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The Crime Cafe with Jeff Lindsay Presented By The Crime Cafe with Jeff Lindsay Presented By: Debbi: Hi, everyone. I'm thrilled to have with me today, the creator of my favorite serial killer, or at least one of them, Dexter Morgan, and he now has a new book out called Just Watch Me featuring his new protagonist Riley Wolfe. I just finished it and it's great, and my guest today is New York Times bestselling author, Jeff Lindsay. Jeff, it's wonderful to have you on. Jeff: Well, it's great to be had. Thank you very much. Debbi: Thank you very much. Tell us about Riley Wolfe and what prompted you to write this book. Jeff: Riley Wolfe is a master thief, maybe the best in the world. And the thing about him is for Riley, it's not about the money, it's about the challenge. He had a sort of traumatic childhood that made him grow up with two really overwhelming compulsions. And the first is to steal things that are impossible to steal. It just can't be done. And the second is, if possible, to steal them from the 1%. He has a real deep seated grudge, almost a hatred for the hereditary entitled people who just, in his mind, wallow in the money and sort of walk on everybody else with their ingrained privilege. So, it came because I wanted to do a new series and quite honestly I sort of needed to. And it was what we like to call a job of work there. I had to go through a lot of different changes, a lot of evolution. And I started with a conman and I realized that it'd be more interesting to make it someone that uses being a conman as a tool rather than an end. And so Riley Wolfe has those skills and he has an incredible skill for disguises and dialects and accents, but he uses those to get inside where you would think no one could go and steal things from the 1% that can't be taken. Debbi: Very interesting. I don't know if you did this consciously or unconsciously or if there's even a relationship, but there was part of what I saw in Riley was the Saint actually. Jeff: What's the what? Debbi: The Saint, if you're familiar with the character, the Saint. Jeff: No, I'm not. I'm sorry. Debbi: Oh, well that's, you should familiarize yourself with that character. Jeff: No, then people would say I was stealing. Debbi: Well, we don't want that. But it just reminds me of that, that mentality, that whole ability to transform themselves and then doing things just for whatever personal reason and having a deprived childhood also. Jeff: Well, so far I've also been compared to Les Mis and a couple of other things. So I guess I'm used to it. Debbi: Well, it's a very interesting psychological makeup on this character, and I have to say that he's capable of doing some really nasty things when he has to, which would make him awfully hard to like if you didn't know his backstory. So what did you do? I mean, what sort of research did you do to get into his backstory? Jeff: Well, I worked with a psychologist and I came up with a couple of basic things about him and ran them past her, and then she helped me refine it and bring it to a point. I don't know, every writer who is any good at all is at least part psychologist. But for me, one of my deep seated neuroses is that I try to get it as accurate as I can. So, I'd like to work with a psychologist, and we stuck Riley Wolfe in the pencil sharpener and kept turning until it was sharp enough. Debbi: Well, that takes some doing. I mean, that's quite a bit of work right there. Jeff: It was a job of work. Yes, ma'am. Debbi: Did you devote a certain amount of time toward the research before you wrote? I mean, how much time exactly? Do you know? Jeff: The character research and I guess physical, geographical research was a couple of years. Yeah. Hopefully that gets easier with each book. I don't need to do the background stuff anymore, but I do need to evolve it as I go. And a lot of the locations in the book are places I've been. I'll admit I hadn't been to Tehran and that doesn't seem likely either, but most of the other places I have been, I do know. I grew up in the South, so I know all of those places, too. And I've lived in New York City and most of the other places that he goes through in the book. Debbi: Yeah. Psychologically, how does Riley compare to Dexter? They both invoke this darkness in one form or another when they do bad things, I noticed. Do you think that they are similar or different in various ways? Jeff: They're very different. Debbi: Yes. Yes, they are. Jeff: Dexter is a sociopath. He doesn't have the empathy bump. He doesn't feel for his victims or anything else. With Riley, he's not a sociopath. But he's so driven. I'm sure you've known people who get so involved in doing a task, they get blinders on and they don't even notice that they're doing collateral damage around them. And that's more what Riley is. It goes into what he calls The Darkness when he kills someone. So that it's not, it's like he's not doing it. He's watching it being done, which is to protect, the feelings, the psychological background and so on. He's not really doing it. Whereas with Dexter, he wanted to enjoy every minute of it. Debbi: So the darkness for Riley is more like a denial. Jeff: Yeah. Yes. Debbi: A way of coping with it. Jeff: Yes. For Riley, he has a series of rules, I call them Riley's Laws. Coincidentally, he calls them that, too. And Riley's first law is the job comes first. And that means whatever gets in the way of doing the job has to be pushed out of the way. So he doesn't set out to kill people. But if someone is in the way of getting the job done, he doesn't mind arranging an accident. Debbi: Yes. Well, so what was it like to stop writing Dexter and start writing this character? Jeff: It was like getting a divorce or having a loved one die or something. I went through the five stages of grief before I finally retreated into my normal anxiety and neurosis. And I really didn't want to stop because all my life I've wanted to be writing a series. And I felt like I was in the groove and I think the last book in the Dexter series, Dexter is Dead, available where fine books are sold, was one of the better ones of the series. I had a lot of people tell me that. And they say, "Why did you stop? You were really in the groove there." And that's the point. I wanted to more or less go out on top and stop before it started to get tired on me. So I did that. But if I'd realized how hard and how long it would take to move on to Riley Wolfe, I might've thought twice about that. Debbi: Yeah, be careful what you wish for, huh? Can you give us a brief description of the story in Just Watch Me? Jeff: Sure. Riley Wolfe, semi-spoiler alert, at the opening of the book, he's stealing a 12-ton metal statue in plain sight in broad daylight at its dedication ceremony. And as he's driving away with the money from his client in his bank account, he realizes it was too easy and everything has been too easy lately and he needs to do something impossible. Because otherwise he'll get complacent and make mistakes and it'll be over. So he finds something impossible, which is the crown jewels of Iran are coming on an exhibition tour to America. And they will be guarded by Star Trek type technology and a team of retired SEAL mercenaries and the full platoon of Iranian Revolutionary Guard. So, it's impossible. It absolutely cannot be done. And Riley decides to do it, to steal some of the crown jewels of Iran. Now, just as background, this is maybe the most amazing collection ever seen anywhere. The Iranian crown jewels are ... it's a cliche to say beyond price, but they are. One small piece of it, the Daria-i-Noor is the largest pink diamond in the world and it is conservatively estimated to be worth 15 billion, with a B, dollars. So Riley Wolfe decides to steal it. And anything more that I say about that would be a spoiler. So I'll just say Forrest Gump. That's all I have to say about that. Debbi: Yeah, I particularly like the FBI agent in the story by the way. Delgado. He's wonderful. Jeff: He's sort of a nod to my childhood. He's Cuban-American and physically he's based on a classmate and friend of mine, [inaudible 00:12:26].
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