[ 179 Constitution (64Th and [RAJYA SABHA] 95Th Amdt.) Bill, 1889 180

[ 179 Constitution (64th and [RAJYA SABHA] 95th Amdt.) Bill, 1889 180

journ the House. I want the consensus of the House. SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS, No, no. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You want to continue? SHRI P. K. KUNJACHEN (Kerala): SHRI DIPEN GHOSH; We would I draw the attention of Deputy Chair- man to Rule 238A...(Interruptions) like to continue the discussion. - THAKUR JAGATPAL SINGH: Let THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now I us continue, Madam. want to know if the Members are interested in continuing the discussion SHRI VTSHVJIT P. SINGH; We on the Constitution Amendment Bills, want to discuss the Bills. or not. Otherwise I will adjourn the House. Mr. Maran, do you want to THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; We speak? will continue. ... (Interruptions) ... Don't get agitated. We are discussing SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: Ad- the Bills. Yes, Mr. Maran. journ the House.

SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- 1. THE CONSTITUTION (SHXTY DRA: We are ready to discuss any FOURTH AMENDMENT)BILL,19892. time. _ '; 2.THE CONSTITUTION (SIXTY- FIFTH AMENDMENT) BILL, 1989— SHRi N. K. P. SALVE: Mr. Maran Contd. -says, not mow but day after tomorrow. SHRI PARVATHANENI. UPEN- SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: Madam DRA; We want the discussion to con- Chairman, I rise to oppose these two tinue. Let us finish the business. Bills because I am one of those per- sons, as Advaniji has referred to, who SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: Let the dis- is full of indignation even at the sight fcussion continue, of the two Bills because these two Bills declare a war on the States by THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; Mr. usurping their rights and encroaching Maran, your name is listed. You upon what little autonomy they have. should speak. If you are sitting in the Madam according to me, these two House,, why should I... Bills are instruments of agression because they intend to occupy legislative SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; I do fields exclusively reserved for the not mind. But how long are we con- States. tinuing? (Interruptions) it appears that we are not at all serious on chese [The Vice-Chairman (Shri V. Nara- two Constitution Amendment Bills. yanasamy) in the Chair] The Prime Minister and other SOME HON. MEMBERS: We are Congress leaders have described the 'quite serious. Bills as historic. Yes, they are histo- SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; I think ric because, like the draconian provi- We are only wasting time. What is the sions in the 42nd Amendment and the use of speaking? Emergency—(the two ugly blots on the Constitution which took away the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Fine. If basic rights and freedoms of the citi- the Members do not want, I can ad- zens of India these two outrageous 181 Constitution (64th and [ 16 AUG. 1989 ] 65m Amdt.) Bill, 1989 182-

Constitutional amendments brazenly sides the Chief Ministers' conference take away the rights of the States, a conference of all the political party •kill federalism and subvert the very leaders should be conducted and we basic structure of the Constitution. could have evolved a consensus. But Sir, you may ask the question: What it was not conceded. So, it shows the are your views regarding panchayati mind of the ruling party. raj? Yes, we feel that panchayati raj should be recognized by the Consti- tution. We want Constitutional stipu- Sir, all the provisions in the Bills lation for periodic local body elec relate to subject-matters for legislations and the local bodies should not tion by the States. The previous be superseded without proper reason. speakers have made it very clear. En- We want Constitutional amendment try 5 of List II of the Seventh Sche- for just that and no more. dule says, "Local government" inclu- ding all local authorities for purpo- Mr. Vice-Chairman, in this regard I ses of local self-government. The would like to quote what the Chief subject vests with List II, that is, the -Minister of Tamil Nadu has written State List, It is entirely in the do- to the Prime Minister of India, I' main of the States. So, in spirit and quote: substance the amendments amount to "It would be best to treat the inroads into the autonomy and exclu- proposed Bill as a set of suggested sive powers of the State Govrenments. guidelines and leave it to the Sta- So, it is our view that this Parliament tes to modify or improve their pan- has no legislative competence to chayat legislations in the light of the bring these Bills. In fact, if you want provisions in the Bill, If, instead to usurp their powers, if you want to the Bill is pressed, it will only in- take away some of their provisions, troduce needless discord and rigi- some of the entries in the State List, dity in a matter in which consensus there is Article 249. You can bring in a and flexibility are called for. We resolution here in Rajya Sabha, and would, therefore, urge you not to _you can take away any subject, mat- • proceed with this measure. If this ter any entry from the State List for suggestion is not acceptable, I would one year by bringing a resolution by request you to convene a meeting passing a resolution in Rajya Sabha. of Chief Ministers to discuss the But you are not doing it. So, if you matter once again in the light of really want the power to Parliament the proposed amendments to the to legislate with respect to a matter Constitution. The Bill may also in the State List in the national inte- be discussed with the leaders of all rest, there is a way. Article 249 pro- political parties represented in Par-, vides for that. But you are coming liament." through the back door to usurp the powers of the States. Sir, it is a trea- Sir, this is a suggestion made by cherous act, I would say. Mr, Gurupadaswamy also. We could have created a consensus because al- Then the power to amend the Cons- most all the parties are willing to titution under Article 368 is a very give Constitutional recognition to the wide power, but it does not include local bodies. We are willing that the the power to destroy or emasculate Constitution should say when elections the basic elements or fundamental fea- should be conducted for the local tures of the Constitution. The edi- bodies. The fixity of tenure should , fice of our Constitution is built upon be there and the local bodies should and stands on several pillars. You re- not be superseded for silly and flimsy move any one pillar. The entire ba- reasons. We are all one, almost all sic structure, the entire Constitution parties are one on this. That is why collapses. •pur Chief Minister insisted that be- 183 Constitution (64th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 184

[Shri Murasoli Maran] tion, the federation was not the Sir, the seven Judges who delivered result of an agreement by the States the judgement in the Kesavananda to join a federation. And the fe- Bharati case, have affirmed the doct- deration not being the result of an rine of the unamendable basic struc- agreement, no State has the right to ture of the Constitution. Among them, secede from it. The federation is three Judges, namely Chief Justice . the union because it is indestructi- Sikri,, Justice Shelat and Justice Gro- ble." ver, have given the seal of approval for the federal character as an insep- So, he did not want to use the word arable part of the basic structure. So "federal" because, as you know, any the Kesavananda Bharati case judge- student of Politics knows, "federa-. ment still is the law of the land. It tion" means jozdus that some agree- has not been superseded. So, the ment should be there. In India it federal character is one of the basic was not present. Even though we structures of the constitution. have not used the word "federal", You may say, India is not federal. - we are federal, We are quasi-federal. People say, it is quasi-federal. Some: We want it to be fully federal. We people say it is federal but loaded in, want our federation to be a whole- favour of the Centre biased in favour some federation. of the Centre, it may be true, it may vary in degree. But basically Not only that, Pt. Nehru has also it is federal. It may be more fede- said that India is federal. I want to ral or less federal. It is a different quote from Panditji's letter; matter. It may not be a wholesome "We are a federal union with a federation like the United states of large measure of autonomy in the America or Canada or Australia. That States. I think, this autonomy is is a different matter. But it is federal. good." It has got a federal character. But, of late, I am seeing that some Sir, these words are from the let- senior Ministers, senior leaders are ters of Panditji which he wrote to going about saying that India is not the Chief Ministers on November 15, federal. Sir this is something astoun- 1954. That was the respect he has ding. They say, it is unitary. Now shown to the Chief Minister. That I remember that the hon. Prime Mi- was the respect he showed to the nister has also stated that the word principle of federalism. That was "federal" is not to be found in the the respect he showed to Constitution of India. I am very the principle of consensus. sorry for his ignorance. The word This year happens to be the Nehru " federal" is not to be seen in the Centenary Year, but you are not res- Constitution of the United States also. pecting his wishes. Just now I have But nobody would say that the Cons- quoted Ambedkar who said: 'India is titution of the USA is not federal. a federation.' You as a unveiled a Only a fool would say it. It need not portrait of Dr. Ambedkar in the be there. The word "union" denotes Gentral Hall only a few days ago,, that ours is a federal constitution. but you are trampling upon his words and saying India is not at all a fede- Dr. Ambedkar has clearly stated ration. This is a very dangerous in the Constituent Assembly: concept. So, X would like to ask the -rulers to correct themselves. If you "I can tell you why the Drafting want to make this country unitary, Committee has used the word you will be going into quicksands of union. The Drafting Commit- history. By these two Bills you are tee wanted to make it dear that destroying the federal character. For though India was to be a federa- example Schedules XI and XII are ■Qie 185 Constitution (64tft and [16 AUG. 1980] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 186

central pieces of these two legisla- to take revenge on the States, bypass tions. For example, here in the them and destroy them. This appe- Constitution we have List II as the ars to be the intention of the ruling State List, Look at Schedule XI— party. You are not tampering with the Panchayati Raj Schedule. In that one entry alone; most of the entires 20 entries are there. In the Munici- are tampered with. But they may palities and Nagarpalika Bill in say why Schedules XI and XII are Schedule XII, there are 37 entries. In here? They may say: the State may, the Constitution, the State List con- by law, endow the Panchayats; the sists only of 66 entries. If you add States may, by law, endow the munici. up these, 29 plus 37 comes to 67. So, palities and Nagarpalikas. They may ates are given only 66 entries and say O.K. these powers are with the t these two Bills—Municipalities and States. They may, by law,' endow Panchayats—take away 67 powers. it. So, the opportunities may be Strangely none of these powers has given to them. They may say like been deleted from the State List. that. But in effect it is not like Say, for example in Schedule XI that. The may' here is going to be agriculture forms part of Entry 14 in 'Shall'. No less a person than the List I. Then land improvement^ soil former Law Minister, a legal lumi- conservation etc. is Entry 18 in the nary, Mr. Shiv Shanker, has said: State List; animal husbandry, dairy We will compel the States to obey and poultry is Entry 15 in the State these provisions. If they do not en- List; Fisheries is Entry 21 in the State dow these powers to the Municipali- List; Market and fairs is. Entry 28 in ties or Panchayats, then we will use the State List; public health, sanita- Article 356 and dismiss the State tion etc. in the Nagarpalika Bill is Governments. Without shame he Entry 6 in the State List. Hospitals, said that. What is the logic? I would primary health centres, dispensaries say this is the logic of a terrorist. The also belong to Entry 6 of the State terrorist uses his gun. The Congress List. Then burials and burial gro- people use article 356 to terrorise the unds, cremation and cremation grou- States. So there is no difference nds is Entry 10 in the State List. between this terrorist and that ter- Burials and burial grounds are not rorist. given to Panchayats, but only to Mu- 7.00 P.M. nicipalities. Probably they want; to SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Neo-terro. have electric cremation grounds. That rists. is how they are thinking like this. So, these are all double entries. Al- SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: Yes, I most all the entries found in Schedul- would call them neo-terrorists. es XI and XII are found in List H. So, these subjects are not deleted from Sir, these two Bills are like the tip the State List, but are now given to of an iceberg. So these are the tips. the local boards. Is it not denuding There is. a lot of hidden mischief in the powers of the States, I want to these Bills. We have to go beneath ask you? Does it not change the and read between the lines to under- federal character and basic structure stand the hidden mischief. A distinc- of the" Constitution? ' You have not tion is sought to be made. For ex- deleted the same entries in the State ample, while dealing with the func- List, but are adding and donating tions of the Municipalities and the them to the Panchayats and Munici- Panchayats, they are given powers palities. So, my opinion; is you are with regard to preparation of plans (reducing the States to nullity. Parlia- for economic development and social ment cannot arrogate to itself the justice. Not only preparation of. role of an official liquidator of the plans but implementation of schemes States. That is my opinion. Because .also. Here is a subtle difference. So Rajiv Gandhi has not won in any they make a difference between pre- single election in the States, he wants paration of a plan and implements- 187 Constitution (64th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 188

[Shri Murasoli Maran] collect data at block level. Sir, NIC" tion of a scheme. Sir, here is the will be manned not by the State Gov- hidden mischief. Does it mean that ernment officials—no State Govern- the States will not have the right to ment officials will be there at the 'blo- prepare the plans? You make a ck level—but it will be completly distinction in' the preparation of staffed by the Central Government plans. You give all the powers to for preparation of model district plan. the Panchayats and to the Municipali- They will be collecting information ties. Does it mean that the local and that information would: be used bodies alone will be entrusted with plans. Recently they had trial- the implementation of the schemes? balloons also, A model district To use the words of Mr. Upendra, this plan was prepared in respect of is a diabolical scheme. I will tell Almora district in Uttar Pradesh at you how. It has got a history behind the instance of the Central Govern- it. In ...1987-88, the Prime Minister ment. What is the next step, you can held a series of workshops of District imagine. The next step will be the Magistrates and Collectors on the vetting of district plan by the Plann- theme of "responsive administration." ing Commission bypassing the State A further discussion took place am- Governments. So they are making the ong top officials and a report was State Governments irrelevant. submitted in 1988. The report, it seems, recommended details about who will be in charge of planning, ex- Sir, another thing is that everybody ecution and monitoring of plans at the from the other side talked about uni- district level. So they have taken formity. Why should there be uni- district as a unit. So they have given formity? i cannot understand. Sir, in who will be in charge of planning, Tamil Nadu, for example, during who will execute it and who will elections, the Prime Minister visited 13 monitor; it. It is going to be the times. Every time he uttered the word District Magistrate or the District Perunthalaivar Kamraj. Every sen- Collector who will be the Chief Exe- tence was 'filled with Kamaraj Kama- cutive Officer. The District Magist- raj. We will create a Kamaraj raj. We rate or Collector will deal with law will do this in the name of Kamaraj. and order as well as with the deve- But what is the thing that has hap- lopment also. So it is very clear, it pened in Tamil Nadu? For example, the is not power to the people. Delhi Panchayati Raj was originally created wants to control the Panchayats and during the regime of Perunthalaivar Municipalities through DMs. So it is Kamaraj. During his regime, the foun- the rule of PM through DM. It is dation was laid. He created the apex their idea. They want to do it—PM level of district boards, the upper tie* through DM. of the Panchayati Raj, the third level tier. But very soon he found that it SHRl M. A. BABY (Kerala): Don't was filled up by feudal lords and caste you know that the Prime Minister is leaders. So, he abolished it. So, the contemplating convening of a meeting people of Tamil Nadu are full of praise of Head Constables also so that law for Kamaraj for this kind of achieve- and order can be looked after. ment. I challenge this party, come to SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: I am Tamil Nadu and say, we have given' not aware of it? power to the people through the Dis- trict Boards and direct elections. Can Sir, the mischief does not stop you tell us?... (Interruptions)... here. Our fears -of PM operating through DM are reinforced by the setting up recently of the National In- SHRI K. V. THANGKABALU formatics Centre at Delhi. What is (Tamil Nadu): . We will challenged their function? Their function is to Don't worry. (Interruption). 189 Constitution (64th and [16 AUG. 1989] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 190

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. You are bringing back direct elections. NARAYANASAMY): Mr. V. Gopal- What does indirect election mean? samy, allow Mr. Maran to speak. That means the money-bags, boot led- gers, those people will be ruling. The SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; Mr. voters will be kidnapped. They will be Thangkabalu is challenging Kamaraj threatened. They will be coerced. and not me because he does not know Money power will play a big role. So, Kamaraj. He knows only Rajiv I want to ask a question; are you gain- Gandhi. What Kamaraj undid, you ing power to the people or you are go- want to do. (Interruptions)... ing to give power to the feudal lords, caste leaders and underworld dons? THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. No, we cannot accept that. So, purpo- NARAYANASAMY): Mr. Maran, don't sely I accuse that because you have enter into argument with the...(In- money power,' because you have un- terruptions) ... derworld links, you want to continue these indirect elections. Otherwise, Mr. Gopalsamy, you allow Mr. Maran there is no reason why you should have to speak. it. You yourself know even in Pondt- cherry what hag happened, I want SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: There to ask you, Sir. He konws be-cause he are certain special' features in every belongs to Pondieher- State. Do you think that every State ry. I tell you, in Tamil Nadu,, is the same? You are wrong. Every poor people have become chairman State is special, unique and distinct in of municipalities. Poor people have its own way. Do you mean to say become chairpersons of panchayat Tamil Nadu is like Andhra Pradesh or unions. How? Because there is direct Andhra Pradesh is like Kerala? No. election. People vote for the parties. I belong to Thanjavur district. East That is how these poor people who Thanjavur is totally different from serve the public, who serve the poor, west Thanjavur in all aspects. Now, are elected. If you make elections you want uniformity. What kind of indirect, only rich money-bags, feudal uniformity you want? (.Interruptions) lords and underworld dons will come. .. .1 know it hut I do not want to men- So, I would like to tell the Govern- tion it. Your own partymen are res- ment, this is very dangerous, this is a ponsible. I do not want to go into retrograde step. How do you expect detail. (Interruptions)... the people of Tamil Nadu to digest this? If you say these Bills are elec- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. tion gimmicks. I am not worried. NARAYANASAMY): Don't react to You come to Tamil Nadu and tell the all the details. people. We are not afraid. People .'know. This alone will defeat you, SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; We defeat the Congress or whoever ut- have got certain specialities. Take for ters this because they know that this; example, Karnataka. During Hegde's does not give power to the people; rule, they have done wonderful things. this gives power to the bureaucrats;, But you cannot expect that the same this gives power to the money—bags; thing will become a success in Tamil this gives power to the feudal lords; Nadu. For example, over the years, this gives power to the slum lords and we have a time-tested Panchayati Raj underworld dons. So we are not wor- system. We have got only two tiers. ried about these Sills. But you are For example, In the lower Panchayat. going to multiply the Central bureau- level and in the intermediate level, cracy. (Interruptions). I am going i.e. Panchayat Union level the elec- to ask you. As Advaniji pointed out tions are direct elections. There is no these two Bills are" full of unwanted indirect election. But what are you details, flimsy details. You want to going to do through these two Bills? give everything to the Election Com- 191 Constitution (64th. and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 192

[Shri Murasoli Maran] (Karnataka, Andhra. Pradesh, West mission as if the Election Commission Bengal and Tamil Nadu and other . is a paragon of virtue. We know States where these local boards are a that the Election Commission is sub- success. You should go and study. servient to you. If they want to con- You should have gone there. I think duct a by-election, they will come to once at least the Prime Minster has the Government and ask, "When can praised these States—I think without we have it?" As if the Election Com- mentioning Tamil Nadu. So i thank mission is a paragon of virtue you him. Take, for example, the United have put in the Election Commission. States. We know the New Deal of Then, the C and A G. I cannot under- President Roosevelt. Do you think it stand. Only recently you have casti- was his original idea? I am quoting gated them. Why are you bringing this. He borrowed it from the States. them again? Suddenly you have l°ve Sir I quote. "FDR's initiatives inc- and affection for the C and A G. I luding Unemployment compensation, think.you are in a fool's paradise. massive public works programmes, As Advaniji has put it, I think those deposit insurance and social security; who have drafted these Bills, those are modelled on successful State pro- flunkies, have never seen, never grammes." A Supreme Court Justice, known the history and geography of Louis Brandis, said in his famous judg- India. instead of the Prime Minister ment: going to Lakshadweep and Aanda- mans he should go to a village and "It is one of the nappy incidents live there for ten days. Then he will of the federal system that a single understand the realities. There are - courageous State, if its citizens thousands of villages, lakhs of villa- choose eould serve as a laboratory, ges. Their accounts are, the smallest and try n°val social and economic .village will have Rs. 5000|_ to Rs. experiments without risk to the rest 10,000]. as its income. Do you mean - of the country." to say the O and A G will go there? What is this? Sir, this is absurd; to Here are the laboratories: Karnataka, say the worst. For example, in our Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal and State, the Examiner of Local Accounts Tamil Nadu. Take, for example, the is looking after, is auditing the ac- mid-day meal scheme. It was intro- counts and he is auditing twice a duced by Kamraj and then improved year. Part I is inspected half-yearly upon by MGR. It wag a laboratory. and Part II is inspected annually. Do Then there was also the Rs. 2 a mea- you mean to say the C and AG will go sure rice schema.which was created annually and half-yearly to those re- in Andhra Pradesh laboratory. mote villages? How is it possible? Instead of considering the States The people who have drafted these as your laboratories, you are do not know anything. For example, going to. create, uniformity. I am in Tamil Nadu, our Legislature is go- against the 'word ' uniformity? How ing through the Report of the Audi- can you use it for the whole .of India* tor-Genera", issued two years ago. So Can you bring in a uniform civil code? much work is pending. If they are to Do you have the courage to do that'? look after the accounts of the several No. Why? For legitimate reasons. I lakhs of villages, what will happen? agree with you. Some people may So, the intension is clear. If you want Sofc agree . with you. Then why are to give the-panchayat raj and the you bringing in uniformity in regard municipal raj in the hands of money- to panchayats and nagarpalikas alone? bags, nothing will work. There won't This is very dangerous. ,' You are be any auditing. These two Bills are. Creating centralisation, in fact, the fraught with dangers. them of. centralisation runs through the fabric of these Bills. . Do you Sir there is another thing. In fact, think that this, sub-continent .can be you should consider those States like 193 Constitution (64th and [ 16 AUG. 1989 ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 194

run from one centre? But that is Bills have been brought to subvert your idea. Now after passing these the fundamental, basic; federal; Cha- two Bills, if it is possible, you are racter of the Constitution by conver- going to lay your hands on coopera- ting it into a unitary one. This po- tives. One after the other, you are litical advanturism is dangeroug to going to do that ____ the unity and integrity of India. SHRI PABVATHANENI UPEN- We cannot be a party to the destruc- DRA: He threatened the judiciary tion of the basic structure of the also. Constitution. In the unlikely event of the Bills being passed, I -assure you SHRI MURASOLI MARAN; Yes, that the States which are conscious of but judiciary is very small. As Mr, their rights will go to the Supreme Baby has put it, they can touch law Court to test there Constitutlonal and order, all the constables. What validity. I hope that occasion will not will happen? 1 will be very happy if arise. it is possible and if you can manage THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. it from the Centre. But no. Please NARAYANASAMY); Now the honou- look at the history. The Maury as rable Minister of State for Rural tried that experiment of centralisa- Development, Shri Janardhan Poo- tion; they failed. The Guptas tried it; jari, will intervene. they failed. The Moghuls tried it; they failed. You should take" appro-, THE MINISTER OP STATE IN THE priate lessons from history. With, the DEPARTMENT OF RURAL DEVE- advancement of science and technology LOPMENT IN THE MINISTRY OF the world has become a global village, AGRICULTURE (SHRI JANARDHAN it is true. But on the other hand regi- POOJARI): Mr. Vice-chairman, Sir, nalism and separatism—I mean plural- as the Minister for Rural Develop- ism have also grown side by side .In ment looking after the Panchayati countries like the USA, the USSR, Raj institutions and the Jawahar Roz- Australia Canada there is federalism, gar Yojana and other programmes for Why? For example, in Canada Aus- rural development, I am speaking tralia and USA; have they done away now. with federalism? No, not possible. I have heard with rapt attention Why That is what they call due to the contribution made by the Opposi- the tyranny of geography. In such tion parties and also by the Treasury a big country, with a vastgeographi- Benches. For the benefit of the ho- cal area one State is industrially ad- nourable Members; at the very out- vanced, one is an agricultural State; set; Sir, I wish to submit that I have one State is a desert. How can you not intervened or interrupted even reconcile these different types of Sta- though there was provocation. In tes in such a big country? Only fede- fact, I followed the rules and I never ralism can reconcile them. We are interrupted when the honourable a country of continental proportions. Members were speaking. I expect the Only federalism can succeed here. same treatment from you also for us You cannot ignore its diversity. If and I sincerely hope that the honou- you ignore it if you impose unifor- rable Members on both the sides mity, if you create more centralisa- would nave the patience to hear me tion,'the whole thing will crumble too. under its own weight. This is a fact of history; Therefore, I would say Sir the honourable Members, Shri these two Bills will emaciate the Upendraji and also Shri Advaniji, States making Panchayati raj and mu- raised certain points: certain impor- nicipal raj unworkable and ineffcient tant issues. They have stated that with a huge Central bureaucracy and it is an encroachment on the an appressive Centre. These two powers of the States and It is | 195 Constitution (64th and [RAJYA SABHA] 65th- Amdt.) Bill, 1989 196

[Shri Janardhan Poojari] you are a respected Member and you going to destroy the basic struc- have been teaching in the classes, ture. That is the point made by the and you have been- teaching the stu- honourable Member from Tamil Nadu dents Please hear me and please from the DMK Party also. It has remember that I have not interrup- also been stated that we want to pre- ted you at all. So, please hear me. petuate the Rajiv Raj.... (Interrup- Sir, the honourable Member, who tions).., is a senior leader in this House, Shri L. K. Advani, has stated that in the SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: That is Congress (I) ruled States the elec- not possible. tions are not held regularly. But I SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: will say that not only in the Congress Who has stated this? The honourable (I) ruled States but also in the Oppo- Member from Andhra Pradesh, Shri sition ruled States, the elections are Upendraji; has stated that. It is a not held to the local bodies regularly clear statement from that honourable In the Opposition-ruled States elec- Member that by these measures we tions to the urban bodies are not held are going to perpetuate the Rajiv Raj regularly. In the State of Karnataka in this country. That, means you are elections are not held to the local admitting that it is a good measure bodies even alter the expiry of the by which we are going to perpetuate 5-year term. The Janata Dal did the Rajiv Raj.... (Interruptions)... not hold the election. Even in the case of Tamil Nadu they wanted to hold election for Madras Corporation SHRI PARVATHANENl UPEN- r DRA; I. said that you are seeking to and f° other local bodies also. They perpetuate the Rajiv Raj through the did not hold the electibns. So even Panchayati Raj... (Interruptians)... there are provisions in the State laws to hold elections regularly. 'These elections are not held as stated by our SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI; Mr. respected Advaniji. This is the the- Upendra, I respect you. Even though sis. Now. if that is the thesis, as there was provacation; I did not inter- the hon. Member Shri Advani has rupt you. stated, according to you: there was no SHRI PARVATHANENl UPEN- Swaraj. Swaraj has come only now. . DRA Don't misquote me. That is what he has stated. (Interrup- : tions) SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: This is what you have stated. It has You have got a bad habit, Mr. Pro- come in the papers also and I was fessor, I do not know how your stu- , hearing you and I was noting down. dents were. (Interruptions) . So you are scared of these measures. PROP. C. LAKSHMANNA; If my You do not want these measures to students made false statements or ,be adopted by the nation. Now, I wrong statements like you and I do fully agree with the honourable Mem- not correct them... (Interruptions) ,.ber, Advaniji; and to a certain extent; with you also. Her© it has been SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI; Mr. stated that the State Governments Professor, L. K. Advaniji is sitting. have been flouting thire own statues. He can say. He can stand up and say ... (Interruptions)... that Poojari is wrong. PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA; Who SHRI LAL K. ADVANI; If you has stated that?.... (Interruptions)... want me to say I will say it. Mr. Vice-Chairman. Sir, because he re- , SHRI-,.. JANARDHAN POOJARI: ferred to me and pointedly quoted me. Please hear me. Prof. Lakshmanna. 197 Constitution (64th and [16 AUG. 1989] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 198

I did refer to the Prime Minister's accept it; let us admire it also. What speech yesterday I said that I was has he done? He his ,gone to the surprised to hear from the Prime Mi- people. First he went to the people nister that Swaraj in the real sense to find out whether we are giving of the word has come to the people of them th esrvice and whether the India only now I stated that that state- people are getting the benefits of the ment not only smacked of arrongan- Government programmes. ce but it was a denunciation of his predecessors in office. SHRI LAL K. ADVANI- Mr Vice SHRi JANARDHAN POOJARI; Sir Chairman, sir, with your permission here now, inside Parliament, as the I would like to understand what responsible Parliament Members; you would be the implications of adoption are bringing out the deficiencies the of these Bills in a State like Tamil shortfalls,- in the system. Outside Nadu where the two-tier system is Parliament also you are bringing out working very well. What they will the deffciencies and shortfalls. Now have to do is to abolish the whole whether as responsible Members of set-up and bring in.a new three-tier Parliament or the political personali- system according to this Bill. Why is ties in the country, we have to rectify this kind of uniformity being imposed or we have to continue with that the- on all the States? Why not add one sis, this the moot question for consi- single provision that we have sugges- deration of this august House, whe- ted and that is: "Though this may ther we have to bring improvement be the Bill, it would 'not be obligatory in the system or we have to be satis- for every State to adopt it"? You fied with the system and this Consti- just explain it. tution also, whether it should be sta- tic, there should not be any devolve- ment, whether there should not be SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: We • any improvement. Now, as you are will explain and every point. But. the responsible Members of Parlia- at the same time, the hon. Member ment the highest body; the people should know that it is my duty to look at you. That is why in answer the questions raised by the 1975 Shri Jayaprakash Narayanji hon. Members. , When there is an and others went to the President attack on this Bill from various ang- "and represented. And not only that. les, I have to meet the points one by When you were ruling the country one. That liberty at least -should be between 1977 and 1979 you appointed given to me. For that must have a committee, Ash ok Mehta Commit- patience. tee. You told them that there should be some improvement. What did the Ashok Mehta Committee do? They Now we heard Mr. Upendra. We have given a sample for us, the have given him sufficient time. We Constitution, to be adopted by us,. heard him for two days. For your And then, after having come into information he repeated in the begin- powe'r the Prime Minister of the ning what he had stated earlier. I have, noted all the points. Now you country, a young man, when he en- must also have patience. The Prime tered the Prime Minister's office, he Minister, after consulting the people, did not sit, as the hon. Member from called meetings of District Collec- the DMK party has stated, in an tors. Why did he convene those ivory tower; he went to every nook meetings of District Collectors. Hon. and corner of the country. It was Members from the opposition— I par- the toughest tour. You have also tieuarly mention Advianiji—are also witnessed it. Let us not forget. If interested in the welfare of the peor at all somebody is working, let us 199 Constitution (,64th abd [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 200 [Shri Janardhan Poojari] PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: Strictly. pie. Why did I say particularly Ad- Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, the Bills vaniji? Because he is not 'ruling any under discussion have a procedure for State. the devolution of finances. Under this, there will be a Finance Commission to be appointed, and that Finance SOME HON. MEMBERS: Haryana. Commission ' will determine as to SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: what portion of the State's resources Yes. He is an ally there. It is an will flow to the Panchayats. There- amendment. They are ruling under fore, there is nowhere any discussion Devi Lal. Now let us see the pertac- about the money that there is now- mance of the States. I am giving the money that is being given by the performance not only of your States Centre to the Panchayats. Therefore, hut also of the Congress-ruled States. what is the point in bringing in he're by the Minister as to what has been The people want implementation of given under NREP and what has been the programmes. The programmes the performance of the States? How should be implemented efficiently and is that related to this? the benefit should go to the people. Now, I am just giving the ■performance of the States. Andhra Pradesh: SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- A total resource of 58.17 crores of RA: It has no relevance. rupees was made available. PROF. c. LAKSHMANNA; Sir, we SHRI SUKOMAL SEN; West Ben- are not here discussing as to what gal): What is the relation between has been the performance of differnt the two Bills and the local perform- States with regard to the money that ance? First of all, you list your own is devolving from the Centre to the failures. States, etc. If there has to be a dis- SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: cussion on that, that will be a diffe- This is the trouble with you. You rent occasion and we can discuss don't want to hear. This is the about it. That is why I said in the trouble. It is better for all of us. I beginning itself that let this discus- will give the figures of Congress-ruled sion on the Panchayati Raj Bill and States also. Don't worry. A sum of the Nagarapalika Bill be confined to Rs. 58.17 crores was made available the aspects of it. And if somebody to Andhra Pradesh. The expenditure is going out of it and trying to dis- was Rs. 47.35 crores. cuss what is not part of it, then, I thank, it is not fair on the part of SHRI MURASOLI MARAN: What anybody to discuss that. Therefore, is it for? I would like you to kindly ask the Minister to confine himself only to SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: that. ' This is for NREP. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- NARAYANASAMY): The Minister is RA: What is the relation between within his right to refer to any ..ex- NREP, Jawahar Rozgar Yojha and penditure incurred by each State on Panchayat Bill? Is there any men- various schemes. And he is telling tion of these things in the Bills? that in relation to the Panchayati Raj PROF. C, LAKSHMANNA: On a institutions in the country. There- point of order, Sir. for, he can speak. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI! NARAYANASAMY): Stirictly it Now, Sir, the performance of Karna- should be on a point of order. taka in 1985-86... Rs. 45.13 crores 201 Constitution (64th and [ 16 AUG. 1989 ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 202 was made available. They spent only , Amendments. Then there will also Rs. 37.82 awes. Then comes Kerala. be 30 per cent reservation for women. The resources made available was Rs. I don't think any Member of this 24.39 cro'res. They spent Rs. 18.96 House will be against this provision. crores. In the case of West Bengal, Rs. 51.51 crores was made available. SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: They spent Rs. 28.39 crores,. The per- The point made by Advaniji was formance is 55.12 per cent, like- that People's Representation Act can- wise, for your information, here Rs. not be a Part of the Constitution. You 85.82 crores was made available. They don't try to bring it as a part of the spent Rs. 70.65 .crores. The perform- Constitution. That was the point ance is 82.32 per cent. In the case of made. Goa, they have made available Rs. 77.6 crores and they spent Rs. 77.6 [THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI crores which is 100 per cent perform- MIRZA IRSHADBAIG) in the Chair.] ance. Then in the case of Gujarat... SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: I am not yielding because I did not in- SHRI CHATURANAN MISHRA terrupt when they were speaking. (Bihar): is it because of s very high leakage in expenditure in the Cong- ress States? SHRi CHATURANAN MlSHRiA: I am asking that since Chairpersons are changing hands, whether Members SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: - It will also be allowed to change their could be stated anyway. But the hands. How long are we to sit here? point is that this is the performance. Till what time are we required to sit? Elections are not held, funds are also We should know about it. not going, and authority is also not there. More powers should °e given to the Panchayati Raj institutions. That is the desire of the Pan- chayati Raj 'representatives. They have stated irrespective of the party affiliation that there should be improvement. Now, so far as the elections are concerned, as I stated earlier, even though there is a provision, it has been flouted. What is the remedy? If it is incorporated in the Constitution, it will be a constitutional obligation. They cannot flout SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI; the election. They cannot manipulate About this reservation of 30 per cent, the election. And then elections will some states are agreeable but West be held regularly. Now, hon. Mem- Bengal Government is not prepared ber Shri Upendra and also Shri L. K. to give reservation for women. Advani have Stated that so far as this SHRIMATI KANAK MUKHERJEE aspect is concerned, they would have agreed for that. That means, this is (West Bengal): There are ten thou- not affecting the basic structure. It sand elected women in all ------is a clear admission. If the provision SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: is made in the Constitution for hold- We know we went there. ing the election regularly, there is acceptance by Andhra Pradesh and .,' SHRIMATi KANAK MUKHERJEE: also by Advaniji. That means, there Even without reservation,We are pro- the basic structure is not affected even viding it. We are providing equal though we bring in the Constitutional 203 Constitution (64th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 204

. [Shrimati Kanak Mukherjee] autonomous body, would make use of Opportunity to women without reser- ■ the State machinery and that the vations. So don't worry about West elections would be conducted by the Bengal. Election Commission. I do not think that this is also going to change the SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: basic structure. Here if one State does not want to provide for reservation for women, Then, the provision in "regard to what is the remedy? If it is, incor- the C&A.G. He is an independent au- ■ porated in the Constitution, I don't thority. The institution of C&A.G. is think hon. Members would object to an autonomous one. This should not it. be under the influence of the State Governments or the Central Govern- Then, he stated about devolution of ment. I would like to point out here funds or decentralisation of powers that the C&A.G. was conducting audit and that it should not be from the even in regard to the Central funds. middle stage and should start from Whatever amount we have been send- the top. For the benefit of the hon. ing from the Contingency Fund of Member, i can tell the House India, it was being audited. Now, we that so far as devolution from the are making a' provision. The objee Centre to the States with regard to tive is to see that nobody is able to funds is concerned, the're is a provi- manipulate, even the State machinery sion for setting up of a Finance Com- is not able to manipulate. Everybody mission for the States. It is already wants that the C&A.G. should be an there. Under the Constitution the're independent authority. Here also, the is no provision for a Finance Com- C.&A.G. would use the machinery of mission from the State to panchayati • the State Government. It is already raj institutions. Setting up of State there. Auditing is being done. As Finance Commission is provided in you have said, it cannot be audited the Constitution but composition and by other people. terms conditions are left to the State Government. The Central Govern- SHRI PARTVATHANENI UPEN- ment is not interfering as to who is DRA: If they ignore that report, as to be appointed for the State Finance you have done here, what will hap- Commission. It is also left to the pen? States. Now, here is an independent body and that body will look into "SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: all the aspects of the financial posi-. Hon. Member, Sh'ri Ahluwalia, read tion and how the funds should the C&A.G: report pertaining to Cen- devolve. This is very important. tral schemes, particularly, ...... SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- You said about the Election Com- DRA: Bofors. mission. You have got objection for setting up of Election Commission SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: and you say that there should be He read the report pertaining to independent Election Commission. Central schemes and the misuse by Hon. Member, Shri Upendraji, Shri States. This shows that there was. a Advaniji are correct in saying that provision earlier also in regard to there is local administration for auditing by the C&A.G. Now, this holding elections and it has been provision is being incorporated in the helped so far by the States, taking Constitution itself. the help of the Election Commission of the State. Here also, we have said You say that the basic structure is* that the Election Commission, which affected. How is it affected? This is an independent body, which is an is a State subject. We have made It 205 Constitution (64th and [16 AUG. 1989] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 , 206 very clear. Even the hon. Prime (Interruptions) The hon. Prime Minis- Minister has made it very clear that ter is implementing decentralisation we are not going to take this subject of powers. We have to keep this in from the State List to the Concurrent mind. We have to appreciate this. It List or the Union List. This conti- is for the first time that this is being nues to be in the State List and all done. For the first time it has happen- the panchayati raj institution's would ed. Are we not to appreciate the hon. be, and are, under the administrative Prime Minister for that? (Inierrup* control as well as administrative tions). I do not know whether you supervision 0f the State Government. are interested in knowing the things. I do not know why there should be Let the House decide it. What was any doubt this. happening in the past? You are re- presenting the interest of States and, Hon. Members have said that we therefore, I wish to bring it to your are not introducing anything new notice. We used to send money di- here. Take, for example, the RLEGP. rectly to the State Finance Ministry. Here, every project has to be referred They were using the money for di- from the village-level to the district fferent purposes. They were diver- administration, then to the State ad- ting it and it used to take three or ministration and finally to the Depart- four months to trickle down to dist- ment of Rural Development here. It rict level. What was the result? The has to come from the village to Delhi. result was that the money did not There was a recommendation by dis- reach district or panchayat level at trict Collectors. They said, 'Why the right time. Suppose, they take should it go to Delhi?'. The Prime three or four months. The summer Minister said, 'It should not go to is gone ,for example, in West Bengal Delhi; it should be decentralised.' or in Karnataka or in Maharashtra, He said that involvement of the' peo- then what has to be done? There we ple should be there. There will be have to make an improvement. From gram sabhas,, there will be village Delhi to Bangalore or to Bombay or assemblies. People will assemble to Lucknow it should go directly.. It there. They will, hereafter, look is going to the panchayat. No inter- into this and they will say that this mediary is there. Should the State is the priority to be given for this have some commission for taking project. People will be involved. money to that level? I do not think They will decide the things in the there should be an intermediary. village assembly and they will give the sanction. Is it not a big change? After all, the money is meant for the Is it not decentralisation? Our De- Panchayat. It could be sent direct- partment will not have any power to- ly from Delhi to that place. Audi approve. any project coming from the what is the ultimate result? The .ul- village-level through the district and timate result is efficiency in the admi- State administrations. These things nistration. Performance will be bet- will not come here. They will be ter. And for the information of the decided at the ground-level itself. This hon. Members, it is not done for the is decentralisation from the top. not first time. Under IRDP the amount only up to the State-level but even is sent directly from here to the dist- up to the ground-level. But unfor- ' ricts. Hence, there js practically tunately, some States—T can say, Op- no basis for any apprehension that we 1 position-ruled States and Congress- are going to endanger or subvert the ruled States also—do not want decen- basic structure of the Constitution. tralisation up to the ground-level. On the contrary, by these measures They want decentralisation from the Prime Minister has strengthened Delhi uo to the State-level only. They the basic structure of the pjanchayati do not want further decentralisation. institutions and urban body institu- 207 Constitution (84th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 208

[Shri Janardhan Poojari] numbers. They are going to make turns. It is not at all going to hurt use of it. More developmental acti- any person. vities will be there and ultimately in these States it will be difficult for us Hence I am telling you that we to come back. But the hon. Prime should not make an issue out of it. Minister has stated that it is not a What Mr. L. K. Advani has stated question of party it is a question of is correct. India, the Indian peoplej it is a question of the welfare of the people, it is a question of administration. Here is a SHRl LAL. K. ADVANI: I feel em- man, our Prime Minister, i can tell barrasses by this repeated reference. you, he has not acted as a politician. Either you accept my amendments, He has acted as a statesman. At or... , least for this, you should support him and say that here is a measure which SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: I is going to help the nation, which is am just telling you. At least I feel going to help the administration. And that one should be convinced of the for that purpose, all of us should una- measures taken by • the hon. Prime . nimously support it. Otherwise, I Minister for the first time.' Why I am warn you... (Interruptions) I went submitting this is, so far in the Cons- to Tamil Nadu the other day. The titution there was no provision for re- hon. Member from Tamil Nadu has servation for women. For the first stated that it will be fatal for us. Here time it has been incorporated in the I submit that I was in Tamil Nadu Constitution. Not Only that, reserva- the other day. I was attending a tion for the Scheduled Castes and function. The Chairman of the pan- Tribes in proportion to their popula- chayat was there. Without know- tion that has also been done. It is ing, the Chairman of the Panchayat your desire also. It is your wish told that meeting that their Chief Mi- also that there should be reservation nister was not opposing it. Then I for weaker sections and that the pan- said that he was opposed to it and he chayati raj institutions should be was not going to support it and it had strengthened. When it is the desire come in the papers. Then he said: of the people why should we not sup- "No, no, we are for it". Then he port this Constitution Amendment said; "You are not making a correct Bill? And you feel that the credit will statement. Our Chief Minister is go to Mr. Rajiv Gandhi. That is your supporting it". apprehension. I submit, Sir, Shri Rajiv Gandhi is the Prime Minister of SHRI V. GOPALSAMY; What is the nation, he is an institution by him- this? He is confused. He does not self. (Interruptions). Please hear know anything. (Interruptions) me. If at all by these measures you are going to get credit it is all right, but SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI: even the hon. Prime Minister has not Then the Chairman walked out from taken the interest of the Congress that meeting Saying that their Chief party according to the criticism of our Minister was supporting it and on the own Congress party leaders. For contrary I Was misleading... (inter- example, in Karnataka mandals the ruptions) majority belongs to the Janata party. In West Bengal Communist people are SHRI V. GOPALSAMY; Have you there. In Kerala Communist people read the letter of our Chief Minister are there. Our people say, the Prime to the Prime Minister? What is he Minister is going to earn the interests talking? of the party. But the money is go- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIR- ing to them and more power is given ZA IRSHADBAIG): Please sit down, to the local bodies, they are in large Mr. Oopal*aray. (Interruptions) 209 Constitution (64th and [ 16 AUG. 1989] 65th Amdt.). Bill, 1989 210

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY; These Bills tion by Mr. Shivraj Patil... (Inter- should be totally rejected by the Par- ruptions) liament. . We are very clear that we are opposed to these Bills. SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- RA: Now, the speaker should be THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI from this side. MIRZA IRSHADBAIG); Please sit THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI down, Mr. Gopalsamy. I have not al- MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): I will call lowed you... Mr; Ansari, please sit from this side also, but there will be down. a short intervention by the Minister. It is for the Chair to decide. I will 8.OO P.M. call from this side also. First I am SHRI JANARDHAN POOJARI; We calling Mr. Shivraj Patil. adore Kamraj . Kamraj had never stated that there should SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: That is not ' not be any improvement. the procedure... (Interruptions) Mr. Kamraj never stated that there THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI should not be any' improvement. If MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): It is a short there is improvement in the efficiency intervention. it would be all the better, and we are improving the system. Under SHRI DIPEN GHOSH; It is not these circumstances, I appeal to all the done like that. It should be one Members here to support these. Other- from each side. This is never done wise, it will be very, very difficult in the Rajya Sabha. for you to face the people,, your own grass root level representatives SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Is it a sepa- and, I tell you, you will be thrown rate statement he is going to make out by the electorate of the country. about his Ministry or is it on the dis- It will not support you when power cussion of the Bills? This would be is given to them—and the power is for the first time in 40 years that going to the people. For the first two Ministers are intervening! in suc- time it has happened and it will be cession. Is it dilatory tactics, deli-, appreciated by the electorate of this berate? Why? , country. Let us wait and see. You try to defeat it. We will face it. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): Not deli- SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: The Cong- berate. (Interruptions) ress is going to be routed in the next Parliamentary elections.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG); Please sit down. (.Interruptions) _ SHRI GHULAM RASOOL MATTO (Jammu and Kashmir): Sir, please adjourn the House.

SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- RA: Go on.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): Let it continue. Now there are two Ministers, Mr. Dalbir Singh and Mr. Shivraj Patil. First there will be a small interven- 211 Constitution (64th and [RAJYA SABHA] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 212

That is why I have called his name. Thereafter I will be calling from your side.

SHRI D. B. CHANDRE GOWDA: He is a speaker himself. Let him say. ,

Let it be clear.

SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- RA: Let it be frank.

SHRl V. GOPALSAMY: The Trea- sury Benches are totally -empty.

SHRl GURUDAS DAS GUPTA: How long can we sit? Chaturananji, please wait.. .., (Interruptions)... How long should we sit? We cannot sit late into the night. Please sit, down, don't speak, Mr. Chaturanan Mishra. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Why are ... (Interruptions)... What is the the Treasury Benches empty? time now? It is already eight o'clock. SHRI PARVATHANENi UPEND- Have you arranged dinner for us? RA: No, Mr. Vice-Chairman. It Is not It is already eight o'clock in the the number of speakers, it is the num night.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): It is up to the House to decide. 213 Constitution (64th and [ 16 AUG. 1989 ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 214 ber of hours. Sixteen hours have PROF. C.. LAKSHMANNA: Let been allotted. How many hours are us know about it from the Parliament- left? ary Affairs Minister. Let him state clearly when the reply will be there, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHE! when the voting will take place. The MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): How many decisions are not taken in an ad-hoc hours have we finished? manner like this. We want to know SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- what the thinking of' the Ministry, RA: We have already finished about the Government is. Let the Parlia- 8 hours. mentary Affairs Minister tell us about it. He is sitting there. Let him THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI state when the reply is coming and MIRZA IRSHADBAIG); Still there when the voting is coming. are many more hours. SHRI SHIVRAJ PATIL On behalf SHRi PARVATHANENI UPEND- of the Government... RA: Let them tell us now whether they are going to finish It on Friday SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- or not. RA; You extended the session for three days. Why are you dragging THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI . your feet today? MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): At an ap- propriate time the Parliamentary Af- PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: Let him fairs Minister will tell us. (Interrup- say when the reply will be there. ■ tions) Then - we will sit. We do not mind siting the whole night. That is not SHRI PARVATHANENI UpEND- the question. Let us have a purpose. RA: If they are not serious,-let them tell us. But they "cannot play with SHRI SHIVRAJ PATIL: Sir, on be- the House and the Members like half of the Government, we leave this. it to the Chair, how the proceedings of the House should be conducted, for how much time we have to sit. We are ready to abide by' any decision SHRI PARVATHANENI' UPEND- given by the Chair. RA: You have extended the session by three days to consider the Bills. How can you drag your feet today? SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEND- (Interruptions) You have to come out RAr What is your intention? Do you want, to finish the Bills or not? You with your statement that you are not categorically -answer whether you serious. The blame will be On you, want to finish these Bills or not. not on us.' (Interruptions} (Interruptions)

PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA: Mr. SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: Mr. Vice- Vice-Chairman Sir, I am on a point of Chairman, 16 hours have been allott- order. ed for discussion on these two Amend- ment Bills'. We have spent in the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI meantime three-and-a-half hours the, MIRZA* IRSHADBAIG): Please sit day-before-yesterday and almost an- down, (interruptions) other three-and-a-half hours,, four hours today by this time. That come ■ SHRi PARVATHANENI UPEND- to seven-and-a-half hours or eight RA: We are ready to sit to com- hours. So another eight hours or plete this. Why are they running aw- nine hours are still there. ay? (Interruptions) SHRI CHATURANAN MISHRA! I want to know one thing. 215 Constitution (64th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 216

SHRI DIPEN GHOSH; Listen I am going to say this.. In the Busi- ness Advisory Committee when it was discussed whether it will be for 3 days or four days, as Mr. Chaturanan Mish. ra was saying, Chairman replied that it was for sixteen hours, not days. That was categorically said. You are aware of that. You were also present in that meeting. So, today we " can complete it. We can sit here for another seven hours or eight hours and complete the discussion. Will the Prime Minister come at four o'clock or three o'clock tomorrow morning to reply to it? Let the voting be started oh Friday. We want to know this. We are inclined to sit overnight here today and to complete the discussion so that on Friday morning at eleven o'clock you can just start taking votes. We want to PROF: C. LAKSHMANNA; The know about this from the Govern- Minister has stated nothing. We have ment. We have an apprehension that made it very clear that we are pre- the Government wants to run away pared to discuss it for another eight from the voting because it does not hours also, provided the Government, have the two-thirds majority. (In. comes forward and makes a statement terruptioris) that on Friday at ll o'clock there SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: That will be a reply by the Prime Minister day you ran away. and then there will be voting. If it is not done... (Interruptions) Let SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: All right. the Minister say categorically what I take that they are not running aw- the position.is. ay, but let them say that on Friday at what hour the Prime Minister will reply and voting will start. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Their position is very precarious.

SHRI K. G. MAHESWARAPPA (Karnataka): Let here be a statement from the Government side. (In- terruptions)

SHRI M.. S. GURUPADASWAMY: May I make a submission, Sir? I just want to add to what my colleagues have already said. The Prime Minis- ter had said the other day while he 217 Constitution (64th and [16 AUG. 1989] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 218 was introducing the Bills that he would reply to the debate. It is on- record. The debate has to end and the Bills have got to be voted on Friday. The Prime Minister has got a programme in Karnataka on Friday. This is my understanding. He has already fixed his programme in Karnataka .for the whole day On Friday. We want to know whether he is going to reply to the debate on Friday if the Bills have to be vated on that day. We want to know whether he is going to reply to the debate on Friday, if the Bills have to be voted on that day. We are not aware... (Interruptions)... We want to know.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): I have already asked the Parliamentary Affairs Minister and he has already given the reply... (Interruptions)

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Mr. Bhagat has come.

SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- DRA: Mr. Bhagat, we want to know^ whether you want to proceed with these Bills or you want to run away.... (Interruptions)...

THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMEN- TARY AFFAIRS AND THE MINIS- TER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING (SHRI H. K. L. SHRI N. E. BALARAM: Let them BHAGAT): We never run away like say when he is going to reply to the you, number one. Number two, the debate. debate has been fixed for 16 hours and many Members wish to speak. Now SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- the debate has to take place for 16 DRA; It suits theme either way. Let hours and you know for how many them decide whatever they want. If hours the House has debated these they want to proceed with it, let them Bills so far. Some can speak on Fri- proceed with that. If they do not day also. We will take a decision want to proceed with it, they can run only after the debate is completed... away. (Interruptions)... 219 Constitution (64th and [ RAJYA SABHA ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1989 220

' PROF. C. LAKSHMANNA; That is for completing the debate tonight. It not the rule. cannot be done and it should not he done. (Interruptions) ... SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOW- DHURY: We have no intention of SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: Are you pre- running away... (Interruptions). You pared to sit overnight today and are under misconception of running complete the 16 hours' debate? (In- away, We don't organise running terruptions) away for the country, from the country and before the country. We don't SHRI H. K. L., BHAGAT; Shall I do it. remind you of all your arguments to which I relented? I relented to all your SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT: Madam, arguments... (Interruption).. . I respect you more than I respect... (Interruptions) SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: Mr. Vice Chairman, Sir, what I have under- SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. Vice, stood from the statement of the Chairman, Sir, I am happy that Mr. Minister is. that as soon as 16 hours Bhagat is here. If I were to sum up debate is completed, the Prme Minis- the discussion that has taken place ter will reply. So, my question is... just now on so far as these Bills are (Interruptions)... concerned, from this side apprehen- sions have been expressed that per- SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Sir,'... haps the Government does not want (Interruptions)... to complete the discussion on the Bills on Friday. THE . VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): No, I have SOME HON. MEMBERS; Why? called Mr. Pawan Kumar Bansal.

SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: I said it is SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL an apprehension. It may be absolutely (Punjab): Sir, just as an ordinary unfounded. Therefore, a suggestion Member of the House, I want to make was given from my side that So far as a submission that we all want to parti- Opposition is concerned, we are will- cipate in this important discussion. On ing to sit the whole night to complete Monday, we wanted the discussion to the sixteen hours. This is an Opposi- go 6n but our hon. friends on the tion suggestion that we are willing to other side did not want to sit even ten sit the whole night to get the discus- minutes beyond 6 o'clock So, we wan- sion on the Bills completed. We would ted half an hour on the procedural only like" to know from the Parliamen- wrangles only. As Members, we would tary Affairs Minister at what time the like to participate in the discussion Prime Minister is going to reply to the even if it has to be extended or till debate. whatever time the debate has to go on. And what happened today? Who SHRI H. K. L. BHAGAT; The Prime were the people who wasted the time Minister .will reply when the debate is over. Sir, now Mr. Lal K. Advani of the House? I do not want to use is expressing an apprehension that the that word. (Interruption). debate may not be over by Friday. I SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- have also a feeling that a large num- DRA; Haji Mastan... (Interruptions). ber of people are speaking and more people want to speak. As I said? 87 to 89 people sspoke in Lok Sabha. So, SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL: therefore, we ean take stock of the Sir, the Government is sincere about position again on Friday morning. it. We are all concerned about it. The Business Advisory Committee can SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Sir, Mr. meet. (Interruptions).. No, no. What- Advani sought a specific clarification ever your view may be, we are not whether the Prime Minister will come 221 Constitution (64th and [16 AUG. 1989 ] 65th Amdt.) Bill, 1988 222

hare on Friday to reply to the debate. For that, Mr. H- K. L. Bhagat did not say anything. So, I would like to know from Mr. Bhagat what is his answer. (.Interruptions)... THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI MIRZA IRSHADBAIG): He has already replied... (Interruptions) » ...... ^ v • ■ \ ...... / • • • Mr. Advani Ji is suggesting putting SHRi H. K. L. BHAGAT: It has his own interpretation of what I have happened not because of time. The said. I do not agree with his inter- House has taken more time sometimes pretation. But I think, Mr. Advani Ji than the time allotted. If the House is suggesting in that case, Chaturanan wants to 'debate more ultimately, Mishra can speak on Friday as a there will be more debate. (In- first speaker. I have no objection. Let terruptions) . Why not? the House be adjourned.

You should have participated the other day. I requested all of you to sit but you were not prepared to. sit half an hour on this issue and today what you are doing is only a drama. (Interruptions).. .1 know how clear you are. i surrendered to your opinion. The other day you said, no, no; -we do not want to sit. SHRI PARVATHANENI UPEN- DRA: Today, at.2 o'clock, we told Mr. Bhajan Lal that we are prepared to sit late hours. (Interruptions)... The House then adjourned at twenty-five minutes past eight of the clock till eleven of the clock on Friday, the 18th August, 1989.