[21 September, 1954.1 1711 should any distinction be drawn between farmers in a forest area and those out- 1ruiatiiw Ot"oimnl side? There could be considerable areas of agricultural land miles away from a Tuesday, 21st September, 1954. forest area, but because of a certain fire hazard, the farmers in those areas would CONTENTS. not be permitted to burn. It may be said Page that I expressed this view in voting for Bills : Factories and Shops Act Amendment, the amendment by the member for Roe, but I should prefer to see discretion given Supreme Court Act Amendment, 2r., to the district fire officer. Corn., report------.1711 Administration Act Amendment, 2r-. .... 1712 Mr. HEARMAN: May I alter my amend- Cown Suits Act Amendment, 2r, Corn, ment, Mr. Chairman, by inserting after report ..------... 1713 the word "State," the words "karri and Traffic Act Amendment (No. 1), Zr...1714 jarrah"? State Electricity Commission Act Amend- ment, 2r., Corn., report------1718 The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member may Health Act Amendment (No. 1), 2r.. :1716 withdraw his amendment and move it Pries Control, 2r. -...... 1720 afresh after rewording it, or he may get Industrial Arbitration Act Amendment another member to move for the insertion Bill, 2r...... 1721 of those words as an amendment on the Physiotherapists Act Amendment, 2r..1725 amendment. Jury Act Amendment, Assembly's mes- Mr. NALDER: I move- Wae...... 1728 That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word "State" the words "karri and jarrah." The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30 Amendment, on amendment, put and p.m.. and read prayers. passed. Mr. HEARMAN: The amendment as BILL-FACTORIES ANT) SHOPS ACT amended, should overcome many of the AMENDMENT. objections that have been raised by the Read a third time and returned to the Leader of the Opposition. I do not wish Assembly with an amendment. to reiterate what I have already said. Amendment as amended put and a BILL-SUPREME COURT ACT division taken with the following result:- AMENDMENT. Second Reading. Nyes .. 17 18 Debate resumed from the 16th Septem- Majority against .. ber. - BON. H. K. WATSON (Metropolitan) Ayes. [4.37]: This is a Hill which I think will Mr. Abbott Mr. Nelder commend itself to the House, inasmuch Mr. Brand Mr. Nimmo as it is designed to facilitate the day to Mr. Cornell Mr. North day working of the Supreme Court, and Mr. Court Mr. Oidfteid Mr. Doney Mr. Owen to attend to one or two other matters Mr. Hearman Mr. Wild which will simplify and expedite the ad- Mr. HI Mr. Yates of the other Mr. Manning Mr. Hutchinso) n ministration of justice. Most Sir Ross MeLarty (Teller.) amendments contained in the Bill are of Noes. a machinery character. Mr. Graham Mr. Lawrence The Supreme Court, like most other Mr. Hawke Mr. McCulloch doubtless Mr. Heal Mr. Norton organisations; and institutions, Mr. W. Hegney Mr. Nulsen finds that the business to which it has Mr. Hoar Mr. flhatlgan to attend today is considerably greater Mr. Jlamieson Mr. Sleeman than that of 10 or 20 years ago. Provision Mr. Johnson Mr. Styants Mr. Kelly Mr. Tonkin is therefore made in the Hill for the de- Mr. Lapham Mr. May finition of "Master" of the Supreme Court. (Telle,., and for the appointment of a deputy. The Pairm. measure also lays down the duties of the Ayes. N040. registrar. Opportunity is taken in the Mr. Man Mr. J. flegney Bill to leave it to the discretion of the Mr. Havenl Mr. Guthrie Mr. Watts Mr. O'Brien Chief Justice or, failing him, the senior Dames P. Cardell-Ollver Mr. Moir judge, to decide just when the Supreme Mr. Perkins Mr. Andrew Court shall go on circuit. Mr. Ackland Mr. Sewell Apparently the Act at present lays down Amendment, as amended, thus ne gatived. some hard and fast rule, but it Is not Progress reported. always desirable or convenient that that rule should be adhered to by the court. House adjourned at 6.15 p.m. I feel it is desirable that the court itself 1aqj . 1712 1712COUNCIL.]

should determine at what periods and for this provision should not apply where the how many periods it should go on circuit value of the land proposed to be sold does throughout the State during the year. A not exceed £500, or where the gross value couple of further points dealt with in the of the estate of which the land forms part Bill are concerned with the ordinary pro- is assessed at less than £2,000; and the Bill cesses of law. seeks to give effect to this recommenda- It seems extraordinary that when the tion. sheriff is acting and executing his duties Hon. H. K. Watson: Both of those values under a writ of fi f a, it is not quite clear are pretty low, are they not? whether, in the event of a property being submitted to auction and not sold at The CHIEF SECRETARY: They seem auction, that officer then has power to to be low on today's values. However, I sell it by public tender. The Bill makes it suggest that we could have a look at them clear that if the property which is the more closely in Committee to ascertain subject of a writ is not sold by auction, whether any alterations are necessary. it may be sold by public tender. There Powers to lease, sell, or mortgage are is also a minor provision in the Bill which often conferred by a will; and, in such defines what Australian consular officers cases, the testator usually carefully chooses may execute notarial acts beyond Austra- as his executor a person he considers can lia. That provision has been inserted in be trusted to exercise prudence in connec- the Bill at the request of the Common- tion with any possible transaction. In a wealth Government. case where no will has been made, Section I understand that all the proposals 18 provides a safeguard for the protection in the Dill have been brought for- of the estate. ward at the request of the Master of However, where land of small value is the Supreme Court with the concurrence concerned, or where the land forms part of the Chief Justice. I think the measure of a small estate, the expense of obtaining should commend itself to the House and the written consents of all beneficiaries, Pass the second reading. or an order of the court, is often not war- ranted. Frequently, considerable trouble Question put and passed. occurs in procuring all the necessary con- Bill read a second time. sents; and where any of the beneficiaries is under the age of 21 years. an order of In Committee. the court must be obtained. Bill Passed through Committee without In the event of an administrator abus- debate, reported without amendment and ing the power given him under the pro- the report adopted. posed amendment, the beneficiaries would have a remedy against him. at common BILL-ADMINISTRATION law; and, as only small sums would be in- ACT volved, this should prove sufficient pro- AMENDMENT. tection for a beneficiary. Second Reading. The second amendment refers to the THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. G. bond into which Section 26 of the parent Fraser-West) [4.451 in moving the second Act requires an administrator to enter. reading said: Each of the amendments This provision specifies that, except where in this Bill was suggested this year by the the contrary is expressly enacted, every Chief Justice: and the Bill has been person to whom administration is granted, checked and approved by His Honour, shall, prior to the issue of administration,. who has stated it will execute the bond prescribed in Section 27. deal satisfactorily This bond must be supported by one or with certain difficulties in connection with two sureties in respect to the administration of comparatively small the collecting, estates of intestate persons. His Honour getting in, and administering of thereal said that the proposals in the Bill will and personal estate of the deceased per- cheapen administration and give better son. Protection to beneficiaries, However, the Act does not provide that almost all of these sureties shall be liable for any de- whom are widows and children. He drew faults of an administrator once he be- attention to the fact that the Bill would comes a trustee-that is, after he has not affect any direction or wish of persons cleared the estate by payment of funeral who make wills. expenses, debts, and legacies. The distri- The object of the first amendment is to bution to beneficiaries or next of kin save expense where small estates are con- normally occurs after the administrator cerned. or where the value of the land to has assumed the character of trustee, and be dealt with is low. Section 18 of the these persons should have the protection principal Act provides that no real estate of the sureties to the administrator's of which administration has been granted bond. The need for this was brought to shall be leased for longer than three mind forcibly by a decision in the Supreme years, or sold or mortgaged, unless all Court this year, as Well as by another beneficiaries to the estate give their writ- recent decision in New South Wales. The ten consent, or the court makes an order. Bill, therefore, seeks to rectify the posi- The Chief Justice has recommended that tion by requiring that the sureties to the [21 September, 1954.1 1713 bond are entered into in respect to the Act. The Chief Justice has advised that distribution as well as to the collecting, this amendment is necessary to enable the getting in. and administering of the form of administration bond to be safely estate. altered, as provided for in a previous At present, the Supreme Court is em- proposal in the Bill. powered by the principal Act, upon the application of an interested party, to re- The last amendment seeks to give the voke any administration, or to require judges the authority to delegate to the the administrator to enter into a new or waster of the court, by rule of court, the an additional bond. The Bill proposes authority to deal with applications for that as well as taking such action on the grants of administration for estates where application of an interested party, the the gross value as sworn for death duty court purposes does not exceed £5,000. At pres- may do so on the report of the ent, the master's jurisdiction extends Master of the Supreme Court. only to estates of a value of E1,000 While the amounts of an administrator's or less. This maximum was set bond and sureties should be based on the in 1903, and is completely out of value placed on the estate by the Com- line with modern money values. missioner of Stamps, in practice it fre- The proposal, if agreed to, will relieve the quently occurs that a grant of adminis- judges of the burden of dealing with many tration is made on a bond, and sureties comparatively small estates. assessed on the value of the estate as sworn for duty purposes by the adminis- I think I have explained quite thoroughly trator. The grant of administration is the reasons for the proposed amendments. then issued, following the payment of duty If any further information is desired, I will tentatively assessed on the same be only too happy to obtain it. As I have basis. said, each amendment has been recom- Subsequently, after investigation, when mended by the Chief Justice. They are an estate is finally assessed for duty pur- also considered advisable by the Solicitor Poses at its true value, it is sometimes General and the Master of the Supreme found that this value is considerably Court. I move- higher than that sworn to by the adminis- That the Bill be now read a second trator. In such cases it then becomes time. necessary to increase the amounts of the administrator's bond and sureties. Un- On motion by Hon. H. K. Watson, debate fortunately, the greatest difficulty is some- adjourned. times encountered in inducing the admin- istrator to provide the necessary addi- BILL-CROWN SUITS ACT tional security. Such a circumstance would AMENDMENT. be overcome by the amendment in the Second Reading. Bill, which would enable the Supreme Court, on the motion of the master of the Debate resumed from the 16th Septem- court, to order extra security, or. if neces- ber. sary, to revoke the grant of administra- tion if the additional security is not forth- THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. 0. coming. Praser-West-in reply) (4.541: 1 am The object of the next amendment is to pleased to note that this small Bill ap- clarify the power of the Supreme Court pears to have met with the approbation of to alter the rules and forms which are re- all members, which is understandable, as ferred to in tbe Third Schedule to the the Bill seeks to liberalise the rights of principal Act and in the appendix to the citizens to sue the Crown. Mr. Watson was Third Schedule. While Section 144 (1) not quite clear as to the intention of Clause of the principal Act states that these 6. He asked whether it was meant that if rules and forms may he altered, added the Attorney General or the Minister for to, or rescinded under the power given Justice refused an applicant the right to to the Judges by Section 167 (1) of the take action against the Crown, after a Supreme Court Act to make rules of court, period of up to six years after the cause it is considered that a doubt exists as to of action had taken place, the applicant the judges' power so far as the rules and could then apply to the Court for Permis- forms referred to in the principal Act sion. The intention of the provision is to are concerned. save any applicant expense and time by applying to the Minister in preference to The Hill seeks to remove this doubt by the court. If the Minister refuses the repealing and re-enacting the present pro- claim the applicant may then appeal to the vision so as to give the judges the autho- court. If he would rather apply to the rity to make and Prescribe all such rules court first he would be at liberty to do so and forms as may be necessary or con- venient to carry out the objects of the The hon. member also inquired as to the Act. This will include the specific power general nature of actions against the to alter, add to, or repeal any of the Crown. I am told that these usually relate rules or forms which are detailed in the to such things as dismissal under contract -appendix to the Third Schedule of the or for breaches of agreements by State 1714 1714[COUNCIL.] instrumentalities whose statutory powers vehicle, the whole motoring world would stemn from their own Acts. While I have know that the sign stood for an overwidth no actual figures, I understand there have vehicle. not been many cases. However, even if I do not say that that idea exactly should they were rare, the proposals in the Bill are be accepted, but something of the sort warranted. As members will appreciate, is needed, because once motorists the rapid industrial expansion of the State recognised the sign, they would know the has resulted in the Government entering difficulties confronting them. Whilst the into a number of agreements, and the other mere granting of a permit might not do parties to these agreements are entitled to much in the direction of lessening traffic the protection afforded in the Hill. hazards, a sign known by everybody and Question put and passed. recognised as indicating the approach of an overwith vehicle might be helpful. Bill read a second time. HON. F, R. H. LAVERY (West) (5.21: In Committee. The amendment in the Hill deals with the Bill passed through Committee without transporting of farm machinery, and I can debate, reported without amendment and claim to know a little of the habits of the report adopted. farmers when transporting such machinery along highways and across roads to get DILL-TRAFFIC ACT AMENDMENT from one paddock to another. I agree with (No. 1). Dr. Hislop that some standard sign should be adopted In the not distant future inas- Second Reading. much as a good deal of this machinery is being made of greater widths. I believe Debate resumed from the 16th Septem- that ploughs and harvesters are about 24ft. ber. wide, and it is machines of this type that HON. J. G. HISLOP (Metropolitan) have to be transported by farmers. [4.581: 1 have given thought to the mov- Last year. when an amendment was be- ing of agricultural machinery, and I notice ing moved by the Chief Secretary, I that an amendment has been placed on the directed the attention of members of the notice paper suggesting that it be carried Country Party to the fact that it referred out between the hours of sunrise and sun- to farm machinery. I had in mind the set. The hour before sunset can be a thought that the farmer could suffer a very difficult one, probably the most diffi- disability if the provision did not prove cult time of the day in which to move to be workable. An amendment on the agricultural machinery. notice paper proposes a limitation of the Hon. L. Craig: It is very bard indeed hours to those between sunrise and sun- to determine when it is sunrise and sun- set. This I consider is a good one, but set. I support Dr. Hislop in his suggestion to require signs to be carried in view of the Hon. J. G. HISLOP: Recently, just at new types of machine that are coming sunset, when travelling on the road to forward almost every day. Mullewa, we came across an overwidth vehicle. It was very difficult to see be- While I support the farmers. I admit cause the setting sun was shining right that there are some who do not play the into our eyes, and we could not determine game. On the Thursday before Good the exact position of the vehicle. I sug- Friday, I was travelling south to Albany gested to the mover of this Bill that pro- via Kojonup. At the 176-mile turn-off. vision should be made to restrict the one leaves the Albany Highway at right movement of agricultural machinery to angles and proceeds to Tambellup. In certain hours. On a similar journey, pre- one of the dry creeks, I noticed that some viously, we were travelling round a bend, of the guide posts had been put there and we were suddenly faced with two on- by the road board, A farmer with a new coming vehicles, one not very far behind machine too wide to pass at that spot had the other, and each being towed. They cut off the guide posts low down, and were probably being towed on too long a even five weeks later, only the stumps of line, because they were swinging very badly those posts remained. That farmer was behind the front towing-vehicle. As we not playing the game, because others driv- rounded a bend in the road, it was quite ing in the dark would look for the guide difficult to pass the vehicle. posts and thus would be faced with a further hazard. I trust that considera- When other speakers were addressing tion will be given to the suggestion that a the House, I thought it might be a good standard sign be adopted for overwidth idea if overwidth vehicles carried a sign vehicles. which would become as well known as a railway crossing or some of the other signs HON. SIR CHARLES LATHAM (Cen- that vehicles have to carry. It would have tral) [5.6]: The interest that has been to be cheap and it would have to be effec- created by the amendment contained in Mr. Jones's Hill is really tive. I suggest a circle Painted, say, white, surprising. For with a "W" in the centre painted red. years and years overwldth vehicles and If that were fixed high on the towing implements have been used on the roads, [21 September. 1954.1 1715 and I venture to suggest that not one ac- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The cident has occurred to which any member Commissioner of Police might have thought can refer. it would apply to agricultural machines, Hon. N. E. Baxter: I know of one. but probably did not give any considera- tion to its covering a harvester or a plough. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I do not The Chief Secretary: Why should such know of any, and probably I have travelled implements be exempt? in the agricultural areas and in the South- West as much as any member of this Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I do not House. We have to remember that these say they should be exempt. At the same vehicles are slow-moving, which gives time, there is no need for the worry and vastly more protection than does a motor- disturbance that have been caused. I car travelling at 60 or 70 miles an hour, doubt whether there has ever been one such as I have noticed at times. accident with an agricultural machine on a road. As I said before, they are slow- Hon. R. J. Boylen: They hold up the moving, and as long as the person in traffic sometimes. charge of an approaching vehicle exer- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: No, they cises common sense, he knows what to do not. Unless a driver is near-sighted, expect. he can see one of these vehicles approach- The Chief Secretary: How would he get ing from a long distance, though if he on if he met it rounding a corner? were travelling at 70 miles an hour, It H-on. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Does the would be a different matter. I was in a Minister suggest that these corners carry car that came from Kalgoorlie on one heavy timber and that one cannot see occasion- what is approaching? I know of some Ron. R.. J. Boylen: I was In one that dangerous corners-there is one this side turned over. of Dardanup. But if a driver is cautious, he can see that the road takes a sharp Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The hon. turn to the left; and it is not a main member was travelling to Kalgoorlie, and road, though it is used by a great deal that happened on a country road. No of traffic going to Donnybrook. matter what we do. it is impossible to No matter what we do, we cannot pre- Prevent accidents happening. vent accidents, and I cannot see that there Hon. R. J. Boylen: We can do something is need for all the worry about this matter. to minimise them. A person owning an overwidth machine is responsible for any accident on the road. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: The Will the Minister agree with that? main roads are quite wide enough to give The Chief Secretary: That applies to all the protection that is necessary. There every is no great need for all this worry about vehicle on the road. what might happen. Probably the greatest Mon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: No,, it trouble for an inexperienced driver is to dues not. One may insure against most meet a mob of sheep on the road. I have~ risks, but I do not think a farmer would seen a driver run his car at 30 miles an insure if he were simply going to take a hour right up to a mob of sheep, think- machine on the road occasionally. If a ing they would disperse, whereas anybody farmer were transporting one of the with a knowledge of sheep would realise Ploughs of which Mr. Lavery spoke over that he had to slow down. I have got out a distance of 20 or 30 miles, he would of a car and walked ahead in order to get not drag it along a road but would put it a mob of sheep off the road. That is a on a truck. It would be Placed lengthwise far greater danger than any farm im- on the truck, and so would not occasion plement would be. any worry. Where a farmer has a pro- perty on both sides of the road and is When the regulation was introduced,* it under the was not intended to apply to agricultural necessity of taking his machines machinery. across the road, he will have his gates op- It was intended to apply to posite, if at all Possible, for his own con.- overwidth vehicles, such as traverse the venience. roads at times, and are branded "over- width," and sometimes have a vehicle Thus, we do a lot of talking without travelling ahead and a red flag displayed giving the matter real consideration. There in front and behind. is no justification for the objections that have been raised; and, in saying that, I The Chief Secretary: Why do you say think I can claim to know as much about the law should apply to everything other the subject as do most members. I admit than agricultural implements? that driving at sunrise or sunset is worry- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I did not ing, and Probably many of the accidents say that, but it is usually applied to them. that occur are the result of drivers being The regulation was not intended to apply blinded by the sun. Sometimes an ac- particularly to agricultural machinery. cident occurs through a driver being blinded by the glaring lights of an on- Hon. H. X. Watson: No, it was to over- coming car. We cannot legislate to pre- width vehicles. vent accidents; the most we can hope to 1716 1716[COUNCIL.] do is to minimise them, and one of the BILL-STATE ELECTRICITY best means to that end that I know of COMMSSION ACT would be to start with the schools and AMENDMENT. educate the children. Second Reading. I hope that the House will be reasonable in dealing with this matter. I do not Debate resumed from the 16th Septem- think there is any need for the amend- ber. ments on the notice paper. I should like HON. H. HEARN (Metropolitan) [5.17]: to meet the farmer who would attempt Since to move an overwldth vehicle along a road we last met. I have had a good look after dark or in the early hours of the at the Hill. and I heartily commend it to morning the House. I think the formula laid down. unless the distance to be traversed under which there is an appointment was very short. He would have enough from Trades Hall, is good from the Min- sense to realise that he would be respon- ister's Point of view; and we who have sible for any accident that might occur, something to do with industry are glad and he would also appreciate the danger to know that the Government intends to to himself as well as to his vehicle. appoint a person to represent industry on The Chief Secretary: You know that a the State Electricity Commission. It is a number of accidents are caused because measure that receives our full commenda- people do not think. tion, and I shall vote for the second Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: A lot of reading. People talk because they do not think. Question put and passed. too. If they did think, there would be a Hill read a second time. lot less talk. I do not believe we need to worry about all these imaginary things In Committee. that may happen. I feel sure that people Bill passed through Committee without will take a commonsense view of this mat- debate, reported without amendment and ter, and I believe that this measure will meet the requirements of the community; the report adopted. if it does not, we can amend it. I think BILL-HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT I can stand up and say confidently that there will not be an accident, because of (No. 1). this Bill, within the next 12 months. On Second Reading. the other hand, there may be. Debate resumed from The Chief Secretary: You would be the 15th Septem- right there. You are pretty game to say ber. it. HON. SIR CHARLES LATHAM (Cen- Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I would tral) [5.21]: This is one Bill upon which be game to back the statement, but I will I shall make only a short speech. I know not. Year after year I have seen vehicles the Minister would like me to make a long being pulled along narrow l6ft. Gin, roads. speech about it; but I do not intend to do so, because it Provides for only minor The Chief Secretary: Are not some of amendments to the Act. However, I think these vehicles about 1Sf t. wide? members should have a careful look at Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I should one or two of them. One of the provisions say that some of them would be 12 to l4ft. in the Bill concerns a subject about which I do not think there would be any of them I know very little; and I hope that Dr. over l4ft. in width, Hislop, will give us some further informa- The Chief Secretary: That would be tion on it, because he has only whetted our handy on a loft, wide road. appetites in this respect. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: It would The trouble with a number of measures be just able to travel along such a road. such as this is that the local authorities These loft. Oin. roads are not main roads; are uncertain as to how long they will have they are feeder roads that carry little the power to do certain things. Not long traffic. The local authorities are making ago we passed amendments to this Act. most of their roads wider than that, and and now we are amending those amend- in many cases they have removed the ments. It would be better if the timber along the sides. That timber used local authorities could get together and to give protection to the road itself; but decide what they really want. I hope that unfortunately, in many cases, it has been when the Local Government Hill comes removed. Nowadays the narrowest roads before us, members will give careful con- are about 161 t.. but quite a lot of them are sideration to it so that those who are two chains wide. I hope the House will governed by that legislation will have some agree to the Hill. I have a fair knowledge knowledge of what is ahead of them. I of the subject, and I do not think we will have no objection to this Hill at the pres- have to worry about our having agreed ent stage. to this measure. HON. E. M. DAVIES (West) [5.23]: I On motion by Hon. C. H. Henning, de- intend to support the Bill; but there is bate adjourned. one portion of it that I do not favour. [21 September. 1954.] 1717

I commend the Government for intro- of people took advantage of it to de- ducing the measure, which deals with posit their junk and garbage. We feel various matters of great importance. The that this is one way of encouraging the question of the disposal of rubbish from people to utilise an area which can be premises is one 'that has caused local directly controlled by the local authority. authorities a good deal of anxiety at times; There is one provision in the Bill deal- because there are some people, notwith- ing with catering for the travelling pub- standing the fact that local authorities lic by the creation of facilities for ob- make provision for a weekly removal of taining refreshments at garages. While a certain amount of garbage, who will some opposition has been raised to this collect a lot of junk in their yards, and idea, I believe it will be of great advantage then eventually decide to dispose of it. to the travelling public; and if the local As a rule, the people concerned remove authorities concerned bring down by-laws it to some area as near as possible to their to control the types of buildings used for own particular residences, and as far away this purpose, the idea should find a good as to ensure that it will not be a nuisance deal of favour. It will be necessary for the to them. local authorities to frame regulations to They usually choose vacant land or a control the types of buildings and the faci- municipal reserve for the purpose. Where lities used; such by-laws could be known local authorities have endowment land, as dining-room or tea-room by-laws, or people take the opportunity to deposit their by some such appropriate term. junk there, because, as a rule, these areas There are a number of other provisions are surrounded by trees. While the junk in the Hill with which I do not propose to) is not visible to the people travelling along deal, because I believe they have been adjacent roads, it causes a nuisance to the considered by those who have the requi- local authorities concerned. The amend- site knowledge to draft the necessary ment in the Bill to enable the control of legislation. However, there is one Part of this unlawful depositing of rubbish, at the Bill with which I do not agree; places other than those set aside by the and I shall be glad to learn during local authority, is one that should be given the course of the debate why this a good deal of consideration. particular provision has been inserted. I Hon. N. E. Baxter: That aspect is al- refer to the clause which proposes to dele- ready covered in the principal Act. gate the power of a local authority to an inspector. From what I can see, the Hon. E. M. DAVIES: I admit that the reason is that there are some local auth- principal Act does cover it to a certain orities who do not meet at frequent inter- extent; but I understand, from the clauses vals; and in the meantime, offences may in the Bill, that permission should be be committed. It is said that the health obtained from the local authorities. That inspector has not the authority to deal is not always done. If permission were with these breaches of the Health Act. obtained from the local authority, it would From the experience I have had, I do be able to issue instructions as to where not think there is any reason for that pro- the garbage or junk would be deposited. I vision at all. I believe that if there are agree that some People are inconvenienced breaches of the Health Act, and the because some garbage tips are closed dur- inspector reports them to the local auth- ing the week-end. While it may be an ority concerned, there is no reason why inconvenience, these local authorities close the local authority cannot deal with the their tips during the week-end because matter, even assuming it is necessary to most people do not deposit their garbage call a special meeting to do so. Accord- in the places set aside for that purpose. ingly, I am not prepared to delegate the When they take their garbage to the tip, powers of a local authority to an inspector. people usually deposit it just inside the gates; and, as a result, it becomes necessary I believe that those who constitute the for the local authority to have a general personnel of a local authority are the clean-up from time to time. people elected by the ratepayers and the ratepayers must receive some considera- Another reason for the closure of the tion. I do not say that, generally speak- tips at the week-end is that some people Ing, health inspectors deliberately look for will scrounge through the rubbish looking breaches of the Act with a view to penalis- for things that may be of some use. I ing ratepayers; but with them, as with all believe that in the interests of people sections of the community, there may be generally, and in order to preserve the some who, when they are given a little health of the community, this practice power, use it to the extreme. should be stopped. The only way to do The duty of the health inspector is to that is to have somebody in control of make an inspection and to report to the the tips at the week-ends, or to close local authority. It is for the local auth- them altogether over that period. The ority to take the necessary action, and it Fremantle City Council has now agreed to is responsible to the ratepayers for the advertise periodically when the tip will actions that are taken. The health be open at the week-end. Recently the tip inspector has sufficient power to deal with was opened over this period, and a number certain breaches of the Act, and I cannot. 1718 1718[COUINCIL.] see the force of delegating the powers of his premises. At present, people may have the local authority to the health inspector. a utility or a trailer and be able to under- If other sections of the Act are being con- take this job without much diffculty; but travened, then the health inspector should now it is proposed to tax them. report the matter to the local authority in the district concerned for necessary action. As an example, we may consider the position over the Easter holidays. A per- Reference was made by Dr. Hislop to the son may decide that he would like to clean tact-and I hope I quote him correctly- up his yard. only to find he has no permit that if the health inspector decided to take to do so. The same thing would, of course, certain action, the local authority would apply over the Christmas holidays; and he know about it, and would probably disci- would find himself hampered. I think we pline the inspector. I cannot take that should leave it open and permit the house- as gospel truth because, having been asso- holder to use his own vehicle in the re- ciated with local authorities for a number moval of his extra rubbish. People are of Years, I know that health inspectors do paying enough already; and if we permit serve orders on local authorities as on the them to use their own vehicles, it will help general public. To say that local auth- to keep their yards clean. Members have orities can take steps to discipline the remarked that it would result in their health inspector, would not, I think, be dumping their excess rubbish somewhere right; because, under the Health Act, no else. That would, of course, happen; but local authority can dismiss a medical even if people have to obtain permits, it officer, an analyst, or a health inspector will not be stopped. If the fact that the without the consent of the Public Health tip is open is advertised, people will use Commissioner. Accordingly, the health it at the times most convenient to them. inspector is fully covered. Health Inspectors were mentioned by Dr. I feel the Bill will make for improve- Hislop; and Mr. Davies commented on the ment, because it wfll ensure that the health remarks he made. I would like to remind of a district is kept up to the standard the hon. member that the sort of thing re- which I am sure the majority of people ferred to by Dr. Hislop does take place, desire. Because of that I intend to sup- particularly where the secretary of a board port the second reading. carries out the duties of health inspector and traffic inspector, and does everything BON. G. BENNETTS (South-East) else. I know of one member of a local [5.351: There is one clause in the Bill governing body who had a certain amount which I do not feel disposed to support. of authority, and who was breaking the It concerns the removal of rubbish, etc., law plenty. I will never forget that on one from premises, and refers to an applica- occasion the Governor was present, and tion having to be made to the council to this man mentioned how he did it. I must obtain a permit to remove the rubbish. I be very careful what I say! The result am Pretty well acquainted with the Health was that an independent health inspector Act and the Acts relating to municipal was sent from the city. This inspector authorities. I have had 18 years on dif- canvassed the district, and insisted that ferent committees in connection with those certain provisions be complied with. Acts; and, in all the districts I know of, they worked very well. On the Goldfields Hon. A. F. Griffith: Tell us where It was. there is a monthly charge for the removal Hon. G. E3ENNETTS: I must be careful. of sanitary rubbish, etc. A rubbish bin I do not know whether this was the case is provided and paid for by the house- to which Dr. Hislop referred. Health in- holder, and in my particular case the rub- spectors have wide powers. bish is removed from that bin every Wed- nesday. Hon. C. W. D. Barker: And so they should. As members will appreciate, there is a certain amount of rubbish that accumu- Hon. 0. BENNETTS: I agree. They lates in one's yard;, and, if a restriction have certainly done a good job in the dis- is to be placed on the householder,' then trict in which I1 live. There were many that rubbish will continue to accumulate: places where the bath water was running and before long it will be difficult to remove out into the yards, and causing a good deal it at all. To my way of thinking, people of odour. That sort of thing is unhealthy are entitled to dump their surplus rubbish for children. A check was made; and I on the rubbish tip. I follow that practice was very pleased to see that two houses myself when I dump my lawn cuttings and on one side of me, and one on the other, hedge clippings. It is much more con- were served with notices, and dry wells venient for one to have the rubbish tip have accordingly been installed in those open all the time. If that is not to be the places. case, then some clever Alec will approach Hon. Sir Charles Latham: They must the local governing body and obtain the have water for dry wells. granting of a contract-allowing the local governing body so much per load-and Hon. G. BEIWNETTS: That is not so. will charge the householder exorbitant The water that is wasted goes into the rates for removing the extra rubbish from dry wells. Hot dog stalls, provided for the 121 September, 1954.1 travelling public, were also mentioned. firms despatching groceries to rcers' While they are a great asset, they can be shops always amazed me, Stacks of rotten a menace to health if the rubbish is not bags and hundreds of milk bottles that had deposited in proper vessels. I support the never been collected by the milk depots Bill, with the few reservations I have men- were to be seen lying on the ground, and bionedi. the number would have to be seen to be believed. The Bill provides for certain HON. J. D. TEAHAN (North-East) action with regard to the disposal of rub- (SA41: My own views coincide with those bish, but there is a great lack of provision&- expressed by Mr. Bennetts. There is a to ensure the good health of the com- provision in the Bill which states that munity. one shall not remove rubbish without a special permit, and when one has obtained Hon. N. E. Baxter: There is laxity on the.- the permit, a fee will be paid for the Part of the health inspectors. privilege. My experience with local govern- ing bodies indicates that the present set-up Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: There is very is perfectly satisfactory. Under it, one bad management-as in other cases I have might remove any surplus rubbish mentioned in the Past-from the top down. or refuse one-self without the pay- I make no apologies to anyone for saying ment of any fee. As Mr. Bennetts that, because I regard the health of the has stated, it would be irksome to State as being Paramount. We find owners the local governing bodies to have of eating houses being Proceeded against to issue permits, particularly when their for having dirty kitchens; but if members staffs are generally limited. It would also saw the condition of the Places from which be irksome to the person who made appli- food is despatched, they would be aston- cation and who might be refused. ished. Some of the master butchers have a bin into which they throw their waste;, Hon. J. 0. Hislop: They would not re- and at certain times each day, men collect move the excess rubbish. it and take it to the blood-and-bone mills. Ron. J. D. TEAHAN: They have been But members would be astonished if they doing that. Mr. Bennetts said that the could see the flies which congregate at same thing had occurred at Kalgoorlie. those establishments, particularly at this Three or four months ago a resolution was time of the year, at the change of season. passed at Boulder that nq further surplus I am certain that the Bill does not go far rubbish be removed. The removal of this enough in connection with matters such rubbish was occupying so much of the time as that. of the limited staff that road work could not be proceeded with. Our edict was that Hon. E_ M. Davies: The Health Act people should remove the rubbish them- deals with such things. selves, or pay a carrier to do it. Plenty Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: Probably. But of them desire to remove it themselves to it has never been enforced. One or two the right place;, but if they have to go to speakers have mentioned the Provision re- the bother of getting a permit when the lating to the prescribing by a local auth- office is busy, they 'will probably not do so, ority of a fee for the disposal of rubbish. but will dump the rubbish elsewhere than This is a matter that aff ects the oil in- at a tip in order not to be hauled up dustry. There is a certain amount of before the courts for not having had a waste by way of residual oils. They are permit. My experience leads me to the of no use for industrial Purposes; and, belief that it would be better for the Act because of that, the oil companies refuse to to be left alone in this respect, and I intend Pay import duty on them. In their own to oppose that portion of the measure. time, the customs authorities order this waste to be taken to the rubbish tips and HOlN. F. R. H. LAVERY (West) [5.463: burnt. 1 agree with one or two other speakers that, while the Government is to be com- That may be done on a Saturday or a mended for having brought dawn this Bill, Sunday, when the tip has to be opened the measure is lacking in so far as the for the Purpose and the controller paid for health of this city is concerned. If we his day's work. At North Fremantle, all stipulate what rubbish is to go to a tip the oil companies use the one tip. Before and what is not, I consider that there will doing so, they notify the North Fremantle be a full-time job for a couple of men in Council that they will be carting to the Perth alone to go around to the backs of tip a load of inflammable waste; and the warehouses and factories for the collection council gives them authority to do so, the of waste material. The amount that Is to man in charge at the depot specifying the be seen lying at the rear of the premises Spot at which the waste is to be deposited. of motoring firms In Hay-st. alone would Again, when vessels Call at Fremantle, astound an insurance assessor. I know there is a type of wood in which wasps are what I am talking about; I am not just to be found; and immediately the ship is guessing. unloaded, and all the scantlinig has been For a long time I was connected with taken off, the waste wood is sent to the motor transport, and what I saw when I North Fremantle or the Fremantle rubbish went to the rear of premises occupied by tip to be burned. All this results in an 1720 1720[COtNCIL.l

added cost to the Iteepets Cf the depots, DILL-PRI[CES CONTROL. and it is only right that some charge Second Reading. should be made. However, I do not think that any member need be very worried, Debate resumed from the 16th Sep- about smaller municipalities or road boards tember. ,being affected by this provision. EON. G. DENNETTS (South-East) -'Hon. N. E. Baxter: Did you compare [5.56]: I thought we would never have this Bill with the principal Act? price control in this State again, but tc my surprise a Bill to bring about control Hon. F. R. H. LAXfltY; I confess I has once more been introduced. It is a have not read the principal Act. shock to me to realise that the people I Hon. N. E. Baxter: Have a look at both. represent-the consumers-- Hon. H. Hearn: Do you not represent Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: The question others? bas been raised as to whether the State should pay for foodstuffs or drugs that are Hon. Gi. BEN'NETTS: -have had to suf- confiscated because they have to be de- fer aLloss of income of 19s. ld, through stroyed on account of having deteriorated. the refusal of the Arbitration Court to grant It is beyond my comprehension why any an increase in the basic wage in accord- particular firm or shopkeeper obtaining anee with the rise in the cost of living. goods which are not known by them to be People feel that this has gone far enough, They have been prepared to give the harmful, and which have to be confiscated. pegging of the basic wage a trial for 12 should be required to pay the cost months, with a view to seeing if prices Hon. Sir Charles Latham: It would not would fall into line. But if it is good be so bad if it were one man, but it is quite enough to peg the basic wage, it is equally a different matter when they are scattered appropriate to peg prices. throughout the State. Hon. C. H. Henning: Has the increase on the Goldfields been l9s. I1d.? Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: If such goods 'are dangerous--as was the case with the Hon. G. BENNflTS: Yes; the figure ,coconut which had to be destroyed-does would be about the same. not the health of the nation come before Hon. Sir Charles Latham: It is not. the matter of costs? The person who im- Hon. G. BENNSITS: I have heard ~ports such commodities may have some members quote differences in the prices -knowledge of the fact that they are not of household goods, and I have brought -of the best, but the retailer would not along figures from dockets for goods pur- necessarily have that knowledge. chased on the G~oldfields. I will admit that rents have not Jumped in that area A few weeks ago, the firm of Robert in the same proportion as they have down -Harper & Co. Ltd.. in Frenmantle, received a here. ,quantity of rice from the Eastern States. I bought some of that rice from my local Hion. A. F. Griffith: If rents have not 'storekeeper and put it in a container. When increased, why do you claim that the the container was subsequently opened, the figure of 19s. lid, applies in Kalgoorie the :rice smelt like iodine. The shopkeeper same as down here? rang the firm, which had to call in 79 Hon. G. BENNIETTS: Because there bags of rice that had been contaminated have been other increases in prices. I -on the ship which had brought it to Pre- propose to give some figures covering the mantle. I do not consider that the shop- years 1952, 1953, and 1954. The list I keeper who received some of that rice have compiled is as follows:- should have to pay for the confiscation, 1.952 1953 1954 and I feel that the firm of Robert Harper & 5. d. s. d. s. d. ,Co. Ltd., should not be held responsible. I Apricot !am 3 1 3 9 34 101 consider that the people on the ship were Sunshine M~ilk (small) 2 113 3 63 3 8 & Nestles milk .. 11 6 12 9 12 9 responsible f or not looking after the food- Vevet soap 2 3 2 5 2 51 stuff committed to their care. Tea . .. , 4 2 4 10 4 10 Baiter 3 4 4 4 4 4 Hon, Sir Charles Latham: A legal claim Sugar, duz. 7 6 9310 10 0 Eggs ... 5 2 5 3 6 0 would be possible. But that is not easy Sunshine milk (19e) so 8 13 13 13 4 when the commodity is spread all over Signal soap 2 2 29q 3 0 the State. J Blue I111 1 11 111j 2 Persil 3 3 3 5 5 11 Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: I still say that 5 Starch (small) 2 7 2 6 2 73 sella sauce ... 3 5 2 10 3 54 it is the responsibility of the State to cover 21b. Rice biscu Its .... 2 11 - 4 9 'the cost of any confiscation of impure 2 S.R. Flour .... 1 5 - 1 10 food, just as it provides compensation in 7 lbs. Sit. Flour I..- 4 i0j 5 2 5 81 ,connection with swine fever in pigs. With H-on. Sir Charles Latham: Why do you those reservations, I support the Bill. not buy local sauce instead of Rosefla? On motion by Hon. H. Hearn, debate Hon. G. BENNqETTS: We could; but we adjourned. do not. 121 September, 1954.] 1721

Hon. N. E. Baxter: Do you buy rice almost every house one entered; and cer- biscuits every day? tainly in one's own house. People were beginning to express a degree of alarm for Hon. 0. BENNETTS: We buy them every the future of the economy of Australia week. We buy all sorts of biscuits for the when based on such a principle. Certainly grandchildren. These items which are since the cessation of these rises, it has used daily in the house have increased in not become the matter of conversation Price. I do not know what has occurred that it was previously. Some degree of, in the metropolitan area, except that I stability has been reached. did notice last week that satsuma plum Jam in the metropolitan area was Is. 6id. True, it is known that in this particular, a tin. In Kalgoorlie, ordinary plum jam State, because of the rise in rents and the: this week was marked at 2s. lid. So, we cost of meat, a figure of about £1 has been' are paying a little more on the Goldfields declared; and for this reason an automatic: than are the people here. increase of this amount-or ain amount of: Eon. A. r. Griffith: What do you mean 13s. 9dc., which has other factors to comf- by ordinary plum jam? mend it, apparently-has been suggested as being due to the worker. That might Hon. G. BENNE'rrS: It is plum jam: sound as though the answer would lie in no special brand. I know that people do giving this rise: but the moment that the not want an increase in the basic wage; court granted it, there would be an auto- they want it to be stabilised. They are pre- matic rise in costs. pared to have their wages pegged, pro- vided the cost of living is pegged; but we It would not be the proper thing to do cannot continue as we are going. Many for the economy of Australia, or for the public companies are making big profits. future of the worker, to return to such a The figures in relation to a couple of them system. Those of us who saw inflation in have recently been published in the Press. Europe after the 1914-18 war hoped we McLean Bros. & Rlgg, a firm that sup- would never see it here: and those of us plies many household goods,' has made who travelled through Germany when large profits; and so has a furniture fac- Germany was printing money as hard as tory. All this is very disturbing to the it could to cope 'with inflation, saw all workers, who are hostile to these big the dreadful conditions that arose as the profits. They are faced with having their result. It can be said that in a large wages pegged, whilst these other people degree the inflation gave rise to Hitler, get away with it! because of the foreign element that came in and purchased, for almost nothing. On motion by Hon. H. Hearn, debate properties within Germany itself. The adjourned. answer to it, of course, was the issuing of a new currency. Once inflation of that BILL-INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION type commences, there does not seem any ACT AMENDMENT. way of stopping it, except by an altera- Second Reading. tion in the actual currency. Debate resumed from the 14th Septem- I cannot myself see any means of stop- ping the inflationary spiral by passing this ber. measure, and saying to the Arbitration HON. J. G. HISLOP (Metropolitan Court, "You must follow the figures of the [6.5]: I do not believe that the real statistician, no matter what happens. solution to the problem of the wage Whether it is good for the country or worker of Australia lies in issuing an whether the country can pay it or cannot, order to the Arbitration Court to adjust you must follow his figures.' My own feel- automatically the quarterly rises or falls ing is that we are facing, possibly, the according to the statistician's findings. I last basic wage as we know it. I feel do not think there is anyone in Australia certain that somebody-possibly the Com- who is not displaying some degree of monwealth Government itself-will be anxiety in regard to the wages situation. called upon to do as the court suggests, If it were thought that to give automati- and request the court to declare a new cally the rises as they occur in the statis- basic wage on different standards. tician's figures was the solution to our problem, then I do not think anyone A very interesting document, published would express further anxiety; but for with the authority of the archbishops and those who have studied this problem at all, bishops of the Catholic Church of Austra- there must be room for anxiety, because lia, reached me during the week-end. it the granting of such increases could only contains a suggestion which has a lot of lead to one thing-further inflation. No merit. The suggestion is based mainly on matter how much it might be protested the fact that the family man, because of that wages can rise without costs rising. I the rising costs in Australia, and the rising do not believe it is true. basic wage, is suffering badly as compared to the single man. It is proposed that Before the cessation of these quarterly there should be a wage for the single man; rises, the future of the basic wage was and that the family man should be paid becoming a matter of conversation in more, according to his family's needs. 1722 1722[COUNCL.]

- 'The thief Secretary: That could result basic wage as we know it. I shid. in Addbi -in a. lot of men always remaining single. tion, that there was considerable anxiety in a number of families at the wages be- Hon. J. G. HISLOP: It has much to com- ing paid to the adolescent, in comparison :mend it, but I admit that there are dif - with the wages received by the bead of the -ficulties associated with it. One point family. We are all aware that a lot of

Persona who did not comply up to that date The idea of the proviso is to prevent from have since completed a further two years' applying, persons who have not already practising up to the date of the first regis- been refused registration tration by the board-namely, the 16th Ron. J. G. Hislop: Did the two people January, 1953. mentioned apply previously? I wish to quote two cases in particular. Hon. F. R,. H. LAVIERY: They did. Firstly, one person had two years 11 months' practice before arriving in Western Hon. H. K. Watson: They applied and Australia in June, 1949, and has practised were refused registration because they did continuously since, or for five years in this not comply with the three-year period? State. Secondly, another person had two Hon. F. it. H. LAVERY: They applied, years 10 months' practice before arriving but they were refused because they did not in this State, and he continued in practice comply with the residential qualifications. in the employ of a registered physio- In the drafting of the Bill, one or two words therapist. Later he purchased his em- may be out of order; but during the Com- ployer's business, and had to close down mittee stage, amendments may be made to only when pressure was put on him to do so correct that. This is, the first time I have by the board in July, 1954. He had con- introduced a Bill in this House. I hope tinued in practice or in employment in the that I shall receive the support of members. State for three years and eight months. I move- I have quoted only two examples to prove That the Bill be now read a second my point and the necessity for this small time. amendment. The Chief Secretary: Was the first man On motion by Hon. J. G. Hislop, debate you mentioned practising privately, or was adjourned. he in employment? BILL-JURY ACT AMENDMENT. Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: He has been employed by the Royal Perth Hospital at Assembly's Message. the Infectious Branch, Subiaco, for almost Message from the Assembly notifying five years. that it had agreed to amendment No. 3, Under the proviso In Clause 2 the desires and had disagreed to amendments Nos. 1 of Parliament, as expressed in the parent and 2 now considered. Act, will be given effect-namely, the In Committee. Public will receive protection from unauth- orised or unqualified persons who may be Hon. W. R. Hall in the Chair; the Chief tempted to impose on them. Secretary in charge of the Bill. Section 10 of the parent Act provides. No. 1.. Clause 4, page 2-Delete the words firstly, for the registration of those who 'twenty-one" in line 18 and substitute the have qualified and received diplomas; and, word "thirty". Secondly, for those who have practised in The CHAIRMAN: The Assembly's this State for at least two years prior to the reason for disagreeing is- Act coming into force on the 15th January, 1951. The-Bill proposes a new para., which There is no reason why the age limit reads- for women should be different to that provided by the Act in respect to men. (c) he establishes to the satisfaction of It is advisable that in this respect the Board that he is competent in there should be consistency in respect the practice of physiotherapy and of both sexes. was barns fide engaged in such practice- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I move-- (I) at a place or places out- That the amendment be not insisted side the State for a period on. of not less than two years I do so confidently, because the reason prior to the commence- advanced by the Assembly is very sound. ment of this Act; and The same reason was advanced here: but, (ii) in the State for at least as often happens, members opposite did not two months during the listen to what we on this side Period of three years im- of the Chamber had to say. This mediately preceding the reason having now been presented commencement of this by members of another place, the Act. Committee should take more notice of Provided that the provisions of this it than it did originally. All it is sought paragraph shall not apply to a person to achieve is to enable women between 21 who has not prior to the commence- to 60 years of age to serve on juries. The ment of the Physiotherapists Act age limit is the same as that which applies Amendment Act, 1954, previously to men. I cannot see any reason why the made application to the Board to be age of service for women should be differ- registered under the provisions of this ent from that of men. I consider that a Act as a physiotherapist and been re- woman aged 21 is much more stable and fused such registration. better fitted to serve on a jury than a man [21 September, 1954.] 1727

of the same age, and more fitted to take and maternal reasons are on citizenship rights. I hope members will necessary, and exemption on give way and not insist on the amendment. these grounds should be no more controversial than when Hon. A. F. Griffith: Was the diagree- given to a man who may be ment in another place on party lines? engaged in military training The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not or service. know. Those are good points. Hon. A. F. Griffith: You should find out. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Excellent! The CHIEF SECRETARY: I have enough to worry about here without bother- The CHIEF SECRETARY: The letter ing about what happens in another place. continues- During the debate, it was said that some (b) We deplore the mid-Victorian women's organisations are in favour of attitude of some of our legis- women serving on juries. I received this lators, who have obviously letter from the Women's Service Guild of failed to observe that two Western Australia today- world wars proved beyond all C. H. Henning: What is the mem- doubt that women were cap- Hon. able of rising to the same bership of that organisation? heights and make the same The CHIEF SECRETARY: I have not sacrifices as men, and surely the slightest idea. earned the right to play a Hon. H1. Hearn: Do you not think you part in administering British should find that out? justice, which should not mean half humanity standing The CHAIRMAN: Order! I would ask in Judgment on the other part. members to allow the Chief Secretary to continue. (c) We are at a loss to under- stand why some of the mem- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not bers we have returned to Par- know the membership of this organisation, liamnent are Prone to regard but I believe that many women's organisa- Western Australian women as tions are affiliated with it. It has been less intelligent or less capable established for many years. and a large than women in other parts of number of its members take a leading part the world including England, in the everyday activities of women's New Zealand and even parts organisations. It is an old established of our Eastern States. body and we should take some notice of Hon. Sir Charles Latham: We have not the opinions expressed. The letter reads- said anything of the sort. At a recent State Executive meeting of the above Guilds the contents and The CHIEF SECRETARY: The letter proposed amendments of the Hill to continues- admit women to jury service were fully We would Point out that there is discussed- nothing revolutionary in jury service for women; our English sisters have So it was evidently not a snap decision. Performed this duty for more than -and I was instructed to bring before 35 years- your notice and, if possible- That shows we are lagging well behind. I am trying to make it possible- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Thank good- -the notice of your fellow legislators ness we are not their equal in all the the following points:- things they do. (a) That the Women's Service The CHIEF SECRETARY: The letter Guilds which are composed of continues- a number of separate guilds, and which represent a stron -and Obviously without any of the cross-section of organised and dreadful consequences feared by some civic-minded women, are of our legislators. Surely our women, wholeheartedly in favour of many of whom have spring from fine the Hill being passed in its pioneer stock, are not less capable. original form to admit women I do not think anyone can dispute that. to jury service on the same terms as men. We recognise Hon. Sir Charles Latham: They are speaking of a lot of issues that have not the need for an exemption been questioned. clause on account of the prac- tical difference between the The CHIEF SECRETARY: The letter natural contribution of work continues- given by men and women In (d) We see in the proposed the life of the community. amendments a subtle attempt We fully realise that tempor- to nullify the Bill because ary exemption on account of both or either would make it home and family obligations practically unworkable. 1728 1728COUNCIL.)

I agree with those sentiments. The CHIEF SECRETARY: I would not We fail to see how women would be have forgotten had it been strong enough able to prove in advance that they to convince Me. It must have been very had reached the age of thirty years, weak indeed. and we would urge any man to look Rion. H. Hearn: It might be a question carefully at his own son and daughter of your intelligence. at the age of twenty-one years and decide for himself which is the more The CHIEF SECRETARY: I might say mature. Any amendment which re- the same of members who are opposing quired women to give written notice men on this question. I wish to be lair, that they desired to serve on a jury as I always try to be on all questions dealt would be a very retrograde step as it with in this Chamber. I have a letter could be an open invitation to the from the Western Australian Housewives' wrong types and, in this way, might Association. spoil the balance of a jury. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: And from (e) When we read that state- the fish-wives' association, too? ments have been made in the Hon. H. L. Roche:, How many members House that members are con- has that association? cerned because they do not Hon. Sir Charles Latham: About 16, know what women really want or on what conditions, The CHIEF SECRETARY: Members we cannot help but express might change their tune when I have read surprise at this unusual con- this letter. It states-- sideration. in a few words, It has been decided by State Execu- we want equality of privilege, tive of W.A. Housewives' Association opportunity, responsibility, in regard to the Jury Bill now amended and a chance for women to by W.A. Parliament to support the prove that they can play a following:- part in comm unity life in the 5A. (1) Subject to the provisions of administration of British jus- sections seven and eight of tice, and, above all, we urge this Act any person between that this matter of civic re- the ages of thirty years and cognition of women be re- sixty years (subject to no dis- garded in the light of justice crimination of sex). and niot party politics. We Trusting that you as a member of appreciate and thank you for the Legislative Council will give above your support. consideration before the Jury Bill is That was signed by the secretary. I finally dealt with. think that that letter well expresses the That is signed by the State president. point of view of the womenfolk. These women evidently did not study the Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Especially question, because there is nothing in the the final reference-party politics. Bill dealing with menfolk. The CHIEF SECRETARY: The hon. Hon. L. C. Diver: It was suggested. member might forget that. The CHIEF SECRETARY: But we are Hon. Sir Charles Latham: No, we can- dealing with facts. not. Hon. H. Hearn: You mean that you do The CHIEF SECRETARY: Why intro- not agree with that letter. duce party politics? The CHIEF SECRETARY: The Bill Hon. Sir Charles Latham: You read it deals with women, and the letter urges in the letter. that the ages for both men and women The CHIEF SECRETARY: If they are should be 30. Do they mean that when right in their assumption that party poli- we raise the age of men eligible for jury tics has been introduced, why introduce service to 30, that of women should also it now? be 30? if so, I agree. Hon. H. Heamn: You do not agree -with Hon. H. Hearn: But you do not intend that part of the letter. to do it. The CHIEF SECRETARY: Surely to The CHIEF SECRETARY: This letter heaven we can decide whether the age has not expressed what the organisation should be 21 or 30! That is all that is set out to do. contained in the amendment. We have Hon. H. Rearn: You seem to be a agreed to the principle of women serving little biased. on juries, and it is merely a question of The CHIEF SECRETARY: NO; a lib- determining the age. I cannot under- eral interpretation of the letter would be stand why there should be a differentia- that those women approve of the equality tion between the ages of men and women. of the sexes. Hence I ask the Commit- No logical reason has been given for it. tee not to discriminate. I would not at- Hon, L. C. Diver: You have forgotten. tempt to convert members. [21 September, 1954.] 1729

Hon. N. E. Baxter: You have not con- in this matter. I would place women verted too many. far above my own level, and I appeal to members to think of their The CHIEF SECRETARY: I know how mothers as being on that higher level. narrow the hon. member's views are. Do not ask them to descend to the drudgery Hon. N. E. Baxter: People in glass of life and associate themselves with some houses, etc. of the filthy cases that we know occur from The CHIEF' SECRETARY: The hon. time to time. member's views are so narrow that he There is no doubt that these little could Peep through a keyhole. coteries, whether of men or women, suffer from imaginitis. They think they are an The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the influential body when, in reality, they Chief Secretary to proceed. are a very small group. I have seen them The CHIEF SECRETARY: The first over a number of years; some of them are letter definitely supports the Hill as in- the same as those sitting in parts of the troduced. The second letter, we can as- House this evening. I heard one member sume, supports equality in the matter of describe them as "iron-jawed women talk- ages. ing about things they know nothing about Hon. H. Hearn: I think that is a in reality." I do not say that, because I wrong assumption. have a far greater respect for women. But I think they should have a respect for The CHIEF SECRETARY: We can for- themselves. There are certain things which get the second letter, but I have produced are Part of a man's duty, and there are one from -an accredited Organisation set- others which are part of a woman's duty. ting out the views of the women. What about members producing letters from I do not want to see our women brought other women's organisations giving the op- down to the level of Russian women who posite view? Can they do It? If so, I work on the streets and wharves. I have should be Pleased to hear them. Having seen some of these meetings of, in their accepted the principle of service by women, own opinion, influential women. I have let us make the age the same for women even attended some of them; and I ad- as for men. I would support an amend- dressed some of them in my more youthful ment to make the age for men 30 years, days when I had some influence in this but that is not the question at issue. State. I hope members will stick to the decision we made the other evening, be- Hon. N. E. Baxter: You are part of cause we have given a good deal of con- the Government. sideration to this measure. The majority I-on. H. Hearn: Bring in a Bill for of women do not want this legislation. If that purpose. the age is raised from 21 to 30, it will make The CHIEF SECRETARY: The age for little difference. Even younger men are men is 21 to 60, and I ask members not generally challenged today because older to insist on a different age for women. men are preferred for jury service. Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: I hope Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: I hope the that the Committee will insist on the Commi:ttee will not insist upon its amend- amendment. If anything would convince ments. Sir Charles Latham would have us mec that we should insist, it was the final believe that we are still back in the time paragraph in the letter from the Women's of Queen Victoria. We have to look at this Service Guild to the effect that this ques- question from a modern viewpoint and try tion should be removed from Party Poli- to see it through the minds of our modern tics. Last Year it was not a party mat- young women. To say that women of 21 ter, and we find members who opposed the should not serve on juries is casting a Hill on that occasion supporting this reflection on them. Are we going to say mea sure. that our young women in Western Australia Hon. R. J. Boylen: A very different Bill. are not as far advanced as women in other Hon. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: Why States and countries? Women are asking are they now supporting the Bill? Be- for equal rights in this matter, and I cause it has been made a party issue. think we should give them those rights. The Chief Secretary: Did not some Hon. Sir Charles Latham: How many are members cross from my side and oppose asking for it? it? Hon. R. F. Hutchison: All of them. H-on. Sir CHARLES LATHAM: We Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: Sir Charles shall see how they vote tonight. I sug- Latham would have us believe that the gest that pressure has been put on the Women's Service Guild is simply a pack party, and I shall be amazed if members of old women who sit and haggle over who supported some of the amendments things that mean nothing. It is a credit- will tonight vote with us. We are the able Organisation; one that has contributed fathers of the race, and should appreciate a good deal to the welfare of the State. To that there is a time in the lives of mothers say that its membership comprises only a when they should stay at home. I ob- handful of women is completely wrong. ject to putting women on a level with men This body has hundreds of members. 1730 (COUNCIL.]

Hon. H. Bearn: How do you know? from any section of our society to alter it Hon. Sir Charles Latham: He is one of in any radical manner. We have taken the them. important step of following other States of Australia, and other countries of the Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: I would be British Empire, in extending the liability Proud to be a member. Several other bodies for jury service to women. are affiliated with this organisation, and the letter quoted by the Chief Secretary Hon. C. H. Simpson: This is not the indicates what its members want. Women same as in New South Wales or Queens- have been fighting for this equality down land. through the ages, from the time of Mrs. Hon. E. M. HEENAN: I will leave out Pankburst. I agree that we do not want any further mention of New South Wales our Australian women to work on the roads or Queensland, except to point out that the as they do in Russia. But in times of war age of 21 years applies to women in those our women have come forward and worked States. Having taken the important step willingly. If our women serve on juries -and it is an important one-of extending from the age of 21, it will assist the ad- the liability for jury service to women, ministration of the State, because when why should we apply a different age to their names are put on the rolls they will the two sexes? I do not think any member automatically be placed on the jury list, could argue that a man between the ages and this will assist in making our adminis- of 21 and 30 has proved to be unsuitable tration more simple. for this work. To my knowledge no judge I believe that'women would be a great has ever made such a statement. But asset on juries, particularly In certain cases. now, when we intend to extend jury service I do not think they would be called upon to to women, members want to alter the age. sit on sordid cases. But women are ex- What logical argument can there be in perienced in the facts of life; and today favour of such a proposal? We give the our young women know what life means. vote for Commonwealth and Legislative and can face up to its obligations. The Assembly elections to men and women at least we can try to do is to promote the the age of 21 years. We do not argue that rights of women and not retard them. The one is more or less suitable than the other old Victorian idea is gone. Women in Hon. C. H. Simpson: But do not 80 per America are playing a large part in the cent, of the womenfolk ask their menfolk affairs of that country. Many of them are which way they should vote. executives of big businesses; they serve in Hon. Sir Charles Latham: He knows Government affairs and many branches of they do. industry. Hon. E. M. HEENAN: I have just made There is no reason why our womenfolk the statement that since this country should not do the same thing. We should formed itself into a Commonwealth, open wide the door and give them the free- women of 21 have had the same privileges dom which they desire. They have asked as men of 21 as regards the franchise. to be allowed to sit on juries, and that Whether that is right or wrong, it is too right should be given to them so that they late to argue now; it is the principle that can play their full part in the administra- has been adopted. We have adopted the tion of our State. To condemn women's principle that a girl of 21, the same as a organisations is wrong. We should give the young man of 21, can be elected to the women of this State the same right as Federal Parliament. We have adopted the women in other parts of the world already principle that a young woman of 21, in enjoy. the same way as a young man of 21, can Hon. E. M. HEENAN: We have passed be elected to the Legislative Assembly. the second reading of this measure and, by Whether that is right or wrong, I am not doing so. have adopted the principle that prepared to argue at the moment; but it women should be eligible and liable to serve is a principle that has been adopted, and on juries. There is a most important prin- I do not think anyone could indicate ciple involved in the motion moved by the .many disadvantages in it. Chief Secretary. Almost from time im- Hon. C. H. Simpson: Is there any com- memorial, men between the ages of 21 and parison between the classes of duty they 6D have been liable to serve on juries; and are obliged to undertake? during the years that I have been in this Chamber, I have not heard it sug- Hon. E. M. HEENAN: I would say that that the age of 21 should be altered. the duties that a person between 21 and 30 gested years of age would have to fulfil as a I put it to members that they have never member of the Commonwealth Parliament. heard judges or leaders of our society or as a member of the Legislative Assembly, complain about the present age limits as would weigh up fairly evenly with the re- they apply to men. sponsibilities and judgment required for I think it goes without saying that the the ordinary jury service that such a jury system in Western Australia has person would have to carry out. We per- proved a great success. It is by no means mit men between 21 and 30 to be doctors. perfect; but it has worked satisfactorily, We do not say we will not admit a woman and there has been no public agitation as a doctor until she is 30 years of age. I C2l September. 1954.1 131731 am sure Dr. Hislop, will agree that many of the Bill: and members know that, had women doctors under 30 years of age are it not been for the amendment which I doing a splendid job. had placed on the notice paper, the Bill Hon. Sir Charles Latham: By them- would not have been supported at all. It is debatable whether the measure, without any selves? amendments, would have been accepted. H-on. E. M. HEENAN.- It does not matter I do not think it would have been. In whether it is by themselves or with the support of his argument, the Chief Sec- help of someone else. Although women are retary said that good reasons had been admitted to be doctors before they are 30 advanced by another place for disagree- years of age, some members here are not ing to our amendments. No reasons at all prepared to permit women under that age have been given, and there does not seem to serve on juries. The University of West- to be any intention by members in another ern Australia does not apply an age limit place to accept any amendments at all. of 30 years for women who qualify as lawyers. My own wife qualified with very Letters have been read from women's high degrees at the University when she organisations claiming that we should ac- was about 25 years of -age. In spite of that, cept the Bill in its entirety. I doubt members do not wish women to serve on whether they represent a true cross-sec- say they tion of the opinion of women in this State. juries until they are 30. Members In common with other members, I have are not capable of serving on juries until interrogated ladies in different sections of they are 30. society in different places in the State, H-on, Sir Charles Latham: We did not and very few showed interest in the issue; say that. none adopted a positive attitude about the Hon. J. G. Hislop: It has never been Bill being passed. Most were disinterested. said in this Chamber. On the other hand, many women would accept service if the Bill were passed in H-on. E. M. HEENAN. It has been lim- the amended form, and if they were not plied. What o ther inference could be placed under a mandatory obligation to drawn when members say they are not be enrolled as jurors. They would prob- going to admit women to juries until they ably consider it was the law of the land are 30? and accept it as their duty if they Hon. X. E. Baxter; it is because of the were not debarred by any physical in- inconvenience that would be placed on capacity from performing that duty. them. The legislation is experimental. It has Hion. E, M. HEENAN: Women teachers been introduced in only two other States. have a responsible duty to assist in the In other States, the main qualification is formation of character. that women -shall apply to be placed on Hon. C. H. Simpson: That is entirely the jury list. Here, it is in reverse; it is different. proposed to co-opt all women on the Leg- islative Assembly roll who are 21 years of Hon. Sir Charles Latham: That is their age. Our amendments will not prevent motherly instinct. a single woman who wishes to be on the Hon. E. M. HEENAN: There is no such jury list from having her name placed on age limit imposed on a woman who wishes it. It may cause young women a lot of to qualify as a nurse. It would be a retro- embarrassment when they find they have grade step to apply a different age limit to tackle a very unsavoury case, anid at the for women than for men jurors. last Moment they may ask to be excused. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: You have The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. made some progress since last year. member is speaking on amendment No. 2 Hon. E. M. HEENAN: I thank the hon. rather than on amendment No. 1; he is member for the compliment, and hope to talking about being excused and so forth. continue in that direction. If it is in- Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: The two are to convenient for women under 30 to serve some extent interdependent, The question on juries, it is equally so for those between is whether or not we should accept the -30 and 60. There are plenty of safeguards proposals from another place, or whether in the legislation. Women can have their we should adhere to our amendment which names removed from the jury list by writ- provides for an age of 30 years. The sub- ing in. If called up, they can apply to stance of our intention to make the age have their services dispensed with. It 30 was that women would be dealing with would be a retrograde step to fix an age indictable offences; not ordinary misde- limit. meanours, but criminal offences, some of Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: Judging from the which would be exceedingly unsavoury. progress of the debate, it would seem that While we have great admiration for the we are .still at the second reading stage. sex and feel that they may be superior in The Chief Secretary has moved that we do the appreciation of culture and beauty, we not insist on the amendment, but I hope claim that the duty of serving on a jury the Committee will insist. We have given should only be undertaken by women who great consideration to the pros and cons have arrived at the age of emotional 1732 1932[COUNCIL.)

maturity; it should not be thrust on the Hon. F. ft. H. LAVERtY: I deny the shoulders of young women who may not statement by Sir Charles Latham that know that they are liable to be called on. this is a political Issue. There are bodies I hope members will stand by the amend- of women in every State and every ments we agreed on in this Chamber and country which have been formed for the that they will vote against the Chief Sec- advancement of women's Interests. There retary's motion. are all sorts of organisations. Hon. F. Rt. H. LAVERY: I have not The CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. mem- spoken on this Bill before. It appears to ber connect his remarks with the amend- me that the question of women of only a ment? certain age being capable of serving on juries is parallel with the great fight put Hon. F. R,. H. LAVERY: Yes. There is up by the women of England for the right no use anybody saying that the people who to vote in the country in which they lived. wrote the letters that have been referred Not many months ago this State was to during the debate are not responsible favoured by the visit of one of the finest leaders of women. types of women, who is the mother of two children. I refer, of Hon. R. F. HUYTCHISON: Along with course, to our gracious thousands of other women, I have fought Queen. I do not think we need look any for many years for women to be on an further when drawing a comparison than equal footing with men in civics. Life to the Queen herself. itself is a matter of trial and error, and Hon. A. R. Jones: You would not submit there is time enough to find out whether her to the sordid side of life? we have done the wrong thing. At least let us start to be just. All the debate I H-on. F. R. H. LAVERY: It has amused have beard has implied that men should me to listen to this reference to the sordid judge what a woman of 21 thinks or does side of life. The Young women who train not think. I consider that is presumption. as nurses in our hospitals see the sordid A woman of 21 is as capable as any man side of life at the age of 18. In the early of that age of thinking, and doing, and stages of the war, before we had sufficient judging what is right. drugs, they saw more of the sordid side H-on. L. C. Diver: Nobody suggested of life than any of us here are likely to do. otherwise. Hon. C. H. Simpson: They were not Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: I understand dealing with criminals, though. that that was the position. What are Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: Those young members objecting for? ladies have to carry a burden which would Hon. L. C. Diver: You know as well as make a lot of men sitting in this Chamber I do. squirm. Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: Surely it is Hon. C. I-1. Simpson: We admire them not out of blind prejudice, which is the for that. only other deduction I can make. It is Hon. F. R. H. LAVERY: No matter what about time we realised the changing pat- argument is used against women of 21 tern of our living, which has come about years of age, somebody can submit argu- through the education of the masses. I ments in favour. My own opinion was remember the bitter fight we had to secure summed up in an interjection by Mr. the vote for women. only blind prejudice Watson after the vote was taken last time. prevented that, and it took a war to He said, "Where is the equality here?" All awaken men to the position. I do not the women are asking for is equality. So think that women have shown themselves far as the argument that this is a political less capable of exercising the franchise stunt is concerned, I want to stress that since they obtained the right. In England, not one woman, apart from Mrs. Hutchi- it is provided that a British subject be- son, has spoken to me on the matter; so tween 21 and 60 is liable to serve on a jury. my mind is absolutely clear. I have had That has been the position since 1919, and no leads from anywhere else. there has been no outcry in that country to, the effect that it is wrong. Let us advance one little bit in this matter. If at the end of 12 months or Hon. L. Craig: But there they must two years we find there is need to amend serve. the Act, that can be done. If we want to Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: The same as establish the principle that women shall we want them to do here. They can be sit On juries--and that principle has been excused. This business of excuse is only more or less adopted-then let us provide a smokescreen, because women can be that they shall sit on equal conditions with released from the obligation the same as males. I hope the political aspect will be men. I have known men who would go to completely forgotten, because this is not a any lengths to be excused from jury service. Political matter. That is not to say that women do not Hon. Sir Charles Latham: What! recognise their rights, duties, and responsi- bilities. Women of 21 are capable of set- The CHAIRMAN: Order! I will ask the ting up homes and undertaking the rearing hon. member to keep to the amendment. of families. Thousands of them have (21 September, 1951.1 173313 experienced the great miracle of child- Hon. Sir Charles Latham: So can a birth; and to say that a woman of 21 is woman. not as capable as a man of summing up Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: That is a case on a jury, is presumptuous. I have incorrect. I wish to read an extract from never heard anything more presumptuous. the "Daily News" of last night to indi- I want to ask members opposite- cate to members that this matter is be- The CHAIRMAN: I would ask the hon. yond party politics. The extract is as member to stick to the amendment, and follows- not to worry about other hon. members. Women Liberals Beat Men On Female The amendment has reference to age. Jury List Vote. Hon. R. F. HUTCISON: It was my BRISBANE, Mon: Women dele- intention to ask members whether they gates won the support of the Liberal did not think it presumptuous to main- Party State Convention for automatic tain that they know what is best for a inclusion of women in the jury list. woman of 21. 1 thought the time when The motion was cardied on a show of that view was held had long passed . The hands among a predominantly female age has gone when that kind of thing audience against strong opposition by occurred; and the change has come men. It read:- through education, and through women We strongly urge that women of becoming aware of the injustices and voting age be automatically included anomalies of the old laws and customs on the jury list, and in murder that were repressive towards women. It and sex cases it should be compulsory is a retrograde step to say that women to include women in the jury. shall serve on juries at a different age Liberal Women's Council chairman from Men. A woman would be able to Mrs. J. Voller said if women were ask for release from jury service if she entitled to vote they should also be was child-bearing or in any other way able to serve on a jury. prevented from carrying out jury service. "A woman can place her name on I have heard a lot about what women the jury list," she said. do not want. I have heard it said that "But if women are called for jury they do not want to serve on juries. I service they are always challenged. have enough evidence around me-and I because of the novelty of having have not seen any produced to the con- women on a jury." trary-to show that this is the very thing that women are crying out for-to Mrs. H. J. Fox, of Albion East serve on juries equally with men, between said: "It is a tragedy for a woman to the ages of 21 and 60. I am a member appear before a jury of men only with of the Women's Service Guild, and I no women there to understand their know the body of women it represents. It Psychology." is a very Powerful organisation. I also I ask this Committee not to insist on its have this letter, which I read to members amendment, and that the Bill as originally previously, and which came from the submitted, with the ages of 21 to 60, be National Council of women. retained. At 21 a woman is quite capable of having all the knowledge of a The CHAIRMAN: Dealing with the woman's life and feelings, and is age? capable of serving on juries which try Hon. R. F. HUJTCHISON: Yes, asking cases of rape and other sex offences. for equal rights. That council represents A woman's understanding is very import- millions of women. It is an international ant. We fought for years to have still- organisation and represents hundreds of births the subject of coroners' Inquiries. thousands of women in Australia alone. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. So to say that we are not speaking f or member to connect her remarks with the women is utter nonsense. This very Cham- amendment. ber is a negation of justice to women, be- cause the franchise is not given to a Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: Women of 21 woman unless she has property. years of age are quite capable of carrying out these duties. They know these things, Hon. Sir Charles Latham: The qualifica- and a lot of them have been through some tion is exactly the same as that for men. of them. There is no question of age when Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: That is not it comes to the professions. There are women justices, and they have all honour- correct. ably acquitted themselves. Ron. Sir Charles Latham: It is. Hon. E. M. Heenan: There is no age Hon. R. F HUTCHISON: A woman limit there. property. can vote only if she has Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: That is so. Hon. Sir Charles Latham: The same This is only a refusal to recognise the as a man. changing attitude of society. Women, H-on. R. F. HUTCHISON: A man can through education, understand inner forces vote if he is the head of the house. of life that are only now beginning to be [COUNCIL.) recognised by medical men. To say that in my district, Mr. Lavery said that no women cannot judge equally with men on female had communicated with him on the these aspects when they have been edu- matter. So important is this subject that cated in the samne schools and universities nobody communicated with him!£ It is is wrong, and to say that they are not strange to me that the Chief Secretary can capable at 21 years of age of serving with command such respect in regard to the men on Juries- Bills he introduces. One wonders at the quick changes that take place. Mr. Heenan Hon. Sir Charles Latham: Nothing of put forward a reasoned speech as to why the sort! we should agree to the Assembly's request, Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: Then what is but we remember that last Year he voted the quibble about? Is it just blind pre- against a very similar Bill. judice? Women of 21 are just as intimately Hon. E. M. Heenan: Not a very similar concerned with life as are men of 21. In Bill at all. fact, they are more concerned to see jus- tice done to some people. We have had Hon. A. F. GRIFFI-TH: The measure last cases Just recently where a woman on the year was to allow women to serve on juries. jury would mean a lot because she would and to give a majority verdict. have a definite contribution to make on The CHAIRMAN: Is the hon. member her side of the question. I, with all the going to connect up his remarks with the sincerity that is in me, ask members to question before the Chair? pass the Bill as it was; and to be at least fair. If, later, it is found there is anything Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Yes. wrong with it. I will be the first to get Hon. E. M. Heenan: You are utterly up here and admit it. wrong. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The hon. mem- The CHAIRMAN: Order!F ber who has just resumned her seat intends Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Last year we at all casts to stick to her Point, which is found you, Mr. Chairman, of all people that we believe there is a difference in the saying this-"-II do not agree with women mentality and ability of a woman between acting as jurors." Mr. Bennetts said this-- the ages of 21 and 30 years as against the "I am of the same opinion as Mr. Hall." man. In spite of numerous objections and Hon. G. Bennetts: A different Bill. positive assurances that that is not in any- H-on. C. W. D. Barker: Read what I said. body's mind, she, for the benefit of the gallery, desires to stick to her point. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: The hon. mem- ber made a lovely speech. The Chief Sec- Hon. R. F. Hutchison: I object to that retary during his speech asked whether statement. any member could produce evidence to The CHAIRMAN; Mr. Griffith is quite show that any other women's organisation, within his rights. apart from the one that had communicated with him, had written to disclose Its ideas. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Could I finally Well, one has written to me. The organisa- assure Mrs. Hutchison that, so far as I am tion is the West Australian Women's concerned, there is no difference between Parliament. I do not know how many the mentality or ability of a girl of 21 as members it has, but since the Chief Secre- compared with a boy of 21? tary has made the request, I feel I should Hon. R. F. Hutchison: What are you supply tis information. The Premier of objecting to? the W.A. Women's Parliament writes to H-on. A. F GRIFFITH: It is not a ques- me, in a letter dated the 15th September, tion of objection. I support the age of that a resolution was passed in these 30 to 60 because I believe there are certain terms-- obligations that a woman between the ages Any person, male or female, serving of 21 and 30 has which prevent her from on juries shall be between the ages of serving on a jury. 30 and 60 years of age. Hon, R. F. Hutchison: What do you- The Chief Secretary: That is the same Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Cannot I con- as ours. tinue without these infernal interjections? Hon. E. M. Heenan: How old do you The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. mem- have to be in order to be a member of the ber to continue his remarks without inter- Women's Parliament? ruption. After all, he makes plenty of Hon. A. F. GRIFITH: I do not know. interjections himself. I ask him to con- I am not a member myself. tinue his speech. Hon. R. J. Boylen: Are you in the Girl Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: I spoke against Guides? the Bill on the second reading, and then Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: No. voted for it, and I did so because this amendment was on the notice paper. I The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. did not cast my vote without first ,com- member to speak to the amendment, and I municating with at least one women's or- request other members to allow him to ganisati'sn ind some Independent people continue without interruption. (21 September, 1954.1 131735

Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: These frivolous Hon. G. BENNEflS: The clerk of interjections show the seriousness with courts or the Electoral Office would place which members on the other side view the all the names on the list- Bill. I cannot let them go unanswered. Fancy suggesting that I would be a member Hon. Sir Charles Latham: How would he know that they were not more than 35 of the Girl Guides! miles from the court? The Chief Secretary: It is appropriate to the remarks you make. Hon. 0. BENNETTS: The woman con- cerned could communicate with him. At Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: At least two all events the Bill will lead to balanced members of the Women's Parliament told juries. I am thankful to a woman f or me what was behind the motion. being here today- Hon. C. W. D. Barker: Is not that mak- The CHAIRMAN: The hon. member ing a party matter of it? It is a Liberal must connect his remarks to the Bill, organisation. Hon. 0. BENNErTS: I am referring to H-on. A. F. GRIFFITH: It is obvious the good care my wife took of me years ago. that the ignorance of Mr. Barker on the I hope the Committee does not insist on constitution of the Women's Parliament is the amendment. appalling. H-on. J. MURRAY: I move- The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the That the Committee do now divide. hon. member not to cast reflections on Motion put and a division taken with the members of this Chamber. following result:- Hon. A. P. GRIFFITH: When these two ladies communicated with me, they told me Noes ...... 9 what was in the minds of the members of their organisation when the motion was Majority for ... . .9 brought forward. I told them that the Bill did not deal with men but with women, Ayes. and that it was not possible at this stage Ron. N. E. Baxter Hon. Sir Chas. Lathamn to introduce into the Bill any amendment Hon. L, Craig Hon. J. Murray dealing with men. They told me that the Hon. L. C. Diver Hon. H. L. Roche Hon. J. J. Garrigan Hon. C, H. Simpson Women's Parliament was quite satisfied Hon. Sir Frank Gibson Hon. J. DJ. Teahan with the application of the age between the Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon, J. Mel. Thomson years of 30 and 60. They also informed me Hon. HT.H-earn Han. H. K. Watson Ron. C. H. Henning Hon. W. F. willeses that it was the desire of the Women's Hon. J1. G. Hiliop Hon. R. J. Boylen Parliament, as it was of the organisation r2'eIWra that wrote to the Chief Secretary, tha~t Woe: women should come within that category. Hon. 0. W. D).Barker Hon, R. F. Hutchison in addition, they desired that they should Hon. 0. Bennetts Hon. A. Rt. Jones Hon. 5. M. Davies Eon. H. C. Strickland have equal property qualifications. Hon. 0. Fraser Hon. F. Rt. H. Lavery Hon. E. M. Heenan: And put men back Hon.-E. M. Heenan (Teller.) to 30. too? Motion thus passed. Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: Yes. The CHAIRMAN: The question now is Hon. E. M. Heenan: They ought to make that amendment No. 1 be not insisted on. it 40. Before the vote is taken. I cast my vote Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH: We should not with the "ayes". go into the merits of this particular phase, Question put and a division taken with because it does not enter into the amend- the following result:- question of deciding ment. There is no Ayes ...... 14 this matter on the issue of capability or Intelligence. I hope the Committee will not insist on its amendment. A tie 0 H-on. 0. BENNETTS: Seeing that women can vote at elections for another place at Ayes. 21 years of age, I think that should be the Hon. C. W. D. Barker Eon. Rt. F. Hutchieon Ron. G. Hennetts Hon. A. Rt. Jones age under this measure. We all know of Hon. E. Mt. Davies Hon. F. R. H. Lavery women who at an early age have attained Non. 0. Fraser Hon. H. C. Strickland academic qualifications or have dis- Hon. J. J. Garrigan Hon. .7. fl. Teahan high Hon. WV.Rt. Hall Non. WV.F. Wiesee tinguished themselves in other ways in our Hon. E. M. Heenan Hion. Rt..J. Darien community. Under this measure a woman (Teller.) can, in certain circumstances, apply to be Noes. removed from the jury list. She can apply Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon, Sir Chas. Latham if she is bearing a child or is In Ill-health Hon. L,. Craig Hon. J. Murray Hon. L. C. Diver Hon, H. L. Roche or- Hon. Sir Frank Gibson Ron. C. H. Simpson Hon. E. MA.Heenan: Or for any reason Hon. H. Hearn Hion. J. MCI. Thomson Hon. 0. H. Henning Hon, H. K. Watson at all! Ron. 3. 0. Hislop Ron. A. F. GriffIth The Chief Secretary: Or for no reason! (Teller.) 1736 1736(COtINCIL.l

The CHAIRMAN: The voting being serve, will perform that duty. What would equal, the question passes in the negative. be the position if we stipulated that only* those men who wrote in to act as jurors Question thus negatived; the Council's should serve? We would be in a nice posi- amendment insisted on. tion! No. 2. Clause 4-In Subsection (1) of Hon. H. K. Watson: Your proposal is proposed new Section 5A add a further not much better than the original one. paragraph to stand as paragraph (c) as follows:- The CHIEF SECRETARY: It is. There are many women who would feel that the (c) notifies in writing the Resident or law had said that they should serve and Police Magistrate of the district they would not exercise the right to excuse in which she resides that she de- themselves because they could consider sires to serve as a juror. that that would be a duty they should per- The CHAIRMAN: The Assembly's form, and they would serve as jurors. How- reason for disagreeing is- ever, they would not write in to apply to be In view of the fact that all women put on to the jury list because they would on the Legislative Assembly roll will be branded by many people as sticky- be qualified to act on juries, they beaks. should so act unless they individually Hon. H. Hearn: You are drawing upon express their desire not to do so. your imagination. The CHIEF SECRETARY: I move- The CHIEF SECRETARY: I am not. I That the amendment be not insisted am basing my remarks on human nature, on. and the hon. member knows that that is While I do not wish to comment on the true. We will ruin all prospects of get- vote of this Committee, I think the posi- ting the best women to serve on a jury tion is unsatisfactory when the debate is if we carry this amendment. Does not the thus cut short, because then the mover of secret of the success of the jury system the motion is denied his right of reply. lie in the fact that, with certain excep- In view of the closeness of the voting on tions, a man over 21 years has to serve? the Previous amendment I think that, given Ron. N. E. Baxter: With certain excep- an opportunity to reply, I might have been tions! able to influence the result. I at least The CHIEF SECRETARY: There will made the difference of convincing one be certain exceptions with women who do member to come over to this side of the not want to serve. In the same way there Chamber. are certain exceptions with men who are Hon. J7. G. Hislop: You have convinced civil servants, members of Parliament, two- at any rate. and many others who have property quali- Hon. H. Rearn: They were convinced fications. Even with all those certain ex- before. ceptions, we still find that we have a good jury system that represents a cross-section The CHIEF SECRETARY: At least I of the public. Will we get a cross-section have achieved something. I think I could of the womenfolk from those who are even have convinced Dr. Hislop if I had forced to write in to serve on a jury? We had the right of reply. will take away the main essential of the Hon. J7. 0. Hislop: You might have jury system; that is, a cross-section of the even convinced me to vote against the community. third reading. Hon. C. H. Simpson: By press-ganging The CHIEF SECRETARY: I do not them. think the hon. member would need much The CHIEF-SECRETARY: No, not by convincing to do that. This is a bad press-ganging them; merely by expressing amendment. It provides that only those the fact that Parliament has said that all who write in shall serve on juries. By women shall serve on juries, unless under this we are going to make women feel that certain circumstances. Much has been if they write in, they will be looked upon said about women serving as jurors on by everyone else as sticky-beaks. terrible cases. There is no need for them Hon. H. Hearn: Nonsense! to serve because, right up to the time they are sworn in as jurors, they can be ex- Hon. C. H. Simpson: Nonsense! empted. When they were called, they The CHIEF SECRETARY: I think that would know the type of case they were what the hon. member has said all night is required to serve on. Members set them- nonsense, but what I say is a fact. If we selves up as judges of what women ought place the names of all women on the regis- to do and do not leave it to the women ter and say that they all have to serve, themselves to decide. They are imposing they will all be equal, but if we provide their will on the women and not allowing that only those who write in shall them to be the Judges. serve, they could quite easily be branded Hon. C. H. Simpson: We are definitely as sticky-beaks. There are many women allowing them to be the judges by allow- who, if they regard it as a duty to ing them to apply. [21 September, 1954.] 173773

. Hon. H. Hearn: The Chief Secretary is prevent many from discharging this obli- being carried away. gation, would regard it as a duty to enrol The CHIEF SECRETARY; The hon. as jurors and carry it out. On the other member Is not allowing them to be th hand, there would be a great body of judges. He is branding the women who women who, for domestic and other will write in as sticky-beaks. reasons, could not possibly discharge that duty and, by a great deal of inconvenience Hon. C. H. Simpson: Nonsense!I to themselves, would have to contract The CHIEF SECRETARY: The hon. themselves out of the obligation. I ask member definitely is. If we make it a the Committee to vote against the motion. duty, many women will regard is as such, and they will carry it out. Mr. Hearn is Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: I hope the so sure of his point of view. Members Committee will not insi~st on its amend- are too conservative and do not want to ment. I think we are doing the women change anything. Why not give this of Western Australia an injustice by say- measure a trial and, before their worst ing that they must write in and apply fears are realised, members can intro- to serve as jurors. Women are seeking duce an amendment on similar lines to equal civic rights with men. We say to the one in question ? a native, "We will give you citizenship Hon. C. H. Simpson: Let us try it the rights, but you must first apply for them." In effect, that is what we are -other way. doing to the women with regard to their The CHIEF SECRETARY: No, let us serving as jurors. try it as it is. Hon. N. E. Baxter: Has not one to Hon. H-. Hearn: You want to make it an apply for everything else, such as child obligation and not a right. endowment. etc.? IThe CHIEF SECRETARY: I want to place women in the same position as men. Hon. C. W. D. BARKER: A man, does Members want to stay in the old rut, but not apply to be placed on the jury list. I do not. I want to progress, and I con- There would be great difficulty in the eider that this is progress. I ask the administration of the law in palcing the Committee not to insist on its amend- names of all women over the age of 30 ment. If members agree with me on this on a jury list. This amendment is in- occasion, they will not regret it. sulting the women of this State because we are not offering them equality. By Hon. C. H. SIMPSON: I hope the Com- providing that women shall apply for this mittee will not agree to the Chief Secre- right,' we are carrying things a little too tary's motion. He says that the Bill does far. not regiment the women, but I say it does. I explained earlier that this legislation Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: Some mem- was experimental. We have the example bers seem to have made up their minds in two other States, but they did not en- to insist on the amendment. I want to rol women as jurors except on application. quote the following extract from "The AS It is an experiment, cannot we say that West Australian":- we should try it in a small way, and if Women Jurors Wanted for Sex there is a genuine desire on the part of Hearings. Many legal authorities be- the majority of women to serve as jurors, lieve that both sexes should be repre- we can amend the Bill as the Chief Sec- sented on juries called on to judge retary suggests? However, we should not crimes where both sexes are involved. compel them to undertake an obligation which we are sure many of them would Supporting the Bill now before the State Parliament, under which it is not be able to carry out. proposed to list women aged between In this State we have a population of 21 and 60 for jury service, legal men 600,000, half of which are females. If say that in many ways women are we take away those over 30 and under 60, better able to judge cases such as that would probably leave about 150,000. rape and unlawful carnal knowledge. They would be subject to being included in lists of jurors and separate lists for in all aspects of crime, it is various localities would have to be com- claimed, woman's regard for the law piled. There would need to be files and is greater than her pity. files of correspondence dealing with those men will be offering an insult to women who objected to serving. On the other if they insist on the amendment. Women hand, if we enrolled only those who will hesitate if they are compelled to ap- desired to serve, there would be a much ply for service on juries. Many women smaller list, and the correspondence work who are not experienced in public life, would be greatly reduced. There would but who are quite willing to carry out not be an army of men working on an their duties if the Bill is passed, will hesi- unnecessary task. tate to apply for service, In the other I am convinced that if the Bill is passed States, the experience is that women are in the form that we suggest, those women seldom called where they are compelled who are free of the handicaps that would to apply. The prejudice in tis State 1738 1738[COUNCIL.] seems to be just as deep. It is about time I believe in. As Mr. Simpson and other that men began to treat women fairly. members pointed out, difficulties will arise Thank heavens, in politics I belong to a in compelling women of 30 and over to party which is progressive at heart. apply for service on juries. The difficulties would have been negligible had the age The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. mem- been lowered to 21 years. her to connect her remarks to the amend- ment. In voting for the amendment to limit the age to 30, 1 had in mind that next Hon. R, F. HUJTCHISON: I would like year the Government would seek to lower to quote an extract from "The Western the age to 21. The argument of the Chief Mail." It was written by a man and is as Secretary impressed me tonight, mainly follows:- that a stigma would be attached to women, As a woman, she would be able to especially. in small centres, who apply for understand, in a way a man rarely jury service. For the reasons he gave, I could, the behaviour, feelings and must support the Chief Secretary. This motives of the woman involved. Many Bill has been introduced on a non-party authorities consider that where both basis. I am entirely free to vote one way sexes are concerned, both should be or the other because this matter is not represented on the jury. one of the Planks of our platform. This does not necessarily mean Hon. Sir Charles Latham: It is In your that she would be more inclined to constitution and in your platform-equal take the side of the woman. On the rights for women. contrary, her feminine mind might cut through the webs of sentimentality I-on. E. M. HEENAN: T support the that often ensnare the goad sense motion. of men where women are concerned. Question Put and a division called for. The susceptibility of men jurors to the charms of attractive females in The CHAIRMAN: Before tellers are ap- the witness-box is too well known for Pointed, I give my vote with the "ayes." further comment. Division taken with the following re- sut:- The CHAIRMAN: I am wondering bow the hon. member ties this up with the Ayes 13 amendment before us. Noes 14 Hon. R. F. HUTCHISON: That Is what Majority against 1 will apply. The extract continues- There is yet another aspect-re- Ayes. sponsibility. If women are to be con- Hon. C. W. D. Barker Hon. A. P. Jones Han. G. Hennietta Hon. F. R. H. Lavery sidered full and equal citizens with Hon. E. M. Davies Hon. H. C. Strickland men-as we do consider them in a Han. G. Fraser Hon. J. D. Teahan Hon. W. R. Hall Hon. W. F. Willesee democratic State-then they must be Elan. E. M. Heenan Hon. R. J. Boylen prepared to assume the burdens of Hon. R. F. Hutchison (Teller.) citizenship. The manner in which women are admitted to jury service in Noes. Son. N. E. Baxter Hon. .1. Murray Great Britain underlines this fact. Mon. L. Craig Hon. H. L. Roche The obligation was made under the Hon. L. 0. Diver Ron. C. H. Simpson same measure, the Sex Disqualifica- Hon. Sir Frank Gibson Hon. J. MCI. Thomson tion (Removal) Act. Hon. A. F. Griffith Hon. H. K. Watson Hon. C. H. Henning Hon. H. Ream Hon. J. 0. YHislop (Teller.) Without labouring the subject. I again Hon. Sir Chas. Lathamr assert that women are being done a great injustice by some members. As a woman, I resent this course of action. I am trying Aye. No. to present logical arguments to support Hon. J. J. Garrigan Hon. L. A Logan the case of women. Just as this Chamber Is Question thus negatived; the Council's a negation of justice to some citizens, the amendment insisted on. attitude of some members to this Bill is a negation of justice to women. Resolutions reported, the report adopted and a message accordingly returned to the Hon. E. M. HEENAN: I agree with the Assembly. Chief Secretary that the amendment should not be insisted on, although previously I House adjourned at 10.15 Pi. voted for it. During the debate, I supported the principle that women should be treated on the same basis, as far as pos- sible, as men. I was greatly perturbed when an amendment was cantied which altered that principle by limiting the age of women's service to 30 and over. That was a radical departure from the principle