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FM TRIP A conversation with Al pignem Oliver Selfridge Using a knowledge-based architecture for a design automation application Facing Web content EE distribution challenges CO14PUTER SOCIETY 50yEARsoFsERvi( E • 1946-1996 0 What makes a compelling 4J10 THE INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC. empirical evaluation? powers of simple processing units but also Oliver Selfridge— in the physiology of computing in the brain. in from the start What was the next stagefbr you? In 1951, I transferred from Fort Mon- Peter Selfridge mouth in New Jersey to MIT Lincoln Labs [email protected] (Fort Monmouth had knuckled under to Senator Joe McCarthy, but Lincoln Labs had not, and therefore I moved). By another Driven by his curiosity about the nature I was studying mathematics under Norbert stroke of luck, I bumped into Marvin Min- of learning, Oliver Selfridge has spent over Wiener. By luck, of which I've had a great sky, who was fresh from a Doctorate at a half century enmeshed in the most excit- deal in my life, I was introduced to Walter Princeton and was a Fellow at Harvard. He ing developments in artificial intelligence, Pitts, who was working with Warren was a very bright mathematician and communications, and computer science. A McCulloch on a topic they called theoreti- thinker in general—his thesis was on a par- participant at the original conference at cal neurophysiology. I had studied logic, ticular model of, again, neural nets. Marvin Dartmouth in 1956(and at the Western and through Walter, Warren, and Norbert worked for me one summer and then got a Joint Computer Conference in Los Angeles got introduced to neural nets at that time. I job in the mathematics department at MIT, the year before, which he considers the true went to the Pacific at the end of World War working next to RLE,the Research Labora- start of Al), Selfridge formed working rela- II with the US Navy and came back to tory for Electronics, where we met often tionships and cemented friendships with graduate school, again at MIT. Norbert was with Warren, Walter, and the rest of the AI's founding members—John McCarthy, then writing Cybernetics,1 and Walter and I early community.(MIT's Radiation Labora- Marvin Minsky, and Allen Newell, among were helping him with various aspects of it. tory played a crucial role during World War others—as he went on to become a true AI As I studied mathematics(my original II. It invented and built all of the really pow- pioneer himself. field) and interacted with Norbert, Warren, erful radar systems in the latter part of the Before retiring in 1993 after 10 years as and Walter, I began to be interested in the war. It evolved into RLE, which is celebrat- Chief Scientist at GTE Laboratories, Com- specific processing that neural nets could ing its 50th anniversary this fall.) puter and Information Systems Lab, he do and even more interested in the general At that point, we were using the term served as a member of the National Secu- properties of learning. artificial intelligence and thinking about rity Agency's Advisory Board for 20 years, At this point McCulloch and Pitts had many of the general ideas about intelli- chairing its Data Processing Panel for the written the first two Al papers (although it gence that are still around today—the last 15 of those. He also served on various wasn't called that).2 The first showed that a tough cognitive processing that people did, advisory panels to the White House, as neural net could work out certain kinds of perception, games like chess. We were try- well as on the peer review committee for problems, such as pattern recognition in the ing to tie in the modeling that could be the National Institute of Health (NIH), general cognitive sense, and the second dis- done with neural nets to these more obvi- directed Project MAC and the Cambridge cussed acquisition of patterns(how we ous intelligent behaviors of people. My Project at MIT's Lincoln Labs, and was know "universals"). These two works fol- stress was then, as it still is, to understand Staff Scientist at Bolt, Beranek, and lowed all the glorious mathematics that how learning takes place as the primary Neuman (BBN). He continues to write and Turing and &Mel had done in the twenties source of intelligence in people. speak on machine learning and Al, and and thirties about computability and Turing especially on self-improving systems. machines. This mathematics was, of course, This was before computers were generally This profound, long-term familiarity with the beginning of a formal description of available—true? Was it before Von Neu- both the philosophical underpinnings of Al what computability meant. Johnny Von mann had invented the programmable com- and the practical application of AI technol- Neumann visited us at MIT occasionally, so puter? Ifso, how did you work—on paper? ogy places him in a most advantageous again by pure luck, before the age of twenty, We were essentially doing mathematical position to comment on the growth of the I had been introduced to McCulloch, Pitts, and algorithmic modeling on paper. This field in this 40th anniversary year of the Wiener, and Von Neumann. was in 1953, so we knew all about Von Dartmouth Conference. Peter Selfridge, Neumann's work—he had visited us and Oliver's son and an Al luminary in his own Your original background is mathematics, understood what we were up to. And, while right(AT&T Laboratories—Research, pre- but many ofthese ideas begin to verge into we weren't writing Al programs yet, we had viously part of AT&T Bell Laboratories, biology. Was this accidental? had some experience with early computers. member ofIEEE Expert's Editorial Board), I went through MIT, and so I got a very I had done some programming on World- recently asked his father to assess Al's fair liberal arts training, including things wind, a very old computer put together by progress since its earliest days. such as biology. One of my roommates was Jerry Wiesner at MIT to get money out of Jerry Lettvin, a super neurophysiologist, the Air Force (which it did superbly well). Peter Selfridge: How did you become inter- and McCulloch had also been a neurophysi- Lincoln Labs was a follow-on to that. ested in Al? ologist of some renown.3 When one looks at So, while Marvin and I were having Oliver Selfridge: It was at MIT, a long the early work on neural nets, you find these interesting thoughts, computer tech- time before the Dartmouth Conference, and yourself interested not just in the computing nology was exploding in the basement of OCTOBER 1996 15 interested—Wes Clark and and so yes, we were in our late twenties. Belmont Farley at Lincoln There was a great deal of excitement. Labs come to mind. Bel- mont Farley wanted to be a Can you now talk about the Dartmouth wet neurophysiologist, and Conference, which people think ofas being so he was interested in the start ofAl? neural nets, too. By luck, at The Dartmouth Conference was funded one point I made a trip out by the Rockefeller Foundation, as I men- to the Rand Corporation— tioned. It started, I think, on August 6„ 1956, this was 1954—in Santa and lasted roughly four weeks. In that Monica, California. Rand sense, it wasn't a conference like today—it was smaller then; I was went on much longer, and was much more talking to Willis Ware and a loosely structured. Many people were young, smart psychologist invited and dropped by. I was not there the from Carnegie—it wasn't whole time. We would meet and give talks Carnegie Mellon then, it and argue, all those wonderful things. Many was Carnegie Institute of came who shared our goals and excitement: Technology—named Allen Roland Silver, Art Samuel, Leon Harmon. Newell. I talked about pat- There were not many people doing research tern recognition. And Allen in computing, but there was lots of interest and I hit it off, and this was among those who were. John Backus, who really the trigger. I mean he invented Fortran, turned up there. Oliver Selfridge, 1996. was ready for it. He got the And it was a John McCarthy show, so to whole idea, he got turned speak. At this stage, he was already begin- on, and he went back to ning to think about symbol processing. Building C at Lincoln Labs where they had Carnegie and turned Herb Simon on. Those Alan Newell really pushed us all into think- the Memory Test computer, all vacuum two went on to become, well, Newell and ing symbol processing rather than bit pro- tubes, and then the Transistor Test com- Simon of CMU,extraordinarily influential cessing—well, not quite rather than, but as puter(TXO). Jay Forrester was at MIT, and thinkers over the years. well as bit processing.