Regional Oral History Office University of California the Bancroft Library Berkeley, California

Regional Oral History Office University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California

Albert S. Dutra, Jr.: An Oral History

Interviews conducted by Don Warrin in 2014

Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well-informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable.

*********************************

All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents of the University of California and Albert S. Dutra dated September 11, 2014. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/collections/cite.html

It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:

Albert S. Dutra “Albert S. Dutra: An Oral History” conducted by Don Warrin in 2014, Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2014.

iii

Albert Dutra

Albert S. Dutra Introduction by Don Warrin

This interview with Al Dutra was conducted in two sessions in January, 2014. He begins by discussing his Azorean roots and the family’s later settlement in New Bedford, Massachusetts. We learn of his childhood spent there and then the move to the Bay Area. Al discusses his education through college, his service in the Air Force and his career at IBM. Soon after retiring he became increasingly engaged in the local Portuguese community, leading tours with his wife Ginny to the Azores, and taking an active role in several local Portuguese organizations. Particular detail is given to the many books published by Portuguese Heritage Publications of San Jose.

Table of Contents—Albert S. Dutra

Interview 1: January 22, 2014

Audio File 1 1

He discusses his Azorean roots, his parents and grandparents—The family’s settling in New Bedford—Growing up in a mill town—Witnessing a matança— Family move to California to live with relatives—Father’s work at Kaiser Shipyards

Audio File 2 18

Schooling in California vs. New Bedford—Contacts with the greater Portuguese community—High school and university experiences—ROTC—Interest in sports—Boxing for UC Berkeley—Service in the Air Force in the 1950s— Meeting Ginny and marriage—To work as marketing rep at IBM—IBM’s evolution from mainframe to desktop—Role of Bill Gates in designing PC operating system—1981 trip to Portugal—Establishment of tours to the Azores

Interview 2: January 29, 2014

Audio File 3 37

Ginny as travel agent—Visit to the Azores after 1981 earthquake—Since 1982 over 70 tours conducted by the two—Reconnection with the Portuguese community after retirement—San Jose: POSSO, Portuguese Chamber of Commerce, Portuguese Heritage Society of California, Portuguese Historical Museum, San Jose State University—Luso-American Education Foundation and the Dia de Portugal—Discussion of post-Capelinhos and renewed immigration— Portuguese Heritage Publications and its various publications

Audio File 4 56

Leaders of Portuguese Heritage Publications—Publication categories and products—Madeira Exiles—Immigrant oral history project—The idea of “going back” 1

Interview #1 January 22, 2014 [Audio File 1]

01-00:00:00 Warrin: So this is January 22nd. We’re in the home of Al Dutra in Mountain View, and this is Don Warrin, and we’re ready to start our interview. Al, could you give me your full name?

01-00:00:21 Dutra: Sure. My name is Albert Silveira Dutra, Jr.

01-00:00:28 Warrin: And where were you born?

01-00:00:30 Dutra: I was born in New Bedford, Massachusetts.

01-00:00:32 Warrin: And when?

01-00:00:34 Dutra: When was April 5th, 1931.

01-00:00:39 Warrin: And your parents were?

01-00:00:43 Dutra: My parents were Albert Silvia Dutra and Alzira, the Portuguese name for Elsie, Alzira Fernandes Dutra.

01-00:00:57 Warrin: And what about their parents? Can you go back a little bit?

01-00:01:00 Dutra: Sure. Sure, I can do that. On the paternal side, my grandfather was José Silveira Dutra, and he was born in Feteira Faial in 1865. His wife, who he married in United States, was Angelica Da Glória, and the last name was Alves. And she was born in Lajes do Pico in the Azores.

01-00:01:49 Warrin: So they were from the western Azores, from Faial and—

01-00:01:54 Dutra: That’s right. I call them the central group.

01-00:01:59 Warrin: That’s right. And any other relatives you want to mention and—?

01-00:02:06 Dutra: Well, on my mother’s side, my grandfather was Manuel Fernandez Teixeira, and he was born in Terceira, the island of Terceira. And his wife, who he

married in Terceira, was Maria da Conceição Marques, M-A-R-Q-U-E-S, Marques. And she was born in 1886, and he was born in 1884.

01-00:02:43 Warrin: And what was his occupation?

01-00:02:45 Dutra: When he came to the United States, he started to work in one of the factories in the New Bedford area, a shoemaking kind of factory, and then he gradually opened a store of his own, a shoe repair shop, that was then his way of making a living throughout the rest of his life.

01-00:03:10 Warrin: So then who exactly emigrated to this country? Which of your family?

01-00:03:17 Dutra: Okay. The emigration pattern was such that, again, on my father’s side it was my grandfather. He emigrated to New Bedford, and my paternal grandmother, she also emigrated to New Bedford separately. She was fourteen years old when she emigrated, so—

01-00:03:44 Warrin: Did she come by herself?

01-00:03:46 Dutra: That’s my understanding, but she definitely had relatives in New Bedford at the time.

01-00:03:53 Warrin: So she came and probably started to work right away.

01-00:03:56 Dutra: Yes, she did; and then got married just two years later, she and my grandfather. So she got married at the age of sixteen.

01-00:04:07 Warrin: Was she working at a textile factory there?

01-00:04:10 Dutra: I assume so. I don’t know that for sure, but I assume that was the case. Once they got married, they started their family pretty much immediately. And so when she passed away during the Spanish flu in 1918, at that time they had sixteen children.

01-00:04:38 Warrin: Sixteen children.

01-00:04:39 Dutra: Sixteen children.

01-00:04:40 Warrin: And how old was she when she died?

01-00:04:43 Dutra: Well, she was forty-seven when she died, so they must’ve just had the children almost annually. The children were twelve girls and four boys, and the boys were intermixed among the girls. The oldest was a girl, and my dad was the youngest of the boys, and he had two younger sisters in the family.

01-00:05:16 Warrin: And what happened after their mother died there? Some of them were probably still young.

01-00:05:23 Dutra: Very young. Yeah, that was really the case. What my grandfather did is a number of my aunts were already adults. They were already working in the textile industry as just regular employees, and my grandfather decided that he would build a house for the younger members of the family, and the single daughters that were still around, and so he did that. He started to build a house with some help from some of my dad’s brothers. My dad being ten at the time, he and his two sisters went into an orphanage for a short period of time, because my grandfather was unable to put the children in the other family members’ homes. And so that was a vivid memory for my dad of being in the orphanage for a period of time, and that was probably a year or so.

01-00:06:33 Warrin: How old would he have been?

01-00:06:36 Dutra: He would’ve been, I think it was about ten at that time. Yes, he was about ten at that time, and his sisters were somewhat younger than he. But he remembers that every Sunday that his dad would come to the orphanage and visit with them, and bring them fruit and that type of thing. And so he always had a very positive and strong relationship with his dad.

01-00:07:04 Warrin: That’s good. So some of the older children probably started to work young.

01-00:07:11 Dutra: Exactly, exactly. The oldest sister was already married, and, in fact, one of her children served as the best man in my dad’s wedding. The age difference was such that they were more cousins than uncle and nephew, that type of thing. And so I think it’s worth understanding a little bit about New Bedford, and if at some point you want me to reminisce in terms of my perspective I can do that. So anyway, as far as my father’s side of the family, that’s the way the pattern started. My grandfather worked in the mills, manual labor, but was also a fisherman. And his nickname, because there were so many Zé Joe Dutras in the area, [laughter] his nickname was Zé Abrótea, abrótea being a type of whiting fish that is found in the Azores, so—

01-00:08:25 Warrin: That’s interesting.

01-00:08:26 Dutra: Yeah, so in the neighborhood he was known more by Zé Abrotea than either Zé Silveira or Zé Dutra. Now, on my mother’s side, my grandfather, Manuel, married in Terceira, and then he and his wife came to the United States. They had two children while they were in the United States, but she became ill while the children were very young. She had either tuberculosis or some lung disease. And so they felt that if they moved back to the Azores—because obviously the weather overall is so much better in the Azores than it is in the East Coast of the United States—that perhaps that would help her recover. So they did, and they moved in with my great-grandparents. He was a policeman, and she was a domestic. She worked for one of the more prominent citizens in the area of Angra in Terceira. So my great-grandparents had two daughters at home, and so when my grandparents moved back they added four people to a house that was, I think, probably the size of my front room and the family room. Yeah, so it was that kind of thing. My mother’s memories of that were very positive. Her grandfather was a policeman and really spoiled the girls, from the viewpoint of my mother. And they would go to school, and he’d give them a piece of candy and that kind of thing. And so here her grandmother was faced— Well, then the other part of the story: My mom’s mother died. Her father went back to the United States. And so that period of time her grandfather and grandmother had four girls in the house, two of their children and my mother and my aunt. Then unfortunately grandfather Teixeira died unexpectedly of food poisoning.

01-00:11:05 Warrin: Where was your mother born?

01-00:11:06 Dutra: She was born in Taunton, in Massachusetts.

01-00:11:12 Warrin: But then moved back—

01-00:11:13 Dutra: Went to the Azores when she was one or two years old, and then when her mother passed away and her father went back to New Bedford, he eventually remarried. Then he wanted to, of course, reunite his family. And isn’t this the typical immigrant kind of story? It really is. Because what he did then, he arranged to have his mother, his two sisters, and his children all come to the United States. And so here he was as a newlywed, and he brought all of these people into his household. And it was tough, because his new wife very much wanted the girls to bond with her, and yet they, in effect, were calling their grandmother mãe [mother]. She was like a mother. They didn’t know that, and so that caused friction, and at some point my great-grandmother and her two daughters moved to another house, and—

01-00:12:31 Warrin: Originally they had been all—

01-00:12:34 Dutra: All in one, yeah. And that always amazes me. You’ve been in New Bedford, and you’ve seen the typical tenement houses. And so they were living in a tenement house.

01-00:12:44 Warrin: The three-story—

01-00:12:44 Dutra: Yeah, that’s right, three-story tenement house. It would generally have the front room that they kept closed, because they only want to use it for funerals and to have the good mothball smell in that area, and two bedrooms, and then a large room that was, in effect, the eating area, where the stove was and all that, and then the pantry and the toilet. That was the whole thing. And so they managed to have families like that live together in places like that. So that was the net event in terms of the family. My dad then grew up living in his father’s house with some of his sisters and his brothers at times. My mother was living with her father and her stepmother and her sister, and when she reached a certain age she went to work in the textile mills, like everybody else did. And—

01-00:13:49 Warrin: Most people dropped out of school by fourteen.

01-00:13:54 Dutra: Exactly, exactly.

01-00:13:55 Warrin: I think they had to go to school until fourteen, but I’m not sure that that was respected, either. And you see kids that are nine and ten years old or twelve years old working in those textile mills.

01-00:14:10 Dutra: Yeah, absolutely. I know you’ve read and I’ve read a number of books that talk about that and show very young people working in the textile mills. And at that time it could be a six-day week. At some point it was a ten-hour day. Sometimes, when things got good, they’d get a half a day off on Saturday and then all day Sunday. And the wages were not good at all. Yeah. I can express one of the experiences that shows the growing up experience was when my dad and my mom met, it was in the late 1920s, the start of the Depression, that type of thing. And also in that period of time the textile industry was overproducing, and also the newer mills were being built in the South. And so the situation was that the textile mills could not agree on ways of reducing production, and so they continued to produce. And in order to continue to make a profit, the one area that they cut back on was the wages of people that were living on the margin at that time. And, again, there’s many things. There’s a book that I have. It was called The Strike of 1928, and that was one where the day after Easter the mills jointly announced they were going to do a

10 percent wage cut for all their employees. And the employees said no. Even though they were not very well organized, they went on strike.

01-00:16:07 Warrin: Yeah, at some point—I don’t know whether it was that strike, but the Portuguese had a large role in one of the major strikes.

01-00:16:17 Dutra: Yes. There was one in ’26 and there was one in ’28, and it was the ’28 one— yeah, the Portuguese had a large role in that particular strike. And, again, there’s a book called The Strike of 1928.

01-00:16:31 Warrin: Right. And did they succeed at all?

01-00:16:35 Dutra: They were on strike for six months, and they went back to work with a wage cut. I think it was the 10 percent, but I read somewhere else that they only took a 5 percent cut, after six months of being on strike. And the strike pretty much broke the unions, and one of the major union groups were the Communists at that time, because they were very strong in the labor movement in the United States. But they ended up pretty much breaking the unions at that time. Sidebar—here’s the kind of things that make things interesting—as I was growing up my dad had a boat called The Lucky Strike, and as a kid I thought, now, why is my dad naming a boat after a cigarette company? And—

01-00:17:36 Warrin: That wasn’t true.

01-00:17:36 Dutra: That wasn’t true, because what happened was that he and his dad and his brother built a catboat, a fishing boat, during the period of time they were on strike. In fact, they built the frame of the boat in the basement of the house, and then took it apart, put it outside, and then finished the boat outside.

01-00:17:59 Warrin: And did they have a chance to earn some money from this sailboat?

01-00:18:03 Dutra: Yes. Yes, after my grandfather died in 1935, my dad was given the ownership of the boat, and his brothers were not living in New Bedford anymore, and the sisters weren’t that interested, so he had that Lucky Strike. And I remember going on the Lucky Strike as a kid, you know, the motor smelling of grease and gasoline, normally getting sick on every trip that I took with him on the boat. Again, I’m going to go one more sidebar, if this is okay. There was a huge hurricane in New Bedford in 1937, just the East Coast. It was just a huge— We lived on Gosnold Street, which half a block away was the entrance gate to the Gosnold Mill, and my dad was a second hand. He was a second- level manager at the Gosnold Mill. And I remember with the hurricane that

the water started to appear. Because it was a slope towards the ocean, the water started to appear coming in through the mill, towards the street that we lived on. And my dad’s boat was out there in the bay, and—

01-00:19:41 Warrin: But it survived.

01-00:19:42 Dutra: It broke loose. It broke loose. And it—

01-00:19:46 Warrin: That was probably fortunate.

01-00:19:48 Dutra: Well, it wouldn’t have been, because what it did then, it drifted to the breakwaters, you know, the stone walls. And just about the time it got to the breakwaters, a huge wave lifted it up over the breakwaters, and the mast got stuck between some sort of utility lines that were there, and it floated the rest of the hurricane in that area.

01-00:20:19 Warrin: Well, that’s some luck!

01-00:20:22 Dutra: Yeah, isn’t that great? Isn’t that great? So your reaction is the same as mine: wow, what great luck! My dad when he found the boat was still in good shape—there was actually a picture of it in the newspaper—the next day he went down to look at the boat, and vandals had taken all of the things of value from the boat. And he was so frustrated, he just gave up the boat. He just gave it up. But anyway, we went back a few steps here, but that, I think, gives some indication of the difficulty of life in the New Bedford area. And at some point I can tell you a little bit about the few memories that I have.

01-00:21:11 Warrin: Yeah, well, we can certainly get to your story. You were born in 1931, right after the beginning of the Depression, and you had siblings?

01-00:21:35 Dutra: Yes. At that time there was myself and my brother David, who is a year and a half younger than I. So when we were in New Bedford there were just two boys in the family.

01-00:21:47 Warrin: And so what are your first memories of—

01-00:21:51 Dutra: Well, the memories, some of them are vague, and some of them are reinforced by my parents’ photo albums. But the memories that I have were starting school in New Bedford, and I went to the John B. Duvall’s Elementary School, that was two mills down from where we lived on Gosnold Street. And

it was sort of an ugly brick building, and there was no landscaping around it, so it sort of had this dreary kind of aspect to it. And I don’t remember much about the classes, except that one thing was that when we were addressed by our teachers we would have to stand up and say, “Yes, ma’am,” “No, ma’am,” or “Yes, sir,” “No, sir,” that kind of thing. So it was very formal.

01-00:22:53 Warrin: What did you wear to school?

01-00:22:56 Dutra: In the springtime I would wear either short pants or knickers, so at that point long pants were another thing, but short pants or knickers were something that you— There was no uniform as such. It was a public school. There was no real uniform. So, yeah, that was the informal kind of thing. Next to the school was a park, and it was Ashley Park. And my memory of that was that it was just a dirt area with a big rock outcropping in the area. It was not as you think about parks today, with beautiful green grass and that. And I went online to look at the park in anticipation of our getting together, and today it has a baseball field, and it has green area and that kind of thing, so it’s much more attractive.

01-00:24:03 Warrin: It was just a wild area.

01-00:24:04 Dutra: That’s right. It was just a wild area. And then on the other side of the school was Our Lady of Mt. Carmel church, and it was a Portuguese church. It had a dark exterior, so I get a sense of that whole area as being sort of dark as a kid. But we had catechism in the basement of the church, and the catechism was in Portuguese. And so when I was preparing for my first communion, which I didn’t take in Massachusetts but out in California; but when I was preparing for my first communion all those instructions were in Portuguese. So they expected that the kids of my generation were fluent in Portuguese. And I spoke Portuguese because of my grandparents and that kind of thing, but I certainly wasn’t as fluent as some of the other kids that just spoke Portuguese, because we spoke English at home.

01-00:25:09 Warrin: Your parents both spoke English.

01-00:25:12 Dutra: At home, yeah. That was the interesting thing: we spoke English at home, and then with the greater family we spoke Portuguese, and that as the same thing when we moved to California, English at home and then the greater family was in Portuguese. But in one of the practice sessions before communion I misunderstood how you should receive the Eucharist, and what I understood was don’t let it touch your tongue. So, of course, the opposite is what they were saying, and so when I got it I immediately, with my hands in the prayer position, heading back for my seat, I was happily chewing [laughter] the

Eucharist. And, of course, the nun very nicely told me that’s not the way it’s done. But those are the kind of experiences you remember as a kid, that kind of thing. So the summers were great in that my paternal grandfather, José Abrótea, had a fishing shack on the Clark’s Cove, and it was a ten, fifteen- minute walk from our house, and so we spent a lot of time in the summer at the beach playing in the water, that type of thing. So those were very positive memories. Yeah, yeah.

01-00:26:45 Warrin: That is nice. Of your school and your neighborhood, what percentage of the students were Portuguese?

01-00:26:53 Dutra: I don’t know the exact percentage, but my assessment would be that it was 60, 70, 80 percent, because it tended to be that there were areas where the Portuguese settled. The groups that were in New Bedford were the French Canadians that worked there, the Polish, the Irish, the English, and the Portuguese. And they tended to live in the various areas of New Bedford, so it was that way. And they tended to marry within the ethnic group. My—

01-00:27:39 Warrin: They were physically separated, except when they worked or went to school.

01-00:27:45 Dutra: Sure, exactly.

01-00:27:47 Warrin: And I believe there were a lot of French Canadians.

01-00:27:49 Dutra: Yes, yes, there were. In fact, the French Canadians and the English tended to have the more prestigious jobs, and they were more the men that worked in those jobs, and, for example, in the strike of 1928 they had already had an affiliation or a federation of people, and they tended to keep the other ethnic groups out of the opportunities to move into those jobs. So there was clearly ethnic distinctions. To my knowledge, of all of my aunts only one did not marry someone who was Portuguese, and she married an Irishman who, of course, the family said was a drunkard. [laughter]

01-00:28:48 Warrin: So there were ethnic distinctions, some prejudice. What about the level of education? I would assume the English had a better education, but the French Canadians, would they have been better educated than the Portuguese?

01-00:29:07 Dutra: I honestly don’t know. I honestly don’t know. The Portuguese in general, of course, did not complete their high school, as you pointed out, and they tended to have their own clubs. All of those kind of things were within the ethnic group. But at that age, as a kid, I had no sense of that distinction.

01-00:29:39 Warrin: And what was your sense of the Azores at that time? You hadn’t been there. You would’ve heard about it.

01-00:29:47 Dutra: It was pretty much zero. It was the fact that I knew my mother lived there at some time, and that was about it. If you’d asked me, for example, how many islands there were, or what island she was from at that time, I just didn’t know.

01-00:30:06 Warrin: So you went through primary school.

01-00:30:14 Dutra: Well, actually, yeah. I did not complete primary school in New Bedford. We moved before I left—what you call primary, I just call elementary school.

01-00:30:24 Warrin: Elementary

01-00:30:25 Dutra: Yeah. And before we completed the elementary school we moved to California, and I went to finish my elementary school in East Oakland.

01-00:30:38 Warrin: And why did your family move to California?

01-00:30:43 Dutra: It was just the opportunity. It was the prospect of really being able to live a more comfortable life in New Bedford just didn’t seem to be there. And—

01-00:31:01 Warrin: Well, before we leave New Bedford, is there anything else that you would like to mention about life in New Bedford?

01-00:31:09 Dutra: Well, yeah, just there are things that stand out. One of the things that stood out was that at one home that we lived in before Gosnold Street the man next door was Portuguese, and he had a matança [butchering]. And, of course, that was something I’d never seen before or heard about. Now, when I saw the pig it had already been slaughtered, and it was hanging up, and my parents were participating in preparing the meats and that kind of thing.

01-00:31:40 Warrin: Where did he actually physically have it?

01-00:31:43 Dutra: He had it in his basement.

01-00:31:45 Warrin: In his basement.

01-00:31:45 Dutra: In his basement, yeah. And so they hung up the pig, and the ladies were sitting around, and they were stuffing the linguiça sausage, and doing all the things that they were doing. But for me, of course, that, again, was one of those amazing things. I had never thought about where pork chops came from. Here the guy next door was doing the pork chops, so—

01-00:32:10 Warrin: And matança is a little bit more than simply killing the pig. There’s a ritual.

01-00:32:16 Dutra: Oh, yes.

01-00:32:17 Warrin: Could you describe that a bit?

01-00:32:19 Dutra: Yeah, I would really describe it more from my current knowledge than the other knowledge. The only thing I really knew was my mom and dad were helping out. They brought me there. Neighbors were all sitting around, and they were doing various things to prepare the pig. Now, having been to the Azores a number of times, I’ve witnessed the complete cycle of a matança, and there’s also a videotape, because the Azorean government wants to preserve that history of that culture. And so I’ve been to places where— I’ve not seen the pig killed. The timing was such, but I’ve seen it from that point on, where people would burn off the hair from the pig, and then start cutting it up, and all that kind of thing. I’ve seen them making the linguiça, and in one instance once they stuffed the sausage they’d squeeze it and juices would squirt out. [laughter] So the people who would be concerned about health would’ve probably raised their eyebrows if they’d seen the way they still do it with killing the pig, yeah. Again, jumping ahead, one side story is one year in Terceira, during Sanjoaninas [non-religious Azorean festival], one of the ethnic groups replicated a matança, and what they did is they brought a pig in, and they had the pig in the cart. They then pulled the pig out to put the pig on the bench, and now I know what the squealing like a stuck pig sounds like, because the pig was just absolutely— But they didn’t kill the pig in the sight of the children. And then they put the pig back, and then they had another pig hanging up. But it was just an example that even there, the knowledge of the process is slowly being, if you will, whitewashed there. But yeah, so from a standpoint of the matança there, I just really saw a small piece of it, but it was one of those things that stuck in my mind. Yeah, the other thing that stuck in my mind was that we lived on Gosnold Street, and that was in a series of bungalows that had been built for the supervisors of the Gosnold Mill, when the mill was first established. So the cottages were built in the 1800s, and they were attractive cottages, but they were sold off at some point. You know, the company housing was just sold off. And we were renters in that. And the house was a cute little house, but it had no bathtub. And so we had the big

copper tub, and we would take our baths in the copper tub once a week, that type of thing. So it was a throwback to some of the earlier ways.

01-00:35:46 Warrin: But because your father had moved up to be a supervisor at some level, you didn’t have to live in one of these three-story tenement houses?

01-00:36:00 Dutra: That’s right, that’s right. That’s right. I did not live in— I lived in my grandfather’s house for a period of time after he passed away, and two of the sisters were living there, and my dad said that he’d help out by moving there, and that was a two-story house. So that was one. The second house was just a regular house, next door to the man who killed the pig. And then the third was the cottage. But my cousin, who I was very close to, lived in the tenement house. And my dad recalls the fact that in the earlier days the tenement houses did not have bathrooms on each of the floors, that there was one bathroom in the basement. So if you had the GIs, you really had some challenges to get down there before there was a disaster. So it certainly was basic living.

01-00:37:06 Warrin: Yeah, I can imagine. And so coming out to California must’ve been a shock.

01-00:37:16 Dutra: Great joy. It was a great joy. My parents, when they talked about it—and my parents were always positive in terms of how things were. If they had a tough time, I certainly didn’t know about it as a child. No, I never felt that we were either deprived or poor. No, we were just a family that got along. It was that kind of thing. And so the move to California was—here we’re going to have this whole new experience, and so my brother and I were just looking forward to it. My folks pretty much sold everything they had, and we took a bus to California.

01-00:38:03 Warrin: You came all the way on a bus.

01-00:38:05 Dutra: Yes, all the way on a bus.

01-00:38:07 Warrin: Greyhound?

01-00:38:07 Dutra: Yeah, Greyhound bus all the way to California. And, again, a few memories there. One of them, again, big important shock is my folks bought me a couple of comic books to read along the way, and when we changed buses at some point I left the comic books up in the rack. I was heartbroken, right? You know, because I didn’t get comic books that often. The other thing was that I was told that my aunt Martina had a store, and I thought, this is great. She’s got a store, and she probably will give me candy and all that stuff. What a great thing that will be! And so we got out here, and I found out that the store

she had was a cleaner establishment, so what she did was, of course, clean people’s clothes. She didn’t do it; she just distributed it. So that was sort of a disappointment. The other thing was we lived in East Oakland. My great- uncle and great-aunt lived on 97th Avenue, a block and a half from what was then East 14th Street. And at that time, as you know, the districts were very identifiable districts. That was called the Elmhurst District. I don’t know if it’s still called the Elmhurst District or not. But so a block away from where I lived there was Mr. Allen’s drug store. There was a movie theater that just closed, but there was another movie theater a few blocks away. So a little drug store. There was an Italian grocery store. There was a Japanese grocery store. There was a barbershop. And there was a shoe store. And there was a five- and-dime. And there was a Safeway. And there was a Hogstrom’s Food Store. And when I was growing up in New Bedford on Gosnold Street, the only thing I ever saw was the front of the Gosnold Mill. Yeah, so this was, wow, you know?

01-00:40:25 Warrin: You were in the big city.

01-00:40:26 Dutra: That’s right! That’s right. Wow, that was such a joy. And the other thing was—and I don’t know why I remembered it—my great-uncle had a lawn, and in it he had clover, and there were bees. And I’d never remembered in New Bedford seeing clover or bees. And as a—

01-00:40:50 Warrin: As a child.

01-00:40:52 Dutra: Yeah, as a kid I was just fascinated by the fact—seeing the bees, and seeing them taking the pollen from the clover, and that kind of thing.

01-00:41:03 Warrin: OK, well, downtown New Bedford wouldn’t have had a lot of grass or anything like that.

01-00:41:09 Dutra: That’s right, and because of the harsh winters and things like that. So I didn’t think of the subtleties, but that was one of those wows. And my great-uncle’s house, he had a chicken coop in the back and had chickens, and it was a new experience, and it was a positive one.

01-00:41:33 Warrin: Now, your father wouldn’t have just gotten your family on a bus and sold everything off without having some definite plan for coming to California. How did that come about?

01-00:41:49 Dutra: Yeah. The way it came about was because of my mother’s side of the family. Typical of the closeness of the Portuguese family, when my parents made

inquiries about moving to California, their first reaction was, “We’ll help you any way we can, and you can live with us until you get yourself settled.” It was just that straightforward. And my dad said to his dying day that he so appreciated and loved the great outpouring that came from their side of the family, the inconveniences that they suffered in order to take us in. And I—

01-00:42:49 Warrin: And so these were close relatives of your mother who had already settled in California.

01-00:42:59 Dutra: Yes, that’s right, relatives that had already settled in California. My great- uncle Jack had, as a fourteen-year-old boy, come to California because he had an uncle in San Francisco who was a barber, and so he’d been there since he was fourteen, and he had a little, out of the back of his truck, plumbing business. And so he’d been settled there. He had been married, had two children, was divorced. And one of his sons, the younger, was a teenager and was living at home. My aunt Martina, who had never married, at some point moved in and became part of that household. So when we came to California, they were living in the house with my great uncle, my great aunt, and my mother’s cousin, Jack, and they just took us into the house. It was just that straightforward. The other aunt that had come with my mother to the United States had gone through a series of things, and she was married for the second time, and had an epileptic daughter from her first marriage, and at that time had a boy that was younger than I was. He must’ve been about four or five when we came. And my great-grandmother was living in their house on 103rd Avenue, I think it was, 104th Avenue.

01-00:44:45 Warrin: So you had quite a few relatives here.

01-00:44:47 Dutra: That’s right. We had two nuclear families that lived there. My great aunt, the daughter, had remarried a fellow from Spain, from Galicia. They both worked, and so my great-grandmother, who—God, I don’t know how old she was then, well in her eighties—in effect was still running the household with an epileptic granddaughter and my mother’s cousin. Yeah. So that was the family that opened their arms to us. And if you wish, we can talk a little bit more about some of those memories there, because those are strong memories, and they’re great examples of the great family love that I think is inherent to the Portuguese culture.

01-00:45:48 Warrin: Sure. No, go ahead and continue.

01-00:45:50 Dutra: Okay. So when we arrived, we moved in with Uncle Jack, Aunt Martina and Jack. I think it was a two-bedroom house, but I don’t remember, but it’s the older houses that had the full basement down below, and they stored the stuff

down there. No one lived down there, but there was the upstairs. As I said, he had a chicken coop, and he had a little garage, and he had a plumbing business. So—

01-00:46:18 Warrin: This was the sort of house like you see in San Francisco where the basement is on the ground level?

01-00:46:26 Dutra: That’s right.

01-00:46:27 Warrin: It’s not—

01-00:46:28 Dutra: That’s exactly right. The basement was not cut into the ground. Yeah, that style house you see in San Jose today, those areas that have those kinds of houses even today. In those days, of course, they were built not on a cement foundation but were built on a wooden foundation that when we had the earthquakes many of them slid off their foundation. So it was that kind of house. It was, like I say, pre-1900 as a house. So we lived there for a period of time, and my uncle Jack had my dad work with him for a period of time while he was looking for work. And guess where he got his first job in Oakland. California Cotton Mills on 23rd Avenue! [laughter] So—

01-00:47:31 Warrin: Made sense.

01-00:47:32 Dutra: That’s right! That’s right. In fact, he said in some notes that he left describing that period of time, he said when he went there they said, “Not hiring,” and yet, when they knew what experience he had, he was hired and worked the swing shift initially. But it was that time where we were still prewar. However, the shipbuilding was explosive in the Bay Area, the Kaiser shipyards in Richmond, and then there was Pacific Bridge, and there were a number of different of those. And so my dad went to work at Kaiser, and in a short period of time he was leading a crew, that type of thing. My dad was a very competent guy, and had a quiet confidence. He figured if there was something that someone else did, he could learn how to do it. I wish I had developed that same confidence level. My kids have it, but it skipped me. But my dad went to work initially at the Kaiser shipyards. In fact, my Kaiser Hospital membership number is the number that was given to me when my dad worked at the Kaiser shipyards in the 1940s.

01-00:49:01 Warrin: It must be number twenty-five.

01-00:49:02 Dutra: Yeah, I was going to say, not quite that, but it’s 94045, and there’s three zeroes in front of that. But it’s one of those kind of things that people at Kaiser occasionally say, “My God!”

01-00:49:15 Warrin: Are you sure?

01-00:49:16 Dutra: Yeah. [laughter] So anyway, he did that, and then he went to another shipyard that was closer, in Alameda, that type of thing. And my uncle Jack’s friends were carpenters, and they got my dad a job working in home building, because that was beginning to really move, even though there was war. There were so many people moving in. There was housing. And he took to that, because he knew. He knew how to build boats, and he knew how to do things, and he took to that. And within the first year, the building season is such that you build with a big crew throughout the summer, and when the rains come you lay off most of the people, and then you keep a key number of people that will continue working. They’ll do finish work inside and stuff like that. And within the first year my dad and the two Portuguese guys were the three guys that continued to work, just an indication of how quickly he learned and how hard they all worked.

01-00:50:39 Warrin: And this is around 1939, somewhere in there?

01-00:50:41 Dutra: No, because he was in the shipyards in the early forties, so it was, I would guess, about ’42.

01-00:50:47 Warrin: So this is during the war.

01-00:50:49 Dutra: Still during the war. Yeah, still during the war. They’d been—

01-00:50:52 Warrin: Was he too old to be drafted?

01-00:50:54 Dutra: Yes, his age, and the fact that the dependents he had. He had two dependents at that time, and then when I was fourteen my mom and dad had a girl—I’m sorry—a boy, and then a couple of years later a girl. So the children in the family had grown to four, and so I think he got deferment because he was working in a war industry, had a family, that type of thing.

01-00:51:26 Warrin: And there’s quite a hiatus between the two brothers and—

01-00:51:29 Dutra: Yes, yes. In fact, at one particular point I was carrying my brother in a grocery store, and my mom, who always looked very young, was ahead of me in the line, and some lady made a sarcastic comment to her about robbing the cradle, implying that I was her husband and that was our child [laughter]. So there was that kind of an age spread. And, in fact, my sister Linda is, in many ways, closer to my two older boys than she is to the rest of them because their ages were so close. They were so close. But jumping back, they lived on 1237 97th Avenue. Well, see, let me go through the sequence. I’m a little mixed up. My uncle Jack then bought a house on 97th Avenue that was a one-bedroom. And what he did then is he, my aunt Martina, and my uncle, and my cousin moved to a building behind the cleaners. I don’t want to call it a shack, but it certainly wasn’t a regular house, and the back of the cleaners had the kitchens and stuff like that. They moved there and had my parents move into the house that they just bought. And I still to the day say, you know, what generosity, what willingness to do that. And they bought the house just before December of 1941, because we were living in that house at that time. And my dad helped my uncle Jack build an extension to the house for another bedroom, and a separate garage, and those kind of things. So they are very close, very close, all the rest of their lives. And then my folks bought a home in Brookfield Village. You’ve heard of Brookfield Village in East Oakland?

01-00:53:57 Warrin: I’m not sure, no.

01-00:53:58 Dutra: Okay, Brookfield Village was built just as the war started, and it was towards the Oakland Airport. If you went up 98th Avenue, there were two sets of railroad tracks beyond the East 14th Street kind of thing. And it was a small community. I don’t know, the houses were two bedroom, one bath, that type of thing. And it had a little grocery center, and it had a drug store. So it was a nice little community, but it consisted primarily of, I’ll say, the war workers. It was very clear if people talked about the Okies moving to California, well, a number of our neighbors were people who had moved from the Midwest to come to California to work in the industries there. But it was a nice community. But after the war, as Oakland changed its character, because it was an old city, that area also declined. Eventually my folks moved to Castro Valley. But that’s, to me, an interesting sequence of how my great-uncles and aunts were so helpful to us as a family, and so loving. And in that time period, then my grandfather and my step-grandmother moved to California, and my mother’s sister, her husband, and her son moved to California.

01-00:55:55 Warrin: We’re going to have to take a break here.

01-00:55:59 Dutra: All right.

[Audio File 2]

02-00:00:10 Warrin: Okay, so we’re starting back with a second tape here, and we had talked about your family moving to California, and some of your experience. And what grade were you in when you came out here?

02-00:00:31 Dutra: I was either in the fourth or fifth grade when I came out here, so I still had some elementary school left, and I attended E. Morris Cox Elementary School in East Oakland.

02-00:00:45 Warrin: And how was that different in terms of education and schoolmates to what it was like in New Bedford?

02-00:00:55 Dutra: One of the things when I left New Bedford, we had just learned the twelve tables, so that was from the standpoint of arithmetic. That was where I was when I left New Bedford. And when I came to California, they were learning the nine tables. So from the standpoint of mathematics, I was probably a little ahead of them. The other thing I mentioned to you was, of course, the politeness with the teachers. And one of the first times that the teacher called on me in my class, I jumped out of my seat in order to respond, and she was absolutely shocked. I think she was afraid I was going to attack her or something. And, of course, I learned pretty quickly that you didn’t have to do that in this school here. The classmates were just great. One of the things that I did was that in going to school every morning I would stop by the grocery store, and a Japanese boy who was my same age and I would walk to school together. And then, of course, when the Second World War came along, the family was forced to leave that area. And that had an emotional effect on me, to saying, gee, he’s an American just like me, even though his family was teaching him Japanese and that type of thing. He was an American kid, the way it was. So that was—

02-00:02:47 Warrin: They were headed off to camp, right?

02-00:02:48 Dutra: That’s right. They were being displaced, and the store closed. The other kids were just other kids. We all got along just fine. I became part of the crossing guard group, so obviously I had great talent. I could take the sign and hold it out [laughter] so that the kids could cross the street. And so it was fun. I did not have any difficulties at all with school. I was a cooperative kid. I was the oldest boy in the family, and so to that extent there were things expected of me, plus the fact that my brother who was a year and a half younger than I had learning disabilities, and so it was much more difficult for him to learn and succeed in his classwork than it was for me. It just was easier for me. So there

was high expectations for me, and I tried hard to live up to them, I guess I would say.

02-00:04:05 Warrin: And so you were in elementary school here also, and—

02-00:04:13 Dutra: Yeah, this is the period of time I’m discussing, yes.

02-00:04:17 Warrin: Right, and then moved on to junior high.

02-00:04:22 Dutra: Junior high, right, mm-hmm. Yeah, it was the Elmhurst Junior High School. And, again, it was fine. It was even closer— Well, it wasn’t, because we had moved to Brookfield, but it was close enough that I could walk to school, and that type of thing. And some of the things that were interesting in junior high school is our homeroom teacher was a Mr. Campbell, and they were always looking for things for the kids to do after they’d had their lunch, and there was still time. And so sometimes we would play handball against a wall, but the other thing he would do is he would hold lunchtime dances, and so we could, after we had lunch, go into the auditorium and dance with the girls. And as a result, I think the kids out of Elmhurst, generally speaking, when they got to high school tended to be better dancers, and the boys were less shy about asking girls to dance than kids that came from other middle schools.

02-00:05:42 Warrin: Right, sounds like it. What kind of contacts did you have at this point with the greater Portuguese community?

02-00:05:52 Dutra: There was ongoing contact. As we got here, for example, my great-uncle and aunts were in contact with the greater community. My great-aunt played in a theatrical group for one of the societies and that kind of thing. And so we had that kind of contact, and we would go to some of the Holy Ghost festas. And in those days the Holy Ghost festas very often had a carnival associated with the festival. And one of the guys that had a sales booth was a fellow that sold soap, and in order to attract the people he had a snake collection. And so one of my memories would be as soon as I got there, once we had the sopas, I would rush over to watch him and his snake collection. So it was one of those kind of things. It was one of those memories. And then about five years ago I was going through the Library of Congress kind of thing, and there were a couple of I’m going to call them propaganda films, that one of them talked about the Portuguese in San Leandro. And the take on that was—have you heard of this one or seen this one? The take on this one was the Portuguese are good Americans, and so the whole theme was—they said, for example, that at that time San Leandro had about 19,000 people, and 80 percent of them were Portuguese descent, and here’s a Portuguese boy, and here’s a Portuguese girl, and that type of thing.

02-00:07:54 Warrin: I’m not familiar with that.

02-00:07:55 Dutra: I think I can get you the reference to it. The second one, though, was a Santa Clara festa, the SES. And in it they showed the snake man. He was out there with his snake. It was one of the photographs. And I thought, wow, what an interesting connect for me. But here’s a carnival, and there’s the snake man, and I used to go to that. And my uncles had enough connections that we would bring a panela [pot]—that’s what we call the word in Portuguese, right? A panela. And afterwards, after the people had eaten we would have a panela of sopas that we would take home, and they would just give it to—you go around the back door and you get your panela of sopas [soup], and then our second meal that day was sopas again. So there was that part of it. The other part was we, as an extended family, we went to the beach a lot. That was a great, low cost way of entertainment. And my uncle also knew a guy that had a fishing shack in Half Moon Bay, and they would all go out and get lapas [limpets], and they would go back to the fishing shack and take the newspaper, take paper bags and spread them out, and then sit around the table and eat the lapas. Now, as a kid, that was one I never adapted to, seeing the live lapas, but that was, again, a kind of connection. A third kind of thing is that there were friends that were friends of my great-uncle and aunt. One was called Manuel do Pico—again, the old nickname, right? Manual do Pico. And another was João Lemos, who played the mandolin. My dad played the guitar. And periodically those close friends would get together for events, or just to get together, and my dad would play the guitar, and João Lemos would play the mandolin, and we’d sing, and we’d do that kind of thing. So there was that kind of connection that even extended to our home in that on Sundays, after we would have dinner, my dad would pull out the guitar, and we would sing American songs and Portuguese songs. And my dad always had the song that was “Alzira, meu Alzira, amor do meu coração” [Elise, my Elise, love of my heart], and then he would extemporize on that.

02-00:10:57 Warrin: Yeah. That’s great.

02-00:10:58 Dutra: And so those kind of things were good connections. But really, belonging to organizations, my folks weren’t into that much, and so therefore I never really got involved in those to any great extent. Yeah, so I really didn’t get involved directly that way.

02-00:11:17 Warrin: So then high school?

02-00:11:22 Dutra: High school. High school, again, was a good experience. I was a decent student, B/A average, a little better than B average kind of student. I was one who got along. I was elected to student body council, vice president of the

student body, you know, things like that. And one of the things that happened both in junior high school and high school is I started to take on job responsibilities. For example, in junior high school I had the job as the after- school kid janitor, and so my responsibility was to clean the classrooms after school.

02-00:12:19 Warrin: And you were paid for this?

02-00:12:20 Dutra: Yes, yes, it was a paid kind of thing. And again, as I said, the money I made went to the family budget. It wasn’t, “It’s your money, put it in the savings account,” or anything like that. It was, “Let’s keep the family going.”

02-00:12:32 Warrin: What did the other students think of that?

02-00:12:35 Dutra: I don’t think there was any problem with that kind of thing at all. I also, either still in junior high school or in high school, I worked for a restaurant in the kitchen. I was the dishwasher with a buddy of mine, who was of Italian- Mexican descent, and we became very good friends on that. So I did that. Well, we’ll talk about college, but let me sort of jump ahead. As I went to college, I worked the summers at the Hunt’s cannery in Hayward, and in those days it was twelve-hour shifts, and I worked the night shift from 6:00 to 6:00 in the morning, and six days a week, and sometimes on Sunday.

02-00:13:33 Warrin: Wow.

02-00:13:34 Dutra: And it was a great source of building income, to be able to afford to go to college.

02-00:13:43 Warrin: How did you get into Berkeley?

02-00:13:48 Dutra: To Berkeley?

02-00:13:49 Warrin: Yeah.

02-00:13:50 Dutra: I’m assuming it was my grade point average. I qualified on my grade point average, but I was not an A student, though. You know, I was a B-plus or whatever.

02-00:14:01 Warrin: That’s why I was asking, yeah.

02-00:14:02 Dutra: I was a B-plus kind of student. And I honestly don’t know whether there was any special consideration that I was from what you might call a blue collar kind of community or not. Nothing was ever said, other than the fact that there were about six of us from my class that went to Berkeley. And they were a cross-section of America. There was a guy whose family was from Samoa. There was a gal whose parents were Italian. There was myself, who had a Portuguese heritage. There was a guy who had an English kind of name, so I don’t know whether he was English, Irish, or—and another one that way, too. So there was about six of us from my class of 135 went to Berkeley. One of the things—I had to smile about it—is I never felt I was much of a grammarian. Prepositional phrases and things like that were just not too interesting to me. And so, of course, you remember that going into Berkeley if you didn’t pass the entrance test you had to take bonehead English. And so I felt, for example, one of the guys was valedictorian for the graduating class, and one of the gals was a gal valedictorian, and so—

02-00:15:38 Warrin: Valedictorian, yeah.

02-00:15:40 Dutra: Yeah, valedictorian, yeah. And so when the results came out and we all looked at the scores, I was the only one that passed the English examination, and all the rest of them had to take bonehead English, and I—

02-00:15:53 Warrin: So you passed.

02-00:15:54 Dutra: [laughter] Yeah, and I passed. And I think it was even though I didn’t know the rules, I had the sense of things sounding right, the sense of organization. I think that’s what did it for me.

02-00:16:14 Warrin: And so what did you major in in college?

02-00:16:19 Dutra: Yeah, it’s a strange road. I started off in pre-pharmacy, because one of the jobs I’d worked part-time in high school was in a pharmacy, to deliver medicines and things like that. And after Botany XII I decided I really didn’t care that much for that direction. And so I moved into general administration, and finally ended up in political science, with public administration as my major. And so I graduated in public administration at Berkeley.

02-00:17:02 Warrin: And what did you think you were going to do at that point?

02-00:17:04 Dutra: At that point I thought I would then, after my military service, do some graduate work and perhaps get into city planning or city manager or that type

of thing. That was the general strategy that I had in mind. Yeah, at that time there was the Korean War, and deferments were— My first year was a disaster. I had terrible study habits. I was living at home. I was commuting, all that kind of stuff. And then the second year I said, I’ve got to buckle down. And so I rented a room by the campus. I hashed for my meals. I worked at a country club on weekends. And every night I would, after I hashed the evening meal, I would take my books and I’d go to the library, and I’d stay at the library until ten o’clock at night, when they closed. In fact, I found a little nook there at the library where I could stuff my books, so I didn’t even take them home. I would stuff my books in this little area, and then in the morning if I needed a book I would swing by the library and pick it up, and if I didn’t I would have them there when I had to do studying during the day or at night. So I developed some discipline, and as a result my grades improved dramatically. The Air Force ROTC came along after my second year, and considering the Korean War and things like that, I joined the Air Force ROTC. And ROTC tests are all multiple choice, and I was a wiz at multiple choice, multiple guesses. And so I got very good grades at that. And as a matter of fact, when I graduated I graduated as a distinguished military graduate, where I could’ve gone on and asked for a regular appointment as an officer in the Air Force, rather than being a reserve officer, the thing I took eventually. I was active. I took judo classes, swimming classes, tennis classes, boxing classes. I got a letter in boxing at the welterweight level, and my saving grace was long arms. [laughter]

02-00:20:01 Warrin: So you actually were intercollegiate boxing?

02-00:20:03 Dutra: Yes, uh-huh. And—

02-00:20:06 Warrin: Who did you box?

02-00:20:09 Dutra: Well, for example, we boxed against Stanford. We boxed against University of Nevada. So it was other colleges here in the state. And as a result of that, I developed a deviated septum, and as one of my graduation gifts from college they operated on my nose for me before I left. But it was the kind of thing where I just enjoyed being active, and I wanted to stay in shape and that kind of thing.

02-00:20:43 Warrin: You certainly did that. Yeah, one of my uncles was a boxer at Yale.

02-00:20:49 Dutra: Ah, uh-huh. Yeah, I was the second level. I was the second man in the 145 thing, so that if there was just one guy boxing my buddy would go do it, and I’d go along for the trip. But then sometimes, of course, the other team also had more than one boxer at that weight level, so I would get a chance to box.

02-00:21:16 Warrin: Wow. So what year did you graduate?

02-00:21:20 Dutra: I graduated in ’53.

02-00:21:21 Warrin: In ’53, right in the middle of the Korean War.

02-00:21:24 Dutra: Yeah, it really was—yeah, that’s right. It was sort of running down at that time, but yeah, it was right in the Korean War.

02-00:21:31 Warrin: So I guess you’re in the Reserve. They wanted you in the military at that point.

02-00:21:35 Dutra: Sure. Well, the requirement for joining ROTC was that when you graduated you would be active duty for two years. That was the requirement. And so when I graduated, just about that time, Ginny and I met each other, and we were dating, and so we decided that we weren’t going to wait until after I finished my one year of training, because I was going to be an Air Force navigator. They called it Aircraft Observer at that time. I was going to do that, and we decided we were going to get married at that time. Well, we decided right at the last minute to get married before I went on active duty. My tour of duty was three years. The first year was training, and then the second year would’ve been whatever duty assignment it was. And as it happened, the aircraft observer school in Ellington, based in Houston, needed instructors. Then I applied for it, and I got it. So I went from Harlingen, Texas, which was my first year assignment—it’s way down in south Texas, where the cockroaches are like elephants—to Houston, where the humidity was so high that moss would hang off from the trees. And so my three years in the Air Force was entirely in Texas, even though there was the Korean War. But the really funny thing was that on one weekend, when I was in Ellington, there was a cross-country training mission, and so we flew from Texas to Bermuda.

02-00:23:45 Warrin: Oh, that must’ve been horrible, huh?

02-00:23:47 Dutra: Yeah. [laughter] So we flew to Bermuda, and we stayed there two days, and then flew back. And that it was entered in my record as being overseas.

02-00:24:00 Warrin: Overseas. Oh my.

02-00:24:01 Dutra: Yeah. And so even though my date of overseas remained December 7th, 1941, when I got out of the service they gave me an extra $250 for my overseas

assignment, and I always smiled at that. That was great to my mind. What a deal, what a deal. My Air Force assignment was just wonderful, just a piece of cake. Yeah, we’d fly twice a week, and we’d instruct the other days in the week, and very few of the flights were overnight. For night trips we would fly and then come back the same day, that kind of thing. And so it was a piece of cake. And one of the things I did was I thought I’d like to take one more year at the pay grade of a first lieutenant on flying status, and I had taken a course at the University of Houston, and the Air Force paid for it, and the requirement was that I would have to serve another year. I said, what a great way. And so very closely when I was ready to get out I was called in by the commanding officer, and he said two things. One, he said, “Because of your background, we’re ready to offer you a regular commission. And because we know that what you’re doing by taking that course was to extend for one year, the Air Force has decided that it will not hold anyone in that situation to that obligation. So if you want to stay in the Air Force, you can either go indefinite, take a regular commission, but we won’t let you stay another year.” Because I thought I’d stay another year in Texas. So there were things like that that were just very lucky.

02-00:26:00 Warrin: Sounds like it went very well for you. So after two years you left?

02-00:26:05 Dutra: Three, because of the training, because I went into the navigation training. It cost an additional year.

02-00:26:13 Warrin: Had you thought about making a career out of the Air Force?

02-00:26:17 Dutra: Briefly, but just briefly, because the feeling we had— We had two children by the time we left the Air Force, and I felt the instability of military life was not something that I think would be fair to Ginny and that I would enjoy.

02-00:26:38 Warrin: Yeah. Well, certainly you had a wonderful assignment, but you might’ve been—

02-00:26:44 Dutra: That’s right.

02-00:26:45 Warrin: You might’ve been stuck in Japan or Germany or some other place, and—

02-00:26:51 Dutra: Exactly, and I expected that would happen as soon as I either selected a regular appointment or go on indefinite reserve status, I know they’d ship me somewhere.

02-00:27:02 Warrin: Yeah, and your family might not join you for some time—

02-00:27:06 Dutra: That’s right.

02-00:27:06 Warrin: —or simply you might not see them. Let’s go back. You got married fairly early. Were you still in college when you got married?

02-00:27:15 Dutra: We got married three months out of college.

02-00:27:18 Warrin: Three months. And how did you meet your wife?

02-00:27:24 Dutra: Oh, we met at a dance at the Newman Club at Berkeley.

02-00:27:30 Warrin: On campus.

02-00:27:31 Dutra: In fact, late in the evening I went across the dance floor and asked her if she’d like to dance, and she went, “Oh.” And so I said, “You don’t sound very enthusiastic.” And she says, “Oh, that’s all right.” But she’d been dancing all night and her feet hurt and all that, but she said, “Oh.” And so what she said afterwards, she said, “You know, I thought for a moment, you never can tell what’s going to come up from this.’” [laughter] And certainly it changed both our lives.

02-00:28:02 Warrin: It did. So then you got back together with her soon after?

02-00:28:08 Dutra: Well, what happened, of course, she went with me when I went to Texas. I was able to have her join me a month or two after I was in the service in Harlingen and then in Ellington with me. So—

02-00:28:25 Warrin: But you were married then.

02-00:28:26 Dutra: Yes, we were married. Yeah.

02-00:28:27 Warrin: But you got to know each other better while you were students.

02-00:28:33 Dutra: Well, it was a whirlwind romance. It really was, yeah. We joke about the fact that we understood we had the same values, but probably didn’t deeply

understand our personality habits as they evolved, and when you’re initially married those are not terribly important, right?

02-00:28:58 Warrin: Right, yeah, you don’t take those always into consideration. So what was she majoring in?

02-00:29:05 Dutra: Her story is an interesting one, too. She was taking a general business administration or a general whatever it was, and didn’t know quite what she wanted to do. And as an indication of what life was like in those days for gals, she took a battery of tests, and she went in and talked to the counselor to see the results of the test, and in effect he said, “You know, you would make a good housewife.” [laughter] And so that supports the joke, you know, of many girls in that period of time who went after their MRS degree: find a man, marry him. But after we became engaged—she was going to be a junior the following semester—she went to work at H.C. Capwell’s as a buyer’s assistant. We were in the phase of let’s see if we can wait a year before getting married and that kind of thing. And so she worked at Capwell’s for a short period of time when we decided let’s tie the knot and let’s move forward.

02-00:30:27 Warrin: And then she dropped out of school at that point.

02-00:30:29 Dutra: Yes, mm-hmm. She later on went back to community college and got her Associate of Arts in travel, as a travel agent.

02-00:30:41 Warrin: Right, and that’s something that we’ll talk about.

02-00:30:42 Dutra: But that’s way in the future, yeah.

02-00:30:46 Warrin: So when did you have your first child?

02-00:30:54 Dutra: It was—let’s see, we were married in September, and we had our first child the following August, so it was eleven months.

02-00:31:04 Warrin: Okay. And where were you at that time?

02-00:31:07 Dutra: I was in Harlingen, Texas, still in training. So my first two boys are Texans. They don’t admit it, but they’re Texans.

02-00:31:15 Warrin: They’re Texans by birth. And how many children did you have altogether?

02-00:31:23 Dutra: Yeah, we have four boys and one girl. We were trying for the girl for a while, and then decided when the fifth one came along, if it wasn’t a girl, we’d just settle for a basketball team and go from there. But we did get the girl, finally.

02-00:31:39 Warrin: But it was a girl. That’s like me. We had two boys, and then really wanted a girl, and we ended up with twin boys.

02-00:31:51 Dutra: Oh, twins!

02-00:31:53 Warrin: So we didn’t try anymore after that.

02-00:31:57 Dutra: Oh, wow!

02-00:31:59 Warrin: So after you got out of the Air Force, what year was that?

02-00:32:07 Dutra: It was a three-year assignment, so I got out in ’56. And then, of course, I started looking for— Well, first of all, I started to evaluate doing advanced degree work in public administration. And it became pretty apparent that the idea of a married guy with two children to work towards an advanced degree in public administration was really more than I wanted to do. I just didn’t want to stretch myself and the family that much. And it so happened that while I was very close to my completion of my service of the Air Force, I was in the Air Force accounting office at Ellington Air Force Base, and I was in there talking about something, and I looked over, and I saw a bunch of machines going chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug. And I said, “What’s that?” And they said, “Well, that’s our IBM department.” And I said, “That looks interesting.” So I contacted the IBM office in Houston, and so we chatted, and they made me a job offer for Houston. And I said, “Thanks, but I want to go back to California. I want to go back to California.” So they transferred my papers back here, and I was hired by the San Francisco office, by IBM.

02-00:33:41 Warrin: With no hiatus. You essentially left the service and went to IBM.

02-00:33:44 Dutra: Yeah, the service, and yeah, right to IBM.

02-00:33:48 Warrin: And what did they hire you to do?

02-00:33:50 Dutra: Well, they hired me into marketing, and I was going to be a marketing representative. I was, I became a marketing representative. But I wanted to tell

you just a little— Back to their IBM department. Well, it happened at that time the Air Force’s “IBM department” used Remington Rand equipment. So if the person I had talked to knew what the equipment was and said Remington Rand, I would’ve probably interviewed at Remington Rand rather than IBM. And, of course, Remington Rand (Univac) was always second cousin to IBM in terms of success in the computer business. So call it dumb luck. You know, I ended up asking the right question and got the wrong answer, and then had a thirty-year career with IBM.

02-00:34:42 Warrin: And why did they call it the IBM if they weren’t using—

02-00:34:47 Dutra: You know, why do you call facial tissue Kleenex? It’s sort of the—

02-00:34:51 Warrin: Good point.

02-00:34:52 Dutra: It’s sort of the Kleenex of the data processing department.

02-00:34:58 Warrin: In those days, yeah.

02-00:34:59 Dutra: In those days it was, absolutely. It was the really dominant one. In fact, it was just the beginning of the computer time, just at the very beginning. In fact, most of my training was on the older what we called unit record machines, you know, a machine that punched the cards, a machine that printed the cards, a machine that sorted the cards. It was cards, cards, cards, cards. I’d gotten my initial training that way, and it was only towards the end of a first year that I finally started to get computer training.

02-00:35:37 Warrin: And computers in those days would fill a room like this, right?

02-00:35:39 Dutra: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, they were just huge rooms. And they had these panels with blinking lights, and they had switches where you would put switches up and down. You could enter data on the computer that was as big as a room by putting data in, zero one zero one zero one kind of stuff. So I was very fortunate that I hit the industry just at the right time.

02-00:36:06 Warrin: Even the punch card machines were huge, weren’t they?

02-00:36:10 Dutra: Yeah, well, they were relatively good. The accounting machine was about the width of this sofa, and about this height, that kind of thing, and it used what they call a control panel. The way that you controlled the function was to

connect wires from read this column to print this information there, so you would, in effect, replicate what you wanted on the report with what was in the card, and you could tailor it with the control panel.

02-00:36:44 Warrin: Yeah. But soon went through a revolutionary change from the big computers, and then fairly quickly to small—

02-00:37:02 Dutra: Smaller and smaller, but fairly quickly. Yeah, it would be fairly quickly. The first what I would call business computer was something called the 1401, IBM 1401. And primarily what it was was a relatively simple computer instruction set tied to a very high speed printer. And so with that combination it became ideal for commercial business activities, payrolls, and accounts receivable, and human relations, and all that kind of stuff, so that the bigger computers did those things, but they were much more expensive. And the 1401 just really hit the right price, performance range, and it was just extremely successful.

02-00:38:10 Warrin: And what year would that have been when the 1401 came out?

02-00:38:13 Dutra: That would be probably ’58, ’59, yeah, at that time. So I had been a marketing rep. I didn’t particularly enjoy. I had five counties as my territory, and they were all north of San Francisco Bay. And I was living in Hayward, so I—

02-00:38:43 Warrin: And this is a fairly rural area that you had.

02-00:38:47 Dutra: That’s right. That’s right. So I did a lot of driving, and there were not a lot of big businesses. The biggest business in that area was the Naval shipyard in Vallejo, and there was an account team, a whole team, that had that as a responsibility. And so I was going around and working. My biggest accounts tended to be, for example, Contra Costa County had a fairly large data processing installation. There was a wholesale grocer that installed one of the first direct access computers that was able to take data randomly, and they used to have what they call bins of cards, each card representing an item in their warehouse. So if you were the corner grocery store and you wanted a case of toilet paper and a case of soda and that kind of thing, there were girls that would take the order, and they would pick the cards for each one of those. So that was the inventory control. There was one card for every item they had. And then they would put your name and address on the front of it. They’d walk over to the accounting machine. They would sort it in warehouse order, take it over to the account machine, print the packing slip, and go out and pick the stuff. And so some of these huge grocery distributors had girls that actually were in roller skates, because it was —

02-00:40:26 Warrin: Really?

02-00:40:26 Dutra: Yeah, they’d go roller skate back and forth, picking cards.

02-00:40:29 Warrin: That’s amazing.

02-00:40:30 Dutra: Yeah. And the first non-punch card machine that I installed was this 305 RAMAC. And I could show you what the first disk—I’ll show you afterwards—the disk looked like— It was a twenty-four inch disk, twenty- four inches in diameter. [laughter] But also, once we installed it, unfortunately they didn’t need as many of the girls that were picking that, and so I had this sort of emotional frustration of saying, well, you know, I’m helping people do things more productively, but yet I’m costing people their jobs. So even at that point I had this sort of what is it kind of, because they couldn’t reassign that many people to the warehouse. So anyway, IBM turned out to be just a delightful career. I worked there. I worked in the Education Center. I was the Test Center Manager. I was instruction manager there. I went back east into education development, where we developed material for all of the Ed centers in the United States.

02-00:41:46 Warrin: Did you actually—the family moved back there?

02-00:41:48 Dutra: Moved back to Poughkeepsie, New York, for three years, and—

02-00:41:53 Warrin: That’s sort of an IBM center, isn’t it?

02-00:41:55 Dutra: Yes. They used to make the large-scale computer systems there, manufacture the large-scale computer systems there, and in World War II they manufactured weapons in Poughkeepsie. Intellectually, I knew what the weather would be like, and living in a more rural area would be like, but emotionally I never handled it. Yeah, the snow, the cold weather, all this kind of stuff.

02-00:42:28 Warrin: The isolation upstate there.

02-00:42:30 Dutra: Yeah. Well, it was a cute little town, but it was the kind of town that on Sundays all the stores closed. I mean, it was the old kind of thing. You couldn’t go to a mall on Sunday because the malls were all closed. It was a small town. In fact, the house that we bought was a new house, and it had been on the site of a dairy farm. So we lived in Hagantown, which was really

the old dairy farm. But it was an interesting experience. It was a wonderful experience. But I wanted to get back to family, and so I looked for an assignment to come back here, and I got back here again.

02-00:43:07 Warrin: And what was your feeling of the scientific—what would we call it—these developments, this tremendous change from a computer that filled a room, which was already revolutionary compared with a card machine, to something that you could sort of carry around?

02-00:43:35 Dutra: Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing that happened—and if you’re very interested, there’s a videotape called The Triumph of the Nerds. IBM, a number of years before I retired, was getting one-third of its income from the large systems, one-third of its income from direct access storage devices, San Jose—San Jose had 13,000 people there—and third were smaller systems and software and things like that. So it was one-third, one-third, one-third. When the Apple desktop disk system came on, IBM’s reaction was once a family has taken all the recipes and put them on the computer, what in heaven’s name are they going to use it for? That was sort of the feeling.

02-00:44:49 Warrin: So they weren’t looking forward in that respect.

02-00:44:51 Dutra: Yeah, it was just sort of a passing fancy kind of thing. And then when they saw the momentum that the Mac had and—

02-00:45:02 Warrin: Apple in those days, wasn’t it? The Apple, yeah.

02-00:45:03 Dutra: Yeah, the Apple Mac. When they saw the momentum that Apple had, they decided that they had to get on the bandwagon. And then they built a computer based on shelf parts. There was very little exclusive IBM patented, this thing that would make it better than that thing. So what IBM did is it allowed anybody else that could go to the shelf to build an IBM compatible personal computer. Now, IBM still dominated that in that market, but the second thing they did was they didn’t want to bother making the operating system to run the big PC. So they went to some guy named Gates, and—

02-00:46:01 Warrin: Bill, of course.

02-00:46:02 Dutra: Yeah, Bill. And they, in effect, said, “Would you do it?” He says, “I don’t know if I can, but I’ll look.” And he bought a basic operating system from somebody else, fancied it up, and IBM said, “Great. You know, you just keep enhancing it and you’ll have the right to do whatever you want with it.” And,

of course, there goes the story of the Triumph of the Nerds. Who controls the operating system controls the system.

02-00:46:33 Warrin: And so Gates got control of the operating system, and then he moved over to Microsoft.

02-00:46:42 Dutra: The Microsoft thing. Yeah, he built Microsoft.

02-00:46:44 Warrin: Built Microsoft, yeah.

02-00:46:45 Dutra: Yeah, he built Microsoft, yeah, yeah. And IBM then said, “We’ll do our own operating system,” but by that time all the compatibles, hardware, found that they could get the operating system from Microsoft, and so they did that.

02-00:47:02 Warrin: And so IBM built personal computers, but they had to run Microsoft software.

02-00:47:08 Dutra: Sure, sure. And I think everyone agreed that— Not to criticize management, but no one understood where things were going with the internet and things like that. No one understood that something like a spreadsheet, where you could put information and do calculations and do stuff like that, could be done so effectively on a personal computer. So there were things that people just didn’t understand. I was one myself. When people talked about microprocessors, I said, “We don’t have time for that. I’m selling disk.” [laughter] So—

02-00:47:51 Warrin: Yeah. But Bill Gates did have a better vision of that.

02-00:47:56 Dutra: Well, yes. Yes, but I think more importantly he was able to get a product quickly, and he was able to have control of that product. If IBM had said, “Bill Gates, you build this for us, but we own it, and you have to have our permission to distribute it,” that would’ve changed the whole game. But IBM did not. It wasn’t important enough. So they let it go. In fact, there was another guy that IBM talked to before Gates, and had an operating system, and because he was asked to sign a nondisclosure agreement that they were negotiating and wouldn’t do it, IBM stopped talking to him and went to Gates.

02-00:48:52 Warrin: And it is strange, looking back, that IBM didn’t keep the rights to an operating system that they paid to develop.

02-00:49:01 Dutra: Yeah, isn’t it? Because they didn’t think it was important enough. Yeah, the big iron was providing one-third of the revenue, disk was providing another one-third of revenue, these PCs were off-the-shelf devices.

02-00:49:18 Warrin: So it shows how important vision is.

02-00:49:22 Dutra: That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely right. [laughter]

02-00:49:28 Warrin: So during this time that you’re working for IBM, did you maintain contact with the Portuguese community?

02-00:49:39 Dutra: No, not at all. I really had stopped my involvement— Well, my involvement with Portuguese was tied to the family through high school, in effect. And then after high school, my grandfather passed away, and things like that happened. And I didn’t do anything. I was a college student being a college student. And I had to take a foreign language, and Portuguese wasn’t offered at UC Berkeley, interestingly enough, at that time. So I had a choice, and I took French, and I hated it; but I would’ve loved to have had that as an option for me. I’d taken Spanish in high school, and I did well in Spanish because I had the ear for Portuguese, you know, the structure of the sentence, a lot of the words, and that kind of thing. So high school I enjoyed Spanish, and when I was living in south Texas I became the interpreter for the Mexican apartment manager, so that every time he had someone who didn’t speak Spanish, he would grab them by their sleeve, come and knock at my door, day or night, [imitates knocking sound] and here we’re newlyweds, [imitates knocking sound] and then he would ask me to translate. And so I got pretty good in Spanish,.

02-00:51:02 Warrin: Well, that was a good service, yeah. [laughter] So you had essentially no connection with the Portuguese community.

02-00:51:17 Dutra: No, I didn’t. I didn’t belong to any societies. I didn’t go to crab feeds. You know, there was just no real contact at all.

02-00:51:25 Warrin: And how did that change?

02-00:51:28 Dutra: Well, the change took place really a couple ways. One is in 1981 I’d been talking to Ginny a little about Portuguese heritage. My folks had gone to continental Portugal a number of years before to visit some relatives on my mother’s side, that kind of thing. And out of curiosity, since she was in the travel business, I said, “Why don’t we go visit Portugal?” And so she said,

“Yeah, let’s do it.” And so we did it. We just arranged it on our own. We went to continental Portugal, and we went to the Azores. And it was the year after the terrible earthquake of 1980. When we got to Terceira, when we saw this devastation—

02-00:52:27 Warrin: Things were destroyed, yeah.

02-00:52:28 Dutra: Just horrible. There is in Angra—let me think—the restaurant that’s right by the bay— Anyway, we saw in the guidebook there’s this restaurant here, and so we went down to have dinner that night there, and all there was was piles of stone. The whole building had collapsed. And they rebuilt it, and we go there now, and I’m having a mental blank as to where it is. But in spite of that, we were just amazed and delighted with the beauty of the Azores. It was just stepping back in history, and it was so beautiful. And in conversation, Ginny and I said, “You know, it’s strange that there are no real tours from California to the Azores.” And so she said, “Let’s try one.” And we did, and we had about sixteen people or something, had a great time. They had a wonderful time.

02-00:53:38 Warrin: What year was this?

02-00:53:39 Dutra: This was ’82 when we did our first tour. So this piece was happening. This piece was happening. And I was a few years from retiring, taking an early retirement.

02-00:53:54 Warrin: Let me back up and just ask about Ginny’s background in travel. When did she start?

02-00:54:01 Dutra: Ah, there’s a point that we were talking about earlier. A couple years before that, so it must’ve been ’78 or so, the kids were pretty much in high school, junior high school, and Ginny’s always been an innovative kind of person, liked to be involved. She’s involved with the church groups and things like that, paintings on our wall. That one there is one that she painted [points], and there’s another one around the corner that she painted. So she’s always had this life— isn’t dusting off the top of the countertops, you know. Life’s more than that. And the kids were reaching the point where they were taking advantage of her. Really, they were teenagers, and they would leave the dishes on the counter and all that kind of stuff. She said phooey. And so she was helping my son Steve with his planning for community college, and she saw travel careers, and she said, “Huh, this might be fun to take.” So she signed up for the course. And before she finished the course, she had a job offer from one of the travel agencies, part-time job, and so she could work in the travel

agency and still give the kids more responsibility and still do that. And that’s how she got into it. It was no great plan or dream.

02-00:55:37 Warrin: But it was a great move for her at that point in her life.

02-00:55:39 Dutra: Yeah. It was, to me, an expansion of her horizons, being able to be more than, okay, this is going to be for dinner tonight, I’ve got to put the clothes in the washing machine, the kids are going to come home, that type of thing.

02-00:55:58 Warrin: Yeah. Well, that’s great. Okay, we’re, again, running out of time, and I think this is a good point to stop.

02-00:56:07 Dutra: Okay, you want to do that? Because we’ve got—it’s one o’clock— No, I guess it’s a good time to stop. We’re making good progress, I think.

02-00:56:18 Warrin: Oh, yes.

Interview #2 January 29, 2014 [Audio File 3]

03-00:00:00 Warrin: This is January 29, 2014. We’re in with our second interview with Al Dutra. This is Don Warrin, and we’re at Al’s home in Mountain View. So Al, last time we talked about your family, about life in New Bedford. We talked about coming to California, your career with IBM, and your family, your retirement from IBM. What year was your retirement?

03-00:00:50 Dutra: I retired in ’87.

03-00:00:53 Warrin: In ’87. But prior to that you began, I think with your wife, to promote tourism. Was that your first tour? Was that as a tour, or did you go over there just for fun with you and your wife?

03-00:01:13 Dutra: Yes, we went there. I was curious to know more about Portugal, so in 1981 Ginny and I then took a trip to the Azores and continental Portugal. Eighty- one was the year after the terrible earthquake that impacted the central island group, and so I think—

03-00:01:42 Warrin: In Terceira.

03-00:01:43 Dutra: Yeah, Terceira, yes, especially, yes. And I may have made some mention about the fact that there was a tremendous amount of devastation there. In spite of that, you could see the marvelous beauty of the islands. We were very impressed with how beautiful and tranquil they were, and the fact that they seemed to be fifty, maybe more years behind. The first memory I have is when we came from the airport it was still dark, in the morning, and we took a cab into Terceira, into Angra. And along the way there were numerous individuals riding their donkeys with their milk cans, going off to the fields. So the motorized transportation tended to be these road tillers, these huge road tillers that they were using as little motorcycles, and they would have a small trailer behind them, and the number of trucks and cars were really minimum. So there was still this sense of stepping back in time. And then when we went to continental Portugal, we enjoyed it very much, and enjoyed the contrast. As we’ve always said, continental Portugal is a historic kind of visit, because it has so much history, while the Azores is sort of a pastoral kind of visit. So we had a wonderful time. We had planned to go to Flores, and when we arrived in Faial we found that people who were planning to go to Flores were waiting ten days for a flight to Flores, because the winds were so heavy there, and that was just another example of—you know, how many flights do we take a day to Los Angeles? And yet, of course, here people had waited ten days to get to Flores. And because I was still, of course, at work, I didn’t want to get over to

Flores and then find that I had to wait another ten days to get back home. So there were these kind of experiences that were very interesting.

And when we got home, in the conversation I said to Ginny, “Why aren’t there tours to the Azores?” And we said, “Okay, well, let’s try one.” And so we did that in 1982. It was very successful. We probably had eighteen people or so on the tour, but they had a wonderful time, and we had a wonderful time, and we started to do the tours.

03-00:04:52 Warrin: Now, Ginny already was active in the tourism industry, wasn’t she?

03-00:04:59 Dutra: Yes, she was. She had gone to Foothill College to get her associate’s degree in travel, primarily because she was interested in doing something different. The kids were teenagers, and they were more interested in what Mom could do so they could sit around and watch TV than helping out. So she said, “I think I can enjoy myself by working part-time.” And so she did that.

03-00:05:32 Warrin: And, yes, we had talked a little bit about that last time, but this was a different type of tourism. I imagine she didn’t go on the tours, she organized the tours. Is that right?

03-00:05:43 Dutra: Initially she and I hosted the tours together. So right from the start we were—

03-00:05:49 Warrin: No, excuse me. I meant before you started to go to Portugal, when she was acting as a tourist agent, she didn’t go on these tours.

03-00:05:58 Dutra: No, that’s right. That’s right. She—

03-00:06:00 Warrin: So this was a different procedure.

03-00:06:03 Dutra: Yeah. She was a classic travel agent, and arranged trips for other people. And what we became was really a tour operator for escorted tours.

03-00:06:14 Warrin: And I think you mentioned that you had done over seventy tours over the years.

03-00:06:21 Dutra: Yes, uh-huh. In the middle years, we were doing as many as four tours in a summer, and so we barely got home, washed the clothes, and then went on another tour. In that period, we were also asked by TAP [Portuguese airline]

to arrange tours for travel agencies, so we would arrange tours offseason for our travel agents so they would get to know the Azores.

03-00:06:52 Warrin: So you did this. In fact, you continued to do this, right?

03-00:06:57 Dutra: Yeah. Actually, this year we decided that we’re going to start doing our own kind of travel, and we’re not offering escorted tours anymore. Ginny is helping a couple of previous clients, but we’re shutting down the escorted tour business.

03-00:07:19 Warrin: And so you two are just going to go off and have fun by yourself.

03-00:07:23 Dutra: That’s right, that’s right. A Mississippi riverboat tour is one that we want to do fairly soon.

03-00:07:30 Warrin: Oh, wonderful. So it’s just not to Portuguese areas, but to different places.

03-00:07:34 Dutra: That’s right. That’s right.

03-00:07:36 Warrin: Yeah, well that sounds like a good segue. So you started in 1982 to do the tourism to Portugal, but you weren’t quite yet involved more closely with the Portuguese community itself, is that right?

03-00:08:00 Dutra: That’s correct, that’s correct. What I did was I decided I wanted to improve my Portuguese, and so I took an adult education class in Santa Clara, in Portuguese. And I felt fairly comfortable, because I had had enough Spanish, both in junior high school and high school. And, interestingly enough, my teacher was Pauline Stonehill (later author of A Barrowful of Memories); so, of course, I’ve known Pauline for many years. And then I continued to take classes afterward at the junior college in Santa Clara. And Velma Santos was one of my teachers, as well as Father Ribeiro, who was from Santa Clara. He was my teacher one semester.

03-00:09:02 Warrin: And so then that got you more psychologically involved in the community.

03-00:09:11 Dutra: Exactly.

03-00:09:13 Warrin: And then was the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce in San Jose your first connection?

03-00:09:22 Dutra: Yeah. Well, I think it’s important to say that when I knew I was going to retire I decided that my adult life had been involved with my career and my family. I really hadn’t made many contributions to the overall community, and so since I was getting enthusiastic about this whole Portuguese thing, in terms of both the tours and the language classes and things like that, I said, well, why don’t I get involved with the Portuguese ethnic community in the Santa Clara Valley. And the first contact I made was with POSSO. And I thought, gee, that would give me contact with the people. I could help out in some ways, and that kind of thing. So I attended a number of board meetings, and the activities of the board meeting were really administrative rather than people contact. They were redoing their accounting system, and they asked me if I would work on the accounting system. Well—

03-00:10:28 Warrin: So you were still in business, in a way.

03-00:10:29 Dutra: Yes, that’s exactly right. So I really wasn’t connecting with the community.

03-00:10:34 Warrin: And could you explain what POSSO is?

03-00:10:37 Dutra: Oh, yes, yes. The POSSO is the Portuguese Organization for Social Services in San Jose. And it serves primarily elderly people of Portuguese heritage, but it’s open to all ethnic groups. Now, they provide services in terms of translation, health benefit services. They have meals. They have a lawyer that comes in once a month to discuss legal issues that they may have, that type of thing. So it’s a very important function for the elderly in the Santa Clara Valley.

03-00:11:21 Warrin: Right. And so do you continue with POSSO?

03-00:11:29 Dutra: No. After a bit I indicated to them that I was looking for some more direct involvement in the community, and—

03-00:11:38 Warrin: With people.

03-00:11:39 Dutra: That’s right, that’s right. And the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce seemed like a better vehicle to do that.

03-00:11:46 Warrin: That was in San Jose, right?

03-00:11:48 Dutra: That was in San Jose. In fact, they had their office in the POSSO building in San Jose when I joined. Now, a very important thing, however, was that I was comfortable joining because they ran their business in English. And I say that because at times there is this still, “Well, we’re Portuguese, let’s do things in Portuguese.” And in that case, I didn’t feel that I was that good in English that I could contribute well.

03-00:12:25 Warrin: That good in Portuguese.

03-00:12:26 Dutra: I’m sorry, good in Portuguese that I could contribute that well in the organization. But since it was in English, I felt that I could make a real contribution. And I think that’s a factor, too, of how you get the young people involved, because some of the young people still speak Portuguese well, but fewer of them read or write Portuguese, and their primary language today is English.

03-00:12:52 Warrin: Yes, of course. So what were your activities with the Chamber of Commerce?

03-00:13:02 Dutra: Well, I sort of jumped in with both feet. I’m the type of person that if I’m going to be part of an organization, I’m going to contribute. And so I did. I got involved with the various activities, and within a year I was part of the executive committee, and within a couple years I was elected president of the chamber. So I really did get into it with both feet.

03-00:13:29 Warrin: Yeah, you had noted you were on the board of directors from ’93 to ’97, you were vice president in ’95, and president in ’96.

03-00:13:42 Dutra: Yes, that sounds right.

03-00:13:45 Warrin: And how long did you continue with the Chamber of Commerce?

03-00:13:48 Dutra: Well, pretty much a year or so after I was president, the Portuguese Heritage Society of California was looking for additional people to work on their board. And Joe Machado was the founding president, and he asked if I would become involved. And I thought, yeah, that would be an interesting switch where the chamber was more focusing on the business aspects of the community, as well as the cultural one, but primarily the business aspects of the community, while the Portuguese Heritage Society was really focusing on the history and the culture of the Portuguese, and I thought that would be fun.

03-00:14:43 Warrin: And could you describe the Heritage Society and what they do?

03-00:14:49 Dutra: Sure, sure. Well, the Portuguese Heritage Society was founded—I can’t remember now the year. I think it was 1993. And their objective was to really preserve the heritage and culture of the Portuguese immigrant community and their descendants in California. So that was their objective. And so their first major activity was to build a facility, a Portuguese museum, that would demonstrate that activity. I thought they did a very savvy thing in that they went to the city of San Jose and asked if they could build a Portuguese Historical Museum in History Park, San Jose, a public park. And they were granted the right to do that on the basis that once they built the museum the building would be dedicated to the City, and the Heritage Society would work as an affiliate to operate the museum. And they agreed to do that, and then in 1997 the museum was opened on the Dia de Portugal celebration of that year.

03-00:16:16 Warrin: And the building that it’s in appears to me to be an old building. Is it?

03-00:16:25 Dutra: Yeah. Well, no, it’s a replica.

03-00:16:27 Warrin: It’s a replica.

03-00:16:27 Dutra: It’s a replica. It’s a replica of the first Imperio [church of the Holy Spirit] in the Santa Clara Valley. It preceded the Five Wounds Church in the same general site that the current IES [Irmandade do Espírito Santo] chapel and building exist now.

03-00:16:47 Warrin: Okay. And you very quickly filled it with historical objects.

03-00:17:01 Dutra: Yes, yes. I think if you were to describe the development of that, first of all the building itself required a great deal of funding, as well as contributions in terms of time and labor of the community.

03-00:17:19 Warrin: And where did the funding and labor come from?

03-00:17:22 Dutra: The funding came from various sources, various sources. We got grants from the County of Santa Clara. They provided moneys. We got grants from various organizations from Portugal. They provided money. We had fundraising activities, and people contributed at various levels, and are recognized on a wall within the museum itself. And then from the standpoint of contributions, we went to the various Portuguese construction companies,

and they would either provide their equipment and labor free, or would do it at a very reduced cost.

03-00:18:14 Warrin: And what was your role in this, at this point?

03-00:18:18 Dutra: See, at that point, because that was 1993, I really got involved about 1997. I think I said later there I was with the Chamber of Commerce until 1996, so I just made that move. So I like to smile and say that the founding board did all the hard work, [laughter] and then I joined the Board of Directors.

03-00:18:46 Warrin: And who comprised the founding board?

03-00:18:51 Dutra: Well, Joe Machado was the founding president. Antonino Pasqual, who came to the United States as an immigrant when he was sixteen years of age, and had worked for Hewlett Packard, and also in the later years for the County, was a member of the board. We had some longtime other members that were native of San Jose. Edith Walter was one of those longtime members. I could go down the list in more detail, but, for example, there were the Pasquals from Santa Clara. There was Ray Gamma from Santa Clara. So it was really a cross-section of the people from both San Jose and Santa Clara.

03-00:19:46 Warrin: Is there any museum in the State of California that’s similar to this?

03-00:19:53 Dutra: Yes, there is. People in San Diego have had a museum for a number of years. I believe it actually preceded the museum in San Jose. I’d say the distinction is— Well, let me step back. When you say museum, yeah, that was it for San Diego, but a number of the fraternal societies had museum spaces within their own home offices. IDES [Irmandade do Divino Espírito Santo] in Hayward had it. The UPEC [União Portuguesa de Estado da Califórnia] had one. SPRSI [Sociedade Portuguesa da Rainha Santa Isabel] had one. But all of them tended to be, if you will, within the community. It wasn’t something that was well known to the broader community. So—

03-00:20:48 Warrin: Or accessible in the same way.

03-00:20:50 Dutra: Exactly.

03-00:20:51 Warrin: Because people go to this park, Kelley Park, for many reasons, and they come from any ethnic group, and they then just have the chance to wander in and take a look at this, because it’s right there in the middle of the park.

03-00:21:14 Dutra: Exactly, exactly. In addition to that, the History Park San Jose offers school programs, to support various educational programs within the school district. And so we’re one part of programs that talk about immigration and immigrants in California. So here, there are young children who attend with their school group, and they get some sort of an insight of who the Portuguese are. I want to make one more comment, if I may. I know I wander at times, but—

03-00:21:58 Warrin: Of course. No, this is all interesting.

03-00:22:00 Dutra: But one of the things I tend to do—we staff on weekends, and we all share the staffing, but when someone comes in I normally ask, “Do you know any people of Portuguese heritage?” And it’s a great opener, because it’s not unusual for people in the Santa Clara Valley to know people of Portuguese heritage. So it’s immediately a connect for them. And one of the delightful things is when we see younger people who say, “Oh, I’m of Portuguese descent,” and they might not have an active role in the Portuguese-American organizations, but they still have that connection and that pride, and that’s fun.

03-00:22:49 Warrin: And it opens up something for them.

03-00:22:51 Dutra: That’s right.

03-00:22:52 Warrin: Intellectually. So it looks like you moved up very quickly in the Heritage Society. You joined in ’97, is that right?

03-00:23:05 Dutra: Yeah, mm-hmm.

03-00:23:06 Warrin: And you became a director, and then by ’99 you were president.

03-00:23:12 Dutra: See, I was just grabbing for power. [laughter]

03-00:23:17 Warrin: Well, somebody was looking for you.

03-00:23:19 Dutra: That’s right, that’s right. Joe Machado’s favorite thing is every time we reelect officers every three years, and his comment is often, “Well, we’d like you to run for reelection, and we’ll double your pay.” And, of course, I can’t figure out if doubling zero comes up with any significant digit. [laughter]

03-00:23:43 Warrin: But it sounds impressive.

03-00:23:44 Dutra: Yeah!

03-00:23:46 Warrin: So you continue as president of the Heritage Society.

03-00:23:49 Dutra: Yes. I’m in the second year of this three-year term now.

03-00:23:54 Warrin: And so, to move on, the Dia de Portugal, you got involved in that quite early, also.

03-00:24:07 Dutra: Yes, yes. Again, it’s just another path. Somehow I learned of the Luso- American Education Foundation (LAEF), and felt that its objectives were very good, and I thought I would like to support that, too. So I became a member of the Foundation, and they had a lifetime membership that you could pay $50 a year for until it was paid, or that type of thing. So I joined that, and—

03-00:24:38 Warrin: About what year would that have been?

03-00:24:39 Dutra: Oh, I wish I could tell you. I’ve—

03-00:24:42 Warrin: Somewhere in the early nineties, perhaps.

03-00:24:45 Dutra: Yeah, yeah. And within that, then, I was asked if I would participate in the board, and since it was a once a month kind of thing I felt that it was something I could handle, along with the responsibilities that I had with the museum. And so I joined, and at some point became Director of Publicity or that type of thing. And—

03-00:25:14 Warrin: You’ve noted 2000 to 2004. What would that entail?

03-00:25:21 Dutra: Well, we, of course—we meaning LAEF—its programs were to raise funds for scholarships, and maintain strong contact and relationships with the cultural aspects in Portugal. And so my publicity role was to participate in providing publicity for events and activities that were held. One of the things that made that much easier was that there was a full-time administrative person there. Milu Senna was there at the time, and she was a very, very efficient young lady.

03-00:26:11 Warrin: That helps a lot when you have an administrative person in an organization.

03-00:26:14 Dutra: Exactly, and this is one of the things that we’re finding with the Portuguese Museum is that we’re finding ourselves stretched in some activities, particularly as the Dia de Portugal festival grows. Now, as I was part of the LAEF, it was the organization that initiated the Dia de Portugal celebrations in California. I believe it was 1963, they— [actually 1966]

03-00:26:43 Warrin: It was very early, yes.

03-00:26:44 Dutra: Yes, I think it was 1963. They held an anniversary, and with that celebrated Dia de Portugal. And they became, in effect, the coordinating body for the annual Dia de Portugal celebrations. The plan on that was that each year a community in California would take the responsibility for holding the Dia de Portugal celebration.

03-00:27:18 Warrin: Yeah, as I recall the initial one was in Santa Barbara.

03-00:27:22 Dutra: Well, see, you know better than I, because I don’t remember that, but that sounds reasonable.

03-00:27:26 Warrin: I was there.

03-00:27:26 Dutra: And they moved it every year. One of the frustrations with that was it was hard to get momentum in terms of recognition of Dia de Portugal. And we reached a point as a California community that with some coordination we could do multiple activities during quote-unquote “Portugal Week,” the week that surrounded June 10th. And so rather than having the quote-unquote “major celebration” in different parts every year with varying levels of success, we offered and suggested that organizations could do their own thing, and we had our opening of the museum on Dia de Portugal week in 1997.

03-00:28:29 Warrin: Rather than having people dragged off to Modesto or someplace, yeah.

03-00:28:35 Dutra: That’s right. That’s exactly right. And we will get up to 7,000 people in one day in our Dia de Portugal celebration, and I’m very doubtful that any of those that were in a community for just one year had that large a turnout. So I think we were able to do that. But at the same time, for example, the LAEF still has its annual anniversary dinner during Portuguese Week. There’s a golf tournament that takes place in the Valley during Portuguese Week. There have

been events in San Diego. So I think in doing that we are starting to see communities adopting the idea that we will do something during Portuguese Week, and I think that’s a healthy step.

03-00:29:31 Warrin: Right. And I would imagine Sacramento, San Diego, and—

03-00:29:35 Dutra: Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah. Sacramento, well, we haven’t had a Dia de Portugal celebration as such there, but they certainly would represent a potential, absolutely.

03-00:29:49 Warrin: Yes. So let’s see. The—

03-00:29:58 Dutra: Excuse me. So we had been talking about the LAEF there, and we sort of segued into Dia de Portugal, but I wanted to be sure that people recognize that the pioneers for the Dia de Portugal celebrations was the LAEF [Luso- American Education Foundation].

03-00:30:15 Warrin: Yes. Yes, of course. And you also, about this time, took on the advisory committee of San Jose State, the Portuguese Studies Program. You’d been working there.

03-00:30:30 Dutra: [laughter] See, I don’t have enough sense—

03-00:30:34 Warrin: To say no.

03-00:30:35 Dutra: —to stop getting involved! Again, that was an example of pioneering work done by the community itself. What I would call the post-generation Capelinhos people wanted to have Portuguese as a language being taught at San Jose State. And I think I’m representing this correctly: they agreed to run a class in beginning Portuguese, and it was a nun from the community that taught the class at San Jose State.

03-00:31:19 Warrin: What year was that? Do you recall?

03-00:31:21 Dutra: Yes. [laughter]

03-00:31:22 Warrin: That goes back quite a while.

03-00:31:23 Dutra: Yeah, it goes back. Yeah, it does go.

03-00:31:24 Warrin: As a very minor program.

03-00:31:26 Dutra: Yeah, yeah, yeah. People like Antonino Pasqual were still in college at the time, and Decio Oliveira, who is a very, very prominent member of the community, was part of that organizing group. So yeah, it was quite a while back. And from that, a proposal came about that an endowment fund would be established, and the proceeds from that endowment fund would go to supporting a Portuguese studies program. And the university agreed, then, to also staff and support one class each semester. I think that that was a great start. That was a great start, yeah.

03-00:32:25 Warrin: A rather unusual situation, though. For instance, in Hayward, where we had a small program, the university paid for the classes. At San Jose State—I don’t know how it is now, but the community had to fund, to some extent, the program in comparison with the university itself funding Spanish and French.

03-00:32:58 Dutra: Yeah. So I think the distinction there was the fact that San Jose State agreed to fund a class, and that the funding for any other classes would have to come from the proceeds of the endowment fund. The reality was that the proceeds from the endowment fund didn’t allow for an expansion of the programs over the years, and about two years ago the rules of the endowment fund were changed so that both principal and proceeds or interest could be used to staff for classes, to teach additional classes. So that provided more opportunities for more classes.

03-00:33:50 Warrin: But it does mean that the principal is being reduced.

03-00:33:53 Dutra: Yes. [laughter] Strange you should mention that, as they say. But the counterpoint was the advisory committee began playing a greater role. And three years ago, for example, the Portuguese Studies Program had a Vindimas Night at a winery in the South County.

03-00:34:22 Warrin: And what’s a Vindimas Night?

03-00:34:23 Dutra: Oh, vindimas is really the wine harvest time. And so it would be the celebration of the wine harvest. And there was even a bus arranged, or buses arranged, where people could not only arrange for the dinner, pay for the dinner, they could also then have bus transportation, which I thought was a very good idea. You could relax a little bit more, enjoy the wine tasting, that type of thing. And then they had auctions, silent auctions and other things like that. So there’s been a strong effort with an active advisory committee to have other events and activities that would bring in funds, as well as to more

actively involve the students in the Portuguese Studies Program. And there are a number of young people in the Portuguese Studies Program now that are participating on the Advisory Board and looking for activities within the school community to feature the Portuguese culture.

03-00:35:44 Warrin: And Deolinda Adao is teaching down there.

03-00:35:46 Dutra: That’s right, Deolinda Adao, who is part of the staff of the University of California. She took over as the instructor of the program after Virginia de Luz Vieira, after she retired. And prior to that, for many years Heraldo da Silva was the instructor there. So he and Virginia did a great deal in keeping the program going with minimum funding.

03-00:36:30 Warrin: Yes, they certainly did. You made a reference to the post-Capelinhos generation. Could you explain what that is?

03-00:36:38 Dutra: Ah. Well, yes, yes. One of the characteristics of the nine islands [of the Azores] that are located in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, is they are peaks of volcanos. And the whole history of the people that lived in the Azores have been there have been earthquakes and volcanic eruptions that have had varying effects on the whole community. Well, one of the islands is called the island of Faial, and in 1957 there was a volcanic eruption that took place just off the end of the island.

03-00:37:23 Warrin: Off the western end of the island.

03-00:37:25 Dutra: Yeah, off the western end of the island. If you look at a topography map of Faial, you can see the series of volcanoes that erupted, going in a westerly direction, that had formed the island. That volcanic eruption lasted a full year. And, in fact, on one evening there was—and I can’t remember the exact number, but there were over a hundred separate earthquakes that happened within a twenty-four-hour period. People were terrified that the island was going to sink and disappear. And, in fact, many ships came into the harbor, and people were saying, “Well, maybe they’re going to move us off the island,” that type of thing. Well, that didn’t happen, but there was a great deal of ash that came from the volcano. It went through various stages where there were rocks going up as well as ash and other things. But the ash pretty much just destroyed whole areas of the island, and people were left without their livelihood. And so there were a number of things done to facilitate the recuperation of the island, and one of the things that happened was that then Senator Kennedy was involved—

03-00:38:58 Warrin: John Kennedy, yes.

03-00:38:59 Dutra: The senator, yes, John Kennedy, who became President Kennedy. He and another senator co-sponsored an immigration bill that allowed 2,000 families from the island of Faial to emigrate to the United States.

03-00:39:16 Warrin: And now this was a particular period. Up to this point where between the early 1920s and 1957, when immigration from Southern Europe was greatly restricted, this was the first step in opening up immigration from around the world into the United States. It was important in itself, but it led to great reforms in immigration policy.

03-00:39:57 Dutra: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, a somewhat derogatory statement was made that the immigration policy starting in 1924 or so discriminated against the PIGs, and the PIGs were the Portuguese, the Italian, the Greeks, and the Spanish. [laughter] And I thought, what a nice acronym to use to—

03-00:40:29 Warrin: I hadn’t heard that before. That’s a good one, but very true. And we began at that point to greatly modify immigration policy into the United States.

03-00:40:44 Dutra: Exactly. The following year immigration policies were greatly modified, and it allowed people in the United States to sponsor families from various foreign countries. And within the Portuguese, the letter, in effect taking responsibility for a family, that would come from the Azores was a carta de chamada, the letter of calling. And I’ve read a number of different things where people have said, “That was certainly just such a wonderful thing where family members then took responsibility to bring families over, above the 2,000 families.”

03-00:41:36 Warrin: Very much above the 2,000 families, from what I understand, that more people came in because of this legislation, or following this legislation, than were inhabitants of the island.

03-00:41:52 Dutra: Exactly, exactly. In fact, the islands suffered, because what happened was— we won’t call it a brain drain but an age drain, because the people that tended to move were the middle age group, who were still able to work, were better educated than the old people. The younger children would come along with them, but there were a lot of children that stayed behind also. It was a marvelous piece of legislation in terms of providing opportunity.

03-00:42:33 Warrin: Yes, and says something for John F. Kennedy.

03-00:42:40 Dutra: Yes. Yes. Most houses—this is a joke, again, somewhat, but most houses prior to that period of time had a picture of FDR in what we call the family room, the eating room in the tenement. And then when John Kennedy’s work—then his picture was next to FDR.

03-00:43:09 Warrin: And are you talking about New Bedford here?

03-00:43:11 Dutra: Yes, that’s New Bedford. That’s right. New Bedford certainly was more of a working class, Democratic society. There’s much more difference. There’s more difference in California in terms of the distribution of political sympathies within the Portuguese-American community.

03-00:43:34 Warrin: Right, particularly when you’re talking about rural America and rural California, versus urban California.

03-00:43:47 Dutra: Exactly. That’s a perfect example.

03-00:43:49 Warrin: Yeah, Oakland versus Turlock or something like this.

03-00:43:53 Dutra: That’s right. That’s right. That’s always a very interesting opportunity for discussion, after you—

03-00:44:03 Warrin: Right, because we see the representatives to Congress from the Central Valley often representing the Republican Party and not the Democratic Party.

03-00:44:14 Dutra: Sure, sure, and Dennis Cardoza, who just finished his term, was a Democrat. Nunes is a Republican. You’re quite right.

03-00:44:24 Warrin: Yeah. You also have been on a committee for the King Library at San Jose State. Could you talk a little bit about that?

03-00:44:34 Dutra: See, I never learn. I never learn. I think the people that need the credit for really moving that forward were the Goulartes, Lionel and Bernie Goularte. They took a leadership role in that, and then other members of the community worked with the King Library, and they put together a Portuguese Cultural Center, in effect set up a library area that contained books on Portugal in English and also, as well, in Portuguese. And Lionel and Bernie not only contributed to that, Lionel acquired books for that. So they really were the spearheads for that.

03-00:45:26 Warrin: So the Goulartes actually purchased books and donated them to the library?

03-00:45:29 Dutra: They also got books that were donated from Portugal, that type of thing also.

03-00:45:38 Warrin: So is there a separate room in the library?

03-00:45:40 Dutra: It’s a separate section on the fifth floor of the library, and the sign says Portuguese Cultural Center there, so I think it was, again, in our mind, a way of recognizing a somewhat unrecognized ethnic group in California.

03-00:46:04 Warrin: In one of its population centers.

03-00:46:07 Dutra: Exactly.

03-00:46:07 Warrin: Active population center.

03-00:46:09 Dutra: Exactly, exactly. So the idea that San Jose State has both a Portuguese Studies program as the university, and then the library itself has a Portuguese cultural center, is, I think, an important recognition that the Portuguese have and continue to make some important contributions to our society.

03-00:46:38 Warrin: Yes. Well, that’s obviously important. And, in that respect, a great contribution is the Portuguese Heritage Publications. And again, you couldn’t say no, and how did you end up joining the—?

03-00:46:58 Dutra: Well, see, that was part of my transition away from the Chamber, also, because that project started as a committee of the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce with their first book, the Holy Ghost Festas book. And it was a marvelous, just marvelous first example of community cooperation, because there were over a hundred researchers that provided information about the Holy Ghost festivals in California.

03-00:47:40 Warrin: Who organized that, and how could you get a hundred people? How could you put that together and—?

03-00:47:58 Dutra: Sure. Well, as I say, it started as a committee within the Chamber of Commerce. And Tony Goulart, who had been the first president of the Chamber, was still very involved in the Chamber, and agreed to be the project director for that project. And Tony is a very talented guy. He has knowledge

and connections within the community. It is extensive. And he was able, then, to attract people in wonderful ways. We went to it as we went to all of the Holy Ghost societies in the state and said, “Hey, we’re putting a book together about the Holy Ghost festas. We’d like your society to be represented.” And almost without exception organizations said sure. And then it just took birddogging. And some of the stories were in Portuguese and had to be translated to English. And that was another example of a determination to say, “We’ve got to have our history in English so that the following generations will be able to read and understand about their culture.”

03-00:49:35 Warrin: Easily, without having to—

03-00:49:37 Dutra: That’s right, to look at—

03-00:49:37 Warrin: —deal with a dictionary or something like this.

03-00:49:39 Dutra: That’s right. So he was truly a very strong project director. I don’t think the book was yet published, but even before the book was published it became obvious to the Chamber that that kind of a project could overwhelm the Chamber.

03-00:50:05 Warrin: Yes, of course.

03-00:50:06 Dutra: And so the decision was made that it would spin off into a separate organization, was incorporated, and the first book came out as a result of the work of both the Chamber and the Portuguese Heritage Publications.

03-00:50:24 Warrin: And what year was this that it split off?

03-00:50:27 Dutra: I’d have to look at my book.

03-00:50:32 Warrin: Approximately?

03-00:50:33 Dutra: Let’s see. Seven years ago, I guess. Do this: I’ll look it up and I’ll let you know, and you can make that as a notation.

03-00:50:46 Warrin: I’ll add that in. So it wasn’t that long ago.

03-00:50:51 Dutra: No. [Notation: 2003]

03-00:50:53 Warrin: How many years did it function as a subgroup of the Chamber of Commerce?

03-00:50:58 Dutra: It split off even before the book was published. So at that point there was an agreement on the transfer of funds, and those kind of things, and then the book was published as Portuguese Heritage Publications.

03-00:51:15 Warrin: And who are the principal actors in the Heritage Publications?

03-00:51:22 Dutra: Tony was and still is. He has a tremendous interest in writing, in researching, that type of thing, just a tremendous amount of energy for doing that. And so he’s been a project director for a number of the books—for example, a book on the people who came to the United States after the 1957 volcanic eruption.

03-00:51:53 Warrin: And what was the title of that?

03-00:51:57 Dutra: Capelinhos: A Volcano of Synergies — Azorean Immigration to America.

03-00:52:19 Warrin: And what are some of the other publications?

03-00:52:24 Dutra: The other publication they had, the Portuguese in agriculture book [The Portuguese Californians: Immigrants in Agriculture] that came from a fellow, Al Graves, who did his master’s and his PhD in the Portuguese in California.

03-00:52:43 Warrin: Years before.

03-00:52:44 Dutra: Years before. Yes, years before. And well researched, lots of good data, but—

03-00:52:51 Warrin: Lots of good photos, too.

03-00:52:52 Dutra: Well, see, what you had was marvelous research done, and then what you did with Portuguese Heritage Publications, you put the human story behind that. And so that was the research that the pictures came from, and the examples of the various families, and that type of thing. So as a research paper, it was great, but it would be used as a research source. As a book, it was a well- documented history of the Portuguese in agriculture in California.

03-00:53:39 Warrin: Filled with very interesting photos. Not a coffee table book, but—

03-00:53:44 Dutra: Yes, that’s what it is for us. In fact, I’d taken mine upstairs, and I have it over here, but I’d taken mine upstairs because I put our latest family album on that. But until that album came along, it was one of our coffee table books.

03-00:54:02 Warrin: Right, but a valuable coffee table book.

03-00:54:04 Dutra: Yeah, that’s right. But to read. Yeah, to read, absolutely.

03-00:54:07 Warrin: Right. And also a book on California shore whaling [The Portuguese Shore Whalers of California, 1854-1904].

03-00:54:13 Dutra: Yes. There’s another one, a well-researched book by a fellow [David Bertão] who developed a history of doing that. He was not an academician. He was a fellow that, last time I know, was working in the post office, but he developed this passion about the shore whaling in California, did a tremendous job. And, again, we worked with him to put the pictures and the other things together to make it even more interesting.

03-00:54:48 Warrin: And in the same way some deep research, along with some wonderful photographs to bring it all to life.

03-00:54:55 Dutra: Exactly, exactly. And then there’s a whole section of books that we’ve done that are novels, or reminiscences of a family. Let’s see now, the exact title of that—something in a barrel, Pauline Stonehill’s book about—

[A Barrelful of Memories: Stories of My Azorean Family]

03-00:55:21 Warrin: Right, which is a memoir.

03-00:55:22 Dutra: A memoir kind of thing. And so it talks about incidents all the way from her great-grandparents into her growing up in the Valley. And it’s a marvelous book. It truly is. The thing I feel about it is it tells about life, warts and all. There’s joy in the simplicity of the life, and sometimes the difficulty, and yet there’s the sorrows associated with that, and how the difficulty in the life affected people and their personalities and their relationships and that kind of thing. It’s really a moving book. There’s another one that—

03-00:56:12 Warrin: I think we should stop here, take a break.

03-00:56:15 Dutra: Okay.

[Audio File 4]

02-00:00:07 Warrin: So here we are, back from our break, and we were talking about the Portuguese Heritage Publications. And Al, you had some thoughts.

02-00:00:18 Dutra: Yes, yes. I am really not clear as to whether Tony Goulart was the first president of Portuguese Heritage Publications or whether Jose Rodrigues was. But in any case, Tony was very involved in some of the transition, incorporation of the Portuguese Heritage Publications. And Jose had taken a leadership role for a number of years, in spite of an illness that he had, and really kept us moving, and we were very successful in producing a number of additional books.

02-00:01:17 Warrin: And who is the current president?

02-00:01:21 Dutra: Oh, Henrique Dinis, yeah, is the current president. And Henrique has brought to the organization a very businesslike approach to identifying projects, evaluating what we should do with them, setting up objectives in terms of dates to get the items published, and marketing strategies and goals. So in addition, then, to doing many of the things that a president does, I think he’s added a whole new facet to the business.

02-00:02:01 Warrin: What is his background?

02-00:02:03 Dutra: Henrique came to the United States as an adult, as an immigrant, and—

02-00:02:11 Warrin: From where?

02-00:02:12 Dutra: From the Azores, from Terceira, I think. But yeah, so he came after his military experience in Portugal. He came to the United States, and really did some of the things that the Portuguese urban immigrant would do. He went to work in one of the factories or one of the companies in Silicon Valley, and then started on the floor, so to speak, assembling stuff. And then just then continued to move up, and take on more responsibilities. And he’s been in some key positions in electronic companies here in the Bay Area. So he’s—

02-00:03:07 Warrin: And what kind of education did he bring with him, or did he follow up here?

02-00:03:11 Dutra: No, I was trying to remember whether— You’ll have to check that, but I think he continued his education as he was working here in California, but he was

well educated as he came to the United States in the Portuguese education system. And very often I have to smile at what I call the one-paragraph sentences of the Portuguese. The traditional Portuguese will start a sentence, and then they will have fourteen ideas, separated by commas, all the way through the kind of thing. And, of course, the US style is to be more succinct in terms of thoughts become a paragraph, and then the next paragraph is something new. Well, Henrique has what I would call the American style in terms of his writing, but I’ve had opportunities to edit some stuff that is the Portuguese style, and it always brings a smile to my face.

02-00:04:27 Warrin: A bit of lack of organization, perhaps.

02-00:04:32 Dutra: Yeah, well, no, I think it’s the style. It’s just that the—

02-00:04:34 Warrin: Just the style.

02-00:04:34 Dutra: Yeah, it’s just that they bring the next idea, which is a logical one to the previous, but because in our business transactions and writing we would then take the idea and start a new paragraph, and these are commas and commas and commas, and so you follow this little lily pad. [laughter]

02-00:05:03 Warrin: Oh, okay. So you had talked about some of the early books that have been published by Portuguese Heritage Publications. How many books in all? Just a rough idea.

02-00:05:21 Dutra: Yeah. Let’s see if I’ve got anything. Whoops, I don’t have that little booklet with me. I don’t have that list, but as I say, we have the books that we call the research things, and we touched on, I think, all of them. Then we have others that are novels, and there’s probably four, six of those.

02-00:05:47 Warrin: Excuse me. Do you have this pamphlet around? Would you like to go get it?

02-00:05:52 Dutra: Yeah, let me see what I did with that list, see if I have it. [break in audio]

02-00:06:03 Warrin: So Al, you were talking about the publications of the Heritage Publications, and—

02-00:06:13 Dutra: Yeah, I just went upstairs, and I took a look at the first page of the website, and our books are in categories: Heritage collection, what we call the pioneer collection, fiction, and then a collection in English or Portuguese, poems and

things like that. So those are the major categories we have. In the Heritage collection we have six major books in that. The first was, of course, the Holy Ghost Festas. And then, not in any particular sequence, after that we had the Capelinhos, and it was also done in a Portuguese version, because of the value it would be to the Azoreans to have that perspective, because it did include some of the experiences of the immigrants as they came here. So that came out that way, and then it also came out as a package. We had The Power of the Spirit, which is a relatively new book, and it talks about the contributions that the Portuguese have made in establishing churches, primarily Catholic churches, in California. Like any immigrant group, they brought their customs and their beliefs along with them, and over the period of time built a number of churches.

02-00:08:04 Warrin: And in that respect, you say primarily Catholic. Were there some other churches?

02-00:08:11 Dutra: Interestingly enough, yes. There was a Methodist church in Oakland. There’s an interesting Methodist group that originated in Madeira.

02-00:08:29 Warrin: The Exiles.

02-00:08:30 Dutra: Yeah, the Protestants sought converts in Madeira, and, of course, they were not greeted with open arms by either the church or the government. And eventually a group of them decided to leave, and they first went to, I believe, Trinidad.

02-00:08:51 Warrin: Yeah, that’s right.

02-00:08:53 Dutra: And then, following that, to Illinois. And then some of them came to California, and others came to California via Hawaii, because there were a number of people from Madeira that went to Hawaii first. And so they established a Portuguese-speaking church in East Oakland that, in effect, competed with Mary Help of Christians, the Catholic church that was relatively nearby, as well as St. Joseph’s Church, which was a Portuguese National church, and was closed in 1965 when the characteristics of Oakland had changed considerably. Yeah, so the pastor’s name was Vieira, and he was not greeted with open arms, should I say, from the viewpoint of the church, of course, because he was taking away Catholics to another sect.

02-00:10:07 Warrin: And perhaps the community itself was a little hesitant about accepting these Protestants?

02-00:10:18 Dutra: I would say so, but I have no firsthand sense of that. But I would expect that was the case. There was a write-up on that one by José Rodrigues, and in it he, if I understood it correctly, said the Methodist church tended to try to move the people to assimilate into the American culture, perhaps more aggressively than the Catholic church did, because the Catholic church just was easy to stay with the customs that they had. But that’s the only reference I’ve had in terms of differences in which they promoted their particular— So then we were saying the Power of the Spirit, and that is relatively new, but already followed by California’s Portuguese Politicians, the fact that there has been early Portuguese involvement at the state level that has been documented in this book, state and national level. However—

02-00:11:36 Warrin: John Vasconcellos, for instance.

02-00:11:37 Dutra: Yes, Vasconcellos is an excellent example of that. There was no attempt to do it below the state level. For example, who was the first Portuguese mayor, that kind of stuff, did not reach that far down. But it’s a relatively new book. We’ve talked about the Capelinhos, the Holy Ghost Festas. We’ve talked about that. The Portuguese Californians: Immigrants in Agriculture, we talked about that one, and the Portuguese Shore Whalers, we’ve touched on that. So that represents what we call the Heritage collection. They tend to be hardcover, tend to be larger than typical book size. And I’ll correct myself there: they’re not the traditional coffee table kind of book, but they contain a great deal of information. In my case, I use it enough that I normally keep it on my coffee table, rather than my bookshelf.

02-00:12:49 Warrin: And it has pictures, so it’s certainly appropriate.

02-00:12:51 Dutra: That’s right. Excellently illustrated, right. Now, the pioneer collection was A Barrelful of Memories by Pauline Stonehill, and I consider that to be top notch. The Egg in the Water Glass, the reminiscence of a girl growing up in the thirties and forties in the Valley, agricultural area.

02-00:13:16 Warrin: What was her name?

02-00:13:18 Dutra: I don’t have it written down here, but I’ll have to pass on that one [Olivia Andrade-Lage].

02-00:13:24 Warrin: That’s okay.

02-00:13:25 Dutra: My son says I have a memory like the old-fashioned flash bulb on a camera, you know. It’s poof, and it’s gone.

02-00:13:33 Warrin: It pops, yeah.

02-00:13:33 Dutra: Poof, and it’s gone. Lage. I think that’s her last name. Anyway, Footprints in the Soil, and this is a Portuguese Californian remembers, and that was the one that Sylvia’s aunt [Rose Peters Emery] wrote, and that’s very detailed. It was growing up in San Ramon. It was amazing; the gal wrote the book when she was in her late eighties or her early nineties, and she had just an absolutely detailed memory. I never, even at my prime with memory, had a memory like that, so—

02-00:14:18 Warrin: Right, I know. And she was very lucid when Deolinda and I interviewed her, and she was in her nineties, and very lucid person.

02-00:14:32 Dutra: Yeah. And if you read the book, you just know. I mean, she could describe the flowers that were just in their front yard next to their kale plants, you know, things like that. Yeah, she’s a great one. And then the one on The Portuguese Presence in California. And that was one that was produced earlier by Mayone Dias. And we felt that it was an important enough succinct summary that we would print it and make it as widely available as we could to schools and other areas if they wanted to have a special section on the Portuguese in California. One section that was a fairly large part of the book was the San Diego tuna industry, and its role in World War II, and how the boats were commandeered by—I don’t know if that’s the exact word, but obtained by the US government and used as military naval ships during World War II.

02-00:15:48 Warrin: His original book, I think, was in Portuguese, if I’m not mistaken.

02-00:15:52 Dutra: Yeah, I believe you’re right.

02-00:15:54 Warrin: And so this is an English translation.

02-00:15:56 Dutra: Yeah, this is an English translation, yes.

02-00:15:58 Warrin: And expansion, presumably, yes.

02-00:16:00 Dutra: So, again, the intent is to make those kind of things available for the succeeding generations. Yeah, I’m in the, I’d say, typical situation in that I did

not bring my children up with strong references to their Portuguese culture, although Ginny had them do all of their heritage stuff on the Portuguese side of the family, because it was very straightforward to do that, but I did not. And so their interest in the Portuguese culture is because I got involved in my later years, but as they were growing up I was not involved.

02-00:16:49 Warrin: They weren’t immersed in it at that point.

02-00:16:51 Dutra: That’s right. I use the phraseology my grandparents were immigrants. My parents were Portuguese-American; they worked with both languages and with that. I’m a third generation American of Portuguese descent. I don’t hyphenate what I am. And my kids are American. Ginny’s side is Heinz 57. So it’s somewhat a typical example of how that takes place. So these kind of books, while they get copies of all of them, they will have something in their library that maybe they have some appreciation for and read more often, or look at more often later on, and maybe my grandchildren and now great- grandchildren, it’ll trickle down to them, also.

02-00:17:53 Warrin: The record is there, and presumably if your children have wanted to connect with you in recent decades they get tempted to move into the Portuguese sphere a bit.

02-00:18:12 Dutra: Sure, sure. Yeah, the linguiça booth for the Dia de Portugal is run by the Portuguese Museum, and it’s staffed and organized by the Dutra kids, as they call it. So that is their direct connection to that. But I think that’s important to realize that one of the important things is make it available for the future generations. The next group, the fiction, one was A Cow for the Holy Spirit, and that’s a fiction thing. Rose King wrote that one, and that’s a very touching story. And I No Longer Like Chocolates. This was written by Álamo Oliveira, and it’s an elderly immigrant in a rest home looking back at his life, and I No Longer Like Chocolates is the fact that his children, who don’t visit as often as he would like, will also bring chocolates, because he used to love chocolates. So to me, it’s a little darker than I see the— For example, I contrast that to A Barrelful of Memories. I see Barrelful of Memories having the joyful part, and this one tends to have the darker part. It’s interesting that that was written by someone who still lives in the Azores, and I don’t—

02-00:19:59 Warrin: But he spends a lot of time here in the Valley, and he has family here.

02-00:20:03 Dutra: Oh, yes, and he has lots of relatives here, and he knows a lot about it, and he’s a very well educated and respected writer.

02-00:20:12 Warrin: And a poet, yes.

02-00:20:13 Dutra: Yeah, poet, sure, yes. That’s absolutely the case. But I just contrast it in that it was one that I read it and didn’t say, “You’ve got to read this one.” You know how that is? “You’ve got to read this one.” When I read Barrelful of Memories, I say that to everyone, “You’ve got to read this one.” Okay, Décima Ilha are books primarily in Portuguese consisting of poetry, research and music. There are three books of poetry by Decio Oliveira, who writes under the name of Machado Ribeiro; another, O Cântico do Silêncio, the Song of Silence, by José Luís da Silva, and Beijo de Abelha, Kiss of the Bee, by Maria das Dores Beirão, as well as research works. Also, we documented the International Conference on the Holy Spirit. We did that three or four years ago.

02-00:21:22 Warrin: Where did it take place?

02-00:21:23 Dutra: It took place in San Jose. We used the IES hall, and had large numbers of people from other countries, not just from the United States there. Very well done, and the book is worth seeing. It’s a pictorial book. That one, you could call it a coffee table book, because it’s just marvelous pictures, but not a lot of background kind of information. So you can see, there’s been a very, very productive organization, again, based on all volunteers. It’s just all volunteers. We had some of the editing work. We paid for the editing work. On some of them we paid for the layout work. In other cases we—meaning probably Tony—did the layout work ourselves. So we helped other people get stuff printed.

02- 00:22:38 Warrin: That’s very difficult, doing layout work, of even editing, the final product.

02- 00:22:44 Dutra: Yeah, yeah, that’s right, and that’s a big effort, it sure is. All right, so that gives you a sense of the productivity of the group, and I think it’s due to a few very key people who dedicated a tremendous amount of time to make it happen.

02- 00:23:07 Warrin: I think you have a new project about oral histories of immigrants?

02- 00:23:16 Dutra: Well, what it is, yeah, it’s really interesting immigrant stories is what it is. Its objective is not to just provide biographies of people, or not to do summaries of people who have necessarily had financial success, but stories that tell about people’s, if you will, emotional successes, and failures.

02- 00:23:55 Warrin: And travails of some sort.

02- 00:23:57 Dutra: That’s right, that’s right, that’s right. That type of thing, so you get a sense of what life was like in the twists and the turns. We sent out a sample, and it was written by Henrique Dinis, about his relatives, and the gist of it is that his grandfather and two of his brothers did the typical thing—came to California story—went to work in different dairies, eventually formed one dairy that the three of them worked together. And they had the typical long days, seven day a week kind of thing. And their relief was the Holy Ghost festa that was in their community every year. But all three of them did not go to the festival.

02- 00:25:02 Warrin: I was just going to say that. They had to take turns.

02- 00:25:05 Dutra: They took turns, so they would go to the festival once every three years. And since they only had one suit, therefore they had to adjust the suit that they used for the pant length, the waist, and the jacket size as best they could.

02- 00:25:23 Warrin: But they had a year to do it.

02- 00:25:25 Dutra: Huh? They had—?

02- 00:25:26 Warrin: They had a year to do it.

02- 00:25:27 Dutra: [laughter] Yeah, that’s right. That’s true. That’s true. But, like everybody else, they probably took it out the closet and dusted it a week before the festa to see how much everyone had changed, that kind of thing. But I think that’s the twist of the story, because the rest of the story is clearly the classic immigrant story in the dairy industry. And, in effect, the fact that two of them [his grandfather and a brother] went back to the Azores—they hadn’t married all those years they were in the United States—they went back to the Azores, they married there. And so theirs was typical of the time period. People would very often try to make enough that they’d go back and live the rest of their lives.

02- 00:26:29 Warrin: Right, and here was obviously a very solitary life, working on an isolated dairy seven days a week, and—

02- 00:26:39 Dutra: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I find that to be just almost impossible to understand. It truly is. I mean, it was just determination. But the determination was for “Someday I’ll go back,” and these days I don’t think there’s that

attitude. Not very many people in California look to “Someday I’ll go back.” I think there’s a little bit more of that in the East Coast, but not here.

02- 00:27:11 Warrin: Well, to the extent that immigrants become acculturated, they tend not to return permanently, whereas someone working in a factory in New Bedford or working on an isolated dairy in the Valley doesn’t become acculturated. Their primary language is still Portuguese. Their contacts are very limited. And they’re looking forward to going back to where they were.

02- 00:27:46 Dutra: Yeah. I think there are factors that might be overriding in comparing the East Coast to the West Coast, year round weather on the East Coast as compared to the Azores is terrible. They have the winters, and they have the humid summers on the East Coast, that kind of thing. So it’s not that kind of, “Wow, it’s really great.” And so this is an argument for saying, “Gee, I can remember. If I could have a house, and the weather’s nice, and I can relax, and I can enjoy the rest of my life.” So they say that, and they think that it’s a great idea, and then when it’s time to make that decision—of course, they’ve been saying it, but they say to their children, “Well, we’re going to go back to the Azores,” and then they realize that their children are not going to go back, or the grandchildren are not going to go back. So all of a sudden they’ve got this split situation. Now, those in California, we have the good weather, and so what many today do if they’ve still got property from their parents or other people in the Azores, and they have over the years refurbished those houses, and they’ll go back—and it amazes me, sometimes they’ll go back for two to three months in the summer, even though my thought of having a job and leaving the job for two to three months just blows my mind, but apparently they have the kind of work people can cover for them or whatever it might be.

02- 00:29:31 Warrin: And also retirees who—

02- 00:29:34 Dutra: That’s right. Exactly. Exactly.

02- 00:29:35 Warrin: —go back, spend some time, maybe six months there, but maintain the contact here, partial year here, partial year there.

02- 00:29:45 Dutra: Yeah, have a home here, and have a home in the Azores. There’s a number of people I know that when we were running our escorted tours I would see them, because we would go for the Festival of Sanjoaninas, and a lot of them would go for the Festival of Sanjoaninas, and I would see them year after year at the airport, and sometimes when I was in town.

02- 00:30:10 Warrin: Yes. Well, this has been very interesting. Anything else that we’ve skipped here that you—

02- 00:30:21 Dutra: No, I appreciate the approach that you’ve taken in having us discuss this. And as I said to you earlier, it reminded me that I want to perhaps even flesh out some more of the experiences and do a vanity book about the experiences that we’ve discussed. My father, after my mother passed away—and I don’t remember whether I mentioned this before—after my mother passed away, my cousin’s wife used to visit him every morning on her daily walk, and at one point she suggested that he start writing down some of his remembrances of his life growing up and that kind of thing, and so he did on just the little notepads you use for letters, that kind of thing, and did it by hand. His handwriting is quite good, quite good, although he has a technique of capitalization that is random. [laughter] Words are capitalized because he just happened to want to capitalize them. But it is really a marvelous treasure, and I made copies of it for myself and all my children in his handwriting. I did not have it typed. I did not go through and do a spell check or anything like this. I just copied it, and then I bound it, and I gave it to the kids, and I have one myself. And it’s an absolute treasure.

02- 00:31:58 Warrin: Well, as your wife was just saying, she laments that her father or she hadn’t written down his frequently expressed memories of the past. You have the fortune of already having a publisher that should be willing to publish your memoirs, and so it’s just a matter of dedication.

02- 00:32:27 Dutra: Yeah, yeah, and this is giving me the incentive. But also, I just want to leave that as a message to those that might have to look at the experience that I have, to say, one, I hope that I follow through on what I plan to do, and secondly, I would suggest to them to start taking down some notes, and ask the questions before it’s too late to get the answers.

02- 00:32:59 Warrin: Right. Okay, well, thank you, Al.

[End of Interview]