Do Not Forward, Address Non Profit Org. Correction Requested U.s. Postage Return Postage Guaranteed PAID Permit #278 Providence, RI

ARY OINT PUBLISHED BY THE KWAN UM SCHOOL

VOLUME SIX, NUMBER ONE 528 POUND ROAD, CUMBERLAND, RI 02864 (401 )658-1476 JUNE 1989

ONE PERSON'S ENERGY HELPS ALL PEOPLE

An lnterview on Family and Practice with Seung Sahn home and for Primary Point (PP): In many families every morning evening, just ten minutes. Then, can sit for now, both the husband and wife have to maybe you with the children for a work. They also have children and social awhile, joining you few minutes. Husband and wife should responsibilities. How can the parents also do one hundred and eight bows every make a living, raise a family and still together. the have time to practice? day, Altogether, practice should take one hour every day. Zen Master Seung Sahn (Dae Soen Sa PP: How old should the children be? Nim): If you have children and both parents are working, it can be very dif­ DSSN: At least seven years old. Doing ficult to practice, especially if you live some kind of "Tanjien" practicing (i.e. outside of a Zen Center. So, some kind of breathing in and breathing out from together action practicing with children is "hara" - the area just below the navel) is necessary. Simple exercises like breathe very important. Then, their consciousness in, breathe out; hands up, hands down, becomes very clear. When children are like in Tai Chi; make a circle with your growing up, they cannot control their feel­ Robert Genthner, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim arms and breathe deeply. Children like ings. They often have only "I want" doing these kinds of exercises with their mind- anger mind. If you do breathing parents. You can do this together action at Ninth Student Receives Inka Altered States of Consciousness GETTING A ZEN STICK by Lincoln Rhodes, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim* by Robert Genthner, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim*

me. You don't realize it but you're Mind. It's if have a Lincoln Rhodes, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim, given At a ceremony held at Providence Zen very confusing- you and ways of When Zen I'll a Zen but if holds a PhD. in Biochemistryfrom Ml.T. taught seeing things. Center this past December, Robert stick, give you stick, realize there are other of don't I'll in­ Hehas been instrumental in the formation you ways seeing Genthner, ofLexington, Kentucky, be­ you have one, take it away. It centers things, that is, as soon as there's not just our It our of many Zen and groups around came the ninth student to receive formal terrupts thinking. interrupts logi­ one, it a whole different ball the country, and has lived and taught at opens up teaching authorityfrom Zen Master cal analytic discursive thinking. What game. It is very to know that there does that mean? That's the of the Providence Zen Centerfor many helpful Seung Salin. Bob is a long-time student of beginning is more than one to view a way things. don't know. To an of years. He currently owns and manages Zen under several teachers and a practic­ give you example That's a somehow. You Pa Ow's was a construction and home renovation busi­ necessary step ing psychotherapist. He and his wife, mind (he brilliant Zen don't have to know what all the ness. This article is composed ofselec­ ways are, , started the Lexington Zen Center in master), a monk came to him and asked but do know there isn't one tions from talks given during you just way 1982. Bob and members of the Lexington him "what is the water of Pa Cho Moun­ to see. tain." was named after the 1983-85 at the New Haven Zen Center. have purchased a large piece of (He mountain.) And Pa Cho I was shocked because I had all land in that Doe Soen Sa Nim said, "Warm in the winter, was talking about using quite Kentucky cool in the summer." He had an incredib­ this as a scientist. I while has christened as a retreat it is Someonedrugs to open your consciousness. I training thought major site; I was it that the reason an ly clear, non-analytic, non-logical mind. think the evidence is overwhelming that doing you do it is rapidly becoming important gathering He saw the essential nature of to discover some ultimate truths about the the This talk ex­ things. most of this planet is in an altered state of place/or sangha. is universe and the are. I a talk at or consciousness already and our job is to way things So, cerptedfrom pzc after the In Zen talk, the stick is symbolic of went about to do that. 10 and find out what's it like to not be in an al­ trying Then, ceremony. Excerptsfrom the formal Dhar­ represents our true nature, our essential behold, I discovered that there are all ma Combat encounters that nature. all of us who have come here tered state of consciousness. I grew up traditionally And, these controversies about the ultimate 03- the ink or in common and my family wasn't too much different precede granting of a, teaching today have something with Pa can be on he's our than any other family, I had a rather set authority, found page 6. Cho, ancestor. We also have in way of seeing things that was given to (continued on page 11) issues of giving and taking, and of common this way seeking mind. Nobody is here accident. All of us are here Thegenerosity appear regularly in our by out of some some practice. I was reading recently in the Mu together question, and is our ancestor Mun Kwan. Case 44 is a case called Pa wonderment, this who is to if a r�I;���i'pi���%@Yp���l was saying us, you have Zen stick, if Cho's Zen Stick. Pa Cho Korean, i:;� you have essential nature, if you have true '11111 NATIVE TRADmON IN UNFOLDING SANGHA and he went from Korea to China travel­ I will a Zen I will KOREAN ZEN ing around and then he met his teacher nature, give you stick, By Bodhin Kjolhede Sensei...... 9 a If II:!! il�1 and later became a great Zen Master in give you good beating. Whap! you don't have true if have China. The case goes like this: "If you nature, you empti­ is or have a Zen stick, I will give you a Zen ness, everything blankness, , I'll take it from So, it's not rest­ I stick. If you don't have a Zen stick, I will away you. I E���;�:�;�:::;:;�:::::� on Not not- H;:;7i;;;:�;2��::ow either/or. take it away." Some of you who came for ing having, having. .... 12 Not in some interviews this morning worked on some resting conceptual perspec­ ��:::d�:' tive. Life isn't that Our life is I ::=a':RLD .;:;:n�s;��;:���� I kong-ans that are like this. The wonderful simply way. fi r INFORMATION.•••.....•.••••.••.•••••.•.14 % Our Readers Respond.•••.•..•..•.•.•.•.•.••.8 W gift that Pa Cho gives us is Don't Know ���::::::::::::�;:;::::::::::::�:::::::::::::::::::::::::::�::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;:;:;:::;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:::;:;:;:::::;:;:::;:::::::::;:::::;:::;:::::::;:;:::::::::::;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:::;:;:;:;:::;:;:�:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::�::�::::*::::::::�:!�::::::ili�

* See page 12 for an explanation of this new title for Master Dharma Teachers June 1989 pRIMARY pOINT 11

Altered States of Consciousness such a romantic thing to do all these to find some way to not pay too much at­ true for me? Is something compelling me crazy things and try all these things. After tention to it, or they couldn't live there. to stop playing and to get serious? continuedfrom thefront page do of that, have such al­ you enough you That's an altered state of conscious­ Rhodes: You don't have too much choice starts tore of the and there are tered states of consciousness it hap­ way things are, ness; and it's necessary for survival. In a in the matter actually. Sorry. There is this with each other over their pening on its own without making an people fighting strange way this world is getting like that wonderful idea that floats around that I about what it and how effort at it. views, is, you fig­ with all the things that happen. Most of us think describes it in the best way. And ure it out. The further I looked at it, the I feel like I've spent many years require altered states of consciousness to that is, "Ignorance is bliss." Doesn't it more I discovered there's no standard by trying to get back to just being in the block most of it out, to go about our busi­ seem that things work that way? But, if which to it out; it's all different and that be not figure room, having OK, having ness. That's an interesting state of affairs! you lose some of that ignorance- then That was a real I views. eye opener! to have some spectacular colors or dream can't back. You can't wait a With all this going on, people ask if you go say thought there was some real absolute happening to keep me interested. something or other to find. Once in a while I get to go to New The same kind of thing happened to York City; you get on this train and walk "You can't say wait a I made me living with a whole other culture, at a out and you're in Penn Station and it's second, Korean for a while, out insane. It's difficult in that situa­ temple finding pretty a mistake I think I'll back to there were people that had a completely tion to have any clear consciousness or here, go different way of doing things. It seemed compassion because there's so much most I not attention." insane of the time, but did it long violence and mess- and some beautiful paying enough that I found out that it wasn't in­ things, too; it's all mixed up. I was walk- there is an "ultimate reality." You can try second, I made a mistake here, I think I'll sane, just very different. to it with words, but it's this in­ back to not attention. When we let in other express go paying credible need to logically make sense of possibilities, when we Question: I keep thinking I'll get to mid­ the mind that is impossible. That's dif­ see that there isn't only dle age and I'll sink into something. I just ferent than music or art. When expressing assume I'll over this one way, that changes eventually get I was in graduate school, I had a group of the ball game. trip and I'll go get my job friends that were incredible geniuses. It's and martinis and house and In lots of if my my my ways, unbelievable the minds that these people and car. watch what Dae money my you had and the information they took in and Soen Sa Nim does, he's Rhodes: Sorry, too late! the way they tried to analyze it and make always giving people There's a in that sense of it. Trying to describe how this Question: strong pull questions to shake them direction. world was and explain it somehow was up somehow. People are real enticing to me and incredibly excit­ Rhodes: Oh, sure the whole world is always holding on to ing. But what I noticed was that all of doing that and they're saying, "Come on some ideas about the these friends were miserable; they didn't have a good time I" think it should way they have their life in order. Their daily family You're not that's not be, or would like it to Question: saying lives were all disasters. The only time be. He's always trying going to happen to me, right? they were happy was when they were in to shake that There Rhodes: Well, somehow I doubt that will up. these high states of inspiration with ideas is a gate you have to go to you, I don't think it's they had, but meanwhile their lives were happen possible through to get anymore. I think it was disasterous. The guy that was the most Trungpa Riopoche and that is to who said "If ask me if should anywhere, brilliant of them all killed himself. people they say, "I don't know". practice or not, I tell them not to, because It was real tempting for me at first to The gate is to quit think­ once you start it's all overl" So, you're go that way, use this mind, be clever, fig­ ing that you know the better off with "Ignorance is Bliss", and if ure things out. But I thought there was way it is. That's not you ask me, don't start. If you have something wrong there, because some­ easy, in our culture started- forget it. If you wake up, what thing was separating them from the way we're not accustomed to can you do? I know for myself no matter this ideal world was and from getting that way. how hard practicing or facing my fears and in this world. For along functioning there is no other in town. because of might be, game Partly a long time I thought you had to forget in science One of the things that to us as my training about that, it was too crazy, you had to happens and rational and we more awake or more attention logic fight it, make it different and then maybe get pay to Lincoln Ji Do Nim is that we become more capable of hold­ going graduate Rhodes, Poep Sa you could figure it out. Then I met Dae I did some ing two views at the same time. We be­ school, nutty Soen Sa Nim. It was really interesting be­ There was one come of having things not things. cause the experience tapped the same capable in life when become contradictions. period my ing down the street one time and a van kind of thing. He talked about all kinds of it seemed that states of mind were strange came plowing through a crowd of people things and had all kinds of things to say Nuclear weapons are bad, terrible, hor­ very a lot of across the the no­ interesting. Perhaps people walking street, against about any subject, any time, anywhere. rendous, horrible- Yes, but they could have so I won't into experienced this, go walk sign, as people in New York do, and You get an idea of this incredible wis­ also be seen as a wonderful thing. They the details. One that experience really people, my friend and myself included, dom, this brilliant mind, so you want the make people say, wait a second, what's me was that helped during graduate had to literally jump out of the way to not same thing. For me, I got interested again, going on here? Maybe they're the best school I had a whose mother girlfriend get hit by this van. Right after we jumped and here was this person that could teach thing that ever happened to us? If we did had been in and out of mental hospitals we heard a loud thump! A man wearing a me. However, the more you listen to him not have them maybe we'd be out there for The mother was not in the years. hospi­ three piece suit and tie and carrying an the less he says. It's extraordinary; he with martinis, seeking the good life. You tal at this but was on particular time, umbrella had hit the van with his brief says all this stuff and then you go away don't have to decide. You don't have to medication and was at home. We used to case. He was really angry. The van and he didn't say very much at all- ex­ say bad or good or like or dislike, it's both see her mother, a remarkable screeched to a halt. The driver out of go quite got cept "pay attention, don't make any­ orit's neither and that can be OK. woman. When I met her she was sit­ just the van and proceeded to beat the guy with thing." I grew up in what may be described as ting in front of the TV, on various medica­ the briefcase to a pulp in the middle of One Zen master only used to say, the age of reason, science and logic and tions so she wouldn't have to be in the the street. All I could do was get a "Don't make anything exist that doesn't you had to have the answers to every­ hospital. policeman and even he didn't want to exist." That's all, very interesting 1 Just thing- there had to be yes, no, good, You'd be to her and sitting talking bad, like, not like. That was the way it would be fine for a while and everything was supposed to be for you and if it then she'd "Don't out into the whisper, go "I've many years trying to get wasn't then something was wrong. Then back there're out there" and spent yard, tigers you tried to find out what was wrong so "OK." And then she'd "I you'd go, say, back to in the and you could make it the way it was sup­ mean I've seen don't out just being room, it, them, go posed to be. Most people choose one there, you're not going to go out there, are perspective and then try to defend it or That was to that be OK." you?" really interesting me, having hold on to it. But your life does not have

she had altered states of con­ - definitely to be this way. Practicing "Don't Know" it. He called some other cars, and don't make that doesn't exist. sciousness. when I saw the stop anything But, actually is a wonderful way to learn how to accept came, but the driver of This mind is of of it was sad. I had to eventually they capable extraordinary pos­ reality it, incredibly life just as it is. Those human beings that the van had, in the meantime, beaten this sibilities. Then we don't know what exists experience that and see what the ramifica­ have been able to actualize their human man and smashed his more, what's this what's tions ofit were in life and up glasses. any mind, there, somebody's beingness are the people that could live what's somebody else's mind, what's how her family disintegrated. She's in the All this because someone hit his van with contradictions. them- we don't know. hospital now, talking about the tigers to with a brief case and he was mad at him. You can see clearly how suffering is anybody that will listen to her. She New York isn't any different than any caused by our desire, anger and ig­ other it's so concentrated with couldn't help herself, she couldn't change place, just When talk about our Question: you being norance, and how don't want to can walk and see people it; she was too far gone somehow to help people, you around that able to choose the Bodhisattva it path, see it, don't want to do anything about it- or was a stuff all the time. who live there herself change her karma. That People strikes a chord in me. I wonder if that is valuable experience, because it had been all the time, with all that happening, have continued on next page

. � ------�

12 pRIMARY pOINT June 1989

Altered States of Consciousness Rhodes: What is this I which we consider

alive or dead? What am I? We have a whole the continuedfrom page 11 Honoring Teacher, Honoring bunch of ideas about it, it's our image of us­ not but not too smart just keep suffering and fighting with each great looking, bad, pretty and sort of clever. We have this whole thing Each Other other. It has been this way for centuries. that we call by this name that we go by. And The little bit of history I've read is pretty we think:: I'm sort of a victim, or sort of help­ Ken Kessel evidence that it hasn't too by strong changed less, or I'm sort of not talented, or I'm sort of much and that we be it all over may doing stupid, or whatever. We have an image and a article out of a discussion at Part of the power of our practice is that it grew again. Maybe it's a difficult time right picture. Sometimes it gets frayed and we fix it is what we to it. the Kwan Urn Zen School Council choose make Entering the This now, but it may be a great time to help us up, try to acquire new skills for it. This is Dharma Room and bowing to Buddha could meeting this past December. There were put aside this trivial stuff that we're in­ something we're trying to keep alive and what be the act of to a statue. It also could praying Dae Soen Sa Nim means is: This is dead. questions about the implications of being volved with and into another arena Yes, be a reaffirmation of a commitment to get practic­ we do this, but that is not us and we need to more formal in the between a little more valuable. I un­ relationship in the clear and act of that is always ing by engaging simple rid of it. It's real and but in another student and teacher. We have a Teachers' get exists, a derstood that got old and died and "just bowing". Similarly, according degree people it doesn't. It's like the Dead of Dae Soen Sa Nim way Bogeyman! Group consisting of formal respect to the teacher might be a con­ got killed in car accidents, but it wasn't from day one. which and the Master Dharma Teachers, firmation of the hierarchical and possibly until it happened to me, and somebody sit­ meets regularly to discuss, clarify and patriarchal nature of the relationship. I could ting right there died while I was holding also choose to make it an to reaf­ decide matters of formal teaching. There opportunity them, that 1 really got it. You hear of such in to renew is an between the firm and reengage my practice, my ongoing dialogue things but if you experience them you get Teachers' and the While vow. Being aware of my weaknesses, my Group Council. a little dose of reality, and it's not just an desire, anger, and ignorance, I find value in the the Teachers' Group has ultimate respon­ idea forms of bowing, chanting, and sitting. Enter­ anymore. sibility for decisions about teaching, they ing into these forms, I become balanced and Question: But realistically isn't it all futile? inform and feedback from the Council get more able to to the forms of this give myself Rhodes: Realistically, if you want to be really CLASSIFIED AD in matters that affect that teaching. The world. realistic, what else can you do? I remember Carpenters needed- Opportunity to live, Teachers' Group has initiated some chan­ My teacher's role is to remind me to prac­ one time in my life I never would have im­ work & practice in a rural Zen Center. Some in the formalities of the ges relationships tice and to guide me and in so doing, to remind agined bringing a child into the world. It experience req'd- need help finishing log between student and and the teacher, me of the Dharma. For this, I am grateful. seemed like things were so crazy, I wouldn't cabins. $ including room & board negotiable. Council has concurred in the value of Thus, when I see my teacher, 1 bow to the have wished that on anyone. Since then, I have Contact: Mara Genthner at Lexington Zen these changes. This article will describe Dharma, to our own Buddha-nature, and a different way of looking at things. Yes, my Center 606(277-2438. renew sees is to have a lot of and two major changes, then will explore cor­ my practice. My teacher me, is daughter going suffering a A lot of because are responding questions and implications. reminded of teacher's responsibility, and joy. suffering things pret­ ty crazy but whatever you do for this child someone has done that for you. You know that your parents took care of you. But it is not "The was until do it that understand that intention that by requir­ you really you someone taught us how to go to the bathroom ing greaterformality, there would and where to go. This world would be a terrible place if be and thus we all decided not to bring children into it greater respect greater because it's not so nice, to spare them from it. It's also not an attitude that will PERCEIVE seriousness aboutpractice." contribute to the long term health of the planet. The best thing we can do is to try and do the best job so they will be better WORLD We will be the Master Dharma also bows to the Dharma. Why have a teacher? addressing than we were. You have to have have a Buddha statue? remind me prepared Teachers their Korean title, Ji Do Sa Why They by Poep both of those at the same time: of True Self. to teacher or to a things SOUND Nim, "Ji' means "to "Do" means my Bowing my point;" there is and and it's statue is, then, a selfish act. I do it for me, for suffering joy beauty; "way" or "path" as in the Chinese word "Tao". the Dharma, not for the teacher or the statue. all together. It's not just one or the other. In common Korean usage, "Ji Do" means a And if 1 then just bow, Buddha, Dharma, a map or guide; it literally means "Pointing the Before I heard about Zen, I had wonderful teacher, me, and the statue are There is Way." "Poep" means "Dharma"; "Sa" is gone. experience, kind of like someone answered a and at that moment is Zen an just bowing, my practice me. was a at "Teacher" or "Master," and "Nim" is for 1 graduate student M.I.T. Chanting full and renews itself. 1 bow and 1 find honorific article, appended to a title to show my and there was a professor there whose name Self. This is a model for to respect. This title, then, refers to one who is a giving myself fully was Houston Smith; he had written some Thus, 1 to guide to or provides a map ofthe Dharma. any relationship. give respect my books on religions. He showed a movie which Tape teacher for and at the same time for all The implication is that one teaches by ex­ myself, depicted an interview he had with Krishnamur­ ample, and, by the conduct of one's life, points beings. ti. He was a professor and an intellectual and Zen Master Seung Sahn and his stu­ the way of the Dharma. A rough equivalent To receive such respect is both a practice he sat there and asked questions and Krish­ dents have created a masterpiece of would be "Dharma Master." and a responsibility. Respectfully receiving namurti gave him answers. What intellectuals sound- clear and profound chanting such acts is a reminder of one's do when don't understand is with cuts our For formal introductions, as for talks, public respon­ they agree that through thinking minds it is both an and a the other and what said, brochures and ceremonies, we will refer to the sibilities; encouragement person repeat they've to stillness and compassion. This tape to The of teacher using synonyms so it sounds like they know teacher by their name plus "Ji Do Poep Sa goad practice. relationship includes the morning and evening and student is not hierarchical. what they're saying. Krishnamurti would say Nim," e.g., "Jacob Perl, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim." reciprocal, bell chants and regularly practiced Each receives, each and this mutual and exact and Houston (We it would be easier to use the gives; something precise chants recorded at thought " professionally recognition creates Sangha. In these acts, we would say "Yes, what you're saying is... and English name prior to the title.) Following the Sprague Hall, Yale University, both and recommit ourselves to our Krishnamurti would "No, that's not what spoken or written introduction it is fine to refer recognize say " own Buddha-nature, to the Dharma, and to the I'm ... This went on to the teacher simply by their name plus "Poep saying constantly during is to the interview and it made Professor Smith Sa Nim," or just by "Poep Sa Nim." When ad­ Sangha. Any formality subject Copies of these high quality tapes and abuse. Mutual and clear look foolish. Krishnamurti said, "What is dressing a teacher directly, as when asking a misinterpretation are available for $10.95 each and can of the of what we do love?" and Houston Smith said love is when a understanding purpose question during , it is also per­ be ordered by writing to the Kwan will allow us to use the forms of our two souls intertwine and merge...etc. Krish­ missible to simply address him or her as "Poep practice Urn Zen School, 528 Pound Rd., wisely. namurti said, "No! No! Love is desire and hate Sa Nim." Cumberland, RI 02864. and anger and joy and sex." When Houston Second, we will be according the Poep Sa Smith had said his beautiful thing I went for it, Nims appropriate respect in the Dharma I loved it. Then Krishnamurti wiped it out with Room. Thus, retreats, we will bow to during the truth. the teacher one time (before morning bows). Ken Kessel is a Senior Dharma Teacher Dae Soen Sa Nim "You are al­ After bows and after practice, the teacher will Question: says, and Abbot New Haven Zen Center. dead." I read this which ended leave the room first, while we stand with hands of ready poem with: "Dead from one." Do have folded. As always, both before and after inter­ day you any sense of this Dead one? views, the teacher sits with hands in hapchang, from day while the student does a full . This past year at ZMM you could have: One of the attractions of our school has *Engaged the daily schedule of meditation, chanting, work, been its relative Council members Zen at informality. art, body and study practice. Residential Training and Teachers were both concerned about *Recieved personal guidance from Zen teacher, Sensei whether these changes would adversely affect Daido Loori in private interviews and through talks, ZEN MOUNTAIN seminars, Dharma Combats and informal daily contact. the student-teacher relationship or people's *Challenged your practice through 12 week-long sesshins The intention was that practice. by requiring (silent meditation intensives held monthly.) MONASTERY greater formality, there would be greater a week in seclusion on a retreat. *Spent hermitage with Zen teacher & Director respect and thus greater seriousness about prac­ *Studied one-to-one with contemporary masters of the arts, Spiritual tice. martial arts and other relevant disciplines: Sensei Daido Loori Kazuaki Tanahashi (Sumi-e painting), Tzu Kuo Shih (Tai chi), Kanjuro Shibata John We were also concerned about the possibility Sensei (Kyudo: Zen Archery), Daido Loori Sensei (Zen Photography), David that increased formality would alienate teacher Reynolds (Constructive Living), Allen Ginsberg, Peter Matthiessen, and much more... ZEN MOUNTAIN and student. Here are some personal reflec­ MONASTERY In 19R9 the opportunities continue with one of the most comprehensive residential programs tions from of emanating my experience prac­ available. Residents ($500/mo) receive an additional $650 worth of retreat programs and P.O. Box 197PP, Mt. Tremper tice. experience a concentrated environment where each daily activity is devoted to self-realization. NY 12457 (914) 688-2228 Experience residency at Zen Mountain Monastery and open the door to transforming your life.