Vol. 742 Thursday No. 101 24 January 2013

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Education: English Baccalaureate Certificate Welfare: Personal Independence Payment Asylum Seekers: Support Egypt: Elections Business of the House Timing of Debates Olympic Games 2012: Legacy Motion to Take Note Nuclear Disarmament Motion to Take Note European Banking Union: EUC Report Motion to Take Note Green Deal Framework (Disclosure, Acknowledgment, Redress etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 Motion to Approve Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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include these core academic subjects, and that stimulus House of Lords has been extremely successful. Over the past two years, the proportion of pupils taking the EBacc has risen Thursday, 24 January 2013. from 23% to 49%, and for those schools with a high element of free school meals, it has risen from 10% to 11 am 41%. However, we will also be exhorting all schools to teach a broad and balanced curriculum, as they are Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. obliged to do and as Ofsted inspects for.

Education: English Baccalaureate Lord Bichard: My Lords, does the Minister agree Certificate that the creative industries represent one of the most Question important sectors of the British economy? However, is he aware of the acute concern across that sector about 11.06 am the way the Government appear to undervalue the teaching and learning of creative skills, not least in the Asked By Baroness Jones of Whitchurch proposals for the EBacc? Further, could he use his considerable influence to persuade the Secretary of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they State for Education just once to make a public speech will consider deferring the timetable for the proposed that recognises the importance of creative skills? introduction of the English Baccalaureate Certificate in schools in the light of concerns raised by the Confederation of British Industry and other business Lord Nash: The Government do recognise the leaders that the new examination system may not importance of creative skills. As I have said, we are meet the needs of the United Kingdom economy in keen for all pupils to have the cultural capital that the 21st century. enables them to compete. As my old friend Sir Peter Lampl at the Sutton Trust has pointed out, 7% of the population of this country go to independent, private, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for fee-paying schools and get 44% of the top jobs. Some Schools (Lord Nash): My Lords, the CBI recognises 4.9% go to grammar schools and get 27% of the top that the exam system is in need of a thorough overhaul. jobs, while the rest, 88%, get less than 30% of the top We share its view that the new system must meet the jobs. In order to enable our pupils to compete both in needs of business. We are considering all the evidence this country and internationally, they need a broad gathered through our public consultation, which closed curriculum and they must have that cultural capital. in December, and we anticipate reporting the results However, I hear what the noble Lord says and I will of that consultation, including the timetable for take these matters away for consideration. introduction, early this year.

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: I thank the Minister Baroness Walmsley: Does my noble friend the Minister for that reply and I welcome him to his new role. Given accept that assessment only by examination at the end his extensive business background, does he not share of the course discriminates against girls and some the view of other business leaders that the new exams pupils with particular disabilities, who find that they in 2015 risk causing serious long-term damage to our can demonstrate their learning more effectively through economy by downgrading skills such as engineering, coursework? If there is some concern about cheating computing and construction, and neglecting creative in coursework, surely there is another way to deal with learning? Can he also confirm that it is the Government’s that problem, rather than just disposing of coursework intention to issue pupils who do not pass their EBacc as an assessment tool. certificate with a certificate of attainment which, as anyone with experience in the state sector knows, will Lord Nash: As well as seeking views through our have no value at all with employers and universities? public consultation, we have also held focus discussions Finally, does he accept the overwhelming logic of with a number of disability and SEN expert groups putting the proposals on hold so that business leaders and are reviewing a wide range of views covering the really can help to develop a respected, work-ready proposals for all pupils. The assessment method should curriculum with exams that will enable young people be suitable for the knowledge in schools, and be fair to be successful in the modern world? and practical. The noble Baroness is right to point out the potential for unfairness with coursework but I Lord Nash: My Lords, the point underlying this know that many schools feel that controlled assessment, Question may be a little confusion about the stimulus which was introduced to combat parents doing their to the system we have created through the EBacc and a children’s coursework for them, is burdensome and broad and balanced curriculum. I should like to reassure takes up a substantial amount of time that could the noble Baroness that the Government are determined otherwise be used for teaching. to ensure that all pupils study a broad and balanced I will consider the point the noble Baroness raised curriculum so that they have the cultural capital to be about girls. Although many people believe anecdotally able to compete both in this country and in the modern that coursework favours girls, the evidence is mixed. I world. We have had to stimulate some behaviour through know she is not suggesting that it is acceptable to the EBacc because all the international evidence we discriminate against boys, who, after all, generally do have studied shows that successful international countries worse than girls in many subjects. 1179 Education: EBacc Certificate[LORDS] Welfare: PIP 1180

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, referring the omission of the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly back to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord and in a timely manner” from the text of the Bichard, can the noble Lord confirm that the Government Regulations setting out the qualifying criteria for received with enthusiasm Darren Henley’s recent excellent the payment. report on cultural education? If so, can he say how the Government plan to implement the report’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department recommendations? for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My Lords, the mobility component of the personal independence Lord Nash: We have received this report. We are payment is designed to support those disabled people considering all the responses to the consultation in who face the greatest barriers to mobility.The principle relation to the EBCs and we certainly will be taking that individuals must be able to complete activities that into account. safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a timely manner is integral to the assessment. We do not believe that this Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords— needs to be dealt with in regulations. However, we are looking urgently at whether it is possible to do this in a way that will achieve the outcomes that noble Lords Lord Broers: My Lords— and the Government want.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I thank the Hill of Oareford): I think it is the Conservatives’ turn Minister for that reply. Does he accept that, with this time. one-third of disabled people living in poverty and an estimated 42% fewer being eligible for mobility support— Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, does my noble many fearing that they will become prisoners in their friend the Minister agree that one of the most common own homes—his admission that under the new regime complaints from industry has been about the lack of some disabled people will have their specially adapted employability of so many school leavers because of vehicles taken away from them or offered to them to their lack of numeracy and literacy? Does he also buy has caused widespread disbelief and considerable agree that in the United States a lot of children are distress? Will he say how many repatriations will be taught computer programming, whereas in this country involved and at least ensure that those four words he we tend to teach technology as the use of technology, has referred to—“reliably”, “safely”, “repeatedly” and and that programming would be a great advantage? “timely”—remain in the regulations, as almost every single disability rights organisation in the country Lord Nash: This is something we have considered have urged him and the Government to do? and will consider further. The core EBacc subjects are set but we will be announcing our views shortly on the Lord Freud: My Lords, I recognise the strength of assessment method for what other subjects should be feeling around retaining those words, and we are very taken into account. actively looking at how to put them into the regulations in a way that works legally. I am planning to update Lord Broers: My Lords, I come at this from a Peers next week, on 31 January, on exactly where we slightly different angle. Can the Minister assure us that have got to. We are looking to incorporate them in those students who go on to A-levels are no longer in regulations and have a device for doing it in that way. effect forced to specialise either on the arts and humanities or on maths and the sciences, and that they will be Baroness Thomas of Winchester: My Lords, I am required to carry a broader curriculum through their encouraged by my noble friend’s words. I am not an schooling? expert in anything much at all in this House but I am an expert in not being able to walk very well. I have Lord Nash: There is no requirement for that in this form in this area because I have been through the country but we are keen that all children have a broad DWP tribunal system, so this is one area that I know curriculum through to 16, and that those who have not something about. Does my noble friend accept that if managed to make the C grade in English and maths these words are not made statutory in some way or who are going on to further education continue with another, the number of appeals will rocket so much, their English and maths. and there will be such a period of uncertainty in so many ways for so many people, that it is not worth not putting in these words? Welfare: Personal Independence Payment Question Lord Freud: My noble friend is, as always, much too modest about all her other capabilities. We are looking 11.14 am at this very actively and have clocked that there is great Asked By Lord Alton of Liverpool concern. It is not—and was not—our intention for people to be concerned about this particular area, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment and I hope that I will have a definitive approach to they have made of the effect of the proposed present to Peers in a week’s time, in plenty of time for introduction of the Personal Independence Payment the debate on the regulations, which will happen on on the mobility of sick and disabled people; and of 13 February. 1181 Welfare: PIP[24 JANUARY 2013] Asylum Seekers: Support 1182

Lord Touhig: My Lords, the Minister is on record as cause considerable worry and stress for many disabled saying that not every PIP claimant will require a people and their families. As my noble friend the face-to-face assessment. In the case of autism, will the Minister is more than aware, and as has been spoken Government ensure that evidence is collected from about today, there is concern among disabled people professionals who know an autistic person well, before at the recent change from 50 metres to 20 metres as a decision is taken on whether a face-to-face assessment the distance specified in the regulations for higher- is needed? When one is considered necessary, can he rate mobility allowance. As the timetable for PIP confirm that the assessors will be fully trained to implementation has been extended, will the Minister understand the communication difficulties associated consider providing further information on, and rationale with autism? for, this change—through seminars, for example—thereby maintaining the trust and confidence in PIP being Lord Freud: My Lords, autism is, as the noble Lord developed? points out, a really difficult area for people. It is difficult to understand and see sometimes, but we have Lord Freud: My Lords, I have to accept that there a comprehensive training set-up for ATOS and Capita, was inadequate discussion of the changes and that which will be conducting the assessment. Clearly, each there is inadequate understanding of them—just the of those people will need to be approved by the DWP. concerns that I am hearing today underline that. I Autism is among a group of quite difficult things to shall pick up the suggestion of my noble friend about assess, and I personally take his point about its importance. further communication with the relevant parties and The Government take his point and we will make sure look at how best to do that. that, when we give the approvals for that, it is one of the issues that is dealt with absolutely properly. Asylum Seekers: Support Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I am very Question disappointed that this issue did not come to the Floor of the House for proper debate. At the very least, the 11.23 am change to 20 metres should have been clearly stated in the consultation documents. The lack of consultation Asked By The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds with disabled people and all supporting evidence from experts in disability access as to what distance enables To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the practical mobility and participation mean that there is basis for their decision not to increase provision for a real risk that this issue will be open to judicial review. asylum support under Sections 4 and 95 of the Is the Minister willing to take that risk? Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 in 2012; and when they will decide on the level of such provision for 2013. Lord Freud: My Lords, the change was made because there was great concern among disability organisations about the previous draft. The concern was that only The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home people in wheelchairs would qualify for the higher Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My Lords, there is rate—that was picked up by Parkinson’s UK, the no statutory obligation to carry out an annual review Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Disability Benefits of asylum support rates and it would be wrong to raise Consortium and the National AIDS Trust, among expectations in this area given the current constraints others. That is why the change was made. I admit that on funding. However, we are committed to an approach I would have preferred there to have been more to asylum support that is fair, balanced and reasonable. consultation on the 20 metres, but there is no effective Rightly, no one who has sought our protection need change in the number of people receiving higher-rate be destitute while waiting for an application to be mobility allowance because of this change. I hope that decided, but, if it is refused and the decision is upheld noble Lords will accept my assurances on this. That by the courts, we expect these people to return home. change has made it clearer and simpler to operate this measure; it has not changed the numbers affected. The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I Before we start reassessing people in 2015, we will am grateful for, but somewhat puzzled by, that Answer. have had a full independent review which will have If the purpose of the support is to prevent anyone gone through this issue, among others, by the end of falling into destitution, how can that support be reduced 2014. in real terms by 6.2% over two years without redefining destitution? Will the Minister commit himself to studying Baroness Uddin: My Lords— the evidence for destitution in the cross-party report on asylum support for children to be published next Lord Sterling of Plaistow: My Lords, I declare my week and to take any action necessary to avoid destitution interest as chairman of Motability, which I co-founded for all, especially children? in 1977 with the late Lord Goodman. Today, we have more than 620,000 vehicles on the road, which is Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I hope that I can reassure probably the largest fleet of its type in the world. I the right reverend Prelate. There is an ongoing review fully support the principle that the welfare state should of our approach to asylum support, which I expect to help those most in need, and government are actively be concluded by the end of the financial year. That implementing that principle, but we must appreciate review will take into account the views of partners, that uncertainty about the effect of these changes will including any recommendations set out in the report 1183 Asylum Seekers: Support[LORDS] Egypt: Elections 1184

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] here. What plans have the Government to publicise the of the Children’s Society inquiry into asylum support availability of accessing national insurance payments for children and young people, due to be published that have been made in Poland, Estonia, or wherever, next week, I believe. in the United Kingdom? I put on record my thanks to the right reverend Prelate for his involvement in the production of the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: As my noble friend rightly report. As noble Lords might assume, any changes to points out, this is a slightly different question. Indeed, the arrangements will be reported to Parliament. those benefits are payable by the Department for Work and Pensions rather than the Home Office, but I Lord Avebury: My Lords, I declare an interest as a am sure that I can communicate my noble friend’s member of the All-Party Group on Children. Is my suggestion to my colleague in that department. noble friend aware that it is unreasonable and unfair not to uprate the benefits paid to asylum seekers in common with all other recipients of benefit? With Egypt: Elections respect to Section 4 support, how much is saved by Question having a different regime for those people compared to those on Section 95 support? Would it not be better 11.29 am if every asylum seeker was on the same level of benefit, Asked By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon to avoid driving those on Section 4 support into destitution, as has happened? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that international observers Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My noble friend makes a are invited to monitor the forthcoming election in very good point. In the briefing that I had before Egypt. answering this Question, I was surprised to discover that there were two levels of benefit. It is important to The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities emphasise what I said in answer to the right reverend and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Prelate’s supplementary question: a review is going on Office (Baroness Warsi): My Lords, we have raised and we should await that to see what recommendations international election monitoring with the Egyptian it makes. It must be important to take on board the authorities. They have published guidelines for international point that my noble friend makes. observation for the forthcoming parliamentary elections. The Carter Center and the Electoral Institute for Sustainable Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, as we have Democracy in Africa, both of which have been funded heard, children are the most vulnerable and at their from the UK’s Arab Partnership for previous elections most vulnerable in asylum and immigration cases. In in Egypt, have also had constructive discussions with the coalition agreement, it was pledged to end all child the Egyptian authorities. They expect to be allowed to detention for immigration, and the mid-term review deploy observers for these elections. states that that pledge has been kept. Up to October last year, 113 children have been detained, albeit some Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful in the more family-friendly unit at the Cedars, but 41 for the response from the Minister. Tomorrow is the were detained elsewhere. In October 2012, 16 children second anniversary of the Egyptian revolution, when were being held in detention; there were eight in the the Arab spring arrived in Tahrir Square with people Cedars and another eight in other centres, including taking to the streets to demand democracy, social Yarl’s Wood and Tinsley House which has not even justice and equal rights. Does the noble Baroness been approved by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons. share my disappointment at the way in which the new Can the Minister confirm whether any children are constitution was adopted, and does she agree that the today in detention, including in the Cedars? flawed process makes it even more important that the elections to the first National Assembly are free, fair Lord Taylor of Holbeach: No, I cannot confirm that and transparent? to the noble Baroness; I do not have the up-to-date figures. As she indicated, there is a clear drive by the Baroness Warsi: Tomorrow is an important anniversary. Government to eliminate situations where children are The noble Baroness is right; it is two years since the kept in those settings and to find alternative ways to start of the revolution. Of course we have some concerns accommodate families so that children are not separated, as to how the constitution was adopted. Among other if that is possible. things, although the vote in the end may have been I should point out that the level of support for over 60%, the turnout itself was quite low at just over families in this country is far greater for a family of 30%. We also have some specific concerns about four, for example, compared with Sweden or Denmark. contentious elements within the constitution but we Indeed, if there is any sector where there is a lesser are encouraged by the fact that there is now a review payment than elsewhere, it tends to be for single process. Like the noble Baroness, I look forward to adults. parliamentary elections later this year.

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: To come from a slightly Baroness Deech: Does the Minister agree that different angle, so many of those from the European monitoring elections is insufficient in itself to guarantee Union who come to the UK find themselves destitute democracy? You cannot have a proper election without 1185 Egypt: Elections[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1186 freedom of speech and freedom of communication, Baroness Warsi: I am always cautious when I stand while not locking up journalists and allowing women at the Dispatch Box and say that I have absolute to participate fully. confidence that something will happen in another country over which I do not have any control, so I Baroness Warsi: The noble Baroness makes an probably cannot give my noble friend that assurance. important point. Democracy is not just about going to We were hopeful that those elections would take place the ballot box and putting a vote in it. It is about within about two months of the constitution, which ensuring the whole process around that by making should have been around the end of February possibly. sure that people feel that they can have their say; that However, some concerns about electoral law have been political parties can operate freely; that all in the raised, which have been passed to the judiciary. We country can feel that they have a right to vote; and that hope that elections for the Majlis Al-Chaab will take there is commentary about different political opinions. place this summer. In relation to the upper house, that I agree with the noble Baroness. is functional.

Lord Chidgey: My noble friend will be aware that Lord Alton of Liverpool: Will the Minister agree to last week the Carter Center issued its recommendations meet a delegation of the UK Copts, of which I am for reforms, which are critical to Egypt’s electoral honorary president, to consider especially the question process. It is repeating calls for many of the reforms of the outright, institutionalised discrimination in the that it called for after the previous elections in 2011-12. constitution against Egyptian Copts, who have faced Can my noble friend tell the House how confident or executions and the burning of their churches? otherwise the Government are that the election observation mission that has now been sanctioned by the Egyptian Baroness Warsi: The noble Lord is aware that this is Government will be any more effective in delivering a a subject that is close to my heart. In relation to my free, fair and transparent election process than previously, human rights brief, I have made it a priority. I hosted a particularly in regard to the role of women and to ministerial conference earlier this week that focused voter education and information? specifically on the freedom of religion and belief. This sought to build consensus around the arising issue of religious intolerance. I will meet members of the Coptic Baroness Warsi: My noble friend is right that concerns church when I visit Egypt and will raise these matters. have been raised by the Carter institute. It is one of the reasons why our Arab Partnership has been funding that institute. One of the main themes of the Arab Business of the House Partnership, which was set up by the Government two Timing of Debates years ago, is to engage in the democratic process and strengthen civil society to be much more vocal about 11.36 am concerns over forthcoming elections. We continue to engage with all authorities in Egypt. The Foreign Tabled By Lord Hill of Oareford Secretary was there in September; the Minister responsible That the debates in the names of the noble Lords for asset recovery, Jeremy Browne, was in Egypt only Lord Mawson and Lord Ramsbotham, set down for last week to speak specifically on that, and I hope to today shall each be limited to two and a half hours. be visiting in February. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, on behalf Baroness Uddin: My Lords, what is the Minister’s of my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford, I beg to assessment of women’s participation in the forthcoming move the Motion standing in his name on the Order election process, given the role that the women of Paper. Egypt played not only in Tahrir Square but subsequently? What representation can she make to ensure that the Motion agreed. observers who come also include women from different parts of the world, so that Egyptian women can take some support from the idea that other women are also Olympic Games 2012: Legacy with them? Motion to Take Note

Baroness Warsi: The noble Baroness makes an 11.36 am important point. I can assure her that the Government Moved By Lord Mawson have been raising the issue of women’s rights both in relation to the election and more widely, such as the To move that this House takes note of the role of way in which the rights of women have been drafted communities, the arts and creative industries in into the current constitution. I also assure her that in delivering a lasting legacy to the Olympics, and of my discussions next month, women’s rights will certainly the lessons that can be learnt more broadly. be raised. This Minister certainly does not need prompting to raise them. Lord Mawson: My Lords, as we enter 2013 we are all conscious that we will remember 2012 as the year of Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Is my noble friend confident the Olympics and Paralympics, and be thankful for that there will be elections in Egypt this year or will it the many men and women from across this country be yet another question of one man, one vote, once? who came together and made the Games the world-class 1187 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1188

[LORD MAWSON] our economy from the heart of the lower Lea Valley success that they were. But it is now time to move on for over a thousand years. The time has come to and focus on the longer-term legacy of this investment capture the glorious history of east London’s trading and human endeavour. For me, today, that focus on past and to build a new city fit for the future, a city not legacy must now be on east London, which hosted the defined by poverty and dependency, as in east London’s Games and made them possible in the first place. recent past, but by human endeavour and entrepreneurial There is no doubt that the Games accelerated public spirit. We are in the moment: the biggest opportunity and private sector investment in east London and which we all must now grasp is to change east London inspired a generation of young people and adults. for ever. The question is, how? There is a great deal to build on, but to ensure that this A clue lies in the £1 billion regeneration programme positive impact is sustained and to stop our legacy of work in Poplar where ground-breaking work has from being the white elephant that it has become for been done by the local housing company and its many previous host countries, we now need to focus. partners, which are starting to demonstrate in practice Over the past year, politicians and the media have how you can work with local residents in housing shown us a carefully co-ordinated view of the Games estates to move us all on from the familiar dependency and our society through the lens of a flattering telescope. cultures and create enterprising communities focused Today, I want to share with you the view up the on entrepreneurial and business activity, bringing together telescope—a perspective whose roots come from working truly joined-up projects that start to connect health, in East London on the ground for the last 30 years; a education, housing and enterprise. This is the future. local perspective, the view of a neighbour from the For those of us living and working in the lower Lea heart of the lower Lea Valley. Valley, the big story for us—barely noticed by the The first thing to say is that for those of us who live Olympic project—is the entrepreneurial culture that is and work in the lower Lea Valley, the Olympics are not growing among local people as communities embrace and never have been the biggest show in town. The an enterprise culture in its many forms and move on Games acted as a very important catalyst and we have from a dependency culture that is so often driven by hailed them as a significant milestone half way through the public sector institutions. As one example, when I a 50-year journey in regeneration. This journey began arrived in east London 30 years ago most charities over 25 years ago and was led by the noble Lord, Lord were suspicious of business. Today, the Bromley by Heseltine, who took the first tentative steps in arresting Bow Centre, which I founded, has only 6% of its east London’s decline by creating the London Docklands funding dependent on the public sector; most of our Development Corporation and later encouraging the relationships as a local community organisation are development of the Canary Wharf financial district. with business. A part of this big story is the practical Through his bold vision the lower Lea Valley once working relationships developing between major again found its place on the global map. businesses and the social enterprise sector. Today, a new city—a new metropolitan district of So, how do we similarly turn the rhetoric of legacy London—is emerging in the lower Lea Valley. Many into reality? What needs to happen now to maximise of us locally call it Water City, and here I must declare this legacy opportunity and grasp the moment? First, an interest as chairman of the Water City CIC. This we must start with the people and the place, not with city stretches from the developments in Greenwich the policy or strategy. The Olympics showcased what and around the O2. It takes in City Airport, which is can be achieved when this latent energy and talent is growing fast, and the accelerating global investment in harnessed. In my experience, communities and places the Royal Docks—which includes the Abu Dhabi often reinvent themselves organically from within, and national exhibition and conference centre, the Siemens the good news is that the conditions are now right: Crystal and the Emirates Air Line cable car, the £3.7 billion many local leaders and entrepreneurs are up for this of investment taking place in Canning Town and the journey in east London. There exists in east London a business district at Canary Wharf, which may double real opportunity for innovation: to explore, for example, in size over the next decade. on the first Olympic village what those key words in The scale of international investment in the lower the Health and Social Care Act “enterprise”, “innovation” Lea Valley is truly staggering. Ten minutes on the and “integration” might actually mean in practice. Jubilee line will take you to the Westfield shopping How do we explore them, and how do we prevent the centre, which has had more than 48 million visitors procurement rules preventing us from doing innovation? since it opened. The Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park is Secondly, we must now take the long-term view. a stone’s throw to the north-west—and here I must Phase 2 of this 50-year regeneration journey is just declare an interest as a director of the LLDC, where beginning, and we have at least 25 years of focused we plan to build five new villages and connect these hard work ahead of us. One of our problems in east communities into the surrounding area. Then, of course, London is the public sector endlessly restructuring a short distance to the west, in Hackney, you have itself around those of us trying to build fully engaged Tech City: a significant growth area in modern technology communities. We have too many good people coming whose tentacles are already starting to spread into and going in the merry-go-round of public sector both the park and the Canary Wharf districts. structures. The recently defunct London Thames Gateway Many of us locally call this colossus Water City Development Corporation, for example, spent many because of the 6.5 miles of river and canals that millions of pounds on policies, strategies and plans, surround London Docklands and connect the many but actually built very little. We need to understand, as pieces of this regeneration jigsaw. Water has driven the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, describes in his excellent 1189 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1190 report No Stone Unturned, that the energy and drive in and build on them, but that along the way—that local communities does not come from Whitehall or through this 25-year-plus task—new Administrations necessarily from London government but comes from will come along, reinvent the wheel around us, and the those already living and working there. But government continuity that we now need to build thriving sustainable needs to get behind these people and start showing communities will be lost. This once in a lifetime active and sustained support. The GLA says that there opportunity in east London now demands that all will be no money in 2015, and some people are privately political parties, whether in or out of office, use the murmuring, “Let’s throw it all in the air!”. No. Let us time we now have to understand what works on the stick with the project, talk with the private sector and ground, build on it and back success. work it out. All our experience tells us that we need Over the past three years I have chaired the All-Party consistent leadership in east London over the next Group on Regeneration, Sport and Culture, and during quarter of a century. The job is not done: we are that time we have run a number of visits for Peers and simply at the end of the beginning. MPs by boat into the lower Lea Valley. I think many We all need to continue to focus hard on attracting colleagues have been surprised by the scale of the business to the area. We need to get the international investment and the opportunities that now exist there. train stopping at Stratford station; we need to get a Sir David Varney, former CEO of Shell and chairman proper Thames crossing in place, a tunnel and a bridge; of O2, recognised on his trip that the valley has the and we need to invest in new schools, university technical potential to be one of the most significant business colleges and higher education institutions that will investment areas in Europe. But let us get the detail enable young east Londoners to grab hold of opportunity. right. We need a joined-up narrative for the investment In particular, getting University College London to community across the world that has integrity and is Stratford will be another game changer for east London. deeply connected to the social, economic and demographic Thirdly, did you know that the lower Lea Valley is realities on the ground. home to the largest artistic and creative community I hear lots of politicians quoting numbers and outside New York? I still fail to understand why the statistics on social housing and the like when they talk BBC did not decide to move a key component of its about legacy. That is all very well, but as those of us operation into the middle of this dynamic environment. who live, work and have to build buildings there know, The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, did so much to try the key task now is to build sustainable communities and make this happen, but maybe my noble friend which are defined not by ticking boxes but by diversity—by Lord Hall can revisit this opportunity as he takes the thriving communities who see that they have a life wheel of the BBC this year. This is a fantastic opportunity there for themselves and their children, and who will for a key cultural institution to have a base in this new invest wholeheartedly in the place. It is about the and emerging dynamic area of London. Stop looking detail of how you do this in practice. west: start looking east. Fourthly, organic growth and partnership working Communities are about people like Leanne Doig. is key to innovation. If the five Olympic villages are to Leanne is a 20 year-old woman from Canning Town become thriving and enterprising communities, and who has wanted to get into the construction business not just another group of soulless east London housing for as long as she can remember but was always told estates, then the public sector needs to see this new city that she could not because she did not have what it landscape as a real opportunity to innovate and experiment takes—mainly that she was a girl and not a boy. She on many fronts. It is not the public sector’s job to do got her basic qualifications at college but her big everything for us, but it is its job to create enabling opportunity came with an apprenticeship on the Queen conditions. Elizabeth Olympic Park for the transformation works. She says: A key component of the future of the lower Lea Valley is going to be science and technology, just as the “I want to own my own Company and have loads and loads of valley was in the past the birthplace of modern women working for me”. biotechnology and the place where plastics, petrol She also says: refining and bone china were invented, and where “I’ve been brought up here my whole life and all people ever perfumes, rockets and airplanes were developed. One do is look down on east London … to have the Park will change project I am working on with Professor Brian Cox—I things because it will give everyone a chance”. declare my interest—aims to connect science education That is the spirit of young east Londoners that we to health and business development on the edge of the must encourage. Leanne is a young woman who is park, to help make London and the UK the best place excited about her part of town. She has spotted the in the world to do science. This illustrates the kinds of opportunities that the changes in east London are relationships between science, education and business creating for her and her peers, and is grabbing them that are starting to emerge among the next generation with both hands with energy and entrepreneurial intent. of young east Londoners. She understands that the route to equal opportunities There are concerns locally as we look forward as is through practical hard work and inspiration. Is that colleagues in the public, business and social enterprise not what the Games were all about? Why should sectors. Will large public sector bodies, which have a regeneration be anything different? My question to track record of missing opportunities in east London the Minister is: what are the Government now going and messing up on the detail, kill the entrepreneurial to do to help us grab hold of this bigger picture in the spirit that is in east London today? We worry in the lower Lea Valley, to connect the dots and to learn midst of this opportunity that government will not from this new city rising like a phoenix in the East End learn the lessons of what actually works on the ground of London? 1191 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1192

11.51 am During the Olympics, 1.5 million people visited ExCeL. The figure for the Olympic Park is even more Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I congratulate substantial. In 2012, 5 million people visited ExCeL. the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on introducing this An important element of these major success stories debate and on the excellent speech that he made in in east London is that we have made people recognise setting out his vision for what needs to happen in the how accessible the area is and the quality of the development of east London. Many of your Lordships facilities that now exist there. The area will create know that few people know more about that area, or enormous economic benefit for London and considerable have contributed a greater personal commitment to it, economic benefit for the United Kingdom. than the noble Lord. I think that the only thing that he got wrong was the time. As he was speaking, I reflected ExCeL is now in the business of trying to attract on when I first got involved. In 1979, 34, years ago, major international conventions. London, with all its Michael Heseltine and I flew over the dockland area. amazing attractions and facilities, was ranked 20th in We looked down on 5,000 derelict acres, which were a the world in market share of big international conventions. couple of miles from some of the most valuable real I am proud to say that, given the number of bookings estate in the world—the City of London—and made a taken at ExCeL, we have already moved up to seventh great cry that something must be done. I had the in the world ranking. Given the quality of the other privilege of taking through the Local Government, facilities that London offers, I cannot believe that it Planning and Land Act 1980, which set up the London will not end up in the top four, with all the benefit that Docklands Development Corporation, out of which that would bring. ExCeL generates £1.8 billion worth flowed so much, including Canary Wharf. of economic benefit a year. A recent PwC report said that 32,000 jobs are derived directly or indirectly from I must declare an interest. For the past 18 years, I activities at ExCeL. We have latched on to an important have been involved in the creation and establishment industry in the world today: that is, hospitality and of ExCeL, which is now a world-class, international tourism. It is a major employer in all sorts of different convention and exhibition centre. Kindly, the noble activities and a major boost for the economies of Lord, Lord Mawson, referred to it as one of the key those countries that can develop it. It offers considerable growth elements in east London. That is particularly employment at a time of obvious concern about satisfying because I agree very much with what he said employment opportunities. I am not talking just about about government bodies and public bodies coming ExCeL but the whole tourism and hospitality industry and going. I am very proud that we built ExCeL. It in which the United Kingdom needs to have a share. was a private sector venture, without any great government As regards the Olympic legacy, one of the things subsidy. Most big convention and exhibition centres that people around the world noted was not just the around the world are owned either by the city or the quality of the facilities at the Olympics but the niceness government. They usually lose money and are a charge of the people involved in them. The Games makers on the ratepayer. I am very proud that ExCeL has and the Games ambassadors did a wonderful job for established itself as a successful and valuable addition London and for Britain. Until I came to prepare my to the economy of London. speech, I did not realise that 40% of London’s population In our early days, it was a great battle to get were born overseas. Therefore, whatever country you recognition for east London. When I first talked about come from, you will probably find a few of your fellow ExCeL, a lot of people thought that it would be countrymen in London willing to welcome you to the somewhere near Southend. There used to be a great bias city, and that was the case with the Games. Indeed, the in favour of west London and the centre of London. Games makers were almost as important as the quality In terms of the population and its distribution, the of the facilities. That is one of the legacies that will centre of London has now moved: many noble Lords undoubtedly survive and I hope that other parts of the will know that it used be at Hyde Park Corner, is now country recognise it. thought to be at Tower Bridge and is steadily moving The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and I have worked east. A lot of people thought that it was rather inaccessible. together closely in a number of areas, and we know One of the most valuable legacies of the Olympics has how good the co-operation is between the different been the recognition by so many people of how easy it bodies—Newham council, the City airport, Westfield, now is to get there. There was enormous investment by Canary Wharf, Transport for London and the DLR. successive Governments, both the present and previous, We know the people involved in those bodies and are in improving communications in east London. on Christian name terms with one another. This legacy ExCeL is now considered to be probably one of the is coming together for the benefit of the people of east best connected major venues in the world in terms of London and London as a whole. It is developing and its communications given the proximity of the DLR, has reached a critical mass. As the noble Lord said, it the Jubilee line and the City airport, not forgetting one will take many years to go forward but the only way is of the most amazing attractive new ventures comprising up. I congratulate him on the contribution that he has the Emirates AirLine: that is, the cable car which runs made to help this legacy move forward. from the O2 to ExCeL. I recommend it to any of your Lordships who have not been on it. I took my grandson Noon on it during the Olympics and he insisted on going on it three times as he found it so enjoyable. However, the Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I am very grateful area has battled to get recognition. In this respect the indeed for the opportunity that the noble Lord, Lord Olympic legacy to which the noble Lord referred is Mawson, has offered the House to reflect on the very important. legacy of the Olympics. Like the noble Lord, Lord 1193 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1194

King of Bridgwater, I pay tribute to his extraordinary Above all, the Olympics connected with the reality role, not only over the past 20 years but in the way he of who we are and the diversity of our community—a has seized the opportunities that the Olympics presented country used to living in the light and shade of history. to go forward. That was clear in his excellent speech. Everywhere people saw where they lived in a new light He has agreed that I can extend the terminology of the as they saw their reflection in the torch as it went debate very slightly to talk about our physical and through, whether it was at Stonehenge or in our cultural heritage, but I can also reflect on what he has medieval and historic towns. Who will forget the images said in that context about regeneration and the way in of London, the three-day eventing in Greenwich Park which that heritage not only formed some of the most or beach volleyball on Horse Guards Parade? Apart powerful images of the Olympics but helped to show from the sheer pride in place— which is beyond price—the some of the opportunities available to us. community benefits in other ways. First, it benefits, I hope, in the way in which heritage is viewed, valued The Olympic vision gave essentially and crucially a and will be protected in the future. As the noble Lord, defining and dynamic role to our heritage. I declare an Lord King, said, we have seen the extraordinary interest as the chair of English Heritage. I was very phenomenon of joyful volunteerism, which I think, impressed by the way in which the confidence in our like measles, will spread to places that it may not yet culture, our creativity and our communities came across have reached. I know that English Heritage will be in those images and what they said to the rest of the taking advantage of that. world, not least in terms of community engagement. I start with the fabulous opening ceremony, which depicted I turn specifically to the Cultural Olympiad and the extraordinary sweep of history from ancient one of the projects in which English Heritage was earthworks to the rural and pastoral scene, to the involved, Discovering Places, a grass-roots campaign Industrial Revolution and to the National Health of live events, performances, online blogs and social Service. It presented breathtaking imagery, which told media bringing together more than 250,000 people in us who we are, who we think we are and where we have this country to discover their local built and historic come from. What I found most stirring was the dramatic environments. These were pioneering partnerships. Of demonstration that our present brilliance in the two course, arts and heritage go together. There is no critical creative industries of design and engineering, contest; it is not new. But the Cultural Olympiad in which we have a global lead, are rooted in the genius broke down some of the barriers between culture, the of the Industrial Revolution, stretching from Brunel arts, heritage and technologies. It encouraged risk, to Sir Tim Berners-Lee. We witnessed the extraordinary shoved out the boundaries and engaged on an innovative forging of the rings from the furnaces of the past and scale. It showed that there are innovative ways of the creation of a beautiful, exemplary democratic bringing arts and heritage together in the physical torch, an illustration that our legacy must lie in our framework, such as, for example, setting fire to Stonehenge. future with intensive investment in innovation, design That actually worked all right. I could give many and engineering, because that is what we are very examples, but what I am trying to say is that the good at. Olympics and Paralympics gave us a unique opportunity to showcase the monuments, the buildings and the The point is that we know how to do it. You have beautiful places that are our legacy. That legacy would only to walk through St Pancras these days and look not have existed if our predecessors had not recognised at the way in which the Kings Cross quarter is developing that it was necessary to protect it. Part of the legacy to see the extraordinary fusion of three centuries of should be to ensure that we understand and care for it, engineering and architectural genius and the incorporation and protect it more effectively, so that it can serve the of the old and the new. We must think not only of future more energetically. London but of the images presented of the rest of the country. They include the mills and weaving sheds; the I shall end by advising noble Lords that 2013 may fragile and rather scarce industrial memories, which be the morning after the party but for our cultural are becoming the powerhouses of the future; communities heritage it is the beginning of the party, as we celebrate engaged in setting up local technical universities; vibrant in 2013 the centenary of the Ancient Monuments Act, arts centres; community enterprise; and high-tech introduced in this House by a Private Member’s Bill. industries. We hear no longer the clacking of the The Act recognised for the first time that there are looms but the whizzing and whirring of brains in some physical remains of the nation’s history that are these places. so special and so significant that only the nation itself can look after them properly to secure their survival One aspect of our community legacy will be to and lay the foundations for a world class heritage ensure that our heritage is seen as something that protection system. That collection of 850 monuments serves the future—something to be picked up confidently all over Britain, cared for by the leading cultural at local and community levels as part of regeneration institutions—English Heritage, Cadw and Historic and industrial policy, as it is already doing in the East Scotland—tell the story of the nation. This year we End. Indeed, English Heritage invested £1 million in will be telling the story of the nation in that way, and I one project, High Street 2012, which saw the restoration hope that noble Lords will enjoy it and join us in doing of buildings along Mile End Road and new listings it. We are celebrating what our predecessors achieved, along the route, involving children in identifying the and we will be inviting those communities to step most important buildings and drawing them, further into history. One of my hopes is that there will showing which meant the most to them in their be increasing commitment in local communities to community. That is an excellent legacy for the protection looking after their local heritage. Above all, I want of the future that legacy and the Olympics this year, which made it 1195 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1196

[BARONESS ANDREWS] cultural activity. We are here to talk about legacy, and so much more plausible, to show that we are neither we must ensure that these people continue to do this. tied to the past nor indifferent to it. We are very We must ensure that the fact that the strongest interest comfortable in making the old serve the new. Our in the Olympiad came from younger audiences and heritage is not static; it is not separate from life but ethnic minorities is not lost but built upon. We must dynamic. It is something that we are not afraid to ensure that the innovative new partnerships that creators change. It is our competitive edge and we should build forged online, and at local, regional and national level, on it. That is something that we will owe to the continue. Olympics as well. We on these Benches welcome the Arts Council’s initiative of a creative employment programme of 12.07 pm apprenticeships and paid internships in the cultural sector for unemployed 16 to 24 year-olds. We welcome Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, I the setting up of a creative people and places fund that join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, will focus investment on parts of the country where on securing this debate. people’s involvement in the arts is significantly below The modern Olympic movement was created by average. However, the most important thing is that we Pierre de Coubertin, an amateur boxer, but also a continue to create the creators. In this area we face not part-time poet. The cornerstone to his vision in reviving a jobs problem but a skills problem. The Next Gen. the Olympics was to bring sport and culture together report published last year drew attention to the fact in one great festival. That, of course, was precisely that our education system was not keeping up with the what London did in 2012. Its Cultural Olympiad was times, and in particular that the way ICT is taught in a triumph, and here I pay tribute to the noble Lord, schools did not provide the appropriate skills. The Lord Hall of Birkenhead, who so brilliantly chaired good news is that the coalition Government listened. the Cultural Olympiad board, Ruth Mackenzie, director A draft programme of study for ICT, which from 2014 of the Cultural Olympiad and Dame Tessa Jowell who will include a computer programming option, has been was so pivotal in its original conception. developed, and last October the Secretary of State for Like the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, I refer Education announced bursaries of £20,000 for 50 top back to Danny Boyle’s opening ceremony—a beautiful, graduates to train as computer science teachers. brilliant spectacular. It was complex, self-deprecating However central the understanding of technology in its narrative, although not in its conception and has become to the creative industries, they are still execution, and deeply humorous. As well as a celebration underpinned by creativity itself. The creative economy of the entity that is the United Kingdom this was a needs creative employees—people who are skilled not showcase for our creativity and for our creative industries. just in computer science but also in art and other Take James Bond, which is, first, the product of writer creative subjects. Darren Henley’s report on cultural Ian Fleming; then of film makers, actors, special effects education is another crucial element in delivering a creators, costume and set designers, and those who lasting creative legacy. The Secretary of State for make the costumes and sets. And finally, in Boyle’s Education greeted the Henley review with huge dazzling tangle of fiction and fact, the fictional spy enthusiasm. The government response to the review, gets to meet the factual Queen and her corgis. published last February, stated that a national plan for The ceremony also celebrated music, television and cultural education would follow immediately. The last art, and how art and design come together in such time I asked when this would happen—because despite wonderful creations as Thomas Heatherwick’s cauldron the “immediately”, it still has not—I was told that it and, centre stage, literally, Tim Berners-Lee, the British would be at the beginning of this year. Will the Minister creator of the world wide web. It was shot through assure me that this is still the case and therefore that with recognition of our creative accomplishments—and publication is imminent? it was a huge accomplishment in its very self. There is concern about the lack of a sixth strand to This debate invites us to take note of the role of the EBacc that would cover creative subjects. It was communities. The Cultural Olympiad pledged to argued that this was not necessary and that there was encompass thousands of local and regional events as plenty of room for them in the curriculum. But it is all part of our nationwide celebration—and it did. Martin about perception. Grayson Perry stated: Creed’s “Any Bell. Anyone. Anywhere.” was one of the “If arts subjects aren’t included in the EBacc, schools won’t Olympiad’s biggest community projects. At 8.12 pm stop doing them overnight … By default, resources won’t go into on 27 July, almost 3 million people across the UK rang them. With the best will in the world, schools will end up treating arts subjects differently”. bells to celebrate the first day of the Games. They included individuals, communities and organisations; There is evidence that this is already happening. A enthusiastic children; change-ringing experts; Big Ben; participant at a recent Westminster Education Forum and the bells of the UK Parliaments and of British described how he had, embassies across the world. “spoken to many headteachers who are cutting subjects from their Key Stage 4 curriculum in order to feed into the EBacc … So In all, 621 productions and projects resulted in … now the school is saying, geography is in the EBacc, drama 13,000 performances and events at 1,270 venues across isn’t, we really, really recommend you do geography, or in some the UK. There was street art and high art, hip hop and cases you have to”. ballet. Everywhere, new audiences were introduced to For us to continue to excel we must place creative the arts. LOCOG estimates that 19 million people subjects at the heart of our education system. If a participated in the Cultural Olympiad, and that 10 million sixth strand to the EBacc is not to be, I am sure that people have been inspired to continue to take part in the Minister will agree that action must be taken to 1197 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1198 ensure that head teachers do not treat creative subjects long term. Now that the Games are over, it is important as second-class. Grayson Perry’s prediction must not to consider how Queen Elizabeth Park blends into and be allowed to come true. defines the local community, and this is what I hope Dame Tessa Jowell said in 2008 that the 2012 the LLDC will do. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Olympics presented, Mawson, is passionate about this, and I strongly support “a rare chance and a real opportunity: to deepen and widen his work. The park cannot be an oasis that isolates or engagement with culture in all its forms”. displaces the local community. In the lead-up to the Games, much time and thought was given to the The Cultural Olympiad delivered this. We must ensure employment of people from the host boroughs, diversity that the Olympic legacy lasts. and procurement, involving people from every background. This work is not massively high-profile 12.14 pm or of much interest to the media, but it needs to continue now that the Games have moved on. Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I declare my interests: I was involved in LOCOG until the end of As an athlete, I moved in and out of cities, often not the Games and have been recently appointed to the spending much time there. My first Games were in London Legacy Development Corporation alongside Seoul, which bid for the Games because it was about the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, who I thank for tabling showing vitality and that it was a modern city and was this debate. technologically up to date. The organising committee sold the Olympic village and media centre a year I am delighted to be talking about the legacy of the before the Games for $264 million but the Paralympics Games but, for once, not about sport. Sport is still had a different village, as there was concern that really important and I will still keep campaigning for people would not want to live where all those disabled good school sports, but much effort is expended, not people had been. However, they did sell the village on. least in the media, on measuring participation figures Many disabled people at that time were begging on the and debating appropriate levels of physical activity streets, and the Games gave them the opportunity to and what elite sport is going to look like in the 1,289 change their lives. It was sad, however, that many of days to the Olympics and 1,322 days to the Paralympics the Paralympians who we saw compete were not able in Rio. That is okay. Through the Games, I was to carry on their career after 1988. This cannot be said introduced to a much wider constituency of people. I of Britain. found that people from culture were not different; we had very similar aims of inspiring people to do something Barcelona was more publicly known for its different. We must continue this communication. regeneration, but by 1993 33% of the village was not sold. Athens was about reorganisation, and as athletes I was involved in the bid from 10 years ago because we were simply grateful that the village was built and I wanted to consolidate the Paralympics in the UK, finished, or at least nearly finished. and I think that we have achieved that. I was in Madrid last year with the Foreign Office, and members Sydney was about tourism, and was my first experience of the bid team there told me that they had very strong of bids. I was part of the Manchester bid, and it did evidence to prove the economic advantage of just not matter that we had years—I think around 60 years—of being a candidate city, let alone of winning the Games. data to show that in spring Sydney had significantly There is also strong evidence for that from other cities. more rain than Manchester did in summer. All they When I went to Stratford for the first time in 2004, I had to do was hold up a picture of the Sydney Opera found it almost impossible to imagine how the Games House and a beach, and we lost. Actually, possibly could happen. An integral part of the bid in 2005 was they had to do a bit more than that. showing the amazing history, culture and art that is The Beijing Games helped to change the city. In the UK. I will never forget the moment when the noble 2000 it had 392 hotels and 80,000 hotel rooms. This had Lord, Lord Coe, stood in front of the IOC and asked risen to 800 hotels and 180,000 hotel rooms by 2008. the children in the audience who had come from the These days I am pleased to say that, beyond sport, East End of London to stand, in order to show the the Cultural Olympiad is expected to add significantly world what we meant by diversity. to the prestige and prosperity of the Games. Through I asked Kate Allenby, an Olympian as well as a 2012 I was delighted to see projects, funded through teacher, about the effects that she had seen from the Unlimited, that celebrated the work of deaf and disabled Games. She said, “The linking of arts and culture artists on an unprecedented scale. through the tool of Boyle’s opening ceremony and the The Women of the World event organised by Jude torch relay evoked a new, incredible level of interest Kelly at the Southbank had sessions on all aspects of amongst our school children. It demonstrated the sport for the first time. I met artists who learnt the power of being uniquely British—opening a gateway benefit of being physically active. Unfortunately, the for children to explore and be inquisitive about who one project that I was not able to be involved in was WE really are and where WE really come from”. very interesting—it was using my spinal X-rays to As I was leaving the presentation after the speeches create art. in 2005, a member of the Paris bid team stopped me Much of what I want to highlight could never be and said that we had done one thing that they had described as a creative industry, but it may be the start never expected from us—show emotion. of inspiring others. After the torch relay, many people Obviously there has been a lot of talk about venues. have approached me and said that this inspired them It was right to build temporary venues; they may have to join local groups, to contribute back to the community cost more in the first place but will save money in the and to look at culture in a different way. There are 1199 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1200

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] east end of London. He is rightly recognised around several groups of Games makers and London the world as one of its foremost social entrepreneurs, ambassadors but one, the Spirit of London 2012, and he can point to overwhelming evidence which helps local groups find volunteers for other projects. lends great credence to what he has said to us today. This is community spirit at its best and what the big In the time that is available, I want to concentrate society should really be. on only one lesson. That does not mean the others are In the past 18 months I have visited many schools, not important but colleagues have already addressed either in person or through the power of modern them. I want to look at that part of the Motion which technology on my computer. They embrace not only refers to lessons that can be learnt more broadly and sport but art. I have been sent pictures, collages, concentrate on only one. We can talk about a lasting models and boiled eggs dressed as athletes, Games legacy and occasionally get the feeling that the makers and performers; I have been sent essays using Government, the public or local government have the Games as an inspiration. That was not just before the responsibility for it. It is none of these. Trust the the Games, this is happening now. Who knows who people. They have the ideas and the aspirations, and in will go forward from these people to form an integral the east end of London they have the multicultural part of future creative industries? base on which to build and develop. I was also reminded by Kate Allenby of the quilting This is a good forum in which to say that it is a project, where thousands of local organisations joined mistake to believe that lasting legacy is solely or, together to send each and every athlete who came to indeed, overwhelmingly guaranteed by the spending London 2012 a memento of their time in London. I of public money. It is much more important than the had a beautiful cushion sent to me by residents of a spending of public money. The lesson I would like to care home. Who can forget the guerrilla knitters of draw from the Games as a foundation for lasting Saltburn depicting every Olympic and Paralympic sport legacy is that which we have learnt from my noble on the pier? The Games makers were stunning in friend Lord Coe and the then Mr Deighton. It is the themselves, but if you looked carefully you could see lesson of leadership. We rightly celebrate the athletes “knitteds”. Many knitted Games makers were proudly and para-athletes and we rightly celebrate those who being carried, and I have one on my desk. It was worked on the ground to make the Games an enormous started by Liz Gibson, who made the first one and and impressive spectacle and such a happy occasion. then made the pattern freely available to anyone who But there needed to be firm leadership and a broad-based wanted it. I met one young man working at Heathrow understanding of what constitutes leadership, in that Airport as a Games maker who knitted his own, it is not all in the public sector or the private sector. It complete with full accreditation. For those who could is a sensitive combination for the common good. That not knit their own, others helped out. I met many leadership is frequently not as available in our society young people who, because they had seen the knitteds, as many of us would like, so I want to thank the suddenly decided that they wanted to learn to knit so people who had the responsibility for organising and that they could make one of their own. These are not delivering the Games on time and on budget, neither the big projects we associate with the cultural Olympiad, of which is inevitably the consequence of activities in but they are really important. our nation. On a personal note, the Paralympic Games gave me the opportunity to fly through the air on a high wire. However, Government and Ministers have a role to “Terrified” is the only word I can use. I have been play in all this, but it is not the role of providing asked more questions about than about sport. For me exclusive leadership. The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, it will never happen again, but it will give inspiration is perhaps the most sterling example of the fact that to young people who think it can. you do not have to look to Government to lead renaissance and change. I would like to suggest that The Games were a magical moment to be celebrated the role Ministers should play is that of—if I may use and were so much more than sport. I agree with the a rather inelegant colloquialism—banging heads together. noble Lord, Lord Mawson, that this is the start, not It is to say to people, “Your mindset is wrong. Your the end. locality cannot move forward unless you address the mindset”. Those who are involved locally find it hard 12.22 pm to do that, so they need guidance from outside. Sometimes Lord Mawhinney: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ministers need to move in to resolve turf wars which Mawson, has done both this House and the Government hold up progress on the ground. Sometimes they need a great service by introducing this debate. If one looks to move in and say, “I understand your focus on the at the place of the east end of London in the history of detail, but actually the bigger picture is this, and this is our country over the past 50 years, it would be true to what we should be doing”. Sometimes Ministers need say that, until recent years, no one comes out of it with to say that the relationship between Government, any great credit. It has been one of the great unobserved local government and the private sector is simply not areas of our country. Happily, that is changing and good enough and needs to be changed. will continue to change, as the noble Lord, Lord What we have learnt from the Olympics is that Mawson, and my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater change creates challenges. I would say to Ministers made clear. and to my noble friend: in case you think there is The second reason I wanted to be here today is to nothing for you to do, take all of your colleagues pay a personal tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson. down to Bromley-by-Bow and let them see what has He is the epitome of what has caused the change in the emerged from virtually nothing. It is one of the most 1201 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1202 impressive displays of social entrepreneurship anywhere. tested business model for sports venues, which allows We are focusing on the European Union these days it to make profits while remaining focused on the and it is more impressive than anywhere in the Union. needs of local communities. This business model The question to be asked is this. What head-banging encourages the widest possible range of visitors, including needs to be done to enable Bromley-by-Bow to move both grass-roots and elite use. It is a very innovative even further ahead and to see that being replicated authority. When it won the bid to build the White across the whole of the Lower Lea Valley? Stratford Water Centre for the Olympics, it decided also to build station is sitting there. Perhaps my noble friend would an easier course for the general public. This has become like to encourage one or two of his colleagues to a huge commercial, sporting and social success, with ensure that the station is actually used, and used visitor numbers and income more than double the properly. I declare an interest because I was the Secretary original estimates. The authority’s programme for the of State with responsibility for the Channel Tunnel VeloPark will include a mix of first-timers, schools, and the building of Stratford station. major events, leagues, races and sessions for a variety We are talking about how the Olympic stadium of groups: the over-50s, disabled people and women-only might be used in the future. It might get tied in to activities, because women are greatly underrepresented football. It ought to have some tie-in to athletics, and in cycling activity. maybe a little head-banging needs to be contemplated I have highlighted the Lee Valley Regional Park by my ministerial colleagues, and the encouraging of Authority because it illustrates very well what can be more investment in the facilities. The private sector achieved when government sets out a broad strategy can provide the money but sometimes it needs a little and then leaves it to people who know what they are bit of help from Ministers to clear the ground to doing to get on with it. This principle should be enable that money to be spent effectively. applied to other legacy projects. My lesson for the legacy of the Games is that we However, there are real challenges. The work done ought to focus on and encourage real, sensitive, by the Arts Council in developing an arts and cultural community-led leadership. legacy is a good example. Some really excellent arts projects were delivered in the run-up to and during the 12.30 pm Olympics but, sadly, very little of this was designed to appeal to people living in disadvantaged communities, Baroness Doocey: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble who are seriously underrepresented in the arts. This is Lord, Lord Mawson, for introducing this debate. I largely because the Arts Council is relying on the usual begin by declaring that I was heavily involved in partners instead of working with people on the ground monitoring the delivery of the 2012 Games on behalf who understand the kinds of activities that appeal to of the London Assembly. Throughout that time, my local people. main concern was the Olympic legacy. The bid promised that, The problem is not achieving a legacy but achieving “the most enduring legacy of the Olympics will be the regeneration the right kind of legacy. The transformation of the of an entire community for the direct benefit of everyone who Olympic Park is well under way. But in the present lives there”. tough economic climate, some major challenges must We must do everything possible to ensure that that be addressed to ensure that local people get the range promise is kept. However, this regeneration will not of homes, jobs and business opportunities they were happen by itself. It requires proper planning and execution. promised. The provision of the right number and type It also requires some government funding. Without of affordable homes, for example, requires some very this, we will be at the mercy of private developers. difficult decisions by the Government and the Mayor of London. It is essential to maximise the number of The focus of the legacy plans is the Olympic Park, affordable homes and to invest in high-quality schools the lower Lea Valley and the surrounding communities, and health facilities for the residents, but these needs which are set to become an important area for business will have to be balanced against the availability of grants investment. The regeneration of this area provides an and the requirement to repay to the National Lottery opportunity for innovation and engagement with local the funds generated from Olympic Park land sales. people, but the Government must help rather than hinder this process. I say this because, whenever a big I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, idea or large-scale scheme is being launched, all tiers that we need international trains to stop at Stratford, of government have a tendency to reinvent the wheel and we also need a new Thames crossing in east by setting up a new organisation to deliver it. Time London. The Government must invest in local and again, we end up with cumbersome bureaucracy infrastructure to boost private sector investment in the and fail to use the expertise of people on the ground. area. Most importantly, we need government at all Ministers and the Mayor of London should not get levels to lay out a clear and cohesive vision, to stick to involved in the detail but should set out a clear vision that plan and to allow experienced people on the and then leave the implementation to experienced ground to deliver it without undue interference. This people who understand the needs of local communities will give the private sector the confidence to invest. It and businesses. will also invigorate the greatest resource in the area: A good example of that principle in practice is the the local people and communities whose entrepreneurial work of the Lee Valley Regional Park Authority, energy has already driven so much change in east London. which owns and operates three Olympic venues: the William Ewart Gladstone asserted the principle of White Water Centre, the VeloPark and the Hockey “trust in the people, qualified by prudence”. I suggest and Tennis Centre. The authority uses a tried and we do the same. 1203 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1204

12.36 pm There were several language projects but LOCOG seems to have regarded them as marginal. The Welcoming Baroness Coussins: My Lords, I thoroughly enjoyed the World programme helped more than 60 companies the Games and felt very proud indeed to be a Londoner. with translating signage and training staff, but its I would question only whether we took seriously enough funding from the LDA ceased in April 2010 and the commitment to deliver a multilingual Games, and LOCOG declined to pick it up. Similarly, the Routes consequently whether we have short-changed ourselves into Languages programme and the Capital L group on this aspect of the Olympic legacy. I declare an worked with schools and colleges on the importance interest as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group of languages and the opportunities offered by the on Modern Languages. I thank everybody responsible Games. However, again, their funding ran out and for the most brilliant staging of Shakespeare in other they found very little support from LOCOG. languages at the Globe as part of the Cultural Olympiad. My contention is that if, as Olympic hosts, we had The Get Set programme might tell a different story, made more connections between the official language and I should like to ask the Minister specifically services during the Games and language teaching in whether he can give me an update on the Written schools, we could have matched young people’s enthusiasm Answer that I got on 13 December 2011. I was told for the Games with an injection of new enthusiasm for that LOCOG’s education programme, Get Set, included learning foreign languages, and perhaps even seen an a small number of modern foreign language applications increase in the number of teenagers sticking with and that an annual evaluation was being conducted. I languages after the age of 14. should be interested to know—later in writing if the Minister does not have this with him today—what, if This is such an important legacy issue because the any, positive results were generated. lack of language skills in the UK is currently damaging our economy and competitiveness. The employability What I know of the language services during the and social mobility of our young people is seriously Games seems to have worked well—for example, the limited as they compete for jobs in a global labour fact that the first tier of drivers for the IOC and market. Employers are recruiting from overseas because Olympic family was allocated according to language neither school-leavers nor graduates from the UK skills, and personal observation reported to me have the language skills, and the cultural knowledge suggests that this was effective. On the other hand, that goes with them, to meet the needs of business. it was very difficult to find out what else was being Robust evidence shows that lack of language skills is a done and whether community resources were being barrier to export growth. tapped. I was told that the chief interpreter and the head of language services for the Games were too Of course, the irony is that London is the most busy to meet the all-party group, even though the multilingual city in the UK and Newham is the UK’s noble Lord, Lord Coe—chairman of LOCOG and most multilingual borough. Dozens of local schoolchildren surely busier than either of them—was kind enough to could have easily spotted the embarrassing mistake on come to one of our meetings. I am very grateful to him the sign at the entrance to the Olympic Park, which for that. said “Welcome to London” in various languages but the Arabic section was written back to front. This faux I hope that both the noble Lord, Lord Coe, and the pas in an otherwise hugely successful international Government will now ensure that the importance of event led to Britain’s inability to cope with foreign language skills forms a clear part of the official report languages being ridiculed not only in our own media on the London Games, as well as featuring in any but in press stories in the US, South Africa, China and vision or strategy for their legacy.I fear that an opportunity the Middle East. was missed to showcase London as a richly multilingual I first asked an Oral Question about the steps the venue, even though we know that this is a major factor Government were taking to prepare for a multilingual for global companies deciding where to locate their Olympics in December 2008. Of course, it was a headquarters. More than 200 languages are spoken by different Government then, although I do not believe schoolchildren in London, yet most of their languages that the present one would have taken a significantly are not formally taught, examined or accredited, despite different line. The Minister of the day told me that the being badly needed in the field of public service Government, interpreting in courts, hospitals and police stations. In 2008, the then Minister told me on the Floor of the “are working to ensure that the Games leave a lasting legacy of House that his department wanted, language development”. He also said that, “to ensure that the Olympic Games provide an opportunity to show young people in the area the advantage of developing “we will need to draw on the vast range of communities that can language skills. That is what we are seeking to achieve”.—[Official offer language skills to the wide variety of visitors whom we will Report, 16/12/08; col. 732.] receive”.—[Official Report, 16/12/08; col. 731.] Can the Minister tell me today to what extent the Unfortunately, this proactive attitude was not really Government judge this to have been achieved and how followed through. We even had to rely on the French it will be followed up in future? embassy to help to fund a translator for the announcements in French during the Games. Why To conclude on an optimistic note, I spoke to could that not have been part of the mainstream several volunteers in the Olympic Park who told me budget? It would even have been a great challenge for that they were now off to learn Portuguese so that local schools. they could volunteer again in Rio. 1205 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1206

12.43 pm and planning—or rather they learnt and then continued to remember that they had a common goal—which is Lord Addington: My Lords, I congratulate the noble why the bid was successful and why we were able to Lord, Lord Mawson, on bringing this debate forward. take it forward without the normal position in politics What attracted me to it was that broad lessons will be of simply opposing and backing, to make sure we had learnt from this, one of the primary lessons being that something coherent in the planning stage. That is what you can bring people from different, often self-defined, allowed us to win in Paris. groups together and make them work effectively. Unless those outside the core activities are prepared The first point at which I really had doubts about to buy in, and buy in to something that they do not the process of doing this, but knew that the challenge regard as their own, we will have lost something here. was there, was at a dinner I was asked to many years We gained something very important: the chance to ago, which first brought people from the arts world to say that it is not just somebody’s—ours or yours—but speak to people from the sports world, at the start of co-operation at various levels. Learning to buy in to the planning. A few parliamentarians were there as something that you do not have control of is probably well. As the discussion got going, after people had one of the signs of growing up. I hope that both the swapped pleasantries during the meal itself, I felt that I arts and sport have done some growing up and seen was looking at a sort of peace conference between the that the world is slightly bigger than just them. There Martians and the Venusians, where they were talking is always a temptation to say, “Mine” and not talk. together for the first time. The look of total blank astonishment when it was actually suggested that they might have matters in common was quite comical. 12.48 pm However, it was also ridiculous, because they do have Lord Birt: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord very similar attitudes. Mawson, for prompting this insightful and multifaceted At grass-roots level, what is the difference between debate. Every aspect of the 2012 Olympics and somebody trying to get a play together—finding the Paralympics was a triumph and a tremendous credit people for it, getting somebody to run the finances, to all who led those fine ventures from beginning to organising it and finding venues—and somebody trying end, not least in our House and not least the noble to run a sports team and get people to training and to Lord, Lord Hall, who is with us today. The bid itself turn up on time, and get coaches together and run the was hard won—but well won. The gigantic infrastructure finances? It is exactly the same dynamic going on. The and arena construction programme was a model of fact that they were brought together to create one successful implementation. Once the Games started, thing that worked well is one of the broad lessons that the outstanding achievements of our Olympians and can be taken on into the future: you do not have to just Paralympians were a testament to not only individual talk to your own people about your own subject. The talent, application and determination but, as we know, noble Lord, Lord Mawson, suggested this in terms of to skilful investment choices, to the professionalism of planning: certain people, such as central government the coaching and to the rigour of the performance and local planning, must learn to understand and management. trust each other. It is something that must happen. The opening and closing events were sublime; Danny The Games have shown us how to bring these two Boyle’s opening ceremony was his masterpiece, as the together. They have also probably shown us the limitations noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, eloquently of this at the moment. The Cultural Olympiad was expressed earlier. As an event, it was audacious and very important, because something other than just the deeply British. It captured our history and the transition Olympics had to bring people in. Effectively, I felt that from a picture-postcard, pastoral Britain to the very the Cultural Olympiad was a little like a Christmas crucible of the Industrial Revolution. It reminded the present: it was that very important, enticing bit around world of the sports of what we have invented and of the outside—the wrapping—that made it look good our writing tradition, from Shakespeare to James Bond and gave you the buzz and excitement beforehand. to Harry Potter. It conveyed Britain’s unsurpassed The fact that there was something going on was very contribution to modern popular music. important: the Olympics were happening and there The opening ceremony held some delicious surprises was something coming. That was so important to the and two of the best jokes ever, starring Rowan Atkinson general feel of the Games for such a long time. However, and, unforgettably, Her Majesty the Queen. The stage it was not the Olympics themselves. The hard core was management of the event, with a cast of thousands, the sport. If we can take that model, for instance, was awesome and effortlessly smooth. The design, when sport provides some wrapping for a cultural whether the amazing, inflating industrial chimneys or event, we will at least have achieved parity between the use of the lighting tablets, was spellbinding, producing, these two worlds. We must look at how we integrate as the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, said earlier, them to bring more of the same process. breathtaking imagery. All in all, as I said, it was a We have talked about the creativity of the opening triumph. and closing ceremonies for both Games, which was One part of the overall legacy was that these Olympics one of the aims of the Cultural Olympiad. However, defined all that is best in Britain at this moment in unless it goes beyond saying, “Wasn’t it great?”, which time; and they bound us all together, unashamedly we have all done and which I did when I saw them, you proud of our Britishness. This very British staging of have failed to work on the initial steps that have been the Olympics also had, for me, some unexpected taken here. We learnt to do it in the planning. The consequences. On holiday in Italy a few weeks after political parties had a common goal in the preparation the Games, I was struck by the sight of innumerable 1207 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1208

[LORD BIRT] and an outdoor classroom for many of the schools in young Italian men and woman wearing union jack the area. I hope that woven into the design will be the T-shirts. In Sri Lanka recently, I noted exactly the spaces, and even the messy areas, that wildlife needs—for same. In Paris in the autumn, wandering along the example, along the edges and on the riverbank—and Boulevard Saint-Germain, I spied in the window of an the sort of meadows that the London Wildlife Trust upscale shoe shop an array of vastly expensive velvet has developed so well. The trust’s membership slippers—not my kind of thing particularly—one pair demonstrates that just as many people who are interested of which had a beautifully stitched union jack as its in all these things live in that part of London as main motif. Surprised and curious—I used to be a anywhere else. In fact, urban wildlife can be more journalist—I went in and inquired of the manager thrilling than rural wildlife because it is often in much whether there was any demand for such ostentatiously greater proximity to us, so we can see it better—indeed, British wares among the citizens of Paris. He told me, going back to Lambeth the other night, I met a fox not and he insisted on this, that it was by far the hottest-selling a half a road-width away and it was quite exciting. item in his shop and that all the buyers were French. The green legacy is important, but I want to talk President de Gaulle, of whom I have just read an about one particular aspect of it—one particular excellent biography, will be turning in his grave. community that had to make a big sacrifice for the In Beijing just a few weeks ago, I happened to have Olympic park and one very special space that was lost. lunch with a group of young Chinese journalists who I shall say why the promises that were made when that volunteered, unprompted, how much they had enjoyed sacrifice happened need to be kept. The space that I the opening ceremony—I promise that I did not prompt am talking about is the Manor Garden allotments that them in any way. One young woman journalist giggled used to be beside the River Lea. The land was given and observed, “You British, you are gentlemen. And before the First World War by Major Arthur Villiers, you are funny”. I thought that that was not a bad who bequeathed it for use in perpetuity by East End epitaph. She paused, then declaimed roundly, “Mr Bean!”. families, whom he saw as being in great need of At which point, the whole table laughed uproariously, allotment space because their diet was so poor. In the all remembering Mr Bean’s hilariously disruptive, and Second World War, the allotments became a model for wholly unexpected, appearance as a London Symphony the grow-your-own Dig for Victory campaign. There Orchestra keyboardist during the opening ceremony. was some hope at the beginning of the development of We can surmise that every aspect of the Olympics and, the park that perhaps the allotments could be kept, above all, its opening, was a powerful statement about with their 100 year-old apple trees and fig trees, as a Britishness, not just for us but for the rest of the world, model of Englishness—because allotments have a lot and that this statement will bring the United Kingdom to do with what Britishness is. The community that many benefits in multiple spheres. ran the allotments, the Manor Gardening Society, was One lesson that I take away from it all is that our a very good model of community, being mixed in age, extraordinary success as a country in creating and background and ethnicity, but it was brought together funding national institutions such as the Arts Council, by a common interest in growing food. However, the our art schools or the BBC, which husband and nurture difficulties in keeping the allotments where they were our most creative and innovative talents, has a payback were considered too great and they were relocated well beyond the edification of our citizens. Another temporarily but with a crucial promise that, when the lesson is that, with both a challenge and a deadline on compulsory purchase order was granted, they would the one hand and a governance structure on the other be given a space in the legacy park that was equivalent that brings together and unites the political parties, we both in size and quality once the Games were over. can be creative, rigorous and disciplined, and achieve Now we are into that period of looking at the extraordinary things. legacy. The space that has been offered is split between What a contrast there was between the dizzy heights two different sites. Although the area is exactly equivalent of the Olympics and the Paralympics that we all in size to the former allotments, it does not have any of remember so well—the unity that we all experienced—and those margins around the edge of the river bank. In the immediate gloom of a prolonged economic crisis, theory, this is more provision than the society originally in some part of our own making, and of a decaying had, but that is only if one counts the actual allotment national infrastructure. What a contrast, too, with a space and not the surrounding wild land verging on reminder of our inability to develop a fit-for-purpose the plots. It is that combination of both allotment national air hub, one of our main economic lifelines to land and land for wildlife that can create symbiotic the rest of the world. The Olympics and the Paralympics biodiversity, meaning that pollination takes place, that showed that if we can find effective ways to combine people are concerned about the wildlife and that you and assemble our best talents, and if we can set aside can create a very living green lung. We need to ensure our poisonous and disputatious political culture, we that. I hope that the members of the corporation who truly can as a nation achieve absolutely anything that are here today will take this back and think about it. we set out to do. The Manor Gardening Society has struggled on through its relocation. It has been difficult. Some members 12.55 pm gave up because they could not travel as far as their Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I temporary plots. However, its waiting list has grown. want to mention the green legacy of the Games. The That brings me to another issue that needs to be big space of the legacy park in east London presents solved. The offer of replacement allotments now appears us with an opportunity to create a green lung for that to be only to individual plot holders, not to the society area. It could be a place where urban wildlife thrives as a whole. The society is the embodiment of a particular 1209 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1210 community interested in growing. It would be a shame in the West Midlands alone secured media valued at if as vibrant and historic a community as the Manor £11 million. That underlined the huge value of linking Gardening Society did not have its rightful place in the large-scale events to the arts and the importance of park. I have talked to Mr Dennis Hone about that, linking into similar nationwide events in the future, and he was kind enough to write back to me. He said: such as the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. By “The commitment was to individual plot holders at the time the way, the arts also need to work in close collaboration and the LLDC will continue to work with those plot holders who with agencies such as VisitBritain, building the importance wish to return”. of the arts and culture in tourism. My question is: why would the LLDC want to As has been said, Britain saw something that it micromanage that? Earlier in the same letter, he says: liked about itself during the summer and during the “The ODA has worked closely with the Society on the detailed festival. The world saw the strength of our arts and design of the legacy allotments which is something the LLDC has culture and why Britain is such a fantastic place to continued”. visit. However, as we all know, the artists and leaders On the one hand, the LLDC agrees that the society who made it possible, such as Stephen Daldry, Danny has a role to play and has extended the community Boyle, and many others came originally from the space available but, on the other, it wants to deal only subsidised sector. Indeed, the festival could not have with individual plot holders. That may seem a detail happened without the commitment of the publicly but given the effort across London, from bodies such funded organisations—museums, theatres, galleries, as the London Food Board under the terrific chairmanship opera houses, concert halls, and so on. Their financial of Rosie Boycott, that has gone into spaces where strength over a long period gave them the security to Londoners can grow food, and considering the effort create the ambitious commissions that we saw in the that the Department for Education is putting into the festival. Stable investment in the arts must be sustained Food for Life initiative so that schoolchildren understand if we are to maintain that legacy. With every £1 of about growing food, that detail must be got right for public subsidy for the arts generating £4 of earned the legacy of the park. If we are interested in children income, it also makes financial sense to do so. having an all-round healthy lifestyle and in tackling To my mind, the festival underlined the strength issues such as obesity, this detail is extremely important. and economic value of our cultural industries and the importance of nurturing creative talents in future 1.02 pm generations. I am still really impressed by the way that the Tate, working with CBBC and the animators Lord Hall of Birkenhead: My Lords, I add my Aardman—the people who produced Wallace and congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on Gromit—offered 34,000 children the chance to learn securing this fascinating debate. I also declare interests, how to animate and create a film, “The Itch of the as I leave the Royal Opera House and head towards Golden Nit”. The film has already won a children’s the BBC, as a board member of LOCOG and chair of BAFTA and a place in the Guinness Book of Records the Cultural Olympiad board. I should point out that for the largest creative team ever. I guess that we will the Cultural Olympiad board has been asked to continue, have to wait 20 years to judge its true success: to find to guide and draw action from an assessment being out how many lives we changed and how many new carried out by Liverpool University. This is due by animators and filmmakers the project created. Easter, and we will then take recommendations to the I know that the House has recently debated the Government. However, I want to share what I think EBacc, but I briefly add my view. The arts must are some of the lessons from last year. remain at the heart of the national curriculum to First, as has already been mentioned, one of the allow all children, regardless of their background, the most striking aspects of the London 2012 festival was chance to develop their creative talents and contribute the level of participation. At every event, from the in future to our world-leading arts and creative industries. spectacular Fire Garden at Stonehenge to the UK’s One day, we will look to a new generation to create an biggest celebration of dance, the Big Dance to Unlimited, event of a magnitude to rival London 2012. Let us I saw how people of all ages and backgrounds seized give them the skills to do so. the chance to be part of something creative, ambitious The Cultural Olympiad also gave us a chance to and big. We put events outside and in public places, show the value of a creative education in helping and the audiences, large and diverse, found them. We young people to find jobs. Inspired by the work that wanted free events, and it paid off: 19.8 million people we have been doing at the Royal Opera House, where took part; 80% came for free. 1% of employees are apprentices, the festival offered Here is the rub: overall, 38% of those taking part unemployed young people in the host boroughs were under the age of 24. This to my mind shows the apprenticeships in the arts. Forty per cent of the immense appetite for culture among the young. One of participants had secured a job by the time the scheme the legacies must be to secure future opportunities for ended. That is why the Arts Council decided to fund a participation in culture for both young people and comparable, national creative employment programme. those who commonly feel excluded from the arts. That alone could be an enormous legacy of the Cultural The festival also used the fact of the Games to Olympiad, and one that demonstrates how much we highlight how good we are at arts and culture. About achieve by investing in the creative talents of children 40,000 journalists were in the UK to cover the Games, and young people. which meant that we could secure publicity for arts The festival also highlighted something key about and cultural organisations both here and across the the role of the BBC and the media more broadly. world. For example, the Cultural Olympiad programme From the beginning, it was vital that the BBC, as a 1211 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1212

[LORD HALL OF BIRKENHEAD] for the Olympics and Paralympics. Many of us have public broadcaster, was at the heart of the Cultural spoken about those ceremonies today but their impact Olympiad. It delivered collaborations and coverage of on us all, nationally and internationally, has really exceptional scale and quality. It built, for example, on been quite phenomenal. They will be memories that the World Shakespeare Festival, which was an we have for all time. extraordinary achievement, to create its largest ever As far as the festival is concerned, it had nearly education project. In the Radio 1 Big Weekend, it gave 20 million visitors and there were more than 25,000 young people from Hackney and the East End the artists from all competing nations—what an achievement. chance to work with their musical heroes and learn One of the most inspiring occasions, which my noble production and backstage skills. By the way, as I friend Lady Bonham-Carter mentioned, was in being found out, it was a fantastic, exhilarating weekend. part of the 3 million taking part in Martin Creed’s The Cultural Olympiad showed how the BBC, working work when we all stood there at 8.12 am on the with cultural organisations, world-class artists and opening day, ringing whatever bell we could find to public and private funders can teach creative skills and hand. That was participation writ large. We all look transform the life chances of young people. It also forward to the evaluation, which the noble Lord, Lord underlined how important the media—in particular Hall, mentioned of the festival and the Cultural Olympiad the BBC—are in fuelling public appetite for the arts. but there can be no doubt that the evaluation’s conclusions One amazing example of that from last summer will be extremely positive. was The Space. This digital platform, funded jointly Ruth Mackenzie was quoted as saying after the by the Arts Council and the BBC, gives people wherever festival: they are a chance to experience the arts directly online. “All of our partners want to know what happens next in You could enjoy a private view of the Goldsmith economic and cultural terms”. College degree show or hear, if you wanted to, the There are promising signs in terms of local legacy. The Stockhausen helicopter string quartet as it played Arts Council said that from 2012 to 2015 it plans to above Birmingham. There were many other rich, amazing invest more than £49 million into national portfolio events. It is clear to me that The Space and other organisations in east London; I note the caveats of my digital innovations like it have immense potential for noble friend Lady Doocey there. The London Legacy promoting the arts and giving people direct access to Development Corporation has agreed an arts and artists, performances and art. It is a profoundly important cultural strategy, due to be launched this year, which development, which comes out of the cultural festival. uses Olympic and Paralympic momentum to motivate, I have always believed strongly that world-class art raise aspirations and promote cultural activity. There and culture should be available to everyone. Out of the is also the new Legacy List, of which the noble Lord, many excellent things that the Cultural Olympiad did, Lord Mawson, is a trustee. It is a charity, fulfilling that goal is by far the team’s proudest “dedicated to making creative connections between people and achievement. I shall pick up on something that the the future Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park”. noble Lord, Lord Addington, said by remembering that, as we proved in that summer, if we bring everyone During the festival, of course, an incredible number of together—whether it is through sports, arts, tourism diverse and potentially competing interests were brought or whatever—we can achieve great things. together to create a phenomenal cultural menu for audiences around the country. It is this legacy of creating partnerships which we need to maintain in 1.10 pm the future, particularly in east London. Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I first declare my The Barbican Centre was able to provide an interests as a council member of University College unparalleled variety of events during the London London and a trustee of the Barbican Centre Trust. I 2012 festival. These were not just for the City of congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, along London. The organisation has worked for a long time with other noble Lords, on not only initiating this in east London and the Olympic events took the City debate but constructing one that can be so wide-ranging beyond its boundaries to work with communities in in its subject matter. I also congratulate the noble Hackney, Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green Lord on his passion for regeneration in east London. and beyond. In recognition of that commitment the My second motive is to say how delightful it is to Barbican has been asked to mount, with the east follow the noble Lord, Lord Hall, who gave us such an London artistic partnership Create, the weekend to interesting description of his work as chairman of the celebrate the public reopening of the Olympic park in Cultural Olympiad board. I congratulate him and July. That work continues as part of the Olympic Ruth Mackenzie on all the work they did in constructing legacy. The Barbican Centre and the Guildhall School the London 2012 festival, which was so well captured are now working closely with the east London boroughs in the book of photographs that many of us have to discuss the formation of a partnership which could received thanks to the noble Lord. I think the last time drive forward an integrated, comprehensive programme that I saw the noble Lord, Lord Hall, was at the of creative learning. aquatics centre when he was giving out medals and I There are many other positive developments on a was giving out flowers—there is a job for everyone in national level, especially in the skills area. My noble this world. I wanted to congratulate also Danny Boyle. friend Lady Bonham-Carter mentioned those. The I have a whole list of other really fantastic people, Big Lottery Fund is establishing a trust to build on the such as Stephen Daldry and Mark Tildesley, who were social and community aspects of the Games legacy. all involved in the various opening and closing ceremonies There is the extension of the creative employment 1213 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1214 programme that the noble Lord, Lord Hall, did so London’s five legacy commitments included increasing much to create at the Royal Opera House. There is the opportunities in sports and jobs, to showcase the creative people and places fund and the creative diverse communities and transform the East End. In apprentices programme. We have also had funding the end, the UK spent £9.3 billion of public funds on announced in the Autumn Statement for creative skills the 2012 Olympics. A majority of the public quite through Skillset. rightly believe that this has been a worthwhile cause. Local and national aspects are important but there Had the Government not intervened, the Games would is a global dimension here, too, as the mayor’s cultural certainly not have happened. strategy recognises. The UK has the largest cultural Of that £9.3 billion, £1.7 billion has been used for economy in Europe and the creative and cultural industries regeneration and infrastructure, opening up London represent one of our economy’s greatest success stories. to the world. Five villages—4,000 homes—will be We must take advantage of the opportunities provided built in the vicinity of the Olympic park, relieving by cultural tourism. As the noble Lord, Lord King, pressures on local housing and providing more jobs in mentioned the arts, museums and galleries are a vital the area. We need to allay fears that local residents part of the UK’s offer to tourists. Then there are the may be forced out of east London, as happened to overseas trade opportunities. As the DCMS said in its many living on the edges of the River Thames and in recent evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Select Canary Wharf during the Olympics development. Here, Committee: dreams of access to good-quality and plentiful low-cost “The success of the 2012 London Olympic and Paralympic housing and local jobs, promoted at the time by the Games has focused the world’s attention on the UK’s creativity. noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, remain unfulfilled for UK Trade & Investment … plan to build on this by helping UK companies, including those involved in the delivery of the London most local graduates. Games”. In Tower Hamlets we welcomed the Olympics with I welcome all this but it needs to be put together an open heart. There has been a dramatic improvement effectively. There needs to be co-operation between to the infrastructure of London and the East End. I VisitBritain, the Arts Council and the British Council welcome the Games’ legacy and its reflection of Danny to pull that together. Boyle’s extremely energising and imaginative vision. What are the additional challenges? There is the Its inclusivity embraced our health service and innovations. continuing question of access to finance. The Creative It saluted our music, and his tribute to our creativity Industries Council recently produced a report by Ian was inspiring and gracious. Olympic flames beamed Livingstone. This excellent report highlights the scale our joy and expectations across our country and the of the challenge. How are the Government going to world. Yet the prospect for the citizens of the five take those recommendations forward? We also have boroughs was not just that we were hosting greatest the EBacc, which my noble friend mentioned extensively. show on earth, as it was regarded by some, but also I entirely agree; we had a debate on that subject only that its legacy would be more than just the park, a few last week and the feeling within this House was quite thousand homes, and some jobs in the service and unanimous. Then we have the issue of the resourcing construction sectors. of the DCMS and the budget of the Arts Council. The Our expectation was that the legacy, addressing DCMS co-ordinated the successful bid for the severe inequalities in one of the richest cities in the 2012 Olympics and oversaw the Olympic Delivery world, would be transformational for jobs, and increase Authority and the Paralympics, but its funding has skills and opportunities, so much so that there would been cut. be a reverse in the inequalities that have separated east Meanwhile, businesses must be able to capitalise on London from the rest of the city for perhaps a century. their involvement in the games. Suppliers must be Tower Hamlets has one of the highest rates of youth allowed to promote their work for the Olympics or and graduate unemployment in London. Bethnal Green similar events but, at the moment, the terms and and Bow has the highest level of child poverty in the conditions do not allow the businesses in those creative UK, with more than 50% living in poverty. From industries to publicise that. All those suppliers were the bottom of my heart I welcome the promise of the promised a long time ago that that would be settled. legacy to boost long-term employment and improve Finally, there is, I hope, the great prospect of another skills in our boroughs. This should not be just for jobs London 2012 festival if the Cultural Olympiad board in the hospitality and security sectors but also for the recommends that to the Secretary of State, which I broader development of jobs in the IT industry. Most very much hope it will. importantly, the management structures of the institution delivering that legacy should visibly reflect these boroughs’ 1.18 pm populations. Baroness Uddin: My Lords, I, too, salute the noble The populations of the five boroughs are blessed Lord, Lord Mawson, and commend his consistent with countless entrepreneurial men and women, whose leadership and advocacy for all the communities in the talents make east London a vibrant community, East End of London. I also congratulate the noble contributing silently to the creation of this new city in Lord, Lord Hall, on the Cultural Olympiad. the East End about which we are proudly talking. The The London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games East End is often reported as having some rough were won with the promise to promote inclusion, with edges, with immigrants having settled in waves among a vision to deliver new opportunities for some of the the white working-class locals who have been living poorest and most socially excluded neighbourhoods there for generations, but Bangladeshi communities in in the capital, transforming the heart of east London. Shadwell and Whitechapel, the African and Caribbean 1215 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1216

[BARONESS UDDIN] industries in delivering a lasting Olympic legacy should communities in Hackney, and the Turkish, Kurdish be to inspire a generation of children, as well as young and orthodox Jewish communities in Dalston have all people, to take part in the arts. contributed to creating strong identities, championed Every child should be able to take part in the same by the bid itself. The curry capital and Banglatown are artistic activities that we enjoy as adults, but truly to as much loved as the 24-hour bagel shop, with the share in that same experience and reap the benefits Shoreditch yuppies bringing with them, of late, new they need not only their own books but plays, films outdoor cafes, night clubs and little boutiques, now and music, created for them by artists who know how dotted around Spitalfields market, enlivening the area to fire up their imaginations. This is a vital part of in the spirit of Danny Boyle’s depiction. their growing up and a preparation for their adult The shooting in August 2011 of a young black man lives. The arts and creative industries must do more for by police in north London triggered the worst rioting children than they do for adults. Children should not across the capital for 30 years. Chaos raged between just be expected to sit and watch. The creative industries rioters and police in Hackney. Many people looted have to put on plays for them but also give them shops shamelessly. Experts have reminded us that the opportunities to put on their own plays. They should riots are a reminder of the deep-seated prejudice and not just publish books for them but also encourage division in many parts of our cities, and I accept that them to write their own stories and poems through the Games could not have an impact on many of those competitions and campaigns, such as the ones set up who over decades have felt most marginalised; nor will by Booktrust. a few cultural events and projects engage those who The creative arts have to bring children into museums have suffered the long-standing effects of racism, and and art galleries, and let them paint, draw and have are at the bottom of the pile in the education system— hands-on participation. They should be brought into unemployed, disengaged and alienated. The disfranchised concert halls, where they can make music and dance. from Bethnal Green, Dalston and Stratford are witnessing Children need twice as much to stimulate their fresh, the developments and seeing outsiders moving into impressionable minds and to create that wonderful new houses, claiming jobs that they are not qualified feeling of experiencing things for the first time. But to take. more often than not that is not the case. The legacy board has a tough job in aligning some In a debate last year, I spoke about the freedom of of its strategies to the needs of those in the community information request made by the charity Action for who have been born and live within the reach of the Children’s Arts. I am a patron of this charity and park, and who may feel that they have no place or declare an interest. It showed that most of the UK’s sense of ownership in their institutions. I hope that in major arts organisations spend far less on producing building the legacy, the board will ensure the proper work aimed specifically at children—in most cases and serious involvement of a wide range of individuals only around 1% of their total budget—than they do and organisations, so that the final outcome reflects on work for adults. With a heavy heart I say that the culture, aspirations and experiences of those who today, of the £337 million in grants that Arts Council understand, and live in, the broad cultural diversity of England will give next year to the 688 organisations our communities. These include Mary Swenham, a that it supports, just over 2% will go to organisations local businesswoman, Shamim Azad, a local poet, and producing work specifically for children. Fifty-one Joleeda Ali, a film maker. These are women who have organisations will receive grants ranging from £1 million contributed to making the communities what they are. to £25 million but only one of them, London’s fantastic What is the Minister’s assessment of such women and Unicorn Theatre, produces work exclusively for children. of their contribution to making a real legacy for the What kind of legacy will this type of policy produce? community? The noble Lord, Lord Mawson, asked for consistent Children need more, yet we give them less. They leadership. I agree. A narrative that speaks the language depend more than any other population group on of our young men and women, and a vision that services in their local community, services provided by translates and reflects their experience and culture, are charities as well as local authorities. That includes a must for a successful legacy.The Games have conquered after-school clubs, nurseries, parks which offer sporting the imagination of our communities and inspired the activities, such as those provided by the Mappin Group’s whole nation. The legacy must do so too. parks and community project, music clubs, such as the World Heart Beat Music Academy, and of course libraries, many of which are being threatened by cuts. 1.26 pm “Please sir, I want some more”, but Oliver’s plea Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I too congratulate was turned down, and that is when the real problems the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, on securing this important started. In the current economic climate, asking for debate and his comprehensive opening speech. more is particularly difficult. Where is it to come Any consideration of an Olympic legacy that does from? Children’s arts organisations are often underfunded not give a high priority to children will be seriously and understaffed. They lack the time and expertise to flawed. Childhood lasts a lifetime and what we deliver go in search of funds from the private sector. They are for them today at the early stages will influence their wholly dependent on public funding and, like Oliver, lives for ever. In the Government’s legacy plan, one of are apt to find themselves at the mercy of the beadle. its five aims is to inspire a generation of young people Last year, the Action for Children’s Arts conference to take part in local volunteering and in cultural and called for arts organisations and the arts funding physical activities. The role of the arts and creative system to put children first. I am making that plea 1217 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1218 once again. For if we really want to secure a lasting March 2013, there will be a full evaluation of the legacy from the Olympics, we have no choice but to London festival—other noble Lords have mentioned put children first. Action for Children’s Arts has two this—and we await that publication with enormous proposals to make: first, to create an Olympic legacy interest. working group, made up of leaders from the arts and East London has been debated here very fully today, creative industries, with a brief to identify ways of and it remains a strategic priority for the Arts Council. integrating work for children into the output of their The noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Mawson, and organisations; and secondly, that arts funding bodies many other noble Lords reminded us that the be asked to evaluate the extent to which their existing transformation would not have happened without the policies for children encourage artists and arts Olympiad. It is all the more welcome as east London organisations to create original works for this age was a deprived area that was desperately in need of group. So I ask my noble friend: will the Government regeneration. The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, shared support these proposals and, if so, what practical with us her unique engagement and regeneration steps will they take to facilitate them? experiences and demanded the right kind of legacy. All children need beauty around them, but those How we agree with her. We also welcome the from disadvantaged backgrounds, whose lives revolve apprenticeships and paid internships in the arts sector, around gang and drug culture, do not have any exposure which were mentioned by many noble Lords. They are to creativity, so they need it more than ever. They need invaluable at a time of such high unemployment. to be able to channel their energy creatively, artistically Innovations in music and dance schemes offer great and positively to feel that they belong and have a part opportunities. Many areas are committed to this initiative, to play in their community and their society, giving and foremost among them are the Royal Opera House them the opportunity to create a legacy that they can and the London Symphony Orchestra. The noble pass on to their own children. Surely this is what we all Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, spoke about educational want for all children, so let us make sure it happens opportunities, and she was quite right. With such and that we do not miss this opportunity that the internationally renowned contributors, many others successful London Olympics have given our great will surely follow. My noble friend Lady Andrews and country. A nation is judged by the way it provides for the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, spoke its children, the future. We must not let them down, so inspiringly about the opening ceremony, as did other let us give children more. noble Lords. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hall, who is to be congratulated on his new appointment, 1.32 pm will ensure that it is screened regularly, just to keep in Baroness Billingham: My Lords, the noble Lord, our minds what a wonderful moment it was when we Lord Mawson, is to be thanked for and congratulated looked in disbelief at those great nurses dancing around on bringing this topic to the House for debate today. and all the other things that we witnessed and identified When we look back at last summer, we remember with as we retaught ourselves a history lesson that all Britain transformed from passive to active in both of us should remember. This debate has been unique sport and culture. It became ever more evident that the in the all-star line-up who have spoken today. They pledge made when London won the bid was a promise have shown us what is being done and what can be that the nation demanded that we keep. It subsequently done. It is a message that must be widely spread. became more evident that it could be achieved only if So why I am still left with a sinking heart? Why key players worked in collaboration with each other. does the political cynic in me have misgivings about That is why this debate is so crucial. Are we satisfied the legacy? Why, even after today’s uplifting debate, do that the collaboration is working? Are we confident I feel a bit like Ruth amid the alien corn? Quite simply, that the legacy will be delivered? it is because the Government’s ill considered actions I began by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, with regard to local authority funding and the inexplicable for his initiative. Now I thank him for the way he actions of Michael Gove put all these things in doubt. began this debate. His personal statement laid down a As to the first, local authority funding has been slashed. blueprint for all other contributors to follow. He was Clearly, at a time of economic stress that would not be positive, critical and creative. His experience and expertise unlikely, but what is clear is that the funding reductions were there for all to see. We are incredibly fortunate to have been cynically targeted at Labour councils, often have others here with us today who have shared their in areas of high deprivation, to such an extent that knowledge, world-class expertise and vision of the libraries, theatres and museums are under threat. Much cultural future with us. A galaxy of stars has brought has been said about the fine city of Newcastle. We us a shimmering debate. As a footnote, I must also await with trepidation the outcome of those negotiations. acknowledge the contribution made by outside These are people centres. We have talked about them contributors; the briefings came thick and fast. They this morning, and it is vital that people have access to were all helpful and significant, and we are most cultural activities all over Britain. All the good work grateful. I learnt an enormous amount from them. being done, as we have heard today, will be undermined The role of the Arts Council is important in the by unfair funding, and the legacy should be felt by realisation of the legacy and for Britain’s international everyone in Britain, not just by those in east London. reputation. It pledged to invest in the arts and cultural As for Michael Gove, much has been said already in experiences that will enrich people’s lives. Between this Chamber and in the press. His proposals, yet to be 2011 and 2015, £1.4 billion of public money from the finally published, could totally dismantle grass-roots Government will be invested in the project, and a sport and culture in our state schools. I remind noble further £1 billion has been pledged by the lottery. In Lords that these schools educate 94% of our young 1219 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1220

[BARONESS BILLINGHAM] London 2012 made people proud to be British and people, but Michael Gove’s proposals threaten to tear to be part of their local community. We want to ensure the heart out of primary and secondary schools. His that people continue to have opportunities to come curriculum proposals spell doomsday for our next together. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, generation of young people, and for the hopes that the said: collective activity, involving the public, private legacy so clearly brought us. The noble Baroness, and voluntary sectors, and leadership and decision-making Lady Benjamin, reminded us in a powerful speech that at the local level create the conditions for people to live we must put children first. Children must be introduced in vibrant and successful communities. to sport and the arts at the earliest opportunity. We My noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater raised must ask why Michael Gove is ignoring that fact. No London regeneration in terms of ExCeL and the amount of outside enrichment can compensate for contribution to the economy. I am particularly mindful state schools devoid of ring-fenced funding and the of the comments raised by my noble friend Lady provision of properly trained teachers. Michael Gove Doocey on bureaucracy. However, the noble Lord, chooses to ignore all this. Lord Mawson, spoke most powerfully about what has Though I regret those negative observations, I am happened and will happen in east London. The convinced that the legacy is literally a once-in-a-lifetime redevelopment of the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park opportunity; others have said that. All of us must will offer iconic visitor attractions alongside new homes, demand a review of national policies that would deny schools, businesses and open spaces. I say to my noble us the rightful outcome. By working together, we can friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer that green indeed succeed. lungs are vital; I speak as a very keen gardener. Finally, thanks are due to all participants. All have I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, that of shown their commitment. It has indeed been an course business enterprise is important. It is important outstanding debate. that business men and women play their absolutely essential part in economic recovery and regeneration. 1.41 pm The Government are committed to improving sport Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, it is a privilege participation figures, which are encouraging. Sport to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and particularly plays a key role in bringing communities together and to acknowledge his pioneering work in east London. there are many initiatives. Sport England’s Places People He was one of the earliest proponents of bringing the Play programme has already provided local sports Olympic Games and Paralympic Games to east London. clubs with grants to improve and upgrade facilities. I How grateful we all are. say to my noble friend Lady Benjamin that children are of course absolutely key, and sport of is one of the We are also fortunate to have in their places today great joys of being a child. Nearly 60,000 people have in your Lordships’ House Members who have made signed up to volunteer in their communities to help outstanding contributions to the Games and their fellow local residents to get involved in sport. The legacy.I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, Government and the Mayor of London’s office have for her continued inspirational work on sport, disability set up the Paralympic Legacy Advisory Group to and the planning and legacy of the Games, the noble ensure that the Paralympic legacy is strong. Through Lord, Lord Hall of Birkenhead, for his leadership on Sport England, £1 billion will be invested over the next the Cultural Olympiad, and my noble friend Lady five years in the youth and community sports strategy Doocey for her work in ensuring a legacy for London. to encourage all to take up sport. It would also be most remiss of me not to acknowledge the supreme efforts of my noble friends Lord Coe and In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, Lord Deighton in masterminding the Games, which the Government will shortly be announcing plans made their country so proud. which acknowledge the important role that sport plays This debate allows us to maintain attention on in our schools. Physical education will remain a securing the most enduring legacy from the Olympic compulsory part of the curriculum at all four key Games and Paralympic Games. The legacy is wide stages of education. ranging. Indeed, the International Olympic Committee On volunteering, I shall never forget the spirit and president has already said that London provided a humour of the volunteers last summer. The Games legacy blueprint for future Games hosts. The Government have shown what a huge impact volunteering can have are committed to its delivery. and how personally rewarding it can be. Volunteering On communities, the Games provided a focus for is inspiring, contemporary and exciting, and a key people across the United Kingdom to come together, part of community life. The noble Baroness, Lady reinforcing so much that we all share. The torch relay Grey-Thompson, in her inimitable way, referred to was the first indication that people, in every part of knitting. the British Isles, were taking the Olympic spirit to It is important that those who are new to volunteering their hearts. That was raised very movingly by the or inspired by the Games are given similar encouragement noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. Alongside the and opportunity. Since the Games, Team London staff, the organising committee and its partner ambassadors have continued to provide a warm welcome organisations, legions of volunteers and our superb to visitors during major cultural and sporting events. Armed Forces ensured that the Games ran like clockwork. The charity Join In is aiming to build on its achievements From July to September, up and down the country, in 2012 with a new programme for 2013. The decision communities came together to cheer on their sporting by the Big Lottery Fund to use its share of funds heroes. generated by the sale of the Olympic village to set up a 1221 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[24 JANUARY 2013] Olympic Games 2012: Legacy 1222

UK-wide Spirit of 2012 Trust is very welcome. It is no cultural success of the Games offered a very specific surprise that the Commonwealth Games 2014 in Glasgow opportunity to promote the UK’s excellence across the received more than 10,000 volunteer applications within creative industries internationally and at home. The the first hours of advertising its own plans. coverage of the Games delivered a worldwide advertising Married to a sculptor on the council of the Society campaign for the creative industries of the UK. of Portrait Sculptors, I need no rehearsing as to the As was highlighted by many noble Lords—although importance of the arts to our culture and our nation. I particularly want to mention what was said by the The UK delivered the largest nationwide cultural festival noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, my noble friends Lady ever staged and the most ambitious of any Olympic Bonham-Carter and Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Games. The noble Lord, Lord Hall of Birkenhead, Lord, Lord Birt—900 million people watched the with the Cultural Olympiad board and its director opening ceremony. They witnessed our excellence in Ruth Mackenzie and her team, led this celebration of theatre, music, screen, art, heritage and storytelling. I the UK as a centre for cultural innovation and creativity. shall never forget Thomas Heatherwick’s spectacular The many public and private sponsors and supporters Olympic cauldron, which was magnificent. How proud who worked together to ensure its success deserve our we were to see its assembly and its fulfilment during considerable thanks. As the noble Lord, Lord Hall, the ceremony. observed, nearly 20 million people attended events across the country, from Big Dance to Bandstand The challenge now is to translate that into more Marathon and bell-ringing. international business and growth for the UK. We aim to generate £13 billion of benefit to the UK over the The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, drew attention next four years from additional sales and inward to heritage. The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, drew investment, and from attracting 4.6 million extra attention to languages and skills and, indeed, visitors. The GREAT campaign promotes Britain and Shakespeare—but I fear I will have to write to her British business as part of Creativity is GREAT in key about her earlier Parliamentary Question. Of course, markets around the world. UKTI will continue to foreign languages are one of the core academic subjects champion our industries and help them to secure of the English baccalaureate. global opportunities. Public awareness of the festival was high, particularly among younger age groups and minority ethnic groups. We had some intriguing suggestions on lessons The “Unlimited”series of commissions—29 commissions learnt from noble Lords, including the noble Lord, of work by deaf and disabled artists—ensured that the Lord Birt. The suggestion made by the noble Lord, shift in the UK’s perceptions of disability was seen in Lord Mawhinney, of banging heads together is particularly culture as well as in sport. As with the delivery of the fine—perhaps, I should say, by Ministers. However, Cultural Olympiad, the cultural legacy of the Games the success of the Games was not by chance. It was is one that the Government want the sector to lead, due to stable and consistent leadership, meticulous with support from government. They have asked the planning, cross-party support, as the noble Baroness, Cultural Olympiad board to look at further options to Lady Billingham, so rightly advised us, and the public maximise the legacy of the Cultural Olympiad. As the and private sectors working together. The thoughtful noble Lord, Lord Hall, said, these proposals will be speech made by my noble friend Lord Addington received in March. dealt with that very well and powerfully. What we have learnt from the Games will be embedded as we take As regards the importance of arts and culture within the legacy forward. education, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hall, and my noble friends Lady Bonham-Carter and We should not lose sight of the fact that London Lord Clement-Jones, the English baccalaureate is a 2012 was, from the outset of the bid, the first legacy core set of academic subjects that gives students the Games. We should be proud of what has already been broadest possible opportunities to progress. It is designed achieved. We are at the beginning of the legacy journey. to leave around 20% to 30% of time in the curriculum We must focus on delivering an enduring legacy for pupils to take other subjects. The importance of nationwide. The Games will be remembered as a summer creative subjects such as art, drama and music is fully of excellence for Great Britain. They should also be recognised as part of a broad curriculum. The Department remembered for helping to shape and foster our future for Education is currently considering how to ensure communities and culture for the national good. That that high-quality qualifications are available in these means inspiring a generation to contribute to their subjects. I know that my noble friend Lady Bonham- communities in innovative ways. My noble friend Lady Carter mentioned the word “imminent” but I am told Benjamin rightly highlighted the importance of children. that the word I can say is “soon”. Clearly, they are the future of our country and it is our The noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, referred to responsibility to ensure that what happened last summer arts funding. Protecting all arts funding while cutting is part of their legacy and that they gain considerable public spending in other areas is simply not an option. benefit from it. None the less, the Government are committed to It also means building on the United Kingdom’s supporting art and culture. Overall, £2.9 billion will go identity as a centre for cultural innovation and the to the arts over the life of this Parliament; £1.9 billion new audiences engaged by the Games. It means capturing will be in direct government funding and more than the success of creative companies in delivering the £1 billion in lottery funding. Games and translating this into new business at Our country has the largest creative industry sector home and abroad. A great deal of work will be going in the world on a per capita basis. The sector exports on in Brazil but it is encouraging that British almost £9 billion-worth of services. The artistic and companies to date have won 60 contracts for the Sochi 1223 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1224

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] of the noble Lord, Lord Birt. My daughter tells me Winter Olympic Games and already £7 million-worth that people all over Cuba are now wearing union jack of deals in Rio. We must now build on these successes shirts. I also welcome the comments of the noble and I am sure that there will be many more opportunities. Baroness, Lady Miller. I agree that we need to encourage We have made an excellent start. I hope that we will wildlife in the park and I will look into the allotments ensure that the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, will issue. not have her heart sinking. I believe that many people We welcome the comments of the noble Lord, Lord across the piece are working extremely hard and effectively Hall. East London is a creative hub of international to ensure that the legacy is as strong as our nation significance and I know that he understands that. I deserves. As many of your Lordships have said today, also welcome the challenge that the noble Baroness, it means continuing to work in partnerships in all Lady Billingham, set for the noble Lord, Lord Hall, to sectors—public and private—and within communities. ensure that the BBC keeps reminding us of this important Those are the places where our goals can be achieved. moment in time. We have learnt that the world thinks more positively I thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of us as a nation after the Games. The noble Lord, of Kimble, for his response to the debate and I look Lord Birt, took us through some interesting country forward to working with him as we move forward in and territory as to where the union flag is now placed, east London. I thank him for meeting me before the but I think that what he said has very much been debate and for taking such a keen interest in the issues reflected across the globe; namely, that we are seen as we face in east London. a warmer country, a friendlier country, a country that The opportunities to extend and deepen the legacy came together and a country that is at ease with itself. in east London and to stimulate further investment I also suspect—one can be quite moved about this—that are considerable. The opportunity to create thriving we feel rather differently about ourselves because of and sustainable communities is very real but this will the Games, which is one of the most powerful legacies not happen by magic. If the present procurement that I have picked up. The Games have taught us once systems are left unchallenged, they are quite capable again that we can, as has been said, deliver great things of simply repeating past mistakes in east London and of national importance and beyond when we, the wrecking many more people’s lives. Let us together British people, come together. grasp the moment. The Games have left us with an opportunity to create a world-class legacy that countries hosting the Games in future will all want to come 1.58 pm to see. Lord Mawson: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. We are at the Motion agreed. beginning of the next stage of the Olympic project when legacy must be our focus. The contributions Arrangement of Business today have helpfully opened up the issues that we must Announcement now all grasp. I cannot possibly respond to all the points that have been made and some of them are not 2.01 pm in my area of expertise but perhaps I may offer a few Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, the next thoughts. debate is another timed debate. I invite Back-Benchers I very much agree with the comments made by the to keep their contributions within the 10 minutes noble Lord, Lord King. ExCel is a clue to what needs allocated to ensure that the noble Lord, Lord to happen more widely in east London. I agree with Ramsbotham, has a few minutes at the end in which to him that east Londoners are very nice people. I welcome reply. the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, about the importance of culture and heritage, and that it needs to be a living culture. It is good to have the Nuclear Disarmament noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, on the legacy Motion to Take Note board with me and I very much look forward to 2.02 pm working with her. In due course, she will become clear about how little I know about sport. I welcome the Moved By Lord Ramsbotham comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, To move that this House takes note of the prospects and his point that legacy is not just a government for multilateral nuclear disarmament, and the responsibility. Legacy is more important than just contribution which Britain could make. spending public money. I agree with him on the need for leadership and careful thought about what constitutes Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, at the start of this leadership. We will always be thankful to the noble debate I would like to beg your indulgence if I break Lord for his leadership when he intervened nearly with tradition. Today is a sad day for the House 20 years ago in a turf war in Bromley-by-Bow. As a because, during this debate, my noble and gallant direct result, 1,000 flowers have bloomed. friend Field Marshal Lord Bramall, with whom I had I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, that the privilege of serving in the Royal Green Jackets, government should not constantly reinvent the wheel having both originally joined the Rifle Brigade, although and I agree with her comments about the Arts Council. at different times, will make his final speech on its In my view there is a major problem as regards the Floor. Few people have contributed more, in so many mindset of the Arts Council. I welcome the comment ways, to the life of the nation than my noble and 1225 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1226 gallant friend as Chief of the Defence Staff, Lord He refers to the lack of an undertaking to publish Lieutenant of London, President of the MCC and, for meaning that, the past 26 years, an active Member of this House. He “there will therefore be no opportunity for us to examine the made his maiden speech on this subject and I look costings”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/1/13; col. 1118.] forward to hearing again the views that we share, and Of course, some details of every weapon system which he has long and consistently expressed with his must remain classified and there is more to replacing a customary vigour and clarity. so-called independent nuclear deterrent than cost alone. I hope I may also share a personal memory that I However, what concerns me and many others is the suspect he may have long forgotten. Almost 53 years reluctance of successive Governments to examine the ago, I first played cricket under his captaincy on our criteria that should guide the choice of any nuclear regimental ground at Winchester. Towards the end of weapon system. Our original deterrent was procured the match, I hit the biggest six of my life, and, if I shut during the Cold War and, given the capability of our my eyes, I can still see the ball soaring over the trees at then presumed opponent, Trident was a credible the edge of the ground. However, as I walked towards replacement for Polaris in the late 1970s, if we were to the pavilion, not out, I was taken aback not to be convince the Russian Politburo that a pre-emptive welcomed by my captain but rocketed for playing such attack on the United Kingdom would risk a nuclear an irresponsible shot when we were fighting for the response involving unacceptable damage to the territory draw that we had achieved. With such commitment to and people of the Soviet Union. However, we are not the cause, it is no wonder that he became Chief of the at war now, except in the eyes of those who accept the Defence Staff. I am sure that the whole House will join assertions of George W Bush and Tony Blair that we me in thanking him for his many contributions and are involved in a “war on terror” and a “war on wishing him and Averil every good fortune in the drugs”, whatever those two terms mean. No one in future. their right mind can think that Trident is a usable or In 1998, General Lee Butler, one time commander appropriate weapon against the Taliban or al-Qaeda, of the United States Strategic Command, said: so why the unwillingness to allow scrutiny and debate on an issue that affects us all? “I see with painful clarity that from the very beginnings of the nuclear era, the objective scrutiny and searching debate essential These criteria, as with any weapon procurement, to adequate comprehension and responsible oversight of its vast must begin with the operational requirement and include enterprises were foreshortened or foregone”. two questions of national self-interest. First, who is it The reason why my noble friend Lord Hannay and that we are seeking to deter from doing what? Secondly, I tabled this debate was precisely because, what level of capability is required to achieve that “objective scrutiny and searching debate”, effect? Military choices alone cannot provide the answers to these because nuclear weapons with the destructive on both the prospects for multilateral nuclear disarmament power of Trident are instruments for influencing the and the contribution that Britain could make have, for behaviour of political leaderships, not for achieving too long, been conspicuous by their absence from the results on the battlefield. agendas of successive Governments and both Houses of Parliament. This unwillingness to encourage both We sit at nuclear disarmament tables not least was exemplified by the Answer to the Written Question because of our possession of nuclear weapons. However, asked by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, on as with France and China during the Cold War and whether the Government, other states that have acquired them later, we do so conscious that we are a bit player compared with the “will publish their Trident review; and, if so, when”? two nuclear giants, the United States and Russia. Like The Written Answer states: many others, I am absolutely at one with President “The Trident Alternatives Review will report to the Prime Obama’s commitment in his famous Prague speech of Minister and Deputy Prime Minister in the first half of 2013. April 2009, There are no plans to publish either the report itself or the “to seek the peace and security of a world without nuclear information it draws upon due to its highly classified nature. It weapons”, remains too early to speculate about what it might be possible to say publicly about the conclusions when the review has been in other words, global zero. Like him, I do not pretend completed”.—[Official Report, 19/12/12; col. WA 301.] that that can happen overnight and accept that the Yesterday, the chairman of the Cabinet Office Trident road to that end is paved not only with good intentions review committee, Douglas Alexander, in an interview but with the opposite as some states without nuclear in the Guardian, lifted the veil somewhat by confirming weapons contemplate changing their status. Like him, that the main factors being considered, far from being too, I recognise that although global zero requires highly classified, were very much ones that deserved those with nuclear weapons to give them up, achievement scrutiny and debate. Furthermore, if noble Lords read requires nations without them to play their part by the debate on the nuclear deterrent held in the other encouraging those contemplating acquiring them not place on 17 January, they will find not only open to do so. discussion of the factors for and against the need for, One reason why my noble friend Lord Hannay and or possible alternatives to, Trident, to which I will I sought this debate now and not earlier was that we return later, but mention, by a former soldier, Crispin hoped that we would have some indication of the Blunt MP, that: nuclear disarmament intentions of the recently elected “We owe it to ourselves to think rather more deeply about this president of the United States. Sadly, we will have to matter than we have done in the past … to review the policy wait for him for his State of the Union address on properly, and as openly as we can”. 12 February to hear more than a speech about fiscal 1227 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1228

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] nuclear threat to the United Kingdom, threats from cliffs and gun law. However, because the prospects for states with more limited nuclear capabilities, or threats multinational nuclear disarmament are so inextricably from nuclear terrorism. Proof that all the criteria had linked with the position of the United States, I propose not been properly assessed was provided by the to comment briefly on the current framework within declarations that no distinction would be made, which any chances of their being realised are debated, “‘between the means by which a state might choose to deliver a conscious that others, including my noble friend, who nuclear warhead … whether by missile or sponsored terrorists’”, are more expert than I will expand on individual and that, aspects in more detail. Here I thank and commend Ian “a state identified as the source of the material could expect a Cruse for his excellent Library note, which I am confident proportionate response”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/1/13; noble Lords will find useful, not just in this debate but col. 1106.] in what I hope will be subsequent debates. However, there was no specification either of how that Leaving out the efforts to achieve a weapons-of-mass- state would be identified or what was meant by destruction-free zone in the Middle East, which is a “proportionate response”. The Strategic Defence and separate although related subject, I echo the hopes Security Review, endorsing that decision, added that that others have expressed that the president will move use of nuclear weapons would only be considered, quickly to make progress on the new Strategic Arms in extreme circumstances of self defence, including the defence of Reduction Treaty without waiting for Russia to respond; our NATO allies”. that he will re-energise focus on the United States What do I conclude from all this? In terms of the disarmaments commitment contained in the 2010 non- context in which multinational nuclear disarmament proliferation treaty action plan, conscious that the is being debated, there is no doubt that 9/11 changed 2015 review conference is getting ever nearer; that he the nature of warfare in a way that is likely to shape will take an active lead of the P5 plus one negotiations the demands on every national defence strategy for over Iran’s intentions, conscious that opportunities years to come. The task of a defence strategist includes for compromise are draining away and Israel’s position determining whether military force should be used at remains crucial; that he will use a commitment to all, and, if so, with what weapons. Nuclear weapons, nuclear disarmament to unblock the stalemate over with the potency of Trident, were appropriate weapons agreeing a programme for the current United Nations in Cold War strategy but are not appropriate in the Conference on Disarmament, particularly over the post 9/11 world. Defence strategists also have to consider Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty; and finally, that he current circumstances that may affect the achievement will encourage the Senate to ratify the Comprehensive of any national aim. In this case, I believe that insufficient Test Ban Treaty, originally negotiated by the Conference attention is being paid to the ever-increasing threat of on Disarmament in the 1990s. Inevitably the prospects cyber warfare. Cyber weapons can not only disarm an for achieving multilateral nuclear disarmament, to adversary before he has even begun to fight, but which all these have important contributions to make, render sophisticated armouries and even nuclear deterrence will depend on every nation, whether it possesses, is obsolete. Furthermore, as has been proved in Estonia thinking of possessing or does not possess nuclear and Georgia, cyber weapons threaten every aspect of weapons, agreeing to that aim after careful assessment a nation’s existence, and therefore defence against of national self-interest. such attack must be a major requirement of every As far as Britain’s contribution is concerned, the Government. As an aside, just I regret that the cost of credibility of its position depends as much on our past what is essentially a political weapon—the nuclear record as on our perceived intentions. For example, I deterrent—is now laid on the defence budget, because have no doubt that our role in banning cluster munitions of its inevitable impact on required military expenditure, had a decisive influence in encouraging other nations I hope that the same mistake will not be made with to refuse to ratify a United States attempt to modify cyber, which affects not only the governance but the that treaty for entirely the wrong reasons, or that that economy of the country. influence could also be applied to making progress Therefore, if progress is to be made with the United with the Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty. Kingdom’s published position with regard to multilateral I suggest that it is on our decision on whether to nuclear disarmament, and if Britain is to make a replace Trident with a similar system capable of taking credible contribution to achieving that aim, my plea to out Moscow that our real credibility in the eyes of the the Minister is that she will recognise the unease and world will rest—a credibility that is bound to include suspicion created by the Government’s apparent reluctance appreciation of the thoroughness of our decision-taking. or refusal to examine all the criteria associated with Although the 1970s decision to replace Polaris with continuing our possession of nuclear weapons and Trident was based on careful examination of the criteria, denial of objective scrutiny and searching debate, and the same was not true of either the Labour Government’s undertake to enable a proper debate on the conclusions 2006 White Paper, The Future of the United Kingdom’s of the Trident alternatives review, in government time, Nuclear Deterrent, or the coalition Government’s 2010 when those are published. I beg to move. Strategic Defence and Security Review or, as far as we can determine, the current Trident alternatives review. 2.17 pm The 2006 review resulted in the decision to retain the minimum deterrent capability necessary to provide Lord Bramall: My Lords, as, for various reasons, effective deterrence and work multilaterally for nuclear this is my last speech in your Lordships’ House—the disarmament, while acknowledging uncertainty about last, I believe, of close on 200 personal contributions possible future threats that included a major direct over the past 26 years—I hope that noble Lords will be 1229 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1230 indulgent over my being given dispensation to deliver the formidable balance of terror between the USA most of this speech sitting down because of my difficulty and the old Soviet Union, it would certainly not be in standing without full back support for more than a seeking to acquire one now. I see no reason why these few moments. circumstances should change, because conflict is moving I have selected this most timely debate—moved by inexorably in an entirely different direction. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham, whom I thank for even that often-quoted justification for such a status his very kind and generous remarks—to make a final symbol—a seat at the top table—has worn a bit thin, contribution for two reasons: first, because there can with prestige and influence more likely to be achieved be no more important question facing this country by economic strength, wise counsel and peacemaking than the vexed one of nuclear weapons, and in particular than by an ability to destroy en masse. Against that our country’s own nuclear deterrent; and secondly, background, this country does not need and really because in my maiden speech, made in March 1987, I cannot afford the very large extra expenditure needed reminded noble Lords of the positive contribution to set up and maintain an ever ready, invulnerable that the possession of nuclear weapons had made to successor to Trident, particularly when all the really Europe in terms of its stability and an unusually long usable and frequently needed forces and agencies, so period of peace, for the simple reason that no prize vital for the real security of our country, are still that might have been gained by military means would deprived of the resources they require. have been worth the risk of possible nuclear retaliation. Secondly—and particularly as in the gracious Speech In those days of the Cold War I therefore fully the first of only three small, rather opaque references supported the generally accepted philosophy—I might to defence was a determination to reduce the threat of almost say theology—of the deterrent, and believed nuclear proliferation—I ask how we could possibly that because the prize was no less than the domination make any positive contribution to the current dialogue, of Europe, it was—just—a credible faith. On this I and ultimately, one hopes, to a widespread reduction disagreed with my more distinguished predecessor as of nuclear weapons, if the only example we set is to be Chief of the Defence Staff, the late Lord Carver, who I a wholly negative one, by going ahead with possessing then thought was ahead of his time. I say this because, for ourselves such an excessive capability for at least not having had any emotional antipathy to the useful another 40 years, and at the same time claiming, possession of such weapons, it gives me, I hope, slightly however fallaciously, that for a country like ours it is greater credibility if now, a quarter of a century later the only way that we can guarantee our security in all when things have moved on, I want to deal with the circumstances. I imagine that that line of argument is practicalities of nuclear weapons and their future rather not lost on those who may now wish to acquire such differently. weapons for themselves. For now, with the Cold War over, the world has Other countries may not necessarily follow our changed significantly, both politically and in terms of example if we were to start to run down our own white its conflicts, and is likely to continue to do so. I now elephant and be seen to be stepping further down the feel that it is possible—indeed, I would say essential—to nuclear ladder. However, to encourage them in the look at the whole question from an entirely different completely opposite direction, to follow our particular point of view. I shall therefore ask three different but stance, seems to me to be very irresponsible for a closely related questions. Perhaps I might now be country such as ours, which rightly has aspirations to allowed to continue while sitting down. be a leader in international affairs. The first question, from a military point of view, is whether we still need the successor to Trident which However, my third and final question is whether, in the Government presently seem to have in mind. Will the real political world we live in, can this Government it be able to go on doing the job it is supposed to do politically afford not to be seen to have the best under any relevant circumstances? To this I believe the nuclear weapon that money can buy? Even if they answer is unquestionably no. For all practical purposes were mindful to take a rational step, could they really it has not and, indeed, would not deter any of the defy any populist feeling which could so easily, and threats and challenges—now more economic than certainly would be, whipped up by those ever keen on military—likely to face this country in the foreseeable contriving a row on key issues—and there could be no or even longer-term future. It has not stopped any issue more key than this—that somehow the Government, terrorist outrage in this country nor, despite America’s however inaccurately, were giving away Britain’s ultimate omnipotent deterrent, did it prevent the very traumatic guarantee of homeland security, while at the same 9/11. It did not stop the Argentines trying to take over time, heaven forbid, the French may be—probably the Falklands, nor did any nuclear deterrent stop would be—holding on to theirs? It may therefore be Saddam Hussein marching into Kuwait or firing missiles politically easier to let a successor to Trident go ahead into Israel. Nor indeed, in a now intensely globalised despite the many and considerable down sides. and interlocked world, could our deterrent ever Nevertheless, ever an optimist, I believe that there conceivably be used—not even after a serious hostile can be a sensible way of getting round this impasse incident which it had presumably failed to deter—without and giving the Government the opportunity to get off making the whole situation in the world infinitely the hook. For instance, they should give urgent worse for ourselves as well as for everybody else. consideration to adopting a more practical, realistic For all practical purposes our deterrent has never and, I hope, cheaper way of keeping at bay or warding been truly independent, and if this country had not off any likely threats to the integrity of our nation and had a national deterrent over the years, dominated by the safety of our citizens, which at the same time 1231 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1232

[LORD BRAMALL] drawing attention to two things that he said with would be seen to be giving a lead in the active non- which, with the greatest respect, I cannot agree. First, proliferation dialogue. I believe that there are a number he said that there had been no willingness to review or of convincing and capable ways of achieving this, some publish thoughts about, and details of the work being of which may be expanded on by other noble Lords. done on, the review of Trident. That is not true. I have To begin with, we should recognise that in today’s in my hand the mid-term review of the coalition. It world we do not need to have a nuclear-firing submarine states: at all times to demonstrate an effective deterrent capability. “We will complete and publish the review of alternatives to Periodically one boat would have to be at sea for Trident”. training purposes, and at others a submarine could be That statement cost some members of the coalition put to sea at short notice if the threat to us or our vital quite a lot. It was quite a battle to get those words interest was perceived to have increased. This variable in—but they are in, they are part of the mid-term state of readiness would still maintain some useful review and they will be respected. sense of uncertainty and could even, at times of particular tension, actually appear to enhance our commitment My second point to the noble Lord is that the and resolve. Some useful economies would arise from person who was the subject of a long interview in the a system of reduced readiness which might even, by Guardian on Monday was not the shadow Secretary of adding to the time span of the existing Trident, go State for Foreign Affairs, the distinguished Mr Douglas some way to assuaging any lingering electoral doubters. Alexander, but Mr Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary Even more importantly, it would allow a breathing to the Treasury. Few people in the Government could space in which to perfect—hand in hand with improved know more about the cost of Trident and, if I may say intelligence, both satellite and terrestrial—a more relevant so, could have made as acute, perceptive and distinguished economical and useable system, and therefore to allow a contribution to the debate as he did. Anybody who work on the replacement submarines exclusively for reads it will know why I say that. It was an extraordinarily Trident’s successor to be cancelled or at least reviewed. candid piece. I would hope that this stepping down from the Thirdly, I refer to another contribution in the Guardian. no-longer-credible immediate response nature of our It was made by a former Minister for the Armed current nuclear stance could be implemented in a way Forces, my friend Nicholas Harvey. He was an excellent that persuaded people that it was both a sound and Minister and he wrote a very candid and frank article progressive step, designed not quixotically to re-prepare in which he cast as much doubt on whether it was wise for the last war, but to present a better balanced, more to go ahead with Trident as a former Minister possibly relevant defence programme. Moreover, by making a could. He spoke in terms as eloquent and forceful as further and significant contribution to the general those of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. dialogue for multinational nuclear disarmament, which I will turn quickly to some of the issues. First, the everyone seems to approve of, it could even enhance structure of control and governance over nuclear weapons the value of our counsel in international affairs and as has essentially rested on treaties signed by the so-called a key member of the Security Council. P5—the recognised, official nuclear powers. One of the first treaties set up the IAEA, which is a major inspector of nuclear weapons developments. The second, 2.28 pm which sadly has never been ratified by the United Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I do not States, was the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty. think that I can say anything more strongly than the The third was the attempt to get a fissile material speech we have just heard from the noble and gallant treaty that would cut off fissile materials. That would Lord, Lord Bramall. It shows how great will be our mean in effect that it would become almost impossible loss in not having his company and advice on this to develop further nuclear weapons because no fissile most important of issues. We are all deeply in his debt materials would be fed into the process. The final one, for once again so frankly speaking truth to power, as which I mention in passing, was the attempt to bring he has done all his life, and for his illustrious and about a tougher inspection system, of which the additional remarkable military career, starting with the Military protocol is at the heart. Cross and going all the way up to becoming Commander- I believe very strongly that the President of the in-Chief of the British Land Forces and also—something United States, in his re-elected second term, will be which I want to mention on personal grounds—his determined to proceed further, and as far as he possibly distinguished action as Colonel of the 2nd Gurkha can, with these crucial treaties. Already there is evidence Rifles. I mention that because my son-in-law, who died from members of the President’s staff that he is utterly earlier this year, was a junior officer in the 2nd Gurkha determined to do that. There is also stronger evidence Rifles. He served in Hong Kong and in that in his remarkable appointment of a new Secretary of neighbourhood, including Malaya. Over many years State, Senator Kerry, to succeed the excellent Mrs Clinton; he told me that nobody was more admired by the and, secondly and perhaps even more significantly, in Gurkhas than the Field Marshal, the noble and gallant his appointment of Senator Hagel as Defence Secretary. Lord, Lord Bramall, who did so much to help and It was a most unexpected appointment. Senator Hagel assist them in their deep dependence on this country has had the courage to speak out against any military and their deep service to it. action against Iran, and to say quite a few things that I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for echo what the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, whom I have immense respect, for initiating this debate. said about the destructive capacity of nuclear weapons, I hope that I will show not excessive trepidation in and the fact that therefore they should not be used 1233 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1234 except in the most extreme circumstances. The I will end my remarks by saying that for many years appointment of these two gentlemen, both of them between the wars—this is relevant to the discussions highly controversial in American politics and not likely we will have in the coming year about the First World to be totally welcomed by all members of Congress, is War—there was a deep belief in France that the Maginot clear evidence of what the President intends to do. I Line was an unassailable and invulnerable defence. believe that he will take matters as far as he possibly Right up to the beginning of the Second World War, can, with the support of his allies—that is important—in the French military continued to believe in the Maginot the next four years of his presidency. Line, which lasted a matter of days and was then gone. I will go back for a moment to say something about Like the Great Wall of China, it was a deterrent that each of the treaties. The CTBT has long been resisted did not work. I suggest strongly that we should look to by the United States, and equally by other countries the developments in cyberwarfare, which are terrifying, including China. It is critical that we should try to and at developments in robot warfare, of which we pass it now. Secondly, the START agreement was have the example of the drone, which is used increasingly passed by a very narrow majority in the US Congress. in Pakistan and Afghanistan and is likely now to be It opens up the prospect of major reductions in nuclear used in west Africa, in countries such as Somalia and arsenals. The treaty has been passed but not yet other out-of-control states, and ask whether Trident is implemented. If it were implemented, we would see a relevant, and whether nuclear weapons are relevant. dramatic decline in the arsenals of nuclear weapons I will conclude with a final thank you that deserves that—here I agree completely with the noble Lord, to be part of this debate. One of the listed speakers is Lord Ramsbotham—serve no useful purpose at all the noble Lord, Lord Wood. For some time he was an and tend to decline in effectiveness over the years. adviser to the previous Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. The Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty has been blocked Mr Brown gets a lot of criticism, but with the help of for the past few years at the conference on disarmament the noble Lord, Lord Wood, he probably took greater in Geneva by one country: Pakistan. That is very steps in reducing to its bare, effective minimum the serious and we need to think very hard about ways to British nuclear deterrent, in working on verification get around that. Since Pakistan’s major fear is not and in seeking to get wider agreements to reduce the Russia or China but India, I will say that the whole power of nuclear weapons, as far as this could be world owes a huge debt to the present Prime Minister done. It is appropriate and right that we should remember of India, Mr Manmohan Singh, for flatly refusing to that we owe him something for that substantial retaliate after the Mumbai and Delhi terror attacks. It contribution. is one of those moments in history when one has to be grateful, for the safety of the whole world, to just one 2.39 pm brave politician. He was exactly that in refusing to retaliate against a major attack on Mumbai. Nobody Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I very much knows who made it, but many people suspected a appreciate the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord body in Pakistan. Thirdly in the list of treaties, there is Ramsbotham, in tabling this debate. It has attracted a real chance that we may be able to move ahead also the attention of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord on the additional protocol now signed by a number of Bramall, who is making his final speech, as, we find member states of the IAEA. This is absolutely critical with some regret, he described it. I, too, would like to if we are to have effective inspection. mention not only the noble and learned Lord’s If there were time, I would love to turn to a number distinguished record from the D-Day landings through of other, very serious issues: for example, China’s to being Chief of the General Staff at the time of the commitment to the no-first-use doctrine, which although Falklands, but the fact that he is a neighbour in helpful has acted as a block to much of the thinking Crondall. One day he said to me, “I don’t know. You’re about nuclear weapons and about the way in which we called Lord Lea of Crondall. Why aren’t I Lord Bramall might develop an effective system of controlling them. of Crondall?”. I think the answer is that no one else However, I will echo the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, around the place has a name like “Bramall” but there and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, in are plenty of Leas around, and that makes me Lord saying that we live and move in a very different world Lea Crondall, so I am sorry about that. to that of 30 years ago. As the noble and gallant Lord The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, has eloquently said, there very little point in having nuclear been on a sort of odyssey, if I may call it that. I will weapons, and certainly in having nuclear weapons not say that it was a conversion on the road to Damascus, continuously at sea. Our main fears are of terrorism or because Odysseus had to deal with new changes in the possibly a serious accident—to both of which a nuclear climate on his way back to Troy or wherever he was deterrent is irrelevant. trying to get to. It is interesting how someone can be a The other main point to make about the new senior serviceman and Member of this House for developments, many of them in the laboratories of the 25 years and still be fresh for new analysis. We all United States armed forces, is that, as the noble Lord, know the relevant quote from John Maynard Keynes Lord Ramsbotham, said, they are moving towards in the economic field: “When the facts change, I cyberwarfare and increasingly precisely targeted weapons, reconsider. What do you do?”. including some of the conventional weapons that today In many ways the noble and gallant Lord’s odyssey terrify Russia. Russia is scared stiff that the United was paralleled by someone who influenced me very States is rapidly overtaking it in terms of conventional much. I refer to Lord Garden, a former nuclear bomber warfare. Therefore, it depends increasingly on nuclear pilot and the author of a book on nuclear strategy, deterrence, which in many ways is becoming irrelevant. who sadly died some years ago. He made an analysis 1235 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1236

[LORD LEA OF CRONDALL] that a contribution to a multilateral process would be in a publication by the Royal United Services Institute along the lines of, “If we do this, will you do that?” when he was Liberal Democrats defence spokesman in That is what normally happens, from being at school the Lords. He was arguing for leaving the decision on onwards. That is what a trade-off is. However, I have replacing Trident as late as possible. Incidentally, he not seen any sign of such a proposition, let alone a attracted me to become involved in the group that he trade-off in practice. We are told that it is perfectly set up and chaired for some years, the All-Party Group logical for there to be twin tracks: the track of the on Global Security and Non-Proliferation, which is nuclear powers looking at their weapons systems and now chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who we the track of non-proliferation. The trouble is that the look forward to hearing from later in this debate. non-proliferation industry has become exactly that—it I shall refer to three points made by Lord Garden. is self-perpetuating and could quite happily go on First, he noted rather ruefully that the UK retains without anything much being done. some leverage in the process of non-proliferation while The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, tried to make it has some weapons, so you have to have some weapons the case for saying that quite a lot was being done to be involved in non-proliferation. I say “ruefully” under the treaty and that it was not just a question of because he was more than hinting at the Alice in people flying around to conferences. The fact is that Wonderland quality of the logic that we are all trying there is a great danger in letting the present position to grapple with. drift. I refer to the case of Brazil, which has forgone Secondly, he noted that the opportunity costs of nuclear weapons on the grounds that it believed what other conventional capabilities are considerable and it was being told—that we would respect our commitments that the lack of knowledge about conventional needs under article 6 of the non-proliferation treaty. If it and available resources so far in advance argues for thinks that it has been duped and that its agreement decisions at the latest possible stage. In a week when was not worth the paper it was written on, that will be we have seen what has happened in Algeria, I think very bad for world relationships. that the truth of the trade-off of conventional, non-nuclear Then there is the argument that we cannot really do ways of dealing with threats could not be better put. anything much of substance. That means that we Thirdly, he noted: independently put our nuclear weapons system on the “Nor is it clear that such systems could contribute to our table but the French will not do anything at the same security needs beyond deterring indeterminate future nuclear time. This is tantamount to saying, “If the French threats. The constraints of the NPT would cause further have got one, we’ve got to have one too”. I can complications”. understand our friends across the Channel needing a I find it hard to disagree with that and I cannot think Gallic symbol—I nearly said a phallic symbol, although of anyone in this House who would disagree with that. it may be that as well. As with two tribes in the South That shows that we have come a long way in the Sea Islands some years ago, it is there to be worshipped. thinking of two very distinguished former military It is never to be used, of course, but it is nice to be seen people from the rationale that we bomb Moscow and dangling from the long room roof. However, that is kill 10 million people as long as they bomb London not satisfactory in the present world as a rationale for and can kill 10 million people here. having Trident. The Trident replacement study clearly has to be The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who is the chairman distinguished from the main gate study. Sometimes I of the All-Party Group on Global Security and Non- wonder whether there is confusion in some minds over Proliferation, is a great expert on this issue. He will no what the Trident replacement study is. It certainly doubt tell us about the non-nuclear zone in the Middle does not mean, “Do we replace Trident?”. I think that East. In all of this, that is where I would put my finger people are confused about what it means, but it just on something being very urgent. Huge importance means looking at what the alternative ways are of should be attached to the problem of inspection within delivering nuclear missiles. I can put both the noble the regime and the role of the IAEA. When some of us Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord were in Vienna—I have got a long history of being Ramsbotham, right. It is partly my fault that I did not involved with the IAEA for various reasons—and draw this to the noble Lord’s attention. There is nothing were discussing Iran, it seemed to me that the nuclear wrong with what the noble Lord said about the Written powers wanted to push the IAEA procedures to one Answer in December but it was only late last week that side. However, we have to recognise the use of the ordinary mortals saw the text of the coalition agreement, proper procedures in the treaty obligations to which which refers to a decision to publish the report of the we have signed up and not make things up as we alternative review. It was not in the public domain go along. before then. It was announced separately in the House I look forward to consultation on the main gate of Commons, even later than the coalition mid-term decision. Can the Minister say what kind of timescale review at the end of last week, that the review will be for consultation there will be on that decision? I do not published in May this year. think anyone in the Chamber would happily contemplate We know that there is a double meaning of “alternatives that decision being taken by default. to Trident”, but at some point we must turn to seeing how this relates not just to alternative ways of using a 2.51 pm nuclear warhead but to alternatives to Trident itself. The question arises of how this fits in with multilateral Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, as your Lordships disarmament or a multinational contribution to the will recognise, this topic has its periods of interests non-proliferation process. Common sense would suggest and enthusiasm, but there is an inevitable disconnect— 1237 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1238 perhaps not unintended—between being an advocate Field Marshals and I, for one, think no less of them for multilateral disarmament while actively planning for their revisionist stance. However, I remain a nuclear to remain in the nuclear club. champion for this country. I have never doubted that the interests of this country are best served by remaining a member of 2.58 pm that nuclear club and being a nuclear power of credibility. Many arguments have been put forward from the Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, I remind the original decision immediately after World War II to House of my entry in the register of Lords’ interests. I become a nuclear power; to retain and, as required, am honoured to follow the cogent and well argued update the credibility of that power. I also never doubt speech of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of that the primary purpose is not for war fighting but for Radley. Much what he said I agree with, but in a deterrence, although the worth of that deterrent posture qualified way. I pay tribute to the noble Lords, Lord and power have to be maintained and reinforced, Ramsbotham and Lord Hannay of Chiswick, for securing particularly in times of stress. the debate and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on introducing it with such an interesting Some may argue that when budgets are tight, and and comprehensive speech. I associate myself fully conventional defence means are underfunded, expenditure with the tributes to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord on the nuclear deterrent, both in capital and in running Bramall. As I was listening to him, it reminded me of cost, could be of greater value to the national interest my time as the Secretary of State for Defence, when I if devoted to conventional requirements. Nevertheless, was not nearly as happy sometimes to hear him speak legacy nuclear costs will still have to be met, and these in your Lordships’ House as I have been today. will not be small. However, virtually all experience of As we await the State of the Union address it is the initial funding of the national deterrent is that it relevant to remind ourselves that some progress has would be financed outside the defence budget, though been made since President Obama’s speech in Prague for convenience and oversight it soon became a part of in 2009. Arguably the new START treaty and the the overall defence vote. nuclear security summits are the high points of this Were a Government ever to undertake to match progress. However, it is undoubtedly the case that the defence funding to some outside measure—for example, steam has gone out of this agenda, which we all as a percentage of GDP—and to stick to that undertaking espoused and cheered to the echo at the time of over a period of years, then perhaps the relative values Prague, and we watch US/Russia relationships sour, of nuclear or conventional capabilities could be more for a number of reasons, with some worry. fairly related to each other in financial terms. Lacking Although global stockpiles of nuclear weapons are that commitment, the arguments for a deterrent posture down dramatically since the end of the Cold War, have to be related not so much to the funding but to today there are more nuclear-armed states and some the widest possible interests of the country. of the weapons are in the hands of the most unstable That is not merely to the deterrent threat which it regimes and regions in the world. Today Iran appears might pose to putative opponents but to the influence to be on track for a nuclear weapon, and it was it has in the field of friends and supporters. It is announced yesterday that North Korea is planning a noteworthy that the arguments against our deterrent nuclear test. Pakistan is increasing the size of its seem to rely on foreseen events, many of which have nuclear arsenal and its plutonium production and been mentioned today, rather than on the unforeseen, appears to be pursuing smaller warheads for missiles which all of us will recognise happen from time to aimed at India. Despite Fukushima, plans for expanded time. Speeches and diplomacy—worthy and as important civil use of nuclear power remain. Widespread dispersal as they may be—lack the same punch that comes from of enrichment technologies will make it more, not less, a country with the ability, if required, to defend its difficult to secure and control nuclear materials in the interests vigorously or to mount expeditionary effort future. in the national interest. Some say the dangers of the current environment If this analysis is accepted, or even only partially and their uncertainties strengthen the case for our accepted, then what real credibility do a British continued reliance on nuclear weapons. In the short Government have to take the lead in any renewed term, I agree with them. I was partly responsible for effort on multilateral nuclear disarmament? That is the decision to renew the UK nuclear deterrent in 2006 not to dismiss as worthless the efforts of many who try and I still do not support the unilateral abandonment to gain momentum for this topic. It is important that of an independent UK deterrent. However, this is not the alternative view is heard and debated and tested 2006 and relevant factors have changed even since against the current, shall I call it “wisdom”, of today’s then, as has their significance. It is becoming clear that leaders. deterrence as a cornerstone of our defence strategy is decreasingly effective and increasingly risky. As nuclear I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, technologies spread, it will be more difficult, not easier, on his initiative in launching this debate. I join him in to prevent acts of nuclear terrorism. In 2006 I believed congratulating the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, that our deterrent could play a role in deterring nuclear on his trenchant and well argued views on this and terrorism by threatening any state known to support many other defence topics. The noble and gallant it, but as the sources of material used for terrorism Lord has not been averse, after deep thought and multiply, it will be more difficult to pinpoint the state consideration, to coming out of the nuclear closet into responsible. If one cannot do that, one has no target the conventional cauldron. It is a penchant for some for a credible threat of retaliation. 1239 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1240

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] Fifthly, we have to work harder to strengthen the Cyber attacks are more commonplace today and grand bargain at the heart of the non-proliferation they will grow both in number and in intensity.Attribution treaty or risk losing it. We are becoming dangerously of the source is difficult, if not impossible. Where one complacent about it. All states have a responsibility cannot attribute an attack to a source, again one here, but the nuclear weapons states bear a special cannot deter with a threat of massive retaliation. That responsibility. Successive Governments have reduced is not to say that nuclear weapons are irrelevant to all the number of warheads in the UK arsenal, but we 21st century challenges, but it is to say that they offer need to do more. Formally, we are committed to the less of an insurance policy against the challenges we like-for-like renewal of Trident and the operational will face in the future. posture of continuous at-sea deterrence. The Government Further, I invite noble Lords to reflect on recent and all Members of this House need to reflect further research into the climate change impacts of even a on this position. Are we telling the countries of the small nuclear exchange, let alone the effects of one rest of the world that we cannot feel secure without between superpowers. Since 2006, new scientific research nuclear weapons on continuous at-sea deployment has revisited the nuclear winter theme. The research, while at the same time telling the vast majority of employing more sophisticated climate models, stresses them that they must forgo indefinitely any nuclear the devastating climate effects that would follow the option for their own security? Is that really our policy? use of nuclear weapons. A major use would be suicidal. If so, do we expect the double standard that it implies It would so alter the climate and, as a consequence, and indeed contains, to stick in a world of rising our agriculture, that the attacker’s population would powers? starve to death, even without any nuclear retaliation. The non-nuclear weapon states signatories to the Even a smaller nuclear exchange, for example, between NPT committed themselves to non-nuclear status only India and Pakistan would produce global temperatures in the face of a commitment by the nuclear weapon colder than any experienced in the last millennium, states to pursue disarmament. Some of that disarmament with massive impacts on agriculture affecting up to must come through multilateral negotiation and 1 billion people, particularly in China and the United agreement, but some of it can come through independent States, causing economic damage and huge political action, as in the case of several rounds of announced instability around the world. reductions in the size of the UK nuclear warhead If we want to be secure against nuclear and other stockpile, none of which we negotiated with anyone threats, we have to think more creatively than our else. The time is now right, in my view, to change our current reliance on deterrence implies. We have to shift posture and to step down from continuous at-sea the emphasis away from the threat of massive retaliation deterrence. This would demonstrate that nuclear weapons to prevention of nuclear catastrophe and resilience in are playing less and less of a role in our national the face of any attacks. On the nuclear side, we must security strategy, and along with the reductions in plan for the unthinkable, but prevention is our main stockpile numbers we have made, it would strengthen route to safety. Fewer nuclear weapons and materials our ability to argue internationally for the kinds of in the world must be better than more of both. Those measures I have outlined in this speech. who argue the opposite are dangerously overconfident There are those, I know, who will argue that we about our ability to keep control of nuclear weapons have already done enough, that it is time for others to and materials, particularly in the face of terrorists’ act and that, in any case, such measures will have no ambitions. Prevention means a number of things. First, impact on the actions of the Irans and North Koreas we have to get and keep better control of the world’s of this world. They may well be right. Certainly, some nuclear weapons and materials. It is essential that the states must be confronted with firm international action nuclear security summit in the Netherlands is ambitious. and other states must also step up and take their This is an issue for continued leadership attention. It is responsibilities more seriously if we are to avoid the important that world leaders reaffirm their commitment worst. If a disastrous nuclear incident does occur, it to continue this process, and talk of the meeting in the will not be all or even partially the fault of this Netherlands being the last of the series is foolish. country, but what consolation will there be in the Secondly, we have to cap the problem by making blame game the morning after London has been progress towards a fissile material cut-off treaty. The devastated by a terrorist nuclear attack? What consolation issue of such a treaty cannot be allowed to languish in will there be when we cannot secure incontrovertible the conference on disarmament any longer; it has been evidence of the source of the attack and therefore there for far too long. Thirdly, it is essential that cannot use the nuclear weapons we have on continuous President Obama and President Putin meet and pursue deployment, even should we wish to? What will the a follow-on deal to the new START treaty as soon as value of our insurance policy be then? Where will the possible. The US needs to show flexibility on missile consolation be if even a small nuclear exchange between defence, agreeing to share more details because that is India and Pakistan has the kind of climatic effect I the key to unlocking the door to further nuclear described earlier? The choice is not between one risky reductions and a deal in which the US could agree to and one risk-free future. There are no risk-free futures reduce the warheads it holds in reserve and Russia on offer. could agree to cuts and more transparency about its The primary purpose of our policy must be to non-strategic nuclear weapons. Fourthly, we must never ensure that we never suffer the consequences of a miss an opportunity to tell both the US and China nuclear attack. At this stage in our history, nuclear that they have a solemn international responsibility to deterrence still has a residual role to play in achieving ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty. this objective, but the character of 21st century threats 1241 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1242 means that its shelf life is eroding. To achieve our to be future forces in development and growth and objective, we now need to shift the emphasis to the therefore much more powerful, such as Latin America. kinds of measures I have talked about—on to reducing The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, mentioned the chances of any nuclear weapon ever being used Brazil in particular. He is right. Countries in these anywhere. That means the relentless pursuit of nuclear nuclear-free zones are going to start questioning why weapons reductions, a relentless strengthening of nuclear the P5+1 are not taking seriously their obligations security and non-proliferation regimes, and a decreased under the NPT.Other nuclear-free zones include south-east reliance on nuclear weapons for national security by Asia, central Asia and Africa. all, including ourselves. I meet many parliamentarians from these regions through the international organisation Parliamentarians 3.07 pm for Nuclear Non-proliferation and Disarmament— Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, PNND—which exists to facilitate dialogue on these earlier this week I asked myself why a debate of this issues. It has just published a handbook. The handbook importance has attracted relatively few noble Lords to is not a route map or a document espousing one speak in it. Is it because the debate is seen as one really particular policy or solution any more than a recipe for the big boys with military, defence or diplomatic book is a definitive guide to what you must eat, but it experience, who can easily examine these complex is a toolkit of what parliamentarians can do within the issues and get their minds around the treaties? Having scope of international treaties and in their own domestic heard the quality of the speeches in the debate, I situations to make a nuclear world safer step by step. would have to say yes, and I am sure that the speeches If those steps lead to a nuclear convention and nuclear to follow my own will doubly prove the point. However, zero that will be terrific, but there are many steps we I am afraid that it is also because many of your can—and should—take before that. Lordships are stuck in a time from before that at The handbook aims to enable us as legislators and which the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, has scrutinisers of our Governments to do a better job arrived. I explored this view anecdotally at the Long with regard to the nuclear weapons debate. I welcome Table on Tuesday, when I asked many of my neighbours it because it is quite intimidating to speak in a debate why they were not going to speak today. The answer where everyone else is such an expert, but I feel that we volunteered was that nuclear weapons have kept the have an obligation to get more involved. As the UN peace since World War Two and there is nothing more Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon says in his introduction to say on the subject. I am glad that the noble and to the PNND handbook: gallant Lord has again made such a powerful speech “The rule of law is coming to nuclear disarmament, and today and I hope that Members of the House will read parliamentarians have important contributions to make in it. In a way, I wish he could have done a warm-up to advancing this historic process … Yet disarmament and non- encourage more debate. I am sure that the Trident proliferation can also appear to legislators as remote from daily debate will help as it progresses, because it will force concerns”. people to engage with the issue. I hope that as the debate advances on whether to renew Trident—and whether nuclear weapon possession I want to spend a little time talking about why is even legal under international law—the next debate parliamentarians really must get more involved in the of this sort in your Lordships’ House will attract debate. In this House we have tended to put nuclear speakers to the point where it is a two-day debate. matters rather in a silo. We have had debates on the strategic defence and security review, but there is no real place for these issues to be discussed in those. We 3.13 pm barely mention them in debates on European defence matters because, of course, they are not a European Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I congratulate competence. However, today is the day and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on bringing this the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on securing the debate to the House today and the way in which he debate. It is one in which, as parliamentarians, we all introduced it, not least because he gave us the opportunity need to engage because traditional nuclear deterrence to hear the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, as means targeting major centres and aiming to destroy well—I am appalled if it is to be the last time; I cities and civilian populations. That is one of the certainly hope it is not—in what I think impressed the reasons why the organisation Mayors for Peace has whole House as a deeply felt and most impressive such a vibrant and growing world-wide membership. contribution to the debate. The legality of the nuclear deterrent is now highly Having said that, and while some have some questionable and is exactly the sort of issue that the background in this area, I hope that my noble friend legal minds in your Lordships’ House should start to Lady Miller will not feel the least bit inhibited. She is examine. In the rest of the world, the non-nuclear absolutely right that a lot more Members should take states are becoming more convinced that nuclear weapons part in this very important debate. As the noble Lord, are contrary to international law. The International Lord Ramsbotham, said, the whole issue should be Court of Justice ruling in 1996 said that, examined more deeply. “the threat or use of nuclear weapons would generally be contrary By virtue of the office I once held, I was faced with to the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, and what seemed at the time to be a pretty unrealistic in particular the principles and rules of humanitarian law”. situation, as I was shown a target map of the Soviet Since 1996, that argument has been gaining ground. cities that were to be taken out in total annihilation. It Already whole regions of the world are declaring never seemed very credible at the time. We are discussing themselves nuclear-free zones—regions that are likely something that there has been no occasion to use in 1243 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1244

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] peacekeeping and conflict resolution, and in having the past 65 years, since it was invented. As my noble Armed Forces that are able to exist, co-ordinate and friend Lady Williams said, one should not underestimate co-operate with the new high-technology and highly the significance of the end of the Cold War. sophisticated systems. We know that, in any co-operation I remember a meeting in No. 10 when John Major with the United States, there are very few countries was Prime Minister, when President Yeltsin came over now that can do that. and we talked about how we could help the Russians Against that background, the cash pressures are recover their nuclear weapons that were scattered around very much an issue here. I think that our place at the different parts of the Soviet Union, which they did not top table would be more threatened by committing have any adequate way of recovering. We made various ourselves to a system for 40 years or more that may secure containers available to help them in that. mean, in what are likely to be pretty stringent economic At the same time I received some very interesting times for the foreseeable future, that we are less able to advice in my brief about the work that was being done contribute in the United Nations and under United to enable nuclear material suitable for warheads to be Nations leadership in some of those other roles than turned into fuel for nuclear power stations. I am by whether we can say that we have these very substantial delighted to see, in the excellent brief that was referred weapons, which we have never had occasion to use. to by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, the very real Our position and the need to play our part in the US-Russian co-operation that is going on. The US is world means we must now review this very carefully as spending $1 billion on helping the Russians to combat it comes forward—I am glad it is Danny Alexander the spread of nuclear materials from the former Soviet and not Douglas Alexander who is leading this particular Union. In their joint Megatons to Megawatts programme, exercise—to see whether we can find an alternative they are turning highly enriched uranium into lightly way forward that preserves our defences adequately enriched uranium for use in power stations. They have but not at quite such an appalling expense. already converted nearly 20,000 warheads’ worth of nuclear material into fuel, making it unavailable for 3.20 pm use in warheads. I understand that there is a bit of a freeze and some tension in the US-Russian relationship Lord Judd: My Lords, first, I declare an interest as a at the moment, and in the interests of the whole world trustee of Saferworld. Along with others, I am deeply I hope that that is not too long-lasting. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for It is against that background that one looks at the having made this debate possible. It is always particularly future as vividly described by the noble and gallant telling when people with such a strong military Lord, Lord Bramall. It is of course an extraordinarily background speak out in the way that he has spoken dangerous world, and we can only be reminded of that out today. I also want to say how moved I was by the by the upheavals that have happened, all so rapidly, speech of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall. barely in the past couple of years. The whole of the Ever since coming into this House, over 20 years ago, I Middle East has gone into spasm: Libya; the appalling have admired his contribution almost without limit. carnage in Syria at present; the issue of whether Iran is He speaks with the firm authority of a former Chief developing a nuclear weapon; Israel, with the CIA of the General Staff but he also speaks with great assessment that it has 300 to 400 warheads, and the enlightenment. I shall never forget his speeches before question, after its election, of whether it may or may we went into Afghanistan and before the Iraq war, and not decide to make any use of them; and obviously the I wish they had been taken more seriously. The House situation in Yemen, Somalia and, now, Mali. The issues will miss his wisdom and experience. that we face include terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism, Disarmament and arms control are essential elements piracy and cyber threats. However, against none of those in an effective defence policy. So-called irregular, and do nuclear weapons look like God’s gift to solving the indeed terrorist, activities underline this, and Afghanistan, problem. It is against that background that I look on Mali and Algeria are all recent examples. The easy the present situation. It is certainly not obvious to me availability of dangerous and lethal arms makes arms that there is any longer a need for a major nuclear control all the more imperative. Light arms, vehicles, system based on 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week spare parts and, more sinisterly, the biological, chemical availability. None the less, it is an unstable world and and crude nuclear possibilities are all part of this. my judgment is that we would be wise not to abandon Nuclear waste from civil industry is highly relevant. totally some nuclear capability, not least because one The international arms trade must be under constant looks at Iran, North Korea and the development by scrutiny. Sadly, the prevailing culture seems still too Russia, and I think by Pakistan as well, of non-strategic often to be that arms exports are an important part of nuclear weapons, which is obviously a very dangerous our export drive and should be debarred only when development. there is some overriding reason for doing so. Surely, As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, said, the culture should be that, in our highly turbulent and the blockage to this has really been the political judgment. unstable world, arms and ancillary equipment are Can any political party in this country go to the highly dangerous and lethal exports which should be electors and say, “We have dismantled the basic, permitted only to the closest firm allies in whom we fundamental, ultimate defence of our country”? That have total confidence or for very specific controllable is the challenge that we face and that has to be reasons of international security and defence. Confidence addressed. As to whether it ultimately gives us top-table about end-use and potential end-use is essential. credibility, in the current world we live in, top-table Because of the introduction of the nuclear, biological credibility comes from being available to help with and chemical dimension of all this, I hope that noble 1245 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1246

Lords will permit me to say a word on the arms trade It is essential to remember that the UK has said it treaty negotiations. The final conference, after failure believes that a nuclear abolition treaty will one day be to agree in July 2012, will be in less than two months’ necessary and is desirable. Surely now is the time to go time. If that conference again fails to deliver a treaty, beyond William Hague’s May 2010 declaratory posture; the issue will return to the UN General Assembly in its for example, by adopting a policy of no first use—that current session, where the assembly as a whole will is, negative assurances—Trident is then for use only in take over, with the possibility of voting a treaty through. deterring a nuclear strike. We could then recommend The methodology in negotiations has been to proceed to the P5, alongside China, that they agree a no-first-use by consensus. However, this must not be allowed to treaty. No first use would be an important confidence- become a treaty at any cost. That would not be a building measure for the wider community of non-nuclear success—quite the reverse. It must be effective and armed states. It would enhance the spirit of the NPT curb irresponsible transfers. In other words, it must and be an important and concrete step along the long uphold the original purpose of the ATT; it has to road to nuclear disarmament. cover a comprehensive range of arms and ancillary We could also build on the UK-Norway warhead equipment; and it has to include ammunition. Upholding dismantlement initiative by commissioning studies on human rights must be a key part of it all. The Government, how the UK could in practice move from being a like their predecessor, have played a dynamic lead role nuclear weapons state to a non-nuclear weapons state. in emphasising all this and in taking the conference We could then share these studies with others in the P5 forward. It would be tragic if they were to weaken and and encourage similar studies by them. The transition fall at the last fence. A treaty must of course meet the to being a non-nuclear weapons state would of course challenges of Syria. require extraordinary legal, political and practical Specifically on multilateral nuclear disarmament, measures. The international community would need the need is urgent. There is growing evidence of pressure high levels of evidence and confidence to be convinced for still more proliferation. There are the issues of Iran not only that the UK had disarmed but that the and Israel. The non-proliferation treaty has as a change was genuine and absolute and that it would cornerstone the firm commitment of existing nuclear not reconfigure its nuclear arsenal in future. powers to pursue nuclear disarmament themselves. Long ago, when I was Minister of State for the Our nuclear policy must at all times be, and be seen to Foreign Office, I had some responsibilities in the sphere be, consistent with that. How do we influence of disarmament. One of the issues that always concerned constructively if we are perceived to be moving in the me—and I do not think that it concerns me any less opposite direction? To argue that our own nuclear now than it did then—was that, because of the complexity weapons are essential to the defence of the realm can of the issues, there was a great temptation to get be provocative and positively encourage others to use involved in an intellectualised process in which good exactly the same argument. It has been powerfully minds, as it were, played chess with each other. I am a argued that nothing would better promote nuclear crude politician when it comes down to the point. The disarmament than for us to announce the intention issue is: do we believe that a disarmed world would be not to replace the Trident system, to abandon continuous safer or more dangerous? Do we believe that a nuclear at-sea deterrence, to mothball our submarines and to disarmed world would be safer or more dangerous? put them on the negotiating table as a challenge for all Clearly, a nuclear disarmed world would be a much to abandon nuclear weapons. I strongly believe that safer place in which to live. Our job is to think about the case and need for, and relevance of, a new Trident how we do it, not to prevaricate and look at all the have never been established. difficulties. There are other practical steps that we can take. We can reduce patrols, thereby lengthening the life 3.29 pm expectancy of submarines and pushing off the need for replacement. We can further reduce warheads, Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, the topicality demonstrating that numbers can be very small but still of the subject we are debating today can surely not be effective. We can step up our proactive diplomacy and doubted. The re-election for a second term of President technical co-operation around the P5 process. It is Obama, who so electrified a global audience with the going slowly at present. The Chinese are blamed, but vision he set out in his Prague speech of a world more could be done to find out from them what they eventually free of nuclear weapons, together with the require in order to have confidence in the process. We changes in the top leadership of three of the other could take Russian concern and apparent paranoia four officially recognised nuclear weapons states—China, more seriously. This paranoia harms our own security France and Russia—present an opportunity as well as as well as the prospects for arms control. We have to a challenge to those who wish for progress along the address more convincingly their concerns. We could road towards multilateral nuclear disarmament. open up Britain to inspections that mirror the US-Russian However, we need to recognise that the landscape transparency in the new START process. Why do we of 2012 was pretty bleak. There, I entirely share the have to be more secretive than the US and the Russians? analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton. Indeed, we could have our own bilateral arrangements The euphoria provoked by the Prague speech and the with Russia. Central to the current considerations by new START agreement between Russia and the US the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister on all faded. Neither NATO nor Russia made any meaningful this is which systems will provide more flexibility to progress towards reducing and eventually removing move further forward on disarmament and which will tactical nuclear weapons from the front line in Europe. not. The failure at the end of the year to implement the 1247 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1248

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] cause for optimism. The negative consequences of agreement to convoke a conference on a weapons-of- taking pre-emptive military action against either country mass-destruction-free zone in the Middle East has still seem far to outweigh any conceivable benefits, merely stored up problems for the future. We are whatever one’s view of the morality or international entering a new and extremely dangerous phase in the legitimacy of so doing. That points to major efforts efforts to handle the attempts by North Korea and being required to revive the search for diplomatic Iran to break out from their obligations under the solutions, which will also require some willingness to non-proliferation regime. compromise on both sides of the very tense relationships There are lots more causes for alarm and concern over those two countries. In the case of North Korea, than there are for complacency, which makes the the search for compromise would seem to require initiative of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham in some meeting of minds between China and the United obtaining this debate—I shared a little in the effort to States. In the case of Iran, it seems that what is lacking get that agreed by our fellow Cross-Benchers— the is some direct channel of communication between the more laudable. I also take this opportunity to thank Iranian leadership and the US Administration. Do the the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, for his Government share that analysis and, if they do, are contribution to this debate and to so many other they conveying those thoughts to those most directly debates in this House. concerned? As has invariably been the case so far, any further I wish I felt that the handling of these vital issues of moves towards multilateral nuclear disarmament have nuclear policy came a little higher up the Government’s to begin with the United States and Russia, whose foreign policy agenda than they seem to do. When, for arsenals still far exceed those of all other nuclear example, did the Prime Minister last address them in a weapons states—both recognised and unrecognised—put major speech? I think the answer is that he has not together, and which also still far exceed any conceivable ever done so. When did the Foreign Secretary last requirements to ensure their security. address them in a major speech? I think the answer is: The initial auguries are not good. The Russians, in when the Government published their Nuclear Posture particular, show little appetite for further reductions. Review in the summer of 2010. It surely is high time Much, I feel, will depend on the first meetings—let us that that gap was filled. say, the next meetings—between Presidents Obama It is of course quite correct to underline the fact and Putin and whether they can find a way out of the that Britain has the smallest arsenal among the nuclear impasse on ballistic missile defence, where the Russian weapons states, but that is not an excuse for inertia. position has often appeared to be as intransigent as it What thought are we giving not just to the size and is unconvincing; but where President Obama was rather configuration of our nuclear deterrent, but to its alert hamstrung on handling this matter in the period leading posture in the very different international circumstances up to his re-election. from those for which it was originally designed? Here I If those US-Russian difficulties can be overcome, join with all those in this debate who have questioned the stage will have been set for a widening of the the validity of the “continuous at sea deterrence” multilateral effort to include the other weapons states, doctrine, which so far has governed our nuclear policy. including us. It is surely, therefore, high time now to I, too, was dismayed when I saw the Government’s prepare for that stage. In that context, the now regular reply to the Written Question from the noble Lord, series of meetings between the five recognised weapons Lord Lea of Crondall, about the Trident review that is states will surely need to assume a more operational being undertaken and their intention not to publish significance and scope. I hope that the Minister can any part of it. I was therefore delighted to hear the say something about the Government’s plans and noble Baroness, Lady Williams, drawing my attention aspirations in respect of the next P5 meeting. Surely to the fact that in the coalition’s mid-term agreement it the P5 offers the ideal forum in which to discuss the seems to have moved on from that. I hope that the content of a fissile material cut-off treaty, which all Minister will be able to make that very clear in her five of those present have publicly supported. The P5 reply. could also seek ways to get around the deadlock in the conference on disarmament over even starting negotiations I have to say that for people like myself who support on such a treaty, for which Pakistan alone is responsible. a continuing British nuclear deterrent, although not The postponement of the Middle East conference necessarily of the same nature and scope as the existing on a weapons-of-mass-destruction-free zone may have one, it is very disheartening if we are told that we are been understandable, but simply to drift towards the not grown-up enough to have a serious debate about next Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty review conference this and to see what underpins the Government’s in 2015 without holding such a Middle East conference decision-making on it. Of course I understand that is surely a thoroughly bad option, likely to please only aspects of that will not be suitable for publication, but those who covertly wish to see collapse of the NPT that is not to say that the broad strategic considerations regime. Since such a collapse is very much contrary to cannot be set out on the table and debated among us our own national security interests, I hope that the without words such as “unilateralist”being flung around. Minister will be able to say how we, as one of the joint Finally, because this has been mentioned by several conveners of that middle eastern conference, are planning other noble Lords, I would like to say a word about to proceed from now onwards. the false argument that Britain’s permanent membership The greatest immediate challenges in the nuclear of the Security Council of the UN somehow depends field lie, of course, in the handling of the cases of Iran crucially on our possession of nuclear weapons. That and North Korea. Neither presents any particular is simply not the case; it is totally unhistorical to 1249 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1250 suggest that it is. When the five permanent members be the kind of nuclear catastrophe that the noble of the Security Council were established under the Lord, Lord Browne, mentioned, our minds would come UN charter, only one had nuclear weapons. China, the round immediately to the idea of something similar. last of them to join, did not have them for another The United States began the Cold War with a three decades. The link is really not there. The noble proposal for the complete international ownership Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, put his finger on it and management of nuclear activities. There was to be when he said that the sustaining of our permanent no distinction between peaceful and military uses. membership depends infinitely more on the role that Both would be organised and owned by an international we play in peacemaking, peacekeeping and conflict control agency that would have the unique capacity to prevention, and matters such as that, than it does on deal with nuclear possibilities. That seems a very idealistic making this false linkage with nuclear weapons. As I and improbable concept now, but I think that if there have said, I am not a unilateral disarmer. I am not were to be a catastrophe, we would probably find suggesting that we should give up our nuclear weapons, ourselves going back to all sorts of interesting ideas but is important that we keep them for the right that were rejected because they were considered impractical reasons and not for the wrong ones. in the past. What happened—I make no bones about citing 3.40 pm something that happened over 60 years ago—was that at the end of the world war, there was a great deal of Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: My Lords, like other pressure among United States scientists to devise some noble Lords I regard it as a privilege to be present at method of putting the genie that they had unleashed the last speech of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord back in the bottle. First, Dr Oppenheimer devised a Bramall. His presence here, like that of the noble scheme that was made political by two distinguished Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble and gallant United States politicians, Mr Dean Acheson and the Lord, Lord Craig, reminds us of the contribution that head of the Tennessee Valley Authority, Mr David Chiefs of Staff and other soldiers, or people of military Lilienthal. The scheme was for complete international training, make to this House. For that reason a chamber ownership of nuclear weapons. It was thought that the like this is not easily found in any other legislature. controllers would remain happy because they would In this debate I speak as a dinosaur. I became have something to do. They would not just be checking interested in the question of disarmament and nuclear that people were not making mistakes but helping to weapons in 1954, when I was briefly the secretary of develop the nuclear industry of the world. That was the British delegation to the sub-committee of the put forward as a United States proposal by Mr Truman Disarmament Commission. How optimistic we were in May 1946, and the spokesman was the improbable in those days. We were led brilliantly by a lost leader, figure of a businessman called Bernard Baruch, who Sir Anthony Nutting. We had with us M Jules Moch, was a great friend of Winston Churchill, as was one of the most brilliant and eloquent French socialists. Mr Truman. This scheme was considered to be the We also had Governor Harold Stassen, who had been best way of scientists making up for what they had a presidential candidate in the previous United States done by creating such a dangerous world with nuclear election. We also had the spiky and bureaucratic presence weapons. of Mr Gromyko and Mr Malik for the Soviet Union, It is not certain, fortunately, that there will be any but they were not as bad as they are sometimes cracked kind of breakdown that would justify such extreme up to be—or, rather, cracked down to be. On one reconsideration. After all, gas was not used in the occasion, in May 1955, when I was there, the Soviet Second World War, although when people talked about Union accepted the British and western disarmament war in the 1930s, it was thought likely that it would be proposals. This was an alarming moment for us. We used. Indeed, the self-control of states in not using had to reconsider everything about which we had been nuclear weapons has been one of the striking elements talking for a long time. of international politics since 1945. Nevertheless, it The Soviet Union also made the interesting observation may happen. There may be a catastrophe and, if so, that there were circumstances beyond international we should be prepared to take extreme measures control that could not be guaranteed by any imaginable afterwards to organise a method of survival. inspection agency. We had suspected this since an article on the subject had been written in the Spectator 3.48 pm the previous autumn by the distinguished physicist Sir George Thomson. No one took much notice of it Lord Wood of Anfield: My Lords, I start by thanking and we continued our deliberations. the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, for a I remember those occasions in the mid-1950s for provocative and quite brilliant contribution today. It several other reasons. There was a preoccupation with makes me wish I had heard all his contributions over interweaving the question of nuclear disarmament the previous 25 years or so. I offer him my best wishes with that of conventional disarmament. We put forward for the future. the idea that before we took any nuclear disarmament There was a time when the ambition to make progress steps of our own, we would insist on a one-third cut in in disarmament was considered a sign of naivety in Soviet conventional forces. That was one important international affairs. I am pleased to say, as this excellent element. Another was that we talked a great deal debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about a control and inspection agency, which, even if has demonstrated, that this is no longer true and that it was not perfect, would be a great deal better than the commitment to multilateral disarmament is shared anything that we had at the time. If there were ever to by those of all parties and no party. 1251 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1252

[LORD WOOD OF ANFIELD] treaty and the NPT Review Conference in 2010. However, This is as true internationally as it is of the debate that momentum has now stalled. Optimism about in Britain. To quote President Obama, the ambition, further progress in US-Russia disarmament discussions “to seek the peace and security of a world without nuclear is hard to find. Progress on the outcomes of the 2010 weapons”, NPT conference has been limited at best. The attention has in the past few years come to enjoy support from of the possessor states is rightly focused on the dangers American Administrations, both Republican and posed by Iran, North Korea and others, but the price Democrat, Presidents of the Soviet Union and of has been a further detachment between the twin goals Russia and the Global Zero campaign’s advocates, of non-proliferation and multilateral disarmament. who include a roll call of distinguished figures from Meanwhile, there is the continuing backdrop of China, dozens of countries. India and Pakistan focusing more on expanding and It is worth reminding ourselves why multilateral modernising their nuclear weapons capacity than seeking disarmament is so vital to the world’s safety and to limit it. security. First, the end of the Cold War marked the It is not our responsibility alone to prioritise regaining expiry of Cold War security doctrines that relied so this momentum, but it is our responsibility. With the heavily on nuclear weapons, in particular the American- start of the second term of President Obama’s Soviet deterrence doctrines. Deterrence of course remains Administration, we have a chance to try to restore crucial, but relying excessively on nuclear weapons to American focus on this issue, too. do the deterring is not only more hazardous, but less What needs to be done? I think the challenges lie in effective in a world where the threats we face are four different areas, and I ask for the Minister’s view changing in character, where states still threaten but, on the Government’s plans in each. First, we need to increasingly, not only states threaten. restore energy to building the architecture of treaties Secondly, the international community’s commitment and regimes that breed confidence, and that attempt to multilateral disarmament is the corollary of its to bring as many states as possible into the net of determination to prevent nuclear proliferation. Maintaining international legal obligations around nuclear weapons, minimally sufficient arsenals, inside an international nuclear material and nuclear security. legal framework that has verified constraints on nuclear Specifically, we have slightly less than two years to weapons, is the only way to combine national security show concrete progress on the range of commitments needs with a minimisation of the risks of proliferation. under the NPT Treaty before the 2014 PrepCom meeting. Reversing our reliance on nuclear weapons globally is What are the UK’s priorities? The Comprehensive integral to preventing their proliferation into dangerous Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty still awaits the signatories of hands. However, there is a moral pressure point here, eight countries that hold nuclear technology. Key to too. If we demand that states without nuclear weapons this is the United States. President Obama has said commit to never having them, possessor states have a that he will pursue ratification with the Senate. Can duty and self-interest to take the necessary steps towards the Minister reassure us that we are using our relationship co-ordinated disarmament. It is the bargain at the with the White House and State Department to ensure heart of the non-proliferation treaty, and as concerns that he lives up to this commitment? about North Korea, Iran and nuclear terrorism increase, I also ask the Minister for her assessment of the its logic becomes more, not less, compelling. prospects of two other initiatives. As the noble Lord, Over the past 25 years, I am proud to say that Lord Hannay, mentioned, the postponement of the Britain has been a leader both in its own unilateral Helsinki conference for a Middle East zone free of actions and internationally. We have eliminated two nuclear weapons suggests bleak prospects, but I hope complete weapons systems. We are the only possessor that she can provide some silver lining. What are the country to have a deterrent based on just one system. prospects for the elusive fissile material cut-off treaty? We have reduced the number of warheads by 75% since They should have improved since President Obama the end of the Cold War, so that we now have less than reversed the Americans’ long-standing problem with 1% of the global stockpile. We have led the way on verification methods. As the noble Baroness, Lady nuclear security through our global threat reduction Williams, pointed out, Pakistan is a stumbling block programme, which has helped nearly 20 beneficiary here. Will the Minister say what pressure is being countries so far. We are world leaders in innovation in brought to bear on the Pakistani Government? the development of proliferation-resistant nuclear fuel Secondly, we need to continue momentum in measures cycles and in proposals such as a generalisable nuclear to increase nuclear security. This is crucial to confidence- fuel guarantee. I pay tribute to this Government for building, perhaps more than anything else, and is key continuing our leadership on reducing dependence on to unlocking progress on both the non-proliferation nuclear weapons with their decision to reduce the and the disarmament fronts. The nuclear security summits number of operational warheads and reducing our cycle has been one of the best developments in recent overall stockpile. years. The summits have led to important first steps in That is a strong moral lead, and it puts the UK in a areas such as safe disposal of highly enriched uranium. position to be a demandeur with our allies and beyond, Britain has led the way in this area—in research work, and to make real and continuing progress in multilateral in international assistance to other states, and in disarmament. As Malcolm Rifkind said last year at transparency by opening up to review missions from the Munich Security Conference, momentum is everything. the IAEA. Will the Minister confirm that the UK is on 2009-10 was, as many speakers have said, in many course to meet its commitments for the next nuclear respects a period of optimism. There was the innovation security summit in Holland and outline its agenda for of the nuclear security summit cycle; a new START that summit? 1253 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1254

Thirdly, we need to build on the real achievements He flagged up that there may be seven or eight alternatives of the START treaty signed in 2010 by Russia and the in the mix. Will the Minister clarify how open her part USA in significantly reducing the numbers of deployed of the Government is to the alternatives that might strategic warheads and missile launchers, and in achieving arise from that? some progress on monitoring and inspections. That Lastly, there is a group of more conceptual although treaty looked for a while as though it would be the equally crucial issues around the doctrines that make prelude to further milestones on US-Russia co-operation up our security concepts. I appreciate that there are on disarmament. As many speakers have said, sadly, limits to what the Minister can say on UK thinking on that has not materialised. What does the Minister these issues but perhaps she will say whether the think is a realistic ambition for phase 2 of the START Government are alive to making progress on defence process? How can the UK play a supporting role in concepts that are less dependent on nuclear weapons helping to bring that about? and whether NATO is planning to address this issue in There is one area in particular where I believe there any way. exists widespread support for a major breakthrough; John F Kennedy remarked: namely, the goal of NATO and Russia removing all “The world was not meant to be a prison in which man awaits tactical nuclear weapons from combat bases on the his execution”. European continent. Attachments to legacies of the He also said: Cold War with little or no credible deterrence capability “Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of drains valuable resources from an alliance facing up to Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being new kinds of threats, such as those potentially in cut at any moment … The weapons of war must be abolished north Africa. The Global Zero Commission, which before they abolish us”. the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, along with Malcolm That was more than 50 years ago at a time in history Rifkind, David Miliband and others, has supported so that now seems a world away. But it was a time that vigorously, has called for the withdrawal of tactical was, if anything, more ordered in terms of nuclear nuclear weapons from Europe to be the next disarmament security than the one we live in now. The nuclear era in priority. Do the Government share that view? the wake of the Cold War is much more hazardous and more economically burdensome. The goal of a Baroness Williams of Crosby: I am listening very world free of nuclear weapons may seem a dim prospect closely to the noble Lord’s setting out of the policy of at the moment. But just as the difficulty of preventing the Opposition. Given that the British nuclear deterrent, nuclear proliferation should inspire us to redouble our as has already been pointed out, is about the smallest efforts to contain the spread of nuclear technology, so of any of the nuclear powers, does he believe that the the difficulty of maintaining momentum on multilateral next step for this country would be to look again at disarmament should inspire us to be leaders among continuous-at-sea? nuclear weapons states in the future. 3.59 pm Lord Wood of Anfield: The noble Baroness has interrupted just as I was about to come to that issue. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities There are also issues around Britain’s own deterrent and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth which have been widely discussed today. We must Office (Baroness Warsi): My Lords, I congratulate the ensure that disarmament activity is conducted in a noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on securing this debate transparent and verifiable manner. That is why the on a hugely important issue. We have benefited greatly previous Government initiated their work with Norway from the noble Lord’s expertise and, indeed, from that on verifiable warhead dismantlement, as mentioned of all those who have spoken today, and none more so by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and hosted the first P5 than the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall. I take consultations on disarmament in London in September this opportunity to express my sadness at his announcement 2009. The dangers of nuclear proliferation, nuclear that today is the last time he will speak in the Chamber. terrorism and insecurity around nuclear materials should However, I hope we will continue to see him. I am make us more determined than ever to achieve privileged to respond to him in his final debate. co-ordinated disarmament but they also continue to I must admit that I feel very much like my noble justify our retention of the minimum capacity needed friend Lady Miller in responding to a debate surrounded to achieve our deterrence objectives. Coming to the by many speakers with so much expertise, some of noble Baroness’s point, we in this party have said that whom have been involved in negotiating many of the we are open to examining any new evidence since our treaties about which we have spoken and in preparing review of Britain’s nuclear weapons arsenal in 2006 many of the documents that have been referred to and we will consider its findings alongside other studies, today, and who have great expertise on the battlefield. such as the cross-party BASIC Trident Commission, My own lack of expertise in this area made me question which is chaired by my noble friend Lord Browne, to my ability to respond to noble Lords today, but I will see if there are credible alternatives. try to do so. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wood, for In our view, that examination should have two the work that he has done in government in moving priorities—capability and cost. With that in mind, we down this path and for acknowledging the role played look forward to the publication of the Trident Alternatives by this Government in that area. Review, which Danny Alexander tantalisingly said this The UK has long been committed to the goal of a week, world without nuclear weapons. Successive Governments “will set out a clear, credible, compelling, set of arguments for have played, and continue to play, an active role in alternatives”. helping to build an international environment in which 1255 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1256

[BARONESS WARSI] which the major nuclear weapons states have significantly no state feels the need to possess nuclear weapons, but, reduced their arsenals, have stopped targeting them at sadly, we are not there yet. While there continue to be anyone and have reduced their operational readiness. significant risks of further proliferation and other More recently, in 2010 we saw the signing of the new states retain much larger nuclear weapons arsenals, START agreement between the United States and successive Governments have been clear that the UK Russia, holders of the largest nuclear stockpiles by far. will retain a minimum credible nuclear deterrent as the Under that treaty, both countries agreed to reduce the ultimate guarantee of our security. I thank the noble number of strategic nuclear missile launchers by half and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, for his supportive and to limit the number of deployed strategic nuclear words, and my noble friend Lord King for his wise warheads to a figure nearly two-thirds lower than that words. agreed in 1991. In 2007, Parliament debated, and approved by a In the same year we saw the agreement of the first clear majority, the decision to continue with the ever Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty action plan, in programme to renew the UK’s nuclear deterrent. We which all 189 signatories reaffirmed their commitment set out in the 2010 strategic defence and security to the treaty and committed to making tangible progress review that the Government will, towards our shared goal of a world without nuclear “maintain a continuous submarine-based deterrent and begin the weapons. Under that plan, nuclear weapons states all work of replacing its existing submarines”, committed to making concrete progress on the steps which are due to leave service in the 2020s. This leading to nuclear disarmament, including reducing remains the Government’s policy. The Trident Alternatives the overall global stockpile and reducing further the Study referred to by my right honourable friend the role and significance of nuclear weapons in our military Chief Secretary to the Treasury is intended to help the doctrines. Next year we will set out publicly how we Liberal Democrats to make the case for alternatives to have made progress on this action plan. this system, as agreed in the coalition programme for The UK continues to lead from the front. We take government. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, this issue extremely seriously. First, having led by asked whether we needed a successor to Trident. It is example through our own actions, we are working to too early to speculate about the conclusions of The help build the trust and mutual confidence between Trident Alternatives Study. The study is ongoing and is states needed to achieve multilateral disarmament. We due to report to the Prime Minister and the Deputy play a leading role across efforts to put in place the Prime Minister in the first half of this year. As we practical building blocks that will support that announced in the Government’s mid-term review, an disarmament. Secondly, we are working with the unclassified document will be published in due course. international community to make it as hard as possible The current international environment raises— for others to develop, produce or acquire nuclear weapons. The UK’s own record on nuclear disarmament Lord Lea of Crondall: I am sorry to have to ask the is strong. Minister to clarify a point, but the interchange with The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, is right the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, was not to say that fewer nuclear weapons must surely be based on the supposition that the review was a review better for all. We have greatly reduced the number of of alternatives to having Trident at all but was, rather, our nuclear weapons since the end of the Cold War. a review of alternative ways of delivering a nuclear For almost 20 years now, our nuclear weapons have warhead. The noble Baroness has just implied to the been de-targeted and placed on several days’ notice to noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, that it is also fire. We have built on that strong record, announcing open to looking at alternatives to having a nuclear in our 2010 strategic defence and security review that capability. I do not think that that is quite right. we are reducing our requirements for operationally Perhaps she will consider that part of a later consultation available warheads from fewer than 160 to no more on the main-gate decision as to whether we will go than 120, reducing our overall stockpile to no more ahead at this point with a total replacement of Trident. than 180 and reducing the number of warheads on board our submarines from 48 to 40 and the number Baroness Warsi: I think those considerations will of operational missiles to no more than eight. I can probably take place after the next election. assure the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that our policy is to The current international environment raises significant have the minimum credible deterrent and that the UK challenges for global disarmament. The greatest barriers would consider using nuclear weapons only in extreme remain insecurity and uncertainty, both of which, circumstances of self-defence, including the defence of sadly, there is no shortage of in many parts of the our NATO allies. world today. The risk of proliferation, in particular—in We have shown considerable leadership in reducing North Korea and Iran, of course, but there are also our nuclear weapon holdings and in increasing the the implications of the technological and information transparency around them. We have demonstrated advances that make the spread of knowledge and what is possible. This is a key part of our contribution materials easier—has been a growing concern. towards building the right environment for multilateral We have heard during this debate some grounds for disarmament. But of course unilateral actions will not pessimism but also, I hope, some grounds for optimism. produce the results that the world expects and demands. We have moved from living in a world of tens of It is only through moving forward together, through thousands of nuclear warheads, standing to fire at a balanced and reciprocal disarmament, that we will moment’s notice during the Cold War, to a world in achieve a world without nuclear weapons. We can 1257 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] Nuclear Disarmament 1258 achieve this only by building trust between states that such initiatives with non-nuclear weapon states. It is a will convince all of them that they can safely disarm. crucial part of our contribution towards building the That is why the UK instigated a dialogue among right environment for multilateral disarmament. the P5 states in London in 2009, when we reaffirmed As well as improving collective trust and understanding, our unconditional support for the non-proliferation we need to continue our efforts to make it as difficult treaty and engaged in meaningful dialogue—as mentioned as possible to develop and produce nuclear weapons, by the noble Lord opposite—aimed at building the particularly by those who pose a threat to global mutual understanding needed to help us take forward security. On this the UK is making a strong contribution. our shared disarmament commitments. Since then, we We have signed and ratified the comprehensive test have held further dialogues, in Paris in 2011 and ban treaty. Indeed, we were, along with France, the Washington last year, and met in between to discuss first to do so. We are vocal campaigners for the entry disarmament issues. into force of the treaty, and we will continue to take The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, asked what future every opportunity to urge all those who have not yet plans we have. The P5 will hold a fourth conference, signed and ratified it to do so. We continue to actively hosted by Russia, in April this year. In the NPT support the need to negotiate an international fissile preparatory committee, discussions as to its format material cut-off treaty, which would put an end to the are ongoing. In order to maximise the value of this future production of the material needed to make ongoing dialogue, it will be important to maintain nuclear weapons. We are firm supporters, too, of nuclear momentum at that next conference. We will need to be weapons free zones, which literally shrink the geographical able to demonstrate progress across a range of issues, space within which nuclear weapons can exist. especially on our plans to report on the commitments The UK has signed and ratified the protocols to we all made in the 2010 NPT action plan. It is an issue three nuclear weapons free zones, in South America on which the international community is looking to and the Caribbean, in Africa and in the South Pacific. the P5 to provide a lead, and the UK will be at the We support the objective of a weapons of mass destruction heart of the efforts to achieve this. free zone in the Middle East, as I have already mentioned, The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also asked what Her and we continue to push for the convening of that Majesty’s Government were doing to help achieve the conference. The UK is also active in seeking to reduce Middle East weapons of mass destruction free zone. the risk of proliferation from the civil nuclear sector, The Foreign Office Minister, Alistair Burt, made a and strongly supports a universal safeguards system statement on this issue on 24 November last year, in to uphold the NPT’s non-proliferation regime. The which he said: IAEA’s comprehensive safeguards agreement and “The British Government supports the objective of a Weapons additional protocol should be the universal verification of Mass Destruction Free Zone in the Middle East. We regret standard for all NPT state parties. We continue to urge that it will not be possible to convene a successful conference to all those who have not yet done so to sign and ratify it. be attended by all states of the region as planned in 2012. More preparation and direct engagement between states of the region The risks of proliferation are all too real. The will be necessary to secure arrangements that are satisfactory to international community was reminded of this all”. following North Korea’s most recent satellite launch He continued: on 13 December, which enabled it to test ballistic missile technology and violated two UN Security Council “We support the convening of a conference as soon as possible. Resolutions. Its continuing efforts to sell dangerous We endorse fully the work of the Conference Facilitator … to build consensus on next steps ... We will continue to work with proliferation-sensitive technology to other countries our fellow convenors (the US, Russia, and the UN), with the must also be a focus for our efforts. We, with our E3+3 Facilitator, and with countries of the region, to meet our undertakings partners, continue to pursue negotiations with Iran. to convene a conference on this important issue, as soon as We remain fully committed to the ongoing diplomatic possible”. process and to finding a peaceful, negotiated solution Building confidence between nuclear weapons states that leads to full compliance by Iran with UN Security and non-nuclear weapon states is equally important if Council and International Atomic Energy Agency we are to find a realistic route towards global disarmament. Board of Governors’ resolutions. Urgent, concrete To that end, we have been conducting groundbreaking steps need to be taken by Iran to allow progress. In work with Norway on the verification of warhead 2012, the E3+3 met Iran four times to discuss its dismantlement, which will be a crucial aspect of any nuclear programme. Despite frank and lengthy discussions, future global disarmament regime. This initiative has significant differences remain and the Iranian position been the first time that a nuclear weapons state has remains intransigent. We hope that Iran comes to the engaged in such an open way with a non-nuclear next round of talks ready and willing to take the steps weapons state on such a sensitive issue. needed to address the international community’s serious concerns. Both we and Norway have learnt a huge amount through this initiative about how nuclear and non-nuclear The risk of new states acquiring nuclear weapons is weapons states can work together effectively in pursuit grave—but so, too, is the risk of sensitive knowledge of our shared goal. We have shared what we have and materials falling into the hands of non-state actors. learnt so far with the P5, and with a range of non-nuclear The UK played a key role at last year’s Seoul nuclear weapons states, and we will continue to share developments security summit and remains committed to shaping as we move forward. Building on this first, we are also the direction of global nuclear security.Our G8 presidency working with Brazil to develop a disarmament-focused will see us chair the Global Partnership Against the dialogue. The UK is unique among the P5 in launching Spread of Weapons and Materials of Mass Destruction. 1259 Nuclear Disarmament[LORDS] Nuclear Disarmament 1260

[BARONESS WARSI] offering reassurances about the very limited and discrete This 25-country partnership channels around $2 billion circumstances in which we may contemplate their use. per year to programmes to counter proliferation risks. We have been instrumental in efforts to build the trust In 2012, UK contributions helped secure 775 bombs’ needed between nuclear weapons states to make progress worth of fissile material in Kazakhstan; create new multilaterally; we have led the way among nuclear jobs for 3,000 former Soviet Union weapon scientists; weapons states in engaging with non-nuclear weapons and, through collaboration with the IAEA, deliver states to try to take positive, concrete steps forward; physical protection upgrades and nuclear and biological and we are firmly committed to putting in place the security training around the world. practical building blocks that will support multilateral The noble Lord, Lord Wood, referred to the CTBT disarmament by making it as difficult as possible to and asked about our campaign for the entry into force develop and produce nuclear weapons. The CTBT, a of the treaty. We will continue to take every opportunity fissile material cut-off treaty and the strengthening of to urge all those who have not yet signed and ratified it non-proliferation and nuclear security regimes are all to do so. We continue actively to support the need to areas in which we work. Our contribution towards the negotiate an international fissile material cut-off treaty goal of multilateral disarmament is and will continue that would put an end to the future production of the to be strong. We will take every opportunity to pursue material needed to make nuclear weapons. our resolute commitment to a world without nuclear weapons. The noble Lord, and my noble friend Lady Williams, referred to Pakistan. I assure them both that we continue to press Pakistan to end its block on the start of negotiations in the conference on disarmament, and 4.19 pm will continue to work with partners in the conference Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank the Minister to find a solution that will allow us to take forward for her reply and I thank most warmly all those who our commitments under the 2010 action plan. The have taken part in the debate. Anyone coming here UK remains committed to shaping the direction of and listening would have realised that this House gives global security. We fully recognise the importance of the lie to the suggestion that we are not grown-up the nuclear security summit process and are working enough to be able to take part in this debate. The closely with local partners in laying the groundwork quality, content and understanding in what has been for what we want: an ambitious 2014 summit. said show me conclusively why it is so important that The noble Lord, Lord Wood, also asked about the expertise in this House is deployed during this CASD. The Prime Minister made it clear that CASD consideration of one of the most important questions remains the backbone of our deterrence posture. It that we face. It is clear that everyone in this House is ensures a constant, credible and capable deterrent committed to the cause of multilateral nuclear against threats to the UK’s vital interests and to our disarmament. I did not hear anyone suggest that the NATO allies. As my honourable friend Philip Dunne first thing to do was just to wipe all nuclear weapons stated in the Commons last week, by being continuously off the map and take a unilateralist line. That is not at sea the deterrent maximises our political freedom of practical politics and it is not sensible. manoeuvre in a crisis. However, I was glad that a number of issues were The noble Lord, Lord Lea, asked about the main-gate raised during the course of the debate, which covered decision. I note his point, but a decision on this has many points that are concerned with the review of not been made. I will write to him if we have any alternatives to Trident as well as with the current further information. position. For example, I am glad that the issue of continuous at-sea deployment was questioned, which The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, asked is not just a question of practicality but also must be about the relevance of a post-Cold War nuclear deterrent. included in any question of the cost and development There are still substantial nuclear arsenals, the number of the future weapon, quite apart from its efficacy. I of nuclear-armed states has increased rather than am glad that the possibility of more precision weapons decreased, and there is a significant risk of new nuclear- was represented. I am also glad that the question of armed states emerging. Several countries that either cost came up, because in this connection I have always have nuclear weapons or are trying to acquire them been a follower of the advice given to me by my late are in regions that suffer from serious instability or are master, Field Marshal Lord Carver, that there are two subject to significant regional tensions, so there is still definitions of affordability. One is, “Can you afford the potential for a new nuclear threat to emerge despite it?”, and the other is, “Can you afford to give up what the end of the Cold War. you’ve got to give up to afford it?”. That has extreme We have never claimed that our nuclear capability is relevance in this situation when we are considering an all-purpose deterrent. The UK has a wide range of what we need to conduct ourselves in today’s world policies and capabilities to deter the range of potential rather than the Cold War world, compared with what threats that it might face, including terrorism and we have to spend on the Trident replacement. cyberattacks. Not all capabilities are relevant to all I was particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord threats. King, for reminding us of why we have our seat at The UK strongly supports the goal of a world the table and what is actually needed to have a seat at without nuclear weapons and is active in helping to the top table tomorrow. I am grateful to the noble build the international environment that we hope will Baroness, Lady Williams, for correcting me. I have to deliver this. We have shown considerable leadership in admit that I should have not read the coalition mid-term reducing our own nuclear weapons capabilities and in agreement, and I am very sorry that I got the wrong 1261 Nuclear Disarmament[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1262

Alexander. I will apologise personally. I shall remember Barnier, and the President of the European Council, the connection with the Maginot line with considerable Herman Van Rompuy. The committee was also assisted interest. in its work by Professor Eilis Ferran of the University I think that I will be reflecting the mood of the of Cambridge, who acted as our specialist adviser for House if I conclude by paying tribute to my noble and the inquiry. I thank all our witnesses, who contributed gallant friend Lord Bramall, whose last speech was so richly to the inquiry, as well as Stuart Stoner, our memorable for the verve and clarity to which I referred clerk, and Rose Crabtree, the policy adviser to the at the start. We are going to miss him, and his contribution committee. was tremendous. I know that his influence will live on. One of the characteristics of the euro area crisis has As I say, I am grateful for what I have found an been its oscillation between periods of relative calm enormously interesting, instructive and, as I hope the and moments of febrile crisis. One such crisis happened Minister will agree, very valuable debate. I hope that in June last year. Concerns over the systemic link she will follow this up by allowing us to have a further between struggling banks and indebted sovereign states debate, particularly when the alternative review is came to a head. Spanish 10-year bond yields had published. reached a euro-era high and recapitalisation of its seriously indebted banking sector seemed inevitable. Motion agreed. European leaders, so often criticised during the crisis for their lamentable lumbering tardiness, at last sprang into action. At that month’s European summit, European Banking Union: EUC Report they agreed that the European stability mechanism Motion to Take Note rescue fund could recapitalise banks directly rather than via sovereign states. The only proviso was that an 4.23 pm effective single supervisory mechanism of euro area Moved By Lord Harrison banks had to have been established under the authority of the European Central Bank. At the same time, That this House takes note of the Report of the President Van Rompuy was asked to take forward, European Union Committee on the European Banking Union: Key issues and challenges (7th Report, “a specific and time-bound road map for the achievement of a HL Paper 88). genuine Economic and Monetary Union”. That was the genesis of the so-called “banking union”, Lord Harrison: My Lords, some 20 years ago I led a by which European leaders sought to restore much-needed vote in the European Parliament for the Monetary credibility and stability to the euro area banking system. Sub-Committee, and included among my group was The single supervisory mechanism proposals were Pierre Moscovici, who is now the Finance Minister of duly published by the Commission in September, but France. It was a vote to approve Alexandre Lamfalussy the further steps towards banking union initially envisaged as the new president of the European Monetary Institute, by President Van Rompuy—a single European resolution the forerunner of the European Central Bank, of scheme and, in particular, a single European deposit which Mario Draghi is now the distinguished head. In insurance scheme—were quickly put on the back burner my middle-aged enthusiasm, I then issued a press because of the fears of Germany and some others that release that declared, “Europe’s new bank manager they would mark a too pronounced step towards debt elected”. It met with a quiet voice in the world urbi et mutualisation. Our committee expressed regret that orbi. the Van Rompuy model was so quickly undermined. Now, however, I am delighted to have the opportunity to introduce this debate on the report of the European In the light of this change, our report necessarily Union Committee entitled European Banking Union: focused on the first element of banking union—the Key Issues and Challenges, and I wonder whether I was single supervisory mechanism. We sought to address a right. The report is based on work undertaken by the number of the key questions. Was it appropriate for EU Sub-Committee on Economic and Financial Affairs, the European Central Bank to take on a supervisory which I chair. The report was published in December, role? What would be the impact on its governance immediately before the banking union proposals were structure? Which banks should be directly supervised discussed at the European Council, and we were pleased by the ECB? What accountability mechanisms were to have the opportunity to inform the Government of needed? What would be the impact on non-euro area our views as negotiations commenced. I thank Greg member states, and when could such reforms be Clark, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, not realistically and reasonably introduced? only for listening to us beforehand but for reporting to Our conclusions were as follows. We noted the us immediately afterwards. worldwide trends, including here in the UK, towards Our report was based on evidence received from a combining supervisory and monetary policy functions stellar cast, including representatives of the banking in one institution. In our view, giving supervisory sector, economic experts, think tanks, the German responsibility to the ECB was indeed the only viable ambassador to the UK, the vice-president of the option. Yet this would create a significant concentration European Central Bank and the Financial Secretary of power in one institution. Again, it was vital to to the Treasury. On a visit to Brussels in October, the ensure that there was no conflict of interest between committee also met with senior MEPs, the chairman the ECB’s twin tasks of exercising monetary policy of the European Banking Authority, the European and the supervision of the banks. The ECB needed to Commissioner for Internal Market and Services, Michel be fully accountable for its supervisory role, including 1263 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1264

[LORD HARRISON] had been struck, which, the Government assure us, to national Parliaments, and I am pleased that the “will preserve the EU’s single market and protect the vice-president of the ECB came before my committee interests of those remaining outside the banking union”. to report on the proposals. The commitment to break the vicious cycle between We believed that it was unrealistic to expect the banks and sovereigns was reasserted, as was the intention ECB to engage in intensive supervision of all 6,000 euro to bring forward in 2013 a single resolution mechanism area banks, yet the crisis has demonstrated that it is proposal. A “double majority voting” principle was not just the largest institutions that can pose a systemic agreed whereby decisions in the EBA will be subject to risk, as exemplified by Northern Rock in this country. a majority of both participating and non-participating We concluded that, while the ECB would concentrate member states in the banking union. The Government on the day-to-day supervision of only the largest and have also pointed to the so-called “non-discrimination most systemically important banks, it should retain clause”, which, they argue, “guards against any restriction the power quickly to assume responsibility for the of the UK’s role as a financial centre in the single supervision of smaller banks as and when required. market”. That is all very promising but, as ever, the However, this model could work only if there was devil is in the detail, and I would ask the Minister to close and positive co-operation between the ECB and respond to a number of questions. national supervisors, and I would ask the Minister In recent days, Mario Draghi, Christine Lagarde whether he could comment on that necessity. and Barroso himself have all suggested that the euro One of the key features of the banking union area may have turned a corner and the worst of the proposal is that non-euro area member states should crisis may be over. Yet we have seen in the past that have the right to participate, but this presented significant when the crisis appears to ease, the foot can all too dilemmas. How could non-euro area participating member easily come off the accelerator of improved supervision. states enjoy equality with euro area member states Last week the Financial Times reported that the within the ECB decision-making process, and how commitment in Brussels to break the vicious circle would all this impact on those member states that between banks and sovereigns and to take forward wished to remain outside the banking union, of which proposals for the single resolution mechanism may be of course the United Kingdom has declared through weakening. Can the Minister confirm this? What update the Prime Minister that it will be one? He has said can he give us on the deal agreed in December? Is that, everything on track? When will the single supervisory “you do not need a banking union because you have a single mechanism be operational? What is the likelihood of market; you need it because you have a single currency—so the further steps towards banking union coming to Britain should not, and will not, be part of that banking union”.— fruition in the near future? [Official Report, Commons, 22/10/12; col. 699.] I also have some questions on the detail of the Yet banking union has profound implications for December deal. The new voting rules in the EBA will the UK. We were particularly concerned about the be subject to a review only if and when four member impact on the European Banking Authority, the regulatory states remain outside the banking union. What update agency tasked with developing the single rulebook for can the Minister give us on the position of the other financial services throughout the European Union. nine non-euro area member states? How likely is it We feared that a dominant ECB could undermine the that they will choose to participate, thus triggering a EBA’s authority in defending the EU-27 and the single review of the voting mechanisms? What will the UK market—in particular, given the likelihood that banking do in such an eventuality? How does the Minister union participants would caucus around a single position respond to the scepticism about the double-voting advocated by the ECB inside the European Banking mechanism expressed to my committee only last week Authority’s decision-making process. This raised the by Martin Wolf, chief economics commentator at the spectre of the United Kingdom being consistently Financial Times? In his view: outvoted in setting the rules by which the financial “The idea that the entire eurozone could agree that this is how sector operates. Given this threat of marginalisation, we are going to handle the banking industry in order to preserve we urged the Government to do all that was necessary the currency union and the UK then pipes up and says, ‘We do to ensure that the City of London’s leading position not like it because it will affect the City’ … in polite terms they are was not imperilled and that the integrity of the single going to say, ‘Go away’”. market was not compromised. At the very least, the The consequences of all this for the UK will be European Banking Authority’s voting arrangements profound, and we warn the Government against undue had to ensure that it was able to defend the interests of complacency. Pleased with the deal they may be, but the single market as a whole. they must continue to be vigilant to the risk of these The Commission’s proposals as originally drafted steps towards integration for the single market and the failed sufficiently to address several of these concerns UK’s place within it. and it was clear that it had been constrained in its Finally, it would be remiss of me not to comment drafting by the need to avoid treaty change. The on the Prime Minister’s speech yesterday. He said that original plan had been to reach agreement on the the single market was the core and the “essential package by the end of 2012. In light of the weakness foundation” of the European Union—which I very of the legislation, this struck us as wholly unrealistic. much agree with—and that Britain must remain at the Even the revised aim of agreeing a legislative framework heart of the single market. He also cited the December by the end of 2012 seemed extremely ambitious. deal on banking union as illustrative of the sort of We were therefore pleasantly surprised when the safeguard needed to ensure that the UK’s access to the news broke after our report was published that a deal single market is not compromised. 1265 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1266

However, the question of a referendum, which has I am always fascinated by the use of this term “modalities” been dangled in front of us, worries me considerably. in a European context because it does not really tell In the case of the 1975 referendum, the then Prime you anything about what the mechanism actually is. Minister, Harold Wilson, asked the then Foreign Secretary, However, looking at other material, it would appear James Callaghan, to go round and get the assurances that this requirement for approval by a majority of of other capitals in the community that that was all countries outside the European banking union will be right. The second problem is that referendums are a contained in amendments to the European Banking newfangled way of dealing with the assessment of Authority’s regulations, so that there is a clear legal public opinion in this country. It begins to take away basis for it there. from the tried and true parliamentary approach that That is just the key decisions in the EBA. What we have had for so long in this country—an example about other decisions? The Financial Secretary to the of which is the very report that is before your Lordships Treasury, Mr Greg Clark, in his letter to my noble this evening—when those who have some expertise friend Lord Boswell, said that the double majority, assess the matter to be presented before the British “will also apply to key decisions including those relating people. We need to be very cautious about changing to binding technical standards that will apply to firms what are tried and true parliamentary approaches. across the single market”. He says that this is a, I look forward to the speeches that are to come and “supplementary requirement to existing voting I am sure that all sides of the House look forward to arrangements”. Can the Minister clarify this? I have the reply of the noble Lord, Lord Newby. I beg to not seen anything that indicates how this supplementary move. requirement is actually inserted: what is the legal mechanism that brings this supplementary requirement into place? Furthermore, Greg Clark says that this will 4.38 pm not be a permanent arrangement because the requirement Lord Trimble: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow will be reviewed if there are four or fewer euro states. the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and his admirable Commissioner Barnier’s speech says that it was the presentation of his sub-committee’s report. I also want UK, the Swedes and the Czechs who sought a level to congratulate him on the way in which he has playing field in the December meeting. That puzzles handled his chairmanship of that sub-committee. me slightly. Is Barnier’s list complete? I would have I want to focus initially on two of the major issues thought that we had more than three supporters on in the sub-committee’s report. The first relates to that and am particularly curious about the position of what the noble Lord has already referred to as the Denmark. incomplete nature of the EU proposals for a banking Our committee, in accordance with its usual practice, union. The committee had pointed to the need for the confined itself strictly to the banking union and considered single supervisory mechanism, proposals for which that in a consensual manner. It did not go into were published in September 2012, to be joined by a other developments and related matters that might be common resolution mechanism and a common deposit slightly more controversial, but I shall tiptoe into insurance scheme. those areas where the committee refrained from treading. The single supervisory mechanism was agreed by Banking union itself will not be enough; it will need a heads of government at the December European Council fiscal union and an economic policy union. These meeting but will not, as I read it, be operational until matters are coyly mentioned in the December Council some time in 2014. The Council also called for work conclusions as, on proposals for directives on recovery and resolution “further integration of the fiscal and economic policy frameworks”. and on a deposit guarantee to be accelerated so that Eventually, these will require treaty change. However, the directives could be agreed by the end of March probably at an earlier stage, by one means or another, 2013, enabling the Commission to bring forward a it will require what the Germans call a transfer union. proposal for a single resolution mechanism in the At the moment, how and when that will kick in is course of 2013. I must say that that timetable seems shrouded in mystery, but it will have to. Some of us remarkably optimistic and I look forward to what the had the pleasure of meeting the Bundestag’s EU Minister has to say on that point. Parenthetically, I committee here a few weeks ago. Its chairman emphasised suspect that the two different timetables were deliberately to us that Germany was prepared to accept the burdens chosen so that the German voter would not be scared that would flow from the banking union and, in off. response to a question from my noble friend Lord Another major concern of the Select Committee Flight, said that he recognised the balances that had was that the UK should secure a mechanism that accrued through the “target” system. would ensure that the eurozone members would not be able to dominate the non-euro members. Initially, On all these matters, my doubt is principally whether there was understandable scepticism about the the safeguards that our Government have achieved Government’s prospects of achieving this, so we should can be sustained. For those who believe in “ever closer congratulate the Government on having achieved union”, the achievement of that goal must now be substantial progress on it. As Commissioner Barnier focused on the eurozone, with the non-euro countries said in a speech just after the December Council either a temporary expedient or a long-term aggravation. meeting: If the euro survives and if the “outs” move to being “According to the new voting modalities, any EBA decisions “ins”, as most of them are obliged to do, it is probable will have to be approved by a majority of countries outside the that the views and interests of the ins will dominate Banking Union”. the operation of the single market. Unless our safeguards 1267 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1268

[LORD TRIMBLE] not seem to have in this Chamber the interest in these are embodied at treaty level, it is difficult to see them issues that we might have. I spoke to the noble Baroness, surviving generally—and certainly when the review Lady Vadera, last night, who has all the expertise to be kicks in after the number drops to four. How we then able to add to debates of this kind. Of course, she is on respond will depend on what we think is the value of leave of absence. I was meant to speak in the earlier the single market, a market with which we have an debate on nuclear non-proliferation until I noticed the adverse trade balance, which takes a minority and composition of the speakers list for this debate and declining share of our exports while imposing costs on decided that it was important that I bring my non-expert our global business activity, and which, we must remember, knowledge, but some voice, to it as a priority. is even now a social market rather than what most of Roughly a year ago, we were debating the break-up us in the UK would call a free market. of the eurozone in this Chamber. At that point, it My other doubt is whether the Council and the appeared possible that the scale of the problem, the Commission are heading in the right direction. Many lack of its recognition among some eurozone members years ago, when I had the pleasure of being a member and political inertia, combined with institutional sclerosis, of Sub-Committee A, we did a report on the euro would lead to a Greek exit, with the potential for 10 years on. This was before the credit crunch struck. Portugal, Spain, and Italy to follow. In this Chamber, In preparation for that report, we spent a fair amount we were divided between those who believed that the of time with witnesses on the possible vulnerabilities demise of the eurozone altogether was nigh and those of the euro—of course, very little of this went into the who, such as us on these Benches, could imagine a report because it was essentially speculative. Those winding road ahead but recognised the determination who gave opinions to us generally agreed that the within the leaders of the eurozone countries to avoid eurozone could be vulnerable if struck by a serious, that catastrophic outcome. asymmetric shock. The crisis which followed was such We are still on that winding road, but the pointers a shock. I remember one witness who mentioned this for the way ahead for the eurozone are clearer. What possibility also saying that we must remember that a has been less clear this afternoon is where the United country can take a lot of hurting. He explained this by Kingdom is going. While a significant part of the reference to Italy, where, in the 1860s, the Mezzogiorno, European Union is negotiating deeper integration, the or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies which it was before result of which is not yet evident, I find it difficult, that, was rapidly integrated into the new Italian state apropos the Prime Minister’s landmark speech yesterday, on terms which left it locked into poverty and low to consider a referendum in response to a treaty that development in contrast to the prosperous north. Even may not happen and may not ask anything of the 150 years after that integration, there is no sign of that United Kingdom. uneven relationship changing. Today, there is the prospect Within the eurozone, the landmark event was last of the European Union’s Mediterranean countries year here in London, when the Governor of the European becoming effectively an enlarged Mezzogiornio, in a Central Bank, Mario Draghi, spelt out the message crisis which was caused partly by the euro but from that the ECB would do “whatever it takes” to save the which the euro prevents escape. euro. The outright monetary transactions bond-buying I would say to those pressing for banking union and programme saw immediate reductions in bond yields the other unions that flow from it, “Don’t reinforce to which Spain and Italy were subject, and signalled failure. Don’t subject the social fabric of the that the institutional changes so badly needed were Mediterranean countries to this awful strain”. They, finally to be addressed. and maybe some others, too, need a better model for The committee’s report highlights the important the future. areas for change before a single currency zone can be stabilised. It is also clear that the United Kingdom’s 4.47 pm vital interests are at stake, irrespective of whether we Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, I, too, are in or out. thank the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and his committee The first and overarching priority is to address the for this excellent report on the European banking so-called death spiral born of the interdependence of union. In doing so, I make one or two observations in banks and sovereigns within the single currency. For general about the European Union Committee and its those participating in the eurozone, the price of stability reports. I can see in the Chamber five brave people will be the loss of sovereignty, with all the political who were not involved in the report of the committee, implications that that brings. So although progress when our debates can attract, as we know, an attendance towards creating a federal structure in banking has of perhaps 450 a day. It saddens me to see debates on been kicked off with the creation of a single supervisory reports of such significance to the lives of people, both mechanism, there is, nevertheless, a loss of momentum men and women, in this country so poorly attended. I on a common resolution authority, or indeed a common am extremely glad that the chairman of the European deposit protection scheme, as the noble Lord, Lord Union Committee is in his place, because I wonder Harrison, mentioned. That impasse has been attributed whether the House might consider debating reports to the German electoral timetable; and people suggest from Select Committees on scrutiny days so that they that we will not see moves to resolve other institutional attract wider dissemination, wider knowledge sharing questions until after September 2013. I am a little and greater attendances. My gender, which represents pessimistic as to the pace of progress even after that. I more than 50% of the people of this country, is fear that the emergence of slow growth in late 2013 equally affected by the implications of banking union and the relief that the crisis is abating, will act as a and the financial crisis, and it saddens me that we do drag on action necessary for stability to be consolidated. 1269 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1270

Let me address why it is so important to proceed However, that is some way away and, in my view, we with a complete federal settlement to underpin the could not have got a better outcome at that point last single currency. At the time of the Maastricht treaty, month. We also did well to gain agreement on serious academic work was undertaken in the UK on the memorandum of understanding securing the the experience of the United States in the early operation co-ordination of cross-border banking supervision. of a single currency there. The American example still However, we in the UK will also be affected by stands us in good stead today, and suggests why, if the events beyond our control as we go forward. Just this eurozone is to succeed, it will have to become more week, we have seen moves towards the establishment like the United States. In doing so, I draw on an of a financial transaction tax for 11 of the eurozone excellent paper from the Centre for European Reform, members. This came about as a result of the enhanced What a Banking Union Means for Europe,whichIwas co-operation, which will now leave us without a say at very glad to see this morning included in the Library the table as the shape of this tax is negotiated—with briefing pack for this debate. significant implications for eurozone banks that operate As the paper points out, the US has undoubtedly out of the City of London. While some Eurosceptics had a faster and stronger recovery from the 2008 financial might be pleased at the potential gains for the City of crisis than that seen in the eurozone economies. Part London, particularly if the actual proposals result in of the reason for that is that the decentralised state-level driving trading in shares, foreign currency or derivatives institutions in the eurozone states have actually served out of Frankfurt and Paris into London, I would warn to amplify the initial shock from 2008, transforming a that there are dangers, too. financial crisis into an existential crisis for the single It is entirely feasible that the regulation might be currency. Without a federal budget, fiscal forbearance sufficiently light touch, with a very narrow focus on for banks is made on the basis of national considerations individual share transactions, not to result in any and political risks. The mutualisation of deposit protection greater business for the City. What is seen now as an makes free-riding more likely, so it does not exist, and obstacle to growth—the FTT—might have no adverse the bonds of solidarity between states are naturally impact at all but bring revenue gains to the participating weaker than they are in the US, despite its federal diversity. countries. Alongside this, we would have the scenario Significant key functions are now recognised across of the UK being seen as an uncertain bet, with the the board, even here in the UK, as being necessary if spectre of its referendum. City institutions may well we get a banking union and then, eventually, fiscal consider it more worth while to be based within a and political union within the eurozone. The first, as recovering and more stable eurozone. the committee recognises, is to break the death spirals The overarching issues for both the United Kingdom within the eurozone whereby individual states are and other EU and eurozone countries are the looming pushed towards insolvency by bank rescues, being recession in most eurozone states, the seemingly never- completely at the mercy of financial markets with ending austerity, with its record unemployment—never higher and higher borrowing costs. Ireland knows the experienced before—and, most urgently, the loss of lessons of this well, which is why it is so keen to use the competitiveness in relation to emerging markets. These European stability mechanism’s funds for direct problems on their own, if taking place against the recapitalisation of its banks’ legacy debts. It will be kind of recessions that we have experienced before, interesting to see how this argument sits with the would have significant effects. However, taking place German taxpayer. as they are against a backdrop of political uncertainty The other unresolved issue is the lack of a eurozone and shaky political resolve about seeing the thing authority to restructure or wind up banks that run through to its conclusion, they do not augur well for a into difficulties. In the US, the Federal Deposit Insurance speedy resolution to the eurozone crisis. That does not Corporation does this; since 2008, it has wound up remove the responsibility for the UK to play a positive, more than 450 insolvent banks in an orderly manner. engaged and compromising role if we are to see it though. Within the eurozone framework, zombie banks continue—thanks to cheap ECB funding—so while 5pm we have a road map for single currency stability, there is still much detail to be worked on. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, I spoke about Let me turn to some of the issues that engage the noble Lord, Lord Harrison’s, committee’s report—I United Kingdom interests more directly.It was instructive am a member of the committee—on 17 December, to read the response from the Financial Secretary to immediately after the European Council that discussed the Treasury, Mr Greg Clark, to the letter from the banking union. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, himself noble Lord, Lord Boswell, regarding the committee’s could not take part in the debate in this Chamber. I concerns. The Government should undoubtedly be paid a well deserved tribute to his chairmanship, and congratulated on their success in negotiations at the also to the role played in the committee by the noble December Council. We have progress on the institutional Lord, Lord Hamilton. In the light of the remarks by relationship between the ECB and the EBA and, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, I should also have significantly, we have achieved solid protections in paid tribute to the role played by the noble Baronesses, respect of the voting rights between the “ins” and Lady Hooper, Lady Maddock and Lady Prosser, in “outs” when decisions are taken in the EBA. I recognise what is an extremely strong committee in which I feel the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and I privileged to serve. note that Mr Clark does not give complete reassurance, In what I said then I spoke of general issues concerning as there is still no clarity about what will happen if and banking union and the European Council’s ratification when there are four or fewer “outs” left in the system. of the decisions reached in ECOFIN. I do not intend 1271 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1272

[LORD KERR OF KINLOCHARD] exaggerating the risk; but in this House we have all, to talk about that any more, because I know that the when talking about Scotland, agreed with the Government noble Lord, Lord Newby, spent Christmas with the in their criticism of Mr Salmond for delaying his relevant Hansard entry of 17 December, cols. 1388 to referendum until October 2014, because of the 1391, at his bedside, and that every time that he had chilling effect on inward investment of the uncertainty difficulty falling asleep he read my limpid language. I created and prolonged for two years. We have now want to talk this time only about the impact on the created for the United Kingdom as a whole a precisely United Kingdom and the United Kingdom financial similar uncertainty, which is actually more existential services industry. for the financial services industry which we are talking The Government declared victory in the European about in this debate. I do not know how valid the Council on 12 December and the Prime Minister point was when it was made about Scotland, but to the referred again to that victory yesterday, when he talked extent that it had validity when the Government made in his speech about his success in, it about Scotland, they should be acknowledging it when it is now made about the United Kingdom as a “securing protections on banking union”— whole. protection, that is, for member states that choose not The protections that the Government secured seem to be members of the European banking union. My to be threefold. First, the non-discrimination clause concern today is to try to establish just how secure states that, these protections are. I want to make a couple of general points first, and then I want to put three “no action, proposal or policy of the ECB shall directly or indirectly discriminate against any member state or group of specific questions to the Minister. They are questions member states as a venue for the provision of banking or financial which are pretty obvious really, and they cover exactly services in any currency”. the same territory as the noble Lords, Lord Harrison I think that that is an achievement. I agree with that. I and Lord Trimble, and the noble Baroness, Lady think that what the Government said about it is correct. Falkner, took us into. So there will not be any shock or It is worth having, although it says nothing more than surprise. is in the treaty. It is worth having because we have I shall take my general points first. First, if we were cases in the European Court of Justice on precisely to leave the European Union, the sort of protections this point. It will have some beneficial effect in those that the Prime Minister was talking about are written cases. What goes without saying is often best said. So I on water. We would have no say in EU legislation, regard that as an achievement. regulation and supervision if we were not members of Secondly, we have established the principle of, the EU. I entirely agree with what the Prime Minister said yesterday about the impossibility of seeing the “symmetry of treatment between the ECB”—[Official Report, United Kingdom in a Norway or Switzerland situation. Commons, 19/12/12; col. 102WS]— I think it is very important to recognise that the sort of and other supervisors. I am not really sure what that is protections that you get in the single market require worth. I do not think that it is worth very much, you to be a member of the European Union as well as because whatever the principle, the ECB will be a very the single market. big beast on this stage. It is going to be a very big supervisor. There will be only one other very big Secondly, I worry that the possibility of our leaving supervisor, and that is the Bank of England. I think the European Union could have a chilling effect on the that the text that we have not seen—that has not been City. The City has critical mass, of course, in a way drafted, that does not yet exist—of the proposed that no other European financial centre does. We have memorandum of understanding between the Bank of not seen entities flee the City because we are not in the England and the ECB is probably much more important eurozone—at least I have not; I do not believe that than a European Council text enshrining this principle. there has been much—but nor have we seen, until yesterday, a British Prime Minister raise the possibility The third protection—the really big protection, the that he might, in a referendum, recommend our leaving one that has been spoken about by every other speaker the European Union. That is the logic of what he said in this debate—is the double majority, the requirement yesterday—that it is conceivable that he might. The for 50% or more both of participants in banking new settlement he seeks depends on our convincing union and of non-participants in banking union, subject every other member state either that they buy our to review if the number not participating falls below prescription for “fundamental, far-reaching change”, five. or that they agree that we may have carve-outs, specific Hence I come to my specific questions to the Minister, to the UK, from existing EU treaties to which we have and there are three. First, how many member states previously signed up. Either of these is quite a tall have, like the United Kingdom, declared that they order. definitely will not be part of a banking union? I think Therefore it is at a minimum conceivable that the that it is only the Czechs so far. Is that right? Secondly, new settlement will not be available, or that it will be how many of the non-eurozone 10 have declared that so small and so trivial that the Prime Minister’s party they definitely will join? I think that it is four. Is that will mock him if he says, “This is a new settlement”. right? Thirdly, what view do the Government take of Where then does he go? He was not prepared to the likely decisions of the others—four, if I am right, acknowledge the logic of his position yesterday when but I do not know whether I am or not? Nick Robinson put the question to him. My worry is It is really very important for reasons that previous that foreign investors may draw their own conclusion. speakers have given and because we know that the I do not know how big this effect will be, and I may be ECB intends to ensure that the majority group in the 1273 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1274

EBA speaks with one voice. That is what the ECB’s On our report, I do not know how many people opinion says, so retaining a viable minority group have actually read it; certainly not an awful lot of matters, and if the review clause is triggered, we all action has been taken on it. We must be well aware know what will happen. The matter will then go into that the single supervisory mechanism has been adopted, the Council where, by definition, we will not have a but an awful lot of other things that were heavily blocking minority. I ask because, given the risk that recommended in our report have not. I refer particularly the only strong protection secured in December—this to the recovery and resolution directive, which is one—falls away, it really is important for the City to possibly equally important, if not more so. Of course, know how many friends we have. Is the number going the intention was that it would be introduced at the to fall below five or not? beginning of this year. I now gather that the Dutch Lastly, and briefly, market practitioners will make and others who see themselves as picking up the tab their own decisions about all these things. European for ECB intervention into banks have backed off. Council and ECOFIN conclusions and ECJ cases are They do not want to get involved in that anymore. all very important and keep people like me very happy, They are going back on earlier undertakings, which is but they do not actually determine what the market rather typical of how the EU operates most of the does. As, us apart, the eurozone becomes over time time. It takes two steps forward and one step back, more coterminous with the European Union, we need and if everything gets rather difficult or if things, as it to think about what perceptions market practitioners seems to believe today, are looking rather better, it is a will have. Will they believe that it is plausible that the wonderful excuse to do nothing. If that is the EU of majority eurozone group, plus the extra members of which we all want to be part, that is fine, but it the banking union who are not members of the eurozone certainly does not seem to be the answer for the but are candidates and postulants—pre-ins—to the United Kingdom. Earlier this week, we had some eurozone, will conclude for all time that their major witnesses who described the state of European banks financial centre should still be offshore, in our country? as they now are: they are European in life but still Will they believe that the ECB will be willing to allow remain national in death. non-euro-area resident entities here in Britain to have We are now in a very significant situation. The free access to its free discount facilities? Will practitioners problem with the EU is that it does things, with believe that they might be wise to reduce their counterparty enormous reluctance, only when faced with a very risk by relocating into the eurozone? I do not know, major economic crisis. You merely have to lurch from but I am speaking of the possible perceptions of one crisis to another before any difficult measures are market practitioners. taken. There may be people in this House who are Insisting on our rights in the single market is absolutely dreaming of the day when Europe moves towards correct. Going to the Court when we think that these much greater integration but it is quite difficult to see rights are under attack is absolutely correct. I am sure how that will happen. It also seems quite clear that it that we can play a good defensive game. But markets will happen only when there has been one crisis after will make their own judgments. Financial services can another. relocate very fast, far faster than any other industry. In 2011, the Prime Minister called for the “big That is one reason why I am so worried about our bazooka”. He wanted a major move made that would increasing isolation in Brussels, and about the signal stabilise the sovereign debt crisis in the EU. What that we have sent this week. The Channel is getting happened? Absolutely nothing happened and things wider so quickly that I fear the movement may be got worse and worse. Interest rates on Club Med visible from Tokyo, Beijing and New York. We debt went through the roof. It became such a crisis already know that our friends in Washington have that eventually the Germans agreed that Mario seen it and worry about it. I think that we should all Draghi should make his statement that he would worry about it. do anything necessary to stabilise the eurozone. At that stage, the markets calmed down. It was only 5.12 pm because it took that long for German agreement to Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Like the noble Lord, come through and, by that time, confidence had been Lord Kerr, I pay tribute to our chairman, the noble undermined all over the eurozone. Sovereign debt was Lord, Lord Harrison. He has always been a very getting completely out of control. Investment decisions genial and capable chairman. I am particularly grateful were being put on hold. When you get that across a to him for the fact that we now seem to be getting large economic area such as the eurozone, you see the before our committee rather more representative witnesses, economy moving into recession and things getting who on occasions represent the majority of the British very much worse. people. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who I enjoy I always get a wonderful narrative from my son-in-law, having on our committee—we have our differences who is German and works for a German bank in but they are always agreeable ones—I am not going to London. He says that Merkel is playing a fantastically speak too much about the Prime Minister’s speech as clever game. She is delaying like mad and restructuring my noble friend Lady Noakes has a debate on it next the economies of countries in the eurozone. But what Thursday, to which I hope to contribute. All I would she has actually done is bring recession across the say is that it is a very clever speech. Rather like the Old whole of the eurozone. Germany itself is now in Testament, there are bits in it which suit absolutely recession. That does not strike me as being statesmanship. everybody. It does not really matter whether you are a It comes as no surprise to me that she has just lost Europhile or a Europhobe. There is something in the some Länder elections in Germany. I will be quite speech to keep everybody happy. surprised if she wins the general election in September 1275 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1276

[LORD HAMILTON OF EPSOM] imagine that at that point the local politicians will all of this year. I do not think that there is much to be say, “This is nothing to do with us, you know. It is the happy about with the way in which the eurozone is ECB that is doing this. We don’t like to mention it but performing at the moment. it is the Germans standing behind them”. That is the Earlier this week, our witnesses said that eurozone sort of situation you are going to get. If you have no bank indebtedness would disappear like the snow in democratic accountability—there is absolutely none the sunshine once we had economic growth in the as regards the ECB—you will have some very serious eurozone. There are two problems with that. First, we problems when things start to go wrong with banks. have absolutely no idea of the scale of bank indebtedness This is all far from being satisfactory and does not in the Club Med countries in the eurozone. However, bode well at all for those eurozone countries which we know that we are reaching a situation where a desire this great process of integration. number of countries—because they are faced by serious social problems—have said that their banks cannot Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: The problem of democratic repossess properties and throw people on to the street. accountability is very real, as described, but I think That means that people in those houses stop paying that everybody is well aware of it. Certainly the European their mortgages because they cannot afford to do so. Parliament is extremely well aware of it, which is why The next thing you have is moral hazard when someone it is linking the two texts. The ECB text is nothing to says, “Well, hold on, my neighbour is not paying his do with the European Parliament but it will not agree mortgage repayments because he can’t. But I think I it until it has agreed the EBA text, which is to do with won’t pay mine either, although I can”. That leads to a it. I am sure that it will insist on some sort of democratic very major problem in the banking sector because all accountability provision being built in. the mortgages are going wrong and you are talking Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I wish that I shared the about sliding property prices anyway. noble Lord’s confidence, but I do not. I cannot see I agree that economic forecasting seems to have where this democratic accountability is going to come gone a bit wobbly right across the board, but if there is from because at the end of the day the EBA is the only any consensus it is that there will be absolutely minimal thing that has any democratic accountability, and if it growth in the eurozone for the next two years. I do not is laying down broad policies and the executive action think there is any point in looking much beyond that. is being taken by the ECB, that is where the rub is However, two years is a long time to have no growth going to come—with the executive action being taken and no relief on this side of things. For that reason, by the ECB. Perhaps something will happen, but there the banking crisis is certainly not over. If the ECB is does not seem to be much sign of it at the moment. not going to make itself liable for bank debt, another We will face crisis after crisis, which will merely banking crisis will lead to a sovereign debt crisis and prolong the uncertainty and the general conditions we will be back in much the same situation we were in that we have in the eurozone today whereby people are a few months ago. still very reluctant to invest in this area and stagnation There are also serious questions about how much seems to be continuing. Resentment will increase. freedom the ECB has to buy sovereign debt. Officially, Everybody says that we need a completely integrated it is not allowed to print money and the Germans are fiscal union in the eurozone. Well, come on. You will desperate to try to keep a hold on how much money have a growing problem with the Germans resenting the ECB spends. They want to pass resolutions in massive transfers of money to the Greeks—to talk in Parliament before very much more money is extended extremes. The Germans will not allow those transfers to the ECB. We must accept that, although the recovery of money to take place without enormous conditions and resolution directive has not gone through, there being placed on the Greeks. The Greeks will all riot in probably will be a crisis which will eventually force it the streets because they will say that the terms under through. Then we will have a very interesting situation. which the money is being transferred are too stringent, There has been a lot of comment in this debate already and the Germans resent giving the money. Is this the about whether we are covered by a double lock voting sort of Europe we want to live in? Already we are system in the European Banking Authority. But, come beginning to see very extreme parties appearing in on, let us live in the real world. In the real world, the Greece. Everybody goes on about the fascists in Greece, executive arm will be the ECB, which will make up the but you have to bear in mind that the communists are rules as it goes along. I do not think that it will much bigger than the fascists and much more likely to constantly refer back and say, “We have a crisis on our win the next election. Either way, we are seeing very hands. Is the EBA happy that we can do this, that or extreme parties emerging. the other?”. I think that the guidance that will come Then we have the Prime Minister’s speech and the from the EBA will be extremely broad in anybody’s idea that we should have a referendum in 2017-18 on language and that the ECB will become very much whether we should be in or out of the European more powerful as it goes along. Union. If the eurozone is going absolutely nowhere We also have the problem of what on earth we do and is no better than it is today, as many people think about democratic accountability. It is not going to be a will be the case, I cannot see this country ever voting very satisfactory situation when the ECB moves in on to stay within the European Union. a large bank and says, “This thing is going absolutely nowhere. Its liabilities are appalling. We must lay off 5.25 pm half the people, break it down and get it into a more Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, it has happened sensible state”. That will not be a popular move when more times than I can recall since I have been in this thousands of people are put on the street. You can House, nearly two and a half years, that I have had the 1277 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1278 pleasure of following the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, The other issue that I want to address, which was or he has had the task of following me. Although I dealt with in the committee’s report at some length, is rarely agree with him about very much, it is a great whether it is desirable or acceptable for the banking pleasure to debate with him. However, I did agree with industry come in in stages. Only the first stage so far two things that he said this afternoon. First, I share has been agreed. Of course, it cannot be certain that his view that the ECB, in practice, is likely to have a there can be any agreement with the second or third dominating and increasing intellectual influence on stages, the first stage being the supervision regime and the EBA. Secondly, I very much agree with his the second and third stages being retail deposit insurance characterisation of the way the European Union makes and resolution procedure and mechanism. Clearly, it is progress as two steps forward, one step back. Although not ideal; it is not the way one would wish these things he probably would not agree, I think that is a very to be, but I think it is a reasonably acceptable situation sensible, sound and prudent way of advancing in on a temporary basis, and a good deal better than difficult territory, and I am very content that that has nothing. I am glad that we have the process going. been and continues to be the process. Had he put the I have to say that I think the Germans are not being order the other way around, I would have very much rational. Maybe the Germans, and the Dutch, are disagreed with him, but his judgment and mine are resisting a European Union-wide resolution and retail very much the same in that way. deposit insurance system simply because if there were I want to add my own word of tribute to the a problem and a run on the banks in one member state noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and to everyone on the because in that particular context depositors no longer committee for having brought forward a very interesting had confidence in the credibility of the retail deposit and timely report. I want to address just two of the insurance system, and if that confidence depended issues on which the committee focused in drawing up entirely on the credibility of the national Government, that report, and then to say a few words about the unsupported elsewhere in the EU, there would inevitably position of the British Government. First, I recognise be a systemic crisis. Similarly, if it was necessary for a that the testimony that the committee received was particular member state to recapitalise the banks, and rather conflicting. A very important and fundamental that task was out of proportion to the financial resources issue is whether it is right to have the monetary of that particular member state, that would engender authority—in this case, the European Central Bank—as immediately a sovereign debt crisis for that country. the supervisory authority for the banking system. It What is more, such a crisis would never be limited seems to me that it is right. There is often said to be a to one member state. There would be knock-on and conflict of interest between financial stability and systemic effects for the whole of the European Union. monetary policy. I see it not so much as a conflict of If Greece went down, we know that there would be interest but of objectives. It is not the sort of conflict effects elsewhere, or if Portugal went down again there that can be eased or solved by separation of would no doubt be strong effects in Spain. The responsibilities. On the contrary, it is the sort of conflict consequences of that would be that German and that can be made a great deal worse by the excessive Dutch banks—to take the examples of the two countries separation of responsibilities, because if there is a that are resisting the logic of the banking union, which problem and in difficult times the supervisory authority I think they are—would find that they are making feels it necessary in the interests of financial stability great write-offs of their assets that were exposed to to provide more liquidity to the market, for example, these particular markets and deposits with those banks, or to support a particular bank by replacing deposits and so on. They could be supported only by their own that may be fleeing elsewhere, or otherwise, that decision banks, which would have to be recapitalised by their would immediately have monetary consequences and own national Governments. could be implemented anyway only by the central bank. The cost of such a bailout would be enormous and vastly greater than any credible drawing in respect of The central bank needs to be brought in—inevitably, one, two or three particular institutions on a retail it must be brought in—and the earlier the better. What deposit insurance scheme. I think that the Germans is more, the central bank is in a very good position are being quite illogical about this. They are not because of its open market operations, because it can looking at the matter in the long term or in the round. see to what extent banks are varying their levels of No doubt intellectually they might agree with me, but deposit with itself, and because it knows about any they find themselves under political constraints. I hope drawings through the back door by banks in its area of that with the various events that are in the pipeline in responsibility. It is in a very good position to see the coming months they will find that it is politically whether liquidity problems are emerging for institutions possible to do what I think is the rational thing to do. in their area. Therefore it seems to me extremely important that the supervisory authority and the central I now want to say something about the position of bank should work together anyway. The idea of having the British Government in all this, which seems to be two different directorates within one institution—the perfectly ludicrous, if I may say so. I understand that ECB—responsible for stability and for monetary policy they see the banking union as a good thing for others seems to me a very good solution. I personally have but not for us. That immediately is a slightly suspect the greatest confidence that, if there is a difficult argument, and one wonders why it is the case. I looked decision to be made—as there will be, inevitably—it at the committee report to see what the British should be Mario Draghi, a person in whom I have the Government’s analysis of the national interest was, greatest confidence, who has the responsibility of making and why it was not in our interests to join the banking that decision. union if it made sense for other people. There is no 1279 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1280

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] it is being bear-led by the Eurosceptics—it is impossible such explanation in the whole document. I shall read what to do the rational and sensible thing, so they have passes for an explanation to the House. Paragraph 129 simply excluded a priori any possibility of our joining states: the banking union, even as a participant that is not a “The Government have repeatedly stated that the UK will not member of the euro. A large number of countries will participate in the banking union proposals, on the grounds that join on that basis—almost certainly a good deal more the measures logically flow from monetary union and are designed than the four that have already announced they will. I to secure the success of the single currency”. expect that every east European country other than That is a quite unconvincing argument. If someone the Czech Republic to come into that category. As the buys a car, a pharmaceutical product or a piece or noble Lord, Lord Kerr, very convincingly argued, that electronic gadgetry, he is not worried about who the would cause great problems for us. It is absurd for the product was originally designed for; he is worried British Government to say that one of the major about whether it is suitable for him, and whether it will difficulties here is the voting system, because the problem work for him. That is the argument that needs to be would be resolved if we were part of the system, and at addressed, but it has not been addressed by the least one of a minority of nine or 10. Government at all. If we do not join the banking union, there are only three logical possibilities. I do not think that any Lord Marlesford: Surely what the noble Lord has Member of the House will want to argue with my just been saying is precisely the reason why the British logic, which is very basic and elementary. The first is Government do not want to join the banking union. that we have a supervisory system that in practice They are saying that there must be mutualisation simply tracks that of the ECB; we will do exactly what through the European Central Bank and the banking the ECB does in its area of responsibility, for example union of the debt of banks in the euro area. Is he in matters of licensing, authorisation, intervention really suggesting that it would be sensible for the and guidance to banks. That would mean that we were British Government to share in that liability, and that de facto part of the system, with the important difference if, as he described graphically, there were to be a run that we would not be part of the decision-making on one of the banks in Greece, we, too, should have mechanism and would not have the kind of influence our share in picking up the pieces? within the system that otherwise we would have had. Lord Davies of Stamford: Indeed, I am suggesting The second possibility is that we adopt a supervisory exactly that to the noble Lord and to the House. It system that is somehow stricter and more severe than would be very much in our interests to do so, for the that adopted on the continent by, for example, the reason that I thought I had explained. Perhaps the Republic of Ireland under the ECB. That would mean noble Lord did not follow my argument, which was that banks here would find that they were at a competitive that if there were a run on the banks in a member disadvantage doing their business out of London as state, left to itself it could engender a systemic crisis opposed to doing it out of Paris, Frankfurt or somewhere that would be far more costly to us, because British else. That would not be a very intelligent thing to do. banks would write off a very large portion of their The third possibility is that we adopt a regime of assets as a result of collapses elsewhere. In order to supervision that is lighter and more complacent than restore those banks to financial viability, we would that adopted by the ECB. In the short term, that might need to recapitalise and support them in ways that attract institutions that do not like the stricter regime would be much more expensive than the likely cost of on the continent, but in a crisis we would be much any contribution to the system. I do not want to more exposed because we would have a lesser degree detain the House for too long, but I believe that we of credibility. It would be considered that our institutions should have interventions such as this, so I will give and banks were less safe and sound than those across way to the noble Lord. the Channel, or indeed across the Irish Sea. That, too, would be a bad day’s work for the country. We would Lord Marlesford: In that case, why did the American face a situation in which either we would have no banks not recapitalise the British banks that went advantage at all, but the disadvantage of not having bust? the influence that we ought to have and that is commensurate with the importance of the City, or we Lord Davies of Stamford: It is obviously necessary, would be otherwise disadvantaged either in competitive if we are going to get involved in any kind of obligation terms or in our ability to withstand crises. That would of this kind, to make sure that we come under the be a profoundly bad day’s work for the country—and same supervisory authority and that everybody works it is exactly the day’s work that this Government have according to the same rules. That is palpably not the done. I deprecate it very strongly indeed. case with us and the United States. The position of the British Government is clearly 5.39 pm that they are not interested in making a dispassionate and functional analysis of the national interest in this Lord Dykes: My Lords, it is always a pleasure to area. If they were interested in doing so, it would have follow the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, been quoted in the report and we would all know because, whatever other interests and policies he has about it. They have simply decided that on party in his mind, he is always a very robust, fervent and political grounds, because of the need to conciliate the positive European. We need more of that in this Eurosceptics in the Tory party—we know that this is country. I am glad, too, that in recent years the Labour the way the country’s foreign policy is now being run; Party has become much more positive on Europe 1281 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1282 following the passage of the Lisbon treaty. That is a or informally. It is interesting to measure and to see very good development for this country. It can emulate where that got us when we were kicked out of the the good example of the Liberal Democrat Party as exchange rate mechanism by market forces, when the being always in the vanguard of the pro-European Treasury was for a moment probably the worst ministry position—patriotic Britishers, of course, but also of finance in Western Europe. It has not carried on enthusiastic Europeans, and those two things can go being like that—it recovered and has produced some closely together. very good decisions since then—but that was the Yesterday the Prime Minister made his sad speech— lamentable position at the time. actually, it was not a sad speech but a sad occasion. President Van Rompuy, who met the committee, is One has to acknowledge that there were some good quoted in the third paragraph on page 57 of the report bits in the speech and, as my noble friend Lord Hamilton as saying that, at Epsom said, he tried to appeal to everyone, and in “the EU was in a better place than a few months ago. No-one was that sense was quite clever. However, it was a sad now speaking about imminent eurozone collapse. Although the occasion because he has unleashed for himself a number problems had not disappeared, things were ‘on the right track’ of very disturbing things, depending on how they but the EU might ultimately need to give Greece more time”, develop in future, that are going to destabilise British which is a very fair point. In the preceding paragraph, politics significantly. I will return to those themes in he also said that he had to remind the committee that my concluding remarks. these member states—sovereign member states, all of Many good things have been said so far about the them—are very lively democracies, so it takes time to EBU report. I shall refer to it briefly but that is not to reach these decisions. So, although people complained decry its quality. In fact, we in this House are used to about the process being slow, the slower it was, the having reports of high quality from the European better the structure that was emerging, as I hope the Union Select Committee and its sub-committees. I am Minister will agree. going to embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, In the third paragraph of the summary, the committee deliberately by saying that this report is outstanding. I states, thank him and his sub-committee members for having created this excellent report. “we welcome the publication of the Single Supervisory Mechanism proposals as a significant first step towards banking union. We It highlights, in a disturbing and worrying way, the agree that the European Central Bank, to be given ultimate acute complexities of the architecture or the system. A supervisory responsibility for every euro area bank, is the only number of significant members, led, I suppose, by the organisation with the necessary credibility and authority to take United Kingdom, which, in a way, is the largest of on this role”. them, are not going to be involved in this important When the Minister comes to sum up, will he deal with developing system and framework. That is a matter of that matter and the concern that the committee expressed great concern, and the sooner we have the courage to about the concentration of so much power and its align ourselves with these proposals, the better. That practical effects on the institutional banking market may take some time, and of course nationalism raises place? its ugly head all the time and we have to contend with In paragraph 3 on page 7, the report states: that. My noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom would not admit this or agree with me but, as a result of “Although the Government have made clear that the UK will being driven out of the exchange rate mechanism in not participate in a banking union … the UK’s decision not to participate, should not and need not adversely affect London’s 1992—that hugely humiliating moment under a position as the leading financial centre in Europe, nor undermine Conservative Government—the United Kingdom was the single market. The strength of this argument may soon be subsequently very scared of the euro, afraid of the tested”. single currency, nervous as hell about what it might That is quite an ominous point and I would welcome develop into and always looking for things to go the Minister’s reassurance on that matter. wrong. The fact that the report looks at the way in which I repeat my warm thanks for a truly excellent report. this new system will control the banks—the clearing It has helped a great deal in taking an immensely banks, the joint stock banks, the commercial banks complicated subject further. In his distinguished opening and the other banks—in the eurozone area is an speech, the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, set an admirable outstanding achievement. I want to quote from what precedent by referring to yesterday’s referendum decision was said by President Van Rompuy, but first I will give and so on. I should like to conclude by making a few way to my noble friend. points on that in this debate. It was a sad day for the reasons that I have suggested and the effects will be very disturbing as time goes on. Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Does my noble friend I am very glad to see that the Deputy Prime Minister, accept that if the United Kingdom were in the eurozone quite rightly, established a different position—that today, with the deficit that we are running and the debt there might in future be a need for a referendum levels that we have, we would be in intensive care? depending on the outcome of any negotiations, but to threaten one now, when no negotiating posture is Lord Dykes: I do not agree with that, and anyway it being created and there are many years to go before we is too theoretical even to consider. By the way, our reach the end year of this decision-making suggestion, deficit is £100 billion and we have a free-floating will create a great many difficulties and uncertainty, currency that has now been devalued about eight particularly in the business world. There have been times since the war, either formally in the marketplace many comments to that effect. 1283 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1284

[LORD DYKES] I regret that because I think that in many ways It is sad that we have got ourselves into the position Mr Cameron has been an excellent Prime Minister of being the bad member of the club. It is a great pity. and a very personable senior political colleague, so it is It is rather foolish of this country to lecture other a great shame that he has allowed himself to be put in countries on the crucial importance of competitiveness that position. and efficiency in their economies when we have a As my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom said, terrible statistical deficit in our own trading and do there is to be a major debate in this House next week not have a very strong economy. To suggest to the on the decisions that were announced yesterday and Germans that they need to improve their economy in the future outlook, in which I hope to take part. I shall comparison with English examples is going too far. I therefore leave it at that for the moment, but it is part wish I did not have to say that, but that is the reality of and parcel of everything that we will examine in our the situation. The Germans remain modest about Select Committee and its sub-committees. It is all their economic achievements. about the huge complexities of Britain remaining a The sheer awkwardness of examining the subjects bad member of the club and refusing to co-operate in in this report while not being in the eurozone will these matters when co-operation is absolutely essential. come out more and more as time goes on. If we could only restore our courage and become a mature and enthusiastic member of the European Union, it would 5.51 pm be very good for this country. Lord Flight: My Lords, perhaps I may take the There were some interesting points made in the House back to the European banking union proposals press yesterday about Mr Cameron’s speech. In an and start with my own tribute to the noble Lord, Lord article today in the best newspaper in the country—the Harrison, as an enormously courteous and conscientious Guardian, of course—Martin Kettle states: chairman of our committee. At least for me, I allowed myself to go to Brussels, feeling slightly worried as to “Cameron’s speech was not brave. It was reckless. The brave whether I might be contaminated by doing so. Two stance yesterday was Ed Miliband’s, sticking to Labour’s practical pro-Europeanism and refusing to follow suit. Instead, yesterday things struck me during the visit. The first was that marks the moment when Cameron’s pragmatic centre-right political President Van Rompuy is a much more impressive and project finally bent the knee to the ideological fantasy about determined person than I had perceived previously Europe that still grips the Tory party”. and, to my mind, he will have had considerable influence Anthony Hilton, who has been a long-standing supporter in persuading Germany at a crucial time that it was of the euro and the eurozone and now feels that the not a good idea to allow, encourage or force Greece to eurozone has passed the danger point—after all, it has leave the euro. Secondly, I cannot resist teasing the never been a weak currency; it has always remained a noble Lord, Lord Kerr. While we were wandering strong currency despite the crisis and it is only that around the buildings he said to me, “The trouble is there were four or five weak members of that currency that none of the young people in the Foreign Office which had to have assistance provided by collective want to come here any longer because they know we action—says in today’s Evening Standard: will not be members in five years’ time”. I thought that that was quite an interesting little judgment. “If Cameron thinks these concessions”— I want to make two further general points. The first to what I believe he used to call the head-bangers— is that while the single market sounds wonderful, what “are going to appease his lunatic fringe and calm things down, he we really want, please, is single market free trade. I might equally consider applying to be Prime Minister of the know from my own commercial career that a great planet Zog. The sad reality of his capitulation to Eurosceptic deal of the single market serves the interests of the pressure is it virtually guarantees that Tory backbenchers and their media acolytes will talk about nothing else between now and large players in their sectors and is highly uncompetitive. an election which is still two years off”. Wide access is a fair point, but to my mind the single market needs a really good dose of free trade if it is to Of course, they might be tempted to cite the Irish as achieve what it is supposed to achieve. Secondly, I saying that it will be a good occasion, they are quite want to make a point about the City of London and relaxed and will go along with it, but that is not true its business. It is becoming increasingly global and is either. I quote the Irish reaction in today’s Irish Times, not just an adjunct of Europe. The impression I am where Arthur Beesley says that, being given by various European operations in the “it is readily acknowledged in official circles that the British City is that you would have to have an EU that was debate and uncertainty over its EU membership have clear potential very protectionist and was even threatening to impose to destabilise European politics and create friction with other capital controls for it to be uncomfortable for people member states”. in London. If you had an EU which was doing that, I Finally, I shall quote my right honourable friend in the think that people would not want to put money there other place, Sir Menzies Campbell: anyway. I am not complacent about the position of the “This was never about the UK; it was always about Ukip. The City of London and I well remember many people declarations of satisfaction which came from the Tory right warning that if the UK did not join the euro the City immediately following Mr Cameron’s speech were disturbing for of London would collapse. But, of course, nothing those of us who are supporters of European engagement. like that actually happened. Mr Cameron’s speech had nothing to do with Britain’s place in Europe and everything to do with his leadership of a bickering On the European banking union, the first question and divided party. Tory leaders of the past who have had to fight to ask is: how important are these proposals, what are sections of their party over Europe have found it an unrewarding they about and what has given rise to them? I have to experience. Mr Cameron is fated to be among their number”. say that they do not address the real underlying problem, 1285 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1286 which is that of different levels of competitiveness, four countries left that are not participating, which is and the point made by my noble friend Lord Trimble, fairly unlikely, and three have already indicated that the risk of locking less competitive areas into permanent they are unlikely to participate. depression, which has happened in the deep south of Others have made the point—in particular, the America as well as in the south of Italy. The solution noble Lord, Lord Hamilton—about the lack of ECB to that is not necessarily internal devaluation, when accountability, which is crucial in a world of gold that is what I call gold standard austerity. In the big standard austerity. Rather cynically I make the point debate about what to do about the competitiveness that when people in southern Europe find that the issue, common banking supervision is somewhat funds from Germany are not flowing in transfer payments peripheral. in the way that is expected as the quid pro quo, that is To the extent that banking supervision is important going to become extremely difficult politically. The and relevant, I thought it was supposed to be getting ECB will have to make a real effort to make itself banks better regulated, with a view to the ECB managing accountable. Then you have the big issue as to whether the extent to which the ESM fund was used to bail out it is going to be accountable to national parliaments or banks where necessary. Now it seems we are being told to the European Parliament. I think that citizens still by Germany that that is not wanted and it has to be look much more to their national parliaments. sovereign states that bail out their banks when they I have not got a grain of criticism of the proposals, are in trouble and maybe the sovereign states will be which seem pretty sensible in the main. I see them, in helped by the ESM fund. That is entirely contrary to the future, rowing quite sensibly and practically—not the principle of trying to separate the problem of the negatively—in tandem with what we hope will be banks and the state rather than compounding the two much better banking supervision by the Bank of England problems. It is pretty important in terms of the underlying than we have had from the FSA. However, the real objective as to how this is going to be resolved. underlying purpose does not look as if it is being I have two more points about supervision. First, I addressed. It should provide a mechanism for managing am not entirely clear how much of the banking system bailout funds from the ESM for the banking system it is going to cover. It looks as if it will be only the but it does not look as if that is going to be on the large banks. There is a slight danger of moral hazard agenda. there. The German Landesbanken, the savings banks that control about ¤2,500 billion, seem not to be part 6pm of it, and lots of other smaller banks will be left to their local central banks. I make the point that I think Lord Desai: My Lords, I, too, join other noble others have made: Credit Anstalt, which started some Lords in thanking my noble friend Lord Harrison for rather nasty banking developments in the past, was a an excellent report. I shall not talk about either small bank. It is almost as important that small banks Mr Cameron or the UK but want to concentrate on are regulated well as for large banks to be regulated the banking union. One question I want to pose is why well. the eurozone members thought, in the middle of the crisis, that a solution to the problem was a banking When it comes to deposit insurance, as Martin union. If you think about the financial crisis, both the Wolf said when we interviewed him, Germany does US and the UK had a banking union—they were each not want to have to pay a penny more than it absolutely a single banking union—but it did not prevent a has to. I am rather doubtful that deposit insurance will collapse. Having a single banking regulatory authority, develop if there is a free-riding risk. You may have in our case the FSA, did not prevent the collapse. It is similar principles as to how it operates but I think it very good that structures are created but we ought to extremely unlikely that you are going to get a system ask whether those structures actually do the job they where each country in the eurozone is there to cover are supposed to do. the risks of the others. I remember in your Lordships’ House about two What about the UK and banking union? As we years ago, or maybe more, sitting in a discussion about were considering the first point, I was struck by how the European system of financial supervision. A huge considerably it reminded me of the Financial Services structure was set up for a banking authority, an insurance Bill, which we were debating here in Committee, and and occupational pensions authority, and a securities there was a quite extraordinary similarity between the and market authority. It is obvious that none of those proposals for the PRA as a sensible supervisor rather things helped when the crisis came—or they certainly than regulator of the banking system and the proposals did not make any impact in preventing anything that for what the ECB would be responsible for. Indeed, to happened. We are now adding another institution whatever extent there was open discussion, it is absolutely and, as noble Lords have pointed out, there will be clear to me that the two go hand in hand—nothing problems in respect of the overlap between the EBA wrong with that at all—and that the Bank of England and the ECB. will be sensibly collaborating with the ECB, as it has The basic problem here is that we are only slowly for a long time, in trying to get the best of banking understanding the nature of the euro, which, in a supervision both in London and on a pan-EU basis. sense, is a private currency. It is not a national currency, The point has been made, but it is important, about such as sterling or the dollar, where Governments have the extent to which the Government did a good deal in more control over money creation. Euros can be created terms of the voting powers for the EBA. It is the EBA only if the ECB is approached by a commercial bank that lays down the rules so it is pretty important. I that gives collateral, sovereign debt or something else, think it is probably reasonable. We have to have only and counterpart money is created. As the noble Lord, 1287 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1288

[LORD DESAI] see consolidation. I wish that we had fewer banks in Lord Flight, said, it is like a gold standard but without Europe than we have right now, because if you have the Californian or Australian mines suddenly adding got a single currency, why do you need so many more gold to the total supply. In particular, the strong different banks? It is not clear to me how the ECB will deflationary character of the euro was understood deal with the trickier problem of the dynamics of only when the crisis started. Until then, nobody quite consolidation, mergers and acquisition and still maintain understood what the euro was all about. It is a currency its authority as a regulator. for which there can be no democratic accountability, Where the issue will finally come to a head is in because the whole Maastricht treaty was designed, on whether banking union will help the recapitalisation the lines of the Bundesbank’s authority, to have the of banks which could possibly fail. When in June 2012 central bank immune from any democratic control, the proposal was made to speed up banking union, the which was thought to be the standard of monetary idea was that it would somehow make it easier to responsibility. recapitalise banks. As the noble Lord, Lord Flight, I think the ECB is a marvellous institution—right pointed out, there are difficulties about that, because now it is the only institution which is working at the we lack in the eurozone a genuine pooling of risk. eurozone level, and it did a splendid thing by having Governments are not willing, so far, genuinely to pool its outright monetary transactions authority save Spain risks. They would rather that each Government look from seizing up. However, we have to understand that after their local failing banks and recapitalise through we have created a currency in the eurozone which will issuing more sovereign debt, which the market may be permanently deflationary. Unless you break the not want to buy at any reasonable price. Maastricht treaty and allow the ECB to directly monetise If so, what happens to the larger banks which are sovereign debt, it will remain deflationary. being directly supported by the ECB? Who will bail As far as I can see, something miraculous will out the larger banks? We then go back to the national happen to our competitiveness, but, by and large for rule. I do not think that Deutsche Bank will fail, but if the next 10 years or so, the eurozone will be stagnant. it was about to, would that be Germany’s or the ECB’s It will be more or less a 0%-to-1% growth-rate economy. responsibility? Wouldthe money come from the European Let us remember that Napoleon looked at a map and stability mechanism? How will that be done? said, “There is China; there’s a sleeping giant; let it The banking union throws up a number of interesting sleep”. Well, that is going to happen to the eurozone. I issues. We are still in the early days. It is not at all clear am not a Eurosceptic—I am a great admirer of the to me that, having said, “Let us have a banking EU—but this is what we have constructed for ourselves. union”, all problems are solved. The problems of the Let us remember that, in the gold standard, you could banking union are just beginning. thrive only with extremely flexible labour and commodity As I do not want to speak for more than 10 minutes, markets; now, you cannot. all I can say is that I hope that the noble Lord, Lord As many noble Lords know, the EU is not a genuine Harrison, is there to give us the next report when single market as yet and we are still waiting for the things get worse—or better. Lisbon treaty recommendations on flexible markets to be implemented. In that context, a deflationary currency has a problem. One of the problems facing 6.10 pm the banking union, as the report quite properly points out, is that you cannot envisage the ECB looking after Lord Liddle: My Lords, I begin with two personal 6,000 banks. The ECB will look after the big players, points. First, I declare an interest in that the think especially those which have cross-border operations. It tank that I chair, Policy Network, has in the past will be like the Premier League—I think the previous received support from the City of London Corporation. speaker said something about the Premier League Secondly, it is a pleasure to welcome the noble Lord, council. The problem here is that you will have to be my brother-in-law, to the Front Bench opposite. Therefore, the national supervisory authority of those banks to there will not be an excess of partisanship on this concede power to the ECB. There will also be occasion on my part. macroprudential problems. Those large banks will As always, it has been an interesting debate, not also have connections with smaller banks within their least because of the final contribution from my noble own territory, which will then be supervised by their friend Lord Desai, which I am still trying to absorb. national authorities. It is not clear that co-ordination My noble friend Lord Harrison began the debate with between national authorities, which will be guarding an admirable summary of his report. As usual, one the smaller banks, and the ECB, which will be guarding wishes that the country was governed by the committees the larger banks—the hub-and-spoke idea that people of your Lordships’ House rather than by the prejudices are talking about—has been worked out as yet. You of its Executive, because we would be much better will therefore have to devise a set of engagement rules governed. It is an admirable report. between the various national regulators and the ECB, An interesting, rather off-the-wall point was made because, as far as I know, the national regulators need by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. It is something not legally be subservient to the ECB—they may be, on which I have long reflected: why is discussion of but they will not be. That is going to be a substantial Europe such a male-dominated subject? That is not problem. something that we should discuss at length today, but Along the way, in a deflationary climate, there we have to take it very seriously if the pro-Europeans might also be mergers and consolidation. Those 6,000 want any chance of winning a referendum, so thank banks will not remain 6,000 banks; we will probably you to the noble Baroness for raising that issue. 1289 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1290

I want to make three points. First, on the state of the single market. I also agree with the noble Lord, the euro itself, I believe that adjustment is on the way. Lord Flight, that it is global and very resilient but it Things are a lot better than they were. The question is has benefited a lot from the single market in Europe— whether what is occurring is socially and politically particularly from the opening-up of the financial single sustainable. I do not think that it will be without more market, a lot of which occurred under the previous fiscal flexibility. Nor do I think that it will be sustainable Labour Government. without considerable debt write-offs, particularly after Of course, no one worried about this at the time the German elections in September. There will have to because it was the era of light-touch regulation. No be an element of a transfer union to make the position one worried about the financial imbalances that were of the mezzogiorno of the south, which the noble building up between countries and the lack of cross-border Lord, Lord Trimble, mentioned, sustainable. That will regulation. Well, the banking crisis changed all that require further steps towards banking union, particularly and the Government recognised the need for regulation in the case of Spain, because there is such an obvious at EU level. It was a good thing that the Conservative link between bank debts and the sovereign debt position. Government, including Chancellor Osborne, accepted My second point is on the Britain in Europe debate. when they came in what Chancellor Darling had already Banking union is the fourth major institutional agreed to: the establishment of European regulatory development since the euro crisis started from which agencies. the United Kingdom has stood aside. There was the European stability mechanism, the euro-plus pact, the Lord Flight: Could I just make this point to the fiscal compact and now the banking union, which was noble Lord? The investment management industry, in agreed in principle in June 2012, and which the British which I spent 40 years of my career, has still failed to urged the eurozone to get on with. Indeed, I think penetrate the EU. There are a variety of cultural and George Osborne first recommended it as long ago as other barriers, but a lot of American firms came over January 2011. He was very foresighted about that, but thinking that Europe was like America and that all it is something from which we have chosen to stand they had to do was have offices. If one looks at how aside. much money the London retail funds business has got If you read what this is about, while in the British from the EU, it is still pitifully small. debate it is presented as a measure to rescue the single currency, in the continental debate it is about the Lord Liddle: I agree that things vary from sector to creation of what is called a financial market union. I sector but one of the reasons why so many foreign-based think the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, pointed that out. In banks are in London is because it is the financial the British Government’s view, this is all part of a centre of the single market. clear narrative in which the eurozone is integrating The point is that the banking crisis has changed the and we have to establish a new kind of settlement and way that we thought about the City. It has made relationship with the members outside it; that is the regulation absolutely essential. The euro crisis has British Government’s narrative. However, the real question made banking union essential in order to break the is: to whom does this narrative apply, other than the link between sovereign debt and the fact that nation United Kingdom? How many other euro-outs share states have had to underwrite their banks. It raises this conception of the British narrative? I might ask difficult issues for us in the UK. As long as we see the Government what their view of that is. ourselves as being outside the single currency, the That is a crucial point, first, in informing a view centre of the European financial market will be remote about the sustainability of the safeguards that the from the core of the banking union. There is also the Government obtained on the banking union in the block vote problem: if regulation is concentrated through December 2012 summit. Secondly, it is fundamental the ECB, we could be outvoted. to whether David Cameron’s essential assertion in his The UK made a disastrous attempt in 2011 to try to speech yesterday—that the core of Europe is the single tackle this problem of what to do. This was at that market—is right. For most members, however, will it year’s December summit, where a paper was circulated actually be the single currency? This point is fundamental late at night without prior consultation with anyone. because it is a question of whether we are going along Full of complex detail, it had at the top the horrible with the support of other euro-outs, to try to negotiate word “unanimity”. Basically it was asking for unanimity a balanced relationship between outs and ins, or whether on questions of financial services. Not only was this we are just making a case for special treatment for tactically maladroit, it was strategically misguided. If Britain, which will be far more difficult to negotiate. the sincere wish of the British Government is to The third point I want to make is about the position deepen the single market in the European Union, we of the City of London. These are not just intellectual cannot go around demanding unanimity on a specific exercises; we are talking about something that is UK interest, because every other member state will fundamental to our national interests. I have long demand unanimity on an interest specific to it. believed that the UK is overdependent on financial That is why the proposals of, for instance, the Fresh services and I support the whole concept of rebalancing Start group are extremely worrying. They do not the economy towards manufacturing. My noble friend demand unanimity but in cases of financial services Lord Mandelson’s comment was right; there has been they do demand use of the Luxembourg compromise too much financial engineering and not enough real and they talk about emergency brakes. If you believe engineering. I agree with all that. However, the City is in the single market, you cannot put forward such a crucial national interest and the financial centre of things in the European Union. I should like to hear 1291 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1292

[LORD LIDDLE] in the negotiations. Achieving a genuine economic from the Government that they have no intention of and monetary union and restoring stability within pressing for the Luxembourg compromise or emergency the eurozone will require a comprehensive set of brakes in this area. This would be so damaging to measures, including a single supervisory mechanism, Britain’s interests in pressing forward to the single market. risk mutualisation plans, such as mutualised deposit However, the Government achieved a notable success guarantees, a common fiscal backstop and a common in December with the acceptance of the double majority framework for rescuing eurozone banks. These measures principle. I agree with my noble friend Lord Davies of together will help to break the dangerous, and mutually Stamford that, for protecting our position, this is a lot destructive, link between indebted countries and unstable better than nothing. Yet I also agree with the noble eurozone banks by mutualising financial risk across Lord, Lord Kerr, who asks how robust this is and eurozone countries. whether it will last. The December Council meeting marked a significant First, this double majority applies only to the banking point in the negotiations to establish a single supervisory agency, which is about the implementing regulations, mechanism and, importantly, as we have been discussing, and not to ECOFIN, which draws up the legislation. the Council agreed a number of safeguards for the So we do not have a special position there. Secondly, single market which will ensure that neither the City the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is right that the ECB nor the UK will be marginalised. A number of noble will be the big player in this and the EBA a weakly Lords have referred to some of them, but I hope the staffed and resourced organisation. How do the House will not mind if I set out some of these protections. Government intend to deal with that? Thirdly, there is First, the ECB will have a duty to have regard to the the question of time limitation. How many euro-outs, unity and integrity of the internal market in performing which are actually banking union-ins, will there be? If its supervisory tasks. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said there are a significant number of euro-outs who will that that may not be a new duty, but it is quite helpful be banking union-ins, how long do we think that this to have it reiterated. Not only that, it will also be special double majority arrangement will last? subject to an obligation to ensure that no action, There are alternatives. I am not saying that this is proposal or policy of the ECB shall directly or indirectly what the Labour Party would propose but, as my discriminate against any member state or group of noble friend Lord Davies said, we have not had from member states as a venue for the provision of banking the Government a proper cost-benefit analysis of what or financial services in any currency. The ECB will the alternatives might be. Did they look at how, as a be required to agree a bilateral memorandum of euro-out, we might be a member of the banking union understanding with the UK—by which we mean the and whether it could be made to work? Could we have PRA—setting out how it will co-operate in discharging built on the model of the European Systemic Risk its supervisory tasks, so we can look forward to a Board, of which the president of the European Central constructive and collaborative supervisory dialogue Bank is chair and the Governor of the Bank of England underpinning the robust supervision of cross-border is vice-chair? Could we have used that as an umbrella? firms and activities throughout the EU. The way in The Government have a duty to look at all the possible which the supervisory authorities in the UK and the alternatives here because this is an issue of such vital EU work together now, not least the ECB and EBA, is importance to the future of the City. The fear that a through close, professional working. It is not done in lot of us have is that for reasons of ideology and the spirit of two mutually opposed forces coming prejudice, the UK has opted for very much a second-best, together on a day-to-day basis with different views. possibly a third-best, solution that would be gravely They are technicians, very often, trying to deal with damaging to our interests in the long run. I will be common, difficult, technical problems, and that has grateful to the Minister if he can deal with some of infused the discussions to date. these points. In December, there were two important decisions on parity within the single market, which mean that 6.25 pm the PRA and ECB will be operating on equal terms. Lord Newby: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, The Council agreed the principle that the ECB’s Lord Harrison, and the European Union Committee supervisory powers should be analogous to those available for the report and for the typically thorough work they under Union law to national supervisors in non- undertook before they drew up their proposals and participating member states. Powers and decisions of thoughts on the European banking union. As we the EBA, for example in cases of binding mediation in made clear before, we believe it is vital for the UK that the event of disputes between supervisors, will apply financial stability is restored to the eurozone, and equally to the ECB and other supervisors. So the ECB these proposals set out ambitious reforms to help has no special status. achieve that. Their potential impact is significant in Perhaps most importantly, as a number of noble the UK as well as in the eurozone, and it is important Lords have pointed out, the Council agreed that key that they are properly scrutinised and that the issues decisions in the EBA will be made by a double-majority they give rise to are properly debated. So I am grateful voting system. Therefore, although we hope that the for the committee’s efforts and for the chance to do EBA will continue to be driven by consensus, with just that today. votes very much the exception, the voting arrangements As noble Lords are aware, the Government support will ensure that all member states, whether or not proposals to establish a comprehensive banking union participating in the banking union, will continue to in the eurozone and have been engaging positively have a meaningful voice. In practical terms, where the 1293 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1294

EBA votes on a standard which applies to firms power to go in if there is a particular problem, where a throughout Europe, this will require the support of national supervisory body may be thought by the ECB those in the banking union and those outside it. Not not to be dealing with an issue adequately. only will the usual qualified majority apply, but a In that respect the noble Lord, Lord Flight, used majority of the group of non-participating member the analogy of the ECB’s role being a bit like the PRA states—which, of course, includes the UK—will also as opposed to the FCA in the UK. It is not a direct have to support any proposal. analogy but there are some relevant comparisons. We A number of noble Lords have expressed support think that the system we have set up will be robust. If for these protections. It is fair to say that even if the that is the case, in principle, the one being envisaged Council had not actually read the report of the committee here also should be. The problem is that it is a multiplication of the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, it did address a of the kind of problems that we had here when the number of the other issues raised in it. First, it clarifies crisis struck. When everything is going well, you can the scope of ECB supervision. It establishes robust make things work. But, here, we had a real problem governance arrangements in the ECB which separate with managing a financial crisis because two or three the performance of the ECB’s monetary policy and individuals could not make the system work. supervision tasks. These arrangements will also ensure We hope that we have changed the system to make that those non-eurozone member states which choose it less dependent on individuals but when you have a to participate in the SSM will have a voice in decision- system involving a minimum of 17 national supervisors making. We should not think that separating those and a super-supervisor, as it were, no one in their right two elements of what the ECB does is too difficult a mind would think that dealing with a crisis will be job. That is, broadly speaking, what we are going to be easy. In particular, by definition, no one will have been doing with the Bank of England, the PRA and the through it before, so they will be learning on the job. other bodies that we have just established here. It is That is an inevitable consequence of doing anything eminently doable. The way in which the EU and the new. The ECB is working very hard to put in place systems ECB are setting about doing it looks perfectly reasonable. which it hopes will be very robust in stressful times. The Council decision also confirmed that the EBA The noble Lords, Lord Flight and Lord Trimble, will ensure a geographical balance in its appointments. asked about what is happening next and whether the On this point I need hardly remind noble Lords that steam has gone out of the negotiations. We are very the UK plays a leading role in the EBA and currently confident that the steam has not gone out of the holds one of the six seats on its management board, negotiations in terms of the SSM. The Irish have got which is based in London. this as one of their top priorities during their presidency. While the Government are broadly content with the We are hoping that relatively soon there will be the outcome of the December meeting, noble Lords will final agreement on the regulation which will underpin be aware that negotiations are ongoing. However, I these changes. We hope that the SSM will be operational assure you that we are working hard to ensure that the by March 2014, which, in anyone’s view, is as quick as final agreement continues to reflect these points. As one could reasonably expect. for the next steps, negotiations concerning the recovery The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, was the first to and resolution directive are similarly active. I will raise the dread word “referendum”. He described it come back to those shortly. as new-fangled. I have very fond memories of the However, proposals relating to the second and third 1975 referendum. However, I remind him that the pillars of the banking union—the common resolution Government have legislated for referendums to take mechanism and the common deposit insurance scheme— place on European matters in the UK when significant have not yet been issued. We recognise that the decisions changes are due to take place. That was before the relating to the funding of any resolution mechanism Prime Minister’s speech yesterday. I am delighted that and deposit insurance scheme are politically difficult, next week the House will have the chance to spend particularly within participating member states, and considerable time talking about this matter; not least decisions relating to debt mutualisation and common because it enables me to say today that I am not going fiscal backstops are more difficult still. None the less, to talk about it because the House will have considerable in the context of a banking union for participating time to talk about it next week. As noble Lords can member states, the UK supports these concepts in imagine, that is a considerable relief. principle. Having said that, we cannot provide more Among other things, the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, detailed views until the proposals have been published, asked about the timetable on the recovery and resolution although of course we take note of the points that directive, which is obviously of huge importance for members of the committee have raised in their report the whole of the EU. Again, these are one of the priorities and today. of the Irish presidency, which is looking for an agreed On the specific points raised by noble Lords in their approach in the first quarter of this year. Member speeches, the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, was the first states, including ourselves, are actively and positively to raise the question of the concentration of power in engaged in these negotiations. We strongly support the ECB, which I have spoken about in part. As I have this timetable as it is essential that all member states said, there is an analogy with the Bank of England to need to get a common set of credible tools and powers a certain extent. For clarity, although there are 6,000 to deal with resolution and recovery as soon as possible. banks within the eurozone area, the ECB proposes to The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, was worried directly supervise on a continuing basis probably a about the male-dominated nature of the debate. I couple of hundred of them. However, it will retain the think that this gets back, in part, to the male-dominated 1295 European Banking Union: EUC Report[LORDS] European Banking Union: EUC Report 1296

[LORD NEWBY] The noble Lord referred, as I did in my introductory nature of the financial services sector, which will take remarks, to the importance of the MoU between the a long time to sort out. However, as other noble Lords Bank and the ECB. We agree with him that it is crucial have pointed out, on this subject, we have some extremely in setting the tone for the supervisory relationship. eminent female economists and knowledgeable women The Bank and the FSA are already working with their in your Lordships’ House. I hope that they will speak ECB counterparts and both sides, as it were, are keen in future debates. to ensure that we have a robust approach to supervision The noble Baroness referred to bond yields and of cross-border banks and cross-border financial services breaking the debt spiral. I think that I can give her activities. more than a glimmer of hope in terms of bond yields. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, was the gloomiest The bond yields of Greece, Spain and other countries voice in the debate. I would like to comment on two of under stress have fallen significantly. In Greece, they the points that he raised. The first was about accountability have fallen by one-third over the past two months. and the extent to which there is a democratic deficit. This is a very big shift in the right direction as far as The ECB is accountable to the European Parliament they are concerned. Bond yields now in the vast bulk and the European Council. National parliaments of of the eurozone, even among the difficult economies participating member states will be able to hold it to on the periphery, are at a sustainable level. account through questions. I think that for the foreseeable The noble Baroness referred to the financial transactions future national parliaments will play a larger role in tax and asked whether this could damage London. terms of the profile of the accountability than does The Government’s view is that we have no intention of the European Parliament, given its low profile. This joining the FTT. We do not believe that it will have a debate here is an example of the kind of thing that one deleterious effect on London, quite the opposite; however, hopes would be happening across the EU. I have severe doubts as to whether the FTT will ever The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, raised a raise anything like the funding that is envisaged for it. I number of issues and came up with three logical remind noble Lords that we already have our FTT in outcomes in terms of our supervision compared with the City on shares; it is known as stamp duty, so this that of the ECB: either we do what it says or it will be concept is not totally unknown to us. However, it has more or less strict—I paraphrase the noble Lord. That to be said that the City is very keen for us to abolish it is slightly misleading, given that we are working towards and believes that there would be significant economic a common rulebook. So the supervisory approach will benefits if we did so. be broadly common. For example, the recovery directive The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, as always, asked a is one way in which there will be a broadly similar number of very specific and penetrating questions. He approach across the EU, with or without the banking asked how many countries will remain with us in our union. “out” group, and what they have said so far. Their attitudes are, like ours, dictated by their domestic Lord Davies of Stamford: I am very grateful for the debates. Some have confirmed that they will not join Minister’s comments. Of course, the rules themselves— for now, some have confirmed that they are unlikely to such as those relating to liquidity ratio, capital ratios, join in the long term and others have said that they capital adequacy and so forth—will be set up by the intend to join at some point. However, given that the EBA, and there will be a common rulebook. However, eventual package is not known, we do not think that it supervision is about how strictly the banks’ activities is wise for us to give names at this stage because it are looked at, and that affects authorisation, licensing would be unfair to say that all those countries have and review of the asset quality of the banks concerned. formed an absolutely settled view about what they are In these areas potentially there will be very considerable going to do. As noble Lords say, if the number of scope for a difference of approach by different supervisors. “outs” falls, there will have to be a review and we are That is exactly what I meant by more and less strict confident that we will be able to secure a sensible approaches. voting arrangement going forward. However, we do not envisage that we will be in that position for some Lord Newby: To the extent that there will be, in considerable time, if at all. effect, two major supervisors—ourselves and the ECB—I think that the MoU will help in that respect. Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: I am very grateful to The noble Lords, Lord Dykes, Lord Flight and the noble Lord for giving way. Can he help me? In Lord Liddle, all talked about the role of London and the cases where countries have declared a position, what the impact of this will be. Undoubtedly for many will he write to me and set out what that position is? companies, particularly financial services companies, I drop my third question, which is: what is the Government’s the City is their entry point to Europe and to capital assessment of where those who have not declared are markets more generally. Regardless of whether they likely to go? However, my first two factual questions are successful in actually trading in Europe to the are the following. What are the public positions? Where extent that they want, that is undoubtedly the way it is there are public positions, will the noble Lord write seen. It is very important that we work extremely hard, and let me know what they are? as we go forward, to make sure that the single market is embedded and strengthened and that we protect the Lord Newby: Yes, of course. It will not be a City at the same time. I would love to have a long comprehensive letter in the sense that not all the debate with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, about the countries have expressed a position, as I said, but one future of the eurozone economy, but I fear today is or two have and we can collate those relatively easily. not for that. 1297 European Banking Union: EUC Report[24 JANUARY 2013] Green Deal Framework Regs 2013 1298

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, asked whether we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department had looked at being a member of the banking union. of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma): My The truth is that once we had decided that we were not Lords, the Government are today bringing before the going to join the euro, that was off the table. All House amendments to the Green Deal framework parties have agreed in recent years that joining the regulations. Wehave been further developing the framework euro is not for the UK at this time; sadly, that is where over the past few months, in readiness for the full we find ourselves. I agree with the noble Lord that launch later this month. This has resulted in a number there is a real problem about social and political of SIs being developed and laid before the House. consent for the austerity packages across the EU. These changes are necessary to optimise the legal Nevertheless, in some countries—Ireland is probably framework and are taking advantage of learning we the best example—there is a real sense of a corner have already gained. having been turned and major new foreign investment in that country, which suggests that foreign investors However, before we begin to debate, I would like to also think so. take the opportunity to speak about the Green Deal—the The Government support comprehensive banking transformational energy efficiency programme. I am union in the eurozone, and we will do what we can to delighted that it will be going live next week, unlocking promote its development while safeguarding the UK’s unprecedented opportunities for both consumers and role as a regional and global banking centre. We look businesses alike. The Green Deal will provide a stable, forward to being informed and influenced by the transparent and long-term policy framework which noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and his committee. consumers can trust and in which businesses can invest. It will allow consumers to pay for some or all of the 6.47 pm cost of energy-saving property improvements through Lord Harrison: My Lords, I thank all Members savings on their energy bills. The Green Deal can be who have spoken this evening in what I think has been used to lever in billions of pounds of private investment a stimulating and enlightening debate. I am very grateful to improve the energy efficiency of UK properties. It to the Minister for promising to write to us on those will empower small and medium-sized businesses to points that he has not had time to take up. At one enter a new market as well as offer consumers more point I began to worry when I was accused of being choice and innovation than before. There has already “genial” and “courteous”; but, on a lighter note, I been interest from industry in getting involved in the must say that I began to think of the power and Green Deal and it is exciting to see a steady stream of persuasiveness of our report when one noted Eurosceptic participants becoming approved and using the Green wandered into the Chamber and, so persuaded by Deal quality mark prior to launch on 28 January. what he heard, came and joined the Labour Benches. I will finish on two comments made by the noble We already have 462 installer organisations registered, Baroness, Lady Falkner, which the noble Lord, Lord and 2013 is already off to a flying start with local Liddle, identified. The first is the, perhaps, paucity of authorities playing an active role in helping to kick-start contributions from the distaff side of the House. I can our “go-early”initiative. The Government have supported tell the noble Baroness that the austerity seminar that this by providing £22 million to stimulate early demand our committee is holding next week will feature Vicky for the Green Deal in seven core cities and to help Pryce, not only to speak on financial services but also other local authorities drive energy efficiency-boosting to report on Greece. The other point made by the initiatives. Our cash-back scheme, worth £125 million, noble Baroness that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, launched on 14 January will reward households identified, which is hugely important, is that these taking early action to improve their properties through matters are not European; they are British and European. the Green Deal. Households making a number of Every report we ever write has a large section on how improvements could receive more than £1,000, and the United Kingdom will be affected by what is going £2.9 million will be spent on a communication campaign on within the European Union. It is time that we in that will help to build understanding and trust in the this House took these matters seriously and that we Green Deal. had debates at appropriate times for all Members of the House to respond. I close with that hope and I will now introduce the statutory instrument that thank everyone for contributing tonight. will form the basis of our discussion. We are making a small number of amendments to the Green Deal Motion agreed. framework regulations which, subject to the outcome of today’s debate, will come fully into force on 28 January Green Deal Framework (Disclosure, 2013. The framework regulations create an authorisation Acknowledgment, Redress etc.) regime to regulate the conduct of Green Deal market (Amendment) Regulations 2013 participants and ensure that consumers are protected. Motion to Approve They cover conditions that must be met when a Green Deal plan is established and how it should be disclosed. 6.50 pm The amendments we propose will make enhancements Moved By Baroness Verma to the Green Deal framework. We have increased the frequency of some reporting requirements from annually That the draft Regulations laid before the House to monthly for all Green Deal participants. These on 10 December 2012 be approved. include the number and value of plans, cancelled Relevant document: 15th Report from the Joint plans, and the number of resolved and outstanding Committee on Statutory Instruments complaints. This is to ensure that we can monitor 1299 Green Deal Framework Regs 2013[LORDS] Green Deal Framework Regs 2013 1300

[BARONESS VERMA] for her forecasts and assessments, and for us to pass compliance to protect customers without imposing comments, with constructive criticisms, on the likely undue burdens on business and to protect the reputation uptake outcome. of the Green Deal itself. The regulations regarding the energy performance Other changes enable us to streamline key processes. of buildings certificates are largely technical and non- We are improving the clarity of our complaints system controversial. They will help to make sure that information by defining when a complaint should be directed to following Green Deal plans is up-to-date and accurate. Green Deal assessors and when to the providers. Further Schedule 2 of the regulations lists the new monthly to ensure effective policing of activity in the market, reporting of information requirement for Green Deal Green Deal accreditation bodies have been added to providers. This will greatly assist in monitoring the the list of organisations that can report a breach of progress of the Green Deal and will provide necessary regulations by a participant to the Secretary of State. statistics for analysis. However, one of the most In addition, an important technical update is being controversial aspects of the Green Deal concerns made to the circumstances under which an energy cancellation charges and penalty charges for early performance certificate must be updated by the Green repayment. It is generally regarded as one of the key Deal provider or customer. These include where an parameters influencing the consumer’s final decision energy efficiency measure has been removed, where on whether to go ahead with a Green Deal plan. If the provider has changed and where the liability of the these charges are disliked completely or labelled bill payer to make payments has changed. This update disagreeable, it may well be that the Green Deal plan will ensure that customers and businesses have access may not be taken up. Why are reports regarding these to up-to-date energy efficiency information for their questions not part of the monthly requirements? Will property. the Minister clarify that paragraph 1(g) of Schedule 2, The regulations will help to improve the energy on page 7 of the regulations, which specifies, efficiency of homes across Great Britain, reduce our “the total number of green deal plans cancelled in the previous carbon emissions and, crucially, help households to month”, manage their energy bills. I commend them to the refers to plans already started? House. Perhaps I might suggest some additional reports, for example of the total number of Green Deal plans 6.55 pm proposed but not taken up. Another report could be of the total number of cancellation charges levied, together Lord Grantchester: My Lords, I thank the Minister with the average fee. On the issue of amounts repaid for her explanation of the regulations. As we have said early, covered in paragraph 1(f), could a requirement on previous occasions, Labour continues to support be included to monitor the number of early repayments the objectives of the Green Deal as a vital part of bearing charges, and the average charge? energy demand reduction and energy efficiency improvements for meeting greenhouse gas emission On the cancellations, it would also be useful to targets and achieving energy security and climate change know what element or measures in a Green Deal plan mitigation. of many actions were not going to be proceeded with. With little time before next Monday’s launch of the Does the Minister agree that this information may be Green Deal, the Government must react swiftly to critical in assessing consumer confidence? Will she urgent criticisms of the costs of the scheme to potential look at how this could be added to the regulations, consumers. Up-front charges, high interest rates for which, by convention, are not amendable? If she rejects finance, and penalties, are all increasing the reluctance this requirement, how does she propose that this of households to take up Green Deal plans. At a time controversial aspect will be monitored? Information of rising energy prices, falling living standards and must not just be for business-gathering purposes; it stretched budgets, the Government must not allow must also inform policy and help corrective action. scheme charges to undermine the confidence of consumers The Minister in the other place, in response to my in going ahead with very necessary home improvements. honourable friend Luciana Berger, said that penalty Not only would a successful Green Deal cut long-term charges could happen only when a Green Deal provider energy bills for households, it would reduce the nation’s would make a loss as a result, and that the onus is on energy demand and save the planet from excessive the provider to prove the case. Where is this in the carbon emissions. regulations? How will the provider make the case? To The amending framework regulations are accepted whom will the current consumer have a course? as part of the refining process to improve the operation Another controversial aspect concerns up-front fees. of the Green Deal, with provisions regarding energy When Labour raised the cost of assessments with performance of buildings certificates, reporting Ministers during the passage of the Energy Act in requirements for the progress of the Green Deal and 2011, Ministers replied that it was expected that companies provisions regarding enforcement. We expect further would not charge for assessments. However, from a amending regulations—I hope they will be few in Guardian newspaper report, it appears that Ministers number—as the Green Deal rolls out and experience is are wrong. Consumers will face charges of up to £150 gained. The Green Deal has been a long time in as an assessment fee, whether or not they take out gestation, and we will all welcome the official launch Green Deal plans. The report states that British Gas next week on 28 January. After raising a few points on will charge £99 for its experts to go into homes and the regulations, perhaps it would be an opportune judge what measures, such as fitting cavity wall insulation, time to reflect on the Green Deal and ask the Minister would be most appropriate for each property. Two of 1301 Green Deal Framework Regs 2013[24 JANUARY 2013] Green Deal Framework Regs 2013 1302 the companies contacted by the Guardian say that they The Minister in the other place mentioned that the would refund the full assessment fee or part of it if firm Freud had been retained. Does this mean that the works were carried out by them. Does the Minister Government did not go out to open tender for this accept the YouGov poll that found that 51% of consumers contract? concerned about up-front costs rated them the biggest obstacle to making energy-efficiency improvements to In previous debates we have all acknowledged the their homes? ambitious plan and the huge difficulties that the Green The third element of the regulations concerns Deal faces. Unlike a commercial operation, the improving the clarity of the complaints process by Government have to do their thinking aloud as they imposing sanctions and including the Secondary State make the regulations to set out the parameters on in the process, yet the regulations do not say what the which commercial companies must make this a sanctions are. Will the Minister clarify whether they success. However, this allows the Government to have been included elsewhere and that it has escaped hear when we offer advice and give warnings. I am me? It is important to know and agree what powers not sure that they are listening well enough when it and sanctions are being given to the Secondary State. comes to the influence of certain aspects of the take-up In a debate on these regulations in the other place, the of the Green Deal plans on consumers. We have Minister stated that he believed the expected cost to be debated previously the influence of the interest rate £335 per complainant to the ombudsman, and that the on whether consumers assess the Green Deal as a costs would be borne by the Green Deal provider. Will good deal. Against a bank rate of only 0.5%, 7%, or the Minister confirm this figure and say whether there even 6.9%, does not seem a good deal, especially would be any judgments at all whereby the cost or when it will, in effect, double the amount of some part of it ended up being paid by the complainant? repayment over a 25-year period. This is a completely different circumstance to a short-term payday loan Will the Minister clarify the process of consultation? and, like a mortgage, there is the security of the loan Were the measures in the regulations consulted on being advanced to improve property on a state-sponsored with the public in a discrete fashion and in a discrete scheme. consultation process? I have read the Explanatory Memorandum, which seems to suggest that the regulations In a debate on Monday, the Minister acknowledged have arisen from consultations and events generally that my honourable friend Luciana Berger was from November 2011, closing a year ago on 18 January right: we need a competitive interest rate. Today the 2012. Will the Minister please clarify? Sun has badged the scheme “Green plight—Flagship A few further considerations arise from the debate eco loans a ‘rip off’”. The Minister said that DECC on these regulations last Monday in the other place, and the Green Investment Bank are putting money and indeed the Minister has echoed those remarks. In into the Green Deal Finance Company. Can the noble his opening remarks, Greg Barker, the Minister in the Baroness tell the House how much the department is other place, said that things had already got off to a putting in and what this amount is being spent on? flying start in October with the Go Early initiative. Is Can she confirm that the Green Deal Finance Company this the initiative that resulted in just five assessments? is a not-for-profit body in response to government Is this the initiative that highlighted problems in the encouragement, and that the interest rate is subject to software for assessments? Will the Minister confirm government approval and will not be available elsewhere whether the Minister in the other place was correct to on the high street? Am I correct to expect confirmation state, as she indeed has done today, that £22 million of the interest rate tonight? had been provided to stimulate early demand in seven core cities? In the press release a figure of £12 million I have taken up a great deal of the House’s time but, was put forward. While a test or pilot is to be just prior to the launch of the Green Deal, perhaps I recommended, this seems to be a soft launch. Was may mention that there are further features still causing there a reason why the important city of Liverpool anxiety, such as the interplay between the Green Deal was excluded from this list? and the ECO, whereby any lack of uptake in the The Minister in the other place went on to speak Green Deal could become compulsory under the ECO. about the cashback scheme, worth £125 million, launched There are still also questions over the golden rule and on 14 January. I am surprised that this is a government possible mis-selling fears. scheme when, according to Ministers, “the market will I would like the Minister to answer as many as provide”, and other matters seem to be a commercial possible of the questions raised and not be sidetracked matter for the Green Deal Finance Company. Already instead into further reflections if her time is pressing. this scheme seems to have been amended. Can the Can she commit that her department will look at these noble Baroness confirm whether the £1,000 maximum issues and place any missing answers in the Library of level referred to has indeed been lifted and that, with a the House? If she has further time, it would be a useful budget of £125 million, it really is the early-bird moment just before launch to get the Minister’s future scheme? Will Liverpool be excluded from this? expectations on her department’s figures for take-up A third element in the opening remarks of the over the coming years, the number of future job Minister in the other place and of the noble Baroness creations and what will constitute success in her eyes concerned the £2.9 million budget for a communication for the Green Deal. campaign about public relations. The Minister in the other place admitted that it was not a huge amount in I am sure we will return again to these points and the scheme of things as it would be used in a focused others, such as the role smart meters could play, but I way. Can the Minister clarify what will be its focus? wish the Minister a successful launch next Monday. 1303 Green Deal Framework Regs 2013[LORDS] Green Deal Framework Regs 2013 1304

7.08 pm can link the rest of the work that we have been doing with our core cities to the £22 million referred to by Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the noble Lord. He referred to the fact that a newspaper for his very warm welcome of the Green Deal. I expect had reported that it was £12 million. We have given he will be by my side when the launch goes ahead next out £12 million to seven core cities; we expect Liverpool Monday. The invitation is there for the noble Lord to to be added to the list of core cities. That is the join me, as it is for the noble Baroness. £12 million, but another £10 million was also provided The noble Lord has posed a huge number of questions to local authorities outside the core cities to promote and I have tried to note down as many as possible. demand—hence the £22 million. However, the likelihood is that I may have to write to The noble Lord spoke about the expectation of job him on some of them. creation. We are very positive that this will generate up I shall start by responding to the noble Lord’s point to 60,000 jobs in this sector, up from the 26,000 that about high interest rates. As he will be aware, the rate are in place at the moment. We see this as a very is to be set by the Green Deal Finance Company and positive scheme. I have listened very carefully to the no doubt will reflect a safe and competitive level. The noble Lord, who has, by and large, welcomed what we rate has not yet been confirmed, but I expect that to be are doing with the Green Deal. done in the next day or so. The noble Lord will have to The noble Lord asked about the assessment costs. wait just a little longer for a response to that question. This is a market-based mechanism and we expect a However, I take on board his point that the rate has to range of models to develop. Some providers may offer be competitive. That fits in with our wish to try to assessments that have no upfront costs; others may ensure that we meet the golden rule, which he rightly charge, but it will be up to individuals whether to go raised—namely, that no bill payer should pay more with the first assessment or to shop around. This is than what he or she is currently paying. That is absolutely something that all consumers do anyway. We encourage the right way to look at this. shopping around so that the consumer gets the best The noble Lord asked about early repayment penalties. deal possible. Perhaps I can reassure him that we have also looked The noble Lord asked about the sanctions that the closely at these. I can tell him that the repayment Secretary of State could impose. Of course, this very formula and the penalty compensation payback are much depends on the circumstances. There could be a based on the consumer credit legislation that is in financial penalty on the provider, a compliance notice, place, and we are not doing anything different from or the withdrawal or suspension of authorisations for what is already in the marketplace. providers, assessors or installers. There are a number The noble Lord asked about the forecast for take-up of safeguards that the Secretary of State has the rates of the Green Deal. I would say to him that it has power to use. been very promising and there is a great deal of The noble Lord also asked whether Freud interest in it. However, as he recognises, we are proceeding Communications was appointed through competition. with a soft launch because we want to ensure that The simple answer is yes, there was a competition. people understand what the Green Deal is and that all Freud was the preferred bidder. the systems needed to deliver it are fully tested and in The noble Lord asked a number of other questions place. The noble Lord is right to say that when the that I physically was not able to note down. I am sure Green Deal is taken up, many households will see a that the officials in the Box will have taken note of great difference in their energy consumption and it them. On those, I ask the noble Lord to allow me to will impact on their energy bills—something which I write to him and put a copy in the Library. Overall, know, like me, he is keen to see come down. going through my own list of what I was able to note The noble Lord asked about monthly reporting, down, many of the points the noble Lord raised have and we agree that this is an important element. The been answered. I thank the noble Lord for his warm industry and providers have also welcomed it. He welcome of this SI and I commend— listed a number of other things that he would like to see included on the monitoring list. I may have to take Lord Grantchester: I thank the noble Baroness for those queries away simply because I was not able to attempting to answer so many quite detailed questions write down all his points quickly enough. I shall read at very short notice. While we have this opportunity the report and come back to him with details of what before the Green Deal is launched, perhaps I can is already part of the monitoring that has been put in tempt her to reflect and share with us how her department place. views success—what does success of the Green Deal On the point about whether a householder who look like? That would be really interesting to understand takes up a case will have their costs attached, I can before it starts on Monday. assure the noble Lord that that will not be the case. If a complaint is lodged, it will be dealt with by the Baroness Verma: My Lords, if I had a crystal ball I providers, and through DECC we will find ways of would be able to tell the noble Lord lots of things. My ensuring that a householder is not penalised. own view is that, having talked to consumer groups The noble Lord mentioned the £125 million provision and the industries within the sector, this is going to for early take-up; the cashback facility. We are expecting revolutionise the way in which people think about how keen interest and we think that the £125 million for to make their homes much more energy-efficient. It is early take-up is a good way of encouraging people to about raising awareness. While we are rolling this out, take advantage of the scheme very early on. Perhaps I we are very keen to ensure that consumers take control 1305 Green Deal Framework Regs 2013[24 JANUARY 2013] Green Deal Framework Regs 2013 1306 and have responsibility over what happens in their On that note, if I have satisfied the noble Lord, I own properties. This approach is much more holistic. commend these regulations to the House. It is not just about short-term planning on, say, loft insulation; it is about looking at the whole property. I Motion agreed. think consumers will be quite encouraged that this will be a long-term gain for them and their properties, and of course on their bills. House adjourned at 7.19 pm.

WS 79 Written Statements[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Statements WS 80

I have consulted local government to develop the Written Statements details of this grant to maximise the impact of this Thursday 24 January 2013 funding, so that it reflects the challenges faced by local authorities and has a transformative effect on adoption services. Details of the formulae and allocations will Adoption: Funding be sent to authorities shortly. Statement I am also pleased to announce a new £1 million grant to the Consortium of Voluntary Adoption Agencies The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools to enable it to pump-prime local voluntary adoption (Lord Nash): My honourable friend the Parliamentary agencies to recruit more adopters. This grant will be Under-Secretary of State for Children and Families available from February 2013 and will make it easier (Edward Timpson) has made the following Written for agencies to take more innovative and collaborative Ministerial Statement. approaches to adopter recruitment. Taken together, Today I am launching a new adoption strategy and these measures should have an immediate impact on announcing a package of funding for the adoption the capacity of the system to recruit and approve the system. adopters so urgently needed. Further Action on Adoption describes the national Adoption can give some of the most vulnerable and crisis in adopter recruitment and puts forward the disadvantaged children in our society a far better Government’s proposals for addressing it in the short chance of successful outcomes as they grow up. We are and long term. Copies of this document have been implementing a broad programme of reform to help placed in the House Libraries. The number of children ensure that all children for whom it is appropriate are approved by the courts for adoption has been rising adopted as swiftly as possible. We now need urgently steeply, with no comparable increase in the number of to find more adopters to meet the needs of the growing adopters approved. We have identified some significant backlog of children waiting for adoption and we need structural weaknesses that undermine the effectiveness to provide them with effective support to help them do of the adopter recruitment and approval system. These so. Today’s announcement will support short-term weaknesses must be addressed swiftly and decisively in action and longer-term systemic change to help achieve the interests of a significant and sustainable increase that objective. in the number of adopters. We are therefore proposing to take a new legislative power at the earliest opportunity. Airports: Heathrow This would allow the Secretary of State to require Statement local authorities to seek approved adopters from other organisations. Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Minister If necessary, we will use that power to reform the of State for Transport (Simon Burns) has made the adopter recruitment system. However, we recognise following Ministerial Statement. that this is a radical step. If local authorities are able Today I am announcing that the Government’s trial to bring forward alternative proposals that would of operational freedoms at Heathrow Airport will be deliver a similarly radical shift in the system’s capacity, ending a month earlier than scheduled, on 28 February then we will not need to use this power. 2013. We want to see the system reformed for the long As the availability of the freedoms was staggered term, but we need short-term action too for children during phase two, the early completion to the trial will in the system now. So today I am announcing that the be achieved by bringing forward specific tests scheduled £150 million Early Intervention Grant topslice, which the for the final month of the trial into February, which Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government will accommodate the space left behind by the early confirmed in announcing the local government settlement morning arrivals freedom being inoperable during the for 2013-14, will be returned in full to local authorities trial period. in the form of the adoption reform grant. This funding I have sought advice from the UK’s aviation regulator, will help to secure reform of the adoption system. The the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), which is overseeing adoption reform grant will be in two parts. £100 million the trial and has confirmed that the rescheduling of of the £150 million will not be ring-fenced and will be these tests will not affect the quality of the evidence available to local authorities to support adoption reform. obtained. The revised end date will enable the overall It will enable local authorities to target funding at the analysis of the trial to begin sooner and support the entire adoption process and the specialist support children Government’s objective, as announced in the Autumn need. They will retain the discretion to use this funding Statement, to bring forward the consultation and final to address their highest priority needs, such as the decisions by Ministers on whether an operational freedoms major backlog of children waiting for adoption. regime of some form should be adopted on a more The remaining £50 million will be ring-fenced. It permanent basis at Heathrow. I will make a further will support local authorities to address structural announcement on this in due course. problems with adopter recruitment, particularly the uneconomic fee that local authorities are charged for EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council adopters approved by other authorities, which is lower Statement than that charged by voluntary adoption agencies. It will also help in the search for adopters willing and The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord able to take children who are more difficult to place, McNally): The informal Justice and Home Affairs and so tend to wait longer for new homes. (JHA) Council was held on 17 and 18 January in WS 81 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 82

Dublin. My right honourable friend the Secretary of assistance and advice. The presidency concluded that State for Justice (Chris Grayling) and my honourable the security situation in the Sahel/Mali would be discussed friend the Minister of State for Immigration (Mark at the March JHA Council with a focus on security Harper) attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. issues arising for member states. The following items were discussed. Next there was an update from Bulgaria on the The first plenary session of the interior day focused Bourgas attack in July that killed five Israeli tourists on migration for growth. The Commission supported and a Bulgarian bus driver. The UK highlighted that if the presidency’s paper noting the legal instruments the Bulgarian evidence suggested the military wing of currently being negotiated and the forthcoming legal Hizballah was behind the attack, the EU must consider migration directive on students and researchers. The the designation of Hizballah’s military wing under the UK outlined successful efforts to reduce net migration EU’s common position 931 terrorist asset-freezing coming to the country whilst attracting the brightest regime. and best, including in the student sector. A number of Justice day began with the Commission presenting member states highlighted the need to ensure effective their package on insolvency, which forms part of their matching of migrants to jobs, tackling abuse and Justice for Growth Programme. They stated that the support for national populations to fill skill shortages. broadened scope would assist companies across Europe Next, Greece updated the council on progress on its having greater access to a second chance. The European action plan on asylum and migration. Greece reiterated Parliament supported the proposal and the idea of the need for European solidarity in this area. The partial harmonisation of insolvency law. The UK Commission stood ready to assist Greece, but asked supported the proposals as being the type of measure that all member states consider how they could contribute. that would support the functioning of the single market The UK noted the improved border management at measure and the objective of allowing business a the land border with Turkey but also the significance second chance when they fall into difficulty. of the task. The UK committed to look at what more The presidency invited the head of the Irish Criminal could be done and invited others to do the same. The Assets Bureau to present on Ireland’s proceeds of presidency concluded that implementation of the action crime act and the Criminal Assets Bureau information plan should now be of the highest priority and that exchange function. The presentation majored on the the council would return to the issue. importance of civil procedure in asset confiscation. During lunch Ministers received an update from The council then discussed three issues relating to key agencies on the situation in Syria. Delegations data protection: the household exemption, the right to expressed concern and continued to emphasise the be forgotten, and sanctions. The Commission explained importance of protection being provided in the region. the working of the regulation on all three points and On 21 December the UK announced £15 million in argued that the right to be forgotten was not incompatible new humanitarian funding for the crisis, bringing our with the freedom of expression and that processing for total contribution to £68.5 million. journalistic or historic purposes was specifically allowed. The UK supported a broader household exemption In the plenary session on internal security and than in the Commission proposal and advocated the growth Europol noted citizens were coming into closer use of a risk-based approach. The UK also supported proximity with organised crime as the black economy appropriate deletion rights for data subjects, but voiced grew. The latter had an impact on competitiveness. concern about unachievable expectations in the right Europol would assess this in the next serious and to be forgotten and felt that the starting point should organised crime threat assessment. Europol was, in be the current directive. The UK thought national particular, seeking to mainstream its financial intelligence supervisory authorities should be given greater discretion capacity and encouraged member states to do the in deciding sanctions. The UK called for the text to same. The Commission noted the importance of tackling return to Ministers before any mandate with the European money laundering and seizing criminal profits and Parliament was agreed in council. Many member states drew attention to: the directive on the confiscation of expressed support for the direction of work proposed assets, the 4th money laundering directive, the directive by the Irish presidency, including a broader household on the protection of financial interests (PIF), and the exemption, a more practicable implementation of the upcoming anti-corruption package. Member states right to be forgotten and a simpler and flexible sanctions generally supported the presidency’s analysis of the regime. links between internal security and economic growth. Over lunch the presidency highlighted the need to Next the presidency explained its intention to hold address racism and xenophobia at political level inviting an annual national Missing Persons Day on 4 December. the Fundamental Rights Agency to present on their This would be complementary to the International latest reports. Missing Children’s Day held in May. The presidency said they would write to colleagues to seek views as to whether this should become an EU Missing Persons Planning: Change of Use Day. Statement The presidency scheduled an additional item to discuss the emerging situation in Algeria following the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department taking of hostages at an Algerian gas plant the previous for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): day. The UK said that the Government were very My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for concerned about the situation and were in constant Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) contact with BP and the Algerian Government, offering has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 83 Written Statements[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Statements WS 84

The coalition Government believe that a swift and Once local planning authority requests for exemption responsive planning system is vital for delivering have been considered, the regulations for the new sustainable development. We want to promote the use permitted development rights will be bought forward. of brownfield land to assist regeneration, and get There will be a tightly drawn prior approval process, empty and under-used buildings back into productive which will cover significant transport and highway use. Using such previously developed land and buildings impacts and development in areas of high flood risk, will help us promote economic growth and still ensure land contamination and safety hazard zones. that we safeguard environmentally protected land. Getting redundant agricultural buildings back into use Mary Portas’s review called for the Government to As part of the 2011 Growth Review we undertook ease the rules surrounding change of use. We agree. to review how change of use is handled in the planning We are therefore increasing the scope of permitted system. We ran a consultation, “New opportunities development rights in order to facilitate growth. for sustainable development and growth through the reuse of existing buildings”, in July 2012. Commercial to residential Following that consultation, I can confirm that in In April 2011, we ran a consultation, “Relaxation order to help promote rural prosperity and job creation, of planning rules for change of use from commercial agricultural buildings will be able to convert to a range to residential”, which sought views on introducing of other uses, but excluding residential dwellings. There permitted development rights for change of use from will be a size restriction and for conversions above a commercial to residential uses. Following that consultation set size, a prior approval process will be put in place to we included a policy statement within the National guard against unacceptable impacts, such as transport Planning Policy Framework to promote change of and noise. use. Flexibility for business uses To enhance flexibility in the planning system, which Complementing this policy change, in the Written can be vital when a quick response is necessary to Ministerial Statement of 6 September 2012 (Official support business growth, we will increase the thresholds Report, col. 34WS) I announced the introduction of for permitted development rights for change of use permitted development rights to enable change of use between business/office (B1) and warehouse (B8) classes from commercial to residential purposes. These new and from general industry (B2) to B1 and B8 from permitted development rights build on the policy set 235m2 to 500m2. out in the National Planning Policy Framework and will encourage developers to bring underused offices Getting empty town centre buildings back into use back into effective use as houses for local residents. To create opportunities for new and start-up businesses and help retain the viability and vitality of our town The new permitted development rights allow change centres, we will allow a range of buildings to convert of use from B1(a) offices to C3 residential. They will temporarily to a set of alternative uses including shops provide badly needed homes for local people and will (A1), financial and professional services (A2), restaurants make a valuable contribution to easing our national and cafes (A3) and offices (B1) for up to two years. housing shortage. By bringing underused offices back We will continue to keep the operation of the use into effective use they will also help create jobs in the classes system under review to ensure it is as flexible as construction and services industries, and help regenerate possible and promotes sustainable development. We our town centres and former commercial areas. These are working to amend regulations as soon as possible new homes will bring a greater resident population to and will publish a detailed summary of responses to our high streets, increasing footfall and supporting the consultation shortly. A copy of the associated local shops. chief planner’s letter has been placed in the Library of In line with best practice on public policy, there will the House. be a sunset clause limiting the changes to three years and a review of the benefits from the policy at that Railways: New Stations point. This will provide Parliament with the opportunity to extend the policy indefinitely should it wish. Statement We recognise that, as with all permitted development Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary rights, there may be unique local circumstances that of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin) has made should be taken into account. The chief planner is the following Ministerial Statement. today writing to local planning authorities giving them I am pleased to inform the House that Network the opportunity to seek a local exemption where this Rail is launching today the New Stations Fund, which can be justified on economic grounds. will help towards the capital cost of opening brand We will only grant an exemption in exceptional new railway stations in England and Wales. circumstances, where local authorities demonstrate This fund will provide up to £20 million of additional clearly that the introduction of these new permitted funding to projects that are ready to be brought quickly development rights in a particular local area will lead into use for the benefit of passengers and the economy. to (a) the loss of a nationally significant area of The Government are committed to improving the economic activity or (b) substantial adverse economic railways. Opening new stations can provide a boost to consequences at the local authority level that are not the economy and deliver longer-term benefits through offset by the positive benefits the new rights would improved access to the rail network and better connectivity bring. for passengers. WS 85 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 86

Proposed new stations must already be at an advanced Finally, £65 million will be invested in our excellent stage of development and be supported by the local research campuses, with a further £50 million in authority, train operating companies and Network transformative equipment and infrastructure to maintain Rail. The £20 million fund will contribute towards the the excellence of our research base. cost of scheme construction, but bidders must also In addition to this £600 million of capital funds, have available a portion of funding towards the project EPSRC are using existing budgets to make a £350 million themselves. investment in a new generation of centres for doctoral Applications for funds will be assessed by a cross- training. This is important as without highly skilled industry panel. Because this fund is designed to support individuals in the workforce it will be impossible to station proposals that are already well developed, we bring innovative products and services to market. expect bids to be received by the end of February I have also launched today a £1 million competition 2013, with a recommendation from the panel before funded by the Technology Strategy Board that will the end of March 2013. accelerate the development of robotics and autonomous systems in the UK.

Annex : Table showing Breakdown of £600 million Autumn Statement Science and Research: Funding investment in science and innovation* Statement Big data & energy-efficient £189m computing Synthetic biology £50m The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Regenerative medicine £20m for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger Energy storage £30m of Leckie): My right honourable friend the Minister of Advanced materials £45m State for Universities and Science (David Willetts) has Robotics and autonomous £35m today made the following Statement. systems I am today setting out our plans for spending Research campuses £65m £600 million as part of our commitment to an industrial Transformative equipment and £50m strategy for growth. infrastructure We have a broad, world-class science and research National Composites Centre £28m base in this country and this is clearly demonstrated in Pharmavision £38m the Research Councils’ impact reports, which are being Advanced Metrology Lab £25m published today. These reports illustrate the benefit to National Space Technology £25m the economy and to society of the funding that we Programme provide for science and research every year. Total £600m * We identified eight key technologies to invest in, figures in bold are new announcements on 24.1.2013. consulting with the research community and the Technology Strategy Board. To support these, the Sport: Legacies Chancellor announced £600 million of funding, mainly for capital investment, in his Autumn Statement. We Statement have already announced how £28 million of this capital funding will be used to fund the National Composites Centre, and £108 million will support the life science Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My right honourable strategy through £38 million for the national biologics friend the Minister for Sport and Tourism (Hugh industry innovation centre, £20 million for regenerative Robertson) has made the following Statement. medicine and £50 million for synthetic biology. I would like to update the House on progress with Today I am announcing details of how the remaining delivering the Government’s 10-point sports legacy funds will be allocated. action plan (my Statement of 18 September 2012). This plan is a key part of the wider Olympic and £189 million of that funding will support big data. Paralympic Legacy programme being delivered by We will allocate a further £25 million to the highly Government and their partners. successful National Space Technology Programme. Since my last report, the December 2012 Active £45 million will support new facilities and equipment People Survey has reported that 15.5 million people in areas of UK strength in advanced materials including aged 16 and over are playing sport at least once a week. in high-performance alloys and low-energy electronics. That is 750,000 more than a year ago and 1.57 million In addition £35 million will create centres of excellence more than when London won the Olympic and Paralympic in robotics and autonomous systems in and around bid. universities, innovation centres, science parks and enterprise sites. Elite Sport £30 million will be allocated to create dedicated Elite funding R&D facilities to develop and test new grid-scale In December, UK Sport announced £347 million energy storage technologies. £25 million will build the funding to support our Olympic and Paralympic athletes advanced measurement laboratory, which will be a prepare for the Rio 2016 Games. This is an overall state of the art laboratory for cutting-edge measurement increase of 11% on the funding available for London research run by the National Physical Laboratory in 2012 (5% increase to Olympic sports and 43% to Teddington. Paralympic sports). This record investment of Exchequer WS 87 Written Statements[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Statements WS 88 and Lottery funding will be used to achieve our ambition Youth Sport Strategy (Whole Sport Plans) to become the first host nation to win more medals at Sport England announced their £493 million whole the next Games. sport plan funding package for national governing World class facilities bodies, which will be used to continue to drive up The Olympic Park was handed over to the London participation, particularly among young people, and is Legacy Development Corporation (LLDC) on given on a payment-for-results basis. 27 November 2012. Good progress is being made on They have launched the following strands of the the transformation of the site. strategy: £40 million Community Sport Activation In preparation for the re-opening in July 2013, six Fund for community organisations, charities and local of the eight park venues already have new operators in authorities; £25 million College Sport Makers scheme, place. The LLDC has approved a deal between iCITY, putting sport organisers into colleges; and £6.9 million the preferred bidder for the long-term lease of the Get on Track, the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust initiative press and broadcast centre, and BT, which will become to help disadvantaged young people develop life skills the anchor tenant, using the facility to house its new though sport, £5 million Get Healthy, Get into Sport BT Sport channels. The project is expected to generate to improve participation amongst those currently least around 250 jobs as part of iCITY’s plans to turn the active. buildings into a world-leading technology cluster, creating 100 new satellite clubs, which bridge the gap between around 4,000 jobs. playing sport in school and in local community clubs, have been created, bringing the total to around 450. An agreement was signed this month between the ODA and Moirai Capital Investments for the relocation Door Step Clubs are working with StreetGames to of a shooting enclosure from the Royal Artillery Barracks create sustainable clubs for young people in disadvantaged in Woolwich, where it was used during the Games, for areas. They are currently in a £0.5 million pilot phase, use by the Paignton Rifle Club within a proposed due to report in March. sports development for Torbay Council. Join In Further information on the relocation of other relocatable Join In will be receiving additional funding in 2013 structures will be included in my next update. to encourage people to participate in local sport and volunteer in their community, and will soon be announcing Major sports events their plans to build on the success of last year’s 6,000 Since the Games, the UK has already successfully events. delivered: School Sport UCI World Track Cycling Cup (Glasgow)—2012; School Games and As of 15 January, 16,028 schools had registered to Gymnastics World Cup (Glasgow)—2012. take part in the Sainsbury’s School Games. In November, Since my Written Statement of 18 September, we over 1,500 schools were rewarded with a School Games have won the right to host the following major sports kitemark (70 of which were gold-level awards) in events in the UK: recognition of their commitment to increasing school BWF Premier Super Series Badminton (Birmingham) sport and competition. Sheffield will host the next —2013; national finals in September 2013. FINA Diving World Series (Edinburgh)—2013; In November, School Games athletes from across the UK competed in the Brazilian School Games, Canoe Slalom World Series (Cardiff)—2013; winning 24 medals—16 of which were gold. Gymnastics World Cup (Glasgow)—2013; PE/school sport Wheelchair Tennis Masters (London)—2014-16; The Department for Education is responsible for and school sport policy and is currently working on plans IPC World Athletics Championships (London)— to improve school sport further. DCMS is working 2017 closely with the DfE to ensure our plans leave a lasting Community legacy of the London 2012 Games. An announcement is expected in due course. Places People Play Disability Sport Legacy Sport England has increased the funding for Places Disability sport People Play by £15 million to £150 million. The number of disabled people playing sport has Further investments include: another new large-scale risen from 1.32 million in 2005-06 to 1.68 million in multi-sports facility, bringing the total to 13; a further 2012. The 2012 figure is 65,000 higher than last year. 310 community sports facility projects, bringing the Paralympic funding was increased by 43%, to a total to 1,042 (exceeding the 1,000 target 12 months record £70.2 million. In addition, 40 NGBs have detailed ahead of schedule); and a further 54 playing fields plans to make sport a practical choice for disabled have been protected and improved, bringing the total people. Each of them will have specific targets to get to 163. more disabled people taking part. An additional 16,786 sport makers have been recruited, In December, Sport England announced grants bringing the current total to 38,957. totalling £10.2 million from its Inclusive Sport Fund The Sportivate programme has given 140,555 young to 44 disability sport projects. In addition, the £1 million people the chance to try new sports, an increase of Active Kids for All initiative was launched, promoting 41,686 since September. the inclusion of disabled children in PE and sport WS 89 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 90 within mainstream schools by training PE teachers, An interim evaluation report produced by Ecorys, and the Battle Back Centre in Lilleshall was opened to published in November 2012, gives some very promising help the recovery of injured service people. indications of the success of International Inspiration, A Paralympic Legacy Advisory Group has been which has: established to help drive Paralympic legacy forward trained 124,896 individuals as practitioners across and champion integrated Paralympic/disability-related 20 countries, including 28,530 young leaders; legacy work across the Government and GLA’s legacy programme. created 180 safe spaces for sport in five countries; International development and Work to bring together the International Inspiration overall, engaged and reached at least 11 million Foundation (IIF) and International Development through children and young people. Sport (IDS) charities is progressing as planned. The first meeting of the new merged charity is due to take I will continue to provide quarterly updates to the place in February. House on progress with delivery of this plan. WA 241 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Answers WA 242 Written Answers Embryology Questions Thursday 24 January 2013 Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Apprenticeships full-time equivalent staff are currently employed by Question (1) the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, (2) the Human Tissue Authority, (3) the Medicines Asked by Lord Addington and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a (4) the Health Research Authority; and what is comprehensive guide for those with dyslexia and the planned establishment for each in the year other special educational needs wishing to take an 2013–14. [HL4508] apprenticeship qualification is available; and, if so, where the guide is published. [HL4763] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The information requested is shown in the following table: Baroness Garden of Frognal: The National Apprenticeship Service provides advice for those with dyslexia and Current number of Planned FTE other special educational needs wishing to take an Full-Time establishment for apprenticeship, and its website has a section about Body Equivalents (FTE) 2013-14 learners with learning difficulties or disabilities including Human Fertilisation 62 64 2 resources and case studies. & Embryology Other resources are available on the LSIS Excellence Authority 1 Gateway. Resources include a dyslexia starter kit: Human Tissue 43.4 44.4 4 3 http://www.excellencegateway.org.uk/dyslexia-starter- Authority 6 kit and a resource pack: Raising Aspirations: Creating Medicine & 945 1,283 Healthcare Products opportunities to enable more young people with LDD Regulatory Agency 5 to access Apprenticeships: http://www.exellencegateway. Health Research 124.6 134 8 org.uk/node/23469. Authority 7 Notes: 1. Source of information, the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Civil Service: Redundancy Authority. Question 2. This figure reflects the budgeted number of full time equivalent staff in 2013-14. The HFEA it is currently carrying Asked by Lord Laird vacancies. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to 3. Source of information, the Human Tissue Authority. the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Saltaire 4. A business critical post of Regulation Manager currently being advertised. on 19 December 2012 (WA 307–8), whether the 5. Source of information, the Medicine & Healthcare Products administrators of the principal Civil Service Pension Regulatory Agency. Scheme can extrapolate and accumulate the numbers 6. The increase reflects the transfer of the National Institute for and annual costs of civil servants made redundant Biological Standards and Control from the Health Protection each year; and how the Cabinet Office assess the Agency to the MHRA on 1 April 2013. efficacy of making civil servants redundant in the 7. Source of information, the Health Research Authority absence of that information. [HL4609] 8. Addition reflects a new function in relation to ethics and confidentiality. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: It is for individual Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough departments to effectively manage their resources so as to remain within their budgets. As each department To ask Her Majesty’s Government on how many is responsible for meeting the costs of any redundancy occasions in (1) 2010-11, (2) 2011-12, and (3) 2012-13, compensation to be paid to their staff it is right, and the chief executives and chairs of (1) the Human appropriate, for them to assess the efficacy of making Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, (2) the any of their employees redundant in the light of their Human Tissue Authority, (3) the Medicines and business needs and financial situation. The Cabinet Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, and (4) the Office exercises oversight of the operation of the Civil Health Research Authority, formally met to discuss Service Compensation Scheme so as to ensure that integrated regulatory pathways; and what was the departments are operating within scheme rules. This outcome of each meeting. [HL4509] does not extend to monitoring the numbers of staff departing under the scheme. Earl Howe: All four bodies maintain regular contact The role of the scheme administrator appointed by at different levels. These discussions have included the Cabinet Office is to calculate and pay compensation issues relating to the regulatory pathway between the in accordance with the scheme rules, and ensure that respective organisations. the full costs are charged to departments. It is then for The number of formal meetings, involving the chairs individual departments to report these costs in their and/or chief executives of the Human Fertilisation resource accounts each year. and Embryology Authority (HFEA), the Human Tissue WA 243 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 244

Authority (HTA), the Medicines and Healthcare products the National Research Ethics Service, as part of Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and the Health Research HRA, has memoranda of understanding with both Authority (HRA), at which these issues were discussed, the HTA and the MHRA; is shown in the following table: the HRA chief executive is a member of the European Union Clinical Trials Revision Steering Group with Bodies 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 MHRA; HFEA & 333the HRA chief executive also chairs the new HRA HTA UK Collaboration and Development Steering Group HFEA & --22 (which the chair also attends). The group includes 1 HRA membership from HFEA, HTA and MHRA; and HFEA & --- MHRA the HRA and MHRA are members of the Medical HTA & See 2012-13 See 2012-13 23 Devices Steering Group and the Clinical Trials HRA1 Collaboration Steering Group. HTA & --- Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool MHRA MHRA & See 2012-13 See 2012-13 64 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to HRA1 the Written Answers by Earl Howe on 8 January Notes: (WA 22–3), whether the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) code of practice 1. The HRA was established as a special health authority on 1 December 2011 and its chair was appointed on 12 June 2012. currently requires all clinics to give women seeking treatment any applicable information about the 2. This includes one occasion where the HFEA chief executive attended a meeting of the HRA Steering Group. possible side effects and risks to the woman being treated and any resulting child, including ovarian 3. Meetings since the current HTA chair was appointed in January 2010 and the current HTA chief executive was appointed hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS); and, if so, in September 2011. (1) when that requirement was first included in the 4. The chief executive of the MHRA (or the director of policy HFEA code of practice, and (2) what guidance the acting as his deputy) attended six meetings of the HRA Steering HFEA has provided to clinics regarding how all Group between December 2011 and July 2012. relevant data about such adverse outcomes should Source: Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, Human be obtained without monitoring patients, particularly Tissue Authority, Medicines and Healthcare Products whenever a treatment cycle has not been abandoned. Regulatory Agency and Health Research Authority. [HL4534]

Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology There have been a number of positive outcomes Act 1990, as amended, requires centres licensed by the that have integrated the regulatory pathways though Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) collaborative working. Some examples of this are: to provide patients with such relevant information as the HTA has carried out joint inspections with the is proper before providing treatment services. The MHRA and has also issued joint position statements HFEA has advised that it provides clinics with guidance on advanced therapy medicinal products and held regarding what this information should include, which joint training events to ensure that regulation in is outlined in its code of practice. This includes information this area is enabling. The HTA coordinates any about the possible side effects and risks to the woman relevant notifications of serious adverse events and being treated and any resulting child, including ovarian reactions with the MHRA; hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS). The code of practice has, since its first edition, there are four centres that use human embryos to advised licensed centres to provide people seeking derive embryonic stem cell lines for human application treatment with information about the possible side that need to be regulated by both the HFEA and effects and risks of the treatment to the woman and the HTA. In addition there are five centres that any resulting child. Guidance regarding information store ovarian tissue for potential human application; provision specifically about OHSS was first included these centres also have to be regulated by both the in the third edition, which was issued in 1995. HFEA and the HTA. In both of these areas both The HFEA has advised that its current guidance bodies are working closely to ensure a single regulatory on OHSS and incident reporting can be found on approach on guidance and inspection. A joint working its website at: www.hfea.gov.uk/docs/2011_OCT_27_ protocol and memorandum of understanding have adverse.pdf. also been drawn up; the HFEA and HRA have developed a memorandum Government Departments: of understanding in relation to the assessment of Catering Facilities applications from research bodies to receive identifying information held on the HFEA’s register of fertility Question treatments, patients and offspring; Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours the Integrated Research Application System (IRAS) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Board is chaired by the HRA chief executive. The cost of the subsidy for catering facilities in the MHRA and HFEA are represented on the board as Whitehall offices of (1) HM Treasury, (2) the Foreign IRAS partners (HFEA since June 2012); and Commonwealth Office, (3) the Home Office, WA 245 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Answers WA 246

(4) the Department of Health, (5) the Department Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Departments with dedicated for International Development, (6) the Cabinet Office, HR staff will oversee the demands and requirements (7) 10 Downing Street, (8) the Ministry of Defence, for training from Civil Service Learning. A capabilities (9) the Ministry of Justice, and (10) the Department plan will be published in due course containing further for Education. [HL4661] information on key priorities for building the capability of the civil service. Publication of the plan is unlikely Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Cabinet Office estate, to change these responsibilities. including 10 Downing Street, does not subsidise its catering facilities. Health: Accident and Emergency My department does not hold information relating Departments to other government departments’ catering facilities. Question Government Departments: Publications Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the level of closures of NHS Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark accident and emergency departments across the United Kingdom. [HL4768] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Department for Transport produces a staff magazine. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department [HL4728] of Health (Earl Howe): This information is not collected centrally. The reconfiguration of urgent and emergency Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport and its care services, including accident and emergency agencies produce a number of staff magazines in the departments, is a matter for the National Health Service interests of good internal communications. The majority locally. What matters is that strategic decisions are are electronic publications produced in-house to reduce taken at the appropriate level, that service change is costs and paper consumption. clinically driven, and that patients and the public are The table below gives the titles and frequency. involved in the process.

Department/Agency Magazine Frequency Health: Oesophageal Doppler Monitoring Central Department a2c (electronic) monthly Driving Standards None Question Agency Asked by Lord Walton of Detchant Driver and Vehicle Licence (electronic monthly Licensing Agency with small print To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they run) will expedite the availability of oesophageal Doppler Highways Agency Major Project News monthly monitoring during surgery in the National Health (electronic) Service, in the light of advice from the National Our TMD monthly (electronic) Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. NDD News every other month [HL4663] (electronic) Communications every other month The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Chronicle of Health (Earl Howe): Oesophageal Doppler monitoring, (electronic) along with other National Institute for Health and Maritime and Coast to Coast monthly Coastguard Agency (electronic) Clinical Excellence (NICE) approved fluid management Vehicle Certification Nuts & Bolts monthly monitoring technology, has been chosen as a high Agency (electronic) impact innovation for the National Health Service. It Vehicle and VOSAlink weekly is for individual commissioners, working with their Operator Services (electronic) providers, to determine when and where they should Agency be used in line with NICE guidance. The NHS Technology Adoption Centre has produced a technology adoption pack, generically labelled “Intra- Government Departments: Training Operative Fluid Management”, which includes clarity Question on the competing technologies in the marketplace, together with the evidence that supports their use. Asked by Lord Norton of Louth To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on Health: Pathology 9 January (WA 97), who will be responsible in each Questions government department for determining the training Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon needs of civil servants pursuant to Section 3(6) of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment until such time as a capabilities plan is published. they have made in terms of any increase or reduction [HL4489] in (1) costs, and (2) time from blood taking and WA 247 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 248

testing to receiving results, of the proposals to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department move pathology services from Southend and Basildon of Health (Earl Howe): The Department has made no hospitals to Bedford Hospital. [HL4492] such assessment. However the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has published ToaskHerMajesty’sGovernmentwhatrepresentations medical technologies guidance on the CardioQ-ODM they, the regional health authority and NHS Midlands oesophageal Doppler monitor. This guidance is available and East have received in response to the proposals on NICE’s website at: www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/ to move pathology services from Basildon and Southend 13312/52624/52624.pdf hospitals to Bedford Hospital. [HL4493] Higher Education: Student Enrolment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question of Health (Earl Howe): Information about the cost and time implications of the proposals to move pathology Asked by Baroness Brinton services from Southend and Basildon hospitals to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Bedford Hospital are not collected centrally. Decisions students in England studying (1) full-time, and about the local configuration of pathology services (2) part-time, are aged (a) 19–21, (b) 22–24, and are for local National Health Service commissioners. (c) 24 and over. [HL4705] We are aware that the Royal College of Pathologists has supported the decision making process in the East Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Higher Education of England region by giving advice on all the bids Statistics Agency (HESA) collects and publishes data submitted to NHS Midlands and East. on student enrolments at English higher education We understand that the preferred bidder for the institutions (HEIs). Latest statistics on higher education Basildon and Southend areas is currently working enrolments by age and mode of study, for the academic with all trusts in the area to finalise how the service year 2011-12 are provided in the table. will operate. Although it is intended that the service will be provided under a hub and spoke model, the Student enrolments (1) from all domiciles by age (2) and mode of study. location of hubs and spokes for this area is yet to be Academic year 2011-12 confirmed. English Higher Education Institutions The Independent Review of NHS Pathology Services Age Full-time Part-time Total in England, chaired by Lord Carter of Coles, undertook Aged 18 and 192,665 11,950 204.615 an extensive cost and activity data collection and under analysis exercise in order to establish a robust evidence Aged 19 to 21 705,180 44,310 749.490 base on which to found its recommendations. The Aged 22 to 24 255.715 68.995 324.710 review forecast that up to £500 million could be saved Aged 25 and 270.280 547.345 817,625 through consolidation of NHS pathology services into over managed networks. Not specified 30 760 790 All decisions on how service changes will be Total 1,423.870 673,360 1097,230 implemented are for local determination. Nevertheless, Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student these changes are vital to the NHS. The current pathology Record. arrangements are unsustainable and, in light of the Notes: robust evidence available, commissioners will be seeking Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population high quality services that represent best value for and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so money. components may not sum to totals (1) Enrolments refers to students in all years of study Ministers’ offices have received no representations (2) on this subject. A search of the department’s ministerial Age refers to age at the start of the academic year correspondence database has identified two items of correspondence received since 12 December 2012, when Hillsborough the preferred bidders to take forward the new community Question pathology services across the East of England region were announced. This figure represents correspondence Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool received by the department’s ministerial correspondence To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to unit only. Information about representations received the comments by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on by the local NHS is not collected centrally. 11 December (Official Report, col. 1027) that further documents relating to the Hillsborough disaster of 1989 had been discovered, what is in those documents; Health: Surgery where they were held; when their existence was discovered; who discovered them; and whether they Question will be made public. [HL4155] Asked by Lord Walton of Detchant The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): I met the noble assessment of the impact of oesophageal Doppler Lord on 16 January and the Bishop of Liverpool, in monitoring during surgery on complications, patient his capacity as the Home Secretary’s adviser on outcomes and the length of hospital stays.[HL4662] Hillsborough, was also present. It was explained that WA 249 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Answers WA 250 there are a limited number of documents in this category Israel and with the Bishop of Liverpool’s agreement these have been catalogued within the Home Office and are Question being made available to the IPCC. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Baroness Warsi on 19 December House of Lords: Members’ Allowances (WA 316–7) concerning Israel’s nuclear facilities, Question what measures are available to persuade Israel to co-operate with the International Atomic Energy Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours Authority. [HL4592] To ask the Chairman of Committees what was the average daily total claim per member attending The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities the House of Lords in (1) 2009–10, (2) 2010–11, and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth (3) 2011–12, and (4) the first quarter of 2012–13. Office (Baroness Warsi): Israel is an active member of [HL4528] the International Atomic Energy Agency, and committed to its objectives, in particular Article 2: to seek to The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): The accelerate and enlarge the contribution of atomic energy average daily total claim per member attending the to peace, health and prosperity throughout the world. House of Lords was: Israel is not, however, a signatory to the non-proliferation 2009-10—£270; treaty. Accordingly it is under no legal obligation to 2010-11—£284; agree to a full scope comprehensive safeguards agreement 2011-12—£281; and with the International Atomic Energy Agency. first quarter 2012-13—£287. The Government have regular dialogue with the These figures include travel costs and other costs Government of Israel on nuclear issues, support the claimed under the Members’ finance scheme, full details objective of a weapons of mass destruction-free zone of which can be found at www.parliament.uk. in the Middle East and encourage Israel to participate in discussions to that end. House of Lords: Members’ Attendance Question Justice: Non-payment of Fines Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours Question To ask the Chairman of Committees what was Asked by Lord Laird the average daily attendance in the House of Lords in (1) 2009–10, (2) 2010–11, (3) 2011–12, and (4) the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the first quarter of 2012–13. [HL4527] Written Answer by Lord McNally on 17 December 2012 (WA 270–1), what is their estimate of the cost The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): The of proceedings for failure to pay a television licence average daily attendance for the periods in question is fee in 2011; which of the options for reform of the given below. The figures exclude attendances at Select system of enforcement published in Swift and Sure Committee meetings, which do not relate directly to Justice: the Government’s Plans for Reform of the sitting days. Criminal Justice System they consider likely to be efficacious; and whether they have recently considered Period Average daily attendance the compliance of punishment for failure to pay 1April 2009 to 31 March 2010 397 such a fee with human rights standards. [HL4680] 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 451 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012 492 The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord 1 April 2012 to 30 June 2012 488 McNally): The Ministry of Justice does not collect data on the cost of proceedings for specific offences in House of Lords: Staff Pay magistrates’ courts and therefore is not able to estimate the cost of proceedings for failure to pay a television Question licence fee in 2011 with sufficient reliability within the Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours time and cost available. To ask the Chairman of Committees what grades Paragraph 122 of the White Paper on Swift and or other classifications of staff employed by the Sure Justice outlined the Government’s thoughts on House of Lords have been subject to a pay freeze in reform of TV licensing enforcement. We are continuing each of the past three years. [HL4505] to examine the efficacy of the various measures. When the Communications Bill was introduced to The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): Senior- Parliament in 2002, the terms of the statement signed band staff have been subject to a pay freeze since April under Section 19 of the Human Rights Act demonstrate 2009. All other staff were subject to pay freezes in that the Government were of the view that the enforcement 2010-11 and 2011-12, except for those earning less regime for TV licensing complied with the European than £21,000 pa who received an increase of £250 on Convention on Human Rights. That view has not basic pay in each of those years. changed. WA 251 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 252

NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups Population Movement Question Question Asked by Lord Warner Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of clinical commissioning groups have been authorised the findings of the Electoral Commission’s November by the NHS Commissioning Board; and how many 2012 report Continuous Electoral Registration in remain to be authorised. [HL4738] Northern Ireland that, “changes of address are the key change that needs to be managed by the registration The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department system”, and that “continuous registration is not of Health (Earl Howe): A total of 211 aspiring clinical keeping pace with population movement in Northern commissioning groups (CCGs) have applied to the Ireland”, whether they will set out the average rates NHS Commissioning Board (the board) for authorisation. of population movement in Northern Ireland in The board is authorising CCGs in four waves. Thirty-four comparison with (1) England, (2) Wales and CCGs were authorised and established in the first (3) Scotland. [HL4394] wave in December 2012, and 67 have been authorised and established in the second wave in January. The remaining 110 aspiring CCGs are preparing for Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested authorisation in February and March. falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Glen Watson, Director General for ONS, NHS: Foundation Trusts to Baroness Hayter, dated January 2013. Question As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Asked by Lord Warner Parliamentary Question asking in the light of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government which NHS findings of the Electoral Commission’s November trusts that are currently the responsibility of the 2012 report Continuous Electoral Registration in Northern NHS Development Agency have been passed to Ireland that changes of address are the key change Monitor for approval as foundation trusts; which that needs to be managed by the registration system’, of those have been approved or rejected by Monitor; and that -continuous registration is not keeping pace which NHS trusts are scheduled for submission for with population movement in Northern Ireland’’, whether approval to Monitor in 2013; and which NHS they will set out the average rates of population movement trusts are no longer expected to be approved as in Northern Ireland in comparison with (1) England, foundation trusts by April 2014. [HL4737] (2) Wales and (3) Scotland. HL4394 A measure of population movement based on this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department definition can be derived for local authority areas in of Health (Earl Howe): To date, the NHS Trust England and Wales from the ONS’s Mid-YearPopulation Development Authority (TDA) has referred no foundation Estimates. The table below contains the relevant data. trust (FT) applications to Monitor. NHS trusts are It shows that an estimated 5.5% of the population of required to submit their plans for 2013-14 to the NHS England at mid-2010 had moved out of their local TDA for sign off by the end of March 2013. Any plans authority area (to elsewhere in England, elsewhere where the trajectory to achieve FT status is not deliverable in the UK, or to another country) by mid-2011. The or credible will not be signed off by the NHS TDA. corresponding percentage for Wales was 4.0%. Further discussions between the local NHS trust and Similar measures for Scotland and Northern Ireland the TDA will then take place. would be a matter for the respective statistical authorities.

Table 1: Population Movement: England and Wales, 2010-11 Other within-UK International “Population Movement” (Total Population at Mid- Internal Migration within flows from area Emigration from area migration outflows as a proportion of 2010 area 2010-11* 2010-11** 2010-11 starting population)

England 52,234,045 2,464,094 102,795 301,012 5.5% Wales 3,0006,430 53,161 54,590 11,232 4.0% Source: ONS

Ports Earl Attlee: Information is not held centrally in the form requested. It would normally be better to address Question detailed enquiries of this kind directly to the port—in Asked by Lord Fearn this case, Peel Ports and/or Liverpool City Council. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Some related figures can be found in the Department passenger liners have anchored in the Mersey in for Transport’s port statistics at: www.gov.uk/government/ 2011 and 2012; and how many have stayed for more uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/10102/ than two days in that port. [HL4651] port0601.xls. WA 253 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Answers WA 254

In this table, a total of 140 ships in the category Railways: High Speed 2 “passenger vessels” is shown to have called at Liverpool in 2011. This includes cruise vessels but is predominantly Question passenger ferries. Other passenger-carrying ships could Asked by Viscount Astor be included in the “ro-ro” and “other” categories. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the (1) top speed, and (2) average speed, projected for trains on the HS2 London to Birmingham route. Railways: East Coast Mainline [HL4585] Question Asked by Lord Bradshaw Earl Attlee: HS2 Ltd is continuing to finalise the design of the infrastructure but the aspiration is to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans have a top-speed capability of 249 miles per hour they have for improving the journey times on the (400 kph) in the longer term. The line is intended to east coast main line. [HL4613] open with services at a maximum speed of 224 mph (360 kph), but in many sections such as tunnels and urban areas it will be less, leading to an anticipated Earl Attlee: The Government recognise the importance average running speed for services on the HS2 London of the east coast main line in linking Scotland, the to Birmingham route of 205 mph (330 kph). north-east, Yorkshire and eastern England with London. A total of £428 million (in 2012-13 prices) is currently being invested in a series of schemes designed to improve capacity and performance on this critical Schools: National Curriculum route. A further £240 million of funding has been allocated to the route for enhancement expenditure Question between 2014 and 2019 on schemes that improve capacity Asked by Lord Northbourne and reduce journey times. The rail industry will be working together to determine how this funding is To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they spent. plan to publish their proposals for the new curriculum New rolling stock under the InterCity Express of all subjects to be introduced from September programme will enable reductions in journey times, 2014; whether this curriculum includes the new and the first of these trains are due to enter revenue curriculum for personal social and health education service on the east coast main line during 2018. (PSHE); and, if not, when the PSHE syllabus will Continued improvement in service quality is a key be published. [HL4683] objective for the current operator, East Coast, and will be for the next intercity east coast franchise, the timing of which will need to be determined in light of Richard The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools Brown’s independent review of the rail franchising (Lord Nash): We will be publishing our proposed new programme. national curriculum for consultation very shortly. The In the meantime, the Department for Transport will separate PSHE review has been extended to take account be working with East Coast, Network Rail and others of the outcomes of the national curriculum review. We to ensure that the Government’s substantial investment will set out our proposals for PSHE in due course. in the east coast main line delivers real benefits for passengers, striking an appropriate balance between journey time, reliability and other potential improvements. Schools: Ofsted Question Railways: Heathrow Airport Asked by Lord Northbourne Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government (1) how many, Asked by Viscount Astor and (2) what percentage of, (a) primary schools, and (b) secondary schools, achieved each Ofsted To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they grade in the last year for which figures are available. have plans to promote a rail link between Heathrow [HL4684] Airport and the great western main line. [HL4587]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools Earl Attlee: The July 2012 high-level output (Lord Nash): This question is a matter for Ofsted and specification asks the rail industry to develop and, the Deputy Chief Inspector, Education, Children’s subject to business case and agreement of terms with Services and Skills, John Goldup. He has written to the Heathrow aviation industry, deliver a new western the noble Lord, and a copy of his response has been rail access to Heathrow Airport. placed in the House Libraries. WA 255 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 256

Schools: Teachers trainees eligible for a bursary award in this year. In AY 2012-13 new tuition fees were introduced which Is why high value Questions bursaries were introduced to acknowledge the academic achievements of the trainee and their potential to teach. Trainees Asked by Lord Storey must have at least a 2:2 to access a bursary in a shortage subject, chemistry, physics, mathematics and modem foreign languages, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support and at least a 2:1 for non-shortage subjects. they offer to teachers who consider leaving the profession. [HL3978] Syria The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools Question (Lord Nash): The Government are not the employer of Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool the teaching workforce in our schools. We expect schools and local authorities as the employers of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment workforce to provide appropriate levels of pastoral they have made of the situation of minorities in and professional support to teachers who are considering Syria; and what discussions they have had with leaving the profession. opposition groups in that country about safeguarding The Government have set out to make teaching a minorities from jihadist attacks. [HL4630] more attractive career, encouraging outstanding individuals to stay in the profession. We have put teachers back in The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities charge of the classroom with powers to deal effectively and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth with poor pupil behaviour. We are slimming down the Office (Baroness Warsi): The situation in Syria continues national curriculum and reducing bureaucracy so that to deteriorate, inflicting a heavy cost on the country’s teachers have professional autonomy to determine population, including its minority groups. how to teach. We are also reforming pay so that heads There are credible reports and video footage of have more flexibility to reward good teachers. Giving human rights abuses and sectarian attacks by armed heads greater freedom over the way they deploy their opposition fighters in Syria, which we utterly condemn. teachers also affords them greater flexibility in adapting We urge all opposition groups to observe human working conditions to respond more effectively to rights and international humanitarian law norms. local and individual circumstances. As the Secretary of State for Foreign and Asked by Lord Storey Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), said To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many on 10 January (Official Report, col. 483), he has urged trainee teachers were awarded (1) tuition fee loans, the leadership of the Syrian National Coalition (SNC) (2) bursaries, (3) School Direct bursary top-ups, to show a clear commitment to human rights and and (4) scholarships, in the last five years. [HL3980] international humanitarian law, including the protection of all religious communities and unfettered and safe access for humanitarian agencies. The SNC has stressed Lord Nash: The number of applicants on initial their intention not to repeat the violations of the teacher training courses domiciled in England and the Assad regime. EU (outside UK) and who were awarded tuition fee loans was 22,800 at 9 December in academic year We regularly meet representatives and members of (AY) 2012-13. The equivalent figures in previous minority groups and we continue to encourage the academic years were 23,600 (in AY 2008-09), 28,600 SNC to reassure all Syrians that they are working (in AY 2009-10), 25,900 (in AY 2010-11) and 21,100 towards a Syria which is democratic, inclusive, (in AY 2011-12). representative, respectful of its ethnic and religious minorities and which adheres to international human In the past 5 years a total of 99,652 trainees recruited * rights conventions. We remain resolute in our support were eligible for a training bursary award . This breaks of the Syrian people’s demands for a peaceful and down by academic year as follows: AY 2008-09 23,534, democratic transition to a more open society, one that AY 2009-10 25,114, AY 2010-11 24,240, AY 2011-12 respects the rights of all its citizens, Allawite or Sunni, 5,992 and AY 2012-13 20,772. Christian or Kurd. School Direct was introduced in academic year 2012-13. In order to be eligible for a bursary top up, a trainee must spend the majority of his or her time at a Taxation: Income Tax school that has 25% or more of their students eligible Questions for free school meals. This data will not be available Asked by Lord Greaves until February 2013 and I have asked my officials to write to you then with this information. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Scholarships for trainees in physics, run in partnership employed persons in the current year do not earn between DfE and the Institute of Physics, were introduced enough to pay any income tax in the United Kingdom, in AY 2012-13. A total of 105 scholarships were England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and awarded. each English region respectively; what proportion * Subjects that attract bursaries and amounts payable change of the number of employed persons in each area from year to year to reflect Government policies and priorities. this represents; and in each case what proportion of In AY 2011-12 the number of subjects that attracted a bursary such people are (1) women, (2) under the age of 25, award was reduced hence the reduction in the numbers of and (3) over the age of 55. [HL4515] WA 257 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2013] Written Answers WA 258

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their These estimates are based on the Family Resources estimate of the number of employed persons in Survey data for 2010-112, projected to 2012-13 and 2013-14 who will not earn enough to pay any 2013-14, using economic assumptions consistent with income tax in the United Kingdom, England, Wales, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s December 2012 Scotland, Northern Ireland and each English region economic and fiscal outlook. respectively; what is their estimate of the proportion Estimates of the proportion of adults in employment of the expected number of employed persons in or self-employment with employment income at or each area that that will represent; and, in each case below the personal allowance who are aged under 25 what proportion of such people are expected to be or aged over 55 are not available at the national and (1) women, (2) under the age of 25 , and (3) over the region level, due to small sample sizes. [HL4516] age of 55. 1 Figures are rounded to the nearest 100,000 and whole percentage points The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 2 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2010_11/frs_2010_11_report.pdf Deighton): The following table sets out the available estimates for the number of adults in employment or Territorial Army and Reservists self-employment with employment income at or below the personal allowance in 2012-13 and 2013-14 by Question country and region. Asked by The Countess of Mar

2012-13 2013-14 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what protection as % as % exists for continuity of employment, pension and all % all % 1 service rights for members of the Territorial Army Thousands employed female thousands employed female and reservists who are required to present their P45 England 4,300 18 63 4,900 20 64 forms when called upon for military duty, in view of North 200 18 64 200 21 65 the fact that a request for a P45 from an employer East would normally indicate termination of a contract North 600 20 58 700 23 59 [HL4512] West of employment with that employer. and Merseyside Baroness Garden of Frognal: The Government take Yorkshire 500 19 64 500 22 66 the continuity of employment and pension and service and the Humber rights of members of the Territorial Army and other East 400 19 65 500 22 66 reservists as a matter of great importance. That is why Midlands they are provided with legal protection of their civilian West 400 19 63 500 22 64 employment through the Reserve Forces safeguard of Midlands the Employment Act 1985. East of 500 18 68 500 19 69 England This gives the reservist the right to be reinstated in London 500 15 61 600 16 60 the same job in which they were employed before they South 600 16 64 700 18 63 were mobilised or, if it is not reasonable and practicable, East to be re-employed by their civilian employer in the South 500 21 64 600 24 64 most favourable job and on the most favourable terms West and conditions to the reservist. Wales 200 19 58 300 23 60 Scotland 400 17 68 500 19 68 Regarding the protection of pensions, reservists are Northern 100 17 62 100 19 63 eligible to become an active member of the Reserve Ireland Forces pension scheme (RFPS) when mobilised under United 5,100 18 63 5,800 20 64 the Reserve Forces Act 1996 or a corresponding power Kingdom in the Reserve Forces Act 1980. When at the mobilisation centre they make a choice and complete a declaration The Government have announced the largest ever that they wish to have the period of permanent service cash increase in the personal allowance, from £8,105, counted under the RFPS, or to remain in any civilian in April 2012, to £9,440 in April 2013. The percentage occupational or personal pension scheme or to join of the United Kingdom adult working population the state second pension. with employment income below the personal allowance Members of the Reserve Forces are asked to report is estimated to rise from 18% in 2012-13 to 20% in to the mobilisation centres with either a P60 or P45 2013-14. (not solely a P45), whichever is relevant, to confirm As a result of all changes to the personal allowance their civilian earnings and, if required, their employment made by the Government since 2010, 2.2 million status. This document can also be used to assist in the individuals under the age of 65 will have been taken administration of any financial assistance award that out of income tax by 2013-14. they or their employer may claim.

Thursday 24 January 2013

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Adoption: Funding...... 79 Planning: Change of Use...... 82 Railways: New Stations ...... 84 Airports: Heathrow ...... 80 Science and Research: Funding ...... 85 EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 80 Sport: Legacies ...... 86

Thursday 24 January 2013

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Apprenticeships ...... 241 Israel...... 250

Civil Service: Redundancy ...... 241 Justice: Non-payment of Fines ...... 250

Embryology ...... 242 NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 251

Government Departments: Catering Facilities...... 244 NHS: Foundation Trusts...... 251

Government Departments: Publications ...... 245 Population Movement ...... 252

Government Departments: Training ...... 245 Ports ...... 251

Health: Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 246 Railways: East Coast Mainline ...... 253

Health: Oesophageal Doppler Monitoring ...... 246 Railways: Heathrow Airport ...... 253

Health: Pathology...... 246 Railways: High Speed 2...... 254

Health: Surgery...... 247 Schools: National Curriculum ...... 254

Higher Education: Student Enrolment...... 248 Schools: Ofsted ...... 254

Hillsborough...... 248 Schools: Teachers...... 255

House of Lords: Members’ Allowances ...... 249 Syria ...... 256

House of Lords: Members’ Attendance...... 249 Taxation: Income Tax ...... 256

House of Lords: Staff Pay ...... 249 Territorial Army and Reservists...... 258 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL3978] ...... 255 [HL4505] ...... 249

[HL3980] ...... 255 [HL4508] ...... 242

[HL4155] ...... 248 [HL4509] ...... 242

[HL4394] ...... 252 [HL4512] ...... 258

[HL4489] ...... 245 [HL4515] ...... 256

[HL4492] ...... 247 [HL4516] ...... 257

[HL4493] ...... 247 [HL4527] ...... 249 Col. No. Col. No. [HL4528] ...... 249 [HL4662] ...... 247

[HL4534] ...... 244 [HL4663] ...... 246

[HL4585] ...... 254 [HL4680] ...... 250

[HL4587] ...... 253 [HL4683] ...... 254 [HL4684] ...... 254 [HL4592] ...... 250 [HL4705] ...... 248 [HL4609] ...... 241 [HL4728] ...... 245 [HL4613] ...... 253 [HL4737] ...... 251 [HL4630] ...... 256 [HL4738] ...... 251

[HL4651] ...... 251 [HL4763] ...... 241

[HL4661] ...... 245 [HL4768] ...... 246 Volume 742 Thursday No. 101 24 January 2013

CONTENTS

Thursday 24 January 2013 Questions Education: English Baccalaureate Certificate ...... 1177 Welfare: Personal Independence Payment ...... 1179 Asylum Seekers: Support...... 1182 Egypt: Elections ...... 1184 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1186 Olympic Games 2012: Legacy Motion to Take Note ...... 1186 Nuclear Disarmament Motion to Take Note ...... 1224 European Banking Union: EUC Report Motion to Take Note ...... 1261 Green Deal Framework (Disclosure, Acknowledgment, Redress etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 Motion to Approve ...... 1297 Written Statements...... WS 79 Written Answers...... WA 241