House of Commons Education Committee

The responsibilities of the Secretary of State

Oral and written evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 6 September 2010

HC 395-i Published on 27 October 2010 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00

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Education Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence

Taken before the Education Committee on Wednesday 28 July 2010

Members present: Mr Graham Stuart (Chair)

Conor Burns Charlotte Leslie Nic Dakin Ian Mearns Pat Glass Tessa Munt Damian Hinds Lisa Nandy Liz Kendall Craig Whittaker

Witnesses: Rt Hon Michael Gove MP,Secretary of State for Education, and David Bell, Permanent Secretary, Department for Education, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: Good morning. Welcome to this sitting of Department’s request from Partnerships for Schools the Education Committee, which is on the explicitly for use in a House of Commons debate. It responsibilities of the Secretary of State for was considered to be a valid comparison by that Education. I would like to welcome him and the body, so I felt that it was appropriate to use it in the Permanent Secretary from the Department to our House of Commons. There are a number of deliberations. Secretary of State, thank you for your comparisons that can be drawn. You can draw letter responding to my letter about the Sure Start comparisons, as I think I did, for example with the children’s centres report. In fact, we will have a full cost of building schools in Ireland, which is a point-by-point reply in the autumn, for which I am broadly comparable jurisdiction in a number of grateful. I also thank you for clarifying the position ways and has gone through similar property on the Early Years single funding formula, for which processes. The cost of building a school there is we are also grateful. Secretary of State, how much of something like two thirds of what Building Schools the information that you gave the House on 5 July for the Future costs. It is also the case that, in was accurate? conversations with Tim and other professionals at Michael Gove: I sought to give as much accurate Partnerships for Schools, I have been reinforced in information as possible about those schools that my conviction that we can procure schools much were going ahead as part of Building Schools for the more cheaply than has been the case in the past. I am Future and about those schools where, sadly, we grateful to Tim and his hard-working officials for were not able to continue construction. Before having worked with my team at the Department for making my statement, I sought to ensure that the Education in order to identify some of the cost accuracy of what I said to the House was as great as reductions that we can make, which will feed into a possible. As you and the Committee will know, there broader capital review. were some regrettable errors; I took the opportunity on the following Wednesday to apologise to the Q3 Chair: Thank you very much. When asked about House for the errors that were made, which were waste, Mr Byles acknowledged that there was some wholly my responsibility. and then immediately said that a lot of it was down to EU procurement rules. Do you accept that Q2 Chair: Thank you for that. You will have seen the analysis, and is there anything that can be done to transcript of yesterday’s evidence and know that Mr ensure that there aren’t these alternative models, Byles was asked specifically about the suggestion which are created at great expense and then have to that BSF had procured schools at three times the be scrapped—as Mr Byles put it, thrown in the bin? cost of commercial buildings. When asked if that Michael Gove: There are two very good points there. was accurate, he quite specifically said no. Could The first is the existence of EU procurement rules. It you respond to that? is certainly the case that EU procurement rules add Michael Gove: Yes; the information that BSF delay and cost to the process of procuring schools. buildings cost three times what commercial One of the reasons why I invoke that comparison buildings cost was information that we had received with Ireland—it is one of the reasons why we have from Partnerships for Schools. My Department had looked at Sweden—is that there are other European e-mailed Partnerships for Schools—actually prior to Union countries that can procure schools at a the Queen’s Speech—in order to get a comparison significantly lower cost. It is the case, in on a cost per square metre basis. The average cost of conversations that I have had with Mr Byles and his a Building Schools for the Future school is £1,800 highly professional team, that they have emphasised per square metre; we asked for comparisons with to me that while European Union procurement rules other buildings, and there were commercial are certainly a burden it is also the case that there are buildings that cost between £500 and £600 per other things that we can do in order to lower the cost square metre. That information was provided at my of schools, whether or not we use the procurement Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 2 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell model that Partnerships for Schools has used in the end, one of the ways in which Building Schools for past or an alternative one. There are changes that we the Future was meeting targets was by allocating can make to planning laws and to building money to local authorities on the basis not of need, regulations. It is also the case that there are changes but of a local authority’s readiness to meet some pre- that we can make to the other regulatory rules that set criteria. The other area in which I felt that we the Department has cleaved to in the past. For needed to change related to the fact that the whole example, there are regulations governing the procurement model meant that everyone had to sink environmental sustainability of buildings— a huge amount of cost into the process before bricks BREEAM regulations—which are for schools being were laid and before transformation could take rebuilt or refurbished, and have to be passed at a place. So you had anything between £7 million and particularly high threshold. I am very committed to £10 million being spent in the procurement process ensuring that new schools, and indeed all new on setting up a local education partnership. Once buildings, are environmentally sustainable, but the local education partnerships were set up, you would current regulatory framework is prescriptive in the have a process of procurement that led, to my mind, wrong way, and there are other ways in which we can to duplication. In terms of capturing some of the simultaneously lower costs and have greener benefits that have accrued—some of the insight— buildings, perhaps by having a greater degree of Tim and his team at Partnerships for Schools are system building and standardisation in the highly professional. They are collaborating with our procurement of schools. But this is work that is capital review, and the expertise and experience— going on with the capital review, and I have to say hard won—that the team has secured is being that I’ve been heartened and encouraged by the quarried by our capital review team. The cordial and professionalism and commitment that Tim and his productive relationship that the Department and team and Partnerships for Schools have shown in PfS has will inform the capital review in the future. this process. Chair: Thank you. May I now go to Tessa?

Q4 Chair: Thank you very much for that. Any Q5 Tessa Munt: Might I ask you a slightly more analysis of BSF would accept that there was a lot of general question? I want to know what your vision waste, but that things have improved. One of the is for education. I want you to imagine that, fears, with the review team coming in, would be that inconveniently, I have a two-year-old, a four-year- some of the lessons that have been learned might be old, a seven-year-old, a nine-year-old, an 11-year- lost if every effort is not made to capture what has old, a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old. been learned in the last few years. Are you thinking Michael Gove: Congratulations. of a completely new start? To what extent will you Tessa Munt: Thank you. They’re a handful. I want ensure that the lessons are learned? you to imagine that, more inconveniently, some of Michael Gove: I do want to have a system that is those children live in a city and some live in a rural significantly more cost-effective. When I made the area. I want you to tell me what your vision is for the announcement on 5 July, I did so after a great deal of children who are already in the system and those thought. It was not an easy announcement to make, who will go into the system and through it. because, inevitably, I was in the business of Michael Gove: The first thing to say is, well done on disappointing hopes. There are people who wanted having such an extensive and, I am sure, happy to see new schools in their area, who had been brood. The second thing to say is that each of your promised new schools by the last Government and children’s needs will be specific and individual, so in who would not see new schools in the way and on the spelling out what a general vision is, you have to timetable that the last Government had promised. I acknowledge that each of your children will be did not take that decision with any pleasure or any special and talented in a particular, individual way. relish, but looking back at the history of Building In terms of what my overall vision for education is, Schools for the Future, it’s clear that the whole I’ve used the phrase before: I want children to process was, to my mind, misconceived. One of the become authors of their own life story. The reason I fundamental flaws of Building Schools for the use that phrase is that I think that education is a Future is that it operated on an area-wide basis, and process of emancipation, of liberation. One of the two flaws flowed from that. Flaw one was that problems that this country has had historically is within a given local authority there might be some that we’ve been very good at educating a minority— schools in an advanced state of dilapidation but the gifted and talented—quite well, but the majority other schools in respectable—not ideal, but of children have not been educated as well as they respectable—buildings, all of which would be should have been. The days have gone, if they ever refurbished and repaired. In another part of the existed, when a society could survive by having an country, you would have schools in an advanced elite who were well educated according to a state of dilapidation that would not have their needs particular set of narrow academic criteria, and addressed by this programme for years to come. I others who were simply allowed to become hewers of know, Mr Chairman, that in your constituency, in wood and drawers of water later on. I think that’s Withernsea, there is a school in an advanced state of fundamentally a narrow and an unjust view of dilapidation that was not covered and wouldn’t have education. I also think it’s no longer economically been covered for years by BSF. So that was one sustainable, so what I would like to do is to ensure concern—that BSF didn’t target schools in the most that every child has an experience at school that need as effectively as possible. Indeed, towards the enables them not just to get the qualifications that Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 3

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell mean that they can choose the jobs or the university business goes, it is a huge area. Business can play a course that suits them and fulfils them. I also want bigger role—I’ve been talking to Bob Wigley at children to spend their time at school gaining access Business in the Community about this—in to what I believe is their inheritance—the best that providing governors for schools. One thing that has been thought and written. School should be an business can do is ensure, as part of its corporate enjoyable time. Horizons should be extended. social responsibility thinking, that it encourages Children should have an opportunity to encounter more business people to play a role in acting as worlds and ways of thinking that take them outside school governors. Business can also play a critical their environment, whatever it is, so at the end of role in helping us to improve vocational compulsory schooling, yes, children are equipped to qualifications. One of the things that we’ve got work well and yes, children are able to make their wrong over the last 150 years is the quality of own economic choices, but they also feel enriched. vocational qualifications in this country.I would like They’re able to enjoy music and literature. They’re the business community to play an even bigger role scientifically literate, so they can reject bogus in making sure that we have high-quality vocational arguments put forward by people who are qualifications to rank alongside those of countries attempting to seduce them into lazy ways of such as Germany. Business can play a role in thinking. They can analyse what politicians and educational improvement. There are organisations people in power say and know what’s rubbish and such as Serco, Tribal Group and others that play that what’s sensible. Above all, they can be happy, role, but it is important that they are effectively confident citizens and parents in the future. That is regulated. my overall vision, and obviously how it’s implemented is one of the things we’ll discuss in the course of the next hour. Q7 Tessa Munt: I want to ask you a little bit about the role of business specifically in the sponsorship of schools and other aspects such as the role of private Q6 Tessa Munt: Can I get you to home in slightly on and independent schools in the mix. the issues of faith and business? Michael Gove: On business sponsorship, some Michael Gove: On faith, we know that faith schools business organisations have been very effective are popular. We know that in those areas where faith academy sponsors and some individual business schools exist, they tend to be over-subscribed. I think men have been very effective academy sponsors. If I it’s no secret that I myself have two children who are were to single anyone out, it would be Lord Harris— at a faith primary school, which is doing an Phil Harris—whose chain of academies in south outstanding job. But I also recognise that there are London has transformed educational opportunities some people who explicitly do not want their for young people. His first school, the Harris CTC, children educated in a faith-based setting, and one of was the first school to be ranked outstanding in the principles behind our education reforms is to every area by Ofsted. More than 83% of its children give people the maximum amount of choice, so that achieve five A* to C at GCSE, even though it has a those people who may not necessarily have a very higher than average proportion of children from strong religious faith but believe that the ethos and poorer backgrounds. The other schools that Phil values of faith-based education are right for their Harris has taken over have done phenomenally well. children have that choice. Others, who want a Yes, he applies a businesslike mind and businesslike different approach, can take it as well. One of the terms of organisation to make sure that the school most striking things that I read recently was a group runs efficiently, but he is driven by a passion thought from Richard Dawkins that he might want for education. Anyone who visits the schools—I to take advantage of our education legislation to hope that those members of the Committee who open a new school that is set up on an explicitly have not will take the opportunity to do so—cannot atheist basis. It wouldn’t be my choice of school, but help but be impressed by what a visionary individual the whole point about our education reforms is that can do by turning round schools that have had an they are, in the broadest sense of the word, small “l” appalling record. I visited Falconwood, one of the liberal. They exist to provide that greater degree of schools that he took over, where they used to have choice. However, one of the things that I do boarding across the windows so that visitors who recognise is that there are concerns about social walked down the corridor could not see what was cohesion, integration and inappropriate faith groups happening in the classroom because the behaviour using education as an opportunity to push their of the children was so poor. The school stopped at 12 agenda. That is why, when I was in opposition, I on Friday because it was run in the interests of the asked a number of questions about the way in which teachers, not the students. Now that he has taken it public money was going to certain groups, in order over, that school has been transformed. Attainment to ensure that it didn’t go to extremist groups, and it is improving. Poorer children who were effectively is why the Permanent Secretary and I and officials written off now have the chance of a better have been working to ensure that the regulations education, thanks to him. To my mind, he is a hero. that govern faith-based education are such that we On the broader issue of the role of the private and the don’t have groups with an extremist, a independent sector, we need to say to public schools, fundamentalist or a narrow agenda taking schools “Yes, you are charities. The provision of education over. It is also why we have been quite clear that you is a charitable purpose.” But we must recognise as a cannot have, in the science curriculum, creationism society that we need to do more collectively to raise taught as though it were scientific truth. 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Ev 4 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell as Anthony Seldon at Wellington who has sponsored 150,000 16 to 18-year-old learners receive their an academy or the governors of Uppingham who education. The Prime Minister’s announcement on have played a big role in supporting people like FE funding, which was welcome, also omitted sixth- David Ross and academies in other areas are to be form colleges. In the light of that, and of the advice applauded. When Andrew Adonis was to sixth-form colleges that BSF will deal with their Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools, future capital remit, don’t you feel it would be he said that what we wanted from independent helpful to include them in the review of capital? schools was a sort of DNA transfer into the state Michael Gove: Yes, I think it certainly would be, and sector to help raise attainment. That is absolutely I am anxious to ensure that sixth-form colleges are right. involved in the review. I have been very impressed by the way in which sixth-form colleges operate. Q8 Nic Dakin: I want to take you back to your Around 40% of sixth-form colleges are ranked as statement in the House on 5 July. You said that there outstanding by Ofsted. It is interesting that they are were nine meta-stages of the BSF process, but some of the educational institutions that have been yesterday Mr Byles said that that was describing the most independent of both local and central process right at the beginning, and that it had been government, and it is interesting that they have a significantly refined, and was much more effective particularly good record when it comes to raising and down to five stages. Were you rather over-egging attainment for children from underprivileged the pudding at that point? backgrounds. The success of sixth-form colleges Michael Gove: The nine meta-stages are the stages reinforces in my mind the belief that a greater degree through which all the schools that are going ahead of autonomy and independence can generate have had to go. We produced a document containing fantastic results. It is certainly the case that we can the authoritative list of those school projects that learn from sixth-form colleges about effective were going ahead. It listed the stages through which procurement, and I certainly want them to be local authorities had to go before procuring schools. involved in the capital review. I will ask the capital It was subdivided into nine stages, and the document review team to ensure that its work is informed by was signed off by Partnerships for Schools and the sixth-form college principals and the great work that Department for Education. No one would deny, however you slice up those stages, that the process they have done. has been intensely bureaucratic, nor would anyone deny that Tim Byles has been a highly professional chief executive of Partnerships for Schools. He has Q12 Nic Dakin: Of course, FE colleges generally worked within a framework laid down by the have received a lot of investment over the last seven previous Government in order to try, within those years, and there must be lessons to be learned from constraints, to make it significantly more efficient. that too. You helpfully mentioned in your answers to earlier questions the issue of dilapidation of Q9 Nic Dakin: When Mr Byles was saying that it was buildings, but the terms of reference for the capital simplified, and that it was only five stages, was he review as I read them—I may have read them right to obviously over-simplify it? wrongly—do not include consideration of Michael Gove: There are different ways of looking at additional places, surplus places and dilapidated it. There were nine meta-stages through which all the buildings. Do you feel that those terms of reference schools that went ahead—that on 5 July we were should be widened to pick up such issues? They seem glad to allow to go ahead—had gone through. There to be heavily focused on new providers and new were also nine stages in the process that still operates schools, rather than on the issues that you at the moment. How you divide each stage depends highlighted in your earlier answers. on where you look. I shall find the detail in the Michael Gove: The review team’s terms of reference document that was signed off by Partnerships for were drawn widely to ensure that they took account Schools, and come back to you.1 of our stated priorities. I shall make two points. One of the documents that I have read during the last two Q10 Nic Dakin: You also mentioned a school that weeks while I have been considering how the capital had to have its whole building reconstructed because review should go forward was a report produced by the corridors were too narrow. Was that school built the Office of Government Commerce. It analysed under BSF or a different programme? how the primary capital programme—the Michael Gove: It was built under a predecessor programme of capital investment for primary programme, a PFI programme. When I was schools—had gone. It rang alarm bells before the informed of that, I took the opportunity to correct last election, saying that there was a significant the record in the House. problem—a critical problem—with the failure of government to provide sufficient basic-need places Q11 Nic Dakin: So it has been corrected? May I turn for children coming on stream in primary schools. I to the terms of reference for the James review, and was struck by the fact that although that alarm bell how it has been set up? My interest in sixth-form had been rung, action had not been taken before the colleges is registered. The terms of reference for the election. One of my priorities—I have stated this James review omits sixth-form colleges, where clearly, and I know that the capital review team is aware of it—is to make sure that we provide a 1 See reply to Q13. sufficient number of places for children at primary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 5

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell level in future. The point about dilapidation was decision. Do you think that the decision to stop the made earlier in response to the Chairman’s question. projects on the basis of whether or not they had In my conversations with the capital review team, it reached financial close was fair? is certainly the case that it is aware of my priorities Michael Gove: I do think it was fair, yes. Again, the in these areas. advice that officials give is necessarily covered by privileged status, so that advisers can speak freely during the process. Tim was candid in talking to you Q13 Nic Dakin: That is additional to what is in the yesterday, so I think it is fair to run through the terms of reference as written, which is very helpful. process. It was never the case that I received advice Finally, may I pick one area where there has been about, for example, choosing to apply a different set concern as to why some schools have been included of criteria, other than where local authorities were in in the list? I was pleased that Mr Byles was able to the procurement process. As I just said in response confirm yesterday that the list is finally correct, and to Mr Dakin’s questions, the procurement process is we are all very happy about that, but I understand perhaps not the most simple process ever designed that schools in Salford and Wigan were part of the by government, and so in drawing the line, you had same LEP process, yet some are going ahead, and to decide whether or not you drew it at financial some are not. That seems very confusing. close, or at close of dialogue, or at some other point Michael Gove: It is confusing, and in a way that is along the way. The reason why we chose financial one of the factors about the whole Building Schools close was that it seemed to us clearest that if a for the Future programme. It was designed in a way contract had been signed, that was a binding that was almost a conspiracy against the public to commitment; but prior to that, if no contract had prevent them from understanding what was going been signed—this was the legal advice as well—there on. You can have joint LEPs, but with local was no requirement to follow through. By drawing authorities at different stages in the procurement the line where we did, broadly 50% of projects went process. The whole language of BSF, PfS and LEPs through and broadly 50% of projects were stopped. is bound to be confusing to most people outside, Before the general election, the last Government had when what they want is a government who get on said that, overall, they anticipated a 50% reduction with repairing schools that are in a poor state. That in capital expenditure in the first three years of this is what we are aiming to do. The shadow Secretary Parliament, so in that sense, we drew the line where of State made the point that there were two mistakes the law would lead you to believe was the most in the list. One related to a school in North appropriate place to draw it—these are always Tyneside—Monkseaton. We said that work had judgments; you can never be scientifically accurate been stopped, but he said that the school was open, about it—but we also did it in accordance with the so there must have been a mistake. Actually, the broad capital envelope laid out by the last work that had been stopped at Monkseaton was ICT Government. Of course, people would work, as distinct from rebuilding work. The fact that understandably be disappointed, but that seemed to the shadow Secretary of State, a very gifted be the basis on which the decision could be taken. politician at the top of his powers, who had been in charge of this for three years, could make a mistake like that shows that the BSF process is one that can Q15 Lisa Nandy: You also talked about the capital defeat even the most talented of us, and he has my review and that you would be considering issues of sympathies. The document that was backed by both particular concern, such as the state of school PfS and the Department lists the stages: remit stage, buildings and the pressure on places. Will you also pre-procurement stage, notice in the Official Journal consider cases where school closures are planned, of the European Union, to which we are all partly as a result of anticipated Building Schools for subscribers, dialogue, close of dialogue, preferred the Future work? bidder, financial close, operational LEP with one Michael Gove: My two priorities are to consider wave of investment and then operational LEP with pressure—basic need pressure, where they need more than one wave of investment. That final point pupil places—and, as you mentioned, dilapidation. touches on your question—where there are at least However, it is also the case that some local two, perhaps three, local authorities. There are at authorities have put in a great deal of work, and that least two LEPs, perhaps three, where more than one work should not be set at nothing. It is clearly the local authority is involved. case that people have worked very hard to identify the educational needs in their area and, in some cases, they will have done some work on design and Q14 Lisa Nandy: I want to follow on from Nic’s so on, which we can develop and build on. The questions. Yesterday, we had Mr Byles here. We future decisions that we take will inevitably be asked him about how the decision was taken to stop influenced by that. They will also be influenced by schools that had reached financial close, and the basic organising principle behind the coalition whether that decision could have been taken on Government, which is that we want to target other grounds, such as the state of school buildings disadvantage as well. One of things behind Building or pressure on school places, or where there had been Schools for the Future—one of the processes—was decisions to close schools because of the anticipated that it was designed to address disadvantage. I do Building Schools for the Future money. He told us not believe that it did so as effectively as it should that he had drawn up a number of lists against have done, but I think that is a noble aim, and it is different criteria, which were then sent to you for one that will guide us as well. Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

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28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Q16 Lisa Nandy: Finally,Nic also talked about some important that you talk to the people who are still of the confusion that has been caused by the way in entirely confused about the situation as it stands. I which this has been decided and announced. Before gather from some of the media reports that you are coming here today, I was contacted by schools from being pursued by a chicken, about the Sandwell all over the country that are still in a considerable closure. I suggest that, rather than campaigns like state of confusion about the decision that’s been that, what we really need is for those people who are taken. Nic mentioned Wigan and Salford—Wigan is still in a state of real confusion about this decision to obviously the borough that I know best and have an understand why it was taken. I am not suggesting interest in. I think that it is a really good example of that those decisions are all wrong. What I am where, whether or not the decision was non- suggesting is that it is very difficult for those schools, discriminatory—on the face of it, it doesn’t appear those local authorities and those parents, staff and to be because Wigan and Salford, as I understand it, children to understand why that decision has been were at exactly the same stage in the process— taken, and that does need to be addressed. Salford’s schools are going ahead and Wigan’s Michael Gove: I do understand exactly what you say, aren’t. Yesterday, when Mr Balls came and gave and it is confusing for many of them, but the evidence to us, he said that there are two criteria for system—the BSF system—was not one that I “fair”. One is about the factors that have been taken designed. I wish that the system that had been into account; the other is whether or not the decision designed had been a lot simpler. Then, the distress is non-discriminatory. Do you accept that there are that was felt by your constituents and by others schools that are still entirely confused—“devastated would not be felt. Partnerships for Schools and the and heartbroken”, in the words of one teacher from Department have been in touch with local Waltham Forest—about the decision that has been authorities and with individual schools to explain to taken; and do you also accept that there is a need to them the nature of the procurement process and why talk to those schools and to those local authorities, some people fall on either side of the line. Lots of to ensure that they understand the criteria on which parliamentarians and lots of other people found the that decision was taken? process inevitably bewildering. I will not mention Michael Gove: I understand that there will be people the city involved, but I had a meeting with some who are heartbroken by the decision, but the Members of Parliament from another significant decision was taken by me on the basis of saying, “We city who were led to believe, as the local authority need to draw the line here. These are the principles. was led to believe, that they were in one stage of the It’s a rules-based decision.” Then, I said to officials, process when in fact they weren’t. Now it’s “Will you tell me which schools fall on either side?” understandable that there should be that sense of So it wasn’t the case that I was saying, “I’ll put disappointment, but that is a consequence of this Wigan here and Salford there.” I said, “If we use the process, which led many people to believe that they existing system that we have inherited and if we were closer to securing buildings than was actually apply strictly fair criteria, then let’s inform those the case. I deeply regret that a complex situation led schools, local authorities and relevant constituency to that confusion. As for the chicken, it’s nice of you Members of what happens.” As I say, it is an to ask about it, but my children were delighted when inherently confusing system—not of our design—so it showed up outside our house. “Will it lay an egg?” moving away from it will necessarily involve my little daughter asked, and I said, looking at the confusion. The one thing that I would say is that, precise physiognomy of the chicken, that I was not prior to this, there were lots of local authorities that sure that that was likely to happen, but the Daily were in a state of confusion about how BSF worked. Mirror can produce miracles, I am sure. One of the things that I’ve been struck by in the letters that I have received from Members of Parliament, local authorities and others is that many Q18 Liz Kendall: I want to go back to the advice that of them have said, “We’re sorry that our school isn’t was given and the decision on Building Schools for going ahead, but thank you for ending BSF. The the Future. As you know, yesterday Tim Byles said waste, the bureaucracy—it was a total waste of our that PfS “advised the Department that it would be time and an immensely frustrating process. Please wise to validate the information with each local put something simpler in place.” Now it is my job to authority before publication due to the inherent risk ensure that we can get the money, if at all possible, of errors. The advice was not followed”. Later on, he as quickly as possible to those schools that are in the confirmed that that advice was given through greatest need. And I do sympathise with the schools officials, so I want to ask Mr Bell, did his officials in that position. receive that information from Partnerships for Schools and did he pass it on to the Secretary of State? Q17 Lisa Nandy: I want to push you on this, because David Bell: There were conversations at official level there are still schools that are in a considerable state between the Department and Tim Byles, in which of confusion. In fact, having looked through the Tim Byles did warn of the risk of errors—in fact, the paperwork for one of those examples in detail, I am sort of errors that he described yesterday: the name completely confused about how one set of projects change of a school, perhaps, or a parliamentary has been categorised as going ahead and one set boundary being redrawn and so on. At no point hasn’t. You said in the House that you would go and during that conversation was the risk of apologise to those schools where the projects are not misclassification error identified, as turned out to be going ahead, but I would suggest that it is just as the case with Sandwell, which Mr Byles apologised Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 7

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell for yesterday and previously. The Secretary of State Q21 Liz Kendall: Did you at any time have any was told about the risk of errors in the list, of the sort advice or recommendation from the Treasury about that Mr Byles and I have described. Officials did not whether to go ahead with the 14 sample project put to the Secretary of State the option of checking schools? the data with local authorities, on the grounds that Michael Gove: I first talked to the Treasury in the they believed that the kind of errors that we have just middle of June, I think, about my desire to ensure described were capable of being checked without that we made an announcement. From that point validation with the local authorities. The Secretary on, I had a number of conversations with the of State, being advised of potential errors in the list, Treasury about how precisely we should proceed. asked for the data to be checked, and Partnerships for Schools was tasked with the checking of that Q22 Liz Kendall: What did the Treasury recommend information. Colleagues and Partnerships for about the 14 sample project schools? Schools confirmed, at various stages after that Michael Gove: We had a number of discussions advice to the Secretary of State, that they were about how to proceed, and those discussions double-checking and triple-checking the data, but, resulted in us putting those schools in a particular as we have all seen, subsequent events demonstrated category, where they were for discussion. that it was not sufficient to remove all the errors in advance of the first statement to the House of Q23 Liz Kendall: So the Treasury did not make any Commons. recommendation about those 14 sample project schools? Q19 Liz Kendall: Why do you think errors were still Michael Gove: We had discussions with the Treasury made? Obviously there has been a lot of discussion about what should happen with those, and we came about the list being rushed through and there being to this eventual conclusion. very little time for checking over 700 schools. How much time did Partnerships for Schools have to Q24 Liz Kendall: Okay. Staying on the 14 sample check over 700 schools? project schools, when will the decision be announced David Bell: In a sense, the decision was not rushed at about whether they will go ahead? all, because some of the earliest conversations I had Michael Gove: We are talking to the Treasury now with the Secretary of State and the new ministerial about making sure that we can make that team were about what we were going to do with announcement as quickly as possible. Building Schools for the Future. There were many conversations—the Secretary of State has Q25 Liz Kendall: Will the issue of whether legal acknowledged this morning that he asked for a action may or may not be taken over those schools number of different cuts of the data to understand influence your decision about whether they will go what the potential consequences were. This was a ahead? very detailed, very careful process. Throughout that Michael Gove: A number of factors are influencing time, PfS was checking data and providing new cuts our decision about whether we should go ahead. of that data to the Secretary of State. PfS said that it was checking the data all the way through, so I do Q26 Liz Kendall: And legal implications will be one not think that there is any question that there was of them? some sort of last-minute, rushed process of checking Michael Gove: When we have taken the whole set of the data. To a large extent that was going on. In decisions about Building Schools for the Future, we relation to your first point about how this happened, have always taken advice. We took legal advice at PfS acknowledged that it made some human errors every stage. We are obviously looking at what the in relation to the misclassification of Sandwell industry and local authorities say, and we are schools, and there were some errors in some of the looking at the particular complex of factors that data that the Department gave to PfS for further govern the position that these schools are in. These checking, so there were errors there. There is are schools where a great deal of preparation work absolutely no argument about that and we accept had been done and the schools that were closest to responsibility for those errors not having been the line, where it was drawn, so these are the schools corrected before the Secretary of State made his that are the hardest cases, as it were. Because they are announcement. the hardest cases, we wanted to give them an extra level of care, attention and thought. My officials, Q20 Liz Kendall: We have talked about those officials at Partnerships for Schools and officials in schools that were at financial close and those that the Treasury are involved in trying to make sure that weren’t, but there was also another category: the 14 we make the right decision in that respect. sample project schools. Can I ask the Secretary of State, when was the decision made to have schools Q27 Liz Kendall: But I assume you would not want divided according to financial close, not financial to go ahead if you were going to be legally challenged close, and the 14 sample project schools? On what about them? date was the decision taken that those would be the Michael Gove: When it comes to the whole question three criteria? of legal challenge, there is a variety of issues. The Michael Gove: To the best of my recollection, it was first is, obviously, is there anyone who says that they taken on the Thursday before the Monday when I might challenge? Of course, you cannot know spoke to the House of Commons. whether people will feel tempted to, or what decision Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 8 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell they might make. It is also the case that, even though when things go wrong, the responsibility is the people might feel tempted to challenge, there is also Secretary of State’s to acknowledge; that is why I the question of what the likelihood is of any made the apology that I did. challenge being successful. So in the first case you make a judgment about attitude, in the second case Q30 Liz Kendall: Do you think that if you had taken you make a judgment about the law, and then of the decision about the different criteria—financial course there is the question of what the costs close, not financial close, and the sample projects— involved would be for yourself and for other parties. with more of a gap between the decision and when There is a number of factors to weigh, and we are the announcement was made, there would have been weighing all those factors as we think about how sufficient time to do more accurate validation? Do that decision should be met. you regret taking the decision so closely before the announcement? Q28 Liz Kendall: So legal implications will be part of Michael Gove: Actually, as far as I know, the the decision that is taken on those 14 sample significant error that relates to Sandwell was about schools? a misclassification, which did not come within any of Michael Gove: It already has been, in that we have those categories. It was the case that, at different looked at the legal advice. We specifically sought stages, the category into which schools would be legal advice in this context, as you would expect. sliced remained the same, so ultimately you can say that schools are going ahead in this category, or that they are not going ahead in this category, but the Q29 Liz Kendall: Finally,going back to you, Mr Bell. category in which schools rest did not change. Considering the fact that so many mistakes were made in the list, do you regret ignoring Partnerships for Schools’ advice to make sure the list was properly Q31 Conor Burns: Mr Bell, can I start with you? validated before the Secretary of State published it? When, as Permanent Secretary of the Department, David Bell: I think it was a mistake not to put to the you were looking at the possibility of a change of Secretary of State the possibility of checking the data government and looking at statements being made with local authorities. As Permanent Secretary, I am by Opposition spokespeople, you would have been ultimately responsible for the policy advice that goes under no illusion that they did not have clearly to the Secretary of State, so I take responsibility for worked-out ideas. Did you have conversations with that. A number of us made mistakes. There are a lot Mr Byles about preparations for what would happen of lessons to learn from this process, and one of the to BSF in the event of a Conservative Government? tasks for us now is to take stock and learn lessons, David Bell: Yes, we were talking for quite a period so, hopefully, this sort of thing will not happen before the election, and the Secretary of State, then again. in opposition, was talking to a number of the Michael Gove: Can I add one other thing pendant to Department’s non-departmental public bodies. We what the Permanent Secretary says? I had originally, had begun to speculate, but I think that it is fair to early in June, asked for information on a local say that in those pre-election conversations, we authority and constituency basis. It was also the case could go only so far. First of all, we did not that others within Government had asked for that necessarily know that all that we were being told was information and had been told that it could be going to be the complete picture—policies change in supplied on a school-by-school basis. As I think Tim opposition. Also, to be fair, those who were in Byles acknowledged yesterday, I asked for a lot of opposition at the time did not have all the information. It is a complicated process, and I felt it information at their disposal. I think that it is just the was my duty to do so. Before the election, I—or, nature of the pre-election period that we all work rather, my colleague Nick Gibb—had said that with imperfect information, in a sense. But yes, we financial close was likely to be the cut-off point, and were clear that particularly the Conservative party in that guided our thinking, but we wanted to opposition had some pretty radical changes in mind interrogate those assumptions, look at what was for BSF. happening on the ground and see what the consequences would be. At no stage did any official Q32 Conor Burns: One of the things that slightly say to me, “Delay this announcement.” It is also the surprised me yesterday in the evidence that Mr Byles case, as the Permanent Secretary mentioned, that no gave us was that he talked about how he had one said to me explicitly that the information should prepared a large number of lists on a variety of be validated at local authority level. And it is also the criteria, and that they were clear about what was at case that I and my officials were assured that the financial close or what was at close of dialogue. This information was being double and triple-checked. was a very professional, but very complex, As the Permanent Secretary has acknowledged, with organisation. With the level of run-in to this, were the benefit of perfect 20:20 hindsight we can you surprised that there were as many mistakes as acknowledge that mistakes were made, but I just there were in the information that was supplied to want to stress that my officials were diligent in you? ensuring that the list was checked, and used their David Bell: Some of the mistakes were the best efforts and offices to ensure that the list was responsibility of the Department in passing checked. Ultimately, however, the responsibility is information over to Partnerships for Schools. I have mine. One reason why I made the statement that I to be clear about that, for the avoidance of doubt. As did to the House of Commons is that I believe that Mr Byles said yesterday, and as I have said this Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 9

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell morning, the sorts of errors that we were talking was not entirely happy with the level of end-of-year about were in the main to do with the name of the flexibility that the Department for Education had. school, for example, opening and closing decisions On top of that, you had £155 billion deficit. And on and timetables. I think that he used the word “fluid” top of that, you had a promise to cut capital yesterday, and I think that the list was of that nature. expenditure, with no detail being provided. The In the end, we were all disappointed that we did not logical thing to presume is that, somewhere along the get the list right for the Secretary of State, and it was line, school capital expenditure would have been really important in those circumstances for me to constrained and if Building Schools for the Future apologise to the Secretary of State for the list not went ahead in its entirety, the consequence would being as accurate as it should have been, because have been that the amount of school capital that put him in an invidious position when he stood elsewhere would have been cut. One of the up in the House of Commons. documents that I had on my desk when I came in was a report from the Office of Government Commerce that said the most critical issue in relation to schools Q33 Conor Burns: Secretary of State, I wonder capital was the pressing need for an increase in places whether I might just probe a little with you about for primary school pupils. what the shadow Secretary of State said to us yesterday. There was a very clear exchange between you and him in the House of Commons on 11 Q34 Conor Burns: Can I lastly ask you to give some January about the capital programme and the advice to schools going forward? If I may say so, outgoing Government’s potential 50% reduction. from your point of view I think this has been a bit of The shadow Secretary of State told us yesterday that a PR disaster, because the impression is that you are he had had exchanges by letter with the then Chief ending all school building, when the reality is that Secretary, and I understand that he returned to the you have just cancelled Building Schools for the Department to look at that correspondence; he told Future. You have cancelled a programme, not ended us that BSF would pretty much be exempt from that the opportunity for schools to carry on and, 50% reduction. I’d like to put the same thing to you hopefully, improve themselves. Last Friday I visited that I put to him yesterday. Anecdotally, what I was the Kings school in the north of my constituency, finding in the run-up to the election is that the pace which will become an academy in September in of sign-off of schools that had completed all the partnership with Canford private school—they are necessary paperwork had decreased significantly, going to introduce a house system and all sorts of and there was a suspicion that a lot of the promises other things. The Kings school is in a very poor part wouldn’t be delivered regardless of which party won of Bournemouth. The head teacher said to me, the election. There seemed to be a marked decrease “Building Schools for the Future is gone. What do in the pace of closure. Do you share my suspicion we do now?” What is your message of advice to that, perhaps regardless of the outcome of the schools across the country that had been given hope election, many of the promised schools would have by the last Government and are now looking to you fallen victim to the economic circumstances that we and asking, “How do we approach you to improve are in? our schools in future?” Michael Gove: I do. Ultimately, it is a matter of Michael Gove: When it comes to PR, I am a fan of political contention. You mentioned, and I the view of the last Prime Minister, who said that mentioned earlier, that the previous Chancellor had other people could be keen on PR; he would committed to a 50% reduction in capital expenditure concentrate on policy. But I do take your point. An overall, but the previous Government— impression has been created that ending Building understandably, given that an election was Schools for the Future means there has been an end looming—hadn’t specified any capital project that to schools capital overall, because so much would end. A question mark was therefore hanging rhetorical hype was invested in BSF by the previous over every capital project. I am sure that the previous Government. As you know, Building Schools for the Secretary of State, had his Government been re- Future was only a third of capital investment overall elected and had he been put in that position, would in schools and, in fact, by ending this bureaucratic have fought tenaciously for his budget—but so scheme, we make it easier to allocate capital to would other Secretaries of State. I am sure that the schools in the future. As the Chairman teased out in Chancellor would have taken a view. We know that the first set of exchanges, one of the things we want there were a number of occasions in the run-up to the to do—this was reinforced by subsequent last election when the previous Secretary of State questions—is ensure that there is more money, and the previous Chief Secretary were in dispute particularly for primary schools and schools in about exactly what should be said about the dilapidation, than might otherwise have been the education budget. It was confirmed in a letter from case. In terms of expectation management, we are the Permanent Secretary to the previous Secretary of going to go through a very difficult period in the next State that the extent of end-of-year flexibility— public spending process. We all need to recognise basically, the capacity to use underspends in other that the extent of expenditure sustained by Departments to fund spending in your own borrowing that the last Government were carrying Department above the baseline—that the through in the run-up to the last election was Department for Education wanted to use was a unsustainable. In that sense, we do need to correct matter of discussion between the Treasury and the certain expectations. You are also right that it is Department. You had a situation where the Treasury important that we communicate to schools, parents Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 10 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell and pupils that capital investment in schools will the figure of £1,675 per pupil spent on IT and the continue. The most important things as far as I am Building Schools for the Future project, that seems concerned are meeting that need for new pupil places an astronomical number. I wonder which things you and dealing with those buildings in the worst expect—not to prejudge—to find savings in. condition. Michael Gove: In a way, one of the broader things Chair: I’m going to move on to Damian now. This is that we are doing in education reform overall is to a fascinating session, but time is flying by, so if we institute a series of changes which will help ensure could have short, sharp questions and— that professionals take more control over spending, Michael Gove: Briefer answers— so that they decide how to use resources more Chair: Briefer answers, we will move along effectively. Recently, I was struck when reading an effectively. interview with the superintendent of education in Edmonton in Canada about a point he made: once Q35 Damian Hinds: Secretary of State, following on you have devolved decision-making power and once from Conor’s questions, in terms of future capital, people are spending money for their own school in there is obviously the capital expenditure review, their own way, they get better value for money. That which reports at the end of the calendar year, point has been made to me by a variety of sixth-form whereas the spending review overall is in October. college principals and other head teachers. So if you How do you expect those two things to interact? take IT, I think as a country we spend more on IT in Michael Gove: I have asked the capital review to schools than almost any other nation, but many of produce an interim report, which can feed into the our teachers and parents might wonder whether we comprehensive spending review. There will be some are getting the best value. I have been engaging with preliminary findings to help them form the a number of organisations, from Apple through to comprehensive spending review. Once we have the Pearson and Microsoft, and talking to them about comprehensive spending review, we will know what what we need to do in IT. One of the points that they the pot of capital is, and then, once we have the made to me is that a little less investment in hardware capital review, we will know how we can use that and a little more investment in people is what is money as effectively as possible. required. If we want to make the best use of information technology, we need to have teachers and other professionals in school who are confident Q36 Damian Hinds: Also following on from Conor’s about how to use sophisticated technology and question about a school in his constituency—I have about how to make best use of it in the classroom one in my constituency as well of course, Mill Chase and elsewhere. It is in keeping with the broader school in Bordon—in broad terms, on the process, principle that I tick as well. When I made my whatever the eventual criteria that the review team announcement on 5 July, it was regrettable that we come up with and whatever the cash limits and so on, had to pause school building projects. But one of the there is presumably going to be a change in criteria, other points that I sought to make then is that the because we have talked about dilapidations and so area of principal investment that I would like to see on, but also a move away from area-wide is teaching. The single most important thing in applications. Potentially, you could have some education is improving the quality of the educational schools in an area effectively competing for the cash- experience for each child by investing in higher- limited overall CapEx pot with non-local authority quality teaching. The one thing that all international free schools. How does the process evolve and who evidence reinforces in my mind is that there is simply do schools make their case to for capital allocation? no way of generating educational improvement Michael Gove: What we are seeking to do is to make more effectively than by having the best qualified, the process simpler. In many cases, capital will either most highly motivated and most talented teachers in be going straight to schools or straight to local the classroom. Everything should be driven by that. authorities, but we want to be cutting out the middle If you get truly qualified and talented people in, they man as it were. Of course, schools and local will know the IT decisions they need to make in authorities will make their case. We will set up some order to improve education. criteria, which we hope to make as transparent and rules-based as possible. However, the reason why we brought people who have local authority and Q38 Chair: Before I come to Charlotte, may I ask business experience into the capital review is that I you, Secretary of State, about appointments and don’t want to prejudge that process. Everyone who pre-appointment hearings? The Chancellor has is involved in the process of the capital review has agreed that the Treasury Committee should have a said to me that they know that they can reduce costs right of veto on the appointment of the head of the and make the process simpler. I am holding them Office for Budget Responsibility. Do you think that to that. a similar right of veto is necessary for the small number of key posts for which other select Q37 Damian Hinds: Without prejudging, obviously, committees, including this one, carry out pre- in the future phase, it will be necessary to do more appointment hearings? with less. You have identified some things that you Michael Gove: With permission, Chairman, I am expect to find cost savings in—for example, in more very keen to explore that with the Committee. There modular design, better procurement or reforming are certain key appointments that Parliament should the whole LEP process. In what other areas do you have a say in. Your predecessor Committee took a expect to find savings? For example, when you read view on the appointment of the Children’s Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 11

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Commissioner, with which I had some sympathy. particular areas to stretch them. I entirely accept The individual concerned is now carrying out her that, when it comes to future capital allocation, duties very professionally, but that is not the point in disadvantage is a feature we will have to look at. I do a way. The point is that there was a process in place, not want to think that capital is always the route to which I felt was ridden roughshod over. I would like addressing disadvantage; I want to ensure that we to work with you to identify those posts that you— look at how we improve teaching. Parliament’s representatives—believe should be subject to pre-appointment hearings. If there are positions and appointments that the Department Q40 Charlotte Leslie: On that note, do you think makes that you believe should be subject to that there are lessons to be learned from charter schools, process, let’s discuss it. I do not want to set limits on which in America have tackled disadvantage, not that process, nor do I want to say at this stage what only through setting them up but some capital I think your role should be. You might want to argue expenditure? strongly that you should have veto power over some Michael Gove: That is a very good point. One of the posts and others where you might argue that the role striking things about the best charter schools is that you should play should be slightly smaller. Let’s they have often been set up alongside existing discuss that. schools. I was told a very striking story by a Chair: Thank you, Secretary of State; we will return colleague who visited two schools in the same block to that. in New York. One—in effect, a local authority school—had poor standards of behaviour and low levels of attainment in an area where it was difficult Q39 Charlotte Leslie: I want to ask broadly about for children to graduate from high school. In the departmental spending and priorities. First, as I same building, you had a charter school run by an understand it, BSF is a mechanism for capital spend, organisation started by teachers, which had as opposed to capital spend itself, which has already dramatically high levels of attainment. One of the been raised. Part of the reason there has been so impetuses behind the reforms that Barack Obama is much concern about the cancellation of BSF is that bringing into American education is the desire to it was seen as a way of targeting disadvantage in increase the number of charter schools, because he schools. I do not want to prejudge the capital recognises that if you give teachers the opportunity spending review, but will you explain and clarify how to take control of schools, set the ethos, decide on moving ahead with capital expenditure will tackle the curriculum and run the school in the way that disadvantage? Some of the concerns raised have they believe reflects their idealism and moral been based on a perception that capital spend will no purpose, you can generate fantastic results. For longer target disadvantage in the way that BSF did. example, the Knowledge is Power Program schools, Will you clarify how disadvantage will be the target which are the result of the amazing initiative and of capital spend? energy of two teachers, have had fantastic Michael Gove: I think that it is debatable to what achievements and have, in effect, closed the black- extent BSF effectively targeted disadvantage. There white achievement gap in parts of New York. We were some areas of the country where there were want to ensure that teachers have the same power clear problems. Children from poor backgrounds here. I am struck by the fact that teachers have said were being educated in poor circumstances and BSF to me, “Solicitors, doctors and other professionals was not addressing that. That is the first thing. The have the opportunity to set up practice, go where second thing is that the evidence that I have seen their services are needed and provide the service that shows that, if you educate children in very poor drew them into that profession and vocation in the circumstances, that undoubtedly has an impact on first place.” Teachers cannot do that; they cannot set their education. However, there is a lesser return to up schools in this country in the same way. That is value on investment once you pass a certain point. If why the reforms that we have brought in are children are being educated in dilapidated designed to harness that enthusiasm. I am overjoyed surroundings with inadequate materials, you have that a significant number of teachers have expressed got to address that. However, when you move from an interest in helping to set up new schools, good buildings to great buildings, as it were, that specifically in areas of disadvantage—The Times additional investment is not necessarily the most Educational Supplement covered this recently—to cost-effective way of using education pounds in address the huge problem in this country. Out of 57 order to transform children’s achievement. The most countries, we come second from bottom in the level cost-effective way—and this reflects what Mr Hinds of educational equity that we achieve. If we can was asking—is to invest in teaching and learning. borrow from what Barack Obama has done and use When it comes to capital allocation overall, I stress capital and revenue investment to create new dilapidation; I stress basic need, and I mentioned schools—Knowledge is Power Program schools— earlier that one thing that guides us in all areas of we can make a significant change in helping to spending is disadvantage. To my mind, a more address this historic inequality. promising area is the pupil premium: the idea that if we identify the most disadvantaged children, wherever they are in the country, we give the schools Q41 Charlotte Leslie: In terms of departmental that educate them more cash, so that they can invest spend priorities, we are where WE are—this is one of in one-to-one or small group tuition; Saturday or the problems—because politics engenders short- after-school lessons; or hiring specialists in term thinking about spending, owing to the cycle of Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 12 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell parliamentary terms. To what extent would early me, the education system in this country is still not intervention and long-term investment, for example, good enough. I think that we are falling behind other be part of departmental spend priorities? nations. If you look at where we have been over the Michael Gove: Just today, we are announcing a new past 10 years, we are lucky. We have a fantastic team initiative on early intervention. My deputy, Sarah of people working in our schools and we have the Teather, sits on a Cabinet Committee dealing with best generation of teachers ever, but other countries social justice, which is chaired by the Secretary of are moving faster ahead, and we must therefore step State for Work and Pensions. Today, Graham Allen, up the pace of reform. At the same time—as we have the honorable Member for Nottingham North, has just been discussing—the yawning gap in agreed to lead some work on how we can improve opportunity that exists between the children who early intervention. I agree with you that it is critically you represent in Gateshead and the children I important that we ensure, at the earliest possible represent in Surrey Heath seems to be a problem that stage, that we work particularly with those families we cannot start working on quickly enough. That is who have multiple difficulties to address some of the why I believe that we need to make this change. As problems that hold children back. The fact that for the schools opening in September, there are many Graham and Frank Field are working with us schools that have already been pursuing reflects their commitment—and the commitment of consultation. We invited applications from schools the coalition Government—to try to get beyond the weeks ago, and schools have been consulting their necessary political discussions that happen between local authorities, parents and a variety of other parties to try to build consensus in this area. I feel people with an interest in that issue. They have also strongly that unless you work early, some of the been going through the TUPE process, specified of inequalities that we have just been discussing get course by the European Union to ensure that the worse. I was struck when in opposition by some work force is given an appropriate say—that is the research by Leon Feinstein at the Institute of transfer of undertakings, protection of employment Education, which showed that children of low legislation. That consultation process is going on, cognitive ability from wealthy backgrounds but I stress that it is permissive legislation. A number overtake children of high cognitive ability from poor of schools said to us while we were in opposition, backgrounds before they even arrive at school. In “We want to take on academy freedoms. We were effect, rich thick kids do better than poor clever promised them in 2005, but the legislation didn’t children, and when they arrive at school, the come through. Fair enough, but we want them now.” situation as they go through gets worse. Schools In many cases, the reason that schools are so anxious should really be engines of social mobility that to take on those freedoms is not just to help their overcome the disadvantages of birth. Unfortunately, own students, but to help students in other schools at the moment, despite the best efforts of many as well. I was privileged to be able to speak to the people, the situation gets worse. That is why we need National College for Leadership of Schools and early intervention and the radical school reform that Children’s Services a couple of months ago. One of we have advanced. I know that some have said, the really striking things was that the brilliant, “Why are you in such a rush to make these changes?” outstanding heads there were all really anxious to I am unapologetically in a hurry to make a change acquire those freedoms, because they wanted to play because these children only have one chance and we a bigger role in improving schools that had not been have to get on with ensuring that they have a so fortunate. better life. Q43 Ian Mearns: Thank you for that; however, the Q42 Ian Mearns: Good morning. It is nice to see you. Bill was not allowed to have a Report stage and Good morning, David. It is lovely to see you again. therefore one takes from that that members of the The Academies Bill has now been passed. At the Government believe that it is a perfect measure to outset, in terms of the parliamentary timetable, there move the agenda forward. In the debate, we gained was an understanding that the Bill was passed a number of concessions, and I think that a lot of urgently so that academies could open this amendments that had been tabled would possibly September. But it is now clear that no schools will be have been regarded as helpful but would have operating as academies in September. A number of negated the transition of the Bill. From that schools may have their academy order by perspective, is it not remotely possible that you September, but they will then have to consult with might have acted in haste and that there will be some whoever they deem fit, as outlined in clause 5 of the measure of repenting at leisure down the line? Bill: “Before a maintained school in England is Michael Gove: As I said earlier, I am very keen to converted into an Academy, the school’s governing crack on with making changes to improve our body must consult such persons as they think educational system. We introduced the Bill in the appropriate.” Since no school can actually open and Lords and there was an opportunity for amendment operate as an academy in September, why the haste there. I have to say that the Bill was improved by the to get the Bill through before the close of thoughtful contributions of a variety of peers. I Parliament? stress that people such as Baroness Williams, Joan Michael Gove: I would say two things. The haste is Walmsley, Lord Low of Dalston, Lord Phillips of because I believe that we desperately need to Sudbury, and a variety of others—Liberal transform our educational system. Despite the best Democrats, Cross-Bench and Labour peers—all efforts of Ministers who have held this office before helped to improve the Bill. It made its passage Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 13

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell through the House of Commons and I know, Mr Grant-maintained schools have a machinery to Mearns, that you and Ms Glass and a variety of support them. What do you say is the support others made a number of what I thought—if you will machinery for academies in the future? forgive me for saying so—were very impressive and Michael Gove: That is a very good point. The first helpful contributions that helped us to refine the thing is that I see academy status as different from modal funding agreement and look at how we want grant-maintained school status. to change things going forward. At its heart, the Bill Ian Mearns: I was just quoting your colleagues. is a simple and permissive piece of legislation. It Michael Gove: Indeed. It is absolutely right. There simply grants to schools a set of freedoms that we are analogies with the grant-maintained school already know work and that the schools have been status and with CTCs. The one big difference is that very keen to acquire. Over the course of the next over the course of the last 15 years, a culture of year, we will have an opportunity to see how many collaboration has grown up in schools. There were schools use those freedoms. My view is that there some allegations, which I think were overdone, that will be a significant number, but we shall see how grant-maintained school heads, in one or two many, because the whole point is that this is cases, took the-devil-take-the-hindmost approach— permissive. We will also be able to see how those sharp-elbowed heads who didn’t care about the schools operate. The test, the proof of the pudding broader community. If that were true, I don’t think will be in the eating. Before coming here I had the it’s true now. A culture has grown up among heads opportunity to read this book called ‘Take care, Mr whereby they recognise that, through schemes such Baker!’, which was produced in 1988. It is a record of as the National Leaders of Education, it is their job all the evidence that my predecessor, Kenneth Baker, not just to generate improvement in their own had before he introduced the great Education schools, but to help collaborate with generating Reform Bill. Every single one of the arguments that improvement in other schools. I have total was used during the passage of our education reform confidence in the current crop of head teachers that was thrown at Ken. The striking thing is that the they will want to use these freedoms to work with architecture that he introduced in 1988 was the others. As far as the scrutiny and support that architecture of education reform that the 1997 schools in this position want to have, it was the case Labour Government accepted, with some small in the past that we had a schools funding agency, a emendation, and which has formed the bedrock of sort of slim body, which, whatever people criticised education improvement since. In that sense, I have the grant-maintained schools movement for, no one been heartened and am determined to press ahead by ever said was top-heavy or ineffective. We’re the fact that many of the criticisms that were made working with the YPLA, the body currently of Ken then were subsequently defeated by the responsible for regulating academies, to make sure evidence. that it can operate in the most appropriate way. The efficiency of work there is very high. Baroness Williams has asked us to report to Parliament Q44 Ian Mearns: So, in a nutshell, the Bill having annually on the progress of academy schools, and we gone through the process, how many schools will would like to do so. I am also meeting local there be in academy order by 1 September? authorities tomorrow to make sure that they are Michael Gove: At the moment, we have had a involved in the conversation and are part of the number of applications, and we are going through all broader process of school improvement. of them now. We know that anyone who’s in one of the local authority or catchment areas where the Q46 Ian Mearns: That response elicits a quick schools are affected will know all their schools. We question, which is important. If we come up with want to make sure that we have everything examples of schools where that local co-operation absolutely right with all the schools and that, if a and support aren’t happening, I take it that you school decides at the last moment not to go ahead, would encourage them to do so? for whatever reason, we do not say so. One thing I Michael Gove: Absolutely. If you, as a constituency should say is that some schools that have expressed Member or as a member of this Committee, feel that an interest have been on the receiving end of quite a there are schools that are using these freedoms not in lot of criticism from people outside their area and a way that works in the interests of the children in certain pressure groups. Some schools want to make that school and the wider community, do bring them sure that everything is in apple pie order before they to my attention. We might beg to differ, but please are on a public list, but we obviously want to share do so. with people as much information as possible. I will write to the Chairman and make sure that a letter is copied to all Members once we know exact numbers, Q47 Chair: Secretary of State, can I press you a little names and locations in a publishable state.2 more on support? Primary schools can now become academies. Let’s take an outstanding primary school in an area that is not particularly well off. It has a Q45 Ian Mearns: One last thing from me. Members good head and a good chairman of governors. What on your Benches, during the passage of the Bill, quite support structures will be in place? The school will openly referred to the fact that they saw academies take the money spent on its behalf by the local as a reinvention of the grant-maintained status. authority. Some may fear that probably the first thing it will do is pay the head more. That will 2 See Ev 21-28 swallow the cash very easily.It will look like the same Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 14 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell school as before, with the same head and governing likely to play the sort of the role that both you and I body,with no outside sponsor and no requirement to envisage they should play of intervening where have any other support structure. Eighteen months necessary in order to support improvement, but also later, the head and the chairman of governors go. A stepping back when excellent practice is going on. person on the committee get press-ganged to take over finance although they have no strength in it. What happens now is that the accountancy specialist Q48 Pat Glass: May I follow up on an earlier from the local authority gives up his Wednesday question? Schools will fail. They change over time. evening, goes along and holds the hand of that At the moment, many local authorities are best at person, helps him through and keeps that relatively stepping in and supporting schools that are in small institution afloat. What support will there be challenging circumstances or where they are in to stop a currently outstanding school like that, one category. If more and more schools—primaries and that enjoys its freedom with the curriculum and is secondaries—go down the academies route, there perhaps using it positively,falling over under the new will be a critical mass issue, and the local authority regime if the support accountant, for example, is no will no longer have specialists who have the longer in a position to give up his Wednesday knowledge of schools to be able to say, “Actually, evenings to help out? this school is failing or this school is beginning to fall Michael Gove: I would first question one of the over.” In my experience, very often the first people premises in your question. You describe a scenario who identify that a school, even an outstanding one, that would worry anyone. There are lots of schools is beginning to wobble, are the finance people. If you in special measures, primary schools in particular have a very large surplus budget or a deficit budget, difficulties or with a notice to improve, in local there are clearly issues. Those people will no longer authority areas. The existence of a local authority, be there, so where are the people who will identify even with gifted officers and committed lead that a school is beginning to wobble and we need to members, does not insulate a school from the risk of step in? Have those things been clearly thought out? failure. Some schools, including primary schools, Michael Gove: I take your view, but I think that we have been in special measures or with a notice to take a slightly different view of local authorities and improve for quite some time. It is not the case that of the calibre of professionals. I have been struck by when there is a catastrophic series of events— the fact that the people who lead schools—head something that can hit any school—the local teachers—are overwhelmingly strong, are doing a authority suddenly rides to the rescue. Such better job than ever and are eager to take on those problems exist anyway. There were a number of primary schools did exercise grant-maintained additional responsibilities. They do so with a status—one of them, I think, was Thomas Roper in profound sense of moral purpose and a Kent—that are very eager to take advantage of determination to do better for the children in their academy freedoms now. That school, like so many care. You are right that there should be warning primary schools, did not experience difficulties. mechanisms, but one of the things about local Many worries of the sort you mentioned were raised authorities’ current role is that in some cases local in 1988, but they did not come about. They could authorities act as monopoly or near-monopoly do—you are right—but one of the striking things is providers of education. One important principle of that those primary school heads who were most public service reform is that we should always have anxious to acquire academy freedoms are the people a way of challenging monopolies, generating who acknowledge that if things go wrong and certain innovation and showing that there are new and warning signs flash, it is legitimate for the local better ways of doing things. One of the reasons why authority to say,“Look here. We were very happy for I thought the academies movement was so good, and this school to acquire additional freedoms, but we why Lord Adonis was so right to support it, is that can now see, through staff turnover or a drop in it introduced into areas such as County Durham— results, or through, for the sake of argument, the where they are seeking to introduce it—a different number of permanent or fixed-term exclusions, that way of teaching and organising schools that there are warning signs. Let’s either trigger an Ofsted challenges the underperformance that has been there inspection, which can lead to certain results, or let’s in the past. I think we would both accept that have the local authority play a particular role.” The educational outcomes for children in County conversation that I am having with local authorities Durham are not what they should be. We need to ask tomorrow is part of the process of making sure that ourselves, “What can we do to lever in innovation we have an appropriate division of responsibilities. from outside and encourage some of the great One of the things that the previous but one Prime teachers and great head teachers, in County Durham Minister, Tony Blair, said, which I think is right, is and elsewhere, to play a greater role in driving that if local authorities see themselves as champions improvement?” The final thing is that part of the of excellence overall and as commissioners of conversation I wanted to have with local authorities education, and if they encourage a mix of provision is to concentrate on an appropriate division of in their area, they are less proprietorial and defensive responsibilities. Where do they feel that they can step about schools that may fail, and more determined to back and allow schools a bigger role, and where do play a part in ensuring that all schools succeed. I they believe that their intervention powers critically actually think that a diversity of provision at need to be retained? The only way that we can arrive primary level means that local authorities are more at that is through a robust conversation between the Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 15

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Department, schools that want a greater degree of what we see. What we find is that it is really quite— freedom and local authorities—elected members not selective, but exclusive. If you are a child with and officers. special needs you have very little chance of getting in there and if you happen to sneak under the door I think that you would be out very quickly. I am Q49 Pat Glass: I don’t disagree with what you are talking about disadvantaged children such as saying about the role of the local authority. They are looked-after children, children with SEN and there to set the strategy,allocate funding in a fair way children who live in poverty. Are you absolutely and monitor performance, and many local convinced that academies and free schools will authorities go well beyond that. However, I am advantage and not disadvantage these children? afraid you have not convinced me that you have a Michael Gove: I am totally convinced. We can have a mechanism for when things go wrong. I think you conversation about the Emmanuel CTC later. More will need to think about that carefully. Moving on— broadly, the thing about academies is that even I intend to be brief, because I know we do not have though they have a higher rate of exclusion, if you a great deal of time—a lot of concern was expressed compare them with maintained schools, the in all parts of the House about the speed at which the proportion of children who have SEN who are Academies Bill went through. A lot of concessions excluded from academies is lower. But more broadly, were made along the way and the Minister who took absolutely I am convinced. In conversation with it through took account of the concerns that were Miss Leslie, I have been struck by the success of raised—that was valuable. Given that, are you charter schools in America in transforming the absolutely convinced—and I will not ask you about achievement of poorer children. I have been inspired every pupil, because I know you cannot be by the way in which teachers in this country want to convinced—that children who are in disadvantaged use these new powers to set up schools—people like groups will not be further disadvantaged by these Mark Lehain in Bedford—in areas where there have changes in education? traditionally been low levels of aspiration. There is a Michael Gove: Not only am I convinced that they group of fantastic British Afro-Caribbean teachers will not be further disadvantaged, but I am in south-east London who want to set up their own convinced that they will benefit from these changes. school specifically to deal with attainment. There is The reason that we are introducing these reforms is an article on The Guardian’s “comment is free” specifically to address the fundamental problems website from a future leader, a teacher who wants to that we have with lack of opportunity in so many set up a school specifically to address disadvantage. areas. Before Ken Baker made his changes, there was There is a young Muslim alumnus of Teach First, a lot of criticism. He introduced city technology Sajid Hussain, who wants to set up a school in colleges—the forerunners, essentially,for academies. Bradford, the city in which he was born, in order to He introduced schools which were explicitly socially address attainment. These are people whom our comprehensive, in areas of deprivation—mostly legislation is empowering to make a difference for working-class areas of our country. These schools the very poorest. More broadly, one thing about are now phenomenal schools. For example, children autonomy overall is that it gives the profession a who are eligible for free school meals in these schools bigger role and a bigger say. I believe that people go are performing above the national average when it into teaching because they want to transform the comes to GCSE. There is a school which I imagine lives of young people. Following on from Tessa’s some of Ian’s constituents go to. Emmanuel College question earlier, I have been so impressed by the CTC is a superb school and one of the striking things idealism of people within the teaching profession is that it has raised attainment and aspiration in the that I think that any move that gives them more area to such an extent that Gateshead, as an power and more control cannot but work in the educational authority,now has better outcomes than interests of our young people. Newcastle. The striking thing is this: why is Gateshead, with a similar demographic and set of challenges, doing so much better than Newcastle? Q51 Pat Glass: Mr Bell, you are responsible for One reason is that there has been a school run by guidance, advice and warning to the Secretary of visionary leadership, with a great head teacher, State. Given your background as an ex-head teacher operating independently from local authority and a director of education, may I ask you the same control, helping the local authority, which has been question? Are you convinced that disadvantaged well led—the former director of children’s services children will not be further disadvantaged by was, of course, Maggie Atkinson—to raise its game academies, free schools and so on? as well. So it is a virtuous circle. David Bell: Yes I am, precisely for the reasons that Ian Mearns: The former chair of education, Ian the Secretary of State has identified. I also have quite Mearns. [Laughter.] You did mention visionary an interesting perspective on this because I became a leadership. head teacher just at the time that the Education Michael Gove: I was going to say that that was the Reform Act was being introduced. Throughout my critical factor, but I think all of these work together. career since then I have always believed that the more power you devolve to the level of the individual school, the more likely you are to get the best Q50 Pat Glass: May I respond to that, Minister, and outcomes for the children and young people say that your faith in CTCs is touching? However, concerned. Picking up what the Secretary of State living quite close to that particular school, that is not said, head teachers and teachers seem to me to be in Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 16 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell the main consumed by a moral purpose to do good coercion argument comes in. My view is that that is by those they serve. It seems to me that this is permissive, so I do not have a one-size-fits-all another chance to allow those sorts of opportunity approach. Some outstanding schools will want to to be available to a wider range of people. I am very remain local authority-maintained schools, which is excited, watching this, as it were, from the centre, fantastic. The whole point is to give people the about how we are going to further improve our opportunity. Some schools will think about going education system. academy, and the local authority will say, “Oh, actually we should give them a better deal,” so the Q52 Pat Glass: Secretary of State, I am sorry but this prospect of schools acquiring those freedoms will is a bit of special pleading and I will be very quick. compel the local authority to do a better job. That is One of the schools in my constituency falls into the the principle of contestability. Some schools will use “in discussion” category. I have written and I have the freedoms not because they want to liberate asked for meetings but I have had nothing back. So I themselves from local authority control, but because am just asking you directly today: will you make sure they want to take advantage of the freedoms, which that that meeting takes place? the Chairman of the Select Committee noted were so Michael Gove: I am so sorry that you have not had beneficial in his minority report in the last a chance to have a meeting. I have had the Parliament, and free themselves from the National opportunity to meet a number of colleagues who Curriculum. It might have nothing to do with the have had schools in discussion. I look forward to our local authority but everything to do with not liking chatting more about that. what the Government say about the curriculum. In terms of helping weaker schools, we will use a variety of criteria to make a judgment, but one thing that we Q53 Tessa Munt: I absolutely accept the stripping have not yet discussed, although we might do so down in local authorities, particularly in the later, is attainment tables and public accountability. financial circumstances which most of my rural One point on which I am very clear is that we need companions and neighbours would say place the to maintain clear public accountability and to be local authority in fairly serious difficulties. What I sure that both primary and secondary schools are would say to you is that your criticism of BSF as judged on how well students do in externally set and being a blanket approach to the repair of school marked exams. buildings, not taking account of need, seems to have a parallel in your desire to put academy status on to schools. To me, academy status was brought in to Q54 Liz Kendall: I want to ask a couple of brief deal with those schools that are in areas of questions on free schools. How many expressions of deprivation and schools that needed to be brought interest in free schools have you had? up. What you are doing, I think, is muddling the Michael Gove: We have had a great many, and the brand completely by dolloping it on to those who are number is growing all the time. Many people have outstanding. There is a mitigation in the fact that expressed an interest to us, and many, having you want to make sure that they straddle to a school expressed an interest to the Department, have gone that is not doing quite so well, so you are dolloping on to work with the New Schools Network or them in with the good school as well, but I don’t another organisation that is equipped to provide understand why there is not a desire to go straight them with support. into those schools that are struggling. I accept the point that my county council will not have that Q55 Liz Kendall: Do you have a view on how many expertise, because that expertise will probably move there will be by the end of this financial year? into the academy schools, which will defend their Michael Gove: No. We are creating an environment financial position and their new status. I also do not in which people can express an interest and take it understand how you will judge academies for the forward. The whole point of the legislation is to performance of the struggling schools that they will move away from what the Prime Minister once come together with. That is the wrong way. called dartboard politics. Chair: A brief and focused answer please, Secretary of State. Q56 Liz Kendall: I understand. On 20 April you Michael Gove: There are several challenging points stated in an e-mail exchange with Richard Garner of there to address. On the question of muddling the The Independent that, “we’ve budgeted to provide brand, in a way the brand manager is Andrew capital costs for around 20,000 new places a year, or Adonis, who coined academies. He dealt with that between 50 and 100 schools . . . This is in line with point in the House of Lords when he said that he growth of the “free” and “charter” school sectors in believed that schools that are autonomous of local Sweden and the US . . . The capital cost will come authority control should all be called academies. I from reducing spending on the Government’s defer to him in this matter. Andrew’s colleague, Tony extremely wasteful Building Schools for the Future Blair, argued explicitly in 2005 that academy programme by 15%.” Is your position still that you freedom should be extended to all schools, and it is. will fund the new free school building from BSF? We recognise that there are outstanding schools that Michael Gove: No, it isn’t. could acquire and benefit from those freedoms and use them to benefit other schools early on, and we want as many schools as possible to take on those Q57 Liz Kendall: When did you change your mind powers if they wish to do so. That is where the about that? Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

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28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Michael Gove: I changed my mind when we came Harlem, which is an area of deprivation that I am into government. Once I had had an opportunity to sure ranks with Leicester, buildings that the local look at the capital position that we had inherited, I authority there would never have thought could decided that the most important thing we could do become schools have become schools. There is was reform Building Schools for the Future and probably a philosophical difference between us. The ensure that, when it came to supporting the view that you developed and articulated so well establishment of free schools, the capital costs, most during the course of the election campaign, in of which I anticipate—we cannot know—will be government and so on has been that the state should used for refurbishing buildings, rather than building do more, prescribe and dictate. My view is that there new ones, should come from another budgetary line. is a huge amount of potential, creativity and That is why I announced that we would use some of inspiration out there. We have seen other countries the money that currently goes to ICT through the that are committed to social cohesion and greater harnessing technology fund. equality—countries such as Sweden, or countries where a President such as Barack Obama is Q58 Liz Kendall: I understand that the money to committed to helping the very poorest—using this fund capital expenditure on free schools until 31 money to provide people with transformed March 2011 is £50 million, as was stated in the educational opportunities. The striking thing about Department’s press release of 18 June. Even if the Sweden is that when it introduced the free school cost of building a school, which was around £20 legislation, it did not have a separate pot of capital million to £30 million under BSF, were halved, as in funding. In fact, it only had 85% of revenue funding, Ireland, how many schools could you build for that? but even on that basis, a number of new schools were Michael Gove: As I said in my earlier answer, I don’t established. We have actually been more generous in imagine we will be building wholly new schools on our initial provision than governments have in other greenfield sites. That is one of the most expensive countries. I would advise you to stand back and ways of providing new schools. One of the striking watch inspirational teachers, whether in Leicester or things about free schools in Sweden and charter elsewhere, who are committed to using new schools in America is that they often make buildings in an imaginative way, help to lever up imaginative use—more imaginative than politicians what I know you would acknowledge has been the can conceive of—of existing buildings. For example, poor level of educational performance in your I visited a free school just outside Stockholm in a otherwise beautiful city. converted observatory that the university no longer required. One of the reasons why the capital review Q61 Lisa Nandy: I shall be very quick, as the and the Department for Communities and Local Chairman is glaring at me, and he is very close. I am Government are looking at changing use class interested in the advice that is provided to groups orders, building regulations and other planning rules that are interested in setting up schools. I want to ask is specifically in order to bring the costs down, and several questions. First, did you take the decision to organisations such as Kunskapsskolan have made it award the contracts for that advice to the New clear to me that if they were to establish new schools Schools Network? Secondly, are you aware of who here, they would use their model of converting else provides funding to the New Schools Network? existing buildings, which can deliver schools at a Thirdly, have you personally had any contact with much cheaper cost. any of the donors who provide funding to the New Schools Network? Q59 Liz Kendall: I understand, but what is the Michael Gove: The New Schools Network was the average cost per converted building? stand-out organisation. It had experience Michael Gove: It is significantly less than the cost of beforehand in providing support and advice to building a new school here, but I do not have the people, and it has organised a number of events to average cost to hand. which a variety of teachers, many of whom I have already mentioned here, have come along. Q60 Liz Kendall: I just want to finish this point. Obviously, if you are welcoming expressions of Q62 Lisa Nandy: Did you make that decision? interest from parents and teachers, it is important Michael Gove: Yes, I did. There are other that they know what money might be available to organisations that support school improvement. them, even if there are not any new builds. How Some, like the Specialist Schools and Academies much would it cost to refurbish a building such as an Trust, receive significantly more than the New observatory—not that there are many observatories Schools Network, so I took the decision that it was in some of the more deprived parts, certainly in my an appropriate organisation to which to give a grant. constituency? How many building conversions Before a grant was given, I asked for a business plan would you estimate could come out of that £50 to be produced so that we could know exactly how million by the end of March 2011? You must have a the money might be spent to ensure that the work rough idea, considering that, according to your was done. It is fair to say—the Permanent Secretary spokesperson in the House of Lords, you have had may say more—that the relationship between the 700 expressions of interest. New Schools Network and the Department has been Michael Gove: A great many expressions of interest fruitful and productive and that the Network has have been received by both the Department and the been able to do work that the Department would not New Schools Network. The striking thing is that in have been able to do with the same degree of speed Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 18 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell and depth. I do not know who all the other funders arbitrary limit on training be removed, so that we of the New Schools Network are, but I do know that can have more teacher training in the classroom. it has among its patrons, governors and trustees Sir Funnily enough, when I talked about teaching as a Geoffrey Owen, the former editor of the Financial craft, The Times Educational Supplement—favourite Times; Professor Julian Le Grand, an adviser to the reading in the Gove household every Friday last Government; Sally Morgan, again, a political morning—had a bit of a crack at me, saying, “Are secretary to Tony Blair; and Paul Marshall, a leading you conflating teaching with carpet fitting?” In a donor to the Liberal Democrats. Because the way, I was struck by that, because it reflected one of network is all-party—indeed, non-party—and the problems that we have as a society, which is that properly constituted as a charity, I presume that its we think that craft is somehow less worthy of respect funding is in accordance with charity law. There are than academic excellence. The point I want to make people whom I have met who will have given money is that teaching at its best actually combines both: a to the New Schools Network—I am sure of that. love of the life of the mind and an appreciation that How much they have given, and under what teaching is, in the truest sense of the word, a circumstances, I don’t know, but there are many vocation—something that you learn by doing and people I’ve met who have given money to the through practice. academies network. Chair: I’m sorry, Lisa. I’d be pleased if you could find other avenues to follow this up. Q65 Conor Burns: Without setting arbitrary figures or targets, do you have a timeline in your mind for Q63 Lisa Nandy: Could I just say that I have 15 how the movement from teacher training in colleges questions in on this that are overdue for answers, so to much more class-based training in centres of if you could get answers for me that would be excellence in very good school and classroom appreciated? environments will take place and how quickly? Michael Gove: I certainly will. Michael Gove: The Permanent Secretary and I are working on that with officials. We’re going to publish an education White Paper, God willing, in Q64 Conor Burns: Secretary of State, you said earlier the autumn, and that will be followed—again, Deo that one of your core objectives was to bring the best volente—by the publication of some more qualified and most talented and motivated teachers legislation. What I would like to do is lay out the into the classroom and that that would be the most broad vision that we have for education reform in transformational thing in education. With that in the autumn and to have a piece of legislation then, mind, what is your vision of the future of teacher that deals with it; then subsequently to have training? Could more teacher training be done in the legislation that deals with some of the specific classroom in excellent schools? Local authorities concerns that I have about problems with special such as Lambeth, for example, have 99% pass rate targets for newly qualified teachers coming into their educational needs, and some of the specific reforms schools; in fact, a few years ago, Lambeth actually that we need to make to legislation on child exceeded its target and got 100%. Can you tell us a protection as well; and then after that to try to bit about your vision for the future of teacher legislate as little as possible. It is critically important training? that we make some big changes early on and then Michael Gove: Yes. At the moment, there is an allow change to be driven from within the system insufficient number of great schools that want to rather than from Whitehall. take on more teachers to train and that are able to do so. There is an arbitrary rule that says that 85% of Q66 Craig Whittaker: You’ve mentioned today the the money that the Training and Development culture of collaboration with schools; you’ve talked Agency for Schools provides for teacher training about outstanding schools helping others. How does goes to teacher training colleges in effect, while only that fit in with the Government’s announcements 15% goes to school-based teacher training. We want last week that you are looking at removing the duty people who are as well qualified as possible on schools to co-operate through children’s trusts, contemplating going into teaching, which is why we back Teach First so generously. But I also believe the requirement for the local authorities to set up the that teaching is a craft—that some people who are trusts and the requirement for trusts to produce the academically gifted can be unsuitable to be teachers children’s plan? How do the two match? and that people with valuable experience outside Michael Gove: One of the things that I think is academic success can go on to become, and are, important is to recognise that you don’t get effective brilliant teachers. But you learn how to be a great collaboration through an over-bureaucratic and teacher by observing already existing great teachers prescriptive method—saying, “This is exactly how and, in turn, by being observed yourself. It is that you should engage with everyone else who cares process of peer review that helps drive up the quality about improving life for children”. I think I am right of teaching overall. For that reason, I have asked in saying—I am sure I’ll be corrected if I am wrong— that existing regulations that restrict the number of that a children’s trust was in place in Haringey at the hours that senior leaders—head teachers—can time of Baby Peter Connelly’s death; but anyone observe other teachers are removed, so that we have who read, as I have, the serious case reviews into his as much classroom observation as possible to death will know that the existence of a children’s encourage people. It is also why I have asked that the trust didn’t guarantee the level of collaboration Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 19

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell between doctors, police, lawyers and others that you that trust structures help with safeguarding most of really needed in order to improve outcomes for all. In the Khyra Ishaq SCR it is clear that the children. That’s why one of the other things that I’ve problem arose because you had a children’s services done—and have been anxious to do quickly—is department that was repeatedly alerted by the school to press ahead with the publication of serious to what was going wrong—not because a trust told case reviews. Yesterday, thanks to Birmingham’s the school but because of a very good head and Conservative-Liberal Democrat council collaborating deputy head who rang the alarm bell. But the with us, we had the first publication of a full serious children’s services department in particular—I don’t case review. The reason why I think it’s so important want to demonise social workers, but it was is that, before the general election, we were told by particular people within it—didn’t know what its the then Government, and by others, that this would full powers were and didn’t exercise those powers be a disaster for child protection; but the truth is that responsibly. The head and the deputy head, as I said, yesterday we saw a sort of X-ray picture of what can rang the alarm bell repeatedly. There were a number go wrong. As a result, Birmingham City Council and of occasions when appointments were missed. I others are committed to learning how to co-operate don’t think there is any bureaucratic structure that better. I think that rather than saying, “This is a could have ensured that people did their job, but prescribed method of co-operation that I will dictate now that we know what went wrong, rather than from the centre,” it is far better to say, “You’re people saying, “I’ve ticked that box, had this trust professionals; we trust you. These are some meeting or whatever,” people know that they’re examples of what’s gone wrong. You want to learn going to be judged on real outcomes for real from these. You want to examine your own systems. children. I think that is a step forward. The other We’ll have Ofsted to inspect, in order to make sure thing I was going to say in respect of schools that are that if there are things that you’ve put in place—and underperforming—not just in terms of attainment it’s your decision—that aren’t working, they can be but in terms of well-being—is that we’re cracking on held up to the light;” but as a general rule I think it’s with getting more schools that are underperforming more appropriate to say to the professionals, “You taken over by existing academy sponsors. On Tessa’s work out your own arrangements.” As the earlier point, the original impetus for the academies Permanent Secretary said earlier, head teachers, GPs programme is one that we want to add energy to. and others are more often than not guided by a The final thing that I would say is that because I’m moral purpose. They don’t need me or a bureaucrat so worried about safeguarding—because one in to tell them exactly how they should discharge their three local authorities that have been inspected so responsibilities. far when it comes to safeguarding have been found to be inadequate—we asked Professor Eileen Munro to lead a review of safeguarding. She has a Q67 Craig Whittaker: I completely understand what background in social work: a social worker herself, you are saying, but what process will be in place for a professor of social work now and a backer of the the schools that don’t get the collaboration? What publication of SCRs. The explicit aim of her review about the support for those under-achieving is to give social workers a greater degree of control, schools? What mechanism are we going to put in to trust them more and to trust their judgment more. place to make sure that they get swept up, and that One concern that I have had in the past is that social they don’t fail? workers have been a wee bit reticent about exercising Michael Gove: I am very concerned about those their judgment because they have valued the schools that are underachieving. There are two relationship with the parents over the interests of the things that I would say. The first is, as I mentioned child. Eileen is explicitly there in order to give social earlier, that we want to work with local authorities workers that support and the backing they need. The to work out the precise mechanisms that they need, final thing I would say about the publication of to challenge underperforming schools in their areas. serious case reviews is that when we have had child The second thing is— deaths in the past, the finger has often been pointed at social workers. I actually think once we publish Q68 Craig Whittaker: I am not particularly talking serious case reviews—we’re going to publish the Baby Peter ones in the autumn—we will see that about attainment at schools; I’m talking around there are some amazing and inspirational social some of the issues that would be discussed through workers whose efforts have been frustrated by other the children’s trust—safeguarding, for example. professionals who haven’t done their jobs as they Michael Gove: Again, there are two things I’d say should have done. I hope that the Munro review and there. The first is that, when it comes to the publication of SCRs will help us understand the safeguarding, the health White Paper makes it clear real difficulty that social workers face and give us a that part of the responsibility for safeguarding will greater degree of respect and understanding for be part of the responsibilities of the new health and their job. well-being boards that will be part of what county councils or unitary councils do. Improving safeguarding has been at the heart of what my Q69 Craig Whittaker: A final question about the five colleague Tim Loughton has been doing, and one of outcomes on the Every Child Matters agenda. How the things that we wanted to make changes on are we going to monitor those and drive those quickly; but my argument is that I am not convinced forward? Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 20 Education Committee: Evidence

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Michael Gove: I think the important thing about the Q71 Pat Glass: Right. Finally, I wanted to ask you five outcomes—I was discussing this with some about ContactPoint. I understand that the grant has colleagues earlier today. I was going to say that I now been cut for ContactPoint— wonder, if you asked Members of Parliament, “Can Michael Gove: Yes. you name the five outcomes for Every Child Pat Glass:—but that the statutory duty on local Matters?” how many Members of Parliament would authorities remains, and that redundancy notices are be able to recite them in the same way that we recite now going out for many of the staff who work in the Lord’s prayer at the beginning of the ContactPoint, many of whom are very highly parliamentary session. I don’t think many would. trained and have been specifically trained by Mr For the benefit of everyone here, they are: being Bell’s department. How do you see that operating, if healthy, staying safe, enjoying and achieving, local authorities no longer have the money and if the making a positive contribution and securing trained staff who are paid by that funding are going? economic well-being. As a statement of five things How are local authorities going to deliver on the that we’d like for children— statutory requirements around ContactPoint? Ian Mearns: Amen. Michael Gove: We’ve made it clear that we’re going Michael Gove: Exactly. They are unimpeachable— to move from a ContactPoint system, whereby every gospel, even. But the point I would make is that in a child is tagged and monitored, to a system that is way, they are what every teacher will want to do. I much more proportionate and better targeted. It’s haven’t met many teachers who say, “I want my my view that the investment that we make in children to be unhealthy,” “I’m going to put my information technology to ensure that children are children at risk,” “I’d like them to have a horrendous safe and looked after should be targeted on those time and fail at school,” or “I’d like them to be children who are at risk. I remember that, before the negative and unemployed.” Teachers naturally election, both the Liberal Democrats and the reflect those priorities. As a list, as Ian says, amen to Conservatives were committed, for very similar that, but I don’t think you need a massive reasons, to moving away from the ContactPoint bureaucratic superstructure to police it. What I do system. I had a conversation with Lord Laming, who think you need to do is give teachers a bit more is a great man; his contribution to child welfare is freedom to make it live in their own environment. greater than any contribution that I will ever be able The final thing that I would say is that sometimes to make. But I disagreed with him on ContactPoint. people say, “You really need to emphasise well- When I asked him why he had proposed it, he said being, because there’s too much emphasis sometimes that he had been impressed by other countries where on attainment.” I know where folk are coming from the state had details on every child, from birth all the when they say that, but my own view is that if you way through to 16. I thought that that was come from a working-class background, what you disproportionate. I think that what we need, and want is a school where you will be well taught and Tim Loughton is working with local authorities on where you will receive the qualifications that allow this, is an IT system that effectively flags those you to decide whether or not you’re going to get a good job, go on to college or pursue an children who come to the attention of the authorities apprenticeship. Actually, the single most important or services because there are particular needs, so that thing that a school can do is equip children with the we can concentrate our efforts on them. I have been qualifications and self-confidence to take control in struck by the fact that many of the people who have the future. Those schools which have high academic been engaging with the Munro review and many attainment are always schools where you have great people elsewhere agree with us that it is important extra-curricular activities, strong pastoral care and that we have that focus. I do not think that any local teachers who take an individual interest in how authority will be judged adversely by us for wanting children are doing. As I said, I’ve got no problems to move quickly towards that more proportionate with Every Child Matters as a list, but I do think it’s scheme. Certainly, I know that Tim Loughton is very important that we recognise that it should be policed anxious to use the expertise that has been built up in in a hands-off way. the new and more targeted approach that we want to Chair: Last question to you, Pat. take, which I also have to say is more respectful of civil liberties.

Q70 Pat Glass: I was struck, Secretary of State, by what you said right at the end—that high-achieving Q72 Pat Glass: May I add that I am not wedded to schools are always schools where children’s well- ContactPoint? I just wonder if it is not sensible at being is taken into account. I have to say that in my least to continue the grant for the staff, so that we do experience that is not always the case, and that not lose that expertise as you move on to a better actually some of the most high-achieving schools are system. the schools where there are the widest gaps between Michael Gove: I very much take your point. One of those who are achieving well and those who are the conversations that I had with Tim was about achieving not so well. So I think that I can take you ensuring that everything that we’ve learned, through around by the hand and show you many of those, if the process of helping to set up ContactPoint, is used you would like to go around. in the process of coming up with a better and more Michael Gove: A school where there is a huge gap in targeted scheme. So it’s very important. achievement is not a high-achieving school, in my Pat Glass: Redundancy notices are going out now. books. You need to act now. Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 21

28 July 2010 Rt Hon Michael Gove MP and David Bell

Michael Gove: I was going to say that with a more Michael Gove: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. proportionate scheme fewer people will necessarily If any Members had any points where I had be employed, but we do want to make good use of promised to write and I or the Permanent Secretary the expertise of those people who’ve got the most to have forgotten about them, if they would be kind contribute. enough to let me know I will seek to follow those Chair: Thank you. Damian, are you happy to—? points up. I am very grateful to you all for having Damian Hinds: I can let it go. this “after-school” lesson, which I’ve certainly Chair: Excellent. That was the right answer. benefited from. [Laughter.] Ian Mearns: It’s a club—an after-school club. Secretary of State and Permanent Secretary, thank Michael Gove: It’s a club. I hope that you all have a you very much for coming and giving evidence to us wonderful summer holiday and I look forward to this morning. seeing you again in September. Thank you very much.

Letter to the Chairman from the Rt Hon Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State, Department of Education Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address your Committee. I enjoyed meeting you and other members of the Committee and being able to discuss a wide range of issues. During my session, I said I would supply you and other members with the list of schools that applied to become academies. Many members were keen to see this information and I am pleased to attach to this letter a full list of those that have applied as of 6 August. You may also be interested to see the list of those that had applied as of 23 July. I will update the Committee in due course with details of those schools whose applications have been successful. August 2010

APPLICATIONS FROM MAINSTREAM SCHOOLS TO CONVERT TO ACADEMY STATUS AS OF 6 AUGUST 2010

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 3025406 Ashmole School Barnet Secondary 3024212 East Barnet School Barnet Secondary 3025401 Queen Elizabeth’s School, Barnet Barnet Secondary 3025404 St Michael’s Catholic Grammar School Barnet Secondary 3024215 The Compton School Barnet Secondary 3024009 The Ravenscroft School A Technology Barnet Secondary College 8004128 Norton Hill School (in federation with Bath and North East Somerset Secondary Somervale School) 8005401 Oldfield School Bath and North East Somerset Secondary 8003447 Trinity CofE VC Primary School Bath and North East Somerset Primary 8222014 Queen’s Park Lower School Bedford Primary 8225402 Sharnbrook Upper School (in federation with Bedford Secondary Lincroft Middle School, Harrold Priory Middle School and Margaret Beaufort Middle School) 3035403 Beths Grammar School Bexley Secondary 3034000 Bexley Grammar School Bexley Secondary 3034022 Erith School Bexley Secondary 3305411 Ninestiles School Birmingham Secondary 3502018 Lever Edge Primary School Bolton Primary 3503368 St Bede CofE Primary School Bolton Primary 3055418 Darrick Wood School Bromley Secondary 3055406 Kemnal Technology College (part of the Bromley Secondary Kemnal Trust) 8254504 Dr Challoner’s Grammar School Buckinghamshire Secondary 3812049 Greetland Primary School Calderdale Primary 3812056 Scout Road Primary School Calderdale Primary 8735203 Crosshall Infant School Cambridgeshire Primary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 22 Education Committee: Evidence

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 8735204 Crosshall Junior School Cambridgeshire Primary 8232217 Lark Rise Lower School Central Bedfordshire Primary 8954220 Brine Leas High School Cheshire East Secondary 8955401 Fallibroome High School Cheshire East Secondary 8954123 Sandbach High School and Sixth Form Cheshire East Secondary College 9082448 Sandy Hill Community Primary School Cornwall Primary 9085201 St Buryan Primary School Cornwall Primary 9082409 Trenance Infant School Cornwall Primary 9084154 Bodmin College Cornwall Secondary 3314800 The Coventry Blue Coat Church of England Coventry Secondary School and Music College 9095405 Dallam School Cumbria Secondary 9095401 Queen Elizabeth Grammar School Cumbria Secondary 9092130 Seaton Infant School Cumbria Primary 8315402 Chellaston Foundation School Derby Secondary 8782004 Broadclyst Community Primary School Devon Primary 8784184 Ivybridge Community College Devon Secondary 8785405 Uffculme School Devon Secondary 8404215 Shotton Hall School Durham Secondary 3082078 Cuckoo Hall Primary School Enfield Primary 3084015 Kingsmead School Enfield Secondary 8814001 Debden Park High School (part of the Essex Secondary Kemnal Trust) 8813832 Flitch Green Primary School Essex Primary 8814400 Honywood Community Science School Essex Secondary 8815264 R A Butler Junior School Essex Primary 8815263 R A Butler Infant School Essex Primary 8815415 King Harold School (part of the Kemnal Essex Secondary Trust) 8814420 Notley High School and Braintree Sixth Form Essex Secondary 8815410 Chelmsford County High School Essex Secondary 9165403 Pate’s Grammar School Gloucestershire Secondary 9164001 Sir Thomas Rich’s School Gloucestershire Secondary 9165410 The Cotswold School Gloucestershire Secondary 8054131 Dyke House Sports and Technology College Hartlepool Secondary 8844428 John Kyrle High School and Sixth Form Herefordshire Secondary Centre 9195427 Hockerill Anglo-European College Hertfordshire Secondary 9195405 The Bishop’s Stortford High School Hertfordshire Secondary 9194101 The Broxbourne School Hertfordshire Secondary 9195401 Watford Grammar School for Boys Hertfordshire Secondary 9195403 Watford Grammar School for Girls Hertfordshire Secondary 3124654 Guru Nanak Sikh Voluntary Aided Secondary Hillingdon Secondary School 3134027 Lampton School Hounslow Secondary 8864207 Castle Community College Kent Secondary 8863025 Chiddingstone CofE (VC) Primary School Kent Primary 8865406 Dartford Grammar School Kent Secondary 8865414 Fulston Manor School Kent Secondary 8864080 Highsted Grammar School Kent Secondary 8864092 Highworth Grammar School for Girls Kent Secondary 8862656 Meopham Community Primary School Kent Primary 8865463 Sandwich Technology School Kent Secondary 8865443 Tonbridge Grammar School Kent Secondary 8865421 The Canterbury High School (in federation Kent Secondary with The Canterbury Primary School) 8865455 The Hayesbrook School Kent Secondary 8865434 The Westlands School (in federation with The Kent Secondary Woodgrove Primary School) 8864046 Weald of Kent Grammar School Kent Secondary 8864031 Swanley Technology College (part of the Kent Secondary Kemnal Trust) 3825401 Heckmondwike Grammar School Kirklees Secondary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 23

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 2085207 Durand Primary School Lambeth Primary 2084322 Stockwell Park High School Lambeth Secondary 8884626 Bishop Rawstorne Church of England Lancashire Secondary Language College 8882040 Hambleton Primary School Lancashire Primary 8885402 Lancaster Girls’ Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 8885401 Lancaster Royal Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 8884010 Hodgson School Lancashire Secondary 8885403 Clitheroe Royal Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 3834112 Garforth Community College Leeds Secondary 3832396 Garforth Green Lane Primary School Leeds Primary 9253510 Bourne Abbey Church of England Primary Lincolnshire Primary School 9255418 Branston Community College Lincolnshire Secondary 9255406 Caistor Grammar School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255401 Queen Elizabeth’s Grammar School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255422 St Hugh’s CofE Mathematics and Computing Lincolnshire Secondary College (in federation with The Earl of Dysart Primary School, Grantham Spitalgate Primary School and Charles Read High School) 9255423 The Giles School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255415 William Farr Church of England Lincolnshire Secondary Comprehensive School 8214102 Challney High School For Boys & Luton Secondary Community College Foundation School 8214104 Denbigh High School Luton Secondary 3523040 Cheetham CofE Community School Manchester Primary 8874069 Fort Pitt Grammar School Medway Secondary 8875445 The Rochester Grammar School Medway Secondary 8262133 Eaton Mill Foundation Primary School Milton Keynes Primary 3914429 Gosforth High School (in federation with Newcastle upon Tyne Secondary Gosforth Junior High School) 9262006 Martham Foundation Primary School and Norfolk Primary Nursery 8124084 Healing School, A Specialist Science and North East Lincolnshire Secondary Foundation College 8124078 Tollbar Business Enterprise & Humanities North East Lincolnshire Secondary College 9285404 Northampton School for Boys Northamptonshire Secondary 9294168 Meadowdale Middle School Northumberland Secondary 8912921 Barnby Road Primary and Nursery school Nottinghamshire Primary 8915401 George Spencer Foundation School and Nottinghamshire Secondary Technology College 8914084 Redhill School Nottinghamshire Secondary 8914452 Tuxford School Nottinghamshire Secondary 8745417 Arthur Mellows Village College Peterborough Secondary 8704020 Highdown School and Sixth Form Centre Reading Secondary 8705401 Reading School Reading Secondary 8702031 Churchend Primary School Reading Primary 3175400 The Chadwell Heath Foundation School Redbridge Secondary 3174033 Valentines High School Redbridge Secondary 3724024 Brinsworth Comprehensive School Rotherham Secondary 3724025 Wales High School Rotherham Secondary 3344017 Arden School Solihull Secondary 3343313 St. Patrick’s C.E. Junior and Infant School Solihull Primary 3344014 Tudor Grange School Solihull Secondary 9334274 Holyrood Community School Somerset Secondary 9334259 Huish Episcopi School Somerset Secondary 9334583 The Kings of Wessex School Somerset Secondary 9333240 Weare Church of England First School Somerset Primary 3934605 Whitburn CofE School South Tyneside Secondary 8825206 The Westborough Primary School and Southend-on-Sea Primary Nursery 8825401 Westcliff High School for Boys Southend-on-Sea Secondary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 24 Education Committee: Evidence

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 2104265 Kingsdale Foundation School Southwark Secondary 2104318 The Charter School Southwark Secondary 8604176 De Ferrers Specialist Technology College Staffordshire Secondary 8604061 John Taylor High School Staffordshire Secondary 9352003 Forest Community Primary school Suffolk Primary 9354036 Hartismere School Suffolk Secondary 9354102 Samuel Ward Arts and Technology College Suffolk Secondary 9365221 Cleves School Surrey Primary 9365404 Glyn Technology School Surrey Secondary 9362479 South Farnham School Surrey Primary 8662212 Goddard Park Community Primary School Swindon Primary 3575400 Audenshaw School Tameside Secondary 8944364 Newport Girls’ High School Telford and Wrekin Secondary 8942181 Priorslee Primary School Telford and Wrekin Primary 8943358 St Matthew’s CE (Aided) Primary School Telford and Wrekin Primary 8834299 The Ockendon School Thurrock Secondary 8805401 Torquay Boys’ Grammar School Torbay Secondary 3585404 Altrincham Grammar School for Boys Trafford Secondary 3582005 Park Road Primary School, Timperley Trafford Primary 3585405 Urmston Grammar School Trafford Secondary 3584016 Wellacre Technology College Trafford Secondary 3585400 Wellington School Trafford Secondary 3844009 Wakefield City High School Wakefield Secondary 3355200 Park Hall Infant school Walsall Primary 3205400 Highams Park School Waltham Forest Secondary 3202018 Hillyfield Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 3202040 Roger Ascham Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 3202007 Yardley Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 2125405 Southfields Community College Wandsworth Secondary 9374112 The Polesworth School—A Specialist Warwickshire Secondary Language College 2134295 Quintin Kynaston School Westminster Secondary 8655414 Hardenhuish School Wiltshire Secondary 8682186 Lowbrook Primary School Windsor and Maidenhead Primary 3444018 Ridgeway High School Wirral Secondary 3444010 Prenton High School for Girls Wirral Secondary 8724053 Maiden Erlegh School Wokingham Secondary 8164500 Archbishop Holgate’s School York Secondary 8164602 Manor Church of England Voluntary Aided York Secondary School

Notes As of 6 August, there have been the following changes since 23 July. Fifteen applications, listed below, have been added. 9084154 Bodmin College Cornwall Secondary 3314800 The Coventry Blue Coat Church of England Coventry Secondary School and Music College 8815415 King Harold School (part of the Kemnal Essex Secondary Trust) 8814420 Notley High School and Braintree Sixth Form Essex Secondary 8815410 Chelmsford County High School Essex Secondary 8864031 Swanley Technology College (part of the Kent Secondary Kemnal Trust) 8865443 Tonbridge Grammar School Kent Secondary 8884010 Hodgson School Lancashire Secondary 8885403 Clitheroe Royal Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 8705401 Reading School Reading Secondary 8702031 Churchend Primary School Reading Primary 9374112 The Polesworth School—A Specialist Warwickshire Secondary Language College 2134295 Quintin Kynaston School Westminster Secondary 3444010 Prenton High School for Girls Wirral Secondary 8724053 Maiden Erlegh School Wokingham Secondary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 25

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase Of these fifteen two applications, listed below, are from non-outstanding schools which are members of a shared trust where an outstanding school in that shared trust has also applied. 8815415 King Harold School (part of the Kemnal Essex Secondary Trust) 8864031 Swanley Technology College (part of the Kent Secondary Kemnal Trust) One school, listed below, has withdrawn its application. 9192132 Cassiobury Junior School Hertfordshire Primary

APPLICATIONS FROM MAINSTREAM SCHOOLS TO CONVERT TO ACADEMY STATUS AS OF 23 JULY 2010

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 3025406 Ashmole School Barnet Secondary 3024212 East Barnet School Barnet Secondary 3025401 Queen Elizabeth’s School, Barnet Barnet Secondary 3025404 St Michael’s Catholic Grammar School Barnet Secondary 3024215 The Compton School Barnet Secondary 3024009 The Ravenscroft School A Technology Barnet Secondary College 8004128 Norton Hill School (in federation with Bath and North East Somerset Secondary Somervale School) 8005401 Oldfield School Bath and North East Somerset Secondary 8003447 Trinity CofE VC Primary School Bath and North East Somerset Primary 8222014 Queen’s Park Lower School Bedford Primary 8225402 Sharnbrook Upper School (in federation with Bedford Secondary Lincroft Middle School, Harrold Priory Middle School and Margaret Beaufort Middle School) 3035403 Beths Grammar School Bexley Secondary 3034000 Bexley Grammar School Bexley Secondary 3034022 Erith School Bexley Secondary 3305411 Ninestiles School Birmingham Secondary 3502018 Lever Edge Primary School Bolton Primary 3503368 St Bede CofE Primary School Bolton Primary 3055418 Darrick Wood School Bromley Secondary 3055406 Kemnal Technology College (part of the Bromley Secondary Kemnal Trust) 8254504 Dr Challoner’s Grammar School Buckinghamshire Secondary 3812049 Greetland Primary School Calderdale Primary 3812056 Scout Road Primary School Calderdale Primary 8735203 Crosshall Infant School Cambridgeshire Primary 8735204 Crosshall Junior School Cambridgeshire Primary 8232217 Lark Rise Lower School Central Bedfordshire Primary 8954220 Brine Leas High School Cheshire East Secondary 8955401 Fallibroome High School Cheshire East Secondary 8954123 Sandbach High School and Sixth Form Cheshire East Secondary College 9082448 Sandy Hill Community Primary School Cornwall Primary 9085201 St Buryan Primary School Cornwall Primary 9082409 Trenance Infant School Cornwall Primary 9095405 Dallam School Cumbria Secondary 9095401 Queen Elizabeth Grammar School Cumbria Secondary 9092130 Seaton Infant School Cumbria Primary 8315402 Chellaston Foundation School Derby Secondary 8782004 Broadclyst Community Primary School Devon Primary 8784184 Ivybridge Community College Devon Secondary 8785405 Uffculme School Devon Secondary 8404215 Shotton Hall School Durham Secondary 3082078 Cuckoo Hall Primary School Enfield Primary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 26 Education Committee: Evidence

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 3084015 Kingsmead School Enfield Secondary 8814001 Debden Park High School (part of the Essex Secondary Kemnal Trust) 8813832 Flitch Green Primary School Essex Primary 8814400 Honywood Community Science School Essex Secondary 8815264 R A Butler Junior School Essex Primary 8815263 R A Butler Infant School Essex Primary 9165403 Pate’s Grammar School Gloucestershire Secondary 9164001 Sir Thomas Rich’s School Gloucestershire Secondary 9165410 The Cotswold School Gloucestershire Secondary 8054131 Dyke House Sports and Technology College Hartlepool Secondary 8844428 John Kyrle High School and Sixth Form Herefordshire Secondary Centre 9195427 Hockerill Anglo-European College Hertfordshire Secondary 9195405 The Bishop’s Stortford High School Hertfordshire Secondary 9194101 The Broxbourne School Hertfordshire Secondary 9192132 Cassiobury Junior School Hertfordshire Primary 9195401 Watford Grammar School for Boys Hertfordshire Secondary 9195403 Watford Grammar School for Girls Hertfordshire Secondary 3124654 Guru Nanak Sikh Voluntary Aided Secondary Hillingdon Secondary School 3134027 Lampton School Hounslow Secondary 8864207 Castle Community College Kent Secondary 8863025 Chiddingstone CofE (VC) Primary School Kent Primary 8865406 Dartford Grammar School Kent Secondary 8865414 Fulston Manor School Kent Secondary 8864080 Highsted Grammar School Kent Secondary 8864092 Highworth Grammar School for Girls Kent Secondary 8862656 Meopham Community Primary School Kent Primary 8865463 Sandwich Technology School Kent Secondary 8865421 The Canterbury High School (in federation Kent Secondary with The Canterbury Primary School) 8865455 The Hayesbrook School Kent Secondary 8865434 The Westlands School (in federation with The Kent Secondary Woodgrove Primary School) 8864046 Weald of Kent Grammar School Kent Secondary 3825401 Heckmondwike Grammar School Kirklees Secondary 2085207 Durand Primary School Lambeth Primary 2084322 Stockwell Park High School Lambeth Secondary 8884626 Bishop Rawstorne Church of England Lancashire Secondary Language College 8882040 Hambleton Primary School Lancashire Primary 8885402 Lancaster Girls’ Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 8885401 Lancaster Royal Grammar School Lancashire Secondary 3834112 Garforth Community College Leeds Secondary 3832396 Garforth Green Lane Primary School Leeds Primary 9253510 Bourne Abbey Church of England Primary Lincolnshire Primary School 9255418 Branston Community College Lincolnshire Secondary 9255406 Caistor Grammar School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255401 Queen Elizabeth’s Grammar School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255422 St Hugh’s CofE Mathematics and Computing Lincolnshire Secondary College (in federation with The Earl of Dysart Primary School, Grantham Spitalgate Primary School and Charles Read High School) 9255423 The Giles School Lincolnshire Secondary 9255415 William Farr Church of England Lincolnshire Secondary Comprehensive School 8214102 Challney High School For Boys & Luton Secondary Community College Foundation School 8214104 Denbigh High School Luton Secondary 3523040 Cheetham CofE Community School Manchester Primary 8874069 Fort Pitt Grammar School Medway Secondary 8875445 The Rochester Grammar School Medway Secondary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [O] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Education Committee: Evidence Ev 27

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 8262133 Eaton Mill Foundation Primary School Milton Keynes Primary 3914429 Gosforth High School (in federation with Newcastle upon Tyne Secondary Gosforth Junior High School) 9262006 Martham Foundation Primary School and Norfolk Primary Nursery 8124084 Healing School, A Specialist Science and North East Lincolnshire Secondary Foundation College 8124078 Tollbar Business Enterprise & Humanities North East Lincolnshire Secondary College 9285404 Northampton School for Boys Northamptonshire Secondary 9294168 Meadowdale Middle School Northumberland Secondary 8912921 Barnby Road Primary and Nursery school Nottinghamshire Primary 8915401 George Spencer Foundation School and Nottinghamshire Secondary Technology College 8914084 Redhill School Nottinghamshire Secondary 8914452 Tuxford School Nottinghamshire Secondary 8745417 Arthur Mellows Village College Peterborough Secondary 8704020 Highdown School and Sixth Form Centre Reading Secondary 3175400 The Chadwell Heath Foundation School Redbridge Secondary 3174033 Valentines High School Redbridge Secondary 3724024 Brinsworth Comprehensive School Rotherham Secondary 3724025 Wales High School Rotherham Secondary 3344017 Arden School Solihull Secondary 3343313 St. Patrick’s C.E. Junior and Infant School Solihull Primary 3344014 Tudor Grange School Solihull Secondary 9334274 Holyrood Community School Somerset Secondary 9334259 Huish Episcopi School Somerset Secondary 9334583 The Kings of Wessex School Somerset Secondary 9333240 Weare Church of England First School Somerset Primary 3934605 Whitburn CofE School South Tyneside Secondary 8825206 The Westborough Primary School and Southend-on-Sea Primary Nursery 8825401 Westcliff High School for Boys Southend-on-Sea Secondary 2104265 Kingsdale Foundation School Southwark Secondary 2104318 The Charter School Southwark Secondary 8604176 De Ferrers Specialist Technology College Staffordshire Secondary 8604061 John Taylor High School Staffordshire Secondary 9352003 Forest Community Primary school Suffolk Primary 9354036 Hartismere School Suffolk Secondary 9354102 Samuel Ward Arts and Technology College Suffolk Secondary 9365221 Cleves School Surrey Primary 9365404 Glyn Technology School Surrey Secondary 9362479 South Farnham School Surrey Primary 8662212 Goddard Park Community Primary School Swindon Primary 3575400 Audenshaw School Tameside Secondary 8944364 Newport Girls’ High School Telford and Wrekin Secondary 8942181 Priorslee Primary School Telford and Wrekin Primary 8943358 St Matthew’s CE (Aided) Primary School Telford and Wrekin Primary 8834299 The Ockendon School Thurrock Secondary 8805401 Torquay Boys’ Grammar School Torbay Secondary 3585404 Altrincham Grammar School for Boys Trafford Secondary 3582005 Park Road Primary School, Timperley Trafford Primary 3585405 Urmston Grammar School Trafford Secondary 3584016 Wellacre Technology College Trafford Secondary 3585400 Wellington School Trafford Secondary 3844009 Wakefield City High School Wakefield Secondary 3355200 Park Hall Infant school Walsall Primary 3205400 Highams Park School Waltham Forest Secondary 3202018 Hillyfield Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 3202040 Roger Ascham Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 3202007 Yardley Primary School Waltham Forest Primary 2125405 Southfields Community College Wandsworth Secondary 8655414 Hardenhuish School Wiltshire Secondary 8682186 Lowbrook Primary School Windsor and Maidenhead Primary Processed: 26-10-2010 14:13:35 Page Layout: COENEW [E] PPSysB Job: 005600 Unit: PAG1

Ev 28 Education Committee: Evidence

DfE Number Name of School Name of LA Phase 3444018 Ridgeway High School Wirral Secondary 8164500 Archbishop Holgate’s School York Secondary 8164602 Manor Church of England Voluntary Aided York Secondary School

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