October 2, 1975 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENATE 31341 ade of his life. He was named the first about U.S. foreign policy, Henry Kissinger, he have been as effective, as he was given nuclear power plants, and the 1976 presl­ credit for being at the peak of his succers. manager of the Mets. dentlal race.) It ts a considerable mistake to allow one The new Mets. The upstart M~. The TV NEws. Senator, you've been In Wash­ man to carry the entire foreign policy on his glorious Mets. The "Mazing Mets. Those ington since January, 1973. How would you shoulders, to have a one-man show. Because were years of gloom on the field, but assess your first two and a half years on when he falters or makes a mistake-and years of great success at the turnstiles. Capltol Hlll? Is it really what you expected every individual makes mistakes-then, in The Mets captured the heart of the Big it to be? :fact, the whole policy comes to a standstllL Apple, proving that "nice guys finish Blden. I've been surprised by two things. The whole negotiating posture crumbles, last"-again and again and again. First, before I came here, I assumed that the as it did recently in the Middle East. People United States Senate, as a body, had more tend to say, "Well, if Henry can't do it, then After the 1965 season, Casey Stengel 1nfiuence on what occurs in the nation than no one can. We may as well forget it." That's hung up his No. 37 uniform and stepped it in fact does. And secondly, I came here a mistake. Another example: His actions with o:ff the field as a manager. He devoted thlnking that a freshman senator could have regard to the evacuation procedure and with­ the remainder of his life to the crea­ no 1nfiuence on the Senate as a whole. I've drawal from Southeast Asia. (Vietnam) were tion of happiness among those who saw been proven wrong on both counts. The lncorre<:t; we took more of a risk than we him, and some measure of perplexity Senate has exercised less of its responsibillty needed to take. The thing that ls so danger­ among those who listened to the famed on the body politic than I believe it could ous a.bout a one-man foreign policy ls tha·t circumlocution of his speech. For ex­ and should, although things have gotten one man only has so much time; he can only somewhat better during the last eight concentrate on certain areas at a time. So ample, he provided this enlightening months. And I've found that a freshman While he focuses his attention on the Middle statement to a Senate hearing a few senator-if he's done his homework-can East, NATO falls apart. When he turns his years ago: have considerably more 1nfiuence than I attention to NATO, Southeast Asta comes I am in the baseball business and it has thought poss1ble. I've been quite lucky in unraveled. Various parts of the world a.re been run cleaner than was ever put out in 100 my committee assignments: the Foreign Re­ either neglected in fact or a.t least appear to years at the present time. lations Committee, the Budget Committee, be neglected.; these foreign policy ramifica­ and the Banking, Housing and Urban Af­ tions affect us domestically as well. Kissinger Casey, New York, baseball, and the fairs Committe. So, In a jurisdictional sense, ls less effective, or seems to be less effective Nation will miss you. I'm dealing with those areas in which I now, in part because he was never what he have both some expertise and interest­ appeared to be, and in part because his poli­ housing on one hand, fiscal and monetary cies are bearing some bitter fruit at this AN INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR JOE responsibilities on the other, and foreign point. BIDEN policy, which ls probably my "first love." I TV NEWS. Do you see Secretary Kissinger really thought that for the first term I remaining on With President Ford through Mr. CHURCH. Mr. President, on Sep­ would be expected to be seen and not heard, 1976? tember 13 and again on September 20, to be limited in what I could get done, but BmEN. I'm always wrong when I get in­ a weekly newspaper in Newark, Del., the that has not been the case. volved in political prognostlca.tlon, so I'd People Paper, published a lengthy, two­ TV NEWS. You spoke of foreign policy as like to defer on that one. The only two people part interview with our colleague from your "first love.'' How do you feel about who know the answer are Gerald Ford and Delaware, Mr. BIDEN. President Ford's actions in that area? It has Henry Kissinger. In the interview, Senator BIDEN cov­ been said that foreign policy is not his TV NEws. In terms of this "watch-dog of ers any number of topics of current in­ strong suit. the world" role, do you foresee any serious BmEN. President Ford has not taken any future involvements with regard to our terest-ranging from foreign policy to new initiatives in foreign policy; he's con­ troops in Korea.? Will it turn Into another Presidential politics. All told, it is a ducting it in the manner of the 50's and "hot-spot"? comprehensive piece of work which I 60's-basically a "cold war" philosophy, with BmEN. Sure, I ca.n see that happening. We commend to my colleagues in the Senate, a tinge of detente. In his "state of the have troops stationed in Korea. Now, if the and I, therefore, ask unanimous consent world" message about seven months ago, he U.S. is sitting there with its ba.nd.s in its that it be printed in the RECORD. discussed every part of the world and there pockets, troops and military equipment There being no objection, the inter­ was no fundamental change of policy in any there, and the ma.d-man in the north de­ view was ordered to be printed in the area. He spoke of all areas as having equal cides to reinstitute open hostllltles and in­ priority. He is still married to the concept vades across the border-we are in a war. RECORD, as follows: that we can police the whole world, that There's no time to sit and think a.bout what (From TV News-the People Paper, Sept. we must stand up and be counted whenever we should do, whether or not we want to 13-19, 19751 communism-whatever that means, in the get involved. We have 42,000 troops there, AN INTERVIEW: SENATOR JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR. international sense--ls a threat. and you know how the public side of foreign (Interview By Joe Farley-Part I) There seems to be less emphasis on identi­ policy works: the President goes on tele­ (No Delaware politician's star has risen fying U.S. self-interest than there ls on that vision, the camera. shows American tr()()ps faster or higher than that of Joseph R. whole machismo thing that has guided under siege, and right away the question Biden, Jr. At the age of 29, Biden became foreign policy for so long. John Kennedy, becomes, "Are we going to sit here and take the youngest man ever to be elected to the a man I ad.mired, may have been right for that?" Or, the more important question: U.S. Senate after defeating J. Caleb Boggs, the early 60's, but his foreign policy would "What do we need to do to protect the one of Delaware's all-time political favorites. be wrong for 1975. Remember his inaugural American boys there?" A native of Dela.ware, Biden graduated. from address-we will fight any fight, light any But what I'm getting at ts that, in this Archmere Academy and the University of torch, defend any freedom . . . that kind situation, we have very little choice-the Delaware before leaving the state to study of thing. We just can't do that anymore. policy consideration I believe we should go law at Syracuse University. After receiving Secondly, I think that Gerald Ford relies through would be vitiated by the circum­ his law degree, Biden returned to Wilming­ extremely heavily on Secretary Kissinger for stances. When we are talking about com­ ton and established himself as a trial attor­ his position with regard to foreign policy. mlttment of American lives and money, we ney. He entered politics via election to New TV NEWS. Recent press points to an ap­ should be saying, "What is our self-interest castle County Council and served there for parent loss of effectiveness on the part of here?" Not simply an altruistic reason-we're two years, fighting to establish comprehen­ Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Many here to "save" democracy, for instance. We sive long-range plans for county land devel­ observers seem to be saying that he ls not should be asking, "How does it affect America. opment. Calling himself the U.S. Senate's the diplomat we were led to believe he was and American lives?" There are at least three "token young person," Blden has received during the Nixon years. Is that a fair primary J;elf-lnterest considerations: (1) considerable national attention by press and evaluation? self-inter~t in terms of physical security; politicians alike, and has established him­ BroEN. It ls a bit unfair to Secretary Kis­ (2) economic self-interest; and, (3) moral self as an energetic worker in many areas. singer, because he was never the superman self-interest. Physical security hasn't been a He currently serves as a member of the pres­ his followers-Democrats and Republicans big problem for a while, but economic secu­ tigious Senate Foreign Relations Committee, alike-made him out to be. We tend to ma.ke rity certainly ls a current problem. Are we the Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs instant heroes out of our public figures, turn having our markets cut off, creating an ad­ Committee, and the new Senate Budget them Into clay which then becomes very verse impact on the domestic economy. When Committee and ls fast becoming one of his brittle. Then we break them. We say, "See, we have a trllllon dollar Gross National party's most-requested speakers across the they never were what they said they were,'' Product, exports of $195 bllllons, then we nation. Senator Blden, a widower, lives near but they never said they were what we said are interlocked around the world, like lt or Wilmington with h1s two sons and com­ they were. Can you follow that? Now, Kis­ not. An example of the moral self-interest mutes to Washington dally while the Senate singer has done very little to shun that would be the fact that we cannot renege on ts in session. In this first installment of a superman Image; he apparently likes it. Yet, our commlttment to Israel. The repercus­ two-part interview, Senator Biden talks :r think he was never as effective, nor could sions domestically would be tremendous if 31842 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - SENATE Octobe1· 2, 1975 we allowed Israel and two mlllion Jews to be from leakage, accidents, or sabotage wtth TV NEWS. Could you support Wallace? pushed into the sea. The same holds true regard to the maintenance of the plant. BmEN. No, I could not support George Wal­ for western Europe-we have strong cul· TV NEWS. You served on the New Castle lace as the Democratic presidential or Vice• tural, ethnic, and hereditary ties there • • • County Council before coming to the U.S. presidential candidate under any circum­ everything from mothers and fathers who Senate. What do you think about the recent stances. He's the only one I could sa.7 that still live there, to our whole inheritance of movement in the General Assembly to abol­ about for certain. a jurisprudential system. We simply can't let ish all county governments in Delaware? Is TV NEws. Do you think Ted Kennedy will it "go down the tube." But these are the county government needed? run? things, the real things, we should be con­ BmEN. I think it ts needed. And, if you BIDEN. No, I don't think Ted Kennedy will sidering. look at its record since 1966, you will find run. I hope he does not run. But let's look at TV NEWS. How do you feel about Korea? that it has been more responsive than state some of the other .. unknowns," like Jimmy BmEN. I feel that we should withdraw the government has been. For instance, the Carter from Georgia. He's an extremely at­ troops. There is one argument that has some county government has a significant budget tractive candidate. Carter's bright, articulate, merit, though I'm not entirely convinced that affects the development of the county. and has some e~rience. Yet, because of the yet. The argument is that China and Russia The state has shown little or no inclination number of would-be candidates in the field do not want the U.S. to leave Southeast Asia to deal with the very serious problems of right now, he ls suffering from "publicity because it will create a vacuum. China land use and development, and I think there anemia." He can't get the concentrated ex­ doesn't want Russia to move in, and Russia ls a need for a county agency to determine posure in the press that he needs to be taken doesn't want China to move in any further. exactly what happens in that area. I am seriously as a candidate. What defines a So far, both have refused to support North aware, of course, that county government "serious candid,ate"? It ls someone the press Korea in any further military action against has received considerable bad publicity re­ takes seriously, and it becomes a self-fulfill­ South Korea. Now of course, China has an­ cently because of some indictments of both ing prophecy. It's a case of "them that's got, other powerful army and potent political present and former members. I'm afraid that gets." And the press, because there are so force in Southeast Asta: the Vietnamese. But that has given impetus to the misnomer that many candidates, have to play percentages at it isn't in the interest of China or Russia county government ls a "do-nothing" opera­ this point. So they concentrate on the famil­ to foster further confrontation there at tion which ls no longer needed. Yet, I firmly iar names, frequently from the U.S. Senate. thls time, because they don't want the U.S. believe that the only reason things aren't But what happens when the field gets nar­ pulling out. The only real reason to stay ts worse than they are, in terms of random rowed down? Did anybody not know who that, if we left, Japan would become very land development, ls because county govern­ George McGovern was after the last conven­ skittish. Right now, Japan-like West Ger­ ment has acted responsibly. It has generated tion. One problem wasn't George's recogni­ many-has been content to reap the eco­ a great deal of citizen participation, and by tion rate, that's fo1· sure-maybe that was his nomic benefits of not having to maintain a and large the caliber of people who have problem. So, when the press starts to really standing army or of becoming a nuclear served on the council has been good. I think concentrate on just a couple of these guys, power. And I would rather pay the economic it would be a big mistake to abolish tt. they could become serious contenders. Look price to keep those two powers disarmed, in TV NEWS. Back on the national scene­ at Milton Shapp-this guy came down here effect, than to create a situation where they what man do you feel could beat President and settled a nationwide truckers' strike would have to rearm and become nuclear Ford in '76? while we all sat here with our thumbs in our powers in their own sel!-interest. So the only BmEN. I think any of them could beat ea.rs. Talk about reorganization plans for the justification I see for remaining in South President Ford. nationwide railroad system-the only guy Korea is Japan. TV NEWS. Do you really believe that? who has come up with a. comprehensive plan We're not there to save the South Koreans, BmEN. First of all, making predictions is Milton Sha.pp. Jimmy Carter pioneered or to fight to keep the dominoes from fall­ about what wlll happen 18 months from the zero-budget concept in Georgia. If the ing, or to be the last bastion of liberty on now is exceedingly d111lcult. But, let's face American people could only hear what these the Asian mainland. It ts simply not in our it-the President doesn't have a whole lot guys have been doing, all of a sudden they self interest for Japan to become a major going for him. would be taken seriously. military and nuclear power in Asia. The economy ts not in particularly good Let me cite one last example of the power TV NEWs. What are your feelings about shape, even though he keeps telling us it has of media exposure. Who would have said Portugal and its current state of flux? "bottomed-out." Housing starts are down Congressman Gerald Ford might be consid­ BmEN. Portugal fs important to us 1n drastically, unemployment ts at about 10%, ered even as an aide to a President. Think several ways. It is a cog in the NATO alliance, tnftation fs on its way back up. Secondly, I about it a minute. Would anybody have and if the government goes communist there don't think the American public ls satisfied ta.ken him seriously as a candidate? If some­ are indications it would be a fairly radical with our lack of a foreign policy. They stm one bad said-assuming Nixon had not re­ brand of communism. That, of course, would realize that foreign policy is the most im· signed-''Well, my candidate in '76 ls Gerald have the effect of knocking hell out of NATO; portant question-that's the thing that can Ford," they would have been laughed out of our allies would be hardpressed, as we would, blow them up. the room. I just thought I would point t hat with regard to stationing of troops, use of Even if they don't think or talk about it out. bases, not to mention access to and dissemi­ on a dally basis, tt ts kind of the unstated nation of nuclear information. But I don't standard for a President. So, if the economy [From TV News-the People Paper, Sept. 2(}- think the ball game ls over yet in Portugal, doesn't tum around, if unemployment stays 26, 1975] though I'm not sure which way things will as it is now, and tf the people continue to AN INTERVIEW: SENATOR JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR. go. The Secretary of State should be keeping lack confidence in our foreign policy, then I (Interview by Joe Farley-Part II) the Congress better informed of what is hap­ think most of the people who have an­ pening there so we can formulate a position nounced could-not would-beat him. But Delaware's junior senator is a man of with regard to which way we want to go. that depends on two factors: ( 1) the Presi­ strong opinions. In the first part of the in­ I'm not talking about mllitary intervention, dent not being able to tum things around depth interview with THE PEOPLE PAPER, but the outcome in Portugal ls more impor­ and (2) one of the candidates currently run­ Senator Biden discussed problems with our tant to our self-intereslfi than the outcome ning actually getting his campaign off the foreign policy, nuclear power plants, county in Korea. We have more things directly ground. Now based on what has happened so government, and talked about prospects for affected by it. far, I would not be surprised if Gerald Ford the '76 presidential race. In this issue, he were re-elected. But much will depend on turns his attention to political corruption, TV Nzws. Getting back to Dela.ware, how the busing controversy, st.a.te politics, and do you feel a.bout the proposed nuclear power how well the Democratic party does its busi­ his own future.) plant Delmarva Power and Light wants to ness, and I'm not particularly hopeful that TV NEWS. Senator, Alexander Butterfield build in Delaware? they will show any degree of unanimity. The :m.ade a statement on "Sixty Minutes" re­ BmEN. I co-sponsored legislation with John first several primaries wlll wash out a lot of cently that the American public would be Tunney (D.-Californta) which, in effect, said candidates, and the sooner the better. appalled if they had any idea. of the amount we would have delayed the development of Because the sooner the press and the Amer­ of co1Tuptlon at the highest levels here in the breeder reactor-which ls being pushed ican people can concentrate on just a few Washington. And recently a survey of public as the next step in reactor development­ of the candidates, the more exposure they're confidence and trust rated politicians at 1.8 until we get more informa.tion about safe­ going to get. out of a possible 10.0, with used-car sales­ guards in terms of construction and opera­ TV NEws. Many Delawa1·eans are wondering men receiving a 3.5. What about corruption tion of nuclear plants. But, I'm not prepared about your endorsement of Milton Sha.pp. at this level of government? today to take a position in opposition to con­ BmEN. I didn't formally endorse Sha.pp, BmEN. Well, first of all, I can understand struction of nuclear power plants anywhere. though I know it came across that way. I why Alexander Butterfield would say what I am prepared, however, to say that we don't said he was most qualified to be President. he did, in light of who he hung around with. have enough information to construct such a His economic policy is sound, which I feel I have not seen any of thls corruption. Ob­ facility and absolutely guarantee to the is the most important issue this time around viously, of course, that's the answer you'd population that they need have no concern in terms of the election. expect even if I had seen some. Theoretically or fear, that regulations are so tight and I would have no trouble getting out and and practically. I think the reason Ameri• construction techniques so good that we campaigning for him. But I'm not sure I'm cans have this image of politicians being "on don't have to worry about any repercussions going to pick him to be the nominee. the take" ls because of the way we've ft- Octobe'r 2, 1975 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- SENATE 31343 nanced our campaigns in this country, ac­ the firemen; he's taken on everybody. I re­ BmEN. It has come from the courts pri­ cepting contributions from lobbying and member when I ran, they said nobody can marily, from people who were-for the most speci&l-interest groups. In that sense, the accept a young Irish Catholic. Well, rm sure part-appointed during the 60's, at the American people are justified in thinking if Tom runs, they'll say nobody will accept height of the civil rights activist movements. they've been had. The problem is not "undAr two young senators-both Democrats. But I The thrust at that time was to force inte­ the table" corruption-politicians taking think the people of Delaware are pretty gration, to eliminate racial identities in the money for their personal use, buying houses sharp. Look at their voting record; they hope that then we'd all live happily ever and yachts, that kind of thing. But I think have no trouble crossing party lines. They after. It was probably a necessary first-step the system is implicitly corrupt in the sense gave Nixon the biggest majority ever, and at then, and I would probably have shared that that very few, if any, people contribute for the same time elected Joe Biden. When Re­ viewpoint, had I been around then. So what purely altruistic reasons. They give-legal­ publicans were losing nationwide in 1974, we have now is a court-administered system ly-because they hope to have policies which they overwhelmingly elected Pete duPont. that is ten or twelve years behind what I favor them continued or implemented. That TV NEws. So you would support Mayor believe is accurate, rational thinking. There is why businesses, labor, charity-type groups Maloney if he runs? are other things besides busing that we contribute. That is even why "good-govern­ BmEN. Sure I would. I'd have no trouble should be addressing to deal with these prob­ ment" groups contribute. supporting Tom Maloney at all. lems. For example, during my campaign I They all have a legislative interest. And TV NEWS. Sena,tor, as you know, busing is went on record in support of a single state­ that is why I support public financing of a very controversial issue in Del111ware right wide school district tax, and I got clobbered elections, because I'd like to see that kind now. What is your stand on busing? Why did for it. of impact lessened or eliminated. No one you vote against the anti-busing Gurney Well, if we'd done that, we wouldn't have came to me and said, "Look, if I contribute, Amendment that was defeated 47-46 in the to be talking about busing now; it wouldn't will you do thus and so?" But implicit in Senate? even be an issue. We would have undercut their giving was either that they agreed with BmEN. I oppose busing. It's an asinine the argument about equal distribution of a position I already held, or that they hoped concept, the utility of which has never been educational benefits. I was the only member I'd be sympathetic to a position they were proven to me. I took that position-along of County Council to push for public hous­ interested in in the future. That's why we with Howard Brown, a black candidate for ing in the suburbs of New Castle County. were very careful not to accept more than 2 mayor-long before the '72 election; we were Well, one of the bases of the current suit Ls or 2Yz % of our total income from any one the only Democrats on record as opposed to that they have been able to identify discrimi­ group or individual. At that amount, how busing. Many people forget that-conven­ nation in housing patterns in the county. much influence can they have over you? iently-now for their own political reasons. TV NEws. How can you, as a U.S. Senator, If they said, "If you don't do this or that, The Gurney Amendment was a political work to remedy the situation now? What are we won't support you next time," you can move which would have allowed anyone af­ you currently doing? say, "Take your 2% and go fly." In any case, fected by a civil rights decision from 1954 BmEN. I have made my views known to the system is corrupt in so far as it forces onward to re-open theii..r court case. 90% of state legislators, saying that I don't think you to prostitute your intellect: you say, those cases had nothing to do with busing. busing is a good idea. But frankly, I have "Well ... I guess I'd better support this." It would have created havoc in our court sys­ tried not to become too vocal on the subject Not because someone is going to give you tem. Five hundred law professors signed pe­ while the case is still being litigated. I'm a money, but because they represent 500,000 titions saying the amendment was unconsti­ conservative where the constitution is con­ people, or they represent Common Cause or tutional. My political opponents cast this as cerned, and I believe it would be inappro­ some other group. If you aren't beholden to "A vote against Gurney is a vote for busing." priate for me-as a U.S. Senator-to try to anyone as a source of campaign funds, it In fact, everyone admitted there was no put pressure on the courts. seems to me you can act as a more inde­ chance of it going into effect; it was one of We've got to wait until the judicial remedy pendent representative without the explicit those political "flag-waving" things to show runs its course before moving in with a or implicit restraints. The system has also the folks, nothing more. I've gotten to the legislative remedy. We don't wait and do been co1Tupted in another sense that is not point where I think our only recourse to nothing, however. I think we can do three often spoken to: frequently, the Congress eliminate busing may be a constitutional things: ( 1) Develop legislation saying that has not exercised its responsibility, has not amendment. The unsavory part about this is HEW cannot order busing-if it ever is or­ taken the initiative for governmental actions when I come out against busing, as I have dered, it certainly shouldn't be through an the way the president has. We've abdicated all along, I don't want to be mixed up with administrative agency. (2) Draw legislation much of our responsibility to the president, a George Wallace. I don't want anybody to which says simply that children may not be with the result that he has become more give me credit for sharing any point of view assigned beyond their own school district, powerful. George Wallace has. There are some people unless it can be proven that the district lines We>'ve created a monster, and we don't who oppose busing because they are racist, were deliberately drawn to exclude certain know how to bring it back under control. but the vast majority of the Amertcan areas. And (3) draw up new legislation which I've seen a lot of this kind of "passing-the­ people-the people of Delaware-oppose it more strictly defines de jure segregation, buck" corruption, a reluctance to stand up for the same reason that the architect of the which is the basis on which the children and say, "This is where I stand-regardless concept now opposes it. Professor COlema.n, are now being bused. Senator Roth and I of what it may cost in votes, contributions, an educator, first suggested the possible are working on that legislation already. etc." To a degree, though, the whole Water­ benefits of busing in a 1966 report. Now in The problem, you see, is that the courts gate thing has been healthy in putting poli­ 1975 Coleman says, "Guess what? I was have gone overboard in their interpretation ticians on notice that the "paying-off" kind wrong. Busing dosen't accomplish its goal." of what is required to remedy unlawful of corruption is just not acceptable. I think We should be concentrating on things other segregation. It is one thing to say that you you should err on the side of being overly than busing to provide for the f>.ducational cannot keep a black man from using this scrupulous in terms of how you maintain and cultural needs of the depr.fved segment bathroom, and something quite different to the public confidence. of our population. But we've lost our bear­ say that one out of every five people who The bad side of Watergate has been a gross ings since the 1954 "Brown vs. School Board" use this bathroom must be black. It used overreaction, an overestimation-in my desegregation case. To "desegregate" is dif­ to be that the pattern of use of a facility oplnion--of the corruption which exists in ferent than to "integrate." I got into trouble was one measure of segregation. government. I think the vast majority of with Democratic liberals in 1972 when I re­ Discrimination can take subtle forms, and. women and men involved in government are fused to support a quota-system for the blatant racism is the exception rather than decent, honest people who are involved be­ Democratic National Convention. I am philo­ the rule. cause they want to see things changed for sophdcally opposed to quota-systems; they For instance, a black man can be turned the better. Yet, the general public sees a insure mediocrity. The new integration plans down for a job and the employer can offer system ineffective in meeting their needs, being offered aire really just quota-systems to many excuses other than the fact that the coupled with the very real corruption re­ assure a certain number of blacks, Chicanos, applicant was black. So the pattern of use vealed by Watergate, and now read any in­ or whatever in each school. That, to me, is test became one way to estimate real segre­ effectuality-not as a prostitution of the the most racist concept you can come up gation. But it has now been turned into . system generally-but as direct political cor­ with; what it says is, "in order for your child an affirmative program to insure integration, ruption where somebody is "on the take." Wil.th curly black hair, brown eyes, and dark and that brings us right back to quota­ TV NEWS. Senator, do you see room for two skin to be able to learn anything, he needs systems. The ultimate result is a "planned "junior" senators from Delaware after the to sit next to my blond-haired, blue-eyed -society,'' which I abhor. It is the obligation '76 election? son." That's racist! Who the hell do we think of government to knock down any barriers BmEN. Sure, I do. I'd like to make room. we are, that the only way a black man or thrown up to prevent someone from being TV NEWS. Do you think Mayor (Tom) woman can learn is if they rub shoulders able to participate in any aspect of our so­ Maloney will run for the Senate? with my white child? The point is that if we ciety. BmEN. I hope so. I think Tom Maloney is look beyond the "old" left to the "New Left," But I do not buy the concept, popular in one of the strongest candidates we could have almost all the new liberal leaders and civil the 60's which said: 'we have suppressed the for any office in Delaware. He's bright, ar­ rights leaders oppose busing. black man for 300 years, and the white man ticulate, and he's got political guts. In the TV NEws. If nobody wants it, where did tt is now far ahead in the 'race' for everything city of Wilmington, he took on the unions. come from? our society offers. In order to even the score, 31344 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE October 2, 1975 we must now give the black man a "heacl ancl I hope that's why the people voted for as it has sought to keep pace with the start' or even hold the white man back to me. If you hang around Washington, it's even the •race." I don't buy that. I don't easy to start thinking you're important, and explosion of scientific and technological feel responsible for the slns of my father so lt ls a blessing in disguise that I commute knowledge, with rapid social change, and and grandfather. I feel responslble for what every day and get out of this city. I do my with the tremendous growth of govern­ the situation ls today, for the sins of my work and get involved, but I steer clear of mental responsibilities. own generation. And I'll be damned 1f I feel the social circuit. I prefer being home with In order to meet such a challenge responsible to pay for what happened 300 my kids, and that way I'm home with my wisely and effectively, Congress must years ago. constituents too. have the best possible information, up­ TV NEWS. You are still a liberal, aren't you, TV NEWS. The Biden .. charisma"-lt ls be­ to-date and objectively presented. Our Senator? coming well-known regionally, even nation­ BmEN. I think I'm a true liberal. I think ally. Can you see yourself as a presidential information and research needs are these other people are a llttle bit phony about candidate at some point in the future? Is unique. They encompass virtually every being liberals. A true llberal says you allow Delaware big enough to produce a national field of human knowledge about our so­ as much fiexib111ty in society as possible. A political figure? ciety, our world, our universe. They re­ true liberal would say that lt ls wrong to BmEN. That's very flattering, though I quire that knowledge be sifted, assembled penalize someone who has committed no think a lot of the attention I've gotten ls and presented in usable form, so that it wrong, based simply on the generallzatlon of simply because I'm so young. I have no desire can be brought to bear on specific legis­ his race's violation of the civil rlghts of an­ to run for those offices, but I'd be a damn other race. It ls true that the white man lative problems at the time that it is liar if I said that I wouldn't be interested in needed. They demand a special kind of has suppressed the black man, and continues five, ten, or twenty years !if the opportunity to suppress the black man. It ls harder to be were offered. I think it ls totally unrealistic expertise that is taught at no uni­ black than to be white. But you have to open that it should be offered. If it were, well, any­ versity-not only expertise in a special­ up avenues for blacks without closing ave­ ized field of knowledge, but knowledge of nues for whites; you don't hold society back one who runs for publlc office has a. desire to let one segment catch up. You put more to affect what happens, and there ls no place the congressional legislative process and money into the black schools for remedial you can have greater effect than as presi­ the special requirements of that process reading programs, you upgrade facilities, you dent. So you're being phony to say you're not for information. upgrade opportunities, open up housing pat­ interested in being president 1f you really The Congressional Research Service of terns. You give everybody a piece of the want to change things. But I'm certainly the Library of Congress has been and is action. not qualifl.ed at this point, I don't have the experience or background. I do want to one of the important congressional TV NEWS. You believe that is possible? become a national polltlcal figure 1n the groups helping us to meet this chal­ BmEN. I believe it ts absolutely necessary, lenge. As its Director since 1966, Lester and I wouldn't stay here if' I didn't think it sense that I want to become someone who was possible. Because if it's not possible, can affect things in the U.S. Senate. If I re­ S. Jayson has led the Congressional Re­ quite frankly, I don't hold much hope for our turn for a second term, I would not want to search Service in doing an outstanding generation. If we cannot do this, we are going be ••just another sena.tor"-I would want to job of service to Congress, especially in to end up with the races at war, because your be a .. power" 1n the U.S. Senate. Otherwise, the areas of utilizing modern informa­ children and my children are not going to why be here? tion technology and providing expended stand up for having their civil rights violated As for your second question, Delaware clearly could produce a presidential candi­ assistance to committee staffs. in order to give some other group an oppor­ Lester Jayson's administrative ability tunity to exercise their civil rights. This ls date. Look at where the candidates have the real problem with busing-you take peo­ come from recently-South Dakota, Maine, and distinguished leadership guided the ple who aren't racist, people who are good Arizona-all states with populations under development of CRS from a relatively citizens, who believe ln equal education and a million people. Because of electronic media, small organization, the former Legisla­ opportunity, and you stunt their children's in particular, the place you come from ls sig­ tive Reference Service, into a modern intellectual growth by busing them to an in­ nificantly less important than it was in the research facility with more than 600 re­ ferior schooI • • • and you're going to fill past. And because of changes in party rules, "bosses" and .. machines" have much less searchers, information specialists and them with hatred. And what about the black support staff handling more than 200,000 student from Wilmlngton's east side? You power than before; they don't control as congi·essional requests annually. His de­ send him to Alexia L duPont. bus h1m much of wha~ happens. The net effect has through Centerville every day, then send been to dissipate the impact of major states, parture will be a great loss to CRS and him back to the ghetto. How can he be en­ in terms of being a. springboard for a. presi­ to the Congress, which he has served so couraged to love his white brothers. He dential candidate. Delaware could have a ably and with great distinction during doesn't neecl a look at ..the other side," he presidential candidate if there were a man or a period of rapid change and growth. needs the cha.nee to get out of the ghetto woman qualifl.ed to run and able to get that A native of Long Island, Mr. Jayson permanently. much attention. graduated with special honors in history TV NEWs. How do you feel Delawareans are TV NEWS. Do you feel Pete DuPont can beat Governor Trlbbltt? and government from the College of the assessing your performance? City of New York in 1936. He was BmEN. That's hard to judge. I'm trying to BmEN. Pete DuPont is the most formidable do the job the way I committed t.o do it-­ candidate the Republlcans have, but I don't awarded his LL.B. by Harvard University by speaking out on what I think, whether count Sherman Trlbbltt out at all. He's a Law School in 1939. At Harvard, he was people like lt or not, t.o stand up for what resourceful guy, a good campaigner, and the recipient of two faculty scholarships, I think ls right, and to vote my conscience. he's done a pretty good job. I'd support him and was appointed a Member of the And to be responsive. I've made Uterally sev­ without reservations, but he's going to have Board of Student Advisors. eral hundred speeches ln Delaware in 2% his bands lfull, a.nd he knows lt. Pete du­ Upon his admission to the bar in New years; I try to visit every high school at least Pont--whether he ran against Tribbltt, me, or anybody-would be formidable 1n what­ York State, Mr. Jayson practiced law in once a year. There isn't a day goes by that New York City, first with the firm of I don't meet with some of my constituency. ever omce he sought. I still go out and knock on doors, asking peo­ TV NEWS. Do you see yourself running for Oseas & Pepper, and then with Marshall, ple what they are thinking about things. the Senate again in 1978? Bratter & Seligson. In 1942 he was ap­ Based on the reaction I get, it appears that BmEN. Assuming my family situation ls pointed Special Assistant to the Attorney they're generally satisfied. All I can do ls in the shape that it's continuing to be in, General of the United States to handle continue to do what I think I should be yes, I can see myself as a. candidate. At least civil trial and appellate cases for the U.S. doing and keep as much contact at home I'm going to conduct myself with that in­ Department of Justice in the Federal as possible. tention. But I'm not prepared to commit that I'll run again for this omce. courts in New York. One thing that worries me, quite frankly, He moved to Washington, D.C., in 1950 ls that down here there is a tendency to try and continued his service as a trial at­ to make me into a national figure-to make TRIBUTE TO LESTER JAYSON torney in the Supreme Court section­ me a woulcl-be presidential candidate for later known as the appellate section--0f 1980, that kind of thing. I want to make sure Mr. CANNON. Mr. President. Senators the Department's Civil Division. During the people of Delaware realize that my first may be aware of the retirement this week priority is Delaware. I feel the important his 18 years with the Department of Jus­ thing ls for me not to change from the way of a distinguished servant of the public tice he briefed and argued cases in the I was before I was elected, except to make and the legislative branch of the Fed­ various courts of appeals and in the U.S. no pretense about being a U.S. Senator. eral Government. Mr. Lester S. Jayson Supreme Court. Early in 1957 he was ap­ When it comes t.o legislation, I won't pre­ has resigned from his position as Director pointed assistant chief of the torts sec­ tend to be a 'good old boy' who doesn't know of the Congressional Research Service. tion in the Civil Division and later that what he's talking about. I do my homework, The past decade has been a period of same year he was appointed to Chief. The I hope I'm ••smarter than the average bear," extraordinary challenge for the Congress torts section is responsible for the de-