Official Report (Hansard)

Monday 28 May 2012 Volume 75, No 3

Session 2011-2012

Contents

Assembly Business Suspension of Standing Orders...... 111

Ministerial Statements North/South Ministerial Council: Special European Union Programmes...... 111 Business Rates and Update on the Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012...... 118 European Priorities 2012-13...... 128

Assembly Business...... 138

Oral Answers to Questions Culture, Arts and Leisure...... 139 Regional Development...... 145

Executive Committee Business Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion...... 151

Committee Business Fuel Poverty...... 162

Private Members’ Business Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign...... 177

Suggested amendments or corrections will be considered by the Editor. They should be sent to: The Editor of Debates, Room 248, Parliament Buildings, Belfast BT4 3XX. Tel: 028 9052 1135 · e-mail: [email protected] to arrive not later than two weeks after publication of this report. Assembly Members

Agnew, Steven (North Down) Lynch, Seán (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Allister, Jim (North Antrim) Lyttle, Chris (East Belfast) Anderson, Ms Martina (Foyle) McCallister, John (South Down) Anderson, Sydney (Upper Bann) McCann, Fra (West Belfast) Attwood, Alex (West Belfast) McCann, Ms Jennifer (West Belfast) Beggs, Roy (East Antrim) McCarthy, Kieran (Strangford) Bell, Jonathan (Strangford) McCartney, Raymond (Foyle) Boylan, Cathal (Newry and Armagh) McCausland, Nelson (North Belfast) Boyle, Ms Michaela (West Tyrone) McClarty, David (East Londonderry) Bradley, Dominic (Newry and Armagh) McCrea, Basil (Lagan Valley) Bradley, Ms Paula (North Belfast) McCrea, Ian (Mid Ulster) Brady, Mickey (Newry and Armagh) McDevitt, Conall (South Belfast) Brown, Ms Pam (South Antrim) McDonnell, Dr Alasdair (South Belfast) Buchanan, Thomas (West Tyrone) McElduff, Barry (West Tyrone) Byrne, Joe (West Tyrone) McGimpsey, Michael (South Belfast) Campbell, Gregory (East Londonderry) McGlone, Patsy (Mid Ulster) Clarke, Trevor (South Antrim) McGuinness, Martin (Mid Ulster) Cochrane, Mrs Judith (East Belfast) McIlveen, David (North Antrim) Copeland, Michael (East Belfast) McIlveen, Miss Michelle (Strangford) Craig, Jonathan (Lagan Valley) McKay, Daithí (North Antrim) Cree, Leslie (North Down) McKevitt, Mrs Karen (South Down) Dallat, John (East Londonderry) McLaughlin, Mitchel (South Antrim) Dickson, Stewart (East Antrim) McMullan, Oliver (East Antrim) Dobson, Mrs Jo-Anne (Upper Bann) McNarry, David (Strangford) Doherty, Pat (West Tyrone) McQuillan, Adrian (East Londonderry) Douglas, Sammy (East Belfast) Maginness, Alban (North Belfast) Dunne, Gordon (North Down) Maskey, Alex (South Belfast) Durkan, Mark H (Foyle) Maskey, Paul (West Belfast) Easton, Alex (North Down) Molloy, Francie (Mid Ulster) Eastwood, Colum (Foyle) Morrow, The Lord (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Elliott, Tom (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Moutray, Stephen (Upper Bann) Farry, Dr Stephen (North Down) Murphy, Conor (Newry and Armagh) Flanagan, Phil (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Nesbitt, Mike (Strangford) Ford, David (South Antrim) Newton, Robin (East Belfast) Foster, Mrs Arlene (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) Ní Chuilín, Ms Carál (North Belfast) Frew, Paul (North Antrim) Ó hOisín, Cathal (East Londonderry) Gardiner, Samuel (Upper Bann) O’Dowd, John (Upper Bann) Gildernew, Ms Michelle (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) O’Neill, Mrs Michelle (Mid Ulster) Girvan, Paul (South Antrim) Overend, Mrs Sandra (Mid Ulster) Givan, Paul (Lagan Valley) Poots, Edwin (Lagan Valley) Hale, Mrs Brenda (Lagan Valley) Ramsey, Pat (Foyle) Hamilton, Simon (Strangford) Ramsey, Ms Sue (West Belfast) Hay, William (Speaker) Robinson, George (East Londonderry) Hazzard, Christopher (South Down) Robinson, Peter (East Belfast) Hilditch, David (East Antrim) Rogers, Sean (South Down) Humphrey, William (North Belfast) Ross, Alastair (East Antrim) Hussey, Ross (West Tyrone) Ruane, Ms Caitríona (South Down) Irwin, William (Newry and Armagh) Sheehan, Pat (West Belfast) Kelly, Mrs Dolores (Upper Bann) Spratt, Jimmy (South Belfast) Kelly, Gerry (North Belfast) Storey, Mervyn (North Antrim) Kennedy, Danny (Newry and Armagh) Swann, Robin (North Antrim) Kinahan, Danny (South Antrim) Weir, Peter (North Down) Lo, Ms Anna (South Belfast) Wells, Jim (South Down) Lunn, Trevor (Lagan Valley) Wilson, Sammy (East Antrim) Northern Ireland Assembly

Monday 28 May 2012

The Assembly met at 12.00 noon (Mr Speaker in the Chair).

Members observed two minutes’ silence.

Assembly Business Ministerial Statements

Extension of Sitting North/South Ministerial Council: Mr Speaker: I wish to advise the House that Special European Union Programmes I have been given notice by members of the Mr Wilson (The Minister of Finance and Business Committee of a motion to extend Personnel): You would think that, on a day like today’s sitting beyond 7.00 pm. Under Standing this, we could move proceedings outside, like Order 10(3A) the Question on the motion will be I used to do in school on a nice day. We could put without debate. sit out and enjoy the sun, as well as doing the business. Mr Dickson: I beg to move The North/South Ministerial Council met in That in accordance with Standing Order 10(3A) the sitting on Monday 28 May 2012 be extended to no special EU programmes sectoral format in later than 7.30 pm. Armagh on 4 May 2012. Council last met in SEUPB sectoral format in November 2011. I represented the Northern Ireland Executive, accompanied by Junior Minister Martina Anderson. The Government of the Republic of Ireland were represented by Brendan Howlin TD, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, who chaired the meeting.

The meeting began with a presentation from the rural enabler programme, a £2·7 million initiative aimed at the Rural Community Network and funded under the Peace III programme. The programme aims to build positive relationships between all communities in rural areas of Northern Ireland and in the border counties of the Republic. The presentation was a welcome opportunity for the Council to learn directly of the benefits of EU Peace funding and its delivery. I commend the project leaders for their achievements to date and for the very interesting and engaging presentation they gave to the Council.

Mr Pat Colgan, the chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body, updated the Council on progress since the November 2011 meeting. The Council noted and welcomed the ongoing work being undertaken to close the Peace II and INTERREG IIIa programmes. It is anticipated that

111 Ministerial Statements: North/South Ministerial Council: Monday 28 May 2012 Special European Union Programmes the closure process for the two programmes will under assessment. Again, SEUPB aims to have be complete before the end of the year. those assessed in full before the end of the year. If all the assessments are completed The Council also noted SEUPB’s progress in on schedule and the funding allocated, the implementing the current Peace III programme. programme should be back on track. It will have As at the end of March 2012, Peace III had allocated its full budget, and any potential risk approved 158 projects worth £284 million; that will have been greatly reduced. My officials are, is, 98% of the available budget. To date, the therefore, working closely with SEUPB to ensure programme has spent £108 million, and that that that end-of-year target can be achieved. exceeds its EU spending target for 2011. It will need to spend £11 million in 2012 in order The Council was also updated on the progress to achieve this year’s EU target, and SEUPB is that has been made by the five local authority- confident that that can be achieved. based groups under the INTERREG IVa programme. The groups now have 34 projects With regard to the INTERREG IVa cross-border approved, worth £37 million. In addition, they co-operation programme, the Council noted that, have a further £25 million worth of projects at the end of March 2012, 71 projects worth under assessment, including the North West £170 million had been approved. As a result, Regional Science Park. On the basis of projects just over three quarters of the programme’s approved and projects under assessment, it budget has been allocated to projects. The appears likely that they will secure at least £55 programme has to date spent £60 million, million. That is their notional share of the enough to pass the EU spending target for programme funding. It is good to see that the 2011. However, it will need to spend £32 million programme’s local dimension has made a strong in 2012 if it is to meet this year’s target. Again, SEUPB is confident that that can be achieved. showing, because there were concerns that that would not happen. The INTERREG programme The Council had been previously advised by was developed to have both a regional and a SEUPB that INTERREG faced a potential risk local focus, and it is vital that there are good in achieving one or more future EU spending local projects to balance the more regionally targets, possibly in 2013 or 2014. The risk was focused initiatives that have been funded. due primarily to the fact that the programme budget was not yet fully allocated to projects. With regard to future funding, the Council noted SEUPB advised that, if the programme budget that we are still at an early stage in the process. was not fully allocated to appropriate projects The EU budget will not be agreed until the end by the start of 2013, EU spending targets could of this year or perhaps early 2013. Until that be missed, either in 2013 or 2014 or in both. happens, there will be no decision on how When a programme misses its EU spending much individual member states and regions target, any shortfall between the actual and will receive. However, the Council was satisfied the target expenditure is deducted from the that there is likely to be a further INTERREG programme budget. SEUPB had advised the cross-border programme, and the prospects for Council that up to £35 million might be at risk a fourth round of Peace funding remain good. on account of missed spending targets, if the In view of that, the Council noted that, in line risk were not addressed. with its statutory responsibilities, the SEUPB will shortly initiate work on the development of I am pleased to report that, since then, future Peace IV and INTERREG V programmes. there have been some positive and welcome developments with the INTERREG programme. The Council noted that the work will be In January this year, the SEUPB held a call consultative and evidence based. It will take for projects. That attracted 91 applications, account of the performance of previous seeking nearly £190 million, which is around programmes and will be led by a steering group, five times the remaining INTERREG budget. The chaired by the SEUPB. The group will be made top-scoring applications have been shortlisted up of programme stakeholders from across and are currently being assessed in detail. the eligible regions. The Council noted the SEUPB aims to have all the top-scoring projects key priorities for the SEUPB, as set out in its fully assessed and the funding issued by the business plan and budget, and noted that the end of the year. There are also a number of SEUPB’s annual report and accounts had been applications from previous calls that are still prepared in draft for certification.

112 Monday 28 May 2012

Finally, the Council noted the November 2011 North/South Ministerial Council: plenary meeting’s recommendation concerning Special European Union Programmes the establishment of a board for the SEUPB. The Council agreed that the cost of a board Mr Murphy (The Chairperson of the Committee would be difficult to justify. Given the existence for Finance and Personnel): Go raibh maith of the current EU programme monitoring agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas arrangements, a board would, effectively, deal leis an Aire fosta. I thank the Minister for his with only the SEUPB’s administrative budget, statement and welcome the more positive which is just 3% of the total SEUPB budget. indication that was given on INTERREG spend. However, it was agreed that the two sponsor I know that he shares the concerns of many Departments would examine the governance representatives in the House about the level arrangements that are in place for the SEUPB of spend and some of the issues with getting and report back to the Council at the next INTERREG money spent. meeting in sectoral format, which is scheduled It has been suggested to the Finance for October 2012. The decision will be referred Committee that implementing more simplified for endorsement to the next NSMC plenary decision-making arrangements for the next meeting, which will be held in June 2012. INTERREG programme that are similar to those in the other European jurisdictions could avoid Suspension of Standing Orders the bottleneck and delays that have occurred in the current programme. What is the Minister’s Mr Speaker: Before I call the Chair of the view on that? How confident is he that all the Finance Committee, Conor Murphy, I will take necessary arrangements will be completed on you back to the business motion and get the time to ensure that the existing programme gets agreement of the House, because that must be back on track and avoids any budget deductions? done by cross-community support. Mr Wilson: I thank the Chairperson for the Question put and agreed to. question. He is quite right: we cannot continue Resolved (with cross-community support): with the current assessment method for programmes. I would like to think that the That, in accordance with Standing Order 10(3A), changes will occur not for the next set of the sitting on Monday 28 May 2012 be extended programmes, but that we will actually see to no later than 7.30 pm. material changes. In fact, we have to see material changes in the assessment method. I cannot understand why programmes and projects can be assessed and letters of offer can be out within 26 to 28 weeks in other jurisdictions, while assessment takes 56 to 58 weeks in our system.

To meet the targets for the current programme, the SEUPB has said that it will cut that assessment down to 40 weeks for the current applications that have gone in through INTERREG. That has been done in a number of ways. First, there has been an early assessment of projects, so we are now down to a shortlist of 13. Secondly, a more detailed economic assessment will then be carried out. At the same time, there should also be work with Departments and a parallel arrangement to ensure that there is input from economists in the accountable Departments. Since, at the end of the day, the accountable Departments carry the can on this, there must be input from them. Can we marry some of the views in there, so that we get questions at an earlier stage?

113 Ministerial Statements: North/South Ministerial Council: Monday 28 May 2012 Special European Union Programmes

If it can be done in other jurisdictions for the a lot more. I notice that the Minister put a note same kind of programmes, there is no reason of caution in his statement: why it cannot be done with SEUPB. The other “If all of the assessments are completed on thing is that, perhaps in the longer run, we will schedule and the funding allocated”. need to go back and look at devolving this down again to local partnerships rather than it being Is he happy that that will actually happen, or is it centralised to SEUPB level. I hope that that will going to be another tactic of SEUPB — stop, go, come through in the consultation when we look stop, go, panic, save it, panic, save it? at further programmes. Mr Wilson: First of all, I do not think that I 12.15 pm have ever been anything other than honest with the House about the difficulties that SEUPB Mr Girvan: I thank the Minister for his has experienced and will always experience. statement. Unlike other Members, I am I have made it clear that I will not defend the somewhat apprehensive about the way in which indefensible. Where I believe that there is SEUPB delivers some of the funding. I am something to be highlighted, I will highlight it pleased to see, between INTERREG IVa and the so that Members have full transparency. Even cross-border project, that there are a number of if that leads to uneasy questions for me, I am applications, amounting to £190 million. What quite happy about that. measures are being taken to ensure that that funding is dispensed on an equality basis? I ask All I can say is that, first of all, there was a because we understand that certain Members call for projects, and that call has brought in make a big issue about that. I want to be sure some very good projects. Indeed, the worrying that the community that I represent gets a fair thing is that, had some of those projects been crack of the whip. I do not believe that — submitted at an earlier stage, they would probably have got through the scoring process Mr Speaker: I ask the Member — because they are very good projects. It is not Mr Girvan: That is the question. that we are simply throwing money out and saying, “It does not matter what the project Mr Wilson: First of all, programme money is not looks like, let us just get the money spent”. allocated on a community basis. The individual The 13 that are shortlisted are all good, high- projects that come forward are assessed on quality projects. I mentioned the Magheramorne the basis of how they meet the objectives of quarry regeneration project in my area and the the particular themes and programmes. I am north-west science park, both of which are good pleased to say that there appears to be a wider economic drivers and will be important. range of projects coming in. There is a very strong one for the north-west science park, In all the discussions with SEUPB, we have which I know that you will be interested in, Mr looked at what was wrong in the past, why Speaker, and which should benefit the whole it was taking so long and what we can do to community. Certainly, if it has the same impact advance the assessment. I have been given that the science park in Belfast is having, it will an assurance by SEUPB, as has the Minister in be valuable to the north-west. In my area, I am the Republic, that these will be assessed within pleased that one tourist project, the Gobbins the 40-week period. Consultation groups have path, has already received money, and the already been set up to assess the projects, and refurbishment of Magheramorne quarry, which they are starting their work now. I think that is not too far away, will have massive tourist there should be a report from the consultants by potential in east Antrim. It really is up to areas September, and then allocations can be made. and people in those areas, whether that is Letters of offer must go out by the end of this local authorities or businesses, to bring forward year; I put that on the record in the House so quality projects so that they can be assessed. that Members can make their own judgement. If that leads to questions coming back at the end Mr Cree: Like other Members, I have a concern of this year, I am quite happy for that to happen. about the operation of SEUPB. We were told Of course, it is then up to the groups to spend by SEUPB some time ago that it was having the money; that is the next stage. Sometimes, difficulty meeting targets. Suddenly, it takes the that is slow, with spending starting around 18 step, which is to my mind a normal governance months after letters of offer have been issued. issue, of issuing a new call, and it has now got So, again, that is the next big challenge: to

114 Ministerial Statements: North/South Ministerial Council: Monday 28 May 2012 Special European Union Programmes make sure that the money is spent once it has Mr Wilson: The board’s role was to oversee the been allocated. expenditure of SEUPB. As I pointed out in the statement, only about 3% of its expenditure is Mr D Bradley: Go raibh míle maith agat, a for administrative purposes. The board’s only Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an role would be to look after that expenditure, Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for which is such a small amount. I do not support his statement. What progress has been made building more quangos on a cross-border basis on recouping moneys from groups that were or on a Northern Ireland-only basis. The Minister found to be in breach of the terms of their letter from the Irish Republic took the same view. He of offer? and I are like-minded on this: we are not quango Mr Wilson: First, there is a requirement that, builders. We want to knock down as many where moneys have been allocated and the quangos as possible. It was, therefore, decided terms of letters of offer have not been met, the that the board probably was not necessary. money should be recouped. A number of things However, a process has to be gone through, and have to be taken into consideration, the first of we will go through it. I have the same view as the which is the circumstances that led to the breach Member: why set up another unnecessary body? of the letter of offer. In some cases where Mr McQuillan: I also thank the Minister for genuine mistakes have been made and the fault his statement. Has there been any work does not lie totally with the group concerned, done on the future Peace IV and INTERREG V the funding body has to accept some culpability. programmes? Secondly, there has to be a proper investigation. Given that individual groups are seriously Mr Wilson: The work on future programmes will affected when money is recouped, it is only fair be undertaken and chaired by SEUPB. There that they should have the opportunity for is probably about an 18-month lead-in period comeback. Thirdly, of course, a judgement then for that. The work will mostly be consultation has to be made on what percentage of funding and written submissions. We will look at and needs to be recouped. In the past, the levels evaluate past programmes to see the good have varied from very small percentages to — I things and the bad things, the things you want think that there are examples of this — up to to repeat and the things you do not want to 100%. All those things have to be borne in mind. repeat. We will look at what themes people who have an interest in the issue would like to see Let us just remember that many of the groups taken forward for the future, and then a report that undertake work in their community have will go to the Executive on what we see as our a grave responsibility, and some of them need priorities for Northern Ireland. There will be their hand held more than others. I do not think extensive consultation, and I expect that any that we want to run in willy-nilly and penalise report on that will go to the Executive, probably people who, despite acting in the best interests towards the end of 2013. of their community, very often find themselves falling foul of the very bureaucratic system of Mr McLaughlin: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann European funding and find that their personal Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers. assets have been put in jeopardy. We have to Will he give some clarification on the overall bring a bit of humanity to this as well. cost of consultants engaged in the economic appraisal of funding applications? My concern is Mr McCarthy: I am grateful to the Minister for that a lot of the basic structure of applications reporting back to the Assembly this afternoon is similar, and it is paid for over and over again. and, particularly, for his last comments. I It could cut down both the cost and the time pay tribute to all those on the ground who to complete the applications, so perhaps the work hard to bring a lot of benefits to all our Minister can comment. communities. I have sat through many laborious and lengthy meetings with partnerships, which Mr Wilson: I do not have the figure off the top of you mentioned. My question has already been my head, but I think, in answer to questions on asked, so I will ask one about the board. The another occasion in the House, I indicated that I last paragraph mentions the recommendation was concerned about the level of consultancy that a board be set up. That has been set aside, spend through many of the European programmes. I think wisely, because of costs. What was the Of course, some of it is imposed on us by the board going to do? EU rules. There is a requirement that projects

115 Ministerial Statements: North/South Ministerial Council: Monday 28 May 2012 Special European Union Programmes are properly assessed and there is an economic Lessons should be learned from our Budget; it case for them. That is a necessary step. If that is much better to have more forward planning so step was not undertaken, it could be declared that money can be better spent. that the project itself is not valid. 12.30 pm I will come back to the Member, but the consultancy spend has come down. I have raised Mr Wilson: There are a number of reasons for this with SEUPB on a number of occasions. On that. I have given reasons; I have not tried to one occasion, when I raised the question of hide what the problems have been. At an early consultation and the cost of consultees and stage, some of the projects coming through refused to approve it, it came back to me within were not well thought out and required a a week at a 40% reduction. I sometimes think considerable degree of sifting. Secondly, SEUPB that maybe we need to push some of the has not covered itself in glory when it has come consultants, to indicate to them that this is not to the assessment of projects. It takes twice as some easy ride where they just put their hand long for projects to be assessed by SEUPB than out and grab a lot of public money. it takes in other countries. That needs to be improved. Mr Hilditch: I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Minister, what is your opinion of the However, I would be more worried had some of recent INTERREG IVa call? the shortlisted projects looked fairly iffy; then, I think the Member’s criticism might have been Mr Wilson: The Member, since he represents more justified. Perhaps it is because of the East Antrim, will be pleased, as I am, that, in the current economic situation, but projects that recent INTERREG IVa programme, a major project would normally never have come near INTERREG in his constituency — probably worth about £6 are now coming. I am fairly sure that we are not million or £7 million — has been shortlisted. throwing good money after bad with the projects That project at Magheramorne quarry will be of that are being shortlisted. We have good, quality immense benefit to East Antrim, so, from that projects. However, I suppose it would have point of view, I am very pleased with the recent been better had those projects come through call and the outcome of the shortlisting. I would at an earlier stage so that work could have like to claim credit for it, but this is a totally progressed on them much quicker. objective assessment of the projects. At some later date, after it has gone through, I may have Mr McGlone: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann something more to say about it. Comhairle. One issue that has cropped up, particularly with some of the rural development The recent call has attracted £191 million of projects, has been the problem that some applications, which is about five times more groups are having in acquiring matched funding, than the money that is available, so many will especially from finance organisations. Will the be disappointed. Yet, had some of those come Minister advise whether that has been an issue forward at an earlier stage, when money was and whether any representations have been more readily available, they would have easily made through his Department to financial or got the score to get them through to a final lending institutions to try to ease the situation selection. That shows that there are very good and help projects develop? projects out there and that, although some cynics might say that we are panicking now and Mr Wilson: There have been a couple of issues just want to spend the money and throw it at around matched funding. In some cases, letters anything, that has not been the case. It has of offer or projects have been held up because been a very competitive process, and I believe matched funding, especially from Departments that the projects that have been selected will be in the Republic, has not been forthcoming. very worthwhile and great economic drivers in I discussed that issue with the Minister in the area when they finally get on the ground. Armagh. I have been given an assurance that although the money has been held up because Mr Beggs: I thank the Minister for his of budgetary considerations, it will be made statement. Does he agree with me that, when available and letters of offer will go out. SEUPB has indicated that there are future risks for INTERREG funding, primarily from the I have not been made aware of the problem that lateness of the Budget, that is not a good way the Member raised about financial institutions to spend public money? not being prepared to make matched funding

116 Ministerial Statements: North/South Ministerial Council: Monday 28 May 2012 Special European Union Programmes available for projects. I would have thought that a barrage of questions around this room about any group going to a bank with a guarantee what was being done with public money. that it was getting EU money for a project and knowing that the amount of money coming Mr Allister: Is the Minister satisfied with how SEUPB conducts itself in regard to its investigation from the bank would probably be a fairly small of funding spend by groups? I refer in particular proportion of the total funding package would to how it has treated the victims’ group Families have been offering the bank good collateral. Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR). The However, I meet banks on a regular basis, and if investigation denied FAIR the basic rules of natural the Member is aware that this is a widespread justice by denying it the opportunity to comment problem, I would love him to give me the details on the report before it was concluded and as and I will take it up. issues emerged. Does the Minister think that Mr Humphrey: Since the Minister has made it that indicates that SEUPB handles matters in a clear that all politics is local, I commend the fair and even-handed manner? SEUPB for its funding for the Shankill Women’s Mr Wilson: I made it quite clear in an earlier Centre in north Belfast recently. Credit must answer to another Member that, since the also be given to our Ministers and MEPs who outcomes of many of the investigations can be have been lobbying for a Peace IV; I hope that fairly draconian for the people who are involved happens in the near future. in the groups, it is absolutely right that every Evidence was given by the chief executive of the opportunity is given to groups to explain why SEUPB to the Committee, and members raised they breached the rules if they did so. There a number of concerns in relation to funding, should also be a proper investigation into the applications being made and the length of severity and the intention because if something time it took for the letters of offer to be sent. has been done unintentionally, the penalty should In administration, financial governance and be much less than where somebody simply management, as well as practice and structure — says, “Those are the rules, but we don’t think that the rules are very good”, and throws them over Mr Speaker: The Member should come to his their shoulder and decides to go their own way. question. I have met the Member privately about FAIR. Mr Humphrey: The Minister should be aware I have made my views known to SEUPB, and I that lots of groups have struggled to get letters am quite happy to state publicly that, a report of offer. That affects their output, outcomes and having been done and it being clear that the delivery to the community and impedes them police did not believe that there was anything in their work. That means that when they come worthy of prosecution, the group should at least to review, the work has not been maximised have had an opportunity to bring forward some because of that system. Will the Minister give points and state how it saw the investigation as an assurance that the process will be shortened? being inadequate, because that may well have changed the view of what sanctions should be Mr Wilson: I want to look at all the issues, and I imposed. I expect SEUPB to give the group that have asked the SEUPB to look at all the issues opportunity. that lead to the delay. If one reason is the stringency of the governance arrangements that Mr Elliott: I thank the Minister for the detail. are required to be put in place, that needs to be Although I appreciate the answer that he gave to addressed. However, I point out to the Member Mr Humphrey about being certain of certain that, since we are dealing with public money and projects, is there any possibility of a speedier since there very often will be matched funding resolution from SEUPB on some of the economic from other public bodies in Northern Ireland, projects that come through the cross-border we cannot simply hand money out willy-nilly bodies like the Irish Central Border Area Network to groups whose credentials have not been (ICBAN)? There are serious delays, which established. jeopardise the investment of private investors.

There has to be a balance; there has to be proper Mr Wilson: It seems to have been the theme of governance and accountability to make sure that this statement that people are unhappy about money does not go astray because, as sure as the speed. Of course, as the Member has you relax the rules, things go wrong, and as sure quite rightly pointed out, that can have severe as things go wrong, there will, quite rightly, be economic consequences for an area in which

117 Monday 28 May 2012 there is perhaps a good project. Sometimes, Business Rates and Update on the timing of the projects is quite important the Implementation of the Rates because you are aiming for certain events (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) or times or whatever. All that I can do is to continue to emphasise to and plague SEUPB to 2012 make sure that the shorter time commitment Mr Wilson (The Minister of Finance and that it has now given is met. It should not be Personnel): I have a number of statements complacent about that, and it has to look at here, Mr Speaker, so I want to make sure that I ways of bringing that down since it is quite clear have the right one. I would hate to start off on in other jurisdictions that 40 weeks or 58 weeks the wrong foot and for you to call me to order. is not the norm; half of that is the norm. That is what we should aim for. I wish to make a statement to the House on the implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012. There has, quite rightly, been quite a lot of discussion recently in the newspapers about the economic problems that are being experienced by town centres and small businesses in those town centres. I felt that it was worthwhile to put on record what the Assembly has done to date and also to explain some of the limitations on what can be done by the Assembly.

My statement today will update Members about the initial success of the implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012, which we passed in February, and respond to calls for positive action to be taken to alleviate the impact on the local business community during these difficult and changing times.

Every week — I am sure that Members will have experienced it in their constituencies — we hear of shop closures and the impact that the downturn is having on local traders in our towns and cities. I see it for myself in my constituency and as I visit other towns and cities in my capacity as Finance Minister, and I hear about it in the media and, of course, in the House from Members during Question Time, and so on. Only last week, research by one retail organisation revealed that one in five shops in Northern Ireland is empty. That is the highest vacancy rate in the United Kingdom.

It is not simply the economic downturn that is causing the problem. Online shopping and bigger stores are taking an increasing share of consumer spending, and the recession is leading to, at least for this period, consumers having less money to spend. The retail industry has been undergoing a revolution, and that is having a sudden impact on local traders because, overall, retail spending is down. Times are changing for local retailers, and it is clear that there are simply too many shops in some areas, and no amount of public money will be

118 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 enough to sustain them all. However, I want manufacturing rates at 30%. That helps 4,300 to give those with a future an opportunity or a manufacturing businesses with £60 million in fighting chance to help maintain the commercial rate relief alone. That is an economic support and social core of our towns and cities. that is unique to Northern Ireland. We have also retained the empty property relief at 50%. Furthermore, we must recognise the wider It has been removed in England and Wales and context. Other sectors of business need help, is being removed in Scotland. This is the right as consumer spending comes from those in policy, given the growing number of empty shops. employment. It is not simply a matter of helping the retail sector alone. Allow me, therefore, an 12.45 pm opportunity to outline the measures that I, as Finance Minister, have taken to create the right In addition, of course, freezing domestic rates conditions for businesses to survive and flourish. and deferring water charges have bolstered spending power. Do not forget the 19% increase It is well known that people in Northern Ireland in the domestic regional rate in the year before enjoy the lowest household taxes in the United devolution, the absence of a cap on domestic Kingdom. We ought to remember that. Every rate bills and the water bills that were ready day on the radio, we hear people talking about for posting before the Assembly was set up. the level of rates in Northern Ireland. We have We saved most households hundreds, if not the lowest household taxes of anywhere in the thousands, of pounds in the process, at a cost United Kingdom, and that is a result of policies to public expenditure. There is an opportunity that have been actively pursued by the Executive that will be foregone here if we do not collect in deciding, in the previous Budget period, to this money because it will not be available for freeze rates in real terms and to do the same in other public services. It has been of real benefit this Budget period up to 2015 to enable people to the retail sector by reducing its costs but also to keep as much of their money as possible in by giving people more disposable income to their own pockets. That is better than us simply spend in the shops. taking the easy way out and looking for the kind of increases that occurred under direct rule or, Together, all these actions complement the indeed, that are being undertaken, even in these commercial rating measures that this Assembly recessionary times, in other parts of the United approved through the Rates (Amendment) Kingdom. Act (Northern Ireland) 2009. We passed that legislation, despite significant pressure from It is not always fully appreciated how competitive some quarters not to, precisely because we our business rates are compared to those understood that small businesses needed help in England, Scotland and Wales. For a start, now. as I have said, the regional rate is being held constant in real terms. That is part of the four- I will briefly address some of the criticisms of year Budget that the Executive have agreed, and the large retail levy and what has happened businesses can bank on that. It will not change; in reality. Some said that the 15% increase it is set in stone until 2014-15. That gives in rates for large stores would see the certainty and stability. That means an increase attractiveness of Northern Ireland as a place of 2·2% in the regional rate for business for large retailers to invest diminished, yet the ratepayers over the 2012-13 rating year. That Environment Minister’s desk is strewn with builds on the regional rate freeze over the past planning applications for large retail premises in four years, keeping rate increases as low as virtually every part of the Province. possible and meaning that, unlike anywhere else I will turn now to the measures enacted in the in the United Kingdom, business rates will have Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2009. been frozen in real terms in Northern Ireland for The expanded small business rate relief scheme seven straight years. provided around 8,200 extra business ratepayers We have also adopted the lowest inflationary with a 20% discount for the next three years, index, the GDP deflator. Business rates in other bringing the total number of business ratepayers parts of the UK are geared to the retail price who benefit from that relief up to 23,000 index and, this year, went up by 5·6%, which is businesses. The percentage of Northern Ireland more than double what was experienced locally. properties now covered by the small business In addition, the Executive have agreed to hold rate relief scheme is 33%; a third of all

119 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 businesses and commercial properties, of other premises around them. I have got to representing a total rate relief of £12million. say that, as I have walked around town centres, I have seen some marvellous examples of that. The extension to the scheme was achieved by Shop displays have made it look as though charging the very largest retailers a levy rather there is activity going on in shops, rather than than imposing an additional burden on local the shutters being pulled down, which, of course, business ratepayers, which is the way in which creates an air of dereliction on the street. similar schemes are paid for in other parts of the UK. I will consider extending the scope The measures are unique to Northern Ireland of the scheme next year, again at no cost to and, along with the large stores levy and other ratepayers. What I am able to do will the recent announcement of a business depend on the outcome of my Department’s rates revaluation, they deliver the majority evaluation of the scheme, which will be carried of the recommendations of the ‘Fair Rates out later this year. That evaluation will include for Small Traders’ campaign document. That consideration of how best to recycle the savings was produced by a coalition of more than 31 that have been achieved through the exclusion business organisations and trader groups, which of ratepayers with multiple premises. published a five-point plan last autumn.

However, it is already apparent that the The Northern Ireland Executive have offered extended small business rate relief scheme the retail and small business sector a suite of is making a significant difference. It was measures that are, in my view, unprecedented dismissed by some as being too small to be in the United Kingdom. Understandably, and of any benefit, but I have been approached especially in the midst of a recession, we have by retailers who are keen to thank me, this been lobbied for even more interventions. I Executive and this Assembly for the reduction in am sympathetic to the plight of our business their rate bills in these challenging times. This community and, instinctively, I want to see reduction sits, on average, at around £1,500 them hold on to more of their profits and over a three-year period. For those who availed invest further in their firms. I hear the calls themselves of the enhancements introduced for more targeting of rate relief, in particular in April, the average amount awarded over the for certain town centres or enterprise zones three-year period will be around £2,000. within them. However, such measures present major difficulties in choosing exactly where Other measures have been introduced this year to designate and the likely impact that they to help regenerate town centres, including a will have, such as the unfair competitive concession that allows new occupiers of long- disadvantage they may create for those outside term empty retail premises to receive a 50% the chosen areas and the likelihood of causing rebate on their rates for 12 months. The rates displacement. Furthermore, even if I wanted holiday has already received a positive response to intervene in that way, the risk of someone from businesses; close to 50 enquiries are successfully challenging such a policy is being dealt with by Land and Property Services unacceptably high. I would rather direct scarce (LPS). Although this might not seem a lot, resources to the business community than when it is multiplied up over the remainder of waste them on defending well-meaning schemes this year, it will mean lots more shops being that are vulnerable to challenge in the courts. I occupied in our towns and city centres and a would rather give money to the businesses that lot more people being employed. I encourage I want to help than to barristers and solicitors. all MLAs to actively promote this innovative For those reasons, I prefer the broader approach scheme in their own areas in whatever way they I have outlined. can. Unlike small business rate relief, which goes to businesses automatically, businesses The Executive have also agreed to LPS starting have to apply for this because it is not an work immediately on a general revaluation of automatic scheme. 72,000 non-domestic properties in Northern Ireland. That will redistribute the rating burden In addition, the use of any empty shop window from April 2015, based on more up-to-date displays for non-commercial purposes will now assessments. Unfortunately, that cannot be be disregarded for rating purposes, allowing rushed through or brought forward, nor should it unoccupied properties to be given some life and be regarded as a panacea for all businesses. It stop them from bringing down the appearance will mean that sectors and trading locations that

120 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 have not fared as well since the last revaluation I have made the promise before and I make it in 2003 will pay less and those that have fared again that we will not dip into those pockets any better will pay more, even if rental values overall more than is necessary, until we have made all have gone down. Just because a property has the savings that are to be made in delivering halved in value over recent years, it does not efficient and effective regional government mean that rates bills will halve. When rental services. If there is a better way, I am keen to prices doubled in some instances, it did not hear what it is, but it is not viable to re-engineer result in a doubling of rates and nor does it the rating system and change the way that work in the reverse. Although it is far too early rates are measured to somehow distribute the to judge, many of our smaller local businesses rating burden based on individual business may not benefit much or at all. I have heard performance. There are other taxes that do some individuals call for the revaluation to be that, and even if we were to find a simple way brought forward by two years. Not only is such a — no regional or local government in the world suggestion impractical but it could result in has managed that — it would takes years to some businesses paying more in their rates two implement. years early. In the meantime, the rebalancing measures that we have agreed — the extension Let us take a collective or cross-departmental to small business rate relief and the large approach to tackling the underlying issues and shops levy — will help many local businesses not simply look at rates bills. My colleague without adversely affecting our public the Minister for Social Development, Nelson expenditure position. McCausland, is due to bring forward legislation I also need to recognise that there are limits on business improvement districts, and that to the concessions we can make and still is a good example of this. The rating system raise enough money to help pay for essential has a role to play in developing a policy that services. I say that because, every month, suits businesses, suits government and suits someone with a worthy cause comes along and Northern Ireland. Let us not forget the direct asks for more rate relief or further exemptions. investment that the Department for Social This month, it is the equine industry; last Development (DSD) is making in our towns and month, it was town centres; the month before, cities. We have already spent over £20 million it was sports clubs; and so it goes on. I in a three-year period on town centre public would perhaps be more sympathetic to using realm schemes, and another £40 million of the rating system as a means of relief if the planned spend is in the pipeline. Then there are politicians who are often responsible for calling the restore and revitalisation projects, funded for those benefits were not the same ones since last year with £1·5 million plus another who call for more money to be spent on this or £1·5 million on town master plans. Towns in my that. I am looking in a particular direction, but constituency have benefited from that. I could probably look around the whole place and apply that statement. It is a local taxation If anyone doubts that this is a worthwhile system, not a benefits system. If sectors need investment, they should look at the Newcastle to be supported, we should look to other ways experience, where footfall is up threefold. That of doing that, rather than immediately jumping is something that can make a real and lasting to the conclusions that the rating system is the difference to the fortunes of our business best vehicle for delivering help and that it is community. For my part, and with your support, somehow not real money. I will be focusing on getting the right balance Any revenue forgone is less money for public back into the business rates system to help expenditure, and we still have to raise similar pay for investment and to fund efficient public amounts of money. Every pound raised in services, recognising that the system must business rates is a pound that supplements act for business, not against it. I hope that our Barnett share. It goes to hospitals, schools, Members will appreciate that we have taken roads and council services. It does not disappear the right approach, which is one of adopting into a black hole somewhere. We need to strike Northern Ireland policies that are tailored the right balance. Rebalancing the economy and responsive to Northern Ireland needs. during the continuing downturn and through to Devolution has allowed us to do that and to do recovery means keeping as much money in the things differently in Northern Ireland in a way control of local businesses as possible. that has benefited local businesses.

121 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012

Mr Murphy (The Chairperson of the Committee etc. By 2014, we will have to have established a for Finance and Personnel): Go raibh maith rate for each of the properties. We need that to agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim be done by at least September 2014 because buíochas leis an Aire. I thank the Minister councils will need to know what is happening to for his statement, and I share his view in his their rate base so that they can make judgements closing remarks that we should be looking about the rates for the following year. to have the economic levers available to us to adopt our own solutions that are tailored That is the kind of deadline and process that and targeted to our economic situation. The are involved. So, we have to go through quite Committee for Finance and Personnel is keenly an extensive process to have a model that we interested in the process of non-domestic believe we can stand over. revaluation, which is due to take effect from 1.00 pm April 2015. What methodology will be used to ensure that robustness and objectivity are Mr Girvan: I thank the Minister for his achieved in assessments? Can the Minister statement, which contains a number of very outline what the appeals procedure might be good elements. We know that we have a for non-domestic properties? He has been keen certain amount of money to raise from rates, to allay any sense that this is likely to lead to but it depends how we break that up. There is a a windfall or a substantial reduction in rates misconception out there. We are asked why the bills for properties. Can he suggest what he revaluation was cancelled for the non-domestic considers the overall impact of revaluation of rate in the first place, but a lot of people are non-domestic properties will be? ignorant of the amount of money that we have to raise. So, why was the revaluation cancelled in Mr Wilson: The Chairman is quite right to say the first place? that that must be done on an objective basis. One of the reasons why it cannot be rushed is Mr Wilson: In answer to the Committee that we have to be able to stand up and justify Chairperson, I probably said why it was not each individual rates bill, because there will possible to carry through such an analysis in be an appeals mechanism, which will be as it 2010. We cannot simply say, “I think that it is is at present. Where business owners do not a bit less. Fewer people are using those kinds believe that their properties have been properly of areas. Rental values may have gone done assessed, they will be able to challenge that there and are maybe a bit higher here. Let’s right up to court level. The first thing that we do an estimation and get a rates bill.” As the have to do is an analysis of the market, and we Chairperson pointed out in his questions, those are starting that now. That information will come things will be rigorously tested because the from a number of sources. Forms will be sent rates bill that someone gets is an overhead for out to businesses this year, and they will be their business. Therefore, if it is wrong, if they sending us back information about rental values think that it is wrong, or if they think that it has and other information on that. We will use all been created in a shoddy way or that data were the information that comes back, including from not sufficient, they will make sure that they professional bodies and chartered surveyors challenge it. who are carrying out work for us. We will then design valuation models for different sectors Do not forgot that we have to collect a huge and for different trading locations and start amount of data on what is happening with applying that to individual properties. That businesses and rental value and on what is requires considerable work on the ground happening to the various sectors and locations because, of course, you can sometimes get and the rental values in them. If you go back to things wrong when using a computer model. 2010, you will see that the market was all over the There will be quite a lot of footwork as we go place. Property values were up and down — down around looking at how the results of the model rather than up — and people were panicking, tally with what we find on the ground. and traders or people who held property were trying to do anything to hold on to it. So, there will be that to consider. Sometimes very low valuations or low rents In 2013-14 we will probably apply that model to were given just to get concessions into a new the entire stock and look through the figures to shopping centre. Long term, that shopping see whether we have got our estimations right, centre might have had huge potential, but given

122 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 that it was built in 2010, it had no potential. six people. The burden of rates could lead to What do you do? Do you fill it up with short- the closure of his fledgling business. Can the term leases and give them away practically Minister take any further measures that will help for nothing? How robust would those data smaller businesses, especially new businesses, have been? They would not have been robust. regardless of their location? Therefore, any valuation that was done around that time would have been, at best, fairly Mr Wilson: I do not know whether the £27,000 shaky and, at worst, useless. For that reason, was a yearly rate bill or an accumulative rate we made a conscious decision to delay the bill with arrears, so I do not know the individual revaluation. It was in the interests of everyone circumstances. Any business has, of course, the to delay it because there was no point in us option of appealing the level of a rate bill, and I putting huge resources into it and finding that advise him to do that. Appeals are being dealt we were getting all kinds of legal challenges. with much more quickly now.

Mr Cree: I also thank the Minister for his As I said already to the Assembly, I will be statement. He will remember that when we looking at a revaluation of the small business were discussing the Rates (Amendment) Bill, rate relief scheme this year. If we can find many businesses pointed towards business ways to improve or extend it next year, we will improvement districts as the way to go. Has the do that. I cannot give definite details on that Department undertaken any work on that since because I do not know what extra money may that date? be available. However, it will be at no cost to existing ratepayers because there is no point Mr Wilson: The business improvement districts taking money off one group of ratepayers to give fall under the responsibility of Department for to another. We did that with the large business Social Development and work will be ongoing levy because we believed that there was an there. Indeed, I think that the Minister for inequality, which has been sorted out. Social Development intends to bring forward legislation on that fairly soon. However, As I said in the statement, only so much business improvement districts are not an can be done through the rating system. The alternative to the rating system. They allow rating system cannot solve all the ills that are for local businesses to come together to experienced through increased competition pay a supplementary rate of some sort that between businesses, changing shopping habits is to be spent on things in their area that or because people have decided to shop in they want it to be, whether that is improved different ways, such as online. Those are things security, improved environmental measures or that the rating system will never sort out. We marketing or whatever. The only question for are sympathetic to the sort of issue the Member the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) raised and we will do what we can within the in that is whether the current rating system limits of the financial constraints that are can be used to collect the money or whether imposed on us. the database that we have can be used to Mrs Cochrane: I thank the Minister for his enable the source of the money from different statement. Has there been much uptake of the businesses to be identified. There will be small opportunity around the shop window displays to amounts of money locally. It is really to allow improve the appearance of areas, and how is local businesses to do their bit in saying, “Here that being controlled to ensure that the displays are choices that we want to make. Central are in line with the scheme’s intention? government might not make these. We believe they are priorities and will have such an impact Mr Wilson: If they are not in line with the on our area that we will put some additional scheme — if, for example, a business simply money in to make them happen”. decides to extend its activities into a shop window — it will not get rate relief. Those sorts Mr D Bradley: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann of things will be checked out. Comhairle, Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the Minister for his statement. I do not have figures for the number of On Friday last, a young businessman called businesses that have taken up the scheme. We to my office. He opened a coffee kiosk in one are now two months into the financial year, and of our shopping centres. He is being faced we have had enquiries. I have seen some with a bill of £27,000 in rates. He employs schemes in town centres. I saw one in the

123 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 centre of Belfast the other day, so I know that it possible legal challenges could be addressed is beginning to happen. I hope that chambers of that way. We should try to indicate that — trade will work with local art colleges, charity Mr Speaker: Time. groups, etc, to look at innovative ways to use shop windows so they can have attractive displays Mr McLaughlin: — we are prepared to think and at least give the appearance of activity. That outside the box, if necessary. was the whole purpose of the scheme. Since it was heavily supported by chambers of commerce Mr Wilson: We have had a discussion on a in all the towns that I visited, and I may have number of occasions, in Question Time and been with nine or 10 chambers of commerce, whatnot, about enterprise zones in Northern hopefully they will encourage estate agents and Ireland, be they the enterprise zones that the shop owners to do that. Secretary of State believes we should be setting up and which have been set up elsewhere, or Mr McQuillan: I thank the Minister once again enterprise zones in town centres, as suggested for his latest statement. Is location taken into by some retail organisations. I know that the account when valuing a property, whether town Member has said that he believes that the centre, out of town or rural? difficulties could be overcome, but they will not be easily overcome. Can you imagine an Mr Wilson: Location will be taken into enterprise zone stopping at the end of one consideration in so far as the rental value of a street and the next bit of the street or the location will be reflective of its footfall and next street not having the same advantages, popularity. That, of course, is what the rates will especially if the advantages are to be significant be based on. You would expect that rental enough to help the area? You would get all values of very popular locations, which lots of forms of displacement, distortion of trade, etc. retailers want into, would go up, and the rates I have absolutely no doubt that there would be would reflect that. The rental values of places immense legal challenges to that. that have fallen in popularity will go down as Even if there were not legal challenges, there landlords try to attract people into those would be economic distortion. That is why, if properties. That will also be reflected in the rates. we are going to look at local initiatives, it would Location will be taken into consideration, but be more beneficial in the longer term for local only through the mechanism of what the market people to have the ability to decide to put in says about the rental levels in those areas. additional money through the bids process, Mr McLaughlin: Go raibh maith agat, a define where they want the improvement district Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for to be, give the money locally, have a say over his comprehensive statement today. I very it and make the judgement on it. That is more much welcome the restatement of the various likely to be robust. I would prefer it if we were to look at more general applications of changes initiatives that the Executive and the Assembly to the rates system, and I think that that is the have approved, on the basis that eaten bread route that we will have to continue going down. is soon forgotten. I very much hope that the local media will reflect that, because we have Mr Hilditch: I thank the Minister and welcome been talking about very significant statistics the statement and the measures contained with regard to the families that are being driven therein. Minister, will you provide additional help into poverty and the businesses that are being for more than three years? driven out of business. Mr Speaker: That is an excellent example of a I have been glad that I have been able to very focused question; it was straight to the point. endorse and support what the Minister has done. Lord Morrow: Let us hear the focused answer. However, there is the issue of the enterprise zones. I take some encouragement from the fact Mr Wilson: That is even more demanding, that, in his statement, the Minister has considered of course. I will give a focused answer. The that issue and considered the problems. current small business rate relief will stop. Perhaps there is a case to be made for localised The legislation for it stops in 2015. However, initiatives on a pilot basis in the form of four to we said that, beyond the revaluation, we would six enterprise zones with a defined lifetime. I be looking for ways to help small businesses. think that the affordability issue and any In the consultation, we asked for suggestions

124 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 on that. Not very many came through at that Mr Dallat: I also welcome the Minister’s stage, other than the business improvement statement. I note that he told us that the districts. As we approach 2015, businesses Environment Minister’s desk is strewn with and business organisations will, hopefully, start planning applications from large retailers. Does to look at ways in which we can replace small the Minister agree that that is not good news business rate relief. However, do not forget that for small shops? What can the Executive do the idea of the revaluation was to try to create collectively to ensure that we do not get into the the even playing field that did not exist because situation that exists in Britain, where 60% of of the huge change that happened between even modest-sized villages and towns have no 2001 and today. shops at all?

1.15 pm Mr Wilson: I was simply making the point that, when this was introduced, the Assembly and Mr Beggs: Current business rates for town I were lambasted by some people for putting centres reflect the 2005 rate evaluation. Does up a sign outside Northern Ireland that read, the Minister accept that the 20% discount that “Business is not welcome.” Apparently, large has been given may not be sufficient and that businesses would take their cue and not invest if we really want to value our town centres and in Northern Ireland. At the time, I said that that town centre retailers in the future, a much was nonsense and I rubbished it. I rubbished it greater reassessment may be required? Why to their faces when they came to see me, and were England and Wales able to proceed with some of them left with fairly red faces. They the 2010 revaluation, which might have had an even bigger impact than the 20%, when we now look even more foolish than they did at that could not? stage, because applications have, of course, continued to come in. Mr Wilson: First, we are going to have a much greater reassessment. I do not know whether I did not say whether business was welcome the Member has been listening. We are going to or not welcome. There are some places where have a full rate assessment for 2015. It will be those planning applications will be of benefit to a rigorous examination of what has happened the location, and there are some where they will in the market. I outlined all the steps, from not. Of course, that is a job not for the Finance data collection to modelling to investigation Minister but the Environment Minister. If the of individual areas and premises to levying Member is not happy with some of the decisions individual bills. This is a major, internationally that are made, he should direct his fire at Mr recognised assessment that will take two-and- Attwood, not at me. a-half years, which is the same length of time Mr Humphrey: I thank the Minister for his that it would take in any other part of the United statement. I welcome the initiatives that Kingdom. the Minister has introduced: the 50% empty Secondly, he asked why they could have it in premises relief scheme; the rebate scheme; the England but not here. All the indications and regional rate freeze; and, of course, the small measures show that the turbulence in the business rate relief scheme, which averages property market in Northern Ireland, although £1,500. All that is very welcome for local not as great as that in the Irish Republic, was businesses. I know that the Minister has met far more extensive than in any other part of the the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce United Kingdom. I explained why that turbulence and Belfast City Centre Management to discuss in the property market would not have enabled the dire situation that exists in Belfast city us to revaluate the rates in a way that was centre. Can the Minister assure the House that robust, fair and that we could have stood over he will continue to engage with chambers of and that would not have made us subject to commerce and businesses across Northern widespread appeal. That is the reason. Ireland, as he has done in the past year?

We are where we are. We are undertaking the Mr Wilson: I can. Let me say something about revaluation, and it will be a full evaluation. In the engagement with the Belfast Chamber the meantime, I believe that small business rate of Trade and Commerce. It brought forward relief has compensated for whatever differences the idea of dressing empty windows, and we may have resulted from the necessary delay in responded to that. It brought forward the idea the revaluation in 2010. of a 50% discount on empty shops, and we

125 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 responded to that. Some of the big city centre of the surveys that have shown some parts of stores were being affected by the large retail Northern Ireland to have higher rates of empty levy, so the Belfast Chamber of Trade and businesses than other parts of the UK, so Commerce asked us to ensure that it is limited heaven alone knows what the situation would be to a three-year period. We responded to that. like if our rates had been roughly the average of Given the impact that it might have had on those in the rest of the UK. some of the large stores in Belfast city centre, Has the Minister been able to get examples of it indicated that 20% was probably too high, and best practice from other parts — for example, we responded to that. from England and Scotland — of programmes I listened to chambers of trade and chambers of and proposals that could be implemented here commerce during the consultation, and changes to assist those empty businesses? were made to the initial proposals to reflect Mr Wilson: I expect that England, Scotland and all the aforementioned concerns. There were Wales could learn from us. We have a wider some things to which we could not respond, range of measures than in other jurisdictions. however. In addition, through the Department However, as I said in answer to an earlier for Social Development, extensive work on question, I am always open to any suggestions street furniture and refurbishment has been that come along. They will be given serious carried out in Belfast city centre. Members have consideration. If they are affordable and probably found that, when work is being done workable, of course we will look at them. in their town, traders complain that it has the effect of cutting down on footfall, and so on, and Lord Morrow: I, too, welcome the Minister’s although the work in Belfast was disruptive, the statement. It was fairly comprehensive. If the extensive investment has helped to brighten the Act is to be an even greater success, however, city and make it a very attractive location. does he not accept that the banks must come on board and be more constructive? I read Therefore, lots of work is being done across continually about the 0·5% lending rate. I would Departments, and we are listening. Despite like to know who qualifies for that rate because what some people may say, we do not sit here it is certainly not those with a mortgage, an with cloth ears. We put forward ideas. If those overdraft or a personal loan. Does he agree ideas can be improved on, I am not so proud that we need the banks on board to make this a that I will not say that somebody has a better total success? idea than me. If somebody does, I will steal it and use it. Mr Wilson: The Member raises an issue, but it is probably the wrong morning to ask me about Mr I McCrea: I thank the Minister for his it, because before I came to the Chamber, I statement. I congratulate him on his work was with someone in my constituency and then as Finance Minister to try to help lessen the someone in the office upstairs who, if their burden on our local businesses, especially side of the story is correct or even half correct, independent retailers across our town centres. told me the most horrific stories about the way I also congratulate him for the benefit that the in which banks seem to be determined to put rate relief scheme has brought to over 1,300 businesses under. This week, I will speak with properties in my constituency — the banks concerned and, at some stage, I think Mr Speaker: Do I detect a question? that I will be at the point at which I will name some of them because I am increasingly worried Mr I McCrea: — to the value of around £1·2 that some banks, or some bank managers, million. That having been said, the Minister seem to be totally cut off from reality and do not referred to extending the programme. May I recognise that although they have a commercial encourage him to give serious consideration to responsibility to their organisation, they have doing that? a civic responsibility to ensure that they do not stand in the way of economic progress in Mr Wilson: Yes. [Laughter.] Northern Ireland.

Mr Campbell: I thank the Minister for his Some Members: Hear, hear. statement and for outlining the generous nature of some of the changes that he has Mr Allister: I do not pretend that there are easy introduced. I am sure that he is aware of some answers but I suspect that a lot of businesses

126 Ministerial Statements: Business Rates and Update on the Monday 28 May 2012 Implementation of the Rates (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2012 feeling crippled by rates will be disappointed by Minister, holding back on anything that could the statement because although it is very strong be reasonably done and watching businesses on reviewing what has been done, there is really close down, I do not know what kind of world nothing new in it that will bring immediate relief. they live in. People can say that shutters are There have been many recent warnings of what going to come down, but we have not, and will is in store. The Minister’s colleague the Member not, hold back. Let me be clear: shutters may of Parliament for North Antrim said recently that come down but that will not be as a result of if something is not done urgently, we are going our being cloth-eared and not listening, or being to hear more of the sound of shutters coming indolent and not working. We will do what we down and not going up again. The Minister’s can because we realise that people’s livelihoods statement says that he is: are at stake.

“focusing on getting the right balance back into the business rates system.”

However, that may be too late for many. Can no current further relief be given to those who are in dire straits?

Mr Wilson: These are new measures that came into operation in April this year, and I spoke today about their review. It is not a historical review of something that we did three years ago and our saying how wonderful we are. Problems were drawn to our attention, and we responded quickly by introducing a relief scheme in this financial year. Let us look at the situation. This year, the manufacturing industry will save £90 million as a result of the relief that it receives. Small businesses will save £12 million in overheads as a result of the relief received. I cannot quantify what has been done for an average business by freezing rates for the past four years, or what will be done by freezing rates for the next three years. All I can say is that no other part of the United Kingdom has responded to businesses in this way. I explained to the House that revaluation cannot be done more quickly. If I could wave a magic wand and have premises revalued more quickly in a way that I could stand over, I would do it. However, for all the reasons that I outlined and despite all the work that has been done, revaluation cannot be done more quickly.

I bet the Member is sitting there thinking that I have not mentioned the last bit of his question. However, I am not going to dodge that. When constituents bombard their public representatives, and the news media also bombard us with a diet of how something has to be done and nothing is being done, it is easy for that to drip-feed into everybody’s psyche, even those who are politically involved. Within resources and constraints, we have done what we could, and we have done our best. If people think that there is some value in me, as Finance

127 Monday 28 May 2012

European Priorities 2012-13 2015. Over the past year — year 1 of the target period — Departments drew down £15·8 million Mr Bell (Junior Minister, Office of the First of competitive EU funds, and that is an increase Minister and deputy First Minister): With your of £4·9 million over the 2010-11 baseline. That permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a is an excellent start and provides a strong statement on the Executive’s recent European springboard for delivering even greater success successes, including a major engagement event across the remaining three years of the target in Brussels undertaken by the Barroso task force period. working group, and to explain how those efforts have shaped the Executive’s European priorities I turn to the Barroso task force and the context for 2012-13, which are published today. for the event. All these efforts culminated in a highly successful Brussels engagement I am pleased to report that the past year has programme by the Barroso task force working seen a substantial step-up in our collective group between 27 and 29 March under the engagement in European Union policies, funding chairmanship of junior Minister Anderson programmes and networks. All Departments and me. We led a delegation of officials from have been involved in the work, which has seen all Departments to Brussels to engage in an us raise our positive profile, commit additional extensive and comprehensive programme of dedicated resources to support our efforts and meetings and discussions with the European has helped us to achieve increased financial Commission’s members of the Barroso task successes. force. The purpose of the programme was to take stock of progress made to date against 1.30 pm the Executive’s agreed priorities, to pursue I turn to the European successes of 2011 current issues and to share our future strategic and 2012. While the euro zone’s financial priorities with the European Commission. problems have been making all the headlines, this has been a hugely important year for us It is an important time to make our voice in Northern Ireland to be very actively engaged heard in Brussels. For example, negotiations with Brussels as the first firm proposals and are currently under way on the size of the EU draft regulations for the next European funding budget for 2014-2020. That will determine the period, which is 2014 to 2020, have emerged. funding available for the next generation of EU Departments have been following the policy policies and programmes, such as the common debates closely and working to ensure that the agricultural policy, the structural funds and proposals, and the new funding programmes the new research and development framework that will eventually emerge, accommodate our — Horizon 2020 — all of which will be highly regional needs as fully as possible. significant for us. We must, therefore, continue to exploit the unique opportunities that are The Executive have strengthened their European presented to us by the Barroso task force and support infrastructure to assist Departments in opportunities such as our Brussels programme their efforts, funding nine additional European to identify fresh funding opportunities, to secondments, including four desk officers influence policy and, more generally, to further operating from the Executive’s Brussels office. our interests in Europe to help strengthen and Those desk officers are dedicated to supporting support our economy. the Barroso task force working group and its four thematic subgroups. Since taking up President Barroso has invested personally and their posts in early March, they have made politically in this process. In 2007, he was a significant impact. They have opened new the first European leader to visit us following doors and helped Departments to engage more, the agreement on the restoration of devolved maximising the benefits for our businesses and government. He underlined the support of the citizens over the coming year. European Commission for the peace process at an important time in our political and economic A significant and tangible outcome from our development, and he established a task force to collective efforts can be seen in the increased enhance our engagement in Europe, reinforcing drawdown of competitive EU moneys over the our newly established political institutions. last year. The Executive set themselves a target In December 2010, President Barroso again in the Programme for Government of a 20% restated his personal commitment to us when increase in EU competitive funding by March he joined the First Minister and deputy First

128 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13

Minister in opening new premises for our our Executive office in Brussels hosted a Executive’s office in Brussels, and he reinforced plenary session attended by over 50 officials and renewed the work of the task force. from the European Commission and our own Departments. That focused on the current In response, through the Barroso task force world and European economic context and the working group, we have built up a strong strategic thrust that will be necessary in 2012- infrastructure of our own, allowing us to work 13 to stimulate growth and help regions such as with the Commission task force to engage ours recover from recession. The session was effectively in Europe and, through mechanisms chaired jointly by the lead Commission official such as the Programme for Government, to on the Barroso task force and the head of the mainstream Europe within the Executive and Executive office in Brussels and was addressed Departments. The Barroso task force working by the director general of DG Regio and the group aims to promote participation in EU permanent secretary of the Department of policy development that will benefit the region; Enterprise, Trade and Investment, David Sterling. engagement in European networks, allowing The Brussels programme also provided junior us to benchmark our performance and learn Minister Anderson and me with the opportunity from best practice across Europe in the delivery to raise specific issues of importance. of services to citizens and businesses; and the drawdown of resources from competitive During the first six months of 2013, Ireland EU funding programmes, strengthening our will take on the presidency of the European economy and delivering competitive advantage Council. It is expected to preside over key EU to our businesses. Through the group and its decisions such as, possibly, the agreement various subgroups, we aim to harness European of the EU budget, the future of the common programmes and policies to help us make agricultural policy and the cohesion policy. We progress across a number of areas, including used the opportunity of the visit to explore competitiveness and employment; innovation with the Irish Permanent Representation to and technology; climate change and energy; and the EU areas where we could contribute to and social cohesion. benefit from this important Irish presidency. For example, the possibility of secondments of our Recognising the time-limited advantage that civil servants to Irish Departments was raised, the Barroso task force offers us, we have, even following agreement in principle at a previous in the current difficult financial environment, North/South Ministerial Council. One civil provided additional resources to boost the servant has already been seconded to the Irish number of our Brussels-based officials to Permanent Representation in Brussels to assist ensure that every opportunity for greater in the presidency. This is a rare and important European success is being maximised. opportunity for our officials to gain first-hand experience at a time when decisions will be In respect of our engagement with and the made that will impact on us all for many years outcomes from the Brussels programme, we to come. have strengthened significantly our engagement with the European Commission, following We met our MEPs Jim Nicholson and Diane and building on the previous inward visit to Dodds, as well as staff from Bairbre De Brún’s Belfast by the Commission task force in March office, and we briefed them on the recent work 2011. While there, we were able to outline to of the task force. Since the Lisbon treaty came the Commission areas where we have made into force, the European Parliament has become significant progress against our targets during a co-legislator in important policy areas such 2011 and 2012. as agriculture and fisheries and our cohesion policy. That reinforces the need for us to work Our most recent visit to Brussels gave us once proactively with our MEPs in promoting our more an opportunity to express our appreciation regional agenda. for the work of the Commission task force, including the work of Walter Deffaa, who is the As Ministers, we are keen to further our recently appointed director general of DG Regio. contribution to the EU’s efforts to increase In addition, it gave us unprecedented access its role in peace-building and conflict to Commission officials. Over three days, 54 resolution throughout the world. The European meetings took place, involving 35 Civil Service Commission, in the Barroso task force report, officials from all our Departments. In addition, committed to working with us to examine how

129 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 that might be done. The European External the COSME programme, the competitiveness Action Service, as the European Union’s foreign programme for small to medium enterprises, policy arm, is currently considering how the which aims to provide support for European Union can develop its role in that entrepreneurship through better access to area. It is, therefore, an opportune time for us financial and enhanced support services, the to join the discussions. This is particularly so in regional smart specialisation strategies and light of the EU’s recent decision to award £12 Horizon 2020, which is the European Union’s million towards the construction of a peace- future framework programme for research and building and reconciliation centre at Maze/ innovation. Possible funding applications under Long Kesh This was of particular interest to the European innovation partnership were also members of the cabinet of Vice President explored, with a focus on agricultural productivity Catherine Ashton, the High Representative and sustainability. of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, and to officials in the European Officials in the competitiveness and employment External Action Service, with whom we had very policy group discussed opportunities to address positive meetings. the EU-wide issue — an issue close to many Members’ hearts, including mine — of youth We also discussed these developments with unemployment. They discussed also the current Jane Morrice, one of our members on the proposals to use uncommitted funding from Economic and Social Committee. Jane was existing programmes to address the problem. rapporteur for her Committee’s formal opinion Their discussions also covered Erasmus for on the role of the EU in helping to resolve All, the new future programme for education, international conflicts. Her report lays particular training, youth and sport. It will replace the emphasis on the relevance of our peace existing Lifelong Learning Programme. Other process to conflict resolution in other parts of issues covered included the European social the world. It was adopted by the Committee fund and vocational excellence. on 19 January this year and further underlines the potential for the centre at Maze/Long Kesh 1.45 pm to play a major role in international conflict Problems posed by an ageing population prevention and resolution. — we should celebrate having an ageing We took the opportunity of our meeting with population — provided a particular focus for the director general of DG Regio, Walter Deffaa, the social cohesion group’s policy discussions. to discuss the future direction of European Specifically, officials were interested in exploring cohesion policy, including the possibility of funding for innovative approaches to the a further Peace programme. In his role, Mr problem. They also looked for opportunities to Deffaa will have an important influence in the share examples of local best practice in this current structural funds negotiations. We also area, such as the success with the creation discussed Commissioner Hahn’s proposal to of a Commissioner for Older People and our host an event in Brussels to showcase projects combined health and social care system. funded by the Peace programme to a wider Other members of the social cohesion theme international audience, which is scheduled for focused on funding opportunities relating to early 2013. young people who are disenfranchised, justice, culture and community-led regeneration. The With regard to departmental engagement in meetings explored existing and future funding Brussels, just as structural funds are important opportunities. to our future economic growth, so are the many competitive EU programmes that are available During meetings with the Commission, the to us now and in the future. Those opportunities climate and energy group members impressed were explored in some depth through a series with examples of how our experience could of meetings with the Commission and our provide insight into a regional approach for the officials in each of the Executive’s policy priority EU adaptation strategy and how our approach groups. Those in the innovation and technology to low-carbon technology and renewables could group covered topics such as the future funding drive ambitious targets. Officials highlighted programmes for 2014-2020, with particular the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute’s emphasis on supporting and growing our successful research into agricultural carbon small to medium enterprises. They explored sequestration and held constructive meetings

130 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 on transport policy, including electric vehicles be worth around €50 billion and €80 billion and the transnational funding of projects under respectively. During this year, we expect to the Trans-European Network programme. For consolidate our preparations for the new EU Members interested in finding out more, we will funding period so that, by the end of 2013, each provide a more detailed report on the Brussels Department will have a well-developed project engagement programme, which will be laid in pipeline in place, allowing them to tap in to the the Assembly Library shortly. new EU funding programmes as soon as they are launched. I now turn to our European priorities for 2012- 13 and our next steps. As we move forward, it is We also believe that our performance needs important that we maintain the significant to be seen in context, if our success is to be momentum that has been built up as a result of honestly and fairly measured. Our performance the Brussels engagement programme. Follow-up in year 1 has been good, but, on a relative actions are being pursued, and bilateral contacts basis, compared with other regions, the picture between Departments and the Commission is still unclear. For the year ahead – year 2 – services have been strengthened. Early we will place greater emphasis on comparing reciprocal programmes by Commission officials our relative drawdown with the best performing are expected, and one has already taken place, regions in Europe. Engaging positively by dealing with health and the digital agenda. extending partnerships and collaboration across all key policies and programmes will do much to Today, we published our ‘European Priorities make that possible and to advance our learning 2011-12 Implementation Report’ and our and knowledge. We will also work closely with ‘European Priorities 2012-13’. Both documents our MEPs and other representatives to the EU can be found in the Assembly Library. Hard to exert maximum influence on decisions in copies are available from the Business Office, Brussels that are important to us. and Members will be able to download them from the OFMDFM website following this The Barroso task force represents a significant debate. Their publication represents another political and resource investment by the European tangible step forward and a restatement of the Commission in the region as part of its Executive’s commitment to this work. contribution to helping us maintain a momentum towards a peaceful and shared society and Given our success to date, we will continue towards economic recovery. The Executive, in turn, to focus on the four broad themes — recognise the need to match the Commission’s competiveness and employment; innovation continued prioritisation of the region with an and technology; climate change and energy; appropriate level of resource and effort. In so and social cohesion — that we adopted last doing, we will realise the greatest benefits from year. Our aims and objectives have, however, our EU membership for our businesses and our been updated and aligned with European Union people. As junior Ministers with responsibility objectives for the current year, with the details for this work, we will continue to encourage and we currently have on the 2014-2020 EU funding support Departments in their efforts, helping period and with our Programme for Government. them to implement their individual priorities and As was the case last year, an implementation deliver even greater collective success, plan setting targets for each of the objectives strengthening our economy and building a identified under each theme is being developed. shared and better future for us all. The Barroso task force working group will monitor progress quarterly and provide the Mr Nesbitt (The Chairperson of the Committee Executive with a formal six-month progress for the Office of the First Minister and deputy report in the autumn. First Minister): I thank the Minister for his update. Members will be aware that the Now that we have a reinforced infrastructure in Committee for the Office of the First Minister place to support the drawdown of EU moneys, and deputy First Minister was one of a number our intention is to build on last year’s success of Committees to respond to Ministers on by broadening the range of competitive EU the Executive’s draft European priorities. An funding streams that Departments target and implementation plan was referenced on a by working to influence the ongoing negotiations number of occasions during that process and on key funding sources, such as the Connecting again by the Minister in the House today. Given Europe Facility and Horizon 2020, which will that it is nearly June, can the Minister tell us

131 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 when we can expect to see the implementation invited me to visit projects aimed at tackling plan for 2012-13, and will he confirm that it will it. I welcome the energy that there is in north contain SMART targets? Belfast for tackling that critical issue.

Mr Bell: I cannot give the exact date, because When we look down at our programme of it is being developed by our officials. I welcome engagement, we are looking, as an Executive, at the constructive contribution that the Committee lifting and improving our European engagement. has made, and I hope that it will continue to As I outlined, the success will be in the priorities help us to influence the budgets and the policy that we lay down for 2012-13. In addition to the for the 2014-2020 period. plenary session at the Brussels office, each of our four thematic groups — I will not go over We are meeting the first of the SMART targets them — had its own programme of meetings. by being strategic. We are taking what President There were 54 meetings across three days Barroso has committed and the interest that the with Commission officials and 14 directorates EU is giving to assisting Northern Ireland, and general. I think that that will draw down success we want to respond positively. As I regard it, we in and of itself. can either use the expertise of the European Union that President Barroso has offered us and The reason junior Minister Anderson and I were all of that energy and talent, or, effectively, we in Brussels was to support all Departments’ can lose it. efforts in European engagement. The responsibility of the four thematic groups and In terms of the SMART target being achievable, the associated individual Departments is to the Executive have already responded positively. ensure that the objectives identified during the The Committee has seen where we have programme of engagement are met. We will committed significant extra resources. They are follow each of those programmes closely. We measured against our own European priorities, must not lose the momentum of the programme and they are time framed, in that we are of engagement, and we are confident that all operating in 2011, 2012 and 2013. We are also of our Departments will work to meet their proactively looking towards the future, which is objectives that were set out in the Executive’s the 2014-2020 period. That is the time frame priorities of 2012-13. As I said, a report of the that we will operate against, and we will build on entire programme is being prepared by officials, the good contacts that we have already made. and we will place a copy in the Library as soon We will follow through on every policy and every as possible for you to peruse. programme that we think has even a modicum of success in bringing development and growth Mr Molloy: Go raibh maith agat. I congratulate back to Northern Ireland from Brussels. the junior Ministers on the drive they have put into the Barroso task force. Will the junior Mr Speaker: Quite a number of Members want Minister tell us what the position is on Peace to make a contribution to the statement, so I IV? Last term, I was at a meeting of OFMDFM ask Members to please be brief in coming to with Lord Trimble, who was saying at that their question. I call William Humphrey. That is time that he would not support the future no reflection on the Member. programme. We all know how important Peace Mr Humphrey: I have picked up the hint, Mr funding has been to this programme and Speaker. I thank the junior Minister for his this Assembly: has that had any influence on statement. I welcome his comments about unionism and the Conservative Government in tackling youth unemployment in north Belfast. their representation to Europe? What future do It is a huge issue, and I welcome that being we have for Peace IV? included in the statement. What is the junior Mr Bell: We are pressing very hard at every Minister’s view on the outcome of European opportunity and in every meeting for Peace engagement? IV. I do not think anyone could point to one Mr Bell: The outcome will be, in a number of opportunity that we have missed to put that ways, what we have managed to draw down in forward. Thank you for the warm remarks on the additional funding, how that has stimulated engagement in Europe. I know that the Member growth and how that has affected areas with works hard, as will a future colleague of mine, youth unemployment. I know that is of particular Trevor Cummings, in the Committee of the interest to him in north Belfast as he has Regions, and we look forward to that constant

132 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 engagement of regional support for the work of the Irish Government in drawing down funding that we are doing. from the EU. How many officials do we have based in Brussels compared with the Irish Government? We would welcome a further round of EU Peace funding very much. The work of peace-building is Mr Bell: I have a responsibility in Northern not complete. The recession has created future Ireland but I do not have responsibility for and further challenges, particularly among young the number of officials the Irish Government people such as we heard from earlier, for whom have in Brussels. I thank Mr Eastwood for his unemployment is increasing and there may be positive comments about the engagement in fewer opportunities for education and training. Europe. I have shown conclusively where the I fear that some evil groups in our society will Executive have put in additional resources. Even seek to prey on those vulnerable young people. against the backdrop of a recession, we have The particular content of any future Peace put in four desk officers to cover the key areas. programme will be established through research We will ensure, and have been ensuring, that and public consultation, and a further round those desk officers are fully and adequately of Peace funding could focus on the needs of resourced for the task that they are doing. We marginalised and disaffected youth. have already seen in year 1 that we are well on Junior Minister Anderson and I recently had the our way not only to meeting an ambitious target privilege of handing out awards to a group from but, potentially, to exceeding it. I will get you the Craigavon/Lurgan area, where a specific information on the precise number of officials two-year programme was put in through Co- that we have; I presume that you would have operation Ireland to help young people who were to ask the Irish Government to get the precise at risk and to give them a two-year development number of officials that they have. President plan. Those young people were entrusted Barroso has given us energy; we will match that with something like half a million pounds of with energy and commitment. We will leave no communications equipment. Not only did they stone unturned in bringing back to Northern complete their programmes; some of them have Ireland from Brussels the maximum amount that gone on to achieve full-time jobs. we can. I have put out the figures honestly and squarely; we are already exceeding the targets We need to potentially focus on the needs of that we have set ourselves. our marginalised and disaffected young people. Through the task force and direct engagement Mr Lyttle: I thank the Minister for his statement with the Commissioner for Regional Policy, and welcome his positive endorsement of the Johannes Hahn, and in our dealings with potential benefit to our citizens and businesses Westminster and Dublin, we have pressed as a result of engagement with Europe. I agree at every stage for a Peace IV programme. with the Chair of the OFMDFM Committee, We are encouraged by the provision to fund however: in the absence of an action plan and peace-building actions in the draft territorial targets, it is difficult to assess the full ambition co-operation regulations that are published by of the plan. What existing and future European the European Commission and by the United funding opportunities are available to assist our Kingdom and Irish Governments’ declared small and medium-sized businesses? support for Peace IV. Mr Bell: Sometimes, strategies and action In pursuing that, we will seek to ensure that plans are important — I will get that to you Peace IV provides additional funding to the as soon as I possibly can — but the reality is region and does not merely displace other also important; that was the “R” in the SMART European Union funding sources. Junior Minister targets that were set. The reality is that, under Anderson and I will continue to closely monitor the first year of our watch, we have drawn down the negotiations and will always lobby the more than we wanted to. We will always take United Kingdom Government through the Joint more than we want at every stage, and in a Ministerial Committee in Europe. situation that is very difficult — you see the situation in Greece and everything else — and 2.00 pm constantly changing, we will seek to maximise Mr Eastwood: I thank the junior Minister for his and go beyond the 20% that we have set statement. I welcome the fact that he stated ourselves. We have done it in year 1 and we that he intends to learn from the good example look to do it in future.

133 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13

Mr Lyttle raised a vital question about the in meeting European Commission officials in important issue of other European funding Brussels to discuss how we can contribute opportunities and securing greater EU financial to and benefit from the 2012 European Year support for Northern Ireland. The House will be for Active Ageing and Solidarity between aware that EU structural funds are allocated Generations. That is vital. For example, I was at national level and that we receive a fixed with the chief executive of the South Eastern percentage of that amount. Scope to increase Trust recently to discuss my constituency that funding is very limited, which is why we, as of Strangford, and I thought that we should the Northern Ireland Executive, set a target for celebrate and thank God for the fact that our increasing our drawdown from competitive EU elderly people are getting older. They have funding steams. The success in competitive contributed a lot to society, and as we have European funding programmes takes time and been seeing in the Pensioners Parliament, sustained effort and requires us to network with they have a huge amount more to contribute. other European Union regions to demonstrate However, because of the people who are living our regional strengths and expertise and build longer, we in Strangford have to prepare for on our experience as junior partners before we a town that is equivalent to the size of a new can seek credibly to lead in larger projects. Ballynahinch. We want to be proactive, and we have discussed with the European External As far as small and medium-sized enterprises Action Service how we might contribute and (SMEs) are concerned, we are developing our share our experience in Northern Ireland through future research and development strategy. You supporting an enhanced European Union role in have seen the Horizon 2020 proposals. Under peace building. those, we will allocate around 17% to small and medium-sized enterprises. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: I remind Members that Question Time starts at 2.30 pm. (Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] I want to try to get through all the questions and in the Chair) answers before then.

Moving on to the work that is being undertaken, Mr G Robinson: Will the junior Minister enlarge the Department for Employment and Learning on what impact he believes our European (DEL) has looked at matching labour market priorities have had in 2011-12? What potential supply with demands in Estonia. That has is there for Northern Ireland to benefit from allowed it to explore potential project ideas developments in health, technology and and possible future partnerships. Where innovation? SMEs are concerned, in February 2012, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment Mr Bell: I am happy to do that, and as I am (DETI) appointed a SMART specialisation co- conscious of the time frame, I will briefly report. ordinator to lead the SMART specialisation There has been considerable success over strategy for the region. DEL has established the past year in engaging policy development, an EU framework support fund of £80,000 per strengthening networks and increasing the annum to encourage our universities to apply number of officials on secondment in Europe, for funding from framework programme 7 for as well as in a range of EU funding streams. research and innovation. In the area of SMEs, We also hope that we have laid the groundwork each Department has been actively targeting the for what we hope will be future success. We current programmes in framework programme 7, have nine more staff in Brussels than we did including the trans-European Transport Network, a year ago, and as I said to Mr Eastwood, the known as TEN-T, the Progress programme and four desk officers who took up post in March the European Union culture fund, and we are are providing dedicated support to deliver also preparing for the arrival of the next funding on the European priorities of 2012-13. A programmes. It is vital that the Northern Ireland finance subgroup was established to deliver Executive are proactive and seek, in the next progress against the Executive’s Programme round of funding programmes, including through for Government target of a 20% increase in Horizon 2020, to look at how we can maximise drawdown from EU competitive funding sources. our drawdown from 2014. It is important to note that, in comparison with the previous year, we have drawn down an I should also say in conclusion, Mr Lyttle, that additional £4·9 million in 2011-12. That is a junior Minister Anderson and I have been active fact. Northern Ireland applicants secured a total

134 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 of €36·4 million from framework programme will also meet the Executive subcommittee 7 for research and development between the on the economy and separately with the start of the programme in 2007 and the end of First Minister and the deputy First Minister. October 2011. We will be active in shaping and In addition, she will visit the Agri-food and preparing for its successor programme, Horizon Biosciences Institute and the Northern Ireland 2020, so that we can take it forward from 2014. advanced composites and engineering centre at I will pull back there because I know that there Bombardier. are a number of questions. Mr Buchanan: I thank the junior Minister for Ms J McCann: Go raibh maith agat, a his statement. Will Northern Ireland seek to LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister secure funding through the European innovation for his statement and for some of the very partnership on active and healthy ageing? positive things that he said in response to other Mr Bell: We will seek to secure not only that people’s questions, particularly on small and funding, but funding through every opportunity medium-sized businesses. Now that we have a that we have. We have built up some expertise better support mechanism over there, he will be in Northern Ireland, which is regarded at a aware that the Irish Government have taken 100 European level as a success. I do not say that SMEs over to Europe to encourage them to build lightly; I say because I sit in Brussels and I the capacity to drawdown moneys. Would the listen to what the commissioners are telling Minister be of a mind to do something similar me. The First Minister and the deputy First with small and medium-sized businesses from Minister put in place a comprehensive role for the North? the Commissioner for Older People. In many Mr Bell: It is a very well-made point. That places across Europe, that legislation has been is obviously a priority for DETI, but we have regarded as a success. been keen, whether from a culture, arts or The relevant commissioners are looking to business perspective, to bring our businesses where we in Northern Ireland have already been to the Northern Ireland Executive office and successful in our work on active ageing and allow them to use the facilities to showcase solidarity between the generations. We hope their products. DETI has led a programme to to have a number of events and have Northern maximise framework programme drawdown and Ireland’s good progress profiled. Take it from has produced 18 recommendations designed to here that no stone will be left unturned in any increase Northern Ireland’s success. of the funding streams. We have proven that Part of that success has been in bringing already by the significant success that we have over some of those local businesses as part had in year 1. of DETI’s international trade missions, and Mr Kinahan: I thank the junior Minister for his I welcome that. I know, particularly from the statement. I am very impressed by the number work of the First Minister and the deputy First of meetings and discussions and the amount of Minister in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates and research, but until we get actions and timelines, India, that the feedback from Northern Ireland’s we have really just got seven pages of waffle here. businesses is that they got unprecedented access because of the opportunities that I want to focus on ERASMUS and the 50 were afforded to them by the OFMDFM visits officials who met to discuss the economic to the United Arab Emirates and India. Among context and strategy. When are we going to its recommendations, DETI has included the hear, either in actions or summaries, what sort appointment of a Horizon 2020 manager, of skills and training we need to put in place hopefully in place by September 2012, and in Northern Ireland so that there are jobs for thematic leads based in our two universities. our young people, whether in Northern Ireland, Europe or even globally? The Member may also want to know that Commissioner Máire Geoghegan-Quinn will visit Mr Bell: I thank the Member for his positive Belfast on 7 June to speak at the Collaborate remarks at the start, which I understand. He to Innovate conference on FP7, the focus of talked about waffle, but we have increased which will be on encouraging greater small and the amount of funding for young people in medium-sized enterprise involvement in FP7 and our area and increased the amount of growth Horizon 2020. Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn opportunities for economic development in

135 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 our area. You know, Mr Kinahan, I used to support 4,500 of our young people who are not sing a hymn when I was at primary school and in education, employment or training between receiving free school meals. [Interruption.] I 2007 and 2013. If you think that a target of promise that I will not sing it now, but it spoke supporting 4,500 of our young people is waffle, of the rich man in his castle and the poor man you are very much out of date in your castle. at his gate. Until I met you, Mr Kinahan, I did not realise that people in Northern Ireland still lived The European social fund programme is in castles. supporting the Apprenticeships Northern Ireland programme, which offers the opportunity — Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: I remind all [Interruption.] Members to make their remarks through the Chair. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Order.

Mr Bell: We have drawn down more money Mr Bell: It offers individuals the opportunity to from Europe and increased the amount of train in their chosen occupation. For an Ulster opportunities for our young people in Europe. Unionist to say that 82 voluntary and community Both of our universities, which are collaborating sector groups and £10 million is waffle, you are on the programmes that I have already outlined, so much out of date in your castle. are stepping up to the plate and will be Mr Doherty: Go raibh maith agat, a Phriomh- disappointed with the Member’s description of LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for their work as waffle. his statement. Minister, you said:

Look at the Department for Employment and “The Executive have strengthened their European Learning and its work in the trans-European support infrastructure” consortium, under the PROGRESS programme and in the New Skills for New Jobs project in and: July 2011. That project aims to contribute to the “It is an important time to make our voice heard in European Union’s effort to meet its ambitious Brussels.” employment rate target of 75% for women and men in the 20 to 64 years age group by 2020. Is it the intention of the Executive to further I have already outlined the success in terms of strengthen our infrastructure in Europe, additional drawdown. particularly in relation to accessing the Connecting Europe facility and Horizon 2020 2.15 pm funding sources?

In the area of youth unemployment, European Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: I remind funding has provided significant support for Members that Question Time is coming up and our Executive’s efforts to tackle directly youth that we will have to come back to this after unemployment and the issues of young people Question Time if we do not get through it all. who are not in education, employment or Can we have precise answers? training (NEETs). That is addressed under the thematic group’s key aim, which is basically Mr Bell: Yes. We will do all that we can. The equipping our young people with the skills and Department for Regional Development (DRD) the ambition that they need to contribute to received £2·9 million — the economy. European social fund assistance has been given to 82 voluntary and community Mr B McCrea: More waffle. sector organisations — there is an action — to Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Order. support the employability of individuals who face barriers to participation in the workforce. Mr Bell: I appreciate that the Ulster Unionists Mr Kinahan, if you think for one second that want to shout down £2·9 million, but that supporting 82 voluntary and community amount was delivered during 2011-12 for sector organisations to help young people get the TEN-T programme. The new draft TEN-T employment and face and overcome the barriers regulations are going through the ordinary to employment is waffle, you are very much legislative procedure in Europe, and DRD is mistaken. There are also a number of projects doing all that it can to influence the negotiations with a value of £10 million that are aimed in Europe to ensure the best possible outcome specifically at re-engaging young people who for Northern Ireland. For example — the Ulster are NEETs. Priority one of the programme is to Unionists should listen to this instead of trying

136 Monday 28 May 2012 Ministerial Statements: European Priorities 2012-13 to shout down their own Minister — DRD has Mr Allister: If wasting EU money on this Provo been instrumental in securing amendments — project is now a DUP success, was Nigel Dodds wrong? Mr B McCrea: [Interruption.] Mr Bell: The only person who is wrong, Mr Mr Bell: They are shouting down their own Allister, is you. There will be no shrine, and there Minister. will be no “Provo project”. We need to be very Mr B McCrea: No, you are — careful. I met a number of victims yesterday when I was with the Royal Ulster Constabulary Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Order. If the on its 90th anniversary and its 10-year Minister is to reply and we are to hear that reply, celebration of the awarding of the George Cross. we have to give him the space to do so. The I know that it is politics, but we need to try to Minister has the Floor. be sensitive and try not to take meaningless advantage when someone of your intelligence Mr Bell: DRD has been instrumental in securing knows the difference. To try to play party politics amendments in the Danish presidency’s with the needs of victims and survivors is very general approach to the regulations, including wrong indeed. There will be no shrine and no an exemption from certain rail standards for “Provo project”. isolated rail networks such as our own. If those amendments are adopted in the final What Europe is looking towards and what we are regulations, they could save the Executive — I looking towards is the success story that is will finish with this — up to £1·5 billion in Northern Ireland. It is a success story about how unnecessary expenditure. That is not to be young people are today, Mr Allister, living with shouted down. the lowest levels of violence in Northern Ireland than has been the case in the lifetime of anyone Mr B McCrea: I wonder whether the Minister will in this House. Should we not celebrate that deal with my question precisely or whether he success and the fact that our people and young will waffle. His statement referred to the world people have the opportunity to live at a time and European economic context and all sorts when we have the lowest level of violence ever? of financial interests. Did his colleague and he differ in their advice on the EU fiscal treaty? Will Contrary to what you are telling us, Europe he care to tell us what the position was of the is telling us that Northern Ireland is a real two Ministers on that important matter? success story and that Northern Ireland can contribute to the building of peace, showing not Mr Bell: I hate to enlighten the Member, but only what we have done here but what we can that is not something that we have ministerial do internationally. Our universities are telling responsibility for. us that they have an academic base and an academic infrastructure that can show to the Mr Allister: The aspect of the Minister’s world the success of peace in Northern Ireland. Europhile statement that I wish to focus on is It can show not only what it has achieved but its trumpeting of the Provo project at the Maze. what it is currently achieving. That was never troubled to be announced in the House — You said that my statement is “Europhile”. If bringing additional millions of euros to Northern Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Question. Ireland — Mr Allister: Of course, it was once eschewed by Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: You are getting the Minister’s party when his deputy leader said: close to the end of your time. “However it is dressed up, whatever spin is Mr Bell: — qualifies me as Europhile, I stand deployed, the preservation of a section of the guilty. H-Blocks … would become a shrine to the terrorists … That would be obnoxious”. Ms Ruane: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- If wasting EU money — LeasCheann Comhairle. I pay tribute to the two junior Ministers, and I wish my colleague Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: I ask the Member Martina all the best in Europe. I have no doubt for a question. that we will all continue to work with our MEPs.

137 Monday 28 May 2012

In March, the junior Ministers led a delegation 2.30 pm of officials to engage with officials in the Commission in Brussels. Will you outline how the recent focus on this will ensure more Assembly Business funding for us in the North of Ireland? Mr McCartney: On a point of order, Mr Principal Mr Bell: There are four key areas, including Deputy Speaker. competitiveness, employment and social cohesion. I will not go through them all in detail Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Point of order, Mr because of what Mr Principal Deputy Speaker McCartney. said about time. We have ensured that we Mr McCartney: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- have nine extra bodies and brains working on LeasCheann Comhairle. In previous mandates, the project to ensure that we influence the the Speaker made rulings in relation to the heat budget, not only today but for 2014-2020. It and the wearing of jackets. I wonder whether the is interesting that some of those with critical Principal Deputy Speaker will make a ruling on voices, having made their party political that? statement, have run from the Chamber. They are not interested in what we will do for 2014- Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Yes, if anyone 2020, yet President Barroso, probably the most feels that they want to take off their coat because key figure in the European Union, said that he of the heat in the Chamber, we will allow that to will significantly assist Northern Ireland. He has happen today under the circumstances. told us to use the resources and not lose them. We will engage directly with the Commission in Brussels. We will build on every good contact that we have achieved.

We will push every policy and programme area. We are exceeding our 20% targets. That is OK; we are happy to exceed them but we will leave no stone unturned in maximising to Northern Ireland the benefits that we currently get from Europe.

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: As Question Time commences at 2.30 pm, I suggest that the House takes its ease until that time. The next item of business will be Question Time. After Question Time, there will be a debate on the legislative consent motion on the Finance Bill.

138 Monday 28 May 2012

Oral Answers to Questions Ms Ní Chuilín: I will. I do share some of the concerns that have been repeated throughout Question Time on this. Cricket, like other sports, is receiving quite a lot of interest, and it is Culture, Arts and Leisure important that people who want to get involved in sport have the opportunity to do so. We will Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Questions 2 and be focusing, particularly with grass roots clubs 10 have been withdrawn and require written and within communities, to try to provide support answers. that will result in a bigger uptake in sport. It is important that I keep that under review. Cricket: Funding Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Question 2 has 1. Mr Wells asked the Minister of Culture, been withdrawn. Arts and Leisure how much funding has been allocated to cricket over the past five years. (AQO 2046/11-15) Entertainment Venues: Closing Time 3. Mr Agnew asked the Minister of Culture, Arts Ms Ní Chuilín (The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for her assessment of the impact and Leisure): Sport NI is responsible for the of a 2.00 am closing time on night-time culture distribution of funding for sport here. In the past five financial years, Sport NI has provided and musical art in Northern Ireland. almost £4 million of Exchequer and lottery (AQO 2048/11-15) funding to Cricket Ireland to assist with the Ms Ní Chuilín: The closing time of pubs and development of cricket. As part of that funding, clubs, as I am sure the Member is aware, is Sport NI is supporting the employment of a not a matter for the Department of Culture, club development manager by the governing Arts and Leisure (DCAL). I understand that the body of cricket, Cricket Ireland. That manager is 2.00 am closing time was introduced under a based in Belfast and is responsible for providing voluntary arrangement between Pubs of Ulster, advice and guidance to cricket at all levels on which represents pubs and nightclubs, the PSNI development and funding opportunities. and licensees. The arrangement has resulted Mr Wells: As the Minister is aware, several in a number of establishments closing at 2.00 players from this part of the United Kingdom am since April even though they hold a 3.00 have played for the Ireland cricket team. am entertainments licence. My Department, Indeed, that team had historic wins over Test- through the Arts Council, supports a wide range playing nations such as Zimbabwe, England of musical art activities. The vast majority of and Pakistan. Cricket is clearly a growing sport, those activities, if not all, would be finished long yet would she agree with me that the amount before 2.00 am, and, therefore, they have not of funding that has been allocated to this said to me that they are affected by those new international sport is tiny in comparison with arrangements. that allocated to, for instance, rugby, GAA and Mr Agnew: I thank the Minister for her answer. soccer? Minister, I appreciate what you said, but if we Ms Ní Chuilín: I share with the Member his talk about culture such as night-time music concerns about perhaps the feeling that cricket culture and things along those lines, and given receives smaller amounts of funding compared how we are quite out of step with the rest of with other sports. However, it is only in recent Europe, does the Minister not believe that times, with the success of the cricket team, that greater liberalisation of our entertainment laws we are all enjoying and, indeed, supporting that would help our night-time culture and economy? team. I would imagine in future comprehensive Ms Ní Chuilín: I have spoken, through my spending review (CSR) bids that perhaps the constituency office, to licensees who have amount of money to cricket will increase. expressed concern, particularly at the need for Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- better support from the Executive for the night- LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister assure time economy through pubs and clubs. At the us that the opportunities for funding for all minute, we are looking at the disparity between sports, including cricket, will be made known to the entertainments and the licences, but, at the the grass roots groupings and clubs? end of the day, the sector itself has been very

139 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers good at lobbying. It had an opportunity last year Department provides annually to the Arts but, unfortunately, it did not get passed through Council for the scheme. the House. I will receive requests from that sector, if it is appropriate, but it is not within my Mrs Hale: I thank the Minister for her answer. gift to influence any changes in licensing laws or Does she agree that the current £5,000 limit entertainment licences. placed on funding applications is excessively restrictive on pipe bands, accordion bands, Mr Brady: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann brass bands and silver bands, given that the Comhairle. Has DCAL been involved in any average price of bagpipes and accordions is discussions with Pubs of Ulster regarding the £1,000 and £600 respectively? potential impact on art and culture events? Ms Ní Chuilín: I hear what the Member has to Ms Ní Chuilín: I have not been involved in say. I met the Confederation of Bands, which such discussions as a Minister. As I said to raised the issue as well, and we passed that Mr Agnew, I was in discussions with regard to on to the Arts Council. It is one of the practical lobbying through my constituency, as, I am sure, arrangements that we need to look at in the were other MLAs, but the voluntary arrangement future. Given the cost of some of the musical was then reached. That is the last that I have instruments, they need to be factored into heard. DCAL has not been approached officially the award. You cannot apply for two sets of in relation to the matter. funding for the same thing, and the money is not available in the communities to make up the Mr Copeland: Given the fact that one prominent difference. It will, therefore, have an impact. We nightclub in Belfast has already left the voluntary need to work out whether we can and how we arrangement to close at 2.00 am, can you detail can make a difference in this. I hear what the the degree of engagement, if any, that you have Member has to say. had with the various entertainment sectors to facilitate a future agreement that strikes an Mr Lynch: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- appropriate balance and is acceptable to all? LeasCheann Comhairle. What funding is available for bands in the North? Ms Ní Chuilín: I will repeat what I said to Mickey Brady. It is not within the remit of DCAL Ms Ní Chuilín: As I said to Mrs Hale, over to do that. The issues around licences are for £800,000 has been made available. That was the Department of the Environment and the £200,000 a year. Grants for equipment are up Department for Social Development. to £10,000, and the equipment programme for funds for over £10,000 is available. As I said, Musical Instruments for Bands bands can apply for that funding through the Programme Arts Council. 4. Mrs Hale asked the Minister of Culture, Mrs McKevitt: Following the Department’s study Arts and Leisure whether she has any plans to into marching bands in the North of Ireland, increase the £200,000 provision to the Arts several opportunities for development were Council for musical instruments grants, given identified. Given the importance of marching the impact that the marching band sector has in bands in preserving cultural and musical terms of social impact, cultural promotion and traditions, what has the Minister done to tourism. (AQO 2049/11-15) actively build on the areas for development?

Ms Ní Chuilín: The musical instruments Ms Ní Chuilín: The areas for development of for bands scheme is a highly successful some bands are financially based, and they programme, and I am pleased that it has need additional resources that I do not have, provided over £800,000 to bands across the but the areas for development of others are North over the past five years. Marching bands around governance and getting the band are an important element of our culture and constituted. At this stage, that is what is musical heritage, and I am keen to support the happening through NICVA. There is a toolkit development of organisations that encourage available on the website to help bands reach young people to learn to play an instrument. the criteria they need in order to put them in However, due to budgetary constraints, I have a better place, if they ever decide to apply for no plans to increase the £200,000 that my funding in future years.

140 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers

Mr Elliott: I understand that the Minister’s that it will be really confusing for tourists who predecessor commissioned some research into come here to fish and angle. So, I will initiate marching bands? How is the current Minister discussions with DCAL and the Department of taking that forward? Agriculture and Rural Development.

Ms Ní Chuilín: I am taking the research Mr Campbell: Most tourists who come for forward, and I am going back to have a look at fishing breaks come for a short-stay break. it again to make sure that it is still relevant. Does the Minister agree that it would be a much I am supportive of the initiative. I have met more sensible arrangement to look at short- the marching bands, and I intend to meet stay applications for two, three or four days them again throughout this year. My officials for tourists from whatever country they come, are working very closely to look at possible whether it is the Irish Republic, France, Germany recommendations and any review or revision of or anywhere else? those recommendations to try to put this on a better footing for the next period. We are looking Ms Ní Chuilín: All the conditions of licensing, at this in a very positive way. and even the different types of licences that are purchased, will be examined. There are Fishing Licences only two types of licence in the Loughs Agency, from where you can get a junior permit, whereas 5. Mr Doherty asked the Minister of Culture, DCAL issues up to 17 different types. It is about Arts and Leisure for her assessment of the simplifying that system and making it easier potential benefits of an all-Ireland fishing for people who want to angle. We are looking licence. (AQO 2050/11-15) at this in a very practical and pragmatic way. Ms Ní Chuilín: Three bodies across the island I think that all Members would agree that we of Ireland provide fishing licences for their need to simplify the system rather than further jurisdictions. Those bodies are DCAL, the complicate it. Loughs Agency and Inland Fisheries Ireland. The licensing regimes are all different, reflecting Mr Rogers: Have there been any discussions the different legislation and priorities in each with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and jurisdiction. However, I can see the merit of Investment (DETI) about the promotion of rationalising licensing regimes across the island angling as a tourist opportunity across Ireland? of Ireland. In particular, it would simplify the Ms Ní Chuilín: I have not had any discussions purchase of licences for tourist anglers. about this with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade The current licensing regime recognises that and Investment, but we will be looking at talking there are distinct types of angling, and it allows to DETI officials. It makes sense to make sure anglers to pay only for that which they practise. It that all our Departments are involved in this will be important that any rationalisation protects process, that we get agreement and that we get that principle. I have, therefore, asked my officials a system and regime that simplifies the process to contact colleagues in the other licensing and makes it easier for people, particularly for bodies and their sponsor Departments to initiate our towns and villages that rely on angling as discussions on considering the case of making part of their tourism product. angling licences available across the island.

Mr Doherty: Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Regional Stadium Development Minister for her answer. Does she agree that Programme the system for issuing licences is too complex? Will she consider, along with the Minister of 6. Mr Humphrey asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, the potential Culture, Arts and Leisure for an update on the for an all-Ireland fishing licence? development of Windsor Park, Casement Park and Ravenhill. (AQO 2051/11-15) Ms Ní Chuilín: As I said, I have asked officials to initiate discussions. I have listened to anglers Ms Ní Chuilín: As the Member will know, the from different clubs, and they said that the stadium programme is complex. As regards system of licences being issued from different rugby, planning permission for Ravenhill was Departments is too complex and cumbersome. received earlier this year. The design has been Our own anglers said that, so we need to accept developed, and they will go to tender for a

141 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers contractor in mid-June. The contractor should be be to make sure that everybody, where possible, on site in September. has some opportunity for training, employment, retraining or an apprenticeship and, indeed, will The GAA is out to tender for a design team, have a presence in the three stadia well after which will be appointed by the end of July. It is they are built and delivered. working with the planners on Casement Park’s requirements and has commenced various surveys and agreed the overall programme with DCAL: Arm’s-length Bodies my Department. In addition, it will shortly 7. Mr D Bradley asked the Minister of Culture, commence a consultation process with residents. Arts and Leisure for an update on her The IFA has also agreed its overall programme Department’s review of its arm’s-length bodies. with my Department. It has appointed a design (AQO 2052/11-15) team and is working on the design of Windsor Ms Ní Chuilín: My review of the Department’s Park. It is working with the planners and will arm’s-length bodies started with reviews of submit for planning by the end of the year. It will Sport NI and Museums NI. The reviews are also commence a consultation process shortly. being taken forward in two stages. The first That progress means that it is anticipated that stage considers the continuing need for the rugby will have its stadium by September 2014, functions of each body. It also examines the soccer will have its stadium by June 2015, and the governance and accountability arrangements GAA will have its stadium by September 2015. in place, and the effectiveness and value for money of each body in its current form. The 2.45 pm second stage will consider future delivery options for the functions of each body. Mr Humphrey: I thank the Minister for her reply. Can she tell the House what work DCAL is doing The stage one review for both bodies is nearing with the three sporting bodies to ensure that, in completion and has highlighted some issues. the medium to long term, the stadiums will be I am considering how those issues will be sustainable? addressed before the review team finalises stage one and completes stage two. Ms Ní Chuilín: As I am sure the Member is aware and can appreciate, the whole process Mr D Bradley: Go raibh míle maith agat, a is very detailed. However, sustainability is Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, agus tá an- absolutely key for the three sporting bodies. áthas orm go bhfuil an tAire ag caint liom arís. As well as being about the sustainability of the I am delighted that the Minister is speaking to infrastructure of the three stadia, it is about me again after the last day. Can she confirm achieving sustainability in the communities. that she has withdrawn her edict to arm’s-length Right from the start of the project, which is bodies to channel all announcements through the biggest capital programme in this CSR her? period, we want to ensure that communities are considered. They will certainly be considered Ms Ní Chuilín: I am not really sure what the right at the end, and by that I mean employment Member is referring to. I think that he may be opportunities, training and apprenticeships, as referring to the media communications protocol well as the provision of goods and services. that we are trying to finalise with some arm’s- length bodies. Rather than withdraw it, we are Mr G Kelly: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- progressing with it. Most of the bodies have LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister tell us signed up, and we are still completing the whether there will be strong social clauses that protocol with the rest. affect the neighbourhoods around the stadia? Mr Storey: Will the Minister confirm whether the Ms Ní Chuilín: There absolutely will be strong movement of responsibility for delivery of stadia social clauses. Casement Park is in West development from Sport NI to the Department Belfast, Windsor Park is in South Belfast, and has anything to do with the findings of the Ravenhill is beside the Cregagh estate. All review of Sport NI that is being undertaken? three are distinct areas with distinct needs. Those constituencies need opportunities, but Ms Ní Chuilín: I can confirm that that is not the so do surrounding areas. Therefore, our social case. It was quite obvious, and I said this at the clauses will be as strong as they can possibly time, that the stadia programme was quite big

142 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers for a body such as Sport NI to take on on its the provision of shared spaces for sport that own. There were delays, so I made a decision promote community integration. to make the Department responsible for it to ensure not only that we reached the targets set Dr McDonnell: I thank the Minister for her by the Executive but that the money was spent, answer. Will she tell the House how far down that nothing was returned and that the three the road we are with the 10-year strategy? sporting bodies got what they needed. It has Are we on target, and what is the level of absolutely nothing to do with the review that we achievement? In other words, is the strategy are undertaking of Sport NI. working to schedule, behind schedule or ahead of schedule? Mr Kinahan: I thank the Minister for her answers. Will she detail her work with her Ms Ní Chuilín: I will take the last question first. Executive colleague the Minister of Enterprise, The strategy is not only working to schedule but Trade and Investment on reviewing the excellent is working better than we had anticipated. Can work of NI Screen, given that it is funded by both we do more? Absolutely. We can always do more Departments? to provide better opportunities for reconciliation, integration and cohesion. I honestly believe that Ms Ní Chuilín: Needless to say, the work that the community and voluntary groups that are we are to do is still not finalised. The Minister of involved in participation in sport are the best Enterprise, Trade and Investment and I are not example for all of us. For many years, they have only involved in the work and funding of NI Screen led by example, and Sport Matters complements but are responsible for creative industries and that. If the Member, or anyone else for that taking forward a robust music strategy. So, matter, has suggestions about anything that we work in those three areas is under way. I think have not thought about or that is not included that the Member is trying to say that, through NI in the strategy that would promote better Screen, a lot of Executive resources have been reconciliation and inclusion, I would be really spent, particularly on film and television. We happy to hear about it. want to continue to make sure that that is still value for money, and we are making those areas Mr Humphrey: I very much agree with the broad competitive so that we can attract other thrust of Dr McDonnell’s question. I am proud productions, which will help our economy. to be a member of the green-and-white army, and growing up in north Belfast, my idol was Pat Jennings. Does the Minister agree that any Sport: Reconciliation player born in Northern Ireland, or who has 8. Dr McDonnell asked the Minister of Culture, represented Northern Ireland at youth level, Arts and Leisure for her assessment of the role should play for Northern Ireland and that failure that sport plays in reconciliation in Northern to do so actually damages community relations? Ireland. (AQO 2053/11-15) Ms Ní Chuilín: I do not agree with the Member. Ms Ní Chuilín: I recognise that the development I think that it is a choice for the players, and of sport in the North has in the past been it is down to the sporting bodies. It would be affected and hindered by community tensions irresponsible for someone in my position to try and has, on occasion, reflected segregation. to corral people. I am on the record as saying However, I also believe that well-managed that I would much prefer an all-Ireland team, as sport has played and can play an important did George Best. I honestly believe that there role in reconciliation here. That is recognised would be great support for such a team and in my Department’s 10-year strategy for everything that goes with it. Regardless of what sport and physical recreation, Sport Matters. team people prefer to play for, they have my Sport Matters commits the Government to support. the promotion of sport in the context of a shared and better future, and it encourages Intercultural Arts Strategy sport to embrace and facilitate the process of reconciliation. To achieve that, the strategy 9. Mr McCarthy asked the Minister of Culture, contains a number of targets and actions to Arts and Leisure to outline any discussions she help to promote community cohesion through has had with the First Minister and deputy First sport, including improving participation rates Minister on the recently launched intercultural among under-represented groups of people and arts strategy. (AQO 2054/11-15)

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Ms Ní Chuilín: I have not had any direct I have also seen the work of Draw Down the discussions with the First Minister and deputy Walls in my North Belfast constituency, where First Minister on the Arts Council’s recently people have used the arts at interfaces to talk launched intercultural arts strategy. However, I about some of the very challenging issues that understand that the Arts Council consulted adults sometimes cannot bring themselves to Office of the First Minister and deputy First discuss. I have also seen the role of the arts, Minister (OFMDFM) officials during the through the media of drama and play at St development of the strategy and that an OFMDFM Mary’s recently around the Ulster covenant, and official sits on the implementation group. I have seen the power that that medium has in fostering and developing better relations. I am Mr McCarthy: I thank the Minister for her looking forward to supporting the work that we response. Will the Minister join me in have done thus far in developing and supporting congratulating a young swimmer from my further work to meet those aims. constituency who has just received a silver medal and wish her all success for the upcoming Mr Dallat: I thank the Minister for her answer. Olympic Games? We are very proud of her. Will she outline what steps she has taken to action the different points raised in relation to Given the vital role that the ethnic minority the intercultural arts strategy? development fund will have for all groups availing themselves of the intercultural Ms Ní Chuilín: I am due to meet my arts branch arts strategy, has the Minister discussed in three weeks to look at the actions from with OFMDFM the inordinate delays in the that strategy and, indeed, other outstanding administration of that fund? If not, will she actions in relation to the arts. I think that that engage with the office to distribute those funds is important. I do not think that anyone is doing as soon as possible? this from a mischievous point of view. If there are delays, the rationale for them needs to Ms Ní Chuilín: Taking the last matter first, I be explained to me. We also need to look at have not had discussions with OFMDFM about resolution of delays or perceived delays. I will this fund or about any details surrounding it in certainly be doing that. The meeting will be in terms of delays or anything else. As I said in mid-June, and I am sure that this will come up my answer to a previous question, OFMDFM again in future Question Times. I am happy to officials sit on this body and so will be aware write to the Member on the issue he has raised of this. I will certainly pass the Member’s and provide the answer that he needs. comments on. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Question 10 has Along with others, I congratulate Sycerika been withdrawn. McMahon on her achievement. I think that everyone in this House, and even outside it, is extremely proud of her, her coaches, her family Sport: Health Benefits and her community. 11. Mr McGimpsey asked the Minister of Mr Hazzard: Go raibh maith agat, a Phriomh Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the work she LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for is undertaking, in conjunction with other relevant her answers to date. Does she agree that, as a Departments, to encourage participation in medium, the arts have the potential to improve sport as a contributor to improving health. mutual respect and understanding across and (AQO 2056/11-15) within communities? Ms Ní Chuilín: My Department is, alongside Ms Ní Chuilín: I absolutely do agree. Even other Departments, supporting the Department this morning, in the Long Gallery, there was a of Health, Social Services and Public Safety Services Industrial Professional and Technical in developing a new Investing for Health Union — SIPTU — event, and a group framework. As part of that process, DCAL representing north and west Belfast called has submitted a number of proposals to the Artability. Through the promotion and facilitation Health Department, setting out where sport of the arts, they offer facilities for people with might contribute to the implementation of disabilities who come from what has been the framework. In addition, my Department’s known as both sides of the community, and sports strategy, Sport Matters, contains targets have done so for a long time. designed to increase participation in sport

144 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers across the population. To ensure that these are I agree with the Member that it is necessary delivered, DCAL led a Sport Matters monitoring to ensure that children and young people group, chaired by me, and established to have every opportunity to participate in sport. oversee the implementation of Sport Matters. Recently, I met women who work in the area The group comprises representatives from of sport who asked me to do that, particularly a number of key stakeholder Departments, for young women who do not feel comfortable including Health, Education, Social Development, participating in sport, in schools and outside, Agriculture and Rural Development and perhaps because of changing facilities. We Employment and Learning. must make it easier for women and not take our eye off the ball. It is important that, throughout Mr McGimpsey: I ask the Minister, particularly school and afterwards, we provide opportunities in relation to health and the issues that are and a better way to get children and young the responsibility of the Public Health Agency, people involved in more physical activity. bearing in mind prevention, promotion and protection, what steps she believes could usefully be taken with that agency to further the aims and objectives of her Department? Regional Development

Ms Ní Chuilín: I have met the Health Minister Housing: Amenities on at least two occasions. We are due to have another meeting. I have met the Agriculture 1. Miss M McIlveen asked the Minister for Minister, and I am meeting the Education Regional Development what steps are being Minister. As regards the Health Minister and taken to ensure that residents purchasing the Public Health Agency, we are looking to use homes with the benefit of surety bonds under sport and physical activity as ways of promoting the Private Streets (NI) Order 1980, the Water better health awareness, including mental and Sewerage Services (NI) Order 2006 and health awareness. We have also met groups preceding legislation have those services that are working on the prevention of suicide adopted within a reasonable time. and groups that are trying to reduce obesity and (AQO 2061/11-15) diabetes. I have to say that the relationship with Mr Kennedy (The Minister for Regional the Health Department and the Health Minister Development): Roads Service and NI Water is very proactive. It is very “can do”. We are have advised that they continue to work closely looking in our own Departments and agencies with developers during the construction of roads for gaps and to make sure that we do everything and sewers in new housing developments. in a joined-up way, which I understand was not Officials inspect the work at key stages and done previously. process requests for bond reductions and preliminary certificates promptly, in order to 3.00 pm facilitate progress towards final adoption of a Mr I McCrea: For most Members, childhoods development. resulted in being outside kicking football or playing whatever type of sport and getting In normal circumstances, the pace of the involved in many different sporting activities process is generally driven by the developer’s at school. Can the Minister outline what progress on site. However, in cases where the discussions she has had with the Education developer does not complete the street works Minister to encourage more people to take part or sewers as agreed or if the works are not in sport, not only while they are at school but proceeding at an appropriate pace, officials will while they are at home? initially seek to negotiate with the developer or other responsible party to get the necessary Ms Ni Chuilín: As I have said, I have had no work completed. If that is not successful, discussions with the Minister of Education enforcement action is initiated, and, if the solely on the Sport Matters strategy, but developer fails to act, Roads Service and NI officials have been meeting and working Water make arrangements to access the bond together. I want to personally meet all the moneys and instruct their own contractors to Ministers, where possible, to look at a joined-up carry out the necessary works. As soon as way on this. the works are complete, the road and sewers

145 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers become adopted and are then maintained as the Minister content that “appropriate pace” part of the public road and sewerage network. can be easily defined?

The Member will also be aware of the inquiry Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member into unadopted roads that is being taken forward for his supplementary question. There is an by the Committee for Regional Development. issue there. We hope and expect that the My Department has provided written and works will be completed within one year of the verbal evidence to the inquiry, awaits receipt houses being occupied. If there is ongoing of the report with interest and will give careful work further along a development or street, it consideration to its recommendations. may be deemed reasonable for a developer to take more than a year to complete the I should say that my Department is broadly final surfacing. As usual, in all these matters, content with the current private streets there is a balance to be found. By working legislation. It provides a good balance, with developers, we seek to complete those reconciling the responsibilities of the developments as quickly as possible, so that Department with those of developers and the householders can enjoy proper access and house buyers, and those arrangements work proper water and sewerage facilities. well in the majority of cases. For example, in the last five years, some 260 miles of road Mr D Bradley: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- have been adopted. However, officials also LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister acknowledge that it would be possible to give increase the number of staff involved in added protection to homebuyers through other enforcement in the southern division in order to measures, albeit that there would be practical ensure that action is speedy and efficient? and financial implications for developers and Mr Kennedy: I thank the Member for his homebuyers that would need to be carefully supplementary question. It is not simply a considered, especially in the current economic matter of employing more people. By working circumstances. more smartly and more closely with developers Miss M McIlveen: I thank the Minister for his and all the agencies involved, significant response. Given that, in some cases, surety progress is possible without adding significantly bonds are outstanding for between 10 and to the expense of the service. It is my belief that 20 years on numerous developments in my improvements can and perhaps will be made to constituency, what guarantees can the Minister the service that we offer. I am hoping for ideas and looking forward to the recommendations give that enforcement action will be prioritised that the Regional Development Committee will in such cases and that the value of the surety bring forward as part of its inquiry. I will listen meets the value of the work that remains closely to those, but I also have ideas of my own. outstanding? We also have to bear it in mind that simply Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for increasing the costs to developers will likely her supplementary question. She has taken lead to the costs being put back onto potential particular interest in the matter. I recall the homebuyers. With the housing market in its Assembly debate that we recently had on current state, I am not sure that that would be it. I am pleased to inform the Member that logical or very sensible. All in all, there are a substantial progress continues to be made, number of factors that need to be given careful particularly in her area, Strangford. There are consideration. recently adopted developments and those which are to be adopted shortly in the near Ms Lo: I have received complaints from future. There are always contentious sites, and constituents in Brooke Hall about problems with my Department and NI Water will continue to sewage and unfinished pavements and roads. work at them. Clearly, those that stretch into a The residents have been there for five years period of years are unacceptable, and we need now. Can the Minister please do something to to see a resolution of those matters as quickly enable the adoption process to go ahead, so as possible. I assure the Member that I am as that the facilities and homes can be enjoyed by keen to see that as any Member of the House. the residents?

Mr Nesbitt: The Minister mentioned “an Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for appropriate pace” of activity by developers. Is her supplementary question. I agree that five

146 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers years is unacceptable. If she furnishes me with are available for the future of NI Water and how the details, I will be happy to investigate to see it is funded and governed. if we can make progress. Mr Spratt: Minister, with regard to governance models, will you ensure that your officials take Northern Ireland Water a serious look at the Scottish model for any 2. Mr Dickson asked the Minister for Regional changes that may happen in the future, when Development to outline his preferred governance possible water charges might come in? model for Northern Ireland Water. Mr Kennedy: I am grateful for the Member’s (AQO 2062/11-15) supplementary question. I welcome him back to the House and to his role as Chairman of the Mr Kennedy: Currently, NI Water has dual Regional Development Committee. governance arrangements. Legally, it is a regulated utility, and, financially, it is treated as Some Members: Hear, hear. part of the public expenditure regime. That has arisen because NI Water did not become self- Mr Kennedy: I have been actively looking funding as anticipated when it was established. and consulting already on models available In the Programme for Government, which was in Scotland, Wales, other parts of the United published on 12 March 2012, the Executive Kingdom and, indeed, the Republic of Ireland. made a continued commitment not to introduce All of that has given me a very useful insight on household charges during this Budget period. a potential way forward for the Northern Ireland Given that commitment, I will bring forward Executive. It is an important matter that the legislation later in the year to extend current Executive should reflect on and, I hope, come to consensus on. That is what I will seek to temporary subsidy arrangements. do, and, obviously, the Regional Development In the longer term, the preferred form of Committee will have a role in that too. governance will depend on how the Executive Mr Dallat: I congratulate the Minister on the decide NI Water should be funded. If the calming effect that he has had on NI Water. Executive continue majority public funding Can we be assured that, in future, whatever the indefinitely, it might be consistent to make governance, there will be less of the turbulence legislative changes to reflect that; if they intend of the past and the tsunamis that robbed that water should become more self-funding, a people of their water supply and caused so model along the regulated utility lines would be much grief to people who either worked for the logical. It is my intention to put a paper to the company or were part of it? Executive in the near future on the implications of the Programme for Government commitment. Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his carefully phrased supplementary question; I will Mr Dickson: Minister, there was a large degree attempt to equally carefully phrase my answer. of consensus at the recent Institute of Water Stability is in everybody’s interest, and there conference that some form of mutualised model has been a high degree of stability with NI Water was the way forward. Do you agree with that, or over recent months. The current chief executive, do you have some other model in mind? Trevor Haslett, has, in no small measure, contributed to that. I am very much looking to Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his the future to see how we can put NI Water on a supplementary question. All of us are aware of proper footing as it faces the challenges of the the Alliance Party’s position on these matters — future. We enjoy record levels of quality drinking the introduction of water charges and, indeed, water and sewerage, and those are positives. advocating the mutualisation of NI Water. That However, there are issues of governance and is plainly on the record. What is equally plainly funding that need to be addressed, and, with on the record is that the current Programme for good will on all sides, we can attempt to do that. Government, agreed not only by the Executive but by the Assembly, made it clear that there will Mr Lynch: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- be no additional charges in this mandate. The LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister spoke purpose of my paper to Executive colleagues will about bringing forward a model of governance be to explore — helpfully, I hope — how we can for NIW. How does he see that model being begin a mature debate on the best options that accountable to the Assembly?

147 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers

Mr Kennedy: I thank the Member for his Mrs D Kelly: I thank the Minister for a supplementary question. Amongst the comprehensive answer. I hope that we can issues that the Executive need to decide have a commitment from him to push ahead on is how NI Water will operate. Will it be a with a submission to the EU for funding on an privatised company? Will it be part-privatised all-island basis in order to improve rail services and mutualised in some way? Could it be on the Belfast to Dublin line and, indeed, the brought back into public ownership through Belfast to Derry line. I think that, on his recent nationalisation, which is, I think, more complex visit to Brussels, the Minister was somewhat and more difficult? Those are the issues. encouraged by the fact that there might be However, ultimately, there has to be a degree opportunities to follow up on that. Can he of political accountability. I am conscious of confirm that there will be improvements in the those issues, and, with Executive colleagues town of Lurgan in particular? and members of the Regional Development Mr Principal Deputy Speaker: Question. Committee, including Mr Lynch, I will seek to explore avenues for how best to achieve that. Mrs D Kelly: I am asking whether the Minister will look at the needs of Lurgan in respect of the 3.15 pm Belfast to Dublin line.

Railways: All-island Network Mr Kennedy: I am very grateful for the Member’s supplementary question. We seemed to travel 3. Mrs D Kelly asked the Minister for Regional from Brussels to Lurgan very quickly. For factual Development what discussions have been held accuracy, I was not in Brussels but Strasbourg. with the Dublin Government about sourcing EU Nonetheless, there was useful engagement in funding for an all-island rail network. Strasbourg with, amongst others, Commissioner (AQO 2063/11-15) Kallas and members of the European subcommittee on TEN-T issues. I understand Mr Kennedy: I have not yet had any formal the Member’s point. I am very keen to see discussions with the Irish Government about improvements generally to the rail network. a joint bid for EU funding to improve cross- One of the difficulties we face in Europe is that border rail services. I did discuss potential it has a sense that freight in Northern Ireland service improvements to the Belfast to Dublin and, indeed, in the Republic of Ireland is moved Enterprise service with the Irish Transport by rail, which is not the case. Unfortunately, it Minister in the margins of the European does not appear to be immediately economically transport council meeting in Brussels in viable either. However, we are making close December. I am keen to see what can be done representations to Europe on all these issues. on the line north of Dublin to ensure that the Enterprise can arrive in Dublin before 9.00 am On the issue of Lurgan, the Member will be on weekdays. aware that Translink has identified a signalling upgrade that will, when implemented, reduce At the North/South Ministerial Council meeting crossing closure times for southbound trains in transport sectoral format on 20 April 2012, stopping at Lurgan railway station. The upgrade Minister Varadkar and I noted that the reliability will be installed and commissioned in this and punctuality of the Enterprise service financial year. However, it will work only for trains had improved significantly in recent months. stopping at the station before passing over I welcome the new station that has been the level crossing. I explained that in detail at constructed at Newry and the work that has Craigavon council at the end of March. Translink started on the redevelopment of Portadown has invested around £827,000 in the upkeep station. I look forward to measures that will and refurbishment of facilities at Lurgan rail be completed this year to improve locomotive station. However, there are no plans or available reliability on the Enterprise service and to funding at this time for any major works to equip the trains with Wi-Fi. As regards longer- Lurgan railway station. The need for investment term improvements, Minister Varadkar and I in the station will be reviewed by Translink as agreed that investment possibilities to upgrade it updates and prioritises its plans for capital the Belfast to Dublin railway line could be expenditure. considered within the context of forthcoming EU decisions on the next TEN-T programme. We Mr Campbell: I do not know whether the await the outcome of those decisions. Minister has had any assessment done of

148 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers international rail travel between Northern Ireland grant assistance from Europe in terms of the and the Republic and whatever hundreds of TEN-T regulations, and that is what I am working millions it would cost to develop that, but would to achieve. he set that beside the need to develop internal rail links within Northern Ireland — we have Mr Agnew: I thank the Minister for his answers seen the need for that — equating those two so far, and, indeed, the work that is being done to ensure that we get the productivity there to improve our existing rail services. He has internally, before we talk about internationally? pointed out the increased take-up of rail, which is, no doubt, a consequence of the rising cost Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member. I of petrol. What is being done to introduce new think he was being slightly mischievous, but I services in the short or medium term? accept the point that he makes. I think that I have shown strong commitment to improving Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his the rail infrastructure in Northern Ireland with supplementary question. What I have attempted the upgrade of the Coleraine to Londonderry to do by, for instance, the upgrade of the line. I know that the Member and, indeed, all Coleraine to Londonderry line, which we spoke Members of the House will support that. Where about earlier, is not simply to maintain services it is possible and subject to the necessary but to enhance them. These things cost money, funding being available, yes, of course, I see and I am mindful of the overall financial position rail infrastructure as an important tool. There is that Translink finds itself in. The intention is good evidence of that, with the new trains that that we do not simply stand still with our rail are continuing to be brought online and the 20 services but continue to improve the services to new trains purchased recently. That is improving the general public. the service and the experience of travelling by rail, and that is reflected in the record number of A26 Dual Carriageway: Farms people who use trains to travel either for leisure 4. Mr Storey asked the Minister for Regional or for work. Development how he intends to minimise the Mr Ó hOisín: Go raibh maith agat, a Príomh- disturbance to farm businesses as a result of Leas Cheann Comhairle. I wonder whether the the proposed dualling of the A26 road. Minister agrees with Mr Campbell’s colleague (AQO 2064/11-15) junior Minister Bell, who earlier expressed Mr Kennedy: Roads Service has advised that, the importance of the TEN-T funding for rail during construction of the A26 dualling between development on this island. I wonder, in Glarryford and the A44 Drones Road junction, particular, what thoughts he would have on the the contractor will be required to ensure that, development, somewhere down the line, of a where possible, access is maintained to all land potential western corridor for rail on the island adjacent to the works. Roads Service officials of Ireland. further advise that the scheme will provide an Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his all-purpose dual carriageway, with landowners supplementary question. As I have outlined, we and farmers accessing it either from left in/left had very constructive meetings in Strasbourg out junctions or from one of the adjacent full- last week on the TEN-T regulations. That will be movement, side road junctions. My officials and ongoing work. The Member will know that I am contracted staff will engage fully with affected due to come before the Regional Development landowners and their agents in relation to the Committee on Wednesday to update it with a provision of appropriate accommodation works, report from my recent visit. These are issues including fencing, hedging, gates and laneways. that we will want to carry forward constructively Where land is required for the scheme, together. landowners will be compensated in accordance with the Land Compensation (Northern Ireland) The potential cost of what would be, in Order 1982. Compensation matters are dealt European terms, a high-speed rail network, with directly by the Department of Finance and either North/South or, indeed, extending to Personnel’s Land and Property Services on other parts of the neighbouring jurisdiction, is behalf of my Department. likely to be prohibitive. Some £1 billion is talked about. We want to ensure that Northern Ireland Mr Storey: I thank the Minister for his reply. can avail itself of any possible opportunity for However, we continue to be disappointed that,

149 Monday 28 May 2012 Oral Answers while statutory works have been carried out year; we estimate that it will be November or to continue progress on the project, there still December. remains an issue that his Department has not been able to resolve to the satisfaction of The Member will know that, as part of the one local farmer, if not two local farmers: the overall Budget that his party and others have issue of an underpass. When the climbing lane supported, we have invested heavily in schemes was introduced at Dunloy some years ago, an such as the A5, A8 and A2. underpass was supplied to a particular farmer It remains to be seen whether the investment on that particular section of the A26. Can the strategy, which has yet to be published, Minister tell the House why an underpass is confirmed and adopted by the Executive and not being made available to the farms that are the Assembly, will yield the opportunity to carry particularly affected in this case? Northern forward a scheme such as the A26, which is Ireland has seen one of those farms on a recent competing with other schemes for bypasses or UTV programme displaying, week by week, the through-passes all over Northern Ireland. I, as best of our farming in Northern Ireland. roads Minister, simply say that I am up for doing Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his all those roads, including upgrading the A26. supplementary. These are issues that the Member 3.30 pm continues to raise on behalf of his constituents, along with other representatives of the area. The Mr Allister: Will the Minister explain to my scheme has been assessed by Roads Service farming constituents how the Department can officials, and, at this point, it is not deemed to find hundreds of millions to pour into vanity be cost-effective to create the underpasses at projects like the A5 and tens of millions to pay the locations he has indicated. One of the next consultants, but when it comes to farmers and stages of the statutory process will be to move facilitating their business on routes like the A26, to a public inquiry. Those arguments, strong as it penny-pinches and refuses to recognise the they will be, will be made at that stage, and the absolute functioning necessity of an underpass? inspector will, I am sure, give full account to Is it not time that the Department got the those views. At present, however, the view of balance right and provided for those whom it is Roads Service is that it would not be a cost- affecting the most? effective use of public money or serve the roads Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his network to provide those underpasses. If supplementary question, and I accept the force evidence can be produced to the contrary and a and passion that he put it with. The difficulty compelling argument can be made, we will listen is that Roads Service and its consultants have very closely. to assess from an engineering point of view Mr McKay: Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh- whether the underpasses represent value for LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister agree money and a wise choice of carrying forward that the upgrading of the A26 is needed not a road scheme. I indicated that individual only for road safety but because it would benefit landowners and public representatives will the local economy and tourism and decrease have the opportunity at some stage — probably travel times for people from Ballymoney and at the late end of this year — to make Ballycastle? When, in the outworking of the representations at a public inquiry, and based scheme, does he foresee that this will be done, on the strength of those, to carry those forward. and where does it lie with regard to his funding If compelling and accepted arguments are priorities? made, I, as Minister, or whoever is Minister, will bring those forward. I appreciate the strength Mr Kennedy: I am grateful to the Member for his and conviction with which the Member spoke. supplementary. I am a very clear supporter and Ultimately, however, he will know that the wise advocate of the improvement and upgrade to use of public money has to be a key factor in all the A26, not least because my party colleague these things, and so it is with underpasses and Robin Swann raises it with me every time he accommodation works that are associated with sees me. I need no convincing of its merits any scheme, not least the A26. and the economic benefit that it would have for that region. As I indicated, the next stage of the statutory process is likely to be the referral to public inquiry sometime towards the end of this

150 Monday 28 May 2012

Executive Committee a problem for a time. That was launched in the Budget in March and responded to with the Business autumn statement in November. In the interim, the Government were reluctant to adapt the duty Finance Bill: Legislative Consent in any way. Motion (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair) Mr Wilson (The Minister of Finance and Personnel): I beg to move The First Minister and the deputy First Minister, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment That this Assembly agrees that the provisions in and I pressed them hard, with the support of clause 189 of and schedule 23 to the Finance Bill, Northern Ireland Office Ministers, and I am as introduced in the House of Commons on 10 pleased to say that the Prime Minister and May 2012, dealing with the devolution of Northern Her Majesty’s Treasury Ministers, particularly Ireland long-haul rates of air passenger duty should the Chancellor — without whose help, it would be considered by the UK Parliament. not have happened — responded positively. Before turning to the detail of the legislative Our request was that the Government take consent motion, I want to touch on a number whatever action necessary to avoid the loss of issues; namely, the scope of the powers of that important air link. Our first preference granted to us and the cost of expanding them. was to find a way to do that within the national Let me be clear from the outset: I have serious air passenger duty framework. Our request concerns about the impact of air passenger duty indicated that if the Government could not do (APD) for Northern Ireland as one of the more that, we wanted the powers devolved so that remote regions of the UK. I consider that, as a we could take the necessary action ourselves. tax, it no longer meets the basic requirements We wanted a similar exemption to that which of being fair to everyone, having a simple applies for Scotland’s islands, which is on structure and not unduly impeding consumers the basis of a very low population density. We and business. More generally, unlike the rest cannot begin to match that but we hoped that of the United Kingdom, our access to other an exemption would be made available on some regions is not as easy; it is heavily reliant on other basis. If that could have been achieved, air transport. We have no rail or car options for we would not have needed to devolve the wider travel within the UK. powers and would not have needed the block grant reduction that comes with that. We made our position on the duty clear in our response last June to the Government’s The Government explored that fully with the consultation. The Government said that they will European Commission, but no such solution return to the rebalancing issue, which is a wider could be found within the state aid rules. The issue that has implications not only for Northern most legally sound long-term solution was to Ireland but, potentially, for Wales and Scotland. devolve the powers in line with the EU Azores We will continue to make our views on APD criteria. It was, I believe, the Chancellor who known. What we are dealing with today is more took the decision to reduce the air passenger limited and relates only to the devolution of rate- duty rate for direct long-haul flights from setting powers for direct long-haul flights. Northern Ireland to the same as that for short- haul flights with effect from last November and At the end of 2010 and the beginning of 2011, to begin the process of devolving the necessary we were faced with significant concerns about powers to us. I thank him and the Secretary of the viability of our direct link between Belfast State for that. International Airport and New York. That was a direct result of the difference in the rate of APD The legislative consent motion before us today here and in the Republic. It was very clear that is intended to give effect to the first stage of without urgent action, that route would have the process prior to an Assembly Bill being been lost to Northern Ireland. It was an urgent brought forward. Before turning to the detail of matter, because airline schedules were being the legislative consent motion, let me be quite reviewed in a ruthless way following the takeover clear: what was under consideration by the of Continental Airlines by United, and timing was Government and on which our consent is being crucial. The fact that the Government launched sought is provision to devolve air passenger a wider consultation of APD as a whole became duty rate-setting for direct long-haul flights only.

151 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion

Many have argued that that provision should with the devolution of air passenger duty rate- be made to extend devolved powers to band setting for direct long-haul flights from Northern A short-haul flights. Indeed, that issue was Ireland. There is a need for restraint and careful raised by the Finance and Personnel Committee, consideration for calls for the devolution of and the Chairman will probably say something wider powers where these have considerable about that later. However, put simply, the policy financial consequences for Northern Ireland. framework to provide for that is simply not in That is not to say that the wider concerns have place. The Executive have not agreed such been rejected by the Government or that this is an approach, and at no time have the powers an issue that should not be further considered. been requested from the Government by the Rather, it needs to be considered in the wider Executive. Indeed, even if we did ask for greater context of other regions in the UK and the powers, it is not clear that they would have been Government’s response to this more generally. agreed to. Given the timetable for the Finance I will now turn briefly to the detail of the Bill 2012, it would be near impossible to do that legislation that is going through Parliament and in that Bill. It is likely that Royal Assent will be which would give effect to the devolution of air granted before Parliament’s summer recess. passenger duty rate-setting for direct long-haul Although agreeing the policy on short-haul APD flights from Northern Ireland. Members will wish rates may be relatively straightforward, gaining to note that the Assembly has no powers in consent to the financial implications would not relation to APD, as this is an excepted matter. be. Although it could be argued that the powers An Assembly Bill cannot be used to implement could be granted to use and exercise at a the proposal to give the Assembly powers to set later date, that would be a somewhat unusual the APD rate for direct long-haul flights starting approach from a legislative perspective. The in Northern Ireland. Once the relevant powers devolution of short-haul rates of APD would are devolved to the Assembly, an Assembly Bill be an expensive measure. For direct long-haul will be required to set the direct long-haul air flights, devolution will cost in the region of £5 passenger duty rate for Northern Ireland. million a year with a zero rate. The provisions of the Westminster Finance Bill A similar approach for short-haul flights would that deal with Northern Ireland and air passenger be considerably higher, costing in the region of duty contain retrospective, current and future £60 million per annum at present and, perhaps, aspects. Part 1 of schedule 23 to the Bill gives rising to £90 million per annum. That is not effect to the cut in air passenger duty for direct an inconsiderable sum by any stretch of the long-haul flights departing from Northern Ireland imagination. Also, as we contemplate other with effect from 1 November 2011. The block adjustments, it is a significant sum that provision gives legal effect to the rate of duty for would have to be dealt with. direct long-haul flights from Northern Ireland being reduced to £12 for standard class and Although phasing may help in the early years, £24 for any other class for the period from 1 it would not detract from the long-term annual November 2011 to 31 March 2012. This means cost. Even halving the rate of duty on short-haul that the short-haul rate of duty is applied where flights would initially cost around £30 million a direct long-haul flight is undertaken from a year. That would have considerable recurring Northern Ireland or, if there is more than one annual consequences for the resources at flight involved, the first connection is made in a the Executive’s disposal at a time of already long-haul destination. Part 2 of the schedule considerable budgetary constraint. Furthermore, provides for an increase in the rate of APD from to devolve greater powers than are contained 1 April 2012, with the short-haul rate for band A in the current Finance Bill may also require increased from £13 to £26. Provision is also an amendment to the Northern Ireland Act made for those new rates to apply to all direct 1998, as opposed to being able to deliver long-haul flights from Northern Ireland. The the reductions solely through the Finance Bill Assembly does not have to give consent to amendment. The time needed for this would be these two Parts of the schedule, as no powers simply too long for the action that we want to are devolved in relation to this. take on direct long-haul flights. Part 3 of the schedule devolves the rate-setting For these reasons, the legislation before for direct long-haul flights to Northern Ireland. Parliament at this time, rightly I believe, deals This change will apply to flights that take off

152 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion from Northern Ireland on or before an appointed It is anticipated that the Finance Bill will secure day. The date is likely to be in late 2012 or 1 Royal Assent in mid-July. Following that, I will April 2013. The date will be appointed following bring a Bill to the Assembly for approval, which the Finance Bill receiving Royal Assent and the will give effect to the second stage of the necessary primary legislation being passed in devolution process: the setting of the direct the Assembly. The Programme for Government long-haul rates at zero. I hope that that Bill will indicates that the Executive wish to set the rate be passed before the end of the year, subject to zero for direct long-haul flights. to the Assembly’s agreement to the use of accelerated passage. Part 3 of the schedule also makes administrative provision in relation to the setting-up and Before we move into the debate, I want to take maintenance of a register of aircraft operators the opportunity to thank the Committee for its with routes from Northern Ireland. consideration of the APD rates and the publication of its report on the matter. As always, I welcome In addition, it provides for Her Majesty’s the views of the Committee and look forward to Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to disclose its continued assistance as the necessary Bill is information to the Secretary of State, the brought forward to this place. Treasury and the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) for the purpose of setting the In conclusion, having got the support of the new rates of duty, along with the restrictions on Executive Committee, I would welcome the the further disclosure of that information and support of Members on this motion. associated penalties. The legislative consent of Mr Murphy (The Chairperson of the Committee the Assembly is required for Part 3 as it gives for Finance and Personnel): Go raibh maith autonomy over the rates to be set for direct agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. On 5 March long-haul flights from Northern Ireland. 2012, the Minister of Finance and Personnel wrote to seek the views of the Finance and 3.45 pm Personnel Committee on the provisions of the Part 4 of the schedule provides for the proposed UK Finance Bill that would devolve extension of APD to passengers in smaller direct long-haul rates of air passenger duty aircraft and reduces the de minimis weight limit to the Assembly. Given that that involves the from 10 tons to 5·7 tons. It also extends the devolution of tax-setting powers, the Assembly’s exceptions to APD for aircraft used for certain consent is required in the form of the legislative purposes and provides for new rates for certain consent motion that is before us today. aircraft. A new rate will apply to those aircraft The Committee was briefed by departmental that have a take-off weight of more than 20 officials on the implications of the proposed tons and that seat fewer than 19 passengers. provisions in the Finance Bill on 14 March. Essentially, the provisions extend APD to private The Committee noted that, in addition to DFP, jets and set a new rate for luxury private jets. the provisions could be of interest to the Part 4 also includes changes to reflect the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment devolution of APD rates for direct long-haul (DETI). Therefore, a response was sought flights from Northern Ireland. For luxury from the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, which confirmed that it supported private jets, the legislation provides that the the proposed legislative consent motion. APD rate would be twice that which otherwise applies, and once powers are devolved, it will To inform its work, the Committee received be twice the standard prevailing rate set by evidence from a range of stakeholders. On the Assembly. Members will wish to note that 18 April and 25 April, oral evidence was although the default rate for luxury private taken from panels of witnesses that included aircraft will be twice the standard prevailing rate, representatives from Belfast International my Department has asked HMRC to provide so Airport, George Best Belfast City Airport, ABTA: that the Assembly could determine different The Travel Association, the Hotels Federation, rates for that category of aircraft. If agreed by the Belfast Visitor and Convention Bureau, the the Government, an amendment will be tabled Consumer Council, the Chamber of Commerce at Report Stage, which is scheduled for early and the Federation of Small Businesses. Written July. More generally, the changes in Part 4 will submissions were also received from Ballymena take effect from 1 April 2013. Borough Council, Aer Lingus, Flybe and York

153 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion

Aviation. On 2 May, Members received a briefing the responsive action that has been taken to from the Assembly’s Research and Information safeguard the vital Belfast-New York connection. Service together with a final oral submission The Committee has recommended that the from DFP officials. Minister of Finance and Personnel, together with the other applicable Ministers, should Air passenger duty has been criticised as a now develop a co-ordinated action plan in form of unfair and economically damaging conjunction with all the key stakeholders to taxation, and Britain is often cited as having maximise the economic opportunities arising the highest APD in the world. The Committee from the devolution of direct long-haul rates of noted that a number of Governments in other APD. This should include the aim of establishing European countries either have not implemented new direct long-haul flight connections to key aviation duties or have reduced or withdrawn business and tourism hubs. them because of the potential damage to the air transport industry. Members also noted The Finance Bill also includes provisions that evidence that supports the argument that the extend APD to small business jets, which are British Government should reconsider their currently exempt due to restrictions on weight policy position and abolish APD, given that it is and size. This will result in most business jet also damaging to the economy in Britain. passengers being subject to the same rate of duty as commercial aircraft passengers. Furthermore, Many of the stakeholders who provided evidence luxury private airlines will pay double the higher to the Committee emphasised the importance rate of APD. The Committee research pointed of air travel to business and tourism here. out to DFP that if the Assembly were to set the Various statistics were cited, including that the direct long-haul standard rate of APD to zero, it air transport sector contributed a gross value would create an anomaly where luxury private added of around £127million to the regional aircraft flying from the North would be liable for a economy in 2009 and directly supported zero rate of APD. The Department subsequently 704 jobs and an additional 914 jobs in the informed the Committee and the Minister production line. confirmed in his remarks that discussions are The Committee was informed that the ongoing with Revenue and Customs to anticipated cost of devolving APD on direct long- determine whether the Assembly could be given haul flights, an estimated £5 million per annum, the power to set the private luxury aircraft APD is lower than the direct and indirect revenue that rate at something other than twice the standard is generated here by the North American route prevailing rate, should the Assembly wish to do on which the Executive originally campaigned for so at a future date. This would give the a reduction in APD and which has been worth in Assembly the power to set a different rate excess of £100 million over seven years. should it so wish. According to the Department, it is hoped that an amendment will be approved The Committee recognises that APD is a at Report Stage of the Westminster Bill on 2 regressive tax that is particularly disadvantageous July 2012 to give effect to this. The Committee to businesses, consumers and the wider would welcome this amendment to the Finance economy in the North. This is due to the Bill. Indeed, as I said, the Finance Minister peripheral location of the region, which results confirmed that that is his expectation also. in greater dependence on air travel, and to the proximity to airports in the South, particularly Although the Committee invited evidence Dublin Airport, which hold a competitive specifically on the detail of the relevant advantage, given that a nominal €3 rate of APD provisions in the Finance Bill, it also received applies. The negative consequences for the a substantial body of evidence on wider policy North will be exacerbated by the further issues in respect of APD, including its impact increases in APD rates levied by the British on the regional economy and on provisions that Government from 1 April 2012. Members, are absent from the Finance Bill but which might therefore, welcome the proposed devolution of have been included. In evidence collected by APD rates on direct long-haul flights as an the Committee, there was general support for important step towards redressing the the proposal to devolve direct long-haul rates of disproportionate burden of APD locally. duty, including optimism that this will open up long-haul route development opportunities for The Committee agrees that the Executive the North. However, many stakeholders argued and the Treasury are to be commended for in favour of fuller devolution of powers than

154 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion that contained in schedule 23 to the Finance Executive take an evidence-based approach to Bill, in particular to cover domestic and short- reducing rates for particular bands, with the haul rates, which comprise the vast majority of decisions taken on the basis of forecast return flights from the region. This was reflected in the on investment. comments of the chief executive of Belfast City Airport: The Committee has called on the Minister to propose that the Executive commission “The moves that have been made to date on air independent expert research into the business passenger duty have left 98% of that problem case for reducing or abolishing APD on band A untouched.” flights departing from the North, which would inform the Executive’s consideration of whether Although this issue is wider than the terms or how wider devolved powers over APD should of the legislative consent motion before us, be exercised. That research should include it is relevant to the debate in that it concerns an assessment of the opportunity costs of provisions that are absent from the Finance Bill non action, rigorous economic modelling and but which might have been included. forecasting of options and lessons from other The Committee concluded that it had been EU states that have reduced or abolished presented with a strong case for reducing or APD, including examples where Governments abolishing APD rates on the 98·5% of flights have attached conditions to APD reductions to from the North that fall into the domestic and ensure resultant benefits for consumers and short-haul band A as a measure to improve the wider economy. As part of that initiative, the region’s connectivity with Britain and other the Committee recommends that the Executive European states, with a view to boosting proceed with making a strategic decision on business and tourism and helping to rebalance whether to press the British Government for the regional economy. While recognising that the devolution of the wider APD powers at the this will require rigorous cost-benefit analysis, earliest opportunity. the Committee also concluded that, given Given the time constraints that now arise, the Treasury’s insistence on the devolution the Committee acknowledges that seeking to of, rather than exemption from, APD and the include the devolution of band A rates of APD determination of the British Government to in the provisions of the Finance Bill could risk retain APD as a revenue-raising measure, any losing the immediate opportunity for devolving future reduction in APD on band A flights from direct long-haul rates of duty. Therefore, the the North is likely to be achieved only through Committee agreed to support the Minister in the further devolution of powers to also cover seeking the Assembly’s agreement that the band A rates. The Department has advised provisions in clause 189 of and schedule 23 the Committee that devolving APD rates for to the Finance Bill, as introduced in the House all flights from the North and setting a zero of Commons on 10 May 2012, dealing with the rate across all bands could cost the Executive devolution of long-haul rates of air passenger around £60 million per annum. This is a figure duty, should be considered by the Westminster that the Treasury has provided as an estimate of Parliament. the duty that would be applicable from 2010-11. The Minister, however, has quoted a figure of up I commend the motion to the House. to £90 million, although DFP officials clarified, as did the Minister today, that that is based on Mr Girvan: I stand to speak in favour of the estimated projections up to 2016-17. motion. This motion came about on the back of a crisis situation that occurred due to the I emphasise the Committee’s recommendation potential loss of the Continental flight, which that a cost-benefit decision on the devolution of is our only north American route. Therefore, powers over band A rates should take account it was important that we moved quickly to get of the fact that the Executive will only incur that forward. To get thus far, a lot of lobbying a substantive cost if and when the devolved went on. I praise the Minister of Finance and powers are used to reduce the band A rates. Personnel, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade The estimated £60 million total cost would and Investment and the First Minister and the only apply if the Executive opted to set a zero deputy First Minister for the efforts that they put rate across all the APD bands. Importantly, the in to ensuring that we could get the opportunity Committee has also recommended that the to devolve APD on our long-haul flights.

155 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion

The case for how much it would cost the 4.00 pm Northern Ireland economy has been well made. Mr Cree: I am grateful for the opportunity to Let us be honest: if we were willing to take the speak in support of the legislative consent hit and accept the major cost to the Northern motion on air passenger duty. The Chairman Ireland block grant — the £60 million, £90 referred to the amount of work undertaken by million or whatever figure it might be — the the Committee and evidence taken from a wide Exchequer would not have an issue with saying, range of sources. I thank the Committee staff “Go ahead. We’ll take that money off you.” We for their hard work. have to be sensible and make a judgement on The decision to protect our sole long-haul flight the benefits. to the US was the right one, and it is right The north American route is beneficial to the to complete this exercise by approving the Northern Ireland economy. A lot of the other motion. During the Committee’s work, however, routes are, necessarily, outgoing and more much was learned that necessitates further discussion and action. Air passenger duty is, geared towards people who are leaving Northern as several Members said, a regressive tax, Ireland to go elsewhere as tourists and are, which started out as an environmental tax but therefore, making their spend outside Northern is now clearly a finance-raising choice for the Ireland, whereas the north American route Government in Westminster. The tax is harmful has major business benefits to us, and it is to business, consumers and the wider economy important that we protect that. in Northern Ireland. Its application actually hinders the development of the economy, which In line with going through the process of is the Executive’s first priority. The EU emissions debating the issue, the Committee has heard trading system, which was introduced in the extensive evidence from those who are involved UK last January, is a further environmental tax in the industry and those who feel that they can on airlines and is, arguably, a more practical benefit from a reduction in APD on our long- method to tax aviation pollution costs. We do haul routes. We can and we will achieve a great not need both. benefit by making a decision on that matter with minimal cost. The figure of £5 million has The fact that the UK imposes higher duty than other parts of Europe is another major concern. been alluded to in relation to this matter. We Indeed, many countries have abolished APD- can far outweigh that with the benefits that can type duty. The rate of duty in the Irish Republic be levered in from the businesses attracted by is €3 and may be abolished. Because we have that route. However, we can use this as another a shared boundary with the Republic and it is a opportunity to attract additional routes into relatively short distance to Dublin Airport, that Northern Ireland and use it as a launch pad is sure to have a significant economic impact to the rest of GB. We should be attempting to on air services in Northern Ireland. We need to attract other long-haul routes on that basis. address that important issue.

We are unique on the basis that other parts of The Scottish Highlands and Islands are exempt the United Kingdom do not have to compete from air passenger duty on flights departing with an airport 100 miles down the road that from their airports. We are told that that was is offering a reduced APD. On the basis of that, based on their low population density. We we have to ensure that our long-haul flights are have the same peripherality problem, which is competitive. exacerbated by our greater density and the need for access to mainland Britain. Civil Aviation I congratulate the Minister on bringing this to Authority statistics show that, on average, 17% the House. It is one of the good news stories. of UK-departing flights are domestic services It is the Assembly reacting to what was a crisis within the UK. In comparison, 75% of Northern situation, where we could have lost one of our Ireland passenger movements are on UK major links and, therefore, put a nail into the domestic services, demonstrating a much higher dependence on air travel. coffin of our connection with North America. We now have the opportunity to attract additional The Consumer Council pointed out that England routes for Northern Ireland to benefit from, so I is to benefit from a £32·2 billion investment in support the motion. a high-speed rail network that will further reduce

156 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion dependence on domestic air transport. It will inevitably brings with it a cost to the block grant also have wider economic benefits for those that must be borne by the Executive. In this regions, but Northern Ireland will not share in case, it is estimated that the cost is around those benefits. Indeed, it will be at a greater £5 million, but we must set that against an disadvantage because of its dependence on estimated benefit in the region of £100 million the air routes. That situation presents a strong from the United Continental service over seven case for exempting Northern Ireland from all air years. Witnesses told the Committee that three passenger duty on flights to and from Northern new carriers with similar levels of passenger Ireland. carriage would create £300 million to £400 million in extra revenue and generate thousands Tourism is an important part of our economy. of jobs. So the measure creates potential that The Federation of Small Businesses provided is well worth exploiting. evidence that the current structures of APD are damaging to the UK’s tourism industry. That was Unfortunately, we have missed the boat or, supported by several other groups. The Belfast should I say, the plane in relation to the Visitor and Convention Bureau pointed out that Emirates airline, which was looking at a flight Germany is the biggest source market in Europe from Belfast to Dubai but chose Dublin instead. for city breaks, yet we have no direct access No doubt, APD was a major consideration in that to it. Canada is our largest VFR — I think that decision. Hopefully, it is not too late. There is a stands for “visiting friends and relations” — market out there, and this measure will help us market after America, and, again, we have no to exploit that market to our fullest advantage. direct access there. As the Member who has The further someone is from this island, the just spoken said, there is scope for cuts to air more irrelevant the point of entry becomes. If passenger duty on condition that airlines open we can encourage people to fly to Belfast, the up new routes. likelihood is greater that they will stay in this region and we will get the economic benefit The Committee has provided several from their stay in many ways. We need to get conclusions and recommendations with the out there and begin the work of attracting more report. I am sure that the Minister will have read long-haul flights from more countries. We can those. I recognise that our first objective is the look at the experiences of continental countries devolution to Northern Ireland of air passenger such as the Netherlands, Denmark and Belgium. duty on long-haul flights. I am pleased to They introduced APD schemes similar to what support the Minister, and I ask the House to we have here, only to abandon them or to agree the motion. drastically reduce them, due to the impact that they had on inbound visitor numbers. So the Mr D Bradley: Go raibh maith agat, a lesson is clear. LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the legislative consent motion on the devolution of air The debate on the motion leads us to an passenger duty that is before the House. examination of APD on shorter flights — the The specific measure, which is part of the band A flights — which make up 98·5% of flights Finance Bill, will devolve to the Northern Ireland from Northern Ireland, compared with 17% in Assembly the power to set the rate of APD to the UK. As other Members have mentioned, be applied to direct long-haul flights that take that clearly demonstrates our dependence on off from Northern Ireland. I believe that those air travel. It was said earlier that the Highlands flights are designated as bands B, C and D. and Islands in Scotland have gained exemption This was spurred by the need to ensure that the from APD on the grounds of being a peripheral transatlantic flight from Belfast International location with low population density. We do not Airport to Newark continued. That route was qualify under the revised European rules in that thought vital in maintaining the links between respect, although Mr Cree has mentioned the Northern Ireland and North America, especially fact that we still have a strong argument. in relation to the continued development of business and tourism. We are, of course, in direct competition with Dublin, and that has been mentioned on several As we have heard, powers over other aspects occasions today. Dublin Airport is only an hour of APD will be retained by the Treasury. Under and a half down the road from both airports. the Azores judgement, the devolution of The domestic APD rate here is around £13, any revenue-raising powers to the Assembly compared with €3 in Dublin. Witnesses from the

157 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion two airports told us that a family of four from Mrs Cochrane: I, too, welcome the opportunity Newry, for instance, would pay £100 in taxes to speak to this legislative consent motion to fly from Belfast, compared with €12 to fly regarding provisions in the Finance Bill for the from Dublin, so it is clear where the advantage devolution of air passenger duty rates. I do not lies. If you add to that the prediction that rates wish to simply restate what has already been will eventually double, it is clear that we may said by the Members who spoke before me, so be at even greater disadvantage in the future. I will focus on a few key issues that have arisen Although the rate at the moment may not be during our Committee work. such as to encourage someone to drive to Among the stakeholders with whom we engaged Dublin to fly to Birmingham, for example, that and met, there was palpable support for may not be the case in the future if increases proposals to devolve direct long-haul rates of happen at the proposed rate. Our main market flight duty to Northern Ireland. There was a for connections, by a huge margin, is the UK sustained sense of optimism that that could and Europe. We must remember that our main open up future long-haul route development tourism and business markets are there. opportunities in Northern Ireland. As was said earlier, the cost to the block grant Another issue that was raised was the fact that, of removing APD on the shorter flights — due to our unique geographical position, we face the band A flights — would be much higher: stiff competition in aviation provision from our around £60 million. Nonetheless, we believe neighbours in the Republic of Ireland. Northern that a proper cost-benefit analysis should be Ireland sits on a platform that is different from carried out to inform a business case on the that of any other country of the United Kingdom transfer of the powers. Surely we should try to due to its physical separation by sea from the establish the financial facts rather than simply rest of GB and its sharing a land border with dismiss the idea out of hand. If we are to be another EU member state. With the rate of APD as competitive as we can be, we need to have in the South already substantially lower than every implement in the economic tool chest at ours and further proposals to abolish it entirely, our disposal. It should be remembered that the there is a very strong case for some form of transfer of powers gives us the opportunity to mitigation of APD for Northern Ireland. That vary APD and that the £60 million per annum view is shared by the Northern Ireland Affairs total cost would only apply if the Executive set Committee in Westminster. the rate at zero across all bands. Many representatives were keen to stress There seems to be no definitive position on the significance of air travel to business and whether the transfer of the powers would tourism in Northern Ireland. We have already need to be done through a change to the seen an increase in tourism here this year as Northern Ireland Act or through a Finance Bill part of our landmark ni2012 celebrations. More amendment, and we need clarity on that issue than £300 million was invested in our tourism too. However, I believe that there is a legislative sector in anticipation of this year. If we wish window towards the end of 2013 when, we to be serious about developing our long-term hope, corporation tax powers will be transferred. prospects and building on our successes, we must be proactive in adapting our air travel My party welcomes the measures contained infrastructure to accommodate our goals. Our in the legislative consent motion in relation to air travel sector has a proven track record of long-haul flights. We support the motion. We making sizeable contributions to our economy also believe that we should use this change and employment market. The feeling on the to our fullest possible economic advantage, ground is very much that a devolved decision to as outlined at page 21, paragraph 3 of the lower APD rates would undoubtedly attract new Committee’s report. We fully support the other business and have an even greater impact on key conclusions and recommendations in the our economy. Committee’s report. I join other Committee members and the Chair in thanking the The proposed devolution of APD rates for Committee staff for the hard work that they direct long-haul flights signifies a progressive have done in the preparation of the report and step in addressing the uneven strain of APD in assisting the Committee in its work on the currently levied on Northern Ireland. Although issue. I urge Members to support the motion. there remains work to be done by the Minister

158 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion of Finance and Personnel together with the the mark and ensure that we do not miss any Executive on developing a co-ordinated action opportunities when it comes to competing with plan to maximise the economic opportunities our neighbour in the Republic of Ireland. that may arise from such a change, in real Another thing worth mentioning is that there is terms, the foundation of any transformation a certain uniqueness in having this in Northern is intrinsically reliant on our support for the Ireland. To the best of my knowledge, when measures proposed. It is on those grounds that passengers come into the United Kingdom from I support the motion. a number of destinations outside the European 4.15 pm Union, they have to get a visa to do so. However, some indications are being given that, if flights Mr D McIlveen: I also support the legislative were to come directly into Northern Ireland, a consent motion. I do so not so much in a visa would not be required for inward travel in financial capacity, but I do chair the all-party the rest of the UK. If passengers then wanted to group on tourism, and I thought it worth making go to the Republic of Ireland, they could do so a contribution on that basis. as well. Therefore, there is a convenience issue that we can sell as a result of this matter being First, we commend the Finance Minister on the devolved to us. work that has gone into this. I know that he worked very hard with his colleagues the First I agree with my colleague Mr Girvan that we Minister and the Minister of Enterprise, Trade have to exercise a degree of caution over how and Investment. I know that a considerable far we take this. I know that the figure of £60 change of mindset from the Secretary of State million to £90 million has been floated in was required and that that required a fair bit relation to the cost if we were to extend this of negotiation and convincing. We have to pay to short-haul routes. As an Assembly, we have tribute to the work that the Executive have done. to be careful about the message that we send What they have achieved and, by supporting the out, because we have to accept that there are motion, what the Assembly will achieve is the families who are struggling financially at the saving of a critical air route between here and moment. There have been many debates on the New York city in North America. A number of cost of fuel and various essential household businesses have invested in Northern Ireland items. I do not begrudge people their flights very much on the basis of that air route being to Ibiza, Majorca or wherever, but, if we were in place. Therefore, it is to be greatly welcomed effectively to give a carte blanche ruling and that the Assembly is taking clear and concise extend the air passenger duty rate to short-haul action to ensure that the route is preserved. flights, that sort of investment might send out Hopefully there will be opportunities for a a damaging message in the current financial widening of the network to include other long- climate, so I think that we have to exercise haul destinations. some caution.

Like corporation tax, this gives us something This is a good news story, and we have to that we can now sell to airlines. I see that Mr welcome it. However, we also have to treat it Bradley is no longer in the Chamber, but I would with a degree of caution. Our view is that air not take as pessimistic a view as he did when passenger duty as a whole is regressive, and, he said that we had lost out and there was little in a utopian financial world, we would like to that we could do about it. The opportunities see it completely dismissed, especially in now are immense. It is only now that we should Northern Ireland. That is because the costliness try to speak to airlines such as Etihad Airways of travelling by sea, which is our alternative, and Emirates. We should make it very clear particularly for getting to the United Kingdom, that Northern Ireland has a unique product to means that we need air routes much more. sell and try to encourage airlines — hopefully I just wanted to add those few thoughts. I with the incentive of a reviewed air passenger commend the motion to the House, and I hope duty rate — that this is a place that they should that every party will unite around it as they did give very serious consideration to coming to. It with corporation tax. would mean that we could compete much better with Dublin and the routes that it has to offer, Mr A Maginness (Chairperson of the and I certainly look forward to that challenge. Committee for Enterprise, Trade and I think that all Departments will step up to Investment): The Committee for Enterprise,

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Trade and Investment considered papers from Green Party, which was obviously outside the Finance and Personnel Committee on enjoying the benefits of global warming. the motion and is convinced that there is an overwhelming case for the transfer of the duty to I was just thinking during the debate what Stormont. would have been said had we had a discussion on air passenger duty four or five years ago, The Committee was also impressed by the when I was in another post and was being various arguments that have been rehearsed criticised for holding certain views. This duty here today, including the argument that we — Mr Cree mentioned this in his speech; have the highest rate in Europe and that there he was the only one to do so — started as is heavy reliance on air links to access Britain an environmental tax, designed to deal with and other markets for business and tourism an urgent environmental issue and to stop travellers and so on. However, the Committee people travelling in aeroplanes because of focused on the need to stimulate foreign direct the emissions. It was welcomed, not just on investment, and the link between here and the fringes by the Green Party but even within Newark is, of course, very important. That North mainstream parties. Indeed, I remember that, at American linkage is vital in having a direct times in the Assembly, Members spoke about long-haul route to attract investors from North the need to change economic behaviour and the America to Northern Ireland. So, on that basis, way we behaved and how we had to have those the Committee was supportive of this move. burdens imposed on us.

The Committee also heard evidence from Almac All these things have serious economic Ltd informing it that the company had expanded consequences. Air passenger duty — Members its business to the United States, resulting in from all parties have recognised this today — company representatives travelling back and was designed and specifically mentioned as a forth on a weekly basis. That highlights the way of cutting down on air miles and the number need to retain a strong link both for foreign of air journeys being taken. Ministers at one direct investment companies maintaining a time boasted that cheap holidays to Spain, direct linkage with their home base and for France and elsewhere in the world would have indigenous companies expanding their business to stop if we were going to save the world and links to particular export markets in the United that this was a way of doing it. All Members States and further afield in North America. have acknowledged today that it has had a That, together with the recent visit by the First detrimental impact on our economy. Indeed, Minister and deputy First Minister and the the United Kingdom is losing out because of Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to the decision not to increase capacity at the hub Asia, underpins the need to be able to attract airport, Heathrow, which is an equally important flights from the growing markets in Asia if FDI issue for people from Northern Ireland and one is to be drawn from those regions. They are that makes air transport more expensive. important areas for potential future investment. I deeply regret that we missed out on Emirates. A number of Members have congratulated That is and should be a sore point for all of us. I the Executive on the action that was taken. think that the duty was a significant factor in the We grasped at a very early stage the impact decision to go to Dublin. that the duty would have, especially on the direct-haul flight to North America. That I would like to conclude on that note. I direct long-haul flight had important business congratulate the Minister for his application consequences, and, indeed, a number of to the issue and for successfully winning the Members mentioned the importance of direct- Treasury’s support. It is a very difficult thing to haul flights. The Chairman of the Enterprise, do, and I do not know how he worked it. Perhaps Trade and Investment Committee spelt out the the extreme situation that we were in worked detailed work that the Committee has done. wonders with the Treasury. There is absolutely no doubt that direct long- Mr Wilson: I am pleased that we had an haul flights open up markets, and, wherever informed debate and that we had such flights are opened up, trade with that region unanimity around the Chamber on this matter. increases dramatically, both in and out, and We did not have the dissenting voice of the opens up immense opportunities.

160 Executive Committee Business: Monday 28 May 2012 Finance Bill: Legislative Consent Motion

It was identified at an early stage that the However, I do not think that is the end of that duty would have severe impacts on the work story. Airlines will always look for opportunities, that Arlene Foster was doing. She was looking and Arlene Foster will tirelessly search to North America for investment and seeking those out. The north American connection is to grow the current batch of firms operating important, as are connections to other parts of in Northern Ireland that appreciated the fact the world, especially where there are growing that their managing directors and technicians economies. We probably have to look beyond and whatnot could fly in directly to Northern Europe to the growing economies that are Ireland. This duty was going to have a severely further away and try to get direct long-haul limiting impact on the investment strategy. No flights to those places so that we can build one Minister can take credit for this; let me say up a base in areas where there is greater that. The First and deputy First Minister, the economic potential. Therefore, I am not totally Enterprise Minister and I all pressed the issue, downhearted, but it would have been very and there was tireless work by officials in my beneficial if we had had that power available or Department and the Department of Enterprise, if we had had the decision to reduce the rate Trade and Investment. before that decision was made by Emirates.

I have got to say that, when it came close to the Other Members, including the Committee time when panic buttons were being pressed all Chairman, made the point about the wider over the place, work was being done by Hugo devolution of air passenger duty, and I know Swire. I was just reflecting on it before I came to the Committee’s view on the matter. Mr Girvan the Chamber. It was a day like this, this time last and Mr McIlveen outlined very well some of year. We met Hugo Swire in the middle of the the dangers in simply saying that we should holidays, down at Stormont House. We sat out devolve air passenger duty totally to Northern on the patio and had a nice cup of tea, and we Ireland and cut the rate for all flights to zero. emphasised to him that we needed this message First, it is costly; secondly, it cannot be done to get through. We told him that we could not quickly, and we needed a quick decision on emphasise enough the message that had to go the issue. However, even if we said now that to the Treasury. The First Minister has referred we should build on the current devolution and to this on a number of occasions. Despite look for wider devolution, we would have to opposition from Treasury officials, who still bear in mind that although it would benefit the pockets of individual families, many flights that seemed to think that there was plenty of time on we would cut air passenger duty on would not this, the Chancellor himself intervened and took have any direct benefit to the Northern Ireland this decision. That was after numerous calls to economy. It would benefit individuals by making him emphasising the importance of the issue. it cheaper for them to go on holiday or to fly out It shows that, sometimes, in these matters you to their apartments in other parts of Europe at need to have built up a political rapport so that Easter, summer and Christmas time. However, you can get decisions made. People say that the we would be taking money from public services Westminster Government are not responsive to in Northern Ireland to reduce air passenger duty the needs of the regions. I have to say that, at for economically non-productive flights, and I am times, it is frustrating, but I can think of a not sure that that would be a good use of the number of occasions when there have been resources that are available to us. positive responses at Treasury level, and those As I said, the Executive have taken the position responses have been for the good of Northern that air passenger duty is a bad tax, but it Ireland. This is one such occasion. No individual would be wrong for us to ask for that power to Minister or Department can take credit for this. be devolved to us so that we could ameliorate A concerted effort was made, and it is a good the impact of a bad tax. It is an issue that example of the energy of Ministers in this local the United Kingdom Government should be Assembly and of officials in Departments and dealing with in the longer run. Having listened the contacts that they have made actually to debates on this issue in the House of paying off. Commons, I can tell you that there is a growing awareness that this level of taxation for a 4.30 pm spurious environmental reason is not finding Mr Bradley made the point that, unfortunately, acceptance with an increasing number of it came too late for the Emirates decision. Members in the House of Commons.

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In conclusion, as far as the process is concerned Committee Business now, we will await Royal Assent of the Finance Bill. Then, I will present a Bill to the Assembly to Fuel Poverty bring the air passenger duty rate down to zero. That should become effective by the end of the Mr Deputy Speaker: The Business Committee year or the beginning of the next financial year. has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 Hopefully, on that basis, we will have yet another minutes for the debate. The proposer will have weapon in our armoury when it comes to 15 minutes to propose the motion and 15 seeking investment into Northern Ireland and minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other increasing flights to Northern Ireland. Members who wish to speak shall have five minutes. I welcome the fact that there has been unanimous support. I thank the members on Mr A Maskey (The Chairperson of the Committee the two Committees — Enterprise, Trade and for Social Development): I beg to move Investment and Finance and Personnel — for their work. I look forward to the next stage when That this Assembly approves the report of the Committee for Social Development on fuel poverty; the Bill will be brought forward in September, and calls on the Minister for Social Development as that will enable us to give effect to the to implement its recommendations to ensure a changes that are contained in the Finance Bill at strategic, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral Westminster. approach is adopted to reduce and prevent fuel poverty. Question put and agreed to. Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Resolved: Today’s motion fits, coincidentally, with a Fuel That this Assembly agrees that the provisions in Poverty Coalition event that is under way in the clause 189 of and schedule 23 to the Finance Bill, Long Gallery. Therefore, I propose to introduce as introduced in the House of Commons on 10 and speak to the motion and then Mickey Brady, May 2012, dealing with the devolution of Northern the Deputy Chair, will make the winding-up Ireland long-haul rates of air passenger duty should speech on behalf of the Committee. I thank him be considered by the UK Parliament. for doing that.

I thank all the Committee members for the work that they engaged in to arrive at this report. I have a very special word of gratitude for the officials, Kevin Pelan and others, who worked very hard to have the report prepared; the Department; the Minister; the other Departments; the stakeholders and all those who contributed to the work involved, particularly the fuel poverty event that we held in the Long Gallery some time ago, which enabled us to produce this comprehensive report. Those Members who have had a chance to look at it, or will do so after the debate, will understand that it is an accurate reflection of the discussions that were held between the Department and the stakeholders. We are trying to move it forward to the next stage, which will, obviously, be action-driven and -orientated.

Simply put, the definition of fuel poverty is any household that spends more than 10% of its income on fuel to maintain an adequate level of warmth in the home. In 2011, the Department for Social Development (DSD) brought out the report, ‘Defining Fuel Poverty in Northern Ireland’, which produced a different method

162 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty for considering fuel poverty rates based on fuel poverty. That equates to some 75,000 households spending roughly twice the median households that are spending at least 20% of — in other words, 20% of their household their income on energy bills. So, regrettably, income — on fuel as opposed to 10%. However, we are at the top of the fuel poverty league on the report also concluded that the 10% these islands. That is not something we can threshold would continue to be used and that tolerate or be proud of. the 20% threshold could be used to identify We asked why the problem is so bad here. As those in severe fuel poverty. Therefore, for the the Committee report notes, fuel poverty is purposes of this report and the work of the caused by the interaction of high fuel prices, low Committee, we will retain the use of the original income and poor energy efficiency in homes. definition of fuel poverty at the rate of 10% of a The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) report ‘Off-Grid household’s income. Energy’, which was published some time ago, Members will be aware that the Committee’s noted that the markets in England, Scotland and report is based on a fuel poverty event hosted Wales are very similar, with between 12% and by the Social Development Committee and 25% of households off-grid — in other words, supported, I am glad to say, by the Chairs not connected to the mains gas grid — and of all the other relevant Committees. Eight with heating oil and electricity being the main Committees in the Assembly have some scrutiny fuels used. However, here in the North, 80% of role in respect of their governing Departments. people are off-grid and around 80% of them are All the Departments represented on the then using home heating oil. Over the past number interdepartmental group on fuel poverty also of years, all of us have seen the price of gas, attended, as did over 30 stakeholders from the oil and electricity increase quite dramatically. public and private sectors. We all recognised Indeed, around 90% of the variation in the that it was a truly collaborative event, with a price of heating oil over time is explained by focus on identifying solutions to fuel poverty. movements in the price of crude oil. At the same time, we all know that there has been no I hope that Members and the Minister will comparable increase in wages or benefits. So, it recognise that that spirit of collaboration is inevitable that fuel costs will increasingly put is maintained in the report and the a considerable strain on household budgets. recommendations therein. Indeed, with the support of the Committee, I met the permanent The cost of heating a home accounts for a far secretary of the Department several months ago bigger proportion of total income for those on to discuss some of the key recommendations benefits or low wages. In an era of wage cuts or of the report and to consider a positive and co- freezes, and with benefits likely to come under operative way forward. pressure as a result of welfare reform, together with increasing fuel prices, it is self-evident The report is not about confronting the that affordability will increasingly become a Department for Social Development or any other greater issue for those affected. As we have Department about the shortcomings, perceived often heard before, that can often leave people or real, in the approach to fuel poverty; the issue having to decide between eating and heating. is too big to attempt any point scoring. Rather, it The Department’s plans for tackling poverty, is about making recommendations to complement in association with other Departments, are the Department’s approach. I will deal with extremely important in that regard. Ultimately, some of the detail of that in due course. providing opportunities for employment is key to lifting people out of poverty as a whole. I think that it would be worthwhile to set the problem in context. The Department of Energy The final element is poor energy efficiency in and Climate Change’s (DECC) ‘Annual report homes. That is largely due to an older housing on Fuel Poverty Statistics 2011’ states that in stock in the North. I recognise the work that the year of estimate, which was 2009, England, the Housing Executive and the Department Wales, Scotland and the North had fuel poverty are doing to address that through the warm rates of 18%, 26%, 33% and 44% respectively. homes scheme, the insulation of 9,000 homes Although a different methodology is used to a year for the next three years and the target calculate the rate in the rest of Ireland, the of providing double glazing for all Housing figure there is around 19%. Thirteen per cent Executive homes, all of which is very welcome. of households in the North are also in severe The recently announced £12 million allocation

163 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty to the boiler replacement scheme to improve The main purpose of the report is to do two energy efficiency in 16,000 homes is also very things. First, it is to continue to highlight the welcome. Although the causes of fuel poverty need for radical action to tackle fuel poverty as are, at one level, simple to understand, I think it affects those who we represent, but it also we all realise that there are no simple or quick- provides a mechanism for doing that, and I want fix solutions. Technical solutions are, of course, to deal with that in a moment or two. Although one — but only one — part of the answer. the report is not prescriptive about what it wants That is also at the heart of the Committee’s the Department to do, we are very conscious in report: recognition that the interaction of those the first instance that the Department and the three key causes results in a complex problem Minister for Social Development have a lead requiring a strategic, cross-sectoral and cross- responsibility within the Executive. departmental approach. The mandate from 2007 states:

The nature of the report may come as a bit of “DSD has the lead responsibility for tackling fuel a surprise to some people because it does poverty, a role which involves the coordination of not demand that the Minister set any specific information, engagement with departments and targets to reduce fuel poverty. The reliance other organisations that influence the factors on oil, coupled with the vagaries of global oil which contribute to fuel poverty and more directly, prices, may make such targets meaningless through the provision of funding for and oversight of the Warm Homes Scheme.” or at least difficult to achieve. Nor does the report call on the Minister to implement specific That has recently been updated with the fuel actions in order to implement the solutions that poverty strategy: were proposed by stakeholders at the event we held and that are listed in our report. In “other departments also have a significant role to play in the eradication of fuel poverty. There many respects, it would have been easy for the are clear links to other government strategies Committee to produce a report that did precisely including the Northern Ireland Strategic Energy that: a populist report that is warmly welcomed Framework, the Green New Deal, the Sustainable — no pun intended — easily understood and, of Energy Initiative, and the forthcoming new Child course, just as easily forgotten. The Committee Poverty Strategy. Closer working, not only between agrees that because of the nature of the government departments, but between government problem, that type of report would add little to and the private and voluntary sectors is vital. the argument and certainly would not provide There is a strong body of evidence that partnership working is the best way to tackle fuel poverty. We many solutions. will work with other government departments, the Furthermore, there was a considerable debate voluntary sector, the energy sector and others who are committed to alleviating fuel poverty.” at the event over the solutions that needed to be implemented and how they should be That is the mandate that our Department works implemented. Calling on the Minister to under, and our role as a Committee is to ensure implement certain proposed solutions was, to our that we are holding the Department to account thinking, not necessarily an appropriate next step. for that, but also working collaboratively with the Department to develop those policies within 4.45 pm the Department’s bailiwick, but also, crucially, We feel that there was much more work to with all the other relevant Departments. As be done to analyse what was a priority, what I said earlier, eight Departments here have was achievable and what would eventually some contributory role to play in tackling fuel be value for money. The Committee focused poverty. What we are trying to do is to work with the Department for Social Development on the mechanisms by which stakeholders and the Minister, building on their commitment could further engage formally with the relevant and their responsibilities in the Programme for Departments to objectively consider which of Government, but also, crucially, to work with all the solutions that have been identified are the other Departments to make sure that we get practicable, cost-effective and, indeed, a priority. it right in a timely fashion. In many ways, the report, therefore, lays down as big a challenge to stakeholders as to the A central idea in our report is the establishment Departments. It does not let anyone off the of what we call thematic action groups, or TAGS, hook on the issue. as they have been referred to. Those groups

164 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty would be based on the themes identified as a practical solutions to the problems that we result of the discussion at the fuel poverty event all face as a result of fuel poverty. I say that and would be convened under the umbrella not to criticise the wide range of solutions of the relevant Departments. Those groups that were proposed to the Committee but to would discuss or tease out specific proposed acknowledge that it is clear that further scrutiny solutions, as outlined in the report. They would is required on the basis of evidence to distil determine which solutions are achievable based these proposals into what can be achieved. on evidence and make recommendations to the That will also challenge preconceived ideas and recently established cross-sectoral fuel poverty even prejudices, but, ultimately, I believe that partnership on initiatives that they recommend it will help to bring clarity and objectivity to the for implementation. The work of those thematic way forward and will underpin the work of those groups would be time-bound and would not whose aim is to end fuel poverty. exceed six months. I would like to say a few words about the I acknowledge that the cross-sectoral fuel importance of a cross-sectoral, cross- poverty partnership has only recently been departmental approach. Numerous times in established and has met on only a few this Chamber and, I am sure, in each of the occasions. In recognition of that, the report Statutory Committees, we have heard calls for recommends that the Department revisit the more joined-up government. We have also heard partnership to bring senior decision-makers questions asking why there is not more cross- into its membership, to include the chairs of departmental working and whether the left hand the proposed thematic action groups, and knows what the right hand is doing. We have perhaps to be chaired by the Minister for Social made those sorts of comments ourselves, and, Development himself. to a large extent, they are justified. However, A number of the stakeholders favoured we in the Statutory Committees run the risk of the establishment of a ministerial task being the pot that calls the kettle black. force, as they had concerns that the then The Committee’s fuel poverty event in some interdepartmental group on fuel poverty, ways highlighted that Committees can work more despite the best intentions, had perhaps been directly together. Eight Statutory Committees ineffective. That is what was said by others who were represented on the evening, and the were involved in that work previously. There are Chairs of all those Committees took an active lingering concerns among stakeholders that part by hosting a table of stakeholders and by the current partnership is perhaps a rebranding chairing discussions. That sent out a very of that previous group. To address that, the important message about building political Committee’s proposals add to that mechanism momentum to address fuel poverty across all by being more inclusive, favouring the bottom-up parties and Departments. It also sent a more approach that puts the onus on stakeholders general message about being open to new ways of and officials to work together, and which cross-Committee working to harness that political challenges their own views on the way forward. weight to address other issues of concern. Importantly, the work of the thematic action groups is also time-bound. In other words, the Assembly has to take its responsibility firmly. It is not enough for us to I would also like to allay any fears that the work say that Departments need to work together; of the thematic groups or the cross-sectoral the Assembly also has that responsibility. Each fuel poverty partnership will be a duplication scrutiny Committee has the very important role of some sort. Rather, the Committee sees of scrutinising its Department, but Committees the work of the partnership as co-ordinating also have a responsibility to work together co- a strategic approach to the implementation operatively. I think that that will prove beneficial of initiatives arising from the work of the to all of us in the end. It is easy to say that thematic groups and monitoring progress on given that DSD takes the lead, fuel poverty is that implementation. As I said earlier, the work its problem. I am sure that the Minister will of those groups also lays a challenge to the agree that pressure must be put on each of the potential production of a wish list. other relevant Departments via our respective We cannot waste any more time talking. Committees to ensure that strategic and co- We need to take strong action to determine ordinated action is taken on fuel poverty.

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The Committee’s report is not an end point — level, children may be unable to attend school because of ill health caused by living in cold, Mr Deputy Speaker: Will you bring your remarks damp conditions. It may be difficult to wash and to a close, please? dry uniforms. The money that a family needs to Mr A Maskey: I will, a LeasCheann Comhairle. spend on heat, light and fuel will impact on the This report is not an end point in the debate money that is available for a child to access a on fuel poverty; quite the opposite. It marks good diet, as well as extra-curricular activities. the beginning of a different approach in the Finally, fuel poverty has most impact in the dark, Assembly, one that I believe will ultimately cold winter months, when there might not be converge with the Department’s. money in households to have light and heat. That could, of course, lead to low educational Ms P Bradley: I also praise all those who are attainment. responsible for producing the report. Fuel poverty is not just a case of people being a As the Chair said, no one Department little bit cold in the depths of winter. Certainly, can address the many complex issues the recent warm weather means that it can be that contribute to 44% of our households difficult to think just how the many people in experiencing some form of fuel poverty. Indeed, Northern Ireland who live in fuel poverty might some issues may be outside the scope and feel, but fuel poverty is a reality in this country. remit of any Department. I welcome the work that the Minister has already done in ensuring Fuel poverty means that some of the most maximum benefit uptake through the use of vulnerable members of our community, such publicity in local media and the availability of as those on a fixed or low income, the very old services, such as the benefit checker, which and the very young, are living in cold, damp people can access and which can go some way environments. We know that those are the to addressing fuel poverty in Northern Ireland. conditions that encourage certain bacteria to grow and multiply. The Surgeon General has Working together, we can, hopefully, ensure already indicated the scale of the problem by that no person should have to choose between highlighting that, in the past decade, over 1,000 heat and food and that we protect the most deaths have occurred as a direct consequence vulnerable in our society. I support the motion. of people living in fuel poverty. For me, one Mr Copeland: I, too, support the motion. death caused by fuel poverty is one too many. Looking at the weather outside and thinking Therefore, not addressing this issue, as back to the cold of last winter, it is almost highlighted in the report, is not an option. It is impossible to conceive that we are living in important to identify why cross-departmental the same climate. It is not easy, in the glow of working is vital in the development of an summer, to remember those who are, in many effective strategy for addressing fuel poverty. cases, less fortunate and for whom the winter At a basic level, we cannot afford to have brings a complex and different set of difficulties. people living in conditions that can have many I believe, and am justified in believing, that the outcomes. At a higher level, we know that fuel Social Development Committee displayed a poverty impacts on many areas of people’s good deal of courage in seeking opinions from lives, from health to education to the ability to those who know about this particular difficulty work. For example, living in such conditions is in the format in which it did in the Great Hall. known to cause illness, which in turn means Bringing people with an agenda, which many of that financial resources in our National Health them had, to a room and asking them what they Service are utilised to treat such conditions think and how their thoughts can be applied in the community and in our hospitals. If we to the solution of a problem sometimes does tackled fuel poverty effectively, that money could not lead to anything that could be described be diverted to other areas of the NHS. as a good outcome. I was present at the We ask people daily to take responsibility for event; I have been present at, I think, all the their health. Therefore, we have a duty to ensure Social Development Committee meetings at that we are maximising every opportunity that which this has been discussed. It has been a we have to reduce the impact of fuel poverty worthwhile exercise. The result of that exercise on the most vulnerable. Fuel poverty can also has been what can only be described as a impact on educational outcomes. At a basic well-researched, well-conducted report. I join

166 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty the Chair of the Committee in paying tribute to, Elements of the home heating oil industry require initially, the members of the Committee and, in a degree of examination. I have run out of oil on particular, the Assembly staff who service the a number of occasions and I have gone to my Committee. This represents something that I am local garage and purchased the blue barrels, personally very keen on: an outcome. Outcomes which seem to be inordinately expensive. Trying are something that processes do not always to regulate an industry that has so many result in, but this particular process has. distributors is tantamount to impossible. I have never been one for taking on the impossible; the We are all in agreement about the effects of difficult I do practically every day, but the fuel poverty. We all concur that they can be impossible takes a little bit longer. I imagine devastating, and disproportionately devastating that we would have difficulty in doing it, but I to those on low incomes, particularly the old. take the Member’s point and thank him for the Last Wednesday, with junior Minister Bell and 26 seconds that I gained through the venture. Mickey Brady — I got it right on this occasion — I attended the Pensioners Parliament. I have I struggle sometimes with what we say in here been in some bear pits and some cockpits in my and what happens outside. It could be the fact life, but let me tell you this: the pensioners of that I was not here for four years. On occasions, this Province are not to be trifled with. They have we dedicate ourselves to a debate or topic and opinions; their opinions are well founded and we speak on it and think that we do a good based on life experiences. Woe betide anybody job. Then you go back to your constituency, and who thinks they are going to bluff them. One of somebody who really knows something pokes their repeated concerns was the inordinately you in the chest and says, “Aye, that’s all right, high cost and very serious difficulties of but what are you going to do about it?” There matching, on a fixed income, energy prices that are so many times when we can do nothing. are accelerating at the speed at which they are. Northern Ireland cannot control the world price A study from Age UK revealed that two million of oil. We cannot reduce overnight the number elderly people in the United Kingdom are so of households that are dependent on fuel oil desperately cold in the depths of winter that as a method of heating. We cannot tackle the they are going to bed when they are not tired. I cartels that control the price of energy, because can only assume that Northern Ireland will have they are bigger than most Governments. On a disproportionately large share of those two this occasion, we have at least taken a step in million people. A similar number, another two conjunction with one another. I believe — million people, have moved into one room in an Mr Deputy Speaker: Will the Member draw his attempt to keep their energy bills down. remarks to a close, please? It is clear to the Committee that to deal with Mr Copeland: I was wrong about the minute, this complex issue, a gap must be bridged then. I support the motion. Thank you for your between the solution and the formulation and time and attention. implementation of a long-term strategy. Mr Durkan: I, too, support the motion. I Mr Flanagan: I will just take the Member back welcome the publication of the report on fuel to the point he raised about the Pensioners poverty and thank the officials who have worked Parliament. I note with some interest that, in diligently on its compilation. A lot of the detail comments he made following that, he said that in the report would already be known to many what we need is more regulation of the home of us as public representatives. Fuel poverty is heating oil industry. Will the Member clarify one of the single biggest issues affecting our whether his party position has changed once constituents. However, it is positive that the again and he now supports some regulation of information has been compiled and crystallised the home heating oil industry? in the report that we see today. It provides us with a good springboard from which to move 5.00 pm forward and try to bring about real, tangible Mr Deputy Speaker: The Member has an extra benefits to the people of Northern Ireland. minute. The strength of the document lies in its Mr Copeland: Thank you very much, sir. I rather cross-departmental and cross-cutting nature. suspect that, on this occasion, I will not need I have said before in the Chamber that the the extra minute, but we will see. depressingly high rate of fuel poverty here —

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44% of households was the figure that the Chair fuel poverty here once and for all. Fuel poverty used earlier — is compounded by the fact that has been on the increase in Northern Ireland our approach to tackling it has, to date, been since 2006, with 61% of older people and 83% quite fragmented. Steps are being taken to of lone older people living in fuel poverty here. address that, and that is to be commended. The sub-zero temperatures in 2010 brought I am quite heartened by the fact that there the issue to the forefront, when we saw how are targets set around the timelines for the the health of our most vulnerable was at risk establishment of the thematic action groups when many had to choose between heating and their work. The key word in that regard is and eating. With welfare reform on the way, “action”. We will be judged on our actions, so it we must seriously consider the likely changes is imperative that the guidelines are adhered to to household incomes that could push more and that various Departments are held to their people into fuel poverty. commitments in the report. Members have already mentioned many of I fear that, with continued cuts to benefits and the recommendations in the report, and I will limited employment opportunities, fuel poverty highlight some in particular. Recommendation will affect more people this year than ever 35 states that a discussion needs to take place before. Last week, we debated underoccupancy, as to whether the winter fuel payment should which will lead to social housing tenants losing, be paid as a credit to a household’s electricity, on average, £690 a year. The impact of that is gas or oil supplier as opposed to being paid certain to be felt come the winter. We need to as a cash sum. Like my colleague Mr Durkan, look at fuel poverty in the context of welfare I recommend that that be considered, as reform, and I speculate that we should provide pressure can often be felt, particularly by older for bigger numbers as a result. people, around Christmas time when they may instead use the payment for gifts when, really, I acknowledge that maximising benefit uptake they need to take care of themselves and keep is an issue for consideration by the thematic their house warm. action groups. That should be encouraged and supported. Another area for consideration is The report also recognises that the eradication whether winter fuel payments could be credited of fuel poverty is unlikely to be achieved without to household bills rather than paid in cash. the adoption of a long-term strategy. Given We would certainly be supportive of such an the likelihood that fuel prices will continue to initiative. We should also support oil saving- rise, we must seek to protect those with the stamps and innovative credit union initiatives as lowest incomes by promoting benefit checks, well as encouraging energy brokerage schemes. encouraging energy efficiency in the home and helping people to budget for their fuel Those are simple measures that are well within payments. Recommendation 36 relates to those our gift to implement and we can get quick wins issues and states that the advice sector has a here, to the benefit of our citizens. Improving significant role to play, not only to educate and the energy efficiency of our homes is the most encourage people to make their homes more sustainable means of reducing and tackling fuel energy efficient or to have their boiler serviced poverty, and we want the social investment fund regularly but to work with the various energy to be targeted towards that. suppliers to ensure that the advice given to I support the motion and look forward to the consumers is accurate and consistent and is outworking of the report. not just marketing for a particular supplier.

Mrs Cochrane: I, too, welcome the opportunity Of the half a million homes using oil, around to speak on the motion today. As a member 400,000 have old, inefficient boilers, and while of the Social Development Committee, I am I am glad that money has been awarded to the pleased that our report on fuel poverty has Housing Executive to improve energy efficiency now been published, and I believe that the through the boiler replacement scheme, I am recommendations should be implemented. disappointed that it appears that that money has been taken from funds that were earmarked Northern Ireland has the highest rate of fuel for the green new deal. That decision locks us poverty in northern Europe. Therefore, DSD into a reliance on fossil fuels, and that needs really needs to take the lead and work in to be addressed. With global energy prices collaboration with other Departments to tackle continuing to rise, we need to enable people

168 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty to use less energy through energy efficiency disposable income on it. It is important to measures as well as moving to sustainable remember as well that we are not just talking energy sources such as those proposed in the about heating a home but about fuel for green new deal. cooking. This can restrict diets, which, again, can have negative impacts on health outcomes. How can we help people to pay for their fuel? It The importance of diet has long been known in is clear that many households using oil have no relation to positive educational outcomes for option but to buy it in small amounts, resulting younger generations. in them paying substantially more per litre than those who can afford to fill their tank in one go. Tackling fuel poverty is an extremely complex I recently went to see Carillion’s pilot pay-as-you- issue that cannot be addressed by sticking go oil scheme in action, and I encourage the plasters or quick fixes. Those who are directly Minister to establish a procurement process involved in working to reduce fuel poverty long for a contract to deliver a similar pay-as-you-go lamented the lack of a joined-up approach. oil scheme to assist those who simply cannot There are three broad areas that can be seen to afford to pay large lump sums for oil in one go. be at the root of fuel poverty, the first being the cost of fuel to the household. We are extremely In conclusion, although I believe that DSD constrained in what we can do about this issue, has the main role, all other Departments have as prices are set on global markets. However, a supportive role, as demonstrated in the we have the potential to explore ways in which departmental responses in the report. I support we can help people to manage their resources the establishment of the thematic action and budget for the cost of heating. groups, which can take forward the various themes and focus on how other Departments Secondly, low income contributes to fuel poverty. can take practical steps to reduce and remove This has the potential to become a more fuel poverty. I support the motion and look influencing factor as the welfare reforms come forward to the implementation of the fuel into place. I welcome the measures that the poverty report’s recommendations. Minister has already introduced to ensure that Mr Easton: Fuel poverty is an issue that has everyone is getting the correct benefits at the long been known about in our society. It occurs correct rate and the availability of a simple-to- when a household needs to spend more than use online benefit checker that everyone can 10% of its disposable income to gain adequate access and use to ensure that they get their full warmth. That warmth is not just important entitlement. for the inhabitants but to ensure that other Finally, energy efficiency is vital. We should conditions, such as damp, are not allowed to encourage households to ensure that their take hold. heat remains in their homes. The benefits of It is noted that 44% of households are house insulation programmes are best seen experiencing fuel poverty, which is almost half through the Department of Agriculture and of households in Northern Ireland. A core group Rural Development’s (DARD) rural antipoverty of about 13% of households are in extreme and social inclusion programme, which, over fuel poverty, and that is approximately 75,000 a three-year period, provided insulation or the households. installation of central heating systems in rural communities. Indeed, the Minister for Social Fuel poverty is not just a matter of heating. Development recently announced the boiler Not having enough heat can impact negatively replacement scheme, which is to be welcomed. on health outcomes, especially for already vulnerable groups of people who have underlying We have to be conscious that certain groups health problems. The Surgeon General’s report of people are more at risk of fuel poverty, and indicates that 1,890 winter deaths over the we must strive, through the strategy, to use past decade are directly attributed to people innovative ways to reach these people. Rural living in damp and cold conditions. In particular, dwellers, for example, have their own unique our older generations are at risk. They often vulnerabilities when it comes to the rising cost have static income sources with low interest of fuel, and they are often extremely limited rates that do not give them high enough returns in their choice of fuel and do not have access on their savings, which means that as fuel to cheaper alternatives. They also tend to be prices rise, they have to spend more of their very reliant on their vehicles, in which they may

169 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty put fuel rather than heat their home. DARD’s new deal scheme and moving ahead with a programme has gone some way to address this, boiler replacement scheme fits in with that aim. but we need a cross-departmental and cross- Although the boiler replacement scheme will sectoral approach so that we can effectively improve the efficiency of many boilers and can address issues around fuel poverty and help be used as a method of moving people from oil to prevent households from entering the fuel to gas, the potential success of the green new poverty trap. deal has been set aside, primarily because it appeared to be too radical for the Minister and In conclusion, I thank the Clerk of the some of his civil servants. Committee for Social Development and his staff for their hard work on the report. Hopefully, it 5.15 pm will go a long way towards helping the most vulnerable in society to get away from the fuel The eradication of fuel poverty can be achieved poverty trap. if the key stakeholders involved engage effectively together. This is not an either/or Mr Flanagan: Go raibh maith agat, a situation, and it is within the ability of the energy LeasCheann Comhairle. I pay tribute to regulator, government, consumer advocacy the members of the Committee for Social groups and the energy companies to deliver on Development for the work that they have done that aim together. to bring the report forward. I am not a member of the Committee, but as my party’s energy Delivering affordable warmth through investment spokesperson, I take a keen interest in it. in heating and insulation programmes meets environmental and social objectives. As energy The long-term solution to fuel poverty, and prices continue to rise, fuel poverty can only be one that fulfils the aims of reducing carbon tackled by increasing our focus on the energy emissions, is to increase significantly the efficiency and the energy costs of those in energy efficiency of fuel-poor households. We fuel poverty, especially low-income, vulnerable need to take a three-pronged approach to this householders. The long-term solution to fuel issue. First, we need to improve the energy poverty and one that supports the objective performance of domestic properties. Secondly, of reducing carbon emissions is to increase we need to encourage behavioural change that dramatically the energy efficiency of fuel-poor requires education on issues of consumption households. patterns and transparent building formats. Thirdly, we need to provide the most vulnerable Although the current sustainable energy households with energy-related benefits. interdepartmental working group is a good start, progress to date has been slow. What we need Fuel poverty in the North of Ireland is at record is closer working between the Department of levels, disproportionately affecting the most the Environment, the Department of Enterprise, vulnerable people in our society. Any energy Trade and Investment, the Department of policy that we introduce must seek to make Agriculture and Rural Development and the provision and place protections for consumers in Department for Regional Development to deliver such a situation. It is clear that the Department the needed energy infrastructure that will for Social Development needs to play a key role protect domestic and commercial consumers. in the fight against fuel poverty. However, with Furthermore, departmental working needs energy policy currently sitting with the to be evident in the delivery of zero-carbon Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, public housing and government buildings. The which also has a role in growing the economy Department of Finance and Personnel, the and in supporting our business community, it is Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment hard to merely accept that fuel poverty is given and the Department for Social Development the urgent priority that it requires if we are to need to work together to deliver that. The eliminate it from our society. Department of Health, Social Services and Fuel-poor households must be given the Public Safety is heavily affected by the decisions resources to reduce their energy demand taken on energy policy, so it is critical that its through increased energy efficiency measures. voice is heard. The Office of the First Minister Home heating must be achievable at an and deputy First Minister is responsible for affordable cost. It is, therefore, very difficult tackling poverty, and the link between energy to understand how the scrapping of the green prices and levels of poverty is easily made.

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The current arrangements are not working. will seek to find realistic rather than idealistic Inefficient and delayed decision-making has solutions to reduce and prevent fuel poverty. resulted in higher prices for consumers and Each group will be responsible for developing businesses and higher operating costs. It has a work plan, which will contain various actions. also led to increased proportions of people That will avoid any danger of the groups turning living in fuel poverty. into talking shops. Those plans should also be published regularly. Each thematic action Dealing with our energy challenge cannot be group will report to the Social Development done with different Departments acting in Committee on its progress and an overarching isolation. All Departments need to work together cross-departmental group will be established to with the ultimate objective of one Department monitor progress of the implementation of the taking responsibility for all energy-related matters. agreed initiatives. That overarching group has Tacaím leis an rún. I support the motion. already been established, which demonstrates Ms Brown: I will speak on the report as a the commitment of the Committee, the Minister member of the Social Development Committee. and the Department to see fuel poverty tackled First and foremost, I very much welcome the and prevented. The group, which is called the report and want to put on record my thanks to cross-sectoral fuel poverty partnership, will be the Committee Clerk and staff, who assisted the made up of the chairs of each thematic action Committee in its drafting and completion of the group and permanent secretaries of each report. relevant Department, with the Minister for Social Development acting as chair. Fuel poverty is even more pressing today than it was five years ago. The price of energy, such The report’s proposals provide a joined-up way as oil, gas, coal and electricity, is the highest it forward to tackle and prevent fuel poverty. I has been for some time. Therefore, that means know of many people in my constituency of that more and more people are at risk of falling South Antrim who are struggling. Lone parents, into fuel poverty, where they cut back and suffer pensioners, the sick and even working families in the cold because they just cannot afford to are all faced with soaring heating costs on top heat their homes and keep warm. Although fuel of the other pressures of life. Heating your poverty is more likely to affect older people, it is home and keeping your family warm is surely affecting far too many families across Northern a basic human need. Heat is not a luxury but Ireland. a requirement and not having it has major implications for one’s health and leads to The fuel poverty strategy, which was launched avoidable healthcare demands and the costs in March 2011, identified that 44% of people in associated with that. Therefore, we need to do Northern Ireland live in fuel poverty. That figure more for those who are in need, and the report’s is truly stark and most concerning. To date, the proposals offer a means of making things Department for Social Development has taken better. I support the motion. a lead role in tackling fuel poverty. However, as identified in the report, there is a need for Mr Agnew: I welcome the Committee report a more collaborative, cross-departmental and and the focus that it gives to fuel poverty. Many cross-sectoral approach to address fuel poverty. before me outlined the severity of the issue. I welcome the overall recommendation to ensure Despite fuel poverty having been talked about a strategic cross-departmental and cross- for some time, the situation is not being sectoral approach to reducing and preventing resolved, and more and more people are being fuel poverty. If I am honest, I would have affected by it. Any solution will not eradicate fuel welcomed more specific recommendations from poverty in a short time, and eradication is the the Committee on the three key areas that have ultimate objective. Therefore, the report calls for been highlighted: low incomes; rising energy a long-term strategic policy approach. costs; and tackling the energy inefficiency of our housing stock. However, I appreciate the It was for those reasons that the Committee outcomes that have been mentioned around proposed the establishment of thematic action the working groups that are to be established, groups, based on themes identified in the hopefully, as a result of the report. evidence-gathering exercise undertaken for the report. Each thematic action group will have On low incomes, we need to ensure that we a particular theme attached to its brief and speak with one voice from the Chamber. Often,

171 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty when debating the rebalancing of the Northern Voluntary Action, the Northern Ireland Federation Ireland economy, we bemoan the high public of Housing Associations and Save the Children, sector wages and benefits that, apparently, are have called for an area-based approach. So, strangling our private sector. However, I do note there have been many calls, not just from the and agree with the Finance Minister’s recent Green Party but from various sectors and various comments on regional pay, when he stated that stakeholders with an interest in fuel poverty. we should not seek to drive down pay in the public sector but should seek to drive up pay The green new deal group’s proposals offered in the private sector. We should remember this the Minister the opportunity to move to a debate when we talk about the economy. co-ordinated and coherent approach to fuel poverty; an approach that would have created Government can do very little about the genuine efficiencies, that is, the opportunity to spiralling price rises in oil and gas. As fossil provide more effective help to more households fuels diminish, demand for them increases with the same amount of money. That differs and, inevitably, costs go up. What we can do is from the usual government definition of efficiency, drive towards renewables and to alternatives which usually just translates as cuts. The green to fossil fuels. Indeed, as the report mentions, new deal proposals provided the opportunity to in the shorter term, brokering initiatives can be unlock up to £80 million worth of efficiencies developed. As chair of the all-party group on from a £12 million government spend. co-operatives and mutuals, I welcome the fact Mr Deputy Speaker: The Member’s time is that, on the back of a meeting that we held on almost up. energy, we could see Northern Ireland’s first energy co-operative. That could help to tackle Mr Agnew: Lord Whitty categorised our current some of our immediate energy issues. approach. He stated:

Energy efficiency is, perhaps, the area where the “There are a range of schemes, therefore, all of Assembly can do most. There are more deaths which have relatively small resources and little from winter-related illnesses in Northern Ireland overall coherence. The range of schemes and than in Finland, which is a much colder country. the different methods of delivery cause both sub We have to ask why that is and what it is that optimal efficiency and confusion.” we are getting wrong. I have no doubt that the The green new deal could have tackled that. inefficiency of the housing stock is a big factor. The Minister’s decision on that issue was a In Finland, the figures show that levels of cavity disgrace. wall insulation, roof insulation, floor insulation and double glazing are at 100% in every case. Mr Deputy Speaker: I call on the Minister for I do not have the figures for Northern Ireland, Social Development, Mr Nelson McCausland, to but, in the UK, cavity wall insulation is at 25% respond to the debate. and floor insulation is at 4%. It is clear to see why we, as part of the UK, are falling down Mr Kennedy: Time. [Laughter.] substantially in how we tackle fuel poverty. Mr McCausland (The Minister for Social We need an area-based approach to improving Development): I thank Mr Kennedy for his the energy efficiency of our housing stock, such helpful advice. [Laughter.] as that which is proposed by the green new deal I am grateful for the opportunity to respond group. The motion talks about a cross-sectoral to the debate and thank the Members who approach. That is a cross-body group in that it have contributed to it. I also welcome the contains groups such as Friends of the Earth, Social Development Committee’s report on the Ulster Farmers’ Union, the Confederation of fuel poverty. I have listened carefully to the British Industry and the Institute of Directors, comments expressed by Members. If my amongst others. Such an approach has also response fails to address any specific points, I been recommended by Lord Whitty in his recent will, of course, write to Members separately. report for the Consumer Council, ‘Energising Northern Ireland’. Indeed, numerous groups that The motion calls on me to implement the provided submissions to inform the Committee’s Committee’s recommendations to ensure that report, such as the Chartered Institute of a strategic, cross-departmental and cross- Environmental Health, the Irish Congress of sectoral approach is adopted to reduce and Trade Unions, the Northern Ireland Council for prevent fuel poverty. I welcome this opportunity

172 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty to update Members on the range of activities not previously been eligible for government my Department is undertaking to tackle fuel assistance. In addition, over 640 local poverty, in particular the amalgamation of the installers got work from the scheme, providing interdepartmental group on fuel poverty and the a much-needed boost to the local construction fuel poverty advisory group into the new cross- industry. Last week, I announced a new boiler sectoral fuel poverty partnership. replacement scheme, which will build on the success of the pilot. The report from the Social Development Committee was the product of an event held in An amount of £12 million has been set aside November last year, at which representatives for the scheme over the next three years. In from Statutory Committees, Departments, the period between the pilot ending and the the private sector and non-governmental announcement being made last week, many organisations discussed practical solutions letters came into the Department calling for to fuel poverty. I have spoken many times of the scheme to be continued. It is an immensely my commitment to tackling fuel poverty, and popular scheme and has been extremely it continues to be one of my top priorities. successful. In the coming weeks, I hope to However, we are all too aware of the extent of announce additional funding for the scheme, the problem in Northern Ireland and of the fact which will be part-financed by the European that just talking about it will not resolve it. regional development fund under the European Sustainable Competitiveness Programme for The definition of fuel poverty has been explored Northern Ireland. That could see an additional in depth by Professor Christine Liddell from 16,000 people benefit from the grant available. the University of Ulster and John Hills in In regard to the boiler replacement scheme, I Great Britain. That work is very welcome and visited the home of senior citizens who were emphasises that fuel poverty is a real problem saving on an entire oil fill in the year by the in Northern Ireland. The time has come to installation of the new boiler. That is very concentrate on practical solutions that will significant. The installation of the boiler enabled make a real difference to the thousands of them to reduce the cost of heating oil over householders in Northern Ireland who are the course of the year by one third. That is struggling to pay their energy bills. I want to take significant, important and a good example of a few minutes to remind Members of what we real delivery. are doing to tackle fuel poverty. 5.30 pm My Department’s fuel poverty strategy document, ‘Warmer Healthier Homes’, was In addition, my colleague Minister Foster published in April 2011 and set out our vision last week announced the renewable heat for the future as: incentive, offering grants to householders to install renewable technology to improve their “a society in which people live in a warm, energy efficiency. This represents a significant comfortable home and need not worry about the investment in the improvement of domestic effect of the cold on their health.” energy efficiency and is an important step in preventing fuel poverty. It will also sustain I remain committed to that vision, and I want jobs, create investment and improve health. to back it up with practical measures that help I will announce further details of the boiler people in fuel poverty. In addition to continuing replacement scheme in the coming days. to deliver mainstream schemes such as the Warm Homes Scheme, the Housing Executive’s (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) heating replacement scheme, a benefits uptake campaign and winter fuel and cold weather Members will be aware of the pay-as-you-go oil payments, my Department is working on a pilot, which my officials have been working on number of new and exciting pilots. with representatives from Kingspan Renewables and Carillion Energy Services to deliver. This The recent boiler replacement scheme entitled innovative approach is aimed at discouraging eligible householders to a grant of £1,500 people from purchasing emergency oil drums. towards the cost of installing a new boiler. The pilot was to run for three months and will That pilot was hugely successful, and almost come to an end in the next few weeks. It will be 1,700 inefficient boilers have been replaced, subject to a full evaluation to see whether this helping many low-income households that had is something we can bring into future domestic

173 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty energy efficiency improvement schemes. Early “to identify measures to reduce fuel poverty and feedback is that the pilot has worked really well, propose implementation mechanisms within the so I look forward to that evaluation. An example wider strategic policy context”. brought to my attention was of a low-income I chaired the first meeting of the partnership. At family with a disabled child who are now able that meeting, it was agreed that the members to use their oil heating system to heat their would nominate themselves on to thematic home properly. They were not able to do that subgroups. Those thematic subgroups are as previously. Those are the sorts of difference that follows: achieving affordable warmth; prevention, the schemes that we are introducing really make targeting and opportunities; synergies; and — differences to the family with the disabled risks. Members can sit on one or a number child and to the senior citizens. of groups. I will chair the next meeting of the cross-sectoral fuel poverty partnership on 7 In addition, officials from my Department are June. At that meeting, Professor Christine working with the University of Ulster and district Liddell from the University of Ulster will present councils to pilot an area-based approach to her findings, which are about informing my tackling fuel poverty. Working in partnership with Department’s area-based approach pilot. I am the University of Ulster, Departments such as pleased that that arrangement reflects the OFMDFM and DARD and local councils, we will Committee’s recommendations, and I expect target areas most affected by fuel poverty and that the thematic subgroups will examine in provide appropriate solutions to improve the detail all the recommendations in the report. energy efficiency of homes in the area. The pilot will start later this year, and the outcome will I will touch on some of the issues that we heard inform our approach to tackling fuel poverty. about from Members. Mr Durkan, who is not with us now, said that something needed to The fuel poverty strategy places significant be done on energy brokering schemes. In fact, emphasis on the partnership approach I have recently approved an energy brokering required to tackle fuel poverty and the cross- scheme, which the Housing Executive is now departmental nature of the whole area of fuel working on to implement for its tenants. So, we poverty. This is very relevant to the motion, are moving ahead on that already. which calls for: I noticed a number of comments from Mr “a strategic, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral Flanagan, who has also moved on to other approach … to reduce and prevent fuel poverty.” things. He said that the green new deal was That is what we are delivering. The report by the the key to all this. Indeed, Mr Agnew took up Social Development Committee recommends that point. The green new deal was subject the establishment of thematic action groups to a full economic appraisal. The proposal whose key role will be to identify and prioritise was fundamentally flawed. A significant slice agreed, workable and realistic solutions to fuel of the available funding for the green new poverty and not simply develop wish lists. I deal proposal went on administration costs. am a firm believer in collaborative working to Administration does not heat a home. I want provide realistic solutions to difficult issues, so I as much of the available money as possible to welcome the report in that respect. go directly to the people who are in need. The Department of Finance and Personnel raised We said in our fuel poverty strategy that we significant concerns about the proposals, would review the support structures for the including a concern about the lack of private strategy, namely the interdepartmental group funding security. It is all very well to talk about on fuel poverty and the fuel poverty advisory how much money you will bring in from other group. This review resulted in the amalgamation sources, but, if there is no security with that, of those groups to form the cross-sectoral fuel it is very dangerous ground on which to move poverty partnership. The key recommendations forward. I suggest that Members reflect on from the report are, therefore, very much in line those points when they espouse the cause of with the thematic approach that my Department the green new deal as much as they do. is developing. We are putting the £12 million into a scheme The cross-sectoral fuel poverty partnership has that is tried, tested and proven to deliver, and agreed terms of reference: that is the boiler replacement scheme. That was

174 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty the right decision to take, and, in spite of Mr participated in today’s debate, all the members Agnew’s comments, it is one that will stand the of the Committee and, indeed, the Committee test of time. Mr Agnew also said that thematic staff, who have put so much work into the action groups would “hopefully” be formed. I preparation of the report. have already said that people were asked to nominate to them at our meeting in January, so It is clear from the debate that there is that work is under way. consensus on the need to work together to effectively address fuel poverty. Political I will turn now to another couple of things that commitment and momentum is key to driving Mr Flanagan said. He said that progress has the agenda forward. That, in essence, is the key been slow, that there was inefficiency and message of the report. It has a focus on cross- delayed decision-making across Departments sectoral and cross-departmental collaboration, and that Departments were working in isolation. and almost all the Members who spoke referred From this and from the approach that we have to the need for that. The report suggests an adopted, it is clear that we have all the relevant approach that, in my opinion, could underpin the Departments working on this together. All the Department’s current approach. key stakeholders are there as well. In other words, we agree entirely with what is in the I will deal now with the comments of Members report in that regard. It is absolutely right, and who contributed to the debate. Paula Bradley that is the way that we are moving forward. talked about the most vulnerable members of society being affected by fuel poverty. I have to disagree with what he said about She said that it was important to identify delayed decision-making. The pilot scheme and cross-departmental working and stressed its the other measures that we brought forward, on importance. She also talked about the health which we are working at the moment, have not implications that put pressure on other services been delayed. This issue has been around for and said that no one Department is responsible many years. In the past year, since I have been for solving the problem. in the Department, we have moved forward very quickly on the issues. That is why we have the Michael Copeland talked about the Committee pilot for the pay-as-you-go scheme and the vast having shown courage in holding the event improvement in the energy efficiency of homes. that produced the report. He talked about all That has been achieved through not only the of us being in agreement on the effects of fuel boiler replacement scheme but the focus on poverty, particularly on the old. He talked about double glazing in Housing Executive properties. pensioners having real concerns about fuel When I arrived in the Department, we were told prices and taking drastic actions to keep warm. that that would take a decade; now, we are He said that some elements of the oil industry delivering it in the term of this Executive. We are needed to be considered for regulation, but he keen to move forward with improving the energy was not specific on that. efficiency of homes. Mark Durkan talked about the report providing a We also have our ongoing work, through our good springboard to move forward. He said that benefit uptake campaigns and so forth, on the approach to date had been fragmented but raising the amount of money that people have to acknowledged that some work had been done to spend on heating their home and on fuel. redress that. He is concerned about the impact of welfare reform on fuel poverty rates, as we all I thank Members for their contributions today, are. He said that innovative approaches needed and I reaffirm my total commitment to finding to be implemented and current ones expanded. practical solutions to fuel poverty. When I came He mentioned oil saving stamps. The Minister to the Department, I believed that the time also mentioned some of the issues that Mark had come to move away from talking about Durkan alluded to. tackling fuel poverty to implementing practical solutions that would make a real difference to Judith Cochrane highlighted the impact on the householders across Northern Ireland. I thank most vulnerable in society and said that we the Committee for its work, and I look forward to must seek to protect them. She referred to the working with it as we take this forward. key role of the advice sector, one example being the maximising of benefit uptake and energy Mr Brady: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann efficiency. She feared the role of pay-as-you-go Comhairle. I, too, thank all those who oil schemes.

175 Monday 28 May 2012 Committee Business: Fuel Poverty

Alex Easton referred to the impact on health and end in the next few weeks. He said that a full the number of deaths connected to fuel poverty. evaluation would follow in due course and the He also talked about the impact on educational indications were that it has proved successful. opportunities. He highlighted the causes of fuel poverty, including low income, energy efficiency 5.45 pm and high fuel costs. He acknowledged that The Minister also talked about how the departmental initiatives are helping to address Department is now working on an area-based fuel poverty and noted the impact on rural fuel approach to fuel poverty. He stated that he poverty in particular. is a firm believer in collaboration. He talked about key recommendations of the thematic Phil Flanagan focused on energy-efficient action groups being similar to the Department’s programmes and action to maximise benefits. approach and was happy that their approach He is concerned about scrapping the green new converges with that of the Department. He deal proposal in favour of boiler replacement. said that the proposed green new deal is Environmental and social objectives can be fundamentally flawed. Had it been a different met by increasing the efficiency of fuel-poor colour, such as blue, orange or pink, I wonder households. He said that zero-carbon public whether he might have had a different view of buildings must be part of the solution and that it, but that is merely a personal observation. On current arrangements are not working. that note, I will move on. Pam Brown said that fuel poverty is likely to get Some Members referred to the fact that fuel worse and that the report calls for a long-term poverty is about poverty in general and that strategic approach. Thematic action groups will the requirement to increase incomes is easier be time-bound to avoid them becoming talking said than done in the best of times but is even shops; the proposals represent a joined-up more difficult in the current economic climate. approach that is strategic. There is a need to do Providing employment opportunities will not be more for those in need, and the report can help easy, but Departments must work together to to achieve that. ensure that they maximise what opportunities Steven Agnew welcomed the report but would they can. like to have seen more specific recommendations. As I said when commenting on some of the He recognised, however, that the TAGs would contributions, Members spoke of the need to make those recommendations. He said that maximise benefit uptake. To that end, I am sure there is little that government can do about that the Minister will give close consideration to fossil fuel prices but there should be greater the recent Public Accounts Committee report on focus on renewables. He talked about energy the uptake of benefits by pensioners, as well as efficiency being an area in which we can do to the forthcoming report from Bryson Energy most. He noted that we have more fuel poverty- on its approach to providing benefit checks to related deaths than Finland, which is a colder maximise benefit uptake. country. He said that an area-based approach is required, such as the green new deal. The Committee’s report is not an end point on fuel poverty; in fact, it is quite the opposite. It The Minister welcomed the report and provided marks the beginning of a different approach but an update on the action that he and his one that I believe ultimately converges with the Department have taken. He talked about fuel Department’s. A Fuel Poverty Coalition event is poverty being one of the top priorities and a real currently taking place in the Long Gallery. Events problem here in the North. He talked about the focusing on solutions and collaborative ways fuel poverty strategy being published in 2011 forward can contribute to positively impacts and is committed to that strategy. He referred on fuel poverty. The Committee does not want to new and exciting initiatives to address fuel to contribute to a talking-shop approach to poverty, such as the new boiler replacement fuel poverty. We know that we run the risk scheme, and said that the European regional of having those accusations levelled at us, development fund may provide an additional but the approach outlined in the report is source of funding to support boiler replacement. practical, pragmatic and has inbuilt flexibility. He talked about how renewable heat incentives The Committee also acknowledges that the can help with domestic fuel efficiency and said report is not the final article. The expertise that the oil pay-as-you-go pilot was coming to an to address the detail lies with stakeholders

176 Monday 28 May 2012 and departmental officials, and the report Private Members’ Business will require further discussion. The report challenges all stakeholders, including the Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign relevant Departments, to produce outcomes within a set time frame. It is necessary to talk Mr Deputy Speaker: The Business Committee further, but there must be an end point at which has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 strategic action must be taken. I commend minutes for the debate. The proposer of the the report to the House and ask Members to motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose support the motion. and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to Question put and agreed to. speak will have five minutes. Resolved: Mr D Bradley: I beg to move That this Assembly approves the report of the That this Assembly views with concern the findings Committee for Social Development on fuel poverty; of the Northern Ireland-based research carried and calls on the Minister for Social Development out by the National Autistic Society into the mental to implement its recommendations to ensure a health of children with autism for the “You Need strategic, cross-departmental and cross-sectoral to Know” campaign; and calls on the Minister of approach is adopted to reduce and prevent fuel Health, Social Services and Public Safety to take poverty. on board the main findings of the research as his Department prepares to implement the Autism Act (NI) 2011.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Éirím leis an rún a mholadh. I propose the motion on behalf on the Assembly all-party group on autism. I thank the Business Committee for affording us the time to debate this important report, ‘You Need to Know’, published by the National Autistic Society.

It is important to make it absolutely clear at the outset that autism is not a mental health problem. The Autism Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, which amends the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, clarifies that autism is a social communication disability and not a mental health condition or learning disability. It is perfectly possible for someone with autism to have good mental health, just as it is for any other child. Unfortunately, far too many children go on to develop mental health problems.

The 2011 Act, when enacted, will address the acknowledged gap in knowledge and expertise across the public sector. The Act includes the requirement for an autism awareness campaign and the development of a regularly monitored and reviewed Northern Ireland Government autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) strategy that crosses all life stages and a number of Departments. As the ‘You Need to Know’ report points out, there is limited data collection in Northern Ireland regarding ASD and, therefore, there is no Northern Ireland-specific research into the prevalence of mental health problems in children with autism here. The need for the

177 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign correlation of ASD data across Departments is Some waited up to a year. Two thirds said that addressed specifically in the 2011 Act and there had been times of crisis with their child’s consequently in the planning of the Northern mental health when they needed support, but Ireland Government ASD strategy, which includes half of those parents were unable to access a subgroup to progress this particular issue. that support. In respect of these issues, the National Autistic Society’s report ‘You Need to Children with autism can be more susceptible Know’ recommends that health and social care to mental health problems because they can trusts develop specific pathways for mental be socially isolated. They can struggle to make health support for children with autism. friends and can be bullied in school. They will often find it difficult to communicate their As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, autism is feelings when they have problems or feel low. a complex disability. When mental health This can escalate into mental health problems. problems arise in children with autism, they are However, with the right support at the right more difficult to recognise, harder to evaluate time, children with autism can have the same and even harder to treat. Professionals need a emotional well-being as any other children good working knowledge of autism in order to do and live a happy and fulfilled life. When the these things, or the interventions they provide right support is not provided at the right time, can fail to help and, in some cases, can even the impact on children with autism and their be harmful. Communicating with a child with families can be devastating. autism requires flexibility, patience and skill. The ‘You Need to Know’ report, which, as I Children with autism are more likely to take said, was commissioned and written by the longer than others to trust a professional and to National Autistic Society, provides a snapshot communicate openly. Of the parents surveyed by of mental health problems that children with the NAS, over half of them felt that the CAMHS autism in Northern Ireland experience and staff had a good understanding of autism, but seeks to make their voices heard. The parents fewer than half thought that CAMHS staff knew surveyed reported that their children’s mental how to communicate with their child. On that health problems developed at a very early age. issue, the NAS report recommends that all staff Almost nine out of 10 parents stated that their working within CAMHS at tiers 2, 3 and 4 must children first experienced these issues before have basic training in autism and access to a the age of 10, and over half before the age specialist’s report. All CAMHS staff need to have of five. When parents were asked about what a broad understanding of autism to ensure that things negatively affected their children’s mental children receive appropriate support. health, the most common answers related Providing mental health support to children with to not getting the right support for the child’s autism — 58% — the lack of social support — autism is indeed a very specialist skill. Without 55% — and non-mental health professionals, that specialist knowledge, it can be difficult to including GPs, social workers and schools, treat these children. It is, therefore, vital to have not having adequate understanding of autism, autism specialists in CAMHS who can help other which was at 48%, as was a lack of appropriate professionals develop their skills. The report educational provision. Nine out of 10 parents recommends that the key autism specialists are said that the mental health problems that their identified in each CAMHS service, play a lead children faced had a negative impact on the role in developing staff training and act as a whole family. The report also revealed that there source of specialist advice. As outlined, there is can be a financial impact, with a significant limited research into the prevalence of mental portion of parents having to reduce their working health problems in children with autism in hours to deal with these issues. Northern Ireland, but, as I stated, I believe that that will be addressed through the Minister’s Unfortunately, when children with autism work on the Autism Act. and their families have to access specialist child and adolescent mental health services In conclusion, I thank all the members of the all- (CAMHS), they encounter many problems. Of the party group on autism and the other Members parents surveyed, over half — around 57% — of the House who have stayed behind on this found it difficult to get a first referral to CAMHS hot day to participate in the debate. I welcome for their child, and around 55% waited three the Minister and look forward to hearing his months for a first appointment following referral. response to the recommendations and hearing

178 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign how, through the autism strategy, many of those often at the front line and has a significant role issues will be dealt with. to play in the development of an autism strategy. The strategy must provide a clear Mr Dunne: I welcome the opportunity to speak pathway to set about addressing the needs of on the important issue of autism. Unfortunately, people with an autistic spectrum disorder as autism is an ever-increasing problem across well as the needs of parents and carers and to Northern Ireland, and it affects a growing identify what steps can be taken to promote number of children and young people in our awareness of autism. communities. I welcome the progress made to date in dealing with autism, and I pay tribute to Education has a vital role to play in helping to the National Autistic Society Northern Ireland, tackle autism. Many parents who contacted Autism Northern Ireland and other important me recently expressed specific concern about groups and organisations for their ongoing work the lack of a support infrastructure in schools. on autism. I also commend the Health Minister Parents feel that there is no adequate support for taking a hands-on, proactive approach to mechanism in place to support autistic children. improving and developing autism services in More should be done to promote specific Northern Ireland. training for teachers and classroom assistants in schools. An ethos of understanding would I feel that the public do not know enough help to reassure children who suffer from about autism. It is a lifelong development autism while helping those who have to look disability that affects the way in which a person after, teach and support children and young communicates with and relates to other people. people with autism. As autism is a spectrum disorder that can affect people in different ways, we need to have This is a cross-departmental issue. All a different system in place that can deal with Departments and key stakeholders must be fully specific, individual needs. Increasing public involved in the way forward. The voices of those awareness of autism could be a valuable tool in with autism must be heard as we try to tackle promoting the needs of those with autism and the ever-growing problem of autism among our helping to encourage understanding. young people. I support the motion.

As with many areas of healthcare, early Mr Lynch: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann intervention and detection is vital to be able to Comhairle. I support the motion and welcome support, minimise and treat autism. Despite the opportunity to speak on it. At the launch of the good work done to date, there is still room the "You Need to Know" campaign, Mark Lever, for improvement. That was re-emphasised to who is the CEO of the National Autistic Society, me recently when I was contacted by parents said: of children with autism from across my constituency who still have concerns about the “Too many children with autism are developing current system and feel that much has yet to be preventable mental health problems and find done to make adequate support available. themselves up against a broken system that doesn’t understand them or their needs. All too Given that 17,000 people are affected by often they receive inappropriate, ineffectual and autism in Northern Ireland and 200 people sometimes harmful treatments.” are diagnosed with the condition each year, That was in 2010. The ‘You Need to Know’ it is important that we continue to do all that report, which examined the issues of children we can to develop autism support. If the right with autism and mental health problems, also infrastructure and support is in place for young highlights that those young people are let down autistic children, it helps reduce long-term by the very services that are supposed to be in mental health problems. place to help them. 6.00 pm As Dominic Bradley highlighted, autism is a I welcome the work to date on the autism strategy. lifelong developmental disability. Over 70% The project board has been established, and the of children with autism also develop mental voluntary sector is involved. I welcome the health problems, such as anxiety and obsessive Minister’s assurance that he will continue to compulsive disorders. Coupled with autism, work with the voluntary sector in bringing those disorders are harder to recognise and forward the strategy. The voluntary sector is diagnose. Often those mental health problems

179 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign are dismissed as a side effect of autism. The improved provision of care services. Those ‘You Need to Know’ report states that more children deserve an equal and fair opportunity in needs to be done to stop those problems from life, along with all children in our society. occurring, and there needs to be better support when they do occur. Mr Hussey: My first knowledge of autism was gained by my membership of the Western Health Over the weekend, I met a friend who has a and Social Services Council, to which I was son with autism. Only last week, she had to appointed on my election to Omagh District take three days off work to care for him, as he Council in 2005. I had absolutely no knowledge had developed acute anxiety after spending the of autism, and it was a presentation to the first period of his life away from his parents. health council by a group of parents that pricked Talking to that parent brought it to my attention my conscience and made me want to know that when the right support is not available, a little bit more. For that reason, I sat on the the impact on children with autism and their health council’s autism group, and it is for that families can be devastating. reason that I sit on the all-party Assembly group on autism. As part of the ‘You Need to Know’ report, parents reported that their children were While preparing for today, I mentioned on developing mental health problems, as Facebook that I would speak during the debate. Dominic Bradley has already said. Some 90% I also learned that my cousin, who works in a develop problems before the age of 10, and special school, is a specialist in working with 50% develop problems before the age of children with autism. She said that she had four. When parents were asked what things read about the "You Need to Know" campaign negatively affected their child’s mental health, and that it is very worthy of support, as society their answers were revealing. Some 60% were needs to be aware of the needs of people with not getting the right support, as my friend autism and how to deal with those needs. She confirmed; almost 50% of professionals lack said that the findings are typical nationwide, understanding of autism; and 50% of parents and that, of course, change needs to come from stated that there was a lack of appropriate the top down. Government need to recognise educational provision. those needs and the financial and practical I understand that the last point is not the implications that arise with the development of responsibility of the Minister in the House, but relevant resources. That, in turn, will highlight he and the Minister of Education should have a the needs in Departments and organisations, much more joined-up approach on the issue. In which will, in turn, implement the legislation that January, John O’Dowd said that his Department can only benefit the families involved. She said had a long way to go and he gave strong that, as she has been out of teaching, she has indications of the major changes that he had in missed out on recent developments, but the mind. It is my hope that his plans of reform are topic is still close to her heart. nearing conclusion. However, the motion calls Other comments indicate that the public on the Health Minister, who is with us today, to fully supports the delivery of a service that take on board the main findings of the research recognises those with special needs and as his Department prepares to implement the takes every step it can to support parents, Autism Act. grandparents, teachers and, most importantly, The Minister cannot ignore those findings. The the children who are affected on a daily basis Health and Social Care Trust needs to develop with autism. integrated care strategies for mental health I have a report sitting on my desk in Omagh that support for children with autism. All CAMHS was given to me by a grandparent in relation staff need to have an understanding of autism to his granddaughter. I have met the child on to ensure that children receive early intervention several occasions. In fact, before I was elected and appropriate support. That demands the to the House, they were visiting the Building development of staff training, so that they can when I was with a group lobbying for support, help other professionals to develop their skills. and the wee girl shouted out, “Granda, there’s As my friend said, her son can achieve his full your friend”. She is a lovely child who is much potential by reducing the impact of mental loved by her parents, grandparents and siblings, health and emotional problems through the but she suffers from autism. Her parents and

180 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign grandparents have fought hard to ensure that only to go to the conclusions, which are pretty she receives all the support that she should straightforward. from the state. I have already mentioned the need for improved I received a comment from a friend called child and adolescent mental health services. Shane, who said: In previous questions to the Health Minister, I have sought a closer relationship between “It’s often up to parents of ASD kids to push the Department of Education and the Health education boards, schools, and youth organisations Department in that area. The necessity for to identify the needs and resource the protocols has, I feel, already been accepted management so that kids can develop fully.” by all Members, and there is no doubt that However, what if the parents themselves are actions will speak louder than words. Access ASD? Adults are often not aware that they may to specialist advice for staff working in CAMHS have the syndrome. In this, the early and initial seems to be a reasonable expectation, and stages of changing the way that we all treat and the need for an individual to play a lead role manage ASD, I feel that it is very important that in training is clearly a logical step. Teachers, schools take a special interest to ensure that particularly primary-school teachers, are facing the kids identified get every advantage. Why demands on their time, day and daily. However, should it only be the kids with the pushy parents? as autism becomes more apparent —

The motion is quite specific and calls on the Mr Deputy Speaker: Bring your remarks to a Assembly to note: close.

“with concern the findings of the Northern Ireland- Mr Hussey: — and understood, we need to based research carried out by the National Autism develop an in-depth training course that allows Society into the mental health of children with teachers and classroom assistants to create an autism for the 'You Need to Know' campaign”. ethos of understanding that will benefit children with autism. I support the motion. The conclusions in the report are damming to say the least. The report clearly states that Mr McCarthy: On behalf of the Alliance Party, child and adolescent mental health services I welcome the opportunity to support the are underfunded and overstretched. Anyone proposal and ask the Minister of Health, Social who has attempted to support a parent who Services and Public Safety to implement the is having a child assessed for autism will changes and improvements contained in the certainly support the comment that CAMHS is ‘You Need to Know’ report so as to make life overstretched. The sad reality is that, without better, in mental health terms, for children and the push from parents in many cases, the young people in Northern Ireland with autism. assessment would take a lot longer. The factual I pay tribute to everyone involved in the comment that children with autism and their National Autistic Society Northern Ireland for families and carers struggle to access the the work they have done on behalf of everyone right support, often when it is most needed, with autism, and also their parents, carers, should make us all hang our heads in shame. teachers and the many other people who The fact that thousands of children with autism have contributed to the research and findings will needlessly face a future of mental health contained in the ‘You Need to Know’ report. The problems must bring us all to a sense of shock motion advises the Minister and his Department and horror. We can change the lives of those to take on board all available information as children if we work with the National Autistic they progress to implement the Autism Act (NI) Society to provide a health and social care 2011, which came into being last year. I also service that knows how to provide the relevant thank the officers, staff, parents, carers and support. We can also improve the lives of the many more people who supported Autism NI as many parents and siblings out there who are at it steered that vital piece of legislation through their wits’ end trying to cope on their own. the Assembly over two years.

Some people do not like reading books to I must say that I am extremely proud to have the end to get the solution to a problem or to been a member of the all-party group on autism, find out whodunnit. In this instance, you do under the excellent chairmanship of colleague not have to read the entire report; you have Dominic Bradley, when despite some opposition

181 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign from within the Health Department itself, the the community. The Department will also have 2011 Act was passed and got Royal Assent one knowledge of the contents of the Bamford report year ago in May 2011. It is now our opportunity and its recommendation to support those with to see dramatic improvements made in this learning disabilities and mental health issues. field for the benefit of everyone with autism. One is tempted to ask why there is such a delay The Assembly has spoken. The Minister is in its full implementation. fully aware of what has to be done now. The Department must not delay or drag its heels. In conclusion, the ‘You Need to Know’ report Action is required. We as ordinary Assembly has to be the building block for the Department Members will not tolerate any further blockages to reach out and ensure that the mental health to the Act’s fullest implementation. problems of those children with autism —

The ‘You Need to Know’ report was launched Mr Deputy Speaker: Bring your remarks to a last June, and the research carried out clearly close, please. said that mental health problems such as Mr McCarthy: — are tackled at a very early anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder and stage, and so prevented before they even start. depression can be avoided if the proper service I support the motion. is provided to children with autism at an early stage. So, with the right support at the right Ms Brown: I welcome and support the motion. time, autistic youngsters can have the same I want to begin by praising the all-party group well-being as other children and a happy and on autism for the work that it has done to date, contented childhood. It is up to us, the Minister especially in securing the passing of the Autism and the Department to deliver. Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, which amended the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 in order It is fair to say that the Department of Education to include provision for those on the autistic also has a vital role to play in ensuring that spectrum. proper provision is made in schools. The report states that 48% of the parents surveyed Autism is characterised by impaired social felt that the lack of appropriate educational interaction and communication, coupled with opportunities had a bad effect on their child’s restricted and repetitive behaviour. Every mental health. My experience as an MLA — person with autism will have different, but not and, indeed, I listened to other MLAs say this dissimilar, symptoms. I also welcome the "You this afternoon — is that parents of children Need to Know" campaign, launched by the on the autistic spectrum are totally exhausted National Autistic Society, and its findings, as set and exasperated when they seek help or even out in the comprehensive report detailing the advice from the statutory authorities. They do experiences of users. not know who to go to to seek professional help, and when they do go, the time they have Mental illness is prevalent in Northern Ireland, to wait for help is horrendous, thus building and as the campaign highlights, it affects 71% up anger, frustration and almost a sense of of those with autism. For those with autism hopelessness. The 2011 Act, I hope, is a and their carers, that is yet another set of mechanism that will prevent such anxiety. Why circumstances to manage and deal with, should people who have enough problems have coupled with those symptoms associated with to suffer the indignity of not knowing where to autism. Autism is not a mental illness in itself, go or where to seek help? They deserve help but sufferers can also suffer from anxiety and, hopefully, they will get whatever is required disorder, depression or obsessive compulsive at the time. disorder, for example. That can, therefore, have an overall negative impact on their health and 6.15 pm limit progress in other areas of their condition. The campaign seeks to highlight the message The Department must listen, learn and act that children with autism can have good mental when it is dealing with autism. It is the least it health and the name of the campaign, "You can do to assist the children and their parents. Need to Know", obviously aims it at many The Department has complete access to the stakeholders, including government. contents of the ‘You Need to Know’ report. It can see the fantastic work carried out by a Autism has only recently secured the attention voluntary organisation and supported throughout it requires, and many sufferers live here in

182 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign

Northern Ireland. For every sufferer, there is at intentions or behaviours and the ability to least one carer, likely to be a parent or close imagine situations outside their own routine. family member. The campaign places a focus The motion deals with children, but one concern on services and inspires government to make across the board is about what is happening changes and improvements to services, such as with welfare reform. Adults with autism are the child and adolescent mental health services, being migrated from incapacity benefit to to provide support for autistic children who also employment and support allowance, and there suffer from mental illness. are concerns about how those people are going The Autism Act not only amends the Disability to cope with the interviews and tick-box exercise Discrimination Act but ensures that the carried out as part of the much-maligned Department of Health, Social Services and and discredited work capability assessment. Public Safety produces an autism strategy that The problems that people have carry on into includes how the needs of those with autism are adulthood; I think that is a point worth making. to be addressed, as well as raising awareness As has been stated, autism is not a mental of autism in society, including the workplace. health problem, but too many children go on The Bamford review, published a number of to develop such problems. Again, it has been years ago, set out a strategic direction for stated that there is no specific research into children’s mental health services to ensure that the prevalence of mental health problems they met the standards required in order to for children here in the North, but research tackle mental health issues faced by children. in England shows that seven in 10 children The review puts a focus on those with special with autism have a co-occurring mental health needs, including those with autism or a learning problem such as an anxiety disorder, an disability. The review and recommendations are obsessive compulsive disorder or depression. obviously linked to the issues pointed out by the A lot more needs to be done to stop these "You Need to Know" campaign, and tie in with the problems occurring, and better support needs to change advocated by the National Autistic Society. be available when they occur.

In a review completed in February 2011, the Children with autism are often socially isolated Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority because of the condition and are thus more reported that although progress has been made susceptible to mental health problems, but if in the area, more needs to be done. I hope that the right support is available, their emotional further improvements will be forthcoming in the well-being can be just as good as that of other delivery of services so that the full scope of the children. Autism Act might be realised and that those Mrs McKevitt: I thank the Member for giving most in need will truly benefit. way. Does he agree that the Health Minister Mr Brady: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann should consider developing ways to make child Comhairle. I, too, support the motion, and I and adolescent mental health services more would also like to thank the all-party group on accessible to children with autism, given the autism for the work that it did on bringing the recommendation of the "You Need to Know" Autism Act to fruition. I was a member of the campaign that staff in tiers 2, 3 and 4 should Health Committee in the previous mandate, be given the basic training in autism, and that and I am very aware of the hard work that that there should be key individuals within CAMHS who are autism specialists? Does he agree that Committee did in bringing the Act through. I such a change would have a hugely positive quote Paula Bradley because, at this stage, the impact on the lives of children with autism and debate is all the same and everything else has their families? been said. I just want to make some comments. Mr Deputy Speaker: The Member has an extra The three reports by the National Autistic minute. Society were mentioned. Individuals with autism have difficulty with social interaction Mr Brady: I thank the Member for her intervention and communication, including using and and absolutely agree with what she said. The understanding verbal and non-verbal language. people who deal with the children in this situation They have difficulty with social imagination, the need to be trained to a level of understanding ability to understand and predict other people’s and need to be able to cope with the complex

183 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign problems. The complexity of autism was Ms P Bradley: I welcome the opportunity to mentioned. People who are going to provide a speak on such an important topic. Today, in our support mechanism need to be trained to the society, mental health still has a number of highest degree. negative associations and a lot of stigma attached to it. In general, people are still reluctant to The ‘You Need to Know’ report outlines some seek help for mental ill health. Every one of us of the mental health problems that children has mental health, the well-being of which can here experience. Parents who were surveyed fluctuate at any time for a number of factors. For reported that children’s mental health problems many on the autistic spectrum, the ability to were developing at a very early age in some seek help and support may be additionally cases. When parents were asked what things hindered by lack of communication skills or their negatively affected their children’s mental experiences within the health service. health, examples given included not getting the right support for the child’s autism; lack of NAS research makes clear that people on the social support; non-mental-health professionals, spectrum have a high incidence of mental including GPs, social workers, schools, etc, not health issues. Estimates and research place it having enough understanding of autism; and a at about 70% of people on the spectrum having some mental health problems. As has already lack of appropriate educational provision. been stated, those can include anxiety, ADHD It is accepted that education plays a vital role and OCD. For too many people, those conditions in the mental health of children with autism. My are dismissed merely as an unfortunate colleague Seán Lynch mentioned the need for side effect of autism. Autism itself is not a the Education and Health Departments to be mental health problem, but it can, in cases, go collaborative in their approach to dealing with together with the aforementioned conditions. this particular problem. A supportive education Forty percent of people on the spectrum will setting working in partnership with mental have two or more mental health issues. When health services can be crucial in maintaining we consider the unique situation of Northern emotional well-being and preventing mental Ireland, with a higher level of mental health health problems. problems in the general population due to the legacy of the conflict and the effects of living in The Autistic Society recommends more training social deprivation, it is clear that mental health for education professionals such as teachers in ASD individuals needs to be addressed and classroom assistants. Health and social effectively, ensuring that they get the right care trusts need to develop specific pathways, support when they need it. as has been mentioned, for mental health In passing the Autism Act, the Assembly did go support for children with autism, and all staff some way to helping families and individuals working within care and mental health services living with ASD to get access to help and need to have basic training in autism — again, support. There is no doubt that defining ASD that was mentioned — and have access to as a disability has meant that awareness of the specialist support. Also, key autism specialists condition has risen somewhat. However, much should be identified in each care and mental more is still to be done. Sixty-five percent of health service and act as a source of specialist families living with ASD felt that lack of support advice. had negatively impacted on their child’s mental Commissioners in each trust area need to know health. Families also reported that this lack of how many children with autism live in each of support and understanding has impacted on the family’s mental health. those areas and know what their mental health needs are. It is essential that the trusts acquire People with ASD can be of average or above data on the mental health needs of children average IQ. This group in particular will have with autism in their area and that a work stream a heightened risk of mental health problems, is identified for the provision of mental health especially anxiety or depression. Treating people services for children with autism and their with complex needs such as ASD needs an families. Unless all that is incorporated into the understanding of what the condition is and how implementation of the Autism Act, it simply will different agencies can work. There needs to be not be effective, and the hard work done by the more understanding in our schools, especially all-party group will not be recognised. the mainstream sector, where a lot of ASD

184 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign children are educated. Lack of understanding in 6.30 pm the general population can make these mental The effects of autism, which is a lifelong health problems worse, as was the sad case in developmental disability, are well known, Suffolk, when an individual with ASD committed including the fact that it affects everyone in suicide after being bullied. Recently, we had the slightly different ways. Difficulties with social case of a child with Asperger’s syndrome being interaction, communication and empathy can attacked in a school in Carrickfergus. We must all have a fundamental impact on a child’s ensure that those stories are the exception early years and, inevitably, will affect how that and not the norm. Sadly, however, research has child sees the world as they grow up. The link shown that children with ASD are more likely to between autism and the challenges of mental be bullied, which can, in turn, affect their mental health are clear. Although my party had well- health and self-image. The work of CAMHS has known concerns about aspects of the Autism endeavoured to address mental health in all our Bill, it supported its passage at the end of vulnerable young people. It is clear that there the previous mandate. We firmly believe that needs to be more guidance on what each of the the Assembly should become an advocate different stages is and how people can access and promoter of better services for autism in those services. Northern Ireland.

It is for those reasons that I support the motion Unfortunately, for too long, statutory provision that mental health in ASD individuals needs to was not at the level that it should have been. be considered when implementing the Autism Despite the clear benefits of early support, more Act (NI) 2011. than half of children with autism in Northern Ireland still wait in excess of a year for appropriate Mrs Dobson: I welcome the opportunity to educational support. I was shocked by the speak on the important issue of autism, the publication of research from the National first time I have had the opportunity to do so Autistic Society Northern Ireland that revealed since being elected last year. I pay tribute to that almost one in three parents of autistic the National Autistic Society Northern Ireland, children felt that their child’s level of education which produced the ‘You Need to Know’ report was not adequate. In addition, the ‘You Need to as well as the more recent ‘A* for Autism’. Know’ report revealed that 48% of parents felt Having that research carried out and those that a lack of appropriate educational provision reports published adds greatly to the debate on had an impact on their child’s mental health. recognising the needs of people with autism, That is wholly unacceptable, and the Department their families and their carers. of Education must identify the shortcomings immediately and work constructively with Through relatives and constituents whose parents to deliver improved services and to families have been directly affected by autism, restore the confidence that is so badly needed I know that some people struggling with this and so clearly demonstrated in the research. disability can find the world a very puzzling and frightening place. Support at an early age can Bringing service provision for people on the make such a positive difference. When a child autism spectrum up to standard will be no receives dedicated help and guidance, so begins easy task. It will take immense foresight and the process of lifelong care and assistance, dedication, first, from Ministers and officials which helps people to communicate better and across several Departments; secondly, to relate to people around them, thus improving from the parents, who want to see the best their everyday social interaction. education from their child; and, thirdly, from teachers, who know the problems and now That is why the important issue of young people want to be involved in developing solutions. with autism or Asperger’s syndrome and mental The Department of Health, Social Services health has been an area of much debate. and Public Safety is taking the lead in the However, that debate has frequently been based development and implementation of an all- on little or no information or evidence. Now, encompassing strategy to improve services for however, it has been proven that young people those on the autism spectrum. However, the with autism are particularly vulnerable to mental Ulster Unionist Party still believes that, to tackle health problems. The ‘You Need to Know’ report issues such as the difficulties of mental health, has clearly demonstrated that. a cross-departmental approach by the Health

185 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign

Department and the Department of Education is I noticed that one of the headings was about the necessary to identify principles and standards consequences of getting the diagnosis wrong. of educational provision for children with autism. That is an important part of the debate. It can Again, it is about Departments and Ministers sometimes, sadly, be well into adulthood for breaking out of their silo mentality. many people before it is realised that they have autism, and it is important that we do what we At a time when we are debating reforms to the can to ensure that anyone who comes forward is special educational needs system, we must properly diagnosed, whether it is a young person consider issues such as we are discussing or an old person. today. Realising the challenges that people with autism face should be a priority for every As others have said, autism is not a mental Member. The Autism Bill was passed last health problem, but not getting it early enough year, but, unless there is a genuine change can have a detrimental impact on the education in approach, the problems may never be truly process and, as it says in the document, social tackled. and communication skills and behaviour as well as mental and physical well-being if the diagnosis Mr I McCrea: I welcome the opportunity to is wrong. There is an onus on society to educate speak in the debate. I commend the Members itself to understand autism and to understand whose names are on the Order Paper for how people react. I have spoken to many parents presenting the motion to the House. Sadly, whose children have autism, and they have been we are once again speaking on this issue. in difficult circumstances. For example, they could Nonetheless, it is a very important matter. be out at a restaurant and a child does something I think that the House has given it and will that they normally do and people find it offensive. continue to give it its utmost attention and the That is understandable, but, nonetheless, as a importance that it deserves. I welcome the society, we need to make ourselves better Ulster Unionist Party’s conversion to supporting equipped to understand the issues. the Autism Bill. It was a different mandate then, and we learn from our mistakes. I welcome the debate and look forward to the Minister’s response. I encourage him to Mr Hussey: I was not here. continue to work with the National Autistic Mr I McCrea: I am not blaming either of you Society and the all-party working group to two, I have to say. The previous Minister was ensure that — certainly not that supportive of the Autism Bill. Mr Deputy Speaker: Bring your remarks to a Indeed, he did not turn up to respond to some close, please. of the debates. As I said, that was in a previous mandate, and we can move on from that. We Mr I McCrea: — everything that can be done can truly say, on this occasion, that we have full is done to ensure that people who suffer from all-party support for the motion. autism are dealt with in the appropriate manner.

I want to take the opportunity to commend the Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Minister on the work that he has done on this Services and Public Safety): I am grateful since taking up office, and some colleagues to members for bringing the motion to the and I have met him on a number of occasions Assembly and for providing me with an to push the issue. He has been very willing to opportunity to outline the work that is already work with the all-party group to try to ensure being done on autism in health and social that autism gets the support and attention that care and the plans in place to develop a cross- it deserves. As others have mentioned, this is departmental autism strategy. not just a health issue, and the Health Minister cannot deal with it alone. He needs the support I understand the difficulties in identifying and of the other Ministers, and the fact that the Bill perhaps for the public in understanding the is now in place forces all Departments to work difference between the traits that relate to together to deliver something that is better for autism and those that relate to mental ill health. everyone involved in autism. It is important to recognise that people who are on the autistic spectrum may have neither I try my best to keep abreast of most of the a learning disability nor a mental illness, for documentation that comes in on autism, and, autism is neither of those things. Conversely, when reading one of the reports, ‘A* for Autism’, people with autism may also have a coexisting

186 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign learning disability or mental health problem; the You can expect the same access to assessment, one does not preclude the other. diagnosis and interventions no matter where you live. A proper and clear understanding among professionals in the health and social care and Step 2 sets out the requirement to deal with education sectors is vital in the early autism assessments through multidisciplinary identification and treatment of mental ill health. teams, including child and adolescent mental Indeed, it is vital that, in wider society, autism is health services. In fact, ‘Six Steps of Autism better understood and that, in areas such as Care’ includes a specific regional protocol that employment and further education, those with sets out the arrangements for joint working autism can make a positive contribution. The between ASD services and specialist CAMHS report by NAS, entitled ‘You Need to Know’, very when a child or a young person has a co- clearly identifies these issues and makes robust occurring mental health need or where these recommendations for health and social care and concerns exist. I fully acknowledge that we still for education. I met NAS in October last year to have some way to go until this protocol is fully hear their views and to get a better appreciation implemented across all trusts. In some trusts of their report and recommendations. At the there are resource issues and there is a need time I agreed that the recommendations had to reconfigure teams. However, all the trusts considerable merit and that we would look at how have indicated that they are committed to full best we could deliver them through the regional implementation of the protocol, and parents and ASD network and the new autism strategy. families should begin to see the benefits over the coming months. Members will be aware that significant improvements in autism services, particularly Members will know that the Autism Act, which for children, have been made over the past came into force in August 2011, requires my three years, since the ASD action plan was Department to lead on the development of published in 2009. For example, waiting times a cross-departmental strategy that sets out for assessment and diagnosis for children have how the needs of those with autism and their dropped dramatically, down from more than 12 families will be met throughout their life. The months to 13 weeks across all health and social strategy is to be published in May 2013 after care trusts. The number of front line specialist full public consultation and the appropriate ASD practitioners has doubled from around 40 approvals by the Executive. Significant work has in 2008-09 to 80 in 2011. Furthermore, we now already been completed in the development of have ASD co-ordinators in place in all five HSC the strategy. trusts and a regional co-ordinator, who together are taking forward a programme to improve ASD A project board has been established, with services in each trust. representation from all Departments, some key voluntary sector organisations including NAS, Assessment and diagnosis are only the start of the Health and Social Care Board and trusts the journey for those with autism. More significant and those affected by autism. The project board will be the identification and provision of has completed an initial consultation exercise interventions and services to meet their needs through a series of engagement events across throughout their life. Awareness and treatment Northern Ireland to take views and identify of other conditions is also a vital element, and priorities to be taken forward in the strategy. that was the reason behind the development of The engagement events were facilitated by ‘Six Steps of Autism Care’, which was published the voluntary sector with active participation in October 2011. The guiding principle of ‘Six from the relevant Departments and agencies. Steps of Autism Care’ is the promotion of a care Officials advise that this has been a very pathway where the child or young person and worthwhile exercise, providing us with a wealth their family are central to the process. The of material to inform the strategy. document provides an overview of the journey from the diagnosis of ASD through to ongoing In addition, recognising that not all of those in assessment and on to interventions and the autism community can participate in this services. It is an invaluable tool for primary care type of engagement event, my Department practitioners, health and education professionals, made available an online questionnaire and has parents, carers and specialists alike. Importantly, received a significant and positive response. it will bring consistency across Northern Ireland. Officials are now in the process of evaluating

187 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign the feedback received during pre-consultation. data might be gathered. Mr Brady referred to We anticipate that a draft document for data on co-occurring conditions. That issue consultation will be developed by the end of is being addressed through the prevalence the summer, and I will bring it to the Executive subgroup of the project board, and the review for approval before it is launched for public of the child health system will address that consultation. Although the Act does not require specific need. it, our intention is to also issue an action plan Gordon Dunne raised the issue of educational setting out in the short, medium and long term support structures in schools and training for the specific actions that Departments and teachers. The education sector is playing a key agencies will take to address disadvantages role in the development of the autism strategy being felt by those with autism. Of course, that and the action plan. My officials will work with means that the strategy and the action plan Department of Education officials to ensure that must acknowledge the most recent research a joined-up approach is advanced. and information available, and reports such as ‘You Need to Know’ are key components of that Seán Lynch questioned the support for families. evidence base. It is not only important to take The integrated care pathways that support account of research in developing the strategy; families and children to get the right help at we must continually examine best practice in the right time are key elements of the protocol how we develop and deliver our services. for co-operation between ASD services and specialist CAMHS. 6.45 pm Ross Hussey pointed out that CAMHS is The Autism Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 also overstretched and that parents with autistic requires my Department to provide data on the children feel that they are not getting full prevalence of autism in order to publish and support. The aim of the regional protocol, as update the strategy and to enable the Northern identified in ‘Six Steps of Autism Care’, is to Ireland Departments to implement it effectively. improve that situation by placing the child and A prevalence of autism subgroup has been their family at the centre of the process, where established to take that work forward, and it is ASD services and specialist CAMHS work in the process of establishing a base rate for together to assist the family through the care children with autism in the HSC trusts. Also, as pathway. Mr McCarthy raised the issue of waiting part of the planned process to modernise the lists, and, as I indicated, waiting lists have been child health system, improvements to enable reduced from one year to 13 weeks. It is our better recording and monitoring of ASD in each intention that that would also apply to CAMHS. HSC trust are under way. That will also have the capacity to identify co-occurring conditions, Pam Brown brought up the Bamford including mental health conditions. Parallel recommendations. The regional ASD action to establishing that group, I have appointed a plan and the Bamford report ‘Comprehensive voluntary sector organisation to chair a research CAMHS’ emphasised the need for ASD subcommittee of the autism project board. It specialist CAMHS to be family- and child- will be a key role of that subcommittee to bring centred. I am pleased at the progress that has the most up-to-date research and evidence to been made in that direction through the regional the attention of service providers across all protocol. There is still much to do, and we Departments and agencies, with the potential hope that that will be highlighted in the autism to report on whether such evidence is being strategy and the action plan. implemented effectively. Paula Bradley raised the issues of adults’ I trust that that gives Members a good idea of reluctance to seek help and the bullying of the range of actions we are already taking or ASD sufferers. The awareness aspect of the plan to take to improve services for those with strategy should highlight those issues and autism. A number of Members raised specific others, with the aim of reducing stigma and points. Some of those have been covered, but I encouraging people to seek help. Of course, will go through them briefly. early intervention in the development of mental illness is crucial to avoid a worsening of the Mr Bradley raised the issue of limited data on condition. Awareness among the public at large ADHD. I will suggest to the prevalence subgroup should also help with the identification and that it looks at that area to see what additional reduction of bullying.

188 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign

I once again thank the House for bringing these broad issue of mental health among children matters to our attention. I hope that you have in all-inclusive way to support those with received some assurance that improvements other mental health problems such as anxiety have been made and that we will continue to disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder. make improvements that are based on the most Isolation from social context can encourage up-to-date research and evidence available to us. such disorders among children with autism, and that is a problem that should be addressed Mr Craig: I support the motion tabled by the more collectively. all-party group on autism. It is important that we as an Assembly recognise that many children A joined-up approach with collaboration between in Northern Ireland have autism. It is defined the Health Department, health trusts, the as a lifelong development disability, and many Department of Education and schools can people across the Province are either directly provide adequate support for children with or indirectly affected by it. It is a spectrum autism and help them to live a happy and condition, which means that, while all people rewarding life where they can have the same with autism share three main areas of difficulty well-being as any other child. The role that — social interaction, social communication and education plays in the acknowledgement of social imagination — the condition will affect the needs and professional help that can be each person in a different way. administered to those on the autistic spectrum I found myself fully agreeing with many Members cannot be underestimated. The report draws around the House today. It can lead to mental attention to the fact that 48% of parents issues, but autism itself is not a mental surveyed believe that their child was adversely condition. All of us have learnt that over the affected by the lack of appropriate educational past four to five years, with the whole issue of provision. This outcome is not acceptable, and the 2011 Act. Indeed, recent research carried it is important that the issue be dealt with to out by the National Autistic Society Northern increase confidence in the education service Ireland through the “You Need to Know” provided to those with autistic needs. campaign has been well documented and sends out a clear message from parents and health School experiences and settings are important professionals on how best we as legislators can mechanisms in meeting the needs of children effect positive change for children with autism in with autism. The report says that giving Northern Ireland. teachers and schools greater training will result in an easier and more worthwhile experience for The implementation of the Autism Act is a an autistic child. means to address many of the concerning findings through this research to better Expertise should be provided to families. They implement a positive way forward for those should be well informed of the services provided with autism. Many recommendations are by CAMHS. That is important for relatives who made throughout the research document, and must come to terms with having a child who many important points can be noted from the has autism. It may be necessary to introduce a qualitative and quantitative analysis of parents, range of measures to support families who have which can be considered in the implementation a child on the autistic spectrum. Living with of the legislation. Autism, while not existing as someone with autism can require a complete an individual mental health problem, must be lifestyle change. Indeed, that is something that addressed. As many colleagues pointed out in I witnessed, as it was my childminder who got the debate, the research in England suggests me involved in the whole autism issue. I can that seven out of 10 children with autism also vouch for the fact that, when you have a child have a co-existing mental health problem. with autism, your life is turned upside down. It Child and adolescent mental health services in is not like a normal child when it grows up. In Northern Ireland have recognised the need for many respects, you can allow a young teenager a stepped approach that places the main focus to get on with his own life, but autistic children on the person, according to their specific needs. will never be in a position where they are fully Through the 2006 Bamford review, a clear independent. Parents and relatives have a huge case was presented for collaborative work to role to play in continuing to provide support for be conducted across Departments to treat the them throughout their life.

189 Monday 28 May 2012 Private Members’ Business: Autism: “You Need to Know” Campaign

In Northern Ireland, we have limited records I commend the motion to the House and hope of children with autism in each trust area who you all support it. suffer from mental health problems. Again, the report suggests that data should be collected Question put and agreed to. from across the health and social care trusts Resolved: to better facilitate adequate care. A greater awareness of the specific numbers of children That this Assembly views with concern the findings with the condition will inevitably aid the process of the Northern Ireland-based research carried of administering support services for them. On out by the National Autistic Society into the mental reflection, that is key to the overall knowledge of health of children with autism for the “You Need to Know” campaign; and calls on the Minister of where there is particular need. Health, Social Services and Public Safety to take A significant amount of effort needs to be put on board the main findings of the research as his into all those areas, but it would be wrong of Department prepares to implement the Autism Act me to stand here tonight and not commend the (NI) 2011. changes that have taken place, especially since Adjourned at 6.59 pm. the last mandate. First of all, I commend the Minister of Education. I was on the Education Committee in the previous mandate, and the one thing that appalled me was the special educational needs review that was brought to the Committee. That was universally disliked, but, in fairness to the new Minister, he has turned that on its head, brought new proposals to the Committee and is consulting the Committee to get those changes right. His approach to it all has been a welcome change.

The one thing that impressed me tonight was the contribution from our two Ulster Unionist colleagues. In the previous mandate, there was no such input from that party; in fact, if anything, it was obstructive. I commend the constructive points put forward by those two Members and look forward to them working with the all-party group to improve the situation.

The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety goes may be a party colleague, but I will say this: when it comes to autism, there is a basic understanding of the issue. As a colleague, he worked with the charity that I chose when I was mayor, and he got a better understanding of what it is to be autistic. He has been very, very helpful in his approach to it. We have had several meetings with autism charities on issues that they have raised. We are seeing the whole issue move forward with the review group that he has put in place. I believe we will see a genuine strategy put in place by the lead Department to tackle a lot of the issues. Will we get it right? Probably not, but the one thing I know about this Minister is that the effort will be put into trying to get it right. All in the Chamber owe our thanks to the Minister for at least putting the effort into making changes for the better for all those with autism.

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