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ARY OINT PUBLISHED BY THE KWAN UM SCHOOL

VOLUME SIX, NUMBER ONE 528 POUND ROAD, CUMBERLAND, RI 02864 (401 )658-1476 JUNE 1989

ONE PERSON'S ENERGY HELPS ALL PEOPLE

An lnterview on Family and Practice with Seung Sahn home and for Primary Point (PP): In many families every morning evening, just ten minutes. Then, can sit for now, both the husband and wife have to maybe you with the children for a work. They also have children and social awhile, joining you few minutes. Husband and wife should responsibilities. How can the parents also do one hundred and eight bows every make a living, raise a family and still together. the have time to practice? day, Altogether, practice should take one hour every day. Zen Master Seung Sahn (Dae Soen Sa PP: How old should the children be? Nim): If you have children and both parents are working, it can be very dif­ DSSN: At least seven years old. Doing ficult to practice, especially if you live some kind of "Tanjien" practicing (i.e. outside of a Zen Center. So, some kind of breathing in and breathing out from together action practicing with children is "hara" - the area just below the navel) is necessary. Simple exercises like breathe very important. Then, their consciousness in, breathe out; hands up, hands down, becomes very clear. When children are like in Tai Chi; make a circle with your growing up, they cannot control their feel­ Robert Genthner, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim arms and breathe deeply. Children like ings. They often have only "I want" doing these kinds of exercises with their mind- anger mind. If you do breathing parents. You can do this together action at Ninth Student Receives Inka Altered States of Consciousness GETTING A ZEN STICK by Lincoln Rhodes, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim* by Robert Genthner, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim*

me. You don't realize it but you're Mind. It's if have a Lincoln Rhodes, Ji Do Poep Sa Nim, given At a ceremony held at Providence Zen very confusing- you and ways of When Zen I'll a Zen but if holds a PhD. in Biochemistryfrom Ml.T. taught seeing things. Center this past December, Robert stick, give you stick, realize there are other of don't I'll in­ Hehas been instrumental in the formation you ways seeing Genthner, ofLexington, Kentucky, be­ you have one, take it away. It centers things, that is, as soon as there's not just our It our of many Zen and groups around came the ninth student to receive formal terrupts thinking. interrupts logi­ one, it a whole different ball the country, and has lived and taught at opens up teaching authorityfrom Zen Master cal analytic discursive thinking. What game. It is very to know that there does that mean? That's the of the Providence Zen Centerfor many helpful Seung Salin. Bob is a long-time student of beginning is more than one to view a way things. don't know. To an of years. He currently owns and manages Zen under several teachers and a practic­ give you example That's a somehow. You Pa Ow's was a construction and home renovation busi­ necessary step ing psychotherapist. He and his wife, mind (he brilliant Zen don't have to know what all the ness. This article is composed ofselec­ ways are, , started the Lexington Zen Center in master), a monk came to him and asked but do know there isn't one tions from talks given during you just way 1982. Bob and members of the Lexington him "what is the water of Pa Cho Moun­ to see. tain." was named after the 1983-85 at the New Haven Zen Center. have purchased a large piece of (He mountain.) And Pa Cho I was shocked because I had all land in that Doe Soen Sa Nim said, "Warm in the winter, was talking about using quite Kentucky cool in the summer." He had an incredib­ this as a scientist. I while has christened as a retreat it is Someonedrugs to open your consciousness. I training thought major site; I was it that the reason an ly clear, non-analytic, non-logical mind. think the evidence is overwhelming that doing you do it is rapidly becoming important gathering He saw the essential nature of to discover some ultimate truths about the the This talk ex­ things. most of this planet is in an altered state of place/or sangha. is universe and the are. I a talk at or consciousness already and our job is to way things So, cerptedfrom pzc after the In Zen talk, the stick is symbolic of went about to do that. 10 and find out what's it like to not be in an al­ trying Then, ceremony. Excerptsfrom the formal Dhar­ represents our true nature, our essential behold, I discovered that there are all ma Combat encounters that nature. all of us who have come here tered state of consciousness. I grew up traditionally And, these controversies about the ultimate 03- the ink or in common and my family wasn't too much different precede granting of a, teaching today have something with Pa can be on he's our than any other family, I had a rather set authority, found page 6. Cho, ancestor. We also have in way of seeing things that was given to (continued on page 11) issues of giving and taking, and of common this way seeking mind. Nobody is here accident. All of us are here Thegenerosity appear regularly in our by out of some some practice. I was reading recently in the Mu together question, and is our ancestor Mun Kwan. Case 44 is a case called Pa wonderment, this who is to if a r�I;���i'pi���%@Yp���l was saying us, you have Zen stick, if Cho's Zen Stick. Pa Cho Korean, i:;� you have essential nature, if you have true '11111 NATIVE TRADmON IN UNFOLDING SANGHA and he went from Korea to China travel­ I will a Zen I will KOREAN ZEN ing around and then he met his teacher nature, give you stick, By Bodhin Kjolhede Sensei...... 9 a If II:!! il�1 and later became a great Zen Master in give you good beating. Whap! you don't have true if have China. The case goes like this: "If you nature, you empti­ is or have a Zen stick, I will give you a Zen ness, everything blankness, , I'll take it from So, it's not rest­ I stick. If you don't have a Zen stick, I will away you. I E���;�:�;�:::;:;�:::::� on Not not- H;:;7i;;;:�;2��::ow either/or. take it away." Some of you who came for ing having, having. .... 12 Not in some interviews this morning worked on some resting conceptual perspec­ ��:::d�:' tive. Life isn't that Our life is I ::=a':RLD .;:;:n�s;��;:���� I kong-ans that are like this. The wonderful simply way. fi r INFORMATION.•••.....•.••••.••.•••••.•.14 % Our Readers Respond.•••.•..•..•.•.•.•.•.••.8 W gift that Pa Cho gives us is Don't Know ���::::::::::::�;:;::::::::::::�:::::::::::::::::::::::::::�::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;:;:;:::;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:::;:;:;:::::;:;:::;:::::::::;:::::;:::;:::::::;:;:::::::::::;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:::;:;:;:;:::;:;:�:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::�::�::::*::::::::�:!�::::::ili�

* See page 12 for an explanation of this new title for Master Dharma Teachers 6 pRIMARY pOINT June 1989

a Zen Stick bows a and if do 500 bows for a Getting day) you That's all technique is, any kind of Question: So, how do I practice with a or few days you realize that kind of continuedfromfrontpage couple technique, any kong-an, kong-an? bowing is just bowing and that what kind of . In ��?*#,%1&:�if.f.::'42:r{:?�j:*�j:ljtl���f.��?:;rt.:;:�t�;�fi:;:;�&��j��;��:r:;:�;:;: any Japanese style Genthner: Sit with that question. Let constant moment by moment by moment we're bowing to is our true nature. Your Zen, Mu is the first and kong-an given yourself be a furnace, and let it burn up by moment. So if you have a Zen stick, if true nature and my true nature are not dif­ sit with All you just MU. that is is don't everything. Let the burn off all if bow to I bow to question you have essential nature, already you ferent. So, you me, know. That's the essence of not pure knowing. And then..."Oh, of course!", have lost your life. You know, you you. If I bow to you, you bow to me. It doubt. So knowing. Big question, great just give ourselves to not knowing. The deserve a good beating because you're wall is white, the floor is brown, the stuck in that. And if you don't have it, cushion is blue. Just like this. When not then you're stuck in some kind of empti­ knowing, the mind stops and there is ness. realization of what's going on in the mo­ the of this is to see So, point ment. So if you're sitting there and you through that, seeing through having and have don't know mind, from whatever not and not having, seeing through being source, then an answer will appear. and down to what Dae being coming You'll be able to see through the kong-an Soen Sa Nim calls And all of just doing. and an answer will appear. That's the our all of our can be practice, Zen, second step. The first step of the kong-an reduced to that Just do it. simple phrase, is to teach don't know. The second step is Moment moment moment. Just do by by to teach correct function. So, you enter it. Putting aside any idea, putting aside the kong-an with don't know mind, then aside any hope, putting any expectation, an answer appears. just do it. Our teaching goes, when you're One important kong-an is "Nam driving, just drive, when you're eating Cheon Kills a Cat", Case 14 in the Mu eat, when listen, just you're listening just MunKwan. when you are thinking just think and when you're talking just talk. And that is Once the monks of the Eastern and Western halls were about a cat. our life. And a Zen Master or Ji Do Poep disputing Sa Nim or a Dharma Teacher is no dif­ Master Nam Cheon holding up the cat ferent from you. Nothing special. So said, "You! Give me one word and I will having a Zen stick, already you fall into save this cat! Ifyou cannot, I will kill it!" the mud. Not having a Zen stick, already at the same time. Within when sit in don't happens that, you great doubt, know, No one could answer. Finally Nam fall into the mud. What can do? you you there is a certain respect for teachers that then mu, shikantaza, mantra, kong-an are Cheon killed it. Even in this moment when I ask that ques­ we want to communicate. Yes, this is my all the same. When we are thinking about In the evening when Joju returned tion, one can feel in the group a collective teacher. There's a receptivity we want to it, when we're deciding about it, they're from outside, Nam Cheon told him of the kind of not knowing. What can you do? allow. different. So then you have mu, you have incident. Joju took offhis shoe, put it on And it's almost palpable. What? This mo­ shikantaza, you have but it's all So, you walk into the room and you kong-an, his head and walked Nam Cheon the away. ment. Just (HIT! He hits the floor with the same. When you come in and you bow and they bow back. If you can let go said, had been there, I could have Just moment "Ifyou Zen stick). this (HIT). bow, your is don't know. All com­ of greater than or less than, of better and bowing saved the cat." (laughter) (HIT) Can you find a good back to that one this worse, then bowing is making love. It's ing point, just point Nam Cheon cat answer? Just this one (HIT) held up the and said, only giving. It's a tremendous gift. Then (HIT). point always. must be dis­ "if any of you monks can say one word Question: For me, there's a feeling of spe­ it's a privilege. It's not "I bow because of Ultimately, every technique then I'll save the but if I'll cialness. And I don't if it's because carded. It's a vehicle, a raft. cat, you can't, know their superiority." You come from your cut him in two". And no one could say of bowing, prostrations, teachers, and own strength- a wonderful humility, or anything, so Nam Cheon cuts the cat in masters, I think "special", and I make it clarity, and just bow. So, bowing is an special, or if there really is a certain tradi­ empowerment. An expression of true self. tion of specialness or respect for a certain That's the strength of the bow. reason having to do with the practice. One time we had just finished the Genthner: I can tell own ex­ you my Dharma room on this special land that we Thefollowing are some excerptsfrom the RG: How can I help you? perience with that. The first Zen sitting I have in Lexington and Dae Soen Sa Nim traditional Dharma Combat which public Q: Thank you very much for your teach­ ever did was at Dai Bosatsu Zendo in the was getting ready to leave and I turned precededRobert Genthner's certification Catskills with Eido ing. Roshi, many years just in time to watch him bow. He was so as Ji Do Poep Sa Nim. ago. I was married at that time to a himself. He was completely giving Question (Q): Oftentimes in his teaching, woman who was very strongly against to the Buddha and he was so com­ Q (Bob's wife, Mara): Today is your Ji bowing Dae Soen Sa Nim quotes Descartes: "I and so was , my going very in it that it startled me. To this day Do Poep Sa Nim certification ceremony. pletely think, therefore I am," then poses the much a movement from a kind of away I can feel that image in my whole body of Thus you have many jobs now- teacher, question: "If you don't think, then what?" confluence I had with her. But still there his himself to that father, husband... Which one is most im­ just completely giving So, I ask you, If! don't think, then what? was some I of that feeling that carried moment. That's what our bowing is­ portant? Do Sa Nim with me. At Dai Bosatsu the Bud­ Robert Genthner, Ji Poep Zendo, giving ourselves to that moment. A RG: You already understand. (He leans dha Hall is different from the Meditation (RG): You already understand. privilege. over and kisses his wife.) Hall and the Zendo. The Buddha Hall is Q: SO, I ask you.

RG: Are you thinking? Q: In one ofDae Soen Sa Nim's letters to Q: Sometimes. you can let go than or a student he said, "Good and bad karma "If ofgreater RG: So, what? wind around our true self and get tight." So, I ask How do out of this less better and then Q: Thank you for your teaching. you: you get than, of worse, good and bad karma coil? RG: You already understand. is love." Q: Somebody once asked an eminent bowing making I ask teacher what the difference was between Q: SO, you. psychotherapy and Zen. His answer was RG: Just sitting here, talking with you. where the Roshi gives teisho. You have to an hour." What's answer? Question: It always sounds very con­ "about $75 your Q:No. it to to the and go through get Zendo, to me that sometimes there is tradictory RG: You already understand. more? there's this wooden Bud­ RG: You want huge gold-leafed mantra, sometimes there is empty mind, in Q: SO, I ask you. dha that you have to bow to, order to sometimes there is thinking about . Q: Not enough. I the I did get to the Zendo. And remember RG: Yesterday psychotherapy, RG: chases bone. Genthner: Which one do you like? Dog first time confronting it, and I had seen today I sit and talk with you. Q: Thank you for your Buddhas in and there was Question: That simple? teaching. huge pictures, Q: Is that the difference? an attendant there guiding me, and we Genthner: Of course, if you like one, try RG: You want more? went and he said "Bow." I could feel it. In our school we teach not to hold the Q: There's a dispute in the sangha and the out of some Q: I want more. myself resisting bow, kong-an. For instance, if you're into this half of your students say they 'Illeave if idea. What am I some bowing to, idol, kong-an: If you have a Zen stick I'll give RG: $75, please. you take a certain action; the other half some false god? And, of course, my you one, If you don't have a Zen stick I'll 'Illeave if don't take that ac­ Q: Thank you for your teaching. say they you mind was "What would checking saying, take it away- not to hold that but rather tion. What can you do? my wife think if she could see me bowing to allow the doubt of that. It's called RG: You already understand. to this Buddha?" We don't bow much to Hwadu, Great Doubt, or Don't Know Q: Dae Soen Sa Nim says Zen means be­ Q: I ask you. anything in the West, we have this kind of ("Don't Know" is Dae Soen Sa Nim's coming independent. But the Heart independent spirit. "I won't bow." name for hwadu). You put the doubt right says "all Buddhas depend on Prajna RG: Bye, bye. in Hara and let it Paramita." What do on? As you practice Zen more and more your permeate your you depend Q; Thank you for your teaching.

cell. What? ...Don't know. (we do 108 bows in the morning as you every RG: You already understand. and some do 500 and know, people 1,000 Q: No, I don't understand. June 1989 pRIMARY pOINT 7 had been course. two. That's That's a wife quite sick before the what do you do? Feed them, of compassion. kong-an Genthner: So, when you bend over and that to The is, delivery, and we had considered strongly That's making a choice, and that's points compassion. question get hit with the stick, what's that like? to if were there how would save the going the hospital. When she started to making a discrimination, hunger vs. not­ you you What's your experience? have started to a but we know what to do out of cat? So, the first part is "Oh, don't know"; contractions, things get hunger, Question: Nothing. little a little mind this out not then out of our don't know comes some crazy, panicky. My primary point, of clarity, from Genthner: You don't feel would we should have some idea or some or some . compassion, some realization- "Oh, of Nothing? any­ go: "Maybe gone opinion You can't feel it at all? to the and then her mind would for me. There is this course". We put aside our ideas, we put thing? hospital", egocentric intention, "This is me." And we would "First there is a then aside our sense of self, we put aside our Question: I feel it alright. go: killing phrase, mountain, kind of Then no a sense of because that's what have this tension. letting go there is mountain, then there is separation, Genthner: You feel what? You feel the the kong-an is about: the monks of the of that thought, I would come back to her mountain." So, first there is good and Hit, yeh. So, when somebody hits you, east the monks of the west­ breathing and we would breathe together, bad, then there is no good and bad, then dormitory, what can do? What do do? you you in me that's our minds divided. just breathing and breathing out, and there is good and bad again. Let ask So, coming OUCH! huh? that. Only seemed to and absolute­ a This first and together, putting aside our separation, an everything settle, you question. good bad, what needed to be and the second and bad- are answer appears, and when you ly good they done was clear. Not the same or different? 'get that answer from your prac­ by some kind of tice then the realization of cor­ making Question: My first response is "no", but conscious rect function becomes yours. analytic really I don't know. I was first don't know. Then cor­ choice where So, Genthner: "Don't know' is wonderful. rect situation, and saying, "Oh, I should relationship And that's the mind to keep- don't correct function. the do this, I should do Always know. What is this? So I'm that-let's boil water." giving you kong-an points, direction for us. back your question. It's a wonderful ques­ You know they always Question: I 'm doing mantra tion, it's a vital and I don't want boil water. But it be­ question, and it's a heavy mantra so it to answer it in the sense of coming to .!l came abso lutely clear, takes a long time to say it, and conclusion about it or it. I want to and the whole solving I I'm process get headache. supposed give it back to you. What is this: was a dance that un­ good to do a certain number. I've and bad, dualism, and down, and folded. That's not up right given up that. Is it ok to do it left- what does this mean? It's a wonder­ making a choice- Ok, for awhile and then not do it ful question. It's the bone of our practice. now push, now relax­ for a while? Maybe I can say a few things about it, but but just being with the Genthner: first ex­ don't let me make a conclusion for you, My very process, and the mantra don't let me wrap it up. Keep that ques­ perience doing practice unfolding happens. was that it was like Furnace Zen Center Dharma Room tion alive; it's a wonderful one. chewing When you hear in Zen that when first do it gum, you "Don't make near parlance there's a lot of flavor, and then Lexington, Kentucky. anything," or "Don't it stale. I think the stale- gets make good and bad," ness arises out of the quality Question: Sometimes we are taught the what that's pointing to is not imposing of attention. If you're doing your mantra great round mirror has no likes or dis­ some kind of will on the situation, but al­ and it's down here in you hara then your likes, and other times I've heard dharma lowing. And when you allow, then cor­ Contrib utions mantra is doing you. But if you're up in teachers say stop making good and bad. rect function appears, out of some clarity, your head and you're thinking your But the idea has come up recently that in out of some realization of primary point. Wanted for mantra then you get headaches. making this place, people had to choose Then, if somebody comes who's hungry, Next Issue Question: But I think I do it down there. the materials that they used. They had to choose better or worse materials. Some­ Genthner: So, you stop doing it down What are the most potent used his wisdom to there, and let it do itself down there. Then body discriminating We :Need Your ways of presenting Zen choose what to or Help who could get a headache? they're going do, teaching in contemporary decide how to put things together. Would Question: What is the significance of get­ Kwan Urn Zen School needs a culture? How are traditional you talk about the difference between ting hit with the stick? laser for forms changing? These when opinion leaps out and makes good good quality printer will be considered in Genthner: Have you ever gotten hit with and bad, and when it's discriminating wis­ our computer system. If you subjects the stick? October'S "Sounds of the dom? know of a used one for a World -- Our Readers Question: No, ... once, at the end. only Genthner: With our third child, my wife reasonable price or would like Respond" feature, Please send Genthner: What is the significance? had the baby at home and I was the coach to make a specified donation your thoughts and That's I'm and the principal deliverer. We had no Question: what asking. towards one, please call the of­ to doctor. There was a midwife but she left experiences Primary Genthner: You've gotten hit with the fice. We are also looking for Point, Kwan Urn Zen School, us pretty much on our own. I had never stick, right? You bend over, and whack, skilled with Pound delivered a baby before. I was for editing help 528 Road, whack. present our middle child's birth but the doctor transcriptions and especially Cumberland, RI 02864, or But what does it mean? Question: Why? was in charge. So here I was without any articles for Primary Point. call 401-658-1476, experience, without any knowledge. My

life, The authentic voice of women vibrantly connected with spiritual practice and daily In this remarkable book, a brilliant contemporary Zen Master demonstrates his' simplified Includes Bhikshuni Ane Perna Chodron; Ruth Denison; Maurine Myo-On Freedgood, Roshi; approach to kong-ans and returns vitality, humor and clarity to this vastly misunderstood Toni Gesshin Prabhasa Dharma, Roshi; Dr, Joanna Macy; jacqueline Schwartz Mandell; teaching technique, Ten kong-ans, culled from a collection of 1750, have been selected and il­ 'Packer; Barbara Rhodes, Master Dharma Teacher; and Jan Chozen Soule, Sensei. Plus panel lustrated through Zen Master Seung Sahn's worldwide correspondence with students. discussions and a list of 50 recommended books, 139 pages, 12 photographs, $10.95 ,ISBN 0-942795-01-6

86 pages, 23 photographes, $9,95 ISBN 0,942795-00-8 ten yates A GATHERING OF SPIRIT The Kong-An Teaching of Women Teaching in American Buddhism ZEN MASTER SEUNG SAHN � I

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____Ten $.50 ea. add'i Also available throughPrimarv Point Press: Gates'($10.9S) $1.50/copy, copy Overseas: $2.00 ____Only Don't Know ($7.95) surface--$3.00, Ashes on the Buddha: The of Zen Master Sahn ea. add'i copy. Ainnail-$7.50, Dropping Teaching Seung ____Gathering of Spirit "'$9.95) $3.00 ea add'i A irreverent and hilarious record of the encounters of Zen Master Sahn and copr. delightful, often Seung his Americcan Dropping Ashes on the Buddha ($10.95) students, Consisting of stories, formal Zen interviews, Dharma speeches, and the Zen Master's spontaneous interac­ tions with his students, (Grove Press, 1976) $10,95 My check for $, is enclosed. Allow 3·5 weeks for delivery.

Don't Know-The Letters of Zen Master Seung Sahn A collection of letters from the cor­ Only Teaching lVame _ respondence between Western students and Zen Master Seung Sahn, the first Korean Zen Master to live and teach in a human the West. Contains rich s�lection of letters representing the f�ll range of concerns-about love, relation­ Address _ ships, work, suffering-and the response of a brilliant keen-eyed Zen Master. (Four Seasons Foundation, 1982) $7,95

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