Interview with Elinor Lawrence By Charity Lawrence

Elinor Lawrence was born in Huntington Park, California in 1930. Although a lot of women went to the hospital to have their children, Elinor was born at home because her mother was always afraid if she went to the hospital, that they might mix her child up with someone else. So, she just decided she would never go to the hospital to have children. Her mother did have a midwife, who came in and spent a couple of days with her. As for other siblings in the house, she has two older brothers, but there is about nine years difference in the oldest one and Elinor, so the oldest was really a lot of help to her mother. She was only three years old from birth to the time they left California, so she doesn/t remember the house or anything else about California. They moved from California to Salt Lake, and the house they moved to was a red brick home, that had a big full porch. The house was cozy and comfortable. Elinor remembers that the stove didn't sit down on the floor like they do now. It had 4 legs and she could crawl up underneath the stove while her mother was cooking, and watch her legs move back and forth. Her family had a big flour bin In the kitchen that was part of the cupboard. Her mother always kept a full case of oranges In there, and would open up the bin and slice her an orange. That's when Elinor would crawl up underneath the stove and watch her mother cook while eating her orange. She had her own bedroom in the house. Since she had two older brothers, her two brothers stayed in one room and she stayed by herself. Ellnor/s family moved from that home on State Street when her mother and dad bought about 3 acres in the southeast section of Salt Lake. While her dad was building a home, they lived in 2 house trailors put together. Everyone pitched in and did everything that they had to do. They planted a garden, and worked in it from sun up until sun down during the summertime, because the land was underdeveloped. It had old barns on it and great big rows and rows of rasberry bushes and currents, which are bush type plants. When the family wasn/t trying to make a garden, they were out trying to clear the land, so that it would look like the rest of the neighborhood that they had moved into. Elinor/s chores during that period of time, until the family moved into their new home, was just everyday get up, and really try to take care of oneself, and help the family as much as one could on anything that had to be done. Her mother and father were typically the husband and wife couple. He went off to work everyday and she stayed at home and took care of the three children and their needs. Her mother got the children ready for school, and was there when they came home. Her mother did not work, because her father and mother elected that she stay home and be the mother. When Elinor was about 15 years of age, her mother suddenly made the announcement that she thought she/d go out and get a job. Elinor was devestated, and thought her whole world was going to come to an end, because her mother was always there when the children needed her. As Elinor looks at it now, she knows that her thoughts were selfish at that time, but the children had never known her mother ln any other role. Her mother was a very social person, and had her outlets. She belonged to different clubs and loved to play bridge.

Sometimes ladles would come in and they would have lunchens. Ellnor~s mother wasn~t totally 100% family, but family was one of the more important things in her life.

On the subJect of schooling, Elinor had a terrific time in school, especially kindergarten. Going to kindergarten was one of the first exposures of interacting socially with other kids Elinor~s age, and more than just one kid, a neighbor kid that would come over on a Saturday. Now Elinor had a chance to see her friends and classmates every day. It was really terrific for her. She couldn~t believe that they were in one group and we got to do things that were fun. They even got to go swimming. The grade school that Elinor attended in kindergarten had an outdoor swimming pool. Since she was just a little kid coming in from a little farm, she couldn~t believe everything that she got to do. This was before television, so mostly, the family would listen to the radio, and people coming to their home.

She really didn~t have much of an exposure getting out and going into the big city to go shopping, so kindergarten was really one of her first social aspects. Elinor also really enjoyed grade school, because then they started to teach about music. One of the things she remembers most of all was being tested to be able to find out if she was tone deaf. They would hit an instrument and then ask her to hum to try and match that tone so they could tell if she could get on key. In terms of reading, her first reading experience was Dick and Jane and Spot. She was taught through that system and got the biggest kick out of the reading, and the stories. In grade school they also had a play store. They would try to save cans from home that stilI had the labels on so they could take them to the school. They would set the cans up on the shelves and show the items, and then everyone would take turns shopping. The class even had play money that they worked on during school, so that they could al 1 learn how to exchange money when they got into the store. Junior High was the same. Basically, she throughly enjoyed school all the way through. She was very bashful! in school, though, and very shy. When she looks back now, she wishes she had been a little more assertive and had joined more things. She got along well with different groups that she socialized with, but was to serious. If she had to do it over again, she wouldn/t have taken school as serious as she did. She also did a lot of reading, and her reading jumped from one subject to the next. Her favorite story is called The Little White Indian Boy, and it/s a book that her mother and dad had. It told the story of a little white boy that was captured by the indians, and his life living with them. At the very beginning when he rode with them, he couldn/t ride bareback, and they put him on a horse with a real rough rawhide saddle, which rubbed him raw. The squaws took pity on him, and found, in one of the areas where they stopped, a mineral spring, and they made him Jump into that to try to heal his skin. The story Just went on and on. She really enjoyed that as a kid. During high school is when the school system talked to the kids about sex education. In Elinor/s gym class, there were so many days that were actually P.E., something physical, and then there were approxlmatly two days that were Just classroom study. In the classroom study, the teachers had alI the students draw the sex organs of the male and female in workbooks. Kids talk among themselves, but this was the first time anyone actually dld anything like this. Elinor said that she had never seen such a group of tetering and laughing high school girls that were embarassed and blushing. To top it off, they had to carry the drawings around In their workbooks. She said she can remember being absolutely horrified that someone was going to grab It and see what she had drawn. During that same period of time they talked about the menstural cycle and had a film that showed the mother and the daughter talking about the girl starting her period . There was also another one about social diseases. Those were the only things Elinor can remember out of the class, yet they hit every phase of sex education. It wasn/t as excepted as a subJect as It !snow, but Elinor thinks sex education should be taught in schools now as early as possible. Dating was something Elinor remembers very well. She started dating around age 16, but she was very bashful!. She can remember one Instance where a boy was flirting with her

1:30. So, the kids had about an hour and a half In between there. Her parents would say, "What time was It when you got in" and the kids could say 12:30, or 1:00 and yet it was 1:30. None of the kids ever told them. During high school Elinor remembers what styles were "in" and which were "out." The "in girls" always wore Jansen sweaters, and straight skirts; no pleats, maybe a slit on the side, in the front, or in the back. Hairstyles were shoulder length. Everyone had to wear Joyce shoes, which were round toed and laced up the front. The big fad during this time was to buy a pair of boys' oxfords, preferably brown, that laced. Girls would wear boys' shoes. Pants, outside pants were a thing of the past. The students also went through the Phaee of the bal lerlna skirt. The bal lerlna eklrt was about 3 Inches to 6 inches off the floor and ful 1. Prejudice was not an item that Elinor had to worry about. The area she lived in when she was growing up, was Salt Lake City, Utah. Really a merman community. During Elinor/s school, she does not remember, at least through grade school or Junior high, ever, being exposed to a black person, or hispanic. Japanese, yes. In grade school, one of her best friends, Mary Omeria, was of Japanese culture . Elinor used to go over and play at her house, but they could only play outside. Mary / s parents would never let Elinor inside the house. It was likely their surroundings were very humble, and they were embarrassed about it. Japanese people are very proud people. When World War II broke out, Mary Omeria and her mother and father were moved away from the neighborhood and placed into camps. They were forced to go to one of those camps, and Elinor lost track of Mary. Mary Omeria was the only person of a different nationality that Elinor was ever exposed to. It wasn / t until high school that Elinor ever went to school with a black person. She never had any classes with him, and does not remember any stories about preJudice against him. AI I she remembers is how he was admired in some of the sports that he participated in and he was wei 1 liked. Right out of high school, Elinor got a Job at a wholesale hardware business, and learned a lot of basic office skills. She was self taught on a machine cal led a comtometer which, to Elinor, was the beginning of computers. She worked in the invoicing department, and it was while she was there that she corresponded with an uncle in Fairbanks, Alaska. She had asked him if there were any Jobs in Fairbanks, and her uncle told her to come to Alaska. So, she did.

She had $50 in her pocket and a one-way plane ticket, and went to Fairbanks, Alaska.

She got a Job in the purchasing and contracting office of Lad Air Force Base, which was Just outside Fairbanks, Alaska. At that time one could walk out the gate of Lad Air Force Base and about two miles down the road was the beginning of Fairbanks. She stayed up there a little bit over a year, and had a delightful time. The only things that she is really sorry about, is that she didn/t go to the Col lege of Fairbanks, and she never did get to Mount McKinley. Alaska was still a territory when Elinor was there in 1952. She didn/t get a drivers license while living in Salt Lake, but she did drive. In those days, they never really checked to see if people had licenses, it Just didn/t seem important. There was traffic, but it wasn/t like what we have today. Wel 1, when Elinor got to Fairbanks, she went and got a driver/s liscense, which she sti 11 has. It/s pink and it/sa Territory of Alaska llscense. In 1952, all a person had to do was walk up, give them $0.50, write their name and give their birth date and address. They didn/t take an examine or drive a car, and they didn/t even ask if you knew how to drive. That was her very first liscese. During the winter, in Alaska, it gets dusk all the time, never a bright, light, sun-shinny day. Elinor had a bad cold, and asked to leave work early. She fell asleep, because she was not feeling good, and when she woke up, her clock said 6:00. She looked outside, and couldn/t tel 1 what time of day lt was. She didn/t know whether she had fallen asleep and slept until 6:00 the following morning, or whether lt was Just 6:00 that night. She had to cal I someone on the

phone, and ask the stupid question "can you tel I me what day it is?" That happened to a lot of people. Sometimes, one couldn/t tel 1 what time it was.

While Elinor was in Fairbanks, her company had her run as the Miss NCO, Non-Commissioned Officer, and she won. The company also had her enter the Miss Alaska contest, after she won the Miss NCO contest, and the girl that won the contest was an Alaskan and very beautiful. The winner of that contest then went on to the Miss USA contest. She said it would have been fun to be able to follow the contest through, but she had a wonderful time in Fairbanks. She got to meet a Jot of people, and that/s when she really started to develop a personality of communicating and talking to people. She found out that if she started talking, that she could find out a Jot of interesting things about people. She enJoyed that part, growing up and understanding more. She got to be in a parade, and got an Alaskan Parka as one of her prizes as runner up in the contest. Elinor was in Fairanks a little over a year, and got engaged. When she realized that she wasn/t making the right choice, she packed up her bags and said goodbye to everyone and went home to Salt Lake. When Elinor got to Salt Lake, she went to work at a radio and television station called KDYL T.V. It was owned by Time Inc., who put out "Time" magazine, and "Sports Illustrated". She opened up a brand new career for herself when she got in with radio and television personalities. Therein happened one of her most embarrassing moments in her life. She had barely started as a secretary, and one of the directors went rushing In one day and said uoulck, the model that r had didn't show up, I need you. Into the studio, quick.u She had never been exposed to radio and television, al 1 she was doing was typing and being a personal secretary to one of the heads-to-be there. She went rushing into the studio, and the director sat her down at a table. It was a live television commercial. All she had to do was hold papers in her hand, it was a desk accessory they were selling, and push the clamp down and slip the papers into this thing that opened up like a jaw. This accessory would keep the papers straight on your desk. When the director said, "Actionu and the red lights went on the television camera, Elinor started shaking. She couldn't hold the papers still enough to get them into this thing that she was holding down. All the while through it, this director, who turned out later to be a real good friend of Elinors, kept saying, "Okay, Ellie, now calm down.u She was going 1 ive, and people sitting at home were probably falling off their chairs because this poor girl was absolutely spastic she was so frightened. She never did get the papers in that, and the director finally just said "cut". They had a booth announcer who was ad-Jibbing, and he was falling off his chair he was laughing so hard. But, anyway, she lived through it. The director cal led on her many other times to sub in when people needed help. It was while she was there that she got engaged to a radio and television personality and while she was engaged to him she met her husband. So, she became disengaged, and became engaged to Joe. Joseph Lawrence was born in Tooele, Utah, lived in Heber, and then moved to Salt Lake. Joe and Elinor's brother were business partners when she first met him. She was engaged to someone else at the time, and Joe knew it. Well, the person she was engaged to lived · up in the northwest, and so absense away from one another left its toll. Elinor/s brother and sister-in-law asked her if she would go on a boating trip to Lake Meade with them, and she accepted. She was getting ready to start a new job, and thought she should go on a little trip before starting to work. They had Invited Joe to go along too. They went down to Lake Meade, Joe had the boat, and then they went on to Las Vegas and saw a couple of horse shows. Everyone had a good time boating, and they tented and then Joe and Elinor started dating. Joe and Elinor dated about two years, before they got married. At this time, Elinor was 28. She was an "old maid." She wasn/t sure she even wanted to get married then. They eloped and went to Las Vegas and got married. When they eloped, Elinor/smother and father saw her packing a suitcase, and they said "Where are you going", and

she said "Joe and I have decided to get married." She still doesn/t know how everyone pulled it all together, but Joe and Elinor were traveling down the highway and the family was behind them, including her brother, Chet, and his wife. Her mother and dad and brother and sister-in-law were in the next car behind Joe and Elinor, and they all traveled down and got to see the two of them married. Joe and Elinor have three children; young Joe, Bart, and Steve. Three boys, and three daughter-in-laws. Elinor and Joe also have four

grandchildren by the oldest son, and two grandchildren from the middle son. The youngest son, Steve, and his wife don/t have any children yet. When raising the children, Joe and Elinor were very strict in terms of going out and carousing around. Both Joe and Elinor worked, so, when the two older boys came home from school, they could play the music as loud as they wanted to, when they were not there. The family didn~t have close neighbors, because they had almost an acre of land, so the boys could turn the volume up on the music as loud as they wanted it. Once Joe and Elinor got home the boys were asked to keep the volume down. They wouldn~t let them cruse the streets either. Elinor remembers one time, young Joe stamping his foot and saying his mom and dad were ruining him socially, that they wouldn~t let him go out In the car with a couple of his friends that went up and down

State Street In Salt Lake. She doesn~t ever regret that. They still said no, that he couldn~t do it, and there were no if~s, and~s, or but~s about it. He lived through it, and Elinor and Joe lived through it. She felt really guilty as a parent because of the descision she had to make, but later she still, if she had to do over again, wouldn~t let her kid out in the car cruslng around town. No drinking aloud either. They tried to instill in their children to remember what their last name was, was Lawrence. As a parent, they wouldn~t do anything to embarass the children, and the parents dldn~t expect the children to embarass them. That~s the kind of crito they used with their children while they were growing up. Discipline has changed drastically from when even El !nor was a child. Elinor agrees in that she thinks parents are so wound up in their own lives that they forget that they are a family. She thinks parents have to do more things with their children. Now a days, she thinks parents feel that they~re due their dues, that they have their own life. She feels that If they ' re not willing to sacrafice. then not to bring children into it.

Elinor and Joe came to Casper, Wyoming in 1972. One of her first recollections is that she thought it was the most barren looking place In all the world. She was used to Utah and the Wasatch Range and the beautiful mountains. Wyoming grows on a person though. She now sees so much beauty, because, originally, when she moved up here, she was really biased, and couldn' t see it. Slowly, it just grows on a person. The Lawrence family moved to Casper before it really hit into a boom. Elinor can remember, the first spring that they were here, the spring of 1973, that she wasn't In any hurry to buy Easter stuff, because she had seen It over in the stores. So, she waited until the last minute. There was nothing. She went from store to store panicing. The shelves were stripped. There was no Easter candy of

any kind. That was her first big lesson, was that she was in a very much small town, and they don't overstock. If you see something you better get It the first time you see it, otherwise you ' re not going to get it. Of course, the boom followed after that and there was ample of everything and things changed drasticly in Casper. She has seen a lot of changes, a lot of cultural improvements; the new library, the events center, the growth up at Casper Col lege, the increase in the population and the type of housing that is available, the retail merchants, the mal I, and the east end of Casper, how it developed. She has seen the little town grow into what it is now, and probably in a lot of people's eyes it ' s stil 1 a little town, but it's a wonderful town. Some places are perfect for raising children, and others are not so perfect. Steve, the youngest one, was about 8 years old when the family moved to Wyoming. Elinor had a good chance to compare education with the Utah schools to the Wyoming schools and Steve received a better education than his two brothers. She Is sorry that they didn/t move to Wyoming earlier in their life, so that the other boy/s could have been exposed to the same things that Steve was exposed to. Steve had a Jot more opportunity. When remembering big issues, Elinor remembers one of the big issues, which she actually helped lobby. She was working with a radio and television station, and it may not seem like a big issue, but it was the beginning of daylight savings time. When they first brought that Into public attention and tried to get it changed, the opposition was enormous. The groups that were opposed were saying that because of daylight savings time, their children would be getting home from the drive in movie much later than normal. In those days, the drive In theaters were really a big thing. It was an interesting issue. She also remembers the freedom walk for the blacks. One of the issues she remembers quite well is when everyone was waiting for them to land on the moon for the first time. Joe and her were going out hunting, they had left Salt Lake, they had stopped to have a cup of coffee, and sat just spellbound watching the television in this little cafe. There are so many things that have happened in her lifetime, that it is hard to recal 1 certain specifics. According to Elinor, two of the greatest things, which she wil 1 never forget, is the changing of Germany. She does remember when it was divided between east and west, and she remembers the Berlin Wall. She thought that was so devestatlng. People that ehe had known had relatives either on one side or the other, and had told her about what had been going on. To see that come down, and to see that be one again, is really a big thrll I for her. The second one is what/s going on right at this particular time in Russia. With all the provinces, that/s exciting for Elinor. She can/t believe that ln her lifetime that she would ever see, what is happening now over there. She just hopes and prays that they can work it out so that they can alI be a separate little state, and that they will get along. She heard over the news the day of this interview that this one little area that was selling all their produce to maybe two or three different areas decided not to sel I It. Elinor says that lt/s going to take a lot of hardship and heatbreak in doing without for a lot of those people. In remembering natural disasters. she remembered Mt. St. Helens. The Lawrence family went to Mt. St. Helens first hand right after that happened. The reason they went was mainly because their youngest son, Steve was studying to be a geologist and had extreme desire to see the area. So, the~ vacationed up there and hired a he! !copter. The three of them, with the pilot, flew into the core, to the center, inside of Mt. St. Helens after the first Irruption, when it was building it 1 s new core. They hovered 12 inches, 2 foot off the floor, and, of course, if the pilot would have landed, they would have loved to step a foot out, but he couldn 1 t get clearence for them to do that. To be flying over that, looking at it, the surrounding mountains, and the timber, and it looked like someone had taken toothpicks and thrown them all out. It was amazing what Elinor saw and what she experienced there. Other disasters first hand was the earthquake In Alaska that caused so much devestation out at Fairbanks. Elinor's uncle was still living there at that time, and had a cabin about 12 miles out of Fairbanks. He could only drive part way into the area, and he wanted to check and see how the cabin was, so, he hiked in the rest of the way. Wolves had banded together and he had a very close narrow

escape. He didn't have a rifle with him, or anything to protect him at that time, but he did make it to the cabin, and it had received some damage. He fortunatly had a gun there, and made it back out safely, but it was a very harrowing experience. The other disasters, more recently, is the earthquakes that they had in California. There's been an awful lot throughout her life span, but it's a lot easier to think about the things more recently. Elinor has mixed emotions about a women president. She really doesn't think it would be to the U.S.'s advantage. She looks at

Margret Thatcher in England, and what she has done, but it stil 1 doesn't seen right. As a women, she would be very proud to have another women president. As a women also, she knows women's weaknesses and recognizes how a women can really be sometimes. Men don't have the nature, or the temperment like women have. She feels a little more secure with a male president. Elinor came from an era characterized predominatly by a father/husband stigma. She has grown up that way, and feels a little more secure that a man is president, whether they're doing it right or wrong. She says that women or the U.S. may have to do a lot more growing up before she would vote for one. Although ehe would not vote for a women president, she thinks, only due to circumstances, it is okay for a man staying home and the women going to work. If the husband can/t find a Job, and he elects that he wants to be the house-husband, and the women is professional or not, if she can find the work, it/s best that a family have an income into the home. She wouldn/t like to see it continue that way. She doesn/t like to see role models changed that way either. She still thinks that, looking back on al 1 literature, children/s literature particularly, they place the father as the head of the house. Cartoons are the same way, the father is the head of the house. If people start changing the roles then people are saying one thing, look at it this way, yet lt/s okay to do it the other way. She says, if that/s the case then let the husband also have the children. Elinor grew up when Franklin D. Rooselvelt was real Jy a dominant person. He was president during some of the more impressionable periods for her. He was her World War II president, he seemed to make all the right decisions, and he had generals. She was really impressed with him. She found out later, through things that have come out in history, that maybe as a person he wasn/t as great as he should have been. He did no wrong. But, as Elinor said, it/s like John F. Kennedy, people get one perspective of him, and then after he/s been killed, they turn around and tel 1 you all these things. The thing with the television has to be Elinor/s most embarasslng moment. That, to her, not being able to hold her hand still, was one of the worst. The worst thing in her life was loosing her parents. She always felt so secure with them. Her parents never did anything to hurt her, she doesn/t ever even remember severe discipline from them, a 1 though a 11 they had to do was look a certain way and she knew what was right and what was wrong and what the limitations were. When they passed away, they left her, and she knew that had to happen, but that was the biggest hurt. They passed away within six months of each other, and she wasn"t there. Elinor has got some real good memories, but the happiest day of her life was when she had Steve. Having her own child, and giving birth to her child, was the greatest adventure she ever had in her life. When one stops and thinks about what has been done, that is something else. She said that the pain one goes through, a person thinks 11 I don"t know how I can live through it and how can I stand

it, 11 but everyone does, and it becomes secondary. Each day in the hospital, Elinor would be the first one up and she"d be in washing her hands, coming her hair, brushing her teeth, and getting her bed turned down, so she"d be ready by the time they"d bring the babies. The hospital would announce over the intercom 11 the babies are coming 11 and she would think 11 the babies are coming tra Ia Ia la. 11 She was so up and so excited. She couldn"t get enough of holding him. She could hardly walt to get him at home and she was the proudest mother anyone has ever seen. Elinor says, to turn around and give birth and have a child is wonderful. There are other nice things, and things that happened to her in her life, but that"s one thing that she did on her very own. She did it all by herself, with the help of Joe, but she means the actual having the baby. It seems like in her life there was always a lot of opportunity. One of the saddest parts in her life, she could go and do something about it if she wanted to now, Is she wishes she had recieved a college education. She probably would have been really dangerous If she had been educated, but she had a lot of opportunities. She has Just been really lucky. She has been in the right spot at the rlght time, and things have worked out well for her. Even now at her age, to turn around and be working ln real estate and having a real estate license now, who would have ever dreamed that? She certainly wouldn/t have, and yet she/shad people help her al 1 along the way. She looks back and says she has Just been very, very fortunate. She/s enJoyed everything she/s done. There are times when she/d put her feet down kind of solid and "no I don/t want to do this," and yet by persuasion she trled lt and then was happy once she did.

She remembers 16, 17 years of age, Just the thought of going into a store, 11ke a department store, and go shopping on her own, she was frightend to death. She was intimidated by people, and so, little by little, dolng the things she has done, she/s really had to bite the bullet and force herself into doing things. She used to speak at the Elks as an hour long speaker, and was a speaker at the Kiwanis club luncheons. Joe would drive her to Provo, Utah, and all the way down she would be near a frenzy. Just constantly, "I can/t do this, I Just don/t want to do it." Joe is the most patient man in the world. He/d hear her al 1 the way going down. She would go to get out of the car and she/d say "listen Joe, lets go. I don/t even want to show up." Elinor would go in, and inside .she was absolutely falling apart, but she did what she had to do and went in and made her speech. Then on the way back she/d have a ter~ible headache and she/d be so relieved that she/d had gotten it over and yet was p~oud of herself. She did this every time. She would be absolulety be unnerved, and yet it seems more and more in her life that she was pushed to this, were she had to get out and speak. And maybe that/s the reason, maybe that/s what she was supposed to be doing. Now ln her 60/s, she looks toward a whole new phase of her life that is going to be starting. She looks forward to what the next 10 years is going to bring, and it/s kind of exciting for her. She just hopes that her health stays as strong as it is now, so that she can really enJoy herself.