Tuesday Volume 565 25 June 2013 No. 23

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 25 June 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 143 25 JUNE 2013 144

Mr Osborne: Gross lending to businesses is up under House of Commons the scheme, but I am happy to agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is an issue—let us be honest, there Tuesday 25 June 2013 has been an issue since 2008-09—with the contraction of bank lending to businesses in our communities. That is why we are taking further steps in two respects. First, The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock with the Bank of England, we are extending the scope of the funding for lending scheme. It has proved very effective at getting mortgage rates down, and now we PRAYERS need to reduce the rates for small businesses. Secondly, we are sorting out the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the largest lender to small businesses in our country.

BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Mark Tami: The Government claim to have established a business investment bank. How is it doing, and how many businesses has it actually lent money to? LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] Mr Osborne: The business bank, which was established Consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and deferred last year, is now making loans to the funds that will lend until Tuesday 2 July (Standing Order No. 20). to small businesses, creating non-bank lending channels. [Interruption.] There was no business bank under the HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (FILMING ON Labour Government. I will tell the House what we had HIGHWAYS)BILL [LORDS] (BYORDER) instead: we had a socking great banking crash under the Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 2 Labour Government, and the person sitting opposite, July (Standing Order No. 20). the shadow Chancellor, was City Minister when it happened. We are cleaning up the mess from one of the biggest financial crises in the country’s history by ensuring that Oral Answers to Questions it never happens again. Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): May I say to my right hon. Friend that after a lifetime as a TREASURY stockbroker and fund manager, my instinct, as bond yields rise all over the world, is that we are heading for The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— another banking crisis that will certainly choke off the already inadequate lending of banks to small businesses? Bank Lending May I put on the record my dismay that he has not yet committed himself to the total separation of investment from commercial banks, which I have been urging on 1. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): What recent him ever since he became Chancellor? I am absolutely assessment he has made of the effect on economic growth convinced that if we do not go back to something of the level of bank lending to businesses. [161218] approaching Glass-Steagall, it will be an absolute disaster 11. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): What when the next banking crisis hits us. recent assessment he has made of the effect on economic growth of the level of bank lending to businesses. Mr Osborne: Of course, I respect my right hon. [161228] Friend’s experience. A powerful argument has been made that we should completely separate and split up The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): retail banks from investment banks. We asked John The Government are committed to creating a banking Vickers to convene a commission to look at this specific system that supports the British economy, rather than subject, and he came forward with proposals to ring-fence being supported by it. Two months ago, the Government retail banking, as he thought that that would be a better and the Bank of England extended the funding for approach. We also set up a cross-party parliamentary lending scheme, with a particular focus on small business commission to consider the ring fence, and it thinks lending. Last week, the Office of Fair Trading announced that the ring fence is the best approach. It made a its review into how to make that lending more competitive, specific recommendation that we should give the regulator and at the Mansion House, I announced a plan for the power to split up a bank that had refused to comply taxpayer shareholdings in RBS and Lloyds that will with the ring fence, and we are giving the regulator— return these banks fully to the private sector, get value [Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor shakes his head, for the taxpayer and support the economy. but again not one of these things was done when he was City Minister. Let me say to him again, because he Simon Danczuk: Last Monday, I met businesses at obviously does not understand, that we are giving the Greater Manchester chamber of commerce and heard regulator a specific power to split retail from investment how banks were often failing them, thereby having an banking in a bank that is ignoring the ring fence. I think adverse impact on business performance. Does the that that is the right way forward. Chancellor accept that bank lending to businesses has fallen over the past year and that the Government’s Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): In the Treasury funding for lending scheme has totally failed businesses Committee this morning, the Governor of the Bank of in Greater Manchester and the United Kingdom? England expressed considerable concern that unacceptable 145 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 146 pressure had been brought to bear on the Prudential us to get on with this. If we had created a public inquiry, Regulation Authority from within Government, both as Labour recommended, it would only just be getting from No. 10 and from No. 11, at the behest of the banks, going now. Instead, Parliament has done what it is putting at risk the regulator’s independence. Will the supposed to do, which is to investigate a problem and Chancellor reassure the House that he knew nothing provide recommendations, and we are going to debate about this, that he was not personally involved, that he those recommendations here. will investigate the allegation that others did bring unacceptable pressure to bear, and that he will report to Pensions Triple Lock Parliament? 2. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What Mr Osborne: Of course, if there is unacceptable assessment he has made of the effect of the pensions pressure, I absolutely say that that is not acceptable—if triple lock on pensioners. [161219] that is the right way to put it. The PRA, which we created, is completely independent and it has made its The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): independent decisions on capital in our banks. We The triple lock means that the level of the full basic also have the Financial Policy Committee, which again state pension is now £6.85 a week higher than it would is completely independent and able to make these have been if it had been uprated only by earnings since recommendations. We empower our regulators to do 2011-12. That equates to about £356 a year. The average their job. Of course, banks, consumer groups and anyone person reaching state pension age in 2013 with a full else can make their case, but this is ultimately an independent basic state pension can expect to receive an additional body, an independent regulator, that makes the judgment. £12,000 in basic state pension over their retirement, That is the system we have created. thanks to the triple lock.

Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Jason McCartney: Can my right hon. Friend confirm (Lab): The whole House agrees that we need to see more that the triple lock will prevent a repeat of the disgraceful lending to small businesses and a return of RBS and situation in which pensioners received a pension increase Lloyds to the private sector so that taxpayers can get of only 75p? their money back, yet two weeks since the Chancellor helped to remove Stephen Hester from RBS, the taxpayers’ Danny Alexander: I certainly can confirm that. Putting stake in the bank has fallen in value by £4 billion. Was in a floor of a 2.5% increase in the basic state pension that part of the plan? will prevent that disgraceful situation, and I can tell my hon. Friend that, thanks to the triple lock, the basic Mr Osborne: In case the hon. Lady had not noticed, state pension now represents a higher share of average stock markets around the world are down. Bank stocks earnings than at any time since 1992. are down— Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): And op): Let me be clear that we on the Opposition Benches RBS? do support the triple lock on pensions. However, at a time when our NHS and social care are under such Mr Osborne: RBS: the world’s largest bail-out, under pressure, why do the Government think it is a priority a Government who completely failed to regulate it. to continue to pay the winter fuel allowance to the How dare the right hon. Gentleman have the audacity richest 5% of pensioners? to come here and complain about the Royal Bank of Scotland? We are fixing the problems in the Royal Bank Danny Alexander: The hon. Lady says that Opposition of Scotland. We are looking at the case for establishing Members support the triple lock, but they did not a “bad bank”, which, as I said at the Mansion House, introduce it when they were in office. The shadow should have been done in 2008. We are going to fix the Chancellor wishes to include the basic state pension in mess in the banking system that Labour left behind. his short-term cap of welfare spending. Let me tell the Labour party what that might mean. Last year, the Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I welfare forecast increased by £2.3 billion; if the pension congratulate my right hon. Friend on setting up the had been included in the welfare cap, as the shadow Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Does Chancellor suggests, it would have meant freezing the he believe that implementing some of its recommendations basic state pension this year, not increasing it as planned. will help banks to lend? Will he urge the Leader of the That is what Labour really means on pensions. I am House to allocate time for a debate on this subject? certainly willing to look at the payment of winter allowance to wealthy pensioners; I am sure it will be a Mr Osborne: We will have plenty of time to debate matter to discuss at the next election. the recommendations of the parliamentary commission, which I think has done an absolutely excellent job for Small Businesses the House, by the way. We will shortly have the Report stage of the Banking Bill, at which the Government will 3. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): say how we intend to respond to those recommendations. What recent fiscal steps he has taken to support small If there is more work to be done on the drafting of businesses. [161220] specific amendments, those amendments can be tabled in the House of Lords and they will of course come 8. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): What back to the House of Commons as well. The whole recent fiscal steps he has taken to support small purpose of the parliamentary commission was to enable businesses. [161225] 147 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 148

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): 1980s and there are over 1 million new jobs in the Three years ago, I cut the small companies tax rate; this private sector. And we will bring before Parliament new year, I have taken a number of further steps to support legislation to make sure that the first few thousand small businesses, including the new £2,000 employment pounds of their national insurance bill is completely allowance, which will reduce small businesses’ tax bill. wiped out—they will not have to pay it at all. That is a Up to 1.25 million businesses will benefit, with about real success story, and if the Opposition want to vote a third of all employers taken out of paying employer against it, they can be my guest. national insurance contributions altogether. We have also increased the annual investment allowance tenfold Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Finance this year from £25,000 to £250,000. This directly helps and credit are the lifeblood of small businesses. The small and medium-sized businesses looking to invest in Government have been pumping money into the banking the future. sector, so what is the Chancellor doing to ensure that that money goes to small businesses rather than to Sheryll Murray: Small businesses in South East Cornwall repair bank balance sheets? welcome the measures that the Chancellor has already introduced. It has taken some of them to a position Mr Osborne: Of course, as we discussed earlier, the where they can expand, but they have been applying capital position of the banks is important, but the and waiting for grant funding for a considerable time. funding for lending scheme is now focused on small Will my right hon. Friend speak to his Cabinet colleagues business lending. I know that there is a particular issue to ensure that decisions are taken as soon as possible to with the very tough situation that the banking sector allow these businesses to grow and to avoid missed faces in Northern Ireland and the problems from the opportunities? Irish Republic that have spilled over into Northern Mr Osborne: I thank my hon. Friend for her work on Ireland. One thing we are doing with the Royal Bank of the Finance Bill, which she put huge effort into. I know Scotland is looking specifically at Ulster and the issues she is passionate about her constituents and the businesses surrounding some of the bad loans made in the past, of Cornwall. The Department for Environment, Food and at how we can help that bank to make good loans in and Rural Affairs has already given £7 million in rural the future to help the businesses of Northern Ireland. development grants to her constituency. She has raised We are specifically supporting the Northern Irish economy some specific cases; a company that makes Cornish Blue and we are aware of its problems. has been waiting for what I think is an unacceptable period for an answer from another Government Department Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Does my about a grant. I will personally look into this matter right hon. Friend agree that extending rate relief to a and see if we can speed the award. further half a million small businesses will help many of them in the constituencies of Southend West and Rochford George Freeman: In the £50 billion UK life science and Southend East? industry, the Chancellor’s support for the patent box, the research and development tax credits and a globally Mr Osborne: Small business rate relief has helped competitive corporation tax rate are helping to secure many small firms to cope with the cost of rates, and we global companies here, as evidenced by Johnson & Johnson’s have been able to extend it year after year. We will have recent announcement of a global innovation centre to make a decision later in this Parliament about a here in the UK. Does he also agree that we need to further extension, but there is clear evidence that the support insurgent small and medium-sized enterprises current extension is doing a great deal of good. emerging into the sector? I would like to highlight the role of the biomedical catalyst fund in securing over Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The main 50 projects for the UK and £1 billion in venture capital complaint from businesses throughout the country, both funding. small and large, is that they do not feel they are receiving the support that they need from the banking sector. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend’s knowledge in this Given that state-owned banks are among the poorest in area is well known, and he has applied it as a Member terms of lending, what is Jeffrey—sorry, the Chancellor of Parliament to promoting schemes that help the life of the Exchequer—doing about it? sciences industry—and not just the big companies, although we welcome the Johnson & Johnson announcement, but the small companies, too. The biomedical catalyst Mr Osborne: As I said earlier, the Royal Bank of fund has been very successful at supporting small businesses Scotland is the largest lender to small businesses in our in this sector. Without giving too much away about country. That is why it is such an important support for tomorrow’s announcements, I can tell him that we will the economy. We are taking a serious look at how we go on funding this scheme. can enable it to move on from all the bad loans—all the bad bets that it laid—during the middle years of the last Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Can the Chancellor decade, when, by the way, the shadow Chancellor, who tell us how many firms have been helped by his small is still muttering from a sedentary position, was City firms national insurance holiday since it started three Minister. years ago, given that he claimed it would help 400,000 Surely it is in all our interests to try to sort out the firms? banking problem, but I have no idea whether Labour Members support our proposal on the Royal Bank of Mr Osborne: About 20,000 firms have been helped— Scotland. We have heard absolutely nothing from them. [Interruption.] Well, 20,000 firms have been helped, However, what we are doing shows that we are actually small business creation is at the highest level since the confronting the problems that we inherited. 149 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 150

Living Costs (Personal Allowance) VAT; then they said they were against VAT. Last week they said that they would not change VAT; now the 4. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What assessment he shadow Chancellor is complaining about VAT. It is just has made of the effect on living costs of changes to the chaos and confusion from the Labour party. personal allowance. [161221] Infrastructure Investment The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): It was announced in Budget 2013 that the 5. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What recent steps he Government would increase the annual personal allowance has taken to increase the level of infrastructure by a further £560 to £10,000 in April 2014, thus meeting investment. [161222] a key coalition commitment a year ahead of schedule. By that date, as a result of the combined effects of all The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): personal allowance increases under this Government, a In a difficult economic climate the Government are typical basic-rate taxpayer will have gained by more committed to investing in infrastructure. We have increased than £700 a year in cash terms. our infrastructure spending plans in this Parliament and have committed to a further £3 billion a year from 2015-16. John Howell: Does my hon. Friend agree that the best We are using this country’s hard-won fiscal credibility way of tackling this issue is to put cash into people’s to support and offer up to £40 billion in guarantees for pockets, and that taking 2.7 million people out of tax infrastructure projects, and I will set out our plans for altogether is an excellent way in which to proceed? further investment in infrastructure on Thursday. Mr Gauke: I do agree. What we have done is quite a Mark Menzies: As an MP for the north-west, may I contrast with what was done by the last Government, ask whether the Government can give assurances to the who increased the amount of income tax that some low House that large-scale infrastructure projects such as earners would have to pay by £232. Now the equivalents HS2 will proceed under this Government? of those people have been taken out of income tax altogether. Danny Alexander: Yes I can, and the House will be Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): If everything is considering High Speed 2 tomorrow. I hope my hon. better for the average family, why did the Institute for Friend and other Members on both sides of the House Fiscal Studies say that the average family was £891 worse will give the project very strong support, because it is a off? Was the IFS wrong? massive project that has the capacity completely to transform the regional economic geography of this Mr Gauke: We do not accept those figures. What I country. This Government are totally committed to will say is that we have been prepared to tackle the delivering it, and we will do so. biggest deficit in our peacetime history. We have taken measures to put the public finances back on a sustainable Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): footing, with no help from the Labour party, which has Can the Chief Secretary confirm that only seven of the opposed every measure that we have taken to do that. Treasury’s infrastructure projects in the pipeline have been completed? In view of its overall conversion finally Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is my hon. Friend to the need for infrastructure investment, is that not a aware that the Government have taken 3,000 low-income disgraceful record? people out of tax altogether in my constituency, and have cut taxes for 40,000 low-income residents? Is this Danny Alexander: I do not accept that figure, and I not a Government who are on the side of the poor? tell the hon. Gentleman a very large number of projects are completed or under way that we have announced. Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He There are national road schemes, motorway schemes could have added—and I am surprised that he did not around the country, local transport schemes around the do so—that we have taken action on fuel duty as well. country, Crossrail under way—tunnelling started in May 2012—and major improvements to over 134 railway Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Money in stations since May 2010. There is a great deal of investment people’s pockets is one thing, but since the financial in infrastructure going on, and he should welcome it. crash, food prices have increased by 18% compared with inflation of 13%. It is not just a question of the 23. [161242]Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): money in people’s pockets; it is also a question of what Ahead of tomorrow’s comprehensive spending review, they have to pay when they go to the shops. Does the can I make yet another plea about the importance of Minister really believe that families in my constituency the M4 around Newport? It is the gateway to the south feel that they are better off? Wales economy and it needs to be upgraded. That is long overdue; it was ignored by the last Government Mr Gauke: It is because of the need to deal with the for so many years. cost of living that we have taken measures such as controlling increases in council tax. That is why fuel Danny Alexander: Let me reassure my hon. Friend duty is lower than it was in the plans that we inherited, that I am very well aware of the importance of that project. and why we have taken the measures that we have taken We have been in discussions with the Welsh Assembly in regard to the personal allowance. [Interruption.] The Government about the matter, and it is very much tied shadow Chancellor is muttering about VAT. Let us be up with the Silk report, and together those two things clear about this. Labour Members did not vote against will help that project go forward. 151 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 152

20. [161239] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) two years away, but why are they not taking the advice (Lab/Co-op): Why have 80% of the projects in the of the International Monetary Fund and bringing forward Treasury’s infrastructure pipeline not even started capital investment now, in 2013, to make up for their construction yet? lamentable incompetence on this infrastructure plan?

Danny Alexander: A vast number of projects are Danny Alexander: We are investing more in infrastructure under way, and a vast number of projects are in the this year than the hon. Gentleman’s party planned pipeline to start, where work and planning permission during its period in government. We are supporting the are going on. These projects are being delivered up and private sector to bring forward further investment in down the country, and I have to say to the hon. Gentleman infrastructure, thanks to our infrastructure guarantee that he should show a little humility in this matter. programme. We are supporting the construction of After all, this Government are investing a greater share more affordable homes than his party managed; after of our nation’s income in infrastructure during this all, his party presided over a decline of 421,000 affordable Parliament than his party managed during its 13 years homes in this country. We are increasing investment in in office. that. He should welcome this Government’s infrastructure programme, not criticise it from the position of weakness Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): I look forward that he is in. to my right hon. Friend’s announcements about infrastructure on Thursday, but already on my weekly Job Creation journeys from Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington I can see the gantries going up around Reading to 6. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): What fiscal provide the electrification of the great western main steps he is taking to encourage job creation in the line. Is it not the case that this Government are already private sector. [161223] presiding over the greatest investment in railways since the Victorian era, providing a stimulus to the economy 14. Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): How many in Bristol and all stations between there and London? jobs have been created in the private sector since 2010. [161231] Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and rather than laughing, the shadow Chancellor should The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David welcome the fact that there is the largest investment in Gauke): Private sector employment has been growing our railways since Victorian times. Electrification is robustly, with 1.3 million jobs created in the sector since under way, ahead of schedule as my hon. Friend suggests; the start of 2010. At Budget 2013, we announced the the intercity express programme train purchase programme £2,000 employment allowance, which will support businesses will help to improve journey times yet further; what was aspiring to grow by hiring their first employee or expanding in our announcements in the autumn statement last their work force. Businesses will be able to employ four year will allow direct western rail access to Heathrow adults or 10 18 to 20-year-olds full time on the national from his constituency and other communities served by minimum wage without paying any employer national that line. insurance contributions at all.

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): If it is Laura Sandys: Does my hon. Friend agree that the all so wonderful, can the Chief Secretary explain why, combination of an enterprise zone and a regional growth two years after he published the national infrastructure fund that has been supporting jobs in my area following plan, according to the Office for National Statistics the the Pfizer closure, and which the Chancellor very kindly level of infrastructure investment in our economy has opened, has delivered 750 new jobs in one year? We plummeted by a staggering 50% in the first quarter of hope to be announcing a further 200 jobs in the next this year, its lowest level since he came to office? Why? couple of weeks. Does that sound like a private sector success? Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman should remember that the capital investment we are putting into infrastructure Mr Gauke: It certainly does, and I pay tribute to my in this economy is much greater than in the plans his hon. Friend for the work that she has done for her party set out before the last election. As the former constituency. Discovery Park is proving to be a success, Foreign Secretary said, Labour was going to halve the with help from the regional growth fund and as an share of national income going into capital spending. enterprise zone—and long may that success continue. We have added to that, and by using the fiscal credibility that this Government’s tough approach to the deficit Simon Wright: The 2010 autumn statement confirmed has secured to offer infrastructure guarantees, we are the dualling of the A11, raising investor confidence in enabling infrastructure projects in the private sector to Norwich as a destination for growth. May I urge Treasury come forward that would not be doing so otherwise. Ministers to be similarly bold in their spending review in relation to the A47, where investment has the potential to create up to 10,000 more jobs for the region? Chris Leslie: What planet is the Chief Secretary living on? A year ago, the director general of the CBI was Mr Gauke: I am grateful for that question, and I am asking: sure that my hon. Friend will be listening attentively to “Where are the diggers on the ground?” any announcements made later on in the week. His A year later, the diggers are still gathering dust. I constituency is another example of where private sector realise that the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor are growth has been very strong, reflecting the national busy focusing on headlines for the next general election, pattern. 153 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 154

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): How Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): The Prime many jobs will high-speed rail create? Minister assured us that by 2015 the books would be balanced. Is it not a fact that as a consequence of the Mr Gauke: Over time, tens of thousands. Chancellor’s abject economic failure we are now looking at the deficit reaching £96 billion by 2015? What does Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): the Financial Secretary have to say about that? Following the success of last week’s G8 summit, Northern Ireland is now looking forward to the international Greg Clark: I have followed the hon. Gentleman’s investment conference in October. Will the Treasury interventions over time and he should be familiar, as we work closely with the Prime Minister and the Northern all are, with the study from the Institute for Fiscal Ireland Executive to ensure that we maximise private Studies that made it very clear that if the policies of his sector investment in Northern Ireland, both in 2013 party had continued, the debt would be £200 billion and 2014? higher.

Mr Gauke: Yes, absolutely. There needs to be a much Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right stronger private sector in Northern Ireland, as has been hon. Friend agree that if we look across the channel to accepted by this Government and by all the parties in countries such as Italy, we see what can easily happen if Northern Ireland. a Government lose control of public spending?

Public Sector Debt Hon. Members: That is not across the channel.

9. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Greg Clark: The channel is not very far from my hon. What his Department’s estimate is of the likely level of Friend’s constituency, so it is possible to look across. He public sector net debt as a share of GDP in 2015-16. will know that the UK cut its structural deficit by more [161226] than any other G7 country over the past three years, whereas Labour racked up the largest structural deficit The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): in the G7. The shadow Chancellor confirmed on Sunday Public sector net debt is forecast to be 85% of GDP in that he would borrow more money in 2013, 2014 and 2015-16, compared with 94% of GDP and accelerating 2015. Labour says it has a new policy, but it is the old had the policies of the previous Government continued policy—to borrow more and to go further into debt. to be pursued. Housing Market (Budget 2013) Steve McCabe: Let us hope that that estimate proves more reliable than previous efforts. In the interests of transparency, and given tomorrow’s comprehensive 10. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What progress spending review, is the Minister now ready to admit that he has made on implementing the housing market the national debt has risen from £828.7 billion to measures announced in Budget 2013. [161227] £1.19 trillion under his watch? If we eliminate the Royal Mail pension fund, as we have been advised to do, and The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): the Bank of England gilts from quantitative easing, is it The Government have made excellent progress in not true that borrowing in 2012-13 is up, and not down implementing the measures. For example, the Help to as the Chancellor told this Chamber? Buy equity loan scheme has helped 4,000 individuals and families reserve a new build home already and the Greg Clark: Like you, Mr Speaker, I take a great Help to Buy mortgage guarantee scheme will be in interest in the hon. Gentleman’s speeches in this House, place by January 2014. and I know that he is deeply interested in fiscal policy. Since the beginning of the year, he has spoken 102 times Andrew George: In high house price and low wage on the subject of public spending cuts, but in each and areas such as mine, where four times more properties every intervention he has opposed spending cuts. To cut are sold to second home buyers than to first-time buyers, the debt, we have to cut spending. He should learn that, intermediate market solutions—shared equity and and the Labour party should as well. affordable homes with section 106 planning restrictions—are often the only way for local families to get a toe on the John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Does the Minister housing ladder, yet the equity loan scheme does not agree that one reason why our debt is such an issue is have the rules to enable them to take advantage of it. that the previous Government ran budget deficits in the Will the Government reconsider the rules to help local good times as well as the bad and that the only way to people in such circumstances? reduce debt is to get the deficit down? Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend is right to raise that Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We issue. He will have upmost in his mind the fact that know that between 2001 and the time they left office, under Labour, house building fell to its lowest levels the previous Government trebled the national debt, yet since the 1920s. The Government are supporting hard- when the shadow Chancellor was asked whether they working households who have saved but who do not were too profligate and had too much national debt, he have a large deposit from the bank of mum and dad to said no. Labour’s new policy is the old policy: more help in buying their own home. The Help to Buy equity spending, more borrowing, more debt. It is time they loan scheme he mentioned will help 74,000 families and learned. has already helped 4,000. My hon. Friend will be pleased 155 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 156 to know that 20% of the £1.8 billion of additional Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Does the Minister funding we have promised for affordable homes will go see any correlation between wages being £1,300 a year to shared ownership. less than they were at the time of the election and the number of people who are in work turning up at food John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Will the banks? Help to Buy scheme help to increase the supply of housing? I am not talking about buying capacity; will it Sajid Javid: What I see is jobs being created in the specifically increase the supply of housing? private sector at a record rate in this country—1.3 million jobs in the past three years; a faster rate of job creation Sajid Javid: The short answer is that it most certainly than any other G7 country last year. If the hon. Gentleman will, and it has been welcomed by the Home Builders really cared about his constituents, he would welcome Federation. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is that. now concerned about the issue. House building fell to its lowest levels since the 1920s under the previous Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What has the effect Government. The number of affordable homes decreased been of Government policies not just on petrol but on by 421,000 over 13 years and local authority waiting keeping interest rates low, freezing council tax, cutting lists almost doubled from 1 million to 1.8 million under income tax and helping pensioners? Labour—a shameful record. Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend has raised the issue of Average Earnings interest rates. If we had not had a credible policy to deal with the record budget deficit that the previous Government 12. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): What recent left behind, interest rates would be a lot higher. In fact, estimate he has made of the rate of increase of average in the last Budget delivered by them, interest payments earnings compared to the rate of consumer price on Government debt would have been £30 billion higher inflation. [161229] in this Parliament. If interest rates were just 1% higher, mortgages would rise by almost £1,000 a year for the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): average household. The best way to deal with today’s cost of living challenges is to have paid employment. In 2012, the number of Community Budgets people employed in the UK has risen faster than most of our competitors, including the US, France, Germany 13. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): What assessment he and Japan. As a result, household income has risen by has made of the role of community budgets in 2.1% more than consumer prices over the past year. improving the efficiency of public expenditure; and if he will make a statement. [161230] Ian Mearns: Despite what the Minister has just said, the Office for Budget Responsibility says that living standards for many will be lower in 2015 than they were The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): in 2010. Is it not the case that, while the rich and I am a strong supporter of community budgets because, super-rich benefit from tax cuts, working people and by joining up public services locally, we can save money their families are worse off? Is not the truth that we are and get better outcomes for our constituents. The troubled not all in it together? families programme is using the community budgets approach to turn around the lives of 120,000 families by 2015. Building on its success, I announced yesterday Sajid Javid: No, certainly not. I am pleased that the that the Government would put £200 million towards hon. Gentleman is concerned about this issue. The hon. expanding the programme to work with a further 400,000 Gentleman became a Member of Parliament in 2010, families from 2015. and he will know that in the last term of the stewardship of the previous Government, his constituency saw paid employment fall, and unemployment rise by a staggering John Pugh: Ernst and Young estimates that between 67%. Paid employment is the best way to raise living £9 billion and £20 billion can be saved by the national standards, and 1.3 million new private sector jobs have roll-out of community budgets. Given that the pressure been created in the past three years. More people are in is on us, should that roll-out be sooner rather than employment than at any other time in the history of this later? country. Danny Alexander: Yes, it certainly should, and I urge Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): On living my hon. Friend to listen carefully to the Chancellor’s costs and standards, can my hon. Friend tell me how much statement tomorrow. more my constituents would have to pay to fill a tank with petrol if we had adopted the previous Government’s Mr Speaker: I call Pamela Nash. Not here. fuel price rises? Child Benefit (Higher Earners) Sajid Javid: My hon. Friend highlights an important point. We scrapped Labour’s fuel duty escalator; we have frozen their escalator. Petrol prices are 13p per litre 16. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What lower than if he we had kept the policies of the previous progress he has made on his policy to withdraw child Government. benefit payments from higher earners. [161233] 157 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 158

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): The Gauke): In January 2013 a new income tax charge was whole House will have heard the Chancellor not answer introduced to reduce or remove the financial benefit of the topical question asked by my hon. Friend the Member receiving child benefit for those on high incomes. For for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk). The reason is that, taxpayers with incomes between £50,000 and £60,000, the despite all the Budget speech bluster, borrowing last amount of the charge is a proportion of the child benefit year went not down, but up. received. For taxpayers with income above £60,000, the Let me ask the Chancellor another question. The bonuses amount of the charge is equal to the amount of child paid in the financial services sector this April, the first benefit received. Eighty-five per cent. of families with month of the new tax year, were 65% higher than in the children continue to benefit in full from child benefit. same month last year—up by a total of £1.3 billion. Entitlement to child benefit payments remains universal Can the Chancellor tell the House why bank bonuses and will continue to be paid to all those who claim it. rose by £1.3 billion this April? Richard Graham: I am delighted to hear about the savings that will be achieved, especially given that those Mr Osborne: First, on borrowing, the Labour of us who supported them were told by the Labour Government were borrowing £157 billion a year. This party that they would destroy the universal principle, Government borrowed £118 billion last year, which and that they were complicated, unfair and unworkable. represents a fall in borrowing. The deficit is down by a It now appears that they are workable, and the Opposition third because we are taking the tough decisions to have accepted that they will not change the policy. Will ensure that Britain lives within its means. On bonuses, my hon. Friend share with us what vital provision of they are 85% lower than when the right hon. Gentleman services those savings can achieve, and will he also was City Minister. consider means-testing the winter fuel allowance?

Mr Gauke: There is a substantial saving to the Exchequer Ed Balls: The fact is that the Chancellor promised to through child benefit. It was not that long ago when the get the deficit down, but it is rising, and that month-on- Leader of the Opposition said that millionaires should month rise in bonuses is the highest since records began receive child benefit because in 2000. There is a simple reason why that happened: thousands of very highly paid people deferred their “it’s a cornerstone of our system to have universal benefits”. bonuses into the new tax year to take advantage of the It appears that that is no longer the case, although all Chancellor’s top rate tax cut, which has cost the Exchequer we have is briefing. On winter fuel payments, the Prime millions of pounds in lost tax revenue. How can the Minister made it clear that they would continue in the Chancellor still say, “We’re all in this together,” when course of this Parliament and we will fulfil that living standards are falling for everyone else and the commitment. economy has flatlined for three years? Is not this economic failure the reason why the Chancellor will not balance Topical Questions the books in 2015 and why he will be coming back to the House tomorrow to ask for more cuts to public T1. [161243] Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): If he services? He is unfair and out of touch, and he is now will make a statement on his departmental revealed as totally incompetent. responsibilities.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): Mr Osborne: Getting a lesson from the shadow The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the Chancellor on how to balance the books is like getting a stability and prosperity of the economy. lesson from Dracula on how to look after a blood bank. He finds himself in a most extraordinary situation. On Simon Danczuk: In his March Budget, the Chancellor Saturday, the Labour leader said that Labour was going boasted that Government borrowing fell last year. Will to rule out borrowing more. On Sunday, when the he confirm that figures published by the Office for National shadow Chancellor was asked whether Labour could Statistics on Friday show that Government borrowing borrow more, he said, “Yes, yes, of course,” and then, last year actually did not go down, but went up? on Monday, the Labour party committed itself to higher welfare spending—it is a complete shambles. On the eve Mr Osborne: The Office for National Statistics revised of the spending review, Labour finds itself in the down borrowing for 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2013-14; that extraordinary situation in which it has completely is actually good news. abandoned the economic argument that it has been making for the past three years, but kept the disastrous T2. [161244] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) economic policy. That is a hopeless position. The shadow (Con): The quality of schools in my constituency is Chancellor has led Labour Members up a cul-de-sac very high. Will my right hon. Friend outline the and they have to find their way out of it. Government’s intentions on school funding?

Mr Osborne: Everyone knows that Britain needs to T4. [161247] Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) live within its means, and tomorrow I shall set out the (Con): In the last Budget the Chancellor announced a next phase of the economic plan to move Britain from video games tax relief to help support UK publishers rescue to recovery. However, I can confirm that we will and developers, which was a very welcome step. However, offer real protection for our national health service and the European Commission has launched an investigation our schools. Those vital public services are an investment into this tax relief. Will my right hon. Friend join me in our economic future, and they are all about doing and industry representatives such as TIGA so that we what we need to do to win that global race. may make the best case possible for this vital policy? 159 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 160

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David T8. [161251] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) Gauke): We remain committed to introducing video (Lab): Why does the Office for Budget Responsibility games tax relief as soon as possible and we are working say that the deficit this year will be the same as it was with the industry to provide the Commission with the last year and the year before? Is not the truth that the evidence that it needs to conclude its investigation quickly. Government’s stalled plan on jobs and growth has led These things can take a little time, but we have a history to this appalling situation? of succeeding in implementing new and innovative forms of state aid. Mr Osborne: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman the appalling situation. It was an 11% budget deficit that T3. [161246] Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Since the the Opposition left us when they left office—11%. It is Chancellor’s last spending review the US economy has now going to be 7.7%. Borrowing—[Interruption.] The grown four times faster than the UK’s. Is this not further right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) evidence of the Chancellor’s failed policies? asks how much money. I will tell him. The Opposition were borrowing £157 billion. We are now borrowing £118 billion. Borrowing is not going up. It came down Mr George Osborne: The US fiscal consolidation is from £157 billion to £118 billion, and if the right hon. faster this year than the UK consolidation. The structural Gentleman cannot do that maths, no wonder he left the deficit in the UK has fallen by more than in the US. But country in such a mess. look at the UK—we have created over a million new jobs in the private sector. That is one of the most Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): The impressive employment records anywhere in the world. A14 Cambridge toll road is strategically vital for the golden economic triangle that is Cambridge, Norwich T6. [161249] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): and Ipswich— Devolution is a continuing process. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the National Assembly for Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Colchester. Wales is to develop into a fiscally responsible governing institution, it must have responsibility for raising a Mr Ruffley: And indeed Colchester. Can my right significant part of its own budget? hon. Friend the Chancellor confirm that he will have that at the forefront of his mind when the Treasury The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): makes its capital allocations? I do agree with that. The Government established the Commission on Devolution in Wales to consider, as Mr Osborne: The A14 is a strategically important part of its remit, how to increase the fiscal accountability road, not just for my hon. Friend’s constituents, but for and autonomy of the Welsh Assembly Government. We the whole country. It links ports to many of our largest are carefully considering the commission’s recommendations cities. It is at the forefront of our mind. My right hon. and we will respond in due course, having discussed the Friend the Chief Secretary will set out on Thursday not matter with the Welsh Assembly Government. just the capital plans for 2015-16, important as they are, but our long-term plans for road investment. Central to that is making sure that Britain has the economic T5. [161248] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): May I take the Chancellor infrastructure that we need to succeed in the modern back to the question posed by the shadow Chancellor world, and the A14 is part of that infrastructure. and by my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk)? Did Government borrowing rise in 2012-13, T9. [161252] Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) as compared to 2011-12? (Lab): The Chancellor must be concerned about the spiralling costs of air travel, with fares currently up by 22%. Does he agree that we need to increase competition Mr George Osborne: Figures from the Office for by making better use of spare capacity at regional National Statistics show that the deficit fell from 7.8% airports? To that end, will he agree to look again at to 7.7%, so it came down. reforming air passenger duty in order to promote growth at airports such as Manchester airport? T7. [161250] Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): In the light of the Chancellor’s assiduous commitment to deficit Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman and I represent reduction, what assessment has my right hon. Friend both ends of the runway at Manchester airport and know made of the Opposition’s spending plans, which appear how important it is to our constituents and to economic to consist of more borrowing, more debt and a return growth in the north-west. We looked specifically at whether to Labour’s failed policy of boom and bust? to split APD into a tax for hub airports and a tax for regional airports, but we ruled that out because we do Mr Osborne rose— not think that it would be fair. We have stuck with the APD rates we inherited from the previous Government. With regard to the campaign being run on the subject, it Mr Speaker: Order. The Chancellor is not responsible is important to recognise that airlines often refer to for Labour policy. A very short one-sentence reply will charges and taxes, and many of the charges are those, suffice, then we must move on. Members must ask such as fuel charges, that they have chosen to put on. I questions that are orderly, not disorderly. understand the argument, because we have collectively—it was the previous Government’s decision—taken a tough Mr Osborne: My short answer is thank God I am not decision on APD rates, but I think that people should responsible for Opposition policy. read the small print of the campaign. 161 Oral Answers25 JUNE 2013 Oral Answers 162

Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Does my implemented until 2019. Can the Chancellor give one right hon. Friend share my concern that, notwithstanding guarantee today—that the markets division of RBS, the Alice in Wonderland economic world of the shadow and comparable departments in other large banks, will Chancellor, a plan to borrow more will not actually be outside the retail ring fence and not liable to taxpayer bring borrowing down? assistance when the new rules are in place?

Mr Osborne: I completely agree that Labour’s plan to Mr Osborne: First, the timetable is one that John borrow more to borrow less is completely nonsensical. Vickers and his commission themselves proposed. Secondly, It really is extraordinary that a day after the Labour it is not for me to make individual decisions about leader said that Labour had ruled out borrowing more, individual banks; that is for the boards of those banks the shadow Chancellor committed the party to doing and, of course, the regulator. But the whole purpose is just that. It is a catastrophic position for his party to to insulate the retail bank from things that go wrong in hold. Frankly, I do not think that the country will ever the investment bank and, above all, to make it possible adopt it. for the person doing my job to be able to resolve the retail bank and keep the retail operations going without Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): having to bail out the investment banking arm. Indeed, Given that the Chancellor appears unwilling to give us that whole problem of “too big to fail” is something we the answer that dare not speak its name on last year’s need to deal with. borrowing, I will ask him about the time available to debate the recommendations of the Parliamentary Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): It is the Government’s Commission on Banking Standards. A number of those policy that, to cover cutting the Army to its smallest size recommendations require legislation before they can be since the battle of Waterloo, people should be encouraged given effect. The Government have allocated only one to join the reserves. Leading by example, will the Chancellor day on Report for the banking Bill. Although I respect of the Exchequer say how many members of his staff their lordships, surely it should be the elected House have joined the Territorial Army since January this that is given a chance to debate the recommendations. year? Will he reconsider and allow two days on Report? The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Mr Osborne: First, I thank the right hon. Gentleman I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the answer is none. for his contribution to the Parliamentary Commission He is passionate about the issue, which he has raised on Banking Standards, along with all Members of this before. I can also confirm that the Treasury implements House and the other House who took part in it. The the policy of the Government—to make sure that all very fact that the Commission has done its work speedily reservists who request a 10-day special leave on a paid means that we can consider its recommendations for the basis get it. banking Bill going before Parliament. Of course, allocation of time is a matter for the Leader of the House to make Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): On infrastructure clear in his statement. The right hon. Gentleman has investment, there is widespread disquiet—including in my commitment that over the course of the Bill’s the National Audit Office, it seems—about the management scrutiny—it will go to the Lords and then come back to of the Government’s broadband investment programme. the Commons—there will be proper time to consider all Does the Chancellor agree that it is essential to harness the Commission’s recommendations and, if necessary, competition effectively in delivering infrastructure for the Government to draft changes in order to implement investment? them. It is a parliamentary commission, which is what I wanted it to be, and it is of course right that Parliament Danny Alexander: Our programme of investment in should consider its report in detail. rural broadband is being delivered in every part of the United Kingdom, and it is on track for delivery. We Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): In 2007, 50% continue to look at the capability of Government of UK gilts were purchased by insurance companies Departments to deliver infrastructure projects effectively. and pension funds. Last year the figure had fallen to My noble Friend the Commercial Secretary to the 22%, the lion’s share of UK gilts now being bought by Treasury has been undertaking a review of these matters the Bank of England. Does my right hon. Friend share and will set out the conclusions shortly. my concern that we are funding public sector overspend by having one branch of the state write out IOUs for Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): This another? Can that be sustained? morning, it was Labour party policy to cut pensions to spend more on welfare. We have just heard that the Mr Osborne: The arrangements for quantitative easing party now supports the triple lock. Is the Chancellor are well established, and the decisions on whether to optimistic that by tea time it might support our policy increase asset purchases are within the envelope that on controlled welfare spending? [Interruption.] I set for the independent Monetary Policy Committee. I think that an active monetary policy has helped sustain Mr Speaker: The hon. Lady was very difficult to hear demand over the past few years. It is anchored in a because there was so much noise from the Opposition credible fiscal policy, the next stage of which we will set Benches, but fewer than 10 minutes ago I stressed that out tomorrow. questions should be about the policies of the Government, not the Opposition. It is a pity to finish on a bad note, Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): It is six months but Members really ought to establish the right habit since the Banking Commission’s first report warned early in their parliamentary careers. We will, I am afraid, against a delay in ring-fencing, so it is disappointing that have to leave it there. This is a box office occasion, and the ring-fencing of the banks might not be fully demand tends to exceed supply. 163 25 JUNE 2013 Point of Order 164

Points of Order Mr Speaker: I will make two points in response to the hon. Gentleman. The first is the point that I have just made—that all Members, including Ministers, must 12.32 pm take responsibility for the content of their answers. My Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op) rose— second point is that if the hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied with the answer because he thinks that it is uninformative Mr Speaker: Mr Balls, I can always see and hear you. or in some way lacks credibility or plausibility, it is open Fear not: your point of order will now be heard. to him to take up his concern with the Procedure Committee. The House will doubtless be aware that the Ed Balls: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Procedure Committee, under the auspices of its indefatigable figures produced on Friday by the independent Office Chairman, the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), for National Statistics show that borrowing rose from is looking at the whole issue of answers to parliamentary £118.5 billion in 2011-12 up to £118.7 billion in 2012-13. questions, and I feel sure that he and his colleagues on Is there a danger that the Chancellor may have inadvertently the Committee will be happy to hear representations misled the House in claiming that the deficit had fallen? from the hon. Gentleman. That response is intended to Would it be appropriate for him to correct the record be helpful to all Members of the House. now or should he make a statement today correcting the record and saying that borrowing has not gone down Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): On a point of but up? order, Mr Speaker. I am sure that you will have noticed that I was trying to catch your eye during Treasury Mr Speaker: Every right hon. and hon. Member is questions. On 12 March, the Financial Secretary to the responsible for the content, including the accuracy, of Treasury told me that the case of my constituent, Mr James his or her answers. I know that neither the shadow Boyle, with Clydesdale bank was being looked into. Chancellor nor the Chancellor would seek to draw me Clydesdale bank has since written to me saying that, no, into a debate on substantive matters. That would be it has not been reviewed or looked into. Could the unworthy, and neither of them is an unworthy individual. Speaker tell me whether the right hon. Gentleman has perhaps inadvertently misled the House? The shadow Chancellor has raised his point of order. There is an opportunity for the Chancellor to respond if Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman’s use of the point he wishes—[Interruption.] Order. But he is under no of order procedure is ingenious, but perhaps a tad obligation to do so. I have a suspicion that these matters cheeky. He is seeking to ask now the question that he will be aired further in the course of the week, and did not have the opportunity to ask earlier. If we were perhaps in weeks, months and indeed years to come. We to proceed on that basis, Treasury questions would, in will leave it there for now. effect, be at least doubled in length. The hon. Gentleman has made his point. I have no idea whether the Minister John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): in any way feels that his reply to him requires revision or On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week I received a reconsideration in the light of the verdict of the bank. It response from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to has to be said that the expression “looked into” is a my written question on how many occasions Ministers commonly deployed term that has about it a certain have signed off special severance payments for NHS vagueness, and it therefore lends itself to a number of employees in the past year. He said that it would cost different interpretations. It would be inappropriate for too much to give me that information. How can the me to suggest that anyone has misled the House, and I Government possibly claim to want an end to the am certainly not doing so. If the hon. Gentleman culture of secrecy in the NHS if they are covering up wishes to take the matter up, he must correspond further their complicity in these pay-offs? Is there anything you with the Minister or hope to be luckier at Treasury can do to intervene, Mr Speaker? questions in future. 165 25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 166 Opposition Day Several hon. Members rose— Jon Trickett: I will give way in a moment. [4TH ALLOTTED DAY] After the reshuffle, not a single Minister was left with a formal duty to bring forward the reform to which the Lobbying Government had committed themselves. When we called this Opposition debate, we could therefore have had a [Relevant document: Second Report from the Political sweepstake in the office on which Minister would speak and Constitutional Reform Committee, Session 2012-13, on behalf of the Government, because none of them Introducing a statutory register of lobbyists, HC 153.] had formal responsibility for lobbying after the reshuffle. At the top of our guess list was the Deputy Prime Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected Minister, but he was not too keen. In fact, he is nowhere the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. to be seen this afternoon. We then thought that it might be my opposite number, the Minister for the Cabinet 12.38 pm Office, because that is where the Bill is supposedly being drafted. He is nowhere to be seen either. We then thought Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): Let me start by that it would have to be the Minister for political and entirely accepting that lobbying is a normal part—in constitutional reform, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet fact, an essential part—of an active democracy, and Office, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith). that includes commercial lobbying. However, it has She is in the Chamber, but I see that she will not be been clear for some time that the professional sector of speaking. None of the above will be responding. Very the industry needs to be properly regulated. The Prime unusually, the Leader of the House will be speaking on Minister, when he was Leader of the Opposition, said this Opposition day. It seems that he was the last one that lobbying is standing when the music stopped. “an issue that crosses party lines and has tainted our politics for too long” Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Getting back to the and that it is subject of the debate, which is lobbying, does the hon. “an issue that exposes the far-too-cosy relationship between Gentleman agree that it is not right for parliamentary politics, government, business and money.” passes to be given to lobbyists? We agree with him. Jon Trickett: The funding of political parties is being Priti Patel (Witham) (Con) rose— discussed—[Interruption.] Let me come to the point. That matter is being discussed in another place on a Jon Trickett: I will give way, but not yet. cross-party basis. Financial relationships between political The subject of today’s debate could not be more parties and lobbyists clearly ought to be a matter for important for the reputation of the House of Commons, regulation. I believe that financial relationships between for every single right hon. and hon. Member knows in individual Members of Parliament and lobbyists should their heart of hearts that the perceived integrity of be outlawed, but I will come to that point in a minute. politicians is at an all-time low. The Prime Minister’s prediction that lobbying was the Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): I chair “next big scandal waiting to happen” the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, has sadly proved to be all too correct. [Interruption.] It which has looked into this matter at length. It must may be one of the few things he did get right, as my surely be of concern to all parliamentarians and to hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael Members from all parts of the House that the Government Dugher) says. Knowing that this was going to happen, have failed to respond to a report that was published we ought to have moved rigorously and rapidly to almost a year ago. Rather than legislate in haste, should ensure that our democracy emerged cleaner and with a we not look at this matter in a parliamentary way, with higher reputation than it currently has. pre-legislative scrutiny and a proper response to a Select If we can, we ought to handle these matters in a Committee that was elected by Members from all parts non-partisan manner. It is therefore with some regret of the House? that we raise lobbying reform on an Opposition day, which is usually a political knockabout. It is particularly Jon Trickett: I pay tribute to the work of my hon. disappointing because it appeared that a cross-party Friend and all the members of his Select Committee. consensus had begun to emerge that something needed They have produced important recommendations. It would to be done. In fact, by the time the coalition agreement be helpful if we had sight of the Bill that it appears will had been signed, all three main parties had agreed to emerge in due course, so that there could be pre-legislative legislation and to the creation of a statutory register, scrutiny. It is time that we saw some progress on this but that was more than three years ago. Unfortunately, matter. all the Government have done since then is to have a I welcome the fact that the Leader of the House will long, slow consultation followed by a White Paper, and speak this afternoon because, although he is not listening then another long, slow consultation. to me, he is a decent parliamentarian. His duty as the When the reshuffle took place in September 2012, Leader of the House is to protect all hon. Members, as formal responsibility for lobbying reform had been well as the reputation of the House as a whole. I hope totally removed from ministerial responsibilities. The he will drive through the necessary process of lobbying Government simply forgot about lobbying reform. reform. 167 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 168

Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I thank my Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): hon. Friend for giving way. With all deference to my When? hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Mr Lansley: I am about to say when: before this Reform Committee, the Public Administration Committee summer recess. For the benefit of the hon. Gentleman published a report several years ago in the previous that is 18 July, not next summer recess: Parliament recommending a register of lobbyists. Also “before the summer recess to introduce a statutory register of in the previous Parliament, I tabled an early-day motion lobbyists” that received more than 120 signatures from all parts of within three years. That was in the coalition Government’s the House. The Government cannot forget these things. programme. His Government did not do anything.

Jon Trickett: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Jon Trickett: The amendment goes on to talk about There has been pressure for something to be done on all kinds of other extraneous matters. The truth is that lobbying for many years. the Government are seeking to obscure the nature of the In the three years since the coalition agreement was debate that we need to have this afternoon. This debate signed, we have had nothing but delay, obfuscation and is about lobbying reform. Will there or will there not be prevarication, and the Government are at it again today. a lobbying Bill that will create a serious register with a The Government’s amendment does not clearly indicate code of conduct? that they will produce a lobbying Bill, and that is shabby politics. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He earlier quoted the Prime Minister on James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con) the “next big scandal”. Does he agree that it will be a rose— scandal with planning permission, for both Government and Parliament, if we fail to legislate and to legislate Jon Trickett: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, robustly—not a light-touch statutory register, but robust but when he rises to his feet I invite him to say whether a legislation? lobbying Bill should be introduced, without any further obfuscation or prevarication of the type we have seen in Jon Trickett: My hon. Friend makes an important the past three years—yes or no? point and does so more succinctly than I have been doing. James Morris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for taking The Government’s strategy has been clear: to kick the an intervention. He talks about obfuscation and delay, whole issue into the long grass for as long as possible but I happen to remember that there was a Labour and then to try to confuse and obscure the true issues. Government for 13 years. Will he tell me what happened Only last month, we had the Queen’s Speech in which to the idea of a lobbying register in those 13 years? there was no mention of lobbying reform. It is only now, because of recent unfavourable headlines, that my Jon Trickett: The hon. Gentleman would have a opposite number finally said that he wanted to see some powerful argument about the previous Administration lobbying reform. We shall have a look later at what sort but for the fact that throughout the whole of that of lobbying reform that might be. period the Conservative party argued for a voluntary register. Even as late as September 2009, the right hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), who became my the hon. Gentleman give way? opposite number, was arguing in the trade press that there should be a voluntary register. In March 2010, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell Jon Trickett: I will, but will the hon. Gentleman tell and Peckham (Ms Harman), the deputy leader of our me whether there will be a lobbying Bill before the party, said that we had tried a voluntary register but it summer recess? did not work, so we now needed to move towards legislation. In its manifesto, the Labour party clearly Jacob Rees-Mogg: If the hon. Gentleman took the committed itself to a statutory register, but what did the trouble to read Hansard, he would have noticed that a Conservative party manifesto say? It said that the lobbying Bill was introduced yesterday, so there is already Conservative party wanted to persevere with a voluntary a lobbying Bill on the Order Paper from his hon. Friend register. For the whole of the 13 years we were in office, the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas it is clear that the Conservatives were pressing us not to Docherty). However, if this issue was so pressing at the legislate, and the fact is that in the past three years they time of the Queen’s Speech, why did the Labour party have done nothing whatever to legislate. not raise it then or table an amendment to that effect? Or has it just jumped on a bandwagon? The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving Jon Trickett: If there are any more interventions of way. Of course, what he is telling the House is that the that poor quality, I will not take any more. Labour Government did nothing for 13 years. Two I wrote an article in The Guardian in January 2012, months before the general election, when they no longer using those three words: delay, prevarication and so on. expecting to be in power, they said that they might do It is simply not good enough to pretend that we have something in the future. He said that the Government’s not been demanding some form of legislation for at amendment was not clear about our commitment, but it least three years. The truth is that the Government have “welcomes the Government’s commitment to bring forward legislation delayed and even this afternoon, as we shall see, they before the summer recess”— are attempting to obfuscate the true issues. A Bill was 169 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 170

[Jon Trickett] Referring back to the gentleman I am talking about, if there were a statutory register in place—as there introduced yesterday but it was in the name of my hon. would have been if Labour had won the last election—we Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife would undoubtedly know who was lobbying on behalf (Thomas Docherty), a Member on this side of the of whom, how much was being spent and on behalf of House. which clients. I hoped—obviously it was a vain hope—that this could be a non-partisan debate. Our reputation as a Mark Durkan: Does my hon. Friend recognise that political class is now at an all-time low. Lobbyists needs experiences during the banking crisis, with the charity to be made to operate in the clear light of day, so that sector and in other areas have taught us that there is a every citizen can see and know how and why decisions key difference between registration and regulation and are taken. They also need to see how much is being that proposals that centre only on registration do not spent behind the scenes by commercial lobbyists to give us what we need? influence decision makers, and they need to see how that money is being spent. Nothing less will do. Let me Jon Trickett: That brings me to my next point. The illustrate the point with a case. Prime Minister said that sunlight is the best disinfectant and I agree, but I do not believe that the proposals I said that I would not be too partisan so I will not mentioned in the amendment match up to the requirements. name the individual. Someone may work out who it is; Let me explain why. There are three reasons. First, it some might be quicker than others. I shall refer to an was drawn in such a way as to cover only the narrowest Australian gentleman. In an Ashes summer, one would section of third-party lobbyists, which is less than a have thought that the Government would be on the quarter of the whole industry. What is the point of British side rather than that of the Australians. He shall having a register of professional lobbyists that will not be nameless, but he is a highly paid adviser to the Prime register all professional lobbyists? Secondly, there is no Minister. Reportedly, he had discussions at Chequers sign of the Government including in the Bill—it is prior to the Queen’s Speech with the Prime Minister certainly not in the White Paper—a code of conduct and the Chancellor. [HON.MEMBERS: “Patricia Hewitt?”] that would regulate the register. Even the voluntary I do not think that she was a gentleman, although she code that covers the more ethical part of the industry was many things. already has a code of conduct. Why would we want to When the Queen’s Speech was delivered, it transpired have a lower statutory threshold than that which the that the Government had dropped all reference not only more ethical section of the industry already imposes on to lobbying legislation but to plain tobacco packaging itself and its own members? and minimum alcohol pricing, all of which had been My third objection to the consultation, as the promised. The problem arises when the public find out Government call it, is this: given that the Government that this very same Australian is also and at the same are not proposing a code of conduct, there can be no time the chairman and managing director of an active sanctions applied against lobbyists who breach the code. lobbying company with an office here in London. The Again, this is a lower standard than the industry’s company has actively lobbied in Australia against plain existing codes. At the moment, any lobbyist working tobacco packaging and against minimum alcohol pricing. within the current ethical voluntary register is forbidden I do not wish to accuse this gentleman of having to engage in any improper financial relationship with behaved with any impropriety. Arguably—I do not any parliamentarian, which brings us to the bones of know—he may have excused himself from the discussions the issue. with the Prime Minister at Chequers when the matter of If we have a voluntary register and someone breaches a lobbying register came up. He might also have left the the code by having such a relationship with a room when tobacco packaging was mentioned and parliamentarian, they will be removed from the register done so once more when alcohol pricing was discussed. and will be unable to practise as a lobbyist. That should I do not know. But his company failed to register itself be written into legislation, but it is not envisaged in the on the voluntary register of lobbyists in Australia and White Paper. his company is not on the voluntary register in the UK. The White Paper was Therefore, we have no idea who his clients are, what their objectives are or how much money is being paid. “possibly one of the most shoddy documents I have ever seen government produce.” That is not my view, but that of a practising, professional James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): lobbyist. Francis Ingham, director general of the Public I am quite quick on the uptake and I have an inkling as Relations Consultants Association, said of the White to who the hon. Gentleman may be talking about, but Paper that the Government’s proposals were “unfit for will he make it clear that this person is a party employee, purpose”. not a Government employee, and that the arrangements are very similar to those of Charlie Whelan, Deborah John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): The code Mattinson, Derek Draper and Alastair Campbell and of conduct, which my hon. Friend mentions, is habitually that it would be duplicitous to say that they are in any broken. For example—he mentioned this sort of way different? contravention—the code says that parliamentarians should not be paid by lobbying companies that are signed up to Jon Trickett: I quoted the Prime Minister at the the code, yet many Members at the other end of the beginning of my speech. He said that this is a problem corridor are directors of lobbying firms and so presumably that affects all parties and has to be resolved by all are in receipt of payments. That breaks the code of parties. I take that point entirely. conduct, but nobody does anything about it. 171 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 172

Jon Trickett: The problem is that many companies 1.3 pm and lobbyists—the Australian I mentioned, for The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew example—do not participate even in the voluntary code, Lansley): I beg to move an amendment, to leave out which is why there must be statutory provision. from “House” to the end and add: Several hon. Members rose— “notes the failure of the previous administration to implement a statutory register of lobbyists for 13 years; welcomes the Coalition Agreement commitment to regulate lobbying through a statutory Jon Trickett: I will not take any more interventions, register; notes the Government’s consultation paper on Introducing because I want to make some progress and other people a Statutory Register of Lobbyists; welcomes the Government’s want to speak. commitment to bring forward legislation before the summer recess to introduce a statutory register of lobbyists, as part of a It is not difficult to define what the House should do broad package of measures to tighten the rules on how third to regulate the industry—I agree that the point is to parties can influence the UK’s political system; and looks forward regulate as well as to register, as my hon. Friend the to welcoming reforms that ensure that the activities of outside Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said—and it need organisations who seek to influence the political process are not be burdensome for professional lobbyists. In fact, it transparent, accountable and properly regulated.” takes about 20 minutes to provide the necessary information I move the amendment on behalf of the Government on the relevant form—I have tried it myself. The Bill both as Leader of the House, in which capacity I seek to should do four things. It should create a clear definition protect and promote the reputation of the House, which of professional lobbying; a statutory register of all the motion claims might have been damaged—I am those who lobby professionally; a clear code of conduct sorry that my being here disappoints the hon. Member that forbids inappropriate financial relations between for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett), who wanted other Ministers lobbyists and parliamentarians; and a strong system of to be here, but I am pleased to be here, and am here as a sanctions when the code is breached. volunteer, not a pressed man—and as a Cabinet Minister All that is detail, however. We are simply asking for a who, with ministerial colleagues, has policy responsibilities commitment from the Government to agree to cross-party in this regard. I, along with the Parliamentary Secretary, talks—in fact, that is really all our motion asks for—not Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich as an excuse for failing to act, but as a prelude to rapid North (Miss Smith), who has responsibility for political action to bring this matter into proper order. I hope and constitutional reform, and the Deputy Leader of that the Government’s amendment to the motion is not the House of Commons, my right hon. Friend the a signal that they intend to conflate a series of irrelevant Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), issues in order to obfuscate further and therefore once will take responsibility for the forthcoming Bill, which, more evade the central question before us this afternoon, as the amendment makes clear, we have committed to which is: how are we going to reform and then regulate introduce before the summer recess. It will be a Bill the lobbying industry? The noble Lord Wallace, who to implement our coalition programme commitment to speaks for the Cabinet Office in another place, said that introduce a statutory register of lobbyists and to promote the Government did not intend to conflate these matters. transparency and an improved regulatory framework I hope he is correct, but I fear he is not. for the influence of third parties in the political system.

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I agree Jon Trickett rose— with the hon. Gentleman, but does he agree that if we are genuinely to restore public trust in politics, the Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene statutory register of lobbyists has to be the very minimum, already. Perhaps he can add some clarity to his speech. and that we must do far more to tackle the excessive influence of corporate money and vested interests and Jon Trickett: We might be able to foreshorten the to address things such as the invisible secondments of debate, if the Leader of the House will say whether it people from industry right into the centre of policy will be a lobbying Bill. making here in Whitehall? Mr Lansley: It will introduce a statutory register on Jon Trickett: I will be speaking on other matters, as lobbyists. I listened to the hon. Gentleman’s speech— will other Labour spokespeople in due course, but the honestly, I did—but I regret that it sank further and hon. Lady is right that we have to take big money out of further into the quicksands of confused thinking. politics across the board. We have proposals to do that, and have made some difficult recommendations on Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con) rose— trade unions, if anyone is interested. It is the Government who are stalling the negotiations on party funding. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab) rose— We need a lobbying Bill that will begin the process of cleaning up our politics and create a level playing field Mr Lansley: I shall try to be even-handed. I shall give for all the professional lobbyists who behave ethically way to my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood but are constantly undermined by a few who do not (Mr Spencer) first. play by the rules. Nothing less will do. The Leader of the House must say whether he will continue to speak Mr Spencer: It is good to hear that my right hon. for the closed circle, the tiny elite, that seems to run our Friend is here voluntarily and has not been lobbied, but, country and on whose behalf many professional lobbyists further to the intervention from my hon. Friend the often work, or whether he will speak on behalf of the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), will he clarify many by placing the professional lobbying industry on whether he thinks it appropriate for hon. Members to a proper footing. give parliamentary passes to lobbyists? 173 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 174

Mr Lansley: That is an important point. My personal said the motion was nothing but a piece of political view is that we should not be doing that. I do not wish opportunism launched off the back of recent reports—but to engage you directly in this debate, Mr Speaker, other I am a more generous soul. I looked for a purpose in the than by way of approbation. I thought it was absolutely Labour motion. I hoped that the debate would show right that you made your proposal in the light of recent evidence of Labour thinking practical thoughts about press allegations. In particular, it was absolutely right how to promote a more open and accountable system. that you considered the question of the number of That hope was, however, not founded on experience. We passes made available to sponsors of all-party parliamentary know that Labour did not actually do anything about a groups and asked the Committee on Standards to consider statutory register of lobbyists for the 13 years it was in the matter. I had planned to refer to that in a moment. government. We are three years into this Parliament, and there have been 86 Opposition day debates, yet this Charlie Elphicke: Will my right hon. Friend give way? is the first on lobbying. We know why Labour did nothing about lobbying. Mr Lansley: As I am referring to this point, I will give The hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) way to my hon. Friend? said in October 2011: “It was very, very, difficult to get right. We were persuaded by Charlie Elphicke: I want to underline my support for the industry that they would set up their own code”. the idea that no lobbyist should have a parliamentary pass. In particular, nine Labour MPs sponsor parliamentary But Labour did not put in place the statutory register it passes for union lobbyists. Does my right hon. Friend now calls for, and it so lacked a view during this join me in condemning that, and will he say, here and Parliament—notwithstanding what the hon. Member now, that it is wrong? for Hemsworth has just said—that it did not even respond to the public consultation on the Government’s Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important proposals that were published last year. point. As Leader of the House, I have made it clear, along with my colleagues, that parliamentary passes should Alex Cunningham: No one could be more aware than be made available for the purpose of supporting Members the right hon. Gentleman, as a former Health Secretary, of Parliament in their parliamentary responsibilities, that the tobacco industry lobby is one of the most not for the benefit of third parties. It is not to conflate powerful groups around this place, given its direct and unrelated issues for the Government to focus on this covert campaigns to delay legislation to introduce plain issue of third-party influence in the political system. packaging for its products, among other things. Will the The process must be transparent. If third parties are Government ensure, if and when they get round to involved, as inevitably they will be—that includes trade registering lobbying organisations, that such organisations union relationships with the Labour party, which are will be required to reveal whose payroll they are on, to absolutely fine—it must be transparent and not convert ensure greater transparency? For example, tobacco what should be a transparent third-party relationship companies might finance third-party organisations as a into the undisclosed control of, or influence over, front to promote their causes. parliamentarians. Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The right for Hemsworth have chosen the wrong person to attack hon. Gentleman said in response to my hon. Friend the on the question of tobacco control. When I was in Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) that the Bill opposition, I made it clear as shadow Secretary of State would introduce a register of lobbyists. Will he confirm for Health that my party would not engage with the that it will also include the regulation of lobbyists? tobacco industry, and we did not do so. In government, I made it clear that we would comply with the international Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman should talk to his framework convention on tobacco control, which precludes own Front-Bench team. [Interruption.] I am just answering the exercise of influence on our policy by the tobacco his question. The point is that it will introduce a statutory industry, and we do so. I was the person who sat down register of lobbyists, and in that sense it is a regulatory and talked to the Australian Health Minister, way back process. I will explain our approach later. in the latter part of 2010, in order to understand what Did the hon. Member for Hemsworth really think it she intended to do, and I was the one who launched a was sensible to have this debate just weeks before publication consultation on standardised packaging for tobacco. I of the Bill? What was he thinking? know that this Government are taking decisions in the best interests of the people of this country, including on Jon Trickett: You’re not going to have a lobbying Bill. health grounds, and that we are not taking them at the behest of any tobacco company. Mr Lansley: Yes, we are. Its purpose will be to introduce a statutory register of lobbyists, which is what we said Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Will in the coalition programme we would do. the right hon. Gentleman clarify whether the Bill will include a statutory code of conduct that lobbyists will have to Several hon. Members rose— abide by?

Mr Lansley: If I may, I will make a little progress Mr Lansley: As I have said, it will set out a statutory before giving way. I have not yet had an opportunity to register of lobbyists. respond to the hon. Member for Hemsworth, whose speech, I am afraid, sank into the sands of sloppy thinking. I Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Will my right hon. probably should not be surprised about that—people Friend give way? 175 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 176

Mr Lansley: No, I will not give way. It would be banks are going to hell in a handcart. Many of those better for me to make my speech and explain what we firms do not need lobbyists, because they have been are planning to do than simply to try to respond to here all the time lobbying as companies. I was quite more interventions. enthused by the right hon. Gentleman’s opening remarks, We did not hear from the Opposition about this but may we have a pre-legislative inquiry to enable us to subject; they did not respond to our consultation last get this right? year. It is interesting that the first time we heard from Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will know that I am them was when we announced that we would introduce an advocate of ensuring that the Government legislate a Bill before the summer, at which point they tabled after we have consulted and, whenever possible, sought their motion calling for the Government to introduce a scrutiny of the proposed legislation. I fear, however, Bill. This is an interesting concept: they are not jumping that if we were to go further in regard to pre-legislative on someone else’s bandwagon; they are jumping on scrutiny, we would not be able to legislate in the time ours. This is a flagrant example of that. frame we have set out. We published draft clauses, and In the event, the hon. Member for Hemsworth did the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee not offer any practical ideas; instead, he offered assertions produced a report on them that was not wholly supportive. and slogans masquerading as policy. He should have had I completely understand that. We have reflected—at the honesty to admit that the Labour Government put length, I freely admit—on what the Committee said, the issue in the “too hot to handle” box. They did not and I believe that we will now be able to proceed with resolve the complex nature of the problem, which has the Bill. It might not meet everyone’s objectives, but it been revealed by the divergent responses to the consultation. will do what is necessary to create the clarity, transparency The responses showed that we are far from achieving and openness that form the basis for us to ensure that consensus on the nature of regulation that is required. public confidence is achieved. The Government will set out to promote the culture of openness that best delivers the positive behaviours Mr Allen rose— and public confidence that we all seek. John Cryer rose— John Cryer rose— Mr Lansley: I will give way to the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). I apologise to the hon. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer); I will rose— give way to him in a moment. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab) rose— Mr Allen: The right hon. Gentleman is trying to legislate for and about Parliament and about lobbying Mr Lansley: Let me explain a little more, then I will in Parliament. It is therefore only fair that Parliament give way again. should have due process and be able to understand the There are two ways in which we can go about regulating Bill so that it can make it better on behalf of all parties. conduct in political life. We can create a comprehensive He says that the time frame is very compressed, but he rules-based system backed up by intrusive enforcement, has yet to respond to the Select Committee’s report to try to specify what everyone should and should not from nearly a year ago, so there was clearly a little bit of do pretty much all the time. That would be immensely ease in the time frame at that point. Will he please leave bureaucratic and costly, and would involve a constant the door open so that proper pre-legislative scrutiny can effort to keep up. It would create not a culture of openness take place before the Bill comes before the House, in but a “see what you can get away with” approach. order that all Members can understand these complicated The other way forward is to be clear about the issues and legislate better on lobbying than we seem to standards expected, based on the Nolan principles, and be doing at the moment? to ensure that all those who exercise responsibilities—and Mr Lansley: We will introduce a Bill before the summer all those who seek to influence them—are subject to the recess but, given the nature of things, we might not be necessary transparency in their actions and contacts, able to proceed with its consideration until the September and held accountable for their actions, so that we can sittings or later. That would afford people an opportunity, see who is doing what, and why. For those who seek to in the context of the Second Reading debate and elsewhere, influence the political system without the necessary to look at how we have resolved the issues. transparency, there will be clear sanctions available. John Cryer: I was listening to what the right hon. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I Gentleman said about the demands that the register think the right hon. Gentleman heard the valid point would place on lobbyists. Will that include having to that my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North provide financial information, such as how much has (Mr Allen) made earlier. This is a complex business. been spent on lobbying? Many Members on both sides Some of the big legal firms are now half lawyers and of the House think that that would be an important half lobbyists, and they say that they will refuse to be part of the jigsaw. involved in the proposed register because of client confidentiality. There are some really big problems, but Mr Lansley: I am not planning to do that at the moment. Members on both sides of the House want to get this We have made it clear that we are going to introduce a right. May we have a pre-legislative inquiry to enable us statutory register that makes third-party influence clear, to do that? This is a really difficult one. We used to so that people will know on whose behalf lobbyists with think that accountancy firms consisted of auditors and third-party clients who are seeking to influence us are accountants, but look at their track record now that the working. I listened with care to some of the interventions 177 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 178

[Mr Lansley] cases, Members and lobbyists lived with the letter and the spirit of those principles and codes, our system on the hon. Member for Hemsworth, and I acknowledge could command greater confidence. that there are important issues about the relationships between lobbying companies—and lobbyists who act Mr Spencer: Will the Leader of the House clarify that on their own behalf rather than on behalf of third barriers will not be put in place to stop constituency parties —and parliamentarians. But, frankly, is it not groups such as the Fire Brigades Union, the Police up to Parliament itself to be very clear about this? Federation and small church charities lobbying their Contrary to what has been suggested, I am not planning MP, as they should not be precluded from that process? to legislate within Parliament. For example, the issues that the standards code is rightly looking at in relation Mr Lansley: I think that we in this House should be to the interests of the Chairs of Select Committees and clear that our constituents have a right to lobby us as the interests of all-party parliamentary groups and how their constituency Members of Parliament. What is they are represented are important ones, but they are important is that we always behave in a way that is matters for the House to determine, as I shall explain. consistent with the code of conduct for Members so that we act as constituency representatives, not on the Several hon. Members rose— basis of any other inappropriate or improper relationships.

Mr Lansley: I want to make a little more progress Pete Wishart: The Leader of the House will know before giving way to my hon. Friends. that in Scotland we are progressing our register of lobbyists through a cross-party private Member’s Bill. Pete Wishart: And to me, too. Does he recognise the efforts we have made in the Scottish Parliament to try to deal with this problem, Mr Lansley: And to the hon. Member for Perth and and is that a model that he might indeed follow? North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), whose views I always respect. Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that As a Government, we believe that we must choose the there are a number of models in a number of jurisdictions route of trying to produce a transparent system. The across the world, which we have of course looked at and contrary route—a completely rules-based approach, rather considered carefully. What I am emphasising here is than one based on principles—is more likely to fail, as that we are going to proceed on the basis of a belief that too often rules then create loopholes that people will the greatest possible clarity and transparency is the key exploit when they can. In contrast, we are setting out to to achieving the confidence we are looking for. In order create an open and transparent culture that transforms for that to happen, what is particularly necessary is that behaviour so that people live up to these principles. As a the public can see who is lobbying whom. Government, we have pursued such an open approach, so that we can look with justification to promoting Grahame M. Morris rose— some of the most transparent actions ever. Mr Thomas rose— Mr Thomas rose— Mr Lansley: I will give way in a few moments. Mr Lansley: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman In that respect, there is a lacuna, in that when Ministers before. meet consultant lobbyists, it is not always clear to the We have published departmental business plans so public on whose behalf those consultants or companies that Ministers can be held to account on the development are lobbying. The purpose of the measures we will of policy. We have published more than 9,000 datasets introduce is to rectify that deficiency. from Government Departments, public sector bodies Of course, to make the transparency complete, further and local authorities. We have published details of steps may be required. In particular, lobbyist meetings with Ministers’ and permanent secretaries’ meetings with shadow Ministers, the relationships of external interests external individuals, including lobbyists. We have published to parliamentarians through all-party parliamentary details of gifts, overseas travel and hospitality received groups and Select Committees, including their Chairs, by Ministers and special advisers. We are now planning may require further steps. The latter issues relating to to go further with a Bill to create a statutory register of all-party groups and Select Committees are, as I mentioned lobbyists. earlier, matters for the House, and the Government Let me be clear, as the hon. Member for Hemsworth welcome the referral of these issues by Mr Speaker to was, that there is nothing wrong with lobbying as such. the Committee on Standards—now, of course, reinforced It is a necessary—indeed an inevitable—part of policy by its lay membership. I hope that the House will be making and the parliamentary process. Politics is about able to consider what steps to take on the basis of that the reconciliation of conflicting interests in society, and Committee’s advice. As I have made clear, the House the articulation of those interests is necessary to enable should proceed only on the basis of recommendations the political system to be effective. What is required is relating to House matters from its own bodies for this that the representation of interests to decision makers is purpose. I know these issues are not as straightforward made transparently, fairly, accountably and free of improper as some represent them, but we are now proceeding influence. The Nolan principles provide a high-level with them. framework, as amplified by the code of conduct for Members here and by the ministerial code. If, in all Grahame M. Morris rose— 179 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 180

Mr Lansley: I will give way later. Mr Lansley: I thought I had made it clear on many The question of the publication of shadow Ministers’ occasions that what we are setting out to do in the Bill is diaries in the same way as Ministers currently publish to create a statutory register of lobbyists in the context theirs is, of course, a matter for the Labour Front-Bench of seeking to make absolutely clear where a third-party team. influence is being exercised in relation to Ministers. I used to be Secretary of State for Health, as Members Mr Thomas rose— will recall. We published our diaries of meetings and when the British Medical Association came to see me, Mr Lansley: In the spirit of openness, I shall give way nobody was under any illusions about why they did to the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas). I so. That applies, too, to the Royal College of Nurses, hope he will indicate the willingness of his shadow other royal colleges, the Patients Association, the NHS Front-Bench team to publish their diaries in the same Federation—the list is endless. There was no doubt way as Ministers publish theirs. about the nature of the representations from people associated with many of these organisations. Where a Mr Thomas: A tiny group of lobbyists are third-party lobbying company is seeking to influence Ministers, the lobbyists. Will the Leader of the House be clear about permanent secretary or whomever it might be, the issue whether the Bill will include in-house lobbyists—Fred is knowing who their clients are. That is where the gap Michel, for example? lies, and that is what we are focusing on. [Interruption.] I do not know about Fred Michel in that sense. Mr Lansley: I am sorry, but I did not hear the hon. Gentleman volunteer any comment in response to my Mr Sheerman: Will the Leader of the House give question. To be fair, perhaps it is more the responsibility way? of the hon. Member for Hemsworth, so perhaps he would like to stand up and say that shadow Ministers Mr Lansley: For the last time. believe that in order to secure the necessary transparency, they, as well as Ministers, should publish their diaries. Mr Sheerman: I can give a straightforward answer in that I believe our shadow Ministers should publish their Grahame M. Morris rose— diaries; I see nothing wrong with that. The right hon. Gentleman has bounced that issue on us, but I imagine Mr Lansley: Perhaps the hon. Member for Easington that most serious Labour Members—and most of them (Grahame M. Morris) would like to speak on behalf of are serious—would say yes to that. Let me press the the Labour party and volunteer this confirmation on its right hon. Gentleman on this point. All the groups he behalf. mentioned lobbied him, quite legitimately, when he was Secretary of State for Health, but the key issue is Grahame M. Morris: It is very kind of the Leader of whether this lobbying register will go right across the the House to give way—I was starting to think that I sort of people that lobbied him, including the lawyers, had inadvertently offended him in a previous life. How the accountants and the big companies, so that everybody does he think the public will react when they find out is included in the register—not just a tiny circle of that, one in four Conservative peers and 58 Conservative professional lobbying companies representing only about MPs have recent or current financial links with private 25% of the lobbying industry. health care? Will the Bill address that? Mr Lansley: With respect, I think the hon. Gentleman Mr Lansley: I have no idea of the specifics of what has missed the point, which I have already made. The the hon. Gentleman talks about or of what precisely he gap lies where Ministers, permanent secretaries and—I means by what he said, but what I would say is that hope his hon. Friends will take the matter up—shadow transparency is important. If Members of this House Ministers need to set out who they meet and for what have financial interests in companies, they should be purpose and on whose behalf they are being met. When very clear about them in the Register of Members’ I met members of the BMA and the RCN, we were Financial Interests and they should be very clear that under no illusions about that. If I were to meet they do not act in Parliament in a way from which they representatives of a lobbying company that had a client could personally benefit through their relationship with in an industry and we did not know who the client was, those external interests. we would not have the necessary degree of transparency. That is what we are talking about: ensuring that we have Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab) rose— the maximum transparency.

Mr Lansley: Let me try the hon. Member for Warrington Mr Sheerman rose— North (Helen Jones). Would she, in the interests of transparency, like to volunteer on behalf of the Labour party to publish the meetings that her shadow Ministers Mr Lansley: I have already given way to the hon. have with external lobbying companies? Gentleman twice. I am grateful to him for agreeing with what I said, but those on his own Opposition Front Helen Jones: The right hon. Gentleman should Bench will not— understand that he is supposed to be answering the questions. Let me put this point to him. Will the Bill Mr Sheerman rose— that he proposes include regulations on in-house lobbying, such as the type associated with Fred Michel? Yes or Mr Lansley: I am sorry, but I will not give way again. no? [Interruption.] 181 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 182

Mr Speaker: Order. The Leader of the House has The Opposition motion calls for a Bill to be introduced made it clear that he will not give way. The hon. before the summer recess. I am pleased that, in this Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) has a beatific instance, they agree with the Government. Well before smile on his face, but he has been in the House for the motion was tabled, my right hon. Friend the Prime 34 years, and he knows that a Member cannot make a Minister made clear that a Bill would be introduced point by means of an intervention if the Member who is before the recess. The motion also calls for cross-party on his or her feet will not give way. talks. That comes as something as a surprise, as the Opposition have not previously demonstrated an interest Mr Sheerman: I was being helpful. in this issue. They have not sought constructively to engage the Government in discussion of it during the Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman chunters from a three years for which the introduction of a register has sedentary position that he was being helpful, but I think been under consideration—foreshadowed, of course, in that his concept of helpfulness is not necessarily shared. the coalition programme-—and they made no response to the Government’s consultation last year. Mr Lansley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It will be noted Now the Opposition say that they want a register of that Opposition Front Benchers, despite having tabled “professional lobbyists”. I still have no idea what they the motion, are not themselves willing to contribute to mean by that, or what is the logic of it. Are they referring the transparency that we all require. to everyone who lobbies Government or Parliament, As the House knows, the essential component to and who is paid? I do not think that they mean inspire confidence in the political system is the behaviour “professional”in the sense of having a relevant professional of Members of Parliament and those in the political qualification, so “professional” must mean “paid”, and system. We have responsibility and power. We must live that would capture an immense number of people. according to the highest possible standards and we must live by the letter of the rules, but, as past events have shown, it is even more vital for us to live by the John Cryer: Will the Leader of the House give way? spirit of the principles of public life. Many of the breaches and scandals that we have seen Mr Lansley: No. I am about to end my speech. in recent years arose not because the rules were unclear— although, in the case of the expenses scandal, they too In contrast, the Government’s proposals for a statutory often were—but because people had behaved badly, and register of lobbyists focus on cases in which further I believe that transparency is the key to dealing with clarity is required. The introduction of the register is that as well. I believe that the great majority of those in part of a broad package of measures to tighten the our Parliament and our political system set out to rules on how third parties influence our political system, behave well and do behave well, but, human nature along with reforms to ensure the accountability of being what it is, the minority who are tempted to do outside organisations that seek to influence the political otherwise need to know that they cannot engage in process. Together, those two elements constitute a further, sustained, concealed efforts to peddle influence. Their clear demonstration of our commitment to transparency activity will be brought into the open, and they must in the political system. expect to be held to account for their behaviour, for, as As was demonstrated by the response to the the Prime Minister has said, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Government’s consultation, the introduction of a statutory To secure that transparency was the purpose of the register of lobbyists is a complex issue, and one that has efforts that we have undertaken over the past three required careful consideration by the Government. Our years, and it is the purpose of our forthcoming Bill. proposals will deliver a register that will increase transparency without placing disproportionate burdens Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): My right on those who legitimately lobby Government and hon. Friend has said that Ministers must have a register Parliament. We will present those proposals before the and that it would help him if Opposition Front Benchers summer recess, and we will continue to work with those operated the same system, but haveIaresponsibility to who have engaged with our plans. make public the identity of people who are consulting me? More important, if they are people in my constituency, there I welcome the Opposition’s new-found interest in our may be a secretary who spends a small amount of money proposals, and hope that they will now seek to engage on assisting me. Am I required to publish that as well? constructively in making our political system more transparent. Perhaps, on reflection, they will agree to Mr Lansley: As my hon. Friend will know, the engage positively in the publication of shadow ministerial responsibilities that we have as Members relate to the diaries, in order to ensure that transparency exists from Members code, which does not include a responsibility their point of view as well. for us to publish the details of our meetings, the names On that basis, I ask the House to support the amendment of those whom we meet, and the purposes for which we and, if necessary, to reject the motion. meet them. That protection is afforded to Back Benchers and, of course, to shadow Ministers as well. We as Ministers are clear about the fact that we publish our Several hon. Members rose— diaries, on the basis that we exercise responsibilities and power. If shadow Ministers take the view that they have no power and are therefore not accountable for whom Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. they meet, for whom those they meet represent, and for Given the number of Back Benchers who wish to speak, the influence that those people are seeking to exert, they there will be a 10-minute limit on all Back-Bench will have to argue the case themselves. contributions. 183 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 184

1.36 pm enfeebled Parliament use lobbying ourselves very directly with Ministers to try to make our points, and many of Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): There us create all-party groups. Some of us lobby effectively, is no doubt that we need a lobbying Bill—we have although, speaking as someone who is lobbying for the needed one for some time, and we now need one relatively Government to keep their promise on bringing forward soon—but it is important for us to learn the lessons of proposals for a House business committee, which was in the past, and not to legislate in haste and repent at the coalition agreement, some of us are also obviously leisure. failing in getting the Government to fulfil their own promises. Government Front-Bench Members will not Robert Flello: Will my hon. Friend give way? be surprised to learn that we will continue to press that issue as well, however. Mr Allen: Now that we are down to 10 minutes, I My Select Committee has looked at the lobbying shall probably rush through my speech rather more question very seriously. We spent a long time interviewing quickly than I expected to, but if my hon. Friend will witnesses. We have eminent Committee members from allow me to get past my first sentence, I shall look different parties—some of whom are present in the forward to the bonus minute later. Chamber—and they might not in the normal shape of Nor should we respond to media stories by producing things be soul mates or agree on all matters, but they Bills. We should proceed in a measured, careful way, produced a report that the Government have had in and we should involve the House. Let us not forget that their possession for the best part of a year. It is a it is the Government who control Parliament, down to measure of how seriously the Government take this the minutest detail. That applies even to the scheduling matter that, first, the Leader of the House is chatting of today’s debate, and the use of our Opposition time to away and not listening to the Chairman of the Select do so. The Government will continue to exercise that Committee, who is asking him to do something he control until we elect our legislature and our Executive should have done nine months ago, and, secondly, he separately, as most modern democracies do. does not respond to this House, let alone to me or to my When it suits Governments—not just the present Committee members. That Ministers just do not bother Government, but many Governments in the past—they answering is regarded by many as rather cavalier. throw up their hands in mock horror at some transgression However, if a scandal is revealed by Fleet street and that has taken place in the House, or as a result of Ministers feel they need to show how tough they are by interaction with lobbyists. In many instances, however, taking action and doing something, suddenly a Bill they have been complicit, having either not legislated in appears, or the promise of a Bill is made, even before a timely fashion, or formed a corrupted relationship they respond to a Select Committee of this House. I with Members of Parliament and others. The most hope the Leader of the House will take these matters a obvious recent example is the failure to tackle Members little more seriously, because if he does, and he dares to of Parliament’ salaries, the introduction and promotion allow Parliament to be a partner in the process of of a culture in which the provision of allowances and making the law—rather than finding something off the expenses was substituted for such action, and the failure, shelf in the Department—he may be in serious danger over 20 years, to answer the question. of creating a Bill that will command all-party support I hope that we will not repeat some of those mistakes. and the support of this House. I hope that we will take the lobbying issue seriously, and will not merely use it as a way of buying buy off media Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Has speculation about the fact that a Member of Parliament— my hon. Friend had any communication in his capacity one of 650—has been found, thanks to the combined as Chair of the Select Committee from the Government resources of Fleet street and the BBC, to be allegedly on why such a response has been so long delayed? Have doing something that he or she should not be doing. any particular reasons been put to him, or is it his view that they simply have not noticed that there is a report Robert Flello: I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. to be responded to? Does he agree that that is exactly why a Joint Committee of both Houses should look at the issue pre-legislatively and in great detail? Mr Allen: I would be very happy to give way on that point either to the Leader of the House or the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Norwich Mr Allen: I think there are many ways to skin this North (Miss Smith) who very kindly came to our Select particular cat. If the Government are serious about Committee last week. They may wish to speak for creating an effective lobbying Bill—as many Back-Bench themselves, but there has certainly been a lot of Members and my Select Committee are—then where correspondence in trying to get a response. That is there is a will, there is a way. We can find a way to do expected—it is standard practice—and I do not know that, but the measure in its current form is a reactive whether I should raise the matter with the Chair. However, and short-term measure, and it is not part of a serious, I would hope that Select Committees of this House who well-thought-out reform package, either by the media, undertake serious study and scrutiny of Government who are keen to nail individual Members of Parliament, are usually responded to in a proper way, because that or, more seriously, by the Government, and, indeed, will help us to make better law, instead of having a previous Governments of different political colours. knee-jerk response because of one person being entrapped Parliament must take a lead on the specific issue of by the media—I am not expressing any view on that, as lobbying, but I very much hope we do not throw the this is still under study—that seems to me to put the baby out with the bathwater. Lobbying is a very important cart before the horse. On an issue where there should be part of our democracy. I imagine most Members of this support across the House, it seems that there is almost a 185 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 186

[Mr Allen] Government should publish details of meetings, and would he encourage his Front-Bench colleagues to give deliberate attempt to break any potential for consensus that undertaking to the House today? on, and longevity for, the legislation that we may bring forward. Mr Allen: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is As with the Dangerous Dogs Act, we are in danger of treating this matter a little more superficially than I introducing a dangerous Members of Parliament Act, would have hoped. There are some important questions, and we may well regret that in the longer term. This is and no doubt he can raise them, but I am not going to not just a news story or just a way of refuting Fleet get involved in that sort of frippery. I am capable of street in that corrupting partnership between Government going in that direction, but I will not do so because and media. This is about an important part of the fabric there are some serious issues here that concern the hon. of our democracy. Lobbying is important, and this is Gentleman as well as everybody else. about allowing it to flourish, and getting things right, My Select Committee looked at the possibility of and making sure the people who put it in such bad having a hybrid code of conduct to operate alongside odour are exposed. the statutory register. We addressed that idea carefully. Lobbying in the UK is currently unregulated. The It is possible to do it, and we believe that, just as we UK Public Affairs Council operates a voluntary register, commanded support in our own disparate all-party but registration rates are low. The Government agree Select Committee, it is possible for the House to come that a voluntary register is not working. A commitment to a satisfactory conclusion on that. It would mean that to introducing a statutory register of lobbyists was organisations and individuals on the register would sign included in the coalition agreement. My Committee up to their particular industry’s code of conduct. looked at this. We took oral evidence over many sessions We must use the time we have available to do some and produced our report. I hope the Government listen pre-legislative scrutiny. The Bill will be introduced very to what we have said, which was not damning, saying, soon. I hope the Leader of the House will give us a “This couldn’t happen.” Instead, we suggested how month or so in September, so that we can do the job something can be introduced in a way that is sustainable. properly for the House. The first fatal flaw we asked the Government to look at was the fact that so much of the lobbying industry would not be covered by a statutory register. Just covering 1.49 pm third-party lobbyists does not do the job. There are lots John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Yesterday, I took a of different figures available, but we found 100 organisations phone call from a constituent who wanted to lobby me that were third-party lobbyists. Spinwatch, at one end on a particular local issue relevant to him and his of the spectrum in this debate, says there are between neighbours. This morning, I met a person from a public 3,500 and 4,000 full-time lobbyists. This proposal does relations firm who wanted to discuss an issue relevant not do the job, therefore, because it is one-eighth of a to one of his clients. As I walked through Portcullis House lobbying Bill, rather than a Bill that covers lobbyists in today, I passed a large number of MPs talking with their entirety. constituents, the media, lobbyists, pressure groups and The second flaw is that we do not have an effective many other organisations. In many ways, they were definition of lobbying, so that we all know what we are doing exactly what an MP should be doing. I then talking about—and so that lobbyists know what we are headed to this Chamber, passing through Central Lobby, talking about, and that Members of Parliament talking the Members’ Lobby and the Aye Lobby before arriving to someone in either a private or public meeting, perhaps here. with a tape recorder or video camera concealed and As hon. Members will realise, I am trying to demonstrate recording them, know exactly where the lines are. That that lobbying is a fact of political life. The reality is that will enable us to produce something that is sustainable lobbying is an important part of our political environment and that people can live with for many years to come. and process. It is a legitimate activity that is a significant My Committee therefore also asked for a clearer definition. contributor to our political system and political activity. We came to the conclusion that we were only scratching It brings to our system a number of important benefits the surface of the issue. We therefore proposed what we that we would be the poorer for if they were not called a medium regulation system as a starting point available: it allows MPs to hear different sides of an for a statutory register of lobbyists. A lot of Members argument and different prospectuses. MPs themselves have got great ideas, and I hope there will be a process lobby on a variety of issues when we hold passionate by which they can be fed into our law-making process. beliefs or on matters that relate to our constituencies. There needs to be that starting point—that foundation Indeed, we participate in and set up all-party groups, or bedrock—that we can build on in future years. Let us many of which are involved with lobbying. Arguably, put this in place. Some may regard it as the lowest lobbying allows us to become better informed and more common denominator, but that in itself is a good starting aware of the issues, and, on occasions, we can even have point, so that if problems arise, those colleagues who our minds changed by the evidence put before us by come after us can build on something that commands a lobbying groups. I therefore fully support the right of consensus of support in this House. businesses, charities and other organisations to lobby. However, what is important is that lobbying or John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is campaigning groups supporting a particular cause should making a very measured and reasonable speech, particularly carry out such activities in an open and transparent in respect of his point about responding to Select way. What we all clearly want to avoid is undue pressure Committees. Does he agree that one of the basic principles being exerted or inappropriate activities being carried we should endorse is that both the Opposition and the out. It is equally important that an individual’s position 187 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 188 is not compromised, such as through payments being certain charities and organisations that are campaigning made that are incompatible with that person’s office. In to influence the legislative process and Executive a perfect world, there would be no need to change the decisions—yes, that should include the trade union current arrangements, but introducing a lobbying register movement. can and should help to increase openness and transparency Trade unions are an important part of our industrial and, importantly, to improve the public’s confidence in relations and our political process. They are undoubtedly our political system. one of the most powerful lobbying organisations in the country, receiving substantial sums from the taxpayer; Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I have been in July 2010, the trade unions received nearly £6 million. listening carefully to what my hon. Friend has been I believe that 23 members of the shadow Cabinet have saying and he is talking a huge amount of sense about received funding from trade unions and, as my hon. the fact that our entire life involves being lobbied. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said, However, I am slightly at variance with him about nine Labour MPs are sponsoring parliamentary passes whether the proposed register should encompass only for trade union lobbyists. Powerful bodies that, in effect, those people who are paid as third parties—we do not bankroll one of the main political parties must be seen know on whose behalf they are lobbying—or all the to be open and transparent and must be open and others who lobby, such as his constituent and the other transparent. That is in their interests, as well as in those interest groups he mentioned. Does he agree that the of the public. This is an opportunity to help improve important thing is that groups such as Keene Public Affairs, the transparency and accountability of the trade unions. an organisation that undermined one of my all-party In particular, when they are lobbying, it should be clear groups recently, ought to be named, ought to be on the what their true membership is and what the implications register and ought to have to declare who their clients are for strike ballots and for the payment of the political are and that the register should not apply to ordinary levy. All should be open to scrutiny and proper lobby groups of the kind that he described? confirmation.

John Stevenson: I agree, and I believe the thrust of my Mr Thomas: For the avoidance of doubt, we do not argument will be very much in tune with what my hon. have a problem with those who work for trade unions Friend suggests. and who lobby being covered by a more comprehensive The crucial issue is public confidence. I accept there piece of legislation than the Government are considering. will always been the potential for the unscrupulous or We think that all in-house lobbyists should be covered the criminal—it was ever thus—but having some level by the legislation. That is the point of difference between of registration will create greater openness, which I us and the Government, and between the hon. Gentleman would like to think will help drive standards of behaviour and the Government, too. to a much higher level, one that is acceptable to the public. As I have said, it would also improve the public’s John Stevenson: I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman confidence in our political system. I will therefore be confirm that the Labour party will support the inclusion supporting the underlying principles that the Government’s of trade unions, because it failed to do any of that in its forthcoming Bill will bring forward, and I look forward time in office. Labour had 13 years in office and we had to seeing what they have to propose and considering it absolutely nothing from the Labour party. As with in the usual way. much of the present political agenda, Labour is playing catch-up with Government policies on a range of issues, Mr Allen: The hon. Gentleman is, as usual, making as well as with the views of the public. This is another a thoughtful and careful speech. He supports his example of Labour trying to pretend that it is on the Government’s proposals, but does he agree that everyone right side of the argument. in the House would benefit from this issue being given a proper pre-legislative period? That would allow Members, Several hon. Members rose— wherever they are, to make the sort of representations he is making, either to a Select Committee or to a Joint Committee, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- John Stevenson: I have taken enough interventions. on-Trent South (Robert Flello) suggested, so that when The reality is that Labour is so far behind public opinion the Bill comes back for its Second Reading we are all and the Government are in tune with it. I commend the way better informed about what we can achieve and coalition Government for going out to consultation on how we can do that? this issue and now bringing forward legislation; a proper register of lobbyists and a fair set of requirements for disclosure is the correct way forward. I would also like John Stevenson: We hope that today’s debate will help to see a set of criteria for the funding of campaigns by to inform Members of the House and bring the issues third-party groups during elections. I believe that at the to light, and, thus, inform the Second Reading debate. last election about £3 million was spent by third-party As I said, I will support the underlying principles of groups on campaigning, and it is right that that should the Government’s forthcoming legislation. I would, however, be regulated in the proper way. Any reasonable person wish to ensure that it is as simple and as straightforward would consider these reforms to be absolutely appropriate. to administer as possible. It should not and must not They are all part of rebuilding the public’s confidence in over-regulate the industry. Clearly, I accept it must be our politics and a way of encouraging all those engaging comprehensive in its approach to ensure that all appropriate in the political process to act, and to be seen to act, organisations are registerable, and ensure a fair and openly and transparently. It is sad that the Labour level playing field. Organisations in the commercial party has been so slow to engage with this issue but, as I sector must be included, as should trade organisations, said, it likes to follow our lead. 189 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 190

1.57 pm for a fee of £250,000. Months before that, Tim Collins, a not particularly lamented Member of this House, John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): I echo promised access to just about everybody and anybody earlier comments made about lobbying. I have always in the Government. supported a lobbying Bill to create a register of lobbyists in a transparent and properly regulated way, but I have We can go back before that. I have mentioned lobbying no objection to lobbying per se. It is part of everyday scandals in living memory, but probably the doyenne of life—or it should be if we are doing our jobs properly. political lobbyists from the 1930s and 1940s up until the We get lobbied on a weekly basis, on all sorts of issues, 1970s was Commander Christopher Powell. His name by church groups, mosques, gurdwaras, temples, community is probably not familiar now, but years ago he was very groups and all sorts of individuals. A woman came to well known and for a number of years he had an office see me a couple of weeks ago and said, “You are in the House of Commons. It sounds extraordinary opposed to the sell-off of the Royal Mail, aren’t you?” today that a political lobbyist who represented all sorts When I said that I was, she said, “Well, on that basis of clients should have an office in this place, but he did you should also be opposed to gay marriage.” I did not for quite a long time. quite follow the logic of that argument either, but she Members might remember the scandals attached to had the right to lobby me, and she did so, albeit in a Ian Greer in the 1980s, which eventually made the front novel way. pages of just about the entire national press as well as What worries me is when large concentrations of the broadcast media in the late 1980s and early 1990s. unaccountable wealth and power are brought to bear in Let us be balanced: there was also the cash for access the lobbying industry. Funnily enough, Jonathan Aitken scandal that involved Derek Draper, another person said something similar when he was an MP and large who is not particularly lamented by Opposition business consortiums were lobbying for the contract to Members—at least, I hope he is not. I can say that with build the Channel tunnel. At that time lobbying was in some passion, having dealt with him years ago. full swing, and he—surprisingly in the light of subsequent events—said: As I said earlier, I by no means condemn the political lobbying industry. In fact, I suspect that most lobbyists “What worries me most is that usually lobbying is genuine in the sense that it stems from little interest groups and concerned do a decent job, do it honestly and are perfectly prepared citizens. Here we see the Panzer divisions of big business, their to be transparent about it, but there is always the heavy artillery and tanks trampling over all the small people’s temptation to cross certain lines unless accountability interests which I want to see better defended.” and transparency are built into the system. Most of us would probably want to see those interests better defended and certainly the Prime Minister seemed Mr Sheerman: Speaker after speaker has talked about the to want to see that three years ago when he said that importance of openness, transparency and accountability. lobbying would be the “next big scandal” to hit British I absolutely agree with that, but does my hon. Friend politics. Lobbying has been the perennial scandal in agree that we should also allow the little person, not just British politics within living memory and probably before the well-heeled and well-suited person, to lobby? Lobbying that, too. should be open to everyone; the problem is that too The Prime Minister’s reference to lobbying was three often those who can afford to pay a lot of money can years ago and since then we have seen two private lobby more effectively. Members’ Bills. One was in my name, and I offered it to the Leader of the House as a Government Bill, but he was a bit shy about taking it on. The other was in the John Cryer: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his name of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline question, but I think I covered that at the beginning of and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). We also saw a my speech. Most of us these days hold regular advice Government consultation followed by countless surgeries—for me, and, probably, for most right hon. commitments from various Ministers that a Bill would and hon. Members on both sides of the House such be produced, as we are always told, “in the near future.” surgeries are a weekly business. Last year, the then Parliamentary Secretary, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), promised a The days when MPs never went near their constituencies Bill before he was moved in the reshuffle. His successor, and did not regard themselves as constituency Members the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. are long gone. There was once a national MP for Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith), is on the Blackpool called Walter de Frece who, despite the fact Treasury Bench and has, I believe, promised a Bill twice that he was the Member for Blackpool, never went near on the Floor of the House—but there is still no Bill. the place. In fact, he could not find it on a map. He struggled to find Britain on a map, because he lived in The Prime Minister has repeatedly promised a Bill in Monte Carlo. He came to Britain twice a year for the Prime Minister’s questions over the past three years and Budget debate and for Ascot, yet he was elected for after the last lobbying scandal a few weeks ago, the years and years and was regarded as a successful Deputy Prime Minister promised what he called “head constituency MP. While he was here, he would get a pile to toe” political reform, including a register of lobbyists. of House of Commons notepaper and sign the bottom, That was on 3 June. I have no idea what he meant by and then his secretary would fill in the rest. It sounds that, but I suspect that he did not have much more of an extraordinary, but because he managed to reply to a few idea what he meant either—he never normally does. letters—this shows how things have changed—he was We still have no Bill, yet the scandals come regularly regarded as a particularly brilliant constituency MP. and frequently. Only last year, the treasurer of the Tory Nowadays, that has changed beyond all recognition—not party, Peter Cruddas—we will all remember this—had even in the safest seat could an MP from any party get to resign after promising access to the Prime Minister away with such behaviour. 191 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 192

Let me return to the demands that I think the register At my constituency surgery in Alness, a lady came to should place on lobbyists. The criterion that it should ask me about the regulations for herbalists. I have only cover third-party lobbyists is unfair on the third-party written to the Minister on her behalf and I consider lobbying industry. In-house lobbyists—that covers all that to be absolutely the kind of thing I should be doing sorts of organisations and companies—should be forced as a constituency MP. On another level, as a member of to provide information, which, as I said when I intervened the Treasury Committee and a former member of the on the Leader of the House, should include financial now completed Parliamentary Commission on Banking information. Big companies, wealthy organisations and Standards, I have received a considerable amount of even wealthy individuals can spend millions on lobbying, evidence from a wide range of bodies. It is sometimes and that sort of information should be available. difficult to distinguish whether they are giving me evidence or lobbying me. I am absolutely certain that in both Mr Allen: I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech and cases my ability to have a reasoned discussion with the learning a bit of parliamentary history, too. Does he witnesses who have appeared before me has depended accept that the work of the Select Committee could be a on my ability to access different points of view and starting point in defining what a lobbyist is as well as different thoughts coming from different parts of the who is in and who is out? The Committee has suggested financial services industry. that anyone who is in a paid, professional role of It is right that we should be open to lobbying in the lobbying should be covered. That would include in-house sense that we should hear what different people have to lobbyists, of course, as well as trade associations, trade say. Our job is to assess what is said and come to a unionists—that answers the point made by the hon. reasonable decision in our deliberations, whether in Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson)—think-tanks, Select Committee or when considering legislation. As campaign groups, charities and many others who would sometimes happens, the tendency to dismiss lobbyists be required to register. Does he agree that getting the and lobbying as a wrong process is to misunderstand definition right is the starting point of a good Bill? how Parliament should work. We are really talking about access to power for the John Cryer: That is crucial. The definition in my Bill purposes of diverting what power might otherwise do. covered anyone who lobbied “for commercial gain”, Part of the problem that we will have with the legislation which is similar. The starting point that my hon. Friend is working out where power is. With Ministers, it is suggests is perfectly reasonable and would, I suspect, pretty straightforward. If I go and lobby the Secretary cover all the relevant companies, associations, trade of State for Energy about what is happening at Dounreay, associations and trade unions, as well as the big NGOs it is pretty clear why I have gone to see him. If Babcock and people who hire third-party lobbyists or who have does the same, it is also pretty clear what is happening. in-house lobbyists. Most trade unions and federations The problem is when people have access to those in have in-house lobbyists, which is fair enough. power in a way that is not revealed. An example was given this morning when Sir Mervyn King made his last The important principle is that we must get transparency appearance before the Treasury Select Committee. The into the system. We are talking about a big industry; Chairman asked him a question about lessons learned. lobbying in this country is a successful industry worth He said that one of the most important things was that £2 billion. There is no reason why it cannot continue to the Prudential Regulation Authority, the body that will flourish and be successful as long as it is open and control the banks, had the support of Ministers and transparent, so that we know exactly what lobbyists are Parliament such that the kind of lobbying that took doing, who they are meeting and what sort of resources place in the past—when bankers went to their supervisors are being spent on achieving their aims. to ask for a lighter judgment on supervision and the telephone calls he mentioned to No. 11 and sometimes No. 10—could not happen. That is what we really have 2.7 pm to seek to expose. John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman cited Babcock. for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer). Let me pick up That is a prime example that shows why the Bill must on his last point: what we are after is transparency. I cover everyone. Babcock is a multinational company think there is agreement across the House on the need that has a rail division, a nuclear division and a defence for transparency and to ensure that big business, big division. Simply to say that Babcock has been to see a money and big power are accountable in politics. Today’s Minister provides no transparency. So it has to be all debate is very much about how best to try to achieve lobbyists. that or, at least, to find a starting point. I was grateful that the hon. Member for Hemsworth John Thurso: I am going to disagree with the hon. (Jon Trickett) began, as many other Members have, by Gentleman in a moment for a simple reason. In relation stressing the importance of good lobbying and the fact to visiting a Minister, the key is not in the Bill or in any that we in Parliament cannot do our jobs without a legislation that we might pass. The key is the ministerial degree of lobbying. Members have obviously mentioned code; the key is the fact that the visits by that company their constituents and, like the hon. Member for Leyton or any other company will be published. I agree with and Wanstead, I have regular surgeries across 3,800 hon. Members who said that there should be more square miles. I travelled 207 miles last weekend to do information; wider detail should be published about surgeries at diametrically opposite ends of the constituency, meetings. At the moment, the quarterly register often celebrating national care homes day by visiting all the just says “general discussion”, and that is not good registered homes in the constituency. enough. I urge those who are responsible for the ministerial 193 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 194

[John Thurso] Grahame M. Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? code to look at toughening it up in some way and perhaps publishing the code a little more often than John Thurso: I have taken two interventions so I quarterly. Such things could be done tomorrow; they do would like to get to the end of my speech. not require legislation. I hope that the Bill will deal with third-party, non-party The second point is the difference between in-house controlled expenditure and measures to regulate non-party and third-party lobbyists. I think we are all going in the actors who seek to influence elections. This touches on same direction, but it seems to me that one has to start the whole question of the trade unions. The best way is somewhere. To me, the third-party lobbyists are a good simply for the trade unions to be treated in the same place to start. As the hon. Member for Nottingham way as any other body according to the third-party, North (Mr Allen) said, it is better to make a start than non-party controlled expenditure rules. If we had those to go for perfection. If Oxfam turns up to see the rules, requirements made of trade unions would be Secretary of State for International Development, it is made by way of alterations to the third-party controlled pretty obvious what is going to be talked about. It is far expenditure rules rather than to any trade union rules, more important that when Messrs Grabit and Nickit which is absolutely the right way forward. turn up to lobby on behalf of an unknown firm, we It is right that we look at lobbying and make sure that have a registration of who they are and what they do. we have a register. It is too late for cross-party talks. We That is far more important than making every single tried that with the House of Lords and look where it company that has someone in house working for them got us. I am scarred by that. We should just get on with register that fact. it and make sure that it happens. In my party’s 2001 conference motion on regulation My inclination is towards pre-legislative scrutiny. I of professional parliamentary lobbying, which I am doubt that it is going to happen, but the Chair of the sure was on everyone’s lips at the time, we said: Political and Constitutional Reform Committee might “No parliamentarian … at Westminster should be a director take a leaf out of the book of the hon. Member for of, an employee of, receive any reward from or hold a stake in any Chichester (Mr Tyrie). He went ahead with it himself of the duly registered professional parliamentary lobbying companies. on the Treasury Committee and I am sure that his … A statutory register of such professional lobbying firms should Committee will just go ahead and do it. It will probably be set up and supervised by the Commissioner on Parliamentary be an invaluable report. I look forward to supporting Standards.” the Government in the Lobby and making sure that In 2006, my colleague David Howarth, the then Member matters come to fruition and we see a Bill as soon as for Cambridge, sought to insert an amendment into the possible. Companies Bill to cap the amount spent on lobbying. The then Government declined to accept it. So my 2.19 pm party has a long history of seeking to do something about lobbying. The important thing now is to be clear Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): We have heard who is doing the lobbying. That is why registering the several interesting speeches, especially from my hon. professional lobbyists is so important. Friend the Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Committee, that have tried to grapple with how we (SNP): Is not one of the problems of the recent scandal define and register lobbyists. The fundamental point, as not so much the lobbying but the payment of politicians, everyone in the House knows, is that one of the biggest who may be part of the operation of that lobbying. It is political problems of our time is the loss of faith in not the lobbying per se; it is the payment, the money, politics and politicians, and we have only to walk the the feeling of corruption. streets of our constituencies to see that. People feel that they are not listened to and that they have no way of influencing events. They might have some regard for John Thurso: I am delighted to welcome the hon. their own Member of Parliament—indeed, polls show Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) to his that people often do—but they feel that the big decisions place. That is something I touched on at the beginning are taken elsewhere, in a place where their views are of my remarks. He makes an important point. In the not heard—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for recent scandals involving a Member of this House and Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) wants to make an three Members of the other place, nothing in this Bill or intervention, I shall allow him to do so. any other Bill on lobbying would have changed anything. What they did is already against the rules. My advice to Mr MacNeil: I just wanted to suggest that the case any Member of this House is that the day someone the hon. Lady makes is exactly why we want independence comes to them and says, “Would you like £24,000?”, —thank you very much. they are being offered a sting. None of us is worth that amount. Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman will find that the I was once almost the victim of a sting. A gentleman polling in Scotland is no different from that elsewhere. came to see me and asked me if I would chair his There is a loss of faith in politics and politicians in company. I said, “Yes, but first I need to do due diligence many developed countries, and it ill behoves him to and see a set of accounts. Secondly, you have to look at make cheap political points about that serious issue, my CV and see whether I have the skills you want. with which we all must deal. People think that there is a Thirdly, if it is ever anything to do with Parliament, I distinct political class of people who move in and out of can have nothing whatever to do with it.” Needless to lobbyists, think-tanks and Parliament. I know that that say, I never heard from him again. is not true and that there are many hon. Members from 195 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 196 diverse backgrounds—obviously not those in the Cabinet— constituent has an absolute right of access to their but we have to bear responsibility for allowing that Member of Parliament. My constituents are not slow perception to exist. That is why dealing with lobbying is about making their views heard, as I suspect is true of important, so that is one of the vital things—not the those of other hon. Members, but that is different from only one—that we must do to open up Parliament. If commercial lobbying, so the legislation must make that we continue to allow people to have the impression that clear. some individuals have privileged access and may buy We have to deal with those who are directly employed the right to influence legislation, we are digging our lobbyists, but they would be allowed to carry on as own graves. It is not lobbying itself that is wrong, as before under the Government’s plans. What would happen many hon. Members have said, but lobbying behind the to big firms such as Capita, Grant Thornton and scenes when people do not know about it. PricewaterhouseCoopers that operate across government in many ways, but include lobbying among their functions? Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Legislation cannot work unless a code of conduct is (PC): Will the hon. Lady give way? attached to it. Parts of the industry already have a voluntary code, but without a code of conduct, there is Helen Jones: In a moment. no real point of having a register, because one then There has been promise after promise on lobbying, cannot deal with breaches of ethics, including by removing yet nothing has been done. We have been reminded that people from the register. Without full publication of it was the Prime Minister who said that lobbying was details and meetings, lobbying will still be shrouded in “the next big scandal waiting to happen”. secrecy because people will not know what is going on. That was followed by further words, but no action. The Conservatives did not commit to introducing a statutory Mr MacNeil rose— register in their election manifesto, despite the fact that when the Prime Minister made his famous “Rebuilding Helen Jones: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman trust in politics” speech, he said: once, so I hope that he will forgive me if I continue. “it’s time we shone the light of transparency on lobbying and The fairly shabby little proposal before us is a reaction forced our politics to come clean”— to a particular story, rather than an attempt to get it has taken a bit of time to do the washing. things right. It is important that we have proposals that The coalition agreement contained a promise to introduce command cross-party support in the House and that, if a statutory register of lobbying and the former Minister possible, they are subjected to pre-legislative scrutiny. In for constitutional affairs, the hon. Member for Forest of my time in the House, a lot of bad legislation has been Dean (Mr Harper), promised that he would publish passed in a hurry, but a lot of legislation has been made proposals in January 2011, but then everything went better as a result of pre-legislative scrutiny, so I do not quiet until recently. It seemed that no one was responsible understand why the Government are shying away from at all. that process. We need to get the proposals right for not just this Parliament, but future Parliaments, and we The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss need a clear definition of “professional lobbying”, a Chloe Smith): Will the hon. Lady give way? clear code of conduct and strong sanctions for breaches of that code. Why on earth are the Government so Helen Jones: In a moment. reluctant to go down that road? The latest scandal forced the Government into action, but their proposals that we have heard about so far are Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am in almost entire agreement full of holes. It appears that they will cover only a with the hon. Lady that we need to move at a steady and narrow section of third-party lobbyists, but that is sensible pace so that we reach a proper conclusion. Can simply not good enough. As we heard from my hon. she explain why Government and Opposition Front Friend the Member for Nottingham North, only about Benchers—as expressed in the motion and the amendment 100 organisations would be covered, yet the UK Public —want to get everything done by the summer recess? Affairs Council defines lobbying as “in a professional capacity, attempting to influence, or advising Helen Jones: I do not think that Labour Members are those who wish to influence, the UK Government, Parliament”— arguing for that at all. We want a full and comprehensive and so on. proposal, not a half-baked one that covers only part of the industry and that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) said, could damage part Jon Trickett: My hon. Friend makes an important of the industry. If a register is to end bad practices, it point. Third-party lobbyists that operate legitimately has to be backed by proper sanctions. We know that and ethically feel threatened by the idea that the transparency is essential, so why on earth are we not Government will leave open an enormous barn door for going down that road? After all, the Prime Minister in-house lobbyists. There will be a devastating impact kept saying that sunlight was the “best disinfectant”—I on third-party companies if their client organisations begin wonder what happened to that phrase. to hide away what they were doing by taking on more lobbyists in house. Will she comment on that point? Even those involved in the industry are unenthusiastic, to say the least. The director general of the Public Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes a valid point Relations Consultants Association called the proposals about who should be included on the register and the “unfit for purpose”. The chair of the National Council importance of getting the definitions right. Many people for Voluntary Organisations said: have referred to lobbying by constituents, and any “Basically it’s so weak now there’s no point in us joining it”. 197 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 198

[Helen Jones] take the opportunity to shed some transparency and show our constituents that lobbying is not only open to Surely that is not good in the long run for the Government them but is very much part of the work of an MP. —of any colour—for Parliament and for the reputation In the first month that I did that, I highlighted the of politicians as a whole, so I urge the Government to fact that I had had meetings with, for example, the think again. They need to understand what is at stake, National Farmers Union. NFU representatives are which is no less than the reputation of politicians and extremely effective lobbyists on behalf of farmers in my the political class as a whole. constituency. They are extremely knowledgeable in a If we are to get it right, we must try to come to an specialised area, and it is very important that an MP in agreement. It has been said from the Front Bench that an agricultural constituency such as mine listens to we have no problem with regulating trade union lobbying what they have to say on a wide range of agricultural activities. However, the Government should not confuse issues. I agree that when I meet a paid public affairs the regulation of lobbying with the funding of political professional, whether for a public affairs firm or employed parties. By all means let us have a debate on that, but it by an organisation, I can reveal to my constituents that will have to include the role of commercial companies I have had such a meeting. That is not something that and their donations, organisations such as the Midlands we as MPs are not able to do. Industrial Council, and so on. To try to push the two That brings me to the main point that I want to make together to attack one lot of political funding but not in this argument. There has been much discussion today another is not a sign of serious government; it is a sign about what the Government ought to be doing, but as of a Government wanting to score cheap political points, we heard from the hon. Member for Nottingham North rather than to sort out the problem, and I hope they will (Mr Allen), the Chair of the Political and Constitutional not do that. Reform Committee, there is much that we as parliamentarians can do to ensure that the public are 2.30 pm aware of what we do, know when we meet with lobbyists and understand that lobbying is an inherent part of our Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I support democracy. That transparency could be emphasised in the amendment tabled by the Prime Minister and his some of the other things that Parliament does. For right hon. Friends. From my point of view, lobbying is example, not everybody knows that all-party parliamentary entirely healthy and integral to our democracy. This is a groups must publish who is sponsoring that group. point that we have heard from a range of speakers this They also have to publish when they work with an MP afternoon. I like to point out to my constituents that to take a room—the House of Commons accounts lobbying is named after Central Lobby. Central Lobby must show who hired the room. has given its name to this activity because any constituent Transparency in relation to early-day motions would can come to Central Lobby while Parliament is sitting, also be healthy. I wonder whether colleagues will support fill out a green card and summon their MP to the Lobby me on this. I can honestly say that I have so far resisted so that they can bend their MP’s ear on the issue that signing a single early-day motion. We have seen how matters particularly to them. We should be looking to they are sometimes used by lobbyists as a way of encourage and support lobbying and try to remove showing that they have done something in Parliament, from it the taint that has suddenly emerged, as though it when in reality it is not a particularly effective tool. were intrinsically bad and liable to corruption. Some colleagues are more enthusiastic about early-day One of the things that is so effective in our democracy motions than others. That is another area where we as a is that most MPs are available to their constituents, to Parliament and as MPs could do more to show listen to them lobbying on a wide range of concerns. transparency. Every Friday I have an open surgery where people can What do we say about organisations such as 38 come to raise issues with me. We should be proud of Degrees? That organisation has done a wonderful job in lobbying in our democracy. It enriches all our activities bringing to our democratic attention a wide range of as parliamentarians. views held across the e-mail communication channel. I am pleased to hear the progress that the Government Given that it plays such an active role in encouraging have made on transparency. I welcome the fact that all our constituents to lobby us on a wide range of issues, it Conservative Cabinet Ministers list the details of the would be interesting and informative to know how such meetings they hold with a wide range of organisations, an organisation is able to pay public affairs professionals and in particular the fact that they name the private and others to encourage constituents to write to their companies which employ public affairs representatives MPs. That is the level of transparency for which we as to come and lobby on behalf of their organisations. parliamentarians could take responsibility, rather than That is an advance in terms of transparency and I just relying on the Government to pass legislation. Such should have thought that the shadow Cabinet would transparency is a matter for us as MPs to consider. We welcome the opportunity to show that level of transparency can do these things as individuals. We do not need to as well. rely on legislation. Many of the issues being raised today are ones that we as MPs can address ourselves—[Interruption.] Iam Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Does my hon. being heckled from the Opposition Front Bench. Yes, I Friend agree that lobbyists, particularly in the charitable am a Parliamentary Private Secretary. I have taken sector, should show some responsibility? Quite often I it upon myself to publish all the meetings I have with receive a fistful of postcards from a particular charity, paid public affairs professionals and organisations that purportedly from my constituents who have signed lobby me, either in the constituency or here. We as these cards, but when I write back to those constituents parliamentarians are entirely free to do that, and we can with a response to the postcard campaign, they often 199 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 200 say, “I don’t know anything about this”, and we find the secrecy of substantial elements of it and the influence out that somebody’s family has put in four or five cards that is brought to bear as a result of certain arrangements on behalf of other people. A little more responsibility that lobbyists can make regarding resources, access and needs to be shown in that respect. various other things. Those concerns relate not only to third-party lobbyists but are across the board. Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend makes an important Perhaps we ought to apply a comparative principle in point. I have had the same experience. I then have to dig devising what we want to achieve by having a register of into my files and discover the original document. I send lobbyists. If we think about it for a moment, we realise that back to the constituent, who is often quite surprised that what we—the parties set up in this House—do in to discover that they have been encouraged to lobby me seeking votes is lobby the electorate, and we must do so in that way. in a reasonable, bounded and temperate way. A number of sanctions have been laid down in law for a very long Thomas Docherty: I find myself agreeing with the time to ensure that lobbying of the electorate is restrained hon. Lady.Does she accept that what her own Government and that we do not go beyond those bounds. They are are proposing would not cover charities or organisations known as the electoral offences. like 38 Degrees? There is the offence of bribery. As far as lobbying is concerned, if a Member of this House was asked, Harriett Baldwin: What I accept is that the Government “Would you like to be a director of my company? I’ll are the ones taking the steps to publish meetings with give you £24,000”, that is a very straightforward organisations that represent themselves with their public approximation of the offence of bribery as it relates to affairs professionals. The Government are doing much this House. There is also the offence of treating, which more in the way of transparency than the Opposition means saying to the electorate, “I’ll buy you a slap-up were able to do in 13 years of power. I would love to see dinner, and drinks at the bar are on us, provided you members of the shadow Cabinet publish details of their vote for us.” The parallel, as far as our affairs are meetings, and I strongly hope that as a result of my concerned, would be offering a week’s holiday or substantial persuasive remarks this afternoon, those are steps that trips around the world in order to exercise some advantage. the Opposition will soon take.

Grahame M. Morris: That is a really important point, Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady says that the Government because there is a distinction between what happens in have taken great steps on transparency, so will she this place and what happens in local government, for encourage them to publish the pre-1997 papers relating example. If I was serving on a planning committee and to devolution legislation, which should be open and owned a building firm, it would not be good enough for transparent for the people of Scotland? I look forward me simply to say, “I declare an interest”; I would not be to her support. able to take any part. All that happens here is that people declare an interest, but they are still taking Harriett Baldwin: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I money from private health care companies and then am a fervent supporter of us all being better off together, voting through the Health and Social Care Bill. so I will support whatever is in the interest of our doing that. Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend emphasises the power The point I am trying to make is that there is an awful of Sunlight soap in other parts of the body politic, as lot that Members of Parliament can do as individuals opposed to our proceedings. to help advance the cause of transparency. We should not all sit and wait until legislation is passed. We can There are two other main electoral offences that take some responsibility in being open and transparent. relate to our lobbying of the electorate, and the Secretary I look forward to the day when that includes the meetings of State has referred to one in relation to the content of of the shadow Cabinet. his proposed Bill. He said that we want to know who is lobbying us and that the Government will legislate to fill that gap. That is the offence of personation. We need 2.40 pm to know who is exercising the vote. If we were to try to Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Like defraud the electorate by having someone vote in place many hon. Members, I am lobbied every day, by my of the person who really had the vote, an electoral electorate and by people who have an interest in the offence would be committed. things that I am interested in as an MP. It is a perfectly The final major electoral offence is that of undue honourable process. Provided that it is carried out in an influence. That is the parallel offence that is wholly absent honourable, straightforward and transparent way, lobbying from the proposed legislation as it relates to our proceedings. adds to the substance of Parliament and does not Undue influence is not about whether someone is paid detract from it. or given a weekend away, or whether someone else However, there is rather more to the issue than simply stands in their place; it is about someone exercising whether lobbying is carried out in a transparent way. It various means of persuading another person to vote for is a question not just of whether sunlight is the best them that are beyond the cause of reasonable lobbying. disinfectant, but whether in addition to sunlight we That seems to me to be the crux of the issue. The need Sunlight soap in order to scrub the process clean. proposals do not provide for an overall register of all That is what the public remain concerned about. As lobbyists, with sanctions and the ability to throw people hon. Members have said, it is not just about the transparency off it, properly to take account of the question of of lobbying, but about the way in which it is carried out, undue influence in the lobbying process. 201 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 202

[Dr Whitehead] but in our constituencies. Thirdly, we have made some progress, albeit not much, on how the matter can be I am sorry that that appears to be the way the properly resolved. proposed legislation is proceeding, because it could We need to give the greatest care and longest time to easily be fixed by some fairly brief discussions between the problem of definition. We have touched on the role the parties. After all, this is a matter that affects not just of pressure groups, which include charities, as well as one particular party or Government. The legislation industry representatives—a phrase that could cover a needs to stand the test of different Governments of multitude of sins. Local groups could be well funded or different parties. It is an issue that concerns all parties well advised or simply put themselves together on the and this House. Therefore, it seems to me that above all spur of the moment to lobby us in our constituencies on the legislation must be proceeded with on the basis of a particular interest or issue. The words “professional what the parties think is the right way forward. lobbyist” have been used without much qualification It is shocking that the Government have taken a year during the debate. More clarity on who would come to respond to the all-party Select Committee inquiry on under that description is crucial if we are to get things lobbying and what can be done about it. That is way out right. of line with what is normally expected of Government responses to Select Committee reports. That ought to Mr Thomas: I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern be rectified immediately. Pre-legislative scrutiny of what about the need for clarity from the Government about is proposed would not derail the legislation unduly. For definition. Has he seen the Political and Constitutional example, the Energy and Climate Change Committee Reform Committee’s report, especially its recommendation was recently given six weeks to consider the entire draft that the Government should Energy Bill before it came to the House. Pre-legislative “clarify whether its definition of lobbying includes lobbying scrutiny would give a vital opportunity to get something advice, or only direct representation, to avoid confusion regarding that works across the House. who should, and should not register as a lobbyist”? I am a little disappointed that much of this afternoon’s debate has been something of a knockabout rather than Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to about principle. I have tried to inject into the proceedings hear that I have seen the report; as I am still a member a little focus on what we are really about, which is of that Committee, from time to time I read our reports. principles for legislation. Between us, we must ensure I take his point, but if he will forgive me I will come that the legislation works for the future. If that takes a back to it in my closing remarks. If I forget, no doubt he few weeks of discussions between parties to get it right, will intervene. and if there is a little give and take with regard to how it will work, that will be a good thing for the House. If it Jonathan Edwards: Does my constituency neighbour ensures that undue influence is not exercised in the agree that we also need to look at the relationship House by lobbyists, if it is clear about who should be between the Government and big business? Earlier this included in the rules, and if the public are confident that year, the World Development Movement produced a the right people are included in those rules, that, too, document stating that a third of Ministers had links to would be a gain for us all. finance or energy companies involved in the exploitation of fossil fuels. We have not seen much movement towards I hope that the Government will not decide this creating a low carbon economy in the UK. Does the afternoon that this is about bashing the Opposition’s hon. Gentleman understand why people are concerned? motion and getting their amendment through; it is about trying to get something through that is good for us all. If that means both sides laying the motion on the Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Table in order to proceed, perhaps that would be a good point, and I entirely respect his view. I sometimes think thing for the House. I think that above all we need to get we underplay the obstacles that outside interest groups the legislation on lobbying right so that everyone benefits have to go through to get to and influence Ministers. We in future. It is not about one party scoring a few points are talking about creating not only new legislation, but from the other in the short term. legislation on top of an already stringent set of rules. Again, I am not trying to duck the issue, but I will come back to the hon. Gentleman’s point when I come to how we should resolve all these differences. 2.49 pm I turn to what I call “donor lobbyists”, the strongest Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South part of whose argument appears to be the strength of Pembrokeshire) (Con): Today of all days, I should draw their bank balances. I am interested that the Labour Members’ attention to my register entry on this topic. party has made concessions on that, particularly with At the beginning of the debate, there seemed little regard to the influence of trade unions. For some time, chance of consensus, but as it has gone on issues have a concern among Members on the Government Benches emerged on which Members on both sides of the House has been how we could have a register of lobbyists that can be pleased that progress has been made. We have, did not include everybody. Members on both sides of however, either underplayed or glossed over three specific the House have made progress on that during this points, the first of which is obviously one of definition. debate. Despite numerous speeches on the topic, we are still I shall make only two further points, the first of pretty unclear about precisely who should or might be which is our strange obsession with what we seem to caught by the proposals. Secondly, we have, I believe, call these days “professional lobbyists” without any real slightly underplayed the positive contribution made by qualification of what they might be, although the Chairman lobbyists to many of our lives—not only in the House, of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee 203 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 204 went some distance towards that. Plenty of people charities. If the consequence of our trying to resolve a consider themselves to be professional lobbyists but political issue in this building is that we end up deterring have many other strings to their bows and do many people from supporting valuable charities, we will not other things for the organisations they represent. Are have done a good job in the eyes of the public, but a they or might they be considered professional lobbyists very bad one. under the proposals? We have yet to find out. The issue gets to the heart of the complexities of the It strikes me as odd that we seem to gloss over some debate. I hope we can reflect on the views held by of the big organisations. Tesco has been mentioned, Members on both sides of the House, and particularly probably unfairly, as an organisation that might not fall the view of the Chair of the Select Committee. We under the proposals because everybody knows what it should turn a deaf ear to calls for great haste to answer stands for. Actually, that is not right. Tesco might come the question of why we have not done something. into this building to lobby on fuel prices, planning, food We can see from a handful of the contributions this labelling or any number of issues that come under its afternoon that we could legislate in great haste and jurisdiction. We have to be careful about drawing some make an absolute horlicks of this. It would be much random arbitrary line above which some people go. more sensible for us to work our way steadily through Rather than re-establish public confidence in what we the issues raised, particularly that of definition. If we do, we could end up causing great disappointment to do not do that, rather than having been able to tick a those interested in the proposals and do ourselves box and sign off an aspect of the coalition agreement, considerable harm in the process. Likewise, there are we will have created a situation in which, when the next plenty of well financed, organised and documented lobbying scandal comes along—and it unquestionably pressure groups—campaigning against or in favour of will—people will ask what the register was all about and major wind farm developments or things such as HS2—that why it did not prevent the scandal from occurring. We are unquestionably engaged in very sophisticated lobbying. will have to look them in the eye and say, “Of course it It will not surprise hon. Members to hear that I want never stood a chance”. more lobbyists; I think they are a good thing and bring We must take time. The Opposition proposal, dare I great variety and strength as long as we treat them with say it, is a little cynical; the Government amendment sufficient recognition and responsibility. Doing anything makes a great deal more sense. The Government are that might deter people from being able to lobby us right not to be bullied or rushed into producing something pretty well however they wanted would be a counter- hastily that proves incomplete. I have no difficulty, with productive road down which we should not go. all my history, in recommending that those who are We seem to have overlooked some existing legislation— interested should vote against the Opposition proposal the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Whenever I have and in favour of the Government amendment. wanted to know what has been going on in the darkened corners of ministerial offices, I have simply put in a 2.59 pm freedom of information request and have probably acquired Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): There have most of the information I have wanted about who is been some interesting and thoughtful contributions to meeting whom and on what basis. Let us not reinvent this debate. We must acknowledge the Prime Minister’s something that already exists and to which every member perception when he predicted that lobbying would be of the public has perfect access. “the next big scandal waiting to happen”. Lastly, I want to touch on two things. First, there is However, despite the bluster and sticking out of chests the positive contribution of lobbying, which some of us on the Government Benches, the coalition has had seem to have slightly overlooked. Personally, my life three years to bring in legislation, but a register of would grind to an absolute halt if lobbyists representing lobbyists was again noticeably absent from the recent all sorts of different groups did not supply me with lots Queen’s Speech. Let us be honest: it was only the most of useful, expert information on a range of subjects and recent scandal exposed in the “Panorama” documentary completely free to the taxpayer. If we had to get our that led the Government to consider introducing a Bill offices to pay for that information, the taxpayer might before the summer. have something to say about that. Let us not for one minute make it more difficult for responsible organisations Let me read out a quote: —charities, industry pressure groups or anything else—to “It is vital that we act quickly and decisively to restore the provide us with a constant stream of high quality reputation of politics. Too much unacceptable behaviour has information, which makes us more likely to produce gone unchecked for too long, from excessive expenses to sleazy decent legislation. lobbying practices. The people of Britain have looked on in horror as revelations have stripped away the dignity of Parliament, Having read the Government’s amendment to the leaving millions of voters detached from the political process, Opposition proposal, I am confident that we are pointing devoid of trust in the political classes, and disillusioned with our in the right direction on resolutions. We need to avoid system of government.” reforms that are simply a partial list of names on a piece That is a statement from the Conservative party manifesto; of paper. We must not over-regulate a responsible industry; it is not very often that I agree with anything I read in that might unintentionally make the life of the charitable there. That was the commitment that the Conservatives sector, in which I have some interest, all the more made in recognising the problem and that something difficult. If we end up in a situation where people who needed to be done about it. So what has happened? We donate to charities or contribute to charitable activity have had three years of Conservative-led coalition think that their donations may become the subject of government and we have seen precious little action in political debate or some public declaration, that might relation to that commitment. We saw the former Foreign make them, for all sorts of sensible reasons, much less Secretary resign over the Werritty scandal and the cash- inclined to make their generous contributions to those for-access case in which the Conservative party treasurer, 205 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 206

[Grahame M. Morris] I recently witnessed this kind of corporate influence in action during the east coast main line debate. No Peter Cruddas, who was mentioned by my hon. Friend matter how much public opposition exists against the the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer), privatisation of rail services, a Government who have offered “premier league” access to the Prime Minister surrounded themselves with advisers and lobbyists with for £250,000 a year. It is not a distinguished record. I corporate interests and connections remain fundamentally am not shirking our responsibilities. The documentary wedded to a policy of open competition in all public that was broadcast quite recently was shocking. It related services, prioritising profits over people. Where is the to one Member from this place and three from the other voice of the public being represented? place, two of whom were members of my party. They I am sure that Members in all parts of the House should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Some will, like me, have received many hundreds of e-mails sanction needs to be applied against such individuals. and representations from constituents regarding the Clearly, there is the ultimate sanction for a Member of Government’s proposals on plain cigarette packaging. I the House of Commons, but for those in the House of found it absolutely extraordinary that within weeks of Lords there is no really effective sanction. the appointment of professional lobbyist Lynton Crosby, There are a number of things we have not done. who had apparently lobbied against plain tobacco Despite the warm words from Government Front Benchers, packaging in Australia, as the Conservatives’ election we have not curbed the improper influence of lobbyists, strategist, there was a change in policy. The links with changed the ministerial code to bar Ministers and officials private health care companies are wide and extensive in from meeting MPs on issues where the MP is paid to this House. As I said in an intervention, the Our NHS lobby, or required companies to report their annual campaign reports that one in four Conservative Lords spending on lobbying. I think that a Liberal Democrat and at least 58 Conservative MPs have recent or current Member referred to that; indeed, it was a promise that financial links to companies or individuals connected to the Lib Dems made. private health care. Over 30 of the companies who are There can be no trust in politics when the public listed as corporate partners of Reform have recent or believe that politicians are for hire to the highest bidder. current financial links to Lords and MPs. After the most recent scandal, all Members of Parliament It is not the miners but corporate lobbyists at the holding directorships, advisory positions and consultancy heart of Government who are the enemy within. They roles are viewed with suspicion, whether that is justified undermine our democracy, which is increasingly becoming or not. I want to put down a marker about second jobs a plutocracy with access to Government and decision and MPs spending in excess of 20 hours a week working making going to the highest bidder and corporate interests outside Parliament. That raises questions about whose at the expense of the public. interests they are really serving. I do not have time to work 20 hours outside this place; I put all my efforts Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I am into representing my constituents. I do not know how following the hon. Gentleman’s argument carefully. I Members can take up directorships and consultancies. think that he needs to be careful, and the whole House That must put a question mark into the minds of their needs to take care, in defining who lobbyists are and constituents; if not, it should. what their interests are. Several times he cited Reform, All Governments have been tainted by the revolving which is an independent think-tank with a cross-party door of former Ministers and special advisers who, in board set up in the same way as many other think-tanks retirement, find themselves in lucrative jobs with companies across politics, such as, in the past, the Institute for they once dealt with as Ministers or advisers. That point Public Policy Research and the Smith Institute, which was well made by my hon. Friend the Member for have been aligned with the Labour party. That is very Newport West (Paul Flynn) in his Westminster Hall different from talking about someone who is a paid-for Adjournment debate on 2 November 2011. In my opinion, corporate lobbyist working for a professional lobbying this is nothing short of corruption—the same kind of company or an individual company. We must be careful thing that we would condemn in other countries across about this. the world. The cosy relationship between some politicians and Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful for that intervention. lobbyists was clear to see when the Prime Minister The point I am trying to make is that nothing is always invited professional corporate and private health care as it first appears. Quite frequently, all-party groups are lobbyist Nick Seddon into the heart of Government. sponsored by pharmaceutical companies. Often, think-tanks Whose interests will Nick Seddon serve following his with certain financial backers are coming up with certain previous roles as a deputy director of Reform, which is policies, and when we look at who is funding them we listed as a free-market think-tank extensively funded by can see why that is happening. Perhaps I could have private health care and insurance companies, and as selected a better example. If I was wrong, I acknowledge head of communications at private health care company that. Circle? Does that name ring any bells with anybody? At The overwhelming majority of lobbyists understand the heart of Government, corporate interests are over- and even welcome the need for a statutory register. represented to the detriment of the public. We do not They understand that in a democracy, the Government want to be running a corporate plutocracy in the United need to be open to influence from all parts of society. I Kingdom. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for have always considered myself to be the voice of the Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) for his article in today’s Morning unheard. There is nobody else to speak up for the people Star. It is an excellent piece that makes some terrific I represent. It is right that we should speak for the smallest points about the excesses of corporate influence in the community group as well as listening to the point of United States. view of the largest commercial operator. We should hear 207 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 208 from everyone, from individual citizens to multinationals. how it works. MPs have the ability to debate and argue, We want an engaged, interactive citizens’ democracy. but not necessarily to change the course of the world. Without robust statutory regulation, the perception will Then there is the lobbying of Ministers, who have a continue that big business, the powerful and the few are much greater and more direct Executive power—a decision- able to gain private access to the decision makers at the making power, rather than merely an influencing power. expense of everyone else. The two types of lobbying need to be regulated differently I hope that the motion will receive the support of the and separately. whole House, given its emphasis on cross-party negotiations, There is a difference between those on the Opposition the implementation of a statutory register and a clear Front Bench and the Government Front Bench. Opposition code of conduct that is backed by sanctions in the event Front Benchers have the hope and possibly the expectation of serious breaches of the code. I will leave it at that to of power. Those on the Treasury Bench have the reality give others a chance to speak. of power and lobbying them can have a direct influence on what is happening. They should therefore be subject 3.11 pm to a higher standard of openness and transparency than Opposition Front Benchers, who ought to be Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is entitled to their smoke-filled rooms, although as they a great pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member are socialists, the rooms will have no smoke in them, for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). I learned that the because they do not approve of that sort of thing. You Morning Star still exists. I confess that I was unaware of know what I mean, Mr Deputy Speaker. that. I thought that it had gone with the Berlin wall and all that. Given the difference between Government and Parliament, we need to legislate only for Government. As so often in this Chamber, we are not discussing a Parliament has all the powers that it needs to regulate new problem. The issue of lobbying and undue influence its own affairs, if only we had the courage to use them. goes back into the mists of time. Delving back not too We have a Committee of Privileges and a Committee on far, who can forget Sir John Trevor, a former Speaker of Standards. We are entitled to expel Members who the House who was expelled both from the speakership misbehave. We may do so not according to a detailed set and from Parliament for accepting a 1,000 guinea bribe of rules, but according to whether we believe, as a from the City of London to promote a Bill on orphanages? House, that they have undermined the reputation of the Interestingly, the Chairman of the Bill Committee, House and have not behaved like honourable Members. Mr Hungerford, received only 20 guineas for his service. Such a decision is not justiciable in any court in the land He, too, was expelled from the House. I reflect that the because we are the High Court of Parliament. The Speaker was worth almost 40 times as much as the regulation of our own affairs is not challengeable in the Chairman of a Committee. I wonder whether the relativities other House, as was established by the Bradlaugh case, have changed in this more modern age. when an atheist was refused the right to sit in Parliament. Sir John Trevor and Mr Hungerford were expelled by We have the right as a Chamber to admit and expel this House for being unduly lobbied. Interestingly, they Members. When Members abuse the rules, we ought to were unduly lobbied by another arm of the state: the exercise that power and clear up politics directly ourselves. corporation of London. It is worth bearing it in mind That does not require legislation to come through before that, contrary to what the hon. Member for Easington the summer recess; it simply requires us to have the said, it is not only wicked businesses that are involved in willpower and the backbone to do what we are able to lobbying; it is something that happens across society. do already. Everyone has an axe to grind regarding the issues that face this House. They therefore come to us to lobby. In and of itself, that is a perfectly legitimate activity. Grahame M. Morris: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. As my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire Gentleman’s flow. I compliment him on his speech. Will (Harriett Baldwin) so rightly said, it is an historic right he clarify what the consequence is in the other place of every one of our constituents to come to Central when peers commit a similar offence? Lobby, demand our presence and tell us their views on whatever subject is important to them. That is a wonderful Jacob Rees-Mogg: The House of Lords, when historic right. It is a pity that people do not know about considering what it could do about the expenses scandal, it and do not use it more. We ought to encourage our discovered that it had the right to imprison a peer for a constituents to come and lobby us in that way. There is Session. It decided that it must therefore also have the a nobility in lobbying that must not be lost in the midst power to suspend a peer for a Session. However, it may of the discussion about what is, in effect, corruption. only do that Session by Session. It cannot expel a peer Let us try to use the terms differently and not allow because a peerage comes from the sovereign, whereas lobbying to become a polite term for criminality, dishonesty our position in this House comes from the people to and corruption. whom we can be sent back. To get rid of a peerage Within British politics, there are essentially two types requires primary legislation. That was done in 1917 to of lobbying. There is the lobbying of Members of remove a group of peers who were fighting for the Parliament, which is perhaps the triumph of hope over Germans and the Austrians during the first world war. experience, whereby people come to see somebody such It is open to this House to do that with the other place. as myself, a junior Back-Bench MP, and say that they We may pass an Act of Parliament to remove a category want me to do this, that and the next thing and to of peers who have committed offences. The House of change legislation, thinking that the Prime Minister Lords itself can suspend peers Session by Session. It and the Leader of the House hang on my every word. can repeat such a suspension if it believes that the Sadly, I have to tell such people that that is not quite offence is egregious enough. 209 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 210

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] It is important to remember that we can also punish those who are in contempt of Parliament. I agree with This House also has the power to punish individuals my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe outside the House. If people are in contempt of Parliament, (Damian Collins) that we need to use those powers to we have the ultimate power to imprison them. I am not remind people that they still exist. By allowing them to proposing that we should use that power extensively, wither on the vine, we have weakened the ability of but if lobbyists try to bribe or corrupt Members of Parliament to clean up its own Act. Had we done so Parliament, it is not unreasonable that Parliament herself over the expenses situation, we would not be in the should impose the punishment on those lobbyists. That sorry state we are now in with politicians being held in would be a matter of us regulating ourselves, using the very low esteem. power given to us by the British people, rather than I urge the Government, rather than rushing hastily to farming it out, through legislation, to the courts to legislation, to consider whether the powers that already decide whether parliamentary privilege has been breached. exist can be used to clean up our own act, and can be used in a way that overcomes the difficulties of definition Damian Collins: When the Culture, Media and Sport that the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett), Committee took evidence during the phone-hacking the shadow spokesman, spoke very clearly of in his inquiry, we found that many of Parliament’s powers to speech. That is the centre point of legislating, but it is summon and even imprison people for misleading the hardest point to define. Parliament or for being in contempt of Parliament are historical. It is not certain what their legal status is and I will leave hon. Ladies and Gentlemen with this whether they have been superseded by subsequent thought: what happens when a constituent comes, legislation. accompanied by his accountant, as happened to me last week, to complain that he has been defrauded and Jacob Rees-Mogg: The power of the House to regulate wants me to do something to help him? His accountant its own affairs is one of the fundamental building blocks is paid, is representing his views, and might be the only of the constitution. That power cannot be given up, member of his firm, but he is clearly lobbying me. And except by this House voluntarily surrendering it, which then, what do we think of the Whips, who lobby me on it has not done. No court in this land can question a an almost daily basis on whether I am to vote Aye or decision made by this House to regulate its own affairs. No, and are often successful in their desire to get me It is arguable that the European courts could, but we going in the right direction? Should we have a register can take away their right to do so by a simple piece of of them to ensure that their behaviour is even more legislation. If we are to legislate, therefore, it should be proper, benign and pious than it already is? to reinforce our self-regulatory powers and to remove the possibility of challenge. That would clarify what we can do, and we should then go ahead and do it. 3.23 pm Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It is always a John Cryer: Of course, technically it is not actually an pleasure, although not always easy, to follow the hon. offence for an MP to accept a bribe. A motion was Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). passed—I have not got the information in front of He is always informative and entertaining. me—in the 17th century that specifically condemned MPs who accept bribes, but it has never been enforced. I have been a Member of this House since May 2010. When I was considering standing for selection as a Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely candidate, I had to think carefully about whether this correct. My point about Sir John Trevor is that we was something I wanted to do. I had concerns about the should use the power this House has to expel a Member male culture and ethos of this place, and the impact for taking a bribe. That is not the same as a criminal that that would have on me as a woman MP. On that, offence. Sir John was entitled, had he wished and had my worst fears have been more than realised. I also had his electorate wanted him back, to stand for Parliament concerns about leaving a relatively successful career in again. As it happened, the King promoted him to education where I was relatively well respected to become become Master of the Rolls, so he did not do too badly a Member of Parliament, when the path to Parliament out of it in the end. is hardly littered with respect and trust. I think we all There is a difference between the penal power of know the reasons for that: it is not just the scandal in Parliament and statute law and the requirement of an the previous Parliament but the view, widely felt out offence for a statutory punishment. There is no need for there among sections of the public, that we are all in it a specific offence for Parliament to act, which is a for ourselves and that election to Parliament is an open benefit because it is easier for us to expel a Member, and door to all kinds of experiences and funding not available it leaves the person expelled with a right of appeal to his to the general public. constituents. The British people would then be the ones I know that the vast majority of Members of this to make the final decision. They would be entitled to House are here because they genuinely want to make a decide whether the lobbying the Member had been caught difference to the lives of the people we represent. We up with was of a kind that they approved or disapproved may do that in different ways and we may have different of. Ultimately, it is right that we should trust the democratic priorities, but that is the reason why we are here. Scandals forces of the electorate to judge our behaviour rather connected with lobbying, like those highlighted in the than parcelling it out to the judiciary, who I think are in press in recent weeks, simply reinforce the negative view a less strong position to judge whether what has happened of politics and politicians, and the view that the relationship is acceptable, right and proper in the political context in between lobbyists and politicians is far too close and is which it has taken place. built upon mutual greed. 211 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 212

It is going to be really difficult to regain the trust of Damian Collins: Does the hon. Lady agree that we the public, but surely a good start is to put in place a must proceed with some care in terms of how we put statutory register of professional lobbyists that is backed together a register of lobbyists because, in the most up by regulation and includes a clear definition of what recent scandals, it has not been lobbyists seeking to we mean by lobbying. When I say a clear definition, I entrap parliamentarians but journalists masquerading mean a definition that will make sense to the people as lobbyists? Many people who consider themselves to who vote for us. That should not just include third-party be lobbyists as part of a voluntary registered scheme lobbyists, but in-house lobbyists and anyone who lobbies already would never engage in such practices. for commercial gain. Our constituents understand that the majority of all-party parliamentary groups provide Pat Glass: Absolutely, which is why I said at the information for parliamentarians, and work to influence beginning that lobbying has a long tradition in this MPs on issues of concern. All-party groups that support place and should continue. But we need to deal with the work of parliamentarians in education, care leavers, that lobbying, or as the hon. Member for North East social mobility, multiple sclerosis, breast cancer, ovarian Somerset said, that corruption, which is about gaining cancer and autism—all groups that I am happy to say I commercially. am involved in—and the charities and even companies Finally, I want to say that Labour did put a voluntary that support those groups, are not lobbying Members code of practice in place in 2009 but, like so many other with anything other than good intentions. It is right that voluntary codes of practice, it simply did not work. We those groups have access to politicians, and that is what need a statutory code of practice; something that has our constituents would expect. teeth and will bite. Our constituents need to see that, However, it is also clear to our constituents that we this time, we mean business. That will happen only if need regulation for all-party groups funded by private there is a statutory code of practice in place that works, companies and for organisations that are bidding for so that those who breach it—MPs, peers and lobbyists—are Government contracts, offering lucrative jobs to former dealt with severely. This will not in itself reinstate trust Ministers, MPs and Peers, and whose profits depend on in politics, but it will be a good place to start. Government policy. At its most basic, this issue is about the rich and powerful gaining access to those in government who make decisions, very often financial decisions, that 3.30pm can affect a company’s bottom line. That access is not Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to available to the rest of the population. Although we follow the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat may never be able to stop that completely, it is important Glass). I should start with a confession; I am married to that we regulate it and make it transparent. a lobbyist. He is a consultant NHS psychiatrist and chair I have to admit that I have received very little of what of the Westminster liaison committee for the Royal I would consider to be lobbying for commercial gain, College of Psychiatrists and provides advice on mental but that is probably because I tend to involve myself in health to all political parties. Having made that confession, areas of activity that do not attract lucrative contracts. I shall confess that I am also a lobbyist; I lobby shamelessly However, as the Government privatise more areas of on behalf of my constituents in South Devon. health and education it will be harder to avoid. It is All of us would agree that lobbying is at the heart of therefore ever more important that we have a statutory our democracy and the way it works. It is a tragedy that register in place that includes not only a clear definition lobbying has acquired a dirty raincoat image. I suggest of professional lobbying, but a code of conduct that is that we should not throw the raincoat away; we should so clear that our constituents will understand it and give the raincoat a wash. I welcome the statement from approve of it, including a headline that forbids inappropriate the Leader of the House that this is all about transparency financial relations between lobbyists and parliamentarians. in representation to decision-makers. But the word I know that that is difficult. As the hon. Member for “transparency” has become devalued currency. We are North East Somerset said, this is the crux of the matter. talking about the kind of transparency that one sees on It will be incredibly difficult to define, but we know an ambulance window, allowing people to see out but exactly what we are talking about and so do our not to see in. constituents. We need to look at how transparency applies in our We need strong sanctions for both parliamentarians democracy today. At the heart of the matter is the and lobbyists where breaches occur. It might just make question: who are the decision-makers in our democracy a difference to lobbyists if they knew that if they today? As a Back-Bench MP, I find that very many of breached or even attempted to breach the code, they the decisions made in Parliament take place in rooms to could be prevented from working in Parliament again, which we are not invited. That is important. Who and that in the most serious cases matters could be influences the decisions in those rooms? Very often, in referred to the police and ultimately result in jail sentences. this day and age, it is election strategists. I have no Despite the Prime Minister’s promises that he would objection to election strategists but if we are to have deal with this, all he has done is to kick it into the long transparency in representation to decision- makers, we grass and he has only retrieved it following yet another must have transparency in who election strategists, for scandal. However, I am less concerned about how we all political parties, are also representing outside that got here. Let us be glad that we have got here and let us very important role. get it right this time. If an election strategist is also working as a paid My concern is that the Government’s proposals are lobbyist on behalf of big alcohol, big tobacco and other late, are weak and will not stop the most insidious and interests around the world, it is very important that lucrative lobbying. The Government, either inadvertently people can see what those interests are. It is important or deliberately, failed to deal with the real problem. that that extends to both Front Benches, and it would 213 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 214

[Dr Sarah Wollaston] Lobbying reform is now essential if the Government are to retain the benefit of the doubt among our constituents be greatly to the credit of Opposition Front-Benchers if that they serve the common good and that Ministers are they accepted that they should also keep a diary of who not subservient to the private interests of millionaires meets them. This has to apply across the board to all and big business. As my hon. Friends the Members for those making decisions on our behalf in Parliament. Warrington North (Helen Jones) and for Easington I am glad to see that the hon. Member for Nottingham (Grahame M. Morris) made clear, the public’s concern North (Mr Allen) has returned to his place because I is that much of the lobbying industry is hidden from completely agree with him that there is no legislation in public view. A lobbyist is not obliged to identify who this House that could not be improved with pre-legislative they are, what they do, the sources of their finance, who scrutiny. I urge the Leader of the House to look at this their ultimate client is and how much is being spent. In important point. What would be the harm in bringing short, there is no requirement on lobbyists or those who this to a Committee to allow not only Members of this want lobbying done to operate in the open, in the light, House to make sensible recommendations for change, where their conversations and the responses of those but people outside? We will have a better Bill if we have they lobby can be scrutinised more effectively. pre-legislative scrutiny. Let us not be afraid to allow The best lobbyists, it is true, operate according to an people outside the House to see what we do in this place ethical code, but comparatively few are signed up to the and who makes representations to us, and let us have a various codes that exist, so without clear legal force and better democracy. teeth, such voluntary codes of conduct will clearly not be taken seriously enough by all in the industry. There have been a series of revelations about the scale of big 3.34 pm business’s influence on key Government legislation, such Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): This as, for example, the Leader of the House’s disastrous has been an extremely interesting debate. As my hon. Health and Social Care Act 2012. I am not against the Friend the Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) set lobbying of Government by big business—I welcome it out, we hope that this debate will prompt the Government on the same basis as I welcome all lobbying—but it has to recognise the urgent need to introduce a statutory to be done in the open. It would appear, however, as a register for all who lobby professionally and a clear result of the Government’s proposals, that lobbyists code of conduct, including a ban on financial relationships working directly for big business groups will not be between lobbyists and parliamentarians and clear sanctions required to register—an extraordinary situation—to abide where the code is breached. Those sanctions should by any code of conduct or to spell out what they are ultimately include preventing serious offenders from lobbying about. practising by removing them from the register. Already the concern exists that too often it is the In his opening remarks, the Leader of the House did voice of one or two corporate lobbyists that gets heard not explain why the Government were against a clear in Downing street, the Department of Health and statutory code of conduct for lobbyists, so it would be throughout Whitehall, not the voice of ordinary people good to hear more from the Deputy Leader of the in Britain. There are other international examples of House about that and to hear him explain how a clearer, tougher measures being taken on lobbying, register that covers only third-party lobbyists will clarify notably in the United States, in Canada and in Australia, the Tesco problem—to paraphrase the hon. Member all of which have tougher legislation than Ministers are for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), proposing here. who is no longer in his place—and help us to find out Ministers claim that because records of ministerial what big organisations are lobbying the Government meetings are published, in-house lobbyists do not need about. It is not often clear or self-apparent what an to be included on any register. It is worth remembering, organisation is lobbying about, given their range of however, that The Independent carried out an analysis interests. of who Ministers met in the first 18 months of their As our motion makes clear, we are willing to work on time in office. Out of 4,000-plus declared ministerial a cross-party basis, so that all our collective interests meetings recorded by the Government, only seven were can be served. That point was made by my hon. Friend with lobbying firms. Perhaps the Ministers did not have the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) much contact with lobbyists, but that is difficult to and the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr believe given last year’s revelations about McKinsey’s and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). It is in the long-term influence on the Bill introduced by the then Health interests of both sides of the House, as well as of those Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire we seek to serve, that we toughen up the rules on (Mr Lansley), and about Fred Michel’s influence on the lobbying and that we get them right. As several hon. then Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Members, not least the hon. Member for Carlisle (John A register that requires only a few lobbying firms to Stevenson), made clear, it is important to remember register will not represent a great leap forward for that much of the lobbying we get is critical to helping transparency. MPs do their jobs: the letter from constituents demanding After three years in office, this Government ought to improvements in patient care, the quiet word from small be making more progress on lobbying reform. Things businesses about the failure of big banks to lend money. should be getting better, yet lobbying scandals keep on These are all forms of lobbying, and they all benefit our coming, and Ministers are failing to turn things round. democracy by contributing to political debate. The Government are standing up for the wrong people—in Nevertheless, the growth in the amount of evidence this case, the secretive in-house lobbyists—instead of on the scale of lobbying and its ability to influence for ordinary people. We want change, real transparency, Ministers makes it imperative that we make progress. a statutory code of conduct and a requirement for all 215 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 216 lobbyists to register. That is not much to ask; it is what Dr Whitehead rose— the British people want, and it is time the Government delivered it. Helen Jones rose—

Tom Brake: I want to make some progress now, and 3.41 pm to comment on the points raised in the debate. The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Brake): I congratulate the hon. Members for Hemsworth Stevenson) ably demonstrated in his opening remarks (Jon Trickett) and for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) on that lobbying is a fact of life for Members of Parliament initiating the debate and on giving the coalition Government and that we are clearly not seeking to ban the activity, an opportunity to set out how we are tackling third-party but to maximise the transparency of it. influence. I am happy to congratulate them, but I must My heart goes out to my hon. Friend the Member for gently chastise them too. Their motion is the most Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) egregious attempt to jump on a bandwagon that I have as he travels around the 3,800 square miles of his seen in recent years. They call on the Government to constituency. He cannot get round his constituency in introduce a Bill on lobbying before the summer recess, the way that I can on my bicycle, but my constituency is when we had already announced such a Bill two weeks only 25 square miles. He highlighted the important role before. At the same time, and in the same breath, for the of the ministerial code, and referred to section 8.14, first time in three years they are calling for cross-party which deals with ministerial reporting. His desire—one talks when they know that such talks would make the that I would share with him—is to use that as a mechanism task of delivering a Bill by the summer recess virtually for improving transparency. We as individual Members impossible. They will of course have an opportunity to of Parliament and Ministers can undertake to do that, demonstrate their desire for a consensual, cross-party without the need for legislation. approach as the Bill makes its passage through the House, and we look forward to their wholehearted and Several hon. Members rose— constructive support. I should like to thank the Chairman of the Political Tom Brake: I will give way later. and Constitutional Reform Committee, the hon. Member My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), for the valuable (Harriett Baldwin) referred to the historical role that scrutiny role that his Committee plays. I know that he central lobbying has to play, and mentioned where the will not be entirely satisfied with the way in which the definition of lobbying came from. She set out how she Government intend to proceed, given the report that as an individual MP has tackled some of the issues of the Committee has produced, but I believe that our greater clarity and transparency by publishing on her proposals are well thought out, perfectly formed and own website the details of her contacts. People can thus tightly focused. We will not adopt the full-blown register see that all is open and clear. that he is seeking, but I hope that our proposals on a third-party register and those on ministerial reporting— Several hon. Members rose— which will require any meeting with an in-house lobbyist to be reported, with a description of the discussions—will Tom Brake: I happily give way to the hon. Member provide the transparency that he wants. for Warrington North (Helen Jones).

Mr Allen: Speaking on behalf of the Select Committee, Helen Jones: I am grateful. Will the right hon. Gentleman which studied the proposals in some detail, I am not tell us exactly why the Government are refusing to have proposing that the Government should accept the things pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill? that we said in our report. I am saying that the House as a whole should be given, say, three weeks under the Tom Brake: I think that the Government are in a auspices of the Select Committee to examine the Bill difficult position: on the one hand we are told that we seriously, preferably before its Second Reading but even are not moving ahead swiftly enough, while on the during an interregnum after that point, so that any other we are told to make time available for pre-legislative Member, anyone in Government and anyone in the scrutiny. The original proposals were scrutinised heavily, lobbying profession can make their views plain. Whatever and the Government will come forward with a Bill, shape the Bill is in—I am sure that it is perfectly many aspects of which will be familiar to the hon. Member formed—we might be able to improve it slightly through for Nottingham North, the Select Committee Chairman, such an examination. for instance, as they were set out in the original proposals.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The Several hon. Members rose— hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member, and he has already made his speech in the debate. We do not Tom Brake: I need to make a bit more progress before need a second one. Good interventions are short giving way again. interventions. We can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Tom Brake: I thank the Chairman of the Select Hart) that, when the Bill is published— Committee for his intervention. He will have heard my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House of Commons Mr Allen: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. clarify what pre-legislative scrutiny was possible and Is it in order to pray in aid the Select Committee when I what was not. have been clear, impartial and open with the House 217 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 218

[Mr Allen] hon. Gentleman is clearly a Conservative party issue, and not an issue for the Deputy Leader or, indeed, the about our Select Committee’s scrutiny and the failure of Leader of the House. the Government to respond to our report within a year? The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Is it somehow acceptable for the Minister to pray in aid Cryer) was anxious for us to be able to deal with the Select Committee in pursuit of arguments that he unaccountable wealth that wields unaccountable influence cannot seem to make himself? in this place. I hope that we shall at least be able to clarify the position relating to third-party lobbyists, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I note that who often represent companies with considerable wealth. point and it is on the record. As the hon. Gentleman I worry about the hon. Gentleman, however: I do not will know, I am not responsible for, and have no desire know what the Deputy Prime Minister has done to him, to be responsible for, the speech of the Deputy Leader but he clearly has a large chip on his shoulder. I recommend of the House. therapy to deal with that. The hon. Member for Warrington North said that Tom Brake: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would members of the public had lost faith in politicians. I have given way to the hon. Member for Nottingham agree with her to some extent, but I should point out North if he had waited his turn. that according to the latest report by the Hansard As I was saying, my hon. Friend the Member for Society, the public feel that in certain respects politicians Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire can be in this place have a greater influence on affairs. That reassured that when the Bill is published, there will be may be partly a result of the e-petition process and the clarity and no room for misunderstanding or misconstruing important role played by the Backbench Business the Government’s intentions when it comes to the definitions Committee. of lobbying, who is covered and who is not covered. The hon. Lady issued a plea for the register to include I was a little bit alarmed at the beginning of the in-house lobbyists who were connected with charities, contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for trade unions and churches, but did not say why she North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) when he seemed considered that to be necessary. As I have already to be inviting you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to test the explained, quarterly reports of meetings between Ministers market to see what the going rate for paid representation and permanent secretaries and in-house lobbyists provide was. Later, he clarified that that was not what he was the details of those who were met and the purposes of suggesting. He raised a serious point about the powers the meetings. that we have as a House to enforce our own rules. He wanted us to exercise those powers diligently and without Helen Jones: I think that if the Minister reads the hesitation, and I would certainly agree with him on report of my words, he will see that I mentioned in-house that. We were then given the parliamentary equivalent lobbyists but not charities or churches. of a TED talk on parliamentary privilege, which I suggest we put on YouTube for others to view later. Finally, I can give the reassurance that it is not the Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for providing that Government’s intention to include the Whips in the clarification. I am not sure that the same clarification register. has been provided by Opposition Front Benchers, but we will have other opportunities to hear from them Finally, there was a contribution from my hon. Friend about the scope of their proposals. the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who described herself as a lobbyist for her constituents—a role that we Given the rather convoluted phrase about sunlight all applaud. We should all seek to imitate her in that and soap with which the hon. Member for Southampton, role. She reinforced the point that both Front-Bench Test (Dr Whitehead) began his speech, he appeared to teams should show transparency. We will want to hear have been lobbied by Procter & Gamble. I am afraid more from the Opposition about that. that I lost the hon. Gentleman towards the end of that phrase, but his main point was that the problem of undue influence would be dealt with by the inclusion of Mr Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? everyone on a register. I do not understand how that can be the case. Simply including people on a register Tom Brake: Indeed—it looks as if we are about to cannot ensure that they will not exert undue influence. hear from them. I apologise to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) for having missed the beginning of his Mr Thomas: May I pursue a point raised by the hon. speech. He spoke of the need for an engaged, interactive Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston)? Why does the right citizens’ democracy, which is something that I would hon. Gentleman, a Liberal Democrat, think it acceptable certainly support and welcome. for Crosby Textor not to have to abide by a statutory code of conduct? That is the gist of the proposals that I hope that the hon. Member for North West Durham he is supporting. (Pat Glass) feels that the House is becoming less—

Tom Brake: I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman Pat Glass indicated dissent. that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I work very closely together. I have some responsibility Tom Brake: No, she clearly thinks that the House is for some aspects of Liberal Democrat policy, and he still too confrontational, or too male-dominated or speaks for the Conservatives on some issues relating to testosterone-driven. I am not entirely sure what she the Conservative party. However, the issue raised by the considers to be the cause of the tension. 219 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 220

The hon. Lady advanced the same arguments about Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian the need for an extensive register. She, too, did not take Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan account of the fact that meetings with in-house lobbyists Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana are reported. Those who want to establish whom Ministers Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema have met and why, and the dates on which they have Doyle, Gemma Mann, John met, can refer to the quarterly report, and can then ask Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve questions if they wish to do so. If, for instance, it Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael concerns them that a Minister has met representatives Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry of Tesco to discuss food labelling, they can pursue the Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg matter further. However—this is relevant to what my Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Elliott, Julie McDonald, Andy Easter Ross said—I should welcome greater transparency Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat in that regard. I know Ministers are looking at that Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim collectively. Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Finally, in summing up for the Opposition the hon. Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Member for Harrow West touched on many of the Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine issues that his hon. Friends had raised in the debate, in Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael particular the code of conduct. The Government’s position Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian is clear: that is best addressed by business, so we can Gapes, Mike Miliband, rh Edward focus on the third-party register. Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew This debate has provided a timely and refreshing Glass, Pat Moon, Mrs Madeleine opportunity for the coalition to set out how we intend Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica to tackle the potential risks associated with third-party Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) influence, by bringing forward coherent, finely balanced Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. and proportionate measures—measures that will not Goodman, Helen (Easington) Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George burden charities and other organisations with huge Green, Kate Munn, Meg regulations, as requested by the hon. Member for West Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bromwich East (Mr Watson). Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul These are measures that I believe the whole House Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian will be able to support. I urge Members to back the Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Government amendment and reject the Opposition motion. Hamilton, Fabian Nash, Pamela Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi original words stand part of the Question. Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert The House divided: Ayes 228, Noes 278. Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Division No. 32] [3.55 pm Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Hermon, Lady Qureshi, Yasmin AYES Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Abbott, Ms Diane Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Campbell, Mr Alan Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Steve Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Gregory Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Emma Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Jonathan Allen, Mr Graham Caton, Martin Hopkins, Kelvin Ritchie, Ms Margaret Anderson, Mr David Champion, Sarah Hosie, Stewart Robertson, Angus Ashworth, Jonathan Chapman, Jenny Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Austin, Ian Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bailey, Mr Adrian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Bain, Mr William Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Vernon Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Banks, Gordon Coffey, Ann Jarvis, Dan Ruane, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, Rosie Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Benn, rh Hilary Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Graham Sawford, Andy Berger, Luciana Crausby, Mr David Jones, Helen Seabeck, Alison Betts, Mr Clive Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Shannon, Jim Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheerman, Mr Barry Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Simpson, David Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Mr Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Sir Tony Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Curran, Margaret Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brennan, Kevin Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Brown, Lyn Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, Owen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, Mr Russell Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Straw, rh Mr Jack Bryant, Chris De Piero, Gloria Long, Naomi Stuart, Ms Gisela Buck, Ms Karen Denham, rh Mr John Love, Mr Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burden, Richard Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark 221 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 222

Thomas, Mr Gareth Whitehead, Dr Alan Hendry, Charles Nuttall, Mr David Thornberry, Emily Williams, Hywel Hinds, Damian O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Timms, rh Stephen Williamson, Chris Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Trickett, Jon Wilson, Phil Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Turner, Karl Winnick, Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Twigg, Derek Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Twigg, Stephen Wishart, Pete Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Sir James Umunna, Mr Chuka Woodcock, John Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Vaz, rh Keith Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Howell, John Patel, Priti Vaz, Valerie Wright, David Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Walley, Joan Wright, Mr Iain Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike Watson, Mr Tom Tellers for the Ayes: Hunter, Mark Penrose, John Watts, Mr Dave Nic Dakin and Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Weir, Mr Mike Alison McGovern Jackson, Mr Stewart Perry, Claire James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric NOES Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Adams, Nigel Davey, rh Mr Edward Johnson, Gareth Prisk, Mr Mark Afriyie, Adam Davies, Glyn Johnson, Joseph Pritchard, Mark Aldous, Peter Davies, Philip Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Amess, Mr David Davis, rh Mr David Jones, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus Reckless, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dinenage, Caroline Kawczynski, Daniel Redwood, rh Mr John Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Kelly, Chris Rees-Mogg, Jacob Baker, Norman Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Kirby, Simon Reid, Mr Alan Baker, Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Knight, rh Mr Greg Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Baldry, Sir Tony Drax, Richard Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Duncan, rh Mr Alan Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Barclay, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Lancaster, Mark Rogerson, Dan Barker, rh Gregory Dunne, Mr Philip Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Baron, Mr John Ellis, Michael Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Eustice, George Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Graham Lee, Jessica Rutley, David Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Sanders, Mr Adrian Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr John Sandys, Laura Berry, Jake Fallon, rh Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Scott, Mr Lee Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Leslie, Charlotte Selous, Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Field, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Blackwood, Nicola Francois, rh Mr Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Lloyd, Stephen Shepherd, Sir Richard Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Bradley, Karen Gale, Sir Roger Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Brine, Steve Gibb, Mr Nick Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas Brokenshire, James Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Brooke, Annette Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Browne, Mr Jeremy Glen, John McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Bruce, Fiona Goldsmith, Zac McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Goodwill, Mr Robert Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Graham, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Bob Burns, rh Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Burt, Lorely Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Cable, rh Vince Griffiths, Andrew Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Halfon, Robert Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morris, James Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg Teather, Sarah Clark, rh Greg Hart, Simon Mundell, rh David Thornton, Mike Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harvey, Sir Nick Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, rh Mr John Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David Collins, Damian Heald, Oliver Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Nokes, Caroline Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Norman, Jesse Uppal, Paul 223 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 224

Vara, Mr Shailesh Willetts, rh Mr David Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Vickers, Martin Williams, Mr Mark Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria Walker, Mr Charles Williams, Roger Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Williamson, Gavin Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Wallace, Mr Ben Wilson, Mr Rob Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Ward, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Weatherley, Mike Wright, Simon Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Webb, Steve Yeo, Mr Tim Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Wharton, James Young, rh Sir George Wheeler, Heather Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Zahawi, Nadhim White, Chris Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Whittaker, Craig Tellers for the Noes: Hayes, rh Mr John Mundell, rh David Whittingdale, Mr John Greg Hands and Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Wiggin, Bill Jenny Willott Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Question accordingly negatived. Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Hollingbery, George Norman, Jesse That the proposed words be there added. Hollobone, Mr Philip Nuttall, Mr David The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 221. Holloway, Mr Adam O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Offord, Dr Matthew Division No. 33] [4.9 pm Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Hosie, Stewart Opperman, Guy AYES Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, Richard Adams, Nigel Chishti, Rehman Howell, John Paice, rh Sir James Afriyie, Adam Clark, rh Greg Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Aldous, Peter Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Patel, Priti Amess, Mr David Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Andrew, Stuart Coffey, Dr Thérèse Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Collins, Damian Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Bacon, Mr Richard Colvile, Oliver James, Margot Percy, Andrew Baker, Norman Crouch, Tracey Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Baker, Steve Davey, rh Mr Edward Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Baldry, Sir Tony Davies, Glyn Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baldwin, Harriett de Bois, Nick Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Barker, rh Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Baron, Mr John Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Mr Marcus Pugh, John Bebb, Guto Doyle-Price, Jackie Kawczynski, Daniel Raab, Mr Dominic Beith, rh Sir Alan Drax, Richard Kelly, Chris Reckless, Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kirby, Simon Redwood, rh Mr John Benyon, Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Knight, rh Mr Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Beresford, Sir Paul Dunne, Mr Philip Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reid, Mr Alan Berry, Jake Edwards, Jonathan Lamb, Norman Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bingham, Andrew Ellis, Michael Lancaster, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Elphicke, Charlie Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Angus Blackwood, Nicola Eustice, George Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Blunt, Mr Crispin Evans, Graham Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Boles, Nick Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Bradley, Karen Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Brady, Mr Graham Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Brake, rh Tom Farron, Tim Leech, Mr John Russell, Sir Bob Bray, Angie Field, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Brazier, Mr Julian Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Sanders, Mr Adrian Brine, Steve Freeman, George Lewis, Dr Julian Sandys, Laura Brokenshire, James Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Brooke, Annette Gale, Sir Roger Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Browne, Mr Jeremy Garnier, Sir Edward Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sharma, Alok Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mark Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Sir Richard Buckland, Mr Robert George, Andrew Lucas, Caroline Simpson, Mr Keith Burley, Mr Aidan Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Burns, Conor Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe Burns, rh Mr Simon Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Henry Burrowes, Mr David Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Burt, Lorely Goldsmith, Zac Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Cable, rh Vince Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Nicholas Cairns, Alun Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Carswell, Mr Douglas Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew 225 Lobbying25 JUNE 2013 Lobbying 226

Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger Morris, Grahame M. Stewart, Bob Weatherley, Mike Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Streeter, Mr Gary Weir, Mr Mike Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Stride, Mel Wharton, James Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stuart, Mr Graham Wheeler, Heather Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Stunell, rh Sir Andrew White, Chris Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Sturdy, Julian Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Swales, Ian Whittaker, Craig Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Whittingdale, Mr John Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Swinson, Jo Wiggin, Bill Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Syms, Mr Robert Willetts, rh Mr David Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Hywel Havard, Mr Dai Perkins, Toby Teather, Sarah Williams, Mr Mark Healey, rh John Phillipson, Bridget Thornton, Mike Williams, Roger Hendrick, Mark Pound, Stephen Thurso, John Williams, Stephen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Timpson, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin Hermon, Lady Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tomlinson, Justin Wilson, Mr Rob Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Tredinnick, David Wishart, Pete Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Steve Turner, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Emma Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Uppal, Paul Yeo, Mr Tim Hoey, Kate Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vara, Mr Shailesh Young, rh Sir George Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Vickers, Martin Zahawi, Nadhim Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walker, Mr Charles Tellers for the Ayes: Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Walker, Mr Robin Anne Milton and Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank Wallace, Mr Ben Jenny Willott Jackson, Glenda Roy, Lindsay James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Dame Joan NOES Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ann Johnson, rh Alan Sawford, Andy Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Diana Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Allen, Mr Graham Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Anderson, Mr David Creasy, Stella Jones, Susan Elan Simpson, David Ashworth, Jonathan Cruddas, Jon Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Skinner, Mr Dennis Austin, Ian Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Slaughter, Mr Andy Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Mr Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Nick Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Sir Tony Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen Banks, Gordon Curran, Margaret Lazarowicz, Mark Spellar, rh Mr John Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris Straw, rh Mr Jack Beckett, rh Margaret Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Stuart, Ms Gisela Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Berger, Luciana Davies, Geraint Long, Naomi Tami, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Davies, Philip Love, Mr Andrew Thomas, Mr Gareth Blackman-Woods, De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Ian Thornberry, Emily Roberta Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Dobson, rh Frank Malhotra, Seema Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Docherty, Thomas Mann, John Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Twigg, Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve McCann, Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Brennan, Kevin Doyle, Gemma Vaz, rh Keith Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark McClymont, Gregg Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Watson, Mr Tom Bryant, Chris Efford, Clive McDonald, Andy Watts, Mr Dave Buck, Ms Karen Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Burden, Richard Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Alan Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Gregory Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Winnick, Mr David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Caton, Martin Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Woodcock, John Champion, Sarah Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Chapman, Jenny Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh Edward Wright, David Clark, Katy Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Wright, Mr Iain Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Tellers for the Noes: Clwyd, rh Ann Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Nic Dakin and Coaker, Vernon Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alison McGovern 227 Lobbying 25 JUNE 2013 228

Question accordingly agreed to. Armed Forces The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as [Relevant documents: Seventh Report from the Defence amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Committee, Session 2010-12, The Armed Forces Covenant Resolved, in Action? Part 1: Military Casualties, HC 762, and the That this House notes the failure of the previous Administration Government response, HC 1855. Second Report from the to implement a statutory register of lobbyists for 13 years; welcomes Defence Committee, Session 2012-13, The Armed Forces the Coalition Agreement commitment to regulate lobbying through Covenant in Action? Part 2: Accommodation, HC 331, a statutory register; notes the Government’s consultation paper and the Government response, HC 578.] on Introducing a Statutory Register of Lobbyists; welcomes the Government’s commitment to bring forward legislation before the summer recess to introduce a statutory register of lobbyists, as part of a broad package of measures to tighten the rules on how 4.21 pm third parties can influence the UK’s political system; and looks forward to welcoming reforms that ensure that the activities of Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I beg to outside organisations who seek to influence the political process move, are transparent, accountable and properly regulated. That this House celebrates and commemorates the contribution of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and their families, in particular those currently serving overseas; recognises the important introduction of Armed Forces Day in 2006 and urges the nation to come together and champion the Services’ achievements throughout the decades; pays tribute to the UK’s Forces, their families and the charities who do so much to support them; recognises the enormous contribution of the staff who support the UK’s Forces from within Government and the workforces in industry who supply them with world-class equipment; urges all those in public life to seek additional ways to support the Armed Forces Covenant; urges the Government, local authorities, business and charities to deliver the best possible post-service support; and considers the principles of the Armed Forces Covenant essential to uphold, through public policy, the provision of welfare and frontline support. I am pleased to start what I think is an important debate in advance of Armed Forces day on issues that should transcend party politics. The care and support that we offer those prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of others in our nation’s name across the globe is something that we rightly celebrate every day and in particular this weekend. The patriotism, courage and dedication of the men and women who serve are immeasurable. The first duty of any Government to protect our citizens would not be possible without our forces’ commitment, and they must at all times be properly valued and rewarded. I want this House to know again that the Government will always have the support of those on the Opposition Benches when they seek to support our service personnel. This is more important as Armed Forces day approaches. That is an opportunity for people across the UK to come together locally to celebrate the contribution our forces and their families make, not just to our national security, but to local communities. So it is in that spirit that I offer my comments today. In doing so, however, I cannot guarantee the tone or the spirit in which my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) will wind up today’s debate.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I strongly agree with everything the right hon. Gentleman said about Armed Forces day and about support for our armed forces. Having read his motion carefully, I strongly agree with every single word in it and I am most grateful to him for proposing it. However, I look forward to the response of his hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). Is it not the job of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition not simply to propose a motion on which we all agree, but to try to point out what is wrong with what the Government are doing? Why has he wasted the opportunity to do so? 229 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 230

Mr Murphy: There are 364 days of the year to point home. Of course, after the pain of the past few years, out where the Government are going wrong. We have many people understandably ask why it is in our interests chosen today in advance of Armed Forces day to celebrate to engage in such causes and to confront unrest in the contribution our armed forces make and to offer, as Afghanistan and elsewhere. The answer, in my opinion, the hon. Gentleman will realise as he listens to the rest is pretty straightforward: we do so because we do not of my comments, some of the ways in which we think want it to visit our shores. the country and our politics could further improve the We have recently seen UK personnel operating in service and support for our armed forces. But I will take Libya and Mali, alongside the ongoing operations in his advice and when I next return to the Dispatch Box I Afghanistan, in a sign of the unpredictability of today’s will do so in the spirit of my hon. Friend the Member security landscape. Today the men and women who put for North Durham, rather than making my own comments. themselves in harm’s way do so in a rapidly evolving defence environment that will demand new skills, Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): May I technologies and strategies alongside their timeless courage answer the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray)? and ingenuity. I will tell him what is wrong with the armed forces, if he really wants to know—the cuts to the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): I endorse the right hon. Gentleman’s preliminary remarks. Are Mr Murphy: There will be opportunities throughout not many armed servicemen and women worried about the debate for right hon. and hon. Members to make any future entanglement? Will he take this opportunity their own assessments of the strength of the Government’s to share with the House the answer to this question: do defence policy, but my intention today, as I said at the Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition support or oppose arming beginning of my remarks, is to make constructive the Syrian opposition forces? suggestions about how together we can do more to honour our armed forces and support their families. Mr Murphy: As my right hon. Friends the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Foreign Secretary have Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): In a comradely already made clear, there is a great degree of scepticism spirit, does the right hon. Gentleman think that military and worry about any decision to arm the Syrian opposition, bands have a role to play in the future of our armed not least because it is not possible to quarantine the forces? arms provided or guarantee who will be the end user. We look forward to hearing the Government make their Mr Murphy: I have visited the hon. Gentleman’s argument. I thought that the Prime Minister, at Prime constituency a number of times and know how passionately Minister’s questions the week before last, had an argument, he argues that case. Of course military bands play an but he did not make it very well. important role, as we saw at trooping the colour a couple of weeks ago on Her Majesty’s official birthday. Our purpose in the world is to defend our interests I think that the remarkable sights and sounds of military and promote our values, but the means by which we bands are celebrated by the entre nation. achieve those ends and the threats that challenge both our interests and our ideas are increasingly diverse, complex and intense. The global population is growing Sir Bob Russell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give rapidly, putting massive pressure on resources and space way? and forcing migration from poor to rich states. Climate change will reduce available land, food and water, Mr Murphy: I will give way, as long as the hon. exacerbating the drivers of state failure. Weak and Gentleman understands that this will be his second and unstable states already outnumber strong and stable final intervention. ones by more than 2:1. A youth bulge is seeing rising aspiration and great emotional urgency in the desire for The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark political change. The advance of information technologies Francois): Good luck! and biotechnologies threatens international security infrastructure, while nuclear proliferation and cyber-attacks Sir Bob Russell: The reason I intervened is that under pose the potential for mass destruction. the Labour Government the number of Army bands Within this context, it is our duty collectively to was reduced by almost a quarter. ensure that our forces are designed to meet new threats, with a strategy defined by adaptability, prevention and Mr Murphy: I knew that I would enjoy the hon. partnering with our allies. Labour has argued that our Gentleman’s second intervention. Someone shouted from recruitment plan must be advanced and affordable, a sedentary position “Good luck” in relation to his not defined by discipline in budgetary management as well seeking to intervene again. All I will say is that I will not as maximising modern technology and a new give way to him later in my speech. I am pretty proud of multilateralism, and that our armed forces must be the changes and reforms introduced by the Labour higher-skilled, focused on stabilisation, cultural embedding Government with regard to our armed forces. Members and building other nations’ underdeveloped forces so today will offer their observations and criticisms, but on that they can share the burden of future heavy lifting. balance I am pretty proud of our record. We see a new role for our services based on earlier Our armed forces stationed overseas are rightly at the intervention, to prevent the need for the large-scale front of all our minds, including those stationed in conflicts of our recent history. However, it is our duty to Afghanistan. They operate in the dust and danger of a ensure that such capability is based on reform throughout far-away terrain to protect security on our streets at the ranks. 231 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 232

Our duty to forces on the front line is matched, of settled on the position that our armed forces should course, by our duty of care to them when they return. continue to travel and be visible to the public mind and The armed forces covenant, enshrined in 2010 following public affection. Although such a position is always a campaign by the Royal British Legion, has at its heart taken under the best available advice, the hon. Gentleman the principle that no one should suffer disadvantage as makes an important point. a result of their service. That principle should infuse all our work in support of the covenant and those men, Mr Jim Cunningham: On the cuts to the armed forces women and their families. and their replacement with reservists, the Federation of Small Businesses said that a lot of their members would Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I absolutely agree think twice before employing a reservist. Will my right with my right hon. Friend about the armed forces hon. Friend comment on that? covenant. I am sure he welcomes the news that all three local authorities in my area have signed up to the Mr Murphy: I will comment on that a little later. It is community covenant. Indeed, this Saturday morning an important point. The Regular Army is being cut to we will name the town square in Corby after Lance about 82,000 and the reservist force is being doubled to Corporal James Ashworth, who, as my right hon. Friend about 30,000. It is crucial for our country that that is will know, made the ultimate sacrifice fighting in Helmand, done in the right way. The issue is partly about how the Afghanistan. He was awarded the Victoria Cross—only Government interact and explain the benefit of having the 14th person to receive the honour since the second reservists in the workplace. I shall come back to that a world war. I welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment little later. to encouraging local authorities to recognise the sacrifice of our troops. I hope that Armed Forces day, in recognition of all those who have fallen, will be a reflection of the emotions that we feel—a commemoration of loved ones lost and Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend speaks again with great a celebration of all they achieved and their comrades passion about Lance Corporal James Ashworth. This is can continue to achieve; I am thinking not just of their not a partisan point: my hon. Friend has been in the deeds in the armed forces, but the love they gave, the House for only a short time, but no Member on either friendships they built and the memories in which they side of the House could fail to be impressed by the are held. diligence with which he has taken an interest in armed forces and defence issues. The whole House is improved The covenant is a statement of collective purpose, as by his contributions. I am sure that, like my hon. my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) Friend, Members across the House will be doing their said. Its principles cut across classes, sectors, regions bit in their own town and city centres this Saturday. I and nations of the UK. Businesses, local communities, will be in Nottingham at the national celebration of central Government and local authorities all have a Armed Forces day. responsibility to deliver the highest possible levels of care and support to the service community. Of course Only recently did we graphically witness both the we operate within financial constraints, but a pooling of danger that our forces face and the unity that they can our commitment and imagination can lead to better inspire. The atrocious murder of Drummer Lee Rigby policy and meaningful results. That is why we have sickened us all—a feeling whose intensity was matched urged local authorities to have veterans champions—a only by the resolve to defeat the extremist sentiments dedicated person at each council to develop support for that shaped the minds of the murderers. The result was service leavers to help them to resettle into civilian life. not division, apart from that in respect of an exploitative On return from the front line or in departing the forces, minority; instead, it was a simple act of Britain standing many service leavers struggle with the transition from together to defy that violence, hatred and intolerance. military to civilian life.

Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): When that dreadful Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I am sure that the murder occurred, it was suggested that the uniform be right hon. Gentleman will join me in praising all of removed and people should go out in civilian clothes. Scotland’s local authorities for signing the covenant. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that was a On pooling, does he think that there is a useful model in bad idea? Like other Members, I am glad that that did understanding the work of Veterans Scotland, which not happen. We should stand up to such acts and be brings together 53 veterans’ organisations to work with proud that the uniform of the Army, Navy or Air Force the Scottish Government and the UK Government to is worn in this country. ensure that veterans have the appropriate policy delivered at a Scottish and a UK level? Mr Murphy: I fully endorse everything that the hon. Gentleman says. I recently enjoyed visiting his constituency Mr Murphy: It is a rare occasion when the hon. in an unusual bout of sunshine; coming from Glasgow, Gentleman and I are in full agreement on defence I was not used to that. matters, because we have an entirely different vision for The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. For the future of UK defence. He makes a very important understandable reasons, our armed forces were, for a point. It is a cause for some celebration that all 32 of number of decades, to some degree invisible to the Scotland’s local authorities have community covenants. public eye because of the republican extremist violence Of course, there is an issue of scale in England, but emanating from Northern Ireland. Although there were achieving 100% in Scotland is a remarkable achievement. questions during the first few hours after the attack the I would like to put on record the whole House’s hon. Gentleman mentioned, it is right that we have congratulations to all those local authorities. 233 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 234

Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Mention I was joined at the launch this morning by an Olympic of Scotland raises in my mind a prospect that many of athlete. When I tweeted that fact earlier this morning, us regard as unfortunate: that the contribution made by people got in touch to find out which Olympic athlete Scotland over many years—hundreds of years—to the would be joining me on the publicity trail. The top British Army might in some way be prejudiced were suggestions were Jessica Ennis and Sir Chris Hoy.However, Scotland to become independent and create its own if you will forgive me on this one occasion, Madam armed forces. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that Deputy Speaker, for the misuse of parliamentary that tradition is worthy of protection and is as powerful terminology, it was not Sir Chris Hoy, but another an argument as any against the idea that Scotland knight: our very own Sir Ming Campbell. As the House should hive off from the United Kingdom? will know, he competed a blink of an eye ago in the 1964 Olympic games in Tokyo. His other claim to fame, as he has said before, is that he defeated O. J. Simpson Mr Murphy: The right hon. and learned Gentleman on the running track. We were joined, I am pleased to is exactly right; he makes an important point. One of say, by the Chairman of the Defence Committee, the the remarkable things about the patchwork nature of right hon. Member for North East Hampshire the United Kingdom is the way in which our four (Mr Arbuthnot), in the House of Commons gym in an nations come together in some of our most important all-party show of support for the Fighting Fitter campaign. institutions, none more so than our armed forces. For very many people in Scotland, but also across the UK, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will the right hon. the idea of tearing that apart demonstrates that Gentleman give way? independence is a powerful idea of the 19th century that is ill suited to the complexity of the 21st century. Mr Murphy: If the hon. Gentleman wants to complain All this work and all this support from veterans’ that he was not invited to the gym this morning, I will champions are crucial to ensure that the armed forces happily give way. covenant becomes a reality on the ground. For some time, I have reflected that although an Opposition party Bob Stewart: There is no chance of me ever being an is formally out of office, it is not out of power. That is Olympic athlete. I would like to inform the House what why we, as the Opposition, have worked with business happened when the shadow Secretary of State visited to develop and deliver the veterans interview programme, the Marines. Apparently, they sent him on a run and he which encourages employers to offer veterans a guaranteed beat the lot of them. Since then, they have never recovered. interview or other form of enhanced employment support. It is a voluntary scheme that gives veterans a chance to show employers how their skills and experience could Mr Murphy: Defeating the Marines in a run is one benefit their businesses. The Department for Work and thing; defeating the shadow Chancellor in the marathon Pensions has agreed to roll it out nationally. is another. I know which one I will pay for the longest. I think that he was only two hours behind me —[Interruption.] However, I do not keep records of Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Ind): Does the right hon. these things and, I am sure, neither does he. Gentleman agree that with the several hundred charities Let me get back to what I am meant to be reading that now exist all facing in the right direction, there is out. The Opposition believe that it is vital to protect perhaps a lack of co-ordination in bringing their efforts through anti-discrimination legislation those who protect together for the best benefit of the veterans concerned? our nation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) said, recent polling shows that one in 20 service personnel have suffered abuse in Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman, who served with the street. My hon. Friend referred to the attitude of such gallantry, makes an important point. The work businesses in the survey. A private Member’s Bill presented that COBSEO—the Confederation of Service Charities—is yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline doing could be important in this regard. Understandably, and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) proposes that abuse a plethora of new organisations has been created, born of the forces should be treated as aggravated, thus out of the remarkable emotion in the country whereby guaranteeing specific punishment for those who attack people wish to do something—anything—to support our forces. The polling also demonstrates that 18% of our armed forces. In a little while I will announce one service personnel have been refused service in a public more organisation that will be doing important work in place. The Bill also proposes to outlaw discrimination future. I hope that the hon. Gentleman shares my sense against members of the forces in the provision of goods of satisfaction about that. and services. That is vital if we are to tackle disadvantage Through the veterans interview programme, about that arises from military service. Although I am certain which I have just spoken, we are working in partnership that the Bill can be improved technically, I hope that it with some of the nation’s largest employers. This morning, will gain cross-party support. in another partnership with business, I updated the We hope that the whole House will support the Opposition’s Fighting Fitter campaign, through which initiatives that I have mentioned: the veterans interview health and leisure centres provide discounts for members programme, local armed forces champions, the Fighting of the forces and their families. Five national health Fitter campaign and the anti-discrimination legislation. companies are taking part: Nuffield Health, Pure Gym, I look forward to hearing from the Minister, whom we David Lloyd, Virgin Active and ukactive. Between them, also did not invite to our session at the gym this they have more than 450 sites that will offer discounts morning. I hope that he will reflect on each of those for the armed forces. We hope that others will do the initiatives which, although launched by the Opposition, same this weekend and beyond. are free from party politics. 235 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 236

Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Before On post-service support, we want to see a permanent the right hon. Gentleman moves on from veterans, does umbrella body, set above the brilliant but sometimes he think that it is important that we recognise the role fragmented third sector, that will be a one-stop shop for played by British nuclear test veterans? Those veterans leavers and that would vastly increase access to support played a unique service role at the dawn of our nuclear and services. weapons programme, but the country has never recognised them properly. We rank pretty close to the bottom of Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I, with other the international table of decency on this issue compared members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, with other nuclear countries. Does he think that it is recently met the US Department of Veterans Affairs, time to put that right? which produces a “bible” for veterans. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we need to have something Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman raises an important similar in this country: a one-stop shop for all the and long-running issue. All I would say is that I have services, support and benefits that are available for met, and will continue to meet, representatives of those veterans? veterans, as do hon. Members on all sides of the House. I am sure that the Government are grappling with this Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious matter. Under the previous Government a settlement point about how we can learn from international experience. offer was made, but my recollection and understanding A lot of information is available online, but not in print. is that that was blocked, seemingly by legal process and If he wishes to suggest to the Government that they by lawyers. If that had not been the case, compensation produce their own bible, I am sure that the Education might already have been provided. It is disappointing Secretary would be happy to write the foreword. The and regrettable that that has not happened. hon. Gentleman raises an important point, and I am sure that those on the Government Front Bench are An essential element of duty of care is how we listening. support those who have served to get back into work post-service. Being in the armed forces often provides While it is right that members of the armed forces—this personnel with friendship, if not near-familial support. relates to the point about an additional organisation—do It can be disorientating and disconcerting when bonds not have a union and cannot join a union, I want to with compatriots are suddenly broken and the norms of mention for a moment the role of trade unions in the military life are lost. important work of post-service workplace support. I know that some in the country, and perhaps even some in the Chamber today, bemoan the role of unions, but I Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Will the right hon. am delighted to inform the House that earlier this Gentleman give way? afternoon I attended an event with the general secretary of the Community union, Michael Leahy. I hope that Mr Murphy: I will happily give way to the hon. the whole House will welcome the news that the Community Gentleman, but I will then, with your permission Madam trade union has announced its intention to work with Deputy Speaker, make some progress. parliamentarians on all sides and other stakeholders to position themselves as the UK veterans’ union. It is well Charles Hendry: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept known that Community supports me in my work as that there is a challenge for people who have tremendous shadow Defence Secretary, and from now on it will be skills and expertise from their time in the armed forces? able to offer specialist, bespoke provision to help veterans When they move on, potential employers who have find gainful employment and continue to make a valuable suitable vacancies often do not employ them because difference. they do not have relevant industrial experience. Does he Changes in post-service support should be just one see a role for organisations such as ForceSelect and side of the reform we need, which is why we are arguing others to work with those leaving the armed forces and for faster academic attainment within the services. In with potential employers to help ensure that they have recent evidence, the Defence Select Committee said: the opportunity for a long-term career outside the “The provision for meeting the literacy and numeracy needs of forces too? our service personnel would benefit from further improvement.” A system where many of those who defend our country Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman makes an important are left without additional basic skills is bad for our point. He and his wife continue to do so much to troops, the Army and our country. We believe that support armed forces charity. I had the opportunity to through close collaboration with the MOD, the Department attend one of his functions, which managed to raise for Education and the devolved Administrations across thousands of pounds. His point about the relationship the country, there can be opportunities to reach level 2 and interaction between potential employers and service within two years for those without qualifications. This leavers is crucial. The Government, as part of a national should apply across the UK because while education effort, should help to lead the way in breaking down may be devolved in Wales, Scotland and Northern some of those barriers and fostering a greater degree of Ireland, our collective responsibility to our forces is not. understanding. The approach that we favour, as the I want to make it certain that members of the forces hon. Gentleman hinted at, is to enhance post-service would benefit from such changes, no matter where in support and introduce much more rigorous in-service our islands they live. There should also be specialist training. That would not only ensure that those who training in literacy teaching, increased provision of leave have the skills and structures to help them advance Army apprenticeships within the infantry and easier in new careers, but strengthen the operational effectiveness conversion to civilian qualifications. Enhanced in-service of the services by increasing the skill levels of personnel education would be a genuine means of progression for while they are still serving. military men and women. 237 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 238

[Mr Jim Murphy] govern that in order to be successful, this policy—of boosting reservist numbers, engaging with employers Turning briefly to the issue of reservists, the House and getting right the proportion of regulars to reservists will be aware that in the light of the Government’s and the relationship and integration of units and structural change in the Army—as my hon. Friend the individuals—has to be done almost faultlessly. It is an Member for Coventry South has mentioned—realising enormous challenge to cut the Regular Army at this defence planning assumptions rests largely on doubling pace in the expectation that reservists will fill the gap, the number of reserves to 30,000. Labour Members and I know that he will continue to raise that point. support a larger role for the Army reserve, as it will Finally, the evidence shows that some reservists can rightly be known, but we are concerned that plans are suffer worse post-service psychological issues than regulars, as yet insufficiently available in detail to give members in part because of the speed of the transition from enough information and senior military figures have military to civilian settings, so we should consider how raised public concerns about their confidence in the we can increase access for reservists to military medical success of the current process. services in order to tackle the potential mental health In advance of the forthcoming White Paper, there are problems that a minority—I stress, a minority—experience. a number of policies that we believe the Government The Opposition will regularly disagree on many aspects should consider, not least to ensure the compatibility of domestic and on some aspects of defence policy, and between longer training and deployment time periods the decision to leave certain key capability gaps following and the employment of a larger reserve force. the defence review will remain controversial and continue to provoke enormous debate, but Armed Forces day Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Will my right hon. should be defined not by a political contest between Friend join me in congratulating the people of Dudley parties, but where possible by consensus and celebration. on the contribution they make to the reservists through The groups comprising our national defence—the high- A squadron of the Royal Mercian and Lancastrian skilled industrial work forces that make world-class Yeomanry, which is based in Vicar street, Dudley? It is equipment, the civilian government work force that do the best recruited squadron in the country; it recently so much to support our forces, the charities whose took on 47 new trainees and is processing another unrivalled support and commitment to our armed forces 60 now, and has had two dozen volunteers on active personnel provide a lifeline when often another does service in Afghanistan. not exist, and the families, who are sometimes forgotten, but who make sacrifices to support the actions of their Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend has been so strong in family members on the front line—will each participate support of his Territorial regiment. When I was in in this Saturday’s celebrations, but uppermost in our Dudley, the campaign was so fierce that it was the one thoughts will be the hundreds lost in recent conflicts issue about which the local media wanted to talk. I and the thousands in service overseas this weekend and congratulate him, and the Government will have to take unable to be at home and to join in the commemorations into account the point he makes, not only about the and celebrations. We remember them, we thank them high regard in which the unit is held in Dudley but the and, this weekend, we celebrate them. fact that it is recruited to full strength and is indeed over-subscribed. I look forward to the Minister responding Several hon. Members rose— to that specific point. There must also be real protection for reservists. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Current legislation says clearly that an employer has a Before I call the Minister, I want to give notice to all duty to re-employ a returning reservist in the occupation Back Benchers that there will be a six-minute time limit, they were employed in before their service and on the which, depending on how the debate goes, it might be same terms and conditions. There is, however, no legislation necessary to reduce in order to ensure that everybody to prevent an employer from discriminating against who wants to participate can. reservists in their hiring procedures on the grounds of their military affiliation. The Government should now 4.57 pm consult employers specifically on new legislation to The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark protect against discrimination in hiring reservists, which Francois): I welcome the opportunity to speak for the would need to be coupled with an obligation of Government in this important debate. Although this is transparency from reservists to declare their status. technically an Opposition day, there is evidently a good deal of consensus in the House on this issue, and Mr Baron: Is the shadow Secretary of State’s concern without wishing to tempt fate, I suspect that the mood compounded by the fact that if we look at the present will be slightly different from the last time the right hon. mobilisation rate of the existing TA, which stands at Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) and I about 40%, we see that plugging the gap left by the loss crossed swords—over the Lisbon treaty—on behalf of of 20,000 regulars would require 50,000 reservists and our respective parties. not 30,000? Does the rundown of the TA forces in The members of our armed forces, past and present, recent years, including the closure of TA centres and regulars and reserves, have made an incredible contribution the fact that TA numbers are in decline, worry him? to this country, some having made the ultimate sacrifice on our behalf. We owe our armed forces an enormous Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman has raised these debt, and it is right that we continually strive to recognise, matters in Defence questions and other defence debates, repay and honour this debt. The sheer breadth and pace and he will continue to do so. He sounds a clear of operations over the last decade have raised awareness warning to the Government and anyone who wishes to of the bravery and dedication of our service personnel, 239 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 240 and public support for our armed forces is arguably at Mr Francois: I am absolutely delighted to hear that. an all-time high—something that I am sure the whole The support that we see at homecoming parades now is House will welcome and endorse. Excellent work has been much greater and more heartfelt than it was a few years done by all sections of society—by the public sector, the ago. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will give an private sector and charities—to help harness this support. Essex example. In Basildon, the police estimated that Earlier this month, for instance, we paid tribute to those some 10,000 people were present when the Royal Anglian veterans who stormed the Normandy beaches to help Regiment returned. It is marvellous, when our brave free Europe from Nazi tyranny. I was privileged to lay service personnel come back from operations, to see several wreaths on behalf of the Government. This was their own communities across the country welcoming personally poignant for me as my father, Reginald them home. I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for Francois, served aboard a minesweeper on D-day 69 years doing the right thing by his local regiment on Saturday. ago. Armed Forces day this Saturday is just one of the Jake Berry rose— many ways the public show their support for our service personnel. It is an important occasion, because it allows Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con) rose— us to come together on a single day to show our appreciation for what they do for us every day. Since its Mr Francois: I shall give way first to my hon. Friend inception as veterans day in 2006—it became armed the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry). forces day in 2009—it has allowed millions of people to celebrate the achievements and remember the sacrifices Jake Berry: I should like to reinforce the Minister’s of our soldiers, sailors and airmen and women. The point about the importance of Armed Forces day. It has event has gained real momentum in the past few years, given people like me and my constituents who have thanks to the backing of the royal family, charities, either no or relatively little military experience an businesses, the armed forces themselves, and thousands opportunity to show our gratitude. In Rossendale and of volunteers up and down the country. I would like to Darwen, we have been packing parcels that will be sent take this opportunity to thank all those who give their over to Afghanistan, and I have been overwhelmed by time and effort to make Armed Forces day the success the public support for the project. It has given people an that it has now become. This year, there will be more opportunity to say thank you, in their own small way. than 300 events taking place all over the country—including, I am proud to say, in Rayleigh—ranging in scale from the small to the large, and the formal to the informal. Mr Francois: I endorse entirely what my hon. Friend says. Armed Forces day has gathered momentum in the past few years. It has become a bigger event in the Sir Bob Russell: Will the Minister give way? calendar of every community around the country, and there will be 300 events across the United Kingdom on Mr Francois: Yes; it is no surprise that the hon. Saturday. I hope that it will gather even greater momentum Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) wishes to in the months and years ahead. I shall now give way to a intervene on me. knight of the realm.

Sir Bob Russell: Speaking as one Essex MP to another, Sir Gerald Howarth: My right hon. Friend has paid I am sure that the Minister would like to inform the tribute to the excellent Colchester military wives choir, House that among the celebrations in his constituency but can I assure him that he has not lived until he has there will be a performance by the Colchester military heard the Aldershot military wives choir, which is even wives choir. better? Unfortunately, it will not be performing here in Portcullis House as originally planned, but it will be Mr Francois: Having seen the programme, I am happy available to perform in Aldershot, and I hope that I can to confirm that that is the case. I heard the Colchester encourage all my hon. Friends to come and hear it. military wives choir perform in Portcullis House some months ago, and if it gives as good a performance on Mr Francois: I can assure my hon. Friend that I most Saturday as it did then, all my constituents who attend certainly have lived, but we won’t go into that now. I do the event will be very impressed. not want to start anything more than friendly competition between the different military wives choirs, but if his Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) rose— choir is anything like as good as the one from Colchester, it will have achieved a very high standard indeed. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con) rose— Another important point about Armed Forces day is that all the events will be slightly different, and personal Mr Francois: I shall give way first to the hon. Member to the groups and individuals involved. That is an for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). important aspect of the day: it is people-led. The Ministry of Defence is supporting the day financially by allocating Andrew Gwynne: I shall be in Victoria park in Denton grants totalling some £320,000 to 100 of this year’s on Saturday to celebrate Armed Forces day. Another events, but we do not dictate the nature of the events. way in which the public can get together to celebrate We do play an organisational role in supporting some of our armed forces is through the homecoming of our the larger gatherings, however. This year’s national event troops. The Minister will be pleased to hear that we will be held in Nottingham, and the city has fully have had huge crowds in Tameside and Stockport for embraced its role as host. It will be attended by Their the homecoming of the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment Royal Highnesses, the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester, and the Mercian Regiment in the past few weeks. the Secretary of State for Defence, the Minister for the 241 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 242

[Mr Francois] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): I commend the Government for their work on implementing Armed Forces, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff and, the community covenant. I would like to pay tribute to I am pleased to say, the shadow Secretary of State for both Dudley and Sandwell councils in the west midlands Defence as well. for signing up to the community charter. Does the Minister agree that it is important for both councils to Our support for members of the armed forces must take a proactive role in supporting legions in my be more than just symbolic. While it is important to pay constituency, such as the Halesowen British Legion, the tribute to them on Armed Forces day, we must make Blackheath British Legion and the Cradley British Legion, sure that we provide them with the practical support which lies just outside my constituency, and to drive they deserve all year round. That is why this Government forward the work they do in the local community? made honouring the armed forces covenant an important objective and why we enshrined in law its two key principles: that the armed forces community should not Mr Francois: I pay tribute to the two local councils in face disadvantage with regard to the provision of public my hon. Friend’s constituency for signing the community and commercial services, and that special consideration covenant and to the Royal British Legion for everything is appropriate in some cases, particularly for those it has done specifically to encourage the community such as the injured and the bereaved who have given covenant campaign. As I said, over 330 councils have the most. already signed up. I understand that another cohort of councils is likely to sign up to it to coincide with Armed The Secretary of State for Defence is now obliged to Forces day and that another cohort is then expected in report annually to Parliament and to the country on the the run-up to Remembrance day 2013. I hope that, by implementation of the covenant, and the first of these the end of this year, the vast bulk of local authorities in reports was published in December last year. It is important the UK will have signed a community covenant. to this Government to make sure that we support our armed forces as best we can. The Chancellor demonstrated this by allocating £35 million from the fines levied on Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): banks for attempting to manipulate the LIBOR interest In areas of the United Kingdom such as Northern rate to support the armed forces covenant, mainly through Ireland, where there are some problems in trying to get grants to service charities. The first tranche of this the establishment of the community covenant and where funding included £1 million for Fisher House, which those of a political disposition such as Sinn Fein and provides accommodation for the families of wounded others might for whatever reason have a problem or an personnel being treated at Queen Elizabeth hospital in issue with it, does the Minister agree that whatever the Birmingham. Fisher House was opened by His Royal resistance or opposition of those groups, they should at Highness, the Prince of Wales, only last Friday; I was least have the maturity to stand aside in a mature, privileged to be able to attend and to have the opportunity professional and even-handed fashion and allow the to visit some of the wounded while I was there. rest of the community—of all sides—to be able to pay tribute to our armed forces?

Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I would like Mr Francois: I am well aware of that background, to join the whole House in celebrating our armed forces. which is complex in some respects. I recently gave An issue that concerns me—a number of my constituents evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee on have contacted me about this—is that a significant precisely the issue raised by the hon. Gentleman. I also number of ex-armed forces personnel still find themselves visited Northern Ireland, and was briefed in detail by homeless. Does the Minister share my concern, and the commander of 38 Brigade on the implementation of what are the Government doing to try to deal with the the covenant at ground level. In terms of practical homelessness of armed forces personnel? day-to-day measures, it is working quite well. The after-care service is a very good example of the covenant in action in a bespoke Northern Ireland context. Nevertheless, I Mr Francois: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I shall hope that, over time, local authorities in Northern address that point specifically when I talk about the Ireland find themselves able to sign the community community covenant. I hope that I will be able to satisfy covenant. him when I get there. Let me give some examples of the way in which the The covenant is a contract between the armed forces community covenant is working in practice. Hampshire and the whole of society, and we understand that society county council is sharing best practice in the support of is much larger than just central government, so I am service children attending schools in its jurisdiction. pleased that initiatives such as the armed forces community Devon county council is identifying and supporting its covenant have gained such momentum. The community staff members who are reservists, helping to ensure that covenant is designed to deepen the integration of military their views and needs are represented. Westminster city and civil communities at the local level, ensuring that council is changing its procedures on housing allocation local authorities and other local organisations are well so that service personnel will not slip down the list if placed to understand and respond to the needs of their they are posted overseas on operations. We encourage armed forces communities. To date, over 330 local local authorities to give special consideration to veterans authorities have signed up—including all in Scotland—and when considering the allocation of service housing; the total represents more than three quarters of all the I hope that that helps to address the pertinent point local authorities in the United Kingdom. We are witnessing made by my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree many examples of the benefits that this scheme can (Mr Newmark). Cumulatively, those measures are having bring in practice. a positive impact on local armed forces communities. 243 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 244

I think it fair to say that, when it comes to the of the devolved Administrations, and Combat Stress community covenant, local government has well and ensures that we will all work collaboratively to support truly stood up, and I pay tribute to the Local Government the psychological needs of the armed forces community. Association and to local government more broadly for all that they have done. The covenant is producing real There is shared MOD and Department of Health and tangible results, and we are grateful for everything funding of the Big White Wall website. Serving personnel, that local government has done to enhance that. veterans and their families are allowed to join the site anonymously if they wish, and it provides innovative, patient-centred support for those who may need it. Our Andy Sawford: I agree with the Minister that local armed forces can also draw on a process called trauma government is playing an ever more important role in risk management, or TRiM. This is a peer group support supporting our armed forces community, but will he system, developed by 3 Commando Brigade, that is join me in welcoming other organisations, such as helping to identify those who may be at risk of mental Community Union, of which I am a member? It has health problems and provide support to them. In addition, shown its commitment to the armed forces by pledging as troops go through their decompression period in to become the armed forces union, reflecting its long Cyprus on return from operations, they are provided association with the armed forces in this country. with briefings, including specifically on mental health. That is particularly helping to tackle the stigma associated with mental health issues. Mr Francois: The hon. Gentleman told us earlier about the renaming of a local square, which I think is There has also been an uplift in the number of NHS very appropriate. He also referred to something that mental health professionals providing veteran-focused had been mentioned earlier by the shadow Secretary of mental health services. Working in partnership with State. [Interruption.] Give me a moment, and I may be Combat Stress, we now have around 50 professionals in able to say something more. My understanding is that place—more than the 30 originally recommended by people who have left the armed forces are already the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for perfectly at liberty to join a trade union, but the one South West Wiltshire, in his “Fighting Fit” report. mentioned by the hon. Gentleman is clearly an additional union that they can join if they wish. In addition, in terms of our obligation to provide wider, non-clinical support to the wounded, injured and We have focused intensively on the provision of health sick, there was a landmark achievement earlier this care for our service personnel. We have a duty to month when the defence recovery capability reached its provide those who put themselves in harm’s way on our full operating capability. The DRC provides members behalf with the very best health care and support. I of our armed forces with a tailored and holistic support have taken a strong personal interest in the issue. Since I package to help them readjust and recover from injury took up my post some nine months ago, I have visited or illness, helping to make sure they are provided with the Defence Medical Services headquarters in Whittington, the best care available. The Government have contributed the Role 3 hospital at Camp Bastion, the Royal Centre a quarter of a billion pounds for that purpose, but this for Defence Medicine at Queen Elizabeth hospital, would not have been possible without the very significant Birmingham, the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre contribution from service charities, in particular the at Headley Court, the Battle Back Centre at Lilleshall— Royal British Legion and Help for Heroes. This has which uses sporting activity to improve recovery—the been the largest single donation ever made by military personnel recovery centres at Tedworth House and charities, and we welcome it and the fact that that whole Colchester, the residential care centre run by Combat capability has now gone live. Stress at Tyrwhitt House in Leatherhead, and New Belvedere House, the Veterans Aid hostel in Limehouse The shadow Secretary of State raised the subject of in the east end of London. I hope the House will accept education. We take pride in the fact that our armed that I have been able to see for myself that real progress forces provide challenging and constructive education has already been made. and training opportunities for young people, equipping The Government have announced the provision of them with valuable and transferable skills. The services an additional £6.5 million to ensure that next-generation are among the largest training providers in the UK, microprocessor prosthetics—the so-called bionic legs—are with excellent completion and achievement rates, and available to injured serving personnel with above-the-knee the quality of our training and education is highly and through-the-knee amputations when that is clinically respected. appropriate. Those new legs are being fitted now. In his With support for education ranging from entry-level report, the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my literacy and numeracy to full postgraduate degrees, hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire service personnel are offered genuine progression routes (Dr Murrison), recommended that a small number of which allow them to develop, gain qualifications and multi-disciplinary centres should provide specialist play a fuller part in society either in the armed forces or prosthetic and rehabilitation services to ensure that in the civilian world. We raise literacy and numeracy veterans have access to the same high-quality care that achievement progressively through a soldier’s career up the armed forces provide, and the Government have to level 2—equivalent to GCSE grades A to C. Our committed £6.7 million over the next two years to basic training establishments are inspected by Ofsted, ensure that nine such NHS facilities are funded to which has rated most of them good or better. The provide that service. MOD works closely both with BIS, through its Skills We have also made advances in the field of mental Funding Agency, to support skills development, and with health. The signing of a strategic partnership by the an extensive range of colleges and other providers to deliver MOD, the four national health agencies, including those the education that its soldiers need. 245 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 246

[Mr Francois] being welcomed as heroes as they return. This moment represents an opportunity. My hon. Friend the Member The Army also enrols more than 95% of soldiers on for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) mentioned the an apprenticeship or advanced apprenticeship, with an possibility of more clearly encapsulating the services we achievement rate of almost 90%, the majority achieved provide for veterans. We have work ongoing in the within two years of enlistment. This is one of the largest Department to do exactly that, and I hope to be able to employer-based apprenticeship programmes in the UK, say more in the months ahead. encompassing over 35 different types of scheme or apprenticeship, and was most recently recognised by Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): We have rightly Ofsted as good. In the latest academic year, there were talked up how we deal with health care, housing and so over 10,000 apprenticeship completions by armed forces on for veterans. What about soldiers in the Army who personnel. I am sure the whole House will welcome want to remain in it but have been told they are being that. Studying in the workplace and doing relevant made redundant? On Monday I had a call on my contextualised learning has been shown to be very voicemail in my office from my constituent Mr John effective, particularly for some who did not have positive Bisset, who told me that his son has served for 16 years experiences at school. in the Black Watch but has now been told he will be In addition, the Troops to Teachers programme offers made redundant next year. How do we deal with that? a route for ex-service personnel to qualify as teachers How do we justify it? and bring military values to the classroom. This is an excellent example of people taking values and experience Mr Francois: We have had to take some extremely they have learnt in the armed forces into the classroom difficult decisions, and although I do not wish to spoil and transferring them to our young people. There has the bipartisan nature of this debate, the hon. Gentleman been a successful pilot scheme, which is now being will know what lay behind many of them: the very rolled out more widely across the country, particularly difficult financial situation we inherited in the Ministry from the beginning of the new academic year in September. of Defence. Having made that point, I will not dwell on it. From memory, just over 60% of those affected in The right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire mentioned tranche 1 were applicants who had applied for redundancy, legislation to deal with the disrespecting of service the tranche 2 figure was just over 70% and I believe the personnel in public. He may recall a private Member’s figure for tranche 3 was 84%, so a larger proportion of Bill debate on the issue involving the hon. Member for those in tranche 3 have applied to go voluntarily. However, Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). I we do realise that these are very difficult decisions and understand what the right hon. Gentleman is seeking to we provide support for all those leaving as redundees achieve, although at the risk of chiding him gently, I via the Career Transition Partnership, which has a very would remind him that the previous Labour Government good track record of getting people into employment looked at exactly the same issue and rejected legislating within six months or so of their leaving the forces. on it. It would therefore appear that there has been When people do leave the forces, we therefore do everything something of a change of heart by Labour. [Interruption.] we can to support them, but I say again that we had to The right hon. Gentleman attempts to intervene from a take some very difficult decisions because of what we sedentary position, but I did give a commitment when I were bequeathed. debated this issue with the hon. Member for Dunfermline Let me return to the point I was making about the and West Fife on that Friday that we would examine it post-2014 situation. As we shift from a period of operations in the context of the armed forces covenant report 2013, to one of contingency, we cannot and must not take the and that commitment will be honoured. I just make the public’s support for our armed forces for granted. We point that the Labour party considered whether to need to put in place now processes and procedures that legislate on this issue a few years ago and decided not to will endure well beyond the end of operations in 2014 to do so. harness all that public support and put it to maximum On legislation on reserves, the right hon. Gentleman good use. In that respect, we have been having detailed has similarly sought to float the idea of anti-discrimination discussions with the business community on how best legislation for employers. As a number of hon. Members to co-ordinate and maximise its support for the armed have pointed out, to make the growth of the reserves forces. We hope to have more to say about that in the succeed it is important to carry employers with us and very near future, and given that the right hon. Member make maximum use of their good will. Threatening for East Renfrewshire has said that when we do the them with legislation from the outset may not be the right thing he will support us, I hope we will enjoy his best way to do that, but he will have to wait to see what support for what we are going to do with business for we say in the White Paper, where we do refer to the our armed forces in the months and years ahead. issue. The role of reserves in our defence is vital. Since Let me say something about the situation post-2014 2003, there have been more than 25,000 mobilisations and then I will seek to bring my remarks to a close so of reservists, serving alongside their regular counterparts, that others can speak. The current level of backing for and 30 have paid the ultimate price in the service of service charities is testament to the British public’s their country. In the future, the reserves will be a fully support for our armed forces. They understand that integrated component of the armed forces and reserve they have been at war in Iraq and Afghanistan for more elements will routinely be required on most military than a decade, but that is changing. Afghan security operations. forces are now assuming control of their own security, which represents a real milestone in our progress towards Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Is the Minister ending combat operations in Afghanistan. We are starting aware that for Welsh people who particularly want to to bring our people back home, and they are rightly serve as reserves in the Royal Navy, the only opportunity 247 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 248 to do so is at HMS Cambria? Unfortunately, that is The covenant is not just a statement of aims, but an purely a land-based opportunity and they can have no active process. I have a copy of an update, completed at-sea training. Will the Minister see whether it is possible only this month, on the actions taken in Sheffield. For to ensure that HMS Cambria can provide Welsh people example, work is ongoing on a lettings policy that will with the opportunity for sea-based reserve training and recognise that those leaving the armed services have a opportunities? priority need for housing. Other work is going on in schools, to see what can be done with the curriculum. Mr Francois: I cannot pre-empt the outcome of the There is a community covenant, which brings in White Paper, which I can assure the House will be with many businesses in Sheffield. Companies offer work us very soon, but I will take away the specific point that experience opportunities so that those leaving the services the hon. Lady has raised on behalf of her constituents have the chance to try out a job before they apply for it. and seek to come back to her with a reply, which I will Support is also offered for making applications. We place in the Library of the House. have big companies involved in that and small businesses also offer support to our armed forces. There are also In conclusion, defence of the realm is the first duty of opportunities for leisure, with Sheffield international any Government. The men and women of our armed venues making available a free life card to anybody forces and the families who support them make that from the services. responsibility a reality through hard work, bravery and the application of incredible skill. In character and aptitude, It is not all sunshine and light, I am afraid. The first they represent the best people our society has to offer. It signature on the covenant is that of the lieutenant is only thanks to their sacrifice down through the years colonel of the 38th Signal Regiment, whose headquarters that we can live in a free and safe country and for that is in my constituency. The Signal Regiment has squadrons we should all be eternally grateful. and troops in Aberdeen, Banbury, Croydon, Leeds, Kingston, Milton Keynes, Nottingham, Rugby and its We have done much in just a few years to develop the headquarters in Sheffield. It plays an enormously important armed forces covenant: to improve health care, to support role. It provides information communication systems to mental well-being and to tackle the many other issues the emergency services and local government in an that are important to servicemen and women and their emergency. That is not something that it just practises families. But we need to do more, including, as I have and train for, something that I have seen troops doing said, harnessing business support for the armed forces when I have attended their annual camp. This has been covenant. brought into action in recent periods. The regiment On Armed Forces day this Saturday, we will pause to provided support to the Regular Army in the floods, remember how important those people are. Then we and during the foot and mouth and fuel crises. will come back to this place with renewed vigour, I am concerned that one of the changes that the concentrate on how we can support them better and get Government have seriously considered is moving the on with it. headquarters of this enormously important regiment from Sheffield. Members will have heard the spread of the regiment, and as it goes right from Scotland down 5.27 pm to the south of England, one would think that Sheffield was a good place for its HQ, being somewhere in the Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I am middle. delighted to have the opportunity to take part in the debate. In Sheffield, we are very go-ahead—so go-ahead, Perhaps more important, the community of Sheffield in fact, that we had our armed forces and veterans day supports our armed forces, not just in words but in celebrations last Saturday. It was a pleasure and honour deeds. We recruit the armed forces and we have good to be present and to have the opportunity to speak to cadet forces. We encourage our businesses to provide many of our veterans, some of whom are now well into support for people to take part in the reserve forces and their ‘90s and served in the second world war. There take on the kind of tasks that we have been discussing were veterans from throughout the age ranges as well as today. So I am most concerned that the Ministry of cadets, embarking on what we hope will be a career in Defence, as part of its review, is considering removing the armed forces. that headquarters, taking a significant reservists’ base away from one of the largest cities in this country. That Sheffield is not just go-ahead with the day on which cannot be right. The Minister has time to change his we celebrate our veterans and armed forces. We are very mind on this, look at it again and do something about it. go-ahead with the community covenant that the city has signed—I have a copy in my hand. The community covenant is meant to involve as many people in the 5.33 pm community as possible, and on Saturday, alongside Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): As the Member stalls from all the different services, a stall was set up by of Parliament for Aldershot, the home of the British Sheffield city council to encourage local people to sign Army, I am delighted to participate in this important up and make a difference. debate today. I am delighted that Her Majesty’s Loyal The covenant includes a commitment to recognise Opposition have brought forward this subject for debate. the contribution made by the armed services; to remember Like my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire the sacrifices made by members of the armed forces (Mr Gray), I could not possibly disagree with a single community; to share knowledge, experience and expertise word in the motion. I hope that the newspapers and to provide help and advice to members of the armed other media will take note that the House of Commons forces community; and to encourage integration as is today united in support of our armed forces, and that people move from service life into civilian life. we have complete respect for them and all that they do 249 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 250

[Sir Gerald Howarth] to the work force of the British defence industry and the support that they give to our armed forces, because they for our country. That is a substantial change from what deserve recognition. it was like when I first came here 30 years ago, when There will be continuing debate in the House about there was trench warfare between the parties—to use a the pressure on our armed forces. There is not time to military expression. That does not apply today. go down that avenue today, save by quoting General I salute the attempts that the previous Government Ray Odierno, the chief of staff of the United States made to engage the British people. I have no doubt that army, who said a couple of weeks ago: Armed Forces day, previously Veterans day, has served “As the British Army continues to reduce in size we’ve had as a valuable focus to draw the public’s attention to the several conversations about keeping them integrated in what we’re role played by our armed forces and to get behind them. trying to do…In a lot of ways they’re depending on us, especially That is evidenced by the huge amount of money that in our ground capabilities into the future.” the public willingly give to a range of charities—not We must bear in mind the role that the British Army just Help for Heroes but wonderful charities such as and our other services play throughout the world and Combat Stress. They have done a great job, as did alongside the United States. That is relevant to this General Lord Dannatt in encouraging the public to debate as although we are talking about the armed express their support for Her Majesty’s armed forces. forces covenant and support to the armed forces, we We will be marking Armed Forces day with a military must be careful, because if there is not a worthwhile festival in Aldershot for the whole of next week, and the career in the armed forces, we will face difficulties. Aldershot military will be part of the celebrations. I pay Time is short, so let me just say that our defence tribute to the outgoing military commanders in Aldershot: exports are fantastic. They were worth £9 billion last Colonel Mike Russell, the garrison commander, who year, which was a record year, and Britain continues to has done a fantastic job over a short time of liaising dominate. However, I would also say to my right hon. with the local community and running the garrison; Friend the Minister that the recent Supreme Court and Brigadier Neil Baverstock, the commander of ruling was an absolute disgrace. It will do severe damage 145 Brigade, who might be more widely known to hon. to the capacity of our commanders to ensure that they Members and has also done a superb job. He retires can make military decisions without being second-guessed from the Army this week to assume a role with a by the courts. wonderfully outmoded title in the other place, which he will be starting next month. 5.39 pm In addition to taking part in Armed Forces day, Aldershot will benefit from 750 extra troops who will be Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East coming to us following the repatriation of our forces Cleveland) (Lab): More than eight months ago one of from Germany. With the new building that is going on my constituents contacted me, fearing that, come April in Aldershot and the forthcoming Aldershot urban this year, her sons would be left homeless, owing to what extension, we have much about which to be encouraged has become known as the bedroom tax. Like thousands regarding the Army in Aldershot. of other people across Teesside and East Cleveland and The context of our debate is more difficult, however. the United Kingdom, my constituent, Alison, would As the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my right have had to find an extra £100 per month because she hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford was deemed to have spare rooms. For those hon. Members (Mr Francois), mentioned, we are having to make cuts not familiar with Alison’s story and therefore questioning to our armed forces, but that is difficult for Conservative the relevance of the bedroom tax to this debate, I hasten Members, because we believe that the defence of the to add that her two sons are both serving in the armed realm is the first duty of Government. However, the forces, one of them on the front line in Afghanistan as public finances that we inherited had been completely we speak. We have a proud military tradition in Teesside destroyed, so we have had to make unpleasant decisions. and East Cleveland and Alison’s story rightly began to I hope that our withdrawal from Afghanistan will reduce attract attention from the local media. the pressure on our armed forces, but I cannot be It was not too long ago that the armed forces covenant certain that Her Majesty’s Government will not be was enshrined in law. This was meant to recognise that faced with other emergencies throughout the world. the whole nation has a moral obligation to members of Given that the Prime Minister rightly wants the United the armed forces and their families, and it established Kingdom to play the significant role of trying to fashion how they should expect to be treated and to redress the the world in which we live, rather than simply reacting disadvantages that the armed forces community faces in to it, our armed forces are unlikely to be kicking their comparison with other citizens. heels on the parade ground in Colchester, Aldershot, Alison has been a tenant of the same housing association Catterick or Tidworth. for nearly two decades, and in this home she had Our armed forces are respected not only at home but single-handedly brought up her twin boys. Despite this abroad, and they leverage fantastic influence for the history, she spoke to her housing officer about moving United Kingdom. I welcome the defence engagement to a smaller property, only to be told that the association strategy, which I had some part in preparing when I was does not have enough one-bedroom properties to meet a Minister. There is a focus in the Ministry of Defence the needs of everyone. Alison was not opposing the on that strategy and on how we leverage defence diplomacy Government’s policy out of stubbornness. She was trying to the advantage of the United Kingdom to influence her hardest to adapt to it but, as we are finding out events in the world, as well as in the wider context of across the country, the policy is one of the most ill-thought supporting our defence industry. I am delighted that the out that this Government have implemented, and the Opposition’s excellent motion—I salute them for this—refers appropriate accommodation simply is not available. 251 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 252

In the months after Alison initially brought her situation families respected, and not to have to worry about their to my attention, national interest in the issue understandably parents while they are on operations and serving their peaked. Alison’s case was even raised by the Leader of country. the Opposition during Prime Minister’s questions, in The Government urgently need to clarify their guidelines which the Prime Minister insisted that the changes were that were supposed to exempt the families of members “fair”. Nevertheless, in early March this year, the coalition of the armed forces from the bedroom tax, yet Ministers Government performed an apparent U-turn when they seem to have created another discrepancy that is a direct made the following exemption: attack on those who are putting their lives on the line to “Adult children who are in the armed forces”— keep us all safe. The Government cannot get away with including the reserve forces— statements that appear to resolve an issue but which, in reality, are deliberately intended to be obtuse so as not “but who continue to live with parents will be treated as continuing to deliver any such promises. I hope Ministers will be to live at home, even when deployed on operations…In addition housing benefit recipients will not be subject to a non-dependent willing to meet me and other concerned MPs to exempt deduction, that is, the amount that those who are working are our armed forces finally from this tax. expected to contribute to the household expenses, until an adult child returns home.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2013; Vol. 560, 5.44 pm c. 9WS.] Members may now be thinking that that is an excellent Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I congratulate Her outcome and that the Government have realised their Majesty’s Opposition on the spirit of the motion and mistake and put it right, as did I, but unfortunately both the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire Alison’s story, and more than likely that of many others (Mr Murphy) and the Minister of State, Ministry of like her, does not end with this apparently successful Defence, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford change in policy. (Mr Francois), on their speeches. In endorsing everything said from both Front Benches, I wish to put on the It has been almost three months since the bedroom record my appreciation of 16 Air Assault Brigade, tax came into being and I am sure Members will have which is based at the Colchester garrison. I wish to noticed the impact of the policy on their work load. praise all the armed forces charities, including Combat Alison’s family has still been hit by the bedroom tax and Stress, Veterans Aid, the Royal British Legion, Help for she is now in rent arrears. The rushed U-turn has left Heroes, ABF The Soldiers Charity, formerly the Army the new rules unclear, with local authorities interpreting Benevolent Fund, SSAFA and a host of others, including them with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately, regimental charities. because of the way in which the Government have The Minister referred to the military wives choirs, of worded the regulations, only a tiny number of personnel, which there are now about 80, which I think is an primarily reservists, will be exempt. If they lived in incredible achievement in a relatively short period. I pay barracks prior to going away on operations and/or tribute to all those choirs. I am particularly proud of prior to commencing pre-deployment training, the the Colchester military wives choir, because earlier this Department for Work and Pensions holds that they are month it had the great honour of representing this not the claimant’s non-dependent children. Operations country and the military wives choir movement at the include deployment abroad, pre-deployment and the Canadian international military tattoo in Hamilton, debriefing process at end of deployment. Therefore, the Ontario. I know that they were warmly welcomed because exemption applies only to a small number of people, I was there cheering them on. and DWP Ministers have confirmed this in response to written questions. To all intents and purposes, the I referred earlier to military bands, which I believe are Government seem to be redefining what adult children an important part of the fabric of this country that who are members of the armed forces register as their bring together the armed forces and the general public. homes. In 1997 there were 29 Army bands, but today there are 22. Only last week, in answer to a written question, It is true that people can have a number of residences. the Minister said: However, for tax purposes, only one home or domicile “The number of army bands is currently under review as part is used. If, as seems to be suggested by Ministers who of the Future Music 2020 re-organisation programme, although have responded to questions on this issue from me and no decision has yet been made.”—[Official Report, 19 June 2013; from the shadow Work and Pensions Minister, the Vol. 564, c. 720W.] Government consider barracks the home of adult children I sincerely trust that there will be no further cuts. who usually live there, the barracks should be used for tax purposes also. The regulations suggest to working-class Bob Stewart: Military bands actually have another young men and women that joining the forces may role in battle. I used my military band to calm down a jeopardise their parents’ home—hardly a wise recruitment situation. In particular, I remember a piper playing on strategy. the roof of my building, which stopped the battle It is grossly unfair to differentiate on this basis. It is a completely. People were perhaps wondering what the very mean-spirited technicality. The motion we are here noise was, but it worked amazingly well. Military bands to debate today is one to celebrate and commemorate are very important in war. our armed forces, and the armed forces covenant is a key way for us to do this. It recognises that the whole Sir Bob Russell: I thank my hon. and gallant Friend nation has a moral obligation to members of the armed for that helpful contribution. forces and their families, and it establishes how they Earlier this month the Treasury put out some ignorant should expect to be treated. If that is the law, the least comments about the number of Army horses and tanks. our young adults serving in the armed forces deserve is Following that to its logical conclusion, I assume that to have their ability to live in their homes with their next year’s trooping the colour will take place on bikes. 253 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 254

The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew of the Falklands war. Does he accept that history is not kind to Robathan): The hon. Gentleman said that those comments Prime Ministers who are perceived to have left our country came from the Treasury, but I gently point out to him without a strong defence capability?”—[Official Report, 11 July 2012; that the person who actually made them is a member of Vol. 548, c. 309.] his part of the coalition. I do not think that trying to plug the gaps of a smaller regular force with reservists is the way forward. I support Sir Bob Russell: The Minister is absolutely right, but reservists, of course I do—we have fantastic Territorial of course the briefing was given by Treasury officials. I Army people in my constituency. However, cutting the do not think that the Defence Minister is saying that he Regular Army and trying to plug the gap with Army is never briefed by his officials. If that is the case, it is a reservists is not the solution. The move is being driven very worrying situation. by the Treasury. Those at Treasury questions today will With regard to the armed forces covenant, the Defence know the response to my question about how many Committee, of which I am a member, recently conducted civilian employees at HM Treasury had volunteered to an inquiry into education for the children of service join the Army reservists since requests for civilians were personnel. There is a conflict between the armed forces made in January this year: zero. covenant and the Education Act, both of which are laws Armed Forces day in my constituency was launched of this country, and that conflict needs to be addressed. yesterday in the town hall, with the mayor and garrison Other conflicts are emerging already between the armed commander in attendance. The town and garrison have forces covenant and the definition of social housing for excellent joint facilities, including the athletics track single former military personnel. I think that there has and the Phoenix club house, which I opened earlier this to be a ruling on that, because some local authorities month. are interpreting it differently from what the armed I end by praising the last Government for providing forces covenant means. I am concerned that the community the new Merville barracks, the best in the country, and covenant might, in some cases, be paying lip service, welcoming the current Government’s proposals for the rather than being a reality. We need to look at that. first world war commemorations, which will commence We also need to look again at serving Commonwealth in August next year. soldiers being obliged to leave compulsorily on health grounds and then not being treated by the armed forces 5.53 pm covenant. Again, the covenant is not being fair in the way the financial packages for voluntary redundancies Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I want to pay are being looked at. I have a constituent who accepted tribute to all the men and women who serve in the the terms of redundancy based on his years of service, armed forces and say how important it is that debates only to have the financial package withdrawn after he such as this are held so that we can express our gratitude agreed to leave. I think that case might end up in the for the service they give, the risks they face and the courts, so I will leave it there. bravery they show on behalf of the rest of us. The armed forces covenant has a long way to go with As I said earlier, the people of Dudley make a huge regard to the condition of Army family housing. The contribution to the armed forces through the Royal Government have been able to find money to upgrade Mercian and Lancastrian Yeomanry, a Territorial Army former military housing for use by civilian families, regiment with a base at Vicar street in Dudley. The which I support, but they claim that they do not have regiment has a history in the region dating back to the money to upgrade Army housing. I recognise that 1794, and A Squadron has had a base on Vicar street every pound of public money spent on those houses for more than 20 years. It attracts recruits from across boosts their value for Annington Homes—in a shameful the black country, having recently taken on 47 trainees; act, the last Conservative Government privatised the houses it is processing another 60 at the moment. Two dozen and in 13 years the last Labour Government failed to volunteers are currently on active service in Afghanistan. deal with the issue, although I raised it on many occasions. It is a popular and expanding squadron in a popular and expanding regiment with deep roots in the local Will the Ministry of Defence look at how the pay and and regional communities. In fact, it is one of the best dine operation works in practice? A car will run only if recruited yeomanry regiments in the whole Territorial it has petrol in the tank; our soldiers can operate at full Army. capacity only if they eat the right amount of food at the right times and in the right quantities. Ministers will be pleased to hear that the regiment is making exactly the sort of contribution they are asking Having praised those in uniform, I want also to for as they seek to double the size of the TA in the next praise the civilian work force, without whom our armed few years. However, under current proposals, the regiment forces could not operate. I include the Defence Support could be disbanded to make way for a new Scottish Group, the MOD police who under successive Governments regiment. A Squadron in Dudley would be merged with have taken a massive cut; in my constituency, 33 MOD B Squadron in Telford, and the Telford base would police officers have been reduced to zero. I should also cease to be a regional headquarters, becoming part of mention other guard services, the MOD fire service and the Royal Yeomanry regiment based in Croydon. The all the support staff—not forgetting Garrison FM, which Telford squadron would end up paired with a new operates in the principal garrison towns of this country. Queen’s Dragoon Guards regiment in the regular Army, I wish to broaden the wider military family and include based in Norfolk. Together with other changes to squadrons the cadet forces. in the midlands, this means that the RMLY would be The reduction in the size of the Army is not good disbanded, despite its history and the contribution that news. I repeat what I said to the Prime Minister: people in Dudley and the wider black country make to “On the Prime Minister’s watch, the Army will reduce to its it. The midlands would lose half of its five squadrons smallest size since 1750 and will be half the size it was at the time and a regional HQ. If we lost the Vicar street base, 255 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 256 people who have done a full day’s work in Dudley Everywhere you look in my constituency, Mr Deputy would have to travel 30 or 40 miles to do their training Speaker, there are historic buildings that tell the story of and fulfil their responsibilities in Telford, which is unlikely. our armed forces through the ages. You may not be Dudley would lose a central part of the community aware that it has even crept into our daily language. The at the heart of events that unify people in the town, expression “Up the creek without a paddle”, or more such as Remembrance day and our St George’s day colourful variations thereof, originated from Haslar parade, all to create a Scottish yeomanry, with great creek, where back in Nelson’s day wounded sailors were difficulty and huge expense, even though similar plans taken up to the Royal Navy Hospital Haslar to recover, have failed twice before. Even if bases in Dudley and or otherwise. Of course, in those days they were not Telford are maintained under the new structures, I necessarily as keen to be part of the Royal Navy as worry that they could be at risk in the long term because people might be these days. They were held prisoner so local reserve squadrons are best managed locally, not that they did not desert while being treated, and some from a headquarters 140 or 150 miles away. tried to escape by going through the sewers to the creek. Hannah Bragg has created a petition against I hope that these days people are much more inclined to disbandment, gaining huge support and over 1,300 remain part of our armed forces. signatures already. However, I urge the Minister not It is estimated that the armed forces community in only to listen to what she has said, and what I am Gosport comprises about 5,500 people. We have a very saying, but to seek the advice of the right hon. Member proud military wives choir—Portsmouth and Gosport for New Forest West (Mr Swayne), a former commanding military wives choir—and I went to hear them record tracks officer of A Squadron in Dudley. Will the Minister visit for their album. Fortunately they did not make me sing, Dudley to see for himself the brilliant work that is being which would have been a disaster for all concerned. carried out at Vicar street? Everyone accepts the case Gosport also has a high proportion of people who for pairing reserve units with their regular counterparts, are in receipt of armed forces pensions. At one in 16, it but other alternatives have been proposed. What thought is the highest proportion in Hampshire and the second has been given to, for example, preserving the RMLY highest in England. and pairing it with the Light Dragoons for closer co-operation? I hope that he will consider the alternatives. The armed forces community covenant was signed by In their responses to questions I have tabled and Hampshire county council in June 2011. Last November, letters I have written, Ministers have so far refused to on Remembrance Sunday, the Gosport armed forces comment on the future of the regiment. I very much community covenant was established to formally hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to acknowledge Gosport’s long affiliation with the armed guarantee the future of the Territorial Army in Dudley, forces. Those covenants are voluntary statements of and guarantee the future of the RMLY, so that my mutual support between the civilian community and constituents can continue to make the huge contribution serving and former members of the armed forces and to our nation’s defence that they have done so far. Will their families. Above all, they are about respect underlined he join me in congratulating the 47 new recruits and the with action. 60 new leads that are being processed? Does he agree The demands imposed on the armed forces in the that that is exactly the sort of contribution that he course of their duties are unique and set them apart wants local communities to make if we are to hit this from others who serve and protect our society. However, Government’s targets? there is the potential for disadvantage if national and The people of Britain show huge respect and support local government policies, as well as local communities, for the work of our armed forces. Nowhere is this more do not tackle the problems that military families encounter. true than in Dudley, where our local squadron and the One of those issues is the opportunity to balance wider regiment are at the heart of the community and military and family life. That is a particular problem in have the freedom of the borough. It is hugely important the Royal Navy, which has the most unfavourable harmony that the TA is not reorganised in a way that puts that in arrangements of the three main services. That is why it jeopardy. is so important that shore-based military training is delivered as close as is possible to the big military 5.57 pm communities. In Gosport, the marine engineering training Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I, too, welcome at HMS Sultan, which is rated outstanding by Ofsted, this debate and this opportunity to celebrate our armed gives Navy families a rare opportunity to live as a forces. normal family, with husbands and wives coming home Very few communities are more shaped by their every evening. relationship with our armed forces than my constituency Another big challenge is service mobility, which risks of Gosport. One need only look at the scale of our disadvantaging personnel and their dependants with community engagement in events such as the Remembrance regard to access to local public services, such as doctors Sunday parade, where thousand of people turn out to surgeries, schools and social housing. The rate of home watch representatives from all our military establishments ownership is lower among service personnel than in the parade through the town. Last year saw the parade for nation as a whole. Accessing school places has always the 30th anniversary of the Falklands war, when veterans been a challenge. The pupil premium that forces families from around the UK came to the town of Gosport. now receive is hugely welcome. However, accessing school Indeed, two of my favourite Doorkeepers from the House places continues to be a challenge. In big military of Commons were among those who took the time to communities, it is difficult for schools to maintain places parade through Gosport. The Falklands Veterans for forces families. One of my constituents has five Foundation is based in Gosport, offering invaluable children at four different schools, which causes enormous support to our brave veterans. difficulty. 257 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 258

[Caroline Dinenage] covenant, and the leader of the council, Mel Nott, has become our veterans champion. We take that responsibility The final problem relates to ongoing treatment and very seriously. On Friday, I will be attending a Royal support. Serving in the armed forces comes with the Navy eve of Armed Forces day reception at Coopers inherent risk of serious physical and mental injury, Field in Cardiff. The event will include a cadet field gun which can result in the need for ongoing treatment and demonstration. I am sure that the hon. Member for welfare support for service people and their families. I Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) will be pleased to know have talked about the legacy of the military buildings in that the Royal Marine band corps of drums will be Gosport, but there is a legacy in the people too. Many playing, and there will be a presentation by the Royal of my constituents have served in the armed forces. Navy presentation team. The following day, I will be Many have given up the best years of their life and their joining veterans, councillors and community organisations good health for our country. Tragically, this country has who are coming together for the Armed Forces day not always given enough back. I have been troubled on parade in Bridgend. countless occasions by the stories of ex-service personnel I raised a number of issues in an Adjournment debate who have not received the help that they need to make earlier this year. Following that debate, it was brought the difficult transition from the front line to civvy street. to my attention that the Armed Forces Act 2006 contains Many community organisations in my constituency an anomaly for which I can find no reasonable explanation. help service personnel who have not made that transition The Act contains a list of what are known as schedule 2 very well. The veteran mentors scheme that is run by the offences, and requires a commanding officer to report Hampshire probation trust helps former service people those offences to service police. Explicitly spelled out in who find themselves on the wrong side of the law by the Act is the exclusion of sections 3, 66, 67 and 71 of giving them mentors who have also been in the armed the Sexual Offences Act 2003 from schedule 2. These forces. As we all know, the armed forces, and the Royal sections cover sexual assault, exposure, voyeurism and Navy in particular, have their own language. I often receive sexual activity in a public lavatory. This means that if an e-mails that say “BZ” at the end. As you will know, individual reports any of these offences to their Mr Deputy Speaker, that means “well done”. I hope commanding officer, there is no requirement in law for that those people feel the same way after I have finished that report to be referred to the service police—the making this speech. It is important that military personnel report can stay within the chain of command. I can find are mentored by people who share that common language. no explanation for that. It was not clarified in the Public I am proud of some of the things that the Government Bill Committee’s deliberations, and the House of Commons have achieved. Taking the armed forces covenant seriously Library was unable to shed any light on it. To date, I has been a great achievement. I am proud that they are have not received a reply to a letter I wrote to the finally addressing the inequality with regard to medals Minister on 23 April on this issue. for Arctic convoy and Bomber Command veterans. As In the civilian world, no individual would be required a country, we are right to be proud of our military past. to report a sexual assault to their employer; they would We can now be proud of the future that we are securing go straight to the police. Their military counterparts are for our service people and veterans. at a distinct disadvantage. I draw the attention of Ministers to the YouTube clip of Lieutenant-General David Morrison speaking on sexual offences in the Australian military. 6.3 pm It is a fantastic clip, in which he makes it very clear that Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It is apposite sexual offences have no place in the Australian military. that we are having this debate today, because this evening He says that armed forces personnel should either I will have the huge pleasure of hosting an RAF Bomber “sign up or get out.” Command dinner as vice-chair of the all-party I hope we take that stance in this country. Men and parliamentary group for the armed forces with responsibility women must be able to serve with equality and safety in for the RAF. This evening, we will welcome Douglas our armed forces. Radcliffe MBE, a wireless operator; Commodore Charles I have also talked of the need for a service ombudsman. Clarke OBE, a navigator; Alf Huberman, Bob Gill Yet again, the Service Complaints Commissioner has DFM and Harry Irons DFC, air gunners; Doug Newham said that the service complaints system is not working LVO DFC, an observer; and Les Temple, who was on efficiently, effectively or fairly. There seems to be resistance special duties, all of whom were part of Bomber Command from the chain of command, who fear it would undermine during the last war. their authority. We cannot continue with a halfway The House will remember that Bomber Command house. Our servicemen and women deserve an ombudsman played a crucial part in maintaining this country’s freedom: who can take forward their complaints, so that they can 55,000 airmen lost their lives during the second world have a right to justice. war, a truly staggering death rate of 44.4%; 8,500 were wounded in action; and 10,000 were captured and interned. They were very young men—the average age was 22. 6.9 pm The group I am hosting this evening are, on the whole, Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I draw very old men, but men with a proud history of service the House’s attention to my interests as a member of to their country. I am pleased that many colleagues will the reserve forces. be joining me to welcome them here to this House tonight. I start by paying tribute to all our armed forces, all Armed Forces day is very important. Not only are we who support them and, given the flavour of previous recognising the past, but we are looking at what we do speeches, to the awesome Portsmouth military wives for our armed forces in the present. My local authority, choir, but it will be no surprise to the Minister that I Bridgend county borough council, has signed a community wish to focus my speech on the issue of the Service 259 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 260

Complaints Commissioner. I am extremely pleased with and security review; and the challenges and opportunities the work that Ministers have done on this, and with that will confront us as we approach the end of over a their recognition of the importance of the role and of decade of expeditionary operations. the fact that it must be reformed. It is vital that we get Since becoming an MP, I have had the opportunity to this to work, especially in very serious cases such as increase my familiarity with the armed forces, particularly physical and sexual assault, or where psychological and with the Army, a great deal. I have visited British Army medical help is needed, or where the family is in need Training Unit Suffield in Canada, the armour centre in too. Bovington, the Army Foundation College for our youngest In one case I have dealt with, the armed forces personnel and, of course, Camp Bastion in Afghanistan. completely failed a young soldier who was beaten, I have spent time everywhere, from my local recruiting burned and sexually assaulted by men in his unit and, office in Manchester to the Defence Academy at after making a complaint, was placed back in the unit Shrivenham. I have done that because if I have to make with the assailants. He received no help, despite two decisions about voting to deploy British service personnel suicide attempts. When he was returned to his parents’ abroad—putting them in harm’s way—I want to know home, the family were unable to cope with his considerable first hand about the training, equipment and preparation distress and no help was made available to them. they have received. This experience, and evidence gathered by the Defence The high standard of training and the professional Select Committee, has led me to conclude that the role identity of armed forces are extremely impressive. The must be able to compel the armed forces to act. The British armed forces are among the best—if not the commissioner’s role must be to intervene when a complaint best—in the world. I believe that that strength comes is live, to be proactive and to be able to spot trends, act from three things: the quality of our recruits, the quality on them and head off trouble. Arguments deployed of the training they receive, and the common identity against the Service Complaints Commissioner having that is instilled in our people by the units themselves an ombudsman role have included that it would interfere and, in particular, the regimental system. I am extremely with the chain of command and that the role would proud of the regiments associated with my constituency: constrict the complaints commissioner from acting on the Mercians, the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment and live complaints. The Defence Committee has outlined the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. how both of these concerns can be met within an ombudsman role. Bob Stewart: Everybody in the House is worried about the recent High Court ruling, which has already I am pleased with the work that Ministers have done been alluded to. It is extremely difficult for commanding on this issue and that they have made it a priority. I officers to make decisions that put their men or women believe that they are extremely sympathetic to reforming in peril, but now they have to consider whether they this position, but I know from the few years that I have might be dragged before a court of law for a decision spent in this place that a Minister knowing the right they make in good faith and in the height of a battle. thing to do is the easy part; it is making it happen that is The House has to sort this out and direct the law the tough part. accordingly. May I take this opportunity to urge the ministerial team to pursue the request to beef up the role? The Jonathan Reynolds: I appreciate that intervention from British Legion has highlighted that an ombudsman role the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who speaks with particular would be much better understood by service personnel authority on this matter. I am glad he has had the themselves. It must be able to act on live complaints and opportunity to put that on the record, and of course he to compel the armed forces to act and a complaint must can give us a greater insight than perhaps anyone else in not necessarily close if a service man or woman is the House on that point. killed. Where there are systematic problems in our The people I represent have tremendous pride and armed forces, they must be dealt with proactively. Our faith in the regiments associated with my constituency, armed forces have nothing to fear from an ombudsman which unfortunately has had to contend with a considerable role and everything to gain. I urge Ministers to pursue number of casualties in Afghanistan. I have seen how this agenda relentlessly. We must settle it way in advance the regiments continue to support those families and of a new Service Complaints Commissioner coming how they become part of their own family, but I do not into post. think that this is widely understood or appreciated by the public. I cannot begin to understand how a family 6.17 pm must feel when, knowing that their child is away on operational duty, they open the door to see military Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): personnel standing there and realise that it cannot be It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate. There is an good news. When I talk to families in my constituency incredible amount of expertise on and passion for the who have been in that position, I am impressed by how armed forces in Parliament, as we have heard today, and the regiments continue to support them. I believe that as the secretary of the all-party parliamentary group for all the branches of the armed forces, but particularly the armed forces, it is a privilege for me to be able to see the Army, are fundamentally important national that passion regularly come through in the events that institutions, and part of being a one-nation party means we organise. promoting those national institutions that bind the I would like to make a few points. They include: the country together. The Army is a particularly fine example importance of the armed forces as institutions in this of such an institution. country; their changing nature, as the Government seek The make-up of the Army is changing considerably to replace professional servicemen and women with an under the Government’s plans following the strategic increased reserve force following the strategic defence defence and security review. The Army will now comprise 261 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 262

[Jonathan Reynolds] least some questions of Ministers, in the hope that they will at least reflect on them and perhaps return later. a smaller regular force and be more dependent on I am concerned, as are a number of Members on reserves, as we have heard. I have the greatest of respect these Benches, that by keeping on cutting defence for our reserve forces, especially given the role they have expenditure, we risk creating imbalances on a variety of played in Iraq and Afghanistan, but this will pose fronts. Can it be right, for example, that the budgets of substantial challenges. We should carefully consider Departments dealing with health, welfare and international what the effects might be on our reservists, their families aid are being protected, if not expanded, as a percentage and their employers, particularly if we find ourselves of Government expenditure? That puts disproportionate embarking on another military deployment of a similar pressure on other Departments, such as Defence, when scale to the one now drawing to an end in Afghanistan. trying to save costs. I also wonder whether imbalances Let us consider what we ask of our reserves: we are being created in regard to our transatlantic relationship. expect them to train in their spare time to reach the Our defence capability is one of the key anchors of that same standard as full-time professionals; to be prepared relationship, but it is not a one-way ticket. There are to put their civilian lives and civilian jobs on hold for obligations on both sides, including our own. If we keep lengthy tours of duty, possibly involving combat; and shaving our defence capability, might we put elements then to slot back seamlessly into civilian life at the end of that relationship at risk? of it, only perhaps to do the same again within a year. I also suggest that we might be creating imbalances in That puts a real strain on people, so I urge the Government other areas, such as our capability to meet our foreign to consider whether the harmony guidelines that exist policy objectives, whatever they might be, and defend to maintain a balance between time on deployment and our interests overseas. The House knows that I have not ordinary service will still be suitable for a military been supportive of our military interventions over the comprising a greater number of reservists. We might past decade, but let us put that to one side. There have also have to consider stronger statutory protections for been moments during those interventions when our reservists who serve on operations and to promote and resources have not matched our ambitions. It was not praise employers who correctly recognise that it is strongly the fault of the troops on the ground, but in Iraq and in their interests to support employees who wish to do Afghanistan in particular the necessary resources were this. lacking, and that had a knock-on effect on our ability to The SDSR is not the only reason we should give achieve our objectives. serious thought to our armed forces over the next few I have other concerns but, as an ex-soldier, I shall years. As we near the end of our involvement in more focus on the Army. The plan to disband 20,000 regulars than a decade of war in Afghanistan, it will soon be an before knowing whether the plan to recruit 30,000 appropriate juncture to ask what lessons we can learn reservists to take their place will work is high risk, given from that deployment. I am not seeking a grandstanding that we do not know whether those reservists will be public inquiry or suggesting a political reckoning; I am able to plug the gap from a capability point of view, or simply saying that we must critically evaluate how we from a boots-on-the-ground point of view. I ask Ministers have fought and managed this difficult conflict. Do we to ensure that that issue is centrally addressed in the believe, for instance, that the strategic decisions made forthcoming White Paper. There are key questions that were the right ones? Did we initially get our force need answering very soon, because redundancies are rotation right? Did the frequent change of tactics with taking effect as we speak, and we do not know whether each new deployment hinder our initial progress? the plan will work. We have made real improvements in Afghanistan, but There is a real danger that Government proposals that has come at a great cost to this country in blood will prove a false economy, in financial terms and in and treasure, so we owe it to constituencies such as terms of military capability. Let us take cost savings as mine, which have suffered a lot, and to the armed forces an example. I am conscious of the figure of £1.8 billion as a whole to evaluate the mission critically and to seek over 10 years, and more details will follow in the White to make improvements for the future. We can never do Paper, but at the moment the Government are long on enough to make our people safer, better cared for and promise and short on costings and details. They have better equipped to succeed. admitted in the Green Paper that it costs more to train This Saturday, as we celebrate the contribution our reservists than regulars. The financial incentives being armed forces make to our country, hon. Members should offered to regulars to join the reserves mean that they consider how we can maintain the identities and institutions will be on a better scale of pay than a serving brigadier, that are fundamental to the strength of our armed if we include the £5,000 sign-up bonus, the bounty, the forces; what new issues we need to address as reservists daily rate and so forth. There is also the question of play an ever greater role; and what we can learn from civilian salaries being matched, although I am aware more than a decade of fighting in Afghanistan. I am that the Government are considering capping an element extremely proud of our armed forces, and I believe we of that. Again, we need to see the details. And all that is must honour our duties to them as dutifully as they before we even consider the fact that the reservists will protect us. not be deployable in their first year. I have already raised the question of the number of 6.18 pm reservists that will be required. According to Ministry of Defence figures, the present Territorial Army Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): We mobilisation rate is 40%. If we apply that to the 20,000 can disagree with nothing in the motion, but without regulars, we will need 50,000 reservists. I look forward wishing to break the consensual mood of the House, I to seeing the details of how that magic figure of 40% is think that this is too good an opportunity not to ask at going to be increased. It will take a concerted effort to 263 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 264 achieve a mobilisation rate of much more than 40%, We must all agree today that the armed forces are given that many people in the Army believe that we are deserving of our respect, support and help. The veterans’ not even hitting 40% at the moment. flag will fly this Saturday in the town of Newtonards in There is also the question of the capability gap. In the my Strangford constituency. Through the hard work 1980s, when many of us served, the TA did a very good done by the Ards borough council and the Reserve job that basically involved reservists being transported Forces and Cadets Association Northern Ireland, a out to Germany, digging a trench and waiting for the veterans’ event has been arranged for September this Soviet or Warsaw pact forces to arrive. Today, asymmetric year. warfare is becoming the norm. The skills base will I am pleased that the motion makes reference to the become much higher, and our requirements will be armed forces covenant—a subject to close to my heart, much more demanding, yet I understand that the number for which the Democratic Unionist party has been of training days is being increased to 40 overall—an pressing in Northern Ireland. Let me quote from a increase of only five days. I question that on the capability debate on Northern Ireland affairs: front, particularly when those forces are going to be “A recent report published by the World Health Organisation mobilised as groups rather than as add-ons. That factor on post-traumatic stress disorder found that Northern Ireland must be considered. had a higher incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than any other conflict-related country in the world”— Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does my ahead of Lebanon and Israel. The study showed that hon. Friend share my fear that, with the scale of priorities “nearly 40% of people in Northern Ireland had been involved in we have at the moment, there is a danger that if we some kind of conflict-related traumatic incident.”—[Official Report, reduce the size of the Army much more, they will all be 21 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 642.] able to fit into the single first High Speed 2 train? The survey estimated that about 18,000 people in Northern Ireland had developed mental health problems as a Mr Baron: Let us hope it is not a one-way ticket! result. There is already a huge demand on relevant Let me finish with a concern some of us have about services from across Northern Ireland as a result of the potentially distorting effect on the ground. Excellent, trauma-related illnesses arising from this conflict, which well recruited battalions, such as the 2nd Battalion the underlines the seriousness of the issues. This tells us Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, are being axed, while more that there is such a heavy strain on these services that poorly recruited battalions are being saved. It is costing they are not able to take care of our service personnel, millions of pounds to keep over-strength battalions up which we should be able to do. to the mark. Such a policy is, in many respects, simply We need a covenant in place. That is the issue to reinforcing failure. which I ask the Government to respond. We need our In conclusion, I think this is a high-risk policy, and I Government to follow this through with specific funding, ask Ministers to make sure that they cover the base very as befits MOD issues, as well as action to bring Northern carefully. In my view, we need to see concrete evidence Ireland up to the standard of the rest of the United that the reservist plan will take effect and will work—before Kingdom. We have heard much about what is happening we let the regular battalions go. Here we are dealing in England, much about what is happening in Scotland, with the defence of the realm, and this is happening but I want to see the same thing happening for Northern when many countries not necessarily friendly to the Ireland. west are arming and increasing their expenditure on I was dismayed to read a report of what was said—I defence. No one here can tell when or where the next pay no disrespect to the Minister of State, Ministry of threat will come from. I therefore ask Ministers to Defence, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford consider these points very carefully. (Mr Francois)—in the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee. When asked about the Welsh level of care in comparison Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): There are with other devolved nations, he said: three Members still to speak and we have only 15 minutes “We have a particular challenge in Northern Ireland because before the winding-up speeches. of some of the Sinn Fein-run authorities’ views on the covenant and what it represents. In Northern Ireland, this is particularly sensitive and difficult, so if you’re talking about a score card we 6.26 pm would have to take that into account.” Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I rise to thank the That is not acceptable to me or to the people of Northern shadow Minister and the Opposition for bringing this Ireland; nor is it acceptable to the families of service motion before the House for debate today. Every Member personnel who come back changed and need specialised will be aware of my support for the armed forces. I have and specific help. been a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Northern Ireland, despite her small size, still contributes Territorial Army in the past and I have had the opportunity 20% of the reserve forces to the Army. Recruitment to travel with other Members through the armed forces spans the Catholic and Protestant divide, which is to be parliamentary scheme. That allowed me to see a glimpse encouraged. It is good to see things moving forward. of what our armed forces do. I have been on a Navy The Northern Ireland cadets, for instance, have had the ship and been to Afghanistan, and I have had the largest number of recruits for years. In some sections of privilege to watch the intensive and back-breaking training the cadet force, the ratio of Protestants to Roman done by each man and woman who serve, whether it be Catholics is 50:50. That will give the House some idea at Catterick, Sandhurst, Canada, Kenya or Cyprus. I of how far things have advanced as a result of the am a keen supporter of our armed forces, and I will Northern Ireland political process, and of the positive continue to be so. effect of what we have been trying to do. 265 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 266

Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am grateful to Let me now say something about the charities that the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene, especially support our armed forces. I want to focus on the work as I was not able to be present at the beginning of this of Veterans Contact Point, a wonderful organisation important debate. Will he take this opportunity to put that is based in Nuneaton town hall. It has three notable on record the deep appreciation that is felt by many features. First, it is entirely run by volunteers, who are people throughout Northern Ireland for the Royal British former members of the forces themselves and who Legion, and for the many other charities that have understand the issues that confront service personnel supported the armed forces throughout the worst of the when they arrive on civvy street. Many of those who times and the troubles, and continue to do so in what run the organisation have also experienced problems are now, thank goodness, peaceful times in Northern after leaving the services, and are therefore well placed Ireland? to provide our veterans with advice, guidance, signposting and other forms of practical support and help. Jim Shannon: I certainly subscribe to that sentiment. The success of Veterans Contact Point lies in the help We have been extremely lucky to benefit from the work that it gives to the cohort of people with whom it of the many organisations, including the SAAFA group, engages most: those who find it difficult to reintegrate Combat Stress and Help the Heroes, which have done when they leave the armed forces and return to civvy so much for us. street. Many of these people have a problem with The Ulster Defence Regiment and the Home Service dependency on drugs or drink, or have been in trouble battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment operate a care with the police or have been in contact with the probation service that could perhaps be extended to those serving service, and might have been in prison. The project is in the British armed forces. I also ask the Government led by Len Hardy, the Warwickshire Probation Trust to consider using buildings that were used during Operation veterans champion, who has done a magnificent job. It Banner for the benefit of ex-service personnel. I think has been extremely effective in providing a holistic that we should do more than just ask the House to service for our veterans in Coventry and Warwickshire, accept the words in the motion. because it has brought together elements of Government Let me end by saying that, to me, “We will remember and our charities. I want to mention in particular the them” is not merely a phrase; it is a promise. We should important input of the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and not wait any longer to demonstrate that ex-service Families Association, the local Nuneaton and Bedworth personnel in Northern Ireland are in our remembrance— branch of the Royal British Legion, the Scraping the today in the House, and tomorrow, as we begin to Barrel charity, ABF The Soldiers Charity, which was implement the changes that are so desperately needed. known as the Army Benevolent Fund, and the European Social Fund. I would like a Minister to come and observe this excellent service in action, because it provides 6.31 pm a huge amount of community good and a huge amount Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I thank the of support for those coming out of our armed forces. hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his My third point is about how people in public service, brevity, which has enabled me to speak in the debate. local authorities and the Government support our veterans I welcome the motion. I have been in the House for community. Veterans Contact Point has had a very three years, and this is one of the first Opposition days mixed response from local government and as a result that I can remember on which I have been unable to may have to move venues. I do not want to be political, object to the cut of the jib of those on the Opposition but we need to make sure, across the piece in local and Front Bench. What does disappoint me is that there is national Government, that we do all we can to support no military wives choir or band for me to say a great such organisations. I have had some discussions with deal about. Veterans Contact Point about the community covenant grant scheme, and we need to address the way in which I shall speak first about the importance of Armed it works, as my understanding is that some of the Forces day, then about charities that support our armed bureaucracy has caused an issue in relation to accessing forces and veterans, and finally about the penultimate grants. section of the motion, which refers to the role of those in public life and to what more can be done by central I endorse the sentiment of the motion. I will support and local government to help veterans. Armed Forces day on Saturday, and I look forward to seeing a fantastic response to our armed forces, veterans I think that 10 or 15 years ago there was a great deal and their families across the country. of apathy in the country about the work of our armed forces, but over the past decade or so that has given way 6.36 pm to a return of great enthusiasm for them. One of the few positive consequences of our engagements in Afghanistan Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I thank the and Iraq is the fact that the armed forces are now Opposition for this opportunity to pay tribute to the treated far better, and are seen in a far better light. Armed courage and commitment of all our armed forces. My Forces day has become a vital way of enabling the constituency has a strong military heritage, contributing country to show its appreciation and support for our many winners of the Victoria Cross—far more than would forces. I shall be in Nuneaton on Saturday to support be expected from a town of its size. I have had many Armed Forces day. I look forward to that, and to the gallant predecessors myself, too, including the first, and launch of the Defence Discount Service’s privilege card, first Liberal, MP for Cheltenham, the hon. Craven Berkeley, which will also take place on Saturday. That is a small and Douglas Dodds-Parker, who was a Conservative thing for most people in the armed forces community, MP in the post-war period and who served in the but it provides another way for us to show our support Special Operations Executive in the second world war for them. with great distinction. I should also mention his successor, 267 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 268

Charles Irving, who was deemed insufficiently robust 300 women of steel. These 300 women helped to keep for front-line service and famously bayoneted a retired the Sheffield steel industry going during the second lieutenant-general in the backside while on service in world war and they are held in high esteem in that city. the Home Guard. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) More distinguished service was seen by many —a very old friend of mine from our days on the Gloucestershire soldiers, airmen and sailors in two world Defence Committee—talked about the contribution of wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Korea and in earlier his constituency to the British Army. May I join in his conflicts. The Gloucestershire Regiment is now part of comments about the tremendous contribution that 1 Rifles, whose soldiers still proudly wear the back Aldershot makes to the British armed forces? He also badge won by the “Glosters” at the battle of Alexandria highlights the important role of defence industries across in 1801, when they showed almost inhuman courage by the UK. We could not equip our armed forces and carry turning back to back to face simultaneous French attacks out the operations we ask them to do without the support from front and rear. They showed equally heroic courage of those industries. He also congratulated the previous at the battle of Imjin river in Korea in 1951, tragically Labour Government on Veterans day and the formation losing 620 men in that one battle. Gloucestershire’s military of Armed Forces day. I am not sure that he will agree tradition is also still represented by the Gloucestershire that he will also want to thank Lord Davies of Stamford, Hussars. As part of the Territorial Army, it counts who was the architect of Veterans day in his report. The Tobruk and Gallipoli among its battle honours. I hope hon. Gentleman will also wish to thank my right such local connections are not lost in the future reserves hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East development. (Mr Ainsworth), who was also instrumental in developing We also have the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps in Armed Forces day. Gloucestershire, an astonishing outfit of 16 nationalities The hon. Gentleman said that, as a Conservative, he capable of deploying for NATO at five days’ notice. It did not get elected to cut members of the armed forces is, perhaps, a model of the kind of new flexible, fleet and then digressed into what we usually hear by blaming military that we need to create for the 21st century. the previous Labour Government for the deficit. We We also have strong connections to the defence industry, must recall that he was an Opposition Front-Bench started by George Dowty in the 1930s and now represented spokesman and they supported our spending commitments by companies such as GE Aviation and Messier-Bugatti- right up to 2008. May I gently remind him that he was Dowty, and companies like the Omega Resource Group, also calling for a larger Army, a larger Air Force and a started by former soldier Jon Penhale. I am very grateful larger Navy? to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough for meeting me to discuss Omega’s approach to providing South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) rightly employment and training opportunities for soldiers designed raised the case of his constituent Alison, and I pay by former soldiers and recognising the unique challenges tribute to him for how tenaciously he has championed that they face. her interests. She finds herself in a terrible situation, where she proudly has two sons in the armed forces but Not only are the Government doing the right thing to is losing out because of the Government’s bedroom tax. develop an armed forces fit for the 21st century, with I know that the Minister has sympathy with this case much greater emphasis on better integrated reserves, and I share his frustration that the decisions of other but they are right to have tackled some of the difficult Departments sometimes have an unintended impact on challenges of the Ministry of Defence budget and defence the members of the armed forces. However, this situation procurement. Those are difficult things to face up to, does need urgent clarity, because Alison and many but they are necessary steps that have to be taken if we others will rightly feel let down by the fact that she are to make an armed forces that are not only fit for the thought the Government had done a U-turn on this but 21st century in military terms, but financially sustainable. they clearly have not. This should be pursued as a I am happy to endorse Armed Forces day today— matter of urgency. When I challenged the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Mr Speaker: Order. We thank the hon. Gentleman Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb) on it, he for his contribution but we are now going to have a was not sympathetic at all, but I am sure that the Front-Bench speech from Mr Kevan Jones. Minister in this debate will raise these issues with him. The hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) 6.40 pm reminded us, as if we needed any reminding, that 16 Air Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): First, I Assault Brigade is based in Colchester and gave us the thank the 13 Members for their contributions to a good first reference to the military wives choir. debate that has highlighted the respect that Members of He also referred to Army bands. As the Minister for the the House have for our armed forces and the importance Armed Forces rightly pointed out, the person who was that they give to their role. arguing for fewer military horses was the Chief Secretary My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley to the Treasury, who is a Liberal Democrat. Then again, (Meg Munn) talked about the contribution of Sheffield the hon. Member for Colchester is one of those individuals and her constituents to the armed forces. She described who, as Liberal Democrats quite easily can, protests how the local community covenant was not just a piece against the cuts in the size of the Army when he is part of paper and discussed the work that was happening of the Government who are making them. I am glad practically on the ground with local people and businesses. that the hon. Gentleman grudgingly agreed at the end I know that Sheffield has a proud history, because when of his speech that the previous Labour Government did I was Veterans Minister, I had the privilege of meeting a lot to improve housing in his constituency. I tried to 269 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 270

[Mr Kevan Jones] When I was a Minister I visited Northern Ireland on a number of occasions and witnessed the tremendous unpick the shambles of the Annington Homes contract, dedication of veterans, their proud history and the but it was not possible, and he is right that it was a very contribution that members from both communities in bad deal for the taxpayer. Northern Ireland are making today to our armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) mentioned Austin) mentioned the contribution his constituency the Veterans Contact Point in his constituency. He makes to the armed forces, as well as the RMLYand the made the important point that many of these people are fantastic job it is doing to recruit reservists to the volunteers. I take this opportunity to put on record my reserve forces. I congratulate the 47 individuals who thanks and those of the House to the army of volunteers have joined. who work tirelessly within all charities throughout the The hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) country to support our veterans and members of the helped me out for the next pub quiz I attend by giving armed forces. the meaning and background of the phrase “up the The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) creek without a paddle”—I am sure that many Defence raised the proud history of Gloucestershire and the Ministers must think on occasion that they are. That joint rapid reaction force. I am glad that it is bedded in. information will obviously be of great use. She also made It was set up on my watch in the MOD and it was a an important point about family life. We sometimes complex move, but I think it was a successful one. He forget that families are important through the support also rightly paid tribute to the defence companies, both they give to members of the armed forces. large and small. There are many large defence companies I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for in the UK, but we should not forget the SMEs and Bridgend (Mrs Moon) for the work she does on the RAF small companies, which make a huge contribution. for the all-party group. She is a great advocate for the I thank all for their contributions today. Let us hope RAF in this House. I also congratulate her for organising that the events of this weekend will not only reinforce tonight’s Bomber Command dinner, which I will be the public’s support for members of our armed forces attending. I looking forward to meeting many of the but give us an opportunity to remember those who have veterans she spoke about. My hon. Friend and the hon. lost their lives in recent conflicts and those who have Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) been wounded both physically and mentally in the mentioned the armed forces ombudsman. I, too, pay tribute service of their country. to Susan Atkins, the service complaints commissioner for the armed forces. I remember when the post was 6.50 pm brought in following a good report from the Defence Committee on the tragic events at Deepcut, and the The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew resistance from service chiefs, who thought that it would Robathan): I am pretty sure that I do not have to, but I be the end of the world if we had a service complaints will anyway, declare that I am in receipt of a service commissioner. It clearly has not been. The hon. Lady pension so I have an interest in this debate. said that the armed forces had “nothing to fear” from I will not be able to respond to all the points that have an ombudsman. I reiterate that and totally agree with been raised today, but I will try. I know that hon. her points. I hope that the Government will take that on Members on both sides of the House will not be hesitant board. in sending me letters if they want a particular point My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and answered to which I have not been able to respond. Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) mentioned the Army’s links Today’s debate has been remarkably consensual, which to the armed forces parliamentary scheme and the I welcome. It has demonstrated that Members of the proud history of his constituency’s links with the Duke House care passionately about supporting our service of Lancaster’s Regiment and the Fusiliers. He rightly personnel. We are fortunate to be able to rely on the did not forget the casualties that have taken place in men and women of our armed forces, for whom as Afghanistan and other conflicts and raised questions Minister for the Armed Forces I have some responsibility. about the strategy the Government are pursuing on the It is a much over-used word, but it is a real privilege to Afghan draw-down. have that responsibility and to work with members of The hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay our armed forces. I know that the hon. Member for (Mr Baron), who has a great deal of experience in the North Durham (Mr Jones) has done that, as well as reserve forces, raised the legitimate concerns of many others in the House. people, even in the reserves, about the Government’s The dedication of our armed forces to maintaining gamble in reducing the regular Army before putting the our security and protecting our interests and values detailed plans in place to recruit reservists. It is a little means that Britain is able to act as a force for good in like putting the cart before the horse and I agree with the world, defending our national interests and our him that that is a high-risk strategy. Recruitment levels international obligations. We are all proud of what will be difficult to achieve and without proper protection they do. in the workplace, many people will not be willing to I was in Scotland this morning visiting one of our volunteer for the armed forces. We will see how the deterrent submarines and the submarine service on the plans are rolled out, but it would have been useful to see Clyde, and it was extremely impressive and very professional. the White Paper before the Government embarked on I know that other hon. Members will have seen that as the strategy, rather than halfway through the process. well. The role of the armed forces both in the deterrent The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and elsewhere is difficult and sometimes dangerous. I mentioned the contribution of the people of Northern pay tribute to their bravery and professionalism, which Ireland to the armed forces. I pay tribute to them. represent the very best qualities our nation has to offer. 271 Armed Forces25 JUNE 2013 Armed Forces 272

We owe them and the families who support them an Defence police, I saw them yesterday at Coulport. They enormous debt of gratitude. That is why the Government do a good job there and I pay tribute to them on my are committed to supporting the success of Armed hon. Friend’s behalf. Forces day, which was indeed introduced by the previous The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) Government. It allows the public to express their talked about the Royal Mercian and Lancastrian Yeomanry. appreciation of those who have served their country. I fear that I cannot pre-empt the White Paper, but I I was going to say that the right hon. Member for certainly would not want any damage to be done to the East Ranfrewshire, sorry Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy)— recruitment of reservists in Dudley. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Mr Murphy: It is not that hard to say. Dinenage) talked about the proud and close relationship between the Navy and her constituency. Indeed, my Mr Robathan: Sorry, it is for me. I was going to say undistinguished service career began at the admiralty that he was better at running a marathon than—but interview board in Gosport. I thought that “Up something then he was very consensual, so I won’t. I pay tribute to or other creek without a paddle” was from Falstaff, but his time for the marathon. As he knows, I set him a my excellent officials tell me that I am wrong, although target, which he beat very easily. Well done. I am still going to check it all the same. I am afraid that the hon. Member for Sheffield, The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) does Heeley (Meg Munn) will have to wait for the White excellent work with the RAF all-party group. It will Paper for a decision about moving 38 Signal Regiment astonish many to know that I got on so well with from Sheffield. I would like to have heard more discussion Bomber Command that I was made an honorary member from my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald of it, so I might just drop in for a quick chat later. My Howarth) about the Supreme Court judgment last week right hon. Friend the Minister tells me that she will on extending human rights to the battlefield. It is a certainly receive a reply to her specific question before subject on which Members from both sides of the the summer recess. House may wish to comment. I know that we will be looking carefully at that judgment, and that we have My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Portsmouth some concerns. North (Penny Mordaunt) talked about the service complaints commissioner. I am afraid that she will have I was sorry to hear about the constituent of the hon. to discuss that further with my right hon. Friend, but I Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland understand that we are looking at the matter closely. (Tom Blenkinsop). I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, the I was glad to hear the support of the hon. Member right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) for the (Mr Francois) wrote to him only yesterday and we do armed forces. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member not believe that this is a general problem. Leaving aside for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) and I have not the armed forces and reservists, I thought that the dissimilar backgrounds. No Defence Minister wishes to Opposition had accepted that we need to make serious see cuts to the armed forces or defence spending, but I savings, as we have been doing over the past three years, pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for all the reasons that he understands. On this day the for coherently explaining the continued need to maintain newspapers have published the letter from the right defence spending throughout the current review. I think hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) that he has done a pretty good job, and the story has which says that there is no money. been in the newspapers. On my hon. and gallant Friend’s point about reservists, he will also have to wait for the White Paper. Tom Blenkinsop: The Government’s policy clearly states that armed forces personnel families are supposed I pay tribute to the hon. and gallant Member for to be exempt but, after three months, it is clear that they Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his service in the Ulster are not and that councils throughout the country are Defence Regiment during difficult times in the Province. interpreting the policy in such a way that only reservists He stood up for Northern Ireland, and he was absolutely count, not permanent members of the armed forces. right that Northern Ireland makes a great contribution— indeed, a disproportionate contribution—to our armed Mr Robathan: As I said, my right hon. Friend the forces. Minister has written to the hon. Gentleman. They I share the respect of my hon. Friend the Member for should have further discussions, because my right hon. Nuneaton (Mr Jones) for service charities, which do Friend knows the details, but I fear that I do not. fantastic work. We will ensure that someone gets up to My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob see them, but that might be my right hon. Friend the Russell) made a wide-ranging speech in which he stood Minister of State. My advice to my hon. Friend is that a up for Colly, as soldiers used to call Colchester, although good start would be to set up a military wives’ choir, I think that they were referring particularly to the and I am sure that military husbands and the non-military military corrective training centre. He also talked about could be involved. bands. From the Government’s point of view, bands are The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) an integral part of the Army, and indeed of the Royal was rather cut off in full flow, but I agree with him Marines and the Royal Air Force. Anyone who has ever about the ARRC. I shall shortly be visiting it and its marched to a band knows how stirring that is. I remember commander, James Bucknall, who is also colonel of the Academy Sergeant Major Huggins at the Royal Military Coldstream Guards, as I am sure that that hon. Members Academy Sandhurst saying, “If the hairs on the back of know. On hearing about Charles Irving, I feared that your neck don’t prickle when you hear a military band, the lieutenant-general whom he speared with a bayonet you are in the wrong business.” On the Ministry of was British, rather than German. The hon. Member for 273 25 JUNE 2013 274

[Mr Robathan] Cross-border Health Care (England and Wales) North Durham and I have sparred across the Dispatch Box for more than three years, but his speech was the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House most consensual that I have ever heard him make. do now adjourn.—(Mr Evennett.) I am extremely proud of our armed forces, as I know that we all are, but I am also proud of the work that the 7pm Government have done to help to improve the support Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) that we give them. In a consensual manner, let me say (Con): I start by thanking Mr Speaker for kindly granting that we have built somewhat on work that was done this debate on a topic of great importance to many of previously. We owe our armed forces our very best my constituents and to many others living in English efforts, because that is what they give us day in, day out, counties on the border with Wales. wherever they are stationed and whatever the conditions. I am grateful to two of my colleagues, my hon. As my right hon. Friend the Minister said in his opening Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) speech, the first duty of Government is the defence of and the Minister for Immigration, my hon. Friend the the realm, and we must never forget, and we must thank Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who have our armed forces for, the service that they provide in both worked with enormous diligence on behalf of fulfilling that duty on behalf of everyone in the House constituents of theirs who have been similarly affected. and the country. I pay tribute to my constituent the indefatigable Patti Question put and agreed to. Fender for bringing this issue to my attention, and to Resolved, Action4Our Care, the action group which has pressed That this House celebrates and commemorates the contribution the matter so hard in Gloucestershire. of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and their families, in particular The basic problem can be simply stated. There are more those currently serving overseas; recognises the important introduction than 20,000 NHS patients who are resident in England, of Armed Forces Day in 2006 and urges the nation to come yet registered with a Welsh general practitioner. Of these, together and champion the Services’ achievements throughout some 3,500 are resident in my county of Herefordshire. the decades; pays tribute to the UK’s Forces, their families and the charities who do so much to support them; recognises the Many of these people, like my constituents in the village enormous contribution of the staff who support the UK’s Forces of Welsh Newton—a Welsh name, but an English village— from within Government and the workforces in industry who have no choice but to register with a Welsh GP because supply them with world-class equipment; urges all those in public no English practice covers their location. life to seek additional ways to support the Armed Forces Covenant; These people live in England, but they are being urges the Government, local authorities, business and charities to deliver the best possible post-service support; and considers the denied access to hospital services in England. That is principles of the Armed Forces Covenant essential to uphold, grossly unfair, especially as for many, if not all, of them through public policy, the provision of welfare and frontline Hereford hospital is the closest and the best place to be support. treated. The situation also has the damaging knock-on effect of depriving Hereford hospital of revenue from Business without Debate patients who are being treated in Wales. The result is a double whammy: the patients cannot receive the health care that they want and need, and Hereford hospital, DELEGATED LEGISLATION already undermined by the deeply iniquitous NHS funding Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing formula, must suffer an unexpected additional financial Order No. 118(6)), burden. This burden is already becoming evident. Outpatient treatments for patients living in England but EXTRADITION registered with a Welsh GP fell by 10% to 11% in That the draft Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations) March, April and May this year compared with the Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 25 April, in the same period in 2012, and the hospital expects them to last Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Mr Evennett.) fall further in the months to come. Question agreed to. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Is my hon. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Friend aware of the situation in Chester, where the Order No. 118(6)), Countess of Chester hospital serves large numbers of people who live in north Wales? One third of the people INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING presenting at accident and emergency at the Countess That the draft Highways and Railway (Nationally Significant of Chester live in north Wales. There is no funding Infrastructure Project) Order 2013, which was laid before this available for them so people in Cheshire are losing out. House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Evennett.) Does my hon. Friend think that is fair? Question agreed to. Jesse Norman: It is interesting to have the parallel case, and I thank my hon. Friend for bringing it to the attention of the House. Let us look at the issues in more detail. The relevant NHS regulations state that legal responsibility for these patients remains with the relevant clinical commissioning groups in England, but that local health boards in Wales take day-to-day responsibility for their care. The English and Welsh NHS take their guidance from the protocol 275 Cross-border Health Care 25 JUNE 2013 Cross-border Health Care 276 (England and Wales) (England and Wales) for cross-border health care services, the latest version the debate. Does he agree that when one has a national of which was agreed by Welsh and English Ministers in border next to one’s county, it should be treated like a April this year. However, it appears that the protocol coastline, because it is not the Minister’s responsibility does not give full effect to the law. Specifically, point to control the health service in Wales? But if we do not 14 of the current protocol implies that patients from have proper funding we will suffer as a result of not England who are treated in Wales are to be seen and only our rurality but our sparsity, and once again treated within the maximum waiting time targets of the people living in the marches will be at a disadvantage. NHS in Wales, which are of course rather different We have the Barnett formula, but should we not have from those of the NHS in England. Why does this something similar for people on the Welsh border? matter? It matters for three particular reasons. First, as we have seen, these South Herefordshire Jesse Norman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and patients struggle to get referred to the hospital of their neighbour for that kind intervention. I share his view choice. The Welsh Assembly Government Minister for that the situation needs to be addressed, and it needs to Health and Social Services has openly stated that choice be addressed in the spirit of amity and co-operation is not the basis of the health system in Wales. between the two sides. In 2009-10 I commissioned an independent study of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman the funding of public services in Herefordshire relative will be well aware of the land border between the to other suitable comparators across the country. I was Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great only a parliamentary candidate at the time and such a Britain and Northern Ireland. There is co-operation, study had never before been undertaken, but it seemed although it is not full blooded, between the health obvious to me that Herefordshire suffered from a serious service in Northern Ireland and the health service in the shortfall in public funding and I was determined to get Republic. Perhaps the Minister should look at that to to the bottom of the matter. The results were astounding— see how it can work for the situation on the border even frightening. The study found that Herefordshire between England and Wales. had been underfunded by no less than £175 million over the previous five years across all public services. In Jesse Norman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman health care, the underfunding was £44 million, or roughly for that intervention. There is co-operation at the moment £9 million a year. It is no coincidence, I suggest, that between England and Wales, but I think that it would Hereford hospital is currently running a deficit of almost absolutely benefit from further examination of the situation exactly that amount. It is that deficit that is being he describes between Northern Ireland and Eire. worsened by the denial of choice to cross-border patients in my constituency and elsewhere. The fact that the Welsh Assembly Government Minister for Health and Social Services does not believe that Why did that funding shortfall occur? The reason is choice is the basis of the health system in Wales means that the NHS funding formula is systematically skewed that my constituents do not have the choice of health care, against areas that are highly rural and have a large hospitals or consultants that is their proper legal right. population of older people, and systematically favours urban areas with younger populations. The formula Secondly, the Welsh NHS’s performance in meeting does not recognise the relatively high cost of delivering its own waiting time targets continues to deteriorate. In services in sparsely populated areas, as my hon. Friend England the waiting time target is 18 weeks, but in the Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) Wales it is 26 weeks, and that is regularly missed. Some indicated, and it does not adequately recognise the patients are not even treated within 36 weeks. For special costs imposed by caring for older people— example, some 4% of patients are not treated within particularly the over-85s, the very oldest in our society. 36 weeks at Cardiff and Vale hospital, according to Research by Professor Sheena Asthana at the university recent Welsh Government statistics for April this year. of Plymouth indicates that the areas of greatest health Thirdly, the current set-up is giving rise to serious care need are those with the highest proportion of clinical concerns. Earlier this year, in evidence to the Silk over-75s. However, the current funding formula is focused commission on devolution in Wales, the Royal College on deprivation rather than on need for health care. That of Surgeons, the British Medical Association and the means that less funding is available to treat older people Royal College of Nursing made the following submission: with chronic diseases. “The Panel... acknowledged that increasing policy divergence Nationally, 17% of people are aged 65 or over. In between health services in Wales and England was a challenge, Herefordshire, the figure is already 22% and pensioners especially in regards to cross-border services. The Panel added that there was a need to strengthen commissioning arrangements will make up a third of the population by 2030. In to improve current delays for processing individual cases... It was 2010-11, Herefordshire had the highest proportion of also agreed that it made sense for some specialist facilities to be over-75s in the west midlands, and the most patients per shared by both England and Wales; and to work together to 100,000 on the cancer register. It also had the lowest deliver economies of scale and efficiency savings, including cross cancer spend per cancer patient per year—a little over border sharing of procurement and use of high-tech equipment.” £5,000—and was in the lower half of the per capita However, as I have mentioned, that ban on hospital allocations. access for those patients is not merely grossly unfair to By contrast, the Heart of Birmingham PCT had the them but places further financial pressure on Hereford lowest proportion of over-75s in the region, and the hospital. fewest patients per 100,000 on the cancer register. However, the spend per cancer patient per year there Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): My hon. was not £5,000 but more than £10,000—nearly double Friend and neighbour is making an important and that in Herefordshire. Thus the effect of the funding powerful speech and should be congratulated on securing formula is that Heart of Birmingham has twice as much 277 Cross-border Health Care 25 JUNE 2013 Cross-border Health Care 278 (England and Wales) (England and Wales) [Jesse Norman] look at this issue they will take up the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and funding per cancer patient as Herefordshire, for a much look at the valuable lessons that have been learned in lower incidence of cancer. That is not merely unfair; it is Northern Ireland about the useful co-operation across a monstrous injustice. a land frontier with the Republic of Ireland and a key, I conclude by asking the Minister three questions. integral part of the United Kingdom—Northern Ireland? First, will her Department amend the cross-border protocol and reintroduce patient choice for English residents Anna Soubry: I am grateful for that intervention and registered with GPs in Wales? Secondly, will she for the wise words of the hon. Member for Strangford acknowledge the strain that the protocol places on (Jim Shannon), who, as ever, brings a great depth of hospitals such as Hereford hospital? Thirdly, will she experience to these matters. Yes, we will certainly take press her Department to make the case to NHS England that on board. for a fairer funding settlement, which will give older All this came about because of a meeting between me people—not merely in Herefordshire, but up and down and my officials, the Welsh Secretary and my hon. Friend the land—the funding for cancer and for other health the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). As a care that they so richly deserve? result of that meeting, I have asked NHS England to work locally with GP practices in the border counties to 7.11 pm review their practice boundaries with the aim of providing additional choice of GPs to those who do not currently The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health have it. I am keen that all English patients are able (Anna Soubry): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member to access an English GP if they wish or that they can for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) register with a Welsh GP if that is their choice and they on securing this debate. He has raised a number of are aware of the impact of that decision. I have also asked important topics—notably, the difficulties of people NHS England to review the protocol as it currently stands. resident in England who are registered with a local GP whose service is deemed to be in Wales, even though the I have asked the Welsh Government to review their surgery may be in England. I am fully aware of my hon. policy on out-of-area treatments to consider an exception Friend’s keen interest in local health matters affecting for English residents—specifically, that GPs operating his constituents and his tireless work to support Hereford from branch surgeries in England should be exempt hospital. The whole House will agree that we would all from the requirement to seek prior approval for English expect good quality patient care, regardless of which resident patients to be referred to hospitals in England. part of the country we live in. These are all matters of concern not only to constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South As my hon. Friend knows, I am very sympathetic to Herefordshire but to others. We have heard about that the concerns he has raised about English residents who from my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester are unable to access English hospital care because they (Stephen Mosley) and my hon. Friend the Member for are technically registered with a Welsh GP practice—even North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin), and of course I know when, as I said, for a small number of patients, that GP of the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for surgery is physically situated in England. Forest of Dean. I am told by my officials that the NHS services that I am informed that since the meeting with the Welsh any patient can access, and their NHS rights, are determined Secretary and my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of by their GP’s country of registration. As we have heard, Dean, NHS England has had several further meetings that is formulated through protocol between NHS England with colleagues in the Welsh Government and local and the Welsh Assembly; it means that, legally, a person health boards based in Wales to discuss these concerns has to be registered with an English GP practice to so that they can be addressed. There have been constructive access English NHS services. discussions with Aneurin Bevan local health board, I am very concerned that despite an English border which has confirmed that it will undertake a review of patient’s right to register with a GP practice on either the application of its policy on out-of-area treatment. I side of the border, that is not always possible in practice. understand from NHS England that work will continue I recognise that, in rural communities, patients often do on this review over the next few months, and I will of not feel a choice is available, given that the most accessible course keep everybody fully informed and up to date on practice is a Welsh one. I also recognise that many people any progress. are registered with a local GP in England but the main practice is over the border in Wales. Those people may Bill Wiggin: Will my hon. Friend give way? not want to change their GP practice. Why indeed should they? We could understand why they might, Anna Soubry: Of course, but quickly. because in Wales people unfortunately do not get some of the excellent access to services that we enjoy in Bill Wiggin: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I England. I am very concerned about this. I am told by am really heartened by the positive things she has said, NHS England that it has asked its legal advisers to and I congratulate her on the work she has done. Will review their earlier advice on the protocol signed between she also look at the impact of cross-border patient numbers it and the Welsh Government with reference to the on hospitals, which also badly affects us in Herefordshire? specific concerns that Ministers—that is, me—and the Welsh Secretary have raised. Anna Soubry: Indeed. I will come to the effect on Hereford hospital, but I am more than happy to write Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): It is very kind of to my hon. Friend about his specific point. The usual the Minister to take an intervention at this stage. Will rules apply: if there are questions that I have not answered she kindly confirm that when she invites her officials to I will of course write to any hon. Member. 279 Cross-border Health Care 25 JUNE 2013 Cross-border Health Care 280 (England and Wales) (England and Wales) We have asked the Welsh Government to request that The funding formula has been raised yet again. The other local health boards along the border in Wales argument advanced by many Members on both sides of should similarly review the application of their own the House is that the formula does not take account of policies for out-of-area treatment affecting patients in the relatively high cost of delivering services in rural areas the same circumstances. In many of those areas patient or reflect the fact that many rural areas such as numbers are much smaller, but that does not matter; Herefordshire have relatively older populations. I have these are important issues for these individuals. had a number of conversations with hon. Members who In the light of the further legal advice that NHS make exactly the same complaint as my hon. Friend. England is seeking, I am advised that it will review the I am reliably informed—this point is important—that protocol with the Welsh Government in view of my allocations to individual clinical commissioning groups, concerns and those of other hon. Members, the updated which are made up of the GPs and other clinicians who legal advice, the outcome of the local health boards’ now commission services locally, and the formula that reviews of the application of their policies on out-of-area is used to decide what those allocations should be, are treatment, and feedback that we have received from the responsibility of NHS England. I am not seeking to local NHS bodies on the operation of the protocol. The pass the buck, but it does bear that responsibility. In review will be undertaken in the autumn following making those allocations, NHS England relies on advice completion of the reviews by the local health boards. from the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation. My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South ACRA provides advice on the share of available resources Herefordshire is concerned that the policy of the Welsh provided to each CCG to support equal access for equal Government that those who are registered with a Welsh need, as specified in the mandate given by the Secretary GP must use Welsh NHS services will have a direct of State to NHS England. impact on the viability of Hereford hospital. I share his Therefore, NHS England does not set income for concern, but I understand that a number of other CCGs on an equal cost-per-head basis across the country. factors affect the viability of the hospital and the Wye Instead, allocations follow an assessment of the expected Valley NHS Trust. need for health services in an area, and funds are I was a bit concerned when I read the next part of my distributed in line with that, meaning that areas with a brief, because it has been worded in an interesting way high health need should receive more money per head. by my very able officials. It states that those factors The calculation is based on the age of the populations, include relative morbidity and unavoidable variation in cost. The objective is to ensure a consistent supply of health “the drop in the numbers of young people locally leading to a lack of activity in maternity services”. services across the country. The greater the health need, the more money is received because the more health I am not sure what “lack of activity” young people have services are needed. been guilty of. I think that what is meant is that there are not as many young people in the area, because there I know that some hon. Members just do not accept is undoubtedly a higher proportion of retired elderly that that is the reality with the allocations to their people in the population. It is obvious that if there are CCGs and, in effect, to their constituencies. NHS England fewer young people, people are less likely to be having plans to review the funding formula for 2014-15 and the babies and are therefore less likely to use maternity following years better to reflect the needs of local services. I am sure that activity remains at a high level. communities and enable the best outcomes for local people. Perhaps there is hope in that. Obviously, I must As my hon. Friend is aware, Wye Valley NHS Trust say quickly that I cannot make any promises. published a strategic outline case in March this year, setting out the options for its future form to create a If anybody would like to intervene, we do have the clinically sustainable model for local people. I have been time. Hon. Members often want to make a point, but do advised by the NHS Trust Development Authority that not feel that they can make a speech. it has been working with the trust to develop a full business case, which it expects to receive for consideration Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I by the end of this month. Again, I make it very clear thank the Minister for her kindness and I am sorry that that I am more than happy to revisit this issue with my I was not here at the start of the contribution from the hon. Friend and others following the outcome of that hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire process. (Jesse Norman). Hereford hospital is key in delivering medical services to people in my constituency in Wales. Jesse Norman: Wye Valley NHS Trust has informed If it had not been for the co-operation of my predecessor, me that the policy has cost it between £1 million and Richard Livsey, the rebuilding of Hereford hospital £2 million so far. Given that it is running a deficit of might not have taken place, because it needs patients £8 million to £10 million, that is a significant sum. The from the east of Wales too. work that is being done pre-supposes the current funding formula. In a way, it therefore pre-supposes the point at Anna Soubry: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for question, which is whether the formula is fair. As I have that intervention. My officials will listen to the debate submitted, it clearly is not. and read it in Hansard. All the points that have been made about Hereford hospital—equally important points Anna Soubry: I do not doubt for one moment the veracity could be raised by others about the effect on other of what my hon. Friend has told me about what he, in hospitals—must be considered, because they are important. turn, has been told. That is a substantial amount of It would not be right or fair if hospitals felt that they money and it would go a long way to explaining part of were suffering as a result of a system that is basically the deficit. These are terribly important matters. not fair through no fault of their own. 281 Cross-border Health Care 25 JUNE 2013 Cross-border Health Care 282 (England and Wales) (England and Wales) Jesse Norman: We have a little time, so I am very for Forest of Dean, with whom I had a long meeting. grateful to the Minister for giving way again. Will she As a result, NHS England is doing what we had hoped ask her officials to look more closely at the functioning it would. I am encouraged by the dialogue that has been of ACRA? The formula under which we are labouring taking place between NHS England, the Welsh Government was set up in 2002. There is a clear case to be made that, and local health boards in Wales, and I hope to see further contrary to its desire, it is not delivering funding to the rapid progress. We must not let anybody drag their heels. areas of greatest need, but to areas defined by a deprivation I look forward to being able to update my hon. Friend formula. The truth is that morbidity and age go together, the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire, and not deprivation and morbidity. others who represent border communities, in the autumn. I undertake to do that once NHS England has finished Anna Soubry: I might not share my hon. Friend’s its review. I once again congratulate my hon. Friend on final remarks, but we know that NHS England, which is securing the debate on this important issue. While it in charge of distributing funds to CCGs, is considering might not affect a huge number of people, it is a very the formula. It will no doubt bear in mind the argument important issue for them and they feel that there is an made by him and others who believe that ACRA’s injustice. It behoves all of us to ensure that we eradicate formulation is not delivering in the fair way that we all any injustice. agree was intended. Question put and agreed to. In conclusion, I am pleased that NHS England has responded to my concerns, and the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire 7.28 pm and others, most notably my hon. Friend the Member House adjourned. 1WH 25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 2WH

outstanding. Does she share my puzzlement that some Westminster Hall of the best staff in the call centre, whom I have sat next to, were bewildered by the systems they were asked to deal with? The problem is not the front-line staff at all, Tuesday 25 June 2013 who are superb, but is basically one of leadership.

Priti Patel: Of course, my hon. Friend hits the nail on [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] the head. This is about management and lack of leadership and direction from the trust. East of England Ambulance Service I also pay tribute to the volunteer community first Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting responders who support the trust. I think that all hon. be now adjourned.—(Anna Soubry.) Members will have met first responders in their constituencies. Let us be clear that those individuals sacrifice their own time to attend to ill and injured 9.30 am people quickly and remain with them until paramedics Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Mr. Howarth, it is a arrive. I have been briefed by the co-ordinator of first pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning. responders in my constituency and am more than impressed I thank Mr Speaker for granting me this debate and I by the actions they take to save the lives of patients in thank all colleagues from across the region who are emergency situations, dealing with a wide range of present today for their support in securing this debate conditions, including heart attacks, allergic reactions and for pursuing this issue so assiduously. and unconsciousness. This month, the trust announced that 30 more of these volunteers had completed their We in the east of England are fortunate that two two-day training course. We should celebrate that of our Members of Parliament are Ministers—the achievement and praise those volunteers for their dedication Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend to helping the ambulance service and, of course, all our the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich constituents. Those front-line members put the needs of (Dr Poulter), and the Minister of State, Department of patients first. Health, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb)—and both are well aware of this issue With so much devotion and commitment from the and have taken a great deal of interest in it. I put on the front-line staff and volunteers, of course it is more than record my thanks in particular to my noble Friend Lord disappointing that they have been so badly let down by Howe, who has not only taken a strong interest in this the trust’s board and management. Staff and volunteers subject, but helped facilitate many meetings with various deserve more support and strategic leadership from the bodies and the ambulance trust, and others, to explore trust. It is because the trust’s board has failed to demonstrate this issue further. I know that this Minister will be well in the boardroom the high level of expertise, skill and briefed on this matter and will be aware of the many devotion required that is displayed on the front line that and considerable concerns of colleagues in the region the trust has been brought into such a dreadful state. about the performance of the East of England Ambulance The biggest danger to patients, which many hon. Service NHS Trust. She has shown strong interest in the Members have experienced, is delays getting ambulances health problems of my constituents and they will welcome to them. The Minister will know that this trust has her active involvement in helping to get this trust turned failed lamentably to meet the A8 and A19 targets. around. Patients with life-threatening conditions are being This is a timely debate, following on from the made to wait longer than they should for paramedics to scandalous revelations about the cover-up at the Care arrive. Quality Commission and the lack of responsibility and accountability from NHS directors. This trust has also Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I agree with experienced serious issues with accountability and what my hon. Friend says about ambulance delays, but mismanagement. It is suffering from the rotten culture does she agree that this is a particularly severe problem that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk in more rural areas, such as the Dengie peninsula, and North Ipswich recently mentioned. which I represent, where one survey of a patient group Before I run through many of the problems with the of a medical practice, the William Fisher medical centre, trust encountered by my constituents and I, and the showed that patients had to wait for more than 40 challenges, including delays, response times, damning minutes, and in some cases more than a hour, before the reports from the CQC and from Dr Anthony Marsh, I ambulance arrived? should like to begin on a positive note and pay tribute to the outstanding work undertaken by the front-line Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is right. Many hon. staff. Despite many problems with the trust and its Members have experienced horrific delays, particularly board, the front-line staff have earned admiration and a across our rural constituencies. I know of delays in great deal of respect from all our constituents. They excess of two hours. That is unacceptable. Lives are put work in difficult conditions, all made worse by the at risk. failure of the trust’s board, but they continue to save lives daily and, of course, they help patients get better. Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on calling this important Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I support debate on an unacceptable level of service. Further to what my hon. Friend says about front-line staff; I have the previous intervention on rural areas, can we also had personal experience of that in my own family in agree that this is not just about what are called emergency Norfolk. The paramedics that we encountered were services, but also about non-emergencies? Many people 3WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 4WH

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly] my constituent had suffered a stroke, the trust neglected her. If her family had not taken the risk of transporting in my constituency, particularly elderly people, are kept her to hospital, she may never have got there. waiting for up to eight hours, often in significant pain, The following month, my constituent fell in her care before the ambulance gets to them. home and banged her head, resulting in a lump larger than a chicken egg on her temple. The ambulance was called at 9.38 pm, but it did not arrive until almost two Priti Patel: My hon. Friend makes the point clearly hours later, at 11.25 pm, despite the fact that the care about the impact on elderly patients and the unacceptable home was barely five minutes from Colchester ambulance waiting times that his constituents, and those of other station. Once my constituent was in hospital, a CT scan hon. Members, have endured. confirmed that she was haemorrhaging on the brain, Data from the trust show that in the last quarter of and she died soon after. Had the ambulance arrived 2012-13, the A8 target for paramedic arrival to treat a sooner, my constituent would have received treatment patient in a life-threatening condition within eight minutes more promptly and might still be alive today. I raised was met 70% of the time, compared to the 75% target. the case with the trust, but it took two months to reply, The A19 target was also missed, as ambulances arrived coming up with a feeble excuse and a shallow apology. to transport patients with life-threatening conditions Other constituents have also let me know of their within 19 minutes 92% of the time, compared to the frustration about delays. Mrs Houghton, from Tolleshunt 95% target. Patients with other conditions have experienced Knights, has two young daughters with serious medical appalling delays. In each of the 10 months from April conditions that require frequent hospital care. One has 2012 to January 2013, the trust failed to meet the target a condition that can lead to sudden death syndrome; to get 62% of stroke patients to hospital within 60 minutes. the other suffers from a condition that includes In fact, in seven of those months the figures were supraventricular tachycardia, which can cause her heartbeat below 50%. to quicken, and her treatment requires a life-saving The delays in an ambulance arriving to transport injection. Last year, my constituent reported to me that patients to hospital after they have been attended to by ambulances were taking longer to arrive than they used a volunteer community first responder or paramedic in to and that rapid response vehicles were sent instead to a rapid response vehicle are particularly alarming. Figures take her daughters to hospital. As the Minister will provided by the trust to me covering Essex showed that appreciate, these incidents have caused Mrs Houghton in 2012 there were 39,921 of these back-up requests, but increased anxiety, particularly given that her daughters on 12,584 occasions it took more than 30 minutes for are children. They need an ambulance to attend promptly, the ambulance to arrive. In Witham alone, in 206 incidents but that is simply not happening. it took more than 30 minutes for an ambulance to In a separate case, a constituent who is a carer for a arrive, from 639 back-up requests. relative, Mrs Gladys Money, reported to me the delay Gladys experienced while waiting for an ambulance. It is scandalous that almost one third of patients Only two weeks ago, Gladys, who is 96 years old, needing to go to hospital by ambulance were left waiting, suffered a fall in her kitchen. She could not reach the causing them distress and preventing the initial paramedic telephone, so she used the emergency call line button or volunteer who attended the scene from moving on to she carries with her at all times to request assistance. An help other patients elsewhere. Four patients a week in ambulance was called, but it did not arrive for an hour Witham, 242 in Essex and many hundreds more across and a half. During that time, Gladys was in much the region have endured those waits, and the trust’s distress and could not lift herself up or even call for board sat idly and did nothing while the situation got further help. Such delays in the treatment of elderly ever worse. The failures have led to the trust becoming people are unacceptable; they are simply not right, and the worst performing ambulance trust in the country. people cannot be treated in this way. The statistics are terrible and the delays can have serious consequences for the lives of patients affected. Another constituent reported to me his outrage when, in November, an ambulance failed to arrive after his The Minister will have seen numerous news reports 20-month-old grandson started hyperventilating and from local, regional and national newspapers highlighting developed a high temperature. After two hours’ waiting devastating cases across the region. Colleagues from and three telephone calls, he was assured an ambulance across the region will, like me, have seen cases all over would arrive shortly, but that did not happen. After their local newspapers and will have had numerous being told that ambulance crews were too busy to constituents writing to them about their own experiences. attend, he resorted to taking his grandson to accident There have been some dreadful incidents affecting my and emergency himself. There are so many other cases I constituents who have faced not only unacceptable delays, could mention, and I have no doubt that other hon. but a devastating impact of the consequence of those Members have plenty of other examples they wish to delays. One constituent from Tiptree suffered lengthy raise. delays on not just one but two occasions—in August Despite the fact that the trust received complaints and September—before passing away.On the first occasion, from Members of Parliament, members of the public she suffered a mini-stroke, and the emergency doctor and its own staff, nothing was done to address the who attended her home called for an ambulance that problem seriously. What made the trust’s lack of attention morning, but it took more than three hours for a to the problems all the more shocking was the fact that, paramedic to arrive. The paramedic then called for in May 2012, the CQC reported concerns with response a back-up ambulance, which did not come. After waiting times. It clearly stated that four hours, members of my constituent’s family placed “the Trust had not met some of its key performance standards in her in one of their cars to take her to hospital. Although relation to response times” 5WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 6WH and needed Priti Patel: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his “to seek ways of addressing the challenges it faces in responding intervention. Interestingly, funding was not an issue in quickly in very rural areas and on improving turn around times at this case; the trust is very well funded, and I will come the hospitals in its region so that people receive care in a timely to that. This is about professionalism and training. and effective manner.” With the board and the trust, we have seen a complete Senior managers, directors and non-executive directors failure of not only leadership, but skills; there is a should have seen the warning signs. They should have question about the skills base of the board and the been working with hospitals in the region to improve non-executive directors, and it is clear that they have handover times. They should have reassessed changes to failed in their duties and responsibilities. staffing rotas and brought in new front-line staff to fill My hon. Friend the Minister will know from the Mid the 200 empty posts. They should have re-examined Staffordshire inquiry and from events involving the how they prioritise calls. They should have altered the CQC, Cumbria and other trusts the consequences of allocation of resources to put more ambulances on the the rotten culture of management failures, cover-ups road. Finally, they should have got a grip on the trust’s and inept strategic leadership in the NHS, which the growing deficit. Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend Many things should have been questioned and required the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, serious attention. However, the trust acted only this touched on. That culture is simply not acceptable, and it year, following another CQC inspection in February, is about time we took the lid off many NHS trusts and the report of which was published in March. That started to ask questions about the failure we have seen inspection came about only as a result of the persistence across the country. of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal The East of England Ambulance Service NHS Trust (Dr Coffey)and other Members of Parliament in the is another trust we can add to the list of those where region, who pressed for an investigation into the trust. scandal and incompetence have put lives at risk. As I The report demanded action to improve the said, this is not a resourcing issue, because the trust is “Care and welfare of people who use services”. funded above the national average. This is a problem It concluded that since the with senior management, directors and non-executive directors. Since the publication of the CQC report, a “last inspection the trust’s performance in relation to its ambulance response times had deteriorated and people could not be assured new interim chair, Dr Geoff Harris, has been brought they would receive care in a timely and effective manner.” into the trust. A governance review and additional support are being provided by Dr Anthony Marsh, the Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): I congratulate chief executive of the country’s best-performing ambulance my hon. Friend on initiating the debate. I also congratulate trust, in the west midlands. Those are welcome steps. Of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal course, it was Dr Marsh’s review of governance that (Dr Coffey)—La Pasionaria of Southwold, as she is her highlighted the extent of the scandal and failure at the known in her constituency—on her role. Last October, heart of the trust. my wife had a serious accident, and there were considerable delays in treating her. We are all aware of such things, Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate but does my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti the hon. Lady on the debate, and on the work that she Patel) agree that there is a systemic culture of failure and colleagues have done over many months. She is and buck-passing not only on this issue, but, sadly, in right to say that the issue is not money. I have heard it wider areas of the NHS and the public sector? What suggested that the problem is to do with rural ambulance worries me—my hon. Friend might come on to this—is services, but I assure her that constituents of mine with that if a new board is appointed, it might well consist of awful problems have had to wait an hour and a half for recycled individuals from the quangocracy who may ambulances that were simply not available. The problem have failed in other parts of the country. is urban as well as rural, and I know that she realises that. The solution must affect all of us. Priti Patel: My hon. Friend’s assessment of the culture in the NHS is absolutely correct. Let us not forget that Priti Patel: Absolutely. My hon. Friend is right. The the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend key is that there is a failed service, and it requires the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, immediate turnaround, which must have one clear focus: alluded to the rotten culture in the NHS. I will come to putting patients first, rather than the interests of board the fact that cultural change is required and that we and trust members. The issue is about patients. must stop this revolving door and this recycling of I am encouraged by my initial contact with Dr Harris people in the NHS. and Dr Marsh. It is incumbent on us all to support them, to ensure that they get the trust back on its feet. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the House. Although Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): I the debate is specifically about the East of England congratulate my hon. Friend on the lead she is giving Ambulance Service NHS Trust, the same rationale applies and on bringing the facts to light, although I worry that across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great in rehearsing some of the problems we create greater Britain and Northern Ireland. The response by paramedics worry among our constituents; but we must get to the relies on data and modern technology, so it is important bottom of the problem. She has mentioned Dr Anthony that funding restrictions do not limit what they can do. Marsh, and some of us recall that in the days of the Does the hon. Lady feel that it is essential that funding Essex ambulance service there were nothing like the is always available so that they can do the work they difficulties that there are today. It is clear from the fact need to? Does she also feel that training is important? that other ambulance trusts are performing better—some 7WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 8WH

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] a number of outcomes relating to patient care and welfare were not being achieved, the review states at to a very high standard—that there should be some page 13: pressure. There is a model of how things should be “The Board should be taking leadership decisions and actions done, and pressure should be brought to bear so that we on these Outcomes and holding others to account,” can get the East of England Ambulance Service NHS but of course there has been collective failure and Trust sorted out. “this doesn’t appear to be happening.” On page 14 the review refers to the current trust board Priti Patel: My right hon. Friend is right. The issue is and senior management team appearing to have developed the turnaround of the trust and a key thing is to learn “a sense of ‘helplessness’” and states that from successful ambulance trusts. That means looking at skills and capabilities as well as at times, both in “the Board have not been taking both the responsibility collectively urban centres and rural parts of constituencies. The as well as they could or should have and that Board members have not been held to account”. east of England is a big region, and we must consider how resources can be correctly allocated to ensure that On page 18 the report highlights patients are not left waiting as they have been in the “a lack of confidence and trust that the Board has the expertise, past. experience or gravitas to respond to the substantial challenges facing the organisation.” Most of the executive directors at the trust have moved on, and the former chair, Maria Ball, resigned Page 22 contains the conclusion that recently after the CQC report earlier this year. However, “the overall Governance arrangements cannot have been adequate it is deeply alarming and thoroughly disgraceful that for the Trust to get into this much difficulty.” five non-executive directors who have presided over the The non-executive directors’ fingerprints are, to be mismanagement of the trust still sit on the board. They frank, all over the crisis. The trust is experiencing major are Paul Remington, Phil Barlow, Margaret Stockham, failures, and every day that the individuals remain on Anne Osborn and Caroline Bailes. They all seem to the board they are being financially rewarded for blatant refuse to take any responsibility for the failure that they failure. Their poor leadership and inability to acknowledge have presided over, and they continue to receive funds and deal with the challenges facing the trust have led to from the taxpayer to continue in their role. By choosing patients’ lives being put at substantial risk. The trust’s to remain in post they are putting their own interests staff survey results have demonstrated the lowest morale above those of the public, patients and front-line staff. in the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal and Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): I congratulate I wrote to Paul Remington while he was acting chair, to my hon. Friend on bringing the issue up for discussion. ask him and his fellow non-executive directors to explain There has been a series of appalling incidents in my part their actions and what they had done about improving of Essex as well, in Tendring. Are not all the failures the trust. We wanted to give them a fair and proper further evidence that the ambulance trust is run for the chance to explain themselves in the aftermath of the convenience of the senior management on the payroll, CQC’s report earlier in the year. We received a substantive and not that of the taxpayer who pays taxes to be reply from Mr Remington two months later, on the eve provided with an ambulance? Surely we need proper of the publication of the Government’s review, and it accountability, which means examining the regional was light on information and did not acknowledge the structure, which is too cumbersome, and perhaps adopting mess that the trust was in. It was thoroughly unconvincing. a system of local accountability, putting it at county In view of those poor responses I hope that the Minister level as it once was. We should also make sure that the will appreciate that the presence of those non-executive service is not stuffed full of quangocrats, and that the directors on the board is undermining public and staff people who are there to speak for the taxpayer are confidence in the trust. It is scandalous that they have accountable to the taxpayer, rather than having CVs full not already been dismissed, and shocking that, despite of parasiting off the taxpayer. the publication of the Marsh review, board members whose terms are due to expire this year are to be reappointed for the foreseeable future. The report of the Priti Patel: My hon. Friend makes some pertinent chair and chief executive for tomorrow’s board meeting and valid points. Transparency and accountability are states that, during the recruitment process for the new key things. I have touched on the issue of the revolving non-executive directors, door in the NHS, but cronyism is another issue. We must stop the same people being placed on and recycled “the TDA has agreed to extend Mr Remington’s period of service around various boards in the NHS. NHS board members on an interim basis.” should put patients first, but, as the governance review That is utterly unacceptable. Why should Mr Remington by Dr Marsh concluded, and other non-executive directors be allowed to continue on their taxpayer-funded ride, when they have failed so “there is a lack of focus and grip from the Board which has contributed towards the deterioration of performance across the miserably to fulfil their responsibilities? What will happen Trust.” to the other non-executive directors, whose terms do not end this year? How much longer will they be permitted The question, as we have already heard, is whose interests to remain in post? They refuse to do the right thing and the board is serving. It should be putting patients first. step down, so I urge the Minister to recommend to the The Minister will know that the review is full of many Secretary of State and the NHS Trust Development other statements about the board, each of which is a Authority that they should use their powers to remove damning indictment of each non-executive director and them with immediate effect, before the board meets in of the board. As to the quality risk profile showing that Bedford tomorrow. 9WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 10WH

In addition to the board’s inability to lead the trust, job, despite poor leadership; they have not had the its secretive and unaccountable handling of criticism by backing that they deserve. I also join her in paying Members of Parliament is also disturbing. tribute to the Minister’s ministerial colleague, Earl Howe, who has been very attentive to our concerns throughout. Mr Keith Simpson: I have a question for my hon. Dr Marsh’s report is well researched and impressive. Friend based on ignorance: there have been some extensions, If the report has one compelling conclusion, it is that but by whom were they made? Is that part of the the crisis in the ambulance service trust is the consequence revolving door? not of a lack of resources, but of a lack of leadership, vision and strategic direction. The comparisons that he Priti Patel: My hon. Friend asks a valid and pertinent draws with West Midlands Ambulance Service NHS question, and I give him one word: accountability. His Foundation Trust are pertinent, because it is a trust question is very good, and we need to continue to ask with a similar population base—the population is obviously who is making the decisions. more urban—that faces similar challenges, but it has In the board papers for the trust meeting tomorrow met those challenges through strong direction and leadership there is no reference to the fact that Members of Parliament throughout. That is why the West Midlands Ambulance for the region have questioned the board’s competence Service NHS Foundation Trust is at the top of the pile. and called for resignations. Our correspondence is not Unfortunately, our trust is down at the bottom. even mentioned. The papers merely state that the chair I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Broadland and the chief executive have (Mr Simpson), who said in his important intervention “met a number of MPs over the last month to discuss issues such that recently, over a number of years, a management as ambulance responses”. culture has emerged in the East of England Ambulance That is simply not good enough and fails to reflect the Service NHS Trust that basically deems second best to serious concerns that all Members of Parliament across be acceptable, and consequently action that should have the region have expressed in their questioning of the been taken has not been taken. trust on behalf of their constituents. Decisive action is If the trust was an alternative investment market-listed now necessary, because the trust, its front-line staff and company that had gone into crisis mode, the non-executive the 6 million people who live in the east of England directors would have resigned on principle; if the trust need to have skilful and competent non-executive directors was a company listed on the main stock exchange, the leading the board. I hope that when my hon. Friend the directors would have had to resign. It is staggering that Minister concludes the debate she will commit to ensuring they have somehow decided that it is okay to cling on to that resources will be made available to help the trust their jobs and stay, despite the complete lack of oversight head-hunt and bring in the right set of people as soon of corporate governance and the failure to adhere to the as possible to support both Dr Harris and Dr Marsh. combined code. As I understand it—the Minister will It is also clear to me that the problems with the board correct me if I am wrong—the non-executive directors have yet again demonstrated the wider failures within are responsible under the combined code in the same the NHS appointment process. Again and again, way as directors of public companies. The trust is incompetent and ineffective individuals have been placed obviously not a public company, but it has the same in important roles. Some of the five non-executive corporate governance rules. Notwithstanding the fact directors who should be dismissed from the trust sit or that it is a different organisation, the non-executive have sat on other NHS bodies, and it is shocking to directors have that responsibility. If they had any integrity, think that they could be recycled elsewhere in the NHS. they would offer their resignations. I would welcome an assurance that those non-executive I hope the Minister is able to tell us that she will directors, who have devastated the East of England advise the non-executive directors, with the approval of Ambulance Service NHS Trust, will be prohibited from the Secretary of State, to resign before tomorrow’s holding any further NHS job. board meeting. It is no good for the interim chairman, By the end of the debate, I am confident the Minister Dr Harris—there is a whole lot of management speak will be left in no doubt of the seriousness of the here—to review the board members’ benchmarking against situation with the ambulance trust and of the desire of leadership criteria, etc. What the hell does that mean? the public, front-line staff and all Members in the Basically, the board needs reconstituting, and it needs region to see our trust improve. I hope she can give an reconstituting very soon. Will the Minister give us some assurance that the Government will do everything possible insight into what her Department is doing to try to to help patients receive the first-class service that they bring new blood—people with real ability, not jobsworths deserve, to hold those in responsible positions to account who simply get recycled around one public board after and to resolve the mismanagement of the trust that we another—on to such boards? have all endured for far too long. Just as the trust has fallen way down to the bottom of the league, King’s Lynn and west Norfolk is unfortunately 10.2 am lagging behind the rest of East Anglia. I find that very worrying. Obviously, I accept that, in remote rural Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): I areas, there are some hamlets and remote communities congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Witham where it is physically impossible for an ambulance to (Priti Patel) on her characteristically candid and very reach a patient within the targets. We know that. There well crafted speech. She speaks for many of us in are some places in my constituency, and in the constituencies expressing those strong arguments. of many of my colleagues here today, where that is Like my hon. Friend, I pay tribute to the paramedics, absolutely impossible, even with the best will in the drivers and engineers—the people at the sharp end— world. There might be a coincidence in which, for because they have done a consistently good and professional example, an ambulance is going along a main road at a 11WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 12WH

[Mr Henry Bellingham] patients out of hours understand their medical records and are prepared to provide service is key to sorting out particular juncture, but achieving the target may well be the problem. Otherwise, given that the population in impossible, so it is even more important that the targets some parts of the country is growing, that people are are met in the towns and bigger communities, where it living longer and that many more people have challenging might be thought perfectly reasonable to expect ambulances illnesses and a multiplicity of problems, more and more to get to a call within the target time in 95%-plus of people will have out-of-hours difficulties. Unless we cases. Unfortunately, the targets are not even being met sort out the out-of-hours service, we will have more and in the towns in my constituency. more problems. I have been given permission by my constituent Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Mrs Delna Barrett to refer to her case. Her husband, Gentleman is straying somewhat from the theme. I Chris, had been suffering from Parkinson’s disease for realise that it is a related matter, but he should return some 20 years. He stopped breathing in a restaurant in the discussion to the ambulance service. Hunstanton, which is the second-largest town in my constituency, and it took the ambulance more than Mr Bellingham: I shall do so immediately, Mr Howarth, 20 minutes to arrive. Despite numerous resuscitation as that is the topic of the debate. However, I wanted to attempts, he died in hospital two days later. We do not put it into that context, because we cannot consider the know whether, if the ambulance had arrived within the ambulance service in isolation. target time, he would have had a better chance of In conclusion, there is a great deal of concern throughout surviving. The family are not criticising the paramedics the region, but we take the view that the problem can be or the staff, but the bottom line is that the ambulance solved through new leadership if management get a did not arrive within a reasonable time. grip, put common sense first and, above all, bring out We know that many difficulties are caused by the the best in the people at the sharp end, who serve our problems at A and E, to which my hon. Friend the constituents and take great pride in doing so. Those Member for Witham alluded in her excellent speech, people set high professional standards. Given the right and we know that those problems have been around for management, they will do the job to a high standard quite a long time. There certainly are problems at the and give our constituents the ambulance service that Queen Elizabeth hospital in my constituency, and there they deserve. This is a turn-around situation. I wish the are problems at the Norfolk and Norwich hospital, interim chairman and chief executive all the best in where at one stage back in March all 17 of the trust’s sorting out the problem. However, they require the ambulances were tied up waiting outside. All that is well Minister’s assistance and support, and her first step documented, and it is not entirely within the purview of must be to grip the decision of the non-executive directors. this debate, but we cannot consider the problem of the She must then work closely with the management team ambulance trust in complete isolation; we must consider to ensure that the trust is turned around for the benefit out-of-hours services and out-of-hours cover. of our constituents, who deserve better. Very often, individual family events bring home to us Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): We have four the different parts of the health service that are perhaps further speakers. If Members take about six minutes in need of improvement or are examples of best practice. each, we ought to be able to get everybody in, which is Some 20 years ago, I was staying with my mother near my aim. King’s Lynn, and at about four in the morning she banged on my door and said that she was dying. She 10.13 am was in the most appalling pain—absolute agony. My Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a mother is a war veteran who was in the Women’s Royal pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. Naval Service. She is a very tough person, and she never I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti complains about anything. She told me that she was in Patel) for leading this debate so well; her speech was complete agony and could not move. I rang the local a tour de force. I will bear in mind your time limit, doctor, who came out within 20 minutes. He said, “You Mr Howarth, although I could take the whole 90 minutes have kidney stones, and I am going to give you an to tell the sad tale. It is a pleasure to follow my injection that will put you asleep until tomorrow afternoon. hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk I will then come back and we will take stock of the (Mr Bellingham). The East of England Ambulance situation.”He gave her some more injections the following Service NHS Trust is actually responsible for out-of-hours afternoon. The stones were broken down, and she did care in Norfolk, so the left hand should be talking to not even have to go to hospital. the right hand. If my mother knocked on my door now, what would I I also thank the Minister of State, Department of do? Obviously, I would dial 111 or 999, but so risk-averse Health, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk are all those call centres that she would undoubtedly (Norman Lamb), and the Under-Secretary of State for have gone into A and E. I would not have been happy Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk with any advice from someone who did not know her and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), who started work on medical records. The key to her treatment by the local the issue. It was right for my hon. Friend the Member doctor was that he knew her medical records and for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, a doctor, to take understood that she might be prone to that problem. the lead on such matters in Suffolk, but pushing on, We must sort out the out-of-hours cover. We cannot consistent performance from colleagues across the counties go back to what we had before, when each doctor’s in the east of England has brought the issue to the fore. surgery provided out-of-hours cover, but the idea of As I suggest, this is a sad tale that started some time co-operatives and mergers between GP practices to ago. My timelines of the issue start in the middle of provide cover and ensure that the people who deal with 2011. We are driven by the experiences of our patients 13WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 14WH

—those who have suffered. Let us be honest: the vast that level since then, because the trust does not want to majority of people in our constituencies have a good share it with us and, frankly, I am not sure that I should ambulance service. Once an ambulance arrives, care is spend all my time on freedom of information requests. very good; nobody denies that. However, too often that One of the things agreed at that meeting was that excellence of service is concentrated in certain areas of contracts would change. That did not happen, which is the region in order to meet a false regional performance one issue relating to trust. In October 2012, Hayden target, and almost everything else is put aside. It does Newton resigned. Coincidentally, that was a week after not matter if only 50% of people in south Norfolk get a series of complaints, including about the case of Nora an ambulance within 90 minutes as long as the regional Dennington, whose family finally went to the press to target is met. That is all that matters to the leadership get an answer after three months. To be fair to Maria and the board of the East of England Ambulance Ball, the former chairman of the trust, she got answers Service NHS Trust. to those complaints then and there, and within a week, We have had a long series of meetings, Care Quality Hayden Newton resigned. Commission inspections and promises of change. However, Newton was still on the payroll until the Transparency has been lacking. The trust has been end of March 2013, and the chair at the time gave him a dragged kicking and screaming into showing its glowing tribute, saying that he would be greatly missed performance targets in a meaningful way—first by county, and now at clinical commissioning group level—but that “a hard act to follow” took a long time. It used to say, “You can look in the minutes of your local primary care trust to find response and that under his leadership, front-line staff were still times.” It is unacceptable for those at the very top to say, being recruited and quality of care had improved. The “Well, that’s all right; we’re hitting our regional target.” chair also said: “Thanks to Hayden’s stewardship, EEAST is now a stable, I have used the constituency of the hon. Member for sustainable and financially sound organisation”. Copeland (Mr Reed) to say that if it can happen in Cumbria and Cornwall, it can certainly happen in Norfolk I am afraid that the Marsh report blows that out of the and Suffolk. It is important that the Opposition spokesman water. does not try to drag party politics into this debate or I could go on about all the different meetings, but I talk about finances. The issue is about those at the top will not, as I am conscious of the time. What I will say is having wrong priorities and forgetting that every patient that patients’ complaints were not being answered, and matters. patients were not being treated as individuals. The I have never had to call an ambulance in the east of board should have seen it in the survey and the climb in England, or indeed at all, but I like to think that if I did, sickness rates, and the CQC should have done more I could have some confidence that it would arrive in than tick the box saying that the trust had passed staff time. In reality, however, there are not enough ambulances compliance on the basis that appraisals had been done. and not enough staff. Mr Andrew Morgan recognised There was an element of external scrutiny by the CQC, that early on when he came into office as interim chief the strategic health authority and, to some extent, Monitor, executive. As Dr Marsh pointed out in his excellent which did not approve the foundation trust status report, application, but passed the trust on the governance rating. All those different regulators, as well as the “the current leadership from the board just isn’t strong enough to leadership of the board, need to look at themselves to take them forward…there is a lack of focus and grip from the understand why they, in effect, let people down. The board which has contributed towards the deterioration of performance across the trust.” board was fixated on getting foundation trust status; it was only focused on the regional target, and it did not Many of the issues breaking open at the moment have matter that residents in Suffolk were being failed, as been deteriorating for some time. The non-executives long as the regional target was okay. have not shown leadership by asking hard questions and going beneath the surface; they have relaxed and Moving forward, my hon. Friends who have spoken considered only the top regional performance target. are absolutely right: it is imperative that the remaining non-executive directors resign their posts immediately I thank our local newspapers, the East Anglian Daily and that the NHS Trust Development Authority acts Times and the Eastern Daily Press. Nigel Pickover and on that. The ideal solution for me would be to ask Terry Hunt have done good things to keep up the Dr Marsh to come in, whether permanently or on pressure and stand up for their readers, our constituents, an interim basis, to turn around our ambulance trust, who are patients of the East of England Ambulance because he has the skills to make that happen. I want Service NHS Trust. Dr Harris to succeed; however, it is important that we do not rely on the management speak to which my hon. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): And the Harlow Star. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk referred, but recognise that we need to clean the slate. There are of course external factors—we need to Dr Coffey: And the Harlow Star, apparently. work with GPs and A and E—but much of the problem In December 2011, we finally got a meeting with the is internal, because there were not enough training Health Minister and a range of other people around the places or staff. Incidentally, it is right that Whitehall table who could have fixed the issue. We were promised should not seek to control everything, but it is vital that that there would be change and more focus at county MPs have confidence that the NHS Trust Development level, and that patients mattered. The postcode data Authority will take the matter seriously. Furthermore, released in November 2011 showed that that had not CQC needs to be quicker—not to be rash, but not to be been the case. We have never been able to get data at tick-box driven. It failed the ambulance trust and, more 15WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 16WH

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] suffered when waiting for an ambulance or during the handover time in hospital. A tragic case is that of cyclist recently, it decided to withdraw from a meeting with Robert Tyler, who died by the roadside in my constituency MPs to talk about its reaction to the trust plan issued after waiting 45 minutes for an ambulance, despite in April. being only three minutes away from A and E. Sadly, I could have spoken for longer, Mr Howarth, and I such anecdotes are borne out by the statistics and, as I have spoken for longer than you requested, but I genuinely said, the trust failed to meet its operational targets want to ensure that our patients, constituents and residents last year. can rest assured that we will not stop continuing pursuit I was glad to receive a letter from Dr Geoffrey Harris of excellence on their behalf, wherever they live in our that claimed he is starting to see signs of improvement. great part of the country—they deserve nothing but I hope that is so, but on speaking to a worker from the the best. Again, if Cumbria and Cornwall can do it, ambulance service yesterday, it was troubling to hear we can certainly do it in Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex and that they felt that little had improved. The worker made Cambridgeshire. Frankly, until those non-executive directors the important point that we need more ambulances on go, we will not have confidence in the leadership of the the road, telling me that the rapid response vehicles trust to make the difference. were only being used to ensure that targets were hit. To deliver the best patient care, according to the worker, 10.22 am rapid response vehicles should be in addition to ambulances, Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to not a replacement for them. That view is held across the serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I give my trust, with more than 300 staff supporting a move sincerest congratulations to my near neighbour and calling on the management to claim the A19 target only hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who when an ambulance arrives. has led the campaign against the shocking performance I was disturbed when a constituent told me about her of the East of England Ambulance Service NHS Trust. 97-year-old mother who had fallen, hurt her leg and The East of England ambulance service continues to was unable to stand. The first responder arrived quickly give my constituents and me huge concern. As my hon. and provided good care, but because no ambulances Friend said, however, I want to make it clear that those were available, my constituent was left waiting in pain worries are not aimed at front-line staff, for whom I for eight hours. That is absolutely unacceptable, and the have nothing but admiration, especially the senior staff new chairman must look at providing more ambulances, and the paramedics in Harlow. They do a tough job and so that we can minimise patient suffering and provide a give 100% to their work; I am proud that we have such more efficient service. extraordinary people living in Harlow and throughout the east of England. The staff, however, are lions being When I speak to local staff, time and time again they led by donkeys—that is the truth of the matter, as so bring up problems with the management structure and brilliantly highlighted by my hon. Friend. their dissatisfaction with it. Some have pointed to directors At the end of 2012-13, the East of England ambulance whom they hold accountable for the problems in the service had failed to reach its targets, whether for category trust; those directors have not resigned, despite the A response times for calls to do with life-threatening strong pressure to do so. Dr Marsh’s report, as has been situations, the less serious green calls or even the ability highlighted, is no different: he has made it clear that to pick up the phone on time. Not only is the trust some trust non-executive directors need to resign. He failing to hit demanding targets, but my post bag is points to an inability of the board to claim responsibility, regularly filled with letters from local residents complaining a lack of clear vision, too much management and no about the service that they have received. I have also tangible recruitment plan. had staff contact me to complain that they feel they are It is good news that the new chairman of the trust has offering an inadequate service because of the shocking stated that he will be making changes to the board, but I performance of senior managers. join my hon. Friends in calling for five board members It is outrageous that when I have raised constituents’ to resign and, if possible, for them to be taken to court problems with the ambulance service, it has taken an to be sued for legal negligence—I wish that could be the unacceptably long time to respond. For example, I case. It is shocking that they have been allowed to wrote to the trust about a serious case in which one continue when their failings have been made so apparent. person had, tragically, died. The trust did get back to They have put their people’s lives at risk and they have me and acknowledged that its response was unacceptable, treated my local residents of Harlow shoddily. The contributing to the man’s death, but it had taken nearly board must be refreshed, replacing those members with five months to respond to my letter on behalf of the people who have a proven track record of driving up family—that is a disgrace. standards. We have to see change in three areas: we need better I have heard of other problems from workers and resources, targeted at delivering better patient outcomes; residents. Staff are always praised, but staff morale is the management system urgently needs restructuring; the worst of all the ambulance trusts in England—it and we need to show staff that they are valued, increasing is chronically low. Staff are embarrassed by how long their skills, so that they continue to make progress. Only an ambulance can take to reach patients. Sickness levels by doing those things can people in Harlow and throughout are high, with an 8.8% sickness rate—almost double the Essex and the east of England get the treatment that national average for ambulance trusts in England. Also, they deserve. there is lack of training, with staff telling me that they For far too long, I have had residents contacting me feel unsupported; records show that the level of completed about the poor level of service. Nearly all the concerns training days is abysmally low and last year only 45% of are focused on delays that their family or friends have appraisals actually took place. 17WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 18WH

I am pleased that Dr Harris is making some changes, quickly and to meet targets—effectively acting as clock- but action needs to be far quicker. At previous meetings stoppers. If an ambulance is then required to take a with the trust, it seemed to be suggesting that Government patient to hospital, there can be a long delay before it funding was partly to blame, but Dr Marsh’s review arrives, and for a stroke victim that could be very blows that excuse out of the water. As my hon. Friend serious. the Member for Witham says, the review found that the Thirdly, based on what staff told me, it was clear that trust is funded above the average for ambulance trusts, the handover delays at district general hospitals are a possibly by several million pounds. major reason why the service is not functioning properly. The board must take full responsibility for the problems On the two nights when I was out, there were no that have plagued the service over the past few years. problems at the James Paget hospital in Gorleston, and Action should be taken, including provision of a proper I pay tribute to David Hill, its interim chief executive, training programme for existing staff, a coherent recruitment who will step down shortly. Whenever I am with him at plan to rebalance the staff ratio and direction of resources the hospital to discuss the problem, he takes me straight so that more ambulances are on the roads. I favour the down to A and E to see what the situation is like at that ambulance service being broken up, so that there is an time and to get feedback from staff. His is the hands-on, Essex ambulance service, because the East of England at-the-coal-face, sleeves-rolled-up management that the service is far too big. Genuinely, with the right management trust should replicate. and the right resources, we can deliver some of the best Although there were not problems at JPH, there were care to my constituents in Harlow, to Essex and throughout problems at the Norfolk and Norwich hospital, which is the east of England. a Bermuda triangle that swallows up ambulances. I do not want to place too much blame at the hospital’s door, Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): I will call Peter but the development of a large hospital, albeit one that Aldous in a moment and the Opposition spokesman at provides high-quality services and serves a large rural 10.40 am. If the two remaining speakers before the catchment area, means that a possible weak link is Front-Bencher take five minutes each, that should just inadvertently created in the health system in Norfolk about cover the time. and Suffolk. It is important that the new management of the ambulance trust work with the Norfolk and 10.29 am Norwich hospital to strengthen that weak link. Is it any wonder that the management have become Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I will try to keep to so out of touch with their staff and the service they run your timetable, Mr Howarth, but if I do not, please when they set up their headquarters in a stand-alone, intervene. business park location in the middle of the fens? In I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for effect, they are working in a vacuum. Surely they should Witham (Priti Patel) for this debate. In the middle of be close to their operational centres where they can be last year, it hit home to me that there are serious in day-to-day contact with those who are working on problems with the ambulance service and that they are the front line. That isolation may have contributed to placing people’s lives at risk. The trickle of complaints their pursuit of foundation trust status when the service became a torrent. When an elderly lady suffered a they ran was so clearly inadequate for the needs of their stroke, the paramedics and rapid response vehicle arrived patients. They were fiddling while Rome burned. within 10 or 15 minutes, but the ambulance to take her There has been a failure to work properly with voluntary to hospital did not arrive for another 105 minutes. A first-responder groups, which play a key role in working gentleman in Lowestoft fell off his bike and it took with professional paramedics in more isolated rural 90 minutes for the ambulance to arrive from Ipswich, areas. Rumburgh in my constituency has a dedicated some 45 miles away. A 90-year-old disabled gentleman team of responders with the necessary equipment provided fell at home when going to bed and his 84-year-old wife by successful fundraising activities, but it has been was unable to help him. It took four and a half hours unable to work properly because it has been provided for an ambulance to arrive. with no training, no accreditation and no up-to-date Only in December did the ambulance trust agree to maps. carry out a full review of operations, and that was when As to the future, I believe that a corner has been I spent two evenings with crews working out of the turned, but a lot of work is necessary. The trust’s Waveney depot in Gorleston in the constituency of my turnaround plan includes 89 recommendations and there hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon is concern that if they are addressed in a random, Lewis). Those evenings left me with three lasting scattergun way the new board might achieve nothing. It impressions. must focus on the most important issues: patients and First, all the staff I met were dedicated professionals, staff. Staff are the most important asset in any organisation, but they were worn down by the pressures of the job. and that must be remembered as we go forward. Their pleas for understanding to the trust’s senior management fell on deaf ears. On those two evenings, we were on the go from the moment we left the depot. 10.34 am There was no time for meals or comfort breaks, and I Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): It is a was told that 12-hour night shifts almost invariably pleasure to speak in this debate and I congratulate my became 13 or 14-hour shifts. hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on Secondly, it became clear to me that the trust did securing it. The national health service includes many not have the right balance of vehicles on the road. people with different callings, and thank goodness for There were too many cars and not enough ambulances. that. Some have a calling to look down microscopes and There is concern that the cars are used to reach patients to do scientific experiments to figure out how to solve 19WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 20WH

[Mr Richard Bacon] them has been weakened. In 1999, it was stated that confidentiality clauses had no place in NHS contracts; the problem of cancer. Some have a calling to work with by 2004, it was apparently okay if the guidance was people with mental health problems and to help them studied carefully. return to stability, productivity and a flourishing life. In the limited time available I want to make a point Some have a calling to help at the roadside those who about size. The ambulance trust in the east of England are in critical danger following dreadful accidents and covers Hertfordshire, which is practically outer London, those of us who are unfortunate enough to face near and Bedfordshire, which is also practically outer London death. Imagine what it must be like to have that calling, and highly urbanised, as well as places as far away as to feel that one’s life purpose and work is to help such Cromer in north Norfolk, Great Yarmouth, Southwold people, to have the training of a practitioner in emergency in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for medicine, but to have to hold someone who is dying Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and Lowestoft in the because an ambulance trust does not work properly and constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney those higher up let down the practitioners. What would (Peter Aldous). It is simply too big, and that is obvious be the reaction? to everyone. There would come a point when people would say, “I In my rural constituency, ambulances are not just can’t stand this any longer. I can’t stand coming to work dragged away from the rural areas to Norwich. I accept and failing people because those above me are failing the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge me.” That is exactly what has happened. It is absolutely (Dr Huppert), who is no longer in his place, that it is not clear, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert just a rural problem; it is a rural and an urban problem. Halfon) said when quoting from the Marsh report, that When I find that ambulances are being dragged away to it is not about money. The problem is about leadership Bedford and Luton, which are one hour 20 minutes, one and accountability. I will draw out some brief points hour 25 minutes or one hour and 30 minutes from my from that report. It says that constituency, I know that something is fundamentally “critical decision making has ceased in some areas. The trust has wrong. We must stop thinking so much about economies lost focus of the strategic objectives, which may partly be due to of scale and start thinking about the economy of flow— the board not fully understanding the purpose of the business.” removing the blockages that stop things working properly. It continues: The management structure is overly layered and appears heavy…The trust seems to demonstrate limited urgency and pace 10.39 am in moving forward.” Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): It is a pleasure to It also states: speak under your chairmanship again, Mr Howarth. I “Leadership does not come from Board level”. intend to be fairly brief, to allow the Minister to answer What are they doing, and why are they still there after many of the questions that have been put to her by that damning report? colleagues. I extend my thanks to the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) for securing this debate, which is As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I timely and important, as today’s attendance illustrates. have spent 12 years studying slow-motion disasters in various areas of Government and I have read many Along with other Members, the hon. Lady is right to National Audit Office reports across the whole swathe praise the commitment and dedication of front-line of Government activity and public expenditure, but I staff. Their vocational example illustrates the best of have rarely read words as damning as those. Yet the everything that there is to say about the NHS. I am sure people who are responsible, who, as my hon. Friend the that all Members are aware of cases that have arisen Member for Harlow said, have so badly failed those through poor ambulance service performance. Members whose job it is to serve us and our constituents, are still have spoken today, sometimes in shocking detail, about in post. That is something I cannot understand, and I examples of people who deserve better care from this very much hope that the Minister will address it. If it is ambulance service, and the debate is needed because of not addressed, there will come a point when people will those cases. Indeed, in opening the debate, the hon. start asking the Department of Health why it has not Lady said that, right now, lives are being put at risk. been addressed, because the matter is so serious. The East of England Ambulance Service NHS Trust This did not use to happen. I have been the Member covers more than 7,500 square miles and deals with of Parliament for South Norfolk in the east of England more than half a million emergency calls a year. That for 12 years, and until the last year or two I do not recall undoubtedly presents challenges, but there can be no people regularly writing to me with complaints about excuse for less-than-excellent service. As the hon. Member ambulance delays. I do not remember regularly turning for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) said, second up at meetings in the House where there were 15 paramedics best is not good enough, and I absolutely endorse that. talking to the Minister, Earl Howe, facilitated by east of Dr Anthony Marsh’s governance review, which was England MPs, because there was no possibility of their published earlier this month, is deeply worrying. He having a sensible conversation with the management of commented that the trust’s board and senior management their own organisation. This is an extraordinary state of team have developed a sense of helplessness. That is affairs and it requires radical reform. exceptionally disturbing, and it needs to be rectified. He There is not time in this debate to talk about the has said that internal and external communications wider issues of the NHS culture, but reference has been need to improve without delay, but furthermore, made to revolving doors and how people lose jobs in performance needs to improve. one place and gain them in another—I have seen a lot of Comparing December 2011 with December 2012, the that myself. In addition there is the issue of confidentiality average handover time—the time between an ambulance clauses and the way in which the guidance against using arriving at a hospital and the hospital taking responsibility 21WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 22WH for the patient—increased by more than three minutes incentives to staff to retire early or to leave the service. to more than 20 minutes a patient. The number of The trust spent almost £100,000 on those incentives, patients waiting more than 30 minutes increased by and it is now offering staff a £500 bonus if they refer a 75%, from around 2,000 to more than 3,500. Even more friend to join the trust. If it needs staff, it should not be worryingly, the wait for patients does not start there; the offering incentives for staff to leave. What kind of number of ambulances responding to the most serious recruitment programme is that, and how does that call-outs within eight minutes was fewer than 70%. illustrate protection of the public purse? It is an incredibly Those numbers are shocking enough, but the figure worrying demonstration of the lack of communication that helps to demonstrate the worst type of patient and oversight within the trust. The position appears to experience is that, in December 2012, at least one patient be entirely incoherent. waited in the back of an ambulance for more than Dr Marsh’s report put a great deal of emphasis on six-and-a-half hours, and the hon. Member for Harlow the existence of a real disconnect within the organisation. (Robert Halfon) raised an even worse example. It is As he rightly outlined, worrying how only a few numbers can paint such a “It is the responsibility of the Board…to ensure the Governance vivid picture of a service that is clearly not working as it arrangements and the plans for the Trust are appropriate and should for the patients who rely on it, and, as has been robust enough to keep risk as low as practicably possible”, pointed out repeatedly, who pay for it as well. which includes ensuring that I am heartened to learn that the trust recognises that “all patients receive the best treatment in a timely fashion.” its service has not been acceptable, and I welcome the It is crucial that members of the board take responsibility turnaround plan that was released in late April. I ask for that and for patient care in a wider context. Has the the Minister to outline any discussions that she, or the Minister met the board recently to find a solution to the Secretary of State for Health, has had with the trust current organisational and personnel issues that are that informed the plan and its implementation. Will she referred to in Dr Marsh’s report? explain why, when the data that I have just given, as others have freely done today, are so easily accessible, I have outlined the poor performance of the trust nothing has been done previously to improve performance from only a few key indicators from data that are widely in the trust? I also ask her to provide the details of all available. The Department needs to be robust in helping efforts made by the Department to help the trust improve to address those issues, and I hope that the Minister performance, when those began and what the results gives the assurances that patients need and deserve. In have been. We are seeing all aspects of emergency care her response, I hope that she tells the Chamber when services—whether ambulance trusts or accident and she expects the problems with this ambulance trust to emergency departments—being driven into chaos too be resolved; what the Department is doing to assist the often of late. We have just endured the worst winter trust with its recovery; what additional expenditure, if performance in A and E for years, and the warnings are any, that will require; and whether hospitals that are that next winter’s will be even worse. reliant on the trust can expect any additional support, financial or otherwise, owing to the avoidable operational It cannot be a coincidence that during December pressures that the ambulance trust has placed upon 2012—the month to which my previous figures relate— them. Can she guarantee that the performance of the hospitals in the east of England region missed their trust has not seriously affected clinical outcomes for A and E target more often than not, and almost one in patients in the local area? Based on today’s evidence, I 10 patients had to wait for more than four hours in would find that hard to accept. Can she give an assurance A and E before receiving treatment. Pressures in one that, once the trust is operating acceptably, the Department part of the service can manifest in other places—as has will not allow this to happen again? Finally, when will often been said, A and E is the bellwether of NHS patients in the east of England get the ambulance performance—and there is clearly a link between poor service that they deserve? performance in ambulance services and the pressure so clearly apparent in A and E units around the country. When a patient needs emergency care, they are being 10.47 am made to wait at home, then wait in an ambulance, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health then wait in a waiting room. When the Minister responds, (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure to serve under your I hope that she will offer some explanation for that poor chairmanship, Mr Howarth. I begin by paying tribute performance. I hope that she will also outline any to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) discussions that she has had with other ambulance for bringing this matter, quite properly, to Westminster trusts to ensure that those failings are not repeated Hall this morning, for giving an excellent speech, and elsewhere in the country. for her outstanding campaign on behalf of her constituents. Moving on to the personnel aspect of Dr Marsh’s In simple terms, she seeks to hold the ambulance trust, report, he raised concerns about the rate of sickness which clearly has performance figures that are simply absence in the trust. Alarm bells should be ringing that unacceptable—they are the lowest in the country—to the level is so much higher than in other trusts. Did the account. There is a clear feeling of anger—that is no Department of Health become aware of that, and if so, criticism at all; it is based on frustration. I know that my when did it become aware and what was done about it? hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) In April, at the time of Dr Marsh’s governance review, has joined her in this admirable work, and despite the acting chief, Andrew Morgan, announced plans to raising the issue and notwithstanding all their efforts, recruit 350 staff. He denied a staffing crisis, but admitted they are frustrated and angry because they feel that it that the leadership was not good enough. I think that has taken many months for the trust to even begin to that is an understatement, given that it was widely make some sort of attempt to address the inherent reported in May that the trust was offering financial problems that it clearly faces. 23WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 24WH

[Anna Soubry] the buck passing in the NHS and the recycling. We also heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Maldon Another thing that clearly emerges from the many (Mr Whittingdale) and for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). interventions and excellent speeches by hon. Members My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) this morning is that there is wholesale support, and made an excellent speech. My hon. Friend the Member many tributes, for the staff—the front-line workers. for Suffolk Coastal also made an excellent and important Nobody is for one moment saying that there is any speech. There were interventions from my hon. Friends failing on their part. The failing is clear: it is failing at a the Members for Clacton (Mr Carswell) and for Cambridge leadership level and at board level. There is a failing of (Dr Huppert) and from my right hon. Friend the Member leadership, which must be addressed as matter of some for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). There were urgency. speeches by my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow, I only have about 12 minutes to address the many for North West Norfolk and for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon). points that have been made, so the usual rules apply: They all made important and good points. anybody who has asked a question that I am not able to We know that overall in England in 2012-13 the answer in my short speech will, of course, get a written number of emergency calls to ambulance services answer. I just want to deal quickly with the important was 9.08 million—a 6.9% increase. That is an important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North figure, I would suggest. We know that overall, in England, West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), who asked whether the the performance figures are stable. That does not really usual rules that apply to non-executives on public limited assist in this debate, of course, because we also know companies, or on companies that are listed on the stock that the East of England ambulance trust and, I have to exchange and so on, apply to non-executives who are say, my own, the East Midlands ambulance trust, have appointed to NHS trusts. I must tell him that the rules serious failings and the performance figures are simply are not the same; their responsibilities and duties are not good enough. different. I will provide more detail in a letter to my The best that I can say of the performance of the hon. Friend, but it is not as simple as it is when people East of England ambulance trust is that it has not been are non-executive directors on other bodies, where it good. It is clearly recognised as the lowest-performing could be said there is much more accountability and ambulance trust in England. As with the national picture, much more of a duty on them to resign when there have its overall poor performance figures hide huge discrepancies been the sorts of failings that we have heard about between the services and response times in the urban today—if that was applied to a business, for example. and rural areas that it covers. There are too many stories—we have heard many today—of patients in Robert Halfon: Will the Minister give way? distress having to wait hours for ambulances, or solo paramedics being sent when an ambulance is needed. Anna Soubry: May I just make one other point? Then Solo paramedics cannot transport patients and might I shall be more than happy to give way, although the not, for instance, be able to lift or move a patient clock is against me, as my hon. Friend will appreciate. unaided. It is simply not good enough. Here we have another issue that should concern, as It is clear to me that some hon. Members and I know it does, all hon. Members, on both sides of the many patients might be forgiven for thinking that the House. It is the culture that is now becoming clear. I trust seems to have forgotten that it is there to serve take the view that it is not a new culture. I suspect that it all patients and not only tick the performance boxes has been there for many years. It is just that it is now as far as it can. Concentrating resources in towns and being exposed, often through the admirable work of effectively abandoning people in the countryside is simply Members of Parliament and because of the work of my unacceptable. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. That is a mates culture, where people’s priority is to protect their mates, systems and procedures, as opposed Mr Bacon: Will the Minister give way? to what should be the absolute priority for somebody in the NHS, which is to protect the patient—not their Anna Soubry: May I make some progress? Then I will friends and the structures, but the patient—and also, of take an intervention. The latest figures, as we have course, the hard-earned money of the taxpayer. heard, show that the East of England ambulance trust failed to deliver two of the three response time standards. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend will have heard me The exception was the performance against Category A set out the treatment of Harlow residents. Does she Red 1—immediately life threatening—calls, where the agree with me and with our hon. Friend the Member for 75% standard was achieved, with 75.8% of calls responded South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) that the East of England to within eight minutes. ambulance trust is too big and should be broken up, and that we should restore the Essex ambulance service Mr Bacon: The phenomenon of people forgetting trust? what they are there for, which my hon. Friend alluded to, is of course what would happen in a mates culture. I Anna Soubry: That is a good point, but it is not for have had the feeling for a long time that there has been me to say whether it has any merit that should be taken the growth of what we might call a self-serving forward. But clearly it is an important point, which nomenclatura that looks after its own interests first. must now be considered. Then I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol May I quickly pay tribute to all the very helpful North West (Charlotte Leslie) on the radio the other interventions from hon. Friends? My hon. Friend day referring to a mafia within the top of the NHS, the Member for Broadland (Mr Simpson) talked about looking out for their own interests. What I want to 25WH East of England Ambulance Service25 JUNE 2013 East of England Ambulance Service 26WH know is, as this is a recognised phenomenon—I do not We might well ask why some ambulance services with think we are going mad—what is the Department going comparable funding to the East of England trust—this to do about it? is not about funding, cuts or money; it is about leadership and poor management—and the same mix of urban Anna Soubry: In short, what I will say is that the and rural areas can provide a good level of service and Secretary of State has made it clear that it is a culture others cannot. I believe that the ambulance staff will that he will not accept, and that no member of his generally be the same in their dedication to caring for ministerial team will accept. He is now becoming patients, so as I said, it is all about effective—or in this undoubtedly the champion of the patient. We are seeing case, ineffective—management. that. We saw it last week with the CQC and then of course we saw the change: the names of people who had The trust has recently had the benefit of an excellent been put forward in the report were made public and governance review prepared by Dr Anthony Marsh. I people are now being held to account. We are beginning pay public tribute to him and thank him for that. I have to see at least a tackling of this culture; we now need to referred to it already, as have other hon. Members. It is see some results. a clear and professional account, and I will arrange for a copy of it to be placed in the Library. Dr Marsh is, as Mr Keith Simpson: My hon. Friend has alluded, as we know, the chief executive of the West Midlands have other hon. Friends, to leadership. Is the NHS ambulance service and he chairs the Association of thinking of positively recruiting from senior retired Ambulance Chief Executives, so he knows what he is people from the armed forces, who display leadership talking about. His report, as we have heard, reveals how and the ability to get people to work together? A poorly the trust has been managed and how the valiant brigadier had to sort out BSE over 10 years ago, because efforts of front-line staff have been undermined. My nobody in the Department for Environment, Food and hon. Friend the Member for Harlow described them as Rural Affairs could. “lions led by donkeys”. Results from the 2012 staff survey for the trust underline Anna Soubry: That is an excellent point, extremely that. Only one key finding improved; nine key findings well made. I shall certainly take it away and speak to the became worse. The East of England ambulance service Secretary of State, because this really is important, but trust had by far the worst staff survey results of all to be fair to the NHS, it does have its own leadership ambulance trusts in England, with 13 of the lowest academy, where it seeks to bring on people. That is scores. Its sickness levels—I think this is a very important within the NHS. But I think that we should involve far statistic; it says it all—are nearly twice the average of more people from other fields, who could come into the those in other trusts. However, I am pleased to say that NHS—people with huge skill sets, who have proved Dr Marsh will be working closely with the trust over the those in other walks of life. I am thinking of, for coming months to ensure that the necessary action is example, retired judges, who would have an invaluable taken, and taken quickly. role to play—people who have shown real leadership and not been afraid to make tough decisions in the right The NHS Trust Development Authority—it is called circumstances. All these people should now be being the TDA—provides the line of accountability from looked at actively to play a role. local NHS trusts to the Secretary of State for the performance of the organisation. Steps have already Priti Patel Will the Minister give way? been taken to address poor performance. As we know, a new interim chair, Dr Geoff Harris, has been appointed; Anna Soubry: I will take one quick intervention with he took up his post at the end of May. His first task is to four minutes to go. review the trust board and ensure that the right people are on it. He needs, if I may say so, to be quick and Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way; decisive. To make the necessary changes, the board she has been very generous. There is a specific issue not needs to be fully capable of radically improving its just about leadership but about accountability with this performance. I am fully aware that many hon. Members trust. Is the Minister able to tell us what is preventing hold strong views about the role that board members the current non-exec directors from resigning their posts play, and I have made my comments accordingly. The immediately? duty of the trust board is to add value to the organisation, enabling it to deliver health care and health improvement Anna Soubry: I know of no reason why they should within the law and without causing harm. It should do not. Of course, it is a matter for their own consciences. I that by providing a framework of good governance. am not one who normally shies away from giving an opinion, as my hon. Friend, I hope, would agree, but I Earl Howe, as we have heard, is the Minister responsible. think that in this instance it is very important that He has taken a close interest in the matter and visited Ministers do not give an opinion and do not get involved. the trust at the end of May. He has met hon. Members. I think that would be quite improper. It is for those He is committed to convening a second meeting towards people, or anybody who has come under criticism, to the end of this year, when we all expect to see real examine their own role and their own conscience and evidence of changes for the better. We will of course act accordingly. continue to monitor the situation closely. 27WH 25 JUNE 2013 Habitats Directive (Bats and 28WH Churches) Habitats Directive (Bats and Churches) events, such as children’s playgroups and lunch clubs for the elderly, for which a domestic level of hygiene is expected. 11 am Large internal roosts of bats have significant financial Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I am grateful for and human costs to those who worship in church buildings. the opportunity to raise the issue of bats in churches The cost of cleaning, bat monitoring, delays to building and the impact of the EU habitats directive. The House work and bat mitigation measures are significant and will not be surprised that I wish to do so, given my must be funded by weekly church collections, at the role as the Second Church Estates Commissioner. At expense of the other pressing demands of sustaining the outset, I want to make it clear that as far as I am the church community and church buildings. The amount concerned, bats are part of God’s creation. Indeed, of monitoring and mitigation required, before even there are three specific references to bats in the bible: basic repair works can be undertaken, can act as a Leviticus, chapter 11, verse 19; Deuteronomy, chapter 14, disincentive to the ongoing maintenance needed to verse 18; and Isaiah, chapter 2, verse 20. Bats are part of retain a church building in good condition. Such delays the interdependence of God’s creation, but the numbers are not only costly, but disheartening for church of some bat species in the UK are under pressure, which congregations and communities, who work hard to is why the EU habitats directive applies. keep church buildings alive and fit for community use. Many of the churches affected by bat infestation are Bats are mammals, and one of the things I remember approaching a situation where their buildings may be about mammals from my A-level zoology course is that unsustainable as places of worship. It is sometimes said they can be distinguished from other species by seven that excluding bats from churches will render the bats characteristics, two of which are that mammals defecate homeless, but there is every chance that church and urinate. The blunt reality is that bat faeces and bat congregations will find themselves homeless and without urine have the potential to cause and do cause enormous a place of worship, with listed buildings left unoccupied. damage in churches. English parish churches and cathedrals That solution is surely undesirable for both bats and have significant holdings of monumental sculpture that people. date back to medieval England. Bat urine and faeces are extremely damaging to church monuments, as they are The costs are not insignificant. St Hilda’s, Ellerburn, to other important artefacts in churches. Bat urine in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member decays to form dilute ammonia, which is alkaline, chemically for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), Chair of the aggressive and can cause pitting, staining or etching on Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural porous or polished material. Monumental brasses are Affairs, has so far spent some £29,000 on mitigation particularly affected by the urine. It causes corrosion, repairs. Another typical example is St Andrew’s church evidenced in a disfiguring spotted appearance to the in Holme Hale, Norfolk, which was forced to spend surface, as on the brass at the church at Elsing in £2,600 in a single year on cleaning costs to clear up after Norfolk—one of the finest brasses in England. its resident bats. The mitigation work associated with church repairs over three years for just one architect—just Sculptured monuments are also being damaged by one architect!—totalled £57,000. bat urine and faeces. The small number of medieval wooden effigies that survive in England are susceptible The situation is summed up in a letter sent to me after to damage to the pattern of the surface, which has been I had an exchange in the House with my hon. Friend the built up over centuries. Bat urine can also harm precious Minister. I posed the question: original paint and other surface finishes on historic “Do Ministers consider it acceptable that a number of historic monuments. For example, the church of St Peter ad English churches are being made unusable as a consequence of Vincula at South Newington in my constituency has bat faeces and that mediaeval wall paintings and other historic monuments are being irretrievably damaged as a consequence some very fine—almost unique—medieval wall paintings, of bat urine? Churches are not farm barns. They are places of which were spared by Thomas Cromwell’s men, but worship and should be respected as such.” having survived the ravages of the Reformation, these The Minister responded: irreplaceable parts of our national heritage are now threatened by bat urine. A build-up of bat faeces on the “I entirely agree with my hon. Friend and share his intense porous surface of monuments, especially marble and frustration. I am glad to say that we are moving forward with one church in Yorkshire, where we think we may have found a alabaster, is also problematic. The excreta hardens and resolution, and some churches in Norfolk. It cannot have ever is then subject to moisture, which is common in churches. been the intention of those who imposed this directive on us to Bat faeces can cause marked discolouration and other limit the ability of people to worship in a church that has been harm. Of course, it is possible for monuments to be there for centuries.”—[Official Report, 7 March 2013; Vol. 559, protected to an extent by covering them with sheets of c. 1112.] plastic, but that is unsightly, prevents them from being That exchange prompted a number of people to get in seen and enjoyed by the wider public, and can produce touch with me, including Mr Thompson from East Keal a microclimate that leads to other conservation issues. in Lincolnshire, who wrote: Importantly, churches are places of worship; they are “My local Church is St Helen’s Church, East Keal, and we like not field barns. I fully appreciate that one of the challenges so many Churches have problems with bats. The pews have for bats is that some of their natural habitat is threatened, become damaged and the organ pitted with their urine and but there has to be a balance. Churches are active droppings. We are lucky in so far as we have a dedicated team who community centres; indeed, the Church of England is clean the Church weekly. The Church goes back to 1067. Recently we had the Tower blocked to keep the birds out. We however were making every effort to ensure that as many churches as required to make slots convenient to the bats to come into the possible can be centres for community use and community Church. Having the bats means any work to be carried out on the life, used throughout the week, not just for a few hours roof can only be carried out during a small timescale. We now on a Sunday. Churches play host to a wide range of need a new roof and are trying to get a grant from English 29WH Habitats Directive (Bats and 25 JUNE 2013 Habitats Directive (Bats and 30WH Churches) Churches) Heritage. We are trying to get a toilet and kitchen but in the Sir Tony Baldry: This debate would not be necessary, interests of Health & Safety, we should be looking to have bats and I would not be detaining the House by raising the removed from the Churches.” issue, if it had been possible to sort out satisfactory bat We will all have enormous sympathy with the congregation mitigation measures. If the hon. Lady would like to visit and the community of East Keal in Lincolnshire who with me some of the congregations and communities are confronted with those challenges. whose lives have been made difficult and whose churches What are the policy issues here? Bats are a European have been made unusable as a consequence of bats, I protected species under the habitats directive 1994. In will most certainly arrange that. most circumstances, it is a criminal offence to disturb The Bat Conservation Trust has singularly failed to bats or to damage or destroy their breeding site or solve the problem as, in my judgment, has Natural resting place deliberately. The criminal offence in English England, and that is why it has been necessary to raise law, with a maximum sentence of six months’imprisonment, the issue and to continue to press the Minister to find a is provided by regulation 41(1) of the Conservation of solution. Only this week European Union Heads of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010. Natural England Government were giving thought as to how to protect has the power to grant a licence, the effect of which is freedom of religion within the EU, and I cannot believe that bats can be deliberately disturbed, or their breeding that the European Commission and the Commissioner sites and resting places damaged or destroyed, without would want a situation in which it was not possible for its being a criminal office. The existence of such a congregations to worship in churches that go back to licence constitutes a defence to the criminal charge. the time of the Conqueror, because of bat infestations. There are four possible grounds on which Natural England The second matter to which Natural England must have can issue a licence. For the purposes of regard to grant a licence is that, under regulation 53(9)(b), “preventing serious damage to...property”, the interference with the bats a licence can be granted under regulation 53(2)(g). I “will not be detrimental to the maintenance of the population of would have thought that if bats were fouling a church, the species concerned at a favourable conservation status in their or otherwise making it, or parts of it, unusable, that natural range”. would constitute “serious damage” to property. Again, unless the bats were of a particularly endangered I cannot see why a licence cannot be issued if it is for species—for example, Greater Horseshoe bats—it is the purposes of preserving public health. A licence can difficult to see how that provision could cause a problem be granted under regulation 53(2)(e) on such grounds, to Natural England. For far too many churches and and if it can be shown that the use of a church, and the communities it seems to be taking far too long to public health of the congregation and the general public, achieve the reasonable mitigation or exclusion of bats, have been damaged by bats, it should be possible for with practical difficulties and expense involved in seeking Natural England to grant a licence. permission and getting licences, without any guarantee There is also provision for granting a licence, if there as to the outcome. I cannot believe that if I were to get are in touch with the EU Commissioner they would consider “imperative reasons of overriding public interest including those it appropriate that churches were being treated in that of a social or economic nature and…of primary importance to way. There needs to be a significant reduction in the the environment”. costs, along with a simplified process for securing a In such circumstances a licence can be granted under licence from Natural England. regulation 53(2)(e). I would have thought that being As I have already indicated, mitigation work associated able to use a church as a church, and being able to have with church repairs over three years for just one architect churches not only as places of worship but increasingly in one church totalled £57,000 and, prosaically, a for use by the wider community, was a matter of overriding replacement of a broken window quarry with a lead public interest and importance. Moreover, as far as back-flap cost £140 rather than the £5 it would have the second part of the test is concerned, when one has cost for plain glass, which is the equivalent of four regard to grade I or grade II* listed churches, the weeks’ collection in the rural parish church of Wiggenhall removal of bats will make possible the preservation and St Germans. At the moment, the expense of getting a enhancement of a listed building, which is of particular licence is prohibitive and, as a consequence, the law is importance to the higher grades of such buildings, and inoperable. to our national heritage. I wish to make it clear that this is not simply a matter I appreciate that Natural England cannot grant a of aesthetics, of ancient monuments, irreplaceable pictures licence under regulation 53(2) unless it is satisfied of and wall paintings being damaged. A paper published two further matters. The first is that there is no satisfactory by the Royal Society earlier this year entitled “Acomparison alternative under regulation 53(9)(a), but I cannot see of bats and rodents as reservoirs of zoonotic viruses: that being a problem. Obliging churches and church are bats special?” was unambiguous. The abstract states: congregations and communities to co-exist with bats is “Bats are the natural reservoirs of a number of high-impact plainly not a “satisfactory alternative”. viral zoonoses. We present a quantitative analysis to address the hypothesis that bats are unique in their propensity to host zoonotic Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I am finding viruses based on a comparison with rodents, another important the debate very interesting. Is the hon. Gentleman host order. We found that bats indeed host more zoonotic viruses aware that many churches do co-exist with bats? Is he per species than rodents, and we identified life-history and ecological aware of the work of the Bat Conservation Trust and its factors that promote zoonotic viral richness. More zoonotic viruses are hosted by species whose distributions overlap with a national bat helpline, in helping churches to adapt to greater number of other species in the same taxonomic having a bat population? I appreciate that protecting order…Specifically in bats, there was evidence for increased zoonotic both historical buildings and a protected species is viral richness in species with smaller litters…greater longevity difficult, but the trust does some good work. and more litters per year. Furthermore, our results point to a new 31WH Habitats Directive (Bats and 25 JUNE 2013 Habitats Directive (Bats and 32WH Churches) Churches) [Sir Tony Baldry] raise a problem that causes great distress to people who value places of worship not just for their heritage and hypothesis to explain in part why bats host more zoonotic viruses religious importance, but for what they do for their per species: the stronger effect of sympatry in bats and more communities. viruses shared between bat species suggest that interspecific transmission is more prevalent among bats than among rodents.” Like my hon. Friend, I support bat conservation. As The potential for bats to spread disease is of significant he said, bats are another of God’s creatures and are part importance to churches that provide food and drink in of our natural heritage: 17 species of bat are resident their buildings, and have old people’s and children’s and and breed in the UK. I want to say a few words to put toddlers’ groups. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister into context the protection that they enjoy before I turn is as anxious as we all are for a solution to be found. to the specific issue of bats in churches. Until very This is a serious problem; it is not a joke. The issue is recently, the number of bats in this country had suffered getting more difficult, more frustrating and more challenging a dramatic decline, most notably because of changes to for more communities all the time, and we look to the habitats, such as the loss of many of our hedgerows in Minister and the Department for Environment, Food the last century and the destruction or refurbishment of and Rural Affairs to come forward with practical proposals many traditional buildings. Those changes, particularly to ensure that churches and communities can worship the loss or alteration of other old buildings, have resulted and flourish unimpeded by bats. in bats increasingly making use of and seeking refuge in some older churches. In turn, those buildings have in some cases probably become more important to the 11.18 am survival of bats. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Although the presence of small numbers of bats in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): churches rarely causes any problem, larger numbers I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir certainly can result in intolerable problems in some Tony Baldry)for raising this important issue. It is always churches. Given the reduction in the number of bats a pleasure to see him, but I was dismayed that not long and the threats that they face, all species of bat have ago he had to bring yet another delegation to my been listed in the EU habitats directive, but as my hon. office—a Trollopian group of senior clerics and others—to Friend said, there are a number of derogations from talk about the problem yet again. I would have hoped it otherwise prohibited actions, including activities that unnecessary to have this debate, but I recognise that the cover public health and safety or the prevention of problem persists, and I hope to be able to reassure him serious damage to property. Natural England is the that we are tackling it. licensing authority for such cases in England. The simple way to look at the issue is to say, “We can One or both of those tests would clearly seem to be interpret the regulations how we like, and if the European met in the circumstances that we are discussing, but the Union doesn’t like that, we will see it in court,” but that directive and our implementing regulations require some is not a sensible approach to such directives, as my hon. checks and balances to ensure that harmful or unnecessary Friend well knows from his experience in my Department. actions are not permitted, such as that the action must The alternative is to seek to change the directive and its not negatively affect the conservation status of the implications for churches and other places of worship. species and that there are no alternatives to the actions That approach may have merit, but it is a longer-term proposed. Although many people may agree with my route down which we need to go in a proportionate way hon. Friend’s points about the likelihood of bats finding because, as I will go on to say, we should be mindful of alternative roost sites and, indeed, about the unacceptability the species that we are discussing and the serious declines of the alternative of doing nothing, the tests are not that they have suffered. The third way is to seek to find easy to meet, as is clear from some European Court a solution within the framework of the directive, but cases. Frustrating though that is, it is a fact. one that is quick and effective, and I hope to give him some comfort about that in the remaining minutes. As my hon. Friend and I have inferred, the problem I stand by every word that I said in reply to my hon. may be that some affected populations are the rarest Friend’s question in the House. It is clearly not acceptable and are in locations of particular importance to the that people’s rights to worship in buildings that were species. Like him, however, I simply do not believe that consecrated many centuries ago and are used for that those who drafted the habitats directive intended to purpose should be affected in such a way. Equally, it is render places of worship unusable to congregations or not acceptable that priceless artefacts or the furnishings to impose unreasonable financial burdens on them. necessary for a church to function as a place of worship That cannot have been the purpose of the directive, and should be damaged or put at risk. He clearly outlined we must find a way round it. that that is happening in many churches because of the It is clear that the granting of permission—for example, presence and impact of bats. to destroy a bat maternity roost by blocking access to The way in which I look at churches has changed it—might result in challenge and delay. Nobody, least of since the problem was brought to my attention. My all parishioners, wants a long drawn-out debate; they mind now occasionally strays from the sermon, and I want solutions. To achieve solutions and resolution to look up to see the impact that bats may be having in my such intolerable problems sooner rather than later, we church or elsewhere. In the vast majority of places of are taking action on two fronts. First, we are making worship, it is managed perfectly well: either the quantity sure that the guidance offered by Natural England and of bats is small or the species does not affect the the national bat helpline is clear, proportionate and premises, or the bats are properly dealt with by those unambiguous. Secondly, we are undertaking specific who manage the building, but in all too many cases actions at several churches to find means of moving there is a serious problem. My hon. Friend is right to bats away from sensitive areas. 33WH Habitats Directive (Bats and 25 JUNE 2013 Habitats Directive (Bats and 34WH Churches) Churches) Unfortunately, there are examples of costs and delays might create another by entombing the bats, possibly occurring, as my hon. Friend has mentioned. For that resulting in the presence of rotting carcases within the reason, I have asked Natural England to look again at infrastructure of a church. Therefore, the Bristol university the guidance that it provides to churches about the sort team will trial smarter uses of lighting this year to see of operations that can take place without a licence or a whether such a relatively cheap method could be used bat survey. The figure that he mentioned of the cost to effectively by churches. a small rural church is intolerable: the process has to be Based on last year’s results, acoustic devices appear quicker and cheaper, which I am doing everything I can to present the best hope for a solution. To date, those to ensure. devices have been used only for short periods, but they To make sure that unnecessary costs are not incurred, were effective in moving the bats from their maternity I have asked Natural England to provide guidance on roosts to other parts of churches and, in some cases, in the nature of surveys that may be required or the sort of moving them out of churches. This year, acoustic devices actions to prevent impacts on bats. I believe that many will be used for longer periods to prove, I hope, that the problems come not from Government agencies, but bats do not habituate or get used to the devices and organisations such as building companies or architects simply start to ignore them. who say, “Oh, you need to do this,” or “You will get into At the same time, Bristol university has initiated trouble if you don’t do that.” We need to get to those work to explore the use of a prototype acoustic device people as well, because they advise church wardens and that would be portable and cheaper to use. I am hopeful others about what they can and cannot do. There is a lot that extended trials this year, together with the production of misunderstanding about what is required. of portable devices, will finally produce a permanent I have also asked Natural England to look into solution to the problems that many churches have had reports of over-zealous advice being given to churches. to put up with. I look forward to seeing the results of It has assured me that it will investigate any such the work at the end of this year and to sharing those instances. I rely on my hon. Friend, in his position as results with my hon. Friend and the Church. Those the Second Church Estates Commissioner, to keep me deterrents may not, however, provide solutions for all informed of the dafter stories. churches. Better guidance will go a long way to minimising the I conclude by mentioning one situation that my hon. impact of bats on most churches, but as we have heard, Friend raised—that of St Hilda’s, Ellerburn, in North large populations of bats cause serious concerns in too Yorkshire. St Hilda’s is a single vestibule building, and many churches. In those cases, dealing with them is not in such a case there is simply no possibility of moving just an expensive chore; they can make the church bats to a less sensitive area. To resolve the problem unusable at the worst times. That cannot continue, so there, Natural England has let a contract to gain the we are funding research to find ways to move bats to necessary evidence to enable the complete exclusion of less sensitive areas of churches. bats from the church. It was hoped that the exclusion In a two-and-a-half year project, a team led by Bristol would occur before the bats begin to arrive in a week or university is investigating the combined use of deterrents two’s time, to avoid entombing the young bats. If, and alternative roosting sites, such as bat boxes, to because of the unpredictable weather, insufficient data encourage bats to move away from sensitive areas were gathered before the summer to support an exclusion in churches. The study, which is taking place in eight at St Hilda’s, work will continue over the summer to Norfolk churches, began in 2011, and the project trialled ensure that there is enough information to reach an the use of three types of deterrent—lighting, acoustic absolutely clear resolution of the problem in that church. and radar—last year. For those who think that we can I very much appreciate this opportunity to outline just block bats out of churches, that is more difficult a problem that I am absolutely determined to resolve. I than they possibly imagine. Many of the buildings are really respect my hon. Friend for how he introduced the mediaeval and have more ways in than we can imagine. debate, and for his work to resolve this problem. The most dramatic effects were found when using 500 W halogen lamps: the bats simply refused to come 11.30 am out of their roosts. That solves one problem, but it Sitting suspended. 35WH 25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 36WH

Royal Mail Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Although this proposal is an opportunity, it also has some costs. My concern is that rural and island areas such as mine would face problems. Is it the case that keeping the [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] service with Ofcom provides a guarantee and means that there will be no change? 2.30 pm Katy Clark: I hope to explore some of those issues in Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a today’s debate. The fear is that the current regime, pleasure, Mr Davies, to see you in the Chair and to have which was set up under the 2011 Act, will not give the secured this debate on the privatisation of Royal Mail. I kind of security that many of us feel is required. should declare an interest here. I am chair of the Communication Workers Union’s parliamentary group. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Members may well be aware that only last week in a Lady for being so gracious in giving way and congratulate consultative ballot on Royal Mail 96% of CWU members her on securing this debate. The fact that so many voted to reject the Government’s proposals in relation Members are here indicates the interest in the matter to privatisation. Other organisations such as the National across the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Federation of SubPostmasters have also expressed concerns Northern Ireland. Is she aware that the annual profit of about the Government’s plans and have called for a Royal Mail has risen by up to 60% in the past year, delay in the proposals. It says that post offices will face which shows that we now have a more viable and stable an “extremely uncertain future” should the proposals business? Does she also think that, perhaps for older go ahead. Given the concern in the industry about the people in rural areas, the post office represents more Government’s plans, Parliament should have the time than just a place to go to buy their postage stamps and and the opportunity to debate such issues. that the impact on them will be greater than on anyone In addition to the concerns that I have just outlined else in the population? in relation to post offices, the affordable six-day service is under threat and would be less secure if Royal Mail is Katy Clark: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful transferred into private ownership. The Government point, which I hope to explore in my speech. The point claim that the universal service is enshrined in law, but that I was making 18 months ago when I previously many aspects of the universal service obligation are set secured a debate on this issue was that no other country by the regulator and can be easily changed. The track in the world has attempted to do what the Government record of the regulator to date does not inspire confidence. are doing here, which is to separate the mail service The regulator has recently consulted on user needs from from the post office network. At that time, a great deal the universal service. It looked at ways in which the of the concern over the proposed privatisation related universal service could be changed to make it cheaper to the already vulnerable post office network. At the to run, including getting rid of first-class mail and time, there were many warm words from the Government therefore next-day service, reducing quality standards about how post offices would not suffer as they would and cutting delivery days from six to five days each become the front of house for the Government. Indeed, week. The regulator stepped back from making any the Government said in that debate that they were changes, but a privatised Royal Mail under severe pressure looking at a range of both national and local government to compete and to generate a return for shareholders is services that post offices could provide. They said that likely to lobby for such changes. post offices could act as the front line for users in local In the coalition agreement, the Government said that communities. they would aim to inject private capital into Royal Mail. One of the major reasons why the National Federation The Postal Services Act 2011, which was passed by of SubPostmasters is now saying that there should be Parliament in the last parliamentary session, enables an immediate delay in the privatisation plans is that the the Government to proceed with the sell-off of the Government have failed to deliver on that promise. Its 497-year-old postal service. concern is that post offices remain highly dependent on In January 2012, during the passage of the 2011 Bill, Royal Mail transactions. It says that both post offices I secured a debate on the privatisation of Royal Mail and a stand-alone Post Office Ltd would have a highly that focused on the impact that privatisation might have uncertain future should privatisation of Royal Mail go on the post office network. ahead.

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I am Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend sure that, later on, my hon. Friend will touch on the is making an excellent speech. Integral to the whole matter of the remote areas of this country, such as postal and Royal Mail industry is the cross-subsidy, Cornwall, Devon and the isles in Scotland. Under the which is justified because the industry is, at least in part, proposals, many people will not get regular mail and a public service; it is not just a commercial service. Does will therefore feel cut off, especially when it comes to she agree that if it is a public service and there is receiving giro cheques and other such things and cross-subsidy, it does not fit with the private sector? communicating with their families. Katy Clark: I do indeed agree with my hon. Friend. Katy Clark: As my hon. Friend will be aware, I represent a constituency which has, as well as many Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): May I add an deprived areas, rural and island communities. I am additional factor? My hon. Friend and I are on the aware of the concern in such areas over the implications Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, and last of privatisation should it go ahead. week, we took evidence from Royal Mail on the impact 37WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 38WH of the independence referendum, which is due to take Mr Weir: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and place after the timetable for privatisation. The representative she is quite right that some post offices are still closing. was unable to provide any scenario planning by Royal However, many other post offices are suffering from Mail should the referendum result be a positive one for having to offer reduced services, because they are being independence, or to tell us what the consequences would moved on to the Post Office Local model, and in some be for Royal Mail. Does she not agree that that was cases the Post Office is approaching local postmasters utterly astonishing? and asking them if they want to change or retire and consequently downgrading the service. Katy Clark: I thank my hon. Friend, who serves with me on the BIS Committee. I was also astonished by that Katy Clark: The hon. Gentleman puts his point well. fact. There are specific issues for Scotland, given its I will now move on to discuss some of the issues relating demographics and its large rural areas. My fear is that if to Royal Mail itself, because I think that we have fully Royal Mail was allowed to be privatised, the consequences explored some of the challenges that the post office in Scotland would be particularly harsh. service will face if this privatisation goes ahead. Since the legislation was passed, the Government Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): My hon. have taken a considerable number of steps to prepare Friend has been generous with her time. I agree with the Royal Mail for privatisation. Royal Mail Holdings Ltd, points that were made earlier about the separation and as it is now known, is currently a 100% publicly owned atomisation of the whole post office network between UK-wide company, which was established as a sister post offices and mail delivery. Is she aware that those of company to the Post Office. This restructuring took us who are fighting to defend our post offices, such as place as part of the preparation for privatisation. A the one in the Holloway road in my constituency, are legal framework has been created that makes Royal told that the solution is to hand it over to a supermarket, Mail responsible for the collection, sorting and delivery get rid of the staff and bring in staff on lower wages of letters and parcels under a universal service obligation. who will share what is already a very busy post office The Government have indicated that they intend to sell with the supermarket. The proposals are nonsense and shares in Royal Mail in the financial year 2013-14. are claiming all kinds of losses that I do not think exist Indeed, in a written statement in April, the Minister to justify privatisation of a valuable public service. said that the Government would proceed with the sale of shares at what he called a fair commercial price. Katy Clark: My hon. Friend clearly expresses the risks that exist in city as well as rural areas. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Before I move on to the next part of my speech, I call Friend for giving way, and I congratulate her on securing on the Minister to outline what work has been done to this debate. Earlier, she made a compelling case about date to provide more Government work to the post who stands to lose from the Government’s sell-off of office network and to say what work is in progress and Royal Mail, but I am pleased that she has turned her will be completed prior to privatisation going ahead. attention to who stands to gain from it. Does she share my concern that the Government are refusing to answer Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. However, South (Ian Murray) about the involvement of Goldman will she not acknowledge that under the previous Sachs and UBS, and that—despite repeated requests Government many post offices were closed with inadequate under the Freedom of Information Act—they will not consultation? In my constituency, we saw several closures. reveal the fees that Goldman Sachs and UBS stand to At least under this Government there has been an end make from the sale of Royal Mail? to those closures. Also, contrary to what the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, in Katy Clark: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for my constituency we are working with some very good that intervention. Indeed, that was one of the questions supermarkets to bring back a post office counter service that I was going to ask the Minister, and she has saved that will deliver 95% of what a traditional post office me from putting it to the Minister in my speech. I very would have delivered, and surely that is a benefit. much hope that he will address that issue when he responds to this debate. Katy Clark: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention. Of course, I served with her on the BIS In the Minister’s letter to all MPs dated 17 May, Committee for a considerable period. Clearly, she is which enclosed a copy of a speech that he had made to making a party political intervention. Unfortunately, the Policy Exchange, he stated that the Government’s we are still seeing post offices closing as a result of the policy was not ideological and a number of assurances vulnerable situation that they are in, and we must not be were given to MPs. It would be useful if he could complacent. We need to ensure that we put in place a provide the House today with a great deal more information framework whereby the Post Office is able to survive about what the Government plan to do and how many and our mail services can operate in such a way that shares they will sell off. they have a long-term future. Royal Mail is unique in the UK postal market in that it is the only universal service provider. The 2011 Act Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP) rose— has enabled a regulatory framework to be created, so that persons are automatically entitled to provide postal Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con) rose— services provided that they notify Ofcom and comply with the conditions set by that organisation. This is a Katy Clark: I will take one more intervention, from serious threat to Royal Mail, as competitors are now the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir). entering the end-to-end market. 39WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 40WH

Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Katy Clark: The Government claim that Ofcom will (Lab): I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving regulate entrants into the postal services market, but way and I congratulate her on securing this very important there has been no attempt to prevent TNT cherry-picking debate. I am sorry that I missed the early part of her in this way or to regulate the use of zero-hours contracts speech. Does she agree that the current approach is really and other poor contractual conditions. about privatising profitability but nationalising debt—in other words, corporatism? Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): I congratulate Katy Clark: I agree with my right hon. Friend. Indeed, my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. the profits currently being made by Royal Mail have Does she agree that probably the first thing that the already been highlighted in an earlier intervention. private sector would cut from the Royal Mail service is Many MPs will be very aware of some of Royal our unique Saturday delivery? Mail’s competitors, such as TNT, which for many years have had a role in the postal market through what have Katy Clark: I agree with my hon. Friend that that is been called downstream access contracts. Of course, indeed something that many people are fearful of. many MPs will be aware of that from their annual visits Frankly, I say to the Minister that it is completely to post offices at Christmas, where they will have heard unacceptable to proceed to develop our postal services of the frustration of those who work in sorting offices in this country in the way that TNT is operating at this at having to deliver items for TNT and other organisations time. We all know from our own experiences that if we for what is called “the last mile” or so, and at a financial allow sectors to offer poor conditions and poverty pay loss to Royal Mail. There is a very strong view that this then it is the state and society as a whole that end up practice is unfair and that it is unreasonable to expect paying the price by subsidising bad employers. If the Royal Mail to carry out that work at such a loss-making Minister is saying that his policy is not ideological, rate. My experience of meeting delivery staff working surely he must accept that allowing operators to come for Royal Mail is that they have a very high level of into the market in this way is highly damaging, both to public service ethos and wish to see the highest possible the universal service obligation and to the public sector standards in service to the public. There was real frustration employer, which takes people on with better terms and that Royal Mail was being forced to operate with its conditions of employment. This cherry-picking of work hands tied behind its back in this way. is undermining the Royal Mail service and the universal Now, however, TNT is also being allowed into the service obligation. end-to-end market. TNT has set up a delivery service in If a privatised Royal Mail were to operate in a similar west and central London, and it recently announced the way, which we can only presume it would given that its extension of that service to south-west London. Of main motive as a private company would be to maximise course, TNT is able to win business because it can profits for its shareholders, then we can only expect it to choose where, when and what to deliver, without the try to cherry-pick, given that it has to compete with the quality of service standards and by undercutting the TNTs of this world. This is incredibly bad news for our jobs, pay and conditions of other postal workers. mail service. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, and I hope that Mr Jim Cunningham: I congratulate my hon. Friend she will get some response from the Minister. However, on securing this debate. Another thing to consider is the I must say to her that it is not only in rural areas that we pension fund and its future, particularly regarding effects are concerned about the loss of what is the universal on Royal Mail employees. A reasonable pension fund standard; it is also in urban areas. We could be facing will be a magnet for a lot of asset strippers. the prospect of just one or two deliveries a week—far fewer deliveries than at the moment under the present Katy Clark: The fact that the Government have taken certainties that we have. over responsibility for the pension fund has made Royal Katy Clark: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Mail a far more attractive prospect to anyone who It may well be possible for TNT to provide a service wants to buy shares. I believe that that was why the by undercutting in places such as London. However, it Government decided to go ahead in that way. is highly unlikely that they would ever be able, or In the run-up to privatisation, price controls have willing, to provide a similar service in areas such as been removed from the cost of stamps. The cost of North Ayrshire and Arran, or indeed in many other first-class stamps increased from 46p to 60p in April parts of the country. The TNT model of competition 2012, and second-class stamps have gone up 36p to 50p, means cutting costs at the expense of decent jobs. TNT although there is a 55p cap on the cost of those. The employs staff on zero-hours contracts at below-living Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, of which I wage standards. In London, I understand that TNT am a member, expressed concern, in our report on pays £7.10 per hour, which is £1.45 below the living stamp prices, about the impact that this will have on wage. I am also advised that TNT over-hire staff to vulnerable customers. ensure that there are more than enough people to do the job every day, so that each day workers on zero-hours On 29 May, the Government announced the appointment contracts are turned away. of advisers to the Government for the sale of Royal Mail. We understand that they are working on a flotation Kelvin Hopkins: On this question of TNT and other with a value close to £3 billion. This will be the largest private deliverers, they openly admit that what they privatisation in the UK since the railways in the 1980s. provide themselves is the local deliveries, which are However, the Government have not specified what the cheap, and anything that is long-distance they throw to form of that sale will be, whether an initial public the Royal Mail. offering or a sale to private equity, although they have 41WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 42WH said that an initial public offering is their preference. Any revenue from the privatisation would go to the Will the Minister give an update to the House on the Treasury, not the company. If the Government believe Government’s thinking on this aspect? that Royal Mail will be strong enough to borrow in the The Minister took the unusual step of saying that private sector, why do they not believe it will be strong Royal Mail may be sold to a foreign buyer if the enough to borrow in public hands? Network Rail, for communication workers continue with their campaign example, is to all intents a public company, but it has against privatisation. Can the Minister say when a borrowed more than £30 billion from private markets. decision will be taken as to what the form of a sale will This borrowing does not count towards public debt. be? I have asked the Government today to confirm how As my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa many shares they intend to sell off. For example, should Nandy) highlighted, there has been a great deal of only 50% of the shares be sold, does the Minister concern about the costs associated with privatisation, believe that Royal Mail could borrow from the private which are likely to be huge. Barclays, Bank of America sector, or does he believe that all the shares need to be Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs and UBS have been sold off to do that? employed to work on the sale. It is believed that the The service to the public is severely put at risk by a banks alone will receive £30 million in fees. No detail privatised Royal Mail. No doubt, the Minster in response has been provided to the House. Will the Minister will explain the protections of the inter-business agreement outline in detail all costs that will be incurred by the between Royal Mail and the Post Office. However, he taxpayer in the process of this privatisation, and undertake will also be aware that there are few safeguards to to ensure that all costings are put into the public domain? ensure that that agreement is not watered down significantly a few years down the road. The Government may say Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I congratulate that this proposed privatisation is not ideological, but my hon. Friend on securing this debate. She said that given the risks of proceeding down this path, surely the the Minister said that Royal Mail could end up being Minister must accept that it cannot be in the interests of sold to foreign companies. Is not that the case, because the public for this privatisation to take place at this as we have seen with railway privatisation this week, time. 64% of what was British Rail is now owned by foreign I ask the Government to answer a number of questions. companies? Does the Minister, and does my hon. Friend, Will they explain whether the legal requirement for the think that the public in this country are aware that our provision of universal service is a UK-wide obligation Royal Mail could be owned by foreign companies? or could it be met in Scotland, Wales or Northern Katy Clark: My hon. Friend is well aware that many Ireland alone? How frequently will Ofcom, the regulator, parts of the public sector that have been taken into be required to carry out a review of the universal service private hands have ended up being owned by both requirement, to ensure it reflects the reasonable needs private people abroad and by foreign countries. That is of postal service users? Will Ofcom be required to seek not in the public interest. the Minister’s approval before it can carry out a review of the universal service requirement? Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I apologise Will prospective purchasers be allowed to divest Royal because other business in the House detained me, although Mail of its international parcels business, General Logistics I know that my hon. Friend’s speech will have been Systems? Will Royal Mail purchasers be allowed to excellent so far. I congratulate her on securing this divest the business of the postcode address file? What debate. Does she agree that there is also quite a strong steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the universal possibility—indeed, a probability—that because of Royal service is protected following privatisation? What steps Mail’s land assets and buildings, often in central locations are the Government taking now to publish the terms of in our cities, we could end up seeing the complete the sale of Royal Mail and how they intend to proceed, dismantling of what we currently know as the Royal so that Parliament can give proper scrutiny to what is Mail, with bits being sold off, left, right and centre? going to happen in the next few months?

Katy Clark: My hon. Friend highlights a real threat. Philip Davies (in the Chair): At least seven hon. The original Hooper report in 2008 identified a number Members wish to catch my eye. I intend to go to the of issues with Royal Mail that needed to be addressed, shadow Minister no later than 3.40 pm. I shall not many of which have now been dealt with. We have impose a formal time limit at the moment. I ask hon. already heard that the Government have taken over the Members to be considerate to each other, which will pensions deficit and that regulation has been put in mean about five minutes each, as a guideline. If they place. The Government’s case now seems to be based on can keep to that, that will help everyone get a fair crack the need for capital. However, Royal Mail is doing well of the whip. in the public sector and, contrary to the Government’s claim, there does not seem to be any good reason why 2.59 pm Royal Mail should not be able to borrow the capital it needs to invest, while remaining in the public sector. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): It is a pleasure We have heard that Royal Mail’s operating profits to serve under your stewardship, Mr Davies. I congratulate increased from £152 million in 2012 to £403 million the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy in the last year. The state aid approval that enabled Clark) on securing this important debate. the Government to take on the pension deficit also As the hon. Lady says, Royal Mail is an essential part gives them authority to write off almost £1 billion of of Britain’s social and economic fabric. One of the Royal Mail’s debt, as £1.1 billion was allowed and only UK’s largest companies, it has more than 150,000 employees £150 million has been used so far. and a turnover approaching £9 billion. In 2012, research 43WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 44WH

[Caroline Dinenage] outlined? It is in the public domain that Royal Mail is earning a significant profit, which should continue to be from the Centre for Economics and Business Research the case. found that, in terms of Royal Mail’s economic footprint, its core UK business ranks as the eighth largest organisation Caroline Dinenage: The hon. Gentleman makes an in the UK. It contributes nearly 0.5% to the UK’s total excellent point, but for any business to continue, it GDP, rising to 0.7% when its wider economic impacts cannot just look at what it is doing now; it must are included. That means that, for every £1 Royal Mail consider future challenges. As we have already heard, pays in wages, an additional 57p is generated elsewhere the self-styled rivals to Royal Mail offer daily challenges, in the economy; it is a massive organisation by anyone’s and any company with long-term aspirations must be standards, and one that is operating in a fast-moving able to innovate, invest and grow in the future. That is and ever-changing marketplace. Like any business of the problem. At the moment, Royal Mail is competing that scale, the key to Royal Mail’s future success is for scarce public capital against other priorities such as access to the flexible capital that it needs to innovate schools and hospitals. Unless Royal Mail can access and invest. equity markets, every £1 that it borrows is another My first real involvement with Royal Mail came back £1 on the national debt. in the ’90s, when I was running my own small business. In the days before e-mail, as I am sure everyone recalls, Robert Flello: I am listening carefully to the hon. we had a daily collection for franked mail, through Lady, but I do not recognise some of the things she is which we sent out all our mailshots, quotes, artwork talking about. From my experience, the work force in and invoices, as well as the products that we manufactured. Stoke-on-Trent have gone through incredible change Now, all those things, other than the products themselves, and have adapted to new systems. Indeed, they are so are sent electronically. My business, like many others, efficient that I sometimes wonder how on earth our has seen a massive fall in its use of the post. Conversely, postal workers manage to do some of the things they of course, there are other small businesses across the are being asked to do. There is new equipment and new UK for which the internet has been the catalyst for a vans. There has been huge investment, and the work massive increase in their use of Royal Mail, with the force have adapted incredibly to very stringent business growth of online shopping, eBay and mail order. standards. I really do not recognise the picture that she is painting when I see for myself what is happening in On average, the spend on post by small businesses is places such as Stoke-on-Trent. quite low—just £9 a month for the average micro-business. Royal Mail has always kept the needs of business customers at its heart, as far as I can tell. Prices of franking Caroline Dinenage: I am sure Stoke-on-Trent is a services used by businesses have lagged behind inflation fabulous paragon of what our wonderful mail services for many years and continue to do so. Franking customers do—as is Gosport, I hasten to add. I do not think benefit from good prices and significant discounts, but anyone today is in any way casting aspersions on either even so, as the hon. Lady said, the marketplace is the service or the quality that Royal Mail delivers; we increasingly competitive. Many large businesses, such as are talking about how to ensure that Royal Mail is able banks and utility companies, already employ one of to continue doing that in the long term when we are Royal Mail’s rivals, such as TNT and UK Mail, to facing other challenges to the public purse. Clearly, collect bulk mail. According to its website, UK Mail is adding further to the national debt would not be responsible the UK’s self-styled leading alternative mail service in the current environment, especially when Royal Mail provider and claims to handle more than 2 billion letters can run on a fully commercial basis and already has the per annum and to support more than 1,000 businesses. capacity to be profitable, as we have heard. To survive in the face of such competition, Royal Mail Royal Mail has the highest service specification of needs flexibility to act in the most businesslike way any major European universal postal service: 93% of possible. first-class mail is delivered the next working day and 99.9% of delivery routes are completed each day. But I I was also on the Business, Innovation and Skills argue that the quality of service framework that applies Committee’s visit to Glasgow, which the hon. Member to Royal Mail under public ownership would continue for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) mentioned a moment to apply under private ownership. We talk about private ago, and I was struck by how unbusinesslike the Royal businesses being interested only in shareholder profit, Mail’s spokesperson was in his approach to potential but having run a private business for more than 20 Scottish independence. I found that shocking. Royal years, we are also very keen on quality of service and Mail must act in a more businesslike way, and it needs maintaining our customers, which must be taken into to improve its efficiency to invest and innovate, which consideration. means that it needs access to the capital that other large companies enjoy so that it is sustainable over the long Leading postal operators that provide universal postal term. services in other European countries have moved into the private sector and been successful. The Austrian postal service and Deutsche Post, for example, have Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): delivered consistently high mail profitability since flotation, The hon. Lady is accurately outlining the change in the and Deutsche Post is perceived as being in the vanguard business climate in how often small businesses use the of digital transition. Furthermore, levels of service post, but she is also outlining Royal Mail’s need to be have remained consistently high. In 2012, for example, adaptable. Does she understand that, as we have already the proportion of letters delivered the next day in Germany heard, Royal Mail’s profit in the past 18 months has and Austria was 95%, compared with the 93% regulatory increased considerably in the face of all that she has just target in the UK. Those and other international examples 45WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 46WH show private sector investment delivering competitive, this financial year, while markets are still quite shaky, profitable postal frameworks without necessarily rather than waiting until the time is right, to ensure that compromising on service levels. the best value can be achieved for taxpayers? If Royal The Government say that their overarching objective Mail is sold off in the next few months, what guarantees is to safeguard the one-price-goes-anywhere, six-days-a-week do we have that that would represent a good deal for the universal service, to deliver taxpayers value for money country? I know there is a difference between rail franchising and to deliver customers the quality of service that they and a flotation, but what guarantees will we have that are used to. The best way to safeguard the universal the taxpayer will not be called on to foot the bill for service for future generations is to combine the best of private failure, if it comes to that, as happened with the both the public sector and the private sector and to give east coast line? Royal Mail the independence, flexibility and, above all, It should not be forgotten that, in pressing ahead, access to the investment it needs to face future challenges. Ministers are not only forgoing the decades of returns that could be realised, but undermining the job security of more than 100,000 postal workers. They are also 3.7 pm putting at risk the future of a service that millions of Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland people rely on, despite having no electoral mandate to West) (Lab): I start by declaring an interest: I am proud do so. As always, a Tory Government are putting private to say that I am a member of the Communication profits before people. Workers Union, and I am also a member of the My constituents want their Royal Mail to continue to Communication Workers Union all-party parliamentary represent their monarch, not to operate in the interests group. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for of overseas royal families as part of their investment North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark), who chairs portfolios. They also want their Royal Mail’s directors that group, on securing this timely and important debate to concentrate on improving services, not the bank and on her passionate opening speech. balances of shareholders, which they would have a duty Of course, this debate is timely in that it closely to do. Finally, they want their Royal Mail to concentrate follows the result of the ballot held last week. The result on maintaining local delivery offices and on keeping should embarrass the Government, as 96% of postal services affordable because of the social benefit they staff rejected their plans, despite the cash bribes that bring, not on stripping assets to satisfy the demands of Ministers said postal staff would receive. That is a institutional investors. I believe that the Minister’s reminder to the Government that principles cannot be constituents also want that and that he does too, if his privatised, which I know is not something many Tory infamous letter to his constituents represents his personal MPs understand. For them, privatisation is a panacea view. to every problem, whether or not the problem is even The legislation may be on the statute book, but that genuine. I say that because this debate strikes more than does not mean that we have to rush into using it; I a passing resemblance to the debate on the privatisation would rather that we did not use it at all. Let us at least of the east coast main line, with which I will draw some wait until we can be sure that using it will bring real parallels to make my points even stronger. benefits to Royal Mail and the country as a whole. Just as with the east coast main line, the Government want to privatise a key national asset against the wishes 3.12 pm of the vast majority of stakeholders, and just as with the east coast main line, the desire to privatise clearly Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): It is a pleasure to owes more to dogma than to the bottom line. The east serve under you, Mr Davies. I would like to start by coast main line has flourished under public control paying tribute to the Post Office and Royal Mail for the since the collapse of the private operator and has generated hundreds of years of service they have dedicated to hundreds of millions of pounds in returns to the Treasury the nation. In particular, I would like to pay tribute to while requiring little subsidy and ploughing tens of the sorting office in Stourbridge. I visited the delivery millions of pounds from the remaining profits into office early one morning last summer, and it was an service improvements. Similarly, last month we saw that eye-opener to see the incredible hard work, commitment, Royal Mail profits are also showing hefty improvements organisation and efficiency that characterised it. I then —up to £324 million—as a result of modernisation and went with a postman on his delivery round, which the increasingly buoyant internet sales market. Royal topped off the visit for me; indeed, it was one of the Mail has made a total of more than £0.5 billion over the most rewarding visits in my constituency calendar last past two financial years. year. The east coast main line and Royal Mail are not Mention has been made of the price of stamps, and I failing monoliths or drains on public resources; they are was on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee valued services that can and should provide an ongoing at the time the proposal was made to raise the price of contribution to the public purse. Yes, we should always first-class stamps to 60p. The Committee was concerned look for them to be better, but private does not necessarily about that proposal, and I shared that concern, but if mean better and in many cases may well mean worse. In we are to guarantee a universal six-day-a-week collection both cases, the fear is that the Government are opting and next-day delivery service, 60p is a fair price, and a for a short-term, one-off cash boost ahead of the favourable comparison can be made with other items election, rather than retaining assets that can and should we might purchase for a similar sum, such as daily generate ongoing returns to the public purse for years newspapers. and decades to come. I am sure the Minister will say The need for part-privatisation was accepted under the that that is not the case. Why, then, do the Government previous Government. Richard Hooper was appointed plan to pursue the sale of shares in Royal Mail during back in 2008 to conduct an independent review of Royal 47WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 48WH

[Margot James] There is, therefore, great promise for the future. I look forward to Royal Mail staff having the opportunity to Mail’s future, and his report under the previous Government take a stake in their business and the taxpayer having a made the case for part-privatising the Royal Mail service fairer solution in terms of an ongoing commitment in to guarantee its future sustainability. The former Deputy the future. Prime Minister, Lord Mandelson, was passionate about going ahead with part-privatisation at that point, firmly believing that Royal Mail was not sustainable in the 3.18 pm form it existed in at that time. The current Government Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to appear are merely taking on that unfinished business so that under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Davies. I Royal Mail can, as my hon. Friend the Member for congratulate the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) said, seek private capital Arran (Katy Clark), who made a fine speech in introducing on the stock market. We can surely all agree that we do this important debate. not want to add in any way, shape or form to the I served on the Committee that considered what is country’s debt if that can be avoided. If private capital now the Postal Services Act 2011. I opposed privatisation can enable the Post Office and Royal Mail to innovate at the time; nothing that has happened since has persuaded to meet the challenges of the future, that is surely to be me to do otherwise, and I still strongly oppose privatisation. preferred to increasing the debt burden on the taxpayer. Areas such as mine have seen major changes in postal On the opportunities for staff, I do not accept that services, with reductions in mail collections and ever the 10% employee ownership proposal is a bribe. I am later deliveries. I live in a town, but I do not now get my impressed by certain models of capitalism—notably the mail until about 1 pm; in rural parts of my constituency, John Lewis Partnership, which is a model many people it is much later. For me, it is a minor inconvenience, but in the Government respect. Lessons can be learned deliveries are crucial for many businesses in my constituency. from that way of doing business. Members of the It is the business side of the matter that I want to important staff stakeholder community have an interest comment on. Royal Mail is not a drag on public spending, in the business for which they work. I think that model but an important economic driver, especially in rural will come to be appreciated with the passage of time. areas. In his evidence to the Committee that considered the Postal Services Act 2011, Richard Hooper quoted Mr Anderson: Does the hon. Lady accept, though, the point that I made to him at the outset of his 2008 that there has been a full democratic ballot of the work investigation of Royal Mail, during the Labour force, with a 74% turnout, which is probably more than Government. I observed that the universal service is for any of us at the last general election, and 96% of the crucial to businesses in rural areas, and have argued that people balloted said they did not want to get involved point ever since. It colours my whole attitude to the with these plans? Surely, the Government should listen issue; the service is crucial to rural areas throughout the to them; the people we expect to deliver the service do UK. not want to go down the road the Government are suggesting. Mr Hooper made a point about a young lady with a mobile phone and laptop, and wondered why she would need anyone’s physical address. Perhaps she has now Margot James: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his moved on to a smartphone, and I empathise with that intervention. No doubt there will be many pressures view, because young people are no different in Angus and issues on the minds of people who work in the Post from anywhere else. They use e-mail and texts. Mr Office and the Royal Mail, and they came to their Hooper made the point that only about 10% of mail is conclusion, although I do not know what the precise private letters, and about 8% of that is sent around wording of the question in the consultation was. Christmas—it is mainly cards. That is a sobering fact, I was talking about what would happen in the fullness and I suspect that things have deteriorated since then. It of time. I think most employees who get a stake in the seemed to me that there were fewer Christmas cards business for which they work—especially one with a about last year. Perhaps that was because of the rising good future, such as Royal Mail, which has a rosy cost of postage, or perhaps I am simply less popular—I future now that the Government have taken its huge do not know. The youngster with the phone and laptop pension obligations to one side—would welcome such may never feel the need to write a letter, but I am almost participation. certain that if they live in a rural area they will use the I am impressed by the protections that the Government internet to order books, CDs or DVDs, even though are putting in place. Royal Mail will still be regulated by those may be under threat from digital streaming, and, Ofcom. There is the second-class postage cap. The VAT increasingly, fashionable clothing—not a problem I have. exemption will remain. The service will remain free for There are very few outlets for entertainment and fashion blind people and those serving in the forces. There is items in rural areas now. also a commitment on the Post Office side to maintain It is sobering that when last Christmas I, like many 11,500 branches. As I said—I am sorry the hon. Member others, visited my local sorting office, I was struck by for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) thought the fact that it was stacked with packages from Amazon this was a party political point—I have seen with my and similar online retailers. That is where the great own eyes in my constituency what has happened at growth in mail delivery is happening. The important several post offices. Only last Friday, I opened a branch point for areas such as mine is that the process works that had been upgraded and renovated. We are also both ways. Not only do people in rural areas use the keen to get a Post Office Counters local service back in post to get items delivered; crucially, small and medium-sized an area that had its post office taken away a couple of businesses in those communities use Royal Mail to get years ago, and we are close to achieving that. their products out. In many cases they do not have an 49WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 50WH alternative. The other private companies do not offer a Royal Mail should be seen as part of our national service in many parts of rural Scotland. The universal infrastructure—an economic driver, not a drain on the service is crucial to those businesses, and it is crucial to public finances. It should remain in public ownership. those of us who hope that businesses will be created and sustained in rural areas. 3.25 pm The hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I congratulate said that the regulations under the Bill were sufficient to my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and enable a universal service obligation to be maintained. I Arran (Katy Clark) on obtaining this debate on a am afraid I do not accept that. There are many aspects serious matter. of the Bill that cause me great concern. That is nothing It would be a nice change if in this place we listened new, because under the previous system Royal Mail to the people who know: the people who deliver a investigated the introduction of a zonal pricing system. service. The service we are talking about has been I must ask what protection the customer really has. delivered for 497 years, and I reiterate what my hon. Ofcom has already removed price caps from all Royal Friend said: what is happening is bribing people with Mail products, apart from the second-class universal public money—asking them to take shares in an mail service, with the result that that is now the only organisation. As I said in an intervention on the hon. truly universal service. First-class mail can be priced out Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), 96% of the of the reach of many, and with the price of a first-class members of the union who were balloted said, on a 74% stamp already 60p—one of the highest in Europe—how turnout, that they did not want that. Even Boris Johnson, many people or, crucially, small businesses will send who constantly lectures the unions about ballot thresholds, first-class mail? could hardly argue against those sorts of figures. The Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland has I have no doubt that people will say, “It’s self-interest. noted a substantial increase in the small packages rate, They want to remain where they are,” but the bosses of which is affecting many small businesses in rural areas Royal Mail said—pigs may fly one day—that the terms of Scotland; and things could get worse. There is nothing and conditions of the workers will not be affected; so in the 2011 Act to prevent Royal Mail or a private they cannot be accused of self-interest on that point. owner from introducing zonal pricing. I took that point Perhaps their self-interest is based on their pride and up with Ofcom, which confirmed in a letter to me: faith in the service. They believe that Royal Mail is not “Ofcom does not have any powers to restrict Royal Mail from just a brand to be bought and sold in the marketplace; introducing this pricing variation related to user location, as the they believe in the principles and ethos of public service. Postal Services Act 2011 limits our regulatory powers to universal services and access”. So do many other public service workers. In the past 25-plus years the House has ignored their voices. We That is from the horse’s mouth—from the regulator have always known better. For example, in 1992 the that oversees the service. There is nothing to stop such a public services trade unions argued against the private variation in price being introduced now, never mind finance initiative. Hardly anyone in the House today after the service falls into the hands of a private operator. would speak in favour of PFI as a wonderful success, The Government have talked about an initial public but for 25 years when the trade unions said anything the offering, but they have not ruled out a sale to one of the response was, “Ignore them—they are just looking after major international companies, such as TNT and Deutsche their members.” They were right when they said it Post. The Communication Workers Union in its document would not work: it has not worked. in relation to the Bill made the views of some of those Likewise, members of the National Union of companies about the universal service very clear: they Mineworkers said, “If you close the mines in this country amount to an intention to get rid of it if they can, and privatise them, what will you end up with?” We can because they consider it to be an anchor on their see what we ended up with: there are three coal mines business. left in this country; we import 50 million tonnes of coal Ministers have previously argued that the universal from some of the least secure regimes in the world; and service is a benefit to Royal Mail, as it is the only carrier the reality is that the lights of this country may go out. that guarantees a delivery to every address. However, Similarly there was the “Tell Sid” debacle: “Tell Sid” to that ceases to be true when other companies take on the have shares, and we will transfer all the risk to the most profitable routes. A couple of months back I met a private utilities. What did we end up with? The voice of man delivering mail on the stairs of the block of flats the work force was ignored, and the utilities sector is where I live in London. He was wearing a postal uniform, not fit for purpose. There is a £200 billion bill—we will but not a Royal Mail one: it was a TNT uniform. have to find that to make sure we can power our Ofcom has already, as the hon. Member for North country for the future—and a pricing regime that has Ayrshire and Arran said, sanctioned trials in areas of pushed millions of people into fuel poverty. London for other companies to run an end-to-end Exactly the same process that is now being suggested service. Quite how that fits in with attempts to sell for Royal Mail was carried out in the deregulation of Royal Mail to such companies I am not sure, but it is a bus services. In my part of the world we had something sure sign of the huge pressures on the USO that will called Busways. We were told clearly, “Sell the shares to come with privatisation. You can bet the mortgage on the work force—it will be their company.”What happened? the fact that they might do it in London, but they will In a few short months there was a management buy-out. not do it in rural Scotland. Four people walked away with millions of pounds; the I remind hon. Members that section 43 of the 2011 people on the ground were left with worse terms and Act allows Ofcom to review the USO and recommend, conditions, working bad shifts with lower numbers, a among other things, a review of the minimum requirements poorer service for the public, a worse deal for the work —which amounts to cuts in what the USO must deliver. force, and huge hikes for those using the service. 51WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 52WH

[Mr David Anderson] when has been dictated by what is politically expedient for the Tories and the coalition in the short term, not It is not just on the privatisation agenda that the voice what is best for the country. For the record, Royal Mail of the workers has been ignored. When the Care Quality is making a profit. It is a profitable and efficient business. Commission was mooted, people in the health service Its operating profits were £403 million last year, up said it would not work; and of course they were ignored. from £105 million the year before. It is not a failing We saw what happened last week, but I will tell you business; it is a very successful one. what: I bet the two previous Health Secretaries—and probably the present one—wish they had paid a bit Looking back on what has happened since the more attention to the people who actually work in the Government argued for privatisation, the original Hooper service than they did to those who advised them. But report of 2008 identified a number of issues faced by our arrogance as the political élite is overwhelming. We Royal Mail. Many of those issues have been resolved, assume we know better than those who have dedicated notably the pension deficit and regulation, which leaves their lives to delivering a service to the people of this the Government’s case resting entirely on Royal Mail’s country. need to access capital. Royal Mail is doing well in the public sector, and it is my view, and I am sure that of I make a plea to the Minister to stop rubbishing the most people in the UK, that it is a public asset and voice of Royal Mail’s dedicated work force and accept should remain so. the fact that they have been flexible in recent years. They have accepted huge changes to their working I thank the Royal Mail work force, who have embraced practices, shown huge experience and commitment, engaged much change in the name of modernisation. They have much better with the modernisation programme and done everything that has been expected of them to turn delivered much better industrial relations than in the Royal Mail around, so turning it into the successful past. They might just know something that we in this business that it is today. I have visited the Royal Mail in place do not. I ask the Minister to listen to the voice of my constituency and been on a round with the men and the workers, and of the public. I am convinced that the women who do that fantastic job. people of this country do not know that this is being Contrary to the Government’s claim, there is no good done, and they will not support it if they are made reason why Royal Mail should not be able to borrow the aware of it. capital that it needs to invest, while remaining in the I look forward to the Minister’s response, particularly public sector. That would not be at the expense of to the pointed questions asked by my hon. Friend the public sector spending, and it would not need to count Member for North Ayrshire and Arran. I look forward towards Government debt. In 2008, the Hooper report with almost as much keenness to what the shadow identified five problems with Royal Mail that it argued Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh needed to be fixed: the pension deficit, the relationship South (Ian Murray), has to say, as I know that he is with the regulator, pricing, modernising performance committed to the agenda of not privatising Royal Mail. and industrial relations. The report made three proposals: that the Government 3.30 pm should take on the pension deficit, that the regulator Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve should be changed and that Royal Mail should be part under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate my privatised. On privatisation, the only remaining step hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran not implemented, the Hooper report argued that Royal (Katy Clark) on securing this important debate. Mail was trying to improve industrial relations and the quality of management, reduce political interference, The Government are pushing ahead with plans to introduce commercial and financial discipline and allow privatise Royal Mail and hope to do so within the access to private capital. On pensions, the Government 2013-14 financial year. Members have declared interests. took on the assets and liabilities of the pension scheme My interest is anti-privatisation. I am absolutely opposed in March 2012. Since then, Royal Mail’s annual pension to privatisation in any guise, for the right reasons. As spending has fallen by up to £300 million as a consequence. my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) mentioned, we only have to look at the coal industry, It is worth reminding the House what Communication which has been completely obliterated, and the electricity Workers Union employees were asked. The hon. Member industry, in which the big six companies make billions for Stourbridge (Margot James) said that she was not of pounds in profits, while millions of people head sure what was on the ballot paper. It said, “Do you toward record levels of fuel poverty. We only have to oppose the privatisation of Royal Mail?” Can it get any look at the privatisation of telecoms and of the railways, simpler than that? It was pretty simple and not ambiguous where fares are sky high and investment is completely in any way. The result was a 96% vote yes. The work lacking. Privatisation fails this country. The record is force are totally behind it, and rightly refused to be there to be seen. That is my declaration. We should stop bribed by the Government’s offer of shares or finance kidding people that privatisation is in the best interests to privatise Royal Mail. We cannot continue to allow of consumers—as though calling them consumers makes the likes of TNT and other companies that ignore good them feel more important. We should really call them industrial relations with the trade unions and the workers the general public. and that pay well below the living wage to undercut such a fabulous service as Royal Mail. The Government are desperate and seeking to generate as much finance as possible to get them out of the hole Thank you, Mr Davies, for allowing me to speak. Put that they created. Consequently, they are determined simply, the Labour party opposed the privatisation of to press ahead with the fire sale of Royal Mail, which Royal Mail while we were in government, and we continue is scheduled for this autumn. The decision to sell and to oppose it in opposition. 53WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 54WH

3.37 pm staff working together, in partnership with the trade Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure unions, to make the Royal Mail service the best it can to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate possibly be. It would be wrong of me not to mention my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and especially the Royal Mail staff in Edinburgh, who got Arran (Katy Clark) on securing this debate. I suppose the best performance stats in Scotland only last month, that I should declare an interest as the proud parent of so I say congratulations to them. a Royal Mail employee. As we have heard this afternoon, Royal Mail is a For me, this goes back to the 1980s, the last time a much treasured institution, with a universal service Conservative Government decided to go on a privatisation obligation covering all part of the country—whether binge. I saw it up close, personal and at first hand when north, south, east or west—for one uniform price. It I was an employee of British Telecom and the Conservative dates back to 1516, and I am sure that my hon. Friend Government at that time decided to sell it off, supposedly the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who mentioned to make it leaner and more competitive. I saw job losses, that, was there at the time. It touches all of us, whether closed depots and lost opportunities for a future generation through birthday or Christmas cards, letters to friends, to secure good employment in my neck of the woods. bank statements or the Liberal Democrats’ “We’re winning here” letters—given that, no wonder delivery volumes Like the last time, these sell-offs have been driven by a are dropping. Royal Mail also happily delivers my letters desperate need for money to plug a gap left by failing to the Minister, six days a week at one uniform price. It Government policies and to pay for the rising number is the last major publicly owned business, which is of unemployed. The current group of state-owned something that we should cherish and protect. businesses proposed for privatisation could fetch nearly Royal Mail of course has challenges. Letter volumes £9 billion, £3 billion of which would come from the sale are falling fast, as everyone turns to electronic of Royal Mail. The original rationale for privatising the communications. It has some way to go to complete the Royal Mail was that it was making a loss. We now know modernisation programme, to make itself the best it can that that is no longer true. Annual profits are up more possibly be. There is of course the risk of industrial than 60%, and figures show that the amount of mail action, given the industrial relations issues that we being sent has risen. heard about in the CWU survey just last week. The Royal Mail still needs investment. The coalition’s maintenance of the USO is of course expensive, and the policy does not make economic, political or social position of Royal Mail on delivering that USO is sense. Ministers are motivated by ideological blinkers compromised by the ability of other companies to come and the desire to make a quick buck, not by the long-term in and cherry-pick the most profitable end-to-end services. best interests of the taxpayer, the Royal Mail or the One of the critical things, which has not yet been public. Under privatisation, there will be no obligation mentioned, is that Royal Mail service standards are to deliver the 26 million letters a day that Royal Mail much higher than the standards of any of the businesses currently handles. Service will worsen, especially in coming in, which makes cherry-picking easier and, rural areas. obviously, a lot cheaper. Red pillar boxes are a symbol of Britain and give There has been a lot of talk about the Hooper report, people a connection to the past not only of the GPO including by the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot and the Royal Mail, but of their own community. There James). That report, however, if we analyse what has are no Government safeguards to prevent the organisation been done since, shows that the company can be viable from falling into foreign hands. Royal Mail is more than in the public sector. The issues raised by Hooper deserve a business; it is a service. To cite only one of the services a bit of attention. The pension fund assets have of provided, I can identify our posties, who we see every course gone into the public purse, so the public purse is day up and down the country. They do more than just now responsible for the liabilities. In essence, having just deliver mail, and they go in early to set out their walks nationalised the liabilities to the taxpayer, the Government and deliver their full mail sack; some of the private now propose to privatise the potential profits. The sector firms, however, after too much time into the day regulatory environment has improved, following the will take the mail back and not deliver the full amount. transfer of responsibilities to Ofcom, and we have seen Posties are the ones who we see in the community and that in the deregulation of pricing, with the exception of who are recognised as part of the community; they are second-class stamps; a lot of the profits over the past the ones who see that the curtains are still closed and year or 18 months have been directly attributable to that the milk is on the doorstep. They provide more freeing up Royal Mail from some of those industrial than a mail service; they are part of the community, strangleholds. which would not be the case under privatisation. Furthermore, industrial relations and quality of management have improved. We must pay tribute to the 3.40 pm management, the chief executive officer, Moya Greene, Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is great to and the CWU for again working in partnership to see you in the Chair again, Mr Davies. I pay tribute to ensure that industrial relations were improved and the my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and modernisation programme taken forward. That was not Arran (Katy Clark), who set out a compelling case for an easy task for anyone, but they have come through it keeping Royal Mail in the public sector. with aplomb, and the profits have helped. On the other I also pay tribute to the Royal Mail staff, who have side, the explosion of the parcel business, which was worked tirelessly alongside their management to create highlighted by the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), a leaner, fitter and more modern company. As we have has given a real opportunity for Royal Mail to become heard, the recent results, with profits in excess of £300 even more profitable. I am slightly disappointed that he million, are testament to not only the hard work of the did not tell us what the cost of a parcel or letter would staff, but the steely determination of management and be in an independent Scotland. 55WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 56WH

Mr Weir rose— the privatisation. Critically, the National Federation of SubPostmasters, which originally supported the Postal Ian Murray: I will not be taking an intervention, Services Act 2011 when it was going through the House, because I do not have much time, but perhaps on the said that it no longer supports the separation of the two next occasion that we debate Royal Mail, the hon. businesses and the privatisation of Royal Mail, because Gentleman might come prepared with some of that of the potential impact on the post office network. That information. includes the 10-year inter-business agreement and the The environment therefore has changed since the £360 million a year that goes into the Post Office by Hooper report in 2008. That is why we should allow having that inextricable link between the business and Royal Mail, under its new regulatory regime and its new the delivery units. The Minister needs to address that environment, the opportunity to thrive in the public and to let us know the impact on the post office network sector. of the privatisation of Royal Mail. What is the real purpose of privatising Royal Mail? If there is any doubt at all that the Minister does not First, ideology—there is an ideological thirst for privatisation believe the Countryside Alliance, the Bow Group, the in the Government—and, secondly, to plug a hole in late Baroness Thatcher, the CWU or Unite, why does he the Chancellor’s funding gap, because he is borrowing not believe himself? In February 2009, when in opposition, £245 billion more during this Parliament, owing to his he said clearly in a letter reported in the press: failed economic policy. The fire sale of Royal Mail is the “I certainly do not support the…plans for privatisation”, opportunity for him to plug that gap. with reference to Royal Mail. Even with the Hooper Let us analyse who is against the proposals. The late environment getting better, the Minister now says that Prime Minister, Baroness Thatcher, the architect of he is not against it. He might pop to his feet to say, ideological privatisation in the Conservative party, said “That is because we’re giving 10% of the shares to the that it would be a step too far. More recently, the Bow staff,” but if that is the justification for changing his Group, a right-wing think tank to which the Minister stand from being against privatisation to fully privatising might give much credence, said: Royal Mail, it is a weak argument. “It is likely to be hugely unpopular, prices will rise at a time The Government have also failed to address a number when people cannot afford it, an amenity that many communities of critical issues with regard to the justification for consider crucial will be removed, it will undermine the heritage of Royal Mail. The privatisation of Royal Mail is likely to move privatisation. On the timing of the sale, why now? I swiftly from a poisonous legacy for the Government now, to a claim that it is because the Chancellor needs the money poisonous legacy for the Conservative Party going forward”. in his Budget come April next year. I hope that the I would include the Liberals in that. Minister can dispel that myth. The hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) said that Royal Mail has Mr Tom Clarke: Will my hon. Friend give way? to compete with schools and hospitals and everyone else for public money. It does, but the future profits of Royal Ian Murray: I will not, if my right hon. Friend does Mail could be building schools and hospitals and every not mind, because I have only 10 minutes and I want to other piece of infrastructure that this country might put try to give the Minister an extra minute to respond to together. Public services are not always a drain on my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and resources; a profitable Royal Mail could contribute Arran. I apologise for not giving way. to the Government’s resources, to build schools and hospitals. In future, the privatisation of Royal Mail is likely to move swiftly from being a poisonous legacy for the There are unresolved competition issues and questions Government to being a poisonous legacy for the about what happens if the Royal Mail falls into trouble Conservative party.That will include the Liberal Democrats, in the regulated environment. The USO is expensive even though the Liberal Democrat manifesto was against and the most profitable parts could be cherry-picked by the privatisation of Royal Mail—in fact, the Deputy other end-to-end deliverers, so that it might become Prime Minister spoke against it not that long ago. unaffordable. What happens then? Does it revert back to the Government and the public purse, as happened We heard about the CWU consultative ballot this with the east coast rail line, which my hon. Friend week, which produced a clear result from 96% of the the Member for Washington and Sunderland West very staff whom the Minister wishes to bribe with 10% (Mrs Hodgson) mentioned, with the company handing of the shares. I hope that they are not shares for rights, back the keys? This is a huge issue, and there is an which is a whole other subject for debate. Before the impact on customers and the post office network. If all Minister jumps to his feet to say that the CWU ballot that is put together, the strongest compelling case is to had a low turnout, it was some 78%, but this is not just keep Royal Mail in the public sector, and that is what we about the posties. Unite, which represents a number of will fight to achieve. managers in Royal Mail, heard serious concerns expressed by management and senior management, who have also been saying that they have significant concerns about 3.50 pm privatisation. The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Concern about the rise in stamp prices has been and Skills (Michael Fallon): I, too, congratulate the hon. expressed by the Countryside Alliance, the National Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on Pensioners Convention and the Scottish Family Business securing this debate, and I thank hon. Members who Association, which are all becoming increasingly worried have contributed to it. It has been a good debate, and I about the pace of the privatisation. The cross-party welcome the opportunity to respond to the issues raised Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, which many and to explain why the Government intend to sell Members present serve on, was also against the speed of shares in Royal Mail in this financial year. 57WH Royal Mail25 JUNE 2013 Royal Mail 58WH

The Government’s overarching objective is to secure wrong and what everyone opposed, including me and the future of the universal postal service: the six-day-a-week most Labour MPs at the time, was of course their service at uniform, affordable prices that delivers throughout proposed implementation. the UK. The service is vital to our economy. The I will turn to some of the more detailed questions Government’s reforms go back to Richard Hooper’s that the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran independent review of the postal sector which was asked. She asked about the effect on the Post Office, commissioned by the Labour Government because the which is now a separate business. As my hon. Friend the volume of mail was falling. That review concluded that Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) said, we put there was a substantial threat to Royal Mail’s financial an end to the closure programme. I am looking forward stability and that the universal service was under threat. to re-opening the refurbished Otford post office on It recommended that action should be taken as a package Friday. It is winning a range of front-line service contracts to secure the universal postal service with responsibility from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the for postal regulation being transferred to Ofcom, the Skills Funding Agency, the Department for Work and Government tackling the historic pension deficit, and Pensions, the Border Agency and many others. Royal Mail entering into a strategic partnership with The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran one or more private sector companies to give it commercial asked me about the type of sale. We have not made a confidence, access to capital and corporate experience. decision on how much of Royal Mail to sell, nor what The Labour Government accepted those recommendations. form the sale should take. I assure hon. Members that In 2010, following an updated report by Richard when we decide, we will make a statement to Parliament Hooper that confirmed his initial findings, apart from and under the legislation we must lay a report to Parliament the need for a strategic partnership, the new Government at the same time. The hon. Lady asked about the fees introduced a Bill to enable implementation of the package involved. If there is an initial public offering, the fees of recommendations. Since the Postal Services Act 2011 will be set out in a prospectus. I assure her that we will received Royal Assent in June 2011, we have implemented be very careful to keep them as low as possible. two elements of that package by establishing Ofcom as The hon. Lady also asked whether the universal the regulator with stronger powers to protect the universal service provision is UK-wide, and the answer is yes. She service, and by taking on Royal Mail’s historic pension asked whether Ofcom can review the universal service deficit. By removing those major barriers, Royal Mail provision and throw it up into the air at any particular has begun its journey to long-term sustainability. It is point, and whether ministerial approval is required to now profitable, as hon. Members have said, and its do so. The answer is that Ofcom may review it at any overall financial position has improved. time, but cannot change it. Only the House can change the universal service provision— The challenge now is to maintain that positive momentum. We should not forget that in recent history the Royal Mail group has swung between profit and 3.55 pm loss. Royal Mail’s core UK letters and parcels business Sitting adjourned for Divisions in the House. suffered losses in five of the last 12 years. During that period, overall losses were around £1 billion and around 4.21 pm 60,000 jobs were lost, so resting on the current year’s On resuming— profitability is not enough. The core UK network made a margin of 3.9% in that financial year, which was an Michael Fallon: When I was interrupted, I was replying improvement, but it was well below international peers to the important question from the hon. Member for such as Deutsche Post and Austrian Post with a margin North Ayrshire and Arran on what triggers a review of of more than 8% and Belgium Post with a margin of the universal service requirement: could Ofcom do it at 17%. any time or does a review need ministerial permission A more profitable Royal Mail will be better able to and so on? The answer is that Ofcom can review user weather any future market weakness and, more importantly, needs at any time and it must carry out such a review will be able to take advantage of new opportunities. The before it can modify any part of the universal service company needs future access to private capital to be order, but it cannot modify the order in a way that able to continue its modernisation programme and to changes the minimum requirements. That can be done seize opportunities for growth such as the boom in only by Parliament amending the Postal Services Act on-line shopping. The final phase of our reforms and 2011, which gives all of us the protection we need, and implementation of the Hooper recommendations is the that protection continues irrespective of the ownership sale of Royal Mail shares, which will give Royal Mail of Royal Mail. future access to private capital. The hon. Lady asked about disposables. The directors of the company—a privately owned Royal Mail—must That is the way to put Royal Mail’s future on to a act in the best interests of the company. The Royal Mail long-term sustainable basis. It is consistent with is already clear that it sees the postal access file as an developments in Europe where privatised operators in integral part of the business. It is separately regulated Austria, Germany and Belgium have been profitable by Ofcom, and that separate regulation continues and continue to provide high quality services. Only last irrespective of the particulars of ownership. If I have week, there was a successful sale of shares in the Belgian missed any of her questions, I will write to her after the post operator, bpost. The Government’s decision to sell debate. shares in Royal Mail is not ideological. It is a practical, The Royal Mail is a business with a £9 billion turnover, logical and commercial decision, just as the Labour which employs more than 150,000 people, and of course, Government’s decision was in 2009. What they got a company of that size and importance to the British 59WH Royal Mail 25 JUNE 2013 60WH

[Michael Fallon] Mitochondrial Disease economy should have access to the flexible capital it needs: to continue to modernise; to become more efficient 4.25 pm and competitive; to innovate and invest; and to seize Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): opportunities presented by new markets, such as the It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, rapid growth of online shopping. Over the past years, Mr Davies. I am pleased to be able to lead a debate Royal Mail’s investment in the business has increased on this most important subject. I shall speak about from £555 million to £665 million. As I said earlier, mitochondrial disease, the devastation it causes and the Royal Mail is profitable, but its margins are still behind new techniques developed by Newcastle university to those of its competitors. Investment remains crucial if it prevent it. I declare an interest in that my father studied is to continue to improve margins and provide the medicine at Newcastle, so I am a natural champion of services that customers demand. that great university’s medical research and innovation. No responsible party would propose that in the current I am here primarily to champion not Newcastle university environment Royal Mail should have to compete for however, but the interests of my constituents struck scarce public capital against other services, such as down by mitochondrial disease, and indeed all those schools and hospitals. Royal Mail, run on a fully commercial who suffer from it. basis, has the capacity to be cash-generative, profitable The subject is technical and I will attempt to be clear and perfectly able to raise the capital it needs from the as possible in setting out the arguments. Mitochondria private sector. A sale of shares will also reduce the are found in every cell in the human body, except red possibility of any future government interference in the blood cells. They are the batteries generating energy for operations of the company. It is time for Government the cell. Mitochondria convert the energy of food molecules to step back from Royal Mail, to allow its management into the energy that powers the cell’s functions. About to focus wholeheartedly on growing the business and 200 children are born every year with a mitochondrial planning for the future. We will give Royal Mail the disease. Such diseases are passed from mothers to their commercial freedom it has needed for so long. children and are caused by faulty mitochondria. Like all DNA, the DNA in mitochondria can mutate and mothers can pass those mutations on to their children. Faulty mitochondria mean that the cells are unable to function normally and the diseases caused by them can have a devastating effect on families. The diseases tend to affect parts of the body that use a lot of energy, such as the brain, muscles, nerves, liver, kidney and heart, and vary widely in severity, from life-threatening to having few or no obvious symptoms. Symptoms vary, but can include poor growth, muscle weakness, tiredness, poor co-ordination, and sensory, respiratory or cognitive problems. There are no effective treatments available for serious mitochondrial disease. When the cells go wrong, it can result in serious conditions, including blindness, fatal heart failure, liver failure, learning disabilities and diabetes, and can lead to death in early infancy. Prevention is the only realistic option. In 2010, Newcastle university scientists, with funding from the Wellcome Trust, pioneered research into variations of in vitro fertilisation procedures that could prevent the transmission of the genetic mutations that cause these devastating disorders. The techniques use part of an egg donated by a healthy individual, to replace the faulty mitochondria of the affected mother. The intention is to give affected families a chance to have healthy children that are genetically related to them, but born free of mitochondrial disorders. Such techniques are not currently permitted in the UK, but legislation allows the Government to introduce secondary legislation that would allow the treatments to be used. Mitochondrial disease can blight families for generations, because, as I said, it is passed from the mother to child during pregnancy. The techniques could put a stop to it, by preventing the faulty mitochondria from being passed to the embryo. Mitochondrial disease affects about 6,000 adults in the UK. In my constituency, four families— Bumstead, Cass, Bland and Mahmood—suffer from mitochondrial disease. Although every effort is being made to help them, there is no cure. For example, Lily Cass, who is in her 70s now, has five brothers and three 61WH Mitochondrial Disease25 JUNE 2013 Mitochondrial Disease 62WH sisters, and one brother who died at 56. They are all of mitochondrial DNA would be passed on not only to affected in different ways by mitochondrial diseases, the resulting children, but to the descendants of any and some more severely than others. Some days, Lily girls born from the techniques, via their eggs. can hardly move due to lack of energy caused by her faulty mitochondria, which takes all her strength away. Dr Geoff Watts, who chaired the inquiry, said: She has four children, including a daughter, who is “We understand that some people concerned about the idea of likely to pass the disease on to her children. She worries germline therapies may fear that if such treatments for mitochondrial about that all the time. gene disorders were approved, a ‘slippery slope’ would be created towards comparable alterations to the nuclear genome.” For those women and their families, the most important help we can offer is potential treatments, to prevent the That is an understandable fear, but he went on to make next generation of patients from being affected. The a very important point: opportunity to have their own children free of disease is “However, we are only talking about the use of these techniques something that the patients understandably want. in the clearly-defined situation of otherwise incurable mitochondrial As with all such advances, it is right that the ethics are disorders, under strict regulation.” properly considered before techniques are adopted, and the Minister will be aware that concerns have been In 2012, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology raised. There are those who argue that the techniques Authority—HFEA—launched a public consultation on create children with three parents, but the embryo would mitochondria replacement. It interviewed almost 1,000 carry only a small number of genes from the donor—just people, and a further 1,800 completed questionnaires. It 13 out of 23,000, or 0.056% of the genetic material. also organised public workshops around the UK and How much of a parent is that? The function of the 13 spoke to individuals affected by the diseases, to gauge genes is restricted to powering the mitochondria; they their views. It published the results in March of this do not affect personal characteristics such as eye or hair year, and found broad public support for the use of the colour, or behaviour. technique. Last June, the Nuffield Council on Bioethics produced The HFEA asked four main questions about attitudes a report that found that the technique would be an to the gene treatment of mitochondrial diseases. When ethical treatment option for affected families, as long as asked about attitudes to the selection of embryos based research showed that treatment was likely to be safe and on testing, 65% of those questioned were positive or effective, and families were offered full information and very positive, with only 8% negative. When asked about support. The council’s report found that no strong altering the genetic make-up of an egg or an embryo, cultural or social emphasis is generally placed on 56% were positive or very positive and only 10% were mitochondrial inheritance as a specific element of personal negative. Attitudes to the use of genetic material from a identity. Many of the social and biological aspects that third person showed that 44% were positive or very typically imply a “parent”, and may be relevant in egg positive, with only 15% negative. The HFEA therefore donation for reproduction, do not apply to mitochondrial advised the Government that there was broad support donation. The council therefore suggested that if the for mitochondrial replacement being made available to treatments were made available, mitochondrial donors families at risk of passing on a serious mitochondrial should not have the same status in regulation as reproductive disease. It also advised that if treatment were to be egg donors. authorised by Parliament, it should be under certain conditions, such as its being available only in licensed Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): My hon. clinics. Friend makes a good case about the serious effects that The HFEA recommendations have been widely the diseases resulting from the condition have on families. welcomed by campaigners. For example, Dr Marita If we think forward to any children who are fortunate Pohlschmidt, director of research at the Muscular enough to be born without disease because of the Dystrophy Campaign, said: treatment, would there be any possibility that they might consider themselves to have three parents, whether “We welcome this outcome. There is currently no effective or not they had any traits from the third one? Has treatment available for mitochondrial diseases, and at this time, thought been given to how that would be considered if prevention remains our strongest option. By taking forward it should happen? research into pro nuclear IVF, we move towards giving women living with these devastating and unpredictable conditions the choice to bear their own unaffected children. This technique does Chi Onwurah: My hon. Friend is right. There has involve a step into new scientific territory. But it is a calculated, been some debate about the status not only of the specific step with the sole aim of preventing a potential fatal donors but, most importantly, of the children. The condition from being passed down to the next generation, where Nuffield Council on Bioethics says that families must be possible.” offered full information and support, and that must We are now waiting for a decision from the Government also apply to the children, so that they understand the about whether secondary legislation that will allow the scientific nature of the very limited gene inheritance techniques to be licensed for use in patients will be from the donation. introduced in this parliamentary Session. It has taken If mitochondrial donors were not given the same years to get to this stage, and it is important that status as reproductive egg donors, it would be not progress does not stall because families are waiting for legally required for them to be identifiable to people this. Introducing regulations now will ensure there is no born from their donations. The council concluded that avoidable delay in the treatments reaching affected families the proposed treatments would be a form of gene once research is completed and the HFEA considers therapy that would permanently cure the disease in there to be sufficient evidence that the techniques are future generations. Changes resulting from the replacement safe and effective. 63WH Mitochondrial Disease25 JUNE 2013 Mitochondrial Disease 64WH

[Chi Onwurah] that the press have perhaps been a bit misleading in saying that, if it all goes ahead, some children will have I called this debate to hear an update from the three parents. They really will not: they will have their Minister on the progress that she has made, and to ask biological mother and father. It is simply that the batteries when we can expect a decision, and when we can expect have been taken from another woman’s egg so that they to see legislation. are sure that any child does not bear some of the very serious diseases that often lead to premature death. 4.38 pm We recognise the concerns that have been raised about whether such techniques are a form of germline The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health or genetic modification in human beings and about (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure to serve under your whether it would be ethical to allow them in treatment, chairmanship, Mr Davies. I congratulate the hon. Member and those considerations are important. Technically, for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) not the resultant embryo would be formed from the eggs of only on securing the debate but on highlighting the two women, but the genetic material that relates to the impact of mitochondrial disease on families, and the child’s characteristics would have been removed from potential of the new techniques to prevent suffering and the donor egg, so the child will have genes from the premature death and bring hope to the many families patient and her partner—in other words, from the child’s who seek to prevent their children from inheriting these mother and father—but they will also have healthy sorts of diseases in the future. The hon. Lady does mitochondria. everyone a service in raising the issue. It is a controversial issue, and she has asked me some direct questions. Chi Onwurah: I thank the Minister very much for the The Government fully recognise the sensitivity of the constructive form of her response and for the new issues, and since researchers first approached my information. Her point about the child not having the Department in 2010 requesting that we make regulations, genetic material is very important. Will she emphasise we have been collecting expert opinion and public views. that the process is nothing like changing the eye colour I will be up front, and say straight away that the chief or height of the unborn child? An important point to medical officer has given the issue her careful consideration get across is that there is no genetic modification in that in the light of the advice and the findings of the Human sense. Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, following the consultation period. I anticipate that she will set out the Anna Soubry: I absolutely agree. I am perhaps putting Government response before the summer recess and, the subject in simple terms, but that is how it is. This is even with my poor mathematics, I can work out that actually about the fact that if someone is effectively that should certainly be within the next few weeks. carrying this particular disease, the mitochondria—the I emphasise that the Department of Health has given batteries that charge things—are replaced to make sure careful consideration to the advice and information that they do not have these diseases. Because the passed to us by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology mitochondria cannot be taken out of the mother’s egg, Authority on 28 March. We have also taken account of a donor egg has to be found. The DNA is removed from other published reviews, such as the one in 2012 by the that egg and the mother’s DNA is put in—taking those Nuffield Council on Bioethics in its report on “Novel good healthy mitochondria or the batteries—so that she techniques for the prevention of mitochondrial DNA has a healthy egg that, in due course, can be fertilised by disorders: an ethical review”. the father in the normal way. It is absolutely right that Our considerations are being led by the chief medical the genetic make-up of a resultant child will be the officer. It is right, if we are to move forward, that she mother’s and father’s. That does not of course guarantee should be the person to lead on the proposals—she may that the child will have the same colour eyes as their reject them—and, as the CMO, to make any announcement mother, as we all know, especially me as a blue-eyed and to be at the forefront of any decision. I am told that mother with two brown-eyed daughters. As ever, Mr her considerations are almost complete. Davies, I digress, but this is a serious matter. We recognise that allowing the treatment would give I pay great tribute to researchers at the International an opportunity for women who carry mitochondrial Centre for Life in Newcastle. The hon. Lady should not disease the choice—it is important to state that if regulations hesitate to do so, whether her father was there or not, are introduced, they would have a choice—to have because it is a fine institution. They have been developing genetically related children without the risk of serious their groundbreaking expertise for many years. In diseases; I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving anticipation of significant advances in this field, the examples of those diseases, and it is the understandable Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 was desire of many parents, especially women, not to allow amended in 2008 to introduce a regulation-making them to be inherited by a child. power that, if implemented, would enable mitochondria This issue is about giving women a choice on whether replacement to take place in treatment. or not their DNA is put into another woman’s egg. In The powers are therefore there, but it is important to effect, a woman would be hijacking the batteries, because say that they would not be implemented in some secondary mitochondria are the batteries that provide the energy, way. I understand that the matter would have to come and when they do not work, they cause these diseases. to this place and that, in any event, there would be a This is not about any kind of genetic engineering, about debate. That is my understanding, but if I am wrong I which people would rightly be concerned. will correct that, as you would expect, Mr Davies. When the science and the real benefits are explained In 2010, Newcastle researchers approached the to people, and the fact that the child who is born has the Department of Health and, in the light of their progress, same genetic background as their mother, they will see requested that we consider introducing regulations to 65WH Mitochondrial Disease25 JUNE 2013 Mitochondrial Disease 66WH allow mitochondria replacement in treatment. In response, safety and efficacy of the new techniques; and the issues the Department asked the Human Fertilisation and to consider in introducing an appropriate regulatory Embryology Authority to get independent advice about framework. The public consultation indicated, overall, the safety and efficacy of the techniques. that there is general support for allowing the treatment An expert advisory group was established, and a techniques to be used, as long as they are safe and report was passed to the Department in spring 2011. It carefully regulated. found that the techniques were not unsafe, but it We appreciate and recognise, however, that a range of recommended that further research be undertaken. After views, not all of which were in favour of a change in careful consideration of that report, the Department of regulation, was strongly expressed through the consultation. Health and the Department for Business, Innovation A significant response came from the religious community, and Skills commissioned the HFEA in autumn 2011 to which was not in favour of allowing the techniques, undertake a comprehensive set of public consultations whereas the scientific community, bioethics groups and to identify the public’s views about and understanding patient and family groups were in favour. of this complex and sensitive issue. That consultation The expert panel, which was reconvened by the HFEA, was held between July and December last year. It looked concluded that although there continues to be nothing at the social and ethical issues raised by mitochondria to indicate that the techniques are unsafe, further research replacement, as well as addressing a range of practical on some specific aspects should be undertaken. All the regulatory issues. recommended research is currently being undertaken In collaboration with Sciencewise, which has a key either in Newcastle or Oregon in the United States. The role in helping the public to understand complex scientific expert panel expressed the view that insufficient research issues, the HFEA took many different approaches to is currently available to recommend one particular technique ensure that it gathered public views on the issue. It held above another. It also recommended long-term follow-up workshops with members of the public, tracking their monitoring of any children born as a result of the views over time and in response to new information. It techniques. ran what is called a representative survey, an online I conclude where I began by saying that we anticipate public consultation, two public meetings through which that the CMO will announce the Government’s response interested groups and individuals could express their very soon—before we break for the recess—which is at views, and a focus group with families who are personally least some good news. As the hon. Lady said, the issue affected by mitochondrial disease, because their views has been ongoing for several years, so it is important to are extremely important. find out whether it will reach the sort of conclusion that The HFEA report was published on 28 March and she wants, and we anticipate that that will be very soon. was passed to the Department. It provided us with three separate strands of advice: the outcome of its public 4.48 pm dialogue and consultation; a scientific update on the Sitting suspended. 67WH 25 JUNE 2013 Horn Lane, Acton 68WH

Horn Lane, Acton upping the ante and applying pressure on those with the power to take enforcement action against the operators at the site. They banded together to form an action 4.52 pm group, SHLAP, or Stop Horn Lane Air Pollution, and I Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I am secured a series of meetings for them with the Environment delighted, Mr Davies, to serve under your chairmanship Agency and an Ealing council officer here in Parliament. for the first time. I can scarcely believe that I am back in Together we tried to get to the bottom of various Westminster Hall with the same issue that I first raised licensing agreement conditions and were presented with with the Minister some two-and-a-half years ago—the endless pages of monitoring statistics from the various outrageously high pollution levels on Horn lane in monitors installed at the site as part of an attempt to Acton. For years, they have blighted the lives of local control the operators. residents who, while fortunate in many ways to live in It was a frustrating exercise in which we learned from this part of west London, suffer the severe misfortune the Environment Agency that because of potential legal of living next to perhaps the most unfriendly neighbour action from any company that was threatened with imaginable. That neighbour is a polluting industrial losing its licence because of regular pollution breaches, site, which is home not only to a waste transfer company it rarely, if ever, wanted to go down that particular but to a construction aggregates company, a cement route. As it said, it would have been necessary to be able company and a metal recycling plant, too. to prove precisely which operator was to blame for any The site sits slap bang in the middle of a residential pollution infringement. As that would be nigh on impossible community and is a throwback to a time when Horn in such a complex area, it was never really going to be a lane was home to factories rather than the flats and starter. houses that are there now. As forum posts on the local We were left feeling that really the only lever available residents’ website frequently demonstrate, the community was monitoring and more monitoring, and many of us there cannot fathom how or why that industrial remnant feel that monitoring without consequences can become is still allowed to be there. Residents have had enough of rather pointless. This just is not good enough. How can the disappointing performance of the local authority the public continue to be told that there is unacceptable and the Environment Agency in getting anything significant pollution at a site, but that nothing can be done about it done about the consistently excessive pollution that or, at least, that no agency is prepared to do anything emanates from the site. They are able to provide numerous about it? examples of the negative effects it is having on local The issue has continued to simmer away, but things people’s health. really came to a head in April when it came to the Ask Vib Patel, a chemist on Horn lane, and he say attention of local residents that Ealing council had put that sales of inhalers for customers there are appreciably in for City Hall funding, from the Mayor of London, to higher than those at his other shops in Tufnell Park and the tune of nearly £500,000 to become an air quality Victoria. That can be of no coincidence when we take exemplar borough. Imagine their surprise when, reading into account the number of times so far this year that the report presented for a Cabinet discussion on the operators have again breached air quality objectives issue, they discovered there was not even a mention of with their activity. Horn lane has been up there yet Horn lane. Imagine their frustration. It really did beggar again as the most polluted area in the whole of London. belief that Ealing would put itself forward as an air A simple look at the readings broadcast on Ealing quality exemplar borough with absolutely no reference council’s own air quality webpage confirms that Horn at all to the shocking pollution levels on Horn lane. lane is an outlier when compared with other sites, and Only when that was pointed out to the council did an all the while Ealing council is bidding to become an air addendum to the report magically appear, finally quality exemplar borough, but more on that later. mentioning the site. It was a classic example of the As I know from previous attempts to get something prevailing attitude, showing a cavalier approach to the done about this difficult site, responsibility for monitoring health of the local residents. and taking enforcement action when necessary is In fact the local authority’s casual attitude to the conveniently shared between a public body, the Environment problems of this site and the concerns of local people is Agency, and the local authority, Ealing. I say conveniently reflected in the way in which officers continue to reach because, as the Minister admitted in his response to me for the convenient excuse that it is all to do with heavy last time, this creates a complex and all together confusing traffic in the area. A large part of the problem is its picture, which I am afraid all too often leads to spectacular failure to accept that the unusually high pollution levels inaction. I do not think it is overly cynical to say that in the area are caused by the Horn Lane industrial site, that suits almost everyone concerned apart from the and I am sorry to say that that was a feature of the residents who have to live with the effects of the site. I Minister’s response back in 2010 as well. The now am back again to say that this time enough really must familiar refrain, or a useful get-out clause is my view, is be enough. I am sick of the excuses. What we need now that there are numerous other potential sources of is meaningful action. Either we get some proper enforcement PM10— particulate matter of less than 10 microns in against those persistent polluters or we should completely diameter—close to the monitoring station at the Horn rezone the area for business and residential use, a perfectly Lane site. Examples cited are the nearby A40 and the sensible and achievable ambition, especially with Crossrail Hanger Lane gyratory system and the heavy traffic in set to arrive at Acton mainline station in the next few the neighbourhood. years. In the Minister’s previous response he said: As the Minister knows from my brief potted history “In the case of Horn lane, there are several potential sources of of the saga last time, a group of determined and committed PM10 close to the monitoring station, including transport from local residents decided that they needed to find a way of Horn lane and the nearby A40, other transport sources such as 69WH Horn Lane, Acton25 JUNE 2013 Horn Lane, Acton 70WH buses and trains, and pollution from the industrial site, which has exerted that the council is now insisting on a retrospective several units engaged in concrete production, aggregate supply, planning application. That just goes to show how scrap metal and waste transfer, and also heavy vehicle movements. disinterested the local authority has been in what goes That combination of sources adds to the load of dust and on at the site. pollution and requires that several agencies work together with operators to control it.”—[Official Report, 15 December 2010; I know the council will say that since 2005 there has Vol. 520, c. 295WH.] been an improvement. That is true—to an extent. However, In other words, this is a complicated picture. There are that improvement seems to have tailed off since 2009. lots of sources of potential pollution and we cannot Equally, residents say that that assessment sounds like really be sure how bad or how responsible the Horn the council is resting on its laurels. The breaches continue Lane site is for the actual breaches of air quality targets. to happen on a regular basis. Whenever they occur, and However, if anyone spends five minutes on Ealing council’s how ever often they occur, they are totally unacceptable air quality website, they will find all the evidence they and the council needs to be far more active than it has could possibly want to show that that excuse simply been. does not stand up. As the Minister knows, I tabled a couple of questions The website helpfully allows people to compare recently that specifically asked about the role that local monitoring data on PM10 particulates on a graph that authorities should play in tackling persistently high shows the monitoring stations at the three locations I levels of pollution, and what powers are available for have just mentioned: Horn lane; the Hanger Lane gyratory them to do that. His answers could not have been system; and the A40. The results speak for themselves. clearer. He said that this is an area of local authority Horn lane always comes out as being at least two to responsibility and there is a wide range of powers three times more polluted than the other two locations. available to local authorities, including under the This month is as good an example as any. The latest Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations readings show an average of between 100 and 200 2010; under the Clean Air Act; under the Environmental micrograms per cubic metre for Horn lane, compared Protection Act 1990; and under the Noise Act 1996. with less than 50 micrograms per cubic metre at the These powers would seem to cover all bases, so why are other two sites. I encourage the Minister and his team they not being used to maximum effect? to have a look at the website. Notwithstanding the inaction so far, I have pursued a How much longer do we have to go on hearing that further meeting with the Environment Agency and Ealing traffic is the root cause of the problem at Horn lane council, which we are holding at the Horn Lane site on when the facts clearly demonstrate that that is plainly 12 July as a last-ditch attempt to bang heads together. It not the case? Of course, much of the heavy traffic in the is no use the council launching new and costly consultations immediate Horn Lane area is actually generated by the about what new monitoring or green infrastructure industrial site itself. Moreover, there are many other measures might help to ease the problem. We have major roads in other parts of London with similarly already had eight years of monitoring. At the very least, heavy traffic that do not generate the high readings that what is needed is action against the pollution perpetrators Horn lane does. It is also worth noting that Horn lane is and, more importantly, greater thought to be given to a a small connecting road, whereas the A40 is a main site that should be a regeneration priority for the borough, arterial road and Hanger lane a major gyratory system. especially when we consider the fantastic opportunity that a new Crossrail station in the area presents. Obviously, general traffic in the Horn Lane area, plus However, there is a real fear that Ealing council will the trains, ensures a degree of pollution that in itself continue to make noises about small, remedial measures might be problematic, but clearly it is the addition of to ease the problem, which anyone who has followed the local industrial site that tips the levels around Horn this issue closely knows will do precisely nothing to ease lane over levels that would be acceptable. That is why the problem. Also attending the meeting on 12 July will attention must be focused on bearing down on that be representatives from City Hall and I hope that Ealing source of high pollution. council will be prepared to discuss with the Mayor’s There is real frustration that no one seems prepared team the wider planning considerations of a rezoning to get to grips with what is a serious problem. As I have of the site for residential and business use, and to already said, the Environment Agency has been busily promote the obvious benefits that a rezoning might monitoring the situation and it is only fair to say that it bring. has succeeded in reducing the amount of tonnage going I understand that when a rezoning is being considered through the waste transfer facility. Despite this, however, there are implications for the Mayor’s London plan, on many occasions the spikes in air pollution remain as which make things more difficult. In particular, the site high as ever, so clearly the Environment Agency has not also operates as an important railhead for freight transport, got to the bottom of the problem. Indeed, despite the which takes a degree of pressure off all the roads going engagement of the agency with the local SHLAP group, into central London. Clearly, that element of the site local residents are still being exposed to unacceptably might have to remain, but why should that preclude high levels of pollution. The official monitoring statistics proper consideration being given to the rezoning of the continue to register pollution levels that regularly breach rest of the site? After all, if we were planning from requirements. scratch, would we put this industrial site right in the Similarly, Ealing council has consistently failed to do heart of a residential community? I do not think we anything about a road that—under its watch—has fast would. The benefits of a flagship new Crossrail station become what is often the most polluted road in London. in the area—the last one before Paddington—are obvious. For example, it is quite extraordinary that Hansons, the The council recognises and is planning for the Crossrail cement plant, got away with expansion without planning benefits in Ealing town centre. Why can it not see the permission, and it was only after local pressure was potential for Acton too? 71WH Horn Lane, Acton25 JUNE 2013 Horn Lane, Acton 72WH

[Angie Bray] that this continual monitoring does not seem to be delivering benefits is understood. To sum up, surely there is something that we can do The Horn Lane site is particularly plagued by high about this problem. We need a vision for the future of levels of particulate matter pollution, or PM10, which this part of Acton, and we need leadership to carry that is composed of dust and other fine materials from vision through, which will require determination either transport sources and other sources. However, I absolutely to rezone or to crack down, to provide an enhancement concede my hon. Friend’s point that it is industrial of the quality of life for the local residents that they processes, such as waste management, construction and certainly deserve. demolition, that she is concerned about in this area. PM10 is not visible to the naked eye, but it can be monitored and it impacts on human health, particularly 5.5 pm vulnerable groups with respiratory problems. She made The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for a very good point about the number of inhalers that are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): being sold locally. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central The UK has set national objectives for levels of and Acton (Angie Bray) for raising this issue. In one particulate matter and these should not exceed an annual sense, I am dismayed that she has had to raise it. I recall mean of 40 micrograms per cubic metre. The UK has our earlier debate; as she said, it was more than two also set a level of 50 micrograms per cubic metre for years ago. It is clearly a matter of genuine concern that daily mean levels of particulate matter. It is recognised this site continues to be a problem for residents in the that on some days this daily level might not be achieved Horn Lane area. At the end of her speech, she talked because of particular local circumstances or weather about the need for “leadership”. Quite clearly, she is conditions, and we therefore allow up to 35 days’ giving great leadership to her constituents, and she exceedances at those sites to take account of these should feel reassured that that is something I recognise. instances. Indeed, I recognise not only her determination to continue In 2005, the Horn Lane monitoring site recorded levels to push at the agencies and authorities that can have of dust in excess of the national daily objective on 205 control of this matter but to look holistically at this days. These levels were unacceptable and it was clear problem, to see that we are not just talking about an that rapid and urgent action was needed. In 2012, issue relating to the problems of today but one that thanks to action by the EA and site operators, no more relates to the development of the area in the future. She than 53 days were recorded as being over the daily has not only considered the benefits that could come objective. This is a significant reduction on the 2005 from the Crossrail development but the wider need to figure, but it is still too high. So far this year, there have take a proper strategic view about the long-term use of been 36 days recorded in excess of the daily objective. this site in relation to the local people who live around it. I want to outline what action has been carried out by various agencies since 2010, when we last spoke, and To set this issue in context, the Government recognise what action is being taken now with the Mayor, who is the impact that poor air quality can have on public the strategic lead for air quality in London, and my health and we have an ongoing commitment to work Department. The Horn Lane area and the industrial towards compliance with EU obligations on air quality. site comprises several industrial processes adjacent to In a way, that is rather a low level of aspiration. We residential properties and a number of arterial roads want to do something not because we want to fulfil an and railways. These present several potential sources of EU obligation but because we care about residents in PM10 close to the monitoring site at Horn lane, including communities such as the one that my hon. Friend so waste transfer, scrap metal, aggregate supply and a eloquently describes and stands up for. concrete batching process. In addition, there are various We have seen considerable improvements in pollution key transport pollution sources in the area, including over many years now. Measures to reduce pollution traffic on Horn lane and on the western A40; buses from transport sources, industrial sources and other along Horn lane; and trains on the adjacent railway. sources have ensured that the UK now meets EU standards But I concede my hon. Friend’s point that, although for annual limits of particulate matter pollution, or those may be part of the problem, they are not the PM10, and daily limits. In particular, measures to reduce significant driver, because plenty of other areas in her transport pollution, such as increasingly tight European constituency with the same transport issues do not have standards, have been effective in controlling particulate this problem. One does not have to be a scientist or to matter pollution, and, in London, actions such as the have any particular knowledge about PM10s to know Mayor’s low emission zone, fitting diesel particulate where the problem is coming from. Major construction filters to London buses and other measures have all works in the form of Crossrail and, recently, roadworks made important contributions. in the vicinity of the Horn lane may have contributed. However, we also know that particulate matter pollution We must remember that all these activities are important especially has health impacts beyond EU standards, for growth, ensuring waste is recycled and construction and local hot spots such as Horn lane provide a continued materials are produced. I know that my hon. Friend is challenge. My hon. Friend rightly pointed out that the mindful of this for the benefit of Londoners as a whole London borough of Ealing has overall responsibility and for the wealth of her constituency, but it is about for air quality in the area, and for developing management where we locate such activities and the practicalities of plans to improve air quality and to meet other doing that. These activities provide valuable employment environmental concerns. I remember from our previous opportunities, both locally and across London, and debate on this issue that the council has maintained a return money to the local economy. However, this monitoring site at Horn lane since 2005, and her frustration combination of factors has also contributed to a perfect 73WH Horn Lane, Acton25 JUNE 2013 Horn Lane, Acton 74WH storm of pollution potential, making this location among objectives and continued action is needed to ensure the the most challenging for operators to control and for gains made are sustained and further reductions achieved. the Environment Agency and the London borough of The GLA represents the Mayor’s interest in improving Ealing to regulate. This control must be achieved and it air quality. It does this working with national Government is the responsibility of operators, with support from and with London boroughs and the Environment Agency, other agencies, to ensure that their activities are properly as well as other stakeholders, such as business. Last managed. week, the Environment Agency and the GLA co-ordinated I am staggered that a major change has taken place a meeting, which my hon. Friend mentioned, of the key without planning permission. In an area as contentious regulators responsible for this site, together with Department as this, that seems to be an extraordinary state of affairs officials. A number of key actions were identified from and it is right that my hon. Friend raises it. that meeting and these will be taken forward by the key At Horn lane, the Environment Agency regulates players concerned. We really want to make sure that part of the aggregates site run by Yeoman’s aggregates, these work and that a quantum leap is made in trying to the waste transfer station of Gowing and Pursey, and resolve this problem. Horn Lane Metals scrap merchant. The London borough The Environment Agency and the London borough of Ealing should also regulate part of the Yeoman of Ealing, as the main regulatory bodies, agreed to aggregates site and a concrete production site, with intensify their inspection regime to ensure that permit Transport for London having responsibility for reducing conditions were being met. I understand that this will pollution from transport sources. include joint inspections, to be held monthly, and further The Environment Agency produced an amenity action action by the London borough of Ealing, agreed to plan in 2010, which is regularly updated with details of reduce emissions from the wet concrete batching facility the actions taken to reduce emissions from the sites it and the private haul road. There is similar action by the regulates. These measures have significantly contributed Environment Agency at the local metal waste site, and to the reduction in levels since 2005. manual and mechanical sweeping, and further use of CMA spray, on the site to control dust. These and other Enforcement action has been taken against sites that detailed measures will help ensure that pressure is imposed are not performing appropriately and further legal to reduce particulate pollution. This site continues to enforcement has been taken and further enforcement concern us and we will continue to monitor it and my remains an option. Since 2010, the Environment Agency Department will continue to take a close interest in has issued several notices to ensure waste transfer operations ensuring progress is maintained. at the site are properly controlled. We rely on my hon. Friend to continue to keep us informed, where she As we can see, this site presents a complex challenge. thinks that this is not happening fast enough and where It is necessary for the local authority, the Environment her direct dealings with the Environment Agency do Agency, the GLA and operators to work together to not yield the correct answers. I remain on hand, and my identify and control pollution sources. The regulators colleague in the House of Lords, who has direct must also ensure that the responsible operators on the responsibility for these issues, will certainly follow up site comply with the control measures and monitor matters, as and when she informs us. levels of pollution. Outside the site, ongoing action is being taken by the GLA to reduce transport emissions. The agency has worked with Gowing and Pursey to install monitoring equipment and alert systems, so that The continued action from my hon. Friend and local the operators can respond to instances when dust levels residents has been helpful in ensuring this. I am grateful are approaching dangerous levels; it is important to be to my hon. Friend for raising the issue again today. I able to monitor it before it becomes a major problem, would have to be obtuse not to get the frustration that and that is what is sought. The agency has also worked she feels on behalf of her constituents who live in this with those responsible for other sources of particulate area. It is a complex site—an industrial site—that, in an pollution on the site, to promote improvements. ideal world, would not be in a location surrounded by residential accommodation. I assure her that this issue In 2012, the EA worked with the Greater London is on our radar. We want to ensure that the leadership Authority and Transport for London to introduce a that she has shown is reflected by leadership from all programme of deep cleaning, including the use of calcium the agencies, some of which we are responsible for, such magnesium acetate dust suppressant, to control dust as the Environment Agency. However, we are not levels at the site. The work was successful and showed a responsible for others and we look to my hon. Friend to 36% reduction in the level of particulates in the area. continue to hold their feet to the fire on this. Following a brief period where the site appeared to be contributing to dust in the area, an enforcement notice We want this matter to be resolved. We do not want was served to bring the site back into compliance with my hon. Friend to have to bring this back to the House, its permit within one working day. This has been effective but I commend her for doing it. and at the time of the last inspection on 22 May, the site Question put and agreed to. was clean and all waste was contained within the shed. Although particulate matter has reduced, all the parties 5.19 pm recognise that levels continue to be above national Sitting adjourned.

3WS Written Statements25 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 4WS

clear signal for an integrated framework. He drew particular Written Statements attention to six issues: the promotion of drivers for the green economy; the role of sustainable consumption; Tuesday 25 June 2013 the need for planetary boundaries to be respected; the need for an integrated approach in developing the future framework; improving the financing of the post-2015 framework; and the need to speak with one EU voice. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Member states were broadly positive about the Council conclusions. Ministers also responded to the presidency’s questions on the links between the UN’s high-level EU Environment Council panel of eminent persons on the post 2015 development agenda and the elaboration of the sustainable development goals (SDGs). The presidency noted strong support The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and from member states for the high-level panel report, for a Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): My noble Friend single development agenda, and for the five transformational Lord de Mauley, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for shifts—particularly for the focus on sustainable Resource Management, the Local Environment and development. The presidency noted that there was no Environmental Science, represented the UK at the EU consensus yet on the priority areas but that it was Environment Council in Luxembourg on 18 June. Paul important to more fully integrate the environment into Wheelhouse, Scottish Minister for Environment and the goals. Climate Change, also attended. Under AOB items, the Council took note of the After adopting the list of legislative and non-legislative Irish presidency’s note on the aviation emissions trading “A” items, Environment Ministers adopted council scheme. The Commission called upon Ministers to conclusions on the Commission’s strategy on adaptation agree upon a regional market-based system; indicated to climate change, making only one change to the text. that it was important for the EU to speak with one Member states and the Commission shared the view voice in international negotiations; and highlighted that the conclusions represented a good balance of the importance of foreign airlines being included in the opinions. Portugal called for inclusion of specific examples “stop the clock” system. The Council then took note of the impacts of climate change in the text. This received of the presidency’s progress report on negotiations on broad support and the conclusions were adopted with the fluorinated greenhouse gases proposal, with the this amendment. The Commission urged Environment Commission referencing the recent US-China agreement Ministers to be aware of discussions on the uptake of on hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs). On the environmental adaptation measures in other policy areas, for example impact assessment (EIA) directive, the presidency in the common agricultural policy. Member states summarised the discussion so far. The Commission underlined the importance of taking action on adaptation, observed that everyone wanted the EIA to be more with many expressing sympathy to those member states effective and efficient, and that harmonisation across who had recently suffered from severe flooding, and the EU was necessary to create a level playing field. On praised various aspects of the Commission’s strategy, access and benefit sharing of genetic resources, the especially on mainstreaming adaptation into EU policies presidency recapped the discussion that took place at and improving knowledge sharing. March Council. The Commission was confident that The Irish presidency then introduced its progress progress made under the Irish presidency would be a report on negotiations to amend directives relating to good basis for discussions with the European Parliament the quality of petrol and diesel fuels and the promotion after the summer. of energy from renewable sources, in order to address the indirect land use change (ILUC) impacts of biofuels. Continuing with the AOB items, the deputy ambassador The presidency acknowledged that there were diverging from the Netherlands introduced an information note opinions, but hoped that consensus could be reached. to the Council on micro-plastic litter in the environment. Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard defended Italy, Sweden, Belgium and Denmark intervened in the Commission’s proposal, arguing that it represented favour of the Netherlands proposal, while the UK a reasonable balance between delivering greenhouse gas encouraged further voluntary action with industry. The emission reductions and respecting existing investments Commission welcomed the Netherlands initiative, and in biofuels. The presidency invited brief comments from indicated that it would look into the issue in the context member states, but indicated that substantive discussion of its Green Paper on plastic waste. Hungary then would take place at working group level. Several member introduced its information note on the forthcoming states, including the UK, intervened. Points raised included “Budapest water summit”, which will take place the need for robust action; the proposed 5% cap on 8-11 October 2013. Finally, the incoming Lithuanian crop-based biofuels; the advanced biofuel sub-target; presidency set out its work programme for the coming and mutual recognition of national biofuel certification six months. schemes. Ministers then broke for a working lunch, during On the follow-up to the United Nations conference which the marine strategy framework directive (MSFD) on sustainable development (“Rio+20”), Ministers endorsed was discussed. Professor Laurence Mee, director of the Council conclusions on the overarching post-2015 agenda Scottish Association for Marine Science, gave a presentation and exchanged views on the links between the UN on the main challenges for implementation of the MSFD. Secretary General’s high-level panel report on the post-2015 A wide-ranging discussion followed, with an emphasis development agenda and the elaboration of the sustainable on blue and green growth. Commissioner Damanaki development goals. Commissioner Potocnik welcomed (DG MARE) spoke about the common fisheries policy, the Council conclusions and noted that they gave a and about the importance of working together to tackle 5WS Written Statements25 JUNE 2013 Written Statements 6WS marine pollution. The Commissioner confirmed thatj proposed new version of the guidance which has been its current view was that targets on marine litter would developed with the technical assistance of the Civil not be mandatory, and that any consideration of targets Aviation Authority. would be on a Europe-wide basis rather than at a The proposed new guidance has two key objectives. national level. The first is to provide the Civil Aviation Authority with additional clarity on the Government’s environmental HOME DEPARTMENT objectives relating to air navigation in the UK, including the need to improve the efficiency of our UK airspace Drugs Update network. The second is a reaffirmation of the need to consult local communities near airports when airspace changes are being considered in the vicinity of these The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy airports. Browne): New psychoactive substances have the potential to pose serious risks to public health and safety. They The consultation will run from Tuesday 25 June to are often marketed as legal alternatives to controlled Tuesday 17 September. Anyone with an interest is invited substances, but users can have no certainty of the health to take part, although the guidance is aimed at both the risks that will arise from using them, nor the legal status Civil Aviation Authority and those organisations likely of these substances. to make airspace change proposals in the future. The market in new psychoactive substances poses A copy of the consultation document and instructions challenges due to the rapid development of new drugs. for responding can be found on my Department’s website The UK published an NPS action plan in May 2012 at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications. which committed us to a range of measures to address An electronic copy has been lodged with the Library the threat, including galvanizing international partners of the House. and institutions to meet this global challenge. The responses received to this consultation will be The UK has played a leading role in meeting this used to help refine the guidance which is expected to challenge and building international partnerships. Over be presented to the Civil Aviation Authority by the end the past two years we have successfully led two UN of the year. resolutions to foster international action and collaboration. We have also taken the opportunity of the G8 presidency to progress our response to this threat with other WORK AND PENSIONS G8 member states, the UN and the EU. We are engaged in a very positive exchange, sharing our understanding Pension Protection Fund (Compensation Cap) of the market and different approaches to protect the public and exploring opportunities for collaboration going forward. The Minister of State, Department for Work and The sharing of information among international partners Pensions (Steve Webb): On 4 December 2012, during the on the emergence of new substances, their impact on Adjournment debate on the position of the Visteon public health and the supply routes is invaluable in pensioners, I announced that I would be conducting a addressing the challenge. I am pleased to inform Parliament review of how the Pension Protection Fund compensation that the G8 have agreed a statement of intent to progress cap operated, particularly in relation to those who have our close joint working on this. The statement is available been members of a pension scheme for a long time. on the Home Office website. The Government accept that the PPF compensation cap could have a disproportionate effect on some people TRANSPORT who were members of a scheme for a long time. As a result, I propose that the compensation cap will be Civil Aviation Authority (Air Navigation Guidance) increased by 3% for every full year of service above 20 years. There will still be a maximum, which will be double the standard cap. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns): When the Civil Aviation Authority It is my intention to bring forward legislation to is exercising its air navigation functions it is required revise the compensation cap as soon as parliamentary under the Transport Act 2000 to take account of time allows. environmental guidance given to it by the Secretary This revised compensation cap will not be backdated: of State. The current guidance was issued in January anyone covered by this change who is already in receipt 2002 by the then Department for Transport, Local of capped compensation will get any increase from the Government and the Regions. Since its publication, date the relevant legislation is in place. The revised cap there have been some significant developments such as will also affect any scheme that does not enter the PPF, the creation of both the future airspace strategy and but only where it begins to wind up or enters the PPF single European sky and the aviation policy framework assessment period after the revised cap is introduced. which need to be reflected in the guidance. For example, a person who has been a member of a On 17 January 2012 it was announced therefore that pension scheme for 40 years and had accrued a pension there would be a consultation on a revised version of of £50,000 would, if they took their compensation on the air navigation guidance following the publication reaching age 65 today, be paid a capped amount of of the aviation policy framework. I am pleased to £31,380. Following my proposed change, this person announce the launch today of this consultation on our would see their compensation increase to £45,000. 143W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 144W

Written Answers to Number of WPQs tabled Sitting WPQs per sitting Questions Parliamentary session days tabled day Session 2007-08 (6 November 2007 165 75,000 455 to 26 November 2008) Tuesday 25 June 2013 Session 2008-09 (3 December 2008 136 57,054 420 to 12 November 2009) Session 2009-10 (18 November 2009 69 24,093 349 SCOTLAND to 8 April 2010) Session 2010-12 (25 May 2010 to 1 295 98,256 333 Termination of Employment May 2012) Session 2012-13 (9 May 2012 to 25 145 42,804 295 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2013) Scotland on how many occasions (a) a compromise agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial Information is not readily available to disaggregate mediation was used when an employee of his questions tabled on sitting and non-sitting days over the Department left their employment in (i) 2010-11, (ii) period. 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160913] JUSTICE David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not employ staff directly. All staff are assigned to the office on a Prisoners: Older People secondment type arrangement from other Government bodies, principally the Scottish Government and the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministry of Justice, which remain the employers. Justice what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Health to ensure that older inmates are given adequate support to meet their health WALES requirements whilst in UK prisons. [161433] Fracking Norman Lamb: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department of Health. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the effect on Wales of Improving offender health outcomes for prisoners of all ages is a cross-Government objective, with regular Government policies on shale gas extraction. [161284] discussions and information sharing taking place between Stephen Crabb: Shale gas may have the potential to Health and Justice Departments at ministerial and senior provide the UK, and Wales, with greater energy security official levels. and economic benefits but exploration of its potential is The Health and Social Care Act 2012 confers a legal still at a very early stage. duty on NHS England to commission prison health We have made clear that any future shale gas production services. NHS England is required to promote the NHS would have to meet stringent safety and environmental Constitution and deliver the Government’s November standards and would require consultation with local 2012 Mandate. The Secretary of State holds NHS England communities before approval could be given. It is important to account, measuring performance against the NHS to have a diverse mix of energy sources to ensure our Outcomes Framework. future energy security. It is hoped that shale gas will be The Framework identifies the following priority areas, able to help provide a contribution in this respect, applicable to older prisoners, where we expect particular alongside other energy generation sources that are currently progress to be made: improving standards of care and being developed in Wales. treatment, especially for older people and at the end of people’s lives; the diagnosis, treatment and care of people with dementia; supporting people with multiple HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION long-term physical and mental health conditions, and Written Questions preventing premature deaths from the biggest killers such as heart disease and cancer. Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Social Security Benefits: Appeals Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, (1) how many written Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for parliamentary questions were tabled on each of the last Justice what proportion of appeals to the Tribunals 100 sitting days, [161209] Service regarding (a) disability living allowance, (b) (2) how many written parliamentary questions were employment and support allowance, (c) income tabled on average on each sitting day in each of the last support, (d) jobseeker’s allowance and (e) tax credits five parliamentary years. [161210] were successful in (i) each quarter in 2012 and (ii) the latest period for which figures are available from John Thurso: A table showing the number of questions appellants in (A) Coventry, (B) the west midlands and tabled on each of the last 100 sitting days has been (C) England. [158922] deposited in the Library of the House. The number of written parliamentary questions per Mrs Grant: The following table shows the proportion sitting day in each of the last five parliamentary sessions of appeals regarding (a) disability living allowance, (b) was as follows: employment and support allowance, (c) income support, 145W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 146W

(d) jobseeker’s allowance and (e) tax credits which centrally. To obtain this information would require a were decided in favour of the appellant in (A) Coventry manual inspection of each expense claim form from the (B) the west midlands and (C) Great Britain in each last five years which would incur disproportionate cost. quarter in 2012 (the latest period for which figures are In line with Government’s objective to increase available). transparency, the Department publishes a wide range of It has not been possible in the time available to information on departmental spending, including separate the data for England alone; therefore I have expenditure on travel and subsistence. This can be accessed provided the figures for Great Britain. I will write to the via the Ministry of Justice annual report and accounts. right hon. Member with the figures for England as soon Expenditure on travel and subsistence as shown in as these are available and place a copy in the Library of the annual report and accounts for the last five years the House. can be accessed via the following links: Percentage of appeals decided in favour of the appellant in each quarter of 2012 2011-12: 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ October attachment_data/file/16225/moj-annual-report-accounts- Appeal January April to July to to 2011-12.pdf.pdf1 type to March June September December The tables on page 107 and 108 under the headings of Coventry DLA 42 51 47 43 ‘travel, subsistence and hospitality’ and ‘travel and ESA 37 35 35 49 subsistence’ provide a breakdown on spend for MOJ IS 33 36 33 38 Core, Executive agencies and NDPBs. JSA 14 36 20 17 Expenditure on travel and subsistence for MOJ’s Tax credit 0 25 0 56 NDPBs was only included in the accounts from 2011-12 Overall 38 40 37 42 onwards in line with the requirement for Government Department accounts to be produced under the clear line of sight initiative. Information on travel and subsistence West DLA 32 32 37 35 1 costs for NDPBs prior to 2011-12 is not held centrally Midlands and would incur disproportionate cost to provide. ESA 36 34 35 39 2010-11: IS 31 30 28 36 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ JSA 14 20 20 25 attachment_data/file/162225/moj-annual-report-accounts- Tax credit 13 20 15 33 2011-12.pdf.pdf1 Overall 32 32 32 36 The tables on page 133 and 134 under the heading ‘travel and subsistence’ provide a breakdown on spend Great DLA 42 42 41 41 for the Core Department and the consolidated figure Britain for the Department as a whole. ESA 42 42 42 42 2009-10: IS 26 27 26 27 http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1011/hc01/ JSA 15 15 16 17 0194/0194.pdf Tax credit 16 22 21 23 The tables on page 97 and 98 under the heading Overall 36 37 37 38 ‘travel and subsistence’ provide a breakdown on spend 1 West Midlands includes appeals heard at Birmingham, Coventry, Hereford, for the Core Department and the consolidated figure Kidderminster, Leamington Spa, Nuneaton, Solihull, Stoke, Walsall, Wolverhampton for the Department as a whole. and Worcester venues. Notes: 2008-09: 1. The above data are taken from management information in line with http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm76/7600/ published statistics. 7600.pdf 2. The very small number of tax credit appeals at Coventry venues (10 in January to March 2012 and none in July to September 2012) means that the The tables on page 92 and 93 under the heading percentage appears as 0 in some instances. Similarly, due to the small number of appeals, a single case can make a significant difference to the percentages. ‘travel, subsistence and hospitality’ provide a breakdown on spend for the Core Department and the consolidated figure for the Department as a whole. Travel 2007-08: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm76/7600/ Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 7600.pdf how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) the The tables on page 108 and 109 under the heading non-departmental public bodies for which he is ‘travel, subsistence and hospitality’ provide a breakdown responsible claimed reimbursement for travel on spend for the Core Department and the consolidated subsistence expenses in each of the last five years; what figure for the Department as a whole. the total cost was of such claims; and what the monetary value was of the 20 highest subsistence Unpaid Fines: Greater London claims in each such year. [155413] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mrs Grant: Information on the number of officials what the total value of court fines and confiscation who have claimed reimbursement for travel subsistence orders (a) paid and (b) remaining unpaid was in expenses, and the monetary value of the 20 highest London in (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 and (iii) 2013-14 to subsistence claims for the last five years is not held date; and if he will make a statement. [156464] 147W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 148W

Mrs Grant: Nationally in 2011-12 a total of £279 the small number of high value confiscation orders million was collected against fines and related impositions. which remain outstanding. They are building better This figure is £20 million higher than collected in 2009-10. relationships with overseas authorities to help track In 2010-11 this figure was £282 million which was a down hidden assets and are working closely to continue record high. In the same period, HM Courts and Tribunals to recover as much money as possible. Service was the lead enforcement agency for 5,543 Crucially, an outstanding order stops the criminal confiscation orders, of which 4,471 were satisfied, which from using the proceeds of crime for personal gain or represents an 81% success rate. further criminal activity. If they ever surface they will The value of financial impositions and confiscation be seized. orders paid and outstanding in London is set out in the HMCTS is also looking to work with an external following table: provider to help reduce the cost of collection and to increase the payment of fines and confiscation orders it £ is responsible for. This will bring the necessary investment Financial Confiscation and technology HM Courts and Tribunals Service needs 1 impositions orders Details to achieve its aspirations for compliance and enforcement Total collected 2011-122 46,163,532 37,090,158 — services in the future.

Total balance outstanding 2011-123 169,791,595 257,570,412 Without Work Capability Assessment: Appeals interest 334,351,854 With interest Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people successfully appealed against a work capability assessment decision in (a) the UK, Total collected 2012-132 (April 38,514,605 31,297,443.00 — 2012 to December 2012)4 (b) Scotland and (c) South Lanarkshire in 2011-12. [156976]

Total balance outstanding 2012-133 161,842,365 320,778,748 Without (April 2012 to December 2012)4 interest Mrs Grant: The First-tier Tribunal—Social Security 416,739,412 With and Child Support (SSCS), administered by HM Courts interest and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against 1 Financial impositions include fines, cost orders, compensation orders and Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) decisions victim surcharge orders. 2 The amount collected in the period can relate to impositions from that year or on entitlement to employment and support allowance any previous year. (ESA) (decisions in which the work capability assessment 3 The balance outstanding includes the balance on all accounts regardless of (WCA) is a key factor) rather than appeals against imposition date and accounts that are being paid by instalments and accounts that were not due for payment by the end of period. WCA decisions themselves. 4 The total amount collected and total amount outstanding for 2012-13 relates The SSCS Tribunal covers Great Britain but not to the period of April 2012 to December 2012 as the latest published data. Data for the period from January 2013 to March 2013 will be published as part of the Northern Ireland, which has its own Appeals Service. Court Statistics Quarterly on 20 June 2013. The tribunal venue in Hamilton serves appellants living Note: in South Lanarkshire as well as other nearby locations. Data for the period April 2013 to date has not yet been published. Of the £416,739,412 outstanding in relation to A combination of reasons can lead to a decision confiscation orders, about a half is money that cannot being overturned on appeal. For example a hearing may be collected. The sum of money that cannot be collected generate additional evidence, in particular oral evidence, comprises of around £29.3 million (7%) which relates to provided by the appellant at the hearing. individuals who are deceased, deported or who cannot HMCTS and DWP are working closely together to be located; around £36.6 million (8.7%) that relates to improve the process for decision making and appeals. orders which are being appealed and cannot be enforced As the hon. Member is aware, in July 2012, working while under appeal; and about £74 million (17.7%) that with the Tribunal’s judiciary, HMCTS introduced a relates to orders where following the conclusion of revised decision notice in the SSCS Tribunal to provide financial forensic investigations the assets have been feedback on reasons for overturned DWP decisions. assessed as hidden. Nearly £97 million (23.2%) is interest In April 2013 DWP introduced mandatory which has accrued on confiscation orders which are reconsideration for universal credit and personal outside the agreed payment terms. independence payment, which will be extended to all We recognise that more must be done to tackle this other DWP administered benefits and child maintenance outstanding debt. We are taking a tough approach to cases from October 2013. The mandatory reconsideration fine-dodgers and improving the rate of collection as an process results in a linear, escalating process for claimants absolute priority. The Ministry of Justice is working wishing to dispute decisions. The decision maker will closely with the Home Office, Crown Prosecution Service, contact the claimant to provide an explanation of the the Serious Fraud Office and others to improve enforcement. decision under dispute and encourage the claimant to We are taking every action to tackle outstanding debt provide any additional information or evidence that through targeted fine blitzes, by making more deductions may change the decision. This will ensure DWP has an from offenders’ earnings or benefits and through seizing opportunity to resolve disputes at an early stage. and selling their goods. The following tables show the number and proportion Criminals go to extraordinary lengths to hide the of ESA appeals, where WCA was a factor, separated proceeds of their crimes by transferring funds abroad into those in which the tribunal found in favour of the and disguising it with friends and family, but we are appellant, and those in favour of the DWP, between succeeding in recovering more money every year. The April 2011 to March 2012 in (a) Great Britain, (b) Serious Fraud Office and the CPS work hard to enforce Scotland, and (c) Hamilton tribunal venue. 149W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 150W

Employment and support allowance appeals where work capability assessment Table 1: Incomes and areas of cereal farms in England, 2003-04 to 2012-13 was a factor—Great Britain Farm business income Decisions in favour of Decisions in favour of At current prices In real terms (at the appellant DWP (£) 2012-13 prices) (£) Area (ha) Cleared at 2011-12 94,500 98,000 194 1 hearing No. % No. % 2012-132 84,000 84,000 198 1 April 159,775 63,288 40 95,624 60 Farm type classification changed from ’standard gross margins’ (SGM) 2011 to typology to standard outputs (SO) typology. 2 March Provisional forecast made in January 2013. 2012 Note: Farms shown here are restricted to those with a Standard Output of at least ¤25,000 (from 2009-10) or Standard Labour Requirement of at least 0.5 Employment and support allowance appeals where work capability assessment (2009-10 and before). was a factor—Scotland Sources: Incomes: Farm Business Survey Decisions in favour of the Decisions in favour of Area: June Survey of Agriculture and Horticulture appellant DWP Cleared at Table 2: Incomes and areas of general cropping farms in England, 2003-04 to hearing1 No. % No. % 2012-13 Farm business income April 21,791 9,317 43 12,265 56 2011 to At current prices In real terms (at March (£) 2012-13 prices) (£) Area (ha) 2012 2003-04 66,000 89,000 210 2004-05 42,500 55,500 209 Employment and support allowance appeals where work capability assessment was a factor—Hamilton tribunal venue 2005-06 37,000 47,000 201 Decisions in favour of the Decisions in favour of 2006-07 62,000 76,500 202 appellant DWP 2007-08 81,000 95,500 206 Cleared at 2008-09 96,000 109,500 202 1 hearing No. % No. % 2009-10 66,000 75,500 207 1 April 2,505 950 38 1,531 61 2009-10 66,500 76,000 201 2011 to 2010-11 111,500 121,500 203 March 2011-12 101,000 104,500 201 2012 2012-132 90,000 90,000 199 1 These are cases that were disposed of at a hearing. The total number of cases 1 cleared at hearing includes some cases that were withdrawn and on which no Farm type classification changed from ’standard gross margins’ (SGM) decision was made. These figures therefore are not the sum total of decisions in typology to standard outputs (SO) typology. 2 favour and decisions upheld. Provisional forecast made in January 2013. Note: Note: Data are taken from management information. Farms shown here are restricted to those with a Standard Output of at least ¤25,000 (from 2009-10) or Standard Labour Requirement of at least 0.5 (2009-10 and before). Sources: Area: June Survey of Agriculture and Horticulture ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Incomes: Farm Business Survey For sole traders and partnerships, Farm Business Arable Farming Income represents the financial return to all unpaid labour (farmers and spouses, non-principal partners Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for and directors and their spouses and family workers) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what and on all their capital invested in the farm business, estimate his Department has made of the average size including land and buildings. For corporate businesses of an arable farm in England in each of the last 10 it represents the financial return on the shareholders years; [160965] capital invested in the farm business. Single farm payment (2) what estimate his Department has made of the and other subsidies are included. The estimate represents average income of an arable farmer in England in each specialist dairy farms, although some income shown of the last 10 years. [160966] above will come from non-dairy enterprises on the farm business. Incomes received by dairy farmers from sources Mr Heath: Estimates of Farm Business Income for external to the farm business are not included. Prior to cereal farms and general cropping farms in England are 2008-09, directors’ remuneration was not deducted in displayed in the following tables alongside average farm the calculation of Farm Business Income. sizes. Gangmasters Licensing Authority Table 1: Incomes and areas of cereal farms in England, 2003-04 to 2012-13 Farm business income Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for At current prices In real terms (at (£) 2012-13 prices) (£) Area (ha) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will give consideration to expanding the remit of the 2003-04 50,000 67,500 221 Gangmasters Licensing Authority to include (a) 2004-05 29,000 38,000 215 courier firms and (b) other smaller industries to ensure 2005-06 29,000 37,000 213 they are given their full employment rights and are 2006-07 46,000 56,500 216 protected against the use of bogus self-employment 2007-08 73,500 86,500 215 contracts. [160496] 2008-09 69,500 79,500 210 2009-10 46,000 52,500 210 Mr Heath: The Government has no plans to extend 2009-101 42,000 48,000 182 the remit of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) 2010-11 85,000 92,500 194 to additional sectors. 151W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 152W

Licensing can be an appropriate response to particular estimate his Department has made of the average size problems in particular sectors, but that does not mean it of a farm in English uplands in each of the last 10 is appropriate in all cases. The GLA is currently years; [160964] implementing changes enabling it to enforce protections for vulnerable workers in agriculture and food processing. (2) what estimate his Department has made of the This is being implemented through better targeting of average income of an uplands farmer in England in seriously non-compliant and criminal operators whilst each of the last 10 years. [160967] reducing burdens on compliant businesses. Hill Farming Mr Heath: An estimate of Farm Business Income for Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for upland farms in England is displayed in the following Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what tables alongside average farm size.

Table 1: Incomes and areas of upland farms in England, 2003-04 to 2012-13 Farm business income At current prices (£) In real terms (at 2012-13 prices) (£) Area (ha)

2003-04 20,000 26,500 178 2004-05 20,500 26,500 174 2005-06 20,000 25,500 175 2006-07 16,000 20,000 177 2007-08 18,500 21,500 176 2008-09 25,500 29,500 179 2009-10 30,500 34,500 183 2009-101 34,000 39,000 188 2010-11 30,000 32,500 195 2011-12 37,000 38,500 198 2012-132 19,000 19,000 194 1 Farm type classification changed from ’standard gross margins’ (SGM) typology to standard outputs (SO) typology. 2 Provisional forecast made in January 2013. Note: Upland farms are defined as being mainly in Severely Disadvantaged Areas (SDA). Farms shown here are restricted to those with a Standard Output of at least ¤25,000 (from 2009-10) or Standard Labour Requirement of at least 0.5 (2009-10 and before). Sources: Incomes: Farm Business Survey Area: June Survey of Agriculture and Horticulture

For sole traders and partnerships, Farm Business late 2014. The MOD has hosted two events in 2013, in Income represents the financial return to all unpaid February and June, to explain the requirement in detail labour (farmers and spouses, non-principal partners to those companies that had expressed an interest in and directors and their spouses and family workers) participating in the project. and on all their capital invested in the farm business, Armoured Fighting Vehicles including land and buildings. For corporate businesses it represents the financial return on the shareholders Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for capital invested in the farm business. Single farm payment Defence what steps his Department is taking to protect and other subsidies are included. The estimate represents vehicles from blast attacks, particularly those that specialist dairy farms, although some income shown target the sides of vehicles. [161420] above will come from non-dairy enterprises on the farm business. Incomes received by dairy farmers from sources Mr Dunne: The armed forces employ a layered approach external to the farm business are not included. Prior to to the protection of its vehicles in order to counter a 2008-09, directors’ remuneration was not deducted in range of threats including blasts. Physical protection the calculation of Farm Business Income. includes armour as one of these layers. Physical protective measures are supplemented by layers that aim to reduce the likelihood of blast attacks occurring in the first DEFENCE place. These include the use of well developed tactics, Armed Forces: Uniforms techniques and procedures and the effective use of intelligence. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what involvement his Department has had Army: Redundancy with the VIRTUS combat body armour project; and if he will make a statement. [161419] Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what army redundancies have taken place in Mr Dunne: VIRTUS is a Ministry of Defence (MOD) each region since May 2010. [161137] project that will deliver an integrated physical protection and load carriage system for personnel operating in Mr Francois: The following table shows the number close combat roles across the armed forces. It will of Regular Army and Gurkha redundancies by region provide scalable protection for the head, torso and between 1 May 2010 and 1 May 2013. Location data are extremities. The project is currently in its assessment based on where personnel were stationed when they left phase, with the main investment decision planned for service. 153W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 154W

A number of personnel were made redundant on John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 11 June 2013; however, validated location data for these what estimate he has made of the proportion of personnel will not be available until August 2013. Figures businesses willing to allow employees to take time off do not include those who have been notified of their to undertake Reservist duties. [161116] redundancy in Tranche 3 of the Army redundancy scheme, of which applicants will leave the Army on or Mr Francois: As part of the consultation following before 17 December 2013 and non-applicants on or the publication in November 2012 of the Green Paper before 17 June 2014. on Future Reserves, we received responses from a wide range of employers and employer organisations. These Region Number of redundancies are being considered as part of the Future Reserves 2020 White Paper which we intend to publish soon. Total 2,840 East Midlands 90 East of England 210 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS London 110 Antibiotics North East 30 North West 90 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland 90 Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he Scotland 100 had on antibiotic resistance at the G8 Science Ministers South East 740 meeting on 12 June 2013. [161150] South West 620 Mr Willetts: There were substantive discussions on Wales 40 antibiotic resistance at the G8 Science Ministers meeting. West Midlands 120 After reviewing the evidence on the increase in antibiotic Yorkshire and the Humber 300 resistance we concluded that antimicrobial resistance is Non-UK 300 a serious global problem affecting humans, animals and of which: Germany 250 the environment that has to be addressed by a wide Cyprus 20 ranging programme of work. Governments and the Note: scientific community have an important role to play, at Totals have been rounded in line with Defence Statistics rounding both a national and international level, in improving policy and may not therefore represent the sum of their parts. practice in all sectors and stimulating research. The Source: Defence Statistics (Army) main areas for action are set out in the ministerial statement at the following link: British Forces Broadcasting Service https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g8-science-ministers- statement Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Apprentices: Kingston Upon Hull Defence what role the British Forces Broadcasting Service currently plays in civilian life; and whether he Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for expects this role to change in the next five years. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many [161409] apprentice (a) starts and (b) completions there were in Hull during each of the last four years for which Mr Francois: The British Forces Broadcasting Service information is available; and in what categories these is provided by the Services Sound and Vision Corporation apprenticeship starts and completions were; [161594] (SSVC), which is both a private company limited by (2) how many apprenticeship (a) starts and (b) guarantee and a registered charity. It offers a range of completions in Hull in the last four years were (i) services to entertain and inform the UK armed forces. advertised and (ii) taken up by each age group. [161595] Following a competition, SSVC was awarded a 10-year contract by the Ministry of Defence to deliver audio Mr Willetts: Information on the number of and audio visual services commencing in April 2013 to apprenticeship starts and achievements by local education Defence personnel and dependents at locations in the authority (including Kingston upon Hull local education UK and overseas. Decisions on other broadcast services authority) and sector subject area (SSA) are published that SSVC might offer that could be received by the in a supplementary table to a quarterly Statistical First general public are primarily a matter for SSVC’s board Release (SFR): of trustees. http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/DBB6E907- BC1A-416C-B6B8-99BEC4D5EFA5/0/ Reserve Forces March2013_ApprenticeshipStartsbySectorSubjectAreaLevelAge.xls http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C7E2EC14- 58AF-43D2-93DF-221C23C2122E/0/ John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence March2013_Apprenticeships_SSA_Geography_Achievements.xls what estimate he has made of the number of reservists Information on the number of apprenticeship starts in the (a) Territorial Army, (b) Royal Navy Reserves, and achievements by local education authority and age (c) Royal Air Force Reserves and (d) Royal Marine are published in a supplementary table to a quarterly Reserves for each of the next five years. [161051] Statistical First Release (SFR): http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/EAD8024F- Mr Francois: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I 3019-4D5C-A6EC-B6241B089862/0/ gave on 12 February 2013, Official Report, column March2013_ApprenticeshipStartsbyGeographyLevelAge.xls 635W, to the hon. Members for Plymouth, Moor View http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/9A549B61- (Alison Seabeck), and for Houghton and Sunderland 8099-4660-8667-0B5ABF6011F8/0/ South (Bridget Phillipson). March2013_ApprenticeshipAchievementsGeographyLevelAge.xls 155W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 156W

Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship vacancies Region Grant funding (£) posted on the National Apprenticeship Service Apprenticeship Vacancies online system located in Kingston 2010-11 — 0 upon Hull between December 2008 (the date the Total 0 apprenticeship vacancy on-line system first went live) and May 2013 (as at end of May 2013). All apprenticeship vacancy adverts posted on the website are open to 2011-12 South East 149,520 individuals of all ages; therefore an age breakdown is London 74,000 not presented. Total 223,520 Table 1: Apprenticeship vacancies posted in Kingston upon Hull, 2008/09 (December 2008 to July 2009) to 2012/13 (August 2012 to May 2013) 2012-13 East of England 5,000 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 2012/131 South West 88,560

Kingston 40 60 240 380 530 North West 77,788 upon Hull Scotland 40,518 1 August 2012 to May 2013 Notes: East Midlands 23,500 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. South East 63,000 2. Geographic information is based on the location of the Apprenticeship vacancy. Yorkshire and Humber 50,000 3. Employers registered on the Apprenticeship Vacancies system can advertise a Total 348,366 vacancy directly on the system or direct candidates to their own website and information is captured in both cases. Information is not captured for vacancies made available by employers who are not registered so therefore these figures may not provide a comprehensive picture of all Apprenticeship vacancies Higher Education: Admissions within an area. 4. Apprenticeship vacancies data are updated on a monthly basis and published by the Data Service on the fourth day of each calendar month at the following Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for link Source: Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps he National Apprenticeship Service Apprenticeship Vacancy Reports (as at end of has taken to encourage people from disadvantaged May 2013) backgrounds to enter higher education. [161395] Online reports from Apprenticeship Vacancies are updated on a monthly basis and published by the Data Mr Willetts: The Government has been very clear Service on at the following link: about the importance of widening participation and http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/Statistics/fe_data_library/ improving fair access in higher education—all those Apprenticeships/ with the ability should have access to higher education, Apprentices: West Midlands irrespective of family income. Under our student finance reforms no eligible student Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for pays up front for their first degree. Loans are only Business, Innovation and Skills how many repaid once graduates have jobs and are earning over apprenticeships started in (a) Warwick District, (b) £21,000. Warwickshire and (c) the West Midlands in each of the last five years. [161750] Our Student Finance and College Tour is running again this year with recent graduates providing students Mr Willetts: Information on the number of and their parents with the information about the student apprenticeship starts by geography is published in a finance available to them. supplementary table to a quarterly Statistical First Release The Government is establishing a new framework, (SFR): with increased responsibility placed on universities to http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/69EFC69B- widen participation. This includes arrangements for C189-46C4-93C4-6B161D744073/0/ new annual access agreements. Universities plan to March2013_Apprenticeship Starts.xls spend over £670 million in 2016/17 on measures to Flood Control widen participation through their access agreements. To make sure that we are doing everything possible to John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for widen participation and promote fair access BIS Ministers Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his asked the Higher Education Funding Council for England Department has made available in grants to businesses (HEFCE) and the Office for Fair Access (OFFA) to developing new flood protection technologies in each develop a shared strategy for access and student success of the last three years; and in which part of the country which will include advice to ensure we achieve the businesses in receipt of such grants were based. maximum impact from spending by Government, HEFCE [161327] and institutions. HEFCE and OFFA are due to deliver the strategy in autumn 2013. An interim report was Mr Willetts: The Technology Strategy Board is the published on 8 March 2013. Government’s prime channel for supporting business-led technology innovation and delivers a range of programmes in support of businesses undertaking research and Higher Education: Barnsley development. The Technology Strategy Board has supported a Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for number of projects in the area of flood protection Business, Innovation and Skills how many people from technologies in the last three years with grant funding Barnsley East constituency went on to university in offered to businesses totalling over £571,000. The split academic year (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) by year and region is as follows: 2012-13. [161068] 157W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 158W

Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency Science: Finance (HESA) collects and publishes data on students at UK Higher Education Institutions (HEIs). The numbers of Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for entrants to UK HEIs who were domiciled in Barnsley Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment East constituency prior to their course have been provided he has made of the relationship between funding in the table for the academic years 2010/11 and 2011/12. science and securing future economic growth. [161504] Information for the 2012/13 academic year will become available from the Higher Education Statistics Agency Mr Willetts: Science is crucial for long-term economic in January 2014. growth. In December 2011 BIS published the Innovation Entrants1 to UK HEIs domiciled to Barnsley East2 prior to their course and Research Strategy for Growth, accompanied by an academic years 2010/11 to 2011/12 economics paper that provided a detailed assessment of Barnsley East constituency the impact of science and innovation on the UK economy.

2010/11 860 Investment in science drives sustainable economic 2011/12 755 growth through its contribution to productivity and 1 Covers all students in their first year of study. international competitiveness. Studies have found a strong, 2 Parliamentary constituency is derived from the student’s postcode. positive relationship between investment in Research Note: and Development (R&D) and productivity growth. The Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. broad consensus typically indicates a rate of return Source: from R&D of between 20% and 50%. Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record The position is kept under close review, and all proposed In reference to my previous answer to the hon. Member science investments by BIS are, as a matter of course, for Barnsley East on 21 May 2012, Official Report, subject to an assessment of their expected future economic column 519W, it was necessary to provide statistics impact. excluding the Open University and using the 1 December snapshot of student numbers rather than the final published Science: Wales totals. This is because a time series had been requested covering years prior to a change to the standard reported Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for population (SPR) of students. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions Figures in the table are not comparable with the he has had with his Welsh counterpart regarding plans figures provided in May 2012, The snapshot numbers for the new Menai Science Park, Bangor. [161569] tend to be lower than the SRP statistics published by HESA which capture the full range of start dates across Mr Willetts: The Government believes that science the academic year. If we had provided estimates consistent and research parks can be important to both local and with the numbers in my previous answer they would national competitiveness by supporting commercialisation have been 735 for 2010/11 and 625 for 2011/12. of research and development. Government can play its part by removing key barriers to development, for example Postgraduate Education by addressing restrictive planning laws, ensuring a modern infrastructure, supporting the supply of highly skilled workers and addressing barriers to capital. Actions on Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for these issues were summarised in our Innovation and Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Research Strategy for Growth. made of ease of access to postgraduate education for To date, no discussions have taken place between the students from low-income backgrounds. [161278] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), Mr Willetts: Linked to the National Student Survey and his Welsh counterpart regarding plans for the new (NSS), the Higher Education Funding Council for England Menai Science Park, Bangor. (HEFCE) has commissioned a survey to understand from final-year undergraduates what their post-graduation Students: Loans plans are, and what would motivate them to pursue or deter them from postgraduate study—‘The Intentions After Graduation Survey’ (IAGS). HEFCE will be able Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State to analyse IAGS responses by many established measures, for Business, Innovation and Skills what the including socio-economic background. A report of the Government’s policy is on the privatisation of student results of the 2013 IAGS will be published in the loans. [160709] autumn. Mr Willetts: The Government is committed to reducing BIS has also asked HEFCE and the Office for Fair public sector net debt, managing financial risks and Access (OFFA) to develop a national strategy for access achieving value for money for the tax payer. In the 2010 and student success in higher education An interim Budget, the Government announced its intention to report can be found at the following link: continue with the Student Debt Sale Programme of http://www.hefce.ac.uk/news/newsarchive/2013/ ICR loans as part of a wider programme of asset name,78843,en.html commercialisation. This work is still ongoing. HEFCE will continue to gather evidence on the role and nature of postgraduate provision, and the potential Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State impact of higher education funding changes on graduate for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions his choices, as part of its monitoring of the overall effect of officials have had on the potential privatisation of these reforms. student loans. [160710] 159W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 160W

Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation Public Expenditure and Skills is continuing to explore options to sell the income contingent repayment (ICR) student loan books Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of the Government’s wider programme of asset Transport what assessment he has made of the equality commercialisation. impact of his Department’s spending reductions since Our plans to sell the earlier mortgage style loans were 2010; whether this assessment has been used to inform announced in March 2013. his planning ahead of the 2013 comprehensive spending review and with what result; what plans he Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State has to publish the equality impact assessments for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions his undertaken by his Department as a result of the officials have had on lifting the cap on interest rates for upcoming comprehensive spending review; and if he student loans. [160711] will make a statement. [161183] Mr Willetts: The Government received proposals in 2011 from its advisers that the cap on interest rates on Norman Baker: The Department for Transport considers student loans should be removed as part of a possible equality issues in exercising its functions, including at sale of the loan book. The Government rejected these Spending Reviews, both to comply with equality legislation proposals. and to ensure it understands how its activities will affect different people. This consideration will be published in due course. TRANSPORT Public Transport: Tickets Bridges: River Thames

Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will publish his Department’s health Transport how many Integrated Transport Smartcard impact assessment for the new lower Thames crossing Organisation cards were issued in England between April 2006 and March 2013; and how many passenger proposed option C. [161143] trips were made during that period by people receiving Stephen Hammond: The Department has not completed (a) concessionary and (b) non-concessionary cards. specific health impact assessments for the potential [160942] options for a new lower Thames crossing. It has however appraised a wide range of potential impacts—for example, Norman Baker: The Department does not hold any in relation to air quality—of locating a new crossing at information in relation to Integrated Transport Smartcard different locations. Organisation (ITSO) cards issued by bus operators for These assessments are included in the final review use with commercial products. report and supporting documentation published on In 2006/07 and 2007/08 the statutory minimum 21 May 2013 at the launch of the Department’s consultation concession in England for older and disabled people on options for a new crossing. They are available at: provided free off-peak bus travel within the card holder’s https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/options-for-a- local authority area. Local authorities could issue cards new-lower-thames-crossing of their own design and there was no legal requirement Once a decision is made on location, a future scheme for a card to be an ITSO smartcard. The Department for a new lower Thames crossing would be subject to a does not hold information about the number of ITSO detailed environmental impact assessment as part of cards that were issued in relation to the statutory concession the statutory planning process. at that time. Invalid Vehicles In 2008 the statutory minimum was extended to England-wide travel and it became a legal requirement Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for that local authorities should issue cards of a specific Transport if he will bring forward legislative proposals design. The legislation includes a requirement that each to amend the Road Traffic Act 1988 to increase the card should be an ITSO smartcard and that the expiry weight limit of Class 3 wheelchairs from 150kg to date of a card should be no greater than 5 years from the date of issue. 200kg. [161072] Since 2008 around 22 million ITSO smartcards have Norman Baker: There are no plans to increase the been issued in relation to the statutory scheme. This unladen weight limit of Class 3 wheelchairs from 150kgs figure is greater than the estimated 10 million valid to 200kgs. ITSO cards in circulation at 31 March 2013, as the I announced on 1 March 2012 [Official Report, Column majority of ITSO cards issued in 2008 will have expired 44WS] that the maximum unladen weight of Class 2 and been reissued at least once. In relation to these powered wheelchairs should be increased to 150 kgs. I ITSO cards only, we estimate that around 1 billion have asked my officials to look at how best the Use of concessionary journeys were made each year in 2010/11, Invalid Carriages on Highways Regulations 1988 can be 2011/12 and 2012/13 - the relevant published table is amended to reflect this, and I will make an announcement BUS0821 which can be found at shortly. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/bus08- The primary legislation governing the use of invalid concessionary-travel carriages is the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons The Department does not hold this information prior Act 1990, not the Road Traffic Act 1988. to 2010/11. 161W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 162W

Railways: Electrification Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not undertake assessments of capacity on individual routes; however, Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for it is well known that the west coast main line is one of Transport when he expects construction work to the busiest routes on the network. commence on electrification of the North Allocation of capacity on the west coast main line is a Transpennine rail route. [161617] matter for the operators that use the route, Network Rail and the Office of Rail Regulation. Mr Simon Burns: Construction commences later this year with bridge reconstruction works between Manchester and Stalybridge. HOME DEPARTMENT Rescue Services: Belfast Apprentices

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the Transport on what date the risk-assessed staffing level Home Department how many apprentices are at MRCC Belfast was last altered. [161628] employed by her Department; and how many of those are aged (a) under 19, (b) 19 to 25, (c) 26 to 30, (d) Stephen Hammond: The risk assessed staffing level 31 to 59 and (e) over 60. [161162] for MRCC Belfast was last altered on 11 March 2013. Social Enterprises James Brokenshire [holding answer 24 June 2013]: The Home Department’s apprenticeship scheme has been in operation since 2008 and the Department currently Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for has seven apprentices recruited externally through this Transport how many of his Department’s suppliers are route. All the apprentices are aged 25 or under, but to social enterprises. [161325] provide a further breakdown would breach the Department’s obligations under the Data Protection Norman Baker: The Department for Transport does Act 1998 not to disclose, to a third party, personal not currently maintain a record of Social Enterprises in information about another person. our supply chain. Apprenticeships are also available to existing staff We do maintain a copy of the Charities Commission through Learning and Development provision. database and use this to classify suppliers who are Agreement for staff to complete an apprenticeship registered charities but this does not unfortunately identify qualification is controlled locally, and therefore no central Social Enterprises. data is available. Termination of Employment Asylum

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Transport on how many occasions (a) a compromise Home Department what the average time taken for a agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial decision on asylum was for (a) male and (b) female mediation was used when an employee of (i) his applicants in each of the last 10 years. [159915] Department and (ii) the public bodies for which he is responsible left their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) Mr Harper: The information you have requested is 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13; and if he will make a shown in the table. Data prior to 2007 is not available statement. [160914] and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Norman Baker: The following table provides a breakdown Asylum application average processing times, 2007-12 as requested in the financial years 2010, 2011 and 2012. Days A further breakdown to individual bodies has not been Male Female Unclassified Overall provided to protect the confidentiality of the individuals 2007 186 165 332 180 involved. This is in line with the Data Protection Act. 2008 216 196 281 210 2009 148 132 146 143 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2010 69 64 123 68 2011 74 77 70 75 Compromise agreements (all of which 21 12 10 are assumed to contain a confidentiality 2012 59 60 33 59 clause) for the Department and its Notes: agencies 1. All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are Compromise agreements (all of which 7<58therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been are assumed to contain a confidentiality quality assured under National Statistics protocols. clause) for the non-departmental public 2. Figures relate to first time main applicants only. bodies 3. Figures relate to asylum applications made between 1 January 2007 and 31 December 2012. Judicial mediations (total for the <5 0 <5 4. Processing time based on mean average number of calendar days between Department, agencies and associated application and first case outcome date. NDPBs) 5. Unclassified relate to cases where the sex of the applicant is not recorded. West Coast Railway Line Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the average length of time Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for taken to process settlement applications made by Transport what recent assessment he has made of asylum seekers was between 1 October and capacity on the West Coast Main Line. [161494] 31 December 2012. [161010] 163W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 164W

Mr Harper [holding answer 24 June 2013]: Of the 57 Because of the Home Office’s application of prompt settlement applications that were received and decided payment policies, no assessment of potential financial between 1 October and 31 December 2012, the average benefit has been made. length for an application to be decided was 17 calendar days. Crime Notes: 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information Home Department what estimate she has made of the has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. monetary value of (a) drug trafficking, (b) human 2. Figures relate to asylum main applicants. trafficking, (c) money laundering and (d) tax 3. Figures relate to applications made for settlement, by individuals avoidance in the (i) world economy, (ii) European that have made an application for asylum. economy and (iii) UK economy in the last year for 4. Processing time is based on the average number of calendar which figures are available. [160822] days between application raised (received) and despatch date. Mr Harper: The latest assessments for which figures Bedfordshire Police are available are set out as follows: (a) The Home Office has not undertaken an estimate of the Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost of drug trafficking to the world, European and UK economies. The most recent available Home Office estimate of the social and Home Department what the budget of Bedfordshire economic cost of Class A drug use in England and Wales was Police was in each year since 2010. [161382] undertaken by the last Government and was £15.4 billion per year and £4 billion to £6.6 billion for the size of the UK illicit drug Damian Green [holding answer 24 June 2013]: The market (both based on the reference year 2003-04). Home Office does not hold details of the full budget for (b) The Home Office has not undertaken an estimate of the Bedfordshire police as this includes funding from other cost of human trafficking to the world, European and UK sources such as the use of reserves and from charging economies. The most recent available Home Office estimate of the for additional services. social and economic cost of human trafficking for sexual exploitation in the UK was undertaken by the last Government and was up to The allocations of Police Main Grant provided by £1 billion per year and £275 million for the size of the UK human the Home Office to Bedfordshire Police were £42.6 million trafficking for sexual exploitation market (2003). in 2010-11, £43.9 million in 2011-12 and £40.8 million (c) The Home Office has not undertaken an estimate of the in 2012-13. In 2013-14, the aggregate amount of grants cost of money laundering to the world, European and UK provided to Bedfordshire police by the Home Office is economies. The most recent estimate is a HM Treasury assessment £69.9 million (which includes £25.4 million in formula undertaken by the last Government in 2007 which estimated that grant funding which in previous years had been paid to in the UK the most serious forms of organised crime alone the police by the Department for Communities and generate an illicit turnover of some £15 billion per year; and that Local Government but from 2013-14 onwards is being money laundering through the regulated sector was about £10 paid by the Home Office). billion per year. (d) The Government does make an estimate of the size of the Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK tax gap each year, which includes an assessment of the level of avoidance. The latest figures published as official statistics are Home Department what assessment she has made of for 2010-11 and can be found at: the cost-effectiveness of Bedfordshire Police. [161693] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/tax-gaps/mtg-2012.pdf Damian Green: It is locally elected police and crime The Government keeps these estimates under review. commissioners (PCCs) who are responsible for the delivery of an effective and efficient police service within the Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the force area, including an assessment of use of resources. Home Department what the most recent annual It is also the responsibility of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate average level of serious and acquisitive crime per 1,000 of Constabulary (HMIC) which is charged in statute population in each police force in England and with inspecting the efficiency and effectiveness of all Wales is. [161695] police forces in England and Wales. Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is shown in the following table. Billing Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in 2012 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Rate per 1,000 population 1 2 Home Department what assessment her Department Police force area Serious crime Acquisitive crime has made of the potential financial benefits that could Avon and Somerset 15 32 be achieved by paying suppliers early in return for Bedfordshire 12 31 rebates. [160961] Cambridgeshire 11 34 Cheshire 13 28 James Brokenshire [holding answer 24 June 2013]: City of London — — The Home Office and its Agencies have signed up to the Cleveland 15 36 Confederation of British Industry’s (CBI) prompt payment Cumbria 12 19 code and BS7890, the British standard for payment. Derbyshire 12 26 Since June 2010, the contractual terms and conditions Devon and Cornwall 15 22 of payment require the Home Office to pay supplier’s Dorset 10 30 invoices within five days of accepting relevant goods Durham 10 26 and services, or from receiving a compliant invoice. Dyfed-Powys 10 13 165W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 166W

Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in 2012 Persons arrested for notifiable drug offences by police force area: England and Rate per 1,000 population Wales, 2007-08 to 2011-12 Police force area Serious crime1 Acquisitive crime2 Number Police force area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Essex 13 32 Gloucestershire 9 29 Cheshire 952 1,327 1,542 1,430 1,345 Greater Manchester 15 37 Cumbria 833 913 793 867 929 Gwent 13 30 Greater 5,323 5,706 6,089 6,753 5,720 Manchester Hampshire 15 27 Lancashire 4,250 4,575 5,149 5,066 4,856 Hertfordshire 10 24 Merseyside 6,767 7,879 9,309 10,084 9,366 Humberside 16 36 North West 18,125 20,400 22,882 24,200 22,216 Kent 13 29 Region Lancashire 16 32 Leicestershire 13 31 Humberside 1,342 1,347 1,325 1,412 1,362 Lincolnshire 11 30 North Yorkshire 1,234 1,750 1,578 1,441 1,796 Merseyside 11 32 South Yorkshire 2,542 2,591 2,935 2,863 2,559 Metropolitan police 20 56 West Yorkshire 3,878 4,210 4,685 4,271 4,580 Norfolk 12 20 Yorkshire and 8,996 9,898 10,523 9,987 10,297 Northamptonshire 15 37 the Humber Northumbria 9 24 Region North Wales 16 25 North Yorkshire 10 23 Derbyshire 1,033 1,302 1.528 1,536 1,502 Nottinghamshire 14 34 Leicestershire 1,027 1,199 1,315 1.179 918 South Wales 14 34 Lincolnshire 828 1,075 1,046 2,239 1,616 South Yorkshire 10 42 Northamptonshire 628 703 810 981 904 Staffordshire 15 25 Nottinghamshire 2,561 2,378 2,510 2,802 2,137 Suffolk 14 27 East Midlands 6,077 6,657 7,209 8,737 7,077 Surrey 9 23 Region Sussex 12 31 Thames Valley 12 33 Staffordshire 1,808 1,501 1,613 1,515 1,650 Warwickshire 10 34 Warwickshire 355 431 665 584 469 West Mercia 12 26 West Mercia 1,117 1,431 1,332 1,371 1,643 West Midlands 13 34 West Midlands 4,766 5,213 4,962 4,263 4,080 West Yorkshire 12 45 West Midlands 8,046 8,576 8,572 7,733 7,842 Wiltshire 11 26 Region ‘—’ = Not applicable due to the small resident population. 1 Includes the offence groups of violence against the person and sexual offences. 2 Includes the offence groups of robbery, burglary, offences against vehicles and Bedfordshire 735 830 829 1,069 989 other theft. Cambridgeshire 1,090 1,098 1,146 1,278 1.288 Drugs: Crime Essex 2,308 2,779 2,716 2,876 2,435 Hertfordshire 2,044 2,395 2,997 2,841 2,616 Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Norfolk 1,199 1,146 1,073 1,222 1,127 Home Department how many arrests for drugs Suffolk 703 948 777 705 691 offences there have been in each police force area in East of England 8,079 9,196 9,538 9,991 9,146 Region each of the last five years. [161692]

Damian Green: Data on arrests for notifiable offences London, City of 441 302 326 381 573 in England and Wales are collected by the Home Office Metropolitan 22,431 25,034 25,730 27,415 26,749 and published on an annual basis in the National Statistics Police series ’Police Powers and Procedures’. The latest release, London Region 22,872 25,336 26,056 27,796 27,322 relating to the years up to and including 2011-12, is available in the Library of the House and online at: Hampshire 2,471 2.751 3,297 3,069 2,686 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-powers- Kent 2,782 3,093 3,323 2,707 2.214 and-procedures-in-england-and-wales-201112 Surrey 1,269 1,167 835 1,002 2.333 The number of arrests for drug offences in the years Sussex 2,306 2,247 2,505 2,537 2,558 2007-08 to 2011-12 are shown in the following table. Thames Valley 4,739 4,860 4,537 4.069 3,672 Data for 2012-13 are expected to be published in the South East 13,567 14,118 14,497 13,384 13,463 spring of 2014. Region Persons arrested for notifiable drug offences by police force area: England and Wales, 2007-08 to 2011-12 Avon and 2,192 2,395 2.573 3,140 4,990 Somerset Number Devon and 2,204 2.114 2,611 2.825 2,356 Police force area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Cornwall Cleveland 1,211 1,544 1,889 1,757 1,563 Dorset 1,108 1,072 1,069 1,029 960 Durham 838 1,068 1,025 1,084 836 Gloucestershire 825 1,114 1,257 952 918 Northumbria 3,732 4,220 4,101 4,712 4.813 Wiltshire 399 614 526 440 365 North East 5,781 6,832 7,015 7,553 7,212 South West 6,728 7,309 8,036 8,386 9,589 Region Region 167W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 168W

Persons arrested for notifiable drug offences by police force area: England and Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by top 50 Wales, 2007-08 to 2011-12 sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 Number Number Police force area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total

England 98,271 108,322 114,328 117,767 114,164 23 Victor Hochhauser 440 330 — 1,540 24 AEG Live (UK) Ltd 265 335 320 1,520 Dyfed-Powys 1,351 1,411 1,768 1,897 2,013 25 GTI Recruiting Solutions 155 340 430 1,420 Gwent 829 1,015 1,100 1,204 1,336 26 Hidden Talent Booking 295 305 190 1,390 North Wales 1,523 1,735 1,086 1,021 777 27 SJM Concerts Ltd 275 320 155 1,345 South Wales 2,558 2,859 2,684 3,048 2,953 28 Warner Music (UK) Ltd 225 315 240 1,320 29 Serious Ltd 225 270 315 1,305 30 ATP Concerts Ltd 315 190 290 1,300 Wales 6,261 7,020 6,638 7,170 7,079 31 Academy of Medical Royal 170 290 350 1,270 Colleges England and 104,532 115,342 120,966 124,937 121,243 32 Caroline Dunkley DJ and 85 305 475 1,255 Wales Artist Management 33 Lattitude Global 250 260 225 1,245 Entry Clearances Volunteering 34 Youth With A Mission Ltd 210 270 240 1,195 35 Sony Music Entertainment 210 200 305 1,120 Sir James Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK Ltd Home Department how many certificates of 36 Upset The Rhythm 180 250 215 1,080 sponsorship for tier 5 visas have been issued by each 37 British Council (Language 250 190 200 1,080 sponsoring body in each of the last three years. Assistants) [158968] 38 Academy Music Group 195 235 175 1,035 39 Southbank Centre 190 190 260 1,020 Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: We are 40 Free Trade Organisation 215 175 235 1,015 unable to provide the data regarding all tier 5 sponsors 41. Ecorys UK Ltd 250 150 150 950 as the low volume of certificates issued by a third of 42 Feld Entertainment UK 165 185 230 930 them would make it possible to identify individuals or Ltd 43 T&S Immigration Services — 195 535 925 personal data. Ltd The following table shows how many certificates of 44 Kennedy Street Enterprises 175 185 190 910 sponsorship (CoS) for tier 5 visas have been issued by Ltd the top 50 sponsors in each of the last three years. This 45 Bob Paterson Agency/ 135 175 285 905 information has also been placed in the House Library. BPAA Live 46 Mountbatten Programmes 190 180 160 905 Number of CoS used in support of Tier 5 visa applications issued by top 50 Ltd sponsors from 1 January 2010 to 31 December 2012 47 The Law Society of 160 180 200 880 Number England and Wales Sponsoring organisation 2010 2011 2012 Total 48 Elastic Artists Agency Ltd 165 160 225 875 49 CME Artist Services 35 160 400 790 1 The Agency Group Ltd 1,450 1,755 1,710 8,120 50 British Council (Erasmus 75 170 280 770 2 The Underworld 1,000 1,190 1,330 5,715 Programme) 3 Creative Artists Agency 840 1,015 1,115 4,825 Notes: UK Ltd 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information and are 4 Live Nation (Music) UK 795 705 1,065 4,065 therefore provisional and subject to change. This information has not been Ltd quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 5 Gricind Ltd T/A ITB 925 655 555 3,720 2. Figures relate to Certificates of Sponsorship issued to applicants by sponsoring bodies, and used in support of tier 5 visa applications. 6 William Morris Endeavor 610 800 735 3,560 3. Figures rounded to the nearest 5 (— = 0,*=1or2)andmaynotsumtothe Entertainment (UK) Ltd totals shown because of independent rounding. 7 Culture Arts Ltd 705 705 555 3,370 8 X-R Touring LLP 750 640 540 3,325 9 Bunac 490 660 905 3,205 Heathrow Airport 10 Universal Music 620 585 590 3,000 Operations Ltd Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the 11 Primary Talent 545 445 600 2,575 International Ltd Home Department what procedure is in place for exit 12 P & IAs Ltd 380 620 565 2,570 checks on passengers departing from Heathrow 13 Godolphin Management 355 540 635 2,425 Terminal 4. [160750] Company Ltd 14 Askonas Holt 495 380 495 2,245 Mr Harper: Home Office Immigration Enforcement 15 The Church of Jesus Christ 445 415 480 2,200 regularly conducts manual embarkation checks on of Latter-Day Saints (Great Britain) passengers on an intelligence-led basis, targeting 16 Coda Music Agency LLP 360 510 455 2,200 routes which are known to be used by immigration 17 Mean Fiddler Holdings 330 445 560 2,110 offenders. This ensures that immigration offenders are Ltd prevented from returning to the UK for a defined 18 Classical Events Ltd 590 280 180 1,920 period. Embarkation checks can be conducted at any 19 3a Entertainment Ltd 390 370 375 1,895 port, including Terminal 4 at London Heathrow. More 20 Sadler’s Wells Trust Ltd 440 405 185 1,880 generally, the use of advance passenger information 21 Tin Angel Productions Ltd 270 385 430 1,740 supports our ability to undertake effective exit checks as 22 IMG Artists (UK) Ltd 400 265 395 1,730 passengers leave the UK. 169W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 170W

Human Trafficking Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what amount her Department spent on advertising to raise awareness of human Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the trafficking in each of the last five years. [160983] Home Department how many (a) adult and (b) children subjected to human trafficking have been detained while leaving the UK to go to Ireland in each Mr Harper: The table sets out the amount spent by the Home Office and the UK Human Trafficking Centre of the last 10 years. [160833] on raising awareness of human trafficking during the last five years. Mr Harper: This information is not collected centrally. The Common Travel Area (CTA) is based on the principle £ that once a person has been granted leave to enter one part of the CTA, they will not normally require leave to 2009 enter another part of it while that leave is still valid. Blue Blindfold Campaign Launch 15,000 Targeted operations may be conducted where intelligence identifies a particular risk. 2012 Redistribution of an awareness and education toolkit for 5,500 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the professionals on ‘internal trafficking’ Home Department what recent meetings (a) she and Contribution to the Lord Mayor’s office evaluation on 4,000 (b) her ministerial colleagues have had with their the multi-agency activities for the 2012 Olympics and foreign counterparts on improving international Paralympics co-operation in tackling human trafficking. [160931] National campaign on labour trafficking conducted by 30,000 Crimestoppers

Mr Harper: Home Office Ministers and officials have 2013 meetings with a wide variety of international partners, as well as organisations and individuals in the public Funding for NSPCC for awareness-raising activities for 10,000 front-line professionals and private sectors, as part of the process of policy Funding for Eaves for awareness-raising activities for 43,762 development and delivery. Details of these meetings are frontline professionals published on the Cabinet Office website on a quarterly Funding for Stop the Traffik for awareness-raising 20,512 basis. activities for front-line professionals Conference on human trafficking and UK industry held 18,353.34 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the on 18 March 2013 Home Department what consideration she has given to Redraft and reprint of the police operational handbook 4,669.26 developing multi-country specialist training for the purpose of tackling human trafficking. [160980] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what research her Department has Mr Harper: The UK works with other member states commissioned on human trafficking in each of the last to share best practice and to strengthen its response to 10 years for which data is available. [160984] tackling trafficking, including sharing knowledge and information on training for a range of front-line Mr Harper: Home Office research commissioned in professionals who may come into contact with potential the last 10 years, on human trafficking, is set out as trafficking victims. follows: ’An evidence assessment of the routes of human trafficking Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the into the UK’ (2012) Home Department what protocols are in place to Kevin Marsh, Rashmi Sarmah, Phil Davies, Emma Froud, improve data collection across Europe on human Jacque Mallender, Elizabeth Scalia, Tony Munton (Matrix Knowledge trafficking. [160981] Group) With Andrew Zurawan, Laura Powlton, and Carolyne Tah (Analysis, Research and Knowledge Management, UK Border Agency) Mr Harper: The UK works with other member states https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/an-evidence- to share best practice and improve data collection assessment-of-the-routes-of-human-trafficking-into-the-uk techniques, through a number of informal and formal EU networks. The UK is a key contributor of human Interviews with prisoners convicted of HT offences to trafficking data to EU data collection processes. understand market dynamics (2009) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/organised- immigration-crime-a-post-conviction-study Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many victims of human Process review of Operation Pentameter (HT for sexual trafficking who are owed wages by employers have been exploitation) (2008) (a) granted, (b) denied access to those wages by the http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/ courts. [160982] http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/horr07b.pdf ‘Trafficking for the purposes of labour exploitation: a Mr Harper: There are no central records maintained literature review’ (2007) of the number of victims of human trafficking who are Samantha Dowling, Karen Moreton and Leila Wright owed wages by employers, where they have either been http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/ granted or denied access to those wages by the court. rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/rdsolr1007.pdf 171W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 172W

Project Acumen: Setting the record—The trafficking of manage and process applications under this system. migrant women in England and Wales for off-street This helps them to identify those who might have been prostitution. August 2010) trafficked and understand the steps that should be http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/crime/2010/ taken to safeguard possible victims. In addition, seminars 201008CRITMW01.pdf and conferences may be arranged with local partners in Additional research has also been commissioned by countries where there is a known threat. the Association of Chief Police Officers, Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre and United Kingdom Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Human Trafficking Centre. Home Department what definition of the term forced labour her Department uses for the purposes of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the tackling human trafficking; and whether she has any Home Department what steps she has taken to raise plans to change that definition. [161059] awareness of human trafficking in the (a) agriculture, (b) restaurant, (c) entertainment, (d) health and Mr Harper: The Crown Prosecution Service has issued beauty and (e) construction industries. [160986] legal guidance to prosecutors on human trafficking for forced labour arising under section 4 of the Asylum and Mr Harper: The Government recognises that the Immigration Act 2004 and for the stand alone offence private sector has an important role to play in tackling of requiring a person to perform forced or compulsory human trafficking and exploitation. labour, arising under section 71 of the Coroners and The Government held a conference with industry in Justice Act 2009. For both offences, there is reference to March 2013. This highlighted the need for businesses the definitions outlined in Article 4 of the European and their employees to be aware of the potential for Convention on Human Rights which, for forced labour, human trafficking to occur and what they should do if are as interpreted by the International Labour Organisation they suspect someone is a victim of trafficking. (ILO) Conventions. The Gangmasters Licensing Authority continues to These define forced or compulsory labour as being: provide best practice guidance and briefing to the agriculture ’all work or service which is exacted from any person under the and food processing sectors, including companies in menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily’. their supply chains. There have been successful prosecutions brought for Work to raise the awareness of businesses in a number both trafficking for forced labour and for the stand of sectors is ongoing. alone offence of forced labour. There are no plans to change that definition. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will take steps to raise Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the awareness of human trafficking among teachers. Home Department how many people have been [160987] trafficked for the purpose of removal of organs in each of the last 10 years. [161061] Mr Harper: The Government recognises the importance of raising awareness of human trafficking among a Mr Harper: Since the establishment of the National wide range of front-line professionals, including teachers. Referral Mechanism (NRM), on 1 April 2013, there The Joint Strategic Group on Human Trafficking, have been three potential victims of trafficking referred comprised of Government officials and non-governmental to the NRM who reported organ harvesting as the main organisation representatives, is currently considering exploitation type. Data are not held prior to this date. how training and awareness-raising can be improved for front-line professionals who may come into contact with potential victims of trafficking. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent discussions she has had Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the with her Irish counterpart on the establishment of a Home Department if she will consider issuing leaflets European hotline for the purposes of tackling human on human trafficking when work permits are issued. trafficking. [161062] [161023] Mr Harper: The Home Office has not discussed the Mr Harper: Work routes are generally managed under establishment of a European hotline for the purposes of the points based system. Those applying under this tackling human trafficking with the Irish Government. system have access to detailed guidance on the Home There are no plans to introduce a human trafficking Office website and local country sites and a telephone hotline. Individuals wishing to report suspicions of and email service. The Home Office will consider if the trafficking should contact the Crimestoppers hotline, information we provide on the dangers of trafficking the Metropolitan Police Service human trafficking phone can be improved through the use of leaflets. line or their local police force.

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what seminars are held on human Home Department how many alleged victims of trafficking for staff processing work permits. [161025] human trafficking have been deported in each of the last 10 years. [161063] Mr Harper: Work routes are generally managed under the points based system. Human trafficking training is Mr Harper: The UK Border Agency began recording mandatory for all UK Visas and Immigration staff who information on victims of trafficking in a reportable 173W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 174W format on 1 April 2009. From 1 April 2009 to 30 April Mechanism since April 2009, are published on the 2013, fewer than five victims of trafficking have had an Serious Organised Crime Agency website: enforced removal from the UK. www.soca.gov.uk/about-soca/about-the-ukhtc/national- Notes: referral-mechanism/statistics 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This information Home Department what rules govern access to the has not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. 45-day recovery and reflection period for victims of 2. Data relate to individuals removed after being deemed to have human trafficking; and whether she has any plans to been a victim of trafficking. change (a) the rules on access or (b) the length of time 3. Data relate to main applicants and dependants. allowed for recovery and reflection. [161128] 4. Figures rounded to the nearest five. Mr Harper: Detailed information on the rules governing Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the access to the extendable 45-day recovery and reflection Home Department what co-operation her Department period can be found in the Home Office guidance for has with the European Migration Network’s Common competent authorities: Research Template to tackle human trafficking. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ [161064] policyandlaw/asylumprocessguidance/specialcases/guidance/ competent-guidance?view=Binary. Mr Harper: The Home Office is currently co-ordinating This guidance is currently being updated. There are the response to the common research template for human no plans to change the rules on access or the length of trafficking. The response, which will take the form of a the recovery and reflection period, which is longer than national report, will be published on the European the 30 day minimum stipulated by the Council of Europe Migration Network’s website in September. Convention and can be extended in cases where there are high levels of trauma or acute support needs. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will consider using social Home Department when she last met the Director of networking sites to raise awareness of indicators of Public Prosecutions to discuss human trafficking. human trafficking. [161065] [161267]

Mr Harper: The Government recognises the importance Mr Harper: The Solicitor-General, my hon. and learned of raising awareness of human trafficking among the Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver public and front-line professionals through a range of Heald), representing the Attorney-General, my right media, including social networking sites. Work to raise hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield awareness is ongoing and includes consideration of the (Mr Grieve) who is responsible for appointing the Director target audience and the most appropriate media channels of Public Prosecutions, is a member of the Inter- available. Departmental Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking. The Group oversees the UK’s response to tackling Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the trafficking, including prosecutions and convictions. Home Department if she will take steps to raise Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the awareness of human trafficking in migrant Home Department pursuant to the answer of 4 June communities. [161066] 2013, Official Report, column 1077W, on human trafficking, what amount was awarded by government Mr Harper: The Government recognises the importance grant to the (a) Refugee Council and (b) Children’s of raising awareness of human trafficking among the Society for the purpose of scoping the practical care public and, in particular, migrant communities. Government arrangements for trafficked children. [161411] officials work with a number of non-governmental organisations to support their activities in raising awareness Mr Harper: £44,266, in total, was paid to the Refugee among communities at a local and regional level. Council and The Children’s Society for a joint bid to The Home Office also regularly issues messages about undertake the scoping review on the practical care the danger of illegal working and trafficking. There arrangements for trafficked children. have also been targeted information campaigns on migrants’ employment rights such as through the Home Office Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the and TUC dissemination of leaflets to East European Home Department who monitors the performance of workers following the 2004 accession. the UK national rapporteur on human trafficking. [161466]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: The Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group Home Department how many (a) male and (b) female (IDMG) on human trafficking is the UK’s national (i) adults and (ii) children were victims of human rapporteur equivalent mechanism. The first IDMG Group trafficking in each of the last 10 years for which data report, published on 18 October 2012, was the subject are available. [161067] of a Westminster Hall debate held on 20 December 2012. As Chair of the Group and Minister responsible Mr Harper: Data on the number of male and female for policy on human trafficking I also attended a recent adult victims of human trafficking and the number of Home Affairs Select Committee enquiry into human male and female child victims of human trafficking, trafficking. I and my fellow Minister am accountable to who have been referred into the National Referral Parliament for the performance of the IDMG. 175W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 176W

Human Trafficking Ministerial Group Mr Harper: The following table sets out each Department/Government represented on the Inter- Departmental Ministerial Group and the incumbent Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the member, for each meeting held. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 4 June Other Ministers may, from time to time, attend meetings 2013, Official Report, column 1077W, on human of the group, as required. Membership of this group trafficking, what the name is of each other member of will be kept under review. The following table sets out the inter-ministerial team on human trafficking; and each Department/Government represented on the Inter- how many and what proportion of meetings each has Departmental Ministerial Group and the incumbent attended since the team’s establishment. [161452] member, for each meeting held.

2011 2012 2013 Department/Government and incumbent member 17 February 11 October 17 April 17 September 11 March 17 June

Home Office (Mark Harper MP—Chair) Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Home Office (Jeremy Browne MP) — — — Yes No No Home Office (Lynne Featherstone) Yes No No — — — Attorney-General’s Office (Oliver Heald QC MP) Yes No No No Yes Yes Scotland Office (Rt Hon David Mundell) No No No No No Yes Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) Yes Yes Yes No Yes Yes Northern Ireland Executive (David Ford MLA) No No Yes Yes Yes Yes Scotland Government (Kenny MacAskill) Yes No No Yes No No Wales Government (Lesley Griffiths AM) No No No No Yes No Ministry of Justice (Helen Grant MP) Yes No Yes Yes Yes No Department for Education (Edward Timpson MP) Yes No Yes Yes No No Department for Communities and Local No Yes Yes No No No Government (Baroness Hanham CBE) Department for Work and Pensions (Mark Hoban No No No No No No MP) Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Hugo Swire No Yes Yes No No No MP) Department for International Development (Lynne NoYesNoNoNoNo Featherstone MP) Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson MP) — — — — Yes Yes Department of Health (Anna Soubry MP) No No No Yes No No

Human Trafficking: Scotland Mr Harper [holding answer 10 June 2013]: The Complex Casework Directorate forms part of UK Visas and Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Immigration and was formally established in April 2013. the Home Department how many suspected victims of The directorate deals with the following workstreams trafficking were found in Scotland in each of the last that are defined as ’complex’; three years; how many traffickers were prosecuted and pre-March 2007 asylum cases; convicted in Scotland in that period; and what assets Asylum Active review applications; belonging to such traffickers were then seized from the referrals for deprivation of citizenship where it was granted UK and overseas. [161357] through deception; referrals for revocation of Indefinite Leave where it was granted Mr Harper: The numbers of potential victims of through deception; and trafficking, who were found in Scotland in each of the referrals for cancellation of cessation of Refugee Status. last three years, are set out in the following table: The Complex Casework Directorate is in the process of defining service standards for each of the above Number of victims referred workstreams. 2010 95 We are not able to supply the management information 2011 94 requested as we do not hold such information. 2012 96 Immigration Controls In Scotland, criminal law is devolved to the Scottish Government and the Lord Advocate has responsibility for prosecutorial matters in Scotland. Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will review the effects of Immigration the minimum income requirement for UK citizens to bring a spouse or partner of non-European Economic Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Area nationality to settle in the UK. [161167] Department what criteria her Department uses to decide whether an immigration case is deemed Mr Harper [holding answer 24 June 2013]: The complex; and what service standards apply to such Government is satisfied the minimum income requirement cases. [158819] is working as intended. However, as with all new policies, 177W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 178W we will keep the impact under review in the light of the 2013, from the right hon. Member for Manchester, published immigration statistics and other sources of Gorton with regard to Mr Daniel Olabode Ogun information available. These will include the information Mulele. [161546] and representations provided by those affected by the rules, such as are contained in the report by the All-Party Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Parliamentary Group on Migration published on 10 June 25 June 2013. 2013. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Legal Opinion: Treaties the Home Department when she plans to reply to the letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 9 May Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2013 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Home Department pursuant to the answer of 6 June Gorton with regard to Mr Mohammad Jawas. [161547] 2013, Official Report, column 1230W, on legal opinion: treaties, how the sending and receiving of requests Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on between the UK and the US since February 2010 has 24 June 2013. been facilitated without a secure email link; and if she will make a statement. [160465] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Mr Harper [holding answer 19 June 2013]: Requests letter dated 9 May 2013 from the right hon. Member to the US are sent securely in hard copy. Most requests for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr M.S. from the US are received in hard copy, but some urgent Anjum. [161548] requests have been received via email. Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Members: Correspondence 25 June 2013.

Sir Alan Beith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department when the right hon. Member for the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Berwick-upon-Tweed will receive a reply from the letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 8 May Minister for Immigration to her letters of 4 February 2013 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, 2013 and 15 April 2013 concerning the sponsor’s Gorton with regard to Mr Godfrey Jones. [161549] minimum income figure being determined on a national basis. [160949] Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 19 June 2013. Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on 21 June 2013. Police

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Home Department what the average number of police letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 13 May officers is per head of population in each police force in 2013, from the right hon. Member for Manchester, England and Wales. [161694] Gorton with regard to Mr Girma Worke and Mrs Nurya Kedir Gobena. [161543] Damian Green: The table shows the number of police officers per 100,000 population (population as estimated Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on at mid 2010), in each police force area in England and 24 June 2013. Wales (full-time equivalent) as at 31 March 2012. These figures are published in the Police Service Strength, Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for England and Wales, 31 March 2012 bulletin. the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Number of police officers per 100,000 population, in each police force area in letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 13 May England and Wales, as at 31 March 20121, 3, 4 2013, from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Total officers per 100,000 population2 Gorton with regard to Mr Rahman. [161544] Avon and Somerset 187 Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Bedfordshire 188 25 June 2013. Cambridgeshire 174 Cheshire 199 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Cleveland 271 the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Cumbria 228 letter dated 13 May 2013, from the right hon. Member Derbyshire 180 for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms Edwige Devon and Cornwall 192 Nadebe Koagne. [161545] Dorset 193 Durham 223 Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member on Essex 196 24 June 2013. Gloucestershire 204 Greater Manchester 285 Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Hampshire 182 the Home Department when she plans to reply to the Hertfordshire 179 letter to the Minister for Immigration dated 13 May Humberside 201 179W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 180W

Number of police officers per 100,000 population, in each police force area in Police and Crime Commissioners England and Wales, as at 31 March 20121, 3, 4 Total officers per 100,000 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2 population Home Department whether her Department plans to Kent 208 commission or instruct an independent national body Lancashire 229 to publish a national register of police and crime Leicestershire 215 commissioners’ interests. [161163] Lincolnshire 162 Damian Green [holding answer 24 June 2013]: It is London, City of — not the role of central Government to establish and Merseyside 302 maintain a national register of interests. Metropolitan police 411 Under the Specified Information Order, police and Norfolk 179 crime commissioners’ have to publish a register of interests, Northamptonshire 180 including every pecuniary interest or other paid interest Northumbria 274 as well as other key information such as budgets; contracts North Yorkshire 175 and tenders; senior salaries; expenses; and key decisions. Nottinghamshire 200 Public Appointments South Yorkshire 209 Staffordshire 182 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Suffolk 163 Home Department who the members of (a) the Police Surrey 175 Advisory and Police Negotiating Boards, (b) the Police Sussex 188 Arbitration Tribunal, (c) the Police Discipline Appeals Tribunal, (d) the Security Industry Authority, (e) the Thames Valley 193 Serious Organised Crime Agency and (f) the Technical Warwickshire 157 Advisory Board were on 1 January 2013; and what the West Mercia 184 (i) ethnicity, (ii) term of office and (iii) remuneration is West Midlands 295 in each case. [156631] West Yorkshire 232 Wiltshire 160 Damian Green [holding answer 21 May 2013]: Members Dyfed-Powys 223 of these bodies, along with information about their remuneration and term of office are set out in the Gwent 258 following table. North Wales 214 The Commissioner for Public Appointments collates South Wales 231 and publishes information on the number of appointments Total of all 43 forces 243 of candidates from ethnic minority backgrounds; however 1 This and other tables contain full-time equivalent figures that have been this information is not broken down by public body or rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 Officers per 100,000 population for City of London and Metropolitan police ethnicity. The Commissioner’s annual reports are at: are combined. http://publicappointmentscommissioner.independent.gov.uk 3 These figures are published in the Police Service Strength, England and Wales, 31 March 2012 bulletin (table 4). copies of which are also available in the Library of the 4 Source—Home Office annual data requirement. House.

Body Position Name Date current term expires Remuneration

Police Advisory Board, Police Deputy Chair Gillian Morris 11 February 2015 £343 per day Negotiating Board Police Advisory Board, Police Chair John Randall 12 February 2014 £429 per day Negotiating Board Police Arbitration Tribunal Chair Professor John 31 December 2014 468 per day (three bodies) Goodman Police Arbitration Tribunal Member Margaret Salmon 31 December 2014 £334 per day (three bodies) Police Arbitration Tribunal Member Virginia Branney 31 /December 2014 £334 per day (three bodies) Police Discipline Appeals A police appeals The maximum remuneration for a Tribunal tribunal consists of Tribunal member is £469, which is three people appointed paid to the Chair for a standard in accordance with full day sitting. schedule 6 to the Police Act 1996 Security Industry Authority Acting Chair Bill Matthews 31 March 2014 This information will be released when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Security Industry Authority Vice Chair Robin Dahlberg 30 March 2014 This information will be released when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Security Industry Authority Non Executive Edward Weiss 2 March 2015 This information will be released Director when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Security Industry Authority Non Executive Linda Sharpe 31 March 2014 This information will be released Director when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. 181W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 182W

Body Position Name Date current term expires Remuneration

Security Industry Authority Non Executive Professor Sir Desmond 6 November 2015 This information will be released Director Rea when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Serious Organised Crime Agency Chair Sir Ian Andrews 2 August 2013 This information will be released when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Serious Organised Crime Agency Non Executive Francis Plowden 31 December 2013 This information will be released Director when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Serious Organised Crime Agency Non Executive Peter Clarke 31 December 2013 This information will be released Director when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Serious Organised Crime Agency Non Executive Dr Martyn Thomas 31 December 2013 This information will be released Director when the Annual Report and Accounts are laid in due course. Technical Advisory Board Chair Peter Walker 22 December 2014 £400 per day Technical Advisory Board Member Gerry McQuaid 30 September 2013 Nil Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 30 September 2013 Nil Representative 5—name cannot be disclosed for security reasons Technical Advisory Board Member Andrew May 31 March 2014 Nil Technical Advisory Board Member Bob Hughes 31 March 2014 Nil Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 31 March 2014 Nil Representative 1—name cannot be disclosed for security reasons Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 31 March 2014 Nil Representative 2—name cannot be disclosed for security reasons Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 31 March 2014 Nil Representative 3--name cannot be disclosed for security reasons Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 31 March 2014 Nil Representative 4—name cannot be disclosed for security reasons Technical Advisory Board Member Jacqueline Mellor 31 March 2014 Nil Technical Advisory Board Member Simon MacKenzie- 31 March 2014 Nil Crooks Technical Advisory Board Member Timothy King 31 March 2014 Nil Technical Advisory Board Member Intercepting Agency 13 February 2015 Nil Representative 6—name cannot be disclosed for security reasons

Registration of Births, Deaths, Marriages and Civil number of locations in which the facilities are provided Partnerships across England and Wales. The registration of births is not outsourced by registrars. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what consideration she has Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme given to enabling the registration of births in children’s Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for centres; [160970] the Home Department what plans she has to replace (2) what estimate she has made of the number of the seasonal agricultural workers scheme. [161332] registrars who have outsourced their registration of births to other places in the community due to high Mr Harper: When the current scheme closes, the demand. [160971] quotas on seasonal labour from Bulgaria and Romania will be lifted, giving growers free access to labour from anywhere in the EU. The Migration Advisory Committee Mr Harper [holding answer 24 June 2013]: The Births has recently reported on the impact of closure of the and Deaths Registration Act 1953 provides for every Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme and we are child’s birth to be recorded in a register kept for the considering their report carefully. sub-district in which the child was born. Related legislation allows for the registration to take place in a wide range of premises such as town halls, hospitals, libraries and Security Guards: Licensing children’s centres. Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for It is a matter for local authorities, who employ registrars, the Home Department (1) how many licence to determine the locations at which they provide birth applications the Security Industry Authority refused registration facilities in order to best meet the needs of (a) in total and (b) due to unspent convictions in (i) their local community. No central record is held of the 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; [161454] 183W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 184W

(2) how many licence applications the Security Data on counter-terrorism arrests, charges and Industry Authority granted in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and convictions are available in the Home Office statistical (c) 2012; [161455] release ‘Operation of police powers under the Terrorism (3) how many applications for licences the Security Act 2000 and subsequent legislation: Arrests, outcomes Industry Authority received in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and and stops and searches’. This statistical release can be (c) 2012. [161456] accessed from the Gov.UK website at: www.gov.uk/home-office James Brokenshire: The following figures detail the number of licence applications refused, and how many UK Border Agency of those were criminality related, per year from 2010 to 2012. It should be noted that the Security Industry Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority (SIA) takes into account all convictions, spent the Home Department how many specialists work on and unspent. As such for reporting purposes it is not human trafficking in the UK Border Agency; and if recorded whether a licence is refused on the basis of she will make a statement. [161459] spent or unspent convictions, but simply on the basis of criminality. Mr Harper: Under the National Referral Mechanism (NRM) decisions about who is a victim of trafficking Of which: Due to are made by trained specialists. Four staff located in the Total criminality UK Visas and Immigration NRM Hub and two immigration staff seconded to the UK Human Trafficking 2010 4,915 4,569 Centre undertake this role on a full time basis. In 2011 3,600 3,389 addition, approximately 92 trained staff within UK 2012 4,333 3,911 Visas and Immigration who are located across the United Total 12,848 11,869 Kingdom undertake this role alongside other duties. The following figures detail how many licence Human Trafficking specialists are also located in applications across all sectors were granted by the SIA other parts of the Home Office including Intelligence, per year from 2010-12. Policy and Border Force.

Number UK Membership of EU

2010 106,440 Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2011 119,375 Home Department (1) what her Department’s top 2012 156,022 priorities are for changing the UK’s relationship with Total 381,837 the EU; [157262] The following figures below detail how many licence (2) what assessment she has made of the greatest applications across all sectors that the SIA received per benefit which accrues to her Department by reason of year from 2010-12. the UK’s membership of the EU. [159213]

Total James Brokenshire [holding answers 3 and 11 June 2013]: As the Prime Minister’s speech on Europe in 2010 185,597 January this year made clear, Britain’s national interest 2011 182,942 is best served by membership of a flexible, adaptable 2012 226,262 and open European Union. However, the EU needs to Total 594,801 change both to deliver prosperity and to retain the support of its peoples. Social Enterprises The Government is currently carrying out the Balance of Competence Review which is an evidence based and Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for the objective analysis of what EU membership means for Home Department how many of her Department’s the UK and our national interest. The Home Office will suppliers are social enterprises. [161608] publish two reports in December on the Freedom of Movement and Asylum and Immigration. The reports James Brokenshire: The Home Department is unable will not produce recommendations but will look at the to provide this information as it is not held centrally impact of the EU in these areas. and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Terrorism TREASURY Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Long-term Unemployment Home Department how many arrests for terrorism offences there have been in each police force area in 15. Pamela Nash: To ask the Chancellor of the each of the last five years. [161691] Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the effect of fiscal policy on the level of long-term James Brokenshire: Although the Home Office publishes unemployment. [161232] statistics containing the number of counter-terrorism arrests, statistics for arrests are not recorded to show Sajid Javid: The UK labour market is showing some the police force area in which the arrests have taken signs of recovery with more people in work than under place. any previous government. 185W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 186W

To support long-term and vulnerable jobseekers, the The Government has undertaken a series of reforms Government launched the Work programme in June to increase the competitiveness of the UK tax system, 2011, which has delivered personalised support to around including cutting the main rate of corporation tax from 850,000 people so far, as well as an intensive regime of 28% to 23%. It will continue to fall, reaching 20% in post-Work programme support for the very long-term April 2015, giving the UK the joint lowest rate in the unemployed from June 2013. G20. The 2012 KPMG Annual Survey of Tax Competitiveness looked at the tax regimes of six key Small Businesses competitor economies—including Ireland and the US—and found that the UK was the most commonly cited as 18. Mr Amess: To ask the Chancellor of the being in the top three. Exchequer what recent fiscal steps he has taken to Billing support small businesses. [161235] John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the 19. David Rutley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment his Department has made Exchequer what recent fiscal steps he has taken to of the savings it could achieve by paying its suppliers support small businesses. [161237] early in return for rebates. [161057]

Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Sajid Javid: No assessment has been made of any given earlier today to the hon. Members for South East savings HM Treasury could achieve by paying its suppliers Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) and Mid Norfolk (George early in return for rebates. Freeman). HM Treasury recognises that prompt payment is National Assembly for Wales: Fiscal Accountability critical to the cash flow of every business, particularly small and medium sized enterprises. All valid goods and services invoices it receives are already paid as soon 21. Glyn Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the as they have been authorised by the HM Treasury Exchequer what plans he has to devolve fiscal officials responsible for the contract. In 2012 HM Treasury accountability to the National Assembly for Wales. Group paid 88% of invoices within five working days. [161240] Climate Change Levy Danny Alexander: The Government established the Commission on Devolution in Wales to consider, as Peter Luff: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer part of its remit, how to increase the fiscal accountability with reference to the answer of 26 March 2013, Official and autonomy of the Welsh Assembly. Report, column 1069W, on Climate Change Levy: The Government has carefully considered the bricks, what progress he has made on setting out the Commission’s recommendations and is now in the process scope of the ceramics industry to be exempt from the of finalising its response. Climate Change Levy. [161280] This is an important issue and the Government is Sajid Javid: The Government is currently seeking committed to delivering the right solution for Wales. views from industry on the design and scope of the metallurgical and mineralogical exemption from the Territorial Army: Departmental Staff climate change levy, announced at Budget 2013. This work is led by HM Revenue and Customs, who are 22. Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the working closely with industry in order to gain a clear Exchequer how many of his Department’s staff have understanding as to which processes should be covered notified the Department that they have applied to join by the new exemption. This will be followed in the the Territorial Army since January 2013. [161241] summer by round table meetings to discuss these findings. Draft legislation to implement the exemption will be Sajid Javid: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I published around the time of the autumn statement gave him earlier today. 2013. This will provide a further opportunity for interested parties to comment. As announced at the Budget, the Air Passenger Duty new exemption will be introduced from 1 April 2014. This approach is consistent with Government’s Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the commitment to better tax policy making, in which tax Exchequer what assessment he has made of the changes are announced at Budget and legislated in the comparative competitiveness of the UK’s air passenger following year’s Finance Bill in order to allow proper duty regime; and what assessment he has made of scrutiny and consultation and hence improve stability claims by the British Air Transport Association that and predictability of the tax system. the UK’s regime ranks 139th globally on this measure. [161070] Developing Countries: Tax Avoidance

Sajid Javid: The Chancellor keeps all taxes under David Simpson: To ask the Chancellor of the review and considers them in the round. The Government Exchequer what steps he plans to take to ensure that has limited the increase in Air Passenger Duty (APD) to UK-linked tax havens do not enable tax avoidance in inflation over the period since 2010-11. Budget 2013 developing countries. [161091] announced that rates for 2014-15 will also increase by inflation only, ensuring that the real burden of APD Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer will therefore remain unchanged for a further year. given on 20 June 2013, Official Report, column 776W. 187W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 188W

Financial Institutions The Treasury has not carried out any research on the impacts of combining increases in the employment Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the allowance and payment of the living wage. Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Co-operative Bank, (b) the Royal Bank of Private Sector: Employment Scotland, (c) Barclays, (d) Lloyds Banking Group and (e) Nationwide about their capital positions. [161517] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the Sajid Javid: Treasury Ministers and officials engage rate of private sector employment growth. [161421] with a wide variety of organisations in the public and private sectors, as part of the process of policy development Sajid Javid: Private sector employment has been growing and delivery. The Treasury publishes a list off ministerial robustly. Over 2012 it grew by 3%, the fastest rate since meetings with external organisations. This is available 2000. Since the start of 2010 private sector employment online at: has increased by 1.3 million and for every one job lost in http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm the public sector over the last year, nearly five have been The Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA) is created in the private sector. There are now more people responsible for the prudential regulation and supervision employed in the UK than ever before. of banks and building societies. Public Expenditure Income Tax: Scotland Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Gregg McClymont: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 6 June 2013, equality impact of his Department’s spending Official Report, column 1239W, on income tax: reductions since 2010; whether this assessment has Scotland, if he will (a) name each member of the been used to inform his planning ahead of the 2013 Scotland Act Pensions Technical Group and (b) comprehensive spending review and with what result; indicate in what capacity each such person is a member what plans he has to publish the equality impact of the Group. [161518] assessments undertaken by his Department as a result of the upcoming comprehensive spending review; and Mr Gauke: The following organisations have been if he will make a statement. [161184] represented on the Scotland Act Pensions Technical Group—Association of British Insurers, Association of Sajid Javid: HM Treasury considers equalities issues Member-directed Pension Schemes, Institute of Chartered in the usual course of its work in order to comply with Accountants in England and Wales, Institute of Chartered equality legislation and to ensure it understands how its Accountants of Scotland, Law Society of Scotland, activities will affect specific groups in society. Low Incomes Tax Reform Group, National Association Departments provided HMT with equalities assessments of Pension Funds, National Employment Savings Trust, of their main areas of expenditure, both before and Scottish Government, Scottish Widows, Society of Pensions during the spending round 2013 process. HMT (as a Consultants and Standard Life. Department with its own corporate budget) responded Limited Liability to these commissions in order to inform overall spending round advice on HMT. Dr Huppert: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Departmental equalities assessments have fully informed how many limited liability partnerships (LLPs) have advice to Ministers on spending round decisions. A been created since 2000; how many partners have been statement on the outcome of the spending round will be created in such LLPs in that period; and what their made on 26 June 2013 and the spending round document average income is. [161345] will be published at that time. Mr Gauke: Between 2000 and 2012 a total of 77,000 Public Expenditure: North East UK limited liability partnerships were newly registered with Companies House. There were 376,000 partners Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the within these entities including both individual and corporate Exchequer what funding he plans to devolve to the partners. proposed North East Combined Authority from An individual or company can be a member of more 1 April 2014 to enable it to promote better transport, than one UK limited liability partnership. skills and economic development. [161550] Estimates of the average income of these partners could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Danny Alexander: The Government welcomes the development of the North East Combined Authority National Insurance Contributions and looks forward to working with this new body to devolve resources overtime. Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what research his Department has Specifically, the Government has confirmed that it undertaken on the impact of combining increases in will implement Lord Heseltine’s recommendation that the employment allowance and payment of the living economic development spending should be devolved to wage on (a) small businesses, (b) government receipts, local areas through a single pot from April 2015. (c) employment and (d) income for the lowest decile Alongside the Budget we published more detail on and quintile of employed households. [161019] the creation of the Single Local Growth Fund and Growth Deals. The next step is an announcement on Sajid Javid: There is no universally agreed definition the size and content of the Fund as part of the spending of a living wage. round. 189W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 190W

The Government also confirmed that it agrees with Stephen Hester Lord Heseltine’s recommendation to streamline the management of the EU Structural and Investment Funds Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (EU SI Funds) in England. The large majority of funds what the role of UK Financial Investments (UKFI) in the EU SI Funds Growth Programme will be notionally was in determining the amount of compensation allocated to LEP areas. This will give LEPs freedom to received by Stephen Hester as outgoing Chief prioritise spend in their local areas from 2014 onwards. Executive of RBS; and whether the compensation paid Public Sector: Borrowing to Mr Hester had to be authorised by UKFI. [161651]

Steve McCabe: To ask the Chancellor of the Sajid Javid: The terms of Stephen Hester’s departure Exchequer what changes his Department has made are a matter for the Board of RBS. UKFI was consulted since 2010 to methods used to calculate public on the terms, but the final decision was for the RBS Board. borrowing. [161087] Sajid Javid: The Treasury has made no changes to the Tax Allowances: Cultural Heritage methods used to calculate public borrowing since 2010. The Office for National Statistics has made changes Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the during this period in response to Eurostat guidance and Exchequer if he will estimate the number and value of other classification decisions. tax exempt heritage assets which are (a) land, buildings and their contents, (b) works of art and (c) Steve McCabe: To ask the Chancellor of the collections of art. [161654] Exchequer if he will estimate the effect on Government borrowing of interest payments on quantitative easing Mr Gauke: The numbers of tax exempt heritage remaining on the Bank of England’s books instead assets are: (a) 374 land and buildings, (b) 114,342 being counted as Treasury receipts. [161088] works of art, and (c) 103 collections of art. Information about the value of these assets is not Sajid Javid: The Office for Budget Responsibility is available. responsible for producing forecasts of the public finances. A full description of the Bank of England Asset Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Purchase Facility Fund treatment, including its effects Exchequer what minimum requirement he has placed on borrowing, is set out on table 4.4 on page 97 of the on public access to tax exempt heritage assets. [161669] OBR’s March 2013 Economic and Fiscal Outlook publication. Mr Gauke: The minimum requirement on public access to tax exempt heritage assets depends on the type Revenue and Customs and location of the asset, and the tax involved. For inheritance tax exemptions, for land and buildings, and Julie Elliott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer any historically associated objects, it is at least 28 days pursuant to the answer of 17 June 2013, Official (for properties in England and Wales) or 25 days (for Report, column 455W, on Members: correspondence, if properties in Scotland). For chattels the minimum he will make it his policy to reopen the HM Revenue requirement is at least one month. There are no public and Customs enquiry centres, closed as part of the access requirements for estate duty exemptions. pilot scheme, if such a reopening is supported in the public consultation. [161609] Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the average number of days the public Mr Gauke: No decisions have been made about the had access to tax exempt heritage assets was in (a) future of HM Revenue and Custom’s inquiry centres 2005, (b) 2010 and (c) 2012. [161670] after the pilot concludes. The public consultation is only one factor in that decision making process. The Mr Gauke: The information requested on the average feedback is being collated and will be considered along number of days that the public had access to tax exempt with all of the data gathered. heritage assets could be obtained only at a disproportionate HMRC will evaluate all of the information gathered cost. from the pilot and plans to announce its decision on the way forward in January 2014. Taxation: Lancashire Smuggling: Tobacco Jake Berry: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Stephen Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the how many families in (a) Blackburn with Darwen and Exchequer what expenditure HM Revenue and (b) Rossendale local authority area were taken out of Customs incurred on Government publicity campaigns paying tax in (i) 2012 and (ii) 2013 to date. [160842] to prevent tobacco smuggling in 2011-12 and 2012-13. [161410] Mr Gauke: By April 2013, the cumulative effect of the Government’s increases in the personal allowance Sajid Javid: I refer the hon. Member to the reply for those aged under 65 years (born after 5 April 1948 given to him on 5 June 2013, Official Report, column since 2013-14 tax year) since 2010-11 had taken 2.4 million 1169W,regarding the expenditure incurred by HM Revenue people out of the income tax system while over 25 million and Customs on Government publicity campaigns to individuals will have seen their income tax liability prevent tobacco smuggling in 2011-12 and 2012-13. reduced. 191W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 192W

This estimate is based on the 2010-11 Survey of scope to secure further prompt payment savings. We Personal Incomes, projected to 2013-14 using economic ensure value for money for our prompt payment assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget commitment by disclosing our payment policy and Responsibility’s March 2013 economic and fiscal outlook. inviting tenders on this basis. Reliable estimates are not available at the local authority level due to greater uncertainties in making projections Community Land Trusts for small geographical areas. Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Taxation: Shipping Communities and Local Government how many Dr Whitehead: To ask the Chancellor of the community land trusts there are in England. [161199] Exchequer what his policy is on the collection of revenues from any proposed international pricing of Mr Prisk: We do not hold a central register of community land trusts. However, the Community Land Trust Network carbon dioxide emissions from shipping. [160941] has reported that there are now over 150 community Sajid Javid: Where greenhouse gas emissions from land trusts in England, ranging from fledgling organisations ships are concerned, the UK’s strong preference is for a that are just starting out, to organisations that have global market based solution to be developed and adopted developed homes or other assets. in the International Maritime Organisation (IMO). In line with our principles of fiscal sovereignty the Government Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for believes that any revenues from such schemes should Communities and Local Government what assessment accrue to national governments. he has made of the potential benefits of community land trusts with regard to the creation of new Termination of Employment affordable and intermediate market housing. [161200]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Prisk: This Government fully supports the work on how many occasions (a) a compromise agreement, of community land trusts, and other organisations that (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial mediation support and empower their local communities. Community was used when an employee of (i) his Department and land trusts have played an important role in helping (ii) the public bodies for which he is responsible left communities bring forward the type of development their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) that they wanted to see. 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160915] The Homes and Communities Agency has set aside a Sajid Javid: I refer the hon. Member to the answer on portion of the Affordable Homes Programme to fund 16 April 2013, Official Report, column 294W. community-led development. It has published guidance There are no occasions when judicial mediation was to help community-led groups to access this funding. used. The Government’s £30 million Custom Build Fund offers short-term project finance by way of loan funding Trade Competitiveness to group custom build schemes, including community groups and community land trusts. The aim of the fund Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the is to help unlock custom build schemes which are Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the experiencing difficulties in accessing conventional UK’s business competitiveness. [161439] development finance. Sajid Javid: Under this Government, Britain has We also provide funding through the Community moved into the top 10 of the most competitive places in Right to Build for community groups such as community the world for business according to the World Economic land trusts to bring forward developments in their Forum. area—whether affordable housing, market homes or local shops or community facilities. We will shortly be Corporation tax is now the lowest of any major releasing details of how we are expanding this fund to western economy; government is investing more in transport allow it to be used for groups using the traditional infrastructure in this Parliament than in the last, red planning application route. £14 million is available over tape has been cut by nearly £850 million in the last two the next two years to support groups outside London. years; and exports to China, India and Brazil are up by In London, separate arrangements apply, overseen by almost two thirds since 2009. the Mayor. Many community land trusts are using the mechanisms we are putting in place to help facilitate delivery of the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT benefits that they want to achieve for their communities. Billing These will be of benefit to urban as well as rural community land trusts. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department has made of the savings it could Communities and Local Government what his policy is achieve by paying its suppliers early in return for on designating exception sites as community land rebates. [161052] trusts. [161201] Brandon Lewis: My Department pays 80% of its Mr Prisk: Rural exception sites aim to address the suppliers within five days or less as part of its commitment needs of the local community by accommodating to pay suppliers promptly and therefore there is little households who are either current residents or have an 193W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 194W existing family or employment connection. The National Tesco: Margate Planning Policy Framework allows for a small number of market homes on an exception site at the local Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for authority’s discretion—for example, where this is deemed Communities and Local Government what recent essential to enable the delivery of affordable homes representations he has received on the decision to allow without grant funding. Tesco to build a superstore in Margate. [161282] Local authorities are best placed to decide what kind Nick Boles: The decision letter, a copy of which is on of development is suitable in communities. However, my Department’s website, lists the representations and this Government believes that authorities should plan material considerations that were taken into account. positively to meet local requirements for affordable and market housing. This could include designating a site being developed by the local community. For example, East Cambridgeshire district council—in WOMEN AND EQUALITIES their current local plan review—have developed a new Disciplinary Proceedings planning policy to facilitate community-led development. The new policy will permit community-based organisations, Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for Women and including Community Land Trusts, to bring forward a Equalities how many staff were suspended from the mixed tenure development proposal on an exception Government Equalities Office on full pay in (a) site provided it meets key planning criteria. The Local 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and what costs Plan will be submitted for examination by the Planning were incurred as a result of such suspensions. [160415] Inspectorate in August 2013. Maria Miller: The number of DCMS staff suspended Housing: Energy and costs incurred are as follows: (a) FY 2010-11: two suspensions at a total cost of £31,314 (gross); Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) FY 2011-12: two suspensions at a total cost of £11,525 Communities and Local Government what steps his (gross); Department is taking to encourage local authorities to (c) FY 2012-13: one suspension at a total cost of £5,268 use funds from the Energy Company Obligation to (gross). address energy inefficient housing. [161636] The figures provided equate to the individuals’ salaries and total costs to the Department during their suspensions. Gregory Barker: I have been asked to reply on behalf The figures at a, b and c reflect that no staff were of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. suspended from the Government Equalities Office on The Department engages closely with local authorities full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. and their representative organisation, the Local Government Association (LGA), and published new guidance under the Home Energy Conservation Act last July. This FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE requires all English LAs to report to the Secretary of State by 31 March 2013 on measures they propose to Bangladesh improve the energy efficiency of all the residential accommodation across their area. Such measures would Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for include plans to deliver ECO and the Green Deal. To Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent date, nearly three quarters of LAs have published plans. representations he has made to the Bangladesh government regarding the disappearance of former Termination of Employment MP, Mr Ilias Ali and other political disappearances. [160642] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: We have consistently called upon the Communities and Local Government on how many Bangladesh Government to conduct an impartial, credible, occasions (a) a compromise agreement, (b) a and transparent investigation into the disappearance of confidentiality clause and (c) judicial mediation was Mr Ilias Ali, and into alleged disappearances of other used when an employee of (i) his Department and (ii) political figures. Our High Commissioner in Dhaka the public bodies for which he is responsible left their raised these issues directly with the Bangladesh Government employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) on 25 April. The Senior Minister of State, my noble 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160901] Friend the right hon. Baroness Warsi, raised the issue of disappearances with the Bangladesh Prime Minister Brandon Lewis: The information requested is not during her visit to Bangladesh in February. centrally held. However, the Department now has a The British Government takes human rights very central record of all employment tribunal related seriously and follows progress closely, raising concerns compromise agreements. There have been no agreements where there are credible allegations. We welcome the in the current financial year. Government’s assurances that they are committed to However, I refer the hon. Member to the National protecting human rights and recognize the positive Audit Office’s recent report, including the steps that progress that has been made across a range of social Ministers have taken within our Department and in development indicators. But allegations of extrajudicial local government to increase accountability and killings and enforced disappearance, such as that of transparency (‘Confidentiality clauses and special severance Ilias Ali and his driver almost a year ago, are deeply payments’, HC 130, 21. June 2013, para 2.4 and para 4.6). concerning. 195W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 196W

At Bangladesh’s 2nd Universal Periodic Review at Mark’s Coptic Cathedral in Cairo on 7 April, leaving at the Human Rights Council on 29 April, the UK least one person dead and many others injured. We recommended that the Government of Bangladesh continue to raise these human rights issues frequently thoroughly and impartially investigate and, if credible with the Egyptian authorities. evidence emerges, prosecute all allegations of human rights violations. Occupied Territories

Conditions of Employment Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for £7 million allocated by the European Commission for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff the Occupied Palestinian Territory will be spent on were retained on zero-hour contracts by (a) his infrastructure in Area C. [160646] Department and (b) the executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which he is Alistair Burt: The £7 million euros allocated by the responsible in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13; European Commission is aimed at supporting the and if he will make a statement. [160769] Palestinian presence and promoting social and economic development in Area C, which is of crucial importance Alistair Burt: As mentioned in my replies to the hon. for the economic viability of Palestine through a variety Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), on of means, including development of basic infrastructure. 25 January 2013, Official Report, column 321W,and the No breakdown of specific allocations is publically available. hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), on 3 June 2013, Official Report, column 856W, the Foreign Saudi Arabia and Commonwealth Office (FCO) do not employ the term ″Zero Hour Contract″ with its employed staff. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign However, we have interpreted the question to mean staff and Commonwealth Affairs if he will condemn who are employed for specific work and are only paid/ publicly the conviction and 10-month prison sentence reimbursed for the work they undertake. awarded to Fawzia Al Ayuni and Wajiha Al Huaider in The FCO currently have five members of staff on this Saudi Arabia. [160713] type of contract. This number has reduced in the last two years. However, to confirm actual figures for previous Alistair Burt: I am concerned at the harsh sentences years would incur disproportionate cost. given out by the judge, in view of the progress Saudi Arabia is making to reform women’s rights in other Egypt areas. I understand the two women were convicted of the offence of takhbib under Sharia Law—or incitement Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for of a wife to defy the authority of her husband—and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment that they are banned from leaving the kingdom for two he has made of the sentencing by the Cairo Criminal years, I understand that there is a right to appeal. Court of 43 NGO employees as a result of their Turkey purported conviction for illegal working in Egypt; and what plans he has to make representations to the government of Egypt about freedom of association Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for and freedom of worship, including Christian worship. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions [160838] he has had with (a) his Turkish counterpart, (b) his EU counterparts and (c) representatives of Alistair Burt: On 4 June the Secretary of State for international organisations about the political Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. demonstrations in Turkey. [160755] Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), raised his concerns about the verdict with a senior Mr Lidington: We are concerned by the disturbing figure in the Egyptian presidency, and I issued a statement events in Turkey in recent days and are monitoring expressing our concern. We assess that the verdict signals events closely. Freedom of expression and assembly are an overly restrictive approach to how NGO employees important rights in any democracy and we support all are able to carry out their work. Civil society has a vital efforts to address the protesters concerns through dialogue. role to play in Egypt’s transition. We continue to call on The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth the authorities to create an environment which allows a Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond vibrant civil society to flourish. (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the protests with Ahmet We continue to raise with the Egyptian authorities Davutoglu, the Turkish Foreign Minister on 11 June as the importance of freedom of association as a vital part part of a broader discussion and encouraged a peaceful of a democratic society. Foreign Office Ministers have resolution. I made the same points to the Turkish EU been clear throughout events in Egypt since the revolution Affairs Minister, Egemen Bagis on 13 June. that freedom of religious belief, and people’s ability to The protests featured in discussions between the Prime worship in peace, must be protected. I discussed our Minister and his EU counterparts in the margins of the concerns about the protection of minorities, including G8 summit. I discussed the protests with EU partners at Christians and women with senior members of the the Foreign Affairs Council on 24 June. Foreign and Egypt Government when I visited Egypt in January and Commonwealth Office officials hosted a human rights with the Egyptian Foreign Minister by telephone on 18 roundtable discussion on Turkey, in London on 19 June, February. I issued a statement on 8 April to strongly which included representatives from international non- condemn the violent clashes that occurred outside St government organisations. 197W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 198W

Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of the ability of consular services of his Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Department to support British nationals in Turkey has received of pressure by the Turkish government on affected by the recent political disturbances. [160758] media outlets following the recent political demonstrations in that country; and what discussions Mr Lidington: Consular services in Turkey are provided he has had with (a) his Turkish counterpart, (b) his through the British embassy in Ankara and Consulates EU counterparts and (c) representatives of in Istanbul, Izmir, Bodrum, Marmaris, Fethiye and international organisations about media freedom and Antalya. Consular staff have provided assistance to a press censorship in Turkey in the light of any such number of British nationals affected by the recent political reports. [160756] disturbances in Turkey and stand ready to provide further assistance where necessary. Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Our consular response has been reviewed daily since Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member the start of the disturbances to ensure adequate support for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and I have discussed is being provided to British nationals. No additional the protests with our Turkish counterparts and encouraged consular resources have been required as of today. a peaceful resolution. We are aware of reports of arrests Consular services, including those in Turkey, are regularly in connection with social media use. Freedom of assembly, reviewed to ensure they continue to provide a consistent association and expression are important rights and it high level of consular assistance. Consular services in remains important that all commitments enshrined in Turkey were last reviewed in March 2012. the European Convention of Human Rights are respected. We hope the issues raised by the protestors are resolved Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for through an inclusive process of constructive engagement Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contingency and dialogue. plans he has made to support British nationals in I discussed the protests with EU partners at the Turkey following the start of the recent political Foreign Affairs Council on 24 June. The protests featured disturbances; and what discussions he has had with his in discussions between the Prime Minister and his EU Turkish counterpart on the safety of British nationals. counterparts in the margins of the G8 summit. Foreign [160759] and Commonwealth Office officials have also held discussions on the protests and press freedom with Mr Lidington: The British Government regularly updates representatives of international human rights organisations. its travel advice in response to evolving developments surrounding the demonstrations. Our travel advice to British citizens is based on regular assessments of the Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for political situation in Turkey. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the current state of media freedom in So far we have received one report of a British Turkey and the position of the Turkish government on national being caught up in the demonstrations, he was media freedom and peaceful protests; and whether he arrested on 15 June and the British Consulate in Istanbul plans to make representations about media freedom in is providing consular assistance. Our Consular network Turkey. [160757] in Istanbul and across Turkey is continuing to monitor the situation closely. Mr Lidington: We and our EU partners continue to We maintain a wide range of contingency planning take a close interest in press and other freedoms in for a range of eventualities across our entire global Turkey and our concerns are reflected in the EU’s network. We do not discuss these plans publicly. Annual Progress Reports on Turkey. The UK plays an I made the same points to the Turkish EU Affairs integral part in delivering the EU human rights strategy Minister. Egemen Bagis on 13 June. We will continue to in Turkey and, together with our EU partners, we will follow events closely. continue to urge Turkey to make further progress on the full range of human rights issues, including press freedom. We welcome the Turkish Government’s recent adoption HEALTH of judicial reform packages that are aimed at reducing blockages in the judicial system and reforming anti-terror Ambulance Services laws. The introduction of a Human Rights Ombudsman in November 2012 will also help to improve the outlook Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for for fundamental freedoms in Turkey. Health (1) under what circumstances he would The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth intervene to remove the board of an ambulance trust; Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond [161190] (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the protests with Ahmet (2) what mechanisms exist for intervention in an Davutoglu, the Turkish Foreign Minister on 11 June as ambulance trust that demonstrates serious failings over part of a broader discussion and encouraged a peaceful a sustained period. [161191] resolution. I made the same points to the Turkish EU Affairs Minister, Egemen Bagis on 13 June. We remain Anna Soubry: If an ambulance trust is an NHS trust, committed to supporting Turkey’s EU accession process where there is evidence of clinical or financial failure which we believe is an effective way to continue encouraging and it is deemed to be the only solution remaining to Turkey’s important reform agenda. remedy the situation, then the Secretary of State would consider the powers available to remove an NHS trust Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for board in consultation with the NHS Trust Development Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Authority. 199W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 200W

Ambulance trusts are held to account for delivery of commissioners and providers who deliver improvement their services through the NHS Trust Development in patient experience. NHS England is currently reviewing Authority’s operating model, “Delivering High Quality which financial rewards should be in place for next year, Care for Patients: The Accountability Framework for based on evidence of what works, in order to improve NHS Trust Boards”. This gives details of the on-going quality across all five domains of the NHS Outcomes oversight mechanisms for all NHS trusts, including Framework, including patient experience. ambulance service providers, and an escalation route where intervention may be required. Cataracts Ambulance trusts that are foundation trusts are independent of Department of Health control, and the Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary of State has no power to remove the board. Health how many cataract operations were performed Monitor is the independent healthcare regulator with in NHS hospitals in 2012-13. [161657] responsibility for oversight of foundation trusts with a core duty to protect and promote the interests of patients. Anna Soubry: This information is not yet available. Monitor does have the power to remove members of the The latest information available is for the five years board should certain provider licence conditions be leading up to 2011-12, and is shown in the following breached. table. Monitor’s approach to regulation of foundation trusts Count of finished consultant episodes (FCEs) with a cataracts procedure, for is set out in its Compliance Framework. NHS providers, 2007-08 to 2011-12: Activity in English NHS Hospitals FCEs Ambulance Services: Northamptonshire 2007-08 312,747 Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 327,742 Health if he will meet a delegation from Corby and 2009-10 330,599 East Northamptonshire to discuss ambulance services 2010-11 317,315 in that region. [161192] 2011-12 307,097 Notes: 1. Finished Consultant Episode (FCE) Anna Soubry: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted patient State, my noble Friend Earl Howe, has responsibility care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted for ambulance services and would be happy to meet the against the year in which they end, Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within hon. Member to discuss ambulance services in the the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. Corby and East Northamptonshire area. 2. Cataracts procedure This involves a combination of diagnosis (ICD10) and procedure (OPCS) codes Billing ICD10 codes in a primary or secondary position: The number of episodes where this diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. Each episode is what assessment his Department has made of the only counted once, even if the diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field of the record. savings it could achieve by paying its suppliers early in H25 Senile cataract return for rebates. [161055] H26 Other cataract Q120 Congenital cataract Anna Soubry: The Department of Health complies or in a secondary position only: H280 Diabetic cataract with the Government’s prompt payment policy, set by H281 Cataract in other endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases Cabinet Office, that 80% of undisputed invoices are to H282 Cataract in other diseases classified elsewhere be paid within five days of receipt at the Department’s OPCS codes in a primary or secondary position: The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded in nominated address. any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure An assessment of potential savings from supplier fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one rebates has not been undertaken by the Department at procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than this time. episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For example, patients under going a ‘cataract operation’ would tend to have at least two procedures—removal Cancer of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. C71. Extracapsular extraction of lens C72. Intracapsular extraction of lens Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State C73. Incision of capsule of lens for Health (1) whether the clinical directors for cancer C74. Other extraction of lens C75. Prosthesis of lens strategic clinical networks have been appointed; C77. Other operations on lens [161674] 3. NHS/Non-NHS provider This is determined by the provider code of the organisation—those beginning (2) whether he proposes that improvements on with 8 or N are independent providers whereas others are NHS providers. cancer patient experience made by providers and 4. Assessing growth through time (In-patients) commissioners will be rewarded financially. [161675] HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent Anna Soubry: Clinical directors for cancer strategic sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For clinical networks are appointed by the Area Team Medical example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. Directors of NHS England. The appointments process Source: is on-going with some, but not all, appointments being Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre made. Chiropody NHS England is required through the mandate to deliver improvements in patient experience for everyone Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for using NHS services in England, including cancer patients. Health what assessment he has made of the importance There are already financial rewards in place for of podiatry to people’s overall health; what guidance 201W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 202W his Department has issued to local commissioners on products, including electronic cigarettes. One aspect of podiatry services; what amount was spent in 2012-13 this research was to monitor the scientific literature and on podiatry services in each English constituency; and research for information relating to passive inhalation what the expected level of spending on podiatry of electronic cigarette vapour. services is for each English constituency in 2014-15. The limited number of studies conducted to date [161196] indicate that the risk of passive exposure to electronic cigarette vapour was very small relative to tobacco Dr Poulter: There has been no assessment made by cigarettes and that there is no apparent risk to health. the Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend Further research was, however, recommended to evaluate the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), on the the impact of e-cigarettes on indoor air quality and to importance of podiatry to people’s overall health, and estimate any possible effects of passive inhalation of the Department has issued no guidance on the e-cigarette vapour. commissioning of podiatry services. It is the responsibility Summaries of these studies can be accessed in the of local clinical commissioning groups to commission Commission on Human Medicines Working Group on services to meet the needs of their community including Nicotine Containing Products (NCPs) paper on the the provision of podiatry services. The Department quality, safety and efficacy of unlicensed NCPs at: does not centrally collect the data on the amount that was spent on podiatry in the past or within each www.mhra.gov.uk/NCPs constituency, or what the expected level of spending on Health podiatry services will be in the future. The spend and priority of allocation of podiatry services is for local determination. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Clinical Commissioning Groups local authorities in promoting better public health through services addressing the wider determinants of Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for health such as leisure provision, housing, reducing Health pursuant to the answer of 17 June 2013, Official anti-social behaviour and environmental Report, column 556W on NHS: finance, if he will (a) improvements. [161130] produce and place in the Library a document setting out the 2013-14 financial allocation to each clinical Norman Lamb: The Government believes that local commissioning group (CCG) on a per capita basis and government is best placed to influence many of the (b) request that the advisory panel on NHS funding wider factors that affect health and wellbeing. That is calculate how much funding per capita would have why upper tier local authorities have been given a been provided to each CCG in North Yorkshire and statutory duty to take appropriate steps to improve the York if the division of the baseline sum for each CCG health of their populations. had been split according to the NHS funding formula Health and wellbeing boards were established on a used to determine the split of resources between statutory basis in every upper-tier authority in England primary care trusts. [161119] on 1 April 2013. Health and wellbeing boards bring together national health service, public health and social Anna Soubry: Allocations to clinical commissioning care, as well as elected representatives and representatives groups (CCGs) are the responsibility of NHS England. of local Healthwatch, and they will consider how to A copy of the document setting out the 2013-14 improve the health and wellbeing of the local populations, financial allocation to each CCG on a per capita basis and reduce health inequalities. They are responsible for has already been placed in the Library. developing a joint understanding of local health and care needs through joint strategic needs assessments We have been informed that, it is not possible to say (JSNAs); and a shared set of priorities and a strategy to how much each CCG would have received per capita if address these in Joint Health and Wellbeing Strategies the primary care trust (PCT) weighted capitation formula (JHWSs). JSNAs and JHWSs will form the basis of had been used to set targets with any accuracy. This is NHS and local authorities’ own commissioning plans, because the formula operated at PCT level and PCTs across health, social care, public health and children’s and CCGs in North Yorkshire and York have different services. They will also provide opportunities for integrated populations and boundaries, and also have different service planning across the health and care system and commissioning responsibilities. In addition, it is not for working with local partners to address the wider possible to say what pace of change policy would have determinants of health, such as housing, education and been implemented (if any) under a hypothetical set of leisure provision. target allocations. We recognise that addressing the social determinants Electronic Cigarettes of health across the life course is crucial to improving health outcomes and reducing health inequalities. This Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for approach underpins our Public Health White Paper Health what assessment he has made of the health (Healthy Lives, Healthy People), which draws on the hazard or otherwise of secondary smoke inhalation findings of the strategic review of health inequalities in from people using electronic cigarettes; and if he will England—the Marmot review. make a statement. [160957] Public Health England will support local authorities as necessary in having the right evidence and information Norman Lamb: The Medicines and Healthcare products to inform local action. Information about progress for Regulatory Agency has completed a period of scientific each local area will be available through the Public research into the safety and quality of nicotine containing Health Outcome Framework indicators. 203W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 204W

Health Services: Essex since 2009; and what proportion of the total staff of each trust each figure represents. [161305] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) managers and (b) administrative staff Dr Poulter: The information requested is provided in were employed in each NHS trust in Essex in each year the following tables:

All NHS staff by specified staff groups and organisations as at 30 September 2009

Full-time equivalent and percentage

Of which:

Percentage Percentage All NHS Clerical and Senior clerical and Percentage senior Staff administrative Manager manager administrative manager manager

5P1 South East Essex PCT 1,467 195 25 129 13.3 1.7 8.8

5PV West Essex PCT 1,527 235 80 11 15.4 5.3 0.7

5PW North East Essex PCT 1,940 366 53 27 18.9 2.7 1.4

5PX Mid Essex PCT 1,733 254 71 24 14.6 4.1 1.4

5PY South West Essex PCT 2,308 451 72 110 19.5 3.1 4.8

RAJ Southend University Hospital 3,673 692 77 45 18.8 2.1 1.2 NHS Foundation Trust

RDD Basildon and Thurrock 3,562 744 27 30 20.9 0.8 0.8 University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust

RDE Colchester Hospital University 2,959 538 50 28 18.2 1.7 0.9 NHS Foundation Trust

RQ8 Mid Essex Hospital Services 3,206 508 75 28 15.8 2.4 0.9 NHS Trust

RQW Princess Alexandra Hospital 2,560 520 77 6 20.3 3.0 0.2 NHS Trust

RRD North Essex Partnership NHS 1,614 310 35 16 19.2 2.1 1.0 Foundation Trust

RWN South Essex Partnership 1,800 351 72 30 19.5 4.0 1.7 University NHS Foundation Trust

RYC East of England Ambulance 3,829 681 174 28 17.8 4.5 0.7 Service NHS Trust

All NHS staff by specified staff groups and organisations as at 30 September 2010 Full-time equivalent and percentage Of which: Percentage Percentage All NHS Clerical and Senior clerical and Percentage senior Staff administrative Manager manager administrative manager manager

5P1 South East Essex PCT 1,562 225 19 143 14.4 1.2 9.2 5PV West Essex PCT 1,584 292 70 24 18.4 4.4 1.5 5PW North East Essex PCT 1,745 358 49 26 20.5 2.8 1.5 5PX Mid Essex PCT 1,641 272 47 37 16.6 2.9 2.3 5PY South West Essex PCT 2,356 453 127 57 19.2 5.4 2.4 RAJ Southend University Hospital 3,730 694 85 51 18.6 2.3 1.4 NHS Foundation Trust RDD Basildon and Thurrock 3,723 724 27 18 19.4 0.7 0.5 University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust RDE Colchester Hospital University 3,076 557 53 29 18.1 1.7 0.9 NHS Foundation Trust RQ8 Mid Essex Hospital Services 3,208 534 64 12 16.6 2.0 0.4 NHS Trust RQW Princess Alexandra Hospital 2,695 579 14 5 21.5 0.5 0.2 NHS Trust RRD North Essex Partnership NHS 1,732 326 37 14 18.8 2.1 0.8 Foundation Trust RWN South Essex Partnership 2,913 547 62 62 18.8 2.1 2.1 University NHS Foundation Trust RYC East of England Ambulance 3,609 652 94 22 18.1 2.6 0.6 Service NHS Trust 205W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 206W

All NHS staff by specified staff groups and organisations as at 30 September 2011 Full-time equivalent and percentage Of which: All NHS Clerical and Manager Senior Percentage Percentage Percentage Staff administrative manager clerical and manager senior administrative manager

5P1 South East Essex PCT 1,532 197 31 126 12.9 2.0 8.2 5PV West Essex PCT 1,497 201 58 21 13.4 3.9 1.4 5PW North East Essex PCT 1,796 367 46 26 20.4 2.6 1.5 5PX Mid Essex PCT 1,783 260 43 38 14.6 2.4 2.1 5PY South West Essex PCT 2,228 332 75 80 14.9 3.4 3.6 RAJ Southend University Hospital 3,802 695 98 48 18.3 2.6 1.3 NHS Foundation Trust RDD Basildon and Thurrock 3,677 700 40 19 19.0 1.1 0.5 University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust RDE Colchester Hospital University 3,060 562 51 30 18.4 1.7 1.0 NHS Foundation Trust RQ8 Mid Essex Hospital Services 3,412 554 60 12 16.2 1.7 0.4 NHS Trust RQW Princess Alexandra Hospital 2,634 478 70 8 18.1 2.7 0.3 NHS Trust RRD North Essex Partnership NHS 1,701 322 29 13 18.9 1.7 0.7 Foundation Trust RWN South Essex Partnership 2,754 484 50 60 17.6 1.8 2.2 University NHS Foundation Trust RYC East of England Ambulance 3,640 655 101 22 18.0 2.8 0.6 Service NHS Trust

All NHS staff by specified staff groups and organisations as at 30 September 2012 Full-time equivalent and percentage Of which: Percentage Percentage All NHS Clerical and Senior clerical and Percentage senior Staff administrative Manager manager administrative manager manager

5P1 South East Essex PCT 962 84 35 100 8.7 3.6 10.4 5PV West Essex PCT 808 108 25 12 13.4 3.1 1.4 5PW North East Essex PCT 924 86 22 11 9.3 2.4 1.2 5PX Mid Essex PCT 925 76 24 22 8.2 2.6 2.4 5PY South West Essex PCT 1,004 70 42 60 7.0 4.2 6.0 RAJ Southend University Hospital 3,824 693 98 46 18.1 2.6 1.2 NHS Foundation Trust RDD Basildon and Thurrock 3,689 715 37 22 19.4 1.0 0.6 University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust RDE Colchester Hospital University 3,521 630 58 33 17.9 1.6 0.9 NHS Foundation Trust RQ8 Mid Essex Hospital Services 3,389 521 55 13 15.4 1.6 0.4 NHS Trust RQW Princess Alexandra Hospital 2,554 457 63 15 17.9 2.4 0.6 NHS Trust RRD North Essex Partnership NHS 1,801 327 35 15 18.2 2.0 0.9 Foundation Trust RWN South Essex Partnership 4,924 826 99 73 16.8 2.0 1.5 University NHS Foundation Trust RYC East of England Ambulance 3,676 724 104 19 19.7 2.8 0.5 Service NHS Trust Notes: 1. Data include full-time equivalent staff. 2. Changes in Health and Community Health Service staff figures at organisation level may be due to moves in service provider to neighbouring Trusts or other organisations as part of Transforming Community Services (TCS). Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre, NHS Workforce Census

Heart Diseases (2) what proportion of patients diagnosed with heart disease died within one year of diagnosis in each of the last five years; [161132] Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what initiatives his Department has introduced Health (1) what steps he is taking to improve treatment since 2010 aimed at improving the diagnosis and of heart disease in patients to the level of the treatment of heart disease. [161133] best-performing countries; [161117] 207W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 208W

Anna Soubry: Reducing mortality and improving “Public Dividend Capital”, where their borrowing powers outcomes for people with heart disease and other have been exhausted and urgent capital investment is cardiovascular disease (CVD) is a key priority for this required to support their financial recovery plan. Government. CVD is specifically covered in both the Public Health and NHS Outcome Frameworks. NHS Human Trafficking England works to improve the quality of NHS services and is held to account through the Mandate. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Information on the proportion of patients diagnosed what awareness raising campaigns on human with heart disease who died within one year of diagnosis trafficking his Department has undertaken with health is not available in the format requested. professionals. [161140] The main initiative introduced since 2010 is the Anna Soubry: The Department commissioned Platform Government’s CVD Outcomes Strategy, published in 51 to engage a range of stakeholders in developing March 2013. The strategy acknowledges that the United resources to raise awareness of human trafficking among Kingdom does not perform well compared with a range health professionals. In April 2013, the Department of similar countries in terms of mortality and disability launched the health and trafficking e-learning resource from CVD. and leaflet. These materials are designed to support The strategy challenges the national health service to health professionals to identify victims of trafficking bring outcomes for patients with heart disease and and respond to their needs. The resources can be accessed other CVDs up to the level of the best of the rest of the at: world and sets out key actions for commissioners and www.gov.uk/government/publications/identifying-and- providers to improve outcomes in stroke and other supporting-victims-of-human-trafficking-guidance-for- CVDs: health-staff to manage CVD as a single family of diseases; Medical Records: Databases to improve prevention and risk management, including through the NHS Health Check Programme; Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for to improve and enhance case finding in primary care; Health whether patients who opted out of the to better identify very high risk families and individuals; Summary Care Record will be required to opt out to improve management and secondary prevention in the again from the General Practice Extraction Service. community; [161658] to improve acute care; to improve care for patients living with CVD; Dr Poulter: In terms of people’s concerns about data to improve end of life care for CVD; and being shared securely with the Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC), patients wishing to object to improve intelligence, monitoring and research. to their Personal Confidential Data (PCD) flowing to Hospitals HSCIC need to make their wishes clear to the general practitioner practice. Opting out of Summary Care Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Record does not automatically opt you put of PCD Health what account his Department takes of sharing. demographic forecasts in the funding formula for local hospitals. [161194] Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans to undertake a public Anna Soubry: We have been advised by NHS England information campaign prior to the commencement of that the income a hospital earns is linked directly to the the General Practice Extraction Service. [161659] volume of activity and services that it delivers to its community. Local commissioners within clinical Dr Poulter: The British Medical Association (BMA), commissioning groups and NHS England (for specialised NHS England and the Royal College of General services) will decide what services to commission from a Practitioners (RCGP) have jointly produced materials hospital and this will be based on assessment of the including an information leaflets and posters and FAQs needs of the area, a primary, factor of which will be the which general practitioner (GP) practices should make age demographic and health deprivation of an area. available to their patients. GP practices are advised to This is a matter for the commissioners and is not a make information available on their website and in matter for the Department. regular patient communications, such as e-bulletins and patient newsletters. Awareness raising activity with patients Hospitals: Capital Investment will take place in the practice approximately eight weeks prior to GP General Extraction Service taking place. Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS England’s published planning guidance to the Health what funding is currently available to hospitals NHS for 2013-14 (‘Everyone Counts’ December 2012) for capital projects. [161189] setting the commitment for a core set of clinical data to be collected from GP practices form 2013-14. NHS Anna Soubry: Individual national health service trusts England has published the technical specification for and NHS foundation trusts are responsible for developing GP practices alongside BMA guidance for GPs. A and taking forward their own capital investment proposals. jointly signed statement from the BMA, RCGP and Where planned investment exceeds their available cash NHS England accompanied the guidance which can be resources, NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts can found at: apply to the Department for capital investment loans. www.england.nhs.uk/2013/05/29/nhs-england-annou-tech- They can also apply for an alternative type of funding, guide/ 209W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 210W

Medical Treatments conditions. In order to improve the quality of the programme budgeting data, the calculation methodology Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for is continually refined, as are the underlying data sources Health what proportion of the NHS budget was spent which support programme budgeting. Therefore, it is on (a) cancer treatments and (b) heart disease important to note that, programme budgeting data treatments in each of the last five years. [161118] cannot be used to analyse changes in investment in specific service areas between years. Anna Soubry: Estimates of national health service expenditure are available from programme budgeting Table 1 shows estimated expenditure on ″Cancer and data1. Within the programme budgeting framework, Tumours″ and ″Problems of Circulation″, which includes ″Cancer and tumours″ is treated as a main programme coronary heart disease as a subcategory2. Table 2 shows budgeting category, coronary heart disease is treated as the expenditure on each condition as a proportion of a subcategory2 of ″Problems of Circulation″. the total NHS expenditure, as reported through the 1 Programme budgeting data provides an analysis of programme budgeting collection . primary care trust (PCT) expenditure by specific healthcare

Table 1: Expenditure £ billion Programme budgeting category 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Cancers and Tumours 4.57 4.84 5.57 5.50 5.50

Problems of Circulation 6.33 6.66 7.17 6.99 6.92 Coronary Heart Disease 2.04 2.11 2.14 1.98 1.89 Cerebrovascular Disease 0.88 0.99 1.12 0.79 0.81 Problems of Rhythm 0.42 0.43 0.49 0.50 0.40 Other 2.99 3.12 3.42 3.72 3.82

Table 2: Proportion of total NHS expenditure Percentage Programme budgeting category 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Cancers and Tumours 6.2 6.2 6.4 6.0 6.0 Problems of Circulation 8.6 8.5 8.2 7.6 7.5 Coronary Heart Disease 2.8 2.7 2.4 2.2 2.0 Cerebrovascular Disease 1.2 1.3 1.3 0.9 0.9 Problems of Rhythm 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.5 0.4 Other 4.1 4.0 3.9 4.1 4.1 1 Expenditure data are calculated from PCT programme budgeting returns. Programme budgeting returns are based on a subset of PCT accounts data and represent a subset of overall NHS expenditure data. 2 As detailed above, ‘Coronary heart disease’ is treated as a sub-category within the main category ’Problems of circulation’. The allocation of expenditure to programme budgeting subcategories is not always straightforward, and subcategory level data should therefore be used with caution. Notes: 1.There have been continual refinements to the programme budgeting calculation methodology since the first collection in 2003-04. For years 2003-04 to 2009-10 programme budgeting data was calculated using provider costs as a basis. Significant changes were introduced in 2010-11 with programme budgeting data now being calculated using the price paid for specific activities and services purchased from healthcare providers. PCTs follow standard guidance, procedures and mappings when calculating programme budgeting data. 2. Calculating programme budgeting data is complex and not all healthcare activity or services can be classified directly to a programme budgeting category. When it is not possible to reasonably estimate a programme budgeting category, expenditure is classified as ’Other’. 3. Expenditure on General Medical Services and Personal Medical Services cannot be reasonably estimated at disease specific level, and is separately identified as a subcategory of ’Other’ expenditure.

Mental Health Services Mesothelioma Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance he has issued to local clinical Health how much funding (a) his Department and (b) commissioning groups on the importance of the National Institute for Health Research have commissioning good mental health services. [161195] allocated to research into mesothelioma in each of the last 20 years. [161146] Norman Lamb: No such guidance has been issued to the national health service by the Department. However, Anna Soubry: Prior to the establishment of the National the implementation framework for the mental health Institute for Health Research (NIHR) in April 2006, the strategy makes clear our expectation that improving the main part of the Department’s total health research commissioning of mental health services should form a expenditure was devolved to and managed by national vital element of clinical commissioning groups’ (CCG) health service organisations. and NHS England’s work to improve outcomes for The NHS organisations reported on their use of people with mental health problems. these allocations in annual research and development The application process for CCG authorisation requires reports. These reports identify total, aggregated expenditure organisations to demonstrate that they have sufficient on national priority areas, including cancer. They do planned capacity and capability to commission improved not provide details of research into particular cancer outcomes in mental health. sites. 211W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 212W

From April 2006 to March 2009, transitional research The Department estimates there were around 15,000 funding was allocated to these organisations at reducing HCHS staff in this situation in 2011-12. This is based levels. At the same time, an increasing amount of NHS on unvalidated data from the Electronic Staff Record research funding was awarded competitively through Data Warehouse. new NIHR programmes and schemes. All NHS specific data refers to HCHS staff only. Expenditure by the NIHR through research programmes, There may be some general practice or dental practice research centres and units, and research training awards staff not employed directly by the NHS, below these on mesothelioma research is shown in the following thresholds. table. NHS: Private Finance Initiative £ million Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 0.0 Health how many contracts for private finance 2007-08 0.0 initiative schemes in the NHS were signed prior to May 2008-09 0.0 1997; and what the total capital value of such contracts 2009-10 0.0 was. [160936] 2010-11 0.0 2011-12 0.0 Anna Soubry: No hospital private finance initiative 2012-13 0.2 contracts were signed prior to May 1997. NHS: Standards Total spend by the NIHR on mesothelioma research is higher than this because expenditure by the NIHR Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Clinical Research Network (CRN) on this topic cannot what steps have been taken to deliver the NHS be disaggregated from total CRN expenditure. Mandate objective of making rapid progress in the measuring of and acting upon the patient experience. [161460] NHS: Pay Dr Poulter: A major route by which we are achieving Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for this objective is through the implementation of the Health how many NHS staff earned less than the living Friends and Family Test (FFT). This improves services wage in each of the last five years. [161700] by making them more patient-centred and ensuring that they can respond quickly to feedback. It also means that commissioners and the public can hold services to Dr Poulter: The latest living wage rates, announced in account. November 2012, are £8.55 per hour in London and £7.45 per hour in the rest of the country. This equates to The FFT was implemented in acute inpatients and annual full-time equivalent earnings of £16,718 in London accident and emergency services on 1 April 2013. It is and £14,567 elsewhere. being rolled out to maternity services by October 2013 and all other services as soon as possible. Comparing these figures to the 2013-14 payscales, introduced in April 2013, for national health service The test gives all patients the opportunity to give hospital and community health services (HCHS) staff feedback about the care they received. Providers of suggests only those staff on Agenda for Change pay services can use FFT results very quickly afterwards in point 1 and not in receipt of high cost area supplement order to learn what is working well, or improve what payments would have earnings below the living wage could be working better. thresholds. The first set of national results from the FFT will be published towards the end of July and monthly thereafter. The Department estimates there are around 17,500 Providers and commissioners will be able to use the out of 1.2 million NHS HCHS staff in this situation. FFT as an early warning system for possible dips in This is based on unvalidated data from the Electronic performance, compare results between providers and Staff Record Data Warehouse. use results in commissioning. This is only the second time that a single hourly living The FFT builds on existing feedback mechanisms wage rates for those outside London have been available such as the National Patient Survey Programme run by for comparison with NHS HCHS payscales. The previous the Care Quality Commission and the GP Patient Survey, rate, announced in May 2011, was £7.20 per hour for and local ″real-time″ feedback methods. staff outside London. The equivalent figure for London was £8.30 per hour. This equates to annual full-time NHS England is building patient and public voice equivalent earnings of £16,299 in London and £14,079 into its policy and programme development so that elsewhere. patient experience is at the heart of how the organisation works. It recruited over 300 patient and public voice If these thresholds are compared to the 2012-13 representatives to the national Clinical Reference Groups payscales, no NHS HCHS staff were paid less than the for specialised services so that real experience of current living wage. NHS services is informing and shaping service improvement. If these thresholds are compared to the 2011-12 Furthermore, NHS England is leading work to gather payscales, only those staff on Agenda for Change pay and use patient feedback in a range of ways and support point 1 and not in receipt of high cost area supplement providers and commissioners to make use of this feedback payments would have earnings below the living wage to drive improvements. They are working with the voluntary thresholds. sector and patient groups to develop best practice in 213W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 214W listening and reflecting the experience of patients and In relation to representation from primary and secondary the public to better commission local services, as well as care on work to combat CSE, “Working Together to using assurance workshops that invite patients and Safeguard Children: A Guide to inter-agency working carers to review how their experience and comments to safeguard and promote the welfare of children,” have been acted upon. Toolkits such as the 15 Steps published in March 2013, includes statutory guidance Challenge, where staff and commissioners walk in the on individual services to safeguard children and a footsteps of patients, increases understanding of the framework for local safeguarding children board (LSCB) experience from the patient perspective. arrangements. NHS England, clinical commissioning groups, NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts are Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State members of LSCBs. Further supplementary guidance for Health what the annual cost to the public purse is of “Safeguarding Children and Young People from Sexual the Friends and Family Test. [161673] Exploitation”asks LSCBs to consider the local partnerships that would most effectively support implementation of Dr Poulter: Listening and acting on patient feedback this supplementary guidance. from patients is a fundamental part of improving the care that the national health service provides. A key Palliative Care benefit of the Friends and Family Test is that it enables providers to see feedback in real-time and act on it to Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for improve services. Furthermore, patients can compare Health whether his Department will commence the providers and commissioners and the public can hold review to assess the feasibility of introducing a national services to account. choice offer for people who wish to die at home. The impact assessment published by the Department [161457] in November 2012 estimated that the average annual costs for implementation of the Friends and Family Norman Lamb: We remain committed to supporting Test in acute inpatients and accident and emergency, people’s preferences to be cared for and to die at home, the first services in which it was implemented, would be and to carry out a review during 2013 to assess the approximately £5 million. However, actual implementation feasibility of introducing such an offer for people. costs will vary from provider to provider and cost data Departmental officials are currently determining how is not being collected centrally. best to undertake the review. A copy of the impact assessment has been placed in Pharmacy the Library and is available at: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/128461/DH-5169-Friends-and-Family- Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Test.pdf.pdf Health (1) what steps he is taking to enhance the role of pharmacists as providers of health care services; Offences Against Children [161197] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (2) what assessment he has made of the effects of what steps his Department is taking to ensure that (a) changes to local commissioning arrangements on all frontline health professionals are given training on funding and support for pharmacists to develop their the warning signs of child sexual exploitation and (b) role in giving consultations and prescribing to patients. representatives from both primary and secondary care [161198] within any local multi-agency combat child sexual exploitation. [161690] Norman Lamb: NHS England has responsibility for commissioning all national health service primary care Dr Poulter: Training strategies are now the primary services, including pharmaceutical services. Clinical responsibility of the newly-established Health Education commissioning groups (CCGs) are free to commission England working with its 13 local education and training further services from community pharmacies over and boards to develop plans to meet local needs. The relevant above those commissioned by NHS England, and local professional bodies and regulators are responsible for authorities are able to commission public health services training and curricula. from pharmacies. Any specific recommendations on training for health NHS England is currently developing a strategy for professionals on child sexual exploitation (CSE) will all of the services it is responsible for directly commissioning. emerge from the report, due at the end of this year, of This includes primary care services— which incorporates the Department’s working group on child sexual pharmaceutical services. It is anticipated that this strategy exploitation. The group was set to identify what more will be available by the end of 2013. could be done to improve the health response to CSE as Through the strategy, NHS England will be seeking one of the key actions under the cross-Government to ensure that it delivers best patient outcomes, quality action plan on CSE. The Academy of Medical Royal and best value. As part of the development of the Colleges also has work underway which will complement strategy, the role of community pharmacy will be considered that of the Health Working Group on CSE. so that its potential as a provider of health care services The Department has also publicised the ‘warning is maximised—given its unique ‘reach’ to patients in signs’ CSE checklist contained in the Office of the England. The strategy will also consider how funding is Children’s Commissioner report amongst health deployed across pathways of care that might be professionals (“I thought I was the only one. The only commissioned by NHS England, CCGs, who are best one in the world”—Office of the Children’s Commissioner’s placed to understand the needs of patients in each local Inquiry into child sexual exploitation in gangs and area, and local authorities with their responsibility for groups interim report November 2012). public health. 215W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 216W

It is too early in the new commissioning system to Table 1: Total number of occasions where a compromise agreement make any assessment of the effect of these changes on was used when an employee left the arm’s length bodies (ALBs) the development of community pharmacy’s role. employment Total

Public Expenditure 2010-11 19 2011-12 56 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 6 Health what assessment he has made of the equality impact of his Department’s spending reductions since Table 2: Total number of occasions where a confidentiality clause was used when 2010; whether this assessment has been used to inform an employee left the ALB’s employment his planning ahead of the 2013 Comprehensive Total Spending Review and with what result; what plans he 2010-11 19 has to publish the equality impact assessments 2011-12 56 undertaken by his Department as a result of the 2012-13 6 upcoming Comprehensive Spending Review; and if he will make a statement. [161180] Table 3: Total number of occasions where judicial mediation was used when an employee left the ALB’s employment Anna Soubry: The Department considers equality Total issues in exercising its functions, including in setting priorities within its budget, in order to comply with 2010-11 0 equality legislation and to ensure it understands how its 2011-12 0 activities will affect specific groups in society. Between 2012-13 2 2010-11 and 2014-15 health funding will have risen by £12.7 billion. Compromise agreements and confidentiality clauses should not prevent staff from speaking out on patient Specifically, for the 2012 pre-spending round, and safety issues. spending round 2013 HM Treasury commissioned Departments to provide equalities assessments of their main areas of existing expenditure. Tobacco: EU Law The Department provided HM Treasury with an equalities assessment of its main areas of expenditure, Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health as well as some additional areas of spending that have (1) what position the UK will take at the EU Health particular equalities impacts, both before and during and Consumer Affairs Council in Luxembourg on the spending round process. 21 June 2012 in relation to the EU Tobacco Products Directive; [161186] The Department’s overall spending round submission was informed by its own equality assessments and by (2) on what occasions Ministers or officials of his the spending round equalities assessment commissioned Department have met Members of the European by HM Treasury. Parliament to discuss the EU Tobacco Products The assessment of equalities feeds in to both spending Directive; and who was present at each such meeting; round decisions and future decisions by the Department. [161187] The outcome of the spending round will be published (3) what discussions he has had with ministerial on 26 June 2013. colleagues in other departments on his Department’s This Government has been clear that producing formal position on the EU Tobacco Products Directive. equality impact assessment documents are not required [161188] in order to ensure compliance with the legal responsibility to consider equality impacts. Anna Soubry: The United Kingdom lent its support to the proposed Tobacco Products Directive at the Termination of Employment European Union Health and Consumer Affairs Council meeting in Luxembourg on 21 June 2013 subject to an amendment to Article 24 being made. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on how many occasions (a) a compromise agreement, No departmental Minister has met Members of the (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial mediation European Parliament to discuss the Tobacco Products was used when an employee of (i) his Department and Directive. (ii) the public bodies for which he is responsible left An official from the Department of Health met Ms Linda their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) McAvan MEP, rapporteur for the ENVI Committee, to 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [160908] discuss the Tobacco Products Directive in February 2013, together with an official from the UK Permanent Anna Soubry: No officials leaving the Department’s Representation to the EU. employment have been subject to a compromise agreement, Officials from the Medicines and Healthcare products confidentiality clause or judicial mediation during 2010-11, Regulatory Agency also met Ms McAvan on 18 March 2011-12 and 2012-13 respectively. 2013. In addition, they met Ms Rebecca Taylor MEP on The Department’s Executive agencies, non-departmental 22 April 2013. On both occasions, the meetings were public bodies and special health authorities have provided held at the request of the MEP with purpose of briefing the following information on compromise agreements, them on the work of the Commission on Human Medicines confidentiality clauses and judicial mediation set out in expert group on the regulation of nicotine containing the following tables: products. 217W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 218W

An official from the MHRA also attended an European Energy Companies Obligation Parliament ENVI workshop on e-cigarettes on 7 May 2013, of which there is a public record available at: Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/envi/ and Climate Change what steps he has taken to ensure events.html?id=workshops#menuzone that energy suppliers release Energy Company Departmental Ministers have corresponded with Obligation grants for hard-to-treat walls promptly and Members of the Cabinet’s European Affairs Committee effectively. [160979] regarding the proposed directive. Gregory Barker: The energy company obligation (ECO) places a legal requirement on obligated suppliers to deliver carbon and fuel bill savings, which can be achieved ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE through delivering a range of energy efficiency measures. Arctic It is a commercial decision for obligated suppliers on how they choose to fulfil their obligations, subject to Mr Lilley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the rules of the scheme. and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 10 June Energy: Conservation 2013, Official Report, column 20W, on the Arctic, what assessment he has made of the likelihood of the statistical model used by Meier et al. relative to a Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy driftless autoregressive integrated model. [161269] and Climate Change what measures he has taken to ensure that whole-house fuel saving measures are being Gregory Barker: I refer my right hon. Friend to the funded by energy suppliers under the (a) Energy answer I gave him on 10 June 2013, Official Report, Company Obligation and (b) Green Deal. [160988] column 20W, and note that we have not made any such assessment nor do we plan to commission any. Gregory Barker: The Energy Company Obligation (ECO) places a legal requirement on obligated suppliers Electricity: Prices to deliver carbon and fuel bill savings, which can be achieved through delivering a range of energy efficiency Andy McDonald: To ask the Secretary of State for measures. It is a commercial decision for obligated Energy and Climate Change what steps his suppliers on how they choose to fulfil their obligations, Department has taken to ensure that households which subject to the rules of the scheme. consume small amounts of electricity are not adversely Green Deal assessments are designed to encourage a affected by Ofgem’s decision that all electricity tariffs whole-house approach by recommending all suitable must include a standing charge. [161676] measures for the property and presenting them as a Michael Fallon: Ofgem’s proposals require suppliers single, cohesive package of improvements. to structure tariffs as a standing charge and unit rate, but they do not specify at what level the standing charge Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for should be set. Energy and Climate Change how low income households are being encouraged to receive energy This gives suppliers the freedom to offer tariffs with a efficiency assistance under the Energy Companies low standing charge or even set the standing charge at Obligation. [161566] zero should they wish to offer a tariff targeted at low consuming households. Gregory Barker: The ECO places a legal obligation Ofgem will require suppliers to calculate the standing on energy supply companies to deliver a minimum charge as a daily charge in pounds and pence. Consumers amount of support to low income households and will therefore be able to compare tariffs more easily and those living in low income areas, through the Affordable see which tariffs offer the best value in relation to their Warmth and Carbon Saving Communities obligations. consumption. Together these will assist around 230,000 households Energy each year. Obligated energy suppliers can choose how to market these schemes to encourage take-up among Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy low income households. and Climate Change what steps he has taken to ensure In order to assist with this, Government has set-up an that energy suppliers have an incentive to meet their independent telephone advice service. Customers who obligations to consumers under the (a) Energy call the Energy, Saving Advice Service (ESAS) and Company Obligation scheme and (b) Green Deal appear eligible for ECO Affordable Warmth assistance scheme. [160938] will have their eligibility checked with the Department for Work and Pensions and are then referred to a Gregory Barker: Consumers are protected under the participating energy supplier for a minimum package of ECO legislation, which for example requires that ECO assistance. measures, where appropriate, must be installed to the PAS 2030 standard. Ofgem as administrator of the Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme will ensure these standards are met. All accredited Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Green Deal businesses must comply with the Green of the proportion of money used by energy suppliers Deal Code of Practice which determines how they work under the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target and in the interests of consumers. If an organisation is Community Energy Saving Programme programmes found to be in breach of this code they will be investigated solely for identifying Super Priority Group customers. and their accreditation may be revoked. [161602] 219W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 220W

Gregory Barker: The Carbon Emissions Reduction Gregory Barker: Data-matching is a key element of Target (CERT) and Community Energy Saving programme the Warm Home Discount scheme. This scheme, which (CESP) were legal obligations on the larger energy DECC operates jointly with the Department for Work companies. and Pensions, leads to the automatic payment of an Energy companies were not required to report costs electricity bill discount to over one million of the poorest information, and we do not hold information about pensioners. Participating energy suppliers can also use delivery costs. However, the final evaluation of both the results of data-matching under the Warm Home schemes will be published later in 2013 and we intend Discount to target delivery of energy efficiency support that this will include an assessment of overall delivery (for example under the Energy Company Obligation, costs. ECO). DECC also works closely with DWP in the operation Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for of the ECO referrals system, which ensures that customers Energy and Climate Change what calculations he has eligible for ECO support who contact the Energy Saving made of the potential value of matching household Advice Service are passed on to participating energy incomes and energy performance certificates data to suppliers for a minimum package of assistance. target households who would benefit from the installation of energy efficiency measures. [161604] Green Deal Scheme

Gregory Barker: We have made no assessment of the Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy technical feasibility of matching income and EPC data and Climate Change what recent assessment he has nor of the potential value of such matching. made of the level of bureaucracy in the Green Deal. The Government is committed to producing a new [160155] fuel poverty strategy. We expect this work to include consideration of how best to target fuel poverty support Gregory Barker: The Green Deal launched on 28 January at those who need it most. 2013. It is being delivered by the private sector, with Government having created a framework within which Energy: Housing businesses can operate and consumers are protected. The Department is publishing monthly statistics setting out progress. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many homes have benefited from the (a) Energy Company Obligation and (b) Heating Green Deal to date. [161090] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: DECC will publish, on 27 June, a Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to monthly Official Statistics publication that will include take if individual air source heat pumps and ground this information for the energy company obligation and source heat pumps do not, when installed, reach Green Deal. co-efficients of performance of at least 2.9. [161111]

Fuel Poverty Gregory Barker: Heat pump performance is measured by both the coefficient of performance, which is laboratory efficiency and seasonal performance factor, which is the Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for efficiency over the different seasonal conditions. Minimum Energy and Climate Change whether there has been requirements for laboratory efficiency are set out in the any successful use of data matching to assist energy Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS). All MCS suppliers in finding households in fuel poverty. [161601] heat pumps must meet a minimum coefficient of performance of at least 3. Gregory Barker: Data matching is a key feature of the Warm Home Discount scheme. As a result of matching The MCS heat pump standard has been recently data held by the Department of Work and Pensions revised to drive improvements in the performance of with data held by participating energy suppliers, a large heat pump installations. number of pensioners receive automatic electricity bill discounts each year. In 2012-13, over one million low Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for income pensioners received such discounts (worth £130). Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to The Government has also taken the steps necessary include gas absorption heat pumps in the next iteration to allow energy suppliers participating in the scheme to of the Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme. [161112] use the results of data-matching under the Warm Home Discount to target energy efficiency measures (for example Gregory Barker: DECC intends to work with industry under the Energy Company Obligation). to build the evidence base and complete the modelling and analysis necessary to evaluate the case for support Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for for these technologies Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has My officials have recently met with representatives of had with his ministerial colleagues in other the heat driven heat pump industry, which includes gas departments about sharing household data with energy absorption heat pumps, to discuss the processes and suppliers to ensure a strategic approach to tackling fuel timelines for new technologies to be added to the Renewable poverty. [161603] Heat Incentive. 221W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 222W

Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: Cavity wall and loft insulation delivered under CERT, Cannock Chase Energy and Climate Change whether gas absorption constituency 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 to 31 1 April 2012 to 31 heat pumps are classifiable as renewable energy 31 March 2011 March 2012 December 2012 heating. [161114] Cavity wall 614 678 680 insulation Gregory Barker: Heat driven heat pumps, such as gas Loft 794 1,172 1,620 absorption heat pumps, are classified as renewable heating insulation technologies in the Renewable Energy Sources Directive providing that they meet the eligibility requirements, The following table shows the number of installations including the seasonal performance factor in the final of insulation measures under Warm Front in the Cannock Decision on Annex 7 of the Directive dated 1 March Chase constituency. 2013. Table 2: Installations of insulation under Warm Front, Cannock Chase constituency Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 to 31 1 April 2012 to 31 Energy and Climate Change whether gas driven heat 31 March 2011 March 2012 March 2013 pumps are eligible for the Renewable Heat Incentive. [161115] Cavity wall 19 3 — insulation Loft 19 9 3 Gregory Barker: Installations using engine driven insulation heat pumps, including those driven by gas engines, may be eligible for the renewable heat incentive if all other Insulation: Housing requirements of the scheme are met, including achieving a minimum coefficient of performance of 2.9. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many grants for hard-to-treat Hydrofluorocarbons wall insulation have been made under the Energy Company Obligation scheme to date. [160989] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: Under the energy company obligation Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has (ECO), obligated energy suppliers are required to meet made of the rate and amount of emissions of carbon emission and bill saving targets by promoting refrigerant hydrofluocarbons from (a) gas absorption the delivery of energy efficiency measures—it is not a heat pumps and (b) ground source heat pumps and air grant scheme. For information, DECC will publish, on source heat pumps powered by electricity. [161113] 27 June, a monthly Official Statistics publication that will cover progress on ECO delivery. Gregory Barker: DECC has no specific assessment of the rate of leakage of hydrofluorocarbon refrigerants from gas absorption heat pumps. These heat pumps mostly use ammonia or water as a refrigerant; ammonia CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT heat pumps are designed to ensure zero leakage for safety reasons. Apprentices DECC has commissioned a study on the leakage rate of refrigerants (including hydrofluorocarbons) from a Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, range of electric-powered heat pumps. The study will Media and Sport how many apprenticeships have been also examine the impact of proposed EU legislation on created in her Department in (a) Barnsley Central the likely uptake of refrigerants with lower global warming constituency and (b) South Yorkshire in (i) 2010, (ii) potential. The study aims to report in early 2014. 2011 and (iii) 2012. [161696]

Insulation: Cannock Chase Hugh Robertson: All of the offices for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport are in London and, as such, DCMS has not created any apprenticeships in the Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Barnsley Central constituency or South Yorkshire in and Climate Change how many homes in Cannock 2010, 2011 or 2012. Chase constituency have received insulation under his Department’s programmes in each of the last three Betting Shops years. [161262] Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: The Energy Savings Trust (EST) Culture, Media and Sport whether her Department or publishes reports on cavity wall insulation and professionally its agencies have commissioned research into any installed loft insulation delivered through the Carbon potential relationship between clusters of betting shops Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) as recorded in the and the prevalence of anti-social behaviour; and if she Homes Energy Efficiency Database. The following table will make a statement. [161660] shows the number of installations of cavity wall and loft insulation under CERT in each of the last three Hugh Robertson: Antisocial behaviour tends to reflect years for the Cannock Chase constituency, as published local circumstances and any research would be most by EST. The CERT year runs from the 1 April to appropriately carried out by agencies in local areas. The 31 March, the final year of CERT runs from l April Department for Culture, Media and Sport and its agencies 2012 to 31 December 2012. have not commissioned research into this area. 223W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 224W

Disciplinary Proceedings Sports: Schools

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many staff were Culture, Media and Sport what funding her suspended from her Department and its associated Department provided to sport in schools in (a) Jarrow public bodies on full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (c) 2012-13; and what costs were incurred as a and (d) the UK in each of the last five years. [160469] result of such suspensions. [160409] Hugh Robertson: As part of the Department for Maria Miller: The number of staff suspended and Culture, Media and Sport-led School Games programme, costs incurred are as follows: Sport England (SE) will directly invest in the North (a) FY 2010-11: two suspensions at a total cost of £31,314 East £1,574,691 over the period 2010-15. This includes (gross); £640,000 to County Sport Partnerships (on behalf of (b) FY 2011-12: two suspensions at a total cost of £11,525 the Local Organising Committees) in the North East, of (gross); which £160,000 is for Tyne and Wear to organise, (c) FY 2012-13: one suspension at a total cost of £5,268 co-ordinate and deliver the Level 3 Sainsbury’s School (gross). Games county festivals. In addition, the North East has The figures provided equate to the individuals’ salaries 27 School Games Organisers, which are jointly funded and total costs to the Department during their suspensions. by the Department of Health and SE. SE’s contribution The figures at a, b and c reflect that no staff were is £934,691 over the period, of which £77,891 is for suspended from the Government Equalities Office on Tyne and Wear’s nine School Games Organisers. In full pay in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. addition, SE has also invested, to date, a total of £8,467,490 in the Place People Play (PPP) programme in the North Internet East. Finally, from September this year, every primary school will receive a ring fenced amount for school Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for sport, averaging out at £9,000 per school across the Culture, Media and Sport what technical expertise her country. Department has to advise Ministers on internet Over the period 2008-11, DCMS and the Department matters. [161687] for Education jointly funded the £755 million Physical Education and Sport Strategy for YoungPeople (PESSYP). Mr Vaizey: There are specialist technical advisers, As part of this, £36 million was invested via County working across Government, on whose technical expertise Sport Partnerships, to support local community taster Ministers draw. sessions for young people aged 11 to 19 through the Leicester Sport Unlimited initiative. This included £2,256,646 invested in the North East and £746,844 in Tyne and Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Wear. Media and Sport (1) when she last visited Leicester in an official capacity; how many times and on what dates she has visited Leicester since her appointment; and CABINET OFFICE what plans she has to visit Leicester; [158034] (2) on what dates the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Big Society Network of State for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries has visited Leicester since his appointment; Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if he will publish evaluations of the performance and when he next plans to visit Leicester. [157992] of the Big Society Network and its subsidiaries for the Maria Miller: I visited Leicester on 14 February, to programmes for which his Department has directly or appear on the BBC show, Question Time. Either I or indirectly funded; and if he will make a statement. the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative [160935] Industries, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), will be sure to visit Leicester in the coming Mr Hurd: As part of the grant to Big Society Network months, as well as all the other candidate cities, to (BSN) under the Social Action Fund, BSN was required celebrate its success at being short-listed for the title of by Social Investment Business to produce monitoring UK City of Culture 2017. reports setting out progress against expected outcomes prior to releasing payment. A copy of the BSN and Sports Sports Leader’s UK monitoring report for the Get In campaign was released in May 2013 and a copy has Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for been placed in the House of Common’s Library. A final Culture, Media and Sport what recent assessment she evaluation was not produced, as a decision was made in has made of the effects of the London 2012 Olympic December 2012 to put the project on hold. and Paralympic Games on rates of participation in The Cabinet Office will continue to evaluate Big sport. [161710] Society Network’s performance in relation to the Big Society Awards. Hugh Robertson: The latest Active People Survey figures show 15.3 million people, aged 16 and over, are Construction: Barnsley playing sport, at least once a week. That is 1.4 million more than when London won the Olympic and Paralympic Michael Dugher: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet bid, and includes an increase of 46,600 in the number of Office how many people in Barnsley East constituency disabled people playing sport, over the past year. are employed in the construction sector. [161556] 225W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 226W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the National and local area estimates for many labour market responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant asked the authority to reply. count are available on the NOMIS website at: Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Small Businesses: Staffordshire have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking how many people in Mr Burley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Barnsley East constituency are employed in the construction what estimate he has made of the number of (a) small sector. [161556] and (b) medium-sized businesses that were operating Annual employment statistics are available from the Business in (i) Cannock Chase constituency and (ii) Register and Employment Survey (BRES). The number of people Staffordshire in each of the last five years. [161259] in Barnsley East constituency employed in the construction sector is 1,800, rounded to the nearest 100. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the National and local area estimates for many labour market responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant asked the authority to reply. count are available on the NOMIS website at: Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Manufacturing Industries: Barnsley to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking what estimate has been made of (a) small and (b) medium-sized businesses operating Michael Dugher: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet in (i) Cannock Chase constituency and (ii) Staffordshire in each Office how many people in Barnsley East constituency of the last five years. [161259] are employed in the manufacturing sector. [161560] Annual statistics on the number of businesses (enterprises) are available from the ONS release – UK Business: Activity, Size and Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Location at: responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-register/uk-business/ asked the authority to reply. index.html Data on the number of enterprises broken down by districts, Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: counties and unitary authorities within region and country by As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I employment size band can be found in table B1.2 of the publication have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question and data broken down by constituencies can be found in table to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking how many people in B6.2. Barnsley East constituency are employed in the manufacturing The table below contains the count of small and medium-sized sector. [161560] businesses that were operating in the Cannock Chase constituency Annual employment statistics are available from the Business and Staffordshire from 2008 to 2012. Small businesses have been Register and Employment Survey (BRES). The number of people defined as those with an employment between 0 and 49 and in Barnsley East constituency employed in the manufacturing medium-sized businesses as those with an employment between sector is 3,900, rounded to the nearest 100. 50 and 249.

2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Small Medium Small Medium Small Medium Small Medium Small Medium

Cannock Chase 3,265 35 3,175 35 2,960 25 2,905 30 2,955 35 Staffordshire 28,985 375 28,690 355 27,805 355 27,345 350 27,665 375 Note: These numbers do not include very small businesses, typically those below the threshold for VAT and PAYE.

Teenage Pregnancy: Cannock Chase constituency of Cannock Chase. Figures cannot be provided for parliamentary constituencies because of the risk of disclosing information on conceptions due to small differences with local Mr Burley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office authority boundaries. how many teenage pregnancies there have been in Cannock Chase constituency in each of the last five The latest year for which conception statistics are available is years. [161208] 2011. Number of conceptions to women aged under 18, Cannock Chase, Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2007-11 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Number of conceptions asked the authority to reply. 2007 100 Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: 2008 112 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 2009 110 have been asked to reply to your recent question to the Minister 2010 87 for the Cabinet Office asking how many teenage pregnancies 2011 73 there have been in Cannock Chase constituency in each of the last five years [161208]. Source: Office for National Statistics This question has been answered using conception statistics to women aged under 18 to represent teenage pregnancies. Conception The number of conceptions to women aged under 18 by area statistics are estimated for women usually resident in England and of usual residence, England and Wales 1998-2011 are available on Wales and are based on birth registrations and abortion records. the ONS website (see table 6): The number of teenage conceptions is available for the non- www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/conception-statistics--england- metropolitan district of Cannock Chase rather than the parliamentary and-wales/2011/rft-conception-statistics-2011.xls 227W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 228W

Termination of Employment However, the Interim 2011-based subnational population projections for England are produced using trend- based assumptions about future levels of fertility, mortality and migration as calculated Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for the 2010-based subnational population projections which do Office on how many occasions (a) a compromise not incorporate 2011 Census information. agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial Subnational population projections are not forecasts and do mediation was used when an employee of (i) his not attempt to predict the impact of future government policies, Department and (ii) the public bodies for which he is changing economic circumstances or the capacity of an area to responsible left their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) accommodate a change in population. They provide an indication 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13; and if he will make a of the future size and age structure of the population if recent statement. [160900] demographic trends continued. ONS are planning to release the 2012-based Subnational Population Mr Hurd: As was the case under the previous Projections to take account of rebased fertility, migration and mortality assumptions to include results from the 2011 Census, in Administration, the Cabinet Office always considers spring 2014. whether compromise agreements and confidentiality clauses issued by the Department are appropriate and necessary and always ensures that non-disclosure clauses allow disclosure for business needs and the requirements INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT of law, including accountability to Parliament. Developing Countries: Health Services In the last three years, five civil servants in the Cabinet Office signed compromise agreements which contain a Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State non-disclosure clause. We do not know how many were for International Development what technical support signed prior to 2010 as, unfortunately, records are not her Department offers to developing countries to held available. There have not been any judicially mediated them achieve universal health coverage. [161353] settlements by the Cabinet Office in the last three years. The Government Procurement Service has not used any Mr Duncan: Moving towards universal health coverage compromise agreements, confidentiality clauses or judicial requires countries to ensure that all aspects of their mediation during the last three years. health systems—including health workers, medicines Until 2012 the Big Lottery Fund had a common and commodities, equipment, financing arid practice of issuing compromise agreements to most management—are working well. DFID provides technical staff who were dismissed on the grounds of redundancy. support directly to countries in ail of these areas. DFID This occurred whether the individual’s exit from the also uses multilateral organisations to provide technical organisation was contentious or not, but was linked to support. For example, DFID is funding the World their access to post employment outplacement benefits. Health Organization (WHO) to help more than 20 countries From April 2007 to March 2010 there were 98 compromise develop and implement health financing strategies based agreements issued. During 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 on the best available evidence and aimed at achieving the Fund issued 25, nine and nine compromise agreements universal health coverage. In order to strengthen WHO’s respectively. The Big Lottery Fund did not use any own capacity to do this work, DFID has also seconded confidentiality clauses or judicially mediated settlements a health financing specialist to WHO for three years. in the last three years. Compromise agreements are now only used in appropriate circumstances where there may Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State be a dispute between the Fund and an ex-employee. for International Development what private health insurance projects her Department has supported in Young People developing countries. [161354] Mr Duncan: DFID has not supported private health Alex Cunningham: To ask the Minister for the insurance projects in developing countries. Cabinet Office whether data collected in the 2011 Census, relating to the number of 16 to 18-year-olds in the current year and the next 10 years, matches that provided by the Office of National Statistics in its latest EDUCATION sub-national population projections; and if he will Academies: Romford make a statement. [161605] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Education what assessment he has made of the (a) responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have take up and (b) performance of academies in Romford asked the authority to reply. constituency. [161424] Letter from Glen Watson, dated June 2013: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics I Mr Timpson: As of 20 June 2013, there were four have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to the open secondary converter academies in Romford Minister for the Cabinet Office asking whether data collected in constituency. In addition, there are two schools in the the 2011 Census, relating to the number of 16 to 18 year olds in process of becoming academies: one sponsored primary the current year and the next ten years, matches that provided by academy and one converter secondary academy. the Office for National Statistics in its latest sub-national population projections [161605]. Information about the performance of all schools in Romford constituency can be found on the Department’s Estimates of future population are available as population 1 projections. The most recent are the Interim 2011-based subnational website . This information indicates school type, including population projections which are based on mid-2011 population academies. estimates, which are in turn based on 2011 Census estimates. 1 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/ 229W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 230W

Apprentices Local authorities would be required to involve local children and young people with special educational Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for needs and their parents in developing and reviewing Education what discussions he has had with the their local offer and the special educational and social Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on ensuring care services that are available in their area. that individuals with education and health care plans Local authorities, would be required to publish comments have support and access in to apprenticeships. [161344] from, or on behalf of children, young people and their families on the content of the local offer alongside their Mr Laws: The reforms in the Children and Families response to these comments, they would also be required Bill make it clear that young people with special educational to keep their local offer under review and up to date in needs who have Education, Health and Care Plans will order to ensure that it continued to be responsive to have support and access into apprenticeships. The training local needs and aspirations. provider supporting the young person’s apprenticeship will be named in the Plan and the local authority and Children: Internet relevant commissioning body will continue to be responsible for securing and arranging the special educational and Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for health care provision. Young people who are disabled Education whether his Department will continue to be and accessing apprenticeships will be able to apply for the lead Department on child internet safety. [161664] additional support from the Department for Work and Pension’s Access to Work scheme—regardless of whether Mr Timpson: The Department for Education currently they have an Education, Health and Care Plan. provides the Secretariat for the UK Council for Child The Department for Education and the Department Internet Safety, the board of which is chaired by Ministers for Business, Innovation and Skills’ Joint Apprenticeship from the Department for Education, the Department Unit continue to work with the Department for Work for Culture, Media and Sport and the Home Office. and Pensions to ensure that the new SEN Code of Child internet safety is a cross-Government issue which Practice provides clear guidance on young people with Ministers will keep under review to determine how it Education, Health and Care Plans accessing apprenticeships. can best be addressed. Billing Children: Protection

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment his Department has made Education which serious case reviews have been of the potential financial benefits that could be published since 10 June 2010, by (a) date, (b) subject achieved by paying suppliers early in return for rebates. and (c) commissioning local safeguarding children’s [160932] board. [161665] Elizabeth Truss: It is Government policy to pay valid invoices within 10 days for small and medium-sized Mr Timpson: The Department is aware of 58 Serious enterprises and 30 days for other types of organisation. Case Review (SCR) overview reports which have been The Department for Education aims to pay all organisations published since 10 June 2010. This is in addition to within 10 days and the prices we pay reflect this overview reports of the SCRs relating to Peter Connelly arrangement. in Haringey, the ’J’ children in Ellington and Kyra Shaq in Birmingham. The following table gives details of the As part of the tendering process we ask suppliers to 58 SCR overview reports by date of publication, subject provide details of discounts for prompt payment. Where and the name of the commissioning Local Safeguarding early payment is requested we will carry out a risk Children Board (LSCB). assessment and negotiate with suppliers to obtain the best value for money for the Government. Date published Subject LSCB

Children: Disability 1 August 2012 Child X Barnsley 8 April 2013 Child L Barnsley Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 30 November 2012 Child B Bexley Education what steps he is taking to ensure that local 7 June 2013 Case No. 2011/12-02 Birmingham authorities improve their support for disabled children 31 May 2013 Baby J Bournemouth and young people. [160840] 18 January 2013 Child B Bracknell Forest 16 August 2011 Child M Bristol Mr Timpson: We are introducing wide ranging reforms 4 September 2012 Child K Bristol through the Children and Families Bill to improve 7 May 2013 Baby C Bucks provision for children and young people with special 13 April 2012 Baby A Bury educational needs, many of whom will be disabled. 31 August 2012 Child D Bury The Bill includes proposals for local authorities to 13 December 2012 Child W Coventry publish a local offer of services for children and young 24 April 2013 Child C Dudley people with special educational needs. 7 June 2013 Child S Durham The local offer would enable families to see readily 28 September 2012 Child Q Durham what they can expect from mainstream services across 20 March 2013 Child R Durham education, health and social care; how to access more 14 June 2013 Ryan Essex specialist support; how decisions are made including 6 June 2013 Baby A Gateshead eligibility criteria for accessing services where appropriate; 6 January 2012 Child 310 Gloucestershire and how to complain or appeal. 5 October 2011 Child D Havering 231W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 232W

The Department is aware of 203 SCRs that have been Date published Subject LSCB initiated since 10 June 2010. Of those, the overview 23 May 2012 Child E Havering reports of 58 have been published. 119 SCRs have 1 March 2012 Children B and C Islington commenced but are not yet published, for a number of 27 July 2012 Ashley Kent reasons including completion of court proceedings. The 10 December 2012 Amy Kent Department is aware of 26 cases where LSCBs have 24 October 2012 Death of a child aged 2 Kirklees said they are not able to publish the SCR overview years and 11 months report because of concerns about protecting the welfare 24 January 2013 Baby J Lanes of individuals. 10 January 2012 Case A Leicester City 15 August 2012 Baby L Leicester City Extended Schools 22 November 2012 Child R Leicester City 21 June 2013 Family T/S Lincolnshire 10 May 2013 Child D Liverpool Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for 4 December 2012 Child V Manchester Education (1) what steps his Department has taken to 28 February 2013 Child U Manchester increase the availability of wrap-around childcare in 31 May 2013 Callus Medway schools; [161026] 26 January 2012 The Sexual Abuse of N Somerset (2) what guidance he has issued to schools on the Pupils in a First School provision of wrap-around childcare services since May 21 January 2013 Child A NE Lincs 2010; [161027] 28 September 2011 Tammy Nixon Northants 23 July 2012 DN11 Nottinghamshire (3) what specific funding his Department has 14 May 2012 Subject Child Peterborough provided to increase the availability of wrap-around 11 October 2011 Child G Poole childcare in schools in each year since May 2005. [161028] 23 December 2011 Child E Reading 29 May 2012 Child S Rotherham 18 April 2013 Baby D Slough Elizabeth Truss: We want to make it easier for out-of- 18 April 2013 Baby A and Baby B Somerset hours provision to be made available on school sites, 15 October 2012 Child F Southampton and to ensure children have fair access to these services. 15 February 2013 SOT12(1) Stoke Through the Children and Families Bill we are removing 21 August 2012 Child L Surrey barriers that may be holding schools back from running 6 March 2013 Child A Sutton before and after school and holiday care onsite, either 28 February 2012 Child K Tameside themselves or in partnership with other providers. 4 November 2011 Child 24 Torbay Guidance for schools on providing or commissioning 3 December 2012 Abigail Wakefield child care before or after the school day has been 13 June 2013 Christine Wakefield included in the Governors’ Handbook in 2012 and 1 1 December 2011 Child W2 Walsall 2013 . 5 April 2012 Child B Waltham Forest Between 2005 and 2011 specific funding was allocated 4 May 2012 Child GA Warwickshire for Extended Services of which child care was one of 18 March 2013 Child G West Sussex the five core elements. The Department does not hold 1 March 2013 Child G Wirral information on specific funding for wrap-around child 5 June 2013 W Family 1— care as funding was not ring-fenced for each of the five 1 Court Reporting Restriction Order in place until 2029 not allowing the elements. identification of anyone in the family or their location. Overview Report published on the Association of Independent LSCB Chairs website as the Between 2005 and 2008 £840 million was allocated to geographical location of the family cannot be revealed. provide extended services in schools. This was paid through the Standards Fund, Sure Start General Grant Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Revenue and Capital and the Schools Standard Grant. Education (1) which serious case reviews are currently Between 2008 and 2011 £1.2 billion was allocated for commissioned but unpublished; [161666] providing extended services through the Area Based (2) which serious case reviews have been produced Grant, the Standards Fund and the Single Capital Pot. since 10 June 2010 but are subject to (a) a request not Since April 2011, extended services funding—that to publish and (b) an exemption from the obligation to the Standards Fund previously provided—has formed publish. [161667] part of schools’ overall budgets. Head teachers and governors are best placed to decide how to use their Mr Timpson: The information held by the Department budgets to support their pupils. is provided by individual Local Safeguarding Children’s 1 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/governance/ Boards (LSCB). Statutory guidance sets out the criteria b00224781/govhandbook for initiating a Serious Case Review (SCR) and the expectation is that SCRs will be published. The Department Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for does not exempt LSCBs from publishing an SCR. It is Education what estimate he has made of the (a) for each LSCB to take the decision as to whether or not number and (b) proportion of free schools in England to publish. From 1 July 2013 a national panel of providing (i) breakfast clubs and (ii) after-school clubs. independent experts will be fully operational. The panel [161029] will advise, and where appropriate, challenge LSCBs on any case where an LSCB has concerns about publication Elizabeth Truss: The Department has made no estimate of an SCR report and/or intends not to publish an SCR of the number and proportion of free schools in England report. providing breakfast clubs and after-school clubs. 233W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 234W

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Staffordshire and (b) Cannock Chase constituency Education what estimate he has made of the (a) were eligible for free schools meals in (i) primary and number and (b) proportion of mainstream schools in (ii) secondary schools in each of the last three years. England providing extended services at (i) 1 May 2010 [161260] and (ii) 1 May 2013. [161030] Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not hold information on the number and proportion of mainstream Mr Laws: Information on the number and percentage schools in England providing extended services between of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free May 2010 and May 2013. school meals in state-funded primary and secondary schools in Cannock Chase constituency, Staffordshire Free School Meals: Staffordshire local authority and England is shown in the following tables: Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proportion of children in (a)

State-funded primary1, 2 2011 2012 2013 Number of Percentage Number of Percentage Number of Percentage pupils of pupils pupils of pupils pupils of pupils known to be known to be known to be known to be known to be known to be eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming Number on free school free school Number on free school free school Number on free school free school roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals

England 3,866,885 741,315 19.2 3,941,625 759,040 19.3 4,039,970 774,610 19:2 Staffordshire 57,280 8,064 14.1 57,908 7,952 13.7 59,005 7,980 13.5 local authority Cannock Chase 6,881 1,220 17.7 6,871 1,182 17.2 6,946 1,209 17.4 parliamentary constituency

State-funded secondary1, 3 2011 2012 2013 Number of Percentage Number of Percentage Number of Percentage pupils of pupils pupils of pupils pupils of pupils known to be known to be known to be known to be known to be known to be eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for eligible for and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming and claiming Number on free school free school Number on free school free school Number on free school free school roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals roll4, 5 meals4, 5 meals

England 2,837,825 450,275 15.9 2,809,815 449,485 16.0 2,779,190 452,600 16,3 Staffordshire 49,184 5,189 10.6 48,567 5,199 10.7 47,392 4,965 10.5 local authority Cannock Chase 5,748 770 13.4 5,599 752 13.4 5,240 673 12.8 parliamentary constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes all primary academies, including free schools. 3 Includes city technology colleges and all secondary academies, including free schools. 4 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. Includes boarders. In pupil referral units includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. 5 Pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between 5 and 15. Source: School Census. National figures have been rounded to the nearest 5.

Human Trafficking: Curriculum Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group

Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many times Ministers of his Education if he will consider including awareness of Department have attended the inter-ministerial group human trafficking in the secondary school curriculum. on drugs since May 2010. [161581] [160991] Mr Timpson: Ministers from the Department for Education have attended the inter-ministerial group on Elizabeth Truss: Schools may choose to cover issues drugs six times since May 2010. related to human trafficking as part of their wider Public Expenditure school curriculum or as part of personal, social, health and economic (PSHE) education. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government believes that teachers are best placed Education what assessment he has made of the to understand the needs of their pupils and do not need equality impact of his Department’s spending additional central prescription in this area. reductions since 2010; whether this assessment has 235W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 236W been used to inform his planning ahead of the 2013 Pupils: Disadvantaged Comprehensive Spending Review and with what result; what plans he has to publish the equality impact assessments undertaken by his Department as a result Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for of the upcoming Comprehensive Spending Review; Education what recent assessment he has made of the and if he will make a statement. [161176] correlation between students who are entitled to free school meals and those who go on to (a) further and Mr Laws: Assessment of equalities impact forms part higher education and (b) apprenticeships. [161620] of all decision making, including on the implementation of spending reductions from 2010. Her Majesty’s Treasury will publish a document alongside the outcome of the Mr Laws: The following table provides estimates of current spending round summarising the overall equalities the proportion of 16- and 17-year-olds participating in analysis. When decisions are made on the implementation (a) education and training, and (b) apprenticeships; of spending reductions more detailed analysis will be and the proportion of young people participating in carried out and considered to inform final decisions on higher education by the age of 19. In the table, young how reductions will be made. Where appropriate, these people are categorised according to whether they were will be published oh the Department’s website. in receipt of free school meals (FSM) at the age of 15.

Participation in education and training, apprenticeships, and higher education by young people who were eligible for free school meals at age 15 Percentage Academic age 16 Academic age 17 Academic age 19 of which FSM status at age 15 Education/training apprenticeship Education/training of which apprenticeship Higher education

Non-FSM 96 6 90 9 36 FSM 93 5 85 8 18 Total 95 6 89 9 34

The figures for education and training and Mr Laws: The pupil premium, which this year is apprenticeships refer to participation during the academic £1.875 billion of additional funding nationally, is given year 2011/12, and are estimated using the Department to schools to help close the attainment gap between for Education’s YoungPerson’s Matched Administrative pupil premium eligible pupils and their peers. In addition, Dataset (YPMAD). Figures for participation in higher the year 7 literacy and numeracy catch-up premium education refer to participation during the 2009/10 academic provides secondary schools with £500 for each pupil year and are published by BIS in the ‘Widening Participation who has not attained the expected level in reading in Higher Education’ publication (August 2012). Academic and/or maths by the end of primary school. age is defined as age at the start of the academic year, Head teachers have the freedom to decide how to use 31 August. Estimates relate only to young people whose the additional funding they receive as they are best FSM status at age 15 was known. placed to know the needs of their pupils. A range of measures, including Ofsted inspections, make schools Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for accountable for the decisions they make and the progress Education what recent discussions he has had with (a) of their students. Ofsted will consider, as part of the Ofsted and (b) other organisations on possible links inspections, whether schools are offering appropriate between entitlement to free school meals and low support to all pupils, including those who are falling attainment levels; and what steps he is taking to below expected attainment levels. address such factors. [161677] Ofsted is not currently required to routinely inspect schools that were judged outstanding at their most Mr Laws: Ministers meet Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector recent inspection. However, in a speech on 20 June Her regularly to discuss a range of matters including the Majesty’s Chief Inspector made clear that schools performance of pupils entitled to free school meals previously judged outstanding that are not doing well (FSM). The Government welcomes the recent Ofsted by their poorest children will be re-inspected by Ofsted. report, “Unseen Children: access and achievement 20 years on”, as a significant contribution to this important issue. Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how the pupil premium will be used to Taking into account the link between FSM eligibility improve the education of children attending schools and low attainment, the Government’s allocation rated by Ofsted as outstanding. [161679] methodology for the pupil premium is based principally on numbers of pupils eligible for FSM. The pupil premium channels additional funding to schools of Mr Laws: The Government is determined that every £900 per eligible pupil in 2013-14 and is set to rise to a school should use the pupil premium to close attainment total of £2.5 billion nationally in 2014-15. gaps, regardless of either the proportion of disadvantaged pupils on roll, the size of its mainstream budget, its Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for geographical location, or its overall performance. Education what steps he takes to ensure that children It is for head teachers and school leaders to decide who are falling below expected attainment levels in which interventions to fund with the pupil premium: schools otherwise rated by Ofsted as outstanding are they have the necessary professionalism and in-depth receiving appropriate support. [161678] knowledge of their own schools and the characteristics 237W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 238W and needs of their disadvantaged pupils. They will be Key stage 2 attainment of pupils by the degree of held accountable for the decisions they make and the rurality of pupil residence is available in table A2 of the impact they have. This applies as much to those schools ‘National curriculum assessments at key stage 2 in rated by Ofsted as “outstanding” as to other schools. England: academic year 2011 to 2012’ SFR3. Ofsted is not currently required to routinely inspect Attainment of pupils at key stage 4 by the degree of schools that were “outstanding” at their most recent rurality of pupil residence is available in table A2 of the inspection. However, in a speech on 20 June Her Majesty’s ‘GCSE and equivalent attainment by pupil characteristics Chief Inspector made clear that schools previously in England: 2011 to 2012’ SFR4. judged outstanding, that are not doing well by their Figures for coastal towns are not published. Officials poorest children, will be re-inspected by Ofsted. have estimated that the time it would take to identify pupils resident in coastal towns, evaluate their attainment Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for and quality assure results would incur disproportionate Education what discussions he has had with (a) Ofsted cost. and (b) other organisations on differences in Research on seaside towns published in 2008 by the attainment levels between children in cities and Department for Communities and Local Government5 children in rural communities. [161680] found that, in 2006, performance in seaside towns was marginally below the national average. However, none Mr Laws: Ministers meet Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of the seaside towns had an especially low share achieving regularly to discuss a range of matters including the 5 GCSEs A*-C, compared to some inner urban areas. differences in attainment levels regionally.The Government 1 Available at: welcomed the focus on regional differences in the quality https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eyfsp- of education in Ofsted’s annual report last year and attainment-by-pupil-characteristics-in-england-academic- subsequently, the targeted monitoring and support by year-2011-to-2012 Ofsted of schools that require improvement, which Table A2 can be found within the ‘Pupil residency tables: SFR30/2012’ focuses on raising standards more quickly in schools link. that are coasting and not meeting the needs of all 2 Available at: pupils. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/phonics- screening-check-and-national-curriculum-assessments-at-key- The recent Ofsted report, “Unseen Children: access stage-1-in-england-2012 and achievement 20 years on”, is also a significant Table A2 can be found within the ‘KS1—local authority and contribution to this important area. The report highlights pupil residency based tables: SFR21/2012’ link. recent improvements by schools in meeting the needs of 3 Available at: disadvantaged children as well as setting out some of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national- the remaining challenges. curriculum-assessments-at-key-stage-2-in-england-academic- Schools are accountable for the decisions they make, year-2011-to-2012 and the progress of their students, through a range of Table A2 can be found within the ‘Pupil residency and school measures including their Ofsted inspection. Ofsted will location based tables: SFR33/2012’ link. Key Stage 2 attainment consider, as part of the inspection, whether schools are of pupils by the degree of rurality of school location is also available, in table B1 of this publication, which can be found from offering appropriate support to all pupils, including the same link as Table A2. those who are falling below expected attainment levels. 4 Available at: Ofsted is not currently required routinely to inspect https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gcse-and- schools that were ‘outstanding’ at their most recent equivalent-attainment-by-pupil-characteristics-in-england inspection. However, in a speech on 20 June Her Majesty’s Table A2 can be found within the ‘Pupil residency and school Chief Inspector made clear that schools previously location based tables: SFR04/2013’ link. Key stage 4 attainment judged outstanding, that are not doing well by their of pupils by the degree of rurality of school location is also poorest children, will be re-inspected by Ofsted. available in table B1 of this publication, which can be found from the same link as Table A2. 5 Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Available at: Education what recent assessment his Department has https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ made of the relative attainment levels of students in attachment_data/file/7624/englishseasidetowns.pdf inner city schools and those in schools in rural areas Runaway Children and coastal towns. [161681] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: Information on pupil attainment at each Education if he will require local authorities to key stage by the degree of rurality of pupil residence is conduct return interviews with all children who run published each year in the Department’s statistical first away or go missing from home or care, within 72 hours releases (SFR). of a missing incident. [161689] Early years foundation stage profile (EYFSP) attainment Mr Timpson: The Department’s statutory guidance of pupils by the degree of rurality of pupil residence is ‘Children who run away or go missing from home or available in table A2 of the ’EYFSP attainment by pupil care’1 recommends that local authorities offer young characteristics in England: academic year 2011 to 2012 1 people a return interview within 72 hours of them being SFR . located. Interviews should be held to understand and Attainment of pupils at key stage 1 by the degree of address the reasons why the child went missing and to rurality of pupil residence is available in table A2 of the minimise the risk of them going missing again. ‘Phonics screening check and national curriculum 1 http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/statutory/g00222839/ assessments at key stage 1 in England: 2012’ SFR2. children-who-run-away-and-go-missing-from-home-or-care 239W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 240W

We have just launched a consultation on the guidance. responsible left their employment in (A) 2010-11, (B) Details are available at: 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13; and if he will make a https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/ statement. [160904] index.cfm?action=consultationDetails&consultationId=1917 &external=no&menu=1 Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education will, Schools: Sports in line with other employers’ practice, consider use of compromise agreements to settle small numbers of cases of dispute with members of staff, based on a risk Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment and a value for money case. Education how he plans to increase the number of children taking part in competitive sport at school. The Department also considers using confidentiality clauses in its compromise agreements, but will always [161440] assess whether such clauses are appropriate and necessary. Mr Timpson: PE is, and will remain, compulsory at Such clauses do not prevent any protected disclosure of all four key stages of the national curriculum and the issues under whistleblowing legislation. draft programmes of study released for consultation in Information for the Department is set out in the February 2013 place a far greater emphasis on competitive following table. sport. We are supporting the cross-Government School Games programme and applaud the positive impact it 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 has had in encouraging more young people to participate Number of compromise agreements Less 0 Less than in sport. where staff have left their employment than 5 5 During the academic years 2011/12 and 2012/13 we Number of compromise agreements Less 0 Less than containing a confidentiality clause than 5 5 provided £65 million of funding for a PE Teacher where staff have left their employment. Release scheme to enable the release of a PE teacher Judicial mediation where staff have left Less 00 from every secondary school for one day a week to their employment than 5 encourage take-up of competitive sport in local primary schools as well as in their own school. Totals of less than five are withheld on grounds of In March 2013, the Prime Minister announced additional confidentiality. ring-fenced funding of £150 million per annum for The Department does not hold this information for academic years 2013/14 and 2014/15 to support the its non-departmental public bodies. provision of PE and sport in primary schools. We UK Council for Child Internet Safety expect this will also encourage greater pupil participation in competitive sport, including the School Games. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Termination of Employment Education if he will list (a) the members of the Executive Board of the UK Council on Child Internet Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Safety since May 2010 and (b) the dates of each board Education on how many occasions (a) a compromise meeting each such member has attended. [161561] agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause and (c) judicial mediation was used when an employee of (i) his Mr Timpson: The information has been provided in Department and (ii) the public bodies for which he is the following table.

UKCCIS executive board membership Board members Duration of membership Organisation Board meetings attended

John Carr 2008—present CHIS 2010: July and November; 2011: January, March May, July, September, November, December; 2012: April, July, December; 2013: February and May Peter Robbins 2008—July 2011 IWF 2010: July, September, November; 2011: January, March, May, July Michael Rawlinson March 2009—May 2011 ELSPA 2010: July and September, 2011: January and March Wes Cuell March 2009—March 2011 NSPCC 2010: July, September, November; 2011: January Mike Galvin 2008—April 2012 BT 2010: July, September, November; 2011: January, March, May, July, September, November, December; 2012: April Dr Mike Short 2008—May 2013 02 2010: July, September, November; 2011: January, March, July, September, November, December; 2012; July, December; 2013: February Phil Raines 2008—present Scottish Government 2010: July and September; 2011: January, July and September; 2012: July; 2013: February Chris Burdett 2008—July 2012 Welsh Assembly Government 2010: July, September, November; 2011: May November; 2012: April Stewart Purvis 2008—September 2010 Ofcom 2010: July Prof Sonia Livingstone 2008—present LSE 2010: July; 2011: January 241W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 242W

UKCCIS executive board membership Board members Duration of membership Organisation Board meetings attended

Joe Godwin 2008—May 2013 BBC 2010: July; 2011: January, September and November; 2012: July and December; 2013: February Mary MacLeod 2008—February 2012 Family Policy Advisor 2010; July, September, November; 2011: January, March, May, July, November Jim Gamble March 2009—March 2011 CEOP None Matthew Bishop March 2009—November 2010 Microsoft None Andy Roberts November 2010—March 2011 Director of Children’s Services (DCS) 2010: November; 2011: January Chris Woolard September 2010—November 2012 Ofcom (replaced Ofcom) 2010: September; 2011 January, March, May, July, September, November; 2012: July Fergal Bradley September 2010—March 2011 Northern Ireland Assembly None (additional member) Richard Allan November 2010—March 2012 Facebook (additional member) 2010: November; 2011: January, November, December Elizabeth Kanter November 2010—present RIM Blackberry (additional member) 2010: November; 2011: January, March, May, July, September, November; 2012: April, July, December; 2013: February and May Matt Lambert November 2010—December 2011 Microsoft (replaced Microsoft) 2011: March, May, July, September, November John Grounds March 2011—November 2012. NSPCC (replaced NSPCC) 2011: March, May, July, September, November, December; 2012: April and July Peter Davies March 2011—present CEOP (replaced CEOP) 2011; May and July; 2012: July, and December; 2013: February and May Andy Barker July 2011—February 2012 UKIE (replaced UKIE, formerly 2011: July, September, November, December ELSPA) Peter Lewis July 2011—November 2011 Director of Children’s Services None (replaced DCS) Susie Hargreaves September 2011—present IWF (replaced IWF) 2011: September; 2012: July, and December; 2013: February and May Scott Dodds February 2012—present Microsoft (replaced Microsoft) 2012: December; 2013: February Simon Milner April 2012—present Facebook (replaced Facebook) 2012: April, July, December; 2013: February, May Jo Twist April 2012—present UKIE (replaced UKIE) 2012: April, July, December; 2013: May Will Gardner April 2012—present Safer Internet Centre (additional 2011: September and November; 2012: April, member) July, December; 2013: February and May David Happy April 2012—present Samsung (additional member) 2012: April, July. December, 2013: February and May Simon Hampton April 2012—October 2012 Google (additional member) 2012: April and July Vicki Shotbolt July 2012—present The Parentzone (additional member) 2012: July and December; 2013: February, May Sue Warrington July 2012—May2013 Headteacher (replaced DCS 2012: July; 2013: February representative) Andrew Uden July 2012—present Tesco (additional member) 2012: July and December; 2013: February and May Dido Harding July 2012—present TalkTalk (additional member) 2012: July and December; 2013: February and May Julian Ashworth December 2012—present BT (replaced Google) 2012: December; 2013: February and May Peter Liver December 2012—present NSPCC (replaced NSPCC) 2012: December; 2013: February and May Claudio Pollack December 2012—present Ofcom (replaced Ofcom) 2012: December; 2013: February and May Lindsay Harvey December 2012—present Welsh Assembly Government 2012: December David Cooke May 2013—present BBFC (replaced 02) 2013: May Dave Miles May 2013—present FOSI (replaced BCC) 2013: May

WORK AND PENSIONS planning activities. While we do not keep central records of local plans, the Department’s national staff network Anti-Slavery Day group invite staff to share information about local events to mark such occasions and this material is Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work published on the Department’s internal website. This and Pensions what plans (a) he and (b) Ministers in information would include details about activity in his Department have to mark Anti-Slavery Day on other Government Departments, local authorities and 18 October 2013; and if he will take steps to ensure that non-governmental organisations. officials in his Department are offered an opportunity to be involved in various events organised by (i) his Billing Department, (ii) local authorities and (iii) non- governmental organisations. [161123] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment his Department has Mr Hoban: The Department for Work and Pensions made of the potential financial benefits that could be has no plans to mark Anti-Slavery Day 2013 nationally, achieved by paying suppliers early in return for rebates. but this does not prevent staff in our local office network [160934] 243W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 244W

Mr Hoban: The Department has committed to prompt Mr Hoban: Jobcentres and Work programme providers payment of invoices to suppliers. We have committed to distribute claim forms to employers when an eligible adhere to a ‘Prompt Payment Code’ whereby invoices young person starts in an eligible job and it is clear the are paid on receipt, but no later than 30-days of receipt. wage incentive influenced the decision to hire. When This enables the Department to secure excellent commercial employers claim the funding they must agree to the deals with its suppliers resulting in the Department terms and conditions of the scheme which stipulate achieving significant savings. We have therefore not they would not have been in a position to hire the young conducted a separate assessment. person without the incentive.

Cattle: Accidents Employment: Disability Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment his Department has and Pensions how many people have been killed by made of the numbers of disabled people likely to cattle in each of the last 30 years. [161415] return to work as a consequence to changes to disability benefits and the Work Programme. [161255] Mr Hoban: The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) holds details of fatal injuries to workers and members Mr Hoban: The Department has not made assessments of the public on farms reported to it under the Reporting about the number of disabled people likely to return to of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences work as a consequence of the Work programme. Personal Regulations 1995 (as amended) (RIDDOR). independence payment began to replace disability living Details of the number of deaths involving workers allowance for people aged 16 to 64 from 8 April 2013. and members of the public in agriculture due to cattle No assessment has been made on the numbers of people in each of the years from 1996-97 to 2010-11 are set out likely to return to work as a result of the introduction of in the following table. personal independence payment. The data for the period before 1996-97 are not readily Employment: Graduates available and as a result of changes to the accident reporting systems introduced to RIDDOR comparable Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work data cannot be provided from 2011-12 onwards. and Pensions what recent steps his Department has RIDDOR reported fatal injuries due to cattle in agriculture for the years taken to help graduates into work. [160843] 1996-97 to 2010-11 Self- Member of Mr Hoban: Jobcentre Plus is geared-up to offer advice Employee employed the public Total to everyone who is looking for work—irrespective of 1996-97 0 3 0 3 background, profession or occupation. Through Jobcentre 1997-98 0 6 1 7 Plus, individuals can get advice on finding a job; help 1998-99 2 2 2 6 with retraining or skills advice, CV and job applications 1999-2000 1 3 2 6 and access to the thousands of new vacancies we record 2000-01 0 1 0 1 every day. They can also access a range of tailored 2001-02 2 1 1 4 opportunities to improve their likelihood of entering or 2002-03 0 2 0 2 re-entering the labour market, including demand-led 2003-04 0 1 1 2 training for higher skilled jobs in specific sectors. 2004-05 0 3 0 3 Jobcentre Plus provides numerous leads and good 2005-06 0 2 2 4 practice ideas to help people direct their job search in 2006-07 3 6 2 11 the most effective manner and has built up a substantial 2007-08 0 3 0 3 network of links with external training providers and 2008-09 0 1 2 3 other organisations such as universities and colleges. 2009-10 0 3 2 5 We have improved online signposting for graduates, 2010-11 1 4 2 7 managers and professionals looking to use our services Total 9 41 17 67 to other sources of specialist help. The Work programme will also provide personalised Employment Schemes: Young People support for those at risk of becoming long-term unemployed.

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Food Banks and Pensions when he plans to publish figures for the number of wage incentive payments being made to Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for employers through the Youth Contract. [161495] Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 11 June 2013, Official Report, column 304W, on food banks, if Mr Hoban: The first set of figures for the number of he will take steps to record all referrals made by wage incentive payments being made to employers through Government agencies for people to receive emergency the Youth Contract will be published on 22 July 2013. food aid or visit food banks. [161472]

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Hoban: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I and Pensions what assessment he has made of the gave to the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn extent to which Youth Contract wage incentive (Glenda Jackson) on 6 June 2013, Official Report, column payments are made to employers who would not have 1266W, and on 12 June 2013, Official Report, column otherwise taken on a young employee. [161498] 373W. 245W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 246W

Future Jobs Fund: Coastal Areas being closely monitored by the Department for Work and Pensions. It should be noted that health professionals Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work are not undertaking a diagnostic assessment, but one and Pensions how many jobs were created in each of which will look at the impact of conditions and impairments the principal seaside towns under the Future Jobs on individuals’ everyday lives. Fund in each year of that Fund’s existence. [161396]

Mr Hoban: The Department does not hold information Public Expenditure on the number of jobs created in each of the principal seaside towns under the Future Jobs Fund in each year Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for of that fund’s existence. Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of However, the number of starts on a FJF placement the equality impact of his Department’s spending by region is available on: reductions since 2010; whether this assessment has https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ been used to inform his planning ahead of the 2013 attachment_data/file/195961/ypg_oct2011.pdf.pdf Comprehensive Spending Review and with what result; what plans he has to publish the equality impact Housing Benefit assessments undertaken by his Department as a result of the upcoming Comprehensive Spending Review; Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for and if he will make a statement. [161185] Work and Pensions what guidance he has given to local authorities on the granting of discretionary housing Mr Hoban: DWP considers equality issues in exercising benefit to households which include a resident who has its functions, including in setting priorities within its had an organ transplant; and if he will make a budget, in order to comply with equality legislation and statement. [161668] to ensure it understands how its activities will affect specific groups in society. Steve Webb: The Discretionary Housing Payment Guidance does not specifically refer to people with The Department’s overall spending round submission organ transplants, as this may not always be a relevant was informed by its own equality assessments and by factor when considering an award. the SR equalities assessment commissioned by HMT. Throughout the guidance local authorities are The Department has produced and published equality advised that when considering whether or not to impact assessments to accompany all major policy reforms make an award, they should have regard to the since 2010. These are updated in light of policy changes claimant’s or their families’ individual circumstances. or updates to economic assumptions, as required. This includes any extra needs they may have due to DWP has provided HM Treasury with an equalities medical problems. assessment of its main areas of expenditure, as well as Jobcentre Plus some additional areas of spending that have particular equalities impacts, both before and during the spending round process. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many complaints he has The Department publishes an annual report inline received relating to the performance of Jobcentre Plus with its public sector equality duty, to demonstrate its offices (a) in Ashfield constituency, (b) in compliance with the duty.The report provides information Nottinghamshire and (c) nationally in each year since on how DWP policies and practices, as well as its own workforce, perform in relation to the nine protected 2008. [160956] groups under the Equality Act 2010. The next report Mr Hoban: DWP do keep records which show the will be published on the 12 of July. overall number of complaints it receives and whether This Government has been clear that producing formal the complaints are about, for example, their decisions, equality impact assessment documents are not required Government policy, benefit payments. DWP’s complaint in order to ensure compliance with the legal responsibility categories do not cover the specific performance of its to consider equality impacts. The outcome of the Spending offices and therefore we are unable to provide the figures Round will be published on 26 June 2013. requested.

Personal Independence Payment Social Security Benefits Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what training Personal Sir Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Independence Payment assessors receive on multiple Work and Pensions how many benefit claims were and complex conditions. [161499] submitted for each benefit in each of the last 12 months for which figures are available; how many Esther McVey: The Department requires the health claimants applied for such benefits; and what estimate professionals carrying out personal independence payment he has made of the number of claimants who applied assessments to have a broad training in disability analysis, for more than one benefit in that period. [160939] as well as training in specific conditions, including multiple and complex conditions. Both organisations Mr Hoban: The number of benefit claims that were providing the assessment have to conform to a rigorous received for each benefit in each of the last 12 months set of standards regarding staff recruitment, which are are shown in the following table: 247W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 248W

Table (a): Benefit claims received Number AA CA DLA ESA IS JSA PC SP

2012 June 23,040 19,152 33,379 57,107 28,180 243,101 13,352 50,937 July 26,383 21,685 37,113 68,521 32,026 312,335 14,846 53,899 August 25,554 19,120 24,091 65,262 31,200 288,360 16,453 61,919 September 22,375 20,154 31,472 64,018 30,544 295,689 14,861 54,044 October 29,678 24,350 41,822 72,220 35,208 320,215 18,168 63,355 November 25,834 21,968 36,300 76,691 32,944 288,057 15,728 52,330 December 18,810 15,905 28,079 56,847 23,784 215,683 10,829 37,031

2013 January 24,069 22,300 33,252 74,452 28,994 330,912 19,669 78,394 February 23,725 20,178 35,338 69,832 28,472 272,140 15,594 54,767 March 26,588 18,688 38,017 64,562 26,762 232,818 15,280 55,597 April 25,110 21,942 35,509 66,754 28,141 236,190 13,571 51,242 May 22,911 20,682 29,775 69,197 28,816 226,510 15,770 62,211

We are unable to provide an estimate of the number Social Security Benefits: Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs of claimants who applied for such benefits or the number of claimants who applied for more than one benefit as Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State our management information systems do not report for Work and Pensions how many people who claim this level of detail and to do so would be at disproportionate (a) employment and support allowance, (b) disability cost. living allowance and (c) incapacity benefit have Source: alcoholism or drug abuse as their main disabling Management Information System Programme (MISP). MISP is a condition. [161489] departmental performance management, data capture and reporting tool. This type of internal management information does not Mr Hoban: The information requested is shown in form part of the official statistics outputs that are released by the the following table. Department in accordance with the UK Statistics Authority’s Code of Practice. Incapacity benefit/severe disablement allowance (IB/SDA), employment support allowance (ESA) and disability living allowance (DLA) recipients with Department for Work and Pensions—RDA60201 report—Disability alcoholism and/or drug abuse recorded as the main disabling condition—Great Living Allowance Management Information Statistics. Britain, November 2012 Alcoholism Drug abuse Alcoholism and drug abuse Sir Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure IB/SDA 17,980 14,290 — that claimant data can be shared when two or more ESA 36,500 23,030 — separate benefit claims are made by the same claimant. DLA — — 21,620 Notes: [160990] 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10.″—″ denotes not applicable. 2. To qualify for incapacity benefit claimants have to undertake a medical assessment of incapacity for work called a personal capability assessment. Mr Hoban: The Department has robust checks in Under the employment support allowance regime, new claimants have to place to protect benefit systems against fraud. undergo the work capability assessment. From April 2011 incapacity benefit recipients began also to undertake this assessment. The medical condition When a benefit claim is made, our Department’s IT recorded on the claim form does not itself confer entitlement to incapacity benefit or employment support allowance. So, for example, a decision on systems can identify duplicate claims where there is entitlement for a customer claiming IB or ESA on the basis of drug abuse would shared information such as national insurance number, be based on their ability to carry out the range of activities assessed by the address or date of birth. We also data match with personal/work capability assessment; or on the effects of any associated mental health problems. HMRC and local authorities to ensure information is 3. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance (ESA) consistent. from October 2008. 4. Medical condition is based on evidence provided at the start of the claim, this Claimants to benefit need to prove their identity at a in itself does not confer entitlement to IB/SDA or ESA and may not represent a number of intervention points, including at the start of claimants most recent medical condition. Please also note that where someone has more than one diagnosis or disabling condition only the predominant one is their claim to benefit and during any ongoing contact currently recorded. with the Department. This process includes document 5. DLA case loads give the number of people in receipt to DLA and so excludes examination checks to ensure the authenticity of any people where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. documentary evidence provided in support of an 6. A diagnosed medical condition does not mean that someone is automatically application; and corroborative checks with third parties, entitled to DLA. Entitlement is dependent on an assessment of how much help including other Government Departments, to verify someone needs with personal care and/or mobility because of their disability. For example, a customer would not be awarded DLA on the basis of a diagnosis information supplied. of drug/alcohol abuse the decision is based upon the care/supervision and difficulty getting around as a result of the substance dependency and any The Department is developing an Integrated Risk associated physical or psychological complications. These statistics are only and Intelligence Service (IRIS), which will be a central collected for administrative purposes. hub of data and intelligence to support counter-fraud 7. For DLA it is not possible to break down drug abuse or alcoholism into separate categories. activity, and also to reduce error. Stage 1 IRIS went live Source: along with the Universal Credit Pathfinder on 29 April. DWP Information Directorate 100% WPLS 249W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 250W

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Fraud against the benefits system is regarded as gross for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the likely misconduct under the Department’s disciplinary policy. number of (a) personal independence payment and The normal penalty for gross misconduct is dismissal. (b) employment and support allowance claimants in The Department’s computer system records dismissals 2017 with alcoholism or drug abuse as their main due to gross misconduct but does not sub-categorize disabling condition. [161490] misconduct into convictions for benefit fraud; consequently the information requested is not available. Mr Hoban: We do not forecast numbers of claimants by medical condition. Termination of Employment

Social Security Benefits: Drugs Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on how many occasions (a) a Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State compromise agreement, (b) a confidentiality clause for Work and Pensions (1) how many people claiming and (c) judicial mediation was used when an employee (a) jobseeker’s allowance and (b) income support are of (i) his Department and (ii) the public bodies for problem drug users; [161487] which he is responsible left their employment in (A) (2) if he will estimate expenditure on benefit 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13; and if he will claimants who are problem drug users. [161488] make a statement. [160917]

Mr Hoban: The information concerning the number Mr Hoban: The information in respect of the Department of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance or income is not available because it is not collated centrally and support who are problem drug users is not readily could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Such available and can be provided only at disproportionate information that is available is as follows: cost. DWP departmental public bodies We cannot therefore provide complete estimates of 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 expenditure for benefit claimants who are problem drug Compromise 53 79 52 users for these benefits. In addition disability living Agreements1 allowance is only available jointly for alcoholism and Judicial 111 drug abuse categories. The information we have is included mediation in the following table: 1 All compromise agreements included a confidentiality clause. There were no other confidentiality clauses. £ million Expenditure 2011-12 Universal Credit Drug users All Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Incapacity benefit and severe 38.1 5,820.7 disablement allowance and Pensions when he plans to publish the caseload Employment support 51.6 3,554.1 figures for the universal credit pathfinder. [161496] allowance Disability living allowance and 7.8 17,905.2 Mr Hoban: I refer the right hon. Member to the reply attendance allowance I provided him with on 21 May 2013, Official Report, 97.4 27,279.9 column 675W, and 6 June 2013, Official Report, column Notes: 1253W. 1. Severe disablement allowance is included alongside incapacity benefit. 2. Expenditure figures are rounded to the nearest £100,000. The Department is working to guidelines set by the 3. Expenditure below £50,000 is shown as #. 4. Incapacity benefit began to be replaced by employment support allowance UK Statistics Authority to ensure we are able to publish (ESA) from October 2008. employment and support allowance also replaced statistics that meet high quality standards at the earliest income support for those in receipt of incapacity benefit or incapacity opportunity. We intend to publish Official Statistics on national insurance credits. Information on income support spending is not included in this analysis. pathfinder areas in autumn 2013. 5. Medical condition is based on evidence provided at the start of the claim. This in itself does not confer entitlement to the benefit and may not represent Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for a claimant’s most recent medical condition. Please also note that where someone has more than one diagnosis or disabling condition, only the Work and Pensions what written information claimants predominant one is currently recorded. will receive on the breakdown of their universal credit 6. May not add due to rounding. entitlements; how frequently such information will be provided; and if he will make a statement. [161655] Social Security Benefits: Fraud Mr Hoban: Claimants will receive a universal credit Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work decision letter at the point their claim has been determined and Pensions how many people employed in (a) his which will explain their single new universal credit Department and (b) the agencies for which he is payment, when it will be paid each month and how it responsible have been convicted of benefit fraud. has been calculated. [161083] The breakdown will include which elements they are Mr Hoban: The Department for Work and Pensions eligible for, the amounts and how any earnings, income treats fraud of the benefits system extremely seriously or other deductions have affected their payment. and does not tolerate any fraud by employees. We have Further decision letters will be issued following any rigorous processes for preventing and detecting fraud changes in claimant’s circumstances that affect the elements by employees within the Department. or amount they receive. 251W Written Answers25 JUNE 2013 Written Answers 252W

Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Hoban: Increasing the level of universal credit and Pensions what estimate he has made of the amount work allowances for all claimants by (a) 10% would that will be spent on universal credit in (a) this year cost around £900 million per year in steady state in and (b) each of the next four financial years. [161656] 2014-15 prices; by (b) 20% would cost around £1,850 million per year in steady state in 2014-15 prices; by (c) Mr Hoban: I refer the right hon. Member to the 30% would cost around £2,750 million per year in answer I gave him on 3 June 2013, Official Report, steady state in 2014-15 prices. column 1053W,on 15 May 2013, Official Report, column The figures above do not take account of the potential 329W and on 13 June 2013, Official Report, column dynamic effects from these changes. 425W. Universal Credit: Lancashire Of the £2 billion budget, spend in 2011-12 was 5%, and in 2012-13 16%. Plans continue to be developed to support the gradual roll-out from autumn 2013 within Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work budget. and Pensions how many families in (a) Blackburn with Darwen and (b) Rossendale local authority area Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for receive universal credit. [160841] Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of introducing a universal credit second Mr Hoban: Blackburn with Darwen and Rossendale earner disregard at (a) 30 per cent and (b) 50 per cent local authority areas are not within the universal credit pathfinder area therefore residents are unable to claim of the first earner disregard. [161662] universal credit at this time. Mr Hoban: Introducing a universal credit second Work Programme earner work allowance at (a) 30% of the first earner work allowance would cost around £750 million per Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work year in steady state in 2014-15 prices; at (b) 50% of the and Pensions how many Work programme providers first earner work allowance would cost around £1,300 have been put on special measures as a result of poor million per year in steady state in 2014-15 prices. performance in each of the last two years. [161497] The figures above do not take account of the potential dynamic effects from these changes. Mr Hoban: Seven formal contract letters requiring Work programme providers to improve performance Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for were issued in November 2012 to the five providers Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the responsible for delivering those contracts. public purse of increasing the level of universal credit To tie in with the release of Work programme statistics earnings disregard by (a) 10 per cent, (b) 20 per cent on 27 June 2013 I will inform the House of further steps and (c) 30 per cent. [161663] we are taking to drive up provider performance.

3MC Ministerial Corrections25 JUNE 2013 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

Mr Simon Burns: Contracted subsidy for the interim Ministerial Corrections franchise agreement is c.£1.7 million. A profit share mechanism in place, which will capture any outperformance Tuesday 25 June 2013 in revenue, thereby lowering subsidy requirement. Subsidy and premium payments are published regularly on the Office of Rail Regulation website.

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for TRANSPORT Transport what the total value is of the contract extension to September 2014 agreed between his Department and London, Tilbury and Southend Railway Line c2c Rail Ltd for rail passenger services on the Essex Thameside line. [157601] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for [Official Report, 5 June 2013, Vol. 563, c. 1198W.] Transport what the estimated level of (a) public Letter of correction from Simon Burns: (b) (c) subsidy, premium payments and revenue support An error has been identified in the written answer will be during the contract extension to September 2014 given to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy agreed between his Department and c2c Rail Ltd for rail Corbyn) on 5 June 2013. passenger services on the Essex Thameside line. [157599] The full answer given was as follows: [Official Report, 3 June 2013, Vol. 563, c. 975W.] Letter of correction from Simon Burns: Mr Simon Burns: Contracted subsidy for the An error has been identified in the written answer interim franchise agreement is c.£2.4 million. A profit given to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy share mechanism is in place, which will capture any Corbyn) on 3 June 2013. outperformance in revenue, thereby lowering subsidy requirement. Subsidy and premium payments are published The full answer given was as follows: regularly on the Office of Rail Regulation website. Mr Simon Burns: Contracted subsidy for the interim The correct answer should have been: franchise agreement is c.£2.4 million. A profit share Mr Simon Burns: Contracted subsidy for the mechanism in place, which will capture any outperformance interim franchise agreement is c.£1.7 million. A profit in revenue, thereby lowering subsidy requirement. Subsidy share mechanism is in place, which will capture any and premium payments are published regularly on the outperformance in revenue, thereby lowering subsidy Office of Rail Regulation website. requirement. Subsidy and premium payments are published The correct answer should have been: regularly on the Office of Rail Regulation website.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 25 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 143 TREASURY—continued Average Earnings ...... 155 Job Creation...... 152 Bank Lending ...... 143 Living Costs (Personal Allowance)...... 149 Child Benefit (Higher Earners) ...... 156 Pensions Triple Lock...... 146 Community Budgets ...... 156 Public Sector Debt ...... 153 Housing Market (Budget 2013)...... 154 Small Businesses ...... 146 Infrastructure Investment...... 150 Topical Questions ...... 157 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 25 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 5WS AFFAIRS...... 3WS Civil Aviation Authority (Air Navigation EU Environment Council ...... 3WS Guidance) ...... 5WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 5WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 6WS Drugs Update ...... 5WS Pension Protection Fund (Compensation Cap)...... 6WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 25 June 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 154W DEFENCE...... 151W Antibiotics ...... 154W Armed Forces: Uniforms ...... 151W Apprentices: Kingston Upon Hull ...... 154W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 152W Apprentices: West Midlands ...... 155W Army: Redundancy...... 152W Flood Control...... 155W British Forces Broadcasting Service ...... 153W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 156W Reserve Forces ...... 153W Higher Education: Barnsley ...... 156W Postgraduate Education ...... 157W EDUCATION...... 228W Science: Finance...... 158W Academies: Romford...... 228W Science: Wales...... 158W Apprentices...... 229W Students: Loans ...... 158W Billing ...... 229W Children: Disability...... 229W Children: Internet ...... 230W CABINET OFFICE...... 224W Children: Protection...... 230W Big Society Network ...... 224W Extended Schools...... 232W Construction: Barnsley ...... 224W Free School Meals: Staffordshire ...... 233W Manufacturing Industries: Barnsley...... 225W Human Trafficking: Curriculum ...... 233W Small Businesses: Staffordshire ...... 226W Misuse of Drugs Ministerial Group...... 234W Teenage Pregnancy: Cannock Chase...... 225W Public Expenditure...... 234W Termination of Employment...... 227W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 236W Young People ...... 227W Runaway Children...... 238W Schools: Sports ...... 239W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 191W Termination of Employment...... 239W Billing ...... 191W UK Council for Child Internet Safety...... 240W Community Land Trusts...... 192W Housing: Energy ...... 193W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 217W Termination of Employment...... 193W Arctic ...... 217W Tesco: Margate...... 194W Electricity: Prices ...... 217W Energy...... 217W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 218W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 222W Energy: Conservation...... 218W Apprentices...... 222W Energy: Housing ...... 219W Betting Shops...... 222W Fuel Poverty...... 219W Disciplinary Proceedings...... 223W Green Deal Scheme...... 220W Internet ...... 223W Heating ...... 220W Leicester...... 223W Hydrofluorocarbons ...... 221W Sports ...... 223W Insulation: Cannock Chase ...... 221W Sports: Schools ...... 224W Insulation: Housing ...... 222W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 143W AFFAIRS...... 149W Written Questions ...... 143W Arable Farming...... 149W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 150W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 228W Hill Farming ...... 151W Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 228W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 194W JUSTICE...... 144W Bangladesh...... 194W Prisoners: Older People...... 144W Conditions of Employment...... 195W Social Security Benefits: Appeals ...... 144W Egypt ...... 195W Travel ...... 145W Occupied Territories...... 196W Unpaid Fines: Greater London...... 146W Saudi Arabia...... 196W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 148W Turkey...... 196W SCOTLAND...... 143W Termination of Employment ...... 143W HEALTH...... 198W Ambulance Services ...... 198W TRANSPORT ...... 159W Ambulance Services: Northamptonshire...... 199W Bridges: River Thames...... 159W Billing ...... 199W Invalid Vehicles ...... 159W Cancer ...... 199W Public Expenditure...... 160W Cataracts...... 200W Public Transport: Tickets ...... 160W Chiropody...... 200W Railways: Electrification ...... 161W Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 201W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 161W Electronic Cigarettes ...... 201W Social Enterprises...... 161W Health...... 202W Termination of Employment...... 161W Health Services: Essex...... 203W West Coast Railway Line ...... 161W Heart Diseases ...... 205W Hospitals...... 207W TREASURY ...... 184W Hospitals: Capital Investment...... 207W Air Passenger Duty ...... 185W Human Trafficking ...... 208W Billing ...... 186W Medical Records: Databases ...... 208W Climate Change Levy...... 186W Medical Treatments...... 209W Developing Countries: Tax Avoidance ...... 186W Mental Health Services ...... 209W Financial Institutions...... 187W Mesothelioma ...... 210W Income Tax: Scotland ...... 187W NHS: Pay...... 211W Limited Liability ...... 187W NHS: Private Finance Initiative ...... 212W Long-term Unemployment ...... 184W NHS: Standards...... 212W National Assembly for Wales: Fiscal Offences Against Children ...... 213W Accountability ...... 185W Palliative Care...... 214W National Insurance Contributions ...... 187W Pharmacy...... 214W Private Sector: Employment...... 188W Public Expenditure...... 215W Public Expenditure...... 188W Termination of Employment...... 215W Public Expenditure: North East ...... 188W Tobacco: EU Law ...... 216W Public Sector: Borrowing ...... 189W Revenue and Customs...... 189W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 162W Small Businesses ...... 185W Apprentices...... 162W Smuggling: Tobacco...... 189W Asylum ...... 162W Stephen Hester...... 190W Bedfordshire Police ...... 163W Tax Allowances: Cultural Heritage ...... 190W Billing ...... 163W Taxation: Lancashire...... 190W Crime...... 164W Taxation: Shipping...... 191W Drugs: Crime ...... 165W Termination of Employment...... 191W Entry Clearances...... 167W Territorial Army: Departmental Staff ...... 185W Heathrow Airport ...... 168W Trade Competitiveness ...... 191W Human Trafficking ...... 169W Human Trafficking Ministerial Group...... 175W WALES...... 143W Human Trafficking: Scotland...... 175W Fracking...... 143W Immigration...... 175W Immigration Controls ...... 176W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 194W Legal Opinion: Treaties...... 177W Disciplinary Proceedings...... 194W Members: Correspondence ...... 177W Police ...... 178W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 241W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 180W Anti-Slavery Day...... 241W Public Appointments ...... 180W Billing ...... 242W Registration of Births, Deaths, Marriages and Cattle: Accidents...... 243W Civil Partnerships...... 181W Employment: Disability ...... 244W Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme...... 182W Employment: Graduates ...... 244W Security Guards: Licensing ...... 182W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 243W Social Enterprises...... 183W Food Banks...... 244W Terrorism ...... 183W Future Jobs Fund: Coastal Areas...... 245W UK Border Agency ...... 184W Housing Benefit ...... 245W UK Membership of EU...... 184W Jobcentre Plus ...... 245W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Personal Independence Payment...... 245W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 249W Public Expenditure...... 246W Termination of Employment...... 250W Social Security Benefits...... 246W Universal Credit...... 250W Social Security Benefits: Alcoholic Drinks and Universal Credit: Lancashire...... 252W Drugs...... 248W Work Programme...... 252W Social Security Benefits: Drugs ...... 249W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 25 June 2013

Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 3MC London, Tilbury and Southend Railway Line...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 2 July 2013

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £4. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £600. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 565 Tuesday No. 23 25 June 2013

CONTENTS

Tuesday 25 June 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 143] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Opposition Day [4th allotted day] Lobbying [Col. 165] Motion—(Jon Trickett)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mr Lansley)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Armed Forces [Col. 228] Motion—(Mr Jim Murphy)—agreed to

Cross-border Health Care (England and Wales) [Col. 274] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall East of England Ambulance Service [Col. 1WH] Habitats Directive (Bats and Churches) [Col. 27WH] Royal Mail [Col. 35WH] Mitochondrial Disease [Col. 60WH] Horn Lane, Acton [Col. 67WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 3WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 143W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]