Being Seen and Unseen:

Racial Representation and Whiteness Bias in

Hollywood Cinema by ROSA K. LEMBCKE

______

A Master’s Thesis in Communications

at Roskilde University Center

Semester: Spring 2017

Student no.: 56325

Supervisor: Tobias Raun

Characters: 170752

Number of Pages: 71

1 Danish Abstract

Dette speciale beskæftiger sig med interkulturel kommunikation og visuel kommunikation

som interessefelter. Følgende projekt har til formål at undersøge hvordan Hollywoods

billedsprog er påvirket af vestlige idéer om raciale kategorier, og hvordan dette opleves og

kommer til udtryk i Hollywood’s repræsentation af ikke-hvide subjekter; people of color.

Specialet tager hensyn til intersektionalitet, hvorfor der tages udgangspunkt i et

multifacetteret teoretisk apparat indeholdende hvidhedsstudier, andetgørelse, performative

race- og kønskonstruktioner, poststrukturalistisk feminisme, samt (film)historiske raciale

repræsentationspraksisser. Undersøgelsen er udført med udgangspunkt i 2 aktuelle filmcases,

der har bidraget til racedebatten i Hollywood, samt 10 kvalitative interviews, der blev

foretaget i Los Angeles med informanter, der tilhører filmbranchen på forskellig vis. Med

hovedvægt på informanternes udsagn i det empiriske materiale konkluderes afslutningsvis, at

Hollywoods raciale repræsentationssystem er baseret på hvidhed og maskulinitet som

normsættende identitetspositioner, hvormed øvrige raciale kategorier automatisk andetgøres

eller udviskes. Det konkluderes at manglende repræsentation eller misrepræsentation i form

af stereotyper, biroller, whitewashing eller blackface, er problematisk. Disse faktorer kan

afføde dårlige jobmuligheder for ikke-hvide i branchen, den manglende mulighed for

identifikation kan føre til lavt selvværd, og potentielt kan racefremstillingerne bidrage til

racisme og sexisme via diskriminerende race- og kønsdiskurser.

Endvidere ses at disse forhold søges opretholdt i branchen med markedsinteresser som

argument - på trods af at nyere forskning peger på det modsatte, nemlig at forbrugerne

foretrækker diversitet, og at dette er mere profitabelt end Hollywoods hidtidige

racerepræsentation. Hollywood må derfor muligvis anlægge et mere nuanceret racesyn i

fremtiden for ikke at miste kritiske filmforbrugerne til andre medier, såsom TV-mediet, hvis

repræsentationer af race ifølge informanterne tegner et væsentligt mere nutidigt,

inkluderende, relaterbart og mangfoldigt billede af den almenmenneskelige erfaring i

Amerika.

2 Table of Contents

Danish Abstract…………………………………………………………………………p. 2

Introduction……………….……………….……………………………………………….………………p. 5

A Note on Intersectionality………….………………….………………….………………….……...... p. 6

Theoretical Foundations…………….……………………………….…………….…………………...... p. 6

Racism and Colorism ………….………………….………………….…..………………...….p. 7-8

Whiteness Studies…………….……………………………….…………….………………...... p. 9-11

Brown Eyes, Blue eyes: An Exercise in Cognitive Dissonance...... p. 11-13

The Other and Its Representations…..…………………………….……………...... …….p. 13-16

Racial Stereotypes...... p. 17-18

Painting Faces and Racial Performances...... p. 19-20

Defiantly Different: Oppositional Gazes as Forms of Resistance ……………...... p. 21-22

Methods…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…...... …..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…..…...p. 22

Qualitative Interviews...... p. 22-23

Reflexivity and Feminist Interview Techniques………….……...... …………….……p.23-27

Recruiting Informants………….………………….………………….………………...... ….…p. 27-29

Conducting the Interviews………….………………….………………….……………...... …p, 29-30

Introduction to Analysis………………. ……………….………………………………….….p. 30-31

First Chapter of Analysis……………….……………….……………….……………….…………....p. 32

“Ghost in the Shell”: A Contemporary Case of Whitewashing………...... ………..p. 32-42

“Nina”: A Contemporary Case of Blackface……………………………….…….....…….p. 42-51

Second Chapter of

Analysis…………………………………………………………………………...... p. 51

Colorism and Racial Performativity……………………………………………….…p. 51-57

Ambiguity: The Benefits and Disadvantages of Being Multiracial…………...... p. 57-62

Playing the Game: Compromising and Contemplating Stereotypes……....p. 62-72

The White Gaze: Racial Bias and the Power of Visual

(Non-)Representation……………….……………………………….…………………...p. 72-80

3 Oppositional Gazes, Spaces for Agency and Possibilities for

Future Change………………………….………………………………….…………….p. 80-88

Conclusion……………….………………………………………....…………………………….…….……p. 89-90

Reference list……………………………….……………………..………….…….…………...p. 91-93

Web Sources……………….……………………………….……...…………...………..….………...p. 94-96

List of Figures……………….……………………………….…..…………..…………....…………p. 96-98

Appendix 1: Danish Communication Article………...……………….………………….…p. 99-101

Appendix 2: Danish Communication Plan…………...…………….………………….….…p. 101-102

Appendix 3: Interview Transcripts………….……..……….………………….……………...p. 102-186

Appendix 4: Log of Ethnographic Notes……...………………….………………….………..p. 187

4 Introduction

After Barack Obama was elected the first black president of the United States in 2008, many

Americans took his accomplishment as a sign of a new post-racial era in American society

(Faegin 2010, Bush 2011). The election of Obama did indeed mark a historical moment, and

while the opportunities for people of color in America may have improved, racial

discrimination, prejudice and inequality have not disappeared. Racial tension still plagues

America, and subjects of equality, race and racial representation are still discussed, perhaps

even more so, now that Donald Trump has been elected president. This paper attempts to

disprove the idea of a post-racial America and shed light on the ways in which racial imagery

is formed and continue to influence lives in American society by investigating how and to what

effect race is represented and communicated by America’s perhaps most influential channel of

visual production - Hollywood cinema.

Thus, a basic assumption throughout this paper is the belief that representational images in

film and popular culture are not sites of neutrality. Dyer wrote that ‘Racial imagery is central

to the organisation of the modern world’ (Dyer 2005: 9), and Dirks & Mueller also point to the

powerful, pedagogical influence of the mainstream:

The power of popular culture lies in its ability to distort, shape, and produce reality,

dictating the ways in which we think, feel, and operate in the social world. (Dirks &

Mueller 2007: 116)

Adopting a similar mindset, I proceed with the following problem statement for my thesis:

In which ways is the contemporary visual media landscape of Hollywood influenced by

Western notions of racial differences, and how does this affect the representation and

experiences of people of color?

5 A Note on Intersectionality

In her research on the role of intersectionality in violence committed against women of color,

critical race scholar Kimberle Crenshaw notes that: ‘[...] the experiences of women of color are

frequently the product of intersecting patterns of racism and sexism’ (Crenshaw 1991: 1243).

She asserts that intersectionality is often forgotten in attempts to politicize either racism or

sexism alone, leading people to believe that experiences of discrimination towards race or

gender are mutually exclusive:

Although racism and sexism readily intersect in the lives of real people, they seldom do in

feminist and antiracist practices. And so, when the practices expound identity as woman

or person of color as an either/or proposition, they relegate the identity of women of

color to a location that resists telling (Crenshaw 1991: 1241).

Though this paper is focused mainly on race, I will strive to keep in mind the intersecting

aspects of identity when interviewing and analyzing the statements of the informants.

Theoretical Foundations

The following sections are meant to foreshadow most of the terms and concepts that will be

unfolded an interplayed throughout the analysis. Since the project takes intersectionality into

account, theoretical works regarding gender and performativity will intertwine with those on

racial relations and representation. Thus, rather than a long-winded theoretical chapter

followed by a redundant analysis, this section of theory will function as a meta chapter

instead, briefly presenting the key concepts that will shape my analysis before putting them to

work.

6 Racism and Colorism

Before venturing into topics of racism and racial categories, I want to stress what is implied by

the term ’race’. While ‘races’ do not exist as biologically different human species, notions of

race are real as these invisible structures have real-life impact on people’s lives:

Although ideas about race are in their rawest forms fictions of our collective

imagination, they have real and meaningful consequences - economic,

psychological and otherwise (Dirks & Mueller 2007: 2)

Race, then, is henceforth understood as a socially constructed phenomenon rather than a

biological phenomenon (Hirschman 2004, Andreassen et. al 2008, Myong 2009).

Sociologist Margaret Hunter describes an often ignored, but important aspect of racial

relations in America. The term, ‘colorism’, is ‘[...] the process of discrimination that privileges

light-skinned people of color over their dark-skinned counterparts’ (Hunter 2007: 237).

Colorism is similar to racism, but tied specifically to skin tone rather than certain racial

category. The notion of light-skinned privilege was informed by slavery and colonialism,

where the white masters would grant lighter-skinned slaves preferential treatment as house

slaves, whereas the darker-skinned slaves would work in the fields (Hunter 2007: 239).

Discrimination based on race or color might appear separately or simultaneously:

Although all blacks experience discrimination as blacks, the intensity of that

discrimination, the frequency, and the outcomes of that discrimination will

differ dramatically by skin tone. Darker-skinned African Americans may earn less money

that lighter-skinned African Americans, although both earn less than whites. These two

systems of discrimination (race and color) work in concert. The two systems are distinct,

but inextricably connected. (Hunter 2007: 238)

7 Hunter also differentiates between two forms of discriminatory behaviour towards skin tone

or racial category; overt and covert forms of discrimination, or: ‘[...] outright acts of

discrimination and subtle cues of disfavor (Hunter 2007: 241). Colorism, it should be noted,

does not exist solely as internalized racism within the black community, it is also practiced by

white people and across all communities of color (Hunter 2007:238). Still, it continues to

subordinate darker-skinned people who do not embody the sought-after, manageable ‘good

hair’ (Robinson 2011) or the ‘white aesthetics (e.g. light hair, straight hair, light eyes, narrow

noses, and light skin)’ (Hunter 2017: 240).

The light-skinned bias is often unconscious because we have grown accustomed to an

iconography of American visual and popular culture that portrays whiteness, light skin and

Eurocentric features as the epitome of beauty and basic humanity (Dyer 2005, Hunter 2007).

Thus, colorism describes an internalized form of racism, a light-skinned bias system in which

people born with lighter skin tones receive light-skinned privilege or even white privilege if

they are able to ‘pass’ as white (Hunter 2005). Though black people are no longer enslaved as

white people’s property, and the contrasting notions of race have transformed, they still

persist and impact the lives of people of color. Racism and colorism have adapted, but not

disappeared, and the idea that people of color are better, more desirable or will have an easier

life if they physically conform to whiteness still persists. The businesses of anti-blackness are

thriving - surgery, skin lightening creams, blue and green contact lenses, hair weaves and

chemicals altering curly, natural hair to make it straighter, assisting people of color in

changing their appearance, adhering to Western or European norms and ideals of beauty, and

thus claiming that conforming to lighter, ‘whiter’ versions of themselves makes them more

beautiful. This message is even received by children of color, who are more likely to pick white

dolls other than an identical, but brown ones, because they equate the light-skinned ones with

positive traits (Preisler 2008).

8 Whiteness Studies

In his writings on racial imagery and whiteness studies, professor Richard Dyer has concluded

that ‘whiteness needs to be made strange’ (Dyer 2005: 12). Through the history and racial

iconography of Western popular culture, Dyer argues that white people have been led to

believe that their whiteness is not racial as such, but rather a neutral position of being. The

privilege of inhabiting a white body thus becomes the privilege of being racially invisible;

protected from judgement and scrutiny by a false assumption that white is somehow the

default (Dyer 2005, Myong 2009). The problem is, he argues, that once whiteness is believed

and perpetuated in society as a norm, white people are believed to embody the purest form of

being ‘simply human’, whereas non-white people are raced, and hereby assumed to be less

human in comparison (Dyer 2005: 9). Not naming or reflecting upon whiteness allows it to

become the yardstick by which all non-white races can be measured:

As the unmarked category against which difference is constructed, whiteness never has to

speak its name, never has to acknowledge its role as an organizing principle in social and

cultural relations (Lipsitz 1995: 1).

The normalization and invisibility of whiteness is extremely powerful - it protects white

people and grants them authority over others:

There is no more powerful position than that of being ‘just’ human. The claim to power is

the claim to speak for the commonality of humanity. Raced people can’t do that - they can

only speak for their race. (Dyer 2005: 9)

Dyer refers to whiteness as ‘the power of invisibility’. The equation of whiteness with

invisibility, is simultaneously a paradoxical metaphor when applied to the realm of visual

culture due to the fact that white people are highly represented Western visual media. Thus,

they are literally visible, represented and seen, but not necessarily seen as being white. In

discussions about racial issues, white people are notorious for claiming to be colorblind,

taking pride in the fact that they don’t ‘see’ race or color, but are merely ‘seeing people’:

9 Color-blind ideology is assumed to be the more progressive stance to race issues,

although it is actually regressive, undermining nonwhite experiences and perpetuating

existing inequalities (Jacobson 2015: 836)

This tendency fits Dyer’s postulate that whiteness is not a site of reflection for the majority of

white people, since being white is rarely an issue for them. Put differently, it seems that white

people have been taught not to see their own race by a society formed to benefit whiteness,

and hereby allowing white people to move more freely and less racially conscious within it.

The sentiment of wanting everyone to get along - however well-meaning - instead ignores

both an important aspect of a person’s identity as well as existing power structures ensuring

that some people can’t just be equal. Structures that ensure that some people are

systematically discriminated against and have less privilege and less power in American

society due to factors of which they have no control, such as their gender, disability, sexuality

or the pigmentation of their skin. Refusing to acknowledge a person’s skin color or ethnic

background in an effort to end racism thus becomes a racist act, as it ignores the status quo

and silences the voices of people of color due to a belief that noticing obvious differences

between people is itself a form of prejudice. Feminist author and activist bell hooks also

discovered that even the most self-proclaimed non-racist white people would often get angry

or feel attacked when they were being racially named or referred to as white:

Often their race erupts because they believe that all ways of looking that highlight

difference subvert the liberal belief in a universal subjectivity (we are all just people) that

they think will make racism disappear. They have a deep emotional investment in the

myth of ‘sameness’, even as their actions reflect the primacy of whiteness as a sign

informing who they are and how they think. (hooks 1992: 167)

Just as gender or sexuality might be an important part of someone’s identity, so is the color of

their skin. Colorblind ideology is indeed an ideology of blindness; its followers reserve the

right to remain oblivious to racial inequalities, pretending to solve the problem of racism by

10 ignoring racial categories and silence racialized minorities altogether.

Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes: An Exercise in Cognitive Dissonance

Following the assassination of Martin Luther King in 1968, Jane Elliott decided to conduct a

racial experiment in her third grade classroom. In an effort to make the children reflect on

racial prejudices and the everyday experiences of racial minorities, she divided her classroom

based on the eye color of her pupils. They were put in either the ‘blue eyes’ or ‘brown eyes’

group, and the brown-eyed group were given privileges, whereas the blue-eyed group were

given disadvantages. Elliott’s ‘Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes’ exercise has since been performed

numerous times with adult participants, and claims to expose racism as ‘an irrational class

system based upon purely arbitrary factors’ (JaneElliott.com). The exercise attempts to create

the experience of being discriminated against based on eye color alone, and some white

people in the blue-eyed group have great difficulty being put in the inferior position, even if

they know that it is an exercise they have subjugated themselves to and that what they

experience is temporary. During one of the filmed exercises that Jane Elliott conducted with

adults, a white woman from the blue-eyed group broke down crying and decided to leave the

room. When she returned, Elliott refused to have her join and resume the exercise with the

rest of the class as a matter of principle:

You don’t come back in here until you’ve apologized to every person in this room, because you just

exercised a freedom that none of these people of color have. When these people of color get tired

of racism they can’t just walk out because there is no place in this country where they aren’t going

to be exposed to racism. They can’t even stay in their own homes and not be exposed to racism if

they turn on the television. But you, as a white female, when you get tired of being judged and

treated unfairly on the basis of your eye color, you can walk out that door and you know it won’t

happen out there.

(How do you identify racism? Video 17:14-17:46)

11 When the woman apologizes for overall racism in the country but refuses to apologize for

walking out herself, Elliott sends her out of the room. During this particular exercise, the white

participants consequently felt unreasonably bullied and picked on, yet still remained reluctant

to view the experiences as realistic forms of racially biased discrimination that people of color

handle on a day-to-day basis, as participants from the brown-eyed group point out. The white

participants had strong emotional responses to the unfair treatment that was part of the

exercise, yet they remained reluctant to acknowledge their own racial privileges. One of the

white women compared a brown man’s story of needing to conform to a white society to her

white ex-husband conforming to his work’s policy on speech, clean-cut grooming standards

and neat clothes (Critical Voices - 32:15-32:40). By comparing fixed physical attributes such as

skin or eye color to varying factors such as clothes or coiffure, she is simultaneously silencing

his experience and failing to see and address race and instances of racial discrimination or

racial privilege. These examples from Elliott’s exercises align with Dyer’s theory on whiteness

as an invisible power, and indicate that white people have been conditioned by this, thus failing

to notice and accept testaments of racial discrimination because it does not affect their own

life. Recognizing that one is receiving preferential treatment as a white person in society is

presumably uncomfortable, because it is simultaneously admitting to yourself that while you

yourself might not be guilty of keeping slaves or colonizing other countries, you have still been

benefitting from its history of violence and oppression, The unwillingness to trade lives with

people of color exhibited by white participants in Elliott’s exercise indicates an underlying

understanding that non-white folks are being treated as a second-class citizens in some cases,

and that white people would not like the same treatment for themselves. And yet, they remain

reluctant to recognize white privilege. This white denial of racism and privileges can also be

regarded as an example of Leon Festingers concept of cognitive dissonance; the mental

pressure arising from simultaneously realizing two conflicting beliefs, or being

12 presented with new information that conflicts with one’s existing belief. According to

Festinger’s theory people will always strive for consistency, attempting to offset or balance the

cognitive dissonance (Festinger 1957: 5). When cognitive dissonance occurs, the individual

has two options for reducing it. This can be done either by accepting the new information and

adapting to it by changing their belief, or by refusing the new information as false and thus not

having to change. If possible, people will generally try to rectify the cognitive dissonance by

refusing the new information rather than accepting it in an effort to protect their own ego and

keep their worldview intact (Festinger 1957: 128). White people claiming not to see race or

racism when presented with it are examples of them refusing the new information that

produces cognitive dissonance within them, and thus not having to change their ways or admit

to benefiting from racist structures in society.

While whiteness has been established as a position of racial privilege, it is important to note

that whiteness as a racial category is not exempt from intersecting with other dimensions of

subjectivity. A white person might still experience discrimination towards other aspects of

their identity, such as gender, religion, sexuality, disabilities or social class.

The Other and Its Representations

Sociologist Stuart Hall’s texts “Representation: Cultural Representations and Signifying

Practices” and“The Spectacle of the Other” poses the main foundation for the terms of

otherness and representation. The other can be seen as a counterpart to the whiteness

described by Dyer. As a vague description of lumped-together racial differences that protects

the invisibility of whiteness, implying that ‘difference’ means ‘different from white’. This view

of race as being either white or non-white automatically positions the white race as primary

and non-white races as secondary, creates an ‘us’ and a ‘them’ believed to be in opposition to

each other and mutually exclusive - a binary understanding of race. It should be noted here,

13 that through the discourse of this paper, I also make use of one such binary, as I examine the

contrasts between representation and experiences of white people and people of color. This

distinction is made because my informants represented different racial backgrounds, but most

importantly, to highlight the different representation, enablements and constraints that are

placed upon non-white folks through an understanding of race as either the primary “white”

or the secondary “other”;

The maintenance of white supremacy (aesthetic, ideological, and material) is predicated

on the notion that dark skin represents savagery, irrationality, ugliness, and inferiority.

White skin, and, thus, whiteness itself, is defined by the opposite: civility, rationality,

beauty, and superiority. (Hunter 2007: 238)

However, as reductive as dichotomies are, they are essential to establishing meaning and

identity, since people tend to define and form an understanding of what something or

someone is in relation to what they are not (Hall 1997, Okolie 2003). Much like how ‘the other’

is constructed against the supposedly neutral category of whiteness, Simone de Beauvoir

noted how women are defined similarly in relation to the supposed neutrality of the male

gender:

Thus humanity is male and man defines woman not in herself but as relative to him; [...]

She is defined and differentiated with reference man and not he with

reference to her; she is the incidental, the inessential as opposed to the essential. He

is the Subject, he is the Absolute - she is the Other. (de Beauvoir in Arrigha 2007: 76)

In line with this project’s influence from post-structuralism, Hall describes an approach to

representation that takes into account the socially constructed quality of language. A

constructionist approach, in which ‘Things don’t mean: we construct meaning, using

representational systems - concepts and signs’ (Hall 1997: 25).

14 Hall asserts that meaning is created not through the material world, but through symbolic

practices:

Constructivists do not deny the existence of the material world. However, it is not the

material world which conveys meaning: it is the language system or whatever system we

are using to represent our concepts. It is social actors who use the conceptual systems of

their culture and the linguistic and other representational systems to construct meaning,

to make the world meaningful and to communicate about that world meaningfully to

others. (Hall 1997: 25)

Hall elaborates linguist scholar Jacques Saussure’s concepts of the signifier - the form - and the

signified - the concept triggered by the form (Hall 1997: 31), as well as Roland Barthes’ similar

semiotics of denotation and connotation. Hall describes how a signifier, such as ‘black’, might

shift itself over time and in different contexts. As signs are arbitrary, meaning is never ‘true’

and fixed by signs eternally, but might become unfixed to mean something different:

[...] each language produces a different set of signifieds; it has a distinctive and

thus arbitrary way of organizing the world intro concepts and categories (Culler

in Hall 1997: 32)

Interpreting Hollywood films as a ‘language’ or a representational system, and its imagery of

racialized bodies as the forms, one can then investigate what kinds of meaning are conveyed

and communicated about people of color, and how these people are organized into categories

by the visual language of Hollywood. One can investigate how racialized bodies ‘[...] are made

to signify through the discourses of exhibition (poetics) and how these practices are inscribed by

relations of power (politics)’ (Hall 1997: 225), Hall argues that similar conditions apply to

representations of race, class, gender, sexuality and disability, or what he calls ‘dimensions of

difference’. The difference of the other, he argues, has both positive and negative connotations,

as it is simultaneously mysterious and intriguing, while also presenting a potential threat, or a

site of the unknown:

15 Marking ‘difference’ leads us, symbolically, to close ranks, shore up culture and to

stigmatize and expel anything which is defined as impure, abnormal. However,

paradoxically, it also makes ‘difference’ powerful, strangely attractive precisely because it

is forbidden, taboo, threatening to cultural order. (Hall 1997: 237)

The colonization of Africa gave rise to a multitude of representational imagery and narratives

in which white men conquer the exotic ‘Other’, appearing in both works of fiction and in

advertisements (Hall 1997: 240). These types of stories are still reproduced, recycled and

sometimes even romanticized in Western popular culture and cinema, such as ‘Pocahontas’

(1995), ‘Avatar’ (2009), ‘The Great Wall’ (2016) and the ‘Indiana Jones’ franchise (1981-2008).

During the times of slavery, Hall describes how representations of racial ‘difference’ portrayed

black people as lazy, primitive and uncultured compared to white people, who were believed

to be more civilized (Hall 1997: 244). The racial differences were articulated and believed to

be natural as opposed to cultural, and thus inherent, non-negotiable and unchangeable (Hall

1997: 245). Believed to be less culturally refined, black people were seen and visually

represented as savages driven by nature and instinct and therefore unable to adhere to

civilized codes of conduct. Thus, representational practices are encoding specific meaning into

specific racial categories:

These controlling images are designed to make racism, sexism, poverty, and other forms of injustice appear to be natural, normal, and inevitable parts of everyday life (Collins 2001: 69).

16 Racial stereotypes

In American popular culture, specifically in the history of Hollywood cinema, non-white

characters have repeatedly been represented by predominantly negative stereotypes, which

evidently date back to the racist and sexist history of colonization and the slavery in America

(Hall 1997, Freydberg 2004). Stereotypes can be defined as: '[...] an imitation, a copy of

something or someone that is, by means of the media machinery, held up first as the symbol or

symbols to the exclusion of others; and then repeatedly channeled out to viewers so often that in

time it becomes a “common” representation of something or someone in the minds of viewers.'

(Blackwood 1986: 205)

They exist as both positive and negative qualities or traits. For instance, Stuart Hall describes

how black people were simultaneously stereotyped in a positive and negative manner during

slavery in America. While on one hand they were degraded and regarded and as lazy, primitive

and lesser than their white masters, other idealized images of the black slave existed, such as

the faithful domestic servant, ‘the mammy’ (Hall 1997; 245). In Hollywood, the character of

the mammy was portrayed as a matronly and nurturing black woman who found pride and

happiness in her domestic servitude of white households. Despite these positive traits,

however, she was still regarded as inferior to white people, and often represented as

physically undesirable and non-threatening compared to the perceived greater beauty,

nobility and purity of the white woman.

In Hollywood cinema, non-white female characters’ bodies and behaviour were routinely

either desexualized and subordinated in roles of maids and mammies serving white masters,

or on the contrary, shown as hypersexualized, promiscuous and seductive based on their

ethnicity and the color of their skin. The idea that black women were naturally more sexual

17 than white women was a convenient ‘truth’ for white masters during slavery; when white men

raped black women to produce more slaves, these assaults could be justified and legitimized

by the postulate that the women had seduced them due to their racially inherent animalistic

urges and promiscuity (Freydberg 2004: 266-267).

Thus, stereotypes hold power - the continuous, negative imagery of specific groups can

perpetuate harmful ideas in societies, oppressing certain groups for the benefit of others:

[...] negative stereotyping fulfils a social function: it is through stereotype that the ruling

majority rationalizes its maltreatment of people whom it has designated as inferior.

(Freydberg 2004: 265)

In addition, the use of stereotypes in fictional works, whether they be positive or negative,

creates less nuanced characters and a narrower understanding of the stereotyped group, their

actions and emotions (Freydberg 2004: 265). In a sense the group is dehumanized, since

stereotyped characters do not portray whole people with emotional depth and motivations of

their own; rather, they become a caricature of whichever group they belong to. Thus, the use

of racialized stereotypes in cinema and television can potentially maintain existing power

structures and preconceived notions about race. When the media communicates specific racial

groups as possessing negative, undesirable traits, it could be aiding the preservation of racism

and societal conflicts based on racial and social injustice.

In Hollywood cinema women of color have a long history of being represented as the exotic or

primitive ‘Other’, as objects to engage and entice the (white) male gaze and sexual fantasy,

while simultaneously not being regarded as serious love interests or marriage-potential for

the white male protagonist (Freydberg 2004: 268).

18 Painting Faces and Racial Performances

Blackface refers to the practice of painting an actor’s face dark in an effort to make them

resemble a black person. Though blackface refers specifically to imitating people of African

descent, the same practice is used to resemble other races - yellowface, for instance, is a

similar gesture, using prosthetics and makeup with the intent of looking Asian. An early

example of blackface is D.W. Griffith’s film ‘The Birth of a Nation’ (1915) from the silent movie

era - a film simultaneously praised for its innovative cinematic style and widely critiqued for

its racist portrayals and its glorification of the Ku Klux Klan. In the film, white male actors

donned blackface for their roles as black people, and are portrayed as lewd and sexually

aggressive (Freydberg 2004: 268).

Some examples of black- or yellowface are of a mocking nature and intended for comedic

effect - like Mickey Rooney as the buck-toothed, hot-tempered Mr. Yunioshi in ‘Breakfast at

Tiffany’s’ (1961) - while others appear to be a way of casting a popular white actor for a non-

white role - such as Katharine Hepburn as the wise, headstrong Jade in ‘Dragon Seed’ (1944).

Both of these examples are instances of yellowface, and both are equally ‘othering’ and

stereotypical in their portrayals of Asians on screen; the former a mocking, abnormal racial

caricature, the latter appropriating desirable or perceived traits of honorable Asian culture

without honoring an actual Asian woman.

Whatever the initial intent was, practices like these serve to reduce entire races to

stereotypical looks or mannerisms, and either perform people of color for white

entertainment or prevent them from the opportunity of playing a role they could have

otherwise played. These practices of (non)representation beg the question: why do white

creators and audiences have the desire to tell and consume stories about people of color and

19 other cultures, but not the desire to represent them? In the words of Danielle Dirks and

Jennifer Mueller, ‘a white thirst for blackness that seems unquenchable’ is reflected in American

popular culture (Dirks & Mueller 2007: 115). A similar paradoxical phenomenon is presented

by other acts of cultural appropriation, when white people use symbols from other cultures

seemingly without knowledge of the history or meaning behind them; donning bindis,

dreadlocks or Native American headdress either as costume or fashion accessories. Acts like

these imply a preoccupation, fascination and exotification of non-white people’s cultures,

symbols, rituals or values, but not necessarily a value of the people or communities of color

themselves.

In entertainment whiteness can also be performed by applying white makeup to appear

Caucasian or lighter skinned, or perhaps more commonly as enactments of whiteness through

certain speech, movements and mannerisms. Comedian Eddie Murphy often practices

impersonations of whiteness as part of his act (Foster 2003: 4), putting on a voice or accent,

certain facial expressions and body movements to create a character understood by audiences

as white, even though he himself is black. When the Wayans brothers donned both drag and

white makeup in the 2004 comedy ‘White Chicks’, they were performing race as well. Their

‘whiteface’ and performing of whiteness in question, however, does not have the same history

and racist implications as whites performing in blackface, since white people as a whole have

never been routinely oppressed by any other group. Rather than being racist, people of color

performing whiteness and wearing whiteface could also be seen as social commentary.

20 Defiantly Different: Oppositional Gazes as Forms of Resistance

In her text “The Oppositional Gaze” bell hooks (her pen name deliberately spelled with

lowercase letters) takes her point of departure in the times of slavery, and how black slaves

were denied the right to look. Deciding to stare anyway, regardless of impending punishment,

presented a small opportunity of having agency as a black person. The act of looking, hooks

argues, thus holds power and can be an act of resistance:

[...] all attempts to repress our/black people’s right to gaze had produced in us an

overwhelming longing to look, a rebellious desire, and oppositional gaze. By courageously

looking, we defiantly declared: “Not only will I stare. I want my look to change reality”.

(hooks 1992: 116)

Black men looking at white women has previously been considered an act of both

disobedience and sexual violence in American society, as black men were thought to ‘rape’

white women with their gazes (hooks 1992: 118). When white women were depicted in

cinema, however, the black male gaze could fixate on them without the threat of punishment.

hooks articulates how black spectatorship differed immensely according to gender, that a

black female spectatorship was long absent, because the visual pleasure of gazing upon the

image of white women still catered to a straight male desire, or a ‘male gaze’, as suggested by

Laura Mulvey (Mulvey 1999). White women were portrayed as the primary object of male

sexual and romantic desire, the ‘object of the phallocentric gaze’ (hooks 1992: 119). For this

reason, white women have indeed been - and often still are - positioned as inferior to men by

being female objects for the gaze of an implicit male subject. However, compared to their

sisters of color, white women ‘have the privilege of a more diverse palette of images’

(Freydberg 2004: 268).

In both ‘black’ and ‘white’ cinema, the representation of black women have been equally

absent or stereotypical; and hollow or derogatory images of the black woman was exploited

by both black and white men:

21 White males more often than not cast Black women primarily as concubines,

prostitutes and superbitches, achieving monetary success from the films. Black men,

portraying pimps and pushers, exploited, brutalized and destroyed their Black women

on the silver screen for all to see, even though for many it was a one-film deal.

(Freydberg 2004: 276)

According to bell hooks, mass media was, and possibly still is, ‘[...] a system of knowledge and

power reproducing and maintaining white supremacy’ (hooks 1992: 117). According to hooks,

white people have created mainstream media in their own image, hereby subconsciously

granting images of whiteness their perceived essential quality, rather than a racialized quality.

Employing ‘white representations of blackness’ (hooks 1992: 117) in addition to

overwhelmingly white stars. Hollywood cinema is illustrative of Western white hegemony, as

white people ‘construct the world in their own image (Dyer 2005: 12). Thus, ‘Hollywood has

never been apolitical’ (Freydberg 2004: 282) or unbiased in terms of racial representation.

Methods

Qualitative interviews

This thesis attempts to investigate Hollywood’s system of racial representation based on

specific film cases and contemporary, personal accounts from people of color on their

experiences. An investigation of the latter calls for a method of generating data that is

subjective, personal and detailed. Therefore, I have chosen a qualitative approach to collecting

empirical data rather than a quantitative method. Based on the existing works on racial

representation that I am consulting throughout this paper, I would argue that there is already

substantial evidence that certain modes of racial representation have appeared repeatedly.

Thus, the next portion of this paper does not investigate representation in numbers. In cases

where statistics are relevant, other quantitative studies are occasionally consulted, such as

“The Hollywood Diversity Report”.

My own study, however, focuses on how racial representations are intrinsically felt and lived

22 by the informants.

A qualitative method enables the informants to deliver complex statements and to further

elaborate on these, whereas quantitative methods, such as surveys, generate more statistical

forms of data (Silverman 2006: 41). The semi-structured interview, as described by Steinar

Kvale and Svend Brinkmann, is a method through which the researcher attempts to collect

descriptions of the informants’ life-worlds, subsequently interpreting the meaning of these

descriptions (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 19). Such an approach could be tied to the paradigme

of phenomenology, since it revolves around first-hand experiences from the life world of the

informants (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 45). However, due to additional reflexive methodology

approaches, and a theoretical background that relies mainly on post-structuralist scholars,

such as whiteness studies, I would argue that my readings of the empirical data will also be

informed by post-structuralism and the conviction that categories such as race or gender are

socially constructed and upheld by hegemonic systems of power (Stormhøj 2010, Andreassen

et. al 2008). Applying a post-structuralist mindset, this project is concerned with investigating

questions of race politics, power and agency in relation to being a person of color in

Hollywood.

Reflexivity and Feminist Interview Techniques

[...] feminists have brought forward a wealth of previously untold stories - those of

marginalized peoples and also those that the more privileged have kept hidden [...]

(DeVault & Gross 2012: 206)

In addition to Steinar Kvale and Svend Brinkmann’s approach of the semi-structured,

qualitative interview, I found it relevant to include feminist interview techniques by which I

work reflexively and remain mindful of my own position in relation to that of the informant

(Hesse-Biber 2006: 128, DeVault & Gross 2012: 207). Sharlene Hesse-Biber argues that a

simple view of interviews [...] neglects the dynamics of power involved in any empirical research

23 (Hesse-Biber 2006: 206), and claims that a feminist perspective by nature considers the

underlying power structures between researcher and respondent in the interview situation,

attempts to discover lived experiences of oppressed groups and promote social justice (Hesse-

Biber 2006: 117). Since the subject of investigation center around topics inseparable with

dynamics of power, such as racial representation and discrimination, I found it of paramount

importance to consider my own positionality within the interview situation. Beyond the

cognition that an interview situation by design is not equal, as it is controlled by the

researcher (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 19), I would need to remain cognizant that I, too, am

raced, that I have the privilege of being white in the Western world and that due to the violent

history of white supremacy in America, it is impossible for me to remain neutral in a

conversation about race, as race is ‘never not a factor, never not in play’ (Dyer 2005: 9). Thus,

preparing a situation in which I as a middle-class white woman would ask people of color

personal questions about racial relations, requiring them to share potential vulnerable details

with me, could prove problematic if not executed right. For these reasons, I oppose the idea of

a neutral researcher, and proceed instead with the belief that knowledge is constructed

through the communicational interplay between researcher and informant (Haraway 1998:

587, Silverman, 2006: 112, Kvale & Brinkmann 2015: 63), yet it is also informed by the social

and societal contexts that each of us inhabit. Working within a post-structuralist frame

naturally requires ‘acute reflexivity’ by which the researcher remains reflexive of not only

their position, but also the versions of reality that are constructed through their own writing

(Gannon & Davies 2006: 73). These overall notions contribute to inform my further readings

of the empirical data extracted by the informants.

In regards to being mindful of my own position, I also drew inspiration from feminist

sociologist Ann Oakley. She argues that most conventional methods of interviewing cater to a

traditionally masculine set of values, while they consequently miss out on the benefits of

utilizing traditionally feminine values; they advise against the interviewer sharing or being

personable with the informants, believing the display of emotion as degenerate and

24 detrimental to ‘proper science’ (Oakley 1981: 40). When she interviewed women for a study

on motherhood, she discovered that she had difficulty remaining in the position of the neutral

researcher:

My difficulties in interviewing women were of two main kinds. First, they asked

me a great many questions. Second, repeated interviewing over this kind of period and

involving the intensely personal experiences of pregnancy, birth and motherhood,

established a rationale of personal involvement I found it problematic and ultimately

unhelpful to avoid. (Oakley 1981: 42)

Rather than ‘objectifying her sister’ (ibid: 41) through the traditional, impersonal approach to

interviewing, she discovered that she was able to build rapport with the informants by defying

the textbook rules and sharing aspects of her personality by adopting the mindset: ‘no

intimacy without reciprocity’ (Oakley 1981: 49). As both a woman and a feminist, she was

recognized by her informants as part of their ‘sisterhood’, and thus they felt more inclined to

divulge information of a very personal, intimate nature. While Ann Oakley’s interview

techniques were conceived through female, feminist interviewing of female (and possibly

feminist) informants, I believe that her feminist approach can function when interviewing

other marginalized or minority groups about emotional topics as well. I thus adopt a position

of intersectional feminism, by which I do not consider contemporary feminism a struggle for

gender equality alone, but a struggle for equality, recognizing the importance of other social

power hierarchies than that of gender alone (Crenshaw 1991, Collins 2001). And like gender,

race constitutes one such social power hierarchy; one that I cannot disengage myself from. I

found that combining semi-structured interview elements promoted by Kvale & Brinkmann

with the awareness of power hierarchies and personal involvement promoted by the feminist

scholars, proved effective and allowed me to build rapport with the informants, framing the

interview situation as more of a conversation. Thus, I believed that this combination allowed

the informants to perceive me as genuinely curious about their experiences rather than an

impersonal researcher who mechanically viewed them as racialized objects of study:

25 If the interviewee doesn’t believe he/she is being kindly and sympathetically treated by

the interviewer, then he/she will not consent to being studied and will not come up with

the desired information. (Oakley 1981: 33)

I believed it to be counterproductive, reproducing the problematic idea of whiteness as a

position of neutrality, if the informants perceived me as someone uninformed and ignorant of

my own racial position while studying them as if they were exotic creatures. Not believing or

pretending to know the racial struggles of the people of color I interviewed, I instead chose to

share or speak about cases of imbalanced racial representations that sparked my interest for

writing this thesis, or show understanding or compassion towards their lived experiences

within the areas of discrimination to which I could relate, such as instances of sexism or

misogyny. With some informants, either prior, during or after the interview, I would talk

about racial relations in a Danish context, where whiteness is still usually implied as norm

when speaking about ‘Danishness’ (Myong 2009: 243), but terms and conditions of ‘race’ are

less discussed in favor of the term ‘ethnic’, which is often used as a vague, umbrella-like and

etymologically incorrect term to describe people who are ‘non-white’ or not (presumed to be)

born in Denmark (Andreassen et al. 2008, Andreassen & Ahmed 2014). Put simply, white

Danish people seem to shy away from discussing race in favor of using the word ‘ethnicity’, but

fail to realize that ‘ethnic’ is not equivalent to ‘other’, but applies to all people, including

themselves. In doing so, I wanted to stress that I was informed about racial matters, while also

stressing that I was from Scandinavia, a context in which these matters might take a different

form. As Hesse-Biber puts it, I am mindful of being both an “insider” and an “outsider” (Hesse-

Biber 2006: 114); I might share certain aspects of lived experiences with some informants

while simultaneously, I am a researcher searching for information, investigating a realm of

experience which I do not inhabit. I found that the feminist interview techniques established

my position as an ally as well as a researcher, made the informants less likely to be skeptical of

my intentions and enabled them to talk more freely about topics or experiences that might be

uncomfortable or difficult to disclose and discuss - the informants Angela and Marie, for

26 example, both spontaneously shared personal stories about experiences with overt racism in

their daily lives.

I have included Mats Alvesson’s metaphors for a reflexive approach to the interview situation,

since they take into account factors such as the framing of questions and answers, power

dynamics, performing oneself favorably or certain cultural scripts that might be at play in the

conversation – all of which can blur the transferability of the data if answers are considered

factual truths (Alvesson 2003: 14-15). In the analysis chapter, l will unfold the metaphors that

hold relevance to specific interview statements. Finally, it should be noted that the

information and views voiced by the informants do not necessarily reveal absolute truths, but

rather they convey complex, first-hand experiences and insights into the American film

industry and American society, and what it means to be a person of color within it.

Recruiting Informants

Choosing the combination of semi-structured interview methods with feminist methods, I had

to recruit informants who might best provide insight into the problematic field of racial

representation within Hollywood. I decided to travel to the US to pursue local informants; I

went there in search of people who were situated in the American context, who knew the

inner workings of Hollywood, who were immersed in its racial imagery, and who might

therefore be affected directly by its visual culture. Since I went abroad to conduct the

interviews and thus immersed myself in a context culturally and politically different from

Denmark, I found it relevant to take observational field notes while ‘on location’ (see Appendix

4). Thus, I add a small, auto-ethnographic layer to my empirical data. I am aware that logging

my personal observations and thoughts presents a subjective view of the field I attempt to

analyze, and therefore, I refer to them sparingly whenever they can be related to the

statements of the informants. The auto-ethnographic approach, however, does in fact value

forging the researcher’s experience and reflections with the object of study, asserting that this

method can grant a certain ‘strength’ to the study and allow the researcher to dive even

27 deeper into her field of interest (Baarts et. al 2010: 154-155). Incidentally, the annual Oscar

ceremony took place during my stay in Los Angeles, and the current case of the progressive

black indie film “Moonlight” winning ‘Best Picture’ added another layer of actuality to the

interview conversations about people of color in Hollywood.

Some informants were recruited through personal connections prior to my departure, mostly

through contacts from the Copenhagen Film Festivals circuit. I was an intern for six months at

a film festival as part of my master’s studies in Communications and Performance Design, and

am currently working with the festival as a programme assistant. My position with the film

festival has allowed me to broaden my film network internationally, and helped me secure

contacts in Los Angeles that I could interview. Upon arriving in the US, the interviewed

informants then each recommended other informants from their professional networks - also

known as ‘the snowballing method’ (Russell 2006: 192). This approach was chosen because it

granted me access to a variety of people I would presumably not have been able to locate

otherwise, and because it allowed for intersectionality among informants rather than focusing

on a single group. Thus, the informants represent different races or ethnicities, sexualities,

genders, ages, religious views and occupations - their uniting factor is that they are all

employed within the film and television industry or work with film as a communicative

medium. They are directors, producers, screenwriters, screening organizers and actors, and

they are located and working within Hollywood. The state of California and the city of Los

Angeles in particular is known for its ethnic and racial diversity, and I believe the informants

mirror this context and its diverse ethnic makeup quite well.

In the American context, both the overall racial debate and the studies of whiteness have

focused primarily on the binary racial relations of black versus white. This paper attempts to

branch out from a racial perspective that is solely black or white, and include other racial

positions that are affected by white normality, such as the experiences of being mixed-race or

Asian American in a predominantly white Hollywood. I would have preferred to include more

perspectives on especially Native American, Middle Eastern and Latinx experiences, but was

28 unable to locate enough informants representing these positions. A few of the informants who

described themselves as mixed-race did have Native American or Latin heritage, but were

either too few or identified more with other aspects of their ethnic and racial background for

different reasons.

Conducting the Interviews

The semi-structured interview shares similarities with an everyday conversation, yet it is a

‘pseudo-conversation’ (Oakley 1981: 32)- it has specific purpose and structure and was

conducted with a written guide containing key questions and themes for the interview, by

which I framed the setting (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 45). Rather than slavishly following the

order of the interview guide, however, I followed the informants’ flow of conversation, seeing

if they might cover the subjects themselves automatically. They also talked about subjects that

I had not anticipated and planned beforehand, such as the puzzling and paradoxical

experience of being mixed-race in Hollywood.

In order to create a comfortable space for the informants to share their emotions and personal

experiences, Kvale and Brinkmann highlight the importance of active listening and briefing the

informants beforehand (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 148-149). I was careful to obtain informed

consent prior to meeting and interviewing, making sure that each informant knew the overall

purpose of the interview, consented to having their voice recorded, and informed them of

their right to remain anonymous and confidential if their statements could in any way impact

their lives negatively (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 89). Before each interview, I briefly explained

the intent and course of the interview whilst reassuring the informants that they were experts

on their own truths. During the end of each interview, I also strived to debrief the informant,

allowing for any final comments they might want to add, as also advised by Kvale and

Brinkmann (Kvale & Brinkmann 2009: 149).

29 The majority of interviews were conducted face to face, although a few informants were too

busy to meet or out of the country, so they opted for written responses via Messenger or e-

mail instead. Since ensuring the comfortability of the informants is paramount to the

interview situation, most of the interviews took place in their own homes, or a setting that

was familiar to them, such as a café of their choosing. The average interview had a duration of

1 hour and the audio of the conversations was recorded, then later transcribed. Through the

process of transcription I discovered various recurrent and unifying themes, which will be

elaborated and unfolded in the analysis. The transcripts are available in the appendix (see

Appendix 3). In the analysis chapter I will reference direct, longer statements from the

empirical data as follows; the name of the informant followed by the page number of the

transcript where the exact quote can be found. For example: ”(Dominique, p90)”. If I quote

informants indirectly, a larger number of informants have used the same common descriptor

about a certain phenomenon or if they agree or disagree on an issue I will reference their

specific names separated by commas after describing the circumstance that they agree or

disagree on, like so: ”All Asian informants agreed that X (Marie, Blake, Selena)”.

In addition to the interviews, I have also chosen two film cases for analysis - “Ghost in the

Shell” and “Nina”. I have chosen these specific cases because the films are current examples

that inspired racial debate, and because they illustrate two different forms of racial erasure

from cinema. In this first chapter of the analysis, I will focus on the debate around these films

and include other cultural sources alongside my own empirical material, such as professional

interviews and critics from news media or Twitter. This is done in an effort to sketch the

cultural controversy and interact critically with the debate around each film.

Introduction to Analysis

The analysis chapter is divided into two main sub-chapters. The first part of the analysis

consists of two contemporary film cases that sparked polemic and discussions about the

erasure of people of color in Hollywood films by using whitewashing (“Ghost in the Shell”) and

30 blackface (“Nina”). The second part takes its point of departure in the conducted interviews

and is divided into different sections focusing on specific cases, tendencies or recurring

themes from the empiric material that held significance across all or a specific identifiable

subcategory of informants, such as 'black females', 'mixed-race actors' or 'people of color'.

Therefore, some sections will focus mainly on topics associated with actors or creators of

color and their experiences, while others include more viewpoints from the white informants

who were generally more likely to be employed behind the camera as decision-makers in the

process of cinematic representation rather than acting as spectacles within it. Throughout the

analysis, statements from the informants of color are granted the most attention and visibility,

partly because they were the most detailed, strongly felt and relevant to the topic, partly to

consciously avoid reproducing a hegemonic racial power structure by presenting a mainly

white perspective on how non-white racial categories are portrayed and experienced. I have

chosen to include rather long direct quotations in cases where I found the whole statement

poignant or necessary, whereas other times, I have cited shorter phrases or single, descriptive

words that the informants used.

Finally, it is important to note that any conclusions based on the findings in this material are

rooted in the subjective experiences and personal points of view of the informants rather than

a general, objective truth on the matters discussed. However, as I will argue in the analysis, the

empirical data also provide a small window of insight into lived experiences, and that can be

said to reflect general discursive tendencies and conditions of possibility surrounding people

of color in the American film industry and perhaps in American society at large.

31 First Chapter of Analysis

“Ghost in the Shell”: A Contemporary Case of Whitewashing

Originally a Japanese manga and anime franchise, the story of “Ghost in the Shell” is a science

fiction story that takes place in a futuristic cyberpunk metropolis. The Hollywood film “Ghost

in the Shell” (2017) by Rupert Sanders is a live action adaptation of the Japanese animated

film from 1995 bearing the same name. To clear up any confusion regarding the titles, the

2017 version is the object of interest in this paper. Henceforth, the title “Ghost in the Shell”

will therefore refer to the contemporary American film starring Scarlett Johansson as

protagonist Major Motoko Kusanagi - unless otherwise specified. While not a direct

filmatization of the original 1995 anime, “Ghost in the Shell” anno 2017 takes place in a

similar storyworld and references its precursor heavily in terms of story, title and practically

identical shot-to-shot sequences (see fig 1 and 2).

Fig. 1 Motoko. Still from “Ghost in the Shell” (1995).

32

Fig 2. Scarlett Johansson as Major Motoko. Still from “Ghost in the Shell” (2017).

Sanders’ “Ghost in the Shell” has received much criticism since Scarlett Johansson was

announced to play the lead; the critics regarded this as a whitewashing of the original

Japanese story. Many Asian-American actors, writers or public figures also voiced their

opinions on social media sites such as Twitter, calling into question a white woman being

named ‘Motoko’ and whether or not any Asian stars were ever contacted or even considered

for the role.

33

Fig 3. Pop culture writer Clara Mae critiques the whitewashing of “Ghost in the

Shell”.

Fig 4. Comic book writer Jon Tsuei critiques the whitewashing of “Ghost in the

Shell”.

34 It seemed to many critics and fans of the franchise that adapting the Japanese cult classic had

presented an obvious opportunity for Asian or Asian American actresses to play a complex

lead character. However, when Scarlett Johansson was cast as the lead, many fans were angry,

offended or disappointed that a beloved story had been overtaken and turned into yet another

example of whitewashing, erasing Asian people from an originally Asian franchise. In an

interview with CNET Magazine director Sanders himself talked about the innate Japaneseness

of the original work and how he wanted to pay homage to it in his adaptation:

The original is very cerebral. And its pace is not only very anime, it's Japanese. It has a

kind of stillness and quietness to it, and it has space to it. [...] I wanted to do it justice. It's

a cherished part of my visual evolution growing up, and I really wanted to make sure that

[the movie] could be the same. That it could be as remarkable now in the cinema as it was

in the mid-'90s when it was first released upon the world. (Ng 2017)

When asked about his response to the whitewashing accusation, however, he insisted that

Scarlett Johansson was the best choice for the role:

I stick behind my decision to cast the actress I felt was best in the role. I feel that she

channeled the Major better than anyone else I could have thought of. She was my

first choice and remains my first choice. She's the best actress of my generation and her

generation, and the person I felt most embodied the physicality and the ability to inhabit

that role. The world we've created is a parallel world. It's a global world. "Ghost in the

Shell" inhabits a very multicultural, multiethnic and diverse landscape. I think it's very

authentic. (Ng 2017)

Representatives of Hollywood arguing that the depiction shown is ‘realistic’ (Dempsey &

Gupta 1982: 68) or referring to the superior talent of the chosen white star are both common

reasons given for defending stereotyping or whitewashing, and one could hardly argue against

Johansson’s amount of talent. Still, it is unlikely that there are no proficient Asian American

35 actresses to be found, and the fact that he considers a white protagonist an ‘authentic’ choice

for a ‘multiethnic and diverse landscape’ seems almost contradictory. Scarlett Johansson

herself has responded that she did not find her character offensive, but rather saw an

opportunity to play an interesting female character:

Diversity is important in Hollywood, and I would never want to feel like I was playing a

character that was offensive [...] Also, having a franchise with a female protagonist

driving it is such a rare opportunity. (Alexander 2017)

Both Johansson’s and Sanders’ arguments fail to recognize the core problem that the critics

are addressing. The criticism was not that the character itself was offensive, as Johansson

suggested, but rather that it was a long awaited multi-faceted character that an Asian actress

could have had a rare chance of playing. Due to the classical anime style of drawing, one could

argue that the original character of the franchise is not decidedly Asian, as she is drawn in the

general anime style that assumes no clear ethnicity or defining racial characteristics.

Characters are typically drawn with large eyes, a small, pointy nose and light skin and

therefore, it could be argued the character looks European, but by that logic she could equally

be considered East Asian with her light skin tone and black hair. Despite the ambiguous or

non-existing racial category behind the classic anime look, her name and the setting still

implies that she is Japanese.

36

Fig 5. Major Motoko Kusanagi in “Ghost in the Shell” 1995.

Rupert Sanders adopted certain recognizable Asian aspects of the original work, such as the

Japanese name of the protagonist, and the story’s setting similar to that of the franchise and

the cyberpunk film “Blade Runner” (1982); a futuristic metropolis inspired by Asian

cityscapes such as Tokyo or Hong Kong. Scarlett Johansson is also made to look like the

original character portrayed with sleek black hair rather than her natural blonde wavy hair.

Signifiers of Asian culture and ethnicity therefore seem easily depicted and adopted in the

remake, while an Asian actor as the protagonist is not.

Scarlett Johansson also explained how the role of Motoko was a rare opportunity for a woman

to be at the forefront of a major franchise, but voices no concern that for an Asian woman in

America, it is perhaps even more so. Here, Johansson uses feminism as an argument, but it is

white feminism, as it deflects the issue at hand, pointing only to discrimination based on

gender while ignoring discrimination based on race. Scarlett Johansson does not take into

account that while she may have odds against her in an industry that is predominantly male,

as a white actress, she still statistically has more opportunities than her female colleagues of

color. In her explanation, the issues of race are downplayed in the name of feminism, but a

37 view of feminism that is seemingly not concerned with the intersectionality of race. A logic

that ‘privileges sexual difference actively suppresses recognition of race [...] silencing any

discussions on racial difference - of racialized sexual difference’ (hooks 1992: 123)

The same has been said for white actress Tilda Swinton who used white feminism similarly to

defend why she played a genderswapped Himalayan monk in Marvel’s “Dr. Strange” (2016)

(Prois 2016). Thus, white women and self-proclaimed feminists often practice a form of

‘loving, knowing ignorance’ (Ortega 2006: 58) towards women of color by subtly reasserting

their power of whiteness and racial invisibility. In the words of Audre Lorde, the white

feminist is ‘so enamored by her own oppression that she cannot see her heelprint upon another

woman’s face’ (Lorde 1984: 123). White feminism, it should be noted, is not defined as an

overt orientation or a branch of feminism that one might consciously or willingly ascribe to.

Rather, the term has been used as a critique, calling out white women who claim to be

feminist, but are counterproductively contributing to the white patriarchy by failing to take

their own white privilege and other intersections of identity into consideration. As Vron Ware

puts it, '[…] white feminists have managed to avoid dissecting these cultural and racial

components of white femininity' (Ware 1992: 85). In doing so, they are using ‘the master’s

tools’ from Audre Lorde’s famous quote, reasserting structures that continue to exclude

people of color, rather than using their privileged position to fight for change and equality on

behalf of those less privileged:

For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us

temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring

about genuine change. (Lorde 1984: 112)

This blindness towards the racial privileges that come with inhabiting a white body

exemplifies Richard Dyer’s theory on whiteness as the invisible and racially unnamed, the

perception of absolute humanity or ‘the norm, ordinary, the standard’ (Dyer 2005: 11). By not

including a perspective on racial difference, Swinton and Johansson claim to speak and stand

38 up for “women” although they are subconsciously only speaking and standing up for

representations of “white women”.

Rupert Sanders argued that the futuristic world in his “Ghost in the Shell” is a multi-ethnic

one, yet stands firm on his casting of a Caucasian actress as the leading protagonist of such a

world. The most important point that neither of them addresses, however, is that this is not a

unique case. When both actors and directors continue to ignore the long history of Asian

erasure in Hollywood, a film like “Ghost in the Shell” - despite its potential to do the exact

opposite - contributes to it; it becomes yet another example of whitewashing, subliminally

perpetuating the message that Asian characters are not relatable to white people as complex

individuals, not even if an Asian storyworld is. I asked all of the informants about this type of

casting, but were especially interested in hearing from the Asians actors as some of them

could potentially have played this character or seen it go to a white person instead:

My gut reaction is to be upset about it. [...] I think it’s sad that people think that an Asian

person can’t carry a film. (Marie, p134).

It communicates that they still think that they are in some ways more superior or a

colored man or woman cannot possible do a job as well as a white person can.

(Blake, p130)

[...] we are not a part of the narrative within the fantasy world that movies create

for us. We imagine in whiteness, we see white heroes, white protagonists, white leading

ladies; and maybe most people don't notice immediately. But on a subconscious level we

notice a loss of representation. (Selena, p156)

These statements from the informants indicate that the industry not only tends to expect

white spectatorship, but also presumes to cater to this perceived audience by almost

39 exclusively representing white characters - ‘imagining in whiteness’, as Selena noted. In doing

so, white people are presented as the most engaging and most human group, which

automatically positions people of color as the other, less universally relatable form of

humanity:

Western society continually espouses the need for universality in art. But this has become

an excuse to give the public a homogenized universality that appeals solely to White

people (Freydberg 2004: 282)

Ali had heard of “Ghost in the Shell” and knew that Scarlett Johansson was headlining it, but

did not know of the casting controversy and racial tensions surrounding the film. Upon

learning about the Japanese origin of the story, he said:

I didn’t realize that the story had so much Asian origin. [Pauses] They probably should

have cast an Asian. I mean, you see the returns for ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ and

some of the Asian characters involved in the ‘Fast and Furious’ franchise, it becomes

pretty obvious that Asians do great in terms of carrying a film in Hollywood. I didn’t

realize the Asian roots that that story had, and I think there’s plenty of Asian actresses

that could probably have taken it on. (Ali, p119).

This poses another interesting problematic aspect of whitewashing surrounding not the

actors of color and their possibilities, but the story itself. If people are unable to notice that a

narrative is being whitewashed, the story is assumed to be “white” and the original might fade

away as Hollywood in a sense takes credit for an Asian storyworld by re-imagining and re-

appropriating it as white.

Among the informants, regardless of their racial background, there is a general agreement that

whitewashing is a problem in the industry, but that while it may seem to be a conscious, racist

40 effort to ostracize people of color from film, most informants believe capitalism to be the main

motivation behind it. When asked about “Ghost in the Shell” and Scarlett Johansson being cast

as the lead, informants point to her ‘star power’ (Dominique, p132), her being ‘stunning’ (Ali,

p119), the fact that Hollywood is a ‘business’ (Blake, Travis) and that she is a recognizable

name anywhere, whereas an Asian actress might only be recognizable in Asia (Travis, p105).

As Blake puts it, casting Scarlett Johansson ‘[...] is the obvious business choice’ (Blake, p129)

even if it is racially problematic. Like in Clara Mae’s tweet, Travis immediately has a specific

Asian actress in mind that could have replaced Scarlett Johansson in the role of Motoko, and

suggests Chinese actress Zhang Ziyi who has headlined successful films, such as “Memoirs of a

Geisha” (2005), “House of Flying Daggers” (2004) and “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon”

(2000). However, he agrees with other informants that the industry is biased towards white

stars as they will make more money in America:

I’m not saying I’m for it, but I’m saying that is what the studios will say: “No one will pay

for this movie if there is not a big star in it”. And there are no big Asian stars. I guess there

is maybe Zhang Ziyi from China [...] I don’t know if she’s famous enough that she could

make a lot of money in Asia, but would Americans see it? Who knows. (Travis, p105).

While these circumstances might not be the result of conscious or overt racism, they still play

a part in a catch-22 or ‘cycle of unemployment’ (Erigha 2015: 87) for minority groups in a

Hollywood that is biased towards white people both in front of the camera, behind it, and as

assumed audiences.

Some of the actors report not being cast for major leading roles if they are not ‘enough of a

name yet’ (Dominique, p131). Paradoxically, they are simultaneously being kept from building

said name and star power for themselves by not getting hired and being replaced with

already-famous (white) stars:

I think that’s the main problem, giving lead roles to stars rather than taking chances on

no-name actors. (Dominique, p132).

41 I do think that this type of casting is a lost opportunity every time. (Selena, p155)

“Ghost in the Shell” eventually had disappointing box office returns (Kilday 2017), suggesting

that the polemic might have had a tangible economic effect after all, or perhaps that the film

was simply not up to par compared to the original Japanese cult classic. In line with the

informants’ points about racially biased casting decisions being a side effect of capitalism

more than a conscious racist practice, Elizabeth Freydberg argues that Hollywood will

continue to visually erase minorities or depict them in a derogatory manner ‘as long as there

is profit to be made in those images’ (Freydberg 2004: 282). Thus, identifying, protesting and

boycotting the practices of racial erasure and not supporting such films economically might

eventually be able to change how people of color are represented in Hollywood, if racial

diversity were to be more profitable than whitewashing.

“Nina”: A Contemporary Case of Blackface

“Nina” (2016) is a biopic dramatizing the life of the African American singer, songwriter and

civil rights activist Nina Simone. Similar to “Ghost in the Shell”, the film was widely criticized

for its casting and creative choices that were considered racially offensive. When the actress

Zoe Saldana was announced to play Nina Simone, some noted that Saldana, who has

Dominican and Puerto Rican heritage, was noticeably light-skinned and Eurocentric compared

to the real-life Nina Simone. Saldana was publicly criticized, but also defended because she is

considered part-black. Another large backlash to the film began when Saldana was put in dark

makeup and a prosthetic nose in an effort to resemble the singer more closely. As specified

earlier, the practice of blackface is tied to a history of colorism and racism in American racial

imagery, and was therefore thought offensive, archaic and unnecessary to many. Critics

questioned why a woman with similar features to Nina Simone was simply not cast in the first

place, and considered the casting decision combined with the use of blackface to be a colorist

choice, and a way to avoid casting a dark-skinned woman with a broad nose, even though Nina

42 Simone looked like that (Acquaah 2016). The late singer’s daughter, Lisa Simone Kelly, publicly

announced that she would rather have seen a darker-skinned woman, such as Viola Davis or

Kimberly Elise, in the role of her mother (Child 2016b, Acquaah 2016). In a video from

BuzzFeed titled “Black Women Respond to Nina”, a group of black women are asked to watch

the film and the trailer while reacting and responding to it.

Fig 6. Portrait of Nina Simone.

The women all express that Nina Simone was struggling precisely because she was a woman of

darker skin, and that she channeled this struggle into her music (BuzzFeedVideo 2016: 0:14-

0:23). One of the women note that this important fact about the singer is left out of the

trailer’s dramatic taglines:

There’s all these quotes like: “She fought for her music”, and I’m like, she also fought for

her image! (Ibid.: 1:44-1:50)

43 The same woman also compares the ‘fake-looking’ (Ibid.: 1:22) makeup on Saldana to the

‘richness and realness’ (Ibid.: 1:17-1:18) of the skin tone of the black actor that she plays

opposite. One of the women says she is distracted by the blackface-makeup that makes

Saldana look ‘greasy’ (Ibid.: 1:34-1:36).

Fig 7. Zoe Saldana as herself (left) and in blackface as Nina Simone (right).

All of the women are clearly emotionally affected by the film, a few of them even tear up

through the video, and finally, one of the women faces the camera and says:

What does it say about my place in the world as a black female if the roles that are made

for me, the stories you want to tell are about me and I can’t even play them? (Ibid.: 2:48-

3:01)

When “Nina” and the controversy around Zoe Saldana and blackface was discussed in the

interviews for this study, informants were divided on the issue. Marie thought it was ridiculous

to accuse Saldana of not being ‘black enough’ (Marie, p141) when she was announced to play

44 Nina in the first place, but did not care for the use of blackface. None of the informants did. As

Dominique puts it: ‘Nobody likes blackface, even if the person wearing it is part-black’

(Dominique, p133). Angela burst out: ‘Oh my God!’, and buried her face in her hands as soon

as I mentioned the film (Angela, p158). Then, she laid out her arguments why both Saldana

and the use of blackface was - to her - an insensitive choice:

[...] Nina Simone's heartache was her skin color. And they didn't have enough

sensitivity towards that. That's what drove her, that was her pain. Her teeth, her lips, her

nose, was part of her pain, and you dishonor her by not choosing an African-American

actor. You have a Latina – she's African-Latina from an island – but you have a Latina

telling the story of a black woman who was discriminated against and criticized for not

being pretty enough. And you take a pretty Latina, paint her darker, change her nose. You

take away something that made Nina Simone and you whitewash it. (Angela, p158)

Ali did not mind the casting choice due to Saldana’s Dominican heritage, but took offense to

the use of blackface. He thought the prosthetic nose especially was ‘rather insulting’ (Ali,

p121), and was surprised that Saldana as a woman of color would comply with that:

Ultimately, I’m happy that a story about a minority woman was told, but the

prosthetic nose - that bothers me. I think it was silly to do that, I don’t think there was any

need for it, I think you could just have put Zoe Saldana out there and said “This is Nina

Simone”. (Ali, p121)

Informed by their experience as directors, both Ali and Travis explain possible monetary

reasons behind the controversy of “Nina”:

[...] I’m sure they produced this film with the intention of making it an Oscar contender. I

would cut them a little slack just because it’s independent and when you’re working with

an indie budget you probably also don’t have very much time. [...] I’d probably have a

harsher opinion if it was a big studio. (Ali, p120)

45 [...] when you are playing a real historical figure with a fan base, it seems like why

wouldn’t you get someone who is actually that [skin tone]? I understand that. The thing

that always is the answer to that from the studio is that they want people to go see the

movie, so sometimes they need to find someone who can sell tickets. (Travis, p105)

As with “Ghost in the Shell”, profit-making is once again highlighted as a deciding factor in who

gets cast, rather than what is, to Travis, the ‘culturally correct’ choice (Travis, p106). He

stresses that while he might not personally agree with these circumstances, Hollywood is a

business, first and foremost, and this is the way things are. Dominique mentions ‘star power’

as the reason why Saldana was cast, and not another darker-skinned actress, and specifies

that booking the lead is practically impossible if one is not a star to begin with: [...] if you are

not already famous, good luck being the star of a film. (Dominique, p133). However, skin tone

bias is often unconscious, and can play a role in how much an employee is considered ‘[...]

‘worth’ and the assessed value of her skills’ (Hunter 2007: 241). Margaret Hunter points to the

overwhelming ratio of light-skinned to dark-skinned actors in television and cinema, and

notes that in the cases of both Latinx and African American stars, most of them are white or

light-skinned, and that ‘African American celebrities are typically lightskinned with Anglo

features’, emulating white standards of beauty (ibid.: 240). As in the case of Johansson, the

argument of stardom and profit once again presents a vicious cycle for darker-skinned actors

and actors of color. Claiming that including diversity should undermine either the quality or

profit of a film, however, remains a curious argument, since direct links has been found

between diversity and profit in Hollywood:

Despite false claims to the contrary, there is no tradeoff in Hollywood today

between diversity and profitability Diversity is clearly a plus factor for the bottom line.

Nor is there a tradeoff between diversity and quality. Quality storytelling plus rich,

diverse performances equals box office and ratings success. Year after year, the evidence

supporting this equation continues to mount. (Hunt et al. 2017: 74)

46 Defenders of “Nina” and Saldana thought other critics too sensitive, stressing that questions of

race were less important than the talent of Saldana (Acquaah 2016). Focus is shifted from

racial issues to star power, and superior talent once more becomes an explanation for colorist

choices. An explanation that is difficult to argue with, as both Saldana and Johansson are

indeed stars:

‘[...] the value embodied by a star is as it were harder to reject as “impossible” or “false”,

because the star’s existence guarantees the existence of the value he or she embodies.’

(Dyer 1979: 22)

However, the use of blackface contradicts this very argument as it does make an issue of race

while also suggesting that Saldana, regardless of her star power, is somehow unable to

perform the character authentically without it. Compared to darker-skinned actresses,

Saldana is in a more privileged position for roles, and thus, having to use blackface to portray

Nina Simone can come across as undermining Simone’s accomplishments as a dark-skinned

African American woman. Nina Simone’s identity as a black woman was an important part of

her identity and her struggle, as she fought for musical recognition after being denied access

to the Curtis Institute of Music on the grounds that she was black (Acquaah 2016).

While writing this section, I realized that all the informants who represented black or African

American ethnicity in my interviews - save for one man, who was not an actor - were also

exclusively light-skinned, mixed-race women. Unfortunately, this leaves unanswered questions

about experiences of racial representation as a darker-skinned person and could be a

coincidence, but could also be thought to indicate a lighter-skinned bias in the industry, or that

lighter-skinned black women perhaps make up a greater percentage of working actresses in

Hollywood than their darker-skinned counterparts, and were therefore easier for me to locate.

According to Hunter, light-skinned people have better odds for employment in general:

Given the opportunity, many people will hire a light-skinned person before a dark-skinned

person of the same race (Hunter 2007: 238)

47 In Hollywood, lighter-skinned actresses have historically been considered more versatile and

relatable because they emulated or ‘passed’ for white women or women of various racial

categories, whereas darker-skinned actresses usually portrayed the same type of lower status

or negative roles tied unfairly to their blackness; such as promiscuous women, whores, bitches

or mammies dressing, grooming and serving white women (Freydberg 2004). While roles may

have gotten less stereotypical throughout time, darker-skinned actresses like Viola Davis (who

Simone’s daughter suggested had played the role of her late mother) still report a lack of

diverse or well-rounded roles for themselves. Davis describes that she still plays

‘downtrodden, mammy-ish’ roles or minor characters ‘[...] who have names but absolutely no

lives. You’re going to get three or four scenes, you’re not going to be able to show what you can

do. You’re going to get your little bitty paycheck, and then you’re going to be hungry for your

next role, which is going to be absolutely the same.’ (D’Alessandro 2014).

The colorist notion that dark-skinned people are less attractive or relatable (Hunter 2005,

Hunter 2007) seemingly continues to manifest itself in contemporary Hollywood. Its racial

imagery is overwhelmingly white, but when black people are represented, as hooks points out,

audiences are still ‘[...] most likely to see images of black people that reinforce and reinscribe

white supremacy’ (hooks 1992: 1). These conditions covertly communicates that lower status

roles are considered more appropriate for darker people of color to play, rather than

characters in leading or heroic narratives. Notably, even in Classical Hollywood, a character

like Mammy from “Gone With the Wind” (1939) does not appear as a white or light-skinned

actor in blackface, but was played by the genuinely dark-skinned Hattie McDaniel. As

Freydberg puts it, women of color were ‘[...] frequently used to demonstrate the contrast

between them and the superior White women’ (Freydberg 2004: 269). And while McDaniel

became the first black woman to win an Oscar for “Best Supporting Actress”, she still did so in

a segregated venue with an otherwise ‘strict no-blacks policy’ (Abramovic 2015), and for a

role that romanticized the idea of the good household slave; the spunky, de-sexualized black

48 woman living happily subordinated to a beautiful young white woman.

Fig. 8. Still from “Gone With the Wind”. Mammy, played by Hattie McDaniel

(right) helps dressing Scarlett O’Hara’s, played by Vivien Leigh (left).

While money and star power were continuously held up by the informants as the main

reasons why people of color or people of darker skin tones have not been cast in both film

cases, none of these reasons explain the need for Saldana appearing ‘blacker’ than she is by

using makeup and prosthetics. Saldana is not only performing a level of ‘blackness’ that she

does embody to begin with, she is complicent in the use of an archaic performance of race. A

practice that has historically been used to justify slavery and racial division by mocking and

dehumanizing black people (Saxton 1975: 28, Lott 1992: 23).

The use of blackface calls to mind D.W. Griffith’s overtly racist “The Birth of a Nation” (1915)

that portrayed the Ku Klux Klan as heroes, and portrayed black people - played by white actors

with burnt cork or black paint smeared across their skin - as sex-crazed savages (Freydberg

2004: 268). A film whose representation of blackness had real consequences, as it ‘proved

49 horrifically effective at sparking violence against blacks in many cities’ (Brody 2013), and

whose imagery shaped the bipolar racial discourse in American cinema for many years to

come:

Politics of race and gender were inscribed into mainstream cinematic narrative from

Birth of a Nation on. (hooks 1992: 119-120)

Thus, blackface is inseparable from its history of harmful racial impersonations of black

people; a practice used for the amusement of white people and for hammering in stereotypes

about black people that justified their subordination to whites.

Comparing the casting of Zoe Saldana in “Nina” to the casting of Scarlett Johansson in “Ghost

in the Shell”, some thought that accuracy of ethnicity or skin tone was more important when

portraying a real life person such as Nina Simone, but were more forgiving in Scarlett

Johansson’s case, because she was ‘technically playing an android’ (Marie p135). Travis

pointed out that racially ‘correct’ castings of people of color were, to him, more important if

the actor was playing a historical figure, or if the movie was about race:

When they do a movie about Barack Obama one day, the first black American

president, even though he is half-black - his mother is white, his father is black - racially,

that is a very important thing about his biography, so I guarantee you they will cast an at

least half black or black man to play him. They won’t cast a white guy who just has a tan

or a Dominican guy, because the movie really has got a lot to do with race. (Travis, p106)

However, Nina Simone was a real-life historical person, and being black was an important

aspect of her legacy and her lived experience, much like blackness should be a factor in a

future film about Barack Obama’s accomplishment of becoming president.

Ultimately, the case of “Nina” indicates that in 2016 - even with working and talented black

actors - Hollywood can still decide to paint the face of a light-skinned actress to have her look

‘blacker’ than she is rather than casting a dark-skinned woman as the lead in a film, even

50 though the film paradoxically pretends to honor and tell the story of an iconic dark-skinned

woman. Consciously or subconsciously, these acts can be thought to perpetuate the erasure of

(dark-skinned) black women from both cinema and, perhaps more importantly, from their

own stories and accomplishments. Issues relating to colorism and whiteness bias in

Hollywood will be elaborated further in the second chapter of analysis, which will center

around the lived experiences of the informants themselves.

Second Chapter of Analysis

Colorism and Racial Performativity

When asked about racial stereotypes, all of the informants mentioned specific racial or

cultural stereotypes that they think are frequently seen in Hollywood in general. Examples

include the angry or sassy black woman (Angela, Allison, Destiny), the black male clown or

buffoon (Austin), the Latino drug lord (Ali), the white hero or savior (Blake, Austin), the nerdy

Asian (Allison, Blake, Selena, Marie) or the Muslim terrorist (Allison, Ali, Travis). Most of the

actors also have concrete and more detailed examples from their own casting experiences. In

this section I will demonstrate how racial stereotypes and racial performativity relate to

actors’ experiences with casting, beginning with an example from the white actress Allison.

She speaks about a specific incident in which she was asked to do a ‘black accent’ for a cartoon

voice-over:

I went for an audition for a voice-over and I did not know this, I had not seen any

drawings of what the cartoon was going to look like. It was basically just a script and

they e-maled me my lines and I went in. But the character was black and I was

auditioning for that. I didn’t know what to do in the room, because he wanted me to put

on a [makes quotation signs with her fingers] black accent. (Allison, p108-109)

She had not been informed by her agent that the character she was auditioning for was going

to be black, and being asked to perform blackness at the audition not only took her by

51 surprise, but made her uncomfortable. To avoid having to perform an accent that she felt

‘played into all the wrong stereotypes’ (Allison, p109), she chose to do her American accent

instead of her normal Australian accent, accepting that in doing so she would probably not get

the role as she did not perform in the manner that was required. In retrospect, she said, she

would not have accepted the part even if she was chosen because she felt that the situation

‘was not right’ (Allison, p109). She felt if they wanted the cartoon character to feel more

realistically black, they should have chosen a black actress in the first place: ‘if they wanted a

black character, they should have gotten a black person to do the voice’ (Allison, p109). In this

instance, the category of race or blackness is both fixed and ephemeral. It exists both as a

stereotypical notion of speech, and is simultaneously a form of performance that can be

carried out by subjects inhabiting other racialized positions, such as that of whiteness.

While recounting the experience with being asked to perform blackness as a white woman in

the voiceover, Allison stressed that it happened when she was younger and that she now

considers herself more ‘educated’, more ‘culturally aware’ and in a more ‘mature headspace’

(Allison p109). The value placed on these words indicates that she perceives herself to be

wiser now that she is made aware of racial discrimination, and the repetition indicates that

she wants to come across as such. Allison also frequently talks about right and wrong in the

interview, such as the ‘right’ way to think or the ‘wrong’ stereotypes. She is doing identity

work in the interview situation by attempting to ‘express, elaborate, strengthen, defend, and/or

repair a favored self-identity’ (Alvesson 2003: 20), communicating that while she is white and

has more opportunities than her colleagues of color, she is aware and sympathetic to their

struggles. The experience also caused her to wonder about the frequency with which other

cartoon characters of color are voiced by white people, since voice actors remain unseen in a

cartoon while they are still able to perform a certain perception of race using their tone of

voice and vocabulary (Allison, p109).

52 While Allison did immediately understand what the casting directors meant by ‘black accent’,

she did not want to comply with it. Still, she recognized the cultural stereotype that is ‘ [...]

conceived and perceived to be ‘Black dialect’ (replete with ‘dese’, ‘dat’s’ and ‘dis’s’) (Freydberg

2004: 210) and that often equates black speech with broken English or slang. She is applying a

cultural script to describe her experience, defined by Mats Alvesson as using available

repertoires of ‘vocabularies, metaphors, genres and conventions for talking about issues’

(Alvesson 2003: 20). Not explaining what was suggested by ‘black accent’ indicates an

assumption that I was familiar with the cultural script or stereotype as well, which I happened

to be because of its frequent use in mainstream media.

The informants with black heritage mention being affected by this common stereotype about

black people, both in their personal and professional lives. Actress and screenwriter Angela

recounts an incident in which she picked up food from a drive-thru, and the cashier was

visibly surprised to see a black woman pull up at the window, because she had “sounded

white” on the phone. She connects the persisting idea of a certain black mode of speaking to

the way black people are usually portrayed in pop culture or visual media:

I don't look like the black people they see on TV and movies, I don't talk like

them, I'm not obnoxious and loud, but that's the stereotype they've been fed.

(Angela, p169)

When interviewing actress Destiny, a struggle with prejudices about blackness and the

speech and mannerisms connected to Hollywood’s presentation of blackness was frequently

mentioned. Destiny explains that she has a multi-ethnic background, but because of her

physical features, she is defined by both society and the industry as a black woman, and is

therefore expected to perform accordingly:

My mother is Swedish or Scandinavian, so Caucasian, and my dad is Native

American and African American. So, genetically I’m only a quarter black, but it is a very

dominant gene that I carry, so that is the category I have been placed in. [...]

There is a certain presentation of yourself when you’re put into that black

category. They expect you to fill that character. It’s more of a character than an

53 actual ethnicity. (Destiny, p147)

As an actress, her job is based on her ability to transform and perform as different characters,

but in her statement above, she describes that race often becomes a performance of its own,

that she feels instantly labeled because of her physical traits and that her features affect her

opportunities and the roles she is believed to be ‘right for’ (Destiny, p147). The roles that are

submitted to her specify race as a part of the breakdown or casting call, such as ‘Her name is

Karen, she’s African American, she’s in her mid-twenties’ (Destiny, p147), followed by

personality characteristics or connotations seemingly connected not only to the character in

question, but also to her racial background: ‘A lot of times within those breakdowns it is, like,

“she’s rough, grew up on the streets”, you know, things of that nature.’ (Destiny, p147).

Dominique, one of the other actresses with African American heritage, mentions that while

she does not feel like she personally encounters many racial stereotypes, she finds herself

frequently playing a characters with ‘strong stubborn personalities’ (Dominique, p131). While

the idea that a tough attitude, slang or other urban, street-wise characteristics equals

blackness is normalized by Hollywood, both Destiny and Angela explained that these

characteristics are far removed from their own realities and lived experiences as part-black

women. In the interview, Destiny described how she found the repeated use of these traits

distressing:

I have a direct feeling when I see a breakdown that is requiring me to - for

lack of better term - be blacker than I am. I have a very hard time with that, because I

don’t know what that actually means. I have a depiction of it from what Hollywood has

led us to believe being black is. But there are so many different versions of black and I

definitely have a harder time falling into that stereotype. (Destiny, p147)

54 During the talk about blackness, she mentions going on a casting for a TV show with an

opening for black female characters that exemplified two juxtaposed ideas of how to perform

race as an African American woman:

One of them, her name is Ruby, she’s a black power activist. That’s just how she

lives her life, that’s how she was raised, that is how she maneuvers through space.

She is always fighting for Black Lives Matter. And then the other girl, Chantelle,

she’s more of the black beauty queen. But none of her topics revolve around her

ethnicity at all. She is just the - for lack of better terms - the more whitewashed

version of the African American representation on the show. (Destiny, p148).

When asked to elaborate on the term “whitewashed” and the differences between the

characters Ruby and Chantelle, Destiny mentions arbitrary genetics and physical differences,

such as the breakdown requiring Ruby to have ‘natural hair’, describing it as ‘curly’, ‘kinky’ and

‘afro-y’, while the character Chantelle had a weave in her hair, making it ‘long and flowy and

obviously not hers’ (Destiny, p148). The use of a hair weave refers back to the internalized

racist term of having ‘good hair’ in the black community (Robinson 2011), and is tied to

colorism by perpetuating the idea that physical features resembling those of Caucasians or

Europeans are considered more attractive. Chantelle’s straighter, softer hair - although it is

fake - is therefore believed to be superior to coarser, curlier hair textures, such as Ruby’s

natural hair. The character Chantelle is, in Destiny’s words, a whitewashed black girl and a

black beauty queen. She is performing (or conforming to) whiteness by wearing a weave in

her hair and altering its natural texture. Destiny also notes that Chantelle was ‘a bit more well-

spoken as well’ (Destiny, p148) compared to the black power activist Ruby, once more

referencing the stereotypes about black speech that in contrast positions a more eloquent and

proper vocabulary to be more white. It is indicative that attributes perceived to be more or

less black - such as the description of hair texture and language - adds to the level of blackness

performed. Ruby, then, appears to be ‘blacker’ than Chantelle, because of their difference in

speech and hair texture. As Destiny notes, the identity of Ruby with the kinky hair revolves

55 around blackness and fighting for her rights as a black woman, while Chantelle with the

straight hair and the more eloquent speech is not concerned with her blackness in the

slightest: ‘[...] this one is all about being black and being proud of it, and this one just hasn’t even

mentioned it at all.’ (Destiny, p148)

Specific racial performativity of speech is not only applicable to the actors of African American

descent. Marie also speaks about how the particular accent expected for an audition is often

unclear to her. As an Asian American she speaks in an American accent naturally, but

depending on the role, the casting director might want her to perform with a specific Asian

accent. Often she will have to read between the lines of the scripts to determine which mode

of speech she will choose for her audition: ‘[...] you don’t necessarily know if you’re going to

have to play stereotypical Asian or not’ (Marie, p137).

Finally, the topic of colorism, while mostly discussed in relation to the black community, also

permeates the Asian communities that have a history of European colonialism (Hunter 2017:

239). Marie highlights this as she talks about the Filipino community and their ‘love’ for

whiteness, light skin and Eurocentric features. She talks about how babies and kids are told

‘you’re too dark’ by adults, and that lighter skin is thought to be synonymous with ‘better

blood’ (Marie, p145), improving the Filipino race, while dark skin once more becomes a

signifier of poverty and ugliness:

[...] in our Filipino culture they love white people and they love it when women in

the family marry white men. And I did, hopefully it doesn’t have anything to do with that.

They actually use this phrase that’s called “improving the race” and it’s the most terrible

thing I’ve ever heard. [...] Filipinos generally look at lighter-skinned Filipinos as better.

They look at the darker people as poor and lighter-skinned people just have better, they

call it, “better blood”. (Marie, p145)

Having married a white husband, Marie is frequently urged to produce children, because her

relatives are eager to have his genes ‘improve’ their family, making the next generation even

56 more light-skinned and thus, according to the logic of internalized racism, a ‘better’ generation

(Marie, p145).

Ambiguity: The Benefits and Disadvantages of Being Multiracial

Being bi- or multiracial can be a disadvantage for actors. Some of the informants mention a

term frequently used in the industry, describing mixed race actors as being ‘ethnically

ambiguous’ (Destiny, Selena, Marie). While feedback on unsuccessful auditions is extremely

rare according to Marie and Selena, some of the informants describe experiences of being

turned down for not being convincing enough as character of a specific racial or ethnic group,

even though the group in question is one that they themselves belong to. Destiny mentioned

feeling expected to sometimes ‘be blacker’ than she is, and Filipino European actress Selena

who identifies as Asian describes getting the feedback that she was not Asian enough: ‘[...]

when I have gotten feedback on something it's just because they needed someone "more Asian"’

(Selena, p154).

These messages given to actors of color reveal that there are still certain expectations or

perceived truths connected to race in the industry, and that these beliefs continue to shape the

opportunities and range in which actors of color get to perform. Being told by a predominantly

white industry that you do not look or act authentically enough like a member of your own

culture, ethnicity or racial group reveals that white people, to a large extent, are dictating

racial narratives and what is considered correct or authentic performances of Asian or black.

The industry is still holding on to fairly one-dimensional ideas of what these different racial

identities look, sound and act like, and in doing so, denying work for some actors of color

because they do not fit the narrow molds. However, being racially or ethnically ambiguous also

has its advantages, according to some of the actors. They explain that stereotypes usually

belong to a fixed racial category, and because they are mixed, their opportunities to play

characters of different racial or ethnic groups are sometimes enhanced:

57 Being ethnically ambiguous also helps in breaking any stereotypes, just because

the stereotypes aren't really there for people of mixed race (Selena, p155).

There’s no specific Filipino role, you know? I’m also fortunate that I’m kind of

ethnically ambiguous when it comes to Asians in general, I’ve played Cambodian

and Chinese, but yeah, that’s definitely an issue. (Marie, p141)

The word ‘ambiguous’ in itself is a term that presupposes polarizing understandings of race,

deeming what falls outside of one of two possibilities mysterious, impure or complicated to

place. Used about someone’s appearance it assumes a fixed idea of racial categories, and that

race is supposedly and immediately determinable by looking at a person’s visible

characteristics:

When mythic bloodlines which are thought to determine identity fail to match

the visible markers used by identity discourses to signify race, one often

encounters these odd responses by acquaintances announcing with arrogant

certainty ‘But you don’t look like...’ [...] to feel one’s face studied with great

seriousness, not for its (hoped for) character lines, or its distinctiveness, but for

its telltale racial trace, can be a particularly unsettling experience

(Alcoff 1999: 31)

The idea of possessing racial ambiguity influences whether or not actors are able to correctly

perform what is expected of their racial category by Hollywood, by society or even by their

own racial community. Hunter asserts that light-skinned people of color, while receiving

certain privileges, must often ‘prove themselves’ as members of their racial group, because

darker skin tones are often thought to signify racial authenticity (Hunter 2007: 244).

Much like a binary view of gender or sexuality, a binary understanding of race as mixed/pure,

black/white or white/non-white promotes segregation and opposition between the two, and

58 can therefore constrain racial identities and exclude individuals who do not embody the

discursive norms ascribed to their category. Such binary oppositions are not only

oversimplifying race as a concept, but will often also dictate one of the polarized categories as

dominant and superior to the other (Hall 1997: 235), presenting the idea of a white

superiority versus a racialized other’s inferiority, or the idea that belonging 'purely' to a

specific racial category is preferable to being mixed and ambiguous. In some respects,

perspectives on binary gender discourses and performativity are thus transferable to the topic

of race. As Butler puts it, ‘[...] identity is performatively constituted by the very "expressions"

that are said to be its results.’ (Butler 1990: 25) In ”The Spectacle of the Other”, Stuart Hall also

points out that race and gender can be approached similarly by arguing that his observations

on representation of racial difference 'could be equally applied in many instances to other

dimensions of difference, such as gender, sexuality, class, and disability' (Hall 1997: 225). Much

like individuals are shaped and constrained by repeated performances of gender norms

rooted in heteronormativity, individuals are also raced and their identity shaped by normative

ideas of racial differences rooted in Western white hegemony. Like gender, the concept of race

is tied to a person’s identity, and like gender, the category of race has also been found to be a

social construct upheld by repetitions of performance rather than actual biological differences

between people (Gates 1986). Since both dimensions of difference are subject to oppositional

constructions of meaning, the idea of ‘passing’ and the question of authenticity exists in

relation to both gender and race. Like one might be accused of not being a ‘real’ boy by

presenting traditionally feminine, one might also be accused of falsehood when not

performing according to fixed racial categories.

While race as a distinct, biologically different species does not exist, the notion of race still

exists as the '[…] ultimate trope of difference' (ibid.: 5), continuing to inform the way we see

ourselves and others. The socio-culturally constructed racial categories that render one

genetic expression superior to another, however, does make race a very real and potentially

dangerous concept. Paradoxically, as biologically non-existent as racial categories are, race

59 remains a powerful concept that is intrinsically felt by all of the informants – especially those

of color whose identity expressions are sometimes constrained by it.

As described by some of the informants, being mixed race in Hollywood either weakens your

position when you fall somewhere between categories, or strengthens your position by

allowing you access to more roles because you are not boxed in by a certain racial category.

Whatever the case, both options assume underlying racial prejudices and do not allow for the

complexities of multi-ethnic life experiences. Struggling with the binary discourse of

blackness versus whiteness in America, Destiny describes how she often feels trapped in the

middle because she is not seen – and does not see herself - as belonging fully to one side or the

other. Therefore, she avoids picking a color to identify with whenever possible and prefers the

term ‘other’ when asked to define how she identifies racially:

I personally would describe it as “other” whenever there is a bubble. I just tend

to gravitate towards “other” because I don’t necessarily like to be put in a

particular category even though that is the way that the world likes to see

people. (Destiny, p147)

Hypodescent, or what is perhaps more commonly known as the ‘one-drop-rule’, is a system

that labels mixed race individuals with the slightest amount of known black ancestry as black.

Figuratively, a single drop of ‘black blood’ is then enough to classify a person as being black

according to this racializing rule of thumb (Davis 1991). For Destiny, this rule is evident in the

way she experiences being seen by others, but it is limiting and problematic to her identity:

[...] light-skinned and biracial people often report feeling left out or pushed out of co-

ethnic groups. They report other people’s perceptions of their racial identity as a common

source of conflict or discomfort (Hunter 2007: 244)

Earlier she described how she is considered black by the industry according to the one-drop-

rule, saying that while she technically only identifies as 25% black, that blackness is

60 recognized by others, as it ‘is a very dominant gene that I carry’. Simultaneously, however, she

does not feel like she is ‘black enough’ for the black community, as she deviates from both

normative expectations connected to how black or white is performed. While dark skin is

often judged as unattractive and devalued, dark skin also bears witness to fixed racial

categories, becoming the signifier and proof of belonging ‘authentically’ to the black

community. This is what Hunter calls ‘the conundrum of colorism’ (ibid.: 245), and is made

clear as Destiny talks about contemplating auditioning for either Ruby or Chantelle:

And I just remember going in for that audition and thinking: “I don’t really live in

this world of Ruby, the black activist”, I live in this world over here because I was

raised by my white mother. I didn’t have a connection to my blackness for a very

long time, like, well into my twenties. I remember thinking “Man, I wish I had the

opportunity to go for this role [Ruby] as opposed to this one [Chantelle]”.

(Destiny, p149)

This identity dilemma calls to mind the old Hollywood trope of the 'tragic mulatto', which also

centers around a mixed race individual being caught in the middle of racial categories,

yearning for a sense of belonging in a racially divisive society (Freydberg 2004: 268). Though

the idea of existing biological racial differences might be a social construction supported by

repeated imagery and performance that solidify preconceived notions about racial categories,

a case like Destiny’s demonstrates quite clearly how Hollywood's idea of fixed racial categories

can feel very real, impacting the self-image and possibilities for people of color. The discourses

and connotations ascribed to different racial categories positions black and white as

opposites, and renders the industry confused about mixed people like Destiny, because by the

logic of clear racial categories she is per definition out of place, something ‘other’ than black or

white. Claiming the word ‘other’ for herself is her own way of taking back control of her racial

identity, and can be compared to how homosexuals take back power over words like “fag” or

“dyke” that has previously been used by homophobic straight people to exclude and other

61 them. According to Saussure’s theory on language and meaning, ‘[...] the relation between

signifier and signified, which is fixed by our cultural codes, is not [...] permanently fixed’ (Hall

1997 32). Destiny demonstrates this by changing the code of what is usually signified by the

word ‘other’ when discussing race, by turning a binary, ‘us-versus-them’ term into an ‘other’

that instead refuses to be boxed in by picking one of two sides. An ‘other’ whose identity and

complexities are not captured by dichotomy. Despite Destiny’s mixed heritage and her

determination to not categorize herself by picking sides, however, she still has to navigate an

industry that will immediately categorize her as black and therefore sometimes ask her to

perform according to the racial discourse of black stereotypes in Hollywood. This is referred

to by a few informants as ‘playing the game’, and will be elaborated in the next section of

analysis dubbed: “Playing the Game: Compromising and Contemplating Stereotypes”.

Notably, none of the white actors mention being constrained by their racial category of

whiteness or expected to perform in a way that is connected to their racial category. Based on

the testimonies of the informants for this particular study and in line with Richard Dyer’s

theories, it is heavily implied that whiteness is assumed to be the default human condition in

the scripts of Hollywood, perhaps mirroring a general racial discourse of American society.

This section has shown that among the informants, most actors of color believe assumptions

about race and racial performances to be a significant factor in their work and opportunities,

whereas the white informants mention no such struggle regarding their own racial category,

but could be struggling with other aspects of identity, such as sexuality or gender.

Playing the Game: Compromising and Contemplating Stereotypes

This section is a continuation of the section above regarding experiences for actors of color.

Thus, this section deals with specific experiences of racial stereotyping and how fixed notions

of race affect the actors' practically in terms of range of possibility, opportunity and working

conditions. The forthcoming section will focus less on practical effects, and more on the

emotional effects of Hollywood’s racial narratives.

62 Several of the actors of color describe that leading roles are rarely if ever available to them

(Marie, Blake, Selena, Dominique, Destiny), and that they generally feel that they are not

expected to play either the lead or the romantic interest of a white leading character:

I'm definitely not expected to play the white male lead who saves the day in an all

white cast and I don't expect to play the romantic lead opposite a white woman.

(Blake, p127)

Marie explains that with ‘so few auditions and few opportunities’ (Marie, p143) she is generally

willing to compromise if the role could further her career. She tells an anecdote about how she

had the opportunity to play a role that had her torn in terms of her personal boundaries and

what was best for her career. The role was for an Asian lead in a series, but it required nudity,

which was something she had previously decided against and was not comfortable with.

However, the opportunity of booking a lead in a series was too rare for her to miss, so she

compromised:

And I looked at it and I thought: “Fuck. I have never gotten a breakdown for a lead in a

series. I have to do nudity”! (Marie, p143)

Most actors of color shared this attitude of ‘cost-benefit’ (Blake, p129) when deciding if a

stereotypical role was ultimately worth playing. Destiny said that if she was passionate about

the project, she would ‘have to push aside my own insecurities about my blackness. Because I

kind of feel like some of these stories need to be told’ (Destiny, p148). However, if the character

was too much of a cliché and ‘so far from my normal speech and so far from my understanding

of my own personal experiences with being black’, she would turn it down (Destiny, p148).

Blake also mentioned the importance of not participating in harmful racial narratives

uncritically, as he believed actors of color playing racial caricatures was a way of complying

with and perpetuating a racist discourse that is detrimental to both his culture, himself and,

ultimately, ‘to the detriment of future Asian actors’ (Blake, p129).

63 A few informants used the phrase 'playing the game' to describe their situation navigating

racial stereotypes and sometimes being part of a less than favorable racial representation if

that is what was necessary for them to keep working, build their resumé and make a name for

themselves in the business:

[…] we just have to play the game. I have to put myself into a box as much as I try

and fight it, as much as I don’t feel like I believe that or belong there. In order to get

where I want to go, I just have to play this role. (Destiny, p149)

Nobody wants you until somebody wants you. The are a lot of talented black people

and LGBTQ people, but they are more likely to take a chance on a non-minority instead of

someone like us. So we constantly have to prove that somebody liked us to get booked. […]

It's unfair, but you learn the game, and then you play the game.

(Angela, p159)

Similarly, in one of Jane Elliott’s ”Brown Eyes/Blue Eyes” exercises, a man of color also

describes 'playing the game', not in his work environment, but in his daily life. This indicates

that 'playing the game' is a term not just applicable to being a person of color navigating

Hollywood, but being a person of color navigating society. In this man's case, the term is used

to describe conforming to white supremacy in an act of hiding his racialized body from others

out of fear. He explains how he does this in an effort to protect his young daughter from

harassment and prejudices, as she is the only non-white child at her school in a middle-class

area. Not wanting the white parents at her school to associate her with non-whiteness and

treat her differently, he avoids picking her up from school to avoid showing them his brown

skin, brown eyes and long, dreadlocked hair:

I talk in terms of, ”I play the game”. If you speak to me on the phone you will have zero

idea of what I look like. You either conform, in which case you get an easy life, or you fight

against it and you will end up criminalized, outcast and removed from the situation

(Critical Voices 2013: 30:11-31:10)

64 For the informants, the act of 'playing the game' might also permeate into their everyday life,

but in the interviews, the term is seemingly applied to the act of playing along with

Hollywood's narrow racial narratives in the hopes of increasing one's chances for success. In

either case, it seems to be a form of 'survival' strategy, as implied by the quote above from the

Jane Elliot study. 'Playing the game' is described by informants as something they feel the need

to do if they want to 'stay employed' (Blake, p129) and 'go where I want to go' (Destiny, p149)

in their professional life.

While most lesser-known actors presumably have another source of income, Marie was the

only one who spontaneously mentioned having another job. She is bartending at night to be

available for auditions during the day. When asked about the bartending job, she talked about

how the scarcity of roles created a need for financial stability while pursuing her acting

career:

I’d like to leave the bar. I didn’t want to be here for eight years, I definitely don’t want to

be there for a decade. I keep thinking about what would change for me to be able leave

and as much as I like to stay positive about it, it’s essentially just booking a lead in

something, which again, based on the roles that are available to me is very hard.

(Marie, p142)

She compares her opportunities as an Asian American actress to that of her white husband,

who also works as an actor. Her husband works on the side like she does, but she points out

that he does not always need to and that opportunities for work is more abundant for her

husband than for herself: ‘I’ll see the amount of auditions I get compared to the amount of

auditions that he gets, and there’s a significant difference in that’ (Marie, p136). When asked to

elaborate on the difference, she replies that they are sometimes submitted for similar projects

but that in her experience there are simply more projects available to a white male actor such

as her husband: [...] he would have two auditions a week and I’ll get one every two or three

months. The projects available for me are not as plentiful, there just aren’t as many. And when I

65 do go out, it’s almost never for the lead in things, it’s usually for smaller co-stars or guest stars.

(Marie, p136)

This comparison is one that is drawn from her own personal life and experiences sharing the

same career as her husband, but noticing significant differences in their work life that she

cannot help but tie to their perceived racial differences. While the amount of auditions and

work differ for every actor, Marie’s experience is an example of the tangible potential effects on

the personal and professional lives of people of color working in Hollywood when they

compare their circumstances to those of their white colleagues. While Marie stressed that her

husband is talented and hard-working, her statements still indicate that she finds the

difference in the opportunities available for each of them significant and unfair: ’He’s super

talented and has been at it a long time. He does all the things he’s supposed to do, but in the

same token I feel like we put in the same amount of work, right?’ As Marie puts it at the end of

her interview; ‘I think that the struggle of being an actress is already so hard and being an

actress of color is even harder.’ (Marie, p146). Dominique also points out unfair opportunities

for roles: ‘If you represent more black people in films, I could potentially work more. [...] if they

don’t open a search to include no-name actresses or actresses that are non-white, then I don’t get

to compete. (Dominique, p133)

Both Travis and Ali agrees that most roles in both television and cinema 'still go to white

people' and often to white men (Travis, Ali). In significant contrast to the conditions

experienced by the actors of color, Allison describes how she does not feel limited by her

whiteness. Rather, being white benefits her in the business:

Being white I get opportunities for all roles whether that’s right or wrong. Basically

I’m not limited at all (Allison, p111)

Allison even has the opportunity to be cross-cast as non-white characters, such as when she

was offered to voice a black character, or if she were to be asked to play a whitewashed role.

66 According to Marie, Angela, Melania and Hannah, this kind of racial cross-casting is unlikely to

happen the other way around with people of color being cast as white characters: 'I would not

be cast as white' (Marie, p141). Freydberg highlights the fact that racial cross-casting is usually

done ‘white to person of color’, and not ‘person of color to white’. Furthermore, she addresses

Hollywood’s ability to celebrate a multitude of white actresses simultaneously, while ‘[...] only

one African American actress at a time is considered a box-office attraction’(Freydberg 2004:

281). The bias towards whiteness in the industry will be continued in the next section of

analysis, ”The White Gaze: Racial Bias and the Power of (Non-)Representation”.

While all informants seemed familiar with Hollywood’s repertoire of stereotypes, some

informants explained how certain stereotypes could be interpreted as positive. Both the

female and male actors of Asian descent had encountered the assumption that they were

inherently skilled in martial arts - both mentioned Kung Fu (Blake, Marie) - simply because

they had Asian heritage. None of the other actors mentioned being expected to know a

martial art, implying that this is a stereotype tied specifically to Asians. Blake, who is Chinese

American, thought of this stereotype as somewhat offensive, but said that depending on the

size of the project and how it could impact his career, he would be willing to take such a role

despite its racial stereotypes:

If the role is offensive and uncomfortable, I will look at the project itself. If I'm playing an

Asian gangster with an Asian accent which is funny and demeaning but the underlying

theme of the movie is about a deeper meaning and message, I would play that. However,

if I'm throwing my culture under the bus for a few laughs and gags just to make a little

bit of money, I will happily turn it down. (Blake, p129)

Marie on the contrary had encountered this specific assumption so many times that she

eventually decided to learn Kung Fu to be able to book more jobs where this skill was

requested, and to avoid lying about it:

67 I’ve lied about having martial arts experience for a very long time. [...] So I did take

lessons in Kung Fu for a while to be like “Alright, I’m not lying anymore. I have Kung Fu

experience” [...] It’s just a weird presumption that people have. And Kung Fu is awesome,

it was great to learn it, but it’s interesting to need to learn it.

(Marie, p143)

Believing Asians to be experts of martial arts simply for being Asian is certainly a

generalization. However, it could be considered a positive stereotype as it involves mastering a

skill. In a similar vein, Marie mentions how being perceived as a nerd or mathematical genius

is another specific Asian stereotype that she does not mind being associated with, because, to

her, it is a positive trait. While some stereotypes may be positive, they are still reductionist,

defining non-white people immediately by racial identity rather than a more complex, human

identity:

Whether the image that a stereotype projects is positive or negative, [...] it always

limits the range of human behaviours and emotions that viewers are willing to

ascribe to a stereotyped group. In the language of fictive or imaginative media,

stereotype creates ‘flat’ characters (Freydberg 2004: 265)

While white people also play flat characters, stock characters and tropes, such as ‘the manic

pixie dream-girl’ as mentioned by Austin (Austin, p98-99), these roles are less fixated on a

specific racialized subject compared to the examples mentioned by the informants. White

people are still allowed their multifariousness and perceived universality, thus resisting racial

stereotypes tied to whiteness.

Among the more harmful Asian stereotypes, the informants point to the tendency that Asian

men are generally portrayed as unattractive, emasculated or sexually inadequate (Selena,

Marie, Blake), while their female counterparts are often sexualized, either as docile,

submissive servants or as feisty dragon ladies. This binary madonna/whore-complex about

68 women of color is pervasive in both Hollywood and the adult film industry, where the

racialization of bodies in porn holds potential for sexual fantasies about exotic beauty, savage

sexuality or simply excites the viewer by picturing the ‘taboo’ of interracial couplings (Jensen

2004: 257). Asian women are even described by some of the informants as ‘fetishized’ in

Hollywood (Blake, Selena) - a word that has an obsessive, pornographic ring to it - while Asian

men are rarely portrayed as objects of either sexual or romantic desire. Rather, any sexual

mention is usually for comedic effect, perpetuating clichés about small penises and

subordinate forms of masculinity that are not portrayed as desirable to women:

[...] Asian women, for example are fetishized, but Asian men are seen as

unattractive or impotent. (Selena, p155)

The agreement between informants that racial stereotypes can differ according to other

aspects of identity - in this case gender - points to the importance of intersectionality.

According to the informants, the intersection of gender in a racial category allows for

significantly different racial stereotypes. The signifier ‘Asian’ combined with ‘man’ thus

signifies something entirely different than ‘Asian’ combined with ‘woman’.

Importantly, many of the informants spontaneously mentioned representation of other areas

of identity or of intersecting groups. The informants did this regardless of their own gender,

sexuality, occupation or racial background. The underrepresentation of women in the film

industry was frequently mentioned, referring to female employment both behind and in front

of the camera (Ali, Travis, Melania, Hannah, Angela). Some mentioned the need for diverse

representations of sexuality as well, specifically homosexuality (Travis, Melania, Hannah,

Angela), and Travis mentioned representing people with disabilities (Travis, p101). The

overall term used by the informants to describe inclusion and representation of various

groups was ‘diversity’. This term was both used about racial diversity specifically, but also as a

blanket term for the representation of any marginalized group. While many of the informants

belonged to a minority group themselves because of their gender, race or sexuality, they were

69 quick to speak about the importance of including other groups outside of their own, and

sometimes downplaying their own minority’s struggle because they believe another group

was even less visible and privileged. Many informants speak about the underrepresentation of

women in the film industry and compare, equate or even favor the fight for female

representation to the fight for racial representation. Ali, a male part-Latino and Muslim

director, argues passionately for Hollywood to ‘[...] level the playing field with women first’ (Ali,

p118) and believes female representation to take priority over racial or cultural

representation even though he acknowledges that Muslims are marginalized in Hollywood

and ‘[...] often accused of being the main perpetrators of terrorism’ (Ali, p114). Destiny says that

she thinks black people have the most opportunities second to white people in the industry,

and that despite her own struggles as part-black, she would like to see more Asians, Indians

and Hispanics represented on screen, because she believes that ‘the bigger fights’ are coming

from these communities (Destiny, p150). Austin, the black curator of independent black

cinema, even compares black people's struggle to create their own images of blackness in the

midst of a white-centric film industry to women's struggle for equality in a patriarchal society:

If you want to be represented, you have to ask someone for it, and if that person

does not believe you exist, if you have to argue for your representation in something that

has historically not seen your voice as an active in that institution... Then why are you - ?

Why? [Throws out his arms in a shrug-like gesture] It’s like screaming when no one is

going to hear you. Why would I ask to be represented in something that does literally not

configure me into the process in the first place? It’s like women and patriarchy in a lot of

ways. (Austin, p97)

Thus, many of the informants are performing intersectional solidarity work and are mindful to

speak for and include other identity groups than just their own in the interview. It might be

easier for them to empathize with another underrepresented group if they belong to one

themselves. According to Audre Lorde, intersectional solidarity grants people a sense of

community, and she asserts, ‘Without community there is no liberation’ (Lorde 1984: 112).

70 Equal rights cannot be realized if some groups are continuously left out of the conversation.

While marginalized people might fight their own struggles for equality, they might sometimes

unconsciously participate in the reproduction of oppressing structures towards others.

Claiming a colorblind ideology or practicing white feminism is a perfect example of this, as

when Johansson neglected the intersection of racialized women by defending the

whitewashing of a role because it was supposedly an achievement for (white) women. If an

ideology of feminism is not mindful of intersections, it begs the question: Who does it actually

benefit? To that end, being mindful of privilege and power is an important tool in avoiding

derailing discussions of specific issues while (well-meaningly) silencing the different

experiences of other oppressed groups. Lorde and bell hooks stresses that community is not

built by ignoring differences through ideas of a ‘universal subjectivity’ or ‘sameness’ (hooks

1992: 167). Rather, community is built through the mindset that difference can be a site of

strength and identity:

Difference is that raw and powerful connection from which our personal power is forged.

(Lorde 1984: 112)

Thus, the informants are striving to build community and allyship across intersections by

recognizing difference rather than speaking of difference in terms of ‘the other’.

The topics covered in this section reveal that the actors of color feel like they have limited

opportunities compared to most white actors, partly because of specific persistent

stereotypes, and while they generally try to avoid spending their time and talent on outright

offensive racial caricatures, they will sometimes compromise with their principles to play

certain stereotypical roles, or roles that are otherwise outside of their boundaries - such as

Marie’s dilemma about nudity. While upcoming actors may generally have to contemplate

whether certain projects are worth their time or worth straying from their principles for, it is

evident from the interviews that the amount and range of quality characters or leading

characters are sparse for people of color. Allison, the white actress, agrees with this, again by

71 stressing the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of the status quo. In conclusion, the interviewed actors of

color experience worse odds for staying employed as full time actors or for playing central or

complex characters in comparison to their white colleagues - even though they, in Marie’s

words, might ‘put in the same amount of work’.

The White Gaze: Racial Bias and the Power of Visual (Non-)Representation

This section ties in with the one above by further investigating the lack of non-white

representation among the informants – here, on a more emotional level, as well as the reasons

behind it. In accordance with recent quantitative research on diversity Hollywood (Hunt et al.

2017), the informants confirm that the most powerful decision-makers of the industry and the

majority of roles on screen are not only predominantly white, but also predominantly male

(Melania, Ali, Hannah, Angela, Travis). The Hollywood Diversity Report of 2017 concludes that

while films featuring diversity prove profitable contrary to popular belief, the white male

demographic at the top are not willing to change the status quo:

Hollywood’s diversity problem begins at the very top of the studios and networks, in

the executive suites, where decisions are made, about what gets made with what

size production and marketing budgets. Unfortunately, the individuals in these decision-

making positions (typically white men) are not motivated to share their power with

diverse women and men whose reservoirs of experience equip them with the perspectives

necessary to connect more effectively with today’s audiences. (Hunt et. al 2017: 74)

To that end, informants speak of a presumed location of whiteness and masculinity, or a white,

male point of view that is shaping much of Hollywood’s visual production. Blake notes that he

only thinks about race when he sees other Asians of a ‘familiar ethnicity’ (Blake, p126) on

screen. He feels as if Hollywood is pushing a white agenda, leading audiences to ‘believe that

ultimately the Western culture is always right and will prevail’ (Blake, p127) by not

representing people of color at all, or giving them stereotypical roles when they do. Not

portraying people of color ‘like rubbish’ (Blake, p129) is important, he argues, as Hollywood

72 films ‘span the world’ and therefore hold the power and potential to shape racial discourses in

the public consciousness across the globe:

[...] each movie they make about terrorism or black gangs in a bad way only solidifies a

small issue into a major way of thinking. Hollywood movies are the modern day

propaganda for the West. It’s fun, it’s cheeky, but it really sets in stone some very wrong

assumptions about every other culture, other than their own. (Blake, p129)

Thus, Hollywood cinema operates within a ‘white racial frame’, (Feagin 2010, Jacobson 2015).

A media-transmitted worldview in which imagery of racial representations are

communicating culturally constructed and very differing meanings of different racialized

bodies:

This is a racial framing of society that combines racial stereotypes, racial narratives and

interpretations, racial images, language accents, racialized emotions, and inclinations to

discriminatory action to maintain a positive orientation to whites and whiteness and a

negative orientation to oppressed and exploited nonwhites (Jacobson 2015: 833)

The racial frame is easily internalized as it is repeatedly re-affirmed and normalized by mass

media and American popular culture (Jacobson 2015: 833). Both the white lesbian

writer/director-couple Hannah and Melania, and the black writer/actor Angela speaks about

instances where they caught themselves - to their horror - unconsciously copying the white

racial frame in their own manuscripts, making use of othering, racial stereotypes or

perspectives centering around straight, white masculinity:

I had an unconscious bias. Melania and I wrote a script together, it's a psychological

thriller. For the first two years the protagonist was a straight white man, and it was

because it felt comfortable. We've seen it before and I was trying to sell this movie. It

wasn't until two years that our producer, who is a black man, sat us down and said: “This

isn't working, the dialogue is shit, you don't connect with this character, he doesn't work”.

[...] I think that it's interesting that I'm always talking about diversity, and here I am

73 writing a script with a straight, white, male protagonist.(Hannah, p161)

I made the white girl the nice girl, the heroine, the savior, and I made the black girl the

angry woman, and I made the Latina girl the asshole. My friend e-mailed me and said:

“What are you doing? You just wrote this and you hit on all the stereotypes”! We all do it,

and I was even trying consciously not to. I still did it. (Angela, p162)

Despite their enthusiasm for diversity and their opportunity to draw on first-hand

experiences from the perspectives of minority groups, they unconsciously proceeded to write

within the current racial discourse or from a white, male-centric perspective, discovering just

how internalized these exclusionary repertoires of representation were. Hannah mentioned

that she was trying to ‘sell’ her film, that it was ‘comfortable’ to repeat the familiar pattern of

whiteness and masculinity, hereby complying with the very idea that she is against; that a

white, straight, male protagonist is universally most relatable and sellable. An idea, that in

addition has been refuted by UCLA’s quantitative research on the relationship between

diversity and Hollywood’s bottom line (Hunt et al. 2017).

The white frame and its inherent othering of non-whiteness is described by informants almost

as a form of mind control with words and phrases such as ‘propaganda’ (Blake, p129),

‘indoctrination’ (Angela, p165), ‘ingrained in our brains’, (Melania, p162) and being

‘programmed to see our differences’ (Destiny, p153), implying a fixed quality of the racial

discourse, and a top-down power system that is difficult for the less powerful to change. As

Austin noted earlier, minorities are often not at the helm of the representational systems that

are used to publicly define them, but have to ‘ask permission’ (Austin, p97) to define

themselves, or to be represented as complex, whole identities. Maryann Erigha asserts that a

lack of diversity both on- and off-screen inevitably snowballs into unemployment and harmful

public discourses for minority groups:

74 ‘[...] lacking adequate representation and employment, racial/ethnic minorities and

women cannot effectively create work opportunities for other underrepresented

minorities in behind-the-scenes positions. Hence, the lack of diversity enables a cycle of

unemployment, leading to misrepresentation, which prohibits members of

underrepresented groups from manufacturing their own on-screen representations in

mainstream popular culture. (Erigha 2015: 87)

Drawing parallels between the categories of race and gender once more, I would argue that

the majority of Hollywood imagery presents a 'white gaze' that is comparable to Laura

Mulveys 'the male gaze'. A cinematic act of looking that automatically assumes white people

(in Mulvey’s case, men) to inhabit the active position of subject or spectator, while people of

color (or women) are portrayed as a passive object or spectacle for the visual pleasure of the

subject (Mulvey 1999: 808-809). Possessing the white gaze is being in possession of power, as

whiteness is ‘intrinsically linked to unfolding relations of domination’ (Frankenberg 1993: 6).

When discussing the power and impact of visual media, some of the informants mention how

racial representation in media - or lack thereof – had affected their sense of self-worth and

self-esteem. Marie and Selena recount how they did not feel beautiful growing up, because

they did not resemble the images and beauty standards of white women:

I remember growing up and it was all about blonde-haired blue-eyed women, it was all

about Pamela Anderson back then. [...] I think that race was always a thing. Growing up

the ideal woman was always a white woman and I didn’t feel pretty. I still don’t on many

days (Marie, p138)

I would look at the faces in visual media, compare them to mine, and decide that

the standard of beauty was on screen, and beauty was not something that my face

represented. [...] I know from personal experience is that my self-esteem has truly

suffered. And I am sure a lot of people who do not see themselves reflected on screen can

question how society sees them and subsequently where they are able to go in this society.

75 (Selena, p153).

Austin describes how he has turned his back on Hollywood in part because of their harmful

representation of black people, and ‘the disposability of people of color’s bodies’ (Austin, p98).

As a dark-skinned black man, he experiences feelings of powerlessness toward the

mainstream’s racial imagery and its messages:

It’s the mainstream, everyone watches it, and I’m in it. I’m in the mainstream, so those are

the images that stick to me, even if I may not agree with them. (Austin, p96)

Overall, he thinks what is signified by Hollywood’s racial imagery is ‘just forms of anti-

blackness at the end of the day’ , that watching films where ‘some black dude’ is ‘shot and killed

within the first 9 minutes of the film’ (Austin, p98), to him, sends a clear message:

That tells me something about the tropes and narratives of what my body means in certain

films. [...] That tells me that people are not listening, they are not thinking about how they

integrate certain characters or types of people in their narrative. Is that the plot point for

us? (Austin, p98)

Black characters being killed off is not confined to the on-screen images of action films, but

has deeper social and emotional implications for Austin; earlier in the interview, he

mentioned the gun violence and police brutality against black people, highlighting the racial

tension and contextual, current issues in American society: ‘[..] in America specifically, we

know there is a huge problem with that, police violence, just murdering young black men, women

and trans women… [Voice lowers]’ (Austin, p94). For these reasons, Austin attempts to take

back control over racial representations of black people by offering another narrative, an

oppositional gaze (hooks 1992). This topic will be elaborated in the final section of analysis -

“Oppositional Gazes, Spaces for Agency and Possibilities for Future Change”.

76 Notably, some informants had strong reactions while talking about specific issues of racism

and racial tension, and all of these informants had black heritage. Austin cursed and appeared

visibly angry or sad while talking about racial issues in America or the portrayals of black

bodies in mainstream cinema. Destiny seemed uncomfortable talking about her struggles with

being bi-racial, and Angela teared up and started crying as she told a story about her family,

segregation and Obama becoming president:

My mom is sixty and she grew up where they couldn't sit in the movie theatres, they

had to sit in the back. They had segregated water fountains and segregated schools,

and I don't think they immigrated until she was six or seven. [Tears up] [...] It's

hard. [Crying] My family went from segregation to education, making their own way, and

they never thought they would live to see a black president. Ever. And they got to see it.

(Angela, p165)

The effects of (non-)representation on a person’s confidence or sense of self-worth can be

both negative, as described earlier, or they can be positive. Angela recounts how seeing a high-

achieving, professional black woman on “The Cosby Show” in her childhood felt empowering:

Cosby showed me that I can be a lawyer, because Phylicia Rashād is a lawyer. I

thought I could be that, because she was that. That's our job. Showing diversity

and showing little kids that they can grow up to be someone. [...] It's exposure! It makes

things mainstream (Angela, p167)

The informants speak about Hollywood making content according their own interests and

worldview, writing and supporting ‘what they know' (Ali, Travis, Hannah, Melania, Blake).

They suggest that white, male creators and decision-makers are presumably not intentionally

erasing women and people of color from cinema, but rather it just hasn’t occurred to them to

include other perspectives, and thus, they are simply repeating familiar stories that represent

themselves:

77 If you're a straight, white dude who has never thought about it, how on earth would you

start thinking about active inclusion? (Melania, p162)

Travis, who is a white male director, explains how his two feature films were indeed centered

around his own experience. For this reason, they took place in a predominantly white, Jewish

setting where a racially diverse cast would be unrealistic to the setting (Travis, p100).

Whiteness has long reigned dominant as the default human image in America’s visual culture,

and the overwhelming amount of narratives that represent whiteness, white beauty or white

experiences are therefore not easily challenged, called into question or reflected upon by

white people themselves. As Dyer claimed, whiteness needs to be 'made strange' (Dyer in

Rothenberg 2005: 12) in order for white people to become aware of their own positionality

and the biased media images. Marie uses the term 'woke’ (Marie, p144) about white people

who have realized the imbalance of racial representation, implying that the fog of ignorance

has lifted for these individuals, that they have awoken from their slumber of colorblind

ideology or invisible whiteness and are finally ready to take action against it.

These personal testimonies imply, as I have claimed previously, that mainstream media

discourses can function pedagogically, and that the ability to identify with mainstream images

hold significance to the informants. Being able to identify, as well as not being able to, has

direct emotional effects - at best, one is empowered, at worst, dehumanized. As viewers, the

actors of color report applying both the images and the missing images of racialized bodies

that look like their own to their own life. Reading the on-screen images, recognizing repeated

patterns of representations (or a clear lack of representation) of the particular group with

which one identifies, becomes an act of learning. By understanding the images of their bodies

as signs that signify meaning, informants learn lessons and internalize messages about who

they are, who they are not, how much they are worth and what they can expect to accomplish:

They [codes] are a crucial part of our culture - our shared ‘maps of meaning’ - which we

learn and unconsciously internalize as we become members of our culture. (Hall 1997:

78 29)

Thus, on both practical and emotional levels, I would argue that the racial representations

matter to the informants. The white gaze mirrors the polarized racial discourse in society and

impacts the lives of people of color - both as viewers, and as employees in Hollywood.

The informants talk about film as a powerful, communicative medium, possessing the abilities

to shape self-identity, but also to open minds and change beliefs by teaching people about ‘the

other’ and the unfamiliar (Angela, Hannah, Melania). While I was in Los Angeles conducting

interviews, the Oscar ceremony of 2017 took place, and was discussed in some of the

interviews. Following the black/white dichotomy of America’s racial discourse, the media had

“Moonlight” and “La La Land” pitted against each other as the ‘black’ versus the ‘white’

nominees for “Best Picture”. Hannah recounts a story in which she and her older half-sister

watched “Moonlight” together:

I brought over “Moonlight” and I said it was nominated for best picture, and she

said, “Oh, is that because it's all black”? Then we watched it, in tears. She still talks about

it every time I see her. It was her favorite movie of the year. She also lived through

segregation, she was born in 1950. Her mind was completely changed. It really shut her

down. So films like that do make a difference. (Hannah, p166)

Here, she argues for the power of cinema and its representations of diversity being able to

‘show people something from a different perspective and teach them empathy’. (Hannah, p166).

While the blackness of “Moonlight” does hold importance to its story on black LGBT youth,

Hannah argues that it was not ‘just’ a black story, as her sister suggested, it was also a good

story, a different story. This experience had shown her half-sister that ‘a black story’ and ‘a

good story’ were not mutually exclusive categories. All informants value diversity in film as

something positive. However, as some of them argue, diversity should never take priority over

telling a good story (Angela, Ali, Marie, Travis, Destiny).

79 Though the informants have pointed out inequalities in opportunity, tired racial stereotypes

and a lack of diversity in Hollywood that all seem to favorize white people, most share a

general belief that decision-makers are not being intentionally racist. Rather, including

diversity just has not occurred to the overwhelmingly white, male decision-makers of

Hollywood yet, and thus, they are unconsciously creating or shaping narratives to fit their own

experiences as white people while leaving people of color at the margins. Whether the white

gaze is employed with malicious intent or simply as an unconscious frame, intention does not

change how the white gaze makes informants feel, and how misrepresentation or lack of

diversity can have a negative impact on people of color from a young age.

While covering these topics, some informants requested anonymity as they were critiquing

the system in which they operate and attempt to make their living. While most agreed that the

messages communicated by Hollywood to people of color were excluding, covertly racist or

discriminatory, questions of intentionality and unconscious biases towards white or light skin

were brought up, as well as market interests. However, the market interests and the question

of who has star power seems to be biased from the very beginning, as white creators usually

tell white stories, tend to hire mostly white or light-skinned actors in prominent roles and

award the majority of Academy Awards to other white people.

Oppositional Gazes, Spaces for Agency and Possibilities for Future Change

This final section of analysis takes into account themes of change, rebellion and agency

brought up in the interviews. Thus, this portion gazes towards a potential future of racial

representation, and concentrate on the factors brought up by informants as possibilities for

change.

Regardless of their occupation, gender or racial background, all interviewed subjects draw

primarily on examples from television when describing instances of diversity that they liked,

that was inclusive of certain racial categories or specific scenes that challenged or flipped the

80 script on racial stereotypes. Specific shows, like Aziz Ansari's ”Master of None”, was mentioned

frequently and by more than one informant (Marie, Ali, Travis), and informants were typically

engaged when referencing its scenes or topics. For example, Marie talked excitedly about a

scene from the show that challenged the aforementioned stereotype about Asian men being

awkward, nerdy and unattractive to women:

There is a character in that show [Aziz Ansari’s “Master of None”], he plays the hot

friend and he’s just an Asian man. And they don’t talk about it, they’re just like “All women

love you”, they say things like that to him. It was such a revolutionary thing, to normalize

things like that is huge. (Marie, p144)

She laughs as she recounts another scene with direct quotations. She describes how an Indian

actor is asked to sound ‘more Indian’ at an audition, and relates it to her own experiences of

having to prove and perform her Asianness according to white people’s stereotyped idea of

which traits signify racial authenticity. Both Blake and Marie also mention the series “Fresh Off

the Boat” about an Asian family, and Blake praises it for its relatability and for discarding the

stereotypes about Asians as ‘submissive and quiet’ (Blake, p128).

When asked to compare the racial representation in the different media, television is found

more diverse than cinema (Ali, Travis, Marie, Allison, Destiny, Angela, Hannah, Melania). Some

of the actors of color reported finding more work in television compared to cinema (Marie,

Dominique, Destiny). In my autoethnographic notes from my time in Los Angeles, I also made

a note that TV commercials were surprisingly racially diverse, compared to commercials on

billboards in public space (See Appendix 4). Television commercials featured interracial

couples and family constellations without making use of stereotypes or draw attention to race

other than simply making people of color visible. Destiny describes seeing more interracial

families with bi-racial children on television, a family structure that represents her own,

comparing her own appearance to the representational images:

I’m seeing the black girl with my texture of hair, with her Caucasian husband, we’re

81 seeing that. And their kids are obviously of a mixed race as well, they have big blonde

curly afros. I’m seeing so much more of that represented in commercial television and

Shonda Rhimes’ Thursday Night TV Takeover. New media is taking things in a different

direction, they’re getting out of what is stereotypically seen on major network tv shows.

(Destiny, p150)

These are examples of representation that informants would like to see more of. Diversity that

is not forced, but a naturally occurring part of a great story, mirroring the diverse racial

makeup of America.

Another frequently mentioned subject was the screenwriter and tv producer Shonda Rhimes

and her colorblind casting policy (Angela, Destiny, Melania, Marie, Hannah). The

colorblindness at play here is not to be confused with the colorblind ideology described by

Jacobson. Rhimes’ blindcasting is a conscious decision of opening up casting to every possible

ethnicity rather than writing roles with one specific racial position in mind. Angela calls

Rhimes ‘a trailblazer’ (Angela, p170), Destiny mentions how she ‘loves Shonda Rhimes for her

blanket ethnic casting’ and not being ‘afraid to have two girls with big afros in one scene’

(Destiny, p150). Hannah, as a director, felt inspired by Rhimes’ approach, deciding to avoid

applying racial categories to her characters beforehand in an attempt to avoid subconsciously

labeling them with the stereotypes or the white gaze:

I'm writing a script right now that's essentially colorblind. I have ideas but I want to be

open-minded in the casting. The idea is that we'll write for the actor, so we're writing the

dialogue, but once they're cast we'll write it again to suit their style and their voice.

(Hannah, p161)

Ali mentions that even reality tv, despite being rumored to be ‘bottom-dwelling cockroaches

appealing to the lowest form of humanity’ (Ali, p122), are performing better than Hollywood in

terms of racial representation.

82 I thought that these observations, combined with the expressions of the informants, was an

interesting point to include, as it suggests that television is considerably more inclusive to

people of color compared to Hollywood cinema. The positive reactions from informants

suggest that many prefer the racial discourse and opportunities available to them in television.

This, combined with rising protests and boycotts of the archaic portrayals of race in

Hollywood cinema (see first chapter of analysis) might foreshadow a need for change in

Hollywood's future, an attitude adjustment towards race. Ali and Hannah mentions streaming

platforms such as Netflix, Hulu and Amazon, and how ‘marketing is already built in’ (Ali, p125)

and ‘you are able to reach your audience much quicker’ (Hannah, p163) on these platforms

compared to cinema. On this note, a comparative analysis of television versus cinema would

be ideal for further research. While this chapter has room for no such business analysis, it

merely attempts to gaze toward a potential transformation of racial representation in

Hollywood based on what has been expressed by the informants.

Travis and Ali mention actions that are currently being taken to include more diversity in

cinema, such as the union SAG-AFTRA that offers a diversity incentive for low-budget

filmmakers (Travis, p103). The incentive applies if the project in question qualifies for their

criteria; that a minimum of 50% of speaking roles are cast with actors who are either women,

60+ seniors, performers with disabilities or people of color (Diversity-In-Casting Incentive

Information, Sagaftra.org). Ali speaks about Hollywood’s important market in China, and a

new rule that has been imposed; China will not distribute Hollywood films unless the films in

question include an Asian character: ‘[...] the Chinese have basically said: “We want positive

portrayals of Asian people. We want to be proud of what we’re seeing on the screen and we’re

just not going to let you distribute it unless there’s an Asian character”’ (Ali, p117). This, he

explains, is why newer blockbusters like “Suicide Squad” and “Star Wars: Rogue One” included

Asian characters. While stressing that he is glad to see more minorities, he also feels like it

‘seems so foreign to have an Asian character because quite frankly we’re so used to all the

83 characters being white’ (Ali, p117). He questions if this is the way to include more diversity;

denying consuming the films altogether if they do not reflect what we want to see:

I would like to say that the inclusion of Asians into all these blockbuster films was a result

of Hollywood saying: “Let’s capture a better diversity”. It wasn’t. It was because China

armwrestled them. (Ali, p117)

While denying distribution and applying diversity quotas might seem excessive and forced to

some informants, it presents a position of agency regarding the white gaze’s previous

portrayals of people of color. And, since finances and distribution are at stake, Hollywood is

now paying attention, even though minority groups have protested lacking or harmful

representation for decades (Freydberg 2004: 265). However, in the case of China’s rule,

capitalism is still the deciding factor, and less powerful racialized groups without distribution

to trade will presumably continue to be unseen. This inclusion of Asians into American cinema

does not present an artistic choice or, as Ali pointed out, convey Hollywood’s sudden

benevolence towards Asians. Rather, it shows that Hollywood no longer has monopoly on the

racial discourse, but that this same discourse is still being negotiated by people in positions of

power.

People with no political or financial agency in Hollywood, however, are finding other

opportunities for agency, other ways of challenging the white gaze. Hannah suggests that

“Moonlight”’s success at the Oscars was influenced by last year’s massively trending hashtag,

#OscarsSoWhite (Hannah, p166). Ali points to the importance of voting with your dollars,

voicing your opinions across media platforms and actively consuming the representational

images you want to see more of:

Everything we do today is recorded, every decision we make over our smartphone, our

DVR, somewhere, someplace it is recorded, it is noted. The way we consume things today,

our overall consumption has never been better archived than it is today. And that’s what

a lot of decisions are based on. So if there is a movie with minorities and it’s positive

84 portrayals, go buy that ticket, join their Facebook page, join their Twitter, retweet their

tweets. That’s the best way to support these projects. [...] That’s the best way to show

Hollywood what you want. (Ali, p125-126)

According to bell hooks, consuming and engaging the images of mainstream media is to

participate in their portrayals and representations of racialized bodies, particularly the black

body (hooks 1992: 117). She notes how independent black cinema challenged the

mainstream’s perception of blackness by offering an oppositional gaze, a black gaze

In part, hooks argues that black films came to be ‘as a response to the failure of white-

dominated cinema to represent blackness in a manner that did not reinforce white supremacy’.

(hooks 1992:: 117).

Austin is the organizer and curator of an event that showcases black gazes and black

spectatorship as an oppositional gaze and as an alternative to the mainstream images of

blackness in Hollywood. Frustrated with Hollywood’s ‘white people telling black stories’

(Austin, p94) and the overwhelmingly one-sided representation of blackness as ‘victimhood-

narratives’, ‘the urban black body’ or as ‘historicized in really weird ways’ in films about slavery

or the civil rights movement (Austin, p97), Austin wanted to create ‘a black space’ (Austin,

p95) by curating and showcasing independent work made by black creators, and encouraging

audience members to discuss the films after each screening. His film screening called “The

Black Aesthetic” takes place at a bookstore and has a different each season. The first season,

he explains, was centered around black female directors and their work, or the

representational images of black women in film (see fig 9).

85

Fig. 9. The film programme for the 2016 edition of “The Black Aesthetic”

film screening, curated and organized by Austin.

Austin talks about the next season of “The Black Aesthetic” being more of a workshop,

focusing less on content and more on the craft in an effort to encourage black youth to voice

their artistic talent, learn how to create films independently on a shoestring budget. Thus,

“The Black Aesthetic” offers a way of looking that counters the mainstream - an oppositional

gaze in bell hooks’ terms - a space for black artistic sensibility and for black people to tell their

own stories and create their own representational images:

Spaces of agency exist for black people, wherein we can both interrogate the gaze of the

Other, but also look back, and at one another, naming what we see. (hooks 1992: 117)

In the interview, Austin used a similar vocabulary to that of hooks. In the quote above, she

mentions the ability to ‘look back’ at the other (here, ‘other’ is understood as whiteness or that

which is not black). Similarly, Austin talks about ‘pointing back’ at Hollywood and white

portrayals of blackness by creating independent, and in his opinion, better, narratives:

Why not just make your own shit? Build the sisterhood, build the community. That is

where it’s at, that is way more fulfilling. You will make interesting work that is literally

not even in their paradigme. You will make great work amongst yourselves. And

emotionally, you will figure out how you point back. (Austin, p97)

86 Throughout the interview, Austin uses words like ‘fulfilling’ (Austin, p98) to describe creating

independent work outside of Hollywood and engaging with other forms of racial imagery.

Quite literally, this is indicative of the visual pleasure of black spectatorship, and the ‘pleasure

of resistance’ that comes with critically challenging the status quo of racial representation:

[...] the acts of analysis, of deconstruction and of “reading against the grain” offer an

additional pleasure - the pleasure of resistance, of saying “no” [...] to the structures of

power which ask us to consume them uncritically and in highly circumscribed ways.

(Kuhn in hooks 1992: 123)

As Austin talks about Julie Dash’s film “Daughters of the Dust” from an earlier season of “The

Black Aesthetic, he describes its multi-faceted portrayals of a group of black women vividly

and tenderly:

Later in the series I have another great film, “Daughters of the Dust” by Julie Dash

that tells the story about these Geechee women. It’s sumptuous, warm, the lighting is

absolutely amazing. You could say it is a more spiritual film in some ways [...] She is

trying to drill down by using the black experience of these specific types of black people,

she gives us this myriad of intergenerational love, generations of family and how they

transmute trauma, forms of resistance, joy and community. (Austin, p95)

This description of black female representation portrays black women as subjects, and

complex, human creatures, and is sharply contrasted to the one-dimensional ‘loud and

obnoxious’ (Angela), ‘rough’ (Destiny), ‘stubborn’ (Dominique) or ‘sassy’ (Allison) women that

have been described by the other informants as Hollywood’s image of the black female.

87 According to Hannah, indie film is ‘exploding again’ (Hannah, p163) because the studios keep

making superhero blockbusters, and Angela explains how acting in independent films is an

important stepping stone into Hollywood:

‘nobody will love you before indie does. Every minority is begging to get through the

door.’ (Angela, p159)

For this reason, establishing spaces for consuming and crafting one’s own racial narratives,

might be able to slowly change the status quo, by allowing a diversity of spectator positions to

craft a diversity of stories with a diversity of on-screen spectacles, as ‘Every narration places

the spectator in a position of agency’ (Diawara in hooks 1992: 117). Thus, finding and building

community with other minorities and telling your stories and creating your own

representational images is a small way of exercising agency and resisting participation in the

harmful images ascribed to your racial category as ‘other’ by dominant white racial frames.

Rather than asking permission or attempting to ‘guilt whiteness into looking at us and paying

attention to us’ (Austin, p97), Austin proposes an oppositional gaze, and, taking into account

the rising interest for diversity and complex characters, an attitude that might help transform

the Hollywood industry, if perpetuating images of hegemonic whiteness and racial caricatures

are no longer deemed profitable and hence acceptable in American society and beyond.

Therefore, I would like to give Austin and his philosophy of resistance the final word in this

analysis of images and discourses that have surrounded his and other people of color’s

existence in America’s cinematic visual culture, hoping that they will inspire critical

reflections on positionality, authority and mainstream racial imagery within the reader:

‘If you ignore the institutions, they will either fade away or they’ll have to listen.’

(Austin, p97).

88 Conclusion

Hollywood’s racial representation of people of color has largely been informed by notions of

racial difference that can be traced back to slavery and colonialism: binary systems of meaning

that construct racial differences as polar opposite species and divide people into hierarchies

by ascribing superior or neutral traits to the white category, and inferior, threatening or

foreign traits to any other category.

While conditions for people of color have improved, the underlying assumption that whiteness

equates to normality, whereas non-whiteness equates to ‘the other’, still permeates

Hollywood’s racial imagery. Whiteness is portrayed as a racially invisible or non-existent

position; it is represented as the most essential and common human experience, unbound by

harmful, if any, racial caricatures relating to being white. People of color, on the contrary, are

defined first and foremost by their racial category which determines what roles are

considered appropriate for them. Thus, the cinematic narratives revolve around white

experiences, and people of color are rarely presented as protagonists with nuanced

characteristics and experiences, but instead represent narrow assumptions that white people

have about them. At best, the actors of color describe finding work as minor or supporting

roles, at worst, the roles are clichéed, stereotyped or outright offensive. This in turn affects the

actors of color’s work opportunities, since nuanced or leading roles are 1) extremely rarely

available, and 2) when they are, limiting notions and performances of race usually become

part of the character, or 3) a white or light-skinned person is racially cross-casted in a role that

could otherwise have been played by a person of color. This also affects people of color as

viewers, implying to them that their bodies, beauty, experiences or accomplishments are not

appreciated, and not worth seeing - unless these stories are retold within a white(r) racial

frame. Hollywood’s imagery is saturated in a bias towards white stories and white or light-

skinned stars that emulate Eurocentric standards of beauty. This renders people of color -

especially darker-skinned people with coarser hair textures or less Eurocentric facial

structures - unattractive and unworthy of prominent roles, reducing them to play out lower

status roles and harmful narratives, or erasing them from cinema completely - even in

89 narratives that claim to represent them. This was exemplified by the case of “Nina”, in which it

was considered appropriate and favorable to cast a light-skinned African Latina in blackface

and a prosthetic nose rather than a black woman with features resembling Nina Simone’s.

Casting Scarlett Johansson as the (Japanese) lead in the remake of “Ghost in the Shell”

presented another way of whitewashing a narrative that could otherwise have been a perfect

opportunity to represent Asian women to viewers, while also giving an Asian actress an

opportunity to play that elusive nuanced and leading role.

While this racial hierarchy might be enforced and perpetuated unintentionally by Hollywood,

the consequences clearly affect people of color in terms of self-esteem and job opportunities.

However, the racial discourse outside of Hollywood cinema is changing - slowly but steadily.

The informants describe television as the trailblazing medium for intersectional diversity, and

highlight the importance of consumers taking action against harmful narratives by using the

tools available to them. By consuming media critically and strategically, by vocalizing issues

regarding diversity and by sharing and liking favored representations on social media. And, if

all else fails, by building a community committed to gaze towards alternative racial imagery, to

learn the craft of cinematic narration and to produce their own representational images of

their complex experiences not only as people of color, but as people, period, independent from

Hollywood.

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Fig 1: Motoko. Still from “Ghost in the Shell” (1995).

http://www.herogohome.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/GhostinShellKusanagi.jpg

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controversy/

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Shell”.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/02/scarlett-johansson-responds-to-

ghost-in-the-shell.html

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Shell”.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/02/scarlett-johansson-responds-to-

ghost-in-the-shell.html

Fig 5: Major Motoko Kusanagi in “Ghost in the Shell” 1995.

http://reappropriate.co/2017/04/review-i-watched-ghost-in-the-shell-so-you-dont-have-

to/motoko-kusanagi-window/

97 Fig 6: Portrait of Nina Simone.

http://cdn1.umg3.net/thejazzlabels/uploads/2014/08/Nina_Simone_1965.jpg

Fig 7: Zoe Saldana as herself (left) and in blackface as Nina Simone (right).

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centric-entertainment-zoe-saldana-transforms-as-nina-simone-in-nina-zoe-

saldana.jpg.sharingimage.dimg/030216-centric-entertainment-zoe-saldana-transforms-as-

nina-simone-in-nina-zoe-saldana.jpg

Fig 8: Still from “Gone With the Wind”. Mammy, played by Hattie McDaniel

(right) helps dressing Scarlett O’Hara’s, played by Vivien Leigh (left).

http://cdn.natemat.pl/fa373e6ce8ed37acdd988ca8c4038e43,780,0,0,0.jpg

Fig 9: The film programme for the 2016 edition of “The Black Aesthetic”

film screening, curated and organized by Austin.

http://wolfmanhomerepair.com/news/2016/9/22/black-aesthetic-film-series-schedule

98

Appendix 1: Danish Communication Article

POLITIKEN

______

KULTUR 28. JUN. 2017 KL. 12.00 Hvorfor så hvid,

Hollywood?

Ny kvalitativ undersøgelse fra Roskilde Universitetscenters Institut for

Kommunikation og Humanistisk Videnskab påpeger problematikkerne ved

Hollywood’s racesyn.

Verden er ikke sort/hvid. Den er heller ikke hvid. Dette er en af præmisserne i en ny

kvalitativ undersøgelse fra Roskilde Universitetscenter. Gennem flere

forskningsinterviews med skuespillere og filmfolk fra Los Angeles, har Rosa K.

Lembcke påpeget nogle knapt så rosenrøde forhold i Hollywood’s drømmefabrik.

Os og dem

Vi kan ikke lide at bruge udtrykket ‘race’ i Danmark. Alligevel har vi travlt med at

99 distancere ‘os’ fra ‘de andre’, når vi eksempelvis debatterer integration og står stejlt på

vores danske (læs: hvide) værdier. Ifølge undersøgelsen “Being Seen and Unseen:

Racial Representation and Whiteness Bias in Hollywood Cinema” gør dette os/dem-

forhold sig også gældende i Hollywood. Lembcke beskriver hvordan en underliggende

antagelse om at hvidhed er den mest almenmenneskelige position, gennemsyrer det

amerikanske filmlærred og dermed ekskluderer alle ikke-hvide som ‘de andre’, de ikke

helt så almenmenneskelige.

Når verden vaskes hvid

Whitewashing er en tendens i Hollywood, hvor hvide skuespillere og stjerner spiller

ikke-hvide roller. Når Tilda Swinton spiller en tibetansk munk i Marvels blockbuster

“Doctor Strange”, eller når Scarlett Johansson optræder i rumdragt og kortklippet, sort

paryk som den ikoniske japanske figur Motoko Kusanagi fra “Ghost in the Shell”, så er

de med til at hvidvaske filmroller skrevet som asiatiske karakterer. Dette er

problematisk på flere måder, forklarer Lembcke. På den ene side mættes medierne

med billeder af hvide mennesker, som ikke alle seere vil kunne genkende sig i, og på

den anden side medfører hvidvaskning færre muligheder for ikke-hvide skuespillere,

der i forvejen har dårligere odds i branchen end deres hvide kollegaer. Hollywood låner

dermed gerne historier eller aspekter fra andre kulturer, men uden at ville

repræsentere de mennesker, hvis kultur de låner. De roller, der er til rådighed til ikke-

hvide spiller overvejende på racistiske stereotyper, der kan føres tilbage til krig,

kolonialisme og slaveri. Med kombinationen af hvidvaskning og stereotyper

argumenterer Lembcke for at Hollywood tegner et verdensbillede, der er med til at

opretholde os/dem-forestillingen og hvidheden som magtfuld norm - en norm, der

giver privilegier, og ofte er usynlig for hvide mennesker selv, før den udfordres.

100 Det kan ‘vi’ blege danskere tænke over næste gang vi går en tur i biografen, og hvis

kritisk stillingtagen til Hollywood eller et mere nuanceret racebillede ikke huer os, må

vi jo spørge os selv:

”Hvad er det egentlig, vi er bange for at miste?”

Appendix 2: Danish Communication Plan

Som det fremgår af formidlingsartiklen, er den tiltænkt det danske nyhedsmedie Politiken og

specifikt deres kultursektion. Her kan læseren møde den, enten som webartikel eller en artikel

i den trykte avis. Politiken er kendt for at formidle blandt andet kulturstof til sine læsere, der

udgør en bred målgruppe. Selv definerer Politiken sig som en avis, der ‘[...] tilstræber

mangfoldighed i valg af emner og kilder for at afspejle befolkningens sammensætning hvad

angår køn og etnicitet, så dels flere kvinder, dels flere borgere med anden etnisk baggrund end

dansk kommer til orde i Politikens journalistik.’ (Politiken.dk - Om Politiken) Med andre ord er

Politikens målgruppe én, der bliver eksponeret for, og dermed må anses som en målgruppe,

der deler specialets interesse for kultur, mangfoldighed og intersektionalitet.

Formidlingsartiklen skal appellere til disse læsere, og gør brug af forskellige virkemidler for at

opnå dette. Sammenlignet med specialet er sproget i formidlingsartiklen holdt i en mindre

akademisk tone, der minder mere om uformelt talesprog, men dog stadig fremstår sagligt.

Dette skyldes at indholdet skal kunne formidles til den brede skare af læsere uden at virke

enten intimiderende eller fordummende. Brugen af ord, der refererer til popkultur, såsom

“Hollywood”, “Scarlett Johansson”, “Doctor Strange” og den aktuelle “Ghost in the Shell” er

naturligvis emner, der findes i specialet selv, men disse emner vil være genkendelige for de

fleste læsere. Genkendeligheden og aktualiteten formodes derfor at fange deres

opmærksomhed og skaber en indgang fra popkulturen til et mere alvorligt emne. Specialet

behandler mange temaer, men emnet om hvidhed som norm og hvidvaskning af store

101 blockbusters er her valgt ud, da de begge kan forbindes til en dansk kontekst. De film, jeg

nævner, ses også i Danmark, og problematikken omkring ‘usynlig’ hvidhed kan ses som en

fælles, vestlig problematik, som også danskere har del i, og kan handle imod.

Brugen af spørgsmålstegn i overskrift og afsluttende bemærkning er kommunikative greb, der

henvender sig direkte til læseren, og beder denne forholde sig til noget, opfordre til diskussion

og refleksion. Desuden henvender spørgsmålet sig også til Hollywood, og forvarsler dermed

selve budskabet med artiklen og temaet for specialet

- kritisk stillingtagen til Hollywoods racerepræsentationer.

Appendix 3: Interview Transcripts

AUSTIN

Age: 31

Gender: Male

Occupation: Organizer of an independent film screening called ‘The Black Aesthetic’.

Identifies as: Black or African American

Maybe just for the record you could state your age, name and occupation?

My name is Austin, I work part-time here at the bookstore, and I also do creative project work with the

black screening. I’m working on a book called ‘The Black Aesthetic season 1’, and I’m also a cook.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, so I also work in a kitchen. I used to work in an ad tech, actually, but I did not like it. That didn’t

work out, so that’’s how I kinda came here and met Justin who owns the place and pitched him the

concept of an independent black cinema screening. That’s how I moved into this.

So do you have a background in film?

Oh, no, not at all. I actually studied philosophy and entrepreneurship.

Oh, really?

Yeah [Laughs] But I do have a high interest in representational images, just critically thinking through

what they are doing, what does these images mean socially, politically, and how do we create new

102 alternatives? Just finding a multiplicity, you know. It’s interesting when you talk about Hollywood

representation. What I am always trying to articulate is the black aesthetic, which means the

multiplicities of black people creating and telling their own stories, and the different representations

that can come from that versus the kind of institutional representation that we often get. For me, I have

kind of for turned my back on it in a lot of ways because it is so problematic. There is the intersection

with capitalism at the same time, because Hollywood is about making money, so being a black

filmmaker trying to make Hollywood films in that system is just very compromising in a lot of ways.

For me, questions of what Hollywood is doing I am kind of uninterested in. With white people telling

black stories, they get it right sometimes, but they also get it wrong. I am more interested in the kind of

DIY independent shoestring budget black filmmakers, young black creators, just trying to find out what

is their story and what is their legacy. How do they make their film that I am now seeing? I want to

preserve that moment and showcase that. Not having a big budget, but still telling an intimate story.

For me, that is really interesting, specifically when we talk about black representation.

Can you tell me more about “The Black Aesthetic”, the film screening?

Yeah, I can tell you more about that. It just came out of that specific grounding, like, “Who is making

independent work?” The first season I did was specifically about black women filmmakers or just the

image of black women in film. A film that I screened was “Bush Mama” by Haile Gerima. It was a UCLA

film thesis, first film, and it was shot in black and white. It tells the story of Dorothy, who is a welfare

mother in LA. That is really interesting. It tells her story of becoming politically apathetic and how

towards the end of the film she becomes radicalized in a remarkable ending scene, actually. It deals

with police brutality, black poverty, feelings of political agency and how you are to negotiate that when

you are in this trifecta thing. And what is also really tremendous about this film is it has this

neorealism feel. The early part is very documentary, actually the opening shot is the LAPD bothering

Haile Gerima as he shoots. And in America specifically, we know there is a huge problem with that,

police violence, just murdering young black men, women and trans women… [Voice lowers]

Yeah…

So, yeah… But that is very, like, wow! There is already a history of that, and I’m seeing it! He also does

this wonderful intersection with religion and the black church, sacrifice, the almost mythological… it’s

just really archetypical images that are just like “wow”! Oh God, I forgot what was the question, but

yeah, for me it just deals with black women in representation. Later in the series I have another great

103 film, “Daughters of the Dust” by Julie Dash that tells the story about these Geechee women. It’s

sumptuous, warm, the lighting is absolutely amazing. You could say it is a more spiritual film in some

ways That is, for me, another moment of specificity. She is trying to drill down by using the black

experience of these specific types of black people, she gives us this myriad of intergenerational love,

generations of family and how they transmute trauma, forms of resistance, joy and community.That is

what interests me. My first season was very much focused on that, how do we look at the

representation black women in film, and how are they trying to figure it out. And we usually have

discussions afterwards, we get people in a circle and talk about it. I feel like for the most part we have

robust discussions around it, just asking people “what did you get out of this?”, you know. Just creating

a black space for that.

Alright. So what kinds of people come to these screenings?

Mostly black creatives, mostly artists, intellectuals, a bunch of young grad students, and I’ve got a

couple of film student. Mostly younger people in their 20s. For “Daughters of the Dust” I got a broader

demographic. It’s kind of annoying otherwise, I don’t want it to just be people who are like me. I

wanted to broaden it, make everyone see it. I don’t want it to be too intellectualized, like a gatekeeping

thing, so for the next seasons I am trying to think about how I can make it broader.

[A customer comes into the bookstore and requires Austin’s attention. The recorder is paused, then

turned back on]

Okay, so where were we? I forgot.

You talked about the film screenings.

Oh, yeah, the audience. I wanted to expand it, basically.

Do you also have Q&A’s, the directors coming, having the discussion with them?

No, not this time around. That is what I want in the future. For this upcoming season I wanted to pick

all local directors and invite them to do a Q&A, like you said, have discussions. Because what I am more

interested in now is their process, you know, how do they make a film, how do they budget for a film? I

want to direct it more towards a workshop session where we hear more about the process, less about

the content. I think it is important to know the work that goes behind it, the labour. To make a film is

very hard, but to do it independently is even harder, and to make sure your vision happens is

important. And I think people need to see it behind the scenes. Whenever I watch films like “Bush

Mama”, “Daughters of the Dust”... for them to make these films that last and still speak to us, think of the

104 work that had to be done. Especially shooting on film, that is expensive and time-consuming [Laughs].

So I am directing my work, my programming, more towards that. It’s two things. You have to engage

with the history that came before you and see who was great and didn’t get that chance to shine. At the

same time, you have to look at what is emerging and see how they are processing that history and

seeing themselves in the contemporary moment. Bridging those two things is very important to me.

We live in a weird society, like, how we consume images, often without paying attention. I want people

to know that labour is involved, artistic and emotional labour is involved. I think it helps people. When I

am vulnerable and tell you about my process, that might help somebody at the end of the day, to make

work.

So is the intention also to inspire other people to go out and create?

A hundred percent, oh yeah. There has to be practice in it. I don’t want people to have a circle jerk

about films and just talk about it. I think there are enough books on film theory and discussion, I’m

more interested in seeing what people are doing and how they are responding, not just responding, but

working outside of that. I try to focus on who is working now that are actually making the stuff that I

would like to see. You know, creating that utopia, creating that new black aesthetic. Because for me, the

black aesthetic is not just a set of principles. For instance, Arthur Jafa talks about that, he says that in

black America, specifically, black people are amazing dancers, we have a strong history in dance, an

amazing history in music, literature, you know. We’re geniuses in all those fields, but can we say that

there is a kind of sensibility that comes forth in work? There are black filmmakers, but can you say that

there is a black sensibility in their art? I took that question and I said: “OK, let’s research that.” Maybe

there is, maybe there isn’t one. But let’s try to connect all these different films, let’s try to navigate that

question and maybe make a manifesto later.

Yeah?

That’s kind of how I… yeah… No, sorry. I’m still thinking.

No, but that is very interesting. You talked about earlier how you turned your back on

Hollywood films and the mainstream media. Can you tell me more about that, and their

portrayals of blackness?

Yeah. I think part of the reason why I turned my back is also because I didn’t find them interesting. You

know? That’s weird to say, I’m trying to find a better way of saying it. [Pauses] It’s the mainstream,

everyone watches it, and I’m in it. I’m in the mainstream, so those are the images that stick to me, even

105 if I may not agree with them. I guess what I found is, I found the plots uninteresting, I found the

character development of people of color uninteresting. Some of the stories, I mean, when we look at

black bodies in film it is often historicized in really weird ways, whether it be the civil rights movement

or slavery. Just victimhood-narratives generally, or the urban black body... Like “Precious”, sometimes.

Have you seen that movie?

Yeah.

Why that story all the time? I’m not saying that we can’t have serious stories about that, but it always

seems in a performative gesture towards whiteness, like “How can we guilt whiteness into looking at

us and paying attention to us?” I’m not interested in that! I’m like, how do I collectivize people to feel

certain emotions and respond and go out into the world. I feel like often Hollywood doesn’t do that

when it comes to representation of black people. And that comes from both black and white directors.

It’s also this question of representation… If you want to be represented, you have to ask someone for

it, and if that person does not believe you exist, if you have to argue for your representation in

something that has historically not seen your voice as an active in that institution... Then why are you

- ? Why? [Throws out his arms in a shrug-like gesture] It’s like screaming when no one is going to hear

you. Why would I ask to be represented in something that does literally not configure me into the

process in the first place? It’s like women and patriarchy in a lot of ways. Why do women want to

access things that men literally did not conceivably build for you to be in? I think in those terms, too.

Why not just make your own shit? Build the sisterhood, build the community. That is where it’s at, that

is way more fulfilling. You will make interesting work that is literally not even in their paradigme You

will make great work amongst yourselves. And emotionally, you will figure out how you point back.

Once you work through your own shit, then you are able to have that voice. You will be like: “Wow, I

have this community of people who thinks these same things of differ with me on these things, but we

have this bridge work”. Now that I know myself, my lineage and what I am about, my history and

tradition, then I can maybe say “Hey guys. You’re not doing it right!” I don’t know. There are different

strategies for different people. Yes, you can go into Hollywood and do really well, we’ve got Spike Lee,

John Singleton, Ava DuVernay, we’ve got… I’m trying to think, there is, uh [Snaps fingers] and this

young guy, Bradford Young, he is doing really well. He won the Oscar for Best Cinematographer. I think

he was the first or second black person. But fuck the Oscars though, in a certain way! It took you that

long? There is a whole history of black cinematographers, like Charles Burnett. He’s amazing. He’s

106 done work for Haile Gerima. Arthur Jafa, he did cinematography of “Daugthers of the Dust”, a classic in

American cinema. What are the Oscars looking at? That’s the thing. If you ignore the institutions, they

will either fade away or they’ll have to listen.

So, would you say that is the intent of creating the film series?

Yeah, very much so. I’m just very interested in the idea of new settlements. Where is the edge? That is

where the real shit happens, at the margins. Well, for me, that is the most interesting this, bringing

these margins back to people. It’s been here, we just haven’t paid attention to it or preserved it.

You talked about the Hollywood portrayals of the black bodies in film and that is was maybe a

little tiring, so you went and did your own thing instead…

Yeah, do your own thing! It’s much more interesting and emotionally fulfilling. I could talk about how

shitty Hollywood is all the time and always be underwhelmed by the work consistently, and every now

and then there will be a bright, shining moment, or I could go make my own work and joining with

other comrades. And, well, not always win, but there is a consistency in that, making really interesting,

compelling work. If you organize it right, everyone will see it, you won’t have to ask for it, it will just be

there. It’s almost a sense of protest, you could say. You just have to go outside, I always think about

what is the outside. Having people know that they can do anything. There is not a single answer, there

are multiple answers, just like there are multiple filmmakers trying to telling multiple stories that we

all need to see and hear. So it’s about allowing multiplicity to speak, be heard and preserved, and to

transmute it for future people. Yeah. I hope this is making sense!

Yeah, it is! I also wanted to ask you about the effects of the mainstream images. What kind of

impact do you think they have?

Plenty of impact, oh my God. I might want to connect you to someone else, too. What do Hollywood

images do, what is their impact… it is an immense impact. It just is. It’s weird, you just have to… I’m

trying to say it the right way. I think the impact is almost dwindling a little bit, getting smaller… Yeah…

the effects are just forms of anti-blackness at the end of the day. White people think we are disposable.

I have an issue with certain films with the disposability of people of color’s bodies. I watched a film

with James Franco, and some black dude was shot and killed within the first 9 minutes of the film. And

I’m steeped in the images of “black people have lives and stories in their films”, so I can’t watch the rest

of it. That tells me something about the tropes and narratives of what my body means in certain films.

And that movie was made in 2000-something. That tells me that people are not listening, they are not

107 thinking about how they integrate certain characters or types of people in their narrative. Is that

[being shot and killed] the plot point for us? You know? That is really shitty, or those black character

tropes. There’s the professional black woman from “Scandal” or “How to get away with murder”, like

the Condoleeza Rice hyper-professional young black woman who seems impervious, or the magic

Negro - Morgan Freeman often play this - or we get the clown, the buffoon. And they all get modernized

in certain ways, so we just have to be critical. Black people get it, people of color get it. It’s more white

people engaging with these images. And they have, what is it, the manic pixie dream girl? That’s a

white woman movie trope that we need to get over, the hysterical woman. There are so many of these

tropes, and who is writing these scripts? All these white men! With people who don’t even engage with

people who are not them, they only engage with people that re-enforce their ideas about the world.

Fuck it, I don’t need that. And also just, be better writers! I’m sorry [Laughs] It’s just, get better at your

craft.That’s why I can’t watch trailers. I watched “I Am Not Your Negro” and in the trailers before the

film it was all these white protagonists, and one of them was based off of a novel and it was this white

dude going to the Amazon to find a lost city. Haven’t we done this? We’ve done this! [Laughs] You

know? White man conquers or tries to find something in the midst of the exotic other, and his issues

with his personal life. We know, we know! I saw the trailer already know what was going to happen.

That is so uninteresting and unoriginal.

So, I’m over the tropes. Be better writers!

TRAVIS

Age: 36

Gender: Male

Occupation: Film director, writer, producer.

Identifies as: White, American

Yeah, as I said, I’m just going to record now and if you want to be anonymous or something like

that, just let me know and I’ll just change your name in the transcript.

Sure. It depends what we ask, but as long as you ask me regular questions it doesn’t matter to me

[Laughs]. Let’s see how it goes, I don’t mind if you quote me. So what was this, your thesis?

108 Yes.

Okay! [Then talks to his dog] Birdie, stop biting me. No bites. Go lay over there.

[Giggles, taps on keyboard]

She wants to play. She’s like “Why do I have to sit over here”!

Yeah. [Laughs] Alright. Maybe you could just start by saying your age, gender and your

occupation?

Sure. I’m Travis, I’m 36, I’m from the United States and I’m an independent filmmaker, writer, director

and producer. Yes.

This part is about the racial representation in film, so maybe you can talk about if there are

certain races or ethnicities you feel lack representation in American cinema.

Sure. It’s important first to define different kinds of cinema, right? So in American cinema, if you want

to take the overall categories there are traditional studio films that are made by, you know, Fox and

Sony and Warner Bros., that play in all the big movie theatres which I go to sometimes, but I don’t work

in that arena as much as I work in more independent cinema. So, films that are made with a much

smaller budget usually and without distribution usually. They sell their rights, distribution rights, to

distributors once they have premiered at some film festivals, gotten some reviews, and a sales agent

has found a way to sell it to a distributor. The two feature films that I made were independent films,

smaller budgets, both under a million US dollars and they played at big film festivals, which is

fortunate. Not every film that is made gets into a good film festival. Not every independent film that is

made gets accepted to screen at a big festival. But if you’re fortunate to play at a big film festival called

The Market, and there are a few Market festivals in the US. All a Market festival is, is a festival that you

could go to, and distributors are there to see films and to buy them If you’re fortunate enough, I’ve

been fortunate enough with my first few films to make them independently, secure a world premiere at

a market festival where distributors are going to buy the films, and I gained distribution that way. My

two features both premiered at two North American festivals. My first film premiered at Toronto Film

Festival in Canada, which I would say is one of the five biggest festivals in the world and it’s also well-

known for distributors going to buy independent films or films that don’t have distribution. My second

feature premiered at South By Southwest, a film festival in Austin, Texas, and while it’s not as big of a

festival as say, Toronto or Sundance, people do go there to buy films. In Europe the biggest markets

tend to be Cannes, Berlin - the Berlinale, right? - there is Venice, and then there is

109 some smaller ones. In Asian it’s Busan, you know there is a big one in Busan, I’m pretty sure there must

be one in either Hong Kong or China, but Busan is probably the biggest. In South America there must

be some as well that I just don’t know about. [Laughs] But just to say, the two feature films I’ve made

are in the category for smaller budgets that hope to get into the public by selling at festivals. Those two

films don’t really have much ethnic or racial diversity in them, but I think that is more of a symptom

that I, for at least my first two films, have decided to tell very personal stories about parts of the world

that I know very well, because I either grew up there or near there, and that are not auto-biographical,

but inspired by things from my life. And the place that I grew up has very few racial minorities or

diversity. As I got older and moved to New York and Los Angeles, I experience it a lot more now, the

integration of all these different parts of life. For example, I speak fluent Spanish, I can get around in LA

by speaking Spanish because we have such a high Mexican population. So there are parts of my life that

I have not decided to make films about yet or that have not inspired films yet, but could, that have

diversity in them. But I’ve only made two films so far. The new film that I’m working on has a very

racially diverse cast. I’d say about half the cast members are black. We haven’t cast yet, but that is the

plan, and it also takes place in a part of the country that I am not from, so I’m branching out to a

different part of the country that is not based on my life. My first film takes place in the town I grew up

in, in Boston, and features a man with Down’s Syndrome that I went to school with, and he plays a

version of himself.

Oh, so you went to school with the actor?

Yes. Who has Down’s Syndrome! And I cast him as a young man with Down’s Syndrome in the film as

well, and he’s white. He’s a white man. I cast his mother as white, his love interest as white. The town it

took place in, kind of a small little town in the woods, that was very homogenous. The second film I

made also takes place in upstate New York where I went to college, near Cornell University. A little

town in the middle of upstate New York in the middle of the woods, and it has to do with a big family.

And he lead actor, I cast someone who reminded me of me because everyone else was blood-related.

The majority of the cast was related to each other except for the lead character’s girlfirend. But other

than that it was about a young man, his mother, his father, his uncle and his cousins and uncle and aunt

and all his relatives. So it’s about a big family. And in the family, once there is one white character,

because they are all related, they all had to be some version of white. White, Jewish men. I made a film

about a Jewish family. Also the two fathers that were brothers are both Jewish, so I had to make

110 everyone feel of the same family. The one role in my second feature film, where I was open to cast

someone who was of a different race was the girlfriend character. I looked at all different races for the

role, and the best actress for the role ended up being a white woman with red hair. Deborah Ann from

True Blood. But before we had Deborah Ann signed on, we had a dozen different actresses that we

were looking at, several of them were black, my girlfriend is black, and we were worried that It would

be a little too much like my life. But we were open to it! The film is fiction, even though it is inspired by

things in my real life. The lead character is from Boston and his parents are professors, and I’m from

Boston and my parents are professors, but I’m a filmmaker and the lead character is a chef. And his

girlfriend is a ballerina and my girlfriend is not. We took little pieces of my life, but not the whole

thing. We had to make sure it was a fictional film. So anyway, that said, with independent films in

general there are a lot of films playing at festivals now that have a lot racial diversity, religious and

ethnic diversity. And I think it’s becoming more and more important to film festivals, to program

things so that not only actors from different races and cultures, but directors. I think they are very

much interested in increasing the amounts of points of view and perspectives. This is not something

I’m defending or arguing against, but I’m just noticing almost a trend that film festivals are tending to

try to find underrepresented groups and give them a bigger voice.

Yes?

So for example there are a lot of scholarships and fellowships and financial grants that are put towards

female filmmakers, films about and for women, films about and for muslims, films that are actually just

about an underrepresented culture or race. (interesting choice of words! “for women/for muslims”?

otherness is at play here, but it is unclear whether or not he is quoting the funds or he is speaking from

his own views) I think also what’s interesting is a lot of foreign films - especially the ones that win

awards - are getting exposure here, I wish there were more. I love watching foreign films. If I’m going

to a movie, to the theatre, I tend to want to go to see foreign films. Maybe it’s just because I feel like not

as many many good ones come out here as they are in Europe. The cinema down the street is playing

“The Salesman” right now, which is the Asghar Farhadi film that won the Oscars for best foreign

language film, it’s from Iran. He’s one of my favorite filmmakers, he’s a really great Iranian filmmaker.

So I’ll go see that in the cinema this week if I’m going to see a movie. Because you don’t get to see a lot

of Iranian cinema on the big screen. I have Netflix and I can find it all on Netflix, but it’s nice to be able

to see that. In the independent film world you do get a lot of films made by white men about their

111 relationships and white people, but more and more I’m seeing a trend towards people trying to

diversify their roles. There are a lot of producers out here who are making films where their mandate

of their company is to give women and minorities money to make movies. There’s a company called

Gamechanger Films and I think that they only make and produce films for women directors. They don’t

have to be Asian or black, but they have to be a woman. If you look at the amount of male directors to

female, it’s very lopsided. You know? I think it’s an interesting time because it’s changing, the industry

is changing, but there is still a majority of films being made by white males in the independent film

world. In the studio world, probably even more. There are very few black men or black women

directing feature films on the studio level. Ava DuVernay is one, she did “Selma” on Martin Luther King.

I can name a lot more female filmmakers, actually, than I can name black or minority filmmakers, but

you have some. There are quite a few Latino filmmakers, directors. It’s very hard in the United States to

think of muslim American filmmakers, but there are some. Denzel Washington just directed a movie,

he’s a famous actor, so…Carl Franklin is another filmmaker, he is an African American director. Look at

Justin Lin, and the big “Fast & The Furious” movies. He’s Asian American. There are some. When you

talk about big budget studio movies, “Fast & The Furious” is a big one. Also John Singleton, who

directed some of them who is black as well. But there are… Without looking at the actual numbers,

there are more white male directors than probably any other group. [Laughs] There are even fewer

female directors, and even fewer minority directors as well. I think that is why film festivals and

independent cinema is important because there are probably more voices in those, but still, when you

see a film festival nowadays and when you look up who the directors are, at least half of them are

always white men. Now, inside the film, I thank that is where you are seeing a lot more changes going

on about different cultures. There is a film that came out last year called “White Girl”, it’s directed by a

female, she’s white, but it’s about a white girl who is starting a relationship with a Latino drugdealer in

Brooklyn or Queens. I think it is vaguely autobiographical about her life and when she lived in New

York, went to college and got involved with a guy. And you have a movie like “The Fits”, which is about a

young black girl and her brother who is training to be a boxer and she wants to be a dancer. It’s just

about their relationship. It is directed by a white woman. But it was one of the best reviewed films of

2016. I saw it in the theater and really liked it. It won some awards. Anyway, all black cast, it played at

Sundance filmfestival, it got distrubted. So there is that kind of thing happening, but it’s on a smaller

scale. One thing I will say, tough, is SAG, the union here, they offer an incentive called the diversity

112 incentive. So if you’re a low budget movie and your every penny is precious, if the percentage of your

cast makes that requirement, you can actually pay your actors less money and make your move. So

what the diversity clause does, if you have a bigger budget movie, if you have a diverse cast, the

amount of money you have to pay each actor stays relatively small because they want to incentivise

filmmakers to use diversity in casting. You have to qualify for it by looking at how many days each actor

works and whether they’re a woman or a person of color. It’s a big algorithm, it’s a big equation, but if

you qualify for it, it allows you to have a lower budget for your film. What SAG gets out of it is, they get

to have the movie get made and have a lot of representation. If your whole cast in African American,

you definitely get it, because you meet the 50% or whatever the percentage is. If half your cast if

African American and if you have women as well, you’ll probably get it as well. So there are things like

that in the country that can help. But as far as my experience, when I go to a film festival it is a very

diverse place, full of different films about different cultures, different races. But I think that is by

design. What the film festivals gets out into theatres is a different question, it all depends on what the

distributors want. Sometimes it’s not even tied to diversity but how good the movie is. Sometimes it’s

not even tied to how good the movie is, but how commercial the movie is and how much money they

can make for it. What tends to happen sometimes is, films that have a largely unknown cast of minority

actors tend to get labeled as a niche movie that they don’t think a wide audience would want to see, so

they don’t get as wide distribution. However, if you have a movie like ‘Get Out’ that just came out in

theatres here... it’s a genre film. It was made by Blumhouse Productions, they tend to do horror films

and those films are known to make a lot of money no matter who is in them because people come for

the horror or the thriller. So it’s a genre movie, and those tend to get distributed and do quite well. The

film cost 4,5 million dollars and its opening weekend made 30 million, I think. So it’s already proven to

do well because it’s not a dark drama about a poor family, a family sulk-like melodrama, it’s a thriller

horror film. The lead actor, Daniel Kaluuya, is black and I’ve only seen him on one other thing. He was

on the “Black Mirror”, the TV show on Netflix. Very good actor. But he and his best friend and one other

actor are black and the rest is white. It’s about a white girl bringing her black boyfriend home to meet

the family, and it then becomes a horror film.

[Laughs] Okay!

And it’s very good! [Laughs] It’s probably the best film I’ve seen, top 2017. It’s playing right down the

street, right here

113 I’ll have to check that out.

It’s really good. I would see it this week if you can, also because it is really about racial relations. It’s

like a Twilight Zone episode about the horror of, you know… it’s a social commentary, satire and

horror movie all in one.

Yeah?

It just shows that there are people trying very hard now to diversify a cast, but the movie is also about

the black and white relationship. You know what I mean? The director of it is black, he is a very funny

comedian who had a show on TV here for years, called “Key and Peele”. It’s sketch comedy show but he

is black and he and his partner are comedians who had a sketch comedy show. Maybe it’s kind of like

“Saturday Night Live”, but it’s on Comedy Central. It’s sketch comedy, so any sort of sketches that you

would see. They are usually social commentaries, they are very funny about pop culture or race or

identity, but it’s all very funny stuff. Political, like, they imitate Barack Obama a lot. They don’t do it

anymore because they are both doing movies now - one is acting and one is directing - but they are

both brilliant and he directed it. Another black director. Yeah, it’s definitely changing a little bit, but I

still think the majority is very much white men in both studio and independent films.

I thought about… I’ve seen the posters with Scarlett Johansson for “Ghost in the Shell” when I

came here to the city, and also the Nina Simone biopic “Nina” with Zoe Saldana where they put

her darker makeup.

Yes. And she is Dominican, right?

Yeah.

She’s not black. Or is she - are some Dominicans black, do they consider themselves black or no? They

are just dark Latinas?

I think they consider themselves mostly Hispanic or Latinas. She has dark skin, but it seemed

she was not thought to be black enough even though she considers herself black, because she

has a lighter skin tone -

Right. She’s not African American. She’s Dominican.

Yes, and there was a big outcry on the internet.

Right, because when you are playing a real historical figure with a fan base, it seems like why wouldn’t

you get someone who is actually that? I understand that. The thing that always is the answer to that

from the studio is that they want people to go see the movie, so sometimes they need to find someone

114 who can sell tickets.

So they find an actress who is more well-known?

Yes. I think that is why Scarlett Johansson was probably put into “Ghost in the Shell”. I don’t know much

about the book, but I know everyone was upset because that is a very Asian character. And they

couldn’t.. When finances and money is involved, that always wins the debate, because they are like:

“We are a business, we need to do something that will make us our money back”. And the artistic and

culturally correct way to do it is on one side. I think the goal could be to find someone who is

financially valuable and correct artistically, but sometimes those two things don’t match, unfortunately.

I’m not saying I’m for it, but I’m saying that is what the studios will say: “No one will pay for this movie

if there is not a big star in it”. And there are no big Asian stars. I guess there is maybe Zhang Ziyi from

China who could do it, so I guess you could make that argument. I don’t know if she’s famous enough

that she could make a lot of money in Asia, but would Americans see it? Who knows. I don’t know

enough about how much value each actor has. I know there is a formula where you take and actor and

say, “Well, they’re this famous in Asia, and this famous in Europe, so they’ll make us this much

money”.Scarlett Johansson is probably famous in all those places, so they are obviously greedy - or

smart, however you look at it - and want to make the most amount of money possible. What they are

forgetting, though, is that there might be people who will be upset by them taking an Asian character

and making that a white person. Which I think is something that is an absolutely understandable

concern and an argument. If I made that movie I would want to cast an Asian person, but the people

who are paying for the movie tend to have the final say. [Laughs]

When Scarlett Johansson accepted it, she was asked about the role. I think she didn’t elaborate

on race, but she thought it was a badass female character, so she’s thinking of it in terms of

gender and being a woman.

Yeah, it can be rare it is for women to have cool roles. A lot of times they just have to play the mom or

the girlfriend or the friend, they don’t always get to be the star and it’s a starring role. I think the

people in the studios deciding to cast a white actor instead of an Asian, I don’t think they consider

themselves to be racist. I don’t think they sit around trying to discriminate at all, I know that. Whether

they are prejudiced in their own mind is a different story. I mean, we all carry certain prejudices about

everything, and whether it is a conscious or unconscious thing, we live with those prejudices, not just

about race. But at the end of the day, I think that when a movie costs a certain amount of money or is a

115 big enough budget, they allow that to supercede. The need for financial gain outweighs their interest in

being culturally and racially diverse, which means that business is sometimes hard to mix with artistic

integrity and cultural sensitivity. It is unfortunate. But you wouldn’t make a film about Jackie Robinson,

the first black baseball player, and cast a white guy, right? They cast a black guy. But that movie is about

race. “Ghost in the Shell” isn’t about Asian American identity or Asian identity. I think that is also a

difference. The Martin Luther King movie, they did cast a British guy, David Oyelowo, a guy from

England who is not American, he’s British. But they cast him as one of the most important American

figures in the history of our country. Martin Luther King is one of the most important people ever to

live in America for so many reasons and he was played by a British guy. He is also a great actor, so he

was able to do it, but you could easily have cast Denzel Washington or Will Smith as Martin Luther

King. Maybe Will Smith is too light-skinned, I don’t know [Laughs]. David Oyelowo looks like him, so

that was part of it. So sometimes it is about the artistics, because David Oyelowo is not well-known, so

in that case the black director wanted someone who looked like him artistically and also acted well.

When they do a movie about Barack Obama one day, the first black American president, even though

he is half-black - his mother is white, his father is black - racially, that is a very important thing about

his biography, so I guarantee you they will cast an at least half black or black man to play him. They

won’t cast a white guy who just has a tan or a Dominican guy, because the movie really has got a lot to

do with race. But I think when the movie is not specifically about race, that is when you see a studio

specifically saying: “We need to make as much money as possible and Scarlett Johansson checks off all

the boxes of what we need and want, she’s famous, people pay to see her, she makes this much money”.

You know? That is part of it, I think. I’m not saying I agree with it, but I feel like that is what is

happening. If I was making a movie about a historical figure, I would want them to resemble them as

much as possible artistically. But because I am an independent filmmaker and usually makes films for a

much smaller budgets, I can usually win my arguments of getting the right artistic choice and not be

forced to make the right financial choice. That said, in my next two films I definitely want to include if

not cultural diversity, then at least have some sort of underrepresented community in the film. That is

also because I am trying to branch out from my own life and make films about something that I care

about that is not necessarily tied to my biography anymore. My first films were very tied to where I

grew up, which happened to be very homogenous, and I’m a white man, a half-Jewish, half-Catholic

white guy. My new film that I’m working on now, half the characters are black, half are women. More or

116 less. The film I’m working on after that takes place in the deep south, but it has a lot to do with the

LGBT-community, so there will be a little more diversity in a different sense in that it is an

underrepresented group in film. There are a lot of films now, especially in festivals, about sexual

identity and the LGBT community is represented a lot in TV now. The thing I’m curious about is when

Muslim Americans will have that. It is a community that is not really represented as well as blacks or

Latinos on film or on TV, and I think as soon as there are Muslim Americans that are peaceful and just

regular people like us put onto TV and film, it will do the same thing for people in Middle America who

don’t know anyone from that part of life and it will make them more comfortable. There is a new

sitcom coming out produced by Reza Aslan that is going to just have a regular American family that

happen to be Muslims. But people in other parts of the country who had never met a gay person, their

first experience with getting to know someone who is gay was watching “Will & Grace” or “Ellen”. TV

comes into people’s houses, it’s not a movie that you go to see. It is a very big part of people’s lives,

because it is right here, every day or every week. I think that might be a way to get better

representations of diversity much more so than even film. Because TV is inside your house and it is on

in the background whenever you’re doing work or making dinner. You know?

Yeah. So you compare TV shows to film… is one more progressive with diversity than the other,

or?

That is hard, because there is so much TV out there! There seems to be a TV show now for every

minority. The trick is successful ones that everyone watches. There is that show “Blackish”, I mean,

“Ellen” had a great run, “Will and Grace” had a great run. There are gay characters now on lots of TV

shows. There is the show “Master of None”, there are a lot of Indians or Indian Americans on that

show, that is Aziz Ansaris show, and it talks a lot about inclusions of Indians. They are always the friend

or the taxi driver, these Indian guys being cast as Muslim terrorists, because they look kind of, you

know, close enough! [Laughs] I think that TV definitely has a little bit more opportunity to do that than

films. Films are so much harder to make, they take longer, and people see less films, I think, than they

watch television. I still think it is happening in film, but I just think it is happening more slowly. In

certain areas there are so many films with gay characters that there weren’t before, but I think TV

made it a little less niche. Films are made for niche audiences a lot of the time, so you can make a film

that has to do with gay culture, but it is aimed at the LGBT community. The question is, can you make

mainstream big movies with a gay character, like a studio film? That seems to be harder to do. “Beauty

117 and the Beast” that is coming out soon has one gay character in it.

Oh, really?

Yeah, an openly gay character, and there is a movie theatre in the south that is refusing to show it

because there is an openly gay character. But Disney made that movie and it is the first openly gay

character in a Disney movie! And they have only had one black princess overall. I’m just trying to show

the difference between a movie made for the gay community or made for the black community and a

movie made for the wide community, but has diversity in it - because they are different things, right? A

film that is aimed to hit all the multiplex theatres and has cultural diversity or underrepresented

communities in it is maybe less common than, say, a movie made specifically for that group. Whereas

on TV I think they are represented a lot, but they tend to be represented by just being the friend, or the

taxi driver or the terrorist.

So, a kind of stereotypes or tropes?

Yeah, clichés. They are caricatures, they are not fully developed people. And who knows? Maybe a show

with fully developed characters about a Muslim family would do well, but right now we don’t know.

That HBO series “The Night Of” was very good because it shows a working class American Muslim

family. I think they were Muslim, you might want to check. But it was a great series. And he gets

wrongfully arrested for killing someone who he didn’t kill. And yeah, he’s a Muslim American. His

father drives a taxi, I forget what his mother did. It’s played by Ariz Ahmed who I think is a British

Muslim actor. Anyway, I think that there is still an opportunity to have more of that, but again it is can

you make it well and make people want to watch it? Again, “Ellen” was a really funny show, and then

she came out of the closet, and then, because the show was so good, people were like: “Okay”! But if

you make a show that is not that good or it’s just for a small audience, then it would be a little harder.

But if you have a show that is really funny or really exciting and really dramatic, and you also represent

underrepresented cultures and races, then I think that it the trick, because people want to see good

quality. If you make a show that is not funny, there is no point. It should be funny, too. If it is a comedy,

obviously! It’s very complicated.

[Audio cuts out]

118 ALLISON Age: 22

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress

Identifies as: White, Australian

Okay, so, Allison. I’m 22 and I’m an actress. I sing and dance as well, so I’ve seen different sides of the

industry I guess. So yeah, I’m… It’s a very short story but basically I went for an audition for a

voiceover,and I did not know this, I had not seen any drawings of what the cartoon was going to look

like. It was basically just a script and they e-maled me my lines and I went in. But the character was

black and I was auditioning for that. I didn’t know what to do in the room, because he wanted me to

put on a [makes quotation-signs with her fingers] black accent. I don’t know, that’s a very broad term.

Your accent obviously depends on where you grew up in the world and so on, so it’s just very strange

for me like a little white girl going in, like, a black cartoon character and it kind of makes you think, you

know, of all the cartoons we watch.. are all of them... Because with cartoons, you don’t see a face! Who

knows? It could be and asian cartoon and a white person for any of those cultural things. That was

really interesting to me, so… I don’t think I would have taken that if I did book the role, because that

was really strange to me, that is just completely not right.

So you didn’t know before you went in?

I didn’t know before I went in, no, not at all. There was, like… The way it was scripted sort of made it

sound like they were trying to make it sound like a black character, and then so when I went in there it

made a lot of sense as to what they were trying to do but it just definitely wasn’t executed right. I mean,

if they wanted a black character, they should have gotten a black person to do the voice. So yeah, that’s

interesting.

But how did they word it if they wanted you to sound more black?

I don’t know, I actually don’t even remember… I think they just said: “Well, this is an African American

character, so can you just put on that accent or what you perceive that accent to be?” That just sort of

played into all the wrong stereotypes of the world, just completely pigeon-holing those people because

who is to say that that one person has that one accent? It’s just, that was strange, and I didn’t really

know what to do, I didn’t know how to put on that voice and do that. And it was a few years ago as well,

so I wasn’t as culturally aware as I am now, I was a lot younger then. I’m a lot more educated in that

119 way now, but even then I could tell that I didn’t feel comfortable and I didn’t feel right doing that and I

just got out and…yeah, it was just really strange to me that they would do something like that. But I

guess it happens all the time, really.

Yeah. So did you go through with it? Were you able to -

I did the audition, I mean… I put on an American accent when I’m in the room, so I sort of just did that.

You know, I just did my American accent, and in my head I’m like: “I don’t feel… I don’t understand,

how somebody sounds as a certain race”, it didn’t make sense to me, so I guess I couldn’t really do what

they essentially wanted me to do. I just sort of did the audition and then left. I mean, I didn’t book it.

Because [laughs] obviously I’m not what they’re looking for. And then the other side of it is when

you’re an actor, you have an agent, right? You have an agent or a manager and you have the people who

put you out for those roles, and I think that’s also a really interesting side of this whole story, is like,

when an agent gets a brief that says a certain ethnicity or doesn’t say a certain ethnicity, where’s their

morals and what kind of talent are they submitting? I didn’t know that the character was black but I

wonder if my representation saw that and still put me forward anyway because maybe they were just

like “Oh, it’s just a voiceover, you know, they won’t see your face, so it doesn’t matter”, or … I guess

things like, yeah, with scripts and stuff, like if it specifies for a certain ethnicity do agent and managers

really just overlook that in order to get their person in the door. I think that’s another interesting side

of it, is who they submit to everything. Depending on the brief.

Yeah, definitely. So it kind of filters through them always?

Mhm. It always filters through them, yeah. I mean there’s definitely stuff that actors can submit

themselves for, different projects and you know, you’d hope that if an actor saw something they would

be submit themselves to the right ethnicity or whatever. But yeah, most things come through an agent

or a manager and they are really the ones who submits their talent. I’ve been an agent as well so I’ve

seen all the different briefs and sometimes they really do specify, like “We want asian but open to

everything” or things like that so there’s definitely circumstances where they do say they want an

ethnicity but they’re also open to everything else so then it’s like “Okay, you’ve got to submit the

ethnicity they want first, but also give them a wide range of different people because that’s what they

specified but then depending on the brief or the film you kind of just hope that they pick the right way

to project the film across, I guess. Yeah, and that goes back to what we were saying where the actors

see the brief and it’s very stereotypical, so I’ve seen a lot of that.

120 As an actress yourself what are your thoughts on, for example, Scarlett Johansson accepting the

role for “Ghost in the shell”?

I mean, that’s a tough one. I’d like to think that if I got offered something like that I would definitely

want to turn it down. I personally would put my morals over everything every single time. But I mean I

understand where she’s coming from with the whole wanting to portray a really great female role, but I

think there’s other movies she could do that in and because she’s so famous she gets scripts sent to her

all the time. I don’t think it’s a good enough excuse to do that role, personally. I think that there’s more

space for everyone that needs to be given,,, She didn’t need to take that role, basically.

What do you mean ‘need’?

For the money, or even if she wanted a strong female role the fact is that she can go and write one

herself. I mean, she’s Scarlett Johansson! she can either write it herself or she can call up one of her big,

massive writer-director-people and get them to write it for her. At that level I don’t think it’s necessary.

If she wasn’t as famous and it was another white girl, I mean, same thing but it would be a little more

understandable. Scarlett Johansson, I don’t understand at all why she took that role, really. Basically

that. [Pauses] Yeah, even still, even if I wasn’t big, I still wouldn’t take that. That’s not... I don’t think

that’s right for me.

No. [Pause] You mentioned with the other job that you had with the cartoon that now you are

more conscious about these things. Can you tell me more about that?

That has a lot to do with living in LA. I mean, I’ve lived here a few years but last year when I moved

over… I lived back home for 18 months and then came back here when I was about to turn… I just

turned 20, and so… I’m sorry, I had just turned 21 when I moved back. I just was obviously in a much

more mature headspace and when I came back, like, both my roommates are black and most of my

friends are people of color, so living with them was even more eye-opening. You know, if they go

through a bad experience in that kind of way they’re going to come home and tell me about it.

Yeah?

So I get to see it in a much more personal view and also with Trump getting elected last year and

everything, that brought forth a lot of racial issues and opinions and things like that from everybody in

my life. And I think that race is such a huge thing in America, it’s a really prominent factor of life

everywhere but a lot in America. I think just being here has really opened my eyes to all that and really

educated me. LA is also a very progressive state so everybody, well, most people are trying to be very

121 political correct and really educate themselves on the world and different cultures. I’ve been around

that a lot. Learning all those things, like how to be politically correct. I mean, you can just be here and

be like “Everybody’s equal!” and that’s great, that’s great to feel that but that is not the world we live in,

so you very much have to understand the right way to walk around the world and think.

So. [Pause] you’re an actress, so what kind of… Do you feel like there are certain roles that you

get pigeon-holed to as well? Or what kind of roles are available to you?

Not really. See, being white I get opportunities for all roles whether that’s right or wrong. Basically I’m

not limited at all, really. I don’t get too pigeon-holed. I can be quite versatile. I can make myself look

edgy or girl next door and that’s basically different characters. I don’t get pigeon-holed too much.

What about based on gender and not race as much? Do you feel like that’s -

Um, gender. [Pauses] Not too much. I mean, I have seen a lot of sexist briefs, things like that, but it’s not

obvious, you know. It’s not obviously insulting. It more a little bit like, maybe a brief will say: “She’s

pretty but not in an intimidating way”. And it’s like, what does that even mean? What are you trying to

do to females, just audition females and pick the one you like the look of? And then some of the nudity

and the sexual stuff, it’s almost expected. I’m okay with that stuff but some actors aren’t, and that’s

okay as well but it’s also a little frowned upon in the industry, like “Well, that’s part of your job, you

should just do it!” A lot of stuff like that for women, just really high expectations and just following

directions and doing whatever you’re told whether you are generally comfortable with it or not. I read

an article about a really old movie, I forget what it was, it was a male famous actor with her in it, but

they had a scene and basically during the scene the actor and the director had talked by themselves

and decided that they were going to physically sexually assault her in the movie.

Was that “The Last Night In Paris”, something like that? Where there was a rape scene?

Yeah, yeah. and they actually really sexually assaulted her and she had no idea that that was going to

happen in the scene. And the cameras were rolling and they just did it. She was like: “I felt so violated.

If that was something that was talked about and everybody was comfortable…” - I mean, I’ve done

scenes where I’ve been sexually assaulted, but it’s been very planned out and it’s been based on what

I’m comfortable on. But the fact that stuff like that happens in the industry, where women are sexually

assaulted just for the art or for the film, is just ridiculous.

So was it to have her real reaction for the film?

Yes, yeah.

122 Oh, that’s horrible.

Yeah. I might try to find the article and I can link it to you when I get home, but that was just really

interesting to me.

Yeah, definitely. [Pauses] Do you feel like certain - you talked about pigeon-holing for different

races. Do you feel like there are certain stereotypes where it’s not only about race but it’s also

about gender. Like, an Asian woman or a black man is more likely to play this kind of role or

this?

Yeah, definitely. I’m trying to think of some specifics, I can’t really think about it. Let me think. Okay,

here’s an example. My roommates talk about this, and I’ve seen it a lot in America. African American

women are always portrayed like angry black women, you know, they’re always really aggressive and

really fired up. Or maybe they’re really sassy or not as classy. They’re portrayed a lot like that, which is

just a massive stereotype. Asians are always really nerdy, and Middle-Eastern people are always

terrorist, they always get pigeon-holed like that. But definitely with the sexist thing, I’d say African-

American women a lot, the really sassy, thing, the really angry part. Yeah. This is actually an interesting

story and I’ll have to check about the confidentiality on this one, but my roommate and her girlfriend

are renovating the house and they got this guy from Craigslist and he stole a bunch of stuff and didn’t

do the job properly, so she opened a civil case and was going to sue him and everything, and then this

TV show [Real name of show is edited out for confidentiality] called her and they wanted her on the

show for the case. So they got there - this is why I’m not sure about confidentiality, because they had to

sign a waver saying not to say anything, but I might ask her and let you know. But she really wants to

write about it without breaching the contract, so maybe this is a bit of like… But don’t worry about it.

But she went in

Otherwise I can just cut out that bit of the audio.

Yeah exactly. I’ll let you know. But my roommate went in and she said that every single person at that

TV filming was black. Not contestants, but all the people with cases were black. And when they were in

the greenroom waiting to go in, the girl was basically trying to get them riled up to make it interesting

TV. She was like: “You have to get really fired up, you have to show that you care or they won’t be

interested!” So basically they were get these black people to act angry and to make them be perceived

that way on TV, which totally plays into this stereotype I talked about. (Confidentiality!)

Do you know, what was the idea behind getting them angry?

123 To have interesting TV, controversial or something, like maybe they have an argument. It makes the

people at home think it’s crazy or sit on the edge of their seat. Basically it was all for TV. It was all just

for the TV.

I thought about this as well with TV versus film. Because I talked to some people who brought

up that TV shows are maybe getting more progressive when it comes to showing different kinds

of diversity compared to cinema. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I agree with that actually. I don’t know why, maybe it’s because in TV they can cast more

characters so they can have a wider range of people and with film it’s just the one cast. So if they want

to make money on it, like the Scarlett Johansson thing, then they have to hire one big main actor or

two, however many they can get, to really market it, whereas with TV it’s like, okay, you can have the

big people because you can turn over the casting, introduce different characters. There’s a lot more

room for diversity, I guess, which is really great.

ALI

Age: 36

Gender: Male

Occupation: Film director,

Identifies as: Multiethnic, Part Latino, Part Indian, Part Mongolian/Himalayan. Has what he calls

“Muslim heritage”.

Religious background: Muslim.

Okay. I thought maybe for the record if you could first say what is your age, gender and your

occupation or your relation to the film business.

So my name is Ali, I’m male. Age is 36. I own my own indie film production company, so we develop,

produce and we also distribute movies. Me personally, I’ve worked in the capacities as a producer, a

writer and a director. I have one feature film under my belt which screened at AMC theatres, some

arthouse theatres and we had a nice Oscar campaign with it. And I’ve also won a lot of awards on the

film festival circuit, I think about 50, for both short films and my feature film, so yeah, that’s my

experience.

124 Before I started recording you talked about your heritage. How would you describe your

ethnicity?

Ethnicity-wise, I have Spanish heritage, so you could say some Latino. I also have what I would call

“Muslim heritage”. My father was born in India, my mother’s side of the family is

Mongolian/Himalayan, I have a lot of relatives in Pakistan. So for a lot of my career I’ve been identified

both slightly as having latino heritage and muslim heritage. And I’d say my films, some of them have

dealt with both of those heritages, so I think I have a pretty good perspective on how that got laid out

and what the reaction was to it.

Can you elaborate on how these films dealt with this?

Yes. I made a short film that won a lot of awards. It was called Rabia and it was a biopic about the first

Palestinian suicide bomber that was female. Not the first Palestinian suicide bomber, but the first one

that was a woman. And she was a woman who came from an Islamic background, certainly an Arab

background. In the film she renounces Islam, actually, and I feel like she did that in real life as well. But

you can definitely say that that was a Muslim-centric film because Muslims are often accused of being

the main perpetrators of terrorism. And I was actually excited to touch upon that subject, show the

world from her perspective what she thought of the matters and what motivated her to do the attack.

Also, although this film has not been made a lot of my connections in Hollywood have come as a result

of writing the biopic of Benazir Bhutto, the first female Pakistani prime minister, well the first female

prime minister of Pakistan. An incredibly story, and that script has opened a lot of doors for me, gotten

me a lot of development meetings. Granted, it hasn’t been made, but there is still a lot of attraction

behind it. And in terms of my work with Latino heritage, I’ve had a couple of short films that touch

upon it, but certainly the films I’ve done about Muslim characters have gotten a lot more attention in

town.

So when you consume films yourself and not create them, do you feel like you see yourself

represented in terms of your different racial backgrounds?

I think Hollywood has done a wonderful job of capturing Latino stories. I think partially it’s because

there’s such a large audience that wants to consume latino stories. And not just latinos, I think white

people love looking into the latino experience from many angles. And the thing is, I think the important

thing to remember is that the latino heritage is actually extremely diverse. You know, on the little

stereotypical side you’ve got the drug lords and drug dealers and those are represented in shows like

125 Narcos, and it’s extremely captivating! But then you have also the wonderful values of the latino

heritage, positive and passionate family values, passion at love. My wife’s favorite show is Modern

Family and the best character in that, - it’s not Eva Mendez… It’s Sofia Vergara! And the dynamic

between her and her little boy it just beautifully captures some of the best parts of the Latino heritage.

You’ve got this wide array of Latino stories in Hollywood and I think Hollywood has done a very good

job at finding Latino writers, Latino directors and Latino subjects, and I also give credit to the Latino

community. You look at Univision, Galivision... There’s so many places to find Latino stories and they

run the gamut! They run the gamut, like I said, from drug lords to single moms who dote upon their

child. So I would say we’ve done a very good job of capturing the Latino perspective. If anything, me as

an artist, that might be why I haven’t focused on it too much because I think there’s so many good

Latino stories out there. I don’t really know if I need to contribute to it because there’s already so many

good ones happening. In terms of stories about Muslims, Muslim characters, there’s a deficiency of that

but I don’t think there’s a nefarious angle to it. Number one, there’s not a lot of Muslims in Hollywood. I

don’t think this is because of bigotry. I just think when you look at a lot of Muslim families, whether

they’re from Asia or Arabia, a lot of them are - and I don’t have any quantitative data to back this up,

but a lot of those families are really focused on their kids becoming doctors or engineers. The idea that

you’re gonna become a writer or you’re gonna become a director is just now permeating into that

community and I think just recently Muslims are saying: “Maybe we need to cultivate more artists, we

need to talk about the Muslim experience artistically”. I don’t think Hollywood has shut out Muslims. As

someone with a Muslim background, I’ve never felt shut out of Hollywood and I’ve never felt like doors

closed just because I’m Muslim. One conundrum I will say though, I do think we’re going to see more

Muslim media in Hollywood but I think what happens with a lot of Muslim artists is that they come

across too eager to tell the Muslim story when in reality I think that - and I say we as Muslims - but I

think the artists Muslim community just need to demonstrate that they’re good storytellers and not

focus on trying to get attention just because they’re Muslim. I think that’s the number one thing that’s

held a lot of Muslim artists back, that they’re so eager to focus singlehandedly on Islamic subjects when

in reality they just need to focus on telling a good story. I think sometimes the desire to tell a Muslim or

Arab-centric stories overwhelms the desire to just tell a good story. I do have a lot of other good

Muslim friends in Hollywood - or a handful I would say. The ones who are committed to just making

good artwork and telling good stories are the ones that are advancing. And eventually they’re going to

126 get to a point where they’re in such a good position that maybe they can develop a show just about a

Muslim family for example. I have other friends in Hollywood who are Arab and Muslim, and who have

instead of focusing on how to tell a good story are purposely trying to just tell stories of Muslims and

Arabs, and I find that their growth gets stunted and they don’t get as many opportunities. And I don’t

think that’s because of bigotry. I think when you look at agencies in Hollywood, when you look at

producers, when you look at production companies, they want to work with quality artists. So when

we as Muslims market ourselves, we have one of two ways of marketing ourselves. One, we can say “I’m

a Muslim, you should give me an opportunity to tell my story because it’s a different perspective” or we

can say, two, “I’m a great artist! I’m very talented, I’m good at what I do”. Option number two is going to

work for most people. The example I would give here is Aziz Ansari who is now producing a lot of his

own content. He’s muslim, he’s a devout muslim but if you look at Aziz Ansari’s career, he started out

as a standup comedian and he never told people he was Muslim, he didn’t make that part of his sketch.

He was just god-gifted talented, he was god-gifted hilarious and now you’re starting to see projects

arise with him headlining it that do touch upon themes of what it’s like to me Muslim in America. And I

will say it could be frustrating for Muslims because I think a lot of Hollywood wanted to hear about the

Latino experience, so in some ways the Latino filmmakers were recruited to specifically tell about the

Latino experiences. That’s not how Muslims are going to get integrated. So it’s more important that

Muslims focus on being good artists, less focused just on the idea that we can tell a Muslim story. And I

think Aziz Ansari is probably a terrific example. Any Muslim that wants to get into Hollywood should

study his story. And the other one I would say is there’s a TV show called Quantico. Quantico actually

has a couple of Muslim creators and writers. Same thing, they didn’t come into Hollywood saying “I’m

going to purposefully tell the Muslim story”, they are just really god-gifted talented and they focused on

their talent. I hope that’s making sense.

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Cool.

You talked about being Muslim yourself, that it’s never shut doors for you as a creative.

I don’t feel so, yeah.

Do you think it’s the same if you are a Muslim actor? Do you have as many opportunities? You

talked about the stereotyping as terrorists or kind of negative stereotypes.

That’s an interesting question. First of all, no, I don’t think any doors will close just because you’re

127 Muslim. I have high confidence in that. The criticism that I would have about Hollywood is that an

exorberant amount of roles today - and I’m talking about roles in television, roles in movies - still go to

white people. And I have nothing against white people - i love white people, my wife is white [Laughs],

my son obviously is part-white. I have nothing against white people. If you wanted to be scared about

something that’s happening in Hollywood, we’re making less movies. The studio system makes less

movies. Now independence, though, there’s still a nice amount of production happening, but you could

argue that there’s less movies being made today. Less movies obviously equals less roles, so there’s

even less roles than there were before, and the mass majority are white centric roles and often male

centric too, unfortunately. Now, there’s a rise in television, there’s more television being made. There’s

more streaming television, Netflix and Hulu and Amazon as examples, that are being made. But still an

inordinate amount of these roles are basically made for white characters and particularly white males.

So, no, I don’t feel like any doors get shut for Muslim actors and actresses just because they’re Muslim.

I do feel, though, that they have a tougher hill to climb. If you are not white and not male, you’re going

to have a tougher time finding a foothold as an actor or actress in this industry. And I don’t really know

what to say to that, I think one interesting thing I can really contribute to that is look at all the major

blockbuster movies coming out. Every one of them has an Asian character. And I think the funniest

example of this is Star Wars: Rogue One, has this Asian character who is blind. He’s a very compelling

character, I absolutely loved his character. And it seems - I don’t want to sound weird, but it seems so

foreign to have an Asian character because quite frankly we’re so used to all the characters being

white. Now, why did Star Wars have an Asian character? Why are all these other blockbusters that are

coming out, why do they have Asian characters? Hollywood is making a tremendous amount of money

in China. And China has imposed a rule; that they’re not going to allow a movie to be distributed in

China unless there’s an Asian character. It’s really quite fascinating, because the Chinese have basically

said: “We want positive portrayals of Asian people. We want to be proud of what we’re seeing on the

screen and we’re just not going to let you distribute it unless there’s an Asian character”. So now even

Suicide Squad is another example, you have that comic book character, I forgot her name but she’s of

Japanese descent, she was purposefully put in there so Suicide Squad could be seen in China. I don’t

think this is a bad thing, I actually really like it. I like that we’re seeing more Asians on television. It

calls to question, though, do we as minority groups need to tell Hollywood: “Look, we’re just not going

to consume your films unless there’s multi-ethnic, multi-genders on screen. We won’t consume it if we

128 don’t see a strong female character, not a weak female character, but a strong one. We won’t consume it

if we don’t see a brown person, a Muslim, a Native American”. You know, it comes to that question,

because I would like to say that the inclusion of Asians into all these blockbuster films was a result of

Hollywood saying: “Let’s capture a better diversity”. It wasn’t. It was because China armwrestled them.

Appropriately, I think it’s good that they did that. So it calls into question, how do we get more women

and minorities into film? And that’s what concerns me about Hollywood. And ultimately the studio

heads will decide, usually, who the main stars are of these films as well as the heads of all these

streaming companies, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etcetera… All of these executives are white men. [Pauses

and laughs] We had a brief period where Sony Pictures was run by a woman, I forget her name, but of

course she had her downfall due to the WikiLeaks scandal. I don’t even know if you could argue that

she did a good job of putting women in films, though. So what I can say though is, it’s hard to sit here

and say that Muslims should get more screen time because honestly women need more screen time! I

mean, you look at all the comic book films that have come out, we are just now about to see Wonder

Woman come out. I mean, what took you guys so long? [Laughs] You know, that’s my opinion. What

took you so long to make a comic book film of a strong woman? And it’s funny, because the Marvel

universe has a leg up on the DC universe. The Marvel Avenger-universe still has not released a female-

centric movie within their entire comic book hemisphere, there still isn’t one. For example, The

Guardians of the Galaxy - I think it would be incredible to see Gomorra’s character, a prequel of

Gomorra. I think it would be incredible. I think a lot of girls would buy tickets for it. And I think what’s

preventing it from happening is you’ve got a white male studio head and it just hasn’t occured to him.

So I’m giving you a really long answer here, I apologize for being really long-winded.

No, but it’s fine.

But I don’t think Muslims are being rejected for roles because of being Muslim. I think it’s because

there’s just not very many roles for minorities and women out there. And it’s hard for me to complain

as a Muslim because honestly I think we need to level the playing field with women first. Then I think

we can start to say: “Okay, now let’s get more minorities included”. And that’s the thing, I think a lot of

the studio heads are white men. I don’t think they’re misogynists, I just think these things don’t occur

to them. When it is put to their attention I actually think they respond very well. It’s not really we need

more women and minorities in movies, I think we need more studio heads that are minorities and

women. And I think that’s when we will to start to have a real change in media and people will say

129 “Well, okay, let’s tell more stories from these perspectives” and I think that’s the change that needs to

happen, basically.

You talked about this, with the token Asian character. I actually thought - I saw all these pictures

and trailers for the “Ghost in the Shell” film with Scarlett Johansson. What is your opinion on

casting Scarlett Johansson in this film?

Well, I think she’s great. I think she’s great, I think she’s one of the few… I think there’s some luck

involved here, that she’s gotten a lot of opportunities. However, she’s beautiful, I think her acting has

improved considerably. If I were to be a snob, I would say I don’t know if her early acting jobs were

very convincing, but her more recent work I think is very captivating. She’s obviously stunning, but I

think she’s a very good actress. And from what I’ve heard around town… So many people don’t realize

how important it is that you treat people well, you know, that you treat your team well, you treat

people well on set. From what I’ve heard, I’ve heard that she treats people very well. So it seems like as

a person she’s still the same, it hasn’t gone to her head. And I think that’s a reasons she still gets a lot of

these roles. And no, and I’m very proud of her, I hope she continues to get these roles because she’s one

of few women that can headline a movie and carry an entire movie and carry a budget. And the more

women who do this, the better it is for women, the better it is for minorities. I will say this, she’s got a

great character - again, I’m complaining about the Marvel universe! I complain about it because I think

the Marvel universe is the biggest franchise we have right now. She’s played an extremely compelling

comic book character, the Black Widow. Why the hell do we not have a stand-alone Black Widow

movie? That’s my question I would have there. She’s got this captivating story of being this Russian spy,

I believe orphaned, I believe sold into the sex trade. I mean, these are extremely relevant subjects to

touch upon. What the hell is Marvel waiting for? You know? So yeah, I’d say, any movie she’s cast in, I’m

a big fan and if anything, what I’m saying is that she’s worked so hard and I think we should see more

of her, really, because I think she represents an opportunity to see more women and more minorities

on film and and the better she does the better these two communities will do.

She was criticized because some people thought it should be an Asian actress. And I know that

one of her responses was that she maybe didn’t think race into it as much, but she thought

“Wow, here is a really cool, strong female role” and maybe she had been looking for that.

Well, I’m not as familiar with the story, then, so I don’t know if I can really comment on it. Because,

forgive me, I didn’t realize that the story had so much Asian origin. [Pauses] They probably should have

130 cast an Asian. I mean, you see the returns for ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ and some of the Asian

characters involved in the ‘Fast and Furious’ franchise, it becomes pretty obvious that Asians do great

in terms of carrying a film in Hollywood. I didn’t realize the Asian roots that that story had, and I think

there’s plenty of Asian actresses that could probably have taken it on. But also, I’m a big fan of Scarlett

Johansson and I think that the more she succeeds, the better it is for all groups involved. Hopefully

that’s a good answer, considering my limited knowledge of the film, but that’s what I’d say there.

I want to ask about another casting choice. I think maybe you heard about the Nina Simone

biopic where Zoe Saldana was cast to play Nina Simone?

Correct.

And she was criticized as well, and the film was criticized because she is of Puerto Rican and

Dominican descent and were put in dark makeup an a prosthetic nose to make her look more

like Nina. What is your opinion on casting and creative choices like this, as a person working

behind the camera?

I think I’m okay with it, but do you mind if I check something really quick? Do you mind if I look up…

Do you know which production company made the film?

Ealing Studios Entertainment.

I’m going to look it up really quick. Do you mind giving me a minute?

No, it’s fine.

What’s the name of the movie called?

It’s just called ‘Nina’ and it’s from 2016.

Oh, I see it here, okay. So I’ve missed this! So the fact that I haven’t seen this movie... because this came

out, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So… [Pause] So this is kind of my answer to that. It was produced by Ealing Studios, and I’m sure they

produced this film with the intention of making it an Oscar contender. I would cut them a little slack

just because it’s independent and when you’re working with an indie budget… Usually when you’re an

independent and you have such a small budget, you probably also don’t have very much time. I think

that the limited amount of time and the limited budget is something to take into consideration that this

company was trying to just do the best that they could. And I’d probably have a harsher opinion if it

was a big studio, so I’m cutting a lot of slack to the fact that it’s an indie production company, because I

131 run an indie production company and usually when you get the money to make a movie - it’s a really

weird circumstance because I really can’t explain it, I don’t know why - but when you’re lucky enough

to get the money to make a movie, it’s one of those deals where not only do you have the money but

you gotta spend it within a certain amount of time. And it could be because of the tax here, because in

America December 31st of that year, that’s the last day of the year, any money you have in your account

on January 1st is now taxable. So a lot of indie companies, you get the money in August and you’ll

wanna pay taxes on it in January, so no you have from August to the end of December to make a movie.

There’s other reasons. You could have an investor who is giving you money needs to show it spends as

well. That’s the main thing, with any indie company there’s usually some reason why the money has to

be spent quickly and that can often times motivate a lot of casting decisions. And there’s a tradition in

Hollywood - you can’t offer multiple people the part at the same time, that’s very hampering for indie

companies. You give the script to someone, you give them one week to read it, if you have multiple

turndowns it can start to get very hairy. So I’m cutting them slack from the perspective that they were

an indie company. Now, if given a better budget and more time, did they make the right decision? I

would say they put themselves in a tough corner. I don’t really know if I could say that Zoe Saldana

looks like Nina Simone, it’s a little hard to place her in that realm. If we wanted to get really didactic,

you could argue that the Puerto Rican culture and her heritage does have roots relating to Africa, so if

you wanted to get extremely didactic about it I think it’s fair to say that the choice was okay. However,

using the prosthetic nose, I think that’s very insulting. I’m surprised that she would do that, I’m

surprised that they would make that decision. I think that’s very insulting, I don’t think they should

have even gone there. As far as just the idea of casting someone of a different ethnicity into a role that

doesn’t share that ethnicity - I mean, it’s interesting because we have Gandi, and Ben Kingsley was cast

as Gandhi. But Ben Kingsley is like one tenth Indian [Laughs] He’s got this small shred of Indian

heritage, so nobody objected to that. And he did a great job, I don’t want to take away from that. But

normally, as a minority, I’m not against - if you have a minority character - i’m not against casting

someone outside of that ethnicity as that character. However, what I will say, there is something to be

said about covering your bases. So if you’re going to take a character that’s African American and cast

someone who is predominantly Latino, I think it’s fine, I just think you probably should show that you

have a director or one of the lead producers sharing that heritage. So in this case, if it’s an African

American film hopefully you can demonstrate that one of the lead producers or the director or the

132 writer, at least one of them is of that descent. Because I do think for credibility purposes it’s important

to say that someone who is sharing the storytelling responsibilities is of that ethnicity and can

understand the experience that this character went through. If anything I think that’s actually more

important than the actress herself because the actress is going to come in and do her job, but

depending on the set the actress could have a very limited input into what the story says, into what the

lines are, what the character does. So I actually think it’s more important that one of the storytellers -

the producer, the writer, the director, someone from that team be of that ethnicity. Ultimately, no, I’m

happy that a story about a minority woman was told, but the prosthetic nose, that bothers me. I think

that was silly to do that, I don’t think there was any need for it, I think you could just have put Zoe

Saldana out there and said “This is NIna Simone”. I think it was silly to do a prosthetic nose, I mean,

think of Dr. Zhivago… They spoke in English! [Laughs] You know? I mean, it was a movie that took place

in the middle of Russia and they spoke in English. Movie audiences are very forgiving, you don’t have to

be 110% accurate. I think the prosthetic nose was rather insulting.

When you speak about these things you have of course the insight into the business and how it

works and also the explanation of why someone might do a certain casting choice, but what do

you think - for someone who isn’t working in this industry - what does it communicate about

non-white people or non-white actors?

You could say that it communicates disrespect… but I don’t think it does. And the reason I say that is

because we got these groups of minority activists and technically leaders who get offended by a lot of

things and at times I participate in being offended, but the thing is, you go to the ground level and talk

to minorities living in America or really any part of the world… There’s two answers I want to give to

that. Number one, minority communities often have their own forms of media too. The Pakistani

community, for example, there’s like three or four different channels you can subscribe to on direct TV

today that are just Pakistani media and media for media . So if you’re a minority and you don’t feel

represented, you can probably find a channel that does represent you. The second thing I would say is,

what we see on screen is not just cinema. We see television news, we see sports, we see reality TV.

Reality TV, television and sports have done a better job of integrating minorities than cinema. I feel bad

saying that, because I’m from cinema. But if you watch a news broadcast today, there’s usually an even

split, half women, half men, there’s a nice selection of minorities. I’m just now starting to see more

Muslims getting involved in newscasts, usually in larger states such as Florida or Ohio, but you’d be

133 hard pressed not to find in most major cities a black woman doing the news anchoring or a Latina.

Similarly with sports, sports is not a bigoted event, you know. If you’re athletic, we want you to play!

And we’ve got a wonderful diversity of athletes in sports. There’s a rise of Muslim athletes as well,

which is exciting. And then of course reality TV - reality tv has done a tremendous job of integrating

minorities, and it’s funny because the reputation of reality TV in Hollywood is that these are bottom-

dwelling cockroaches who are appealing to the lowest form of humanity, but if you look at the cast of

reality TV shows, they do a better job than Hollywood, they do a better job than cinema. You’ve got

black people, brown people, white people, men and women. I would say recently you’ll probably see

more Muslims as well. I don’t know that I’ve seen a Native American on a cinema screen, it’s been a

while. I have seen them on reality tv. So when you put that all together, it’s not just cinema we’re

consuming, but it’s television news, reality tv, sports. I think ultimately you will find all ethnicities and

genders represented pretty well with mostly positive portrayals across the board. The fact that we

have television news, reality tv and sports, the fact that we have that on tv… I think that’s why you see

less outrage from the minority communities about cinema. Because, as far as we’re concerned there’s

plenty of positive portrayals that might not be cinema, but the fact that there’s even any positive

portrayals… You know, we’re pretty happy and I would say we don’t feel the need to be constantly

offended by cinema, because we do see portrayals - the rest of the world sees plenty of positive

portrayals so it doesn’t really occur to us, I’d say. Do you mind if I use the bathroom again?

No, I’ll just stop it for a second.

[Recording is paused, then started again]

Yes, it’s recording again.

But no, I think I pretty much wrapped up my point on the minority portrayals in so many different

forms of visual media. Yeah, whatever the next question is.

I wanted to ask you about what you talked about - that television versus cinema is maybe doing

a better job at diversity. Why do you think that is?

I think part of it is you don’t have to be so careful in television. You know, you produce a TV show… this

is the thing with television. You have a certain core audience built in that’s viewing your channel.

There’s a certain group that watches NBC, there’s a certain group of people who watch Netflix. No

matter what you release, you know you don’t not have to spend money on advertising. Advertising is

already built in, so whatever show you release, whatever streaming show, television show, whatever

134 you release, you know that people are going to know about it. Now, to produce a pilot episode and

maybe 8 other episodes, depending on the channel, it could be anywhere from half a million to 3

million. But you’ve got this budget every year, you know, “Okay, this is the amount of money we can

spend of pilots and 8 episodes”, so you’re not racked with this fear. “Okay, we’re going to put together a

show about Muslims or a show about Latinos. We’re going to send out this trial balloon and put it out

there, our marketing is already built in, if it grabs a constituency and it flies, then great!” I think the

fear with cinema is it’s the idea of you really only get one shot and it’s a multi-level process: you

develop the film, you cast the film, you make the film. Now it’s interesting, because you have kind of got

three areas where you need to meet the threshold of success. The first one is, you made the film and

you watch it in house. You’re sitting there debating: “Okay, is this film good? We spent all this money

developing it, we produced it, we finished it, we’ve edited it. Did it come out good?” And there’s a lot of

scenarios where the movie did not come out good. And now you’re just trying to make the best you can

of a movie that you know is lousy. I would say that 50% of the time the movie comes out good, but

that’s not a good success rate. Literally, 50% of the time the movie is crap and you’re trying to make the

best of it. But then the other 50% of the time, Okay, the movie is good. Now what do we do? Okay, we

market it. We’re going to book a bunch of theatres and we’re going to market the movie. There’s a

chance that the marketing doesn’t resonate. Now you’ve hit another failure. [Laughs] Now we could

say, again, it’s 50-50. 50% of the films produced in the Hollywood systems are good, then you’ve got

another 50% where the marketing campaign is also good. Okay, the film’s good, the marketing’s good,

it hits theatres.

How long is it going to play in the theatre? You do have some films that the studio says is good, the

marketing resonates, it hits theatres, everyone hates it. It’s in theatres for two weeks, you’ve lost

money. On the other hand you’ve got this special subset of films and I’d say, who knows, I guess maybe

one fourth, 25% of movies made in the Hollywood system, it works out for them. Okay, the movie’s

done, we think it’s good, the marketing resonates, it hits theatres. Thank God, critics like it, audiences

like it. It’s going to play for three months, we’re going to make our money back and break even. Now

we release it on VOD, now we’re making billions. So the point I’m getting at is whether you’re an indie

company or a major studio you have to be so damn careful. You have to be so damn careful about what

movie you make, you have to have so much certainty behind it that this movie is going to do well. Even

if you make the movie for a lower budget you still have to spend money on marketing, and marketing is

135 not something you can do for cheap. It’s funny, because you can actually do a movie for very cheap. You

can get away with a lot of shortcuts on movies. You can go to Canada and get incentives, Puerto Rico

offers great incentives. You can go and literally have someone pay 30% of the budget just off incentives,

you can find investors who are excited to invest and become movie producers. No one is going to give

you free money for marketing and it’s really tough to cut corners with marketing. It’s very tough. If

you’re going to put a movie in anywhere from one thousand to three thousand theatres, you’re looking

at an enormous marketing budget. So that’s the problem, and I don’t think it used to be that way with

cinema. With cinema before, you’d make a movie, a indie movie, for example. You’d make it with an

extremely small budget, you’d make it extremely quick, hopefully it does well. You put it in some

arthouse theatres and it might resonate. Similarly with the Hollywood studio system before, it was

kind of like television where they just had a set budget, “Okay, we’re going to make 30 movies this

year”. It’s changed, people are very guarded with their money, and again, I think marketing is the big

stop gap here. You can’t shortcut marketing, you always have to spend a certain amount on marketing.

So there’s a lot of uncertainty, there’s a lot of fear. If we make a feature film about Muslims, is the

marketing going to resonate? If we make a feature film about black people, is the marketing going to

resonate? So few films have been made about minorities, so I think it’s one of those things where

nobody wants to jump in the water first. We have made a lot of movies about Latinos, they have proven

to be extremely viable, so there’s less fear about doing movies about Latinos. To a certain extent we’re

reaching that with Asians. To a certain extent. Just because movies like The Fast and the Furious have a

good amount of Asian characters I think we’ve become comfortable with the idea that Asians are

marketable. As silly as that sounds. There’s still a lot of fear about doing female-centric movies. There’s

certainly fear about doing movies about Muslims, about Native Americans, and I’d also say about black

people. And I think that’s where it comes from, I think there’s this paralysis that “We might invest in

this project and we might not see a dollar, in fact we might lose money”, whereas with television and

streaming the marketing is already built in. There are less stop gaps for failure versus succes, it’s a lot

easier to take risks. And it used to be different, it used to be indie cinema it was easier to take risks, but

just the place where indie cinema is at now is fluctuating so much that that risk has now moved into

television, streaming television. And the biggest heartbreaking thing about that… at least we have an

entity that’s putting minorities on screen, the heartbreaking part though is that it is really hard to

break into tv. It’s harder to break into television that it is into cinema, and the reason why is because

136 television is controlled by a group of elites. If you get on their radar, good for you. Cinema, you can

book screens tomorrow, you can put your movie there, it can do well and now you’re noticed.

Television, it’s harder to create that opportunity for yourself. That said, overall there’s a lot of

uncertainty related to cinema due to marketing. You don’t have that in television, television can take

more risks, that’s why I think you see more minorities in television.

You talked about that it’s still predominantly white men that are controlling the business and

also getting the roles. For people who maybe do feel like they’re being shut out or want to see

themselves represented more, what - if any - action would you say should be taken against this?

Well, that’s a good question. I think if you want to see more minorities or more women represented

you have to consume media related to that. So if there’s a TV show that’s headlined by a women you

gotta get on your DVR and set it to record it every time. You gotta go to Facebook, you gotta like like the

page of that TV show or movie. When they release an announcement you have to share it. Things like

that capture Hollywood’s attention. If we made a movie or a TV show about a Muslim family and it had

positive portrayals and you want to see more of that again, you gotta go to their Facebook page, you

gotta like it, you gotta share their posts, you’ve gotta record it every time it comes on. Everything we do

today is recorded, every decision we make over our smartphone, our DVR, somewhere, someplace it is

recorded, it is noted. The way we consume things today, our overall consumption has never been better

archived than it is today. And that’s what a lot of decisions are based on. So if there is a movie with

minorities and it’s positive portrayals, go buy that ticket, join their Facebook page, join their Twitter,

retweet their tweets. That’s the best way to support these projects. You can go to Hollywood and

protest, you can go and protest: “You don’t give us enough screen time”, etcetera. I honestly think

though, that consuming the portrayals you like is what will help more, because then these executives

will get behind their desk and say “Okay, look at this show we made about Muslims or look at this show

we made about Latinas! It got a lot of fans, let’s make more”! The second thing I would say is you can

do what China did, you can establish a country that’s full of whatever minority populus that is, that has

a lot of buying power, and you will only distribute the films if they have a positive portrayal of the

ethnicity you represent… that’s a little harder to do [Laughs]. But there’s 56 Muslim countries, they’re

all organized under The Organized Islamic Conference, the OIC, It’s like the united nations for Muslims.

I don’t know, they could get together and say “We don’t want to distribute any more films unless they

have Muslims in them”. I don’t think Hollywood would want to lose out on distributing to 56 countries.

137 The fun things about Muslims though, is Muslims are the most difficult group to make agree on

anything… [Laughs] and I can say that because I have Muslim heritage, so I don’t sound like a bigot, I

can say that. I don’t think you’ll ever be able to make Muslims agree, I just put that scenario up because

it’s kind of humorous, but that’s the easiest way to copy China, what China has done. And it will

happen, Hollywood will produce shows with Muslims. Aziz Ansari has his own show right now. You

want to see more positive Muslim portrayals, you better be liking Aziz Ansaris show’s Facebook page,

you better be following his Twitter page and you better share everything that they disseminate. That’s

the best way to show Hollywood what you want.

Alright. I think we’ve covered everything. It was a good ending point! That you so much.

Great! Great. Yeah, my pleasure.

BLAKE

Age: 26

Gender: Male

Occupation: Actor

Identifies as: Australian-Chinese and Taiwanese

When consuming films and other visual media, do you feel like you see your own race

represented?

I only think about race when i do see a familiar ethnicity on screen. This has been happening a little

more and I think it is due to both the overall media attention the topic of diversity has gained in the

industry, and two, I'm more aware of race representation because of that. I guess what I mean is maybe

I've noticed the increase in racial representation more because of the constant reminder we see in the

news, internet, social media, etcetera. Had there not been so much chatter, the change in racial

representation no matter how small would be less noticed.

As an actor, do you find that your race has an influence on your work life and how co-workers

and other people in the film industry perceive you?

Definitely not directly, but more indirectly. Indirectly being I seem to have a lot more auditions when

shows are about Asian stereotype genres, like gangs, underground or villains. Me personally, I'm

138 definitely more cautious with the size of the project and my future in whether I would like to play such

roles and whether they will box me in, in terms of my acting range. There’s definitely more for me to

think about when considering such roles.

What roles are available for you to play?

Ultimately, growing up in Australia, I consider myself Australian, or more Western in terms of my

values, beliefs etcetera, and in consideration I can play any role a white man or woman can play. That’s

what should be available to me. When you live in a country like America, multicultralism is well known

and a part of life. ergo, you deal with ABC's everyday then why would you not be able to relate to one

on a storytelling medium? This is off the fact Hollywood talks about the fear that if they cast people of

color, audiences may not be able to relate to them, which in my opinion is untrue.

Are there roles you feel like you’re not expected to play?

I'm definitely not expected to play the white male lead who saves the day in an all white cast and I

don't expect to play the romantic lead opposite a white woman.

If you have auditioned for these types of roles without being chosen or called back, what are

some of the reasons you have been given for someone not choosing you?

This part is sensitive so please inform me if you wish to add this in the report. I believe any role that

upstages white dominance in the world, will never make it onto the big screen. Even in films with big

diverse casts. the general theme is white male saves or falls in love with Asian female lead and some

mean the same thing or white cast saves another race from their own conflict. All in all, audiences are

lead to believe that ultimately the western culture is always right and will prevail. So much so that in

Wolverine, where a Japanese woman outcasts herself and her Japanese values for Western ones! Which

I'm not saying will never happen, but it is extremely rare if anyone knows even general Japanese

culture. No, I don't believe those roles exist, and if so, I'm 6'1 and athletic with prominent facial

features. There are definitely a lot of Asians out there that look like I do, however the stereotype

remains that Asians are skinny, shy and at most average build, therefore to consider casting me would

always question whether I fit into the dynamics of the rest of the cast. I'm sure you know, there has

been one to date, and that was a tv show starring John Cho, and it was dropped after a few episodes.

Again, does it challenge the audience, or feed into the existing stereotypes? In other words - what

would audiences relate to, and what sells tickets?

So a white lead sells more tickets?

139 Yes. In Western culture, yes. Only because Hollywood feeds what they think people want to see.

However, I'm sure if they released a series of diversity cast, people will consume them just like black

culture and all black casts have been battling for representation for decades

Can you elaborate on why you think it is this way? You mentioned earlier that the racial makeup

of American society is very diverse, so how come only white leads are expected to appeal to

people the most and sell the most tickets?

We now all go watch movies with all black casts although still about gangs, history or whatever. It is

obvious that people can relate. That is the culture in Hollywood. It is a cultural thing like with any large

corporation in the world that push their products out to the market and convince the market what they

think the consumer needs. They think the market needs white leads to sell tickets, and that may be so

now, but I think the distinction is not that big. Like I said before about black culture and all black cast

films, they finally got their voice heard and now it is accepted, audiences realise that they are the exact

same, have the same needs, wants and feelings in life.

I think it is not so much a matter of how but a matter of when. “Fresh off the boat” about an asian

family in Florida is doing very well, it is very relatable and it plays truths. For too long, Asians in

culture has been portrayed as submissive and quiet and that is why it is so easy for Asian stereotypes

to prevail. But now it is clearly changing because audiences start to realise that these stereotypes are

not at all true. For example, I have been going in for auditions for three large productions for several

different roles, two of them were about Asian organised crime in Australia and another was a remake

of an American show about criminal activity to a Mandarin version.

You mentioned earlier that you have more auditions when a show or film features stereotypes

regarding your ethnicity. Can you tell me more about this? What are these stereotypes?

And do you find that certain of these stereotypes not only apply to race, but gender as well?

Definitely. Asian girls tend to get more roles as romantic leads, but never the same around. They are

easily represented as 'exotic', 'sexy', 'foreign', just as how white female leads are as well. Sex sells, but

when it comes to the topic of female dominance and equality, again, the white male will feel

intimidated. I do have female actor friends who always say they notice that if it is a supporting part for

a group of friends, and they need diversity, Asian girls are the way to go because they tick two boxes -

they can be sexy, and diversity, whereas Asian males in a non-martial arts stereotyped film only can

tick one box, diversity.

140 Why is this different, do you think? Why isn't an Asian man believed to be sexy to audiences if

an Asian woman is?

History and wars. It is just ongoing stereotypes that no one has challenged on a large scale, like with

blacks and gangs. No matter how many movies made, how many accomplishments, these stereotypes

prevail based off of ignorance, fear of the unknown and just status. To this day I can go to a house party,

and white university educated men have commented that I am a “cool Asian” or that I am “not like

other Asians”. In my opinion they just have not looked around.

As an actor, how do you then act if you are offered or presented with stereotypical roles?

If it is a sizeable, professional project I will take on the role, both to build my career and obviously to

stay employed. However if it is a student project that is asking me to do an Asian accent or fight Kung

Fu, I will turn it down.

That was what I was curious about, because this is your job and source of income. Can you

"afford" to turn down a role if it's offensive or uncomfortable to play?

I cannot speak for other actors of color, but I would really watch closely the cost-benefit of playing any

role that will later be detrimental for my culture, or to the detriment of future Asian actors. If the role

is offensive and uncomfortable, I will look at the project itself. If I'm playing an Asian gangster with an

Asian accent which is funny and demeaning but the underlying theme of the movie is about a deeper

meaning and message, I would play that. However, if I'm throwing my culture under the bus for a few

laughs and gags just to make a little bit of money, I will happily turn it down

The casting of white or lighter skinned actors for non-white roles appears to be a tendency in

Hollywood, for example Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell" or Emma Stone in "Aloha",

both white women portraying characters of Asian or part-Asian ethnicities. What are your

thoughts on this as an actor of Asian descent?

See, with this, I do understand. It is a business. If you think you will make 10 million with an Asian

actor but 100 mil with a white, it is the obvious business choice. And I also think we are Asians living in

Western culture, therefore it is up to them how much representation they want to give us. With that

being said, with the representation that you do give us, please don't make us the loser, geek, villain or

martial arts enthusiast. We are Americans like you, who is born and bred in this country. If you are not

going to represent us, then don't, it’s fine. Just when you do, don't make us out to look like rubbish, is

all I am saying. It is very important because Hollywood movies span the world, each movie they make

141 about terrorism or black gangs in a bad way only solidifies a small issue into a major way of thinking.

Hollywood movies are the modern day propaganda for the West. It’s fun, it’s cheeky, but it really sets in

stone some very wrong assumptions about every other culture, other than their own.

What are your thoughts on Zoe Saldana being cast as Nina Simone?

Again, it’s easy for us on the outside to point fingers at this particular issue. maybe they did audition

thousands and thousands of applicants and truly believed Zoe was suited for the part. I think given the

ugly history of black culture in America they would not apply darker makeup unless they had a really

really good reason for it. Still, I think it is idiotic because it opens up backlash against the whole

project. Same with Scarlett and Tilda, they were digitally enhanced to look more Asian to appeal to the

Asian audiences more, but obviously it was not their main audience target, just like the Nina biopic.

Perhaps the studio thought that educated white audiences made up a bigger percentage than educated

black audience

In your opinion, what do casting choices like the ones mentioned above communicate to non-

white actors and audiences?

It communicates that they still think that they are in some ways more superior or a colored man or

woman cannot possible do a job as well as a white person can. However, it is easy for us to put issues

as complex as this into one thing. There are many implications, and I think the problem of people on

the outside is that they generalise a massive issue into one particular issue and that is race. I think

moving forward we need to keep an open mind because the moment you point at one issue, of

blackface for example, then people are only focused on blackface, and absolutely nothing else. So I go

back to what I said before, it is an idiotic thing to do but obviously I hope the studio and all the casing

professionals are ready for the controversy and maybe they do believe Zoe's performance will be

enough, just like maybe Scarletts will be enough, too, or Tildas.

So what do you think the future will hold as far as representations of people of color in

Hollywood cinema?

I think whatever change should be an organic one. Black cinema rose in my opinion from black

professionals in the industry. Filmmakers, writers who specifically had their own race's back. Similarly,

Asian actors have begun voicing out, something that hasn't been done ever, really, so as long as movies

steer clear of stereotypes and people taking risks with their work, the growth will be a healthy one. I

would hate to see the day where there is a quota on the amount of people of color that is required for a

142 film for the sake of diversity, and not simply because that is how life is. I feel like one cannot really exist

without the other to some degree. The power of casting is not with just one person, but with many

industry professionals. therefore the power of diversity is in the hands of these people who are

predominantly white and who - at no fault of their own - naturally see and tell stories of other white

characters.

DOMINIQUE

Age: 28

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress

Identifies own ethnicity as: Mixed, African American and Caribbean

When consuming films and other visual media, do you feel like you see your own race

represented?

Growing up I watched the CW and BET. My family only ever watched black sitcoms and movies, but

when I watched cartoons all the characters seemed to be white.

Are there certain races you feel lack representation in film?

I grew up in South Florida and most of my childhood friends were Latin. I didn’t see many positive

images of Latin people if I saw them at all.

As an actress, do you find that your race has an influence on your work life and how co-workers

and other people in the film industry perceive you?

Sure, I currently work on a show that was looking specifically for a mixed race woman my age. I don’t

get to see the production side of things so I can’t speak to how roles are awarded, but I can say that

many of my jobs have been jobs that were specifically calling for ethnic diversity

What roles are available for you to play?

143 I audition for all types of things. Primarily in TV. I mostly work on roles that have strong stubborn

personalities.

Are there roles you feel like you’re not expected to play?

No.

If you have auditioned for a role without being chosen or called back, what are some of the

reasons you have been given for someone not choosing you?

Most of the time it’s that I’m not known enough or not a name yet.

When or in what contexts do you see race being called upon or mentioned in casting calls?

It’s usually mentioned up front in a casting breakdown if it’s mentioned at all.

Can you give me some specific examples of this? Are there different contexts for different races?

African American, Black, Mixed race, etc

Do you personally experience stereotypes towards your race in the process of casting?

I do not

Do you personally experience stereotypes regarding gender? Do you find that certain

stereotypes on gender are linked to certain races?

Not that I personally have experienced.

As an actress, how do you act if you are offered or presented with stereotypical roles?

When I first started, yes, but as I’ve been able to audition for more prominent roles in TV I haven’t gone

for stereotypical stuff

How would you describe the representations of non-white versus white people that you

generally encounter when watching films?

I think more and more I’m starting to see representations of typical black people in typical

144 relationships. “Insecure” on HBO is a great example. Nobody deals drugs, is addicted to drugs, or

dealing with the trials of inner city life. It’s a show about a girl who has relationship problems and

power struggles at work

What are your thoughts on the Oscars and the most recent Oscar ceremony?

I thought it was entertaining. I was relieved that they made more of an effort to be inclusive in their

nominations.

The casting of white or lighter skinned actors for non-white roles appears to be a tendency in

Hollywood (for example Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell" or Emma Stone in "Aloha").

What are your thoughts on this?

I don’t think it’s primarily about race. I think it’s more about star power. Scarlett Johansson brings

funding to production and moviegoers to the theatres more than a no-name Asian actress would. I

think that’s the main problem, giving lead roles to stars rather than taking chances on no-name actors.

Zoe Saldana was cast to play Nina Simone in the biopic "Nina", but was put in dark makeup for

her role to resemble Nina Simone more closely. What are your thoughts on this choice? Why do

you think her skin was made to appear darker in stead of choosing to cast an actress with a

similar skin tone to Nina Simone’s in the first place?

Nobody likes blackface, even if the person wearing it is part-black. I think it goes again to what I

mentioned before about star power.

In your opinion, what do casting choices like the ones mentioned above communicate to non-

white actors and audiences?

That if you are not already famous, good luck being the star of a film.

In your opinion, are there any effects or consequences of different levels of racial

representation in film? If yes, what kind of effects?

If you represent more black people in films, I could potentially work more.

Has racial representations or a lack of representation impacted your own life? If yes, in what

way?

Sure, if they don’t open a search to include no-name actresses or actresses that are non-white, then I

don’t get to compete.

145

Marie

Age: 32

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress by day, bartender by night

Identifies as: Filipino American

Alright… I might check it every so often to see if it’s still recording.

Okay.

Maybe just for the record, you could start by stating you age, your gender and your relationship

to the film business.

I’m 32 years old and I’m an actress. My parents are from the Philippines originally, but I was born here

and I went to high school in the Philippines.

So what would you identify as ethnically?

I’m a Filipino American.

Alright. So when you consume visual media, do you feel like you see your own ethnicity

represented?

No, not at all. Everyone in every race, there are these people that they know are famous, that are the

same as you. You know, they’ll say: “Oh, Rob Schneider is a quarter FIlipino!” but he doesn’t really

identify as Filipino, he plays mostly white characters. There’s like Bruno Mars, Nicole Scherzinger, you

know, everyone in your family is always talking about “Oh, that guy is Filipino!”, but there really isn’t

anyone that is Filipino that really works that much. There’s one girl who’s a character actress, don’t

know her name, that’s a problem. [Pauses, then laughs]

But you recognize her when you see her?

Yeah. Because I see her and I’m like: “Oh, that’s great. She’s clearly Filipino!”, she was in Crazy Stupid

Love, she played Emma Stone’s best friend. And she was in 21, so I just recognize her face. But there

isn’t really anyone I know who is Filipino that you can shout from the rooftops about.

No. Do you feel like there are certain races - not just FIlipino, but other races - that lack

representations in American cinema?

146 Yeah, definitely. I think that as far as Asians go this is a really interesting time, too, because Asians are

becoming more vocal about these things, too. Constance Wu from “Fresh Off The Boat” talking about, I

mean, she basically destroyed “The Great Wall” for Matt Damon.

Yeah.

You know? That was insane. And then there was Scarlett Johansson. And Tilda Swinton in “Doctor

Strange”. I think it’s… oh, and the biggest one! [Raises voice] Emma Stone!

In ‘Aloha’?

Yes, in ‘Aloha’! And I saw that! And I like Emma Stone, I love Cameron Crow, and I didn’t know anything

about the controversy until I saw it in the theatre, and she said it. She has this line, where she is like

“Oh, my dad is Hawaiian and Chinese” or something like that. My jaw literally dropped in the theatre, I

was like “You have got to be fucking kidding me”! There’s no fucking way! There’s so many Asian

actresses out there. You know? There’s so many people out there who would fit that role and they’re

being filled by people that aren’t Asian.

I was going to ask you about that, actually. Both in the case with Emma Stona and ‘Aloha’, but I

also saw all these posters for ‘Ghost in the Shell’. It seems like Hollywood has this tendency to

cast either Caucasian people or lighter-skinned people for roles written for non-white people.

So when you see Scarlett Johansson or for example Emma Stone playing someone who is part

Asian, can you tell me your thoughts about this?

My gut reaction is to be upset about it. I saw a movie in Hollywood last week. I saw ‘Get Out’, which was

awesome! Speaking about minorities in the industry. They had costumes for ‘Ghost in the Shell’, there

was a little area they had exhibits for it. So they had some clips running and they had costumes. And

someone said to me “Look how small Scarlett Johansson is!”, when they showed her costume, and

someone said “She’s the size of an actual Asian person”! You know? Anyone could have played that. I

think it’s sad that people think that an Asian person can’t carry a film. It’s just generally upsetting, and

it’s a shame because I, as a nerd, I will see the movie, I’m going to see the movie. I’m going to see it

anyway! I try not to… But I’m going to pay, I’m going to pay for a ticket to go see it in the theatre,

because I love that stuff. Yeah, it’s difficult.

I know she was questioned about it. I think no one is doubting that she was a great actress, but

it was because she was a white woman, and she was asked to explain why she did accept this

role. And she didn’t think of it as a racial thing, for her it was more about “This is a badass

147 female character that I get to play” and that was her take on it. What do you think about this,

being a female actress yourself?

I think it’s difficult to place blame on actors. You know what I mean? The thing is if it wasn’t her, it

could be someone else who was white. It’s also a struggle to be a woman, and it’s hard because you

want the best woman. and you want people to have the career they deserve and to be able to play

whatever role they want. And I think the blame goes to a lot towards the filmmakers in making the

decision to cast that way and not necessarily Scarlett Johansson. It’s difficult specifically with Ghost in

the Shell, with anime specifically, because they draw things to not necessarily look japanese but to

have a Caucasian look. I think it bothers me less, I think that the Emma Stone situation was a more

difficult conversation. And think that was something where she should have been like “Wait, I’m not

Asian. Maybe we write that out.” You know what I mean? Maybe that’s not something that needs to be

part of the character. I think that’s a more difficult thing, actually being a different race. I don’t know if

Scarlett… She’s technically playing an android. So that I feel has a little more freedom. But I think when

you’re allowed to say “I’m Asian”, that’s a totally different thing.

Yeah. Do you find as an actress, that race has an influence on how people perceive you in your

work life? And if so, how?

I definitely think so. My husband is a white actor, and he is amazing. He’s super talented and has been

at it a long time. He does all the things he’s supposed to do, but in the same token I feel like we put in

the same amount of work, right? We’ve been at it the same amount of time, and it is something that I

see all the time. I’ll see the amount of auditions I get compared to the amount of auditions that he gets,

and there’s a significant difference in that.

Can you elaborate on the difference?

Yeah. I feel like I have great representation. I feel like I can trust my managers. I know that they are

submitting me for things. And his managers are kind of the same. We could go out for the same things.

We get submitted for the same things, and he would have two auditions a week and I’ll get one every

two or three months. The projects available for me are not as plentiful, there just aren’t as many. And

when I do go out, it’s almost never for the lead in things, it’s usually for smaller co-stars or guest stars.

And sometimes even when I go out on those, what will happen is they’ll be looking for any ethnicity, it

will be open ethnicity. And when I show up there’ll be people there from all different races, there’ll be

white women, black women, asian women...and when I go in I’ll think: “They probably won’t go Asian

148 for this”. And that is an unfortunate thing to think, but I think that’s just the reality of it.

Yeah. I was going to ask you about that too. What kinds of roles do you feel are available for you

to play? What do you usually play?

I typically do more work on commercials, and it’s great work. Anytime you act and you get to work as

an actor, it’s great. Any time you’re not bartending [laughs] and you’re acting instead, it feels like a win.

But even the amount of commercials I’ve done, the majority of them have either been foreign market

or part of an ensemble cast. So it won’t even be like it’s just an Asian girl in this thing if it's meant for

national coverage or national release. I don't really see a lot of commcercials that are just an Asian girl.

It's like ”Oh, there's a big group of people, for sure there should be an Asian girl in there”, and then I

tend to book those kinds of things. But it's rare that I go in and you're going to be the only Asian girl in

it.

So do you feel like there are roles that you feel like you're not expected to play? You talked

about not being the lead, for example.

I do. I think, yeah, that, and even just major supporting roles. I can’t even think of anything where it is

just an Asian girl as the love interest. And I’ve watched a lot of movies and a lot of TV. I try to take in as

much as I can and I just love it, but I can’t even off the top of my head think of that.

If you have auditioned for these types of roles that maybe you feel like you’re not expected to

play, without being chosen or called back, what are some of the reasons you’ve been given for

not being chosen for that role?

I think that’s difficult sometimes. As an actor you learn that you’re supposed to forget about auditions.

And we rarely get feedback. You know, even though my managers are calling to ask how I did, we don’t

get a lot of feedback or even honest feedback. You know what I mean? I think even if there was some

reason why they went with another race, I don’t think they’ll necessarily admit to it. Everyone is very

careful to tread lightly. There was a casting director that got in trouble for, it was a breakdown that

they posted where they asked for male black actors and they asked specifically for dark-skinned actors.

They got in trouble for that. So I think people are trying to not leave some sort of paper trail, so if

there’s some discrimination happening I think they’re still trying to keep it under wraps.

So you were talking about having a manager or an agent. Can you tell me more about how that

works. Is everything filtered through this person, or?

Yeah, so what happens is… For most of the better quality projects there’s a website that the agents and

149 managers have access to that only they can see. As an actor you can sign up for things like LA casting

and [Unclear] and all these other websites where you can submit yourself. Those tend to be the more

of non-union work and smaller projects and super specific roles where they need a real - what did I see

the other day? - like a bucket drummer or something like that.

So when you do get the feedback, you kind of get it second hand from an agent?

Yeah, we get it second hand if at all.

Okay. You talked about someone asking specifically for darker skinned actors. When you look at

casting calls or see a brief or something, when do you see race being called upon, like, when do

people want a certain race?

Usually they’re pretty clear about that and I understand that. You know? Like, at lot of times it will say,

it will just have a group of ethnicities, it will either say any ethnicity or Asian or Pacific Islander, East

Indian. It will say a bunch of races.

But is it kind of specific to the role, or is it -

Yes, it’s specific to the role. So usually it will break down the role and it will say what kind of ethnicity

they’re looking for. So on my husband’s it will say “20s, Caucasian”.

Okay, and do you experience some stereotypes towards your own race if they call upon it? Or

races in general?

I do see stereotypes. It’s an interesting problem. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Aziz Ansari’s ‘Master

of None’? It’s amazing! But he tackles these really interesting kind of topics and social commentary in a

really light way but that people don’t necessarily know about. So every time I get a script I’ll have to

read it to realize whether or not they want me to have my accent as an American or if they want me to

do an Asian accent. It’s just an interesting problem to have. He has this one scene where he goes into an

audition and he says it, he says the lines and he does well, and they’re like: “We’d like you to do it more

Indian”. And he said: “I’m Indian… I just did it.” “No no no, like with an Indian accent”, and he says “I

don’t really feel comfortable” and they tell him “You know, Ben Kingsley did an Indian accent as

Gandhi” and he’s like, “Yeah, but he didn’t win an Oscar for Best Indian Accent”! Right? [Laughs] So it’s

just an interesting thing to deal with, that you don’t necessarily know if you’re going to have to play

stereotypical Asian or not and it’s just a weird thing. references a TV-series in which this is

problematized by an Indian actor.

Do you personally experience stereotypes regarding gender as well?

150 I do. I think that’s difficult. I think that I don’t see that as much first hand, I mean, because by the time I

get called in for an audition, they’re already looking for a woman, so I don’t see the kind of

discrimination that may happen behind the scenes. So they’re looking for a woman and there isn’t

some sort of discrimination where they’re casting a man or a woman and then a man will win, so I

don’t necessarily see it from that end, I don’t. I’m trying to think of the last time I was on set because

it’s one of those things, too, where I think I’m fortunate in a lot of ways where I think that - and this

may be good or bad - but maybe sometimes women are… people kind of tread more lightly around us.

You know what I mean? I think that they’re more careful to be… not apologetic, but they’re almost

nicer to women on set. And that might be a discriminatory thing, too, where they’re thinking like “Oh,

she might freak out”! Or, you know, it could be something like that. And I try to be as nice to the… I love

being on set, so I’m always happy when I’m there. And I feel like I can be pretty personable so I usually

find the smokers and then find my crew on set and usually hang out with the biggest burliest smoker

that day [Laughs]. So I think that when it comes to that kind of stuff I don’t necessarily feel the

discrimination firsthand.

When I interviewed Blake he talked about certain stereotypes for him as an Asian man. How do

you think gender comes into play with stereotypes?

I think that’s something that comes into play for sure. I think there’s a really unfortunate stereotype

about specifically black women and Asian men. I have a lot of female black friends and some of them

are on online dating and they were talking about this article they read about how it’s, statistically,

Asian men and black women are the least matched with on sites or on apps like Tinder. And there is

this thing that happened a weeks ago with Steve Harvey where he was making some joke about Asian

women and not wanting to date Asian men and I think that it’s just so fucking terrible. And it’s fairly

new to me. There’s the thing, and I like to tell this story about how when I was 19 or 20 and I was just

starting to go out, I was having my stupid little Hollywood club years. I’d go out with my friends and I

was the only Asian girl in a group of white women. And we would go out and there would be all these

actors there, like Leonardo DiCaprio and all of a sudden it’s really exciting when you’re 19 and living in

LA. But I was never hit on and I was totally fine with it, it was fun, I liked just going and hanging out,

but I had these white female friends who were just harassed all the time. And, I mean, harassed in a

good way - I guess harassed is a really bad word, because they enjoyed it and that’s what they were

used to.

151 So they got attention?

They got the attention! And, you know, I think that this attraction to Asian women is a newer thing. You

know what I mean? When I was in those clubs I wasn’t what was in style at all. I remember growing up

and it was all about blonde-haired blue-eyed women, it was all about Pamela Anderson back then. It

was just like culturally things change, tastes change. It’s something that I just didn’t experience. I didn’t

experience that kind of attraction. Leonardo DiCaprio never hit on me, he hit on my friends. You know?

[Laughs] But to be an Asian woman today as far as general society goes, I am looked on now - well, not

me specifically, but people, Asian women are looked on differently. I think that I’m fortunate in the

sense that a lot of Asian stereotypes can be seen as positive, like being good at math, and I am good at

math! You look at Asian people and you think they’re smart, you know what I mean? And I think that’s

a positive thing. I can’t imagine… then again, I can, because I have several black friends that talk about

the struggles that they go through. And while there is this positive connotation about Asian women,

I’ve also witnessed racism in the last four months that I’ve never witnessed before. I think that’s a

whole other thing, but there is this guy that came into the bar. I kind of mentioned earlier the bar that I

worked in [Unclear] predominantly Caucasian neighborhood, and there’s this kid who came in, he was

super drunk and mentioned at one point that he was in the military, so generally I just assumed he was

conservative, politically. And he started talking about Asians and he said “Oh, it’s not about those

south-east Asians, I don’t fuck with them. Now it’s all about the high class Asians from Tokyo and

Beijing”, and I was -

What was all about…?

I don’t know, he was just kind of generally staging racist ideas. And I’ve never seen him before but I

knew his friends and I was by myself behind the bar. And I was three feet away from him! And I look at

his friends and they kind of give me a really uncomfortable look and I look at him just to let him know

that I acknowledged him. At this point I’m not going to talk to him, I’m not going to say anything about

it but I just want him to know that I heard and that I ignored it. And a few minutes later one of my

regulars comes in, he was a gay man, and he looked like he was about to cry, like he was on the verge of

tears and he said: “Well, apparently being gay is a disease”.

So he said stuff about gay people as well?

Outside, yeah. Outside in the smoking area. He was just a terrible human being. And then there was

152 this whole thing where he wrote a yelp review about me the next day because I ended up kicking him

out. So somehow we started arguing about that and he said: “Well, what I said was outside, so it’s none

of your business and you just go back to working”, and I said “Well, actually you’re harassing my

customers, and you’re saying things that are homophobic and racist so what you’re saying is my

problem whether or not it’s inside or outside.” and so I said: “ You’re just going to have to leave, I’m

calling the cops”. He said “Okay. Okay I’ll talk to them”, because he figures he’s going to able to argue his

way out of it. So I start calling the cops and his friends convince him to leave, in the meantime his

friends, a few of them pass me money, they’re like ”I’m really sorry! Here is some money, he’s being an

asshole”, the other ones that closed down the tabs tipped at 50% and left a note saying “I’m sorry”.

Random people at the bar left notes that said “I’m so sorry you had to deal with that”.

Oh, okay. Did they help you?

They didn’t, but I like to think that I conduct myself in a way. I’ve been working at the same bar for

eight and a half years and as nice as I try to be and as great of service I like to think that I provide, I’m

also really good at standing up for myself because I only had a bouncer for the last four years, so for the

first three or four years I worked there I was by myself. So if I had a problem I had to take care of it

myself, so I can throw down the hammer pretty well [Laughs]. So I think that I have a lot of regulars

that are willing to step in if I need the help, but they know when to step in and they knew that I had a

handle on the situation. And there was another time just recently where I was stepping into an

elevator and there were these two teenage girls and it sounded like they were just messing around

saying gibberish and then all of a sudden as the elevator doors are closing, I hear: “Ching Chong

Elevator”! And I’m like, so my husband and I just look at each other and he said: “DId they just…?” and

yeah, they did. So we get out of the elevator and he’s like “I’m going back upstairs”. I’m like “No no, it’s

okay. Just let it go” and he’s “No, I’m going up”, so we get back on the elevator and he confronts them

and it turns out their parents are there and we have a whole discussion about how what they said was

inappropriate. So my husband is arguing with their dad and we didn’t know how young they were, I

think they were like 17 or 18, they weren’t kids. They were of sound mind, you know, they’re basically

adults at this point. And he and his wife are like: “Our kids say stuff like that all the time”, but that

doesn’t make it right. It’s offensive and it’s fucking racist! And people shouldn’t say that to you, that’s

not right. And it ended up that they were gypsies, and that’s something I’ve never even thought about,

oh, the discrimination of gypsies, That’s like a whole other thing. But anyway, it ended up okay. The guy,

153 he told my husband “I’m not going to apologize to you”, he’s like “I don’t need an apology! Just

apologize to my wife”, and he did and we ended things okay, but this is something that I’ve never

experienced before, just general outward racism. And I live in LA! [Laughs] You know?

Yeah.

I’ve gone and visited my husband’s hometown in Ohio and have been called ‘oriental’... In the most

loving way, I think! They’re like: [speaks in southern accent] “Oh, that oriental girl is so nice”! [Laughs]

They don’t have southern accents, it’s in Ohio. But it’s strange.

But that’s a thing I was thinking about as well, because when people think Asian or for example

if people call for an Asian actress for something... Do you ask for a specific type of Asian, like a

specific country, or is it more used as a broad term?

Oh, totally! I could be anything within the spectrum, that’s a whole other thing! And that’s an issue I

have too. I mean, I’m super FIlipino. I went to high school in the Philippines, I love the Philippines, it’s

beautiful place. I try to go when I can. And yeah. There’s no specific Filipino role, you know? I’m also

fortunate that I’m kind of ethnically ambiguous when it comes to Asians in general, I’ve played

Cambodian and Chinese, but yeah, that’s definitely an issue. I would like to help bring the Philippines

and our talent to the forefront. And I feel like Jamie Chung is this person that plays all Asian roles. You

know, she plays everything! And as much as I love an Asian girl getting that I also wish there were

someone more talented representing us.

Yeah. We talked about Scarlett Johansson before, you cast a white woman or a white actor for

another ethnicity, but does this kind of cross-casting happen the other way around?

No, never! I don’t think so. I would not be cast as white. [Laughs]

That is interesting! I think it’s interesting why they are choosing white or light skinned people

for roles for people of color. Did you hear about the Nina Simone biopic with Zoe Saldana? I

mean, she’s not a white woman, of course, but there was controversy about the casting.

I did, I did. Oh, gosh. There are so many things. People thought she was not black enough! And what is

happening with Samuel L. Jackson now, too, which I think is complete and utter bullshit. Did your hear

what they said about - ? So, ‘Get Out’ just came out. It’s fantastic! Are you familiar with the premise at

all? It is this black man who has a white girlfriend and he is for the first time going home to meet her

family. And there’s a really interesting setup where he’s like: “Have you told your parents that I’m

black?” and she says “No, they are totally cool. If my dad could have voted for Obama again, he would

154 have.” So they go home and it turns out they are essentially trying to… Oh, how do I explain this

without spoiling it for you? Anyway, it’s this thing about the struggle of black men, and it’s a horror

film, I’ll tell you that. It’s a horror thriller.

Oh, I think another person that I interviewed, he talked about this too, and he said “I can’t say

too much, but I want to mention it!”

Exactly right. But I’m trying to think about what’s in the trailer. So basically there are things about

hypnotism and you’re under the premise that he’s maybe getting basically kidnapped. I will say that,

that’s pretty vague. So this white family is trying to kidnap him, right? But there’s a lot more to it, I

definitely suggest you see it. But there’s a really crazy super important social undertone to it. And

Samuel L. Jackson came out and said that he wished that the lead role was played by and American

black man and not a British black man. He wanted someone who had gone through the struggle or who

feels the struggle every day. And I think that’s such an ignorant point of view, it’s so backwards to think

that there needs to be discrimination in between black men or to think that there’s no racism in the

UK, that there is no racism where he’s from. John Boyega was talking about it too, he’s the guy from

Star Wars. But the guy who was in it was just like “I just don’t know why we’re even talking about this

right now. That is so not an issue that we need to be concerned about” and I think that’s true.

I wanted to ask you something. We talked about stereotypes in casting calls or something. And

you mentioned that you worked in a bar. Is that something you do on the side, or how does this

fit with your acting jobs?

It is. I think the struggle of being an actor is when you’re not consistently working all the time, which is

a very small group. It is to make money while you have the freedom to go to auditions. So I work at a

bar because you work at night and that way you’re free all day, and I also have a day job that allows me

- my boss is great, she knows if I have an audition, I’m out, I’m not going to be there. So it’s hard

because you need to make money and sometimes you don’t know when residuals are coming and when

you’re going to book the next thing, and I have friends of all colors who struggle with this.

You talked about your husband and maybe there were more roles available to him in general.

Does he have a job on the side as well?

He does have a job on the side, but he hasn’t always had to. He’s worked really hard and he’s built up a

good body of work where his residuals are more consistent that mine are. I’m not saying it’s easy for

him at all, because I think that while there are more roles available to him, there is more competition

155 because there are a lot of handsome white male actors. [Laughs] So while the quality of his auditions

are better, I think that the competition is pretty fierce for him. So I think it’s one of those things where I

have less competition for less roles. You know? You just have to have a job on the side. It has not always

been this way, he’s been able to live as an actor without having a job on the side for a longer time than I

have. He’s working more consistently now because we just got married and we’re planning to start a

family at some point, so it’s not just us. It’s easy to eat ramen when it’s just you, but if you have a kid to

support I think you’ll be needing some vegetables at some point [Laughs]. But yeah, I think that it’s so

difficult. I’d like to leave the bar. I didn’t want to be here for eight years, I definitely don’t want to be

there for a decade. I keep thinking about what would change for me to be able leave and as much as I

like to stay positive about it, it’s essentially just booking a lead in something, which again, based on the

roles that are available to me is very hard. Or booking a series! And that’s hoping for an ensemble cast

where the lead would probably be white and then I would be like the great best friend who is in every

other episode. So I need that kind of consistently to be able to stop bartending.

So I don’t know if you’ve ever been auditioning or have been sent a brief or a casting call where

you felt it was racially offensive? Has that happened to you?

It’s funny. I’ve lied about having martial arts experience for a very long time. I think it’s things like that,

when they want someone specifically Asian who has experience in martial arts, and I eventually had to

take classes, because look, someone’s going to catch me at some point. So I did take lessons in Kung Fu

for a while to be like “Alright, I’m not lying anymore. I have Kung Fu experience”.

So to book the jobs you had to pretend - ?

Yeah!

Oh, okay. Is that expected of you, to know martial arts?

For some projects, yes, but I think when they cast someone who knows martial arts, they think it’s just

automatically going to be an Asian person. There was actually one time where I visited my husband on set

and the director came up to me immediately and said: “Do you have a black belt”? They were having

problems with an Asian role they were trying to fill. Someone had left because she actually thought that

the role was offensive, so she dropped out. They were having trouble replacing the role, and I had just

showed up to visit my husband who was in the movie, and they were like “Do you have a black belt? You

could be in this”! It’s just a weird presumption that people have. And Kung Fu is awesome, it was great to

learn it, but it’s interesting to need to learn it.

156 You mentioned working on the side as well, if you were to be put up for a certain role or you

came across a role that was maybe like you have to know martial arts, or something. Do you

ever feel like you have to take certain roles to work or can you filter around it?

No, definitely. Gosh. To have so few auditions and few opportunities I would definitely do whatever I

could to take the job. It’s one of these interesting things, too, because I always thought I wouldn’t do

nudity, and I still won’t. I would for the right role. But I got this breakdown and it was for a new Sam

Raimi Starz project, so it was for the Starz channel and it was going to be a live action version of an

anime and they wanted an Asian lead, and they’re like “Nudity required”. And I looked at it and i

thought: “Fuck. I have never gotten a breakdown for a lead in a series. I have to do nudity”! You know?

And I went on the audition and it was great. And then it’s a whole other thing where the project didn’t

go, and part of me really wondered if he were not able to greenlight it because it was an Asian lead.

Yeah, it’s a weird thing. As you get older, too, and as you spend more and more time in the industry,

you’re willing to do a lot of things. Except casting couch stuff [Laughs]. But I’ll learn to do whatever. I

think as a woman being more aware of my choice and my body nudity isn’t as much of a problem as I

get older anyway. It’s just my body. I can do whatever I want with it. [Pause] Do you want some more

water by the way?

Yeah, sure. We talked about these interesting casting choices that had to do with race, like Zoe

Saldana as Nina Simone or Scarlett Johansson and Emma Stone [Unclear mumbling in

background] but when certain roles are written with a certain race in mind, or for people of

color in general and they don’t play them, what do you think it communicates to both actors but

also to audiences of these ethnicities?

I think that it’s troubling, but I think people being vocal about it and just acknowledging the fact that

these are problems is such a big step. Even when it comes to roles that, and this is controversy as well.

Sam Jackson playing Nick Fury who is originally a white person, a white character. And white people

are up in arms about it! And you have silly people like Michelle Rodriguez saying: “We don’t need to fill

white roles, we’ll just write our own”, I think that’s ridiculous. I think it’s so difficult, just being more

aware that this is an issue. Things like this, what you’re doing is good. [Laughs]

[Laughs] I thought a lot about it, because I’m a white woman, obviously, and if I don’t feel

represented in media it’s never about race for me, it’s always about what type of person is this.

Like, I don’t particularly identify with - you talked about Pamela Anderson. I feel like white

157 people don’t think much about race in their daily life because it’s rarely an issue for them.

No, especially in Los Angeles. I so recommend you see Aziz Ansaris show. There is a character in that

show, he plays the hot friend and he’s just an Asian man. And they don’t talk about it, they’re just like

“All women love you”, they say things like that to him. It was such a revolutionary thing, to normalize

things like that is huge. And you have someone like Lena Dunham who is very vocal and quote un-

quote woke [Laughs] and she said “You know, if I were to do Girls again, I would cast not just solely

white women”. Yeah, it’s about things being normal. We’re all just people.

We talked about when growing up and seeing people, being able to identify with what you see in

the media or not. Has racial representations or lack of representation affected your own life or

how you grew up?

Yeah, definitely. I think that race was always a thing. Growing up the ideal woman was always a white

woman and I didn’t feel pretty. I still don’t on many days, you know, you have that one crazy uncle who

will help you with that, like “Get a nose job”! when you’re eight. Cool, thanks, uncle!

Oh! He says - ?

It’s terrible, he does that do everyone, not just me. There are little babies where he’ll be like “You’re too

dark”. That’s a whole other thing. Culturally, in our Filipino culture they love white people and they love

it when women in the family marry white men. And I did, hopefully it doesn’t have anything to do with

that. They actually use this phrase that’s called “improving the race” and it’s the most terrible thing I’ve

ever heard. So when you look at certain cultures Filipinos generally look at lighter-skinned Filipinos as

better. Filipinos generally look at lighter-skinned Filipinos as better. They look at the darker people as

poor and lighter-skinned people just have better, they call it, “better blood”. And all of that is terrible, it’s

all a terrible thing to say. It’s just appalling, it’s 2017 and there’s still this thought. When I go to family

parties they say “Have a baby, have a baby”! it’s because they want to know what it’s going to look like.

Oh, so they want the half-Filipino, half-white babies?

Yeah! They’re like “Get even lighter skin”, and I’m like “I’m trying to tan”! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

I know, it’s so bad, it’s crazy.

This leads me back to the Nina Simone incident… both the casting choice with Zoe Saldana but

also the idea to put makeup on her face to make her appear darker-skinned. What do you think

about the makeup-aspect?

158 Yeah, I don’t know. I guess for argument’s sake they could say that they wanted her to look more like

Nina, but I think they should just have just gone with it. But if they want a certain skin tone and a

certain nose, just cast that way. I don’t know. If have no explanation of how some people’s minds work

[Laughs]. I think that’s so interesting too, I think it’s such a weird problem for someone to not be black

enough also. It’s weird, it’s such a strange thing. Does Zoe identify as black? She does?

She said that because she is part Dominican and part Puerto Rican, she considers herself part

black. But having to do the makeup and the prosthetic nose rubbed some people the wrong way.

I think it just made me wonder about if you’re an actress of color, how do you navigate this and

what does that mean for your work life and for being in this business.

Yeah, I think it’s a constant struggle and every project is different. Every day is a new issue where you

have to really sit and figure out whether you’re doing the right thing, if you’re offending someone, if

you’re doing what’s right for your career. I mean, I wish I had seen Nina Simone. Every actress has an

actress and their career that they’d like to emulate and I love Zoe Saldana. It’s the same with Scarlett

Johansson. One of those things where you try not to blame these women because you know how much

of a struggle they’re in already to get equal pay and general respect and to be able to play the love

interest of someone who is five years older than them. You know there is that ageism problem in

Hollywood as well. You want these women who are getting older to continue to have successful careers

and you just hope that they sidestep these offensive situations. But sometimes it’s just, you can’t! And I

hope that things change. So last year I agreed to do this short film for a girl who I’ve met. She was 17

years old and we had the same manager, we went to workshop together and she asked if I would do the

project with her. A friend of hers is in one of these really amazing young storyteller type programmes

where they teach kids about filmmaking. So her best friend was doing this short film and I was cast as

the head mean girl. And it was all 17-year-olds, 17 year old writers, director, camera people, crew, cast.

I felt really old that day [Laughs]. And it was such a revelation for me to get on set and to be like “I’m

the only Asian person in this and you didn’t cast me as the best friend, you cast me as the head mean

girl”.

So did you wonder if it was linked to race or it was just a coincidence?

I don’t know. I think that I was hopeful for the future and thinking that maybe filmmakers that are 17

years old today and that will be working 20 years from now, 30 years from now, will look at that and be

like: “I’m going to cast whoever! I can cast whoever in whatever role and then things will change”. And I

159 think things are slowly changing, like I said being vocal about it helps. And I just hope that that’s the

start of it.

Thank you. I think that I asked everything I wanted to ask and I think you came around

everything. Do you have anything you’d like to add before I stop recording?

Oh, good. Yeah, what… I don’t think so, I think we’ve kind of covered everything. I think that the

struggle of being an actress is already so hard and being an actress of color is even harder. [Laughs]

You know?

Alright. On that note -

Yeah, on that very heavy note. [Laughs] Cool!

DESTINY

Age: 36

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress

Identifies as: Mixed White/Caucasian and African American/Native American. Prefers to call herself

“other”.

Maybe you could start by saying your age, your gender and what your relationship with the film

business is?

Okay. My name is Destiny and I‘m female and I’m 36 years old.

Yeah?

And I’ve been in the entertainment industry for a while but pursuing the professional career as an

actress in LA for the last 7 years. I was a dancer prior to that and still find work as a dancer

sporadically, but my main focus has been trying to dive into the entertainment world as a black

character in Hollywood.

Okay. So you would describe your ethnicity as black, then?

I personally would describe it as “other” whenever there is a bubble. I just tend to gravitate towards

“other” because I don’t necessarily like to be put in a particular category even though that is the way

that the world likes to see people.

160 Yeah.

My mother is Swedish or Scandinavian, so Caucasian, and my dad is Native American and African

American. So, genetically I’m only a quarter black, but it is a very dominant gene that I carry, so that is

the category I have been placed in. But if I have a choice I like to not [pauses] choose.

Okay. So people will kind of place you or assume what your ethnic background is, or?

Yeah. Well, Hollywood has coined this term ‘ethnically ambiguous’, so there are moments depending on

how good a hair day that I’m having, or whatever, that I could fall into the ethnically ambiguous

category, but I think that Hollywood - and I think that I’m even guilty of it myself - they have a certain

expectation. There is a certain presentation of yourself when you’re put into that black category. They

expect you to fill that character. It’s more of a character than an actual ethnicity.

On that note, when you go for auditions, do you feel like there are certain roles that you are

expected to play based on your racial background?

Yeah! Oh, absolutely. Most of the breakdowns, about 90% of the breakdowns that I see or that I’m

“right for” [Makes quotations marks with her fingers], the first thing they put is your ethnicity, like

“Her name is Karen, she’s African American, she’s in her mid-twenties.” They might give you a

profession, but then they just list a bunch of adjectives and descriptions of who this person is. A lot of

times within those breakdowns it is, like, “she’s rough, grew up on the streets”, you know, things of that

nature. I can’t really remember some of the ways they describe these girls in these breakdowns. I have

a direct feeling when I see a breakdown that is requiring me to - for lack of better term - be blacker

than I am. I have a very hard time with that, because I don’t know what that actually means. I have a

depiction of it from what Hollywood has led us to believe being black is. But there are so many

different versions of black and I definitely have a harder time falling into that stereotype.

Yeah. What do you do if you’re presented with a role that has certain stereotypes or is offensive?

Do you, or can you work around that?

Well. There is no one answer to that question, really, because it depends on the project. If it is a project

that I feel passionate about or instantly connected to, then I have to push aside my own insecurities

about my blackness. Because I kind of feel like some of these stories need to be told. But if I look at the

script of the sides that I’m given for my audition and it is just so far from my normal speech and so far

from my understanding of my own personal experiences with being black, then I will call my manager

and I will let him know that this one just isn’t for me. You know, there are varying levels of [laughs]

161 black, I guess, according to Hollywood. I’m binge-watching this show right now called ‘Unreal’. Have

you heard of this show?

I have heard the title, but I have not watched it yet.

Okay. It’s really interesting that I’m watching this show and doing this with you right now. It is a

scripted show that is written about, behind-the-scenes of a show like “The Bachelor”. You’ve heard of

that show?

Yes, the reality show, right?

Reality show, yes. I remember the second season they were really trying to blow some things up and

really shed some light on different topics, one of them being that the bachelor has never had a black

suitor. So the man that all of the women are fighting for, on the show, has been written as a black

character. That allowed them to write in more female black characters for the show, and I remember

auditioning for the season. There was two black girls that they were emphasizing or focusing on. One

of them, her name is Ruby, she’s a black power activist. That’s just how she lives her life, that’s how she

was raised, that is how she maneuvers through space. She is always fighting for Black Lives Matter. And

then the other girl, Chantelle, she’s more of the black beauty queen. But none of her topics revolve

around her ethnicity at all. She is just the - for lack of better terms - the more whitewashed version of

the African American representation on the show.

Can you elaborate a bit on her being a whitewashed black girl, what does that mean?

Sure. She, the black activist girl on the show, has her natural hair. It’s curly, it’s kinky, it’s afro-y. It’s just

her in her most natural state. The whitewashed girl has a weave put in her hair so it’s long and flowy

and obviously not hers, but this is just the presentation of who she is. I kind of feel like - without saying

so on the show - the juxtaposition of these two women, this one is all about being black and being

proud of it, and this one just hasn’t even mentioned it at all. It’s just not even a thing. She’s a bit more

well-spoken as well. And I just remember going in for that audition and thinking: “I don’t really live in

this world of Ruby, the black activist”, I live in this world over here because I was raised by my white

mother. I didn’t have a connection to my blackness for a very long time, like, well into my twenties. I

remember thinking “Man, I wish I had the opportunity to go for this role as opposed to this one”. But I

think that the fact that they are both on there is a wonderful representation of the varying differences

of what it means to be black in Hollywood. I don’t know if that made any sense.

That makes total sense.

162 Oh, good!

I wanted to ask you about auditions and these varying degrees of blackness that you talked

about as well. You talked about the sleek hair versus the natural hair, for example, and being

whitewashed. I saw a BuzzFeed video where people were looking at briefs or casting calls of

when race is put forth. It made me wonder how realistic that was for an actor of color. For

example, they needed a lot of girls for a film, and they had categorized them, A girls, B girls, C

girls, D girls. And it was explicitly written that the A girls were either white or lighter skinned

and then the further down the list they went, the blacker they became. How realistic is that sort

of breakdown, and how do you feel about seeing people being categorized based on the color of

their skin?

I wouldn’t even know what to do with that! As sad as it is, the way that they categorize us and the way

that race plays such a role in casting, it’s like we just have to play the game. I have to put myself into a

box as much as I try and fight it, as much as I don’t feel like I believe that or belong there. In order to

get where I want to go, I just have to play this role. So, yeah, sometimes we just don’t have a choice and

I look forward to the day that I do actually get a choice.

Do you think it’s changing?

I do. I do think that there has been a very big shift this year because we’re currently in the middle of

pilot season right now, right? And I know some actors, Caucasian actors, that have not been able to get

as many opportunities this pilot season so far, because I do feel there is something shifting in them

trying to oversaturate us with some other ethnicity in television right now. Which I don’t think is a bad

thing, I do think there needs to be a gigantic push - gigantic push! - in that direction. But I don’t think

it’s going to take just one season for us to balance out this playing field, so that it’s no longer like “We

have written this show for a lead that is African American and this and that” or “We have written this

show for a white lead with her ethnic supporting cast all around her”, so it doesn’t even need to be that,

we just need people who can tell the story no matter what they look like.

I have auditioned more this pilot season than I have in the past, granted, I have been building my

resume to have more people paying attention to me, but at the same time I feel like I’m just falling into

this category of “We’re pushing ethnicity so hard right now”.

We talked about feeling that you are expected to play a certain role before. Do you feel like

there are certain characters you are not expected to play?

163 I wouldn’t know what kind of characters those are, but yeah, I’m sure there are a lot of things out there

that they would never consider putting a black person in that role or that position. But I don’t know

what they would be, right off the top of my head. I feel like Hispanic roles, Asian roles or Indians, they

fall into an even smaller represented category in Hollywood, because I do think that for the most part,

if it’s not going to be a white person, it’s going to be a black person. That is just how I feel, overall, in

general. But I do love Shonda Rhimes for her blanket ethnic casting, all over the place. She’s not afraid

to have two girls with big afros in one scene, which is amazing to me, and I see it very seldomly. I’m still

waiting for an Indian show or an Indian lead, and Indian love interest or an Indian leading man, we’re

still waiting for a lot of that stuff, but I don’t feel like African Americans have not had those

opportunities. We’ve been the leading man, we’re leading, we are the heads of shows, with Kerry

Washington, Viola Davis, you know. And I think that if we are not being represented enough, there are

people like Tyler Perry and David Italbur that are writing things to make sure that we are represented

somewhere. Right now I feel like the bigger fights are coming from the Asian community, the Indian

community, the Hispanic community.

[Pause, keyboard tapping noises] Just taking notes.

Yeah, yeah!

Um… You talked about earlier when you have to identify your ethnicity, it’s usually ‘other’,

because you’re multiethnic, right? Do you feel like you see yourself represented in media in

general?

Yeah, I definitely have those experiences for sure. There is a ton of mixed race actors out there. What

I’m seeing a lot more now in commercials even is interracial couples. I’m seeing the black girl with my

texture of hair, with her Caucasian husband, we’re seeing that. And their kids are obviously of a mixed

race as well, they have big blonde curly afros. I’m seeing so much more of that represented in

commercial television and Shonda Rhimes’ Thursday Night TV Takeover. New media is taking things in

a different direction, they’re getting out of what is stereotypically seen on major network tv shows.

There is just so much ethnically diverse television going on, especially in new media.

How do you see racial diversity in film versus in television? Are there any differences?

I’ve mostly had the honor of working in television. I think that overall, just running through some films

in my head right now, I feel that there is a lot of ethnicity going on in film. Of course, I would always

love for there to be more. Always. Just so it’s a better representation of what is going on on the regular.

164 I definitely feel like overall, things have been pushing in a more ethnically diverse direction. We still

have a long way to go. A long way. But I don’t think that we’re lacking or slacking, they’re trying to

make it happen. I’m not in the inner workings of how it gets made, all I do is get the call from my agent

and if it’s something I’m really excited about, we just go to the audition.

I’ve been asking people about this, because when I came here to Los Angeles, I’ve been seeing a

lot of posters with Scarlett Johansson, from ‘Ghost in the Shell’.

Oh, yes.

And do you know the controversy behind it? Some people have critiqued both Scarlett

Johansson and the people behind the film, because the story used to be a Japanese anime. A lot

of people felt like it should be an Asian woman as the lead. The reason Scarlett Johansson gave

was that it was a great female role for her to play. I wanted to ask you about what you think of

casting choices like this, where a white person is cast in place of someone who could have been

a person of color, and also the woman aspect.

I would love to think that the best person to tell the story got the job. I don’t know if that is actually the

case, I don’t know what went on with those casting people, but I wish that we could just focus on the

story more than the color of our skin. I think because it was an animated story to begin with, that just

opens it up to anybody to take that. If Scarlett Johansson gave the best read or thought that she could

take it, then okay, I’m all for that. If nobody else was given an opportunity, that would be terrible.

Have you heard about the film that came out last year about Nina Simone’s life? It was called

“Nina”, and Zoe Saldana was cast to play Nina Simone.

Yes. Did that ever come out?

It came out, but some people were upset about that as well, mainly because her skin was made

darker and she was given a prosthetic nose.

But do we know that they could find someone who looks like that? Within the parametres, the time

frame, the location. It is really challenging to play an actual person that lived, that survived. Just

recently I was given the biggest opportunity in my career, to play Josephine Baker.

Yeah?

She is fantastic and beautiful, and she was definitely taller than me, we don’t really look similar at all.

Of all of the people that were given the opportunity, the casters, the producers, the writers felt that I

was able to tell the story the best. And Josephine Baker, she has to be able to sing and be able to dance

165 to act on this show. And to find that, sometimes they have to compromise. Before I went in to film, I

was feeling very heavy because I felt so much pressure to represent this woman as best as I possibly

could, knowing that we didn’t have a whole lot of things in common. Her voice is very different than

mine, our facial structures are very different, but she was a remarkable woman, and that was the only

thing I decided to focus on. I think there is always going to be someone having a problem with the way

that a role has been cast, especially when it comes to the diversity issue. I think it’s hard enough on

actors to be able to portray the true essence of this actual human being that had a life. So what if she

had to get a prosthetic nose to get her to look a little bit more like the character? I think that should be

more of the focus, they are trying to make her look like the character. We have this amazing, beautiful,

strong actress who is able to go the extra mile to get this story told, to represent the woman in the light

that she needs to be represented in. It’s not an easy thing to do, so I say hats off to Zoe Saldana for

taking on such a challenge like that, knowing that there is going to be criticism attached to it no matter

what. Everyone is always going to have a problem with somebody, I wish that we could just focus on

the story and the experiences and not make it such a racial thing all the time. There is always so much

more to the story. As a consumer, we’re only seeing the finished products.

Right. I also wanted to know what you thought about the recent Oscar ceremony, and Moonlight

winning best picture?

Yes, that was so very interesting. I think because I do fall into the black category, I’m always rooting for

the more African American driven projects to be recognized, but I was in ‘La La Land’. I was a dancer in

the opening scene, so I was voting for both. Secretly voting for both, I guess. With the way that the

Oscars went last year and the African Americans just being completely unrepresented and then for this

to happen this year, it was a glorious moment of a representation of the underdog coming through in

the end. But I think the entire African American community was disappointed that Moonlight missed

out on that moment. That moment, rising up from their seat, last award of the night. They missed that,

that chance, that opportunity, to take that walk onto the stage and just relish. But in the end I am so

glad that regardless, they got what they deserved.

Even though you were in the other movie?

Yes. I think that La La Land did very well this year, so I’m [Laughs] okay with Moonlight taking the

academy award on that one.

Alright. I think that you came around everything I wanted to ask you.

166 Did we do it? Great!

Do you want to add anything?

No, I think that it’s really wonderful that you are doing this. Thank you for taking time to meet with so

many different people and squeezing me in.

Likewise! Thank you.

No, yeah. I just wanted to thank you. I wasn’t sure that I was going to be able to say anything about it,

because no one asks us these things. I’m sure it’s a common discussion about my black actor friends

but this isn’t really a topic that gets discussed interracially for me, so thank you. Am I your last

interview? You’re leaving tomorrow, right?

Yeah. Unless someone writes me back last minute, you’re the last one. How was your experience

being interviewed?

It was fine, I just think sometimes I’m not the best representative of the black fight. I was raised by my

white mother and I faced my own personal challenges in my home and whether I wanted to identify

with one or the other, and my mother was leaning towards one direction, but I think I was

gravitationally being pulled in another. And I choose to live my life in somewhat of an ignorance

because I would rather not be a color. I would rather not be a category. And for some reason I feel like

my subconscious or my heart thinks if we don’t identify with one particular thing, people will stop

seeing me as one particular thing. I don’t think I have the same opinion as some of my friends. I just

want to be Destiny, I don’t want to be that black girl called Destiny. I think we’re just programmed to

see our differences, unfortunately. The shift is happening, it’s just happening very slowly.

SELENA

Age: 30

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress, casting assistant and office production assistant

Identifies as: Asian, Filipino European

What is your age and gender?

I’m female and I’m 30 years old

167 What is your occupation and relationship to the film business? I work as an actor, casting

assistant, and office production assistant

How would your describe your ethnicity?

Complicated! My father has roots in Sweden, France and Spain. My mother is from a small island in the

Philippines called Samar.

When consuming films and other visual media, do you feel like you see your own race

represented?

Somewhat. For the longest time, because I am so ethnically ambiguous, I would look at the faces in

visual media, compare them to mine, and decide that the standard of beauty was on screen, and beauty

was not something that my face represented. It wasn't until later that I made the connection between

the lack of Asian faces being represented in the media and my lack of confidence and distorted ideal of

beauty.

Are there certain races you feel lack representation in film?

Most, but I do notice especially when American Indian, Asian, and Hispanic peoples do not show up in

the film.

As an actress, do you find that your race has an influence on your work life and how co-workers

and other people in the film industry perceive you?

Race does influence my work life mostly from an actor's perspective, because as an actor it is all about

branding yourself. It is completely based off of what you look like or could look like.

What roles are available for you to play?

Usually the assassin or the nerdy tech girl

Are there roles you feel like you’re not expected to play? If yes, which types of roles are these?

It's a little difficult for me to think about since it is already 2017, but I doubt I could be the lead in a

story or series.

If you have auditioned for these types of roles without being chosen or called back, what are

some of the reasons you have been given for someone not choosing you?

You don't really get that kind of feedback, usually, but when I have gotten feedback on something it's

just because they needed someone "more Asian".

When or in what contexts do you see race being called upon or mentioned in casting calls?

All the time, most casting notices are very explicit in what races they want to see in a specific role.

168 Can you give me some specific examples of this? Are there different contexts for different races?

The most prevalent way I see this is when they provide a prototype for the person they want in the

role, i.e. "A young Michael B Jordan".

Do you personally experience stereotypes towards your race in the process of casting?

I am seeing less and less hurtful stereotypes as we go along, but stereotypes still exist, and I don't

know if it is as much of an issue of the presence of stereotypes as much as it is an issue of on-screen

representation. If all people see of Asians or any other races are stereotypes on screen, then it is

hurtful. But if we were represented more, with and without stereotypes, the general idea of different

races becomes much more rounded and more nuanced. If all America sees are Long Duck Dongs on

film, that is the only image America sees in visual media. If there are Long Duck Dongs AND Jessica

Huangs AND Olivia Munn characters, there is a whole range of people that are represented.

Do you personally experience stereotypes regarding gender? Do you find that certain

stereotypes on gender are linked to different races in specific ways?

ALWAYS. There are so many casting notices for "love interest of main character", it is gross. And yes,

certain stereotypes on gender are linked to different races. Asian women, for example are fetishized,

but Asian men are seen as unattractive or impotent.

As an actress, how do you act if you are offered or presented with stereotypical roles?

If the stereotypes are too far gone, I ignore the casting notice. If there is substance to it, I will

sometimes jump in to play with the material. Being ethnically ambiguous also helps in breaking any

stereotypes, just because the stereotypes aren't really there for people of mixed race (at least none

strongly portrayed in visual media - yet).

How would you describe the representations of non-white versus white people that you

generally encounter when watching films?

The sheer ratio of white people versus non-white is, to me, archaic.

What are your thoughts on the Oscars and the most recent Oscar ceremony? I love that Moonlight

won best picture! But I also do think that the set up for the Oscars, their voting system, is a little

outdated, or is full of older people who are used to older movies and a specific way of making movies,

and they vote what they know.

The casting of white or lighter skinned actors for non-white roles appears to be a tendency in

Hollywood (for example Scarlett Johansson in "Ghost in the Shell" or Emma Stone in "Aloha").

169 What are your thoughts on this?

Ghost in the Shell is a fictional sci-fi, and I don't really believe she was supposed to have a race in the

original manga. I do think that this type of casting is a lost opportunity every time. One counter-

argument I have heard is that Asian markets also like white or light-skinned actors and that is why

they usually cast the way they do. But I don't believe that Hollywood would have to cater to outside

markets, and I believe that maybe they can afford to be more inclusive in their casting.

Zoe Saldana was cast to play Nina Simone in the biopic "Nina", but was put in dark makeup for

her role to resemble Nina Simone more closely. What are your thoughts on this choice? Why do

you think her skin was made to appear darker in stead of choosing to cast an actress with a

similar skin tone to Nina Simones in the first place?

This is something that confuses me completely. I think maybe it comes back to Zoe Saldana's popularity

in the movies that came before "Nina," and the production wanted to profit off of her name.

In your opinion, what do casting choices like the ones mentioned above communicate to non-

white actors and audiences?

It communicates that we are not a part of the narrative within the fantasy world that movies create for

us. We imagine in whiteness, we see white heroes, white protagonists, white leading ladies; and maybe

most people don't notice immediately. But on a subconscious level we notice a loss of representation.

In your opinion, are there any effects or consequences of different levels of racial

representation in film? If yes, what kind of effects?

I'm sure there are a lot of consequences that we haven't even touched on yet, but one that I know from

personal experience is that my self-esteem has truly suffered. And I am sure a lot of people who do not

see themselves reflected on screen can question how society sees them and subsequently where they

are able to go in this society.

Has racial representations or a lack of representation impacted your own life? If yes, in what

way? For a long time I did not own my specific kind of beauty because I did not see it anywhere and

therefore did not consider myself beautiful or good enough. I wonder what I would have been capable

of if I had seen myself reflected on screen, at an earlier age.

170 GROUP INTERVIEW WITH HANNAH, MELANIA AND CHANTÉ

HANNAH

Age: 31

Gender: Female

Occupation: Director, writer, producer

Identifies as: White

MELANIA

Age: 30

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress, writer, producer

Identifies as: White

ANGELA

Age: 31

Gender: Female

Occupation: Actress, writer

Identifies as: Mixed. African American and Latin/Hispanic.

Would you all mind saying what your name and occupation is, just for the record?

Hannah: I'm Hannah, I'm a writer/director.

Melania: I'm Melania, I came to LA as an actor, but now I am also a writer and a producer.

Angela: I'm Angela, I'm a actor, and because of them, kind of a writer.

Hannah: Angela says everyone is a writer. There's no such thing as an aspiring writer. If you're writing,

you are a writer.

When I came here I saw a lot of posters for Ghost in the Shell. I was wondering what you thought

about casting Scarlett Johansson? It was a japanese anime, and now they turned it into a movie

with real people.

171 Angela: It's ridiculous.

Melania: What, they couldn't find an asian actor or what?

Angela: There was also Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot where they got white people to play muslims. You

couldn't find muslim actors to fill up this movie?

Hannah: It goes even further back with Hilary Swank playing a transgender character. Arguably this

was back in '96 or whatever, so the world has changed, but it would be nice if we would just fucking

cast accordingly. I wish we would stop doing remakes and sequels.

Angela: For Moulin they are actually bringing in an asian.

Hannah; That's good because these people can bring truth to the character. And it's also like, it would

never be the other way around.

Melania and Angela [Simultaneously]: Never!

Melania: The only one we have is Harold and Kumar, and we thought, oh that could have been white

guys. They always use the excuse that it's about historical accuracy

Angela: Oh yeah, like there weren't any black people around the civil war, or the westerns or the

second world war. One of our favorite shows right now is ‘Timeless’ on NBC. They do a great job with

their diversity. It's cheesy but it's good. The black character goes to ‘Lone Ranger’ and he says you

should do the interview because you don't want a white guy in a mask taking over your story in the

future. It was so funny because the lone ranger had been whitewashed - my whole life I thought it was

a white guy in a mask, but it turned out it was a black guy, and it took ‘Timeless’ to tell that story on

NBC. Whitewashing has effect!

I've been asking everyone I interview about Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell, but also the

Nina Simone biopic with Zoe Saldana.

Angela [Buries her face in her hands]: Oh my god!

Melania: I don't know, I didn't watch it. Did you watch it?

Hannah: That's a question for you, my friend [Nods to Angela]

Yeah.

Angela: Okay, now we get into colorism and casting. The argument was that we asked the best person,

even if she was also a producer. I've had this argument with a lot of people, and I've had it with my

Jewish black instructor, and he said, well she was probably the best to tell the story. I get that.

Why the blackface then?

172 Angela: So we go to Broadway and I meet all these spectacular singers, who are Tony Award winning

singers, and the same skin tone as Nina Simone. And what made people angry was that Nina Simone's

heartache was her skin color. And they didn't have enough sensitivity towards that. That's what drove

her, that was her pain. Her teeth, her lips, her nose, was part of her pain, and you dishonor her by not

choosing an African-American actor. You have a Latina – she's African-Latina from an island – but you

have a Latina telling the story of a black woman who was discriminated against and criticized for not

being pretty enough. And you take a pretty Latina, paint her darker, change her nose. You take away

something that made Nina Simone and you whitewash it. People were just insulted. They couldn't

make the argument that the couldn't find actors who were good enough, because there were singers

who are Tony Award-winning singers. I love her, but she hasn't won anything. I think people boycotted

it because of that. I went to Harvard, and we would watch ‘Eyes on the prize’ every year before we

would go to law school. They make you watch it. I had my suspicion about how much colorism played

into his ability to argue in front of the supreme court, but to have a darker toned guy... It's opposite

colorism, because it plays into the story, so how is that gonna come across?

Hannah: I think everyone learned from the Nina-movie. And the Matt Damon movie. And this Scarlett

Johansson thing, which I think is gonna be a success.

Scarlett Johansson was asked why she took the part, and she said that to her it was not about

race, it was about a really strong female character. What do you think?

Angela: I think it's interesting. I think it will do just fine, but it could backfire. Like, did you seriously

try to look for an asian woman?

All: No!

Angela: ...or did you just offer her the role because her name would carry weight?

Melania: I don't know whether they would claim that there are no Asian women who are that big.

Hannah: But there are in China. They are more marketable than any American.

Melania: They have algorithms for that, who can carry a movie. And it's only like four women and 78

guys. So that sucks. But why aren't there? But it's because we never give them the opportunity, and as

long as we don't it's not gonna change.

Hannah: That's where indie film comes into play. That's why indie film is gonna be the most important.

Scarlett started with Winter's Bones which was independent. Gina Rodriguez started with a indie

movie, before she moved on to the big studios. The indie films have to do this.

173 Angela: I will say as an African American actor, that's what I focus on. I would love to be on TV, but

nobody will love you before indie does. Every minority is begging to get through the door.

Melania: Because when you’re in an indie movie you're proving that you are marketable and can carry

a movie.

So you move from indie to the mainstream?

Angela: Every time. I forgot her name, but she did the movie You Might be a Douchebag, which was at

Sundance, and she booked a pilot right after that.

Returning to the casting choices and the exclusion of some people, what do you think it

communicates to both non-white actors and audiences?

Angela: Nobody wants you until somebody wants you. The are a lot of talented black people and

LGBTQ people, but they are more likely to take a chance on a non-minority instead of someone like us.

So we constantly have to prove that somebody liked us to get booked. That's why a lot of my friends

work so hard to get into indies, because it opens up doors, and you get chances you would never get

otherwise. It's unfair, but you learn the game, and then you play the game.

Hannah: What you also need to remember is who just got elected president of this country. We just had

a conversation about how this was white supremacy's last stand. They're frustrated because they had

just decided that Obama was a terrible president, and I don't think it had merit. I think it was just one

factor – there were other factors contributing, but you know – I think a lot of it had to do with him

being the first black president. They wanted him to fail. I come from the South. My brother doesn't

believe in white privilege. It's like, of course you don't. You're a straight white man. It's not in your

interest to believe in it. Because then it makes you a failure, you had it easier than everyone else. I

know first hand that it's very true. That's why I moved to California – I couldn't stay in Georgia, I

couldn't stay in the South. If you go to Atlanta... The racial tension there, it's palpable. It comes from

both sides. Everyone's angry. It's just very interesting, because then you come to California, and I feel

California is very European in it's mindset. I love Europe. We go to Europe as often as possible. Out

here it's just a completely different country. It's like its own world. It's basically the guys in charge, the

people making the decisions, that are just doing it because it's comfortable and they don't want to

reach out.

Melania: I don't know if you're encompassing television in your project or it's just movies?

People have mentioned it. I might want to include it because the people I speak to are often

174 referencing television.

Melania: Alright. I think with Hollywood there's an unconscious bias. People don't like to talk about it

or acknowledge it. People would never say ”Oh, I'm racist”, because it's subconscious and on a day-to-

day basis I don't think they consider themselves as such. They wouldn't call themselves racist. But

unconscious bias is a very powerful thing in this business. I was reading this thing... Shonda Rhimes

was incredibly powerful in TV. She's had the power to make incredibly important network decisions.

She gave her casting director the mandate to be colorblind. ”Bring in the best people, regardless what

race they have”. And sometimes I would say regardless of their gender, as long as it was not particular

to the story. That was revolutionary for the casting director. She was like ”Wow, that's amazing, I never

had that.” Now, if that's in the last five to ten years, that's pretty sad. I don't know if it takes a black

woman for us to do colorblind casting, but I will say that she probably has a bit more insight than other

people. The fact that not all shows are born this way is not only to the detriment of society as a whole,

but to the detriment of how the stories are told, in my creative opinion. I think you can't really have

original storytelling when it's just the same people over and over again, it gets boring, and the show

will just end up being cancelled – whereas Shonda Rhimes is obviously doing okay for herself.

Hannah: I think if we had a black, female, preferably lesbian president we'd be in a much better place.

[Turns to Angela] You audition all the time, what's your perspective?

Angela: I know when I first came to LA people told me that it was gonna be the same people every

time I went to a casting. They look like you, they're all within the same body type. And I found out

that's not true. For Shonda’s shows that I've gone in for, there have been every race. So it's true –

they're very serious about that. For other shows I've been in for... I've been in places where it was race

neutral and we didn't even have the same essences. And that's wonderful.

What do you mean, essences?

Angela: Like, we all have different personalities and you can see that from the outside. Every actor

brings their own experience, their own backgrounds to the role, so when you add a layer on – that

we're all from different races – you really have a much broader interpretation, which is great for the

creative team because somebody, where they might have this particular persontype in mind, and they

bring in another person, and they do a phenomenal job. And they're like, oh I never thought that role

could be done that way. That person brought in their experience, and because they're a different

ethnicity you're never gonna have ten people coming in doing exactly the same thing with little

175 variation. You're gonna get it from all over the place, what better serves the story. So I think that to

their point, by having colorblind casting, it's completely benificial. Both for the actors who get a much

broader variety of roles. I don't just get called in for ”black female number 35”. I like being able to go in,

knowing that no one looks like me. There's no pigeon holing. And I love that. That's what casting

should be about. Granted, it creates more competition for everybody. Because if it's just ”white girl” or

”asian girl” and you're like, oh, they're just looking for one of those. And there are times when that

serves the story, it's what you're gonna have to have, but I will say that even in that instance, not all

black people are alike, not all chinese people are alike, not all white people are alike. So they still bring

in all sorts of people. I think I told Melania the other day that I’ve maybe been to castings where I

looked around and thought: “Oh my God, we all look exactly alike. We're all light-skinned with curly

hair”. And you realize they want a mixed chick. You know what they're going for. It's not like that

anymore. Now you go in and there's maybe the darker girl with the straight hair. The dark girl with the

curly hair. The light skinned girl with the kinky hair and so on. And I think it serves the story. It gives

the creative team so much more to choose from. We're breaking that out slowly, and not as fast as

everybody would like, but change hurts, change doesn't always move overnight, but we're changing.

Hannah:I would say, from a director's point of view , I'm writing a script right now that's essentially

colorblind. I have ideas but I want to be open-minded in the casting. The idea is that we'll write for the

actor, so we're writing the dialogue, but once they're cast we'll write it again to suit their style and

their voice. I think collaboration in that sense is really beneficial, it works better for the story.I had an

unconscious bias. Melania and I wrote a script together, it's a psychological thriller. For the first two

years the protagonist was a straight white man, and it was because it felt comfortable. We've seen it

before and I was trying to sell this movie. It wasn't until two years that our producer, who is a black

man, sat us down and said: “This isn't working, the dialogue is shit, you don't connect with this

character, he doesn't work”. That's when we changed it to a lesbian - which I happen to be - and that

was when the film took off because I was able to speak from the character's point of view. I think that

it's interesting that I'm always

talking about diversity, and here I am writing a script with a straight, white, male protagonist.

Melania: Now you're gonna have to make me anonymous for saying this, but the thing is... It's indicative

to me that the people who still make a large amount of creative and economic decisions in this

industry are mostly white, mostly straight and mostly men. Even if you changed those categories we

would still be stuck in the trenches, making the same stupid decisions that don't reflect the audience 176 you're serving. I think if you do step out of it... To me, inclusion, diversity, whatever those buzzwords

are, they are active choices. We just have more experience of it because of the people we are and we

have people in our lives that we want to see represented. If you're a straight, white dude who has never

thought about it, how on earth would you start thinking about active inclusion? All those people in

power, look at the stats. Look at who the studio heads are, or who's working. I'll guarantee you it's not

50/50. I'll guarantee you it's not representative of the African-American population in this country, or

the gay population. I'm not saying you have to be a woman, or you have to be black, or you have to be

gay, to tell those stories, but first of all it doesn't hurt, and second of all you're gonna be more likely to

think of your own story first.

Angela: They [Hannah and Melania] helped me write my first script. When I did my very first pass I had

my family read it with me, and I did the same thing. I made the white girl the nice girl, the heroine, the

savior, and I made the black girl the angry woman, and I made the Latina girl the asshole. My friend e-

mailed me and said: “What are you doing? You just wrote this and you hit on all the stereotypes”! We all

do it, and I was even trying consciously not to. I still did it.

Hannah: That's what we were raised on

Melania: Exactly. It's ingrained in our brains: That's what we need to write, because that's what people

want to see. But it's the exact opposite. Just look at the awards. People are starving for new stories.

They don't want to see remakes, they don't want any more fucking superhero movies. They want actual

stories from new perspectives, that's why ‘Moonlight’ won.

Hannah: The rollercoaster of that, by the way, perfectly represents the rollercoaster of a relationship I

have with this business. A while in I was like, “That's it, I'm moving home, there's no point trying in this

business”, and then like, “Oh, we can stay”.

Angela: Yeah, it felt like the election, but in reverse. We actually won this time. I felt like we just lost

again.

Hannah: That's a perfect example. When have you seen a story of a gay black man, a coming of age

story, and it wasn’t mainstream by any means? It was just in the right place at the right time.

Angela: I think one of the points we were talking about was that after last year, when the Oscars were

so white and it really blew up, they added more diverse races to the academy, and my position was that

the academy was always on the cusp, leaning towards movies that were not part of the establishment,

and I think they added 600 people – then it flipped. Now it's more of a 50/50, and I'm sure all those

177 600 people voted, because they care, it's exciting, you're gonna have a voice in the Oscar, and because

of them it flipped in such a dramatic fashion. So dramatic. We have a black LGBTQ independent movie

that was made for less than three million, written by this young guy, it was based on his story coming

out of Miami, literally the bottom of the United States... And it's like, America says, this is us, this is

what we want to see. And I think it's gonna blow up now, because Hollywood is always ahead, while

being two steps behind.

Hannah: One of the other things that's changing are... The studios are gonna keep making super hero

movies. They don't take risks. So indie film is exploding again, and because of Netflix and Amazon you

can be purchased for the first time in years. You don't have to ask for a release. Ten years ago when I

started that was how it was, but now... We just sold a documentary to Hulu. You're able to reach your

audience so much quicker. There are so many outlets now, and that is very inspiring. Room for more

perspectives and more voices. And they are gonna keep winning the awards, and once the business

realises how much money they are making, and that you don't need to spend 150 million dollars

making a movie, you spend 2.

Angela: You spend like what, 4, that they spent on Moonlight. You make 180 million I think it is now on

Get Out? Or Moonlight?

Melania: I feel like it's a really diverse cast too.

Hannah: It really just had the theme of racial tension.

Angela: ...and where America is as a nation right now.

Melania: We talked about it, how if Hillary had been elected ‘Moonlight’ wouldn't have done so well.

Angela: I think it was Vanity Fair or Entertainment Focus, or maybe Variety, that talked about how

shows like 24 Legacy and Training Day, which are reboots of movies turned into TV Shows, and they

are struggling, even though they have a diverse cast. Would those TV shows have had the same low

ratings had it been Hillary's America?

Hannah: You have to remember that politics and film go hand in hand. You go back to the current

politican climate and take the election as an example. 24 years and younger, the entire country is blue.

Film always has to be the future. It can't look back. But that was unfortunately what we did in this

election. We took two steps back, and actually went all the way back to the 50s.

Angela: That group, the twenties and below, grew up diverse. They went to school where people came

from different countries. They went to schools where people spoke different languages. They grew up

178 with two mommies or two daddies. Those kids don't have the same kind of exposure to racism. My

son's friends, they have no concept of racism. We went to Denny's once, and this older white waitress

refused to serve us. It was a year and a half ago in Florida. It was so bad. It took him two hours to figure

out why, because he couldn't understand why she wouldn't serve a paying customer. Why would she

act like that? They aren't exposed to it as much. They might see it on television, but not in their daily

lives. That group is so diverse, they don't see it. That's why those kids are leaving the middle of the

country and moving to cities, because they want to be exposed to other people. Maybe not in the rural

parts, but even in the red states, the cities are usually pretty democratic. They are usually blue or

purple. You look at Alabama: Birmingham, Huntsville and Montgomery are blue, in a totally red state.

The metropolitan areas are like that because they are much more diverse and the kids are exposed to

diversity. What Hollywood should be doing is taking Moonlight's success, and Shonda's success and

Hidden Figure's success and seeing that people just want to be told good stories. They don't care who

it's about, whether it's black, white, Chinese or Hispanic. They should just be concerned about making

good stories. I grew up in Virginia and I didn't know about Catherine Johnson. I lived like twenty

minutes away from NASA, and I was a science nerd, but I had no clue about her. They should be telling

those stories! Because what it does is informing those that are not normally exposed to minorities on a

different perspective.

Hannah: That's the only reason to do something. To show people something from a different

perspective and teach them empathy. Yes, it's entertainment, and escapism for some, but let's be

honest, all of a sudden people start standing up for gay rights and HIV. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner

in the sixties. Sidney Portier and Spencer Tracy. The final monologue of him on film is basically saying

”it's okay for you guys to be together”. And that was the sixties. Those type of movies has had a huge

impact on our society. If you think about generations. There was our grandparents generation, who

lived through the depression. Then there's our parents generation who actually lived through

segregation and civil rights. Now it's up to us. And I remember when I came out of high school race

wasn't a big deal – it wasn't true for everyone, but that was the idea – and now you look at our kids. Of

course they're not gonna be exposed to racism. My mom went through segregation. Her school just

split in two, and that's not that long ago. That's why Obama and his buzzwords 'change' and 'hope'

really homed with people. That's why I really feel this is white supremacy's last stand. The older

generation wants Pleasantville back. My grandfather talked about how wonderful it was in the 60s and

179 had to hold my tongue, to keep from saying, yeah for you it was. What about every other race? It was

shitty for women, it was shitty for people of color, it was shitty for gay people.

Angela: Yeah, I'm glad it was great for you, but it was shitty for the rest of the world, so come on.

Melania: And white women apparently, who voted in this election.

Angela: I think competition scares people.

Hannah: A lot of people just does what they're told, and I think a lot of Republicans were doing it

simply because that's what they know. That's what their parents told them to do. So they need to find

their own voice and make their own decisions. I could have easily been that person. My whole family is

in politics and are Republican. So instead of going into politics as a Democrat I went into film, and I feel

that film are more powerful than politics. Sorry guys.

Angela: No no, I agree with you. I think it's the idea that the tables are set for everyone, and that's

scary. We on the other side, who just want to sit at the table, we have to understand that a natural

human response to not having a guarantee that everything will go your way, is to be scared. Like, now

you have to work just as hard as the people on the other side of the table. They are taught that we're

not as smart as they are, we're not as creative as they are, we don't really deserve a place at the table.

So when you ask people to come out of their comfort zone of superiority it's hard. You can't hammer

them for feeling what they do, because part of it is indoctrination. You gotta forgive them for it. I

usually say that anyone over 50-ish, I sorta give them a free pass, because they were brought up in the

silver right. My mom is sixty and she grew up where they couldn't sit in the movie theatres, they had to

sit it the back. They had segregated water fountains and segregated schools, and I don't think they

immigrated until she was six or seven. [Tears up]

Hannah: [Also tearing up] It's unbelievable. I'm crying just thinking about it. Because it could have

been my family not allowing your family to do that. It's so fucked up.

Angela: And now we sit at the same table together.

Hannah: ...One generation later. We're living together.

Angela: It's hard. [Crying] My family went from segregation to education, making their own way, and

they never thought they would live to see a black president. Ever. And they got to see it. And then they

saw the country revolt in the instant. I ask them how it makes them feel. For them, they understand it.

They get it. Because they grew up in it. For me, I don't.

Hannah: It was shocking to all of us. This city was like in mourning. No one knew what to do. We were

180 just hysterically sobbing all of us, because we didn't know what to do. The sight of that on CNN, ”Trump

elected president”. We were just gobsmacked. This can not possibly be true. Then we immediately

started rallying. I went to the women's march in DC. In a way it started a revolution and that's the only

positive thing to come from all this. It's definitely a slap in the face in terms of... This country is very

sad and divided. We always say that this is the best country in the world, and after this election I don't

believe that any more. And it makes me really sad, because I'm proud to be an American, but I was

humiliated by that. All my friends who are from Europe... I was so embarrassed, I wanted to apologize. I

wanted to apologize to all my friends who had parents who had to go through all this shit. I feel like we

let them all down. Our vote is not gonna count anyway, because we're in California, and we're always

blue, but my whole family back home voted for Trump. All of them. Except my mother, my grandmother

and me.

When they vote for Trump, do they think about you being married to a woman?

Hannah: No. Because they always say, it's all about economic policies. They only think about their

wallet.

Melania: The film industry is like that. People make content in their own interest and in their own

world view.

Hannah: The people who voted for Trump only think with their wallets, and they are the people who

are gonna get screwed the most now. He's not gonna bring coal mining back to Kentucky. No! He can

get rid of the EPA as much as he want. Those poor people are the ones who are get the most fucked.

And Hollywood also just thinks with their pocketbooks. Film comes out with a diverse cast, and women

make more money, so it's all bullshit. It's just a facade.

Melania: I don't know if you've seen this, the diversity in the Hollywood report?

Yes.

Angela: I just think that is why it's so important to tell stories like Moonlight.

Hannah: Yeah, my half-sister felt that the Oscars were so white, and she kind of made excuses for it,

and talked about the diversity in the population and all that, and I didn't really say anything because

she's old, like 65. I brought over “Moonlight” and I said it was nominated for best picture, and she

said,“Oh, is that because it's all black”? Then we watched it, in tears. She still talks about it every time I

see her. It was her favorite movie of the year. She also lived through segregation, she was born in 1950.

Her mind was completely changed. It really shut her down. So films like that do make a difference.

181 People thought that protesting that the Oscars were so white was stupid, but it worked. People can say

the same about the women's march, but it worked. In film especially I believe that once it's on the

table, changes can be made, and it will be a progression.

Angela: We just have to, once again, break out people from the idea that, “Oh, it's a black movie, or “it's

a white movie”. It's a movie about people having an experience, and they just happen to be black, white

or gay. And the filmmakers have to tell people that. I remember Spike Lee's black film festival 2013 or

something. He said to the filmmakers in the audience: We have a responsibility to educate the public

on what it is to be a black person, and not a black person being a black person, but a black person

living the human condition, and who just happens to be black. He was telling how he stopped making

movies, that emphasized the bad things, and instead made movies, like Moonlight, that just tells a

story. In that way we might be able to break out people. And the people below 24, they get it. They're

fine. It's the people who are between 25 and 50, those are the people we have to get them to see

everyone. We have to make them see. We don't control our skin color or eye color - well, some people

do [Laughs] - outside of that we should just tell a story, and more stories like the one with Hannah's

half-sister will come. That's what film and TV can do. Shonda Rhimes did that with a strong female

lawyer who was black, and people loved that story, not because she was black, but because it was a

good story and she was a strong woman. The industry should work towards that, just telling good

stories, and Moonlight and Get Out does that. I have not seen Get Out, I will admit that on tape, but I

heard that it has a message, but it does it so subtly that you enjoy watching the movie. You don't even

realize you've been schooled. We should subliminally tell people that diversity is fine. Just because

people don't look like you, doesn't mean they're ghetto or criminals or whatever. Just because they

don't look like you doesn't mean they should be excluded from your circle.

Hannah: They always say that people are homophobic until they have a gay friend. I think it's really

important for kids. I remember growing up watching the Disney movies, and I always thought, well am

I the prince? Because I'm definitely not the princess, ‘cause I don't wear dresses and don't wait for a

guy come kiss me. Then I saw Fried Green Tomatoes and saw the character Idgie, and I thought, that's

me. I don't ever brush my hair, and I like being outdoors. It is important that kids see these characters

because they do need that. I can't imagine being an african american girl growing up when your mom

did and watching Tv and film, like, where the fuck am I?

Angela: They had Julia, she was a nurse working in an all white environment, the one with Diane

182 Carroll. And then... For us, our generation we had the Cosby Show, different world, 227, the Jeffersons.

Hannah: Yeah, and look at that, I had Cheers, you know? Because I was just watching different shit.

Angela: We watched the same shows, I also watched Cheers. But we had true professionals. We had a

preacher, we had a doctor... I will be honest with you. The reason I went to HBCU? Film in college. I

wanted to be like in Different World. Cosby showed me that I can be a lawyer, because Felicia Rashad is

a lawyer. I thought I could be that, because she was that. That's our job. Showing diversity and showing

little kids that they can grow up to be someone. Even when you look at the Jefferson's. You have an

interracial couple, one had been married before and had a black son. It's exposure! It makes things

mainstream, because through basic conclusion, we can do that. I'm optimistic. God forbid it, but if our

entire parent's generation died off, that would be better. I really have a strong belief that it will be

better. I'm angry right now.

Melania: ...And sad

Angela: It's disappointing considering how far we came, but I get that last gasp. Because that's what it

was. And what's so ironic about is that the people who took the last gasp are the ones who are gonna

get screwed the most. Minorities were like, we could probably make the same under Hillary as under

Obama, and Obama was pretty much as good as it gets. Now with Trump, those people on the other

side who thought they were doing better, well, you're about to learn.

Hannah: I was thinking about inherent racism in this country, and in the south where I grew up. My

grandmother's favorite story she would always tell about me was that my grandfather was driving and

me. This was before we wore seatbelts, and I was about five years old. I just shouted out ”I have a

boyfriend”, and my grandmother said, ”you do”, and I said ”yeah, he's black”. Then she said she could

feel my little eyes looking at her and her grandfather, and I said ”is that gonna be a problem?”. At five

years old I already knew what racism was. That my family wouldn't like it if I dated a black boy, who

ironically ended up being gay. You know he wanted to play with my barbies, and I wanted to play with

his race cars.

That should not happen. At five years we should not know anything about that, and that's how

inherent it is in the south. Her nieces and nephew were raised in New York. Her niece came up to me

out of nowhere and said, some people have a mom and dad, and some people have to daddies or two

mommies. And I thought, wow, the world is gonna get better. Because inclusion and diversity makes

the world a better place. That was why the election was such a slap in the face.

183 Melania: To go back to the actual topic of your thesis... TV is further ahead than film. I don't know if it's

just the tide turning or what it is. I would argue, like we have in this conversation, that you cannot

distinguish political context from the cultural context of TV and film. You can make a direct correlation

between the racism in our society and in TV and film. I saw that documentary, he's like 98 years old

still alive, and it's a retrospective on his careeer, and I love it. One of the jokes they make in the movie,

which isn't very funny is that he did mod and the jeffersons and good times and all in the family, and

sadly those shows are still cutting edge, sadly we still haven't addressed the issues the way he did. I

don't think we progressed at all since the 70s. Everytime angry white men make their voices heard it

seems to be reflected in what we watch.

Hannah: It was interesting at the women's march, because there were older women holding signs

saying 'I can't believe I'm still protesting this'. They were part of the women's movement in the 70s and

after that they said, okay, let's go back to the kitchens.

Angela: It's the same with the civil rights movement. You get to a point where you seem to have

normalized equality, and you relax. I think that's what happened to the women's movement. They got

to a point where they started to get more jobs, there was still sexual harassment, but women were

becoming CEOs of Fortune 50 corporations and 'oh, the glass ceiling has been broken' and you feel

back, not realizing that you have to keep fighting until you've changed all these people's minds. I think

it's the same with film and TV. Think about Jordan and Get Out. Was it because they didn't have good

movies before that no black people had made over 100 million dollars? No! It was political. The people

in the middle did not accept misogyny and racism, they say we're just a bunch of complainers.

Hannah: They call us snowflakes, because we melt

Angela: Yeah, they're like,”You're just complaining and blah blah blah”, and women felt the same way

too. But what happened with the election was that the people in the middle - because they live in their

towns and everyone is nice and good girl scouts and people mow their lawn together – say that we're

just a bunch of city-folk-complainers. Now it's like, they understand. It exists and it's rampant. There's

an election in Georgia, and that's going to be the first test as to whether this movement is sustainable,

because those are the people who voted for Trump, and if the Democrats can win even one seat – even

if they lose the election – that will be the epitome of the far right movement, and proof that they are

dying. That's why film and television is gonna be even more important, to keep hammering the point,

diversifying their films, making more people heard, so it breaks the monotony. Because people live in

184 huge blocks. There are people who still have never seen a black person.

Hannah: There was a school in Georgia that had segregated prom until like five years ago.

Angela: I was driving to LA, and we drove through Oklahoma and went to a Walmart, and it was like we

were creatures from another planet. I don't look like the black people they see on TV and movies, I

don't talk like them, I'm not obnoxious and loud, but that's the stereotype they've been fed. Even

though it was a little creepy, the worst part about it was that a guy saw us and he started driving

around the parking lot with a confederate flag flying from his car. That's when my mom said, okay

we're getting out of here. But the hilarious part was that we drove up to McDonald's because no matter

where I am I have my McDonald's sweet tooth. I placed my order, and drove up to the window, and the

girl was completely baffled. She didn't know what to say or do. I don't know if she's never seen a black

person before or I didn't speak like she expected. When I ordered they thought I was white, so when I

drove up to pick up the food and I was black, and I drive a Mercedes, so I don't fit any of the

stereotypes. It was hilarious. We talked about the next two hours, and it was great, because I showed

her something else. She doesn't watch any of the shows where normal black people talk english

correctly – it's not the King's English, because we're not from England – but we speak american english

and we do it properly. We need to normalise normalcy. What is happening here in Cali happens all over

the country but people don't see it. Clearly that town did not have many black people, I could tell. But it

was crazy because they were only fifteen minutes away from a military base. I talked to another black

person there, who's from Oklahoma, and they were like, yeah, we don't go off the base. That's how

scary it still is there.

Hannah: Another thing you might want to look at is that women are considered a minority in film,

which is hilarious because we're 51% of the population.

Melania: How is that still a thing?

Hannah: Another thing I find interesting is female heads of production. I want to be anonymous for

this. I don't want to mention any names but they don't help each other. Recently Kathleen Kennedy was

asked why it wasn't a woman directing the new star wars movie, if it could be a female protagonist.

And she said, there aren't any women with enough experience, which is bullshit. She was the same one

who hired Colin Trevorrow to do Jurassic World, although he hadn't made many movies, and it wasn't

very good. We need to help each other. And the thing about successful women in the movie business is

that they don't want to give up their spot. It seems they think there's only a finite number of spots at

185 the top and that's bullshit.

Melania: I don't know if it's the same with black women?

Angela: We keep bringing up Shonda, because she's such a trailblazer. From her taking Wiola and Kerry

Washington, and now they have their own production deals with ABC, and bring more voices to the

table. I'm not saying that there aren't other women doing that, but she is doing it and spreading it, and

then others will bring more black females to the table. There's over 400 scripted TV shows at any point

of time in the year. There are so many networks and internet, and I know everybody would love

network money, but that's not the only place where your voice can be heard. And Moonlight has proved

that you don't need a big studio to make a lot of money. You just need to tell a good story!

Hannah: Regarding indie-film finance: There's this thing that was just created called the 51 Fond and

it's for women to filmmakers and finance gurus. They said, we're gonna go out and find funding for

independent films and do a slight investment. Just for female directors. A year later they write an e-

mail saying they had no idea how difficult it was for women to get funding. It's nearly impossible. If you

go above like the 500,000 dollar budgets, just look at how few women there are. Men just don't wanna

give women money, they don’t want to trust their budgets. It's just the simple and sad truth. We've

been financing for a film for about two years, and it’s really fucking hard. In addition to there not being

enough voices it's also a matter of there not being enough funding and trust.

Melania: Look at Colin Trevorrow. He did one movie in 2001 I think that went to Sundance and then

the next movie he directs is Jurassic World. Un-fucking-believable. That would never happen to a

woman.

Hannah: It's both in front and behind. One example: Dee Reeze I think is one of the most talented

directors in the business right now. She did a short for Sundance called Bria and then a feature. Unlike

Ryan who then got a massive franchise film she got to do a TV movie on HBO. Now she just made

another movie and Netflix bought it for 20 million dollars. But it took her twice as long, and she's as

good as it gets. The struggle is real, man.

186

Appendix 4: Ethnographic Observational Notes

Los Angeles, February 20th

The 2017 Oscar ceremony takes place during my time in Los Angeles, and offers a relevant

topic of discussion for both interviews and everyday life. Both interviewees and people I meet

outside of the interview situations talk about the Oscars, and perhaps more noticeably they

talk about the films “La La Land” and “Moonlight” as oppositional Oscar contenders. “La La

Land” appears to represent whiteness, lighthearted feel-good movies and classical Hollywood

style to most people, while “Moonlight” is believed to be a more serious and artistic cinematic

work on real life issues regarding blackness and homosexuality. Most people I meet seem to be

rooting for “Moonlight” to win ‘Best Picture’ over “La La Land”.

Los Angeles, February 17th

Billboards and TV commercials for “Ghost in the Shell” with Scarlett Johansson take up a lot of

space, both in public as I move through the city, but also in private, as I turn on the TV in my

hotel room at night. To my surprise, most other TV commercials are quite diverse racially. I

especially take note of the many interracial couples and families that are depicted without any

specific racial stereotypes, but just as normal couples or families that happen to be made up of

different ethnicities.

Los Angeles, February 28th

The Oscar ceremony took place last night. “La La Land” was announced as ‘Best Picture’ by

mistake in a rather clumsy fashion, but as the confusion was cleared up the crew behind

“Moonlight” went on stage to receive their award. People I meet are appalled by the mistake

during the show, but are generally happy to see “Moonlight” win. I wonder if they think it was

a better movie overall, or if they simply thought it was nice to see the award go to a film that

187 portrays people of color, and to honor a director of color as well.

Los Angeles, March 3rd

The recent election of Donald Trump as president of the United States naturally and

spontaneously occur in many interviews and daily conversations, and I have yet to hear

someone applaud him or his presidency. The people I have met across California seem to have

a negative attitude towards the current political climate and Trump; his person, views or

statements are often ridiculed, and people I’ve met tend to feel embarrassed, angry or sad that

he is president.

188