policy Guidance note 7 “The Countryside, Environmental Quality and Economic Regional Planning and Development: South West and Social Development” (PPG7), published in February 1997, was amended by a policy statement issued by the then Planning Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford), on 21 March Communities and Local Government what the latest 2001 to reflect the policy proposals of the Rural White timetable is for approval of the South West Regional Paper, “Our Countryside: The Future”(2000) that decisions Spatial Strategy. [290474] about proposed development affecting BMV agricultural land should take account of the overall value of the Mr. Malik: The Government announced on land and that agricultural quality should be treated as 25 September 2009 that they will carry out a further one factor. Full details were given in response to the appraisal of whether its proposals for the Regional hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), Spatial Strategy for South West England (SW RSS) are Official Report, columns 1339-40W. the most sustainable way forward for the Region. The policy in the statement was subsequently carried In light of the appraisal’s findings, the Government forward (in 2004) into Planning Policy Statement 7: will then decide what action to take to complete the “Sustainable Development in Rural Areas”(PPS7) without strategy to provide the clarity and certainty about the change. Draft PPS7 was accompanied by a published future framework for growth in the region which all impact assessment. partners are keen to see. 1511W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1512W

Shared Ownership Lending Working Group Mr. Malik: This Department has not issued guidance to local authorities on the use of stab-proof vests by Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for street wardens. It is for local authorities, and other Communities and Local Government what the membership organisations employing wardens, to decide how their of the Shared Ownership Lending Working Group is; wardens should be equipped, in the light of local what terms of reference have been set for the Group; circumstances and health and safety requirements. and on what dates the Group has met. [294088] Town and Country Planning Association: Finance John Healey: The Shared Ownership Lending Working Group is an official led group comprising representatives Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for from Communities and Local Government, the Council Communities and Local Government with reference to of Mortgage Lenders, the National Housing Federation, page 21 of his Department’s Resource Accounts for the Homes and Communities Agency and the Tenant 2008-09, HC 449, how much his Department has budgeted Services Authority. for payment to the Town and Country Planning Association The working group is examining how to overcome in 2009-10 for work on eco-towns. [294658] some of the potential barriers and disincentives to shared ownership lending. The group has met on four John Healey: We are currently agreeing an eco-towns occasions to-date i.e. 9 June, 15 July, 19 August and work plan with the Town and Country Planning Association 14 September. (TCPA) as we move into the implementation stage of the Eco-towns programme, following publication of Social Rented Housing “Planning Policy Statement: eco-towns”. As part of this the TCPA will complete the series of best practice Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for worksheets to support those taking forward eco-towns, Communities and Local Government what steps his and we have allocated £22,000 in 2009-10 for this work. Department plans to take in response to the report by Professor John Hills’ on social housing and social Travelling People: Caravan Sites mobility. [294146] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ian Austin: John Hills’ report has made a significant Communities and Local Government how many and contribution to the debate about the role of social what proportion of planning appeals relating to Traveller housing. This Government have taken decisive action to sites (1) were (a) granted and (b) dismissed in the two address the challenges raised in John’s report and the years prior to the introduction of Circular 01/06; challenges raised by the current economic climate. We have committed to investing £7.5 billion over two years [292577] to deliver up to 112,000 affordable homes and around (2) have been (a) granted and (b) dismissed since 15,000 private homes, including £340 million to support the introduction of Circular 01/06. [292995] local authorities in delivering new council housing. I am also introducing a range of major reforms to the social Mr. Ian Austin: The Planning Inspectorate’s data and private rented sector. This includes the consultations base does not record planning appeals in this way. I have recently published on a devolved system of responsibility and funding for council housing, a major review of the private rented sector and changes to social housing allocations to give people confidence that councils ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE allocate housing in their area fairly, and the initiative I have launched to clamp-down on fraud in the social Warm Front Scheme sector. In addition, I will be setting out further details of the Government’s plans to support housing recovery and ensure people have access to decent homes later this Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State year. for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department is taking to reduce the additional amount Social Rented Housing: Tenants householders in receipt of a grant from the Warm Front Scheme pay. [294123] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will take Mr. Kidney [holding answer 20 October 2009]: On steps to encourage social landlords to allow social 23 April we announced our intention to increase Warm tenants to engage in home working. [294087] Front grant levels from £2,700 to £3,500 (or from £4,000 to £6,000 where oil or a low carbon technology is Mr. Ian Austin: Government are working with social recommended). landlords to encourage greater levels of employment The number of households that are now asked to among tenants. make a contribution to the cost of works has reduced from around one in five households, to one in 10. Street Warden Scheme: Clothing Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Energy and Climate Change how many households Communities and Local Government what guidance he in Coventry have received Warm Front Scheme grants has issued to local authorities on use of stab-proof to date; and what the average additional amount paid vests by street wardens. [289370] by householders was. [294124] 1513W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1514W

Mr. Kidney [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The and (b) the refusal of Hamas to allow Gilad Shalit following table shows the number of households in visits from the International Committee of the Red Coventry that have received assistance from the Warm Cross; and if he will make a statement. [293287] Front Scheme, and the average additional amount paid by householders to 30 September 2009. Mr. Ivan Lewis: I raised the continued captivity of Households assisted by Warm Front in Coventry from June 2000 Gilad Shalit and Hamas’ refusal to allow humanitarian to 30 September 2009: access with the Palestinian authorities during my visit Number/(£) to the region in August 2009. We have also made our position on these issues very clear in international meetings, Total number of households 14,821 most recently in the Security Council debate on the assisted Middle East on 14 October 2009. Number of households that 1,808 paid an additional amount Average additional amount paid 394.41 Guinea per household (£)1 1 £394.41 is the average additional amount paid by those 1,808 households that paid a contribution. Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment the Government has made of the level of respect for human rights in Guinea following the violence at an FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Opposition rally on 28 September 2009; and if he will Afghanistan: Opium make a statement. [293779]

Mr. Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign David Miliband: We believe that an accurate assessment and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the human rights situation in Guinea can only be of the monetary value of the opium crop harvested in secured by an independent investigation into recent Afghanistan in each of the last five years for which events, including the gross violations that took place on 28 September. The UK, as a member of the International figures are available. [293680] Contact Group for Guinea, is actively considering with Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UN Office for Drugs and Crime the African Union and the Economic Community of (UNODC) provides estimates of the value of the Afghan West African States the scope for an urgent independent opium crop at ″farm-gate″ prices (the value the farmer international inquiry to conduct such an investigation. receives) in their annual Afghan Opium Surveys. These figures reflect changes in the opium price and poppy Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign cultivation. The estimated values for the last five years and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the are in the following table: Government is taking to assist regional mediation efforts to restore democracy and constitutional order in US$ billion Guinea following the violence at an Opposition rally on 28 September 2009; and if he will make a statement. 2005 0.56 [293780] 2006 0.76 2007 1 David Miliband: As a member of the International 2008 0.732 Contact Group for Guinea, the UK is in regular contact 2009 0.438 with the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) and the African Union encouraging and Bosnia-Herzegovina: Politics and Government supporting them in their efforts to take urgent and robust action on Guinea. We support the appointment Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign by ECOWAS of President Campoare of Burkina Faso and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has as mediator to the current crisis in Guinea. made of the outcome of the Butmir meeting on 9 October in Bosnia-Herzegovina; and what the Iran: Nuclear Power Government’s policy is on political reform in Bosnia- Herzegovina. [293783] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for David Miliband: We welcome and fully support this Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions joint EU/US push for political reform in Bosnia and he has had with the Iranian Government on the Herzegovina (BiH). It provides an important opportunity development of a nuclear programme in that country to make progress on priority areas for reform in BiH in the last month; and what the outcomes were of such and we are urging BiH’s political leaders to engage fully discussions. [293281] and constructively ahead of and during the next scheduled meeting on 20-21 October 2009. Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary met the Iranian Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Gilad Shalit Mottaki, in the margins of the UN General Assembly on 22 September 2009. He underlined to Mr. Mottaki Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the need for Iran to restore the international community’s and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has confidence in Iran’s nuclear programme through the had since July 2009 with Arab governments on (a) the path the E3+3 had laid out, stressing in particular the imprisonment of Israeli Soldier Gilad Shalit by Hamas need for transparency. 1515W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1516W

The Foreign Secretary and his E3+3 colleagues met Somalia: Piracy on 23 September 2009 and agreed on the E3+3’s strategy. Following this, officials from the E3+3 and Iran met on Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State 1 October 2009. This meeting agreed on several practical for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance steps that, if they come to fruition, may build confidence. the EU has provided to the Kenyan government to We look to the next meeting of the group, before the improve its naval capacity in relation to the suppression end of October 2009, to make progress on the key issues of piracy off the coast of Somalia. [292667] relating to Iran’s nuclear programme. Chris Bryant: The EU and its member states are eager Karpas to support capacity building in Kenya, and the Kenyan Government have been engaged in dialogue to ascertain priority needs, including regarding naval capacity. The Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for UK, as chair of Working Group 1 of the international Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many times Contact Group on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia officials from his Department have visited Greek (CGPCS), led a needs assessment mission to the Horn Cypriot people living in enclaves in the Karpas in the of Africa in September 2009, involving the European last 12 months; what the outcomes were of those visits; Commission as well as other partners. The assessment and if he will make a statement. [293722] identified a number of priority Kenyan naval requirements, and these will be discussed shortly among CGPCS Chris Bryant: The British high commission frequently partners. visit the Karpaz region and we follow events there On wider counter-piracy activity, the European closely. The high commissioner recently met with the Commission is supporting the UN Office on Drugs and Bishop of Karpaz and with the Rizokarpasso associations, Crime (UNODC) in the implementation of a jointly where he discussed the position of the Greek Cypriot developed programme for support for the trial and people living in the Karpaz. related treatment of piracy suspects in Kenya. The programme budget is ¤1.75 million. This programme Middle East: Peace Negotiations began on 15 May 2009 and will run for 18 months, with other countries also contributing to this project.

Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Sri Lanka and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his Quartet counterparts regarding the renewal of the tenure of the Quartet Special Envoy; Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and if he will make a statement. [293767] and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to other EU member states on the renewal of Generalised System of Preferences plans in respect of Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Sri Lanka; and if he will make a statement. [293099] Secretary has had no discussions with his counterparts about the tenure of the Quartet Representative. Mr. Thomas: I have been asked to reply. The issue of the renewal of Generalised System of Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Preferences (GSP+) in respect of Sri Lanka has been and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of raised in several meetings with my EU counterparts. 23 February 2009, Official Report, column 381, on the Along with other EU member states the United Kingdom Middle East: peace negotiations, how many staff his supported the EU Commission’s decision to initiate an Department plans to second to support the role of the investigation into Sri Lanka’s effective implementation Quartet Special Envoy in 2010; what the (a) grades of the GSP+ conventions. (b) and salary ranges of such staff will be; and if he The UK Government are committed to ensuring that will make a statement. [293768] the GSP+ scheme is robust and effectively implemented. It is important that we treat all countries objectively Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth and fairly, according to the GSP+ regulation. We have Office has currently seconded one higher executive officer consistently encouraged the Government of Sri Lanka equivalent (salary range £23,157 to £33,004) and one to engage constructively with the European Commission senior civil servant (salary range £58,200 to £117,750) in its investigation. to work in the Quartet Representative’s office. There are no plans to change this. UN Convention on Physical Protection of Nuclear Material Northern Cyprus Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the Government Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to ratify the amendment to the UN Convention Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will on Physical Protection of Nuclear Material; and if he commission research on the likely numbers of Greek will make a statement. [293138] Cypriots who would return to live under the Turkish Cypriot administration in northern Cyprus in the event Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Explanatory Memorandum and of a settlement. [293744] Command Paper concerning the convention on the physical protection of nuclear material was laid before Chris Bryant: No. Parliament on 16 July 2009 for the required 21 sitting 1517W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1518W days, ending on 4 November 2009. After 4 November Funding has not been agreed for subsequent years 2009 the instrument of ratification will be prepared by and so agreed trajectories for 2010/11 onwards have yet the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and signed by to be constructed but we are aiming to deliver 250,000 my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. We expect starts per year by 2020. to be in a position to ratify the convention by early January 2010. Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people USA: Nuclear Weapons (a) started and (b) completed a higher apprenticeship in the last 12 month period for which figures are available. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for [292443] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the US administration on Kevin Brennan: Higher-level apprenticeships were methods by which the international stockpile of introduced in the 2006-07 academic year, and are only nuclear weapons may be reduced. [293314] available in a limited number of frameworks, such as engineering and ICT. Mr.IvanLewis:President Barack Obama’s engagement In 2007-08, there were 60 higher-level apprenticeship and leadership on nuclear non-proliferation and starts, the latest full-year for which we have data. In the disarmament have intensified our already close counter- first nine months of 2008-09 (provisional), there were proliferation co-operation with the US. 90 higher-level apprenticeship starts. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and US Due to the length of these programmes, as at 30 April Secretary of State Hillary Clinton regularly discuss 2009, there have been 10 higher-level apprenticeship these issues, in particular the Iran nuclear case which framework completions. requires regular close high-level engagement. The US The Department will shortly publish the Specification values the UK’s contribution. of Apprenticeship Standards For England (SASE), which President Obama warmly welcomed the UK’s “Road will for the first time set out the essential components to 2010” blueprint on nuclear non-proliferation launched and standards for all apprenticeship frameworks. The by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 16 July SASE will require that all apprenticeship frameworks 2009 and Secretary of State Clinton gave strong praise include clear career progression routes, including those to the UK’s ideas leadership in the run-up to last through higher and further education. Over time, as we month’s historic UN Security Council Summit chaired encourage the development of more higher-level by President Bill Clinton. apprenticeship frameworks, we would expect that more people will progress from an advanced apprenticeship, to develop these higher level skills.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Apprentices: Unemployment

Apprentices Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people completing apprenticeships remained unemployed two Mr. Brady: To ask the Minister of State, Department years after the apprenticeship ended in the latest period for Business, Innovation and Skills what his Department’s for which figures are available. [290082] estimates are for the number of apprenticeship places available in each financial year from 2009-10 to 2013-14; Kevin Brennan: An apprenticeship is a work-based and what the target number of apprenticeship places for programme and an apprentice must have a job or a each of these years was in 2007. [291362] work placement as a condition of completing their apprenticeship framework. Many will already be in Kevin Brennan [holding answer 16 September 2009]: permanent employment prior to the end of their The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills do apprenticeship. Management information on the subsequent not create estimates for the number of apprenticeships employment of apprentices is not available. places that will be available each year but produce trajectories based on available funding. The Learning We collect information about the destinations of learners and Skills Council (LSC) Grant Letter 2009-10 published in to learning and employment through the Framework in November 2008 set out the planned number of LSC for Excellence. We expect to review the quality and funded apprenticeships starts for academic years 2008/09 relevance of this data in the future, including the feasibility and 2009/10 (Table 1.1 as follows). of how it can be used to identify the employment status of those learners who have completed apprenticeships. Table 1.1: Funded apprenticeship starts (academic years) Total starts Aspire Fund 2008/09 228,000 2009/10 238,000 Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Note: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Agreed funding from the LSC Grant Letter 2009-10 published in much funding has been distributed to companies from November 2008. his Department’s Aspire Fund since 19 November 2008; In addition to these places, on 7 January 2009 the how many companies have received such funding; and Prime Minister announced a £140 million package to how many awards from that fund have been (a) below provide an extra 35,000 Apprenticeship places over the £100,000, (b) between £100,000 and £299,000, (c) between financial year 2009-10. £300,000 and £499,000, (d) between £500,000 and £749,000, 1519W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1520W

(e) between £750,000 and £999,000, (f) between £1 million his Department has taken to assist (a) small, (b) and £1.49 million, (g) between £1.5 million and £2 million medium-sized and (c) large businesses in Essex; and if and (h) over £2 million. [285056] he will make a statement. [280980] Ms Rosie Winterton: On 7 July 2009 a first investment Ms Rosie Winterton: I refer the hon. Member to the was completed worth £700,000 which included funding answer I gave on 21 July 2009, Official Report, column of £350,000 from the Aspire Fund. On 11 August 2009, 1689W. a second offer totalling £1 million and including £400,000 Aspire funding was also completed. There are two further deals in legal stages, one of Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department which totals £1.5 million of funding with the Aspire for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many (a) Fund providing £400,000 towards that investment. The start-up and (b) established businesses in each region second totals £1.3 million of funding with the Aspire had received assistance from each participating bank Fund providing £350,000 towards investment. These under the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme on the two deals are expected to complete in early September. latest date for which figures are available; [286233] There are seven further potential deals under active (2) when he plans to respond to question 286233, on consideration looking to raise £4.6 million in total, with the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme, tabled on the Aspire Fund providing approximately £2.2 million 8 July 2009. [292027] of this. Business: Government Assistance Ms Rosie Winterton: The Enterprise Finance Guarantee was launched on 14 January. The tables provide details Mr. Amess: To ask the Minister of State, Department of the number and value of loans offered and drawn for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps down by age of business for each region.

Number of loans offered 0to3 3 months to 1to2 2to3 3to4 4to5 Over 5 Region Not known months 1 year years years years years years Total

East — 382719262911181331 Midlands East of 2 763345372838287546 England London 2 66 39 35 38 37 35 293 545 NorthEast— 2481419101080165 North West 1 78 44 33 37 40 46 208 487 Northern — 5 234422444 Ireland Scotland — 69 18 21 17 19 19 150 313 South East 1 74 42 45 36 48 40 390 676 South West 3 55 32 42 42 43 46 274 537 Wales 1 44 10 16 17 12 13 121 234 West 2 642532362730228444 Midlands Yorkshire and 2 522617131918134281 the Humber Total 14 645 306 322 322 316 308 2,370 4,603

Value of loans offered £ million 0to3 3 months to 1to2 2to3 3to4 4to5 Over 5 Region Not known months 1 year years years years years years Total

East — 2.98 1.79 1.00 2.87 1.47 1.74 24.34 36.18 Midlands East of 0.22 4.64 0.92 2.35 3.32 1.82 3.69 30.21 47.16 England London 0.41 5.02 2.80 3.30 2.60 3.36 3.14 39.60 60.22 North East — 1.79 0.61 0.72 1.60 0.51 0.59 10.15 15.98 North West 0.25 4.83 3.04 2.05 2.65 4.25 6.16 23.84 47.08 Northern — 0.88 0.14 0.37 1.11 0.10 0.25 5.70 8.55 Ireland Scotland — 3.48 1.17 1.25 1.58 2.60 2.07 29.02 41.16 South East 0.10 5.81 3.12 3.10 3.75 3.53 3.38 45.09 8.55 South West 0.13 2.77 2.50 2.03 2.25 2.21 3.56 32.61 41.16 Wales 0.03 2.57 0.60 1.35 0.71 0.66 1.12 10.89 67.89 West 0.24 4.62 1.26 3.01 3.13 1.47 1.81 26.40 48.06 Midlands 1521W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1522W

Value of loans offered £ million 0to3 3 months to 1to2 2to3 3to4 4to5 Over 5 Region Not known months 1 year years years years years years Total

Yorkshire and 1.17 2.90 2.34 1.18 1.04 1.33 1.82 17.89 29.68 the Humber Total 2.55 42.29 20.27 21.73 26.61 23.30 29.33 295.74 461.82

Number of loans drawn 0to3 3 months to 1to2 2to3 3to4 4to5 Over 5 Region Not known months 1 year years years years years years Total

East —29201620206137248 Midlands East of 2 552837292029217417 England London 2 50 31 27 24 28 23 211 396 North East — 17 5 12 15 6 10 61 126 North West 1 62 38 28 33 35 42 175 414 Northern — 4 224—11528 Ireland Scotland — 54 12 17 14 17 17 124 255 South East 1 57 37 37 25 42 28 294 521 South West 2 39 26 31 37 37 37 213 422 Wales 1 29 7 14 15 8 10 86 170 West 1 491927302223170341 Midlands Yorkshire and 1 44231412171495220 the Humber Total 11 489 248 262 258 252 240 1,798 3,558

Value of loans drawn £ million 0to3 3 months 1to2 2to3 3to4 4to5 Over 5 Region Not known months to 1 year years years years years years Total

East Midlands — 2.38 1.51 0.72 2.02 1.02 0.91 17.64 26.22 East of 0.22 2.71 0.79 2.09 2.91 1.36 3.39 23.13 36.60 England London 0.41 3.43 2.01 2.37 1.47 2.37 2.48 26.89 41.43 North East — 1.05 0.47 0.65 1.24 0.35 0.59 6.55 10.90 North West 0.25 3.99 2.77 1.89 2.32 3.49 5.54 20.65 40.90 Northern — 0.81 0.14 0.28 1.11 0.02 3.24 5.59 Ireland Scotland — 3.02 0.83 1.15 0.99 2.46 1.87 22.43 32.75 South East 0.10 3.88 2.83 2.67 2.30 3.13 2.07 32.82 50.81 South West 0.07 2.12 2.10 1.32 1.99 1.95 2.37 22.56 34.48 Wales 0.03 1.71 0.41 0.85 0.60 0.34 0.73 6.85 11.53 West Midlands 0.06 3.37 0.84 2.74 1.88 1.17 1.49 19.26 30.80 Yorkshire and 0.59 2.38 1.66 1.01 0.92 1.17 1.40 12.63 21.75 the Humber Total 1.71 30.83 16.39 17.72 19.75 18.80 22.88 215.64 343.73

Charlie Whelan Departmental Research

Mr. Doran: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what research his for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Department has (a) undertaken and (b) commissioned answer of 15 October 2009, Official Report, column on the extent to which pension matters are included in 1047W, on Charlie Whelan, whether the EU Agency collective bargaining negotiations; and if he will make a Workers Directive was discussed at the meeting between statement. [294310] the Secretary of State and Charlie Whelan on 15 January 2009. [294745] Mr. McFadden: Officials in BIS and DWP have undertaken several case studies examining the way particular organisations and their trade unions have addressed Mr. McFadden: The EU agency workers directive was pension matters within the context of collective bargaining. not discussed but rather employment issues in the No external research has been commissioned on this automotive sector. topic. 1523W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1524W

Finance: Environment Protection Mr. Lammy: The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) publishes the ‘Performance Indicators in Higher Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department Education’ which cover projected outcomes of full-time for Business, Innovation and Skills how much of the first degree starters. £250 million Low Carbon Industrial Strategy Fund has The following link shows the relevant part of the been (a) allocated and (b) spent to date on each project HESA website to access data since 2003: which has received funding. [294721] http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php/content/category/2/32/l41/ Mr. McFadden: The first investments from the Table 5 covers projected outcomes of full-time first £250 million of funding for low carbon economic degree starters. The completion rate covers starters who development in the Strategic Investment Fund were set are expected to gain a degree. However, the more frequently out in the UK Low Carbon Industrial Strategy on used rate is the non completion rate (projected to neither 15 July and further investments have since also been gain an award nor transfer to another institution) which announced. The funding that has been committed, or accounts for starters who obtain another award, or earmarked for specific projects and investments, includes: transfer. Up to £120 million to support development of a British based The completion rate tables lag behind the widening offshore wind industry. participation indicators by one year due to the need for Up to £30 million to capitalise on Britain’s wave and tidal an extra year’s data to determine which students are still sector strengths in HE. Therefore, the most recent figures refer to the Up to £10 million for the accelerated deployment of electric vehicle charging infrastructure. 2006/07 academic year. Projected outcomes for the 2007/08 academic year will be available in 2010. A £4 million expansion of the Manufacturing Advisory Service. £45 million to support research and technology into low carbon The UK is maintaining very good completion rates aeroengine projects. for first degrees with the latest statistics from the £2.5 million to a Carbon Trust technology investment joint Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development venture to help UK companies develop new low carbon showing that the UK ranks 3rd of the 27 countries technologies in China. reporting data in this area. This has been achieved and By way of example, specific projects supported include maintained during a period when higher education has Wave Hub—a groundbreaking project in the south west been opened up to both increased numbers and a greater of England creating the UK’s first offshore facility for diversity of students. the demonstration of wave energy generation devices; and marine energy testing facilities at the New and Renewable Energy Centre (NaREC). Offshore wind Higher Education: Bexley investments include funding for new offshore wind manufacturing facilities in the UK and investment in the development of next generation and near-market Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, Department offshore wind technologies through large scale for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has demonstration. made of the number of applicants from Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency who achieved the required The Department has published an update on the grades but did not secure a place at a university in (a) entire £750 million Strategic Investment Fund, of which 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [293534] the low carbon SIF is a part, and copies have been placed in the Libraries of the House. Mr. Lammy: The information is not held centrally. Further Education: Hampshire Each institution is autonomous and can set their own academic and non-academic entry requirements for Chris Huhne: To ask the Minister of State, Department each course. for Business, Innovation and Skills how many further education colleges in Hampshire have delayed building projects because of problems with funding from the Higher Education: Leeds Learning and Skills Council; and what the estimated cost of each of these projects is. [292496] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Minister of State, Kevin Brennan: Capital funding for Further Education Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how colleges is administered by the Learning and Skills many students who had obtained A-Levels or an equivalent Council (LSC). As the information requested is with qualification in Leeds North West went on to higher regard to an operational matter for the Council, I have education during the latest period for which figures are asked Geoffrey Russell, the acting LSC Chief Executive, available. [294304] to write to the hon. Member with the further information requested. Mr. Lammy: The latest information from the Higher A copy of his letter will be placed in the House Libraries. Education Statistics Agency (HESA) shows that in Higher Education the 2007-08 academic year there were 565 all-aged undergraduate entrants to higher education from the Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, Leeds North West constituency, who had obtained A-Levels Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what or an equivalent qualification as their highest qualification the undergraduate completion rate in higher education on entry. was in each higher education institution in each year Figures for the 2008-09 academic year will be available since 2003. [294329] from HESA in January 2010. 1525W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1526W

Legal Profession: Fees and Charges Change Programme. All of the local postcode districts meet the local access criteria and have done so since the Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department criteria were introduced. for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Postage Stamps: Prices assessment the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service has made of the effect of no-win no-fee lawyers in employment tribunals. [292602] Mr. Weir: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment the Mr. McFadden: The Advisory Conciliation and Government have made of the effect on businesses of Arbitration Service (ACAS) has made no assessment of an increase in the price of first and second class stamps. the effect of no-win no-fee lawyers in employment [293434] tribunals. Mr. McFadden: Postcomm’s price control proposals Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department are subject to a current public consultation. The for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish Government would encourage all interested or concerned the protocol on how the Advisory Conciliation and parties to respond to the consultation which is due to Arbitration Service responds to the intervention of close on October 26, 2009. More details can be found no-win no-fee lawyers in employment tribunals. on the Regulator’s website at: [292603] http://www.psc.gov.uk/news-and-events/news-releases/2009/ consultation-on-changes-to-price-control-from-april- Mr. McFadden: The Advisory Conciliation and 2010.html Arbitration Service (ACAS) has no specific protocol on dealing with no-win no-fee lawyers in employment tribunal Mr. Weir: To ask the Minister of State, Department claims. Where parties have appointed representatives in for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent relation to such proceedings, and wish ACAS to discussions his Department has had with Royal Mail communicate with them through their representatives, on plans to increase the price of first and second class the conciliator will do so. This applies in the same way stamps. [293435] regardless of what arrangements the party and their representative may have entered into over fees for the Mr. McFadden: Ministers and BIS officials meet with provision of advice and/or representation. representatives from Royal Mail on a regular basis to discuss a wide range of issues, including regulatory issues. No specific meetings have been held to discuss Manufacturing Industries: Government Assistance the current price control proposals. We would strongly encourage all interested stakeholders Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department to respond to the current consultation which is due to for Business, Innovation and Skills what projects close on October 26 2009. More information can be have been granted funding under the advanced found on the regulator’s website: manufacturing package. [294722] http://www.psc.gov.uk/news-and-events/news-releases/2009/ consultation-on-changes-to-price-control-from-april- Ian Lucas: The advanced manufacturing package 2010.html announced on 28 July 2009 provides £151.5 million of support to British manufacturers. Key projects include Publishing £45 million funding to Rolls-Royce to support four new advanced manufacturing facilities built in the UK, Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister of State, £45 million to support Rolls-Royce led research and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills technology critical to the development of low-carbon whether his Department has undertaken an analysis of aircraft engines, £40 million investment in SAMULET skills needs in the publishing industry; what assessment research and technology programme, a £12 million he has made of digital skills needs in the industry; and expansion of the Printable Electronics Centre in Sedgefield, if he will make a statement. [292018] an additional £5 million investment from the Technology Strategy Board in collaborative R&D projects as part of Kevin Brennan: The Department supports the work its high value manufacturing competition, and a £0.5 of the Sector Skills Council Skillset which covers the million investment to support the development of a publishing industry. Skillset began working with the centre of excellence for silicon design in the south west. publishing industry in April 2008. Since then, they have completed primary and secondary research into the Post Offices: Fife size, shape and skills needs of the sector. A Publishing Skills Needs Analysis was published by Skillset at the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Minister of State, beginning of 2009 and a copy will be placed in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Libraries of the House. assessment he has made of the extent to which Post Industry consultation led by Skillset took place in the Office services in North East Fife constituency comply spring and a skills strategy and action plan has subsequently with the access criteria set out in the Network Change been produced. This has identified five strategic areas Programme. [293978] of focus. These are to develop skills for the workforce in a digital context; inform aspiring entrants of the realities Mr. McFadden: I understand from Post Office Ltd. of the industry and improve diversity and equality of that Post Office services in North East Fife constituency access; develop marketing, advertising and media sales comply with the access criteria as set out in the Network skills for the work force; identify leadership, management 1527W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1528W and business support opportunities; and bridge the gap Train to Gain Programme between education and employment and the relevance of higher and further education. A number of projects Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department are under way to address these goals. for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his Department has made of the number of learners Royal Mail trained under the Train to Gain programme who would have received training from their employer in the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department absence of the programme. [290270] for Business, Innovation and Skills what volume of mail was handled by Royal Mail in (a) 1997, (b) 2005, (c) Kevin Brennan: We have made no such estimate. 2006, (d) 2007, (e) 2008 and (f) 2009. [294582] Train to Gain: Finance Mr. McFadden: I include a table of mail volumes delivered by Royal Mail every working day for each of Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department the years in question. for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to simplify the operation of Train to Gain; what the Volume of mail delivered every annual budget for Train to Gain is; and if he will working day by Royal Mail (to discuss how to improve its operation with regional Financial year (April-March) the nearest million items) development agencies. [292435]

1996-97 66 Kevin Brennan: The Department has introduced a 2004-05 84 range of measures to streamline Train to Gain for 2005-06 84 employers and skills providers and to simplify access. 2006-07 83 For example, we have brought together the Train to 2007-08 80 Gain and Business Link brokerage services to make it 2008-09 75 easier for businesses to identify the learning requirements of their staff, alongside their wider business needs. We Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes are continuing to monitor Train to Gain with the aim of reducing paperwork and easing administrative burdens on providers. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many working The budget for 2009-10 is £925 million as set out in days at Royal Mail have been lost owing to industrial the Learning and Skills Council Grant Letter for 2009-10. action in each year since 2000. [294579] In future Regional Development Agencies will have a stronger role in articulating skills priorities for their Mr. McFadden: I include a table of working days lost regions, which will influence training provision through at Royal Mail each year since 2000 owing to industrial Train to Gain and other programmes. action. Written Questions: Government Responses Financial year (April-March) Working days lost Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2000-01 62,909 for Business, Innovation and Skills what the reasons are 2001-02 53,139 for the time taken to answer question 245130, tabled on 2002-03 5,766 15 December 2008, on replies to correspondence. 2003-04 85,464 [286350] 2004-05 7,099 Kevin Brennan [holding answer 16 July 2009]: Iam 2005-06 12,428 responding to the hon. Member today. 2006-07 6,921 2007-08 627,608 Substantive answer from Kevin Brennan to Adrian Sanders: 2008-09 1,167 I apologise to the hon. Member for the extraordinary 2009 (April to 12 October) 130,272 delay in responding to his question. The issue raised in his original correspondence was unusually difficult in terms of departmental lead, and Royal Mail: Meetings officials mistakenly decided to wait until a decision had been made before responding to the question. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many meetings between the management of Royal Mail and the HOME DEPARTMENT Communication Workers Union a Minister from the Alcoholic Drinks: Young People Government have attended in the last 12 months; and in what capacity such Ministers attended in each case. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for [294547] the Home Department how many people in each police force area were (a) prosecuted, (b) cautioned and (c) Mr. McFadden: Ministers have not attended any joint issued with a penalty notice for disorder for selling meetings between the management of Royal Mail and alcohol to a person under the age of 18 in 2008. [294206] the Communication Workers Union in the last 12 months. Ministers keep in regular touch with both Royal Mail Mr. Alan Campbell: Data from 2008 will be available management and the Communication Workers Union. in January 2010. 1529W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1530W

Asylum: Children The UK Border Agency has contracts with: Five public sector consortia: Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the North West Consortium (which comprises Manchester city Home Department how many children have sought council, Blackburn with Darwen council, Oldham metropolitan asylum in the UK in each of the last five years; how borough council, Bolton metropolitan borough council, council many such children have been the subject of an age of the city of Salford, Bury Metropolitan borough council and dispute; and how many such age dispute cases were Rochdale metropolitan borough council). resolved in favour of the asylum claimant. [289400] West Midlands Consortium (which comprises Birmingham city council, Coventry city council, Dudley metropolitan borough Alan Johnson: The following table shows the number council and Wolverhampton city council). of asylum applications by unaccompanied asylum seeking Yorkshire and Humberside Consortium (which comprises Leeds children (UASCs) made between 2004 and 2008 and the city council., The Sheffield city council, The borough council of number of applications which were the subject of an Calderdale, Kingston Upon Hull city council, The council borough age dispute. Figures on the number of asylum applications of Kirklees, The city of Wakefield metropolitan district council, by unaccompanied asylum seeking children involving The City of Bradford metropolitan district council, Barnsley an age dispute which were subsequently resolved in metropolitan borough council, Doncaster borough council and Rotherham borough council). favour of the applicant are not collated by the UK Border Agency and could only be obtained at North East Consortium (which comprises Newcastle Upon disproportionate cost. Tyne city council, Gateshead metropolitan borough council, Sunderland city council, Tyneside Metropolitan borough council, Information on asylum is published annually and Middlesbrough borough council, Stockton borough council and quarterly. The “Quarterly Control of Immigration Q2 Darlington borough council). 2009” and the annual “Control of Immigration 2008” Northern Ireland Housing Executive was published on 27 August 2009 and is available in the House Library and from the Home Office Research, Five city councils: Development and Statistics Directorate website at: Liverpool http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Nottingham stats.html Cardiff Unaccompanied asylum seeking children applications received in the Swansea United Kingdom, excluding dependants, on applications and age disputed applications, 2004-081 Glasgow Principal applicants Two not-for-profit organisations: Applications2, 3 Age disputed applications4, 5 YMCA Glasgow In In Refugee Housing Association (operating in Derby, Leicester Total Port country Total Port country and Nottingham) 2004 2,990 540 2,455 2,345 265 2,080 Six private sector companies 2005 2,965 445 2,520 2,425 215 2,215 The consortia, the city councils and the not-for-profit 2006 3,450 395 3,055 2,270 215 2,055 organisations may partly or wholly source their 20076 3,525 460 3,065 1,915 225 1,690 accommodation from social landlords. 6 2008 3,970 350 3,620 1,390 135 1,255 The UK Border Agency does not maintain records of 1 Figures rounded to nearest 5, with ‘*’ = 1 or 2 and ‘-‘ =0 and may not which particular accommodation units are sourced from sum due to independent rounding. 2 An Unaccompanied asylum seeking child (UASC) is a person under social landlords. However, unless the UK Border Agency 18, or who, in the absence of documentary evidence establishing age, permitted sharing within relevant law then the property appears to be under that age; is applying for asylum in his or her own would be empty before accommodating asylum seekers. right and; is separated from both parents and is not being cared for by an adult who by law or custom has responsibility to do so. 3 Figures exclude age dispute cases. 4 An age dispute case refers to an applicant who claims to be a child, Automatic Number Plate Recognition but whose appearance and/or demeanour strongly suggests that they are 18 or over, and whose age is disputed by the UK Border Agency unless there is credible documentary or other persuasive evidence to Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the demonstrate the age claimed. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 13 July 5 Includes cases for which age disputed at time of application. 2009, Official Report, column 137W, on Automatic 6 Provisional figures. Number Plate Recognition (ANPR), what data is Asylum: Housing collected by the National ANPR Data Centre other than that ANPR data which is collected and stored Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for the locally. [289590] Home Department (1) in which local authority areas the UK Border Agency has housed asylum seekers who Alan Johnson: The only data collected by the National are eligible for temporary accommodation in housing ANPR Data Centre (NADC) is that which is collected owned by social landlords; [289358] and stored locally. (2) in which local authority areas the UK Border The NADC is currently under development and test. Agency has rented empty social housing to There are 40 police forces now supplying data and all accommodate asylum seekers. [289359] police forces will be doing so by the end of 2009. Mr. Woolas: The UK Border Agency has 30 contracts Information specifically relating to 2005 is not held with 18 suppliers on a national basis for the provision of centrally and some information would not be held on accommodation for eligible asylum seekers. either the local or central ANPR systems. 1531W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1532W

British Nationality Cybercrime: EC Action

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many foreign nationals have the Home Department what steps he plans to take become regularised British citizens by each route to towards ratification of the European Cybercrime nationality in each year since 1997. [294153] Convention. [294207]

Alan Johnson: Statistics on persons granted British Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government are committed citizenship are published annually and quarterly in the to ratifying the Council of Europe Cybercrime Convention. Home Office Statistical Bulletins ″British Citizenship We are currently working through the process of ratification, Statistics United Kingdom, 2008″ and ″Control of following which we will lay the required Explanatory Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, United Memorandum before Parliament to obtain approval for Kingdom July to September 2009″. These publications ratification. If Parliament agrees to ratification, the may be obtained from the Library of the House and Foreign and Commonwealth Office will then commence from the Home Office Research, Development and the formal ratification process with the Council of Statistics website at: Europe. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration1.html Broadcasting Programmes: Finance DNA: Databases

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much funding his Department Home Department how many profiles have been allocated to support the television production Good 4 removed from the national DNA database by each the Hood. [294483] police force in each month since 9 March 2009; and if he will make a statement. [294061] Alan Johnson [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The Home Office partnered with the youth targeted channel Mr. Alan Campbell: Table 1 shows the number of MTV to develop the Good 4 The Hood campaign, to subject profiles removed from the National DNA Database engage and inspire young people to be part of the under the exceptional case procedure, i.e. following a solution in overcoming crime in their local area. The request to the chief officer of the responsible police Home Office has spent a total of £70,000 on production force from the person concerned, in each month from costs for the Good 4 The Hood campaign. These costs 9 March 2009 to 15 October 2009. The table covers included the production of TV and online adverts, a subject profiles from English and Welsh forces and the bespoke website and the four part MTV series. British Transport police.

Table 1: Number of subject profiles removed from the National DNA Database by each police force from 9 March 2009 to 15 October 2009 9to 1to Force 31 March April May June July August September 15 October

Avon and Somerset 03020020 Bedfordshire00002000 British Transport Police 00011000 Cambridgeshire 00000100 Cheshire 00000000 City of London 00010000 Cleveland 00101100 Cumbria 01121112 Derbyshire 10013820 DevonandCornwall11001010 Dorset 01001010 Durham 00100010 Dyfed Powys 00000000 Essex 00001210 Gloucestershire 00000000 Greater Manchester 10201100 Gwent 00002000 Hampshire 00002010 Hertfordshire 0 0 4 16 4 2 2 0 Humberside 00000020 Kent 01424050 Lancashire 00100000 Leicestershire 00000000 Lincolnshire 00000000 Merseyside 00000002 Metropolitan 5 4 13 7 4 9 10 1 1533W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1534W

Table 1: Number of subject profiles removed from the National DNA Database by each police force from 9 March 2009 to 15 October 2009 9to 1to Force 31 March April May June July August September 15 October

Norfolk 00010010 North Wales 00010000 NorthYorkshire00000001 Northamptonshire00000000 Northumbria 10025100 Nottinghamshire 00000230 South Wales 00000021 South Yorkshire 00308100 Staffordshire00021110 Suffolk 00000001 Surrey 11221000 Sussex 00010100 Thames Valley 01140111 Warwickshire00100000 WestMercia 00112001 West Midlands 04012250 WestYorkshire30103112 Wiltshire 02000000 Total 13 19 36 47 50 35 43 12

Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the between 9 July 2009 and 15 October 2009, broken down Home Department how many new profiles have been by the police force which collected the sample. added to the national DNA database by each police The number of subject profiles held on the NDNAD force in each month since 8 July 2009; and if he will is not the same as the number of individuals. A proportion make a statement. [294062] of DNA profiles held on the NDNAD are replicates, that is, a profile for a person has been loaded on more then one occasion (this may be because the person gave Mr. Alan Campbell: The figures in table 1 show the different names, or different versions of their name, on number of subject profiles added to the National DNA separate arrests, or because of upgrading of profiles). It Database (NDNAD) by English and Welsh forces and is currently estimated that 13.8 per cent. of subject the British Transport Police in each month between 9 profiles held on the NDNAD are replicates. The replication July 2009 and 15 October 2009, broken down by the rate of 13.8 per cent. should only be applied over the police force which took the sample. entire database however, as the replication rate for The figures in table 2 show the number of crime scene individual police forces varies considerably. The presence profiles added to the NDNAD by English and Welsh of these replicate profiles on the NDNAD does not forces and the British Transport Police in each month impact on the effectiveness and integrity of the database.

Table 1 Subject profiles added to the NDNAD between: 9 July 2009 and 1 August 2009 and 1 September 2009 and 1 October 2009 and Force 31 July 2009 31 August 2009 30 September 2009 15 October 2009

Avon and Somerset 903 953 934 464 Bedfordshire 548 638 452 274 British Transport 376 538 494 232 Cambridgeshire 338 502 400 272 Cheshire 451 793 608 266 City of London Police 108 63 147 65 Cleveland 303 547 443 224 Cumbria 270 387 510 160 Derbyshire 555 584 595 274 Devon and Cornwall 676 1,030 830 449 Dorset 385 457 432 141 Durham 355 356 326 129 Dyfed-Powys 296 187 150 104 Essex 1,068 1,134 1,448 459 Gloucestershire 373 590 544 335 Greater Manchester Police 1,797 2,048 2,022 851 Gwent 405 323 467 308 Hampshire 908 1,118 1,265 508 Hertfordshire 432 801 701 234 1535W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1536W

Table 1 Subject profiles added to the NDNAD between: 9 July 2009 and 1 August 2009 and 1 September 2009 and 1 October 2009 and Force 31 July 2009 31 August 2009 30 September 2009 15 October 2009

Humberside 559 687 701 373 Kent 855 1,174 1,136 548 Lancashire 1,167 1,251 978 368 Leicestershire 380 500 492 125 Lincolnshire 363 550 583 288 Merseyside 2,163 2,279 3,829 993 Metropolitan Police 5,462 6,710 5,449 3,197 Norfolk 324 392 498 120 North Wales 243 598 494 181 North Yorkshire 397 466 501 209 Northamptonshire 346 365 497 215 Northumbria 829 942 721 700 Nottinghamshire 634 498 530 239 South Wales Constabulary 632 789 793 323 South Yorkshire 870 845 881 368 Staffordshire 577 1,164 1,042 458 Suffolk 738 834 696 225 Surrey 334 503 418 200 Sussex 924 341 1,104 437 Thames Valley 1,464 1,572 1,530 623 Warwickshire Police 244 313 321 109 West Mercia 459 562 612 293 West Midlands 1,888 1,477 1,791 753 West Yorkshire 1,240 1,490 1,458 671 Wiltshire 322 507 679 197 Total 33,961 39,858 40,502 17,962

Table 2 Crime scene profiles added to the NDNAD between: 9 July 2009 and 1 August 2009 and 1 September 2009 and 1 October 2009 and Force 31 July 2009 31 August 2009 30 September 2009 15 October 2009

Avon and Somerset 61 66 70 36 Bedfordshire 37 29 39 19 British Transport 37 44 39 10 Cambridgeshire 62 74 63 22 Cheshire 50 60 69 35 City of London Police 6 2 4 0 Cleveland 18 21 19 5 Cumbria 24 34 28 19 Derbyshire 22 39 41 9 Devon and Cornwall 21 44 54 10 Dorset 28 30 24 12 Durham 29 28 38 15 Dyfed-Powys 13 18 12 7 Essex 75 97 81 44 Gloucestershire 20 16 22 7 Greater Manchester Police 259 308 335 133 Gwent 33 33 48 17 Hampshire 82 53 78 32 Hertfordshire 38 46 50 24 Humberside 70 81 75 34 Kent 116 108 138 51 Lancashire 116 172 171 54 Leicestershire 46 53 36 13 Lincolnshire 21 37 25 16 Merseyside 96 101 114 30 Metropolitan Police 403 547 563 198 Norfolk 41 43 64 21 North Wales 50 50 67 21 North Yorkshire 17 30 33 8 1537W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1538W

Table 2 Crime scene profiles added to the NDNAD between: 9 July 2009 and 1 August 2009 and 1 September 2009 and 1 October 2009 and Force 31 July 2009 31 August 2009 30 September 2009 15 October 2009

Northamptonshire 56 52 59 24 Northumbria 96 117 88 43 Nottinghamshire 57 51 57 33 South Wales Constabulary 62 77 76 29 South Yorkshire 78 95 89 41 Staffordshire 69 79 63 25 Suffolk 37 38 27 5 Surrey 41 47 27 11 Sussex 119 136 154 53 Thames Valley 89 97 88 23 Warwickshire Police 37 29 29 16 West Mercia 51 75 64 27 West Midlands 145 166 159 75 West Yorkshire 110 137 115 49 Wiltshire 18 16 29 7 Total 2,956 3,476 3,524 1,363

James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1 the Home Department how many and what proportion Number/ of recorded crimes were detected using DNA profiles 2008-09 percentage from the National DNA Database in 2008-09. [294209] Detected crimes in which a DNA match was 17,607 available (‘DNA detections’) Mr. Alan Campbell: The number and proportion of Additional detections arising from the DNA 14,602 1 recorded crimes detected in which a DNA match was match available in 2008-09 is shown in table 1. It is also Total detected crimes in which a DNA match 32,209 important to note that the detections are achieved through was available or played a part integrated criminal investigation, not through DNA Total recorded crime 4,708,072 alone. The source of the figures provided is the Forensic Proportion of ‘total crimes detected in which a 0.68 DNA match was available or played a part’ of performance data, which is collected from police forces total recorded crime (percentage) by the Home Office. The figures for the number of crimes detected in Table 2 Number/ which a DNA match was available only include crimes 2008-09 percentage detected in which a DNA match was reported by the National DNA Database (NDNAD). They do not include Detected crimes in which a DNA match was 17,607 DNA matches which arise through case work in serious available (‘DNA detections’) crime, which usually involve comparing DNA profiles Additional detections arising from the DNA 14,602 in a forensic laboratory, or DNA matches arising from match1 one-off speculative searches of the NDNAD. Data on Total detected crimes in which a DNA match 32,209 DNA matches from casework and speculative searches was available or played a part is not included in the police Forensic performance data. Crimes where potential DNA material 99,402 collected The presentation of crimes detected with DNA as a Proportion of ‘crimes detected in which a 32.40 proportion of total recorded crime undervalues the DNA match was available’ of ‘crimes where relative contribution of DNA to the crime detection potential DNA material collected’ (percentage) rate. It should be noted that the majority of recorded 1 Additional detections may result from the original crime with the crimes do not have a crime scene (for example, minor DNA match due to the identification of further offences through forensic linkage or through admission by the offender. assault, drugs offences, theft, fraud etc.) and do not have a crime scene examination. In 2008-09, just under 797,000 crimes had a crime scene examination (17 percent Dorset Police: Olympic Games 2012 of recorded crimes). In those crimes which have a crime scene examination, some do not yield any forensic material (DNA or fingerprints). In 2008-09, potential Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for the DNA material was collected at 99,402 crimes; and of Home Department what the timetable is for each of the these, 39,795 crimes yielded DNA crime scene samples work streams relating to policing by Dorset Police of of sufficient quantity and quality for profiling and the events of the London 2012 Olympic Games to be loading to the NDNAD. Of the 39,795 crimes in which held in Portland. [294372] a crime scene sample profile was loaded, a match was generated in 36,727 crimes. Alan Johnson [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The proportion of ‘crimes detected in which a DNA Dorset Police are fully engaged in each of the security match was available’, of those, ‘crimes where potential projects that will contribute to the safety and the security DNA material was collected’ is shown in table 2. of the sailing events at Weymouth and Portland. 1539W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1540W

Funding will be released from project budgets when it 5 December 2005 to 31 March 2007: £210,449,000 is required to meet agreed operational needs, about 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008: £138,001,000. which the Home Office is in discussion with the Association Performance by the company as a whole and at of Chief Police Officers, as well as the individual affected individual sites are matters for company management. forces. The Home Office also needs to take into account The ability of the company to meet the required standards the needs of other security agencies, affordability within is governed by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service. the total funding available, and how to secure value for money. Funding will be kept under constant review to Forensic Science: Digital Technology reflect the overall Olympic security requirement, including the needs of Dorset. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the average time taken to Fingerprints: Databases process forensic evidence contained on computer disks and other digital media was in each police force area in Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the the latest period for which figures are available. Home Department how many people on the national [294211] fingerprint database aged (a) under 10, (b) 10 to 15, (c) 16 to 17 and (d) 18 or more years old had no Mr. Hanson: No information is collected centrally on conviction, caution, formal warning or reprimand the average time taken by police forces in England and recorded on the police national computer. [294184] Wales to process forensic evidence contained on computer disks and other digital media. Alan Johnson: The national fingerprint database does Identity and Passport Service: Absenteeism not hold criminal conviction data; it stores biometric data and basic identity details which can be used to align identity with records on the Police National Computer Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the (PNC). The PNC is an operational tool and not designed Home Department how many staff absences there were to produce the information requested. To obtain the in the Identity and Passport Service in each month of information would incur disproportionate cost. the last 12 years. [289518] Forensic Science Service Mr. Woolas: The available information is given in the following tables. Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the IPS can only provide monthly sickness statistics for Home Department what estimate he has made of the two years as we do not have cleansed and validated monetary value of work carried out at each UK figures for the rest of the period. Due to elapsed time, Forensic Science Service centre in each of the last five we cannot convert the raw data into a suitable format years; and what recent assessment he has made of the without incurring disproportionate cost. effectiveness of the centres in carrying out their work. Figures for staff employed shown are FTE (full-time [293641] equivalents) which are the data readily available, representing permanent IPS staff. The General Register Office (GRO) Mr. Alan Campbell: The Forensic Science Service became part of IPS with effect from April 2008 when it Ltd. does not manage its revenue streams by individual moved from the Office for National Statistics. The sites but records its income across the company. The figures that have been supplied do not include GRO as revenue figures from 5 December 2005, when the company the staff records for these staff were not migrated onto was vested as a Government-owned company are: the IPS system until 1 April 2009.

Identity and passport service (IPS): Record of staff on sick leave for the latest rolling year H.Q. London Liverpool Peterborough Newport Glasgow Belfast Durham ION Total

2007

May Staff in post (FTE) 473.80 314.10 436.44 550.75 364.93 265.98 165.93 689.70 94.24 3,355.89 Sick leave staff days 346.62 445.33 453.94 566.75 427.81 437.88 136.09 620.60 — 3,435.01 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.73 1.42 1.04 1.03 1.17 1.65 0.82 0.90 — 1.02 per person1

June Staff in post (FTE) 481.48 319.34 439.40 548.97 361.49 263.36 166.13 678.71 163.89 3,422.77 Sick leave staff days 309.83 391.47 451.88 536.68 465.88 373.43 153.49 620.30 1.00 3,303.96 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.64 1.23 1.03 0.98 1.29 1.42 0.92 0.91 0.01 0.97 per person1

July Staff in post (FTE) 492.60 318.48 436.35 545.18 357.88 261.01 166.93 671.73 228.05 3,478.21 Sick leave staff days 359.75 440.66 478.93 625.78 430.37 350.72 144.35 592.61 76.15 3,499.32 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.73 1.38 1.10 1.15 1.20 1.34 0.86 0.88 0.33 1.01 per person1

August Staff in post (FTE) 504.11 314.01 426.29 538.47 356.56 260.85 165.78 668.64 283.38 3,518.10 1541W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1542W

Identity and passport service (IPS): Record of staff on sick leave for the latest rolling year H.Q. London Liverpool Peterborough Newport Glasgow Belfast Durham ION Total

Sick leave staff days 342.76 445.01 526.06 557.12 518.77 315.40 147.82 675.81 89.14 3,617.89 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.68 1.42 1.23 1.03 1.45 1.21 0.89 1.01 0.31 1.03 per person1

September Staff in post (FTE) 526.70 311.36 430.96 534.16 352.84 250.29 164.84 661.76 327.76 3,560.67 Sick leave staff days 235.16 311.64 400.36 426.49 386.62 247.17 177.03 580.02 85.89 2,850.38 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.45 1.00 0.93 0.80 1.10 0.99 1.07 0.88 0.26 0.80 per person1

October Staff in post (FTE) 552.77 287.92 409.57 523.16 338.78 240.79 157.76 646.19 396.00 3,552.95 Sick leave staff days 337.23 412.99 456.35 571.92 487.01 279.48 239.74 697.76 130.22 3,612.70 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.61 1.43 1.11 1.09 1.44 1.16 1.52 1.08 0.33 1.02 per person1

November Staff in post (FTE) 558.77 288.67 411.42 520.16 337.30 244.79 159.76 643.41 425.31 3,589.59 Sick leave staff days 376.34 432.14 532.15 534.80 368.23 338.08 217.26 680.13 140.99 3,620.12 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.67 1.50 1.29 1.03 1.09 1.38 1.36 1.06 0.33 1.01 per person1

December Staff in post (FTE) 563.37 295.37 408.96 505.11 339.58 239.79 158.96 646.41 432.75 3,590.30 Sick leave staff days 394.16 291.61 466.73 464.51 297.89 318.09 126.99 687.24 264.70 3,311.92 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.70 0.99 1.14 0.92 0.88 1.33 0.80 1.06 0.61 0.92 per person1

2008 January Staff in post (FTE) 584.51 290.74 418.97 520.16 334.69 237.97 161.87 634.10 453.25 3,636.26 Sick leave staff days 386.78 350.89 506.71 481.52 505.83 285.88 167.51 836.83 334.55 3,856.50 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.66 1.21 1.21 0.93 1.51 1.20 1.03 1.32 0.74 1.06 per person1

February Staff in post (FTE) 589.82 281.49 410.06 513.17 334.41 236.02 161.33 626.20 454.40 3,606.90 Sick leave staff days 363.11 339.38 462.04 477.04 363.80 251.73 227.96 581.31 293.97 3,360.33 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.62 1.21 1.13 0.93 1.09 1.07 1.41 0.93 0.65 0.93 per person1

March Staff in post (FTE) 598.46 285.83 406.03 512.48 322.88 229.32 161.26 625.79 468.69 3,610.74 Sick leave staff days 296.82 317.40 444.07 335.00 300.76 234.08 195.32 578.34 347.01 3,048.80 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.50 1.11 1.09 0.65 0.93 1.02 1.21 0.92 0.74 0.84 per person1

April Staff in post (FTE) 637.10 282.63 406.54 506.48 320.58 217.34 160.26 624.58 475.45 3,630.96 Sick leave staff days 419.35 405.68 515.75 458.00 299.42 224.58 123.56 690.29 446.06 3,582.69 (FTE) Average sick leave 0.66 1.44 1.27 0.90 0.93 1.03 0.77 1.11 0.94 0.99 per person1

12 month Staff divided by 12 546.96 299.16 420.08 526.52 343.49 245.63 162.57 651.43 350.26 3,546.11 months Total sick leave 4,167.90 4,584.19 5,694.97 6,035.61 4,852.39 3,656.52 2,057.12 7,841.24 2,209.69 41,099.63 staff days Average sick leave 7.62 15.32 13.56 11.46 14.13 14.89 12.65 12.04 6.31 11.59 per person1 1 Totals show sick leave staff days divided by staff in post Identity and passport service (IPS): Record of staff on sick absence for the latest rolling year H.Q. London Liverpool Peterborough Newport Glasgow Belfast Durham ION Total

2008 April Staff in post (FTE) 637.10 282.63 406.54 506.48 320.58 217.34 160.26 624.58 475.45 3,630.96 Sick absence staff 419.35 405.68 515.75 458.00 299.42 224.58 123.56 690.29 446.06 3,582.69 days (FTE) 1543W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1544W

Identity and passport service (IPS): Record of staff on sick absence for the latest rolling year H.Q. London Liverpool Peterborough Newport Glasgow Belfast Durham ION Total

Average sick 0.66 1.44 1.27 0.90 0.93 1.03 0.77 1.11 0.94 0.99 absence per person1

May Staff in post (FTE) 630.39 278.86 404.99 502.84 319.48 212.74 160.43 620.77 474.84 3,605.34 Sick absence staff 426.10 339.83 383.10 585.55 306.42 250.28 111.90 630.83 363.21 3,397.22 days (FTE) Average sick 0.68 1.22 0.95 1.16 0.96 1.18 0.70 1.02 0.76 0.94 absence per person1

June Staff in post (FTE) 650.28 293.18 405.58 500.89 320.39 213.20 162.67 619.53 472.21 3,637.92 Sick absence staff 389.87 356.73 359.11 569.68 376.38 198.61 168.72 584.51 234.32 3,237.93 days (FTE) Average sick 0.60 1.22 0.89 1.14 1.17 0.93 1.04 0.94 0.50 0.89 absence per person1

July Staff in post (FTE) 653.20 299.44 412.90 497.89 325.80 211.66 162.67 620.50 497.41 3,681.47 Sick absence staff 515.70 406.30 410.72 541.86 420.15 239.64 125.92 655.41 302.01 3,617.71 days (FTE) Average sick 0.79 1.36 0.99 1.09 1.29 1.13 0.77 1.06 0.61 0.98 absence per person1

August Staff in post (FTE) 658.06 298.37 411.69 500.64 320.79 207.91 163.67 616.73 477.40 3,655.26 Sick absence staff 352.86 421.09 352.52 484.38 313.12 227.42 68.70 589.54 328.49 3,138.12 days (FTE) Average sick 0.54 1.41 0.86 0.97 0.98 1.09 0.42 0.96 0.69 0.86 absence per person1

September Staff in post (FTE) 674.41 294.33 406.12 496.28 322.10 201.97 164.91 607.36 475.17 3,642.65 Sick absence staff 446.92 358.26 304.91 557.27 279.53 268.29 64.47 623.65 333.56 3,236.86 days (FTE) Average sick 0.66 1.22 0.75 1.12 0.87 1.33 0.39 1.03 0.70 0.89 absence per person1

October Staff in post (FTE) 698.62 268.33 401.22 493.08 320.79 184.58 164.91 599.24 464.58 3,595.35 Sick absence staff 573.86 257.16 393.84 519.75 368.34 326.31 100.50 581.41 338.29 3,459.46 days (FTE) Average sick 0.82 0.96 0.98 1.05 1.15 1.77 0.61 0.97 0.73 0.96 absence per person1

November Staff in post (FTE) 724.69 258.19 396.98 492.73 320.16 165.92 164.86 591.56 461.07 3,576.17 Sick absence staff 609.01 220.60 392.10 375.31 324.37 307.33 119.58 520.68 271.33 3,140.31 days (FTE) Average sick 0.84 0.85 0.99 0.76 1.01 1.85 0.73 0.88 0.59 0.88 absence per person1

December Staff in post (FTE) 717.69 259.90 392.98 488.39 321.49 152.42 164.86 596.30 460.19 3,554.22 Sick absence staff 754.57 168.22 420.42 529.24 311.02 253.74 136.68 653.14 320.49 3,547.52 days (FTE) Average sick 1.05 0.65 1.07 1.08 0.97 1.66 0.83 1.10 0.70 1.00 absence per person1

2009 January Staff in post (FTE) 705.52 262.00 390.98 488.66 316.33 143.89 164.09 607.96 458.57 3,538.00 Sick absence staff 321.82 146.37 289.92 507.24 299.17 209.53 96.64 615.12 319.98 2,805.79 days (FTE) Average sick 0.46 0.56 0.74 1.04 0.95 1.46 0.59 1.01 0.70 0.79 absence per person1

February Staff in post (FTE) 707.99 256.75 386.22 483.00 315.79 110.54 163.14 604.74 456.82 3,484.99 Sick absence staff 220.38 138.08 300.35 398.75 256.21 140.33 75.61 489.57 201.82 2,221.10 days (FTE) Average sick 0.31 0.54 0.78 0.83 0.81 1.27 0.46 0.81 0.44 0.64 absence per person1

March Staff in post (FTE) 781.58 256.75 389.57 461.63 316.14 104.20 149.45 589.76 454.60 3,503.68 Sick absence staff 356.65 168.10 295.84 377.47 308.96 68.50 93.65 439.07 275.10 2,383.33 days (FTE) 1545W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1546W

Identity and passport service (IPS): Record of staff on sick absence for the latest rolling year H.Q. London Liverpool Peterborough Newport Glasgow Belfast Durham ION Total

Average sick 0.46 0.65 0.76 0.82 0.98 0.66 0.63 0.74 0.61 0.68 absence per person1

Staff divided by 12 686.63 275.73 400.48 492.71 319.99 177.20 162.16 608.25 469.03 3,592.17 months Total sick absence 5,387.08 3,386.42 4,418.57 5,904.50 3,863.09 2,714.57 1,285.93 7,073.22 3,734.65 37,768.03 staff days Average sick 7.85 12.28 11.03 11.98 12.07 15.32 7.93 11.63 7.96 10.5 absence per person1

Annual target (days) 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 10.50 Annual variance 2.7 -1.8 -0.5 -1.5 -1.6 -4.8 2.6 -1.1 2.5 -0.0 (days) Annual percentage 225 3-17 3-5 3-14 3-15 3-46 224 3-11 224 30 variance 1 Totals show sick absence staff days divided by staff in post 2 Within YTD target 3 Outside YTD target Note: IPS currently reports on staff by: Regional passport office locations (Liverpool, Peterborough, Glasgow, Belfast, London, Durham, Newport) Interview office network (ION)—as sites are so small, all offices are grouped together in one single report Headquarters (HQ)—this will included headquarters staff who are located outside London General Register’s Office for England and Wales (GRO)

Immigration: Children It remains our hope that the target of 100 per cent. of consumer-facing ISPs operating a blocking list will be Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the achieved on a voluntary basis and we keep progress on Home Department how many children were detained the 100 per cent. target under review. for immigration purposes for (a) less than one week, The IWF publishes a list of companies that take the (b) between one week and one month, (c) between list. It has plans for a self-certification system so that one month and six months, (d) between six months the public will be able to identify which companies are and one year and (e) more than one year in each of the operating an effective blocking policy. last five years. [289401] Police: Enfield Alan Johnson: The information is not held centrally recorded and could be provided only at disproportionate Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost. Home Department how many (a) police officers and (b) police community safety officers there were in National Statistics on children detained solely under Enfield North constituency in each year since 1997. Immigration Act powers on a snapshot basis are published [294190] quarterly. The information is published in Tables 9-11 of the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Mr. Hanson: Police personnel statistics are not collected Summary, United Kingdom bulletins which are available by parliamentary constituency.Enfield is a basic command from the Library of the House and from the Home unit (BCU) within the Metropolitan police. Police personnel Office’s Research, Development and Statistics website statistics were not collected at BCU level until 2002-03. at: Data by police force area, with some breakdown by http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html basic command unit (BCU) are National Statistics and are published annually in the Police Service Strength Statistical Bulletin, available on the Home Office Research, Offences Against Children: Internet Development and Statistics website and the House of Commons Library. The relevant weblinks for the current James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for year’s data and a table for the previous years’ data for the Home Department whether he plans to bring the BCU of Enfield are provided for my right hon. forward legislative proposals to require internet service Friend’s convenience. providers to block access to foreign websites identified http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html as containing images of child abuse. [294210] http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1309.pdf http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/ Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government are very clear hosb0808add_tab.xls that the use of blocking to prevent access to these Police officer strength (FTE)1 and police community support officer images is something that internet service providers should strength (FTE)1 for the basic command unit of Enfield2 do, and are pleased with the support from providers, Officers PCSOs which has led to 98.6 per cent. of UK consumer broadband lines being covered by blocking of sites identified by the 2003 490 — Internet Watch Foundation as containing such illegal 2004 538 — images. The Government recognise the work of the 2005 575 — internet industry in reaching this figure. 2006 560 — 1547W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1548W

Police officer strength (FTE)1 and police community support officer Table 1: Police officer strength in England and Wales by police force strength (FTE)1 for the basic command unit of Enfield2 area on 31 March 2009 Officers PCSOs Police force Total

20073 582 119 Dorset 1,512 2008 546 134 Durham 1,588 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been Essex 3,484 rounded to the nearest whole number, due to rounding there may be Gloucestershire 1,372 an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of constituent Greater Manchester 8,232 items. Figures include those officers on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave. Hampshire 3,811 2 Figures as at 31 March in each of the given years. Hertfordshire 2,172 3 2006-07 is the first year that that police community support officer Humberside 2,110 strength by basic command unit has been collected centrally. Kent 3,799 Police: Injuries Lancashire 3,753 Leicestershire 2,363 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lincolnshire 1,229 Home Department which police forces have adopted London, City of 813 the procedure on reviews of injury awards set out in Merseyside 4,494 Annex C to Home Office Circular 46/2004. [294160] Metropolitan Police 32,610 Norfolk 1,668 Alan Johnson: The information is not held centrally. Northamptonshire 1,326 It is for individual police authorities to decide whether Northumbria 4,111 to adopt Home Office guidance in relation to carrying North Yorkshire 1,460 out their statutory duties under the Police Injury Benefit Nottinghamshire 2,408 Regulations. South Yorkshire 3,053 Police: Leeds Staffordshire 2,211 Suffolk 1,291 Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Surrey 1,872 the Home Department how many (a) police officers in Sussex 3,196 each year since 1997 and (b) police community Thames Valley 4,317 support officers in each year since 2002 (i) were Warwickshire 994 dismissed and (ii) resigned in Leeds North West West Mercia 2,471 constituency. [294295] West Midlands 8,637 West Yorkshire 5,854 Mr. Hanson: Data on dismissals and resignations are Wiltshire 1,229 not collected centrally at constituency level. Dyfed-Powys 1,197 Police: Manpower Gwent 1,438 North Wales 1,586 Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the South Wales 3,146 Home Department how many (a) police officers and Total 43 forces 143,770 (b) police community support officers there were in This and other tables contain full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, each police force in England and Wales on the latest there may be an apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of date for which figures are available; and if he will make the constituent items. a statement. [294012] Table 2: PCSO strength as at 31 March 2009, by police force area, England and Wales Mr. Hanson: The requested data are National Statistics Police force Total strength1 and are published annually in the Police Service Strength Statistical Bulletin, available on the Home Office Research, Avon and Somerset 381 Development and Statistics website and the House of Bedfordshire 122 Commons Library. The relevant weblink and tables are Cambridgeshire 196 provided for the member’s convenience. Cheshire 234 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html Cleveland 198 Cumbria 107 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1309.pdf Derbyshire 205 Table 1: Police officer strength in England and Wales by police force Devon and Cornwall 362 area on 31 March 2009 Dorset 156 Police force Total Durham 171 Avon and Somerset 3,355 Essex 446 Bedfordshire 1,244 Gloucestershire 161 Cambridgeshire 1,450 Greater Manchester 782 Cheshire 2,180 Hampshire 325 Cleveland 1,756 Hertfordshire 256 Cumbria 1,284 Humberside 321 Derbyshire 2,137 Kent 390 Devon and Cornwall 3,556 Lancashire 437 1549W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1550W

Table 2: PCSO strength as at 31 March 2009, by police force area, Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the England and Wales Home Department when the London Secure Police force Total strength1 Communications Network will be implemented. Leicestershire 228 [290459] Lincolnshire 153 London, City of 48 Alan Johnson: The implementation of the Olympic enhancements for the Airwave radio system is currently Merseyside 442 progressing against schedule, so that it is ready for the Metropolitan Police 4,594 2012 games. Norfolk 277 Northamptonshire 168 Stop and Search Northumbria 259 North Yorkshire 173 Nottinghamshire 243 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the South Yorkshire 328 Home Department (1) how many people aged (a) under 10, (b) 10 to 15 and (c) 16 to 17 years old have Staffordshire 236 been subject to police stop and search procedures in Suffolk 160 each police force area in each of the last five years; Surrey 206 [294218] Sussex 399 Thames Valley 517 (2) how many people aged (a) over 80, (b) 71 to 80 Warwickshire 143 and (c) 60 to 70 years old have been subject to police stop and search procedures in each police force area in West Mercia 272 each of the last five years. [294219] West Midlands 812 West Yorkshire 761 Alan Johnson: Information on stops and searches Wiltshire 135 that the law requires to be reported to the Home Office Dyfed-Powys 82 does not include information on the age of persons Gwent 139 searched. North Wales 159 South Wales 325 UK Border Agency: Pay Total of 43 forces 16,507 1 Total strength given as full-time equivalents. This and other tables contain full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, there may be an apparent Home Department how much was paid in bonuses to discrepancy between totals and the sums of the constituent items. (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers and (d) executive support and Public Telecommunications Systems administration staff in the UK Border Agency in each of the last five years. [281629] Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Metropolitan Police, Mr. Woolas: Please see the following tables for a the National Police Improvement Agency and the breakdown of bonuses paid to UK Border Agency Olympic Security Directorate have met to discuss (a) staff, including front-line officers, within the last five integration of their secure network requirements and financial years. (b) the potential for efficiency savings through I also refer the hon. Gentlemen to the previous integration. [290241] answer provided on 29 June 2009, Official Report, columns 78-80W, which shows that the size of the UK Border Alan Johnson: The additional Airwave requirements Agency staff ranges between 15,370 and 18,838 during for the Olympics have been identified for all emergency these years. At the same time we have also integrated services across the UK. These form the basis for the the functions of the Border and Immigration Agency, contractual negotiations with Airwave Solutions Limited UK Visas and HMRC functions at the border and now (ASL). have a presence in 135 countries around the world. The negotiations with the emergency services ensure The level of bonuses paid to staff in 2008-09 represents the system remains fully interoperable and that any less than 0.23 per cent. of the Agency’s net out-turn potential savings for negotiating on a combined basis (budget minus income). Bonuses are only given to those are achieved. who have performed to a high standard and have delivered the Agency’s public commitments. Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he has received reports Financial year 2004-05 of any delay in the implementation of the London Civil service grade Secure Communications Network; [290297] (and equivalent) Total amount by grade (£) (2) what assessment he has made of progress on the Administrative assistant (and 35,651.43 schedule for roll-out of the London Secure equivalent) Communications Network before the 2012 Olympics. Administrative officer (and 147,767.80 [290298] equivalent) Executive officer (and 717,792.59 Alan Johnson: The enhancements to the Airwave equivalent) Radio System required for the 2012 Olympics are currently Higher executive officer (and 463,624.29 equivalent) on schedule 1551W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1552W

Financial year 2004-05 Financial year 2008-09 Civil service grade (and Civil service grade equivalent) Total amount by grade (£) (and equivalent) Total amount by grade (£) Administrative assistant (and 96,893.16 equivalent) Senior executive officer (and 347,119.91 Administrative officer (and 366,301.71 equivalent) equivalent) Executive officer (and 1,098,218.29 Grade 7 191,648.15 equivalent) Higher executive officer (and 626,261.21 Grade 6 83,213.00 equivalent) Senior executive officer (and 456,418.16 Senior civil service 29,954.00 equivalent) Grade 7 287,680.19 Grand total 2,016,771.17 Grade 6 154,825.77 Financial year 2005-06 Senior civil service 343,605.08 Civil service grade (and Grand total 3,430,203.57 equivalent) Total amount by grade (£)

Administrative assistant (and 88,988.16 equivalent) Administrative officer (and 271,638.77 CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES equivalent) Academies: Sponsorship Executive officer (and 1,157,190.18 equivalent) Higher executive officer (and 688,560.92 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for equivalent) Children, Schools and Families (1) for which academies Senior executive officer (and 482,884.07 an element of the committed sponsorship has been equivalent) paid in kind; [293663] Grade 7 257,919.28 (2) what audit mechanism is used to assess the Grade 6 123,956.00 monetary value of sponsorship provided in kind for Senior civil service 40,474.00 academies; [293664] Grand total 3,111,611.38 (3) which academies have received their pledged Financial year 2006-07 sponsorship in full in cash. [293665] Civil service grade (and equivalent) Total amount by grade (£) Mr. Coaker: The following table identifies academies where sponsorship is a contribution to capital costs and Administrative assistant (and 119,325.46 the Department has evidence of receipt that the contribution equivalent) has been paid in full. There may be cases where further Administrative officer (and 352,503.81 equivalent) sponsorship payments have already been received by Executive officer (and 1,385,240.37 the Academy Trust but not yet reported to the Department. equivalent) Higher executive officer (and 801,067.68 Traditionally procurement academies where sponsorship has been equivalent) received in full Senior executive officer (and 513,648.95 Lambeth West London (Ealing) equivalent) Sheffield Springs John Madejski (Reading) Grade 7 274,715.86 Sheffield Park The Bridge (Hackney) Grade 6 170,090.32 The King’s (Middlesbrough) Petchey (Hackney) Senior civil service 61,939.86 Trinity - Doncaster North Liverpool Grand total 3,678,532.31 Haberdashers’ Aske’s Hatcham St Matthew (Lewisham ) Financial year 2007-08 Haberdashers’ Knights Langley (Slough) Civil service grade (and Marlowe (Kent) Leigh Technology (Kent) equivalent) Total amount by grade (£) Walsall Merchants’ Withywood Grace Solihull Excelsior (Newcastle) Administrative assistant (and 88,370.88 equivalent) Burlington Danes Corby Business Administrative officer (and 292,742.55 King Solomon Academy Landau Forte College (Derby) equivalent) Westminster Executive officer (and 909,644.96 City of London Southwark City of London (Islington COLA equivalent) -1) Higher executive officer (and 553,174.23 Bexley Business Folkestone equivalent) City Academy Hackney (COLA North Oxfordshire Senior executive officer (and 478,373.77 -H) equivalent) Wren (Barnet) — Grade 7 265,220.03 ″ ″ Grade 6 179,649.74 The only Endowment Sponsorship Academy where Senior civil service 295,992.68 sponsorship is in the form of contributions to an endowment fund, and has been reported to the Department Grand total 3,063,168.84 as having been received in full is the Marsh Academy 1553W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1554W

(Kent). As with the first category, there may be cases Pupil:teacher ratios1 in local authority maintained primary and where further sponsorship has already been received by secondary schools2, January 2009 the Academy Trust but not yet reported to the Department. Coverage: Leeds West constituency Sponsorship in kind is additional to formal sponsorship Number requirements, the Department does not therefore keep Primary 21.7 records of it. Secondary 16.4 In-kind sponsorship received by academies is recorded 1 The within school PTR is calculated by dividing the total FTE in their annual financial statements which are subject to number of pupils on roll in schools by the total FTE number of external audit. The external auditor will certify, among qualified teachers regularly employed in schools. 2 Excludes academies and city technology colleges. other things, whether the financial statements give a Note: true and fair view of the academy’s incoming resources. For statistical purposes only, pupils who do not attend both morning and afternoon at least five days a week are regarded as part-time. Each part-time pupil is treated as 0.5 FTE. Source: Children: Day Care School Census

Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Public Expenditure Children, Schools and Families how many and what proportion of childcare settings have (a) applied for Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) been granted exemption from parts of the Children, Schools and Families which line items in early years foundation stage. [294068] table 8.4 of his Department’s annual report for 2009, indents the funding allocation for (a) extended Dawn Primarolo: As of 15 October 2009, 18 Steiner schools—sustainability and (b) extended schools- Waldorf settings and one registered childminder have subsidy elements of the Standards Fund 2010-11 applied for exemptions from and/or modifications of Allocations spreadsheet published on the Teachernet the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS). Of those website. [292053] that have completed the exemptions application process, six Steiner Waldorf settings have been granted exemptions Ms Diana R. Johnson: The funding allocation for and/or modifications from certain parts of the EYFS extended schools is included in the Departmental Annual Learning and Development requirements. Report 2009, Table 8.4, within the line Schools, Other Standards Funds.

Children’s Centres: West Yorkshire Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much he expects his Department to spend on supporting its national John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, strategies in each of the next two years; and if he will Schools and Families how many new Sure Start centres make a statement. [293412] his Department plans to open in (a) Leeds West constituency, (b) Leeds and (c) West Yorkshire in the Mr. Coaker: In the current year we have committed next three years; and if he will make a statement. £390 million to National Strategies programmes. This [293948] includes the development and delivery of free resources to schools through the National Strategies contract as Dawn Primarolo: The West Yorkshire area (which well as support to local authorities and schools to covers Bradford, Calderdale, Kirklees, Leeds and Wakefield) enable them to access the strategies’ training and currently has 153 Sure Start Children’s Centres offering intervention programmes. services to approximately 127,000 children, with a further Expenditure for 2010-11 has yet to be determined 20 planned to be delivered by March 2010 in order to and will depend upon the priorities set in the National provide universal coverage of children’s centre services Strategies Annual Plan which we hope to agree in for children under five and their families. Of the 153 centres, December. We have already announced that the National 51 are in Leeds with a further eight centres planned. Strategies contract will not be renewed when it comes to Leeds West constituency has seven centres, there are no an end in March 2011. Instead, we will be placing further centres planned for this constituency. resources directly into the hands of schools, giving them greater freedom to determine their improvement needs and to secure the most appropriate support. Class Sizes: Leeds Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much has been Children, Schools and Families what the pupil to allocated to the Youth of Today programme in each of teacher ratio in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools the next five years, and under which budgetary in Leeds West constituency was in the latest period for headings such expenditure falls. [293644] which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [293947] Mr. Coaker: The allocation for The Youth of Today programme is 3,416,000 in FY 2009-10 and £2,671,000 Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the within in FY 2010-11. school pupil:teacher ratios in local authority maintained These costs are to deliver a fellowship programme; primary and secondary schools in Leeds West constituency ministerial shadowing scheme; a local shadowing scheme; in January 2009. a young leader’s campaign; stimulate the youth leadership 1555W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1556W sector and create a leadership progression framework; screened for risk and this is a continuous process until deliver a £1 million grant opportunity scheme; promote substantive allocation takes place. This Department has leadership in education; connect international best practice asked Cafcass to take urgent action to tackle the unallocated and provide youth led support and challenge to government cases and has made available additional resources of up and public services. to £1.6 million in this financial year to do so. European Schools: Finance GCSE Mr. Boswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the cost to the Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for public purse was of payments to European Schools in Children, Schools and Families (1) how many pupils in respect of (a) teachers’ salaries and (b) other support (a) independent and (b) comprehensive schools in the last year for which figures are available. [294031] achieved five or more A* grades at GCSE in the last year for which figures are available; [293606] Mr. Coaker: In the 2008-09 financial year the cost (2) how many students in academies achieved five or was (a) circa £8,901,000 for teachers’ salaries and (b) more A* grades at GCSE in the last year for which circa £943,000 for other support. figures are available. [293609] Family Proceedings Mr. Coaker [holding answer 16 October 2009]: Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Provisional data for 2008/09 show that: Children, Schools and Families how many children 8,558 pupils (18.3 per cent.) at the end of Key Stage 4 in involved in Children Act proceedings in each court area independent schools achieved five or more A* grades at GCSE. are awaiting the appointment of a guardian ad litem; 12,663 pupils (2.4 per cent.) at the end of Key Stage 4 in and what the average waiting time in each such area comprehensive schools achieved five or more A* grades at was in the latest period for which figures are available. GCSE. [289487] 178 pupils (0.9 per cent.) at the end of Key Stage 4 in academies achieved five or more A* grades at GCSE. Dawn Primarolo: The information requested is set out in the following table. Mr. Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families in which 10 non-core Average waiting curriculum subjects the number of GCSE entries was time for cases Cases awaiting received April to highest in each (a) comprehensive, (b) selective and Court allocation (at 15 Total August 2009 (c) partially-selective local authority area in 2009. circuit September) children (working days) [294642]

London 174 272 27.2 Midlands 34 59 12.2 Mr. Coaker [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The North 230 364 4.9 information can be provided only at disproportionate East cost. North 296 513 21.4 West Mr. Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for South 65 110 12.9 Children, Schools and Families in which 10 non-core East curriculum subjects the number of GCSE entries was South 117 180 9.2 highest in (a) maintained comprehensives, (b) West maintained selective, (c) maintained secondary Total 916 1,498 13.4 modern and (d) independent schools in 2009. [294643] There are 916 cases awaiting allocation which represents 6.9 per cent. of Cafcass’ total open public law workload. Mr. Coaker [holding answer 20 October 2009]: The All of these cases have been reviewed, prioritised and information requested is given in the following table:

Most popular non-core subjects by school type, 2009 Maintained Maintained Maintained secondary Independent Rank comprehensive Entries selective Entries modern Entries schools Entries

1 English 404,854 English 21,497 English Literature 17,962 English 36,755 Literature Literature Literature 2 History 155,557 History 11,918 Art and Design 7,216 French 26,744 3 Religious Studies 139,184 French 11,736 History 6,491 History 23,263 4 Art and Design 138,582 Geography 10,726 Geography 5,997 Geography 21,628 5 Geography 132,079 Religious 8,438 Statistics 5,541 Art and Design 14,906 Studies 6 French 123,819 German 7,583 Physical 5,441 Religious 13,632 Education Studies 7 Physical 117,584 Art and 6,426 Religious Studies 5,260 Spanish 11,249 Education Design 1557W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1558W

Most popular non-core subjects by school type, 2009 Maintained Maintained Maintained secondary Independent Rank comprehensive Entries selective Entries modern Entries schools Entries

8 Drama 71,807 Spanish 4,885 French 4,588 Classical 8,596 Studies 9 Business Studies 62,595 Business 4,832 Media/Film/TV 3,227 Drama 7,937 Studies 10 Statistics 61,040 Physical 4,738 D and T:Resistant 3,193 German 7,239 Education Materials Notes: 1. These figures have been derived from the Achievement and Attainment data and cover pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 in 2009. 2. Data for 2009 are provisional and subject to change after school checking.

Gifted Children: Finance http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/research/programmeofresearch/ projectinformation.cfm?projectld=14590&type=5&resultspage=1 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Primary Education Schools and Families how much his Department has spent on the gifted and talented programme in 2008-09; Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, and if he will make a statement. [293398] Schools and Families how many Key Stage 1 classes Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department spent £17.5 there were in each year since 2001; and if he will make million on the gifted and talented programme in the a statement. [293407] financial year 2008-09. Mr. Coaker: The information requested is shown in History: GCSE the table. Maintained primary schools: Key Stage 1 classes1, 2 Years: Position in January each year: 2001-09 (final) Coverage: England Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 Children, Schools and Families (1) how many pupils in Key Stage 1 classes Total number of classes receipt of free school meals in (a) maintained schools 2001 62,480 and (b) all schools achieved a grade A* in history 2002 61,600 GCSE in 2008; [286391] 2003 57,240 (2) how many pupils in receipt of free school meals 2004 56,590 in (a) maintained schools and (b) all schools achieved 2005 55,860 a grade A in history A level in 2008. [286392] 2006 54,390 2007 53,350 Mr. Coaker [holding answer 13 July 2009]: Of those 2008 53,160 pupils at the end of key stage 4 who were eligible to 2009 53,500 receive free school meals in maintained schools in England, 1 One teacher classes as taught during a single selected period in each 354 achieved a grade A* in GCSE History in 2008. school on the day of the census in January. 2 52 pupils aged 16-18 (age at start of academic year, Includes middle schools as deemed. 3 Includes reception classes. i.e. 31 August 2007) who were eligible for free school Note: meals in maintained schools, achieved a grade A in Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. GCE History A level in 2008. Source: The figures relate to pupils in maintained schools School Census only. Information collected regarding free school meals Primary Education: Finance forms part of the School Census which is only carried out in maintained schools. The free school meal information Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, that is linked to attainment is for those eligible for free Schools and Families how many local authorities have meals rather than those in receipt of. applied for safety valve funding to meet increased demand for primary school places; how much has been allocated Nurseries: West Yorkshire in each case; what steps he is taking to review the criteria used to make such allocations; and if he will John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [293098] Children, Schools and Families how many nursery nurses per head of population there were in (a) Leeds Mr. Coaker: We are currently appraising the 51 West constituency, (b) the City of Leeds and (c) West applications we have received for the £200 million of Yorkshire in each year since 2005. [293941] capital funding we have secured as an interim measure to support authorities which forecast exceptional growth Dawn Primarolo: This data is not available. However, in demand for primary school places by 2011. In considering national data on the numbers and characteristics of these applications, we have had discussions with a range staff in the child care and early years workforce is of local authorities and with representative bodies including collected through the Childcare and Early YearsProviders London councils and the Local Government Association, Survey. The latest survey to be published in the series is to consider the criteria we have used. Our aim is to for 2008 and was published at the end of September ensure that this funding is fairly allocated to those 2009. This can be found at the following website address: authorities with the highest need, where funding the 1559W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1560W additional places from other resources would unduly funding for (a) primary and (b) secondary school impact on other priorities. We aim shortly to announce children in Leeds West constituency was in each of the allocations. We are also, in the context of the next last five years. [294015] spending review, working on how to ensure that in the longer term there are high quality permanent pupil places where they are wanted. Mr. Coaker: The Department allocates education funding to local authorities so the requested information Pupils: Per Capita Costs for Leeds West constituency is not available. The per pupil revenue funding figures for primary and secondary John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for school pupils for Leeds local authority in 2004-05 and Children, Schools and Families what the per pupil 2005-06 are as follows. These figures are in real terms:

Real terms revenue funding per pupil (£)—EFS plus grants 2004-05 2005-06 Primary (aged 3-10) Secondary(aged 11-15) Primary(aged 3-10) Secondary(aged 11-15)

Leeds local authority 3,790 4,870 4,020 5,100 Notes: 1. Price base: Real terms at 2008-09 prices, based on GDP deflators as at 30 June 2009 2. Figures reflect relevant sub-blocks of education formula spending (EFS) settlements and include the pensions transfer to EFS. 3. Total funding also includes all revenue grants in DfES departmental expenditure limits relevant to pupils aged three-15 and exclude education maintenance allowances (EMAs) and grants not allocated at LEA level. 4. The pupil numbers used to convert £ million figures to £ per pupil are those underlying the EFS settlement calculations. 5. Rounding: Figures are rounded to the nearest £10.

The revenue per pupil figures shown in the following Notes: table are taken from the new Dedicated Schools Grant 1. This covers funding through the dedicated schools grant, school standards grant, school standards grant (personalisation) and standards (DSG). They are not comparable with those for the fund as well as funding from the Learning and Skills Council; it years 2004-05 to 2005-06 because the introduction of excludes grants which are not allocated at LA level. the DSG in 2006-07 fundamentally changed how local 2. Price base: Real terms at 2008-09 prices, based on GDP deflators as authorities are funded. at 30 June 2009. 3. These figures are for all funded pupils aged three-19. The 2004-05 to 2005-06 figures are based on education 4. Figures have been rounded to the nearest £10 formula spending (EFS) which formed the education 5. Some of the grant allocations have not been finalised. If these do change, the effect on the funding figures is expected to be minimal. part of the local government finance settlement, plus Figures are not yet available for 2009-10 various grants. This was an assessment of what local authorities needed to fund education rather than what Reading they spent. The DSG, which has been in place since 2006-07 is based largely on an authority’s previous Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, spending. In addition, the DSG has a different coverage Schools and Families what progress has been made to EFS. EFS comprised a schools block and an LEA towards the Government’s target to extend the reading block (to cover recovery scheme to 30,000 children by 2011; and how LEA central functions) whereas DSG only covers the many children are currently taking part. [294007] school block. LEA block items are still funded through DCLG’s local government finance settlement but education Ms Diana R. Johnson: Reading Recovery is a one-to-one items cannot be separately identified. Consequently, intervention that sits within the wider Every Child a there is a break in the Department’s time series as the Reader (ECaR) programme. ECaR delivers a layered two sets of data are not comparable. approach to support children at KS1 who are not reaching age-related expectations in reading. The target To provide a comparison for 2006-07 DSG, the is to extend the ECaR programme to reach 30,000 Department have isolated the schools block equivalent children by 2011, and we are currently on track to meet funding in 2005-06; as described above this does not this. Currently 19,308 children are taking part in the represent the totality of ’education’ funding in that ECaR programme, with 12,954 of those receiving one- year. to-one support through Reading Recovery.

The per pupil revenue funding figures for years 2005-06 School Improvement and Targets Unit: Finance (baseline) to 2008-09 for Leeds local authority are provided in the table below. As the DSG is a mechanism for distributing funding, a split between primary and secondary Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, schools is not available. The figures as follows are for all Schools and Families what the annual cost of the funded pupils aged three-19 and are in real terms: School Improvement and Targets Unit was in the latest period for which figures are available; and if he will Real terms revenue funding per pupil (£)—DSG plus grants pupils make a statement. [293400] aged three-19

2005-06 Mr. Coaker: The annual staffing cost of the School (Baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Improvement and Targets Unit in the 2007/08 financial year was £2,183,340. This was the last year that the unit Leeds local 4,290 4,390 4,540 4,620 was in existence as there was a reorganisation of authority departmental policy teams in 2008. 1561W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1562W

The unit was responsible for the New Relationship Number of new Proportion with with Schools programme, schools causing concern, local BSF secondary Number with sprinklers authority and school target setting, the Achievement schools sprinklers (percentage) and Attainment Tables, RAISEonline and pupil assessment. April 2009-present 28 20 71 Schools: Alcoholic Drinks April 2008 to March 34 30 88 2009 April 2007 to March 53 60 Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 Children, Schools and Families how many incidents of April 2006 to March 32 66 alcohol abuse on school grounds involving minors were 2007 reported in (a) England, (b) Essex and (c) Castle Of the 74 academies completed, six (8 per cent.) have Point constituency in each of the last five years; and if sprinkler systems installed. 15 of the 19 (79 per cent.) he will make a statement. [292669] new academy secondary school buildings planned under new funding arrangements will include sprinklers. Mr. Coaker: The requested information is not available. We do not collect data on the number of new primary The Department collects information on the reasons schools which are fitted with sprinklers. We started to why pupils have been excluded, either for a fixed period collect this data for new secondary schools in April or permanently. This includes the category for “drug 2009 following my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud’s and alcohol related”. This data is available for England (Mr. Drew) parliamentary question answered on 26 January and Essex in SFR 18/2009 ‘Permanent and Fixed Period 2009, Official Report, column 168W. Exclusions from Schools in England 2007/08’ which can be accessed at: Schools: Standards http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000860/ index.shtml Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools: Asbestos Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of 2 June 2009, Official Report, column 442W, on Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, schools: standards, for what reasons comparable Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of information for each year since 1997 is not available; 12 October 2009, Official Report, column 234W, on and for which years comparable information is schools: asbestos, when he expects the evaluation of available. [294148] responses to the questionnaire about the management of asbestos in system-built schools to be completed. Mr. Coaker: The information provided in the answer [294157] of 2 June 2009 was based on a review of the department’s field forces, providing support and challenge to LAs, Ms Diana R. Johnson: Initial evaluation of the responses conducted in autumn 2008. Comparable information is is complete. It has highlighted the need for further not available for other years since this was a one-off investigation and follow-up action. Health and Safety exercise and no equivalent exercise had been conducted Executive (HSE) officials will discuss with my Department in previous years. Information about the numbers and in November how to take this forward. costs of all field forces has not been routinely recorded The response rate from Diocese and voluntary aided centrally for each year since 1997. To collect this information schools was low. With HSE we are now considering retrospectively would exceed the cost threshold of £750 how to get information on asbestos from the voluntary applicable to central Government. aided sector. Specialist School and Academies Trust: Finance Schools: Fire Extinguishers Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Schools and Families what the income of the Specialist for Children, Schools and Families how many and what School and Academies Trust (a) was in each year from proportion of new (a) primary and (b) secondary 1999 to 2000 to 2007-08 and (b) is planned to be in schools were fitted with sprinklers in each year since each year from 2008-09 to 2010-11, from (i) central 2005. [293379] Government grants, (ii) subscriptions from schools, (iii) private sector donations and (iv) other income; and if Mr. Coaker: It is our policy, introduced in 2007 and he will make a statement. [293410] set out in published guidance, that all new schools should have sprinklers installed, except those assessed Mr. Coaker: The Specialist Schools and Academies to be at low risk of an arson attack. It is for local Trust (SSAT) is an independent registered charity which authorities and other promoters of schools to carry out receives income from a range of sources. As such, risk assessments, and ensure that sprinklers are installed DCSF does not have responsibility for monitoring its where deemed necessary. All schools should have adequate income. Audited accounts are published and available fire precautions in place to safeguard life in the event of from the Charity Commission. a fire. Sprinklers are the only fire suppression systems The DCSF funds SSAT through a range of grants used in schools. and contracts to support the Specialist Schools and 50 of the 70 (71 per cent.) secondary schools newly Academies Programmes and a range of other activities built under the Building Schools for the Future programme designed to raise pupil achievement. The total financial included sprinklers. The table gives these figures for contributions made by DCSF and its predecessors to each year. SSAT over the last eight years for which we have final 1563W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1564W information are: £2.395 million in 2001-02; £4.371 million England. Five years later, in 2007-08, 74 per cent. of in 2002-03; £11.326 million in 2003-04; £17.796 million these were recorded as still in service in the maintained in 2004-05; £24.350 million in 2005-06; £35.152 million schools sector in England. in 2006-07, £43.578 million in 2007-08 and £29.700 Many teachers return to service after a break. In million in 2008-09. 2007-08, the latest year for which figures are available, This includes both grants and contracts. DCSF negotiates around 8,500 qualified teachers returned to service in funding levels each year for individual grants and contracts. the maintained sector (all school types) after a break of We are not in a position to estimate what the level of at least one year. funding will be in future years—this will depend on our priorities at the time. Youth of Today Programme Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Teachers: Resignations Children, Schools and Families how many young people have participated in his Department’s Youth of Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Today programme (a) shadowing ministers, (b) as Children, Schools and Families (1) how many teachers part of the fellowship programme, (c) shadowing local left the profession within five years of entering it in the councillors, (d) as registered local role models since the latest period for which figures are available; [288352] programme’s inception. [293646] (2) how many teachers (a) in (i) primary and (ii) Mr. Coaker: The information is as follows: secondary schools and (b) of (A) English, (B) (a) Since the inception of the programme, no young person has mathematics, (C) history and (D) science left the shadowed a Minister. There are currently 22 opportunities to profession within five years of entering it in the latest shadow Ministers arranged to take place in the coming months; period for which figures are available; [288353] (b) 276 young people have participated in the Fellowship since (3) how many teachers who entered the profession in the inception of the programme; the maintained comprehensive sector in 2003 were still (c) 23 young people have participated in the local shadowing teaching in the sector in 2008; [288354] scheme since the inception of the programme; (4) how many teachers who entered the profession (d) 15 young people have registered as local role models since the inception of the programme, a recruitment drive to select a in the maintained sector in 2003 teaching (a) in (i) further 50 role models will be launched shortly. primary and (ii) secondary schools and (A) English, (B) mathematics, (C) history and (D) science were still Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for teaching in the sector in 2008. [288355] Children, Schools and Families how many young people were involved in the Summer 2009 fellowship Mr. Coaker: The data are not available in the exact operated by his Department’s Youth of Today formats requested. It is not possible to provide a breakdown programme; what the cost of each fellowship was; what of subjects taught by those teachers entering/leaving the was required of each fellow; and whether he plans to profession. It is not possible to separate out comprehensive publish an assessment of the effectiveness of the schools from the secondary school sector. programme. [293648] All figures provided relate to newly qualified teachers Mr. Coaker: 165 young people attended the TYOT (NQTs) who entered the maintained schools sector in Fellowship summer residential. An additional 111 young 2002-03 and who are still in service in 2007-08 (the most people will be participating in the Fellowship local recent data available). The following table shows the groups, along with those that participated in the residential, percentage of newly qualified teachers who were still in over the course of the next year. The cost of delivering service in local authority maintained schools five years this years fellowship is £617,111. after qualification. The requirements for the Fellows are to develop as The number of full and part-time1 NQTs who joined the service in 2002-03, and 2 young leaders within their community; take action through were still in service in the maintained sector in England in 2007-08 a programme of local group activity; influence others to Total Nursery/ maintained make positive change locally, nationally and globally; primary Secondary sector3 and to complete 1,000 Positive Actions by the end of their Fellowship experience. Entered service in 2002- 9,800 11,600 21,600 2003 The effectiveness of the programme will be assessed In service in 2007-20084 7,600 8,300 16,000 through an external evaluation of The Youth of Today Not in service in 2007-2008 2,200 3,300 5,600 programme.

Percentage in service after 77 72 74 five years NORTHERN IRELAND 1 Teachers in part-time service are under-recorded on the DTR by between 10 Sexual Offences and 20 per cent. and therefore these figures may be slightly underestimated. 2 Figures relating to 2007-08 are provisional and subject to change. 3 Total maintained sector includes teachers in maintained nursery, primary, Mrs. Iris Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for secondary, special schools and pupil referral units. Northern Ireland (1) how many (a) male and (b) 4 Those in service in 2007-08 will not all have been in service for the full five years; some may have left and returned to service within the five years. female sex offenders are living in residential Source: accommodation provided by (i) the NHS and (ii) Database of Teacher Records. relevant charities in Northern Ireland; [293966] Overall, 21,600 NQTs entered full or part-time service (2) by what mechanism the care and re-homing of in the maintained schools sector (includes nursery/primary, sex offenders deemed physically or mentally ill is secondary, special and pupil referral units) in 2002-03 in funded in Northern Ireland; [293967] 1565W Written Answers21 OCTOBER 2009 Written Answers 1566W

(3) what mechanisms are in place to inform healthcare of criminal justice agencies, and others, to assess and staff when a patient has a criminal conviction for sex manage risk of harm posed by the most serious offenders, offences. [293968] these questions relate specifically to areas of health and social care and are therefore matters devolved to the Paul Goggins: Although public protection arrangements, Northern Ireland Executive. for which I have responsibility, bring together a number ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 21 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 893 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Afghanistan ...... 901 Moldova ...... 902 Copenhagen Summit...... 898 Sri Lanka ...... 893 Copenhagen Summit...... 900 East Africa...... 895 Ethical Investments...... 897 PRIME MINISTER ...... 902 HIV Vaccine (Funding)...... 900 Engagements...... 902 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 21 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY HOME DEPARTMENT...... 61WS REFORM ...... 55WS National DNA Database ...... 61WS Better Regulation...... 55WS JUSTICE...... 62WS CABINET OFFICE...... 55WS Family Legal Aid ...... 62WS Draft Census (England and Wales) Order 2009...... 55WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 58WS TREASURY ...... 57WS Departmental (Correction) ...... 58WS Anti-avoidance...... 57WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 21 October 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1517W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1552W Apprentices...... 1517W Academies: Sponsorship ...... 1552W Apprentices: Unemployment...... 1518W Children: Day Care ...... 1553W Aspire Fund...... 1518W Children’s Centres: West Yorkshire ...... 1553W Business: Government Assistance ...... 1519W Class Sizes: Leeds...... 1553W Charlie Whelan ...... 1521W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 1554W Departmental Research...... 1522W European Schools: Finance...... 1555W Finance: Environment Protection ...... 1523W Family Proceedings ...... 1555W Further Education: Hampshire ...... 1523W GCSE ...... 1556W Higher Education...... 1523W Gifted Children: Finance ...... 1557W Higher Education: Bexley ...... 1524W History: GCSE...... 1557W Higher Education: Leeds...... 1524W Nurseries: West Yorkshire ...... 1557W Legal Profession: Fees and Charges ...... 1525W Primary Education...... 1558W Manufacturing Industries: Government Primary Education: Finance ...... 1558W Assistance ...... 1525W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 1559W Post Offices: Fife...... 1525W Reading...... 1560W Postage Stamps: Prices...... 1526W School Improvement and Targets Unit: Finance.... 1560W Publishing ...... 1526W Schools: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 1561W Royal Mail ...... 1527W Schools: Asbestos...... 1561W Royal Mail: Industrial Disputes ...... 1527W Schools: Fire Extinguishers...... 1561W Royal Mail: Meetings...... 1527W Schools: Standards...... 1562W Train to Gain: Finance...... 1528W Specialist School and Academies Trust: Finance.... 1562W Train to Gain Programme ...... 1528W Teachers: Resignations...... 1563W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1528W Youth of Today Programme...... 1564W

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1441W CABINET OFFICE...... 1465W Church Commissioners: Land...... 1441W Advertising Advisory Committee...... 1465W Publications ...... 1442W Damian McBride ...... 1465W Register of Interests ...... 1442W Forfeiture Committee...... 1466W Former Ministers: Pay...... 1466W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1496W Government Departments: Power of Information Communications Annual Report 2008-09 ...... 1496W Taskforce ...... 1466W Community Infrastructure Levy ...... 1496W Scotland...... 1467W Council Tax: Valuation ...... 1497W Suicide ...... 1467W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1497W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL continued AFFAIRS...... 1447W Eco-Towns ...... 1497W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 1447W Energy Performance Certificates...... 1497W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 1448W English Partnerships: Redundancy Pay...... 1498W Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination...... 1450W Fire Services...... 1498W Departmental Air Travel ...... 1451W Fire Services: Crimes of Violence...... 1499W Departmental Billing ...... 1451W Fire Services: Industrial Disputes...... 1499W Departmental Manpower...... 1451W Fire Services: Manpower...... 1500W Departmental Non-Domestic Rates...... 1452W Fire Services: Standards...... 1499W Departmental Pay ...... 1452W Fire Services: Working Hours ...... 1501W Departmental Postal Services...... 1453W Homelessness...... 1501W Departmental Procurement...... 1453W Housing: Construction...... 1501W Departmental Travel ...... 1455W Housing: Energy ...... 1502W Dogs ...... 1456W Housing: Regeneration...... 1503W Domestic Waste: Fixed Penalties...... 1457W Housing: Standards ...... 1504W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 1457W Housing: Valuation ...... 1504W Food: Origin Marking...... 1459W Legal Opinion...... 1504W Hill Farming ...... 1459W Local Government and Public Involvement in Litter...... 1459W Health Act 2007...... 1505W Marine Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund ...... 1460W Local Government: Conditions of Employment.... 1505W Milk: Prices...... 1461W Local Government: Cooperation ...... 1505W Noise: Pollution Control...... 1461W Local Government: Research...... 1505W Pet Travel Scheme ...... 1462W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 1506W Rural Areas: Low Incomes...... 1462W Multiple Occupation: Licensing ...... 1506W Waste and Resources Action Programme...... 1462W National Policy Statements ...... 1507W Waste Management...... 1462W New Economics Foundation...... 1507W Non-Domestic Rates: Advertising...... 1507W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1513W Non-Domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 1508W Afghanistan: Opium ...... 1513W Non-Governmental Organisations: Finance ...... 1508W Bosnia-Herzegovina: Politics and Government ...... 1513W Parking: Fees and Charges...... 1508W Gilad Shalit...... 1513W Parking: Supermarkets...... 1509W Guinea ...... 1514W Planning Permission: Agriculture...... 1509W Iran: Nuclear Power...... 1514W Planning Policy Statement 4...... 1510W Karpas ...... 1515W Regional Planning and Development: East of Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 1515W England ...... 1510W Northern Cyprus ...... 1515W Regional Planning and Development: South West . 1510W Somalia: Piracy ...... 1516W Shared Ownership Lending Working Group...... 1511W Sri Lanka ...... 1516W Social Rented Housing...... 1511W UN Convention on Physical Protection of Social Rented Housing: Tenants ...... 1511W Nuclear Material...... 1516W Street Warden Scheme: Clothing...... 1511W USA: Nuclear Weapons ...... 1517W Town and Country Planning Association: Finance...... 1512W HEALTH...... 1487W Travelling People: Caravan Sites...... 1512W Dental Services ...... 1487W Dental Services: Children...... 1489W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1439W Dental Services: Standards...... 1490W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 1439W Dental Services: Working Hours ...... 1490W Gun Sports: Finance...... 1440W Mental Health Services: Leeds ...... 1491W Licensing Act 2003...... 1440W Social Services: Disabled...... 1491W National Lottery: Expenditure...... 1440W National Lottery: Manpower...... 1441W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 1528W Olympic Games: Gun Sports ...... 1441W Alcoholic Drinks: Young People ...... 1528W Party Conferences...... 1441W Asylum: Children...... 1529W Sports: Public Participation ...... 1441W Asylum: Housing ...... 1529W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 1530W DEFENCE...... 1467W British Nationality ...... 1531W Armed Forces Day...... 1467W Broadcasting Programmes: Finance...... 1531W Colombia: Military Aid ...... 1468W Cybercrime: EC Action...... 1532W Defence Equipment ...... 1468W DNA: Databases...... 1532W Defence Medical Services: Manpower...... 1468W Dorset Police: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 1538W Departmental Procurement...... 1468W Fingerprints: Databases ...... 1539W Ex-Servicemen: Crime...... 1469W Forensic Science: Digital Technology...... 1540W Nuclear Weapons...... 1469W Forensic Science Service...... 1539W Territorial Army: Finance...... 1469W Identity and Passport Service: Absenteeism ...... 1540W Immigration: Children ...... 1545W Offences Against Children: Internet...... 1545W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE...... 1439W Police: Enfield ...... 1546W Elections: Investigations...... 1439W Police: Injuries ...... 1547W Police: Leeds ...... 1547W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1512W Police: Manpower ...... 1547W Warm Front Scheme ...... 1512W Public Telecommunications Systems ...... 1549W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued PRIME MINISTER ...... 1465W Stop and Search ...... 1550W Serious Fraud Office ...... 1465W UK Border Agency: Pay ...... 1550W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 1470W Corruption...... 1470W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1492W Afghanistan: Infant Mortality ...... 1493W TRANSPORT ...... 1443W Aid Target...... 1493W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing...... 1443W Copenhagen Summit...... 1492W Departmental Advertising...... 1444W Departmental Rail Travel...... 1494W Departmental Information and Communications Eritrea...... 1494W Technology ...... 1445W Eritrea: International Broadcasting...... 1494W Departmental Internet ...... 1445W Eritrea: Overseas Aid ...... 1494W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Authority: Food Security: Africa...... 1492W Advertising ...... 1445W Georgia: Armed Conflict ...... 1495W East Cost Railway Line...... 1446W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 1495W Party Conferences...... 1446W Literacy: Developing Countries ...... 1495W Railways: Birmingham...... 1446W Maternal and Child Mortality ...... 1492W Road Signs and Markings...... 1447W Millennium Development Goals ...... 1493W Waterloo Station ...... 1447W Party Conferences...... 1496W TREASURY ...... 1483W JUSTICE...... 1471W Adjudicator’s Office: Complaints...... 1483W Domestic Violence ...... 1471W Child Tax Credit: Overseas Residence...... 1484W Drugs: Crime ...... 1471W Child Trust Fund: Leeds ...... 1484W Electoral Systems: Armed Forces...... 1475W Departmental Procurement...... 1485W Jury Service...... 1477W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 1485W Pleural Plaques: Compensation...... 1477W Northern Rock...... 1485W Prison Sentences ...... 1478W Royal Mint...... 1485W Prisoners: Death ...... 1479W Taxation: Property ...... 1485W Prisoners: Mobile Phones ...... 1480W Valuation Office: Expenditure...... 1486W Prisoners: Pay ...... 1481W Valuation Office: Rightmove...... 1486W Prisoners Release ...... 1479W Welfare Tax Credits: Fraud ...... 1486W Probation ...... 1481W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1463W Remand in Custody: Young People...... 1482W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 1463W Vetting: Scotland...... 1483W Employment: Autism ...... 1463W Incapacity Benefit ...... 1463W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 1564W Pension Funds: Trustees...... 1463W Sexual Offences...... 1564W Social Security Benefits: Disabled ...... 1464W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 21 October 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 893] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Local Health Services and Democratic Involvement [Col. 914] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Dr. Pugh)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 917]

Opposition Day [19th allotted day] Equitable Life [Col. 918] Motion—(Dr. Cable)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mr. Byrne)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Climate Change (Political Response) [Col. 976] Motion—(Simon Hughes)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Joan Ruddock)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Petition [Col. 1028]

War Memorials [Col. 1029] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Private Landlords (Local Regulations) [Col. 245WH] Conservation Areas [Col. 265WH] English Libel Law (Parliamentary Proceedings) [Col. 272WH] Textile Industry [Col. 296WH] Fostering Services (Ofsted Supervision) [Col. 303WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 55WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1439W] [see index inside back page]