Interview with John around, which was about 1987. By The Stewartville will lead you effec- then the land had changed owners tively down to the water table Ackerrman July, 2003 three or four times and the current because that's about as low as you owner had invited me out to this will go. You'll usually find a stream Aaron: John, please tell us how you property, not only to visit this or a river at that level and so, in got into cave in Minnesota? once again because he was natural- most of my seventeen that ly curious, but to also determine if I've discovered on my property, you John: O.K. Well that's a good ques- any other caves could be found in will find a river or stream passage tion. I guess the reason why I got one of forty-five or fifty on down below them. into cave digging in Minnesota is his property. So I ended up buying because there are very few caves roughly half the farm from him back Aaron: What age are these rocks? that have been discovered in this then and expanded Spring Valley area. So really, cave digging Caverns from a half a mile to over John: 400 - 600 million years old. became a necessity to find caves. five and a half miles. Ordovician aged.

Aaron: How many caves did Aaron: Was that all from one Aaron: Are there formations in these Minnesota have naturally before entrance or did you dig open other caves? people started digging? entrances? John: Oh yeah, we have one forma- John: Well, you know, even though John: I found over five miles by tion that was found recently that's we may have thousands and thou- sticking to one project within the considered the largest column in this sands of sinkholes, we have very cave for almost a year. We had all state. It's so big that two or three few caves that are known, docu- the right "cave signs" and up here people could not get their arms mented, and surveyed. I would when you want to find a cave it's not around it and it's probably twelve guess that realistically you could like ridgewalking and finding a deep feet tall. It's an amazing column. count them on one hand. So the pit and just rappelling down. This is We call it the Leaning Tower. But caves that are suitable for visitation called "Persistence" with a capital P. yes, we have a multitude of forma- are maybe two or three. Not to say So my partner and I spent about a tions just like any other state does. that we don't have some significant year opening, enlarging a crevice caves in this state but what we do and found mostly all of it just after Aaron: You said seventeen caves lack are cavers. We have very few one breakthrough. There were other on your property? cave explorers in this state, but on small breakthroughs in the cave after the positive side we have very many that, none of which required any John: Well, we're working on our sinkholes that are waiting to be rock removal, maybe a small amount eighteenth cave now. excavated because that's where of sediment removal, but we actually you're going to find your caves. found large walking passages, large Aaron: That's great. How long are rooms. Most of the new find is 70% these caves that you've found on Aaron: Was Spring Valley Caverns walking. So it was an exciting time. your property? an open cave before you got That was in about 1990. involved with it? John: Like I said, the breakthrough Aaron: Have the caves in Minnesota at Spring Valley Caverns has John: Spring Valley Caverns was traditionally been developed in the brought us to over five and a half discovered by a young farmer who water table or do they have streams miles. I have another cave that I had just purchased a large farm in flowing through them? discovered on my property that's southeast Minnesota. He was out over half a mile long; another one looking for a calf on horseback one John: To find a cave in this state, that's not too far behind that one; spring morning after a heavy rain you'll need to dig in a . and then the rest of them all are less and found that a sinkhole had Typically when we excavate a sink- than, I'd say, 1000 feet. Somewhere formed on the edge of a ravine. hole, we find that the cave typically in there. Subsequently he entered the cave allows us to enter it about fourteen with his wife and two little kids and feet down from the bottom of the Aaron: Are they related hydrologi- thought it was so spectacular that it sinkhole. From there it usually cally? needed to be commercialized. So brings us into the main level in the he ended up commercializing this Dubuque Formation, which is proba- John: You know, we haven't done a cave which was about a half a mile bly forty to sixty feet below the sur- lot of dye tracing yet, but I believe long in the late 1960's and that com- face of the land. From there we typi- that they probably are. They're scat- mercialization effort failed after one cally find ourselves at the contact tered in about a mile diameter area or two seasons. zone between the Dubuque on my property. They each have Formation and the Stewartville Continued on Page 5 That cave sat empty until I came [member of the Galena Formation]. Caves.com Page 4 their own special characteristic. that may be unique up here is we're Some of them have unique features looking for little white dots. When that others don't. But probably the we dig in sinkholes, we have a fairly same water courses through most of reasonable expectation of finding a them. cave because that's why the sink- hole is there, but if we can uncover Aaron: You've been involved with just one rock with little white dots on caving in other states as well in the the back, we call it condensation Midwest. What are some other corrosion, we know there's air move- areas you've been involved in? ment down there, and then we're just going to pursue it with a John: I've traveled around the vengeance. United States and gone caving virtu- ally everywhere. I've been to Cheve Aaron: That's funny. I've seen that Cave in Mexico. Once in while, before and I've made a rough asso- when time permits, I'll go out to the ciation, but now that you mention it, I Black Hills and go wild caving, and agree, the white dots probably do so I've traveled all over and cave all indicate at least condensation if not Coldwater Cave was discovered in over, but stuck around close to home air flow as well. 1968 by cave divers and the State here primarily because we have paid to bore a hole into the cave. caves that are so close. I'm an hour John: In the southern part of this They leased the property from a and a half away from the caves here state, we found that it really points to local landowner who happened to in this state. air movement. own the property right about above the main trunk line, but the state of Aaron: Are there any special tools Aaron: Yeah, I've seen that before Iowa was unsuccessful in obtaining you guys have used in digging open also. Have you been involved with enough money to commercialize this these sinkholes? the Coldwater Cave activities of cave, so they turned the shaft and late? Is that something that you can the small building back over to the John: Well, we're hard core diggers. talk about now? landowner, after three years. Since Let's put it that way. then, this cave has been controlled John: I've discovered and explored by just a few key holders and access Aaron: Heavy equipment…? other caves on southeastern was not what it could have been, so Minnesota, and I've typically spent about eight years ago I embarked on John: Yeah, we do anything…we do the bulk of my time right on my own a campaign to create my own whatever it takes. Back in the early property because the caves don't get entrance into this cave and after 1980's it was very apparent that we any better than that. We have caves many hard fought years, I was able were not going to get anywhere like anybody else. We have rivers. to obtain 205 acres of that cave, so I unless we could open up sinkholes. We have hundred foot tall pits and have recently sunk a 30 inch diame- Even when you're in a cave, it's pret- passages. We have lots of mud, ter shaft into one of the side pas- ty apparent that if you want to find too. Most of the caves are dry. So, sages 188 feet down. going passages, even if you have we have a lot of exciting things hap- airflow and other signs, if you don't pening in our have the right digging equipment, caves, but I've you're not going to do it. So really been involved with what we're looking for are "cave other projects and signs," and if we can get the proper the most recent cave signs, the rest is just a matter project that has of removing the fill or widening pas- diverted some of sages that are inaccessible. So yes, my attention away we've got our special hand tools, from the Cave and drag boxes and all kinds of Farm has been goodies that we use. Coldwater Cave.

Aaron: What do you look for in Cold Water Cave "cave signs?" is located right across the John: Up here, I'm sure it's the Minnesota border, same as in other states. We want to which is probably spend some time where we're feel- thirty-forty minutes away from my Continued on Page 6 ing wind movement. Another thing farm. As you probably know, Caves.com Page 5 Aaron: Wow. That's a pretty signifi- ent rig. By the way, there were four cant hole to dig. different drill rigs that it took to John: We have a copy of the original accomplish this. Another rig came in survey, which we utilized for this John: It's a very large hole. There and installed a thirty inch steel cas- project, but before we began our are a lot of similarities between it ing. From there, they went down, main drilling, we hired a separate and Carroll Cave in Missouri. They utilizing a fifteen inch, twenty-four firm to come and drill a test hole. It had twelve miles of passage and inch, and thirty inch bit all in one. was a five and one-quarter inch test drilled down about 118 feet, took They coupled them all together and hole, which was very successful. about a year of blasting. That cave went down through this fifteen inch Then we lowered a camera down was also declared a National Natural hole until they were ten feet above the test hole and determined that Landmark. Coldwater Cave is a six- the cave ceiling. Then they contin- there were some minor formations in teen mile long cave. It's the 33rd ued downward using this triple bit the way, so we located the main longest in the United States. We system. It was remarkable in the shaft about fifteen feet away from were able to drill down 188 feet in sense that it put very little slurry or them. just a couple of months. It was a what we call "findings" down into the very quick project. cave passage. Aaron: That's great. So what are the current activities in the cave now? Aaron: How was it so quick? Aaron: Wow. That is really amaz- ing. John: You know, nobody from our John: It was quick as far as drilling. group has been more than two or Like I said, it was in the planning for John: So we have recently installed three hundred feet from the entrance eight years. It took a team of attor- a 188 foot ladder as a temporary because we've been spending our neys to move forward with this thing measure to get up and down. time making a lid and installing the because, obviously, we expected ladder system. Like we talked some resistance, but once we got Aaron: Still a pretty tight hole, about, most of our time is spent at the drill rigs out there, it went rela- though, isn't it? the Cave Farm, so I haven't had a tively fast. We were supposed to lot of time to devote to this project, have this shaft drilled in about a John: Well, thirty inches is optimal. but we have come a long way. We week and a half. It took two full That's the size that the State origi- have a secure entrance now with a months because the well rigs kept nally drilled at the other entrance, very nice, stable ladder, so we're breaking down due to the extreme and that's the size I've chosen for all ready to go. density of the rock. the entrances at the Cave Farm. Its small enough that you can be com- Aaron: What is the potential for Aaron: Is that the same kind of rock fortable leaning against the side with Coldwater Cave? Right now it's at that's in Minnesota on the Cave your back, if you're tired, and large 16 miles, I think you said, so is there Farm? enough for the larger cavers. potential for more cave there?

John: Yeah, or even harder. It Aaron: How high is the passage? John: Well, I'm a caver, and primarily drops a few rock layers [into the Was the height of the passage a what I'm into is cave exploration, so lower Galena] as you go south, so it reason why you didn't want the spoil, that's where I focus most of my was very brittle, very hard rock, quite or "findings," down in the cave? activities, and yes I feel there's unexpected from the drilling compa- potential for many more miles in this ny's standpoint. John: The original entrance that the particular cave. It's a spectacular government created was right smack cave by the way. Aaron: What diameter holes were dab in the middle of the main river drilled? borehole passage. It is quite unsight- Aaron: I believe I remember reading ly. They have a large dock system the NSS article… oh, maybe ten John: Thirty inch diameter. right above the water. I chose to years ago, or more… and I remem- create my entrance in a side pas- ber being very impressed and excit- Aaron: With one drill? sage away from the river passage, ed by it. and not only that, we were able to John: Well actually, because I didn't create an entrance that skimmed John: Yep. We're starting to work on want any contamination going into right along the edge of the side pas- another project nearby in Minnesota the cave, I requested that they drill a sage, so it was very unobtrusive to where there is known to be a cave fifteen inch hole all the way down the cave. system probably three times as large until ten feet above the cave ceiling. as the Coldwater Cave system, and They had to case the first twenty Aaron: Was that made possible we know that based on dye tracing. feet. Then when they reached that because of exploratory drilling, or The largest blind valley in the state depth, they pulled out the fifteen inch because of the accuracy of the sur- Continued on Page 7 casing and used a completely differ- vey? Caves.com Page 6 is located between Coldwater Cave entrance, making it very unstable and the Cave Farm, and as yet, Aaron: I bet it does. Heavy equip- and unsafe to keep such an nobody has been able to gain ment is the way to go, if you can get entrance. access to it, primarily because there a hold of that stuff. Well what is the are very few cave explorers up here, total potential of the Cave Farm? I have a cave radio that we use to so we're moving ahead with that find a suitable man-made entrance project now. John: I just keep purchasing more site, and we create that entrance land as I can. Land is getting pretty and after we're done creating the Aaron: Wow, that's sounds exciting. scarce because Rochester, man-made entrance, we permanent- Now, the Cave Farm caves… do Minnesota, which is the home of IBM ly close the sinkhole by using rebar they have their own hydrologic sys- and the Mayo Clinic, is just mush- and concrete and crushed rock. We tem that's unrelated to Coldwater rooming out. People are looking for really insist on restoring the sinkhole and the new area you mentioned? hobby farms and so land is being and surrounding ground to the origi- gobbled up, and I've been lucky nal condition before found it… or John: Totally unrelated. enough to expand the Cave Farm to even better. 325 acres. I also own over 200 Aaron: So these are three separate acres of underground rights beyond I know there are parts of the United hydrologic systems. this property, but I would like to con- States where if a sinkhole is opened tinue purchasing property, if and up and a cave is found, that may be John: Yes, totally three separate sys- when I can. I would suspect there a suitable entrance due to the differ- tems. are at least 15 more caves left to be ent rock strata. You might not have discovered on my farm based on the the problem with copious amounts of Aaron: What are the current activi- amount of sinkholes. I have no run-off from the nearby farm fields ties on the Cave Farm? doubt that will continue to become a down into the cave, but here that's reality if we continue to do what not a possibility because the sink- John: Well, right now we're hoping to we're doing. holes act as underground water con- open our eighteenth cave. Last year duits, we really need to create an was the first year we were able to Aaron: O.K., let me get this straight: entrance that is high and dry. utilize what we refer to as the "Cave you have 17 caves, and an 18th on Finder," which is our nickname for an the way. Do these each have their Aaron: What are the characteristics excavator. In the past I have hired own entrance? of your permanent entrances? out contractors - a local construction company- to help out with back-hoe- John: Yes, after I excavate a sink- John: Well, we utilize 30-inch cul- ing, and finally we just made the hole and locate the cave entrance, it verts. For the most part, I purchase decision to purchase the excavator is usually necessary to create a culverts with a rubber membrane so ourselves. I was they will last indefinitely. Usually able to find a 1996 those culverts are thicker gauge CAT 312 steel than the average road culvert. Excavator in Utah, We'll pick a spot with cave radio and had it shipped where it won't damage the cave to Wisconsin, environment, and then typically what where I had the I do is pull away all the soil and, kind stick and the boom of similar to what they did in Carroll extended so it will Cave, I drill thin diameter holes in a easily dig 25-feet 30-inch diameter circle and just work down. [Aaron my way right down into the cave chuckling in sur- ceiling. Typically we use a 200-grain prise] It's a very, det cord, and just create our own very good tool. way down. When we're down inside the cave, we remove any rock Aaron: [Still chuck- shards that may have fallen down ling] That's great! into the cave, and after that proce- How many caves dure we install the culvert right on has that thing gotten you into? more suitable artificial entrance into top of the bedrock. We'll backfill the the cave. The problem with allowing whole area, and then we'll put on a John: We found a couple last year the sinkhole to become your perma- special lid we make that has safety using it, and I suspect we'll find nent entrance is the fact that the releases from the inside in case many more. It sure beats the old cave will become flooded with copi- someone decides to play a little joke bucket and pulley system with wood ous amounts of mud and water that Continued on Page 8 shoring. will drain down into the sinkhole Caves.com Page 7 on you while you're inside the cave. laughing] in a year or two, that particular carri- Then we'll restore and seed the area er may not even want to become around the work site and few months That was in about 1971 or 1972, and involved in cave-liability insurance. later, you'll walk by and never know shortly after that I actually cut off my This is affecting a couple of the local that anything have ever been done pony tail and went through college commercial caves: one in Wisconsin there. There'll just be a two-foot and got a degree in law enforce- and one in south-eastern Minnesota high culvert sticking out of the ment. After a short stint in that, I and they're very, very concerned and ground with a lid on it. realized that I couldn't handle being worried about this. broke all of my life, so I became self Aaron: And you have 17 of these employed, and that'll bring us right Aaron: Do the caves of Minnesota around the cave farm? up to the present. have any endangered species of John: Yes. animals, plants, fungus anything? Aaron: So it's a life-long activity then. Aaron: Wow! John: Not to my knowledge. We John: I don't really know where it all have four species of bats, and like John: For the most part it's a heavily started, but as a little boy I just everywhere bats are practically wooded, rolling area, so it's some- remember being fascinated by endangered. We're worried about what difficult to detect these man- caves, and I've visited caves all over they're declining numbers. I took made entrances. the United States and to this day great pains to design our main cave can't lose the bug. I think it's just a building (which rests over the top of Aaron: Do some of the caves con- hobby that got out of control. the main entrance into Spring Valley nect together? Caverns) to incorporate a bat-acces- Aaron: Well, I think it's done that for sible entry. There are some rare John: A couple of them come pretty a lot of people. plants on some of the cliff faces near damn close, but for the most part the cave entrances, but really there they're spread out pretty far away John: It's almost a religious experi- are no endangered species that I'm from each other. It seems as though ence when you find a new cavern aware of that inhabit these caves. what we're finding is that if a person and stroll through it for miles. It truly is very persistent in this part of the is. It is an unbelievably overwhelm- Aaron: So there's no motivation in country, if you dig out a sinkhole, ing feeling that most of us in this the State government to make any you will find a cave. The theory is small club have had a chance to changes in the way that they treat that the sinkhole was caused by the experience. I guess along with that the caves right now. collapse of a large cave passage comes the responsibility of making that may be intersected by another sure that the discovery gets protect- John: No, not at all. cave passage, and so that's where ed. we're going to the find the caves. Aaron: Is there any motivation [by Aaron: That's a good approach. the State or landowners] to fill them When you travel further south Does Minnesota have cave protec- in? Perhaps to remove towards Iowa, you'll find that the tion laws? liability? sinkholes are poised directly over tall domes, perhaps over 100 to 150' John: They do not. And they do not John: You know, the DNR has been tall, so you get quite a surprise when have what we refer to as a sports- in the habit of obtaining caves and you open up one of those sinkholes man's law, which will guarantee that protecting them. I would doubt that and hear the rocks falling 150'. the landowner will not lose every- they would purposefully seal any of thing if somebody that he has invited the sinkholes or caves, if they were Aaron: This is all really impressive. onto his property has a serious acci- known. In the Twin Cities, we have Now I do want to ask the question dent. So our insurance in the upper quite a few areas that have been about how you got into this… Midwest has tripled in one year. For mined out as storage facilities. because I'm not aware of anyone instance my own carrier canceled Those have been backfilled and else who has done this type of my policy last year for no reason, some of them have been heavily work… other than they chose to get out of gated due to liability concerns. the cave-liability policy, which forced John: You know, I'm not sure how I me to search for insurance, and the Aaron: The insurance and liability got into it; I've always been caving. I agency I was with opened it up for issue sounds a very perplexing prob- have fond memories of roaring bidding. Three insurance companies lem for you. through the St. Paul mines late at across the United States responded night on my motorcycle with a 12- and in the end only one would enter- John: It's a problem. I was very pack strapped onto the back and my tain a bid. Subsequently the insur- happy to find out that my insurance girlfriend's breasts pressed tightly ance premiums tripled in one year Continued on Page 9 against my back. [Aaron and John and I've been warned that perhaps Caves.com Page 8 carrier picked up the Coldwater more I became ingrained in the pos- property and combined it with my sibilities. After you start opening Aaron: Are there springs? Cave Farm policy with only a $300 cave after cave with no end in sight, increase. That was a very pleasant it just kind of takes hold of you. The John: Oh yes. In fact, I discovered a surprise, but I don't anticipate that is landowner [original] was a very gra- total water-filled cave in south-east- going to last forever. cious individual, and he was as curi- ern Minnesota. There was a spring ous about what was underneath his coming out of the side of a hill, and I Aaron: So a liability release doesn't farm as I was. In fact he even was able to gain access to that, have any weight does it? encouraged me to use explosives on dove in, and found a spectacular his land. [Chuckling] That was a rare cavern in there, but it didn't go as far John: No, not really, although the individual indeed. as I had hoped. insurance carriers have requested that anyone who visits my farm sign Aaron: Yes. Definitely. In West Aaron: How about topography? Are a liability release, the theory being Virginia, where I do most of my cav- there hills, ridges? that it may help somewhat, though ing, a cave-protection and landown- they said in the end it never has. er-protection law, which says that John: This state is incredibly varied. even if a caver is given permission We have over 15,000 lakes, 6500 Aaron: You have a little more con- to go on the property, the landowner rivers and streams, which translates trolled situation on your property: can not be held responsible because to 900,000 miles of shoreline. The you know who is coming and going the feature [cave, sinkhole, etc.] was largest Federal wilderness, east of and those people are your friends, there prior to the landowner. the Rockies, which is called the and they're not going to sue you, Therefore the person who owns Boundary Waters, lies in the extreme right? shouldn't be responsible for it if he or north-west part of the state. It's she didn't have control over it. almost 1.1 million acres. When you John: That's correct. The property is That's probably due to the fact that travel to the northern part of the well gated and anyone who has there are so many naturally open state, it's heavily forested. When you access is well known to the caving cave entrances. refer to Minneapolis-St. Paul, it's community. We do have visitation mostly flat terrain, though there are from the University of Minnesota and John: Yeah, I suspect that's true. significant pockets of woods. When some of the local nature groups, and There are a few cavers in Wisconsin you travel to the western part of the of course the local caving communi- trying to deal with that problem and state, it's mostly all-out flat cropland, ty. trying to approach the Legislature to but the south-eastern part of this slowly get the wheels moving so we state is very unique because it's Aaron: So the worst case scenario, it can change things. Since Wisconsin unglaciated. The glaciers retreated sounds to me, is that you would is our neighboring state, we have well before they met the south-east- have to more tightly control access, hope that if the situation works out ern corner of this state, and so we if the insurance carriers decided it over there, then we can pick up on it have fantastic limestone bluffs, was too much liability for them, and over here, and try and force the rolling hills, meadows; it's extremely then you would have to hope no one issues: [the first one being] cave varied and picturesque. would sue you… vandalism laws, and second the lia- bility issue. Aaron: I was going to ask what effect John: That's about it. Eight years the glaciation had on the caves, but ago there was a major scare in Like you say, is not a hot topic it sounds to me that since there was south-eastern Minnesota. The insur- up here. We have very little in karst no glaciation, you still can get ance companies were actually warn- features, and what we do have is access to them. ing landowners not to allow cavers located in the far south-eastern part onto their property, especially to dig of the state, and so if you would ask John: You sure can, and that's a in sinkholes, due to the liability situa- the typical person, "What do you good thing, but we are always tion. For a while it was a tough sell think about caves?" they wouldn't reminded that the last glacial retreat for us to explore private property in have a clue what you're talking brought with it copious amounts of that part of the state. about. Furthermore they don't even water and mud. The caves were well know what a sinkhole is. When you formed before the last glacier and Aaron: Has this reason been a big a get down into south-eastern unfortunately the last glacier filled a motivator for you to buy your own Minnesota, you suddenly encounter lot of these caves up with sediment. property and work on your own prop- thousands of sinkholes, but most of It seems that the caves we're finding erty? the farmers don't even have a clue now were reopened by the water of what's underneath them. They're mass that flowed back through that John: Not necessarily, I would say it just thankful they can dump their area and reopened significant cave seemed as though the more time I garbage and pesticides in the sink- Continued on Page 10 spent on this particular farm, the holes. Caves.com Page 9 passages. You'll find significant John: We have anticlines and syn- causes behind the formation of the caves, but you'll also find that many clines, but we haven't really encoun- speleothem bands and the factors passages are almost filled with gla- tered those in a cave yet. It's fairly that control the thickness of these cier till, some of which came from clear that you can be in one rock bands, whether these bands are Canada, [i.e.] granite. It's a very strata in a certain part of the county, annual, whether these bands can be beautiful part of the state. and a mile away it will drop 40 or 50 used for dating speleothems, then feet. finally to construct climate and vege- Aaron: So because when you're in tative history. cave, and you're expecting sedi- Aaron: So there is some angle of the ment, then you can have an antici- bedrock, but not that significant… Aaron: So is this research ongoing pation that the cave will continue if pretty flat-lying limestone, then. on the Cave Farm? you can get through the sediment choke, right? John: You're right about the caves John: Yes, it is. being joint controlled, but when you John: That's exactly right. We utilize get to the lower levels, if you do find Aaron: Ahh, good. cameras that we can probe ahead, a river or stream passage, it will but for the most part, if we get "cave meander with [apparently] no rhyme John: In fact, the University is sam- signs" we'll go ahead excavate it the or no reason. So the maps look a pling or testing speleothems from old-fashioned way, if we're in a cave, little strange. around the world. It's very exciting. and go ahead and use our drag boxes and other digging parapherna- Aaron: That's interesting. Aaron: Is there any other research lia. ongoing? John: We can predict where we're Aaron: What are some of the biggest going to find new passages based John: Well, yes, there are dye passages? on the joint-control history. We can traces that are going on all the time, predict that every 50 to 75 feet, for and there are many factions of stud- John: I would say 40-forty feet wide, instance, we're going to hit a north- ies that are going on by different by probably 20-feet tall. Those are south passage, so if we're digging in groups including folks from the DNR. some of the larger passages. Most an east-west passage, we know that It's very exciting to see that happen- of the passages are about, I would we've got a certain number of feet to ing. guess, 8-feet wide by 8-feet tall. go before we'll probably get a cross That seems to be the norm, though joint. Aaron: Well, you have a perfect we have significant amount of cave place for it to happen, certainly. I passage that is very, very tall. I was Aaron: Do some of the caves have think without the involvement that in one passage in my cave a few maze passages? you've had in there, it wouldn't be weeks ago, and we actually had a possible for people to be doing that cave radio and measured it and it John: Only in the lower levels where kind of research. was about 140' tall. the water meanders… at least in this part of the state. There are maze John: I consider myself the tempo- Aaron: Wow, that's very big by any caves further to the east in the rary steward of these caves, and standards. south-eastern corner. For the most after I'm either killed in one of them part, where we're caving actively, or after I'm retired, the caves will John: … and of course we have the there are no real maze caves. continue to be there for the rivers and streams that run through researchers and cavers, alike. the lower levels with aqua-blue Aaron: So, let's see… we've hit on a green, crystal clear water just wait- lot of topics, and we've been talking Aaron: That's good. That's great. ing to be dove. So there's a lot of for about an hour. That's usually Well, John, it's been nice talking with varied feature in these caves: there's what we do. Is there anything that you. lots of horizontal walking, and also a we've missed that you want to talk good share of vertical climbing that about? John: Yeah, I appreciate it. I enjoy one can do. the magazine. John: We should touch a little bit on Aaron: The caves are certainly the Department of Geology and developed along the joints, but are Geophysics at the University of they developed primarily along the Minnesota. They're really consid- dip or strike of the limestone in that ered to be the most leading authority area? Is there any dip or plunge to around the world regarding the bedrock there that controls cav- speleothem analysis. Dr. Calvin ern development? Alexander is heavily involved in this. They're attempting to understand the Caves.com Page 10