1512 1512[COUJNCIL.]

FREMANTLE HOSPITAL. TEe-ilaftiv Tonur Exchange of Land. Wednesday, 2nd November, 1955. Hon E. M. DAVIES asked the Chief Secretary: CONTENTS. Page (1) With reference to the proposed new Assent to Blls; .. .. 1512 hospital at Fremantle, what action, if any. Questions : Crown lands, availability for has the Government taken to complete pastoral purposes .... I.. .. 1512 the arrangements with the Fremantle Fremantle hospital, exchange of land .. 1512 Council for the exchange of 40 acres of Pollee Force, (a) Resignations...... 1512 land at Hilton Park for certain small lots (b) Sergeant Kendall's position .. 1512 of Crown land? Billis: Health Act Amendment, 8r., passed .. 1513 (2) Is he aware that after a review of Administration Act Amendment, 2r. . 1513 probable requirements in 1965 it is re- Superannuation and Family Benefits vealed that approximately 670 general Act Amendment, Corn. 1514 beds will be required at that year? University Medical School, Teaching Hospitals, 2r...... f158 (3) Will he expedite the securing of the University Medical School, 2r., Corn., land with a view to plans for the new report...... 1517 hospital being prepared? State Government Insurance Office Act Amendment, St. 1519 The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: Constitution Acts Amendment (No. 2), (1) This is a matter which is being in- 2r...... 1523 vestigated by the Public Works Depart- Bank Holidays Act Amendment, 2r .. 1528 ment, and early finality has been re- Soil[ Conservation Act Amendment, 2r.. 1534 quested. (2) The department is aware that there is an increasing shortage of hospital beds The PRESIDENT took the Chair at in the Fremantle area. 4.30 p.m., and read prayers. (3) Yes.

ASSENT TO BILLS. POLICE FORCE. (a) Resignations. Message from the Governor received and read notifying assent to the following Ron. Sir CHARLES LATHAM asked the Bills:- Chief Secretary: 1, Police Benefit Fund Abolition Act I-ow many resignations took place in Amendment. the Western Australian Police Force dur- 2, Cemeteries Act Amendment. ing the years 1952, 1953 and 1954 respec- 3, Inspection of Scaffolding Act Amend- tively? ment. The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: 4, Mining Act Amendment. In 1952 there were 34 resignations: in 5, Parks and Reserves Act Amendment. 1953, there were 43; and in 1954, there 6, Medical Act Amendment (No. 2). were 59. 7 Honey Pool. 8, Swan Lands Reveatment. (b.) Sergeant Kendall's Position. 9, Rents and Tenancies Emergency Pro- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM asked the visions Act Amendment. Chief Secretary: (1) How many times has Sergeant Ken- QUESTIONS. dall been passed over for promotion since the Police Royal Commission? CROWN LANDS. (2) How many times has he been forced Availability for Pastoral Purposes. to appeal? Hon. 0. BENNETTS asked the Minister (3) What has been the full cost of these for the North-West: appeals to the department? (1) Is it correct that all Crown lands (4) What representation has Sergeant within the State have been withdrawn Kendall had on the Selection and Pro- from selection for Pastoral purposes? motional Boards? (2) If the answer is in the affirmative. (5) Has he objected to such representa- can he give the reason for such with- tion? If so. why? drawal? (6) Has he ever been forced to with- The MINISTER replied: draw his appeals? If so, why? (1) Yes. (7) How many inspectors comprised the (2) The Government is giving considera- Promotional Board on the 27th and 28th tion to a closer settlement policy in October. 1955? pastoral areas. (8) Who is the chairman of the board? [2 November, 1955.] 1513

(9) How many inspectors gave him a equally efficient. The argument, in dis- strong recommendation for promotion to cussion, then ranged around the fact that the rank of Third Class Inspector, and the two officers were equally efficient, but how many members of the board spoke that Sergeant Bunter was the senior 1st highly in his favour for such promotion? Class Sergeant to Sergeant Kendall. (10) Was it a secret ballot? (10) No. Show of hands. (11) Were the full notes of evidence (11) No. Brief notes of the proceedings and discussions recorded? If not, why are taken by the staff sergeant for not? record Purposes, and these can be made (12) Does the chairman of the board act available to the hon. member at the office as judge and jury, or does he vacate the of the Minister for Police. board room during such discussions? (12) No. The chairman remains in the (13) Is it recognised that Sergeant board room and takes part in the discus- Kendall with his overall police experience sion but has only the same voting Power is one of the most efficient and qualified -i.e. one vote-as any other commissioned members of the Police Force? officer. (14) Is it a fact that be is highly re- (13) He is recognised as an efficient garded and respected by the majority of officer and has qualified for Promotion, the Police Force, and by the public gen- which he could no doubt receive in the erally? normal course of seniority. (15) H-ave his seniority in service, qual- (14) 1 cannot answer that question. fications and efficiency fitted him for pro- (15) Answered by No. (13) above. motion over many junior officers? (16) Yes. In 1949 certain members, who (16) Have any of the members sitting were then non-commissioned officers and on the Promotional Board been charged were members of the Police Union Execu- by Sergeant Kendall with any mis- tive, were charged with a technical breach demeanour, and convicted? of the Royal Commission Powers Act for (17) If the Minister for Police has not action taken by the general secretary of sighted the papers dealing with Sergeant the union in regard to the suspension of Kendall's grievance, will he do so, and, in Sergeant Kendall from the union. the meantime, instruct the Acting Com- (17) The Minister sighted Papers deal- missioner of Police to withhold the ap- Ing with Sergeant Kendall's grievances proval of the last successful applicant for some time ago but as the Act Provides promotion until an inquiry has been held? certain procedure through the Selection and Promotional Boards which have been The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: followed in the last appeal lodged by (1) The hon. member would be better Sergeant Kendall, he is not willing to with- informed on this question by Perusing the hold the approval of the last successful relevant Police Department papers on this applicant for promotion until an inquiry matter, and arrangements will be made has been held. accordingly, if he so desires. (2) Covered in answer to No. (1) above. BILL-HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT. (3) There has been no cost to the de- Bill read a third time and passed. partment, other than the lost time of BILL-ADMINISTRATION ACT members of the force having to attend Appeal Boards. AMENDMENT. (4) No member of the force has any Second Readin~g. representation on the Selection Board, which comprises the Chief Inspector as HON. A. F. GRIFFITH (Suburban) chairman, and two senior inspectors; nor [4.40] in moving the second reading said: has he any representation on the Appeal At the outset I wish to explain that the Board, which comprises the Commissioner Bill was introduced in another place by a of Police, as chairman, and all commis- private member and I have been requested sioned officers of the force other than the to present it here. In doing so, I Propose District Officer from Broome and the to explain the details of the Bill, and, at members of the Selection Board. the conclusion of my remarks, to repudiate one of its clauses. The object of the meas- (5) This is answered by No. (4) above. ure is to amend certain sections of the (6) No. It is not possible to force any Administration Act. appellant to withdraw an appeal; nor was If the Hill Is passed, it will delete the this possible under the provisions of the word "curator" from the Act and insert in Government Appeal Board. lieu the words "Public trustee". At one (7) Twenty-three. time the curator was a public officer, but he is no longer in existence under that (8) The Commissioner of Police. title. (9) I have no record of the actual num- The Bill seeks to clarify the position of bers, but I should say the majority of those Intestacy. Provision is made that the present agreed as to his efficiency. But specified sum shall not be applied in rela- they also agreed that Sergeant Suntbr was tion to the value of the estate as at the 1514 1514[COUJNCIL.) date of death for the purpose of calculat- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Where it has ing the fractional shares of beneficiaries. been assessed but the assessment has not including anyone entitled to the specified been received or paid. sum. It is considered that the specified sum, being a set figure, should be regarded Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I think the as a straightforward legacy and therefore present Act Provides for that position. if deducted from the net value before any there is any Question that the hon. mem- fractional shares are arrived at for the ber would like to raise in that connection, future distribution of the estate. I shall make further inquiries in regard toIt. Further provision is made in the Bill as to how any income derived from an inte- The clause I wish to repudiate is one state estate prior to distribution, shall be which was actually inserted in another distributed. It is suggested that the spouse place on the motion of the Premier. The should receive 5 per cent. of the specified clause as it now exists gives relief in sum, and that the remainder should be respect of certain duties; but because of distributed according to the fractional the way it is framed, it gives relief only to shares to those of the next of kin who are the widow. Personally I think that un- entitled to it. desirable, and when the Bill is in Commit- tee, I propose to move to have the clause The interest of minors is dealt with in struck out so that the situation will revert the Bill, which provides that the governing to what it is at the present time. factor in the court's decision regarding the use of a minor's interest in an estate The mover of the Bill in another place for his maintenance and education shall included a provision which the Premier be the minor's share and not the whole moved to delete, and he inserted this value of the estate, it being considered that clause in the Bill in its stead. Although £5,000 is the least amount which, when it is desirable to give the widow relief, it invested, will produce sufficient income for is undesirable to provide that only she shall the purpose of maintenance and educa- have relief. A mother or children might tion. need this relief; therefore it would be bet- ter to revert to the present position rather Expense is avoided in regard to applying than exclude them from such relief. to the court in the case of obvious neces- sity-for example, the necessity to mort- The position of service personnel based gage an estate to pay death duties, and in Malaya, Korea and other places is dealt funeral and administration expenses. That with by replacing the words "Australian section of the Act will be amended to coin- Soldiers Repatriation Act" with the words cide with the principles already provided "Repatriation Act" to bring It into line with in the Act regarding the sale or mortgage the Commonwealth statutes. I1 move- of estates for these purposes. Also con- That the Bill be now read a second tained in the measure are two consequen- time. tial amendments to two other sections. These have been included for the same On motion by Hon. A. R. Jones. debate purpose. adjourned. The amount of £1,000 is raised to £3,000 BILL-SUPERANNUATION AND where letters of administration may be FAMILY BENEFITS ACT applied for where the deceased re- AMNDMENT. sided 50 miles or further from Perth. This is already the departmental policy, In Committee. and it will bring the position Into line Resumed from the previous day. Hon. with the provision in the Federal Estate E. Mv.Davies in the Chair; the Chief Secre- Duty Act: namely, that in arriving at the tary in charge of the Bill. final balance of an estate there shall be deducted from the gross value of the estate, Clause 8-Section 63 amended (partly in addition to all other liabilities of the considered): deceased at the date of death, such The CHIEF SECRETARY: I wanted to amounts as may be due for Federal income clear up a, small point in regard to this tax, including all amounts of such tax that clause. An amendment came forward after might be assessed under Section 101A of the Bill was printed, and it was too late to the Federal Income Tax Act. have it inserted in the measure while it was Hon. H. K. Watson: What is the position in the Legislative Assembly. So the amend- regarding Federal income tax that is due ment was forwarded here for Insertion. but not assessed? The only point at issue is this: At present, if a pensioner remarries and then dies Ron. A. P. GRIFFITH: At the moment and leaves a widow, she is not able to re- I could not accurately answer the question. ceive any benefit from the fund. This Is the hon. member referring to an estate amendment will rectify that position, but which has not been completed from the it does not state that it is mandatory. It point of view of its income, and there- will depend on the circumstances of the fore the income has not been assessed? widow as to whether a pension will be paid. Ron. H. K. Watson: No, where the in- * it often happens that a man, after his come tax assessment has not been received retirement. remarries. I was going to say before the death of thd testator. that there ought to* be some provision for [2 November, 1955.) 1515 the children of a marriage such as that. That means that where a hospital is de- but I think I would be a super optimist to clared to be a teaching hospital, the man- suggest it. The amendment is designed aging body of the hospital, or the Minis- to give some assistance to the widow of ter, whoever it may be, may enter into a pensioner where the remarriage has taken an agreement with the University Senate place after retirement. Therefore, I move in relation to the appointment of mem- an amendment- bers of the Faculty of Medicine as mem- That after the word "Fund" in line bers of the honorary staff. 35, page 3. the words "; and is further What does "ipso facto" mean in that amended by adding after the word, clause? Does it mean that they are to be 'marriage' being the last word in Sub- appointed as members of the honorary section (3), the passage 'unless it ap- staffs of our hospitals without any elec- pears to the Hoard that in the particu- tion by the electoral body, simply be- lar circumstances of the case the cause they hold a Position on the Faculty operation of this subsection will result of Medicine? That could disrupt consider- In hardship In which case the Board ably the honorary staff. It is more than may direct that the pension shall be likely that members of the honorary staff paid and effect shall be given to the of the major hospitals will have appointed direction."' members to the Faculty of Medicine. Hut Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The posi- I think it should be left to the honorary tion is as the Chief Secretary pointed out. staff, or the managing board of the hos- But a man who remarries after retirement pital, to make an agreement with the may have a family, as often happens. It University Senate in relation to the ap- seems strange that no provision was made pointment of members of the medical staff for such circumstances when the Act was of the Faculty of Medicine as members of passed, and this amendment will rectify the honorary staff. the position. I would like it made obliga- If members of the faculty are regarded tory, but I suppose we can rely on the as suitable persons for the honorary staff, representatives of the trustees of the fund the honorary staff will obviously accept to see that the widow and any children them as members. Hut I can visualise receive the benefit to which they are en- a position where a member of the faculty titled. may not, of necessity, be a person who H-on. G. BENNETTS: If a person re- would fit in, even with his specialised marries after retirement and then dies, medical knowledge, with the honorary does his widow, in the event of her re- staff of a hospital. Even if he did, this marriage, receive any pension? provision will take away from the hospital board, and the honorary staff, a good The Chief Secretary: No. deal of their autonomy in regard to the Amendment put and passed; the clause, appointment of honorary staff. as amended, agreed to. Appointment to the honorary staff of Clauses 9 to 12, Title-agreed to. hospitals is something prized by members of the profession; and to be told that Bill reported with an amendment. members of the faculty can automatically become members of the staff, will under- BILL1-UNIVERSITY MEDICAL SCHOOL, mine the authority of the board of man- TEACmING HOSPITALS. agement of a public hospital. I think it Second Reading. would be better to leave out the words "ipso facto"; and when we go into Com- Debate resumed from the previous day. mittee, I shall move accordingly. HON. J. G. HISLOP (Metropolitan) The Chief Secretary: Do you think you [4.55]: This is a necessary Hill, intro- would achieve your objective by striking duced because of the projected establish- out those words? ment of a medical school. However, I am Hon. J. G. HISLOP: Yes; they do not not completely enamoured of one or two mean anything except that members of clauses in the measure. Provision is made the medical staff of the faculty, if the for those hospitals which are declared words are left in, will automatically be- public hospitals, for those set up under come members of the honorary staff. the lunacy and mental treatment Acts, and for those which have not a board of H-on. Sir Charles Latham: By virtue of management of their own. their office. There is one clause about which I, and Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: Yes. Even though a number of others on the honorary a member of the faculty may be qualified, teaching staffs of hospitals, would like an he may not, through some personal diffi- explanation. I refer to Clause 4 (a) (III), culty, be able to become a member of the which reads,- honorary staff. The appointment of members of the The Chief Secretary: I suggest you medical staff of the Faculty of Medi- might have another look at it, because I cine ipso facto as members of the feel you would leave the same meaning honorary staff of the hospital, If you took those words out. [COUNCIL.]

Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: All it means is The Bill seeks to provide facilities for that without it they come to an agree- teaching medical students. That is all it ment. seeks to do. This is regarded by Some as being too -embracing a clause, particularly The Chief Secretary: To appoint some when it seeks to give the advisory com- of them. mittee power to investigate a number of Hon. H. K. Watson: I think it would things which are outside the scope of the be still subject to agreement even with Hill. We feel that Subclause (5) could "ipso facto" in. be left out because we must realise that we also have Subelause (4) which states- The PRESIDENT: Order! I suggest the hon. member continue his speech, and the The advisory committee shall as Chief Secretary can reply if he desires. soon as practicable after receiving notification of the proposal from the Hon. J. 0. HISLOP: There is also an Minister, consider the proposal and interesting Point in Clause 5 of the mea- give the Minister a written report of sure-namely, that if the teaching hospi- their advice on the proposal. tal is established under the Lunacy Act, All the proposal considers is the question or under the Mental Treatment Act, the of training medical students within that advisory committee shall consist of a per- hospital. Why enlarge on it and say son nominated by the Senate; one nomi- the committee can give advice on any other nated by the Faculty of Medicine of the matter relating to the provisions or opera- University of Western Australia; the In- tions of this Act? As I have pointed out, spector General of the Insane or a per- we feel it is too embracing. son nominated by him: and a medical prac- titioner nominated by the Minister who In referring to Clause 7, I would like to will administer the Act. But when it ask what regulations are required in such comes to the teaching hospital, then this an Act. All we are doing is -to appoint an committee shall have on it a person well advisory committee and ask it to report versed in hospital administration. to the Minister on the facilities necessary for teaching medical students within that What is the difference between the two? particular hospital. One must realise that. If a person well versed in hospital ad- in the main, apart from the salaried of- ministration is necessary in one case, then ficers of the departmental hospitals, the he should be necessary in the case of a only staffs on these teaching hospitals will teaching hospital established under the be honorary; they are not to be paid. Yet Lunacy Act and the Mental Treatment we find that the members of the advisory Act. I contend that if it is required in committee are entitled to such remunera- one, it should be required in the other: tion, leave of absence, travelling and other or if it is not wanted in the other it should expenses as are prescribed by the regu- be taken out of both. I understand that lations. this provision was added in another place. It is probably wise to have on this ad- It seems a bit difficult to me that the visory committee somebody who is well persons who are appointed will be either versed in the administration of hospitals: salaried officers or members of honorary but as I have pointed out, if it is wanted staffs, and they are now to be entitled to in one case it is surely required in the remuneration under the regulations; while other, because the one in which it Is left the actual teaching is to be done by men out is the departmental hospital. who are honorary, have been honorary for many years, and will continue to be hon- I should say that we should put in the orary for many Years-probably at least qualification of being well versed in hos- until the present regime of hospital pay- pital administration as it relates to both ments is altered by some other means. Ac- types of hospital or leave it out altogether. cordingly, there are one or two points of because if it were only designed for the appointment of honorary staffs to teach this Bill which deserve consideration. medical students it might not be neces- Finally, I would ask whether it is thought sary. But a man of Mr. Griffith's standing. that one member of the medical staff is for instance, would be invaluable on the sufficient on the advisory committee to advisory committee from the point of view give adequate advice. In a big hospital of advice. I see no reason why this quali- where teaehing is being carried out-and fication should not be put into both rather it is, of course, hard to visualise a big than one. hospital without a board of management- there will be many facets of medicine and I would now like to refer to Subelause surgery being taught; and it is Possible (5) of Clause 5, which reads as follows:- that one person may not be sufficient to The Minister may request the ad- give the advice necessary. I feel that on vice of the appropriate advisory com- this advisory committee advice on both mittee on any other matter related the medical and surgical sides is essen- to the Provisions or operations of this tial, because they are so different in their Act and thereupon the committee shall requirements and so different in their ap- consider the matter and give to the proach to training. It would be better to Minister a written report of their ad- increase the representation of the hono- vice upon it. rary medical staff to two, because in that [2 November, 1955.] 1517 way a broader outlook would be brought of a medical school as part of the University to the advisory committee's investigations of Western Australia was made after con- and findings than would be the case as the siderable research by a Government com- Bill stands at the moment. mittee of investigation as to whether such I seriously stress, therefore, firstly, that a school was warranted in this State as the Chief Secretary give thought to the part of the university training available elimination of the term "ipso facto" and to students desirous of making the medical what it means, because I do not believe- profession their career. and there are a number with me who do The committee recommended that a not believe-that there should be anything medical school could be started at an ap- automatic in the appointment of hono- proximate cost of £300,000; and after con- rary staffs to the hospital. Secondly, there sideration by the Government, it was is the question of whether the hospital agreed to make a Government contribution administrator is needed in one or both of of £150,000 towards the capital cost of these types of advisory committees; thirdly, creating a suitable school which would the representation of the honorary medi- enable medical students to undertake the cal staff in a broader sense; and, finally. three years' pre-clinical training in the whether remuneration to these members University of Western Australia and the is required. I can understand the pro- three years' clinical training in local hospi- vision for leave of absence and travelling tals approved for that purpose. allowance and so on, but I doubt very much the necessity for remuneration. In It was estimated by the Public Works the main, the whole of the teaching of Department that it would take approxi- these medical students will be carried out mately 18 months to two years to carry out by persons who hold honorary office. the necessary building operations at the university and the approved hospitals; and. THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. 0. in consequence, the £150,000 required for Fraser-West-in reply) [5.101: Dr. His- the Government proportion of the capital lop raised a point in connection with Sub- cost was not required in a lump sum and is clause (5) of Clause 5, which gives the being provided by three instalments of Minister certain powers. He also men- £50.000 at six-monthly intervals. tioned Subclause (1) of Clause 5, where a teaching hospital has not a managing The Hill provides for the university ob- body. The Minister is allowed to exercise taining this capital sum; and six months certain powers conferred in Subclause (4) after the last £50,000 of capital is made of Clause 5. Under that subclause, he has available, the Government will start to power to give a written notification of the make repayments of the £150,000 by 30 proposal to the appropriate advisory com- half-yearly instalments, which will include mittee which shall, as soon as possible principal and interest. I think Dr. Hislop, after receiving the Minister's notification was worried that there was no guarantee give a written report in connection with it., by the Government that this repayment I cannot see any objection to Clause 5, would be made. because there may be something on which Hon. J. 0. Hislop: No. I criticised it as the Minister would require advice from not being the handsome gesture you the advisory committee. While I suppose thought it was. that in the ordinary course of events he would make that request to the committee, The CHIEF SECRETARY: I think it is even if Subclause (5) were not included, a handsome gesture. The money will be it would, I feel, be far better to leave it available whether it is paid in a lump in the Bill so that the Minister would be sum of £150,000, or whether it is paid in provided with statutory right to do it. three moieties of £50,000 each. I would ask Dr. Hislop to look seriously Hon. H. Hearn: Or leave it to posterity at the question of striking out "ipso facto", to pay. because I doubt whether he would achieve what he desires by deleting the expression. The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not know The same interpretation might be put on about that, because the amount would be the clause with or without those words. paid over 15 years. However, it was done, I will, however, give consideration to the and it represented a move forward. If points raised by Dr. Hislop, and will reply we had had to wait until the whole of the to them in detail in the Committee stage. amount of £150,000 could be made available Question put and passed. in one year. I do not know that we would Bill read a second time. have been as far advanced towards the establishment of a medical school as we BILL-UNIVERSITY MEDICAL are. One of the problems through the SCHOOL. years has been to finance such large ex- penditure in the one year. Now an at- Second Reading. tempt is being made to arrange the finance Debate resumed from the previous day. so that the financial standing of the medi- THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. G. cal school will be good. Fraser-West-in reply) (5.12]: The Gov- Hon. J. 0. Hislop: How has the £100,000 ernment's decision to support the creation been found for the Alexandra Home? 1518 [COUNCIL.]

The CHIEF SECRETARY: That is an- the annual grant payable by the Govern- other question, and I find it unwise to deal ment to the university. Members will with many questions at the one time. realise that the annual costs of running However, I can say that the £100,000 will the university have increased consider- not be provided in one lump sum any ably, but the increased costs have been more than will the;£150,000 for the medical provided by the Government by means of school. an appropriation of revenue by Parlia- Hon. H. Hearn: And you are mortgaging ment each year through the annual esti- the future? mates. The other States of Australia have The CHIEF SECRETARY: Does not medical schools attached to their universi- every Government do that? Does not the ties, and the establishment of a medical hon. member do it in his business? Had school as part of the University of West- he not done so, he would not be in the ern Australia will not increase our uni- happy position he occupies today. Do not versity's costs above those of the other 90 per cent. of the people mortgage the States. In consequence, the Common- future when they buy motorcars or neces- wealth Grants Commission will recognise sities for the homes? That system has this additional expenditure, and will not grown up through the years, and we are impose any penalty when assessing the not making any unusual departure on this annual disabilities grant payable to us. occasion. The salaries payable by the university The method of borrowing funds for to its professors are reviewed by the capital works is a standard method by Senate from time to time, and the salaries which road boards, councils and other local proposed to be payable to the professors bodies raise money for capital works and of the medical school are approximately provide for its repayment. In addition, I the average payable to similar professors might add that a number of other im- in Australian universities. portant buildings has been financed by the A question was asked by Dr. Hislop as university, and-the Government is repay- to what is to become of the funds raised ing over a period of years the capital cost by the university-the body conducting of those buildings. For the information the appeal-over and above the amount of members, these repayments are provided of £150,000 required for the contribution for uinder University Buildings Acts No. 37 towards the capital cost. The appeal for of 1930, No. 50 of 1931, No. 4 of 1938. and funds for a medical school is in good No. 43 of 1952. hands when left to the control of the U~ni- If we are mortgaging the future-though versity Senate. This body represents a I do not admit that we are-who is going to reasonable cross-section of men in the benefit from the establishment of the community, and I have no doubt that medical school? whatever surplus results from the appeal will be carefully used by the Senate in Hon. H. Hearn: I am not quarrelling the Promotion of medical science and about that. practice for the benefit of the people of The CHIEF SECRETARY: Future gen- the State in general. There are two medi- erations will derive the benefit. The same cal men on the Senate-Dr. Le Souef and principle applies to local authorities; they Dr. Ainslie-and we may rest assured that raise money to build halls and construct they will watch the interests of the medi- roads and so forth because those works cal school. will be of benefit in the future. Many matters raised by Dr. Hislop have Hon. H. Hearn: What has posterity done nothing whatever to do with the scope for us? of the Bill before the House, which is simply to authorise payment to the uni- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I shall not versity by the Government of its propor- go into that. I have pointed out that tion of the capital cost-namely, £150,000 this method is not at all new so far as -over a period of years in a manner the university is concerned. Quite a num- similar to the repayment of other loan ber of the buildings would not be in exist- expenditure incurred by the university for ence if this procedure had not been the construction and equipment of the adopted: and I do not think anyone would necessary buildings to enable the arts and complain of what has been done, any more sciences to be taught at the university. than people in the future are likely to I may mention that the examinations complain of what we are doing. will be set, not by someone locally, but by Concern was expressed by Dr. Hislop the professors, perhaps of the Sydney as to the ability of the Government to University this year and the Melbourne pay the university, in addition, the run- University next year. Thus other universi- ning costs amounting to approximately ties in rotation will have a say in setting £-100,000 each year. For the information the examination papers. In all these mat- of members, I point out that the £100,000 ters there will be guidance by the Senate, will be a revenue charge and entirely dis- and we should have faith in those men tinct from the £150,000 required for the to continue to do the good job they have capital cost of providing the school. The done in the past. £E100,000 Payable each year will be pro- Question put and passed. vided from revenue funds and will increase Bill read a second time. 1[2 November. 1955.) 1519

In Committee. When introducing the measure, the Bill passed through Committee without Chief Secretary said, "-There is a persist- debate, reported without amendment and ent public request for the extension of the report adopted. State insurance activities." I wish he had brought some evidence to support that statement. It reads all right; but I have BILL-STATE GOVERNMENT taken the. trouble to look at some of the INSURANCE OFFICE figures, and I am not sure that on the ACT AMENDMENT. results achieved by the State Insurance Office, the statement of the Chief Sec- Second Reading. retary, that every day and every week Debate resumed from the 12th October. there was an immense demand for State Insurance Office activities, was quite HON. H. HEARN (Metropolitan) [5.26): correct. As the Chief Secretary rightly said when To begin with, let us examine the moving the second reading, this question workers' compensation business. In the has become a hardy annual. The book that year 1938-39 the State Insurance Office I hold in my hand contains records of the wrote £292,484 worth of workers' compen- speeches made last year for and against sation business, and the private insurers the Hill that was then before us; and I £232,909 worth. In 1948-49, the am hoping that It will be possible to bring wrote some fresh information to bear on the State Insurance Office wrote £309,040 arguments, particularly as the Chief worth: and the private insurers, £479,939 Secretary used 34 typed pages of notes. I worth. In 1952-53-these are the last think that was a very good effort on his figures where a full year's operations are part: but, in a much shorter speech, I hope available-the State Insurance Office to be able to cover the ground and give wrote £474,605 worth of workers' com- some answers to the case he presented. pensation business; and the private in- surers, £723,231 worth. In the beginning, we ought to take our Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: How many private minds back to the essential principles con- insurers would there be in opposition to tained in the Hill. We have to recognise the State Insurance Office in that Period? that between the Government and other parties in this House, there must of neces- Hon. H. HEARN: In the State there are sity be a sharp division of opinion on approximately '79 insurance offices. certain basic principles. Those basic prin- Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: That would be 78 ciples form the difference between the par- to one. ties. We know that it is one of Labour's objectives to extend State trading and the Hon. H. H{EARN: Yes; but I am refer- power of the State wherever possible. Some ring only to a statement by the Chief members might go further and say that Secretary that there was a persistent supporters of Labour are attempting to Im- clamour from the public for an extension plement the principles of socialism. of the activities of the State Insurance Office. It will be noted that before the Be that as it may, we come back to the war, in 1938-39, the State Insurance Office fact that the Government appreciates its was writing a larger volume of such busi- duty to its platform by bringing down ness than all the Private insurers, but has on every occasion and at every opportunity failed to hold that position. measures designed, at least, to give more As compared with 1938-39 the State In- power to State trading concerns. After surance Office had increased this section all, we are dealing with the State Insurance of its business--in 1948-49-by £16,556, Office as a State trading concern. There- which is 5.7 per cent.; and by 1952-53, by fore I believe that even the Chief Secretary £181,121, which is 62.26 per cent.: while would not expect those who do not belong the private insurers showed an increase to his party to agree with him that the time has arrived, apart from any other in 1948-49 of £247,040, an increase of 106 consideration, for us as supporters of pri- per cent.: and by 1952-53. £499,322, an in- vate enterprise to forget our principles and crease of 214.38 per cent. So I suggest assist the Government in widening the that, if anything, the State Insurance franchise of the State Insurance Office. Office is not getting its share of this busi- ness, and I therefore cannot understand We have to bear in mind that in a Bill the Chief Secretary's claim that there has introduced into this House on a previous been a persistent public demand for an ex- occasion, life assurance was included; and tension of State Insurance Office activities. in another Bill-I mention this to show the Hon. C. W. D. Barker: What is there to tendency of the times--there was a pro- be frightened of in letting them do busi- vision to grant the State office a monopoly ness? of a certain phase of insurance. Thus it is fair to assume from the standpoint of Hon. H. HEARN: Then we come to the people who believe in free enterprise that nine Pages of his second reading speech gradually but relentlessly the Government where the Chief Secretary gives the is moving to extend the operations of enormous--these are his own words-- every trading utility that it can. the enormous, colossal and unjustifiable 1520 CCOUNCIL.] profits of the insurance companies. Who- enormous profits made by these companies, ever wrote that speech, I believe it was in comparison with what has been done written for a specific purpose, in order to by the State Insurance Office. put up a good case; but, by and large, I As we examine these balance sheets, we do not think it is altogether truthful. find that they invariably disclose-they are In his selection, the Minister has taken proud of it, because it is essential for the about 20 companies, out of a total of ap- stability of insurance-an amazing array proximately 200: and on the surface, it of gilt-edged investments, flanked by an appears that he has picked all those that equally amazing list of reserves, just as apparently pay high dividends, while they should, because it is the business of Ignoring all the other factors that must insurance companies to be the very em- be taken into consideration when examin- bodiment of unshakable financial stab- ing the earning capacity of an insurance ility. The Practice of quoting Profits and company. In the first place, all these dividends as a percentage of paid-up capi- companies are old established, having been tal is most misleading as it ignores the founded as long ago as 1720 A.D. existence and significance of reserves. The Minister for the North-West: But If we could bring it down to an ordinary, not in Australia! everyday ilustration, it is surely tanta- mount to saying that if I have £100 in the Hon. H. HEARN: That is so. But after savings bank and get interest on it, but all, we are dealing with their funds. leave the interest in the account I should The Minister for the North-West: And not receive any interest on that next year. they are dealing with ours. After all, the reserves of a company belong to the shareholders, inasmuch as the di- Hon. H. HEARN: I will mention the rectors of the company in their wisdom companies quoted by the Chief Secretary place those moneys in reserve to strengthen and give the year in which each was estab- the fabric of the company; and, of course, lished. The Caledonian was established in the reserves come from the profit made by 1895, the Commercial Onion in 1861, the the company in its operations. Economic in 1901, the Legal and Genera! Notwithstanding the blitz which many in 1836, the Licence and General in 1890, members in this House and another place the London in 1720, the New Zealand in have made on profits, I think they should 1859, the Northern In 1836, the Norwich state the position fairly; but to quote the Union in 1797, the Phoenix in 1782, the results of an insurance company's busi- Provincial in 1904, the Prudential in 1848, ness simply on its issued capital, having the Royal in 1845, the Royal Exchange in no regard to the many years of its exist- 1720 and the Yorkshire in 1824. ence, its world-wide ramifications, and the If we could get an appreciation of the reserves which have been put on one side, value of money in the days when those is not stating the position fairly. companies commenced business, and in If one takes the reserves into account, the period through which they travelled one invariably finds that, for all their in the days of the gold standard, I do wealth, these insurance companies are not not think we would be surprised at the making any more profit than an ordinary reserves that they have built up, bearing industrial undertaking would. After all, in mind that the essential Principle of we must recognise that reserves are an insurance is always to treat the reserves accumulation of undistributed profits- generously because one cannot get stability profits which shareholders were entitled to without plenty of reserves in a business withdraw as dividends but which, as I such as insurance. It is quite natural to said before, the directors in their wisdom suppose that in the long intervening years left in the company. of successful trading, and by following a If the policy of a company is to accu- conservative Policy Such as is vital to mulate reserves by retaining part of each successful underwriting, these companies year's profits, it is obvious that particu- should have been able to build up con- larly those insurance companies which go siderable reserve funds. back to 1750 have had a great chance of Another factor completely ignored by the building up reserves. If a company put Chief Secretary is that the majority of the aside £50,000 or £60,000 a year as reserves insurance companies take not only fire, over that Period that, with the added in- accident and marine business, but also terest on investments, would at least give life assurance: and so their results cannot the ordinary superficial observer of the in any way be compared with the results balance sheet an idea that the company of their Australian offices which, with one was profiteering. exception, write general business only. Hon. H. K Watson: You would Probably So we see that, throughout the years, these find that in a great many instances the companies have operated on a world-wide reserves are considerably more than the basis: and that in every case, with one paid-up capital. exception, they have dealt with life assur- ance as well. In spite of that, in order Hon. H. HEARN: In many cases that to bolster the case for the State Insurance Is so. Insurance companies, in the main, Office, the Chief Secretary talks of the are old in Years, and have therefore built . [2 November, 1955.] 152152 up reserves such as I maintain are abso- risks, even allowing for reinsurance, that lutely vital to the stability of those com- reinsurance can only be of value provided panies. Recent balance sheets of four there is a strong financial organisation ac- leading Australian* insurance companies cepting the business. Therefore, instead provide an interesting study. The average of being so nervous and critical of these age of these companies is 92 years; their profits, we should say that unless we have paid-up capital totals £4,500,000, and their an insurance company with reserves, and reserves £6,500,000-the point Mr. Watson unless It is making money, the position was making-and the latter represent an could be very serious from the point of avenage accretion of £73,000 per 'year over view of a person who suffered loss by fire. the 92-year period. In this Bill there is a clause dealing with If dividends are quoted as 15 per cent. the local government insurance Pool. on paid-up capital, for example, a con- That was discussed in another place. I sideration of the reserves might alter the would point out that under Section 7 of figure to 6 per cent, which is a very dif- the State Government Insurance Office ferent matter. It is also highly significant Act, it was obligatory upon the State In- that 45 per cent, of the profits are derived surance Office to pay to the Treasury the from income on investments. Thus the Same amount of money as it would have highly skilled operations of risk taking. paid in tax on the surplus of the local with ramifications extending all over the government pool. world, produce only a little more than half the profits of these four companies; and For the information of those members that, in a general sense, forms the pattern who may not know, I would point out that of the history of the insurance companies the State Insurance Office Is acting in the which we have been told are fleecing the capacity of controlling local authorities' public. On present market values, the insurance by way of a pool. On good shares in the majority of the companies authority, I understand that it is a separ- mentioned by the Minister would yield no ate fund, and at the end of the year any more than could be expected from an profits that are made are returned to the ordinary industrial investment-and not local authorities who subscribe to the as good as some of the industrial invest- pool. ments which have been revealed in the Before I deal with this clause in the Bill, figures given during the last few years. I would like to ask: What would happen When introducing the measure, the Chief If we had a major catastrophe in any sec- Secretary, who is highly conscious of the tion of our State? I would like the Chief necessity for insurance companies to be Secretary to give an answer in his reply sound, said- to the debate. The position today is that It is felt that a concern such as the State Insurance Office collects the an insurance office must have absolute money from the local governing bodies freedom of investment of any funds with, I think, the exception of Perth and available, as obviously the greater the Fremantle City Councils. After it has paid amount of interest improves the fin- all its losses, the office returns to the local ancial position of the company, and governing bodies whatever profit is left. undoubtedly redounds to the benefit The Minister for the North-West: That of the public. Is co-operative. I wonder whether we have considered Hon. H. HEARN: Yes. But what is go- what history has taught us concerning in- ing to happen if we have a catastrophe- surance commitments: the liabilities and which the catastrophes that can draw heavily we could easily have-and find that upon the whole insurance structure of the thousands and thousands of pounds are world. Of course, the classic instance is to be paid out, which would be more than the San Francisco earthquake. In the de- what the local governing bodies have con- struction of that city it was found that tributed? That is what I would like the the greater part of the insurance was held Chief Secretary to answer. I presume by Britain; and the stability of the British that ultimately the taxpayer will be called companies, and their ability to meet their upon to meet the loss. commitments, led to the foundation of The Chief Secretary: We will answer what has been one of the greatest forms everything. of business between Britain and the United Hon. H. HEARN: In another place, the States. Today the British insurance com- point was made that unless the local gov- panies are respected in the United States erning bodies were in the Pool, they could because, following that catastrophe, they not expect to get that rebate; and, for were able to meet their commitments when some reason or other, the Government some of the American companies could has included a clause in this Bill dealing not. with that phase. It was the opinion of Another major disaster occurred in 1953. some people that never at any time were when the whole of General Motors went the local governing bodies liable. In up in smoke. There was a 50,000.000 dol- short, the State Insurance Office should lar loss. If any Insurance company or never have paid that money into the body of Insurance people are taking those Treasury. So the advice of solicitors was 1522 rcouncnn. obtained and finally the matter was taken So from those figures it can be seen to Mr. John Hale, Q.C., and this Is the that the overall loss of all these Govern- answer he gave- ment offices was £608,752. In regard to The writer yesterday afternoon Queensland, I would,*remind members conferred with Mr. Hale and on the that that State has the monopoly of assumption that the above accurately workers' compensation Insurance. How- describes the method of operation of ever, if one studies the rates that em- the pool he answered the questions ployers are paying in Queensland, it will asked as follows:- be readily understood why the Govern- (a) The excess of premiums re- ment Insurance Office in that State has ceived through such a pooling made this profit. scheme over losses paid and There are many other aspects of the administration charges is not Bill that could be discussed: but as there profit or income for the pur- will be other speakers, I feel that they Poses of Section 7 (7) of the should cover the ground. I now want to existing Act and should not work back and mention how I started. I be included in the amount come into this House as a believer in upon which the equivalent of private enterprise. income tax is calculated under that provision. The Minister for the North-West: Very So the're was no need to insert that clause private. in the Bill; and if the local governing Hon. Hf. HEARN: Often I was not in bodies are keen, they should endeavour accord with my party colleagues in regard to persuade the State Insurance Office to to their attitude on the question of Govern- refund that money they have not received ment utilities and the interference by the over the past years. Government in private enterprise. I be- The Minister for the North-West: lieve that anything a Government does in Queen's Counsel do differ. the way of business cannot be done as Hon. H. HEARN: Yes. But before this efficiently as private enterprise can do it. matter was submitted to a Q.C. it received The Chief Secretary: What are you the attention of three leading solicitors frightened of then? in the city; and they were of the unani- mous opinion that there was no need for Hon. H. HEARN: The State Insurance this clause in the Bill, and that never at Office in this State-or, for that matter, any time were the local governing bodies in any other State-has a tremendous ad- liable for the money that was paid into vantage over ordinary insurance companies. the Treasury. For example, consider the enormous A very glamorous picture of the New amount of business that must go to the South Wales State Government Insurance State Insurance Office In this State from all Office was presented to us by the Minister. the Government utilities. Everything they He mentioned that that concern paid can put through the State Insurance Office bonuses to its policy-holders in addition to naturally goes there. That business finds the reserves It had accumulated; but he its way to the State Insurance Office with- omitted to say that it had made a loss out any question whatsoever. Therefore, of £771,695, as disclosed in the August, 1955, the cost of securing that business Is in- issue of the "Insurance and Banking finitesimal in comparison with the costs Record." incurred by ordinary private insurance The Chief Secretary: I knew you would companies which have to send inspectors supply that information. and travellers out to secure new business. Hon. H. HEARN: As a matter of in- Under no circumstances can anyone say terest, if we review the overall trading of that a Government concern can operate the Government insurance offices in Aus- and work in fair competition with private tralia and in New Zealand, we find that enterprise. The State Insurance Office the aggregate loss made by them as at has done a remarkable job in regard to the 30th June, 1954, was £608,752. the insurance scheme for schoolchildren. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: How did they A similar scheme was commenced by some make up their deficiencies? of the private insurance companies in the secondary schools; and with commendable Hon. H. HEARN: In this regard I1again foresight the State Insurance Office ap- quote from the "Insurance and Banking proached the Parents and Citizens' As- Record" and submit the following details sociation to inaugurate a comprehensive of the position as at the 30th June, 1954:- insurance scheme for schoolchildren, and Loss. profit. today it is a wonderful success. However, L le I want to point out that a similar scheme Victoria GovernmentAccident Office 35,010 Victorian Government Motor Car is in operation in the Eastern States, with Office...... 96,103 exactly the same rates, which is handled FLS.W. Governent Offce 771,695 by a private insurance company. New Zeafand-Fire Office ... 21.684 New Zealand Acident Ofic 0..,540 Tasniania-Government Office.... 61,'000 The Chief Secretary: But they would not Queenstand-Goverthent Office .. 247.000 look at it here. [2 November, 1955.) HOn. H. HEARN: I will give the reason Hon. N. E. BAXTER: The State Govern- why the private insurance companies could ment Insurance Offce will reach the stage not look at It here. By the time they could where it will get a monopoly in certain go into this scheme, the State Insurance lines of insurance. The Minister himself Office had secured the bulk of the business admits that. As the Government proposes offering in the principal educational to make the State Government Insurance centres. All that would have been left to Offce a monopoly trading concern, run on the private insurance companies was one or the same lines as other State trading con- two secondary schools. It is an axiomn in cerns, I intend to vote against the second insurance that the more the risk can reading of the Bill. be spread, the cheaper the premium be- On motion by Hon. F. H. H. Lavery, comes. The State Insurance Office has done a good job; but in exactly the same debate adjourned. way, a private insurance company in the BILL-CONSTITUTION ACTS Easstern States has done the same. AMENDMENT (No. 2). The Chief Secretary: My information Second Reading. was that the local companies would not come into the scheme. Debate resumed from the previous day. Hon. H. HEARN: The Chief Secretary should investigate the position, and he will HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) [6.3): find that that As the Chief Secretary said, this is a is not quite correct. As I small Bill; but there is one reason for its said at the beginning, this Bill cuts right introduction, and one only; it was con- across the principles which I1was elected to ceived in the. minds of Labour Party mem- Parliament to protect; and because of that, Party hopes to I am going to vote against the second bers. What the Labour reading. gain from it I cannot understand. The Chief Secretary: We do not want to HON. N. E. BAXTER (Central) [5.593: gain anything, but to give people their I Will speak briefly on the Bill, We have rights. had similar measures presented to us on four or five occasions previously, and I Hon. N. E. BAXTER: The Chief Secre- will raise the same objection to this Bill tary said Its purpose is to give people their that I raised against the others that were rights. If there had been a great outcry considered by us in the past-namely, that in this State for the right to vote at the cost of any disaster that will occur In Legislative Council elections, then the Bill this State will be met from public funds, before us would have been Justified. But for the simple reason that the capital is let us look at the overall position. not behind the State Government Insur- Hon. C. W. D. Barker: Have a look at the ance Office. As I told members before, justice of the principle involved. half of the capital of that office belongs Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I shall refer to the to the silicosis fund. It Is not to be used justice of it in a few minutes. Let us look for normal Insurance business. I for one at the overall position. Take the number would object very strongly if it were used of people who are eligible for Legislative for that purpose. If that office had huge Council enrolment and the number of those resources available to meet heavy losses in who enrol voluntarily. I refer to those case of a major catastrophe, then I would people who, of their own accord, without support the extension of the business. I being approached by any interested party, would not place any public funds in jeo- obtain enrolment cards, fill them in, and pardy. return them to the Electoral Office. The The Chief Secretary: You want the percentage is very small. It would niot be private companies to have a monopoly. more than 20 per cent. of those eligible HOn. N. E. BAXTER: It is not a monop- to be enrolled. oly. I am saying that any big pay-out As members are aware, the majority of for losses would fall on the public of this enrolment cards received at the Electoral State. It is not fair to ask the public to Office are obtained from organisations or accept that responsibility and to use public from individuals who make Personal ap- funds which should go to other avenues. peals to electors to be placed on the roll. The Minister for the North-West: How Each political Organisation has endea- did the private insurance companies com- voured to build up the rolls by approaching mence? those eligible. If there had been a huge outcry for this Bill, there would be nearly HOn. N. E. BAXTER: With private a 100 per cent. enrolment for the Legis- capital which was built up over the years. lative Council. The fact is that there is The Minister for the North-West: They not. started from scratch. Take my own province: The possible en- Hon. N. E. BAXTER: They took great rolment is 15,000 to 20,000. In a territory care of their risks. of 22,000 square miles. fairly well settled- The Minister for the North-West: You and some of it closely settled-there are will not allow the State Government Insur- fewer than 7,000 on the roll out of a pos- ance Office to do the same thing. sible 15,000 or 20,000. That shows how 1524 1524COUNCIL.] great the outcry is to enlarge the franchise Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I object very for the Legislative Council. At present, strongly to an interjection of that sort: the qualification for Legislative Council That this House is a waste of public funds. enrolment is a very minor one. When one Hon. F R. H. Lavery: Of course it is! considers the amount a householder has to pay in rent annually-EL17, or 6s. 73d. per Hon. N. E. BAXTER: It is incumbent week- on the hon. member to withdraw that statement. This House is by no means a The Minister for the North-West: Does waste of public funds. It gives protection a householder have to pay that? not only to business People but to the Hon. N. E. BAXTER: No. A householder workers whom the hon. member is sup- whose rental is valued at 6s. 73d. a week is posed to represent. If he looks back over eligible for enrolment. That is how broad the years, he will see that this House, in the franchise is. Yet an attempt Is being workers' compensation- made to broaden it and make a farce of The PRESIDENT: I ask the hon. mem- the whole position by bringing in the ber to confine his remarks to the Bill be- wives of householders who have to pay fore the House. the small sum of 6s. 73d. per week in rental value. If this legislation would do Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I was attempting the State any good, and if there had been to do that. Even if I have to get away from a great demand by the wives of house- the Bill, I. must object to any member holders and freeholders to get on the roll. casting a slur on this House. I would have agreed to the Bill. But what The Minister for the North-West: He are we doing? We are creating a situa- Is entitled to his opinion. tion where organisations are chasing people to get them on to the rolls; and, after Hon. N. E. BAXTER: He may be; but they have been enrolled, chasing them to he is not entitled to express it in this vote. House. The Minister for the North-West: That Hon. E. M. Davies: You want a restric- applies only in your electorate. tion on freedom of speech? Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Members repre- Hon. N. E. BAXTER: I say again em- senting metropolitan provinces do not have phatically that when members opposite to chase around the countryside. If they can assure me that there are 80 per cent. had as large a district as some of the of eligible voters on the roll of the Legis- country provinces to cover, they would have lative Council, that will be the time to con- a very big job on their hands. When 80 sider this Bill, which seeks to widen the per cent. of those who today are qualified franchise to include the wives of house- for enrolment appear on the rolls, that holders and freeholders. At present, it is will be the time to decide to widen the a complete farce. The Bill is introduced franchise by giving wives of householders for Political reasons, and I cannot at this and freeholders the right to vote. By no stage support the second reading. stretch of imagination can it be said at present that there is any justification for HON. SIR CHARLES LATHAM (Cen- widening the franchise. The aim of the tral) [6.12]: This Bill can be considered Bill Is ,adult franchise for the Legislative from two angles, one being the demand for Council. an amendment to the Act. Hon. R. F. Hutchison: What is wrong Hon. C. W. D. Barker: To the principle. with that? Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I can Hon. N. E. BAXTER: There is a lot make my own speech. I do not want any- wrong with it. There is this wrong with one to give a second reason. I defy any It: We shall finish up with two Houses of member to convince me that there Parliament elected by the same electors, is any demand for the Bill, outside the and one House will be a duplicate of the political party supporting It. other. The aim will then be to abolish The Minister for the North-West: I have one House and operate with one only. repeatedly heard a demand for a wider The Minister for the North-West: Fol- franchise. low the example of Canberra. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I say Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Or follow there is none. I have had more years of Queensland! experience In electioneering than the Mini- Hon. N. E. BAXTER: If members think ster. we should follow Queensland, then they The Minister for the North-West: in a should bring that about. particular area. Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: I for one would Hon, Sir CHARLES LATHJAM: I was support the abolition of one House. I Leader of the Opposition for nine years in declare it now: This H-ouse is a waste of this State, and my own electorate Played a public funds. very unirnportant part In those days. I Hon. J. McI, Thomson: You want to have travelled from the north right down abolish this House? to the south of this State electioneering. [2 November. 1955.1 121525

The Minister for the North-West: Only a house with a rental value of E17 a year once on electioneering. can secure a vote; and on today's values, that is not much. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM- During But the point Is that the spouse of the that period, there has not been a demand occupant of such a home has done her f or an alteration of the franchise of this share and has stood by her husband House. Some members come to this House through thick and thin to help him to with the high ideals of making their tion more Important and attemptingposi- to obtain that stake in the country which bring In new Ideas that are unacceptabie enables him to vote for the Upper House;, to the electors generally. and in those circumstances, surely she is entitled to participate In the benefits he The Minister for the North-West: To enjoys. Surely she is entitled to share his bring in democratic Ideas. privileges! H-on. H. Hearn: Do you share every- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: If we pass thing with your wife? this Bill, the womenfolk will be compelled to vote. Even today, when there is com- Hon. C. W. D. BARKER:- Yes, every- pulsory voting for the Legislative Assembly. thing! That Is the most Important factor it is most difficult to get the women to to which consideration should be given. A vote. Members have manned polling booths man enters into a partnership with his and kept records of those who have voted, wife. She stands by him In everything. and they have sent cars for those who She is one of the main influences in would not come voluntarily. enabling him to secure a stake In the country. Why should she not therefore For my part, I do not want to see share in the vote available through his people being forced to do something having that stake? against their will unless it he in the in- It has been said that it is necessary terests of the country. The present oc- almost to force people to be enrolled: and cupants of this House, the voting power, members have stated that if we could and its high standards, should not be inter- get 80 per cent. of the people on to the fered with. I would change some of the be willing to accept this present members forthwith if I were able roll, they would to do so, but I would not change all the measure. I would point out to members members from the Labour Party. I think that in the North-West 100 per cent. of the people who are entitled to be enrolled most of them have an intelligent outlook. have their names on the roll, and we do But unfortunately, in the party room, someone may suggest new ideas; and, be- not have to force them to enrol or to go cause more than half of those present are to the poll. We get one of the highest in favour, the rest, like a mob of sheep. percentages of votes in the State. have to follow. Hon. N. E. Baxter: There are only a handful of people there. The Minister for the North-West: Does not that apply in the Country Party? Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: Possibly. But whose fault is that? We have been fight- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: This ing for the development of the North for legislation will not do any good. All it years. Whose fault is it that we have will do is duplicate the vote of house- only a handful of people in that area? It holders. is not ours. Everything we try to do for The Minister for the North-West: Whom the benefit of the North is knocked back. do you consider the mast important in the Hon. H. Hearn: By your Government. household? Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: Our Govern- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: That has ment has done more for the North than nothing to do with the Bill, which refers any Government which has been in to the widening of the franchise for the power. But that is getting away from Legislative Council; and all that it 'will the issue. This Bill is intended to give a achieve will be to give an extra vote to a vote to the wife of the occupier of a house household. or the wife of anybody who is qualified Sitting suspended from 6-15 to 7.30 to vote for the Legislative Council. It is p.m. a fair thing to ask for, and I intend to [The Deputy President took the Chair.] support the Bill. HON. C. W. D. BARKER (North) (7.30]: HON. F. R. H. LAVERY (West) [7.351: 1 have listened closely and with much This measure may be, as Mr. Baxter said. interest to what members have said con- a hardy annual. The hon. member also cerrning this Bill. It is not merely a mat- said it was the policy of the Western Aus- ter of whether people want this to hap- tralian Branch of the Australian Labour pen-and I think they do-but there is Party. That is so. It is the No. 1 plank a principle involved which is very import- of our platform; and in order that nobody ant. As many people have said, qualifi- will be in any doubt about the matter, I cations for the franchise for this Cham- would point out that that plank provides ber are not very severe. An occupant of for compulsory enrolment and compulsory. 1526 526[COUNCIL.] voting for the Legislative Council in a Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: Perhaps I am a manner similar to that applying to the little one-eyed when I fight for the right Legislative Assembly. I might answer Mr. of the wives of householders to have a vote Baxter further by adding that this is sought in respect of the election of members with a view to bringing about the ultimate to this place. But I realise that in the abolition of the Council. 50-odd years that this House has been in I interjected tonight, probably rather existence, it has never had a Labour rudely; but my interjection was sincere. majority. Even if I have to be ordered Mr. Baxter challenged us to say what mem- from this place tonight, I shall maintain hers of the Labour Party would do with this that at no time has a Labour Government House if the party had a majority here. had control in this State, but it has been subject to the whims and wishes of those Hon. H. Hearn: Possibly the same as who have been in opposition to it. I say was done in New South Wales. that the time has come when we mus- Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: The time has not Hon.* H.' Hearn: So you think that this yet come. We have not a majority in this Bill would seure the Labour Party a House. majority? Hon. J. Mel. Thomson: And you are happy about it, too. Hon. P. R. H. LAVERY: The time has come for us to put up some fight to broaden Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: The hon. mem- the franchise for this House. The whole of ber is. the opposition to the Labour Party's policy The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I would ask in that regard is due to the fact that, if it the hon. member to keep to the subject were given effect to, the voting power of matter of the Bill. those in opposition to the Government Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: The subject would be affected. matter of the Bill so far as I can interpret Over a long period of years-in fact, ever the measure-and I think I have as much since 1915, when I was quite a lad-I have understanding of it as any other member always worked at Legislative Council elec- of the Chamber-is the enlargement of tions; and as far back as I can remember. the franchise for this House. the aim has been to have returned as many Hon. N. E. Baxter: The broadening of the Labour members as possible so that at some franchise. time a Labour Government might be in Hon. F. Ri. H. LAVERY: Very well, the control of the State instead of being in broadening of the franchise, seeing that control only of the Legislative Assembly. I have to be educated. When members Our hope has been greatly to improve the challenge what the Labour Party is trying franchise so that the whole of the People to do in this regard, I assure them that of the State.' and not just a section, would I stand here with a clear conscience , and have a vote for this place. have no hesitation in repeating what We are at present celebrating Education I said on the public platform before Week, and I have had the privilege of at- I was elected, that when the time comes tending three official openings during the -and it is not here yet; and all this is last three days. I have heard the Direc- going down in "Hansard" and I have never tor of Education speak of the eduction of yet refuted anything that I have been re- the people, and how it has evolved from Ported in "Hansard" as having said-I will the days prior to the turn of the century. be glad to move for the abolition of this Surely the people of this State have be- House, because I feel that this House is a come better educated with regard to what waste of public funds. is required in the Legislature of this Hon. H. K. Watson: Mr. Deputy Presi- country! If they feel that they have not dent- sufficient voting power, who are we to say that the franchise should not be The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Will Mr. broadened? Lavery please resume his seat? Hon. H. K. Watson: The Standing Orders I would not have spoken on this matter provide that no member shall reflect upon had it not been for the challenge very this House. I submit that for any member rudely thrown out by Mr. Baxter regarding to say that this House is a waste of public the policy of the Australian Labour Party. funds is to make a reflection on the House. I am very proud that this matter is the No. 1 item on the platform of the party. and the statement should be withdrawn. and I declare myself here and now in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Hon. favour of it. I know I am wasting my Mr. Lavery. words, and that before the Bill was printed Hon. P. Rt. H. LAVERY: I do not wish it was the intention of some that this to show any disrespect to members. I was measure would never Pass this Place. referring to the position of this House with That, however, does not prevent me from having the right to express an opinion on respect to legislation. Perhaps I am a behalf of my electors. I would wish for little one-eyed- the Bill to be passed, but I know that it Hon. H. Hearn: Only a little? will not be. [2 November, 1955.] 1527

HON. J. D. TEAHAN (North-East) Hon. 0. BENNErrS: Everyone would [7.43]: 1 cannot see anything wrong with then be Compelled to vote for the Parlia- giving the wife of an elector already en- ment which represents the country. That rolled the right to vote. would be just as fair to one party as the Hon. J. MCI. Thomson: noes this Bill other. Why should we be frightened of do that? compulsory voting? Hon. Sir Charles Latham: We intro- Hon. J. D. TEAHAN: Yes. It is said duced it. that there is no demand for this right on the part of women. We do not know what Hon. 0. BENNEflS: If this House was the demand Is. There are many matters wiped out, the State would be saved in respect of which there is no apparent £100,000 a year. demand, but for which a demand never- Hon. H. Hearn: It would be a great theless exists. For instance, we do not disappointment to you. have men and. women demanding to be able to speak on the Esplanade or the Do- Hon. 0. BENNETTS: No. I earned my main or in Hyde Park. However, each living before I came here, and I could and every one of us would vote for the do it again. right of any person to speak at those Hon. J1. MCI. Thomson: You were places, and would jealously preserve that younger then. right, just as we would seek to preserve the right of free speech. Hon. 0. BENNgTTS: Perhaps. But I would not be frightened to go out and There may be no demand by women for do some good healthy work again. The the right to vote for the Legislative Coun- money saved could be well spent on hos- cil, but there is nothing wrong in giving pitals or institutions for the aged people, them that right. It has been said that the or some similar project. Mr. Lavery said wife is only a duplicate voice of her hus- that we have never had a Labour Govern- band. I am certain that is not correct. ment although Labour has been in power. The Chief Secretary: It is the other The Chief Secretary: Not in power: in way round is it not? office. Hon. J. D. TEAHAN: Yes. Sometimes Hon. 0. BENNETrS: Whatever is passed it can be said that the husband is the in the Legislative Assembly is challenged duplicate voice of the wife. In many and thrown out In this House. Unless homes the wife is the manager. Some- legislation is suitable to the Liberal and times husband and wife jointly manage the Country Parties, it is a waste of time pass- home. How many businesses are jointly Ing it. I am surprised at members debarring controlled by husband and wife? The wife their wives, or the wives of property has as much right to make a choice as the owners or the men who pay the rent, from husband. having the right to vote. I heard one member say the other night that If we study certain elections that have insufficient Press publicity is given to what taken place in Western Australia in recent takes place in Parliament. That is because months, we can see that women have the the people are debarred from voting, and right to vote and be candidates. I can they take no interest in it. mention one--Dorothy Tangney. I have heard many women say, "No matter what Hon. N. E. Baxter: That is not correct. my husband thinks, I will vote for a certain Hon. 0. BENNE"s: One member said lady." There are other women prominent that some time back he had a newspaper in Western Australia, but I will not men- in which a Page was devoted to the tion their names. Members know who speeches made in this House. they are. They have their opinions and their followers. While we may say there Hon. H. Hearn: That was before you is no apparent demand, there is no harm came here. in giving people the right to vote by allow- Hon. 0. BENNET'S: Not before I came ing them to be enrolled. As the vote is to this State. Today not a line is given voluntary and not compulsory, I suggest to the proceedings in this Chamber. The that we let them have the vote if they so House is considered not to be important, desire. I intend to support the second but useless. It is useful only for the reading. destruction of any policy which the Labour Government puts up. HON. G. DENNETTS (South-East) [7.46]: A Bill similar to this is introduced Hon. H. Hearn: What rot! into the House each year in an endeavour Hon. 0. BENNEflS: I am surprised to bring about a fairer control of this at members voting against the measure. Chamber. In my opinion the Bill does When I saw the Bill on the notice paper, not go far enough. I would like to see I thought I would see members rushing in compulsory voting brought in. to support it so as to give to their wives Hon. Sir Charles Latham: You can and relations the right to vote. One mem- move an amendment to that effect.- ber said there was no demand for this 1528 1528[COUNCIL.] legislation. I know that during the recent We have listened to a great deal of elections we were asked whether we would debate during which all sorts of reasons 'vote to abolish the Legislative Council. have been advanced as to why the Bill should not be Passed. We have heard it Hon. A. F. Griffith: What did you say? said that it has been introduced merely Eon. G. BENNETrS: I said I would. I for political purposes. The member who 'would vote for its abolition tomorrow. If made that remark must be imbued with fIt is good enough for anyone to live on political bigotry; otherwise he would not a pension, it will do me. make the suggestion. Eon. H. Hearn: You can retire at any The State is divided into ten provinces, time. and in those Provinces there are people of all political complexions. They are free- Hon. G. BENNETTS: I get my living holders and householders, and when they from the salary I receive here; I am not go to the poll, their vote is taken by means like some other members who have a big of a secret ballot and no one knows how income as well. With me it is one man they vote. To talk about the Political one job. advantage that would be obtained is The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order' II ridiculous. We ask that a responsible sec- ask the hon. member to keep to the sub- tion of the community-the wives and ject matter of the Bill. mothers of the families of the State; and be it remembered that the family life of Hon. G. BENNEflS: If everyone in a country is the basic foundation of the the Howse was on the same footing there country-shall have this right. Yet mem- might be a different outlook and the bers continue to deny them the right to be womenfolk might be given an equal right enrolled and exercise a vote. to vote. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! II Person who Is standing in the HON. E. M. DAVIES (West) [7.50]: I ask the am at a loss to understand some of the Gallery to resume his seat. reasons given by members for not support- Hon. E. M. DAVIES: We have listened to ing the measure. I can recall that when a lot of reasons given by members tonight the Liberal and Country Parties were on but no tangible reason has been put for- the hustings in 1947, it was stated by them ward in opposition to the measure other that if they were elected to govern they than that members have said that it will would broaden the Legislative Council be compulsory for people to go to the poll. franchise. The Liberal-Country Party I have already pointed out that that is coalition Government brought down a Eml not so. after that election, so that it could say to Hon. N. E. Baxter: Who said that? the people, "We made a promise and we brought down a Bill, but the Legislative Hon. E. M. DAVIES: It merely gives Council refused to pass it." But they did them the right to have their names placed not say who the members of the Legis- on the roil and to exercise the vote if lative Council were. When the Bill came they so desire. I am at a loss to understand here, the very people who subscribed to the why members should object when the only policy put forward on the hustings, voted thing we are doing by the Bill is to give against it. to a responsible section of the community the right to have a say in the legislation Subsequently. when Bills were introduced in this House. by the Government I have the honour to that is dealt with support, we were told that If they had been on motion by Hon. R. P. Hutchison. introduced in this Chamber they might debate adjourned. have had a chance of receiving support; But because they were Introduced in the BILL-BANK HOLIDAYS ACT Assembly and sent here, they were not AMIENDMENT. given support: or that was the reason given Second Reading. for not supporting them. The present Bill has been Introduced into this Cham- Debate resumed from the previous day. ber by the Chief Secretary, who Is the Leader of the House, and all it provides is HON. Silt CHARLES LATHiAM (Cen- that the wife of a freeholder or house- holder shall be entitled to be enrolled on tral) (7.58]: 1 wondered whether the Min- the Legislative Council roll, and may. if she ister moved this item forward because he so desires, exercise a vote in the Legislative had a gallery for the occasion. If so. I Council elections. compliment him. The argument has been raised that these The Chief Secretary: I always like to 'women will be compelled to vote. Mem- meet the requirements of people. bers say they do not believe in making the Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I wish vote compulsory. The Bill provides nothing the Minister would meet the requests I put of the sort; it merely gives these women up on behalf of my electors. I am not go- the right to be enrolled and to exercise the ing to hesitate to say that I disagree with vote If they so desire. There is no com- the Bill, and the reason is that it seeks pulsion. to give something to a favoured few. I [2 November, 1955.] 152952

have the greatest respect for the bank of- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I do not. ficials. generally, but I say they have the But I do not like to see people wanting easiest work of any service that I am aware to do less work for more money. When of. that happens, the State suffers;, and if there is one section of the community Hon. C. W. D. Barker: How would you which ought to know that, it is the bank know that? officials. They are here tonight to listen Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I am to the discussion; and I hope my few re- perhaps not as unintelligent as is the hon. marks will make them realise that they member. are the people who ought to have some thought for the future welfare of our Hon. C. W. D. Barker: How would you country-a lot more thought than they know? seem to have. This country, which has only a small population, offers the best Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM.* I do opportunities in the world. I have travel- know. I happen to have some friends in led a good deal, and I do not know of any a bank, and frequently they leave the bank other country which offers more oppor- at four o'clock in the afternoon because tunity for the teeming millions of Chinese, they have by then completed their work. Japanese, Indians I am aware that many others are less and Indonesians. fortunate and have to work their full hours. Hon. C. W. D. Barker: I agree. The Chief Secretary: I know many [The President resumed the Chair.] people who play golf during the afternoon. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: They are Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Those a privileged few. I hope the Chief Secre- people would like to take over this coun- tary is not one. try; I am as sure of that as I am that my name is Latham. H-on. H. Reamn: He is hoping to be. Hon. C. W, D. Barker: I have been tel- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I do not ling you that all the time. know that we should pick out one section Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Then I of the community. The banks and bank hope the hon. member will do his best officers serve a useful purpose in the busi- to ensure that we attract to this country ness affairs of any country. If we are go- a. Population of our own kind: and see ing to allow the banks to close, then let that those people are given an oppor- us do the job completely and close all the tunity of providing for themselves and business houses. I remind members, and for the wealth of this country. the listeners in the gallery, that every time The Chief Secretary: If the banks close we do this sort of thing, we depreciate the on Saturday mornings those value of our money. Let us understand people will what wealth is. It is not money paid out not come here! to people, but the production of the soil Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: We will and the manual work of the individual. not attract the right type of people if we The more we work and the more we pro- hold out as a bait the Idea of fewer hours of duce, the wealthier we become. work and more money. These bank people are not helping the country by not want- Hon: R. F. Hutchison: Some of us. ing to work on Saturday mornings. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM After Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: Are they going to listening to the hon. member's speech last work fewer hours because of it? night, I am not the slightest bit interested in her interjections. Those who wish only Hon. J. D. Teahan: They will work the to enjoy themselves, and are not prepared same hours. to work and produce, are of little use to Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I know this country. I have had experience of from friends of mine in banks that if they it and I1 know what I am talking about. complete their work by four o'clock they Had it not been for the people who went go home, because there is nothing else out into the back Parts of Western Aus- to do. This Bill is not a Government tralia with me in the early days, to carve measure. It was brought down by a pri- out a future for this State, we would be vate individual. in a much worse position today. Hon. N. E. Baxter: He hopes to go back Do niot let us forget that in those days to the bank. people did not obtain much help from the banks. The struggle was severe. Imn- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Yes: if mediately the markets drop-and they are he is readmitted, he will Join the bank dropping today-the people suffer. In after the next election. I want to impress those days people were earning only a few upon the people of this country that we shillings per day; whereas today they are are not going to help Western Australia earning pounds. by having fewer hours of labour and by doing less work for the country. Probably Hon. C. W. D. Barker: You do not want this speech sounds like a lecture to mem- to see those days again. bers. But I have grown old in the service 1530 1530COUNCIL.] of this country, and I am anxious--and I Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I know hope everybody realises it-to Make sure they did. I do not want People to be led that everyone is aware of the great re- astray. The people of this land must sponsibility he has to this country today. be prepared to work so that we can hold When I was a young fellow, we had a this country for our future population. A population of a little over 200,000 People little while ago, the Minister said that a Bill might be introduced along these lines. in this State; and by a gradual process, It was carried in another place by one we have built it up. Today we are envied vote. Another place might be called an by all other parts of the world. Many elective House, or the House of the people; people in other places are struggling to but has a different standard get a crust to eat. We are educating the this House representatives of those countries because from others- they are sent to our university. Those The Chief Secretary: So we have found representatives are returning to their own out. lands and telling the people how the women and children here do not have to Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: -inas- go out to the paddy fields and plant rice. much as we have the property qualifi- No one can tell me that these people are cation. not sufficiently intelligent to be able to educate the masses of their country and Hon. H. Heamn: The Chief Secretary to build for the day when they will be would like to stay here. able to Come here and we, with our small Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: This population, will not be able to hold them House represents the stability of the State. off.I the wealth of the State- Western Australia is worse off than the other States because of its Isolation. What Hon. R. P. Hutchison: It represents was going to happen when the Japanese about one-third of the people. were advancing day after day during the Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: -the last war? I was a member of a deputa- properties of the State, and the industries tion which represented the Government of the State. Legislation introduced here of this State-although I was in Opposi- Is given careful consideration, and we can tion-and we were sent to Canberra to boast that this State has some of the best interview the Prime Minister and to ask industrial legislation in Australia. We are him to arrange for some defence for in advance of other States of the Com- Western Australia. If it was not forth- monwealth; and I ask these young folk in coming we had no earthly hope of holding the banks,-I am sure the older ones do our State. not want this Bill, unless the Minister is We are misleading these young people. right, and I am wrong-to realise what We are makting them believe that by hav- they are doing. Whenever I have been to ing easier times, more enjoyment, more see a bank official I have always done so pleasure, and more money to spend they when the banks were open. are doing good for themselves. They are not. They are not doing any good for lion. H. Hearn: The Minister was talking themselves or for the country, and I ap- about business tycoons. peal to the public generally to appreciate Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The that f act. We do not have to work long banks are open to the public at 10 am. and hours as was the case when I was a lad. Close at 5 P.m. and when the Minister was a lad. We did not have a 44-hour or a 48-hour week. Hon. r. R. H. Lavery: They close at 3 p.m. to the Public. Hon. R. F. Hutchison: We do not have to live with that forever. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: In my young days all calculations had to be done Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Things by the brain, but in these days they are have changed since those days; but let done by mechanical means. us consolidate as we change. We had a diatribe from Mrs. Hutchison last night The Chief Secretary: That is why the about all the poverty in this State. What workers should get greater benefits. makes poverty? I have tried to explain H-on. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Will the it. it is simply that we produce goods and banks reduce their staffs -when they in- are unable to sell them. We have to troduce these mechanical calculators? distribute the wealth among the people; Every day there are advertisements for and I beg members to have a saner outlook people with industrial or scientific know- and remember that we have a great re- ledge. People who work in the banks are sponsibility. Surely to goodness our men highly educated, and they could fill those did not go away to fight for this country positions. Today we are not able to ad- with the idea that we should carry on vance as we ought to do because the banks and eventually hand it over to someone are overstaffed. Let some of these people else! attend the uihiversity and qualify for some Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: Some of the bank of the highly-paid positions that are adver- officers went too. tised. (2 November, 1955.1 163113

Do not let us mislead people; do not transactions are carried out on Saturday let us think that we in this State are morning now than on any other two days wealthy, more particularly today when we of the week. are about to have a recession. We should not make any mistakes; I am quite sure The Chief Secretary: What have you about the statement I make. done for enjoyment all your life? Hon. F. R. H. Lavery- You have been Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM., I have saying that for three years. enjoyed myself by serving the State for Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I know 33 years. that we have some of last year's wheat, The PRESIDENT: Order!I People in and some from the year before that, the gallery must remain silent. which we have not been able to sell. Hon. C. W. D,. Barker: That is true. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM; I hope that for the last few years of my life in Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM* This year this House, my contributions to debates it looks as though we will have a record will be of some benefit to the State. This harvest. That wheat is still not sold. It is not a question to be laughed at. is worth 9 s. d. if we sell it; but if we do not, and it lies in the bins, it is worth H-on. C. W. D. Barker: The people of nothing. That is where the money to pay Western Australia are grateful to you. these people comes from. I beg them to Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Somne of remember that they are extremely lucky to them are; I know that. be in their present position; there are many in other parts of the world who are Hon. F. R. H. Lavery: A lot of them are. much less fortunate. Only recently I re- That is why you have been here for so turned from England, and Saturday mor- long. ning is the busiest time of the week for banks in the City of London and else- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Prob- where. ably I have as many friends as any other person In Western Australia. It is not be- The Chief Secretary: Friday night used cause of what I say, but because of what to be the busiest time here. I do. I hope I shall continue to have that friendship. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I know that; but we do not want to work all the While I am anxious to give the time. in Tasmania, all shops used to be young folk as much Pleasure as they open until 11 o'clock at night. But I do not want, they should not ask for something think we should cater for the public to that in excess of what it is possible for this extent. I think business houses should be State to contribute. We must accept our open at reasonable hours. I have been to responsibility in building this country, and the savings bank on a Saturday morning- there is only one way we can do so, and I understand that another savings bank that is by work. It cannot be done by is to be started soon-and I have found it refusing to give the people a service that to be the busiest time of the 'week for that they want; and the people in this country bank. I ask members to go there and see want that service on Saturday morning, for themselves. People who are paid on just as those in any other country of the Fridays bank their money on Saturdays, world require It. Some members have and I think we should commend these spoken about Tasmania and the conditions people for their thrifty habits. that apply there. We should not emulate the bad habits of other States and coun- In the paper this morning, I noticed tries. but we should continue to lead the that in many States bank deposits have way in our legislation as we have done in been reduced. But in Western Australia the past. they have increased, and we want to en- courage that thrift. What will happen if Today the young people are most for- people are not able to bank their savings? tunate, Inasmuch as they have modemn I do not want to cast any reflection on accounting machines to help them in their Parliament, but a betting Bill was passed, work; it Is not necessary for them to check and s.p. betting shops are now legal. They figures over and over again as was done In are a wonderful attraction to some people the past. My message to the young people who are easily tempted. I do not know is: Be content; service counts more than whether they bet in a moment of weak- anything else, whether a man be an engine ness; but it seems to be an attraction for driver, a tractor driver, or in any other some-it attracts them like honey does vocation. We must build our structure flies. I had somaething to say about poker from that foundation until the State it- machines and I cannot understand why self is built solidly enough to be able to people put shillings into them. Some withstand any attacks that are made from must try their luck. I cannot understand outside. The freedom of this country is it; but if people had an oppor- a mnost valuable Possession; and that pos- tunity to bank their pay on Saturday session is given to every one of us. mornings, less would be spent on betting Hon. J. 1). Teahan: Is this a mission to and so on. I should say that more banking the nation speech? .1532 CCOUNCIL.]

Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Not at to refuse to Permit a certain section to all. It is merely to tell these young people enjoy the fruits of those inventions and and old people that they are today carry- have more time off? ing the responsibility, and they must con- tinue to shoulder it. They will not be able There are more things than merely to do it by saying that they want more working in a Job. We work for a live- free hours for enjoyment. Today we must lihood; and if science is able to make consider what service we can render to the things easier, surely the ordinary people country, so that we can build it up and -who cannot enjoy certain things which advance: so that we will not be the ob- are secured through wealth-should be ject of jealousy of other countries by hav- permitted this small amenity! It would ing a great area with a small population. be for the good of the nation generally, quite apart from the angle of earning There is a problem ahead of the country; one's bread and butter. and I ask the young folk to give a little I have gone through thought to its future and to the responsi- the same times as bility they are carrying in its building. I Sir Charles Latham. I remember occa- do hope that they will not look back with sions when one had to work from morn- ,a pang of regret if the day should come ing to night; indeed, as long as one had -and I hope it never will-when we are an ounce of strength, one was required to serfs of the people of other countries continue to work. I have often seen my whom, I regret to say, we look upon as father come home and be too tired to being inferior to ourselves. enjoy a meal. I do not desire those days to return. I do not think it is neces- I cannot support the Bill, because I do sary to work longer hours to build our not think the time is opportune to ask nation. Shorter hours and mare ameni- for this consideration. I would again re- ties in the community will provide better quest the young folk to carry a little living, and I will continue to support any- more responsibility, and to join with us one that promotes that thought. in giving some solidarity to this State. There are many different categories of workers who enjoy a five-day week, and HON. R. F. HUTCHISON (Suburban) that is all this Bill seeks to provide. We [3.191: 1 have listened to Sir Charles will be told that while the shops open Latham with interest, and I propose to on Saturday, the banks must open. A start support the Bill. It is not a party must be made somewhere; and when any- measure. I support it because I will sup- one makes that start, I will support him. port anything that helps us towards a Mr. Baxter suggested that the measure better way of life. The fact that the bank sought shorter hours. That is completely officers are asking for Saturday morning false. off is setting an example. I hope they Hon. N. E. Baxter: It Is not. You tell will achieve their end, and that the House me how they are going to do it in five will accept the measure. days. The situation will adjust itself as it did Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: H-ow do other when the shop assistants first asked for avenues of employment do it? early closing on Friday night. I well re- member the outcry there was at that time, Hon. N. E. Baxter: They do not. when people said, "We cannot live with- Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: A reference out Friday night shopping. The house- was made about the difficulty of workers wives will not be able to get in their goods; being able to bank their money because and the world will become chaotic if the they are paid on a Friday night. What shops are closed on Friday night." The is wrong with being paid on Thursday, as shops were closed on Friday night, and is done in Tasmania? It would then be there is more order and ease to be found possible for them to bank their money now on that night. on Friday. If businesses were open till 2 o'clock on Sunday morning there would I was in Tasmania for a few months still be people coming in requiring some- and I found that everything there closes thing. This will make life orderly, and on Friday night. I also found that there these people are entitled to it. I cannot is far more happiness and enjoyment see anything wrong with it. among the families in that State. It is possible to plan to go out; there are bet- When I was a girl, it was only the bank ter gardens; and people indulge in all People, and what we termed the white- sorts of activities that promote the good collar workers, that were able to Play ten- of the community. nis. It was something set aside for the favoured few. I never learnt tennis; but It does not matter how old-fashioned my Young sister was a champion because Sir Charles Latham likes to be. I have she went to school and was taught how kept on telling him that we live In a to Play. Would members say that she changing era. What is the good of science or I had the better youth? I want every- and the brains of man if, after Invent- one to have a good Youth, because that ing machines to make work lighter, we are is the time one enjoys oneself, and it is [2 November, 1955.] 1533 that which leads to the making of good clubs and they go out to play hockey parents and citizens, and enables one to and other sport. It is necessary for meet the inevitable responsibilities associ- them to be on the playing field by ated with family life. Overtime is not one o'clock on Saturday afternoon; and if paid on a daily basis except on Saturdays they do not leave the bank before from 12 o'clock and on Sundays and bank one o'clock it is not possible for them to holidays. arrive in time, which means that they upset the match and are left out of the One of the wildest statements I can team. I am sure nobody will say that remember hearing, was made by Mr. these young people should not have their Diver. He referred to the bank clerks as sport on Saturday afternoon. Or would the aristocrats of the white-collar workers. they? I wonder why there should be these social divisions at all. We could not live with- Hon. H. Hearn: If work interferes with out the rubbish man coming in to collect pleasure, cut out work! the rubbish; and somebody must wash the Hon. Rt. F. HUTCHISON: The ordinary decks in the navy. There is dignity in working hours of officers, exclusive of labour, and there is nothing wrong with meal hours, shall not exceed 40 in any that. one week. That is the award. All these Mon. L. C. Diver: What is wrong with people desire is to work those 40 hours in my statement? five days. Hon. ft. P. HUTCHISON: The hon. mem- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Whether it ber said that the bank clerks were the is convenient to the public or not. aristocrats of the white-collar workers. with no economic training; which I Hon. Rt. F. HUTCHISON: Mr. Griffith thought was in very poor taste. He also complained that this is a political move, said that they joined the banks In order and that Mr. Johnson had written to the to be bank managers; to sit with their feet Bunbury bank officers saying that Labour under a desk and dictate without any con- was their only hope of getting this reform. science to the poor hard-working farmer. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: What did The farmer works for himself and pleases they do? himself as to what he does. Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: His com- One of the demands for this Bill stems plaint is proof of the truth of that state- from the loss of status. Nearly all the ment. Is it only Labour People who are white-collar workers work five days a supporting the Bill, or will members op- week, and have caught up with the bank posite vote for it? clerks on the Question of holidays, pen- sions, etc. Until recently, bank officers had Hon. Sir Charles Latham: You do not one week's holiday per year more than know what you are supporting, half the other workers. This has been caught up time. with. Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: That is not The idea of Mr. Diver that bank man- correct. agers are inexperienced clerks dictating Hon. Sir Charles Latham: It Is correct. to divinely-inspired farmers is completely false. Bank managers are appointed from Hon. Rt. F. HUJTCHISON: The hon. bank officers of many Years' experience: member is on the spot now. and that experience Is generally gained Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Not at all. in many regions of the State. Their func- The PRESIDENT: Order! tion is financial advice, just as that of the farmers is farming. No bank manager Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: I say this, would presume to tell a farmer how to and say it advisedly and sincerely as a plant his wheat; but he would be able to woman and a mother, that the pressure advise him as to how big a crop he should of life today is causing serious nervous grow. Banks desire financially stable cus- reaction to the people who have to work. tomers. and bank managers aim at pre- There are more nervous breakdowns venting farmers doing the stupid things nowadays than ever before, and the so many of them would do If left to them- psychological aspect must be considered. In the past, the doctors did not suspect selves. that nervous disorders were associated Several members interjected. with the work of the patient, but today The PRESIDENT: Order! we know that there is a close relationship. Consequently, we should do our utmost to Hon. R. P. HUTCISON: About one- relieve workers of unnecessary strain. The third of the bank employees are women. machine age necessitates a greater number They are mostly young people; and after of hours of leisure to make up for the pres- a few years, they marry. But there is a sure of work. large staff turn-over of women because more of them leave to take up Jobs in There is something more In life than which they would only work five days a spending so much time in working. The week. More of them seek other avenues of ordinary person now does not know very employment, than get married. These much about art, but the younger genera- days the young people are members of tion will have greater opportunities to study [COUNCIL.] it. The young men and women who are grazing stock, a large part of our initial growing up will know quite well how to trouble from erosion has disappeared. employ the leisure that is available to them However, there still remain two dangers and how to enjoy life. A country is only as in the drier areas. One is that farms great as its people are happy; and if our change hands and are taken over by new- people are not contented we cannpt expect comers who lack the experience of the our country to be great. older settlers, and some of them are On motion by Hon. H. Hearn, debate inclined to exploit the soil. Though they have been counselled not to adopt certain adjourned. procedure on light soils in particular, BILL--SOIL CONSERVATION ACT some of them have endeavoured to cash in and get as much return from the land AMENDMENT. as possible in the shortest space of time, Second Reading. and the procedure that has been adopted has proved to be very undesirable as far Debate resumed from the 27th October. as soil conservation is concerned. HON. L. C. DIVER (Central) (8.321: Soil Another instance I wish to mention con- conservation is one of the most important cerns the drier areas. There is a tract of subjects we have to discuss. The soil is light land that for many years was our heritage. We who use the land are despised simply because it was not pos- only the trustees for the soil. I do niot sible to grow a payable crop on it; but suppose there is anything more important with the discovery of soil deficiencies and than the fertility of the soil; and it be- the use of trace elements, it was found hoves every farmer-and, in fact, everyone that the land would produce quite pay- who comes into contact with or has the able crops, and with the increase in the handling of soil-to ensure that he leaves price of wheat in the last few years. It for posterity better than he found it. thousands of acres of this second class land have been rolled and cleared and I speak with a deal of feeling on this put under production. Those who are subject because I was one of those settlers charged with the responsibility of soil who went into the wheat belt in 1910. In conservation should watch the position those days, the land was covered with closely in order to prevent a repetition of natural timber and scrub. Since then. I the state of affairs that occurred in the have seen literally millions of acres of the early days of settlement in the wheatbelt, countryside being denuded of the original especially in the thirties, when farmers vegetation. I have seen watercourses when were exhorted to grow more wheat, and clearing in the minor stage was being so much damage was done by erosion. done creating a problem that is likely to trouble us for Years. I have seen the There is another type of soil erosion lighter soils of the wheat belt when the that occurs in the areas of heavier rain- farming was essentially wheat growing, fall. due substantially to the heavy rain- I allowed in one Year and cropped the fall, combined with the exploitation of the next; and the soil was battered in such soil in the days when the districts along a way by foolish and inexperienced People the great Avon Valley were producing and the land was so friable that the heavy enormous quantities of wheaten hay. For winds that blew periodically caused im- something like 00 years, the greater portion mense drifts of the surface soil. of that country was worked on a fallow- crop rotation, and was perhaps knocked About the same time, we had the in- about even more than the drier belt which vasion of the rabbit from the east, and I mentioned earlier, because the crops then wholesale fencing became necessary year after year were cut for hay, which to keep the rabbits out. With the pre- was carted away from the soil on which valence of dust storms, the soil piled up; it was grown. No stocking took place to and in the following winter, when heavy build up the soil, which was consequently rainfall occurred, the watercourses were denuded of practically every element nec- changed for considerable distances. essary for growing crops. As most members are aware, the topo- It was fortuitous that, coincident with graphy of that country is mainly flat, or the reduction of the wheat cropping in slightly undulating, and the drift I have those areas, the tractor age came upon mentioned was particularly heavy when us, and at the same time the subterranean the water came down in torrents. With clover was evolved. It was found that this change in the watercourses, the liner subterranean clover thrived under the soil, particles of dust, representing tons and rainfall and general climatic conditions tons of soil, were washed down Into the which prevailed in the Avon Valley area. lakes and ultimately reached the rivers. The result was that greater stocking took As the years passed and experience was place; and year after year more sheep gained, farmers undertook the rotation of were carried, until today in those areas the crops and then we witnessed the spectacle stocking is really tremendous. of grazing occurring. By the introduction We were very fortunate that the time of clovers and the growing of huge areas came at last when, with the advent of of oats put in for the main purpose of the tractor and subterranean clover, and [2 November, 1955.1 131535 through the heavy stacking of the country have mentioned a committee of three ac- with sheep, the soil was able to regain the tive farmers be appointed from the dis- elements it had lost and perhaps become trict concerned, a majority decision of that even richer than it was in its original committee to be final. state. When those farmers now sow cereals they get better yields than ever. Hon. C. W. D). Barker;. That would In addition to this, the building up of almost make it a family affair. the soil has meant that the particles hold Han. L. C. DIVER: Mr. Barker Is show- together; and soil erosion in that area Ing how little he understands the subject. today would have been infinitely worse If he lived in the agricultural areas, he than it is had the developments I have would realise that farmers such as I refer mentioned not taken place. to have the interests of the soil at heart; As members know, the Soil Conservation and if they were convinced that action Act was passed in 1945, and the Minister was necessary, they would be the first to for Agriculture has a committee actively enforce it. I can recall a local authority engaged in policing soil conservation. The being charged with enforcing the regula- Bill seeks to amend Part 5 of the 1945 Act. tions for the control of grasshoppers, and It seeks to put more life Into the Act and they rode the horse with spurs on that make it more workable, so that the de- occasion, because it was a matter of self- partmental officers and the Bail Conserva- preservation; and that would apply in an tion Committee will be able to act more instance such as this. readily. I wish the same doctrine could As the Minister said, the vast majority be put into effect in many others Acts. of farmers work in co-operation with the so that our public service could work along Department of Agriculture in this respect, these lines. and it is only the odd man out who re- There is one feature of the Bill, however, quires controlling. It will be on rare oc- that I do not like. Clause 34 states-- casions only that any appeal will crop up. An owner or occupier of land who Hon. H. K. Watson: But when it does objects to a soil conservation order, or happen, the body which hears the appeal an interim soil conservation order should be both impartial and competent. notice of which is so served upon him, may within two weeks of service of I-on. L. C. DIVER: That Is the point. notice of the order, appeal against the It must understand the subject, know the order to the Minister by causing conditions and have the confidence of the written rounds of his objection to be appellant so that he will know he has had served on the Minister, who shall con- a fair go. sider the objections and notify the appellant of his decision confirming, Hon. G. Bennetts: But the Agricultural varying, or quashing the order. Department officers could do that. That may sound all right, but it is a Hon. La. C. DIVER: Many of these officers little bit sweeping. In the course of time, come out to advise the farmers; and when many men will ocupy the position of Mini- they are asked what is the best thing to do, ster for Agriculture, and some of them it is very hard to get them to accept the may not have much knowledge of the sub- responsibility of making a definite recom- ject, with the result that they will be mendation. I do not blame them for that, guided by the very officers who have pre- as they have not had the practical experi- viously recommended that certain action ence. be taken. A young man asked me how he should Hon. H. K. Watson: The officer con- treat a certain piece of land, and I gave cerned will sit Pat on his recommendation him my advice, but suggested that he and decision. should not take what I had said for gospel Hon. L. C. DIVER: That is so. Sub- but should get departmental advice on it, clause (2) of Clause 34 adds the final When the departmental officer went along touch in saying that the decision of the to give advice, he would give no firm Minister is final. opinion at all on the matter; and I do not blame him for that. These officers H-on. A. R. Jones: But he must consult carry out certain experiments and know the committee. the answer to many questions theoretically. Hon. L. C. DIVER: Yes; but the com- mittee will have recommended the action They know the result of an experimnent taken. In the past 40 years, we have had under certain climatic and soil conditions; some Ministers for Agriculture who had yet under similar conditions in another very little practical experience of the sub- district, the answer may not be the same ject, and some of them had none. at all. The key-line method of control was mentioned by Mr. Barker. I H-on. C. W. 1). Barker: H-ow can you read the speech of the Minister for overcome that? Agriculture when introducing the meas- Hon. L. C. DIVER: When the Bill is in ure, and he said what the Bill sought Committee. I will move an amendment to achieve but did not mention how seeking to provide that in case such as I the department was tackling the problem. 1536 1536[COUNCIL.]

I was on a deputation of active tanners Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: Yes; but the from the Beverley district which recently Government should have some clear-cut waited on the Minister and the question plan in order to tackle this problem and of experinents with a key-line plan came to carry out some experiments. I would up. I would have thought the Minister like to refer particularly to the key-line would avail himself of that opportunity to plan. I was interested to hear Mr. Diver mention the subject, but he did not. refer to it, and also that he had put it forward to the Minister. It is a plan that Hon. C. W. D. Barker: That plan has only is worth studying; and in my opinion to do with water erosion. some experimental work should be under- taken to ascertain whether we can get H-on. L. C. DIVER: Granted. Any- the same results as have been obtained in one acquainted with agriculture knows other parts of the world. It is no wonder that the key-line plan is a method of that we suffer from soil erosion as a re- lossening the sdI to great depth over a sult of the action of wind and water and large area so that the maximum absorp- of over-stocking. tion of moisture can be obtained. The Minister for the North-West: And Another point has come to my mind. I drought. have mentioned that the farmers are the Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: Yes, and trustees of the soil, and I have said that drought. The day is fast approaching it is our duty to leave the soil in a better when we in the North will have to give state than we found it for the sake of this subject particular attention. If we posterity. in this House we have also are to have closer settlement-and I hope passed legislation whereby, wheat and and believe that we are-we will have to coarse-grain farmers shall contribute to preserve these large tracts of land which a fund that will try to make the soil today are being washed away down the better than It was originally. The Minister, rivers. The soil is also being blown away when introducing the Bill, made no men- and nothing is being done about it. When tion of the Government making money the Government considers this important available on a £ for I basis as the State's question of the preservation of the soil, I contribution, because everybody realises hope it will include that part of the that we are endeavouring to conserve the State to which soil for our children and their children's I have referred. children. I do not think anyone can object to the Bill. Mr. Diver dealt with the clause to I trust that the few remarks I have which he objects. I do not altogether made on the measure to Indicate the atti- agree with him that the decision of the tude I am adopting towards it will meet Minister should not be final when an ap- with the whole-hearted support of the peal is made. After all is said and done, House. With the reservations I have re- when an appeal is lodged, the Minister will ferred to, I support the Bill. get In touch with all his various officers in the department. The decision will not HON. C. WI.D. BARKER (North) (9.21: be his alone. It will be reached after ob- I also support the Bill. I have listened taining advice from experts on the sub- with great interest to Mr. Diver, realising ject. that he is an authority on this subject. Hon. L. C. Diver: We have a lot of ex- My opinion is that we in the North, with perts. the advent of closer settlement almost Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: We must upon us, must also take great care to pre- acknowledge the experience of a practical serve the soil. This year, whilst making man, but I cannot see that it would be a tour of the North, I saw thousands of any advantage to put three men on a acres on one of Vestey's properties being local committee. I must admit, however, badly wind-eroded as a result of over- that Mr. Diver has lent some weight to stocking. The soil was eaten right out, his argument that the farmers in this in- and it was being blown away with the stance are simply protecting their own wind. Mr. Diver never said a truer word livelihood and existence. than when he stated that we. are the cuis- todians of the soil, and I think everyone However, the matter could be left for will agree that the nation's wealth lies in the Minister to decide without any trouble. the soil. He would have the best of advice available to him from the men on the committee, The Bill intends to give power to those and also from those officers who are in authority to deal with those few people trained in agricultural science. If the who have no regard for soil conservation. decision were left to the Minister, I1 am The problem today in the wheat belt is not sure his judgment could be relied upon. as great as it was. Since the advent of With those few remarks, I support the cover crops, and as science has advanced Bill. more and more, we have reached the point where we can, to some extent, deal with On motion by Hon. L. A. Logan, debate the problem. adjourned. Hon. L. C. Diver: I dealt with that point. House adjourned at 9.8 pa.