Esther Newberg Interviewer: Rosemary Keough Date of Interview: May 22, 1969 Place of Interview: Washington, D.C

Esther Newberg Oral History Interview – RFK#1, 05/22/69 Administrative Information

Creator: Esther Newberg Interviewer: Rosemary Keough Date of Interview: May 22, 1969 Place of Interview: Washington, D.C. Length: 26 pages

Biographical Note Staff assistant to Senator Robert F. Kennedy [RFK] (1968). In this interview, Newberg discusses her experience working with RFK’s campaign as part of the Boiler Room and campaign activities in various states among other issues.

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Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.

Suggested Citation Esther Newberg, recorded interview by Rosemary Keough, May 22, 1969, (page number), Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the John F. Kennedy Library. GSITT:RAL S:sRVICES ADMINISTRATICN NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND Afl>ORDS SERVICE Gil't of Personal Statement of Esther Newberg to the

JOHN F . KENNEDY LIBRA..TtY I, Esther Newberg of New York, N. Y. , do hereby give to the John F. Kennedy Library, for use and administration therein, all my rights, title and interest, except as hereinafter provided, to the tape recording and transcript o.f the interview conducted at Washington, D. C• , on May 22 , 1969, for the John F . Kennedy Library. The gift of this material is made subject to the fol lowing terms and conditions:

1. The interview is to be ope.ned immediately to general research.

2. Researchers who have acces~ to the transcript of the interview may listen to the tape; however, this is to be for background use only. Researchers may not cite, paraphrase or quote from the tape.

3. I her~by assign liter8.J7 property rights in t.his inter view to the United States Government. u. Copies of the interview transcript may be provided upon request to any researcher . S. This agreement. may be revised or amended by mutual. consent of the parties undersigned.

Ar 7~cry .JJ, l;tZ3 Date Esther Newberg – RFK #1

Table of Contents

Page Topic Addendum Subject Index 1 Initial meeting and involvement with Robert F. Kennedy’s [RFK] campaign 2 What it was like to work with RFK’s staff 3 Dealing with issues in upstate New York 7 Early indications that RFK would run for president 10 What it was like to work as part of the Boiler Room 19 Campaign activities in Michigan 25 Campaign activities in New York

(RFK Interview) Subject Index ESTHER NEWBERG

American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO) 25 Democratic National Committee (DNC) 13 Economic Development Administration 6 Economic Opportunity, Office of (OEO) 5 Health, Education and Welfare, Department of (HEW) 4 Housing and Urban Development, Department of (HUD) 4, 6, 9 Kennedy, Robert F. Senate Years, 1965 - 1968 2 - 4 Staff 1 - 4 , 8', 10 - 12

Family 7 Leadership and Administrative Style 7 Personal Characteristics 6 - 7, 9, 18 Presidential Aspirations 7 - 9 Michigan Primary Election, 1968 14, 16, 19 - 25 Migrant Workers RFK and 6 Model Cities Program 6 - 7 New York RFK and 3 - 6 Primary Election, 1968 25 - 26 ~residential Campaign, 1968 - Humphrey 22 - 23 Presidential Campaign, 1968 - RFK Advisers 7 - 8, 16 - 20, 23 Boiler Room . 10 - 11, 13 - 19, 25 - 26 Ethnic Support 18, 23 - 24 Family Support 13 - 16, 21, 23 Finances 22 Labor Support 20, 25 Presidential Campaign, 1968 - McCarthy 21, 25 United Automobile Workers (UAW) 20, 24 - 25 with

ESTHE.R NEWl3ERG

Ma.y 22, 1969 Washington, n• .o. By Rosemaxy Keough For the lloberl Kannetty O:ral Rietocy Project

of the Kenn.eey tib.rtl.cy

.KEOUGK: When did you first go to work for Robert Kenned\Y?

~: ln X>eaember or· l.967, 'but :t'·d been on the SUbcol!lrlittee .on .E~cutive Re ... org-a.rtization before thAt tor tW'Q yea.re when the Sena.tor wa.a a member ot the Su'b-conuni ttee. So I had gotten to know him then.

KEOOO.H: Wh&t kind of personal o.onte.ct did you. ha.VQ with him at that time on the Sub-col!l%11i.ttee?

NEWBERG: Ooca.sio~, tnembers of hie eta.ff wouldntt come t .o the hearings, and so I would write qu.eat ions for hint or keep him in:tormed. of wha.t had hawened durill.g the hearing, anything th&t he'd missed. It .rea.lly wasn't very pe!;Sonal contact. I'm m.ire he woul.dn''t have thoUght so. But I did.

l\:BlOUGH: So how· did you hear abov.t the job on his. staff? And wby did you want; to go to 1'10rk on bis atatt?

~t Bta.rba.t-a Coleman ha.d. been on his staff in the particular job 1 was intere-sted in. I knew she left and that the job lta.tt a.vai.la.ble, But J wanted to be asked to go to work for Robert Kennedy. I ·. l

lmOUGH: 'Vl'l'lat mw aaid in your intervi1~!'w' With the Senatflr?

NE'W.13EllG: It was a. very shorl int:er\i'iew 'bece,iu.se he: wall busy~ But he said, "Why do you think you wa.:rit to come ta work :f'or .me'l ", a.:t'te.r we tal.Ked a litt.le bit a.bout, I can't t~bex- wha.t exactly. And l said, "because thi$ is whe:re it'fs happen.1.ng/·' That's e'®.ct~ what I said. And he laughed. and he said,. 11iJ.'ba;t.• s good enough tor me. You. can start to ...rork the day after Christmas~ t• And I laughed b.etlattse the whole office wasn't going to l>e there, but I was starting that day~ We were on vacation. Whet sorl of reputation did his staff have with the r-est of the Rill1

NEWBERG: QhJ :young and bra.sh; i.-ea.llv eveqthing that Adl»D. £walinskf/ ~resented.. U'hey did the-ir hol!le'lro.tk. ~ey d.idn1 t f'it. into the ooJWentional mold of people who'd been on th-e Hill fb~ thirty ;years. Anotheu- thing was tM,t so m8.ey ot the ~f peapl.e on the Rill switcbed. lo~tie ·s; could wo.rlt tor .a variety of senatora; and they were J;"eally p2:'0tta•rdonal Hill ate.ff people. rut that wa.sn 't true with Sena.tor ltennedy'a ata.ft, .senera.lly, .especially With the professionals-. You we:te work.ins for him only.. .And I think now if you look ba.ok, ytl)U find that that rea.lly was tl'Ue bees.use l!lOst of his stat>f d.idn't have the bes.rt to move on to aeybottY" els.e.. ·

Did that staff' work well ·wit..h o~hE!l' senate office.s, o:r did they stand ape.rt?

NEW!ElaG: I thinlt they worked well. We· had no real problems with /Jacob 1!t.J Ja.vits' office. l don't !mow how the. two Sena.tors telt about ea.ch other l:'ea;l.ly, the ats.ffs were e.bl,e to get a.long well~ The Sena.tor• s reJ;>uta.tion was one of not wai tina his turn in the way tlut.t his brother, for inste.nce, did in the. Senate. AS t.a.v as wlla.t I saw of b.im in the· SU'b•colf!lllittee, he always did... He woul.d bow to the $enior membei-s; hie would ti;i.ke his turn. And so ! think othQr members ot su,b.. committees and other c~nimittees on the llil1 woul.d think his .susff worked well.

KEOUGH: What ~ctly was your position on his ata.:tf? NEWBERG: .Joe l>ola.n invented. a. title called. "stai'f a..S.sistant for economic de:wl.opme.nt ,-" Whidh meant holding Jerry .@erald 3.:J Bruno's bAlld, working on MY sra.nts that V'~ioUS faa,yors !Ul.d other officials in u;patate New York w--e·re intere~t~Cl in~ and pltt'SUi.n$ whtt was happening in tlt~ ~eno:tes fox: them; Just 'before th~ ca:mpaigl1~ i was gettir\g :tnto some· mor~ inte~e~ti~ work 'vith ~~ter on migr4tion ~~obl~ in Rew York, wr1tln$ releases f'o.r radio S'ta.tions that were running a big o.aniptlign to imp.rove migrant labo:r c.amps, and attending conferences in New York that had. anything to do with county and ville.ge and city officials, being the person in .. 3...

Washington th.at a. ~:r ooul.d eall if he ha.d any kind of a. problem.. And Jerry Bl:'t.Ulo took advantage of that,

!t was most]vr concerned w:i. th the upst.a.te a.rea.1 NEWERG: Uh huh Exelusive.l;y, aunost.

NIDmERG: Well, l think.~.. I W'Ottder what he would ~ haV& ea.id-. lf he we~ JntJJ.tiUS a. speech in tront of Syre,~u,se pe¢pl.$ t· he would have sa.id tit• a the most imporlant a.l"ea in the s:tat&, obviQ'\U~. But when a sta.te has a city like New Yo:rk City il'l it; with the: number of people and the impadt tha;t it has, o'bviou.sJ.:y Roeheat:el:' a.na. Bu.ttalo don't look as :importe.n'b in the. long run+ i · think he aa.re:a. a.nd .he was al~s Yery ,good about seeing mayors who as.me in,. A:nd he 1m.s probably as r-spo.nsive as D10st other Sena.tors are to the ~ cities in their state.- But- it was gellA!ra.1.cy e, Republican area. 1'11E:i lnaYOi's ot most the ·qities wete llepublioa.n 8J1d s~rs.l of them. were hOstil:e to him, The J!!AYOr of Niagara. Fall:s~ fbxr instance, bated bim. The Dllqc)r ot ~a.cuee was. a REtpubliemi:.. So he 4idnft have a 1-ot of friends upstate, Bu.t he was cono~rned.

KEOUGH: He wasn't popular there?

NEWBERG: ~ don't know bow pop~ or U?J;popu.la.r. With the Democratic 6:f'fiaia.ls1 they obrtously l_iked hiJn 'because it was good. to hav-e him come '1P to visit ocoaaio.ns.Uy.

KEOUGH:: Wha~ did Jerry Bruno a.nd the Sy.re;ouse -ottioe real.ly do? mrw;aERG: .His work was pollticai,. J!e triad to keep .a.11 th• Democrat.ic ottioia.J.s ~. Me

KEOUGH: Did he have s. g-0od relationship with the u)?ste.te 'Ma.YOl.'s?

NEWBERG: ! think so. He saw things r,eally i n ' 'bl~ck a.nd whi-te terms. Either a. gtzy was a. go-od. gQy or 1;1. b~d guy. And once you'd. eata.bl:tshed. yourself a.s one, it was hs.r.d: to break the inol.d, But a. lot of peQple think tba:b we.y. Jerry really tried to do his job~ very well. He. work~d long hO\lt'a .•

Were you invo1ved 1n the politi cs of tha.t area very mu.oh?

NEWBERG: No; because I really didn~t kno'W' enough a.bout it to begin with. I think towards the beginning of March I wa.s Ir.10.re involved because as a :ma.yor got to know me better and if they couldn't _4.,.

get Jerry on the phone~ they would call directly down. KEOUGH: How as Jerry involved in the whole thing of economic devel.o:om.ent? NEWBERG: Well, I think, mostly e..s a referral service. He would refer the probl.em_.. He never even trie:d to a.a.y that he rea..lly unde,rstood what ~ pa.rt.ieular ffepi;u>tment of Housing and 'lh,-ban I.levelop.meny HUD program was ol' what an HEW program. .liJepa.rtment or l!SAlth, Education, and Welfari/ He• d Juat ~efer it on to. 'US. KEOUGH: Would the Sena.te otti.ce intol"lll JnaYora of a. certain pl1ogra.m or would you wa.it to~ the mayors to investigate it on their own? Or would ]fQ'\l oa.U and tell the n:iayo.r that there was e cert~in program that might help them?

NEWBERG: .Joe Dolan $ltd l we.re woriking tha.t out just before the oa.mpe.ign~ · We sent out a .book call.ed fl:le . ~ta.lo@eot Federal,Aasista.nce ~P!a! to all the upstate ma;rora With a second book that was put out by the Vice President to make it easier for the o:f'f"icial.s to get through the til'st

ltEOWR: .Were there ~eal. progr~ or projects being planned in the office for the up-state are~?

NEWBERG s I was there too shOrt a time reaJ.J..v. And Barbara. Co1eman had attempted some projects. She had arr~ed severa.1 regional. meetings with people, bringing atfferent groups together. .And we were intending to do that too, but it n&ver got underway. lCEOUGH: Did you have problems with the upstate constituents in terms of hoW" much concent:rition the Sena.tor spent on ·New !oPk City? NEW»EltG: How mu.ch concentration the Sena.tor spent on national problems, Vietnam, a.ild J;>roble.ms. in other citj.es, and India.n a.f:f'airs, e.nd.... I d.idntt see a. lot of constituent mail. t didn' t. get that. I would get ~ th~ mail from the rrJFJ¥ors i nvolved. I think that the only time tha.t WE;! $aw vehemence wa.$ with Ma.yor l!!. :Dent ~ckey of Niagara Falls, a really objectionable human bei ng who, when the Senator announced~ said "t told you so. t•ve been t~ll:tng 7ou :for yea.rs that 1 s all he's bean interested. in,," Well, ! don 1 t think he rea.ll.y convinced a lot of p~le. And his ba.rtd. was .a.l:wa;ra out, wh~n we ha!J. e;ny'thing to announce, for Niaga.ra Falls.

KEOUGR : Could you k in.d of e.l(p:l,a.in t .he grant .anno®ceznent thing a.nd how it wor-ked and the eompetition involved here with Javits. -5-

Nl!llmE:RG ~ lleoa..use it was e. Democrati c Admini stl'ation, vre would no.rma.14' hear a.head Qf time if a pa.rtic'l.tlar agency was a.nm>Ullcing a grant for a city in New York. Theoretioa.l.l.y we would hear be£ore Ja.vits~ And wa uould hear s:l.mul.ta.neously with the congressman from the area.. We oouldn' t re~ work au.t a g,ood pr¢.gratll. And. :r can• t r~er aU the congressmen now t .bat we W'orked. well wit]\ on this. It ree.l.ly didn't matter a.s Dltloh for us to announce a pa.rtioul~r grant, Whertia.S 1t . could be very importa.nt tor thEtm. So we would attempt to c.all them to make sure that they had the intormation first and perhaps send out a :release that said Ser1$.tor Ro~J:lt Kenneey- a.nd congressma.n $Q 8.lld so ·Mnounced. But. sevt)rel congressmen resented our Jl4lD.e at al.1~ feeling we ·::.d:tan•t fleed t~ pUl>l.1clty and they did. Tbare was no .:real problem with JaVits. We just a1Wl(V's heard. ahead ot timlJ very rarely could they get a.eything out. We didn't announce 8ilnultane... ously with him, ever w KEOUGH: Announctns wuld consist of ca.1J ;ing· the newspapers?

NEWBERG: Yes. ThQ.tts what ~e wo'\114 do, We -would. oall the nawspn.pere and then we would read. the ~elease o'V'er the telepbone e.nd provide a4dittons..1. info~M. on if they' ~eded it~ KEOUGH: Were there any :progreJ'JlB being dona in coajune!tion with Ja.vits?

NEWBERCh Not in ray particular are.a~ !1m sure there· were. Except for one tbi~ that I worked a long t .itne on, as a natter of taat, and tha.t •a when the ?resident announced that he was goizl8 to close eighteen Job Corps Centers one ot which wa.e in upstate New York in Medina., New Yo-rk; a. tiny littie town itl Orleans oounty right on the upst~te border+ And Ja.v1ts a.n4 Congressman LBarber: B,, JrJ Conable and our office worked very ha.rd to tey a.n.d. see tM.t the c~ was kept opened. It was a. ca.mp that wa.s very unpopular to begin With.., L<:!ts ot· black kid.$ and Puerto Riaan kidS were eoro:l.ng. into this a.U 'Whit~ ,ReJ;t:ti.bilaNl air'ea., but it turned. out that they · 4id a. bell of e. job, conse,t+vation w,,ork in the fo:r~~ts up tller~. And the Jn4Yor ot the town, John Kermedy, came down to see 'US and e,sked. tor a. meeting With the head ot J'o'b Corps,. which we ~ra.ugect and was held in Senator JaVits • . office. Tb.$ Sena.tor couldn't Jiia.ke' it so I -want ove·r. Ahd CottgresSWU'l Cona~1e, a b;ypbcrite who bad voted against Job ColtPs and a.1.l. OEO appropriations> the three offices together t .ried to keep the oanrp or>en, but ot course, we didn't• KEOUGH: It was elosed.

What kind of ~olJlllXWlic~tion wa.s there with Governor fjielson D.J Roake,felle.t M.d his people that we~e involved in econo:mia deve.lop:ment? / -6-

NEWBERG: The most contaot l had w:l.th hinl was o\l'e:r the ttdgra.:11t WOl'ker cl.a.use p;robletn that Peter and I were working on. But ! didn't ha.Ve direct conta.ot.. We would communicate with the of'fiee and everything was :fir.lei We would get through and there would be no real problem. But t gu.ees, in -other areas there wert:i p1.'oblenl$.

KEOUGH: WoUlc1 they Give 1nf'o);'m8.t1on to JaVits be.fore they would g~ it to you c>r was it pretty equal.?

NEW.BERG 2 There was nothing that we co'Ul~' t find out through members of the l~gisle.ture or the senate.

KEOUGH: Would you like to talk s. little more a.bout the Jnigrant w;rker thing With ~eter and what you were dotns?

NEWBERG: It wa.a really pretty technical, the id.ea. being to cba11ge pa.rt of the state. constitution that provi

NEWBEBC: All right, the E.DA .LEconomie Deyelopment Adntinistra.ti.o!Y' program -was worked out with Utica. And the Model City pl"Ogra.m was, ot course, not e~ctiy what you'r~ tal.ldng a.bout.. nut just before tbS aa.nwaign that was the ke.y issue Which cities would be the new model citi-ea cllosen in New York State_. It was a gr-eat conflict. Peop1e f'rOUt Syracuse as.me down from the l!J8.YOr' a office teying to el.iott our s.upport. to make Sy:ra®Se a mod.el city. :rt wasn't; but Utica. wa.e goirig to receive a large a.mount of money from EDA.. KEOUGH: Anything else about your job in economic development that y-ou think is relevant? How a.bout personal contacts with the Senator d\lring that early period?

NEWBERG: toc>st of nzy- contact lV'as infontial. I was luoky, I suppose, because I sat rj.,ght outsid~ his office door> right next to J.Mie L.AJlg~la Mt- Nove:U.o7. And I wou.ld see him intorma.J.J.y when he would com.e out. Ne didn't real!v ba.ve a he;bit of wa.underiilg ba.ek thro\lgh the office the wa;y some other Sena.tors Might have done. Oecasiona.J.ly I would just listen to ~inl tellj.ng anecdotes to -people a.nd. a. lot of tiines his door wd.s open and you couldn' t help hearing liim because he was really loud on the ·-7-

telephone. He would tell :tunny s-tories and the kids would always be in that office when they ca.tile in, and dogs. He a.l.ways mAde ti~ to aee the relAtively unimportant ofticia.l.s tx"om upsta.te· New York. You ju.st ha.d. to give him a little warning and he was gra.oiou..s and he would. come in and listen to their problems, I remember one dA;r t~e ma.y-or•s repreaenta.tives from Syracuse c~ in to talk a.bout the M::>tel Cities program. And it was ·n1¥ first two weeks in the office a.nd I had JlO idea. mla.t was go!nS on in Syracuse or with M:>de_l Citie!s.i A.tt.4 he ffiF!l eaUed Die il'l to sit down With the people~ They presented what they wanted and that was to be included. in as a mod.el city. 'fhe seMtor said, 11 WelJ., Esther knoWs wh$..t's bappenib.g. Whs.t has ha.:ppened? What are we dOing for Syra.cUse1" _ And I jWJt 1ook~4 e.t him and t s.a.id, "t don't really know, Sena.tor, but ttll find out by th$ nen time I have to be in thiQ meeting," .And he laughed, 1'he offia:tal didn't .reeJ.ly la.ugh, Me had a. area.t senae of h'Ulnor,

KEOUGH: Do you have any plU"ticula.rlY f'unn:;r stories that you want to tell $.bout the kids or sotneone in the inner office?

NEWBERG; Ob.,. J: J

KEOtllli: Were they pretty weU behaved when they a.ame to visit?

NEWBERG: I don't think tba.t 1 s a. :r.air que·stion to ask.. ffe.W!,bteif

KEOUGH: ~j Did. you know anything about the fa.et that the Sena.tor was considering the presidency se.rious):y whert you ca.nie to work?

NEWBERG: Nothing.more tha.n a. :feeling. And th.en, of courae, I bega.n to know more by just being in the outer office_. Ha'V'ing been in WasbU'lgton a while; you can rea:l.ly begin to tell because ot· the phone eall.s a person makes, What' a happ.ening .. And his phone cal.ls wt;1r~ illtporlA.nt and Angi e would plru:!e them and I woUld :near who waa call1ngp I ~e.member the kind.I' of' people wbo were co.ll).ing into the office, so t bad some inkl.;tng, I was naturally neve~ included. in on a.nytbing. KEOUGH: Important orge.n.iza.tion peol>le or f.'ed. fiheodore qJ Sorensen, Keney ffenneth P.J O1 Donnell t:n;>e· people, NEWBERG: The poli tical people mostly. KEOUGH : When d1d you really get the feeling that this was goi.ng to be?

NEWBERG: Probably two weeks before he actually announced, I had strong feelings. But none of i t was confi rmed unti l shortly before he made the announcement. Everybody was gossipi ng a.bout it :l.n our offi ce. That's the ni ce thi ng a.bout the men in our offi ce. They probably di dn't sa.y anything a.bout i t on the outsl de, but there was a.n invi s ible gossip 1ine that ran through the offi ee.

KEOUGH: Di d you hear the di scussions that were going on between Ada.m/_Wali nsk;iJ ~d Peter s.nd the Senator and people that wanted him to run and people that didn't wa.nt him to run?

NEWBERG: Sometimes I would hear what Adam and Peter were sayi ng to the Senator i f they happened to be talki.ng i n the outer offi ce of i f the door was open. I never really heard the Senator comment on what they WOU.ld say. And Adam was the most vocal. But I never hes.rd the Bena.tor respond. He just kind of always had a serd:ous look on hi s f'ace when that subject would come Up. Hi s head would be down and hi s hands would be shoved in his pockets, you know. But I can't say tha.t I remember anything tha.t he said. KEOUGH: It wasn't a.n open con:fli ct?

NEWBERG : I di dn't see any open oonfii ct.

KEOUGH: Do you know how the indivi dual people on the staff felt about the deci s i on? You don't often hea.r how Angi e felt. Di d you know how · she felt about i t ?

NEW.BERG: No, we never talked about whether. • • • She seemed happy that day •. I think once everybody thought he was happy with the decision, they were happy. And it was exciting and anybody, I think, only probably somebody like an O~Donnell o.r Sbrensen, who had been throUgh it before knew what it was about to i nvolve; could have been unhappy. And I don't know i f they were not.

KEOUGH : The month or so previ ous to the announcement, the Sena.tor did qui te a. b i t of traveling in New York State.

NEWBERG : Ri ght.

KEOUGH: Were you i nvolved i n the preparati ons for thi s ?

NEWBERG: No. A l i ttle b i t. I really wish I could remember details. I knew that he was out that whole month almost, And I talked to Jerry all the time. The Sena.tor would be in an area and innnedi a.tely Jerry would call me on the telephone. Something would have arisen there as a r esult of the Sena.tor's visit. Somebody would have sai d, 11 Well, look Senator, we've had a gra.nt in to HUD for six weeks; what are you doing a.bout it?" And he would just happen to turn to Jerry a.nd Jercy remem bered everything. And he /Jerri/ would call me immedl ately. So in that sense, I didn • t travel and I ••. ,

KEOUGH: Did you know anything about the antagoni sm he was meeting in the New York State towns?

NEWBERG: No.

KEOUGH~ What sort of people were the organi zati on people that you eaid were visiti ng the office? Whom would you i nclude in this7

NEWBERG t No, I didn't really say orga.ni zation people; 1 said political people.

KEOUGH: Like Kennedy O'Donnell.

NEWBERG: Yes.

KEOUGH: But .not into people like Jess [Jessif Unruh. or ffiiclla.rd J.J Daley?

NEWBERG: No, but he would call him. He recei ved many calls from Unruh.

KEOUGH: So it would be mainly the old guard.

NEWBERG: Uh, huh.. Yes.

KEOUGH: Joe Dola.n at thi s time was layi ng the groundwork for the c~ign, political contacts, etc., how mu.oh of this were you aware of and were you involved at a.ll?

NEWBERG: No, I wasn't involved. But I obviously knew what. was happening because .Barbara Coleman. had been called ba.ok to do special work for the office and been given cards :from 1960 to reorganize. And when she first came up, and I can't remember the date when she first came in, I guess that's when I rea.lly knew that they were planning something serious. I knew that Joe a.nd Barbara were too political to just be doing that because it needed to be reorganized for the ~hives.

IO!;OUGH: Di d you see the pressure bearing down on the Senator i n terms of the announcement? Was thi s obvi ous'/

NEWBERG: Yes. :r think I did, Only in that he wa.s terribl,y busy and he didn't have a. minute to himself, i n that wa;y I s&w the pressure. But he had such a mask, it seeJD.S like, that you couldn't read hi s t'a.ce the way you could with so many other people, really. He was almost glassy eyed sometimes.

KEOUGH : We're about ready t o go into the campa i gn. Is there anythi ng else -10-

about the Senate that you would l ike to say?

NEWBERG : Only that, I remember in the beginning the first question you asked was why did I really take the job. And there seemed no choice that if you were offered a job to work for a Kennedy, i t was l ike reaahing the top of your profession. Tha.t' s all.

KEOWH: And everyone felt that way?

NEWBERG: Everybody that I he.d contact with.

KEOUGH: Okay. So he ma.de the announcement on March 16th, and you became part of the Bo i ler Room immed.iately a.t'ter?

NEWBERG: Yes, the next da.y.

KEOUGH: How did this happen? How were you noti fied of this?

NEWBERG: Joe Dolan called me. I can't remember if he called me Saturday night or Bunde.y morning. But he called and he said, "Be a.t Senator Edward Kennedy's of:fice the next morning. " Wendy [CirmieiJ was there and both the Lyons sisters ffia.nce and Macy .ArriJ' and several girls that I di dn't know that had worked in the 1960 Boi ler Room and [Davi§ Dave Hackett and. {_David w.J Dave Burke. And they explained what a. Boiler Room operation was and asked if we would be ready, willing, and a.ble to give that a.mm.mt of' time. I remember my first impression of Dave Hackett. I didn't think anybody could be as ha.rd a person. He was just inpenetrable. He was the one that gave the de script ion of what it was like to be in a Boiler Room. And the picture he drew was of a window in this hideous room, a thousand miles away from everything. He even went so far, sadly, to taJ.k about what it would be like when we finally got to Chica.go, seventeen miles away from anything else that was happening in this ·room set up with a fantastic communication system. But he has a certain kind of magnetism that you felt even then. Right after the meeting, Wendy decided that she couldn't do it because of time, children to come, and husband obligations, whatever. I don't know if it wa.s at that point--ma.yb~ you remember better than I do how quickly they decided to get the other people and who the recommendations were, but I know that he asked carol Paolozzi and m;ysel.f' who else on the staff' would do a good job. It was right then that they started to look at people that they really hadn't looked at before, It was a basic problem with women on that staff you rea.11.y, no • matter what you did, you weren •t ever considered professional. They were very good about it. They asked Carol and I what we thought. And Carol, being the office Jllanager, really knew. I don't know what happened at'ter tha.t.

KEOUGH: This waa Monday morning or Sunday?

NEWBERG: Sunday, still because Wendy dropped out. Joan Herman was the girl that had been in the •60 Boiler Room and couldn't do it. -ll-

I have a terrible memory so I can't remember the dates or the time or when i t wa.s P but I think it was Sunday.

KEOUGH: Loretta J:"Cubberle'ifl was there?

NEWBERG: That's right. Loretta. was there and . I tho~t she was going to be a member of the Boiler Room and not Dun's LK· Dun Giffor!/ secre.. tary.

KEOOOH: Then lbnda.y was when the call went out for the extra. people, the second list.

NEW.BERG: I think so. I don't know for eu:re. And then even later on, it was changed.

KEOUGH: It was changed aU along that whole week.

NEWBERG ~ Yes. It real.ly was .

KEOUGH: was there any- consideration about who was going to take over your Senate duties since your position was fairly important relative to the jobs of the rest of us?

NEWBERG : Yes. There really was. The subject ca.me up in the begiJllling when Joe had called me--either Saturday or whenever he asked me to be in the 'Boiler Room..... he had eal1ed me and said, "You know there is every reason for you to stay here." And then he said, "But this is the campaign, and this is where it's at. It's going to be happening here. And so we'll get somebody to do your upstate work. Don't worry about 1t." But in the beginning he said you'll handJ.e both jobs. And that happened, as you reca.ll, even when we got to 2000 L st~et some of those mayors were still calling me because they filled a lot of the other slots on the Hill, but they never filled mine, When I went ba.ok. at'ter it wa.s e.ll over to clean up, I saw this mail a.nd thought these men have been just chopped off a.t the neck and they never.... Nobody continued, which must have fed Mayor E. Dent Lackey's fuel.

KEOOOH: So you were at this point doing both things, or trying to do it in the beginni ng?

NEWBERG: Yea. I just said something that was wrong. They brought back the girl that had the job prior to me, Barbara Coleman's friend who'd had the job for a. month, Judy Carberry. She did do the job but still there was still a back up because she wasn't fu.ll time. She helped pa1"t time. And she didn't come on for e. while, so that's why the.re was an a,ccumuJ.ation.

KEOUGH: How di d you feel about being moved on to the campaign? Were you enthusiast i c about this? -12-

NEWBERG: Oh, it was exciting! ! ha.d made a. bet in :J..967, the summer of '67, with the staff director (Jerome Sonoslcy-) of the Sub-committee that the Sena.tor would run for president in 168. And. e'll'erYb~ thoUS,!!t I wa~ crazy. But I just bB.d this feeling; ~t :ms like a vision. . Laugb.te!f And I won the bet. So I was excited for all kinds of reasons. Bu to be a politica.l. science student a.nd to realize that you could challenge an incumbent Pres id.ant, and you didn • t have to do it the wa:y the book said was something exciting too.. And t .he alternative we.is so heinous. ·

KEOUGH: Did most of tlte staff feel this way that they wanted to go on to the ca.nq>aign?

NEWBERG: 1'here were ambitious people on tha.t $ta.ff. When you say White House to anybody .. ... · r•m sure a lot of the people ca.red a.bout the Sena.tor a.nd believed in what he believed in, but there was a lot of ambition involved, too. And campaigns a.re exciting to work on,

KEOUGH: Were there hard feeJ.ings involved. "1i th the people that were left?

NEWBERG: Terribly hard.,.. Terrible feelings wer-e left. You suddenly knew, as soon as the action began at 2000 L or at the Dodge House or wherever, that was where it was happening, that or the "road show'' as it was ca.lled. Either you traveled with the Senator or you were e.t 2000 L. But the plae,e where it wasn't happening was up a.t the Mill, And I f'orget tbe name, was it Terry Scanlon, the nice guy that. • • ["'OO'ERRU?.rI0!,7 Terry wa.s a v. ery pleasant, easygoing competent guy who .when the c~a:lgn was in :t\tl.l swing, really had the o:ffice undeI' control. ["":rNTERRUPTIO!f

KEOUGH: Did he keep the Sena.te opera.ting on a prett¥ even keel d.urin6 this time?

NEWBERG: Ye~. He didn't come in right away which was unfortunate. BUt '. everything happened so quickly aJxywa,y.

KEOWH: Where did he come from?

Ni'.:WBERG: I don't remember. I was a.l.ready out of the office by the time he came. trnfortun.a.tely, a.nd.:.this is kind of siok, I didn't rea.ll.y meet him. until. the :f'uneraJ. when I went up to help.... I stopped getting calls from JDB.YOrs a.s soon a.s Terry ca.me and things seemed to run more smoothly. They h.ired new receptionists and. I think,. seeing that there was a ma.le figure once again in the office, and they weren't aJ.1 running all over the dountry, it became easier for the people Who were le~.

KEOUGH: It was ;pretty Il'Il.lC.h the girls that. were left e.:rter Joe ffeJ.s:i! and Ad4m e.nd Peter left, ~d Frank /faa.nkieWicy?

NEWBERG: Right. "l'l3·

KEOUGH: So there was no hea.d.7

NEWBERG: No. There wasn't.

KEOUGH: So, why don't we get into the Boiler Room. I know that the Boiler Room was devised by Larry O'Brien and Dave Hackett in l96o. What really is it? How would you describe the Boiler Room?

NEWBERG: Well, I would describe it a.a the best thing that the Kennedys have contributed to politics besides the two men that they have contributed, a.nd that's & highly efficient information gathering system where they use a technique tha.t they real.l.y invented. And that is to send key outside people, practical politicians from other than the state involved, to a particular state. These people bring with them certain political penple. They set up a. state orga;nization and then they report back to a group of people, in this case women, who kept track of the states. Each girl would be given a certain number of states and it would be their job to keep in touch with the state organization in terms of money problems, in terms of finding out what key dates were important, in terms of who should be scheduled to speak in the states, in terms of small items like the fact that there weren't enough campaign stickers or posters or buttons, to compile, later on. lists of who the delegates were, facts about the delegates, the alternates; to provide letters when necessary for thank you; and generally to just oversee all the activity concerning the campaign in that state and to tunnel the info:rma.tion to those people that had a need to know in the campaign. And so at the end of a. particular day, the girls would sunnarize all the material that they had received from a state and put it into something that became known as "night reading" for line officers of the committee, O'Donnell and Sorensen and Senator Edward Kennedy, Da.vid Hackett, and steve Bmith a.nd anyone e1se who was relevant that day. And it changed from day to day W'bo was relevant. And then, of course, the Senator was kept informed, The Boiler Room would a.l.so be the best group that could take mock delegate counts on how we were doing. I think early in the campaign, the Kennedy Qperation was the only one that rea.lly knew all the key dates; when convent.ions were ~ping to be held, when prec~ct aonventions were going to be held. THUbert H..J Humphrey's orgBllization didn't have that information. It's ironic that the Democrati c National Commi ttee shouldn't have had that all ready for all candidates. But they have never been that organized and the dates change so freq_uently~ I think it's a great system because the men i n the states get used to calling to one gi rl. They know that they can get the information, that she';ll spend that whole day ma.king sure for instance that Senator Edward Kennedy wi ll call a key person. And that's her only responsibility, rather than trying to get Kenny O'Donnell on the phone or Ted Sorensen. And then the problemt I thj.nk, that Dave HacJcett had was to make sure that the line men really Knew tllat the Boiler Room. had to be the central source of information, and to get them -to come in and report was difficult. The one that di d i t best was rea.l.ly Ted Sorensen. Senator Edward Kennedy got used to the i dea and he di d a good job. Kenn)T O'Donnell, however, just didn't really understand the functi on of the Boiler Room, -14-

whi ch is surprising because he was around i n 196o . You r eally wouJ.d have thought that he would. But he kind of worked at odds, i t seems throughout the whole organizat i on.

KEOUGH : Was there a problem getting the men i n the states to recognize the authori ty of the Bo i ler Room girls?

NEWBERG: Well, first of all, you just hi t it when you said Boi ler Room girls . A real problem happened when they came back and saw the youth i n the Bo i ler Room, and the fact that the~ were not even girls--they were very- young gi rls, most of them anyway. fl:!tughteif As soon as we'd accomplish something for the~art i cular person i n the state, I don't think we had any problems . Joe L!_oseph F;J Crangle, for instance i n Michigan, a great guy and the Erie County chai rman in New York state, was the ma.n sent into Michigan. At first he tried to get right through to Ted Sorensen, the man who had put hi m there, and to Steve Sm:i.th. Eventually, he got used to going through me and he found that he could get money and materi al and information qui cker i f he went through us. But it took a while. You had to overcome the fact that you were a female, relatively young, and your name wasn't lmown.

KEOUGH: Why don't you gi ve us an idea of the type of' people that were sent into the states, the outsi de guys--where they came from, and their bacl',.,grounds and how they worked.

NEWBERG : Well, to just to st art with my states ~rom the top. Connecti cut's outside people i ncluded William Tucker, who was a lawyer in town who was a good .friend of John Dempsey, the Governor of Connecti cut, so that ma.de sense. Lester Hyman, who was the Democrati c state chairman in Massachusetts was sent into Connecticut. too, a neighbori ng politico, so that makes sense. Joe Crangle--Buffalo isn't that far from Detroi t--he a.nd about ·wenty of his people, all kinds of people f'rom the Erie County Democratic orga.ntzation from Bu.ff'alo, were sent into Michigan. The people in Michi gan resented the outside people. Thj s was the one state where I could really see it because I was in Michigan. They felt that Michigan does things differently than any other state and that thei r poli ticians are i ntellectuals. And you don't send i n a group of Erie County, Buffalo, Democrats , who are trwiiti onal Democrats, i nto the i ntellectual atmosphere of Michi gan. But i t worked. So we proved them wrong. The Wayne Owens kind of person, a lawyer from Salt Lake Ci ty, sent i nto Arizona and New Mexico. In that case, not somebody who really knew the area but just an i ntelligent guy, pleasant and able to deal with wide groups of' people. That was the key.

KEOOOH : ~bst of them had contact with the Kennedy organizati on before this time in some way?

NEWBERG : I would say so. Yes . A lot of old notes were called in, A lot of people surfaced that j ust wanted t o help. But most of the people had either worked i n 1 60 or knew Steve Smith in some way or -15-

Sena.tor Ed.ward Kennedy.

KEOUGH: I want to get back to the general. Boiler Room thing, for instance how you started to set up the system, finding out the dates of the delegate process a.nd the f 5.rst d.a.ys in the Dodge HouPe. What do you remember about that?

NEWBERG: ~kdhouse l A complete madhouse I The first days of the Dodge House-- David Hackett telling us that we had to he.ve a system and a plan; and look:i.ng through all kinda of material to come up with the right dates; and he1ter... akelter just calling people and trying to get information, replying on ol.d names and waiting f'or organizations to be set iw or not even organizations, just waiting for one familiar face or voice to surface so that we cou1d get this information; calling all over; secretary of state's offices and governor's offices, I remember cailing, a.nd calling friends of your tsmily, e.nd a.nybody that could help you. The last thi ng I remember is carrying type writers in the rain, down to 2000 L. A mess·!

KEOUGH: How about your introduction to Dave Hackett• s methods? This happened in the first days o~ the Dodge House? Is there any way that you could explain that?

NEWBERG: That's really impossible to explain. I find now that it' s over- and I was 1ooking through the books that we compiled.. -that it reall;y mad"0 sense. But somehow it seemed so detailed and un necessarily detailed becaUJ)e we seemed to have such a short period of time, but he really knew. He knew better than all of' us because he'd done it before. But the charts and the maps and the things that we had to do. • • • It's fuizzy back in the early days. It seems as if I've always known Dave Hackett and I've always had to make charts and do state by state summaries. But he instilled immediately a sense of plan. We 11.aughed at it a little bit, but i t was necessary.

KEOUGH: None of us had ever had any contact with Dave Hackett before the campaign. Did you'I NEWBERG: No . None of us had.

KEOOOH: What about contact with Senator Ted's staff and Senator Ted during your earlier days, people that we'd never worked with before?

IWW:SERG: We all kind of looked at ea.ch ·Other. Everybody was sniffing every body else out to find out who was going to be doing "lthat. And I thinkt on our staff there was probably some resentment toward Dun Gifford who looked like he was going to turn out to be Dave Btlckett's a.ssista.n.t. The Boiler Room was going to be i~ortant, .and it always became more important because of Dave Hackett's relationship with the Senator. I remember looking at the Lyons gi rls emd wonderi ng who they were. But it worked out very well. The books that have been written have talked about the resentment. Maybe it was true i n the road show, but I don't think in head quarters, we resented Ted Kennedy's staff. They aJ.l did a good job • .

KEOUGH : What a.bout the contacts wi th Senator Ted himself during the early days? Do yo\l remember anything about that?

NEWBERG : I remember him coming to the Dodge House once, but I don; t rea.lly remember what he said. In the very beginning of the Boiler Room--it wasn't until the Boiler Room got under way that I nemeniber him.

KEOUGH: Want to go from there, tell what you remember a.bout him.

NEWBERG: Well, I remember that he would try--he tried to use the Boiler Room system. He would come in and he would eay "I talked to governor so and so toda,y." And he would do it one day a.nd then he'd forget for four days that we existed. But towards the end, and it probably would have continued if there had been a campaign, he started to call a particular girl in i f her state was in question or if' some people were conli.ng in for a meeting. He was very good a.bout that. He rea.l.ly knew that even if' we didn't have it written down in books, we had it in our heads • .And he knew that we were beginning to get a real :f'eeJ. for the sta.tes. He didn't look down at us, as you might expect, as a group of pool secretaries for instance. I think he respected what some of us knew. Some of us didn't know anything, but those of us who did know something he respected.

KEOUGH : Why don't we go through a problem and show how the Boiler Roam would attack a. certain problem: how you would hear about it from your contact, a.nd how you would get action by one o:f the l.ine officers.

NEWBERG: I think money would be the best example. Michigan was a.n example. The Senator was due out on May 15th to Michigan. They needed money immediately. At that point, the line officers' organization knew that they ha.d to spend a certain a.mount on Michigan, but they didn't know how much. They hadn't really decided how it would be allocated. Cra.ngle, on the epot, and the man real.ly who knew what was happening wanted a lot of' money right away. So he called me. And everybody seemed busy that day. I couldn't get in to see anybody. But :first I'd go to Dun or Da.ve--Dun was usually around and Dave floating a lot of the time--.and said it was urgent, a.nd I would w.r i te i t up i n the ni ght readi ng. But thi s was more important than to wn,i t unti l the end of the day. So I just camped on Ted Sorensen's doorstep until fina.lly I could talk to him. He always listened; a really great American. Afterwards he went out immediately to Helen Keyes and said, "Write out the check. 11 I happened to be goi ng to Michigan, so I got this f'antast i c check,, which I t'U.cked into my pocketbook a.nd went out to Michigan with the money. Needless to aa.y, Mr. crS.ngie was happy. -17-

KEOUGH : You took the trip to Michigan; thi s was not unusual for the Boiler Room gi rls to go to one of the states that they were involved in?

NEWBERG: No. Dave Hackett intend.ed . that ea.ch of the girls should be able to visit one of the states. It didn't really work out that way. Not every one got to visit. And he wae very explicit when he talked to the people that we '1ere being sent out there to help. We weren't out there to be extra clerical helpp We had more knowledge and better contacts with the national headquarters in all areas, from citizens to sports people to entertainment to Sorensen, than the people wlthin the state. So the idea was that we should go in around a key time. I went in for the state convention. Unfortunately, not everyone got to go. And I thinl~ Dave Hackett was upset about that because it was a great experience, and we really learned, first hand, things that we were only hearing on the telephone before.

KEOUGH: When you tal..ked about him i nstructing the people in the states, ;rou get into the whole thing about Dave Hackett protecting the Boiler Room • ••

NEWBERG: Uh huh.

KEOUGH: ••• a.s being h i s thing?

NEWBERG : Yes •

KEOUGH: What do you have to say about his whole attitude towards it?

NEWBERG: Another great American. Probably the greatest man that.. . . I mean he had soul. There was something about him that he had a . .. . . I think it had to do with sports almost, He instilled a real team spirit and made us :feel that we were better than anybody at the campaign, that we really knew wbat was happening, that we were the absolutely essential. pa.rt of the 1mole process, that without us the whole campaign would fa.11 a.part. Re wouldn't let people wa.1.k in. He tried to make us exclusive. It's probably something psychological to be said a.bout a. room that you can't get into very easily. Peopl.e were stopped a.t the door usually by Dave because his office was outside. And if he caught so.meone that he didn't think should be in there, no matter what level, he would tell them to get out and to go through him or to call the girl out. BUt it was th. s need to make us-.. because we ware working dreadful hours ; we were under terrible pressure; we were sub ject to l.s,mbasting from people in the states if we didn't come through with something; if a mass mailing went wronS we were to bl.a.me; if' posters and campaigns buttons didn't get out, we were to blame. 'l'ha.t was one of the he,zards of the job. We were the persons right on the line. And he made us feel better than anybody else. He's a great man.

KEOUGH : The Boiler Room developed a reaJ. espri t de corps that is probably Ul'l.lnatched except by maybe the -press people that yo1.l hear about on -18-

the road show. How do you thi nk thi s ca.me a.bout, besi des what ycu've already said, the whole Boiler Room code that developed through Dave Hackett.

NEWBERG: I think a large part of it wa.s D;:i ve Hackett • A la.rge pa.rt of' it waa the fact that we were forced to be in that room because uswU.l.y We were so busy and a.l.ways on the te,lephone that we didn't have a chance to wander around. Until the end, we didn't get to travel. Dun Gifford was another one -that went a long way towards making us feel that we were more :i.mporta.nt than anybody else and necessary, With each little success that we'd have, if we were able to do something within the state, you began to feel. that you really were relevant. I suppose it was Dave Hackett and the fact that if we provided information that was right •••• I don't rea.J.l.y know how to go on with that.

KEOUGH: Bef'ore we go into, you know, anything about your states, there are lots of :f'unny stories about the Boiler Room and about De.ve Hackett, Edward Kennedy, and things that happened, is there anything that you want to put down?

NEWBERG: Oh, I don't know. At this point, it's a.ll a blur. There were f'unny stories. I think I'd almost rather keep them than to share them with the National Archives, some of them a.:n.ywrzy. And some of them were really personal and probably not pertinent to the ce.mpa.~~ i tself. But one thing I dD remember and it was something Mrs. ffehe!f Kennedy di d and it was rea.l..ly f'unny. I had a great picture over my desk of the Senator with his arms around El Cord.obez, the bull fighter. Both of them had great smiles on their faces. They almost looked alike. And Mrs. Kennedy walked in and she met the Boiler Room. Some of us knew her al.ready. And she looked at the poster and she said, "Which one's the bull. t'igb.ter, and which one's the bull. thrower?" Those are the kinds of things that, you know, they're anecdotes, but I think eventually somebody will get around to writing books like that filled with anecdotes that probab~ shouldn't even be aired--not that particular~, but some of the other thiIIg,1.

KEOUGH : Did you see the Senator at all during the campaign?

NEWBERG : Yes, I thi nk twice. Once I traveled on the press bus, whan he did the District of Columbia tour right before the primary, right at the end of the campai gn, he ca.me to Washington, and I got on the bus. That was when the motorcade unfortunately hit the dog-.. that day. It was great and exciting and i t was the only ti.me that I traveled with the Sena.tor during the campaign. And to see him ape , and ffioosevely Rosie Grier was on that trip when they sang A Rose in Spanish Harlem in a black area. of the city, and to see ·the feeling that he generated, especia.lly SJOOng minority groups and deprived people •••• The adoration when they looked at him was incredible. And you just never saw it for any other candidate and probably won 't for a long time. I wlshed then that I had been able to travel with the traveling party, just a l i ttle bi t, because you really miss somethi ng i f you don't. -19-

You a.lmoot forget What it's all about until you see the man and how he can perform. And he was greatl

KEOUGH: You said there were two times.

NEWBERG: The other time he ca.me to the headquarters. It ma.y have been that same day, but it may not ha.Ve been. I can't remember. Then he just walked through. I remember when I shook his hand, he said something like, he always used to e.sl me, "How's the upstate area, 11 in the oft'ice--all the time. 'Whenever he wou1d see me, he'd ask. And I'd say, "Great, Sena.tor. They love you in upstate New York . " And this time he came in and he asked me again. And I said, "Senator, they love you. 11 And be said, "Uh huh. They'd better, ffeugb.teiJ or I'll know who to bl.a.me." Those were the only two times.

KEOUGH: Anything e1se generall\V, that you want to add about the Boiler Room and the whole thing bero~e getting to the states? NEWBERG : No . I don't think so.

XEOUJR: Well, you pretty much shipped by Dun Gifford? What would you say his major responsibilities were?

NEWBERG: wau, he was the ma.n who was there more of'ten than David. SO he was the intermediary level between Da.vid and the Boiler Room. He kind of' kept things operating when David had to go back to run his own business, or was called to other meetings.

KEOUGH : Were they an effective team, do you think?

NEWBERG: Oh, ye&h. I think one understood the other's capabilities. Each of' them understood each other's capabilities very well. There was no personaJ.ity problem, both very easy going guys.

KEOUGH: We' re now do1m to the states. Do you want to go on now, or do you want to stop?

NEWBERG: I'd better go on because I have to see ••••

KEOUGH: Oka,y. Why don't we start with Mi chiga.n because tbat was :probably the most active state. NEWBERG : Okay.

KEO'OOH: You've already said who was .the coordinator. What sort of a delegate process wo.s it?

NEWBERG: It was a county convention, precinct convention, delegate -process, and t ate convention. There were, I forget, ninety•eight or -20 ...

ni nety-si x delegat es all together. A certain number of them were chosen i n the state conventi on at large. A certain number of the others were chosen at county conventi ons .

KEOUGH : There was a lot of di scussi on about Mi chi gan i n terms of Sorensen and O'Donnell and the fa.ct that there wns a conflict here. Did YoU know a.nythi.ng about thi s? NEWBERG: Kenny O'Donnell a.tone point •••• Well, I'll start some place else, I guess. Ted Sorensen was the one who felt that Joe Cra.ngle would be the best ma.n to go into Michigan. And I don't know whether or not Ken O'Donnell resented that or not; I never really heard that. But when Joe Cra.ngle was eent in, he was sent in to t ake over. He wa.s reporting to the Boiler Room and to Ted Sorensen. Ken O'Donnell was doing whatever he was doing on his mm.. We never even knew what he wo.G do i ng. But at one point I remember, there is a memo :l.n the Michi gan book, he just wrote a ltttle note to Dave Hackett saying he'd noti fied. Steve Smi th that Michigan couldn't take t wo people concerned with i t, so he was bowing out and letting· Ted Sorensen do it himself. KEOUGH: You don't know anything about another man bei ng sent i nto Michigan, say by O'Donnell. I've heard some people say that there were two peopl.e i n Michi gan at one time. NEWBERG: I think there were. But as I sai d, O'Donnell never let the Boi ler Room know. Joe Cra.ngl.e was too busy to worry about somebody else. But he, a couple of times, mentioned that there was somebody runni ng around reporti ng back. And O'Donnell and Sorensen i dentified the key people as being different. So i t was very i nteresti ng.

KEOUGH1 Who would you say were the key people i n Michigan? Who were we working through?

NEW.BERG: The key J!eople i n Michigan, I guess, f"or our pur:poses were Millie LMildreif Jeffrey, the national committeewoman, -who although she supported President /}obn F;/ Kennedy in l 96o, was a little bi t more cautious thi s time. She professed great love for Robert Kennedy and everything, but we never saw i t until the very end. She never really wanted to came out on the l i mb. Mayor [Jerome PJ Cava.na.gh was an ea.rlz supporter and he was vocal. The state leadershi p, the chairman ["Sander M..:f Sandy Levin, was very new, very young, and very scared of cormnitti ng h im.-:: elf anywhere. The vi ce-chairman was Patti Knox, outwardly Hu.m_phrey , .and not our :fri end, but important i n the the st ate. The Attorney General of the state, Frank Kelley, was e.n important man who eventually ca.m.e with us. Then there were several other names; Gus Scholl, uni on, all the UAW .[Uni ted Auto WorkeriJ people. We wanted to know -where ,['"We.J.ter P-,;/ Reuther stood and although he wasn't out wardly with us, Leona.rd Woodcock, the vice-pres dent of UAW, wa.s. There were lots of important peopl e out there. But the union peopl e were the most important. And we kind o:f had UAW with us. -21-

BEGIN SIDE II TAPE I

KEOlJGH: 'What was the /jf.ugene J~ McCarthy strength i n the state?

Very weak. McCarthy wasn't strong. He concentrated around Ann Arbor and the Urliver ity area. But we overpowered them rea.l.ly at the county convention~ KEOUGH: What exactly did Joe Crangl.e do when he went into the state. It was unusu~ to have a ma.n sent into a state for that long of time.

NEW.BERG: Right. Michigan, because so many votes were invo1ved and it was

such a key state and a big area and it involved I the confrontation with the union, they felt that they really needed someone to go in and set up an organization. There ·was no one i n Michigan that really w.nted to come out for us. So Joe was sent in to dig up bodies, people who would really o.atively announce for us. His other reason f'or being in was that in the nineteen congressional diotricts, he 1ra.s supposed to go in and 1denti1"y people that were for us and try to influence them to vote for us at the state convention on May 17th.

KEOUGH: Why in the nineteenth?

NEWBERG: In the nineteen dif'ferent districts. And he actu~ did that. He had a. man go out to every pa.rt of the state. In northern Michigan that's all m6unta.in-... not all mountain, but that's all forest.

KEOUGH: Did Sena.tor Robert Kennedy or Edward K~edy make personal appearances in Michigan? NEWBERG: Yes. The Senator ma.de two. He ma.de one bef'ore, when Joe was still in the state. It was kind of unsuccessful. He made it in the, I think, East Lansing area. I ca.n't remember exactly where it wa.s . But it was too harried, and it happened so quickly that a lot of people were offended. And they•re very sensitive peop1e in Michigan--real.l.y kind of nn.useating how sensitive they are. If you aren't recognized, or if the Senator doesn't lool' in your di rection, there's a major catastrophe. The second visit on May 15th was fantastic. I think it was held in Detroit in the downtown square. And huge crowds came out and the Sena.tor.... Joe set up interviews with him. It was really handled well, very impressive! And then when I went out there the weekend of the convention, Senator Edward Kennedy arrived on Saturday. They were having caucuses on Saturday afternoon ths.t he attended.. -bea.uti:f'ully scheduled. He met with all the k.ey people. And he went to breakfast with the delegates. It was very impressive. !red Sorensen was s~posed to come out that day, but he couJ.dn•t. At the last minute, Senator Edward Kennedy came in at 4 o'clock in the morni ng and managed to go through a whole day, leaving at 7 o'clock a.t night. That was the ni ght of the debate with Sena.tor McCarthy and i t was the weekend before -22-

the assassination. It was very effective.

KEOOOH: Were you at all these meetings?

NEWBERG : Yes. We had a big suite. And the idea. would be to keep Senator Kennedy moving f'.rom suite to suite without letting the other people know ;mo he was seeing at the moment and keep people goj_ng in and out of doors. Al'id then we bad a mobile unit set up where we took him Via a moving cart from caucus to caucus. And he went in with a key person frOill the caucus in question and wou1d talk to the caucus and then zoomed out on a tight time schedule. And. he also met in a great big ra.ll.y ~ti th a.U kinds of, not particularly convention people, but in one of' the downtown hotels he just had a. general rall:y. It was very effec tive.

KEOOOH: All these meetlngs were in different places, different hotels?

NEWBERG: No. All the meetings were in one hotel, but the caucuses were i n two different places. He bad to go from place to place.

KEOUGH: What fina.lly happened in terms of Michigan, the state convention?

NEWBERG: Well, it was kind of sixty, no, it was not that high. Humphrey people claimed a great Victory. They out-monied us left and right. Humphrey was there for the state conventicm. He had a huge brea.lt :fast, orchid.s for la.dies, and all kinds of posters, bands, and uni:forme. We just didn't have the money and of course, Sena.tor Kennedy himself wasn't there. What really happened wao out of the ninety-:four delegates, Humphrey probably got fifty-eight per cent. But we were running close behind that. We had all the others, whatever is left from that. And that was a.fter a. prediction that we wouldn't do anywhere near that well. But it was because of') I think, Joe C:ra.ngle' s orga.niza.t ion that we really did better than we ( -~cted .

KEOUGH: That's an interesti ng poi nt that you brought up ~bout the money. M::>st people have the vision that the Kennedy campa.igns dropped silver dollars f'rom the ceiling. What would you like to say about the money situation in the campaign and how i t worked for these non-primary states?

NEWBERG: Yes. Well that's important, I think. For non-primary states •••• I'm sure they were dropping money t vrlce as much as anybody else in Indiana-but that's conjecture. But in the non-priinary sta.tea they weren't doing it. They re1:l..ed on key organization and peopl•~ not on mney. Joe Crangle and twenty.. five men, who we:t'e paid expenses J?.t salaries, went into the nineteen congressional dlstricts to hunt up votes, t~ ,get to know people. That showed grea.t concern-•that we would send people 'into the northern rea.ohes of Michigan. It wa.a impressive to thc:ise people. But as far as money, t ime, gifts--when the delegates f i nally arrived that weekend of May 17th, they were inundated with things f'rom Humphrey. But all we could ' • .J

provide was Senator Edward Kennedy, which was good enough a.s you might :tma.gine. But Humphrey had a breakfast for the delegates that must have cost a. fortune. He had a huge band at the convention i tself. Rea.l:cy" kind of un fair, the band dressed up in Humphrey uniforms started to play the National Anthem. We objected and they 1aughed at us. But the ble.ck people in Michi gan were genera.Uy with us. So we picked up all kinds of dtlpport in tba.t area, But we were out ... monied. And that is true; you' re right When you ss:y that moat people think that we did it.

KEOUGH: You probably had your most substantial contacts with Ted Sorensen on Michigan then.

NEWBERG: Yes. I did.

KEOUGH: Do you....have anything to say about that, the way he handled Mtchigan?

NEWBERG: Well, let's ca.J.l. him the voice of 1rea.son. He always listened to both ai

KEOUGH: Anything else on Michigan particularly, that you want to put down?

NEWBERG : Nothing, except real.l;y a little bit more about Joe Crangle, a man who worked! I've neYer seen anyboey work and be as dedicated as he was. He eventually s~:ported Vice-president Humphrey. But I think. he really believed in the Senator. And to listen to him sell the Sena.tor to some of these people was a bea.utif'u.l thing to hear. And the people who came in with him from Buffa.lo, rea.lly professional politicians, not the ne1lf breed of the We.linskys and the Edelma..ns, but old politicians who were there, some of them because of Senator Kennedy, but a lot of them because of Joe Cra.ngle. I think that whatever happened in Michiga.n wa:e because of Joe.

KEOUGH : It's e.n interesting point about the new politics versus the old in terms of the convention system. There a.re those who have said that, you know, that you just can't win a. convention the new way. What would you say about that and the difference between the new intellectual guys and the old politicians and how they get things done?

NEWBERG: I think the party has to be big eno'Ugh to have room for both. Michigan i6 pro'bably a. good example Of the new and the old. We we.re told every which way, everywhere we turned that things couldn't be done a certain way. Even thotlgh Joe probably represented. the old soho.ol, he was a. man that could l isten to t he other side. And there were a lot of young guys, young delegates 11ho were on our side who would tell -24-

Cra.ngle tho.t we had to do thi ngs one way . He would 1i sten.

KEOUGH: Was Michigan a strong organi zation state? You would think with the unions that they would be a controlled state. This wasn't true'l

NEWBERG: You really would think th~t but UAW has never been a traditional union so that doesn't happen. Tha.t' s not valid here. And the te.te chairman was wea.k . Baney Levin, who'd just taken over :from Zol.ton Fereney, and he wasn't strong. He was very young. The other state o:f'ficers really didn't listen to him. They went of£ at odds with ea.ch other, unlike Connecticut, sa.y, where the state chairman is so important. We proved something in Michigan. We proved how important it iS to send in outside people. That state never wou1.d ha.ve been controlled, and we never would have been as successf'ul if we relied on the people in Michigan because they didn't want to surface except for Mayor Ce.-vanagh. They were genera.Uy a. gutless group of officials. Leonard Woodcock was a brave ma.n, the UAW vice-president. But nobody wanted to come out for Robert Kennedy. It happened in a lot of states. And a lot of people a.re sorry today that they didn't put on the line what they believed in then.

KEOUcnI: You would have thought that Mayor Cavanagh, being, you lr.now, the mayor of' Detroit, would control many delegates. Why was it that he didn't? NEWBERG: Well, politica.ll.y, the mayor has bad terr:i..ble mari tal problems • . There•s a whoJ.e background to that a.bout wby the mayor doesn't control very many people. He's lost a lot of' respect because of his extra-curricular activities. He's having a tough battle for re-eJ.ection; he will, Af'ter the Detroit riots, he lost a. lot of his credibility.. -we could really leave it at that--with the black conmuni ty, espeeial.ly. This was supposed to be the exen:rp1a.ry city in the country as.far as the most federal. a.id was going into Detroit. The mayor was terribly responsive. He was president of the U.S. Conference ·of Mayors, head of the League of Cities. Maybe he was too busy running around outside Detroit and he didn't see what was happening inside.

KEOUGH : Did the black community have a large influence on the delegate situation? NEWBERG : They had what was called. the blaclt caucus, the night of the state convention, where black repre.se.ntatives, de.legates to the state convention met to help decide how many of the twenty.f'our at-large delegatea would be included in, would be black and included. in on the final count. We bad s_ome good men in the black ce.ucus. Congressman [John J .J Conyers didn't reaJJ.y come out for us the way he should have. He had no pla.ce to go. He couldn't support Vice-president Humphrey. But he never really got up there and said "I'm for Robert Kennedy, " -until the very end. And that's the over r i di ng thing that I remember from Mi chigan--a lot of cowards, generally. -25-

KEOUGH: So you weren't dealing with a large amount of union pressure i n Michigan.

NEWBERG : They were very strong. Yes. I mean there was union pressure. Gus Schells' union really exerted pressure right down the line and Reuther was strong. What we hoped for was that after the primaries, especi~ after California, Reuther--and what I heard later was that Reuther did ca.ll after California, was ready to announce, that night--then he would have called in all of his I.O.U.s and we would have rea.lly done much better in Michigan.

KEOUGH: What I meant was was there union pressure in the way that you see it in the Hteelworkers and l.fachinists and some of these other unions where they freeze thei r people.

NEWBERG: Yeah, there ·was a little bit of that with the other unions, but not with the UAW which is the biggest in the area. KEOUGH: The UAW doesn't go in for that kind of thing?

NEWBERG: Whatever Reuther would have done, a large n1,llllber of people would have come with him. There's more freedom there I think than i n some of the other places.

KEOUGH: So I think that's just about i t with Michigan; don't you think?

NEWBERG: Yeah.

KEOUGH: New York is a thing tha.t you probably don't have too much to say on. Who was running New York? What was going on there during the campaign?

I-m:w.BERG: I would 1.ike to have been able to say who was really running New York . William Walton at one time was running New York. Steve Smith waG running New York. All kinds of people were running New York. And that was the one state where, I thi nk a:f'ter CE>..lif'ornia, they were going i nto New York for a whole month to get ready for the New York primary on the 17th of June. But nothing was happenlng. New Yor !~ was just sending materials out o.nd. quietly t al king to people. That' s why the McCarthy organization was so strong there. They were going from giant area to giant area in this campaign. New York wasn 1t supposed to be hi t unti l after Cali forni a.. So as far as the Boiler Room was happening, I had least contact with New York except for maybe Arkansas.

KEOUGH : What l·rere John Burns and {John F.J Jack Engli sh doing'! NEWBERG : They were do i ng their own thing. They would try and co-ordinate whatever was go i ng on i n New York . But as I say, they never really reported :tn to me . A couple of times I talked to John Burns. But l f I ha.dn't ::novm a.bout Jac1r. Engl sh .fl"om other .. ources , from the office, I would never have 1-nown what h l n !l doing. Tha.t' s lot f · i r, though, he might ha-ve been do 1 ng o. l ot and r jt t d:'.. dn' t ,.n or e.bout it. But if they i o.n' t use the Bni ler Rooc, then I reu.lly ho.d nothing to "ay.

KEOUGH· That . ould b i t 5n Ne~: Yort ; they d dn' t go through the syste 7

lO!!OUGH: Whom do y tt think 1rould be the per on th:l.t rould ¥nou ost a.bout tTha.t wa go:.ng on i n New Yor}t?

NEWBERG : I au uor.e John Burno would l:now and Ja.ek Engl:tgh and Steve Smith !l?ld ffe.rn.ld J.J Jerry Druno. KEOUGH : l·f; ul.d J rey- have 'been i nvolved i n this even 'lt.1.th the advance crew'?

NEWBERG : Yeah. Whenever they could. get him, I BU.J?pose. I suppose Burno rould be the one. If I had to name just one -p :rson, I'd say Bu.ma .

KEOUGH: Well. I guess we can go :I nto Texas Wh .l ch is real.fy Wl intricate thf ng ••••

END TAPE I SIDE II